The Roys Report

Relationship coach and counselor Leslie Vernick explains how to identify emotionally destructive churches and how to escape them.

What did pastors Jimmy Evans and Brady Boyd know about their friend Robert Morris's abuse of a 12-year-old and when? We examine the evidence.

Relationship coach Leslie Vernick provides hope and specific steps for moving beyond a traumatic event to take agency for what comes next.

A former student and soccer coach at Truett McConnell U (TMU) claims a TMU VP sexually abused her and President Emir Caner protected him.

Attorney Melissa Hogan shares her journey of being betrayed by her husband, seeking a place of safety and finding it in abuse survivor community.

Guest Bios Show Transcript What happens when people start questioning what they were taught about Jesus—and discover the church might be the problem, not their faith? In his talk from the Restore Conference, author and New Testament scholar Scot McKnight reframes the controversial topic of “deconstruction” as a faithful pursuit of Christ rather than a departure from belief. McKnight challenges common misconceptions about deconstruction, often mislabeled as rebellion or “exvangelical angst.” Drawing on his recent book Invisible Jesus, co-authored with musician and pastor Tommy Preson Phillips, McKnight shares insights from those rethinking their faith—not to abandon Jesus, but to more firmly grasp authentic faith in Him.

Guest Bios Show Transcript Despite an investigation finding that Michael Brown engaged in clergy sexual abuse, an Elder Accountability Team cleared him for ministry. And now, Brown has published a video, announcing his return. What should we make of the allegations against Brown? And is his video truth—or an attempt at image repair and lies? On this podcast, host Julie Roys welcomes Ron Cantor, a former close friend of Brown’s, to examine the video and the known facts.

In a “fauxpology,” Pastor Jimmy Evans doubled down on his past errant sermon saying Jesus lacked understanding and needed to submit to authority figures

Guest Bios Show Transcript In a sermon last Sunday, popular Bible teacher Jimmy Evans claimed Jesus, the Son of God, was “wrong.” The outlandish claim was part of a larger argument Evans was making that those in authority know best, so we should submit to them. Evans, who infamously told former Daystar TV executive Jonathan Lamb that his mother Joni Lamb was “the voice of God” to him, now argues that Jesus’ mother was essentially the voice of God to Jesus.

Looking beyond brands and buildings, microchurch pioneer Brian Sanders says churches can make eternal, mega impact as faithful communities that spark local change.

In this second part of a two-part podcast, a Tyler Deaton cult survivor describes the exorcism she experienced at the International House of Prayer-Kansas City (IHOPKC), Micah Moore's murder confession, and her journey to healing.

Exclusive interview: a member of Tyler Deaton's cult tells her story, including the cult's connections to the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (IHOPKC) and Bethany Deaton's mysterious death.

Rob Wegner shares his journey of spiritual renewal, which took him from megachurch leader to microchurch pioneer.

Baylor professor and researcher Dr. David Pooler dismantles the myth that adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA) is an “affair.”

Mary DeMuth shares her journey of experiencing harm in a Dallas megachurch, but finding Jesus and healing in the wreckage.

Speaking from decades of experience counseling trauma survivors, Dr. Diane Langberg challenges the church to confront hidden abuses within its own walls.

Mike Bickle's grooming defined the culture of IHOPKC and resulted in widespread abuse, says longtime IHOPKC staff leader Shelley Hundley in this podcast.

Daystar TV insider Melanie Contreras tells of nightmare “counseling” from Fred and Anna Kendall and their collusion with Daystar President Joni Lamb.

Longtime Daystar insider Melanie Contreras uncovered details of Marcus Lamb's affair, shedding light on the culture and practices at Daystar TV.

Fueled by the “leadership movement,” domineering pastors have left a trail of victims—but JR Woodward says there's a better way.

The woman who exposed Marcus Lamb's extramarital affair breaks her silence, with new insights into Daystar TV's culture of control and cover-up.

Author Lance Ford exposes how churches use faulty teachings to bind and silence Jesus followers, and envisions how truth and reforms can bring freedom.

Daystar TV President Joni Lamb recently prayed curses on-air—is that normal for Christians? Bible teacher Lance Ford parses what the Bible says on this practice.

After being kicked out of the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, two podcasters who've reported on the Daystar TV scandal speak out.

Investigative journalist Julie Roys unpacks why her work exposes evil deeds of church leaders—and why truth matters in an era of compromise.

Two survivors of IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle's abuse share how he groomed and betrayed them, and a survivor advocate shares how they exposed the wolf.

Deborah Perkins, the first victim of Mike Bickle's who went public, shares of how friends “went to war” with her, to expose an evil system of abuse.

Her story of alleged sexual abuse by Mike Bickle caused the prayer ministry he founded to separate from him. Now she reveals her identity for the first time.

Image repair analyst, Dr. Julia Dahl, says a 10-minute video posted by Mercy Culture Pastor Landon Schott in response to an article is rife with image repair tactics.

Former assistant to Daystar TV founders Marcus and Joni Lamb gives a revealing account of the prominent Christian network.

Jamin Coller, author of Dear Evangelicals, says people are exiting the church because they have questions no one in church wants to hear, let alone answer.

Bible teacher Lance Ford shares that what's advocated as spiritual leadership and submission in evangelical circles is often really spiritual abuse. 

Are allegations by Jonathan and Suzy Lamb about Joni Lamb's alleged cover-up of sex abuse and “unbiblical” marriage to Doug Weiss part of a “power grab.” The couple respond.

Daystar TV President Joni Lamb claims the allegations against her are lies. On this podcast, Jonathan and Suzy Lamb aim to set the record straight.

Sign an NDA or you're fired. That's the message the board of Daystar TV and its lawyer sent Jonathan Lamb in a board meeting last November.

Show Transcript Why was Jonathan Lamb fired from Daystar? According to Daystar, it was due to performance issues and refusing to participate in third-party mediation to resolve grievances in a biblical manner. But according to Jonathan, it's because he refused to sign an NDA. Now, The Roys Report is releasing full audio of a Daystar Board meeting on November 16, 2023, so you can judge for yourselves. 

After Joni Lamb demanded her son, a former Daystar executive, submit to her authority, a veteran church planter considers if that's biblical.

NT scholar Scot McKnight contends the deconstruction movement isn't a problem; it's a prophetic voice resisting a distorted gospel.

