Podcasts about Willow Creek Community Church

In this episode of the Touring the Holy Land Series, Jen has a conversation with Rev. Dr. Mae Elise Cannon, the executive director of Churches for Middle East Peace. Mae shares some of her transformative experiences traveling and leading trips in Palestine-Israel. She unpacks the role that privilege plays when foreigners travel to the region, emphasizing the cognitive dissonance  that travelers often face when encountering conflicting narratives and the systemic injustices that Palestinians endure. Mae shares about how Churches for Middle East Peace facilitates Christian Holy Land pilgrimages, fostering transformative possibilities for Christian peacebuilding through multi-narrative trips that uplift diverse perspectives from Palestinians and Israelis.In their extended conversation for our Patreon supporters, Jennifer and Mae discuss the impact of Christian pilgrimage on Palestinian communities, highlighting both the economic and emotional significance of solidarity. To access this extended conversation and others, consider ⁠supporting us on Patreon⁠. Rev. Dr. Mae Elise Cannon is the executive director of Churches for Middle East Peace. Cannon formerly served as the senior director of Advocacy and Outreach for World Vision U.S. on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC; as a consultant to the Middle East for child advocacy issues for Compassion International in Jerusalem; as the executive pastor of Hillside Covenant Church located in Walnut Creek, California; and as director of development and transformation for extension ministries at Willow Creek Community Church in Barrington, Illinois. Cannon holds an MDiv from North Park Theological Seminary, an MBA from North Park University's School of Business and Nonprofit Management, and an MA in bioethics from Trinity International University. She received her first doctorate in American History with a minor in Middle Eastern studies at the University of California (Davis) focusing on the history of the American Protestant church in Israel and Palestine and her second doctorate in Ministry in Spiritual Formation from Northern Theological Seminary. She is the author of several books including the award-winning Social Justice Handbook: Small Steps for a Better World and editor of A Land Full of God: Christian Perspectives on the Holy Land. Her work has been highlighted in The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, Chicago Tribune, Christianity Today, Leadership Magazine, The Christian Post, Jerusalem Post, EU Parliament Magazine, Huffington Post, and other international media outlets.If you enjoy our content, please consider supporting our work on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/AcrosstheDivide Follow Across the Divide on ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ ⁠⁠⁠‪@AcrosstheDividePodcast‬⁠⁠⁠Across the Divide partners with Peace Catalyst International to amplify the pursuit of peace and explore the vital intersection of Christian faith and social justice in Palestine-Israel.Show Notes:Vox article on the influence of the book Exodus by Leon UrisCMEP TripsCMEP Action alert

In this episode of the "But I Tell You" podcast, host Tyler Gorsline welcomes Steve Ryan Carter, Lead Pastor at @christchurch.us and former co-lead pastor of Willow Creek Community Church. Join them as they explore Steve's profound journey through grief and transformation, focusing on his recent book, "Grieve, Breathe, Receive: Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us."Steve opens up about navigating significant loss and change, sharing the lessons he's learned about grieving with hope and following a path of character and formation. From the impact of his personal and spiritual losses to the wisdom he's gained about living a life of integrity, Steve provides valuable insights for leaders and anyone facing grief.Discover how slowing down and embracing the full spectrum of Holy Weekend—grief, waiting, and resurrection—can transform your journey and foster a more compassionate and empathetic approach to life. This conversation is rich with practical advice, spiritual depth, and a hopeful message for anyone seeking to live an authentic and grounded life.Be sure to follow the "But I Tell You" podcast on social media @ButITellYouPodcast. Share this episode with a friend who might need encouragement on their own journey through grief and healing.

“Did you have integrity today?”  That's the question that Steve Carter—author, podcaster, and former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church—pictured his son asking him when allegations of sexual harassment against Bill Hybels emerged. Steve Carter shares how he has dealt with being misunderstood and his highest values being wielded against him. He talks about the power of the Resurrection and shares what propelled him to write Grieve, Breathe, Receive—a memoir on grief and healing. Listen in for a rich discussion on relationships, reactivity, and remembrance. Resources mentioned in this episode include: Luke: Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching by Fred B. Craddock Steve Carter Craft & Character with Steve Carter Grieve, Breathe, Receive: Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us by Steve Carter The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It) by Steve Carter Willow Creek Community Church “Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs” “Cadet Prayer” Annie F. Downs Ira Glass Camino De Santiago “What Is a Verbatim?” Compassion International “Welcoming Practice” The Worst James Harden Flops Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Did you have integrity today?”  That's the question that Steve Carter—author, podcaster, and former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church—pictured his son asking him when allegations of sexual harassment against Bill Hybels emerged. Steve Carter shares how he has dealt with being misunderstood when his highest values were wielded against him. He talks about the power of the Resurrection and shares what propelled him to write Grieve, Breathe, Receive—a memoir on grief and healing. Listen in for a rich discussion on relationships, reactivity, and remembrance. Resources mentioned in this episode include: Luke: Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching by Fred B. Craddock Steve Carter Craft & Character with Steve Carter Grieve, Breathe, Receive: Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us by Steve Carter The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It) by Steve Carter Willow Creek Community Church “Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs” “Cadet Prayer” Annie F. Downs Ira Glass Camino de Santiago “What Is a Verbatim?” Compassion International “Welcoming Practice” The Worst James Harden Flops Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Preaching with authenticity is no easy task, but for Megan, authenticity is the only gear she knows. The question remains—how do we craft honest sermons and let the message impact our own lives first? Megan is a pastor, speaker, and author joining us from Lakewood, California. She serves as the teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois and leads a women's Bible study at Arbor Road Church in Long Beach, California. Whether preaching, leading, or writing her latest book, Megan brings a refreshing honesty that resonates deeply and inspires many. In today's conversation, you'll hear about: - How joy, longing, and sorrow intertwine to deepen hope and trust in God - Two practical prayer rhythms Megan has developed to foster intimacy with Jesus - What it looks like to preach with integrity while wrestling with the reality of mixed motives - The heart behind her new book, Relaxed Megan is known for sharing with energy, joy, and sincerity—so we hope this conversation encourages you today. Biography Megan is determined to use her life to spread hope, share truth, and celebrate others. She is finishing her Doctorate of Ministry as she serves as a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and the Director of Women's Ministries at Hume Lake Christian Camps. She also shepherds women at Arbor Road Church in Long Beach, California. She invests her time in people, writing books and Bible studies, and exploring all over the globe, teaching and sharing the love of Jesus. She released the book and study guide Relaxed and Beautiful Word Bible study: John, authored the book and Bible study Meant for Good, SelfLess, and co-wrote the book 7 Family Ministry Essentials with Dr. Michelle Anthony. But what we love most about Megan is the way that she sees others. She has a keen ability to notice the people around her and to ask the kinds of questions that help her see them even more clearly. Megan lives in Lakewood, California with her two boys, Foster and Jedidiah. Sponsors We couldn't do the work we do at The Pastorate without your generous support. We invite you to pray, share, and ⁠give⁠ towards seeding a hope-filled future for the Canadian church. Join our Emerging Leaders Lab to connect with fellow pastors in their 20s and 30s, foster resilience and effectiveness in ministry, and learn from some of the brightest minds in the Church today. Our next intake begins soon! Thanks to Generis for supporting this episode. Download a free PDF on Improving Your Giving Statements from Generis or get in touch with Jon Wright from their team here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Guest Notes - Website - Instagram - Relaxed Book Show Notes - Website⁠ - ⁠Blog and Episode Write Up⁠ - Youtube⁠ - ⁠Instagram⁠

What are your plans for the New Year? As we step into 2025, many of us are thinking about resolutions, goals and what lies ahead. But what if planning for the year ahead was less about our own agendas and more about trusting God's plans? In this timely rebroadcast, we're revisiting our conversation with Megan Fate Marshman, who continues to serve as a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and the Director of Women's Ministries at Hume Lake Christian Camps. She recently released a new book, "Relaxed: Walking with the One Who Is Not Worried about a Thing," but her insights from her book "Meant for Good: The Adventure of Trusting God's Plans for You" feel especially relevant as we begin a new year. So listen in as Megan shares in this past conversation how to practically trust God's plans, even when the path isn't clear, and discover why this trust might still be the most important thing you plan for in the new year. EPISODE SHOWNOTES: Read more. BE AFFIRMED. Get the Good Words email series. JOIN THE HOPEFULS. Get inside the group. WHAT'S YOUR CAUSE? Take our quiz. BE INSPIRED. Follow us on Instagram. DO GOOD. Give to The Salvation Army.

In this episode, Daniel has a conversation with educator and New Testament scholar Gary Burge. They unpack the theology of Christian Zionism and the misinterpretation and misuse of the Bible as it relates to the land of Palestine-Israel. Throughout their conversation, they take a close look at biblical stories that present theologies of the land, both in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. In their extended conversation for our Patreon supporters, Daniel and Gary discuss rapture theology and unpack some of the biblical passages that have been interpreted to shape what have become harmful understandings of "the end times." To access this extended conversation and others, consider ⁠supporting us on Patreon⁠. Gary Burge is originally from Southern California and was an undergraduate at the University of California, Riverside, and The American University of Beirut, Lebanon. He attended Fuller Theological Seminary and King's College, The University of Aberdeen, Scotland. In Scotland he studied with I. Howard Marshall earning a Ph.D. in New Testament. He has served on the faculties of King College (Tennessee), North Park University (Illinois), Wheaton College (Illinois), and currently teaches at Calvin Theological Seminary (Michigan). Gary speaks widely in churches and conferences both in the United States and in various countries. He has traveled extensively, particularly in the Middle East. He is ordained in the Presbyterian Church, USA, and served as a military chaplain (USNR). For over 15 years he was a regular teacher at Willow Creek Community Church in S. Barrington, IL. If you enjoy our podcast, please consider becoming a Patreon monthly supporter at: https://www.patreon.com/AcrosstheDivide  Follow Across the Divide on ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ ⁠⁠⁠‪@AcrosstheDividePodcast‬⁠⁠⁠ Show Notes Whose Land? Whose Promise? What Christians Are Not Being Told about Israel and the Palestinians, Gary Burge Jesus and the Land: The New Testament Challenge to "Holy Land" Theology, Gary Burge

