Podcast appearances and mentions of Willow Creek

Panning for Gold in Bigfoot CountryA lifelong outdoorsman from a Texas cattle-ranch background (former pro rodeo rider, music teacher, avid camper, fisherman, hiker, and fossil/rock collector) recounts two eerie, unexplained experiences that ultimately convinced him Bigfoot is real. While renting a remote 26-acre cabin outside Kerrville, Texas, he regularly fed local wildlife. For several nights he heard loud slapping/banging on the cabin walls; one night the impact was so violent it shook pictures on the wall beside his bed. His dogs were terrified. A trail camera later captured a large, shadowy face peering through the brush exactly where the noises occurred. Around the same time, a reported Bigfoot sighting happened just eight miles away. After moving to Santa Fe, New Mexico, he had a similar feeling of being watched while alone with his dogs on the remote Holy Ghost Trail (an area locals call haunted); the dogs bolted back to the Jeep in fear. In March 2021, during a solo gold-panning trip to Willow Creek in the Santa Fe National Forest, he discovered a set of enormous fresh footprints paralleling the creek—16 inches long, 5 inches wide, with a 4.5-foot stride. His dogs froze, staring into the brush; he felt intensely watched. He measured and photographed the prints (with his foot for scale) before racing back to his truck. Subsequent research revealed dozens of Bigfoot reports in both the Texas Hill Country and northern New Mexico locations where he had lived and hiked, including one near his old cabin on the exact night of the slapping incident. A hunter had also gone missing in the Willow Creek area, later featured on a TV show. Now living on the Texas coast (where sightings are also reported), he remains an enthusiastic outdoorsman but never hikes or camps without a firearm and keeps a close eye on his dogs. Though he never had a clear visual (Class A) sighting, the cumulative evidence has made Bigfoot “always on his radar.”Join my Supporters Club for $4.99 per month for exclusive stories:https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/what-if-it-s-true-podcast--5445587/support

Apply to Join Churchfront Premium Apply to Join Churchfront Pro Free Worship and Production Toolkit Shop Our Online Courses Join us at the Churchfront Conference Follow Churchfront on Instagram or TikTok: @churchfront Follow on Twitter: @realchurchfront Gear we use to make videos at Churchfront Musicbed SyncID: MB01VWQ69XRQNSN   Here are the podcast notes: Churchfront Podcast — Erwin McManus Lead Pastor, Mosaic Church (Los Angeles) | Author, The Seven Frequencies of Communication Guest background: Erwin McManus has led Mosaic in LA for 35 years, building a congregation averaging in its twenties across 40+ nationalities. He's also an author, speaker, and has been a longtime participant in the Global Leadership Summit at Willow Creek. Key Topics What holds church leaders back The most common internal limitation isn't skill or resources — it's the lack of felt permission. Pastors are often communal and loyal by nature, which also makes them dependent on someone saying "it's okay to go for it." The church culture tends to withhold permission rather than grant it. This is a big reason conferences are so magnetic — they're not primarily about information, they're about permission receiving. People go to be in a room where they feel free to dream, risk, and believe. Erwin said a large part of his life's work has been giving people permission: to dream big, to risk, to try low-percentage ideas, and to fail without that defining their worth. Giving permission downward in the org chart Leaders often receive permission at a conference and then come back and tell their team what to do — which is not the same as giving permission. True permission-giving means creating space for people to grow, develop, dream, and execute in their own way. Key principle: hold tight to where you're going, hold loosely to how you get there. Someone can execute at a high level and still do it differently than you would — and that's okay. "It's All About People" vs. "You Can't Take Everyone With You" (from Mind Shift)McManus intentionally places these as Chapter 1 and Chapter 3 as a juxtaposition. Most leaders lean hard toward one and neglect the other. His advice: read both, figure out which one resonates more, then go apply the other one. That tension is where relational elegance lives. When people leave, they attack your character At Mosaic, after major style and culture shifts, the people who left rarely said "I don't like the music." They attacked Erwin's character because it made them the hero of their story. He found the exceptions refreshing — the people who were honest ("the church is too young," "too diverse," "too evangelistic") made it easy to respond. His approach: when you bring clarity as a leader, you're giving people the gift of choice. If they hate who you are now, they're going to really hate who you're becoming — so this is actually a good time to part ways. "If you're everything, you're nothing." The white interior at Mosaic Hollywood During the 18-month pandemic shutdown, Aaron McManus pitched painting everything white — stage, speakers, walls. No precedent existed for it. The idea was: when people come back, we don't want them having a nostalgicexperience — we want them going forward. The white space became a blank canvas for projection and lighting in every direction. It's now been widely imitated. (They did the same thing at their current Pasadena theater space, which was the longtime home of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.) The Seven Frequencies of Communication The seven frequencies are a framework for understanding how people communicate and how they're heard — not just outwardly but internally, since your inner voice shapes the health of your soul. The frequencies: Commander, Challenger, Healer, Motivator, Professor, Seer, Maven. This isn't a static identity — it's a dynamic range you can access. The goal is mastery over your frequencies, not just defaulting to your primary one. Every frequency also has a shadow — the dark version of the same trait. Commander → Dictator. Seer → Perfectionist. Challenger → Manipulator. Motivator → Performer. We tend to access our shadows with zero effort and have to work to access the authentic frequency. That's true of all positive human characteristics: courage, forgiveness, integrity all require work. Their negative counterparts (fear, bitterness, dishonesty) require nothing. Practical example: Erwin's wife Kim is a Commander. 42 years of "turn off the lights and lock the doors" instead of "I love you." He learned to translate that as I love you, keep me safe. His daughter Mariah is a Challenger — she's always trying to elevate him, but it reads as reprimand. Understanding the frequency means getting offended less. Hire for character, not for frequency When Jake asked whether leaders need Commander or Challenger to run a department, Erwin's answer was simple: if the character is right, the frequency will work itself out. A high-Motivator leader who doesn't have Commander will still make people want to achieve for them — and the team will learn to push for clarity on execution. Environmental health matters more than frequency profile. Commanders and competency Commanders have competency as a core value. If you move a Commander into a new role without giving them enough context, resources, and framing, they won't feel like they're being trusted — they'll feel like they're being set up to fail. The key: make sure they feel equipped, not just trusted. "He just wants to make sure he has enough swords." Seers in leadership Many megachurch pastors are Commander-Seer combinations. The risk for Seers is confusing movement with momentum — pivoting sideways to get around an obstacle, while the team thinks the direction has changed entirely. The Seer knows they're still heading north; they forgot to communicate why they went east first. Solution from their team's side: instead of assuming the vision changed, ask "this feels like a direction change — is this a strategic move to get there faster? Help me communicate it well." Churchfront "Captive Consultant" segment Erwin's advice for Churchfront: since they're committed to serving churches exclusively, look for where churches are growing fastest — new residential development, emerging demographics — and think about what a scalable package looks like for smaller churches. The message is too important not to be heard clearly, which makes sound and AV integration genuinely mission-critical work. He also noted that once a building is built, the acoustic future is largely set — making early architectural involvement from integrators essential. Book/Resource mentioned: The Seven Frequencies of Communication — includes an assessment on their website.  Also mentioned: Mind Shift by Erwin McManus.

The 1986 shooting of 16-year-old twin sisters Jill and Julie Hansen stunned the small town of Willow Creek, California. The investigation into who shot the girls and set fire to the Hansen family home is marked by twists and turns, with evidence ultimately pointing back to a suspect close to the family. Did tunnel vision cause investigators to overlook critical pieces of evidence? Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit:  https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/murdered-jill-and-julie-hansen/Did you know you can listen to this episode ad-free? Join the Fan Club! Visit https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/fanclub/ to view the current membership options and policies.Don't miss out on all things Crime Junkie!Instagram: @crimejunkiepodcast | @audiochuckTwitter: @CrimeJunkiePod | @audiochuckTikTok: @crimejunkiepodcastFacebook: /CrimeJunkiePodcast | /audiochuckllcCrime Junkie is hosted by Ashley Flowers and Brit Prawat. Instagram: @ashleyflowers | @britprawatTwitter: @Ash_Flowers | @britprawatTikTok: @ashleyflowerscrimejunkieFacebook: /AshleyFlowers.AF Text Ashley at 317-733-7485 to talk all things true crime, get behind the scenes updates, and more! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

When hiring a new church tech director, should you look for the person with the most technical knowledge or the best leadership potential? And if you are currently in the role, which skill set should you be developing first?In this episode, we are joined by Max Brown (formerly of Willow Creek Church) to tackle the age-old debate of Competence vs. Character. Max shares his experience running production at one of the most influential churches in the country, revealing the reality of their team size and workflows.In this episode you'll hear: 0:00 Blake's Beach Blunder4:45 Max Brown (Former Willow Creek) Joins9:00 Principles of Leading Church Production13:00 Debate: Developing Leadership vs. Technical Skills22:00 Hiring Strategy: Character vs. Competence?28:30 Inside Production at Willow Creek Church32:20 Can You Run a Sunday Service with Just Tracks?34:45 Willow Creek's Production Team Size46:20 Is Church Production an Art or a Science?51:30 Tech TakeawayGet Toby's new book "Sacred Spaces, Modern Production" here. Resources for your Church Tech Ministry Sell Us Gear: Does your church have used gear that you need to convert into new ministry dollars? We can make you an offer here. Buy Our Gear: Do you need some production gear but lack the budget to buy new gear? You can shop our gear store here. Connect with us: Sales Bulletin: Get better deals than the public and get them earlier too here! Early Service: Get our best gear before it goes live on our site here. Instagram: Hangout with us on the gram here! Reviews: Leaving us a review on the podcast player you're listening to us on really helps the show. If you enjoyed this episode, you can say thank you with a review!

The Filthy Spoon Podcast episode covers sponsor shoutouts (Willow Creek, Shannon Kelly, Tule Creek Hunting Outfitters, Snook Family Sporting Dogs, Duck Chugger and more), a season recap and the launch of the Filthy Spoon Co-OP  Jon and Robert discuss blind teardown, high water and hunting conditions, upcoming events including the Sacramento SCI banquet (use code SPOON2026), gear talk, dog training/boarding, and plans for next season.

Willow Creek – warum das für mich wichtig ist Wir sind gestern von Willow Creek zurückgekommen. Willow Creek ist ein Kongress ähm bei dem es um Leiterschaft geht. Und 2014 habe ich gestern mal nachgeschaut, war mein allererster Willow Cree Kongress damals in Leipzig und ich habe mich gestern auf der Rückfahrt so ein bisschen gefragt, warum ist Willow für mich so wichtig geworden? Als ich 2014 das erste Mal dabei war, da war ich gerade so einen Jahr lang […]

A late-night drive through Northern California leads into something unforgettable.In this episode of Bigfoot Society, a retired California Department of Corrections employee describes what happened while traveling Highway 199 through Del Norte County, near the Smith River corridor, just south of the Oregon border. The road winds through steep canyon walls and tight curves, a place where visibility is limited and the forest feels close on all sides.The witness recalls observing a large upright figure moving along the roadside, with enough time to notice how it walked, how it carried itself, and how it filled the space around it. The encounter stayed with him, and over the years he began recognizing how often the same stretch of road appears in other reports.The episode expands outward into surrounding regions, including Bluff Creek, Willow Creek, Brookings, Oregon, Curry County, and the Trinity Alps. Hunters, truck drivers, and longtime residents share accounts tied to these locations, involving tracks in fresh snow, missing game, nighttime activity, and unexpected encounters deep in familiar terrain.This conversation focuses on firsthand experiences and the places where they occur, forming a quiet pattern across Northern California and Southern Oregon.Listeners interested in detailed eyewitness testimony and recurring locations will find this episode worth hearing in full.Contact Doug here: brookingsharbordad@yahoo.com

Willow Creek pro Carl Sarahs joins the live show on ESPN 700 to kick off the new year. Utah Golf Hall of Famer Guy Yocom reminisces on Tiger's life so far. We catch up with Utah Section PGA Player of the Year Zach Johnson, and get to know John Scott of College Coaches Connection. Sponsored by Goldenwest Credit Union.  