Show Transcript https://youtu.be/H4a23HS7qu0During their time at Daystar TV Network, former Vice President Jonathan Lamb and his wife, Suzy Lamb, say they were spiritually abused by Jonathan's mother, Daystar President Joni Lamb, and her close ally, Jimmy Evans. In this special edition of The Roys Report, we're releasing full audio of Joni and Jimmy Evans' meeting with Jonathan and Suzy Lamb in which Evans claims Joni is “the voice of God” to Jonathan and Suzy. Joni is the co-founder, with her late husband, Marcus, of Daystar TV—which has become consumed in a scandal involving the alleged cover-up the sexual abuse of Jonathan and Suzy's daughter. But Jonathan and Suzy also objected to Joni's marriage to sex therapist Doug Weiss. And when the couple refused to read a viewer comment on-air, praising Joni's marriage, Joni called them into a meeting. And to reinforce her authority over her son and employee, Joni brought in Jimmy Evans, the founder of XO Marriage and Turning Point Ministries. During this meeting, recently reported on by The Roys Report, the two well-known Christian personalities provide blatant examples of spiritual abuse. According to author Remy Diederich: “Spiritual abuse happens when people use God, or their supposed relationship with God, to control behavior for their benefit.” For nearly 90 minutes, Joni and Evans claim the mantle of “representatives of God.” And when Jonathan and Suzy resist, Joni says they're living in rebellion, and they'll bring a curse on themselves and their kids. In the interest of transparency, we're releasing the full audio, which was recorded on July 11, 2023. It has been only lightly edited, to remove the name of a person who has been accused of child sex abuse but not formally charged with any crime. SUPPORT OUR WORKVisit our Donate page to see our latest year-end financial statement and give to the cause of nonprofit journalism. Show Transcript Transcript for this edition available on YouTube. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/T6tDPn5nQ7kThe Church is supposed to be the Bride of Christ and the hope for mankind. But has the church in America become nothing more than a business? On this edition of The Roys Report, Julie speaks with Nathan Apffel, a filmmaker who's working on a docuseries, called The Religion Business. Nathan, who has more than 15 years of experience in TV and film production, is confronting megachurches and their pastors with their lack of financial accountability. He's demanding to know their salaries and housing allowances—and he's not taking no for an answer. Last month, he got arrested when he showed up at Ed Young's megachurch in Grapevine, Texas, carrying signs asking what Ed's salary and housing allowance is. Prior to that, Nathan had a run-in with the security team of televangelist Kenneth Copeland on Copeland's expansive ministry complex, including a mansion and jet runway. Why do megachurches have security teams that protect them from honest questions? Why do so few congregations know what their pastors make? And why do filmmakers get arrested when they demand transparency? Buckle up, because this is a wild interview with someone who's a bit of a cowboy when it comes to his tactics. But his exposés reveal some alarming practices within the church—and he says he's on a mission to change them. SUPPORT OUR WORKVisit our Donate page to see our latest year-end financial statement and give to the cause of nonprofit journalism. Guests Nathan Apffel Nathan Apffel, an Emmy-winning filmmaker based in Park City, Utah, aims to spur constructive conversations and action through his films and TV series. As a director and producer, his work has won recognition at numerous film festivals and two Emmy Awards. His upcoming seven-part docuseries, The Religion Business. sheds light on the business of Western Religion, and in particular, Christianity. Learn more about The Religion Business, set to release next year, at the official website.  Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What's worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up. But there is a better way. On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God's People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem. Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil. In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she's learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people? She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others. This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we'll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share. Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God's narrow path for many decades. Guests Dr. Diane Langberg Dr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG   JULIE ROYS  00:04 Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way.   JULIE ROYS  00:21 Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me.   DIANE LANGBERG 02:58 Thank you. It’s an honor to be here.   JULIE ROYS  03:00 I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix.   DIANE LANGBERG 03:39 I’m thrilled to be done too.   JULIE ROYS  03:43 I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is?   DIANE LANGBERG 04:15 So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems,   JULIE ROYS  04:34 So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and  say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:25 Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed.   JULIE ROYS  05:45 So what would you say fruit is?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:47 It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd.   JULIE ROYS  06:10 And yet, so often it is true  when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right?   DIANE LANGBERG 06:29 Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ.   JULIE ROYS  06:35 One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question?   DIANE LANGBERG 07:14 Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue.   JULIE ROYS  08:28 Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there are some mega churches that do-good work, and there’s people who have been saved through these mega churches, who have been discipled through them. But I think for the pastor, I have seen that it seems like all the pressures in a mega church are in the wrong direction. I’m curious what you would say that you’ve seen with our churches today, and whether they help spiritual formation for these leaders, or whether they seem to work in the opposite direction.   DIANE LANGBERG 09:09 The pressure is terrible, the expectations are extravagant, and everything has God’s name on it. So if you aren’t meeting the pressure, and you aren’t bringing in lots of people, and people aren’t talking about how wonderful you are, you’re not doing a good job. If those are the criteria, then Jesus didn’t do a good job. And so the care of the shepherd,  the personality of the shepherd, the heart that not is just given in words, but indeed. All of those things show us who a shepherd is, and we are measuring by outcome. I mean again, you go back to the cross or to the resurrection, there were not very many people about looking for him. I think that we love the institution, and it  feels safe to us, and it feels like God must be on our side, because we have 3000 members or whatever, when, in fact, he’s called us to love and to patience and to self-control and things like that. That’s how we look like him, how we serve him, and how we woo others to him.   JULIE ROYS  10:38 Well it is centered around a celebrity so often. And this can happen in large churches, mega churches. This can happen in small churches, where the pastor can be the big fish in the small pond, just as much as you know that the celebrity pastor in this this big institution. And I think when we complain  about the pastor or about the institution, we also have to look at ourselves, don’t we? because we’re the consumers of these type of churches. We are the ones that give money to these churches. What  responsibility do we have as lay people to ensure that our churches are better?   DIANE LANGBERG 11:19 I’m not even sure that I would start thinking about it that way, because to ensure our churches are better means to ensure a system is good, and Jesus didn’t die for systems. So the question is number one for me, on my face, asking him where I am not like him to teach me that and to teach me how to become more like Him in those ways. Part of what doing that and living there, not just doing it once or something, but living in that space with God also sharpens our eyes and our ears, and we begin to recognize things that may be painted beautifully but look nothing like Christ. I think, until that happens, the system is evidence of God, which is not whether it’s a church or a political one, or whatever it is, none of that is his fruit. It’s who we are in the places that we live that is to be his fruit.   JULIE ROYS  12:31 Something I’ve really appreciated about you, and I’m hearing it in this interview, but it’s also in your writings. One of my favorite book actually, of yours is that little. It’s just a tiny paperback book on meditations for counselors. And I have found that it’s not just meditations for counselors, it’s meditations really for anybody who’s in work that does take them through some of the grossest evil that’s out there, and how to protect your soul. And I so appreciate that. I know I read it. I said this at the last RESTORE,, because I went through a very difficult time prior to it, and I read  those meditations, I went through that book twice, just because I found that I needed to protect my soul, so carefully, because, again, the pressures are just not in the right direction. And I know my own flesh  when I encounter these systems, makes me so angry, and you can’t, not when you, when you hear the way that people have abused.   DIANE LANGBERG 13:40 Jesus cracked whips and turns tables over. So I don’t think he likes it much either.   JULIE ROYS  13:46 And that’s something that I say regularly, and people are like, You sound angry, and I’ll be like, Why aren’t you angry? Like this should make us angry genuinely. Yet at the same time, Satan will use that as an opportunity in our own hearts. And you talk about in your book about the role that deception plays. This was so good, and let’s start with the predator himself. Right? How deception works with someone who is again preying on the sheep rather than protecting the sheep. Often, I wonder if they even admit to themselves what they’re doing.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:29 Often not. I think that, I mean, obviously we are deceptive creatures. There’s no exceptions. The only exception was Christ, and so we carry that around. And that’s, I mean, it was started in Eden. I didn’t do it. That girl did it.   JULIE ROYS  14:53 Blame it on the Lord.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:54 Right, of course, but it’s been in us since the beginning. And so our go to thing is when somebody points the finger at us about anything, whether it’s true or not, our first thing is to take care of ourselves. That’s our automatic response, and if what they have given us is true, we have to make it untrue. There’s some way we want to make it untrue because it disturbs us. If we make it true, we don’t want them to think about that. It’s going to hurt our job. It’s going to do whatever. So I don’t think we have really understood the depth of that and its claws on us. And I think that that makes us very vulnerable.   JULIE ROYS  15:47 Yeah, I’m still stunned. James McDonald, who I  reported on back. I mean, it started in 2018 but then he was fired from his church in 2019 and most of the elders stepped down. He is out there now today, even after assaulting a 59-year-old woman and breaking her femur, he is still out there proclaiming his innocence, and even with that blaming it on PTSD that he got from me reporting and this 59-year-old woman supposedly triggered, but by the way, just curious of your professional opinion on PTSD being triggered in a situation like that, to actually assault somebody?   DIANE LANGBERG 16:29 It’s a great cover up on their side.   JULIE ROYS  16:33 And what’s shocking is he got a professional counselor  in court to say that.   DIANE LANGBERG 16:40 If someone has been doing terrible things and actually really begins to see it and is hit by what they have done and grieving by what they have done, having them look like they have PTSD would be expected, but it’s at their own hands that it’s there. It’s not you who did this or said this, therefore I feel this which many abusers would do.   JULIE ROYS  17:06 and it is interesting how the blame often goes everywhere, except on the one person who’s caused it. Let’s talk about deception now with the abused and even with systems. I mean, it does always, I find it difficult to wrap my head around although I know it happens and I believe it happens, but the idea that somebody could be sexually abusing you, and yet you think that this is somehow okay spiritually, like you’re a Christian and  you’re able to believe the lies that are told you. Talk about that dynamic and how that plays into it.   DIANE LANGBERG 17:51 Well, I would say first of all that I don’t think we have really very much understanding of how deep deception is in all of us. No exceptions. No exception is Jesus Christ, and we do it quickly and easily. And anybody who’s raised children realizes it takes about two seconds after birth of them to figure it out. But you don’t have to teach them. It’s there. And so the way that we think is flawed, and I don’t think we start with that premise. We know other people where it’s flawed, but  we’re doing the right thinking, and we don’t expose or look at ourselves in those ways. So I think we have very little understanding of the depth of deception in individual humans, often on a daily basis, and then how that shapes and controls systems which only reinforce the deception that we have because we like the system. So it’s here since the beginning. It’s got deep roots.   DIANE LANGBERG 19:20 When I was a young girl, one of my grandmothers lived in the mountains of West Virginia, and I was staying with her for a couple of days, and she said to me, go downstairs to the cellar and bring up the clothes that we were washing. So I do, and we’re talking about a dirt floor cellar and the whole thing. So I go down into the cellar to get the clothes, and I started crying and screaming, and my grandmother came running, and I came running up the stairs. She turned on the lights, and she said, Watch. And then she said to me, if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. And that came back to me some years ago; in terms of deception, in organizations, in myself, in leaders, in whatever, turning on the lights. And that’s what Jesus did and does –  rats run! And then we have to make a choice. Number one, are we going to turn on the light? which most of us are very uncomfortable. I mean, I don’t need him. I get that turn on the light, and they will run.   JULIE ROYS  20:32 So good. I know at RESTORE in 2022 you made the comment that says how to when you were addressing how to recognize a wolf in the church, and you said, Well, one way is to not become one. And I saw  some pushback to that. I thought it was a fantastic point because I think  we all have this, and if we deny that we have it, that’s almost the scariest situation, because if you are not attending to your own heart, that’s when I think you are most likely to fall into this. But some people said, Oh, wait, isn’t this sin leveling? Because it takes a special kind of evil to be a pedophile or to sexually abuse someone, and not all of us are there. Speak to those folks who were saying that, and I think you know, and I understand where they’re coming from. What would you say to them?   DIANE LANGBERG 21:36 Well, I think, first of all, sin in itself is on a continuum. I mean, some sins do hideous damage to people that all the help in the world isn’t going to undo. You know, it’s not going to go away, really, until they see the face of Jesus. There are other things that we do, that we see, and we stop doing, or other people see us stop and we change. And things like, it’s all on a continuum. And the problem is, if you have, let’s say, as an adolescent, you start doing things to cover up things, which is pretty common in adolescence, frankly. Did you do this? No, I didn’t do this. Were you in this place? No, I was not. So forth.   JULIE ROYS  22:35 I’m not sure it’s just adolescents either.   DIANE LANGBERG 22:37 Oh I  know it’s not. The point is that it’s very young, and it happens when you can have a toddler. You ask them, “Did they do something? Did you spill this? No, you know, darn sure they were.   JULIE ROYS  22:51 It reminds me of my grandson who, four-year-old grandson who was asked if he did something. He said, No, my mind made me do that. My mind told me to do that.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:04 Well, that’s a keeper number one and number two, I mean, teach him when he has a different level brain to look at himself. But yes, it’s in all of us. And so when I said that what I’m saying is, don’t live even minorly in the way that perpetrators live. Don’t excuse harm to others. Doesn’t have to be sexual abused, It could be a rude person. Don’t excuse that rudeness. Don’t treat other people  as if they have no value or they can easily be discarded or whatever.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:43 It is the things that grow and control if we keep doing them that we don’t theoretically want to do. And that’s what I mean by that. Look at yourself and  we are very good at saying, Well, I did do this, but I didn’t do that. We do that all the time, and we’re leveling it, and we’re not looking at ourselves in the light when we do that. That’s what we’re called to do.   JULIE ROYS  24:16 I love that you say, put rudeness up there and not honoring people as made in God’s image. I find sometimes it’s hard to remember that even the perpetrator was made in God’s image. And someone who’s taught me a great deal about that is Lori Anne Thompson. I have never heard her dehumanize another human being. Again, for those who don’t know her, she was one of the victims of sexual abuse by Ravi Zacharias. I’ve never heard her do that, and I find being around her makes me a better person, because I always hear her honoring every person. Not that she won’t call them words that they rightly have owned,  but to remember that every single person is made in God’s image and treat them. ,   DIANE LANGBERG 25:09 Yes, you will never meet somebody who is not, even if they’ve got their bodies six feet waiting in hell. They were made in the image of God.   JULIE ROYS  25:23 It reminds me of CS Lewis, who said, “We will never meet a mere mortal.   DIANE LANGBERG 25:28 Right? Yes, which does not mean being easy on it. That’s one of the places many people get confused. If I think this way, then I but actually, if you really think that way and love somebody, I mean they’re dancing in hell, for crying out loud, if they’re abusing children or something like that. The gift to them is the truth and turning on the lights so the rats run .   JULIE ROYS  25:56 Absolutely. And repentance is a gift. And the best thing we can do is call them to repentance, and I try to keep that in the forefront of my work too, that that is always my hope. Do I want them to be removed from spiritual positions? Yes, but ultimately we pray for their soul. Ultimately we pray that they would repent.   JULIE ROYS  26:19 When you talk about the deception that operates in these systems. There’s a lot of, I mean, even psychologically, what’s going on with, I think, the staff, with the people, the lay people, as they hear things. And you talked about something called Truth Default Theory. Would you explain what that is and how that often is in operation when these things begin to get revealed?   DIANE LANGBERG 26:51 The best way to find out what that is to read that section of the book, frankly. And it’s not a short thing to explain, so to speak. But people choose to lie because they think the outcome will be good. If you tell the truth of a big mess, the outcome will be bad, which there’s some truth to that . You’re going to blow something up if you tell the truth. It’ll make a mess, and everything else. And so I think that people want to keep the system okay. And so you’ll see these places or whatever, where the leader has been sexually abusive, maybe for years and years, and they got rid of the leader, but they don’t go any deeper. They don’t go any deeper into it because this is the church, and we want it to be, we want it to thrive, and we’re glad that that stopped and all that kind of stuff. And we make it shallow. It’s not shallow. You can’t do harm like abuse or live with that harm for years or months or whatever, and then just walk away and be fine. It’s not a possibility. And so part of that is understanding the different ways that people hold on to systems. Now, this is my church. I love it. I’m going to protect it. Yes, he did those things, yes, they’re terrible, but we fired him, and that’s all. It’s shallow in terms of really understanding.   JULIE ROYS  28:37 And when we have this vested interest, we do seem to try, and we’ve seen this a lot, we seem to choose who we believe. And so often, I think people are just predisposed to believing the person who has the position of spiritual authority, and usually the victim is someone we’ve never heard of and often, one of the first things that the system does  to protect  their basically, this is their money maker, right? This is their image as a church or as a ministry, is that they will denigrate the person who’s bringing whether it’s a reporter, whether it’s the victims themselves bringing the allegations, and the people seem to be predisposed to just believing the person we want to believe.   DIANE LANGBERG 29:40 Yes, yes, yes. We want it to be okay. We want it just to go back to normal without the bad guy, they figured out. First of all, the understanding of how it seeps into everything, contaminates everything is not understood. So if the bad guy is gone, so to speak, then let’s just be fine. But if a bad guy had run a truck over a half of the denomination and nobody could walk, what would you do? That’s clear there is the harm, and it’s still there, even though the people who drove the trucks got kicked out. But with this kind of thing, I think it’s easier for people to push it away and say, well, the bad is gone. And, this is good, whatever.   JULIE ROYS  30:34 Talk about the larger system. So I often refer to it as the evangelical industrial complex. I think you refer to it a little bit differently, but it’s the same thing. Often it’s not just the particular institution where there’s allegations being raised, but there’s an entire system behind that nation, a denomination, or even a camp like I think we saw that with Mike Bickle and sort of the International Houses of Prayer and their related ministries, and even that seeped into the Messianic ministries that were very much a part of this. Talk to those who maybe are somewhat naive about how these systems work. Because I know before, before I got a job several decades ago at Moody Radio, I didn’t know this existed. I was kind of like, pretty blind to it all. And I just thought, these are all wonderful ministries. And I think a lot of people believe that and  I wish it were all true; some of them are wonderful ministries. But talk about that system and  how it  exists and how it works.   DIANE LANGBERG 31:54 Well, even if you think of it just as a family or a big system like that,  the idea of the family, or the idea of a church, whatever. Those are good ideas. We love the idea. We want to help the idea. We want to make it grow. We want it to get bigger, and all of those things. And then something comes along that shows that there’s cancer  and so sometimes we ignore that. There’s plenty of organizations that do that. Sometimes the response is very superficial, and sometimes people really want to get rid of, say, those who are the source of the cancer, whatever, but they still aren’t doing any treatment for the cancer.   JULIE ROYS  32:42 Some of it’s quite carnal too, isn’t it? Just come down to, I mean, we’re talking dollars and cents with some of these.   DIANE LANGBERG 32:47 Oh my goodness, yes, fame and a whole lot of money.   JULIE ROYS  32:51 It really is amazing, once you get into this, when you realize how much the celebrity pastor supports the entire industry, whether it’s the mega church, whether it’s publishing, whether it’s Christian radio, because we rely on them for our programming and  to bring the big crowds,  or to bring the audience to a station, I mean, all of those things. And I think people don’t realize it is a billions, billions of dollars involved in evangelicalism.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:21 Be we tell ourselves, it’s all God’s work, and his message is getting out there, and people are hearing, and we have to protect that period .   JULIE ROYS  33:30 And despite the fact that these pastors are living in multi-million-dollar homes, sometimes multiple multi-million-dollar homes, and somehow we say they deserve it? like whether they deserve it or not, Christ didn’t live like.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:46  He certainly deserved it, right?   JULIE ROYS  33:50 And yet he, he never, you know, I always go back to Philippians two, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. But instead, emptied Himself and became a servant and it’s like we’ve forgotten that model. And sometimes I’m just like, wow.   DIANE LANGBERG 34:12 Well, I think in many ways, over, I don’t know how many decades, but that the Christian world has forgotten those things, which I can’t imagine how much grief we have caused our God.   JULIE ROYS  34:25 Despite these harms that you talk about in your book, and you explain, and we’ve talked about on this podcast, you express hope for the church. And I think a lot of folks are looking at the American church and not feeling very hopeful at all. Why do you feel that there’s hope?   DIANE LANGBERG 34:48 Because Jesus Christ exists. It goes back to him. But I have also in this work, met very fine, pastors, leaders, whatever, who have come in to see me, whether struggling with something or whatever, but who long to do right to please God, to love Jesus well, to love their people well. So I have not had a diet of only those who are either victims of terrible harm or doing the harm. I think if that’s all I’d had, I would have a much harder thing to think about in terms of my thoughts about God, and I did. There was a time, I don’t know how long ago it was now, some years where I decided I can’t do this anymore. It’s going to make me rotten  inside. And literally got down on my knees and said to God, okay, I’m done. You’ll have to let me know what other job you want me to do. Obviously, he did not do that, because I’m still there. That was a turning point for me in many ways, many of them wonderful. But you know, how much of that can you sit with and look at and not be made sick by it? If you’re not, something’s wrong with you. But if it does that to you, then, how do you deal with yourself?   JULIE ROYS  36:23 And I think one of the most insidious parts of religious abuse and trauma in the church is that it separates you often from community. And I have found, and I haven’t been in this nearly as long as you, but that community, and I think we need to sometimes redefine it. And I mean, I’m in a house church now, and I’ve talked about this on numerous podcasts, but it’s been a safe place for me. It’s been a wonderfully healing place for me. But it’s just been crucial. And I know not everybody has that opportunity, but somehow I just think we have to, we have to seek that out, even if it’s really difficult for us. And I understand some people need to take a break for a while, and I totally get that. And we had a very compassionate church, or house church, where there were a number of us that were wounded, that people were willing to sit with us in that and not try to make something out of what we were doing more than just loving people, which really is, I mean, that’s the essence of it, all right. Wow. That that you’re right. If all you encounter are toxic people doing toxic things, and I still feel this way to this day, the most beautiful people that I know still are Christians. Some of the most ugly ones that I’ve encountered are professing Christians, whether they know Christ, that’s between them and him. But yeah, I will still say  the most loving, beautiful human beings on this planet that I know are still Christians.   DIANE LANGBERG 38:16 Yes, and I have found that to be true. And I’ve sat with people sometimes for years working through growing up with abuse, churches abusing, I mean, just the idea that anybody can grow and have a life and bear good fruit out of all of that, it’s a miracle. But I watch it, it’s there, and it is a thing of beauty,   JULIE ROYS  38:43 Truly is. I’ve said this before, but you are an inspiration to me. I know you’re an inspiration to so many of the folks that are listening,. I would just love to know from you, and I know you, that there is no secret hill or secret formula. But as you’re looking back over five decades of work and your relationship with Jesus, what would be some things that you would say to us, and remaining true to the end, fighting the good fight, being able to say someday before Christ, or hearing him say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. We want to get there. How can we get there?   DIANE LANGBERG 39:40 Well, I think one of the things I would say is that I did try to quit once. I mean, I told God, I was quitting. I didn’t ask him anything. Probably, there’s something about me, of course, but I couldn’t do it. I was either gonna  react in ways that were harmful for people or just deaden myself. Those seem to be the only options, and that was a huge turning point for me. I obviously did stay with it. So he won, but he responded to me and helped me see things in way of the cross that I had not seen before, in who he is in his heart. So feel like quitting. I think that’s pretty normal, you know, and I think a lot of people do. But I think, yeah, I literally got down on my face on the floor, and said, I quit your turn, I don’t know what to do. But he responded, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so grateful I didn’t. I’ve learned more of him by staying I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also seen changes, not just in individuals, which I have, but in some systems, or at least portions of it was probably right.   JULIE ROYS  41:13 I mean obviously God could do all of the work that we do without us. He doesn’t need us, and yet he chooses to allow us to partner with what he’s doing in the world  and through that, we become different people. We become,  I’ve said it to my husband before, like I feel sometimes like he is making us more  enjoyable companions for him.   DIANE LANGBERG 41:44 Yes, we become more like Him. And you don’t feel it in the middle of it, and it takes a long time, but it’s somewhere along the way you look back and go, Oh, that’s not what I was like before. Has his aroma in it.   JULIE ROYS  42:01 Well, I just want to thank you so much for your work, for your writing, and I’m just absolutely thrilled that you’re coming to RESTORE in February. So looking forward to that. And a new thing thanks to Phil Monroe, your partner there, is having a pre-conference for counselors. Because, again, we need to minister to the counselors, to the caregivers, to the pastors, absolutely. And so I’m thrilled that we’re going to be able to do that, and you’re going to be able to participate in that. And then the conference as well and speaking to a lot of people who’ve been through an awful lot of church hurts. So very much looking forward to that. But thank you so much for taking the time today, and thank you for this new book, even though  we weren’t able to have you toward the last RESTORE, which, for me personally, was  a sacrifice, but definitely worth it in the book. So thank you.   DIANE LANGBERG 42:58 Well, thank you for having me, and I am glad for the work that you do. It touches people, but whose souls have been hurt, gives them a taste of light and love. So blessings on you..   JULIE ROYS  43:19 Thank you.   JULIE ROYS  43:22 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I would love to get you a copy of Diane’s latest book, When the Church Harms God’s People. This is our premium to donors this month. So if you give $40 or more to The Roys Report, we’ll send you a copy of Diane’s book. As many of you know, your gifts to this work is what makes it possible. We can’t do anything that we do, from our podcast to our daily reporting to our investigations, without your support. So please consider helping us out, and when you do, we’ll get you a copy of Diane’s book, When the Church Harms God’s People. To donate and get the book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Spotify, or YouTube, that way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlcMuch research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted? In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor's kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook. Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she's learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover. As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain. But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn't have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don't try to charge forward before the congregation has healed. Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It's also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who's in a church with others who've experienced deep church hurt. She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study. Guests Kayleigh Clark Kayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score. [00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. [00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast. [00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. [00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. [00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. [00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. [00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today. [00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now. [00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work? [00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy. [00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from. [00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here? [00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches. [00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working. [00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out. [00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma. [00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of. [00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple. [00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it. [00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen. [00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work. [00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that. We talk a lot about that on a lot of podcasts, but we often don’t address again, what’s this collective trauma that, that, you know, that it actually has a social aspect. So talk about why is it important that we begin addressing collective trauma and not just individual trauma, though, you know, obviously we each need to heal as individuals, but collectively as well. [00:08:24] Kayleigh: Yeah. So collective trauma is a newer field, even in psychological studies. So it’s, Not as old as individual trauma studies, and it actually became more popular through the work of Kai Erikson, who’s a sociologist. He’s not even a psychologist, but he studied collective trauma in kind of what he refers to as unnatural disasters. [00:08:43] Kayleigh: And so these disasters that are experienced by communities that have a human, like, blame component. So it was due to somebody’s negligence due to somebody’s poor leadership due to somebody’s abuse, and it’s on a community. And so Kai Erickson notes the, the social, he calls it the social dimension of trauma or collective trauma. [00:09:03] Kayleigh: And what he, he details there is that collective trauma is anything that disrupts and ruptures the, uh, relationships within a community. Distorting and taking apart their, uh, he calls it communality instead of community, but it’s their sense of, like, neighborliness. It’s their sense of being together. It’s their, Their shared identity and their, their shared memories are all now distorted. [00:09:26] Kayleigh: And so I think when we’re speaking specifically about the church, and when we’re looking at religious trauma and congregational trauma, we need to remember that the church is first and foremost, a community. And so sometimes I think that’s missed in our kind of American individualism. You know, a lot of people kind of view spirituality as this individualistic thing, but the church is a community. [00:09:48] Kayleigh: And so when we come together as the body of Christ, you know, when wounding happens, when trauma comes, it breaks down the relationships within that congregation, which really. is what makes it a church. The relationships are what make that a church. And so when trauma comes in and disrupts those and starts causing the divisions and the distrust and the he said, she said, and the choosing of sides and the church splits and all of these things have these ripple effects on the community. [00:10:19] Kayleigh: Um, and they really are, are traumatizing. And so what happens is that if we don’t deal, if we’re only dealing with the individual trauma, In part, that’s usually dealing with people who have left the church, right? And so usually the people who are seeking individual healing from their religious trauma, who are able to name that, who are able to say, I went through this, have often stepped outside of the church. [00:10:42] Kayleigh: Sometimes just for a season, which is completely understandable. They need that time away. They need time to heal. They’re, they don’t, feel safe. But what we’re missing when we neglect the social dimension of religious trauma are often the people who stay are these congregations who can’t name it yet, who can’t articulate that what they’ve gone through is religious trauma, who who maybe are still trying to figure out what that means. [00:11:07] Kayleigh: Often it means that we’re missing, um, you know, these, these the church that I served in, you know, isn’t one of these big name churches that’s going to get, you know, newscasted about. And they can’t necessarily name what happened to them as religious trauma because nobody’s given them the language for it. [00:11:25] Kayleigh: And so we’ve often missed these, these declining churches. We’ve missed because we haven’t remembered that Trauma is communal that trauma is relational. And so we need to, yes, provide as much care and as much resourcing as we can for the healing of individuals, because you can’t heal the community if the individuals don’t know. [00:11:44] Kayleigh: But we really need to remember that the community as a whole. impacted, and that especially when we’re talking about the church, we want to be able to heal and restore those relationships. And to do that means we have to address the social dimensions of the religious trauma. And so [00:12:01] Julie: often the people that, that stay aren’t aware of what’s happened to them. [00:12:08] Julie: Are they not even aware they’re traumatized? [00:12:11] Kayleigh: Right, right. Yeah. [00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. You introduced this, this concept, which is great. I mean, it’s, it’s a riff off of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which, you know, um, just an incredible book by, uh, Dr. Vander Kolk. But this idea that the body of Christ keeps the score. [00:12:33] Julie: Describe what you mean by that, that the body of Christ keeps the score when there’s this kind of trauma that it’s experiencing. [00:12:40] Kayleigh: Sure. So you kind of alluded to it earlier when you were giving an example of the removing of a toxic pastor, right? And then just the placement of a new pastor. And so often what happens in these situations where there’s spiritual abuse or, um, clergy misconduct or any of those things that’s causing this religious trauma, the answer seems to be, well, let’s just remove the. [00:13:00] Kayleigh: Problem person. And then that will solve everything. Um, well, what happens is we forget that trauma is embodied, right? And so you can remove the physical threat. Um, but if you remove the physical threat or the problem person, but this congregation still has this embodied sense of trauma in which they perceive threat now. [00:13:23] Kayleigh: So they’re reacting to their surroundings out of that traumatized position, because that’s what the collective body has learned to do. And so you see this, um, It’s a silly example, but I use it because I think people see it a lot. So you have a new pastor come in and the new pastor has a great idea, at least he or she thinks it’s a great idea. [00:13:46] Kayleigh: And it probably has to do with removing pews or changing carpet color. Okay. And so they present this, what they think is just a great harmless idea. And the response of the congregation is almost volatile and the pastor can’t figure out why. And often, unfortunately, what pastors have kind of been taught to identify is that they must just idolatry. [00:14:11] Kayleigh: They just have the past as an idol for them and they need to kill this golden cow. Right. And so it becomes this theological problem. Sure, there might be cases where that is the truth, but often I would say that there’s, um, a wonderful. So another great book on trauma. It’s more on racialized trauma, but it deals a lot with historical trauma is, um, rest my Mac mannequins book, um, my grandmother’s hands and in it, he addresses this historical trauma that is embodied and he quotes Dr. [00:14:42] Kayleigh: Noel Larson, who says, if it’s hysterical, it’s probably historical. In other words, if the reaction to the thing happening doesn’t seem to match, like it seems out of proportion, either too energized or not enough energy around it, it’s probably connected to some kind of historical trauma that hasn’t been processed. [00:15:03] Kayleigh: And so we see this a lot in churches who are having a hard time being healthy and flourishing and engaging with the community around them. And. The reason why is often because they have this unhealed trauma that nobody’s given them language for. Nobody’s pointed out, nobody’s addressed for them. Um, and so it’s just kind of lingering under the surface, unhealed, unnamed, and it’s informing how they believe, how they act. [00:15:33] Kayleigh: Um, and so this is really What I mean when I say the body of Christ keeps the score is that the body of Christ has embodied this trauma and it’s coming out in their behaviors, in their actions, in their values, and our pastors are not equipped to address it from a trauma informed perspective. They’ve only been given tools to address it from maybe a theological position, or this kind of revitalization remissioning perspective. [00:16:02] Kayleigh: That often doesn’t work. [00:16:04] Julie: There’s so many things I’m thinking as as you’re talking. I mean one. to come in and do something. And then because people react to, I mean, basically that’s shaming them. It’s guilting them to say, Oh, you have an idol or what’s wrong with you that you can’t get on board. And the truth is they don’t know what’s wrong with them. [00:16:23] Julie: They, they don’t. And, and they’re hurt. And all they know is you just, they’re hurt and now you’ve hurt them. So now they don’t trust you. So way to go. Um, but I’m thinking maybe because we brought this up and I don’t mean to beat up on, on Willow Creek, but I’m thinking about. When the new pastor came in, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy, um, you know, they, they were bleeding money. [00:16:45] Julie: Obviously they, they did not have the resources they did before. So one of the first things they did was they centralized, which meant the campus pastors weren’t going to be preaching anymore. They were going to be pumping in video sermons. Here’s the pastor that people trusted on these campuses. Now, that person’s not going to be preaching, which then of course, all of them left. [00:17:06] Julie: They ended up leaving and the trauma you’d now it’s trauma upon trauma. And it just seems like, especially in so many of these churches, you bring somebody in and they want to move somewhere like, right. They want a thriving church. What they don’t want to do is be at a church and sit in your pain. And yet. [00:17:27] Julie: Unless that’s done, I mean, can these churches, I mean, can they move forward? I mean, what’s going to happen if you come in and you don’t? slow down and say, these people are hurting and I need to, I need to be a shepherd. Then that’s the other thing. It’s so many of these mega churches, and I know this isn’t unique to mega churches that this happens, but I, it’s the world in which I report so often is that these mega churches are very mission vision, five year plan oriented and what they’re not capable of doing. [00:17:59] Julie: I think so many of these, you know, and they always bring in the, the pastor. That’s a good orator, maybe not a shepherd at all. In fact, some of these guys even say, I’m not a shepherd, which that’s another, yeah, I mean, but, but to actually, they need a shepherd at that point. Right. I mean, these, these people need it. [00:18:20] Julie: So, I mean, again, what, what do they need to do? And what happens if they don’t do some of these things? [00:18:28] Kayleigh: So the thing that I have really been drawn to, especially as I study Jesus, and I look at what it means to be trauma informed in the pastorate. So I, I do believe that God is still working through pastors. [00:18:39] Kayleigh: Um, in fact, there’s a really beautiful section of scripture in Jeremiah 23, where God is addressing abusive shepherds and God’s response is, I will raise up new shepherds. So God still wants to work through shepherds. There is still a place for a pastor. The problem is, is I don’t think we’ve taught pastors how to lead out of a posture of compassionate curiosity. [00:19:03] Kayleigh: And so if you follow Jesus and you look at the way that Jesus interacts with hurting people, it is out of this beautiful, humble posture of compassionate curiosity. And so I was always struck by like, he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? And it always seemed like a. That’s a strange question. [00:19:20] Kayleigh: Like, he’s blind, Jesus. What do you think he and often it’s preached on, like, well, we need to be able to tell God what we want. And that’s maybe some of it. But I think it’s also the truth that God knows that it can be re traumatizing to somebody to tell them what they need and what they want. Right? So what we learned when we studied trauma is that it’s not. [00:19:40] Kayleigh: So especially when we’re talking trauma caused by abuse is that abuse is so connected to control. And so what has often happened to these victims of religious abuse of spiritual abuse is that they have had control taken from them entirely. And so when a new pastor comes in and tells them, this is what you need to get healthy again, and never takes the time to approach them from this. [00:20:02] Kayleigh: posture of compassionate curiosity, they can end up re traumatizing them. Um, but our pastors aren’t trained to ask these questions. And so, so often if you read, you know, and they’re well meaning books, you know, they’re, they’re trying to get to what’s going on in the heart of the church. They’re trying to get back to church health, but so many of the books around that have to deal with. [00:20:23] Kayleigh: Asking the church, what are you doing or what are you not doing? And trauma theory teaches us to ask a different question. And that question is what happened to you? And I think if pastors were trained to go into churches and ask the question, what happened to you and just sit with a church and a hold the church and, and listen to the stories of the church, they, they might discover that these people have never been given space to even think about it that way. [00:20:52] Kayleigh: You know, where they’ve just, they’ve had abusive leaders who have just been removed or they’ve had manipulative leaders who have just been removed and they’ve just been given a new pastor and a new pastor and nobody’s given them the space. To articulate what that’s done to them, um, as individuals and as a congregation. [00:21:09] Kayleigh: And so if we can learn to, to follow Jesus in just his curiosity, and he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? He, he says, who touched me when the woman reaches out and touches him. And that’s not a, it’s not a question of condemnation. That’s a question of permission giving. He knows that this woman needs more than physical healing. [00:21:28] Kayleigh: She needs relational healing. She needs to tell her story. And by pausing and saying, who touched me? He provides a space for her to share her story that she’s never been able to share with anyone before. And I think if we were to follow that Jesus, as pastors and as leaders, we would begin to love the Bride of Christ in such a way that would lead to her healing, instead of feeling the need to just rush her through some five year plan to what we think is healing and wholeness, and what actually may not be what they would say is what they need. [00:22:02] Julie: So many things you’re saying are resonating with me. And part of that’s because, uh, like I said, we’re living this. Um, I, I told you last week when we talked that our, our house church was going on a retreat, first retreat we’ve ever had. We’ve been together a little over, well, for me, I came in about two years ago and I think they had been meeting maybe eight or nine months before then. [00:22:29] Julie: Some of the people in our group, Um, don’t come out of trauma. Um, you know, one of our, one of the couples in our church, uh, they’re like young life leaders, really just delightful, delightful, delightful people, but they haven’t lived the religious trauma. One couple is, they’re from the mission field and they had a great missions