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlcMuch research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted? In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor's kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook. Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she's learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover. As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain. But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn't have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don't try to charge forward before the congregation has healed. Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It's also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who's in a church with others who've experienced deep church hurt. She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study. Guests Kayleigh Clark Kayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score. [00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. [00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast. [00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. [00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. [00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. [00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. [00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today. [00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now. [00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work? [00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy. [00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from. [00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here? [00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches. [00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working. [00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out. [00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma. [00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of. [00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple. [00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it. [00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen. [00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work. [00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that. We talk a lot about that on a lot of podcasts, but we often don’t address again, what’s this collective trauma that, that, you know, that it actually has a social aspect. So talk about why is it important that we begin addressing collective trauma and not just individual trauma, though, you know, obviously we each need to heal as individuals, but collectively as well. [00:08:24] Kayleigh: Yeah. So collective trauma is a newer field, even in psychological studies. So it’s, Not as old as individual trauma studies, and it actually became more popular through the work of Kai Erikson, who’s a sociologist. He’s not even a psychologist, but he studied collective trauma in kind of what he refers to as unnatural disasters. [00:08:43] Kayleigh: And so these disasters that are experienced by communities that have a human, like, blame component. So it was due to somebody’s negligence due to somebody’s poor leadership due to somebody’s abuse, and it’s on a community. And so Kai Erickson notes the, the social, he calls it the social dimension of trauma or collective trauma. [00:09:03] Kayleigh: And what he, he details there is that collective trauma is anything that disrupts and ruptures the, uh, relationships within a community. Distorting and taking apart their, uh, he calls it communality instead of community, but it’s their sense of, like, neighborliness. It’s their sense of being together. It’s their, Their shared identity and their, their shared memories are all now distorted. [00:09:26] Kayleigh: And so I think when we’re speaking specifically about the church, and when we’re looking at religious trauma and congregational trauma, we need to remember that the church is first and foremost, a community. And so sometimes I think that’s missed in our kind of American individualism. You know, a lot of people kind of view spirituality as this individualistic thing, but the church is a community. [00:09:48] Kayleigh: And so when we come together as the body of Christ, you know, when wounding happens, when trauma comes, it breaks down the relationships within that congregation, which really. is what makes it a church. The relationships are what make that a church. And so when trauma comes in and disrupts those and starts causing the divisions and the distrust and the he said, she said, and the choosing of sides and the church splits and all of these things have these ripple effects on the community. [00:10:19] Kayleigh: Um, and they really are, are traumatizing. And so what happens is that if we don’t deal, if we’re only dealing with the individual trauma, In part, that’s usually dealing with people who have left the church, right? And so usually the people who are seeking individual healing from their religious trauma, who are able to name that, who are able to say, I went through this, have often stepped outside of the church. [00:10:42] Kayleigh: Sometimes just for a season, which is completely understandable. They need that time away. They need time to heal. They’re, they don’t, feel safe. But what we’re missing when we neglect the social dimension of religious trauma are often the people who stay are these congregations who can’t name it yet, who can’t articulate that what they’ve gone through is religious trauma, who who maybe are still trying to figure out what that means. [00:11:07] Kayleigh: Often it means that we’re missing, um, you know, these, these the church that I served in, you know, isn’t one of these big name churches that’s going to get, you know, newscasted about. And they can’t necessarily name what happened to them as religious trauma because nobody’s given them the language for it. [00:11:25] Kayleigh: And so we’ve often missed these, these declining churches. We’ve missed because we haven’t remembered that Trauma is communal that trauma is relational. And so we need to, yes, provide as much care and as much resourcing as we can for the healing of individuals, because you can’t heal the community if the individuals don’t know. [00:11:44] Kayleigh: But we really need to remember that the community as a whole. impacted, and that especially when we’re talking about the church, we want to be able to heal and restore those relationships. And to do that means we have to address the social dimensions of the religious trauma. And so [00:12:01] Julie: often the people that, that stay aren’t aware of what’s happened to them. [00:12:08] Julie: Are they not even aware they’re traumatized? [00:12:11] Kayleigh: Right, right. Yeah. [00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. You introduced this, this concept, which is great. I mean, it’s, it’s a riff off of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which, you know, um, just an incredible book by, uh, Dr. Vander Kolk. But this idea that the body of Christ keeps the score. [00:12:33] Julie: Describe what you mean by that, that the body of Christ keeps the score when there’s this kind of trauma that it’s experiencing. [00:12:40] Kayleigh: Sure. So you kind of alluded to it earlier when you were giving an example of the removing of a toxic pastor, right? And then just the placement of a new pastor. And so often what happens in these situations where there’s spiritual abuse or, um, clergy misconduct or any of those things that’s causing this religious trauma, the answer seems to be, well, let’s just remove the. [00:13:00] Kayleigh: Problem person. And then that will solve everything. Um, well, what happens is we forget that trauma is embodied, right? And so you can remove the physical threat. Um, but if you remove the physical threat or the problem person, but this congregation still has this embodied sense of trauma in which they perceive threat now. [00:13:23] Kayleigh: So they’re reacting to their surroundings out of that traumatized position, because that’s what the collective body has learned to do. And so you see this, um, It’s a silly example, but I use it because I think people see it a lot. So you have a new pastor come in and the new pastor has a great idea, at least he or she thinks it’s a great idea. [00:13:46] Kayleigh: And it probably has to do with removing pews or changing carpet color. Okay. And so they present this, what they think is just a great harmless idea. And the response of the congregation is almost volatile and the pastor can’t figure out why. And often, unfortunately, what pastors have kind of been taught to identify is that they must just idolatry. [00:14:11] Kayleigh: They just have the past as an idol for them and they need to kill this golden cow. Right. And so it becomes this theological problem. Sure, there might be cases where that is the truth, but often I would say that there’s, um, a wonderful. So another great book on trauma. It’s more on racialized trauma, but it deals a lot with historical trauma is, um, rest my Mac mannequins book, um, my grandmother’s hands and in it, he addresses this historical trauma that is embodied and he quotes Dr. [00:14:42] Kayleigh: Noel Larson, who says, if it’s hysterical, it’s probably historical. In other words, if the reaction to the thing happening doesn’t seem to match, like it seems out of proportion, either too energized or not enough energy around it, it’s probably connected to some kind of historical trauma that hasn’t been processed. [00:15:03] Kayleigh: And so we see this a lot in churches who are having a hard time being healthy and flourishing and engaging with the community around them. And. The reason why is often because they have this unhealed trauma that nobody’s given them language for. Nobody’s pointed out, nobody’s addressed for them. Um, and so it’s just kind of lingering under the surface, unhealed, unnamed, and it’s informing how they believe, how they act. [00:15:33] Kayleigh: Um, and so this is really What I mean when I say the body of Christ keeps the score is that the body of Christ has embodied this trauma and it’s coming out in their behaviors, in their actions, in their values, and our pastors are not equipped to address it from a trauma informed perspective. They’ve only been given tools to address it from maybe a theological position, or this kind of revitalization remissioning perspective. [00:16:02] Kayleigh: That often doesn’t work. [00:16:04] Julie: There’s so many things I’m thinking as as you’re talking. I mean one. to come in and do something. And then because people react to, I mean, basically that’s shaming them. It’s guilting them to say, Oh, you have an idol or what’s wrong with you that you can’t get on board. And the truth is they don’t know what’s wrong with them. [00:16:23] Julie: They, they don’t. And, and they’re hurt. And all they know is you just, they’re hurt and now you’ve hurt them. So now they don’t trust you. So way to go. Um, but I’m thinking maybe because we brought this up and I don’t mean to beat up on, on Willow Creek, but I’m thinking about. When the new pastor came in, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy, um, you know, they, they were bleeding money. [00:16:45] Julie: Obviously they, they did not have the resources they did before. So one of the first things they did was they centralized, which meant the campus pastors weren’t going to be preaching anymore. They were going to be pumping in video sermons. Here’s the pastor that people trusted on these campuses. Now, that person’s not going to be preaching, which then of course, all of them left. [00:17:06] Julie: They ended up leaving and the trauma you’d now it’s trauma upon trauma. And it just seems like, especially in so many of these churches, you bring somebody in and they want to move somewhere like, right. They want a thriving church. What they don’t want to do is be at a church and sit in your pain. And yet. [00:17:27] Julie: Unless that’s done, I mean, can these churches, I mean, can they move forward? I mean, what’s going to happen if you come in and you don’t? slow down and say, these people are hurting and I need to, I need to be a shepherd. Then that’s the other thing. It’s so many of these mega churches, and I know this isn’t unique to mega churches that this happens, but I, it’s the world in which I report so often is that these mega churches are very mission vision, five year plan oriented and what they’re not capable of doing. [00:17:59] Julie: I think so many of these, you know, and they always bring in the, the pastor. That’s a good orator, maybe not a shepherd at all. In fact, some of these guys even say, I’m not a shepherd, which that’s another, yeah, I mean, but, but to actually, they need a shepherd at that point. Right. I mean, these, these people need it. [00:18:20] Julie: So, I mean, again, what, what do they need to do? And what happens if they don’t do some of these things? [00:18:28] Kayleigh: So the thing that I have really been drawn to, especially as I study Jesus, and I look at what it means to be trauma informed in the pastorate. So I, I do believe that God is still working through pastors. [00:18:39] Kayleigh: Um, in fact, there’s a really beautiful section of scripture in Jeremiah 23, where God is addressing abusive shepherds and God’s response is, I will raise up new shepherds. So God still wants to work through shepherds. There is still a place for a pastor. The problem is, is I don’t think we’ve taught pastors how to lead out of a posture of compassionate curiosity. [00:19:03] Kayleigh: And so if you follow Jesus and you look at the way that Jesus interacts with hurting people, it is out of this beautiful, humble posture of compassionate curiosity. And so I was always struck by like, he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? And it always seemed like a. That’s a strange question. [00:19:20] Kayleigh: Like, he’s blind, Jesus. What do you think he and often it’s preached on, like, well, we need to be able to tell God what we want. And that’s maybe some of it. But I think it’s also the truth that God knows that it can be re traumatizing to somebody to tell them what they need and what they want. Right? So what we learned when we studied trauma is that it’s not. [00:19:40] Kayleigh: So especially when we’re talking trauma caused by abuse is that abuse is so connected to control. And so what has often happened to these victims of religious abuse of spiritual abuse is that they have had control taken from them entirely. And so when a new pastor comes in and tells them, this is what you need to get healthy again, and never takes the time to approach them from this. [00:20:02] Kayleigh: posture of compassionate curiosity, they can end up re traumatizing them. Um, but our pastors aren’t trained to ask these questions. And so, so often if you read, you know, and they’re well meaning books, you know, they’re, they’re trying to get to what’s going on in the heart of the church. They’re trying to get back to church health, but so many of the books around that have to deal with. [00:20:23] Kayleigh: Asking the church, what are you doing or what are you not doing? And trauma theory teaches us to ask a different question. And that question is what happened to you? And I think if pastors were trained to go into churches and ask the question, what happened to you and just sit with a church and a hold the church and, and listen to the stories of the church, they, they might discover that these people have never been given space to even think about it that way. [00:20:52] Kayleigh: You know, where they’ve just, they’ve had abusive leaders who have just been removed or they’ve had manipulative leaders who have just been removed and they’ve just been given a new pastor and a new pastor and nobody’s given them the space. To articulate what that’s done to them, um, as individuals and as a congregation. [00:21:09] Kayleigh: And so if we can learn to, to follow Jesus in just his curiosity, and he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? He, he says, who touched me when the woman reaches out and touches him. And that’s not a, it’s not a question of condemnation. That’s a question of permission giving. He knows that this woman needs more than physical healing. [00:21:28] Kayleigh: She needs relational healing. She needs to tell her story. And by pausing and saying, who touched me? He provides a space for her to share her story that she’s never been able to share with anyone before. And I think if we were to follow that Jesus, as pastors and as leaders, we would begin to love the Bride of Christ in such a way that would lead to her healing, instead of feeling the need to just rush her through some five year plan to what we think is healing and wholeness, and what actually may not be what they would say is what they need. [00:22:02] Julie: So many things you’re saying are resonating with me. And part of that’s because, uh, like I said, we’re living this. Um, I, I told you last week when we talked that our, our house church was going on a retreat, first retreat we’ve ever had. We’ve been together a little over, well, for me, I came in about two years ago and I think they had been meeting maybe eight or nine months before then. [00:22:29] Julie: Some of the people in our group, Um, don’t come out of trauma. Um, you know, one of our, one of the couples in our church, uh, they’re like young life leaders, really just delightful, delightful, delightful people, but they haven’t lived the religious trauma. One couple is, they’re from the mission field and they had a great missions experience. [00:22:55] Julie: The only trauma they might be experiencing is coming home to the U. S. The truth is they love the mission field, right? Um, and then. The remainder of us come from two, two churches, um, that, that had some sexual abuse that was really, you know, mishandled and the trust with the leaders was, was broken in really grievous ways. [00:23:19] Julie: Um, and then there’s me on top of having that, um, living in this space where, I mean, I just report on this all the time. And so, but one of the beautiful things that happened in this, in this group is that it did have leaders when we came into it and it triggered us. Like, you know, and for us it was like, oh, here’s the inside group and the outside group. [00:23:47] Julie: Like, we’re used to the ins and the outs, right? And, and we’re used to the inside group having power and control, and the rest of us just kind of go along with it. And, and we’re, we’re a tiny little group. Like we’re 20 some people, right? But, but it’s just, and, and we’re wonderful people. Wonderful people. [00:24:02] Julie: And yet we still like, it was like, mm. And um, and so. The beautiful thing is that those leaders recognize, like they didn’t fully understand it, but they said, you know, I think we need to just step down and just not have leaders. And I didn’t even realize till we went on this retreat what an act of service and of love that was for them to just say, were laying down any, any agendas we might’ve had, any even mission or vision that we might’ve had. [00:24:35] Julie: And for one of, you know, one of the guys, it was really hard for him cause he’s just like, Mr. Mr. Energy and initiative. And, and he was like, I better not take initiative because like, it’s, it’s not going to be good for these folks. Um, and on the retreat. So then, I mean, it was, it was really a Holy Spirit. [00:24:54] Julie: experience, I think for all of us, because there definitely was a camp that was like, okay, we’ve had this kind of healing time, but can, can we move forward a little bit? Like, can we, can we have some intentionality? And then there were part of us that were just like, oh my word, if we, if we, if we have leaders, why do we need leaders? [00:25:12] Julie: We’re 20 something people. Like we can just decide everything ourselves. And, and there really was somewhat of an impasse, but it’s interesting. The things that you said for me, And it was funny at one point. They’re like, can’t you just trust? And, you know, kind of like, what, what are you guys afraid of? You know? [00:25:29] Julie: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was control control. Like we’re afraid of control, um, or I’m afraid of control. Um, but what was so, so. Huge for me and I think was one of those again, Holy Spirit moments was when, you know, I was trying to like make a point about power dynamics, like you don’t realize power and like we have to be aware of how power is stewarded in a group like this because everybody has power. [00:25:59] Julie: If you don’t realize as a communicator the power that you have, like I’m aware now that because I can, I can form thoughts pretty quickly. That I can have a lot of influence in a group. I’m aware of that. And so, you know, there was even like a part where I was leading and then I was like, I can’t lead this next thing. [00:26:17] Julie: I’ve been leading too much, you know, and then we, and then we gave, we, somebody had a marker and we gave the marker to, to, um, one of the guys in our group who’s fantastic guy. And, um, And at one point, so, so anyway, I was talking about power and, and one of the guys was like, well, I don’t, I don’t really see power. [00:26:35] Julie: I don’t need. And I’m like, you have it, whether you realize it and you have it. And what was huge is that one of the other guys that sort of a leader was a leader was able to say what she’s talking about is real. Everybody has power. This is really important. And he was quite frankly, somebody with a lot of power in that group because he has a lot of trust, used to be a pastor. [00:26:57] Julie: Um, and for him to acknowledge that for the rest of us was huge. And then this, this other guy, I mean, he said at one point, Oh, well, you know, so and so’s holding the marker right now and he has power, doesn’t he? And I was like, yes, you’re getting it. That’s it. That’s it. Thank you. Because he’s like, you just reframed what we said and I wouldn’t have reframed it that way. [00:27:22] Julie: Like I wouldn’t. And I’m like, yes, exactly. It’s like, and it was like, it was like the light bulbs were going on and people were starting to get it. Um, and then another key, key moment was when one of the women who, you know, wasn’t, you know, from our church where we experienced stuff, who said, can you, can you tell me how that, how that felt for you when we used to have leaders? [00:27:46] Julie: And then for people to be able to express that. And people listened and it was like, and I was able to hear from this guy who felt like he was, he had a straight jacket, you know, because he, he like wants to use his, his initiative. Like he, he. You know, and God’s given that to him. It’s a good thing, you know. [00:28:07] Julie: And all I can say is it was just an incredible experience, an incredible moment, but it would not have happened if, and now I’m going to get kind of, it wouldn’t have happened if people cared more about the mission than the people. And they didn’t realize the people are the mission. This is Jesus work. He doesn’t care about your five year plan. [00:28:41] Julie: He doesn’t care about your ego and the big, you know, plans that you have and things you can do. What he cares is whether you’ll lay your life down for the sheep. That’s what shepherds do. And what I saw in, in our group was the willingness to, for people that have shepherding gifts to lay down their, you know, not literally their lives, but in a way their lives, their, their dreams, their hopes or visions, everything to love another and how that created so much love and trust, you know, in our group. [00:29:22] Julie: And we’re still like trying to figure this out, but yeah, it was, it was hugely, it just so, so important. But I thought how many churches are willing to do that, are willing to, to sit in the pain, are willing to listen. And I’m, I’m curious as you go in now, there’s so much of your work has become with ReStory is, is education and going into these churches. [00:29:52] Julie: You know, normally when this happens, And you told me there’s a, there’s a name for pastors that come in. It’s the afterpastor. Afterpastor. [00:30:00] Kayleigh: Yes. The afterpastor. [00:30:02] Julie: How many times does the afterpastor get it? And does he do that? [00:30:07] Kayleigh: So the problem is, and I can tell you, cause I have an MDiv. I went, I did all the seminary. [00:30:11] Kayleigh: I’m ordained. We don’t get trained in that. Um, so, and there is, um, like you said, so you use this guy as an example who has the clear. Initiative gifts. So they’re what would be called kind of the Apostle, um, evangelist gifts in like the pastoral gift assessment kind of deal. You’ve got the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. [00:30:34] Kayleigh: And right now there’s a lot of weight kind of being thrown behind the Apostle evangelist as kind of the charismatic leader who can set the vision. And so most of the books on pastoral You know, church health and church are written kind of geared and directed that way. Um, so we’re really missing the fact that when we’re talking about a traumatized church, what you really need is a prophet shepherd. [00:30:57] Kayleigh: Um, you need somebody who can come in and shepherd the people and care for them well, but also the prophet. The role of the prophet is often to help people make meaning of their suffering. So if you read closely, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, particularly who are two prophets speaking to people in exile, what they’re really doing is helping people make meaning of that suffering. [00:31:17] Kayleigh: They’re helping people tell their story. They’re, they’re lamenting, they’re crying with them. They’re, they’re asking the hard