This is not a show I ever planned to do. In all my years of podcasting, I've never felt compelled to look back and take stock of where we've been. But twenty twenty-four and twenty twenty-five have been different. These years have been brutal for our community, and I couldn't stay silent any longer. We lost giants. Real giants. Men who shaped the very foundation of modern Sasquatch research and carried the torch forward into the twenty-first century. Tonight, I'm setting aside whatever differences might have existed to honor what they gave us and acknowledge that we've lost some truly important figures.Doctor Jeff Meldrum passed away in September of twenty twenty-five after a brief battle with brain cancer. He was sixty-seven years old. The full professor of anatomy and anthropology at Idaho State University gave our community something precious: legitimacy. With his collection of over three hundred footprint casts and his landmark book Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science, he picked up where Grover Krantz left off and continued the tradition of academic rigor in a field that desperately needed it.I had the privilege of sitting down with Jeff just a few weeks before he passed, and that conversation will stay with me forever.Henry Franzoni died on August twenty-second, twenty twenty-four, also at sixty-seven. If Meldrum brought scientific credibility to Bigfoot research, Henry brought the internet. Back in nineteen ninety-three, he created the first Bigfoot website and the first online discussion group, the Internet Virtual Bigfoot Conference. From that foundation grew pretty much every Bigfoot organization and website you see today. I interviewed Henry about a year before he passed, and afterward he sent me a signed copy of his book, Failing in a Cooler Way: Why I Never Found Bigfoot. That title tells you everything you need to know about who Henry was as a person.Steven Streufert, owner of Bigfoot Books in Willow Creek, California, is also gone now. Steven was an institution, a historian and scholar who knew the stories, the players, and the timeline of how this phenomenon evolved from local legend to international sensation. He was a key member of the Bluff Creek Project, the team that rediscovered the exact location where Patterson and Gimlin filmed their famous footage in nineteen sixty-seven. Steven and I had our public disagreements in his Facebook group, but that's what a community of researchers should look like. We can all have our opinions and still show mutual respect for one another.Beyond the deaths, we lost places too. The Bigfoot Discovery Museum in Felton, California, closed its doors after twenty years. And in December of twenty twenty-four, two men from Portland died from exposure in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest while searching for Sasquatch on Christmas Eve.I explore the legacies of these three researchers, discuss the current state of Sasquatch research, examine the Patterson-Gimlin film at fifty-seven years, address what the skeptics say, talk about the nearly one thousand witnesses I've interviewed over almost forty years, and reflect on the lessons we can learn from the men we lost. I also share a word about safety for anyone venturing into the wilderness in pursuit of this mystery.The disagreements don't matter. The bickering doesn't matter. What matters is the work. What matters is the pursuit. These men spent their lives investigating something that most of society considers a joke, and they did it because they believed the truth was worth pursuing. Their torches have been passed. We'll do our best to carry them forward.Leave Brian A Voicemail Get Our FREE NewsletterGet Brian's Books Leave Us A VoicemailVisit Our WebsiteSupport Our SponsorsBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/sasquatch-odyssey--4839697/support.

Send us a text and chime in!Drivers traveling on Willow Creek Road on Wednesday may have noticed a stronger than usual police presence. The Prescott and Prescott Valley Police Departments, along with the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office, joined forces as part of the Tri City Task Force to focus enforcement efforts on this busy corridor. Throughout the operation, officers conducted 105 traffic stops. These stops resulted in 69 speeding citations and 3 excessive speed citations. The highest speed recorded was 70 miles per hour in a 45 mile per hour zone, highlighting the continued need for education and enforcement in this area. The Tri City Task... For the written story, read here >> https://www.signalsaz.com/articles/what-caused-the-heavy-police-presence-on-willow-creek-road/Check out the CAST11.com Website at: https://CAST11.com Follow the CAST11 Podcast Network on Facebook at: https://Facebook.com/CAST11AZFollow Cast11 Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/cast11_podcast_network