experience. [00:22:55] Julie: The only trauma they might be experiencing is coming home to the U. S. The truth is they love the mission field, right? Um, and then. The remainder of us come from two, two churches, um, that, that had some sexual abuse that was really, you know, mishandled and the trust with the leaders was, was broken in really grievous ways. [00:23:19] Julie: Um, and then there’s me on top of having that, um, living in this space where, I mean, I just report on this all the time. And so, but one of the beautiful things that happened in this, in this group is that it did have leaders when we came into it and it triggered us. Like, you know, and for us it was like, oh, here’s the inside group and the outside group. [00:23:47] Julie: Like, we’re used to the ins and the outs, right? And, and we’re used to the inside group having power and control, and the rest of us just kind of go along with it. And, and we’re, we’re a tiny little group. Like we’re 20 some people, right? But, but it’s just, and, and we’re wonderful people. Wonderful people. [00:24:02] Julie: And yet we still like, it was like, mm. And um, and so. The beautiful thing is that those leaders recognize, like they didn’t fully understand it, but they said, you know, I think we need to just step down and just not have leaders. And I didn’t even realize till we went on this retreat what an act of service and of love that was for them to just say, were laying down any, any agendas we might’ve had, any even mission or vision that we might’ve had. [00:24:35] Julie: And for one of, you know, one of the guys, it was really hard for him cause he’s just like, Mr. Mr. Energy and initiative. And, and he was like, I better not take initiative because like, it’s, it’s not going to be good for these folks. Um, and on the retreat. So then, I mean, it was, it was really a Holy Spirit. [00:24:54] Julie: experience, I think for all of us, because there definitely was a camp that was like, okay, we’ve had this kind of healing time, but can, can we move forward a little bit? Like, can we, can we have some intentionality? And then there were part of us that were just like, oh my word, if we, if we, if we have leaders, why do we need leaders? [00:25:12] Julie: We’re 20 something people. Like we can just decide everything ourselves. And, and there really was somewhat of an impasse, but it’s interesting. The things that you said for me, And it was funny at one point. They’re like, can’t you just trust? And, you know, kind of like, what, what are you guys afraid of? You know? [00:25:29] Julie: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was control control. Like we’re afraid of control, um, or I’m afraid of control. Um, but what was so, so. Huge for me and I think was one of those again, Holy Spirit moments was when, you know, I was trying to like make a point about power dynamics, like you don’t realize power and like we have to be aware of how power is stewarded in a group like this because everybody has power. [00:25:59] Julie: If you don’t realize as a communicator the power that you have, like I’m aware now that because I can, I can form thoughts pretty quickly. That I can have a lot of influence in a group. I’m aware of that. And so, you know, there was even like a part where I was leading and then I was like, I can’t lead this next thing. [00:26:17] Julie: I’ve been leading too much, you know, and then we, and then we gave, we, somebody had a marker and we gave the marker to, to, um, one of the guys in our group who’s fantastic guy. And, um, And at one point, so, so anyway, I was talking about power and, and one of the guys was like, well, I don’t, I don’t really see power. [00:26:35] Julie: I don’t need. And I’m like, you have it, whether you realize it and you have it. And what was huge is that one of the other guys that sort of a leader was a leader was able to say what she’s talking about is real. Everybody has power. This is really important. And he was quite frankly, somebody with a lot of power in that group because he has a lot of trust, used to be a pastor. [00:26:57] Julie: Um, and for him to acknowledge that for the rest of us was huge. And then this, this other guy, I mean, he said at one point, Oh, well, you know, so and so’s holding the marker right now and he has power, doesn’t he? And I was like, yes, you’re getting it. That’s it. That’s it. Thank you. Because he’s like, you just reframed what we said and I wouldn’t have reframed it that way. [00:27:22] Julie: Like I wouldn’t. And I’m like, yes, exactly. It’s like, and it was like, it was like the light bulbs were going on and people were starting to get it. Um, and then another key, key moment was when one of the women who, you know, wasn’t, you know, from our church where we experienced stuff, who said, can you, can you tell me how that, how that felt for you when we used to have leaders? [00:27:46] Julie: And then for people to be able to express that. And people listened and it was like, and I was able to hear from this guy who felt like he was, he had a straight jacket, you know, because he, he like wants to use his, his initiative. Like he, he. You know, and God’s given that to him. It’s a good thing, you know. [00:28:07] Julie: And all I can say is it was just an incredible experience, an incredible moment, but it would not have happened if, and now I’m going to get kind of, it wouldn’t have happened if people cared more about the mission than the people. And they didn’t realize the people are the mission. This is Jesus work. He doesn’t care about your five year plan. [00:28:41] Julie: He doesn’t care about your ego and the big, you know, plans that you have and things you can do. What he cares is whether you’ll lay your life down for the sheep. That’s what shepherds do. And what I saw in, in our group was the willingness to, for people that have shepherding gifts to lay down their, you know, not literally their lives, but in a way their lives, their, their dreams, their hopes or visions, everything to love another and how that created so much love and trust, you know, in our group. [00:29:22] Julie: And we’re still like trying to figure this out, but yeah, it was, it was hugely, it just so, so important. But I thought how many churches are willing to do that, are willing to, to sit in the pain, are willing to listen. And I’m, I’m curious as you go in now, there’s so much of your work has become with ReStory is, is education and going into these churches. [00:29:52] Julie: You know, normally when this happens, And you told me there’s a, there’s a name for pastors that come in. It’s the afterpastor. Afterpastor. [00:30:00] Kayleigh: Yes. The afterpastor. [00:30:02] Julie: How many times does the afterpastor get it? And does he do that? [00:30:07] Kayleigh: So the problem is, and I can tell you, cause I have an MDiv. I went, I did all the seminary. [00:30:11] Kayleigh: I’m ordained. We don’t get trained in that. Um, so, and there is, um, like you said, so you use this guy as an example who has the clear. Initiative gifts. So they’re what would be called kind of the Apostle, um, evangelist gifts in like the pastoral gift assessment kind of deal. You’ve got the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. [00:30:34] Kayleigh: And right now there’s a lot of weight kind of being thrown behind the Apostle evangelist as kind of the charismatic leader who can set the vision. And so most of the books on pastoral You know, church health and church are written kind of geared and directed that way. Um, so we’re really missing the fact that when we’re talking about a traumatized church, what you really need is a prophet shepherd. [00:30:57] Kayleigh: Um, you need somebody who can come in and shepherd the people and care for them well, but also the prophet. The role of the prophet is often to help people make meaning of their suffering. So if you read closely, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, particularly who are two prophets speaking to people in exile, what they’re really doing is helping people make meaning of that suffering. [00:31:17] Kayleigh: They’re helping people tell their story. They’re, they’re lamenting, they’re crying with them. They’re, they’re asking the hard questions. Um, and they’re able to kind of see between the lines. So prophet, Pastors who have kind of that prophetic gifting are able to see below. They’re able to kind of slow down and hear the actual story beyond the behaviors, right? [00:31:35] Kayleigh: So the behaviors aren’t telling the whole story, but we need eyes to see that. And so the problem, I would say, is that a lot of well, meaning pastors simply aren’t taught how to do this. And so they’re not given the resources. They’re not given kind of the, um. this like Christian imagination to be able to look at a church and say, okay, what has happened here and what healings take place here? [00:31:59] Kayleigh: Um, the other problem is, you know, we need to be able to give space. So denominational leaders need to be able to be okay with a church that maybe isn’t going to grow for a few years. And I think that is whether we like it or not. And we can say all day long that we don’t judge a church’s health by its numbers. [00:32:19] Kayleigh: But at the end of the day, pastors feel this pressure to grow the church, right? To have an attendance that’s growing a budget that’s growing and. And so, and part of it is from a good place, right? We want to reach more people from Jesus, but part of it is just this like cultural pressure that defines success by numbers. [00:32:36] Kayleigh: And so can we be okay with a church that’s not going to grow for a little while? You know, can we be okay with a church that’s going to take some like intentional time to just heal? And so when you have an established church, um, which is a little bit different than a house church model, it can be. A really weird sacrifice, even for the people who are there, because often what you have is you have a segment of the church who is very eager to move forward and move on and and to grow and to move into its new future, and they can get frustrated with the rest of the church. [00:33:15] Kayleigh: That kind of seems to need more time. Um, but trauma healing is it’s not linear. And so, you know, you kind of have to constantly Judith Herman identifies like three components of trauma healing. And so it’s safety and naming and remembering and then reconnecting, but they’re not like you finish safety and then you move to this one and then you move to this one. [00:33:36] Kayleigh: Often you’re kind of going, you’re ebbing and flowing between them, right? Because you can achieve safety and then start to feel like, okay, now I can name it. And then something can trigger you and make you feel unsafe again. And so you’re now you’re back here. And so, um, um, Our churches need to realize that this healing process is going to take time, and collective trauma is complicated because you have individuals who are going to move through it. [00:33:57] Kayleigh: So you’re going to have people who are going to feel really safe, and they’re going to feel ready to name, and others who aren’t. And so you have to be able to mitigate that and navigate that. And our pastors just aren’t simply trained in this. And so what I see happening a lot is I’ll do these trainings and I’ll have somebody come up to me afterwards and go, Oh my goodness, I was an after pastor and I had no idea that was a thing. [00:34:18] Kayleigh: And they’re like, you just gave so much language to my experience. And you know, and now I understand why they seem to be attacking me. They weren’t really attacking me. They just don’t trust the office of the pastor. And I represent the office of the pastor. Okay. And so sometimes they take that personally again, it becomes like these theological issues. [00:34:38] Kayleigh: And so helping pastors understand the collective trauma and being able to really just take the time to ask those important questions and to increase not only their own margin for suffering, but to increase a congregations margin for suffering. You know, to go, it’s going to be, we can sit in this pain. [00:34:58] Kayleigh: It’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s going to be important, you know, learning how to lament, learning how to mourn. All of these things are things that often we’re just not trained well enough in, um, as pastors. And so therefore our congregations aren’t trained in them either. You know, they don’t have margin for suffering either. [00:35:14] Kayleigh: Um, and so we need to be able to equip our pastors to do that. Um, and then equip the congregations to be able to do that as well. [00:35:20] Julie: So good. And I’m so glad you’re doing that. I will say when I first started this work, um, I was not trauma informed. I didn’t know anything about trauma really. And I didn’t even, you know, I was just a reporter reporting on corruption and then it turned into abuse in the church. [00:35:38] Julie: And I started interfacing with a lot of abuse victims. who were traumatized. And I think back, um, and, and really, I’ve said this before, but survivors have been my greatest teachers by far, like just listening to them and learning from them. But really from day one, you know, it’s loving people, right? It really, it like, if you love and if you empathize, which You know, some people think it’s a sin, um, just cannot, um, but if you do that and, and that’s what, you know, even as I’m thinking about, um, within our own, our own house church, there were people who weren’t trained, but they did instinctively the right things because they loved. [00:36:28] Julie: You know, and it just reminds me, I mean, it really does come down to, they will know you are Christians by your love. You know, how do we know love? Like Christ laid down his life for us. He is our model of love and, and somehow, you know, like you said, the, in the church today we’ve, we’ve exalted the, um, what did you say? [00:36:49] Julie: The apostle evangelist? The apostle evangelist. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we’ve exalted that person, um, you know, And I think we’ve forgotten how to love. And too many of these pastors don’t know how to love. They just don’t know how to love. And it’s, it’s tragic. Because they’re supposed to be I mean, the old school models, they were shepherds, you know, like you said, like we need apostles, we need evangelists. [00:37:16] Julie: But usually the person who was leading the church per se, the apostles and evangelists would often end up in parachurch organizations. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. I think the church needs all of those things. Um, and, uh, But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve left that behind, sadly. And there’s nothing sexy about being a shepherd. [00:37:37] Kayleigh: Yeah, no, I, all, all of the Apostle, I mean that, well, the whole thing is needed, um, and it’s most beautiful when we just work together, and, and when they can respond to each other. So, I mean, me and you’re an example in your house, you’re a visiting example of this. You can’t, even if just listening, you have some clear Apostle evangelists in your group, right? [00:37:54] Kayleigh: I mean, Um, right? And so you have these people wired for that, and yet they’re able to, to learn and respond to some of the people in the group who have more of those prophet shepherd tendencies. And so I think that that’s really what, and that’s loving, right? So we should go back. It’s just loving one another and learning from one another. [00:38:17] Kayleigh: And knowing when to lean into certain giftings and to learn from others giftings. This is why it’s the body of Christ. And so when a component of the body of Christ is left out, we can’t be who God’s called us to be. And so when we neglect the role of the shepherd and neglect the role of the prophet or minimize them, or see them as secondary, then we’re not going to do called us to be. [00:38:44] Kayleigh: You know, we may need all of it to come together to do what God has called us to do. God is working in this church. He’s worked all through this church. He has established it and called it, and He’s going to use it. But we need to be learning how He has built it and how He framed it. For me to love one another and not elevate one gifting above another. [00:39:07] Julie: And it’s interesting too, you mentioned the office of the pastor. Um, I know as we were discussing some of this, we have one guy who’s very, I mean, actually our entire group, and I think this is probably why we’ve been able to navigate some of this. It’s it’s a really spiritually mature group. A lot of people. [00:39:26] Julie: who have been in leadership, um, which sometimes you get a lot of leaders together and it can be, you know, but this hasn’t been that way because I think people really do love the Lord. Um, and they love each other. Um, but one of the things that was brought up, um, is Is the pastor an office or is it a role and have we made it into an office and, and what we realized in the midst of that and I, you know, I, I’m like, well, that’s really interesting. [00:39:57] Julie: I would like to study that. And I find there, there’s a curiosity when you talk compassionate curiosity, I think there’s also a curiosity in, in people who have been through this kind of trauma. There’s a curiosity in, okay, what, what did we do? that we did because everybody said that’s how we’re supposed to do it. [00:40:18] Kayleigh: Yeah. [00:40:18] Julie: Yeah. Do I really have that conviction? Could I really argue it from scripture? Is this even right? And so I find even in our group, there is a, there is a, um, there’s a curiosity and maybe this is because we’re coming through and we’re in, you know, I think a later stage of healing is that now we’re like really curious about what should we be? [00:40:44] Julie: Yes. Yes. What should we be, like, we, we want to dig into what, what is a church, what should it really be, and what, why, how could we be different? Of course, always realizing that you can have the perfect structure and still have disaster. Um, it really does come down to the character of the people and, and that, but, but yeah, there’s a real, Curiosity of, of sort of, um, digging, digging into that. [00:41:10] Julie: And, and let me just, I can ask you, and, and maybe this will be a rabbit trail, maybe we’ll edit it out. I don’t know. Um, , but, but I am curious what do, what do you think of that idea that the, the pastorate may be a role that we’ve made into an office and maybe that could be part of the problem? [00:41:27] Kayleigh: I think that’s a lot of it. [00:41:28] Kayleigh: Um, because when we turn the, the pastorate into an office, we can lose the priesthood of all believers. So that I think is often what happens is that, um, you create this pastoral role where now all of the ministry falls on to the pastor. And so instead of the pastor’s role being to equip the saints for the ministry, which is what scripture says, the scripture describes a pastor as equipping the saints for the ministry. [00:41:56] Kayleigh: Now the pastor is doing the ministry, right? There’s, there’s just all of this pressure on the pastor. And that’s, that’s where I think we start to see this. The shift from the pastor being the one who is, you know, encouraging and equipping and edifying and, you know, calling up everybody to live into their role as the body of Christ where we’ve seen. [00:42:19] Kayleigh: You know, I have a soft spot for pastors. Again, I’m like, they’re all my relatives are them. I love pastors and I know some really beautiful ones who get into ministry because that’s exactly what they want to do. And so what has often happened though, is that the, the ways of our culture have begun to inform how the church operates. [00:42:40] Kayleigh: And so we saw this, you know, when, when the church started to employ business In kind of the church growth movement. So it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to grow things? Business people know how to grow things. Okay. Well, what are they doing? Right. And so now that the pastor is like the CEO, people choose their churches based on the pastor’s sermon, right? [00:43:00] Kayleigh: Well, I like how this pastor preaches. So I’m going to go to that church. Um, so some of it is. So I would say that not all of it is pastors who have like that egotistical thing within them at the beginning. Some of it is that we know that those patterns exist. But some of these men and women are genuinely just love the Lord’s people and then get into these roles where they’re all of a sudden like, wait, I, Why, why is it about me and others, this pressure to preach better sermons and the person down the road or, you know, run the programs and do all of these things instead of equipping the people to do the work of God. [00:43:38] Kayleigh: And so I think it’s, it’s about, and right, I think it’s happened internally in our churches, but I also think there’s this outward societal pressure that has shifted the pastor from this shepherding role to the CEO office. Um, And finding the, like, middle ground, right? So again, like, we can swing the pendulum one way and not have pastors. [00:44:05] Kayleigh: Or we can swing the pendulum the other way and have pastors at the center of everything. But is there a way of finding, kind of, this middle ground where people who are fairly calm and gifted and anointed by God to do rich shepherding can do it in a way that is Zen sitting that church that is equal famous saint that is calling the body of Christ to be what it is called be. [00:44:27] Kayleigh: And I guess I’m, I’m constantly over optimistic and so I’m convinced that there’s gotta be a way , that we can get to a place where pastors can live out of their giftings and live by their callings and live out of their long dreams in such a way. That leads to the flourishing health of the church and not to its destruction. [00:44:45] Julie: Yes. And, and I think if it’s working properly, that absolutely should be there. They should be a gift to the church. Um, and, and sadly we just, we haven’t seen enough of that, but that is, that is, I think the model. Um, let’s talk specifically, and we have talked, or we might not have named it, um, but some of the results of this collective trauma. [00:45:08] Julie: in a congregation. Um, let’s, let’s name some of the things. These are ways that this can, that this can play itself out. [00:45:17] Kayleigh: Sure. So when we’re talking about congregational collective trauma, one of the main results that we’ve talked about kind of in a roundabout way is this lack of trust that can happen within the congregation. [00:45:27] Kayleigh: And this can be twofold. We can talk about the lack of trust for the leadership, but it all also can be lack of trust. Just, In the congregation itself, um, this often happens, particularly if we’re looking at clergy misconduct that maybe wasn’t as widespread. So I think this is some of what you’ve kind of talked about with Willow Creek a little bit, and I’m, I wasn’t in that situation, but I’ve seen it other places where, you know, in our system, the denominational leadership removes a pastor. [00:45:56] Kayleigh: And so what can happen in a system like that is that denominational leadership becomes aware of abuse. They act on the abuse by removing the pastor. And what you have happening is kind of this, um, Betrayal trauma or this, you know, bias against believing. And so because the idea that their clergy person who they have loved and trusted, you know, shepherd them could possibly do something that atrocious. [00:46:24] Kayleigh: That idea is too devastating for them to internalize. So it feels safer to their bodies to deny it. And so what can happen is you can have a fraction of the church. that thinks it’s, you know, all made up and that there’s no truth to it. And they began to blame the denominational leadership as the bad guys or that bad reporter that, you know, the [00:46:45] Julie: gossip monger out there. [00:46:47] Julie: It’s so bad. [00:46:48] Kayleigh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you have this split. Now, sometimes it literally splits and people will leave. Um, but sometimes they don’t and they all stay. And so you have these fractions of people who believe different things about what happened. And so now there’s, there’s a lack of shared identity. [00:47:08] Kayleigh: So I would say one of the key components of collective trauma in a congregation is this mistrust, which is often connected to a lack of shared identity. And so they can’t really figure out who they are together. What does it mean for us to be a community to get there? Um, and so trauma begins to write their story. [00:47:27] Kayleigh: And so when we talk about the embodiment of trauma, one of the ways that that works in individuals, and this is like a mini neuroscience lesson that many of your listeners are probably aware of, because I think you have a very trauma informed audience. Audience, but, um, you know, that it, it makes us react out of those fight, flight, or freeze responses. [00:47:46] Kayleigh: And so that happens individually, right? So something triggers us and all of a sudden we’re at our cortisol is raised. We’re acting out of the, uh, you know, those flight flight places that happens communally too. So a community gets triggered by, you know, a pastor again, having what they think is just a creative idea, you know, but maybe it triggers that time that that pastor. [00:48:09] Kayleigh: Had a creative idea that was, you know, and ran with it without talking to anybody and just like wield the control and manipulated people. And now, all of a sudden, this pastor who thinks they just have this innocent, creative idea is now seen as manipulative. And what are they going to try to do behind our backs? [00:48:27] Kayleigh: And what are they going to try? And, and. What are they going to take from us? Right? And so trauma, trauma takes from people. And so now they’re living kind of out of this perpetual perceived fear, perceived threat, that something else is going to be lost. And so when you have a congregation that’s constantly operating out of, you know, this fight, flight, or freeze response. [00:48:52] Kayleigh: Collectively, I mean, how can we expect them to live out the mission that God has given them? Um, you know, they’re not, they’re not there. They’re not able to, um, they’re not able to relate to one another in a healthy way. And so we, we see a lack of kind of intimate relationships in these congregations, right? [00:49:09] Kayleigh: Because so the Deb Dana, who has helped people really understand the polyvagal theory, when we’re talking about, um, trauma talks about your, your, um, Nervous system, your autonomic nervous system is kind of being like a three rung ladder. And so in this three rung ladder, you have the top rung being your ventral bagel state, which is where you can engage with people in safe and healthy ways. [00:49:32] Kayleigh: And then you move down into kind of your sympathetic nervous system. And this is where you’re in that fight flight freeze and then dorsal bagels at the bottom. And in those two middle and bottom, you can’t build these deep relationships. And again, deep relationships are what make a church a church. And so if you have a congregation that’s stuck in these middle to bottom rungs of this ladder, they’re, they’re fight, flight, freeze, or they’re withdrawing from one another. [00:49:54] Kayleigh: You’re, you’re losing the intimacy, the vulnerability, the safety of these congregations to build those kinds of relationships. And so I would say that, that distrust, that lack of shared identity and that inability to build deeper kind of relationships are three kind of key components of what we’re seeing in congregations who are carrying this collective trauma. [00:50:16] Julie: And yet, if you work through that together, like I will say right now, I feel a great deal of affection for, for everyone. Uh, in our house tours because we went through that chaos together, but also it was, it was an opportunity to see love and people lay down their lives for each other. So to, to be able to see, I mean, you begin writing a new story instead of that old story that’s been so dominant, you know, that you have to tell, you have to work through. [00:50:50] Julie: Yeah, you do. And, and, and you have, you do. I love where you say, you know, people need to, to hear that from you. Yeah. I think that’s really, really important for people to have a safe place. But then at the same time, you can’t, you don’t want to live the rest of your life there. You don’t want that to define, define you. [00:51:09] Julie: Um, and that’s, that’s what’s beautiful though, is if you work through it together, now you, you’ve got a new story, right? You’ve got, you’ve got Dodd doing something beautiful. Um, among you and, and that’s what he does. [00:51:23] Kayleigh: That’s why we call our organization Restory. Um, it is a word used in trauma theory and in reconciliation studies to talk about what communities who have experienced a lot of violence have to do is they have to get to a place where they’re able to, it’s exactly what you’re talking about with your house churches doing is you guys have kind of come to a place where you’re able to ask the question, who do we want to be now? [00:51:45] Kayleigh: And this is this process of restorying. And so what trauma does is in many ways, for a while, it tries to write our stories. And for a while, it kind of has, because of the way that it’s embodied, we kind of, it has to, right? Like we have to process like, okay, I’m reacting to this. trigger because of this trauma that’s happened. [00:52:05] Kayleigh: So how do I work through that? You know, how do I name that? How do I begin to tell that story? And so we, and we have to tell the story, right? Because I mean, trauma theory has been the dialectic of traumas, but Judith Herman talks about is it’s very unspeakable because it’s horrific, but it has to be spoken to be healed. [00:52:22] Kayleigh: Right. And so with this trauma, it can be hard to speak initially. But it needs to be spoken to be healed. But once we’ve done that, once we begin to loosen the control that trauma has on us. Once we’re able to speak it out loud, and then we can get to a place individually and communally where we can start to ask ourselves, Who do we want to be? [00:52:45] Kayleigh: And who has God called us to be? And no, things are not going to be the way they were before the trauma happened. I think that’s the other thing that happens in churches is there’s a lot of misconception. That healing means restoring everything to the way it was before. And when that doesn’t happen, there’s this question of, well, well, did we, did we heal? [00:53:06] Kayleigh: And we have to remember that we’re never going back to the way it was before the trauma happened. But we can begin to imagine what it can look like now. Once we begin to integrate the suffering into our story, and we begin to ask those helpful questions, and we take away the trauma’s control, now we can ask, who do we want to be? [00:53:24] Kayleigh: And we can begin to write a new beautiful story that can be healing for many others. [00:53:29] Julie: A friend of mine who has been through unspeakable trauma, I love when she talks about her husband, because they went through this together, and she often says, he’s like an aged fine wine. You know, and I love that because to me, no, you’re not going back to who you were, but in many ways who you were was a little naive, little starry eyed, a little, you know, and, and once you’ve been through these sorts of things, it is kind of like an aged fine wine. [00:54:01] Julie: You have, you’re, you’re aged, but hopefully in a beautiful way. And, you know, I, I think you’re way more compassionate. Once you’ve gone through this, you’re way more able to see another person who’s traumatized and And to, you know, reach out to that person, to love that person, to care for that person. And so it’s a beautiful restoring. [00:54:26] Julie: And we could talk about this for a very long time. And we will continue this discussion at Restore, [00:54:33] Kayleigh: um, because [00:54:34] Julie: you’re going to be at the conference and that was part of our original discussions. So folks, if you wanna talk more to Kaleigh , come to Restore. I, I’m, I’m gonna fit you in somehow because , I’m gonna be there. [00:54:46] Julie: you’re gonna be there. But do you just have a wealth of, uh, I think research and insights that I think will really, really be powerful? And I’m waiting for you to write your book because it needs to be written. Um, but I’m working on it. , thank you for, for taking the time and for, um, just loving the body. [00:55:07] Julie: And in the way that you have, I appreciate it. [00:55:09] Kayleigh: Well, thank you. Because, you know, when I heard about your work and your tagline, you know, reporting the truth, but restoring the church, you know, I was just so drawn in because that’s what we need. The church is worth it. The church is beautiful and she is worth taking the time to restore. [00:55:24] Kayleigh: And I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing to make sure that that that happens. [00:55:28] Julie: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast and our investigative journalism, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report to support our ongoing work? [00:55:47] Julie: As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors. We mainly have you. The people who care about our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’d like to help us out, just go to Julie Roy’s spelled R O Y S dot com slash donate. That’s Julie Roy’s dot com slash donate. [00:56:07] Julie: Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy’s report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. [00:56:29] Julie: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/v_OzUDcA3u0If you're like a lot of folks, you look put together on the outside. But inside, there's a constant churn of unprocessed shame, anger, or grief. Little by little, you're becoming disconnected from who you really are. But professor, author and licensed therapist, Chuck DeGroat, says it doesn't have to be this way. And on this podcast, he invites listeners to take the journey to true healing. You may know Chuck as the author of his very popular 2020 book, When Narcissism Comes to Church. But in his newest book, Healing What's Within, Chuck opens up about one of the most traumatic experiences of his life—when he got fired from his job at a church. Chuck did what a lot of us do when we're experiencing excruciating pain—he pushed it down and soldiered through. After all, he had a family to support and career to salvage. But eventually, that trauma began to manifest in his body. And he found he could no longer ignore the pain—or rely on his means of coping. He had to confront the profound disconnection he felt from himself, from others, and from God.  With the heart of a caring pastor and expertise of a licensed therapist, Chuck shows the way to hope and healing for the deep wounds within your soul. Guests Chuck DeGroat Chuck DeGroat is Professor of Pastoral Care and Christian Spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, and a faculty member of the Soul Care Institute. He is a therapist, speaker, consultant, pastor, and author of several books including When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. Chuck is married to Sara and has two daughters. Learn more at www.chuckdegroat.net Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWVNVNJg4n0 Normally, people think of grooming as the manipulative process a sexual predator uses to lure his unsuspecting prey. But these same grooming tactics are rife in cult-like churches. So says Mike Donahue, a child sexual abuse survivor who spent many adult years serving under popular author and youth leader, Jeanne Mayo. On this edition of The Roys Report, Mike joins host Julie Roys to tell his tragic but riveting story, revealing shocking truths about megachurch culture. During his childhood, Mike was abused and neglected, making him easy prey for sexual predators. These predators exploited his need for love and attention to fulfill their perverse sexual desires. After escaping these predators, Mike found hope in Jesus and became a Christian. Yet, instead of finding safety in the church, Mike says he found another predator: well-known author and youth leader Jeanne Mayo. Mike says Mayo exploited his same need for love and belonging—not to satisfy sexual appetites, but her craving for success and growth. In this eye-opening discussion, Mike reveals the predatory recruitment tactics he observed in Mayo's ministry and others, and then was coached and trained to imitate. But he also talks about his journey of discovery, and how he changed after being convicted that the way he was ministering was wrong. Guests Mike Donahue Mike Donahue is a highly sought-after speaker and author on the subjects of respect, bullying, and resiliency. Over the past three decades, he has addressed more than a million students and adults in-person including across the U.S., Asia, South America, and Europe. He has written five books including Hidden Scars and his latest book, Groomed. Mike and his wife, Rachel, who are parents of five children, live in Omaha, Nebraska. Learn more at his website.  Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/5I3m2AAHjAY Christian nationalism has taken over large swaths of the United States. But is this movement really Christian? And is it possible to engage with a Christian nationalist in a disarming way that doesn't end up in a fight? On this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys engages in a lively dialogue with Caleb Campbell—a one-time skinhead who became a Christian and then a pastor. And for the last 18 years, Caleb has been ministering in Phoenix—a hotbed of Christian nationalist fervor. Caleb shares candidly how Christian nationalism divided his church and left him so wounded, he had to take a months-long sabbatical. But he says God used this experience to soften his heart and motivate him to reach those ensnared by a powerful, growing movement. Drawing from his own experience leading congregants at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix—and his just-published book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor—Caleb provides a pastor's primer on Christian nationalism. How do you define this ideology? What are the concerns and potential harms, from both a pastoral and constitutional perspective? And what are some conversational approaches to disarm people who may be ensnared by it? During a contentious election year, this topic is a minefield—with critics waiting to pounce. This thoughtful and compassionate dialogue will help you navigate this minefield and love those with whom you disagree. Guests Caleb Campbell Caleb Campbell has been a pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, since 2006 and lead pastor since 2015. He is a doctoral student at Fuller Theological Seminary and a graduate of Phoenix Seminary. He serves as regional director for the Surge Network, an equipping and church planting organization. He is a co-founder of the J29 Coalition and the founder of Disarming Leviathan. His first book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, was published in 2024. He lives in Phoenix with his wife and children. Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/avV0ciCYqtg Ten years ago, Sharon Clements' world turned upside down. The pastor she trusted abused that trust and lured her into a sexual relationship. But when everything became public, her abuse was labeled an affair. And instead of receiving help, she received shame and rejection. In this edition of The Roys Report, Sharon speaks out—not just about the abuse, but about her road to recovery. The church where her abuse occurred—LexCity Church (formerly Quest Community Church) in Lexington, Kentucky—recently made headlines for another sex abuse scandal. And in the wake of that scandal, LexCity has closed. It's not often we see such a dramatic consequence to news like this. But then again, this is the second time LexCity has been rocked by scandal. The first time was in 2014 when then-Pastor Pete Hise admitted to an “affair” with Sharon Clements. This not only rocked the church but led to years of confusion and pain for Sharon. It wasn't until about a year later that Sharon discovered what adult clergy sex abuse (ACSA) is. And suddenly, things began to make sense—and Sharon began to heal. If you're a victim of ACSA or another type of abuse, you're going to really be encouraged by Sharon's story. Guests Sharon Clements Sharon Clements is the Co-Founder and Executive Director of The Way Home Ministries, a non-profit dedicated to helping people recover a life of thriving faith in the aftermath of spiritual abuse. She and her husband, Paul, live in Lexington, KY, along with their two golden retrievers, Sophie & Sadie Grace. Their adult children, Carolyne and Renner, live nearby, and family dinners together are one of their favorite nights of the week. Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/w2rB6NZogbgThe American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate. And, in a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger are rampant, people are turning elsewhere for help. In this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys welcomes Skye Jethani for a wide-ranging discussion on the crisis in the American church. Skye, a former editor at Christianity Today and former pastor, has for years co-hosted The Holy Post, a popular podcast. Recently, Skye wrote the provocatively titled book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In it, he looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in Scripture as a family—but in modern America, it's become a corporation. In its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtues of faith and love. As Skye writes, rather than feeling like valued members of God's family, today, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? For people who've had negative experiences in church and have lived through congregational crisis firsthand, this lively conversation brings clarity and hope. Guests Skye Jethani An award-winning author, speaker, and co-host of the Holy Post Podcast, Skye Jethani has written more than a dozen books and served as an editor and executive at Christianity Today for more than a decade. Raised in a religiously and ethnically diverse family, his curiosity about faith led him to study comparative religion before entering seminary and pastoral ministry. With a unique ability to connect Christian thought and contemporary culture, his voice has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Washington Post. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie Roys: There’s no doubt the American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, the distrust of the church is at an all-time high. Young people raised in the church are leaving at an alarming rate and we have a society where loneliness and spiritual hunger is rampant, but people are turning elsewhere for help. [00:00:21] Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roy-. And today I’m going to be discussing the crisis in the American church with Skye Jethani. Skye is a former editor at Christianity Today and a former pastor. He’s also co-host of the podcast, The Holy Post. [00:00:40] Julie Roys: And he’s a speaker and author of numerous books, including the provocatively titled, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? In the book, Skye looks at what the Bible really says about the church, then he compares that with some of the prevailing beliefs and values popular in the church today. For example, the church is commonly referred to in scripture as a family, but in modern America, it’s become a corporation. [00:01:05] Julie Roys: And in its pursuit of expansion, influence, and power, the church has sadly lost the essential Christian virtue of love. As Skye writes, now, rather than feeling like valued members of God’s family, many church members feel like replaceable cogs in a ministry machine. Is it any wonder that the church is suffering, and is it any wonder that people are leaving? [00:01:28] Julie Roys: I’m so excited to speak with Skye about the church, not just because he’s a great thinker and teacher, but because he’s my brother. Skye attends the same house church that my family attends, and I’ve seen his commitment to the church on a day to day, week by week basis, and it’s because of people like Skye that I haven’t given up on the church, even though I’ve had a ton of negative experiences. I still believe in the church. I still see her beauty. And so I’m so excited to share this podcast with you. [00:01:49] Julie Roys: But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. [00:02:16] Julie Roys: The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like- minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Julie Roys: Also if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. [00:03:26] Julie Roys: Well, again, joining me is Skye Jethani, a former pastor who now co-hosts the popular podcast, The Holy Post. He also speaks and writes books, including one that we’re offering to listeners this month called What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? So Skye, welcome, and it’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:03:50] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. I’m happy to be here. [00:03:51] Julie Roys: And you may be surprised to know this, but I’ve actually mentioned you numerous times on this podcast. Do  about this? [00:03:58] Skye Jethani: I do not, because I have to confess, I’ve not listened. [00:04:01] Julie Roys: You haven’t listened to our podcast? Well, that’s okay, but I’ve listened to the Holy Post. I’ve actually been on the Holy Post, which has been really fun. I’ve mentioned you because I use this term that you coined called the evangelical industrial complex. And so whenever I do that, I try to give you credit. I say, , this isn’t my term. This is Skye’s term. [00:04:24] Skye Jethani: I don’t need credit, but you’re appreciated. It isn’t like I get a kickback or anything from every time it’s spoken, but. Yeah, I think it was 2012 I wrote an article that I first used that phrase, and it just took off. A lot of people have used it since then. [00:04:37] Julie Roys: Well, it’s a great term, but for those who are listening who haven’t heard it before, what is the evangelical industrial complex? [00:04:45] Skye Jethani: Right. So it’s a riff off of President Eisenhower in his farewell address to the country. It’s on YouTube. I recommend people go watch it. It’s very interesting, but he gave a televised address to the country where he warned about the military industrial complex. Of course, Eisenhower, having been a general and the commander of the forces in Europe during world war two had a lot of credibility when it came to military stuff. [00:05:08] Skye Jethani: And his concern was that there was this permanent arms industry that had been developed after world war two and the military industrial complex, he said, needed a perpetual conflict and warfare to continue its business model. And so I kind of adopted that phrase, but talking about the evangelical industrial complex, which is this financial money-making industry that constantly needs celebrity leaders, celebrity pastors in particular, and big events to perpetuate its business model. [00:05:39] Skye Jethani: And so it tends to elevate leaders who may be quite talented but lack the character or the maturity to handle large audiences or significant influence. But the evangelical industrial complex will prop them up, publish their books, get them on the big stage, build a big platform for them in order to make lots of money off of this person’s talent and reputation. [00:06:06] Skye Jethani: And then we’re shocked when they end up cracking under the pressure or falling into some controversy or their church implodes. And especially when I was working at Christianity Today, And I got around the country and I was seeing kind of behind the curtain in a lot of these places. I was noticing that tendency over and over and over again, where it wasn’t the Godly mature tested people who were given platforms. [00:06:27] Skye Jethani: It was young, attractive, talented people who were given platforms. And so looking at this in different angles, like I just said, this is about making money. This isn’t about really building up the church. And so that’s the evangelical industrial complex. [00:06:42] Julie Roys: And there’s so much that you just said; just in those few paragraphs about the church and some of our assumptions about the church, the fact that we can have an industrial complex, the fact that we have so many financial interests, and we’re going to dive into a lot of that today. [00:07:01] Julie Roys: And I love your book because you take all of these things that are kind of, we’ve just adopted because we swim in this soup, right? And we don’t even know kind of these false ideas about church that we’ve imbibed. But they’re there. And when you begin to contrast them with scripture, you’re like, Oh my word. [00:07:19] Julie Roys: But as I mentioned in the open, you and I, not only know each other professionally, but we go to the same church and we go to a house church, which is a very unconventional form of church. And I know for me and a lot of others within our house church, we’ve come because there was some sort of, I would say many of us are church refugees. [00:07:44] Julie Roys: Something happened at the church that we were at. And I know I’ve talked about this before on this podcast that for us, it was losing trust in our leaders because of a sexual abuse coverup at the church. And so that was very concerning. Your story, I’m guessing, is a bit different, and I realized as we jumped into this, I mean, I know your former church, and I know some stuff that happened there, but I really don’t know your story of why you came to this house church, which is really, in some ways, unconventional form of church, but if you read the New Testament, it sounds awful lot like what they were doing back then. So, what’s your story? How’d you get there? [00:08:24] Skye Jethani: Quite by accident really. I was at the same church for 20 years and for, I don’t know, six, it’s hard to, to find, but I was on staff at the church for quite a few years. And then when I was at CT, I actually split my time between staff at the church and Christianity Today. [00:08:41] Skye Jethani: So these convoluted timeframes, but overall 20 years. And