questions. Um, and they’re able to kind of see between the lines. So prophet, Pastors who have kind of that prophetic gifting are able to see below. They’re able to kind of slow down and hear the actual story beyond the behaviors, right? [00:31:35] Kayleigh: So the behaviors aren’t telling the whole story, but we need eyes to see that. And so the problem, I would say, is that a lot of well, meaning pastors simply aren’t taught how to do this. And so they’re not given the resources. They’re not given kind of the, um. this like Christian imagination to be able to look at a church and say, okay, what has happened here and what healings take place here? [00:31:59] Kayleigh: Um, the other problem is, you know, we need to be able to give space. So denominational leaders need to be able to be okay with a church that maybe isn’t going to grow for a few years. And I think that is whether we like it or not. And we can say all day long that we don’t judge a church’s health by its numbers. [00:32:19] Kayleigh: But at the end of the day, pastors feel this pressure to grow the church, right? To have an attendance that’s growing a budget that’s growing and. And so, and part of it is from a good place, right? We want to reach more people from Jesus, but part of it is just this like cultural pressure that defines success by numbers. [00:32:36] Kayleigh: And so can we be okay with a church that’s not going to grow for a little while? You know, can we be okay with a church that’s going to take some like intentional time to just heal? And so when you have an established church, um, which is a little bit different than a house church model, it can be. A really weird sacrifice, even for the people who are there, because often what you have is you have a segment of the church who is very eager to move forward and move on and and to grow and to move into its new future, and they can get frustrated with the rest of the church. [00:33:15] Kayleigh: That kind of seems to need more time. Um, but trauma healing is it’s not linear. And so, you know, you kind of have to constantly Judith Herman identifies like three components of trauma healing. And so it’s safety and naming and remembering and then reconnecting, but they’re not like you finish safety and then you move to this one and then you move to this one. [00:33:36] Kayleigh: Often you’re kind of going, you’re ebbing and flowing between them, right? Because you can achieve safety and then start to feel like, okay, now I can name it. And then something can trigger you and make you feel unsafe again. And so you’re now you’re back here. And so, um, um, Our churches need to realize that this healing process is going to take time, and collective trauma is complicated because you have individuals who are going to move through it. [00:33:57] Kayleigh: So you’re going to have people who are going to feel really safe, and they’re going to feel ready to name, and others who aren’t. And so you have to be able to mitigate that and navigate that. And our pastors just aren’t simply trained in this. And so what I see happening a lot is I’ll do these trainings and I’ll have somebody come up to me afterwards and go, Oh my goodness, I was an after pastor and I had no idea that was a thing. [00:34:18] Kayleigh: And they’re like, you just gave so much language to my experience. And you know, and now I understand why they seem to be attacking me. They weren’t really attacking me. They just don’t trust the office of the pastor. And I represent the office of the pastor. Okay. And so sometimes they take that personally again, it becomes like these theological issues. [00:34:38] Kayleigh: And so helping pastors understand the collective trauma and being able to really just take the time to ask those important questions and to increase not only their own margin for suffering, but to increase a congregations margin for suffering. You know, to go, it’s going to be, we can sit in this pain. [00:34:58] Kayleigh: It’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s going to be important, you know, learning how to lament, learning how to mourn. All of these things are things that often we’re just not trained well enough in, um, as pastors. And so therefore our congregations aren’t trained in them either. You know, they don’t have margin for suffering either. [00:35:14] Kayleigh: Um, and so we need to be able to equip our pastors to do that. Um, and then equip the congregations to be able to do that as well. [00:35:20] Julie: So good. And I’m so glad you’re doing that. I will say when I first started this work, um, I was not trauma informed. I didn’t know anything about trauma really. And I didn’t even, you know, I was just a reporter reporting on corruption and then it turned into abuse in the church. [00:35:38] Julie: And I started interfacing with a lot of abuse victims. who were traumatized. And I think back, um, and, and really, I’ve said this before, but survivors have been my greatest teachers by far, like just listening to them and learning from them. But really from day one, you know, it’s loving people, right? It really, it like, if you love and if you empathize, which You know, some people think it’s a sin, um, just cannot, um, but if you do that and, and that’s what, you know, even as I’m thinking about, um, within our own, our own house church, there were people who weren’t trained, but they did instinctively the right things because they loved. [00:36:28] Julie: You know, and it just reminds me, I mean, it really does come down to, they will know you are Christians by your love. You know, how do we know love? Like Christ laid down his life for us. He is our model of love and, and somehow, you know, like you said, the, in the church today we’ve, we’ve exalted the, um, what did you say? [00:36:49] Julie: The apostle evangelist? The apostle evangelist. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we’ve exalted that person, um, you know, And I think we’ve forgotten how to love. And too many of these pastors don’t know how to love. They just don’t know how to love. And it’s, it’s tragic. Because they’re supposed to be I mean, the old school models, they were shepherds, you know, like you said, like we need apostles, we need evangelists. [00:37:16] Julie: But usually the person who was leading the church per se, the apostles and evangelists would often end up in parachurch organizations. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. I think the church needs all of those things. Um, and, uh, But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve left that behind, sadly. And there’s nothing sexy about being a shepherd. [00:37:37] Kayleigh: Yeah, no, I, all, all of the Apostle, I mean that, well, the whole thing is needed, um, and it’s most beautiful when we just work together, and, and when they can respond to each other. So, I mean, me and you’re an example in your house, you’re a visiting example of this. You can’t, even if just listening, you have some clear Apostle evangelists in your group, right? [00:37:54] Kayleigh: I mean, Um, right? And so you have these people wired for that, and yet they’re able to, to learn and respond to some of the people in the group who have more of those prophet shepherd tendencies. And so I think that that’s really what, and that’s loving, right? So we should go back. It’s just loving one another and learning from one another. [00:38:17] Kayleigh: And knowing when to lean into certain giftings and to learn from others giftings. This is why it’s the body of Christ. And so when a component of the body of Christ is left out, we can’t be who God’s called us to be. And so when we neglect the role of the shepherd and neglect the role of the prophet or minimize them, or see them as secondary, then we’re not going to do called us to be. [00:38:44] Kayleigh: You know, we may need all of it to come together to do what God has called us to do. God is working in this church. He’s worked all through this church. He has established it and called it, and He’s going to use it. But we need to be learning how He has built it and how He framed it. For me to love one another and not elevate one gifting above another. [00:39:07] Julie: And it’s interesting too, you mentioned the office of the pastor. Um, I know as we were discussing some of this, we have one guy who’s very, I mean, actually our entire group, and I think this is probably why we’ve been able to navigate some of this. It’s it’s a really spiritually mature group. A lot of people. [00:39:26] Julie: who have been in leadership, um, which sometimes you get a lot of leaders together and it can be, you know, but this hasn’t been that way because I think people really do love the Lord. Um, and they love each other. Um, but one of the things that was brought up, um, is Is the pastor an office or is it a role and have we made it into an office and, and what we realized in the midst of that and I, you know, I, I’m like, well, that’s really interesting. [00:39:57] Julie: I would like to study that. And I find there, there’s a curiosity when you talk compassionate curiosity, I think there’s also a curiosity in, in people who have been through this kind of trauma. There’s a curiosity in, okay, what, what did we do? that we did because everybody said that’s how we’re supposed to do it. [00:40:18] Kayleigh: Yeah. [00:40:18] Julie: Yeah. Do I really have that conviction? Could I really argue it from scripture? Is this even right? And so I find even in our group, there is a, there is a, um, there’s a curiosity and maybe this is because we’re coming through and we’re in, you know, I think a later stage of healing is that now we’re like really curious about what should we be? [00:40:44] Julie: Yes. Yes. What should we be, like, we, we want to dig into what, what is a church, what should it really be, and what, why, how could we be different? Of course, always realizing that you can have the perfect structure and still have disaster. Um, it really does come down to the character of the people and, and that, but, but yeah, there’s a real, Curiosity of, of sort of, um, digging, digging into that. [00:41:10] Julie: And, and let me just, I can ask you, and, and maybe this will be a rabbit trail, maybe we’ll edit it out. I don’t know. Um, , but, but I am curious what do, what do you think of that idea that the, the pastorate may be a role that we’ve made into an office and maybe that could be part of the problem? [00:41:27] Kayleigh: I think that’s a lot of it. [00:41:28] Kayleigh: Um, because when we turn the, the pastorate into an office, we can lose the priesthood of all believers. So that I think is often what happens is that, um, you create this pastoral role where now all of the ministry falls on to the pastor. And so instead of the pastor’s role being to equip the saints for the ministry, which is what scripture says, the scripture describes a pastor as equipping the saints for the ministry. [00:41:56] Kayleigh: Now the pastor is doing the ministry, right? There’s, there’s just all of this pressure on the pastor. And that’s, that’s where I think we start to see this. The shift from the pastor being the one who is, you know, encouraging and equipping and edifying and, you know, calling up everybody to live into their role as the body of Christ where we’ve seen. [00:42:19] Kayleigh: You know, I have a soft spot for pastors. Again, I’m like, they’re all my relatives are them. I love pastors and I know some really beautiful ones who get into ministry because that’s exactly what they want to do. And so what has often happened though, is that the, the ways of our culture have begun to inform how the church operates. [00:42:40] Kayleigh: And so we saw this, you know, when, when the church started to employ business In kind of the church growth movement. So it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to grow things? Business people know how to grow things. Okay. Well, what are they doing? Right. And so now that the pastor is like the CEO, people choose their churches based on the pastor’s sermon, right? [00:43:00] Kayleigh: Well, I like how this pastor preaches. So I’m going to go to that church. Um, so some of it is. So I would say that not all of it is pastors who have like that egotistical thing within them at the beginning. Some of it is that we know that those patterns exist. But some of these men and women are genuinely just love the Lord’s people and then get into these roles where they’re all of a sudden like, wait, I, Why, why is it about me and others, this pressure to preach better sermons and the person down the road or, you know, run the programs and do all of these things instead of equipping the people to do the work of God. [00:43:38] Kayleigh: And so I think it’s, it’s about, and right, I think it’s happened internally in our churches, but I also think there’s this outward societal pressure that has shifted the pastor from this shepherding role to the CEO office. Um, And finding the, like, middle ground, right? So again, like, we can swing the pendulum one way and not have pastors. [00:44:05] Kayleigh: Or we can swing the pendulum the other way and have pastors at the center of everything. But is there a way of finding, kind of, this middle ground where people who are fairly calm and gifted and anointed by God to do rich shepherding can do it in a way that is Zen sitting that church that is equal famous saint that is calling the body of Christ to be what it is called be. [00:44:27] Kayleigh: And I guess I’m, I’m constantly over optimistic and so I’m convinced that there’s gotta be a way , that we can get to a place where pastors can live out of their giftings and live by their callings and live out of their long dreams in such a way. That leads to the flourishing health of the church and not to its destruction. [00:44:45] Julie: Yes. And, and I think if it’s working properly, that absolutely should be there. They should be a gift to the church. Um, and, and sadly we just, we haven’t seen enough of that, but that is, that is, I think the model. Um, let’s talk specifically, and we have talked, or we might not have named it, um, but some of the results of this collective trauma. [00:45:08] Julie: in a congregation. Um, let’s, let’s name some of the things. These are ways that this can, that this can play itself out. [00:45:17] Kayleigh: Sure. So when we’re talking about congregational collective trauma, one of the main results that we’ve talked about kind of in a roundabout way is this lack of trust that can happen within the congregation. [00:45:27] Kayleigh: And this can be twofold. We can talk about the lack of trust for the leadership, but it all also can be lack of trust. Just, In the congregation itself, um, this often happens, particularly if we’re looking at clergy misconduct that maybe wasn’t as widespread. So I think this is some of what you’ve kind of talked about with Willow Creek a little bit, and I’m, I wasn’t in that situation, but I’ve seen it other places where, you know, in our system, the denominational leadership removes a pastor. [00:45:56] Kayleigh: And so what can happen in a system like that is that denominational leadership becomes aware of abuse. They act on the abuse by removing the pastor. And what you have happening is kind of this, um, Betrayal trauma or this, you know, bias against believing. And so because the idea that their clergy person who they have loved and trusted, you know, shepherd them could possibly do something that atrocious. [00:46:24] Kayleigh: That idea is too devastating for them to internalize. So it feels safer to their bodies to deny it. And so what can happen is you can have a fraction of the church. that thinks it’s, you know, all made up and that there’s no truth to it. And they began to blame the denominational leadership as the bad guys or that bad reporter that, you know, the [00:46:45] Julie: gossip monger out there. [00:46:47] Julie: It’s so bad. [00:46:48] Kayleigh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you have this split. Now, sometimes it literally splits and people will leave. Um, but sometimes they don’t and they all stay. And so you have these fractions of people who believe different things about what happened. And so now there’s, there’s a lack of shared identity. [00:47:08] Kayleigh: So I would say one of the key components of collective trauma in a congregation is this mistrust, which is often connected to a lack of shared identity. And so they can’t really figure out who they are together. What does it mean for us to be a community to get there? Um, and so trauma begins to write their story. [00:47:27] Kayleigh: And so when we talk about the embodiment of trauma, one of the ways that that works in individuals, and this is like a mini neuroscience lesson that many of your listeners are probably aware of, because I think you have a very trauma informed audience. Audience, but, um, you know, that it, it makes us react out of those fight, flight, or freeze responses. [00:47:46] Kayleigh: And so that happens individually, right? So something triggers us and all of a sudden we’re at our cortisol is raised. We’re acting out of the, uh, you know, those flight flight places that happens communally too. So a community gets triggered by, you know, a pastor again, having what they think is just a creative idea, you know, but maybe it triggers that time that that pastor. [00:48:09] Kayleigh: Had a creative idea that was, you know, and ran with it without talking to anybody and just like wield the control and manipulated people. And now, all of a sudden, this pastor who thinks they just have this innocent, creative idea is now seen as manipulative. And what are they going to try to do behind our backs? [00:48:27] Kayleigh: And what are they going to try? And, and. What are they going to take from us? Right? And so trauma, trauma takes from people. And so now they’re living kind of out of this perpetual perceived fear, perceived threat, that something else is going to be lost. And so when you have a congregation that’s constantly operating out of, you know, this fight, flight, or freeze response. [00:48:52] Kayleigh: Collectively, I mean, how can we expect them to live out the mission that God has given them? Um, you know, they’re not, they’re not there. They’re not able to, um, they’re not able to relate to one another in a healthy way. And so we, we see a lack of kind of intimate relationships in these congregations, right? [00:49:09] Kayleigh: Because so the Deb Dana, who has helped people really understand the polyvagal theory, when we’re talking about, um, trauma talks about your, your, um, Nervous system, your autonomic nervous system is kind of being like a three rung ladder. And so in this three rung ladder, you have the top rung being your ventral bagel state, which is where you can engage with people in safe and healthy ways. [00:49:32] Kayleigh: And then you move down into kind of your sympathetic nervous system. And this is where you’re in that fight flight freeze and then dorsal bagels at the bottom. And in those two middle and bottom, you can’t build these deep relationships. And again, deep relationships are what make a church a church. And so if you have a congregation that’s stuck in these middle to bottom rungs of this ladder, they’re, they’re fight, flight, freeze, or they’re withdrawing from one another. [00:49:54] Kayleigh: You’re, you’re losing the intimacy, the vulnerability, the safety of these congregations to build those kinds of relationships. And so I would say that, that distrust, that lack of shared identity and that inability to build deeper kind of relationships are three kind of key components of what we’re seeing in congregations who are carrying this collective trauma. [00:50:16] Julie: And yet, if you work through that together, like I will say right now, I feel a great deal of affection for, for everyone. Uh, in our house tours because we went through that chaos together, but also it was, it was an opportunity to see love and people lay down their lives for each other. So to, to be able to see, I mean, you begin writing a new story instead of that old story that’s been so dominant, you know, that you have to tell, you have to work through. [00:50:50] Julie: Yeah, you do. And, and, and you have, you do. I love where you say, you know, people need to, to hear that from you. Yeah. I think that’s really, really important for people to have a safe place. But then at the same time, you can’t, you don’t want to live the rest of your life there. You don’t want that to define, define you. [00:51:09] Julie: Um, and that’s, that’s what’s beautiful though, is if you work through it together, now you, you’ve got a new story, right? You’ve got, you’ve got Dodd doing something beautiful. Um, among you and, and that’s what he does. [00:51:23] Kayleigh: That’s why we call our organization Restory. Um, it is a word used in trauma theory and in reconciliation studies to talk about what communities who have experienced a lot of violence have to do is they have to get to a place where they’re able to, it’s exactly what you’re talking about with your house churches doing is you guys have kind of come to a place where you’re able to ask the question, who do we want to be now? [00:51:45] Kayleigh: And this is this process of restorying. And so what trauma does is in many ways, for a while, it tries to write our stories. And for a while, it kind of has, because of the way that it’s embodied, we kind of, it has to, right? Like we have to process like, okay, I’m reacting to this. trigger because of this trauma that’s happened. [00:52:05] Kayleigh: So how do I work through that? You know, how do I name that? How do I begin to tell that story? And so we, and we have to tell the story, right? Because I mean, trauma theory has been the dialectic of traumas, but Judith Herman talks about is it’s very unspeakable because it’s horrific, but it has to be spoken to be healed. [00:52:22] Kayleigh: Right. And so with this trauma, it can be hard to speak initially. But it needs to be spoken to be healed. But once we’ve done that, once we begin to loosen the control that trauma has on us. Once we’re able to speak it out loud, and then we can get to a place individually and communally where we can start to ask ourselves, Who do we want to be? [00:52:45] Kayleigh: And who has God called us to be? And no, things are not going to be the way they were before the trauma happened. I think that’s the other thing that happens in churches is there’s a lot of misconception. That healing means restoring everything to the way it was before. And when that doesn’t happen, there’s this question of, well, well, did we, did we heal? [00:53:06] Kayleigh: And we have to remember that we’re never going back to the way it was before the trauma happened. But we can begin to imagine what it can look like now. Once we begin to integrate the suffering into our story, and we begin to ask those helpful questions, and we take away the trauma’s control, now we can ask, who do we want to be? [00:53:24] Kayleigh: And we can begin to write a new beautiful story that can be healing for many others. [00:53:29] Julie: A friend of mine who has been through unspeakable trauma, I love when she talks about her husband, because they went through this together, and she often says, he’s like an aged fine wine. You know, and I love that because to me, no, you’re not going back to who you were, but in many ways who you were was a little naive, little starry eyed, a little, you know, and, and once you’ve been through these sorts of things, it is kind of like an aged fine wine. [00:54:01] Julie: You have, you’re, you’re aged, but hopefully in a beautiful way. And, you know, I, I think you’re way more compassionate. Once you’ve gone through this, you’re way more able to see another person who’s traumatized and And to, you know, reach out to that person, to love that person, to care for that person. And so it’s a beautiful restoring. [00:54:26] Julie: And we could talk about this for a very long time. And we will continue this discussion at Restore, [00:54:33] Kayleigh: um, because [00:54:34] Julie: you’re going to be at the conference and that was part of our original discussions. So folks, if you wanna talk more to Kaleigh , come to Restore. I, I’m, I’m gonna fit you in somehow because , I’m gonna be there. [00:54:46] Julie: you’re gonna be there. But do you just have a wealth of, uh, I think research and insights that I think will really, really be powerful? And I’m waiting for you to write your book because it needs to be written. Um, but I’m working on it. , thank you for, for taking the time and for, um, just loving the body. [00:55:07] Julie: And in the way that you have, I appreciate it. [00:55:09] Kayleigh: Well, thank you. Because, you know, when I heard about your work and your tagline, you know, reporting the truth, but restoring the church, you know, I was just so drawn in because that’s what we need. The church is worth it. The church is beautiful and she is worth taking the time to restore. [00:55:24] Kayleigh: And I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing to make sure that that that happens. [00:55:28] Julie: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast and our investigative journalism, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report to support our ongoing work? [00:55:47] Julie: As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors. We mainly have you. The people who care about our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’d like to help us out, just go to Julie Roy’s spelled R O Y S dot com slash donate. That’s Julie Roy’s dot com slash donate. [00:56:07] Julie: Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy’s report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. [00:56:29] Julie: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

