Podcasts about tim oh

Aufstieg ja, Aufstieg nein, Trainer raus, neuer Trainer rein: Turbulent ging es unmittelbar vor dem Saisonende beim 1. FC Köln zu. Am Ende wurde man doch Zweitligameister. Wer könnte über all das sowie die Feierlichkeiten danach besser sprechen als Effzeh-Kapitän Timo Hübers?

Aufstieg ja, Aufstieg nein, Trainer raus, neuer Trainer rein: Turbulent ging es unmittelbar vor dem Saisonende beim 1. FC Köln zu. Am Ende wurde man doch Zweitligameister. Wer könnte über all das sowie die Feierlichkeiten danach besser sprechen als Effzeh-Kapitän Timo Hübers?

Was war denn das bitte wieder für ein verrückter Spieltag? Will denn keiner aufsteigen? Der Effzeh hat zwar nur ein Pünktchen aus Fürth mitnehmen können. Viele Konkurrenten sind aber leer ausgegangen und so steht der Effzeh sogar als kleiner Gewinner dieses Spieltags da. Oder anders ausgedrückt: Der Geißbock ist mal wieder nur so hoch gesprungen wie er muss. Kann das bis ins Ziel gut gehen? Oder muss sich der Effzeh nicht vielmehr dringend steigern für die Rückkehr in die 1. Bundesliga? Und inwieweit ist das jetzt auch Nervensache? FC-Reporter Guido Ostrowski hat über das spannende Aufstiegsrennen mit Kapitän Timo Hübers gesprochen, der die vergangenen drei Spiele am TV verfolgen musste, jetzt aber kurz vor seinem Comeback steht...

