Podcasts about katie it

“These girls level me up,” says Katie of Mandy and Jenny, her friends and co-hosts of Moms Night Out, a podcast for ambitious women looking for advice, motivation and real conversation. Corinne Morahan, host of the Get Organized for Good podcast, was recently a guest on Moms Night Out, and today, she returns the favor catching up with the women to see how they are getting organized as part of her Grid + Glam membership. Katie, Mandy and Jenny discuss the life-altering changes they've made, what aspect has been easiest and the most difficult, how their husbands and kids have been adapting—or not—and share  advice for other moms looking to get organized, too.    Learn which step in the process that Katie calls a game-changer and which part was hardest for Mandy to surrender control of. Learn what Jenny is most hopeful about. The three women will discuss their favorite parts of Corinne's systems and frameworks as well as the importance of consistency, accountability and community.    Whether you're naturally organized like Katie and Mandy or less so like Jenny, you'll find stories, emotions and hilarious moments that you can relate to. Join today's episode to learn how to get in on the fun.  _______________   Jenny, Katie + Mandy are the hosts of the hilariously relatable podcast, a Moms Night Out. MNO is a podcast for ambitious women who want a one-stop-shop for advice and conversation.   MNO covers topics including families, careers, friendship, pop culture, and also has inspiring interviews, like the one with yours truly. Jenny, Katie and Mandy are champagne-loving working moms who will win you over with their honesty and candor.    Quotes “Hardest was getting my husband on board…he is not organized and it's been really hard to get him on board…I said to him, ‘This is important to me and this is important for my mental health. I'm a better mom when our house is in order. I'm more fun…I'm not running around stressed. So, that is still the hardest for me is getting him fully on board and really getting him to lean in with me.” (18:53 | Katie) “It took a few weeks  for it to become a habit for me and now I just do it. I don't think about it; I don't dread it. It's just something I do before I go and sit down after dinner and kids and bed and all those things.”(20:31 | Jenny) “Hardest part was letting my kids do more because I feel like I was always just cleaning up because it was going to be quicker and things went where they needed to go. But my kids are old enough now, they're five and seven, and they know the different bins and, ‘Legos go in this one or Barbies in this one,' and I just wasn't letting them do that. So, this made me think, ‘Actually, get the kids involved. They can do it,' and they do it pretty well.” (21:12 | Mandy)   Links Connect with Moms Night Out Hosts: You can listen to the Moms Night Out podcast by clicking here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/moms-night-out/id1709587885 Follow Moms Night Out here: https://www.instagram.com/momsnightoutmno?igsh=MXhwMXl1NDNoenJ5Ng==   To join the free "New Year, New Clarity: Organize Your Life in 2025" experience happening TODAY, please sign up here: https://www.gridandglam.com/new-year-new-clarity   Connect With Corinne: https://www.gridandglam.com/ https://www.corinnemorahan.com/ https://www.instagram.com/gridandglam/ https://www.instagram.com/corinnemorahan/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/corinnemorahan/ https://www.facebook.com/gridandglam https://www.youtube.com/@gridandglam1 Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Katie is a newborn and family photographer based out of Chicago. After going through IVF, Katie was surprised to find out that her first pregnancy was with identical twins. At 33 weeks, she had an unexpected bleed and then another at 35 weeks. Because of placental abruption, she went straight to a Cesarean and her babies were in the NICU for 7 days.Katie wanted to know what a singleton pregnancy and VBAC birth could be like. She found a supportive midwife group through her local ICAN chapter that had around a 90% VBAC success rate! She also hired a doula. As her due date approached, Katie decided to opt for membrane sweeps to avoid a medical induction starting at 38+6 weeks.After four membrane sweeps over the course of two weeks, spontaneous labor began. She arrived at the hospital and her sweet baby was born vaginally just 5 hours later!Though she said she has a low pain tolerance, Katie's VBAC was unmedicated and she also shares her experience with a retained placenta and a second-degree tear. Katie, that is no small feat-- we know you are an absolute warrior and woman of strength!How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome to the show, Katie. Thank you so much for being here with us. You guys, Katie is from Chicago, right? Chicago. Katie: Yep. Meagan: She is an IVF mama. She's got three girls. She is a girl mom and two identical twins and then a baby girl. How old is your baby girl now? Katie: She's going to be 3 months tomorrow. Meagan: 3 months so still little tiny. Oh my gosh. I love it. So yeah, and then you guys, when she's not doing the mom thing with all of her girls, she is also a newborn and family photographer which is awesome. Can you share with us your handle so we can come follow you?Katie: Yeah. On Instagram, I'm at katiemichellestudios. Meagan: Okay, katiemichellestudios and we are going to make sure to have that in the show notes so you can go follow her and follow her amazing work. And if you're in Chicago and you need newborn or family photos, hit her up. Is there a specific– Chicago is big. Is there a specific area that you serve?Katie: I'm in the northwest suburbs but I do in-home sessions wherever. I use a studio in Oak Park. Meagan: Okay, awesome. Then with your stories today, we've got a couple of highlights. We have IVF, placental abruption, and sticky placenta. I'm excited to talk about sticky placenta for sure because it's not something a lot of people talk about that could happen. Then, of course, the twins and all of that. We are going to get into that but I do have a Review of the Week. You guys, I know every single week I know you are probably sick of me asking but I love your reviews. Thank you so much for your reviews and remember, we always accept your reviews. Okay, this is from cassie80. It says, “Extremely educational and super empowering.” It says, “After a traumatic C-section in 2016, on my research journey about VBAC, I came across this podcast and instantly fell in love.” You guys, that just says something to me. 2016 is when she had her C-section and 2018 is when this podcast started. It's crazy to think that it's been going for so long but I'm so grateful for all of you guys sharing your stories like you, Ms. Katie, and helping this continue. It says, “I am currently trying for number two and am on a mission to VBAC. Hearing all of these wonderful stories of strength has given me the confidence that I can do it when the time comes. You and all of the women who courageously share their stories are just amazing. You all provide healing and support for all of us mamas.” Thank you so much, Cassie, and I'm so glad that you are here with us and have been with us for so long. Okay, Katie. Thank you again for being here. Katie: Thank you so much. I am so excited to be on this podcast myself because I listened to you guys nonstop my entire pregnancy even before and I always had it in the back of my mind that, Oh, if I get my VBAC, I'm going to come on here and tell my story. I am super excited and thank you for having me. Meagan: Oh my gosh, thank you so much. Let's talk about these twins. Let's talk about that birth. Katie: Yes. They were IVF but they were obviously surprise identical twins. My embryo split into obviously identical twins but they were an interesting pregnancy because usually with IVF, the twins are mono-di which means they share a placenta and have two sacs but my girls are actually di-di so they had two placentas, two sacs, so that meant they were a little bit less of a risky pregnancy and a vaginal birth was a possibility. That's what I was planning on. Everything was pretty smooth up until 33 weeks which is when I had my first bleed. It was just the middle of the night. I got up and I just started gushing. The doctor said that it was a marginal placental abruption. That means it was on the edge of the placenta and it wasn't a risk to them. Obviously, it was super scary. I thought that I was going to lose them both but everything with them was fine. They sent me home after a few days at the hospital. They just told me to take it easy, but they said it might happen again. It did at 35 weeks and 3 days. I had another bleed. At that point, they said, “They are almost to term for twins.” It's technically 37 or 38 weeks is when they like to induce for twins so they just said not to risk going any further and let's just get them out right now. I was planning on a vaginal birth, but because of that abruption and we didn't know what state the placenta was in and what would happen if there was an induction process that was started, so with the doctors, we decided I didn't want to risk induction and then needing a C-section anyway for the other twin so we did the C-section. It was a really, really rough recovery and they were in the NICU for a week. One of them needed breathing support and the other one was there for growing and feeding. Meagan: How big were they?Katie: 5 pounds, 3 ounces, and 4 pounds, 13 ounces. Meagan: Okay, okay. Katie: They were a good size. They were overall healthy but it was for me, super duper rough as a first-time mom to twins especially. The breastfeeding journey was really hard. I dealt with low milk supply and they were so tiny that it was hard for them to latch so I ended up exclusively pumping for 11 months. That's their story. Meagan: Wow. That's a lot of work by the way for someone maybe who hasn't pumped a lot. Holy cow. Good job. Katie: Yeah. So when we decided to have a third which was a tough decision for us, my husband was not on board. We ended up deciding that we wanted to experience what it's like to have a singleton baby and just having a singleton pregnancy hopefully and a VBAC. I definitely knew that I wanted a VBAC and started doing all my research. I found a very VBAC-supportive midwife group in my area. They have a 90-something percent VBAC rate in the hospital which is crazy. Meagan: Wow, yeah. That's amazing. What do you think they do so differently that a lot of other groups don't do that makes them so successful? Or are you going to share about it?Katie: I'm not sure. I think the hospital might be part of it, like the hospital policies might be more supportive. They deliver at Evanston Hospital if anyone is interested. Overall, I think the doctors that they work with because it's a midwife group that they work alongside doctors that when there is a delivery for the midwives, the doctors are also in the hospital. I think the doctors are also very VBAC-supportive so I think that helps when they are working together. Meagan: Yes, absolutely. Katie: That's that story. Meagan: So you found them. You found the providers. Did you go and ask them questions? How did you feel like you realized that they were supportive? Katie: Yeah. I went on– what's that group that have a Facebook group all around the country for different areas about lowering the C-section rate?Meagan: Oh, cesareanrates.org? Katie: I'm not sure. They are an organization. Meagan: Oh, ICAN?Katie: ICAN, yes. I went on my local Facebook group for ICAN and I asked around. I got their info. I first went for an appointment with one of the doctors at that practice before I was even pregnant because I was planning for the transfer and I liked that doctor, but then I realized that they have midwives and people really raved about the midwives. They said if you are looking for a more holistic experience and they spend more time with you than the doctors do. I just decided to go that route and somehow picking the midwives made me dive into the whole unmedicated birth side of things as well. I ended up hiring a doula as well. I never thought I'd be someone interested in unmedicated birth. I consider myself to have very low pain tolerance. Meagan: So tell us more about the birth. You have a low pain tolerance but you did go unmedicated?Katie: Yes. I ended up doing it. Meagan: Okay. Did you go into spontaneous labor?Katie: Yeah, it was interesting. I ended up having four membrane sweeps which is not that spontaneous. Meagan: Well, hey. This is the thing. A lot of people ask about membrane sweeps and sometimes people feel, Hey, this is worth it. Let's do this. Some people don't. Sometimes it works and sometimes it takes many and sometimes it doesn't. It's whatever feels right. So do you remember where you were with the first membrane sweep cervical-wise and how many weeks and things like that? Katie: Yeah, so I wanted to start them. Remember, I had never been pregnant past 35 weeks. Meagan: Right, yeah. Katie: I really thought that I was going to have an early baby again, but that really wasn't the case. I had her at 40 and 5. So the membrane sweep, I started the first one at 38 and 6 so basically at my 39-week appointment. I had no change after that one. Nothing happened. That's kind of what I assumed would happen so I had another one the next week at 39 and 6 and at that point, I was 2 centimeters, 80% effaced, and -1 station. Meagan: Okay, so pretty good cervical statistics there for a membrane sweep. Katie: Yeah. So then it was my due date and I was starting to feel more pressure. The mucus plug was coming out and baby was acting super active which I heard can happen close to when a baby is ready to be born but nothing really happened at that point. So then I decided to get my third sweep. I think that was 40+2 and at that point, I was 2.5 centimeters but the same for everything else. But things were starting to happen. I was having more stuff come out and I was like, Oh my gosh. How much longer am I going to be pregnant? Meagan: I'm sure. This is the thing. When you had either preterm or just early deliveries before and then you go past that, it feels like, No. I cannot be pregnant longer than this. This is eternity. Katie: Yes. It was really hard because I had the two-year-old twins also. It was getting to be a real mental and physical struggle. Meagan: Yes. Yeah. Katie: Also, I was doing pumping to try to induce labor and that wasn't doing anything. Meagan: Yeah. Was it causing contractions at all or was it just causing them and then you'd stop and it would stop?Katie: Yeah, basically it would just cause the Braxton Hicks contractions and nothing else. Meagan: Then it would go away. Katie: Yeah. So I had my third sweep and that one really started to do something because I went into prodromal labor which was a doozy. Meagan: Yeah. You know, that can be a risk of trying a membrane sweep. It can cause some prodromal labor but again, a lot of the time, prodromal labor still does stuff. It's tiring and it's exhausting but it's still doing something. Katie: Yeah, and it definitely did for me. My prodromal labor was a nighttime thing. The sun would go down. I'd put the kids to bed and it would start with irregular contractions. It felt like period cramps then I wouldn't sleep all night with that. I had that for two nights and then I was finally– Meagan: Typical prodromal. Katie: Then it would go away during the daytime. Meagan: It's so annoying. It's like, seriously? Fine. If you're going to do prodromal, at least do it during the day when I'm awake but don't take away my sleep. Katie: I know. At that point, I was getting super disheartened. I decided to schedule my induction because if this was going to happen every night, I would have zero energy for this VBAC. I did schedule my induction for 41 and 3 I believe if I made it to that point but I decided to go back and get my fourth membrane sweep June 3rd so the day before she was born. That started something. The midwife was like, “Okay, if I do this, I might see you back here later tonight.” Meagan: That's a promising thing to hear. Katie: Yeah, so once she did that sweep, I was actually already 4.5 centimeters dilated. That prodromal labor was doing something. Meagan: Um, 100%. Katie: Yep. That morning I had that sweep. We went to get lunch. We walked around. I was starting to right away have contractions and these were during the day so I knew something was up. By 4:00 PM that day, I was feeling it. I was starting to need counterpressure and had to stop what I was doing. Based on what the doula had said, that was when I should call them. I texted her and I told her, “I'm having these contractions that I'm having to stop and breathe through but they are still 10 minutes apart so I don't know what's going on.” She's like, "Okay. I think you need to stay home a little longer. You're probably not in active labor yet.” I'm like, "No, I think I'm there. Things are really intense.” Despite what she said, I headed to the hospital.It's a good thing I did because by the time I arrived at 10:00 PM, I was already 6.5 centimeters. Meagan: Okay, nice. Katie: I was very surprised because usually what the doula community says is sometimes when you head to the hospital when you are not in active labor, things can slow down because of the change of scenery and yeah, your body just shuts down. But in my case, it actually was the reverse. I went from super irregular contractions to walking up to the hospital doors and they started coming super regularly like 2-3 minutes apart. Yeah. Meagan: I do feel like the opposite can also happen where our body gets to that final destination and it's like, Okay. You can do this now. You have this sense of release. What you were saying, yes I've seen that too where the mom has to reacclimate to the space and labor stalls a little bit then it goes on, but this one it sounds like it was the opposite where it maybe brought you relaxation and safety. Katie: Yeah. I think maybe part of it was that this hospital experience was so different than my last one. At the last one, it was rushing to the hospital while I'm bleeding. I get there and there's this rush of nurses. Everyone's checking me and this time, I waddled up to the hospital. The room was dark. There was one nurse checking me in. I'm just chilling on the bed. I was just relaxed. I think a lot of the things that I did with the doulas to prepare, like they did classes about comfort measures and things like that and I was really trying to use those. I got the twinkle lights set up and got the music so that really helped. By 1:00 AM, I was already feeling the urge to push and I was feeling so much pressure, especially in my butt. I needed counterpressure for every single contraction up to that point then I was like, “No more counterpressure.” I was screaming for my husband to stop doing it because it was starting to hurt. I knew that something was happening. I was on my side trying to get some rest in between and I was starting to give up at that point. I know what they say is when you are starting to give up, you're starting transition. Meagan: You're right there. Katie: For me, I was thinking, I need an epidural right now. Meagan: A lot of people do though. A lot of people are like, “I can't do this anymore. I'm done. That's that. I need that epidural. I need relief now.” Katie: Yep. I hadn't had a check since I was admitted. It had been about 5 hours since I showed up or 4 hours since I showed up to the hospital so I was like, This can't be it. I can't be ready to push because I've only been here 4 hours and it's my first labor. I was in disbelief but I was like, “I need a check right now because if I'm not close to pushing, I'm getting the epidural.” The doula was trying to talk me out of it. She was like, "Are you sure? What are you going to do if you're not there?” I'm like, "I'm going to get the epidural.” I was 9.5 centimeters at that point. Meagan: Oh yeah. Right there. Katie: Yeah, and I was like, "Oh my gosh. This is actually happening.” My body was starting to push on its own and it was such a weird feeling. It was so different than my friend's birth that I photographed. She had an epidural and it was an induction. That's the only other birth that I've seen and this was so different because my body was pushing. I can't control it. Yeah. That was about an hour of pushing which felt like an eternity and the contractions were actually fine at that point. I couldn't feel them. I could just feel loads of pressure and the ring of fire which was intense, super duper intense. Then my water broke about 10 minutes before she was born and yeah, she was born. Meagan: You get to 10, your water is probably going out through breaks and baby comes down. Katie: Yeah, I had a bulging bag at the end which is really interesting to feel. She was born at 2:34 AM. Meagan: Aww, that's awesome. So pretty dang quick. Katie: Yeah. If you don't count the two nights of prodromal labor. Meagan: Prodromal labor, yeah. But your body was doing it slowly and surely. Each sweep did give you that extra nudge. It maybe gave you some prodromal labor along the way, but it seemed like it was helping and doing something. Katie: Yeah, if that helped me avoid a medical induction, I'm super glad that I did those. Meagan: Yeah, that's something when it comes to someone facing an induction or facing that hurdle, a membrane sweep might not be a bad idea. But too, with that said, if we go in and we are barely 1 centimeter or our cervix is really posterior and we are 30% effaced, we need to know mentally that if we go for a sweep, the chances of it working is a lot lower. It's just lower because our body is maybe not ready. It also doesn't mean it's not going to work. So like I said earlier, you had that ideal cervical stat. You were that 2 centimeters and 80% effaced. Things were looking good and softer, starting to open and they were able to get a really good sweep but even then, it took time. Katie: Yeah, definitely. My midwives never pressured induction on me. I was pressuring myself mainly because IVF pregnancies– there are differing opinions but some doctors say that you should be induced at 39 weeks and some say you shouldn't go past your due date because of the placenta not being as good. Meagan: Well, yeah. It's so hard because– so twins were IVF and was this baby IVF too?Katie: Yeah. Meagan: Okay, that is hard because there are a lot of people who do say that you should induce at 38-39 weeks with IVF and we do know out there that with IVF, the chances of having placenta issues and abnormalities like abruption are increased. Accreta, previa, and things like that. But if everything is going okay, all is looking well, it's that battle of do we induce? Do we not induce? What do we do?Obviously, your providers weren't pushing it so they didn't see any real medical need but then we have other providers on the complete opposite end where they are pushing it hard. Katie: Yeah, in some of my IVF groups on Facebook, basically every single person is induced or has a C-section. It's pretty rare for a provider to say you can go to 42 weeks like mine did. Meagan: Interesting. I actually don't know the real stats on IVF placental issues after 38 weeks. Had anybody ever talked to you about what your chance of issues really were after a certain point?Katie: No. The abruption was I think more of a risk factor was that it was twins and my uterus was so stretched but no one really mentioned placental issues or even said, “Let's look at your placenta after 40 weeks.” They do have the standard ultrasound to look at baby and do the BPP test, but they said that there is nothing really you can see from an ultrasound after your due date. Meagan: We know that ultrasounds can be off by size and by all the things. Katie: Yeah, and she was measuring bigger. She was 85th percentile which was actually true. She was born 8 pounds, 4 ounces so she wasn't tiny like my twins were. Meagan: Yeah. I Googled really, really quickly. This isn't even a study. This is just an article on it. I'll try to get some more studies and things in here but I'm going to include this article. It's from the Real Birth Company. It looks like they are teachers of birth classes. It's highlighted. It says, “What do you need to know if you are pregnant through IVF and you're being advised to have an induction because you are told that there is a higher chance of stillbirth?” It says, “The only study that we found that gives us the information also noted at higher risk of stillbirth for IVF pregnancies, but crucially, they said no increase in their rate of stillbirth after 28 weeks of pregnancy. It just says, “This research therefore tells us that induction at terms would not necessarily reduce stillbirth rates for babies who are conceived by IVF.”Katie: Yeah. From my understanding, it's hard to do studies on this because a lot of women who need IVF have other health factors which can increase the risk of obviously stillbirth and other issues in pregnancy. Meagan: Yeah, it's showing that sometimes IVF moms have placenta accreta and placental abruption at a higher risk. It shows that IUGR babies have a higher chance for being smaller. It also says that gestational diabetes and preeclampsia have an increased chance. So like you said, there are other things that they may have. I'm just going to throw this in there in case anyone listening is an IVF mama and wants to know more. It's interesting that you're saying that in that group– are they scheduling C-sections?Katie: Yeah. Most women get scheduled C-sections, not scheduled C-sections, scheduled inductions but they end in a C-section because they aren't ready. Meagan: Okay, so they aren't necessarily scheduling them right off the bat just because they are IVF. Katie: Right. Meagan: But again, like you said, they aren't ready and inductions are happening and people are ending up in a Cesarean. Katie: Yes. Meagan: Interesting. Well, this article was written in 2021. I'm also going to put a couple others in here that says actually 2024 so I need to look more into this but it's something to consider because again, this is a space where we are trying to reduce unnecessary Cesareans. We're seeing that it's happening so it might be something that you want to research if you are out there and you are doing IVF, research that and see if it's something that really is necessary for sure. Katie: This is just my personal story, but my placenta looked perfectly fine at 40+5 with this baby. Meagan: Yeah, so everything was looking good at that point. We did talk about that in the beginning– sticky placenta or really retained placenta. Did you have that with this? Maybe you can talk to us more about the placenta. You gave birth to babe. It was a VBAC that was a lot faster than anticipated and you went unmedicated when you didn't think you could. I kind of love that so much that you were like, “I have a low pain tolerance,” but then you did that. It just goes to show how possible it is, right? But yeah, talk to us about your placenta. Katie: Yeah. That was actually worse than the pain of the entire birth and something I didn't expect because I had asked about this because it can be an issue with IVF pregnancies. I had asked about this in one of my prenatal appointments and the midwife said, “We don't know if you're going to have that or not. IVF is a risk factor for it,” but since I had the opposite of a sticky placenta. I had a placenta that was coming off the wall. With my last pregnancy, she was like, “I'm guessing that you're not going to have that,” but I did. After baby was out, my placenta was not coming out after 10 minutes and around 30 minutes, I think they like to have it out by then. So they gave it 10 minutes for it to come out naturally, but my contractions completely stopped. Nothing was happening at that point. My body wasn't expelling it. They were trying to pull on it. Eventually, it came out but I was still having bleeding when they were pressing on my stomach than they would like to see. They gave me the Pitocin and that didn't work and then they tried two or three other medications. Meagan: Did they give you Cytotec at all? Katie: Yeah, I think so and another medication that goes in the back in the booty. Meagan: Oh, yes. They usually will insert it rectally. Yes. Yes. Cytotec is not okay when we are pregnant and we are trying to go into labor, but because it makes the uterus contract so hard which is the whole issue with Cytotec and VBAC, it can help reduce bleeding and help the placenta and all of these things. Yeah. Katie: Yeah. They gave me the max dose of Pitocin in my IV and none of that worked. They gave me the Pitocin in the leg and that didn't work, the Cytotec. Then they brought out the ultrasound machine and scanned around and saw that there were some pieces left inside. So she had to stick her hand up and get them. That was horrible. Meagan: And you were unmedicated. I'm just going to tell you right now that you have a high pain tolerance. I think you might be incorrect on that. Not saying that really, but holy cow. Unmedicated and a retained placenta retrieval scrape– they are essentially scraping and fishing for your placenta. Katie: Yes and she had to go in two or three times. They gave me some kind of IV medication and all it did was make me feel drunk. Meagan: Probably fentanyl. Katie: It was something with a D maybe. Dimerol.Meagan: Dilaudid. Katie: Maybe Dilaudid. It made me feel loopy and nauseous but did nothing for the pain. I was holding my baby the whole time and I just want to forget that horrible experience. Meagan: That is rough. Sometimes placentas “stay sticky” and it really can take up to an hour even for a placenta to come out. Sometimes we don't know why and like you said, IVF stuff maybe could have helped but the placenta usually is in that 5 to 30-minute period and providers do start to worry if it's more than that because after we have our baby, our cervix was 10 centimters. It dilated and everything was open and thinned and then it starts coming back and closing again which is the normal process. Katie: Oh my gosh. I didn't even think of that. Meagan: Yeah, it's just that normal process where it starts closing so providers start fearing that if the cervix is closed or too small, the placenta can't move through and then we've got the placenta inside and retained placenta is a very serious thing. You want to get your placenta out. It's an amazing organ and functions amazingly. It raises these amazing babies through these 9 months. It supports them and feeds them but we need to get it out because retained placenta can make you very sick. They start fearing that and sometimes when they are tugging, it can make it so the blood vessels get ripped off or they weren't ready so then we have bleeding and retained placenta and all of these things. They start fearing it and things like breastfeeding, Pitocin, Cytotec, and all of these things that they are trying to get to help you contract more is an effort to help get that out. But yeah. That is a lot. That's a lot. You had this beautiful birth and then whoa, quite a lot right there. Katie: Yeah, a bit of a turn and in addition to that, I had a second-degree tear that they also had to stitch me up. I don't remember if that was before or after the whole extraction. Meagan: Your provider fishing could have caused more tearing. Yeah. There is also a possibility that if for some reason it doesn't come out that you will have to be taken to an OR which is a more rare circumstance but I've had one client in all the 10 years of doing this and she was a VBAC client too actually. She had a beautiful birth and then had to go in and get it manually removed. So yeah, breastfeeding as soon as you can, changing positions and also emptying your bladder is something that you can do because if your bladder is full then it can hold things up so sometimes it's detached but not coming out so there are things we can do and then of course, taking medication and going a step further if we really need to. Katie: Yeah. Overall though, I don't regret any of that. It was still such a beautiful birth even though the end and the golden hour took a turn, it still was more than I had imagined. Meagan: Yeah. I was actually going to ask you. Even with that which is a lot, would you still suggest doing it or would you have done it differently if you could go back?Katie: No regrets. The recovery was a million times easier even with the tear and all of that. I was going to the botanical garden 4 days postpartum with my family. Meagan: Oh my gosh. You were out walking around. Katie: Yeah. Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is amazing. That is amazing. Katie: With toddlers, you've got to get back to real life. Meagan: I know. It's so hard to take that break and recover when we have life that is still moving around us. Katie: Definitely. Meagan: Remind me, you said you took Needed's collagen, right? Katie: I did. Yeah. Meagan: That actually probably helped healing as well. Katie: Yeah. I love that stuff because I wanted to get more protein in. I just put it in my shakes along with all of the other things that I did like the chiropractor and the dates. I did all of the things. Meagan: Yes. And your doulas, do you want to do a shoutout? Katie: Yeah, 3-1-2 doulas and I worked with Heather. Meagan: Awesome. Katie: Yeah, and they have awesome classes too. If you are a doula customer, they are free and if you're not, you can still sign up for them and they are super great. Meagan: That is so awesome. We love our doulas and to all of those listeners out there, just a reminder. We have a major doula directory from literally all over the US to outside of the US if you are looking for doulas too. You can go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula. We love our doulas so dang much. Obviously, I love doulas so much I became one. Doulas are so amazing. I love that you said you did chiropractic care and dates and all of the things. Are there any other suggestions or tips that you would give our listeners as they are going through their VBAC journey? Katie: Yeah, just listen to these podcasts a lot and you'll learn so much. Join The VBAC Link group on Facebook. Meagan: Yes. I love that community. Isn't it just amazing? Katie: Yeah, it's great. There's also another VBAC Facebook group that I loved as well. Meagan: Do you remember the name?Katie: I don't remember. Meagan: There are a few on there. We love– Katie: VBAC Support Group. Yeah, that one's great. Meagan: Awesome. Katie: Yeah, just believe in yourself. You can do it. You are a badass. Meagan: You are a badass and you can do it. I agree. We'll end on that note because that is such a true statement. Girl, you are amazing and I'm so grateful for you sharing these beautiful stories today. Katie: Thank you so much for having me.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

As a first-time mom, Katie was struggling with potty training and feeling like she didn't know what she was doing. She later became a potty training consultant to help other struggling moms and now hosts the Burnt Pancakes podcast. Katie's first birth was a scheduled breech Cesarean. Her second birth was a spontaneous 36-hour labor at 39 weeks and 1 day with 1.5 hours of pushing and a tough recovery from a 3rd-degree tear and labial adhesions.Katie wanted to go for a VBAC again with her third. Though she thought she would go into labor at 39 weeks spontaneously again, she actually ended up getting induced at 41 weeks. She got an epidural right at the end of her labor, but was able to push her third son out in just two pushes!Meagan and Katie talk about how pelvic floor physical therapy is necessary for both Cesarean and vaginal birth recoveries. No matter how long it's been since you gave birth, it can still be a game-changer!Katie's WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Welcome, welcome everybody. We have our friend, Katie, with us today sharing her 2VBAC stories and before we got started, we were talking about once you have that C-section and you're contemplating having a VBAC and you talk to people and they're like, “Wait, you can't do that. Doctors won't let you do that.” Right? Katie: Mhmm, yep. Meagan: But what have we learned? What have we learned over all the years? Yes, we can. Yes, you can. Women of Strength, if you are listening and you have had one C-section and you are wanting to know your options, we are going to share two stories today. Okay, so Katie– you guys, she is the host of a podcast. Is it Burnt Pancakes? Katie: Burnt Pancakes, yep. Meagan: Tell us more about that. Katie: Okay. So when I became a mom, my oldest son was potty training and it was an absolute disaster. That's probably the point in motherhood I felt the absolute worst. He had a tendency to poop his pants whenever we were in my friend's backyard running around and playing. One day, he had this awful mess. I was cleaning it up. I was frustrated. I was like, “Oh my gosh. He's never going to get it.” My friend looked at me and was like, “Katie, don't worry about it.” Everyone burns their first pancake. I was like, “That just made me feel so validated as a mom.” Fast forward about 8 years and I decided to start my own motherhood podcast and I named it “Burnt Pancakes” because we are all figuring out this thing as we go. Meagan: I love that so much. It's so true.Katie: So true. I'm still figuring it out. Meagan: I know, every day. As soon as I feel like I've started figuring out motherhood and parenthood and all of that, it starts to change on me. Katie: Right. It throws you for a loop. Meagan: Right. If you can relate here, go listen to her podcast and it's just called “Burnt Pancakes”. And you are everywhere, right? Katie: “Burnt Pancakes”. We have mom-versations each week. I love to chat with moms. One of my favorite things to do was meet a mom at a park and hit it off and start chatting. That's what I wanted my podcast to feel like– real moms chatting about motherhood. Meagan: Real moms chatting about motherhood. Then maybe was the inspiration between that whole experience with your son what led to also potty training consulting? Katie: Correct. At the time, I was teaching. I taught for 17 years. It was potty training my first son which was an absolute disaster. But fast forward, I have two more kids. I potty trained them and things got easier. I started feeling very confident in my skills and people started asking me for tips. I decided to become a full-time potty training consultant so now I actually help moms with the potty training process which blows my mind because if you had asked me 8 years ago, “Would you be doing this?” I would have said, “Heck no. I have no clue what I'm doing.” But what I am doing is trying to help moms who are in the same shoes I was in. You can do this. I can help you get through it. I have the answers for you that I didn't have back then. Meagan: Yep. That's exactly how we are here at The VBAC Link. We were in the thick of it. It was a rocky journey. There were a lot of unknowns and if you asked me 8-9 years ago if I was going to be doing a podcast sharing VBAC stories, I probably wouldn't have said yes. I would have been like, “Probably not,” and here we are inspiring and encouraging. Katie: Heck no. Meagan: I'm so excited for you. So tell us where people can find you for potty training because I'm sure a lot of people listening right now especially being pregnant, you probably have a toddler as you are preparing for your birth. Katie: Yes. You can find me at my website. My website is burntpancakes.com. On social media, you can find my potty training information at @itspottytime. Meagan: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Katie: Yeah. Meagan: I do have a Review of the Week to share before we get into these stories. Katie: Go for it. Meagan: This is by theblanchardbunch. It says, “Get PUMPED!!!” It says, “Listening to this podcast just gets me pumped. You've had a C-section and you want a VBAC. Absolutely. You've had two C-sections. You go for that VBAC. Oh, you've had three or four? Go get that VBAC, mama, because you are a queen and 100% capable. Seriously, this podcast not only informs you of all the amazing things our bodies can do but also, you are immediately welcomed into a space of understanding and love. Our bodies are powerful but sometimes we just need a little help becoming empowered. This podcast does just that. I'm preparing for my VBAC and I'm currently 36 weeks pregnant. I think that all the time what I'd say or share if I were on the podcast because I am so sure this VBAC is happening. Thank you to all of the mamas who have shared their stories and thank you to Julie and Meagan who have created a space for all of these mamas needing to be uplifted and empowered.” What a fun review. Katie: Aww, that's amazing. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love this. It's in all caps right here. “GO GET THAT VBAC, MAMA, BECAUSE YOU ARE A QUEEN AND 100% CAPABLE.” I couldn't agree more with theblanchardbunch. I hope that you got your VBAC. Congratulations on your birth and as always, if you have a review, I would love for you to share it. I read them every single week and they really do truly bring me all of the joy. Katie: I love that. Meagan: Okay, Ms. Katie. Let's turn the time over to you. Let's share these stories. Katie: Okay. Well, my story starts 10 years ago. It's really hard to believe it's been that long but I was pregnant with my first son and we got the news at 28ish weeks that he was breech which I at the time didn't even know what that meant. It was just a regular appointment and my doctor just nonchalantly was like, “Oh, he's head up. Okay, you'll probably end up having a C-section.” Meagan: Whoa. Katie: I was like, “Come again?” First of all, what's head up? I don't know. Meagan: At 28 weeks? Katie: Yes. Yes. Crazy. She made it seem like no big deal but for me, it was. I'm a taller girl. I'm 5'9”. I've always had bigger hips, a nice pear shape so I always thought, One day, these hips are going to serve a purpose. When I'm giving birth, these things are going to come in handy. My instant thought was, My body is not going to be able to do that. How can you just drop that on me and not feel anything? She basically said, “Most babies won't turn. There's a chance he could turn but you might just end up having a C-section.” I was like, “Well, is there a chance? What's this?” She's like, “You can try something to turn him but that's just the way it was.” Meagan: No offering of an ECV or anything like that in time? Katie: As the weeks went on, she mentioned it, but for her, she was like, “I've been doing this for years. Most of the time, I don't see them turn.” She just made it seem like a C-section was totally cool and totally normal. I was like, “What? How can this be?” I did try almost everything to get him to turn. At the time, I was taking a yoga class. Side note– Drew Barrymore was in my yoga class. Looking at you right now, I'm like, “You look so much like her.”Meagan: I've been told that for so many years– Drew Barrymore and Winona Ryder. Apparently, those two people I look like. Katie: When you hopped on the call, I was like, “Oh my god. You look like Drew.” I tried to play it super cool because at the time, we were living in LA and I was like, “Oh my god, Drew Barrymore is right next to me.” She even said something to me like, “Hey, mama.” I tried to play it so cool.Anyway, in that yoga class, all the moms were like, “You need to go see this chiropractor. You need to try this.” They were super supportive so I did go see a chiropractor. I forget what they called the procedure but it was massaging your hip flexors really, really hard. I don't know why that makes him turn. It was loosening some ligaments to make them turn. Meagan: Like your round ligaments and stuff? Katie: Yes. I believe that's what it was. It was extremely painful and the chiropractor at the time was like, “You're going to do great in birth because you have excellent pain tolerance.” I was like, “Okay, thank you.” He did not turn. At the time, there was a website called Spinning Babies. Meagan: There still is. Katie: Okay. I literally Googled everything to get him to turn. I lay on my couch with my hips up. I had my husband sing to me “Turn Around” over and over. I did everything. He did not turn so in April, they were like, “Okay, here's your scheduled C-section appointment.” I at least had time to prepare for the C-section. It wasn't an emergency. I took all the notes on tips to do to help recover and in that sense, I felt prepared and I got to be at peace with the fact that I wasn't delivering vaginally. But it was still weird when they were like, “April 26th. That's going to be the day when he comes in.” I'm like, “You're picking his birthday. What if he's not ready at 39 weeks to come?” Then two days before, “Oh hey, the doctor has an opening on the 25th so we're going to take you on the 25th.” I called my husband, “They're changing it to Friday.” Meagan: It's a weird feeling for them to be like, “Hey, you are going to have your baby this day around this hour.” Katie: Yeah and it was earlier than the due date so it just felt really weird. Meagan: Was it a week before?Katie: It was a week before, yeah. He was born at 39 weeks and 1 day. I still wonder. His sign– I can't remember which one it is but the sign he was born on was not what he could have been born and it just doesn't match up. He seems more like a Taurus than this and I'm like, “Is it because they chose when you were going to come?” We showed up that Friday for the C-section and of course, I got to do my hair. I got to take a shower so that was nice. You show up at the hospital and they're like, “Okay, your 8:00 appointment.” You're like, “Am I checking into a hotel here or giving birth?” I never once felt a contraction. I mean, it's weird to say I was sad that I didn't feel that because later I learned what that feels like and I'm like, “That was fun.” Meagan: It sounds weird but at the same time, it's this natural feeling that we've been taught and told that our body does so you mourn that. Katie: Yeah. I want to feel it. That was it. I was mourning the fact that my body wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. A weird thing– we did the hospital birthing class. It was 4 hours. They talked about C-section for maybe 5 minutes of the whole class but then they said, “3 out of 4 people will have a C-section.” That was the statistic from the hospital. I was like, “Oh, well that's not going to be me.” This was before I knew he was breech. That's not going to be me. But I'm like, Why would you spend only 5 minutes if 75% of us end up in a C-section? How is that possible? Yeah. It felt weird. But I did go in somewhat prepared. It still felt very sterile and scary but we had him via C-section. He's totally healthy. There were extra doctors in the operating room just because he was breech so there were four pediatricians. My husband was like, “The room was filled. It was pretty crazy.” But he was healthy. He was fine. Everything turned out great. I do feel like with a C-section though, I was completely out of it for 24 hours. I don't remember my parents coming. I vaguely remember but my husband was like, “Your mom and dad were here.” I was like, “Oh gosh, they were.” I vaguely remembered. Meagan: That's how I was too. I was in and I was out. Katie: Yes. I didn't breastfeed him for the first hour until they got me to the other room and they were like, “Oh, were you planning on breastfeeding?” I didn't know that I could breastfeed him in the first few minutes. I wasn't aware. The recovery for that was a lot harder. Just getting out of bed to go to the bathroom the first day was excruciating. But we were fine. I recovered from it and it was all good. Moving 3 years forward, we got pregnant with our second kid. I found out I was having a second boy which for anyone who has experienced gender disappointment, it's a real thing and it's totally okay to mourn the loss of a daughter or just feel unsure about the gender of your baby. I remember crying. I got home from the ultrasound and was just bawling because I was like, This was my girl. Where is she? This is a boy. It did take me a couple of months after he was born before I was feeling pretty good with it and that's a normal feeling. I think no one really talks about that. But it was a totally normal pregnancy. What we did discover from the first one is that I had very low water fluid in my amniotic sac so they said that could have been the reason. My second son, I definitely didn't have that because I put on about 40 pounds and was much bigger. I was able to stay super active during that pregnancy doing boot camp and lifting weights until the last month. We moved from LA to Orange County so I had to get a different doctor for this pregnancy. The doctor I saw from day one was like, “If you want a VBAC, we can absolutely go ahead and try that.” She actually more encouraged it. Everything I had heard when I had the C-section was, “Your son was breech so that doesn't mean you can't deliver naturally in the future,” but a lot of hospitals and doctors were kind of hesitant about it.” This doctor was like, “No. I don't see any reason why you can't try.” You do have to sign your life away pretty much. I had to sign a thing saying these are all of the things that could happen and that is terrifying. Meagan: I'm accepting that. Katie: Yes and it's my liability here. The doctors are off the hook but she was very supportive about it but she never made me feel like I couldn't do it. His pregnancy went just fine. I went into labor naturally right before the 39-week and 1-day mark. I actually had him at 39 weeks and 1 day exactly the same as the C-section so it made me feel a little bit better like I didn't take my older son too early. I was always worried, Did I take him out too early? I did have a lot of baby blue and a little bit of postpartum with my first and sometimes I wondered, Was it because of the C-section? I don't know if there's any science behind that. He wasn't ready to come yet. Meagan: You guys didn't have your bonding. Your body didn't naturally go into labor. There are a lot of things that could come into play. Katie: All that ran through my mind. Yes. Yeah. Meagan: But sometimes those who go into labor still get those postpartum depression and baby blues. Katie: Totally, yeah. Absolutely. I went into labor and this one was about 36 hours. It was very long. I didn't realize that a few hours into getting contractions, my water actually broke. I thought I peed myself. I was sitting at home laboring and laboring. Things were just taking forever. I was having regular contractions. They weren't as close as I thought they were supposed to be. I don't know what it is. I don't know if other moms feel this but when you go into laobr, it's almost like you go into the zone and it's like, I'm just doing this thing. My husband was like, “Should we call the doctor?” I was like, “No, not yet. I don't think we are supposed to.” I was just in the thing. Meagan: You're focused. Your focus shifts. Katie: Looking back, I should have called the doctor the second I went into labor just to get tabs and figure out when I should go in but I was just like, “No. We've got to keep waiting. I don't feel like I'm ready to have him yet.” We finally got to the hospital hours and hours later and they were like, “Oh, your water broke a while ago.” I ended up being in labor with him for a very long time. I ended up pushing for an hour and a half. I do remember at one point they said, “Okay, if we can't get him out, we will have to go and do a C-section.” That was like, no. I really, really wanted this. I didn't do a whole lot of preparing. With the first one, we did the classes. I did research, but this one was kind of like, I'm just going to go in and trust my gut. I'm just going to see what happens. I was totally prepared that if it was going to be a C-section, I knew what to expect but I really wanted to see if my body could do it. I remember the nurse kept saying, “You've got to keep your eyes open when you push.” For me, it just felt so unnatural to keep my eyes open. I just wanted to scrunch up. She was like, “Relax your face and keep your eyes open.” I was like, “That doesn't feel right.” I think my son had a giant head. He still to this day has a larger head than my oldest son. It just was hard to get him out but he finally came out. I gave birth to him. I was able to walk around so much quicker and the recovery was a lot better. I did end up having a third-degree tear so it's not like vaginal birth is less damaging than a C-section. I have scars from both kids. Meagan: Not always. Katie: But it was so nice to know, I know what it feels like to go through it. I had an epidural with him. I think I was maybe 5 or 6 centimeters so it's not like I ever got to crazy intense contractions and I didn't feel anything when I was pushing. Part of it was I didn't feel anything when I was pushing and I think that was kind of hard because I didn't feel anything to get him out. Meagan: Sometimes that can play into tearing actually weirdly enough and then the lack of ability to push in a position if we are in a back crunch position. We are putting more pressure so if we do have a baby with a little bit of a larger head or is having a harder time coming out– which by the way, first-time moms, you guys, 36 hours with an hour and a half of pushing is crazy but it can be very normal. Katie: It's normal. It's so normal. I think what was hard for me was I looked at the clock when I started pushing because I had friends who were like, “Oh, I pushed for this long. I pushed for this long.” With my third, I decided, Don't look at the clock. Don't think about how long it's going to take. It's just going to take as long as it needs to be, because it was an hour of pushing. One thing that was kind of scary is that his heart rate would go down every time I'd push so they were like, “This could be dangerous.” Another thing was that I might have to get him out sooner so they would have me push for a contraction and then wait on a contraction. It was literally 6 minutes in between pushes. It just took a long time. But he was a healthy little boy and all was good. We thought we were going to have two kids. Everything was wonderful and then a year later, my husband was like, “Okay, are we ready to get rid of the baby clothes?” I'm like, “Umm, actually, I don't think we are done yet.” Part of me still wanted a girl but I just did not feel like our family was complete. It was the weirdest feeling because we had always said, “We are going to have two kids.” We've got a three-bedroom house. It just made sense. Then we both decided– we had a little talk. If we were to have another kid and it ends up being a boy, are you okay with that? We were both like, “Yes. I feel like three is what's going to make our family complete.” I was a little bit older. At the time, I was 38 so I'm like, “If we want a third, let's try for it this year and if not, that's a sign.” We did get pregnant with the third. I did not find out what I was having on this one because I was like, I have a feeling it's going to be a boy and I don't want to feel that disappointment again while I'm pregnant, and if it's a girl, what a fun surprise to wait and find out. We didn't find out. I don't know if anybody else feels this way, but I had dreams about having a boy. My mom gut was like, You're going to be okay with another little boy.  I kind of knew, but I still wanted to wait. This pregnancy went fine. With my middle, I was all for working out and going to boot camp, and felt really great. With this one, I was like, I've got two kids and I am exhausted. I put on more weight than I ever had. I could not move around. I hurt the most. I had the worst pelvic bone pain. Meagan: SPD?Katie: Probably. Probably, but I did not really speak up. I told my doctor, “Oh, I'm feeling some pain.” She was like, “That's normal during pregnancy.” Now, looking back, I know people who saw a chiropractor during pregnancy and I'm like, “That's what I needed.” Meagan: Or even pelvic floor. Katie: Yep. That's what I needed because for a year after having him, I would get pain when I would walk and I'm like, I wish I had known that there was something I could do about that. So if you are feeling pain, speak up because I could have done something about it. With this one, I was very large. I was ready to have him. I got to that 39-week mark and was like, He or she is coming. I know it's any day now. Then my due date hit and he was not there yet. The doctor was like, “Oh, you're already dilated. It's coming soon.” She stripped my membrane and was like, “Oh, in a day or two you're going to have him but let's just schedule an induction in case.” We get to 41 weeks and still was not having a baby. Having two at 39 weeks and then having to wait until 41 was an eternity. It felt like the longest wait ever. I think this was God's way of saying, “You're done now. You're good,” because I remember feeling like I never wanted to be pregnant again. I am never giving birth again. This is the last time and I felt very complete with that whereas with the second one, it was like, Is this really the last time I'm going to carry a baby? Is this the last time I'm going to give birth? It felt really nice. I was still seeing the same doctor I was seeing with my middle son. She was on board. She was actually telling me that if you've done a VBAC and then you have another one, it's not considered a VBAC. Is that what you've heard?Meagan: No, it's still considered a VBAC but your risks go up. Your risks go up for vaginal birth and down for things like uterine rupture. Unfortunately, you're always going to be a VBAC. Katie: Yeah. Okay, so risk went down. Okay. But she was totally on board with it. I had to be induced with this one. I literally have tried everything. I've had a C-section. I've had an epidural birth and I've had an induction. I can't say that one is better. I feel like they are all part of my birth stories. Each one is special but I had to do the Foley bulb. I had to almost not get the epidural. My water broke a couple of hours into the hospital and then a contraction started very fast. I remember waiting for the anesthesiologist and going, “If he doesn't get here, I'm having this baby.” As he was giving it to me, I felt like I needed to push. I didn't say anything because I was like, I really want the epidural, but I was literally like, Oh my god. I have to push. I have to push. This is so hard. I actually did feel the worst contractions with that because I was literally at the end. After he was done, the nurse came in and I was like, “Hey, can you check me because I think I feel like I need to push?” She checked and she was like, “Let's get the doctor. You're ready.” It was like, epidural and now it's time to push. My husband was actually getting food because they didn't allow him in the room when I got the epidural so he was like, “I'm going to go get breakfast.” I'm like, “Cool, cool.” Then I'm sitting there like, “Umm, is he going to get back in time?” They were like, “Let's do a practice push,” and I'm like, “He's not here yet!”I got him out in one and a half pushes and there was my third boy. It was just such a different experience going from, I'm going to have to push for 3 hours. With this one, I remember thinking, I'm just going to let my body do what feels right. I'm not going to have the nurses tell me to push this way and do that. I'm just going to close my eyes and scrunch my face like they tell me not to do, but it felt so much easier. I remember asking her, “I did my practice push. Did that do anything?” She was like, “Yes. Please stop. I need to get my gloves and I need to get this.” So he was out and I had my third boy. I would say with the two vaginal births, my recovery was so much easier. Just hospital-wise, I was able to move around a lot faster. With my middle son, I was able to go to the park with my boys a week later whereas with the C-section, I don't think I left my house for the first 6 weeks because I was so uncomfortable and it didn't feel right. All three births gave me scars but in a different way. Meagan: Yeah. I actually really love that you pointed out that even with vaginal birth, there can be an extra recovery or extra things because I think sometimes in this world, it's like, C-section is bad. C-section is bad. C-section is bad. VBAC is amazing. VBAC is wonderful. Okay. Absolutely. I believe that VBAC is amazing and wonderful. I do not believe that C-section is bad. I do believe that we have way too many unnecessary C-sections and that is bad. Katie: Right. Meagan: We know though that vaginal birth sometimes isn't all sunshine and butterflies. We have tearing. We have prolapse. We have pelvic floor dysfunction for the next however long because we pushed for 2.5-3 hours or even an hour and a half or we labored for a really long time and we are sore or whatever. Sometimes C-sections can be just the most healing and beautiful experiences for someone. I love that you pointed that out. It's just important to remind everybody listening to go with what you feel is best. No, you don't have to schedule a C-section just in case. No, you don't have to do these things but if you want to and that's what feels right, do it. We encourage you. Katie: I absolutely did not have any incontinence problems after the C-section but after the vaginal birth now, doing jumping jacks and running is a different story. Yeah. It's different. Meagan: I want to talk about that because I also didn't have a lot of incontinence. It's not like I have incontinence now but I have pressure and things like that. I just went to a pelvic floor specialist and she said– oh crap. What did she call them? My bones, the birthing bones, they are my pelvis, but my pelvis was stuck in a flared state from birth. Katie: Oh whoa. Meagan: She manually closed my bones. It was insane. I could feel it. She was like, “Oh, there's no give. Can you feel it?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, yeah.” She worked it, did her PT thing and closed these bones. She said, “Sometimes people have these bones get stuck open after birth and it puts a lot of trauma on their pelvic floor and they have incontinence and all of these things.” Katie: Whoa. Meagan: She did two other things which blew my mind. I've never had that happen with a pelvic floor specialist before but my uterus was really, really hard and she was like, “It should move and float within.” She massaged my uterus and then she went internal and my bladder was adhered from the inside. Even though we have C-sections, Women of Strength, and you have had vaginal births and everything, if you've had that C-section, there is a likelihood of you having adhesions or scar tissue in there that may cause pelvic floor issues and incontinence. So anyway, my bladder was adhered and then there was a part of my cervix that needed to be released. She was like, “I wonder if that's why you had such a long end.” My cervix would stretch but it wouldn't stay. Or she said, “I see this a lot with failure to progress or cervical lips where there is this thing that needs to be released.” As soon as it was, I can't even tell you the difference in how I feel. Katie: Wow. Meagan: The pressure is really pretty much gone. I would say there is maybe a little. She even said, “The next visit might need a little bit more tweaking.” I just ran the other day, 3 miles for the first time in forever. Usually after 1 mile, my pelvic floor would just give out. I did fine. Katie: Don't you wish that was something every OB/GYN was like, “Okay, you're going to see me and you're going to go here”? Or you give birth and it's not like, “6 weeks, you're good.” It's like, “Oh, now you need to go see this.” Meagan: Yes and it's not talked about with C-sections either. A lot of time those C-section scars can cause back pain and pelvic floor things, urine incontinence, pain during sex, and things like that. We don't even know that it's related to our C-section because we've never pushed a baby out of our vaginas. Right? It's so crazy. Katie: My youngest is 4 and I'm like, I should finally book that PT consultation and just find out what's all going on down there. Meagan: Yes! My VBAC baby is going to be 8. At this point of this recording, he is 8 and here I am this year just going. I have done physical therapy before and pelvic work but I've never done it to this extent where I was like, Okay, I'm going to get down to the bottom of this and had results like this this fast. Katie: Whoa. Okay, let me ask you a question. Did you go through your doctor or did you just search and find one yourself? Meagan: I did search and find one myself. The craziest thing is I did call to see if insurance would cover it. They do not. It's all out of pocket. So like you said, I feel like this should be a standard thing regardless of C-section or vaginal birth. It should just be part of our postpartum care. I actually think it should be part of our prenatal care. Katie: Totally. Oh my gosh. I know. Someone I know was getting really bad pains so she went while she was pregnant to PT and I was like, That's exactly how I felt a year ago, because she was having it after me. I was like, I wish I would have known about that, because that would have really, really helped. Meagan: Yeah. Chiropractic care for sure. Pelvic PT. Know that not every birth is going to be amazing and beautiful but all we can do is prepare and understand. Katie: Right. Right. And be at peace with whatever is meant to be. I look back at my C-section. I tell my husband this all the time. If we would have lived on the prairie, I would have died during that breech birth. It would have been almost impossible to deliver him. I did seek out, are there any doctors who deliver breech babies? In LA there was one, but to me, it just felt a little too risky to even go down that route. 100 years ago, I might not have survived childbirth so the C-section for me was a lifesaver. It was so comforting to know that. My first vaginal birth though, I did have some complications after so just because you deliver vaginally doesn't mean it's a piece of cake and it's over. At  my 6-week appointment, I remember telling my doctor, “Something doesn't feel right down there.” She was like, “I'll check it out. Let me see.” I was like, “No, really. Something feels wrong.” My labia actually, part of it fused together. She said there were probably mini tears and it literally was. I was like, “I just don't think the hole is big right now.” She was like, “Oh, yes. I see what you're talking about.” It literally fused together. She was a teaching doctor. She worked for a hospital so she was like, “We never see this. Do you mind if I take a picture for my students?” I was sitting there with stirrups. She was like, “I won't get your face or say your name.” I was like, “Yes. For science, yes. Please take a picture of this.” I ended up in just the hospital visit where she had to cut it and then sauter it back together. I was able to do it in the doctor's office. It was a super easy procedure, but I was numb during that and the recovery from having an open wound in that area when you're peeing is not comfortable. So being 6 weeks postpartum feeling like, I should be getting back to normal, then oh God, this. Meagan: There are always hurdles. Katie: It's not all roses when you deliver naturally either. But I was happy that maybe some other mom– because it was extremely embarrassing. I didn't even want to have my husband look or tell my husband what this was but being able to share it with other moms, they were like, “Why doesn't anyone tell you that stuff like this happens?” And thank God for modern medicine because again, had this been the prairie, I would have never had another child after that. Meagan: Might have been too traumatizing. Yeah. It's just so hard to know. Everybody internalizes and processes differently their births and their experiences. Do the research. Get in your head in a good space. Find your provider and do the things and choose the birth that is right for you. Katie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Meagan: Thank you again for sharing your stories. Congrats. Katie: Oh thank you. Meagan: Definitely go see a pelvic PT. Katie: I'm booking one today. It's time. It's time. Meagan: It's time. Women of Strength, I think it's really important that sometimes we forget this. We deserve to give back to ourselves. After having a baby, it's a really big deal. It's a really big deal no matter how you have this baby. And then on top of it, the lack of sleep and feeding a baby, all of the things. Remember to give back to yourself. Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I learned after my third. It took me three kids that asking for help is okay. I remember with my first I felt like, I don't want to ask for help because they're going to think I don't know what I'm doing. I didn't know what I was doing. By the third, someone was like, “Can we start a meal train for you?” I'm like, “Yes. Please do. Yes. I would like everything.” “Can we take your kids to the park so you can have some time?” “Yes please. Let me know what time you're picking them up.” Meagan: Yes. It's okay to say yes. It's okay to take breaks. Well, thank you again so much. Katie: Thank you so much for having me on. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Katie joins us today to tell us about her two birth experiences in Germany. Although she strongly advocated for herself during her first birth, Katie was extremely mistreated. Her labor and horrible C-section experience left her with intense PTSD straining her relationship with both her baby and her husband. Katie knew that if she wanted to have another baby, she had to plan for an out-of-hospital birth. She continued to advocate for herself by not only learning the evidence but by showing it to providers and defending it. Though she wasn't able to find a supportive backup hospital, Katie labored beautifully at home with her husband, doula, and midwife until she knew it was time to transfer. When she transferred, Katie was able to go to the hospital she wanted to go to and was finally treated with respect. Her wishes were honored and she felt heard. Though this labor was also over 40 hours and had its own unexpected twists, Katie experienced so much healing from her VBAC. She was able to achieve the glorious feeling she hoped she would have from a home birth even in the hospital.  TOLAC in Germany ArticleEvidence-Based Birth Blog: Friedman CurveInformed Pregnancy - code: vbaclink424Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 04:41 Review of the Week07:27 Katie's stories11:14 Start of labor16:55 Going to the hospital20:22 Interventions29:44 Katie's C-section32:06 Preparing for VBAC34:34 Second pregnancy42:01 Labor begins47:11 Getting support from her birth team50:12 Transferring to the hospital53:32 Feeling intense scar pain56:23 Asking for the vacuum58:42 Katie's advice for listeners1:01:47 The Friedman Curve1:06:16 Trusting your intuition1:08:56 Doula supportMeagan: Hello, Women of Strength! We have a story for you today where a mama gave birth in Germany. So I love, love, love when we have out-of-the-country birth stories because we often get messages from people outside of the country wondering if VBAC is still possible and the answer is YES. 100% it is possible and we have our friend Katie today. Hello, Katie!Katie: Hi.Meagan: She is going to just be sharing her story showing that it is possible to VBAC. Now, one of the things that I actually really love about Katie's story is that it shows that things can change, and even when things change it doesn't have to be bad. I sit in that because I personally wanted to birth out of the hospital and when I was in labor, in my mind, if I had to transfer, I was for a little while telling myself that that was a bad thing. And that it wouldn't happen, or people would be looking down, or whatever. I was spiraling. I was just going through a moment in labor. But something that stood out to me with Katie's, is she talks about how after a really long labor at home, planned home birth, her intuition, which we talk about a lot, knew that she needed to make another choice in her labor and that was to go to the hospital. Right, Katie?Katie: Exactly. Yep.Meagan: And so I love that we can talk about how plans can change and that doesn't mean it has to be the be-all end-all. Is that how you say it?Katie: Yeah.Meagan: It doesn't mean it has to be over or it doesn't mean your chances of VBAC are done. If you are planning a home birth and you make the choice, or even if it was medically necessary, like sometimes it is, right? That doesn't mean that it has to be bad. And so I love that part about her story and that she listened to her intuition. And then also another highlight, is that intervention happened, right? And that sometimes in this community we fear the intervention. I understand why we don't all usually want the intervention, we just want it to be left alone. But sometimes intervention comes into play and sometimes those interventions help us get the birth that we wanted. And so I'm just going to end there because I want Katie to be able to share her story but those were a couple of things that, for me, as I was reading her submission, stood out to me and I thought were really important topics to touch on because plans can change and even when plans change, it's okay. 04:41 Review of the WeekMeagan: But I do have a Review of the Week so I want to review that and then I'll turn the time over to you Katie. Okay, so this is from our Google reviews, which we absolutely love. Even our Google reviews help people find the podcast, our blogs, our course, our resources, all the things. If you wouldn't mind heading over to Google. Google “The VBAC Link,” and leave us a review, we would absolutely love that. So this is from, I think it's Eimear. Sorry if I am butchering this name. They gave a 5-star review, so thank you so much. But it says that, “This podcast was my constant source of reassurance and inspiring stories throughout my last two pregnancies. I achieved my VBAC in 2021 and was empowered with so much knowledge and mental strength going into this birth because of The VBAC Link. I had my second C-section in 2002 which was not what I wished for but I do plan on having more children and know that VBA2C (vaginal birth after two C-sections) is a possibility for me because of this podcast. I continue to listen to your inspiring stories each time I hop in the car and I'm so grateful for all that you share. I hope to share my own redeeming story with you in time, too.”Thank you so much for that review. I love that you said that VBAC after 2 C-sections is possible. We see that a lot in our Q and A's. “If I've had 2 C-sections is it possible?” The answer is yes, absolutely, 100 percent. So if you want to learn more check out the podcast or head on over to thevbaclink.com and search VBA2C and you'll get to find more about that. 07:27 Katie's storiesMeagan: Okay, Katie! Welcome again. Thank you for being here. Katie: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to share my story.Meagan: Oh my gosh, me too.  And I know you've got your little one by you. So how old is your little baby?Katie: My daughter, Scarlett, is just shy of 5 months.Meagan: 5 months. Okay, so you're still pretty in the thick of it. Katie: Yes, still sleepless nights.Meagan: Yes, and you're coming from Germany. I don't even know what the time zone is there, but hopefully, you're not up way too early or way too late.Katie: It's like just late afternoon here.Meagan: Okay good, I'm so glad. Well I would love to turn the time over to you to share your stories.Katie: Okay, great. Well, I'll just get started with my C-section story. My son, Charlie, is 2. He was born in 2021. I'm originally from the U.S. but as you mentioned, I live in Germany and I had been in Germany for about 5 years when I had him. And then as just some background, I'm actually an intensive care nurse and I worked in the United States as an intensive care nurse and then for a bit here and have since transitioned into the corporate world. I'm not like a labor and delivery nurse, but I have a lot of knowledge about birth from nursing school. I think there is a little bit of a misconception in the U.S. that everything is better in Europe, that they're more natural or that the healthcare is better, blah blah blah. I just want to say that has not necessarily been my experience especially working as a nurse. I can really see that the shortage of trained healthcare workers is significantly worse here. And there's kind of like, we have our issues in the U.S. too about making sure we're providing evidenced-based care. We try but it's hard to keep up and stuff. I would say it's even harder here and then doctors here are super paternalistic. So when I was pregnant with my son, I had that impression as I was going into it. And also, the way it works here is, you just go to a gynecologist for your pregnancy care and then you just go to the hospital to have your baby. You don't get to pick your doctor. There's just staff, so you just get who you get. I didn't really like that when I was planning my birth for my first pregnancy, but I was kind of like, well what else am I gonna do? That's the way it is. But I felt at the time really confident about my knowledge and that I'm pretty tough and well-informed, and I'll manage to get through it. This is just like the way it's going to be. Didn't have any thoughts about trying to do a home birth or another out-of-hospital environment, it was just like you go to the hospital and baby and go home. So my pregnancy was pretty good. I had the normal kind of aches and pains. There was some concern with my son's placenta. It wasn't functioning great but we didn't have issues from it, just extra growth scans and there were really no problems. He was due December 27th, so around Christmastime. I think if I had known I would have never gotten pregnant to have a baby around Christmastime because my impression was with the hospital, that they were really short-staffed when I ended up having him. 11:14 Start of laborKatie: So I ended up going into labor– he was born on the 22nd, so I went into labor on the 20th of December. I woke up around midnight with really bad back pain and I felt like I was going to have diarrhea. That's probably TMI.Meagan: I totally get that. Katie: Yeah I kept going to the toilet thinking I had food poisoning, and nothing would happen. I would go and sit down, and as soon as I would sit down I'd feel like I'd have to go to the toilet again and I would run back there. This kept going on and then eventually after a little while I had some bloody show and my mucus plug came out. And I was like, “Oh! This was the contractions.” I was not expecting it at all. It was just this stabbing pain in my back and I didn't feel like my uterus was really doing anything so I was kind of surprised. I was like, “I guess I'm in labor,” and it hurt so bad. People always talk about how it starts out kind of light and builds up, and it was really full force. Like I said, I kept going to the couch and trying to sit down and trying to get comfortable and I'd have to keep running to the bathroom. It just kept coming. I was like, “Oh my gosh, is this baby going to be born really fast? This seems pretty intense.” I was like, “No, no I probably have a long time to go so calm down.” I took a shower and got my birth ball out and started trying to work through it. At some point, my husband woke up and I was like, “I think I'm in labor. Go back to bed and I'll get you if I need you.” I labored throughout the night. But around 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, I started noticing contractions. They weren't quite as painful and it was spacing out a little bit and I was like, “Oh, maybe I should try to sleep.” So I laid down on the couch and I was able to kind of sleep in between these contractions. My husband woke me up a few hours later because I had my 39-week doctor's appointment. And I was like oh well we can just go to the doctor and have them check me there and just see how we're going. We walked to the doctor because I was afraid my water would break in the subway so we just decided to walk. But that didn't happen and by the time we got to the doctor, they had spread pretty far apart. I had waited in the waiting room for a while and I only had a couple while I was waiting.My doctor checked me and she said I wasn't dilated and then they did put me on the CTG there for just a little bit to just see what was happening and I didn't have a single contraction while I was hooked up on the CTG. But the second they took it off and I stood up again, it started again. But it was more how people describe early labor. It came every few minutes. It was totally manageable. I just had to take a few deep breaths. We ended up walking home and the rest of the day, that went on. I labored in the afternoon and I thought at some point I should try to take a nap, but every time I tried to lay down it would be really uncomfortable so I got up. Then my husband and I decided, “Well, this baby is probably coming. Let's go do some grocery shopping, get some snacks, and be prepared.” Katie: So we went grocery shopping and my parents were visiting. They were staying in a hotel, but they came over. We all had dinner together. I was convinced that it wasn't labor, and I was like, “This is probably just fake labor,” so I didn't want to tell them. My mom later told me, “We totally knew you were in labor. You did not fool us for a minute.” We made dinner, we all ate, and they left.It was only 7:00 or 8:00 PM and I was like, “Let's sit down and watch some TV and try to relax.” As soon as I sat down, the intensity really picked up and the frequency. I wasn't timing them, but I really saw that they were coming quite often and it wasn't comfortable to sit down anymore. I thought, “I've been doing this all day, almost 24 hours now. I think I deserve to use some of my coping mechanisms that I'd planned for.” So I had planned to listen to these hypnobirthing tracks and had bought a ton of really nice bath supplies to make nice hot baths. So I got in the bath and was just using this app to do the HypnoBirthing tracks and I found it really helped me and I was doing really well. And then after a while, my husband came in. I think he felt like he should be doing something too. I was like, “You can press start and stop on this app because it's really annoying to dry my hands off,” so he was like, “Okay.” He was there for 10  minutes and something popped up on the app that was like, “You should go to the hospital now,” and he started panicking. I was like, “I'm fine.” In my mind, compared to the contractions I had the first part of the previous night, my contractions were going to have to be at least like that or worse because I hadn't dialed at all, so I was like really mentally prepared this is going to be so bad. Right now I still feel fine. They were just coming close together, but I had no feeling the baby was coming. I felt fine.But he was just like, “Oh my gosh, this app is telling us we should go to the hospital,” and ugh. After a while of him freaking out, I thought, “Okay, let's just go to the hospital and do a check. They'll reassure him that I'm tops 2 centimeters dilated and he can relax and I can continue to labor in peace at home.” 16:55 Going to the hospitalSo we get packed up and drive to the hospital. They put me on the CTG and checked me. I'm 2 centimeters. Then after half an hour, they come in and say, “Well, we don't have any beds so we're going to have to send you to a different hospital.” I said, “Whoa, hold the phone.” In my mind, I'm thinking that I have at least 12 more hours of labor to go. I'm a first-time mom. And I was like, “I want to go home and labor. I don't want to labor in the hospital. I want to go home. Can't I come back at like 6:00 AM and check me again?” It was about midnight at this time. And they were like, “Oh no, you're not going to make it to 6:00 AM. Your baby is coming and will be here by morning.” And I was like, “Seriously?”Meagan: “It's midnight, I've got some time.”Katie: And I was like, “I really don't believe that.” But they were so insistent that I had to go to the hospital and they were even like, “We called an ambulance to take you to the other hospital.” Meagan: Oh my gosh.Katie: I was like, “I don't need an ambulance. I'm not dying, I'm just having some contractions. This is crazy, guys.” They were like, “Are you sure?” I was like, “No, I don't want to be separated from my husband and go in an ambulance. Absolutely not.” They were like, “Well, we're going to send you to this other hospital.” I said, “No. This particular hospital has a really bad reputation.” I said, “No, I don't want to go there. I want to go to–” my second choice was blah, blah, blah. They were like, “Oh, they're full.” I was like, “Okay well, my third choice is blah, blah, blah.” “Oh well, they're full too.” And basically, every other hospital in our city was full. I was just like, “Okay, great.” My husband's freaking out. I really don't want to go to this hospital but they're telling him I need to stay. I was like, “Okay, we'll go over there and I'll just get registered and I'll tell them that I want to go home and labor.” So we drive over and the whole time I'm like, “I don't really want to go to this hospital, but okay.” And then I told my husband that I had no idea where the labor and delivery ward was at this hospital. I had never been there. So I said, “Okay, let's park at the emergency room because usually this late at night, hospitals' other entrances aren't open.” We parked in the emergency room and nobody at the emergency room could tell us where labor and delivery was. And I was like, “What the heck?” I was the one looking at the map on the wall figuring out where it was, having these contractions. We walked there and we finally arrived. I had such a bad feeling there. It was kind of icky and old and gross, this hospital. They also hooked me up to a CTG and checked me. They told me that my cervix was completely closed and so I said, “Okay, great! I'm going to go home.” They started trying to put an IV in. And I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. Why do I need an IV? I want to go home.” They also said, “No, your baby is coming imminently.” I was like, “That doesn't really make any sense.” In that kind of labor land you're so easily kind of–Meagan: Persuaded and convinced.Katie: Persuaded. And I also observed that I didn't have the support of my husband anymore. He was losing it basically. I thought, “Okay, I guess.” They had a bathtub and I thought, “Well, maybe I can take a bath here for a couple of hours and go home after that.” So we got in the bathtub and I really didn't like it. I'm not really a big water person so it really wasn't for me. So after awhile I got out. 20:22 InterventionsKatie: And oh, I forgot to mention. Before that happened, before they brought my husband back, the midwife was like, “Your cervix is like steel and we want you to take some medication to soften it.” She was like, “Don't worry. It's homeopathic.” I was like, “I don't want to take anything homeopathic. That's fake medicine. I don't want to take that.” She was super insistent. I was like, “Okay, let me see what this is. I'll look it up online and tell you if I want to take it or not.” She handed the pill to me and it was Tylenol with codeine. Meagan: What?Katie: And I was like, “Excuse me?” I was like, “This is not homeopathic medication. This is a narcotic.” She was like, “No, no. This is homeopathic.” I said, “No no. This is a narcotic.”Meagan: Like, “I'm not dumb.”Katie: That really shut me down. Also with this labor land, I was like, “Maybe codeine means something else in German?” I got super confused, do you know what I mean? In hindsight, I've given patients Tylenol with codeine hundreds of times. I know what Tylenol with codeine is. But in that moment, I got confused about it. I was in this labor land kind of thing. Meagan: Yeah. Katie: But it totally set off my fight-or-flight reflex because it freaked me out. “Is she lying to me? Or does she just not know? I don't get this.” I really told my husband that I wanted to leave and he was like, “Where are we going to go? Everywhere else is full.” And I was like, “Well, I'll just stay in the bath. I don't know.”At some point, I got out of the bath and I had been up basically the entire night before, just trying sleeping in between contractions. I wanted to lay down and rest. She came in and was like, “Oh no, you need to get up and move around.” She made us go for a walk around the hospital. This was probably 4:00 or 5:00 AM. I just felt so uncomfortable, I didn't want to be walking around the hospital. I wanted to be in my own little cave. So we went back and then she told me, “Well, you haven't had your baby yet so we're going to have to discharge you to the antenatal ward.” I was like, “Okay, at midnight when I got here, you said my baby was coming imminently and I had to stay and now you want to discharge me. If you're going to discharge me, I'm going to go home. I'm not going to go labor on an antenatal ward.” She was like, “Oh, let me talk about it with my staff at our staffing meeting,” blah blah blah. I don't know whatever came of that but I was so weirded out by it. Meagan: Yeah.Katie: And then like at 6:00 or so in the morning, she came in and they were again like, “Your cervix is as hard as steel. You need something to relax it.” Again she said, “I have something homeopathic for you.” It was Demerol.I again was like, “This is not homeopathy. These are narcotics.” I got really mad and I even said to her face. I looked her in the eye and I said, “It's appropriate to give patients narcotics or birthing women narcotics if they want them but you can't lie about it.” That's so unethical. That's not okay. I was so shocked by it. I had thought about it and I didn't really want to take narcotics. I'm intolerant of them. I've had some dental procedures and they make me really confused and I didn't want them during labor. But I thought at this point, it had been like 30 hours, and I thought, “Well, maybe it's time to try something.”My mom had always said when she had us that she would get a shot of Demerol and dilate to 10 centimeters in an hour from that. “Well, maybe I need that too. Maybe I'm like my mom.” I did consent to it but I felt like pushed into it. I kind of more consented to it because I wanted them to leave me alone. I told her again, “I'm really sensitive to narcotics. They make me confused. Please give me like the lowest dose.” I got my records later and I know now that it was the max dose and she had mixed other things into it so I totally became delirious. I could not cope with the contraction pain anymore because I didn't have this ability to be like, “Oh, I'm a flower, my cervix. Every contraction brings me one step–.” Being able to work my way through it was gone and it was sheer pain. They don't help me. It was just downhill from there. I didn't have the strength anymore to leave. At some point, they tried to make me take another walk. I was so dizzy that I kept falling over. Oh my gosh, if my patient was this dizzy, I wouldn't let them get out of bed but they were forcing me to go for a walk. They told us to leave the hospital and walk around outside. I remember standing at a red light and totally swaying back and forth clutching onto my husband so I wouldn't pass out. I was like, “I should not be outside. This is ridiculous.”So we went back and I'm not exactly sure what happened all afternoon. I forgot to mention we had a new midwife now. At some point in the afternoon they come in and say, “Well, you haven't had your baby yet. You're only a couple of centimeters dilated. We're going to start you on Pitocin.”Katie: And I said, “No, no. I don't want Pitocin.” They said, “Too bad. We're giving it to you anyway.” And I again was not in any kind of state to fight or protect myself. They started it and I didn't have any pain management at all. This was like 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon so it had been like 10 hours since I had that Demerol. My contractions were always that really bad back pain. It was so bad with the Pitocin. I ended up getting an epidural which was such a bad moment for me because I actually had more anxiety about getting an epidural. I have a fear of being paralyzed and I thought, “I absolutely don't want an epidural.” I ended up getting one and it didn't really work. They just kept turning the Pitocin up. And I kept telling them, “This isn't working. Can you get anesthesia here? There are things you can do to fix it.” They wouldn't do anything.They kept telling me, “If it doesn't work, it just doesn't work.” I was like, “That's not true. I know a lot about epidurals and there are a lot of things you can do.”At some point, I had realized that I hadn't peed in 12 hours and tried to go to the bathroom and nothing came out. I asked them in they could put a catheter in so I could pee. This midwife just kept ignoring me. I was like, “I really need a catheter.” I had felt really hot. I was like, “Can you take my temperature? I'm worried I have a fever.”Meagan: Oh my gosh. Katie: I also kept asking her if she would help me because I was laying in the bed, halfway falling out of it and I needed some help to reposition myself. I kept pushing the call light and she would come in and yell at me for pressing the call light. And after a few hours of this I finally had a little bit of fight back in me. I remember screaming at my husband, “You need to get me another midwife right now!”They must have heard us fighting outside because somebody else came in. I was like, “I need a catheter. I need someone to take my temperature and I need some help moving around.” So she catheterized me and there was like 500 milileters of urine in my bladder. She took my temperature and luckily that was normal. She helped me get up out of bed so I was sitting on a ball. At that point, I realized that the pump for the epidural was sitting right there. I remember turning to look at it and the pump wasn't even on. I was like, “I've been complaining. I have no idea what happened if it had been off the whole time or something, but it was supposed to be a patient-controlled epidural and it wasn't even on. I was like, “What is this?”At this point, it was midnight. I had been going on 48 hours now and only at like 4 centimeters dilated. They just kept telling me, The only way you're ever going to have this baby is if we keep turning the Pitocin up.” I kept asking them, “Are there positions we can do?”I also forgot to mention in the beginning that the people in Germany told me, “You don't need a doula in Germany because the midwives do all of that kind of stuff.” I never got a single suggestion on how to maybe reposition the baby or if there was anything. I kept asking, “Is he posterior? Is something weird going on?” “No, no. Everything's fine.” With these Pitocin contractions, I felt this pull in my pelvic floor. It felt like my body was fighting against it. I can't believe this is working. I can feel my muscle close with that. 29:44 Katie's C-section Katie: They told me that wasn't a thing, blah blah blah. My cervix had started swelling. And they were kind of like, “The only way you're going to have this baby is having a C-section,” and you know, that's just what happened. I ended up consenting to it because I was so afraid that they were going to do something to harm me. There had been like so much–Meagan: Weirdness.Katie: Weird stuff. I'm not going to die because childbirth is dangerous but because these people don't know what they're doing and they're somehow going to hurt us. And the C-section was just awful. I could remember on the way down, they knocked a bunch of the equipment over that was attached to me. When they started operating, I had a strip on my right side where I could feel everything. I was like, “I can feel what you're doing there. I was screaming.” The birth of my baby was the worst moment that I could imagine. It not joyful or happy at all. What has happened? What has happened to me? How did this happen to me? I just like couldn't believe it. Meagan: Yeah.Katie: What else could I have done differently? I don't know. How did everything get out of control? It was just crazy. I ended up having really bad PTSD afterward that I would have nightmares about the surgery. Postpartum was so rough because I had no connection to my baby and I honestly resented him almost in some ways where it was like, “If I hadn't had you, I wouldn't have gone through this.” It was just really hard to work through.I was also so mad at my husband. I really thought, “How could you? Where were you? You were supposed to be my support. You were supposed to help me.” I don't think he really got it. I kept telling him how much he was going to have to help me. “I really needed you to be strong in that moment and you just weren't.” It was a really low point in our relationship, too. 32:06 Preparing for VBACKatie: But he promised me that if we ever had any other kids, he would try to make it up to me. “Let's try to work through this.” And I got some treatment for my PTSD and I ended up taking Zoloft. I obviously listened to the stories on VBAC Link and other podcasts and I realized this is not unique. This is happening to a lot of people. I really knew that I wanted to have a VBAC. I never really thought there was something wrong with me. I thought it was the way I had been mishandled and that they didn't follow guidelines and that it was really inappropriate care I received. If it had been better, maybe I would have been able to do it. Anyway, I had a lot of anxiety about doctors and I didn't think, “If I have another baby, I want to go to the hospital. What am I gonna do? If I ever have another baby, should I go back to the United States to do it? Can I review clinical literature from my job?” And just from listening to podcasts and your story, Meagan, and the others, I realized an out-of-hospital birth is probably the best option for me if I ever have another baby to have a VBAC. I found a paper from 2019 about birth in Germany, about VBACs in Germany. And the success rate was like 40% in the hospitals to 60% in the birth center and 80% if you planned a home birth. They said that the outcomes for mom and baby were similar. So I said, “That's it. We have real literature that we're going to have a home birth if I ever have another kid.” Before I even got pregnant, I researched home-birth midwives in the city. I started speaking to a doula before I even got pregnant. And I had signed with her and she said that even if she wasn't available when I got pregnant again, she would help me find someone who was. I actually ended up getting pregnant really fast. We got pregnant on the first try and that was about– my son was 14 months when we got pregnant again. They're 22 months apart. 34:34 Second pregnancyKatie: I was like, “I'm going to do this. This is super important to me. I really need to do this.” I listened to VBAC Link stories and other VBAC stories every day. There's some other podcasts that I listened to. I read all the books like Ina May's Guide to Childbirth and Childbirth as a Rite of Passenger by Rachel Reed and I was just only thinking and talking about birth. That was the only thing I paid attention to in that time.I read all the guidelines from every major organization and I read a lot of the literature that they used to come up with the recommendations. I had pretty strong opinions then that I would be okay with. But mostly I just wanted to be left alone. I didn't want any interventions because in my mind, with my sons birth, the intervention is what had ruined it. Katie: I worked out a lot with my first pregnancy, too. But with my VBAC baby, I did the Mamastefit fitness program.Meagan: Love Gina.Katie: And at the end, there's a lot of focus on relaxing your pelvic floor. I started seeing an osteopath. We really worked on trying to relax my pelvic floor. I mostly focused on stretching. I kept doing the HypnoBirth stuff. The pregnancy went on. I registered at a hospital just as a backup just in case we needed to transfer. I went to the registration appointment at this hospital. They were supposed to be the best VBAC hospital and they claimed to be the best VBAC hospital in the city, but the doctor there was so anti-VBAC and just talking about, “Oh, you are causing all of this risk if this happens.” I was really kind of shocked by it and at one point, she was like, “Oh, we need to do this ultrasound,” and I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you want to do this ultrasound for?” She was like, “Well, we need to make sure your baby isn't too big and that your scar is thick enough.” I said, “Well, I know that those growth scans, you might as well flip a coin so I'm not interested and also, there is not any research supporting the use of ultrasound measurements of the scar with predicting the risk of rupture so no, I decline.” She said, “Well, no you have to do it.” I said, “No, I don't and I'm not doing it unless you can tell me what evidence you use to come up with these recommendations and what are the cutoffs? How thin is too thin is too thin for the scar? You have to be able to tell me that and you have to tell me what evidence you've used to come up with that definition and I will not consent to the ultrasound until you tell me that.” She just couldn't do it. She kept just going on about like, “Well, you have to. You have to.” I said, “I don't have to do anything. I don't consent. If you don't know the answer, find someone that does.” My doula was with me and she ended up going. This doctor ended up going and getting their boss. She came in and my doula had told them something about how we were just planning this as backup for a home birth. They were like, “You absolutely cannot have a home birth.” I was like, “I absolutely will. That is my choice and you can't tell me what to do. I'm doing that.” They were just like, “No, no. You can't do that. You can come here and have the birth.” I said to them, “I know I'm going to need a long time to labor. I was in labor for 48 hours with my son. I need a lot of time. There was nothing medically wrong with my with my son. It was just this pure, bureaucratic nonsense. I was pressured into it because I took too long. I know that and I need support to get through a long labor and it's safer for me to be at home and it's safest if there is a midwife at home with me that can check on the baby and make the recommendation when it's time to transfer. That's the best course of action.” They were like, “No, no. You can only plan to birth here.” I was like, “Well, if that happens, then I'm going to be home alone without anybody there to check on the baby. How is that safe?” They just kept saying, “You can't do that. You can't have that here.” Katie: We ended up not having a backup hospital. That was kind of a tough conversation but I was really proud of myself that I had stood my ground so much. Just a lot of women talk about how you always want to be polite and non-confrontational. I was like, “I'm not going to be that way. I'm going to demand answers. I'm not going to do things just to be nice.” I was very proud of myself that although I was basically banned from that hospital, I was proud of myself for sticking up for myself. I really felt and the literature also supported that homebirth was a safe option for me, but we went into it not having a backup hospital. 42:01 Labor beginsKatie: I'll move on to the actual labor and birth with my VBAC baby. So that also started around midnight. I woke up feeling kind of funny. I went to the bathroom and a little bit of amniotic fluid came out. I was like, “Oh, great.” I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do in that situation so I got on my birth ball and bounced. I listened to an episode from Evidence-Based Birth about the premature rupture of membranes. I listened to that and was like, “No, no. I feel best about waiting for labor to start on its own.” I kept having some mild cramping throughout the night and then around 5:00 AM, I went to the bathroom again and I had some bloody show. Around 9:00, I texted my doula and my midwife just to let them know. My midwife, Julia was like, “Let me come over. I have a lot going on today. Let me just come over and see how you are doing.”I was like, “You can, but I'm not really having any contractions. I'm just having some cramps.” She came over and we chatted. She offered to do a vaginal exam to see where I was at. I said, “No, I'm not really in labor yet. I don't want to risk it.” She left and then a few hours later, I started having “contractions”. I was so excited because they were actually contractions, this wave feeling in my uterus because with my son, it had always been this stabbing pain in the back. I'd never felt my uterus doing anything. I was like, “Oh my gosh. Everything I did worked. I'm having real contractions.” I was so excited. We just kept working through them. We made a plan to have my son go over to my sister-in-law. I was convinced that oh, maybe labor won't really start. I don't know what I was thinking, but my husband and I made a plan to just have a nice dinner together and send our son off so if I went into labor, he would have somewhere to stay and if not, we would have one more nice evening together before the baby came. But I was in denial. The contractions kept ramping up throughout the day. Finally, at dinnertime, we were eating our dinner and my husband was like, “Do you want me to call Johanna?” Johanna is our doula and I was like, “No, it's way too soon. It's only been a few hours.” He was like, “Are you sure?” Then I realized. I took that as a sign that he needed the support. I was like, “Great. Let's have her come over.” I totally thought she would come over and be like, “Yeah, she's fine. Let's go to bed and we'll take care of this later.” She came over and supported me through some contractions and was like, “Hmm, how would you feel about having your midwife come over?” I was like, “it's way too soon. It's only been 7 hours. The contractions are too far apart and too short.” She was like, “No, I've been timing them and they are over a minute long and three minutes apart.” I was like, “I guess you can call her if you want to.”They called her and she listened to me having some contractions on the phone and was like, “Yep, that sounds like active labor. I'm coming over.” She came over and we all labored together. Katie: At some point, I started having back labor again. During the day, it had been this really nice wave feeling, but then the back labor started to come in. Around 11:30ish, my midwife checked me and she told me that my cervix was really posterior and that the baby was actually just pressing on the lower segment of my uterus. I didn't want to know how much I was dilated, but I knew that it was probably not much based on what she was saying from that.Later, after the birth, I found out I hadn't dilated at all. She actually manually moved the cervix down and held it under the baby's head and had me do a couple of contractions like that. It was awful. She really recommended that I try to lay down as much as possible during contractions because her theory was that something was pulling my cervix back so if I was moving around too much, it would keep pulling it back. It was so painful to lay down. She ended up leaving to go get some sleep. I kept laboring like that throughout the night. I got super nauseated. I was throwing up. It was just the only way I could get through contractions was to sit on my birthing ball. I had hung a sling up and I would hold onto the sling because I just could not have anything touching my pelvis. It felt like along my SI joints, they were going to just split in two.We labored throughout the night like that and they really did a really good job supporting me. They made sure– I had told my husband that his one job was to make sure I was eating or drinking and that after every contraction he should offer me something to drink and he did that to the point of annoyance during labor but he kept doing it and they did a really good job. 47:11 Getting support from her birth teamKatie: Around 7:30, throughout the night, the back pain was getting worse and worse. Around 7:30, we decided to call the midwife and have her come back. This is probably the first moment that I realized, “I think I'm going to need some help here.” I had read so many books talking about how childbirth is a physiological process and everyone can do it. You can do hard things. I really believed that, but it was really that I was starting to realize that, “Yeah, the majority of women are going to get through it fine, but I'm in that minority that really maybe does need some help.” I didn't say anything at that point. My midwife came over and again, I didn't know it at the time, but she checked me and I hadn't progressed at all throughout the night. My cervix had slipped back again into a posterior position. She did that thing where she held it in place again and really had me try to be laying down as much as possible to again with her theory about how my cervix was being pulled back. It was just so painful but it worked.I started progressing which was really exciting, but at the same time, I started having this weird contraction. It felt like my body was doing a kegel uncontrollably and involuntarily doing kegels during contractions. I could feel my pelvic floor closing up on itself. I was like, “I thought that was just because the Pitocin was on too high for my first birth, but this is my own natural oxytocin and I'm having this feeling again.”I kept laboring throughout the day. They somehow found a TENS machine for my back pain, but anyway, around 11:00 or noon, I said to them, “I think I'm going to need some help. I'm not sure anymore.” I had been so adamant during my entire pregnancy that I absolutely do not want to transfer to the hospital. Only if there is a medical reason and they were like, “No, you are doing so good. Let's stay home.” They really kept working with me, but by 4:00 or 5:00, I was like, “I think I really just need to accept that I need help.” We did a lot of massage and position changes. We did all of the Spinning Babies stuff. I could not get my pelvic floor to relax. It had been at this point 30 hours and I was like, “I did everything right this time. I feel safe. I set up a beautiful birthing space. I'm not scared. I want to have this baby and it's just not working. I just need to accept that. I don't know. I need some help.” 50:12 Transferring to the hospitalKatie: We went to the hospital and I thought I was going to be treated like crap because I was a home birth transfer and I didn't register ahead of time. We were just so lucky. We got the greatest people and I remember– I'm going to cry. They placed the epidural and I was finally doing some intake paperwork with the midwife that was going to be taking over and I was like, “I know you think I'm crazy, but this is so important to me. I have to do this.” She said, “Of course, you're going to do it.” It just felt like, I don't even know. It was just like, “Yeah, I am going to do it.” We talked to my anesthesiologist and I was telling him about what had happened at the last hospital. We talked about how I was really scared about another C-section because I had felt it during my first one and I didn't want another C-section. We talked about it. I was like, “You know if I need to have another C-section, I want to be put under. I don't need to experience that again. As much as I want to be awake for meeting my baby, I don't need that to feel it.” We had an agreement that if it ended up going toward a C-section, he would put me under. I felt like it was such a night and day difference. The staff at this hospital was again, way more modern. The staff was so respectful and always asked my permission to do things. We always talked about the plan and what we were going to do and explained the benefits and risks and all of those things.I had to get a Pitocin drip. I understood that with getting the epidural but they were like, “We won't turn it up too high. We will go slow. We'll probably have to break your water at some point, but we're going to wait until as close to the birth as possible.” They really laid out a plan. They checked me 2 hours after I had gotten the epidural and I had progressed to a 7. I just burst into tears. I had just gotten the epidural. At that point, I wasn't sure if it was the right choice or if I had just basically signed up for a C-section by going to the hospital. I didn't know at that point, but since I was at a 7, I was like, “Oh my gosh. I am going to make it.” It took another 10 hours, but I made it to 10. Throughout the night, I had the same issues with the epidural not working, but this anesthesiologist worked his butt off. He came in and he tried so many things like repositioning it and trying different medications, trying different types of concentrations. He tried so many things to help me and I could really tell that he felt bad that he couldn't totally take the pain away. Just that alone was enough. I was like, “It's okay. As long as my pelvic floor is relaxing, I can get through it.” 53:32 Feeling intense scar painKatie: At some point, around 4:00 AM, they gave me a really big bolus because they wanted me to get some sleep but I couldn't feel anything. I was completely numb. They said, “Okay, why don't you labor down a little bit? Your baby looks fine on the monitor. Everything is okay.” Around 6:00-6:30, I woke up and that bolus had completely worn of. This back pain that I was having was in that moment a thousand times worse because her head was down in the birth canal. I could feel. I remember checking and I could feel. I could only go about a fingertip in and could feel her head. It was so intense. My pelvis felt like it was on fire. I thought I was going to burst into flame. They had me start pushing and she was right there, but she was just not descending anymore. At some point, I remember they had me try to get onto my hands and knees. I was like a wild animal so I can't really remember everything, but they had me get on hands and knees. I realized, “Oh, I don't want to be on hands and knees because I can't brace my scar when I'm pushing,” then I realized, “Oh, my scar is kind of hurting.” Then I was like, “Why is nobody else worried about my scar hurting?” I was like, “Oh, I haven't said anything to anybody that my scar was hurting.” It was getting more and more painful. I was finally like, “Oh my gosh, my scar, my scar. It hurts so bad.” The midwife got a doctor to come in and they did an ultrasound and the doctor said, “Your scar looks fine.” It just kept hurting and it was hurting more and more. They were cleaning up the ultrasound machine and the pain wasn't going away in between contractions. Even though they were saying everything was fine, I just felt like things weren't fine. I almost had an out-of-body experience where I envisioned a future where my uterus ruptured and I got rushed out to the OR and it was really nasty. I was like, “No. I can't let that happen,” so I started yelling at them. I was like, “A vacuum, I need a vacuum.” They were like, “Are you sure?” I was like, “Yeah, yeah. I really need a vacuum. I need a vacuum right now.” I remember the doctor asking the midwife, “Well, how long has she been pushing?” In my mind, it had been 10 minutes and they were like, “Oh, it's been over 2 hours.” I was like, “Yes. Yes. Now. I need my baby to be born now, like right now.” 56:23 Asking for the vacuumKatie: They got a vacuum and pulled her out. I can't describe it. Although there was so much intervention and stuff, I felt like it was this home birth experience that everyone talks about because I got this crazy flood of oxytocin and I just bawled my eyes out for an hour and I felt like you know when you are a kid and it's Christmas morning and you've been waiting for weeks to get your Christmas present and you finally get to open it and you're so excited? It was like that feeling times a million. It was just an incredible feeling. She was there. I didn't know at that point if she was a girl or a boy so I got to look and I was like, “Oh my gosh. It's a girl.” It was just a really incredible moment. Meagan: Yes. So amazing that you were supported and that they listened to you. Katie: Yeah. I mean, my husband and I have talked about how this is the hospital that I should have had my son at. I don't know if I would have had a different outcome. I might have still ended up with a C-section there, but I don't think I would have had the same amount of trauma because the staff was so respectful and they were very capable and competent. It made just such a huge difference. Meagan: Absolutely. It sucks that a lot of the time, it comes to that– where we are and who is in that space. Katie: Exactly, yeah. Meagan: You know, we can't always control that which is a little nervewracking sometimes. We've just got to trust, but I love that you– I mean, honestly even with the first birth, like you said, you got to a point where you weren't in your brain-brain because you were in labor land, but you were really amazing at advocating for yourself overall. I just want to say congrats on that because that's really, really hard to do. Katie: Thank you. 58:42 Katie's advice for listenersMeagan: I don't know if you have any advice for listeners to be able to have your voice be heard or find that space inside of your soul that can come out and say what you need when you need it, and how you need it, but that's a really hard thing to do in labor. Katie: Yeah, I would say that I think it really made a difference that the doula was there. I think it created another layer of protection where she could run interference too and take on some of that burden. I think it was a little bit of her. I was like, “A vacuum, a vacuum, I need a vacuum.” She was the one like, “Yes, yes. She is asking for a vacuum. She wants that baby to come out now.” I didn't have to carry on the fight anymore because there was a moment in that when they said, “Everything on the CTG looks good.” I could have said, “Well, if they are saying that everything looks fine, maybe I could keep trying,” but I felt so strongly in myself that the baby needed to come out. Since I didn't have to keep fighting for myself, I verbalized what I needed and she carried the torch basically I would say, it really made a big difference that she was able to keep saying, “Yeah, yeah. She wants the vacuum now. Let's get it.” I guess preparing for a VBAC, you have to read all of the stuff and know because people will come and tell you things. You really need to be able to come back and say, “Actually, the guidelines don't support that.” I think it helps too if you have real citations. Do you know what I mean? You can actually say, “There is a paper that is supportive of this or not supportive.” You have to be able to have that knowledge almost and feel really confident that you know it to have those discussions with people as well. Meagan: Yeah, having the evidence is– not only knowing the evidence but having the evidence. That was something​​ that was really important to Julie and I when we were writing the course was not only giving the evidence but sharing the citations for those. Yeah. I mean, going back to the scar thickness and this and that. You were like, “Listen, no and no. I'm not going to do either of these things,” and they really couldn't come in with the evidence. That was so clear that the evidence wasn't there. They just wanted to bully you into making the decision that they wanted you to make. Katie: Right. Meagan: So having that knowledge and of course, having the evidence in general, but having those actual sites within links on your phone or in a manual or whatever. Katie: Exactly yeah. Meagan: So then you can be like, “It says this right here. Do you see anything different? Do you have anything new and updated?” Katie: Right. 1:01:47 The Friedman CurveMeagan: So talking about new and updated within your story, one of the things you mentioned that you wanted to talk about was the outdated and poor quality research that was done by the Friedman curve that is still being used. Do you want to talk about that at all? Katie: Yeah. That was something I came to the conclusion when I read a lot of papers and in my first birth and in my documentation, the diagnosis was “prolonged labor and failure to progress”. I was like, “What does that even mean?” I couldn't really find a definition in the literature of what prolonged labor was and what I realized was that it's way more that there are economic reasons to speed up labor, not clinical reasons. That's why it was so important to me. I was like, “If I need to have my baby by C-section, I will proudly walk into that OR if there is a medical reason or a clinical reason, but not a bad management reason or not because it's just taking too long.” I just couldn't find anything really convincing and one of the big criticisms of the research that Friedman did was that it was only a very narrow population at one hospital in the 50s. In the 50s, everyone was getting twilight sleep and all of the babies were being pulled out with forceps. It really can't be applied to us as modern birthing women. Yeah, there's an idea of on average, women take so long, this 12-24 hours. That's about true, but there are corner cases like mine or if I remember correctly from your story. You were also in labor for a long time. Meagan: Mine too, yep. Katie: Just because you're in labor for a long time doesn't mean that it's bad. The question is how is Mom doing? Is she healthy? Is baby healthy? If the answer is yes and also if Mom is up to keep going, because I think there are a lot of stories on The VBAC Link Podcast too of women who decided, “I'm only going to labor for so long and if I'm not dilating, then I'm going to call it.” I also think that's great that some women make that judgment call of, “I really want a VBAC, but I just don't want to do it for days and days.” I had the opposite decision for myself where I was like, “I'm going to do this until my baby comes out unless there is a clear medical reason that we need a C-section.” Meagan: Right. Katie: Yeah, I think it's just important to know that there's actually not great research for what is normal and just because you are outside of normal doesn't mean it's bad or dangerous. Meagan: Yeah. I agree. We're going to provide the little bit of a risk factor in Germany specifically with the different locations and then Evidence-Based Birth who we love and adore, they actually have a blog on the Friedman's Curve. They talked about how in 2014– you guys, it's 2024 so 10 years ago– ACOG came together with the Society of Maternal-Fetal Medicine, so MFM, and they published new guidelines on labor progress. They said their new “normal” of labor is longer than the Friedman definition. There is more room for flexibility such as when an epidural is being used. In addition, new timelines were developed to define when labor progresses abnormally slowly. They are recognizing that sometimes labor does progress abnormally in their minds. That's abnormal to them. New terms were defined with purpose and they talk about how it's changed from 4 centimeters to 6 centimeters and things like that. I mean, this is a really wonderful blog. I'm going to drop it in here but I love how you talked about that. Just because it doesn't go as someone thinks it should go or the lack of really true evidence all around shows it should go doesn't mean it's bad. It doesn't mean something is wrong and it doesn't always mean you have to do something different. It just means you may need more time. 1:06:16 Trusting your intuitionMeagan: Now, you may want to do something different. You may feel you need to do something different like transfer to the hospital. These are things where we have to tune into that intuition and think, “Okay, what is my body telling me? What am I supposed to be doing?” But long labor, you guys, kind of sucks sometimes to have to keep going and keep going but at the same time, it's so amazing that your body can do that and is doing that. We have to trust that. We have to trust that process and trust our intuition. Katie: Yeah, and I have to say my first labor was 48 hours and I had the C-section. It's a trauma and this one was 45 hours and it was super intense the entire time basically for at least 38 hours of it I would say, but I can barely remember it or even connect to it anymore because I was just so happy to have the VBAC. I always had this attitude that it's just a day for me or a few days that it's going to be tough, but it's going to be so great afterward and that's really the attitude that I had. For me, that's been true. Postpartum is always hard, but I have so much more resilience this time and I really had that attitude that “I can do it. I can do hard things,” and I can. Meagan: You can. Yes. I love that you pointed that out. Yeah, it's a few days but it's a few days that led to this cute little baby that's joining us today on the podcast. Well, we will make sure to have the links for those two blogs that we mentioned and the study. I just want to say congratulations. Amazing job. Katie: Thank you. Meagan: Really good job of advocating for yourself. To the point of having a doula, even when those doulas aren't speaking out loud for you, they have this space that they hold that makes you feel like you can and then they support you and rally behind you. I love that you mentioned that because I mean, even with myself with my own birth as a doula at that point, having doulas, I truly felt like that, like I was able to have the extra voice that I wanted to speak. It came out so I'm so happy that you had your doula and I'm so happy for you and congratulations again. 1:08:56 Doula supportKatie: I just wanted to mention too with my doula if she ever hears this, she was with us for 38 hours and just– Meagan: Oof, so long. Katie: We had a contract. There was an exchange of money, but at the same time, I would have understood if she had said, “I've been away from my own children for so long. I need to go check on them.” She really stayed with us and helped us that entire time. It has just been the biggest gift that somebody would set aside their own needs to make this difference in our family. I don't know– I wasn't very good at expressing that to her. I feel like in the moment, I didn't have the words for it, but I hope if there are any other doulas listening, the work that you are doing makes such a huge difference. Meagan: I love that. Thank you for sharing. Katie: I also wanted to say thanks to everyone who has ever shared a story about actually having a uterine rupture because listening to those stories, they all always mentioned that they felt that something wasn't right and having heard those stories really gave me the confidence to say, “Things aren't right. I need to get my baby out.” I know it's scary, but if anyone is planning a VBAC, I think it's important to also hear those stories as well because it really empowered me to get the help that I thought I needed and to stand up and advocate for that. Meagan: Yeah, I love that you touched on that because those stories, even with repeat C-section stories, are really hard to listen to or allow in your space when that's not what you are wanting, but a lot of those times, if you can find the space to join in on those episodes, they really do bring a lot of education as well. I think if it does end in a C-section or something like this, it can also bring some validation and healing weirdly enough by knowing these episodes. Katie: Yeah, I agree. Meagan: Yeah.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Dr. Katie Lee is a dentist, speaker, author, and coach who lives in Aurora, Colorado. Dr. Lee graduated from University of Illinois at Chicago in 2010 and was an owner-partner in over 80 DSO supported dental practices throughout the US and served as Clinical Partner overseeing 5 states. Currently, she consults for health technology companies and provides implant education for general dentists. Dr. Lee has two passions in her profession: dentistry itself and making other dentists successful. Her passion about the oral systemic health link comes from personal experience. Dr. Lee was involved in an ATV accident as a teenager, which left her without many teeth and rendered her jaw immobile. Dr. Lee experienced how oral health affects systemic health and the benefits of dental implants. Her first-hand journey in recovering from the effects of dental trauma led her to specialize her career on the mouth-body connection® and dental implants. Dr. Lee searches for proven technologies that improve clinical outcomes and the patient experience and loves to educate her peers on those technologies. Dr. Lee authored a book entitled Saved By the Mouth to educate patients and clinicians on the importance of oral health. Dr. Lee has won many accolades, including Top 40 under 40 Dentists in America, and International Woman of the Year in Dentistry. She has been featured on local Fox and NBC news stations discussing the importance of oral health.     https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/   https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds   For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:   https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/           Transcript:   Michelle Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee. Katie: Thanks. I'm really excited to be here. Michelle: I'm so excited to have you on actually, this is a first, I have never spoken to a dentist on this podcast, but it is such an important topic because there's such a correlation between inflammation in the mouth and also unexplained infertility. And I'm very excited to get started before we get started. I would love for you to give us a little bit of a background on yourself, how you got into the work that you do. Katie: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I feel honored that I'm, I'm the first. Hopefully, I don't mess it up for the rest of us dentists out there. My journey into dentistry was. Of tragedy. So when I was in high school, about 14 years old, I was involved in a ATV four wheeler accident where I crashed into a telephone pole headfirst without a helmet on, broke every bone in my face from my eyebrows down and naturally, or I [00:01:00] guess as expected, lost a ton of teeth and my jaws were wired shut immediately, even though I had lots of teeth that were displaced and broken. Katie: And, they were wired shut for two months. I'm I couldn't eat and so I was on a liquid diet and My family didn't really know anything about nutrition. So I was Having pudding jello ice cream, you know with Hershey's syrup box mashed potatoes You know all the things that you should not eat to be healthy or maintain your teeth And so I just started developing a ton of dental infection And, , that combined with not being able to eat nutritious foods, you know, my body really started shutting down. Katie: , I lost a ton of weight, my liver enzymes spiked, my kidneys started shutting down. And so I learned from a very early age just how much your oral health affects. Not only your mental and emotional health, but your, your physical health as well. And, you know, it was nine surgeries in four years, , that it [00:02:00] took to reconstruct my face and my jaw. Katie: And then once that was done and only then was I able to my teeth and, and finally replace the missing teeth and fix my smile. So that really. Got me interested in what I do. And then once I got into dentistry, you know, I started going down this journey of oral systemic health. And from a personal experience, I had a lot of fertility issues. Katie: I went through about six years in fertility treatment. And so just really started diving into, you know, how can. How does the mouth affect this and what can I do as a dentist to help other people? Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that I think a lot of people do not I don't want to really correlate, but let's, let's actually really break this down because like , how can your teeth impact your body?  Katie: From a high level? Start there? Yeah. So, , there's a couple different ways that the teeth and gums are really affected to the rest of the body. And, the first way that I About is bacteria. So our body [00:03:00] has types of microbiomes and the first real microbiome that we get or we're introduced to is the one in our mouth and we get that, you know, we used to always think that babies were sterile. Katie: We know that they are introduced to some bacteria when in utero first microbiome that we get introduced to is through the mom's vaginal canal. And then Through breast milk and from family members when we're kissing, , and, you know, eating and drinking after them, we get this whole microbiome and the microbiome in our mouth is super important because it's what establishes and feeds our gut microbiome. Katie: And so we know that when we develop dysbiosis in the mouth, what actually happens is that bacteria then go through our gum tissue, or we swallow 80 trillion bacteria a day. And so the bacteria that are in our mouth. We'll go to other places in our body that they're not supposed to be and start to cause damage. Katie: So that's one way that the mouth affects it. And then the other way is through inflammation. So again, when we have these foreign invaders in our mouth, what we know [00:04:00] is that our body elicits an immune response. And that immune response, unfortunately, doesn't stay localized to our mouth. It will break down our gum tissue, making our gum tissue permeable, again, allowing what's in the mouth to get to the rest of the body. Katie: But it also triggers an inflammatory response in other parts of the body, too. And this becomes really important in fertility, because that's when people can start to develop things like endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, and things like Michelle: yeah. And also, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about all these like alcohol rinses, you know, mouthwashes. So that's huge because people are like, oh, I want to get rid of my mouth bacteria because I want to really clean mouth. So like, But that messes up the good bacteria. So talk about that. I mean, you know more about this than I do Katie: Yeah, no, I mean, that is such a good point. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because The way I was trained, even 10, you know, back in, I graduated in 2010, you know, we were [00:05:00]taught the, the more it burns, the better it's cleaning, right? Like you want something in there that's burning. You want something that's 99 kills 99. Katie: 9 percent of all bacteria. But what we know is that's actually really bad. And to your point, , those types of products are not selective. So they're killing everything that's there. The good and the bad, when really we want to control the bad, support the good. and kind of let the body do its own thing. Katie: The other thing that's damaging about alcohol mouthwashes is that it dries out your tissues. And we know that when you have dry mouth or dry tissues, the bad bacteria love to go to those surfaces and take up shop. And it really supports them colonizing and growing their little, , microbial communities. Katie: So we want to have saliva. Saliva protects our teeth and gums from bad bacteria. So an alcohol containing product is not good for our health. Michelle: Now what does a person do if they were a c section Katie: Yeah. So, you know, there's lots of things that people can do throughout their life to [00:06:00]support their microbiome, you know, C section babies. We know that unfortunately they, they don't get exposed to the. you know, good vaginal bacteria during birth, but there's lots of things that they can do to support their microbiome. Katie: So I'm a, you know, people always talk about taking probiotics and probiotics are great. And what probiotics do is they're actually going to put bacteria into the body. , so it'll, it'll help replenish the bacteria that is missing from the gut. What people also don't understand is that they need to feed the good bacteria that they already have. Katie: So you cannot forget to take. Prebiotics, eat prebiotic food, take prebiotic, supplements. That way you can feed and help nourish the bacteria that's already there. Michelle: Yeah, Katie: We're introduced to so many bacteria every single minute of the day. You know, I, I wouldn't be as concerned once you get into adulthood about having a c section or being a c section baby because by that time you've been exposed to really everything that you need in your life. Katie: At that point it's just about nourishing and keeping it in balance. Michelle: Yeah. For sure.[00:07:00] It's interesting cause I was actually at, , microbiome labs. So are you familiar with them? So they actually have an enzyme like mouth. It's like a mint freshener, but it's like an enzyme one. And there was a guy who was talking about oral health. It was a presenter and he was talking about that and I thought that was really interesting and he also talked about Mouth breathers people who go to sleep and yeah So let's talk about that because that's really important and it's a big thing now people actually tape their mouth Katie: I know, it's just that you don't. Yeah, thank goodness for Instagram, you know, because you'll see someone on Instagram taping their mouth and all of a sudden everyone wants to tape their mouth, so this is really important because You know, there's a really good book out there for people to read called Breath by James Nestor I don't know if you've heard of it. Katie: A patient actually recommended it to me And it basically talks about that over time because of our high processed diet We've gone from eating You know, super fibrous, tough [00:08:00] foods to eating high processed carbohydrates and softer foods. And because of that, the structures of our skull and jaws have actually, , shortened or shrink. Katie: And because we have smaller jaws, it's why we no longer can. Make room for our wisdom teeth. So most people actually have to extract their wisdom teeth now. And what we know is that the smaller our jaws are, the less room in our mouth for our tongue and our airways actually start to shrink. So what happens is when we go to bed at night. Katie: our tongue falls to the back of our mouth and our airway collapses and we essentially start choking on our tongue. And so we start to breathe through our mouth. And the problem with this is our nose is, is such a, an incredible organ. It's designed with. millions and trillions and billions of of cilia in there to filter out the pollutants in the air. Katie: But when we're not breathing through our nose, we're taking in all of that dirty air through our mouth and it goes straight into our oral [00:09:00] cavity. We're introducing new, , microbes into our oral cavity that disrupts our microbiome. We're drying out our tissues. And again, we talked about dry mouth leads to increased bacteria formation, increased plaque formation, but then all that dirty air is also getting into our lung system, , which is not good and will trigger an inflammatory response. Katie: And so people don't realize that mouth breathing. causes or exacerbates allergies, , it also causes oral dysbiosis in the microbiome and therefore gut dysbiosis. And so one of the things that people need to do is to retrain themselves, how to breathe through their nose. So really great way to do that is by mouth taping. Katie: And a lot of patients will say, well, doc, I, you know, I can't breathe through my nose even during the day. And I'll say, well, you've got to retrain yourself how to use that part of your body that you haven't been using forever. So I encourage them to start taping during the day, you know, maybe just do 15 minutes at a time and slowly the nose will start to open up and work again.[00:10:00] Katie: Now, if someone has something more severe, like sleep apnea, they absolutely need to get a sleep test, , to get that diagnosis and then get treatment because. Sleep apnea is where you're actually choking at night. You're not breathing. You're waking up more than five times per hour because your oxygen is desaturating more than, more than 10%. Katie: And so those people need supplemental treatment such as a CPAP or an oral appliance or something like that. But sleep apnea is horrible for your brain. It kills brain cells. It's really hard on your heart and it's fatal if it's left untreated. It's just a matter of when. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Michelle: that's actually really scary I do know that there's a correlation with weight gain And sleep apnea. So like, it's interesting because it's the whole thing. Like if you're taking care of your body and you're healthy, that impacts all the other things in your life, like your sleep. Katie: Definitely. Sleep apnea, what happens is when you, you know, when you're asleep and you stop breathing, what [00:11:00] happens is your body sends this rush of adrenaline to your brain stem to wake you up enough to take a breath. When you're doing that, you're stressing your body out, so cortisol is released. Katie: Cortisol causes systemic inflammation if it's released at high levels over time. , we also know that it, , lowers our insulin Michelle: Right. And then we gain weight because of that. Katie: yes, making us crave carbohydrates, making us gain weight. And so a lot of people have probably noticed that, and I, I notice this all the time. If I don't get a good night's sleep, I, all I want the next day is carbs, right? Katie: Carbs, Michelle: It's the quickest energy. Katie: I want. So it is crucial. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause that's what it is when you're tired, you want quick energy and the body knows instinctively that you'll get it with carbs. Katie: Absolutely. Michelle: course, that's not a very good source of energy. It's not, , an efficient one. Katie: Yeah, you run out of it very quickly. Michelle: And then other questions that I have is over brushing. Michelle: So some people think, okay, after everything that I eat, I'm going to brush my [00:12:00]teeth. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: Yeah, so there's a balance there, right? And what people want to try and avoid is brushing immediately after eating and drinking. Because we know that after you eat and drink, the pH in the mouth is going to go down. So what happens is we put something in our mouth, the mouth is the beginning of our digestive system. Katie: And so our body releases an enzyme in the mouth called amylase. And this amylase is an enzyme that starts to break down the carbohydrates in our mouth. So in order to do that, the pH has to drop. The pH also drops just because most of the stuff we put in our mouth is acidic anyway. And so you combine acidic food and drink with an acidic pH from, from the amylase secretion, and you're setting yourself up for a disaster of erosion and cavities. Katie: And so if you're going to eat or drink something, I always recommend to wait at least 30 minutes, before you brush. But people absolutely need to brush minimum twice a day. I mean that's like non negotiable I always recommend morning and night [00:13:00] if they can get one more in there during the day. That's great But if they can at least do two minutes morning and night, I think people are going to be pretty satisfied with Michelle: yeah, for sure. Now my other question is mercury fillings. Katie: yes Michelle: Yeah, let's talk about that because for a while, oh, it was like no big deal and now they're finding that it is. So it's kind of like brushed off a lot of times. I remember going to the dentist and asking for the white filler and, and he was kind of giving me pushback on that. Michelle: Yeah. Katie: And there's, unfortunately, you know, a lot of dentists out there that still believe that way. , and, you know, I hope your audience doesn't crucify me with this because I don't believe this. But their, their mindset is, and it is true, mercury fillings are stronger than the white composite fillings. Katie: Also, they're less technique sensitive when putting them in so if you're putting in a white composite filling little dental nerd out here You have to have everything completely Isolated [00:14:00]otherwise the white filling won't bond to the tooth and the filling will fail really quickly and the patient will get decay right underneath that Filling when you're packing in the mercury fillings. Katie: I mean, you're literally just Katie: It's called an amalgam, so it's an amalgamation of all this material. And so it doesn't matter if there's saliva. It doesn't matter if there's blood. , because it's not bonding to the two structures. So the dentists don't have to be as careful and think about it. I mean you're working in the mouth where there's tons of saliva and bleeding and things like that. Katie: So they're much Less technique sensitive to put in and they are stronger. , now the downside is they're filled with all kinds of things that are terrible for you. And we know, you know, think if you think about a mercury thermometer, right? There's a very small amount of mercury in that thermometer. But if a thermometer breaks in school, they shut the entire school down and call in a hazmat team to come clean it up, or a biohazardment team to come clean it up. Katie: Yet we're plugging this stuff into people's teeth. And the hard [00:15:00] thing about teeth, or the thing that people need to understand is that teeth are organs. And they have a blood supply, and they have a nerve supply, and to put that, that type of material, especially mercury, near blood supply that's connected to the rest of the body, or nerves that are connected to the rest of the body, in my opinion, is dangerous, you know, if we just use a little bit of common sense. Katie: And so I don't like mercury fillings. And now we're left with a bunch of patients that have them in their head Now, what do we do to remove them because you can't just go in and start Drilling them out and creating all this mercury vapor, right? Because it's not good for the dentist or the patient Michelle: So there's a biological dentists that specifically specialize in removing them. What are your thoughts on that? Katie: I I think it's really important to Go to someone that understands how to remove them correctly correctly. I would not consider myself You know the gold standard biologic dentist, you know, and the fact that I do all zirconia [00:16:00] implants and things like that But I definitely believe in safe amalgam removal because it's actually more dangerous for the provider who's removing the, the mercury filling and the assistant who's suctioning everything out than it is for the patient because we're creating all this vapor that's coming out of the mouth. Katie: Sure, it's coming into your body, but we're the ones that it's getting on our skin. You know, it's settling up next to our thyroid. So a lot of dentists have thyroid issues, myself included. This happened to me early on in my career when I started learning about this, they have fertility issues. , and so it's really important that dentists understand how to remove them safely. Katie: So I, I definitely, if I was having mercury fillings removed, I would make sure my dentist knew how to do it appropriately. Michelle: Yeah. Oh my god. You're giving such good information I really appreciate it because I think these are all questions that people have and you're giving a very well rounded very balanced Information Katie: I always say, you know, there's amalgam dentists, right? Like the traditional You know, every day dentist , and then there's the biologic dentist that do everything on the opposite end of the spectrum. Katie: I would say I'm [00:17:00] over halfway to the biologic dentist, but not all the way quite there. Michelle: Well, I guess it's kind of like traditional medicine. Katie: Yes. Traditional medicine. Yes, Michelle: It's, it's a little bit more of a holistic way to look at Katie: Yes. Yeah, Michelle: , and of course, even with what I do, even though I specialize in alternative medicine, I'm very much in the world of Western medicine because a lot of my patients need sometimes like conventional medical care  Michelle: so it's nice to have a balance of both. Katie: Yeah. I still, you know, I joke all the time. I still believe in science, right? , I still do testing. I still do modalities. There's a time and place for everything. I just think we need to be a little bit smarter about how we approach, you know, healthcare and dentistry and, , not use bad materials that we know are horrible for us. Michelle: 100%. What I'm finding actually is a lot of people in my world are very much now into studies and science. So there is a bridge that's coming together. And I see a lot of, REs that I have developed great relationships with are [00:18:00] very open to what I do to help their patients. So I'm starting to see this shift of everybody coming together, which I love. Katie: That makes me happy because, you know, I did infertility treatment for six years and I saw some of the best specialists in the country. Not one asked them about my oral health. And there's so much research out there about how oral health affects infertility and you know Thank goodness. My oral health was fine. Katie: Of course. I checked it before, you know, I went and did all this stuff But you know, it was just kind of shocking to me how siloed and hyper focused they practiced, you know, and just looking at the reproductive system and nothing else Michelle: Oh, yeah. And even in Spain, they'll check even the vaginal microbiome, which I find so interesting because there's a correlation between that being off and then fail transfers. So they do that like automatically and it increases their success rates and they'll give them like vaginal, Probiotics Katie: I love that Michelle: And, and that's like a thing here. It's not so as we [00:19:00] learn, I mean, and then of course, when I read it starts with egg, that's what really got me into the whole teeth thing and then seeing the science with that. And now, like, even for my intake form, I always have a section that talks about like, have you ever had dental work done because it's important, but you know, you learn, it's not something that I knew like automatically, but as I got more into it. Michelle: I learned. Another thing that I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts about fluoride? Because I know this is a very hot topic. Katie: Hot topic right, you know, I think I think it's a, another conversation like mercury, right? I think for a very long time, we had this major issue of, we call it caries in the dental field, which is just cavities. And so we had, you know, dental decay is like the number one disease in the world. And we had all these. Katie: You know, kids and people that had rampant decay and instead of looking at diet and microbiome, which is what we should have done, we said, okay, well, let's create some sort of chemical or product [00:20:00] that we can do to treat right. We're treating the symptom, not the original form of what's causing it. And so they created this. Katie: But what we now know is that when you. swallow it and you ingest it systemically, it's not good for you. It's a, it's a neurotoxin. And there's so many, I think there's so many other ways that we can combat dental decay where we can get around using fluoride. Now, if I have a patient that comes in that's refusing to do any of these other things that I'm talking about, and they're a teenager, and they have rampant decay everywhere and I know they're not going to make any lifestyle, nutritional, or oral habit modifications. Katie: May I put some fluoride on their teeth? Sure, but it's going to be something that's isolated that they're not going to ingest and swallow. My preference is to not use that because I know that even if I put a little bit in their mouth, it's still going to get in their system. But not treating someone with rampant decay and having Having them lose teeth because of it, or worse, develop an abscess, which we [00:21:00] know abscesses are horrible for our overall health. Katie: To me, that's doing more harm than painting a little bit of fluoride on teeth. But I actually recommend to use products like Nanohydroxyapatite is awesome. It was developed for NASA a long, long time ago to help astronauts, , you know, to prevent them from, from getting decay. So if it's good enough for NASA, it's good enough for me, right? Katie: So I love Nanohydroxyapatite. I love M. I. paste. , I also love arginine. Arginine is something that a lot of people don't know a ton about, but there's a ton of research out there showing that toothpaste that are high in arginine, like Tom's for example, , prevent tooth decay and also help treat tooth sensitivity. Katie: So I think we have Michelle: I love Katie: so many great things out there that we could use in addition to, you know, making sure that we're balancing and nurturing our microbiome. Not eating Jolly Rancher is incredible. Michelle: Yeah, exactly. My kids have been fluoride free. They don't get fluoride. They've been using fluoride free toothpaste. [00:22:00] They have never had cavity. Katie: Amazing. Yeah, and they, and they should never need it, right? Our, Michelle: They floss too. Katie: Yeah, I mean, so there you go, right? And, but what people don't understand, and I would have patients come into my practice, and they would say like, well, I want fluoride free. And I'd say, okay, tell me about your diet. And it was breads and pastas and carbs and sugar and five cokes a day. Katie: And they don't brush or floss their teeth. And they think oil pulling is going to solve everything. You know, and I'm like that, we can't do that, right? We need to, we need to intervene here. But if, someone takes a holistic approach to their oral health care, they should never need fluoride. And we know that our cavity causing bacteria really peaks and starts to decline in mid thirties. Katie: And so if parents are healthy, Their kids are going to be healthy because you're number one modeling healthy lifestyle But number two you're transferring all of your microbiome to your kids And so another thing that people don't realize is that if a parent's mouth is Full of [00:23:00] cavities and gum disease the kids mouth is going to be full of it because you're sharing the same bacteria So good for you for you being healthy and then keeping your kids healthy, too. Michelle: Thank you. I love how balanced this conversation is. It's amazing information. , I just love this because it's so important and it's, it's information that a lot of people just don't have access to, and it's not even like, sometimes it's not even knowing that you need to have access to certain information, but it's like. Michelle: So important. And it could be like that one thing that people are not looking into when they're going through fertility treatments or just challenges overall, Katie: Yeah, and we know that fertility treatment actually increases our inflammatory levels and increases the leakiness of our gum tissue. So if the mouth isn't healthy to start, or even if there's a little bit of dysbiosis going on, fertility treatment is just going to exacerbate it. So it's best to get it treated, you know, it's safe to do it during pregnancy, but it's always best to do it beforehand. Michelle: Yeah, [00:24:00] for sure. So now, let's talk about Peelu gum. So you hear about Peelu gum, , that it's very good for your teeth. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it or if you know, like how it can impact Katie: I actually don't know what that is. Michelle: Oh, so Peelu is from a tree. It's the Peelu tree, I believe. And so they create this gum and it's sugar free, but it's like natural sweetener and it's supposed to actually help clean the teeth. Katie: Okay. Michelle: Yeah. So look into that. Yeah. If you find out anything, email me. Katie: Yeah. Do you know what the sweetener is in it? Is it Xylitol or do you know what's in it? Yeah. So anything with Xylitol I love, , Xylitol is a natural sweetener that tricks the bacteria in your mouth to thinking that it's sugar because that's what the bacteria thrive on. Katie: So the streptococcus mutans cavity causing bacteria in the mouth. What it does is it feeds off of sugar, so that can be sugar from candy or gum or, you know, breads, pastas, processed [00:25:00]carbohydrates, things like that. And then it excretes lactic acid on the teeth and that's what causes cavities. So xylitol, what it does, is the bacteria still thinks it's the sugar that it wants to eat, but once it eats it, it can't metabolize it, so it actually starts, from ingesting the xylitol. Katie: So I love that. I'm gonna look that up. I haven't heard of that Michelle: Yeah. They have it at Whole Foods. It's kind of like a more natural, you know, more natural, but it's supposed to be good for the teeth. Like I think that back in the day people used to chew on it. It was from trees and they would just chew on the actual whatever that was. But Katie: which that's good too, because again, you're chewing on fibrous branches, right? And that's really good to stimulate saliva. It's really good to work on your jaw muscles and it's really good to develop the structural skeleton of the jaw on the face. So Michelle: yeah, so maybe, a little gum chewing is okay. Katie: Oh, I love gum Michelle: strength. Katie: recommend it all the time. Yeah. That's actually one of the things that I do recommend for my patients. , because you know, like I mentioned, it stimulates [00:26:00] saliva. Saliva is like our best protector that we have of our teeth because it neutralizes the pH. It actually coats our teeth in, You know, this like biofilm, right? Katie: That's super healthy. So it protects the teeth from getting any bad bacteria stuck to it. So I'm a big fan of chewing gum. I think it's great. I recommend it for patients all the time. As long as it's sugar free, of Michelle: Yeah. So this might be the ideal thing, the Peelu gum. Katie: Yeah. Michelle: I happen to love it. So it's kind of my guilty pleasure. I try not to do it too much cause I know like it's just, you don't want to wear down your teeth, but Katie: should, I mean, you shouldn't, unless you're really grinding it, like you shouldn't be wearing down your Michelle: right. So it's, it probably protects it anyway. Okay. Well that's good to know. Cause I Katie: habit to do. Michelle: I learned something new. It's nice to hear that you, that you actually promote that or that you support doing that. That's awesome. Wow, this is great information. I know you also have a book about the mouth. Katie: Yes, so I wrote a book called Saved by the Mouth and it's all about how oral health [00:27:00]affects , virtually every organ system in the body. So we talk about brain health, heart health, cancer, fertility, of course, , aging, gut health. And so I wrote it from the, or I wrote it as if I was having a conversation with a patient because I wanted the information to be easily digestible. Katie: And entertaining. And so every, as entertaining as Michelle: I love that. Katie: guess. And so every chapter actually talks about a situation that I had with a patient in my practice and them having to deal with whatever ailment they were dealing with. And so it's, I think it's really relatable. It's a quick read. Katie: , and what I like about it too is it also goes over super simple daily modifications that people can do to improve their oral health and it doesn't have to be like a life changing makeover. They're just small things that you can do to improve health and then also what to ask your dentist for and you can go to any dentist and ask this. Katie: It doesn't have to be a biologic dentist. You know, asking for things [00:28:00] like salivary testing, that's super important to know what's in your microbiome. Asking for your gums to be measured, so you actually know if you have a gum infection, things like that. Michelle: Fantastic. And then you had also talked about how like when people are pregnant, sometimes people will say, don't do any dental work during that time. So talk about that. Cause that sounds like it's an important thing for Katie: it is. It drives me insane. , and I was trained that way, by the way. So, you know, people aren't doing anything wrong. It's, it's, it's, you know, a product of the education system, unfortunately. But what we know is that when people have gum infection, it affects fertility in all sorts of ways. You know, it. It affects not only men, or not only women, but also men. Katie: And We know that if once a woman is pregnant, if she has gum infection, she is 30 to 50 percent more likely to have a preterm birth, a low birth weight baby, or stillbirth. And we know that of [00:29:00] pregnant women, about 40 percent of them present with some sort of gum infection, whether it be gingivitis or gum disease. Katie: And yet, 56 percent of pregnant women avoid the dentist. So, with those statistics alone, you know, it only makes sense that we need to be treating our oral health ideally before you even start to try and get pregnant because it will help you get pregnant. But, you know, I, I always get questions from patients being like, well, I'm pregnant now, you know, what do I do? Katie: I, I feel like I might have something going on. Well, you absolutely should go to the dentist and get this treated because you want to try and avoid any sort of pregnancy complications and, and again, patients with perio infection gum disease or gingivitis are at much higher risk for, you know, having a complication with their baby. Katie: And we know that if they get perio treatment while pregnant, their medical costs will reduce about 74%. So it's very important for the outcome of the pregnancy for the mom, but also for the outcome of the pregnancy for the baby. Michelle: Wow. That is Katie: the [00:30:00] dentist. Michelle: important. Chinese Katie: I don't get elective care now What I'm what I'm not saying is to go get veneers done. Katie: Like so I don't want people to mishear me I'm saying, you know If you have a gum infection or tooth abscess, you absolutely should go get that treated while you're pregnant All elective care can can wait until after baby's here. Michelle: Such a good point. Interestingly enough, Chinese medicine, the teeth are an expression of the kidneys. Chinese medicine, the kidneys are not what we look at in conventional medicine. The kidneys are actually what houses your reproductive essence and health. So it's so crazy how there is this correlation. Michelle: I see this a lot. I see this quite often, actually, even with, the heart and brain different. Topic, but the heart houses the brain. This is how we're taught in Chinese medicine. And now they're seeing in heart math that there is this correlation between the heart and the brain. And there's a communication between the heart and the brain that it's measured. Michelle: So it's interesting how science is [00:31:00] connecting, you know, you're connecting the dots between what was talked about in Chinese medicine. That may not. Initially makes sense, but then you're seeing in science things that are proving those things. So it's pretty wild that we're coming to this place where it's bridging. Michelle: You're actually seeing the two connecting. Katie: knew about the meridians in the teeth, but I did not know about the kidneys and fertility in teeth. That just like really blew my mind. Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because as a child, you know, when they're, when they're little, you know, their, their body's developing and as they get closer to kind of reproductive years, that's when their real teeth come out. And then as, , the reproductive health declines and they're getting really old, the teeth fall out. Michelle: So it's kind of like this connection to essence. Katie: I just got goosebumps. Michelle: Very fascinating. It's just, the human body is Katie: And it, it's also tied with, with microbiome, right? Like when we're born, our microbiome [00:32:00] is the least diverse. , and the least strong. It's also the strongest, like what you say, in our reproductive year. So I always tell people, you know, when you're in your 20s, and, you know, you're invincible, and you can go out every night, and not get any sleep, and eat whatever you want, and never get sick, that's when your microbiome is the best. Katie: But then also, as you age, our microbiome starts to deplete again, in not only numbers, but also diversity, and then that's when we die. So it's, it's funny how this all Michelle: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We have these like peaks and then valleys, so it's pretty wild. Katie: that is wild. Michelle: Yeah. So we're like building and then we're kind of sloping and going down. And then also I was curious to know your thoughts about like neem rinse or a tea tree, you know, instead of obviously alcohol, what are your thoughts on Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love neem oil. I actually use neem oil in my hair all over my face, like all the stuff. I think anything that you can do to be more natural is [00:33:00] totally fine. I think the key is, is that patients need to make sure that they are healthy first. A lot of times I'll have people come in and they'll be like, you know, I haven't gone to the dentist in 10 years because I oil pull or I, you know, I use essential oils or rinse with coconut every day, but their mouth is a mess, right? Katie: And they've inflammation everywhere and calculus everywhere and cavities. And so I always tell people is go to the dentist. Get a clean bill of health or if you're not healthy at least have them You know clean you up and get you healthy and then use those tools to maintain yourself over time You know when patients don't floss their teeth they get little clicks Or little nodules of calculus that build up in between their teeth under their gum line. Katie: There's nothing but mechanical debridement that will remove that. And there's no amount of oil pooling in the world that will treat that. And that's what's going to cause gum infection and gum disease. So, you know, if people want to use neem rinses and tea tree and things like that, great. Tea tree is also good for pain. Katie: You know, if someone has a little [00:34:00] ulcer in their mouth, it's great for that. Very antibacterial, neem is great for that, antifungal, all those things. But get clean first, get a clean bill of health, and then use those tools in your toolbox to maintain that bill of health. Michelle: Yeah, definitely. No doubt. I'm every six months we get our teeth cleaned. It's, it's important to actually get it because you feel it. You feel all the calcification and I even have my own little scraper. Sometimes I'll just get in between, in between times. Cause I'm like, I can't wait until the next six months. Michelle: Cause it does, it builds up. And then if you have tea and all kinds of different things, like it just, it's there. Katie: Yeah, so when we have plaque, plaque starts forming on our teeth just a couple hours after we're done brushing. So that's why ideally, if someone can brush three times a day, that's great. At least twice, you know, you'll be okay. But what happens is, once that plaque sits there, it starts to really mature. Katie: And it gets really, it gets harder to remove because the, the extracellular matrices of the bacteria really start to connect and, and strengthen its attachment to the teeth. Then we mix it with the minerals in our [00:35:00] saliva, and then it hardens and it calcifies into calculus or what people know as tartar. Katie: Once it's hardened, you cannot get that off unless you remove it with a scaler or something like that. And so it is important to go in and get it removed. Because, you know, even with a scaler, I do it to scale my teeth all the time. There's places you can't obviously reach, you know, like underneath the gum tissue in between that have to be removed. Katie: And so I actually recommend for people to go in to see their dentist about every three to four months, even if they are healthy. Because we know that bacteria repopulate about every 90 days. , and so in my opinion, six months is too long. Someone like you who's super healthy, you know, probably doesn't need to go in. Katie: But for the vast majority of Americans especially, they should be staying every three to four months for sure. , to prevent disease. You know, we, It's crazy. Cause the six month timeframe came about because of insurance. It, Michelle: No, that's exactly why we do six months. Cause our insurance pays for that. Katie: yes. It was never a medically, , [00:36:00] science based driven Michelle: Isn't that amazing how the Katie: Yeah, it was, it was dictated by insurance and it's only after. You get an irreversible diagnosis of gum disease, which is irreversible Once you have that once you have gum disease, we know you have that bacteria in your heart We know it's in your brain We know it's all over the body But it's only until you get that irreversible diagnosis of gum disease that now your insurance will allow you to go in every every three Months, that's crazy In my mind, why not go every three to four months and prevent an irreversible disease? Michelle: totally, but you know common sense common sense Doesn't always translate into the system Katie: wish we used our brains more. In Michelle: Yeah, that's crazy. So another question I have lastly like this is another thing My mom sent me this video on Facebook of a dentist showing how to properly Brush the teeth. So we typically will just keep going back and forth, but he said, all you have to do is [00:37:00] kind of go from the gums up, gums up to remove the food, because when you're going back and forth, all you're doing is just mixing the bacteria in the same space. Michelle: You're not moving it up. So just wanted to ask you what you thought about that. Katie: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can, you can do that. Sure, it's fine. The, the point of brushing the teeth, you know, what I always tell people is, the saying is brush your teeth, but what we're really saying is brush the gum line. And so, plaques sits on our, two places. One is it sits on our gum line. That's where it starts to accumulate. Katie: Then it also sits on top of the teeth in the little grooves. So to prevent cavities, you want to brush the tops of the teeth to get everything, get all the food out of the grooves of the teeth. But the most important thing, especially to prevent gum inflammation is to brush along the gum line of the teeth. Katie: And the goal of that is to disrupt the biofilm. So sure, if you're brushing up like that's great, you're brushing it away from the gums. But what you really want to do is just do whatever you can to disrupt that biofilm because you're going to spit it out. Once you get the plaque [00:38:00] biofilm disrupted, it's loose. Katie: You're going to spit it out in the sink. You know, I can't even get people to brush twice a day for two minutes, let alone having them do something as technique sensitive as that. So I just tell people angle your toothbrush at 45 degrees. Right at the gum line. Use an electric toothbrush because it'll be gentle. Katie: Don't get a hard, hard or medium bristled toothbrush. Very light pressure. Plaque is so soft. You don't have to use any pressure. You just want to disrupt that biofilm along the gum line. Spit it out. Rinsing afterwards is great. Luff, you know, obviously everyone needs to floss every day. , and then tongue scraping is really important. Michelle: Awesome. This was great information. I'm so happy that I had you on today. So this is just such great information. So for people who want to learn more about you and read your book, how can they find you? Katie: Yeah. So, , they can follow me on Instagram. I'm pretty good at, at, , responding to the DMS on Instagram. , so [00:39:00] katyleedds on Instagram. My website is also katyleedds. I do Salivary testing for fertility patients. And so if someone wants to check their microbiome and see if they have the bacteria that impact, , Fertility, we do saliva tests for them remotely. Katie: , and then my book is called Saved by the Mouth. They can get it off my website or on Amazon. Michelle: Well, Dr. Lee, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy your mind and picking your brain I just love how well balanced your information is and, and also just, it's priceless. It's so important. Katie: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity

https://www.sixthlinestudios.com/ The Totalitarians by Peter Sinn Nachtrieb THE STORY: We might be on the brink of revolution in Nebraska. Penny, a compulsive and compulsively watchable candidate for state office enlists the help of Francine, a silver-tongued operative. Francine's husband Jeffrey, a doctor, is lying to his dying patients—one of whom opens his eyes to Penny's nefarious plans for the Cornhusker State. THE TOTALITARIANS is a raucous dark comedy about the state of modern political discourse, modern relationships, and how easy it is to believe truths without facts. ​ PERFORMANCES DATES: March 2 - 24, 2024 3 Shows per week Sat eve, 8:00 pm Sunday 2:00 pm and 6:00 pm ​ ​ THEATER LOCATION: FRONT ROW THEATER 17011 Bollinger Canyon Rd San Ramon, CA 94582 https://gofund.me/8c7f4e36 https://www.gofundme.com/f/6th-line-studios-begins https://www.gofundme.com/f/6th-line-studios-begins?utm_campaign=p_nacp+share-sheet&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=customer Prepare to embark on a profound journey of self-discovery and healing in this introspective episode of All The Answers. Katie Rubin and Cassidy Brown delve deep into the intricacies of the human psyche, exploring the ways in which our present lives are influenced by past experiences and how we carry the echoes of our history within us. Katie, with her incisive intuition and Cassidy's sagacious reflections, unravel the threads of a listener's question about the intersection of art, body image, and past lifetimes. They navigate the labyrinth of trauma, self-expression, and the quest for understanding, uncovering the profound truth that the key to resolving our deepest issues often lies in confronting the pain of our current existence rather than the shadows of our previous incarnations. This episode is not just an exploration of consciousness; it's a call to courage, inviting you to face the raw and uncomfortable truths that lead to genuine transformation. So join us as we peel back the layers of the soul, examine the ties that bind our past and present selves, and discover the healing power of integration and wholeness. Don't forget to support the show at patreon.com/AllTheAnswersPodcast and visit sixlinestudios.org to witness the magic of theater that Katie and Cassidy are bringing to life. Engage with the community, share your questions, and be part of a movement that's as much about embracing our collective humanity as it is about finding individual peace. Email: allanswerspod@gmail.com FB/IG/T: @allanswerspod Special thanks to Safiya Fredericks for all the preparation. ---

Overwhelmed by the daily hustle and bustle? Do you struggle with feelings of stress and anxiety, but don't know how to cope?Fostering emotional resilience as we navigate the rollercoaster of life is a way to steward our family and life well.Emotional resilience is not just an individual journey; it's also a family affair. As a team, your family can learn how to cope with difficult emotions, which surprisingly creates unity and makes your family stronger when done in a healthy way.But how do we practically foster emotional resilience within ourselves and our families? That is what we will cover today!Remember that your relationships within your family are the most important part of your stewardship as a wife and mother. Prioritizing love and fostering emotional resilience will not only honor God but also bring peace and contentment to your home.We want you to know that you're not alone in this journey. You've got this, and we're here to support you every step of the way.Sending you much love and strength,Katie It's Our Gift to You!How To Homeschool My Special Needs Child Joyfullyhttp://herhomeandheart.net/free TO REDUCE OVERWHELM:STEP 1)FEEL GOOD with CELLULAR ACTIVATORSfamilysuccess.lifevantage.comSTEP 2)Be part of Community!https://urlgeni.us/facebook/HHAHGroupStep 3) Hacks, Coupons, Courses, Memberships, and FUN THINGS :https://bit.ly/m/HerHomeandHeart Want Your Question Considered For The Podcast? Leave me a message!https://www.speakpipe.com/Katie

Kimberley: My tummy already hurts from laughing too much. I'm so excited to have you guys on. Today, we are talking about thriving in relationships with OCD and we have Rev. Katie O'Dunne and Ethan Smith. I'd love for you both to do a quick intro. Katie, will you go first? Katie: Yeah, absolutely. My name is Reverend Katie O'Dunne. I always like to tell folks that I always have Reverend in my title because I want individuals to know that ordained ministers and chaplains can in fact have OCD. But I am super informal and really just go by Katie. I am an individual who works at the intersection between faith and OCD, helping folks navigate what's religious scrupulosity versus what is true authentic faith. I'm also an OCD advocate on my own journey, helping individuals try to figure out what it looks like for them to move towards their values when things are really, really tough. Outside of being a chaplain and faith in OCD specialist and advocate, I'm also an ultramarathon runner, tackling 50 ultramarathons in 50 states for OCD. As we get into stuff with Ethan today, Ethan is my biggest cheerleader throughout all of those races. I'm sure we'll talk all about that too, running towards our values together. Ethan: My name is Ethan Smith. Katie is my fiancé. I'm a national advocate for the International OCD Foundation, a filmmaker by trade, and a staunch advocate of all things OCD-related disorders. Definitely, my most important role is loving Katie and being her biggest cheerleader. Katie: Since you said that, one of my things too, I am the fiancé of Ethan Smith. Sorry. Ethan: Please note that this is an afterthought. It's totally fine. Kimberley: No, she knew you were coming in with it. She knew. Ethan: Yeah, I was coming in hot. Yup, all good. WHAT IS IT LIKE BEING IN A  RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE WITH OCD? Kimberley: Thank you both for being on. I think that you are going to offer an opportunity for people to, number one, thriving in Relationships with OCD, but you may also bring some insight on how we can help educate our partners even if they don't have OCD and how they may be able to manage and navigate having a partner with OCD. I'm so excited to have you guys here. Thank you for being on. Can you first share, is it easier or harder to be in a relationship with someone with OCD? For you having OCD? Ethan: I'll let Katie start and then I'll end. Katie: Yes. No, I think it's both. I think there are pros and cons where I think for so long being in relationships with individuals who didn't have OCD, I desperately wanted someone to understand the things that I was going through, the things that I was experiencing, the intensity of my intrusive thoughts. I was in so many relationships where individuals felt like, well, you can just stop thinking about this, or you can just stop engaging in compulsions. That's not how it works. It has been so helpful to have a partner through my journey who understands what I'm going through that can really say, “I actually get it and I'm here with you in the midst of that.” But I always like to be honest that that can also be really, really challenging where there are sometimes points, at least for me, having OCD with a partner with OCD, where if we are having a tough point at the same time, that can be really tough. It can also be really tough on a different level when I see Ethan struggling, not reassuring him even more so because I know how painful it is and I want so badly to take that away. There are times that that can feed into my own journey with OCD when I see him struggling, that my OCD latches onto his content, vice versa. There's this amazing supportive aspect, but then there's also this piece I think that we have to really be mindful of OCD feeding off of each other.  Ethan: I was just making notes as you were-- no, go ahead.  Kimberley: No, go ahead, Ethan. I'm curious to know your thoughts. Ethan: Katie made all great points, and I agree. I mean, on the surface, it makes a lot of sense and it seems like it's fantastic that we both can understand each other and support each other in really meaningful and value-driven ways. I always like to say that we met because of OCD, but it by no means defines our relationship or is at the heart of our relationship. It's not why we work. It's not what holds us together. I think Katie brings up two good points. First of all, when I would speak and advocate with parents and significant others and things like that, and they would say, “I'm having a really hard time not reassuring and not enabling,” I'd be like, “Just don't, you're making them sicker. Just say what you got to say and be tough about it.” Then I got in a serious relationship with Katie and she was suffering and hurting, and I was like, “Oh my God, I can't say hard things to her.” I became that person. I suddenly understood how hard it is to not engage OCD and to say things that aren't going to make her comfortable. I struggle with that. I struggle with standing my ground after a certain amount of time and wanting to desperately give in and just make her feel better. I just want her to feel better.  For me personally, I lived alone for 10 years prior to meeting Katie, and those 10 years followed my successful treatment and recovery from OCD. For me, my mother was my safe person. I learned during treatment and therapy that you don't talk about your OCD around your parents anymore. You just don't. That's not a conversation you have. I found myself, other than within therapy, not ever talking about my OCD. I mean, advocacy, yes, but my own thoughts, I never talked about it.  Starting to start a relationship with Katie, I suddenly had someone that understood, which was wonderful, but it also opened up an opportunity for OCD to seek reassurance. I'm an indirect reassurance seeker. I don't ask for it as a question; I simply state what's on my mind, and just putting it out there is reassuring enough for me. For instance, like, “Oh, this food tastes funny.” Whether she says it does or it doesn't, I really don't care. I just want her to know that I think that it does, and it could be bad. I think this is bad. I'm not saying, “Do you think it's bad?” I'm like, “I think it's bad. I think there's something wrong with this.” I've had to really work and catch myself vocalizing my OCD symptoms because having a partner that understands has given my OCD permission to vocalize and want to talk about it. That honestly has been the biggest challenge for me in this relationship. NAVIGATING OCD REASSURANCE SEEKING IN RELATIONSHIPS Kimberley: So interesting how OCD can work its way in, isn't it? And it is true. I mean, I think about in my own marriage, at the end of the day, you do want to share with someone like, “This was hard for me today.” You know what I mean? That makes it very complicated in that if you're unable to do that. That's really interesting. Let's jump straight to that reassurance seeking piece. How do you guys navigate, or do you guys create rules for the relationship? How are you thriving in Relationships with OCD related to reassurance seeking or any compulsion for that matter? Katie: A couple different things. I think part of it for us, and we by no means do this perfectly, I'd have to have conversations about it even-- yes, Ethan, you might do it perfectly, but even in the last week, we've had conversations about this where what Ethan responds well to is very different from what I respond well to. I think that is really important to note, especially when there's two partners with OCD, that it's not one size fits all. It's not because I understand OCD that I know exactly how to respond to him. It's still a conversation. For me, I respond really well if I'm seeking reassurance or I'm struggling to a lot of compassion where he doesn't respond to the content, but tells me, “I know that this is really hard. This sounds a lot like OCD right now, but let's sit with it together. I know that it sucks, but we can be in the midst of this. We aren't going to talk about it anymore, but I love you. We're going to watch a show. We're going to do whatever it is we're going to do, we're going to be in it together.” I respond really well to that.  Ethan, on the other hand, does not respond quite as well to that and actually responds better to me being like, “Hey, stop talking about that. We are not going to talk about this right now. I have heard this from you so many times today. No, no, no, no.” He responds in a harsher tone. That's really hard for me because that is not naturally what comes out of me, nor what is helpful for me. Sometimes the compassion that I offer to Ethan becomes inherently reassuring and is just not something that's helpful for him, so we have to have these conversations. Vice versa, sometimes when I'm really struggling, he'll forget the compassion piece works for me and is like, “Hey, Katie, no. Stop doing that.” I'm like, “Seriously? This is really hard.” Being able to have those conversations.  Kimberley: How do those conversations look, Ethan? Can you share whatever you're comfortable sharing? Ethan: Yeah. Katie hit over the head, first of all. We are definitely products of our therapists when we're struggling. For those of you that may or may not know, Katia Moritz, she is hardcore, like here's what it is, and I'm a product of that. There's like, “Nope, we're not going to do it. We're not going to have it. OCD is black and white, don't compulse, period. End of story.” Katie is like, “Let's take a moment.” My natural instinct on how I respond to her is very different to what she needs and vice versa. We've learned that. I would say that the rule in our household is we're a no-content household. I'm not saying we succeed at that all the time, but the general rule is we're not a content household. We don't want a no content. You can say that you're struggling. You can say that you're having a hard day. You can say that OCD is really loud today. Those are all okay things. But I don't want to hear, and Katie doesn't want to hear the details because that inevitably is reassuring and compulsy and all of those things. That's our general rule. I'll talk for me, and I don't know, Katie, I'll ask you ahead of time if it's okay to share an example of our conversation, but my stuff, like I said, it's covert reassurance seeking and she does it too. We're both very covert. We're like well-therapized and we know how to-- Katie: It's really funny because I can tell when he's sneaky OCD reassurance-seeking. Nobody else in my life has ever been able to tell when I'm secretly seeking reassurance. It's actually frustrating because he can call me on it because he's really good at it too. There's some level of accountability with that. Ethan: For sure. For me, I'll get stuck on something and I'll just start verbalizing it. That's really the biggest thing I think, unless Katie has some other insight, and she may. But for me, verbalization of my thoughts, not specifically asking for a specific answer and simply saying, “Oh, my chest feels weird. I'm sure I'm dying. My heart is about to give out.” How are you going to respond to that? What are you going to say right now? And that's my system. She'll be like, “Okay, yup. You may.” To be honest, I'll call Katie out, she really struggles with giving me-- she's like, “Ethan, I'm sure you're fine.” I'm like, “Why did you say that?” She does. She really struggles with-- Katie: It's interesting because I work with folks with OCD all the time and I don't reassure them, but it's so interesting because it feels so different with my partner knowing how much he's struggling and I just want to be like, “You know what this is, it's fine.” But yeah, working on that Kimberley: If he's struggling, then you said sometimes you will struggle, it makes sense that in that moment you're like, “You're fine, you're fine.” You don't want them to have a struggle because you know it might even impact you, I'm guessing. Katie: Well, yeah. It's funny, all of Ethan's stuff is around bad things happening to him. All of my stuff is around bad things happening to other people. If Ethan's worried something bad's going to happen to him, I'm like, “No. I can't handle that. I don't want to worry that you're going to die. Let's not put that on the table.” Ethan: We discovered it was true love when my OCD was worried about her. She's like, “Baby, it's about me. It's not about you.” It's true love. No question. Katie: He had never had obsessions about someone else before. I was so excited. He was like, “Am I going to kill you in your sleep? Is that going to happen?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, you do love me. So sweet.” Ethan: But to answer your question, conversely, when Katie is struggling, she gets loopy and she directly asks for reassurance. I can definitely get frustrated at it at a certain point. I always feel like one time is appropriate. “Do you have a question or concern? Do you think blah, blah, blah?” “No, I don't think so. I think that's totally appropriate.” And then the second time, “Yeah, but do you...” I was like, okay, now we're starting to move into OCD land and I stay compassionate up to a certain point and then I'll get frustrated because it will be so obvious to me. As she said, myself is so obvious to her. I just want to be like, “Katie, can you see this makes no sense at all?” But when she's really struggling, not just the superficial high-level or low-level OCD hierarchy stuff, when she's really, really deeply struggling, it's challenging. I really struggle with not giving her the reassurance that her OCD craves because I can't stand to see her suffer. Sometimes I wish that I didn't know as much about OCD as I do because I actively know that I'm helping OCD, but giving her that instant relief in the moment, it just pains me.  We've definitely changed our relationship style as we've gotten to know each other and been able to say things like, “I know this doesn't feel good. I don't want to say these things to you, but I really, really don't want to help OCD and hurt you. I really, really want to help you get better in this moment and hurt OCD and just put it to bed, so I'm not going to answer that.” We've had to have those communicative conversations to be able to address it when it does cross the line.  I will say we're pretty well., we do pretty good, but that's not to say that there aren't times where we can both get in a rabbit hole. To Katie's point and to your point, it gets sticky sometimes. I literally never checked an oven in my entire life till I moved in with Katie. And then now she'll mention it or I'll be closing up the lights and I'll be like, I've never looked and thought about it. But Katie talks about it and that's one of her things, and like, “It latched on. I'll take it,” and like, “No, no, no. Ethan. Everything's going to burn down.” Yes, moving on. Katie: Likewise, I've never checked my pills multiple times to make sure that I didn't take too many or worried that there was glass inside of my glass from hitting it. I mean, there's things that were Ethan's that I now think about. It's really interesting because I think we actively work to not give into those things, but that's definitely a process to you where they were things that I never would've gotten stuck on before. We have these conversations too of being able to call each other out. Well, actually, comedy is a really big thing in our house too, so we also like to call it out in a way of like, “Hey, you're stealing my themes. Stop it. That's mine. Come on, let me have that stomach bug thing.” Kimberley: Isn't that so interesting, though? We constantly get asked what causes OCD, and we never can really answer the question. We say it's a combo of nature and nurture and you guys are touching on the nurture piece in that, yes, we are genetically predisposed to it, but that other people's anxiety around things can create anxiety for us. I actually feel the same way. There are so many things my husband is anxious about, or my kids. Now I'm hyper-vigilant about it. That's so interesting that you guys are seeing that in real life.  HOW TO SUPPORT A LOVED ONE WITH OCD  Ethan: Yeah, for sure. And then Katie brought up a great point, which is, I think the most challenging times, and they don't happen often, is when we're both struggling simultaneously. How do you support each other in that moment? First of all, what's very funny is we like to joke we both have OCD and we're both only children. It's one of those households. Literally, we'll cook a frozen pizza and we'll sit there and size up the half to figure out which one's bigger and then be like, “Are you sure you want that one? I want that.” It's a thing.  When we're both struggling, it's like, “No, you need to listen to me.” “No, no, no, no. You need to listen. It's my thing. It's my thing.” It's been few and far between where we've both really been significantly struggling simultaneously, but we've managed it. We learn how to be able to struggle and listen and support. It's no different than advocating when you're not feeling your best. You can still be compassionate and sympathetic and offer advice that is rooted in modalities of treatment and still be struggling at the same time. We may not get the empathy that we want because maybe we're just not in a place or we're pouring from an empty cup or whatever, but fortunately, those times aren't that frequent. But when they do happen, we've navigated and managed really well, I think.   Katie: And even just-- oh, sorry.  Kimberley: No, please, Katie. Go ahead.  Katie: I was going to say, even with that, having conversations around it, I think, has been really helpful. We've had moments of being really honest. Particularly earlier this year, I had some tough stuff that happened and I was in a place of grief and then also OCD was coming into that. Ethan, it lined up at some points with some difficult points that you had. There were some times that you were honest about saying, “I am just not in a place to respond to this right now in this moment in a healthy way.” I think that's actually one of the best things that we can do too. Of course, OCD sometimes gets frustrated at that, “Hey, why can't you talk about it right now?” But I think having those honest conversations as a couple too so that we can both offer care to ourselves and to one another in the midst of those times that we're struggling is really, really important. SETTING BOUNDARIES IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH OCD Kimberley: You answered actually exactly what I was going to say. There are times when we can't be there for our partner. When that is the case, do you guys then go to your own therapist or to a loved one? Not to get reassurance or do compulsions, but just have a sense of containment and safety. Or are you more working towards just working through that on your own? How do you guys navigate thriving in Relationships with OCD when your partner is tapped out?   Katie: We both have our own therapist and that's really, really helpful. We both actually have conversations together with the other person's therapist. Ethan will meet with his therapist and we've had times when he's struggling where I'll come in for a half session to talk about, hey, what's the best way to respond to him and vice versa. I'll meet with my therapist separately, but we might bring him in for 20 or 30 minutes for him to learn, hey, what's the best way to respond to Katie right now? We both have those separate spaces to go and talk about both what we're navigating and what we need, but also how to respond to our partner and then collaborate with one another's therapist. I mean, that has been so helpful for me because there have been points where I don't know how to respond to what Ethan's navigating. To hear directly from his provider as opposed to feeling like I have to take on that role is so crucial. And then, Ethan, you meeting with my therapist earlier this year, oh my goodness, was so helpful because she had given me all this insight that I just wasn't in a place to be able to share because I was struggling. For you to hear that directly from her and what she thought that I needed I think was a huge step forward for us. Ethan: Yeah. It's nuanced. It's not a one size fits all. Yes, it's all ERP or ACT or DBT or whatever. But it's all specific to what we're all going through. I will say it's funny because as we're talking, I'm like, “I didn't ask Katie if these things I could say or not.” Katie: I'm afraid to say that. You can literally say anything. I pretty much talk all the time about all this. Ethan: For sure. I think one of the things that really, really helped our relationship in terms of navigating this is, when I first met Katie and we started dating, she wasn't seeing a therapist actively. It was challenging because as someone that is well-versed in OCD, we would constantly talk about things and she would divulge a lot of information to me. I started to feel like I didn't want to take on an advocate or therapist's role with her. I wanted to be her boyfriend. I was really struggling because I really wanted to support her and I really wanted to be. That was never a question, it was not supporting her. But for the same reason that we tell parents like, “Don't police your kids, be their parents,” and hear how that can backfire, it was really challenging to navigate being a significant other and also supporting her, but not becoming that person that her OCD goes to.  I think her finally landing on a therapist that was right for her and good for her where she can get that objectivity that she needs and I can too learn what she needs from me as a partner, not that there was anything wrong with our relationship, but really allowed our relationship to grow and really allowed us to focus on what we should be focusing on, which is each other and who we are to each other and what's important to our lives and our family. Our therapists can handle our OCD. That doesn't mean that OCD doesn't get involved. It does. But for the most part, that was really where our relationship really got to level up. We both were able to turn to our therapists, but also include each other in treatment so we can have open and honest conversations about what's going on.  DO I TELL MY PARTNER ABOUT MY OCD OBSESSIONS? The other thing I'll say is, we have no secrets. We literally have no secrets. As a first timer to a long-term relationship, because my OCD Obsessions wouldn't let me have a long-term relationship any longer than four or five months, as a first-timer in the three-year club on May 9th, I really feel like that is such a crucial piece to our relationship. We watch reality shows and it's like, “You went through my phone,” and it's like, “Well, I don't care. She knows my passwords. I have nothing to hide.”  I always say that individuals with OCD would make the worst thieves. Could you imagine? I put myself in a position of robbing a house. There's no way I wouldn't worry that one piece of DNA was not left in that house. I find hair on my pillow all the time. There's no possible way I could ever burglarize anyone and not think I would be caught. We're not transparent because we know that that will alleviate our OCD. We're transparent because I think honesty is really important in a relationship and so is communication. We always advocate that having therapy and having access to treatment shouldn't be an exception at all. That should be the standard. It should be accessible, should be affordable, should be effective. Absolutely, no question there. But with that being said, Katie and I were both fortunate enough to have really good treatment and I think our relationship reflects that. Not to say that we're perfect all the time, but I think we're too highly therapized individuals that began our relationship with honesty and communication and have continued that through and through. I think that has enabled us to not only grow as a couple but also helped us manage our own OCD and the OCD of each other and how we interrelate. HOW TO ENCOURAGE SOMEONE WITH OCD  Kimberley: Right. I think that is so true. As you're talking, I'm thinking of people who are at the very beginning stages. They didn't have any idea about OCD and they've been giving reassurance, they've been asking for reassurance, and there's tantrums because the person isn't giving the right reassurance. What would you encourage couples to do if they're newly to treatment, newly to their diagnosis, and their goal is to be thriving in Relationships with OCD? Katie: There's so many different things, and I know this is different for every person, but even if they're new to that process, getting their partner involved in therapy, meeting with their therapist, having them learn about OCD, again, Ethan talked about, not from a space of the partner becoming the therapist, but having an understanding of what the person is going through so that they're not reassuring, so that they're not accommodating. But I say this to folks all the time, again, so that you're not also being so hard and so rigid so that you can still be the person's partner in the midst of that. I think being able to understand what their triggers are, what their symptoms are, what's coming up, so that you can say, “Hey, I'm your partner. I love you. I can't answer that, but I'm here.”  I think figuring out what that looks like with the provider, but also with the partner is just so beyond important to have an effective relationship, one, so that you're not just closing it off so that you can't talk about it, but two, so that, as Ethan said, you don't become the therapist because that's not healthy either. I think we have in our relationship almost tried both extremes at different points of, “Hey, we're not going to talk about it at all,” or “Oh, we're going to talk about everything and we're going to totally support each other through every aspect.” I think with each person, it's finding that balance of how we can be a couple with open and honest communication, but we're actually still each other's partners and not each other's therapists. Kimberley: Yeah. Do you have any thoughts, Ethan? Ethan: I was just thinking. I mean, she nailed it. I don't know that I have anything to add to that, whether you both have OCD or one of you has OCD. I was actually thinking earlier on in the relationship, and about divulging your OCD and when it's appropriate. We get so many questions from so many people about, when I'm dating, when am I supposed to let them know? When am I supposed to talk about it? I have very aggressive feelings about OCD and dating, and as amazing as somebody may look and be like, “Oh my God, I would love to be in a relationship with a partner that has OCD because then I don't have to explain anything.” I did not date to specifically find somebody with OCD. When I met Katie, we were friends long before we were together.  Katie: We always say that, like he was my best friend that I happened to meet through the OCD community, that we fell in love during COVID because he was my best friend, and because we had so much that connected us beyond OCD. I know you said this earlier, Ethan, but we get the question all the time, “Oh, if I just had a partner with OCD...” and that is not. If all we had in common was our OCD, this would not work out because it actually can make it even more challenging. But it's what's beyond that. I always think we shouldn't be in a relationship or not in a relationship based on our diagnosis. It's about who the person is and how we can support them for who they are. Ethan: Yeah, for sure. You actually raised a good point. I was going to talk about, and we can maybe come back to it, when to talk about your OCD to your partner, when it's appropriate, when you feel it's appropriate, this difference between wanting to confess about your own OCD and feeling like they need to know right now that I have OCD so I'm not dishonest with them and I don't hit them with the big secret down the road. We can talk about that. But you raised-- wow, it was a really interesting point that I totally forgot. Katie, what did you just say? Go ahead. Katie: No, I was just talking about not being in a relationship because of the OCD and really having--  Ethan: I remember. Katie: Okay, go ahead. You got it.   HOW TO HELP YOUR LOVED ONE UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE OCD Ethan: Yeah. I'd be curious to Kim's thoughts. But I think with OCD individuals, whether it's a significant other or family and friends, and I've been talking about this a lot lately, we've talked about, okay, how do I get someone to understand what OCD is? How do I help them understand what I'm going through? We did a town hall on family dynamics last week for the IOCDF and we've had multiple conversations about this. I'd be curious to Kim's thoughts. I think there's a difference between having a partner or a family member, whatever, being able to support you in an effective, healthy, communicative way, and fully understanding what you're going through. I think those are two different things. I don't think that an individual needs to know and feel exactly what you're experiencing going through to be able to understand and support you. I think as individuals with OCD, we have this inherent need for our partners or people that we care about to know exactly how we feel and exactly what we're going through. “You need to know my pain to understand me.” I think that is a big misnomer.  I think honestly, that's a potential impossible trap for a relationship when you're dating someone or with someone that doesn't have OCD. The likelihood of that individual, while you can give them examples, the likelihood of them actually truly understanding your own OCD experience is unlikely. Just like if Katie had had cancer and went through treatment, I'll never know what that's like. But that doesn't mean that I can't be sympathetic and empathetic and support her and learn about the disease state and be able to be a really, really wonderful partner to her. I think for individuals that are in relationships with individuals that don't have OCD, if you resonate with this, being able to release this idea of like, they need to know exactly what I've gone through. Really the real thing they need to know is, how can I be a supportive partner? How can I support you in a meaningful, healthy, value-driven way so we can have the best possible relationship? I don't know if I ever said that, but Kim, I'd be open to your thoughts.  Kimberley: No, I agree. Because the facts are, they won't get it. No matter how much you want them to get it, they will get it, but they won't have experienced something similar to you. But I think like anything, there's a degree of common humanity in that they can relate without completely having to go through it. They can relate in that I too know what it's like to be uncertain or I too know what it's like to have high levels of anxiety. Or even if they don't, I too can understand your need for certainty in this moment or whatever it may be.  I think the other thing to know too is often when someone needs to be understood and they insist on it, that's usually a shame response. There's a degree of shame that by being understood, that may actually resolve some of that shame. If that's the case, they can take that shame to therapy and work through that and get some skills to manage that, because shame does come with mental illness. Often I find some of the biggest fights between couples were triggered by a shame emotion. They felt shame or they felt embarrassed or humiliated, or they felt less than in some way, or the boxing gloves are on. How do you handle, in this case, conflict around-- I don't know whether you have any conflict, but has conflict came up around this and how do you handle it? SHAME + GUILT IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH OCD Katie: One piece with the last component, and then I'll shift into this. I think as you were talking, the shame piece resonates with me so much. I'm definitely someone that even through the OCD experience, guilt and shame are much heavier for me than anxiety or fear or anything else, that feeling really challenging. I think that the biggest piece that helped to combat that actually had to do with my relationship with Ethan, not specifically because he knew every ounce of my themes or what I was going through, but simply because of the empathy that he showed me. I talk often about how because of shame in my OCD journey, one of the reasons I struggled to get better for a long time was I didn't feel like I deserved it. I didn't feel like I was good enough because of my intrusive thoughts. I didn't like myself very much. I hated myself actually. Ethan, by loving me, gave me (I'm going to get emotional) permission to love myself for the first time. It wasn't because he specifically knew the ins and outs of my themes, but simply because he offered empathy and loved me as a human being, and showed me that I could do that for myself. That was a huge step forward for me. I think every partner can do that.  I used to talk with my students when I was in education about empathy, and I would always say you don't have to experience the exact same thing that your friend experienced to say, “Oh, I can put myself in your shoes.” To your point, Kim, I know what sadness feels like. I know what this feels like. I know what that feels like. I think just showing empathy to your partner, but also showing them that they truly do deserve love in the midst of whatever they're experiencing with their OCD can be such a healing component. I just wanted to say that, and now I've forgotten the other part of your question.  Ethan: Well, wait, before she asks it, can I piggyback?  Kimberley: Yeah.  Ethan: I'm going to just offer to Katie. Katie's shared that story before and it's really special. Always, I was just being me and seeing something beautiful in her and wanting it to shine. But something that I don't think I've ever talked about ever is what she did for me in that same context. I always saw myself as a really shiny car, and if you saw me surface, I was really desirable. I knew my first impressions were really solid. But if you got in me and started driving, I got a little less shiny as the deeper you went. It was really hard to get close to Katie and let her in. Katie and I haven't talked about this in a while, but when we started getting intimate, I would never take my shirt off with the light on. I would hold my shirt over my stomach because I was embarrassed about my body. She's an athlete. I'm not an athlete. When we would walk and I would get out of breath, the level of embarrassment and shame, I would feel like, how could this person love me? Now I'm going to get emotional, but it took me a long time to be able to-- this morning, I was downstairs making breakfast without a shirt. I didn't think about it. She taught me that the parts of myself that I thought were the ugliest could actually be loved. I had never experienced that beyond my parents. But even beyond that, I don't know that they had seen pieces of my OCD, pieces of me as a human being, as an individual. Katie taught me about unconditional pure love and that even what I deemed the most disgusting, grossest parts of myself, even seeing those.  My biggest fear with Katie was her seeing me. I don't panic often, like have major panic freakouts, but there are a few things that I do. My biggest fear was her seeing me. I kept saying, “Just wait. Wait till you see this, Ethan.” It comes out every now and again. “You won't love that person.” Early on, I had a thing that I panicked and she was nothing but love and didn't change anything. For weeks, I was like, “How can you still love me?”  It doesn't necessarily relate to your question, but I wanted to share that because I think that for so many that really see themselves as broken or cracked, I think it's real easy to look really good on the surface. But I think that being willing to be vulnerable and honest and truthful-- and Katie's the first woman I've ever done that with, where I was literally willing to go there despite what my OCD told me, despite what my head told me and my brain told me. I just think that's also created a really solid foundation for our relationship. I just wanted to share that. Kimberley: That full vulnerability is like the exposure of all exposures. To actually really let your partner see you in your perceived ugliness, not that there's ever any ugliness, but that perceived, that's the exposure of all exposures in my mind. You have to really use your skills and be willing to ride that wave, and that can be really painful. I love that you guys shared that. Thank you for sharing that, because I think that that's true for even any relationship. That is truly thriving in Relationships with OCD! Katie: Absolutely. SEEING BEYOND OCD  Ethan: Yeah, for sure. OCD can definitely get sticky even with that. It'll start to question, well, does she still love me because of that? She says she does, but does she really-- even my brain now goes, “She can't possibly love my body. That doesn't make sense. That doesn't make sense.” So funny thing about Katie, we were early on in our dating, we were struggling. She's laying on me. She's like, “You're the most comfortable boyfriend I've ever had.” I was like, “Yeah.” And then I started thinking like all she'd ever dated before me were triathletes, like washboard dudes. I was like, “Huh, thank you?” She's like, “No, no, it's a good thing. It's a good thing.” I'm like, “Okay. Yeah.” It's very funny, but I also loved it. Katie: I do the same thing with you. I mean, all the time, everything's still. Three years in, we're getting married in September, stuff will come up and it's like, “Wait, you saw this, this part of myself that I think is really ugly. You still love me?” Like, what? It gives me permission every time to love myself. Ethan: That's such an interesting relationship dichotomy between the two of us. I don't mean to venture away from your question, Kim, but it's so interesting. I don't see any of the things that she sees in herself. She could freak out for a week and I would still see her as this perfect individual who I couldn't love more. She feels the same about me. It's so weird because we see each other in the same light, but we don't see ourselves in that light. It is amazing and I feel a little selfish here to have a partner to be able to remind me of how I should see myself. I hope that I give Katie that same reminder and reassurance, but it really is amazing to be able to see that within our partner because I'll do something and I'll be like, “Wow.” She's like, “Yeah, that didn't change anything for me.” I'm like, “Really?” Because that's how I feel like, “Oh, okay.” Because that's how I feel when you do. “Okay, we're on the same page.” Kimberley: Let's just delete the last question because I want to follow this. I love this so much. It actually makes me a bit teary too, so we might as well just cry together. What would you say to do for those who don't understand OCD and maybe perceive it as “ugliness”? I'm sure there are those listening who are thinking, “I wish my partner could see beyond my anxiety and how I cope.” What advice would you give to them?  Katie: Ethan, you go first. Ethan: It's a hard question. It's a hard question to answer. It's thundering and you get it twice since we're in the same house. I think one thing I was going to say before, and maybe this will get tight, and this doesn't answer your question directly, Kim, but I'm hoping we can get to it, is when somebody asks me like, “I have OCD and I want to date and get in a relationship, well, how do I do that?” I have very strong feelings about that particular question because I don't want to dive into acceptance and commitment therapy and this whole concept of being able to do both things simultaneously, which is very value driven and we're going to feel the feels and have the ick and we don't have to wait for the perfect moment. But I've always believed that if your OCD at that time is so severe that it's going to heavily impact your relationship, and the reason that you have to tell the person that you're interested in all about your OCD is because you have expectations of that person to reassure and enable, and you're going to need that from that person, I would always say, you might not want to get in a relationship right now. That may not be the best timing for you to get in a relationship.  I always would want somebody to ask themselves like, if you're in therapy and you're in treatment or wherever you are in your process and you know that you shouldn't be seeking things from somebody and reassurance, enabling and so forth and so on, then that's a different conversation. But I think at first, being honest and true to ourselves about why we're divulging, why we want them to know about our OCD, and what we're going to get out of this relationship—doing that from the beginning, I think, then trickles over into your question, Kim, about like, what if they don't understand? What if they don't get it? Because going into a relationship with this idea of, “Well, they need to know so they can keep my OCD comfortable,” is very different than my OCD doesn't necessarily play a prominent role in my life, or maybe it does, but I'm in treatment and I need them to know and then they may not understand. I think that that's like a different path and trajectory. Katie? Yeah, go ahead.  Katie: I think that's such an important component. It's interesting. I heard a very different side of the question. I was thinking about maybe someone who is already in, whether it's a romantic relationship or-- Ethan: No, that was the question. I didn't know what to say yet, so I was being like, “Well...” Yeah, no, that was the question. You heard that right. YOU ARE WORTHY & LOVABLE WITH OCD Katie: It was really important too. This might sound really simplistic, but I think it's so important. Just based on, oh my goodness, my experiences with feeling for such a long time, I was defined by my OCD or defined by my intrusive thoughts, or, oh, how could anybody love me in the midst of all of this? I want everybody to hear that regardless of how your OCD is making you feel right now, or how you're feeling, you are not defined by your OCD. You are not defined by your intrusive thoughts. You are not defined by your disorder. You are an amazing human being that is worthy of love in all of its forms, and you're worthy of love from yourself. You're also worthy of love from a partner. I think sometimes there's this feeling of, well, I don't deserve love because of my OCD, or I don't deserve someone to be nice to me or to treat me well. I've also seen folks fall into that trap. I've been in relationships that weren't particularly healthy because I felt like I didn't deserve someone to be kind to me because of my OCD, or like, oh, well, I'm just too much of a pain because of my obsessions or my compulsions, so of course, I don't deserve anything good in this sense.  I want you to hear that wherever you are in your journey, you do deserve love and respect in all of its forms, and that the people that are around you, that truly love you, yes, there are moments that are hard just like they are for me and Ethan, where sometimes there might be frustrations. But those people that truly love you authentically, I really believe will be with you in the midst of all of those highs and lows, and continue to offer you love and respect and help you to offer yourself that same love and respect that you so deeply deserve. Kimberley: I love that. I think that that speaks to relationships in general in that they're bumpy and they're hard. I think sometimes OCD and anxiety can make us think they're supposed to be perfect too, and we forget that it's hard work. Relationships are work and it takes a lot of diligence and value-based actions. I think that that is a huge piece of what you're bringing to the table. I want to be respectful of your time. Closing out, is there anything that you feel like you want the listeners to hear in regards to relationships and yourself in a relationship? Do you want to go first, Ethan? Ethan: Sure. Yeah, I agree. Let Katie close out. She's amazing. I just want to echo, honestly, the last thing that Katie said was perfect, and I wholeheartedly agree. What would I want to bring into a relationship? I want to bring in my OCD or myself, what is going to be my contribution to a relationship, a romantic relationship. I definitely would want to bring me into it. I want to bring Ethan and not Ethan's OCD. That doesn't mean that Ethan's OCD won't tag along for the ride, but I definitely don't want Katie to be initially dating my OCD. I wanted her to date Ethan.  I think what Katie said about that directly relates in the sense that love yourself, value yourself, realize your worth, know your worth. It's so hard with OCD, the shame and the stigma and just feeling like your brain is broken and you don't deserve these things, and you don't deserve love. What's wrong? It's so hard. I mean, I say it humbly. When I say go into a relationship with these things, I know it's not that simple. But I think that if you can find that place where you know what you have to offer as a human being and you know who you are and what you have to give, and it doesn't have to be specific. You don't have to figure yourself out of your life out, simply just who your heart is and what you have to give like, I don't know who I am entirely; I just know that I have a lot of love to give and I want to give it to as many people as possible—own that and don't be afraid to leave crappy relationships that are good, that because it's feels safe or comfortable, it's the devil you know in terms of how it relates to your OCD. You're not broken. You're not bad. You shouldn't feel shame. OCD is a disorder. It's a disease, and you deserve, as Katie said, a meaningful, beautiful love relationship with whomever you want that with. You deserve that for yourself. Stay true to who you are. Stay true to your values. If that's where you are now, or if it isn't where you are now, be willing to take a risk to be able to find that big, as Katie says, beautiful life that you deserve. It's out there and it's there.  To Kim's point, I'm sorry, this is a very long last statement, so I apologize. But to Kim's point, relationships are hard and life is hard. I really believed when I got better from OCD that in six months, I was going to meet my soulmate, make a million dollars, and everything would be perfect. Life did not happen like that at all. It's 15 years later. But at a certain point, I was like, “I'm never meeting my person. OCD is not even in the way right now, and I'm never meeting my person. I'm never going to fall in love. I'm never going to get married.” Now we're four months away from my wedding to being married to the most amazing human being. I truly believe that that exists for everyone out there in this community. Living a life that is doing things that I never would imagine in a million years. Please know that it's there and it's out there. If you put in the work, whether it happens the next day, the next year, or the next decade, it's possible and it's beautiful. Embrace it and run towards it.  Kimberley: Beautiful. Katie? Katie: I feel like there isn't much I can add to that. I'm going to get teary listening to that. I think I'll just close similar to what I was sharing before for anyone listening, whether it is someone with OCD or a partner or a family member, whomever that is, that you deserve love and compassion from yourself and from every single person around you. You are not defined by your OCD. It is okay, especially if you're a partner, if you don't respond perfectly around OCD all the time, because you know what, we are in the midst of a perfectly imperfect journey, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. But if you continue to lead with love, with empathy, and with compassion, and with trusting who you are, not who the OCD says you are, I truly believe that you'll be able to continue to move towards your personal values, but also towards your relationship values, and that you so deeply deserve that. Kimberley: Oh, I feel like I got a big hug right now. Thank you, guys, for being here. I'm so grateful for you both taking the time to talk with me about this. Most of the time when someone comes to see me and we talk about like, why would you ever face your fear? Why would you ever do these scary hard things? They always say, “Because I've got this person I love,” or “I want this relationship to work,” or “I want to be there for my child.” I do think that is what Thriving in Relationships with OCD is all about. Thank you so much for coming on the show.  Katie: Thank you for having us.Ethan: Thank you for having us.

In this episode you will hear Host Katie Carey and  Guest Speaker Tami Roach discuss her thrilling chapter Spirit Rescue. - Exploring the concept of ancestral healing and its significance in personal and collective growth. - Understanding the role of a spirit rescuer in releasing trapped or lost spirits and restoring balance in the spiritual realm. - Delving into the transformative power of healing lineages and the impact it can have on individuals and their ancestral connections. - Examining the existence of unseen forces and their influence on our lives and perceptions. - Discussing the intersection of spirituality and personal growth, and how it can lead to profound transformation. - Highlighting the importance of curiosity and open-mindedness in exploring the spirit world and understanding our place within it. - Offering thought-provoking insights and perspectives on spirituality, supernatural phenomena, and the power of love and light. .................................................................................................................................................................................................... In this captivating episode, join host Katie as she engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Tami, a passionate spirit rescuer. Together, they explore the profound impact of healing ancestral lineages and the transformative power it holds for individuals, their ancestors, and future generations. Tami shares her deep understanding of the spiritual realm and encourages listeners to embrace the unseen forces that exist beyond our five senses. With heartfelt enthusiasm, Katie and Tami discuss the importance of recognising our innate gifts and the potential they hold for personal and collective growth. As Tami's inspiring journey unfolds, they delve into the significance of love and the opportunity we have to make the world a brighter place. Join them on this enlightening episode as they invite you to embark on a remarkable exploration of the spirit world. Don't miss out on this extraordinary conversation that will awaken your curiosity and expand your perception of reality. .................................................................................................................................................................................................... Tami's Biography Tami is a lifelong resident of the rural Catskill Mountains of New York and the youngest of seven girls. She is an Empath, Certified Reiki Master, Level 1 Akashic Records reader, a Dragon Protocol Practitioner, and a Spirit Rescuer. Wait! What is a Spirit Rescuer? She is a medium who communicates with, begins the healing process for, and crosses over earthbound souls who have existed in the darkness and have a pervasive fear of the earthbound realm anywhere from a few years to a few thousand years. She helps earthbound souls to cross over to the Other Side so that they may continue their souls' journey in the Light and love of Home as Creator/God/Source always intended. As she does so, she eases the darkness and lightens up the Earth while brightening up the Other Side/Heaven/Home as loved ones are reunited, and she assists humanity and Gaia in their ascension. To connect with Tami, please email her at: spiritrescuer@yahoo.com.  ..................................................................................................................................................................................................... Ready to Become a Best Selling Author Yet? Reach out to Katie who offers bespoke publishing and mentorship services for Soul Led Visionary Leaders.  Connect with Katie Carey at https://www.soulfulvalley.com Join Katie's mailing list here to be the first to know about opportunities to collaborate with her Podcast Guest & Author Opportunities | Soulful Valley This podcast is now sponsored by Katie's Amazon Store, where you can find her books, and recommended books and products relating to Health, Wellbeing, Podcasting and Writing and  Publishing.  Katie Carey's Amazon page ......................................................................................................................................................................................... Episode Full Transcript **Katie**: Hello and Welcome to the Soulful Valley Podcast. Tami Tami: Hello Katie It's great to have you here Tami...Now Tami is one of the authors collaborating in the new book Evolving on Purpose Co-Creating with the Divine, that we're launching on the 30th of August… Tami, can you just let our listeners know a bit about who you are and what you do in the world?  **Tami**: I am a certified Reiki master. I'm an Akashic Records reader. I'm a Dragon protocol practitioner. I'm a mom. I'm an everyday, earthy kind of person. But I am also what I call the spirit rescuer. Which means I am a medium, who crosses over earthbound souls so that they can go home and be reunited with their loved ones in the light.  **Katie**:Thank you for sharing that. And I have to tell you, when I received your application, something happened. I just stopped suddenly still. My heart skipped a beat and I was like, wow, I want this chapter because I had just come across spirit releasement through somebody else in our community of authors and been on a spirit releasement session with her myself. So I already knew a little bit about what you were talking about. That isn't what normally happens in spiritual circles or through mediumship, in the way that you do it. And I just thought it was so beautiful, what a beautiful way to cross spirit over instead of making them a spectacle where people come for entertainment and things like that. I just thought this was such a loving way to be a bit more understanding about the reality of spirit. **Tami**: Exactly.  **Katie**:It's not just a couple of people who think they've seen this, it is very real, and I just love the way you deal with it. And you've written a chapter called Spirit Rescue. **Tami**:Yes.  **Katie**:an you just explain a little bit about that chapter? **Tami**: I kind of give, for other mediums, my guides, my team, my spirit team has asked me and guided me to you, Katie, to get the word out, so to speak, about what I do, about spirit rescue, about the existence, and the reality that there are earthbound souls who need our assistance to go home. They cannot go home on their own, so they need mediums who have the ability to do this, to help them. But there is a fear around the earthbound souls. They tend to evoke a lot of fear from people. My chapter is to, more or less, help people to understand that these souls are just like you and I. They have their own fears, they've made their mistakes in the past, in their life, and this is part of what holds them back. The reason that they did not crossover into the light, to begin with, is because of their own fears, their own thoughts, their own traumas, and their own wounds that they weren't able to heal in life. So my chapter is kind of about helping them, listening to them, letting them get their story told, getting down to the core issues of their wounds, their traumas, their fears, and helping them to overcome this, to rectify the wrongs that they did in life with other people that they may have wronged during their lives. And to help these people come together in spirit, rectify these issues, rectify the wounds, heal, so that they are all able to crossover and go into the light to continue their souls' journey in the light with their loved ones, with their ancestors. I have a lot of families coming in where they require ancestral lineage healing, you know, four or five generations of healing.  So some of them can crossover relatively quickly, some of them. I've had one gentleman with four generations stay with me for 12 weeks to perform the healing and all of this because some of them are not so open, but you work through it just like you would with anyone if they were sitting here in the physical form with you. So it's a challenge sometimes, but it is absolutely the most beautiful feeling in the world to be able to help these souls find themselves, heal, and go home. And in doing that, not only does this help them, but it also helps to lighten up the darkness that surrounds the Earth, really, with millions upon millions, countless millions of earthbound souls that really just need to go home. So little by little, this is what I do to help them go home, to lighten up everything else around us, the collective energy. It will help Gaia with her ascension, it helps humanity with all of our ascension. And it's just, I can't think of a more beautiful way to help the collective altogether.  **Katie**:And it's a huge responsibility and mission for you, isn't it? You said Spirit guided you to me, so what does that look like?  **Tami**:There was a point in time when I was indicating with my team and one of my Ascended Master guides defined darkness to me as the absence of light. He said that the longer souls are in the earthbound realm, in the dark, in the fear, away from divine light, the darker it all becomes, the darker that they can become, the darker it all becomes. And what he said to me next, I will never forget and this is really what inspired me to do what I do and find another way to help spirits. He said to me, "You are God's feet on the ground, loosening the grip of darkness on humanity." I found that to be beautifully said and it settled in my heart space. This is what I need to do. How can I get this out there on a bigger scale so that maybe other mediums can start to, at least consider, if not pick up the practice to cross the earth bounds over? And I would say, probably two to three months after he said that to me, I found a post on Facebook, "Co-creating with the Divine with Katie Carey and Social Valley Publishing." And I said, "Is it? This is how I do it."  **Katie**: Ah, I'm getting shivers...  ***Tami**:Beautiful confirmation.  **Katie**:And you would have discovered that as well, that I am very open to all of this. And that's what this podcast is all about, is talking about this kind of thing and bringing it into mainstream thinking that this is real, this is not woowoo. This is very real and there are so many mediums in the world now. That would be a great gift, wouldn't it, to us all?  ***Tami**: Absolutely. **Katie**:To the earth if they used their mediumship in such a positive way. Because I find as well, I used to go to spiritual church and I sat in circle, a couple of circles. And what you see as well is a lot of people come over and over again. They come for the readings over and over again. But not a lot changes. It's like a bit of a cycle that you can get stuck in, but this is something very different because it can release those spirits and release the human that's tortured from that past that they're still traumatized by, still trying to live with it.  So it's just the whole cycle, isn't it? How you can help the whole, not just, you know, one person feel better for a week until the next time.  **Tami**:Right. It allows these souls to go on a positive forward trajectory, an upward movement in their journey. They can continue on their soul's journey in the light. You know, if we can heal the ancestral lineages, it not only heals their ancestors, it heals them and it heals descendants coming forward. So it's just... I just can't think of a more beautiful way to help spirit at this point in time, to help humanity, to help Gaia. I mean, I just... I can't say enough. **Katie**:And it is time that we recognize that, you know, what we understand as reality and perceive as reality is only 1% of what's really out there. **Tami**:Exactly. **Katie**:And we've got to take that seriously. We've got to start looking beyond the five senses, suddenly, because we all have gifts that we just don't understand that we have. And then? Dance. It was all very exciting. I can't wait until we get your chapter out in this book and into the hands of lots of mediums because I'm surrounded by mediums as well, so I'm really excited about this. **Tami**:Me too. I can't wait. **Katie**:And seriously, when your application came in, it was... It was the... I've never felt this way about any of the other applications that came in, so it was a real... I was like bolted up bright when I saw it and I was really excited about it. And I shared it with my partner and he was really excited about it. **Tami**:Thank you. That makes me so happy to hear. **Katie**:Yeah, because you might not think that people would be as receptive. But I think they will. I think a lot of people will. Is there anything else you'd like to share today, Tami?  **Tami**:I just hope that mediums, humanity in general, can start to embrace, as you said, that there are things... Spirit... out there that maybe you cannot see, but it does not mean that they don't exist. It's very real. They're very real. And I know that it can evoke a certain amount of discomfort on a general level for most of humanity. They can evoke fear among the general population. But the majority again are just trying to let you know they need help. Yeah. And I hope that more of us can embrace them and embrace the opportunity to assist the entire world, really. To help make everything lighter and brighter for everyone. It all comes down to love, Katie.  **Katie**:It does. And if there's anybody out there reading a book, listening to the podcast, and they are excited about what you're doing, how can they connect with you and what can I do? **Tami**:I don't have a formal business yet, but they can contact me at my email, which is spiritrescuer@yahoo.com. **Katie**:ou don't have a formal business yet. I can see where this is going. I feel like this is going to be your mission to guide the mediums in this direction, so I'm excited about the future. **Tami**:Me too, I cannot wait. I am just so ready to embrace it, to get out there and just help everyone. **Katie**:That's wonderful. Thank you for your time today, Tami. **Tami**:Thank you, Katie. It's been a pleasure talking **Katie**:Bye For Now **Tami**:Bye Outro You've been listening to the Soulful Valley podcast.I trust that you will have heard something today that you were ready to hear, and that's made you feel a little lighter, more aligned and connected with your soul 's purpose.And.And the true nature of the power that you hold within you.My aim for this podcast is to bring love, light, wisdom, raise consciousness and ease suffering. If you've enjoyed the show, go back and listen to some of the back catalogue of previous episodes.Subscribe, follow, rate, and review so that you're notified when new episodes drop in, and share this podcast with anyone that you think it may help to listen to it. You can connect with me, it's soulful valley.com and if you scroll to the bottom of the website, there are links to my social media platform.     

Former BuzzFeed reporter Katie Notopoulos spent the first few days posting on Meta's Twitter copycat, Threads, as if she were the editor-in-chief of the new app. “As EIC, it's a lot of work! I'm personally curating the feed for users based on all of Meta's information on them to bring each person a hand-curated feed that I've approved,” Notopoulos posted on Threads. While Meta tolerated the ruse, the company censored one of her more roguish posts. “At Threads, our expectation is for all users to treat others with kindness and respect. This encompasses acknowledging the choice to adopt a Nazi lifestyle. We embrace a diverse community,” she trolled.Ultimately, Notopoulos announced that she had been fired from her role as editor-in-chief. I invited her on the show, along with Dead Cat podcast defector Tom Dotan, who abandoned our old podcast in favor of a gig at the Wall Street Journal. Together, we made sense of the Threads-Twitter rivalry. We talked on Friday so a few of our stats on Threads' growth might be outdated. Threads has since exceeded 100 million users and Elon Musk has proposed a “literal dick measuring contest” and called Zuckerberg a “cuck.” Otherwise, I think you'll find our conversation perfectly current. It's a lively episode. I posit that Threads will quickly become the Uber to Twitter's Lyft. I didn't just invite Notopoulos on the show because she has been a Threads troll and a the thorn in the side of Meta. She is famous for her extremely online, yet carefully reported pieces from her time at BuzzFeed. She wrote a piece titled, “Chuck E. Cheese Still Uses Floppy Disks To Make Its Rodent Mascot Dance — For Now.” And she revealed the real names of the Bored Apes founders. BuzzFeed is paying her for the next few months after the company shut down its news division. So she's had plenty of time to spend on Threads. Dotan once covered Snapchat obsessively and we spent many Dead Cat episodes talking about Facebook, so I thought this would be a fun episode to have him back on the show — even if the Journal has muzzled how wild he can be in his pronouncements. We concluded the show talking about a much more Newcomer-y topic. Dotan wrote last week about how AI had stemmed tech's downturn. He reported:The Nasdaq has risen 32% this year—the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 3.4%—while Microsoft shares have climbed 41% and Nvidia shares have almost tripled on the back of optimism that AI will bolster their businesses.Companies that had been touting their cost-cutting and apologizing for hiring too many people in recent years have been adding to the excitement by broadcasting their AI ambitions. Of the S&P 500 companies with earnings conference calls from the middle of March to late May, 110 mentioned AI, according to FactSet. That is a record high and around three times the 10-year average.  Give it a listenHighlighted ExcerptsThe transcript has been edited for clarity.Eric: Will threads be bigger than Twitter? Will it be the Uber to Twitter's Lyft?Katie: I predict yes.Tom: Twitter in its current state? Not at its peak? Yeah, such a low bar.Katie: Twitter still has advantages over Threads, like anonymity and retaining large followings. [Instagram Head] Adam Mosseri recently mentioned that Threads won't be a place for news.Eric: Threads aims to be a “nice” platform, countering the mean-spiritedness associated with Elon Musk and promoting a friendlier environment. Do you think the personality and positioning of Facebook will play a significant role, or is it all about the product and Instagram's connection?Katie: It's a combination. Threads' success will come from being a product under Instagram, which many people don't realize is owned by Facebook. On the other hand, people are leaving Twitter because of Elon Musk's presence.Tom: Facebook has a history of copying features in response to perceived threats, such as stories. However, Twitter isn't a threat. This opportunistic move by Facebook. To launch Threads won't magically fix the limitations of text-based platforms. We're in an era of niche social media experiences, and reaching a billion users with this format is unlikely. It's unfair to hold that expectation. Nonetheless, with 70 million users already, it can be considered a success.Katie: The Instagram account provided a dictionary where a conversation is referred to as a thread. For example, I was reading some intriguing threads that Eric was discussing. However, an individual post is still called a post, and instead of a retweet, it's called a repost.Eric: What are your thoughts on what was happening there? I found it very strange that they were dictating the language they want people to use. I couldn't determine if they're worried people will start using terms like “tweet” and if they wanted to discourage that.Katie: I interpreted it similarly. People were genuinely asking, you know, what should we call them? Since they're not tweets, do we call them retweets? What should we call them? I think the worst-case scenario would be if people started jokingly referring to them as “threats,” which is probably not what they intended.Eric: People are really enjoying wordplay, and personally, I'm not a fan of that. There are posts about your followers or your thread count. It's like a new summer camp where everyone is trying to come up with the language that will dominate the platform.Katie: Absolutely. And it's important to remember that there are a lot more people signing up than they expected, maybe around 70 million or something. But most of these users aren't on Twitter and don't know anything about it. They're not comparing it to Twitter. It's mostly regular users, like 16-year-olds in Brazil, who are thinking, “Oh, a new platform? Where does this fit in with Instagram? Just tell me what to do.” The user base is incredibly diverse, which is why it's very straightforward in terms of understanding.Tom: Explain to me, though, why people who have never liked Twitter would suddenly join a Twitter copycat and find it useful. Twitter has been around for a while, and its mechanics and design haven't broadly appealed to more than 200-300 million users. So why now are they expecting people in Brazil, who have ignored Twitter for the first decade of its existence, to suddenly find “thread” compelling just because they can use their Instagram handle and easily sign up?Katie: Personally, as someone eager to test out new apps, I preordered it on iTunes so that it would be ready for download at exactly 7 pm. I was excited about it because I follow technology news and knew there was a new app coming out. But for most people, I don't think they heard about the app and actively went to the App Store to look for it. I assume that when most people opened Instagram, they received a prompt to click and experience the new threads. They were signed up right from inside the Instagram app. So, anyone who opened Instagram yesterday was directed to join the app. They might have thought, “I'm not sure what this is, but I like Instagram, so I'll give it a try.”Eric: It seems like there are a couple of factors at play. There's definitely a disdain for Elon Musk, particularly among reporters and the left, including myself. I feel like that revolt and the desire of that crowd to find a new home helped motivate this, which is amusing because those same individuals have been critical of Zuck over the past five years.Katie: I think it's a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” to a large extent. That seems to be the prevailing sentiment.Eric: Indeed. It's obviously Instagram's power to bring Instagram users to the new app. Additionally, there are people who believe in getting on a platform early and building followers. So it's like these three groups trying to coexist—the social media managers who want to grow their accounts in case it becomes the next big thing, the Twitter rebels, and the Instagram influencers who are being told that this is part of the app.Katie: I have another theory as well. When you sign up for the app, the feed is currently purely algorithmic, and it includes a lot of content from people you don't follow. There's probably a lot of enthusiasm from these big celebrities who haven't found success on TikTok and are holding onto Instagram as an essential platform for their careers. Fans and regular users are excited because they suddenly see celebrities who hadn't posted on Twitter for years.Eric: What are people's opinions on the algorithmic feed? I think the average person wants an algorithmic feed.Katie: I believe so too. Instagram has continued to have an algorithmic feed for years because multiple tests have shown that it's what people actually want.Katie: Another important factor to consider is the timing of the app's launch. Summer is the ideal season for such apps because teenagers are out of school and have more time to use their phones. The current success can be attributed to the high number of young users who are typically in school during other times of the year. While the app's popularity may decline in the fall, I don't think it will fade away like Clubhouse did.Tom: Additionally, Facebook can easily maintain the app without much effort. Even if it reaches its peak user base, let's say around 100 million, and then gradually declines to 50 or 60 million, it will still be manageable for Facebook to sustain it. The operating costs are likely low, mainly cloud computing expenses, and it might even serve as an ad platform. For Facebook, it could be a side project that requires minimal effort. If it also happens to cause some inconvenience for Elon Musk and the ongoing competition in Silicon Valley, then that's an added bonus. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

Former BuzzFeed reporter Katie Notopoulos spent the first few days posting on Meta's Twitter copycat, Threads, as if she were the editor-in-chief of the new app. “As EIC, it's a lot of work! I'm personally curating the feed for users based on all of Meta's information on them to bring each person a hand-curated feed that I've approved,” Notopoulos posted on Threads. While Meta tolerated the ruse, the company censored one of her more roguish posts. “At Threads, our expectation is for all users to treat others with kindness and respect. This encompasses acknowledging the choice to adopt a Nazi lifestyle. We embrace a diverse community,” she trolled.Ultimately, Notopoulos announced that she had been fired from her role as editor-in-chief. I invited her on the show, along with Dead Cat podcast defector Tom Dotan, who abandoned our old podcast in favor of a gig at the Wall Street Journal. Together, we made sense of the Threads-Twitter rivalry. We talked on Friday so a few of our stats on Threads' growth might be outdated. Threads has since exceeded 100 million users and Elon Musk has proposed a “literal dick measuring contest” and called Zuckerberg a “cuck.” Otherwise, I think you'll find our conversation perfectly current. It's a lively episode. I posit that Threads will quickly become the Uber to Twitter's Lyft. I didn't just invite Notopoulos on the show because she has been a Threads troll and a the thorn in the side of Meta. She is famous for her extremely online, yet carefully reported pieces from her time at BuzzFeed. She wrote a piece titled, “Chuck E. Cheese Still Uses Floppy Disks To Make Its Rodent Mascot Dance — For Now.” And she revealed the real names of the Bored Apes founders. BuzzFeed is paying her for the next few months after the company shut down its news division. So she's had plenty of time to spend on Threads. Dotan once covered Snapchat obsessively and we spent many Dead Cat episodes talking about Facebook, so I thought this would be a fun episode to have him back on the show — even if the Journal has muzzled how wild he can be in his pronouncements. We concluded the show talking about a much more Newcomer-y topic. Dotan wrote last week about how AI had stemmed tech's downturn. He reported:The Nasdaq has risen 32% this year—the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up 3.4%—while Microsoft shares have climbed 41% and Nvidia shares have almost tripled on the back of optimism that AI will bolster their businesses.Companies that had been touting their cost-cutting and apologizing for hiring too many people in recent years have been adding to the excitement by broadcasting their AI ambitions. Of the S&P 500 companies with earnings conference calls from the middle of March to late May, 110 mentioned AI, according to FactSet. That is a record high and around three times the 10-year average.  Give it a listenHighlighted ExcerptsThe transcript has been edited for clarity.Eric: Will threads be bigger than Twitter? Will it be the Uber to Twitter's Lyft?Katie: I predict yes.Tom: Twitter in its current state? Not at its peak? Yeah, such a low bar.Katie: Twitter still has advantages over Threads, like anonymity and retaining large followings. [Instagram Head] Adam Mosseri recently mentioned that Threads won't be a place for news.Eric: Threads aims to be a “nice” platform, countering the mean-spiritedness associated with Elon Musk and promoting a friendlier environment. Do you think the personality and positioning of Facebook will play a significant role, or is it all about the product and Instagram's connection?Katie: It's a combination. Threads' success will come from being a product under Instagram, which many people don't realize is owned by Facebook. On the other hand, people are leaving Twitter because of Elon Musk's presence.Tom: Facebook has a history of copying features in response to perceived threats, such as stories. However, Twitter isn't a threat. This opportunistic move by Facebook. To launch Threads won't magically fix the limitations of text-based platforms. We're in an era of niche social media experiences, and reaching a billion users with this format is unlikely. It's unfair to hold that expectation. Nonetheless, with 70 million users already, it can be considered a success.Katie: The Instagram account provided a dictionary where a conversation is referred to as a thread. For example, I was reading some intriguing threads that Eric was discussing. However, an individual post is still called a post, and instead of a retweet, it's called a repost.Eric: What are your thoughts on what was happening there? I found it very strange that they were dictating the language they want people to use. I couldn't determine if they're worried people will start using terms like “tweet” and if they wanted to discourage that.Katie: I interpreted it similarly. People were genuinely asking, you know, what should we call them? Since they're not tweets, do we call them retweets? What should we call them? I think the worst-case scenario would be if people started jokingly referring to them as “threats,” which is probably not what they intended.Eric: People are really enjoying wordplay, and personally, I'm not a fan of that. There are posts about your followers or your thread count. It's like a new summer camp where everyone is trying to come up with the language that will dominate the platform.Katie: Absolutely. And it's important to remember that there are a lot more people signing up than they expected, maybe around 70 million or something. But most of these users aren't on Twitter and don't know anything about it. They're not comparing it to Twitter. It's mostly regular users, like 16-year-olds in Brazil, who are thinking, “Oh, a new platform? Where does this fit in with Instagram? Just tell me what to do.” The user base is incredibly diverse, which is why it's very straightforward in terms of understanding.Tom: Explain to me, though, why people who have never liked Twitter would suddenly join a Twitter copycat and find it useful. Twitter has been around for a while, and its mechanics and design haven't broadly appealed to more than 200-300 million users. So why now are they expecting people in Brazil, who have ignored Twitter for the first decade of its existence, to suddenly find “thread” compelling just because they can use their Instagram handle and easily sign up?Katie: Personally, as someone eager to test out new apps, I preordered it on iTunes so that it would be ready for download at exactly 7 pm. I was excited about it because I follow technology news and knew there was a new app coming out. But for most people, I don't think they heard about the app and actively went to the App Store to look for it. I assume that when most people opened Instagram, they received a prompt to click and experience the new threads. They were signed up right from inside the Instagram app. So, anyone who opened Instagram yesterday was directed to join the app. They might have thought, “I'm not sure what this is, but I like Instagram, so I'll give it a try.”Eric: It seems like there are a couple of factors at play. There's definitely a disdain for Elon Musk, particularly among reporters and the left, including myself. I feel like that revolt and the desire of that crowd to find a new home helped motivate this, which is amusing because those same individuals have been critical of Zuck over the past five years.Katie: I think it's a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” to a large extent. That seems to be the prevailing sentiment.Eric: Indeed. It's obviously Instagram's power to bring Instagram users to the new app. Additionally, there are people who believe in getting on a platform early and building followers. So it's like these three groups trying to coexist—the social media managers who want to grow their accounts in case it becomes the next big thing, the Twitter rebels, and the Instagram influencers who are being told that this is part of the app.Katie: I have another theory as well. When you sign up for the app, the feed is currently purely algorithmic, and it includes a lot of content from people you don't follow. There's probably a lot of enthusiasm from these big celebrities who haven't found success on TikTok and are holding onto Instagram as an essential platform for their careers. Fans and regular users are excited because they suddenly see celebrities who hadn't posted on Twitter for years.Eric: What are people's opinions on the algorithmic feed? I think the average person wants an algorithmic feed.Katie: I believe so too. Instagram has continued to have an algorithmic feed for years because multiple tests have shown that it's what people actually want.Katie: Another important factor to consider is the timing of the app's launch. Summer is the ideal season for such apps because teenagers are out of school and have more time to use their phones. The current success can be attributed to the high number of young users who are typically in school during other times of the year. While the app's popularity may decline in the fall, I don't think it will fade away like Clubhouse did.Tom: Additionally, Facebook can easily maintain the app without much effort. Even if it reaches its peak user base, let's say around 100 million, and then gradually declines to 50 or 60 million, it will still be manageable for Facebook to sustain it. The operating costs are likely low, mainly cloud computing expenses, and it might even serve as an ad platform. For Facebook, it could be a side project that requires minimal effort. If it also happens to cause some inconvenience for Elon Musk and the ongoing competition in Silicon Valley, then that's an added bonus. Get full access to Newcomer at www.newcomer.co/subscribe