In this episode of Craft & Character, Steve Carter talks with author, spiritual director, and founder of the Transforming Center, Ruth Haley Barton about the importance of spiritual formation for pastoral care. Ruth Haley Barton offers up so many moments of pure gold as she talks about the soul, the art of discernment, and how she came to discover the goodness with spiritual formation decades ago. This is an important episode for any pastor and leader. If you haven't read her work, please check out Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest, Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership, Sacred Rhythms, Pursuing God's Will Together, or Life Together in Christ. BIO Ruth Haley Barton (Doctor of Divinity, Northern Baptist Theological Seminary) is founder of the Transforming Center, a ministry dedicated to strengthening the souls of pastors, Christian leaders, and the congregations and organizations they serve (www.thetransformingcenter.org). A sought-after teacher, retreat leader, and trained spiritual director, Ruth is the author of numerous books and articles on the spiritual life. Educated at Northern Seminary, the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation and Loyola University Chicago Institute for Pastoral Studies, she has served on the pastoral staff of several churches including Willow Creek Community Church and is Professor of Spiritual Transformation at Northern Seminary. EPISODE LINKS @transformingctr on Instagram www.ruthhaleybarton.com www.transformingcenter.org @steveryancarter @craft_character Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

"I am in you, and you’re in me." Listen in as Don and John chat with Megan Fate Marshman, teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. Megan shares how her partnership with the Holy Spirit empowers her to connect deeply with others and communicate with authenticity. She also discusses her books, Meant for Good and Relaxed, and how her journey through personal suffering has deepened her dependence on God and her community.

Megan Fate Marshman tells us what to do when we don't have all the things figured out: go to Jesus and tell him that we don't. And then we go to him again and tell him again. We need reminding. We are prone to think we are in control and what a gift from God that we are not.  I just finished reading an advance copy of Megan's latest book, RELAXED: WALKING WITH THE ONE WHO IS NOT WORRIED ABOUT A THING and I'd love to say that I'm totally relaxed AND not worried about a thing. But I'm more relaxed and I'm less worried. So good. Buy one for yourself (if you don't win the giveaway) and one for that friend who may be worried—oh, that's every friend, or most anyway.  Megan, a single mom of two young boys—her dear husband Randy went to be with the Lord at age 36—writes from what she is learning about grief and worry and autonomy and coming to Jesus over and over again. A knowledgeable and charismatic teacher of the Word, Megan pastors at Willow Creek Community Church, Chicago, runs the women's ministry at Hume Lake Christian Camp and is the women's pastor at Arbor Road Church, Long Beach, CA.  Megan's website Megan on IG Megan on Facebook Megan on X Buy Link   Some gems from our conversation: We don't need to do more; rather, we need to be intentional about showing love right where we are. God's gift to us is that we don't need to trust in ourselves. Risk-taking is Christlikeness because you are setting yourself up to need him and the prompts almost always lead to love. Anxiety signals me where I'm trying to get my security. We experience a sanctification gap and we go about it all the wrong way to close that gap without God. Grief has taught me to pay more attention to what really matters and less attention on those things that don't.  We are called to be God's hands and feet to anyone he brings our way.  We are not working on making a perfect family; rather on doing things right. Anxiety alerts us that something is going on in the dashboard of our soul. 

