A podcast for people who like the unexpected. Join the surgeon and academic Professor Roger Kneebone in conversation with unorthodox people whose careers defy traditional boundaries and who swim against the tide.
The portrait artist Adele Wagstaff trained at Newcastle University and the Slade School of Fine Art. She has been shortlisted for the Jerwood Drawing Prize and the BP Portrait Award and her work has been exhibited in the National Portrait Gallery. Alongside her work in the UK she spends time in Egypt, working on portraits of people along the Nile. Adele teaches a wide range of students, including life classes at the Royal Academy of Arts, which is where we first met. In this conversation we explore similarities and differences between our areas of work. https://www.adelewagstaff.co.uk
Helen Leek is a pianist who has won many prizes, including the International Young Concert Artists Competition and the Brant International Piano Competition. She performs as a soloist and chamber musician and teaches piano at Royal Holloway, University of London. She also gives masterclasses and adjudicates at competitions within the Royal College of Music. In this conversation explore her approach to music and discuss parallels between our professional worlds. Helen dedicates this podcast to the memory of psychotherapist Bill Hendry, who died suddenly in March 2025.
Dame Eleanor Sharpston KC served as an Advocate General at the Court of Justice of the European Union from 2006 to 2020, before being removed following Brexit. Eleanor has held academic roles at the University of Cambridge, has numerous honorary doctorates and is a Bencher at the Middle Temple. In this conversation we discuss her remarkable career and explore parallels between our different paths.
Steven Appleby is an artist, illustrator and cartoonist who has created cartoon strips for The Guardian, The New Musical Express and many other publications. She has written and drawn many books (including the graphic novel Dragman), designed record covers, and has collaborated on a wide range of projects. She's a transgender person who describes herself as being relaxed about pronouns. We recorded this podcast at Steven's exhibition Nothing is Real in London. https://www.stevenappleby.com
Graham Scott is one of only twenty Premier League football referees. In this podcast we explore the challenges, pressures and satisfactions of being a top level referee and discuss the nature of the role. We also explore Graham's parallel career in journalism, from being a report to becoming Editor of the Nursing Standard.
Stephen Akinsanya is a barrister who focuses on defence work in many areas of criminal law. He has a particular interest in defending young people accused of involvement in knife-related crime. He is also committed to advocacy training and to supporting less experienced colleagues in his profession as they develop their careers. In this conversation we discuss our experiences in very different areas of professional practice. https://15nbs.com/portfolio/stephen-akinsanya/
Professor Allan Hamilton is a neurosurgeon, radiation oncologist, author, academic, horse whisperer, television scriptwriter and pioneer in artificial intelligence (AI). He holds four professorships at the University of Arizona College of Medicine. In this Countercurrent Revisited conversation we explore the excitements and dangers of AI in the clinical world and beyond. https://neurosurgery.arizona.edu/profile/allan-j-hamilton-md-facs
Sharon Weldon is Professor of Healthcare Simulation and Workforce Development at the University of Greenwich. After overcoming serious illness as a teenager and travelling all over the world, Sharon trained as a nurse. After completing a Masters at the London School of Hygiene and Tropic Health she joined Imperial College London. Her pioneering work as a doctoral student in my own research group included developing the concept of Sequential Simulation. Since leaving Imperial to join the University of Greenwich she has established her reputation as a leading thinker in her field and is the President Elect of the Association for Simulated Practice in Healthcare (ASPiH). https://www.gre.ac.uk/people/rep/faculty-of-education-and-health/dr-sharon-weldon
Paul Jakeman is a sculptor and stone carver, whose work ranges from creating new designs to restoring historic statues. He is also Stone Carving Tutor at the City & Guilds of London Art School. Paul's large scale work includes the Atlas Fountain at Kenilworth Castle and carving - and installing - the massive unicorn on the steeple of St George's Bloomsbury, one of London's iconic Hawksmoor churches. In this conversation Paul describes the processes of stone carving and how he brings together ancient and modern influences in his work.
