Human Nurture

This podcast is also available on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl3TlWDBCvY&t=190s

This podcast is also available on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-t3MTAHY_c

This podcast is also available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkKeflNzbgQ

You can also watch this webinar on YouTube: https://youtu.be/UgGAl4fq5KY  

The video of this webinar is available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg3MP5KkmQg

You can also watch this Webinar on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4GWYuA_BeA

Dear Colleague- I hope this finds you well. I'm writing to share an exciting resource and ask for feedback.  As  you know, I've produced a podcast for a number of years. I've recently recorded the first of a series of interviews with my longtime mentor, Hans Stahlschmidt, PhD. Hans is a true master of the craft of psychotherapy and part of the PACT Core Faculty. In addition to Hans being able to fluently translate PACT ideas about secure functioning, he has developed his own set of ideas about the therapeutic process that I am so excited to share. Over the course of a few interviews, I am wanting to capture Hans's ideas, attitude and approach to being a therapist and the practice of psychotherapy. My hope is that you will listen to this introductory interview and provide some feedback. Also, feel free to email me jason@jasonbrand.com   CLICK HERE FOR FEEDBACK FORM You can watch the interview by CLICKING HERE.   Thank you! Jason Brand, LCSW  

Hello there. We have arrived at the final episode of Season 2 of Human Nurture. I'm Jason Brand, your host, a PACT level 3 therapist out of Berkeley, California. What a journey this has been— pandemic, shelter in place, tele-health, three couples and a whole lot of consultant interviews… AND… we made it. I've got a great final episode for you. Krista Jordan, PhD joins me. Krista was the perfect consultant match for Charley and Yael. Like Charley and Yael, Krista threw her whole self into the process. I love her basic philosophy, “that all humans are imperfect, but that we can grow and change in deep and profound ways given adequate support and guidance”. She's not afraid to point out areas where growth is necessary and she is so good at providing support and guidance. She's out of Austin Texas, she's has a PHD in clinical psychology, I really enjoyed working with her to craft the episode and having the opportunity to sit down and talk shop. I can't think of a better final interview for the season.

Hello and welcome to the final half of the final clinical interview of this season of Human Nurture. I'm Jason Brand, this season has been a deep dive into “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!?” I've been answering it along with 3 wonderful couples and whole lot of consultants.  Okay, without further ado, the second half of the Charley and Yael final clinical interview.    

Hello and welcome to The Human Nurture Podcast. I am your host Jason Brand, a couples therapist living and working in Berkeley, California. This season we have been asking the question, “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!?” And we are down to the final couple and the final clinical interview of this season. Back again with Charley and Yael in their final clinical interview. They are a young couple and they have now become familiar enough with themselves and their relationship to see areas where they're not able to depend upon each other for a sense of safety and security.  For Charley, this insecurity can be heard in his difficulty knowing how much to hold emotion inside of himself and his worries and frustrations about flooding Yael with his emotion. And in Yael, it can be heard in the way she comforts Charley but feels she does not get enough comfort from him in return.  In this interview you will hear a great example of two people who so want to be able to take care of each other but keep getting left with a basic sense of unfairness in their interactions. The work of couples therapy is to help them with the growing up process, understanding and translating the burdens of the past and having a more honest and vulnerable discussion of the burdens of their current life situation.  So let's take a listen as I work to help this young couple to seize moments where they can hold the challenges and burdens together and hold them as opportunities to build closeness, safety and security.

Hi there. Welcome to Human Nurture. I'm your host Jason Brand a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.  This season of the podcast, what I've been doing is answering the question-- "How does a couples therapists learn to do that?" And I'm answering that question through actual couple interviews and then follow up interviews with consultants who help me to think through what happened in the room between me and that couple. Today, we've got a consultation session with my colleague and mentor Patricia Hart.    "We say in PACT, we're working on the relationship, right? Our job is the relationship, but of course, in order to have a couple of relationship there's important individual growth that goes with it.  I have to be able to manage myself so that I can manage you and I have to be able to know what it is that I need from you and then I have to be able to ask for what I want. [So] I can be the person who can go after what I want, including in a relationship. And then also know about that well enough, so I can put [it] aside and deal with you. So you know this developmental step of a two person psychology, which is necessary for a relationship? [It] requires a lot of individual growth. It seemed to me that's a lot of what you were doing with [Charley and Yael in this session]" That is a quote from the interview that you're about to hear. It captures, the support that she gave me, the overall framework and an understanding of what I was up to in the session. So helpful.  So who was Patricia Hart? Patricia's a long time Berkeley therapist with 40 years of experience. She's a PACT instructor, she's just wonderful with couples and she's a wonderful consultant. So, take a listen. Patricia Hart PhD and me talking about Charley and Yael. Thanks so much for tuning in   

Hi, welcome to Human Nurture. I'm your host Jason Brand, couples therapists out of Berkeley, California. This is the second half of the second couple clinical interview with Charley and Yael in my office.   So we pick the interview up at the point where Charley's describing the bind he finds himself in when he gets angry during conflicts with the Yael. He wants to communicate his frustrations so he can feel better and they can work conflicts out together, however, if he gets to fiery his delivery, Yael's only able to hear the anger and not the pain underneath. Charley fear's that tamping down his anger runs the risk of  losing his voice. (You will also remember, from the beginning of the interview, that Charlie feels that Yael does not do her internal work.) So from Charley's point of view, Yael gets overly focused on Charley's anger and does not look at her part in the conflict.  That leaves him as the only one who sees the challenge and is trying to process it.   He's left with a terrible choice, speak up in a way that alienates him from Yael or being heard in a way that does not address the injustice that he sees in the situation. This, you will hear has deep historical roots with his family and with his mom in particular and he also worries that it runs the risk of alienating him in the future from his daughters. So, we pick it up at the bind. Charley and Yael interview 2 part 2 here we go.  