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I speak with Tim Loney about his transition from airline industry professional to IT services entrepreneur. He shares his path from working at Continental Airlines through major mergers to establishing Solutions Information Systems, explaining how his experience with severance packages motivated his shift into entrepreneurship. We discuss the importance of business continuity planning, particularly for companies in hurricane-prone areas. Tim tells me about a Houston client whose facilities experienced severe flooding, highlighting how proper data recovery systems made a crucial difference in their ability to resume operations. Managing sensitive data is a key topic in our conversation, as Tim's company works with high-net-worth families, family office sectors, as well as companies in a variety of industries. He explains how word-of-mouth referrals have helped build trust with these clients who require careful handling of confidential information. The conversation turns to Tim's approach to business acquisition, where he focuses on purchasing IT firms from retiring owners. He describes his method of maintaining and growing these businesses post-purchase while sharing insights about how remote management tools have transformed IT services over the past 35 years.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed Tim's career evolution from working in the airline industry with Continental Airlines and American Express to establishing his own IT services firm, Solutions Information Systems, in Houston, Texas. Tim shared insights on how his managed IT services company has established a national presence by utilizing robust remote management tools and enterprise-class processes. We explored the importance of business continuity and rapid data recovery, highlighted by a story of a Houston-based company that faced severe flooding and required effective disaster recovery solutions. Tim's firm specializes in managing sensitive data for high-income families in construction and family office sectors, emphasizing the importance of trust and credibility built through word-of-mouth referrals. We discussed Tim's strategy for acquiring small businesses from retiring owners, focusing on enhancing the value of these businesses post-acquisition to ensure continued growth. Tim reflected on his entrepreneurial journey from modest beginnings, emphasizing the significance of diversifying income sources and the evolving importance of data protection in the digital age. The episode concluded with an exploration of the evolution of office communication over the last 35 years, showcasing the technological advancements that have redefined the IT industry.   Contact Details LinkedIn- Tim Loney (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sis-tloney/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Solutions Informations Systems GUEST Tim LoneyAbout Tim TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hey, good afternoon, Tim. Welcome to the podcast. Tim: Hi, Dave, good to see you. Dave: So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Tim: I'm in Houston, Texas, just north of Houston, in the Tomball area. Dave: Okay. Tim: Up in our corporate headquarters for the company. Dave: Okay, and now are you a native Houstonian. Tim: I am not. I'm not a native Houstonian. I should be probably classified as a native Houstonian because I've been here for about 35 years or more. Dave: Okay. Tim: But my background is I migrated from Canada the day before my 21st birthday. Dave: Oh, you did. Tim: Yeah, I became a permanent resident here in the United States. And what caused you to want to do that? The economy was pretty bad in Canada at that time and I was working for a commercial airline that had gone through a severance package and they released me with my severance package and I said you know, maybe I should try another country, not just a job, but maybe another country. Dave: Okay, so when you came to Houston then did you stay in the airline? Tim: business I did. I worked for one of the large international airlines called Continental Airlines at the time, which has since been acquired by United Airlines. Dave: You know, to this day I can still tell a legacy Continental flight crew from a legacy United flight crew. Very different cultures, very different cultures, or, as I say, the Continental folks are nice and the United folks are not so nice. Tim: Correct, yeah, I was there during the heavy competition years between Continental Airlines and United. I was actually there in the process with Continental Airlines during a very large merger and acquisition of multiple carriers. We acquired Frontier, people Express and New York Air and put them all under the umbrella of Continental Airlines. So I was there during those years. Dave: Okay, so were you there in the late 90s. So were you there in the late 90s. Tim: I was there from 1985 to 1990. Dave: Okay, yeah, I was only asking because I'd worked at an executive search firm in the late 90s and we worked with Continental during their like, go forward initiative or move forward initiative. Tim: Yep the go forward plan with Gordon Blithoon. He was Yep. Dave: Yep, that was it. So then you left the airline business. What did you decide to go do then? Tim: So I left the airline business and I went to work for one of the largest credit card companies in the world called American Express. Dave: Okay, I think I've heard of them. Tim: Yep and because I had a lot of automation knowledge of how the airlines work. From an automation standpoint, American Express was interested in me and understanding the automation behind the airlines and travel agency systems and they brought me in to be a systems person for the airlines to help them in kind of standardizing a lot of procedures within American Express. Dave: Okay, well, that sounds like a fun opportunity. Tim: Yeah, very rewarding, very educational. I learned so much during my term at American Express. Dave: Okay, but you decided that at some point you wanted to unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Tim: unfurl your wings and see what you could do on your own. Is that right? Yeah, you know now that I look back at it. You know I was. I grew up in a family where you were encouraged to go work for a large organization and a big fortune 100 firm, and through your entire life, and leave with a gold Rolex watch and have a great retirement plan. Dave: Yeah. Tim: But as I followed that path, I found myself continuing to get severance packages over and in my experience with the Fortune 100s I received three or four severance packages and those packages kind of educated me on that. It was maybe not the right gig for me and, you know, I was smart enough to be able to exit out of the Fortune 100s and do something on my own, and that's when I decided to start my organization. Dave: Okay, and what's your company called? Tim: So my company is Solutions Information Systems Solutions IS to abbreviate it and we are a managed service provider of IT services across the United States, managing about 175 customers across the US oh wow. Dave: That's interesting. I would have thought you'd have your clients would all be in the Houston area. I guess this newfangled internet thing lets you serve clients remotely. Is that, I guess, how it works? Tim: Yeah, yeah, and we can talk a little bit about what makes us so successful, but the ability to manage and monitor and remediate issues remotely has come a long ways over the years that I've been in IT. Now it's pretty much if you can't do that, why are you in this industry, right? So yeah, and you know it's a lot of like the entire work from home program that the whole world has kind of moved to. We have that ability to do exactly all of that stuff, not only from our corporate headquarters, but remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do remotely as well. If one of our employees needs to work from home, they can do that as well. So it requires a massive tool set, and I'll refer probably to our tool set a lot, because that's what makes us successful, right Is the tool set that I've been able to put together and build a toolbox full of tools to be able to manage, secure, maintain these infrastructures that we're responsible for. Dave: Well. Tim: I thought IT service firms were. Dave: I thought that was a commodity service. I thought they're all the same. Tim: Oh no, there's quite a bit of difference in how these managed service providers operate and I'll tell you, I would consider us probably in the top 100 nationally and probably the top three in our region of service providers, and the reason I kind of give us that grade and that's a grade that I've given us is that we've been at this for 25 years. I started this practice 25 years ago. I started this practice 25 years ago and over those 25 years I not only brought in enterprise class processes and procedures from my 10 years at American Express, but I've improved upon those processes and procedures over those 25 years. Dave: And we continue to improve on those processes. Okay. Well, what? Yeah, I'm guessing that you're. The clients tend to stay with you for a pretty long time. Is that like until they sell or go out of business or some significant event occurs? Absolutely. Tim: Yeah, and that and that's the type of client that we want to have in our portfolio, right? This is not a consumable product that you go and buy once and go away this is a partnership with our customers. Dave: It really is. Tim: You have to think about the IT infrastructure of any business out there. It's number one, a foundational piece of the business, and it is an instrumental piece in continuing to do business right. A lot of conversations I have are around data protection and security, and that's a lot of what we do right Is how do we protect the data that the customer has and how do we make sure that it remains secure and that nobody compromises that data or extracts that data or modifies that data that's on their infrastructure. Dave: Okay, and I'm guessing you're not trying to be the low-cost provider. Tim: We are not the low-cost provider. I wouldn't say we're the most expensive organization out there, but we are in the higher side, and the reason that we're the higher side is we bring a huge value to an organization. There is a lot of components within the IT support model that our lower competitors don't provide or don't understand, and those are the weaknesses within an organization that will cost them considerable damage to an organization if they get exposed right. Dave: Yeah. Tim: And then kind of go through those if you want to cover some of that stuff. Like let's just give an example of a business continuity plan right. If a company doesn't have a business continuity plan, that should be something that they should have in place, and they should have worked with their IT service provider or internal IT team to make sure that they've got a business continuity plan. If they don't, when an event happens, it's a total dumpster fire right, because they don't know what to do and they're very disorganized and it takes them an extremely long time to be able to recover, if they recover at all. So that's one example. Another example is compliance. There's a lot of compliance that's out there and that compliance is in place for a reason. Compliance is in there because somehow something got compromised and this is a compliance requirement that you now have to be in compliance with. It may be an access control compliance thing. It might be a reporting compliance to a legal agency. Dave: So talk to me about the first thing you refer to as the disaster recovery plan or the disaster recovery and business continuity. Okay, so my listeners love stories, so could you give me an example, like of one of your clients you know anonymously, that maybe went through a situation or maybe a company who was not a client but after they had an issue they hired. You guys give us a sense of like the elements of a really good you know continuity plan. Tim: Sure. So I'll give you an example. I had a neighbor that was in my neighborhood that you know. We would see each other at the neighborhood community pool. Our kids would play together, you know weren't real close to them. But you know you get into the conversation of having hey, what do you do by? The way, and you know, I told him I ran a managed service provider, an IT service firm, and we manage customer networks and we keep them secure. Dave: And he goes oh, okay, okay, Well, we got a guy. Tim: We got a guy he's good, he's been with me for five years. At that point, and you know, and wow, that's great. Well, if we need anything we'll call you, right, the conversation went away and that was about 15 years later. So the guy had been working for him for 20 years managing his stuff, managing his infrastructure, managing his backups, making sure again going back to data protection and security making sure that everything was safe and secure and we could recover it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up it. Well, lo and behold, 20 years later he calls me up, not him, but his wife calls me up, and his wife, you know, worked in the business for a period of time but it exited out. She called me up. She said by the way, I still have your cell phone number. I'm wondering if you're still doing IT, was their question. Dave: Okay. Tim: And I returned back and I said absolutely, I'm still doing IT. What's going on? She goes well. He was afraid to call you because he's embarrassed and we were in a very bad situation. This is a second generation builder supply company, probably doing annual revenue about $10 to $15 million in annual revenue. Dave: I said OK, what's going on? Tim: And she goes. Well, we've been ransomed and our data has been held for ransom and we don't know what to do. And our IT guy doesn't know what to do and he is really stressed out. And so the next step was is like well, I can jump in and I can help you. Let me know if you need my assistance. But these type of scenarios we've worked with before and we know how to be able to either negotiate with the criminals and negotiate the ransom to a point where you can actually pay it. If that's your only option, that's your worst option. But if we can recover your data from some sort of backup, we can go through the recovery process. Kind of summarize it we spent that particular client was not a client at the time and so they didn't have any of our backup or recovery procedures in place. They didn't have any kind of policy in place. They didn't have retention policies, they didn't have off-site backups. They had a lot of things. They didn't have offsite backups. They had a lot of things that were missing in that internal IT person's procedure. So what happened was is we came in and we immediately got on site and determined that they were using tape backup, and this is like way tape backup had expired like a long time ago. They had tape backup, they had ancient equipment, it was really. They obviously had put no money investment into their IT. Okay, the recovery for that client was about a week and a half and we were able to recover about 90% of their data. So it comes down to what we call RTO or recovery time objective. The recovery time objective is how long will it take us to recover your network based on our backup and recovery procedures? That particular customer we were able to get back up. Like I said, it was an extended period of time that they were out and they weren't able to do stuff. They were writing sales orders on paper and going back to a paper process. So they could continue their business, but we did get them back up and operational. We got them recovered and they became a customer and today we run very successful trials of the recovery system, as well as continue to make sure that their data is protected and secure. Dave: Did they end up paying the ransom they? Did not Because you got them close enough to 100%. Tim: We got them close enough where they had physical paper backup of the information that they were able to put back into the system. Dave: Okay, now help me understand the other end of that spectrum with somebody who was a current client that something like that happened to, and what was the difference as far as how long it took before you had them up and running? Tim: Well, you know, our current clients knock on wood have not experienced that. Dave: Because they've got a tighter IT infrastructure. Tim: Right, we've got the security and controls and again going back to the tool set to detect and have early detection of these type of events before they happen. So we have the security operations center that is constantly monitoring the security of the networks and the access to the networks and they look for anything that's kind of out of order. Dave: When something's out of order. Tim: then we identify it. We either isolate that system or we investigate it further and see is this a normal procedure that should be going or not? A normal procedure and a lot of this stuff is becoming part of AI now. Part of the AI capabilities is to be able to identify those things very early and stop them before they get any further into the network. So prevention is obviously a whole lot better than remediation. Right and that's what companies hire us to do is to prevent anything like that, a catastrophic event, from happening. Dave: Okay. Well, what about something that's more like a hurricane hits and wipes out their building? I assume you've had some kind of like natural disaster kind of thing where you've had to enact a continuity plan. Tim: Yep, yep, yep, absolutely so. Hurricanes here in the Gulf Coast of Texas, with the Gulf Coast of Texas being in a hurricane zone, we've had customers that their facilities have gone underwater. So one particular customer was on the south side of Houston and their facility went about five feet underwater. They, interestingly enough, had the server on a brick, thinking it was high enough. Well, it wasn't quite high enough, it was a foot off the ground, but it needed to be five feet off the ground. So that server went underwater and it was on when it went underwater. So it shorted out a lot of the components on the server, in which case, you know, they were like we don't know what to do In that scenario. We actually brought the hardware to our facility and we found out what component had failed and we replaced that component on the system and we were able to recover that system oh, wow, okay yeah, that's what we always want to do, is we want to try to use local recovery as much as possible just because of bandwidth or um, no, because of the time it takes to get the data transferred over from a replication process right. Gotcha If you're dealing with terabytes of data. You have to transfer that terabytes of data from either our data center facility or a cloud infrastructure, and that can be time consuming. That can be hours, if not days, depending upon the data. Okay, so some great stories. I mean, obviously we've had events happen. It's not uncommon for events to happen, but how we handle those events and how quickly we can recover from them is critical to a business to continue business for our customers and they can get back to business and be doing what they're doing selling things, manufacturing things, distributing things, whatever it is Okay. Dave: And are there any particular industries that you have, like you know, kind of particular expertise in where you know you would say that people in this industry might look out to you for yeah? Tim: There is. We're a very horizontal organization so we do have multiple industries that we play in. So we do play in the construction industry A lot of construction firms are in our portfolio, but also kind of an area where we've proven to have not only expertise in what we do but also the trust factor is in family offices. Dave: Oh, really Okay. Tim: Yeah, either high income families or ultra high income families. Obviously the privacy of those organizations, the privacy of the families, absolutely critical, and then the data that they're working with has high confidentiality. So, you know again, if that information was to leak out of the network or leak out of the system, then it would be a serious issue. So we've dealt with some of the highest wealth families in the world, oh interesting. Yep Obviously can't name them, but some brands that you would know, some organizations that you would know. It's amazing when I look at our portfolio, the amount of business like when I'm driving around town and I see companies around town and I'm like been in that building, worked in that customer, handled that particular customer, things like that. So yeah, you know, it's our high income or ultra high income. Families are probably a good percentage of our business. Okay, because they have multiple entities that we can support, consistent across all of those entities. So it's very standardized the way we do our business and very proceduralized so it makes it easy for them to understand. They get a quarterly report that provides them with the details and data that they know what we did for them previously and then we also forecast with a forecasting budget in the October November timeframe to provide them with a forecast so they can budget for their future IT needs and know what they're going to need replaced in the future. Dave: Okay, so was this just a case? You happened to stumble across, you know one of these family offices and then you know they run in the same circles and we're just got around that you guys were the go-to folks. Tim: I will say it has helped right In the. You know, in that particular market referrals are a huge thing. Our first family office we did stumble across. We didn't know we were working with an entity, one of their businesses, and then we, you know, they introduced us to another piece of their business and then they introduced us to the family office. You know we're having troubles with, you know, my buddy, my other firm over here, and we'd like you to kind of help in that area. So that expanded out quite a bit. And you know, again, there couldn't be. Our organization has to be the most trusted organization as a vendor that any company is going to hire, right? Sure, because you have to think about the access to the data that we have. We have access to absolutely everything. We're the administrator of your network, right? We have access to your email account. We have access to your email account. We have access to your employees' email accounts. We have access to your data, your financial data, your payroll data, your bonus data, all of the data that's out there on the network we have full access to. So you have to trust our team to the utmost in order to keep that information private, and I always approach a customer with. We're here responsible to secure and maintain that data. We're not here to look at what that data is. We don't know what that data is. Okay. Dave: Well, that's interesting here. I thought I figured you picked up that first client when you were on your mega yacht at the Cannes Film Festival. It didn't work that way. Tim: Huh, no it didn't work that way. No, it didn't work that way. I don't have a mega yacht and I wasn't at the festival, so okay, okay, yeah, not that I don't enjoy that stuff. I do have a house over at tpc, sawgrass and the players club and I do enjoy the country club life. You know I probably have the least expensive house in the neighborhood but I do enjoy the life. Dave: So nice, nice, I like it. So what do your clients tell you that makes your firm unique, like folks that have moved from another firm to yours, then they've been with you a while and I imagine you'll have a conversation hey, how's it going from your end? Are we meeting your expectations? I imagine you have conversations like that. What are they? What are? Are there any common themes? When they end up comparing you to the prior provider, they had, or how does that go? Tim: Yeah, there's a couple of scenarios there on why customers come to us and leave their current service provider right. One of the biggest things that I found with a customer that may be using a smaller service provider is they are really good at the tech stuff. They're not good at the business or the accounting side of the business, sure. So there's a delay in billing or an inaccuracy in billing and it's all of a sudden they get a stack of invoices three months later for work that was performed that they have no idea whether it got performed or what, and so there's a huge problem with the office operations of those particular service providers. So there's a pain point there and they're like I'm done, they come to me and they go, I'm done, this guy doesn't bill me. And then he bills me all at once, and then I got to try and back that information back into my financials and it totally screws up my forecast and my monthly reporting. So that's one reason that customers come to us. The other one is they don't get a response or the response is like unpredictable. So when they call in, they may get the guy right away, they may get the person like return their call the next day or three days later, so response time is really huge. I have a service desk here that is operated 24 hours a day, so our first level response is within minutes. So if you call my office, you'll get a response within minutes. If not on the first ring, it'll probably be the second or third ring. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, very rarely does any of our calls sit on hold or back up in the queue, so that's one way that customers come to us. The other way that customers come to us is that we have acquired eight other companies in the past 25 years. Dave: Oh, wow. Tim: Yeah, we completed our last acquisition in 2024. And we've gone out and found other service providers that may be struggling. They may not have the right business acumen to be able to run the business, so they're either marginally making money or they're losing money because they don't have the standard operating procedures that we have in place and the true business acumen to be able to run the service as a company. They've got customers, they're doing the work, they're getting paid, but they're not profitable. So we end up with firms like that that have come in through acquisitions. Dave: So yeah, I can see that and that's probably where your American Express background was helpful. Right Because you've had exposure to, you know, enterprise grade operations billing HR. Right operations billing HR right To where? Because American Express strikes me as just a well-run, well-oiled machine? Tim: Absolutely yeah, and I will say yeah, I will give them credit for that. You know it was a great run over there for 10 years and I learned not only about you know my job role and continuing to build on my experience in my job role, but how a company operates from a branding perspective, in branding your organization and keeping that brand consistent, but also in standard operating procedures and standardized deployment of systems. Right. I always refer back to not only my American Express days but the Southwest Airline days of standardization. If you can standardize the particular piece of your business that you're running, then it makes it so much easier. So we have standard software applications that we put out from a security tool set. We have standard equipment that we sell out to our customers, all on the Dell platform. My team is trained on the Dell hardware. They're trained on the tools that we use. The security tools, the management tools and all of those things integrate together to make a successful business. Dave: And again it goes back to enterprise level policies and procedures and way things that are, you know, repeating things that are successful you know, repeating things that are successful, okay Well, it sounds like like the first two parts of your success just seem mind blowing to me how you thought of this. But answer the phone when clients call and invoice timely Wow, I mean that's, that's quite a that's quite as. I mean I can't believe, to be honest, that you shared that secret sauce with me. I mean, my goodness, I mean that's. If you're not careful, there'll be other companies will start answering the phone and invoicing timely with that, you know inside knowledge. Tim: Yeah, I hope that we can improve the rest of the service providers out there, right. Dave: Sure. Tim: Competition is good. I like competition. It keeps us going. It gives us something to work towards as well. Dave: Yeah, so you talked a bit about some of the acquisitions and it sounds like you're kind of in a place where you're always open to the right acquisition. What are kind of the ideal characteristics of like the ideal acquisition? I'm guessing you're not going to try to acquire like E&Y's consulting group. I'm guessing you're looking for smaller operations than that. Tim: Yeah for sure you know. So an organization, the organizations we have acquired, have been anywhere from a half a million dollars to two million dollars in revenue. Those organizations the owners may be getting older, they may be getting ready to retire and they're not sure what they want to do with their business. What they do know is that they don't want to continue to run it Right and that it's marginally. They're making the same amount of money or less than if they had a corporate job Right. So it's sad to see, because they love what they do right and they want to place their customers in with a firm that has a similar culture, that takes care of their customers and really make sure that they're doing the right thing for their customers. So a firm that might be in a half million dollars to two million dollars in annual revenue, or the firm might be a five employee firm or smaller, and that they're getting to that point where they're kind of tired of running the organization and they'd like to transfer. They've taken care of their customers over the years and they've made relationships with those customers over the years and they like to put them with an organization that will take care of those customers and make it a seamless transition for the customer base sure, and I bet, I bet these sellers would probably be shocked if they were able to come in and look at the finances of their business like two years after you've acquired it. Dave: Right, because I'm guessing? Tim: Historically, yes, I will tell you, in probably at least half of those transactions that we've done in the either 12-month or 24-month payout period, they've made more money in that 12-month or 24-month period than they've made in the last three to four years. Dave: Oh, because that earn out ends up being a function of how much you bill over those 12 to 20. And you dramatically increase the revenues, so they're automatically getting participation in that. Absolutely. If they'd known that they would have sold to you 20 years earlier. They just wanted to work for you had their payout and then just become an employee. Right, they want to come out way ahead. Exactly, yeah. Tim: Yeah, now it's really good to see that. I mean, you know, that's one of the things that my competitors don't do. They try to come in and offer this ridiculous number for a business and then the earn out. They beat them up on the earn out and end up with anything. They end up with an initial payment and then maybe they'll get an earn out, maybe they they'll get an earn out, maybe they won't get an earn out, but they're going to tell them how horrible their organization was and how bad the customer base was and how it's not profitable and you know, it's just not how I do business. Dave: Yeah, and I'm having done. Did you say eight acquisitions? Correct, yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now. That now you have the ability Correct? Yeah, I'm guessing you've done enough now that now you have the ability, the same way that I understand you know when Berkshire Hathaway acquires a at that same point. Now You've got enough success stories that you can point to those as another differentiator, right? Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We're not at the Berkshire Hathaway point, but we got a couple under our belt and a couple of examples that we can refer back to and have some validation around our acquisition process. Dave: Yeah, because I'm just like, as I'm just playing through some hypothetical numbers, like you know, if a company had, say and you don't have to confirm these, but say a company was doing half a million in revenue, the profit is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, is say you know 50 grand and you buy them, and it wouldn't surprise me if, like, two years later, you know that revenue number doubled and the profitability number like quintupled probably, and or you just you know dramatic increase. Just because you know I mean, quite frankly, you just have a better run business model but they had you're able to plug them in and so that's absolutely our goal. Tim: Yeah, and so your win isn't so much we like to see play out right. Dave: Yeah, and so your win isn't like other folks where you promise the moon and then you figure out all of these ways to not pay them. It sounds like your process is just like hey, because in your mind, being a strategic buyer, that business is worth way more to you. You know two years later, once you've done your magic to it, that business is worth way more and so you're okay paying them on an earn out, on a growing revenue number that maybe they didn't even contribute to, because at the end you know, as a I mean like on the front end you might pay, say you know, one times revenue, let's say just to pull a number out but by the time you get to the end of it, if the business is doubled and the profitability is quadrupled, you really ended up paying only one third or one half revenue. And so all of a sudden, whether you know found a way to squeeze them to where the imputed value you paid was one third annual billings or it was half of annual billings really doesn't matter, because the real value for you is like, year three after the earn out. You've got this great profitable book of business that you know you didn't pay much for in comparison to what it's worth two, three years later in your enterprise. Is that right that's? correct, yep, absolutely but the reason you didn't pay much, though, in in all honesty, was because the business wasn't very valuable. Tim: And it really wasn't right. Dave: Yeah, I mean they had owner value. Tim: Street value had a zero valuation on it right. Dave: Yeah, they had probably owner concentration risk. They may have had customer concentration risk, poor processes systems. You know the type of company that you know. There weren't people beating their door down to buy their because, effectively, you're just buying a job. If you bought that business, all right. How much do you pay for a job? Most people don't want to pay very much for a job. Now, what do you look for in an employee, just like you know the most techie person you can find. Is that really all that matters? Tim: No, it's not necessarily you know the most skilled technical guy out there, right? So one of the strategies that we have and maybe I shouldn't share that because my competitors may hear it, but we are a strong supporter of our veterans, so we have veterans that work in our organization. We're probably a 75 percent veteran organization. Dave: Oh, wow, ok yeah. Tim: Yeah, and we enjoy that. They come to us with technical skills and abilities but we build upon those we really do Right and we develop those particular individuals to be much better at what they do. But having our veterans on our team has been hugely successful from a reliability standpoint, as well as a dedication standpoint and the understanding to be able to follow orders as given, right Okay. So that's how we've been able to do that and our retention rate is extremely high. I would say that our culture is very good. We're very family oriented. We're very you know when work has to get done, work has to get done. But we also realize that the family comes first and there's family things that come in the way that need to be addressed. Right. You can't. Your kid gets sick. You have to go take care of your kid, you can't be at your job, right? Those kinds of things and being able to balance that. That was one of my challenges at American Express. I was a new father in my ninth year at American Express and I realized that, even though it was written in the book and preached on the values of the company, when it came time to actually exercise that it wasn't as flexible as I had hoped I was like you know. This is another reason I kind of need to get out. I need to raise my daughter and I need to, you know, and I plan to have other children. So family values and longevity of employees, it makes a huge difference you have to think about. If you have an IT guy in your organization and they're only there for a year or two years, they've gained a little bit of knowledge about your business and how it operates and what computer systems are, what systems and software you're using in your business. They get intellectual knowledge right that walks out the door when that employee leaves or you release that employee. Dave: Yeah. Tim: With maintaining our staffing. I've got people on my team that have been with us 15 plus years and they have a history of our customers that is like you can't buy that right. Sure, you've got that knowledge of that network, of when it was built, like we've built some of these companies, so we know it from day one and what we've done to different applications and how we've modified them over the years. So just having that knowledge be maintained with your service provider is huge, so, and we can go back and look at you know, oh, here's a ticket from 15 years ago that I worked, that I resolved this issue, wow. Dave: And how do you know? You know, cause it sounds like the company has been growing both organically and through acquisition. How do you know when it's time to hire? Do you wait till? Like people are working a hundred hours a week in complaining and quitting. Tim: Is that? Dave: the point you say oh geez, we probably should get somebody hired and we should probably hire in a hurry. The first person we come across Is that your growth strategy? Tim: for your people? No, definitely not, definitely not. So we have a lot of KPIs in the business that we can measure the performance of our organization, and mainly that's around resource utilization. Okay, so we have a lot of tools in our toolbox that give us an indication of when an employee is overloaded or when they have too much on their plate, so we can shuffle that within the business and be able to see who's got the workload and who doesn't have the workload, be able to move things around within the organization. But then we can also look at our utilization levels and, number one, make sure that we're profitable with those utilization levels but also staff appropriately to those utilization levels and know when it's time right. It's like okay, we acquired a company with five big customers and we didn't get any employees with it. Do we have the bandwidth or do we need to increase our staffing? So we really have a lot of KPIs around measuring that to make sure that we don't stress our existing resources and we balance it out that our people are profitable but they're not overworked. Dave: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And then how do your new employees come to you? Is it referrals from other employees mostly, or no, we do have. Tim: I sit on the board for one of the technical colleges and I use that technical college as our you know more or less recruiting platform. We find the best of the students. You know the kids that are shining. You know they kids that are shining. You know they're showing up on time for their classes, they're interested in developing their skills and they're really, you know, the top students in the tracks right Okay. Yeah, and then we recruit them out of there. We recruit them in at our first level, our entry level, on our service desk team and we build them up in our organization over a period of time, so lots of opportunity for them to grow once they come into our organization. Dave: Yeah, that sounds like a great way to bring new folks on. You can train them the way you want trained with your processes and systems. Tim: And then keep them right. Keep them you can give them a growth path and keep them so that they can be. They can get better at what they do, get a higher compensation, be successful in life. There's nothing makes me happier as an owner than to see an employee grow from where they came in the day they started with us to being successful in life. Buying a home buying a car, having a family, all of those kinds of things right, those are really important for me. They're kind of like energy for me to see a person develop over the course of their career with our organization. Dave: Some of my guests. When I ask them, like what's the most satisfying or gratifying part of the job, it seems to fall into two categories. It's either the satisfaction they get from serving the customer or the satisfaction they get from watching their team grow. It sounds like you're probably more on that watching the team grow and that and then they. I think it was Herb Keller that had the idea of take care of your employees, and your employees will take care of your customers Absolutely. Is that right, that your satisfaction comes more from taking care of the employees, and then the happy customers are just an expected outcome? Tim: Yeah, that is a result, right, absolutely. So you know, when I started started this organization, I started in the spare bedroom of my house. Oh okay, I had two analog phone lines. One was for my phone and the other one was a backup phone line, but it was also used for my dial-up internet to be able to help, oh wow, remote into into customers. Right, and looking back, I walk in now to our operations center and we have a pretty impressive organization and a pretty impressive facility that we own. And walking in now I'm like, holy crap, what the heck did I build? Dave: right that's awesome. That's super satisfying right, super yeah I can imagine well I cannot believe how the time is flying by. I always tell my guests it's like the fastest hour of their life is being on the podcast. Tim: How are we going to fill that hour, Dave? Dave: Yeah, I know. So I've got just two questions just to wrap up. If you had a time machine and could go back and give some advice to like your 25 or 30 year old self, what advice might you give yourself? Tim: Ooh, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What do I give myself? I probably would have started my organization sooner. Dave: Bingo. That's the answer that 90% of the people have. Tim: Yeah, I would have started my organization sooner. I needed that enterprise expertise, but I would have started it sooner. Dave: Sure, yeah, it's yeah, because the funny thing when you're an employee and if you follow the career path that your family suggested is actually they think it's a low risk, safe career path. But it's actually a high risk path because you have a customer concentration issue, meaning you have one customer, your employer and, as you learned three or four times that if they decide they don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. They don't need you anymore, you basically lose 100% of your income. So it's actually less risky to have you know, even if you're just doing like consulting and all yours, just like a contract employee working 10 hours a week for four different companies, doing whatever. I find that that's far less risky, because if one of the companies doesn't need you, then you know you've only lost a quarter of your revenue. Tim: Yeah, I call it a scenario of I get hired multiple times a month. I hope I never get fired, but occasionally I get fired. But it should have an impact. I like it Well. Dave: so here's my last question. So you're a naturalized Houstonian, like I, am Tex-Mex or barbecue. Tim: Ooh, I like both really well. But yeah, tex-mex thing. If I don't have Mexican at least once a week, I'm going through withdrawals okay, so Tex-Mex? Dave: yeah, now, one person answered that question. I borrowed this from somebody else. One person answered it. They told me about a Mexican restaurant that has great brisket and they make like brisket enchiladas and brisket tacos and brisket quesadillas and he said that was like the best of both worlds there. And I thought, boy, that sounds like it. Tim: Yeah, there's nothing better than a brisket taco, for sure. Dave: That is awesome, I make some of those myself. That is great. Well, hey, as we wrap up, is there anything? I did not ask you that you wish I had Tim. Tim: No, I'd like to close by saying I shared with my team today and I'm always trying to come up with something that I share with my team every day and today I came up with solutions as a defense system designed to protect the most critical assets of your business the data. I like to just kind of close with solutions I as a defense system designed to protect your most critical assets your data, think about think about if your business lost access to its data, regardless of the circumstance. If they lost access to the data, what would that do to your organization? That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from. That's what we protect from happening. Dave: Yeah, Charlie Munger talks about the number one key to recognizing a great business opportunity is finding a company who's riding a wave that's only going to grow and increase over time, Because really all they have to do is just stay on the wave. Well, that certainly has applied to you, right? Because 25 years ago you probably had some companies that said ah our data is not that important. You know, I've got a Rolodex with all my clients' phone number and email, and you know, so the importance of data has only increased during that time, right? Tim: Oh yeah, it's dramatically increased yeah. Dave: Well, it's also. Tim: Everybody trusts that data will be there when they're ready to use it. Dave: Yeah, well, and also the other fact is digitization right 25 years ago, most of their data may not have been digital, it may have been analog or paper or whatever, but now virtually everything is digitized, which makes the data even more important. Tim: I go back 35 years in this industry and when I go back and look at it, I replaced the inner office envelope. Oh yeah, people would type up a memo on a typewriter, put it in an inner office envelope and put whoever was going to and put it in their outbox and the mail guy would come by and pick it up. I replaced that guy. That's true? Dave: Well, that is awesome. Well, Tim, I really appreciate your time. This has really been fun and you've really given me kind of an insight into what makes a really well-run IT services firm operate. So I really appreciate your time. Tim: Yeah, I appreciate your time as well, Dave. Always good to chat with you and good to catch up and appreciate your time today as well. Thanks so much. Dave: All, right, yeah, you too. Special Guest: Tim Loney.