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a firm that partners with churches across the country to design and build facilities that amplify ministry impact. With more than 15 years of experience in church architecture, project management, and ministry leadership, Aaron and his team help churches navigate complex building challenges while staying focused on mission. Is your church facing growing pains—crowded lobbies, full parking lots, or overwhelmed kids' spaces—but unsure how to move forward? Aaron shares practical insights on how to approach facility planning strategically, align vision with budget, and avoid the costly mistakes that can slow down momentum. Overcoming the overwhelm. // When churches consider expansion or renovation, leaders often feel paralyzed by the process. Questions about cost, zoning, design, and disruption quickly pile up. Too often, churches jump straight to hiring an architect before defining their real needs. Instead, churches should first clarify what's working, what's broken, and what's next before anyone draws plans. Start with scope and budget. // The two guardrails of every successful project are scope (what you're building) and budget (what you can spend). Aaron warns that skipping this step often leads to beautiful drawings that churches can't afford. Risepointe begins with a Needs Analysis, an on-site deep dive into the church's DNA, culture, and challenges. The team listens to staff, studies how people use the building, and identifies bottlenecks—whether it's the children's hallway, lobby congestion, or limited parking. Only then do they define the right-size project and realistic cost range. The power of early engagement. // Most churches wait too long to start planning. Zoning approvals, fundraising, and construction all take longer than expected, especially in urban areas. Waiting too long forces rushed design work, unclear budgets, and lost ministry opportunities. You don't have to build everything at once. Start with a plan that captures the next few wins—like improving your lobby or kids' check-in—while preparing for long-term growth. Knowing when it's time. // Aaron says early warning signs include maxing out your primary service, overflowing kids' spaces, and parking lots at capacity. Many pastors misjudge space needs because they see the auditorium every Sunday but rarely experience the parking or early childhood chaos firsthand. Evaluating your entire Sunday experience—entry to exit—reveals where capacity problems really begin. Aligning buildings with ministry models. // Every church facility reflects a ministry philosophy—but those philosophies evolve. Where there used to be 40-year ministry cycles, now they are closer to 10 to 20. Churches shaped by the seeker-sensitive movement, for example, are now adapting to relational, community-driven models. Spaces that once emphasized rows and stages now need more environments for conversations, mentoring, and connection. A free resource for leaders. // To help churches begin the conversation, Aaron's team created a free guide called “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build.” The resource walks through key questions every church should answer before launching a building project—from clarifying vision and budget to preparing for change. You can download it and schedule a free consultation at risepointe.com/unseminary. To learn more about Risepointe's work helping churches align facilities with mission, visit risepointe.com/unseminary or follow Risepointe on Instagram for inspiration and project stories. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, across the country, we keep hearing about churches that are growing and we’re seeing swelling attendance and that’s good. Some of that is like a platinum problem though. It generates other issues that we have to think about. And so what what I did was pull on a friend of mine, Aaron Stanski, he’s the founder and CEO of Risepointe. He’s got 15 plus years of church design, leadership and project management and experience. Rich Birch — If you don’t know Risepointe, where have you been? You’re living under a rock. They’re church architects and designers. They have years of experience working with churches like yours, schools and nonprofits, and they offer a wide range wide variety of services, including architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, and so much more. Aaron is, I like Aaron not just because he actually has got incredible skills. His team’s got incredible skills, but he really actually wants to help churches like you. And so Aaron, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I’m glad to be here, Rich. Rich Birch — It’s going to be good. Give give people, you’ve been on a couple of times… Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and but give us again, for folks that haven’t heard, the Aaron Stanski, you know, a couple bullet points. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — What did I miss? What do you want to fill in the picture? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, ah you know the quick story is grew up in ministry. My dad was a pastor growing up, planted a we planted a church in Boston when I was a kid. Went to school for engineering, worked for Harley Davidson Motorcycles, did big projects, project management and stuff for them for a while. And then felt called to ministry. Aaron Stanski — So left Harley Davidson, was on staff with Cru for a couple years doing college ministry before I jumped on staff at a fast growing multi-site church here in Chicago. So loved that, loved being part of that ministry team. And then, of course, we went through a big building project. So got to roll up my sleeves on the on the church staff side of things and hire architects and engineers and AV consultants and really kind of combine my my engineering mind and my ministry heart. And so absolutely love that process. And so, yeah, I’ve been helping churches now for the last 15, 16 years. It’s been an absolute blast. Rich Birch — So good. Well, the the kind of person I want to have in mind today, and so friends, if if you’re listening in, if this sounds a little bit like you, you’re going to want to pay close attention. So I’m thinking about that church, you know, the leader that looks around, they maybe have got, maybe they got two services. Rich Birch — They’re looking around and they’re seeing, ooh, they feel like maybe their growth ah is starting to create some pinch points. Maybe it’s in kids. Maybe it’s in adults. Maybe it’s their lobby. It’s they look around and they’re like, man, I just I feel like our facility might be holding us back a little bit. um And because I do bump into this in churches all the time. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — And there’s like, there can be like a certain amount of anxiety and fear around, gosh, when do I, what do I do? So when you talk to pastors, what do you know notice as one of the kind of most common point of confusion when it comes to starting or pulling the trigger, moving on with a building project, expansion project, try to improve things. Where are we getting this wrong? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think ah like one, the whole process itself can just be completely overwhelming. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — Like immediately you’re confronted with, ah oh my goodness, like what’s the right solution? What is the, ah what is the town or the, you know, the jurisdiction going to allow us to do? What is this all going to cost? Where are we going to do church in the meantime if we’re having to fix this building or add on to it? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — I mean, immediately all of these questions start to kind of well up and it can become ah really overwhelming for a lot of churches. Rich Birch — So good. So when when we step back, is there any one of those that you think in particular is like a piece of the puzzle that is the most kind of mysterious or is the most um confusing as as you that you bump into regularly with leaders? Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think the most confusing is probably like, what’s the right solution? Rich Birch — Okay. Yep. Aaron Stanski — A lot of times it’s a combination of like, you know, we feel like we’re out of space, so we have to add on. But if we do that, we’re going to have to modify what we already have. And what we have is old, or there’s some maintenance on it that we haven’t gotten around to. And like, what can we do in this space? And so actually the the right solution is is probably one of the most difficult things to kind of imagine for a lot of pastors. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And, you know, then right behind that is like. What’s it going to cost? Right. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — I mean, you know, for the last four or five years, we’ve seen a lot of inflation. We’ve seen a lot of different things happening, like with pricing and stuff. And so what used to be a pretty easy calculation for us as churches now, it feels like it’s a lot foggier as far as like what what things are just going to cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. So I’ve heard church leaders at this this juncture, they start thinking like, okay, like we got to get an architect. Get me the architect, the the person that designed this building 25 years ago. Where are they? Are they still in business? And, you know, we start going down that road. I’m not even really sure what an architect does. Like, I obviously, you you draw things. But, like, help us understand what what is the piece of the puzzle that, like, an architect brings to the table. Aaron Stanski — Right. Rich Birch — And I know that’s, like, a subset of what you guys do. Pretend that I’m, like, super dumb because it’s probably not actually worry about pretending too much there. Explain what that is. What is that service? And is that actually what we need at this juncture? Is that the first question? Like, get the architect. Come in here. Explain that whole thing. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, well, I think we have to be careful. Sometimes hiring an architect is like picking up a hammer, right? And for a lot of architects who were, you know, traditionally trained and might have like one sort of, you know, viewpoint of the world. Like their job is to come in and draw something new um that’s going to sort of solve your problem. The challenge with that is a lot of times that architect is just looking for ah one type of solution, ah which is build you something new, add something on. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And they’re looking at it very narrowly through the lens of what the solution is going to be. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Aaron Stanski — And a lot of times they’re not, you know, kind of able to kind of step back and take a look at strategically and say, okay, before we start drawing plans and blueprints and some of those sorts of things, let’s really talk about like what’s going really well at your church and how are we going to amplify what you’re already doing well? How are we going to add some, you know, some pieces around it? And then of course, how are we going to fix some of the big, you know, some of the bigger problems? Aaron Stanski — So an architect technically, right? I mean, it’s a licensed professional. Their job is to lead your organization through the process from the very beginning all the way through the stages of design. Their job is to make sure that the solution is aligned with your with who you are as an organization and your budget. And they’re supposed to help all the way through construction, making sure that it gets built the way that it was designed and and that it gets you know all the questions get answered and that it’s ultimately safe. Aaron Stanski — So that’s what an architect does. I think the I think the thing that we miss a little bit on the front end is in order for the architect to start, we really need kind of need to know what the scope of the work is and the budget first. Rich Birch — So good. Okay. Okay. Good. Aaron Stanski — If we don’t put those two guardrails on the left and the right-hand side, we’re really missing out. The left-hand side should be scope. The right-hand side should be budget. And we should nail those down before we get going into designing. Rich Birch — Okay. I want to unpack that because I know, I actually texted you recently. Friends, getting you behind the scenes a little bit. I had a friend of mine, they had done exactly what we talked about here. They were like, we went and hired an architect to help with this thing. And they came back with a ginormous number um that was like, I would say a factor, you know, three or four times what I thought. And what do I know? I don’t know anything. Rich Birch — And I actually think it was these guardrails where they went off off on it. They didn’t start with scope and budget. They started with, hey, here’s a problem, architect – solve it for us. And they came back with this, you know, very incredible initial drawing and all that. Rich Birch — Talk us through how do we nail down scope and budget from the beginning? Talk us through what does that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, so I would say, ah you know, you want to find a ministry partner who’s going to come in and really kind of help ah flesh out some of those pieces, really understand what’s working well, what’s not working well, what’s missing, where do we have to clarify what it is that we’re doing in order so to sort of establish that. And and there’s ah there’s a lot of great partners out there who can help you do that. But you’re really looking for someone in the building/design/construction space who has experience who has a lot of experience, honestly, with churches and understands what it means to, you know, serve people who’ve been part of your church for 20, 30 years and keep them on mission and disciple them up, as well as welcoming people who are walking into your doors for the very first time. Aaron Stanski — So at Risepointe, we walk through a process called The Needs Analysis, where we get on site with, you know, a church for an entire day and understand their DNA and really understand what’s working and not working and stuff. And we start with that so that we can sketch out some ideas and some concepts and stuff around what is the what is the scope of work that’s going to solve the problem or fix the lid or add the seats that we need? And what’s the budget that we feel like God’s calling us to spend as a church in order to go do that? And we want to start with that before we jump into full architecture. Rich Birch — Okay, so sidebar question. Is it possible for someone to help us at this early kind of scoping phase without doing some sort of on-site? Like, can I just call an architect and say, hey, here’s the problem. I need to add a thousand seats. How much is that going to cost? And then they go away and come back with a number. Or, or you know, are is there, yeah, can they do that? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can. I mean, you can call up Risepointe and I’ll get on the phone with you. The, and, but there’s going to be a range, right? Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — And I can say like, Hey, here’s the last 10 churches that we’ve done a thousand seat auditoriums at… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …and here’s kind of the range and stuff. The problem with shortcutting to that is you miss a lot of things, right? Each jurisdiction is different, like how the civil engineering works, the parking requirements and stuff. Rich Birch — Right. Good. Yep. Aaron Stanski — And those really affect the budget. And so we want to understand those first. And the second thing is, I mean, every church that we work with is and incredibly unique in the people that they’re reaching, and the values that those people have and whether they’re de-churched or unchurched and and who they’re running into and and stuff. And so really kind of understanding that context is so important um before we jump into, you know, sort of solution. Aaron Stanski — But yeah, I mean, since we work with churches all over the country, I mean, if someone called me up, I could probably, I could probably put my thumb in the air and give them a ah swag on what that might cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. And I would, you know, it’s funny because I’ve, I’ve recommended people have asked me those kinds of questions and I always actually say exactly what, you know, where you led, which is like, you should call my friend Aaron and, but, but what you should do, get on the, do the like free call or whatever, get on the book a time. But I said, you really should do this Needs Analysis thing. Cause the project that you’re facing is always much larger than you think. Rich Birch — And I would rather people take time, invest the resources upfront and time, frankly, to slow down and say let’s actually understand the question we’re asking before we jump to answers, right? Like what because because we could get this thing wrong and actually that gets to this whole idea of how early is too early. My experience has been people wait too long before they engage with someone like you. They they get into like their third service, fourth service. They’re like, oh gosh, people aren’t going to the fifth service. Maybe we have to figure out how to get more space. Talk us about, you know, what mistakes do we make when we wait too long without engaging with someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I’d say, you know, the thing to keep in mind is that you’re, if you’re the average church that reaches out to Risepointe, you’re somewhere between two and a half and three years away from having any sort of new space. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Okay. Aaron Stanski — And that’s on the short end. We have churches who are bringing new space online five years after they’ve reached out to us because they’re, they live in downtown areas… Rich Birch — Wow. Aaron Stanski — …very challenging jurisdictions and some things like that. Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — And so when we’re thinking about when is the right time, I think, yeah, earlier is definitely better. But we have to be careful ah that we’re strategically spending dollars even on the front end, you know, so that we, you know, we’re getting out of it what we need. Aaron Stanski — As leaders, what questions are we asking that we need answers for in order to determine is it the right time to move forward with a building project? Is it a right time to launch a campus or go multi-site or some things like that? Aaron Stanski — If you wait too long, typically what happens is either we’re we’re rushing through the design process to kind of hit the capital campaign stuff and there’s budget misalignment. All of a sudden we thought it might be this, but now this is the actual budget for what it’s going to work. Aaron Stanski — And I think when that happens, there starts to be some vision confusion. You know, we’re looking at solutions that we kind of rushed through and it doesn’t feel like we really thought all of those things through. And so I think that’s another one. Aaron Stanski — And then I just think, you know, there’s there’s some missed ministry opportunities if if we kind of wait too long. I think a lot of times when we’re planning out, here’s the multiple phases of how we develop this campus and expand it. You know, we miss out on opportunities to go get some smaller things done sooner… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …capture momentum, you you know, fix the welcome center, like invest some dollars in something we know we’re not going to tear down, make it better for guests in a couple months. And we miss out on those things if we don’t have a bigger, more strategic plan. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, kind of a step back and say, hey, how does this fit into where everything that’s going on? Rich Birch — What would be kind of double clicking on that? What would be some indicators internally that would say, hey, um you know, these things are happening. I should really reach out to Risepointe. What would be some of the things that you would see as telltale signs that it’s now a time to to kind of take this step? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think if we’re, you know, if we’re really pushing towards our, those max numbers at our primary service, I think that’s a, that’s definitely an early indicator. Aaron Stanski — A lot of churches just kind of reach out and say, Hey, okay, here’s, here’s kind of where we’re at. Here’s where the math is at. Like, can you look at this like from a, like how much kids area should we have? How much lobby space should we have? And we can run some quick math for them and say, Hey, you don’t have any other lids. You’re looking good. You, you probably have a few more years of growth in you. Aaron Stanski — So that would be one. You know i think if ah you know we’re starting to talk about ah adding a third or fourth service, it’s probably a little bit too late, but we should probably get on it sooner than later. Aaron Stanski — And then, you know, one of the, one of the other things too, is just kind of paying attention. It’s easy for us on Sundays to stand on the stage and look out and get a pretty good sense of, are there enough seats? Is there space for me here? And like, we look out and we see some empty chairs. Aaron Stanski — Keep in mind that when you’re coming in from the back of the auditorium, it’s a lot harder to see some of those empty chairs. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so what is the percentage? But the other thing is the things that we’re not seeing when more when we’re on stage on Sunday is we’re not seeing the parking lot. We’re not seeing the early childhood wing that’s basically a it’s a it’s a disaster back there. There’s kids running around like crazy. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Aaron Stanski — And so even if we’re ah even if we have enough seats, like or we’re not at the 80 or 90 percent capacity to our primary service. We need to be looking out at some of these other areas and making sure that there’s not a lid somewhere else. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. In fact, I literally just last weekend said that to a church. I was, you know, I was doing a weekend visit where I was on site and all that stuff. And, and it, to me, it felt like the building, the parking, and the kids, and the main auditorium, they, or the adult auditorium, they just didn’t match. It was like they, the three were out of alignment. And I think they had enough kids, but you know, I don’t know. There was, it’s interesting how that can happen. And you know the lead pastor typically is seeing um only the adult room and not you know not anything else. Rich Birch — Early on, you know there’s my experience has been and projects that have been a part of that I would rather spend money as personally as a leader. I’m not saying, friends, if you’re listening in, that you need to necessarily do this. Rich Birch — I would rather spend money on the front end with a designer like you. Because because the joke I’ve made is it’s a lot cheaper to move walls on drawings than it is in in the real world. And I’ve that comes from pain of building stuff… Aaron Stanski — It’s true. Yeah. Rich Birch — …of building stuff, and then being literally I opened up a new facility and then stood there with a kids ministry person. And the kids ministry person was like, oh, I didn’t think it was going to look like this. I was like, oh my goodness, what what are you talking about? Aaron Stanski — Shoot. Rich Birch — Like, we just opened this new facility. Talk us through, like, what’s an investment on the front end to reach out to someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — How do you help churches see that hiring someone like you can actually save us resources in the long haul? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, starting out at the beginning and getting really clear about where we’re going and how we’re going to get there, it really helps us, you know, cart and like make sure we don’t overbuild or underbuild. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — It makes sure that like compared to all the other churches that we’re working with all over the country, that we’re in alignment with where the square footage is at and it’s aligned with how you do ministry locally, how you use these spaces seven days a week. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s it’s really making sure that we’re not overbuilding or underbuilding anywhere because that’s ah you know that’s a huge that’s a huge miss if we do that. And that’s probably one of the biggest cost savings. Aaron Stanski — The other thing is you know during you know during sort of that season of vision and master planning and when we’re talking to our folks about what God’s doing at the church and we’re telling stories of life change, like we’re really kind of laying out a vision for what God is calling us to do as a ministry. And people just naturally have questions around like, like, how is this going to help? And and how is this actually going to help us reach my lost coworker, my lost neighbor? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And, and so I think, you know, spending the time to do that, really translating sort of the mission and vision into physical space needs and producing some of those renderings that accompany that story. I mean, that’s just a really critical part. Rich Birch — Okay, so let’s double click on that. That’s that I feel like I have been caught in this situation where I get I get like, it’s the hammer and nail thing you you say. Like, I’m I’m pretty sure I know what the solution is. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like, let’s go do this. And I like that what you’re saying is like, hey, we need to take a step back and like actually think through how does this fit in our vision and how’s that all? How do you actually do that? How do you help a leadership team discern what the problem is that they’re really needing to solve, or should be solving, rather than just let’s build a bigger box. Or, I know! We just need 25 new parking spots. Like how do we not jump too quickly to that? What’s that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, it looks like, you know, spending time. Rich Birch — Good. And and, really getting to know them and what makes them unique. Like we have a fantastic set of tools that we use at Risepointe to like really talk about, you know, let’s talk about, uh, outside the walls, right? Like who, who are we called to reach? And, and what does it mean to do ministry in this place that God has uniquely put your church in the geographic area? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And let’s talk about the tension between this side of town and that side of town. And let’s, you know, let’s wrestle with, you know, some of those issues. And then let’s, and then let’s talk about like, like, man, who are we as a church on our best day? And what does it feel like when we’re like living up to our full potential? Aaron Stanski — And then we even get into some of the things around like, man, what are what are some of the strategic drivers? What’s driving more people hearing about Jesus? What’s working really well? What do you see as opportunities or things that where if you had the right leader or finances that you’d be able to you know, accomplish even more of your mission. Aaron Stanski — And so by starting there and then starting to work down towards, okay, where is your facility aligned with that with that exercise and where is it misaligned? Okay, let’s unpack that a little bit. And then without getting into ah the solution yet, I want to meet like individually with each you know ministry leader… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …talk about what how check-in works and all of those things. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s really sort of this almost like a 360 review of what’s happening between the mission and vision God’s given us, and how are our facilities helping or hindering that mission and vision. Aaron Stanski — And then it just comes down to budget. And so, okay, here are the possible solutions. Here’s what roughly what some of those things are going to cost. And then it’s going to the, going to God in prayer and saying, okay, what are you calling us to do? What are based on these options and trying to figure it out? Rich Birch — I want I want to come back to the budget question in a second. But I’ve I think I probably have stole this off you. I have said to multiple church leaders that like our buildings were built, there was like a philosophical underpinning of the the buildings that we were built with. There was a ministry model that they were built on. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Yeah. Rich Birch — And then there’s been a lag between when we made those decisions, we’ve we built them. Now we’ve been using them for X number of years. And our ministry model may no longer be the same as the building, or probably isn’t actually the same as when the building was built. Rich Birch — What’s your sense on how long that lag time is kind of between the, they they you know, we built something. If we built something more than 10 years ago, you know we probably want to readdress or look at our facilities afresh and say does this actually meet the needs of… Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — Because I feel like so many of us are in like the the cramped shoes that just don’t quite fit they work but they don’t quite fitWhat do you think that lag time is? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, the lag time is getting shorter and shorter. Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — It used to be, you know, it probably used to be 40 or 50 years… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …you know, without major ministry model shifts and stuff. Obviously, you know, Willow Creek, North Point, you know, coming onto of the scene in the in the late 90s and stuff really shifted. We have churches all the way up into the 2000s, even into the 2010s that sort of copied the model of the Willow Creeks and some of those things. And I think we’re seeing, you know, we’re seeing the model shifting a lot faster now. Rich Birch — Interesting. Aaron Stanski — I’d say, you know, you know, we’re probably in a faster 10 to 20 year cycle, something like that. But I think we’re coming out of the, you know, the, you know, that model of Willow Creek and North Point and stuff. And we’re, we’re moving into a new season. And it’s kind of exciting for us. Rich Birch — Yeah. Aaron Stanski — I mean, we get to, we get to sit on the front edge of all of that. Churches like in fantastic places, being creative, reaching, you know, people for Christ. And so it’s just interesting to kind of observe some of those things and, um and observe what’s working really well and, and where it we can improve, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re baiting me. What are those things that you’ve seen that have shifted? There’s got to be, or is that the magic? We got to call Aaron to find out. Aaron Stanski — No, you don’t have to call Aaron. No, I mean, the thing, I mean, like, you know, I heard someone share this with me recently, right? I mean, every Netflix account homepage is different for every person, all billion subscribers or whatever that they have. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — They’re individually tailored to to those individuals. And I know that because when I had a bunch of seventh grade boys spend the night at my house, like my algorithm got so messed up on my Netflix account last weekend. Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Aaron Stanski — But I think there is a shift away from you know some of the bigger, more institutional types of look and feel and trying to get down to, okay, how are we engaging one-on-one with people who are walking in and where they’re at. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — How do we, you know, instead of preach a sermon at them, how do we hear their story? And what does it look like for us to hear their story in in various places, whether that’s a welcome center, whether that’s, ah you know, side by side in the pew, whether that’s in sort of a first steps class. And so there’s a shift on that side of things… Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s interesting. Aaron Stanski — …just like as we look at the next generation and how we engage and reach the next generation. Rich Birch — Okay, I want to loop back on the money question. So for folks that don’t know, a part of what I do is actually help churches with that. And don’t really talk about it publicly, but I do. And, you know, there is this interesting tension that churches often come to this. It’s like we think we’re different than our ourselves. Rich Birch — And that if I was going to go build a new house, I would have to start with, well, how much income do I have? And like, what can the, you know, what can the, you know, what what would the what would the bank give me from a mortgage point of view? Like I start with reality around my finances. But so many churches start with, let’s build this giant thing. And it’s totally disconnected from the from what we could actually afford to either raise or carry long-term. Rich Birch — How much variance can a church bring to a design? Like if they upfront are defining, Hey, like we can afford probably 5 million. I know I’ve got $35 million dollars in dreams or maybe not. That’s, that’s too crazy. I got $15 million dollars in dreams. Is it possible for me to, to actually get that into a tighter box? Help us understand how do we do that? How do we on the front end be realistic with our finances as we’re doing this design thing? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, I think we have to with open hands, we have to hold out the, you know, the dreams, the vision, you know, the stuff that God’s given us. And we have to prayerfully sort of go through that exercise and say, okay, ah but how much risk do I want to introduce into the organization, like via debt? Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — What what is God actually calling us to do with those things? And we have to be creative in how we and and how we get across the finish line. I think when I when I hear sometimes a senior pastor sharing with me his $35 million dollars vision, Rich… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — …what I immediately try to do is say, okay, talk to me about what it is about that $35 million dollar thing that’s resonating with you. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so even though he’s describing something that’s $35 million, dollars and as an architect, I might get really excited about drawing $35 million dollars worth of stuff. Rich Birch — Yes. Aaron Stanski — If he actually can’t afford it and can’t raise it, he’s actually not going to go do it. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — So I need to go back to that vision and say, okay, what are the pieces in there that are from God, that are ah that are aligned with the mission that his church has and stuff? And I need to contextualize that. And then as an architect, as a designer, I have to turn around and say, okay, with my guardrails in place of budget and scope, how do I express those things… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …in the $5 million dollars that God has entrusted our church with? And so there’s going to be a lot of difficult decisions along the way. We’re going to have to prioritize some things. And some other things might have to go on the back burner. But that’s the process that we want to help churches walk through um to to get them to that point where they’re walking into a space for the first time and going, oh, man, this feels like us. Like this is this is who God wants us to be in our community. And I’m so excited about doing ministry in this new space. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So it’s it’s not, from what I hear you saying, it’s not unreasonable on the front end to be like, hey, we should actually bring, like, be clear on this is this is what we think we can actually raise. This is that what we think we can carry. We think we could do a project of X, whatever. And that needs to be early on in the discussion rather than we’re disappointed on the back end. Oh my goodness, we got this this big number and we don’t know what to do with it. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I like to be doing it simultaneously. I like to be doing the Needs Analysis and working through, okay, here’s the eight different project options. You can relocate and spend $35 million. You can add on. You can you can do this. All right, here’s your here’s your four options, $10, $8, $6, $4 million dollars And at the same time, I like to encourage churches to like, okay, go talk to someone like yourself… Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — …and say, okay, what do we think we could raise if we did a capital campaign? How much debt do we currently have? How do our elders feel about us you know borrowing some money if it if it makes a bigger impact on the project? Because if we can bring those two things together and pray through it and get clarity from God about what he’s asking us to do, then I can go ah help draw buildings and blueprints and things like that. Rich, you can help them raise some money and they and we can you know we can go through that process. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, it’s great. And you know, my experience has been every one of those steps, friends, is, it’s a lot of work. It’s, it’s like a, it’s a faith ah stretching experience. There are late, late nights staring at the ceiling, but every one of those I’ve been a part of, literally 100% of them have been transformative in the life of the church. You know, when they, when you look back, you’re like, wow, that was an inflection point. I am so glad we went through that. It wasn’t this like we did that and I was like, man, that wasn’t such so good in the end. It was really was amazing. Rich Birch — Well, there’s a resource that you’ve provided. It’s called 10 Things to Get ah Right Before You Build. Talk to us about this resource and then and then where can where can we want to make sure people get this. Tell us tell us a little bit about this. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, like with, you know, church, hundreds of churches calling us, you know, every year, asking a lot of the questions that we’ve talked about today. Like we tried to distill down what are the most common things the churches are like, okay, pause real quick. I got to go do something real fast before we decide that we can sort of move forward. And so some of these things are what happens like while you’re talking to Risepointe and some of these things might be before. But I think it’s just kind of a helpful reminder and ah a thoughtful list to kind of work through. Aaron Stanski — And so if that’s helpful at all, or if that’s interesting at all, um you can just go to risepointe.com/unseminary. And a little ah little landing page will pop up there. There’s two things you can do on that page. The first one is to just give us your name and your email there and sign up and get that 10 things to download. Aaron Stanski — I also threw another button on there this morning in case you’re like, hey, that sounds great, but I’ve got I’ve got a specific question I have about our building. Or like, I actually really need to talk to you guys about what our options are. And so I put another button down there at the bottom. If you want to schedule a call with myself or one of our architects, we’d love to hop on the phone with you. No charge for that. 30 minutes. Just kind of talk through where you’re at, what some of your questions are and see if we might be able to help. So ah once again, that’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And you can get all that, all that stuff right there. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And friends, I’ve had multiple friends in ministry who have engaged with with Aaron across the entire spectrum. The like free 30 minute thing all the way up through, you know, the kind of full deal, help get a whole project out the door. And and just so happy with the work that Risepointe does. And just has been transformative for their churches. So you get a hearty endorsement from me. You really should do that. Again, that’s just risepointe.com/unseminary. You can pick this up. It is a helpful little PDF, and the schedule call is a great thing. Rich Birch — Well, Aaron, I appreciate you being here today. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you guys or if they’re anywhere else online, obviously risepointe.com. We want to send them to anywhere else online. We want to we want to send them to. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can always, uh, you know, follow us on the Insta or whatever you want to do there. Rich Birch — Nice. Love it. Aaron Stanski — If you’re into like, you know, cool pictures of like steel being erected, ah or, uh, kids ministry stuff or pictures and stuff, we’re trying to share a little bit more info there. But yeah, I mean, or just our website and, uh, yeah, stay connected. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Thanks for being here and have a good day, buddy. Aaron Stanski — All right, you too. Bye.