Hi there. You're listening to Human Nurture. I'm your host Jason Brand. A PACT Level 3 therapist out of Berkeley, California. And this season, we're asking the question, how does a couple's therapist learned to do that? So, we give you an insider's view into couples therapy and the consultation sessions between couples therapists.  What you're about to hear is an actual couple talking about their experience, we call it a couple clinical interview.  Let's get you grounded for this episode. It was recorded in my office because there was that brief window in COVID between the initial outbreak and the Delta spike, where people were actually coming in. And I was able to squeeze in a few sessions with Charley and Yael. You'll hear the sound. It's a little rough in the beginning, we're getting settled.  I left that part in, because I think it's important for you to get a sense of the good rapport that I have with Charley and Yael. We're excited to see each other in person and you'll hear a genuine feeling of warmth and ease in the room.  Before the session, I had a really helpful conversation with my colleague, Jeff Cohen. He's also a Level 3 PACT person in Berkeley.  And Jeff gave me some good insights into how to bring forward the person in a relationship who says there's no room for their feelings.  So within this couple, Charley is the identified feeler, meaning that his feelings are often the ones seen as being too big to manage.  But as we know in PACT-- where there's one, there's always the other. So one goal of mine in this session was to help them to look at how their current ways of managing feelings leaves them both alone with the feelings. The challenge I had though, was that in the room, I also had to help Yael find her feelings and amplify them so that they could get expressed for the couple to hold. You'll hear me repeatedly slowing Yael down and really focusing on her experience Then, I'm going to cross question to Charlie about those feelings as  a way to amplify them further.  That's enough to get you settled. Here we go, first, half couple clinical interview, Charley and Yael In my office.  

This is Human Nurture. I'm Jason Brand, a couples therapist and we are asking the question– “How does a couples therapist learn to do their Job?”  Today we've a consultant interview with Beth O'Brien. Beth is out of Fort Collins, Colorado. She's a Level 3 PACT therapist, she's a highly trained trauma therapist and I found out in the interview that she's also a yoga teacher. I've always known Beth to be a highly trained clinician and a relatable person, however, what stood out to me in this interview is her skills as a teacher. We unpack the Charley and Yael initial interview and look at concepts like - the window of tolerance, couple regulation strategies and trauma.  Beth does a great job of making these concepts understandable and (most importantly if you ask me) she explains them in the context of healing. So take a listen to my wonderful colleague and I discussing the first clinical interview with Charley and Yael.

Welcome back to The Human Nurture Podcast where we ask the question– “How does a couples therapist learn to do that??!” I'm your host Jason Brand, a couples therapist trained in PACT - a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy. Today, we are going to jump right into the second half of the first clinical interview with Charley and Yael.  This episode is great because Charley and Yael paint a vivid picture of how early history impacts future relationships. Listen for how they regulate each other as the history comes to the surface, how they encourage openness, protect each other and present me with areas where they feel like they need the help of couples therapy. That's all you need to know... Here we go...

Hello, and welcome to The Human Nurture Podcast. I'm Jason Brand a couples therapist from The City of Berkeley in The State of California and I'm your host. This season, we're asking the question– “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!?” And we're doing it through long form interviews with actual couples and then feedback sessions where I sit down to talk about the couple with another PACT trained couples therapist (PACT stands for A Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy).  In this episode, we are breaking the seal on a new couple. Charley and Yael, and they're going to actually lead us out of Season 2.  Charley and Yael, it's hard to write their name without a smile.  You will hear from the first moment that they are a brave and trusting couple and so open to being helped. They are a young couple in their early thirties and they've come to do some braiding. What do I mean by braiding? Well, currently they've got some areas where things feel knotted up between them, it's hard to differentiate what belongs where. Our job is going to be integration. We're going to be trying to take all these different strands, make something more cohesive out of them and give Charley and Yael the tools to do this braiding as a team. A few things you need to know for this first interview. First, we recorded over zoom and it's during the height of the 2020 Shelter in Place in the middle of the COVID pandemic. Charley is actually my barber. Actually, he's not my barber anymore, however, he would still be my barber if he hadn't moved to a new shop. (He's a great barber.) Before this season of the podcast was recorded, while he was cutting my hair, I told Charley about my plan for the season. He showed some interest, he asked Yael and they agreed to participate. I had never met Yael before these interviews. A few things that you should listen for in this interview. First, is that this is a great example of therapeutic alliance and the things that flow from it when it is strong and positive. The second is how the session moves back and forth between examples of current day relationship challenges and early experiences with families of origin. Also, how hard I work (sometimes gracefully, sometimes not so much) to help them to remain on even footing when it comes to their current and past relationship, strengths and challenges.  So, I think that's what you need. I've got a bunch of interviews with Charlie and Yael and some really great consultant interviews coming up for you over the next few months. So settle in for the ride and… Off we go. 

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hello again, this is Jason Brand, the host of the Human Nurture Podcast. I'm a couples therapist in Berkeley, California and as you know, in this season, we've been exploring the “how to” of couples therapy.  This episode is a little bit of a departure from the usual format. Editing my own interviews always comes along with some discomfort. After 30 some-odd episodes, I've gotten used to some of that discomfort, the discomfort of listening to myself and imagining how you might be hearing it. But as I edited the two interviews I recorded with John Guy, I noticed a different kind of discomfort and it was clearly because we were discussing race.  I tried putting this discomfort into words with colleagues, however, I felt like something was missing in the conversation. With my colleagues of color, I felt like I was asking something of them that they couldn't really give to me, a kind of seal of approval that I was doing a good job. And with my white colleagues, I felt like the conversation kind of fell apart and just came back to this well-worn idea of “yeah, talking about race is challenging.”  None of this is a comment about my colleagues. I see it 100% is my own need to do some thinking and to open up some locked areas inside myself.  So I was settling into the idea that it was best just to leave this, that I'd take it up on my own, but not included as part of the podcast and that's when an article arrived from Inga Gentile. (You will remember Inga from a couple episodes back, please check out that episode, it's wonderful.) The 2021 article entitled, “The White Man in the Room: Finding My Position as a White Therapist” was published by the British Journal of Psychotherapy and is written by Daniel Weir. It gave me a way to move forward and express some of the things that I was thinking about and wanted to bring to the podcast.  The article helped me to see that my discomfort was most pronounced in the brief moments when I had to define my own racial identity as a white man. I can't say that I even noticed this discomfort in the interviews with John, I only saw it when I had to create something coherent in the editing process and only then it was in these brief flashes that I caught of myself.  The article gave me some different tools for thinking about why it might be hard to see my own identity.  It also makes some great links to psychoanalytic ideas and provides some perspectives that I found immediately useful.  So who is Daniel Weir? He's in private practice in Southwest London, this paper was written as part of his qualifying to become a psychoanalytic psychotherapist in 2020. I'm excited to have him on the show. He also said that you can email him directly if you want to read his paper. His email is contact@daniel-weir.com.