Today we have Megan Fate Marshmon on the show! If you know, you know! Megan is determined to use her life to spread hope, share truth, and celebrate others. She is finishing her Doctorate of Ministry as she serves as a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and the Director of Women's Ministries at Hume Lake Christian Camps. She also shepherds women at Arbor Road Church in Long Beach, California. We cover grief, loss, anger, sadness and what happens when life blows up and what is life like as a single parent and a widow? You don't want to miss this episode. Enjoy! Quotes:“A gift from loss: You start to care a whole lot less about things that don't matter and you care a whole lot more about things that do.” “Half of you is in heaven...just love a bunch of people.” Sanctification gap: “What do you do in the moments when you realize you are not where you should be?” Temptations of the Flesh: 1) Never going to figure it out/ despair2) Not going to care about immoral temptation3) Moral temptation, to try to just do better by myself in the weakness of the flesh Pre-order Megans Book! Megan's WebsiteMegan's IG:Megan's FB Intentional: Why Go to Church Watch on YouTube Follow us on Instagram:@intentional_parents @brook_mosser @Emosser @philmcomer @dianewcomer FREE TEXT Message Daily Devotional MERCH:Gear for the journey Grab a copy of our book:Raising Passionate Jesus Followers (Now available in audiobook!) Website: Join our Legacy Builders: Blog The Intentional Film Series

Grief can come over us like crashing waves. We most commonly experience it when we have lost a loved one, but grief is wider than that and can accompany all kinds of circumstances. It can happen at the end of a relationship, the death of a dream, or the shock of a diagnosis that you did not see coming. The loss we feel when we experience grief can feel like too much to bear on our own.My guest in this episode knows all about grief. Steve Carter is a pastor, speaker, author, podcast host, and the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. He is also the author of Grieve, Breathe, Receive.In 2018, Steve announced publicly that he was resigning from his dream job as a lead pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. The next morning as he was taking a walk to process all the thoughts and feelings tumbling around in his mind, he cried out to Jesus in desperation, begging for an answer. "What am I supposed to do now?" He expected nothing, but the silence that had overwhelmed him broke as a gentle whisper impressed three words upon his heart: grieve, breathe, receive.In this episode, you'll hear:Steve's personal journey through griefPractical lessons seasons of grief can teach usThe best way to understand and move forward through griefAnd so much more...This conversation meant so much to me and I hope it is meaningful for you as well!Show Notes: jillsavage.org/steve-carter-203Get Details and Register for The Transform WeekendCheck out our other resources: Mark and Jill's Marriage Story Marriage Coaching Marriage 2.0 Intensives Speaking Schedule Book Mark and Jill to Speak Online Courses Books Marriage Resources: Infidelity Recovery For Happy Marriages For Hurting Marriages For Marriages Where You're the Only One Wanting to Get Help Mom Resources: New/Preschool Moms Moms with Gradeschoolers Moms with Teens and Tweens Moms with Kids Who Are Launching Empty Nest...

Meredith Miller is a pastor, parent, and writer with over 20 years experience in children's ministry and curriculum. Meredith was Curriculum Director for the children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois, where she created the framework for lessons that responds to the latest research on kids and faith formation. In 2019 she and her husband Curtis started Pomona Valley Church –a church on Zoom that wants to live the one-anothers, neighbor well, and do justice. And eat. Today, she joins us to talk about her book, Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From, where we dive into things like, how to prevent instilling a moralistic faith in our kids, how to help our kids build trust in a good God as opposed to simply obedience training, and faith as a web vs. a wall. Please welcome, Meredith Miller. Meredith's Website Meredith's Book: Woven Meredith's Substack - The Great Big Bible Story Walkthrough Meredith's Podcast: Ask Away Follow Meredith on Insta → @meredithannemiller  Follow Kaitlin on Insta → @kaitlingraceelliott  Follow SWE on Insta → @so.what.else  SWE Website

Steve Carter was next in line to pastor Willow Creek Community Church, but as scandals arose around Bill Hybels Steve walked away in order to heal and care for his family. He talks about the trauma of that season, the faith it required of him and how he experienced restoration and you can too. This is a GREAT episode to share with anyone who has experienced church hurt in any facet. We need more hopeful stories like this of people who have journeyed well and done the work. Pick up his brand new book Grieve, Breathe, Receive on Amazon. About Steve Carter Steve Carter is the best selling author of The Thing Beneath The Thing, host of the Craft and Character podcast, a coach to communicators who are looking to find their unique voice or take their next step of growth in speaking and teaches regularly at churches, conferences, and various businesses around the country. He is the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and currently serves as a teaching pastor at Forest City Church. He lives outside Chicago, Illinois, with his wife and two kids. Takeaways Embrace grief and learn to sit with the pain in order to find healing and renewal. Forgiveness is a powerful gift that allows us to release bitterness and anger and experience freedom. Finding a sense of place and belonging can be a significant part of the healing process. Leaders often struggle with grieving and celebrating, but both are essential for personal growth and maturity. There is hope and a surprise waiting for leaders who are hurting, even in the midst of difficult circumstances. Quotes "Grieve what is, grieve what I thought it was gonna be, grieve how key people let me down, breathe in the new mercies, exhale all bitterness and resentment and anger, and receive what I need to learn, receive what I need to own, receive who I need to become." "Go to the desert and wait for instructions because I am... I was trying to achieve my way out of it. I was trying to figure out, okay, like, where can I go? What's a bigger city? What's a better opportunity? Because that's how I'd always handled my sadness and stress was just look to go do something more. And I thought the desert was metaphorical, but I took out my journal and just started to write similar to the donut shop and... I just wrote down the line, you can't achieve your way out of this, you can only grieve your way through it." "Trust is a mathematical formula. Safe plus consistent, again and again, over and over on repeat, makes you worthy of trust. Unsafe, consistent, again and again, over and over, makes you unworthy of trust. And safe but inconsistent, again and again, over and over on repeat, makes you unworthy of trust. The question is, are you worthy of trust?" Connect with Steve Website: https://www.stevecarter.org/ Book: https://amzn.to/3x87cnc  

Popular podcast host Steve Carter faced a tough decision in 2018 amid misconduct allegations against Willow Creek Community Church's founder, Bill Hybels. Carter, a lead pastor at the church, publicly resigned from his dream job. Struggling with grief and uncertainty, he heard a whisper urging him to "Grieve. Breathe. Receive." These words became his guiding mantra as he embarked on a journey of deep healing after enduring painful trauma.www.stevecarter.org 

Grief catches us all. One of the things I'm learning about the culture that I'm from is that we don't grieve well. We don't know how to do it. In this conversation, Steve Carter shares about his experience grieving after leaving his job at Willow Creek Community Church. He talks about the process of grieving he went through, including dealing with unforgiveness, reorienting his identity, and learning to forgive. He discusses the importance of community and walking through grief with hope. He also shares about helping his son process what happened and the importance of holding space for others in their grief journey. So join us as we learn to grieve, breathe, and receive. Steve Carter is the best selling author of The Thing Beneath The Thing, host of the Craft and Character podcast, a coach to communicators who are looking to find their unique voice or take their next step of growth in speaking and teaches regularly at churches, conferences, and various businesses around the country. His latest book Grieve, Breathe, Receive helps guide people on their unique grief journey. He is the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and currently serves as a teaching pastor at Forest City Church. He lives outside Chicago, Illinois, with his wife and two kids. Steve's Book:Grieve, Breathe, ReceiveSteve's Recommendations:The Hidden PeaceI Shouldn't Feel This WayJoin Our Patreon for Early Access and More: PatreonConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider GivSend us a Text Message. Support the Show.

How can we respond in a healthy way when our ministry world comes crashing down around us? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Steve Carter. Steve is a pastor, speaker, and author. He is the host of the Craft and Character podcast and the former Lead Teaching Pastor at Willow Creek Community Church. He currently serves as teaching pastor at Forest City Church, and his most recent book is entitled Grieve, Breathe, Receive. Together, Steve and Jason look at how to navigate disappointments and destabilizing seasons in our ministries. Steve shares from his own experiences as a pastor what God taught him about grieving, breathing, and receiving.Dig deeper into this conversation: Find the free Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, all resource links, and more, at http://PastorServe.org/networkSome key takeaways from this conversation:Steve Carter on the importance of allowing oneself to experience and process the emotions that arise during times of transition or loss: "Grief is honoring what comes up when change shows up."Steve Carter the significance of understanding and adapting to the conditions of one's environment in order to make the most of it and succeed despite the challenges: "You have to learn to live in the desert well."Steve Carter on the relevance of confronting the reality of past actions or events rather than ignoring or downplaying them: "We cannot dismiss or minimize what has happened in our history. It happened."----------------Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. Love well, live well, & lead well Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | FacebookConnect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram...

“Did you have integrity today?” That's the question that Steve Carter, author, podcaster, and former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church, pictured his son asking him when allegations of sexual harassment against Bill Hybels emerged. Carter realized he couldn't go “play church.” He had to take the allegations seriously and act with integrity, which, for him, looked like resigning. On this episode of Being Human, Cuss and Carter discuss what it looks like to have integrity when mentors and institutions fail us. They talk about the heartbreak of losing beloved communities, navigating relationships when people feel betrayed, and how difficult it is to see broken systems when inside them.  Carter shares how he has dealt with the weight of being misunderstood, the way some of his highest values were wielded against him, and what it was like to deal with public loss and accusation as an Enneagram Three. He and Cuss talk about the power of the resurrection and the two Greek words that became an anchor for Carter. And they discuss what propelled Carter to write Grieve, Breathe, Receive—a stunning memoir on grief and healing that recounts Carter leaving Willow Creek Church, entering a wilderness season, and enduring loss upon loss upon loss, from income and reputation to precious family members and more. Resources mentioned in this episode include:  Luke: Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching by Fred B. Craddock Steve Carter Craft & Character with Steve Carter Grieve, Breathe, Receive: Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us by Steve Carter The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It) by Steve Carter Willow Creek Community Church “Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs”  “Cadet Prayer” Annie F. Downs Ira Glass Camino De Santiago “What Is a Verbatim?” Compassion International “Welcoming Practice” The Worst James Harden Flops “Being Human with Steve Cuss” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Produced by Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper Produced and Edited by Matt Stevens Associate Producers: McKenzie Hill, Raed Gilliam, and Abby Perry Theme song by Dan Phelps Original Music by Andy Gullahorn Mix Engineer: Kevin Morris Graphic Design: Amy Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Did you have integrity today?” That's the question that Steve Carter, author, podcaster, and former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church, pictured his son asking him when allegations of sexual harassment against Bill Hybels emerged. Carter realized he couldn't go “play church.” He had to take the allegations seriously and act with integrity, which, for him, looked like resigning. On this episode of Being Human, Cuss and Carter discuss what it looks like to have integrity when mentors and institutions fail us. They talk about the heartbreak of losing beloved communities, navigating relationships when people feel betrayed, and how difficult it is to see broken systems when inside them.  Carter shares how he has dealt with the weight of being misunderstood, the way some of his highest values were wielded against him, and what it was like to deal with public loss and accusation as an Enneagram Three. He and Cuss talk about the power of the resurrection and the two Greek words that became an anchor for Carter. And they discuss what propelled Carter to write Grieve, Breathe, Receive—a stunning memoir on grief and healing that recounts Carter leaving Willow Creek Church, entering a wilderness season, and enduring loss upon loss upon loss, from income and reputation to precious family members and more. Resources mentioned in this episode include:  Luke: Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching by Fred B. Craddock Steve Carter Craft & Character with Steve Carter Grieve, Breathe, Receive: Finding a Faith Strong Enough to Hold Us by Steve Carter The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It) by Steve Carter Willow Creek Community Church “Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs”  “Cadet Prayer” Annie F. Downs Ira Glass Camino De Santiago “What Is a Verbatim?” Compassion International “Welcoming Practice” The Worst James Harden Flops “Being Human with Steve Cuss” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Produced by Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper Produced and Edited by Matt Stevens Associate Producers: McKenzie Hill, Raed Gilliam, and Abby Perry Theme song by Dan Phelps Original Music by Andy Gullahorn Mix Engineer: Kevin Morris Graphic Design: Amy Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special episode, the host of the Craft & Character, Steve Carter, unpacks how holy weekend is an incredible gift to anyone walking out a grief journey. Steve opens up about what led to him writing these words, what his hope is for Grieve, Breathe, Receive, and how to honor what comes up when change shows up. This is a book that will help you know what to do when life shocks us or we experience hurt, loss, death, an end to a relationship, or any form of change. Give this episode a listen and may it show you how to grieve with hope. BIO Steve Carter is the bestselling author of The Thing Beneath The Thing, host of the Craft and Character podcast, a coach to communicators who are looking to find their unique voice or take their next step of growth in speaking and teaches regularly at churches, conferences, and various businesses around the country. His next book Grieve, Breathe, Receive releases on May 7th, 2024. He is the former lead teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church and currently serves as the lead pastor at Forest City Church. Steve lives outside Chicago, Illinois, with his wife and two kids. EPISODE LINKS Books: Grieve, Breathe, Receive and The Thing Beneath The Thing Social - @steveryancarter on IG, Twitter, and Threads www.stevecarter.org @craft_character Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Discussing the non-essentials ought to help you make disciples, not hinder you from making disciples.” In this episode, Pastor Dave Dummitt from Willow Creek Community Church joins us to discuss exploring tough topics as a church and navigating non-essentials in our faith. This Episode is Sponsored by PATH As your church grows, it becomes difficult to see individuals through the crowd. It's time to transform your data into discipleship with PATH. Using PATH's clear, actionable reports to define reality, gain clarity, and know your people, you can be confident that you're maximizing your data to shepherd and care for the people in your church when they need you most. To learn more and receive a free resource on "Shepherding Tips and Ideas," visit pathengagement.com/unstuck. For the full episode transcript, links mentioned during the show, and to download the Leader Conversation Guide, visit this episode's Show Notes at theunstuckgroup.com/episode346.   Join the Conversation on Social Media If you're listening on Wednesday when the episode first releases, join the live conversation The Unstuck Group's team will be having on social media about this week's topic. We use hashtag #unstuckchurch on X. Or you can join in on Facebook.