Berlin, Berlin, wir fahren nach Berlin… aber erst einmal an das Autobahnkreuz. Als Tabellenführer – keiner weiß wie – beenden wir diesen Spieltag und fragen uns, wie es Steffen Tigges in die Startelf schaffen könnte. Egal, denn gewonnen haben wir in Braunschweig trotzdem mit 2-1. Schlechter war nur noch Timo Hübers, der komplett neben sich stand und mit einer unnötigen Aktion die fünfte Gelbe kassierte und somit beim Spiel gegen Schalke fehlt. Doch bevor wir auf das Spiel schauen, begutachten wir die Neuzugänge der Wintertransferperiode und geben unsere Einschätzungen ab. Reicht es für den Aufstieg? Die nächsten Wochen werden wegweisend. Außerdem finden wir raus, wie das neue Duo der Schmunzelkrimireihe im ZDF heißen wird... Und dann wäre da echt das Vierteilfinale im Pokal. Man könnte es ja fast schon genießen, wenn es nicht Leverkusen wäre. Und wer weiß: Vielleicht streamen wir ja live… Egal wie: #kleinesDouble In diesem Sinne. Come on, FC! Chapter Marks: 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:52 Begrüßung 00:02:55 Sprachnachricht Raik 00:05:12: Aufstellung 00:15:10 Spielbericht Braunschweig - FC 00:41:10 Was machen Hübers? Und wer wird ihn ersetzen? 00:50:00 Deadline Day und Verpflichtungen FC Köln. Reicht der Kader? 01:48:25 Vorschau kommende Spiele Pokal & Liga 02:05:40 Saisonwette 02:11:15 Abschlussrunde Das Team TdH: * Denis (@kylennep) * Eric (@hibarian2) * Marco (@ruhrpott_hennes) * Saskia (@quarkbaellchen) Viel Spaß beim Hören! Den Podcast unterstützen: www.trotzdemhier.de/spenden Intromusik: Sascha Brinkmann Folgt uns auf BlueSky (/TrotzdemHier) und Twitch (/TrotzdemHierPodcast) und rezensiert uns bei iTunes & Co.

Doppelpass alleine? Vergiss es! Wurst ohne Senf? Nope. Und das Fest der Liebe ohne Gäste? Unmöglich. Deswegen werden Jonas und Fabian beim großen Weihnachtsgipfel gleich zwei Mal besucht. Im Gloria Theater in Köln empfangen die beiden Weihnachtsmänner vor 400 Zuschauern die lustig, komische Familientherapeutin Cordula Stratmann und FDP-Spaßgranate Dr. Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann. Während Cordula die Schlafis von ihren Engelmalkünsten überzeugt, geht es zwischen Fabian und Marie-Agnes direkt in den Infight. Da hätte selbst die Mediatorin Stratmann nichts ausrichten können, denn die beiden lassen keine Spitze aus und definitiv keine Pointe liegen. Dafür überrascht vielmehr der rheinische Intellekt des noch aktiven FC-Kapitäns Timo Hübers, der sich im Quiz als "Köln-Imi" bravourös gegen die Düsseldorferin MASZ schlägt. Eine Episode, die für TV-Lagerfeuerromantik-Gefühle bei den Schlafis sorgt. Viel Spaß mit diesem besinnlichen Stück Podcastgeschichte. EINE PRODUKTION VON FLUTLICHT-FILM IN ZUSAMMENARBEIT MIT KNACKER EINFACH. Alle Informationen zu unseren Werbepartnern findet ihr hier: www.linktr.ee/schlagundfertig

In today's episode of The Milk Check, we're joined by Tim the Dairy Farmer, a farmer, speaker and ag comedian. If you think dairy farming is no laughing matter, then you haven't met Tim. Tune in for a special episode of the podcast, where Tim and the Jacoby team discuss: Strong harvest likely leading to lower feed prices Could dairy heifer prices rival Black Angus prices in the near(ish) future? Could the milk price reach $30? Things you should never plan near the cow pasture Plus, learn how Tim got into the comedy biz and how he silences the hecklers. Don't miss this episode of The Milk Check with Tim the Dairy Farmer. Intro audio (with music): Welcome to the Milk Check, a TC Jacoby & Co podcast where we share market insights and analysis with dairy farmers in mind. Ted Jacoby II (T3): Welcome, everybody, to the Milk Check. This month we've got a very special episode, we have a special guest, Tim the Dairy Farmer is with us today. Tim is going to ask us what we think is going on with these dairy markets, and we're going to do our best to give him an answer, and we'll see where the conversation goes from there. Tim, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Tim the Dairy Farmer: I've been in the dairy business for 30-something years, taken my licks, started doing standup comedy as Tim the Dairy Farmer about 22 years ago, and I speak at agriculture events. I'm a standup comedian, I'm not a motivational speaker. I'm horrible at marketing myself there, Ted. So basically I'm a dairy farmer that does standup comedy, and they hire me to come to meetings, to wake up after guys like you talk. And here's another thing, this podcast is called the Milk Check, correct? T3: Yes. Tim: All right. This is how you know I'm a dairy farmer, y'all call it the Milk Check, I'm just happy my last milk check had a comma. T3: Well, that's why we call it the Milk Check, because we want to talk a little bit about markets and what's affected dairy farmers' milk checks. Hopefully most dairy farmers do have a comma right now because prices are halfway decent. But before we go to markets, Tim, I've got to ask, tell me about one of the most interesting agricultural events that you participated in. I'd love to hear a good story. Tim: Oh, man. I've got so many. It's not the good ones that you remember, it's the horrible ones. There's three shows, there's the one you planned to do, the one you do, and the one you wish on the drive home that you would have done. I've had all kinds of stuff go wrong. No, for the most part they're always fun. T3: All right. Josh White: So Tim, how often are you on the farm versus having to hit the road for comedy? Tim: I probably go off and do 30, 35 shows a year. Normally I fly out the night before and I'm back the day after. My brother's always been my biggest supporter, he covers while I'm gone. I couldn't have made it this far doing comedy without my brother's support, because we're partners in the dairy and he's always covered for me when I'm gone. T3: Where is the dairy located, Tim? Tim: Central Florida. We're actually over between Fort Myers and Tampa, where all the elderly people go to pass away, you take a right and that's where we're at. T3: When that hurricane came through Fort Myers last year, that affect you guys at all? Tim: No, it affected a few of my buddies. Nobody lost any cows, but barns were just crinkled up like aluminum foil and tossed around. I think over the years I've lost three barns to hurricanes. T3: Oh, really? Tim: Yeah. They tell you how it's rated for 80 mile an hour or whatever, and then when the tornado or the hurricane comes through it wads it up like a piece of paper and chucks it 100 yards. You're like, "Well, that wasn't rated right." Anyway. Go ahead, this is your podcast. T3: Tim, if you have a question to get the market discussion started, why don't you go ahead and shoot?

In today's episode of The Milk Check, we're joined by Tim the Dairy Farmer, a farmer, speaker and ag comedian. If you think dairy farming is no laughing matter, then you haven't met Tim. Tune in for a special episode of the podcast, where Tim and the Jacoby team discuss: Strong harvest likely leading to lower feed prices Could dairy heifer prices rival Black Angus prices in the near(ish) future? Could the milk price reach $30? Things you should never plan near the cow pasture Plus, learn how Tim got into the comedy biz and how he silences the hecklers. Don't miss this episode of The Milk Check with Tim the Dairy Farmer. Intro audio (with music): Welcome to the Milk Check, a TC Jacoby & Co podcast where we share market insights and analysis with dairy farmers in mind. Ted Jacoby II (T3): Welcome, everybody, to the Milk Check. This month we've got a very special episode, we have a special guest, Tim the Dairy Farmer is with us today. Tim is going to ask us what we think is going on with these dairy markets, and we're going to do our best to give him an answer, and we'll see where the conversation goes from there. Tim, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? Tim the Dairy Farmer: I've been in the dairy business for 30-something years, taken my licks, started doing standup comedy as Tim the Dairy Farmer about 22 years ago, and I speak at agriculture events. I'm a standup comedian, I'm not a motivational speaker. I'm horrible at marketing myself there, Ted. So basically I'm a dairy farmer that does standup comedy, and they hire me to come to meetings, to wake up after guys like you talk. And here's another thing, this podcast is called the Milk Check, correct? T3: Yes. Tim: All right. This is how you know I'm a dairy farmer, y'all call it the Milk Check, I'm just happy my last milk check had a comma. T3: Well, that's why we call it the Milk Check, because we want to talk a little bit about markets and what's affected dairy farmers' milk checks. Hopefully most dairy farmers do have a comma right now because prices are halfway decent. But before we go to markets, Tim, I've got to ask, tell me about one of the most interesting agricultural events that you participated in. I'd love to hear a good story. Tim: Oh, man. I've got so many. It's not the good ones that you remember, it's the horrible ones. There's three shows, there's the one you planned to do, the one you do, and the one you wish on the drive home that you would have done. I've had all kinds of stuff go wrong. No, for the most part they're always fun. T3: All right. Josh White: So Tim, how often are you on the farm versus having to hit the road for comedy? Tim: I probably go off and do 30, 35 shows a year. Normally I fly out the night before and I'm back the day after. My brother's always been my biggest supporter, he covers while I'm gone. I couldn't have made it this far doing comedy without my brother's support, because we're partners in the dairy and he's always covered for me when I'm gone. T3: Where is the dairy located, Tim? Tim: Central Florida. We're actually over between Fort Myers and Tampa, where all the elderly people go to pass away, you take a right and that's where we're at. T3: When that hurricane came through Fort Myers last year, that affect you guys at all? Tim: No, it affected a few of my buddies. Nobody lost any cows, but barns were just crinkled up like aluminum foil and tossed around. I think over the years I've lost three barns to hurricanes. T3: Oh, really? Tim: Yeah. They tell you how it's rated for 80 mile an hour or whatever, and then when the tornado or the hurricane comes through it wads it up like a piece of paper and chucks it 100 yards. You're like, "Well, that wasn't rated right." Anyway. Go ahead, this is your podcast. T3: Tim, if you have a question to get the market discussion started, why don't you go ahead and shoot?

This is Stargate SG1 For the First Time! From the creators of Babylon 5 For the First Time, Jeff Akin is watching this iconic show for the first time while Brent Allen, who has seen it at least 47 times, is watching for the first time for those sci-fi messages that hold a mirror up to society or show us how to be better human beings.The Tok'ra Parts 1 and 2 - Season 2, Episodes 11 and 12Visit https://www.babylon5first.com/ for more!This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: https://www.patreon.com/babylon5firstSpecial Thanks to all who support our show through Patreon, including: Executive Producers:Todd K, Terrafan, Kat, Todd J., Colin B, Jeffrey H., jal'Zha, Andrew, The Space Pope, Trekkie Trey the Trekker, Andrew B, Fabio K, Matt Ion, Snatcher42, DAG, Mr. Krosis, Rob B, ClupPro70, Commodore Trev, Peter S, Ron H, Mattie G, Stuart H, Martin S., Becky S, Timo H, Acesoldia, Starfury 5470, James H, Chris L, Ian M, NJRetiredLEO, Paul H, Suzanne E, Demi-DW, FellKnight, Calinicus, Neil M., Gregory C, Anthony P., Thomas M, James O, Frankie, Linnaeus, Kenny K, Max H, Joel T, Jack Kitchen, fcast17, Katerina K, Joey P, Duane B.Producers:Adam P.David B.Guy K.John K.framedKatFollow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/BabylonFirstVisit https://www.patreon.com/byenerds to join the Patreon for full, unedited videos and an incredible community.Support the Show.

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.This is it! The end of the road for Babylon 5. At least for now. Jeff and Brent try to decide if the best way to describe perfection is "Sleeping in Light." This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: https://www.patreon.com/babylon5firstSpecial Thanks to all who support our show through Patreon, including:Executive Producers:Todd K, Terrafan, Kat, Todd J., Colin B, Jeffrey H., jal'Zha, Andrew, The Space Pope, Trekkie Trey the Trekker, Andrew B, Fabio K, Matt Ion, Snatcher42, DAG, Mr. Krosis, Rob B, ClupPro70, Commodore Trev, Peter S, Ron H, Mattie G, Stuart H, Martin S., Becky S, Timo H, Acesoldia, Starfury 5470, James H, Chris L, Ian M, NJRetiredLEO, Paul H, Suzanne E, Demi-DW, FellKnight, Calinicus, Neil M., Gregory C, Anthony P., Thomas M, James O, Frankie, Linnaeus, Kenny K, Max H, Joel T, Jack Kitchen, fcast17, Katerina K, Joey P, Duane B.Producers:Adam P.David B.Guy K.John K.framedKatFollow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/BabylonFirstWebsite: https://www.babylon5first.com/All rights belong to the Prime Time Entertainment Network, WBTV, and TNT. No copyright infringement intended.Copyright Disclaimer, Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for 'fair use' for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.Visit https://www.patreon.com/babylon5first to join the Babylon 5 For the First Time Patreon. Support the Show.

This is Stargate SG1 For the First Time! From the creators of Babylon 5 For the First Time, Jeff Akin is watching this iconic show for the first time while Brent Allen, who has seen it at least 47 times, is watching for the first time for those sci-fi messages that hold a mirror up to society or show us how to be better human beings.Bane - Season 2, Episode 10Visit https://www.babylon5first.com/ for more!This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: https://www.patreon.com/babylon5firstSpecial Thanks to all who support our show through Patreon, including: Executive Producers:Todd K, Terrafan, Kat, Todd J., Colin B, Jeffrey H., jal'Zha, Andrew, The Space Pope, Trekkie Trey the Trekker, Andrew B, Fabio K, Matt Ion, Snatcher42, DAG, Mr. Krosis, Rob B, ClupPro70, Commodore Trev, Peter S, Ron H, Mattie G, Stuart H, Martin S., Becky S, Timo H, Acesoldia, Starfury 5470, James H, Chris L, Ian M, NJRetiredLEO, Paul H, Suzanne E, Demi-DW, FellKnight, Calinicus, Neil M., Gregory C, Anthony P., Thomas M, James O, Frankie, Linnaeus, Kenny K, Max H, Joel T, Jack Kitchen, fcast17, Katerina K, Joey P, Duane B.Producers:Adam P.David B.Guy K.John K.framedKatFollow us on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/BabylonFirstVisit https://www.patreon.com/byenerds to join the Patreon for full, unedited videos and an incredible community.Support the Show.