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hi again. Welcome back. If you've come here for an interview between an actual couple and an actual couples therapist and you're asking yourself the question, “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?” Well, you're in the right place.  I'm Jason Brand, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in Berkeley and a PACT Level Three therapist. This is Human Nurture.  A couple of sentences to set the stage: Ron and Chakaheir, they've been married 33 years and they came in because they have drifted apart.  By this third interview, they've made real progress by articulating some of the lonely feelings and as you will hear in this episode, they're starting to find each other again.  We've got two more episodes in the Ron and Chakahier series and then we move on to the next couple but let's not get ahead of things. It was such a pleasure getting to know Ron and Chakaheir and being allowed such an intimate view into their lives.  I'd love to hear your thoughts. Feel free to reach out to me at jason@jasonbrand.com.

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hi there. Welcome to the Human Nurture Podcast. I'm Jason Brand, a couples therapist and your host. This season we're interviewing couples and getting consultation from my fellow PACT therapists.  The podcast gives you an insider's view into how a couples therapist learns to do their job. In this episode, I get another opportunity to sit down with my colleague, John Guy, to discuss the Ron and Chakahier episodes.  John Guy, a couples therapist from Seattle, has a background in mindfulness and PACT. He's very helpful in providing consultation about how to identify and think about the ways nationality, religion, gender, race, class, and sexual orientation may add layers of challenge to life inside and outside of therapy. In that first interview, I invited him to discuss the question, “How does a white couples therapist from Berkeley think about issues of race and culture with a black couple from Alabama?” I'm inviting him back to continue that discussion and because I love the way John positions himself as a therapist. He manages to be excited, serious, relaxed, authoritative, and accessible all at once. I've very much enjoyed both interviews with John and I'm excited to share this one with you. So what are we waiting for? Let's go.  

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hi there. Time to get going on another leg of this season-long journey into “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?” I'm Jason Brand, this podcast is called Human Nurture and in this episode, I've got another wonderful PACT therapist along for the ride. My colleague Inga Gentile joins us from Oslo, Norway. Inga is a licensed MFT and a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. She's an original PACT faculty member and she's been studying with Stan Tatkin since the days of the original Calabasas study group. Inga joins me to think about the second couple of the season, Ron and Chakahier. If you don't know, here you go… Married 33 years, their presenting challenge was that they drifted apart. In the first and second interviews, they ventured into this drift and found so much for us to discuss. Inga and I start off talking about the mismanagement of Thirds and work our way towards a beautiful idea about how the drift has created a sense of timelessness between Ron and Chakahier and this means that at any moment, they can find each other again.  Each consultant has given me a way of holding the PACT frame and I love Inga's frame. She describes how close proximity triggers psychobiological reflexes, and this gives the information we need to do “Both/And”, showing what is between the couple and seeing what is possible for the couple. I'm getting excited thinking about my consultation with Inga, but enough telling, you can simply click play on the interview.    

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hi there, I'm Jason Brand, I'm a couples therapist out of Berkeley, California and this is the Human Nurture Podcast. Going to keep this intro brief to get you quickly to the second half of the Ron and Chakaheir episode. If you're just jumping in now, please go back an episode and check the first half. Going to pick this up at that place where we left off last time, the couple was describing how they, "shut it down" and "withdraw". Thanks so much for tuning-in. ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

A NOTE FROM JASON: This is Human Nurture. I'm Jason brand, a psychotherapist in Berkeley, and the podcast covers the head-scratching question of how does a couples therapist learns to do that? A few episodes back, you met Ron and Chakahier. They're out of the Southern part of the United States and they've established separate domains inside their home. Ron's home-life happens inside the den while Chakahier's takes place in the bedroom. In that first interview, they described how two people, that desire connection and are just down the hallway from each other can struggle to come together without walking on eggshells and creating hurt feelings. So today, what you're going to hear is the first half of my follow-up interview with Ron and Chakahier.  You get a real sense that between interviews they worked hard to find each other. and in this interview, you really can feel into the ebb and flow of them daring to be more vulnerable with their feelings, and then pulling back into fears and frustrations (totally a natural part of the process). One note: In the interview, I'm in my office in Berkeley and they're in a hotel room in Cincinnati. They are there for a funeral. You'll hear various things going on as they navigate family stuff- family business and family needs. so we make room for that and then come back to the work. I think that's all you need for today. Thank you for listening and away we go.  

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hi there.  Ready to get prepped for another clinical interview with Ron and Chakaher?  Well, this is the place. What you're about to hear is a conversation with my producer, Margaret Martin. You will recognize Margaret from a couple of episodes back, she's a wonderful PACT 3 therapists out of Austin, Texas, In this episode, Margaret helps me to get ready for my follow-up interview with Ron and Chakahier. They are a couple out of Alabama. They have been married 33 years and have vibrant lives, however, inside their home they've drifted apart. Margaret's going to me set to sit with the natural vicissitudes of a couple who has drifted apart by helping them be in the room together as they navigate being close and then drifting apart. Margaret does a great job of sparking curiosity inside of me. I'm going to then turn around, in the coming up episode, and spark curiosity inside of Ron and Chakahier. Thank you so much for tuning-in.  JB   ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture.   

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hi again. In this episode I've got my colleague, John Guy along with me to reflect on the Ron and Chakahier initial couple clinical interview.  John hails out of Seattle and he has a private practice seeing couples, a background in facilitating groups focused on race and gender and is a practicing Buddhist. I called John because I was looking for someone who is both a PACT trained therapist and could help me to think about issues of race and gender in couples therapy.  John delivers on both of these fronts and made a number of comments in this interview that are gems of perspective on couples and just being a good human being.  Comments that keep popping into my mind as I go about my days since we spoke .  So take a listen and let me know what you think, jason@jasonbrand.com ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

A NOTE FROM JASON: I'm excited to introduce to you our second couple of the season, Ron and Chakahier.  I suggest that you go back an episode and listen to the 10 minute introduction that I did with my producer, Margaret Martin, to get situated for this interview.  This is the first of three interviews that I did with Ron and Chakahier and of course there will be a bunch of expert PACT consultant interviews along the way.  I'd love to hear from you!  You can let me know what you think - jason@jasonbrand.com.  Thanks for listening, JB ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hello and welcome to our second couple deep dive of the season!   This season we are asking the question-- How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!? To introduce the second couple of the season, my producer for this leg of the journey Margaret Martin joins me.  Margaret is out of Austin Texas and she's a level 3 PACT therapist.  She's also well versed in ISTDP, EMDR and SE. Don't let the alphabet soup of modalities confuse you, she's down to earth, she has a common sense approach and she gives you a genuine feel of someone who loves her job and the craft of psychotherapy. We thought it would be good to give you an overview, a kind “what to listen for” in the upcoming Ron and Chakahier first clinical interview.  The question that we get you set for is “How does a couples therapist learn to help a couple that has drifted apart?”   Please leave a 5star review on apple podcasts, recommend this to your friends and family and reach out if you have something to share.