Robert leads a lively episode from the Old Yella Dog lodge after a great day hunting with Tule Creek Hunting Outfitters. The group scores big mallard flocks, honkers and snow geese in dry-field hunting. Guests include Curtis "Chef Boyardee," Willow Creek Custom Calls and Duck Chugger as they recount the killer hunting trip. The episode also highlights camp cuisine — venison bourguignon, duck pâté and olive oil cake — sponsor shout-outs and gear talk, from Willow Creek custom calls to the Mini Marsh in-action, plus anecdotes about fog, heaters, cocktails and road-trip camaraderie.

Im Gespräch zwischen Florian Wüthrich und Jörg Ahlbrecht geht es um den kommenden Willow Creek Leitungskongress 2026 in Dortmund (12. - 14. Februar 2026) zum Thema «Gute Leitung braucht starke Wurzeln». Ahlbrecht spricht darüber, wie wichtig geistliche Tiefe und Verwurzelung für Leitung in Kirche und Gemeinde sind – besonders nach den Herausforderungen der letzten Jahre. Er gibt Einblicke in die inhaltlichen Schwerpunkte, das Programm und die Referierenden des Kongresses, darunter John Mark Comer, Mindy Caliguire, Martin Schleske, Dave Ferguson, André Häusling und Michael Herbst. Ausserdem erzählt er von seiner eigenen Rolle und dem anstehenden Generationenwechsel im Organisationsteam. Livenet ist Medienpartner des Willow Creek Leitungskongress 2026.Das vollständige Gespräch mit Jörg Ahlbrecht ist im aktuellen Livenet Talk zu sehen.

Guest Bios Show Transcript Recently, Willow Creek Community Church—one of the most influential churches in modern evangelical history—celebrated its 50th anniversary. For five decades, the Chicago-area megachurch has shaped how churches look, lead, and measure success through its seeker-sensitive model and corporate-style leadership. But as Willow Creek marks this milestone, its story is no longer just one of innovation and influence; it's also one of profound damage.

In this lecture, we explore the themes presented in Colossians 1:24 to 2:7, focusing on the Apostle Paul's message regarding the importance of maintaining a vibrant and active faith. The discussion begins with Paul's expression of joy in the face of suffering, particularly in the context of his ministry to the church. His suffering is tied to his role as a servant of Christ, as he emphasizes the significance of proclaiming the gospel, a message that was once hidden but has now been revealed to God's people. Paul highlights the riches and glory of Christ, extending this message not just to Jews but also to Gentiles, which underscores the inclusive nature of the gospel. The lecture dives into the essence of what it means to have Christ living within believers, suggesting that this profound truth provides assurance of sharing in God's glory. The importance of actively warning and teaching others about Christ is emphasized, with an aim to present every believer perfect in their relationship with Him. The speaker reflects on the concept of "stalling out" in one's faith journey, drawing a parallel between the potential stagnation in personal faith and a halted infrastructure project, such as the abandoned U10 metro line in Berlin. This metaphor illustrates the risks of losing momentum in spiritual growth, especially in a climate where merely attending church services without engaging deeply can lead to stagnation. By referencing the Reveal Study published by Willow Creek, the speaker underscores that active participation in faith, rather than passive attendance, is crucial for spiritual maturity.The core message of the lecture focuses on Paul's exhortation to the Colossians to continue walking in Christ after having received Him. This ongoing journey of faith is framed as a process that requires intention and deliberate action. Emphasizing the metaphor of walking, the speaker outlines four key instructions that cultivate a thriving faith: being rooted in Christ, being built on Him, being steadied in truth, and bursting with gratitude.Being rooted in Christ is highlighted as an essential foundation for spiritual growth, akin to a tree planted by water that draws nourishment even in harsh conditions. The speaker encourages self-reflection on personal plans for deepening one's roots in Christ through practices such as prayer, scripture reading, and community engagement. The notion of being built in Him further expands the metaphor of construction, emphasizing that every aspect of life—education, family, career—should be developed with intentionality and in alignment with Christ.As the discussion progresses, the importance of being steadied by truth in a fluctuating spiritual landscape is addressed. The speaker discusses the concept of plausibility structures and the role of community in reinforcing beliefs. Connections to fellow believers who strengthen faith through shared experiences and dialogue are promoted as vital to overcoming spiritual doubts and challenges.Lastly, the notion of bursting with gratitude ties together the previous themes by underscoring the response of believers to Christ's grace. The speaker conveys that gratitude should characterize the life of a Christian, contributing to their overall well-being and joy. The lecture closes with a reminder of the reliance on divine power to assist believers in living out their faith, emphasizing a community-oriented approach to growth and encouragement in one's spiritual journey. This comprehensive examination of Paul's message in Colossians provides practical insights for anyone seeking to avoid stagnation in their faith and to cultivate a vibrant, grateful relationship with Christ.

Jon and Robert run through a packed episode full of hunt prep: sponsor shout-outs (Willow Creek, Duck Chugger, Tule Creek and more), blind-building techniques with hog panels and roll-tops, decoy logistics, and upcoming guided hunts. They also tackle a website crash that disrupted bookings, share stories from recent hunts, praise key club helpers, and swap road‑and‑life anecdotes while gearing up for the season.

Tim Stevens returns to the podcast to discuss the hardest assignment in ministry: his three years at Willow Creek. He also talks about how to spot talent, firing well, how to recapture momentum, and his biggest lesson in four decades of ministry.

In this week's conversation between Dr. James Emery White and co-host Alexis Drye, they discuss the 50th anniversary of Willow Creek Community Church. In 1975, a young leader named Bill Hybels founded this suburban church in South Barrington, just outside of Chicago. What made it such an outlier were really two things: it had a strong entrepreneurial, outside-of-the-box mentality, and it had a passion to do whatever it took to reach lost people. They became one of the fastest growing churches in the nation and went on to found the Willow Creek Association. While they have had a very rocky road of late, what God did through Willow Creek Community Church can not be ignored. Episode Links As Alexis mentioned at the start of the podcast, we've seemingly had a run of anniversary episodes. In case you missed the ones she mentioned, we'd encourage you to check out CCP165: On the Nicene Creed and CCP167: On the 100th Anniversary of the Scopes Trial. There are two articles that might be of interest to you related to Willow Creek Bob Smietana, “As Willow Creek Turns 50, the Onetime 'Church of the Future' Redefines Success,” Religion News Service, October 8, 2025. Laura Barringer, “Did Willow Creek Skip Yom Kippur — Again?,” The Roys Report, October 10, 2025. And finally, as the conversation eventually turned to the downfall of Bill Hybels, there are a few past podcast episodes that would be worth listening to if you missed them: CCP4: On Pastors and Moral Failings, CCP31: On Celebrity Pastors and CCP40: On Criticism of Mega Churches. For those of you who are new to Church & Culture, we'd love to invite you to subscribe (for free of course) to the twice-weekly Church & Culture blog and check out the Daily Headline News - a collection of headlines from around the globe each weekday. We'd also love to hear from you if there is a topic that you'd like to see discussed on the Church & Culture Podcast in an upcoming episode. You can find the form to submit your questions at the bottom of the podcast page HERE.