probably, uh, gosh, trying to get dates straight in my head. A few years before we landed at the house church, my wife and I were struggling, honestly, at the church. And I saw, I think partly because of my own ministry background and from my years at CT, where I had been around the country and seen behind the curtain at all kinds of different issues, I had growing concerns about what I saw happening at my own church. [00:09:12] Skye Jethani: And I took some of those concerns to some of the leaders. They did not share my perspective. They thought I was making a mountain out of a molehill. So in those years, my wife and I kind of decided, well, we’re going to take a step back from like deeper involvement because I was, I just saw yellow flags and yet this was our community. This was the people we loved, people we’d known, our kids were all born and raised in this church. So we were committed to the community, but I just decided as previously having been a significant leader there, I was going to take a step back. And those are hard couple of years because I was constantly told, well, should we be somewhere else? [00:09:52] Skye Jethani: I really wanted to be at a church where I felt like I could contribute my full strength and enthusiasm to the work of that community, and it just wasn’t going to happen at our church in that season. Then 2020 happens and the pandemic hits, and it’s like, Oh! God caused the global pandemic. So we don’t have to go to church and feel awkward anymore in this situation. [00:10:30] Skye Jethani: So like everyone else, our church closed. And so everyone moved online or figured out other alternatives. And a few months into the pandemic, Brady Wright reached out to me, who’s also part of our house church and a mutual friend. And he and I and our families have been friends for a long time. And he said that he knew a bunch of families that were all struggling with just feeling isolated. And it was still warm out. And he asked if we’d be open to gathering in someone’s backyard under a tree, social distance for like a fellowship gathering where we would read scripture, pray for one another, and just have a very, very rudimentary kind of worship gathering. [00:10:53] Skye Jethani: So we started doing that in the spring and summer of 2020. And the people came from different churches, but we said we needed fellowship. And a lot of us were connected through Young Life. And then as we got into the winter months, we realized, well, we actually really like doing this with each other and our churches were still closed. [00:11:12] Skye Jethani: And most of us were maybe engaging somewhere online, but not in a meaningful way. And then by 2021, the church that we had been a part of all those years went through that significant crisis that it kind of finally blew up. And I had concerns that this was coming for years and then it did. [00:11:37] Skye Jethani: And so when people found out that my wife and I had been a part of this little under a tree gathering thing. And then in homes, after the weather got cold, some of those refugees started showing up at this little house church. And then there were other churches in our area, like yours, where people were struggling, and they ended up coming. And before you know it, Brady and I are looking at each other going, this was just supposed to be a COVID fellowship, temporary thing under a tree. [00:11:59] Skye Jethani: Um, But now we realize there’s a bigger reason for this, and there are people who need this place to feel connected and heal and a different way of approaching the basic functions of a Christian community. [00:12:21] Skye Jethani: So fast forward, we’re no longer at that church that we were at, obviously, for 20 years, I’m no longer ordained in that denomination. And this house church has just become our community and home. So we didn’t go into it as refugees from a church. We came into it just because of COVID, but it all kind of aligned with a number of years of suspecting things were coming. And then when they did, I think we were just a little ahead of the curve. I saw what could happen and it did. So maybe God was just sparing us from a more acute pain had we stayed more engaged. [00:12:50] Julie Roys: And we were church refugees, and I kind of knew this, but when we lost what was our church home, we spent about two years visiting tons of churches in the area and it just grieved me because I saw the same sort of system at every church that I just didn’t believe in anymore. [00:13:13] Julie Roys: I still believed in the church, I still believed in God, but I didn’t believe in the system anymore. We’re going to dive into that and actually in your introduction, I like how you talk about the church has changed. Our idea of what the church is, it’s just dramatically changed in 50 years. [00:13:33] Julie Roys: And I would a hundred percent affirm that. The church that I’m seeing everywhere right now, that’s called the evangelical church is not the church I grew up in at all, not even close. So talk about that change and what sort of prompted that change. [00:13:51] Skye Jethani: Gosh, I guess it depends on where you want to start the timeline. It’s probably older than 50 years, but I think one of the significant changes that happened at some point in the mid-20th century was sort of the professionalization of pastoral ministry. [00:14:08] Skye Jethani: And I don’t mean professionalization as in professional training. I think that’s very valuable. But here’s what I mean. Throughout most of Christian history, a pastor or minister would spend most of their time during the week out in the community. They met people in their homes, in their farms, in their factories, in the hospitals and the prisons, wherever they were out in the community, engaging people. [00:14:29] Skye Jethani: And then those people would congregate on Sunday. And the minister would lead them in sacraments and in teaching of scripture and all that. But he or she knew their sheep because they were out in the community. And at some point we flipped a switch and we said, if you desire to be ministered to, you now need to come to where the minister works. [00:14:51] Skye Jethani: You need to come into the church office, the church building, and we, the ministers will create a plethora of programs for you and your family to minister to you. And that was done, I think, with very good intentions and there’s an efficiency in that. But I think what it unintentionally did is it caused those of us who are ministers and our pastors to lose touch with the reality of our sheep. [00:15:15] Skye Jethani: We lost touch with what do people's lives actually look like Monday through Saturday? Because the only time we ever saw people, it was on our turf, on our terms, in our programs, and in our building. And once you made that switch from pastoral ministry out in the pastures, to pastoral ministry in the professional setting of the pastor in their building, well then it’s just a matter of how do I scale this factory? How do I make more programs? How do we make bigger worship services? How do I get more people into this system? [00:16:03] Skye Jethani: And then you get the explosion of mega churches and all of that. That was a big wake up call for me, even, after spending a number of years on staff at my church and then beginning to work outside, I realized, oh, I had no idea what the lives of the people in my church were actually like, because I only saw them in my context. I never saw them in their context. So I think that was a big change. And then you just get this massive growth of the institution because you add into this concoction the sacred secular divide. And a lot of people in ministry think that the only work that really matters ultimately is ministry. [00:16:23] Skye Jethani: So if something’s going to matter, it has to happen under the church umbrella, which is how you get like exercise facilities in a church. It’s how you get auto mechanics in a church. It’s how you get all these because it has to be under the church to count and you get these monstrosities ministries and in some communities that’s necessary. [00:16:43] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to completely diminish that, but a lot of places it isn’t. And then you need more and more professional people to manage and run these huge things. And that becomes the system that you’re talking about. You’re like, wow, this becomes really self-serving rather than ministering out into the community. [00:16:59] Skye Jethani: I think that’s one reason is just the simple professionalization of what happened. There’s a lot of other pieces of this we can unpack, but I think that one doesn’t get enough attention. [00:17:07] Julie Roys:  Yeah. And the church has become a corporation. It’s not  the family that a lot of us knew the church has. And I do think there were good intentions with things. Like I remember the first time we went to Willow Creek, which is the big mega church in the Chicago area, much less big now that everything’s happened with Bill Hybels But I remember going and the thing that struck me, because when I grew up in this little church, it was a great family, really great family, but nobody became a Christian there. Right? Like nobody came to the church and became a Christian. And I saw Willow Creek putting on these amazing shows on Sunday morning, very attractional model. And I remember inviting my boss. I was doing this little sales job in between college and graduate school. And I invited my boss, and my boss became a believer. [00:17:59] Julie Roys:  And then we started doing Bible studies and we used to fill up two rows of people on midweek. Like we’d have a sales meeting and then we go to Willow. And literally there were dozens of people became believers through that. So I mean that at first I was just like, this is amazing. It’s like the para-church church. I saw all of these para church type outreach ministries, that model coming into the church. But then some really unintended consequences we really weren’t thinking about it necessarily biblically, we were thinking about it pragmatically; how do we reach people? [00:18:43] Julie Roys: And that’s kind of how we got there, but really, what is the church, right? I mean, that’s what your book is getting to. What is the church? And I think you rightly say a lot of people think of it as an event, as a building, as an organization. So biblically, let’s go back down to our roots, right? And what is the church? [00:19:02] Skye Jethani: The simplest answer is it’s a community of women and men and children who have been redeemed by Jesus and are living in communion with him and one another. That’s it. And that obviously can take different forms and structures and different cultures and times, but that’s it. I think your observation that megachurch function very much like a parachurch outreach kind of ministry, I think it’s accurate. And I’ve been a part of a number, especially as a college student, a number of parachurch organizations like Campus Crusade CRU now, InterVarsity, Navigators, and at least in my time connected to some of those things. They’re very careful not to call themselves a church because they understand that we may be a ministry, we may do outreach and Bible studies and other things, but we are not a church. [00:20:05] Skye Jethani: But the funny part is when you go to some churches that more or less function like parachurch ministries. they embrace the name church. And I wrote a piece many years ago for Leadership Journal, where I was arguing that these very large churches shouldn’t really be called churches. And I started calling them VLMs, which is a new one. It’s a very large ministry. And I tried to come up with a name that wasn’t disparaging because they are doing ministry. They are reaching people like your colleagues, like they’re doing good work, but there’s something chafed on me about calling it a church when the historic definition and functions of a church community were really not present. But they were preaching the gospel. They were teaching scripture. They were engaging non-believers, all that great. But the functioning of a church in many of these places was not actually happening. [00:20:44] Skye Jethani: Para church organizations recognize that about themselves and stayed away from the label of church, but these mega churches and other ministries embrace the church name. All the while they weren’t really functioning as churches. [00:20:56] Julie Roys: And I think the pastor wasn’t functioning as a pastor. I mean, we have pastors who are basically preachers, but they’re not pastors. They’re not shepherds. [00:21:04] Skye Jethani: Right. Exactly. Yeah. [00:21:06] Julie Roys: You wrote one of the chapters is on, whose church is it really? And it reminded me of an experience I had last fall. So I was doing some investigating on a church where Albert Tate was the pastor. It’s in Monrovia, California, and he had admitted that he had an inappropriate texting relationship, but then his staff started complaining about bullying, about spiritual abuse. [00:21:33] Julie Roys: They found out that they really didn’t have any say. They didn’t own the church the way the bylaws were written. Albert, and a few of his key guys that he put on his board owned the church. I remember at this very contentious town hall meeting that I went to where they were basically the people were demanding their church back, and they were talking about Albert going on this sabbatical, and he came back really quickly. I forget how it’s several weeks. And then he said, and I’m just going to quote, he’s like, I’m not sure if a month would have made any difference, like saying if I had stayed on my break for a month longer. And unfortunately, I still feel like this is my church. And the place erupted. I mean, people were saying it’s our church, it’s our church. [00:22:25] Julie Roys: And then somebody was saying, no, it’s God’s church. But the way that we think about our church, I mean, there, it was really coming to a head, and it really was a matter of who owns this church? And we’ve got legal ownership, and then we’ve got spiritual ownership. So speak to that, because I think we have really messed this one up. [00:22:46] Skye Jethani: Yeah, and there’s a lot of pieces that intersect with this, because there’s different polities, there’s different church structures and governance structures, depending on your denomination and theology and all of that, it gets complicated. There’s some denominations in which they might have congregational polity, but the denomination owns the building, and it goes on and on like in the denomination I was a part of they were congregational in their polity, but the licensing and ordination of clergy was handled by the denomination. So there was some oversight. And one of the things, I used to have stronger opinions, I guess, about these matters, but as I’ve gotten around and had my own experience and just perhaps mellowed a bit with age, I’ve realized I have not yet found a church structure that cannot be abused. [00:23:33] Skye Jethani: They all have weaknesses, and they all have strengths. Some I think are better than others, but none’s immune. So if someone’s looking for a silver bullet of how do we structure these things to avoid abuse? Good luck. The best you can do is try to mitigate against it in your culture and environment by choosing certain models versus others, but they can all be abused. [00:23:56] Skye Jethani: But what you’re getting at in the story that you mentioned, and I’ve seen this up close as well, especially within evangelicalism, so much of our tradition is rooted in charismatic personalities and lowercase C charismatic personalities so that we tend to associate a church with its visible leader, the person in the pulpit. [00:24:22] Skye Jethani: I remember Outreach magazine, I think it was Outreach magazine years ago, used to do an issue every year on like the top hundred churches in the country or something like that. And they measure just based on size, based on attendance. And it was like a centerfold, a fold out. big thing and they’d list all these churches in this chart And there was the name of the church and then there was just a headshot of the senior pastor That was the visual representation of that church [00:25:02] Skye Jethani: So it is a structural problem, but it’s also a people problem We do that we do that because we tend to pick a church based on do I like the preacher? If that’s the criteria you have for picking your church, you’re reinforcing that same idea. And what really grieved me was when I realized, despite the rhetoric, despite the theology, despite all the words about we’re a body and it’s blah, blah, blah. When people in leadership, John Ortberg used to say that everyone has their mission, and then there’s the shadow mission. [00:25:28] Skye Jethani: There’s what you say your mission is, and then there’s what your mission really is. And what I discovered in some of these places is, you might say your mission is the health of the church, or it’s the growth of the church, or it’s the service of the community, whatever it might be, glorifying God. The shadow mission in an awful lot of these places is to protect the pastor and to maintain the pastor’s status and reputation. [00:25:50] Skye Jethani: And that for me to speak about the system being broken is when I lost trust and hope. Where it ceased to be about what’s best for the body, and it became what’s best for the figurehead who represents the body, not Jesus, but the pastor. Again, there’s a bazillion stories of how this happens. [00:26:15] Skye Jethani: I don’t want to point the finger just at the system because we are complicit in creating that system. Because I think for a lot of us, we get a lot of satisfaction after saying that’s my pastor. That’s my leader. Look how great my guy is. Look how many books he’s published, look how popular his radio show is. And I’m a part of that. So there’s something we get from that, which props them up. [00:26:36] Skye Jethani: And somewhere else I wrote about it as being like the relationship between an animal and a zookeeper. They both benefit. The animal gets fed in a safe place to live. And the zookeeper gets the satisfaction of. , being in charge of all these animals. And if you’re content with that model, we’re going to continue to have this dynamic where the leaders are synonymous with the church. And then the church does everything it can to prop up and protect its leader, and it’s really unhealthy for everybody involved. [00:26:57] Julie Roys: That’s interesting. And it is true that it’s comfortable for us because when we go to a church like that, everything’s provided for us, and we don’t really have to bring anything to the table. And that’s been one of the challenges with our house church, hasn’t it? We're like, nobody signed up to facilitate this week. Nobody signed up for worship leading. And it’s like, okay, yeah, we’re going to have to bring a little more to the table if we’re going to keep meeting. Again, biblically speaking, there’s commands about when you meet together, you should bring a psalm, you should bring a word of encouragement, you should bring, I mean, all of these things. [00:27:34] Julie Roys: We’ve gotten into a very consumeristic way of looking at church and of approaching it. And it’s on us. You’re right. You’re a hundred percent right. It is on us. And I think we don’t think of the church. as God’s church. But if we do think of the church as God’s church, then I think it also changes our expectations of who should be in that church. [00:27:59] Julie Roys: You mentioned how a lot of churches, when they plant a church, they’ll talk about their target audience, for example, which implies you can either be in their target or not be in their target, right? So, if you’re not in their target, then do you count? I mean, do you matter? A lot of assumptions there. But when we think about church and we think about who’s coming, how should we perceive that? [00:28:29] Skye Jethani: Yeah, I think that the breakdown here is the way our culture defines hospitality. Again, it’s become an industry; there’s the hospitality industry in the modern world. And so what we usually mean by hospitality, and this trickles down even to our homes, like when we think about do you have a hospitable home? You think, well, if I’m going to have guests, I’m going to find out what do they like? What do they want? I’m going to accommodate to their needs. I’m going to make sure that they're vegan or whatever it is. And we’re going to customize our home to fit the people who are coming. The hospitality industry has taught us, whether it’s airlines or hotels or resorts or whatever, find out who you’re marketing your resort to, and then give them what they want. Customer is king. And megachurches and the seeker movement came along, and they adopted that same approach. Well, we’re going to go after unchurched Harry and Mary, famously was Willow Creek’s thing. And they had this middle-class, middle-aged people, and they tailored a church around what they wanted. [00:29:30] Skye Jethani: That’s very different from the ancient world’s understanding of hospitality. Paul commands us to be hospitable to one another, and so does Peter, and it’s a very ancient idea going back to Abraham being hospitable to the strangers who are angels who came to his home. [00:29:46] Skye Jethani: In the ancient Near East, hospitality was not about catering or changing your home or community to accommodate your guests. It was instead, welcoming guests into the normalcy and flow of your home as it is; it’s been authentically yourself but welcoming those guests into it. [00:30:15] Skye Jethani: So, I’ll give you one example. When I was in seminary, some classmates of mine did an experiment where they took 2 television monitors to Northwestern University, right? This. secular university in Evanston, the north side of Chicago. Julie Roys: Where I got my graduate degree. [00:30:36] Skye Jethani:  Right. One monitor they showed a Catholic mass, and the other monitor they showed a very contemporary mega church worship gathering. And they asked students as they came by, hey, if you were ever to go to church, which one of these would you go to? And this would have been probably 1998-99 in that timeframe. The overwhelming response of the students was the Catholic mass. And then they asked them, why is that? And they said, well, that looks like a rock concert. I can get that anywhere, but that looks sacred. That looks holy. [00:30:54] Skye Jethani: And what they were getting at was, the mega churches said, we’re going to accommodate to the culture and give people what they want. But increasingly with my generation, and I think the younger ones, it smacks of pandering. It smacks of, well, you’re changing who you really are in order to be who you think I want you to be. [00:31:13] Skye Jethani: Whereas the Catholic mass, a lot of these students was like, well, they’re being authentic to who they are. That’s Christianity. They’re not trying to. I mean, goodness, the Catholics just started doing the mass in English not that long ago. They were very slow to accommodate, but that was seen as authentic. [00:31:28] Skye Jethani: So I think that the challenge for us today is not how do you change the church to be what the culture wants you to be? It’s how do you be authentically Christian in your church community? But how do you make it As accessible as possible to the people who might come in? [00:31:49] Skye Jethani: So in our case, like when we gather, we take communion every Sunday when we gather. I know plenty of seeker churches that would say, you don’t do that because it’s off putting to non-believers who don’t understand it. I would hope that if someone came into our community, and I’ve seen churches that do this really well, who take communion regularly, they explain what this is, what it means, why we do it, how to do it, the significance of it and invite people to participate or not, depending on their theology [00:32:13] Skye Jethani: . That’s being hospitable. It’s not changing who you are to accommodate people’s expectations. It’s welcoming them into who you are and to the normal flow of your family and household. And I think that’s a better approach and a more faithful approach than polling the community and finding out what they want. [00:32:29] Julie Roys: Absolutely. And I love that we do communion every week. I think a lot of churches have forsaken this. In fact, you talk about the, what is it, The coffee bar versus the Lord’s table? Like in a lot of these churches, the coffee bar has become more appealing than the Lord’s table to these churches. Again, because I think their mentality is we’re doing church, and this is where I feel like evangelism, which is such an important thing, but it’s almost superseded worship. [00:33:04] Julie Roys: Like, we forget why we come together. We don’t come together to reach the seeker. Not that God, obviously Jesus cared. He left the 99 to get the one. But we come together to worship God; that’s the primary. And so the table, describe, beyond what you’ve talked about, but theologically, why is the table so, and by the way, our RESTORE conferences, every single one, we always end with communion, which I’ve had people come up to me and say, Oh, you shouldn’t do like anything that might trigger people because they were hurt in the church and communion, that's something that’s very churchy. [00:33:46] Julie Roys: And I’m like, we have to redeem these symbols. We can’t throw them out because these symbols are there. God gave them to us because our souls need them. And we need to have this communion with one another and with Christ. I know this is a conviction of yours. It’s very deeply held, but why is the table like a non-negotiable for us as believers when we meet? [00:34:13] Skye Jethani: Let me give you two reasons, although there are more. One, is I think it is the practiced embodiment of the gospel. It is not just the verbal proclamation of the gospel, which is obviously valuable, but it’s the embodiment of the gospel. And in the sense that it’s not just a memorial to Jesus' death, which certainly it is that; my broken body, my shed blood, but in sort of an Ephesians 2 kind of way. [00:34:54] Skye Jethani: There Paul talks about how on the cross God has reconciled us to one another. He’s talking about Jew and Gentiles there. He’s broken down the wall of hostility and he has reconciled us to one another and made us one new person. And then together reconciled us to God through the cross. So It’s not just when I sit alone and take a little juice and a little bread, and I kind of think about the cross and my community with God, it’s when I am sitting side by side or standing side by side with my sisters and brothers, realizing I’m one with them because of the cross, and he has reconciled us to one another, people, maybe who I share something in common with, in an earthly way, but some whom I don’t. [00:35:31] Skye Jethani: And so when we don’t practice communion regularly, I think we can easily fall into the trap of losing the horizontal dimension of the gospel. And we make it simply vertical. It’s just me and God. And we forget, no, it’s the reconciliation between brothers and sisters happens first, Paul says, and then we’re reconciled to God, the father of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. [00:35:56] Skye Jethani: If you’re going to make an offering at the altar, and there, remember your brother has something against you, leave the offering, go be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift to God. He always puts the horizontal reconciliation ahead of the vertical, and we have so lost sight of that. And we don’t think that’s essential to our gospel, but it is. [00:36:11] Skye Jethani: So the table is critically important because it is the embodiment of that full gospel, the horizontal and the vertical. And when we don’t practice that, we get really warped. And it just leads to terrible things in the church. Then the other reason, the second reason, and this gets a little bit more into that coffee bar versus communion table thing is, virtually everything in our society is designed to make us narcissistic consumers. [00:36:41] Skye Jethani: It’s all about me. It’s what I want. And when I go to a coffee bar, I don’t drink coffee. I drink tea, but when I go to a Starbucks or whatever, like there’s infinite options and I pick what I want and I’m the one in charge and I order it and I get it. And a lot of churches have that in their foyer or communion area or common area, whatever might be fine. [00:36:58] Skye Jethani: I’m not against coffee in church, but the table I’m no longer in charge. It’s Christ’s table. It’s not my table. And even if I’m officiating and I’m a pastor at the table, it’s still not my table. It’s Christ’s table. He welcomes us there. This is his body. This is his blood. This is about his kingdom and his family. [00:37:18] Skye Jethani: And it’s a reminder that I am not in charge, and I belong to something other than myself. And so those two realities of the gospel, I think are antidotes to what we get bombarded with in our culture of the privatization of our faith. It’s just me and God and the hyper narcissism of it’s what I want that matters, not what God wants. [00:37:41] Skye Jethani: For me, the practice of communion inoculates me to a degree against all of that cultural garbage and realigns me to the gospel of Christ again. So to not practice it regularly, I think is to lose one of the greatest graces that Christ has given his church. And especially in our context, we need to do that. [00:38:03] Julie Roys: I love about the table too, especially this is probably why I absolutely love liturgical worship, which is something I loved about our previous church because it was Anglican and I love the liturgy, but I love the table because it reminds us of what’s coming, like the wedding feast that we’re looking forward to. [00:38:27] Julie Roys: I think way too often especially in evangelicalism, it’s like our goal is to get people saved and then it stops. Like we forget that ?we’re saved to be part of this community that’s being redeemed and has this glorious thing that we’re anticipating. And I think most Christians forget we’re anticipating something. [00:38:48] Julie Roys: You just get the sense like, Oh, you got saved. You’ve arrived. And then, well,  you should become discipled; that’s important because as you point out, we haven’t really defined what disciple is but that’s important, but we forget. Man, we are just passing through. We’ve got this glorious, glorious feast that we’re awaiting, and it is going to be a family and it’s going to be a family affair where everyone’s gathered. [00:39:15] Julie Roys: I love that part of it. And I love that it takes us out, like you’re saying, out of our present context and reminds us who we are and where we’re going. So love that part of it. And you touched on this when you said, You were hinting at the transactional nature that we come to church with, and I hear this all the time. I’ve probably said it myself. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of this. But we look at church and we say, and if we go and we don’t feel like we were especially inspired or something, we’ll say, I didn’t get anything out of that. [00:39:54] Skye Jethani: Mm-Hmm. . [00:39:54] Julie Roys: Talk about why that’s really not the way we should be approaching church. [00:39:59] Skye Jethani: Oh, gosh, Julie, I wrote my very first book on this whole thing, which no one read. It’s called The Divine Commodity and it’s all about consumerism and the church. With a weird thread of Vincent van Gogh all the way through the book, which is why no one read it. [00:40:16] Julie Roys: That sounds very interesting though. In a dark sort of way. [00:40:19] Skye Jethani: We live and move and have our being in a consumer culture. Everything is measured by its value to me. It’s interesting. Like, there’s an economist who argues that America really transitioned into a truly consumer economy in the 1950s. And it’s the 1950s where you begin to see a massive spike in divorce rates. [00:40:43] Skye Jethani: Now, there’s a lot of factors into that. It’s not just economics, but I think it’s a factor. Because what Consumerism tells us is that the world exists to satisfy my desires. And when something doesn’t satisfy my desire, I’m justified in changing it, whether it’s a product from a shelf or a spouse that I said I was committed to. [00:41:03] Skye Jethani: So we measure everything that way. Most of us don’t even think twice about it. Of course, that’s the right way to live. Of course, that’s what the world is all about. And so we come into our church communities or even our relationship with Christ and we go, well, what have you done for me lately? And is this beneficial to me? And am I getting something from it? We don’t challenge that ethic in most of our churches. We never point it out, we never go, Hey, this might be the way economics works in our society, but it’s not the way the most important things work. This isn’t the way we should think about our children. [00:41:34] Skye Jethani: This isn’t the way we should think about our spouses. And this is not the way we should be thinking about God. And Certainly not the way to think about his church, but we do. And in a weird way, the first amendment has reinforced that idea. We have no established church in America and I’m grateful for that, but it also means there’s a free market of religion in the United States and the religious institutions that are out there are all competing for part of the market. They’re competing for customers. And in that setting, the customer’s King, you give them what you want. So it ends up reinforcing this mindset over and over and over again. I can’t just shake my fist at the culture and go big, bad consumerism. [00:42:12] Skye Jethani: But what I can shake my fist at a little bit are churches and ministers that aren’t speaking about this dynamic and helping people be formed out of it into the values of the kingdom of God. And instead we either stay silent about it or flat out reinforce it and advance it in a weird way. So yeah, things like communion, like commitment, like relationship, like service are antidotes to some of that mindset. [00:42:38] Skye Jethani: But it’s hard. And I find myself in that posture all the time as well. You can’t escape it. It’s just part of who we are as 21st century modern people. But that’s where it’s on the shoulders of church leaders and institutions to help form us and give us a vision of a different way that very few are doing. [00:42:58] Julie Roys: Similar to that is I think this idea that when we come to church, we do so, and we’ve heard churches build themselves this way. We come and experience God, and worship has become, and it’s interesting to me because worship was so huge in my development as a Christian. As I remember being in high school and I got discipled by these, Oral Roberts/Jesus People like wacky charismatics who were druggies maybe 10 years prior to meeting me. [00:43:32] Julie Roys: But they were so on fire for the Lord, and we would get together, and we would pray and worship and literally we’d be there for 3 hours, and it would seem like 10 minutes. It was just an amazing. I didn’t realize up until that point that you could have that kind of intimacy with God and that kind of communion with him. [00:43:51] Julie Roys: So worship was huge to me in my experience of God. What’s been challenging now. And even I look back, we were in a Vineyard church for a long time, and I used to love to invite people and I would see them come into the worship and they just start crying and they don’t even know why they’re crying, right? [00:44:08] Julie Roys: They’re just crying because they’re moved. But now I’m seeing so many of these worship experiences that are, they’re amazing emotional experiences and it’s making me check; like I have a check now because I see these kids raised in their hands and they’re praising the Lord. [00:44:32] Julie Roys: And then the rest of what they’re doing throughout the week has nothing to do with the Lord has nothing to do with worshiping the Lord. I see these ministries that are built on worship, like Hillsong and Bethel. And now we’re seeing just such horrible manipulation and corruption and abuse within so many of these churches. [00:44:52] Julie Roys: And so the whole experiencing God thing,  it’s hard to even parse out, like, is the music affecting me? I think if you try to parse that out, then you’re kind of killing the experience itself, right? So, you destroy it. [00:45:16] Julie Roys: But I think this idea that we have to go to church to experience God. has been baked into evangelicalism where it’s at right now. So address that and why we need to really change our focus when it comes to worship. [00:45:28] Skye Jethani: You and I were very different high school students. [00:45:31] Julie Roys: We were. You were here, I was here, right? [00:45:35] Skye Jethani: Yeah. So I was the worst kid in the youth group in high school because I was such a skeptic. I used to get dragged to these big worship events in Chicago for high schoolers in the early 90s. And I just thought these are the most manipulative and emotionally charged. I just didn’t buy it. I never bought it. And that’s just, that was my own baggage and problem. But let me say, I think the problem is not necessarily these gatherings. [00:46:02] Skye Jethani: I think they can be beautiful in many, and I’ve been a part of some that are just amazingly gorgeous times of communion with God. The problem is not the gatherings. I think the real problem is what we expect to get from them. And here’s the metaphor that I’ve written about elsewhere that I find helpful. [00:46:23] Skye Jethani: In 2nd Corinthians chapter 3, Paul references Moses on the mountaintop of Sinai when he meets with the Lord. And if you remember the story from Exodus 34, when Moses came down the mountain to meet with the people again, they all freaked out because his face was glowing, right? The radiance of God was shown on his face. [00:46:44] Skye Jethani: And in Exodus, it says that Moses put a veil over his face. So that people wouldn’t freak out anymore. Well, Paul, when he’s referencing this in 2 Corinthians 3, adds a little bit of rabbinical tradition into the story that’s not actually in Exodus, but Paul was familiar with. And he said, no, the real reason that Moses put a veil over his face is because he didn’t want the people to see that the glory was fading away and that is was only temporary. [00:47:09] Skye Jethani: And so when you piece these things together, you get a sense of what was really going on here is every time Moses would go up the mountain and meet with the Lord, he would take the veil off and he’d kind of get recharged another zap of God’s radiance. [00:47:20] Skye Jethani: And he’d come down and everyone would see, Oh, he’s been with the Lord. He’s glowing. And then he put the veil over cause it fades away. And I think that’s a little bit what we’ve gotten caught up into, is an external mountaintop kind of communion with God. Moses' experience on the mountain was real. It was genuine. It was good. It was full of God’s presence [00:47:38] Skye Jethani:. The problem that Paul’s pointing out is it always faded. It was temporary. And so you have to go back over and over and over again. And he contrasts that with the new covenant in Christ, which he said is not. about an external glory. It’s about his spirit within us, transforming us from one degree of glory to the next with ever increasing glory. So we can take the veil away. [00:47:59] Skye Jethani: And this is the core problem. I think in an awful lot of consumeristic American evangelical Christianity is essentially what we have done is rejected the new covenant in Christ in favor of the old covenant in Moses. And the reason is if we really buy the new covenant in Christ, You don’t need a 50-million-dollar mountaintop to encounter God, and you don’t need a dynamic preacher to encounter God, and you don’t need a huge worship band o genuinely encounter God. What do you need? You need to cultivate a deep abiding presence with his spirit, the kind that Jesus talks about in John 15. Abide in me and I will abide in you, just as a branch abides in its vine and bears fruit. That’s New Testament spirituality [00:48:53] Skye Jethani: But if you want a big ministry, and if you want thousands or even millions of people buying your albums and coming to your church and doing anything, then you need old testament spirituality. You need to convince people that the only place that they’re really going to have an experience of  God is on the mountain that you’ve built and that you hold the toll road to accessing. That’s old testament spirituality and it’s really lucrative .But it’s not what we’re called to in Jesus. [00:49:13] Skye Jethani: So that’s what worries me is we’re creating kind of worship junkies where they need another hit and the glory fades and they’re like, Oh, my life, I felt really transformed after going to that big event, that big conference, that big whatever. But yeah, a week later, the glory fades and you’re back to the person you always were. [00:49:29] Skye Jethani: And then you go, I guess I need to go again, or I need a bigger thing or a better church or a better speaker. Whatever. And all the while we’re ignoring what we’re called to, which is who’s teaching me how to really commune with Jesus? Who’s teaching me how to pray? Who’s teaching me how to confess my sins? Who’s teaching me how to really live in step with the spirit day in and day out so that I might truly be transformed from one degree of glory to the next? [00:49:51] Skye Jethani: Very few of our mega ministry settings are designed to do that kind of work. They’re designed to give us a show and make us feel great. And to be fair, again, sometimes those are genuine encounters with God, just like Moses was, but it always fades. That’s the problem. [00:50:09] Julie Roys: I’m thinking back to when I was at Vineyard and there was a saying that John Wimber had that I absolutely loved. He would say pretty much everything else in our experience with God is something that he does for us. Worship is the one thing that we do to him, that we give back to him. And I think rightly understood, it comes from that communion with God that you have, that then when you have the chance to verbally express that, it's very much like in a marriage relationship. [00:50:44] Julie Roys: When you have that opportunity to physically express that love to your spouse, it’s extraordinarily meaningful because why? you already have that love that you experienced one for another. And so then that Physical expression becomes so meaningful But if it were just the physical expression without the love, I think that’s where a lot of people are at really in the way that they’re relating to God, [00:51:07] Skye Jethani: Right. Yeah, if we developed a genuine communion with God throughout the week, and then we gather with our sisters and brothers on the weekend and express that, that’s wonderful. I think too many of us again, schooled as consumers don’t have that communion all week long. And then we show up on Sunday going, light me up, make me feel good, give me that charge so that I can go into my week and feel encouraged or blessed or whatever it is I’m looking for. That’s not worship [00:51:34] Julie Roys: We don’t want to disciple people on how to maintain that in their private life because then they don’t need us. And yeah, so good. Well, there’s so much more we could talk about. Before I let you go talk just briefly about leadership and you’ve touched on it somewhat, about the celebrity pastors. You also used a term that’s become somewhat of a buzzword within the church is something called servant leadership. [00:52:05] Julie Roys: I have a feeling that’s much more about the upfront and not like the shadow mission shows whether that servant leadership is actually a thing. But talk about that leader and the approach that leader should have. How a leader should serve within a body, and why maybe we should be suspicious of those who come along and say, they’re visionary leaders and they’re going to impart their vision to us, for the church. And I know I just gave you a big one, didn’t I? [00:52:37] Skye Jethani: It is a big one. And there’s so many landmines in this. I generally don’t like using the language of servant leader because especially again, in American evangelical culture, the assumptions behind it are misunderstood. So let me unpack that a little bit. [00:52:57] Skye Jethani: Usually, when we think of servant leader, we think of a person with authority or power who nonetheless does humble acts of service, right? So it’s the pastor who’s out there shoveling the snow o ,the church leader, who’s still taking out the garbage and you go, gee, look at,  pastor Steve, isn’t he humble? And he’s a servant leader and he’s doing that thing. Just like Jesus washed the disciples feet. In my view it’s great. I’m glad a pastor does that. I certainly wouldn’t want to disparage it, but I don’t think that’s really what servant leadership means. In John 13, that scene where Jesus washes the disciples feet, what he’s really doing there is not only humiliating himself, he’s humiliating his disciples. They had been arguing about who’s the greatest. And then Jesus strips naked and starts washing their feet, taking this grotesquely humiliating role. And he gets to Peter and Peter’s like, there’s no way you’re washing my feet. And he says, if you don’t let me wash your feet, you can have no place with me. [00:54:03] Skye Jethani: Which is like, wow, that’s a pretty strong statement. What’s going on there? In that culture the relationship between a rabbi and a disciple was well established, and a disciple’s identity was completely defined by who their rabbi was. So when Peter and John and James and the others, when they left their fishing boats and their toll booths and all the other things they were doing to become a follower of Rabbi Jesus, Peter especially was thinking, this is a pretty good deal, because I’m leaving a meager fishing business to become the disciple of the most powerful guy I’ve ever seen, who’s probably going to take over the world. [00:54:41] Skye Jethani: And that’s why, am I going to get to sit at your right on your left? Where am I going to get, like, this was a great deal. Cause my rabbi is like bigger than Moses. And then he sees his rabbi do the most humiliating and embarrassing task imaginable. And so what Jesus is saying to Peter is, If you think this is humiliating to me, it’s even more humiliating for you, Peter, because I’m your rabbi, which means you’re even lower than me. [00:55:05] Skye Jethani: And then at the end of the whole scene, he says, I, your teacher and rabbi have done this. You should do likewise. I think the message he’s really saying there is stop caring what others think about you. And love in a self-sacrificial way, take up your cross, die to yourself and follow me. [00:55:37] Skye Jethani: So when I then look at what does that mean in 21st century American church world, nobody is going to look at a pastor shoveling snow or taking out garbage and go, Oh my gosh, what a loser. Most church worlds go, Oh, that’s great. He’s doing something noble and kind and helping out and everything. No one’s going to think he’s a humiliated nothing because of that. So what I’m looking for is a pastor who has given up on their own reputation, who’s doesn’t care how many followers they have on Twitter, who’s not worried about, are they going to have a bestselling book? [00:56:00] Skye Jethani: Isn’t counting how many people showed up every Sunday because that’s a stroke to their ego. It’s where they have truly died to themselves. They know who they are and where they’re going, like Jesus did at the beginning of John 13. They know they belong to God, and they know they’ve been called by him, and they’re set free then to love sacrificially, without caring about their own reputation and ego. So that's, I think, a better definition of a servant leader, the person whose ego is not driving their ministry. That’s hard to spot without real relational connection and knowing somebody well. [00:56:44] Skye Jethani:  I’m all for that kind of serpent leader and it’s rare. I’ve known men and women like that. Sometimes they have an ecclesiastical title. Sometimes they don’t. But they are the salt and light in the church today. And I pray that God will bring us more of them because we desperately need them in the American church. [00:57:02] Julie Roys: I love that. That’s so good, Skye. Thank you. Well, we have to wrap this because I’ve got my grandson’s first soccer game coming up and I’ve got to boot out of here to go see that. [00:57:15] Skye Jethani: I actually have a soccer game tonight too for my high school daughter. So I’ve got to do that too. [00:57:19] Julie Roys: But this has been really good and really rich. I so appreciate this book that you’ve written. Like we said, we’re offering that to anybody who gives a gift to The Roy’s Report this month. Just really grateful for you, Skye. And I think people, when they hear this, they’re like, wow, that guy’s in your church. And we have like so many people who are deep thinkers like this in our church. And it’s been an incredible gift. And it’s been an incredible thing to iron sharpening iron, which we’ve had that opportunity. So just feel blessed to have you as my brother and just appreciate this time we spent. [00:57:57] Skye Jethani: And thankful for all the good work you and your team at The Roy’s Report are doing in helping people navigate a really difficult season in the church and hopefully find healing and deeper communion with God and one another. It’s valuable, valuable work. I’m grateful to have a small little role in this podcast now as a part of it. [00:58:15] Julie Roys: And you’re going to have to watch this podcast now. It’ll be your first. [00:58:18] Skye Jethani: Yes, I probably will. [00:58:20] Julie Roys: Well, blessings to you. And thanks so much. [00:58:22] Skye Jethani: Thanks, Julie. [00:58:23] Julie Roys: And thanks so much for listening to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a reminder, we’re giving away Skye’s book, What If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? to anyone who gives a gift of 25 or more to The Roy’s Report this month. As I often say, we don’t have advertisers or big donors at The Roy’s Report. We simply have you. The people who care about reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’re passionate about our mission, please go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATED. Also, just a q