After taking a rather long break from producing podcast because we were rather pedantic about the quality of content we produce, we are finally back and we hope the efforts to tidy up the podcast version of the live show is a enjoyable as a podcast. This year we are doing things differently, in a good way. We invited Tim Oh back as a special guest to launch this new season with us. With confessions from real people with real encounters; and lots of funny banter amongst the hosts.

A little tale about finding happiness and being content with what you have. This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Would you believe that the great rhinoceros once had smooth skin? Find out what happened that caused the huge change in the rhino's skin in this delightful bedtime story. This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Have you discovered the wonderful world of Bum Bum Ba Loo? This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH RadioSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A reminder that comparing yourself to others can sometimes bring misery. This episode is brought to life by Carol Smith and produced by Tim Oh. Both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Why is it that different birds build different sorts of nests? Find out through this little tale! This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Would you believe that there was once a time when the camel had no hump? Let's find out what lead to the camel gaining his distinct hump.This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A story for the curious and perhaps, some answers too! This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH RadioSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Aesop's classic tale about the dangers of being haughty and proud. This episode is brought to life by Carol Smith and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A little girl's beloved doll goes missing in the meadow! Will she be able to find her? This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Wie viel hat ein Logistikdienstleister, der dir z.B. deine neue Couch nach Hause liefert, eigentlich mit IT zu tun? Das und wie Rhenus Logistics konkret durch Business Intelligence ihre weltweiten Operationen analysiert und optimiert, erfährst Du in der heutigen Folge von Timo Hüntler. Timo ist Team Lead Data Analytics Blue bei Rhenus und mittlerweile schon seit über 5 Jahren bei Rhenus Logistics und ist damit der ideal Ansprechpartner für unsere heutigen Fragen.

A story of the Dream King and his Fairies. This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH RadioSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Little Johnny discovers the true meaning of the New Year! This episode is brought to life by Carol Smith and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The age-old story of St. Nicholas, and what he gets up to on Christmas Eve. This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A tale of how Bertie, a forgetful little boy, learnt his lesson. This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The snowman that the little children have made has come alive in and off it goes on an adventure with the littlest child! This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A story about appreciation. This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH RadioSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is the story of The Gift of the Magi, A Christmas Story. It was written by O'Henry and has been adapted here by Stories to Grow. It presents the Theme of Selflessness which makes it a perfect holiday story. This episode is brought to life by Carol Smith and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How Jack witnessed a miracle grow before him. This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The little boy is too tired to get home! Gran has a stick horse that just might help with this. This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A tale of how size doesn't matter, but wits do! This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A tale of how there's no point in being wise when you don't heed your own advice. This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The wind is in a playful mood! Find out how it teases a little boy wearing his new hat. This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Schluss, aus, Geißbockheim! Timo Hübers empfängt Sven und Conni in Köln. Hübers ist Masterstudent, Hannover-Fan & ja, vor allem Stamm-Innenverteidiger des Bundesligisten aus der Domstadt. Und als wären das nicht schon genug Themen, wird diese Folge auch noch von Podcast-Trainer Steffen Baumgart gecrasht. Er kann's einfach nicht lassen... Viel Spaß! Von Sven Pistor /Timo Hübers.

How the Salamanders Saved the Day! This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH RadioSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What brings you happiness: Freedom or food? This story examines the value of freedom. This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's bedtime but a sleepy little boy refuses to go to bed! Will the Lovely Moon outside his window be able to help? This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A lesson in how treating others badly will in turn come back to you. This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH RadioSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A tale that shows how a person's strength can be measured in more ways than one. This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A sleeping boy is unable to wake up despite all his friends trying their hardest to wake him up! What will they do? This episode is brought to life by Lavinia Tan and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A lonely snowman learns how to make friends! This episode is brought to life by Carol Smith and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Lion's Share is an Idiomatic expression which now refers to the major share of something. This episode is brought to life by Angel Teo and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH RadioSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this Bonus Episode, Anne is joined by The National Association of Voice Actors co-founders, Tim Friedlander & Carin Gilfry. NAVA is a new association that aims to advocate and promote the advancement of the voice acting industry through action, education, inclusion, and benefits. The three discuss why & how NAVA came to be, what their specific goals are, and how voice actors can join. If all goes to plan, NAVA will be the first organization to offer health benefits to voice actors. Bosses, you definitely don't want to miss this! Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza. And today I am very excited to bring the founders of the National Association of Voice Actors or NAVA to the show, Mr. Tim Friedlander and Carin Gilfry. Welcome, guys, to the show. Thanks so much for joining me. Tim: Hello. Hello. Thanks for having us. Carin: Thanks for having us. We're excited. Anne: Well, I'm very excited to talk to you about this brand new initiative, which I think is only, what, a month or two old? Carin: Couple months. Yeah, a few months. Anne: So tell me, what is the National Association of Voice Actors? Tim: National Association of Voice Actors is a national association of voice actors. We made the title nice and simple to keep . It grew out of some groups that car and I have put together over the last, I started mine in 2014. I believe Carin, you were around the same time, 2016 or so? Carin: I think 2015. Yeah, something like that. Tim: Yeah. And these groups we have, uh, you have the voice actors of NYC. I have Gardner Street Voiceover Collective, various other groups I'm involved in. And over the years, we talk about business. We talk about how to get into the, into SAG AFTRA. We talk about what it means to go Fi-Core. We talk about various other different parts of the voiceover industry. Currently that conversation is around synthetic voices. So we're having that conversation in our groups as well. And we decided we wanna take that to a broader audience. And so we kind of took this off of Facebook and put this into a national group that we could offer education and support and financial support to on a much larger, much larger scale. Anne: I love that. Carin: In addition to that too, over the past few years, Tim and I have also, through our groups, been kind of creating emergency funds and donation funds for people in the voiceover industry, particularly during the pandemic. My group and Tim's various groups, we had emergency funds set up for people who lost their jobs during the pandemic, or who just needed extra money to pay bills or get a new microphone, 'cause theirs broke and they didn't have any money to do it. And so we were giving out payments to people, no questions asked without having a nonprofit. And so we thought that by forming a 501(c)(3), we would be able to do that in a much better way than just having a PayPal account and paying it out to people when they asked. Anne: Absolutely. Now it's membership driven. Is there a fee to join or can we join free? How is that working right now? Tim: Currently it's brand new and we have a membership committee that is going to be setting those standards for us on what that will be. Currently it's free to anybody who wants to join. And so there will always be a free membership tier that people can access the information. Definitely we wanna be a resource for people who are getting into the industry to find a trusted area for information. So we'll have a free tier that our membership committee will set for us. And then beyond that, there will be dues at some point, but we don't have that currently in place. Anne: Talk to me a little bit more about the resource-driven initiatives that you have. You mentioned before resources for the union or for Fi-Core for non-union people. What's that look like? Tim: Sure. We're currently calling it Pathways, different VO pathways that you have. And a lot of people think it's very black and white. It's either union or non-union. And in voiceover, for many of us who work in this industry know that it's very gray. There are non-jurisdictional jobs, which means it's not covered by a union contract. So what does non-jurisdictional even mean? What jobs are non-jurisdictional ,what can we work on? How do we join the union? If a voice actor wants to be in the union, what they need to do to get in that union? I was eligible for two years before I even know I could join the union. 'Cause I didn't know I worked under a contract that was a union contract. I didn't even know I worked under a contract. So that's just -- you know, I worked under an AFTRA contract for an audiobook that made me eligible. And two years later I was trying to get my eligibility and I was already set. I didn't know these things. And then also this concept that you can convert jobs. You can take a job that is currently non-union and convert that into a union job. So a lot of voice actors look at this concept of joining the union as having to give up all this work that I do in the non-union realm. And for a lot of people, that's not a tenable situation to be in, where you're gonna be giving up a massive amount of money, your entire living that you support your family with, to move into someplace where you may not even have access to auditions and jobs. So we are gonna show, we wanna provide that information on how can you navigate this industry. If I wanna go union, this is what I do. If I wanna go Fi-Core, this is what that means. If I wanna stay non-union, this is what it means. And the union is great when you can reach them. And their information is very solid when you can reach somebody over there, but they don't deal with voiceover specifically, and voiceover for everybody who knows is such a very unique niche aspect of what SAG AFTRA and the arts industry and community in general is, that we want something that's very specific to just voice actors. Anne: Very important. Carin: We also, we have an incredible advisory board of just people from literally every genre of work that there is in voiceover. We made a point of asking people from audiobooks and video games and commercials and TV narration, and all just across the spectrum of voiceover so that we have people advising NAVA on all of those different aspects. And we have people as part of our advisory board who are very important people in SAG AFTRA who are very pro-union and want everyone to join the union if possible. We also have people on our board who are Fi-Core and we have people on our board who are non-union. Our goal is to be voice actor first and to be as unbiased as we can be as a group and just provide accurate information out there for people to have, because I think SAG AFTRA is absolutely wonderful. But when I called and was trying to figure out whether I should join or go Fi-Core, I called them and I didn't feel like the information that I got about joining the union and converting work specifically -- they basically didn't tell me that I could convert work. And so I really thought that I was gonna have to give up every non-union job that I would book in the future. And it's mostly just because I think people are unaware that it's possible to do that. This group we hope is a resource for people with unbiased, accurate information. That's very voice actor forward. Anne: I think that's so important because I know there are so many questions when people get into the industry, like, what is the union and how do I become eligible for the union? Should I join the union? And it's always those questions that, you're right, the information has not been really readily available anywhere to find out that information, and it's complex. And so the different avenues are, I think each one of them has a special set of circumstances, and there are advantages and disadvantages to whichever way you decide. And I think having a resource to provide that information to voice talent is so very important for that. So that's a wonderful initiative, and especially things like -- I know that you've started something for healthcare or you're attempting to try to lobby for voice talent that, if they don't have healthcare, they can get it. Talk a little bit about that. Carin: Yes. Tim: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's something, you know, for anybody who is, those who are SAG AFTRA and have health insurance in SAG AFTRA, they know the benefits of having that access to phenomenal healthcare. And one of the things that we learned after forming this group that we did was that there is a possibility of providing healthcare for members of our association. And that is about the extent of the information though. It's about as far as we are in this, in this process. I started working on it before we actually had a group in this capacity. And I started in November of last year. I had been in discussions about possibly offering this for a year before that. And it was actually kind of put into motion of November of last year and is just for anybody who's dealt in healthcare, i's just a convoluted process of misinformation and different information and, and what information is accurate and what information is inaccurate and -- Carin: And changing what changing laws. Tim: Changing laws, yeah, exactly. Anne :Yeah. And it's such an important component for us as entrepreneurs, right, to have health insurance. I know we don't like to think about it, like we could ever need it, but I'll tell you, when you least expect it, you could really use that healthcare. And I know that first hand. And I was thankful that I was able to have healthcare, but it was through my spouse. So, and for those people that, that may not be an option, this is a wonderful initiative, and the best of luck with that. I think that's phenomenal. That's something that's very important. Tim: We look at it as, you know, I've, I've always thought of it as one of the things that can help advance people in their career. and it can help get you into that level where you are able to get union healthcare. It can get to that point. You know, the more work people can focus on -- I've always been somebody who in all my spare time, I personally don't wanna wait tables to support my career of being an artist. I wanna be an artist. Anne: Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. Tim: And I'm a musician all the time, and I want more people to have access to doing the art that they want to do, and love to do and make a living at it, and not have to stay in a job they don't wanna -- this is one of Carin's talking points that she brings up quite frequently is, you know, this, this concept of staying in a job you don't want to be in be just purely because you need the healthcare. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. And being able to have the income, right, coming in so that you can be confident in pursuing more work. And so I've always been, you know, a big proponent of have that little bundle of cash. And if you're spending that cash on something, when it goes wrong on healthcare, the whole thing kind of crumbles. And so I think it's important to have something like that put in place so that you can pursue your creative career and grow in it. Tim: We're just in the process of building that. So we just don't have, we don't have answers yet that are fully formed for us to give rates and to give who's gonna be covered and how it's gonna be covered, which is why we're here today talking about this. You need help from people to, you know, because -- Carin: We do have a plan of action. Anne: Yes. Let's hear the plan of action. I love it. Carin: Great. You can see, we have an infographic up on our website, which is navavoices.org. And you can see it's called, I think, the road to health insurance you'll see a little map on there. But basically the idea is we, as an association, have to come up with a pool of applicants who would apply for this health insurance. The health insurance companies wanna see who are these people, you know, what is their average age, where do they live, those kinds of questions. So we have a health insurance census, and we are hoping to get 800 to 1000 people to add their information to the census. Once we have that pool of applicants, that's when we can go to all the different health insurance companies and say, here we are, this is what we are. This is what we do. Our job is very low risk. We're not like construction workers, or even on camera actors have a more dangerous job than we do. We're literally sitting in a booth talking into a microphone. It's not very dangerous work. So this is who we are. They look at the full group and they say, okay, these are the rates. These are the plans that we can offer you. Then we choose which plans we think would best suit the needs of our members. And then during the open enrollment period this year, November and December, hopefully fingers crossed, if all goes, according to plan, we will have options for people to be able to purchase that health insurance, which will then start January of 2023. So the main thing right now is that we need as many voice actors who are interested in having this health insurance option to fill out the census. And also I should add that if you are on the census, you have the ability to purchase health insurance in November and December. If you're not on the census, you will not be able to purchase health insurance until the following year. Anne: So the next enrollment. Carin: Yeah, until the next enrollment. So, so if you have even like a little bit of interest in, maybe this is something that I might wanna consider, depending on what the rates are, fill out the census so that when we do get those plans and those rates, you will have the option to buy it if you want. Tim: Yep. And you can look at the compare rates when offers come around, and if it's not right for you, then there's no obligation to sign up on our plan. Carin: No obligation. Tim: But again to reiterate, if you aren't on the original census, and the rates come out and it looks like something viable you would want to get into, you wouldn't be able to join until the next open enrollment. So we definitely encourage everybody who is even just slightly and should want to compare rates. We have a question on there about "how interested are you, I'm just comparing rates," you can just check that section so we know that you're somebody who is just kicking the tires and just trying to compare rates. Anne: Fantastic. Carin: Just to clarify, you must be a voice actor in some capacity in order to be a member of NAVA and or qualify for this health insurance. So. Anne: Fulltime or part-time or in some capacity, paid jobs? Carin: Full-time, part-time doesn't matter, just in some capacity. Yeah. Paid jobs. We're working on what the vetting process is gonna be because we don't want it to be like an earning threshold. It's not gonna be like SAG AFTRA where you have to make 25,600 or whatever it is, almost $26,000 in union earnings to qualify for health insurance. It won't be like that. It will be like a vetting process where we'll see, oh, this person has a website. Oh, this person has a demo. Oh, this person has done a little bit of VO work. They qualify. Or, oh, this person has a profile on Voice123, they're probably doing some work as a voice actor. They qualify. And again, we don't know what that is yet, but it will be something like that, not an earning threshold. Tim: Yeah. And that kind goes in parallel with what the requirements are gonna be for the health plan. Like what level of connection does this group have to have between its members in order to show that they're part of a single group of association. So it all fluctuates, but we do, we have a membership committee who is handling that for us, and that we'll have something in the next, hopefully the next month or so that will, um, have some information on what different membership tiers will look like and what those dues will be and, and what the, what will be offered for those people who have different tiers. Anne: Fantastic. Now, as I look at the front page of your website, you have some lofty goals, which I really love, not only the health insurance that you just spoke about, but also you mentioned earlier financial assistance through scholarships and emergency funds. And I think that that's a really wonderful thing because prior to having this group put together, they were kind of all over the place. And I know at one point long ago, I offered scholarships through VO Peeps. And so since then there have been other groups that have offered scholarships. And of course there's the Brad Venable fund, which is amazing. Talk to us a little bit about what your plans are for that. I love having it in the central place. Tim: Yeah. You know, as I said, kind of some part of this started with us based on this financial aid that we were offering to some of our members in there and the kind of the foundation, what got the NAVA started in the early part of the year was we received a donation from Bev Standing and Rob Siglimpaglia after Bev's TikTok lawsuit was settled last year. They donated their GoFundMe money they had raised to the Brad Venable scholarship into that fund. And that became the foundation of what started NAVA. That allowed us to pay for the lawyers, pay for all of the incorporation, pay for the things that we needed. And also allowed us to put a decent amount of money aside into a basis for a fund which provided three full scholarships to VO Atlanta for three voice actors, which covered tickets, covered airfare, covered lodging, covered food for the entire duration of the time they were there. So we were able to cover all the expenses out of that fund. We also have been able to use that fund going forward to help some people, a little bit of money here and there. It's currently not public because we are still setting it up, and we have to wait until all of our final paperwork gets through for us to officially be fully sanctioned to do the things we wanna do. So currently it's on hold, but we will be able to take donations which will be tax deductible donations. So voice actors can donate to the group. We have a lot of people who over the years have just donated here and there. Somebody books a good job, and they turn around and donate a little bit of money to the fund just to help have our group. I think we've probably done $40 or $50,000 in the last 18 months to two years out of our group. Carin has done, you know, something similar along those lines. Carin: Yeah. Same, same number from my groups. Tim: Yeah. And a lot of voice actors, we all know, you know, $200 here and there sometimes is the difference between us getting through the weekend and not getting through the weekend or a client is late on paying or something doesn't come through. Or we do a lot of ACH. You know, we do direct bank transfer and your deposit gets made, but it's not gonna hit until Friday because it's a holiday. So sometimes just that $200 gets somebody through the weekend, gets somebody through the next 24 hours or the 48 hours until something come through, which we all know is small business owners. And as cash flow is tough sometimes, it's, those are the little things that help. And we help a lot of people in that little way that we wanna continue doing. Anne: Fantastic. Now you also have education and inclusion. So speak about education, resources. That's gonna be on your website? You're gonna also thinking of hosting classes maybe, or workshops or NAVA meetings that, uh, you would provide that? Carin: Yeah, I think we'll probably do a Zoom every month or so for our members about various topics, but also we are kind of partnering with different resources around the voiceover community that provide educational materials. So like GVAA for example, um, is -- Tim: VO peeps Carin: And VO peeps. Yes. Anne: VO Peeps, VO BOSS. Yeah. Okay. Carin: Yes, yes. And VO BOSS. Great. Anne: Thank you. Carin: No, but the GVAA rate guide is definitely something that we are fans of. And so that is part of our website, and SAG AFTRA has a lot of educational resources that I think people don't -- when they go to the website, it's not like totally 100% clear exactly where it is. So we can have links to those on our website. So people can just find a central place where you can go, where if you have a question, you can look up that information on our site, information on converting work, other things like that. Tim: Yeah. And there are lots, there's so many great coaches out there that we can, we want to help support and advocate for those who we know are trustworthy, who we know are great to work with, different people. And also I think Carin I've worked with most everybody in, in the Los Angeles area. I know who are some great people to work with, who personalities -- one of the great things, you know, a great coach, a great coach. If they're the great coach for you, some people work better with other people. And we know these things would help, help guide somebody into a great mentorship with a great coach or a great group of people who are offering classes and things along those lines. So that's kind of where we're looking at and promote. Anne: And the VORG is coming back. Tim: The VORG, the voiceover resource guide. Anne: The VORG. Carin: It's the VORG. Anne: I'm on the VO. Yeah. Tim: Voiceover resource guide goes to print. It's 4:30 on a Friday afternoon, hopefully tomorrow. And we go to print tomorrow. We have to. Anne: Wow. Tim: We're going out. Anne: That's incredible. The VORG was all there was back and see, now I'm gonna date myself. But the VORG was all, there was back, I wanna say in the eight, was it the 80s? It's the -- Tim: Voiceover industry's oldest publication since 1988. And actually up until about four years ago was the only printed publication in the industry. Anne: Yeah. Absolutely. And when I saw that was coming back, I was so excited to see that. Also now an online version as well, so absolutely. Recommending the best of the best in LA and New York and fantastic stuff. So, get your copy of the VORG. You can pre-order, right? Pre-order the printed copy, which, hey, who doesn't love, who doesn't love a good book? Tim: My stack of voiceover resource guides right here. So. Anne: Yeah, I was gonna say, do you have, I don't have one. I don't have one with me, but I do have one. So fantastic. Awesome. Talk a little bit about -- I know you mentioned this in your, in your meeting the other day, inclusion and diversity and how you support that. Carin: Yeah. So we are also partnering with kind of the people in the industry who have formed groups that are really interested in, in representative casting and authentic casting. And so Queer Vox and the PGM list are two groups that we are partnered with. Maria Pendolino is also starting a new group for disabled voice actors, which we will hopefully be able to be a part of. It's just about supporting all of our colleagues and supporting the voiceover industry and moving toward this authenticity and representation that I think we all are -- it's about time and Anne: Absolutely, absolutely. Carin: -- excited about. Yeah. So that's something that NAVA is supportive of. Anne: Oh, fantastic. Tim: And hopefully to be able to take that next step and be able to then educate and work with casting directors and productions on what this means to cast authentically earlier in the process, so it's not a, not an afterthought or something that's happening. Either when it's too late or when it becomes too difficult to find what's needed authentically. Anne: Well, congratulations guys. I mean, what a beautiful, wonderful initiative and resource for the community. Thank you so much on behalf of the BOSSes out there and everybody in the community for putting in the work. I know, again, I date myself, and I know how much work you're putting in, especially I had my own 501(c)(3) back in the day. So yeah. Good luck with that. And really thank you so much for everything that you're doing for the community. Tim: Oh, well, thank you. Carin: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us today. It's great to get the word out. And the VO BOSS is fantastic, and thank you for all the work you're doing -- Anne: Well, thank you. Carin: -- with all of your podcasts and information and all of that. It's just fantastic. So thanks for having us. Anne: Well, thank you. So that website, BOSSes, is navavoices.org. Any other links I need to be shooting out to people? Tim: That's our main link. Yep. Carin: The census is on the front page of the website. So if you wanna take the census, go there, click, and you're in. Tim: That's it. Carin: To the census. Anne: Awesome. Yes. All right. BOSSes. Sign the healthcare census and become a member now. All right, well, thanks again, guys. I'd like to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, 100 Voices Who Care. You guys can have an opportunity to have your voice make a difference. You can find out more at 100voiceswhocare.org. And of course, to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect like a BOSS and find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week. Thanks so much for joining us this week, and we'll see you next week. Bye. Tim: Bye-bye. Carin: Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