You've heard Derek Jackson's ads on the podcast for his replacement heifer development operation, Willow Creek Cattle Co in Kansas. All he wanted was his own ranching operation and he has worked very hard to build it into a business. He started out with a small operation utilizing pasture that nobody was using and also leasing a yard that was out of operation. Derek was always looking for holes in the industry that he could fill and that has ultimately led him down the path of replacement heifer development. I think you'll really be able to relate to the struggles and challenges Derek has faced along the way building his business so check it out and reach out to him about his heifer program. Review Wizard:https://www.reviewwizard.io/Sponsorship:https://form.jotform.com/251243256767057Diversified Payments:https://www.diversifiedpayments.com/wealthycowboyThe Wealthy Cowboy Mastermind:https://www.skool.com/the-wealthy-cowboy-mastermind-1608/about

Un acuerdo de paz en Gaza se anuncia, con liberación de rehenes y ayuda humanitaria. La Junta de Andalucía realizará mamografías pendientes antes de diciembre. Los españoles no reducirán el gasto en comida. Se prevén fuertes lluvias en el este de España. Oyentes comparten anécdotas de enfado. CADENA 100 presenta la actuación de Leire Martínez el 18 de octubre y sortea entradas para Lady Gaga en Barcelona. Jimeno y Marlon dan conciertos de CADENA 100 en Zaragoza. Se narra la leyenda del pueblo fantasma Willow Creek en California, donde nadie toca nada desde 1859. Melendi, Eiffel 65 y Shakira suenan en CADENA 100. Se mencionan productos y servicios como O2, Fagor, Mutua, Leroy Merlin, Oro Bailén, Mueve, BBVA, Jeep, Movistar Prosegur Alarmas, Mapfre, Don Simón, Legálitas, Lidl Motor V-10, Bruxicalm y Eurodreams.

How can we get our people into small groups and involved in the mission of discipleship? In this episode of the Lausanne Movement Podcast, Jason Watson speaks with Lindsey Jodts, Groups Pastor at Willow Creek Community Church, about how discipleship flourishes in the context of community. Lindsey shares her journey into ministry, Willow Creek's evolving small group strategy, and why their vision is “everyone in groups, every group on mission.” This conversation is packed with practical wisdom for churches of every size seeking to form Christlike disciples who live for the sake of others

Todd Elliott, founder of FILO (First In Last Out), joins us to share how he went from a high school production enthusiast to leading tech teams at Kensington Community Church and Willow Creek. We explore the essential role of trust, excellence, and the art of technical production in church settings—plus the lessons learned from failure and what it takes to build strong team dynamics. Todd also opens up about balancing volunteer and paid roles, ensuring spiritual health for tech teams, and making smart investments in church tech. He also gives us a preview of upcoming Philo events, explaining why community and continuous learning are so important for technical artists.Follow FILO Youtube00:00 Building Trust and Overcoming Challenges01:56 Journey into Production: From High School to Kensington05:33 Experiences at Willow Creek and Beyond08:26 The Importance of Technical Excellence28:29 Balancing Service and Personal Well-being38:13 Addressing Problems with Solutions38:30 Tech Challenges in Church Services40:30 The Role of Volunteers in Church Tech44:39 Balancing Volunteer and Staff Roles50:26 Budgeting for Church Tech Needs56:39 The Importance of Backup Plans01:01:22 The Value of Philo Conference01:06:26 Philo Conference Highlights and Future Plans01:15:15 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

Hello and welcome back to another episode of B Bin Horror! On this week's episode we talk about the 2013 Found Footage/Horror film, Willow Creek. Willow Creek was written and directed by Bobcat Goldthwait and stars Alexie Gilmore and Bryce Johnson. On this week's episode we talk about the film and what we think happened at the end, we discuss our theories on Bigfoot and we also compare this film to Frogman. If you like what you hear please follow us on Instagram and Facebook @bbinhorror. You can also send us emails at bbinhorror@gmail.com and please don't forget to subscribe to B Bin Horror on whatever podcast platform you listen on! *B Bin Horror theme music - "Uprising" by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio*

What happens when a young boy's summer afternoon in the Cascade foothills turns into a brush with something massive, gray, and very much alive? In this chilling episode, master botanist Keith shares decades of encounters stretching from Newcastle, Washington, to the wilds of California's Sierra Nevada. You'll hear about the day a Sasquatch rose to its full height just feet away, the night screams echoed through the forest like a woman being torn apart, and the time a pyramid of six glowing lights floated toward a tree fort with terrifying intent. From Cougar Mountain to Willow Creek, Keith's stories weave together close-range sightings, rockfalls, strange smells, and moments when the woods seemed to hold their breath. This is a rare, raw firsthand account of how one man's childhood playground became the stage for some of the most unnerving encounters we've ever heard.

Leadership guru John Maxwell shocked many by publicly honoring disgraced pastor Bill Hybels at the Global Leadership Summit at Willow Creek.

 DownloadWelcome to episode 439 of LOTC. This week the crew is joined by special guest, Chris Bartoli as Bill Van Veghel is still on his camping vacation adventure. The crew is tackling camping horror movies and ranking their top 3 camping movies. You will not want to miss this one. We want to give a big shout out to Chris Bartoli for joining us and doing such a great job. We want you to grab your favorite snacks and beverages as you journey with us through the Land Of The Creeps.HELP KEEP HORROR ALIVE!!TOP 3CHRIS1. FINAL GIRLS 20152. PIRANAH 19783. CUB 2014DAVE1. 1978 LONG WEEKEND2. 1972 DELIVERANCE3. 1976 CREATURE FROM BLACK LAKEPEARL1. 2015 FINAL GIRLS2. 2008 THE RUINS3. 2002 CABIN FEVERGREG1. 2013 WILLOW CREEK2. 1986 BODY COUNT3. 2014 BACKCOUNTRYLINKS :GREG BENSCHMOVIE RAMBLING AND REVIEWSAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE TEASERFACEBOOKJUSTIN BEAHMWEBSITEFACEBOOKINSTAGRAMLOTC Links :Land Of The Creeps InstagramGregaMortisFacebookTwitterLand Of The Creeps Group PageLand Of The Creeps Fan PageJay Of  The Dead's New Horror Movie PodcastYoutubeInstagramEmailLetterboxdDr. ShockDVD Infatuation TwitterDVD Infatuation WebsiteFacebookHorror Movie PodcastJay Of The Dead's New Horror Movies PodcastYouTube ChannelLetterboxdDVD Infatuation PodcastThe Illustrated Fan PodcastBill Van Veghel LinkFacebookLetterboxdMusic,Movies,Sports & Stuff PodcastFacebook Music Movies Sports & StuffTwisted Temptress LinkLetterboxdLOTC Hotline Number1-804-569-56821-804-569-LOTCLOTC Intro is provided by Andy Ussery, Below are links to his social mediaEmail:FacebookTwitterOutro music provided by Greg Whitaker Below is Greg's Twitter accountTwitterFacebook

What happens when a spiritually sensitive musician follows the whispers of his ancestors into the forests of Coos County — and ends up face-to-face with something pacing on a rock, staring down a fishing boat?In this riveting and emotional episode of Bigfoot Society, Jeremiah Byron sits down with Chris — a gifted storyteller from the Oregon coast — who shares decades of mind-bending encounters with what he calls the “Hairy Folk.” From an ocean-bound Sasquatch pacing in front of a breaching whale to haunting dreams, glowing red eyes, stick signs, and psychic messages, this episode explores a side of Bigfoot rarely talked about… but deeply felt.You'll hear firsthand stories from Russian River, Stanislaus River, Willow Creek, Coquille, and more — including unexplained tree breaks, vocalizations that sound like human calls, and gifts left in the forest that predicted future relationships. More than just a chronicle of encounters, this is a look into how Bigfoot connects across spirit, land, and bloodline — and how one man's family legacy may have called him back into the mystery.Resources:Pulse Pace music video referenced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J6EI7Om1-0

Get ready to trek deep into the wilderness of the unknown on this gripping episode of Tall Boy Radio! Your intrepid hosts, Beans and Gaz, are joined by a man who's dedicated his life to separating fact from folklore: the renowned Big Foot hunter and researcher, Ed Brown. This isn't just another campfire tale; Ed brings a unique blend of firsthand experience, scientific rigor, and unwavering passion to the mic, promising an episode that will challenge your perceptions and perhaps even make you a believer.From the moment Ed settles in, the air crackles with anticipation. Beans and Gaz kick things off by diving straight into Ed's personal journey, exploring what first ignited his lifelong quest for the elusive Sasquatch. Prepare to be captivated as Ed recounts his most compelling personal experiences in the field. He'll paint vivid pictures of the chilling sounds, the inexplicable signs, and the fleeting glimpses that have kept him on the trail for decades. Listeners will hear about the unique methodologies he employs during his expeditions, from advanced audio recording techniques to remote sensing equipment, and how these tools have provided tantalizing clues.But this episode isn't just about thrilling encounters. Beans, ever the skeptic (or at least the one who asks the skeptical questions!), presses Ed on the scientific opinion surrounding the existence of Big Foot. Ed, a proponent of evidence-based research, doesn't shy away from the challenges. He'll articulate the scientific arguments for the possibility of an undiscovered primate, discussing everything from the vast uncatalogued biodiversity of our planet to the limitations of traditional research methods in dense, remote environments. He'll dissect the ecological niches that Big Foot might occupy, drawing parallels to other reclusive megafauna, and address the common criticisms leveled against cryptozoological claims with reasoned arguments and compelling counterpoints. Expect a nuanced discussion on DNA evidence, footprint analysis, and the tantalizing prospect of what a confirmed discovery could mean for our understanding of evolution and the natural world.And of course, no discussion with a Big Foot hunter would be complete without addressing the elephant (or rather, the ape!) in the room: the infamous Willow Creek video. Gaz will guide the conversation as Ed provides his expert take on this legendary footage. Is it the definitive proof so many hope for? A clever hoax? Or something in between? Ed offers his professional assessment based on years of observing primate locomotion, analyzing gait patterns, and understanding the nuances of how such creatures move in their natural habitat. He'll discuss the historical context of the footage, the debates it sparked, and why, even decades later, it continues to be a cornerstone of Big Foot lore. Get ready for a deep dive into the arguments for and against its authenticity, and hear Ed's well-researched conclusions on its significance within the broader search for Sasquatch.This episode of Tall Boy Radio is a must-listen for anyone fascinated by the unexplained, intrigued by scientific inquiry, or simply loves a good mystery. Ed Brown's blend of personal narrative, scientific insight promises an engaging, thought-provoking, and unforgettable journey into the heart of the Big Foot phenomenon. Tune in and prepare to have your mind opened – you might just find yourself looking a little closer at the shadows in the woods.tallboyradio.com

Utah voters must mail in ballots earlier this year, Summit County Housing Authority Director Maddie McDonough with details on housing in the county, Summit County Manager Shayne Scott with updates on issues facing the county, Park City Community Foundation Executive Director Joel Zarrow and board member Eyee Hsu with details on the food waste collection program, Recycle Utah General Manager Jim Bedell and Carolynn Wawra with the latest on a location for a new center, Kimball Arts Fest to bring local, national artists to Park City, Two stabbed at Heber birthday party; police seek suspects and Basin Rec urges Willow Creek visitors to respect pond closure.

In this episode, Dave discusses The Puppet Masters, The Devil's Candy, Willow Creek, Pontypool, and The Burning.