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/XKwF1N--a00For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as lay leaders at Lakepointe Church, a megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area pastored by Josh Howerton. But as concerns about Howerton grew, Patrick and Mary found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now, they're dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called “church refugees” feel. In this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Mary DeMuth joins host Julie Roys to talk about navigating church bewilderment. This is a condition more and more Christians are experiencing today, as scandal and corruption are increasingly seeping into the church. And if you caught the previous TRR podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lakepointe Church. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How much is okay to say, and what is gossip? How do you find another church home when you're dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? These are crucial questions, which Mary—an internationally known author and a repeat speaker at our Restore Conference—admits she is wrestling with. And, as is so characteristic of Mary, she engages these questions with grace, wisdom, and a passion for truth and justice. Sadly, many churches have created a culture where it's not okay to talk about leaving a toxic church. But as Mary explains in this podcast, the church won't get better until we talk about it. Believers must begin to evaluate and process the toxicity in churches—and how we can truly become the Body of Christ. Mary has recently developed a Church Hurt Checklist to help people understand their situation and begin to process and articulate it. Download it free at marydemuth.com/churchhurt Guests Mary DeMuth Mary DeMuth is an international speaker, podcaster, and author of over 40 books, fiction and nonfiction, including The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible and We Too: How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis. Mary lives in Texas with her husband of 30+ years and is mom to three adult children. Learn more at MaryDeMuth.com. Show Transcript Julie Roys: For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as leaders at a megachurch in the Dallas Fort Worth area. But as concerns about the current pastor grew, they found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now they’re dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called church refugees feel. Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today, Mary DeMuth joins me to talk about navigating church bewilderment. Sadly, this is an issue many Christians are dealing with, as abuse, scandal, and corruption increasingly seem to be seeping into the church. Julie Roys: And if you caught our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lake Point Church in the Dallas Fort Worth area, where Josh Howerton is Pastor. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. And if you missed our prior podcast, it was a real eye-opener and I encourage you to go back and listen to that. Julie Roys: Today’s podcast is a sequel to my podcast with Amanda, but rather than exposing the issues at Lake Point today, Mary is going to be discussing the aftermath of leaving. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How do you know how much is okay to say? And what is gossip? And how do you find another church home when you’re dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? Julie Roys: These are crucial questions and ones that I know many of you are dealing with today. And so I’m so looking forward to diving into this topic with Mary DeMuth. But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. Julie Roys: And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable, rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and quality. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys: Again, joining me is Christian author and podcaster, Mary DeMuth, and many of Mary from her excellent books like We Too: Discussing the Sexual Abuse Crisis in the Church, and also her memoir, Thin Places. Mary also was a guest speaker at our last Restore Conference in 2022, and she’ll be speaking again at our Restore Conference in Phoenix in February in 2025. So we’re super looking forward to that. Julie Roys: But she joins me now to talk about something that’s been a very painful process for both her and Patrick, and that is leaving her church of 23 years, Lake Point Church there in the Dallas Fort Worth area. So Mary, Thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know has been a really difficult journey. Mary DeMuth: Thanks. I certainly prayed about this conversation and what I’ve noticed in this space is that a lot of people in the middle of it. are not articulating how they’re feeling because there’s this general pressure from churches that you leave that you aren’t supposed to say anything. And I think there’s a difference between, and we’ll talk about this, I’m sure, throughout this episode, but there’s a difference between leaving quietly and running around gossiping about things. Certainly, those are two different things. Mary DeMuth: But I think what we’ve done is we’ve created a culture of silence; you can’t talk about it and literally we won’t get better unless we do talk about it. So that’s one reason why I am having this conversation today, because this is not a completed story. This is a messy story. I’m in the middle of it. Mary DeMuth: I am heartbroken, and I don’t have all the answers. But I wanted to give word to those of you that may be in that same space, that may be hurting and don’t have words to say about it. And maybe I can articulate some of those things for you. Julie Roys: And I so appreciate that. I find that people often are willing to talk about experiences years after the fact, when they’ve worked it all out and they can tie it all up in a neat bow and we can all go, Oh, that’s so nice. And here’s three ways that you can apply this message. But I knew you were going through a really painful thing that it was messy. You’ve been tweeting about it, or I should say posting on X. Julie Roys: You’ve been very open and honest with your pain. And I really appreciate that. And I love the topic. You actually gave me the title for this, about navigating church bewilderment. And I love that word bewilderment because I feel like it really captures the confusion, the real disillusionment, and then the grief and the pain. Julie Roys: All of these things bound up in one. And so we’re going to get to all that and unpack all of that. But I think to understand the depth of it for you and for Patrick, first I have to understand how deeply vested you were in this church. So talk about what this church has meant to you over more than two decades and the roles that you played in it and the community that you had. Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we’ve been there for 23 years, and we immediately started serving the moment we landed there. And we also were the first non-IMB, it was an SBC church at the time, and we were the first non-IMB missionaries to be sent out from Lake Point. Julie Roys: Define IMB for those who . Mary DeMuth: Yes. International mission board. So typically SBC churches send, they don’t really send their own missionaries. They sponsor IMB because all the money comes out of the SBC into this fund for the International Mission Board. We didn’t want to do that. We wanted to be actually supported because we believed that people who paid prayed. And so we were not IMB, but Lake Point sent us out. So we were church planters in the South of France for a couple of years. And honestly the leadership there at our church, even though we weren’t going through our church, they were the ones that helped us through a really untenable situation. And our loyalty to that church was because they put us back together when we got back from the field.. Mary DeMuth: So much pouring in and so much love. And so we have been a life group leader for 20 of the 23 years. The only three years we weren’t was when we were in France, planting a church. And then I have run a couple of conferences, interestingly enough, called the Re-story Conference, which was very similar sounding to the Restore Conference. Mary DeMuth: And I also recorded a Life Way study at Lake Point for an audience. And then my husband was an elder at the church for five years. And so we have led mission teams all over the world for Lake Point. We have definitely been in the upper levels of volunteer leadership all these years and have enjoyed a lot of conviviality and fellowship. Mary DeMuth: And I never never. I always bragged about my church. It never crossed my mind that there would be a day that I wasn’t at that church anymore. And so as of December of 2023, we are away from there and making our way into a new space. Julie Roys: And I’ve talked about this on this podcast, but we’re in a house church with, some of the folks in our house church were at their previous church for over 30 years, and the amount of pain and loss and especially when you’re, when you’re our age, early 40s. Julie Roys: That’s it. It’s early 40s. No, when you’re a little bit older and later in life and to be at this point where you’re starting over is not at all where you expected to be, and it’s pretty tough to be there. You retain some of the friendships, but everything’s changed. And it just makes for a really really difficult road that you never planned to be on. Julie Roys: Your church; and this is a lot of the reason behind you leaving, changed dramatically in the last 5 years. Stephen Stroop was your previous pastor. And in 2019, I believe Josh Howerton came in. Your husband actually was on the elder board that approved him, right? Mary DeMuth: Yes. Yes. And we’ve had to work through that as you can imagine, because that’s painful to think about. And just to expand a little bit about the why is the basic reasons why we left. There’s a lot of things. As an author, as a published author and as a speaker, the plagiarism was just grating on me and I couldn’t stomach it, but that wasn’t the main reason. Mary DeMuth: Although it’s still very problematic to me. What’s more problematic is that they don’t think it’s a big deal and they don’t see it as sin, and I just disagree. But the two things that we, the two main things that caused us to walk away, one was we were told by leadership, by upper-level leadership, that there was no place for us to serve. Mary DeMuth: And that was really, that was about a year ago. And so it took us about a year to make that decision. Like we were still serving in our life group, but there were things that God has put in us as church planters. And as me, as an author and an advocate that we have a lot that we would love to be able to offer, and to have that cut off when we feel like we’re in the prime of service right now. We weren’t asking to be paid. This is all volunteer, but we were told we couldn’t. Mary DeMuth: And then the second thing that was kind of the straw was all of the crude words and the misogynistic statements that started around 2022 almost every sermon. And as an advocate for sexual abuse victims and as an advocate for women, I could no longer be associated with that church because it just didn’t, I just couldn’t be associated with it. Mary DeMuth: I have stood in front of the Southern Baptist Convention, and I have spoken and advocated, and I have been chewed up and spit out for it. And if I’m going to a church that is marginalizing women, it does not make sense. And so no place for us to serve, big, huge problem. And then I just couldn’t be connected with a church that had that kind of reputation. Julie Roys: Those reasons are huge. and make an awful lot of sense. The plagiarism as you said, the crude remarks, the misogynistic remarks. And for a lot of folks, if you’re like, what are they talking about? I do encourage you to go back and listen to our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, where we went over a lot of these things that Mary’s talking about that have happened in her church. Julie Roys: I’m sure there’s people listening, and they’re like, okay, that sounds really, really awful. But how do you know when you hit that tipping point? Because I remember talking to you a couple of years ago and me going, Hey, is this really your pastor? I’m seeing some stuff. How is this your pastor? And you’re like we’re serving, and we love our life group. I get it. I totally, totally get it. But how did you and Patrick, how did you get to the point where you’re like, this is the tipping point, no more? Mary DeMuth: We decided we went into this together, so we decided that we both had to have the same decision. We weren’t going to have one of us leave and one not leave. We were going to do this together. So that took a year of a lot of conversations. And we saw those red flags when you saw them. So we’ve seen them, but as you mentioned, the model of Lake Point used to be, it seems to be shifting now, but it used to be church within a church. And so your life group was really basically what you’re doing, Julie. It’s a small gathering of people where there is someone who teaches, and there’s someone who’s the missions coordinator. And there’s someone who, it’s that’s how, like your church is that group. And so we felt a deep, strong connection to our group. And we felt like we were the pastors of that church within a church. Mary DeMuth: The model has shifted. And I don’t know, it has never been articulated publicly, but it seems from the exterior looking in that it’s more becoming a franchise model, which is where you create this mother church, and it can be duplicated like MacDonald’s in any context. Therefore they may not have that idea that it is church within a church anymore. It has to be something replicatable on all other campuses. And so we began to see this shifting of, this is no longer church within a church, which is really what kept us there. We had people we were serving. And then honestly, I just couldn’t stomach sermons anymore. I couldn’t walk into that building anymore. Mary DeMuth: And as everything became a spectacle the longer we were there, it was all about Sunday morning and the spectacle that it had become like a circus, and I could not find Jesus there. And I would sit in the audience. We had beautifully. articulated and performed auto-tuned worship. It was beautiful. It sounded amazing. There was a lot of rah-rah-rah. There was a lot of energy and it felt like Ichabod to me, like to me as a Christ follower, a mature Christ follower of many years, I couldn’t feel the presence of the Lord anymore. And for me, that’s what is the point of going to a church, if that has happened to you? Mary DeMuth: I’m not saying that other people aren’t experiencing the Lord there. I’m not saying that other people aren’t becoming Christians there. They are. And that’s probably the most problematic part of this whole thing is that they are easily able to point to numbers that are flowing in through the front door, ignoring all of us that have left out the back door. Mary DeMuth: And because it is successful, therefore they can just call me names and malign me or people like Amanda and others, and they can dismiss us because look what God is doing. Julie Roys: And Amanda talked about that same thing about the church within a church and even how each of the churches had different women’s ministries. Julie Roys: And I think about it, it was so personal because people are different and they all had different campuses, have different makeup, they have different cultures and now, this franchise model where you go in, you order a Big Mac, and you get a Big Mac. That’s what you’re used to, right? Julie Roys: But is it? And probably our conversation today, we probably don’t have enough time to really delve into this, but this is something I have been thinking more and more about, is it even church if you have a place where it, maybe a Christian organization and maybe a Christian organization that blesses a lot of people but is it a church where you say to members of the body, we don’t need you, we don’t need your gift, and you can’t serve here? If we have a pastor who doesn’t even know people’s names, if we don’t have that kind of shepherding, is it even a church anymore? Mary DeMuth: I’ll back up before I answer that in that I’ve, been overseas and, anyone that’s been overseas and gone to a McDonald’s overseas knows they have different categories. So even franchises like McDonald’s in France has McWine, right? Or McVine. McDonald’s even understands contextualizing the hamburger to the person, and to the people. So that’s an odd thing for me that there would be this idea that you can just, this is the model and we’re superimposing it on all sorts of different economic people and people in different cultures, and we’re just gonna superimpose it there, which seems super weird to me. Mary DeMuth:  On the, is this a church? We have to just go back to simplicity, which is, are we celebrating the Lord’s Supper? Are there sacraments there? Is the word of God being delivered and is it? Mary DeMuth: And then deeper than that, are  disciples being made? because there’s a big, huge difference between converts who hear something. And I think about the parable of the soils, they hear it, they receive it with joy, they have no root and then they walk away. We’re not teaching a theology of suffering in most of these bigger churches for sure. Mary DeMuth: But I think we need to remember that a church is supposed to be a place of koinonia, a place of fellowship, a place where we are iron sharpening iron, and a place of discipleship where people are not just converted, but they are just doing the slow work of people pouring into each other’s lives. That’s discipleship. That’s not a top-down model. That’s not pastor to congregation. That’s person to person. And when a church gets so big for its britches these things can fall through the cracks. Mary DeMuth: Now, Lake Point had done a very good job of doing that discipleship piece through their vehicle of a life group. But as things have shifted, we’re seeing a lot less of that. And again, I haven’t been there for six months, so they could be doing it. I don’t know, but just from my perspective today that’s something that’s been difficult to see. Julie Roys: You alluded to this earlier, this idea of leaving well. It’s hard to leave well and even to define what leaving well is. I will say there was one church that my husband and I ended up leaving and it was over a theological disagreement that we just felt we couldn’t bend on. And at the same time, we felt really pulled to another church. They actually had us come up and explain why we were leaving and gathered around us and prayed for us. Julie Roys: That was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen where it was just like, differences and God makes calling you here. We want to bless you as you go. And you’ve met a lot to this church and we mean a lot to each other and let’s just bless each other. It was so beautiful, and I don’t know why this can’t happen more. But usually it’s just a lot of pain and a lot of heartache And when you talk about leaving well, what it usually means to a lot of people, and I’ve heard even Christian leaders talk about this. When you leave well, you just keep your stuff to yourself. Julie Roys: The issues that you had, you suck them under, and you don’t speak about it. And honestly, I think that’s part of our problem in the church is that we don’t talk about our problems. And so we wait till they become a major scandal or crisis. And then they really blow up. And we allow abusive pastors just kind of reign; to continue doing what they’re doing. Julie Roys: So talk about this concept of leaving well. Obviously, you’ve chosen to speak rather boldly about what happened there. I think really from a heart of love and concern for both the church and the people there, not just to vent how you’re feeling. But talk about that and how you’ve come to the decision you have about that. Mary DeMuth: First, I’ll say there’s been kind of  an unholy silence. We were pretty high up and we have not been followed up with, and the very few times we were invited into those spaces, it was difficult. So there is that. I would encourage church leaders to do what your former church did, because I think there’s a lot to be learned. Mary DeMuth: I also need to say that we didn’t leave from a position of canceling and of immaturity. There’s one thing if you’re like a church hopper and you’re like, just running around with a consumeristic mindset like, what do I get in this for me? A lot of people that are leaving churches are being accused of being that. But the ones that I know that have left this church are mature, deep believers in Christ who are seeing so many red flags. Mary DeMuth: And the reason I articulated it was because I was running into people who were brokenhearted and didn’t have words for it. And somehow through the grace of God and through his power and his ability, I was able to say the things that people were feeling so that they would no longer feel alone. I would rather have been silent if the Lord hadn’t put his hand on me. Mary DeMuth: I would rather grieve this alone and quietly, but I have seen a lot of really good conversation and ministry happen because of this. I’m not out to harm the reputation of the church. I will never tell someone to leave a church unless they’re being abused, obviously, that’s their own decision. Mary DeMuth: They have the autonomy to make that decision between them and God. But I do want to be a listening ear and an empath for those who are bewildered at the church they’re going to that no longer looks like the church they used to go to. Julie Roys: So tell me what is gossip because this is what is, this is the word, I’ve gotten called this myriads and myriads of times. But what is gossip? And clearly you don’t believe this falls into that category. Why? Mary DeMuth: It’s not gossip to share your emotions about how you’re reacting to an abuse. That is actually being a lot like Paul. And if you look at the letters throughout the epistles in particular, you see Paul saying things about churches. Mary DeMuth: And so if we’re going to talk about gossip, we’d have to call him a gossip because he was constantly calling out, Hey, listen, those Judaizers, they don’t really have it right. Oh, listen, this Gnosticism isn’t good. And that guy’s having sex with his mother-in-law. These kinds of things are, he’s very clear. Mary DeMuth: These are not untrue things he’s saying. These are actually true statements. And underneath all of that is a desire for the church to be the body of Christ and to be holy. It’s not slander because it’s telling the truth. And it’s always with a desire to see God do good work in the local church. And if she is straying, if you love her, you will say something about it. Mary DeMuth: Now there’s a manner in which you can do that. You can be really caustic. You can speak the truth without love, but we are called to speak the truth with love. And I believe that we have conflagrated speaking the truth in love with gossip, and those are two different things. Gossip intends to harm the reputation of another or of an entity; telling the truth in love tries to help that institution have a mirror and see what’s going on. Julie Roys: The motive is really important, although I always get frustrated when people try to judge other people’s motives because the truth is, you don’t know somebody else’s heart. And that’s something I never do. I’ll talk about actions, but I don’t know someone’s heart. Only God knows the heart. But I know that’s something I constantly check myself about is my desire for repentance? is my desire to see these leaders repent? 100 percent, and I know you well enough to know that you would be absolutely thrilled and would extend grace if the leaders who have hurt you so deeply would repent of their sin and would change their ways. I know that and I’m sure you pray for that, that you and Patrick are praying right now for that. Am I right? Mary DeMuth: Absolutely. That is  underneath all of this, is just a desire to see the local church healthy and to see her lift up the name of Jesus. And we also just want to again put up a mirror of is this representing the kingdom of God or is this representing something else? And that’s what we were coming to find. Patrick and I both were. The kingdom’s upside down. It’s counterintuitive. It’s the least is the most. And the most is the least. It’s not about building platforms. It’s not about being the winner. It’s not about Christian nationalism. It’s none of these. I don’t even like those two words together. Mary DeMuth: It’s not about power. Jesus willingly laid down his power and he considered equality with God, not something to be grasped. He made himself nothing. And when I see a lot of these big churches and not all of them, but a lot of them where it is very male leader centric celebrity driven. And really about, we want to be the coolest people with the biggest numbers. Mary DeMuth: I don’t get it. They’ll point to Acts chapter two. They’ll talk about how many were added to the kingdom on that day. They’ll call that a mega church. It was not a mega church. People were still meeting in homes. So we just have to be careful. I’m not against mega churches. I actually think that there’s a place for them. Mary DeMuth: Over the years, they we have had the benefit of a megachurch that can go into a community and say, oh, you need a church building, here you go. Like they can do some things that a littler church can’t do. So I’m not against the megachurch, but there is something fallible in the model, the consumeristic model, that is causing all of this anguish. Julie Roys: And I’d say the leadership model. Because we have imported a leadership model that’s of the world and done the exact opposite of what Jesus said, don’t be like the Gentiles who lorded over them, but instead, whoever wants to be first should be last, whoever wants to be greatest should be least. Julie Roys: It is the upside-down kingdom, and we’ve forgotten that. We’ve become just like the world, and we count our success the same way as the world. And we’ve seen this going, it’s been going on a very long time, and I think the megachurches get a lot of the criticism because they’ve. been kind of doing it in spades in an awful lot of them and then exporting these values to all the smaller churches who are wannabes, right? Julie Roys: So you even have smaller churches that are trying to do the exact same thing and they think it’s right because it’s successful very much in the American model of success, which is bigger and better. Before we go forward, there is something I do want to ask you, though, and I would be remiss if I didn’t. What was it about what you and Patrick that you were doing that they didn’t want you serving? Mary DeMuth: I don’t know. They just didn’t want us. That’s what’s been hard is, it’s a speculative, I just don’t know. And I’m willing to be talked to about those things, of course. Like if they feel like something that we’re not godly enough or we’re, or I’m too public or whatever it is, I don’t know. Mary DeMuth: But I do know this, I do know this. When we were told this, what we learned was that they had been morphing from a church that had a lot of lay leaders to a higher control situation where only people who are employed by the church could be in charge of ministries. And so, you can control that. If you can control someone's salary, you can control the whole thing. Mary DeMuth: And so we were just told there is no place for you because we’re not on staff. So that’s probably my guess at a reason is that we were not controllable. And the statement made to us is I’ve got 30 other people just like you that are well trained and that have gone, my husband went to seminary, and all that, but will never use them. We will never use them. And basically, you just need to get over it. You will never be used. Julie Roys:  What a waste of resources. Unbelievable. The kingdom is not so well resourced that we don’t need every single person; that God didn’t give gifts every single one of them to be used. Julie Roys: But I will say, I’ve seen this happen before. And the beautiful thing is, people get dispersed, people like yourself and like Patrick, too often churches that are very needy very welcoming. Like Oh, thank God. It’s like Christmas come early, come to Moots, come to our church. And I’m sure you’re experiencing that because I can’t imagine not wanting you and Patrick at my church. It’s just shocking to me. But yeah, that is a benefit of it. It’s the church in Jerusalem getting persecuted. Then they went to the ends of the earth, and we can do that. Julie Roys: One of the things that I’ve seen be a silver lining, if you can call it that, in these sorts of situations is you’re a church refugee, but there’s a lot of other ones out there, too. And there can be a great deal of deep fellowship. And, in many ways, that’s what RESTORE is. It’s a gathering of a lot of not just refugees, a lot of helpers and pastors and people who are allies who just want to know more. But. There’s an awful lot of us there that have been hurt by the church, and there’s just this beautiful, sweet fellowship. Julie Roys: And my understanding is, and Amanda alluded to it in our last podcast, that you guys have served as pastors to these refugees. Would you talk about that sweet group that you were able to love on and pastor through this and just help them? Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we definitely were praying, and we just kept coming upon people. And in particular, people who had been employed but had been harshly fired in very traumatic ways. And we just felt so deeply. I mean for us, it’s sad and we were highly involved and it’s sad, but it wasn’t our job. And so we just had this empathy for those folks. And so we gathered as much as we knew, we put the word out quietly. Mary DeMuth: We gathered people for several weeks and met with them. And these were people that some were still there, and some were not, and some were walking away from Jesus. It was just the whole gamut of a wide variety of people in a lot of pain. And what we wanted to do was just to help them know our first session was called, You are not crazy. We just wanted them to know. that what they had seen and experienced was real and validated by the rest of us. And then we’ve just been walking through Chuck DeGroat's information about narcissism in the church and narcissistic church systems. And then talking about what is a safe person and what is a safe system. And then praying and crying and grieving and giving people the space that they are not allowed to have to get out all this junk that’s inside of us because it’s been so, so painful. Julie Roys: And I want to get to the safe system and the safe person, because I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening who would like that information as well. Julie Roys: But let’s talk about the feelings first, because when this happens, there is. Again, we talked about bewilderment. There’s just this mix of negative emotions that you don’t know what to do with a lot of times. One is anger and anger in the church has been one of these emotions that we just don’t deal with very well. And I’ve said this numerous times, but this is one that we’ll get. We’ll get thrown back in my face and people say, you sound like you’re angry and I’m like, darn I’m angry. Why aren’t you angry? Why wouldn’t we be angry when these awful things are happening in the church? And yet again, as a Christian, we feel guilty when we’re angry. So how have you dealt with your own anger, and helped others who are dealing with similar anger? Mary DeMuth: The first thing that we did was we process outside of the circle of the church because we needed to know if we were going crazy. Is this normal? Are these things that we’re saying? Is it a big deal? Or are we just being babies? We definitely did that. And then it’s been the prayer of let this anger fuel something beautiful, because I do believe that great movements of God happen because there’s injustice and we are angry at the injustice. Mary DeMuth: I often joke that I write a book when I’m angry, so I must be a pretty angry person at book 52. There’s injustice in this world and our God is righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne. When we do the work of making note of people who are being hurt and oppressed and harmed, we are doing the Lord’s work. And so that anger can be a fuel to doing positive things Mary DeMuth:. Now, I also just want to say, it’s okay to be angry. I’m angry and I have been angry and I’m processing that with friends and I’m processing it with my husband and with the Lord. Rightfully so, because I see so many people, to use Mark Driscoll’s frustrating phraseology, the people behind the bus. I’m meeting so many people behind the bus that are getting the bus is backing up over the people. Because not only cause when if you say anything, if you dare to say anything, you will get run over again and again, you will be accused of all sorts of things when really your desire is to see people set free and to open the eyes of people that are being harmed so that they no longer have to be in that system anymore. Julie Roys: And what a great deal of fear these leaders must feel. to behave that way that you have to annihilate people who say anything negative. I’ve gotten quite comfortable with people saying negative things. I just want to make sure if there’s truth in it, that I take it to heart. It’s okay, but in the end of the day, you’ve got to be okay with who you are before your Lord. And those closest to you who will tell you the truth when you’re veering off. That desire to control that desire that you have to shut down negative communication. I can’t imagine living in that much fear that you constantly are doing that. And yet that’s what we see. Julie Roys: And that whole thing about feeling like you’re crazy. So much of that’s because you’ve been told you’re crazy. You’ve been told that because that’s the gaslighting that happens when you say there’s a problem. No, there is no problem. You’re the problem. Mary DeMuth: It’s back to the emperor with no clothes. We all see the naked emperor and only a little kid says he’s not wearing any clothes. And we’re like Oh, yeah, but there’s this like kind of delusional thing or czarist Russia, the Potemkin village. If you know what that is, it was a village that was just set up like a movie set so that when the czar went by he could see that this Potemkin’s village was actually a really cool place, but you open the door, you walk through, it’s just mud and dirt on the other side and some horses grazing in a field. Church is not a Potemkin village. It should never be. It should not be a facade that we are trying to hold up by shaming people who say negative things. The church is a living, breathing organization. It is the body of Christ. Mary DeMuth: God does not need to be defended. He can do just fine by himself. And this fear that you talk about is very real because it’s about human empire. Whenever we build our Roman empire on our cult of personality and our particular views about things and not on the word of God and not on studying the word of God, then we will be threatened by anyone who says anything negative because that will eat away at the foundation of our FACO empire. Julie Roys: Very well said. That is very well said. Let’s talk about grief. And I was reminded of the Kubler Ross Stages of grief. And let me see. Those are denial, which is often where we start, right? When things go wrong, anger, the bargaining we can work this out somehow, right? Depression and sink into that deep depression. This is just so sad. And then there’s acceptance, which is that last one. And it’s not like these are completely linear because what I found is you go through, oh, I’ve worked through to acceptance. No, I haven’t. I’m back at anger again. Julie Roys: Something will happen. it'll put you right back there. So it’s not completely linear, but how have you moved toward acceptance? What does acceptance look like? And maybe that’s a long way off but talk about where you’re at in that whole process. Mary DeMuth: I think a lot of people are in this space. There’s a lot of loyal people and that’s where the bargaining comes in. And a lot of the people I’ve talked to are like, yeah, I never go to that church anymore, like to the services, but I’m here because of my small group and they’re my church. There’s this, that we were in that space for a really long time. We can make this work. This is our church, not that other part is not the church, but it’s all together. Mary DeMuth: So once we got to the decision and made the decision, then the depression set in for sure. And I think I’m still there working my way through it of thinking that I was going to be there the rest of my life. As a person who grew up in a really difficult home and met Jesus at 15 years old, the church became my family. My family was not my family. And the church was the one place where I could go to be loved, to be healed, to be worked, just to work through my salvation with fear and trembling. And so, to walk away from something that you’ve been at the most we’ve ever been at a church is 23. This is the longest we’ve ever been somewhere to walk away from. It felt like I lost my limb. I lost my family, my father’s in the faith, my mother’s in the faith, my aunts, and my uncles in the faith. And then to be villainized for just having eyes to see what the heck is going on, has been devastating, devastating. So I’m still in the grief phase and I don’t cry much about it because I’ve sometimes just shoved it way down deep because I did not ever expect that I was going to have to leave a place I loved so much. Julie Roys: There’s a, I think it’s a short story and I should know the name of it, but it’s about someone, a man who goes to a cemetery and he sees a woman just weeping and weeping, and he’s there to visit his partner who had died. I don’t think he had actually married her. But he realizes in that moment that the person who’s grieving, who’s crying and just sobbing is the richer person. Because they had loved deeply and he had never loved that deeply. And I’ve thought about that, I lost my mother over 20 years ago and she was so special and I never like, I hear some people talk about their mothers, and how difficult or what I never felt that way. My mother was just a joy, but it was so hard to lose her, but it was hard because I loved her so much. Julie Roys: And I think, I’m so grateful for you that you did have that church experience where you were loved so deeply, where you loved deeply, and I’ve got to believe that God will provide that family again. It will be different. And I know I just feel so blessed by our church family that we found in this wasteland or out of the wasteland. Julie Roys: But it’s been really, really special because I don’t have to explain anything to these people. They understand the world I work in. They understand. It’s just, it’s really been a gift. And I