A tale of how one's fear may change one's perspective. This episode is brought to life by Charmaine Phua and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The magical story of how rainbows came to be. This episode is brought to life by Desiree Lai and produced by Tim Oh, both of whom are DJs of SPH Radio.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

About TimTim's tech career spans over 20 years through various sectors. Tim's initial journey into tech started as a US Marine. Later, he left government contracting for the private sector, working both in large corporate environments and in small startups. While working in the private sector, he honed his skills in systems administration and operations for large Unix-based datastores.Today, Tim leverages his years in operations, DevOps, and Site Reliability Engineering to advise and consult with clients in his current role. Tim is also a father of five children, as well as a competitive Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. Currently, he is the reigning American National and 3-time Pan American Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu champion in his division.Links Referenced:Twitter: https://twitter.com/elchefe TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate. Is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other; which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability: it's more than just hipster monitoring.Corey: I come bearing ill tidings. Developers are responsible for more than ever these days. Not just the code that they write, but also the containers and the cloud infrastructure that their apps run on. Because serverless means it's still somebody's problem. And a big part of that responsibility is app security from code to cloud. And that's where our friend Snyk comes in. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets developers where they are - Finding and fixing vulnerabilities right from the CLI, IDEs, Repos, and Pipelines. Snyk integrates seamlessly with AWS offerings like code pipeline, EKS, ECR, and more! As well as things you're actually likely to be using. Deploy on AWS, secure with Snyk. Learn more at Snyk.co/scream That's S-N-Y-K.co/screamCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A bit of a sad episode Today. I am joined by Duckbill Group principal cloud economist, Tim Banks, but by the time this publishes, he will have left the Duckbill nest, as it were. Tim, thank you for joining me, and can I just start by saying, this is sad?Tim: It is. I have really enjoyed being with Duckbill and I will never forget that message you sent me. It's like, “Hey, would you like to do this?” And I was like, “Boy would I.” It's been a fantastic ride and I have enjoyed working with a friend. And I'm glad that we remain friends to this day and always will be, so far as I can tell.Corey: Yes, yes. What you can't see while recording this, I'm actually sitting in the same room as Tim with a weapon pointed at him to make sure that he stays exactly on message. Yeah, I kid. There's been a lot that's happened over the last year. We only got to spend time together in person once at re:Invent. I think because re:Invent is such a blur for me, I don't remember who the hell I talk to.Someone can walk up and say, “Oh yeah, we met at re:Invent,” and I'll nod and say, “Oh yeah,” and I will have no recollection of that whatsoever. But you don't argue with people. But I do distinctly remember hanging out with you there. But since then, it's been a purely distributed company, purely distributed work.Tim: Yeah, that's the only time I've seen you since I've worked here. It's the only time I met Mike. But it's weird because it's like, someone you work with you see every day virtually and talk to, and then you actually get to, like, IRL them and like, “Oh, wow. I had all these, kind of, conceptions of, you know, what you are or who you are as a person, and then you get to, like, check yourself. Was I right? Was I wrong?” I was like, “Oh, you're taller than I thought; you're shorter than I thought,” you know, whatever it was.But I think the fun part about it was we all end up being so close by the nature of how we work that it was just like going back and seeing family after a while; you already know who they are and how they are and about them. So, it felt good, but it felt familiar. That's a great feeling to have. To me, that's a sign of a very successful distributed culture.Corey: Yeah, it's weird the kinds of friendships we've built during the pandemic. When I was in New York for the summit, I got to meet Linda Haviv at AWS for the first time, despite spending the past year or so talking to her repeatedly. As I referred to her the entire time I was in New York, this is Linda, my new old friend because that is exactly how it felt. It's the idea of meeting someone in person that you've had a long-term ongoing friendship with. It's just a really—it's a strange way Everything's new but it's not, all at the same time.It reminds me of the early days of the internet culture where I had more friends online than off, which in my case was not hard. And finally meeting them, some people were exactly like they were described and others were nothing at all like they presented. Now that we have Zoom and this constant level of Slack chatter and whatnot, it's become a lot easier to get a read on what someone is like, I think.Tim: I think so too, you know, we've gotten away—and I think largely because of the pandemic—of just talking about work at work, right? The idea of embracing, you know, almost a cliche of the whole person. But it's become a very necessary thing as people have dealt with pandemic, social upheaval, political climates, and whatever, while they're working from home. You can't compartmentalize that safely in perpetuity, right? So, you do end up getting to know people very well, especially in what their concerns are, what their anxieties are, what makes them happy, what makes them sad, things that go on in their lives.You bring all that to your distributed culture because it's not like you leave it at the door, when you walk out. You're not walking out anymore; you're walking to another room, and it's hard to walk away from those things in this day and age. And we shouldn't have to, right? I feel like for a successful and nurturing culture—whatever it is, whether it's tech culture, whether it's whatever kind of work culture—you can't say, “I only want your productivity and nothing else about you,” and expect people to sustain that. So, you see these companies are, like, you know, “We don't have political discussions. We don't have personal discussions. We're just about the work.” I'm like, “All right, well, that's not going to last.” A person cannot just be an automaton in perpetuity and expect them to grow and thrive.Corey: And this is why you're leaving. And I want to give that a little context because without, sounds absolutely freaking horrifying. You've been a strong advocate for an awful lot of bringing the human to work, on your philosophy around leadership, around management. And you've often been acting in that capacity throughout, I would say, the majority of your career. But here at The Duckbill Group, we don't have a scale of team where you being the director of the team or leader of the team is going to happen in anything approaching the near or mid-term.And so, much of your philosophy is great and all because it's easy to sit here at a small company and start talking about, “Oh, this is how you should be doing it.” You have the opportunity to wind up making a much deeper impact on a lot more people from a management perspective, but you do in fact, need a team to manage as opposed to sitting around there, “Oh, yeah. Who do you manage?” “This one person and I'm doing all of these things to make their life and job awesome.” It's like, “Yeah, how many hours a week are you spending in one-on-ones?” “20 to 25.”Okay, maybe you need a slightly larger team so you can diffuse that out a little bit. And we are definitely sad to be losing you; super excited to see where you wind up going next. This has been a long time coming where there are things that you have absolutely knocked out of the park here at The Duckbill Group, but you also have that growing—from what I picked up on anyway—need to set a good management example. And lord knows this industry needs more of those. So first, sad to lose you. Secondly, very excited for where you wind up next and what they're in for, even though it has a strong likelihood that they don't know the half of it yet.Tim: One of the things that I like about The Duckbill Group and how my time here has been is the first thing that I was asked in the interview was very sincere, like, “Well, what's your next job?” And I was very clear. It's like, “After this, I want to be a director or VP of engineering because I would like to be a force multiplier, right?” I would like to make engineering orgs better. I would like to make engineering practices better. I want to make the engineers better, right?And not by driving KPIs and not by management, right, not administrative functions. I want to do it via leadership. I want to do it by setting examples, making safe places for people, making people feel like they're important and invested in, nurturing them, right? I've said this before I—this analogy was getting me somewhere else and I love, it's like, if I plant a tree and I want it to grow apples, right, I'm not going to sit there and put a number down of apples it's expected to produce, and then put it on a performance plan if it doesn't get that number of apples, right? I need to nurture the tree, I need to fertilize it, I need to protect it, I need to keep it safe, I need to keep it safe from the elements, I need to make sure that it doesn't have parasites, I need to take care of that tree.And if that tree grows and it's healthy and it's thriving, it will produce, right? But I'm not—I can't just expect apples if I'm not taking care of the tree. Now, people are not trees, but you still have to take care of the people if you want them to do things. And if you can't take care of the people, if you can't manage the environment that they're in to make it safe, if you can't give them the things they need to be successful, then you're just going to be holding numbers over someone and expecting to hit them.And that doesn't work. That's not something that's sustainable. And it doesn't really—it's not even about how much you pay them. You must pay them well, right, but it has to be more than just that if you want people to succeed. And that doesn't necessarily mean—like, one thing is at the Duckbill Group I love, succeeding doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to stay at—or your engineer is going to stay at one place in perpetuity. If you mentor and train and coach and give an engineer opportunity to grow and thrive and what they do is they go to another job for a title increase and a pay increase or something like that, you did your job.Corey: A lot of companies love to tell that lie and they almost convince themselves of it where I look at your resume, and great you have not generally crossed the two-year mark at companies for the last decade. I never did until I started at this place. But we magically always liked to pretend in job interviews that, “Oh yeah, this is my forever job—” like you're a rescue dog getting adopted or something, “—and I'm going to work here for 25 years and get a gold watch and a pension at the end of it.” It's lunacy. I have never seen the value in lying to ourselves like that, which is why we start our interviews with, “What's the job after this and how do we help you get there?”It's important that we ask those questions and acknowledge that reality. And the downside to it—if you can call it a downside—is you've got to live by it. It's not just words, you can slop onto an interview questionnaire; you actually have to mean it. People can see through insincerity.Tim: And it's one of the things, like, if you run an org and you grow your people and you don't have a place for them to grow into, you should expect and encourage them to find those opportunities elsewhere. It is not reasonable, I feel like, as a leader for you expect people to stay in a place where they have grown past or grown out of. You need to either need to give them a new pot to grow into or you need to let them move elsewhere and thrive and grow. And moving elsewhere—like, if you have a retention problem where you can't retain anybody, that's a problem, but if you have your junior engineers who become senior engineers at other places, right, and everyone leaves on good terms, and they got the role and you gave them a great recommendation and they give glowing recommendations to you, there's nothing wrong with that. That's not a failure; that's success.Corey: One bit of I would say pushback that I suspect you might get when talking to people about what's next is that, “Well, you are just a consultant, on some level, for a year.” You always know that someone is really arguing in good faith when they describe what you did with the word ‘just,' but we'll skip past that part. And it's, “You're just a consultant. What would you possibly know about team management and team dynamics?” And there is a little bit of truth to that insofar as the worst place in the world to get management advice is very clearly on Twitter.It turns out that most interpersonal scenarios are, one, far too personal to wind up tweeting about, and two, do not lend themselves to easy solutions that succinctly fit within 280 characters. Imagine that. The counter-argument though, is that you have—correctly from where I sit—identified a number of recurring dynamics on teams that you have encountered and worked with deeply as a large number of engagements. And these are recurring things, I want to be clear. So, I'm not talking about one particular client. If you're one of our clients and listen to this thinking that we're somehow subtweeting you with our voices—I don't know what that is; subwoofing, maybe?Tim: [crosstalk 00:12:05]—Corey: Is that what a subwoofer is? I'm not an audio person.Tim: Throwing shade, we'll just say—call it throwing shade.Corey: Yeah, we're not throwing shade at any one person, team, or group in particular; these are recurring things. Tim, what have you seen?Tim: And so, I think the biggest thing I see is folks that are on the precipice of a big technological change, right, and there is an extraordinary amount of anxiety, right? I've seen a number of customers through our engagements that, “We are moving away from this legacy platform,” or from this thing that we have been doing for X amount of time. And everyone has staked the other domains, staked out their areas of expertise and control and we're going to change that. And the solution to that is not a technical solution. You don't fix that by Helm charts, or Terraform, or CloudFormation. You fix that by conversations, and you fix that by listening. You fix that by finding ways to reassure folks and giving them confidence in their ability to adjust and thrive in a new environment.If you take somebody who's been, you know, an Oracle admin for 20 years, and you going to say, “Great. Now, you're going to learn, you're going to do this an RDS,” that's a whole new animal, and folks feel like, well, you know, I can't learn something new like that? Well, yeah you can. If you can learn Oracle, you can learn anything. I firmly believe that.But that's one of the conversations we have, it's never, almost never a technical problem folks have. We need to reassure people, right? And so, folks who reach out to us, it's typically folks who are trying to get their organizations in that direction. Another thing we see sometimes is that we find that there's a disconnect between leadership and the engineers. They have either different priorities or different understandings of what's going on. And we come in to solve a problem, which may be cost but that's not the problem we actually solve. The problem we actually solve is fixing this communication bridges between management and leadership.And that's almost an every time occurred. At some point or another, there's some disconnect there. And that's the best part of the job. Like, the reason I do this consulting gig is not because I want to bang away at code. If I've had to do that, that's an anomaly for sure because I want to have these conversations.And people want to have these conversations; they want to get these problems solved and sometimes they don't know how to. And that is the common thing, I think, through all of our customers. Like, we need some amount of expertise to help us find solutions to these things that aren't necessarily technical problems. And I think that's where we run into problems as an industry, right, where we think a lot of things are technical problems or have technical solutions, and they don't. There are people problems. They're—Corey: Here at The Duckbill Group, we're basically marriage counseling for engineering and finance in many cases.Tim: We really are.Corey: This is why were people not software.Tim: Yeah. And I will say this very firmly and you can quote me on this: like, you cannot replace us. You cannot replace the kind of engagements we do with software. You can't. Can't be done, right? Software is not empathetic.Corey: There are a whole series of questions we ask our clients at the start of an engagement and the answers to those questions change what we ask them going forward. In fact, even the level-setting in the conversation that we have at the start of that changes the nature of those. We're not reading from a list; we're trying to build an understanding. There is a process around what we do, but it's not process that can ever be scoped down to the point where it's just a list of questions or a questionnaire that isn't maddening for people to fill out because it's so deeply and clearly misses the mark around context of what they're actually doing.Tim: Mm-hm. Our engaged with their conversations. That's all they are. They're really in-depth conversations where we're going to start asking questions and we're going to ask questions about those answers. We're start pulling out strings and kicking over rocks and seeing what we find.And that's the kind of thing that, you know, you would expect anyone to do who's coming in and saying, “Okay, we have a problem. Now, let's figure it out.” Right? Well, you can't just look at something on the surface, and say, “Oh, I know what this is.” Right? You know, for someone to say, “Oh, I know how to fix this,” when they walk in is the surest way to know that someone doesn't know what they're talking about, right?Corey: Oh, easiest thing in the world is to walk in and say, “This is broken and wrong.” That can translate directly to, “Hi, I am very junior. Please feed my own ass to me.” Because no one shows up at work thinking they're going to do a crap job today on purpose. There's a reason things are the way that they are.Tim: Mm-hm. And that's the biggest piece of context we get from our customers is we can understand what the best practices are. You can go Google them right now and say, “This is the ten things you're supposed to do all the time,” right? And we would be really, really crappy consultants if we just read off that list, right? We need to have context: does this thing make sense? Is this the best practice? Maybe, but we want to know why you did it this way.And after you tell us that way, I'm like, “You know what? I would do it the exact same way for this use case.” And that's great. We can say like, “This is the best way to do that. Good job.” It's atypical; it's unusual, but it solves the problems that you need solving.And that's where I think a lot of people miss. Like, you know, you can go—and not to throw shade at AWS's Trusted Advisor, but we're going to throw shade at AWS's Trusted Advisor—and the fact that it will give you—Corey: It is Plausible Advisor at absolute best.Tim: [laugh]. It will give you suggestions that have no context. And a lot of the automated AI things that will recommend that you do this and this and this and this are pretty much all the same. And they have no context because they don't understand what you're trying to do. And that's what makes the difference between people. There's these people problems.And so, one of the things that I think is really interesting is that we have moved into doing a shorter engagement style that is very short. It's very quick, it's very kind of almost tactical, but we go in, we look at your bill, we ask you some questions, and we're going to give you a list of suggestions that are going to save you a significant amount of money right away, right? So, a lot of times, folks when they need quick wins, or they don't really need us to deep-dive into all their DynamoDB access patterns, right? They just want like, “Hey, what are the five things we can do to save us some money?” And we're like, “Well, here they are. And here's what we think they're going to save you.” And folks who really enjoyed that type of engagement. And it's one of my favorite ones to do.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: I can also predict that people are going to have questions for you—probably inane—of, well, you were a consultant, how are your actual technical chops? And I love answering these questions with data. So, I have here pulled up the last six months of The Duckbill Group's AWS bills. And for those who are unaware, every cloud economist has their own dedicated test account for testing out strange things that we come across. And again, can the correct answer in many consulting engagements is, “I don't know, but I'll find out.”Well, this is how we find out. We run tests and learn these things ourselves. I suppose we could extend this benefit, if you want to call it that, to people who aren't cloud economists but I'm not entirely sure what, I don't know, an audio engineer is going to do with an AWS account that isn't, you know, kind of horrifying. To the audio engineer that is editing this podcast, my condolences if you take that as a slight, and if there is something you would use an AWS account for, please let me know. We'll come talk about it here.But back to topic, looking at the last six months of your bill for your account—that's right, a ritualistic shaming of the AWS bill—in January you spent $16.06. In February, you spent 44 cents. And you realized that was too high, so back in March, you then spent 19 cents. And then $3.01 back in April. May wound up $10.02, and now you're $9.84 as of June. July has not yet finalized as of this recording.And what I want to highlight—and what that tells me when I look at these types of bills—and I assure you as the world's leading self-described expert in AWS billing, I'm right; listening to me is a best practice on these things—that shows the exact opposite of a steady-state workload. There's a lot of dynamism to those giant swings because we don't have cloud economists who are going to just run these things steady-state for the rest of our lives. Those are experiments of building and testing out new and exciting things in a whole bunch of very weird, very strange ways. Whenever I wind up talking to someone in one of the overarching AWS services at AWS and I pull up my account, a common refrain is, “Wow, you use an awful lot of services.” Right. I'm not just sitting here run and EC2 instances forever. Imagine that. And your account is a perfect microcosm of that entire philosophy.Tim: Well, I don't know all the answers, right? And I will never profess all the answers. And before I say, “You should do this—” or maybe I will say, “You might be able to do this. Let me go save as possible.” [laugh]. Right? And so, just let me just see, can you do this? Does this work? No, I guess it doesn't. Or AWS docu—especially, “The AWS documentation says this. Let me see if that's actually the case.”Corey: I don't believe that they intend to lie, but—Tim: No.Corey: —they also certainly don't get it correct all the time.Tim: And to be fair, they have, what, 728 services by this point, and that's a lot of documentation you're not going to get—Corey: Three more have launched since the start of this recording.Tim: I—yeah, actually—well, by the time this hits, they're probably going to have 22. But we'll [laugh] see. But yeah, no. And that's fine. And they're not going to have every use case, and every edge, kind of like, concern handled, and so that's why we need to kick the tires a little bit.And what I think more than anything else is, you know, sometimes we just do things out of convenience. Like, “Well, I don't want to run this on this; let me just fire it up because it's not my money.” [laugh]. But we also want to be fairly concerned about you know, how we do things. You don't want to run a fleet of z1ds, obviously.But there is a certain amount of tire-kicking and infrastructure spinning up that you have to do in order to maintain freshness, right? And it's not a thing where I'm going to say, “Oh, I know YAML off the top of my head, and I need to do—you know, I'm up to speed on every single possible API call that you can make.” No. My technical prowess has always been in architecture and operations. So, I think when we have these conversations, folks mostly tend to be impressed by not only business acumen and strategy, but also being able to get down to the weeds and talking with the developers and the engineers about the minutia. And you will have seen you know, the feedback that I've gotten about my technical prowess has always been good. You know, I can hang with anybody, I feel like.Corey: I would agree wholeheartedly. It's been really interesting watching you in conversations, internally and with our clients, where you will just idly bust out something fricking brilliant out of left field. And most of the time, I don't think you even realize it. It's just one of those things that makes intuitive and instinctive sense to you. And you basically just leave people stunned and their scribbling notes and trying to wrap their heads around what you just said.And it's adorable because sometimes you wind up almost, like, looking embarrassed, like, “Did I say something rude and not realize it? Like, I wasn't trying to be insulting.” It's like, “Nope, nope. You're just doing your thing, Tim. Just keep on doing it. That's fine.”Tim: Yeah, it's funny because, like you, one of the things that I've really enjoyed about it is, like, we'll just start bouncing ideas off of each other and come up with something brilliant. “Yeah, let's do that.” And then, “Okay, this is now a thing.” And it's like, you know, there's something to be said about being around smart people. So, it's not just me coming up with something brilliant; these are almost always fruits of a conversation and discussion being had, and then you formulate something great in your head.But again, this is why I love the aspect of talking and having conversations with people, so that way you can come up with something kind of brilliant. None of this is done in a silo. Like we're not really, really good at what we do because we don't rely or talk to or have conversations with other people.Corey: One thing that you did that I think is one of the most transformative things that has happened in company history in some respects has been when you started, and for the first half of your tenure here, we had two engagement types that we would wind up giving our consulting clients. There's contract negotiation, where we help companies negotiate their long-term commitment contracts with AWS—and we're effective at it and that's fun; that's basically what you would more or less expected to be—and the other is our cost optimization project engagements. And those tend to look six to eight weeks where we wind up going in deep-dives into the intricacies of an organization's AWS accounts, bills, strategy, growth plan, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to an exhaustive level of detail. And in an interest of being probably overly transparent here, I didn't like working on those engagements myself. I like coming in, finding the big things that will be transformative to reduce the bills—it's like solving a puzzle—and then the relatively in-depth analysis for things that are a relatively paltry portion of the AWS bill does not really lead me to enjoying the work very much.And I beat my head against that one for years. And you busted out one day with an idea that became our third type of engagement, which is the first pass, where we charge significantly less for the engagement and it essentially distills down into you get us to talk to your engineering teams for a day. Bring us any questions, give us access in advance to these things, and we will basically go on a whirlwind guided tour and lay waste to your AWS bill and highlight different opportunities that we see to optimize these things. And it has been an absolute smash success. People love the engagements.Very often, it leads to that second full-bore engagement that I was describing earlier, but it also aligns very well with the way that I like to think about these things. I'm a great consultant, specifically because once I've delivered the value, I like to leave. Whereas as an employee, I just sort of linger around, and then I go cause problems and other people's departments—ideally, not on purpose, but you know, I am me—and this really emphasizes that and keeps me moving quickly. I really, really like that engagement style and I have you to thank for coming up with the idea and finding a way to do it that didn't either not resonate with the market—in which case, we're not selling a damn thing—or wound up completely eviscerating the value of the longer-term deep-dive engagements, and you threaded that needle perfectly.Tim: I thank you; I appreciate that. There was this kind of vacuum that I saw where, both from a cost and from a resource point where six to eight weeks is a long time for an engineering org to dedicate to any one thing, especially if that one thing isn't directly making money. But engineering orgs are also very interested in saving money. But it's especially in smaller orgs where that velocity is very important, they don't have six to eight weeks for that. They can't dedicate the resources to those deep-dives all the time, and all the conversations we—and when we do a COP, it is exhaustive. We are exploring every avenue to almost an absurd level, right?And that's not the right engagement for a lot of orgs, right? So, coming in and saying, “Hey, you know, this is a quick one; these are the things that you can do. This is 90% of the savings you're going to realize. These things: bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.” Right?And then we give it to the folks and we let them work on it, and then they're like, “Hey, we need this because we want to negotiate EDP,” or, “We need this because, you know, we're just trying to make sure that our costs are in line so we can be more agile, so we can do this project, or whatever.” Right? And then there are a lot of other orgs that do need that exhaustive kind of thing, larger orgs especially, right? Larger, more complex orgs, orgs that are trying to maybe—like, if you're trying to make a play to get acquired, you want to get this very, very in-depth study so you know all your liabilities and all your assets, so that way you can fix those problems and make it very attractive for someone to buy you, right? Or orgs that just have, like, we are not having an impending EDP; we have a lot of time to be able to focus on these things, and we can build this into the roadmap, right?Then we can do a very exhaustive study of those things. But for a lot of times, people are just like, “Look, I just need to save X amount of money on my AWS bill and can you do that?” Well, sure. We can go in there and have those conversations and give you a lot of savings. And I'm very much in the camp of, you know, ‘perfect is the enemy of good.' I don't have to save down to the nth penny on your DynamoDB bill. But if I can, shave—cut it in half, that's great. Most people are very happy about those kinds of things. And that's a very routine finding for us.Corey: One other aspect that I really liked about it, too, is that it let us move down market a bit, away from companies that are spending millions of dollars a month. Because yeah, the ROI for those customers is a slam dunk on virtually any engagement that we could put together, but what about the smaller companies, the ones that are not spending that much money, yet? They've never felt great talk to them and say, “Oh, just go screw up your AWS bill some more. Then, then you will absolutely be able to generate some value. Maybe turn off MFA and post your credentials to GitHub or something. That'll speed up the process nicely.”That's terrible advice and we can't do it. But this enables us to move down to smaller companies that are earlier in their cloud estate build-out or are growing organically rather than trying to do a giant migration as sort of greenfield growth approach. I really, really like our ability to help companies that are a bit earlier in their cloud journey, as well as in smaller environments, just because I guess, on some level, for me, at least, when you see enormous multimillion-dollar levels of spend, the misconfigurations are generally less fun to find; they're less exciting. Because, yeah at a small scale, you can screw up and your Managed NAT Gateway bill is a third of your spend. When you're spending $80 million a year, you're not wasting that kind of money on Managed NAT Gateways because that misconfiguration becomes visible from frickin' orbit.So, someone has already found that stuff. And it's always then it's almost certainly EC2, RDS, and storage. Great. Then there's some weird data transfer stuff and it starts to look a lot more identical. Smaller accounts, at least from my perspective, tend to have a lot more of interesting things to learn hiding in the shadows.Tim: Oh, absolutely. And I think the impact that you make for the future for small companies much higher, right? You go in there and you have an engagement, you can say, “Okay, I understand the business reason why you did this here, but if you make these changes—bam, bam, bam—12 to 18 months and on, right, this is going to make a huge difference in your business. You're going to save a tremendous amount of money and you're going to be much more agile.”You did this thing because it worked for the POC, it worked for the MVP, right? That's great, but before it gets too big and becomes load-bearing technical debt, let's make some changes to put you in a better position, both for cost optimization and an architectural future that you don't have to then break a bone that's already set to try and fix it. So, getting in there before there's a tremendous load on their architecture—or rather on their infrastructure, it's super, super fun because you know that when you've done this, you have given that company more runway, or you've given them the things they need to actually be more successful, and so they can focus their time and efforts on growth and not on trying to stop the bleeding with their AWS bill.Corey: Tim, it's been an absolute pleasure to work with you. I'm going to miss working with you, but we are definitely going to remain in touch. Where can people find you to follow along with your continuing adventures?Tim: The best way to find me is on Twitter, I am @elchefe—E-L-C-H-E-F-E. And yeah, I will definitely keep in touch with you, Corey. Again, you have been a tremendous friend and I really appreciate you, your insights, and your honesty. Our partners are friends with each other and I do not think that they will let us ever drift too far apart. So.Corey: No, I think it is pretty clear that we are basically going to be both of their plus-ones forever.Tim: [laugh]. I think so.Corey: I'm just waiting for them when they pulled the prank of dressing us the exact same way because our styles are somewhat different, and I'm pretty sure that there's not a whole lot of convergence where we both wind up looking great. So, it's going to be hilarious regardless of what direction it goes in.Tim: Well, you do have velour tracksuits too, right?Corey: Not yet, but please don't tell that to Bethany.Tim: [laugh].Corey: Tim, it has been an absolute pleasure.Tim: The pleasure has been all mine, Corey. I really appreciate it.Corey: Tim Banks, for one last time, principal cloud economist at The Duckbill Group. I am Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and an insulting comment that says that we are completely wrong in our approach to management and the real answer is as follows, making sure to keep that answer less than 280 characters.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Tim Oh talks the Los Angeles Clippers (aka The People's Team), cigars and whiskey (aka Degenerate Classiness), Jazz Philosophy, and his sacred sleep sanctuary. Note that this episode was recorded in August of 2021. This is relevant because the Clippers made it to the 2020–21 NBA Conference Finals, something that is referenced to in this episode.