Todd sits down with Nate Aguilar, the brains behind all the technology used to pull off the FILO Conference. They talk about streaming, using Willow Creek infrastructure and setting up the volunteers up to succeed as we streamed 8 Breakouts simultaneously. Show Notes: FILO 2025 Highlight Video FILO 2026: Live Stream and In-Person tickets are available for the lowest rate through May 27, 2025. Learn more at filo.org/filo2026. Don't forget, the 10% off discount code for podcast listeners is “podcast10”. Want to know more about the behind the scenes of the Conference? Send us your questions! We would love to answer them! Email the team at hello@filo.org. Subscribe to the FILO Podcast: Never miss an episode! Subscribe to the FILO Podcast on your favorite podcast platform and be alerted any time we launch a new episode. Leave a review of the FILO Podcast: Your ratings and reviews help spread the word about the FILO Podcast to others. We'd appreciate your help! Leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Have ideas for the FILO Podcast? Email your feedback, send us your topic ideas or names of people you think we should interview! filopodcast@filo.org FILO Emails: The best way to stay in the loop with what FILO is up to, is to sign up to receive our emails. Follow FILO on Social Media: Instagram | Facebook 

In this episode, Amy sits down with Doug Turner, President of GenerosityOS, to talk about how church giving strategies have evolved (spoiler alert: episodic capital campaigns are so 2004). Doug brings decades of experience from helping churches like Willow Creek and Redeemer Presbyterian fund their vision, and he's got some fresh insights on why year-round generosity and vision clarity are the new power couple in church finance. If you're tired of the same old “pass the plate and pray” approach, this conversation is for you. Doug unpacks why traditional capital campaigns are shifting, how to build a culture of generosity that doesn't feel like a permanent fundraiser, and why churches need to stop trying to fund unclear visions (seriously, stop it). Plus, he shares practical first steps for church leaders ready to level up their generosity game. Whether you're a pastor who breaks out in hives at the mention of money talks or a church leader looking to build a more sustainable funding model, this episode delivers the straight talk you need about modern church giving.   This Episode Is Brought to You by PlainJoe: Are you considering adding a second or third campus to your growing church? Need help telling your church's unique story across every location? PlainJoe, a Storyland Studio, has you covered. Their team of creative storytellers, talented designers and innovative architects are passionate about helping churches tell their stories through spatial, interactive and strategic storytelling.  Reach out to learn more at plainjoe.net.   Join the Conversation on Social Media We use hashtag #unstuckchurch on X and on Instagram. 

www.RuminationsRadioNetwork.comwww.instagram.com/ruminationsofredrumhttps://twitter.com/OfRedrumwww.instagram.com/RuminationsRadioNetworkTwitter: RuminationsRadioNetwork@RuminationsNhttps://www.patreon.com/RuminationsRadioMusic and Production by Mitch Proctor for Area 42 Studios and SoundEpisode Artwork Charles Langley and Mitch Proctor for Area 42 Studios and Soundhttps://www.patreon.com/RuminationsRadio ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

On today's program, Willow Creek Pastor Dave Dummit announced this week he is stepping down as leader of the influential Chicagoland megachurch. Leaders have also named his successor. And, revenue is down for Steven Furtick's Elevation Church, while in-person membership is flat. We'll take a closer look at the church's 2024 annual report.  Plus, the state of the church—Barna Group released its new report showing men have outpaced women in church attendance, reversing a longstanding trend. We'll have details. But first, more churches are leaving what's known as ‘the Network,' led by Steve Morgan. Nearly half of the congregations that have been associated with a “Network” of churches overseen by Pastor Steve Morgan have either publicly announced their departure or removed any reference to the network from their websites. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Stephen DuBarry, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Kim Roberts, Bob Smietana, Shannon Cuthrell, Diana Chandler, Brittany Smith, and Christina Darnell. A special thanks to Baptist Press for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.   MANUSCRIPT:    FIRST SEGMENT Warren:  Hello everybody. I'm Warren Smith, coming to you this week from Charlotte, North Carolina. Natasha: And I'm Natasha Cowden, coming to you from Denver, Colorado, and we'd like to welcome you to the MinistryWatch podcast. Warren: On today's program, Willow Creek Pastor Dave Dummit announced this week he is stepping down as leader of the influential Chicagoland megachurch. Leaders have also named his successor. And, revenue is down for Steven Furtick's Elevation Church, while in-person membership is flat. We'll take a closer look at the church's 2024 annual report. Plus, the state of the church—Barna Group released its new report showing men have outpaced women in church attendance, reversing a longstanding trend. We'll have details. Natasha: But first, more churches are leaving what's known as ‘the Network,' led by Steve Morgan. Warren: Nearly half of the congregations that have been associated with a “Network” of churches overseen by Pastor Steve Morgan have either publicly announced their departure or removed any reference to the network from their websites. MinistryWatch began reporting about Morgan in 2022 when a watchdog group called “Leaving the Network” issued an eight-point “call to action,” including an independent investigation of the group. Morgan, who was originally part of the Vineyard Association of Churches, left that group in 2006 and formed his own network. At one point, the network included 26 churches in the U.S., U.K., and Taiwan. Morgan is still the lead pastor of Joshua Church in Austin, Texas. Natasha: Why were churches leaving? Warren: One of the concerns that “Leaving the Network” has raised is that Morgan was arrested in 1987 for aggravated criminal sodomy of a minor, but his case was diverted. The group believes Morgan's past has been concealed from members and leaders in the network of churches. Natasha: Eleven churches no longer appear to be affiliated with the Network. MinistryWatch reported about four — Isaiah Church, Vine Church, North Pines Church, and Hosea Church — last fall. Now seven more have indicated in some way that they are no longer part of the Network. Warren: Brookfield Church in Athens, Ohio: Cedar Heights Church in State College, Penn.: Mountain Heights Church in Morgantown, W.V.: Oaks Church in Muncie, Ind.: South Grove Church in Athens, Ga.: Vida Springs Church in Gainesville, Fla.: Christland Church in College Station, Texas: Natasha: Next, Willow Creek's Pastor steps down. Warren: David Dummitt, who became pastor of Willow Creek Church at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic,

Willow Creek pastor Dave Dummitt to step down, Shawn Williams named successor Plumbline Faith on X: "In the New Testament, “church” is not a meeting or a “service.” Nor is it a building, a staged event or spectator seating. Rather, it’s a local community of people who participate together in serving God, each other and a waiting world, through ministry one to another for" / X Right Wing Watch on X: "If you give White House faith adviser Paula White $1,000 before Easter, she promises that you will receive "seven supernatural blessings.": "God will assign an angel to you ... He'll give you prosperity. He'll take sickness away from you. He will give you long life." https://t.co/eQRkuC9KtG" / X Timothy Keller (1950-2023) on X: "It is because we have received radical spiritual generosity that we can be radically generous with those in need." / X 6 Simple Habits That Keep Christian Marriages StrongSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, host Suanne Camfield interviews Steve Carter, Lead Pastor of Christ Church and author of Grieve, Breathe, Receive. Steve shares his journey of grief after stepping away from Willow Creek, the challenges he faced during a desert season, how he learned to loosen his grip on achievement and begin to hope again. Steve shares how God has brought redemption, healing and joy to his story as he's stepped back in to lead a local church once again.

Top headlines for Tuesday, March 25, 2025In this episode, we discuss the recent legislative moves in South Dakota and Mississippi, where new laws have been enacted to restrict men from entering private spaces designated for women, igniting conversations about privacy and gender rights. Next, we explore the case of a Christian nurse under investigation for labeling a trans-identified individual as Mr., raising questions about pronoun usage and professional conduct. Plus, we revisit the enduring mystery surrounding the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy, examining theories about whether Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. 00:11 South Dakota, Miss. pass bans on men entering women's bathrooms01:06 NHS sides with convicted pedophile against Christian nurse02:02 USAID pays Samaritan's Purse $19M reimbursement for Africa aid03:01 Dave Dummitt stepping down as Willow Creek's senior pastor03:48 4 takeaways from the JFK files04:40 Pat Gelsinger expands role at Gloo05:40 ‘Evangelist at Heart': George Foreman dies at 76#WomensRights #PrivacyLaws #ReligiousFreedom #HealthcareEthics #HumanitarianAid #CharityWork #ChurchLeadership #PastoralTransition #JFKAssassination #HistoryDocumentaries #TechLeadership #FaithTech #BoxingLegends #FaithJourneySubscribe to this PodcastApple PodcastsSpotifyGoogle PodcastsOvercastFollow Us on Social Media@ChristianPost on TwitterChristian Post on Facebook@ChristianPostIntl on InstagramSubscribe on YouTubeGet the Edifi AppDownload for iPhoneDownload for AndroidSubscribe to Our NewsletterSubscribe to the Freedom Post, delivered every Monday and ThursdayClick here to get the top headlines delivered to your inbox every morning!Links to the NewsSouth Dakota, Miss. pass bans on men entering women's bathrooms | PoliticsNHS sides with convicted pedophile against Christian nurse | WorldUSAID pays Samaritan's Purse $19M reimbursement for Africa aid | PoliticsDave Dummitt stepping down as Willow Creek's senior pastor | Church & Ministries4 takeaways from the JFK files | U.S.Pat Gelsinger expands role at Gloo | U.S.‘Evangelist at Heart': George Foreman dies at 76 | Entertainment

Time to enjoy the slowest of slow burn found footage horror.

Touring Life + Willow Creek Production + Christ's Church of the Valley = A Production Pro. Ivan Talamantes (Christ's Church of the Valley, Willow Creek) shares his journey from touring pro to church tech leader. He gives us insights on volunteers, gear, and the best (and worst) audio consoles in church production!In this episode you'll hear: 1:00

Too bad the boys have little feet

How can you connect with fellow church production friends to navigate the journey of church tech together?Todd Elliott joins us to share church tech disaster stories, tips for effectively communicating with leadership, and how to build meaningful friendships in the church production space—so you never have to walk the journey alone.In this episode you'll hear: 1:00 What happened to the back tracks at the inauguration?7:00 Todd Elliott joins us! 9:00 Five Truths and a Lie for FILO 2025 16:00 What is the FILO conference? 23:20 Disaster Story: “I prayed to God and my prayers were answered” 33:00 How did the church production team produce Willow Creek services?40:50 What's happening at the FILO conference in 2025? 47:00 Tech Takeaway: How to communicate mistakes to leadership  Check out the how to video here! You'll also see a code for 10% off your next LEKO from us in the YouTube description. Resources for your Church Tech Ministry Does your church have used gear that you need to convert into new ministry dollars? We can make you an offer here. Do you need some production gear but lack the budget to buy new gear? You can shop our gear store here. Connect with us: Follow us on Facebook Hang out with us on Instagram See all the ways we can serve your church on our Website Get our best gear sent to your inbox each Monday before it goes public via the Early Service

On this episode, we dig into a chilling tale of unexplained phenomena in the quiet town of Willow Creek. A young protagonist recounts their childhood, marked by eerie encounters in an unassuming house and its surrounding neighborhood. From whispered warnings of an imaginary figure called 'Mommy Ego' to nights filled with chaos and terror, this story will have you questioning what lurks just beyond our understanding. Was this family home plagued by restless spirits, or could there be a darker explanation rooted in the land's history? 

On this episode, we dig into a chilling tale of unexplained phenomena in the quiet town of Willow Creek. A young protagonist recounts their childhood, marked by eerie encounters in an unassuming house and its surrounding neighborhood. From whispered warnings of an imaginary figure called 'Mommy Ego' to nights filled with chaos and terror, this story will have you questioning what lurks just beyond our understanding. Was this family home plagued by restless spirits, or could there be a darker explanation rooted in the land's history? 