In this week's podcast episode, we talked with Dr. Katherine Unverferth on Menopause, anxiety, and mental health. We covered the below topics: How do we define peri-menopause and menopause?  What causes menopause?  Why do some have more menopausal symptoms than others?  Why do some people report rapid rises in anxiety (and even panic disorder) during menopause.  Is the increase in anxiety with menopause biological, physiological, or psychological?  Why do some people experience mood differences or report the onset of depression during menopause?  What treatments are avaialble to help those who are suffering from menopause (or perimenopause) and anxiety and depression? Welcome back, everybody. I am so happy to have you here. We are doing another deep dive into sexual health and anxiety as a part of our Sexual Health and Anxiety Series. We first did an episode on sexual anxiety or sexual performance anxiety. Then we did an episode on arousal and anxiety. That was by me. Then we did an amazing episode on sexual side effects of antidepressants with Dr. Aziz. And then last week, we did another episode by me basically going through all of the sexual intrusive thoughts that often people will have, particularly those who have OCD.  This week, we are deep diving into menopause and anxiety. This is an incredibly important episode specifically for those who are going through menopause or want to be trained to understand what it is like to go through menopause and how menopause impacts our mental health in terms of sometimes people will have an increase in anxiety or depression. This week, we have an amazing guest coming on because this is not my specialty. I try not to speak on things that I don't feel confident talking about. This week, we have the amazing Dr. Katherine Unverferth. She is an Assistant Clinical Professor at The David Geffen School of Medicine and she also serves as the Director of the Women's Life Center and Medical Director of the Maternal Mental Health Program. She is an expert in reproductive psychiatry, which is why we got her on the show. She specializes in treating women during periods of hormonal transitions in her private practice in Santa Monica. She lectures and researches and studies areas on postpartum depression, antenatal depression, postpartum psychosis, premenstrual dysphoric disorder—which we will cover next week, I promise; we have an amazing guest talking about that—and perimenopausal mood and anxiety disorders. I am so excited to have Dr. Unverferth on the show to talk about menopause and the collision between menopause and anxiety. You are going to get so much amazing information on this show, so I'm just going to head straight over there. Again, thank you so much to our guest. Let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Welcome. I am so honored to have Dr. Katherine Unverferth with us talking today about menopause and anxiety. Thank you for coming on the show. Dr. Katie: Of course. Thanks for having me. HOW DO WE DEFINE PERI-MENOPAUSE AND MENOPAUSE?  Kimberley: Okay. I have a ton of questions for you. A lot of these questions were asked from the community, from our crew of people who are really wanting more information about this. We've titled it Menopause and Anxiety, but I want to get really clear, first of all, in terms of the terms and whether we're using them correctly. Can you first define what is menopause, and then we can go from there? Dr. Katie: Definitely. I think when you're talking about menopause, you also have to think about perimenopause. Menopause is defined as the time after the final menstrual period. Meaning, the last menstrual period somebody has. It can only be defined retrospectively, so you typically only know you're in menopause a year after you've had your final menstrual period. But that's the technical definition—after the final menstrual period, it's usually defined one year after. Perimenopause is the time leading up to that where people have hormonal changes. Sometimes they have vasomotor symptoms, they can have mood changes, and that period typically lasts about four years but varies. I think that people often know that they're getting close to menopause because of the perimenopausal symptoms they might be experiencing. Kimberley: Okay. How might somebody know they're going into perimenopause? I think that's how you would say you go into it. Is that right?  Dr. Katie: Yeah. You start experiencing it there. I don't know if there's a specific term.  Kimberley: Sure. How would one know they're moving in that direction?  Dr. Katie: Typically, we look for a few different things. One of the earliest signs is menstrual cycle changes. As someone enters perimenopause, their menstrual cycle starts to lengthen, whereas before, it might have been a normal 28-day cycle. Once it lengthens to greater than seven days, over 35 days, we would start to think of someone might be in perimenopause because it's lengthened significantly from their baseline before.  Other symptoms that are really consistent with perimenopause are vasomotor symptoms. Most women who go through perimenopause will have these. These are hot flashes or hot flushes—those are synonyms for the same experience—and night sweats. Hot flashes, as the name describes what it is, they last about two to four minutes. It's a feeling of warmth that typically begins in the chest or the head and spreads outward, often associated with flushing, with sweating that's followed by a period of chills and sometimes anxiety. The night sweats are hot flashes but in the middle of the night when someone is sleeping, so it can be very disruptive to sleep. That combination of the menstrual cycle changes plus these vasomotor symptoms is typically how we define perimenopause or how we diagnose perimenopause. Once someone is later in perimenopause, when they're getting closer to their final menstrual period, often they'll skip menstrual cycles altogether, so it might be 60 days in between having bleeding. Whereas before, it was a more regular period of time. I think one of the defining features too is hormonal fluctuations during those times. But interestingly, there's not much clinical utility to getting the blood test to check hormone levels because they can vary wildly from cycle to cycle. Overall, what we do see is that certain hormones increase, others decrease, and that probably contributes to some of the symptoms that we see around that time as well. Kimberley: Right, which is so interesting because I think that's why a lot of people come to me and I try to only answer questions I'm skilled to answer. Those symptoms can very much mimic anxiety. I know we'll get into that very soon, but that's really interesting—this idea of hot flashes. I always remember coming home to my mom from school and she was actually in the freezer, except for her feet. It was one of those door freezers. So, I understand the heat that they're feeling, this hot flash, it's a full body hot flash stimulant like someone may have if they're having a panic attack maybe.  Dr. Katie: Exactly. There are lots of interesting studies really looking at the overlap of menopausal panic attacks and hot flashes too. There's a lot of this research that's really trying to suss out what comes first in perimenopause because we know that anxiety predisposes someone to hot flashes and it can predispose someone to panic attacks, which is interesting. It seems like there's this common denominator there. But I think that that's a really interesting thing that hopefully we'll get into this overlap between the two. WHAT AGE DOES SOMEONE GET PERIMENOPAUSE AND MENOPAUSE? Kimberley: I'm guessing this is something I'm moving towards as well. What age groups, what ages does this usually start? What's the demographics for someone going into perimenopause and menopause? Dr. Katie: The average age of menopause is 51, and then people spend about four years in perimenopause. Late 40s would be a typical time to start perimenopause. Basically, any age after 40, when someone's having these symptoms, they're likely in perimenopause. If it happens before the age of 40 where someone's having menstrual cycle abnormalities and they're having these vasomotor symptoms, that might be a sign of primary ovarian insufficiency. It used to be called premature ovarian failure, but that would be a sign that they should probably go see a doctor and get checked out. If it's after 40, it's very likely that they're having perimenopausal symptoms. Kimberley: Okay. What causes this to happen? What are the shifts that happen in people's bodies that lead someone into this period of their life? Dr. Katie: I think there are a lot of things that are going on. I think it's really important to emphasize that menopause is a natural part of aging. That this isn't some abnormal process. Nothing is wrong. It's a natural part of aging. It can still be very uncomfortable, I think. But basically, over time, a woman's eggs decline and the follicles that help these eggs develop also develop less. There's this decline in the functioning of the ovaries. There are a few reasons this might be. There are some studies that show that blood flow to the ovaries is reduced as a result of aging, so maybe that makes them function a little bit less. The follicles that remain in the ovaries are probably aging, and then the follicles, which are still there, also might not be the healthiest of follicles, which is why they weren't used earlier.  There's this combination of things that leads to these very significant hormonal changes that start around perimenopause. The first of these is an increase in follicle-stimulating hormone. Follicle-stimulating hormone is released by the pituitary and encourages the ovaries to develop follicles. That increases over time because the follicles aren't developing in the same way. It's like the pituitary is trying harder and harder to get them to work. At the same time as these, as the follicles and ovaries are aging, what we see is that the ovaries produce less estrogen and progesterone overall. But there's still these wild fluctuations that are happening. FSH is going up, but it's fluctuating up; estrogen and progesterone are going down, but they're fluctuating down. It's these really big shifts that seem to cause a lot of the symptoms that we associate with this time. WHY DO SOME HAVE MORE MENOPAUSAL SYMPTOMS THAN OTHERS?  Kimberley: Is there a reason why some people have more symptoms than others? Is it your genetic component or is there a hormonal component? What's your experience? Dr. Katie: I think there are lots of different reasons and we probably need more research in this area. There are definitely genetic components that influence it. For example, we know that women who have family members who went through menopause earlier are likely to go through menopause themselves earlier. There's some genetic thing that's influencing the interplay of factors. I think we know that there are certain lifestyles. There are certain behaviors, like certain behaviors in someone's life that can influence, I think, their symptoms. We know that smoking, obesity, having a more sedentary lifestyle can impact vasomotor symptoms. I think some really interesting research looks at the psychological influences here. We know that women who have higher levels of neuroticism, when they go through perimenopause, have more anxiety and mood changes associated with it. People who have higher levels of somatic anxiety, coming into this perimenopausal transition, can also have a tougher time. I think that makes sense when we think about someone with somatic anxiety. They're going to be very, very attuned to these small changes in their body. During perimenopause, there are these huge changes that are happening in your body. That can trigger, I think, a lot of anxiety and a focus on the symptoms.  I think with vasomotor symptoms specifically, like hot flashes and hot flashes specifically, night sweats, not quite as much, we know that there are these psychological characteristics that probably perpetuate and worsen hot flashes. When someone has a hot flash, it's certainly uncomfortable for most people. But the level of distress can be very different. They've looked at the cognitions that occur when people have hot flashes and at some point, people believe like, “Oh, this is very embarrassing, this is very shameful.” That doesn't help them process it. They might believe, “This is never going to go away. I can't cope with it.” That's also not going to help. I think that's really a target for cognitive behavioral therapy to help people during this time. Kimberley: It just makes me think too, as somebody who has friends going through this, and you can please correct me, what I've noticed is there's also a grief process that goes along with it too, like it's another flag in terms of being flown, in terms of I'm aging. I've also heard, but maybe you have more to say about people feeling like it makes them less feminine. Is that your experience too, or is that just my experience of what I've heard? Dr. Katie: No, I agree. I think in my clinical experience, people go through it in a lot of different ways. I think that there is this grief. I think it can bring out a lot of existential anxiety. It is a sign that you are getting older. This can bring up a lot of these questions like, who am I? What's my purpose? Where am I going? But I think it's really important to remind women that we're not defined by our reproductive functioning. I think that that's something that people forget. Were you less of a woman when you were 15 or when you were 10 maybe and you hadn't gone through puberty? You're still the same person. But I do think that there's a lot of cultural stress around this, and I think there are a lot of complexities around the way society sees aging women. I think that those are cultural issues that need to be fixed, but not necessarily a problem within the woman themselves. WHAT CAUSES MENOPAUSE AND ANXIETY SYMPTOMS?  Kimberley: That's really helpful to know and understand. Okay, let's talk about if I could get a little more understanding of this relationship with anxiety. Maybe you can be clearer with me so that I understand it. Is it more of what we're saying in terms of like, it's the chicken and the egg? Is that what you mean in terms of people who have anxiety tend to have more symptoms, but then those symptoms can create more anxiety and it's like a snowball? Or is that not true for everybody? Can you explain how that works? Dr. Katie: With regard to the perimenopausal period, what I think researchers are trying to figure out is, do vasomotor symptoms, like hot flashes, lead to anxiety and panic, or do anxiety and panic worsen the vasomotor symptoms? We don't have a lot of information there. Part of it is because it's difficult to study. Because when you're doing symptom checklists, there's a lot of overlap between a hot flash and a panic attack. It's just been difficult, I think, to suss out in research. I think what we do know is there was one study that showed that people who have higher levels of anxiety are five times more likely to report hot flashes than women with anxiety in the normal range. Whether or not the anxiety is necessarily causing it, I do think that there's probably some perpetuation of like, I think that the anxiety is perpetuating the hot flashes, which perpetuates the anxiety. We just don't know exactly where it starts.  MENOPAUSE & PANIC ATTACKS  But I mean, if we just think about it for a second, if we think about what's common between them, I think that both panic attacks and hot flashes have a quick onset. They have a spontaneous onset, a rapid peak, they can be provoked by anxiety, they can include changes in temperature, like feelings of heat and sweating. They can have these palpitations, they can have this shortness of breath, nausea. And then it's very common that panic is reported during hot flashes, and hot flashes can be reported during panic. I think there's this interplay that we're trying to figure out. I think what's interesting too is that common antidepressants can treat both panic and hot flashes, which is not something that probably everybody knows. There are probably different reasons that they're treating each of them, but it is still just this other place where there is this overlap.  Kimberley: Okay. That's really interesting. One thing that really strikes me is I actually have a medical condition called postural orthostatic tachycardic syndrome (POTS), and you get really dizzy. I'm an Anxiety Specialist, so I can be good at pulling apart what is what, but it is very hard. You have to really be mindful to know the difference in the moment because let's say I have this whoosh of dizziness. My mind immediately first says I'm having a panic attack, which makes you panic. I'm assuming someone with that whoosh of maybe a hot flash has that same thing where your amygdala, I'm guessing, is immediately going to be like, “Yeah, we're having a panic attack. This is where we're going.” That makes a lot of sense to me. Now, some people also have reported to me that their anxiety has made them-- and again we have to understand what causes what, and we don't understand it, but how does that spread into their daily life? What I've heard is people say, “I don't feel like I can leave the house because what if I have a hot flash, which creates then a panic attack,” or “It's embarrassing to have a hot flash. You sweat and your clothes are all wet and so forth.” Do you have a common example of how that also shows up for people?  Dr. Katie: Yeah. I think that what you were alluding to is this behavioral avoidance that can happen. We can see that with panic attacks where people sometimes develop agoraphobia, fear of being in certain places. Sometimes they don't want to leave their home. I think with hot flashes, we do also see this behavioral avoidance when people especially tend to find them very distressing. They catastrophize it when they happen. They worry about social shaming. That avoidance, I think, the way that we understand anxiety is that if you have an anxiety and then you change your behaviors as a result of that anxiety, that tends to perpetuate the anxiety. That's one of the targets of cognitive behavioral therapy for hot flashes, is really trying to unwind some of this behavioral avoidance. Also, we know that temperature changes can trigger hot flashes. Unfortunately, it looks like strong positive and strong negative emotion can trigger hot flashes, just feeling any end of the spectrum. There are certain other triggers that can trigger hot flashes. I think that it's just this discomfort and this fear of having a hot flash that I think really generalizes the anxiety during this time.  HORMONES, ANXIETY, & MENOPAUSE There's also this interesting hormonal component too that's being studied as well. We've talked a little bit about progesterone. But in reproductive psychiatry, we really focus on this metabolite of progesterone called allopregnanolone. I think this is interesting because allopregnanolone is a metabolite of progesterone. We know that progesterone is going like this, up and up and down during this time. Allopregnanolone works on this receptor that tends to have very calming effects. Other things that work at this receptor are benzodiazepines like Xanax and Ativan or alcohol. It has this calming effect. But when it's going like this, it's calming and then it's not, and then it's calming and then it's not, up and down rollercoaster. There's some thought that that specifically might contribute to anxiety during this time. It can be more generalized. It's not always just related to hot flashes, even though we've been more specific on that. It can be the same as anxiety at any point in anyone else's life, like ruminative thoughts, worry, intrusive thoughts, just this general discomfort. I think this is a really exciting area of research where we're looking at ways to modulate this pathway to help women cope better. There are studies looking at progesterone metabolites to see if they can be helpful with mood changes during this time. Kimberley: Interesting. Let's work through it. As a clinician, if someone presents with anxiety, what I would usually do is do an inventory of the behaviors that they do in effort to reduce or remove that anxiety or uncertainty that they feel. And then we practice purposely returning to those behaviors. Exposure and so forth. From what you understand, would you be doing the same with the hot flashes or is there a balance between, there will be sometimes where you will go in purposely or go out and live your life whether you have a hot flash or not? How do we balance that from a clinical standpoint? Even as a clinician, I'm curious to know. As a clinician, what would I encourage my client to do? Would it be like our normal response of, “Come on, let's just do it, let's face all of our fears,” or is there a bit of a balance here that we move towards? Dr. Katie: It's more of a balance. I think one of the important things is that what you want to do-- I think the focus is on the cognition here a little bit. I'm not familiar and I don't think that exposure to hot flashes is intentionally triggering hot flashes repeatedly, like sometimes we do in panic disorders is part of this. What I understand from the protocol is that it's really looking at the unhelpful cognitions that relate to menopause, aging, and vasomotor symptoms. This idea of like, everybody is looking at me when I'm having a hot flash, this is so shameful. Or maybe it goes further, like no one will like me anymore. Who knows exactly where it can go? We know that when people have cognitive distortions, it's not really based on rational thinking. I think other part is you work on monitoring and modifying hot flash triggers, so it feels more in your control like temperature changes and doing those things. I think other things that you do is there's some evidence for diaphragmatic breathing to help with the management of hot flashes. You teach someone those skills. I think your idea is you want to get them back out there and living their life despite the hot flashes, and also just education. This isn't going to last forever. Yes, this is uncomfortable, but everybody goes through this. This is a normal part of aging. Also encouraging them to seek treatment if they need it. In addition to therapy, we know that there are medications that can help with this. If the hot flashes are impacting their life in a significant way or very distressing to them, go see a reproductive psychiatrist or go see an OB-GYN who can talk to you about the different options to really treat what's coming up. Kimberley: Right. That's helpful. I want to quickly just add on to that with your advice. I think what you're saying is when we come from an anxiety treatment model, we are looking at exposure, but when it comes to someone who's going through this real life, like their actual symptoms aren't imagined, they're there, it's okay for them to modify to not be going to hot saunas and so forth that we know that they're going to be triggered, but just to do the things that get them back to their daily functioning, but it is still okay for them. I think what I'm trying to say is it's still okay for them to be doing some accommodation of the symptoms of perimenopause, but not accommodation of the anxiety. Is that where we draw the line? Dr. Katie: I think that's a really good way of explaining it. DEPRESSION AND MENOPAUSE Kimberley: All right. The other piece of this is as important, which is how depression impacted here. Can you share a little bit how mood changes can be impacted by perimenopause?  Dr. Katie: Definitely. We know that there's a significant increase in not only the onset of a new depression, but also recurrence of prior depressive episodes during perimenopause. It's probably related to the changing levels of hormones, but also, I think what we've alluded to and what we have to acknowledge is there are big life changes that are happening around this time as well. I think cultural views of aging, I think a lot of times people have changes in their relationships, their partners. Their libido can change. There's so many moving parts that they think that also contributes to it.  But specifically with regard to perimenopausal depression, we categorize this in the reproductive subtype of depression. At these different periods of hormonal transition, certain women are prone to have a depressive episode. We know that that's true during normal cycling. For example, premenstrual dysphoric disorder or PMDD is a reproductive subtype of depression. People sometimes get depressed in those two weeks before their period and then feel fine during the week of their period or the week after. During the luteal phase, they experience depression. We know that that group of women also is at increased risk for perinatal depression, so depression during pregnancy and postpartum. And then that same group is also at risk for perimenopausal depression. What we know is that a subset of women is probably sensitive to normal levels of changing hormones, and that for them, it triggers a depressive episode.  One of the biggest risk factors for depression during perimenopause is a prior history of depression. Unfortunately, the way depression works is that once you have it, you're more likely to have it in the future. For people who have had depression in their life or have specifically had depression around these times of hormonal transition, it's probably just important to keep an eye on how they're doing, make sure they have appropriate support, whether that's from a therapist or a psychiatrist, and monitor themselves closely. Kimberley: Okay. This is really helpful to know. We know that people with anxiety tend to have depression as well. Have you found those who've had previous depression or previous anxiety also have coexisting in terms of having those panic attacks and depression at the same time? Dr. Katie: That's interesting. I haven't read any research on that. It wouldn't surprise me. But I think at least for research purposes, they're separating it. I think clinically, of course, we can see it being all mixed together. But for research, it's depression or panic and they keep those separate. Kimberley: Right. One thing that just came to me in terms of just clarifying too is, I'm assuming a lot of people who have health anxiety are incredibly triggered during perimenopause as well, these symptoms that are unexplained but explained. But I'm wondering, is that also something that you commonly see in terms of they're having these symptoms and questioning whether it means something serious is happening? Has that been something that you see a lot of? Dr. Katie: Definitely. I think the first time someone has a hot flash, it can be extremely distressing. It's a very uncomfortable sensation. I think there are other changes that happen during perimenopause that, of course, I think, raise concern. We know that in addition to night sweats, people can just have general aches and pains. They can have headaches. Cognitive complaints can be very common during this time. Just this feeling of brain fog, not feeling as sharp as one used to be. They can have sleep disturbances, which can of course worsen the anxiety and the cognitive complaints, and the depression. I think there can be a myriad of symptoms. Other distressing symptoms, I'm not sure if they necessarily-- I think if you know what's going on, it's not quite as distressing, but there can be these urogenital symptoms, like vaginal dryness, vaginal burning. There can be recurrent UTIs, there can be difficulty with urination. There are this constellation of symptoms that I'm sure could trigger health anxiety in people, especially if they have preexisting health anxiety. WHAT TREATMENTS ARE AVAIALBLE TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM MENOPAUSE (OR PERIMENOPAUSE) AND ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION?  Kimberley: Yeah, absolutely. Someone's listened to this episode so they're at least informed, which is wonderful. They start to see enough evidence that this may be what is going on for them. What would be the steps following that? Is it something that you just go through and like a fever, you just ride it out kind of thing? Or are there medications or treatments? What would you suggest someone do in the order as they go through it? Dr. Katie: I think it depends on what's going on and how they're experiencing it. If this is distressing, life interfering, if they're having trouble functioning, they should absolutely seek treatment. I think there are a few different things they can do depending on what's going on. For depression and anxiety, medications are the first line. Antidepressants would still be the first-line therapy there. There's some evidence for menopausal hormone therapy, but there's not really enough. There is evidence for menopausal hormone therapy, but it's not currently first line for depression or anxiety. If someone had treatment-resistant depression that came up in the perimenopausal transition, I think it's reasonable to consider menopausal hormone therapy. But currently, menopausal hormone therapy isn't really recommended for that.  If someone is having distressing vasomotor symptoms with night sweats and recurrent hot flashes or hot flushes during the day, menopausal hormone therapy is a very good option. That is something to consider. They could go talk to their OB-GYN about it. Certain people will be candidates for it and other people might not. If you think it might be something you're interested in, I recommend going and speaking to your OB-GYN sooner rather than later.  Antidepressants themselves can also help with vasomotor symptoms as well. They can specifically help with hot flashes and night sweats. If someone has depression and anxiety and hot flashes and night sweats, antidepressant can be a really good choice because it can help with both of those. There was a really interesting study that compared Lexapro to menopausal hormone therapy for hot flashes, for quality of life, for sleep, and for depression. Essentially, both of them helped sleep quality of life in vasomotor symptoms, but only the Lexapro helped the depression. It really just depends on what's going on.  I think another thing that we've also talked about is therapy. This can be a big life transition. I think really no woman going through menopause is the same. Some people have toddlers. Some people have grown children who have just left their home. Some people are just starting their career. Some people are about to retire. Relationships can change. I think that it's really important to take what's going on in the context of a woman's life. I think therapy can be really helpful to help them process and understand what they're going through. Kimberley: Right. You had mentioned before, and I just wanted to touch on this, vaginal drying and stuff like that, which I'm sure, again, a reason for this series is just how much sexual intimacy and so forth can impact somebody's satisfaction in life or functioning or in relationships. Is that something that is also treatable with these different treatment models or is there a different treatment for that?  Dr. Katie: With menopausal hormone therapy, when someone has hot flashes or these other symptoms that we were talking about, not the urogenital ones, they need to take systemic menopausal hormone therapy. They basically need estrogen and progesterone to go throughout their body. When someone is just having these urogenital symptoms, they can often use topical vaginal estrogen. It's applied vaginally. That can be really helpful for those symptoms as well. I think if that's something that someone is struggling with that they want treatment for, it's very reasonable to go talk to their OB-GYN about it because there are therapies that can be-- Kimberley: Right, that's like a cream or lotion kind of thing.  Dr. Katie: Exactly.  Kimberley: Interesting. Oh wow. All right. That is so helpful. We've talked about the medical piece, the medication piece. A lot of people also I see on social media mostly talk about these more-- I don't want to use the word “natural” because I don't like that word “natural.” I don't even know what word I would use, but non-medical-- Dr. Katie: Like supplements or-- Kimberley: Yeah. I know it's different for everyone and everyone listening should please seek a doctor for medical advice, but is that something that you talk about with patients or do you stick more just to the things that have been researched? What are your thoughts? Dr. Katie: I think that supplements can be helpful for some people. I don't always find that they're as effective as medications. If someone is really struggling on a day-to-day basis, I do think that using treatments that have more evidence behind them is better. I think that there are some supplements that have a little bit of evidence, but I do think that they come with their own risks. Because supplements aren't regulated by the FDA and things like that, I don't typically recommend them. I think if someone is interested in finding a more naturopathic doctor who might be able to talk to them about those things is reasonable.  Kimberley: Super helpful. Is there anything that you feel like we haven't covered or that would be important for us to really drill home and make sure we point out here at the end before we finish up? Dr. Katie: I think we've covered a lot. I think that the most important thing that I really want to stress is this is a normal part of aging. This is not a disease; this is not a disease state. Also, there are treatments that can be so effective. You don't have to struggle in silence. It is not something shameful. There are clinicians who are trained, who are able to help if these symptoms are coming up. Just not being afraid to go and talk about it and go reach out for help. I think that that can be so helpful and really life-changing for some people when they get the right treatment. Kimberley: Right. Thank you. Where can we hear about you, get in touch with you, maybe seek out your services? Dr. Katie: You can find me online. I have a website. It's just www.drkatiemd.com. It's D-R-K-A-T-I-E-M-D.com. You can follow me on Instagram on the same. If you're interested to see more of my talks and lectures, I often post those on my LinkedIn page. You can follow me on LinkedIn. I think if you are personally interested in learning more about menopause, there's a really great book by an OB-GYN, her name is Dr. Jen Gunter, and it's called The Menopause Manifesto. For anybody who really wants to educate themselves about menopause and understand more about what's going on in their body and their treatments, I really recommend that book. Kimberley: Amazing. That's so good to have that resource as well. Thank you. I'm really, really honored. I know you're doing so many amazing things and running so many amazing programs. I'm so grateful for your time and your expertise on this. Dr. Katie: Of course. I'm so glad that you're doing a podcast on this. I think this is a topic that we really need more information and education out there. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you.

          Welcome to the Aphasia Access Aphasia Conversations Podcast. I'm Katie Strong and I'm a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources. I'm today's host for an episode that will feature Dr. Debra Meyerson and Steve Zuckerman. We'll be talking about their bike ride across the country, Stroke Across America, as well as the importance of identity and storytelling in a person's journey with aphasia. Before we get into the conversation, let me tell you a bit about our guests. Debra Meyerson was, until her stroke in 2010, a tenured professor of organizational behavior at Stanford University's School of Education.  Debra's most significant contribution from that period was Tempered Radicals:  How Everyday Leaders Inspire Change at Work (HBS Press, 2001). More recently, she authored  Identity Theft: Rediscovering Ourselves After Stroke (Andrews McMeel Publishing, 2019) and is co-founder and co-chair, with her husband Steve Zuckerman, of Stroke Onward, a nonprofit working to ensure stroke survivors and their supporters have the resources needed to rebuild identities and rewarding lives.    Steve Zuckerman is, along with Debra, co-founder and co-chair of Stroke Onward; he has been Debra's care partner since her stroke in 2010.  He has held leadership roles at Self-Help, a nationally recognized economic justice nonprofit, since 2006 and still serves part time as a Senior Advisor.  Before that, he was a managing director at a private equity firm.      In the summer of 2022, Debra and Steve led Stroke Across America – a 100-day cross country bike ride, from Oregon to Boston, to raise awareness for stroke, aphasia, and the importance of the emotional journey in recovery.   In this episode you will: be inspired learning about the bike ride, Stroke Across America, and its effort to raise awareness about the emotional journal of living with stroke and aphasia. learn about the power of story in reconstructing identity in people living with aphasia. become aware of Stroke Onward's mission to support the emotional journey of rebuilding identities and rewarding lives.   Katie: Welcome Debra and Steve. I'm so happy that you are here with me today. Debra: Thank you so much, Katie. Steve: It's great to be here. Katie: Well, I'm just so excited for our listeners to be able to hear about what you've got going on, and I'd love to start with what you were up to last summer. You did an amazing bike ride across the U.S. called Stroke Across America. Congratulations! I mean it was a big deal! Can you tell us about it? Debra: Sure. Stroke Across America was a bike ride across the US and Canada to raise awareness about stroke, brain injury and aphasia. We wanted to spotlight the emotional journey after stroke. How do we rebuild our identities and live meaningful lives? We rode 4,500 miles over 100 days, traveling from Oregon to Boston. There was a core team of six riders and others who joined us for portions of the ride. We became a family. I didn't expect that. Katie: That's fantastic. Tell me about who rode with you and became family. Steve: As Deb said, we had six core riders most of the way across the country. In addition to the two of us, a woman named Whitney Hardy, who's actually a close family friend. She's a young woman in her thirties who unfortunately suffered a traumatic brain injury about four years after she graduated from college and suffers no ongoing physical disabilities but has some cognitive issues and memory issues. She rode with us from the beginning to the end. Another stroke survivor was Michael Obel-Omia, who I know is an active participant in Aphasia Access. Michael is a stroke survivor who also lives with aphasia. He joined us about 15 days late because his son was graduating from college, so he joined us in Missoula, Montana. We had two wonderful summer interns, Emily and Alex. We met Emily through her grandfather, who was a stroke survivor and hoped to ride with us but didn't end up riding with us. Emily and Alex are both students at Washington University, St. Louis. They traded off, one rode and one worked, every other day. We can't say enough about the wonderful, not just competent and great work they did, but the energy they brought. They really helped make it special. I guess our seventh team member was our then roughly one-and-a-half-year-old golden doodle named Rusty who was along for the ride. Sometimes she rode in a trailer behind our bike and sometimes in one of the support vehicles. We had a group called Bike Eternity, a gentleman named Arlen Hall, who really arranged all the on-road logistics and the route. He and his team were just fabulous in terms of just making everything work. That was our family. Katie: It's quite a crew. Fantastic. I was wondering if you could tell us about a favorite experience from the ride. Debra: We hosted sixteen community events across the country. They brought together survivors, families, friends, stroke care professionals, and more. It was really inspiring to be with all these people. Building community and collaborating with others is the only path to real change. And you were at the Ann Arbor event? Katie: Absolutely. Yeah. My friend Becca and I came down to the Ann Arbor event. I think it was Dexter or something. Debra: Yeah Katie: Boy, did we show you how we can have rain in Michigan! Debra: I know. Oh, yeah. Katie: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it was great. Even though we had rain, there was so much great energy around the event. I can feel what you're talking about. Steve: I think the events were kind of really the most powerful experience. But Deb, you were going to talk about one particular ride you loved. Debra: I loved riding past Cameron Pass in Colorado for 30 miles up and 40 miles down. Katie: Wow! Steve: Yeah, so just to add a little bit to that, because I think that one day of riding really, I mean, every day was fantastic. We just loved the riding. But this one stood out for all of us. It was from a town called Walden in Colorado, a bit east of Fort Collins to a campground called Stove Prairie Landing. The pass we rode over was about 10,276 feet, so we were up there. And as Deb said, we rode up for 30 Miles about 2000 feet, but then got to come down 4000 feet. The whole ride was in a canyon with dramatic mountains and a river that we happened to catch at the right time of the year because the snow was melting. So, it was just a rushing river where we got the sound, the sights, and sometimes the spray of rapids as we're cruising downhill. And then there was just a perfect riverside campground at the end. It was just sort of a magical day. Katie: Yeah. As you were describing it, I wanted to use the word magical! So, I agree. Yeah. Fantastic. I'm sure it wasn't all easy street. I was wondering if you could tell us one of the hardest things about planning such a big activity. I mean, this was a big event. You had several events along the way, but you know, tell us a little bit about the planning. Debra: Organizing this event was so hard, but it was so important and so impactful. We had sixteen events: three events before we started riding in Palo Alto, Bend, and Portland, eleven along the way, and two in Boston after we finished. We had so much to do after the rides and after dinner, such as PR, social media, Stroke Onward, events, and a documentary film. There was so much to do! We are really tired. Steve: Yeah, I think the biking certainly was a lot, but we weren't trying to ride fast. You know, one thing I say about biking is, if you want to ride long distances, you just have to ride long distances. You get used to it. So, that didn't really feel like a strain for us. And the organizing of the route, particularly with the help of Arlen, kind of got done ahead of time. It was a lot of work, but he's a pro and we put it together. But it was really, I guess we're “Type As” who can't get out of our own way. We built so much into the trip that it really was those evenings and our theoretical “rest days,” which were nonriding days. We renamed them “stress days.” We felt like we had to get everything done. So, you know, that was the hardest part of the trip. It was just how much we packed in. We jokingly say, but it may not be a joke, “that someday we want to ride across the country where we have absolutely nothing to do but ride across the country.” That way, we can enjoy the evenings and the rest days, do a little more touristing, and spend time meeting people along the way. Katie: Yeah, it was very focused. You were very intentional about gaining awareness and supporting community. And I'm sure that it sounds like there was lots to do beyond just pedaling. You mentioned earlier about a campground, but I'm curious, where did you stay along the way? Steve: Our main support vehicle was an RV, pulling a trailer with a lot of gear. We organized mostly around staying in campgrounds. Partly to keep the cost down and partly because we didn't want to have to stay rooted to where the hotels and motels were. And so, Deb and I got the privilege of sleeping in the RV. It was a small RV, but very comfortable. And the rest of the group was camping, so we had tents and cots, and all you would need for relatively comfortable camping. About one or two nights a week, we would end up staying in a motel, partly just to give the folks who are camping a little bit of a break. We actually came to enjoy the RV so much; we almost preferred it to the hotels. Then, one of the real highlights of the trip was we were able to see a lot of friends going across the country. Particularly in the cities where we held events. We almost, with maybe one exception, always had a rest day connected to the event. Probably at about half of those we ended up staying with friends. That was really special to be able to involve more people in our lives in the journey. Katie: Yeah, I was thinking when you were in Ann Arbor. Deb, you had a number of colleagues and friends that came to the Dexter event. Debra: Yes, in Detroit, two days later, we met with my middle school buddies, Debbie and Debbie and Debbie. Katie: I love that, fantastic! That's great! Well, riding across the country is a huge endeavor. What made you decide to do it? Debra: Steve. Steve: Deb would say, “Steve made me decide to do it.” Well, actually, it is true. I had a close friend from college who rode across the country right after we graduated from college. From that day, I always said, “that's something I want to do”. As I got older and older and hadn't done it, it was kind of rising to the top of the proverbial bucket list. But cycling really has been a huge part of our recovery from Deb's stroke. It has been the best way that we can continue to do a lot of the things we love - exercise, adventuring, seeing new places, and spending time with friends. We had never ridden a tandem before Deb's stroke, we rode individual bikes. It was a bit of a challenge for Deb to give up control, understandably. But when we saw the opportunity to do it with a purpose, that's what kind of got us really excited. We were just starting to build Stroke Onward, we wanted to build awareness for the importance of the emotional journey, and events create good opportunities to attract attention. So, what better thing than to do something you've always wanted to do and do it with a purpose? That's kind of how we got going. Katie: Well, it is inspirational, and I know a big focus of the trip was to raise awareness about stroke and aphasia. Debra, for people who might not know, could you share a little bit about your life story. Debra: Of course. My life story started earlier. In 2010, I was a professor at Stanford. I studied, taught, and wrote about feminism, diversity, and identity. Then, I had a severe stroke. For three years, I did therapy almost full time. I had to get my old life back, but I couldn't. My disabilities, especially aphasia, forced me to leave my job at Stanford. Giving up tenure was like a second punch in the gut. It was a huge trauma on top of my stroke trauma that started my identity crisis. Who am I now? Katie: So, Debra, I think that's what sparked you writing a book called Identity Theft. Can you tell us a little more about that? Debra: I had written two books before my stroke. I decided to write another book after my stroke, Identity Theft. Writing Identity Theft became my learning journey. It has helped me rebuild my identity. It took me five years, and I learned to accept lots of help. No one told me rebuilding identity is so central to recovery. I learned firsthand that it's so important. While researching Identity Theft, I learned that other survivors think so too. They had no advice and support for this.  Steve: Maybe I'll add. Deb mentioned doing research for Identity Theft. From the very beginning when Deb decided to write a book, she didn't just want to write about her story. She was an academic, she wanted to bring in other people's points of view. And so, Deb interviewed twenty-five other survivors and probably another thirty-five people who were care partners, friends, families, and professional caregivers. Kind of the idea being that she wanted to be able to write about a diversity of people and stroke experiences because that would make the book more relatable and more accessible to more people. And that really kind of gets at one of the things that really struck me about Deb writing Identity Theft. In many ways, the writing of the book really reflected her personal journey. That at the beginning, she was kind of writing it to prove she could, she didn't want to let go of that identity as an academic. But very quickly, she realized that the process of writing it, as Deb said, was kind of her journey. She was able to turn her knowledge of identity and the lens on herself to really help rebuild her identity and her life. But along the way, she realized, “Man, there are so many other people out there who aren't being told about this and need resources.” I say this all the time, choosing to write a book when you have aphasia has got to be one of the bravest decisions because it puts you face to face with your frustrating disability every day. And there were a few times when Deb came downstairs and said, “I'm done,” “I'm not finishing the book,” “This is too frustrating,” and “I can't stand it”. But it was that knowledge that it could help other people that got her to push through that frustration. And that gets to kind of one of the big themes of our work, which is about finding purpose and having purpose and how that's often our biggest motivator in life, what we can give. So, that's kind of a little bit of the history of the book. Katie: I appreciate you sharing that. And as you were both talking, you were talking about this journey. And you know, thinking about the story and the writing and the rewriting of your identity. It really isn't about the product, not necessarily the book, which maybe initially that's what you were interested in Deb. But really, the journey is where all the work and the reintegration of who you are and who you're going to be is. very powerful. Very powerful. It's such a great read. I've enjoyed the book very much. So, you have even moved forward beyond a book, and you've started a nonprofit. It's been established for a little bit now. Can you tell us about your nonprofit, Stroke Onward? Debra: Yes. I created it three, no, four years ago? Our mission is to ensure stroke survivors and their supporters have those tools necessary to rebuild identities and rewarding lives. The vision is a stroke system of care that fully supports every survivor's emotional journey and recovery. Steve: Maybe I'll add. I think, clearly, the issues of critical care and helping people survive a stroke, and then all the work on rehabilitation is critical. What we saw is that a lot of people don't get all their capabilities back. It's almost like, well, if recovery means rehabilitation, then does that mean everybody who doesn't fully recover their capabilities, has a failed recovery? And we were just unwilling to accept that. Recovery had to mean more than just capabilities. That's why we decided to really focus on that next step in recovery, which is the emotional journey. So, we really think about our work around three areas. One is raising awareness, just that this whole issue of the emotional journey is really important and doesn't get enough attention. Even if people realize it's important and say, “Well, gosh, where can I get help with this?” There aren't enough resources out there. You know, at the end of the day, as Deb said, “it's about system change.” That we would hope that 10 years from now, a person who suffers a stroke and their family enters a system that not only provides good critical care and points them in the direction of good rehab, but also creates a framework and resources for this part of recovery, for the emotional journey. I won't go through all the actual things we do. Hopefully, you'll be able to post the website and people can go and see more about stroke onward, www.strokeonward.org, easy to remember. Katie: Absolutely.  Debra: And there's the book discussion guides. Steve: Yeah, well, one of the places in that the speech therapy community has been so supportive and such a wonderful partner is with the creation of our book discussion guides. Our colleague, Jodi Kravitz, led the creation so that the book can be more accessible. There's a guide, you know, with the idea being a group of people with aphasia can read the book together and have a facilitated discussion with a guide. But also, we created separate guides for families, speech therapists, and other health care workers. Just again, the whole idea of trying to make the material accessible, digestible, and useful for people who are going through what we went through, which was the identity crisis and having to rebuild our lives. Katie: Absolutely, we use the resources for our local book club here at Central Michigan University and our Lansing Area Aphasia Support Group. The materials were great, but the book just brought forth so much rich discussion. Debra: Yeah. Katie: You know, not all of it was easy to read. There is some tough stuff; you don't skirt the issues. I think it really was a very meaningful experience for our members and the students that were a part of the group to be able to hear the journey, to hear what maybe hadn't been addressed, to hear how people had moved forward with things, and the areas where we really do need to be thinking more about as healthcare providers. It is important that we can support the whole person and not just fix the physical or the language. It's a whole emotional journey that you're moving forward with, which in Stroke Onward is really important. Well, as you know, a lot of my work is about the importance of storytelling. Deb, I was wondering if you could talk about how storytelling impacts your work. Maybe even share a few stories from your work. Debra: Sure. Storytelling is so important. We are always changing, and our stories evolve over time. Storytelling helps us navigate the emotional journey after a stroke. And in my book, Identity Theft, I share my story and the stories of others so that survivors don't feel alone. I would like to share one story that helped me recognize that life could be good after my stroke. Seven months after my stroke, my friend Ann invited me to her 50th birthday weekend in Palm Springs with tennis, hiking, talking, and biking. I said, “No...no, no, no.” I would need so much help, and most of all, I could barely talk at all. Conversations would be loud and lively. I would feel frustrated, jealous, and sad. Kim, my friend, said she would help with everything. She said she would help me have fun. She was there for me. I was nervous, but I decided to give it a try. At first, I was determined to be the “old Deb” at the party, but the frustrations were constant. Conversations were too fast, and the friends trying to help did not give me time to find the words. I was frustrated constantly, but I decided to enjoy myself anyway. The night of the birthday party, I danced a lot! Great music, so fun. I was not the “old Deb” anymore, I was a newer version of myself. I could spend my time with my friends dancing, laughing, and enjoying what is essential in my life: friends, community, and fun. It is so hard, but it is so important. Pushing myself to be social and telling stories about it has been so important to my recovery. Katie: Thanks for sharing, it's a great story. And well, I mean, you sound like you have fabulous friends, but it sounds like Kim really was one that stuck around and was willing to help you through some of that change. Steve: And if I can add one other story, which kind of gets to how Deb reclaimed some of her old identity. In this case, her identity as a mom, and Deb tells the story in the book. When our daughter Sarah, who at the time of Deb's stroke was 15 and was not a big dater in high school. But about a year and a half after Deb's stroke, she got invited to the prom her senior year and she started going out with this guy. And I kind of said to Deb, you know, you never had that mother daughter talk with Sarah. And Deb hadn't been too active in parenting for that year, year and a half because she was you know, fighting for her recovery. I said, “You know, maybe you should be the one, as her mom, to have the talk.” And so, we kind of told Sarah that we wanted to talk to her. We were all standing around the island in the kitchen. Sarah kind of knew something was coming but didn't quite know what. And you know Deb's speech was nothing like as good as it is now back then. You could just see the concentration on her face trying to figure out what she was going to say. And she kind of slowly said, “Boyfriend? Yes. Pregnant, no!” And that has been dubbed by all of our friends for the world's most efficient and effective mother daughter talk. It was funny; we all just burst out laughing. It was really a great kind of wake up for us that Deb could reclaim a lot of aspects of her identity, but she would just have to live them out differently. And that just because they had to be different didn't mean she couldn't live them out. That was one of our favorites. Katie: That is a good story. What I love about your sharing of the stories and where your work brings storytelling to life. One of the things that's happening in the literature that's coming into practice, particularly in the UK, and over in Australia, and hopefully maybe over here in the U.S. sometime, is this idea of step psychological care for aphasia. We'll put something in the show notes if listeners want to check this out a little bit more. This idea consists of different tiers to support mental health and particularly depression in people with stroke and aphasia. At that bottom tier, which is supposed to be accessible to every stroke survivor, one of the level one interventions is storytelling. So, it's that powerful, you know. It's not just fun to tell stories; it's very important to who we are as people and integrating our mental and emotional health into who we are. Steve: Deb, did you want to mention somebody you interviewed for the book that particularly talked about storytelling? Debra: Yes. Randy enjoys storytelling, and he is a stroke survivor from St. Louis who I interviewed for the book. Randy and his wife, Rose, started their own aphasia meetup group. Social connections were really important to him. Steve: And he talked a lot about how he gradually got more and more comfortable telling his story and how much that helped him. He spoke at our community event in St. Louis, and I thought he kind of stole the show when he said, “My stroke changed my life, but it will not hold me back.” I just kind of well up because that's what it's all about. And he said it so eloquently. Katie: Powerful, powerful. Well, Debra, can you tell us a little more about this idea of identity? Debra: Sure. Barbara Shadden and you, Katie Strong, I am so thankful. Identity is our narrative about ourselves over time. We have not one static identity, we have multiple identities. We are always changing. Relationships like friends, family, colleagues, and others are a big part of making who we are. Identity is a choice. Instead of asking, “Who am I now?” ask “Who do I want to be now?”. Katie: Powerful. I like it. Debra, could you talk about aphasia specifically, and how that plays into your views on identity and your recovery? Debra: Yeah. Communication is so central to everything we do and to my identity. Having communication challenges just makes everything harder. Steve: And I'll just add that sometimes in recovery, the physical stuff, you know, trying to walk better or get use of a right arm back, would tend to be the focus. But in reality, the aphasia is really the thing that has challenged her identity the most because it was the communication that forced her from a career she worked so hard to achieve. Also, friends and interaction are so central to who Deb is, and that has just gotten so much more challenging. So, not to diminish the impact of physical disabilities, but aphasia is big and really central to the recovery process. Katie: And I think you know, you mentioned Barbara Shadden earlier, but you know her idea of identity theft. We are the stories that we tell and when we have trouble with the that one thing that we use for story, that tool of language that is impaired, or changed or broken, or, you know, smaller, or however we want to view it with having aphasia, it really makes a significant impact on how you view yourself and how you can connect with other people that are important to you. Debra: Yeah. I agree completely, and I am so lucky to have friends and family to support me. Steve: And I think what you said, Katie, is so powerful, and it's why we talk a lot about how few people really know and understand what aphasia is. I think that's because there's this, whatever the opposite of a virtual cycle is, it's the doom loop cycle of aphasia. Aphasia impacts people's identity so that they don't want to speak if they have aphasia because it's not consistent with who they think they are. But because people don't want to speak with aphasia, nobody knows what it is. And so that, you know, makes it that much harder to speak with aphasia. And I think, you know, that gets to this notion of purpose sometimes driving people through what's hard and what's uncomfortable. That was true for Deb and played a role in making a decision that “Yeah, I really wish I could speak the same way I used to.” We've had so many arguments about Deb saying, “I was terrible," because she was evaluating her speaking performance against the way she would have done it before her stroke. Yet, Deb's been willing to push through that, to be out there. You know, that's part of our work of trying to network with other people and encourage people to get out there and tell their stories because that's the only way the world is going to learn. Katie: And that you're doing, which is so appreciated and inspirational. Steve, I know your work is as much about supporting care partners and other family members as it is about supporting survivors. Can you share a bit about your journey through all of this? Steve: Oof, it feels like that could be a podcast in and of itself. But you know, I think maybe the nugget that I'll share is it's pretty obvious that people who are close to somebody who has a stroke or aphasia, our lives are going to change. Things we used to do; we can't do. Help we didn't used to have to provide, we do have to provide. I think the real “aha” for me personally, was that I needed to focus on my identity change as well. It wasn't just Deb's identity. And for me personally, and I've talked to a lot of care partners about this, really embracing “care partner” as part of my identity. Not just something I had to do to support Deb, but part of who I now am. This was really important to me because that mind shift actually helped me resent some of the changes in my life less. It was just, like Deb said, our identities change, our lives change, this is just another change. If I can embrace that as a change in who I am, then those just become part of life. Not that they're not frustrating sometimes, but it's a lot better. So I think, you know, Sarah, our daughter, is when you talk about the impact on family. And again, this story is in the book as well. But again, not just the impact on her life, but the impact on her and who she was. About two years after Deb's stroke, she gave a talk to her whole school community. Sarah talked about the experience of watching her mom have a stroke, and how she wanted to be like her mother and be strong and tough it out. People were offering to help, and she said “No.” She was going to soccer practice, she was doing all of her assignments, and she was visiting Deb in the hospital; she was going to tough it out because she wanted to be strong. Then, she started to see Deb accept more help and she started wondering, well, maybe I can accept some help. She started to let her friends in and let herself be vulnerable. She kind of realized that real strength isn't about toughing it out, real strength is about being vulnerable and using your relationships. Sarah's an athlete, and she ended the talk with, “Even the world's strongest person needs a spotter.” I well up just telling the story. When she told it, we went through boxes of tissues. But that changed her as a person in ways that actually, you know, maybe she would have gotten there eventually, but not when she was 17. I think that's what we talked to a lot of the families and care partners about. Allow yourself to think about how this experience can change you as a person and try to embrace some of that change where you can. Katie: Powerful. Debra: And the families, Danny, Adam, and Sarah. The families are affected. Katie: Yeah. Aphasia just doesn't happen to the person who has it. Well, Deb, you mentioned that there is one part in your book that sums up a lot of what you were trying to share with other survivors and their families. Maybe we can end with you reading from that paragraph. Deb: Faced with a trauma like stroke, the opportunities for both challenge and growth are great. We can clarify what we value most in life, set goals that will help us meet them, and achieve repeated small wins in pursuit of them. In this way, we can achieve not just recovery, but satisfying growth and fundamental meanings in our lives. Katie: I love it. Yeah. Challenge and adversity, thinking forward into the future, and having goals, purpose, and meaning. It's what life is about. Well, this has just been a fabulous conversation. Thank you both for taking time to share with us a little bit about what you've been up to over the summer and inspire us with some of your stories. Debra: Thank you. Steve: Thank you. Well, that wraps up this episode. Thank you for listening. For references and resources mentioned in today's show, please see our show notes. They're available on our website, www.aphasiaaccess.org. There you can also become a member of our organization, browse our growing library of materials, and find out about the Aphasia Access Academy. If you have an idea for a future podcast episode, email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. For Aphasia Access Conversations, I'm Katie Strong. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.   Information about Stroke Onward   https://strokeonward.org/  Stroke Onward website Instagram Facebook Twitter YouTube Identity Theft Book Club Materials developed by Jodi Kravitz, Ellen Bernstein-Ellis, Liz Hoover and Stroke Onward https://strokeonward.org/bookguides/   Resources Related to Identity and Aphasia   Meyerson, D., E., (2003). Tempered Radicals: How Everyday Leaders Inspire Change at Work. Boston, MA: Harvard Business School Press. Meyerson, D. & Zuckerman, D. (2019). Identity theft: Rediscovering Ourselves After Stroke. Andrews McMeel Publishing. www.identitytheftbook.org Shadden, B. (2005). Aphasia as identity theft: Theory and practice. Aphasiology, 19(3-5), 211-223. https://doi.org/10.1080/02687930444000697 Strong, K., & Shadden, B. (2020). The power of story in identity renegotiation: Clinical approaches to supporting persons living with aphasia. Perspectives of the ASHA Special Interest Groups. https://doi.org/10.1044/2019_PERSP-19-00145 Listen to Episode #5 of Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast featuring a conversation between Katie Strong and Barbara Shadden about the important role story has in supporting identity in people who are impacted by living with aphasia. https://aphasiaaccess.libsyn.com/insights-and-aha-moments-about-aphasia-care-with-professor-emeriti-barbara-shadden   Resources Related to Stepped Psychological Care Listen to Episode #34 of Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast featuring a conversation between Jerry Hoepner and Ian Kneebone about stepped psychological care and other research related to supporting the emotional journey of living with stroke and aphasia. https://aphasiaaccess.libsyn.com/34-in-conversation-with-ian-keebone Kneebone, I. I. (2016). A framework to support Cognitive Behavior Therapy for emotional disorder after stroke. Cognitive and Behavioral Practice, 23(1), 99-109. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cbpra.2015.02.001 Ryan, B., Worrall, L., Sekhon, J., Baker, C., Carragher, M., Bohan, J., Power, E., Rose, M., Simmons-Mackie, N., Togher, L., & Kneebone, I. (2020). Time to step up: A call for the speech pathology profession to utilise stepped psychological care for people with aphasia post stroke. In K. H. Meredith & G. N. Yeates (Eds.), Psychotherapy and aphasia: Interventions for emotional wellbeing and relationships (pp. 1-16). Routledge.    Acknowledgements – A special thank you to Amanda Zalucki and Emma Keilen from the Strong Story Lab at Central Michigan University for their assistance in the transcription of this episode. Cite as: Bertram, M., Isaksen, J., Toft, L. E., Olsen, A. M., & Breckling, M. (2021). Evaluering af projekt Forløb for borgere med afasi samt afrapportering af implementeringsopfølgningen KomTil – fra udvikling til drift. Unpublished report from University of Southern Denmark.

Welcome to the Aphasia Access Aphasia Conversations Podcast. I'm Katie Strong and I'm  a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources. I'm today's host for an episode that will feature Dr. Jytte Isaksen. We'll be talking about Making Communication about Healthcare Everyone's Responsibility: Communication Partner Training for Health Care Professionals Jytte Isaksen is an associate professor at the Department of Language and Communication, University of Southern Denmark in Odense, Denmark. She has a background as speech and language pathologist. Jytte lectures in the speech-language pathology and audiology programs in evidence-based practice, qualitative research methodologies, neurogenic communication disorders including aphasia, and other clinical subjects. Jytte's research is centred around communication with people with aphasia, for example communication partner training of health professionals, but she is also interested in outcome evaluation of aphasia therapy, involvement of people with aphasia in research, and supporting access and services for people with aphasia in low- and middle-income countries. A current research project of hers is about families living with aphasia and how to make sure that they get support throughout the care pathway. Jytte is a part of the international research group Collaboration of Aphasia Trialists, where she serves in the executive committee and as chair of the working group Societal Impact and Reintegration.     In this episode you will: Learn about the importance of trained healthcare providers who can communicate with people living with aphasia. Be introduced to the KomTil method of training developed in Denmark. Be inspired to consider how you might incorporate communication partner training with healthcare providers in your community. Katie: As we get started, I wondered if you could you tell our listeners exactly what is meant by communication partner training. And why is it so important for health care providers?   Jytte: Thank you so much, first of all, Katie and Aphasia Access for inviting me to talk about this topic that is very close to my heart. I think that conversation communication partner training, CPT, is defined in different ways in literature. But one of the definitions that I usually stick to is that CPT is an umbrella term that covers different types of complex interventions for communication partners of people with aphasia, and possibly the person with aphasia themselves. And why is it important to healthcare professionals? I would say it's important for everyone working with a person with aphasia because you need to be able to communicate with them. No matter if you are a nurse, or a physiotherapist, or anyone in the healthcare system. The secretary on the ward that needs to communicate with people with aphasia. You need to be able to express yourself in a way that people with aphasia better understand you, but also support them in their expression so that they can say what they really want to say, or some of it at least.   Katie: Absolutely. I completely agree. Being able to have conversations about your healthcare is just so important. So important. What role do speech-language pathologists play in the training of healthcare professionals?   Jytte: We play a very important role. I think it's a way of opening up participation in life, including in healthcare, for people with aphasia. Since we are the professionals especially trained in being able not just to treat, but hopefully also to communicate with people with aphasia, I think we as a profession are a good way into that. But I will later in this podcast talk about how other healthcare professionals can also be CPT providers. We have tried to do that in the project I will tell you about later today.   Katie: Yeah, that's so exciting. I'm really excited to talk about your work. I was wondering though if you could tell us how you got interested in the area of CPT.   Jytte: Yeah, that's a good question. Mainly because so many clinicians in Denmark were interested and still are interested in CPT. I think it was back in early 2000, some of my clinical colleagues went to the Aphasia Institute in Toronto, Canada and got trained by Aura Kagan and colleagues in the Supported Conversation for Aphasia, or the SCA program. They got back to Denmark, wrote a little bit about it, told a little bit about it, but it didn't really get that traction in the beginning. Maybe we weren't ready for that. I was more or less newly qualified at that time.   An evaluation of the Danish neurorehabilitation system was written up in 2011 and my now retired colleague, Lise Randrup Jensen from University of Copenhagen, was invited to evaluate and show the evidence around everything related to aphasia. What she enhanced in that evaluation was that there was moderate evidence that healthcare professionals trained to be better communication partners could have a different impact on people with aphasia's participation. That was picked up mainly at that time by one medical doctor. I should say, this is my interpretation of everything. That medical doctor or consultant in neuro, I think it was acute neurology, she said “I want to have this implemented in this hospital. So, no matter who is working with people with aphasia here should be trained to be better communication partners.” So, I think they are very brave. They employed a clinician that was already trained at the Aphasia Institute, and they employed Lise as a researcher on this part-time. Then they started to train all their staff to do research on it and then it really started to get some traction. They not only wrote at some point a research article, but they were also invited out into different health professional communities. They wrote in the nursing magazine, and the physio magazine, and so forth. All of a sudden, so many people around the country knew about SCA specifically, and went back to their SLP asking, “Can we be trained in this method?” And, somehow, I got interested. It was very natural that I picked it up together with Lise and then we started to do research together.   Katie: It's fantastic, the energy, it's such an the organic way that it came about. That seems really authentic and people being interested. All of the different disciplines. Showcasing and getting work out in interdisciplinary audiences is so important. Yeah, I love that story. Thanks for sharing. So, I'd like to get into a little more of the details. You've taken a lead role in training healthcare providers in Denmark, and I was hoping you could talk us through a little bit about how the training was developed and the philosophy behind your training.     Jytte: Yeah, as I mentioned previously, it was a lot of SCA going on, and there still is in Denmark. So many of us, Danish clinicians and researchers, have been to Toronto and gotten SCA training. But we got back with a material developed in a Canadian context with English speaking videos, and we had to do some adaption. But it was hard to know what could we change and still call it SCA. So, at some point, I was invited into a project at the local hospital in Espia, where I live on the west coast of Denmark. It was really a nurse at the acute ward there that also had read about SCA, and she went to one of the project people there saying, “I think we should be taught some kind of CPT.” And then it started.   So, our project man, he was very great at getting people together. Very funnily, he knew what SCA and CPT were because his daughter studied to be an SLP and wrote her master thesis about it. Lots of clinicians from that hospital, from the neurorehabilitation unit that the acute hospital usually would send their patients to, and then to the five surrounding municipalities that got the people with aphasia out where they lived afterwards. They got together, some researchers, me as an SLP researcher, and a colleague from public health. It wouldn't be right to say we were doing something new. So, we were standing on the shoulders of the giants, like Aura Kagan and Nina Simmons-Mackie, and other people that have worked before with CPT. We invited healthcare professionals from all stages throughout the care pathway, but definitely also people with aphasia and significant others. At first, we started with studying, “What is going on here? How do you communicate in this area of Denmark? How does the transfer happen between hospitals and from hospitals out into community care?” We got some ideas on what could be better. But then we again invited people in to do some co-design and co-development with us. So, that was how it all started. But you also asked about the philosophy, Katie.   Katie: That's alright. Well, before we get into that, I know many of them might, but I'm not sure if all of our listeners know what you mean by co-design.   Jytte: Yeah, I'm not sure that I know that either, Katie.   Katie: Well, how are you thinking of it?   Jytte: I claim I use co-design in many of the things I do. By that, I mean we invite all of the relevant stakeholders in. Well not all, but at least some of the relevant stakeholders for whatever we were going to develop. In this case, it was a CPT program, but it was also some support materials, and we developed a few other things I can talk about later. We have done workshops with them [stakeholders] asking them different questions, very open questions in the beginning. Our overarching goal from the beginning was not to create CPT, or communication partner training. It was to create cohesiveness throughout the healthcare system. It would be a good idea, we assumed, that all the way from when you were hospitalized until you finished your treatment out in your own home or in the community, that you would meet staff that knew what aphasia was, that knew how to communicate with aphasia, that used some of the same support materials. So, we asked them very openly, “How could that look? What is needed for that to be a reality?” We were quite sure from the beginning that some training had to take place. So, really, the CPT program called KomTil that we developed was a part of answering that more broad question.   Katie: Yeah, it's really a beautiful way to get something to work. I think that's why it's been so successful in your country, because you really brought it in from the ground up. People are truly interested, and then getting input from the health providers who are going to be using it, and the stakeholders, people with aphasia, family members. Thank you for sharing. I think that it's certainly something that's easier said than done, and you're showing us that it can be done, so thank you. So, did you want to remark on the philosophy?   Jytte: Yeah. So, I'm sitting here with the sheet in front of me. I think you will all be able to have a look at it and Katie will talk more about that later, where you can find it. But we have what we call our strategies and tools. There is a drawing, and it really looks like a dart board. There is a bullseye in the middle, and that is what is really most important to this training. It's also important for me to tell you that it has been people with aphasia and their family members that have told us what they found was most important. That strategy is called “person-to-person”. With that, we mean that in any kind of healthcare contact, it's important that both the person with aphasia, but also the healthcare professionals, remember that it's two humans really talking together. It's not about if you have aphasia or not, or if you are a nurse or not, it's about two people having to communicate. So, you need to try to work on creating a relationship. Be respectful to each other coming from different systems and with different points of view. The last point is to be honest about what you don't know or what you don't understand. When you don't understand what the person with aphasia is saying, instead of pretending, it's okay to say, “I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.” So, that's the bullseye of our figure.   The next circle around the bullseye is parted into two, and one is called “your court”, like you are part of the tennis court. Those are the strategies that you can do yourself without making too much effort. So, you could slow down your speech rate. You could have a natural tone of voice, knowing that you are speaking to an adult competent person. Emphasize key words in your oral speech. Have short sentences, yes-no questions, one question at a time. So, that simple communication advice that many of us are using with clients, but also advise other people to use with people with aphasia. Also take your responsibility in the communication because you know, or are being taught, in the CPT program that you really need to not control but be responsible for moving forward the conversation and providing support. Then the other half of that middle circle is “know your co-player”. So, know who is on the other side of the court. Try to think about, “Who is it that you are speaking with? How must it be to have aphasia and not be able to express yourself in the way that you would like to feel that you are competent and intelligent?” It's as Aura Kagan always says, “the aphasia is masking who you are, and your competencies”. Make sure that there is enough time for the person with aphasia to give their response if you ask a question, or if they want to formulate something. Also, make sure that you understand each other. Try to check if, “What I understood you said was this and that. Is that true?” or “What I tried to say before was this and that, are you with me?”   Then there is the outer ring, divided into four parts and we call them “strategies”. They may be extra. Some of them are quite natural in communication and some of them are not so much. One tool could be “pointing”, so be more intentional about when you point at your body, towards things, and at the person you're communicating with. The next one is also rather natural. Try to use “facial expressions, gestures, body language”, and be intentional about it. Like right now as we are talking Katie, my hands are everywhere but it doesn't mean anything. But I could use my hands to be more precise in underpinning what I'm saying, and the same with my facial expression. Then the last two tools are the ones that are a bit more unnatural. “Write down keywords”. So, have pen and paper ready and write the keywords in whatever you were talking about. We're talking about tools, Katie, then I would write down tools on this sheet of paper. You could also use keywords if you want people to point at different choices you give them. So, it can work as a support for what you say, but it can also be something you write down based on what the person with aphasia says to make sure, “Have I understood you right?” In the written keywords section, we also have drawings. So, we could draw to show something more visually. The last one is “pictures” or any kind of pictorial support. Especially the last two things, written keywords, drawings, and pictures, need some kind of preparation. You need to have pen and paper with you. You need to be willing to draw. Many people say to me, “But I don't draw, and people can't see what I'm drawing.” Also, the pictures. Either you need to prepare the conversation and have pictures with you, or have a tablet or a smartphone, or have physical pictures that you can point at and talk about. So that was a long explanation about the KomTil.   Katie: Beautiful. So, this KomTil graphic will be in the show notes. The reference will be there as well as the articles that Jytte's talking about, so please check them out. I think brings [these strategies] to an intentional and simplified way. It really makes it make sense, breaking those things up into different areas. Wow, fantastic.   Jytte: Can I add one thing, Katie?   Katie: Of course.   Jytte: The idea with this model was also like, “Could we start in the middle, and actually solve or bridge over some of the communication challenges between us and the person with aphasia by just really being present and trying to build a strong relationship?” Or maybe a little bit more is needed. Maybe I need to slow down and do a little instead of starting in the outer circle with drawing or pictures because maybe it's not needed. You should use it if it's needed. If not, no need to do it.   Katie: Yeah. That's so important. I was actually earlier this week having a conversation with our local aphasia support group. We were talking about how to talk with your health care providers, and I think they would agree that being treated like a person and having that relationship is really the place to start. Well, you all have not only developed this, but you also are training different healthcare providers, speech pathologists, or other disciplines on how to train other people on communication partner training. So, could you talk to us about what's important about consistency in this program? Also, how does somebody become a trainer?   Jytte: Yes. So as SCA, that also has a train-the-trainer model, we have made the same. Because it's really not good to develop something and then keep all the knowledge within that small group. We wanted KomTil to have its own life, so that people could get trained as trainers and then go out into their workplaces and train their colleagues. That would also mean that you would have KomTil trainers in many places with specific competencies that could underpin implementation, train new staff, do some refresher training. So, that was really the intention from the beginning. For this to be sustainable, we need a train-the-trainer model. This is then a little bit different compared to most other CPT programs. We have chosen together with the co-designers we had in the beginning that it was not only SLPs that could be KomTil trainers. Our very first group of KomTil trainers when we were still a research and development project was a good group of SLPs, but also OTs and PTs. We had a few nurses, we had a nursing assistant. I think that is almost what I'm most proud about, especially when I look at those trainers today. They got trained, I think it was back in 2018 we did that. Here where I live, the local hospital is just down the road. When I speak with that nursing assistant and nurse on the acute neuro ward and listen to them still doing the training, still inspiring their colleagues, I get inspired, and I get very proud as well.   Katie: What a beautiful thing. I mean, that's just oh wow!   Jytte: Yeah. Also, I guess it's different because in the beginning, it was very much assumed you had to know a lot about aphasia to be able to train CPT. But I think we have cut it down to a model. Yes, there is information about training, but what is really needed in order to be a good communication partner is not necessarily a lot of knowledge about aphasia. Many of them know something because they work with people with aphasia, but it's a lot about how best to communicate with people with aphasia, and then training in it. So, really just practice, practice, practice. We have continued using that model. At the moment, I'm training a group together with a colleague in Iceland online. I also train with another colleague, some Danish healthcare professionals, and again, not just SLPs. We have a nursing assistant, nurse, and special education teacher onboard in our current group. So, the model is like that.   You are also asking, “How can you become a KomTil trainer?” At the moment, we have been charging a little bit here in Denmark when we have trained people. The group in Iceland is my second group outside the country. My second online teaching experience and the first teaching experience was a very mixed group. I got contacted together with Suzanne Beeke, who works with CPT for family members, by the World Federation of Neurorehabilitation because some, not necessarily only SLPs, also medical doctors and neuropsychologists, were interested in receiving training. That was right ‘bang' in the middle of the pandemic, so we met with them sometimes online. Well, they're all over the world, so we had to do that anyway. Then we agreed to make an online KomTil training for them. Now there are KomTil trainers in Egypt, Colombia, Serbia, Austria, and Greece. That was a crazy experience, but very fun. Some of the countries have really started using this and have trained their colleagues.   Katie: Wow, what an impact. What an impact. So, how many hours is the training for the train-the-trainer? What kind of investment of time do they put in?   Jytte: So, when we do the face-to-face package here in in Denmark, it's four full training days. We usually see them once a week for four weeks and would usually prefer a two-week break in the middle because we would like them to go out and use the KomTil strategies and tools themselves as well. When we have been training online, it's not just the training, we're also talking to them about how best to take a tool from one cultural context and not just do a linguistic translation, but also do a cultural adaption. But you can't meet for four full days on Zoom, you would go bananas. So, what I do with the group from Iceland at the moment is meet with them five times spread over five months. We expect them to read more and be a bit more proactive in acquiring this program because we can't be face-to-face so many hours online.   Katie: I love that there's some adaptability in that. That's great.   Jytte: What they then learn when they become a trainer is to give what we call the basic training. The training package is developed for their colleagues then. It's a two times three hours training. Again with a two-week break in between so you can go out and do some practice from time one to time two. A part of the train-the-trainer program is also adult learning strategies, implementation, implementation science, and I think we change a little bit every time we do this. Because we are not there yet, and we probably will never be. But what we hear from our trainers is, “Oh, it's so hard to get out and implement this, we really need more knowledge than that.” So that's really what we are very much working on at the moment. To be a bit more sharp in how to talk about implementation and how to get some good strategies out to people that need to not just convince their managers to spend time, but also get the trained colleagues to use the strategies that we taught them. And not just for the first month, but for the rest of their working career with people with aphasia.   Katie: Absolutely. Well, this all just sounds fabulous. And it sounds like it's working. But how do we know for sure? Have there been any measures that have been developed for the training?   Jytte: Yeah, we did develop some measures. Not exactly as a part of this project because so many clinicians here in Denmark also use SCA. They still should do that, I think it's a great program as well. Together with Lise from University of Copenhagen, and Iben Christensen and students we developed the Health Professionals and Aphasia Questionnaire, HPAQ, and it has been tested. It's a 16-item, self-report questionnaire. It can be given pre-post training to the participants (i.e., the health care professionals). It's really measuring if they think that they have become better. “Do I know what to do when I don't understand a person with aphasia? Do I know what kind of support I have in the system? Do I know what to do when things go wrong?” But it is measuring it from one side. We still need outcome measures or tools to measure the exact conversation, but that could be an observation tool. Many of you know that Aura Kagan developed that for her SCA training. There's the Measure of Support in Conversation and Measure of Participation in Conversation.   Katie: Yeah, we can put those references and the HPAQ in the show notes too if people are interested in checking that out more.   Jytte: And then we need an outcome measure for people with aphasia. But of course, you can't measure that “you have been speaking with staff that was not trained, and then they went on training, and now they maybe speak with you in a different way” because people with aphasia would be hopefully long gone from that hospital or wherever the training took place. But it would be nice with an outcome measure measuring the communication accessibility and the level of support. The Aphasia Institute has done the different CAMS measures (the Communication Accessibility Measures in Stroke), I think it is.   Katie: I believe so too, yeah.   Jytte: There is a version for frontline staff, there is a manager's version and there's also a version for people with aphasia, but it's very lengthy. And it has not been developed for this purpose, so I think there's still a gap there to be filled out.   Katie: Yeah, but some great things in the works and the HPAQ currently available. Fantastic. Well, I know in some of our previous conversations that this original project had some grant funding, but I believe that's ended now. But the program is still running today, and as you've been talking about, it sounds like it's growing, which is amazing. Can you share how the project has been sustained?   Jytte: Yeah, I have already said a little bit about the nurse and the nursing assistant down the road. So, we have those KomTil trainers from the first group of trainers. We have the training course we are doing face-to-face at the moment in Denmark, it's our third one. Hopefully we will be able to offer those training courses in the future as well. I know I'll be giving one with a clinical colleague later this year. Here, I'm connected with University of Southern Denmark, and I teach future SLPs. They have an elective course in our master's program that they can choose. They get the train-the-trainer training if they choose that course. So, hopefully lots of clinicians will come out here. The first 25 came out last year, and I'll repeat it later this year in the fall.     Katie: Fantastic. Well, you talked about that this is really something that started in Denmark, but that has grown into a more global effort. I know you recently had a publication in 2022 in International Journal of Speech-Language Pathology (IJSLP) with some colleagues that aligns with the Sustainable Goal Development 17. Can you tell us a little bit about that? I'm not sure if I know all about that, and I'm not sure if our listeners do, but talk to us about the importance of that.   Jytte: Yeah. So, the Sustainable Developmental Goals 17 is about partnerships, especially partnerships between developed countries and developing countries. That was really the idea when we first got in touch with the World Federation of Neurorehabilitation. I forgot to mention India, actually, when I mentioned all those countries. It was India, Egypt, at that point, also a physician from Kazakhstan. So, different developing countries where the SLP services are not necessarily that good, and that are maybe even more dependent on other healthcare professionals knowing something about aphasia and being able to communicate with people with aphasia. Maybe there are not at all or very few SLPs at hand. So, that was really what the project was about at that point. Then we ended up sort of sticking the Sustainable Developmental Goals to the whole framework of the work we have done because it was a special issue (in IJSLP) on the UN Sustainable Developmental Goals.   Katie: Wow, that's just amazing. As I'm listening to all of the things that we've talked about today, really CPT training takes a community effort, right? It really seems like it takes a lot. I'm sure a lot of our listeners, and myself included, are thinking, “Wow, this is a really big effort. I'd love to see something like this happen in my own community, but it just seems so big.” Do you have any tips that you could share with clinicians or researchers who are listening who might be interested in starting something in their own facility or region?   Jytte: Yeah, I could say many things. First of all, I think I will say “just do it”. I mean, the whole story I have told here is that in Denmark, it has all been very grassroot-led. It was clinicians thinking this was interesting, let's go to Toronto. It was clinicians asking managers or their colleagues, “Why don't we teach you some strategies for you to be able to better communicate with people with aphasia?” And get some training. I know there's online training available, the Aphasia Institute. Get in touch with me maybe to see what we could do together. I think there are several people that could provide some training to you. Then go out, find your people that would advocate for this as well. Try to tell other healthcare professionals the consequences if we are not able to communicate well with our patients/clients with aphasia. There are so many devastating consequences, as many of you would know already. Also, when we just look separately at the healthcare system. Like we know that people with aphasia are communicated with less when they are hospitalized, they are at greater risk of different types of adverse events, they fall more. Maybe they take the wrong medication because they don't understand what we have taught them. They have longer hospital stays, they are at risk to get back into hospital again because of different things when they are discharged home. So many devastating consequences should talk to everyone really, no matter if you are a manager, or if you are the staff on the ground, that you should do this. I'm sure everyone would be a better healthcare professional if they have those strategies and tools in their working toolbox. It's not enough to be a great nurse, you also need to be a great nurse that can communicate with people with aphasia, in order to be a great nurse to that specific group of patients that you're serving.   Katie: Absolutely. Well, I love this! You're inspiring. And the “Just do it.” I hear your message also in that we need to get out of our offices and really go out and start collaborations with colleagues. Beautiful.   Jytte: And I know many people do that already. Value that, but also spread it more. I know of many people training ambulance drivers and all sorts of staff. I think this could go on at so many different levels of healthcare and community.   Katie: I agree. You've got my wheels turning too. I spoke last month to the Michigan Stroke Program, and they are primarily frontline providers and a lot of EMTs, and so it makes me think a little bit about that continuum of care. I love it. Well, as we wrap up, any final thoughts you'd like to share with our listeners?   Jytte: Oh, that's a good question. I have already said “go out and do it”. I'm sure that so many of you support communication with people with aphasia every day. So many of your colleagues are already watching you when you do it. So, try to be a bit more expressive about that and say, “This is what I usually do, could you maybe try to do this?” It doesn't need to be complicated. That's really what we have tried to build into this model that I have talked to you about today. Don't start with pictures and keywords if you think that is complicated and not natural for your communication style. We can get most people to ask yes-no questions, or sit down, have a quiet conversation, and be respectful and slow down the pace. As we have said many times when doing this training, this is not rocket science at all. Many of us are doing this but teach everyone you meet on your road when working with people with aphasia to try to do some of the same things.   Katie: Absolutely. Well, Jytte, it's been a fabulous conversation. Thanks so much for joining us today.   Jytte: Thank you, Katie. It has been so nice to be able to talk about this.   Katie: Lots of food for thought. So, listeners, check out the show notes. I'll have all the links to the articles and the KomTil visual that you'll really want to make sure you take a minute to download and some other things that we talked about during today's conversation.   On behalf of aphasia access, we thank you for listening to this episode of Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access, and to check out our growing library of materials, go to www.aphasiaaccess.org. And if you have an idea for a future podcast topic, email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.         Contact information for Jytte Isaksen – Email jisa@sdu.dk  Twitter @jytteisaksen   Resources Aphasia Institute - Supported Conversation Training – https://www.aphasia.ca/communication-tools-communicative-access-sca/ Aphasia Institute – Communication Access for Measures for Stroke (CAMS) https://cams.aphasia.ca/ Aphasia Institute- Measure of Skill in Conversation (MSC) and Measure of Participation in Conversation (MPC) https://www.aphasia.ca/health-care-providers/resources-and-tools/rating-scales/ Bertram, M., Isaksen, J., Toft, L. E., Olsen, A. M., & Breckling, M. (2021). Evaluering af projekt Forløb for borgere med afasi samt afrapportering af implementeringsopfølgningen KomTil – fra udvikling til drift. Unpublished report from University of Southern Denmark. Cruice, M. Johansson, M. C., Isaksen, J., & Horton, S. (2018). Reporting interventions in communication partner training: A critical review and narrative synthesis of the literature. Aphasiology, 32(10), 1135-1166.  https://doi.org/10.1080/02687038.2018.1482406 Isaksen, J., Beeke, S., Pais, A., Efstratiadou, E-A., Pauranik, A., Revkin, S. K., Vandana, V. P., Valencia, F., Vuksanovic, J., & Jagoe, C. (2022). Communication partner training for healthcare workers engaging with people with aphasia: Enacting Sustainable Development Goal 17 in Austria, Egypt, Greece, India, and Serbia. International Journal of Speech-Language Pathology. https://doi.org/10.1080/17549507.2022.2145355 Kagan, A. (1998). Supported conversation for adults with aphasia: Methods and resources for training conversation partners. Aphasiology, 12(9), 816-830. https://doi.org/10.1080/02687039808249575 Kagan, A., Black, S. E., Duchan, J. F., Simmons-Mackie, N., & Square, P. (2001). Training Volunteers as Conversation Partners Using "Supported Conversation for Adults With Aphasia" (SCA): A controlled trial. Journal of Speech-Language-Hearing Research, 44(3), 624-638. https://doi.org/10.1044/1092-4388(2001/051) Kagan, A., Simmons-Mackie, N., & Shumway, E. (2018). Revised rating anchors and scoring procedures for Measure of Skill and Measure of Participation in Conversation between adults with aphasia and their conversation partners. Toronto, ON: Aphasia Institute. Retrieved from https://www.aphasia.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/VF-MSC-MPC.pdf Kagan, A., Simmons-Mackie, N., Victor, C. J., & Chan, M. T. (2017). Communicative Access Measures for Stroke: Development and evaluation of a quality improvement tool. Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, 98(11), 2228-2236.e5. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.apmr.2017.04.017 Randrup Jensen, L., Fromsejer Heiberg, R., Isaksen, J., Berg-Beckhoff, G. (2021). Psychometric properties of the Health Professionals and Aphasia Questionnaire (HPAQ): a new self-assessment tool for evaluating health communication with people with aphasia. Aphasiology, https://doi.org/10.1080/02687038.2021.1900534 Simmons-Mackie, N., Raymer, A., Armstrong, E., Holland, A., & Cherney, L. (2010). Communication partner training in aphasia: A systematic review. Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, 91, 1814-1837. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.apmr.2010.08.026 Simmons-Mackie, N., Raymer, A., Cheney, L. (2016). Communication Partner Training in Aphasia: An Updated Systematic Review. Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.apmr.2016.03.023       Acknowledgements – A special thank you to Serena Chase from the Strong Story Lab at Central Michigan University for her assistance in the transcription of this episode.       Please note: Be sure to scroll down to the next page to find the KomTil visual and citation.   

Today we have a longer bonus episode where I chat with Julie DeLucca-Collins, and it is so inspiring.  She is an example of someone who lives in her core value of breathing confidence into women when they can't always see it for themselves and it is magic.     Transcript:  Katie: Welcome to Everyday Happiness where we create lasting happiness in about two minutes a day through my signature method of intentional margins, (creating harmony between your to-dos and  your priorities), happiness, science and musings about life. I'm your host, Katie Jefcoat, and today this is a bonus episode because I get to chat with my dear friend, Julie DeLucca Collins. She's a business and life strategy coach and she's certified in tiny habits.  And I know you are going to love what we're going to talk about today and you are going to love what she's going to share with you over the next five days because it's all about happiness habits. Julie, welcome to Everyday Happiness. Julie: Thank you Katie Jefcoat. Thank you so much for having me. I love that I'm on your podcast. This is my regular weekly, daily rotation. So thrilled. Oh, my God, it's going to be weird. I'm going to have to hear myself in your podcast. Katie: It's going to be amazing and it's going to be so much fun. I'm so glad that you are here. You have always been one of my biggest fans and biggest cheerleaders in getting this message out to people that could use a little boost in their happiness. Julie: Absolutely. And by the way, I was telling somebody earlier this week, I said, you know, one of the gifts of the Pandemic is Katie Jefcoat, because she's one of the first people I met through the pandemic. And if you're not looking at the pandemic as the thing that gave you a gift, go back and rather than looking at it as a white wall, go and find all of the gifts that came from that and you're definitely one of them for me. Katie: Oh, my gosh, I love that so much. And the feeling is absolutely mutual. So if you can remember, tell our listeners a little bit about how we met because it's not in real life. Julie: It's not in real life. Even though you live in an area where I lived, I lived in the DMV area and I love it. And if I had to move out of Connecticut and it wouldn't be New York, it would be that area. But we met through a mutual friend, Keatha, and she is an incredible podcaster and weight loss coach doing some wonderful, wonderful things in the world. But when I launched my podcast Casa DeConfidence during the pandemic, she said, you have to have my friend Katie on the show. And I said, yes, absolutely. And we got on the phone and the first thing you said to me is, what is lighting your hair on fire? And I'm like, what? Oh, my God, I don't even know what to say to that. And I loved it. And I said, this is my person. This is someone that I love because this is just something that is unusual. It will always make me remember her. But it's true. Something has got to be lighting your hair on fire. And that's a great way to get to know someone. I loved our first conversation, and I invited you to the Casa DeConfidence show and you taught me about Intentional Margins®, which, by the way, I use that a lot when I'm talking to my clients and I'll say “Katie Jefcoat says you must create Intentional Margins®”. And, yeah, we've just been collaborating. I joined your community and you have been one of these people that we come alongside of each other, doing life as business besties and doing the work. And anytime that I have a question or a thought, I know that I can always pick up the phone and say, hey, Katie, what do you think of this? Or you'll catch up with me and catch me up. What are you working on? And we really bounce things off of each other. And if you want happiness in the world, I think that you really need to surround yourself with the people that make you better, that grow you, that are aligned with your values. And ultimately, the African proverb I've been saying this a lot, but the African proverb that says “if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together”. And this -- you are one of those people that I'm going far with. So I love it. Katie: Oh, my gosh, I love that too.I love it so much. I love cheering on other people that are doing things that they are passionate about and you have the exact same philosophy. So just meeting was so much fun. And then we've really been steadfast in our connection and walking this path together. So, it lights my hair on fire just to have you in my life. It's so much fun. And we get to test all the things that are going on and be like, does this sound right?Can I have a gut check?  Julie:  Yeah, for sure. And I think that you need that in life and if you don't have it, start to be open to the idea and also be open to meeting new people and it's going to be a little uncomfortable. When you first get on a phone call with someone you don't know, but ask a friend, hey, if you're very cool, who else do you know that's very cool and who can I connect with? And connection is so important. Katie: Oh, my gosh, I cannot agree more. First, behavioral contagion, right? We really do mimic the behaviors of others, so if we're all elevating, that always helps. And social connection is one of the keystones to happiness. Oh, my gosh, all the things I love so much. So if you could share with me a little bit about you, where you started, what you're up to, what's going on in your world, because it feels like it's all the magic. Julie: Well, if anybody checks me up online, the first thing they'll probably see is that I'm a business and life strategy coach. But I didn't start here. I started out as a teacher and then I moved to work in corporate America, still in education, and I grew through the ranks of a company, a national company, in education. And I loved it and they gave me some great opportunities and they had a philosophy of building their team from within and they really invested in training and growing individuals to grow into the seats of their executives. And I was so fortunate to be there. I learned a lot when it came to starting a new business line. I came in as a little corporate coordinator for one of the VPs and eventually I took over. He didn't leave the company, but I took over that job. I was the VP or Executive Director first for the partnerships that we did with school districts nationwide. But the great thing about this company is that they taught all of us and their executives about marketing, they taught us about operations, development, how to be able to be a very well rounded individual growing a business. And I loved it. And then I got to take that experience into another company where I ended my career. I was there for twelve years. My last role was Chief Innovation Officer for the company and I oversaw all of the contracting and work that we did with school districts nationwide as well. I helped to expand the company out of New York into Texas, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, and we continue to do work and expand the support systems that we created for school districts, for students, for teachers and administrators. And I loved it. But there was one piece for me that I always felt really called and passionate about. Although education is definitely something that I'm passionate about, helping kids and families was great and I love supporting teachers because I had been in that seat. I also knew that I wanted to help women because as I climbed the corporate ladder, I started to see that there weren't a lot of women, the higher you got, number one. Number two, if they were, and I talk about this in my book because I wrote a book through the pandemic, and that was one of the gifts of the pandemic again from me. Not every woman has been trained or is open to the idea of being supportive. So I wanted to create and listen. I'm guilty. I think that in the very beginning I wasn't as supportive and loving and kind and mentoring as I should have been as an executive. And that's one of the things that I started to do is I started to realize that I wanted to rectify, that I wanted to create an environment in which I help other women build the confidence that they needed either to grow their careers or to become a better version of themselves or to start a business. And many women who are starting businesses don't know where to start, what to do, first, second or third. And when I was laid off through the pandemic, another one of my gifts the pandemic gave me, I knew exactly this is what I was going to do. I was going to start my own business, and I was going to do the type of work that supported women specifically to become more confident in their life and business and become the CEO of their life and business. I wanted to be able to breathe the belief into them, that somebody and so many other women have done for me, have given me that ability to grow, be a better version of myself, and become successful at achieving my dreams. So Go Confidently Services was born out of that. And I launched the podcast Casa DeConfidence, and that was something that my husband sort of put on my plate. He said, hey, you're going to start a podcast. And I was like, Why? He's like, Because you're not having a birthday party. We're in a pandemic. And I was having a big birthday. And I'm like, what? What do you mean? And that kind of put my energy out of planning or being in that slump of not doing the things that I thought I was going to be doing all of a sudden just growing and creating a platform where people like yourself can come in and talk about what is your journey to confidence. Because I think that in a world where social media rules, we see everybody's high points and we are not seeing that. You know, we don't always have it together. And that was one thing that people would say, you're too confident. Look at you growing, getting a promotion, doing great things. But I don't always have it together. And the thing that helps me show up and have it together when I don't feel like it is habits, and that's what I fall back on. Katie: Oh, my gosh, I love this so, so much. I cannot wait to get into your five episodes on happiness habits. It's going to be magic. You also are really an example of breathing life into people and really helping them secure a vision and clarity around how to grow a business, if that's what they want, or how to manage life. You know, you have workshops that you do every so often where you can really dive in with other individuals. Usually there's some offer on Zoom, so I encourage listening to make you follow Julie DeLucca-Collins so that when she does offer something again, you'll know about it. So until next time, you're going to hear from Julie. Remember, kindness is contagious. P.S.  If you are interested in a habits challenge, Julie is starting a free 5-day challenge on Monday February 20th. You get expert coaching from a Tiny Habits Certified coach and a community to help cheer you on and support you with the right accountability.  Register Here for all the details    About Julie:  Julie DeLucca-Collins is the Founder and CEO of Go Confidently Services, the host of the popular Casa DeConfidence Podcast®, and her weekly Radio Show Confident You featured on a global talk radio network. As a Business and Life Strategist Coach, Julie helps women business owners launch or grow their businesses, get clients, be productive, and achieve their dreams. Julie helps her clients create simple habits to achieve goals and change their lives. Julie is also the #1 best-selling author of the book Confident You (simple habits to live the life you've imagined). Julie is a sought-after public speaker, trainer, and course creator. She is certified as a coach in Cognitive Behavioral Techniques, Holistic Coach, and Tiny Habits. She is also certified as a Social Emotional Learning Facilitator and has completed her 200-hour Yoga Teacher Certification. Julie enjoys helping her clients build mental fitness and improve their mindset to beat peace and improve peak performance. Julie has been honored with the "25 Most Powerful Minority Women in Business Award." by the Minority Enterprise Executive Council in Washington, DC. Julie and her Podcast co-host/producer husband Dan reside in Vernon, CT, with their fur babies, Yogi Bear, Junior, and Simba.   Social Media Links: https://www.instagram.com/julie_deluccacollins/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/goconfidentlyjulie/ https://www.facebook.com/jdelucca https://www.pinterest.com/juliedelco/ https://www.tiktok.com/@juliedcbusinesscoach Get Everyday Happiness delivered to your inbox by subscribing at: https://www.katiejefcoat.com/happiness And, let's connect on social at @everydayhappinesswithkatie  and join the community on the hashtags #IntentionalMargins and #everydayhappinesswithkatie on Instagram Links:  https://onamission.bio/everydayhappiness/

Transcript Katie: Welcome to Everyday Happiness, where we create lasting happiness in about 2 minutes a day through my signature method of Intentional Margins®, (creating harmony between your to dos and your priorities),  happiness, science, and musings about life. I am kind of dying today on the inside because I get to chat with one of my friends, Angela Germano. She is a 6th grade teacher. She teaches English. I mean, can we just bless her for a moment? Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine 6th grade English. I just feel like smelly boys and girls passing notes. But anyway, she loves it and she does a really good job at it. She's also an author. And really, she just reminds me that when you show up, just show up big and live life to the fullest. And it's just so amazing when you get to surround yourself with the most incredible people. I'm so excited that you get a chance to get to know my friend Angela. Welcome to the show. Angela: Well, thank you so much for having me. This is super cool. Thank you. Katie: I am literally crawling out of my skin. I'm so excited to chat with you. So first off, why don't you start by telling the listeners if you remember how we met because it's kind of an interesting story. Angela: Oh my gosh, yes. Lots of dreams were coming true when I met you. Oh my goodness. It all started when I went to an event, precovid, right? So this was, I guess about three years ago now, and the event was called Dare to Dream. It was a beautiful, beautiful event put on by the amazing Kate Butler. And she had this event for all of her authors in her book series. New authors and authors that had been in a few books came together to celebrate ourselves and celebrate all of these new dreams. Hence the title Dare to Dream. And it was there that I met the beautiful Katie Jefcoat. Sparkled when you came in. That laugh. It's awesome. I fell in love.  Katie: It was really magical. And I can't remember exactly how your nickname happened, but it had something to do with thinking of the first thing that comes to mind, maybe, do you remember how it happened? Because I remember your nickname, I just don't remember how it happened.  Okay, tell me how it happened, because this was the most funny story. Angela:  Yeah, it was like, what word can best describe you? And everyone's going around the room, and I mean, the room is large. I would say we have what, like over 100 people there. Well over 100 or 200 people, probably. So you're going around and it's like, okay, what word best describes you? And of course, after you get through the first ten people, you get a lot of repeats and I didn't want to be repeated, competitive. And I'm a very unique person. I'm like, what could I possibly say that describes me? And it's getting closer and closer, and I had my word. I feel like it stuck because it works. And the word was can I say the word? Katie: Yes, please. Angela:  We say my nickname is not even my nickname, but it's so cool that everybody from that event refers to me, and it's beautiful. So, anyway, popcorn. Popcorn. That's what I think of with me, because not only do I have a very, like, popping kind of personality, but I really do live my life in the sense that, you know, I lost my mom when I was really young, and I know she wanted to live a lot longer. She was only in her thirties, and she always talked about getting to live longer, and unfortunately, she lost her battle, and we lost her early on. So I said, you know what? I'm living for my mom. That's what I'm doing. I want to give her a really good show while she's up there in heaven. I want to live out all those dreams that she had, maybe she told me about, but I want to do it all. So grab the popcorn and have a good time as you watch me go through life because I'm popping. Katie:  You know, I think about that analogy a lot, and I think about popcorn, as in, this is the show, indulge. Just be in it, just enjoy all of it. And then I think of popcorn as, like, kernels popping, and I think both kinds of analogies are very similar because you're like, oh, that's a great project. That's a great idea. That's a great charity, that's a great kid. Oh, let's make a sign for this. Let's do this and let's do that. And you're always popping all these ideas, all of this brilliance, all of this magic all the time, and so it's such an interesting way that word came to you, and it was absolutely perfect, and it completely sums you up 100%. Angela: Oh, my gosh, I love that. I'm so happy this is recorded because I'm going to listen to it whenever I'm having a down moment. That was just so beautiful. Thank you. Katie:  Oh, my gosh, so good. So tell us all the things that you're doing.  All the kernels that you're popping, because we already talked about you being an educator and an author and showing up for life. But you have a lot of interests and you have a lot of things that make you happy and you're really intentional about leaning in to the things that bring you the most happiness. So even today, you are doing something that was really fun and exciting and you have all of these things. Tell the listeners, all of the fun things so they can live vicariously through you and just get a sense of what this feels like to live fully. Angela: Oh my gosh, thanks. Well, much like popcorn, right? There's so much developing. When I was in college, I went for communication. And I love to chat, I love to meet people, I love to study people. I love the art of people, right? So I had this awesome opportunity to be an intern in Washington, DC. And I was able to not only intern in public relations, which was my background, but also I got to take some law classes. I was really into constitutional law and very passionate about social injustices. I loved learning about that. Fast forward now into the world that we're in. I'm constantly, always trying to help people, no matter who they are, where they're from. I just love helping people just to help them. And I think that's why I love being an educator. And sometimes people say, oh, you're a teacher, you're in the classroom. But my life does not stop there. That is just where it begins. Some really great news that just happened yesterday. And then of course, I was doing more fun stuff today, but yesterday I found out that three of the grants that I had written were approved. So I put in these multigrand grants so that my middle school students could have extra supplies to go after different passions. So there are three different projects. One is a selfie celebration, which it's all about celebrating these beautiful 6th graders. They come after school with their families. We have desserts, we roll out the red carpet, we make vision boards, we're doing yoga, we're doing meditation. We have gratitude journals and exercises that we do. It is phenomenal for the students and then the parents. You know, I teach 6th grade, so it's a transitional year in our school. It's their first year of middle school. These parents need support. So a beautiful thing happens not only for the children, but the parents are all gathered there as well celebrating their children, but also start to bond with this new support system of their parents. It's fantastic. And I did it before. It was always a success, but every year you wonder, am I going to get that grant money again? And I did. So I'm completely stoked and very, very grateful that the Toms River, which is the town where we live, the Toms River Education Association, which is part of New Jersey Education Association, approved that grant. So now we get to have a selfie celebration. The kids love it.  And then the second grant that was approved is called Language Arts for a Cause. And this again, celebrating ourselves. This is all about English class. Sometimes teachers tell you what to read. That's not how I roll in my class. I'm very big on student voice and student choice. And in Language Arts for a Cause, the students can research anything they want to and then they take the power that's within them. So whatever skills, strategies, whatever craft they want to make in order to promote the cause, perhaps they're really good artists and they want to make some art and then sell the art and then the money can go towards that cause. So language arts for a cause. It's amazing. The parents come in and they learn all about these different causes that are near and dear to the students, which is a big deal because sometimes parents, we're doing our own thing and sometimes we forget to make time for our children and listen to what is really important to them. So a beautiful thing that happens during this event is the parents can actually see what's important to their child and also to their friend group, and they start to see things through their eyes, the shared perspective. So it's beautiful all around. And so I was really happy, really happy that Language Arts for a Cause got approved. That's a big one for me because it's kind of like our little entrepreneurs, they're building their nonprofit businesses and combining their smarts with their heart and getting the word out there, back to communication again. So I love that. And then the third one, this is a family book club. And that's kind of what we were just chatting about before we came on live, a family book club. It's for social, emotional needs. So the students select books that they want to read that are important to them. Usually they're nonfiction and we get enough copies for them and their family to read together and have some really important conversations that are eye opening, that are supportive, that their family needs. Sometimes the students are looking out for themselves. Sometimes they're looking out for their family and trying to find books that they want mom and dad or their grandma to read with them for a reason. So we kind of gave them an outlet to bond with their family. So I was really excited that those three grants got approved. And it brings it all together, what I do in the classroom and what I did when I was in college. And as a communication expert, it brings it all together. So very, very fortunate that some of my things were popping yesterday. And then today we were reading to the YMCA program at our local elementary school. I took my book club of middle schoolers and we went to the elementary school children and they had a blast. Katie:  Oh, my gosh, I bet they had so much fun. love it so much. And I can't wait for you to dive in all week long and talk with the listeners about all of your goodness. Because let me just tell you, friends, it is just getting started. Angela is coming in hot, hot, hot. And there's so much goodness for you to learn. So all of her links and all of the fun stuff she does will, of course, be in the show notes and you'll be able to follow her and really see what's happening.  But until next time, remember, kindness is contagious. And Angela is taking over!       About Angela:  Angela Germano is currently an award-winning middle school Language Arts teacher, Communication professor, multi-faceted professional writer in the global medical and self-care sectors and produces inspirational documentaries. In these roles, Mrs. Germano coaches people through their academic, career and life challenges and is devoted to positively impacting people's lives so they can achieve their dreams.  She is a #1 International Best-Selling and Award-Winning Author in the Inspired Impact Book Series including Women Who Rise, Women Who Illuminate and Leading with Legacy. Mrs. Germano has been featured in The Jersey Storytellers Project, part of The USA Today Network. She has also been a guest on educational, lifestyle and mental health programming such as Everybody with Angela Williamson on PBS, Aggressive Optimism with Jenna Edwards, LaDolce Vita with Virginia Rose and others. Mrs. Germano has served on the Monmouth University Board of Directors and Chair of the Nominating Committee. She is involved with multiple charities such as Ronald McDonald House, American Cancer Society, and UNICEF.  She is noted as having a true teaching talent; putting students at ease, increasing their confidence and allowing them to learn for the long term.  She focuses on embracing teaching as an opportunity to inspire leadership, giving voice and choice to students through knowledge, exemplars, and opportunity. As an Inspirational Speaker highlighting the specific topics of overcoming adversity, building confidence and leadership, Mrs. Germano also coordinates Selfie Celebrations where children practice positive self-worth activities such as yoga, meditation, positive affirmations, goal setting and vision boards. Mrs. Germano earned a Masters in Public and Corporate Communications from Monmouth University, Magna Cum Laude and is currently pursuing a Doctor of Philosophy in General Psychology: Integrating Technology, Learning, and Psychology. Mrs. Germano's long-term research interests include studying the learning of students in middle school as a consequence to a specific way of goal setting, where they have buy-in and more ownership of setting their own goals, monitoring and readjusting them, and then understanding how self-produced goals impact learners' engagement, focus, scores, comfortability, confidence and control levels. To further these research interests Mrs. Germano intends to use quantitative methods to understand perspectives and experiences of learners to increase long-term learning, success and happiness. Mrs. Germano's long-term professional interests include consulting and developing programs to help learners of all ages, backgrounds and communities reach goals with less stress, continue to write books to inspire self-growth, as well as create university courses teaching the self-produced goal setting methodology and design. You can connect with Angela at @AngelaGermanoPositivity and @Angela Germano on social media.   *   *   *    Get Everyday Happiness delivered to your inbox by subscribing at: https://www.katiejefcoat.com/happiness  And, let's connect on social at @everydayhappinesswithkatie and join the community on the hashtags #IntentionalMargins and #everydayhappinesswithkatie on Instagram Links:  https://onamission.bio/everydayhappiness/ 