Thomas Schlich is the James McGill Professor in the History of Medicine and Charie of the Department of Social Studies of Medicine at McGill University in Montreal. This Countercurrent Revisited conversation picks up the story six years after our first podcast. We discuss Thomas's longstanding fascination with surgery in the long nineteenth century and his book exploring these ideas. We also discuss his work on the history of masks, prompted by the Covid-19 pandemic. https://www.mcgill.ca/ssom/staff/schlich
Annmarie Adams is Stevenson Professor in the History and Philosophy of Science, including Medicine, at McGill University in Montreal. An architect and architectural historian by background, Annmarie is jointly appointed in her university's School of Architecture and Department of Social Studies of Medicine. We explore how these perspectives intersect and share our experiences of hospital buildings and other sites of care, drawing on Annmarie's ability to analyse and map the skeletal structure of buildings in a way that resonates with studying human anatomy. https://www.mcgill.ca/ssom/staff/annmarie-adams
Nina Baker was one of my first Countercurrent guests. In 2014 she described her varied career, from being the first female deck officer in the British Merchant Navy to her PhD in concrete science and her work in university administration. In this Countercurrent Revisited podcast we explore her longstanding fascination with the history of women in engineering.
After a five year apprenticeship as a wood and stone carver Bradford's (a leading London workshop) in the 1950s, Tony worked at the firm for fifteen years as a journeyman. He then moved to St Paul's Cathedral as Master Carver. There he was responsible for the cathedral's extensive conversation and restoration programme and also created new work. In this conversation we explore Tony's lifelong fascination with the art and craft of carving, inspired by forms in the natural world.
Professor Misha Perouansky is a consultant anaesthetist and experimental neuroscientist in Madison WI, USA. He first took part in Countercurrent 2017. In 2023 he suffered a catastrophic water-skiing accident, leading to a high above-knee amputation of one lower limb and a number of other injuries. In this Countercurrent Revisited conversation we explore Misha's experience of serious trauma and its impact on his life and career.
Dr Emma Barker is an art historian and academic who teaches and researches at the Open University. She specialises in eighteenth-century French art and she is currently exploring ideas around art and blindness. https://www.open.ac.uk/people/eb38
Anne Desmet RA is a distinguished wood engraver, print maker and Royal Academician. Fascinated by the idea of metamorphosis, her imaginative works often draw on architectural themes. We discuss how her work has evolved over several decades, and how she brings together a wide range of styles and techniques. https://annedesmet.com
The immunologist Andrew George is Professor Emeritus at Imperial College London. In addition to his immunological research, Andrew plays a leading role in developing policy around ethical conduct and regulation of research. He has held many senior positions in universities and the health service and is also a career coach. https://profiles.imperial.ac.uk/a.george
Sir Christopher Le Brun PPRA is widely known as a painter, though he also works in other media. From 2011 until 2019 he was President of the Royal Academy of Arts (RA). We discuss his approach to art and the challenges of leading the RA during a time of challenge and redevelopment. https://www.christopherlebrun.co.uk
Quassim Cassam is professor of philosophy at the University of Warwick. He is well known for his work examining terrorism, political extremism, the professional values of general medical practice and the idea of epistemic vice. In this conversation we explore how these strands are interwoven within his career. https://www.quassimcassam.com
Peter Openshaw CBE is a respiratory physician and mucosal immunologist at Imperial College London, where he is Professor of Experimental Medicine at the National Heart and Lung Institute. His because a familiar voice in the media during the Covid-19 pandemic. We discuss how his clinical and research interests intertwine, and how his Quaker principles underpin his approach to clinical practice and experimental work. https://profiles.imperial.ac.uk/p.openshaw
Dr Dan Dworkis is a board-certified emergency physician and Adjunct Professor at the Keck School of Medicine at the University of Southern California. He is Chief Medical Officer at the Mission Critical Team Institute. His book The Emergency Mind: Wiring Your Brain for Performance Under Pressure was published in 2021. In this conversation we explore what it means to deal with uncertainty in situations of crisis. https://keck.usc.edu/faculty-search/daniel-dworkis/
Matt Bishop is a writer, journalist, novelist and communications expert with a lifelong passion for motor sport. In this podcast we explore his insights into the worlds of Formula One racing and journalism. https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/author/mattbishop/
Dr Stephen Webster is a philosopher of science and developed the internationally renowned Masters in Science Communication at Imperial College London. He stepped down from directing the Science Communication Unit in 2023 and now leads the Good Science Project at Imperial. We discuss what ‘good science' means and explore how sitting and thinking can be as important as laboratory benchwork. https://profiles.imperial.ac.uk/stephen.webster
Geoff Grandfield is well known for his iconic book covers and illustrations, strongly influenced by film noir. His images, with their unconventional viewpoints and perspectives, convey a powerful sense of isolation, unease and disquiet. In addition to his work and his teaching, Geoff is exploring the legacies of primal separation in his doctoral studies. https://geoffgrandfield.co.uk
Sheila Hayman is a documentary film maker who has been exploring the relationship between people and technology for over forty years. In this conversation we explore issues around sustainability, artificial intelligence and what it means to be human. https://www.sheilahayman.com
Simon Clarke is a consultant paediatric and neonatal surgeon and a professional actor. In this conversation we explore the similarities and differences between these apparently unrelated areas of expert practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6JYOL-VAzo
John McMunn fell in love with opera and performing at the age of ten. He studied at Harvard University before moving to England to become a Choral Scholar at King's College Cambridge, then studied at the Royal College of Music Opera School. Ill health forced him to change his career direction. Now he is Chief Executive of the Academy of Ancient Music. We discuss our experiences of how serious illness has reshaped our careers.