In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to demand. At the time of this recording in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Audra Cooper Director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage discuss the challenges ag faces from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions to inflation. To remain viable, they stress the importance of farming a quality product that can be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. Resources:         185: Why You Need to Talk About Sustainability 221: Future Proof Your Wine Business with Omnichannel Communication Turrentine Brokerage Turrentine Brokerage - Newsletter United States Department of Agriculture Grape Cruse Report Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to consumer demand. At the time of this recording, in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. [00:00:23] I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director at Vineyard Team. And in today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker. At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:45] They discuss the challenges ag faced in 2024 from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions, to inflation, to remain viable. They stress the importance of farming a quality product that could be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. [00:01:04] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start? Become a Vineyard Team member. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam.org To become a member today. [00:01:25] Now let's listen in. [00:01:31] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper and Eddie Urman. Audra is director of grape brokerage with Turrentine brokerage. And Eddie is a grape broker for the central coast, also with Turrentine. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:01:42] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us. We're excited. [00:01:44] Eddie Urman: yeah, thanks for having us, Craig. [00:01:46] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is a wine and grape brokerage? [00:01:49] Audra Cooper: It's a really fancy term for matchmaking and finding homes for supply. Whether that's through growers having fruit available and needing to sell in a specific year or finding multi year contracts, or that's bulk wine that has been made in excess or maybe a call for a winery needing to find a way of A pressure release valve. [00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: And so you match buyers with sellers, basically. [00:02:13] Audra Cooper: Exactly. [00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: On both sides of the fence. Both the wine and the grape side. Do you have specialists for the grape side? Specialists for the wine side? [00:02:21] Audra Cooper: We do. , you're talking to our newest hire on the grape side, Eddie, who's going to be focused on the Central Coast. We also have Mike Needham in the Central Valley on grapes. Christian Clare in the North Coast specializing in Napa, Sonoma, Lake, and Mendocino on grapes. And then we have three bulk wine brokers, Mark Cuneo, William Goebel, and Steve Robertson. [00:02:40] Craig Macmillan: Your world is very dependent on the marketplace. Obviously, that's what you do. You're brokers. The simple model of quote unquote the market. I think for most people is that you have a consumer who buys wine, wineries make wine, and they sell it to those people who buy it. Vineyards grow grapes up to wineries. [00:02:57] So if there's more demand from consumers, that means there's , more grapes in demand, there's more wine in demand, and there should be higher prices. Or the opposite. That's probably really oversimplified given the unique nature of the wine industry, because , it's not a widget, you know, I don't make a widget, sell it, then go, Ooh, I can make more widgets. [00:03:16] So because of the nature of the business things are on much larger timeframes, right? Audra, [00:03:23] Audra Cooper: They are. I mean, agriculture by nature is, a little bit more of a, what we call an on ramp and off ramp. There's kind of that distance from the time that something is needed versus the time it can be produced. And in the wine industry, it's really difficult to plant to demand. And oftentimes we miss the boat regards to meeting demand with our current supply needs. [00:03:44] So it's really difficult to not only predict, but figure out where consumption is going. And you talked about kind of the simplicity of it and it is true. You can kind of look at the macro market in a very simplistic way, but the reality is in particularly with California, it's very segmented. From value tier up to premium to ultra premium to luxury, and all of those different tiers have different timelines, and some of them converge at moments, depending upon whether there were oversupplied or undersupplied, . So yeah, it can get really complicated and very, very multifaceted. [00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: What's your comment on that, Eddie? [00:04:21] Eddie Urman: Well, I think Audra summed it up pretty well, but yeah, it's a very complex integration of all these things, and planting grapes oftentimes, like Audra said, we tend to overdo it. And we then tend to overdo pushing them out. And it's just kind of a cyclical thing through history where we go from undersupply to oversupply. And right now we're obviously in a pretty large state of oversupply. [00:04:44] Craig Macmillan: Over supply in terms of grapes? [00:04:46] Eddie Urman: Correct [00:04:47] Audra Cooper: and bulk wine. [00:04:48] Craig Macmillan: And bulk wine [00:04:49] what are the kinds of things that are going to lead to a market correction there? Are people going to have to pull out vines? Are they going to have to say, Well, I was planning to sell this wine for 20 bucks a gallon, now I'm going to sell it for 10. [00:05:00] What are some of the dynamics that are going to happen during this time? [00:05:04] Eddie Urman: Well, I think the third rung is consumption, right? Unfortunately the trend over the last two years is consumption is going down in general. And we don't see any signs of it at this time. That's showing it's necessarily going up. We're optimistic and hopeful that it will. And we look forward to seeing the data after the holiday season, but that rung is going to be really important. [00:05:25] The other part is still supply. So pushing vineyards. And we are seeing a lot of people push vineyards. There's no clear number yet of what's been pushed or what will be pushed, but it does seem like there's a lot of parties that will be either ceasing to farm or will be removing vineyards. [00:05:41] Craig Macmillan: This is for either of you to pick up. Are there particular segments where we're seeing this more than in others? Premium versus luxury example. [00:05:48] Audra Cooper: The removal seemed to be really heavily weighted towards the Valley specifically, more of the value tier, because that's our largest volume by far. So we see a lot of removals, particularly in the South Valley that really started to occur even before we felt really oversupplied, and then it started to move north from there, pushed into the Central Coast and even to some degree the North Coast as well. [00:06:10] So you're seeing removals throughout the state of California, and you could even argue that you've seen removals in the Pacific Northwest as well, there's been an oversupply position there, particularly in Washington, and the only two areas that we don't see that dynamic is perhaps Texas to a degree, as well as Oregon. [00:06:27] But there again, they're starting to feel oversupplied as well. They're kind of on the back end of this [00:06:31] the Central Valley is the furthest ahead. And so we may actually see a little bit of a slowdown in removals. They're coming up after the 26th vintage. However, it remains to be seen. I mean, water , constrictions and regulations are going to play a huge factor in that as well, as it will be in the central coast in the near future. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Are there alternate or other crops that may go in, into place instead of grapes? [00:06:53] Audra Cooper: Unfortunately, right now, there's not a good answer for that. In the past, you'd say yes. And there were several alternative crops, particularly in the valley and the central coast, especially when you think of Santa Barbara and Monterey County. Paso Robles is in a little bit of a different position without, you know, a true crop to turn over to. But all of agriculture in California is struggling and has been really affected in the last 24 months, [00:07:16] Craig Macmillan: why the last 24 months, do you think? [00:07:18] Audra Cooper: you know, that's a good question. Part of it is kind of weather patterns in regards to some larger crops and oversupply consumers have certainly had some. Tighter budgets in a lot of respects to the economy. Inflation has played a huge role in that. When we talk about the wine industry, the wine industry is not a necessity as far as the goods. There is certainly a movement towards, you know, what they call no amount of alcohol is healthy for any individual of drinking age. So that certainly has affected our industry, but it's also affected other crops as well and other, other beverages, specifically alcohol. [00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, in the Central Coast, what, what have you been seeing? [00:07:56] Eddie Urman: As far as vendor removals or as [00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, as far as vineyard removals, things like that. [00:08:01] Eddie Urman: I mean, there are a large number of vineyards that are being pushed out. It's substantial both in Monterey County in Paso Robles, there's parties we're talking to that are also talking about pushing. This upcoming year and not replanting for a year or two. Some are potentially considering alternate other options where they can. But to segue on that, unfortunately it is exceedingly difficult right now to go to any other crop. Cause none of them are necessarily performing super well. [00:08:28] Craig Macmillan: Right. One thing that I'm kind of surprised by based on what you said, Audra, was that we're having the most removal in that value segment where we have the most supply. It would seem to me that if demand out there in the marketplace and folks don't have a lot of money, it seems like there'd be more demand for those value products. [00:08:48] Like, I would think that the contraction would be at the higher level, the expensive level, as opposed to the lower price level. Is there a mechanism there that I'm missing? [00:08:56] Audra Cooper: I think there's not necessarily a mechanism per se. I think there's a layer of complication there that doesn't make it a simple apples to apples position in regards to where consumers are spending their money. A lot of consumers who are brought by, you know, ultra premium to luxury, they may have not been as affected in a relative sense by the economy and inflation is someone who is perhaps playing in more of that value tier. [00:09:21] Okay. Whether it was bag in a box, larger liter, whatever it may have been, you know, that tier that's 12.99 and below had already started to see some impacts during pre immunization. And that was from 2012 until about 2020. And then it's just been really wonky since 2020 in our industry and really difficult to read the tea leaves and as far as where things were going. And I think a lot of the new plantings that we did, In 2011 through 2016 really came online in the central valley as well. So it just, it was almost a perfect storm, unfortunately, for the value tier. But that's not to say that these other tiers haven't been impacted as well, just to a lesser degree. [00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly. Is this also true on the bulk wine side, Audra? [00:10:04] Audra Cooper: Oh, certainly. I think anytime that you look at our industry, the bulk wine market actually leads the trend in regards to the direction we're going. So anytime we start to see multiple vintages, Or one vintage really start to increase in volume and availability in all likelihood. We're about 12 months, maybe eight behind the market with grapes. [00:10:25] So bulk will start to kind of slow down, stack up on inventory. Prices will start to drop. We'll still be doing just fine on grapes. We'll get multi year contracts. Prices are at least sustainable, if not profitable. And then suddenly we'll start to see the same trend on grapes. [00:10:39] Craig Macmillan: How many, or, and Eddie might be able to answer this for the Central Coast. How many folks on the grape side are having wines made from their grapes? Like under contract strictly for bulk. I've got a hundred tons of Sauvignon Blanc unsold. That's a lot, but unsold. I'm going to go ahead and take my chances on the bulk market. [00:11:00] Eddie Urman: you're saying Specking it. [00:11:01] So yeah, crushing it and specking it on the bulk market. Surely there are parties that did that, but I would say there is definitely a lot less parties that did that this year. In 2024 specifically. multiple reasons. One, specifically in Paso Robles, the crop was quite light which increased some late demand for some Cabernet specifically. [00:11:22] Sauvignon Blanc was one of the other varieties that was , in demand because of how light it was. Monterey in Santa Barbara County, it seems like there were parties that decided to just leave grapes on the vine. even in internal vineyards for companies that produce their own wine rather than turn it into bulk. And Audra, please add anything if you feel. [00:11:43] Audra Cooper: I think from a specific standpoint, you know, that was a great way of answering that. I think one of the things to keep in mind is I, I know that we should definitely be mindful of educating and being informative in a general sense, right? The rule of thumb when you're a grape grower and you're trying to sell fruit is if it is difficult to sell as grapes, It will typically be exponentially more difficult to sell as bulk wine. [00:12:07] And so taking that position as a way of bringing profit back , to your vineyard, nine times out of 10 is not going to work out. And that one time is technically a lightning strike and it's extraordinarily difficult to predict that [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: So not a lot of folks wouldn't be wise to do that for a lot of folks. [00:12:23] Audra Cooper: generally. No, I mean, I think most growers, particularly independent growers do not have the wherewithal or the risk adversity to be able to play the bulk market in any significant way. Okay. Mm [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's talk about wineries playing the bulk market. I've got extra stuff. Now, if it's all internal, if I'm growing my own grapes and turning them into my products, it sounds like I would want to maybe leave things on the vine, or just simply not put my investment into producing those wines. Where do bulk wines come from if they're not coming from spec grower spec operations, if they're coming from wineries in particular? [00:13:01] Things that are cut out for quality, things that are cut out for volume [00:13:04] Audra Cooper: Yeah, a multitude of reasons. I mean, the wineries typically use the bulk wine market as what I had alluded to earlier, which is a pressure release valve, right? When they are short or they are long, they're looking to the bulk market, whether that's to buy or sell. Now, that's certainly not every single winery that does that. Particularly some boutique operations, or even a lot of the DTCs would prefer not to play on the bulk wine market, but at times dabble in it. [00:13:27] Another reason to go to the bulk wine market as a buyer is to start a program. If you've gotten, you know, interest from a retailer, for example, for, you know, a control label that's an easy way to research whether or not it is an economic profitable project for your winery, as well as whether or not you can actually find the varietal. And the volume needed for that project. [00:13:49] So there is a multitude of reasons for the bulk wine market to essentially exist and be utilized. But the traditional model is to sell excess on the bulk wine market to someone else who actually needs it. The challenge right now is, we hit about 29 million gallons of actively listed bulk wine for California back in April or June, and that number really didn't decrease until recently. It's the highest inventory that we'd ever seen going into harvest, and when we have those dynamics, that bulk wine market's utilization becomes a little bit, shall I say, sludgy, in the sense of, Most everyone's trying to sell they're not trying to buy. [00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you have anything to add? [00:14:30] Eddie Urman: no, I think Audra summed it up pretty good. I mean, you asked, how does it end up on the bulk market? I don't think at this point, there's a ton of players that are planning to put it on the bulk market per Audra's point, but wineries are in their best faith trying to secure the amount of fruit they need to then make wine. That they have a home for IE sale, you know, some sort of sales, but as we've seen contraction in sales, unfortunately for some parties, they're forced to make decisions to put it on the bulk market. That'd be correct. Audra. [00:14:59] Audra Cooper: be a correct way of saying it. And also to have to remember, we're essentially making wine for the future when we're harvesting fruit, right and putting it in tank. And so it's really difficult to predict exactly how much 2024 someone's actually going to be able to put out on the shelf and ship. So I think that's the other element to is, by their model , what they purchased and what they received now, of course, 24 is going to be a poor example of that with how light the crop was, but in general, they're buying for what they predict to be their demand and needs [00:15:30] and in all reality, when it's bottled. Packaged and shipped out, those numbers may look dramatically different. Hence the reason why it's going to end up on the bulk market. If it in fact is already in excess. There are some negotiants that may actually in some years where they think the market's pretty good and they can be profitable, we'll go out and spec, but that kind of business model is few and far between compared to say 15 years ago, [00:15:54] Craig Macmillan: Interesting and that kind of leads us to where we are now. You've already touched on it a little bit. We just finished, this is November of 2024, we're just wrapping up the harvest in California. Obviously it's a crystal ball thing, but basically, at the moment, how are we looking? It sounds like we had a light harvest. I'm going to ask you about that. A light harvest. And it sounds like that was pretty much true throughout the coast of California. Is that right? [00:16:20] Audra Cooper: generally, yes, there were regions and AVAs that did better than others. For example, parts of the North Coast with the exception of Sonoma and Napa, so Mendocino Lake and Sassoon, they were not as light as, say, Paso Robles on Paso Robles Cabernet or Sauvignon Blanc, but they were still below expectations in most cases. There's just certain areas that were impacted further. far more and may actually be at historical low yields. And I'll let Eddie touch upon kind of his experience specifically in