think it’s been a gift too. And I know you have adult children. I’m glad I had these adult children because they’re a blessing in ways that they couldn’t be and a support in ways that they couldn’t be when they were younger, when we had to be everything to them. Julie Roys: And I’m glad I’m not dealing with, and I know a lot of people are,  is what do we do for our kids now? And then there’s that pressure to find something for your children right away. And that makes it really hard. But as believers, we are taught, Hebrews 10:25, let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but all the more as the day of the Lord approaches, let us encourage each other and all the more as the day approaches. I have found sometimes that can be used as a club against people who are just grieving, and they’re dealing with a great deal of betrayal trauma at this point. Julie Roys: And now we’re going to hit them over the head and say, you better be in church on Sunday. When they walk into a church and it just triggers, it’s a trigger for them. I believe in fellowship. I believe in the church. I love the church, but I am concerned about the process of helping people reengage after they’ve been wounded so profoundly. Julie Roys: So speak to this process of finding a new church home, or even having the freedom for a period of time to say, I don’t know. I don’t know that I can do that right now. Obviously, there is a danger if we’re out of fellowship for too long. But speak to that person who right now is outside of fellowship and really afraid to reengage with it. Mary DeMuth: Yeah. First, you’re super normal. And if you’ve been wounded in a terrible community, the stakes are pretty high, when you walk in, especially if you’re triggered or traumatized by walking into a building. I don’t know that I could walk into a big church right now. Like I just don’t think I could, I think I would have a hard time with that. Mary DeMuth: So for us, how we went about it and everyone’s going to be different, we did want to land somewhere because we just feel like we’re in that stage of, we want to serve the church. And so for our little parameters, and I think it’ll be different for every person. Ours was, it needs to be local. And we’re hoping that there will be people there already that we’re friends with. Mary DeMuth: And since we’re in a little town, right? So there’s, 1 billion churches and little towns in Texas, right? So we had plenty to choose from so many, and we didn’t even get to all of them, but that was our parameter in choosing a home. In fact, we just officially joined a church yesterday. So it did take some time to get to that place. But I just want to let you know that it’s normal to be scared, to be triggered, to be in pain. Mary DeMuth: Don’t let it stay there. You are wounded in a negative community and the Lord is very frustrating and he asks you to be healed in good community. That’s hard. But a relational wound requires a relational cure, and that’s one reason why Patrick and I have been pouring into people who are hurt because we want to be that safer relationship for people to be falling apart or hurting or ask really blunt questions and be really ticked off. Because I believe people are healed in community when they’re wounded in community. Julie Roys: 100%. And I know when I came through just so much grief and pain and church hurt. I know a lot of people go to therapy and I’m not against therapy, but I was like, I don’t need to talk to this about this with a counselor. It’s just not like that. I need to be in a community where there’s love. I need to see beauty in people like again. And even though I’m afraid to be vulnerable on some levels at the same time, I’m compelled to be vulnerable because I know until you do that, you can’t heal. Mary DeMuth: When we met with the person who became our pastor and there’s a multiplicity of pastors in this particular denomination, but we sat across from him and we told him our story and he just listened, and he dignified the story. And then he said this, he said, we just want to love you. And I just immediately just, I was like, what? you don’t want to use me? Cause we’ve been in leadership positions in the church for so long, our whole adult lives we’ve been in those positions and for him to say, we just want to love you. And that was foreign to me, but that was the beginning of that healing journey. Julie Roys: I had a pastor at one of the churches we visited when we were in this search process. And it was at a very large church I would say it’s probably a megachurch, and we sat across from him and he said a very similar thing. It was really wonderful. And he said, “I think you guys have been wounded deeply, and you need a place to heal. And we do just want to love you. What was interesting is when I came back to him with a follow up email, because part of me is like wait, this is a megachurch. Am I insane? Julie Roys: I’m just like looking at it and being like,  I don’t think this is at all what I want. And then I emailed him. I said, we want a pastor. Would you be able to pastor us? And then he basically declined as nicely as he could; like I’d love to be, but I can’t and I’m like I don’t need a small group leader to try and pastor me. I was just kind of like of course, you can’t because you have the corporation to run. And so that is again a fundamental issue that I do have with the mega church. Julie Roys: One thing I found and I see it here, because I don’t know how many people in the Chicago area who have left Willow Creek and ended up at Harvest. They’re like, wow, di I know how to pick them! They’re going from something that’s become familiar. And if you became a believer at Willow, then that big model, that big service, whiz bang entertaining sermon or inspirational talk, whatever you want to call it. Julie Roys: Although I’ll say at Harvest, he preached he discipled people. I know a lot of people from Harvest that were discipled shockingly by a really depraved pastor. But I see them going from what they’re used to. And it’s almost like when I see people who grew up in a dysfunctional home and thank God you didn’t do this, but they often then replicate that in their own home, or they’re attracted to that same kind of dysfunction in the next home. Julie Roys: And I’ve seen it with churches and I’m just like, why are you going to the same model of church that you just left? And I see that there’s this thought in their head that it’s just the one bad apple. That’s all it is. It’s the one bad apple, but basically there’s nothing wrong with the system. Julie Roys: I think there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system. So speak to that. Do you think, I know you’ve got some pretty strong opinions now about celebrity megachurches, even though you said some megachurches we’ve seen work. Do you have some thoughts about the model of church and what makes a safe church? Mary DeMuth: Yes. So many thoughts. I’ll start with a story. In the early two thousand, I went to my first Christian writers conference before I was published and on the airplane on the way there, my story flashed before my eyes and I said, Lord I’ve withstood a lot of trials. Like I’ve gone through a lot of trials. Mary DeMuth: And he said clearly to me, you have withstood many trials, but will you withstand the trial of notoriety? And that has stayed in my mind all these years because fame emaciates, fame makes you think that you’re better than other people and that people exist to serve you rather than you equipping the saints for the work of service. Mary DeMuth: And when the systems are in a place, typically what happens is the ego takes over. There’s something deep within the narcissistic system. And in the narcissistic pastor, they have this wound that they can’t fill except by acclaim. And then it’s like a drug, so they have to keep being acclaimed. They cannot have negative things said about them. Mary DeMuth: Therefore, the next thing they’ll do is they will dismantle the elder board, or they will significantly reduce the influence of the elder board that exists or completely dismantle it altogether. They will gather yes-men around themselves who will only say positive things to them that are not in their context that cannot see them do the bad things And who are other megachurch pastors. So there’s just this like cabal of megachurch pastors that are sitting on each other’s boards saying you can do whatever you want and have fun. Mary DeMuth: That system is ungodly and that will cause the fall of many leaders, which we have already seen over and over and over. It’s like a broken record of sameness. It keeps happening. Why? Because I think we are creating a church structure from a pyramid, which if you look in the Bible, the Israelites left Egypt, but were still looking back at it. One person at the top, one Pharaoh at the top, one supreme ruler, and then everybody has to fit into that system underneath that pyramid. Mary DeMuth: Whereas the kingdom of God is the opposite of that. It’s an inverted pyramid. The kingdom is of people that are last to are not acknowledged. And I think we’re going to be super surprised at where they are standing in line and the new heavens and the new earth, the people with all the acclaim are going to be way at the back. The people that nobody knew about that were silently and quietly serving the Lord are going to be at the front of the line. And we’re going to say, tell me your story, I want to learn from you. Mary DeMuth: But these structures cause the downfall of many men who do not have the character to hold up that structure. They’ve been given leadership responsibility without having maturity, and therefore they are stealing sermons. They are harming people with their words. They are demonizing others. They are all sorts of things you talked about last week. They’re doing those things because they have to keep their empire because their ego needs it so badly. Julie Roys: And the other thing is, and we can’t really even go into this, although I know you see this too, because you run your own literary agency, is that the evangelical industrial complex needs these celebrity pastors to function. So they need the publishing companies need the celebrities so that they can publish them, so that the megachurches need the celebrity to fuel their model of that great attractional speaker that can be everything. Which again, does just feed into the narcissism and it attracts the narcissism. Julie Roys: We like the narcissist. And the whole entire moneymaking empire runs on these narcissists and these celebrity pastors. And so it’s not just even the pastor himself who needs to be a celebrity, but it’s this system that needs celebrities. And at some point, Mary we’ve got to deal with this and evangelicalism, or we’re just going to keep doing this over and over and over again. Mary DeMuth: And I believe the Lord is bringing judgment on those systems. And we’re seeing that in publishing as well. I think it’s a broken system. We make these requirements of how popular you are to be able to be an author. In the nineties and before, it was really about can you write a good book? Is it theologically sound? Do you have a good mind? Do you have a heart to minister to others? And now it’s how many social media followers do you have? Which is you can buy those. Mary DeMuth: So what does that even mean? I hate being a cog in the Christian industrial complex, both as an author and as a literary agent, but as an agent, I feel like I’m championing projects that would otherwise not get sold. That are more global voices people that are marginalized and not often given a voice. So that’s why I have a literary agency. Cause I’m trying to have those voices platformed. Julie Roys: Before you go, I want to ask you also about, we’ve talked a little bit about a safe church, but what makes somebody a safe person as you’re trying to process this? Mary DeMuth: A safe person is someone who doesn’t speak initially, who is an active listener. Who doesn’t jump to conclusions, who doesn’t feel the need to defend the church that you are leaving, who doesn’t say things like Hebrew says don’t forsake your assembling together. Those kinds of like cliche, like super cliche oh, you better do this instead of just meeting you in your grief. Mary DeMuth: A safe person doesn’t try to change your state. They come alongside you into your state and they weep alongside. And that to me is so powerful. People won’t remember what you said, but they will remember that you were there with them in the pain. And we’re just willing to say, yeah, that hurts. And, oh, that must’ve been very painful. Just that empathy piece. Julie Roys: And they won’t shame you for deconstructing. They’ll walk with you; they’ll allow you to process. And I hate that when I see that. I see it on social media all the time, people denigrating people who are deconstructing and I’m like, maybe if you didn’t do that, maybe they wouldn’t be walking away from their faith. But again, deconstructing, I think takes a lot of different forms. I think for a lot of people that have gone through it; they’ve come back to a richer faith that stripped of maybe some of the baggage that they had previously. Julie Roys: Before I let you go, because I know a lot of people listening are in this place of just really, really  struggling and in a lot of hurt. And I know you have names and faces for those people too. Would you be willing to just pray for them and what they’re going through right now? Mary DeMuth: I will. And I’m just going to mention, I have a free resource, MARYDEMUTH.COM/CHURCHHURT. And it’s a hundred statements about things that people feel when they’re going through church hurt so that you can share it with a friend and check off the ones that are you, and then have a good conversation about it. Julie Roys: Wonderful. What a great resource. Thank you. Mary DeMuth: Yeah. Okay. Let me pray. Lord, thank you for loving the least of these. Thank you for leaving the 99 and chasing the one. Thank you for being counterintuitive. Thank you for the Sermon on the Mount. Thank you for your grace being sufficient for us and your power is made perfect in our weakness. Mary DeMuth: Lord, forgive us for these systems where we are worshiping strength, power, and numbers when that’s nothing to do with your kingdom. Reorient our lives and our hearts to what is your kingdom. Help us to hear your voice in the midst of the madness and the muddledness of what this has become. I pray that you would send friends to my friends who are suffering in the aftermath of spiritual abuse and church hurt. Mary DeMuth: I pray for hope Lord in these kinds of situations, it can feel like a death, and it feels very hopeless and sad. I pray for comfort and pray all of this in your beautiful name, Jesus. Amen. Julie Roys: Amen. Mary. Thank you so much. And how beautiful that even in this you are ministering to others through it. So I am just so grateful for you and for Patrick and for what you bring to the kingdom. And thank you so much for being willing to talk so vulnerably and bravely. So thank you. Mary DeMuth: Thank you. Julie Roys: And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I want to invite all of you to our next Restore Conference in Phoenix in February 2025. Julie Roys: This is one of the most healing gatherings I know of, where you won’t just hear from amazing folks like Mary DeMuth and Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tove, and Dr. David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. But you’ll also meet lots of other people who have gone through similar experiences, and I’ve found that just being in that kind of community is so healing. Julie Roys: And so powerful. So please come. I would love to meet you there. To find out more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. Julie Roys: And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. 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Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/ZOOhWWj5AqIAccording to the Houston Chronicle, hundreds have recently left Lakepointe Church—Josh Howerton's prominent megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Now a longtime volunteer leader at Lakepointe, who recently left the church with her family, is speaking out. Joining host Julie Roys on this edition of The Roys Report is Amanda Cunningham, a former model and actress who became a Christian at Lakepointe Church under former Senior Pastor Steve Stroope. She also served as a leader in both the marriage ministry and women's ministry, which boomed during her years there. But in 2019, Stroope retired, and young pastor Josh Howerton was hired to replace him. According to Amanda, that's when a major transformation occurred. Ministries were canceled as the church sought to become more centralized and on-brand. Emails from Amanda to those in her ministry were canceled, and they were replaced by communications from central leadership. Soon, outsiders began posting about Howerton's plagiarized sermons. His behavior online, and in sermons, led to allegations of misogyny. Then, Howerton told a joke that some said promoted marital rape. Howerton apologized for the joke, but as TRR reported, he apparently plagiarized his apology! Most recently, the church, in an effort to gain city approval for a traffic light, urged people in the church to sign up to drive repeatedly through an intersection to manipulate the findings of a traffic study. All these events, plus interactions Amanda witnessed personally, made her and her husband feel like they no longer could attend the church. Now, she's speaking out to warn others. After 11 years doing life and ministry at Lakepointe, it wasn't easy or simple for Amanda and her husband to exit. Her eye-opening account covers what led them to that point—plus insights on church celebrity culture, top-down leadership, and spiritual abuse that are widely applicable. Guests Amanda Cunningham Amanda Cunningham is a former model/actress who left her career behind when she became a mom. Subsequently, she spun into an identity crisis and was later stunned to find her true identity in Christ. Amanda is a writer, speaker, wife of a fire Deputy Chief, and mother of two girls. Connect with Amanda on Facebook. Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/fFImYJWb2XUNancy French was once a darling of the GOP—and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump's candidacy for president—something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy says she could not support. Then, she was ghosted. In this edition of The Roys Report, Nancy French, a New York Times bestselling author and Christian conservative, recounts how she's been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why, as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn't support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had. And she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. Nancy French and her husband have been at the center of the major upheaval our nation has faced—as a new political paradigm invaded the church pews. As an abuse survivor and woman of conviction, Nancy courageously shares her story that has insights for every listener. Guests Nancy French Nancy French has collaborated on multiple books for celebrities - five of which made the New York Times best seller list. She has conducted a multi-year journalistic investigation, written commentary, and published for the nation's most prominent newspapers and magazines. She has written several books under her own name and tells her own story in Ghosted: An American Story. She lives in Franklin, Tennessee with her husband – journalist David French – and family. Learn more at NancyFrench.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys, NANCY FRENCH Julie Roys  00:04Nancy French was once a darling of the GOP and ghostwrote books, speeches, and articles for some of the leading conservative politicians. But then came Donald Trump’s candidacy for president; something as both a Christian and a sex abuse survivor, Nancy couldn’t support. Then she was ghosted. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Nancy French, a New York Times best-selling author, a Christian and a conservative who’s been called some of the worst names in the book. Why? Simply because she and her husband, New York Times opinion columnist David French, refused to violate their convictions and promote Donald Trump. Even more egregious to some, Nancy published an article in the Washington Post explaining why as a sex abuse survivor, she couldn’t support a man who bragged about assaulting women. As a result, she lost every ghostwriting client she had, and she found herself unwelcome in her own tribe and her own church. Nancy writes about all of this in her book Ghosted, which we’re offering this month to anyone who gives a gift of $50 or more to The Roys Report. And if you’d like to do that, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. But Nancy tells about much more in her book than just the events of the last few years. She tells us about her humble beginnings, her sexual assault by a pastor who taught Vacation Bible School, and the dramatic change in her life when she met her husband, David French. I’m so excited to share both the book and this podcast with you. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Justice has become a key issue in our culture. But more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by his word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. And I’ll be teaching a session as well focusing on the right use of power in our churches, so we can protect the vulnerable rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of character. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again joining me is New York Times best-selling author Nancy French. As a ghostwriter, she’s written for a variety of people, from well-known politicians to celebrities. She’s also investigated and exposed widespread sexual and spiritual abuse at Kanakuk camp, America’s largest Christian camp, and her latest book Ghosted, tells her remarkable story of growing up in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, marrying David French, a New York Times opinion columnist, becoming a ghostwriter for conservative political leaders. And then when she and her husband opposed Trump, getting kicked out by their own tribe and then becoming the target of white nationalists and Trump supporters. So Nancy, welcome, and it’s just such a privilege to have you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:08 Thanks for having me on. This is fun.   Julie Roys  04:11 And I know that this is not the best time for you to be doing a book tour. You’ve been very public about your struggle with cancer. And I know you’re going through chemo. And I just feel honored that you’d be willing to take the time in the middle of something like that to talk about this. So thank you.   NANCY FRENCH  04:27 Yeah, no, thank you so much. Yes, I think I’ve done pretty well with all the interviews, even though I’m high as a kite on prednisone. And I haven’t said too many things that I maybe regretted later. But I’m very thankful to be able to have a book out. It just so happens, it’s in the middle of chemo. So this is gonna get real.   Julie Roys  04:45 Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I was surprised when I read your book. I mean, you and David are kind of like this powerhouse couple. And yet, you had very humble beginnings. In fact, your grandparents lived in the mountains of Appalachia; you lived in the foothills because your parents moved. But again, they were interesting sort of rough and tumble group of people. In fact, your dad used to joke that your family was famous or maybe infamous is a better word. Tell us a little bit about that and the background of your family.   NANCY FRENCH  05:19 Yeah, we get accused a lot of being like Washington, DC cocktail party elites or whatever. I don’t even go to Washington DC. I am from Tennessee. My parents are from Montego mountain. My grandfather was a coal miner. My dad did not graduate from high school. He got his GED. And he later in his 50s went back to college. But  he went to college, he got a degree and amazing man. But yeah, from self-described hillbillies, and all that entails. And yeah, I wanted to sort of describe my upbringing, just so that people could understand that many times people will say, Well, you just don’t understand what true Americans think or you don’t understand what true Tennesseans think. And I always sort of in my mind laugh at that because I’m like, you can’t out Tennessee me. You can be an American and a real Tennessean and hold the beliefs that I hold, you know, so that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to describe that upbringing. I love my family. They’re amazing. They’re fierce. And I think some of that ferocity has been passed on to me and I just I love my hillbilly family.   Julie Roys  06:32 And your part Cherokee Indian too?   NANCY FRENCH  06:35 Yeah, we have a lot of Indian blood. So my grandmother was I think was 1/4. And that was Cherokee. And then my grandfather also had a different type of Montana Indian in him, which is interesting. But yeah, it was all mixed together.   Julie Roys  06:52 So your dad broke from your family, moved to the foothills. Mayfield, Kentucky, which I know where that’s at. My dad actually lives near there now. But Mayfield, Kentucky, then eventually to Tennessee. Talk about the culture of the home that you grew up in, but also the town and sort of rural Tennessee and what that was like.   NANCY FRENCH  07:16 So Paris, Tennessee, has a 16-foot-tall Eiffel Tower,   Julie Roys  07:22 An Eiffel Tower.   NANCY FRENCH  07:25 There’s a huge battle between Paris, Texas and Paris, Tennessee over this Eiffel Tower business. But Paris, Tennessee is an amazing place. I grew up near the lake, Kentucky lake. We have a 60-foot Eiffel Tower. It’s just a great place to grow up very rural. We did not necessarily value education in the way that you would think a school might. For example, in seventh grade, I did not have science class, but instead they decided because none of us were going to go to college, to teach us about guns and so we had hunter safety classes and that culminated in skeet shooting contest. Which, I don’t like to brag, I don’t like to but sometimes you got to. I was the best shot in my seventh-grade class. Which is interesting and funny, but that’s how I grew up; just complete redneck hillbilly sort of existence and I loved it. Like I love Paris, Tennessee. I love Montego mountain and I love Mayfield, Kentucky.   Julie Roys  08:28 Well, it’s funny you say you lived in Paris, Kentucky. My parents for probably about 12 years lived in London, Kentucky, which you know, we didn’t know Kentucky at all. We grew up in Pennsylvania, but we thought it was kind of comical because it’s the least like London of any place I can think of in all of the United State.   NANCY FRENCH  08:47 There’s also Versailles.   Julie Roys  08:49 Versailles right. Not Versailles. But Versailles.   08:52 Yes. And there’s also a fence. Right. Yeah, it’s crazy. Love all these small towns.   Julie Roys  08:59 Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that your dad did differently than your growing up or his growing up, I mean, he came from sort of a superstitious, it sounded like background very sort of animated with maybe tribal kind of religion. But then he became a part of the Church of Christ, and describe what that church was like, I mean, seems from your description, very conservative, but also kind of leaning towards the legalistic side.   NANCY FRENCH  09:32 Yes, that is a very kind way of putting it, Julie. But I will say this, the church probably saved my dad. It’s like, saved his life saved his soul saved my, because he got off the mountain and he and my mother started going to church. They took us to church three times a week. It was just very wonderful and Norman Rockwell ish, you would think, but under the  facade of that sweet small town, Southern church experience, there was a lot of abuse happening at my church. So I was abused by, there was one guy who was like a predator. And he abused 15 people in my church. I didn’t know about the other 14, I only knew about me. I only now know this in the process of writing the book, I figured this out. But I grew up sort of feeling isolated spiritually. And it made me feel differently about God. Previously, church was a cushion, the warm blanket, a place to lay your head. And then all of that was ripped away from me because of that abuse. And I became isolated and smoked cigarettes and painted my fingernails black and skipped church, and it just set me on a bad path.   Julie Roys  10:43 And you were 12 years old when that happened? .   10:46 That’s right. And the preacher was 10 years older.   Julie Roys  10:51 I read your book soon after I read Krista Browns book who of course, was sexually abused in her church as a child. I was actually stunned by the similarities between your story and her story. But I think that the thing that really struck me was the way that both of you internalized it. She internalized it, she called it an affair. How can you have an affair with your youth pastor when you’re an underage teen. You, similarly, you kind of took the guilt and shame on yourself.   11:27 I did. And I think this is common. This is like sort of an embarrassing book to write because it’s so I don’t know, like, actually, I shouldn’t even say that. I’m saying words that are shame full. Like I’m saying this is embarrassing, but I didn’t do anything wrong, right?   Julie Roys  11:45 No, you didn’t.   NANCY FRENCH  11:46 That’s what you think. And in the church with the purity culture sometimes, very well meaning poorly conceived theology. Which is, if you have a sexual sin, which by the way, you don’t, if you’re being abused, that’s not a sin, you’re not the one sinning. But if you’ve been compromised sexually, you’re ruined for the rest of your life. And I internalized that, and I thought that was right. And I also thought that this pastor, preacher, Vacation Bible School person, I thought he loved me, because I was 12. I didn’t know, I didn’t know anything about this. I just didn’t perceive it correctly. So I told myself the wrong story about this abuse almost my whole life. And so this book, though, there’s a lot more to it than just the abuse, obviously. This is me correcting the record for myself. But I wanted to do it publicly for all the people out there who feel guilty over stuff that they shouldn’t feel guilty over. And also, I became a complete mess after my abuse, and I wanted to show people that. Because what happens is you get embarrassed because you make a series of bad decisions and you look unsophisticated, you look immoral, you look like trash. And people will, they’ll look at you and they’ll say, that’s just trash, why are you listening to her? When in actuality, they should look at the damage that has been done to people in the church and repent about the way they’ve been handling abuse. And so I sort of wanted to put myself out there and say, Okay, y’all esteem me now, when I’m almost 50, because I’ve gotten my life together to the degree that I have, which I haven’t, but people esteem me. They don’t know about any of this. So I wanted to say, Okay, this is what it looks like, this is what I looked like. And I looked ridiculous. I was flailing, I was terrible in a lot of ways. You know, let’s talk about it.   Julie Roys  13:45 I think that’s so helpful. Because especially now when we have as public figures, you have a curated image, and it’s often so different than the real image, right? Although I really appreciate it, you have been so real, I think, especially as you’ve been walking through your cancer, the treatments and everything. I’ve so appreciated that. I appreciate that today, you forgot your wig. And so you’re just wearing whatever, and a lot of people would be like, Oh, I can’t go on. But I love that because that’s where all of us are. We like to pretend we’re not. But that’s where all of us are, at least at different points in our life. And so I just, I appreciate that. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening, who appreciate that as well. It didn’t end with the violence and the abuse didn’t end with that Pastor whose name was Conrad as I recall, but you had a boyfriend then, Jacob, who unbelievable. I mean, who this man turned out to be and you were trying to break it off from him forever. That did remind me of boyfriends I’ve tried to break it off with and you couldn’t. But talk about what happened with Jacob  and how that impacted you.   NANCY FRENCH  15:03 So I tried to find solace outside the church, meaning in boyfriends, and I made a series of terrible mistakes. And I dated this one guy, who eventually, I actually, Julie, double crossed him. I was cheating on him to let the record show that I was not innocent in this. But it was like I could not break up with him, I didn’t have the backbone to break up with him. And every time I tried, he threatened to commit suicide. And I realize now how terrible that is. I didn’t know it at the time. But in one very terrible moment, he revealed that he knew I had been cheating on him, and he tried to kill me. And so that was a pretty dramatic moment, he tried to strangle me, and it was bad. And boy number two, the guy that I was dating, actually came and rescued me from the situation at the very last second, very wonderful. So that boyfriend number two realized that I was cheating on him. And that I was in duress in the same moment. And he immediately pivoted to try to help me, and he did. I’m very thankful for that. But all of that was the pre-David French romance, which you can imagine when I met David French, who is so levelheaded and calm and good and mora., I wanted that. And that’s what I got. So David French sort of helped put me back on track. And, yeah, I’ll be forever grateful to him over that.   Julie Roys  16:35 Yeah, I was really struck by how big of a difference he made in your life. I mean, at this point,  you’re a victim of two assaults. You’re just absolutely reeling. You’re going to Lipscomb University, which is a Church of Christ school. Although I thought it was interesting that you could not even go to chapel. You knew, if you didn’t go to chapel, you’re going to lose your scholarship. But you call it the positive theology that you couldn’t stomach at that point. I think this is actually good for Christians to hear. Because it’s still there in a lot of churches where it’s very, well just describe what that was, and how that struck you as somebody who’s been through the kind of abuse that you have been through.   NANCY FRENCH  17:30 Yeah, I just had experienced so much. And then my best friend died. And in the same time period, and I was full of grief, though, I wasn’t even really properly processing. I wasn’t grieving the way you’re supposed to grieve. But I knew when I go into chapel, I was actually seeking answers, like, what do you do when you’re completely decimated by life? And the chapel speakers would be like, Hey, guys, we should be humble. Let me tell you about my little league game where I was pitching, and this happened. And I was just like, what is happening? This is so vacuous. I could not listen to this one more syllable. This is going to kill me. It felt like they were trying to kill me. And the reason why is because they didn’t have a doctrine of suffering. Right? Like I was really suffering. Not to mention the fact now that I realized that the Church of Christ leaders knew that I was being abused by this preacher and didn’t do anything. That’s a whole different level of stuff. The people at Lipscomb weren’t guilty of any of that. They were just nice people. And Lipscomb is really amazing. Like David works there. Now, David has always had a great experience there. But my experience there was I could not get down with this theology that I thought was vacuous. And it did not help. I needed help, like I need to help. I was suicidal, or something close to suicidal. So I needed help. And so those chapel talks were not going to cut it. And so I got called into the Dean of Students called me in and he was like, if you don’t go back to chapel, you’re losing everything. And I was like, I’ve lost everything. I don’t care. I never went back. But there’s something about this toxic positivity that I noticed with cancer, and here’s why. So whenever people find out that you have cancer immediately, they want to pray for your healing and for the cure. You have people at McDonald's stop and pray for your healing, which is very kind and sweet. But when I first got my diagnosis, my son, who’s a philosophy major, said there’s going to be beauty in this. Like, you have to keep your eyes open to see the beauty in this. And there’s, I have like, that was such an interesting, salient thing to say, because there’s so much to learn through disease and disability. Like looking like this. Like, I have no makeup on. I have no hair. In 1 million years would not have taken a picture and posted it to Facebook, let alone been on an interview with you a year ago looking like this. And I am so happy because I feel like, I don’t know, Julie, have maybe this is just me. I’m completely insecure. But I’m insecure my whole life. I’m almost 50 I’m insecure over the way I look. I’m insecure over cellulite, I’m over insecure over my weight, I’m insecure over my teeth that are equine looking. Like whatever you know. But what I’ll do as a ghostwriter, I’ll move in and help people write books about confidence. And so I was talking to my friend, Kim Gravelle, who has her own makeup line and fashion line on QVC. She’s a queen, amazing businesswoman. And we wrote a book called, Collecting Confidence, and I was talking to her, and she was like, you’re so confident I love seeing you. And I was like I faked all that. I completely faked all that. I can’t even imagine people who are confident, like I don’t even get that. But the cancer thing. Oh my gosh, it’s like it removed the vanity or something. And I don’t want to say vanity like it’s negative because we all you know, care what we look like, and it’s important. But I am not going to criticize my body again. I’m so thankful for it. And thankful for the way I look. I’m thankful for being bald because it allows me to connect with people in the most beautiful ways. Women who have cancer will send me pictures of their bald heads and they’re afraid to do it publicly. Some of them don’t even let their husbands see their bald heads. And so what I’m trying to do is normalize this, like this is okay, it’s okay to look like this. I probably won’t look like this forever. But it’s okay to look like this. And so when I’m doing my normal life, that’s not book promotion, typically, I just go bald. And people come up to me and they’re like, is this a fashion choice? Is this you know, like, what’s going on? Because I also tattooed my eyebrows on, because I’m not completely free of vanity. But anyway, it just opens up so much conversation and so whenever you’re faced with lament and grief and loss and abuse and death and disease and disability, you better have a doctrine of suffering. And you have to know how your faith intersects with that. And the good news is it intersects in a very beautiful way. With Christianity, we get back what we lose. It’s a beautiful thing. And I just love the fact that there’s so much truth and beauty even when we look like this. There’s still truth and beauty that we can tap into that is so much greater than my tattooed eyebrows, although on fleek.   