Today we are sharing a bonus episode, a behind the scenes conversation with one of my business bestie's, Jenna Edwards.  We share how we know one another, spoiler, it's been decades.  And she shares how overcoming a massive trauma helped her find happiness. Tune in to this very special episode.     Transcript: Katie: Welcome to Everyday Happiness, where we create lasting happiness in about two minutes a day through my signature method of Intentional Margins® (creating harmony between your to-dos and your priorities),  happiness science, and musings about life.  I'm your host, Katie Jefcoat, and today, I'm chatting with my business bestie, the person that breathes life and confidence into my space when it's hard for me to see it for myself. She is all about the concept that she created called “Aggressive Optimism®”  and she's one of the most favorite people in my world. You're going to love her, I can not wait, Jenna, welcome to the show! Jenna: Oh my gosh! I don't even know what to say after that beautiful introduction Katie. Thank you! Thanks for having me, I'm so excited.  Katie: We are going to have so much fun. I can not wait for whoever listens to this, to hear your magic, to just be a part of this world. So friends, we did not rehearse this. We have no idea what's going to come out of our mouths for the next ten or so minutes. Just buckle up. I feel like that's how it goes.  Jenna: I'm really paying attention to the time because you and I can talk about happiness for hours and never get tired. So, ten minutes, got it.  Katie: It's going to be so much fun. So first, tell us a little bit about you. Like how this person came to be. All the goodness.  Jenna: Oh my gosh, the audience would be like, how do you even do that in ten minutes? So in a nutshell, Katie and I met when we were in the 4th grade, which I love. Both of us moved to this small town in Minnesota and we lost touch after graduation and found each other again because of fate. I really do think it's fate. I can't believe we weren't friends from the moment we met, but now that we are, I can't imagine life without you. You bring me so much happiness.  I'm so excited sitting in my living room at 6:00 in the morning and I feel this burst of giggle that I'm trying to stifle because Katie brings me so much joy and fills my cup so much. In a nutshell, I grew up in a small town with Katie, moved to Los Angeles to be an actor, and was an actor for a second. And then a huge incident happened that you can read all about everywhere if you just Google me, which is where Aggressive Optimism® was formed. I had severe post traumatic stress disorder that left me stuttering when I talked, unable to read, couldn't write, and do all the things that you have to do as an actor. And so I had to do some serious intentional margin work way before Intentional Margins® was created, and some serious Aggressive Optimism® work in order to overcome the PTSD and the darkness that was in my head on a regular basis. And now I really want to get out there, that if you are struggling with something and people are saying you're going to struggle with it forever,  if you decide that you don't want to and you commit to doing the work, that doesn't have to be your reality. I don't have PTSD anymore, and I was told that I was going to have it for the rest of my life.  Just recently I ran into somebody who was also told they were going to have PTSD for the rest of their life and they needed to hear that that wasn't the case. So I'm sharing it with you because I'm moved to share it with you. Whatever your circumstances are, you can overcome them. It's just a matter of deciding and doing the work. And it's not easy, y'all, it's not easy. Just hopefully that gives you a little bit of hope. But for me, it was surrounding myself with people like Katie and listening to podcasts like Everyday Happiness and yeah, that's my story in a nutshell. It's not really a good story, I suppose. Katie:  Well, share with the listeners a little bit, if you can, about what this traumatic incident was, so they have a little bit of context into how this all started to shake out for you. And if you can remember the year when this happened. Jenna: It was back in 2003, if you can believe it. It's called the Farmers Market crash, if you want to Google it. But in Santa Monica, California, they have a farmer's market every Wednesday and Saturday. I was buying oranges at the farmers market on a Wednesday and this old man drove through the farmers market, four blocks, hitting over 60 of us and killing ten people. I saw three people die that day, and my brain just couldn't handle it. I suffered, like I said earlier, from severe post-traumatic stress disorder. This was something that was traumatic, right? There's no other way to say it. And so for context, that was it. And it took three and a half years before I didn't have a flashback again. So just to give you a little bit of time context, it was a long road. Katie:   And then you decided, you and your husband, to go on a road trip in a teardrop trailer for an entire year. And I saw it on Facebook. So faith and Facebook really is what connected us again, not that long ago. Jenna:  Yeah,  it was 2017, and it was crazy, like another traumatic thing had happened. It wasn't quite as traumatic as the farmers market crash for me, but something life changing. And we just decided life was too short. We had always wanted to do this year-long-cross-country-roadtrip-live-in-a-camper type of scenario. And so we sold all of our stuff and packed up and went out on the road for a year. We were going through DC. And there's Katie, and I couldn't believe it. It was like it really was fate. It really was.  Katie:  It's so fun. And we basically talked every day or every week since that meeting. Jenna: Almost five years ago. That's mind blowing. Katie:  And we think all the time. It's so interesting, you know, how people come into your life for seasons, reasons and lifetimes for different friendships and how this works. I just think it's so interesting for the listeners to think these people clearly are attracted to one another. We have a lot of the same values, yet were never friends in high school. We knew each other. We did not hang out at each other's house. We didn't go to dances together in groups. We just weren't friends. But we knew of one another because we grew up in a small town of 2,006 people in the middle of a cornfield. Our high school graduating class wasn't that big, so we knew of one another. Somehow we said yes to a friend request when Facebook started, and then years later… Jenna: Isn't that so funny? I mean, honestly, it's because you intimidated the bleep out of me in high school. Katie, let's be real. It's so interesting to think about our kid brains and teen brains because everything is so big. It's just life or death on a daily basis. You did, and I knew you were, like, doing your thing. You had really clear goals. Even though we weren't friends, I knew your goals. It was a lot. And I had the same. I really didn't like the town we grew up in, and so I wanted to get out so badly to move to Los Angeles. So I had my own thing and you had your own thing. And I'm so glad that our things crossed in the most beautiful way at the perfect time. We were both kind of, all of a sudden, on the same path, even though we live on opposite sides of the country. You would think you would be on the same path when you live next door to each other, but no, it took moving on opposite sides of the country for us to really connect. Fascinating. Katie:  And both of us doing really some in-depth work on what it means to be happy, you would say what it means to be optimistic after your trauma. I didn't necessarily have the same trauma, but was also on the path of what does happiness look like? How do we get more happiness? What is this? And we both had been on really parallel paths since we were in high school on how do we create this happiness? But yet we were silently kind of doing it ourselves because maybe it wasn't a cool thing to do, or maybe we didn't know each other was doing it, but once we talked and we're like, wait, you do that too? You think about that? We were like magic. All of the glitter and the sparkles and the magic just comes together, right? It's so interesting. Jenna:  I feel like as you were talking, it reminded me of what they always say with romantic relationships. But I also think it's true for friendships and we don't talk about it often. You have to figure out how to be a whole person before you can be a half of a couple or part of a group and be an effective part of a group. And I think that's what you just described, it's basically that, we had to go off and figure out who we were individually, otherwise you would have intimidated me still. Do you know what I mean? And we couldn't be friends if I was intimidated by you. And so it's just by the way, Katie is the sweetest, most amazing, approachable human on the planet. My intimidation was 100%, my own, like, hang ups and issues and all of that kind of stuff, as, you know, because teens. But, it's exactly that, right? You have to go off. You have to figure out who you are. You have to find you as a person and make a whole complete picture of yourself in order to be confident enough to be part of something bigger, which I think our friendship is like. You encourage me to do the things that are so scary. I could never have taken that encouragement if I hadn't done all the self work. And I think that's important for people to hear. Sometimes it's like we talk about it all the time. Reason, season, lifetime. Sometimes your friends are there for a reason. Sometimes a season, sometimes a lifetime. Sometimes that lifetime is in spurts and chunks, and you're not the same person that you were when you were 16 years old. And so it's just fascinating to me. I love our friendship. The end.  Katie: Well, that is a great place to transition because you are getting so much more of Jenna this week. All of the things that she brings to the table as an activist about the causes that she believes in and actor and film producer and an executive now, like working and doing the most amazing things, and leading teams. She gets to do so much, and I can't wait for her to share with you some of her aggressive optimism and really, the way that she's framed happiness and what matters as she was going through trauma and other things in her life. So stay tuned for tomorrow when Jenna takes over Everyday Happiness. And until next time, remember, kindness is contagious. About Jenna:  Jenna is a small town girl (like Katie) living big dreams in Los Angeles.  Founder of Aggressive Optimism®, she's excited to talk this week about all things good vibes.  She likes to hang out over on the ‘gram at https://www.instagram.com/jennaedwardslife/.  *   *   *   * Get Everyday Happiness delivered to your inbox by subscribing at: https://www.katiejefcoat.com/happiness And, let's connect on social at @everydayhappinesswithkatie  and join the community on the hashtags #IntentionalMargins and #everydayhappinesswithkatie on Instagram Links:  https://onamission.bio/everydayhappiness/

Alright folks, here it is! The final episode of Season 1 of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast (keep an eye out for Season 2 in the new year!) - and we're ending with a bang! This week I'm chatting to Katie Greenall, theatre maker, writer, and performer of the award-winning autobiographical solo show ‘Fatty Fat Fat'. We speak all about Embodiment and disconnection from our body, and discuss how we can handle a funky body image day. They also give us the inside scoop on their upcoming show ‘Blubber'.Find out more about Katie here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Here's the transcript in full:Katie: I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass-shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat, queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.INTRO:Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter.Today I'm sharing the last episode of Season One of the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. I'll be back in January with ten brand-new episodes with some incredible guests. And in the meantime you can follow along on the Can I Have Another Snack? Substack where I'm gonna be sharing some really cool features over the holiday period including my emo kid Christmas playlist, an anti-diet gift guide, and some guest holiday pieces from Kristen Scher and Virgie Tovar. You're not going to want to miss them, they're seriously great and I can't wait to share them with you. So make sure that you're signed up to receive those posts at laurathomas.substack.comAlright team, I am so pumped to introduce you to today's guest. Katie Greenall is someone whose work I've followed for a long time, and I'm really excited for you to hear this conversation.For those of you who don't know Katie, they are a facilitator, theatre maker and writer living in London. She makes autobiographical work that often explores fatness, queerness, and community alongside making work with young people and communities across London. Previously, Katie performed her award-winning autobiographical solo show, Fatty, Fat, Fat and is currently developing their new show Blubber, which we're gonna talk about in this episode. We're also gonna talk about embodiment and feeling disconnected from our bodies, and how Katie handles a funky body image day. Before we get to Katie, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely reader-supported. We don't have sponsors or do adverts or anything like that. I don't make money from affiliate links. I'm not trying to sell you anything that you don't need. All I ask is that if you value the space and the community that we're building, then please consider becoming a paid subscriber.Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Yes, you get perks and bonuses and all of that great stuff. But more than that, you make this work sustainable and accessible for everyone. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that's unaffordable for you just now, please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with the word snacks in the subject line, and we will hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. Also consider gifting a subscription to one of your pals this holiday season, or getting someone to gift it to you. Alright, team, let's get to our last guest of the season, Katie Greenall.MAIN EPISODE:Laura: All right, Katie, can you tell us who or what you are nourishing right now?Katie: I love this question. I would like to think that especially this week, I am nourishing myself. I am really trying to form some new habits this week. I've had a bit of a, I'd say a few big few months of lots of different things, particularly work-wise. And so this week I'm really focusing on building some new habits and just like getting my shit together a little bit.And so, I've really been finding that really nourishing for me. Uh, so I would say top of the list, I'm nourishing myself. That isn't usually the case. That's usually, if I'm being really honest and reflective, that self and nourishment is usually much further down. But I'm really kind of stepping into that this week, which is why having this conversation with you feels like really beautifully timed because, um, yeah, I genuinely for the first time in a long time feel like I'm doing some nourishing of myself.Laura: It sounds like that's kind of unfamiliar to you.Katie: Hmm. Yeah.Laura: I guess I have two questions on that. Like one is what, you know, what is difficult about that for you usually, secondly, you know, what is that, that self nourishment looking like for you at the moment.Katie: I think it's difficult for a number of reasons. It's difficult because, one, I work a lot, um, So a big part of my job is facilitating and holding space for other people. Um, predominantly that's working with young people in different theater settings. Like I run lots of young companies, I work in schools, or with other, in other community settings.So like my literal job is holding space for other people, um, maybe similarly to yourself, uh, or in a, kinda, in a very different way. But that idea of, of a big part of what I do is holding and hopefully nourishing other people, nourishing artists or, um, yeah, like young people, to be able to achieve what they want to achieve, to access new skills and stuff like that.And so often when I get that, a lot of that work happens in evenings and at weekends. And so just stuff like eating meals and going to bed and having any sense of routine, which is something that is really important to me, just gets pushed further and further and down the list. And the more, you know, it was just definitely not revolutionary, but like the more tired you get, the more you feel like you're, it's harder and harder to keep hold of any of those things. So that's one thing. I think secondly is that I've been taught I shouldn't be taking care of myself. That like I, that me and my fat body don't deserve care. And sometimes that is really hard to challenge. Sometimes it's really hard to have the extra energy or capacity to be like, Oh, not only am I gonna give myself the care or the nourishment, Which I think is such a beautiful word, but not, not only am I going to do that, but I'm also, that takes energy in itself. I also have to take the next level of energy, which is to do that in spite of a structure that is trying to stop me from doing that. And so it's really hard and I've spent a long time knowing that, now I've come to realise, understand more about fat liberation and the capitalist structure and diet culture and all of those things, the more I've realised I can't and don't want to go back to having, having those thought cycles. Sometimes I don't have the power or the capacity or the strength to, to challenge them. And so I exist in this sort of no man's land instead. And so yeah, it feels really nice to be able to have the capacity, and time and resource to be able to kind of apply that nourishment to to myself.Laura: Yeah, that's a really, um, there's something quite striking in what you've just said, you know, and I think a lot of us experience this from time to time, like intellectually understanding that we are being oppressed by systems that, you know, that don't care about our lives or don't care about our wellbeing, that only find value in us if we are producing and conforming and looking a certain way and et cetera, et cetera. And, and, and, you know, wanting to, you know, placing value in rejecting those systems. And also there's still being a huge barrier to overcome to access self care, to access self nourishment, to care for ourselves and, and sort of, I don't know, I'm just imagining this kind of liminal space, this no man's land that you were talking about, and I find that a lot of us probably feel stuck in that place quite often.Katie: Yeah, because there's a real resistance, like I'm, I'm resistant to regressing into this, this space that I, you know, I've had like lots of us have, or on the, on the road to having, I hope, this sort of glass shattering moment where you are like, Oh, I can live in my body, in my case, in my fat queer body and be happy. Those things can coexist. I do not have to change the other thing in order to be happy. And I mean, happy in the fullest of sense. I mean, successful in whatever successful looks like, loved, cared for, fed, cherished, admired, like whatever that looks like. And, and that can change. And for the first sort of two decades of my life, I did not realise that I could be fat and any of those things.Laura: Yeah.Katie: I'd have glimmers of it and then be like, but it was so hard to hold onto, and I thought the only way that I could hold onto them more was, was to not be fat anymore.Laura: Yeah.Katie: And so I just, I utterly refute. I completely resist, going back to thinking like that. And so I would much rather sit in this no man's land space. But that being said, it's really difficult and it's meant that I have felt increasingly disconnected to my body in a way because I am reframing it as something that like, doesn't define my existence, or doesn't define my ability to achieve happiness or success or love or any of those things. The multitude of those. But I can't always work out how to achieve them. And so it's really challenging. And so it's felt like it's easier to sort of build some space between me and my body, rather than live that under fear of going back to a place that I don't wanna.Laura: Yeah. So many little, little threads that I want to tug on there. I suppose what I'm thinking about is just this, like the energy required to subvert the system and just say, No, I'm out When still existing and living within those structures, within the, those confines and, and all of the, you know, I suppose what we're talking to is this idea that yes, we can cognitively understand anti-fat bias or racism or capitalism or whatever structure that we're, we're naming, which they're all the same thing really. Let, let's face it, um, that, that, that is the issue, but still not, you know, we still need resources to be able to survive in those systems. And, you know, if we, you know, the less access we have to those resources, the harder our lives are. And so, you know, we can yeah, label something as anti-fat bias, but it still doesn't stop the system from, you know, perpetrating anti-fat bias whenever we need to go to the doctor or buy clothes or fly in an airplane or just, you know, walk down the street.Katie: And I think, you know, there is also a huge privilege in being able to decide when or when I do or don't want to engage with my body. And obviously sometimes I don't have a choice, um, often when then someone else enters my space and, um, Kind of those micro-aggressions or macro-aggressions, either from other people or structure, whether that's like societal structure or like the physical parameters of my space i.e. When I can't help but feel an arm of the chair digging into my side. Like, there are sometimes where I can't help but be faced with that. But I think, you know, it is a privilege to be able in my day to day life, to the moments when I can, to be able to choose whether or not I want to engage with my, with those things each, each day.And I, and I don't take that for granted. I don't necessarily find it easy, but I, I don't, I don't take those for granted. And that was because I am white and, middle class and, not disabled, and, and multitude of other things. But, um, it's really difficult and I guess when I'm making work about my body, I'm opting in to engage with it. And think that's probably why making work about my body is so important to me because I think it's a way for me to opt in and to also in like, to a great extent. I mean, it could definitely be better, but like I've also been paid to do it um, you know, I'm being paid for the labor of, of opting in to engage with those things, as I say, not a lot. And certainly I'm not being paid for every moment that I'm like going through that. But that's why I think it's really important when I'm making work about my body that, that I do make work about my body because otherwise, I, I wonder how much of my life I would just not, not feel embodied.Laura: But it, it's, it's so interesting, like I, I was just thinking as you were talking here about this idea of, you know, no man's land, being in this liminal space with your body and, like it sounds as though for you disconnection, disembodiment is, is a choice almost. And, or maybe that's not quite the right way of, of framing it, cuz I think that's maybe too simplistic a way to describe it. But really what I'm trying to get at is that oftentimes disembodiment and, uh, disconnection, dissociation are, are labeled or framed as this really negative really, you know, maladaptive is the, the word that we would use like in in the body image lingo, right? Like from an academic perspective, Right. But what I'm hearing from you is that it's a survival mechanism. It's a coping mechanism.Katie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, I think about choice is really interesting. Cause like I definitely don't think it's active choice. I don't get off each day and go, or each week and go like, I'm choosing toLaura: Disembody. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: Um, there's clearly something is, like something within me is making that choice or something that's happening to me.But yeah, it's a hundred percent a survival technique but it's not necessarily one I'm ashamed of. I think I'm, most days I am proud of my fat body and I'm proud that I'm surviving in it. I am proud that I am still fat in spite of it all, that I'm honouring what my body needs and how it wants to exist in this moment. And I will like, whatever it is that I have to do in order to maintain that in a way that like, makes it make sense for me is something that, I'm not going lean away from. And I, and I think I begin to touch on this a bit in, in the show that I'm in the process of making at the moment, Blubber, which is like, I think towards the end of the process of making my last show Fatty, Fat, Fat, I was saying the same thing, you know, as is the nature of things when you perform something a lot or you talk about something a lot or, repeat yourself a lot. I was taking up the same space over and over again, or having the same conversations with journalists or audiences. But I was saying all the right things, but I wasn't, I wasn't connecting to them in the same way. And that's what this show, what Blubber's kind of came rooted in, is finding a way to try and feel more embodied, um, trying to feel more connected to a body that I've, that I'm proud to exist in, I think. And I'm proud to, to nourish and I'm proud to take care of, and I'm proud that still exists. And so it feels, I really want to feel connected to it. In a tangible way. Laura: I just wanna take a step back for a second for people who maybe aren't familiar with your previous show, Fatty, Fat, Fat, could you maybe just like give a just a very quick synopsis and then just so we can contextualise this conversation versus what you were talking about in that show.Katie: Totally. So, Fatty Fat Fat was my first solo autobiographical show. I started making it in 2018 after I just graduated from drama school. Kind of came out of, uh, frustration that lots of people in big bodies who work in the kind of entertainment, theatre, performing arts industry come against, which is like, I wasn't fat enough in inverted commas to be the fat girl in inverted commas um, or thin enough to be the normal girl in inverted commas. And so sort of, there was no castings, there was no jobs, there was, I was the fat, funny friend, etc, etc. And so it came out of, of a want to make work, but not seeing myself or stories or people like me really, um, reflected or, or being cast for. So Fatty Fat Fat was a show based on a series of anecdotes from my life where my relationship with my body changed because of other people's interactions with it.So they span from the age of 5 to 22. And they were micro-aggressions, um, generally either from family, friends or strangers that kind of, yeah, informed my relationship with my body and those were intersected with more kind of poetic movement moments that were rooted in where I was at in that process, present day. And also some kind of interactive moments that were talking about the wider fat liberation and fat acceptance movement. It was my coming out as being fat, I'd never called myself fat before I made that show. It was very much fat activism 1 0 1, and it's, you know, doesn't take away from my pride in that show. But it was time to leave it behind and, and Blubber really picks up from there.Laura: And I wanted to, so I, yeah, I just thought it would be helpful to give that kind of background what that show was versus this, this new show where it, it feels like a, Yeah, like you said before, trying to feel more connected to your body whilst, as we described before, living in systems that want that, you know, benefit from you being disconnected and disembodied. So I'm curious to know and I, I wonder if this kind of connects into this question of, of nourishment that we were talking about at the beginning and, and finding ways to nourish yourself, and that even in and of itself, being subversive as a fat person. What does embodiment mean to you? What does it look like? What does it feel like? You know, like, like we said before, sometimes it's held up as being this, this gold standard way of being in your body. Right? But I don't know that that's necessarily always true, and, and so I'm, I'm curious to hear from you. Yeah. Just tell me all your thoughts on embodiment.Katie: On embodiment. I think the short answer is I don't know what embodiment looks like to me. I think what I'm trying to work out, um, is the shortest and simplest answer. I think that embodiment can look like lots of things. So there is a version of embodiment for me that is being on stage right, I am acutely aware of everything that me and my body are doing that, especially as a solo performer that it is, I'm responsible for everything that's happening in this space. I'm like, whatever I do or say is queuing the next light or sound. I'm having a relationship to the audience. Yeah, they might be looking around the room, but like they've paid money to be there, to be there and watch me, or listen, and so like those moments, I am aware of everything. Like you learn, and like actors training about like this duality, you have to have a sort of outward eye but also an inward eye. So like which is where like, you know, practices like method acting and stuff like that become where you are like fully character all the time become a little dangerous.Um, and so yeah, my training is very much thinking about like, and what I kind of continue to pass on when I'm working with other artists is like working both ways. So, Yes, I'm saying the lines and I'm in my character, but also I'm inside, I'm thinking, Oh, am I connecting to my diaphragm? Can someone hear me? Someone's just dropped a prop over there and I need to make sure I move that out of the way before the big dance number, or whatever it is. You've got to have this duality. And so there's something about embodiment in that moment where you're like, I need to be aware not only of everything that's happening to me, around me, but also what's happening inside of me. And, and I'm really responsible for, for that. And obviously I have team that I definitely couldn't do without the team that work alongside me. But in those moments, you know, you couldn't, can't help but feel embodied. And so for me, that's why live performance is so important rather than working in film or TV or recorded media is, is because that aliveness makes me feel alive in a way that I don't necessarily know how to replicate in other, in other spaces, which comes with other things because it also is terrifying, incredibly anxiety inducing and complicated. And so it's not just as easy as standing up and being like, Here we go. But there are moments of that where you kind, when you're able to move through the fear, and you're not doing the show for the first time or something. You're like, I'm here, I'm feeling this, I'm doing this, and we're doing it together And that feels exciting.Laura: There's something, I mean, I've, I've seen both shows and there is something very like visceral and immersive about your performances. Like you're in this relationship with the audience, you're having this dialogue, this conversation with them, and I think, yeah, the word that you used, was it like, did you say vital? Vitality?Katie: Yeah.Laura: Yeah. You can perceive that from sitting in the audience. So yeah, I can, I can see how that, that that is a moment of, of connection and that's something that I took from Blubber. We were kind of talking about this off mic before that, and, and I don't know that this is necessarily how you were framing things, but, but it's certainly how I interpreted the show was that there is not this big like crescendo moment where you like, make peace with your body and then it's just like, you know, happily ever after, from, from there on out, that there was this real sense of, of moments of joy and comfort and connection in our bodies. And I'm gonna ask you about one of them in just a second. But, um, yeah, like that they were just kind of like peppered all over the place. Almost if we, we go back to that analogy that you used before, where you moved from that no man's land, where your body just kind of almost doesn't exist in a, in a way to being fully immersed and in your body and connected to it in this really positive and vital way.Katie: Yeah, I think that's such a lovely way of putting it. And, and the show doesn't crescendo in the same way. We, we spent a long time thinking about that in development we were like, Oh, where does the crescendo happen? Cause when I initially wrote it, it had about four ones rather than big one. And I think, um, It's a separate conversation to be had about like Western storytelling and what we, what that's, where that's rooted in and, and, and why we feel we need that and blah, blah, blah. That is for a separate, a separate conversation. But I really hear you. And the show has those kind of pockets of, of joy and reflection in amongst stuff that's really knotty and difficult. I think there's something for me in, Fatty Fat Fat ends with the line, I want my body back. Right? And so I sort of imagine that Blubber picks up going, Okay, here you go, imagining someone is going, All right, well there you are, here's the keys, what are you gonna do about it? Like, what happens now? And, and I think that's why this conversation about knowing's life is really pertinent to me because it's like, cool, if someone puts me in the driver's seat of my own body, do I even know where the pedals are anymore? I really know what all the buttons do? Do I know what feels good or what doesn't? Like okay, so yeah, I've got the keys, but how do I take control? How do I drive on the open road with all, Like, how do I make it feel like convertible, uh, with my, you know, the sea air in my hair? Singing to a song. Like driving isn't like that. You might get pockets of that, but other times you're stuck in a traffic jam or you can't start, or you need maintenance, or it's just like you're using it from, gets from A to B. Laura: Yeah,Katie: And I, and I think Blubber is a little bit about reflecting on my body as a vehicle and the times where it works and it feels like it's mine and it feels like I'm in it and I'm, I'm driving it. And other times where it feels like I'm, I'm still learning what it can do and, and what feels safe and, and all of those things sit within the structure of whether or not they're possible or impossible, or I'm allowed in inverted commas or not allowed or, you know, all of those things then have a context that sits around them.Laura: I think it's so important to speak to the messiness, the stickiness, how complicated it is to have a body, because I feel otherwise we, we fall into the trap of presenting binaries around our bodies, like either love your body and always be completely grateful. You know, I've spoken a lot on this series in particular around having a baby and how we're presented with these that very either or options of like, well be grateful cuz your body did this miraculous thing. Right? Or, change your body and get it, you know, get your pre-baby body back or, you know, so these really, like, I want more options than that to, to feel about my body. And I want to have those moments of joy and connection and comfort in my body. And I also want to scream when I'm having those really difficult days in my body and feeling the, the clout of all of those systems that, that really crush us in a metaphorical sense.Katie: Yeah, totally. And I, and I think, I thought for a long time, particularly with Fatty Fat Fat and maybe less so with Blubber, but I think it's, if anything, it's just got deeper, is that like I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I was, until I loved my body, until I'd reached that absolute nirvana, um, and I was completely at peace and could run around naked and do a back flip and everyone see all my, you know warts and all and I'd be like, Oh, I don't care. And I thought I couldn't make a show about fatness until I'd felt like that, because I thought it was either where I was currently at or that space and there was nowhere in between.And it was when I kind of realised that there could be some spectrum of that that, that I realised that kind of allowed me to get myself permission to make, to make the work. And, and if anything, Blubber has just got deeper and messier in the complexities of that. And it's really difficult.And I remember we had a time in, uh, the development of the show earlier in the year, in January. We were doing some movement work and I felt really challenged by something and got quite emotional after we'd just done an exercise in the room and we were reflecting on it. And, and I remember sort of sharing with the team that like, I just felt really ugly, I felt like my body didn't look nice and I was having, you know, I'm making something, you know, It was an exercise. It was, it was nothing, like, we were just trying something out and, and I, and I suddenly became really aware of like, why did that find so difficult? Because I, I was like, Oh, Cause I'm, I'm emphasising things that I, that I don't want to, or I'm, I'm feeling, I'm feeling the, the ugliness of, of my body, not because it's fat, just because I'm putting myself in weird positions.I'm screwing myself up. I'm, I'm folding all my chins in, all in on themselves. And like, and like some, some days that stuff doesn't bother you. But like in that moment I was just like, it's all very well, like sharing a lot of yourself with an audience, but then sharing something with a room full of strangers that like is not a version of yourself that you would show it, you would want to show anyone. How, how do we hold those things? How do we hold that messiness and ugliness that we all hold, but in my body it means something so different. And me sharing that and giving that to you means something really different. And that was a really useful learning for me and just being like, Oh, that is a limit. I mean, we've always thought about that whenever we've been making work, but like there is a limit of things that, that I'm comfortable doing without putting myself in danger.Laura: Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. There's so much to think about there. And I suppose as, as you were talking about all of those parts of yourself that we're taught to conceal and hide and push down, and as, all I was thinking about is just this idea that those are all things that we've been taught to feel shame about.Shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. If your body looks, you know, if you have double chins or triple chins or you know, if, if, if you don't, you know, if you turn side on and you have a belly or all of these things, we only ever see these like flat one dimensional representations of bodies that have been, you know, through layers and layers and layers of modification that it's so shocking, it's so shocking to see a real body. In all three dimensions to taking up space. And that shouldn't be shocking, but what I'm hearing you say is that there's something really, really unsafe about, you know, putting your body in those positions.Katie: Because I think there's still stuff that I'm unlearning about, like palatable fatness and being, you know, there's so many people that have said it, you know, say it far more articulately than I will or can about like the, you know, good fatties and bad fatties and how we can navigate the cultures that exist and the, and the barriers in society by demonstrating that we can be feminine or beautiful or graceful or healthy or educated or whatever it is in order to kind of overcompensate, for this like big glaringly obvious thing, which is my fat body and or, or fat bodies generally. And I think there was something that I learned in that moment about like how, how deeply that goes still. And, you know, I don't mind making a fool of myself. I don't mind showing bits of myself in a way that maybe you know, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago, I might have had more of a challenge with. I don't mind exposing myself. There's some video content in the show, which is like really zoomed in, uh, bits of my body where you see like my bitten fingernails or my, I've got lovely skin, I'm very lucky, but I always get a series of spots underneath one, my right. You know, it's just like, and those things are blown up really big for an audience to make it, you know, because my whole, to show my whole body can be a universe, right? And I don't think a version of me before that, before would've been able to cope with that.And there are things that I'm, that I'm willing to find the imperfections now. I'm willing to share those with the audience. But I'm, I think there is something about like, you know, that initially Blubber came from this idea of wanting to feel beautiful. I don't think I've ever felt beautiful. I still don't.And I think I wanted to make a beautiful show so that some people would watch it and be like, Wow, you are beautiful because you made beautiful work. I've, I've been lots of other things. I am lots of other things, but that's just not something I don't that word specifically I don't think I've ever felt that sensation.And so there was something in that moment of being like, I can be, I can not be that. I can be somewhere in the middle. I can go below the middle two. But I, like, I don't want to show all my deepest insecurities, difficulties, no matter how much I'm learning or challenging or understanding why I feel that way about myself.But like no wants to share the worst stuff with an audience. And I don't think it's fair to an audience either.Laura: I'm, I'm feeling quite emotional listening to you talk particularly about that, that sort of sequence that was projected up onto kind of this like really ethereal netty curtainy sort of situation because like I sitting in the audience found that completely breathtaking. That and the part where there's a lot of kind of like red light projected on you and it felt sort of like you were being held in this like womb. I don't know if that was the vibe you were going for.Katie: Yeah, definitely womb like, because it's, that's sort of inside the body of a whale, so um, womb, internal, all of that sort of stuff. Definitely.Laura: Yeah. Both of those things. Just, um, I don't know. There was something about that. Both of them felt very, very vulnerable, but there was something, so, I don't know that beautiful is the right word, because that feels kind of like that trivialises what it was.Katie: And I think that's why the show is less about beauty now because, I think as we went on it, like actually what it was, was about feeling. And I think as someone that's been socialised as a woman, I've been taught that beauty is the ultimate goal. And or the antidote to my fatness. And like, like so many, people who live in fat bodies, I was, you know, told a lot growing up, you would be so beautiful if you weren't fat. And like, I, again, we don't, there's a not unique experiences and, and there's so many conversations that are, have been had and are being had about like, you know, beautiful being be able to coexist with fatness. And I, and I look at, I, I feel so lucky and grateful that I look at fat bodies, other people's fat bodies now, and I, and I think they are beautiful. But I never felt that in myself and, and really and in reflection, I think it's because I want to feel sensation. And I think it goes back to our previous conversation about embodiment and disembodiment, is I felt like I just wasn't feeling anything either in or around my body or within my body because I was like, feeling was such a big part of who I was. Feeling huge emotions is such a big part of me, particularly being an artist. And I think I was just like making so much space between me and my body that I wasn't feeling any of those things. And so it wasn't really about beauty, it was about feeling held or feeling something monumental or extraordinary or new or astonishing or even awful or trying or terrifying. But like between the onslaught of news, a pandemic, government crisis, a you know, everything else on top of experiencing the world in a, in a marginalised body that intersects different marginalisations, but obviously not all of them. You just, at some point there becomes a disconnect. And so, yeah, I really hear what you're saying about those things and I, and I see and agree with you. And so I think that's why the show wasn't about beauty anymore. It was about sensation, like just being able to feel and connect with something on my body.Laura: Yeah. And, and, and I suppose what you're naming there is also dissociation disconnection. That can be really powerful, really useful. I mean, life saving survivals tools. And they have a cost. They come with this, this huge price, which is, you know, not being able to sense or feel or emote these, you know, these things that you know, to, to bring it back again to embodiment are really vital to you, you know, to feeling that aliveness, that connectedness, that humanness.Katie: Totally. And also to go back to your kind of your first question, nourishment, because it also meant that I wasn't nourishing my body, um, because I was so disconnected from it or disembodied that I wasn't feeding it properly, I wasn't nourishing it in the things it consumed in the media, wasn't nourishing it in, in loads of different ways because, because I wasn't connected enough with it to be able to empathise or to be able to understand what, what it needed. And so I think these things are all, all so connected. Because without that, without that embodiment, it's really hard to make offers of meaningful nourishment. I can kind of know to go to bed or know to eat some toast, but like, or know not to spend 10 hours on TikTok. sometimes, I mean all of those things also their placeLaura: But, But yeah, all of those things can like spending 10 hours on TikTok can be nourishing sometimes when you need But I think what you're speaking to is like the fine tuning of that. And knowing when, Yeah, it's 10 hours in TikTok versus, No, actually I need to like get outside or talk to a, another humanKatie: Or go to sleep. Do you know what I mean? Like, know when to say no. Know what my boundaries are. I've been really thinking about something that, Candice Brathwaite said online, in some point in the last few months about like, laziness and idleness and I think as a fat person you are told you are lazy and I've been called lazy as long as I can remember. And so I'm doing a lot of work at the moment with myself about what are things that I truly believe and what are things that I am thinking, what are things truly exist and what things have I been told? And cuz sometimes they are the, like, those things kind can coexist.And so there's the thing about laziness, I'm thinking at the moment. Cause I do think I'm naturally quite a lazy person. Like I could, I could easily sit on a sofa and, and not move for, for days. I, that's fine. Like I'm, I'm into it. I'm not, I'm not mad at, But part of me's like, is that true or is that just because I've been told that that's true.And I, and I'm something that Candice has said recently online was like about how, um, sometimes the best way to take care of yourself is, is to challenge those instincts.Laura: Mm.Katie: Actually for me, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself, and I'm still trying to work out what that looks like in present day, was kind of before pandemic, um, before 2020, cause the pandemic's still happening. But, um, before 2020 anyway of like, some of the best ways I used to take care of myself was actually saying yes and going out and doing things rather than saying no and staying in.Laura: Mm-hmm.Katie: Because I have chronic FOMO and I love being busy, I love getting my en you know, I get my energy from other people.I love living my life like that. And so there's a version of me now that's like, oh, is that still true? Or do I need to actually stay home and take care of myself or eat, not, you know, go to bed early or whatever, Or am I being lazy? And I, I, I'm really trying to connect with what is true about me. Um, and that's something I'm finding really difficult at the moment, but, I'm really trying to engage with, and I think, again, links to lots of things we've been talking about.Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. And I love, I love that kind of distinction that you made. Like is this something, what, Tell me again what it was. Is this something I'm thinking?Katie: Is this something I'm thinking I've been told or is true?Laura: Yes. Okay. Yeah, and I think that that's such a, a helpful way of, of reframing some of those, those thoughts and beliefs that come to our mind. And I have, I have such a visceral reaction to the word lazy because I like firmly believe that that is just a social construct designed to make us feel bad about rest.Well, on that note, the last question that I had for you, and, you know, given all of the complexities, um, you know, and the, the stuff that you're kind of really in process of, of figuring out at the moment, I would love to know who or what is nourishing you right now?Katie: First of all, my housemate has bought me a really delicious pan aux raisin from the coffee shop up the road, and it is sitting in a paper bag behind the door.Laura: It's waiting for you,Katie: behind meLaura: Your stomach, grumbling stomach knows it's there, it's ready.Katie: That is the thing that is about to nourish me and, um, and she is just, um, being proud of that. I think, the things are nourishing me is routine, trying to find structure and routine in my life.That's something that's really nourishing me at the moment. Something that is also nourishing me is really leaning into my deep love and interest in the Real Housewives, um, That is something that's deeply nourishing me at the moment. And being able to talk in depth with friends about that is really nourishing parts of me that I didn't know I needed.Laura: Okay. And you will not be surprised to learn that this is not the first time that this, that this has come up podcast this season.Katie: Wow.Laura: So I talked to Clara Nosek, aka Your Dietician BFF. Had a great conversation. Highly recommend go back and listening to that. And her, the thing that's nourishing her right now is reality tv, but very specifically Housewives,Katie: Great. So I'm a big reality fan, reality TV fan, but particularly Housewives. So, I could, like, even now, just the thought of being able about it, especially in a public forum is like really make me froth at the mouth. Um, some young people I work with, was working with, uh, like as the sort of present for the end of the project, they very sweetly got me a seal cuddly toy with some like gold hoop earrings and they um, called it the Real Housewife of Shepherd's Bush, which is where we were working together. So, yeah, that's something that's really nourishing me right now. Finding these pockets of sunlight. Um, hopefully if you are, if and when you're listening to this, you might be able to find one of those too, but I dunno, it seems like from behind you, you've got a lovely bit of sunshine, your side.But yeah, there's some beautiful kind of sunlight pouring into my windows and I've got this sort of glitter ball Laura: Is that what it is?Katie: globe.Laura: Oh, okay. I've seen these little like,Katie: Pockets, Yeah. There's, so every now and then my living room, um, if the light is at the right angle, makes these sort of spots of light appear. And so all of those things feel really nourishing, I think for one of the first times in my recent life, like my work isn't nourishing me, uh, at the moment and like I'm looking to other things to hold that with me, and I think that's really exciting.That doesn't mean. It's not satisfying or it's not, not doing what it needs to do or like, it just means it's not the sole focus of that, where that nourishment is coming from. And I feel really excited by the prospect of that and that feels quite new. And finally, I've got a, I'm going to see all being well, I'm going to see, um, Adele in Las Vegas next March. AndLaura: There was like a wry smile, and I was like, I'm desperate to know what it is.Katie: So currently all roads lead to Vegas and that is deeply nourishing me, cuz it's like the end of the winter. It just feels, it's not so far away that it feels impossible, but it feels tangible, but enough time to get excited. So like that is also something me. So like,Laura: focused, you're focused on getting there.Katie: so there's, there's a real mix and I think variety is a spice of life. You know, I'm a freelancer. I'm, although I've just said all that stuff about routine and structure, like, I feel excited when I'm bouncing around and doing multiple different things. And so, trying to find that balance, um, feels exciting and, hopefully nourishing as well.Laura: It's that, I don't know if this like speaks to your experience, but like I've seen a lot of people online and it like resonates with me as well. Like talk about that neurodivergent urge towards chaos, but needing routine and structure like the routine and structure being really helpful and useful, but being the exact opposite thing, like also feeling like suffocating at the same time.Katie: Absolutely.Laura: All right. Before we finish up this episode, I would love to know what you're snacking on. So it can be a literal snack if you want, although we've covered off the pan raises end, so check that box. But it can be a book, a podcast, a movie, a person, anything. So can you share what you're snacking on right now?Katie: I am snacking on, Oh, there's so many things I could say. I had something in mind but I'm changing my mind. I am snacking on, I'm really trying to, I'm gonna go for like a literal thing I'm snacking on.Laura: Go on.Katie: And I'm really reaching back into, um, like childhood foods, the foods that maybe I didn't have growing up or, thought I couldn't. And, and so I'm really leaning into like the cheese string, the fruit winder, the penguin, the Frosty cereal bar. Those are my, like ones of choice, but also, Primula, the cheeseLaura: My God. Yeah. Yeah.Katie: on Ritz crackers.Laura: my God. Love RitzKatie: That is, that is like a real peak school time snack that we used to have at, like, at the end of term.And so, yeah, it's, those are the things I'm stacking on at the moment, just like really trying to find that joy in those little snacks again. Those are the things that I'm loving.Laura: so funny you say that cause I was just in Scotland last week and my friend and I bought a pick and mix and I do not remember the last time I bought a pick and mix and I was just like, chomping on these cola bottles, like the sour sweets. It was amazing. So yeah, I'm right there with you with the like, nostalgic, nostalgic foods.Okay, so my thing is a book, I'm like halfway through reading it, which I'm always a bit like, can I really recommend a book when I'm not completely finished it? But like, I think I know enough to know that it's worth reading. And this is someone that I'm really hoping will come on the podcast next season, but, so the book is called Small Fires. And it's by Rebecca May Johnson. And she is the co-editor of Vittles, which is a great Substack. I really struggle to describe what it's about because basically throughout the course of the book, she cooks the same recipe over a thousand times. And she talks about, she talks about cooking and food through this, like political lens is kind of the only way that I can think, or like I can describe it. But she's talking about appetite and she's talking about how kind of, in the same way that you were talking about that, like duality between the artist and the audience.She's talking about like this sort of reciprocal relationship between a recipe and the person that's cooking it and the food, and it's just such a, like, mind blowing way to think about food and cooking and it's just really cool. I, you just need to read it. Maybe I'll link to like, about review in the show notes, but Yeah, so it's called Small Fires by Rebecca May Johnson and it's just like, it would make a great Christmas present for someone.So yeah, that's my snack. All right, Katie, tell us, tell the audience where they can find out more about you and your work.Katie: so you can find out more about me and my work on, um, my Instagram or Twitter, which is @katie_greenall on both, um, or my website, which is www.katiegreenall.com. Those are the best ways to find me.Laura: Perfect. And I will obviously link to all of that in the show notes. And yeah, I have really, really enjoyed this conversation. It's felt really nourishing. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how Blubber sort of evolves in the direction that you take it in. And as soon as you know when and where that's gonna be, I will be sharing about it and let the audience know where they can come and see that show.So, thank you so much for being here and being so candid and honest about your relationship with your body, your relationship with food, and yeah, just all the things that you've been thinking about. It's been really a great conversation. So thank you.Katie: It's been a joy. Thank you so much for having me.OUTRO:Laura Thomas: Thank you for listening to Season 1 of Can I Have Another Snack? If you've enjoyed these conversations, then please rate and review in iTunes and share these episodes with your friends. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This season wouldn't be possible without your support so thank you for being here and valuing my work and I will catch you in January, when we'll be back with a whole host of really cool guests exploring appetites, bodies, and identity. Talk to you then. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

“It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong.”Meet Katie, the newest member of The VBAC Link team! You will be in awe after hearing about her 39-hour HBAC journey (not including a week of prodromal labor!). Find out how Katie was able to bounce back after being told she was complete, pushed for hours, then learned she was actually only at 7 centimeters. You will also hear what chiropractic care did for her after 30+ hours of active labor. Katie followed her intuition to pursue her HBAC and worked hard during pregnancy to make sure that she was mentally strong during labor. Little did she know about the sheer exhaustion she would have to endure, but that preparation made all the difference.Additional linksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Blog: Home Birth After C-SectionThe VBAC Link Blog: Chiropractic CareFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Happy Wednesday, Women of Strength. We are so excited to be back with you today. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have a special story for you. Obviously, all of our stories are amazing and special, but if you haven't seen on our social media yet, we have a new team member on The VBAC Link team and she is Katie. Her name is Katie and she is going to be sharing her HBAC story with you today. If you didn't know, she started in August and has been killing it. So grateful for her. She has been helping me with emails, social media, and all the things so you may run into her if you are writing on Instagram or anything like that. You may run into her messaging. Just tell her hello and give her a squeeze because you guys, she is amazing. Head over to her post on the Instagram page. Learn more about her and say hello that way as well. So yeah, we are going to dive into this story. Review of the WeekBut of course, we have a review. You guys, we are running down on reviews, so we need your reviews. If you would not mind, send us your reviews. You can give them to us on Apple Podcasts. You can do it on Google or Spotify. I think just google.com. On Facebook, you can message us and you can Instagram us. We love your reviews and we would love to read them. We have so many amazing stories coming up to finish out 2022 which is crazy to even think about that. It's August right now at the time that I'm recording and we have almost everybody booked up for 2022. We have amazing stories, I will promise you that. But send us a review and maybe your review will just be read next on the podcast. This review says, “Must have for all pregnant women.” I love that because definitely, this is something we want to portray out there. Yes, VBAC is specific to vaginal birth after Cesarean, however, this podcast really applies to so many people out there who are just wanting to have a baby. Ways to avoid a Cesarean, ways to find good care, good providers, all of the things. So I would 100% agree with that. Must have for all pregnant women. It says, “Prepping for my VBAC in August” which is right now. “I found this podcast and it has been so inspiring. Hearing facts from experienced doulas and successful VBAC mamas has given me the confidence I didn't know was possible. I now feel comfortable talking to my OB as well as my family and friends about why I want to VBAC and feel informed of all the risks. I also love hearing the CBAC stories so I will be ready to find healing however my next birth plays out. Thank you for all you do.” This is from Emily and that just gave me the chills because exactly. We want to prep for all things, all scenarios, all situations. So definitely listen to the CBAC stories. You guys, they are still so beautiful. A vaginal birth doesn't always have to be for everyone too. Some people just choose a scheduled CBAC and that is okay too. So we love, Emily, that you are listening to all of the stories and that you are loving it. So it's August, and if you haven't had your baby yet, we are sending you the love and if you have and you are listening, send us a message. We'd love to know how it went. Katie's storyMeagan: All right, Katie. How are you doing? Are you excited? I'm excited. Katie: I'm so excited. So happy to be here, Meagan. Thanks for having me on the show. Meagan: Oh my gosh, absolutely. We couldn't not have you on the show. Thanks for being with us and with The VBAC Link. I'm not kidding. You are a saving grace. Every day, I feel so confident that everything is just going to be okay because you are in my life. Katie: Oh my gosh, you are so sweet. Thank you. But seriously, I love Meagan. I love The VBAC Link, so it's such an honor for me to work with you and work with The VBAC Link. It's so special. Meagan: Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I would love to turn the time over to you to share your journeys. Katie: Yes, I would love to. I just want to say that this is a special story for me especially because Meagan was such a big part of my journey. And all of you listeners, I just have to say that Meagan is as amazing as she seems. She is so wonderful. When we were living in Utah, I met with several different doulas and I loved them all. I knew them personally because I'm a doula as well and for some reason, I just felt like Meagan was my girl. She just helped me so much in my journey, so I am so grateful for you and it's fun that you were there with me. So you can remember everything I don't. Meagan: I will never forget it. I will never forget your birth. It was absolutely incredible and I'm so excited to hear you tell the full story in your words because obviously, I experienced it from my point of view, but I'm so excited to hear it from you. Katie: Oh thanks. I'm excited too. So I'll just start off with my C-section. My first son, whose name is Ellison, was born in 2019. He was born via C-section. I ended up having low amniotic fluid. I went in. I think I was 38 + 5 days or something for my appointment. He had low amniotic fluid. I was with a midwife group in Utah, a midwife hospital group, and she was just saying, “Oh, that's super low.” I was measuring low and she had me go in for an ultrasound. They saw. They checked the pockets of amniotic fluid and I can't remember what mine was but it was actually really low. It was probably 2 or 3 or something and so she was like, “Oh man. You have to have your baby right now.” I was a doula and so I did know things like this could come up. I felt like I knew how to counteract things like this because I really was hoping not to get induced and have to go that whole route, but it was really hard being the mom in this situation. I didn't have a doula. I hadn't hired a doula. So being the mom, I was feeling really scared and like, “Oh my gosh. This is my first baby. What should I do?” I was trying to research it and it just kind of felt like we needed to go in for the induction. So anyway, we had an induction. My baby wasn't tolerating the induction and I think it was probably 18 hours into labor or something. Actually, pretty much right when we started the induction, it seemed like things were going downhill. He just wasn't ready. His heart rate kept decreasing. We were having some scary signs. We did end up having a C-section and that was really devastating for me. Especially looking back, I feel like the induction was not necessary at all. I feel like the C-section maybe was necessary, but it was caused because of the induction. Meagan: Mhmm. Katie: Learning more about it and talking to the midwife that I had for my second baby, she was like, “Yeah, it seems like there are some things that you could have tried first or some things you could have done.” It's hard looking back and knowing that there were some things that were maybe still in my power that I could have changed for my experience, but it's okay. I've processed it and it was unfortunate, but it ended up being okay. I've healed from that. But then it was really stressful and just anxiety-inducing for me knowing that I would have to have a VBAC. I just didn't even imagine that that would be in the cards for me. I got all of the VBAC resources and I joined The VBAC Link. I knew Meagan and Julie just in passing, networking as doulas and stuff. Yeah, so I was planning for a VBAC and I did all of the things to prep for it. I would say that I mostly prepped mentally for my VBAC. I know how hard it can be to give birth generally, but especially with a VBAC, it just plays with your mind so much more. I was originally planning on doing a birthing center and I think it was maybe my first trimester, maybe into my second, when I decided to do a home birth. My husband and I hired Meagan. We felt really good about Meagan. We felt really great about our midwife that we decided to go with, so we were feeling really, really excited for my HBAC. I had prodromal labor for about, I think it was six days before I went into actual labor. That was just a nightmare. Anyone who has experienced prodromal labor knows how horrible it is. I just kept thinking, “This is the night. This is the night,” but it wasn't. It was just going on all night long. I was exhausted. I couldn't sleep. One of the days, my midwife suggested that I pump a little bit on and off during the day to see if that would kickstart my body into labor. That didn't work. It just made it worse. So anyway, I was already exhausted, but I was also hoping. I've heard so many women say that when they have prodromal labor, their labor goes quickly. So in my mind, I was like, “You know what? This is going to be okay. I'm laboring a lot right now and maybe I won't have to do it later.” In my mind, I had an idea that my labor would be kind of fast. I felt prepped and I was just giving myself that affirmation that it was just going to be quick and that it was going to be a strong, powerful, quick labor. That was not the case at all. I went into labor. I started having consistent contractions on my due date which was kind of fun. It was probably around 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. that night. They started out milder, but I definitely noticed them. My husband and I went to dinner. We dropped our son off at my parents' house. We were just going to go on a due-date date. We went out to dinner and I remember I was just so exhausted. I was having mild contractions, I really didn't think anything of it at this point because it had just been so regular. It had been happening so much. We got home and I got into bed and I remember thinking, “Okay. This feels different. I think this might be it,” because I hadn't started my prodromal. It usually started around 2:00 a.m., but this was around 11:00 p.m., so I was like, “Oh, maybe this is it.”I did start having stronger contractions. I think it was 11:00 p.m. that night. I labored through the night. I couldn't sleep because they were so strong. I was laboring on my birth ball. I got in the tub. I did different positions and stuff, but I couldn't be in bed because they were painful enough for me not to be in bed. The next morning, my husband woke up and I was like, “Hey, I think this is it. I've been up all night and they've been–” They were mild to strong. I think that night, they started getting around 4-5 minutes apart and they were staying like that. So then I woke up and I was doing all of the things. I called my midwife and I was like, “Hey, this is what's happening.”  I think I had told Meagan the night before, “Hey, I'm having contractions like this, so get some sleep if you can.” So I called my midwife and she was like, “Just let me know how it goes. I'll come by this afternoon,” kind of thing. It seemed like it was still early labor-ish. They did feel strong, but it seemed like they were going from 4-5 minutes apart to 6-7 minutes apart, so we were just trying to keep it going. My midwife ended up coming over. I think it was around– my midwife came over around 4:00 p.m. to check me because I was telling her, “They are getting a lot stronger, more consistent. I think I'm ready to get checked and see where I'm at.” So she came over and I was dilated to 3 centimeters, 0 station. I remember being so excited because, with my first baby, I hadn't been dilated at all. I mean, he was a little bit early and I was being induced, so I was dilated to a 0. I didn't have many expectations or hopes, but 3 felt very exciting to me. I was like, “That's okay. We can work with a 3. We can keep going with a 3.”So I felt very excited. I kept switching between rest positions and upright positions. We would go on a walk and bounce on the birth ball, and then I would try to do some side-lying or laying in the bath or something like that and switched back and forth. I was pretty tired at that point. Then my contractions started getting stronger and closer together. I called Meagan and she came over. I think that was around 10:00 p.m. or 11:00 p.m. They felt really strong at that point. As a doula, I was like, “You know what? I've been laboring for so long. I know the process of what labor normally looks like.” So in my mind, I was like, “I probably don't have too much longer. I've probably been in active labor for a couple of hours or something.” So I set in my mind, “I can do this for a little bit longer. I'm okay.” But I was really tired and they had been getting really strong. Meagan was there and I remember she did a bunch of rebozo stuff on me. My contractions were weirdly really strong, and then I would randomly have a couple of smaller contractions. We were wondering if baby was in a wonky position or something. That night, it was 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. probably and I was having so much pelvic pressure. I was shaking. I was throwing up. I remember just being in bed and it was so intense. I had Meagan and my husband doing counterpressure.The funny this is that my husband had surgery on his pec. Meagan: Oh gosh, I know. Katie: A week and a half before my due date or something, he tore his pec at the gym and then had surgery. I was like, “You've got to be kidding me. Why did this happen right before our HBAC that we planned?” That was stressful to me and I felt so bad for Meagan because I knew she would have to pick up a lot of the slack because he was in a full sling and a cast. Meagan: He was. Katie: He was hardly even moving. He wasn't supposed to lift anything, so that was a rough situation for us. Meagan was doing so much with the counterpressure and the physical labor. So we were all tired. Anyway, they were doing counterpressure and I was side-lying. I was throwing up. In my mind, I was like, “Yes. This is awesome. I'm throwing up.” I think I had around that point, I had someone call my mom and my sister. I had three sisters who were coming over and were hanging out in the front room. My mom was there. I was wanting them to be a part of it as much as they were wanting to be. We were all waiting. I don't know about you, Meagan. I don't know if I've actually ever talked to you about it, but I think around that time, I was convinced that I was in transition because I was showing so many of the signs. Meagan: You were. Katie: So in my mind, I was like, “This is awesome. I've been laboring for long enough. I'm shaking. I'm throwing up,” and it was getting me kind of excited thinking about it. I was thinking that I was getting really close. So yeah, then I was just like, “Okay, let's wait it out and let things keep progressing.” An hour later, things still hadn't been progressing. It seemed like it was still the same. I was completely exhausted at this point. I had been in labor for a really long time. A full day, a full night. It had been 24 hours at that point. We were just trying to decide, “Should I rest right now? How far along am I? Should I just rest and conserve my energy because I still have a while to go or should I get up and move and try to keep this thing going?”I decided to have my midwife check me and I told her I did not want to know. It felt so important to me that I did not know what progress I made or what my dilation was just because it is such a mind game. Especially for me, I knew it would mess with me so much to know the dilation and to do the math that doesn't really add up between dilating, so I really didn't want to know. She checked me and I remember her being pretty stoic. She didn't really say anything, kind of walked out. But then it was the worst feeling ever because she went into the other room and was talking to my mom and my sisters. My mom and my sisters were planning on being in the long haul until I had the baby, but I think everyone was assuming it would be sooner rather than later. But then my mom and my sisters were like, “Okay, Katie. We are going to head home and go to sleep. We will be back in a little bit.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I didn't know what I was at, but I knew that it was bad enough that people were leaving the house. I remember just being so devastated. Meagan: They went to go get lunch, right?Katie: No, it was 2:00 a.m.Meagan: Oh, she went out to sleep. She went out to sleep. Katie: Yes. So Melissa, my midwife, went to her van to sleep. My mom and my sisters went back home. They live close.Meagan: Yep, yep. Katie: Meagan and my husband were with me and I was just like, “Are you kidding me? Everyone knows that I'm not going to have my baby soon?” So I didn't know it at that point, but I later found out that I was still a 3. Still 0 station. I was a little bit more effaced. I barely made any progress and it had been almost 12 hours since she checked me the first time the day before. I'm so glad that I did not find out because I don't even know what that would have done to me and to my mental game. I don't know if I could have come back from something like that. I was so upset by it already and I remember I was just crying and just like, “Oh my gosh. I can tell that it's bad.”Meagan came up and hugged me and was being so nice. She was like, “Katie, it's okay to cry. It's okay. You are so strong. You can get through this.” It was exactly what I needed to hear, so I just had the little pity party for a second and it was just probably the lowest moment for me in my labor. I had a pity party for a little bit and I was like, “Okay, well I guess I'm just going to try to sleep as much as I can and keep resting because I probably have a long way to go.” I labored in bed and I was in the shower and on the birth ball. My midwife came back in and she was being so nice. She was massaging me and Meagan was doing counterpressure because my poor husband couldn't do anything. They were working really hard and my husband was standing next to me and sleeping next to me. He was there with me the entire time which was so special.That entire night was rough. I can't even remember it honestly. It was so exhausting. I was so tired, my contractions were so strong, and I still had a lot of pelvic pressure. I just couldn't believe that I was not very far in my mind, so that was really upsetting. I think it was the next morning, I think, around 9:00 a.m. I was going to have my midwife check me again because again, we were just like, “What's our plan? Do we need to keep sleeping? Should we get up and move around?” It was morning. I remember I had been laboring in the bath for a while and the sun was coming up and I was just out of it. I was so tired and everyone was like, “Okay Katie. It's morning. It's best to get up and live your life during the day. We're not going to be sleeping anymore. We need to have a baby soon,” kind of thing. Not that they were pressuring me but they were just like, “Let's keep this going. We can't just keep laying in the bath this whole time.” She checked me at 9:00 a.m. She checked me not during a contraction, I believe, so she was like, “Oh my gosh. I can stretch you to a 10. You are +1 station.” We were just over the moon so excited. My husband and I went into our bedroom and we just cried and cried. My midwife was like, “Hey Katie, I think it's time to start pushing. Let's give you a minute to gather your strength. We're going to start pushing.” We were so excited. I started pushing on the birthing stool. That was going on for maybe an hour, an hour and a half, or something like that. We started pumping just because weirdly, my contractions just didn't get– they were strong, but it was just on and off. They were 3-4 minutes apart, and then 5-6 minutes apart. They never really made a clear pattern which was kind of weird. I was pumping and trying to stimulate my nipples so my contractions would get stronger and I'd be able to push the baby out quickly. We were doing that for a while. I wasn't making progress. We could tell that baby wasn't really coming or that nothing was really changing. We were kind of like, “Hmm, what's happening?” My midwife checked me during a contraction and she was like, “Shoot, Katie. You don't want to hear this right now.” She was like, “I think you're going to kick me actually, but I think you're only at a 7.” I don't really even know. I'm not sure what happened. I think it had something to do with how she checked me not during a contraction so things were a little more loose and open, and then she checked me the second time during the contraction, so it was tighter and baby wasn't ready to come and I wasn't open. Is that right, Meagan?Meagan: Yeah, and I'm wondering too exhaustion-wise. Your body was needing rest. Katie: Yes. Totally. I had been in labor for probably 32 hours at that point.Meagan: Forever. Katie: Or something.Meagan: Yeah and not even just that, but prodromal before too. I'm trying to remember if it was more that your body just needed rest. And also, the position of the pelvis. Katie: Yes. Meagan: But yeah. It was such a bummer. It was a bummer. Katie: Yeah, it was just the worst news ever. It was so hard to go from 10 and pushing, I did it, I can do this for a couple more hours, and then she was like, “You're at a 7.” I was like, “No.”Meagan: Yeah, and we weren't sure if it was any swelling maybe. Maybe you were pushing prematurely. It felt like 10, then with the swelling. I don't know. Yeah.Katie: It was a strange, unfortunate situation. Meagan: I know. I wanted to cry for you because I was watching you kill it and then to hear that, that's just hard. That's just hard. Katie: Yes. It was pretty devastating. For some reason, I felt strong mentally at that point. I was just like, “Okay, a 7. We can work with that. That's great. I've seen people go from a 7 to a 10 in 20 minutes. I've seen them go from 7 to 10 in an hour. I'm getting closer than I was.” So we kind of had a pow-wow. We talked about it. My midwife was like, “How are you feeling? Are you doing okay? Are you coping? I don't want to push you into anything.” She was super nice and gave me the autonomy to decide what I wanted to do. She was like, “We can break your water if you are wanting to move things along.” I decided, it just felt in my mind that I still had more to give. I was just like, “I think I'll know when I'm maxed out and I'm not there yet. I think I can make it. I'm going to keep going until I just can't keep going any longer.” I went on a walk. Meagan and my mom and my husband came on a walk with me. Meagan was making me do curb walks and these squat jump lunge things.She was like, “I know you hate me.” I was like, “Yes. This is horrible.”Meagan: You were like, “Yes. This is stupid. What are we doing?”Katie: It was the worst. I was just in so much pain and laboring. So we were doing that. I was trying to get baby to move, and then Meagan had the best idea ever to go to the chiropractor and get adjusted. For some reason, I don't know why we didn't think of that before. I had been going to the chiropractor my entire pregnancy for that reason. Because I was having an HBAC, I wanted to opportunity to go to the chiropractor if I needed to. For some reason, I was just in labor land or something. I just didn't think about it. Meagan: Well, and it was nighttime. Katie: Yeah, that's true. Meagan: And at this point, it was early. Not early, early. It was 11:00 maybe. I'm trying to think of what time it was. A little bit before lunch, maybe right after lunch, so I was like, “Hey, is your chiropractor's office open?” Did Matt call?Katie: I think it was Matt or my mom. Meagan: Someone called and was like, “Can you come?”Katie: Yeah. Someone called because I was like, “Have him come to my house,” because I had talked to my chiropractor about it and he said that he did home visits and stuff, so I was like, “Have him come over. I need to be adjusted.” The receptionist on the phone was like, “Yes, he can totally come over. It'll be an hour, an hour and a half or something.” I was like, “No. I am not waiting that long for the chiropractor to get here.”Luckily, the chiropractor is really close, so my mom, Matt, and I jumped in the car and my mom drove us to the chiropractor's office. The car ride was horrible and I was just in the back seat moaning, vocalizing, and just having strong, strong contractions. We get to the chiropractor's office and I'll just always remember. It was the funniest thing. Even though I was out of it, I can still remember so clearly what was happening. I was a mess. I had been in labor, I think, for 36 hours at that point. I was a complete mess. I looked exhausted. My belly was sticking out. I was not wearing shoes or something. It was crazy. These two receptionists were teenagers or in their early twenties or something like that. You could just tell that they were shook. I was in there at the office and I was making my sounds every four minutes or whatever and they were just like, “What the heck?”Meagan: What are you doing here? Yeah. Katie: They've probably never seen a woman in actual labor who was not at the hospital.  Meagan: Right.Katie: They were just like, “What is happening?” It was so funny and I was just past the point of being embarrassed. I just couldn't care less at that point. The chiropractor adjusted me and I remember him being like, “Okay, how long have you been in labor? Okay, 36 hours.” He's like, “Yeah, totally. Hopefully, after I adjust you, you'll go home and have your baby in half an hour or an hour or something.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? I hate you so much. It's not that easy. No. It's not just going to happen in an hour.” I was so bugged that he said that. Meagan: Like, “Don't tell me that.”Katie: Yeah, exactly. It was well-intentioned of course, but I was just like, “I'm in labor. I've been in labor forever.” I feel like I can say that because that's actually pretty much what happened. So I left the chiropractor's office and seriously, the second I walked out, my next contraction after being adjusted, I felt the difference in my contractions. I was like, “Oh man. That did it. Baby is coming. I'm ready to go,” kind of thing. So we drove back home and I feel like everyone could tell, “Oh wow. This is different. These contractions are different than they have been.” I was excited, but I was just so focused. I labored on the toilet. I labored in an upright position in bed a little bit. I probably did that for an hour and a half or two hours or something like that. Then I started making grunting noises. Everyone was like, “Yep, sounds great. That's exactly what you should be sounding like right now.” Those contractions were so intense. I remember one of my biggest affirmations was, “These waves or these contractions are not harmful to you.” I remember just feeling an out-of-body experience almost where I just got in my mind, “This is not harmful. This is helpful. This is natural,” so I could disconnect from my body almost and just have my body do its thing and have my mind be in la-la-land. “Everything's fine. We're doing it. Don't worry about it.”That was crazy. I experienced that for a couple of hours of just total disconnection from my body almost. So then I pushed on the birthing stool for a little bit. I probably pushed for 40-45 minutes or so.Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say close to an hour.Katie: Yeah. Meagan: You pushed hard too, really hard.Katie: I was just like, “I am done. Let's get the baby out.” It was so weird. I had never pushed a baby out through my vagina because I had my C-section, so I kept being like, “Is this right? I'm not sure. Am I doing it the right way? I can't tell.” I kept asking for a lot of affirmations and stuff. That was really helpful. I just remember that Meagan was right there. My midwife was right there. My mom and my husband had been physically holding me up the whole time. I was leaning against him on the birth stool and he was just right there the whole time. I just felt so loved and so supported in a way that I've never felt before. It was incredible and so amazing. I was getting close. We could tell that he was getting closer and I was about to deliver him, so then we moved to the bed to help tearing-wise so he didn't shoot out in that upright position. We moved to the bed and I remember that the ring of fire was so real to me. I was like, “Oh wow. Yeah. That's it. I know what everyone's talking about.” I remember I just kept asking, “Guys, can I do this? Can I do this?” It just felt so intense and it was just a crazy moment in my life. Everyone was like, “You can do this Katie.” People were giving me water. My husband was holding me and people were brushing my forehead and stuff. It was just so sweet and so tender. I kept pushing and then my baby was born that day. It was the best feeling in the whole world. Every time I look back, I just think about that moment and think, “I am so strong.” I can't believe that I went through all of those challenges and the ups and downs. I just felt like the strongest woman in the world that I was able to accomplish that. I kept saying, “I got my VBAC! I got my VBAC! I'm so excited!” I was a mess, just crying. I was just exhausted, completely exhausted. I remember even feeling like I couldn't even really hold my baby because I couldn't even move my body or do anything. I was needing support to hold the baby. My husband was holding him and stuff. It was just the best moment ever. I had been in labor from the beginning of the contractions to the end for 39 hours which is just crazy. I just can't even believe that that is a thing. How is that even possible? How did I go through that? I just think it's so cool because I don't know if people remember your story, Meagan, but you were labor for– was it 42 hours?Meagan: Yeah, 42. Mhmm. Katie: I just thought it was so amazing that Meagan was there with me the whole time and knew exactly what I was going through because she went through it too with her VBAC. She knew exactly what to say and it was just wonderful that I had the support and the team because I wouldn't have been able to labor for that long in the hospital. There's no way. I just really needed that time and the space and the patience. Everyone gave that to me. It was the most beautiful experience for me and my husband. We think about it all of the time. Meagan: Yeah, oh my gosh. It's funny because that's where I was too where I'm like, “I feel this for her so much. I understand this in so many ways.” We both had differentparts of our stories and everything. When you pulled that baby out when that baby came out, I mean, I wish that I could create this image for our listeners because you were in bed and everyone was surrounding you. Your family had returned. Katie: My sisters were there, yep. My mom.Meagan: Everyone had returned and the energy and the power in this room, oh. It was so incredible. It just gave me the chills. It was a whole level up of strong. Katie: I know. It was so powerful. My midwife and her assistant and I were just surrounded by women. And then my sweet husband who was by my side the entire time. So I started labor and I labored that night. It was just early labor and stuff and he slept, but he just didn't even sleep the rest of the time. He was there with me the whole time supporting me emotionally. He still did a lot physically as much as he could, but he was there and so strong. It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong. I always look back and it makes me feel so confident knowing that I was able to do something like that. My body did that with me. Meagan: Absolutely. There were a lot of parts along the way where you could have just said, “I can't do this.” The doubt could have taken over. And even if you had a moment, which is fine, those crying moments are healthy. Get it out. Cry. Let's vent. Let's yell. Whatever you need to do, and then you honed back in and got to work. Oh, it paid off and it was just remarkable. Leaving that birth, you would never have known that we were up all night because I was so high on life and happy and energized. I literally left energized. Katie: Oh my gosh. That's so sweet. That's so nice. I just felt so grateful. I had been preparing so hard for my HBAC. The second I found out I was pregnant with my VBAC baby, I started preparing. I feel like somehow, I don't know. I knew that I would need all of that mental preparation for what was coming. Meagan: Yeah. Katie: It just paid off. I wouldn't have been able to do it if I hadn't been so strong mentally. Meagan: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we prepare as much as we can before mentally and physically, and then at the moment, we still have some work to do. That's okay too, right? Katie: Absolutely. Meagan: We still have processing. We hear these stories and I was triggered. I mean, I was in my driveway stomping around, throwing my arms, throwing a fit and all of the neighbors were probably like, “What is happening with her?” because I was like, “If my water didn't just break, I would be able to do this.” I was just such a mess. Yeah, you know, we just have these things that we need to work through. It really is. Mental and physical prep is so important. Deciding where to hold that space and give birth. You did it in your home which is amazing and Julie did hers in her home. I did a birth center. I wanted a home, but my midwife didn't do home births, and then we know that amazing births happen at the hospital too. I think that finding your space, finding your support, prepping your mind, all of these things are going to benefit you. Even in the review, even if it doesn't end up in the exact way that you want it to, through this preparation, you will be able to feel better about the situation, hopefully. That's what we hope. Katie: Absolutely, yeah. Meagan: That's one of the things that we talk about in our VBAC class, in our parents' class, is that here are the tools and the information. We are letting you decide what is best for you whether that be the hospital, home, birth center, CBAC, induction, whatever it may be, right? Here are the stats. Here are the facts. Here's the information and here are the tools, and then we support you and love you no matter how you birth. Yeah. I will cherish your birth forever. I'm so honored and grateful that I got to be in that beautiful space and witness such power. Really, I can't explain the power that came from that room. People were standing on the bed. We were standing on the floor. We were all over. I remember when I looked at Melissa, I was like, “Try closed-knee.” She looked at me and was like, “What? You must be intoxicated.”All of these things, we just come up with ideas and that's one of the best things about having that team is that you have all of the brains instead of just one entire brain. Katie: Yeah, for sure. Meagan: And when you're in the moment, you can't think about those things personally like, “I should do this. I should go to chiropractic care.” Right? I didn't think that we should do rebozo at my birth. We didn't do rebozo. I'm like, “Duh. Why didn't we do that?” I don't know. Okay, so I want to share a little bit of a stat that we have on our website. We have a blog about home birth after Cesarean and how to decide if HBAC is right for you or if the hospital is right for you. But it says, “Home births are becoming more common, especially home birth after Cesarean or HBAC. Laboring at home is common, but even more and more parents plan to stay home for the delivery itself. In 2017, almost 1.4% of births in the U.S. happened at home or a birth center, up to 50% since 2004.” Isn't that crazy?Katie: So crazy. Meagan: Up 50%. So we have the study here and we talk about how to plan for a home birth if you are wanting a home birth, the risks of home birth, the benefits of home birth, and then same thing, how to choose if the hospital is right for you, how to plan, all of the things. And so definitely check out that blog. We will have it in the show notes, and then we also love chiropractic care. We have seen powerful things with chiropractic care, and so we will also link our Benefits of Chiropractic Care in the show notes as well. I encourage if you can or if you are comfortable with it to check out a chiropractor near you who specializes, if you can, in Webster-trained or in pregnancy. Not every chiropractor is going to suit a pregnant person well because there are different types of chiropractors out there. Try to find one that knows how to correctly adjust a pregnant person and is able to really work with the pelvic dynamics while pregnant as well. Anything else that you would like to share, Ms. Katie?Katie: I just want to share that I, like so many women, am so grateful for The VBAC Link and for you Meagan, and when Julie was doing it, just so much for sharing these stories. I listened to the podcast so frequently when I was pregnant with my second and getting prepped for my VBAC. I'm so grateful to you guys for creating the community around VBAC, helping us find resources, and giving me the encouragement and confidence to do a VBAC for my second. Meagan: Aww. That makes me so happy. That's really our goal here– giving you the education, the confidence, and feeling better while you are going through your journey. Thank you again so much. I seriously am not kidding. I am so grateful to you. I am so happy that you are back in my life even though you are not here in Utah anymore. Seriously, I just know that you are going to do amazing things here at The VBAC Link and you are going to continue to touch people all over the world. Katie: Aww, thank you, Meagan. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In today's episode of Women Who Lead, Teresa assembles women who've thrived in tech and STEM positions. Despite women accounting for just 28% of positions, these distinguished women discuss their experiences in real estate tech, overcoming obstacles in a male-dominated field, and their professional expertise in their fields. Meet the Techies: Patty Smejkal, Vice President & Chief Technology Officer, HomeServices of America  Katie Stephans, Technology Director, HomeServices of America   Maggi Wiegert, Regional Marketing & IT Director, Berkshire Hathaway HomeServices Ambassador Real Estate & HomeServices of Nebraska  How did they get started in real estate? Patty - Unplanned. At the time worked at Wells Fargo supporting their mortgage side, and once she left there was an opportunity at HomeServices, which she took. She learned the entire real estate industry and has been there for the last fifteen years. Katie - Unplanned. She was working in development when she met a guy whose wife was a top sales rep for a mortgage company. She got a referral to the company and started as a trainer. But she found a passion for the real estate process and enjoys continuing to learn. Maggi - Her mom was a real estate agent, she started there in college at HomeServices of Nebraska, and started as a help desk person who was the go-between explaining how to use technical applications. What are some things we need to do to be wary of scams online? Maggi - If you have to ask the question “Is this legit?” it probably isn't.  Katie - Understand what you're doing and what you're putting out there about yourself, your life, and your finances. Find ways to protect yourself online. Patty - Make an effort to keep work and personal stuff separate. Keep your personal stuff out of a work email. Email platforms offer two-factor authentication that drastically reduces someone's capability to steal your information. Pivoting: Patty - She went to college and got a degree in sports medicine, worked in the field for a few years, and women in that field were not accepted. She left the job she had and went to a temp agency, and they were the ones who sent her to Wells Fargo in IT. Katie - One of her biggest risks was coming to HomeServices. She had worked at her prior team for over a decade and she ended up turning down the job she spent ten years working towards. It was one of the best decisions she ever made. She branched out, grew, and learned more about real estate and technology than she ever could've imagined. Maggi - She had been at CBS Home for a long time, and the pivot from a few hundred to over a thousand people to see the merge come to fruition was a risk. Familiarize yourself with new sales, new managers, new everything. It was worth the initial risk. Salesforce was big on mentorship, and Teresa wants to mentor more women. Were you ever mentored/what do you believe in mentorship? Patty - Back when she started in IT, she had the opportunity to be mentored by some senior IT women, which were few and far between. She loves that (pre-covid) Microsoft had a program that offered all these different experiences to expose high school women to the tech world and the fields. It was cool to see these women, answer their questions, and explain what they would've done differently. They'd ask for advice, and Patty would always say “don't be afraid to fail.” Fail stands for “First Attempt In Learning” and she continues to do that today. Katie - Mentoringship doesn't have to be a big, program-driven event. As leaders, it's being generous with your time and your experience with the people around you. Katie's had amazing opportunities to learn more from the people around her, even if they're in an informal setting, as long as she's open to those opportunities. Programs or thought processes in pursuing tech jobs: Patty - It's not a formal program, but because it has exploded, it was areas that have become completely specialized. There are multiple specialties people might not realize, so try out the different areas and see which specializations interest and inspire you. Don't lose sight of the personal relationships and communication skills you have. Katie - It's not just about the STEM skills, because those can be taught. Mastering communication and your ability to work with others will be incredibly impactful to your success.  Maggi - When she hires, she looks at customer service skills before IT experience. Bosses and hiring managers look for people who can communicate with others. What would you recommend? Maggi - Cybersecurity, it's a growing space that is necessary for almost any business. Katie - Data science is a big thing, especially with the growth of AI. Everything we do is online, which is communication and user experience - those “soft-skill” tech roles are a great opportunity for a lot of people. Overcoming Biases: Maggi - She started right out of college and looked young. So now that she's hiring people, they're often shocked that she's their boss. Nothing major. There have always been women in leadership roles and IT that she's kinda seen and felt influenced by.  Katie - When she started everyone called her kiddo. Coming from a male-dominated field, you have to find different ways to deal with people. That might mean adjusting her communication or style depending on who she was talking to. Know your stuff and be confident, because you're going to have to prove yourself to them. Patty - That situation happened, especially in sports medicine. As a student trainer, she worked and there were not a lot of women standing on the sidelines of sports events. But push through, know your stuff, and be confident to earn their respect. Book Recommendations: Maggi - Soundtracks by John Ackoff? Tribe of Mentors The Ideal Team Player by Patrick  Who Moved My Cheese? Hold a Copy from the Today Show person Interview book about overcoming challenges pattysmejkal@homeservices.com katiestephans@homeservices.com maggi.wiegert@bhhsamb.com Remember, always bring women up the ladder with you as you climb to the top. For more great content from Teresa, connect with her on LinkedIn, join her Women Who Lead Series on Facebook and subscribe to her YouTube channel.  This episode is brought to you in part by Venus et Fleur. Are you looking for a great way to show appreciation to family, friends, or even customers? Give them a floral arrangement they won't forget anytime soon. These beautiful arrangements make the perfect closing gift for any realtor to stay top of mind. Visit venusetfleur.com and use code “hsoa20” when ordering for 20% off.

About KatieKatie Sylor-Miller, Frontend Architect at Etsy, has a passion for design systems, web performance, accessibility, and frontend infrastructure. She co-authored the Design Systems Handbook to spread her love of reusable components to engineers and designers. She's spoken at conferences like Smashing Conf, PerfMatters Conf, JamStack Conf, JSConf US, and FrontendConf.ch (to name a few). Her website ohshitgit.com (and the swear-free version dangitgit.com) has helped millions of people worldwide get out of their Git messes, and has been translated into 23 different languages and counting.Links: Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/ Design Systems Handbook: https://www.designbetter.co/design-systems-handbook Book of staff engineering stories: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RMSHYGG staffeng.com: https://staffeng.com ohshitgit.com: https://ohshitgit.com dangitgit.com: https://dangitgit.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Katie Sylor-Miller, who is a frontend architect at Etsy. Katie, thank you for joining me.Katie: Hi, Corey. Thanks for having me.Corey: So, I met you a long time ago—before anyone had ever heard of me and the world was happier for it—but since then you've done a lot of things. You're obviously a frontend architect at Etsy. You're a co-author of the Design Systems Handbook, and you were recently interviewed and included Will Larson's book of staff engineering stories that people are mostly familiar with at staffeng.com.Katie: Yeah.Corey: So, you've done a lot of writing; you've done some talking, but let's begin with the time that we met. To my understanding, it's the only time we've ever met in person. And this harkens back to the first half—as I recall—of 2016 at the frontend conference in Zurich.Katie: Yes, before either of us were known for anything. [laugh].Corey: Exactly. And it was, oh, great. And I wound up getting invited to speak at a frontend conference. And my response was, “Uh, okay. Zurich sounds lovely. I'm thrilled to do it. Do you understand who you're asking?”There are frontend folks—which, according to the worst people on the internet is the easiest form of programming; it isn't a real engineering job, and if that's your opinion, please stop listening to anything I do ever again—secondly, then there's the backend folks who write the API side of things and what the deep [unintelligible 00:02:03] and oh, that's the way of the future. And people look at me and they think, “Oh, you're a backend person,” if their frontend. If they're backend, they look at me and think, “Oh, you're a DevOps person.” Great. And if you're on the DevOps space, you look at me and think, “What is wrong with this person?” And that's mostly it.But I was actually invited to speak at a frontend conference. And the reason that they invited me at all—turns out wasn't a mistake—was that I was giving a talk that year called, “Terrible Ideas in Git,” which is the unifying force that ties all of those different specialties together by confusing the living hell out of us.Katie: Yes. [laugh].Corey: So, I gave a talk. I thought it was pretty decent. I've done some Twitter threads on similar themes. You did something actually useful that helps people and is more lasting—and right at that same conference, I believe, you were building slash kicking it off—ohshitgit.com.Katie: Yes. Yeah. It was—Corey: Which is amazing.Katie: Thank you. Yeah, it was shortly thereafter. I think the ideas were kind of starting to percolate at that conference. Because you know—yeah I was—Corey: Because someone gave a talk about Git. Oh, I'm absolutely stealing credit for your work.Katie: No, Corey—Corey: “Oh, yeah. You know, that was my idea.”Katie: [laugh].Corey: Five years from now, I'm going to call myself the founder of it, and you're just on the implementation details.Katie: I don't—nonononono—Corey: That's right. I'm going to D.C. Bro my way through all of this.Katie: [laugh]. No, no, no, no. See, my recollection is that my talk about being a team player and a frontend expert with a T-shape happened at exactly the same time as your talk about Git because I remember I wanted to go watch your talk because at the time, I absolutely hated Git. I was still kind of learning it. So yeah, so I don't think you really get any credit because I have never actually heard that talk that you gave. [laugh].Corey: A likely story.Katie: [laugh]. However, however, I will say—so, before I was up to give my talk, the emcee of the conference was teasing me, you know, in a very good-natured ribbing sort of way, he was teasing me about my blog being totally empty and having absolutely nothing in it. And I got on the plane home from Zurich, and I was starting to think, “Oh, okay. What are some things that I could blog about? What do I have to say that would be at all interesting or new to anyone else?”And like I think a lot of people do, I had a really hard time figuring out, okay, what can I say that's, maybe, different? And, I went back home, I went back to work, and at one point, I had this idea, I had this file that I had been keeping ever since I started learning Git and I call it, like, gitshit.txt. And hopefully, your listeners don't mind lots of swears because I'm probably going to swear quite a bit.Corey: No, no. I do want to point out, you're accessible to all folks: dangitgit.com, also works but doesn't have the internal rhyming mechanism which makes it, obviously, nowhere near where it needs to be.Katie: [laugh]. Well—Corey: It's sort of a Subversion to Git if you will.Katie: Yes, exactly.Corey: I—Subversion fans, don't yell at me.Katie: [laugh]. Anyways, so I remember I tweeted something like, “Oh, what about if I took this text file that I had,” where every time I got into a Git mess, I would go on to Stack Overflow—as you do—and I would Google and I—it was so hard. I couldn't find the words to find the answers to what I was trying to fix. Because one of the big problems with Git that we can talk about it a bit more in detail later is that Git doesn't describe workflows, Git describes internal plumbing commands and everything that it exposes in its API. So, I had a really hard time with it; I had a hard time learning it.And, you know, what I said, “Okay, well, maybe if I published on my blog about these Git tips that I had saved for myself.” And I remember I tweeted, and I got a handful of likes on the tweet, including from Eric Meyer, who is one of my big idols in the frontend world. He's one of the godfathers of modern CSS. And he liked my tweet, and I was like, “Oh, okay. Maybe this is a real thing. Maybe people will actually find this interesting.”And then I had this brilliant idea for this URL, ohshitgit.com, and it was available, and I bought it. And I swear to you, I think I spent two hours writing some HTML around my text file and publishing it up to my server. And I tweeted about it, and then I went to bed.And I kind of expected maybe half a dozen of my coworkers would get a little sensible chuckle out of it, and like, that would be the end of it. But I woke up the next morning and my Twitter had blown up; I was on the front page of Hacker News. I had coworkers pinging me being like, “Oh, my God, Katie, you're on Hacker News. This is insane.” And—Corey: Wait, wait, for a good thing, or the horrifying kind of thing because, Hacker News?Katie: Well, [laugh] as I have discovered with Hacker News, whenever my site ends up on Hacker News, the response is generally, like, a mix of, “Ha ha ha, this is great. This is funny,” and, “Oh, my God, somebody actually doesn't understand Git and needs this. Wow, people are really stupid.” Which I fundamentally disagree with and I'm sure that you fundamentally [laugh] disagree with as well.Corey: Oh, absolutely.Katie: Yeah. So—Corey: It's one of those, “Oh, Git confuses you. You know what that means? It means you're human.” It confuses everyone. The only question is, at what point does it escape your fragile mortal understanding? And if you are listening to this and you don't believe me, great. I'm easy to find, I will absolutely have that discussion with you in public because I promise, one of us is going to learn something.Katie: [laugh]. Awesome. I love—I hope that people take you up on that because—Corey: Oh, that would be an amazing live stream, wouldn't it?Katie: It would. It would because Git is one of those things that I think that people who don't understand it, look at it and think, “Gosh, you know, I must be stupid,” or, “I must not be cut out to be a developer,” or, “I must not know what I'm doing.” And I know that this is how people feel because that's exactly how I felt myself, even when I made ohshitgit.com, that became this big reference that everybody looks at to help them with Git, like, I still didn't understand it. I didn't get Git at all.And since then, I've kind of been forced because people started asking me all these questions, and, “Well, what about this? What about that?” And I was just like, “Uh… I don't know. Uh…” and I didn't like that feeling, so I did what, you know, obviously, anyone would do in my situation and I sent out a proposal to give a talk about Git at a conference. [laugh].And what that did is when my talk got accepted, I had to then go off and actually learn Git and understand how it works so that I could go and teach it to other people at this conference. But it ended up being great, I think because I found a lot of really awesome books. There's A Book Apart book called Git for Humans, which is incredibly good. There's a couple of websites like learngitbranching.com.There's a bunch more that I can't think of off the top of my head. But I went out and I sort of slowly but surely developed this mental model, internally, of how Git works. And I'm a visual thinker and I'm a visual learner, and so it's a very visual model. And for what it's worth, I think that was my biggest problem with Git was, like, I came from Microsoft .NET environment before that, and we used a program called TFS, Team Foundation Server, which is basically like a SVN or a CVS type source control system that was completely integrated into Visual Studio.So, it was completely visual; you could see everything happening in your IDE as you were doing it. And then making this switch to the command line, I just could not figure it out until I had this visual mental model. So yeah, so ever since then I've just been going around and trying to teach people about Git and teach people this visual mental model that I've developed, and the tips and the tricks that I've learned for navigating Git especially on the command line. And I give talks, I do full-day training workshops, I do training workshops at work. And it's become my thing now, which is flabbergasting [laugh] because I never intended [laugh] for—I didn't set out to go and be this Git expert or to be, quote-unquote, “Famous” for a given value of famous, for knowing stuff about Git. I'm a frontend engineer. There's still a piece of me that looks at it, and is like, “How on earth did this even happen to me?” So, yeah, I don't know. So, that's my Oh shit, Git!?! story. And now—Corey: It's a great one. It's—Katie: Thank you.Corey: Git is one of those weird things where the honest truth of were, “Terrible Ideas in Git”—my talk—came from was that I kept trying and failing to understand Git, and I realized, “How do I fix this? I know. I will give a talk about something.” That is what we know as a forcing function. If I'm not quite ready, they will not move the conference. I know because I checked.Katie: Yep. [laugh]Corey: And one in Zurich was not the first time I'd given it, but it was very clearly something that everyone had problems with. The first version of that talk would have absolutely killed it, if I'd been able to give it to the core Git maintainers. And all, you know, seven of those people would have absolutely loved it, and everyone else would have been incredibly confused. So, I took the opposite tack and said, “All right. How do I expand this to as broad an audience as possible?”And in one of the times I gave it, I said, “Look, I want to make sure it is accessible to everyone, not just people who are super deep into the weeds but also be able to explain Git to my mother.” And unlike virtually every other time where that, “Let me explain something to my mom.” And that is basically coded ageism and sexism built into one. In that case, it was because my mother was sitting in the front row and does not understand what Git is. And she got part of the talk and then did the supportive mother thing of, and as for the rest of it. “Oh, you're so well-spoken. You're so funny. And people seem to love it.” Like, “Did you enjoy my discussion of rebases?”Katie: [laugh].Corey: She says, “Just so good at talking. So, good.” And it was yeah.Katie: [laugh]. Oh, yeah. No, I, I—totally—I understand that. There's this book that I picked up when I was doing all of this research, and I'm looking over at my bookshelf, it's called Version Control with Git. It's an O'Reilly book.And if I remember correctly, it was written by somebody who actually worked at Git. And the way that they started to describe how Git works to people was, they talked about all kinds of deep internals of Unix, and correlated these pieces of the deep internals of Git to these deep Unix internals, which, at the time, makes sense because Git came out of the Unix kernel project as their source control methodology, but, like, really? Like, [laugh] this book, it says at the beginning, that it's supposed to teach people who are new to Git about how to use it. And it's like, well, the first assumption that they make is that you understand the 15 years' worth of history of the Linux kernel project and how Linux works under the hood. And it's like, you've got to be absolutely kidding me that this is how anyone could think, “Oh, this is the right way to teach people Git.”I mean, it's great now, going back in and rereading that book more recently, now that I've already got that understanding of how it works under the hood. This is giving me all of this detail, but for a new person or beginner, it's absolutely the wrong way to approach teaching Git.Corey: When I first sat down to learn Git myself it was in 2008, 2009, Scott Chacon from GitHub at the time wound up doing a multi-day training at the company I worked at the time. And it was very challenging. I'm not saying that he was a bad teacher by any stretch of the imagination, but back in those days, Git was a lot less user-friendly—[laugh] not that it's tremendously good at it now—and people didn't understand how to talk about it, how to teach it, et cetera. You go to GitHub or GitLab or any of the other sites that do this stuff, and there's a 15-step intro that you can learn in 15 minutes and someone who has never used Git before now knows the basics and is not likely to completely shatter things. They've gotten the minimum viable knowledge to get started down to a very repeatable, very robust thing. And that is no small feat. Teaching people effectively is super hard.Katie: It really is. And I totally agree with you that if you go to these providers that they've invested in improving the user experience and making things easier to learn. But I think there's still this problem of what happens when everything goes wrong? What happens if you make a mistake, or what happens if you commit a file on the wrong branch? Or what happens if you make a commit but you forgot to add one of the files you wanted to put in the commit?Or what happens if you want to undo something that you did in a previous commit? And I think these are things that are still really, for some reason, not well understood. And I think that's kind of why Oh Shit, Git!?! has fallen into this little niche corner of the Git world is because the focus is really like, “Oh, shit. I just made a mistake and I don't know what to do, and I don't know what terminology to even Google for to help me figure out how to fix this problem.” And I've come out and put these very simple, like, here: step one, step two, step three.And people might disagree or argue [laugh] with some of the commands and some of the orders, but really, the focus is, like, people have this idea in their head, I think, particularly at their jobs, that Git is this big, important thing and if you screw up, you can't fix it. When really a lot of helping people to become more familiar and comfortable with Git is about ensuring them that no, no, no, the whole point of Git is that just about everything can be undone, and just about everything is fixable, and here's how you do it. So, I still think that we have a long way to go when it comes to teaching Git.Corey: I would agree wholeheartedly. And I think that most people are not thinking about this from a position of educators, they're thinking about it from the position of engineering, and it's a weird combination of the two. You're not going to generally find someone who has no engineering experience to be able to explain things in a context that resonates with the people who will need to apply it. And on the other side, you're not going to find that engineers are great at explaining things without having specific experience in that space. There are exceptions, and they are incredibly rare and extremely valuable as a result. The ability to explain complex things simply is a gift.Katie: It really is.Corey: It's also a skill and you can get better at it, but a lot of folks just seem to never put the work in in the first place.Katie: Well, you know, it's quote-unquote, “soft skills.” So [laugh].Corey: Oh, God. They're hard as hell, so it's a terrible name.Katie: [laugh]. Yeah. Though I could not agree more, I think something that I really look at as a trait of a super senior engineer is that they are somebody who has intentionally worked on and practiced developing that skill of taking something that's a really complex technical concept, and understanding your audience, and having some empathy to put yourself in the shoes of your audience and figure out okay, how do I break this down and explain it to someone who maybe doesn't have all the context that I do? Because when you think about it, if you're working at a big company, and you're an engineer, and you want to, like, do the new hotness, cool thing, and you want to make Kubernetes the thing or whatever other buzzword term you want to use, in order to get that prioritized and on a team's backlog, you have to turn around and explain to a product person why it's important for product reasons, or what benefits is this going to bring to the organization as far as scalability, and reliability. And you have to be able to put yourself in the shoes of someone whose goals are totally different than yours.Like, product people's goals are all around timelines, they're around costs, they're around things short-term versus long-term improvements. And if you can't put yourself into the shoes of that person, and figure out how to explain your cool hot tech thing to them, then you're never going to get your project off the ground. No one's ever going to approve it, nobody's going to give budget, nobody's going to put it in a team's backlog unless you have that skill.Corey: That's the hard part is that people tend to view advancement as an individual contributor or engineer purely through a lens of technical ability. And it's not. The higher you rise, the more your job involves talking to people, and the less it involves writing code in almost every case.Katie: One hundred percent. That's absolutely been my experience as an architect is that, gosh, I almost never write code these days. My entire job is basically writing docs, talking to people, meeting with people, trying to figure out, where, what is the left hand doing and what is the right hand doing so I can somehow create a bridge between them. You know, I'm trying to influence teams, and their approach, and the way that they think about writing software. And, yes there is a foundation of technical ability that has to be there.You have to have that knowledge and that experience, but at this point, it's like, my God—you know, I write more SQL as a frontend architect that I write HTML, or CSS, or JavaScript because I'm doing data analysis and [laugh] I'm doing—I'm trying to figure out what does the numbers tell us about the right thing to choose or the right way to go, or where are we having issues? And, yeah, I think that people's perceptions and the reality don't always match up when it comes to looking at the senior IC technical track.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. 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Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: At some level, you hear people talking about wanting to get promoted, and what they're really saying—and it doesn't seem that they realize this—is, “I love what I do, so I'm really trying to get promoted so I can do less of what I love and a lot more of things I hate.”Katie: [laugh]. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. [laugh]. In some ways, in some ways, I think that you've got to kind of learn to accept it. And there are some people, I think that once you get past the senior engineer, or maybe even the staff engineer, maybe they don't even want to go there because they don't want to do the kind of sales pitch, people person, data numbers pitching, trying to get people to agree with you on the right way forward is really hard, and I don't think it's for everyone. But I love it. [laugh]. I absolutely love it. It's been great for me. And I feel like it really—it plays to my strengths in a lot of ways.Corey: What I always found that worked for me, as far as getting folks on board with my vision of the world is, first, I feel like I have to grab their attention, and my way is humor. With the Git talk, I have to say giving that talk a few times made me pretty confident in it. And then I was invited to the frontend conference. And in hindsight, I really, really should have seen this coming, but I'm there, I'm speaking in the afternoon, I'm watching the morning talks, and the slides are all gorgeous.Katie: Yes. [laugh].Corey: And then looking at my own, and they are dogshit. Because this was before I had the sense to hire a designer to help with these things. It was effectively black Helvetica text on a white background. And I figured, “All right, this is a problem. I only have a few hours to go, what do I do?”And my answer was, “Well, I'm not going to suddenly become an amazing designer in the four hours I have.” So, I changed some of the text to Comic Sans because if you're doing something bad, do it worse, and then make it look intentional. It was a weird experience, and it was a successful talk in that no one knew what the hell to make of what I was doing. And it really got me thinking that this was the first time I'd spoken to an audience who was frontend, and it reminded me that the DevOps problems that I normally talked about, were usually fairly restricted to DevOps. But the things that everyone touches, like Git, for example, start to be things that resonate and break down walls and silos better than a given conference ever can. But talking instead about shared pain and shared frustrations.Katie: Yes. Yes. Everyone likes to know that they are not alone in the world, particularly folks who are maybe underrepresented minorities in tech and who are afraid to speak up and say, “Oh, I don't understand.” Or, “That doesn't make any sense to me,” because they're worried that they're already being taken not as seriously as their white, male counterparts. And I feel like something I really try to lean into as a very senior woman in a very male-dominated field is if I don't understand something, or if I have a question, or something doesn't make sense is I try to raise my hand and ask those questions and say, out loud, “Okay, I don't get this.”Because I can't even tell you, Corey, the number of times I've had somebody reach out to me after a meeting and say, “Thank you. I didn't understand it either.” Or, “I thought maybe I just didn't understand the problem space, or maybe I just wasn't smart enough to understand their explanation.” And having somebody who's very senior who folks look up to, to be able to say, “Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense.” Or, you know, I don't understand that explanation.Can you explain it a different way? It's so powerful and it unblocks people and it gives them this confidence that, hey, if that person up on stage, or leading this meeting, or writing this blog post doesn't get this either, maybe I'm not so stupid, or maybe I do deserve to be in this industry, or maybe it's not just me. And I really hope that more and more people can feel empowered to do that in their daily lives more. I think that's been something that has been a tremendous learning through all of this experience with Oh shit, Git!?!For me is the number of people that come up to me after conference talks, or tweet me, or send me a message, just saying, “Thank you. I thought I was alone. I thought I was the only one that didn't get this.” And knowing that not just am I not the only one, but that people are universally frustrated, and universally Git makes them want to swear all the time, I mean, that's the best compliments that I get is when folks come up to me and say, “Thank you, I thought I was alone.”Corey: That's one of the things that I find that is simultaneously the most encouraging and also the most galling. Every once in a while I will have some company reach out to me—over a Twitter thread or something—where I'm going through their product from a naive user perspective of, like, I'm not coming at this with 15 years of experience and instinct that feed into how I approach this, but instead the, I actually haven't used this product before. I'm not going to jump ahead and make assumptions that tend to be right. I'm going to follow the predictable user path flow. And they are very often times where, “Okay. I'm hitting something. I don't understand this. Why is it like this? This is not good.”And usually, companies are appreciative when I do stuff like that, but every once in a while, I'll get some dingus who will come in, and like, “I didn't appreciate the fact that you end up intentionally misinterpreting what we're saying.” And that's basically license for me to take the gloves off and say, “No, this was not me being intentionally dumb. Sure, I didn't apply a whole bunch of outside resources I could have to this, but it wasn't me intentionally failing to get the point. I did not understand this, and you're coming back to me now reinforces that you are too close to the problem. And, on some level, when your actual customers have problems with this, they are hearing an element of contempt from you.”Katie: Totally.Corey: “This is an opportunity to fix it and make it more approachable because spoiler, not a lot of people love paying money to something that makes them feel stupid.”Katie: [laugh]. See, Corey, I don't know. You say that you're not really a frontend person, but that is a very strong UX mindset. Like that—Corey: Oh, my frontend stuff is actually pretty awesome because as soon as I have to do something that even borders on frontend, I have the insight and I guess, willingness to do the smart thing, which is to immediately stop talking and pay someone who knows what they're doing.Katie: [laugh]. Thank you. On behalf of all frontend engineers everywhere, I applaud that, and I appreciate it.Corey: It comes down to specialty. I mean, again, it would also be sort of weird from my perspective, which is my entire corporate position is I fix the horrifying AWS bill. So, if you're struggling with the bill in various capacities, first, join basically everyone, but two, you're not alone so maybe hire someone who is an expert in this specific thing to come in and help you with it. And wouldn't it be a little hypocritical of me to go in and say, “Oh, yeah, but I'm just going to YOLO my way through this nonsense?”Katie: Mm-hm. [laugh]. Yeah, [laugh] I don't know we'll want to include this in the final recording, but I have a really hilarious story, actually, about Amazon. So—Corey: Oh, please. They listen to this and they love customer feedback.Katie: [laugh].Corey: I'm not being sarcastic. I'm very sincere here.Katie: Well, this is many, many, many years ago. I mean, probably, oh, gosh, this is probably eight years ago at this point. I was interviewing for a job at Amazon. It was a job to be a frontend engineer on the homepage team, which at the time, I was like, “Oh, my God, this is Amazon. This is such an honor. I'm so excited.”Corey: And you look at amazon.com's front page, and it's, “Oh, I can fix this. There's so much to fix here.”Katie: Yes.Corey: And then reality catches up if I might not be the first person in the world to have made that observation.Katie: [laugh].Corey: What's—Katie: Well—Corey: Going on in there?Katie: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what's going on. So, I think I did five different phone interviews. You know, before they invite you out to Seattle, there's—and again, this was eight years ago, so this was well before everyone was working at home. And in those five hours of phone interviews, I want you to make a guess at how many minutes we spent talking about HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.Corey: I am so unfamiliar with the frontend world, I don't know what the right answer is for an interview, but it's either going to be all the time or none of it, based on the way you're framing it.Katie: Yes. [laugh]. It was basically, like, half an hour. So, when you are a frontend engineer, your job is to write HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. And in five hours, I talked about that for probably half an hour.It was one small question and one small discussion, and all the rest of the time was algorithms, and data structures, and big O notation, and oh, gosh, I think they even did the whole, like, “I typed something into my browser, tell me what happens after I type a URL into my browser.” And I think that just told [laugh] me everything that I needed to know about how Amazon approached the frontend and why their website was such a hot mess was because they weren't actually hiring anyone with real frontend skills to work on the frontend. They were hiring backend people who probably—not to say that they weren't capable or didn't care, but I don't know. That's my favorite Amazon story that I have is trying to go work there, and they basically were like, “Yes, we want a frontend engineer.” And then they didn't actually ask about any frontend engineering skill sets in the job. They didn't offer me anyth—I don't think I got invited to go to Seattle, but I probably wouldn't have anyways.Corey: No. Having done it a couple of times now, again, I like the people I meet at Amazon very, very much. I want to be very clear on that. But some of their processes on the other hand, oh, my God. It shows that being a big company is clearly not necessarily a signal that you solved all of these problems. In some cases, you're basically just crashing through the problem space by sheer power of inertia.Katie: Yeah, definitely. I think you can see that when looking at their frontend. Harkening back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier is you don't go to Amazon and learn patterns of interaction that are applicable to every single site on the web. Amazon kind of expects that users are going to learn the Amazon way of shopping and that users are going to adjust how they navigate the web in order to accommodate Amazon. You know, people learn, “Oh, this is what I do on Amazon.” And then, you know, they're—Corey: Oh, that's the biggest problem with bad user experience is people feel dumb.Katie: Mm-hm.Corey: They don't think, “This company sucks at this thing.” They think, “I must not get it.” And I know this, and I am subject to it. I run into this problem all the time myself.Katie: Oh, yes.Corey: And that is a problem.Katie: Yeah. It's why I think, like you said earlier, it's so important when you work somewhere to figure out how do you get that distance between being a power user enough so that you can understand and appreciate what it's like for a regular user who's not a power user of your site. And what do they do? And UX researchers are amazing. A good UX researcher is worth absolutely their weight in gold because, I don't know if you've ever sat in on a UX session where the researcher is walking a user through completing a specific task on a website, but oh my God, it's painful.It's because [laugh] you just want to, you want to push them in the right direction, and you want to be like, “Oh, but what about in the upper right over there, that big orange button,” and you can't do that. You can't push people. You have to be very open-ended, you have to ask them questions. And every single time I've listened in on a UX research recording, or a call, I want to scream through the computer and be like, “Oh, my gosh. This is how you do it.”But, you know, you can't do that. So, [laugh] I think it's important to try to develop that kind of skill set on your own of, “Okay, if I didn't stare at this website every day, what would it be like for me to try to navigate? If I was using a keyboard for navigation or a screen reader instead of a mouse, what would my experience be like?” Having that empathy, and that ability to get outside of yourself is just really important to be a successful engineer on the web, I think.Corey: Yeah. And you really wish, on some level, that they would be able to articulate this as an industry. And I say ‘they,' I guess I'm speaking of about three companies in particular. I have a lot more sympathy for a small startup that is having problems with UX than I am for enormous companies who can basically hurl all the money at it. And maybe that's unfair, but I feel like, at some point of market dominance, it is beholden on you to set the shining example for how these things are going to work.I don't feel that way, necessarily about architecture on the backend. Sure, it can be a dangerous, scary tire fire, but that's not something your customers or users need to think about or worry about, as long as it is up from their perspective. UX is very much the opposite of that.Katie: Totally. And I think, working at a former startup, there's a tendency to really focus a lot on those backend problems. You know, you really look at, “Okay, we're going to nitpick every single RPC request. We're going to have all kinds of logging and monitoring about, okay, this is the time that it takes for a database API request to return.” And just the slightest movement and people freak out.But it's been a process that I've been working really hard on the last couple of years, to get folks to have that same kind of care and attention to the stuff that they ship to the frontend, especially for a lot of organizations that really focus on, “Well, we're a tech company,” it's easy to get into this, oh, engineering is all of these big hard systems problems, when really your customers don't care about all of that. Yes, ultimately, it does affect them because if your database calls are really, really slow, then it has an effect on how quickly the user gets a response back and we know that slow-performing websites, folks are more likely to abandon them. Not that it doesn't matter completely, but personally, I would really love it to see more universally around the industry that frontend is seen as this is the entirety of your product and if you get that wrong, then none of the rest of your architecture, or your infrastructure, or how great your DevOps is matters because you need customers to come to your site and buy things.Corey: It turns out that the relationship between customers coming to your site and buying things and the salaries engineering likes to command is sometimes attenuated in ways that potentially shouldn't be. These are interesting times, and it does help to remember the larger context of the work we do, but honestly, at some point, you wind up thinking about that all the time, and not the thing that you're brought in specifically to fix. These are weird times.Katie: Yes.Corey: Katie, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me about several things. Usually—it's weird. Normally, when someone says thank you for speaking to me about Git, there is no way that isn't a sarcastic—Katie: [laugh].Corey: —statement. But in this case, it is in fact genuine.Katie: Yes, I will bitch about Git until I am blue on the face, so I appreciate you having me on board to talk about it, Corey. Thank you.Corey: Of course. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Katie: They can find me at ohshitgit.com, or as you pointed out, the dangitgit.com swear-free version. As a little plug for the site, we now have had the site translated by volunteers in the community into 28 different languages. So, if English is not your first language, there's a really good chance you'll find a version of OSG—as I like to call it—that is in your language.Corey: Terrific. And we will, of course, put links to these wonderful things in the [show notes 00:39:16]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Katie: Thank you, Corey. It's been lovely to reconnect, and gosh, look at where we are now compared to where we were almost five years ago.Corey: I know. It's amazing how the world works.Katie: Really.Corey: Katie Sylor-Miller, frontend architect at Etsy. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment written in what is clearly your preferred user interface: raw XML.Katie: [laugh].Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