Craig Glass joins Camden and Otis to discuss leading, legacy, and mentorship.  How do unresolved wounds affect our ability to perform as leaders?  Why is there such a huge need for mentorship among men now and what kind of impact can that mentorship have?  And what kind of life lessons can you learn while smuggling Bibles behind the Iron Curtain?  Craig, Camden, and Otis answer all these questions and more on this fantastic episode!More About Craig:Craig Glass has served as vice president of ministries at International Teams missionary agency (20 years), pastor to men at Willow Creek Community Church (4 years), and national director of field ministries at International Students Incorporated (3 years). Since 2002 he has served as founder and president of Peregrine Ministries with the mission to guide and inspire men on their life journey.He is the author of the Passage to Manhood Field Guide and Noble Journey: A Man's Quest for a Lasting Legacy. Craig and Beryl were married in 1976, have three children and six grandchildren, and live in Monument, CO. In his free time, Craig enjoys biking, golf, fly-fishing, and competitive swimming.0:03 - Intro3:10 - Unresolved Wounds 10:16 - Mentorship 16:22 - Cultural Shifts 22:30 - Need to Solve a Problem 40:47 - Fighting the Soviets47:53 - Espionage Life Lessons 53:00 - EndCraig Glasshttps://www.facebook.com/peregrineministries/https://peregrineministries.org/

Have you ever felt betrayed by someone you thought you could trust? It's a deeply painful experience that can leave you questioning not only the betrayer but also your own judgment. Trust, once broken, seems almost impossible to rebuild. My guest today, Steve Carter, experienced a series of profound betrayals at a pivotal moment in his life. In 2018, amidst misconduct allegations against Bill Hybels, founder of Willow Creek Community Church, Steve made the difficult decision to step down from his role as a newly minted lead pastor—a position he once considered his dream job. Shortly thereafter, he faced yet another personal betrayal by his own parents. Reeling from the loss of his job, his dream, and his trust in those closest to him, Steve entered a desert season guided by three words he sensed God gave to him: Grieve. Breathe. Receive. Steve's journey through loss is so powerful, so honest, and so deeply healing. Please do not miss this conversation! Here's what we cover: 2 essential ingredients for trust (12:40) Why grief is the antidote to cynicism (22:28) Confronting our attraction to patterns of narcissism (28:08) The anger high vs. the peace of forgiveness (36:25) How he hangs on to his love for the church (34:03) Purchase Grieve, Breathe, Receive by Steve Carter here. Find a full transcript and list of resources from this episode here. Thanks to our sponsors: Go to ⁠www.organifi.com/bestofyou⁠ today and use code BESTOFYOU for 20% off your order today. Head to factormeals.com/bestofyou50 and use code bestofyou50 to get 50% off! This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/BESTOFYOU and get on your way to being your best self. Go to thrivemarket.com/bestofyou for 30% off your first order, plus a FREE $60 gift! Make the switch and build a starter kit. 15% off AND free shipping when you buy a Notes starter kit at notescandle.com/bestofyou. Related Episodes: Episode 97: I Shouldn't Feel This Anxious—Insights on Trauma & Healing with Monique Koven Episode 98: I Shouldn't Feel Alone in My Grief—Why Your Grief Matters & the #1 Most Important Support For Those Who Are Grieving with J.S. Park Episode 99: I Shouldn't Feel Like My Spirit is Broken—Exploring a Broken Spirit & the Dark Night of the Soul with Christopher Cook Music by Andy Luiten Sound editing by Kelly Kramarik While Dr. Cook is a counselor, the content of this podcast and any of the products provided by Dr. Cook are not specific counseling advice nor are they a substitute for individual counseling. The content and products provided on this podcast are for informational purposes only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Former Willow Creek Executive Pastor Tim Stevens unpacks the situation at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. In a transparent conversation, Tim dissects the dynamics of abuse at Willow Creek, outlines the problem with isolated leadership, and covers how to lead when you start with zero trust. Tim and Carey also discuss how to build a new culture and find momentum as you reach the next generation.  Show Notes On The Rise Newsletter Preaching Cheat Sheet Watch on YouTube Follow @careynieuwhof Follow @theartofleadershipnetwork   This episode is sponsored by:   THE ART OF LEADERSHIP ACADEMY Inside the Art of Leadership Academy, over the last two years, I've seen thousands of leaders gain confidence and clarity in their leadership and connect with a group of leaders they can grow with. Join today at theartofleadershipacademy.com.   CHURCH.TECH With Church.Tech your church's message can go further than ever and you and your team can spend more time on what truly matters; engaging with your community and spreading the hope of Jesus. Turn your sermons into small group guides, devotionals, social media content, and more. Visit Church.Tech to get started and use code CAREY at checkout.     Brought to you by The Art of Leadership Network

HCP - Ep. 191 - Special Guest Jeff VandersteltOn this podcast Larry and Drew welcome Author and Pastor Jeff Vanderstelt. Jeff is the founder of the Soma family of Churches and Visionary Director of Saturate. Jeff has served at Churches as large as Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, and as small as the house church he currently shepherds. He has a heart for soul health and discipleship in the leadership of the church. He's just finished a new book called “180: A Return to Disciple-making”. This book is a partnership between Exponential and Jeff to help create the theme for this years conference. This podcast is a wonderful conversation around these topics and how this new book can help churches moves toward a more disciple-making culture through spiritually healthy pastors and leaders. 180: A Return to Disciple-Makinghttps://www.amazon.com/One-Eighty-Disciple-Making-Jeff-Vanderstelt/dp/1624241212/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1SWMV5P4EUPGU&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.9P9fy2Y7SBZkrt0TXRwwK3iFCdtOFfdSAjJFETozGN1A2hrk5U6cUezk9HF6Y6fuqzIGS8qBtQjvPlzvlz-5tsS6zXImpBeklyCM52O_kLVPM2mDEND9mET8_APwMPvn1kZxYPNgByiFBxLZer7qNIKlflMJY_y0lkKaUPAW7n4HospY-SzECc5Pv0JzFVh-xMpV8y7Nudvxvv2zkBjjupz6PLfSCbSVd3EhCuMWVuE.a5Pt8pTSnIBJQIByudykAJyVOP1PVTS0jUU8Rhw02io&dib_tag=se&keywords=Jeff+Vanderstelt&qid=1708024418&sprefix=jeff+vanderstelt%2Caps%2C366&sr=8-2Gospel Fluencyhttps://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Fluency-Speaking-Truths-Everyday/dp/1433546035/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1SWMV5P4EUPGU&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.9P9fy2Y7SBZkrt0TXRwwK3iFCdtOFfdSAjJFETozGN1A2hrk5U6cUezk9HF6Y6fuqzIGS8qBtQjvPlzvlz-5tsS6zXImpBeklyCM52O_kLVPM2mDEND9mET8_APwMPvn1kZxYPNgByiFBxLZer7qNIKlflMJY_y0lkKaUPAW7n4HospY-SzECc5Pv0JzFVh-xMpV8y7Nudvxvv2zkBjjupz6PLfSCbSVd3EhCuMWVuE.a5Pt8pTSnIBJQIByudykAJyVOP1PVTS0jUU8Rhw02io&dib_tag=se&keywords=Jeff+Vanderstelt&qid=1708024418&sprefix=jeff+vanderstelt%2Caps%2C366&sr=8-3Saturatehttps://www.amazon.com/Saturate-Being-Disciples-Jesus-Everyday/dp/1433545993/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1SWMV5P4EUPGU&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.9P9fy2Y7SBZkrt0TXRwwK3iFCdtOFfdSAjJFETozGN1A2hrk5U6cUezk9HF6Y6fuqzIGS8qBtQjvPlzvlz-5tsS6zXImpBeklyCM52O_kLVPM2mDEND9mET8_APwMPvn1kZxYPNgByiFBxLZer7qNIKlflMJY_y0lkKaUPAW7n4HospY-SzECc5Pv0JzFVh-xMpV8y7Nudvxvv2zkBjjupz6PLfSCbSVd3EhCuM

It's easy to compartmentalize our faith and our work – even when we feel called to the businesses we're entrusted to steward and grow.   But what happens when you actively integrate your faith into the meaningful work you're called to?   My guest on this episode of BEYOND, Steve Carter, believes it gives you an unfair advantage.    Steve was a recent guest pastor at my own church, and the message he shared several weeks ago was so compelling, so convicting, that I knew while listening that Sunday morning that I was supposed to invite him to explore this topic with us as a guest here on the show. And I'm so grateful that he said yes.   Steve Carter is a pastor, speaker, author, podcast host, sports enthusiast, and the former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. Steve is a gifted communicator and storyteller and one of my favorite parts about this conversation is to simplify what can often feel like a complex topic – what it looks like to access your faith to the extent that it truly becomes active in every part of your life – every role, every relationship, everything you do – and why, as mothers and wives and business owners, that gives us an unfair advantage.   Steve Carter is a pastor, speaker, author, podcast host, sports enthusiast, and the former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago.   On this episode of BEYOND, you'll learn:   How a major in film led Steve to a career in storytelling and ministry Why we can easily separate our faith from the work we're called to – and how we can get lost in the process The importance of trusting what others see in you beyond what you might believe about yourself when it comes to your gifts How trust in God can build safety and consistency into our businesses How the trap of a never-ending to-do list can easily lead our faith to become “another box to check off” What it looks like to stop “white-knuckling” your life and business  What shifts when you see your business not as YOURS, but as God's business that He has entrusted to you What it looks like to access and integrate the Holy Spirit into the work of motherhood and beyond How our longing for speed and efficiency has put us at odds with the Holy Spirit (and leads us to feel disconnected and unfulfilled) Why your faith is your superpower in a culture that says to work harder, try harder and do more The 5 different directions God leads us to help us grow The connection between our health, our peace and being willing to admit how much we don't know    Important links for this episode: Visit Steve Carter's website Connect with Steve on IG Listen to Steve's Podcast: Craft and Character Steve's book: The Thing Beneath the Thing I'm continuously amazed by the ways God works through our businesses to grow us both personally and spiritually, and am thankful for Steve sharing with us what it looks like to fully integrate our faith into our work life. If you're tired of spinning your wheels and you're ready for mindset and business support that will help you simplify and create the kind of life and business you're excited to wake up to, the kind that serves not only your clients but you and your family well, I want to invite you to apply for private 1:1 coaching. Working with me privately is kind of like having a business therapist, marketing strategist and personal trainer for your brain all-in-one. Your next step is to apply for coaching at beckyhoschek.com/apply. There, you'll answer some questions about your business, where you are right now and where you'd like to be moving forward, and if I'm confident I can help you get there, I'll invite you to a call where we can talk all the details and get your questions answered so that you can  make the best decision for you. Apply for private, 1:1 coaching today at beckyhoschek.com/apply.

In this podcast episode, hosts Brian Davis and Paul Romig-Leavitt welcome worship leader and coach Becky Ykema. They discuss the challenges faced by worship leaders, particularly female ones and the importance of finding supportive communities. They also touch on the impact of the pandemic on church attendance and the shift towards gig-based worship leaders. Becky shares her experiences as a coach, emphasizing the importance of personal development and mentorship in the worship community. Becky Ykema is currently a worship leader at large, serving a number of congregations through worship leading and vocal coaching in the Denver area. She is an associate with Slingshot Group, an organization committed to coaching and pairing leaders with great places of ministry. After spending many years on Willow Creek Community Church staff, she took a call as Worship Pastor at Ascent Community Church in Louisville, CO, where she served for seven years. She is a graduate of Wesley Seminary and has served in the vocational worship ministry for 17 years. She resides in Denver with her husband and two kids.Becky has a Female Worship Leader Group starting in January through Slingshot Group. Sign-ups are due in by the middle of December. Here's a link to it: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/female-worship-leader-group-coaching-tickets-676321354377

Meredith Miller is today's guest on the podcast! I loved our conversation about her story out of a "follow the rules or else" relationship with God to now helping her children and others learn about how to have a personal relationship with God. We discuss the importance of allowing our children the space to ask the hard questions and guiding them in a way that brings them closer to God and not away from faith. I believe the things we discuss are so important as we are all learning how to navigate this world we are now in and how to build on the things we are doing well in our homes and relationships with our kids and families. Enjoy this episode and go out and buy her new book today! Bio: Meredith Miller is a pastor, parent, and writer with over 20 years experience in children's ministry and curriculum. Her newest book is Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From. In 2019 she and her husband Curtis started Pomona Valley Church. Previously, she was Curriculum Director for the children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois, where she created the framework for lessons that responds to the latest research on kids and faith formation. Since 2007 she's also been involved with the work of the Fuller Youth Institute. Meredith holds a Master of Divinity from Fuller Seminary, as well as a B.A. in Religious Studies and Spanish Language & Literature from Westmont College. Anchor Verse: Hebrews 12:2 Connect with Meredith: IG: https://www.instagram.com/meredithannemiller/ https://meredithannemiller.com/ Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1546004351?tag=hacboogrosit-20 ***This podcast is a proud member of the Spark Network! It is a network of Christian podcasts that cover so many different topics!  Head over to: https://www.sparkmedia.ventures/spark-network#/ to find more amazing podcasts!!***