A NOTE FROM JASON: Greetings, this is the final episode of the first leg of this three part journey. Today we wrap up with our first couple Bart and Susan.   In this first series of episodes, there has been a conversation going on behind the scenes with my producer Carolyn Sharp. The conversation has been about not only the content of what you have heard so far but also a more general conversation about this nascent podcast. Carolyn is a level 3 PACT therapist out of Seattle, Washington and like I say at the end of the episode, she is one of my go-to people for honest truth. She does it with humor and humility and I have so appreciated her insights in bringing you these episodes.   So, as we say goodbye to Bart and Susan and get ready to move on to the next couple, Carolyn and I thought that it would be good to give you a sense of the behind the scenes conversation and talk more generally about the process of making these episodes.   A listening note for those who are keeping score at home: The question I am answering this season is of course-- “How does a couples therapist learn to do that?!?”   And over the course of the Bart and Susan interviews this question has evolved and been refined. It began with the issue as Bart and Susan initially presented it: -- How does a couples therapist learn to deal with differences around money, time and work within a couple? Then after the first clinical interview it became: -- How does a couples therapist learn to manage feelings of inadequacy in a couple? And, then in the final interview with Bart and Susan: -- How does a couples therapist learn to navigate a void that has developed in a couple? In this episode, we refine the question further to: -- How does a couples therapist learn to help a couple that presents with one person who is over functioning and the other who is under functioning? Hint:  It's not as simple as getting the under functioning person to just function better.  I like this as the final question for Bart and Susan because it seems to hold the complexity of their struggles  and has a logical simplicity.   Try it on for size and let me know what you think.

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hello!  So we are beginning to wrap up our time with the first couple of the season, Bart and Susan.  What you are about to hear is a consultation interview with my level 3 PACT colleague, Debbie Campbell out of Dallas Texas.   I don't know if I've ever read a list of a persons background that better describes their clinical style and approach than Debbie's.  She a student and practitioner of sport psychology, positive psychology, couples counseling, psychodrama, and neuroscience.  You'll hear it in her, she's like a performance athlete, personal trainer, PACT expert and brain nerd with real warmth and compassion all in one package.   I came to Debbie with a big question:  How does a couples therapist learn to use the patterns of arousal regulation and understanding of developmental neuroscience to create safer and more secure relationships?  If that just sounds like confusing jargon, well you are in the right place to make it all a whole lot more clear.   One note, in listening back to the interview, we talk a great deal about pacing.  How fast or slow should a therapist go in couples therapy.  I think what we are really talking about but don't name directly is pressure- so we also focus on -  How does a couples therapist know how much pressure to apply to bring about change in a couple?  The answer to this has lots to do with arousal and neuroscience and attachment.  So, hold onto your hat, it's an action packed episode that  I hope you enjoy!  JB ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture.   

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hello from Berkeley-  We all know the therapy cliches about how we end up marrying our parents or how our early childhoods lay out the behavior patterns of our functioning as adults.  The cliches are true-- one way that we learn to help couples is by understanding models of human development and early relationship patterns.   The therapists who has a deep understanding of the science of attachment and utilizes it well to help couples can heal old attachment wounds and move development forward.  It's a powerful tool.  So This episode answers the question... How does a couples therapist learn how to connect early attachment to the current day challenges that couples face?!   I am very fortunate to have a rock-solid consultant for this dive into attachment.  My fellow PACT couples therapist Melissa Ferrari.  Melissa is based in Australia and her curiosity and enthusiasm for helping couples is infectious.   I want to pull out a quote from the episode that really stuck with me, Melissa asks- “How does this couple lay together, knowing we both feel inadequate together and that's okay?”  If you have been following along this far you will know that “this couple” is Bart and Susan and that addressing feelings of inadequacy has been one of the main themes and struggles in the interviews.   Melissa asks us to imagine how couples therapy could build a safe enough container for Bart and Susan to share their feelings of inadequacy about being deeply dependent upon each other as a way to move the relationship forward.  It's really a beautiful way to frame their challenges and it rests on a solid foundation of helping to heal old attachment wounds through building safety and security in Bart and Susan's current relationship.  To me, it very moving, exciting  and poetic.  I hope you feel the same when you take a listen.  JB ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hey, I hope you got a chance to listen to the first half of the second interview with Bart and Susan.  Just in case you are not up to speed, Bart and Susan are an engaged couple in their 50's who have been together for 3 years.  They face challenges around, “money, work and time” that keep them from moving securely towards marriage.  In this second interview you get a real sense of how Bart's enthusiasm and Susan's thoughtfulness act as the glue that brought them together.  The challenge is that these very strengths appear quite different under the microscope of depending deeply on each other.   Susan's thoughtfulness comes with worry and Bart's enthusiasm lacks follow through.This worked well enough when they were on their own, now they realize that they are going to need to learn together how to become a thoughtful and enthusiastic team.  In order to do this, Bart is learning how to better hold worry and Susan is learning how to better hold enthusiasm.  (Notice the many times in this interview Bart presents to Susan how he is trying to be more thoughtful and Susan tries to hold onto his enthusiasm.) In order to grow in these ways, they have to stop the patterns that led to going into destructive self protective places. Susan has to slow her worry about her future with Bart and he has to slow his over promising without organization and follow through.  They are both happy to report that they have stopped themselves from going into some of these old patterns but not functioning in these ways also leaves a void between them. Finding a way to help the couple venture into that void and experience, “a gentle unfolding of the soul” (as Rob Fisher put it in Season 1 - Episode 11) is the job of the couples therapist.  How do you learn to do that?!? Well, take a listen to my clinical interview and then listen to my two follow up interviews (arriving next month) with Melissa Ferrari and Debbie Campbell as we take up that very question. Thank you for tuning in and I hope you enjoy.  