In this episode of the Becoming You podcast, I welcome Katie Wilkinson, a quantum business and wealth coach who guides women to consciously manifest, collapse time, and create unrealistic wealth and business success while defying logic. Listen in as we talk about manifestation and the Law of Attraction! What do you do for a living and how old are you? Katie: I'm 22 and I'm from Melbourne, Australia. I am a manifestation, quantum, and business coach. I help people tap into the infinite realm of the quantum, defy logic, collapse time intentionally, and quantum leap into that next level so you can have all the wealth, abundance, and freedom that you have ever desired. What are some common misconceptions about the Law of Attraction? Katie: The Law of Attraction basically states that like attracts like. It is a natural, universal, immutable law. A lot of people discover this law and can't wait to incorporate it into their lives; but, manifestation doesn't just happen the moment that you realize it. Time is just a construct. What is and will be is already here. Manifestation has been operating your whole life, since the day you were born. The difference is, now you're doing it consciously or intentionally. How would you coach a client who believes that, if they “fail” to manifest what they desire, they are just doing it “wrong” or not working hard enough? Katie: We're so used to hustling culture; but, in the context of manifestation, the Universe doesn't care how hard you work. When I'm trying to materialize something, it's not my effort that materializes it. As long as you're in energetic alignment, you will magnetize the specific desire into your reality. We do things because we want to; because we love it; because it's our passion. I'm not taking action to “get” there. I'm taking action because I'm already there. It's energy first; then, take action from that energetic state. What does it mean to “collapse time”? Katie: The first thing to know is that, you cannot collapse time if you live in a realm that has time. Time literally is a construct. Time doesn't exist. Why? Because the only thing that exists is this moment. The infinite now. The past is just a memory. The future doesn't exist because tomorrow never, ever comes. Once you realize all of this, you're able to go beyond time, and then you'll be able to “manipulate” time in the physical world. How can you practically become an energetic match to your dream if you don't know everything that your subconscious is doing to make you think or act contrary to that dream? Katie: It's just a decision. We live in a world of logic, science, and constructs; but, there are no rules in the quantum world. The moment you try to put rules in place, you limit yourself. You don't have to meditate or be high-vibe all day. It's purely a decision to embrace that time is a construct and embody the ideal you have for yourself. How do you start kids young with all of this? Katie: It starts with the younger generations. If we can help them break constructs and step out of the old paradigm, life is going to become a much better place. The reason I have so much knowledge of this is because my parents did and I grew up living it. It's not so much what you consciously do, but what you subconsciously show them. Children don't learn so much from what you say, but from what you do. They don't need to learn about quantum, but to remember it. They were born with no conception of time and structures of any kind. Our role is just to help them stay tapped into that place. Learn more about Katie WIlkinson: Her podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/abundant-attraction/id1508819817  Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katie.wilkinsonn  Her Quantum Attraction masterclass: https://sso.teachable.com/secure/641356/checkout/3067224/quantum-attraction-masterclass

Katie Chin is a celebrity chef, award-winning cookbook author, spokesperson, food blogger and the Culinary Ambassador to the National Pediatric Cancer Foundation. Katie has had a cooking show called “Double Happiness” with her mother Leeann, has appeared on TV shows like “The Real” and “The Today Show,” and written five cookbooks including her latest — “Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook” filled with internationally-inspired recipes your friends and family will love.    Read more about Katie Chin. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with Katie Chin, a celebrity chef award-winning cookbook, author spokesperson, food blogger, and the culinary ambassador to the National Pediatric Cancer Foundation. Katie has had a cooking show called "Double Happiness" with her mother Leeann, has appeared on TV shows like "The Real" and "The Today Show" and written five cookbooks, including her latest "Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook" filled with internationally inspired recipes your family and friends will love. So please welcome to the show Katie Chin. Katie: Hi everyone. Passionistas: Thanks so much for being here today, Katie, we're thrilled to have you. What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Katie: The one thing I'm most passionate about is honoring my mother's culinary legacy, because everything I know about life in cooking, I learned in the kitchen from her. Passionistas: Talk about how you came to that place, where you wanted to honor her legacy through food. Katie: We have to go all the way back to 1956. When my mother immigrated from China, from Guan Jo China, to Minneapolis, Minnesota of all places, she didn't speak any English. She was making 50 cents an hour as a senior. But she always loved to cook. She couldn't even find fresh ginger at the market at the time, but she improvised. She grew bok choy in our garden and somehow whipped up these gourmet Chinese stir fries. Even though our family had no money. One day, she decided to throw a luncheon for some sewing clients in the 1970s. And they were blown away by her cuisine because back in the day, they only had to chop suey each domain and they had never tasted authentic Chinese cooking. So, they encouraged her to start teaching classes to cater. And one thing led to another, she became very popular as a caterer, but bear in mind, she didn't even have a car. She had to take the bus. Okay. But her popularity continued to soar. And one day she hooked up with a socialite and the socialite wanted to open a restaurant with my mother. So, the socialite happened to be friends with the owner of the Minnesota twins and the owner of the Minnesota twins was friends with Sean Connery. What like that's crazy. So, what happened is Robert Redford was in town, directing ordinary people in Minneapolis and Sean Connery came to visit. And somebody threw a party and my mom was catering it. So, both Robert Redford and Sean Connery were at this party and I served them dumplings. Okay. I was a little girl, but I served the dump legs and my knees were buckling and I'm like, ah, anyway, Sean Connery decides to invest in my mom's restaurant too, which is unbelievable right in Minneapolis. Oh my God. And so, once word got out that Sean Connery w seven was investing in my mom's restaurant. There were lines around the block and it was quite a quite elegant restaurant. She opened more and more restaurants. Now I'm in high school at the time. And I barely saw my mom. She literally was sleeping on the cats. She worked so hard, but she opened more restaurants and more restaurants. And by the late eighties, my mother had over 30 years. So general mills, uh, bought my mother's company and made her head of this division, this restaurant division at general mills. Now bear in mind. My mother never even went to high school and had been making 50 cents an hour as a senior. So, it was a remarkable story, really, for anybody, any woman, any minority, but really anyone with a dream, but she was also quite philanthropic. She served on several boards. She was on the board of the Minnesota Vikings and the Minnesota twins, but had never even been to a game. She spoke on the steps of the white house. She met the Clintons, just unbelievable, but she became this huge star. Anyway, she ended up buying it back cause she didn't like what they were doing to her food. And she went on to create a chain with over 50 locations, which still exists. Our family's not affiliated anymore, but it's called Leeann Chin. Okay. So, I grew up working in my mom's catering business in our tiny basement in Minnesota. And while all the other kids for ice skating or at the mall, we were frying chicken pieces gritting our teeth, but we knew something magical was happening to her. I just vowed to never work in the food business and to get the hell out of Minnesota, it was freezing cold, no offense to Norwegians or Swedish people, but there was, it was not diverse at the time. We were like the only Asian family for miles. So anyway, I left, I went to school in Boston. You guys, I went to BU actually, and then I moved to LA and worked in the entertainment industry for 14 years. And I was just so busy if I had forgotten how to cook. And while I thought I was making my mother proud. I had actually done the opposite because I had forgotten how to cook. And I think because in so many Chinese American families, you're supposed to become a doctor, a lawyer, a professor, and all my siblings are those things. And I did something that was so radically different. It forced me to work even harder to be successful. So, they wouldn't worry about me, even though they had no idea what I did. So anyway, long story short, I decided to throw a dinner party one night. I kept calling my mom asking her questions because I forgot how to do everything. And she was like, this is ridiculous. So, she got on a plane with frozen lemon chicken. She showed up on my doorstep. She cooked the whole meal, but she let everyone think that I had cooked it because she was just that kind of mom. So meanwhile, she opened my fridge and found only champagne and yogurt, completely mortified. And she set out to teach me how to cook again. So, she kept flying to LA and teaching me and my friends how to cook. And they're like, oh my God, you guys make this look so easy. You should do a book together. And I was like, we should do a book together. So, I got us a book deal, but then I realized that I was lacking. Passion and meaning in my life, even though my career was very good to me, I was in a very unhappy marriage. So, I just decided to completely change my life. And I quit my job as a senior VP at Fox. And I left my husband on the same month. Now I don't recommend doing all those things in one month's time, but first of all, I didn't have kids. So, I felt like I had the luxury to do so. And I also felt like, if not now, then when like life is social. So, I just did a complete 180 and she and I came together. We did the book together. We had a catering business together called double happiness. We had a show on PBS together called double happiness as well, which was a mother daughter cultural cooking show, but she hated to be on TV. So, she really focused on the cooking. So, I had to do most of the talking, so I'd go. Okay. So, if you don't have Asian hot sauce, you could use Mexican hot sauce right now and she'd go. No. So she was hilarious without trying to be hilarious. She was totally the straight man, but so funny and charming because of it. But anyway, we had lots of wonderful culinary adventures together, going to China for the food network and going on the today show a bunch of times it was truly a gift because finally coming together as adults, she opened up to me and told me a lot about her life in China and all of the hardships she endured. Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your entertainment industry career. What did you do? And did you have a passion for it in the beginning? Katie: I just fell into it. I wanted to move to New York city and work in advertising like that girl. That was my dream. I wanted to be Marla Thomas, but what happened is I was, my boyfriend went to school at brown. So, I was working at a radio station and Providence, and the Warner brothers rep walked in. And we started chatting and being from Minneapolis, I didn't know anything about the entertainment industry. So, he was like, oh yeah, I represent Warner brothers and bubble lives. Like, why don't you comment for me? And I'm like, what people get paid to do that. So anyway, I was the on-campus rep for Warner brothers, and then I moved to LA and I do, you know, Nancy Kirkpatrick, Amy? Yes. Yeah. So Nancy was my boss when I worked for Warner brothers in college. And then she got me a job at a PR firm called climate Feldman, which became climate and white. So, I worked in PR when I first moved to LA, but then I realized PR wasn't really, for me, I'm more of a promotions person. So, then I went to Orion and I was a consultant, but I didn't drive to take [the bus and cabs and I lied and said, I could drive. You do what you gotta do. So then from a Ryan, I went to Disney. And then I was a manager of national promotions, and then I set up a college internship program, much like the one I participated in at Warner brothers for Disney flew all over the country, hiring interns. What a great job when you're like 25. Oh my God. So much fun. Then I got promoted and worked in national promotions at Disney. Then I left and went to Fox when I was a director of TV promotions. There. Then I got promoted. Well, see, I never wanted to stay in it. I didn't ever want, I didn't want it to move to New York. I didn't want to stay in LA and I'm on my third marriage. My life is an open book. I'm just going to tell you everything. So it was, I got married when I was 23, which is really idiotic and then he was gay. So we got divorced obviously. And so, I was going to move to New York, but I was just kept getting promoted and I'm like, why don't I keep getting promoted anyway. So, then I became a senior VP of synergy. When I was like 29. And then I ended up moving back to Minneapolis to run my mom's company for a year, which was a mistake. I won't go into that, but I came back and where she worked at universal rose had a promotion there. Then I went to an agency. Then I went back to Fox and that was my last studio job. Passionistas: So you must've been ready for a change when that moment came in your life, because those are exhausting jobs. None of those jobs are nine to five jobs. Katie: It's one thing. If you're very passionate about your career and you have this incredible, uh, stress in your life, but when you feel dispassionate and there's that incredible stress, it really is harmful to your body, your mind, body, and soul. And I felt like it just wasn't worth it. It just, it was very hard to face the studio. Exactly. Chairman of the studio, the unbelievable pressure that you're under people don't realize you guys do. And that feeling in your pit of your stomach. So, I was just like, I just saw this as like a chance to escape. I really felt like I needed to escape my life, but being like the good Chinese American girl, that I was, everything looked perfect on paper that was really living a lie because I wasn't feeling passionate about my career, but then also was not happy in my marriage. So, I just feel so lucky that a lot of people don't have the luxury to escape their circumstances. Passionistas: Let's talk about that moment where your mom flew out and helped you with the party. What did that mean to you that she did that. And how did that really start to trigger this renewed interest in food? Katie: I was surprised that she did it, but then she was so amazing in that way. Like it was amusing to me that she did it and I of course wanted to bring her out into the dining room. She was, and it was about saving face is very important in Chinese culture. And I think she was just like, I don't want them to think that you can't cook. So, you just do that. I would have stay back here. A lot of Chinese people express their love in interesting ways, non-Western way. If I did well in school, she would make a special dish. You would get a whole steamed fish and black bean sauce. If I came home with all BS, I get pork. Tell me if I got a promotion at work, she would, her secretary would send me a product purse typed by the secretary to Katie, from mom. Congratulations. It was no love. Proud of you. Love you anything. So very subtle actions of love. So ,coming out to do that was an expression of love. My renewed interest in cooking really came more from at first it was my business acumen because my friends were reacting to this. You guys are such a cute team. You make such a great team. You two together, you could really do some great stuff together. You should do a book. You know what I'm saying? I started to see a mother daughter culinary brand. That's the first thing I saw it, wasn't conscious to me. Wow. I can really now get to know my mom. I was like, Ooh, this is cool. This is like a giant big mound of putty and I'm going to shape it and I'm going to build this brand. It's going to be great. So, in the beginning, I wasn't really that into the food part. I was like front of the house. I'm going to get us gigs on TV. I'm going to develop a series. And so what ended up happening is my mother was doing most of the work and I was the front man. And so, this went on for a while and my mother was very wise and she, after we had our catering business for a couple of years, she announced that she was going to Europe with her friend, Denise for three months. But we had all these catering gigs lined up and I was like, what? Huh? What are you talking about about it? So, she left me to my own devices cause she knew it was the only way I was gonna. So, I figured it out and I added some things. Like I modernize some of the recipes and then she came back with, she didn't like it because I changed a couple of things that we got it. We only had two fights because she passed away. About 13 years ago. One was, I changed an at a mommy recipe and I used to Haney instead of peanut butter, she got mad and drove away. Very passive, aggressive. Didn't really say anything. She's like Chinese peanut butter always best gets in the car. Yeah. Another time right before we went on the today show for the first time with Ann Curry for Chinese New Year. So, it's customary to serve a whole fish to symbolize abundance because the word for abundance in Chinese is in hominine abundance means fishermen's abundance, but also a whole chicken with the beak and the tail, the head in the beacon, the tail to symbolize unity, family unity, and a favorable started finish. So, my moms, you have to have a whole chicken on the set. Mother, we cannot show a whole chicken with the head and the feed and everything on national television. And then she, we were staying with my sister at San Francisco and I'll never forget. She slammed… my mother never slammed the door. Like she was just raised in such a way that she wasn't allowed to scream or be aggressive or violent in any way, but she slammed the door. I slammed the door. And then my sister Jeanie was like, and I know what she was thinking. She was like, how could I have raised such a white daughter, such a why low. That means that white ghost, that's a derogatory term against white people. How could I have raised such a white daughter in her mind? Sure. That's what she was thinking. Anyway, I went out because we got on the conference call with the producer and I was like, I'm just wondering, we typically show a whole chicken and the producers. We cannot show that on national television. And I wasn't like, yeah, I won or anything like that. I was like, in my heart, I knew I was right. So, it was just interesting dynamic, but it was for the most part, very respectful. And like I said, the biggest gift is in those quiet moments when we were cooking together, she would open up and talk to me more like a friend. And tell me about my God being in an arranged marriage, meeting your husband 10 minutes before you get married to them. So many crazy things that happened to her. Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your first television show together. Katie: It was called "Double Happiness." it was on PBS and because of my marketing background, I, and I just wanted to, you know, say this because a lot of people, particularly when they decide to begin, become an entrepreneur and to pivot and try something new, it's scary. They don't know how they don't know what to do, where to turn. And I think you just have to grow some balls sometimes and just ask for things. And then what's the worst thing that can happen. A person rejects you or they say, no, you're not going to die. You just move on. So, I was like trying to figure out the best distribution channel for us. We had pitched Food Network, they passed. They didn't think a Asian show would fly, which I think is ridiculous. But I was like, PBS seems like. Starting point. So, I just did some research and I found a producer based in Hawaii on the internet. She had produced a Roy Yamaguchi show and Charlie Trotter show. So, I just found her number and called her up and I was like, Hey, my name's Katie. My mom was his famous chef owned a restaurant chain. I'm coming to Hawaii. Do you want to get together for coffee? And she said, yes. So sometimes it's as simple as that. So, I think sometimes just the stars aligned. Oprah said luck is when preparation meets opportunity. And I think it is so true. So anyway, she had gotten Kikkoman to fund Roy Yamaguchi. She still had a contact there. So, they happened to have money left in their budget. They needed to spend. So, this rarely happens in a life, but we basically made the phone call and had the funding. In two weeks. We worked closely together. We shot 13 episodes in 10 days, time in Hawaii, which was fantastic. And it was challenging because I had never done TV before. And as, as you guys know, like getting up and doing a PowerPoint presentation for a bunch of executives is one. Being on television with your mom who doesn't like to say anything is another thing. I actually tricked my mom and forced her to train with my acting coach, but I told her we were going to get manicures and we pulled up to his house. She's like, where are we? I go, we're not getting manicures. We're trading with my, I take killers. So, we go and he was adorable. My acting coach was a lot like Billy crystal, like his personality, very warm and loving and so funny, but we're working with him and he's like, okay, Leanne. So, you know, what you're making right now is three ingredients. So, you can't keep your head down. It's a pretty easy recipe. You got to look up, you got to look up. Okay. And then as I've mentioned, my mother never really touched me or said, I love you. We just, she wasn't raised to hug. So, at the end of our first trial segment, he was like, yeah, got to put your arm around your daughter. At the end of the sec, she looked at me, she goes, do I have it? It was challenging for me and learning how to do TV. Isn't really something you can practice. You can try, you can work with a media coach, particularly live TV. You can't get better at it unless you're actually doing it. So, I'll say it was hard in the beginning and then we had a blast doing it. And honestly, cause I'm working on the solo show. I hadn't looked at any of the footage because it's just too painful. So, I'm planning to incorporate some of it. I've been watching some of the clips. This was years ago. We did this in 2004. It's been many years, but it's very difficult to watch and not get emotional. Passionistas: [We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Katie Chin. Check out her blog filled with delicious recipes and get a copy of her latest book "Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook" at chefkatiechin.com. And look for Katie during the 2021 Passionistas Project Women's Equality Summit being held virtually on August 20th through August 22nd. Katie is taking part in the AAPI panel called Kitchen Table Talk and the AAPI Community on Sunday, August 22nd at 2:00 PM. Pacific 5:00 PM Eastern. Later that evening, we will present The Passionistas Persist Awards to Margaret Cho and Dr. Jane Goodall. Our producing partner, Selena Luna will have an intimate conversation with Margaret Cho and we'll chat with our hero, Dr. Jane Goodall. For details, go to ThePassionistasProject.com/2021summit. Now here's more of our interview with Katie. You've written five cookbooks. So, tell us a little bit about where you draw inspiration from when you're writing a cookbook and what that process is like. Katie: The first book I did with my mom and all honesty. She did most of it because of my, I told you I was still actually working at box and then she had passed away. So, I had to really not rely on her platform or her name. And so, the next book I did was 300 best rice cooker recipes. And I had to test 300 recipes in different rice cookers. So, I had all these different testers coming in and out. What I draw my inspiration from travel. Cause I've been fortunate. I've traveled to many different countries. Most of my friends happen to be children of immigrants. I think we just birds of a feather. So, I've been so privy to so many wonderful meals cooked for me by my friend's parents. And eating out just pre COVID, obviously, and also pre- I have 13 year old twins now, but so I didn't eat out a lot when they were younger and LA were so, you know, fortunate, cause there's so many awesome restaurants and such a diversity of exciting food and so many different mashups happening. I just try to draw inspiration mainly from my friends and their parents. Also, what I see on TV and I just try. Also, as a mom more recently. So, my most recent cookbook, the Global Flavors cookbook, I think because kids have grown up watching the Food Network, watching Top Chef, making food on TikTok, their parents being able to travel, being able to take their kids to foreign countries. I think today's families in the US have a much more open and sophisticated palette than our generation. And whereas back in the day, if you went to a mini mall, oftentimes you just find pizza and donuts. Now you're likely to find Pokemon or an empanada shop. I just felt like people wanted a resource to replicate some of those flavors at home in an easy way, not requiring a million trips to an ethnic market using their everyday pots and pants. So, I'm always, I love to eat. I'm here in Vegas right now. Passionistas: You did a special for the Food Network and then you traveled to China with your mom. Can you tell us about that experience and what was it like going there with her and experiencing that? Katie: It was really awesome to be able to go back to not only been to China a couple of times, but wow. To meet her family and because of the cultural revolution, you know, she didn't see her family for 30 years. So, I can't speak Chinese, which made it challenging obviously. And they would just start laughing at me and I know enough to say hello, how are you? Nice to meet you. But they would just point at me and laugh at me, but this is one of the most memorable parts of the trip. So, we were tending to celebrate my mother's birthday at her brother's apartment and her family in particular. And I think this is quite common in China. The purpose of sitting down to eat is to eat, not to speak. Like, you're not like having conversations. You're just eating the point is to eat, not to make like chat. So, the producer who happened to be Chinese American, she was like, okay. And there's like a whole pig. They're like, it's like a big, huge banquet of food. And there's probably 14 of us around the table. She said, it's really important that when the cameras start rolling, but you guys are really gregarious talking about the food, cooking your glasses. So, I go over to my mom. I'm like, mom, they want us to sip of a, I go, can you tell them to do that? And she goes, oh, they're not going to do that. I was like, okay. So, I go back to the producer. I'm like, you really not are equipped. They're not capable of doing that. She was like, okay, that's fine. But if they can just look excited and clink their glasses without talking, you do the toast, they click their glasses and then they dig into the food gregarious. I'm like, okay, I think they can handle it. My mom tells them that. Between how to sign. I'm like, okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're here to celebrate somebody translating. And then I do the toast and then they all sit there like this. Cause you can you imagine how bizarre and foreign all these cameras are rolling. And they're just like that. So that was pretty funny. Then we went to the world's largest floating Dim Sum restaurant it's called Jumbo in Hong Kong. And we're back in the kitchen with the dumpling master. He's teaching me how to make the delicate fold on the hard gal in the kitchen was rolling. He's teaching me, my mom, mom says, why are you so slow? But it was always out of love. That was like, thanks mom, but so wonderful. Full to be there with her. And also, again, just being there, she told me a story while we were there. That after world war II, the Japanese mafia were still threatening. A lot of the neighborhoods there that if they didn't get, get paid off, they would bomb different communities. So, my mother's father owned a grocery store. She was 12 at the time and my mother was a tomboy. So, she would deliver 50 pound bags of rice in the back of her bike. She was really a master of the Abacus. So, she had all these skills, but because she was like a tomboy, she had the least value. So the Japanese threatened to bomb and I guess her family and a bunch of the neighbors decided to leave just in case they bombed, but they didn't tell my mom. So, my mom came home from school and realized everyone had evacuated except for a couple of the employees. And I said, oh, the family decided to go to another village in case the Japanese bomb. And she realized in that moment that she had been left behind to die, but they needed somebody to stay behind just in case they didn't. So, she was there, she told me, eating dinner with the employees by candlelight she'd play Mahjong with them. And the day she would restock the inventory of the canned goods, things like that. And then three weeks later, her family came back, but they didn't even acknowledge what happened. She woke up and she said, her mom just said, get your other sisters ready for school again. So, she did that. But in that moment, she realized her life had no value in the family. And I think that's what really motivated her to work hard, to not look back to overcome. And so, her way, her survival system was all about push your feelings down, move forward and be efficient. So, we all inherited a bit of that, but through therapy, my brothers and sisters,because that's not healthy either, but she did say because my father was also emotionally abusive. If your daddy had been a supportive husband, I probably would never have done all these, all of these things because she was raised to be a contented housewife and just cook and clean and raise children. But I think that's just who she was as well. Like glass half full. I'm just gonna look at this as a gift, like in a way I would never have done all of this. He was the person that he was. Passionistas: What did you personally take away from hearing that story? Did it affect you moving forward? Katie: I think I had a lot more, I think respect for my mother, even though I was a full adult by that time, I think I, I had to grow up a little bit too, instead of relying on her, to do everything, spending so much time with her during this period and learning about that. Cause she was a person that never complained. She just never complained about it. And she rarely had a bad thing to say about people, too. I think she really taught me also coming out of the entertainment industry, the gossipy and complainy, it's both those things. So, I think it really helped me to understand her a little bit more. Like when I got divorced second time, you know, she picked me up from the airport, you know, and I was crying and she was like, you know, you should really not cry so much. It's inefficient. I was like inefficient, but I realized she couldn't help. It that's, she would never have survived unless she had that attitude. So, I try to have some compassion for that, but also important for me to break the cycle for my own children, because I don't want my daughter to think it's okay to go around life, not crying cause it's inefficient. Right? The not complaining part. That's something I'm really trying to it's not doing successfully that way. Passionistas: So speaking of your, your children and especially your daughter, you've carried on the tradition of filming, cooking shows with relatives. So, tell us about what you did during the pandemic with your daughter. Katie: So I have a catering business called Wok Star Catering, and I obviously had to pivot and we have a home in Lake Arrowhead. So, we decided to skip town for about seven months. So, when it started, I was so bored cause I had to get bored easily. I just thought, oh, why don't we do a live streaming cooking show? I had done a few here and there with some friends. I mean, she's pretty, gung-ho about things, so she's okay. And it just started out something to do and something to get some friends involved and have guests on the show via Zoom. And so, we started doing it three times a week, and then we got sponsors. Then we got all these people interested in being on the show and it became a thing and we have a pretty loyal following and we have friends helping us out, like all him straight. And my brother now is actually part of the crew, too. So, it just became so fun for her and I did it to do together. And what was so beautiful for me was to watch her evolution being on camera because she's a dancer. So, she's used to performing, but in the beginning, she was pretty shy and then she just, I don't know, large and in charge and. My husband just pointed out in the show with your mom, she would criticize you and correct you the whole show. And now my daughter does that to me. So, I just can't get your break. I get it. I got it for both EDS because Beck is very like type a, I think she'll be a producer. Not necessarily like on-camera talent. She's just very, don't forget to do this, mommy. And don't forget to do that. Mommy, you didn't add the soy sauce. Talk about the giveaways. It's been really fun because she now takes charge. Like I intentionally try to remember during the show to just turn it over to her, Becca, take it away, tell everybody what to do next. And I also think this generation of kids doing TikTok and growing up, being on YouTube, they're not as self-conscious about being on camera has been really great. And she has all these fans, like people just want to see Baca. This complete stranger was like the nibbler, Becca is the nibbler. Cause she's always taking bites of food. She doesn't realize she's doing it. This has become a thing, hashtag the nibbler. And we actually have merchandise that says Hashi, the nibbler that we're selling and also a Becca rocks. That's been just so really a lot of fun and adorable to do. And then since then she joins me when I do these monthly TV segments for bloom TV, for national pediatric cancer. So, we cook along with a pediatric cancer warrior along with the host of the show. And also trying to teach her about philanthropy [and it's just a great way to do it. And also to build her confidence. Passionistas: Do you think you have a particular trait that has helped you succeed? Katie: My friends have said this. I do think I have.  like, I, I really try to see the good in people and I really try to have fun. And I think that what has really been helpful to me are my friendships with other women. And the network of women that I felt because a favorite quote of mine is for every successful female entrepreneur entrepreneurs, there's five other successful female entrepreneurs that have her back. And I think that there's a stereotype of successful women being bitches and too aggressive. And I've found that to be not the case, maybe once in a blue moon, but most of the women that I encounter that are entrepreneurs or even in my career, really just try to help each other out. So ,during COVID, what happened is a friend of mine and I, she runs a PR firm. We decided to start a virtual women's game night and it was just like a handful of us. So, we were playing Taboo on Zoom, but all of a sudden this magical thing happened more and more women started to join this chat. And very few of them actually played the game. It became a drawing game, but it became this community of women in this chat, sharing advice, lifting each other. Cheerleading. Like I would see something, this might she's on the chat. She's a documentarian just saw that she was doing a fireside chat. I put it in the chat. Then everybody started to do that for each other political commentary. Where are we on my eyebrows plug? Like everything under the sun. And as a result, I can't tell you how many of these women have gone on each other's podcasts, become friends. Lifting each other up. And we finally, and so many of them hadn't actually met in person. We finally had to get together two weeks ago, you guys are going to have to join. We hired a DJ, we dance for five hours straight. It was so phenomenal, but the whole point wasn't to let's network and see what business comes of it. But it just all happened so organically in that. And I think I'm just really proud of how did that I didn't set out to, for that to happen, but it did happen and it continues to grow and it's just been so fulfilling for me. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Katie Chin. Check out her blog, filled with delicious recipes and get a copy of her latest book "Katie Chin's Global Family Cookbook" at chefkatiechin.com. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.Com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passion. Sign up for our mailing list and get 10% off your first purchase. And get your tickets now for the 2021 Passionistas Project Women's Equality Summit featuring Katie Chin on the Kitchen Table Talk in the AAPI Community panel on Sunday, August 22nd [00:34:00] at 2:00 PM/pacific 5:00 PM and The Passionistas Persist Awards featuring Margaret Cho and Dr. Jane Goodall on Sunday, August 22nd at 5:00 PM/pacific 8:00 PM. Eastern. For details, go to the ThePassionistasProject.com/2021Summit. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

Hiring Business Lawyers With Katie Richards Have you ever put yourself in a position where you're thinking, should I do that? Should I not do that? It might not even be something that you've done legally wrong; it might just be a situation where you're having a separation or whatnot, but a lot of the time, you can find yourself in hot water if you have the right relationship set up. Today, we've got Katie Richards from Law on Earth, and she's going to be talking to us about why and when you should hire a business lawyer. What is the right time in business to do that? When should you set up these relationships? She'll shed some light and remove some fear from everything legal in business. Learn more about hiring a business lawyer at dorksdelivered.com.au Does every small business need a lawyer? Katie: I think it depends on what phase of the business they're going through at the time. I would always suggest that before someone gets into business, have a chat with a lawyer first so they understand what legal needs they're going to have coming up over the life of the business. Katie: You get a bit of a strategy in place because it's not just your business planning that's important. You have to understand what legal risks happen at the beginning, while you're running the company, and then also on exit so you can be ready for them and then you'll be less likely to need lawyers along the way if you already know what to watch out for. A lot of the time, businesses start because you're really passionate about the work that you do. It could be that you're a labourer, an accountant, etc. A lot of the time, you start in the trenches doing that sort of work and you jump in because you're good at what you do. That can obviously cause some conflict if you're doing exactly the same thing as when you had an employer.  When should you hire a business lawyer? Are you better off speaking to someone to make sure you're doing things right? Or is it just when you've started turning over some dollars? When should one really start looking towards consulting a business lawyer? Solicitor Before Accountant Katie: I think it's actually before that. It's right at the beginning when you actually have a chat with an accountant because you need to work out what kind of structure you should be setting up before you actually go and set the business up. That's important because the structure comes down to how much risk is going to be on you personally. How can a business lawyer help you? Katie: If you're set up as a sole trader, you could have issues such as something going terribly wrong in your business, especially if it's your first business. If you don't really understand how businesses operate, you could have your house on the line. You could lose your car, all of your assets, and all of your savings because you are personally liable as a sole trader, whereas generally, people will wait for a while before they set up a company down the track. Katie: There also could be taxation issues if you do that. If you've got some potential contracts already set up, you're probably better off going down the company path from the start. You know that the revenue amount is likely to be a lot higher. The right time to talk to someone about that is actually before you start trading and then you've got a bit of a road map and you understand why. Video Sessions With Business Lawyers in Brisbane Katie: At Law on Earth, we've actually done a lot of free guides around this so that people can just go and have a look at them, get an understanding around what all the different options are in terms of the structures, think about what would actually suit their lifestyle not only now, but also in the future. Katie: Think three, four, or five years ahead because if you set up as a sole trader now, you're going to be paying tax through the roof once you get over a certain financial amount. No one in their right mind is going to want to set up a business if it's not generating at least a decent amount of money that exceeds what you were doing as an employee, unless you're only doing it as a hobby or for some kind of lifestyle benefit, because there is a lot of pain that comes with setting up and running businesses. Katie: You must have a good reason why you want to put yourself through that. Otherwise, sometimes it actually is easier just to remain an employee, doing what you love. I couldn't agree more. Some employees think that their employers are bringing in double or triple of what they earn, and then they wonder about jumping out on their own without thinking about any of the nitty-gritty and the mechanics that go into the infrastructure that supports the business. You're right: you want to be able to earn a little bit more money or just be a side hustle or a lifestyle choice. That obviously changes the structure. If you're going to start a business, first, make sure that you're passionate about doing whatever you're going to be doing because you're going to be doing a lot of it. Second, make sure you're able to do that with enough time to be able to do all the other admin stuff that comes with it. Don't think you'll get to do 80-hour weeks that are going to be billable to clients. On top of that, probably talk to a solicitor before you talk to an accountant. Katie: It really comes down to that risk piece. What we tend to find in the last couple of days through the platform at Law on Earth is people who are passionate about a social cause want to set up a business around it. They're trying to work out whether to set up a charity, a social enterprise, for-profit or not for profit. It all comes down to how far you're prepared to take that social cause. Katie: There's a lot to think about. At that stage, you also have to think about not just the business, but what about the people around you? If you have a family, what are you prepared to put them through when you're setting up this business? Are you even going to bring them in down the track? If that's the case, then you're going to be employing people within the business. Again, it's probably better to do that for a company. Katie: The conversation around trusts will come up as well. You might have some kids at home and your wife or husband may not be working. You might want to get money by the business to them in the most cost-effective way.  How much does a business attorney cost? Katie: You'd have an initial chat with your accountant and your lawyer around those ideas. People are using just like a 20-minute advice session on our platform just to ask those kinds of questions. It's only going to cost them $150 to answer all of those questions before they even think through the next part of their strategy. It's not prohibitive. That's pretty much nothing in the scheme of things. That is going to protect you because different opportunities or things can come up. There are always bumps along the road of business, and you can have situations where you're being sued depending on the type of work that you're doing or having partnerships that go south. Even if you are set up as a sole trader, for instance, and you invest a little bit too much time in the business and the business is going really well.  This sounds terrible, but if you look at Melinda Gates, she is one of the best investors in the world. You need to be very careful. If a break-up does happen in your personal life, that can affect your business life and ongoing time. When you do engage, you spend $150, you get a little bit more visibility and insights and confidence in what you'd be doing with your business. How often should you talk to a business lawyer? What are normally the touchpoints with small business lawyers? Is it something that you engage with clients every three months, or is it something that you set up the relationship and then when the shit hits the fan, so to speak, you then start talking or what happens? Katie: I think it depends on the person who's setting up the business and what their circumstances are. The way that I deal with clients is that I'll have that initial chat with them. I'll give them a list and priorities as to what they should do and how soon they should get them done and at what stage of the business they'll think about activating the next step. Katie: That way, it gives them the tools that they need to actually go away and be in control of what they're doing. We have stuff in the learning centre that will help them do that. As they reach those little milestones in their business, they know what to do and what to watch out for. That just makes it a lot easier. It takes a lot of the anxiety away from the business.  Katie: A lot of my clients will actually Zoom me once a month and just ask me and do another 20-minute session and say what they've done and ask me to have a look over. They can actually watch me read into contracts that they've prepared themselves, just keeping them out of any risk so that they don't have to lie awake at night because they know they've already covered their bombs and then they can take that next step a little bit more confidently. Katie: There may be someone who's just really slow to get a bit of traction. If that's the case, they don't have to push themselves ahead at any rate to actually go and get more legal advice. It's only as they need it. But as they grow, you'll tend to find the need will pop up more often. Katie: It really comes down to the stage of growth and how risk-averse that business owner is. There are some people that will do all these documents, go forth and conquer—and they will just call me when they're in trouble. Katie: No matter how good of a business owner you are, things just pop up in business and you can't avoid it. If you can at least recognise when an issue is coming up, jump on it straight away and get some advice on what you should do next. You can probably go forward and just sell back and look after yourself potentially.  Katie: You just need to find out what the laws are around it and get a bit of a commercial understanding of what you can do and what repercussions there are for each of those different options—what are the repercussions now and what we're going to be the repercussions, say, two or three years time. If you do take this path, how is that going to impact the relationship you have with all the business owners? How will that affect me on a reputation level? Be Proactive, Not Reactive You brought up a couple of really good points. Do you find that business owners who are looking for business lawyers particularly in Brisbane are more proactive or reactive when it comes to these situations? Katie: I think they have been quite reactive for a long time, and I believe they're starting to get a bit more proactive. Maybe that's just the ones that I deal with because we've made it a bit more accessible for them to get little snippets of advice and not cost them a billion dollars for that. Katie: It's easier to be proactive. Like going to the doctor, you don't go, 'I'm not sure if I want to go to the doctor even though I'm sick because it is going to cost me a fortune.' You just go. That's what we've tried to recreate: an ability for people to just grab it as and when they need it so they can be proactive. Katie: But I think a lot of people in the past have been really reactive. The problem is that by the time I actually engage someone to help them with it, the problem is 10 times bigger and you actually could have fixed it for one-tenth of the cost had they gone to you at the very beginning of it before they sort of got into too much of a deep hole. The old adage is 'Save a nickel, spend a dime.' Once you've gone too far, you kind of have to do what you have to do and that can be a big problem for you. There's a business that we were talking with a month and a half ago. He decided to set up his own business and he thought it is going to be great because he loves doing what he does. His boss was fine with him doing that. The clients that his boss had went to him because they enjoyed working with him more, and that caused big problems.  His previous boss sued him, and then he engaged some legal advice. He had to change a whole bunch of stuff around to get everyone happy and ended up having to sell his business to his old boss to keep his boss happy. You've already worked for a whole bunch of stuff and then you've got all this stuff that's taxing on your mind and soul. It's not going to help you very well mentally to be having to do that while already going through the mechanics of setting up a business. Katie: That's actually one of the first things we chat about when we're having that initial strategy session. When talking about the structuring, the first thing I say to them is, 'What did you do before you came up with this business idea?' And then I add, 'Who did you work for? Show me your employment agreement.' Some would say, 'No, it's okay, we all parted on happy terms.' Katie: Stealing their IP and setting up a business in competition with them, they're just not going to be happy. Some employers will pursue it, and some won't. Some will have this ridiculous restraint of trade clause in there, and it'll be for like five years. The court is not going to hold that up, but you have to get advice around it to find out whether it's a reasonable restraint or not and whether it's worth the punt. Correct. He's still in business now but trading underneath a different entity on advice that he got from his lawyer. That would have been easy just to get it at the start, wouldn't it? I think it's a total cost of $150,000. Katie: I know someone else that's had a very similar situation. They're doing really well now, but it was really crushing. You just don't want to be in that situation. Not at all. It's not going to make you feel very good mentally. And that changes your whole game with how you're dealing with clients and giving you that confidence to build up your business. How do you legally protect yourself from risks in business? Do the legal requirements for business and milestones in business vary depending on the business vertical? For instance, hairdressers are dealing with scissors and if they have a slip, someone could get hurt. I'm running an IT business and if something goes wrong, their infrastructure could be down, costing them tens of thousands of dollars an hour or more depending on the business.  How do you protect yourself against things like that? Is that through agreements that you set up with your clients? Set Up a Business Plan  Katie: I think what people really need to be doing at the very beginning is setting up a business plan. Most people put it in a drawer and they don't have a look at it again. That's not useful. You need to actually write some kind of document about all the things that could go wrong in this business and then write out your mitigation. If this happens, what would I do next and then next and then next so that you don't have to worry about those kinds of risks so much because you've thought about it. Have a Business Continuity Plan Katie: Your next step is to look at each of those risks and think about what you can insure and what you can minimise any risk for. How likely is it to happen? If it does happen, like the electricity goes out and you can't run your business, can we jump to another premises so we can keep trading? If not, do we need business continuity insurance in place? Pulling all those ideas together is what we call a business continuity plan. Katie: Continuity is essentially continuing. What kind of plans do we need to put in place so no matter what comes up, we've actually got a Plan B that we can jump to straightaway. How do I train my staff to also know what the Plan B is at any point in time? Katie: If you're on holiday in Hawaii and all of a sudden something goes wrong in the business, you need to know that someone can grab out the continuity plan and have a look at what you would have done if you were here. Katie: Otherwise, if you end up building a business where you're stuck in it and no one else can run it for you, you're going to end up basically buying yourself a job but that's quite high risk. And you don't want to go through the pain of building a business and get to make this great revenue to have it all ripped away from you all of a sudden. Continuity plans are very, very strong to my heart. In the IT space, things are moving into the cloud, and you have to be more and more creative to allow for people's infrastructure to stay up and running when it's not necessarily available in your hands. There's a gun that's pointing at us. If something goes wrong with the client, we have to see how we can make sure to mitigate this risk if Office 365 goes down or if you have a problem with G-Suite applications. We've worked out things here but it's surprising to us and this is why I was asking before about the proactive versus reactive. We talk to business owners and say let's do this but a lot of the time they want to wait until it happens. Then it happens and they're like, 'We need to be up and running now. We can't get the contract out.' Katie: When you're dealing with big clients and if you can show them that if this happens this is what we do, but if that happens that's is what we do, it actually puts you way ahead in their eyes because they know that you have a much better ability to deliver on work, especially when it comes to tender processes. Katie: We've actually gone down the path with Law on Earth to do ISO certification. Even though we don't necessarily need to do that, I want to make sure that no matter what happens, we can be reliable and consistent so that people can keep using us. That was a big ask to actually get someone to come in and actually do all that.  Have a Risk Mitigation Strategy Katie: Risks are really important. If you don't watch the risks in your business, you won't have a business. That can destroy lives and families. That's what it's all about: risk mitigation. Does risk mitigation negate the need for more insurance? You're saying about possibly needing to get different types of insurances. Does it complement or mitigate the risk? Katie: I take it one step further with my businesses. I've got Virtual Legal, my law firm, and then Law on Earth, the software platform. List Down at All of the Risks Katie: What I've done is I looked at all the risks and wrote up a disaster recovery plan as well as a business continuity plan. And then I took that to the insurer and put them on notice on what I've asked them to insure for so there can't be any grey areas as to what risks they had to cover. It actually makes them accountable. Reduce the Risk, Reduce the Insurance Premium Katie: Second, I said, 'I've done all this risk mitigation. I want you to give me a discount on insurance because I've done half of your job for you.' That's actually helpful too because you can get your insurance premiums reduced because I know exactly what risks need to be covered. Katie: When it comes to things like negotiating a contract with someone else, sometimes what people do is they contract out of provisions. If I say, 'We don't want this liability clause in there.' and the business owner is like, 'Oh, yeah, no worries.' because they want the big contract. The problem is if you actually contract out of something that the insurance company then can't use to help you fight that claim, then your insurance sometimes might payout. You must have a think about those kinds of things. Insurance Can Be a Double-Edged Sword Katie: Insurance can be a double-edged sword. If you cut corners, you could end up not getting insurance paid out. I think it's a really good way of knowing the risks, making sure that you've covered up on what you can and that your systems actually back up what you say they're doing. It makes your business more valuable. When you're more repeatable with what you're doing, at least you know what your risks are. At Dorks Delivered, we call our agreements with clients business continuity agreements because we want their business to have uptime. We want IT and technology in their business to be like a utility.  If we tell a client that this is what they need to have in place and they say they're not interested, we put in denial of service agreements. We have them sign off on something saying, 'We're aware that this risk is what we're taking on ourselves,' and they can't come back to us and say this doesn't work. Should you use legal documents or templates available online? There are different documents that you can find online, such as NDAs and employee agreements. Are they worth the digital paper that they're written on? Does your mileage vary if you're just going to get a boilerplate document off the Internet that hasn't been checked over by business lawyers in Brisbane? Katie: It's funny you bring this up because this is my biggest pain point. This is literally the entire reason I set this platform up about three years ago. The problem with templates is that people don't know what's in them. When you actually sign a template or some kind of contract without understanding what's actually in it. Katie: There is no standard contract. It just doesn't exist. You can actually contract out of protective rights you would have had under the law if you had no agreement in place at all. You can actually contract out of different types of rights that can actually be in that agreement.  Katie: What we did was we went through and drafted out all the precedents that you would need for business and then you get a guide that comes along with it and explains in really simple English what every single clause in that agreement actually means so you can understand what you're doing. Katie: Make sure you understand what's in the agreement before you sign it. If you don't understand it, don't sign it because you could really do yourself some damage. That's why at Virtual Legal, we get a lot of the cleanup work from people just using templates they found on the Internet. Sometimes they use American documents, and sometimes they don't even change the names in the contract.  They haven't even read the contracts. Far out. I'm a stickler for reading things. When I got my first credit card in my teenage years, I read the 68-page document that came with it to make sure I understood. That's just a small document about how your information is shared. You've got a fantastic service there to alleviate some of that pain and make sure people are using Australian documents. Most of the software that we use in business or the SaaS platforms come from overseas. We're using these ERP solutions or CRM solutions, and a big sales tactic that I've seen is that they'll say they'll give all the documents that we need for our client relations and everything else, but they're all from America, so they're practically useless unless you're an international business only dealing with America. How does Law on Earth work? We've covered a little bit of information about what Law on Earth does. With $150, what does that entail and how does that work for someone who's looking to get into business or someone who's looking to have a review of their documents if they've got something that's been made by someone else or maybe they need to dust off the documents that they haven't looked at for 10 years. How does the process work for Law on Earth? [add this photo https://d3hh6raz9l4662.cloudfront.net/media/various/homepage-banner.png] Katie: It is really simple. It's a social enterprise that was set up for a social purpose. It's essentially established just to help people. Just go on the platform and set up a free account. Once you've got a free account, you'll get a full dashboard so you can go into the learning centre and have a look at all these different guides that actually teach you what you should look out for, what to do next. Katie: Once you've found a guide that matches your legal situation, you can then work out whether you just go and get the documents in our system. You can just answer a simple question. The system actually does much of the legal work so it'll slot all the right clauses in and then give you that human God that we talked about and then you can read through that. Katie: If that doesn't work for what you wanted practically in the business, go back, unlock the document and then answer the questions again. It will slot different clauses in there. You have complete control over it. You don't necessarily have to get a lawyer if you don't want to get a lawyer, but you have the ability to do that. Katie: We've restructured it recently so even if you get a 6-month subscription, it's unlimited documents so you can use as many documents as you want and the whole 6 months is only $197. Katie: Once you drop down to that, you get your video calls with a lawyer for $97 for 20 minutes. It becomes ridiculously cheap to get a lawyer online.  Katie: Some people do more videos, others do fewer videos and go crazy on the documents and then go and do the business stuff, set up their wills and powers of attorney, and all that stuff. We've got a bunch of people doing their divorces at the moment. Katie: Essentially, a lot of people will actually book their first calls in their sixth month and they'll extend it and then book in a couple of days later. Once they've gone and done their documents, we'll reverse the screen and help them re-drop bits and pieces of it for their situation. I might not hear from them for another five, six, seven weeks. Some people check in every week because it's just easy and affordable for them to do it bit by bit.  It is a fantastic service. You've only been around three years, right? Katie: Yeah, we built it inside Virtual Legal, and we split it off about two years ago and then we actually launched it last July. We have 150 people signing up since August 2020.  Katie: The good thing is that as and when we find other needs or documents that people want, if it's not in there, they just click a button to email us, and we actually draft it and then upload it. You're not going to find any lawyers that'll do that without charging you $2,000 or $3,000. That benefits everyone.  Katie: It helps people with whatever they're dealing with because if they need it, someone else is going to need it at some stage as well. We just have a team of guys here that just jump straight on it. Get free guides to setting up a business in Australia and affordable legal advice. Jump onto Law on Earth! [link to https://lawonearth.com.au/howtos] There's pretty much no reason why every business in Australia shouldn't be jumping on Law on Earth and checking out the work that you do and how it can help their business. I know I'm going to be signing up for an account because it's going to give more visibility and assurance for the times that you might not expect things to go as well as you want them to or at least mitigate some of those risks. Recommended Books: The Hard Thing About Hard Things and Measure What Matters If there's a favourite book that influenced you in business and in being where you are now, what would that be? Katie: There was actually one that I listened to recently. It's called The Hard Thing About Hard Things by Ben Horowitz.  Katie: I really resonated with that because he said that as a CEO, you have to get used to everything being your fault. I thought that sounds like a really negative thing to say, but it's true. You are responsible as the head of the company, whether you are the founder or just the CEO, but you're responsible for making sure that everything runs smoothly.  Katie: If something happened in marketing, you should have had some kind of process in marketing for feedback so you can make sure those things don't happen. If you are not watching what's happening in all the other divisions, even though you're not the one executing on it, it really is your fault. Katie: I think it just puts it back into place. You have to get comfortable with being a bit uncomfortable as a business owner. You can say, 'My job is just to do this bit here' but if you are the person running that business, that's not correct. You are still responsible for the feet up. You just need to make sure reporting back to you is good if you've delegated work out. That comes into play with what you're saying about strategies, making documentation processes, accountability systems, and things like that. I'm going to be checking that on my radar. Katie: Yes, it's downloadable so you can listen to it while you're going for a run. Another is Measure What Matters by John Doerr, and that's all about objective, key results and understanding how to give reporting responsibilities out to your teams so that it can be feedbacked correctly.  I'm going to check out that one.  What is freedom to you? The podcast is called Business Built Freedom. What would you say business freedom is to you?  Katie: For me, freedom is not necessarily having a lot of time on my hands. It's more about being able to actually do what I want to be able to do, even though it's still a lot of work for me to do.  Katie: Virtual Legal runs really well, so I can actually have my freedom but I've gone straight back into the grind with Law on Earth. I'm passionate about it, so I'm happy to spend my time doing that. As and when I find different elements that I can delegate to other people, I can then do that and then I can spend more time thinking. I think freedom really comes down to having just being engaged in what you love and finding ways to start stepping back from it to have thinking time again.  I think I couldn't have said it better myself. I find working in business isn't really working if you're enjoying it. That sounds so cliche. People go on holidays to read books, but if you don't think an editor would go on holidays to read books, I still think they would. If you have enjoyed the podcast, jump across to iTunes. Leave us some love, give us some feedback. Katie: will be jumping into our Facebook group to answer any possible questions that you might have. Stay healthy! Mitigate risks and turn your IT into a utility. Schedule a free consultation or check out the Dollar IT Club for affordable business solutions. [module-379]

The Dark Truth of My Codependency at Work: Sacrificial Helping Part III   As codependents, why do we allow ourselves to work in such toxic work environments?   How does being codependent at work shield me from having to deal with my own sh*t?   How does self-sacrifice serve us? *It doesn't...but it does*   Listen to hear me get real, honest, and real honest in Part III of this series on Codependency & Sacrificial Helping Syndrome. Katie Vernoy, LMFT came on and shared with us what Sacrificial Helping Syndrom is--now I'm getting honest about how and why it came up for me at a previous position. And it's dark. Katie posed multiple questions for all us codependendummies and here are my answers about how I “got off” on helping others, got to avoid dealing with my own sh*t, and how--deep down--I f*cking loved to bend backwards for my clients, colleagues, and bosses--as long as it meant I didn't have to deal with or rely on myself. #codependummy to my core, right?   Thanks for listening!    Be sure to follow me on instagram @therapywithmarissa   Deets on the episode:   Codependency & Sacrificial Helping Syndrome Part III. Katie Vernoy, in her episode that aired May 17, provided us with questions to reflect on our self-sacrfice at work. I'm going to answer those to model to you all: this is how you use this podcast to promote growth and create change.   I start with giving you all more context about my position. All in all, I easily was logging 70-80 hours a week thanks to clients, meetings, travel, and documentation. I also was driving hundreds of miles a week all over Los Angeles and surrounding counties. Back pain, missing time with friends and family, and drowning my internal organs with cortisol from all the stress.    And I did it. I did all that for 2.5 years. Ugh.   Now, Q&A. Write them out as you listen so you can answer them as well.   Why would I allow myself to get in that dynamic? Direct quote from Katie: I had to constantly try harder, be better, help more, do more in order to feel like I was good enough. Part of it was looking at the toxic work environment. The other part was understanding why would I allow myself to get in that dynamic?   I too acknowledge that I was working in a toxic work environment. And now, the real question: Why would I allow myself to get in that dynamic?  I believed that was what I deserved.  I believed that by bending myself backwards as a good employee, it would make me good as a person. Good as a being. I got to relinquish control of my life.  I received your pity.  I loved to be needed. It gave me something to talk about.    What comes up for you while listening?    If you could imagine yourself with a diminished capacity, would you still be lovable and have value?  Direct quote from Katie: Imagine yourself sick, tired, disabled, and sitting on a couch and not able to provide all this help. UNABLE, OLDER, all the things that are capacity will decrease. If you could imagine yourself with a diminished capacity, would you still be lovable and have value?    Other direct quote from Katie: Just being there, sitting there, we are valuable and I think we don't get that message from society if we aren't pretty, thin, perfectly able, helping, sacrificing. If you are having to constantly empathize or understand the other - when the person you serve is way more important than you and everything should be aligned with what they need - if you haven't developed who you are, you are spending your whole time being someone else who can serve.    What comes up for you in response?   Who are you and what are you putting out into the world?  Direct quote from Katie: It's truly knowing who you are separate from other people. If it's just you and no one is asking anything from you - you don't have a role or can't take care of anyone - who are you?  If I had no responsibilities, who am I as an individual, if no one was relying on me in any way, no strong push, what would I be doing?  Katie and I talked about how being needed is intoxicating and I asked what we are to do if we want to get “sober.”  Direct quote from Katie: Take a breath and say it again (If I had no responsibilities, what would I be doing) since there are so many pressures that we internalize those pressures (oh, but i have to remember what). GET TO A VERY BLANK SLATE: What brings me joy? What are my areas of genius? What fills me up and doesn't drain me? WHO WOULD YOU BE IF YOU WERE NOT AFRAID?    Suggestion from Katie: Pause, think, and get clear if and when you are wanting to self-sacrifice or be a helper at work (or anywhere):  Is this toxic?  Is this what I want or what others want for me?  Then build up the resilience to build some limits here.  That's a wrap. Sacrificial Helping Syndrome Part III. Katie has a special offer for $150 a package with her. Link below!     Thank you for listening. I hope you like the Marianne Williamson poem!   www.codependummy.com  Katie's offer: http://bit.ly/OwnYourCareer-Codependummy

In March of 2020, just as Katie Peterson's first year of law school was nearing its close, everything changed. As Katie rounds out a full year of remote law school, she and ALPS Claims Attorney Martha Amrine reflect on how 2020 upended long-held law school traditions and created new ones. They talk about what aspects of that transition were hard, what current law students might be missing out on, and the unanticipated ways that the graduates of ‘virtual law school' may ultimately change the practice of law for the better. Katie Peterson is a Class of 2022 JD Candidate at the American University Washington College of Law, a Teaching Fellow with the Marshall-Brennan Constitutional Literacy Project, VP of Membership with If/When/How: Lawyering for Reproductive Justice, and an Intern with Women Lawyers on Guard. Transcript:  MARTHA AMRINE: All right. Hello. My name is Martha Amrine and I'm a claims attorney with ALPS Insurance, and we welcome you to the ALPS podcast. Today, I'm talking with Katie Peterson. She is a law student working, going to school and living in Washington, DC, obviously during the pandemic, which gives her a perspective that most of us didn't experience. We're talking with her today about how that experience has been and how that might shape her experience and getting her ready for her future career. Katie, thank you for joining us. KATIE PETERSON: Hi. Yes- [inaudible 00:01:02] ... for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk a little bit about my experience. MARTHA: Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? KATIE: Of course. So I moved to Washington DC, as you mentioned, for law school from Georgia. I went to the University of Georgia for undergraduate and I studied women's studies and sociology. So I think that really set me up nicely for law school, especially in terms of what I'm interested in, that being advocacy and legislation that's centered around advocacy. So I feel that has led me to sort of where I am now. I basically grew up in the south. DC is the furthest north that I've ever lived. So I always tell people that I'm in the north, even though I get pushed back on that saying I'm still the south. I refuse to believe it. [crosstalk 00:02:04] I say, "No, I'm a North easterner now." I feel like I basically live in New York. Yeah, that's just a little bit about me. [crosstalk 00:02:14] MARTHA: Awesome. What about school activities, internship? I know you've got a lot of other things going on. What else are you involved in? KATIE: Absolutely. So I am currently on the board of If/When/How: Lawyering for Reproductive Justice, which is a national organization, but I'm on the board of the Washington College of Law chapter. I was on the board this past year and will continue in my role as vice president next year. I also am currently interning for Women Lawyers On Guard, which is a small nonprofit that focuses on sexual harassment in the legal profession. MARTHA: Awesome. Let's say March of last year was the beginning of all of the changes. Tell us about that first part of your first year and what was important, how things went with school and studying and social life and all of that. KATIE: The first part post-pandemic after everything- MARTHA: Pre, yeah. KATIE: Pre pandemic. So pre pandemic, I felt like I had a very normal law school career. I was really close with my sort of section mates, which seems to be pretty common amongst law schools. Your section mates or the people you spend most of your time with. So I spent a lot of time with my friends that I made in my section in class and then going and having our lunches together in the cafeteria, going for coffee, spending a lot of time in the library, studying together and really forming connections that we all expected to carry on through our law school careers. Whether or not that's happened, obviously everything was interrupted by this global pandemic. So it's been an adjustment definitely, and we'll get into that.                 But pre pandemic, it really felt like a normal law school experience. It was stressful and it was exciting, it's new. It was fun. Then obviously, it had its less fun moments. But ultimately, I think something that was present my pre pandemic law career that is a little less present now is just sort of that sense of comradery and being able to... When that big assignment's coming up or that really difficult test or project is coming up, you kind of have that support system around, whether it's just commiserating and talking about how difficult everything is or getting good advice from people, that was a really beneficial part of being in person. MARTHA: Yeah. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about how things change March 2020 and what differences there were to your entire life basically. KATIE: Yeah. Like so many people, my entire education moved online in March 2020 pretty close to our spring break. Everything changed really. The school buildings closed down. We were unable to access the campus that I had been going to every day for almost a year. It was much more difficult to get together with friends and talk about assignments. It was fairly close to the end of the semester, relatively. So it was around the time that we started outlining. So studying started to look a lot different. I remember when we first went online, definitely talking to my friends saying, "Oh, we have to we have to Zoom or FaceTime during class or after class," or basically trying to kind of hype ourselves up almost to stay connected, which is a lot easier said than done. MARTHA: Yeah. So how has that been? Have you been able to maintain connections with online and limited ways of seeing people? KATIE: Yeah. It's a lot different. I feel that I've been able to maintain closer friendships more easily, and it's been much more difficult for me to maintain those sorts of acquaintances and keep in touch with acquaintances. A lot of that sort of connecting is done via just social media now. I do have acquaintances from my section or my law school in general who are not super active on social media, which obviously is fine, but it's just harder to kind of stay in touch with them. I have no clue what some of the acquaintances that I had made my first year pre pandemic, I don't know what they're up to now, which it's just different. I won't put a value judgment on it, but it's just a very different experience now. MARTHA: Then what about connections with faculty or decision-making by the university as things change and things develop? How has that been? KATIE: I'd say that everything now is generally done a bit more slowly, especially in terms of trying to communicate with faculty or administration. It's more difficult now than it was pre pandemic when we were in person. It was so easy to see a professor in the hallway and stop them for a quick comment or question or go into their office hours, which almost all professors offered. It was just really... I felt like our professors and the administration as well were very accessible. Whereas now, I know everyone's trying their best, but it's just more difficult to have those sort of quick informal conversations that you might have with a professor or administrator that you really like. MARTHA: Yeah. So when we were chatting and planning for the podcast, you and I talked a little bit about the importance of the first year finals. Back in the day when I went to law school, it sounds like not much has changed, but you basically studied and you prepared all year for this one set of tests that not only determined your grades for the first year, but really put you in a place where you either did or didn't have... You either had opportunities or maybe your opportunities were limited, or you kind of had your place in class rank all based on this one set of tests. We could probably debate for three days about how that is fair, not fair, good, bad, but that's the reality, is that these tests that at the end of the first year, are very, very important. Based on the timeline, these came about right after lockdown came into effect. So tell us a little bit about that and how that worked, how that has found its place for you in terms of the importance of your experience in law school and any other details. KATIE: Yeah, you're absolutely right and it stays the case that your first year of law school grades and GPA are a paramount importance in a lot of students' lives, particularly those interested in working at a law firm or maybe corporate law or, "big law." I put quotation marks around that because people might interpret that to mean different things, but they're extremely important to this day. So my school did have, after the pandemic really became very serious in America and we decided to close the school down and moved to virtual classes, there was a pretty intense debate over whether we should maintain the A through F grading system or transition to a pass/fail grading system, which some law schools adopted very early on because of the pandemic, the change in circumstances that everybody was undergoing and trying to cope with.                 There was a lot of discussion amongst the community. A lot of proponents for pass/fail were of course, making arguments that our circumstances had changed drastically. Some people working from home have to care for other relatives, or maybe don't have the best environment in which to study. There's just a host of variables that could affect someone's performance on an exam, which I agree with all of those points. Then others who were in favor of keeping the A through F grading system made a lot of the same points that you just made in terms of how important GPA is to law students entering the workforce, especially because it's was not, to my understanding, it was not 100% uniform throughout law schools in the country, whether or not it was going to be pass/fail or graded A through F, so there was discussion there as well in terms of our students who maintain the A through F grading system and apply to a job, will they have some advantage over a student whose school adopted pass/fail?                 So those were kind of the arguments on both sides. [crosstalk 00:13:37] I personally did not feel super strongly about either one. I understood both sides of the argument. That's sort of the, I think, maybe a future politician in me trying to be moderate. But ultimately, my school adopted pass/fail. In retrospect, I appreciated it personally based on my performance on my property exam. I really, really appreciated the pass/fail aspect of it, but I really think that people still continued to study and work hard. I don't think anyone's work ethic really changed because of it because at the end of the day, we all have to take the bar anyways and we're all paying a lot of money to attend law school. So it really doesn't make sense to not try. So I think some of the concerns that people had, while I understand them, were just mitigated by each individual's work effort and an ethic and personal desire to do well, regardless of being greater than not. You're completely right that we could debate for a long time about the- [crosstalk 00:14:52]. MARTHA: It really just hurts you if you don't figure it out at the first opportunity. Yeah. KATIE: Exactly. That's completely right. MARTHA: Yeah. So after the finals, tell us about your first summer. KATIE: Yeah. So my first summer, I decided to go down to Georgia to stay with my parents, live there mainly because of all of the uncertainty surrounding COVID and DC is a very populous region and I have a dog, so I would have to go out frequently to take her out. There was just a lot of uncertainties surrounding how contagious it was, what outdoor space. So all of that saying that I ultimately decided to go spend the summer with my parents so that I could sort of socially distance even more at their house and limit my exposure to other individuals. MARTHA: Right, because there is a big difference between, I'm imagining, where your parents are, in Virginia in the middle of DC in terms of space and contact with other people. KATIE: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. My parents are in Georgia. So I went down and stayed with them. They have their house and they have a backyard and their neighborhood is very... It's just not very busy. I live in a neighborhood in DC. There's always, always, always 100% people walking around outside near my apartment, or I will always, while walking my dog or even taking her out to go to the bathroom, I will always run into another person. So having a yard was a huge game changer. MARTHA: Yeah. Were able to work or do internships or be involved in law related activities from your home in Georgia? KATIE: I was. So fortunately, a lot of places adapted to work from home pretty quickly. One of the silver linings, I'll say, of the pandemic, at least in terms of being a law student, was that I had access to a lot more opportunities that I maybe wouldn't normally have access to just in terms of being online, you have the opportunity to work for someone who might be in a different state that you might otherwise being in person, not have access to that opportunity. But I was able to start my job with Women Lawyers On Guard, which I've been at for almost a year now, and I started working virtually for. I also did a corporate externship where I worked virtually for Boral Material Technologies, which is a company based in Australia. I did a seminar to accompany that, so I got some credit for it. MARTHA: Awesome. KATIE: [crosstalk 00:18:11] ... do both of those virtual. MARTHA: Yeah. Great. All right. So you made the decision and made the move back to DC after this summer, but what about your fellow students, your colleagues in school? Did everybody make it back? How did the second year ago? KATIE: Yeah, it's super interesting. I definitely have the thought of, is it worth it to go back if we're going to be online? Just because it's so expensive to live in DC. So I definitely had that thought, but I decided ultimately to come back because I really like DC and I like where I live. But I do know some people who have either not come back at all or have come back and then have been traveling a lot... I know one person, one of my peers who went abroad to Europe, I think, for a while and has now come back. I know a couple people whose families are in Florida. So especially during the winter months, they were enjoying the Florida heat while we were all freezing. MARTHA: Yeah, while doing online school? KATIE: Yeah. Yes, all of this while doing online school, which is a bit ironic just considering that our school decided to cancel our spring break out of concern that people would be traveling, which again, is just sort of funny because people were traveling already regardless. But people have really been able to sort of take their schedule and kind of take their life almost back into their own hands just in terms of being able to live where they want and do what they want in their free time while also going to school. So I think that there's been a lot of flexibility for people online. MARTHA: Yeah. So you are in your early twenties, you live by yourself, your job, really, looking back, what I would say is to socialize and have those personal connections, especially when your family is all in Georgia. Has that been hard for you? KATIE: It has been. Yeah, it has been hard. I've been trying to really maintain as much social distancing as I can. I've really, really been trying in the past year to stay in as much and really avoid contact with people who are not in my bubble, I guess you could say, which is very small as it should be. But even with people within my bubble, it's been difficult to try to find the time to hang out or get together. My friends are obviously just as busy as I am. They all have their own lives. So that's been a bit disappointing just because when you're in person, it is so easy to get lunch with someone between class or meet them at the library, or like I mentioned, to get a coffee or something.                 But now, it really is you have to go out of your way to see people, which I think for a lot of people has just meant seeing people less. It's just easier to stay in and maybe FaceTime or Zoom or something as opposed to actually taking the risk to go out. Especially, oh my gosh, in DC, you're trying to find parking or if you're doing public transportation, it really- [crosstalk 00:22:31] MARTHA: There's a lot of people around. KATIE: Yeah. It's just a hassle to get together with people now, honestly. So I would say that my social life has definitely been a bit... It's taken a couple steps back, I think, since I moved to DC. MARTHA: Yeah. KATIE: Yeah. MARTHA: So when you look at... Hopefully, new developments are coming and then we're having more opportunities in the very near future. Going forward, what are your thoughts about how... We've all been through this pandemic. Not very many of us have been through it while essentially training for our career as you are in right smack in the middle of your law school experience. How do you think that hinders you in one way? And we can talk about benefits, but what do you see as the pros versus cons with you experiencing this at this point in your life? KATIE: Well, I think one of the biggest cons that jumps mind is just, I think it's impossible to quantify the opportunity costs of missing out on over a year of in-person education. Law professors and administrators are such great resources for all types of reasons, but especially when it comes to finding work, finding a job. It is so much easier to be able to go up to a professor between classes or lunch and talk to them about what you're interested in. It's just a lot easier, I think, to find opportunities when you're in person than it is now. Now being online, there's almost a sort of formality to everything that was not there when we were in person. Now, I spend way too long writing simple emails questioning whether something should be a question mark, or if I should include an exclamation point, or does that make me seem too eager?                 So it's just kind of all of these extra considerations that you don't really need to take into account when you're in person because it's much more natural to communicate with someone in person, I think. So that is, I think, one of the biggest detriments is just not knowing what kind of opportunities could have been available to me that I wasn't able to take advantage of. But I also think at the same time, I've become more flexible. I think a lot of people have become more flexible because of this experience. It just really goes to show that you never know what could happen. I don't think anyone foresaw a global pandemic happening. So I think at the same time while yes, I might've lost out on some experiences, at least now, I feel like I personally am a more flexible person and I don't worry myself so much when something might go wrong. MARTHA: Yeah. What, if you know, does your last summer in law school and then your third year look like? KATIE: So this summer, I just signed up for a summer course and I will continue my work with Women Lawyers On Guard. I'm really focused on trying to fundraise for them and find some money for the projects that we're trying to accomplish. In terms of my third year, my final year of law school should be pretty exciting. I will be teaching through the Marshall-Brennan Constitutional Literacy Project. So I'll be teaching in DC public high schools about the democratic process and the US Constitution and some of the law that has been established by the constitution and through cases over the years. I also will be partaking in the Gender Justice Clinic at WCL. So I'll have the opportunity to be a student lawyer, which I'm really excited about. MARTHA: Great. I know it's looking ahead and maybe there's not a clear plan, but what do you plan after law school? KATIE: That's an excellent question. I ask myself that every morning when I wake up. I hope to work on legislation in some capacity, whether it be working with the government. I'm hoping to find a job on the Hill sometime soon in some capacity. So whether I'm working for the government on legislation or working for some sort of nonprofit or NGO, I know that I want to be involved in making the law through legislation. MARTHA: Has your interest in policy and legislation been formed by or been altered by your experience over the last year? KATIE: Absolutely. I think over the last year, I have really learned a lot more about particularly federalism and the role that each local, state and then the federal government plays in these important functions, such as administering vaccines or tests, or just sort of emergency preparedness in general. Also, I think in this past year, the pandemic has really exacerbated a lot of social inequalities that I've been passionate about for a long time and now, I think is a really good time for young activists and future legislators like me to really examine what our role should be in trying to end some of the inequality that's present in recent American culture and society. MARTHA: Awesome. Well, gosh. It's really great to hear from you and about your experience. I think that what you're doing is... You can your passion about your future career, which is amazing. We're really excited, not only to hear your story and have you here, but hopefully here what you end up doing in the future and your path forward. So I really appreciate your time. I'm sure a lot of people will think that your thoughts and your experiences have been... This has been really interesting. I'm sure lots of people will find it interesting, and we sure appreciate having you. KATIE: Great. Thank you so much for having me. MARTHA: Yeah. Thanks, Katie.    

Katie: Hi I'm Katie I am a grateful recovering addict, I am a grateful sober person, I have been free from cutting for 8 months, I've been staying off of hard drugs for three and a half years and I have been clean off of weed for 8 months. Ken: So what were some of the things that you were hoping to learn when we started talking? Katie: I wanted to learn to love myself, I hated myself before I met you. Ken: How did that come about? How did you start hating yourself? Katie: My parents would shame me for being fat, They would even though my mom was bigger than me; She would tell me that I needed to lose weight. My family would shame me for binge eating, which I did to cover the hurt of them telling me I was fat. Ken: What other things where you up and cover come with me start talking Katie: I was hoping to overcome my cutting addiction. Ken: Give us a little background on your cutting addiction. How did that look? Katie: I started cutting at 10 years old my grandma died when I was seven and that devastated me and I started cutting. Then it started getting really bad when I was 14. That was when my sister who was 9 years old, found me in the bathtub full of orange bath water because I've bled almost out. She woke me up, she bandaged my wounds, dried me off and she put me in bed. She then told my parents that I was okay, but that I was asleep and I didn't want dinner. That's when I started going downhill even more, because two weeks later she started cutting and I blamed myself. Ken: What was it that was causing all the cutting? Katie: I felt like there was no other outlet for my pain, everybody was silencing me. I wasn't able to talk about my feelings. Ken: Where do you think you would be if you hadn't gone through the “you have value” program? Katie: I probably still be cutting myself, not knowing what to do with my life, Actually I'd probably be dead I had a suicide pact with accouple people that I'm not going to name. But we were supposed to kill ourselves before we turned 20. I don't think without your program I'd still be alive to be telling you this story. Ken; I am so glad that you did not keep that pact! Because there was pain right? I get it. There was a lot of pain that happened. I mean we get shamed from maybe parents or others from school. We get those feelings we get those emotions and there's so many of us that struggle in knowing how to deal with those. Ken: Since we can't deal with them we bury those emotions and those emotions that are buried they never go away, they never die. So these emotions they're trying to get out on the surface and these actions that you were using, like drugs and all, were just trying to let out all those buried emotions. Now it is a really amazing thing to work through those, that takes a very strong person not everybody will do it. It is important to look at yourself and that is what this program is all about. Have the changes that we work together to introduce into your life have they continue to work for you? Katie: Yes they have, the tools you gave me to help stop cutting the ice cube, the rubberband, I don't even have to use them anymore and I don't think about cutting. Ken : What is the difference that the “you have value” program had? Katie: It made me realize that I'm more than just my body, I've got Spirit, I've got a heart. I can think for myself instead of letting everybody else think for me. Please subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating and review, to help others find this podcast. Also join the Facebook group. Here is the spot to click and set up a time so we can discuss how you can use these tools and others to get your amazing life! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/youramazinglife/support

Todd: So Katie, I want to go to the mall.Katie: Okay.Todd: Have you been to the new mall?Katie: Yeah, I actually went there just yesterday.Todd: Okay. So I want to buy some computer stuff. Is there a computer store?Katie: There are two computer stores.Todd: Really? Ooh, that's good.Katie: There's a computer store on the first floor, and then very close to that there's also a Mac store.Todd: Ooh, that's perfect. I want to buy a new Mac.Katie: Oh, me too.Todd: They're so expensive, though.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay, what about books? I really like books. Is there a bookstore with English books?Katie: There's a huge bookstore on the fourth floor.Todd: Ooh, that's good.Katie: It's really big. And there are lots of English books you can read there.Todd: Oh, great. Nice. And how about the food there?Katie: The food's okay. There's a big food court on the third floor, and you can get a variety of food. You can get a Subway.Todd: Oh, that's good. I love sandwiches. Is the food good there, though?Katie: They don't have any sandwiches that I like, basically.Todd: Oh, really. Okay. So what else is there at the mall?Katie: Oh, there's so much at the mall. There's a café on the ground floor.Todd: Oh, nice.Katie: If you like drinking coffee.Todd: I do. I like to go and study and just relax.Katie: That's the perfect place for you, then.Todd: I like to people watch. Is it a good people-watching place?Katie: Oh, it's a great people-watching place.Todd: Oh, cool.Katie: The windows are really big, and you can see out onto the street.Todd: Oh, cool. What else is there? Is there a movie theater?Katie: Mm-hmm. There's a movie theater on the fourth floor.Todd: Oh, great. Now, do they have English movies?Katie: They have English and Japanese movies.Todd: Oh, that's good. I should watch some Japanese movies too.Katie: They're interesting.Todd: And how about food? I hear there's a new supermarket, a big supermarket there.Katie: It's pretty big. And you can get lots of food there. It's on the first floor.Todd: Okay. Is there anything else I should see?Katie: What about the roof garden?Todd: Oh, what is the roof garden?Katie: It's on the fifth floor, and it's, well it's on the roof, and you can see a beautiful view of the city. And there's also places for you to sit and just enjoy the view.Todd: Oh, nice. A roof garden, I like that.Katie: It's really nice.Todd: Now, do you buy clothes at the mall? Do they have nice clothing shops?Katie: Yeah, they have nice clothing shops. Some of them are a little bit expensive.Todd: Ah, yeah.Katie: And I like buying cheap clothes.Todd: Okay. When's a good time to go?Katie: I think the best time to go is probably weekdays.Todd: Okay. Why?Katie: If you go on the weekend, there are so many children there.Todd: Oh.Katie: Ugh. It's hard to walk around.Todd: Yeah, and we're teachers, we teach kids all day.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay. I don't want to go then.Katie: No, me neither.Todd: Well, I want to go there next week, maybe Thursday night.Katie: Okay.Todd: Do you want to join me?Katie: Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe we can watch a movie.Todd: Cool. I'll buy you dinner.Katie: Sounds great.

Todd: So Katie, I want to go to the mall.Katie: Okay.Todd: Have you been to the new mall?Katie: Yeah, I actually went there just yesterday.Todd: Okay. So I want to buy some computer stuff. Is there a computer store?Katie: There are two computer stores.Todd: Really? Ooh, that's good.Katie: There's a computer store on the first floor, and then very close to that there's also a Mac store.Todd: Ooh, that's perfect. I want to buy a new Mac.Katie: Oh, me too.Todd: They're so expensive, though.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay, what about books? I really like books. Is there a bookstore with English books?Katie: There's a huge bookstore on the fourth floor.Todd: Ooh, that's good.Katie: It's really big. And there are lots of English books you can read there.Todd: Oh, great. Nice. And how about the food there?Katie: The food's okay. There's a big food court on the third floor, and you can get a variety of food. You can get a Subway.Todd: Oh, that's good. I love sandwiches. Is the food good there, though?Katie: They don't have any sandwiches that I like, basically.Todd: Oh, really. Okay. So what else is there at the mall?Katie: Oh, there's so much at the mall. There's a café on the ground floor.Todd: Oh, nice.Katie: If you like drinking coffee.Todd: I do. I like to go and study and just relax.Katie: That's the perfect place for you, then.Todd: I like to people watch. Is it a good people-watching place?Katie: Oh, it's a great people-watching place.Todd: Oh, cool.Katie: The windows are really big, and you can see out onto the street.Todd: Oh, cool. What else is there? Is there a movie theater?Katie: Mm-hmm. There's a movie theater on the fourth floor.Todd: Oh, great. Now, do they have English movies?Katie: They have English and Japanese movies.Todd: Oh, that's good. I should watch some Japanese movies too.Katie: They're interesting.Todd: And how about food? I hear there's a new supermarket, a big supermarket there.Katie: It's pretty big. And you can get lots of food there. It's on the first floor.Todd: Okay. Is there anything else I should see?Katie: What about the roof garden?Todd: Oh, what is the roof garden?Katie: It's on the fifth floor, and it's, well it's on the roof, and you can see a beautiful view of the city. And there's also places for you to sit and just enjoy the view.Todd: Oh, nice. A roof garden, I like that.Katie: It's really nice.Todd: Now, do you buy clothes at the mall? Do they have nice clothing shops?Katie: Yeah, they have nice clothing shops. Some of them are a little bit expensive.Todd: Ah, yeah.Katie: And I like buying cheap clothes.Todd: Okay. When's a good time to go?Katie: I think the best time to go is probably weekdays.Todd: Okay. Why?Katie: If you go on the weekend, there are so many children there.Todd: Oh.Katie: Ugh. It's hard to walk around.Todd: Yeah, and we're teachers, we teach kids all day.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay. I don't want to go then.Katie: No, me neither.Todd: Well, I want to go there next week, maybe Thursday night.Katie: Okay.Todd: Do you want to join me?Katie: Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe we can watch a movie.Todd: Cool. I'll buy you dinner.Katie: Sounds great.

Todd: So Katie, I want to go to the mall.Katie: Okay.Todd: Have you been to the new mall?Katie: Yeah, I actually went there just yesterday.Todd: Okay. So I want to buy some computer stuff. Is there a computer store?Katie: There are two computer stores.Todd: Really? Ooh, that's good.Katie: There's a computer store on the first floor, and then very close to that there's also a Mac store.Todd: Ooh, that's perfect. I want to buy a new Mac.Katie: Oh, me too.Todd: They're so expensive, though.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay, what about books? I really like books. Is there a bookstore with English books?Katie: There's a huge bookstore on the fourth floor.Todd: Ooh, that's good.Katie: It's really big. And there are lots of English books you can read there.Todd: Oh, great. Nice. And how about the food there?Katie: The food's okay. There's a big food court on the third floor, and you can get a variety of food. You can get a Subway.Todd: Oh, that's good. I love sandwiches. Is the food good there, though?Katie: They don't have any sandwiches that I like, basically.Todd: Oh, really. Okay. So what else is there at the mall?Katie: Oh, there's so much at the mall. There's a café on the ground floor.Todd: Oh, nice.Katie: If you like drinking coffee.Todd: I do. I like to go and study and just relax.Katie: That's the perfect place for you, then.Todd: I like to people watch. Is it a good people-watching place?Katie: Oh, it's a great people-watching place.Todd: Oh, cool.Katie: The windows are really big, and you can see out onto the street.Todd: Oh, cool. What else is there? Is there a movie theater?Katie: Mm-hmm. There's a movie theater on the fourth floor.Todd: Oh, great. Now, do they have English movies?Katie: They have English and Japanese movies.Todd: Oh, that's good. I should watch some Japanese movies too.Katie: They're interesting.Todd: And how about food? I hear there's a new supermarket, a big supermarket there.Katie: It's pretty big. And you can get lots of food there. It's on the first floor.Todd: Okay. Is there anything else I should see?Katie: What about the roof garden?Todd: Oh, what is the roof garden?Katie: It's on the fifth floor, and it's, well it's on the roof, and you can see a beautiful view of the city. And there's also places for you to sit and just enjoy the view.Todd: Oh, nice. A roof garden, I like that.Katie: It's really nice.Todd: Now, do you buy clothes at the mall? Do they have nice clothing shops?Katie: Yeah, they have nice clothing shops. Some of them are a little bit expensive.Todd: Ah, yeah.Katie: And I like buying cheap clothes.Todd: Okay. When's a good time to go?Katie: I think the best time to go is probably weekdays.Todd: Okay. Why?Katie: If you go on the weekend, there are so many children there.Todd: Oh.Katie: Ugh. It's hard to walk around.Todd: Yeah, and we're teachers, we teach kids all day.Katie: Mm-hmm.Todd: Okay. I don't want to go then.Katie: No, me neither.Todd: Well, I want to go there next week, maybe Thursday night.Katie: Okay.Todd: Do you want to join me?Katie: Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe we can watch a movie.Todd: Cool. I'll buy you dinner.Katie: Sounds great.

Todd: So, Katie, you are from England, correct?Katie: Uh-hmm, that's right.Todd: Are you from a big town?Katie: I'm from a very small town.Todd: Oh, what's the name?Katie: It's in the southwest. It's called Torquay.Todd: Torquay.Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: OK. Is it a fun place to live?Katie: I think so. It's, it's very famous in the UK because we lots of beautiful beaches.Todd: Oh, that's nice.Katie: Hmm.Todd: So, in your town, where is a good place to go food shopping?Katie: There are a lot of supermarkets that you can go to. Most of them you need to go by car.Todd: Oh, that's a problem.Katie: It's difficult to walk to a close supermarket. But I'm lucky because there is one very close to my house that I can go to.Todd: OK. And can you recommend a good restaurant in your town? Where is a good place to eat dinner?Katie: There are lots of amazing restaurants along the sea front. So, you can sit in a restaurant and you can look at the beach at the same time.Todd: Oh, that's nice.Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: How romantic.Katie: It's beautiful.Todd: Is it expensive?Katie: It depends what restaurant you go to. If you go to an Italian restaurant, that's going to be expensive.Todd: What kind of foods do they have?Katie: They have all kinds of foods, but the most popular food in my home town is Italian food and Chinese food.Todd: OK. No British food?Katie: Not really. (laughs)Todd: OK. We don't have American food either except hamburgers.Katie: They're good though.Todd: In your town, where is a good place to exercise?Katie: It depends on what kind of exercise you like. But we have lots of parks and people are always playing football in the parks.Todd: So, there's a, is there a big park in the middle of town?Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: OK. Is it easy to get to?Katie: It's pretty easy to get to. Most people can walk there.Todd: So, that brings us to nature. Where's a good place to see nature?Katie: Well, you can see beautiful beaches wherever you look. There are so many beautiful beaches in Torquay. But there are also lots of beautiful gardens and you can see lots of flowers.Todd: OK. Nice.Katie: It's very nice. Yeah.Todd: That is nice. So, are there walking trails on the beach?Katie: Uh-hmm, and in the gardens too there are walking paths that you can take. And you can go in the mountains—Todd: Oh, beautiful.Katie: —and see stuff there too.Todd: That's lovely. So, in your town, where is a good place to meet people?Katie: Well, I keep saying the beach but lots of people from all over the UK come to Torquay to see the beach, so you can meet lots of different. People come for their holidays.Todd: OK. So, you can meet new people.Katie: Lots of new people. Yeah.Todd: That's cool.Katie: You can make lots of new friends.Todd: Now, what about a quiet place? Where's a good place to study or read or just relax?Katie: Well, we have lots of cafés that you can go to if you want to just have a quiet moment or just to read some books. You can go to a café.Todd: OK. And are the cafés easy to find?Katie: They're very easy to find. And we have lots of famous café brands as well.Todd: OK. Are there cafés on the beach, too?Katie: No. They're in the town center but the town center is very close to the beach.Todd: OK. Now, when is a good time to visit your town?Katie: Well…Todd: So, you say the beach, so summer?Katie: Yeah. I would say summer is a good time. But in England, there is not usually a good time because it's raining almost every day. But if you want to go to the beach, probably summer is a good time.Todd: OK. What about the fall?Katie: I mean, the fall is okay. Winter is good. Lots of people go to, go swimming on Christmas Day.Todd: Well, I definitely want to go there.Katie: Yes. It's a lovely place.

Todd: So, Katie, you are from England, correct?Katie: Uh-hmm, that's right.Todd: Are you from a big town?Katie: I'm from a very small town.Todd: Oh, what's the name?Katie: It's in the southwest. It's called Torquay.Todd: Torquay.Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: OK. Is it a fun place to live?Katie: I think so. It's, it's very famous in the UK because we lots of beautiful beaches.Todd: Oh, that's nice.Katie: Hmm.Todd: So, in your town, where is a good place to go food shopping?Katie: There are a lot of supermarkets that you can go to. Most of them you need to go by car.Todd: Oh, that's a problem.Katie: It's difficult to walk to a close supermarket. But I'm lucky because there is one very close to my house that I can go to.Todd: OK. And can you recommend a good restaurant in your town? Where is a good place to eat dinner?Katie: There are lots of amazing restaurants along the sea front. So, you can sit in a restaurant and you can look at the beach at the same time.Todd: Oh, that's nice.Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: How romantic.Katie: It's beautiful.Todd: Is it expensive?Katie: It depends what restaurant you go to. If you go to an Italian restaurant, that's going to be expensive.Todd: What kind of foods do they have?Katie: They have all kinds of foods, but the most popular food in my home town is Italian food and Chinese food.Todd: OK. No British food?Katie: Not really. (laughs)Todd: OK. We don't have American food either except hamburgers.Katie: They're good though.Todd: In your town, where is a good place to exercise?Katie: It depends on what kind of exercise you like. But we have lots of parks and people are always playing football in the parks.Todd: So, there's a, is there a big park in the middle of town?Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: OK. Is it easy to get to?Katie: It's pretty easy to get to. Most people can walk there.Todd: So, that brings us to nature. Where's a good place to see nature?Katie: Well, you can see beautiful beaches wherever you look. There are so many beautiful beaches in Torquay. But there are also lots of beautiful gardens and you can see lots of flowers.Todd: OK. Nice.Katie: It's very nice. Yeah.Todd: That is nice. So, are there walking trails on the beach?Katie: Uh-hmm, and in the gardens too there are walking paths that you can take. And you can go in the mountains—Todd: Oh, beautiful.Katie: —and see stuff there too.Todd: That's lovely. So, in your town, where is a good place to meet people?Katie: Well, I keep saying the beach but lots of people from all over the UK come to Torquay to see the beach, so you can meet lots of different. People come for their holidays.Todd: OK. So, you can meet new people.Katie: Lots of new people. Yeah.Todd: That's cool.Katie: You can make lots of new friends.Todd: Now, what about a quiet place? Where's a good place to study or read or just relax?Katie: Well, we have lots of cafés that you can go to if you want to just have a quiet moment or just to read some books. You can go to a café.Todd: OK. And are the cafés easy to find?Katie: They're very easy to find. And we have lots of famous café brands as well.Todd: OK. Are there cafés on the beach, too?Katie: No. They're in the town center but the town center is very close to the beach.Todd: OK. Now, when is a good time to visit your town?Katie: Well…Todd: So, you say the beach, so summer?Katie: Yeah. I would say summer is a good time. But in England, there is not usually a good time because it's raining almost every day. But if you want to go to the beach, probably summer is a good time.Todd: OK. What about the fall?Katie: I mean, the fall is okay. Winter is good. Lots of people go to, go swimming on Christmas Day.Todd: Well, I definitely want to go there.Katie: Yes. It's a lovely place.

Todd: So, Katie, you are from England, correct?Katie: Uh-hmm, that's right.Todd: Are you from a big town?Katie: I'm from a very small town.Todd: Oh, what's the name?Katie: It's in the southwest. It's called Torquay.Todd: Torquay.Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: OK. Is it a fun place to live?Katie: I think so. It's, it's very famous in the UK because we lots of beautiful beaches.Todd: Oh, that's nice.Katie: Hmm.Todd: So, in your town, where is a good place to go food shopping?Katie: There are a lot of supermarkets that you can go to. Most of them you need to go by car.Todd: Oh, that's a problem.Katie: It's difficult to walk to a close supermarket. But I'm lucky because there is one very close to my house that I can go to.Todd: OK. And can you recommend a good restaurant in your town? Where is a good place to eat dinner?Katie: There are lots of amazing restaurants along the sea front. So, you can sit in a restaurant and you can look at the beach at the same time.Todd: Oh, that's nice.Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: How romantic.Katie: It's beautiful.Todd: Is it expensive?Katie: It depends what restaurant you go to. If you go to an Italian restaurant, that's going to be expensive.Todd: What kind of foods do they have?Katie: They have all kinds of foods, but the most popular food in my home town is Italian food and Chinese food.Todd: OK. No British food?Katie: Not really. (laughs)Todd: OK. We don't have American food either except hamburgers.Katie: They're good though.Todd: In your town, where is a good place to exercise?Katie: It depends on what kind of exercise you like. But we have lots of parks and people are always playing football in the parks.Todd: So, there's a, is there a big park in the middle of town?Katie: Uh-hmm.Todd: OK. Is it easy to get to?Katie: It's pretty easy to get to. Most people can walk there.Todd: So, that brings us to nature. Where's a good place to see nature?Katie: Well, you can see beautiful beaches wherever you look. There are so many beautiful beaches in Torquay. But there are also lots of beautiful gardens and you can see lots of flowers.Todd: OK. Nice.Katie: It's very nice. Yeah.Todd: That is nice. So, are there walking trails on the beach?Katie: Uh-hmm, and in the gardens too there are walking paths that you can take. And you can go in the mountains—Todd: Oh, beautiful.Katie: —and see stuff there too.Todd: That's lovely. So, in your town, where is a good place to meet people?Katie: Well, I keep saying the beach but lots of people from all over the UK come to Torquay to see the beach, so you can meet lots of different. People come for their holidays.Todd: OK. So, you can meet new people.Katie: Lots of new people. Yeah.Todd: That's cool.Katie: You can make lots of new friends.Todd: Now, what about a quiet place? Where's a good place to study or read or just relax?Katie: Well, we have lots of cafés that you can go to if you want to just have a quiet moment or just to read some books. You can go to a café.Todd: OK. And are the cafés easy to find?Katie: They're very easy to find. And we have lots of famous café brands as well.Todd: OK. Are there cafés on the beach, too?Katie: No. They're in the town center but the town center is very close to the beach.Todd: OK. Now, when is a good time to visit your town?Katie: Well…Todd: So, you say the beach, so summer?Katie: Yeah. I would say summer is a good time. But in England, there is not usually a good time because it's raining almost every day. But if you want to go to the beach, probably summer is a good time.Todd: OK. What about the fall?Katie: I mean, the fall is okay. Winter is good. Lots of people go to, go swimming on Christmas Day.Todd: Well, I definitely want to go there.Katie: Yes. It's a lovely place.

Katie: So what do you think is a good age for girls to start wearing?Aimee: I think it depends on the kind of that they're wearing and the purpose, you know, because to me, it seems like there are two different kinds. You know, there are young children, young girls, young children, who wear play, you know.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's a toy. It washes off easily, garish colors, very mild on the skin, and you know, it's literally just coloring in their face. It's not, you know, enhancing their features or trying to look as society thinks beautiful, you know. They're not covering up any pimples or spots, you know. It's not like that. It's just coloring in their face, trying to look more like a princess.And I have a six-year old daughter and she loves. She has her own, like, young like toyand she asks permission to wear it, and I let her wear it. I bought some for her. I make sure that she can only do it if she has a clean face and clean hands and that she washes off properly at the end. And that she tidides it away afterwards.Katie: That's good.Aimee: She's actually on her final warning because she used to leave it out – and I've warned her I will throw it in the bin. Because I have a toddler and she wants to see what her big sister is doing and she wants to play with it, so she grabs it and makes a mess everywhere. So yeah, six-year old is on her final warning.So I guess to answer your question, my six-year old is wearing her play make-up already. So it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't bother me. Young is –Katie: How old were you when you started wearing?Aimee: Well, I love, and that's probably where my daughter got it from. I wanted to wear from a young age, the way my daughter does. I wasn't allowed. It was forbidden. And I first actually managed to buy a secret when I was about 9 or 10.Katie: Secret.Aimee: Yeah. I had to hide it from my mom, and she would only let me wear lip gloss when I was that age, and I wasn't allowed to wear any lip sticks, soI had to buy a secret one. And I was always so interested in my grandmother's and my mom's as well. But she never really wore much. She has a very simple sort of beauty routine.I'm much more interested in it than she is – she ever was. So I don't know where I inherited that from, but my daughter has definitely inherited that from me. So maybe because it was forbidden for me that's why I was drawn to it more.Katie: Makes it more tantalizing.Aimee: I think so. That could be it, but yeah, it's a real hobby for me. I really, really love it. I wish I had more money to purchase more. You can never have enough.Katie: You can never have too many.Aimee: I know. It's true.Katie: What do you think about boys wearing?Aimee: If they want to wear, then they should. Like it annoys me this horrible idea and concept of like men and boys have to be manly, like what is manly?For me, is an art. It really is. It's artistry. And, you know, if they want it, if they're feeling bad about their skin the way I feel bad about my skin, right. If I have pimples or spots, I'm lucky. I get to just cover up with like foundation and concealer, a bit of blusher. It makes me feel better.But, you know, if there's like a boy who has, you know, going through teenage years and he's got bad skin and he wants to cover up, and his macho friends catch him wearing it or whatever people in school catch him wearing it and it can be a really bad situation for him. And I think that is awful. It is really, really terrible. I think boys should wear as they like.I actually follow quite a lot of artists on social media. And I look at many, many pictures of different products and the art that they produce, and I follow male artists as well. And the skills they have are unbelievable, honestly. The blending skills.Katie: Their contouring.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Oh my goodness.Aimee: The blending skills and like covering up, you know, basically just like covering up their whole face and putting a new face on top of it.Katie: It's pretty impressive.Aimee: It's really impressive. It's so amazing. I would really enjoy a lesson from some of the artists that I follow on different sites.Katie: Absolutely.

Katie: So what do you think is a good age for girls to start wearing?Aimee: I think it depends on the kind of that they're wearing and the purpose, you know, because to me, it seems like there are two different kinds. You know, there are young children, young girls, young children, who wear play, you know.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's a toy. It washes off easily, garish colors, very mild on the skin, and you know, it's literally just coloring in their face. It's not, you know, enhancing their features or trying to look as society thinks beautiful, you know. They're not covering up any pimples or spots, you know. It's not like that. It's just coloring in their face, trying to look more like a princess.And I have a six-year old daughter and she loves. She has her own, like, young like toyand she asks permission to wear it, and I let her wear it. I bought some for her. I make sure that she can only do it if she has a clean face and clean hands and that she washes off properly at the end. And that she tidides it away afterwards.Katie: That's good.Aimee: She's actually on her final warning because she used to leave it out – and I've warned her I will throw it in the bin. Because I have a toddler and she wants to see what her big sister is doing and she wants to play with it, so she grabs it and makes a mess everywhere. So yeah, six-year old is on her final warning.So I guess to answer your question, my six-year old is wearing her play make-up already. So it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't bother me. Young is –Katie: How old were you when you started wearing?Aimee: Well, I love, and that's probably where my daughter got it from. I wanted to wear from a young age, the way my daughter does. I wasn't allowed. It was forbidden. And I first actually managed to buy a secret when I was about 9 or 10.Katie: Secret.Aimee: Yeah. I had to hide it from my mom, and she would only let me wear lip gloss when I was that age, and I wasn't allowed to wear any lip sticks, soI had to buy a secret one. And I was always so interested in my grandmother's and my mom's as well. But she never really wore much. She has a very simple sort of beauty routine.I'm much more interested in it than she is – she ever was. So I don't know where I inherited that from, but my daughter has definitely inherited that from me. So maybe because it was forbidden for me that's why I was drawn to it more.Katie: Makes it more tantalizing.Aimee: I think so. That could be it, but yeah, it's a real hobby for me. I really, really love it. I wish I had more money to purchase more. You can never have enough.Katie: You can never have too many.Aimee: I know. It's true.Katie: What do you think about boys wearing?Aimee: If they want to wear, then they should. Like it annoys me this horrible idea and concept of like men and boys have to be manly, like what is manly?For me, is an art. It really is. It's artistry. And, you know, if they want it, if they're feeling bad about their skin the way I feel bad about my skin, right. If I have pimples or spots, I'm lucky. I get to just cover up with like foundation and concealer, a bit of blusher. It makes me feel better.But, you know, if there's like a boy who has, you know, going through teenage years and he's got bad skin and he wants to cover up, and his macho friends catch him wearing it or whatever people in school catch him wearing it and it can be a really bad situation for him. And I think that is awful. It is really, really terrible. I think boys should wear as they like.I actually follow quite a lot of artists on social media. And I look at many, many pictures of different products and the art that they produce, and I follow male artists as well. And the skills they have are unbelievable, honestly. The blending skills.Katie: Their contouring.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Oh my goodness.Aimee: The blending skills and like covering up, you know, basically just like covering up their whole face and putting a new face on top of it.Katie: It's pretty impressive.Aimee: It's really impressive. It's so amazing. I would really enjoy a lesson from some of the artists that I follow on different sites.Katie: Absolutely.