There have been Christians throughout history who God has called to societal activism on behalf of the poor and oppressed. And the power in which they did so was found in their inner faith practices that connected them intimately with God through Christ and His Spirit. Mae Elise Cannon is the author of Just Spirituality: How Faith Practices Fuel Social Action (IVPress, 2013). As both a historian and a Christian advocate for peace and justice in the Middle East, she explores the direct connection between Christians' personal relationship with God and their outward actions of kindness, mercy, compassion and advocacy. She looks at how several notable Christian historical figures were able to engage in their societal challenges because of their spiritual practices.  Rev. Dr. Mae Elise Cannon is the executive director of Churches for Middle East Peace and an ordained pastor in the Evangelical Covenant Church (ECC). Here is our interview with Mae Cannon.   Cannon formerly served as the senior director of Advocacy and Outreach for World Vision, as a consultant to the Middle East for child advocacy issues for Compassion International in Jerusalem, as the executive pastor of Hillside Covenant Church in Walnut Creek, California, and as director of development and transformation for extension ministries at Willow Creek Community Church. She holds an MDiv from North Park Theological Seminary, an MBA from North Park University's School of Business and Nonprofit Management, and an MA in bioethics from Trinity International University. She received her doctorate in American History with a minor in Middle Eastern studies at the University of California (Davis) focusing on the history of the American Protestant church in Israel and Palestine.  Mae Cannon is also the author of Social Justice Handbook: Small Steps for a Better World (with a forward by John Perkins) (IVPress, 2009) and the editor of A Land Full of God: Christian Perspectives on the Holy Land (Cascade Books, 2017). You can purchase these books from independent booksellers Byron and Beth Borger at Hearts & Minds Bookstore. You can order online through their secure server or call 717-246-333. Mention that you heard about this book on the Reintegrate Podcast and get 20% off. Thanks for listening! Please leave offer a review and share this podcast with your friends.  Your hosts are Dr. Bob Robinson (@Bob_Robinson_re) and David Loughney (@David_Loughney). Go to re-integrate.org for the latest articles on reintegrating your callings with God's mission and online resources for further learning. You can also find out about a Bible study book that you can use in your small group or individual devotions: Reintegrate Your Vocation with God's Mission. On Reintegrate's podcast page, you'll find more episodes and ways to email us to comment on this podcast. Music provided by Brian Donahue.

Many of us grew up in a faith environment that was rules-based. It was all about doing the right things and obeying God, “or else.” Meredith Miller believes there's a new, different way; one that focuses more on who God is and building up a relationship with a God who loves us. Thankfully, she's written a book as a guide on how to do just that!From the press release:So many parents want to pass along their faith, but know that God is so much bigger than the list of do's and don'ts they were taught about as children. They want to pass along a faith their child doesn't have to heal from. Woven is the guidebook parents have been looking for. With a deep reverence for scripture and suggested activities to help your family grow in faith together, Woven is for parents who want to go beyond a list of do's and don'ts and pass along a resilient faith based on genuine love for and trust in God.About MeredithMeredith Miller is a pastor, parent, and writer with over 20 years experience in children's ministry and curriculum.In 2019 she and her husband Curtis started Pomona Valley Church –a church on Zoom that wants to live the one-anothers, neighbor well, and do justice.  And eat.But for the 5 years prior she was Curriculum Director for the children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois, where she created the framework for lessons that responds to the latest research on kids and faith formation.  Since 2007 she's also been involved with the work of the Fuller Youth Institute.Meredith holds a Master of Divinity from Fuller Seminary, as well as a B.A. in Religious Studies and Spanish Language & Literature from Westmont College.Connect with Meredith on her website or on Instagram @meredithannemillerConnect with us!Sign up to receive a little Gospel in your inbox every Monday Morning with our weekly devotional.Check out our website for great resources, previous blog posts, and more.Get some Lady Preacher Podcast swag!Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook

Andy Peck talks to Scot McKnight, Professor of New Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lisle, IL and author of The Second Testament. They discuss why 'another translation' was needed, what leadership material Scot values, what he believes is key to understand about the kingdom of God and what he thinks went wrong at Willow Creek Community Church. The Profile is brought to you by Premier Christianity, the UK's leading Christian magazine Subscribe now from $1/month

This episode is brought to you by Riverbank Title. Inspired out of a personal, challenging experience attempting to close on a home for his family, owner & operator Preston Corp founded Riverbank Title to deliver a smooth and successful closing from start to finish. Riverbank's attention to detail and concierge level service are here to make your real estate closing process as simple and seamless as possible. Visit www.restorationgroup.co/riverbank to learn more. _____________________________________________________ John Ortberg earned his undergraduate degree from Wheaton College, and his M.Div. and Ph.D. in clinical psychology from Fuller Theological Seminary. He has also studied at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland. From 1985 to 1990 he served as senior pastor at Simi Valley Community Church, and then from 1990 to 1994 at Horizons Community Church (now Baseline Community Church) in Claremont, California. He then moved from California to Illinois to serve as a teaching pastor at Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois until 2003, when he became the senior pastor at Menlo Park Presbyterian Church, a multi-campus church in Northern California. Now, John leads the ministry Become New focused on helping people grow spiritually one day at a time through daily teaching and community.  John's wife, Nancy, is also a pastor and published author. She currently leads Transforming the Bay with Christ in San Jose, California. John and Nancy have three children: Laura, Daniel, and John III. _____________________________________________________ Download the free Integrated Business guide at www.restorationgroup.co/guide Sign up for our weekly newsletter to get valuable insights about how to lead an integrated business.  Connect with Clay on LinkedIn  Follow Restoration Group on Instagram   

Top headlines for Tuesday, July 4, 2023In this episode, the latest court ruling involving a Christian couple in Oregon who refused to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, and the subsequent implications for religious freedom and civil rights. We'll also cover the protest in Maryland where parents from various faith traditions are demanding the ability to opt their kids out of LGBT curricula that they believe contradict their religious beliefs. Then, we'll delve into the findings of an independent investigation on sexual misconduct allegations against Bill Hybels, founder of the highly influential Willow Creek Community Church, and the recommended changes to improve organizational culture at the church and associated networks. Lastly, we'll shine a spotlight on Lachune Boyd, a master of music student from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary making waves on 'America's Got Talent.' Subscribe to this Podcast Apple Podcasts Spotify Google Podcasts Overcast Follow Us on Social Media @ChristianPost on Twitter Christian Post on Facebook @ChristianPostIntl on Instagram Subscribe on YouTube Get the Edifi App Download for iPhone Download for Android Subscribe to Our Newsletter Subscribe to the Freedom Post, delivered every Monday and Thursday Click here to get the top headlines delivered to your inbox every morning! Links to the News Supreme Court vacates lower court ruling against Christian bakers | Politics News Supreme Court says Colo. can't punish Christian website designer | Politics News Muslim, Christian parents protest school LGBT curriculum | U.S. News Drag performer blames 'bigoted Christians' after Google event | U.S. News David Ashcraft named new CEO of Global Leadership Network | Church & Ministries News Counseling recommended for Bill Hybels, changes for Willow Creek after sexual misconduct investigation | Church & Ministries News Texas ministry brings clean water to polluted Kenyan slums | World News Gunmen kill pastor, abduct 7 worshipers in church attack | World News SWBTS student advances in 'America's Got Talent' | Entertainment News Students give their lives to Christ at event with Buffalo Bills | Sports News

In this episode, Dr. Eric Michael Bryant interviews Rick Shurtz of Nail It Communication who shares insights on effective teaching principles. Rick and Eric served together at Gateway Church in Austin from 2011-2015. Rick served at Willow Creek Community Church in the mid 1990s and then again starting in 2016. Our goal with The Post-Christian Podcast is to reframe, simplify, and focus on our mission to make disciples in a post Christian culture. We discuss reaching new people and raising up leaders while removing the barriers of churchianity. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/eric-bryant1/support

Meredith Miller, mom, children's pastor and soon-to-be author of a legit book coming out in August titled Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From, is with us this week. Meredith has over 20 years experience in children's ministry and curriculum. In 2019 she and her husband Curtis started a small church on Zoom that wants to live the one-anothers, neighbor well, and do justice. And eat.For the 5 years prior she was Curriculum Director for the children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, Illinois, where she created the framework for lessons that responds to the latest research on kids and faith formation.Meredith holds a Master of Divinity from Fuller Seminary, as well as a B.A. in Religious Studies and Spanish Language & Literature from Westmont College.We know that all sounds super churchy and slightly religious, but rest-assured, Meredith is a breath of fresh air when it comes to how to engage with our kids and their faith journeys. Her powerful message on this episode of our kids' belovedness as an image-bearer and how we subsequently approach our parenting is so healing. She also taps into the ways we need to heal as adults and parents from the fear and shame and guilt that has been poured on us from toxic power structures and fundamentalist religious systems. The biggest question that kids are actually wrestling with deep-down inside and we tackle on this episode is this one, "Is God a Safe Grownup?" Why does that question matter and what can we do about it?If you are holding onto your faith (and perhaps God or Jesus) with all your might, but don't really know what to do next with your kiddos, this podcast episode is really for you.You can find Meredith at the following:Instagram:  @meredithannemillerWebsite: meredithannemiller.com

Steve Carter is a pastor, author, and the former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. A gifted teacher, Steve spends his days crafting sermons, messages, blog posts, and books to encourage people in their walk with Christ. He describes his work as humbling and vulnerable—a soul-baring process that keeps him dependent, expectant, and grounded in Christ. Manda sat down with him at the table to hear more about: How he made the decision to leave Willow Creek What he's learned about ending relationships Why integrity drives everything he does and how we can learn to transition out of things well! You can learn more from Steve here and grab a copy of his book The Thing Beneath The Thing here A Longer Table Podcast is hosted by Manda Carpenter. For more, visit www.mandacarpenter.com. Big thanks to our sponsors: ABLE - code ALONGERTABLE15 for 15% off all apparel! Cozy Earth - code ALONGERTABLE for 35% off luxurious bedding & pjs!

Blaine Hogan is a writer, film and creative director, and actor. On this episode, we talk about all of those very unusual jobs, Blaine's Midwest roots, his work with celebrities like Usher and Arnold Schwarzenegger and as the less glamorous Pepto Bismol man. We also talk about the beautiful life he and God have wrestled back from the grip of abuse, addiction and trauma, a story he tells in his unflinching and poignant new memoir, Exit The Cave, Embracing a Life of Courage, Creativity, and Radical Imagination. Formerly the creative director for Willow Creek Community Church, Blaine is currently a full-time filmmaker who directs celebrities from LeBron James to Carrie Underwood. He lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with his wife, Margaret, and their three daughters. He holds a master's degree in theology and culture from the Seattle School for Theology and Psychology and has appeared in many stage productions and television shows. Find him online at BlaineHogan.com and on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok. Visit KimberlyStuart.com/podcast for more from this episode.

Mark Mittelberg is a bestselling author, international speaker, and the Executive Director of The Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University (StrobelCenter.com), which offers accredited online BA and MA degrees, as well as certificate courses. Mark recently completed the all-new book and training course, Contagious Faith: Discover Your Natural Style for Sharing Jesus with Others. Prior to that, he was the primary author of the Becoming a Contagious Christian training course (with Lee Strobel). This course was translated into more than twenty languages and helped nearly two million people around the world share Christ in natural ways. He then wrote the leadership-oriented book, Becoming a Contagious Church, which presents an innovative blueprint for church-based evangelism. Mark's published materials also include the Making Your Case for Christ training course, and The Case for Christ Daily Moment of Truth devotional (both with Lee Strobel). His book Confident Faith was the winner of Outreach Magazine's apologetics book of the year. His smaller evangelistic book, The Reason Why Faith Makes Sense, is an update of a classic that touched millions of lives — recreated by Mark for a new generation. He also wrote The Questions Christians Hope No One Will Ask (with Answers), which addresses the ten spiritual questions believers most want to avoid. Prior to that Mark collaborated with Strobel to produce The Unexpected Adventure, a story-based book designed to encourage Christians to seize everyday opportunities to talk about Jesus. Mark's published pieces have sold a total of some three million copies. Mark was the original evangelism director at Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago, and then served as Executive Vice President of the Willow Creek Association. He was also an editorial consultant and periodic guest for Lee Strobel's television show, Faith Under Fire. He and Strobel have been ministry partners for more than thirty years. After receiving an undergraduate degree in business, Mark earned an MA in Philosophy of Religion, graduating magna cum laude from Trinity International University in Deerfield, Illinois. In addition, he received an honorary Doctor of Divinity degree from Southern Evangelical Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. Mark and Heidi live near Denver, Colorado, and are the parents of Emma Jean and Matthew, both of whom serve in ministry roles. Find Missions Pulse episode #94 on our website at https://davidjoannes.com/094markmittelberg/

What holds us back from living life Whole and Holy? That's the question Steve Carter answers in his latest book, entitled The Thing Beneath the Thing. Mike sits down with pastor, author, speaker, podcaster Steve Carter to talk about those potholes in our life's journey that often keep us from seeing everything God makes available to us – His grace, peace, and wholeness.Steve Carter is a pastor, speaker, author, podcast host, sports enthusiast, and the former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. Steve's passion is to bring Jesus into everything he does. A gifted teacher, Steve spends his days crafting sermons, messages, blog posts, and books to encourage people in their walk with Christ. He describes his work as humbling and vulnerable—a soul-baring process that keeps him dependent, expectant, and grounded in Christ. Steve lives in Phoenix, AZ, with his wife, Sarah, and their two kids.