A NOTE FROM JASON: Hello and thanks for listening.  So far this season we met our first couple, Bart and Susan, and then listened in on my consultation session with Hans Stahlschmidt.  It's now time to hear a follow up session with Bart and Susan.   In the first interview with Bart and Susan, we heard the couple describe the very different ways they manage emotions and how this was keeping them from being able to build a solid foundation for a future together.  They used a metaphor of boxes and how Bart puts emotional overwhelm into boxes and Susan has no boxes at all.  They described how this leads to arguments, shutdowns and hurt feelings that keep big things like “money, work and time” from ever being figured out.   In consultation, Hans helped me to see that they were describing ways that they both feel alone during times of great stress, how these are likely patterns developed in their early childhoods and how this leaves them vulnerable to feeling inadequate in their current relationship.  He then helped me to think through ways that couple therapy could help them to learn to undo old patterns and dare to risk trusting deeply in each other. In this second interview, that process of undoing old patterns and learning to deepen trust has progressed, however, it is not easy going.  As Bart learns to open boxes, he becomes more hopeful that he can change.  As Susan puts her feelings into boxes she begins to feel hopeless that things are going to change enough to satisfy both of their needs.  Susan waits for Bart to change with worries about a void between them and the question of will they be able to find each other quickly enough to stay together becomes the focus of the couple's clinical interview. That should give you some context for the first half of the second couple clinical with Bart and Susan. The next three episodes are going to consultation interviews that wrap up my work with Bart and Susan. ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture.    

A NOTE FROM JASON:   Hello - I hope you got a sense of what it's like to be in the couples therapist's chair in the clinical interview with Bart and Susan.  In this episode, I'm excited to give you a sense of what a consultation interview between therapists sounds like.  My colleague and mentor Hans Stahlschmidt joins me as we discuss his impressions of my work with Bart and Susan.  Thanks for joining me!  JB ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture. 

A NOTE FROM JASON:   Hi Again- In this second half of our first couple clinical interview we finish up the interview with Bart and Susan.  On the surface, their challenge in moving their relationship forward is about money, time and work, however, as we get into the session we find that the question of managing feelings of inadequacy is really where the help is needed.     ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture.

A NOTE FROM JASON:   Hello Again- In this first half of our first couple clinical interview we meet Bart and Susan.  On the surface, their challenge in moving forward in their relation is about money, time and work, however, as we get into the session we find that the question of managing feelings of inadequacy is really where the help is needed.   ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture.

A NOTE FROM JASON:   Hi there- In this introductory episode you will meet the 3 couples that will be featured throughout the season, hear about the process of making season 2 of the podcast and get some tips for listening with the ear of a psychobiologist.  Thank you for checking it out.  JB  ABOUT SEASON 2 of HUMAN NURTURE: Hosted by Jason Brand, LCSW a practicing couples therapist in Berkeley, California.   In Season 2 of Human Nurture we will cover PACT in Training.  PACT stands for a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy and has a reputation for effectively helping the most challenging situations that come up between couples.   This season, we will answer the question, "How does a couples therapist learn to help with THAT?!?"   "THAT?!?" could be any challenge that a couple brings into counseling-- from infidelity, to arguments about money, to processing past trauma, to decisions about the health and well being of a child.  This season gives an insider's view to the world of couples therapy through interviews with actual couples and consultation interviews with other expert PACT therapists.  If you are a couples therapist looking to sharpen your skills, or if you are just curious about how couples therapists learn to do their job, tune into this season of Human Nurture.

We have arrived at the final episode of Season 1 of Human Nurture!Not only is this the finale, it is also about attachment theory-- one of PACT's main ingredients -- and it features the renowned researcher Ed Tronick.Ed joins us with his co-author Claudia Gold to discuss their recently released book, The Power of Discord. Ed and Claudia offer a take on attachment theory that focuses on growth through the process of mismatch, mess and repair. They look at this process through Claudia's clinical work and Ed's attachment research with care-givers and young children through the Still Face Experiment.It is a heart-felt interview that touches on the current discord in our lives as COVID-19 spreads across our world and the murder of George Floyd reverberates through protests in our streets. We are also joined by the founder of PACT, Stan Tatkin, who provides us with his thoughts on the interview with Ed and Claudia, attachment theory and the overwhelming challenges of this moment in our lives.Time-----00:00:00 - 00:01:45 -Jason Introduction00:01:45-01:01:16 - Jason, Ed Tronick and Claudia Gold01:01:16-01:18:13 - Jason and Stan TatkinResources-----The Power of Discord on Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/Power-Discord-Relationships-Building-Resilience/dp/0316488879Still Face Experiment example video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apzXGEbZht0Ed Tronick WikiPedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_TronickClaudia Golde's website and books:https://www.claudiamgoldmd.com/ 

In April of 2020, Rob Fisher joined us for the Somatic Episode (Episode #11) and I rushed it out because it provided some much needed grounding as COVID-19 began spreading to the United States and we entered into those early days of sheltering in place.  Releasing the episode quickly meant that I was unable to get Stan Tatkin's take on the interview with Rob.  It is now June of 2020, I caught up with Stan and he provides his great sense of humor and wise PACT-context on the somatic interview with Rob Fisher.

We are getting close to the end of this first season of the Human Nurture Podcast as we do our deep dive into the underlying elements of the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy.  This episode is a second look at somatic therapy as seen through the perspective of Marjorie Rand, a long time Integrative Body Psychotherapist. Marjorie co-authored the book Body, Self and Soul with the founder of IBP, Jack Rosenberg and has extensive training in yoga, gestalt and somatic therapies.  The episode is a nice compliment to Episode 11 which featured Rob Fisher and also covers somatic therapy.  Marjorie offers great examples of how to bring the body into our work with couples through experiential interventions. She will make you a believer in the use of breath and connection to the body as a way to sustain ourselves and remain deeply engaged both inside and outside the consulting room.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:02:12 -Jason Introduction0:02:19-01:07:13 - Jason and Marjorie RandResources-----IBP Website: http://www.ibponline.org/about.phpMarjorie's Book: Body, Self and Soul:https://www.amazon.com/Body-Self-Soul-Sustaining-Integration-ebook/dp/B00Y3CCN8I/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2BC0LKFWRSLFF&dchild=1&keywords=body+self+and+soul&qid=1590882220&sprefix=body+self+and+soul%2Caps%2C217&sr=8-1IBP Global Outreach From Dr. Beverly Morse (Co-founder of IBP) and Margie Gayle.  An interview that introduces four breathing techniques specifically for tele-health:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjtdvSMzm5o&feature=youtu.be  