Rob Sansom is an actor, Simulated Patient, house decorator and builder. In this conversation we explore how his work in these apparently unrelated worlds connects in unexpected ways.
Dame Sue Davies has had a long career in contemporary dance. Initially at the London Contemporary Dance Theatre, Sue established Siobhan Davies Dance Company in 1988. Her studio - Siobhan Davies Studios - was designed by Sarah Wigglesworth within the shell of a Victorian school building in Southwark. Now Sue makes films, including ‘All This Can Happen' (2012).
Professor Sir David Spiegelhalter was Winton Professor of the Public Understanding of Risk at the University of Cambridge until his recent retirement. A gifted broadcaster and communicator, David became familiar to many through his media discussions around statistics and risk during the Covid-19 pandemic. https://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~david/
After completing her training in plastic surgery and as a professional coach, Lilli Cooper has expanded her interests to address issues around performance, anxiety and wellness through coaching and specialised support. In this conversation we explore how she focuses on helping surgeons optimise their performance. www.lillicooper.co.uk
Dr Richard Horton is the Editor-in-Chief of The Lancet. In this conversation he describes the challenges and excitement of being at the helm of one of the world's leading medical journals and his approach to controversy and political involvement. We also discuss his personal experience of advanced cancer and its impact on his thinking and approach.
Aris has been fascinated by the human body for as long as he can remember. Early on he discovered a special aptitude for treating ill and injured people through touch, broadening his skills during his degree studies as a sports therapist. In this conversation we discuss our different experiences of gaining and applying anatomical knowledge, and our approaches to working with patients and clients. https://www.aristherapy.co.uk/
Helen Anahita Wilson trained as a pianist and spent years performing contemporary compositions in the UK. She then became immersed in the complex rhythmical structures of Indian music. In 2019 she was about to travel to India at the start of her PhD when she was diagnosed with aggressive breast cancer. She underwent surgery, chemotherapy, radiotherapy and immunotherapy during the Covid pandemic. She used these experiences to develop new musical forms, drawing on sonic expressions of biological processes in humans and plants. Her latest work linea naturalis is based on plants in the Chelsea Physic Garden. https://www.helenanahitawilson.com
Robert Lindsey studied English Literature at Oxford University, where he completed PhD in Shakespeare studies and co-edited the Penguin edition of Christopher Marlowe's plays. He then changed direction and trained as a barrister. Since then he has practised in the criminal courts. In this conversation we discuss Bob's unconventional career path and explore some of the pressures facing the UK legal system.
Gareth Mitchell lectures in science communication at Imperial College London. For many years he presented the weekly technology programme Digital Planet on the BBC World Service. He also presents occasionally on BBC Radio 4's Inside Science. We explore parallels between Gareth's work as a presenter and podcaster and my own experience as a clinician.
Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 7th Marquess of Salisbury, has had a long career as a Conservative politician. He represented South Dorset in the House of Commons from 1979-1987. He was a junior defence minister for two years before being appointed to the House of Lords as Lord Cranborne after the 1992 general election. In the 1990s he was Leader of the House of Lords, from which he retired in 2017. His home is Hatfield House in Hertfordshire. This conversation was recorded in early November 2023, before David Cameron was appointed Foreign Secretary by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak.