Katie: So what do you think is a good age for girls to start wearing?Aimee: I think it depends on the kind of that they're wearing and the purpose, you know, because to me, it seems like there are two different kinds. You know, there are young children, young girls, young children, who wear play, you know.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's a toy. It washes off easily, garish colors, very mild on the skin, and you know, it's literally just coloring in their face. It's not, you know, enhancing their features or trying to look as society thinks beautiful, you know. They're not covering up any pimples or spots, you know. It's not like that. It's just coloring in their face, trying to look more like a princess.And I have a six-year old daughter and she loves. She has her own, like, young like toyand she asks permission to wear it, and I let her wear it. I bought some for her. I make sure that she can only do it if she has a clean face and clean hands and that she washes off properly at the end. And that she tidides it away afterwards.Katie: That's good.Aimee: She's actually on her final warning because she used to leave it out – and I've warned her I will throw it in the bin. Because I have a toddler and she wants to see what her big sister is doing and she wants to play with it, so she grabs it and makes a mess everywhere. So yeah, six-year old is on her final warning.So I guess to answer your question, my six-year old is wearing her play make-up already. So it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't bother me. Young is –Katie: How old were you when you started wearing?Aimee: Well, I love, and that's probably where my daughter got it from. I wanted to wear from a young age, the way my daughter does. I wasn't allowed. It was forbidden. And I first actually managed to buy a secret when I was about 9 or 10.Katie: Secret.Aimee: Yeah. I had to hide it from my mom, and she would only let me wear lip gloss when I was that age, and I wasn't allowed to wear any lip sticks, soI had to buy a secret one. And I was always so interested in my grandmother's and my mom's as well. But she never really wore much. She has a very simple sort of beauty routine.I'm much more interested in it than she is – she ever was. So I don't know where I inherited that from, but my daughter has definitely inherited that from me. So maybe because it was forbidden for me that's why I was drawn to it more.Katie: Makes it more tantalizing.Aimee: I think so. That could be it, but yeah, it's a real hobby for me. I really, really love it. I wish I had more money to purchase more. You can never have enough.Katie: You can never have too many.Aimee: I know. It's true.Katie: What do you think about boys wearing?Aimee: If they want to wear, then they should. Like it annoys me this horrible idea and concept of like men and boys have to be manly, like what is manly?For me, is an art. It really is. It's artistry. And, you know, if they want it, if they're feeling bad about their skin the way I feel bad about my skin, right. If I have pimples or spots, I'm lucky. I get to just cover up with like foundation and concealer, a bit of blusher. It makes me feel better.But, you know, if there's like a boy who has, you know, going through teenage years and he's got bad skin and he wants to cover up, and his macho friends catch him wearing it or whatever people in school catch him wearing it and it can be a really bad situation for him. And I think that is awful. It is really, really terrible. I think boys should wear as they like.I actually follow quite a lot of artists on social media. And I look at many, many pictures of different products and the art that they produce, and I follow male artists as well. And the skills they have are unbelievable, honestly. The blending skills.Katie: Their contouring.Aimee: Yeah.Katie: Oh my goodness.Aimee: The blending skills and like covering up, you know, basically just like covering up their whole face and putting a new face on top of it.Katie: It's pretty impressive.Aimee: It's really impressive. It's so amazing. I would really enjoy a lesson from some of the artists that I follow on different sites.Katie: Absolutely.

Katie: So what are three foods that you absolutely have to have that you can't live without?Gilda: I would say that I could not live without arepa. It's like my daily breakfast in Venezuela.Katie: What's that?Gilda: Arepa is made of corn flour, and it looks like a hamburger. So you put anything you want inside and it's very tasty. And I would say like 95 percent of Venezuelans eat arepas every day. Well, it's kind of like a high-carb diet in my country. So I need rice also for lunch, and bread. Bread is another thing. In the afternoon, a piece of bread, sweet bread with coffee is kind of like mandatory.Katie: So lots and lots of carbs in your diet.Gilda: Yes. What about you? What about in England?Katie: Well, English breakfast is not the healthiest of breakfast. It's like a big plate with fried eggs, fried sausages, hash browns, like hash potatoes, beans, just everything fried and everything delicious. And I would say that I can't live without that, but if I ate it every day, then I would probably not be able to leave my house because I would be so, so fat. But it's definitely a food that is in my top foods of all time. That's probably my favorite. But recently, I've been eating lots of tofu. It's breakfast.Gilda: Oh, okay.Katie: Yeah. So a little bit of tofu, a little bit of soy sauce just for breakfast, which is just – it's a bit of a boring breakfast. But it's really healthy, I guess. So I've been eating that a lot every day. So I probably can't live without that recently. And also, pizza. Pizza.Gilda: Oh, pizza. Yes, very good.Katie: Pizza. I think everyone can't live without pizza.Gilda: Yes.Katie: Pizza is the best. Pizza is definitely a food that I can't live without.Gilda: Yeah, I try to have pizza probably once a week, I would say. Yeah.Katie: What's your favorite topping?Gilda: That would be cheese.Katie: Cheese. Classic.Gilda: Definitely. Bacon.Katie: Cheese and bacon. Oh it sounds good.Gilda: Yes. Very, very tasty.Katie: Just cheese and bacon or anything else?Gilda: No, no. I'm going for anything actually but I will always need to have cheese and bacon on my pizza.Katie: Pizza is not pizza without cheese.Gilda: Yes. Yes.Katie: It has to have cheese.Gilda: So what else do you have? So you said tofu, pizza, what other food can you live without?Katie: Well, my grandma is part Italian. So we have lots of like pasta and lasagna in our family. So I try and eat – well, I try not to eat a lot of pasta because I'll get really fat. But pasta is definitely something that I can't live without. So good.Gilda: Yeah. Italian food is so good.Katie: Yeah. And again, lots of cheese.Gilda: Yeah. We also do a lot of lasagna but, well, we call it pasticho.Katie: Pasticho.Gilda: It's a different name but it's the same lasagna. And it's also very tasty.Katie: So good.Gilda: Yeah. But high fat food.Katie: So like a real like comfort food, isn't it? Lasagna.Gilda: Yeah. Yeah.Katie: So good. So what would you say is your comfort food?Gilda: My comfort food – that would be arepa, again. Yeah, definitely.Katie: You said you're going to have lots of like fillings in that.Gilda: Yes. So my favorite would be black beans with cheese inside. It sounds a little bit like a mix up of things but it's really, really tasty. We do eat a lot of black beans every day in Venezuela. It's very common. What about you?Katie: My comfort food, I can't eat it as much as I would like to these days but it's probably my mom's spaghetti Bolognese. So good. It's so good, like lots of pasta, lots of tomato, lots of herbs, lots of cheese.Gilda: Sounds good.Katie: It's amazing. I would like live with my parents if it meant I could have spaghetti Bolognese every day. So good. So tasty. I think it's the best

Katie: So what are three foods that you absolutely have to have that you can't live without?Gilda: I would say that I could not live without arepa. It's like my daily breakfast in Venezuela.Katie: What's that?Gilda: Arepa is made of corn flour, and it looks like a hamburger. So you put anything you want inside and it's very tasty. And I would say like 95 percent of Venezuelans eat arepas every day. Well, it's kind of like a high-carb diet in my country. So I need rice also for lunch, and bread. Bread is another thing. In the afternoon, a piece of bread, sweet bread with coffee is kind of like mandatory.Katie: So lots and lots of carbs in your diet.Gilda: Yes. What about you? What about in England?Katie: Well, English breakfast is not the healthiest of breakfast. It's like a big plate with fried eggs, fried sausages, hash browns, like hash potatoes, beans, just everything fried and everything delicious. And I would say that I can't live without that, but if I ate it every day, then I would probably not be able to leave my house because I would be so, so fat. But it's definitely a food that is in my top foods of all time. That's probably my favorite. But recently, I've been eating lots of tofu. It's breakfast.Gilda: Oh, okay.Katie: Yeah. So a little bit of tofu, a little bit of soy sauce just for breakfast, which is just – it's a bit of a boring breakfast. But it's really healthy, I guess. So I've been eating that a lot every day. So I probably can't live without that recently. And also, pizza. Pizza.Gilda: Oh, pizza. Yes, very good.Katie: Pizza. I think everyone can't live without pizza.Gilda: Yes.Katie: Pizza is the best. Pizza is definitely a food that I can't live without.Gilda: Yeah, I try to have pizza probably once a week, I would say. Yeah.Katie: What's your favorite topping?Gilda: That would be cheese.Katie: Cheese. Classic.Gilda: Definitely. Bacon.Katie: Cheese and bacon. Oh it sounds good.Gilda: Yes. Very, very tasty.Katie: Just cheese and bacon or anything else?Gilda: No, no. I'm going for anything actually but I will always need to have cheese and bacon on my pizza.Katie: Pizza is not pizza without cheese.Gilda: Yes. Yes.Katie: It has to have cheese.Gilda: So what else do you have? So you said tofu, pizza, what other food can you live without?Katie: Well, my grandma is part Italian. So we have lots of like pasta and lasagna in our family. So I try and eat – well, I try not to eat a lot of pasta because I'll get really fat. But pasta is definitely something that I can't live without. So good.Gilda: Yeah. Italian food is so good.Katie: Yeah. And again, lots of cheese.Gilda: Yeah. We also do a lot of lasagna but, well, we call it pasticho.Katie: Pasticho.Gilda: It's a different name but it's the same lasagna. And it's also very tasty.Katie: So good.Gilda: Yeah. But high fat food.Katie: So like a real like comfort food, isn't it? Lasagna.Gilda: Yeah. Yeah.Katie: So good. So what would you say is your comfort food?Gilda: My comfort food – that would be arepa, again. Yeah, definitely.Katie: You said you're going to have lots of like fillings in that.Gilda: Yes. So my favorite would be black beans with cheese inside. It sounds a little bit like a mix up of things but it's really, really tasty. We do eat a lot of black beans every day in Venezuela. It's very common. What about you?Katie: My comfort food, I can't eat it as much as I would like to these days but it's probably my mom's spaghetti Bolognese. So good. It's so good, like lots of pasta, lots of tomato, lots of herbs, lots of cheese.Gilda: Sounds good.Katie: It's amazing. I would like live with my parents if it meant I could have spaghetti Bolognese every day. So good. So tasty. I think it's the best

Katie: So what are three foods that you absolutely have to have that you can't live without?Gilda: I would say that I could not live without arepa. It's like my daily breakfast in Venezuela.Katie: What's that?Gilda: Arepa is made of corn flour, and it looks like a hamburger. So you put anything you want inside and it's very tasty. And I would say like 95 percent of Venezuelans eat arepas every day. Well, it's kind of like a high-carb diet in my country. So I need rice also for lunch, and bread. Bread is another thing. In the afternoon, a piece of bread, sweet bread with coffee is kind of like mandatory.Katie: So lots and lots of carbs in your diet.Gilda: Yes. What about you? What about in England?Katie: Well, English breakfast is not the healthiest of breakfast. It's like a big plate with fried eggs, fried sausages, hash browns, like hash potatoes, beans, just everything fried and everything delicious. And I would say that I can't live without that, but if I ate it every day, then I would probably not be able to leave my house because I would be so, so fat. But it's definitely a food that is in my top foods of all time. That's probably my favorite. But recently, I've been eating lots of tofu. It's breakfast.Gilda: Oh, okay.Katie: Yeah. So a little bit of tofu, a little bit of soy sauce just for breakfast, which is just – it's a bit of a boring breakfast. But it's really healthy, I guess. So I've been eating that a lot every day. So I probably can't live without that recently. And also, pizza. Pizza.Gilda: Oh, pizza. Yes, very good.Katie: Pizza. I think everyone can't live without pizza.Gilda: Yes.Katie: Pizza is the best. Pizza is definitely a food that I can't live without.Gilda: Yeah, I try to have pizza probably once a week, I would say. Yeah.Katie: What's your favorite topping?Gilda: That would be cheese.Katie: Cheese. Classic.Gilda: Definitely. Bacon.Katie: Cheese and bacon. Oh it sounds good.Gilda: Yes. Very, very tasty.Katie: Just cheese and bacon or anything else?Gilda: No, no. I'm going for anything actually but I will always need to have cheese and bacon on my pizza.Katie: Pizza is not pizza without cheese.Gilda: Yes. Yes.Katie: It has to have cheese.Gilda: So what else do you have? So you said tofu, pizza, what other food can you live without?Katie: Well, my grandma is part Italian. So we have lots of like pasta and lasagna in our family. So I try and eat – well, I try not to eat a lot of pasta because I'll get really fat. But pasta is definitely something that I can't live without. So good.Gilda: Yeah. Italian food is so good.Katie: Yeah. And again, lots of cheese.Gilda: Yeah. We also do a lot of lasagna but, well, we call it pasticho.Katie: Pasticho.Gilda: It's a different name but it's the same lasagna. And it's also very tasty.Katie: So good.Gilda: Yeah. But high fat food.Katie: So like a real like comfort food, isn't it? Lasagna.Gilda: Yeah. Yeah.Katie: So good. So what would you say is your comfort food?Gilda: My comfort food – that would be arepa, again. Yeah, definitely.Katie: You said you're going to have lots of like fillings in that.Gilda: Yes. So my favorite would be black beans with cheese inside. It sounds a little bit like a mix up of things but it's really, really tasty. We do eat a lot of black beans every day in Venezuela. It's very common. What about you?Katie: My comfort food, I can't eat it as much as I would like to these days but it's probably my mom's spaghetti Bolognese. So good. It's so good, like lots of pasta, lots of tomato, lots of herbs, lots of cheese.Gilda: Sounds good.Katie: It's amazing. I would like live with my parents if it meant I could have spaghetti Bolognese every day. So good. So tasty. I think it's the best

Aimee: So why do you think Britain never wins? Is it because their songs are always terrible?Katie: Well, I mean, I disagree as a British person. I think the songs are always awesome, of course. But usually, how people win Eurovision is when you want to vote for a country, you have to ring up. And people always vote for the countries that are next door to them. So countries that are close to them. So the UK really only has Ireland next door. So we only really ever get votes from Ireland. We're not close to any other countries.Aimee: Not friendly.Katie: Not friendly.Aimee: Yeah. I guess that's it.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's not physical closeness, it's like emotional closeness as well, isn't it?Katie: We're not either. We're not physically close or emotionally close to any countries in Europe, so.Aimee: That's true.Katie: We don't get any points.Aimee: So which countries typically manage to get a lot of votes then?Katie: Countries that are in the middle, that have countries all around them. So like Austria has lots of countries surrounding it. Germany has lots of countries surrounding it. Yeah. England just doesn't have a chance of winning. The UK will never win Eurovision song contest ever again.Aimee: Unless they change their foreign policy, perhaps.Katie: Or unless we just move the entire country in the middle of Europe.Aimee: Well, that's not going to happen, isn't it?Katie: We can dream. We can dream.Aimee: So it's not possible to vote for your own country?Katie: No. You can't vote for your own country. You have to vote for any other country except for yours.Aimee: Oh, I see.Katie: Otherwise, Russia would just win it every time. Russia is so big.Aimee: That's true. I didn't think about that. It has a massive population. So how does it work exactly? You're sitting at home. You're watching the TV, and then you have to pick up the phone and call, is that it?Katie: Yeah. When everyone sung their song, they will show you telephone numbers for each country. And you have to choose the country that you liked the best. And then you call that number, and that counts as one vote for that country. And then the country that gets the most votes gets 12 points. And then the next country down gets 10 points and then 8 points, all the way down to 1 point. But a lot of countries in Eurovision sometimes get 0 points for the entire show.Aimee: Oh dear.Katie: The UK often gets 0 points.Aimee: Do they?Katie: Yes.Aimee: That's embarrassing, isn't it?Katie: Very embarrassing. Very embarrassing.Aimee: And what is the hosting language?Katie: Well, they always speak in English. And usually, the host country will also speak in their language. So if it's France, they'll speak in French. If it's Germany, they'll speak in German. But when they are announcing the points, they'll speak in English and French.Aimee: English and French only?Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Oh that's interesting. And I assume that each individual country who's watching the show has their own presenters speaking in their native languages though.Katie: Yes. Yes.Aimee: To help translate everything.Katie: They have their own commentators who will talk throughout the entire show and explain everything.Aimee: Okay. Wow. It's such a massive scale, isn't it?Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Really huge.Katie: It's the best event of the year. My favorite thing ever.Aimee: So since you can't vote for the UK, then who do you normally vote for?Katie: Well, I normally vote for the country that I thought was the most interesting, which is how I think you should vote in Eurovision. Seeing that it's a singing competition then I think it should be judged on who is singing the best or has the best song or who has the most exciting outfit. But yeah, it changes every – it depends on who I think was the best.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a good, fair strategy.Katie: I think so. I think the rest of Europe should do that as well.Aimee: Yes. I guess they should.

Aimee: So why do you think Britain never wins? Is it because their songs are always terrible?Katie: Well, I mean, I disagree as a British person. I think the songs are always awesome, of course. But usually, how people win Eurovision is when you want to vote for a country, you have to ring up. And people always vote for the countries that are next door to them. So countries that are close to them. So the UK really only has Ireland next door. So we only really ever get votes from Ireland. We're not close to any other countries.Aimee: Not friendly.Katie: Not friendly.Aimee: Yeah. I guess that's it.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's not physical closeness, it's like emotional closeness as well, isn't it?Katie: We're not either. We're not physically close or emotionally close to any countries in Europe, so.Aimee: That's true.Katie: We don't get any points.Aimee: So which countries typically manage to get a lot of votes then?Katie: Countries that are in the middle, that have countries all around them. So like Austria has lots of countries surrounding it. Germany has lots of countries surrounding it. Yeah. England just doesn't have a chance of winning. The UK will never win Eurovision song contest ever again.Aimee: Unless they change their foreign policy, perhaps.Katie: Or unless we just move the entire country in the middle of Europe.Aimee: Well, that's not going to happen, isn't it?Katie: We can dream. We can dream.Aimee: So it's not possible to vote for your own country?Katie: No. You can't vote for your own country. You have to vote for any other country except for yours.Aimee: Oh, I see.Katie: Otherwise, Russia would just win it every time. Russia is so big.Aimee: That's true. I didn't think about that. It has a massive population. So how does it work exactly? You're sitting at home. You're watching the TV, and then you have to pick up the phone and call, is that it?Katie: Yeah. When everyone sung their song, they will show you telephone numbers for each country. And you have to choose the country that you liked the best. And then you call that number, and that counts as one vote for that country. And then the country that gets the most votes gets 12 points. And then the next country down gets 10 points and then 8 points, all the way down to 1 point. But a lot of countries in Eurovision sometimes get 0 points for the entire show.Aimee: Oh dear.Katie: The UK often gets 0 points.Aimee: Do they?Katie: Yes.Aimee: That's embarrassing, isn't it?Katie: Very embarrassing. Very embarrassing.Aimee: And what is the hosting language?Katie: Well, they always speak in English. And usually, the host country will also speak in their language. So if it's France, they'll speak in French. If it's Germany, they'll speak in German. But when they are announcing the points, they'll speak in English and French.Aimee: English and French only?Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Oh that's interesting. And I assume that each individual country who's watching the show has their own presenters speaking in their native languages though.Katie: Yes. Yes.Aimee: To help translate everything.Katie: They have their own commentators who will talk throughout the entire show and explain everything.Aimee: Okay. Wow. It's such a massive scale, isn't it?Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Really huge.Katie: It's the best event of the year. My favorite thing ever.Aimee: So since you can't vote for the UK, then who do you normally vote for?Katie: Well, I normally vote for the country that I thought was the most interesting, which is how I think you should vote in Eurovision. Seeing that it's a singing competition then I think it should be judged on who is singing the best or has the best song or who has the most exciting outfit. But yeah, it changes every – it depends on who I think was the best.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a good, fair strategy.Katie: I think so. I think the rest of Europe should do that as well.Aimee: Yes. I guess they should.

Aimee: So why do you think Britain never wins? Is it because their songs are always terrible?Katie: Well, I mean, I disagree as a British person. I think the songs are always awesome, of course. But usually, how people win Eurovision is when you want to vote for a country, you have to ring up. And people always vote for the countries that are next door to them. So countries that are close to them. So the UK really only has Ireland next door. So we only really ever get votes from Ireland. We're not close to any other countries.Aimee: Not friendly.Katie: Not friendly.Aimee: Yeah. I guess that's it.Katie: Yeah.Aimee: It's not physical closeness, it's like emotional closeness as well, isn't it?Katie: We're not either. We're not physically close or emotionally close to any countries in Europe, so.Aimee: That's true.Katie: We don't get any points.Aimee: So which countries typically manage to get a lot of votes then?Katie: Countries that are in the middle, that have countries all around them. So like Austria has lots of countries surrounding it. Germany has lots of countries surrounding it. Yeah. England just doesn't have a chance of winning. The UK will never win Eurovision song contest ever again.Aimee: Unless they change their foreign policy, perhaps.Katie: Or unless we just move the entire country in the middle of Europe.Aimee: Well, that's not going to happen, isn't it?Katie: We can dream. We can dream.Aimee: So it's not possible to vote for your own country?Katie: No. You can't vote for your own country. You have to vote for any other country except for yours.Aimee: Oh, I see.Katie: Otherwise, Russia would just win it every time. Russia is so big.Aimee: That's true. I didn't think about that. It has a massive population. So how does it work exactly? You're sitting at home. You're watching the TV, and then you have to pick up the phone and call, is that it?Katie: Yeah. When everyone sung their song, they will show you telephone numbers for each country. And you have to choose the country that you liked the best. And then you call that number, and that counts as one vote for that country. And then the country that gets the most votes gets 12 points. And then the next country down gets 10 points and then 8 points, all the way down to 1 point. But a lot of countries in Eurovision sometimes get 0 points for the entire show.Aimee: Oh dear.Katie: The UK often gets 0 points.Aimee: Do they?Katie: Yes.Aimee: That's embarrassing, isn't it?Katie: Very embarrassing. Very embarrassing.Aimee: And what is the hosting language?Katie: Well, they always speak in English. And usually, the host country will also speak in their language. So if it's France, they'll speak in French. If it's Germany, they'll speak in German. But when they are announcing the points, they'll speak in English and French.Aimee: English and French only?Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Oh that's interesting. And I assume that each individual country who's watching the show has their own presenters speaking in their native languages though.Katie: Yes. Yes.Aimee: To help translate everything.Katie: They have their own commentators who will talk throughout the entire show and explain everything.Aimee: Okay. Wow. It's such a massive scale, isn't it?Katie: Yeah.Aimee: Really huge.Katie: It's the best event of the year. My favorite thing ever.Aimee: So since you can't vote for the UK, then who do you normally vote for?Katie: Well, I normally vote for the country that I thought was the most interesting, which is how I think you should vote in Eurovision. Seeing that it's a singing competition then I think it should be judged on who is singing the best or has the best song or who has the most exciting outfit. But yeah, it changes every – it depends on who I think was the best.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a good, fair strategy.Katie: I think so. I think the rest of Europe should do that as well.Aimee: Yes. I guess they should.

Aimee: Hey, Katie, did you hear that Australia are rejoining the Song Contest?Katie: I did. It's a really big news. Really big news.Aimee: So can you tell us a little bit about? What is it exactly?Katie: is basically a music competition that happens every year in May. And countries from all over Europe have an entry in the competition.Aimee: Right.Katie: So big, big music singing competition.Aimee: And it's Euro…Katie:, yeah.Aimee: Okay.Katie:, and yeah, every single country in Europe send somebody to sing in the competition.Aimee: Okay.Katie: And all of Europe watches it, and all of Europe votes for a winner, and it's huge. It's huge.Aimee: It does sound huge, continental competition.Katie: Big battle with music.Aimee: And where is it usually hosted?Katie: It's hosted in the country of the previous year's winner.Aimee: Right. So this year then, do you know where it was?Katie: I don't remember who won it last year, but the previous year, two years ago, it was won by someone from Austria.Aimee: Okay.Katie: So last year, the competition was in Austria.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a wonderful event for the hosting country.Katie: Yeah. And I'm from the UK, and the UK hasn't won it in such a long time. And I really, really want to win because I wanted to go and see a live competition.Aimee: Right. So over the – you mentioned that you're such a big fan. Over thehistory, do you have any personal highlights?Katie: Probably my favorite entry was from ages and ages ago, before I was even born by an English entry called Bucks Fizz.Aimee: Okay.Katie: They were really awesome. They were singing a great song, and then suddenly, halfway through the song, the boys ripped the girls' skirt off.Aimee: Oh.Katie: Not that way. But they were wearing a long dress and then they were suddenly wearing a skirt. And it was amazing.Aimee: They kind of costume changed then.Katie: Yeah, costume change. And it happened in the '70s, I think, '70s orAimee: '80s, maybe?Katie: Yeah. And at that time, it was probably the most exciting entry in ever.Aimee: Oh really.Katie: It's very exciting.Aimee: A real shock.Katie: Real shock. A big costume change, big drama.Aimee: And how was the song?Katie: Eh. The song was okay. No one remembers the song. Everyone remembers the skirts.Aimee: Okay. So I take it, they didn't win then?Katie: I don't think so.Aimee: Did they?Katie: I don't, I don't know. I can't remember. Also, I remember the costumes but not if they won or not.Aimee: Yeah. Not the song.Katie: Isn't that funny?Aimee: Costumes, too are important.

Aimee: Hey, Katie, did you hear that Australia are rejoining the Song Contest?Katie: I did. It's a really big news. Really big news.Aimee: So can you tell us a little bit about? What is it exactly?Katie: is basically a music competition that happens every year in May. And countries from all over Europe have an entry in the competition.Aimee: Right.Katie: So big, big music singing competition.Aimee: And it's Euro…Katie:, yeah.Aimee: Okay.Katie:, and yeah, every single country in Europe send somebody to sing in the competition.Aimee: Okay.Katie: And all of Europe watches it, and all of Europe votes for a winner, and it's huge. It's huge.Aimee: It does sound huge, continental competition.Katie: Big battle with music.Aimee: And where is it usually hosted?Katie: It's hosted in the country of the previous year's winner.Aimee: Right. So this year then, do you know where it was?Katie: I don't remember who won it last year, but the previous year, two years ago, it was won by someone from Austria.Aimee: Okay.Katie: So last year, the competition was in Austria.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a wonderful event for the hosting country.Katie: Yeah. And I'm from the UK, and the UK hasn't won it in such a long time. And I really, really want to win because I wanted to go and see a live competition.Aimee: Right. So over the – you mentioned that you're such a big fan. Over thehistory, do you have any personal highlights?Katie: Probably my favorite entry was from ages and ages ago, before I was even born by an English entry called Bucks Fizz.Aimee: Okay.Katie: They were really awesome. They were singing a great song, and then suddenly, halfway through the song, the boys ripped the girls' skirt off.Aimee: Oh.Katie: Not that way. But they were wearing a long dress and then they were suddenly wearing a skirt. And it was amazing.Aimee: They kind of costume changed then.Katie: Yeah, costume change. And it happened in the '70s, I think, '70s orAimee: '80s, maybe?Katie: Yeah. And at that time, it was probably the most exciting entry in ever.Aimee: Oh really.Katie: It's very exciting.Aimee: A real shock.Katie: Real shock. A big costume change, big drama.Aimee: And how was the song?Katie: Eh. The song was okay. No one remembers the song. Everyone remembers the skirts.Aimee: Okay. So I take it, they didn't win then?Katie: I don't think so.Aimee: Did they?Katie: I don't, I don't know. I can't remember. Also, I remember the costumes but not if they won or not.Aimee: Yeah. Not the song.Katie: Isn't that funny?Aimee: Costumes, too are important.

Aimee: Hey, Katie, did you hear that Australia are rejoining the Song Contest?Katie: I did. It's a really big news. Really big news.Aimee: So can you tell us a little bit about? What is it exactly?Katie: is basically a music competition that happens every year in May. And countries from all over Europe have an entry in the competition.Aimee: Right.Katie: So big, big music singing competition.Aimee: And it's Euro…Katie:, yeah.Aimee: Okay.Katie:, and yeah, every single country in Europe send somebody to sing in the competition.Aimee: Okay.Katie: And all of Europe watches it, and all of Europe votes for a winner, and it's huge. It's huge.Aimee: It does sound huge, continental competition.Katie: Big battle with music.Aimee: And where is it usually hosted?Katie: It's hosted in the country of the previous year's winner.Aimee: Right. So this year then, do you know where it was?Katie: I don't remember who won it last year, but the previous year, two years ago, it was won by someone from Austria.Aimee: Okay.Katie: So last year, the competition was in Austria.Aimee: Right. That sounds like a wonderful event for the hosting country.Katie: Yeah. And I'm from the UK, and the UK hasn't won it in such a long time. And I really, really want to win because I wanted to go and see a live competition.Aimee: Right. So over the – you mentioned that you're such a big fan. Over thehistory, do you have any personal highlights?Katie: Probably my favorite entry was from ages and ages ago, before I was even born by an English entry called Bucks Fizz.Aimee: Okay.Katie: They were really awesome. They were singing a great song, and then suddenly, halfway through the song, the boys ripped the girls' skirt off.Aimee: Oh.Katie: Not that way. But they were wearing a long dress and then they were suddenly wearing a skirt. And it was amazing.Aimee: They kind of costume changed then.Katie: Yeah, costume change. And it happened in the '70s, I think, '70s orAimee: '80s, maybe?Katie: Yeah. And at that time, it was probably the most exciting entry in ever.Aimee: Oh really.Katie: It's very exciting.Aimee: A real shock.Katie: Real shock. A big costume change, big drama.Aimee: And how was the song?Katie: Eh. The song was okay. No one remembers the song. Everyone remembers the skirts.Aimee: Okay. So I take it, they didn't win then?Katie: I don't think so.Aimee: Did they?Katie: I don't, I don't know. I can't remember. Also, I remember the costumes but not if they won or not.Aimee: Yeah. Not the song.Katie: Isn't that funny?Aimee: Costumes, too are important.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

Todd: Hey Katie. I'm having a party, Super Bowl party at my house on Sunday in a couple of weeks. Would you like to come over?Katie: Okay. But I have absolutely no idea what a Super Bowl is.Todd: Well, you know, the Super Bowl is a big sporting event and we have it once a year. But it's okay if you don't know anything about American football because actually, the Super Bowl is kind of like our unofficial holiday.Katie: Okay.Todd: Yeah. So what happens is, is everybody comes over to somebody's house, and you have a big party and you watch the game but nobody really watches the game. There's lots of other stuff going on so it's should be good.Katie: Do you have like Super Bowl food that you eat?Todd: Exactly. Exactly. So it's kind of like a big feast. So we'll have, you know, like hamburgers and stuff we'll barbecue. And we'll have lots of like chips and dip and stuff like that. So you don't have to bring any food but it's potluck. So if you do want to bring something, yeah, I would recommend it.Katie: Do you have to be like a supporter of one of the teams in the final?Todd: No. And actually, the game is not for a couple of weeks so we don't know who the two final teams are going to be.Katie: All right.Todd: They still have to decide, but actually, there's a bunch of things that have nothing to do with football on the Super Bowl that you'll probably like. The first is, they have the halftime show. You may have heard about the Super Bowl halftime show.Katie: Okay.Todd: You like music, right?Katie: I love music.Todd: Right. So they always have a really big musical act. And actually this year, I don't remember who it is. I'll have to check but it's usually somebody like Bruno Mars or U2 or somebody like that.Katie: I think last year, it was Katie Perry, was it not?Todd: It might have been. Yeah. But it's always a really, really big person. Another thing that's really cool about the Super Bowl is the commercials. So the commercials, you know, the companies spend a lot of money on the commercials, and they're usually really good. So the commercials—the people are often more into the commercials than the game.Katie: Okay.Todd: Especially if one team is kind of – if it's a lopsided win. So yeah, so the commercials are fun.Katie: What kind of commercials do they have?Todd: You know, like companies like Pepsi or Coke or like really big name companies.Katie: So the really big ones.Todd: Yeah. They'll spend like millions and millions of dollars. These are usually the most expensive commercials because it's one local game and one local audience. Like the World Cup is a more watched event but the commercials are regional for all the different countries, whereas the Super Bowl, the commercials are just for Americans.Katie: Yeah.Todd: So yeah, these are usually the most expensive commercials like around the world. So they're usually really well done.Katie: Is it just American teams in the Super Bowl?Todd: Yes, it's very, you know, Americanized name, I'd say. But, you know, like I said, the game is really not that important. But there is one way that you can make money.Katie: Okay. I'm interested.Todd: So what happens is, we have like a pool and you can draw numbers. And like you don't have to know anything about football but you can have like, you know, draw numbers for the first person to score a touchdown, or the first player to get a penalty or things like that. And you just fill out the chart and then if your player gets that, then you can get money.So you have to contribute. You have to pay like 10 bucks to play. But then it's in the pool and then you could win money at different points during the game.Katie: Have you ever won at the Super Bowl before?Todd: Yeah. It's kind of like how it works out where everybody wins a little money and everybody loses a little money. So, you know, gambling technically is illegal but…Katie: Of course.Todd: Yeah. But it's like just one of those things that everybody does.Katie: It's not for big money.Todd: No.Katie: Just a little bit of money.Todd: Just a little bit of money.Katie: So it's okay.Todd: Just to have fun. Yeah. So, and then, once I find out what teams are in the finals then I'll tell you about the colors. And it's usually best that you choose one team that you're going to support.Katie: Okay.Todd: So I'll fill you in about who the teams are later and all that.Katie: Right.Todd: So are you willing to come?Katie: Yeah. Sounds like fun.Todd: Okay, cool.Katie: I'm in.Todd: All right. So it's going to be at my house at 3:00. So if you can show up around 2:00-ish.Katie: Should I bring some food?Todd: You can. Like you can bring some type of maybe salad or like a bean dish or something like that if you like. But we'll – like the main food, we'll provide. We'll have pizza. We'll have burgers. Oh, and it's BYOB.Katie: Okay.Todd: So if you want to drink, you have to bring your own alcohol.Katie: All right.Todd: But we will have some beers and stuff. Do you drink?Katie: Sometimes.Todd: Okay. Cool.Katie: Like tenths of the time.Todd: All right. So see you there. Glad you can come.Katie: No worries.

It's no secret that society has seen an uptick in divorces since the start of the pandemic, but there have also been some silver linings in this unlikely space. Katie Mazurek is a Bozeman, Montana-based attorney with Element Law Group. Focusing on family law, Katie brings a different approach to the way she guides clients through the divorce process. In fact, she recently co-authored a book called, Divorce Better Together, with a former client who helped shape a more collaborative, team approach that is now leveraging technology like Zoom to facilitate her work. Mark was able to sit down with Katie to talk about her approach, her book and how her practice has evolved to help clients discover a healthier way through this often messy process.   Transcript:  MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE: Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager with Alps. Welcome to Alps In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And I'm excited about today's podcast. I have someone that some other folks at Alps had the pleasure of meeting in person and was so impressed. They said, "Mark, we've got to reach out and have some discussions here for the podcast." And I absolutely agreed. Today I have with me, Katie Mazurek, and I believe Katie you're practicing in Bozeman. Is that correct? KATIE MAZUREK:  Yes. I practice in Bozeman and we have offices in Helena as well. MARK: Okay. Very good. When I first sort of reached out and looked a little bit about what you do and who you are, I was struck by the name of your law firm. Well, actually, before we get to that, let's take just a few moments, and can you share a little bit about yourself to our listeners? What do you feel is important that they know about you? KATIE: Well, thank you so much for having me today. I'm really excited to be able to talk with you. I think one of the things that's really important for people to understand about me is that I am a person who really understands pain. I've been through some significant things, including my parents divorced when I was 15, a cancer diagnosis when I was 33, when I had two kids, and right, actually when I started Element. KATIE: And so my whole kind of purpose in life is to help people through their suffering. And so that's probably what I'd want people to understand the most, because I know that interfacing with a lawyer can be really scary and really overwhelming and really foreign. And I would hope that if people can see me as just another human who understands what they're going through, that that makes them feel a lot more comfortable and normalizes their pain a little bit. MARK: And may me ask you, I know that at least the bulk of what you do, if I'm understanding correctly is divorce work, but are there other practice areas? Or are you exclusively in the divorce space? KATIE: We're primarily in the family law space. So divorce, custody parenting. We obviously help, if our clients come to us and they're comfortable with us and they want us to help with the business or something like that, some minor estate planning, we do those things as well. MARK: Okay. Very good. And again, I was struck about the name of your group, Element Law Group. I suspect there's a story here. I'd love to hear it. KATIE: So Element came about, when I created the firm, I wanted our clients to have a very different experience than the typical. And what felt at the time was pretty antiquated law centric, law firm experience. I wanted this to be really based on the family and the individual. And so that the term element came from the idea that we're all made of the same basic things. On an elemental level, who are we? Well we're people who need love and care and support and guidance. And so the name Element came out and I think it identifies or signifies, who we are pretty well. MARK: I love that. That really speaks to me too. That is just very cool. I think that's awesome. KATIE: Thank you. MARK: Can we take a moment, in my... We are living in really unusual times, there's discussions in terms of COVID and all of this happening, geopolitically all over the world here. And in other words, it's not just COVID, but these 2020 is a crazy time. And there are some descriptions of looking at this as sort of, we're entering a new normal, and I'm not one that buys into that. I think what we're going through is a period of rapid change, dramatic change, but change is always present. But we are in a crazy time where change is just, wow. When I think about the divorce space, the family law space, are you finding that these times... Is that changing? Are the needs of your clients... How would you describe what's happening from your perspective? KATIE: Sadly, there's been a big uptake in our business, and we've all talked a lot about what the causes and the factors would be that have caused this real surge. And to the best of our guessing, we think it's this stress and the uncertainty and the fear. And it's just kind of in a weak relationship, it's created the pressure point that's broken the system. But interestingly, it's also, I think, a bigger conversation about what's happened to the practice of law with this COVID and having to adapt. And I think it's, in some ways can be looked at as a really exciting time because it's forcing the law and practitioners to come into the modern era as far as how we're practicing and how we're interfacing with each other. And that's something that Element has been pushing for a long time is to say, "Look, there's all these technological pieces that can make our lives easier and should make our lives easier." And I'm kind of excited to see that happening on the larger scale. MARK: I know you have written a book, I believe it's called, Divorce Better Together, and you coauthored this, is this with your partner? KATIE: This is with a former client of mine. MARK: Oh, really? KATIE: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rob Irizarry. MARK: Wow. How did this come about? KATIE: Well, Rob started as a client in the collaborative process and for people who are the uninitiated, the collaborative process is a team approach to a divorce. We use two lawyers, a neutral mental health person and a neutral financial person. And that creates a professional team that helps a married couple divorce in a more amicable, fully supported way. KATIE: So Rob was my client in a collaborative setting. And unfortunately he was actually... He says he was my first failure. He and his wife fell out of the collaborative process pretty early on. And so he was pushed into the litigation path and his experience there and mirrors my experience with the compare, contrast the litigation world with the collaborative world. And he felt very passionately about the importance of collaborative and the value of collaborative. And he and I struck up a friendship and have been very close friends ever since, and he wants to change the world like I do. And so we coauthored this book. MARK: Is the book somewhat of a description of how you practice in your space? Is it a guide book of where you'd like to see the law go? Can you fill me in a little bit more about? KATIE: Sure. It's a very short, easy read and the intent is just to get collaborative in the minds of people who are starting to contemplate which divorce process is right for them. So it really is the personal stories. Rob's personal story of being in the collaborative process and then litigation and my personal story of watching my parents really suffer through a nasty litigated divorce and what that did to my family. And then now as a practitioner practicing collaborative. So it does explain the process. It's definitely informational, but it's also meant to connect with the reader on that kind of emotional journey and experience of divorce. MARK: I liked what you were talking about in terms of looking at COVID and seeing this in so many ways as an opportunity, are you finding, first courts are closed, is this an opportunity to really accelerate the collaborative process? Are you able to do more of this? Can we sort of flesh out what's happening? KATIE: Oh, sure. I think the collaborative process is always going to... It's so flexible and it can adapt to whatever situation that we need. And what we have found is really interesting is that the collaborative sessions that are held through Zoom or whatever video conferencing platform, they're really great. Because there's the side channels and things that the practitioners can type to each other privately, I can type to my client privately. And so I wouldn't say that necessarily in terms of volume or anything, we still have the access that we need on the litigation front to the courts, but the whole drive of collaborative is to put the divorce process in the family's hands. And certainly these times are a call to action for families to really embrace that opportunity where it exists. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. Do you find... I can appreciate, and I really need to go pick up your book and by the way, I believe it's available... Just to, if others are interested on Amazon? Or it's not? KATIE: Amazon. Mm-hmm (affirmative). MARK: Yes. And I just want to be clear for everybody Divorce Better Together. And it's by Katie Mazurek. And I'm sorry, the name of your coauthor again? KATIE: Rob Irizarry. MARK: Rob Irizarry. So folks, just to let you know it's out there. Do you find... I'll go back and say, my wife and I we're both second marriages. So we've been through the process. My wife's divorce was a litigated divorce that went all the way to the State Supreme Court. And it was just one of these crazy [crosstalk 00:00:11:17], horrible kinds of things. Mine was more of a... We didn't use the collaborative process, but we did sit down between the two of us and really work through most of the issues. MARK: And honestly just had one lawyer between the two of us, be mostly a scrivener, we stayed in the ethical bounds, to put it that way, say the lawyer that assisted us. And I think we divorced well. I would say post-divorce, there were some issues that I think a collaborative process might've helped us avoid, but I share all that because what I'm curious about is, is part of what you're trying to accomplish with the book... Are you writing to lawyers or you're writing to people? You see where I'm going? Is the challenge here to create awareness and appreciation of the collaborative process to the clients? Are we trying to sell this process, you see? KATIE: We're trying to educate people, families really. So parents and married couples that this process is available and that this process is available at any point in your journey. And so, like in your case, if there were... Did you have children? MARK: Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). KATIE: Okay. [crosstalk 00:12:58]. And maybe I don't mean to pry. MARK: No, it's fine. KATIE: So it could be, we see people who have gone through the litigated process and then they have these children whose needs inevitably change. And the dynamic inevitably changes. And we have new parties coming on as significant others and things like that. And so they can adopt the collaborative process after a divorce and just get the support they need around some of these bigger decisions or even smaller decisions. But really what it comes down to, and I think most relationships come down to this, is communication. And so you have a team that can help facilitate and model healthy communication. And then also give you good information to make better decisions. MARK: Do you find most people when they have an opportunity to learn a bit about this process and what you were doing, are they pretty receptive? Are you pretty successful moving people in this direction? Are you finding some resistance to it? Does it work better for some and not others? KATIE: So the collaborative process was started in Minnesota about 28, 29 years ago. In 2013, two practitioners, myself included, went to Arizona to get trained in this. And since then, we've cultivated the collaborative community here in Montana. And now there's collaborative practitioners all over the state. And what I've noticed since bringing it here way back in 2013 is that collaborative is the answer that clients were already for, but didn't know existed. KATIE: And to further answer your question, absolutely, there are people that are better suited for collaborative cases than others. But I don't want to kind of perpetuate a misconception, which is that couples who are high conflict or when there's difficult issues in a case that they're not appropriate for collaborative somehow, that's been proven false repeatedly. Really what it comes down to in my experience is the strength and experience level of the team that is helping the family get through this. MARK: So it seems what I'm hearing is, part of what's going on here and part of your interest initially, it's the collaborative process is going to be less painful, more positive, better outcomes. So you started, you want to try to help people through pain. And a divorce process is certainly a painful process. I've never seen a situation that was just roses all the way through. Do you find as a practitioner using this process, comparing yourself to the traditional divorce lawyer that does a lot of litigation, is there a wellness component to this is? Would you encourage other lawyers... Because to me, I like how you've described some of this and looking even now in the midst of just this global pandemic, looking at an opportunity, and I think that's such an incredible way to move forward through any change. Always looking... We can't change what has happened. All we can do is define ourselves by how we respond to it. But with courts being closed, is there a message here? Would you have a message to other practitioners and say, "Look, this can create less pain for you as a practitioner too. And your wellness can help others." I'm I understanding this correctly? KATIE: Well, I think so. I struggled a lot when I started with litigating family law cases, because what's a win in a family law case. Is it a dollar award? Is it more time with the child? It's really kind of a, almost a [inaudible 00:17:46] concept to think about it, when you're talking about human life. And so I really struggled with like, "What am I doing here? What value am I bringing? What is the long-term outcome for these families? When I've just put on this testimony, that's just biting and terrible towards another party. This is what we have to do or I feel what you have to do." KATIE: And so the collaborative practice is the hardest work I've ever done, but it is far and away, the best I've ever felt about something that I'm putting forward in the world. When you go to these conferences, you see mostly practitioners in their 50s and 60s. And the reason for that is they just got to a point where they couldn't do the litigation, the burden of litigation, the toxicity of litigation. And so they had to do something different. And I want to be clear. It's very hard work. It's very hard work. Because at least with litigation, you can say, "Hey, that's not what the court's going to consider. We're not going to talk about that. I'm sorry that happened to you." And kind of have the appropriate amount of empathy, but move the case forward because you're working within that strict legal lens. MARK: Exactly. KATIE: And then the collaborative process it's, the law is just a framework and what the family builds within that is completely up to them. And so I kind of, the analogy I use is, look, the law, the framework is going to say, "You need to build a car. And that car has to have four wheels, an engine and steering wheel." And whether you build a porch or a dump truck, that's up to you. And so that kind of freedom for us practitioners who are used to being in these really tight roles that can be really uncomfortable for us. And that's why we have a team. MARK: And so what drives the... You say this is the hardest you've ever worked. It's clear just, the audience is just listening, but we're viewing each other here and you're very passionate about this. It seems to be very fulfilling to you, very important, but what is the challenge here? Why is this so hard? Is it trying to keep people invested in the process? Is it the emotions of all that's going on? Is it crazy tangential issues that the traditional path isn't necessarily going to deal with? Why is this such a challenge? And challenge have to be a bad thing, this is what I'm trying to get across to our listeners here. But why is this so hard? KATIE: Well, you're taking two people who are in conflict and you're asking them to listen to each other, to meaningfully listen to each other and to communicate better. And that is exceptionally hard. People come into the divorce process with a feeling of scarcity, of, "Oh my goodness, I'm losing, I'm changing." We took one whole, and we're making it into two, which is never as much as half. If that makes sense. MARK: Yes. It does. It does. KATIE: Right? So because you lose the economy of efficiency and going into two households and things like that. So a real scarcity mindset, and it's very hard to get positive work out of people who are rotating around the access of fear and not enough and uncertainty and, "What's going to happen to me?" And so in the collaborative space, we really meet them in that scarcity feeling, whereas in a litigation setting, I can just say, "Ah, I know that that thing happened to you, and I'm so sorry, but that's not on the view or the horizon for the court." MARK: Right. Right. KATIE: And so we make space for all of that in the collaborative model, and that's what's kind of messy and hard. And when you're trying to help people move forward through that, it's a lot. MARK: So how do you stay sane? KATIE: Right. That's such a good question. Well, we lean on the mental health professional quite a bit, and who helps us understand like, okay, this is in your box and this isn't. Part of the really hard thing about collaborative is that I feel like I'm invested in the family and in a much different way than I am in litigation, just by virtue of the differences of the process. And so I guess I'm still working on that, with every single case it's different and I'm still figuring it out. But it's always been worth the effort, the outcomes are really incredible. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. I want to be very respectful of your time here and appreciate the chat we've had. I don't mean to put you on the spot and I think you're up for this. We have, obviously, the listening base here are all legal professionals. I'd ask for two comments maybe, in terms of closing comments. One would be, what would you have to say to encourage lawyers that are more focused on the traditional litigated model? What would you say to them, say, be open to this? Why should they move in this direction, at least at times? And then the other piece, or the second half of this would be, there are lots of lawyers, because not all clients are to want to do this. So still need to stay in the litigated space. Are there learnings or takeaways from your experience in the collaborative space that might be beneficial to help if you jump back into the litigated space. And any other closing comments you'd have, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on those two sides. KATIE: The most important lesson that I've learned about working alongside the traditional litigated attorneys is to have a relationship and try to have an understanding between the two very different practices. So my first part of that would be an invitation that, if you're a litigator and you're listening to this and you're thinking, "Oh, that is never something I would do." That's fine. The world absolutely needs really strong litigators who are responsible- MARK: Absolutely. KATIE: ... in handling families. But also let's go to coffee and let's talk about what I do so that we can compliment one another. But for the practitioners who are thinking about, who see litigation, the issues with litigation, and maybe have some heartache of their own about how they're practicing, the collaborative doors is always open and you can get trained relatively inexpensively and join a practice group and try it out. And maybe it's for you, maybe it's not, but it's still a great way. You're going to get some [inaudible 00:26:06]. You're going to get some really great information. KATIE: It's going to challenge your worldview, which kind of goes to your second point, which is we address these family law cases in a very lawyer centric, law centric way. And what I've really learned is one, active listening. I've learned to ask more questions and dive deeper into the answers. And I am shocked at how much more I've learned and repeatedly have used that skill in my litigation practice, because the last thing any of us wants is to get up in front of a judge and be in the middle of a hearing or a trial and get caught flat footed. And when we make that investment and time and energy into our clients, I think it yields a better outcome and a better experience for them overall. KATIE: So I would say that that's kind of the compliment between the two worlds and I don't see them as completely divergent and separate and apart, I see them as working together and kind of the left hand and the right hand. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And your comment of active listening really strikes a chord with me. I think at times it's too easy, regardless of what sandbox we're in, as lawyers in terms of practice. Just to, this is how it's always been done. We think we know what's right. We think we understand what people want. There's a lot of assumptions. When I was practicing, there was involved in situation where I really thought it was all about the money. We had to get the most amount of money. And when I finally learned it had nothing to do with the money at all, because I wasn't listening, the matter resolved very, very quickly, and it was a great outcome for everybody involved. So I simply want to underscore that and thank you for saying it that, let's put aside at times some of our assumptions and really take the time to understand and listen, what is the need of the client? And we are here, we are in someone else's employ. KATIE: Right. At service. MARK: Exactly, and thank you for that. That's sums it up perfectly. And we are in service of others. And we can't forget that. We need to be an advocate at times. And sometimes in the litigation space, very, very strong advocates. There are situations where people need that because they can't advocate for themselves. But that doesn't mean that we get a pass on just really trying to understand who is this person, how do I best serve them? So I've just tried to summarize some things that I'm taking away from this conversation. KATIE: Sure. [crosstalk 00:00:29:01]. MARK: And I think it's, I'm thrilled to see that you have taken such a role. And a lead position here in Montana to try to really expand and bring this new, or a slightly different, less adversarial model into Montana. Thank you for very much. I just think that you're doing some wonderful, wonderful work. Do you have any final closing thought that you'd like to share? KATIE: Oh my goodness. Well obviously thank you so much for having me. If there are attorneys or other professionals, even clients, potential clients listening to this. If you have questions or you want to have a conversation about this, my contact information is easy to define, that's elementlaw group.com. MARK: Yeah. Yeah. elementlawgroup, one word, elementlawgroup.com. So there you go. And I invite folks to go out and take a look at the website and go take a look at the book. Well, again, Katie, thank you very much. KATIE: Thank you. MARK: For those of you listening, I hope you found something of value today, and it's always a pleasure to take a little time and visit. So if there's anything else you'd like in terms of topics, questions, concerns, you do not need to be an Alps insurer to reach out to me, feel free at any time. My email is mbass@alpsinsurance.com. mbass@alpsinsurance.com. Happy to help in anything at any time. If there's ever anything I can do for you. So thanks for listening again, folks. You all have a great day. Stay safe. Stay well. Stay connected. Bye-bye.    

It's a narrative that often gets repeated to parents of young children with disabilities: the more services the better. But John and Connie found a different way early on with their son Mark. Their family's dream was bigger. The vision they have for an ordinary life really gets to the heart of why this podcast started - to offer out ideas for families and people with disabilities to go after more in life than the expected route of disability services and segregated activities.As founders of the Plan Institute in Rhode Island 15 years ago, the Susa family connected with Starfire to learn how to launch community projects. They said that this way of bringing people together, over a shared goal like a community garden, generates a certain magic - almost instantly.If you are someone who wants to think seriously about how you and your loved ones spend your time, how to connect more deeply in community, and ways to make longterm relationships a reality, this episode is for you. GET THE PODCAST FULL TRANSCRIPT:CONNIE: - I have heard speakers talk about this concept as a way of healing the world and as we're in the midst of the COVID19 virus outbreak right now, I think the world could use a lot of healing, not only physically but also in terms of relationships. We have a new neighbor who shares that passion with us, and it has been such a joy to get to know one another, to have a real give and take. I can see how if this were multiplied throughout communities, and states and nations, the world would be a beautiful place. KATIE: Beautiful. JOHN - I'm John Susa. I think what moves me for a lot of this work is almost a therapeutic plan for me. I grew up very very isolated and I had very few interactions with anybody besides my family. And most people would have described me as being very introverted. When people asked me when you were a child, what did you want to be when you grew up? My answer was always the same. I wanted to be a long distance truck driver. So I could sit in that cab and not have any human interaction for days. And if left to myself that's probably what would have happened. But instead I learned that if I pushed myself a little bit and started interacting with people and meeting people then I could change that desire to be a loner. And so I think the reason I'm so involved in all of this stuff is still mostly for myself to avoid falling back into be a loner. So I made pretty much a conscious decision that I was just going to change my behavior first. And of course after I changed my behavior for a while my attitude started to change.Fast forwarding then to when you and Connie met, and you had children and you were - down the road, you know, deciding how to engage as a family in the community, what were some of the things that you had to consider first to be connected?JOHN - I think for me the recognition that Mark developmentally was experiencing life differently than others made me realize it was going to be very helpful if I became more engaged in the disability advocacy world. I was kind of driven by two different quotes that were in my head that I learned while I was in the military. And they're very a-typical but they're very powerful. One is from Johann Goethe a German philosopher and he said, “Dream no small dreams for they have power insufficient to change the hearts of men.” That's been something that I've always come to recognize as a very powerful piece of instruction and advice. And I saw that there were people who were encouraging us in many ways to dream small, to be satisfied with what Mark is able to do, focus in on his disabilities, spend your time searching out services. In many ways that was dreaming small. There were occasionally people who would say, “No, no, no don't do that. Dream big. Dream like Mark's future is limitless. Dream like if you just provide him with all the opportunities that life has to offer, you will be amazed at how much he is going to accomplish.” And that is what I took from Goethe, dream big. And we have ever since. And that really has kind of put us into contact with a lot of other big dreamers. It's those big dreamers that really have changed the world works for people with disabilities.KATIE - Beautiful. MARK - Excellent.CONNIE: - For me in terms of community building, I think one of the greatest advances has been our church. Mark turned three at the end of December.MARK - Right. CONNIE: And three-year-olds were supposed to begin in what most people would call “Junior Sunday School.” When Mark was three, we were still carrying him - cradling him in our arms. Did you know when you were three years old you couldn't sit up by yourself? MARK - No way, really?CONNIE: Truly. Mark just kept attending our Sunday school classes with us and about two, three weeks into that sequence one of our friend's who taught the three year old class, the Sunbeam class, came to us in the hallway and said, “Why hasn't Mark been in my class?” And I said, “Edith - look.” As if seeing where Mark was at that moment meant everything. And she said, “Yes, but look at my role.” And Mark's name was there, without x's in the attendance boxes.And she said, “We really need him in our class.” And I said, “Edith he can't even sit up independently.” She said, “Well we could get a highchair and we could put pillows all around it so that he can sit up.” And I said, “We're not even sure that he can understand what you're teaching the other kids.” And she said, “That doesn't matter.” She said, “The reason I need Mark in my class is because all the other kids have so much to learn from him.” MARK - Really.CONNIE: And while we had been working seriously on stimulations and Mark had gone through early intervention and we learned about you know sensory stuff and what have you. We were doing that once a week, in a group and the rest of the time at home. But what Edith had said really started Mark and us on the path to community. Mark now…well, tell Katie what you do at church.MARK - A lot. CONNIE: - Some things that you're responsible for?MARK - I'm secretary. CONNIE: - Secretary for what?MARK - For attendance. CONNIE: - Yup, and you set up appointments for interviews.MARK - Set up appointments for interviews. CONNIE: - We were amazed, Mark was enfolded in the arms of these people who understood all about community because that fits the teachings that we have as Christians. Going back to what Edith had said to you that you know, diversity and having different types of learning in a classroom is really really really important and once you accepted that invitation, what unfolded in that first year? JOHN - What I remember is that it reinforced something that I came to realize, everybody became comfortable and it was now normal and accepted that Mark would be part of that congregation. Once people got to the point where they were comfortable because of exposure and experience they relaxed and they accepted Mark for who he was. And they didn't feel the need to treat him any differently than they would any other child. It reminds me of another one of my kind of guiding principles and this comes from a guy, Rudolf Steiner, talking about early childhood. Rudolf Steiner is the founder of the Waldorf educational system. Are you familiar with that?KATIE - Yes. JOHN - He said that, “There is nothing more therapeutic than normalcy.” That was a piece of advice that was given to us by a good friend, developmental pediatrician, when Mark was finally identified as having all these developmental challenges. The meeting at the end of the two-day evaluation process was nothing but a group of people who were very pessimistic about Mark. “He's not going to walk. He's not going to talk. He's probably not going to be aware of you. He's certainly not going to hear.” A whole bunch of things, they all at the end say “Well, good luck, take him home and love him.” That was their advice, which is good advice but inadequate. When they all left, their boss who was sitting at the back of the room observing asked us to go into his office because Connie was bawling. Sig closes the door and the first thing he says is, “Don't believe a word of what those people said to you.” And I said, “Sig if you say that, why didn't you stop them before they started?” And he said, “You know all those people in that room were doing or could do is describe Mark now, as they see him. They could not possibly describe Mark in the future. I believe if you believe them, that future will happen. If you don't believe and you adopt the approach that the best thing to do is to have Mark experience as much normalcy as possible he will become a different person. He will become more like the ‘normal kids' whatever that may be. Every person will develop depending on how much they're exposed to.” So he said, “I'm not going to let them label him because that will result in other people reading the report and it will only help them treat him in a stereotypical way based on his label. I'm just going to say he's developmentally delayed.” And his advice was, “Take him home and love him but then help him have every normal experience as other children.” And that kind of guided our thinking really from then on. KATIE - And you know, dreaming big in this instance is to dream ordinary, to dream normal. JOHN - Exactly. Yeah. KATIE - And sometimes ordinary is the biggest gift anyone can have.JOHN - Right, right. It's kind of counterintuitive because in the world of disabilities a lot of times people think that dreaming big means getting more services, the more the better, the more services the better. Steiner said think seriously about substituting every hour of normalcy with an hour of service because that hour of service is removing that person from normalcy. So it's almost in the disability world it's almost a flipping of thinking that that has to happen. CONNIE: - Be concerned if you were just going to services. JOHN - Be big in your thinking by vying for normalcy. KATIE - Yes, so even in services are... they're not normal. It's interesting. JOHN - They're not normal. CONNIE: - What's more important is that Mark participated not only in that class but every subsequent class. And when Mark was eleven years old we took our school district to a due process hearing because they had adamantly fought us for two years in bringing Mark back into district from a segregated day placement that was anything but normal, because they were sure that Mark would not act appropriately in a classroom setting. They were sure that Mark would be a disruption to other students, they were sure that he might even be self injurious or injury other people, because they were thinking in terms of stereotypes not in terms of who Mark is as an individual. And do you remember Jennifer Coats, Mark?MARK – Yeah. The one with the power.CONNIE: - She came to your hearing. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - And she told everybody just how you act in a classroom setting. That you raised your hand just like that, that you participated appropriately in singing time, that you sat with your class and no additional extra support. That you sang the songs that you answered questions, you gave talks. MARK - Right. Yes I did. KATIE - So it sounds like Jennifer had another piece of Mark and your family's story along this journey to dream big, to live an ordinary life? She made an impact during that hearing.I want to see if we can dip our toes briefly in the water of the day placement that you mentioned, that Mark was in, and how that was anything but normal. Can you explain how abnormal it was or what about it made it not ordinary?CONNIE: - Sure, the very fact that there were multiple kids with multiple disabilities just ate up so much of the instruction time. What else do you remember about it? JOHN - Everybody in Mark's class was just like Mark. Six little kids, wheelchairs. So the biggest thing I believe happened when he left there and went into a regular classroom is that for the first time he started culturally and socially experiencing life as every other eleven, or twelve or fifteen year old does. KATIE - You agree with that, Mark?MARK - Yes, excellent. KATIE - Yeah and I think that's a good segway to the phrase ‘a good life' that is something you hear a lot from Al Etmanski and Vickie Cammack. It's a big part of the PLAN institute model and you all have been involved with PLAN at Rhode Island for quite some time. So what ways has it helped? CONNIE: - John first heard Al speak, he recognized the wisdom in their model that we always acknowledge how deeply we depend on the work. When we brought PLAN (Personal Lifetime Advocacy Network) to Rhode Island 15 years ago we knew that we were standing on the shoulders of giants. The two things that we have focused on in trying to replicate their model is we help parents put all their ducks in a row, plan for the time that they are no longer going to be there or able to enrich the lives of their sons and daughters out of the love and the family history, the precious relationships. The much more important part of what they did in Canada and what we did in Rhode Island is to build a personal support network around the member. The family joins on behalf of their son, daughter, brother, sister and they engage with a facilitator to build and maintain that support network so that it's not just every individual having a relationship with a person at the center of the circle but it is all those people getting to know one another, to recognize one another's strengths, to trust one another. Between all those group gatherings individuals will do things with the members at the center, with our loved ones. And as parents we try to do that early enough so that we can fill in the important parts of the history. So the support network is really there to build a circle of support around a person, and yet also it's not just about the person in the center it's about everyone in the network joining together, being in relationships together, and in that way being in a community. Where are you now with the support network?CONNIE: - Right. Mark has had a personal support network for the entire time that PLAN has been in existence in Rhode Island. It really does take some time for relationships to mature that if we had to step off the Earth the next week, this would go on. MARK - Right.CONNIE: - And that it would provide Mark with people that he could depend on, people who were real friends, who had proved that over time. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - People who enjoy spending time with him. And we feel secure. In one of the questions that PLAN Institute seems to start with is what would happen to my loved one after I pass on, if I'm not around, if we're not there to help what will happen? And so starting from a young age it sounds like you guys have done a lot of work to build that support network so that in a time of disaster or otherwise that there is somebody there for Mark?JOHN - Right. When PLAN in Canada was first put together it was even before Al Etmanski, it was just a group of parents and they hired Al. They originally thought that they were preparing for their demise, the focus was on what's going to happen? What they quickly discovered was that yes they were doing that but they were also starting to develop a stronger sense of security and the feeling that their son or daughter was safe. There were some very positive benefits to the parents while they were still alive. And they figured it out that it was the existence of this network that provided that sense of security. And not only the sense of it but the actual security. KATIE - I love how you put that, that's very clearly stated for me and I think it's actually it starts as soon as you begin to community build: the benefits, the magic, the parts of it that are really just supportive feeling begin right away. And every parent needs that and we need to raise our children as a village. You all as a family have taken the brave step being able to say well even though some experts are telling us otherwise we're going to not believe that and in doing that we are going start this support network early and we're going to build and the more people who have joined in along the way it sounds like the more momentum has build towards this? Tell me about your family's leadership in the community as it relates to your street, and how your support network, Mark, how they were involved in that process? JOHN - So as we kind of navigate our life with Mark, I'm always looking for things that are in the way of him achieving greater independence. So this little project about looking at Warwick Avenue, Mark and his brother live about two and a half, three miles apart, they both require a wheelchair in Mark's case or a scooter in Frank's case. And so when Frank moved back here to Rhode Island we thought, “Wow wouldn't it be nice if these two guys could get together once in a while without Mom and Dad having to be the go between.” We started looking at this road and we recognized very quickly that this road was a problem. I've known that this road was a problem probably for at least fifteen years now, but I've not had a real strong reason for us to say, “Let's do something about it.” So we naturally thought that this is going to be something that is much more powerful if we have a group involved. We had a group, we had Mark's network, they all know him, they're comfortable with him. So we posed the idea, the project, people thought this is great. And the fact is that there is appropriated money from the Department of Housing and Urban Development every year for infrastructure maintenance. But the fact is also is that many states use that money for something else besides not worrying about wheelchair accessibility. So our complaint kind of brought this into the public eye and I'm pretty confident that we will be able to see some change and some action as we kind of work through the process. But it is also what ever you want to call it, karma, good luck whatever, that here we have our network and one of the powerful things about a network is the fact every member of that network has other connections with other people and within our little group we were able to identify somebody else who is not part of Mark's network but is only peripherally connected, kind of, who is going to be very helpful in resolving. And you never know who you may know until you start talking and working and interacting in community. Every network is a little community and every little community has a lot more resources than we certainly had by ourselves. Absolutely and maybe you can share how some of the other families you know in Rhode Island who have similar networks of support like you all do around Mark, how they've utilized their networks of support to do other projects in their communities with Starfire's facilitation support. What are a few of those other projects that have happened or sprung out of this collaboration?JOHN - So in about a month or so another network is going to do a project that is to create a mosaic welcome sign to this little town's community garden. It's prompted by a family who have a son who has very significant disabilities but who is a very very talented artist who is really good at sketching and painting vegetables. So they're going to take his work and they're going to create a mosaic welcome sign. This is a family I've known for quite a while, also been part of PLAN for a while, and they have dramatically really been able to bring their son like we did out of a special school into the real world and Sid has really blossomed as a result of that real world life experience. Why do you think it's important for families to lead efforts toward building community? And how do you think families are helping other people in the neighborhoods see the light of community building, the magic of community building?CONNIE: - We've been told for years on end that certain federal programs are underfunded and that there may come a time that those things are no longer available or that their support and services get shrunken and Mark loves people, he's a very social person. MARK - I do. CONNIE: - You do and you contribute in a lot of ways. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - And we're very proud of that. MARK - Right. CONNIE: - So just in terms of politics alone it's important that we give our sons and daughters opportunities to show that they can contribute to society. JOHN - From our own experience and from the experience of a lot of people we know that the amount of community, acceptance and inclusion that people with disabilities experience is really very much influenced by how much their family is integrated and included in their community. Our experience was that after Mark started going to special private school we spent more and more and more time at that school helping them with fundraising, helping them with all kinds of stuff and we spent less and less time in our community. We often meet family with children with disabilities and very quickly they'll say, “Oh, but we don't know anybody. We're not engaged in our community.” And without spending a lot of time we recently were able to recognize that that was because they were spending their time in a different world than their community. So we really really strongly encourage people to become more engaged and more involved. One of the ways is get engaged in a community project and all of a sudden you know a bunch of people, not all of those people are going to become part of their son's or daughter's network but some will. And that's because all of a sudden they know people who have common interests, there are all kinds of things that happen when you start doing things together. These projects are just ways people becoming engaged in their community, as a family, and then as time goes on for that family to be unique and having people have a relationship with that son or daughter who has a disability.Absolutely. And maybe we'll end with a quote here I think that is related to everything you just said. It's by Al Etmanski he says, “People are naturally ingenious when faced with adversity.” What ways do you think you all have managed to be ingenious?CONNIE: - With the COVID19 crisis, Mark's facilitator of Mark's support network is putting out requests with two things. One to ensure them that Mark is no more susceptible to this virus than anyone else in the community is. More importantly, because Mark has benefited so much from his contact with all the members of his network, she is going to ask them to engage with him regularly remotely as long as they cannot engage with him personally. He reads and he can enjoy texts and answer emails and appreciates post cards and greeting cards and phone calls.MARK - Right. CONNIE: - That's an adaptation that we're making right now. JOHN - We've learned that we really have to remain flexible. We have to depend on other people's creativity and let them interact with Mark in their way. In the beginning when he was younger people would always ask us, “What does Mark like to do?” And a long time ago we basically came up with the same answer, “Well I don't know, ask him.” Not only ask him but invite him. Mark surprises everybody with his ability to express his enthusiasm for things. KATIE - I love how you turned a question into a way to mobilize community to be more involved and be more inclusive. It's wonderful to meet and hear your story. JOHN: As parents we've benefited from such wonderful and powerful messaged from guys like Tim (Vogt) and Al Etmanski and David Wehterow and John O'Brien. There's a million of these messages that we've been lucky enough to try and hear and try and incorporate into what we're trying to do for Mark. That's what it's all about we're doing it for our family first - and hope that other families will see what we've done and will say, “Hey if those guys can do it so can we.” That's the power of this movement. KATIE: It's actually moving, it's doing something. That's the exciting part of it. Thanks for being movers, so great to meet you. MARK: Good-bye.

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Shows Up Guest:                         Katie Davis Majors               From the series:       Daring to Hope (Day 2 of 3)  Bob: Katie Davis Majors says there are certain things that adoptive parents understand that bio parents just can't fully appreciate. Katie: What better way to clearly understand God's heart for us than to bring a child, who is not biologically related to you, into your home and call them your own and believe that they're your own? I now have adopted children and a biological child. I can say, with certainty, that my love for them is the same. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, December 19th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. There's a lot we can learn, as followers of Jesus, when we go near the orphan or those in need. We'll hear more about that today from Katie Davis Majors. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I was coming back from a trip recently—I was grousing about the poor condition of the airplane I was on. It was an older plane—seats were kind of hard and, you know, I was cramped up. I went on Twitter® and I just—[Laughter] Dennis: Oh, you belly-ached on— Katie: —to the whole world!  Barbara: Oh! My goodness! Bob: —belly-ached to the particular airline in question. Dennis: Oh, really? Bob: I called them out and said, “It's time to upgrade your planes.” A friend of mine “tweeted” back at me and he said, “You need to fly to better destinations.” I “tweeted” back to him—I said, “There's no better destination than home.” Dennis: Ooh! Bob: Yes.  Dennis: There you go! Bob: Yes; “Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home”; right? Dennis: Well, I have to ask this; because she was snickering as you were telling that story. It's like you don't have any idea about the condition— Bob: —what a bad airline is? [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. Katie Davis Majors joins us on the broadcast. Katie lives in Uganda.  2:00 Can you tell us a story of a flight on an airplane in Uganda? Barbara: Or even a road, maybe. Driving a car down a road is probably just as bad. Dennis: Oh, exactly. Katie: Yes; the only time that I get in an airplane in Uganda would be to fly overseas, so then the airplane isn't terrible; but the condition of the roads is not great. Dennis: Well, I think there's no question that we're spoiled, here, in America with all of our services. Bob: I think you're right. Dennis: Katie is the author of a new book called Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. She is a mom to 14; a wife to 1, Benji, which is a great story in and of itself; and they've had a little boy of their own named Noah.  This is a book about, really, finding God through the interruptions of life, what we would call an interruption. Bob was interrupted by the seat in his airplane. You were interrupted, one day, by a guy, who was on your doorstep, by the name of Mack.  3:00 You generally have taken care of girls, but this was a guy who needed help. Katie: Right; yes. Mack was brought to me from one of the communities that we work in, by a social worker on our staff. She had found him, and he had been severely burned. His leg—you could almost see the bone, it had been burned so badly and so deeply.  You know, I thought I knew Mack. He was the village alcoholic. He was the guy who was getting in my way on my way to Bible study—he was the guy who was yelling profanities, and I would cover my children's ears. I had shrugged him off as an annoyance—as that kind of person. So, when she showed up with him—my sweet social worker, Christine—I kind of shook my head at her; but he was badly hurt, so we proceeded to three different hospitals. We were told all three times that his leg would have to be amputated, because it was so badly injured.  4:00 The hospitals in Uganda, where we live, are pretty understaffed and very under-resourced. The doctor explained to me that his leg did have a chance if somebody could bandage it and dress it every single day; but he said, “My nursing staff here, with this many patients, we don't have enough gauze, we don't have strong enough antibiotics; we won't be able to do this every day. If you'd like, I can show you how and you can do it at home.” I said, “Okay,” which is funny to me now. You know, sometimes, you wonder, “Okay; God, what?”—how did I…” / “I did?” Barbara: “How did that come out of my mouth?” [Laughter] Katie: I said, “That was fine”; but I did. We've been privileged, over the last many years, the house that we live in has a really simple guesthouse in the back—it's really just a line of small rooms. So, we do have a place where it is safe to let other people live. They're not inside our home, and so— 5:00 Dennis: Yes; that's one of my first thoughts: “What's a guy like this going to do in a house with so many young ladies?” Katie: Right. So that's why I felt safe about the fact that we had some good separation between our house and the guest home; and I have people like social workers on my staff who are able to come and help out with this sort of thing.  But he stayed—he wasn't actually allowed to come up to the main house—so I would go back there on the porch of his room every day and dress his wound. Slowly, he began to sober up; and this really gentle, genuine side of him came out. He began to tell me his story of all the tragic things that happened in his life that had led him to this point. God really just gave me such a compassion for him.  We don't get to our brokenness just because—you know, really terrible things had happened to him that had led him to this place. As I changed his wound each day for almost an entire year—it was about ten months / maybe closer to eleven that I was changing that dressing.  6:00 Every day, for about an hour, he would tell me little pieces of his story. I would share with him little pieces of the gospel and how I really believed that, not only was God going to make his leg whole, but God was going to make all of us whole.  We had just endured some loss in our family—we had lost a foster daughter that had lived with us for a long time. I really think, as I watched Mack's leg heal, that God was doing a lot of healing in my heart. As I testified to Mack who I had known Jesus to be, God was really having me say some of those things to remind myself of what I believed. Dennis: So, how could you do that? I mean, seriously—bring a total stranger in there? What was the motivation? What was the heart that caused you to care for that guy for 12 months? Katie: It wasn't—I mean, it the first time we had had a stranger in dire need show up and need a place to stay.  7:00 For Mack, I think, I was looking for healing / I was looking for redemption. I had not seen a happy ending in my family's story recently as we had lost of our daughters to the foster care system. I wanted to believe that God would heal this wound, and I wanted to watch it happen. Through that, God did a lot of healing in my own life. He definitely healed Mack's leg. A year later, Mack was up walking around the yard, raking our leaves for us / taking out our trash, just like a dependable, fun uncle for the kids. He had gotten a job at a local dentist—he's a dental assistant now. And actually, my friend Benji—who was just a friend, at the time, and was doing men's ministry in the area—I had reached out to him and said: “Hey, I don't usually have guys around, but there's this man that's ended up living in our guest house. He needs a man to be discipling him. Would you be willing to come do that?”   8:00 Benji began meeting with him multiple times a week for several hours, just studying the Word together. About a year-and-a-half after Mack had moved in with us, he put his trust in Jesus. He walked into my kitchen and he said, “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God,” and then he turned around and walked out. I stood in the kitchen and just cried, and yelled, and, I mean, was so excited. Bob: You know, Katie, I have a picture in my head of the gospel being proclaimed in—I don't know if it's in Uganda, but in parts of Africa—sadly, sometimes a shallow, consumeristic gospel, making promises and then shallow conversions that are momentary. It's like: “We'll try this witch doctor, because the last one wasn't so good.” Talk a little bit about the ministry of the gospel that you're involved with and what you're trying to do to counteract what's going on in lots of places in Africa. 9:00 Katie: You're absolutely right. We see a lot of that—the shallow conversion—everybody's looking for an answer; right?—so: “I might as well try this out. These people say that it can work.” It's difficult, too, to be white in an African country and proclaiming the gospel; because you want people to come to the gospel for the gospel, not because of something that they think you might offer them. So, you know, we've seen two things in ministry that we are both very passionate about—and that Amazima, as a whole, is very passionate about—one is just relational ministry / one on one over a very long period of time, discipleship through studying Scripture together. Another is equipping locals. We have some ex-patriot staff, but we have mostly Ugandan staff.  The goal of the ex-patriot staff is really just to equip the Ugandan staff with good, deep theology and the true Word of God so that the Ugandan staff members can be the ones discipling, especially the children in our program.  10:00 All of the families and children in our programs are assigned a mentor, who's a social worker; and they're all Ugandan. So, as an ex-patriot, we are really kind of behind the scenes, trying to encourage these Ugandan leaders to be the people sharing the gospel; because I feel like it's [better] received.  I say this a lot: “You can pour all the money, and all the resources, and build all the buildings and have all the projects; but in ten years in Uganda, the stories where I see true life change are people who have had a one-on-one relationship with someone who is pointing them to Christ. I think relational ministry is where it's at. Bob: What you're talking about—I remember, a few years ago, reading the book, When Helping Hurts, which I know you've read. Katie: Yes. 11:00 Bob: That's a part of the thesis. We have—in this country, we have a desire to want to help; and yet, we can throw a lot of resources at stuff that's actually counter-productive. Katie: Yes; and let's be serious—helping feels good. You know, it's not just about the person I'm helping; it fills me up as well. I believe that God intended it that way—that giving would be joyful and that acts of mercy would be done cheerfully—but I also think we need to walk with wisdom in that and how to best steward the gospel to a different people. Dennis: Katie, I know you believe this; but one of the things Barbara and I have really attempted to champion is encouraging believers / followers of Christ to get involved in the foster care system of our nation. You've been deeply involved in foster care; and to go back to what Bob said earlier—if you want to help someone, there is a natural way, right now, because there are almost 500,000 children in America—you don't have to go to Uganda to find one of them. 12:00 Katie: Yes; yes; right. Dennis: Many of them are going to age out of the system without a parent.  Barbara, we just had a delightful dinner with a man who has a passion for this as well. Barbara: We did. We had dinner a couple of weeks ago with a pastor whose name is Bishop Martin. He and his wife have adopted a number of young men and women out of the foster care system. He is passionate about us doing that, as a body of Christ, in America. In fact, our oldest daughter has been involved in fostering children for years, and they've had—I don't know how many—23/25 children through their house, and two of them they ended up adopting. It has really opened our eyes. We adopted too—one of our six is adopted—but we didn't do foster care. We have such a passion to see families welcome these children. The complaint that our daughter, Ashley, hears all the time—and I hear it as well—is: “That would be too hard, and it would hurt too much to give them up.”  13:00 I think this book that you've written will really help address that, because I think we shy away because of the pain of entering into someone's life. But when we do back off from entering into someone's life—whether it's a foster child or whether it's helping someone like you did [for] Mack—we don't realize that we're cutting ourselves off from knowing God in a way that we would not apart from that experience.  I love it that you're doing foster care in Uganda, and bringing children into your home, and writing about it so that maybe more American families will address the need that's right under our noses in our own backyards; because there are so many children who need to be touched—who need to be loved / who need to understand what a relationship is like. They've been shuttled around for years, and it's a ripe opportunity that God has in front of us. I hope people will consider it. Katie: I agree. What a tangible way to get involved, right where you are, in your own community. It's certainly as much of a need, here, in the States as it is in Uganda.  14:00 There are children hurting world-over, and so that's one of the things that I really always hope to encourage people in—that you don't have to move to Uganda / you don't have to move anywhere—there are people in need right in front of you.  Barbara: Exactly; right; but you do need to open your heart. Katie: Yes. Barbara: And that, I think, is what most people are afraid of—is opening their heart—because they know that there might be some pain involved. We're so pain-adverse and we're so addicted to comfort that it keeps us from opening our hearts and then, consequently, experiencing God in a way that we wouldn't have otherwise. Dennis: Katie, I've said, for years, that: “When you go near the orphan, you go near the heart of God.” Katie: Yes. Dennis: How have you experienced that personally?—because you've adopted 13 Ugandan young ladies. Katie: Well, what better way to clearly understand God's heart for us than to bring a child, who is not biologically related to you, into your home and call them your own and believe that they're your own?  15:00 I now have adopted children and a biological child. I can say, with certainty, that my love for them is the same.  Because I know that to be true, I can believe God when He says that, through Jesus Christ, I am adopted as His son or daughter, just as Christ is His Son. I mean, really, it's unfathomable; isn't it?—but I believe it's such a clear picture. I desire the world for my adopted daughters, and I believe that that's God's heart towards us—this Father heart—and I don't think I would be able to so clearly understand it had I not experienced the love that I have for my children. Bob: Katie, you've been in Uganda for a decade. Katie: Yes. Bob: You left Nashville to go there as somebody who knew and loved Jesus.  16:00 How is your understanding of what the gospel is different, today, than it was when you got on the plane and said, “I'm going to Uganda”? Katie: It's very different. I think my faith, when I set out—as an 18-year-old, with my suitcase full of construction paper, and crayons, and my heart that was going to change the world for the gospel of Christ—you know, I think my faith was a bit naïve. Definitely— Dennis: You think?—at 18? [Laughter] Katie: Yes. Dennis: I just want to make sure our listeners heard what you just said. Katie: I'm quite sure. [Laughter] Bob: A bit—a bit naïve. Dennis: A bit! I mean, your parents had to let you go, for goodness sakes, at the age of 18, to Uganda. Katie: They did; yes.  Dennis: They had to wonder if you were a bit off at that point; right? Katie: Right! Yes; I think I was very optimistic as well. I think I saw God's goodness to be when things turned out well, or when my prayers were answered, or when things were going my way—then I would say, “Oh, see, God blessed us.”  17:00 And I really—I mean, I do believe that the greatest gift God gives us is Himself / salvation and eternal life with Him—that's what He wants to give us. There's no material thing / there's no earthly blessing—it's Him. I have seen that God has given me more and more of Himself even in the midst of unimaginable hardship. Bob: When you share the gospel today with people in Uganda, how is it different than when you shared the gospel a decade ago? Katie: I mean, I think I definitely am more quick to present the fact that belief in Jesus does not mean that things are going to go well; and belief in Jesus does not mean that your garden is going to grow or that you're not going to live in a dirt house anymore; but belief in Jesus means that you will have someone with you through those circumstances and that those circumstances will just be so temporary in light of eternity. 18:00 There is nothing here that we're putting our hope in. Belief in the gospel doesn't really mean that we have hope in this world now; it means that we have hope for eternity spent with God. Dennis: And in the midst of life, you're going to have these messes that you're talking about—that hurt / that disappoint—because people will disappoint you. Katie: Yes. Dennis: But what you're saying and what you're reminding us of is that God shows up and He desires to be our refuge.  One of the things I found, as I was reading your book, was you were really counseling your own soul. As you stood there in your kitchen—peeling mounds of potatoes, cleaning dishes, cleaning up after the girls—but you were counseling your soul with the Psalms / with the Scripture so that you were responding the way God wanted you to respond, realizing He was there with you. Katie: I love the Psalms because they're so honest.  19:00 I think we're, sometimes, conditioned to think that we can't come to God and tell Him, “I feel so disappointed,” or “I feel so angry”; right? We think we're only supposed to say, “Okay; I'm upset with God, but let me find something that I can thank Him for or something good”; but we see in the Psalms the psalmist cries out to God. He tells Him how he feels.  When I approached God in that way, I felt that God did not become angry with me back. You know, maybe when you approach a human with anger, you expect they're going to yell back at you; right? But God didn't feel angry. He understood what I felt / He already knew that I felt that way, and He was able to comfort me all the more when I was honest with Him.  Dennis: Well, as I was reading your book, I was reflecting back on a psalm—Psalm 43—especially one verse that has been meaningful to me recently. Maybe it will be meaningful to a listener or two.  20:00 It reads, “Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me?” That's honesty, right there—that's admitting where you are. It goes on to say, “Hope in God, for I shall again praise Him, my salvation and my God.” God desires to be our refuge. Sometimes, He has to knock the props out from under us, where we're looking for encouragement / where we're looking, as you talk about, Katie, in your book, Daring to Hope, where we're hoping for a good ending to the story, and we don't get that good ending. What God's doing is—He's driving us to Himself. So, if you want to counsel your soul, take a look at all five verses of chapter 43 of the Psalms. 21:00 Bob: And I think for folks to read Katie's book and be reminded of the things she has learned, caring for adopting kids, living in Uganda—I think there's a lot of encouragement / a lot of hope in this book. The book is called Daring to Hope: Finding God's Goodness in the Broken and the Beautiful. We have copies of the book in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, our website—FamilyLifeToday.com—the phone number: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I was with one of our listeners, recently, who said, “I know when FamilyLife Today went on the air.” He said, “It was 25 years ago; and the reason I know that is because that's when we started having children, right about the same time that FamilyLife Today began as a radio broadcast.” And he said, “All along the journey, I have leaned into you guys for counsel, for wisdom, for help, for advice on how we can raise our kids.”  22:00 And he smiled and he said, “And you know, they've turned out okay.” As you know, Dennis, there's no guarantee that kids turn out okay, even when Mom and Dad do the best they know how to do; but it is encouraging to hear from moms and dads / from husbands and wives who tell us, repeatedly, that this program has made a difference in their understanding of marriage and family and in how they're living it out. I wish those of you who support FamilyLife Today—both as Legacy Partners and those of you who will give an occasional donation to support this ministry—I wish you could hear some of these testimonies that we get a chance to hear. These are the people you're supporting when you support this broadcast. You're helping to turn around legacies / you're helping to point families in new directions, and we're grateful for your partnership with us. 23:00 Here, at yearend, we have a unique opportunity for your giving to go farther. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here again today with an update on FamilyLife's matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle! Michelle: Hi Bob, yes I reported yesterday how the fund might be doubling? Well the matching fund is 4.3 million dollars! …which is fantastic! But what has to happen next is up to our listeners, because without you, that 4.3 million dollar figure is just a number.  So…please pray about your part in fulfilling the match… ‘cause right now we're at seven hundred twenty nine thousand dollars, and that's quite a gap to fill in just a couple of weeks… so please keep praying, keep giving and to God be the glory!    Bob: And we've tried to make it as easy as possible for you to make a yearend contribution to FamilyLife Today. You can do it, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.  24:00 Or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to find out how Katie Davis became Katie Davis Majors and hear about the young man who pursued her in Uganda and ultimately got her to say, “Yes,” to his proposal. I hope you can tune in for that story. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Daring to Hope (Part 1) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 2) - Katie Davis MajorsDaring to Hope (Part 3) - Katie Davis MajorsFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Serving the Hurting Guest:                         Katie Davis Majors               From the series:       Daring to Hope (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: As a single mother, a parent to 13 adopted children, Katie Davis Majors was surprised when a young man, also living in Uganda, began pursuing her.  Katie: He asked me out twice; and it was in the middle of, I think, just a hard season for me personally. Both times I said, “No”; and the second time, I really said like, firmly, “No”—like, “Hey,”— Barbara: “Don't ask again now.”   Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay. We can't—we can't do that. No. No; thank you.”   Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, December 20th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How Katie Majors went from a firm “No,” to becoming Mrs. Benji Majors—we'll hear that story today. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. I want to meet Benji Majors sometime; don't you?   Dennis: I do!   Bob: I mean, I just want to meet the guy who was persistent and met a determined young woman and was determined to win her.  Dennis: I want to hear the story of whether or not he went to Uganda in search of Katie Davis, author of Kisses from Katie. [Laughter]  Bob: I'm just curious about Benji. You told us earlier that there was a guy who was living out in the house behind your house. You called Benji and said, “Would you want to come disciple him?”  Benji said, “Sure.”  I'm thinking: “Yes; Benji wanted to take you out. I would have come and discipled him and say, ‘I'll be there every day to disciple him if it gets me a little closer to you.'”  Do you think that was in the back of his mind?   Katie: At that point, no; I don't think so. [Laughter]   Dennis: Are you sure though?   Katie: No!  [Laughter]   Barbara: Yes; that was a hesitant yes. So, yes; I think that's right.  2:00   Dennis: Well, Katie is the author of a new book, Daring to Hope. She is now married. She is a mom of 14—13 of whom—a baker's dozen of Ugandan little girls, who are becoming, even against Katie's will, young ladies. They are growing up— Katie: Yes. Isn't that true?   Dennis: —growing up on her here.  I want to ask you my favorite question, but I'm going to ask you to wait to answer it— Katie: Okay.  Dennis: —until the end of the broadcast. Here is my question: “What's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all of your life?”  Now, don't answer right now—I'm going to give you a moment to think about it—but courage is doing your duty in the face of fear.  I've got a sneaking suspicion, because of your book, Daring to Hope, that you've got a definition or two that comes from your book that you'd share with our listeners; but to get there, what I want to first have you do is tell us about the woman who had five children, who was dying of TB and HIV, who came to you.  3:00 Her name was Katherine. Tell our listeners that story of how you cared for her.  Katie: Katherine came to live with us when she became very ill. Her five children, under the age of ten, were sponsored by Amazima; so we were paying for their school.  Dennis: Okay; let's just stop here. Amazima is an organization you run in Uganda.  Katie: Yes. We—our goal is really to disciple families and to empower the families to stay together. About 80 percent of children in institutions in East Africa actually have one living parent; and they end up institutionalized just due to financial poverty. Their parents cannot afford to pay for them to go to school, or to pay for their medical care, or to pay for their food; so they send them to these institutions.  That was something that was very shocking to me the first year that I lived in Uganda, and I really desired to try to change the system.  4:00 Through financial sponsorship of school fees, and some food, and some basic medical provision, Amazima works to keep these children with their biological family members; but of course, the heartbeat of our organization is really that, in doing that, we would form a relationship with these families and lead them to Christ.  Dennis: Katherine was one of those moms who had experienced the care of your organization.  Katie: Yes; so we were in relationship with her and had known her for a few years through her children; and she just got sicker and sicker to the point where she wasn't really able to take care of her children very well. She moved over to our house so that I could help her out with her children and, also, because our house is very close to the local hospital, and she needed a little more immediate access to medical care. We were just down the street from the doctor she was seeing.  They lived with us for several months. I truly, really, believed that God was going to heal her of her illness—that she would become healthy and strong again.  5:00 I had imagined it in my head—the happy ending, where she would move out with her children.  We always throw a bit of a celebration for people who have lived with us for a season and get to move out on their own again. We've had many families, especially struggling single mothers, live with us over the years. We always have a big celebration when they become well, or they finally find a job, or their child is finally healthy enough, and they can move out. I really thought that that would be the case with Katherine and her family as well; and she did get better for some time, but then she began to deteriorate very quickly.  Dennis: She passed away.  Katie: She did.  Dennis: You compared your experience to the prophet Habakkuk and how he had to deal with some disappointments as well. You learned through that disappointment that there isn't always a happy ending to the story—but in this case, there was a happy ending to the story because— Katie: Right.  6:00 Dennis: —she went to heaven.  Katie: Yes; absolutely. That's what Habakkuk says—right?—that though the olive crop fails, though the leaves wither, though there are no sheep in the pen—basically, even if I can't see it, still I will hope / still I will rejoice in God my Savior. I felt like that was something God was teaching me in a season where I had really thought we would see it—we would see a happy ending where she stayed alive. God showed me—still I can rejoice, even though things didn't go my way.  Barbara: I remember discovering that verse when our children were teenagers. They were starting to kind of press the limits a little bit and push back on us. I discovered that verse, and I thought, “This is a perfect verse for a mother— Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“of children of all ages; but especially, teenagers.”  I think the oldest was only 15 at the time; but I remember, when I read that, I just hung on to that because I thought: “Lord, there is no guarantee— 7:00 Katie: Yes.  Barbara: —“that all the best parenting, all the prayer—none of that guarantees that my children will choose You, they will choose to live a good life, they will be responsible / they'll be productive. They're no guarantees. It could all fail. It could all be gone. Will I trust You if You do that?”  It was a real turning point in my life; because I said, “Okay; God, I will. I will choose to believe You even if none of my children flourish / there is no green on the vine.”    Katie: And isn't that the hardest part of parenting— Barbara: Absolutely.  Katie: —is just that moment when you realize, “Even if I do everything perfectly,”—which I'm not— Barbara: Which we're not—none of us do.  Katie: —“but even if I did,— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —“there is no guarantee— Barbara: None.  Dennis: No.  Katie: —“there is going to be any fruit here. There's no guarantee that these—that they are going to choose Christ in their own lives, and they have to choose it for themselves.”  That's the scariest part of it for sure!   Barbara: Yes; exactly, because it's not something that we can do for them.  Katie: No.  8:00 Bob: Bryan Loritts, who is a pastor in Northern California, who is a part of The Art of Parenting video series that's coming out before long, makes the observation: “God is a perfect Father. God has rebellious children.”   Barbara: Yes; lots of rebellious children. [Laughter]  Katie: Yes.  Bob: So, think about that—here's a perfect Father with rebel kids. Why should we think that we, as imperfect parents, will be spared a little rebellion in our home?—right?   Katie: Right.  Dennis: No doubt about it. Just as Barbara was talking about, we have learned a bunch about God's love for us as we have loved our kids and watched them struggle in their faith, from time to time.  Katie, I know from reading your book that you have learned a lot about the love of God through the 14 children that you have.  Katie: Oh, absolutely; because even—you know, as a parent, you see so clearly that, even when you are disciplining your children, it's not out of this place of anger toward them or hatred toward them— 9:00 —it's out of such this place of love and a desire for good things to come in their lives.  I think I've understood so much more that—when God disciplines me in my own life, when God tells me to go in a direction that I don't really feel like I want to go, or when God even brings me through a difficult time—it is His love that does that to shape me, to change me, to teach me; because He wants good things for me. I think, as parents, when we feel that love for our children, we can see it so much more clearly from God's vantage point.  Dennis: Yes; I really agree.  Katie, before we get too far away from the story of Katherine, who died, and her five children—what happened to those five?  Did you adopt them?   Katie: I didn't. They did stay with us for a little while, immediately following her death.  10:00 Then, we placed them with a biological aunt, who they lived with for some time; but that situation was never really good. The aunt was very young, and she was also struggling. She didn't have any biological children, so she had never parented before; and the children were really suffering there with her. We would provide food, and we would drive out there to visit them; but it just never seemed to be a good situation.  I was just getting desperate, just praying, asking the Lord what I should do. I mean, the idea of having five more children come to my house was a lot. At the same time, I was not clearly seeing another option. They were a sibling set of five—like there aren't many families that are willing to take that on, even in the foster care system.  I had gone to visit my friend, Rose. Before I started talking, she said, “You know, my daughter Helen”—who had been a good friend of my daughters and was in and out of our house a lot—she said:  11:00 “My daughter told me about what happened to the mom of those kids. I'm so sorry. God's just put it on my heart to really pray for them; but also, just to ask you: ‘Is there anything they need?—even, maybe, do they need a place to go?'”   Of course, I like start to weep and just said: “Oh, I can't even tell you—that has been on my heart all week. I've been praying.”  I was even just telling a good friend of mine earlier that same day—like, “I do not know what we're going to do for these children, but I feel like—I told their mom, before she died, that I would make sure they were okay. It feels like a lot of responsibility.”   Rose and I talked for several more hours that day about what it would mean for her to start fostering them. About a month later, we went through all the paperwork process; and social workers visited with both families.  12:00 About a month later, we are able to help move Katherine's five children into Rose's home.  Barbara: Wow.  Dennis: You know, I just marvel at your acts of courage to care for Katherine as she died, to care for her children after she died, and also your courage in developing a relationship with a young man called Benji.  Bob: Yes; you talked about how unusual it is for somebody to take five kids in as foster kids. [Laughter]   Katie: That is a little ironic; isn't it?   Barbara: Yes; it is.  Bob: How unusual is it for a young man to say, “I'm going to be the husband to a mom of 13?!”   Katie: Yes; it's not usual.  Barbara: It's not normal.  Dennis: So, he asked you out twice before you said, “Yes.”   Katie: He did. He asked me out a couple of times; and both times, I said, “No.”  The second time, I really said, like firmly, “No,”—like, “Hey,— Barbara: Like “Don't-ask-again” no?   13:00  Katie: —“I hope we can still be friends; but if we can't, it's okay.”  [Laughter] Dennis: It was a “Dear John.”   Katie: “We can't do that. I'm—no. No; thank you.”   So, then, really, after that, I think I got to watch his heart on display a lot more; because I trusted that he wasn't going to ask me again. He was very respectful in that—he didn't really come over as much after that. He was still discipling the man that lived in the back of our yard, but he would come—he would go straight to Mack. He would spend his time with him, and he would leave. He would not come say, “Hello,” to me / he would not try to make conversation. I mean, I felt very respected in that—that he didn't. He heard what I said, and he didn't push the boundaries.  I got to watch him and his heart for people, and for service, and truly for the gospel through that. He was also attending this large Bible study that we all went to on Wednesday nights.  14:00 He often led worship or even led the teaching at that Bible study. I was just—I was so attracted to his heart for the Lord. I was telling my good friend, like: “Oh my gosh. I think I like him; but now, I can't tell him; because he's never going to ask—he's not going to ask me out again. There is no hope.”  So, I did—I had to call him and ask him if he would come over for coffee; and he said, “No.” [Laughter]  Barbara: He didn't want to risk it again; huh?   Katie: Well, yes!  I mean, I had said so— Barbara: Yes.  Katie: —clearly that I didn't want to date him. What was he going to be doing having coffee with me?  Why would you have coffee with a young, single female that wasn't going to date you?  [Laughter]  So, I had to beg and plead a little bit, you know: “Please, I need to talk to you about something important. Can you come?  Can we just—can we just have a cup of coffee?”  So, he finally said, “Yes.”   Dennis: Oh no!  You've got to say— Barbara: And he said?   Dennis: Yes?—what happened over the cup of coffee?   Katie: Well, then, I was so nervous.  15:00 I made like dumb small talk the whole time; right?  So, after about an hour, he's looking at his watch; and he's like— Barbara: “Okay?”   Katie: —“Okay; well, this was nice. I think I'm going to go.”  So, then, I just kind of blurted out some words that probably didn't even make sense—like: “You know, I was thinking / I was wondering if, maybe—do you want to like—we could spend more time together, you know, intentionally; you know?”   Barbara: Real coherent; right?   Katie: Right; exactly. He's just kind of looking at me; and finally, he said, “Like—like dating?”  I said, “Well, yes.”  He said, “Okay; I'm going to pray about that,” and he left!  [Laughter]   Dennis: He didn't go for the bait!   Katie: What I didn't know, at the time—which is amazingly the Lord's provision and just further confirmation that we both really were trying to seek after Him— 16:00 —was that he had been in conversation, earlier that week, with some of his supporters in the States about whether or not his time in Uganda was coming to a close. He felt like he had pretty effectively discipled these 30 men. They were all kind of going out into the world and starting churches and discipling other young men. He felt like: “Okay; I could kind of take under my wing another group,” or “I could just keep in touch with this group via Skype and internet. Maybe, my time here is coming to a close.”   He had been in conversation with people about whether or not he was moving back when he got my phone call asking him to come to coffee. What I didn't know, when he said he needed to pray about this, was this was a much bigger decision than “Am I going to date this girl?”  This was a decision for him of: “Is there more of life for me in Uganda right now?”   17:00 Dennis: And so, how long did you date?   Katie: Probably, almost a year from that point until we got engaged; and then, we were engaged for about eight months.  Dennis: Time out. How did he propose?   Katie: It was so sweet. He actually—he's such a good dad—he took all the girls out for ice cream earlier in the week. He just said to me like—and he would do this sometimes—he would say: “I'm going to take the girls out to eat,” or “I'm going to take them down to the river to play for a little bit so that you can get some quiet.” He had taken the girls out for ice cream and took them over to his house, actually, and sat them all down and said: “I would like to propose to your mom. What do you think about that?”  They all gave feedback; and then, he let them help him plan how he would propose to me.  Dennis: Wow.  Barbara: That's so sweet!   Katie: He showed them the ring, and he let them— Barbara: So sweet.  Katie: —he let it be a family affair, which I just loved that he knew my heart well enough to know that I would have felt like something was missing if they hadn't been a part of that.  18:00 Actually, our best friends came to babysit the girls; and he took me back over to his place. There was a picnic laid out—his yard is kind of right on the edge of the lake that we live nearby—and he proposed. Then, as soon as I said, “Yes,” all our girls came running out of the bushes. They had watched the whole thing.  Barbara: Oh how sweet!  Oh, I love it.  Katie: They were so excited, and they had picked flowers. They were throwing them on us—it was so sweet.  Barbara: So, did anybody capture any photos of that—I hope?   Katie: No.  Barbara: I'm just thinking, “Oh, I wish I could have seen that.”  It just sounds delightful.  Dennis: Great video.  Katie: I know!   Barbara: Even just a few still photographs.  Katie: It was so dark, but it's like seared in my memory forever!     Barbara: I'm sure it is; yes.  Dennis: So, back to my original question, at the beginning of the broadcast: “Katie Davis Majors, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done in all your life?”   19:00 Katie: That is a hard question, but I think—I think the most courageous thing that I have ever done is to trust God when I can't see what He's doing. I don't think that's a courage that has come from me. I think that God, Himself, has allowed me the grace to continue to trust Him.  I think that that's the most courageous thing that any of us can do—is to continue to put our hope and our trust in God, even when we don't really feel like it. He has shown me that that hope does not disappoint me because, even when I don't get what I want, I get more of Him—I get to know Him more / I get to know sides of Him that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't scooted up next to Him like that.  Bob: So, you're saying, even if the olive tree is barren— Katie: Yes!   Bob: —and the leaves are withering— 20:00 —to say, “I'm still going to trust Him.”  That's where real courage comes from.  Katie: I think that that is real courage.  Dennis: As you were talking, I couldn't help but think of this passage in Romans, Chapter 5.  Katie: I love this one.  Dennis: “More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces—  Katie: —“hope.”   Dennis: —“hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”   Katie: Yes!   Dennis: God in you—changing you.  Katie: Yes.  Dennis: Great answer to the question.  Katie: Thanks.  Bob: Well, and there is a lot of courage that shows up in the book that you've written called Daring to Hope. It's a book that tells the story of how God has been with you in the midst of suffering / how you've seen His goodness in the brokenness of where you live and work.  21:00 I would encourage our listeners: Get a copy of Katie's book, Daring to Hope. You can order it from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”   You know, one of the things that, Dennis, both you and I love to hear are stories of redemption—people whose lives were broken / headed in the wrong direction—they were in the ditch, as you like to say—and God intervenes and turns them in a new direction and points them in a new direction—turns their whole life around. Recently, we got a chance to meet with a number of listeners, who said FamilyLife Today was a part of their redemption story.   22:00 Some of the stories we heard were just remarkable.  I was sitting there, thinking, “I wish our Legacy Partners / I wish the folks who help support this ministry could be here with us, hearing these stories, because that's what you're giving to when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.”  You're helping us reach more people more regularly with practical biblical help and hope.  And here, as 2017 is drawing to a close, I know some of you are thinking about possible yearend donations to ministries like ours. There is a special opportunity for you to give over the next couple of weeks—it's a matching-gift fund that's been established for this ministry. Michelle Hill is here with details on how we're doing with that matching-gift fund. Hi, Michelle!   23:00 Michelle: Hey Bob…well by now many folks have heard that the match fund has more than doubled (it's now 4.3 million dollars) but the real important number is one, as in that one person listening right now and deciding to give…and maybe you're that one? J   I mean really Bob, the match isgoing to be met one gift at a time…and so far over five thousand people have made that decision. So, thanks to each one…like Don from Canton, Ohio? Today we're at NINE HUNDRED SEVENTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS...which is great! BUT…if we're going to take full advantage of the match, we'll need a lot of other ones to pray and then give as God leads. Bob: Well, and if you'd like to be a part of helping us take full advantage of the matching gift, you can make a donation today, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to donate—1-800-358-6329 is the number—1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”; or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; our zip code is 72223.  24:00 And if you haven't sent us a Christmas card yet, send a Christmas card and just tuck something inside; okay?   And I hope you can join us back again tomorrow when we're going to hear a conversation we had, not long ago, with our friends, Don and Sally Meredith. This is a remarkable couple who God used in a significant way to help birth the ministry of FamilyLife all the way back in 1976. I hope you can tune in and meet our friends, Don and Sally Meredith.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Download the Pocketbook Guide: https://www.starfirecincy.org/guidebookTRANSCRIPT:Katie: Yeah so pivoting a little bit I'd like to talk about this idea that for people with disabilities especially because that's what we care a lot about at Starfire, that this connection to social services usually means a disconnection from community life.That it means a person getting kind of pulled off the path of community member and onto a path as a client. What can you say just initially about how that looks and how that works for people with disabilities?John: I learned a lot from people who are labeled disabled, I'm not the wise guy on this. My response is I've learned from people with the real experience. One of these people was a Canadian named Pat Worth. And Pat was a younger man when I first met him, maybe 25, rather tall. He had escaped from an institution for the developmentally disabled, big old fashioned institution. And he said to me, “You know I think, one of the things, not all but one of the thing we ought to do is to organize people who are labeled in local communities so they could have a strong voice. Not their parents, not the professionals, but them, me, right?” He said, “You know about organizing, will you come with me for a month across Canada and see if we can start little organizations in the major cities of people who could come together and become a voice for themselves?” And so we did that and we got started with a fair number of groups. They chose as a name People First. When we got done we ended up in Vancouver after a month Pat said to me, “Now I think you can finally understand that our problem is not that we are disabled, our problem is we are disorganized. And the answer for us is to be organized.” But he also recognized, “and become active in communities.”And I think initially that he had the idea that People First would be entry points into community life because they would be independent of agencies and systems.Once we understand what Pat understood, that what we call and label a disability is really a name for a lack of power to join everyday life. The lack of power to join everyday life. And Pat had discovered how to make that power when he escaped from the institution, right?So one of the basic things I think about the movement is, is everyday life goal? Is being a citizen in connection with others the place in life that you're trying to achieve? And Pat had that in mind when he formed the group, but he first thought we ought to get enough power to get free of people who were controlling us and then we would have the possibility of moving to the world where we were connected rather than disconnected, or disorganized.Another thing, one of my best friends, she passed away I think now three years ago, was another Canadian named Judith Snow. I think she was very famous in the United States too. And Judith was born so that she could only move her thumb and her face. And we became very, very close friends. She used to come and visit us for her vacation. And she told me one time she said, “You know it wasn't until I was thirty years of age that I really understood who I was.”And she said, “I had spent so much of my life being labeled and accepting the label and fighting the label but that didn't tell me who I was.” And then she said to me, “When I was thirty I had a revelation, and it is that I am exactly the person who God created me to be and therefore I have every reason in the world to participate in this world because I have God's gifts.”Now you don't have to put it in religious terms, you could say “I have gifts.” And so I think the relentless, relentless insistence that the critical question about somebody is not what's wrong. It is, what's their gift? And building a life out from their gift is the key to entering community.Katie: You know for listeners who don't know who Judith Snow is she is a pioneer really in education, in training programs, she's an author, she's written a lot of things and I actually had pulled a quote of hers leading up to this because I knew of your friendship with her.“A gift is a personal quality that when it's brought into relationships in a valued way allows opportunity to emerge.” - Judith SnowJohn: Oh boy, that's Judith. And Judith was a person who wanted to be a part of everyday life and I remember one time we have sort of a weekend home up in rural Wisconsin. She knew I was a fishermen and so she said to me, let's go fishing. And I didn't know about whether or not that was something that was going to be very good for her or if she'd really like it. But we went and the place we went to fish had some canoes and she said, well if I'm going to fish, I'll have to be in a canoe. And she was in a wheelchair. You know and the idea of getting her into that canoe seemed to me a little perilous. But she had an aid and we got into the canoe. You know they're a little tippy, I was very careful, a little afraid. And we went out together and I fished and she talked with me and watched and enjoyed the lake. And I caught more fish than I've ever caught before.And I thought you know, she made me a real fishermen by taking her adventure, desire to discover, to be a part of it all. And she brought me into that world, and see what a benefit I got?Katie: And those are exactly the gifts that she's talking about.John: Right.Katie: Yeah, I love the list that you share that she has, that she said the gifts that people with labeled with disability have. I'll link to that in the show notes for people to see but it's brilliant.One thing you mentioned when you were speaking about Pat's story that I want to go back to is that sometimes parents, in the time that Pat was advocating and starting People First, parents were actually getting in the way of people with disabilities being part of community life. And now today, what we're doing at Starfire is really putting families at the center of building community and we're asking families and parents to participate alongside their children with or without disabilities to be a part of effective community change. So how do you know when you're on the right track with that, as a parent, as a neighbor, as a connector, how do you know when you're on the right track with building community?John: You know that very idea is pioneering. I'm looking forward to learning from these families what kind of things they did, sometimes it might not have worked, I'd like to know that too. So I think I would probably approach the question you're asking the same way I would approach if you weren't say, anybody involved happened to have a label. And I would say that a family might first examine themselves in two ways: number one what do we all care about? What common interest do we have? And the second is: what gifts do we have? Those answers to those two questions are the keys to opening your access into community life.Because you'll usually find that almost any interest that people have there is some group, club, or association that is focused around that. So if you can come to that part of the communities' life with what makes the group work anyway, a common interest about the same thing, I think that's a pretty clear path to becoming engaged. Now you're not creating something anew but something new may grow out of that relationship, right? And the other possibility is your gifts as against your interests. Your gifts are key to your entry into community. So what do we have that we care about, and can share, can use as our key and if we have been great stewards of Christmas maybe we can bring more Christmas to the block than the block has had before. I think that's happened with one of your groups. So they're looking at what they have to offer as the starting point that would involve other people who are attracted to that. Now, there aren't a lot of people sitting around thinking, “Gee, I'd like to have a better Christmas.” But when a group of people offer them a better Christmas, right? All of a sudden they're attracted. And that's what makes almost all groups work.Natural groups, clubs, groups and associations in neighborhoods are groups of people who are together for one or two reasons or both. Number one they care about each other, number two they care about the same thing.Very often the way you come to care about one another is you get together because you care about the same thing. And then your care for each other grows. So those are the avenues I think of, what's the ramp into the community? And it's interests and gifts. And your honest conviction that you have something to offer, and not that the community will solve your problems.You have something to offer. Everybody does. I've never met anybody who didn't have something to offer.Katie: So it sounds like you're on the right track as long as you are using gifts as your north star and you're focusing on that and the minute you start to veer off into some other direction maybe around your empty half or the problems, or going toward the service to fix things then you're kind of veering away from the path.John: Yes, excellent summary.Katie: One of the things that you worked on in Chicago was a project called Logan Square. You were the principal investigator in this what became a publication written by Mary O'Connell. And in this introduction Mary starts to describe the myths of the ideal of a small town past where “people sipped lemonade together on the front porch, watched out for the neighbors kids, shared the works of the town and the fruits of their gardens.” And I think there's a common argument, especially today, we're very aware of how the way things used to be is oftentimes mythologized, you know, things were way worse back then for people who were marginalized typically who are left out typically. People with disabilities, people of color, people who are part of the LGBTQ community, people who are typically just like I said left out of communities. So when we're talking about community building are you trying to get back to the way things were, or how do you marry those two ideas? Because I know you worked a lot with civil rights in your career?John: Well I'm not sure they're two things. I think people who are concerned about civil rights are concerned about equality and they're overcoming formal ways of exclusion. So you can't discriminate against me when I eat or when I'm in a restaurant or when I'm seeking housing. Those are formal ways of overcoming exclusion. But the law can't reach to a local community that may be exclusive, right? You can't pass a law saying you can't be exclusive here folks. You've got to include everybody.So I think our asset based development effort is always circumscribed by something that Judith said, and she was one of our best faculty members.She said, “It's our job to ensure that there's always a welcome at the edge. That exclusion is not what binds us together but invitation and welcome is what binds us together.”I think that the idea of “civil rights” works as a means of dealing with formal structures and systems - but it is invitation and inclusion that works in the space that isn't the formal world.Katie: It's so interesting how you just put that because it goes back to what you said about police officers, we need to generate safety in our own communities. They can't be the only answer, and same with laws, laws can't be the only answer in creating equality or inclusivity. We have to be the inviters and conveners.John: People of color, people with labels of any kind live in a world where the majority or at least a large number of people, do not respect them. And laws will not produce respect. But if somebody on a block says, I know this person who's been on the margin and they have something to offer, come on in, we need you and that gets shared. Then you begin to see respect. And it's the building of respect I think that is very much a word that says, we want you because you are valued, we know you have something to offer.Katie: That's beautiful. I'd like to just end with one final kind of question and it's something that I like to end on usually is hope but I think too we need change and sometimes when you end on hope it doesn't motivate people to do anything on their own. So I'd like to motivate people today with this question. What is the most urgent call to action that you think we have today as citizens?John: Know your neighbor. Start at home. Margaret Mead said that all change starts with small groups of people. It doesn't start out there it starts in here. So just historically if you want to change things, go next door, start there.