In this episode we delve into the underlying PACT element of neuroscience in interviews with Lou Cozolino and Stan Tatkin.  Dr. Cozolino is a professor at Pepperdine University and the author of numerous books and articles about the overlap of developmental neuroscience and psychotherapy.  Dr. Tatkin is the founder of the PACT Institute and has written extensively about the overlap of developmental neuroscience and couple therapy.  They both had formative experiences at the Bradshaw Center and in Alan Schore's study groups in developmental affective neuroscience, both maintain private practices and both live in Southern California.  They also share in the ability to translate neuroscience in a way that makes sense to the psychotherapist. All of this overlap provides a solid foundation to build a better of understanding of neuroscience, it is also interesting to listen for the ways their paths diverge and how their work with different patient populations impacts  their perspective on psychobiology.  As usual, Stan generously leads us off and helps to get us situated in how the interview with Lou can be understood from the perspective of couples and secure functioning.Time-----00:00:00 - 00:03:10 -Jason Introduction00:02:00-00:41:25 - Jason and Stan Tatkin00:41:25-01:27:44 - Jason and Lou CozolinoResources-----Lou Cozolino’s books on Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/Louis-J.-Cozolino/e/B001H6IW0G%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share Short video of Lou on Inspire Ideas:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYokFn1nw4QInformation about Allan Schore:http://www.allanschore.com/  

In this quarantine bonus episode I check-in with my PACT colleagues a few weeks after we published our article about adapting PACT therapy to telehealth. We discuss the ups and downs of life as a couples therapist behind a digital screen and share our observations about what the couples we work with are facing during the COVID19 pandemic.Here is a link to the article:https://www.thepactinstitute.com/blog/love-in-the-time-of-the-coronavirus-pact-and-telehealthFeatured in this episode:Gabrielle Usatynski, LPCPACT Level 3 Therapist, PACT Ambassadorpowercouplescounseling.com Carolyn Sharp, LICSWPACT Level 3 Therapist, PACT Ambassador  carolynsharp.com Beth O’Brien, Ph.D., Licensed PsychologistPACT Level 3 Therapist, PACT Ambassadorbethobriencounseling.com Jason Brand, LCSWPACT Level 2, PACT Ambassadorjasonbrand.com

I thought it would be helpful to have Rob Fisher's couple meditation as a separate mp3 file.  Enjoy! Resources-----Rob's website: https://robfishermft.com/Rob's book: https://www.amazon.com/Experiential-Psychotherapy-Couples-Creative-Pragmatist-ebook/dp/B014JMZE96/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=rob+fisher+mft&qid=1586648062&sr=8-1Rob helps translate the body language in a television show:https://www.facebook.com/humannurturepodcast/videos/3630503223691208

In this episode, we explore the underlying PACT element of somatic practice with Rob Fisher, MFT. The episode was scheduled for release in June, however, it feels important to make it immediately available as we grapple with with the uncertainty of the COVID-19 outbreak. Talking to Rob would have been helpful at any time but during this unprecedented moment the focus on present time awareness through somatic experience feels both personally and professionally helpful. Personally, the interview provided a great sense of solace and much needed grounding. Professionally, with the shift to telehealth I have been finding myself relying far more on somatic based interventions to amplify feelings and Rob gives clear instruction on how to make this happen.It was important for this episode that the interview fit the topic, and I asked Rob if we could find ways to make our conversation feel more experiential and somatically based. Rob delivered. The interview features an original poem, an example of a guided couple meditation, a translation of body language in a television show and Rob helping me to follow my own somatic experience.It is his generosity and ability to bring somatic practice to the present moment that make this interview feel so alive and immediately applicable. Rob really demonstrates that even from behind a computer screen, while social distancing, we can still find a deep sense of love and connection in our personal and professional lives.The downside to pushing this episode out quickly is that I have not been able talk to Stan Tatkin about his reflections about the conversation with Rob and his thoughts on the importance of somatic practice in PACT. Fear not, Stan will give a listen and in a couple of months I will release that interview as an addendum. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned and stay healthy.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:02:18 -Jason Introduction0:02:19-01:06:44 - Jason and Rob Fisher Resources-----Rob's website: https://robfishermft.com/Rob's book: https://www.amazon.com/Experiential-Psychotherapy-Couples-Creative-Pragmatist-ebook/dp/B014JMZE96/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=rob+fisher+mft&qid=1586648062&sr=8-1Rob helps translate the body language in a television show:https://www.facebook.com/humannurturepodcast/videos/3630503223691208 

"What really grounds PACT is its emphasis on Social Justice theory and the idea that couples must have a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning, a shared vision, a shared mythology for why they are together above and beyond the ephemeral and changeable elements such as new love, romantic love, attractions or common interests."This is Stan Tatkin, the founder of PACT talking about the importance of the foundational element of Social Justice within the PACT approach. In episode #10 (!) we talk to Catherine Ducommun-Nagy, who is an expert in Contexetual Therapy which brought the ideas of fairness, reciprocity and justice into clinical practice and theory. Catherine was married to the founder of Contextual therapy, Ivan Boszormenyi-Nagy who passed away in 2007 and she continues to expand and carry her late husbands work forward.The interview is full of Catherine's frankness, great sense of humor and deep understanding of social justice within the clinical setting and beyond. Here she is in her own words, “The definition of justice is inter-subjective, it comes from the dialogue and the real justice in couples or families would be if you are capable of accepting that the point of view of the other person is no less valid than yours. That becomes reciprocal." We are also joined by the Stan as we discuss the interview with Catherine and he helps us understand the importance of Social Justice Theory within PACT.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:03:19 -Jason Introduction00:02:00-00:24:26 - Jason and Stan Tatkin00:24:26-01:500:35 - Jason and Catherine Ducommun-Nagy 