About TimTimothy William Bray is a Canadian software developer, environmentalist, political activist and one of the co-authors of the original XML specification. He worked for Amazon Web Services from December 2014 until May 2020 when he quit due to concerns over the terminating of whistleblowers. Previously he has been employed by Google, Sun Microsystemsand Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC). Bray has also founded or co-founded several start-ups such as Antarctica Systems.Links Referenced: Textuality Services: https://www.textuality.com/ laugh]. So, the impetus for having this conversation is, you had a [blog post: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2022/01/30/Cloud-Lock-In @timbray: https://twitter.com/timbray tbray.org: https://tbray.org duckbillgroup.com: https://duckbillgroup.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats V-U-L-T-R.com slash screaming.Corey: Couchbase Capella Database-as-a-Service is flexible, full-featured and fully managed with built in access via key-value, SQL, and full-text search. Flexible JSON documents aligned to your applications and workloads. Build faster with blazing fast in-memory performance and automated replication and scaling while reducing cost. Capella has the best price performance of any fully managed document database. Visit couchbase.com/screaminginthecloud to try Capella today for free and be up and running in three minutes with no credit card required. Couchbase Capella: make your data sing.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today has been on a year or two ago, but today, we're going in a bit of a different direction. Tim Bray is a principal at Textuality Services.Once upon a time, he was a Distinguished Engineer slash VP at AWS, but let's be clear, he isn't solely focused on one company; he also used to work at Google. Also, there is scuttlebutt that he might have had something to do, at one point, with the creation of God's true language, XML. Tim, thank you for coming back on the show and suffering my slings and arrows.Tim: Oh, you're just fine. Glad to be here.Corey: [laugh]. So, the impetus for having this conversation is, you had a blog post somewhat recently—by which I mean, January of 2022—where you talked about lock-in and multi-cloud, two subjects near and dear to my heart, mostly because I have what I thought was a fairly countercultural opinion. You seem to have a very closely aligned perspective on this. But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Where did this blog posts come from?Tim: Well, I advised a couple of companies and one of them happens to be using GCP and the other happens to be using AWS and I get involved in a lot of industry conversations, and I noticed that multi-cloud is a buzzword. If you go and type multi-cloud into Google, you get, like, a page of people saying, “We will solve your multi-cloud problems. Come to us and you will be multi-cloud.” And I was not sure what to think, so I started writing to find out what I would think. And I think it's not complicated anymore. I think the multi-cloud is a reality in most companies. I think that many mainstream, non-startup companies are really worried about cloud lock-in, and that's not entirely unreasonable. So, it's a reasonable thing to think about and it's a reasonable thing to try and find the right balance between avoiding lock-in and not slowing yourself down. And the issues were interesting. What was surprising is that I published that blog piece saying what I thought were some kind of controversial things, and I got no pushback. Which was, you know, why I started talking to you and saying, “Corey, you know, does nobody disagree with this? Do you disagree with this? Maybe we should have a talk and see if this is just the new conventional wisdom.”Corey: There's nothing worse than almost trying to pick a fight, but no one actually winds up taking you up on the opportunity. That always feels a little off. Let's break it down into two issues because I would argue that they are intertwined, but not necessarily the same thing. Let's start with multi-cloud because it turns out that there's just enough nuance to—at least where I sit on this position—that whenever I tweet about it, I wind up getting wildly misinterpreted. Do you find that as well?Tim: Not so much. It's not a subject I have really had too much to say about, but it does mean lots of different things. And so it's not totally surprising that that happens. I mean, some people think when you say multi-cloud, you mean, “Well, I'm going to take my strategic application, and I'm going to run it in parallel on AWS and GCP because that way, I'll be more resilient and other good things will happen.” And then there's another thing, which is that, “Well, you know, as my company grows, I'm naturally going to be using lots of different technologies and that might include more than one cloud.” So, there's a whole spectrum of things that multi-cloud could mean. So, I guess when we talk about it, we probably owe it to our audiences to be clear what we're talking about.Corey: Let's be clear, from my perspective, the common definition of multi-cloud is whatever the person talking is trying to sell you at that point in time is, of course, what multi-cloud is. If it's a third-party dashboard, for example, “Oh, yeah, you want to be able to look at all of your cloud usage on a single pane of glass.” If it's a certain—well, I guess, certain not a given cloud provider, well, they understand if you go all-in on a cloud provider, it's probably not going to be them so they're, of course, going to talk about multi-cloud. And if it's AWS, where they are the 8000-pound gorilla in the space, “Oh, yeah, multi-clouds, terrible. Put everything on AWS. The end.” It seems that most people who talk about this have a very self-serving motivation that they can't entirely escape. That bias does reflect itself.Tim: That's true. When I joined AWS, which was around 2014, the PR line was a very hard line. “Well, multi-cloud that's not something you should invest in.” And I've noticed that the conversation online has become much softer. And I think one reason for that is that going all-in on a single cloud is at least possible when you're a startup, but if you're a big company, you know, a insurance company, a tire manufacturer, that kind of thing, you're going to be multi-cloud, for the same reason that they already have COBOL on the mainframe and Java on the old Sun boxes, and Mongo running somewhere else, and five different programming languages.And that's just the way big companies are, it's a consequence of M&A, it's a consequence of research projects that succeeded, one kind or another. I mean, lots of big companies have been trying to get rid of COBOL for decades, literally, [laugh] and not succeeding and doing that. So—Corey: It's ‘legacy' which is, of course, the condescending engineering term for, “It makes money.”Tim: And works. And so I don't think it's realistic to, as a matter of principle, not be multi-cloud.Corey: Let's define our terms a little more closely because very often, people like to pull strange gotchas out of the air. Because when I talk about this, I'm talking about—like, when I speak about it off the cuff, I'm thinking in terms of where do I run my containers? Where do I run my virtual machines? Where does my database live? But you can also move in a bunch of different directions. Where do my Git repositories live? What Office suite am I using? What am I using for my CRM? Et cetera, et cetera? Where do you draw the boundary lines because it's very easy to talk past each other if we're not careful here?Tim: Right. And, you know, let's grant that if you're a mainstream enterprise, you're running your Office automation on Microsoft, and they're twisting your arm to use the cloud version, so you probably are. And if you have any sense at all, you're not running your own Exchange Server, so let's assume that you're using Microsoft Azure for that. And you're running Salesforce, and that means you're on Salesforce's cloud. And a lot of other Software-as-a-Service offerings might be on AWS or Azure or GCP; they don't even tell you.So, I think probably the crucial issue that we should focus our conversation on is my own apps, my own software that is my core competence that I actually use to run the core of my business. And typically, that's the only place where a company would and should invest serious engineering resources to build software. And that's where the question comes, where should that software that I'm going to build run? And should it run on just one cloud, or—Corey: I found that when I gave a conference talk on this, in the before times, I had to have a ever lengthier section about, “I'm speaking in the general sense; there are specific cases where it does make sense for you to go in a multi-cloud direction.” And when I'm talking about multi-cloud, I'm not necessarily talking about Workload A lives on Azure and Workload B lives on AWS, through mergers, or weird corporate approaches, or shadow IT that—surprise—that's not revenue-bearing. Well, I guess we have to live with it. There are a lot of different divisions doing different things and you're going to see that a fair bit. And I'm not convinced that's a terrible idea as such. I'm talking about the single workload that we're going to spread across two or more clouds, intentionally.Tim: That's probably not a good idea. I just can't see that being a good idea, simply because you get into a problem of just terminology and semantics. You know, the different providers mean different things by the word ‘region' and the word ‘instance,' and things like that. And then there's the people problem. I mean, I don't think I personally know anybody who would claim to be able to build and deploy an application on AWS and also on GCP. I'm sure some people exist, but I don't know any of them.Corey: Well, Forrest Brazeal was deep in the AWS weeds and now he's the head of content at Google Cloud. I will credit him that he probably has learned to smack an API around over there.Tim: But you know, you're going to have a hard time hiring a person like that.Corey: Yeah. You can count these people almost as individuals.Tim: And that's a big problem. And you know, in a lot of cases, it's clearly the case that our profession is talent-starved—I mean, the whole world is talent-starved at the moment, but our profession in particular—and a lot of the decisions about what you can build and what you can do are highly contingent on who you can hire. And you can't hire a multi-cloud expert, well, you should not deploy, [laugh] you know, a multi-cloud application.Now, having said that, I just want to dot this i here and say that it can be made to kind of work. I've got this one company I advise—I wrote about it in the blog piece—that used to be on AWS and switched over to GCP. I don't even know why; this happened before I joined them. And they have a lot of applications and then they have some integrations with third-party partners which they implemented with AWS Lambda functions. So, when they moved over to GCP, they didn't stop doing that.So, this mission-critical latency-sensitive application of theirs runs on GCP that calls out to AWS to make calls into their partners' APIs and so on. And works fine. Solid as a rock, reliable, low latency. And so I talked to a person I know who knows over on the AWS side, and they said, “Oh, yeah sure, you know, we talked to those guys. Lots of people do that. We make sure, you know, the connections are low latency and solid.” So, technically speaking, it can be done. But for a variety of business reasons—maybe the most important one being expertise and who you can hire—it's probably just not a good idea.Corey: One of the areas where I think is an exception case is if you are a SaaS provider. Let's pick a big easy example: Snowflake, where they are a data warehouse. They've got to run their data warehousing application in all of the major clouds because that is where their customers are. And it turns out that if you're going to send a few petabytes into a data warehouse, you really don't want to be paying cloud egress rates to do it because it turns out, you can just bootstrap a second company for that much money.Tim: Well, Zoom would be another example, obviously.Corey: Oh, yeah. Anything that's heavy on data transfer is going to be a strange one. And there's being close to customers; gaming companies are another good example on this where a lot of the game servers themselves will be spread across a bunch of different providers, just purely based on latency metrics around what is close to certain customer clusters.Tim: I can't disagree with that. You know, I wonder how large a segment that is, of people who are, I think you're talking about core technology companies. Now, of the potential customers of the cloud providers, how many of them are core technology companies, like the kind we're talking about, who have such a need, and how many people who just are people who just want to run their manufacturing and product design and stuff. And for those, buying into a particular cloud is probably a perfectly sensible choice.Corey: I've also seen regulatory stories about this. I haven't been able to track them down specifically, but there is a pervasive belief that one interpretation of UK banking regulations stipulates that you have to be able to get back up and running within 30 days on a different cloud provider entirely. And also, they have the regulatory requirement that I believe the data remain in-country. So, that's a little odd. And honestly, when it comes to best practices and how you should architect things, I'm going to take a distinct backseat to legal requirements imposed upon you by your regulator. But let's be clear here, I'm not advising people to go and tell their auditors that they're wrong on these things.Tim: I had not heard that story, but you know, it sounds plausible. So, I wonder if that is actually in effect, which is to say, could a huge British banking company, in fact do that? Could they in fact, decamp from Azure and move over to GCP or AWS in 30 days? Boy.Corey: That is what one bank I spoke to over there was insistent on. A second bank I spoke to in that same jurisdiction had never heard of such a thing, so I feel like a lot of this is subject to auditor interpretation. Again, I am not an expert in this space. I do not pretend to be—I know I'm that rarest of all breeds: A white guy with a microphone in tech who admits he doesn't know something. But here we are.Tim: Yeah, I mean, I imagine it could be plausible if you didn't use any higher-level services, and you just, you know, rented instances and were careful about which version of Linux you ran and we're just running a bunch of Java code, which actually, you know, describes the workload of a lot of financial institutions. So, it should be a matter of getting… all the right instances configured and the JVM configured and launched. I mean, there are no… architecturally terrifying barriers to doing that. Of course, to do that, it would mean you would have to avoid using any of the higher-level services that are particular to any cloud provider and basically just treat them as people you rent boxes from, which is probably not a good choice for other business reasons.Corey: Which can also include things as seemingly low-level is load balancers, just based upon different provisioning modes, failure modes, and the rest. You're probably going to have a more consistent experience running HAProxy or nginx yourself to do it. But Tim, I have it on good authority that this is the old way of thinking, and that Kubernetes solves all of it. And through the power of containers and powers combining and whatnot, that frees us from being beholden to any given provider and our workloads are now all free as birds.Tim: Well, I will go as far as saying that if you are in the position of trying to be portable, probably using containers is a smart thing to do because that's a more tractable level of abstraction that does give you some insulation from, you know, which version of Linux you're running and things like that. The proposition that configuring and running Kubernetes is easier than configuring and running [laugh] JVM on Linux [laugh] is unsupported by any evidence I've seen. So, I'm dubious of the proposition that operating at the Kubernetes-level at the [unintelligible 00:14:42] level, you know, there's good reasons why some people want to do that, but I'm dubious of the proposition that really makes you more portable in an essential way.Corey: Well, you're also not the target market for Kubernetes. You have worked at multiple cloud providers and I feel like the real advantage of Kubernetes is people who happen to want to protect that they do so they can act as a sort of a cosplay of being their own cloud provider by running all the intricacies of Kubernetes. I'm halfway kidding, but there is an uncomfortable element of truth to that to some of the conversations I've had with some of its more, shall we say, fanatical adherents.Tim: Well, I think you and I are neither of us huge fans of Kubernetes, but my reasons are maybe a little different. Kubernetes does some really useful things. It really, really does. It allows you to take n VMs, and pack m different applications onto them in a way that takes reasonably good advantage of the processing power they have. And it allows you to have different things running in one place with different IP addresses.It sounds straightforward, but that turns out to be really helpful in a lot of ways. So, I'm actually kind of sympathetic with what Kubernetes is trying to be. My big gripe with it is that I think that good technology should make easy things easy and difficult things possible, and I think Kubernetes fails the first test there. I think the complexity that it involves is out of balance with the benefits you get. There's a lot of really, really smart people who disagree with me, so this is not a hill I'm going to die on.Corey: This is very much one of those areas where reasonable people can disagree. I find the complexity to be overwhelming; it has to collapse. At this point, it's finding someone who can competently run Kubernetes in production is a bit hard to do and they tend to be extremely expensive. You aren't going to find a team of those people at every company that wants to do things like this, and they're certainly not going to be able to find it in their budget in many cases. So, it's a challenging thing to do.Tim: Well, that's true. And another thing is that once you step onto the Kubernetes slope, you start looking about Istio and Envoy and [fabric 00:16:48] technology. And we're talking about extreme complexity squared at that point. But you know, here's the thing is, back in 2018 I think it was, in his keynote, Werner said that the big goal is that all the code you ever write should be application logic that delivers business value, which you know rep—Corey: Didn't CGI say the same thing? Didn't—like, isn't there, like, a long history dating back longer than I believe either of us have been alive have, “With this, all you're going to write is business logic.” That was the Java promise. That was the Google App Engine promise. Again, and again, we've had that carrot dangled in front of us, and it feels like the reality with Lambda is, the only code you will write is not necessarily business logic, it's getting the thing to speak to the other service you're trying to get it to talk to because a lot of these integrations are super finicky. At least back when I started learning how this stuff worked, they were.Tim: People understand where the pain points are and are indeed working on them. But I think we can agree that if you believe in that as a goal—which I still do; I mean, we may not have got there, but it's still a worthwhile goal to work on. We can agree that wrangling Istio configurations is not such a thing; it's not [laugh] directly value-adding business logic. To the extent that you can do that, I think serverless provides a plausible way forward. Now, you can be all cynical about, “Well, I still have trouble making my Lambda to talk to my other thing.” But you know, I've done that, and I've also deployed JVM on bare metal kind of thing.You know what? I'd rather do things at the Lambda level. I really rather would. Because capacity forecasting is a horribly difficult thing, we're all terrible at it, and the penalties for being wrong are really bad. If you under-specify your capacity, your customers have a lousy experience, and if you over-specify it, and you have an architecture that makes you configure for peak load, you're going to spend bucket-loads of money that you don't need to.Corey: “But you're then putting your availability in the cloud providers' hands.” “Yeah, you already were. Now, we're just being explicit about acknowledging that.”Tim: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's highly relevant to the current discussion because if you use the higher-level serverless function if you decide, okay, I'm going to go with Lambda and Dynamo and EventBridge and that kind of thing, well, that's not portable at all. I mean, APIs are totally idiosyncratic for AWS and GCP's equivalent, and Azure's—what do they call it? Permanent functions or something-a-rather functions. So yeah, that's part of the trade-off you have to think about. If you're going to do that, you're definitely not going to be multi-cloud in that application.Corey: And in many cases, one of the stated goals for going multi-cloud is that you can avoid the downtime of a single provider. People love to point