Julie Roys  23:05 Well, I think you look beautiful, even with a bald head. But I love that. I absolutely love that. And I love that sometimes when we go through, I was telling somebody this recently that sometimes when we go through really horrific things, the things that used to scare us, the things that used to be so daunting, now we’re like, now that I’ve gone through this, like, go ahead, make my day. I’m not afraid anymore. And I do think it’s a wonderful like, I’ve never been through cancer, so I don’t want to even pretend that I know what that’s like. But yeah, I do hear what you’re saying and suffering for believers is redemptive; it’s always redemptive in some way. And I think you’re right that we don’t talk about it nearly enough in the church. I want to get back to David, because again, he made this huge, huge difference in your life. And I just thought it was so beautiful how you wrote about him. But he really, I mean, here you are an absolute wreck. And I love how when you met him like you confronted him, because he’s the one who convinced you to go to Lipscomb. And you’re like, thanks a lot, you know, and you kind of laid into him. And yet he responded in such a gracious way and within. I mean, I don’t know if it was a few hours or days like he had led you to the Lord.   NANCY FRENCH  24:27 Yeah, we had a very truncated experience dating, romantically and spiritually. He was sick. He had an incurable disease, which is a totally different story. So he was sick. We started dating, the second date, I realized I could marry this person. And then I think we were engaged within three months. I didn’t know him. He was like a complete stranger. But during that very brief amount of time he told me about Jesus. He was like he was telling me about the Holy Spirit because David French, New York Times columnist, was cured of an incurable disease,  Okay? And that was in 95. And I got to see that happen. He weighed 100 pounds when we were dating, he was so sick. And maybe 120 I don’t know; he lost a ton of weight. But I got to see this miracle happen. And I didn’t believe in miracles. I didn’t believe in any of it. So he was telling me about that. And I was like, wow, I think I might need to know about whatever it is that you know about. And so he used CS Lewis to talk me through the Lord, lunatic or liar, those three options. And for those listening, CS Lewis was basically like, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Was he telling the truth? Was he insane? Or was he just lying? And I could not bring myself to say that Jesus Christ was lying. I just couldn’t. And so the only thing and I didn’t think he was a lunatic. So I was like, you know, I think Jesus was telling the truth. And that small thing changed my life, because I believed and David helped me believe, and it was very beautiful. So I write about that in the book.   Julie Roys  26:11 Yeah. Lord, liar, lunatic. It’s a powerful argument. So simple, but so powerful. And yet a lot of people just have never, they’ve never thought deeply about it. And then you guys got married, in Paris, which is great. I won’t go into it because we don’t have time. But that was a great, great story. You moved to Manhattan. And then you, this hit me in a probably a different way than it would normally because I kind of lean charismatic. So I’m open to charismatic things, even though I would say, I grew up, my dad was a surgeon. So we were always, if you thought you were sick, it was kind of like, prove it. It was everything a little bit skeptical. And, as a journalist, we tend to be pretty skeptical too. But I read this about your encounter with a prophet. It was I guess; it was like a reunion of the Harvard Christian group that David had been a part of. And well, you were skeptical too. So tell about that experience, because it really is pretty mind blowing.   NANCY FRENCH  27:23 Craziest story. I became a Christian. I have one inch of theological belief, which is I believe Jesus Christ is Lord, all in You. And the Harvard Law School Christian fellowship was having a reunion. And we went, and by the way, I don’t want to go hang out with a bunch of people who graduated from Harvard, right? Because, a three-time college dropout. I don’t want to hang out with these people. I’m intimidated. Everybody is so smart. And also, when you grow up in the way that I grew up, you’re taught that people who believe in the Holy Spirit and Pentecostals or charismatics are low class, they’re unsophisticated, they’re not smart. They’re given to emotion. So here I am going into the Harvard Law School Christian Fellowship. So they’re smarter than I am. They get paid a lot of money to evaluate documents, and the Bible is a document. And David was like, Yeah, I think they invited a prophet, and I was like, What is a prophet? Is this like a psychic? Like I don’t have a category for this. And so we go to the thing, and I was apprehensive because, Julie, I don’t know if this is a sign of a guilty conscience. 100% It is. But if you talk to a prophet, I was thinking that he would say, Well, you don’t read your Bible. You don’t pray, your main to whatever, you know, like whatever you kick the dog, whatever, like he could read my mail. So I didn’t want to talk to a prophet either. So anyway, we go to the thing. Gary has on a Hawaiian shirt. He’s smelly, he has a hairy belly, and I can see the bottom of it. It’s insane. I’m like, okay, so this is Gary the Prophet. Okay, whatever. So Gary the Prophet, y’all gotta read this, it’s the craziest thing that ever happened. But he goes to the people at the Harvard Law School Christian Fellowship, and I thought he would say to Harvard Law people, Oh, you struggle with pride? Or oh, I don’t know, you’ve got so much intelligence. I don’t know what you’d say to Harvard people. I’m not a Harvard person, as you can tell. But that’s not what he did. He went around the room and read to like, spoke into their lives. So for example, I don’t know if you know Shaunti Feldheim. She’s a Christian. Shaunti was there, and her husband Jack, and I use their names in the book. And later I was like, Hey, I used your name in the book with this crazy thing because they were there and they had this crappy car that Shaunti and Jeff, like, they were the only people in New York City who had the car of our friend group. So they were very nice to let us use the car, but it was a freaking jalopy, and they were always in fights over it. And so, but Gary looked at Jeff and Shaunti and spoke to them about this car. And I was like, what? So you got a chance to talk to a prophet. He’s giving you automobile advice, that’s weird. And then he went to other people, and he talked to another friend who secretly had written poetry and he said, “You know the poetry right secretly? It’s time to do this was like literary advice. I was like, what is happening, Gary the Prophet? So then Gary the prophet looked at me, and he was like you, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is gonna be so bad. And he called me up. And he told me, he said, you’re pregnant. And I was like, No, I’m not. Julie, this is TMI, but this is what’s happening. I was on my period, and I told him that, and he looked at me, I said, it is impossible, because I wanted everyone in this Harvard Law School Christian fellowship to realize they’ve been duped by a con man. And so I was like, defiant, like, No, I’m on my period. I’m not pregnant. And he just laughed at me. And he was like, with God, all things are possible. But this is what you need to know, you are pregnant, you are carrying a girl, she’s going to come this year, she’s going to have physical problems, here is five Bible verses that you need to know. When they tell you that you’re aborting, don’t believe it, you’re gonna have a healthy baby. And all is gonna be well just remember these words. And I was like, okay, Gary, the Prophet. This is weird because I wasn’t pregnant, right? But he scared me to death. So I go home, and my period stops. And I think, you know, this is weird. I think he’s scared me into not having a period. Gary the prophet is the worst prophet ever. And then later, though, like I took a pregnancy test, and I was pregnant. Apparently, the bleeding that I thought was my period was implantation. And Gary the prophet knew this. And lo and behold, a few months later, the doctor calls and he says, “You are miscarrying. You’re aborting call off the parties. But they gave me a due date in January. I knew that wasn’t the case, because he said that she was going to come this year, and I also knew the gender. So talking about gender reveal party, Gary the Prophet, you did not need that. And Camille was born. And she’s amazing. And right now this second, she’s 13 floors up. She’s got two of my grandchildren, that she’s given birth to; cute, wonderful, beautiful kids. And we’ve seen God’s hand in Camille’s life and all of our lives in such dramatic ways. And that cured me of being skeptical of the Holy Spirit. My book is called Ghosted, not just because I’m a celebrity ghostwriter, or because vast friend groups have ghosted me for my political decisions. But also I wanted it to encourage people to really consider the Holy Ghost, to consider God, because He will not let you down even though everyone else will.   Julie Roys  33:03 I never said why I’m a little more skeptical than I used to be. And it’s because of what’s happening at the International House of Prayer. Just, and of course, I mean, this is the umpteenth. I don’t know how many scandals I’ve covered since I’ve started The Roys Report. I mean, it’s just been one after another after another. But this particular one, I think is especially gross, because prophecy was used to manipulate and then abuse women. And then we have this prophetic history that now some of the key facts in it have been debunked. And it just seems like it was used in such a manipulative way. And so I’m trying to figure out why God? Like why do you even like, is that real? Like when people get because I remember, I used to be in the Vineyard, and I remember hearing stories, and I remember miraculous things happening. And then you go to a church where they don’t expect that to happen, and guess what? It doesn’t, you know, kind of like the Holy Spirit doesn’t work in ways that our faith doesn’t allow it to, sometimes, but it was good for me to hear it.   NANCY FRENCH  34:17 I think that’s a very interesting point. And it’s important to say it, because the charismatic church has really, really messed up with this Donald Trump prophecy stuff.   Julie Roys  34:29 Oh, my goodness, yeah.   NANCY FRENCH  34:31 They’ve gone off the rails. And so what do you do like if you’re a Christian person, and this is not just for charismatic people or Pentecostal people, but all white evangelicals who are going to church where the egregious evil is overlooked because of political positions? What do you do? And so that’s the thing I don’t I don’t even go to a Pentecostal church. I just really believe that there’s a lot of counterfeit stuff happening, with all these prophecies, political prophecies. But if it’s counterfeit, that indicates there’s something true. Right? So it’s a mimicry of something good. And so I would just encourage, I don’t know how to do it. I’m not doing church right. I’m completely a mess; I’m hanging on to Christianity by my freaking fingernails. And ever since I got the cancer diagnosis, I can’t really go to church, I’ve gone like twice in seven months. However, I feel so warmly towards God. And I feel like he’s got me. In spite of all of this, I just feel so thankful to God. And I don’t understand God. So when I wrote this book, one of my intentions was to never be invited by a church to come speak on the book at a church. And I think I probably pulled that off, the invitations are not rolling in Julie. And that’s because I don’t understand God. So I’m just telling you the truth. This is what happened to me, there was a guy named Gary, and he had a hairy belly, and a Hawaiian shirt. And he was completely right about the trajectory of my life. And we recorded it because he said, If I’m a false prophet, you’ll be able to say that I’m a false prophet. I’m recording everything I say to you. And there’s some things that haven’t happened yet that I 100% know are going to happen in our lives. Then David and I joke about it all the time because it’s just so crazy. But it feels crazy. But it happened, and I’ve got a kid upstairs, who is alive. And so many things like that happen. And sometimes things happen that you don’t get that aren’t as uplifting, that God acts in ways that are baffling and confusing. And I included those stories too. Because I just wanted the reader to be able to say, Okay, this is what my life looks like, because I wrangle with God and wrestle with God. What does yours look like? Is it as nuts as this? And I just think it is, I think we’re just too sophisticated to talk about it. But I think people have interactions with God all the time. And I want to normalize talking about that.   Julie Roys  37:10 And when I was in Vineyard, their tagline used to be to make the supernatural natural. And I did love tha.t I loved lots of things about my Vineyard experience. I know they’re going through some really, very difficult times right now. But yeah, it was very positive for me in many ways. And I appreciate that. And I appreciate just the fact that I read Scripture differently now, whereas I used to skip over oh my gosh, they raised the dead. You know, like that was normal for the disciples like what does that mean to us today? But it’s challenging.   NANCY FRENCH  37:42 Yeah. Or what does it mean when Paul says just eagerly seek these gifts of the Holy Spirit? Do it just do it, just believe the Bible and do it. And one of the things is church is so nuts right now. It makes you feel like you don’t have a spiritual home. Like, actually, like, I do not have a spiritual home, I’ve been projectile vomited out of like the church.   Julie Roys  38:05 I can relate to this. So yeah.   NANCY FRENCH  38:08 if you can just like divorce yourself from the people who are angry at you for whatever reasons, and just sort of settle into your relationship with God. I don’t think we should forsake the church or the gathering of our friends and saints and all that. I don’t know how to do it. It is a very difficult time. And so I wrote this book for other people who feel politically, culturally, or spiritually homeless. And I’m just sort of like reaching out my hand and saying, Hey, do y’all, this is weird, what’s going on? Do y’all feel weird about this? Anyway, we can be weird together, we can be alone together. And that’s what I hoped the book sort of encapsulated.   Julie Roys  38:47 I loved your story of how you became a ghost writer, which is kind of amazing. You’re a college dropout. And all of a sudden you’re writing for all these stars. A lot of people don’t know that you’re writing the book because you’re a ghost. But you end up writing and I didn’t realize you wrote this book Bristol Palin’s book when she got pregnant. For people, you know, who aren’t familiar with this, although most of us I would guess, that are listening. Or it wasn’t that long ago. Sarah Palin became the vice-presidential candidate. And of course, she’s a conservative, Christian conservative, very traditional values, and then it comes out uh-oh, her daughter Bristol is pregnant out of wedlock. Although it wasn’t really what I think everybody probably assumed at the time. Talk about that experience of writing that book with Bristol, but also of the reception that book got when you published it.   NANCY FRENCH  39:44 Yeah, so I grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh and knowing without a shadow of a doubt that Democrats were sexual predators, or at least for pretty still with them. Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, give me a freaking break. So I was like, okay, So that’s the party. I do not want to have anything to do with. Democrats do not care about women. So I go to Alaska, I live with the Palins, I meet Bristol. Her story is told beautifully in her book. And I’ll let her tell her own story. But I was shocked when I got up there. Because what I thought was true was not true about the Palins. And I love Bristol Palin, she is courageous. She has a backbone, and she is a fighter for what is right. During that very tumultuous time when she got pregnant out of wedlock, she really rose to the occasion and she’s an amazing mother. And I love her so much. But what I learned when I got there, I said to her Bristol, we need to really talk about this baby shower that you had and she goes, I didn’t have a baby shower. And I was like, Yes, you did. I’ve got pictures. Look, your kid has this camouflage onesie. And she was like, Nancy, that is photoshopped. What is wrong with like, it’s so obviously photoshopped. I didn’t know because I was new to the world of lies and deception. But then when Bristol told me her story, how she lost her virginity. She goes, it wasn’t really lost. It was stolen. And I was like, oh, okay, what? I was completely floored by that because all of the media coverage was mocking her. And so when we published this in the book, I thought everybody would be like, my bad. I write for The Washington Post, or I write for the New York Times, or I write for this thing. And we mocked her for what essentially was a sex crime. She was a victim. And we’re sorry about that. That’s not what happened. People continue to mock her. They continue to make fun of her. And what that told me at the time was Democrats do not care about women, unless you’re a certain type of woman. Now, later, fast forward five freakin minutes, and here we are. The GOP standard bearer is someone who has been held criminally accountable for rape in court, much more so than Bill Clinton. And we’ve embraced this guy. So this is my trajectory. It has been one of confusion. I don’t feel like I’ve changed. I feel like you could believe that Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy were sexual predators or had sexual problems, obviously, without you can believe that and also look at people in your own tribe, can say the same things. You can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can just decide to be against sexual predation generally, across the board. It’s pretty easy if you make these decisions. But that’s not what we do. What we do is, oh, Harvey Weinstein. Yes. Well, that’s how Hollywood is, you know, Hollywood, they’re godless. Or the Catholics, for sure the Catholics have a problem. And then you find out oh, is the Baptist, oh it's the deacon Oh, it’s Kanakuk camps in Branson, Missouri. And it’s like, you don’t want to embrace that you’re just like, Nope. A part of my identity is that I’m a part of the good guys, I belong to the good tribe. And that was mine, too. I firmly believed that, that I was on the side of good, but then I wasn't, and I was guilty of mischaracterizing my liberal neighbor and trying to fight for my tribe over truth. And anyway, my book is sort of like unpacking that, it is not chastising the reader. It’s chastising myself because I got too much into the scoring of political points occupationally. And I realized that was not kind of me. God didn’t give me my writing talent for me to disparage my neighbor and to bear false witness. And so that’s what I was doing. And when I decided not to lie, or bear false witness, I was unemployable. I was as popular as head lice. So we used to be super popular in certain circles. And then, you know, nobody wants anything to do with us now.   Julie Roys  44:02 Yeah, yeah. It’s amazing. 2015 You guys were like the darlings of the GOP. I mean, David had gotten  awarded the Ronald Reagan award from CPAC, you know, the Conservative Political Action Conference. I mean, you guys were like, you were the quintessential Christian conservatives. And I think that’s when I was introduced to you. I was working at Moody at the time. And so I was doing a lot of commentaries and it’s amazing to me, I look back and I’m like, I had everything figured out then. Wow. It’s so funny, because I don’t now, but then I did. But I was very right. I was very conservative. And I could spout all of the political reasons why the Conservatives were right. And then all of a sudden, I couldn’t, I don’t think I changed. I don’t think I changed either. I was just absolutely shocked at who my Christian conservative neighbors were. Like, because I had supporters who were furious at me because I spoke out against Trump and stopped supporting me. And I’m like, Who did you think I was? Like, how can you support this man? I have not changed. I thought we were the party that cared about values. And they didn’t. Clearly we cared more about power, we cared more about position. But I have kind of thought, in my role as an investigative reporter in this space, where I call out Christians, and people often don’t want to hear, as you know, the scandals and what’s really going on. And so I thought, I got a lot of hate mail and pushback. Compared to what you and David have been through, I mean, that gave me like a whole new perspective, the personal nature of what was done to you. Especially regarding I know you have a daughter that you have adopted from Ethiopia. The amount of cruelty and this is where I’m like, that whole compassionate conservative thing. I was like, where are they? Talk about what happened to you when again, you simply stuck to your guns, and you spoke out, you spoke out what was true about Donald Trump. What happened?   NANCY FRENCH  46:28 So chaos. We’re big fans of Hamilton, and we are always like chaos and bloodshed. If you know that songs chaos and bloodshed are not the solution. But that’s what ensued. So I wrote a 2016 article in the Washington Post about my own sexual abuse and how I was begging the GOP to consider sexual abuse victims, because we were not about this. Imagine if you’re me, and you grow up believing Bill Clinton is rapist. The Democrats don’t care about women. The GOP is the party of family values. We care about children, all this stuff. Imagine if you’re that, and then they show up and they’re like, Hey, this is the guy that you can vote for. His name is Donald Trump, he grabs women by the genitals. It’s fine. Just, it’s great.   Julie Roys  47:17 Just locker room talk. Yeah.   47:19 And you’re just like, I don’t think I can do this. Is there a problem? So I wrote this article, I talked about my sex abuse for the first time. And I had not even told my counselor about my sexual abuse, I could not even articulate it. So it wasn’t like I had gotten to the point of spiritual maturity and emotional health, and I was finally deciding to make a case in the Washington Post. I had not even told my counselor; I could not even say it. But I went ahead and published this in the Washington Post, and it was a story of my abuse. And my counselor was like, Okay, I think we can work with this. But  this is potentially emotionally problematic, which it was, because I just laid my soul bare. I was like, guys, please. But then after I did that, there were some conservatives, prominent conservatives who were like, oh, Nancy French is just using her personal story to make a political point. And then later, when I would make any sort of statement about politics, these people would say things like, just because Nancy French seduced her pastor doesn’t mean that she should be able to speak about the Supreme Court or something like that.   Julie Roys  48:27 It’s infuriating. It’s infuriating, unbelievable.   NANCY FRENCH  48:30 I’ve never heard anything more evil than this; where you take the victim of pedophilia and say that they seduced a pastor. It’s so sinister. But these are people who y’all read, like, people read these writers, they’re associated with sort of legitimate magazines. I don’t know. I don’t read them. And they make fun of us. They make fun of our adopted daughter because she’s black. They say I had sex with men while my husband was deployed. And that’s how we got this baby. Not through adoption. And then for a time, they put fake-like photoshopped porn of me having sex with black men online and they would photoshop David’s face looking through the window at it, and they called him a cock-servative and obviously, he’s raising the enemy because we have a black child. So all black people are enemy. The evil that came at us with such a flood of evil. I could not even I still cannot even process it. That was all because we decided not to vote for Trump. So I mean, it’s like, I don’t wish it on my worst enemy.   Julie Roys  49:52 It’s unbelievable. It really is. And this is where, like you said, people continue to read some of these people. You call names in the book. You’re not doing it right now, that’s okay. But you can read the book. And you should.   NANCY FRENCH  50:03 Yeah, they’re so inconsequential to me. I was like, should I say their names or not? Because I don’t even like, I don’t even know what they look like. Like, I’m so not dialed in to whatever their thing is. So, you have this thing you’re like, should I elevate them by actually using their names? Or should I protect them? Because surely to goodness, in five minutes, they’re gonna realize they’re on the wrong side of this issue. You know, like, I feel bad for them. I don’t know what their deal is, or why they’re so obsessed with trying to attack victims of sex abuse. But it’s not like this is an anomaly. It’s not like the church otherwise really has it going on in terms of protecting children and women. So, anyway, yeah. So it’s hard to know what to do with these people. And I probably, I vacillated between wanting to name names and score settle. And I just decided not to do that generally, just because I think this story is important, the story is good in and of itself. And these people they’re not. They’re just tokens. They’re just indicative of the things that I wanted to talk about. And I wish them all the best. I hope all of us are progressing politically and spiritually and culturally, to the point where we get better. I feel like I’ve gotten better. And I know we all can, so I don’t even have animus toward them. But they really are on the wrong side of this.   Julie Roys  51:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I should say you name some names, but you do leave quite a few out. Although, if you put some things together, you can probably figure out who they are. But it is shocking what Christians are okay with and what I think this whole crazy political polarization has shown. And it’s been disorienting for a number of us Christians, I think, who are very surprised by it. For you, it cost you your job, your livelihood, essentially. I mean, you’re a ghostwriter, all of your clients were conservatives. We didn’t talk about it, but folks that you have to get the book and read the story about Mitt Romney and when you worked for Mitt Romney and the skiing story, I was laughing out loud. Oh, my gosh, I was laughing so hard.   NANCY FRENCH  52:33 I did include some anecdotes that do not reflect well on my virtue. There is a warning here.   Julie Roys  52:38 Oh that one! Yeah. Again, I’m just gonna tease that one. Because people have to read the book to read that one. And it’s hysterical. But  here you are. You’re basically an unemployed ghostwriter. And Gretchen Carlson comes to you and  tells you about an investigation you can do. It takes you like better part of a year, and you get paid like a big goose egg for it, like nothing. Which I have to, it reminds me of when I got fired at Moody, because that’s when I started investigating Harvest Bible Chapel and James McDonald. And I think that year, I did get paid for that article. But that’s like, the only thing that I wrote for any other publication because I wrote it for World Magazine. But I think I came out ahead when I did, the income minus like, expenses. I made $300 that year. I know. It was fantastic. But  it was that kind of years, I could really relate to all of a sudden, you get this story just dropped on your lap, you tried to get other people to write it, and nobody did. And so you’re faced with this responsibility. And I know this all too well, where you know, a story. You know, I went to journalism school, you didn’t even go to journalism school. You’re a very good writer, an excellent writer. And I think you have obviously excellent investigation skills. And although you had to develop some of I mean, you just went out and you just began investigating this. And you get yourself in so deep that you realize, oh, my goodness, I gotta publish this, right? I’ve got to do something. So talk about it. This was Kanakuk camp, the largest Christian camp, and you find out there is widespread, like over decades, sexual abuse going on. It’s known, and yet, nobody has been held responsible, other than the actual abuser.   NANCY FRENCH  53:34 That’s a lot! Yeah. And you’re being very kind in your description of this. So like, literally, I tried to get everybody to cover this. And I don’t even have a degree period, let alone a journalism degree. And when I realized that I had to be the one to do this because I’m almost 50 years old and I’m a grown person who knows about the abuse. When I realized that and this is after losing my job and being fired, either being fired by or quitting all of my gigs and no money.   Julie Roys  55:13 That’s how we become investigative journalists. We get fired and nothing else you can do.   NANCY FRENCH  55:18 Nothing else you can do. I Googled, what does off the record mean? I didn’t know that there were layers of that, you know this, you’re laughing. It’s so crazy. There’s like no background, anyway. So I googled that. That’s how I started my investigation. It was three years of just angst and agony. And I didn’t have anyone to help because I’m just myself. I really needed a team of like five people or something. But I worked around the clock for three years, and I proved everything that I wanted to prove basically. I only published like 3% of what I know. But yeah, there was a bad guy at Kanakuk camps. He was there. His name is Pete Newman, he abused an estimated hundreds of male campers, several of whom have died via suicide. We still get tips over these deaths. So anyway, awful. But the thing that I uncovered was that Kanakuk camps and its CEO Joe White, they received 10 years of Red Flag Warnings. So they knew for 10 years that this bad guy was convincing campers to disrobe and to be completely nude. He played basketball nude with them; he was on four wheelers nude with them. Which by the way, absolutely disgusting. Just that fact visualizing that they knew that. They knew that parents complained, one camper saw Pete Newman abusing another camper. And they told the Female Camper who was the witness that they didn’t think she was Christian enough to go to the camp. So Pete Newman is in jail. But all of the people who allowed this abuse to happen, they’re still running the camp to this day, nobody’s resigned, nobody’s been fired. The same people. And there’s 25,000 kids who go there per summer. So that’s why I’m so alarmed by it. If you Google Kanakuk, almost everything written about it is me, regrettably. It's  out there, and you can read about it. So I would encourage people and parents just to become aware of that. The reason I’m so sad and despondent over the issue is that I proved everything and the church, their reaction was laconic, is that the right word? I don’t even know what that means. They were not as alarmed as I thought they should be.   Julie Roys  57:38 Apathetic for sure. I mean, they just didn’t care. It’s callous. I mean, I have had investigations that turned out great. Like James McDonald, Harvest Bible Chapel. He got fired, all the elders stepped down. The Ravi Zacharias investigation, I think, pretty much it’s well established. But most of Christendom now realizes he was a sexual predator. John MacArthur, I don’t know what more I could have proved. I really don’t. And it’s been shocking to me that conservative, you know, pundits like Megan Basham still to this day, you know, will defend John MacArthur and I’m like, have you read this? I mean, we have so much documentation. We have video evidence. I mean, we have handwritten letters from him telling the teenage girl whose father molested her that she should forgive him and that he’ll stay on staff, and we know he stayed on staff three more years and then went on to pastor for decades more. And John MacArthur did nothing. It drives you absolutely insane. And you think what on earth is the matter with people? Like what is wrong with you? Nothing has been done to John MacArthur. Nothing has been done to Joe White. Christians continue to just send their kids to a camp where clearly they’re not being protected. How do you come to terms with this, Nancy?   NANCY FRENCH  59:01 I don’t. I’m so depressed. I’ve been in a bad mood for many years. To be completely honest, I don’t know how to resolve it. I’m so depressed over it. And then the Kanakuk investigation dropped like a few days after the SBC was revealed to have all these sexual predators in a database conveniently tracking all the sexual predators and keeping them from the cops. I have no answers and I have decided that I cannot be responsible for the church and their collective inaction on this. That I am not responsible. I cannot exact justice. I just can’t. I am standing on the side of the road with this giant sign over my head saying, justice is coming. Justice is important. One day this will be better. It is not today. But I’ve just decided I’m just going to talk about it. People make fun of me because I’m a one-note song. If you follow me on Twitter or on any of the social media channels, I’m like, Hey, guys, today in Kanakuk saga number 550 million, I’m talking about this, because I have so much information. I published, like 3% of what I know. And so I just want to warn parents and I have, and so I feel comfortable with that. I will not stop talking about it. Lawsuits have been filed based on my investigative work, what I was able to uncover, and I trust lawyers more than I trust the actions of the church in terms of holding people accountable, which, you know, is sad. But I am thankful for attorneys and for brave victims and survivors speaking out. So I’m very thankful. But it took me a long time to get to that point and, I’m not okay with it. I’m sad and depressed. I’m sad about the Christian celebrities who are associated with Kanakuk camps, who won’t speak out. I’m sad about the parents who send their kids to Kanakuk camps. And I’m sad just for all the grieving families who’ve lost family members because of this abuse, it’s awful. And I’m so inspired by the families who choose to say that their loved one who died via suicide,  was a victim at Kanakuk camps. A brave family in Texas did that first and that started all of it.   Julie Roys  1:01:26 Well, you’ve done a Herculean task by digging into that, and if you want a place to publish, you know, the other 97%. If you get well enough, we would love to publish it. I know we published. I mean, based on your research, really, we’ve sort of rewritten some of this stuff, but it’s really well done, really well documented, and you’ve done a service for the church. And you’ve warned people. I figure that’s all we can do, is we can warn people, and then what people do with it, at the end of the day, we have to you’re right, we have to let that go. Because that’s in God’s hands. And we did our job. We warned them, we told them the truth, but it is frustrating. You said, There’s a quote that I just want to read of yours. It’s so good. And I so related to it. You said throughout my life, I desperately wanted to identify the good people and the bad people. So I could walk more confidently among them. Befriending the good ones avoiding the bad ones. I categorized people into tribes, according to their political views, their church attendance, and their voting patterns. But this line was fuzzier than I’d originally believed. I feel that the people we thought were the good guys aren’t necessarily the good guys. I still hold on to my faith, I still have the same convictions. I hold them differently now. I hold them differently. And I think there’s an openness to people that I wouldn’t necessarily be open to before. But talk about where you’re at now with kind of maybe seeing a little more gray than you did before or good, where you made might have seen bad and how you’re processing that?   NANCY FRENCH  1:03:22 Well, I mean, probably the most interesting and honest answer is I realized how that the line separating good and evil runs through my own heart, as Alexander Solzhenitsyn said. And I was guilty of a bunch of stuff. I was politically acrimonious; I was mean to my Democrat neighbors. Mean meaning in my rhetoric. Like I help people own the LIBS or whatever. But I think there’s something very beautiful about aging, I’m almost 50. I do not care about my brand management. For all of you listening, I am not one of the good guys on the good side of the line, and I do all this stuff right. I do some things right. Probably hold a lot of beliefs that I won’t hold in 10 years, hopefully, because you know, you change and you get better and you want to allow space for you to get better, for your party to get better, for your church to get better. I think it’s interesting how you say you hold your beliefs differently. I am just so thankful for being able to not protect your brand. To the church. You’re not God’s PR branch. He doesn’t need you. He doesn’t need you in terms of his marketing. You can embrace the truth of whatever is uncomfortable, and you can talk about it without damaging the gospel, without damaging the church. In fact, you’re protecting the church when you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting children. When you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting women when you’re calling out evil, you’re protecting men. And so you don’t have to say like, oh, well, I’m a Christian, so therefore, I cannot criticize anything that is happening in the church. In fact, that’s biblically the opposite of what we are actually commanded to do. And so I have been guilty of being politically acrimonious and uncharitable towards my neighbor, not protecting the reputations of my neighbor. And I changed. And so I fully believe all of us can change. But that’s not to say that I’m the arbiter of all that is good. And now these people are bad, but it’s just all mixed up. And I feel like we have such capacity for both good and evil. And there’s part of you that is sort of like sobered by that. And then part of me is like, liberated. It’s like, okay, well, that explains a lot. That’s why I’m so petty. That’s why I yell at the kids when I don’t mean to, that’s when I get frus