Over the past couple of weeks, we have all been living through a huge shift in our lives due to the outbreak of the Covid-19 virus.  For PACT therapists, this has meant moving our work as couples therapists from our offices to online.  For many of us, myself included, this has come with quite a bit of worry about the effectiveness of working online, about not being able to properly intervene when couples become dis-regulated and tracking my own self-regulation.  It was heartening to know that I wasn't alone with these worries when similar concerns were expressed on the PACT list serve by other PACT therapists.  A thoughtful and reassuring  response was written by long time PACT therapist, Jeff Pincus (see below) about how he approaches online sessions.  This bonus episode features Jeff and I discussing the shift to working online with our couples.  After the interview, I felt more grounded in my work, used many of the intervention strategies discussed and found myself having an easier time in my online sessions.  This all feels like a day-to-day operation at this point and things seem to go best with a combination of creating structure and taking deep breaths.  It certainly is an extraordinary and scary time and I hope you all are doing okay.   Jeff's website: https://couplestherapyboulder.com/wp/ Here is the original piece that Jeff wrote to the PACT community on the list serve. Hi Everyone, I thought that I would share my thoughts and experience on this topic. I am only addressing my clinical observations and thoughts, not any legal or technological issues associated with video sessions, and I will let others address those questions and concerns. For many years, I avoided doing couples sessions over video as I felt that the medium handicapped me from doing my best work. Video just felt too flat and less dimensional, which of course it is. My experience was that there were fewer data streams available for me to formulate the most effective assessments and interventions, and that my own somato-affective experience was a bit blunted. Over the years, I’ve found myself relying more and more on my counter-transference to formulate hypotheses, craft experiments, and initiate interventions; in a sense, using my whole body to my job.  Another limitation I found was that my ability to regulate partners when appropriate was more challenging. I would have to break my visual data stream of looking at the screen and observing what was going on in the client/couple, and intentionally look at the camera so that the partner experiences me as looking directly in their eyes. In that moment, I’m blind to what is actually happening, and the impact of my intervention. This technology problem is likely to be fixed someday soon, I hear.  I have had a few couples who maintained our working relationship over video more recently, and my observations after many sessions have been positive. I’ve noticed that the limited data streams have amplified my focus on the available streams in a manner that I wouldn’t do with couples in my office. I can stare closely at their faces and body movements in a manner that would be downright creepy in my office, so I’m able to pick up more information.  I’ve also noticed that when the lighting was poor for a moment due to changes in sunlight or the couples’ movement in relation to their lighting source, I would focus strongly on prosody alone, and hear more nuance because it was my only source of information. My thinking is that these data streams (signals) get amplified when there are fewer other streams of information (noise) coming into my processing system (mind/brain). This has to do with focusing on one thing instead of several things.  The other benefit that I saw is that I had to get even craftier in directing interactive regulation since I was out of the scene, and more distanced from the couple in every way. Often, I have them look at each other (as I do in my office) but I’m even more of a narrator and director as I’m a disembodied voice. This has benefits as it’s even more about THEM and less about me. My presence is further diminished and their presence is amplified with each other which can be very beneficial if you know how to direct them.  My final thought has to do with memory. So much of PACT and good experiential psychodynamic therapy and trauma therapy has to do with the re-consolidation of memory. As clinicians, we’re most effective at fostering trait change when we intervene in the problematic states that cause pain, limitation or dysfunction. Our goal is to create a new (state-specific) memory so that our client has the experience of another way, a better move, a more loving response, etc., when they find themselves in the same situation OUTSIDE the office. Working via video allows for place-specific memory. Ideally, the couple is in their home, which is usually the environment where they get in to trouble. Now, not only are we going to work with the problematic state, but we are doing it in the environment that can cue them (via memory and association) to try the new, better, more mature move.  I’m sure you’ve all had clients say how well they do in your office, yet it’s been hard to do it at home. Well, now we are making a virtual house call, and I believe that it will be easier to “do it at home” because they’re practicing at home. Environmental cues are powerful triggers for right brain, subcortical processes. Place does affect state. Personally, I am switching to video sessions for the time being. I believe that social distancing is the most responsible thing that I can do to help flatten the curve of lethality for COVID-19, which is especially important for the most vulnerable members of our society and us all.  I hope this was helpful. I wish you all safety and good health! Jeff

In episode 8 of Human Nurture, we explore PACT's core element of meditation with George Haas the founder of Mettagroup, a meditation center in Los Angeles. We are also joined by Stan Tatkin, the founder of PACT as he reflects on the interview with George and talks about the influence of meditation on PACT theory and practice.George's training and background could not provide a better bridge between PACT and meditation. He teaches Vipassanā (insight meditation) from a foundation of attachment theory and developmental neuroscience. Not only do we have all of this in common with George's teachings, he has also completed PACT level 1 and 2 training. Georges manages to do all of this with a mixture empathy and irreverence which makes for a fun and informative interview.Here is a taste of the way George makes attachment and neuroscience come to life through descriptions of the process of learning to be in the present moment.  "That is why we focus so much on getting people to mentalize their thought processes and understand that if you can be in the present moment and deal with the circumstances of the present moment you don’t need to have all of these afflictive thoughts driving the body into early aging."Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:02:00 -Jason Introduction00:02:00-00:33:43 - Jason and Stan Tatkin00:33:45-01:30:29 - Jason and George HaasResources-----Metta Group (George's podcast can be found here)-  https://www.mettagroup.org/ Great interview on the 10% Happier Podcast with Shinzen Young (Stan and George's meditation teacher)-  https://podcasts.apple.com/ni/podcast/64-shinzen-young-meditation-teacher/id1087147821?i=1000382028850 

Special Bonus Episode- Jeff Zeig joins us again to talk about The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference coming up in Anaheim, December 9-13, 2020.For more info on the conference: https://www.evolutionofpsychotherapy.com/

As PACT therapists we need to quickly organize a great deal of information within a reliable yet flexible structure while still remaining present with the action unfolding between the couple. In order to do this, we rely heavily on the theory and practice developed by family therapists. In this episode of The Human Nurture Podcast, we explore PACT's core element of family therapy in interviews with Sheri Glucoft Wong, LCSW and Stan Tatkin, MFT, PsyD..Sheri describes "being on her spot", which is an attitude and approach she has developed to working with families. Not only is it down to earth, action oriented and inclusive, it also acts as a model for parents. Sheri describes the role this way, "that combination of being clear in your message but also flexible and responsive to people is the key to having the most positive parenting relationship you can have. So we in the field have to model the same thing we are asking parents [to do] in their lives."Stan describes the formative experiences of his family therapy training and the ways PACT can be used with families. Stan and I discuss the interview with Sheri as a way to explore PACT concepts like; regulating the regulator, building a therapeutic alliance, differentiation, being in role and many more.On a personal note, this is a special episode because it features two of my mentors and it was quite a thrill to find so much overlap in their thinking and approach. As always, thank you for listening and I hope you enjoy the family therapy episode.Follow along of Facebook @humannurturepodcastTime-----00:00:00 - 00:06:15 -Jason Introduction0:06:15-01:04:45 - Jason and Sheri Glucoft Wong01:04:46-01:31:10 - Jason and Stan Tatkin Resources-----Great Virginia Satir Video- https://youtu.be/XZTgp4WzvzIGreat Carl Carl Whittaker Video- https://youtu.be/9LF5y6nfypgA blog post I wrote for PACT about working with parents to help kids--Joysticks and Controllers: Using PACT With Kids Who Use Video Games Obsessivelyhttps://stantatkinblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/joysticks-and-controllers-using-pact-with-kids-who-use-video-games-obsessively/Working with Families PACT Style- Blog post by Stan Tatkin - https://stantatkinblog.wordpress.com/2019/07/17/working-with-families-pact-style/  