What holds us back from living life Whole and Holy? That's the question Steve Carter answers in his latest book, entitled The Thing Beneath the Thing. Mike sits down with pastor, author, speaker, podcaster Steve Carter to talk about those potholes in our life's journey that often keep us from seeing everything God makes available to us – His grace, peace, and wholeness.Steve Carter is a pastor, speaker, author, podcast host, sports enthusiast, and the former lead teaching pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in Chicago. Steve's passion is to bring Jesus into everything he does. A gifted teacher, Steve spends his days crafting sermons, messages, blog posts, and books to encourage people in their walk with Christ. He describes his work as humbling and vulnerable—a soul-baring process that keeps him dependent, expectant, and grounded in Christ. Steve lives in Phoenix, AZ, with his wife, Sarah, and their two kids.

Mother & Daughter duo Nancy and Samantha Beach are both leaning into their Enneagram number by tackling one of the most audacious goals possible: addressing the mass exodus from the church, and working to make it more inclusive.  As a millennial, Samantha suspects there may be a disconnect within the generations when it comes to messaging: “We're seeing this all across society, all the -isms, right? Racism, sexism, homophobia, all these things. And, I think my friends just wanna know, is the church having these conversations too?” In this episode, we chat about how to create a healthy dialogue between people of different views and age groups, and how working together on that message was the best way to model community for those in the church:  “The texture of community is vital. There's something different about confessing sins together…singing together, even learning together in a room side by side. Then there's something about the conversation before and after, that can happen.” — Nancy Beach (3w4) serves as a leadership coach with theSlingshot Group and on  the teaching team at Soul City Church in downtown Chicago. Previously, Nancy served as the programming director at Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago. She is also the author of An Hour on Sunday and Gifted to Lead. Nancy and her husband Warren have two adult daughters, Samantha and Johanna. Samantha Beach Kiley (3w2) is a writer and performer working at the intersection of art and faith. Samantha's creative work has appeared in theatres, churches, and non-profit spaces. She has taught at Northwestern's National High School Institute and Rocky Mountain Repertory Theatre, where she is the co-education director. She and her family have recently moved to Raleigh, NC where Samantha is associate pastor at Church on Morgan in Raleigh. Check out their new book, Next Sunday: An Honest Dialogue About the Future of the Church. To learn more about Nancy Beach, follow her on Twitter, or visit her website. To learn more about Samantha Beach Kiley, follow her on Twitter, or visit her website.

Blaine hogan is a writer, film and creative director and actor. He is the former creative director for Willow Creek Community Church and is currently a full-time filmmaker living in Atlanta, Georgia. His recent memoir titled Exit The Cave: Embracing A Life of Courage, Creativity and Radical Imagination is a brutally honest recounting of his struggle with addiction and the unexpected gift of hitting rock bottom. In this episode, Blaine and I talk about his background as an actor, the relationship between creativity and his journey of recovery and the ongoing process of finding wholeness. Patrons of the podcast can enjoy additional interview segments. Submit your poems to the BRIGHT WINGS poetry contest for a chance to appear on the Makers & Mystics podcast and publication in Ekstasis Magazine.

On today's episode, Alan interviews author and spiritual director Ruth Haley Barton about why we desperately need Sabbath today, how her sabbatical changed her and why rest is so complex AND so vital today. About Ruth Haley Barton   Ruth Haley Barton (Doctor of Divinity, Northern Baptist Theological Seminary) is founder of the Transforming Center, a ministry dedicated to strengthening the souls of pastors, Christian leaders and the congregations and organizations they serve. [www.thetransformingcenter.org] A sought-after teacher, retreat leader and trained spiritual director, Ruth is the author of numerous books and articles on the spiritual life. Educated at Northern Seminary, the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation and Loyola University Chicago Institute for Pastoral Studies, she has served on the pastoral staff of several churches including Willow Creek Community Church and is Professor of Spiritual Transformation at Northern Seminary. Connect with Ruth Books Transforming Center Purchase A Dozen Secrets to More Effective Leadership https://bit.ly/3TEVBlv Schedule a complimentary breakthrough coaching session www.stayforth.com/coaching    

Nancy serves as a leadership coach with the Slingshot Group and on the teaching team at Soul City Church in downtown Chicago. Previously, Nancy served as the programming director at Willow Creek Community Church in suburban Chicago. She is also the author of An Hour on Sunday and Gifted to Lead. Nancy and her husband Warren have two adult daughters, Samantha and Johanna.   Samantha is a writer and performer, and an associate pastor at a church in Raleigh, North Carolina. Samantha's creative work has appeared in theatres, churches, and non-profit spaces. She has taught at Northwestern's National High School Institute and Rocky Mountain Repertory Theatre, where she is the co-education director with her husband, Will.   They are the authors of the new book Next Sunday: An Honest Dialogue About the Future of the Church   **** you can get 30% off their book by clicking the link above and using the code MUCHMORE Code valid until 10/26/22 ****   Take a few minutes to meditate on Acts 2:42-47. This passage gives us details about how the first church community lived and worshipped together. And then listen in to this conversation where we unpack the spiritual discipline of the Church and why it matters to our faith journey. Some highlights from our conversation: We talk about what why they wrote the book. And we hear from Samantha's perspective what it was like writing a book with her mom. We discuss why the spiritual practice of engaging with a church community is different than other practices. And why is it critical in forming us as followers of Jesus. We talk about what threatens the church today – and what our role is in helping curb this threat. We talk about the brave and hard decision Nancy made to call our abusive behavior at her previous church, Willow Creek Community Church. And we also get to hear Samantha's perspective on how that impacted her faith journey and her relationship with the Church. We talk about being a woman in ministry and how the abuses that are rising to the surface regularly could create a knee-jerk reaction to women serving in the church. Finally, we talk about being hurt by the church and what some next steps could be for those who have been wounded.   You can follow Nancy on Twitter: @NancyLBeach You can follow Samantha on Twitter: @BeachSamantha Or visit her website at https://www.samanthabeach.work/  

I know that you are a woman who wants to live with intentionality and presence. You want to show up for your people, and you don't want to miss the good that God offers you right this very minute.  And yet… we can't focus on where we are now because we're thinking about that hard conversation we need to have next week, OR we are thinking about how unkind and mean to our mother we were our senior year of high school. So how can we stay present? How do we leave distracted living behind? Jeanne and I talk through How to know you're living a distracted life Whether you can trust your emotions And what it means to be present in your real life. Key Quotes “God is like, ‘I made you the air traffic controller of your mind. You do not need to clear every thought for landing.'” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “A thought is harmless until we believe it.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “I'm learning to work from love instead of for love.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “‘No' is a complete sentence.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “Resentment in a relationship is a fast destroyer.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “It is delightful to be in integrity in the ‘yes's' we give to one another because we can really live out of that radical grace.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “It's impossible to actually love people well if you haven't learned how to love yourself.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “Learning how to pay attention to ourselves is what's going to give us the ability to know how to pay attention well to others.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “You deny an emotion, you stuff an emotion, it's going to come out, and it usually comes out sideways.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “Denial is the worst kind of lie; it's the lie you tell yourself.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “Your body is actually a really faithful vessel to communicate what emotions are really going on inside you.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “Worry is just living in a not-yet that's worse than your now.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “The ZIP code of God is the present.” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens “What are you sensing in your body? What are you feeling in your heart? What are you thinking in your mind?” - Pastor and author Jeanne Stevens As Mentioned in the Podcast The FCC requires that I tell you that I'm an Amazon Affiliate, which means I earn a bit of commission on each sale. But don't worry, there's no added cost to you! Jeanne Stevens's What's Here Now? Mind Jogger app About Jeanne Stevens To help us in today's conversation, pastor, speaker, and author Jeanne Stevens joins the show. Jeanne is the founding and co-lead pastor of Soul City Church in Chicago, one of America's fastest-growing urban churches. Before starting Soul City Church, she was on the pastoral staff at Willow Creek Community Church and North Point Community Church.  Jeanne's passion is to help people wake up to their purpose as they pursue a life of wholehearted freedom. Jeanne is the author of the newly-released best-selling book, What's Here Now? She lives in Chicago with her husband, Jarrett, and their two children. Here's how to connect with Jeanne  Website Instagram Here's how to connect with Jill Website  GraceInRealLifePodcast.com  Instagram  Facebook group  Facebook page Subscribe to Jill's weekly “the good + the grace” email 

On today's episode, Alan has a great interview with Nancy Ortberg about spiritual disciplines and why there may be a better term simply a discipline. About Nancy Nancy Ortberg served as a teaching pastor for eight years at Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois. During that time she led Network, a ministry that helps people identify their spiritual gifts and find a place of service in the church, and Axis, a weekly gathering for the eighteen- to twenty-something generation. She is a founding partner of Teamworx 2, a business and leadership consulting firm that provides fast-paced, practical, and compelling sessions to leaders and their teams. Teamworx 2 works with businesses, schools, nonprofits, and churches to address issues of organizational effectiveness and teamwork. Nancy is a gifted communicator who is passionate about helping people connect what they believe with their everyday lives. She is currently the CEO of Transforming the Bay with Christ, a non-profit organization working to catalyze a holistic gospel movement in the San Francisco Bay Area. Nancy is the author of Looking for God: An Unexpected Journey through tattoos, tofu, & pronouns and Unleashing the Power of Rubber Bands, lessons in non-linear leadership. She and her husband, John, live in the Bay Area and have three children. Connect with Nancy Website Book Podcast Level your leadership in 2022 Right Side Up Collective Schedule your FREE breakthrough coaching session

For Jeanne Stevens, it didn't take long to see herself in her Enneagram type. But it took the experience of facing three deep losses in a short period of time to finally learn how to process—and ultimately let go—of grief, freeing her up to truly live in the present.  In today's episode, Jeanne shares how a childhood experience led her to believe a narrative about her life that no longer serves her.  She also shares the ways she's learned to live in the present through noticing and naming what's happening around her, asking and answering the all-important question: "What's Here Now?"  Jeanne Stevens is the founding and co-lead pastor of Soul City Church in Chicago, one of America's fastest growing urban churches. Prior to starting Soul City Church, Stevens was on the pastoral staff at Willow Creek Community Church and North Point Community Church. A sought-after speaker, leader, and writer, Jeanne's passion is to help people wake up to their purpose as they pursue a life of wholehearted freedom. She lives in Chicago with her husband, Jarrett, and their two children.

Jeanne Stevens is the founding and co-lead pastor of Soul City Church in Chicago, one of America's fastest growing urban churches. Prior to starting Soul City Church, Stevens was on the pastoral staff at Willow Creek Community Church and North Point Community Church. A sought-after speaker, leader, and writer, Jeanne's passion is to help people wake up to their purpose as they pursue a life of wholehearted freedom. She lives in Chicago with her husband, Jarrett, and their two children. What's Here Now? will be available nationwide May 17, 2022 To learn more about Jeanne and puchase her new book, please visit jeannestevens.com

Hello and welcome! Today I am joined by the amazing speaker, leader, and writer, Jeanne Stevens. Let me just say that I waste no time at all in this episode by asking her all of my many questions about her trek up Mt. Kilimanjaro, You heard that right… Mt. Kilimanjaro! That's so amazing! I asked the questions, and she delivered my friends… from hilarious to deeply personal thoughts; she shared all the details with us about what God was doing in her in the midst of this life-changing experience. And interestingly enough, Jeanne shares how she wonders if her book didn't actually start to take shape during her experiences on Mt. Kilimanjaro.  Her soon-to-release book is called What's Here Now?, and I just love the subtitle - How to stop rehashing the past, rehearsing the future, and start receiving the present. So good. I promise you don't want to miss listening in to hear Jeanne teach us how to embrace the present moment and all that God has for us here, now. Jeanne Stevens is also the founding and co-lead pastor of Soul City Church in Chicago, one of America's fastest-growing urban churches. Prior to starting Soul City Church, Stevens was on the pastoral staff at Willow Creek Community Church and North Point Community Church. Jeanne's passion is to help people wake up to their purpose as they pursue a life of wholehearted freedom. She lives in Chicago with her husband, Jarrett, and their two children. What's Here Now will be available nationwide on May 17, 2022.  Listen in to learn more about: Valuable questions to ask ourselves as a way to come into our “now” moments often throughout the day,  How the present is where God lives, and it is where God invites us to live with Him. The differences between our automatic self and our authentic self.  Favorite quotes: ~ When things don't go the way you believe they should go, it is packed with all the very best learning.  ~ It was such a great inner teacher for me to not make it to the top and to unwind all of what that meant in my life. ~We are so inclined to think about what happened, to go to the ‘what was, the what ifs and all I had was what IS' ,this present moment - here on the mountain. And the thing to do each day was to put one foot in front of the other and to be present with that. ~I was doing the work of God but the work of God was deteriorating in me. ~What I began to realize and recognize in my own life  was that the places  where I was most hanging out were in the past and in my future. I was all about rehashing things that already happened or rehearsing things that had not yet happened and I wasn't allowing myself to be present to this NOW moment.  ~I need to locate myself to this location and check into this present moment. In this episode I answered this question: How can I calm myself down when I am feeling stressed so often? (44:17) Links to great things we discussed:  Mindjogger - App Jeanne Stevens - Website Jeanne Stevens - Instagram  Holy Spirit Come Song - Patrick Mayberry Inventing Anna - TV Series The Dropout - TV Series  I guess I haven't learnt that yet - Shauna Niequist Book  Amazon - Ziploc bag organizer Amazon - Milk Frother Confident Motherhood Community Hope you loved this episode! Be sure to subscribe in iTunes and slap some stars on a review! :) xo, Alli