Andrew Grundon is an artist who draws, paints and sculpts. He designs and paints traditional pub signs, makes marionettes and is writing and illustrating a novel. In this podcast we discuss the remarkable range of skills which he has gained over many decades and explore how he continues to defy conventional categories and push the boundaries of his work. In November 2023 Andrew became Maker of the Year in the 2023 Heritage Crafts Awards. https://signaturesignsuk.com
Dr Jonathon Tomlinson has been a full-time GP in East London since 2001. He is fascinated by the challenges subtleties of the clinical consultation. He writes about patient clinical advocacy and the social determinants of health and has an MA in Human Values and Contemporary Global Ethics. In this conversation we discuss the nature of general practice, including ideas around kindness and shame.
Abigail Bainbridge is a book conservator and Director of Bainbridge Conservation. She teaches on many degree programmes, including at West Dean College, Camberwell College of Art and City & Guilds of London Art School. She sits on the Royal Society of Chemistry's Heritage Science Expert Working Group and is the editor of Conservation of Books, which was published in 2023. https://www.bainbridgeconservation.com/aboutus
Allan Hamilton holds four professorships at the University of Arizona College of Medicine - in neurosurgery, radiation oncology, psychology and electrical engineering & computing. His book The Scalpel and the Soul, based on over two decades as a neurosurgeon, explores clinical practice from unconventional perspectives. He is an expert horse whisperer and senior medical consultant on the television show Grey's Anatomy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Hamilton
Dr Ishminder Mangat is a junior doctor based in Bristol. She is fascinated by exploring how clinical medicine and the arts can enrich and enlighten one another. Her own podcasts explore a range of topics, including the power of narrative in breast cancer, death and dying, and motherhood anxiety. Ishminder is the lead organiser and creator of Bodies, medical humanities which was launched in Bristol in June 2023
Desiree Botana Machado is a skilled prosector, preparing dissections of human cadavers for teaching medical students and surgeons. We discuss how her work combines extraordinary levels of craftsmanship and skill with deep anatomical knowledge and the ability to engage with learners across a wide range of knowledge and experience.
Dr James Eastaway trained as a doctor while developing his career as a leading Baroque oboeist and working in experimental theatre. As a musician he plays in some of the UK and Europe's leading ensembles, while as a doctor he is a GP in a South London training practice. We discuss the excitements and challenges of keeping these multiple strands in play at the same time.
Joz Norris is an award-winning writer, actor and comedian. We explore Joz's approach to his work in the world of comedy, and discuss how his absurdist approach has opened new directions. We examine parallels between our professional lives and discuss the transitions we have both experienced in our careers. https://www.joznorris.co.uk
The Hungarian musician Anna Detari studied the flute at the Liszt Institute in Budapest and developed a passion for performing contemporary compositions before her career was disrupted by Musician's Focal Dystonia - a mysterious condition which she went on to research and which formed the basis of her doctorate. Although Anna has recovered her ability to perform, her interests in musicians' wellbeing and the impact of neurodiversity on professional careers form the basis of her current work at the Royal College of Music https://www.rcm.ac.uk/research/people/details/?id=96061
Miss Angeliki McAllister trained as a breast surgeon, initially focusing on procedures to remove cancers and refashion patients' breasts. Now she is developing a non-operative clinical role, bringing together the many kinds of expertise which women experiencing breast cancer need. We discuss her ideas around widening her professional focus, comparing her career path with my own experience in surgery, general practice and academia.
Simon Friend retired from PwC in 2017 after 35 years with the company. His background in accountancy, auditing and business leadership has led to a range of other roles, including being Non-Executive Director at the Royal Academy of Arts. We discuss Simon's role as critical friend and explore how his experience in thinking about risk can inform an organisation's decision-making.
Maiko Tsutsumi studied furniture making and Japanese lacquer work as an apprentice in her native Japan in the 1990s. After moving to London and studying furniture design at the Royal College Art, she worked for a design studio in London. Having completed a PhD (entitled The Poetics of Everyday Objects) she took up a teaching role at Camberwell College of Arts. Now working independently, Maiko's interests cross many boundaries. https://www.maikotsutsumi.com
Tim Boon is a historian of the public culture of science. In his long career at the Science Museum he has explored many aspects of public history relating to health. In this conversation he traces his career's evolution and we discuss his current large-scale project The Congruence Engine, funded by the Arts & Humanities Research Council.
Callum Thorpe initially trained as a scientist, gaining a PhD in immunology from Imperial College London. He then trained as an opera singer and is now an internationally renowned soloist. In this conversation we explore the nature of performance in science and the performing arts. https://www.callumthorpe.com
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