The difficulty of learning object relations theory, frustrates you and makes you feel like a bad therapist, however, if you listen to this episode it is an opportunity to get more comfortable with the theory and it’s clinical applications.You see what I did there? I used James Masterson’s intervention strategy (pain, self, defense) to encourage self activation.That’s right, it’s time for the core element of psychoanalytic theory from an American object relations perspective with a focus on James Masterson and disorders of the self. If that sounds like a mouthful, then you are in the right place because this 5th episode of the Human Nurture Podcast, Season 1- PACT in Theory, features lots of questions and knowledgeable guestsWe are joined by Loray Daws, PhD., who does a great job of making this challenging material relatable and accessible. Loray achieves this by striking a balance between theoretical descriptions and providing clinical and developmental examples. The episode starts off with an interview Stan Tatkin (the founder of PACT) who walks us through how object relations theory fits into PACT, his own experience learning and practicing the theory and he helps me get clear on the similarities and differences between object relations and attachment theories.What attracts so many of us to PACT is that it provides us with the skills and the conceptual understanding necessary to work with the most challenging of couples and in this episode, Loray and Stan describe a way of thinking and working that allows for the safety and containment necessary for this to take place.Time-----00:00:00 - 00:02:38 -Jason Introduction0:02:38-0:42:14 - Jason and Stan0:42:14-2:17:59 - Jason and Loray Daws Resources----Contemporary Psychotherapy-- Grandiosity and Perfection-- The Masterson Approach to Narcissistic Disorders of the Self--  Loray Dawshttp://www.contemporarypsychotherapy.org/volume-3-no-2-winter-2011/grandiosity-and-perfection/Contemporary Psychotherapy--Living between rewarding and withdrawing paradigms of experience -- The Mastersonian approach to the Borderline disorder of self -- Loray Dawshttp://www.contemporarypsychotherapy.org/volume-4-no-2-winter-2012/living-between-rewarding-and-withdrawing-paradigms-of-experience/?fbclid=IwAR1J3QbYSGIdA9dhzMMUgn4q4FzIlxDPh8otS3Nb0KsY6ualviodxhfOfBoContemporary Psychotherapy-- Is there anybody out there? -- The Mastersonian Approach to the Schizoid Dilemma--  Loray Dawshttp://www.contemporarypsychotherapy.org/volume-5-no-1-spring-2013/is-there-anybody-out-there/?fbclid=IwAR3Gt5BvX64X_6tCLyNgyKoECWtvxXQdyFgF9DGNM88d-iPAjgrZJljP40wTherapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders - Zeig Tucker- https://www.zeigtucker.com/product/therapists-guide-to-the-personality-disorders/ 

In this 4th episode of the Human Nurture Podcast - Season 1 - PACT in Theory, we take a look into the core element of Gestalt Therapy. In the intro interview, Stan explains Gestalt's influence on PACT as, "the importance of discovery," "being in the present moment," and "staying within the intersubjective field." Our guest, Robert W. Resnick, PhD has a great to deal to say about the techniques and methodology of, "finding the freshest fish." Robert practiced with Fritz Perls (the founder of Gestalt Therapy) and was selected by Perlz to introduce Gestalt Therapy to Europe. For the past 40 years, Robert and his wife Rita Resnick, PhD., have been splitting their time between private practice and teaching in Santa Monica and leading Gestalt Therapy trainings in Europe. Robert does a wonderful job of explaining the theory behind Gestalt and provides practical insight into how to encourage and support a dialogue of discovery with our couples. Or as Robert puts it, "We are not trying to change to people, we are trying to support them in using who they are at the moment." Time-----0:00-0:01:30 - Jason Intro0:01:30-0:27:40 - Jason and Stan0:27:40-1:35:37 - Jason and Robert ResnickResources----Gestalt Association of Los Angeles:  www.Gatla.orgRobert Resnick's videos that are referenced in the episode: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/gestaltfilms

Episode 3 of the The Human Nature Podcast covers the core element of trance. It features Jeffrey Zeig, PhD and an introductory conversation about trance and PACT with Stan Tatkin. Jeff has an encyclopedic knowledge of not only hypnosis/trance but also the history and people that have created psychotherapy as we know it today. He is the perfect guide into the world of hypnosis which he describes as, "the mother of experiential approaches to psychotherapy."To borrow one of Jeff's words, this episode is "dense." Jeff references the mechanics of art, science, sports and the card game bridge to describe the underpinnings of trance states. With his help, we turn our attention to the ways PACT "promote[s] relational states" to evoke in couples the feelings and experiences of secure functioning.Time:Jason Into: 0:00-00:01:45Stan Interview: 00:01:50-00:36:30Jeffrey Zeig Interview: 00:36:36-0:1:37:08 Links:Erickson Foundation:  https://www.erickson-foundation.org/Jeffrey Zeig's website: http://jeffreyzeig.com/    

The second episode is an interview with David K. Reynolds.  David, is the creator of Constructive Living.  Constructive Living is based on Morita Therapy and the Naikan mindfulness practice both of which originated in Japan.  PACT's emphasis on "outside focused attention" and doing what needs to be done to promote secure functioning come from Constructive Living.  In the expert interview, David explains Constructive Living and how he has dedicated his adult life to translating Naikan and Morita for a western audience.  He is an amazing example of someone who embodies their practice and was the perfect person to talk to for the first podcast interview.  0:00-28:45- Interview with Stan Tatkin about Constructive Living28:45-1:20:45- Interview with David K. Reynolds about Constructive LivingHere are some of the links mentioned in the episode:Constructive Living Website:https://constructiveliving2.weebly.com/Playing Ball on Running Water:https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Ball-Running-Water-Japanese/dp/0688039138David's Audio Book:https://www.audible.com/pd/Constructive-Living-Audiobook/B017HQBNMS