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/ok7qRXGZYroFor nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn't back down. And on this edition of The Roys Report, you'll hear her story. Joining host Julie Roys is Christa Brown, an abuse survivor who overcame the odds in pursuit of justice. As a 16-year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her never to speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belonged to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence—and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing. But instead, they attacked her. That began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention—and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. She recounts it all in detail in her just released memoir, Baptistland. Christa found her voice, rising above her past trauma to become a leading voice in the national and global abuse survivor community. She speaks with unrelenting honesty about the patterns of abuse in evangelical churches—and the necessary steps to bring reform. Guests Christa Brown Named as one of the "top 10 religion newsmakers" of 2022, Christa Brown has persisted for two decades in working to peel back the truth about clergy sex abuse and coverups in the nation's largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptist Convention. As one of the first to go public with substantiated child molestation allegations against a Baptist minister—and documentation that others knew—she has consistently demanded reforms to make other kids and congregants safer. She is the author of Baptistland and This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang. Christa, who is retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma, lives with her husband in Colorado. Show Transcript SPEAKERSCHRISTA BROWN, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04For nearly two decades, one woman stood up to the Southern Baptist Convention, forcing it to face its sex abuse crisis. She was gaslit, maligned, and threatened with legal action. But she didn’t back down and on this podcast, you’ll hear her story. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Christa Brown, someone who’s become a sort of legend in the abuse survivor community. As a 16- year-old girl, Christa was repeatedly raped by the youth pastor at her Southern Baptist Church. And when she told the music minister at her church what had happened, he told her to never speak of it. For 35 years, Christa kept silent, accepting the shame that rightly belongs to her rapist. But in the early 2000s, Christa broke her silence and confronted her childhood church with what had happened. She thought they would do the right thing, but instead, they attacked her. And that began a nearly 20-year battle with the Southern Baptist Convention and led to two major investigations, showing that hundreds of Baptist leaders and volunteers had sexually abused congregants. Joining me is Christa Brown, someone who for decades fought to expose sex abuse and cover up within the Southern Baptist Convention. She has been dubbed the mother of all abuse bloggers, and also is named by the Religion News Association as one of the top 10 religion newsmakers of 2022. She’s also a retired appellate attorney, a mom, and a grandma. So Christa, welcome. It is such a privilege to have you on this podcast.   CHRISTA BROWN  03:22 Thank you, Julie, I really appreciate it. I’m so glad to be with you.   Julie Roys  03:26 And you’re kind of like a legend. I don’t know if you recognize this, but you have been at this a very, very long time and the persistence that you have had to expose what’s been going on within the Southern Baptist Convention, it didn’t just happen to you, it happened to so so many women and men who have been victims. And so just as somebody who’s been in this space for a really long time, not nearly as long as you, I just really appreciate your work. So thank you.   CHRISTA BROWN  04:16 Thanks. And of course, this is something that is still continuing to happen too.   Julie Roys  04:21 That’s true. So I just finished your book, Baptistland, and really emotionally, still wrestling to come to terms  with everything I read. I think there were several things that really struck me from your book. Of course, the horror of the sex abuse that you had at the hands of your own youth pastor, somebody that you trusted, and the spiritual abuse involved in that was just absolutely horrific. But I think too, the abuse within your own family and the psychological and emotional abuse that was there and kind of how that conditioned you for the abuse and to kind of keep secrets. And so it kind of contributed to everything that happened. But I think lastly, was your resiliency, which is amazing in the face of what you encountered, your resiliency. And I don’t know how you did that. I mean, what do you attribute the resiliency that you’ve had to overcome so many hurdles in your life?   CHRISTA BROWN  05:26 I don’t know. In part, I think I’m a little stubborn by nature. I think that is there. In part, I think I had the enormous good fortune to encounter a wonderful husband and wonderful spouse, who has been nothing but supportive. And I think, when someone has that kind of support in their life, I mean, that came, of course, later as an adult, but that too, of course, has just been an enormous source of stability for me. So yeah, I’ve had those things. And in that sense, I’ve been very, very fortunate.   Julie Roys  06:10 If someone has just even one person in their life that’s advocating for them, that’s behind them, it makes a huge difference. And I know my spouse has been with me 100% in the work I’ve done as well. And I credit him for a lot of what I’ve been able to do as well. So I can relate to that.   CHRISTA BROWN  06:28 Yeah. I mean, he’s a behind-the-scenes kind of guy. No one knows my husband, but he is very much there for me.   Julie Roys  06:38  You divide your memoir into four different deaths, as you call them. And of course, there’s an element of resurrection and all of that, too. But your deaths start, the very first death that you write about is the abuse that you suffered by, again, your own youth pastor. But as I mentioned, there was some dysfunction in your own home, that kind of conditioned you to be able to have this abuse, and maybe to keep it quiet. Would you talk a little bit about that, the home situation that conditioned you to stay quiet about the abuse?   CHRISTA BROWN  07:19 Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the sort of home that it’s like, we all pretend we’re happy. What happened didn’t happen. And when someone blows up and throws plates across the wall, we clean it up, and we act like nothing ever happened. When my father explodes, we all just go on. My father had serious PTSD problems, but back then, we would not have even had that acronym PTSD, we didn’t know what to call it. We just all, as with many families across America, when war veterans come home, we all just do the best we can. But that very dynamic of never talking about it, and just always putting you in the background and moving on, conditioned me to keep quiet and to not talk about things in the family. We did not talk about the family with outsiders. That was for sure. And so all of that, I think is part of what conditioned me. Then when I was abused by the pastor, why would I talk about it? I had no experience in talking about anything troubling in my life, None. What was normal was never to talk about things. And I hope people will see that because of course, that’s one of the very common questions that people often ask, Well, why didn’t you tell someone sooner? Why didn’t you talk about it? I hope people will see in my book, the only rational question is, why would she have ever talked about it? And then, of course, the fact that I did try with a couple people and that only made things worse.   Julie Roys  09:08 Yeah. And there was also this element of spiritual abuse, which honestly, when I was reading your book, and I’ve heard a lot of spiritual abuse, but I would say this was almost just so wicked, because in your case, you were so trusting, you had such a childlike faith in God. And he just completely exploited that. Would you talk about the spiritual abuse and how that how that really gave him power over you?   CHRISTA BROWN  09:40 Oh, it gave him enormous power. And I hope people will see that the enormous power that earnest that a person’s faith can hold when it is weaponized against them, because that is what gave him power. I mean, I think there are many people who would wish to believe that this happens to kids who are in some way, oh, morally lacks or they want to blame the kid for some reason, that the reality is what made me vulnerable? What made me a target? What made me easy prey? was the very fact that I love God so much. My faith was earnest and pure and that is precisely what was weaponized against me literally. I was raised from toddlerhood to believe that you trust these men who carry the voice of God, that they are men and God. In the framework I held in my mind at that time., there was no other possibility other than to obey.   Julie Roys  11:00 You know, it’s interesting, because I just had a conversation with my daughter this morning. And I feel kind of bad sometimes because of the work that I’m in, that they’re exposed to the evil of it. But at the same time, I realized this morning, as we were talking about some things, she knows to be skeptical, that trust is earned. I don’t care what title someone holds. She knows that you still need to know that this person may not be trustworthy, you need to watch them over time. But I think especially in our generation growing up. I mean, I never would have dreamed that a pastor could be involved in any kind of wrongdoing. It just wasn’t in my worldview. So I totally get that. And the other thing is, and this is probably the most wicked is the way that he made you feel then that you are somehow evil because you had participated in this and even did like an exorcism on you or something, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  12:05 Yes. After this had gone on for months and months, seven, eight months. And it escalated, of course, and got worse. And then toward the end, he began to tell me that I had harbored Satan. And I was a temptress. And finally, then he called me into his office one day and made me kneel. While he, with one hand on my shoulder and one hand raised, stood over me as I was kneeling, praying on and on for God to cast Satan from me. But as a kid. I mean, that was just, that was terrifying. I mean, I didn’t know how I had let Satan in, and I didn’t know what I had done. If I didn’t know how I’d let Satan in I didn’t know how to make Satan leave me. And the very thought that I held Satan within me, made me think I was going to hell, which, as a kid, I was raised with a very literal version of hell, where you burn forever with no reprieve. This was absolutely terrifying. And of course, in hindsight, I think that’s exactly what he wanted was to put this enormous, just exponentially greater shame onto me, so that I would not talk about it. Because why would I want anyone to know that I harbored Satan?   Julie Roys  13:36 Unbelievable And yet when you did speak, like you referenced, nothing was done to help you. And you initially spoke with it was your music minister, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  13:49 Yes, that’s right. And he was also my piano teacher. I always had my piano lessons in the church sanctuary on the baby grand there. He was the music minister. And it was because I had just developed this enormous fear that I must surely be going to hell. And so one day at my piano lesson, I just, I mean, psychologically, I was at a point where I was just breaking then, and I just completely froze. I mean, my hands literally would not move on the keys. And I told the music minister that I was afraid I was going to hell, and I asked him, “Am I going to hell? Then I told him that I’ve had an affair. And that was my own word an affair with the pastor. And he basically just told me to never talk about it again, at all. And he said, I wouldn’t go to hell, but it wasn’t much comfort, really, at that time. He told me never to talk about it. He did nothing. And many, many years later, I learned that he had already known even at that point in time, because the youth pastor himself had talked about it with him.   Julie Roys  15:00 That level of complicity and silence, I just I don’t understand like, do you have any idea why he would do that? Why would a music minister say nothing about a pastor that he knows is sexually abusing a teenage girl?   CHRISTA BROWN  15:26 It’s very hard for me to explain. He was a father himself. He had a young daughter at that time. And so it’s hard for me to understand why he couldn’t think about his own daughter and imagine how he would feel if it were her. And it’s very, very hard for me to comprehend. I think that instinct among some religious leaders who kind of circle the wagons and protect themselves is very, very strong. Also the sense of protecting the institution, the sense of not doing anything that would bring, that would hurt the cause of Christ that would hurt the witness. I think all of that is a part of it. And yet, of course, none of that excuses it.   Julie Roys  16:21 No, and it’s not really biblical. I mean, Scripture tells us to confess our sins, not to bury our sins, and yet, that’s what the church has been doing for so long. Not all churches, but certainly within the Southern Baptist Convention this has been a widespread problem. So Tommy Gilmore, who was your youth pastor,, did eventually leave the church, was given what I understand sort of a hero’s send-off. Yes. And then, which I just can’t even imagine you as a kid, like, you have to go through an exorcism. Meanwhile, your abuser gets a hero send-off, and then you go home to live like, just go on, right? Like nothing’s happened, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  17:07 That’s right. He did indeed have a hero sendoff. He went to a bigger church; I was told that he would have a better salary. The senior pastor praised him for the pulpit and talk of how fortunate we all were, how blessed we were to have had such a man of God in our midst for so long, there was a big church reception where everyone brought their casseroles and stuff. And in hindsight, I don’t know how as a kid, I could have thought anything else. I mean, here was a great man of God, praised by everyone. I was the girl who harbored Satan.   Julie Roys  17:43 Just awful. And when you did go home, you did confess to one of your sisters what had happened. Her response was pretty horrific.   CHRISTA BROWN  17:53 Yes, she called me a slut.   Julie Roys  17:55 Unbelievable. And so the shame that you must have felt that you shouldn’t have felt but I’m sure you did, must have been just just awful. But you were given, I mean, sound like the pastor then arranged for you to have a job at the library. And your mother kind of encouraged you for this maybe? What was it he said that he thought you should be busy or something? Or I mean, kind of like he knew what had happened.   CHRISTA BROWN  18:23 Yeah exactly. None of this was really explained to me. But my mom said, Brother Hayden thinks you need to stay busy. And so they set me up with a job at the Farmers Branch Public Library, which I started immediately, which turned out to be even though I had never sought this job. But it turned out to be a very, very good thing. I loved working at the library.   Julie Roys  18:52 And you even said, I think later on your book, you credit some of your ability to come through all this to the books that you read, which opened your mind to a whole new world, which what a beautiful thing that in the midst of all of this awfulness, there was this oasis right?   CHRISTA BROWN  19:09 Oh, absolutely. The library was very much my safe place. Books were my safe place, always my refuge. A library has a certain kind of orderliness about it, and the neat rows and every book has its place. And that brought a level of comfort to me.   Julie Roys  19:28 Yeah. And one of the great things was that you were a very studious person, it sounds like, and that ended up being a route for you kind of out of some of your home life. But initially, you thought you would go off to college when you graduated from high school. It didn’t really turn out that way. Kind of like your mom sabotaged that. Is that a correct way of putting it?   CHRISTA BROWN  19:51 Yes, that is she did sabotage it. She wanted me at home for her own reasons, and I wound up staying home and commuting to college, and it was a very, very bad year, because she was struggling enormously. And both of my parents were struggling.   Julie Roys  20:13 The second death that you described is when your sister Rita was separated from her husband, Richard, and something happened. I’m gonna let you describe what happened, but also how that played out within your family and your family relationships.   CHRISTA BROWN  20:31 Well basically, I had gone over to babysit their young two-year-old daughter, and he made a move on me. Told me that he had married the wrong sister. That he should have married me. He picked the right family but picked the wrong sister. And I felt very trapped at the time. I did leave, of course. But I mean, this was someone I had grown up with. This was someone who was like a brother to me. This was my oldest sister. And so he had been a part of our family, since I was like 12 years old. So, in that sense, it just felt incredibly wrong and bizarre. But the one thing I knew with absolute certainty was that if I talked about it, I would be blamed for it. That even at that young age, I knew that for sure. And so ever after this was, again, another great secret that I had the key. It really kind of, I think, warped some of the relationships in our family. For every Thanksgiving, and all sorts of family gatherings thereafter, every single time, I would always try very, very hard to make sure I was never alone in the room with him. And yeah, that was the death of that kind of view of my family. I think.   Julie Roys  22:14 One of the things I’ve noticed just from my experience in ministry is that often a child that’s raised in a dysfunctional home, even though they recognize it’s a dysfunctional home, has trouble breaking those patterns, and often picks a spouse that is often very much like the dysfunctional parent or one of the dysfunctional parents. And yet you did the exact opposite. I mean, you turned down one proposal from someone who you didn’t love. And your mother pressured you quite a bit to marry because he had an engineering degree with some financial stability there. But instead you met a guy, Jim. What was it that really drew you to Jim, someone who was completely other than your family, and so healthy in so many ways? What really made you fall for Jim?   CHRISTA BROWN  23:13 Well. Initially, it was just that he had these gorgeous blue eyes.   Julie Roys  23:18 That helps, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  23:21 But it was just a connection there that I could not deny. You know, and with Jim, what you see is what you get. He is who he is, and there is never ever any kind of hidden agenda, any dagger behind that smile. That’s it. He is up for and in true. And that was always very clear to me. That mainly, it was just this connection that I felt with him. So much so that, I mean, it felt so powerful. And I felt fearful of it because I think I recognized immediately that this was something powerful, life-changing potentially. And so initially, what I did was to tell him that I could never be serious about someone who hadn’t read Anna Karenina.   Julie Roys  24:18 Well, of course! Who of us hasn’t said that, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  24:24 That was my effort in escaping because I was so afraid of this. But Jim proceeded to read Anna Karenina. So I had no excuse. And so we’ve been together ever since.   Julie Roys  24:37 That’s so funny. And then you went on to do something that nobody in your family thought possible. You went to law school, and even the application process and everything. I mean, to have the gumption to do that. Despite the fact your mother said you’re gonna fail. You’re not going to do well. Again, this incredible hurdle, what made you feel like you could go to law school?   CHRISTA BROWN  25:07 You know, I really only had, I came from a blue-collar family. And I really only had one friend at that point in time, who had been to law school. And I kind of thought, Well, I think I’m as smart as him. And he was a good deal more assertive than me by temperament. But I thought I could give it a chance. And initially, I really was very tentative about it. I kind of just kind of tip toed in and told myself, well, I’ll try it for one semester and see how it goes. But I did well, so then I continued. And with my family, I did not tell anyone I was even applying until I was already in, already accepted, already had my financial aid lined up. Because I was fearful of what the reaction would be. I was fearful of how negative it would be. And even intellectually, knowing that maybe that’s not right, your family’s words still carry power. And so I made sure I had things in place before I even told them.   Julie Roys  26:21 So true and so important. But yeah, I mean, even if  intellectually, that’s a lie. Or even if they’re saying this because of their own issues, right? It’s still hard to overcome that. And so the fact that you did, again, amazing resiliency. And then you had a daughter, which is just so beautiful. I have one daughter, I had two boys, and then my daughter. But daughters change us in remarkable ways. And you, even though you really didn’t have a model for healthy parenting, sounds like you did a really great job, and you broke some of those patterns of behavior that you saw in your family. What do you attribute that to?   CHRISTA BROWN  27:09 I attribute it to letting my daughter herself educate me, being observant of her, trying to attune myself to what’s going on with her. And recognizing that and trying to be sensitive to that. I do think that breaking long established patterns or familial dysfunction is very, very difficult. I mean, lots of people would like to make a decision and say, Oh, I won’t do things like my parents did. But the thing is, it’s not just a one-time decision. It’s something that has to be done in 1000s, of tiny, tiny little decisions, to choose to pause in the moment, to pay attention, to think about what’s happening. And that kind of attentiveness takes effort. And I think I attribute it to that. Also books I write,I don’t feel that I had a good roadmap to follow from my own upbringing. But  I was big on books.   Julie Roys  28:29 And that guided you. One book that you mentioned, you read your daughter was the Bible, but  chose not to raise her in the church, understandably because of your experience. But you decided to have her explore that herself with just reading her scripture and telling her Bible stories. As I was reading that, I just realized that my own experience within the church when I think of like your experience, my experience, things that for me, certain songs that for me are very comforting to you probably have a totally different connotation. Like for me, Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus is a beautiful song that reminds me of a wonderful, idyllic, really in comparison childhood that I had growing up in the church, where people were trustworthy, and people weren’t hypocrites. But yet for you were, how do you come to terms with that, and with what the church did? with God? with faith? How do you come to terms with that?   CHRISTA BROWN  29:53 For me, it’s very, very different. Because things like that. Tis So Sweet to Trust in Jesus. No, it was not sweet for me. Because trusting in Jesus, that was exactly what I did as a kid. That was my whole heart was to put every bit of trust in Jesus. And that led me down a very, very dark road. And that’s not the kind of thing that I can cognitively reason my way out of. Because the reality for me is that things like that, hymns like that, all sorts of Scripture like that, that for me now is kind of physiologically, neurologically networked with child rape. And that’s not something I can just say, Oh, no, I’m gonna think about this and not choose for it to be that way. No, that’s the way it is. And I accept that that is how it is. And I live with that. So yeah, for me, I mean, and that, I think, is what people need to realize is the enormous if you value your faith so much, then you need to be implementing serious accountability measures to make sure that these kinds of men do not church hop from church to church, because look at the damage that is done.   Julie Roys  31:20 Well. And that’s why I think spiritual abuse, and especially when it’s coupled with sexual abuse, has to be about the most profound harmful abuse there is, because you’re not just harming the body, but the soul in such a profound way. And it really is, I mean, that spiritual leaders or people who purport to be spiritual leaders, aren’t just horrified and wanting to root this out. I mean, says to me a lot about what they truly believe.   CHRISTA BROWN  31:55 Exactly. It is very, very hard. Certainly, for me, it is very hard to feel safe in faith, when faith itself has been used to eviscerate. And that doesn’t mean feeling safe in a church. That means feeling safe within myself in faith. It’s a very hard thing now,   Julie Roys  32:19 The shame that you felt as a kid, as I talk to you now, you seem to be very clear on the fact that you should have felt no shame, that you did nothing wrong. At what point did you get to that point where you realized this is not my fault? This is has been put on me by evil people. But it’s not my fault. I’m sure it was a process. But were there any points at which like, kind of a breakthrough where you’re like, this was not me?   CHRISTA BROWN  32:55 Yes. It was really my daughter who saved me, I think. Because when she was approaching the same age I had been at the time that the abuse, it was as though something exploded in my head. All these dark dusty boxes that were on the back shelf of my brain, that I had shoved back there and ignored for so long. All of a sudden, I kind of had to pull those boxes down and look at them and see what was in them. And that shifted thing. Suddenly, I saw things through the eyes of a mother in imagining what if someone did to my daughter what was done to me? And that was something I could not live with and could not accept. And really, that was  the singular kernel of truth from which everything else flowed. Because the one thing I knew for sure, and I didn’t know very much for sure. But I knew this, if someone did to my daughter what had been done to me, I would not blame her for one second, and I would be absolutely furious. And that shifted everything.   Julie Roys  34:20 Hmm. And so you did. You did at the age of 51, right? You publicly spoke out and really you talk about this as sort of the third death when you spoke about what had happened because of the response that you got. Although, before we talk about the response, just the fact that and I read in your book that the average age of someone coming forward is 52 which is insane to me, I would have guessed, like maybe late 20s early 30s you begin to sort of grapple with what had happened in your family or whatever. Why is it so late that people come forward about their childhood sexual abuse?   CHRISTA BROWN  35:13 I think the shame is so enormous. And as a kid, we absorbed that shame, and when we ossify into a few of what happened that blamed ourselves and we absorb that, as a kid, we solidify that view. It’s horrifying, we put that view, we put that into a box, put it up in their head, and put it on the back shelf. And we never want to look at it again, although, of course, it’s there. And it affects us in enormous ways. But I think it then just takes a very, very long time. And then there are these triggering events, like having kids of our own, to begin to understand, because we formed that view when we were young. And it impacted our whole identity.   Julie Roys  36:09 So when you did come forward, you spoke to your church, your childhood church. I’m not sure why you had optimism about that.   CHRISTA BROWN  36:19 I’m an optimistic person by nature.   Julie Roys  36:22 Yeah. I mean, you must. But I mean, when I read that I also thought,  when I first blew the whistle at Moody, I naively thought when I went to the trustees with the information I had, they would do the right thing. And that was not my experience. But I think we still hold on to this view that, man, these authority figures, they must not know. And so if I tell them, they will do something. Explain what happened when you did come forward to your church, and then I believe to, the Baptist Convention there in Texas as well.   CHRISTA BROWN  36:58 I was in my 50s,  early 50s. And I absolutely believe that they would do the right thing, that they want to help me. I was adamant about it. The same music minister who had known when I was a kid was still there at my same childhood church. I was absolutely convinced; I knew that he had raised a daughter by then. I thought he’s older now he will know better. He’ll wish he had done things differently. He will have learned some things; he will want to help me. And I have never been more wrong about anything in all my life then I was about that. Because the church’s first response was to threaten to seek legal recourse against me if I talked about it. And yeah, that was fairly intimidating. Even as someone who is a lawyer, I thought, whoa. And of course, you have to realize, I think, even as I’m doing this, at that point in time, I’m still trying to work through this process in my own mind, of unpacking everything that was done to me, of just dealing with it, of coming to terms with it. And that is a long emotional process because it was very traumatic. And at the same time then having the church threaten me, and try to bully me, that was just absolutely devastating. And then eventually, of course, yes, I also talked with people at the Baptist General Convention of Texas. Again, thinking these will know something. And I’ve contacted 18 Southern Baptist leaders in four different states, thinking surely there would be someone and there was no one. Absolutely no one who would do anything to help.   Julie Roys  38:59 One of the things that I thought back on when I was reading your book is about totalitarian states; that one of the things that a totalitarian state has to do is take over the press. And in Baptist land, they had their own press. Yes. And that was also weaponized against you, right?   CHRISTA BROWN  39:22 Yes, exactly. The Baptist Press published an article in which they said that I made false accusations, which, again, that was just absolutely devastating. But they’re in control of their own press, which gives them the ability to control the narrative, to present the picture that they want to present. That’s a very, very powerful tool.   Julie Roys  39:47 Although they don’t control all of it. And this is the thing that I have been so grateful for before the internet. Really, you had to go through all the gatekeepers, and I know, I couldn’t have done the reporting I’ve done had I had to go through the gatekeepers of the major Christian publications because they didn’t want to report half of this. Right. And I think the whole ME-TOO movement has taken off because of that. The Church TOO movement has taken off, because now, we have our own platforms, we have our own megaphones. And we can expose this stuff, and you did not stop. You just kept coming. And I’m guessing that that you’re one of so many, and so many people who have been suffering the same way as you have. But you went to the Southern Baptist Convention, you spoke out. Talk about your literally decades of advocacy, and what has kept you going through that.   CHRISTA BROWN  40:56 What has always kept me going has been the stories of other survivors, the very awareness that I wasn’t alone, and that there were so many others who did not have the ability, the resources, the educational background, the stamina, or maybe they just had toddlers under foot at home, they didn’t have the energy available for this. Back in 2006, I managed to publish an op-ed piece with the Dallas Morning News. And that was very early for me in this process. And it was after I did that, and I had my email address at the end of it, I was just flooded with emails. And that was when I really began to understand how pervasive this was. And most of those voices, most of those people are stories that no one ever hears about. And so that is always what has been a very powerful, made me feel a powerful sense of obligation. Because I’m very aware of those people. And I also want to say, the name of my book is Baptistland. And yes, I think there is this overarching kind of inculturation that this authoritarian type of Baptistland influences in our culture. But as you say, way back when, one of the earliest news media sources to begin reporting these stories was Associated Baptist Press, which is not affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, they’re Independent Baptist press. And they were some of the very first. We would not have some of the history we have and the documentation of this long problem if they had not been doing that work. And it continues today with Baptist News Global, which again, is not affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. I frequently write for them. So, yes, there have been other avenues, kind of on the fringes of Baptistland, that have been helpful in documenting this problem. And for that, I’ve been enormously grateful.   Julie Roys  43:14 So much has happened, especially in the past five years. The Houston Chronicle. That report showing literally hundreds of Southern Baptists leaders and volunteers engaged in credible abuse, effecting we know now over 700 victims. And again, that’s probably a fraction of it, because so many don’t speak, so many don’t come forward. We have Guidepost Solutions, who did their review, independent investigation of the executive committee the way that abuse survivors were treated. We know now that you were treated horribly, not just you, although you’re mentioned quite a bit in that report. But many survivors have been treated this way. SBC has initiated seemingly some reforms, the Caring Well Conference. But when it comes to substantive reform, have we seen substantive reform in the SBC?   CHRISTA BROWN  44:22 No, we have not. In my view, almost everything that they have done has been performative in nature. They still have no  names of credibly accused pastors on a database. They have talked and talked and talked. We’ve seen committee after committee, taskforce after task force. But no institutionally, they are not making progress. If they viewed this as a high priority, things would be very different. And you’re right. It is such a tragedy. It has been five years now since the Houston Chronicle Abuse of Faith series. It’s been two years since the Guidepost Report. That is enough time that we should see a great deal more change then we do. And yes, I’m named 70 times in that Guidepost Report, precisely because the executive committee treated me so terribly, and that’s now documented there. And that is just one report about one small entity of the Southern Baptist Convention, the executive committee. And what it reflects is pretty incredibly awful. And yet, the executive committee itself, it doesn’t make amends for its wrongdoing. It doesn’t impose consequences on those who treated me so terribly. No. And so what kind of example do they set for the rest of the Southern Baptist Convention? And they could take responsibility and accountability for their own wrong without anything to do with local church autonomy. They could do that themselves. No, they do not.   Julie Roys  46:15 And that was the big excuse for so many years was the SBC saying, listen, we’re a denomination that really honors local church autonomy. So we can’t really impose anything on these local churches. And you are asking for very common-sense reforms. I mean, a list for example, of all of the credibly accused or convicted pastors or leaders within the SBC. We just want a database, right? asking for this and them saying, oh, we can’t do that because of autonomy. And yet when this Guidepost Solutions report comes out, we find out they’re keeping their own list.   CHRISTA BROWN  46:52 Yes, they’ve been doing it all along, ever since 2007, while simultaneously claiming that they can’t keep a list. And of course, keeping records and sharing information on credibly accused clergy sex abusers, there’s nothing about that, that intrudes on the autonomy of local churches. To the contrary, that kind of information-sharing system could provide local churches with the resources that they need to exercise their autonomy more responsibly. That’s not on behalf of the local churches that their doing that. It’s on behalf of the larger denominational structures of the Southern Baptist Convention, that they’re protecting themselves.   Julie Roys  47:49 Wow. And we still don’t have it. We still don’t have a good database. This is not brain surgery, folks. This is really, really simple. But it shows the lack of will on the part of the Southern Baptist Convention. I think I just tweeted something out, not tweeted, posted on X. I can’t get used to that. But something recently; Southern Baptist minister saying, hey we’ve got the sex abuse crisis and everything else. But we need to get back to the really important things of winning people for Christ. That, to me is so infuriating that we don’t see, Jesus cared for the least of these, throughout Scripture talks about the least of these. How do we think what are we winning people to if our churches don’t reflect the heart of God? It’s so perverse and so frustrating. And I’m curious at this point, I mean, do you have hope for reform within the SBC? or do you feel like it’s a lost cause?   CHRISTA BROWN  48:56 I certainly don’t think that we will see meaningful reform in my lifetime. I really don’t. I just don’t think this institution is going that direction. They’ve given us no evidence on which to believe that they’re serious about this at all. And they have had multiple opportunities over the past 20 years to reckon with this, really serious opportunities, when they could have chosen to do so. And again, and again, they do not. So no, I do not hold hope for the institution. I do hold hope for individuals. I think there is value in putting the truth out there, regardless of what the Southern Baptist Convention may or may not ever do. Thank goodness, my hope does not rest on them.   Julie Roys  49:48 Amen. I mean, honestly, I think the truth has its own power and how it works itself out. That’s not in our hands. There’s nothing we can do about it. We’re not that powerful. But I know there’s a lot of different ways to look at this. I mean, some people come up to me and they’re like, Well, why is all of this being exposed now? What is going on? You know, it’s something awful in the church. And I’m like, Well, what we’re exposing most of what we’re exposing is decades old. Some of its recent, but a lot of it is decades old, that just hasn’t been exposed. And I do think God’s angry about it. I mean, that’s my personal belief on this. And that some of this is being exposed, that there is judgment coming. And there’s a reckoning coming. I do take heart in the fact that at least the truth is getting out there. But what people do with it, pretty tough. But I do think it will be a decade’s-long process, I thought at first it’d be a year or two few years. It’ll be a decade’s long process of this being exposed. But I do pray that something, some good structures grow out of it.   CHRISTA BROWN  51:13 I do believe that in years to come, and maybe decades to come, that ordinary human beings will look back on all this. Which is why I’m so glad things are being documented. We’ll look back on all this, and it will be so aberrant as to be almost inconceivable. And they will say, you? a multibillion-dollar tentacular institution? used this excuse of church autonomy to avoid protecting kids against clergy sex abuse? really? And it will seem so horrifying as to be almost inconceivable. I think that will happen. And this institution is on the wrong side of history.   Julie Roys  52:02 I agree with that.100%. And I’ll also say that when I talk to abuse survivors, it’s often not the abuser. I mean, the abuser obviously does horrific harm. But it’s the protectors, the allies, the bystanders that do nothing, or worse than that actually contribute to the crime by covering it up. That is what really, really causes the harm. And so I mean, to Southern Baptist leaders who probably won’t listen to this podcast, but if you do, shame on you! do something. I mean, this is unconscionable that you call yourselves Christians and you don’t do anything about abuse survivors. That is, to me, a test of the authenticity of your faith.   CHRISTA BROWN  52:52 You know you’re absolutely right Julie. This is perhaps the single most universal commonality that I find in survivor stories is almost invariably, as awful, and horrific as the sexual abuse itself is, what does even greater damage is how terribly survivors are treated by religious leaders, by churches, by people of faith. That is hard to reckon with and hard to come to terms with. It is one thing to come to terms with the evil that one man can do, but it is quite another thing to try to come to terms with, And everyone else acts as though it’s okay. And this kind of systemic institutional problem does not come about without the complicity of countless others who enable these things. And that is where the real problem lies.   Julie Roys  54:00 The fourth death that you talk about in your book is when your mother died, and your own sisters cut you out of an inheritance. And a lot of it though, based in the fact that your family didn’t want you talking about this. I can only imagine. I mean, I felt it as I read the book, but the pain that I’m sure you still carry from that. Why is it that your family wanted to silence you so much on this issue, so much that they would retaliate in this way?   CHRISTA BROWN  54:45 I think because they felt it brought shame onto the family. And because I grew up in a sort of family that says you pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You never talk about difficult things. You never talk about the family. My sister blamed me for what they said was making mom feel guilty because I had talked about this. Mom herself before she died, as I was speaking out numerous times would tell me that she thought I needed to own my part in it. Even though of course, I had been a kid. But she too had been, I think, misled, and manipulated by Brother Hayden, the senior pastor of our church at that time. And he’s now deceased. Because years later, many years later, I learned that he had told her that I would just forget about it. So that was a way of silencing my mom as well. And on some level, I think my mom must have felt guilty for that. As many mothers would feel guilt if something really terrible happens to a kid.  But I think she felt an enlarged level of guilt, which she could not really process. And it’s not as if people in my family went to counseling, right? And then because my mom felt guilty, my sister, I never put blame on her. I never ever put blame on her. But nevertheless, my sisters blamed me for making mom feel guilty. But, in some way if I think that’s all , scapegoating is something that human beings do. It’s something as old as time. And I think that’s what my sister did to me. Wrong. And in some ways, then they scapegoated me, and that was just kind of the rationalization for legitimizing what they did. And yes, to say it was painful, would be a real understatement. It was extremely painful.   Julie Roys  57:01 So sorry. You end your book with an afterword to childhood or clergy sex abuse survivors. And I know, our podcast, many survivors listen to this podcast. What message do you have for them?   CHRISTA BROWN  57:21 First and foremost, you are so worthy, you are a human being of infinite value. Whatever has been done to you within this faith community, it does not define who you are. Whoever you are at this point in your life right now, whether you are a person of faith or no faith, I don’t care. You are of infinite value and all of this other stuff that the faith community has communicated to you. Which abuse does this to people. It inculcates in you this notion that somehow you are not worthy. And that is a lie. That is a lie. So that would be the first thing I would say. And secondly, I would say, to all survivors and advocates, and really almost anyone out there, cultivate your skepticism. And sadly, when we see that faith itself is weaponized for power, that the accoutrements of faith are used to help propagandize and the perpetuation of status quo power structures, then it behooves us to apply our skepticism even to matters of faith. And I say, do not feel guilty for skepticism; not one bit. People need to earn trust. There’s nothing wrong with you for, for holding doubt.   Julie Roys  59:10 And I believe that if God is God, that he can handle our doubt, he can handle our hurt, he can handle our anger. And it’s justified in these cases. And it’s one of the greatest conundrums of the human experience. If God is great, and God is good, how do these horrible things happen to innocent people? It’s above my paygrade; it’s certainly one question that I’ve wrestled with an awful lot in my life and continue to, but I appreciate so much Christa, you’re honest, you’re honest  recounting your story and where you’re at, and you are a hero to the survivor community. And again, you have been in it so much longer than I have been. And I just look to folks like you who have really blazed a trail. And just so, so, so grateful for your work. So thank you.   CHRISTA BROWN  1:00:21 Thanks, Julie. Thanks for having me here. I really appreciate it.   Julie Roys  1:00:28 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’d like a copy of Christa’s book called Baptistland, you can get one when you give $30 or more to The Roys report this month. As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors, we simply have you, the people who care about exposing abuse and corruption in the church so she can be restored. So if you’d like to help us out and get a copy of Baptistland, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys report on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. I hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more