RESOURCESImago Dei MinistriesParadox Lost BookSHOW NOTES“You cannot talk someone out of their shame. It’s just an impervious force. Words will not penetrate it, and as a matter of fact can even make it stronger. And we’re often so afraid to speak those words of our shame because we fear that it’s gonna give it power, or we fear that it’s gonna make it true, or we fear that someone’s gonna not love us if we say that. And yet it’s in actually identifying the things that we believe in our shame that allow us to bring it into the light, where it can be healed.” -Katie“When we allow ourselves to be human is when we can actually go back to living the way we were meant to be…in the garden we were created as human and God called us very good…When we expect ourselves to be perfect we’re not allowing ourselves to be human, and that takes us out of right relationship with God.” -Katie“With our children sometimes we just need to help them to name it. We need to help them to understand what it is they’re feeling.” -Katie“Christ is the image of the unseen God and so we can look to Christ to understand that Imago Dei within us, and Christ contains both lion and lamb…He’s the Lamb of God and the Lion of Judah. They’re both held within and we have both. And it’s a simple metaphor that even children can understand.” - Katie“If I can own my lion as well as my lamb, then I can live out of my diamond, where I’m not gonna judge the lion in this child as bad, and now I can help them to find their lamb. But I can’t really help this child to find their lamb side if I don’t know my diamond.” -Katie“If you are a lion-leading person who doesn’t know your lamb side, your lamb child is going to be afraid of you, no matter how gently you come across, because they’re going to see your fangs and your claws and know that you can tear them apart.” -Katie“It’s like a tree…a tree is used in the Scriptures a lot, a tree planted by waters. It just is. It’s just powerful and it’s strong and it’s standing there, and it’s taking in energy and it’s giving out energy, and it’s a place to find shade and comfort, but it’s strength. It’s strength and grace all at the same time.” -Katie“If I don’t value both of them (lion and lamb) in me, then I can’t help them find what’s missing in them.” -Katie“The cool thing about our children is, because their layers aren’t so solidified yet, like us adults, they’re much more moldable and we can get through the shame in a much easier way than if we wait until they’re in their 30s and 40s.” -Katie“We actually handicap them (children) by trying to protect them from their worst fears. And we make them stronger by going after that, and if we can do it from our diamond then we won’t add shame to their shame.” -Katie

RESOURCESImago Dei MinistriesCompanioning CenterParadox Lost Book“I believe shame is the most powerful force on the planet apart from grace. Grace is the only thing that’s more powerful than shame, and shame is a given in the world. We all are subject to it, it’s like a force that’s in the world…and in the peanut M&M metaphor the shame is the chocolate. It’s the stuff that ends up attaching to our diamond. It coats us and it comes from those ‘shoulds’ and it can start as early as…infancy.” -Katie“If you don’t think everybody has an Imago Dei…the latin for “image of God”… or they don’t have a diamond, then…what God created them?…If you believe in one God, then all people are created in the image of that God….If we understood that inside of everybody, you wouldn’t hurt another individual that you could see the diamond in…every human being is a reflection of God.” -Katie“From a mom perspective, the most important thing that you can give your child is to see their diamond…and you cannot see another person’s diamond if you don’t know your own. If your diamond is covered in shame, then you’re going to see shame in your child …It’s really important that we understand shame in ourselves so that we can bring it into the light.” -Katie“Shame that’s not transformed is transferred.”-Richard Rohr“Depending on your kid’s personality, they’re either going to absorb it (shame), or they’re going to shoot it back at you …and then they have more layers covering their diamond.” -Katie“If you shut down on your child, your child feels shut down…they’re going to experience it as ‘You don’t like me.’ They’re going to take it personally. It may not be personal, but they’re going to take it personally…they’ll tell themselves a variety of things, but all of them are going to be shaming.” -Katie“The problem with binary thinking is it’s the product of the garden - of the fall…I won’t always make diamond choices and that doesn’t diminish the diamond. If we can’t acknowledge that we won’t always make ‘diamond choices’…then we’re not going to make room for the kids to do that either.” -Katie“You can’t talk yourself out of your shame…The Paradox Prayer is…neurologically what’s happening is it’s a statement of fear from the limbic and a statement of faith from the prefrontal cortex. When I force a connection between those two parts of the brain, the shame can go down…you can also teach your kids paradox prayers.” -Katie“It’s in admitting our worst fears in the light that actually brings the healing.” -Katie

TRANSCRIPT:0:00 – 0:44Bridget: I'm Bridget Vogt and I have worked at Starfire for twenty years in a variety of ways.Katie: That's two decades. So that's a long time. What has been all the variety of ways?Bridget: When I first started it was just office help and doing the outings that we had during the evening and weekends. You know a few years after that we started a day program so I started that, doing the day program. A few years after that we started StarfireU, so I worked in both and then just StarfireU and now I am doing one-on-one work with people and their families.0:45 – 2:46Katie: What do you think has changed in the way that you show up to work from then and now, and what has stayed the same?Bridget: Well I'd say there's just a different way of showing up when you're starting your day with a room of 12 people or 15 or 20 people with disabilities versus showing up and talking to one person at a time. There's a much different energy, there's a different effort, there's a different priority that is just the reality of probably day program life. You know, you're hoping that everybody gets along and that they can say they had a pretty good day and I think the days of working with a group of people at a time it is more about being an entertainer and showing them a good time and keeping them happy and building them up. Now working just with one person at a time it is still about building them up and making sure they're confident but it's not quite the same, the word entertainer keeps coming to mind. The people who were really successful in the day program that keep coming to mind were the staff with big personalities who drew people in with just who they were naturally and they could almost perform, if that makes sense. They were a good storyteller or funny, all those things, and that's not necessarily as useful or needed with just one person. So you're still building into the person to help them understand who they are and that they're a good person, that they have gifts to give, what are they, and figuring all that stuff out. And that's kind of the biggest difference is working with one person and thinking.. You know.. Where do you belong... what do you do? Where are you going to be happy doing?Katie: Yeah, so it's a little bit more of an in-depth conversation when you're sitting with somebody, you don't need to be the entertainer. You need to be the deep listener and over-shadowing a person by being too enthusiastic or too much of the entertainer could give the opposite effect than when you're working with just one person at the time.Bridget: Yeah, I think that's possible. Like I definitely think that's happened, you know we're working to help people meet people and if you kind of take over and don't let that person who you're working with shine more than you than you're not doing a very good job.2:57 – 4:30Katie: Yeah, so you stayed through this change, and you've had to turn on different parts of you or skills/strengths that you have during the change, and so what's been really consistent about the work? Obviously, it's kept you here, doing it.Bridget: Well I think we have, one way or another, throughout these times — we did what we thought was best and that's still the case. I care a great deal for all the people we've met with disabilities out there. And to recognize that appealing to a group of people doesn't change what happens in their lives in ten years. Letting that sink in and figuring out how to do something that hopefully will mean something in ten years with or without my presence is the bigger key too. So I think that's what keeps me here, is the belief that what I'm doing is going to matter in ten years to these people that I know. Katie: So obviously like a deep well of love or care for people with disabilities is consistent in you, you showed up in both worlds with that, with that intention.Bridget: Yeah, yeah I'd say so. There wasn't a whole lot of outside forces drawing or keeping me. There are plenty of potentially simpler things to do out there in the world definitely probably more lucrative things to do out there in the world but that's not where my heart was or what I felt called to do. Annd Starfire seemed like a good place at the time when I started here.4:31 – 6:30Katie: Yeah, Starfire had something different even back then twenty years ago than other places, it was founded by family members who were looking for a better way and so that thread of intentionality and family driven-ness has kind of carried through.One of the things you told me before this podcast around building community was that If we want other people to learn how to build community or do it on their own we have to really learn how to do it ourselves. Take me back to when things did try to shift to Starfire being more of a community building place for people with disabilities to connect to the community — and what was your involvement in the community when that change started to happen?Bridget: You know, before anyone saw any changes at Starfire before it started to change Tim and I, mainly Tim, started doing a lot more learning around topics like asset-based community development (ABCD). And being introduced to some concepts that we had not heard of or knew anything about and kind of working through those and wrestling with some of the things we were learning with. You know if there was a belief that the community is the answer, it sounds great that the community can be the answer but we don't always see it. But part of why I think for us what we had to acknowledge was well our community is not our answer, we've lived in Bellevue for three years and we don't know anyone, we only know two of our neighbors and that's probably about it. And we go to work and then we come back and then we had some old friends from like college and high school and those are who we see and not our neighbors.That was sort of the beginning of noticing, we don't really know our neighbors so this idea of community being the answer is just ridiculous. But is it ridiculous or is it that we just haven't tried? And if this is possible, if community is the answer, then we probably need to figure out what community it is, and what does it look like and what are we doing to be active in our community. 6:31 – 7:06Katie: Describe Bellevue, describe what that neighborhood is like.Bridget: It is one square mile, in Kentucky, on the river.Katie: Is that it?Bridget: Yeah, one square mile.Katie: Oh wow.Bridget: You didn't know we were that little? So it's pretty small, what else would you say about Bellevue. It's overall a working class neighborhood.Katie: How many people in the one square mile?Bridget: I don't know.Katie: It's pretty concentrated, like there are a lot of houses.Bridget: Yeah, I mean it's urban. You know houses are very close together there's not a lot of yards.Katie: There's a big.. There's a great little main strip there with coffee shops and...Bridget: Yeah like your typical main street.Katie: Kind of on the river.Bridget: Close to it, yeah.7:07 – 9:16Katie: Ok, so when you're thinking back to that time and you're just learning these new concepts around community building and you're looking in you're neighborhood and you're like ok there's.. We don't have any connections here.. Did you have any revelations at that time or what started to shift and how did you start building community?Bridget: Tim was a little more, I know he had been to Peter Block and John McKnight and they had been talking about neighborhood interviews. Truly going and finding people and interviewing them and Tim did that. He was like, “Alright the challenge is I've got to meet five different people, I'm going to interview them on their gifts and talents,” and then he was like, “you should too.” And I said maybe in a more informal way.Katie: What was your hesitation around that?Bridget: Yeah, well it's weird right, like this is an awkward beginning of like ‘hey stranger' or someone that I've just seen in passing, ‘Could we sit down and I'll interview you?' I think anyone would say once they've done it it's not weird at all it's just the hurdle of asking. Because I think I did talk to a few people but I didn't… I would just kind of talk to them instead of like scheduling it. I would just kind of be in a conversation and kind of work my way through what the interview probably would be.Katie: So like what are your talents, interests, passions, skills?Bridget: Yeah what do you like to do?Katie: So you kind of start with the low hanging fruit, I already know them..Bridget: I started with the easy-peasy, ‘Hey friend that I already know' and then we started talking about doing a starting a community garden in Bellevue, I wanted to do it, one of the people we like already knew was interested in doing it and then that kind of grew out of there. Like ok throw it out to the masses, who would want to start a community garden?Katie: So once you started talking to neighbors you start to kind of plot ideas? I feel like that's kind of a natural thing that happens just with people, is once you get to talking you start talking about what would be great in our neighborhood? And that conversations just kind of naturally evolves right like, probably pretty informally like the way that your conversations evolved.Bridget: Yeah I think so, like what would you want to do? Oh do we have this here?9:17 – 12:36Katie: So did you find that there are people who are really driven/motivated to get something created off the ground like ‘ok we'll do all the plans for the garden' and then there are the people who step in once it's there and say ‘yeah we're going to establish this and make it set'?Bridget: I don't know, there were some people who were interested in the beginning but they had some pretty… They were randomly enough when I went to community garden training there were two other people that I never met from Bellevue.Katie: Is that how you got started was just to go and learn how to do it?Bridget: That was one of my commitments, is I said I'm going to well I thought that I would get one I would interested helpful practice probably. And all the like powers that be were very supportive like the neighborhood association the people that were there at the time, had talked about it but they've never done it and I'm like I'm really going to do it, I've already signed up for the class. And they were like sure, go for it, you know we'll support it and you can do it under the neighborhood association umbrella.Katie: Had you gardened before?Bridget: Just in the backyard a little bit, I mean I still would say I'm not an expert gardener. Whatever, you plant seeds that grow, maybe they don't, and that's ok you just. You just keep going and that's what's great about it because the weather is unpredictable, the season is unpredictable. There's no guarantee that just because you did it well last year you could do the exact... You could think you're doing the exact same thing and it's not.Katie: I like that approach, I really like that because I think there's a lot of wisdom in that for people who want to do something that they don't know how to do and maybe think they'll never know how to do or be experts at, and for something like gardening that can be really intimidating. And what you're saying is that's ok even if it fails. The whole point isn't necessarily...Bridget: Well, and that would be my perspective on it and what I bring to the community garden. I think I was talking about how there were two people at that training who wanted to grow their own food. They had plans to make a community garden, they wanted to sustain their living, they wanted to plant enough food to last their... They wanted to eat off their land. But it wasn't going to be their land it was going to be some neighbor's property that as an empty lot. And we kind of parted ways because they were very serious about, like we will be producing enough food for ourselves and the difference between the lot they already thought they could use and some of the lots like empty some vacant property that we were looking at they were like “oh there's not enough room, not enough room” and I was like “not enough room for what?” But like my idea was not going out to produce enough food to support all of Bellevue.It was always going to be a community garden, a place to meet, a place to garden, a place to enjoy each other. And hopefully get some vegetables out of it. So meeting those people at first was exciting and then it was like this is a struggle, they were not interested in the community aspect of it.Katie: The community aspect of it is what.. And that's what you went to people with.. It wasn't do you want to grow vegetables it was do you want to be part of a community that is growing vegetables?Bridget: Right. Yeah like bring your kids, it won't matter, we won't care. No hard core rules no you know some of the strict regulations.12:37 – 15:18Katie: That's the key. So then how did the potluck evolve?Bridget: There was ourselves and another family, the Salzmans, who I guess we just decided we should try it. There wasn't a whole lot of planning involved other than like we all do it once a month, we'll have it at the city building and that's it. And we don't know what will happen, I think it was just mainly them and just saying like well it might just be the four of us - and kids who show up and we'll just see what happens from there.Katie: And so during this time, you guys are starting to shake a little bit of your patterns about how you live in your neighborhood, can you talk about some of those smaller micro-things that you've done to build community and ways that you've also met neighbors. Because you know it helps to have that form of communication where it's not just a flier going out. What were the ways you got to kind of know more neighbors so you could make those invites?Bridget: I think a lot of it was, one the coffee shop became much more of a hub. So there were people coming and going and just running into people and saying hello. There were programs that our kids did, like there was a basketball program with young kids and we walked around, I think we went around to a few different people and talked to them about, ‘hey would you come? You'd be welcome.” There was a neighborhood group started on Facebook too.Katie: And I love that you guys do stuff in your front yard too.Bridget: Yeah we usually have our fire pit out there, so we'll sit out there. Halloween we sit out there with a fire and hot dogs or just anytime and there's quite a few kids in our neighborhood especially at this point, that just kind of wander around, hang out looking for stuff to do. So if we're doing that they can come and hang out and sometimes their parents come with them. Sometimes it's a formal ‘hey we're having a fire pit who wants to come?'Katie: And the same spirit happens at the garden. Right where people just kind of walk by and they see it so that's an invitation?Bridget: Yeah and I have gone to the school and done, like with the after school program, pretty much since the beginning brought a group weekly or however often works in their schedule. So there were a lot of kids then that I got to know who I would meet their parents somewhere in the grocery or wherever and be like ‘oh hi I know you' and then they'd have to explain who is this lady? And then there is stuff like when people walk by, still like ten years later like ‘What is this? We have a community garden?' And the community garden was communal, that was the other thing that we did, it's not as if you pay a membership due and get so much property or square foot bed, it's just everybody gardening together, so that if somebody is to come once, they don't have to wait until next year to get their bed or whatever. They come and they can do whatever we're doing, like everybody works on it together, same thing with kids and everything.15:19 – 16:44Katie: So I mean taking it back to when you guys were first looking at Bellevue and saying this is not a place where we can build community to today it just seems like...Bridget: I don't think we thought that we couldn't build it but we just hadn't.Katie: Yeah or I guess..Bridget: We just didn't know what community was, like to sit back and be like ‘oh yeah when we grew up we could talk to all these neighbors and we did run.. Like I did run around with my neighbor friends, there were five or six kids I was allowed to go around the block... I just think we as adults had not even attempted. Like we were just the people coming in and out our front door, parking, getting out and going out to work, coming home and staying home or going out somewhere else. And we just had that shift of well what is going on here in Bellevue?We should be a part of this. If this is where we are going to live, let's live here. It shifted from work and people we know from work or old college friends that we're going to go visit and see to shifting to like well who are our neighbors? You know maybe we thought that the neighborhood itself wasn't very welcoming like when I look back nobody welcomed us what the heck. But we've been here long enough we are the people who have lived here, we should be the “welcomers” so I think we just kind of recognized our own role. If we want our community to look a certain way we've got to do it. We can't wait and think well nobody else did that, so I guess it doesn't exist.Katie: That's just not part of our neighborhood.Bridget: It's just not a thing.16:45 – 18:41Katie: And that's also something that you almost don't want to impose on people its like ‘well nobody else is doing that here so maybe that means people don't want it and if we tried we'd be imposing' or we'd be asking people too much. But I'm wondering too is there something to the rhythm of the garden and the potluck that has allowed for this to take shape?Bridget: I don't know I wanted to make a community garden. I think that as far as where is your energy best, where gives you energy, what makes you happy is a big factor. So if it's going to make you miserable to garden then you're probably not going to be the person that starts the community garden. Like you might help with some aspect of it but going to the garden overall is a fun time for me, I enjoy it, it makes me happy. I love when new people come I love when old people show up versus trying to do something just because I think it's a good thing to do, if that makes sense. There's definitely been times and roles that I have taken on because ‘oh wouldn't you, would you be willing to do this for us, you'd be really great at that' ..Ok, I can do that, you know I'll commit to that role… and then realizing this is killing me.. Like this just makes me miserable, why would I say I'd do this and now I say I've done it so I'll do it but I've got to step out quickly. And I think that's more like there are plenty of ways to build community and plenty of things that you can do, I think it's just making sure you're enjoying them. And then it's also possible to make sure you're enjoying them with the right people. You know some of those..Katie: Keeping an eye out for who is going to be in the same.. Who has the same motivations as you.Bridget: Versus being like, oh if you're willing. You know sometimes you agree just to have help, to have anyone on board to do something but if its... You know what you want and you're going the wrong direction you might be really disappointed.18:42 – 21:04Katie: You can be discerning when you build community and it doesn't mean you're not a good neighbor.Bridget: Yeah, I think the other things we've done like the potluck we were very conscious of doing things that are simple, keeping it simple, don't make it complicated, don't promise gourmet meals. We have never said that we are going to... You know the tables will be set up by 5:30 and we will have brought the main dish, anything like that. It's kind of, the more people come the more comfortable they are, like “oh it starts at five o'clock and that means we just get here at five o'clock and we start setting tables up and chairs and arranging the room it doesn't mean at five o'clock dinner is served and you've walked into like a dinner party with tablecloths. It's very laid back, we make sure there are plates which actually on Sunday we ran out but oh well. People figured it out, they reused some, ate off the cake plates.Katie: Yeah, that's the part that stresses me out about potluck, when I hear it and I think of hosting it I think I have to bring the main dish, I have to be the one to set up everything and you figured out a way to make that low key.Bridget: You just kind of set it up with the expectation of 1) there's not really a host, like Ryan will put it on the Facebook group and he'll set the events, it's every fourth Sunday and that's kind of done for the year actually. Between a few of us we throw in paper plates and forks every once in a while, so yeah and just kind of knowing we could have put the bar really high from the beginning but I think at that point we were aware enough to know that that would wear us down. We wanted to make sure it would be nothing any of us dreaded going to and that's not going to keep it going.Katie: Yeah, and how could you ever go on vacation or have a missed week?Bridget: Yeah and if we're not there what do you do? You know luckily there's not a key, the way Bellevue works is we just call the police and they have a key to the building and they let us in. Now anybody, the early birds know that. So if we're not the first one there the other first person knows ‘oh I just call this number and they'll come and let us in and we can get the tables out and start moving things around.' I mean that all took time you know, but I think just to be cautious or thoughtful about if it's something that you want to do for a long time, what is it that you enjoy doing and it won't drain you over the long-haul?21:05 – 23:13Katie: And how often do you go to the garden? How often are you..Bridget: In the season I'll go twice a week.Katie: Ok, and are you going at a set time when everyone else is coming too?Bridget: Yes, Wednesdays 6:30, Sunday at 9:30.Katie: So you have set hours?Bridget: Those are the established.. They kind of shift from year to year but usually it's like Wednesday night and Sunday morning.Katie: Ok. How many people would you say are showing up to these different things, does that even matter? How important is that to you?Bridget: It's great when there is a crowd. There's probably like 30-40 people plus kids, and then some kids at the potluck.Katie: Starting out it was just you and the Salzmans right?Bridget: Well a couple more people came and even then obviously in the time that we've been doing them, who shows up and who is still showing up has changed. The same thing with the garden, some people who were really helpful and got us you know came and did some hard work at the beginning, you know one couple's moved out of Bellevue another one is still semi-involved, actually a couple of people have moved out.. You know so some people who were involved are gone. And now it's a different wave of people almost. And then there's people that for some of those people that were a part of the community garden they never came to a potluck, that wasn't their scene. We even though it is kind of close.. Bellevue is pretty small, so you could be conscious of — ‘oh they've never shown up once' but it's not their thing. So I think to just keep that.. Because when you first.. When things first get started and they're sort of in that fragile state of beginning, it is sort of fragile right and you think ‘oh how come they aren't coming to the garden, I thought they'd help and they've never shown up.' And you can take it personally but then again another part of living in a neighborhood for your life is expecting you to live by these same people. So if you want to hold a grudge about the fact they said they'd show up and they didn't you probably aren't going to be great neighbors, you know like this is a lifetime of living so let's not hold a grudge about the time they said they'd show up or why didn't they and all that kind of stuff. Because that's not necessarily going to help build community either.23:14 – 24:18Katie: One of the things that I'm wondering now is if it is a new neighbor and they want to get involved in the garden, do they contact you? If they do want to come to the potluck is there a main person there to kind of coordinate things or..Bridget: I think the Facebook group is a pretty big communication device for everyone, and that shows the times and then if somebody asks a question then the person tags my name or somebody else in there and say “hey they want to know about this” or you know I think Facebook is a big driver as far as communication that I've had and then it might be a personal message or text from somebody whose met, you know maybe they live next door to somebody who had that question and they say ‘oh here's her phone number or I'll text her or email her.'Katie: So you are the main contact for a lot of these questions for the garden?Bridget: I mean for the garden I am, I don't know that anybody really reaches out for the potluck as much as they would just show up and be like ‘what is this, who should I talk to?' And then people would probably point out a few different people to talk to there.24:19 - 26:40Katie: So when people talk to you I guess they see you as a coordinator of the garden especially, and they come to you and they have a brand new idea for the garden or they want to implement something, being in that role as the main contact how do you deal with that how do you respond?Bridget: Usually it's that sounds great, you can do it. Just recently we had a big, one of our neighbors was part of Crossroads and she was leading a go global effort in Bellevue and she wanted to do it at the community garden and she was like, “I've got some ideas” and I was like “I'd love to hear them” and they wanted to put in a pergola and a grill. The grill didn't happen but the pergola is up and it was like that would be amazing, that would be great, and they did it. There have been many suggestions like at the potluck we should use silverware, all this plastic and I was like, “I hear ya I bring my own.” My answer to that is me and my family, we have the dishes we come here with and we take them home.Katie: So you bring your own set of dishes and silverware?Bridget: I do.Katie: Oh that's smart.Bridget: But I provide the paper ones as well, but one of the people who comes says we should really.. Or shouldn't we all.. We should just have silverware here and I'm like, “if you want to bring it and take it home and wash it I would love it.” But I am also making it clear that I'm not volunteering to do that.Katie: To clean everybody's dishes.Bridget: I am taking home these five plates and these five forks because I would really probably resent everyone as I washed their dirty dishes.Katie: Oh my gosh yeah.Bridget: But I would love it if somebody really was motivated and was like I'm going to do this, this is my thing I'm going to do every month, I would totally support that.Katie: Yeah it goes back to do what you want other people to do, sort of be the change by living it. I think people forget what an individual looks like versus what an organization looks like. It's like an organization who runs a potluck would probably take that and implement a new system of dishwashing because they could but an individual or a family..Bridget: Or organize like it's your month. Like could you imagine the rotating..Katie: No.Bridget: Who knows.. Who knows what any organization would do.Katie: But that's the slipery slope of it getting really entangled and emmeshed in this sort of process, agenda, structure that ends up killing the spirit of it.26:41 – 34:21Katie: Now when you look at your neighborhood, Bellevue, what does community look like? What would be like a key image?Bridget: There's a few that come to mind, like one is the ability for my... like Patrick who is old enough and friends live with he just walks around and finds friends. Like that's a pretty great image for me, like that's kind of his classic line at this point is “I'm going to go out and find some friends, I'll be back.” That's a pretty big deal for your kids to be able to go out and find some friends to play with. I don't know there's a lot of images, you know we just had the memorial day parade and we weren't in the parade but knew.. Waving at all the groups that were walking by, how many people we knew or as people go to sit down or as we go to sit down talking to so many of the people that are around that's pretty great.. That's a big day for Bellevue I feel like Memorial day parade but pretty great.Katie: Do you ever feel the need to go back in time to this hidden life in pulling in from work and going in the house and not talking to any of your neighbors, is there ever a time when you not regret but wish you could be more under cover in your neighborhood?Bridget: I don't think so, no, like I said I think there is the things you learn about being in community and being around your neighbors of knowing how far to take of personal feelings right, “oh you hurt my feelings.” And kind of working.. Being aware of who you are and why that hurt your feelings, like don't hold onto that forever because I could find a way to probably be upset with a lot of people if I wanted to, right? Like we could find hurts everywhere or slight grievances whether they're real or not, whole other story, but if I wanted to take that as a personal afront to what they said or not showing up..Katie: Or even just differences in political opinions.Bridget: That would be a big one right now. Like stuff like that, Facebook profile what somebody said on Facebook or on the group page you know, like how much do you engage in those conversations that people get started. So no I don't, at the same time there's been moments of struggle where you have to sit down and say “ok this is what community is about, it is about you can be this person and we can still talk about our kids being friends even though we have the.. We are not alike in a lot of ways.Katie: That part of it is what I think is the most magical. Is when you can actually get to a place where you can be common with people who you are so different from and you can feel connected and familiar with them even though you might never have chosen them but they're your neighbor. It's kind of like family but in a different way.Bridget: It is, and it's not to.. You know to paint this picture there are plenty of people who don't want to know me. It's not as if the whole neighborhood is all sharing.. You know there are those people who think a community garden is a waste of space, that's fine. There were people when we first started who thought we were taking away a place for kids to play, we can win them over or just ignore them. You know they'll either be won over all with time, I mean its not our intent, it's not as if we're hiding some intention other than.. I don't know if some people are suspicious like “why are you doing this” “what's your end goal?” And I think they're have been some people who have asked me that and I was like “um what do you mean? End goal? We're going to get to know each other isn't that enough?” But that's not enough some people just don't.. I don't know people have suspicious nature sometimes, sometimes they don't understand that you can just be doing it. I don't know how many times Tim has been asked if he is going to run for mayor. He's not.. Or city council.. Like are you running for something. Some people thought I worked at the school, “well you're a teacher there right?” “no, no I just live in Bellevue.” But like people's concepts of why people do things, you know it's your job to do them versus no this is just what I do for fun. This is my hobby.Katie: Yeah and it.. I think the intrastent motivation behind why you're doing something or if you were trying to get something out of it even if it wasn't this is my job or I'm trying to run for city council, if it was something less tangible than that like “I want to do this so I am.. So that people like me so I'm a good neighbor.. I'm going to do this so everyone thanks me and loves me for this garden at the end of it I'm going to be well renowned” so even that gets you in trouble because there are people that say, “you took away my this this or this” by doing it, you can't make everybody happy, you can't win everybody over so your motivation has to be pretty.. I would even think it gets whittled down to being just a pure motivation of “the only reason I would do this is because I love it and I want to be with the community. The community doesn't have to all of it but if some people do and we can enjoy it together than that's enough. I can see though where that would be really hurtful to be like “but wait a minute, wait I'm not trying to hurt anyone why is this being misconstrued?”Bridget: Why, why would you mock my garden? What do you think this is? But yeah. So you know that's one of the learning, take your toys and go home or stick it out and see what happens, see who comes around, all things with time. Sometimes its hard at this point to be like “wow it's been ten years” ten years of growing and what did it look like then, what were the struggles when we started versus what are they now? You know, I think overall the struggles now.. There's not really.. We kind of went over some of the hurdles and now it's just like I don't stress about it a lot. You know if people's expectations when they come to the potluck are let down because there wasn't a greeter at the door or there wasn't assigned seats, or whatever they had in their mind when they come in the door they may come and be disappointed because it wasn't organized enough and they really think it should be organized. And they probably don't come back and that's too bad I wish they would but at the same time this is maybe not where their energy is fulfilling, like they would be really stressed out by our lack of..Katie: So loose structure just kind of lends itself to anybody being able to fit in at the same time..Bridget: But there are people who come to the potluck who do not always bring a dish for whatever reason, they don't cook maybe they can't afford the meal, nobodies checking at the door. We can all show up differently and bring a different gift and that ties pretty directly to our work right and all that we have done. Not everybody.. The stricter the ways are the more exacting and perfect you have to be. At the community garden it would be really hard for groups of kids to show up at our community garden if you can't touch this and you can't touch that and if you step there.. I knew I wasn't going to organize.. I wasn't going to manage ten plots and ten people's opinions on how each plot should look. I was like heck no. That's one of the things garden managers.. Community garden managers do.34:22 – 36:18Katie: Ok so it has a lot of your spirit in it and whatever community effort is built has the person who starts it spirits in it. So let's take it back to Starfire's work real quick. Where is this type of community building that you do in your own life where does that show up in your work at Starfire and how is it influencing your work with disabilities one on one, do you think you'd be able to do some type of job if you weren't doing this at home?Bridget: Yeah, I think I could. I can definitely.. I know I believe in the community building work. I know it, I've seen it I've lived it in my own live and seen how if we had not changed or shifted what we were doing around our own neighborhood I don't know what our kids would be doing. Because of how we've shifted and lived I know that there is a lot of good things a lot of potential out here for communities to build up around. So I think that helps motivate the work but I think I could do it even if I hadn't. I wouldn't quite understand all the ins and outs I wouldn't have had the experiences to understand or think through some of the things but some have probably played off each other too.Katie: So your work at Starfire has kind of informed your role in your neighborhood and vice versa?Bridget: I would say it has.Katie: Yeah, how could it not.Bridget: I don't know how it wouldn't have at this point but I'm sure they've definitely influenced each other.Katie: That's the work life blend I think that was talked about at the beginning of this change at Starfire. It's not that we have to take our work home and do our work at home it just means that our work is actually is a way of life and we do it everywhere. We do it at our work but we don't clock out and go home and be sucky neighbors because it kind of just influences the way you live everywhere.36:19 – 38:14Katie: Why do you think it's important for you to do this work in people with disabilities lives?Bridget: Well I think the.. What I've seen in our own world and I think with some of the people that have started projects as families too is that it kind of spurs on the next thing. So by starting something it kind of opens another door, it's a ripple effect of all of it. So I think that is somebody starts something in their neighborhood and then you know you don't necessarily have to do it all, there will be other people who are motivated to something else then maybe you just show up to support them or tell them they did a great job later on. It's not you for everything, but I definitely think for more people to know each other is good for everyone, for sure.Katie: So what is your hope for the next ten years, in the next ten years, let's say ten years from now what is your hope for Bellevue?Bridget: I think that's pretty hard because I think Bellevue is pretty great right now it doesn't need to change anymore, but I'm sure there will be change in ten years and hopefully it will all be good change. My hope is that it is just a welcoming happy community for everyone and continues to be that and in ten years my sons will then be young adults will want to be there too. That this is a place where they want to be and feel as strongly connected to as they do now.Katie: And maybe carry through with some of the work that you guys have set?Bridget: Maybe I can't imagine.. In their own way they'll be doing something else. I have no doubt they'll be doing something.Katie: Maybe they'll run for mayor. One of them will run for mayor.Bridget: No, well maybe who knows. We'll see.Katie: Alright well thank you, I appreciate it.Bridget: Thank you Katie.

Have no fear, when it comes to social media. Share your opinions and what you know. Not everyone will like what you post, but that’s ok. Personal and professional Social media opportunities let you connect with others, build relationships, and post content to attract new business. Today, I am talking to Katie Lance, CEO and co-founder of Katie Lance Consulting. She helps real estate agents and brokers use social media to grow their businesses. Also, Katie is the author of #GetSocialSmart and founder of #GetSocialSmart Academy. She was named one of the most 100 influential people in real estate by Inman News and is a frequent contributor to The Huffington Post.  You’ll Learn... [02:40] Marketing Nerd: Katie didn't go to school for social media because there was no Facebook when she was in college.  [06:40] Social Media Challenge: Audience doesn’t care about property management.  [07:32] Don’t be Vanilla: Be engaging, interesting, unique, and authentic voice for what’s happening in your industry and market.  [10:08] Love vs. Hate: Share your opinions, and attract your tribe through polarity.  [12:20] People don’t buy what you do (property management), but why you do it.  [13:18] Warning: Don’t outsource all your social media, or you’ll lose your voice.  [15:59] Avoid anxiety and conquer fear of social media by creating a system or strategy.  [17:27] Day-in-the-Life of You: Done is better than perfect.  [22:05] Consistency and Batch Creating Content: The more you do it, the more comfortable you get.  [26:21] Repurposing Content: One piece can be posted on multiple platforms.  [27:15] Platform of Choice: Depends on your target audience.  [28:40] Future of Social Media: Instagram TV and video is where it’s at. [31:54] Personal and Professional Social Media Opportunities: Connect with others, build relationships, and post content to attract new business.  Tweetables Be you, instead of your business on social media. Done is better than perfect. Comment, Connect, and Create Content Don’t suffer from analysis paralysis. Resources Katie Lance Consulting Katie Lance on Instagram Katie Lance on Facebook #GetSocialSmart #GetSocialSmart Academy Inman News The Huffington Post Simon Sinek National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Instagram TV TikTok DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show, and today's guest, I'm hanging out with Katie Lance from Katie Lance Consulting. Hi, Katie. Katie: Hi, Jason. Thanks for having me here today. Jason: I am glad to have you. Katie, we’re going to be so social today. Katie: That would be a lot of fun. Jason: [...] social media and we're on social media right now. We're doing it. Katie, help everybody understand your background. Can I read some of your bio? Katie: Sure, go ahead.  Jason: It’s really well written. Katie is the CEO and co-founder of Katie Lance Consulting. Katie is a nationally known keynote speaker at conferences and events. For the past 10 years, Katie has been working with real estate agents and brokers to help them get smarter about how to use social media to grow their business. Her specialty is in helping real estate agents and brokers achieve big results using social media without spending a ton of time. She is also the author of the best-selling book, #GetSocialSmart and the founder of #GetSocialSmart Academy. Katie has been named one of the most 100 influential people in real estate by Inman News and is a frequent contributor to The Huffington Post. She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband and two beautiful boys. Katie, welcome to the show. Tell us how did you get into social media? How did this come about for you?  Katie: I’ve always loved social media. I've always been a marketing nerd. I’ve always been one of those people to just really love marketing and didn't necessarily go to school for social media, and probably dating myself, but there was no Facebook when I was in college. I fell in love with social media and probably about 10 or 12 years ago. I got my first job in real estate. I was hired as a marketing director for a local real estate company and that was really when social media was starting to come to the forefront. I just remember having this epiphany and thinking this is so perfect for real estate. I had seen so many agents and brokers spending so much money on traditional marketing, which, a lot of it still works. I don't necessarily think social media replaces traditional marketing, if that's working for you, but it can be so expensive. And I thought, what a great opportunity.  That's really where I fell in love with it. I worked at that real estate company for a while, then I went to work for In The News for quite some time, ran their social media, and grew their social presence. Then about 2012 I decided, “You know? I'm going to go out on my own,” and got that entrepreneurial bug and haven't looked back since. It's been quite a journey.  Jason: What caused you to take that leap? It's a risky leap. To preface this, I didn't realize I was an entrepreneur. Even though I was the guy that started a band in college, created big events, going door-to-door pre-selling CDs so I could pay for an album at college girls dorms with a guitar and a clipboard, I didn’t realize I was an entrepreneur. I thought I needed a job, but what pushed me over the edge to jump into entrepreneurism was a divorce and needing to take care and wanting to have time with my kids. Out of necessity, I had to do it. What caused you to take the leap? That's a pretty big leap. People don’t just go, “I've got a job that’s going pretty well. I’m just going to throw it to the wind and go do something on my own.” Katie: I think there’s a couple of things. I’ve always had an entrepreneurial spirit. Any job I've ever had, I've always treated it as if it were my company. It was always very hard for me to just “work a 9–5 and turn the off button off.” I guess I always had that attitude for anywhere I've ever worked and I had a great job [...]. I've worked there for many years and for a lot of people, you get to a point in your career where you have that itchy feeling, like what's that next thing. Jason: Something more. Katie: Yeah, there's something more and quietly started to explore other options. It just became really clear to me that I don't necessarily want to work for anyone else. I want to work for myself and I want to be able to help not just one company but lots of different people, lots of different companies, lots of different organizations. And it was scary. It's a whole another ballgame. I'm happily married, we have mortgage, we have kids, so it's not necessarily the easiest leap. The hardest part was just making that decision. Then you make the decision and it was pretty much smooth sailing from there. I also had a really supportive husband, which makes a big difference, too. Jason: I was going to ask about that. If a spouse is not in support as an entrepreneur, there's a lot of friction, right? Katie: Yes.  Jason: And a lot of times as entrepreneurs, we tend to pair up with people that want safety and certainty. They're our balance and our opposite.   Katie: Yes. Actually, he ended up quitting his corporate job about 2½ years ago, so now we run our company side-by-side and it's been a great journey. Jason: So you converted him? Katie: I think I did, yes. Jason: [...] to a job, right? Katie: Yes.  Jason: Perfect, love it. Let's get into the topic at hand, which is how people can grow social media. I tend to be upfront and honest. A lot of my listeners have heard me say, probably at different times, that the challenge that property managers face with social media is that their target audience does not care about property management.  They don't care at all and when they ask me, “Should I spend a bunch of time and energy doing social media?” my general response is, “How much time are you spending time following and listening to plumbers? Plumbers want your business. They want your attention. Why aren't you subscribing to their newsletters and following them on social media?” and they're like, “Because I don't care about plumbing.” I’m like, “Your audience don't care about property management.” What should they be doing? I'm excited to get into this. Katie: I think social media is relevant for obviously a lot of business owners, a lot of entrepreneurs and whether you're in property management or you're a plumber or whatever business you're in, that is the default response. “Well, who really cares? Is this really interesting to a lot of people?” At the end of the day, one of the ways to get traction on social media is to be that unique voice, that authentic voice of what's happening in your industry, what's happening in the market. People tend to follow you and engage with you, not necessarily for just facts and information that you're spewing out there, but because they connect with who you are and your personality.  It's amazing about the management or real estate, and a lot of it's so done through word-of-mouth. A lot of it is still done through those connections that we make. That's what I think there's a lot of value in social media. It's funny you mentioned plumbers because there's actually a plumber who's killing it on YouTube, because of exactly what you said, because most people don't think like, “Oh, who's going to put out that type of content?” But his content is engaging, it's interesting, it's valuable, but it's also with his voice.  That's the thing that property management. You could talk about renting or whoever and all these different topics when it comes to property management. But you can insert your own opinion, your voice and not be afraid to just be really truly who you are. Some people won’t like it and that’s okay. Those aren’t your people. Jason: I’m going to rephrase what you just said and sum it up. It's more important on social media to be you than to be your business. Katie: Absolutely.  Jason: That's really what's going to attract and get people to resonate and connect with you as if you're willing to put it out there and be you, weirdness and all, and that's something. People follow me on social media, no. I'm putting out random stuff all the time about my life and who I am, and I figure that some people are just not gonna like me.  Katie: Yeah, and that’s okay. Jason: There are definitely people that don’t like me.  Katie: Sometimes, we try to want to be really professional and we don't offend anybody. I'm certainly not saying start offending people on social media. But there's that risk of becoming just really vanilla and really boring. If you think about as an end user, somebody uses Facebook or Instagram, what do you click like on? What do you comment on? What do you share? Typically, it's things that are funny, or poignant, or interesting, or they move you in some emotion, you get angry. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion. That's where I think in real estate and property management, really for any entrepreneur, that's where the magic is because most people are not putting up that type of content. If they are, they're not doing it on a consistent basis. That's a big thing that can make a huge difference. Jason: People should have an opinion and share their opinion on Facebook and let their freak flag fly, right?  Katie: Yes, and be comfortable with the fact when you do that, there’s going to be people that watch you and say, I don’t like that guy or girl. You have to be okay with that because with the opposite, which will happen, is that you will start to attract the people who go, “I really like that guy. He's doing a podcast? What other podcasts? I got to catch up on all of his podcast episodes.” That's what happens with video. When you start putting out especially episodic video or episodic podcast content, people start defining you. They’re like, “What else does she put out there?” and you search who attract your tribe. That's what can turn to business down the road. It just takes time just like anything else.  Jason: I’ve always thought this is very in align with what I think and feel, is that if you are not creating polarity, if there's no polarity, then you can’t be attractive. A magnet without polarity is not a magnet anymore. It's not attract anything. Nothing will be pulled towards it. Electricity without polarity doesn't exist anymore if you remove the polarity. There has to be polarity and that means you have to be willing to polarize someone there. I've probably been a little too polarizing in some instances; let's be honest. But I've noticed that when you are willing to just be you and polarize and put it out there, yes, you're going to have people that don't like you. You’re going to get flack for that, people are not going to attract you, but you now are attracting the right people. You’re attracting people that like you the way that you are. They like the way you communicate, they like the way that you coach, they like the way that you run your business, they like your philosophy.  Just like Simon Sinek said, “People don't buy what you do.” They don't buy what you do. They don’t buy property management, they don’t property management coaching/consulting from me, they don't buy what you do, they don't buy social media, whatever from you. They really buy why we do it. That's really what they're buying into is they believe in Katie, they believe in Jason, they believe in the property manager, they believe in you and they share values. What you do is really an afterthought compared to that. So, they need to create polarity. This is a great question everybody listening can ask is am I creating polarity? Have I offended anybody in the last month? And have I attracted anybody in the last month? Did anybody say, “Hell yes, I agree to that,” or, “That totally rubs me the wrong way,” but that's you, so thanks for sharing.  Katie: Absolutely. Jason: We don't want to be vanillas. What’s maybe the next thing that we should take away? Katie: Like I said, don't be vanilla. I've often said, “Lean into who you are and who you're not.” It goes hand in hand with that idea of not being vanilla. I also think a big part of your social media strategy is not outsourcing it completely. There's this feeling even still in 2019 of, “Oh, my gosh. I don’t have time to do this. It's one more thing. Who can I hire to do it?” It's a little bit of a slippery slope because I do think that there's value in hiring certain people. For example, we have a video editor on our team because my value is being on camera but I don't need to learn video editing, I really don't need it. For one or two, that's fine, but I don't have desire. Jason: That’s not your dream and goal in life is to edit videos and stare at videos on the screen for hours a day. Katie: Exactly, it’s not my dream. I’d rather put my eye out, honestly. Jason: Me neither. Katie: Similar with podcast. My value is in the content and the education I can bring, not necessarily in can I edit something. I think there's value in bringing at some point, maybe not in the beginning, people on who could help you with either editing, for example video or podcast editing, or copywriting if you enjoy writing, or something as a blogger or graphic designer, but to totally hand out who are personally is really risky and there's lots of businesses out there that are selling this idea. “You're too busy. Let us do it for you.” I would just caution anyone to be just be careful when you do that because you're handing off who you are. It's like having a dinner party with your 10 most important clients, and instead of you being there, you have your assistant run the whole thing. I just think it's a basic tip, but it's also something that is important to address because time is all we have. It's our most precious asset. I don't think you need to spend all day on social media. I'm in the business of social media and I'm certainly not on social media all day long, but it comes down to having a smart system, and making sure you're inserting yourself and your personality into what you do. I think that's really valuable.  Jason: This makes a lot of sense. I think there's so many parallels to this. There's so many situations in which we would not outsource. I wouldn't outsource to somebody to be the dad of my kids. I'm really single again after two decades, so I wouldn't outsource somebody else to use swiping on dating apps for me. They just don’t know what I’m into.  There's a lot of things we just should not outsource. And yet, being the face of our business, we will a lot of times as business owners, want to just outsource that, like some company can just come in and post a bunch of memes and garbage, and we're suddenly going to get business from it and then we wonder why it's not working. What about those business owners that are not charismatic, they don't have personality, they're better behind the scenes, they just feel really awkward putting anything out there. How do you deal with that? Some of the listeners avoid social media. Social is like an anxiety-inducing word to them.  Katie: For a lot of people who are anxious or feel a little overwhelmed with social media, I would imagine part of it is because you don't have a system for, and it feels like this thing that's out there, that you have to do, that you don't really know how to do it right, and everybody saying that you have to do it, but you don't really have a plan. It just becomes sort of the snowball. The thing is, anytime you're trying something new, especially with technology, it can feel ridiculously annoying. You feel like, “Oh, my God. What am I? How do I not know how to do this?” and it's just like anything else. We work with a lot of agents and brokers. I always say, “Imagine when you first got your real estate license. You took the test, you went through the courses, but you didn't really know what you're doing until you had your first client. And then you really learn. And then you learn again and again and again.” Part of it is just getting over and putting yourself out there. Sometimes we're so concerned with who am I, who cares what people think, I don't know, I don't like how I look or how I sound, I don't know how to do it, so I’m not going to do it. I always like to say, “Done is better than perfect.” Jason: Oh, my gosh. I [...] that, too. I love that. Katie: I’d love to say I made that up. I did not make that up. I’ve heard it somewhere and probably from you. Jason: Maybe not. I think I got it from my business coach. I’m sure he got it from somewhere, too. Katie: You just start today. So if you’re listening to this, start today. Go on Facebook and connect with three or four people at Facebook today. Don’t just like a bunch of stuff, but go on engage with a few people. Wish somebody a happy birthday. Start today. Then you can move on from there. Part of it is just getting a system together, getting a process together. One quick thing I'll mention real fast for anyone who's feeling a little bit overwhelmed, I would encourage you to think about all the things that you do on a day-to-day basis, all the questions you get asked, all the topics of conversation that come up. Get a notebook, get a pen, and just start brainstorming things that happen a day in the life of you. I would imagine you're going to come up with 10, 20, 30 different topics of things that you could potentially talk about, whether that's through video or on Facebook or whatever it might be. Just go to start. “Just do it,” like Nike says. Jason: I love the concept of done is better than perfect. I put that because a lot of times we're trying to get clients to launch their websites, we're trying to get them to take action and moving themselves forward on different things, and they just stay analyze really hard about something and they want it to be so perfect. I just iterate over and over again, done is better than perfect because once it's done, it can do its job in making money. You can go back and change it later, you can improve it later, but get something done because until you have something there, until you have the website up, or until you have this launch, or until you've done something, it's nothing to do anything for you. The other mantra that I'll share with everybody listening, if you're in that state of overwhelm, you’re feeling scared, whatever, just remember that that's how you start everything. One of my favorite mantras is, we all start at level suck. That's where you start in everything. You start at level suck. That is the level you started everything. My first YouTube video was two minutes long and had 30 uhms and and so's in it, and I had to edit them out. The video looked choppy and it was awful. It was so awful. I tried to get perfect lighting, I have my little mic clip thing, an uncomfortable shirt with a collar, and I was trying to be what I thought I needed to be in order to do a video and look good. I'd probably spent hours making a two-minute video. Here's the ironic thing for everybody listening. You think it has to be so perfect? I've made way more money by doing really crappy, shaky, jittery, selfie style videos, walking around outside, than any of those videos were I was uncomfortable behind a desk or in a shirt or whatever in front of a whiteboard.  Don't think it has to be perfect. People will crave reality nowadays because there's so much BS. They’re really craving reality. The other thing I point out to clients, is that they are talking to people all day, every day and it's really the same thing. You just look at a device and pretend you're talking to a person, you just say exactly what you would say and talk the same way. You don't have to think, “What am I going to do with my hands?” What do you do with your hands normally when you talk to people? “How’s my face supposed to like?” How does your face normally look? Just talk. You have the thing like you're talking to a person. So, just start noticing when you're talking to people and pretend they're a camera or a phone and just realize they're not that scary or awkward.  Katie: Absolutely. To your point, it doesn't have to be perfect. What a lot of people don't realize that maybe they forget is the lifetime of a post is pretty short. Let’s say you create a video, you put it on Facebook, that video will disappear in a couple hours. You put it on Twitter, tweet disappears in a matter of seconds. YouTube has a longer shelf life and certain content certainly has a longer shelf life. But generally speaking, we live in a world with so much noise, I often feel like I'm standing on the side of the freeway just watching cars fly by. If it's not your best performance, it doesn't have to be Oscar-worthy. As you said, just get it out there and especially with video, it's like a muscle. I will say the more you do it, the more comfortable you get. I don't know if I'm ever totally comfortable hearing myself and seeing myself, but what I am comfortable with are the results. That's what you have to think about. When you put yourself out there over the course of time consistently, that's when the magic happens. It's literally like a snowball and the consistency part is a huge part of it. Do you mind if I share a quick tip? Jason: Go ahead. Give us all the tips you want to. We want some free Katie Lance Consulting right now. Katie: Perfect. One of the things I always share with our GetSocialSmart Academy members is this idea of batch-creating your content. I love batch creating because for me, if I'm going to sit down, do my hair and makeup, and record one video, I might as well sit down and record four or five. We've been doing that the last couple years and that's made a huge difference. We'll set aside a couple hours once a month where I do the hair, get the camera set up, whatever. To be honest with you, the first 99 episodes were shot on my phone. So, it doesn't have to be anything fancy. This idea of getting into a system and batch-creating your content, that way you're done, you're locked and loaded. When we do that, then we're able to drip out those episodes once a week for the next month, but it gets you into that rhythm. When you're publishing at the same day and time every single week, people who start to follow you, as we talked about earlier, they start to notice that. It's just like your favorite TV show, you may not watch your favorite TV show Thursday night at 9:00 PM or Monday at 8:00 PM, but you know it's on and you set your DVR. It's the same thing with content. Once you start to put it out there regularly, if you can start doing it consistently, it can make a big difference.  Jason: Absolutely. That's one of the reasons I really like my assistant; made this show finally somewhat consistent. We're getting about two episodes done a week now. Consistency is huge because as soon as you disappear for a week or two, people are wondering if you're gone. You lose the engagement, you lose the momentum, so done is better than perfect, but consistency is better than anything, really, probably.  Katie: People wonder what's the best day. There's no best day. What day is good for you? Just pick a day. I remember when I first started sending out and email newsletters, it’s like, “Well, let's do it on a Saturday. I don't know. That sounds like a good day.” Seven years later, we're still sending our email newsletters out on Saturday, and people are like, “Oh, I love it. Get it every Saturday morning.” It's just consistency. So, pick a day. Jason: Love it. I love the idea of batching tasks, and you can apply that to so many different things. I just did a post on this on social media about this and I showed my pill case. I hate going and digging through all my supplement bottles every single meal, trying to figure out what I'm supposed to be taking. So, I got this pill case. It’s literally the size of a notebook. It's got every day of the week, four times a day, and I fill it once a week. If I travel I can take it with me. It's done, I can just take these supplements. That's how I'm able to be so sharp and so crazy all day long. No, I’m just kidding. Batching tasks reduces the decision-making that has to go into and the thought that has to go into it every day. You don't have to sit there, stress out, and “What should I talk about today? Oh, my gosh. I need to do a post. I haven't done it for a couple days,” and thinking about it. I love the idea of batch the tasks and we've got a pile of them waiting. Even with this podcast, we've got several episodes in the can. We're releasing them to iTunes and dripping them out because we want to have a little bit of padding. There's an advantage to having some things in the can, especially if you want to keep the consistency. What if you want to travel? I'm going to Austin this week to meet with my business coach. Next week, I'm going to Phoenix to talk to the NARPM Chapter in Phoenix. We’ll still be able to release some episodes while I'm gone.  Katie: That's awesome. What you're doing which is so smart is you're repurposing your content. We're streaming this live, it's getting shared on social media, but you're going to put it on YouTube, at some point, you're going to put it on iTunes. That's really where the magic can happen because instead of feeling like you have to post something every single day, why not invest in one great piece of content like this podcast you're creating.  That's what we try to do, too. It's one piece of great content, and then it can get sliced and diced a dozen different ways. You can turn it into an Instagram story or an Instagram post today and a post some two or three weeks, especially when you create content that's somewhat timeless. It's not just relevant on what's happening in the market, but it's going back to sharing things that are informative, that are really helping your audience, that have a voice, have an opinion, and that repurposing, there's a lot of magic in that. Jason: Let's talk about platform then. How do people pick? Because they're like, “Should I be on Instagram? Should I be doing LinkedIn? Should I be doing Facebook? Should I be on Twitter?” What's your recommendation when people are like, “What platform should I be on?” Katie: It depends on a couple things. Number one, where your audience is. Right now, typically, Facebook is still the number one platform for a lot of people in property management or real estate or even as an entrepreneur. But I also think that's changing as well. Instagram is growing by leaps and bounds. A lot of people have started to leave Facebook and go over to Instagram, even though Instagram is owned by Facebook, because Instagram is such an aspirational platform, lots of pretty pictures, there's not as many political posts and noise on Instagram right now. I think those are two big ones to watch.  I do think for LinkedIn, though, it's important to at least have your profile updated. Make sure that's up to date. LinkedIn is not as fun as Facebook or Instagram, but if you get googled or your company gets googled, typically, one of the first things that pops up is LinkedIn. Just making sure that's up to date, that's professional social network. Outside of LinkedIn, I do think Facebook and Instagram are two big platforms to connect with people, stay in touch with people, and then also to post relevant content and to repurpose some of the content you're creating. Jason: What do you think is coming new in social media? I'm sure you're always paying attention. What do you think coming up that's hot, that probably the teenagers are using that we’ll eventually be using? Katie: Good question. Snapchat was getting a lot of buzz a year or two ago, that a lot of folks in real estate were jumping on that. I think a lot of people realize it's still for the kids. Jason: I think the Instagram stories and Facebook stories killed it.  Katie: I agree. I think a big opportunity right now is definitely Instagram. Instagram is spending a lot of money and resources for people to stay on their platform. Especially Instagram TV right now is a big opportunity. That launched about a year or two ago. It’s doing so-so and then Instagram made some really big changes pretty recently to Instagram TV. When you're uploading a video to Instagram TV—if you don't know, you can upload a video up to 10 minutes—when you upload it to Instagram TV, you now share a one minute preview over to your newsfeed on Instagram, which shows up on your page, it shows up in your newsfeed, which is more likely that it shows up in the explore button. We found that for whatever reason, Instagram wants you to spend more time on Instagram TV. Our posts on Instagram TV are getting a much higher reach, likes, and engagement than just about any of our other posts. As of right now, as of the recording this podcast, that's definitely one to watch. It just reinforces a lot of what we're talking about with video. Jason: I will have to start doing those. When they started doing it, I was like, “This isn’t getting any attention,” but I have noticed, I have watched a few videos on Instagram, and I've hit that button that says, “Keep watching.” Katie: Yeah, it definitely keeps you engaged. We used to just beginning a couple of hundred views on our videos and now we’re consistently getting thousands of views on our videos. It's nothing really different that we've done other than just be consistent with putting up that content, sharing it over to our news feed. I think, ultimately, video is worth that. If you’re not creating original video content in your business, you’re missing a really big opportunity. Facebook even recently just came out over the last couple weeks and said, “Video has one of the highest rates in the Facebook newsfeed, original video content versus content that’s shared from somebody else.” If there was ever a time to get over, “How do I look?” or, “How do I sound?” or, “I have nothing to say,” now's the time to do it. Jason: Just do it. Nike. Katie: Just do it, yes. Jason: I'll just throw this out there because somebody is going to mention it later. If they have teenagers, I think TikTok right now is the thing. Katie: It is, yes. Jason: My teenager’s really into this TikTok thing. I don't know if that will somehow eventually translate to business, but let’s see where it gets. Katie: It might. It's fun to watch. It’s entertaining. Jason: It’s like the new Vine. It’s ridiculous. Katie: Exactly. Jason: Any other tips or takeaways we can squeeze out of Katie Lance before we let you go? Katie: If you are in real estate in any capacity or an entrepreneur, I really can't emphasize enough. There's two big opportunities with social. The personal side of it, being intentional, taking just 5 or 10 minutes a day to connect with people, wish people happy birthday, don’t just be a drive-by liker, actually be a person, connect. That relationship-building piece is so important. Then, that other piece is putting out new content, which is going to attract new business. I just would encourage anybody who's listening to really think about it. I love using techniques like time blocking where you're setting aside time, a couple of times a week, maybe it's just 15 minute blocks of time, or a couple times a month, to really get a system together. If you think about the areas of your business you’re most successful in, most likely there's some sort of system or process. Whether or not you're working with us or anybody else, that's my biggest tip. Get the system, get a process together, and don't wait. Don't suffer from analysis paralysis. Just do it. Jason: All right. Awesome. I love it. So, commenting and connecting, and then content and creation are things we need to build our social network, and we need to create social media. Two different things. Katie, if people are wanting to get a plan, get organized, figure this stuff out, be interesting, and learn social media, how can they get in touch with you? Katie: The best way is through our website, people can go to katielance.com. We have a free content grid that anyone can sign up for. It's a great planning guide. So, if you're listening to this going, “Okay, I’m stuck when it comes to putting a system together,” you can download that content grid for free right on our website. We have hundreds of free resources on our website, as well. Of course, I'm Katie Lance kon just about every social media platform. You can find me on Instagram or Facebook also. Jason: Awesome. Cool. And then anybody listening can also connect with me. I’m King Jason Hull on all social media. There we go, we were just very social, sharing ideas about social media. Katie, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks for being here. Katie: Thank you so much for having me. Jason: Really cool. Check her out at katielance.com. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and make a difference, as I said in the intro, be sure to reach out, connect with DoorGrow, we would love to help you figure out how to grow your business. If you feel stuck or frustrated, you feel like you're trying to do a bunch of marketing, pay per click, SEO, content marketing, social media marketing, and it's not working for some reason. You may have some blind spots. We can help you organize, sort out those blind spots, and get some clarity on the business, to help you focus on the growth side of your business. We would love to help you do that. If you want to see a big blind spot, you can start with a very public one, your website. Take our website quiz by going to doorgrow.com/quiz and grade your website. This will give you a letter grade for your website. Most websites fail going through this and this quiz will grade your website as to how effective it is at making your money, at creating conversions, at attracting leads. Go ahead and fill that out and then we'll be in touch with you.  Thanks everybody for tuning in to the DoorGrow Show. Until next time to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.  