at the big AWS outages or, “See? They were down for half a day.” And there is a societal question of what happens when everyone is down for half a day at the same time, but in most cases, what I'm seeing, your instead of getting rid of a single point of failure, introducing a second one. If either one of them is down your applications down, so you've doubled your outage surface area.On the rare occasions where you're able to map your dependencies appropriately, great. Are your third-party critical providers all doing the same? If you're an e-commerce site and Stripe processes your payments, well, they're public about being all-in on AWS. So, if you can't process payments, does it really matter that your website stays up? It becomes an interesting question. And those are the ones that you know about, let alone the third, fourth-order dependencies that are almost impossible to map unless everyone is as diligent as you are. It's a heavy, heavy lift.Tim: I'm going to push back a little bit. Now, for example, this company I'm advising that running GCP and calling out to Lambda is in that position; either GCP or Lambda goes off the air. On the other hand, if you've got somebody like Zoom, they're probably running parallel full stacks on the different cloud providers. And if you're doing that, then you can at least plausibly claim that you're in a good place because if Dynamo has an outage—and everything relies on Dynamo—then you shift your load over to GCP or Oracle [laugh] and you're still on the air.Corey: Yeah, but what is up as well because Zoom loves to sign me out on my desktop whenever I log into it on my laptop, and vice versa, and I wonder if that authentication and login system is also replicated full-stack to everywhere it goes, and what the fencing on that looks like, and how the communication between all those things works? I wouldn't doubt that it's possible that they've solved for this, but I also wonder how thoroughly they've really tested all of the, too. Not because I question them any; just because this stuff is super intricate as you start tracing it down into the nitty-gritty levels of the madness that consumes all these abstractions.Tim: Well, right, that's a conventional wisdom that is really wise and true, which is that if you have software that is alleged to do something like allow you to get going on another cloud, unless you've tested it within the last three weeks, it's not going to work when you need it.Corey: Oh, it's like a DR exercise: The next commit you make breaks it. Once you have the thing working again, it sits around as a binder, and it's a best guess. And let's be serious, a lot of these DR exercises presume that you're able to, for example, change DNS records on the fly, or be able to get a virtual machine provisioned in less than 45 minutes—because when there's an actual outage, surprise, everyone's trying to do the same things—there's a lot of stuff in there that gets really wonky at weird levels.Tim: A related similar exercise, which is people who want to be on AWS but want to be multi-region. It's actually, you know, a fairly similar kind of problem. If I need to be able to fail out of us-east-1—well, God help you, because if you need to everybody else needs to as well—but you know, would that work?Corey: Before you go multi-cloud go multi-region first. Tell me how easy it is because then you have full-feature parity—presumably—between everything; it should just be a walk in the park. Send me a postcard once you get that set up and I'll eat a bunch of words. And it turns out, basically, no one does.Tim: Mm-hm.Corey: Another area of lock-in around a lot of this stuff, and I think that makes it very hard to go multi-cloud is the security model of how does that interface with various aspects. In many cases, I'm seeing people doing full-on network overlays. They don't have to worry about the different security group models and VPCs and all the rest. They can just treat everything as a node sitting on the internet, and the only thing it talks to is an overlay network. Which is terrible, but that seems to be one of the only ways people are able to build things that span multiple providers with any degree of success.Tim: Well, that is painful because, much as we all like to scoff and so on, in the degree of complexity you get into there, it is the case that your typical public cloud provider can do security better than you can. They just can. It's a fact of life. And if you're using a public cloud provider and not taking advantage of their security offerings, infrastructure, that's probably dumb. But if you really want to be multi-cloud, you kind of have to, as you said.In particular, this gets back to the problem of expertise because it's hard enough to hire somebody who really understands IAM deeply and how to get that working properly, try and find somebody who can understand that level of thing on two different cloud providers at once. Oh, gosh.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: Another point you made in your blog post was the idea of lock-in, of people being worried that going all-in on a provider was setting them up to be, I think Oracle is the term that was tossed around where once you're dependent on a provider, what's to stop them from cranking the pricing knobs until you squeal?Tim: Nothing. And I think that is a perfectly sane thing to worry about. Now, in the short term, based on my personal experience working with, you know, AWS leadership, I think that it's probably not a big short-term risk. AWS is clearly aware that most of the growth is still in front of them. You know, the amount of all of it that's on the cloud is still pretty small and so the thing to worry about right now is growth.And they are really, really genuinely, sincerely focused on customer success and will bend over backwards to deal with the customers problems as they are. And I've seen places where people have negotiated a huge multi-year enterprise agreement based on Reserved Instances or something like that, and then realize, oh, wait, we need to switch our whole technology stack, but you've got us by the RIs and AWS will say, “No, no, it's okay. We'll tear that up and rewrite it and get you where you need to go.” So, in the short term, between now and 2025, would I worry about my cloud provider doing that? Probably not so much.But let's go a little further out. Let's say it's, you know, 2030 or something like that, and at that point, you know, Andy Jassy decided to be a full-time sports mogul, and Satya Narayana has gone off to be a recreational sailboat owner or something like that, and private equity operators come in and take very significant stakes in the public cloud providers, and get a lot of their guys on the board, and you have a very different dynamic. And you have something that starts to feel like Oracle where their priority isn't, you know, optimizing for growth and customer success; their priority is optimizing for a quarterly bottom line, and—Corey: Revenue extraction becomes the goal.Tim: That's absolutely right. And this is not a hypothetical scenario; it's happened. Most large companies do not control the amount of money they spend per year to have desktop software that works. They pay whatever Microsoft's going to say they pay because they don't have a choice. And a lot of companies are in the same situation with their database.They don't get to budget, their database budget. Oracle comes in and says, “Here's what you're going to pay,” and that's what you pay. You really don't want to be in a situation with your cloud, and that's why I think it's perfectly reasonable for somebody who is doing cloud transition at a major financial or manufacturing or service provider company to have an eye to this. You know, let's not completely ignore the lock-in issue.Corey: There is a significant scale with enterprise deals and contracts. There is almost always a contractual provision that says if you're going to raise a price with any cloud provider, there's a fixed period of time of notice you must give before it happens. I feel like the first mover there winds up getting soaked because everyone is going to panic and migrate in other directions. I mean, Google tried it with Google Maps for their API, and not quite Google Cloud, but also scared the bejesus out of a whole bunch of people who were, “Wait. Is this a harbinger of things to come?”Tim: Well, not in the short term, I don't think. And I think you know, Google Maps [is absurdly 00:26:36] underpriced. That's hellishly expensive service. And it's supposed to pay for itself by, you know, advertising on maps. I don't know about that.I would see that as the exception rather than the rule. I think that it's reasonable to expect cloud prices, nominally at least, to go on decreasing for at least the short term, maybe even the medium term. But that's—can't go on forever.Corey: It also feels to me, like having looked at an awful lot of AWS environments that if there were to be some sort of regulatory action or some really weird outage for a year that meant that AWS could not onboard a single new customer, their revenue year-over-year would continue to increase purely by organic growth because there is no forcing function that turns the thing off when you're done using it. In fact, they can migrate things around to hardware that works, they can continue building you for the things sitting there idle. And there is no governance path on that. So, on some level, winding up doing a price increase is going to cause a massive company focus on fixing a lot of that. It feels on some level like it is drawing attention to a thing that they don't really want to draw attention to from a purely revenue extraction story.When CentOS back-walked their ten-year support line two years, suddenly—and with an idea that it would drive [unintelligible 00:27:56] adoption. Well, suddenly, a lot of people looked at their environment, saw they had old [unintelligible 00:28:00] they weren't using. And massively short-sighted, massively irritated a whole bunch of people who needed that in the short term, but by the renewal, we're going to be on to Ubuntu or something else. It feels like it's going to backfire massively, and I'd like to imagine the strategist of whoever takes the reins of these companies is going to be smarter than that. But here we are.Tim: Here we are. And you know it's interesting you should mention regulatory action. At the moment, there are only three credible public cloud providers. It's not obvious the Google's really in it for the long haul, as last time I checked, they were claiming to maybe be breaking even on it. That's not a good number, you know? You'd like there to be more than that.And if it goes on like that, eventually, some politician is going to say, “Oh, maybe they should be regulated like public utilities,” because they kind of are right? And I would think that anybody who did get into Oracle-izing would be—you know, accelerate that happening. Having said that, we do live in the atmosphere of 21st-century capitalism, and growth is the God that must be worshiped at all costs. Who knows. It's a cloudy future. Hard to see.Corey: It really is. I also want to be clear, on some level, that with Google's current position, if they weren't taking a small loss at least, on these things, I would worry. Like, wait, you're trying to catch AWS and you don't have anything better to invest that money into than just well time to start taking profits from it. So, I can see both sides of that one.Tim: Right. And as I keep saying, I've already said once during this slot, you know, the total cloud spend in the world is probably on the order of one or two-hundred billion per annum, and global IT is in multiple trillions. So, [laugh] there's a lot more space for growth. Years and years worth of it.Corey: Yeah. The challenge, too, is that people are worried about this long-term strategic point of view. So, one thing you talked about in your blog post is the idea of using hosted open-source solutions. Like, instead of using Kinesis, you'd wind up using Kafka or instead of using DynamoDB you use their managed Cassandra service—or as I think of it Amazon Basics Cassandra—and effectively going down the path of letting them manage this thing, but you then have a theoretical Exodus path. Where do you land on that?Tim: I think that speaks to a lot of people's concerns, and I've had conversations with really smart people about that who like that idea. Now, to be realistic, it doesn't make migration easy because you've still got all the CI and CD and monitoring and management and scaling and alarms and alerts and paging and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, wrapped around it. So, it's not as though you could just pick up your managed Kafka off AWS and drop a huge installation onto GCP easily. But at least, you know, your data plan APIs are the same, so a lot of your code would probably still run okay. So, it's a plausible path forward. And when people say, “I want to do that,” well, it does mean that you can't go all serverless. But it's not a totally insane path forward.Corey: So, one last point in your blog post that I think a lot of people think about only after they get bitten by it is the idea of data gravity. I alluded earlier in our conversation to data egress charges, but my experience has been that where your data lives is effectively where the rest of your cloud usage tends to aggregate. How do you see it?Tim: Well, it's a real issue, but I think it might perhaps be a little overblown. People throw the term petabytes around, and people don't realize how big a petabyte is. A petabyte is just an insanely huge amount of data, and the notion of transmitting one over the internet is terrifying. And there are lots of enterprises that have multiple petabytes around, and so they think, “Well, you know, it would take me 26 years to transmit that, so I can't.”And they might be wrong. The internet's getting faster all time. Did you notice? I've been able to move some—for purely personal projects—insane amounts of data, and it gets there a lot faster than you did. Secondly, in the case of AWS Snowmobile, we have an existence proof that you can do exabyte-ish scale data transfers in the time it takes to drive a truck across the country.Corey: Inbound only. Snowmobiles are not—at least according to public examples—are valid for Exodus.Tim: But you know, this is kind of place where regulatory action might come into play if what the people were doing was seen to be abusive. I mean, there's an existence proof you can do this thing. But here's another point. So, I suppose you have, like, 15 petabytes—that's an insane amount of data—displayed in your corporate application. So, are you actually using that to run the application, or is a huge proportion of that stuff just logs and data gathered of various kinds that's being used in analytics applications and AI models and so on?Do you actually need all that data to actually run your app? And could you in fact, just pick up the stuff you need for your app, move it to a different cloud provider from there and leave your analytics on the first one? Not a totally insane idea.Corey: It's not a terrible idea at all. It comes down to the idea as well of when you're trying to run a query against a bunch of that data, do you need all the data to transit or just the results of that query, as well? It's a question of, can you move the compute closer to the data as opposed to the data to where the compute lives?Tim: Well, you know and a lot of those people who have those huge data pools have it sitting on S3, and a lot of it migrated off into Glacier, so it's not as if you could get at it in milliseconds anyhow. I just ask myself, “How much data can anybody actually use in a day? In the course of satisfying some transaction requests from a customer?” And I think it's not petabyte. It just isn't.Now, there are—okay, there are exceptions. There's the intelligence community, there's the oil drilling community, there are some communities who genuinely will use insanely huge seas of data on a routine basis, but you know, I think that's kind of a corner case, so before you shake your head and say, “Ah, they'll never move because the data gravity,” you know… you need to prove that to me and I might be a little bit skeptical.Corey: And I think that is probably a very fair request. Just tell me what it is you're going to be doing here to validate the idea that is in your head because the most interesting lies I've found customers tell isn't intentionally to me or anyone else; it's to themselves. The narrative of what they think they're doing from the early days takes root, and never mind the fact that, yeah, it turns out that now that you've scaled out, maybe development isn't 80% of your cloud bill anymore. You learn things and your understanding of what you're doing has to evolve with the evolution of the applications.Tim: Yep. It's a fun time to be around. I mean, it's so great; right at the moment lock-in just isn't that big an issue. And let's be clear—I'm sure you'll agree with me on this, Corey—is if you're a startup and you're trying to grow and scale and prove you've got a viable business, and show that you have exponential growth and so on, don't think about lock-in; just don't go near it. Pick a cloud provider, pick whichever cloud provider your CTO already knows how to use, and just go all-in on them, and use all their most advanced features and be serverless if you can. It's the only sane way forward. You're short of time, you're short of money, you need growth.Corey: “Well, what if you need to move strategically in five years?” You should be so lucky. Great. Deal with it then. Or, “Well, what if we want to sell to retail as our primary market and they hate AWS?”Well, go all-in on a provider; probably not that one. Pick a different provider and go all in. I do not care which cloud any given company picks. Go with what's right for you, but then go all in because until you have a compelling reason to do otherwise, you're going to spend more time solving global problems locally.Tim: That's right. And we've never actually said this probably because it's something that both you and I know at the core of our being, but it probably needs to be said that being multi-cloud is expensive, right? Because the nouns and verbs that describe what clouds do are different in Google-land and AWS-land; they're just different. And it's hard to think about those things. And you lose the capability of using the advanced serverless stuff. There are a whole bunch of costs to being multi-cloud.Now, maybe if you're existentially afraid of lock-in, you don't care. But for I think most normal people, ugh, it's expensive.Corey: Pay now or pay later, you will pay. Wouldn't you ideally like to see that dollar go as far as possible? I'm right there with you because it's not just the actual infrastructure costs that's expensive, it costs something far more dear and expensive, and that is the cognitive expense of having to think about both of these things, not just how each cloud provider works, but how each one breaks. You've done this stuff longer than I have; I don't think that either of us trust a system that we don't understand the failure cases for and how it's going to degrade. It's, “Oh, right. You built something new and awesome. Awesome. How does it fall over? What direction is it going to hit, so what side should I not stand on?” It's based on an understanding of what you're about to blow holes in.Tim: That's right. And you know, I think particularly if you're using AWS heavily, you know that there are some things that you might as well bet your business on because, you know, if they're down, so is the rest of the world, and who cares? And, other things, eh, maybe a little chance here. So, understanding failure modes, understanding your stuff, you know, the cost of sharp edges, understanding manageability issues. It's not obvious.Corey: It's really not. Tim, I want to thank you for taking the time to go through this, frankly, excellent post with me. If people want to learn more about how you see things, and I guess how you view the world, where's the best place to find you?Tim: I'm on Twitter, just @timbray T-I-M-B-R-A-Y. And my blog is at tbray.org, and that's where that piece you were just talking about is, and that's kind of my online presence.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to it in the [show notes 00:37:42]. Thanks so much for being so generous with your time. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.Tim: Well, it's always fun to talk to somebody who has shared passions, and we clearly do.Corey: Indeed. Tim Bray principal at Textuality Services. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment that you then need to take to all of the other podcast platforms out there purely for redundancy, so you don't get locked into one of them.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Und plötzlich war der Ball drin! Timo Hübers hat in Bochum sein erstes Bundesliga-Tor geschossen und sich dann auch gleich ein paar Sprüche anhören müssen. Geschenkt, denn Timo ist nicht nur Zweikampfstark sondern auch verbal ziemlich schlagfertig. Überzeugt euch selbst. FC-Reporter Guido Ostrowski hat sich mit dem "Blondschopf", der nicht nur aussieht wie ein Student, sodern auch einer ist zum Videocall verabredet. Die beiden haben sich aber nicht nur über das Premieren-Tor unterhalten, sondern auch die vermeidbaren Treffer der Bochumer, über die Rolle des Abwehrchefs, einen möglichen Neuzugang und den kommenden Gegner SC Freiburg. Ach ja und was macht eigentlich Timos Masterarbeit? Hört selbst...