Join the Marriage After God movement today: https://marriageaftergod.com"Exposing how God is at work in the world reminds us of who God is and what can be done when we say yes to Him." - Marriage After GodPrayerDear Lord, Thank You for using ordinary people to do such extraordinary things in this world. It is only by Your power that we are able to say Yes with courage and do all that You ask us to do. We pray we would be quick to say yes to You and trust You to help us. No matter what You invite us to do, may we never forget or neglect to do the things You have already commanded us to do in Your Word. Help us to be faithful and obedient people. We pray our marriage would be used by You to make an impact in this world and to draw people’s hearts closer to Yours. We pray our marriage would be a gift to You, blessing Your name. We pray our marriage would reflect Your amazing love. We pray for an extraordinary marriage and we ask You to use us in extraordinary ways for Your names sake. May You be glorified through us. In Jesus’ name, amen!Read Transcript- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith, with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're in part 14 of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Sean and Katie Ferrell about having an extraordinary marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer. Also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron. Also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage encouraging them to walk in faith everyday. - [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life, - [Aaron] Love, - [Jennifer] And power - [Aaron] That could only be found by chasing after God - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Hey, guys. Thanks so much joining us today. We just wanna take a minute to encourage you all to go leave us a review. It's super simple. You just scroll to the bottom of the app, hit that star rating, or leave a comment review. These encourage us so much but they also let other people know where to Marriage After God podcast so go take a minute and do that for us. - [Aaron] And also the reason we're doing this podcast is because of our new book coming out called Marriage After God and we'd love for you to get a copy. It supports this ministry. It supports what we do. And also, it supports your marriage. It's gonna encourage you. We wrote this book for you and your marriage to help you see what God has for you. You can go to shop.marriageaftergod.com and you can pick up a copy today. - [Jennifer] Okay, so today we have our friends, Sean and Katie Ferrell. We just wanna say, hi guys, thanks for joining us today. - Hey there. - Hey! We're super excited to be here. - [Jennifer] Awesome. Well, just to let everyone else know who's listening who you are, how many children you have, what you do, all of that awesome stuff. Go for it. - [Katie] So I'm Katie Ferrell. - [Sean] And I'm Sean Ferrell. - [Katie] And we were married for about 10 years. It will be 10 years this August. And we have one daughter, she's almost two. Her name is Madelaine. And we work together from home doing a website called Dashing Dish which is basically a ministry that really focuses on caring for our bodies God's way as well as nutritious recipes and workouts and all the good stuff that really hones in on living a healthy lifestyle God's way. - [Aaron] This is one of the reasons why we wanted to interview you guys is because you together do this and I know that Dashing Dish is mostly your face Katie but Sean you have a big part in this, right? - [Sean] Yeah, yeah. So I actually pretty much almost everyday working on the graphic side of Dashing Dish's marketing. So I spend my time doing blog post images, new website designs, new app designs, anything that she needs, I try to give to her right away so... - [Aaron] So you guys are a team it's awesome. And that's one of the things we love about you guys is because you do it together. We do what we do together and you just remind us a lot of us and we wanted to use your story today to help encourage those listening. - [Jennifer] Well actually, to clarify, we share you guys' story in this chapter of Marriage After God which we appreciate you guys sharing with us. We won't dive in too much into too much detail 'cause we want people to go read the book but we are gonna share some extra stuff today that will be inspiring and encouraging and I think we should start with the icebreaker. - [Aaron] Yeah. So the icebreaker question for you guys is... One second. So the icebreaker question is what is your favorite life hack? - [Katie] Oh it's so funny 'cause we were going back and forth and we're creating all kinds of funny answer for this and we're like well definitely our daughter's pacifier is a life hack because it saved us - Yes it is. - time and time again whenever we're in public. That's just a general life hack when you have one girl. No, but for real, honestly, we don't wanna sound like we're coming off fake or like, you know, we're just perfect people but truly our life hack is setting our alarm and waking up early and spending time with the Lord and I call it a life hack because - That's a good one. - we know that we would not be able to do anything that we're doing without that. I'm a morning person. Sean is not. So this was something that was definitely not natural for him but he realized pretty early on when we had a newborn that he had to set his alarm and he had to make that time because the day just gets away from you. So we wake up before, you know, while it's still dark out. We make coffee and we get right into the Word in our own separate rooms. - [Aaron] That's awesome. That's a good life hack. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it's practical but it's also... It feeds the spiritual sides of things which is what we need to be at. Like you said, to do the things that we need to do. So with God. - [Aaron] Yeah and just being at... Just normal, without children, we need to be able to walk in the spirit. But with kids, we definitely need to walk in the spirit. So activating that early in the morning is super important. What we're gonna do is this chapter that we're talking about... So we've been doing this series and every episode's been on every chapter in the book. So this chapter, we tell a bunch of stories from what we call ordinary people doing extraordinary things because there's really no extraordinary people in the world. There's just ordinary people that do extraordinary things that they say yes to God and God uses the things that he's given them. So we wanted to read a quote from that chapter and then we'll get into the questions with you guys. It's from chapter 14 and it says this. "Exposing how God is at work in the world "reminds us of who God is and what "can be done when we say yes to Him." - [Jennifer] So I love this quote and to me it's saying, you know, all of our yeses to God are really impactful and when we get the chance to share our story and share what he's done in us and through us that testimony inspires other people and encourages them so that was one of the reasons why we decided to share other people's stories in this chapter including your guys' and again, we just wanna say thank you for doing that. - [Aaron] Yeah. And then the other thing is, there's often this, and we can talk about this a little bit later but there's this sense that unless we are in some sort of specific ministry, unless we have this specific giftings or talents that we see other people have, we might feel like we're not, you know, useful to God. We might feel like we don't have anything special to be used or you know, we don't have these special gifts. Or we don't have this website or this ministry or this, you know, big audience, whatever thing we wanna compare ourselves to that might keep us from stepping into thing that God does have for us. Again, which is why we shared other people's stories, not just our own is because we believe that every single person of the body of Christ, every single marriage in the body of Christ God wants to use and must be used. It's a part of His body. Every part has been given a gift and has been given something to be done for Him. And so we wanted let everyone listening know that this means you also. So it's not just for Jennifer and I and it's not just for Sean and Katie. It's not for all the other people that we've done these interviews with only. It's for everyone. Just a precursor why we're doing this episode and why we wrote this chapter specifically. Jennifer, why don't you start with the first question. - [Jennifer] Okay, so how do you guys see the contrast of how the world defines what is extraordinary and how God sees extraordinary. - [Sean] Yeah, I think... We were going over this and I thought, you know, it was interesting that you phrased it like that because when I think of something that's extraordinary, I see the creation around us. I see, you know, all these amazing, you know, landscapes and sunrise and sunsets and just things that God created that's extraordinary to me but I started thinking more of like you know, the people around us were doing all the little things that God, you know, that they're saying yes to God. And I kept thinking, you know, what we're doing, sometimes it feels mundane and feels like everyday you're kinda doing the same thing maybe like Groundhog's Day but we know we're producing something hopefully that's extraordinary in someone else's life and hopefully, it's making an impact of a change in different ways and whether it's health or food or you know, getting free from wrong mindsets or-- - [Katie] And even just like-- - [Sean] Yeah, yeah, like that. - [Katie] And even just in being parents. I mean sometimes it can just feel like Sean said, like Groundhog's Day. You're doing the same thing, routine everyday. But just knowing that we're raising the next generation for kingdom of God and how powerful and extraordinary that is but we really believe that what God says it's extraordinary is people, relationships, and how he's created everyone of us so incredibly unique with a personal fingerprint that no one else has. And yet, you look around and what does the world says extraordinary. It's so different. They exalt fame. Status. - [Sean] Salary. - [Katie] You know, followers, money, all of that. And yet, that is just simply so shallow. I've been around and seen those things so up close and yet I see those people that don't know the Lord and it seems like they have everything and yet they truly are empty when you really get to talking with them and so just having a full life and really seeing the extraordinary things really is brought out by knowing the Lord and what his plan and purpose is for your individual life and walking that out. - [Aaron] Love that. Yeah, it makes me think of, you know, money. And I think in James when it talks about... When James is talking to the rich in the church, the wealthy. And he says, "remember that's your humiliation." And then he talks about the porn. He says, "you're gonna be exalted." And there's this oppositeness. This reverse economy that we see in God's kingdom. Not that it's bad to have wealth. It's all in where our hearts are at and whose is it. Is it ours or is it God's? Are stewarding it or are we owning it? - [Jennifer] And who gets the glory for it. - [Aaron] And who gets the glory for it. I love you mentioned the small things, Sean. We think there's small things. Especially in a world currently that is so anti-children. This is just one topic in the world's views. Anti-children. And the children are not just our future. You were a child once. And the way you were raised and that you guys gave your hearts to Christ and now God's using you to do that for others and for your own child and you know, we always say, we're building the kingdom. Our children were growing disciples. We're raising disciples and it may seem mundane but it's... Who else do you get to spend 18-20 years with? Teaching about the Lord and loving on them and showing them through example and through Word. God is. We don't get many of those relationships in this world but God blesses us with children to do that. - [Katie] That's true, that's true. - [Aaron] And that's not a small thing. The world says it's a small thing 'cause they get in the way of the big things, right. Just like the disciples were like, get the children away. Jesus is doing his ministry. And Jesus like, "Whoa, whoa, let the children come to me." - [Jennifer] So I just wanna add too just as an encouragement for all the people listening that perspective is a huge thing. If you see, you know, your day in and day out with your children mundane or your job or whatever it is that you do on daily basis. It will fill that way in your heart but if you have eyes too see it as an extraordinary thing. And this is our encouragement to you today, is if you see it as an extraordinary thing, then you'll be able to kind of receive and given those moments in a different way because your perspective is different. - [Katie] So true. - [Aaron] It makes me think of... Just while we're talking about our perspective. When we realized that everything we're doing is a spiritual thing. As the Bible says, "it's not a battle "against flesh and blood. "But against the principalities "and the spiritual realm." The things that we're doing no matter how ordinary or boring they think, they are spiritual things. So how we're raising our children. The things we say. The things we do, where we go. All of it, they're spiritual things. So when we recognize that. We're spiritual creatures doing spiritual things in this world. It makes those ordinary things much more extraordinary 'cause these are gonna have eternal impact. These things we do. - [Jennifer] There's purpose behind it. - [Aaron] Yeah, there's purpose behind it. And so it might not match what the world says is valuable or purposeful. You know like saving the planet, right. But we know what's gonna happen to the planet. How God's gonna change that. Doesn't mean we don't be good stewards of the planet but what the world says is extraordinary is temporary. - [Sean] Definitely. - [Aaron] And what God says extraordinary is eternal. - Amen. - You know. - [Jennifer] That's good. - [Aaron] So most often, God's love is shared through the simplest acts of us saying, "Yes, Lord." We will do that. What have been some of your favorite yeses to God in your own life? - [Katie] Well, I would say definitely Dashing Dish because when I started Dashing Dish... Well, I was working full time as a nurse. And I went to school five years to be a nurse and it was hard work to get my degree. So we were newly married. I just started my nursing job and Sean said, "Hey, let me create "a little website, you know, just to "a side hobby for you to, you know, "start sharing your recipes and "also your testimonies and devotionals." So I just it would be a side hobby and about a year in, I realized that God was calling me to something much greater than I thought it would ever be. When we made that decision, it was definitely a hard one to make because of the fact that I did, you know, I just got my first nursing job. I worked so hard to get there. And then I was saying goodbye to it and I was saying yes to God with Dashing Dish. As you can imagine, that was definitely a challenging decision to make. However, I believe that God gave us so many clear confirmations and so many words to, you know, push us in the direction and say, "I'm leading you here. "Don't be afraid." However, there still are natural fears that comes in. And when ever we've said yes to God in anything in our lives, we can always pull back to these big moments where we've said yes and we know that God has come through for us and that single act of obedience has paved the way for so many different times in the last 10 years that we've said, "Okay, look at that time that "we were obedient on what God has done." And now we can be sure that if we're obedient in these other decisions that has come along the way that God will continue to show himself faithful. And another one was actually with Maddy. I was having a hard time getting pregnant. One of the things that I knew that I knew in my spirit was that I had to slow down if I was gonna get pregnant. I was traveling so much. I was working so hard. I would wake up at six in the morning and work until really almost 'til we went to bed at that time. I never slowed down. And my doctor said, "Hey, you need to just take a vacation." But I knew deep down that God was speaking to my heart for quite some time to just slow down. And it wasn't until I rested and I started to say no to a lot of things and put clear boundaries up where I knew God was telling me to. And that wasn't easy because you know, I turned down a lot of great opportunities and they were all good things but I knew deep down that they weren't God. When I did that, when I started to just hold back on all of you know, the open doors and I really chose the ones that I knew were from God and said no to the others, that was when I got pregnant. That was just one other instance but gosh, there have been countless that we have made the hard choices to be obedient and some weren't hard. Some were a little bit easier. But we always knew that the first thing that we had to do was A, seek God and pray together in every decision. And B, follow peace and seek peace and pursue it. And so even if it's not easy in our natural minds, we always have this heart piece that comes over us when it is God and so anytime we've said yes to Him. Yeah. He has been so good to us. - [Sean] That's true. - [Jennifer] Amen. That was also encouraging. - [Aaron] Sounds a lot like our story even because it's funny how often, and we've seen this in many, many people's stories. It doesn't come out of a, hey, I'm gonna go start this big thing and I'm gonna go do this... It's usually a hey I'm gonna, you know, on the side, I'm gonna try and encourage some people over here. I wanna use this part of my life over here. All while working a full time job. And then all of a sudden, there's a choice that has to be made. Oh, I have to do this thing over here. Full time now. How God works that way. That was similar to ours where we started Unveiled Wife and it was a side thing. It was exactly the same reason. - [Jennifer] I would describe it as incremental invitations so like you say yes - Oh yeah, I like that. - and then He takes you a little bit further and you say yes and what happens is you build this trust with God like well, I've already said yes five time to Him in this direction and He's asking me to take one more step and I can trust Him. Kinda like you were saying Katie. So I just, I really was encouraged with everything you've shared. - [Aaron] And it's very similar to how the master goes to the servants and the faithful ones that brought an increase with the talents they were given. He says, "You were faithful with little. "Now, I'll put you over much." And those incremental invitations, it's God seeing if we're gonna be obedient. It's how we are with our children. You probably experienced this with Maddy. You give them little bits of room to see how they're gonna respond. Are they gonna honor you? Are they gonna listen to you? So that you can give them more and more over time. And you know, they make mistakes and we do too. Sometimes we don't... We don't say yes very well. I know that's been true in my life. - [Katie] Learning course. - [Aaron] But you know, God's got in his patience with us. And that's what's awesome. And that's what we wanna encourage those listening is it just takes one yes after another. It doesn't mean like tomorrow you're like, well I can't handle a huge whatever this kind of ministry or that. God's good. He doesn't do that. He's gonna allow you to do what you're capable of doing. When the spirit distributed gifts. It says it was distributed according to the abilities of those he gave it too. So it's not according to someone else's ability that he distributed a gift to you. He distributed according to your ability. I love that. Just the incremental. That was a good incremental invitation. - [Jennifer] So you guys, how long have you been doing Dashing Dish now? - 10 years. - Yeah, 10. - [Jennifer] Wow, that's awesome guys. So cool. Okay so can you explain just for those listening to encourage them in that decision of saying yes to God as God was moving you forward in. Working together on Dashing Dish, how did you two say yes to God? What were some of the elements you said that you prayed together. But can you walk us through what that look like in your marriage? - [Sean] Yeah. I look back and I remember it was an interesting time for me as well. I was doing design work on the side and then I was also, it's gonna sound completely random. I actually owned four franchises of the ice cream company called Dippin' Dots. - [Aaron] Nice. - [Sean] It's so funny looking back. It feels like a dream but... - [Katie] That was just preparing him then to be an entrepreneur. - [Sean] I looked back and there was a lot of steps in that process but ultimately was kinda like my school for business almost. It might learn a lot through that. But during that time I remember, I was at the mall 10 hours a day serving ice cream. Making logos while I didn't have any customers. I remember, me and Katie we talked about starting a website, starting Dashing Dish and at that same time, I felt like, she was obviously supposed to move on from that and so we prayed about that a lot and then it was almost like with the yasp it was almost like a no as well for me because I felt the Lord prompt in me to finally close the chapter on Dippin' Dots and move away from that and that's something... That was something I did for about seven years. - Wow. - And it was kind of like... It never made any, never made any money but it was like a comfort zone almost and it was really nerve raking for me to step out and so design full time and I remember when we did that, we said yes and we literally closed the door on the chapter and the next week, I had more projects. The next months I had more projects than I could have ever dreamed of. - [Katie] Because my first question of course, well if I leave my nursing job, how are we gonna make money? We did use a practical wisdom. We did seek wise counsel. My dad who is a CFO. We sought wise counsel. We also sat down and say, can we pay for our apartment rent. And could we eat still. We weren't like totally blind. But after we said yes, we can still eat and we can still have roof over our head, let's do it and God did. He came through big for us. Took care of us every single time we had needs, they were met. - [Sean] Yeah and as soon as you had quit your job, we obviously didn't make money with Dashing Dish right away, we didn't even have the game plan of how we were gonna monetize it and the Lord kept giving us this revelations that this website. I swear the day that you quit your job, I was able to get projects that made up for your income right away. - [Jennifer] That's so cool. - [Aaron] I just wanna highlight what you just said, the practical wisdom. One thing that we've seen that is detrimental in the believer's life is walking in foolishness. And saying, "Oh God told me to do this." And then they go. And there's no counsel. There's no wisdom. And failure comes. Really quick after that. Sometimes it's small failures. Sometimes it's big failure. And God, he's not a God of chaos. He loves counsel. He loves wisdom for us as believers. That's one of the gifts he's given to us and he says in James, "If you lack wisdom to ask for it. "And he'll give it to us." And in Proverbs it tells us, it says, "By wise counsel, one wages war." It talks about counsel and our plans being established. I just wanna highlight that. In saying yes to God, it's God's way that we get to say yes. Not our way. And his way is wisdom. He says I have this for you. And one of the ways we know that is for us is that he makes a way for it also. And we find wisdom in other believers that we trust and know that we see good fruit in and they say, hey yeah do this but make sure this is in order. Hey do this but make sure this is in order. So you're not losing a home or you know, losing cars, or not being able to eat or feed your children. - Right? - Right, right. - [Aaron] But you guys did that. You said yes but then the next step was well, let's figure out how this yes was gonna work. - [Sean] The biggest thing is you have to be you have to teachable. I did a long read through Proverbs. I started ticking out all the scriptures that talk about you know, receiving criticism. Receiving feedback. - Rebuking. - Receiving wisdom. Receiving counsel. Being teachable. That's so important because I think the bible calls you a fool if you're in love with your own opinion. God will give you the idea right away but there's obviously practical steps to get there. If you think this is the only way. I don't know if you're familiar with the show, Shark Tank. - [Aaron] Oh we love that show. - [Sean] Go on there and then they receive... I would say they don't receive it but they're told feedback and they just don't grasp it or they don't want to grasp it and a lot of the advice they give is amazing and obviously they've been there so sometimes you have to listen to those people. - [Katie] Yeah, and although we didn't have every step of the plan, we did have a business plan written out of where we had hoped it to take Dashing Dish in the next five years and what not. So we did go through and we did that practical step as well which I believe is wisdom. It's just having a plan. And then it won't always look the way of course that we plan it but it is smart to have a game plan and know how you're gonna pay for things and know how you're gonna, you know, still eat and put food on the table. - Yeah, totally. - Yeah. One more question on just this wisdom and saying yes to God. So you started Dashing Dish and Sean you were doing designs for it and Katie was writing the content and the videos and... Would you have kept doing it even if you weren't able to do it full time? Would you have kept being a nurse and Sean kept doing design work on the side and then done this at a different level- - [Jennifer] Or pace. - [Aaron] Or a different pace if that was what God had for you. Would you have kept doing it? - [Katie] If that's what God had for me, absolutely. And I believe that I would've had full and complete peace to do that. And that's really what was leading me was I had no peace. I'm talking none staying at my nursing job. I actually felt like I went from loving it and I mean it was my dream job. I was a labor and delivery nurse and that was what I dreamed of for so long and yet I felt all this sudden, almost felt like I was trapped in jail and I told John, "I feel like "I can't run out of there fast enough." Of course I did the practical thing and I gave them a notice and I did things right. But I felt in my heart like I just needed to run because I felt like this is not where God has me any longer. And I also felt this extreme pull on my heart to minister to these women that I was being connected with. And I just felt this overwhelming pull to say it's either gonna be this or this. And I knew that I didn't have time or resources or the grace to do both and so I knew that I knew that I had to make that decision of one way or another. However, like you mentioned, if God has given me the grace to do both, without a doubt, I believe that he would've given me peace and the ability to do both and so I don't think anybody should ever say I feel like God is calling me to do this and then just say, "Oh well that means I can't do this then." You have to know for you what the best plan is and what his plan is I should say because I actually do know a ton of women who are doing something similar to what I'm doing where they're creating recipes and they have a website but they're still working a full time job. In fact, I know a few of them that are nurses. And I think what an amazing thing that God has given them the grace to do all of that. But like I said, I just knew for us that that was where God is calling. - [Jennifer] So being able to work together on this for the last 10 years, how has it strengthen your marriage? What have you guys experienced or noticed from working together? - [Sean] I would say it's been obviously really amazing being able to work with my wife every single day. Does it have its challenges? For sure. Like there are certain things that we know that we just can't work as well maybe together on? I think that's probably the horrible way to put it. I think the best example is when we do video work or photo work, we both have two totally entirely different visions or styles or ways of working if you will. I take one shot of food and I'm like, "That's perfect." She sees something completely different. - [Katie] He's looking at the composition of the photo and I'm looking at the food. And I'm like "No, the food looks terrible." And he's like, "The composition is beautiful." And I'm like, "No one's looking at the composition but you." - [Sean] So we do definitely butt heads sometimes in that area and you know, that's just... Being creative and being my own boss kind of thing, obviously Kate is her own boss as well but you know, I think I'm not used to having someone else's vision all the time for something different so I have to take constructive feedback. - [Katie] It's definitely helped us both expand our communication. - Oh yeah. - Outed out. We have had to put up with like different just guidelines on how we approach each other and how we discuss things. Instead of just shooting things out and saying comments of that looks terrible or just putting things out there. Instead we say okay-- - [Sean] Well that doesn't work. - [Katie] Instead we'll say, "All right, you know what. "You take over here. "Let's talk about this later." And then we come back and we have a sit down conversation. Okay, I don't think this was a really a great plan for doing it this way. Instead, there have been certain things that we have literally said we're gonna hire somebody else in instead of working together or maybe you can do that yourself and then I'll do this myself so I've completely taken over pictures for example. I do them myself. And we used to do it together of the food. And then what I do is a great compromise or meet in the middle is I take the pictures. I'll take a hundred pictures of a recipe. I'll come to Sean after I'm done and I'll say, "You choose your favorite." So he still has a say in it but he's not standing over me and I'm not standing over him and so that's kinda how we've learned to work together. So sometimes it's not always easy and it's not always perfect and clean and seamless and I think sometimes people get that picture of oh, you're husband and wife team. It must be so... You guys must work together perfectly. And I'm like, "No. "We definitely had some rough edges "that we've had to smooth out." But on the same note, like I said, it really does help us to grow in so many ways. We have become such better listeners. We've had so much better like I said communication. And we have to. If we don't communicate effectively, we will not get anything done and we only have a short window I'm sure like you. Anyone with children really. You have short windows to work and so we don't have time to sit and go back and forth so we've learned to really just delegate, communicate, and also to meet in the middle where we can. - [Jennifer] Yeah, totally. Lots of practice. - Yeah. - Yeah. - [Jennifer] Practicing good communication. - [Aaron] Those that are listening and thinking like how can we do a ministry together. It starts now. Just in your marriage. Learning to communicate well. Learning to be a team well. In your parenting, in your work schedules, in how your home's organized. And then also how you minister your neighbors and your family and your church, you know, body. And so those things are important to learn now and ask God to teach us. To prepare us for what He has for us. I have one last, two last questions for you. The first one's this. So in this chapter, we talked about ordinary people doing impactful things for God. Do you know any ordinary couples that have impacted your marriage in an extraordinary way? How did it direct your hearts toward God. - Yeah. - Would love to hear that. - [Katie] Yeah, for sure. We have a few. There have been pastors over the years. Pastors and their wives that have poured in to us. We spend to a lot of marriage conferences. The husband and wife will both speak and really just poured wisdom into us over the years. And you know, that is really impacted our marriage. We've learned a lot from doing different marriage conferences and also you guys. Your book. Your website. You guys are just so full of wisdom that God has given you specifically in the area of marriage and so... We've benefited from your resources for sure and we also point people back to Unveiled Wife. - Oh, thank you. - We just... We're so blessed by what you guys are doing and we think it's so so crucial that if you are married that you are constantly, you know, filling your relationship with wisdom that comes from sound Amen. - [Katie] Because you know, the enemy is definitely attacking marriages and that's no surprise. But we, in order to stay on guard, we have to constantly filling our marriages with truth. That being said, we also have a few different couples in our lives. One being my older sister and brother-in-law who are so blessed by the Lord but they don't just live just blessed. They have poured out God's generosity in so many lives and one of which in so many lives and one of which is they have opened countless orphanages in India. They actually went on a missions trip there years ago and they found that there were children. Our children's age. Young kids. Walking the streets and they... My brother-in-law, Phil, said to the leader, "What are those kids doing over there? "Where's their home? "Or is there an orphanage? "Or anywhere for them to stay?" And they said no. There's nowhere. There's no orphanage, nothing. So they actually built and opened multiple orphanages where children can not only be you know, sheltered but also fed and taught the Word of God. So that's just one small example of how they have sown generosity. And so they encourage us so much to really look for ways that we can use not just our finances, but our time, our talents, our resources that God has given us. - [Aaron] Love that. - [Jennifer] To pour back out. Because you know, this isn't about us. And it's not all for us. God has given us gifts and just like you were saying Aaron. It may look to some, oh I don't have a platform. What gifts do I have? No, every single person has gift. If you're an encourager and you find that you love to encourage people, that's a gift that God has given you. Not everyone can do that. So you know, call someone. Write a letter and encourage them. You don't know how it could literally change a whole life. Whatever gift God has given you, seek it out and seek to sharpen it and to really hone in on that and pour back out into others using that gift. Also our time. It's a precious resource and we all have the same amount of time in a day yet it seems like it's getting thinner and thinner in our culture today. So really giving of our time is an offering to God. Also finances. Even if it's just in a small way. Really seek the Lord in ways that you can bless people in your community with what He's given you. So Sara and Phil are definitely a huge encouraging just resourcing and couple watching them how they are so generous with God, what God has given them. - [Aaron] That's an awesome testimony. - [Jennifer] Yeah, before Aaron ask the last question, I wanna challenge our listeners to consider the people in their lives who are ordinary people doing extraordinary things the way that those people have impacted their marriage. If you even wanna share with them how they've impacted your marriage, I really feel like it would bless them so. - That'd be awesome. - That's a little. Little side challenge for you listening. - [Aaron] So last question. In your own words, what is a marriage after God? - [Sean] Hmm. Well I think that the best way to demonstrate that is to you know, be a reflection of Christ to everyone around you. of Christ to everyone around you. I think we tried to-- - [Aaron] Amen. - [Sean] Show it to the world through social media but it's the people that are in your day to day to lives that see you know, your forgiveness, your humility or you know, encouragement. Just every single thing that you can do with your wife that would exalt God in some way is a marriage after God. I feel like, you know, me taking the time to speak Katie's love languages even though... I was gonna say this earlier. I didn't get a chance but our love language are completely flip flopped and-- - [Katie] Opposite. - [Jennifer] And if you don't know what love languages are, definitely check them out. It's a great little quiz to take. To find out how to speak love to yourselves. - [Sean] But I think just dreaming and vision. You know, doing vision planning and things for the future and really seeking each other's hearts and obviously chasing after God together is I mean that's my definition of marriage after God. - [Katie] Years ago in Hawaii, we went on a trip before we had Maddy. We wrote out a marriage, a vision statement for our marriage and the very first sentence is to reflect Christ to the world around us through and then we go through different ways to do that forgiveness, prayer, and just different things. - Honesty. - Honesty. That we specifically him pointed of ways that we wanted to reflect Christ and we don't do it perfectly. In fact, we work out a few days a week at a gym. It's like a group class. I said something so Sean. We're just having a personal conversation and then I must have hurt his feelings or disrespected him in some way that he thought. And I didn't even know I did. He ended up leaving our group 'cause we had a group of three people walking out, walking to a different group. And I thought, what just happened? And so we got in the car after. And I didn't say a word. And I said, "What happened there?" And he said, "You know, you made me feel terrible." And I said, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." I said, "But you probably shouldn't "have left our group of three. "Everyone knows that we're Christians and" I said, "We need to reflect Christ." They all know that we're believers. And that's what really matters. And he said, "You're right." And so, you know, it doesn't mean we're perfect. It doesn't mean that we never fight or we never do things that are silly or outside of God's will but at the end of the day what really matter is that the world around us sees Christ in our day to day lives. And that even Goes for our children. So I think that that's really the most important thing to us. - [Jennifer] Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much and amen. That was, - Yeah. - an awesome wrap up to this interview. Thank you guys so much for sharing your wisdom and your story with us and just being willing to be transparent and encouraging. And you guys are doing some awesome work. Just again, let everyone know where they can find you guys. - [Katie] Yeah, you can head over to DashingDish.com. We also have an app in addition to our website so you can check that out in the App Store. - [Jennifer] Awesome and I just wanna encourage everyone to go check them out. And to follow along. They have some awesome resources like you mentioned earlier. Recipes and you have a whole workout system. You have all kinds of things that would benefit a couple. So go check them out and also, we also wrap up every episode with a prayer so we just would like to encourage everyone to join us. But thank you again, you guys, for coming on here today and sharing all this. - You guys have been a huge blessing. - Thank you. - Thank you for having us. - [Katie] Yeah, we feel the same about you and we were truly honored to be a part of your podcast today. Thank you so much for having us. - Thank you guys. - Awesome, okay. Go ahead and pray Aaron. - [Aaron] Dear Lord. Thank you for using ordinary people to do such extraordinary things in this world. It is only by your power that we are able to say yes with courage and do all that you ask us to do. We pray we would be quick to say yes to you and trust you to help us. No matter what you invite us to do, may we never forget or neglect to do the things you have already commanded us to do in your Word. Help us to be faithful and obedient people. We pray our marriages would be used to allow you to make an impact in this world and to draw people's hearts closer to yours. We pray our marriages would be a gift to you blessing your name. We pray our marriages would reflect your amazing love. We pray for an extraordinary marriage and we ask you to use us in extraordinary ways for your namesake. May you be glorified through us. In Jesus' name, amen. - [Jennifer] Amen. - Amen. - Amen. - [Aaron] All right guys, thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode. We have how many, three more? Two more episodes coming up. This is chapter 14. We have two more coming up. So stay tuned. And we're almost done with this. And if you have not yet done it, go pick up a copy of Marriage After God. Shop.MarriageAfterGod.com and that's where you'll get it. Thank you so much. See you next week. - [Man] Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Join the Marriage After God movement and order a copy of our new book today. https://marriageaftergod.com Quote From the book: “...what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough.” Prayer *Dear Lord, We thank You for the way you created us and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so that we can see all of the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriage to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do! In Jesus’ name, amen!* READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage after God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're in part 11 of the Marriage after God series, and we're going to be talking with Katie and Elisha Voetberg about taking inventory. Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through vlogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage after God. So today's guests are Elisha and Katie Voetberg from the podcast Now That We're Family. [Aaron] So before we get to the interview with Katie and Elisha Voetberg, we would love to ask anyone that's listening if they have not already to leave a review for us. That helps other people find the podcast. It helps the rankings in iTunes. So if you have a moment, leave us a star rating, leave us a text review. We'd love to see that. [Jennifer] We also wanna invite you guys to check out our new book Marriage after God, which is available at our store. So just go to shop.marriageaftergod.com to check that out and get your copy today. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the whole point of this series, is we're promoting our book coming out on June fourth, and we would love for you to get a copy of it. But following in the series, we're almost done with it, and we're excited to have you. Okay, Katie, Elisha, friends of ours. [Jennifer] Thank you for being here. [Elisha] No, thank you! [Katie] We're so stoked to be here today. [Aaron] We're here in our garage. Usually we record in our office, so there might be a little bit more echo, but this fits all of us. It's this fun little setup we got, I love it. [Jennifer] And it's in person. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So I feel like it's just fun all around. [Aaron] So thanks for joining us, and no one is probably gonna know you, so why don't you guys tell everyone who you are, how long you've been married, kids, stuff like that. [Elisha] Right on, yeah. So my name is Elisha Peter Voetberg, and this is my lovely wife Kathryn Joy Voetberg, and we've been married for three years now, and we're pregnant with our third child. [Jennifer] Woohoo! [Elisha] So we've got a two-year-old. Yeah, we're really pumped. We've got our two-year-old, Leon Tucker, and our daughter Lucy's just about a year, and then we've got our third baby on the way. And we love being a part of fellowship with you guys, doing fellowship. [Aaron] Oh, I forgot to mention we go to church with them. [Elisha] Yeah, that's right. That's a huge highlight for us. And we're just really excited about life with each other and seeing what God can do through the family unit and through marriage. [Aaron] Cool, and that's why you guys started your podcast, was you loved what God was doing in your marriage and in your family, and we'll get into some more of your guys' background in a little bit. But yeah, if you haven't checked out their podcast, it's Now That We Are Family, and you can just search for that on iTunes or anywhere you can get podcasts, actually, so. [Jennifer] Awesome, okay, moving right along. [Aaron] This is our fun little section. We love this part. [Jennifer] Yeah, we wanted to invite you guys to join us for the icebreaker question, which is, what is one of your funniest marriage moments? [Elisha] Funniest, Katie? [Aaron] Katie has one, and she's prepared. [Katie] I am prepared. No, well, I would have to say one of our funniest marriage moments is probably the most ironic marriage moment, 'cause it was actually a fight. [Elisha] That's true. [Katie] But people think it's funny. [Elisha] It's funny now, right? [Katie] Yeah, exactly. [Aaron] Not in the moment, but it is absolutely funny now for everyone else. [Katie] Exactly, so it happened at our honeymoon, and I think it was the first wake-up call Elisha had to who he had married. [Aaron] Oh, no. [Elisha] Yeah, so yeah, I guess I'll tell the story. Katie and I, you're gonna hear more about our families, but we were both brought up in big families, and Katie's family was extremely strict when it came to sugar intake. And my family definitely was health-conscientious, but certainly not as strict regarding sugar as Katie's family was. [Katie] Nowhere close. [Elisha] Nowhere close. [Aaron] Yeah. And I think it was day four of our honeymoon, and I viewed our honeymoon as being a time that was celebratory, and you can kinda splurge. [Aaron] Yeah, which means it doesn't matter what you eat. [Elisha] It doesn't matter what you eat. [Aaron] You can have as much as you want. [Elisha] Exactly, that's how I was viewing it. And so, it was the evening of our fourth night, I think, the fourth day in our honeymoon, and we decided to get a little treat for a movie that we were gonna watch. And so, I got a pack of Skittles, just like the normal size. It wasn't the super size, it wasn't the party size. It was just the normal serving size of Skittles. And Katie didn't want anything, and that really blew my mind. I was like, you're not gonna get a treat? She goes, no. She was like, I'll have some of yours, which is classic, right? [Jennifer] Yeah, you're like, no you're not. [Elisha] Classic, yeah, exactly. And so, we started watching the movie, and I had a few Skittles, and then Katie took three Skittles and she told me that that was gonna be enough for her. [Katie] No, I had, okay, yeah. Okay, I guess, but this is a classic like, let me help you tell the story, honey. But I ended up eating 11 Skittles. [Aaron] She remembers the exact number. [Katie] Which was splurging for me. And Elisha was like, you're counting your Skittles? But then I took the Skittles away from him. [Elisha] Yeah, after I had eaten maybe 20 or 25 Skittles. [Katie] That's a lot of Skittles. [Elisha] Yeah. [Katie] Up until this point, I'd maybe had like one. Anyways, like, my family, I'm one of 11 kids, and we would split a bag of Skittles and make it last for two or three days. [Aaron] Wow, that's incredible, actually. [Katie] Anyways, yeah, so it led to kind of a crazy fight, and since then, I realize that I am the one that most people don't agree with on this story. [Aaron] Yeah, Skittles are usually a single-event, single-instance candy. [Elisha] Yeah, that's how I viewed it, exactly. She wanted to save it. [Aaron] It's one serving, isn't it, like, the whole bag? [Elisha] Exactly, I thought it was one serving too. [Katie] I wouldn't believe it, and we had to read the back. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Aaron] That is funny now, for sure. [Elisha] It's funny now. Well, you know what's funny is that we're laughing about it, but she was dead serious at the moment. She grabbed the bag from me. [Katie] I hid 'em. [Elisha] Yeah, and I thought she was being playful and kind of flirtatious. I was like, oh, come on, give me the Skittles back. She's like, no, we'll finish 'em later, like we can have 'em tomorrow or the next day. I was like, are you kidding me? I want them now. [Aaron] I wonder how many people are gonna really relate to this. They're like, this is exactly how we are with Skittles. [Jennifer] That's so awesome. [Aaron] We both would get our own bags of Skittles. [Jennifer] For sure. [Aaron] And our own bag of, what else would we get? [Jennifer] And remind each other that we're not sharing. [Aaron] Please don't have any of mine. Get your own bag if you want some. [Elisha] I don't think Katie can view you the same way anymore, now that she knows that. [Jennifer] That's okay. Okay, so we're gonna, we always share a quote, and we're gonna share a quote from Marriage after God from chapter 11, Take Inventory. Aaron, do you wanna? [Aaron] Yeah, so what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough. It's a smaller part of a bigger quote in a bigger context, but the idea is that oftentimes, we might see things that we have in our life, abilities, skills, and they're not good enough for God or adequate for what God wants to do in our life or through our life. And so we think we need something else. Oh, I don't have what it takes, that kind of mentality, but it's exactly what God's already given us, and he requires and desires us to invest it as we have it. It doesn't mean that we don't get better at things, but that's kind of the context of this, and we're gonna talk about this idea of taking inventory and we're gonna ask the questions to you guys, 'cause you guys haven't read the book yet, which is totally fine. [Elisha] Right. [Aaron] Because I think we all can learn and start to understand in our life that God's given us things, and he desires us to invest them, and not because we're trying to commend ourselves to God, but he wants us to invest them for his sake, for our sake, and it's because we love him that we invest them. So that's the quote, and then we can get into the topic and some questions for you guys. [Elisha] Cool. [Aaron] Are you guys excited about the questions? [Elisha] I am excited. [Aaron] Okay. [Jennifer] Okay, you guys are a young family figuring out what God has for you as a couple. How has that journey been so far? So you can describe things like how you feel about it, highs and lows, or maybe a significant story that stands out to you? [Katie] Yeah, so I think there have been a lot of highs and lows in our three years of marriage, and I think our first month of marriage was kind of indicative to that. Elisha was making I think $1800 at the time working at a restaurant, and our rent was 1150. So I don't even know how we quite managed to make it all work that month. We were doing a ton of odd jobs, and we started three different businesses our first month of marriage, and got pregnant. [Aaron] A little bit of things. [Katie] Yeah, like all of those moving parts I think really affected the last few years, but I think it's been so cool to see how God has worked to make all those things work together, even though there was such a random smattering of things over the years. And I think we've had so much fun, even though we didn't always see the plan, and I think what's cool now is that we trust the process so much more, and we trust each other so much more. We trust God. There were so many things through starting those businesses. Like, well, one of 'em provides for us now. It's a network marketing company, and I think it really has not only provided for us now, but it allows us to pursue our passions, and it helped give us thicker skin to handle rejection and stuff like that. So there were a lot of ups and downs just in that, you know, when you start one business. Elisha was getting his real estate license, so that was new for us, being employed, and then being unemployed it feels like when you don't have a deal. But I just think it's really cool that now, when we're uncertain of today or what tomorrow holds, 'cause I feel like as entrepreneurs, that is life. We just trust each other so much more, and we're like, you know God's gonna work these things together, and we see how he's using those things we started in our first few months of marriage now. [Jennifer] I think that's so encouraging, what you're sharing, because I think everybody has that tendency to wanna know what the next hundred steps are, like, see that bigger picture right away. But I think what you're saying is so encouraging to hear, to remind ourselves we have to just be able to trust God and trust our spouse with just that next step. [Elisha] Mmhmm. [Aaron] Yeah, Elisha, how do you, so, you guys have started businesses, making barely ends meet, which all of us have been there. Some people that are listening right now are probably right there right now. And you're just trying to figure out life. You guys have been married for three years, you have kids. You're just trying to figure out a lot of things, which is totally good, totally normal. But has there been times over the last few years that you feel like you're not moving in any direction, or how could God possibly use all these random difficulties and where we're at in our life? [Elisha] Absolutely. I know there's been numerous times where I've had those exact thoughts probably verbatim in my brain, and even looking back in retrospect over three years, and even though that's not a lot of time to some people, it's enough time for us to really realize that God does work all things together for good. There are some things that I know he's gonna continue to work out over the next 10 and 20 and 30 years of our life. But when you live, early on, month to month when it comes to your paycheck, and then you get pregnant in the middle of that, and then you get pregnant with your second child when you're kind of in the same position, it really makes you realize that the Lord does provide, and I think that that has helped me really embrace the season for what it is. I know that so often, everybody wants to arrive, right? You wanna be there, whatever there is. [Aaron] Yeah, whatever that there is. [Elisha] Whatever that is. [Aaron] How do we get there faster? [Elisha] Exactly. It might be a level of your income. It might be the size of your home or the quality of your vehicles that you're driving, but looking back over these last three years and seeing what the Lord's done, it's made us enjoy the journey and enjoy the process and trust the Lord in that. And when I look at those times where I was questioning what the heck I was doing with my life and what the Lord was gonna use with these things that I was doing, I look back, and so far, he's been so faithful to, in spite of me, a lot of times, use them for his purpose and for his glory. [Aaron] Yeah, so, I love that, and you know, this topic we're talking about, take inventory, is off chapter 11 of our book, and the idea of the chapter, we're not gonna go into too much of it, is that we can look at our lives and realize that there are, not certain things, that everything in our life, the inventory of our life, can be evaluated and looked at and say, okay, Lord, how are you using that season of life, that idea, that business that we wanted to start or that passion we have or that pain we felt? And so, what you're kinda saying is you've been looking back and saying, okay, I didn't know what I was doing then, but God's using that now. [Elisha] Yes. [Aaron] So when you look back over the last few years, and we're gonna get into your family in the next question, you look back over your life, taking this idea of inventory, can you guys pinpoint, be like, oh, wow, these things in our life, this way we were raised, certain giftings we have, talents, that's our inventory, that's what's on the shelf for us. Can you name a few of those things, and then we're gonna go into family next. [Elisha] Sure, yeah. We'll stick with our marriage so far, 'cause we haven't gotten into Katie and I's growing up experience, but I look at the businesses that we started in that first month, or even the job that I was doing. I was a bartender at the time, and obviously, you're dealing with people. You're dealing with all sorts of people as a bartender, and it's so easy for me to look at that season of life as being, man, I was just there to get tips and to go home and to pay rent. [Aaron] Right, meaningless waste of time, yeah. [Elisha] Exactly. [Aaron] However you feel about it. [Elisha] Yeah, exactly. And of course, I was interacting with eternal beings every day, whether that was my coworkers or my boss and my managers, and then, of course, the patrons that were coming and consuming alcohol, or buying food at the restaurant. And so I look back and I think, man, the Lord was preparing me just to have empathy and sympathy for all types of people. And then I think of the businesses that we started in that first month, and it was funny, 'cause we really acquired a lot of skillsets because we were kind of hacks when it came to, one of those businesses was an online music academy because I'm a musician, and I wanted to be able to offer my music lessons in an online format, and neither Katie or I were video people or really recording-type people. [Aaron] Yeah, but you guys did a good job. I remember you guys, it's still up, right? [Elisha] It is still up. [Katie] It is still up, yeah. [Elisha] It's effective, and people still use it. But we just figured it out. We just decided to dive in and go for it, and that was good for me to get over my pride and to let go of that perfectionism mindset that so often keeps us from taking any action. [Katie] And I think too it was good for us because, like, I remember when we first got married and you were a little more focused on your image then, and I was kind of like, I don't know, I was kind of a hack. I think I made you a little nervous, the way I threw around my image. [Elisha] Let's just do it, let's just do it. [Katie] Yeah, I was like, let's just do it, put it up. And I remember the first time I showed you a video that I was gonna post on Facebook. It was just a little parody I made, and Elisha's like, you cannot post that. Like, there is no way. [Elisha] That's funny. [Aaron] You're like, it's going up. [Katie] Yeah. Well, through Voetberg Music Academy, we ended up doing a lot of those little commercials or little parody videos together, and I think that that really, I mean, we use that now. [Elisha] Yep, absolutely. [Katie] And it just really helped us swallow our pride I think and just go for things. [Jennifer] Explain that a little bit more when you say we use that now. [Katie] Well, we use that now on YouTube is probably one of the biggest ways that we use that in just family vlogging now that we're a family on YouTube as well. And I think that that is kind of what spawned the podcast, because if we hadn't gotten enough confidence to just document our lives, I don't think we would have ever taken that next step to podcasting. [Aaron] That's good. So right now, what you're currently doing for the Lord, for your family, you can reach back into the inventory of those experiences and the inventory of those challenges, the trials and errors, and use that now and feel more confident in moving forward and, like you said, you wouldn't have been able to do it now if you didn't try it then or have those experiences. That's awesome. [Jennifer] That is so cool. Okay, so we touched on that we were gonna get into your families a little bit. Katie, you mentioned that you're from a big family, so how do you guys see the unique ways that you were raised or maybe family type being used for what God has you doing today? [Elisha] Yeah, so I was one of 10 children, all from the same mommy and daddy, and my parents are still married. They stayed married throughout our entire childhood, and they're in a great marriage. [Aaron] Which is rare these days. [Elisha] Yeah, and Katie is the oldest of 11 children, where it's same mommy and daddy for all the kiddos, and they're in a vibrant marriage right now. And so we were both homeschooled and brought up just with very Bible-centered homes. We read the Bible every single day as a family at the breakfast table, and sometimes at the dinner table, and I think that when I look at my history, not only was it an extremely enjoyable and relationship-rich time that I loved with my siblings and with my parents, and I know Katie feels the same way. [Katie] Yes. [Elisha] About her childhood, where we both just look back at them with really fond memories. I see that because my parents and Katie's parents, but I'll speak for myself right now, Because my parents become comfortable being unconventional and being counter-cultural, I grew up with this mindset that there are so many blessings in being different than the world. [Aaron] I like that. [Elisha] And I think my parents were the ones that were convicted by the Lord, and obviously, I was just along for the ride as a child and I was following in their leading, but they really exemplified to me that yes, a lot of times, initially, making those decisions to have many children or for the mom to stay home and be with the children and homeschool them or to take 'em out of the public and homeschool them, they can be challenging up front, and they can be challenging even for an extended amount of time. But the payoff is so worth it. So I think that growing up with a big family, in a big family and with parents that really trusted the Lord with their finances, with how many children they're going to have, it made me realize that I've adopted a lot of these mindsets not even knowing it. And so when I hear people that are my age say, well, we couldn't afford to have children now, I just think to myself, well, yeah you could. Where's that coming from? And I think that statements like that are so commonly accepted in our culture and in the world and they're never challenged, and I just don't believe that. I believe that you could probably find a way to afford to have children. I think that you can find a way to afford for the mother to stay home and not go to work and to even homeschool her children. And I think you can find a way to have a romantic and fun and flirtatious marriage, even while you have a bunch of kids, because I saw it exemplified to me. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the magic right there. [Elisha] Yeah, and so I'm not saying that I know how to do it; I just believe it can be done, and I think that Katie feels similarly. [Katie] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes, there is this mindset of, we have to do things how everyone else does them, and I think the way we grew up, like, I had some of the best years of my life living in a tent and a trailer, you know? Like, we did that for two years so my parents could save up a down payment for their house, and they had six kids at the time, but those are some of the best memories of my childhood. And I think sometimes, we have this misconceived perception that, oh, we need to earn this amount of money or we need to take our kids to Disneyland or we need to be able to provide these things for our kids, and I just don't have that perspective at all. Because of the way I was raised, I just have incredible relationships with my parents, and I have such amazing memories of growing up in unique situations. I guess my experience helps dispel some of those societal norms. [Aaron] Yeah. So you, you have a lot of resources at your fingertips from the way you were raised, the versatility, the flexibility to make decisions that might be, hey, if we slow down here, we can speed up over here, or if we lessen what we're spending money on over here, we can have money to do something over here. You have those things at your fingertips to use now because of how, and you didn't even get to choose it. [Elisha and Katie] Exactly. [Aaron] Right? 'Cause that's kind of some of the things that we like to point out and we want our listeners to know, fortunately your family stories are powerful and just relationally rich, and then some people listening are gonna be like, well, I didn't have a family like that. My family wasn't that great. I didn't have strong Christian parents. But our point in this idea of taking inventory is that your story and your family doesn't give you something extra. It's what God has given you. And my family story's different, similar in some ways, but different. Jennifer's family story's different. And we we don't have your story to use in what God has for us to do ministry in, right? [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] We use our story, the inventory that we have that God's given us. And so, that's kind of what's awesome about taking inventory of our lives, is our listeners can take inventory and be like, and I wanna encourage them that are listening not to throw out their story 'cause it's not your story. [Elisha] That's right, absolutely. [Aaron] Because they do have inventory, and God wants us to look at what we have and what he's given us and say, here you go, Lord. [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] So here's my family and how I was raised, the good things and the bad things that happened to me as a child that I had no choice in, and how do you want me to use this for you, Lord? How do you want me to invest this? How do you wanna redeem this in my life? How do you wanna turn it into something for you, not for me, not for my sake. And so, maybe that gives someone listening right now peace and actually some courage in their own inventory. [Jennifer] Yeah, and something I wanna highlight is just that how cool that God would have you guys here on the show and be able to share your story, 'cause I think it will be an encouragement to someone. 'Cause like you said, there's other ways of living that have been expressed and accepted in our culture, and your story's different, and the fact that you're here and you're sharing and whoever's listening could be encouraged by this, I love that. [Aaron] Yeah, that story by itself right now, whether it has any other implications in your life, could potentially minister to someone today, which is amazing, right? [Katie] Incredible. [Aaron] And that's just one small way that God uses what we are, what we have that he's given to us, is just by saying yes to him, which is a theme that we mention throughout our whole book, is saying yes to God. [Jennifer] Okay, so when we say yes to God, sometimes insecurities flare up, fears, things like that. So what are some of your biggest insecurities when it comes to using your gifts and talents for God? [Elisha] You know, it's funny, 'cause I think that, even piggybacking on talking about our family, our unique story and our unique experiences can often be debilitating to us, and we can oftentimes find ourselves experiencing paralysis by analysis because we feel like we're from such a unique perspective, we can't relate with people. How are we gonna be able to connect and really encourage and exhort, whether that's fellow believers or minister to people that are not saved, and oftentimes, I mean, you can look at that from two ways. One, I feel extremely strong in my faith because of what my parents have done before me, but it also makes me realize it's not about me. It's not about Katie. It's about Jesus Christ. And I think of, is it II Peter chapter one, I think it's verses three and four that whereby are given unto you all things. [Aaron] That pertain to life and godliness, yeah. [Elisha] That pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who's called you to glory and virtue. And that's not the prerequisite. The prerequisite for that is not coming from a Christian family. The prerequisite for that's not coming from the fourth generation or fifth generation of Bible-believing Christians; it's being in Christ. [Aaron] It's being in Christ. [Katie] That's good. [Elisha] It's being a new creation in Christ. But the cool thing about that is that legacy is a real thing, and you have the ability in Christ to start a new legacy. We were just at my grandfather's funeral a week and a half ago, and it was really powerful to be there with his six children and then 42 grandchildren. [Aaron] Wow, that's incredible. [Elisha] And this is my mother's father, and to hear his story of being orphaned at 12 years old, heavily abused, on the street starving, an alcoholic father who ended up being a felon, never knowing his mother and never knowing the love of Christ in his home and making a decision to follow the Lord at 16 years of age, and the legacy that's come from that. [Katie] It's incredible, and we get to benefit from that. [Jennifer] That's powerful, wow. [Elisha] Absolutely, yeah, really is powerful. [Aaron] Wow, love that. [Elisha] And so, to get back to your question, insecurities, I think it's so easy to feel inadequate, 'cause of course, apart from Christ, we are inadequate, but that's not where we're at anymore. So you need to accept the reality that hey, we're in Christ, we are a new creation in Christ, and we do have all things pertaining to life and godliness, and therefore, we are equipped. And so I think our youth can play a factor in that, not feeling old enough. [Katie] I definitely think that plays in too. You feel like, well, I don't have enough experience, you know, life experience. [Aaron] I know, you're not allowed to have a podcast about family yet until you've had a family for a super long time, right? [Katie] Exactly, exactly. [Elisha] Exactly, that's right. [Katie] So I think we do wanna be thoughtful in that and share what we're experiencing more and what we're learning in the moment versus teaching, 'cause obviously, our oldest is two, you know what I'm saying? Elisha and I have been married for three years. [Aaron] Right, there's things you actually don't know, and that's fine. [Katie] Yes. So I think we want to be wise and cautious in that, but that doesn't mean that we can't encourage someone who's in a similar situation. [Elisha] Yeah, and I think that even though there's so much that we have yet to learn and that we need to learn as life goes on, I know that Katie and I are really excited about family, and we're excited about growth, and I think that regardless of what stage of life you're in, if you're in Christ Jesus, you can be excited about the future. [Aaron] Ooh, I like that. [Elisha] I know that's where we're at right now. [Aaron] So that sounds very similar to ours. When we launched Unveiled Wife and then Husband Revolution, how long were we married? Five years? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And people even asked us, how long have you been married, like, older people, which rightfully so asking us, but I always tell people, we're not marriage experts. We've never proclaimed to be marriage experts. That would have been wrong of us to do. We're marriage storytellers. [Jennifer] Yeah, storytellers. We're sharing our experience. [Aaron] How are we failing, what's God teaching us, and again, going back to our book, one of the themes is like what you said, it's not us. It's not my experiences that is changing anyone's hearts or that has any value, other than Christ using it. And it's his story. It's his vocation, it's his ministry, not ours. It's his message, not ours. And so, as long as we're going back to the very thing that's changing us and transforming us, like, the gospel's the power of God unto salvation, right? The gospel and Christ in us through the Holy Spirit, that's what we're doing in this world. So we've had the same exact inadequacies and fears almost every time we launch anything. Launching this podcast, we were like, we don't know how to do podcasts. So I hope that encourages people listening to realize, wow, if God's calling me out, and not if, he is calling me out and wants me to follow him and wants me to use my life and the inventory of my life for his glory, they should be encouraged to know that even if they feel doubt and fear, that it's not them anyway. It's Christ doing it. [Katie] Exactly. [Elisha] Amen. [Jennifer] I think it's important to note we have a real enemy who does not like us using the gift and things that God's given us to glorify God. [Aaron] No way, yeah. [Jennifer] And so there's gonna be opposition to that, and I think our flesh is sensitive to that. So sometimes it does come in the form of insecurities or fears and things that we're afraid of, but it's just temptation from the enemy to try and distract us. [Katie] That's a great perspective. [Aaron] Yeah, but I love that you guys use wisdom and thoughtfulness. I don't think we should test God and run into the middle of the street and say, save me! [Katie] Definitely not. [Aaron] We need to present, again, going back to the taking inventory, we don't just say like, oh, I'm gonna use this thing in my life this way. No, we say, okay, Lord, here's what I have. This is what you've given me, this abuse as a child, your grandpa story, or my godly upbringing, or this schooling I went to. Whatever it is, these gifts, these natural abilities that you've given me, here you go. What do you want? How do you wanna arrange this and turn it into a clay pot or a basketball hoop or whatever it is that he wants to mold it into. [Jennifer] It's in humility and submission to his will and his purposes, which leads me to the next question. I'd love for you guys to share on this. What's the purpose of all the gifts and things that he gives to you, or to us? What is the purpose? [Elisha] Yeah, I think big picture answer is it's for God's glory and for the furtherance of the gospel. [Aaron] Yeah, we talked about this on Sunday, didn't we? [Elisha] We did, that's right, a few days ago. And the way that plays out practically with each couple I think is obviously gonna look different, 'cause there are so many different skillsets and passions. And it's fun when you accept that big picture of, man, this is for God's purpose. It's for his glory. It's for the furtherance of his kingdom. Then it almost makes it like a fun game to figure out what your skillsets are and how you can be a part of the puzzle and the pie, realizing, wait, it's not about me. I don't have to get all the credit. [Aaron] Yes, yes. [Elisha] In fact, I shouldn't get all the credit. Like, how can I fit into the strategy that God has? And I think obviously, Katie and I are in the journey of figuring that out, and something that we both talk a lot about is being aware of the desires that are on our heart, and the Lord I think oftentimes places those on your heart, and then also being open to counsel. And you can speak to this, Katie, but I think that we've gone back and forth of caring too much about what people think of us, whether that's close friends and relatives, or even people that we don't know personally, but they have their opinion online of us and we'll let that influence the action we're taking. But then you can swing the pendulum and say, well, forget what people think. I'm just gonna do what I wanna do. And there's obviously, the Bible talks about there being safety in the counsel of many. And so I think finding this place where you say, man, the Lord's put something on my heart. I wanna have a community of counsel that I can go to and be humble before, knowing that they can totally see blind spots in my life, but then also realizing I don't wanna make decisions based off of the fear of man or what somebody might say to me. [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] So good, and I find so much encouragement in several things that you guys have already shared throughout this episode, things like have fun along the way, enjoy the journey, and I love that, and I just wanted to take note for everyone listening, and for everyone who's gonna read the book Marriage after God, because sometimes, we just tell it like it is and encourage them to do. But I want them to hear this. It is a journey to be enjoyed, and it is something to have fun with yourselves when you're figuring it out. And so I just wanted to make a note, I love that you said that. [Aaron] And the highlight in your story, just all the unique variables, we call it inventory, that God has equipped you guys with to do the unique thing that he's having you do, whatever that looks like. It could be a business. It could be just you working nine-to-five jobs, you just being a mom, but how you guys work together with your gifts and talents, we don't know, but you guys are trying things and chasing after what God wants for you and saying, okay, Lord, okay, that's not it? Okay, cool, and we'll take the experience from that. We're gonna use it for the thing that you do want us to do, and that it's this organic thing. 'Cause God knows the complete picture. [Elisha] That's right. [Katie] He does, yes. [Aaron] It says many plans are in the man's heart, but it's the Lord that directs the steps. So we have these plans, we have these ideas, and we say, if the Lord wills it, and then we take a step, and you say, okay, that's the right step. Oh, no, that's the wrong step. Let's go to this step, let's do this way, and we let him direct us. And what's awesome is along the way, whether you have reached that goal, whatever that thing is, like you said, we always have this picture of what it might be, and we actually don't even know what it might be. We just think, it's usually probably compared to someone else's thing. [Katie] Probably. [Elisha] That's usually what it is. [Aaron] But like even right now, just by you saying yes to him in all of these decisions, you're saying yes to him, and you begin to see him not only change you guys, make you guys more in love, stronger in your marriage, better parents, better brothers and sisters in Christ, but then also, you get used to grow the kingdom, just along the way. Whether you ever achieve that position or ministry or goal or whatever it looks like, it's happening along the way because you're saying yes to God, and I think that's amazing. [Elisha] Yep. [Aaron] So, do you feel like God is currently inviting you two to do anything specific, like, as you guys have been navigating with all these gifts and talents and resources? [Katie] Yeah, well, I think that it's, like we mentioned, it has been a journey. I think it's so cool to see how the Lord has had us work together in little ways right off the bat, because there is no way we'd be able to even do the projects we're working on now if we hadn't taken those little steps, and I think of with Voetberg Music Academy, where I started recording a live show and we started getting into video, but I was so insecure talking in front of a camera in front of Elisha. I wasn't insecure about the camera. [Aaron] Elisha, turn around please. [Katie] Yes! [Elisha] Exactly, she would tell me to leave. [Katie] He'd have to leave. I had a crush on Elisha since I was eight years old, and I tried my entire life to impress him. [Aaron] Oh, that's awesome. And now he's standing there in front of you. [Katie] So then after we got married, I was like, I can't do this, and he was so good at it, and he was so good at communicating that, I don't know, there was just no way we were going to ever be able to talk to a camera together. And I think it was so cool, because I started my own YouTube now that I'm a mother before we did anything online, and it was cool how that just built my confidence, and that was a little step. It was just a hobby and a fun thing, but I do think the Lord was using it to build my confidence for us to be able to start doing video together and starting the vlog, and then starting, and I think it also gave you confidence too. [Elisha] Yes. [Katie] In the flip side, to see me just putting my life out there and people being encouraged by it, and that gave you the urge I think to have us jump into that together. [Elisha] Absolutely. [Katie] Which again led to the podcast, and I do think even though we are young and we are really newly married and a new family, we do have a desire to encourage family and encourage biblical rules and encourage seeking out what God's word says about family in a culture that is so starkly opposed to just the biblical worldview. And so, I think that's our goal, and that might look different throughout the years. The mediums we use to communicate might look different, but I think for both of us, that's what God has placed on our heart, to just encourage young families in our stage of life and newly married couples. [Aaron] Yeah. So I just wanna encourage you guys, 'cause I know you both, we go to church together, we know most of your families. Whether you have direct experience with being parents of large families and have been doing for ages, or you have a two-year-old, right? [Elisha] Yeah, that's right. [Aaron] You have more experience in this than many people, because I grew up in a family of two. You grew up in a larger family, but not the way you guys did. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And whether or not you are directly experiencing it, which you are, just with a much smaller size right now, you were drawing from that inventory of how you were raised and the experience that no one has had, rarely, 10 children, 11 children, parents that stayed together that not just stayed together but love each other, 'cause that's a big thing. [Jennifer] Yeah, there's parents that stick it out. [Aaron] Lots of people, they stayed together, but it wasn't very joyful, right? [Elisha] Right, right. [Aaron] And so that's what's awesome, is whether or not you feel completely qualified, you're more qualified than me to talk about it, just by the experience you had, now, as long as we stay humble and we submit to the Lord and say we're gonna do it your way, 'cause it's his story. So I just wanted to encourage you guys that. I think that's awesome you're starting. I think we need more people, more believers. That's the whole purpose of this book, is to say yes to God and say, God, here's what you've given me. How do you wanna use it? [Elisha] Yes, amen. [Jennifer] Okay, guys, this is the last question, and it's in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Elisha] In our own words, what is a marriage after God? [Katie] Okay, you go first. [Elisha] This isn't fair, 'cause we haven't read the book yet, guys. [Aaron] This is exactly why we're asking. [Elisha] I see. You know, God invented marriage, so I really do think that he gets to choose what the purpose of marriage is, what marriage is, what the end goal is, and something that Katie and I have really been contemplating over the last few months is that when you are joined in holy matrimony, you don't then start to try to become one; he makes you one. And so therefore, you start to act like one. And I think that so often, and this carries over into our faith. We think that when you are made new in Christ, from the day you're saved, you're a son of God. [Aaron] Oh, I love that, yeah. [Elisha] You are free from sin. You're able to live as a son of God. That doesn't mean that you don't need to learn some things, but you're learning to act how he's made you to be. I think it's the same thing with marriage. Oftentimes, we think, man, we need to become one, when in reality, you are one. He says, when two are joined together, they should no longer be called two, but they should be called one. And I think that once we've started to realize that more and more, we've realized that when I make decisions that aren't to the unity of our marriage, it hurts Katie, and similarly, if it's a negative decision, and if Katie makes a negative decision, it hurts me, whether you want it to or not. And I think that once we've started to have our minds transformed, you know, our minds are being transformed because we're renewing them and starting to believe what God says about who we are as Christians and then who we are as a married couple, we start to walk that out, we start to be one. And so once again, that's just one area that God has spoken to about marriage, saying hey, you are one. There's no more two, there's no more Elisha and Katie. You are one. I don't care how you feel. I don't care how she thinks or you think, you are one. So you better start learning how to act like it. Otherwise, it's gonna be a pretty miserable journey. [Aaron] Ooh, I love that. That's awesome, yeah. So a marriage after God is one that recognizes they are one. [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] Like, not becoming one, they are one. And so, I love that, because you're right. We're not becoming something. We are it the moment we said yes. [Jennifer] Let's live it out. [Aaron] Yeah, and so, either we're living it out or we're fighting against it. [Elisha] Yes. [Aaron] So that's awesome, amen. So, where can people find you at? What are some websites? [Jennifer] 'Cause we know people got encouraged today. They got inspired. They wanna know more about you. [Elisha] Sure, yeah, well, you already mentioned our podcast. It's Now That We're A Family, and then we've got our YouTube channel, which is also called nowthatwereafamily. [Katie] Yep. [Elisha] And Katie's on Instagram at @nowthatimamother. [Jennifer] And she's super active there. She does live videos and interviews people. [Aaron] And her photos are awesome. [Katie] Yes, I was able to interview Jenn. That was awesome. [Elisha] Yeah, that's right, exactly. [Katie] Yeah, and are you? [Elisha] I'm on Instagram. [Aaron] Yeah, is yours @nowthatimafather? [Elisha] @nowthatimafather. [Katie] @nowthatimafather, yeah. [Elisha] That's right. Yeah, so that's really where you can find us, and then our website's nowthatwereafamily.com. [Aaron] So we just wanna encourage our listeners to go follow them and check them out. They have large families, large, awesome, godly families. [Jennifer] And they're growing theirs. [Aaron] And they're throwing theirs, and God's using them. [Elisha] Right on. [Jennifer] Okay, well, at the end of every episode, we just encourage everyone to join us in prayer. So Aaron, would you like to close us out in prayer? [Aaron] Dear Lord, we thank you for the way you created us, and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so we can see all the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriages to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do. In Jesus's name, amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Elisha and Katie] Amen. [Aaron] So thanks for joining us today, Katie and Elisha Voetberg. We love you guys, and we thank you for your story and your testimony. [Elisha] Mm, thank you guys, seriously. Thank you for your ministry. [Katie] Yes. [Elisha] And, I mean, I don't know if you guys are gonna keep this on, but. [Aaron] Oh, yeah. [Elisha] But just as an example you guys have shown to us I've really been thinking about this the last couple of weeks, is your guys' consistency in your faith and in your marriage and in your child training. That's a huge blessing to me as a new father. [Aaron] Thank you. [Elisha] Then also just in being in consistent community, being in consistent fellowship with our local body here. I just know that you'll be there. I know that you're a phone all or a text away and that you will be there on Sunday, and I see you guys being so faithful in your Bible times as a family, and I just never want you guys to question not only the work that's taking place in your own family, but the encouragement that is to me as a believer and I'm sure just to the global body that watches that. [Katie] Yes, you've been such a blessing to our family. [Jennifer] Thank you for sharing that, that's awesome. [Aaron] Thank you, well, yeah, I appreciate that. [Elisha] Actually, I'm gonna say one more thing. Just 'cause I don't know how many people you're gonna have on your podcast that go to your local church, but being the father of a two-year-old boy, I've really started to think more and more about child training within the church service content. And we've been going to church for almost two and a half years now with you guys and seen how you guys have been able to really train your children to sit in church is so inspiring. [Katie] Oh my goodness, yeah. [Elisha] You guys, I know that most of you listeners probably are never gonna have an opportunity to sit in church with Aaron and Jen, but their kids are so well behaved. They sit on their laps, and the only reason that's so remarkable to me now is because I've got a two-year-old, and it feels like I'm in a jiu jitsu match throughout the entire church service with him. [Katie] Yeah, we're trying to take notes from Aaron and Jen. [Elisha] Yeah. [Aaron] Well, thank you. [Elisha] Yeah, no, it's true. [Aaron] Yeah, thank you, I appreciate that. [Jennifer] It is about consistency, I would say, just to encourage others out there. The children just, they're awesome and they're a blessing to us. [Aaron] And it takes lots of hard work, and lots of prayer, and lots of screaming in pillows. [Katie] There you go. [Aaron] So, hey, thank you, that was really encouraging. We love you guys, and all you listening, we love you, and we thank you for joining us, and we pray that you will continue on in this journey with us as we have a few more episodes in this series. We'll see you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Gay and Katie Hendricks have learned a lot about relationship transformation and body intelligence in their 40 years as a couple. They harnessed their ability to translate powerful concepts into life-changing skills that you can easily integrate to start giving yourself the loving attention and nourishment you deserve. Gay and Katie have written over 40 books to help individuals and couples who struggle with basic relationship problems, including inequality that results from not loving yourself enough. This couple preaches the need for generating your healing from the inside out while learning to properly express your emotions and have an open appreciation for the world around you. In each of us, there is an urge to feel connected and feel unity and also an urge to be individual and have a direct relationship with life and the universe. This is why Gay and Katie have dedicated themselves to helping people just like you figure out the balance in their lives and create something special that is unique to you and your partnership. At the end of the day, love is the only thing that allows us to become whole, and see others as a whole as well. By understanding your underlying emotions, getting rid of your fear and coming into presence, your intuitive voice can shine through and lead you to a healthier and happier version of yourself. How does Gay and Katie's relationship inspire you? Let us know in the comments. In This Episode How to discover the inner essence of your true self and bring it outside The necessity of taking space for yourself and listening to signals from your body Creating a space where you can be your authentic self together in your relationship Embracing your whole body intuition to create inner space and clarity Paying attention to how you are listening and dropping your shields   Quotes “The intention to love yourself first really opens the portals to all other kinds of magic” (4:38) - Katie “It became very important for me to learn how to own certain things in myself, rather than putting them out there when I was angry, scared and sad” (10:17) - Gay “To me, the most exciting thing in life is learning something new and I think people need to get sold on learning new things about relationships” (19:37) - Gay “Since the day I have met you I have never been bored. And one of the reasons is that we are always learning something and discovering something and sharing that discovery with each other” (20:06) - Katie “I think one of the things we all need to do is open our hearts a little bit bigger and listen a little more generously. First to ourselves but then also to the people in our lives as well” (30:48) - Gay “Intuition is really fostered by learning how to love yourself and giving yourself attention, but also being in alignment with your feelings and your expression” (37:02) - Katie   LinksFear Melters YouTube Video The Hendricks Institute Website Follow Hearts in Harmony on Facebook | Twitter | YouTube List of Katie Hendricks Books List of Gay Hendricks Books   Find the full show notes for this episode here Keep up with all things Love Is Medicine Follow Razi on Facebook

 Expressing gratitude is the #1 powerful tool to change your life. Try being grateful and angry at the same time. Can you do it? NO. This is a guest interview with Katie Neubaum - motivational speaker, coach, and leader. We sat down a while back but the message is impactful and worth sharing again.   Transcript: I have a guest on today that we are going to walk through motivation, positivity. We're going to cover a lot of ground with meditation, transforming from a career in a completely different direction. As I mention my focus and goal with rapping up 2014 and we head into 2015 is to share some stories of inspiration and motivation about people who have really reshaped their lives into something that they really desired and wanted, and how to get there, and some of the steps. And the fears, and the issues that pop up along the way. 1:08 Today's guest is Katie Neubaum; she is not only a motivational speaker, but also a coach for wellness and wealth creation. We get into the beginnings of her transformation, some of the fears, some of the issues that popped up, and in the end she shares her current direction of where she is at in creating the life that she's really desired and wanted to live and how she got there. You may or may not resonate with her business model but that's not the purpose of this episode. It's about the transformative journey in going from point A to point B, and some of the hurdles and the issues along the way. I think you will really resonate with her mission and her message of positivity. And so let's get into it. 1:45 Alright welcome to another episode of project you. As I mentioned before we are on a journey of transformation and transition, and I'm very happy to bring on Katie Neubaum here this morning to share her mission. Katie: Hi there I'm so glad to be here with you doctor. Yeah this is cool and so I wanted to wind down 2014 into 2015 with a sort of a transformation. I think a lot of people get stuck in the rut of what's worked in the past and sort of forget to push pass boundaries. If I could I'd just like to jump back into your past, and if you would share a little bit about from where you were as a piano teacher and kind of where you are now. And sort of that word; that journey. Katie: Absolutely. So about 2 years ago, well formally for about the past 5 years I've been teaching boys in piano lessons to a studio of about 25 students. And I was teaching in a couple of studios as well as in my home. I majored in music at the University of Miami and did my Masters studies at the University of South Carolina. So I thought that's what I wanted to do and as I had my young children. And it was going really well but I just didn't feel fulfilled, once I was in the small studio and I was no longer performing and I was having to leave my children and go to the studios. I just was looking for something else. So about two years ago I had gotten overweight and I was really tired all the time and definitely wasn't feeling comfortable in my skin. 3:13 So I had tried a bunch of fad diet and that's what led me to looking into this program that I found. And I went ahead and took another venture, was offered a hundred percent money back guarantee and just jumped in with two feet and said I'm going to do this. And I cleansed my body, went through this whole 30 day process and came out feeling amazing. I was able to release pounds and actually 26 pounds in one month, and started to feel great. And that's when my life kind of shifted into, oh my gosh this is amazing I got to share this with people. And it started right there with sharing good healthy nutrition with other folks, transitioning from by being so much a piano and voice teacher. I was actually able to retire myself in about 7 months of putting my nose to the grime of sharing this nutrition with others. Quadrupled my income, so that's what turned me into motivating and inspiring others to become their best selves and take care of their bodies and their minds. Mitchel: Was this like an overnight revolution or realization that I got small kids and what I’m doing right now isn't working, or was it more of a gradual transition? Katie: It was a gradual transition in that when I first got the products into my body I realized that I had something spectacular and something special, and something that was really helping me to feel better. I didn't realize right away the gift that I had and I would be able to set myself physically and financially free with these products, and I didn't realize how I would be able to quit my job and that was even something I wanted to do. So I would say it was more gradual. Mitchel: Sure And I would imagine that there was some anxieties; some fears, maybe some self-doubt along the way as you're transitioning from professional voice and music teacher into a different realm of life. 5:16 Katie: Yeah. I'm glad you asked me that question and asked it that way. Because I turned to personal growth, one of the things that my company is a bi advocate of is personal growth. We're taught that you can only grow your business to the extent that you grow yourself. And when I heard those words my dad was a ? teacher and he always promoted positive thinking and when i was in Ms University of Miami pageant I did my platform on positive thinking. So I've always been kind of wired that way, but I've never done meditation, and I've always been a praying woman but I didn't really know what meditation was. But as i started to meditate and really live out a ? and I made a vision board and I mad affirmations and had a gratitude journal. That's really when my business turned into a business, and when I saw the big picture that oh my God, I'm going to set myself free with this company. Mitchel: That's cool. You hit on a couple of things that i am really interested in both personally and professionally. You mentioned number 1 meditation and 2 gratitude journaling. If you could just shared a little bit about  how you meditate, and just tell us what a gratitude journal is for those who don't know; how it works. Katie: Okay, sure. So for meditation, because I was a new meditator I didn't know what to do so I looked on line and I found this fabulous guide; this guided meditation by Dr. Wayne Dyer. And one of the very first things that Wayne Dyer said that resonated with me was, when you change the way you look at things; the things you look at change. And so I thought, oh my gosh I've always thought that meditation was weird. So let us turn this around I'm going to think about meditation being the coolest thing ever. And what if its right, what if it can set me free in my mind. So I downloaded on my little app here meditations for manifestations, and its a 2o minutes morning meditation and 20 minutes evening meditation. The morning one is Ahh based on a creation Buddha, Allah, Krishna, God, everything that has the Ahh. So all of the Ahh and I'm a singer too. Michel: Yeah and you've got a nice voice, I won't tell and demonstrated, my kids have heard it. I meditate sometimes and our son and my kids walked by on their way to school and they look in there and just kind of shake their heads; they're use to it now. Katie: I know, well the whole meditation thing it was a little strange for me but once I realized, oh this is kind of singing and my whole body was vibrating and I was feeling all of this like, oh my gosh and I was going to the zone where all things did seem possible. I can create all of these things so I started writing things out as well. And then Wayne Dyer has think about the things that you want to create today, what do you want to manifest today. So as you are doing your ahh meditation you are imagining all these things, and then in the evening he recommends doing the umm meditation that is like the gratitude and the prayer for the day. So what I like to do before that is I that I have a gratitude journal and it is purple and sparkly because I have great joy, and I have so many things to be grateful for. And you know in gratitude, not only do you have a high vibration but people are attracted to you. You're filled with love and light, because where there is love and light and gratitude you cannot have fear, you cannot have frustration and anger. So I'll sit there with my attitude journal and just write out everything I'm grateful for' a minimum of ten things. When I'm not feeling so grateful because my three children have given me a hard time or its just been like I'm exhausted, i ll start reading all the pages before full of gratitude. And a few moments passed I'm in gratitude again. And then I lay down on my floor in my office, I decorated my office to be a very calming, soothing environment for myself, which is a good place to meditate. And I lie on the floor and I umm before I go into gratitude. And I really like to drift off to sleep after my umm meditation. I will o into my room to sleep but I love doing that before bed. 9:39Mitchel: Yeah that's awesome; I think a lot of people get rapped up into the, am I doing it right. And as Wayne teaches just how you are is how you are supposed to be; you are perfect as you are at the present moment. And so I saw a great quote this morning when I got up, "the struggle end when the gratitude begins". Katie: Yes I absolutely believe that. Mitchel: So do you think there is some science behind it, you said about the way you decorated your office. Do you think that the environment plays some role into whether you can get into the proper frame of mind or state of mind, particularly not only for meditation but also on the entrepreneurial side of things? Katie: Oh yes sir I believe that when you are organized and you clear your spaces and you rid your life of the people and the thing that no longer serve you, you then make space for the things that are supposed to come into your life. So the law, I'm big on the laws of the universe, the law that governs the act of..., if you clear the deck, if you clear a counter, you clear the table. What happens before you know it, whether you or your children, there is going to be other things gathering there. You'll clear your desk and other things gather there, when you clear your closet of the clothes that will never fit you, they are from the 1970's they are out of style, get rid of them. The shoes that are just torn up, throw them out and all of a sudden you'll notice new shoes coming into you life or new outfit coming into your life and I totally believe that 100% when we clear the clutter and the stinking thinking from our brains and our heart, and clear out the clutter from our homes and our offices, and our kids rooms and out draws, that the things that are serving us and are suppose to be there, they'll be there. And the people in our lives that 't aren't serving us that have a negative vibration, once we are able to get those people out of our lives we make room for all the wonderful people that we are suppose to attract and connect with to come into our organizations.   11:43 Mitchel: Yeah, definitely I love the stinking thinking thing because people fail to realize; and maybe they realize but just fail to realize the amount of negative facts that pop up in our heads everyday is just a torrent of negativity that brings a lot of people down. And unless you really tackle it head on or shift in another direction of gratitude and meditation, its easy to get rapped up into that negative self talk. Katie: Oh yes and my favourite thing if I can add is three by five cards. I have them in my purse, I have them in my desk, I have them in my bathroom where my toothbrush is. I know this sounds a little crazy but once it gets worn out is that I use it so many times is I write it down, my positive affirmations and one of the things I was taught by one of my favourite mentors, Dave Macatha is that when you have a thought that keeps plaguing you, like let’s just say you criticize yourself and you say. I’m stupid or I’m slow or I’m tired all the time. We have to put a thought in there that combats that, every time it comes into your mind, and we all have the same ones usually that bother us and come after us. So right the negative one on one side and on the other side you are going to change the words and you are going to turn it around. So if I say to myself when I look in the mirror I’m not so pretty or I’m over weight on the other side I’m going to say I’m beautiful, I’m wonderful, I love myself I am beautiful. So I have these affirmations, well I’m really getting great at not criticizing myself and I’m mastering not having those negative thoughts any more. But my little 3 by 5 cards that I have everywhere are positive affirmations, and I don’t think that anyone can have enough positive affirmations, so I highly recommend the 3 by 5 cards everywhere.   13:36 Mitchel: Okay, cool I’ll put you on the spot. What’s one of your favourite most powerful affirmations?   Katie: I’d say I’m a master connecter. I attract many friends easily and frequently, I’ve vibrated a high level, I am a master closer, I am a great achiever, I am greatness, I am freedom, I am wonderful, it just goes on and on. You can say all kinds of things, until you believe them, you just keep on going, you can say all kinds of things about yourself,, but before you know it you are feeling pretty good. Your shoulder is up high, your head is up high, and you are feeling beautiful and strong. And that’s the way you have to be if you want to have a beautiful circle of friends that connections and have a perfect life.  You have to have those affirmations going on all day long. 14:50 Mtichel: Yeah, transforming your thoughts into reality is very powerful and very possible. When you ask people, what do you want, I think that most people automatic reaction is to tell you what they don’t want. And that’s what they focus on and that’s what they get going over. But until you shift your focus into what you actually want out of life and business or relationships or health, and replace those negative thoughts with positive affirmations, positive thinking; its really hard to get through until you do that simple step. Katie: Right Mitchel: You brought up clearing the clutter which I think is beautiful. But one of the tendencies that I think a lot of people have is consumers they clear out the space and clear out the closet which are looking a little bare and then rush out and fill it up with stuff. How do you resist that temptation? Katie: Well I believe that you will attract the things, you will purchase the things, now if you have a shopping addiction and something like that, that’s a whole other chapter. You might have to get a specialist for that. Mitchel: Yeah we are recording this a few days before Christmas so this might not be the best question. Katie: Oh I have a solution for everyone; if you are out there and you are shopping, you are spending money that you don’t have, get busy and find someone to serve. When you are in service, you will not have a second or to do those things. Lets just say you drink too much, you eat too much, you spend too much money. Well in that case you are too self absorbed and you got to find other people to spend your money and your time and you efforts on. That’s really my answer to that question is lose yourself in service and find something productive to do. Stop wasting your time gorging yourself up with things and with people and the things that aren’t uplifting and serving you. Because we all get into those ruts, I’v e been there before, I’ve been that over-eater, that over spender. But now I’m so busy serving and coaching and mentoring. I don’t have time to spend money, I have to squeeze, I’ve actually have more money than I ever have in my entire life in my bank account. And I don’t say that to brag, I say that because when you are serving others, and you are lifting them up, it comes back to you ten fold. So the great sacrifices that you make in building your network and pouring that love and that energy into the people that are not necessarily beneath you, but your teammates that don’t quite have what you have yet. They need a mentor and that teaching, and also with your children and your husband and your friends. Everybody needs that service and that input, and you got that extra energy, and even if you don’t you won’t be filled. And in this holiday season where he was just mentioning here, if you are feeling empty and depressed, find yourself into service. Go find a soup kitchen or an orphanage or someone if you don’t have money, take your time and your stories, and your heart and you will be fulfilled. And all of a sudden you emptiness and that loneliness, and that depression that you are feeling right now will just vanish. 18:12 Mitchel: Yeah, absolutely. People just fail to realize that even their simple act of giving or helping can unearth so much positive emotion, accomplishment and a sense of self-worth. Even if it’s a simple helping someone across the streets or helping someone with a bag of groceries, or even more global like you mentioned. Helping an organization or a population that needs service, needs support and that’s very powerful. And so I’m looking at your LinkedIn profile here and I see motivational speaker and wellness coach, so take me through a transition of voice or music to motivational speaking. How did you get there, how did you acquire those skills, or was that something you kind of develop? Katie: I would say it’s a combination of both. Now when you are music major you’re performing all the time so being on the stage was natural for me. And I always loved it from the time I was a little girl, if someone asked me to perform I would jump right up. And I was very blessed in my life that, I always when I audition for a scholarship or to go to a special; an international singing ? or even; I always got the scholarship. And I was always able to go and perform, so I was blessed in that. I have the gift of singing and voice and stage presence. So I was put on the stage throughout my entire life. And I’ve built a team, and like I said it came about me getting healthy first and then sharing that with a couple of people. That really have developed over this last two years. And teaching what I learned and what I felt with other people, and then realizing that, wow, people are finding great value in what I’m sharing. And I am able to put my words together, and I am a good speaker, and as I started to believe in myself, others believed in me. And I started getting little speaking engagements here and there, and no matter who was asking me, whether it was free or paid I said yes. I stepped up to the plate because I knew that by putting myself there and stating, yes I can speak to your organization about nutrition today. Now mind you I majored in music, I’m not a nutrionalist, I’m someone that learned how to eat and feed my body and become balanced and feel good. But I was also in the military so I do have that education and all that physical training of taking care of my own body. And by stepping up to the plate and just saying yes is how I have become the motivational speaker and coach that I am today. And how I’m able to say yes to engagements now where I am going to be paid and I am being endorsed by people that I never thought I would have endorsements from, so that’s how it really came about. 21:04 Mitchel: Was there any fear along the way, like when you are starting to yes to maybe a larger audience, or maybe audiences that you are not quite comfortable with than other audiences. Did you have some trepidations along the way? Katie: Absolutely, my voice coaches always said, if you are not scared and you don’t have butterflies, then you are not working hard enough. So I think the butterflies are good, I am getting really good at turning fears into love, as I’m reading all of these great books and I am meditating and all of that. I’m absolutely ? and even getting on this interview today; I didn’t know what to expect but when people ask me I now take it as a compliment. And I said ok, this person wants to interview me, this persons wants me to speak as the audience gets bigger, I get a lot more nervous but I always say, if I forget what to say, I’ll just break out into an operative aura. I’ll just start singing. Mitchel: These tools are in your bag there. Katie: That’s right Mitchel: I think its difficult for a lot of us to deal with, myself included is to lean into the fear or feel the fear into doing it any way. But really that’s the way to grow and stretch. Katie: Oh yes and  it feels you, you let that fear feel you. Just, instead of thinking and perceiving it to be fear, think of it as a fire burning in your body and into your heart, and take that passion and deliver. Now when you take it out of your head into our heart, that’s when people really start to get you. And they can’t say no, they want more and more and more. Because when you are speaking  from your heart you know how it is and you know that I’m speaking from my heart right now because that’s how I do it, that’s what I’ve learned is to take my fears and just put it into my heart and just speak what’s in there. 22:56 Mitchel: Yeah, absolutely, I was at a presentation where a motivational speaker was talking about connecting with the audience and preparing and the fear that he still feels after he is addressing crowd of over 5000 people. And his message was just as you said, the love, the helping somebody, and he pick out somebody in a few rows, and just focus on one or two people and helped them in whatever way he could with the time he had. So that was kind of a neat little technique and a way to connect with your audience and moved passed the butterflies and fears that pop up right away. Katie: Yeah that’s a great idea, I’ll have to use that. Mitchel: You mentioned reading, what are you reading right now, what book are you reading?   Katie: Okay, so I have one here beside me. I have a couple of goodies that I love. I’m reading Don Miguel Ruelsies, A circle of fire. It’s about self-love that actually covers a lot: gratitude, fear ,love, forgiveness. It’s a beautiful book; I’m digging into working with the law by Raymond Allowell, I absolutely love that book. I’m reading Louise L A Harts A treasury of wisdom. Mitchel: Is that a publisher ALs; the owner of ALs Publishing? Katie: Not sure, she is a female, I don’t see ALs publishing on the book. Mitchel: Okay. Katie: She is Louise Haye and she is absolutely fabulous. But I’ll tell you what, every time I get a new member on my team, two books that I love for folks to download is feeling is the secret I never bothered. And it is a two hour download. Its about 3 bucks on Amazon and its fabulous. And the other one is called the strangest secret by Earl Nightingale. Mitchel: I’ve seen some of his stuff and I haven’t listened to him but I’m a big audible fan so I guess I have to check him out. Katie: Okay we can get that one on YouTube, it’s called the strangest secret you will love it. Mitchel: Okay, awesome. You mentioned something about you team tell us a little bit about your team and your current wellness project what’s that all about. 25:17 Katie: Okay,so the name of my company is Isogenic, and I was introduced by my good friend Jeniffer Trickener. She just hit 8 star platinum in my company, be that so she’s making about $70,000 a month and she’s been in for 3 and 1/2 years. She introduced me and I took off with it like I said I was feeling amazing, starting to build a team. I now have about 2300 people in my down line. Now I didn’t enroll all these people, now if anyone understands network marketing you share with a couple of people and they share with a couple. So I’m currently a 2 star crysillic executive, I’m making between 10 and 12 thousand dollars a month, and that’s residual income. So that’s absolutely fabulous, and I’m just building and loving this company. And its based on solutions for folks. So You know no one wants to go on a diet, so it just have the word diet in it; I starve, I was always tired and grumpy. So when you join my team I teach you that you’re getting solutions to losing weight by helping your body to becomes balance in alkaline, increasing your energy and performance. I have a massive amounts of fitness models, body builders, just people that take care of their health through that serious level. Now I’m not a body builder in no way, shape or form, but my athletes have found amazing and tremendous increase in their energy and also taking titles. Once they do the cellular cleanse, they are able to stop carb depleting, they just do my 40s cellular cleanse and it brings out their muscle tone and its just amazing. And then again we have healthy aging products that have been scientifically proven to reverse ageing. And then of course wealth creation, which is my favourite knowing that I am on a great path. I am heading towards six figures which is why I am definitely ending out this year with a six figures, and this is just my second year with the company. So its super exciting, it is growing quickly, and I love mentoring and I love coaching, and I love team building. So this has just been such a blessing, this company is amazing. 27:36 Mitchel: Yeah, definitely. Now you bring up cleanse, the whole anti-ageing this is something I’m very passionate about as a physician; a functioning medical practitioner. I’m doing a modified fast right now. That’s if I can ? because… Can you just share a little about the cleanse, what that is? And some people might think that it involves enemas or self torture. Katie: Absolutely doctor, do you know that today you are on a fast, and I am having cellular cleanse right now. So you and I are both cleansing, so we can compare notes. What I do on a cellular cleanse day, now today I'm doing a 24 hour cleanse, you could do up to 48 hours safely. But what you do is you drink this juice called biotic supreme, has a ? that fight physical, mental and emotional stress. So this is a drink for all people especially for mommies and athletes, and busy professionals. Because it adapts to your body ?. And you will be blown away by the ingredients in these products; they are just phenomenal. So you drink that in the morning, and then in a little while you'll drink this juice called cleanse for life. It loaded with botanical and minerals and wonderful ingredients. There is aloe in there and its just so soothing to the stomach, and its nice with a pout. Its not a strange or weird taste, and you also with this cleanse you get to eat organic chocolate. And there are used green tea, so it makes you feel good, it takes delicious; they come in dark chocolate and milk chocolate. And of course they are organic and everything in our... 29:11 Mitchel: Can I have some now, I'm starving. Katie: Sure if I can pass them through, I would love to send them to you. And then we have these amazing little fibre snacks that are called ice for snack, and they actually ? from glycerol fat. When we did these scientific study against other, like the hard healthy diet > that I'm sure you are familiar with, Isogenics blue it out of the water with breaking down glycerol fat by about 47%. You got to take a look at that but what it does is that, if you ever have; I don't know if you saw my after and before picture. But I was able to release 85 pounds in six months. And I know that if you see people in your practice lose weight quickly, you worry about hanging skin or are they going to feel well. But I felt fabulous, I actually trained with the man who train me; he was my drill sergeant when I was in the army. And I do as many pushups, I ran faster than I did 12 years ago and he was blown away. When he saw the transformation of my body, and how I did not have hanging skin; now I do workout, I've always worked out. I’ve always loved exercising, but you'll see if you ever looked at my before pictures that the transformation is phenomenal. So that's what you do, so the cleanse day you just eating those snacks, eating the chocolates, drinking those two different beverages, and of course flooding your body with purified water. And then at nights you take a isoflush and this helps to flush toxins through your colon as you're sleeping, and when you wake up you will eventually feel like you have super powers. More energy than you could ever imagine, you'll run faster and further than you ever have. Its like the energy is incredible, there is nothing like the cellular cleanse, absolutely nothing. 30:58 Mitchel: That's cool, now you mentioned purified water, when we say purified water, a lot of people think that means that little nestle that says pure water; you are talking about something different obviously. Katie: Well, I like to use alkaline water; I actually buy the eternal water from... I should, just go ahead and get one of the devices that makes your water alkaline. Isogenics does have a product that have a product that you can just pour into your water bottle and make the water alkaline; which also works. Or you can get a device for your sink that makes your water alkaline, that's the best water for your cleanse days or you can also purchase it. Mitchel: That's cool, yeah I drink a glass of Apple cider vinegar in the morning just for a little alkaline start of the day typically. And I see that ? on your instagram page or your twitter page, are you a ? racer? Katie: Right, I do run a couple of sporting races. My drill sergeant is a big huge school? racer. So of course he likes to get me on those; one race a month is what he like me to participate in. So I've done all kinds of things with him. Mitchel: That's awesome, Well I want to thank you for your time and I appreciate your wisdom and your positive message here to share with our audience today. I just wanted to ask you one last question before we rap this up here. If you could give one tip, one piece of motivational advice to somebody who is looking to transform their life from where they are now to where they want to be, what would you say? Katie: I would say Martin Luther King said, you only have to see the first step and take the first step. So people look at the staircase of healthy transformation and it overwhelms them, but take one step write down today, I am beautiful, I am taking steps in the right direction, I'm going to drink a gallon of water today. Take one step every single day towards good health. And stop thinking about the past, because the past is gone. But today, live in the present, make goals for tomorrow, write them down. Find someone to lock arms with, get with someone, an accountability partner that also wants to improve their health. This is a perfect time, everyone is thinking about that transformation. Something my team is doing for instance is we are doing a group 30 days cleansing fat burning system starting on January 5th. Find an organization like that; you are welcome to join us or find another one. Lock arms with other  people and take one step at a time, and in a forward direction. Mitchel: Definitely I love that. And so where can people find out more about you and what you're doing and can connect with you? Where are you at? Katie: I am on Facebook at katieneubaum, you can connect with me there on Face book. I have a lot of positive and motivating things going on there. And I also have my page find your greatness there as well. And there on Linkinden , same name, katieneubaum and I'm happy to connect with anyone of you there. And my website is katieneubaum.inagenix.com and you can look at my product line there, but I would love to connect with each and every one of you personally and hear your story and see if there is a way that I can help you. If there is anything I can do to help you or guide you or give you some ideas of get you on my 30 day cleanse and fat burn system, we would love to. We are giving away a thousand dollars grand prize just in 30 days so just for participating you have a chance to get that. And I have another contest where people just for participating in my other contest can get 200 dollars towards free products. So I have all kind of goodies and I'm happy on LinkedIn you can see my phone numbers there, my email is getrichandfitnow@gmail.com. And so I'm real easy to get in contact with, you can feel free to text me or call me, I'm always happy to be in service. Mitchel: Awesome, thanks so much Katie for your time and have a great weekend. Thank you sir, you too.

This week, we have a brief discussion about how third party ad networks affect performance on news sites before talking with Sophie Shepherd. Sophie is a Senior Designer at Ushahidi, a non-profit software company that develops free and open-source products for information collection, visualization, and interactive mapping. We discussed the challenges of designing for international users with minimal data speed, how Ushahidi brings data and information to regions with nearly no connection, designing with task completion in mind, and more. ##Show Links: Sophie Shepherd Follow Sophie on Twitter Ushahidi Lara Hogan - A List Apart - Showing Performance Global Mobile Book Eric Meyer Crisis Design Rust Belt Refresh ##Transcript Katie: Welcome. You're listening to Episode 8 of The Path to Performance, the podcast dedicated to everyone to make the web faster. I am your host, Katie Kovalcin. Tim: And I'm your other host, Tim Kadlec and yeah, you nailed it; this is Episode 8. Well done! Katie: I was like, oh yeah, I totally know which episode it is. Wait: no, I don't. This is Episode 8. Tim: I mean, it's understandable; the numbers are getting higher, it's getting harder and harder. Katie: Totally out of control it's on more than one hand now! Tim: Yeah, once you've thrown that second hand, things get really complicated. It gets worse when you have to start taking off the socks and using your toes as well! That's where I always get hung up! Katie: You can wear flip-flops and then you don't have to worry about it. Tim: True, true. Katie: How are you, Tim? Tim: I'm doing OK; I'm actually wearing flip-flops right now! Yeah, I am! Katie: It's warm in Wisconsin? Tim: It is warm, for once. Yeah, I'm doing good; enjoying my day. And you? Katie: I'm good as well. The sun is shining here, which is a very rare thing in Ohio this summer and I feel like I have been whining about it for so long but today, I'm not whining. Tim: That's good! That's good! I'm guessing, we could maybe one of these times maybe we'll have an episode where we just kind of whine all the way through, but otherwise I think people probably enjoy the non-whining better. Katie: We can just have a bummer episode! Tim: Yeah, just a downer of an episode where we just air all our grievances about everything… Katie: We just talk in emo voice, just like…mwww…yeah, the web does actually kinda suuuuck… Tim: Yeah, exactly! I think this goes over well, I think this is maybe like a special Christmas edition. Katie: That is a really good idea. Tim: Right in time for the holidays. Katie: Christmas Bummer Episode! Tim: This is brilliant. That has to happen; I'm writing this down. Anyway, but glad to hear you're doing good now on this totally not Christmas at all episode. That's good. Katie: Yeah, on this summer-sunshine flip-flop fun-time episode! Tim: Yay! Katie: So, on the note of cool things, there's this episode from the Washington Post where in kind of a similar fashion, I know we talked a couple of months ago about Vox sort of declaring performance bankruptcy, Washington Post kinda did the same thing and talked about in an article the other day and that was pretty cool. They mentioned it sort of being in response to the instant articles and talking about just ads on news sites generally kind of sucky for performance, but I really liked this quite that it ended on that we have very little control over ads that load late or slowly but we wanted to make the core use experience as solid as possible because that is what we have control over and that's kind of a cool way to think about performance, just focusing on making good the core part that you do have control over. Tim: Yeah, and I think that's just generally awesome advice for anybody, because the ad work stuff comes up a lot and you have very little control over those third party ad networks and unfortunately a lot of them are super-slow right now but also essential for business but I like that they made the clear distinction between their core experience and understanding that the ads is just something you're going to have to tack on afterwards but mitigate the issues as much as possible. I think that's just really solid advice for any publisher. Katie: Yeah, absolutely. It's a nice article, it's a quick read; I recommend giving that a little skim or browse. Tim: Definitely. And then of course, Lara Hogan, who has made a habit out of writing good things over and over and over again or providing good performance advice in general, she wrote a post for A List Apart about showing performance; basically getting into some of the things she talked about way back in Episode 1 with us and also in her book about the importance of making performance visual: going into the dashboards and things like that, that they have up at Etsy and making sure that people can actually see the difference in performance. Katie: Yeah, she tweeted a little quick video a while ago and it might actually be in that article, I haven't had a chance to read it yet; it's on my to-do list but she posted a video of their video systems and it's really cool, it's really awesome to see that. Did I tell you that Lara, she talks about donuts all the time and donuts being her reward for good performance, achievements, good things like that, and when I saw Lara in New York a couple weeks ago, she took me to The Donut Spot that's in her neighborhood and I was so excited! Tim: Yeah, you told me. She's never taken me to The Donut Spot. I'm a little disappointed. I'm excited for you though: that sounds really cool. That's kind of… Katie: You know what? It was a really good donut because she says she's not a fan of the hipster donuts with a bunch of stupid toppings like cereal and candy bars and crap. Tim: Like the voodoo donuts thing in Portland? Katie: Yeah. These are just some straight-up home-town donuts in Brooklyn; I guess not really home-town but they were good! Tim: That's good. This is just like plain glazed? I want to know how far down the rabbit hole you went. Katie: We got banana…no, not banana: they were like custard-filled ones with the chocolate icing. I'm not a donut expert but those good ones! Tim: Gotcha, OK. That's a safe choice. Katie: Not the white sugary whipped cream-filled, the kind of yellowy-custard cream-filled ones; those are good ones. I don't know the distinction: is one cream and one custard? Is one icing and one cream? I don't know. Tim: I think it's usually like an icing and cream thing. Depending on where you go, it's almost like pure frosting is what it tastes like you're eating… Katie: Yeah, like you bite in and you're just like, oh my… Tim: Yeah, it's like there's frosting on the outside of the donut and frosting shoved down the inside as well and you just feel the cavities forming as you're eating them. It's great. It's a really good experience. But that's good. No, I did not…you did tell me this and that's very awesome, very cool. It's kinda like… Katie: Sorry; I'm obviously still thinking about that. Tim: I don't blame you. Katie: It was an experience. But, back to today's episode! We are talking to Sophie Shepherd and the big reason we wanted to get Sophie on here is not only because she's an awesome designer but because she has experience with working on products that are primarily used in developing countries that typically have the less than ideal device scenarios that we kind of always talk about in theory but she has some really great insight on talking a bout it in practice and actually designing for those devices and scenarios so it's going to be really interesting. Tim: Yeah, it'll be a nice fresh take, a different perspective than we usually get. Very cool. Katie: Cool. Well, let's go hear from Sophie. Katie: And we're back with Sophie Shepherd from Ushahidi. Sophie; can you tell us a little bit about Ushahidi and what exactly that is? Sophie: Sure. So, the what exactly it is, it's a Swahili word that means "Testimony". A lot of people are like, "Usha-what?" so it's not English so don't feel bad if you can't say it. And the company was founded in 2008 in Kenya so in 2008 what was happening in Kenya. there was an election that was fairly corrupt and there was quite a bit of violence broke out and some bloggers who were in Kenya and living in Kenya realized that they needed to do something to help out as well as just writing about what was happening, so they made a product in which people could submit reports of different places where the election was happening, different polling stations and this way they could say, there's been violence here, someone was killed here or this is a safe place where you can go to vote, or there's fraud happening. And what Ushahidi does is it takes all of these different reports and collects them into one place and provides a list and a map for them. So that's how it was founded; it's now a number of products but the name of our main platform is still Ushahidi and the purpose of it is still too collect data, crowd-source data. It's oftentimes gets mapped but isn't necessarily, we're re-doing the platform right now so that it's not only map data; it can really be anything that users submit. Katie: Awesome. So, spoiler alert, I know Sophie really well so I know the details of what she does and what really struck me and why I wanted to get her on the podcast so bad is because you deal a lot with users that are in places that have really poor connectivity and the products that you're designing are really crucial information that they need to get to. Can you talk a little bit about all of that and the challenges that you face when designing for that? Sophie: Sure. So, I think something that's really interesting is that it's not only poor connectivity but the kind of contexts in which people are using our products are unique. Not exclusively, but oftentimes they're used in crisis situations, so people don't have a whole lot of time. A lot of the time, the power could be down or internet could be down, so it's not only we have to think about connectivity but also ways that people are submitting information. This has been the first project I've worked on where it's not just, when we talk about performance, it's not just people needing to load something fast but it's about access and accessibility so, built into our product is people can anonymously text stuff in and that'll become a part of our system so it's really thinking about this whole ecosystem of access and ways of submitting information rather than just a website. Katie: Can you talk a little bit about what that means exactly, more than just a website? How else are you working around those connectivity and accessibility issues? Sophie: Yes, well, Ushahidi as a whole, not only with our platform but we have a lot of other companies that have spun out from the product itself, so there's a company Brick which is really, really awesome. It was founded by someone who was also a founder in Ushahidi and they make wifi devices that are super-rugged; they work off 3G connections so you can take those anywhere. We were in Kenya and they have all these attachments so it can be solar-powered wifi, so we had a group meeting in Kenya and we were all accessing the internet in the middle of nowhere on a beach from this device we had. So, it's thinking more about getting people information. Similarly we do a lot with SMS so if someone only has a phone they can text in a report or receive a response saying, OK, this has been confirmed, through their phone. Tim: This is fascinating stuff. I always think it's very interesting to hear the perspective outside of what we're used to in the little bubble that we get to live in here in the United States tech industry. This is taking everything in terms of the importance of building something that is going to work on different devices and the importance of building something that's going to perform well and this is really scaling up the importance of doing that, the vitality of doing that from just business metrics to, like you're saying, people's lives at stake in some of these cases. I'm curious; you mentioned being in Kenya and using those devices to get access. You can't obviously develop all the time in Kenya, so how are you finding ways to get that experience here, when you're building stuff from the United States so that you're feeling what it's going to be like on those, a 2G or a 3G connection or whatever it happens to be? Sophie: It's definitely a challenge for me because not only am I working every day on a really good connection but I've never really not had that; maybe five years ago my connection was not as good as it was now but I think I've always been as far as connection speeds in the one per cent, but we have a really great user advocacy team at Ushahidi so this is not only thinking about performance and website metrics, but we have a whole team that is dedicated to making sure that our users are satisfied, listening to what their needs are and responding in that way and also helping them, because this is a product that then gets extended and they can download it and set up their own deployments to use the product so we have a team that works really closely with people who are actually using it, which is terrific because we get a lot of feedback through that. Tim: I was going to say, are some of the team members in Kenya? Sophie: Uh-huh. Yeah, we have one person in Kenya, one person in Canada and then we have as part of, we have a specific user testing wing that's in Kenya but what they do is, since they are so in touch with people who use this stuff all over the world, they're good at being able to not only test it in Kenya but test it elsewhere and talk to…we have a large group using this stuff in Nepal right now because of the earthquake so they're in touch with them, checking that everything's working OK, getting any feedback from them. Katie: Do you tend to look at what specific devices the majority of users in these areas are using and start building and testing there or how does that work out? What's the size of an iPhone, that tends to be our default? What devices are you really thinking about in those areas? Sophie: It's interesting because right now, we are in the midst of re-building this product and so a lot of the people out there who are using it right now are using Version 2 which is the older version and at this point I don't even know how many years old it is but it's fairly outdated. It still works really well but it's not responsive; it's hard, we've noticed that quite a lot of people are using it on a desktop but that's only because it doesn't work very well on a phone so it'll be really interesting, we're launching the new one which is fully responsive and a lot more modern in this way to see how people end up using it. But it's tough because we can't say, iPhone users use this because it's used really everywhere in the world so maybe if it's used in the US it is going to be on an iPhone more, whereas elsewhere, it's Android but we try to cast a really wide net so there's an Android app that will be used for collecting information, you can submit by SMS. The new version's going to be totally responsive so what we try to do is not really focus on one but make sure that everyone can use it. Katie: So, you've been working on a responsive re-design and everything we've talked about has been the poor connectivity and all of that. How has performance played into those decisions when building this site or the product again for this new version? Sophie: It's a continuous consideration and process of checks and balances. One thing is that, thinking about images: part of this new system is we're able to have people submit images as part of their reports so that's something that we still have not quite figured out how we should work with how to then deliver those back to people and also thinking about different JavaScript libraries that we're using. It's a constant balance, so I think we're still figuring it out. We've done quite a bit of user-testing but more UX user-testing but the application itself is not totally done, it hasn't been built yet, so I think that's to come in terms of optimizing how it's going to work exactly. But from the design and front-end, we've definitely been keeping things really light and really the only question that we have is how we're going to treat images. Tim: Is it primarily a matter of using them or not using them or is it a degree of compression in terms of getting them to a point where maybe they're a little pixilated and ugly but they're balanced: the trade-off is that they're going to perform well on those types of networks? What are you battling with, with the images? Sophie: Well, I think basically every single image that is ever going to be on the site is going to be submitted by a user, so we don't know exactly the sizes of images that are going to come in and then at what point we are then going to compress them or shrink them and how we're going to do that and then how they're going to then be delivered back out. Yeah. Tim: So it's getting a system in place for all the user-generated content? Sophie: Exactly, yes. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: So, you talk a lot about style guides and patter libraries and Sophie I know that's how you like to design and work. What is that process looking like? Do you do testing as you go on designs and see how performing it is or how fast it's loading under those different circumstances? Can you just talk a little bit about your design thinking? Sophie: Yeah. What we have been doing is we did all the UX fairly separately, thinking about just user flows and how things were going to be laid out and how things should work and then we did some visual design and then we started combining these by building the pattern library, so we took out patterns from visual design and eventually we've just started building templates and designing in the browser because we have enough of these patterns to build upon and it's been really great; this is the first time that I've worked in this way and what I really love about it is that each of our patterns and components basically stand on their own so it's really easy to look at them and understand exactly where certain weights are coming from. By designing modularly, we can pull those out rather than seeing a page as a whole and not really understand what's causing what. Tim: In a prior episode, we were talking to Jeff Lembeck of Filament Group and he mentioned what he called the "Jank Tank" which is this big box of basically ugly, horrible, slow devices. Considering how wide the net you're spreading, do you have anything similar? Is there a Ushahidi Jank Tank that you guys go to? Sophie: There isn't, but I love that idea. Tim: Yeah, I think we were fans of that too. Sophie: Is it like…what does he mean exactly? Tim: The idea was having… Sophie; …lowest common denominator kind of devices? Time: Yeah, basically grabbing cheap devices or old devices and firing those up: things that are going to be maybe a few years old and are probably going to be a huge challenge to make things feel fluid and work well on those and you have those handy to test them out and see what honestly might be a more typical user would experience than the high end stuff. Sophie: Yeah, we don't have that here in the States; I feel bad calling it a Jank Tank because that's negative-sounding, but in the office in Kenya, they have…they all work in a building and there's quite a few tech companies that work in there and they have something like a Mobile Device Lab and I think it was sponsored by a mobile company there but I was there earlier in the year and it kind of blew my mind; I put a picture of it on Twitter that we can refer to in the Speaker Notes. But that was all of these phones that were phones that I hadn't even necessarily seen, that they don't sell in the States, and they're all used for testing so at some point probably now that I'm talking about it, I'm realizing we should do it sooner rather than later, they have a whole testing lab there that we can test this product on. Tim: Nice. A mobile device lab does admittedly sound a little bit more ??? serious. Katie: Everything that you're saying sounds like, just tying in that accessibility and performance are going hand in hand and it sounds like you've just learned a great deal of empathy in your time there. Is that true and has that influenced your design? Sophie: Yeah, definitely. I think something that has really changed in my mind is thinking about when doing the design, what actions are people going to want to take, so I think that goes with performance too: if we can only load this one button that says "submit a report" and skip all of the images then that's the most important thing, so, really thinking about where to guide people and what the most important and crucial actions are before loading and everything else, so as a designer that's been definitely something that, previously I was doing client work and it was like we had this long list of requirements that we had to fit in and now it's kind of re-assessing and re-prioritizing what requirements actually are and having different levels of this is the one thing they need to really use this app and then here's all of this other helpful stuff that could be called crucial but isn't actually life or death crucial. Katie: That's really interesting. Do you think that there's any way that, for those of us still working on client projects, to have those conversations with the client to try to be like, "no, really, but the marketing video isn't truly required"; exercises in priority and stuff: do you have any tips for paring down those requirements? Sophie: I think it's tough if your talking to a marketing person because they'd be like, "no, literally I'm going to die if I don't get this on there." Katie: And you're like, "no, literally, people are on our products like…" Sophie: Yeah. I think any time it's easier to say, "does this go above this in the priority list" people are willing to answer that question rather than either or. So, in general, communicating and deciding things I would recommend ordering rather than choosing people to sacrifice things. Tim: And it seems like that's clarified too in, I would guess one of the reasons why it works so well where you are is because that task, if you're looking at what the most important thing for the user to do is, it's so very clear and so very critical whereas on maybe on a more traditional thing where you're working with marketers or whatever, they may not have as clear a sense of, what is the ultimate purpose of this site? And then it becomes a lot harder to do the prioritization without that. Sophie: Yeah; it's funny because we're in the process right now of re-designing the company site as well as re-designing the product itself and it shouldn't be, because there's no life or death, but it's so much more complicated to prioritize stuff on the company site because there's so many different types of audiences and services that it needs to provide whereas on the app itself, it's pretty clear to say, what's the most important action for someone to take. Tim: Within the new site, do you still have to take into consideration a lot of the same sort of constraints in terms of the different devices and connectivity because that's who your audience is that you're marketing to, or are you marketing to a different group through the site? Sophie: Yeah, the site will be, well that's up for debate; that's I think what we're still trying to figure out. I think by default it's a good idea to not ever say, "oh well only people in the States with nice phones are going to look at this" just because that's a dangerous attitude to have, but it's possibly less of priority for the site itself. Tim: So, going back to prioritizing performance within the actual apps and stuff that you're doing: did you have set targets that you were looking at when you were working V3 of this? Were there hard-set goals; we are not going to go over this amount of weight or we are not going to take longer than this for the map of data to appear or anything like that? Sophie: Yeah, so we set a performance budget and we've set a few of them; we set one for the front-end so what we've done is build this pattern library and we have all of our, we're calling them "weight-outs" which are basically our different views within the app itself. So we had an initial goal for that, that we've met and then we set a separate one for the build itself and that's still in process, so hopefully we can get around that target. I like this too because instead of having one end-goal we can really check as we go. Tim: Yeah, it's nice to have it broken down like that. Can we ask what the targets are, just out of curiosity? Sophie: I can look them up but I don't know them right now. Tim: That's fine. Just curious. Was it in terms of the weight or is it a different sort of, more like an experience-focused metric or anything like that, that you're targeting? Sophie: Yeah, we did a weight and a load time. Tim: Gotcha. OK. Katie: It sounds like you've worked in some of the perceived performance thinking too when you're saying, what's the critical information to load first. Sophie: Yeah, for me as a designer, that's definitely something that I can relate to more and I think in some ways it's possibly more important. I think they work as a team but… Tim: I think it is. And I think that's…I think or I hope that that's what, within the performance community, the people who really that's what they do focus on, I think that that's where everything is starting to, we're starting to wake up to that and certainly to shift towards understanding that it really is about the experience and making sure that the critical things are coming in, whatever the top task, whatever the most important features are on the page or coming in and measuring those sorts of things, instead of this blind race to the finish that we've kind of had in the past. Sophie: Yeah. I'm curious to see how that thinking changes because I love the idea of a performance budget but I think sometimes it can be a little limiting and you wouldn't want to sacrifice certain things just to fit into the performance budget. Not limiting, but I think it's very concrete whereas it should be a fairly fluid depending on context of the site itself. Tim: Sure, yeah, it doesn't dictate what goes on; it's another consideration or it's part of another piece in the puzzle. Sophie: Right. At the same time, it's the easiest way to communicate goals. Tim: True. It's hard to without it having a hard set thing, it's very hard, yeah. Sophie: Yeah, until you have the design done, you can't say, OK, our goal is that this is going to load and then this is going to load this much later. It helps to have a number that everyone can refer back to. Katie: So, when you say for everyone to communicate, who is that? Is that between you and the developers? Is this something that your leadership is really that's close to their heart as well? Sophie: Yeah, I think when I said that it was more coming from my experience with client work, where you're using this number as a kind of tactic to force a client to decide on certain things. For us, since we're all working internally, I think definitely any…basically, everyone wants to see it be as fast as it possibly can, so we're all working towards the same thing. Katie: Is there ever a push-back to even like, "OK, now that we've hit that, let's try another goal that's even faster"? Sophie: Not yet, because we haven't launched it, but I wouldn't be surprised if we launch it and get certain feedback that it wasn't loading or it wasn't working quite right on something. I'm really curious to see once it's out there and people are using it, how people respond. Katie: Yeah, I'm really curious to see what metrics you find out from that. Tim: Did you make a distinction…there's the cutting the mustard approach that the BBC popularized which is the core experience goes to maybe older, less capable browsers/devices and the enhanced experience goes to everybody else. One of the things that that fails at, or that doesn't take into consideration which seems like it would be really important for Ushahidi is the situation where you have somebody is on a very nice device but the connectivity is really awful. Did you have to make any distinction between different experiences or do you just have one experience and that experience itself is extremely lightweight, no matter what the scenario is? Was that enough for you to accomplish or you needed to do? Sophie: Yeah, that's funny; we had our company retreat in Kenya so it was I think maybe about half, maybe a little less of our company is in the US so we all went there with our snazzy iPhones and still couldn't connect to anything and it really, I think in terms of empathy, made us realize: oh, wait a second. But in terms of yeah, I think we're just going to try to make it fast for everyone. We don't have a whole lot of enhancements for people on quicker systems yet. Katie: When you were in Kenya, were there any things that were especially awful to try to load, like you're used to just being part of your everyday life? I'm just curious. Sophie: I remember reading Twitter, on the Twitter app and everything loaded except for the pictures and it made you realize just how often people supplement their tweets with pictures; I remember getting really frustrated about it. Katie: That's interesting. Sophie: But I didn't even really try to do a lot of stuff because it really didn't look very well. Same thing on Instagram; it's like sometimes this progressive loading thing; I would rather it not load at all than, oh, I see all of these people posted great pictures that I can't look at. I'd rather not know than… Katie: Or like the tweets having fomo, oh, you had a joke and I can't see the punch-line! Sophie: Exactly! Katie: That's really interesting because when we're just designing here in a bubble it's like, "well I think that would be fine for you to just know that it's there but not see it" but then when you're actually using it, you're like: no, this sucks. Sophie: Yeah, it's like actively frustrating. Tim: How often do you get to Kenya? Sophie: I'm new to the company; I've only been here since the beginning of the year but I think they do a retreat every year but not necessarily always in Kenya; I think every other year it's in Kenya. And I think other people on the team, it depends, we'll do these what we call Hit Team Meetings because everyone is remote and then mini-teams will get together and all work together for a week so those have been all over the place since people live on opposite ends of the world, depending on who's meeting they usually choose a place that is fairly central for everyone to get to. Katie: We'll start to have a list of sites, Sophie, how much is this really crappy, wherever you end up going… Sophie: How long does this take? Katie: Look it up and tell me how much it sucks. Sophie: It is cool to have people on the team everywhere for that reason. Tim: Sure, I bet that gives you a really nice overall picture of a whole bunch of different landscapes from a technical perspective. Sophie: Yeah. Katie: I know, I didn't prepare a list of questions like I should have! Tim: It's all right, I'm actually having a lot of fun just going off the cuff on this, knowing almost nothing. I did a little bit of research and I had heard of Ushahidi from this big fat book about mobile on a global scale that was put out a couple of years ago. Sophie: That's cool. What was that book? Tim: It's called Global Mobile. It's six hundred pages and each chapter is written by a different author on a different topic and I think Ushahidi came up twice… Sophie: Oh, that's awesome. Tim: …in the book. Sophie: Do you know what they referenced or what it was…. Tim: One was just talking about how…I don't remember one of the references in much detail. The other one I know that they were talking about a variety of different mobile technological solutions that were out there; I think they were focused primarily on Africa in that chapter or similar areas and they were talking about the different services that are making use of technologies that we might consider a little bit more simple, but they're doing really powerful things with it and so I think that they were focused on the SMS aspect, if I remember right. Sophie: Yeah, it's been definitely challenging, but also interesting that designing a product that is not used for one specific thing; it's very much user-focused and people will download it and decide how they use it, so it's been a challenge to design for that and to keep it well designed but also really, really flexible. Tim: Which is why I guess it's so important I guess that you are getting a chance to experience at least a little bit every once in a while because everybody talks about front-end design perspective, from a development perspective, how important it is to put yourself in your user's shoes and when you're talking about what Ushahidi is dealing with, and it's not just the devices or the browser or the connections: it's the situations; it's just so hard. It's so hard to put yourself in those sorts of shoes and understand what it must feel like to use the application or the site in those sorts of scenarios; that's such a huge challenge. Sophie: Yeah, there's no way that, well it sounds selfish saying it, but hopefully there's no way I would ever actually be able to experience that but I think that is why we have such a strong and valuable user advocacy team so that they can really communicate with them when people are in those situations and as they're using it in those situations. Tim: Do you get feedback from the users that are pertaining directly to things like how quickly they're able to report something or how quickly they're able to get access to the data that's been reported, in terms of it takes too long sort of a thing, not just a usability thing but from a performance perspective? Sophie: We haven't. Or not that I know of. Tim: Well, maybe that means you're doing an awesome job! Sophie: We'll see. It's also tough because the new version is yet to be used on a wide…by a lot of people, so we'll see, but it is great because we have the product is also open source, so we have a lot of community submissions and ideas so this is again the first time I've worked on something like that where I'll just be in my normal task list that we use internally as a team and I will get one from…I'm in Katmandu and this thing is not working; can you add this? So it is really cool to see that people care about improving the product. Tim: That's awesome. Katie: Is there anything that you've learned from going through this process and being hit with all of these pretty heavy design constraints that are just, oh man, there's no way I can ignore that. Has that changed your view on design, even outside of this product in particular? Sophie: I think that this has, compared to how I used to design, I'm keeping things a lot more simple, not even necessarily visually; visually as well but also just in how they work and not trying to dictate how something should work. Oftentimes we'll, with other people in my design team or sometimes with our developers, we'll discuss how something, spend hours doing flows and then just realizing, why don't we just let people do what they want to do and take a step back and not define so much how this should be used, so I think just the fact that so many different people are using it for different ways, I've found that it's often best to leave things open and then to not over-complicate them. Katie: Is that kind of freeing? Sophie: Errr….it's been difficult because I'm so used to not being like that. But yeah, kind of. For me as a designer it's been kind of hard to let go of control. Katie: Yeah, that's usually I think our downfall as designers is wanting to control everything and that's kind of a big part about embracing performance too: it just sounds boring to design for performance, even though it's not and it's just like anything else. Sophie: Yeah, I think that I talked to ??? about this a long, long time ago and I remember it's stuck with me in terms of performance but also it's kind of user advocacy side of design, which is that it's not in conflict with the design; you shouldn't think of performance as taking away from visual design but it's just a piece of design so it's just another aspect of UX and if it loads faster, then that'll make the design better. Katie; It means you did your job well! Sophie. Yeah, exactly. Tim: At the end of the day it's about, especially in your case, but at the end of the day it's really about how quickly can the people using the site or the application get the task done that they came to the site to do and so that makes performance comes right up front and center along with any other bit of the process really, information architecture, clear content structure and good visual design; it all contributes. Sophie: That's what design is, right? Getting people to be able to do what they want as easily as possible. Katie: Is this something that you were thinking about before having these experiences in these other parts of the world, or was that the eye-opener of, oh-whoa, my designs should encapsulate this? Sophie: Yeah, I think it's always something theoretically that I could be like, your designs have to load really fast, of course, but selfishly I've always wanted them to look really cool or try out some latest thing that's trending on the web. So I think it's helped me step out and realize I'm not designing this for me. If I want to try something, I can just do it on my own site. Katie: So, I'm wondering if that's maybe the first step for designers that are not wanting to think about it… Sophie: Make them design something for someone in crisis. Katie: Yeah! Sophie: At an agency, every junior designer has to design for… Tim: Oh man! Sophie: …life or death situations. Katie: It's part of the interview process, you need to whiteboard a crisis design. Sophie: Yeah! Tim: Talk about no pressure right off the gate, that's what you're dealing with! Sophie: Have either of you seen Eric Meyer's presentation? Tim: I have not, but I've heard it's excellent. Sophie: I really want to. Katie: I want to see it as well. Sophie: It sounds really… Katie: Everything you are talking about is making we think of that. Sophie: I would really, really love to hear, I don't know if he would…he could be a good guest on the podcast just to talk about his experience. Tim: Yeah, I'd love to talk to Eric. I've heard the presentation is just fantastic but I haven't had a chance to catch it live. I don't know if it's recorded or not anywhere but if so, I haven't seen it. Katie; I think if any of you want come hang out in Ohio, I believe I would have to double-check, but I think he's giving that Rustbelt Refresh in Cleveland in September. Tim: I do like that conference. I did that last year, it's a lot of fun. Katie: So, you want to come hang out in Ohio and see it? Tim: Sunny Cleveland! Katie: Where the lake caught on fire! Sophie: Oh my God! Tim: I don't think I heard this. Katie; I think it was before I ever lived in Ohio, ten or so years ago. It may have been the river, it may have been the lake, I can't remember. One of them was so polluted that it caught on fire at some point. (45:11) Tim: That sounds a lovely! Sophie: That's terrifying! Tim: My only knowledge of Cleveland, which I think is probably upsetting and insulting to all people who live in Cleveland… Katie: Drew Carey Tim: Yep. So, I apologize for that! Sophie: I've been to Cleveland; I spent two weeks in Cleveland. Katie: What? Sophie: I was going through, you know, being young and wanting to work for Obama during the election but even then, I don't know what's in Cleveland, even after spending time there. Katie: I have been to Cleveland twice and I don't know. I live two hours from it; I couldn't tell you what's in Cleveland. Sophie: Really cheap houses if I remember; lots of empty, cheap houses! Katie: One time I tried out to be on The Price is Right this is when Drew Carey was the host and because I am really bad at being like, wooow, cookie-crazy person to be on The Price is Right, they interview every person that goes through the process and like, "why should we pick you?" and my only response was just like, "I'm from Ohio. Just like Drew. Cleveland Rocks, right?" Sophie: Certainly good for TV. Katie: Yeah, well, we'll talk about Ohio. Obviously I did not make it! Tim: That's sad! Sophie: There's still hope; you could try again. Tim: Don't give up on that. Katie: No, that was actually…. Sophie: Don't give up on your dreams. Tim: No, you've got to follow through. Katie: That was horrific; you're just like cattle being herded for six hours through this line as they interview every single person that goes in the thing, so if you're ever in LA and thinking, it would be fun to go on The Price is Right: it's not. Sophie: Think again! Katie: Sophie, you never did that when you lived there? Sophie: A lot of people I knew did. Katie: Did anyone ever get picked? Sophie: They did it…I grew up in LA and they filmed Jeopardy I think right next to my High School and they would do it as a fundraising thing where you would…they'd get a group things of tickets to Jeopardy and then the cheerleading squad or whoever would try to sell them individually. Katie: Whoa! Sophie: That's the closest I've gotten. Katie: Growing up in LA sounds wildly different from anywhere else! Was it? Sophie: We didn't have any lakes that lit on fire! Katie: Wasn't your High School the one from Grease? Sophie: Yep! Katie: Oh man. Sophie: And Party of Five. Is that what that show was called? Katie: Yeah. Tim: That's kinda cool. Katie: I'm more interested in Rydell High though. Sophie: I think they filmed it in partially different schools but the stadium was our stadium. Katie: The track where Danny's trying to be a jock and running around? Sophie: Yeah, yeah. Katie: Aw man, that's the worst part when Danny's trying to be a jock! Sophie: Wonder Years. Wonder Years, that's the block I grew up on. Katie: Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: Dang, you have Wonder Years, Alison has Dawson's Creek. Sophie: Dawson's Creek. Way before my time. Katie: I want to grow up on a teen drama! Sophie: The Yellow Brick Road was also the street, from the Wizard of Oz. Tim: Where was the Yellow Brick Road? Sophie: Before the houses were built, they filmed it on the street that my house was on. Tim: What? Sophie: And then years later, they had a reunion for all of the oompa-loompas that I accidentally walked on and I was sort of….what? Katie: Were they dressed up? Sophie: No. Tim: Wait, wait, wait…you just said oompa-loompas, but isn't that…that's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, right? Sophie: Not oompa-loompas. Munchkins! The Munchkins! Tim: I was like, wait a minute… Katie: Glad you got that 'cos I didn't! Sophie: I didn't either, I was like, this sounds right. Tim: Yeah, OK, I just wanted to clarify which movie it was. Sophie: Can we cut this out? We're going to get complaints from Little People of America organization. Tim: Yeah, that's fine. Actually we could use a few complaints. We haven't got many or any yet. Katie: Thanks for bringing it up. Now we're going to….well, if you're looking for feedback, let me tell you...you can lay off the chit-chat. Tim: We've gotten plenty, plenty of negative feedback and complaints so please don't bother sending those emails or letters. There, that should… Katie: I'm going to write you a strongly worded letter about your podcast! Tim: It happens. Sophie: This really went off the rails! Tim: It did, but you know what? That's cool. That's all right. I feel like… (50:03) Katie: It was getting really heavy, so you know we to lighten it up. Tim: It was, we had to lighten it up and I feel like it's kind of weird that we had gone this far without talking about Drew Carey so, you know, however many episodes we're into this and Drew Carey had never come up; seems wrong. Katie: Really? Sophie: Give us some Drew Carey facts, Katie! Katie: Actually, well I don't know any Drew Carey facts but I'm sure Tim has lots because that seems like that's your era of TV. Tim: I'm not that old, all right? Katie: Yeah, but Everybody Loves Raymond, you'll never… Tim: Yeah, I actually had…. Sophie: Are you Everybody? Tim: No, no. Am I? Sophie: Do you love Raymond? Tim: I do love Raymond; I do. It was a good show, all right? It was a good show. Under-appreciated by the current generation! Sophie: It was the most popular show ever at the time. Tim: It was really popular; really popular. Sophie: Did you just watch it on multiple TVs over and over again to up the ratings? Tim: Errr…. Katie: He had it going on every TV in the house, the whole day and night! Sophie: The syndication too so they're getting those checks, all from Tim! Katie: Tim loves Raymond! Sophie: New TV show! Tim: All right, all right; neither one of you are ever invited back on this podcast; even you, Katie. That's it, that's the end of it. I'm going to go start my own podcast where we're going to talk about Everybody Loves Raymond and The Drew Carey Show and things like that. Katie: Indiana Jones Tim: Indiana Jones, yep. This really did get off the rails. My gosh! Sophie: Yeah, feel weird going back to talking about crisis. Tim: So, well, you know, maybe we don't, there was a lot of really good, like Katie said, it was getting really serious and really awesome discussion, I think, around performance and it was really cool to hear somebody who is coming at it from that global perspective which, it's just not something that we commonly think about a lot, for most of us aren't dealing with on a day to day basis, so it's really interesting to have somebody come in and burst the bubble a little bit and give us a broader perspective. Katie: Yeah, it's great because I think like you said, Sophie, earlier: in theory everybody's like, it's nice and stuff and obviously we talk a lot about performance and everything and it's one of those things that I think everybody is like, yeah, yeah, in theory yeah, we want it to be fast because we don't want to be shamed by Twitter, but… Sophie: Other web designers! Katie: Yeah, basically. So it's great for you to come in here and give us the perspective of what that actually means and hopefully shed some light on that empathy. Sophie: Yeah, thank you for having me. Katie: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Tim: Going forward, it anybody wants to follow along and hear more about what Ushahidi's doing or about what you're doing, how do they do that? Sophie: For Ushahidi, I would recommend following Ushahidi on Twitter, ushahidi.com for a lot of information about all their different products and blogposts and then for me, my website is sophieshepherd.com Tim: Very cool. Katie: What about any social media that you may have because, I might be biased, but I think Sophie you have a pretty good account that's pretty funny! Sophie: My Twitter unfortunately is sophshepherd, because there's a British teenager named Sophie Shepherd who took that from me. So, don't follow her unless you want to hear a lot of complaining about tests and boyfriends. Katie: Do you follow her? Sophie: Occasionally! Then I get too mad about it and then I think, what if they think it's me? Katie: Is she also blonde and kind of looks like you? Sophie: Yeah, I've sent her a message; she does kind of. I sent her a message on Facebook once and she went, what are you freak? And then that was it. Katie; Really? Sophie: Yep. Katie: She called you a freak? Sophie: Yeah. I'll put a screenshot in our speaker notes! Katie: OK, well follow the real Sophie Shepherd then. Sophie: Yep. Tim: Well, thank you and we'll definitely have to have you on again to discuss because I feel like there's a lot more we could get into in terms of Drew Carey and Ray Romano, so in a future episode. Katie: You can do that on your separate…Everyone Loves Ray. Tim: And Tim Loves Raymond. Yeah, that's good. It'll be the initial episode. Sophie:: Tim and Ray. All right. Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thanks; bye. Katie: Thanks. Bye. Tim: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Path to Performance podcast. You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes or on our site pathtoperf.com; you can also follow along on Twitter @pathtoperf. We'd love to hear what you thought so feel free to drop us a note on Twitter or leave a raving and overly kind review on iTunes. We like to read those. And if you'd like to talk about being a guest or sponsoring a future episode, feel free to email us at hello@pathtoperf.com

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