Paso, because I think it's one of the more impacted regions in California. [00:16:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Eddie. [00:16:56] Eddie Urman: Yeah. I think kind of extrapolate on what Audra was speaking to. Paso Robles was exceptionally light last year. I think, you know, our numbers are fluctuating and we'll, we'll see what was actually processed, but potentially 50 percent down from the five year average on Paso cab. And potentially one of the lightest crops we've seen in, potentially 20 years, or at least for sure in my career. Luckily 2024 for Paso was light. And because of that, there were people trying to secure extra cab and South Blanc towards the end of harvest. Unfortunately to, to Audra's point, the rest of the state wasn't as light in other areas. It's going to be pretty interesting to see how it all unfolds because it's probably more regional. [00:17:39] Craig Macmillan: And so we're saying fortunately light because the longterm impact would be that we will have less wine going into an already crowded marketplace. [00:17:50] Eddie Urman: But we also came off 2023, which was probably historically one of the largest crops we've ever seen in the state. So if we would have had a crop like that back to back, that would have been devastating. [00:18:01] Audra Cooper: Yeah, man, that's, that's so very true. And I think it's really important too, to hit upon, you know, the late season purchasing and the run that we saw on grapes. specifically in Paso for Cabernet and to some degree Sauvignon Blanc as well. But I'm going to really kind of lean towards Cab and even some of the red blenders. A lot of that was replacement demand. So it was demand that had been met by a current contract, but because the crop was so extraordinarily light, It had to be made up for somewhere. So there was a need for the fruit that was contracted, but if we didn't have that dynamic with available grapes, we probably would have had grapes left on the vine. [00:18:38] And we did to some degree, but just far less than what was predicted in 2024. [00:18:44] Craig Macmillan: This reminds me also of the, the concept of volatility. How volatile is the bulk wine grape grape market? We talked about these long time frames, which means your price changes you would think would be slow. Is, is there a lot of jumping around just in the course of a calendar year? [00:18:59] Audra Cooper: Yes and no. It really depends on the year. I would certainly say that in very light years we will see more volatility on price. Then in years where it's way oversupplied, or we have a large crop that creates more stability, good or bad, with a heavier crop. But it's not as volatile as maybe some other markets that people are trying to, you know, short on, for example, with the Wall Street guys. It's not quite like that either. So there is a little bit more stability built into it. [00:19:27] I think the challenge Happens often is a lot of people build their business models off of the district averages and the district averages don't show as much volatility as the, you know, yearly spot market does. [00:19:40] And unfortunately, it used to be a rule of thumb that about 10 percent of California supply was on the spot market every single year. Now I think that's closer to probably 30 something percent. I mean, it's really jumped in the last few years. [00:19:54] We have to remember our industry has been in a really interesting and an unfortunate position of retracting over the last couple of years with consumer demand declining, with the economic impacts with inflation, with lack of, you know, operating loans being readily available like they were. [00:20:10] I mean, things have changed pretty dramatically. I have a strong belief. I won't even say hope because hope's not a strategy. I have a strong belief that, you know, as we go through some of these challenges, We'll essentially build back and we'll get to a healthier position. And I do think that some of the worst things are some of the bigger pain points we either, recently have gone through and are over with or that we're in currently. So I don't think it's going to get much worse, but it remains to be seen. That one's a hard one to kind of figure out. But my, my thought is that with the lighter crop, it's certainly going to help the bulk wine market, not stack up, you know, a large fifth vintage, cause we have currently five vintages stacked. Stacked on top of each other in bulk wine market, which again, is the most amount of vintages I've seen in the 18 years I've been doing this. And that does show, you know, we met with a client yesterday and they said, our industry is sick. And I think that's actually a really great way of putting it. We're we're kind of in a sick position and we just need to figure out how to get to a healthier spot. [00:21:10] Craig Macmillan: five vintages stacked up that, so we're talking, there's like 2019 that are still in the market. Then [00:21:16] Audra Cooper: There is a little tiny bit of 2019, there's a tiny bit of 2020, and then you get into 21, 22, 23, and then the 24s are starting to come on. [00:21:25] Craig Macmillan: is there a home for something that's that old, even [00:21:30] 2020, [00:21:31] Audra Cooper: I mean, 2022 is about the oldest vintage back that I would say, in all likelihood, there's a reasonable wine based home, and even that's starting to get a little bit long in the tooth when we talk about 21 and 2020. Forget about 2019, that should have gone somewhere at some point long ago. Those vintages in all likelihood, again, they're smaller amounts, I think they're less than 100, 000 gallons each. [00:21:57] They're gonna have to go somewhere, whether it's destroyed or they go to DM. [00:22:01] Craig Macmillan: right? What's DM. [00:22:03] Audra Cooper: Distilled materials. [00:22:04] Craig Macmillan: There we go. Perfect. [00:22:06] Eddie, if you were advising a grape growing, what is your view? Looking ahead, what's your crystal ball say as far as removals, planting, varietal changes, clone changes, rootstock changes, anything like that? [00:22:20] Eddie Urman: Yeah, well we get that question a lot and it's pretty difficult to answer. At this point, you know, growers should really be considering which blocks they should be farming. They should be strongly considering pushing out blocks that are older or have no chance at receiving a price sustainably farm it. economically. And as far as planting goes right now, it's all over the board. It depends on the region, you know, where you're at within the central coast. That's which is my region specifically. And even then it's pretty hard to justify to somebody right now. It's a good time to plant. [00:22:56] That's [00:22:57] Craig Macmillan: that does make sense, I am thinking about other interviews that I've done with, with plant, plant pathology. Where it seems like everything is going to someplace bad in a hand basket because vines are dying. Do I replant that? You would think that diseases, like trunk disease, for instance, would alleviate some of this. [00:23:15] Vines would need to come out of production. Do you see that kind of thing happening? Do you think people are picking not just older, but maybe damaged or diseased or infested vineyards, taking those out of production and then not replanting those? [00:23:27] Eddie Urman: Yeah, they definitely are. The, difficult thing with vineyards compared to certain other crops is the fixed costs that go into installing a vineyard, which has gone up drastically in the last 15 years. So it's really difficult for a grower to push a vineyard you know, spend $2,000 an acre to push a vineyard or whatever it may be, and then decide, okay, we're just going to replant next year and spend 45, 000 or 40, 000. On reinstalling a vineyard. It's, it's a lot of money. Especially if it's on spec and, and honestly, sometimes it can't even get financing to do it. [00:23:59] So unfortunately, a lot of these players will need to say, we'll try to stick it out and say, okay, what if we just weather the storm one more year, the eternal optimist, the eternal optimist. View. I think we're finally starting to see that some people are, are making some tough decisions and it's, it's sad to see, but it's what needs to happen as far as pushing some of these vineyards that are diseased or too old to be productive. [00:24:20] Audra Cooper: I think he did a, you know, a service to everyone by talking about that, because the older plantings for as long as people had to hold on to them you know, we, talk a lot about, you know, oh, the 1990s plantings and they need to go away. Well, that's really easy to say it's a little more difficult to do, particularly again, if you're an independent grower. Relatively small, maybe your 20 acres, you know, the likelihood of you being able to get a planting contract and or getting financing to redevelop is slim to none. So you're going to hold on as long as you can. And that really has kind of added to the bottom line of supply as well. We have a lot of acreage that is finally starting to get removed that should have been removed years ago. [00:25:01] Craig Macmillan: And again, thinking in like classical high school economic terms It seems like grape prices have been going up, at least on Paso and some of those kind of more luxury areas. Is that true? Or is there a real cap on price compared to what it could have been? Or are we in decline? What, what's, what's happening right now? [00:25:24] Ha [00:25:24] Audra Cooper: I think that's actually a very loaded question in some respects because [00:25:30] Craig Macmillan: yeah, it [00:25:31] Audra Cooper: It's highly dependent on what we're talking about, right? If we're talking about Westside and we're talking about some of the Rhone Whites that are now in vogue, yeah, their pricing has started to increase even in spite of the market, right? Because they are in demand, but they're more of a niche market as well. They're not part of the macro market. Whereas you look at Paso Cab, The district average was starting to kind of climb back up again, but if you look at the spot market, it has declined dramatically over the last two years. And I think we're in our third decline now, as far as per year per vintage you look at, for example, Monterey County, Pinot, and I think you can easily make the argument prices dramatically decreased over the last several years. You know, it had a great run post sideways and unfortunately we way over planted and we planted it in a time where there was a lot of virus material that unfortunately got put into the ground and then we oversaturated the market on the shelves as well from a national distribution standpoint, if you want to talk about maybe some cool climate, Sarah, yeah, pricing continues to go up, but they're again, very nichey. So I guess the long winded thing is macro sense. Prices have been on the decline. Niche, it depends on what it is and where it is. [00:26:46] Craig Macmillan: And I, I got this from you, Audra, from another interview you did. What is the difference between a light harvest and a short harvest? And the reason I ask this is because it, on the wine side, talking to people, it's like, Oh, it's going to be a short harvest, coming up short. As in, I don't have enough. [00:27:02] I'm coming up short. It's like, I don't have dollar bills in my pocket. That's totally different than having not a lot of grapes. [00:27:09] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, from a market perspective in which we operate, those two words have very different definitions. Light to me is regarding your yield per acre, your production. It's a light year. We're below average thresholds. Short on the other hand is more of an economic demand supply term that we utilize when The actual crop being delivered falls short of the actual demand. And that's a little bit tricky this year because a lot of people were saying the crop is short. Well, it was in only some cases. For example, Sauvignon Blanc, specifically in Paso, it was short. There's, I don't think there's really any arguing that. Paso Cab, I think it depends on what winery and which grower you are. There were growers who were sold out and fully contracted that were not able to meet their contracts and their wineries would have taken every single time they could have delivered. That's a short situation. Now, on the other hand, I've got some other stuff that say is like a 1997 planting that, you know, didn't have a whole lot of demand. They were light in their crop yield, but they were not short in their supply. [00:28:18] Craig Macmillan: What are things that growers in particular can do to set themselves apart in the marketplace? You mentioned niche, we've mentioned county average pricing, wherever you would like to be selling their grapes for more than that. And they do. What are things that people can do to kind of set themselves apart? Eddie. [00:28:35] Eddie Urman: That's a great question. It's a very difficult question. I think I'll start on the other end of the spectrum. You hear somewhat frequently people talk about minimal farming, or can they do just to get you by this year, get you into the next year what we've discussed with multiple people and what my belief is, unfortunately, if you decide to minimally farm or do the absolute bare minimum, you're boxing yourself into a area of the market. Where there's no chance you're gonna get a price that's really gonna even break even. I think most parties would agree to that. The best thing for our industry, and specifically Paso Robles, the Central Coast, is we need to continue to deliver quality products that, you know, a winery can make into good wine and sell at a good price. Right. So we need to continue to improve on our farming techniques, improve on our utilization of the resources we have to provide that product and reach a sustainable point of price to where vineyards can sustain, growers can continue to stay in business, and wineries can then take that product and sell it in a bottle profitably at a store or restaurant or whatever it may be. [00:29:45] So I kind of danced around your question, but my personal opinion is, if you want to be in this business and you want to create a product, you know, create a grape that people want to buy, you have to put the money into it to farm it. It sounds easy to say it's extremely difficult for the people making these decisions right now. [00:30:03] Craig Macmillan: You may have to spend a little money. [00:30:05] Audra Cooper: you definitely do. I mean, I think, Anytime that you slow down on what you spend, unfortunately you start to decrease your marketability. And that is so difficult in years like this, where as a broker, you watch someone cut their budget and their spending in half and you immediately notice, I can't sell your fruit. And that's a difficult thing because you can't necessarily guarantee that you can sell their fruit either. So how do you justify someone spending, you know, their normal budget? [00:30:37] One of the things that growers specifically can do is they can identify their value proposition. And for many, it's going to be unique, and some of them are going to have similarities. Part of that is, and I'm probably going to get myself in trouble a little bit here, the old kind of lead with, you know, I've gotten these gold medals for the wine that I produced off of my vineyard at these, you know, county fairs or this competition. Unfortunately, they just don't count anymore with marketing winemakers that are, you know, new on the scene, or perhaps with a new corporation, or, Somebody who's been through kind of the ropes, these things don't have any weight anymore. [00:31:17] But what does have weight is understanding what your buyer's needs are and how your vineyard actually fits those needs. So really understanding, where you fit into the market. Not everyone's going to have the best grapes in the region. And that's okay because maybe that is already oversaturated. [00:31:34] Maybe you need to hit a middle tier winery that's selling at 15. 99 and you know that you can be sustainable at $1,500 because this is your budget XYZ and it fits. You know, you don't necessarily have to be the 3, 000 or 4, 000 guy on the west side in Adelaide or Willow Creek. That's not going to be for everybody. [00:31:54] So really finding your position is really important and also what you provide to that buyer. And it's really simple, and I know it's actually probably very elementary to say, but what can you do to help make the people you work with at that winery make them look good? Because they'll also do that for you in return. [00:32:11] Craig Macmillan: and specifically in your experience, especially to start with you Eddie are there particular practices management styles, management philosophies that seem to be attractive to wineries that they're more likely to maybe buy from that grower? [00:32:25] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I'll just probably give a little more detail here, but my experience comes mostly from larger scale farming. At the end of the day, I think the more you put into farming it appropriately, IE you know, good pruning techniques good cultural practices, whether they be shoot thinning leafing, depending on your trellis style wire moves second crop drop or, or green drop. Those are all things that, you know, wineries are going to think are a positive thing. [00:32:54] Now, is it going to match every single program to Audra's point? And you don't always have to be the person selling $3,000 per ton cabernet. Some people can make just fine in those middle tiers. [00:33:03] And we need those people too, because there's bottles that need to go on the shelves there. So if you can have an open, reasonable discussion with your winery and what their expectations are and what you can actually provide at a certain price point and yield I think that's really important place to start. [00:33:18] Craig Macmillan: Audra? [00:33:18] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I think there's a couple things. Again, this is very elementary, but say what you do and do what you say. Following through with your word and what your plan is, is very, very important and being very consistent with your practices and the end product that you try to provide. I mean, consistency in agriculture, particularly in growing wine grapes, is very difficult, but those who achieve it are the ones that typically don't have as much volatility in their ability to sell fruit. on, you know, a term contract, typically. [00:33:46] I think the other thing, too, keeping in mind is managing personalities, too, and understanding, you know, who's the right fit for each other. I think that's really important, I think, from a practice's standpoint and I think this is becoming more and more commonly acceptable, but shoot thinning, when I first arrived in Paso even Monterey County, for that matter, is, was not very common. [00:34:10] It's becoming more and more common, and I think it's actually very important. And Eddie has kind of reaffirmed and reassured me since he started with Turrentine Brokerage, and I kind of failed to remember my basics. Pruning is everything. And I think sometimes often more than not, you know, pruning actually kind of gets It's in my mind kind of degraded and, you know, people try to make up for things later on and we start with the right foundation, usually have some consistency. [00:34:36] Craig Macmillan: So that's somewhere you may want to pay more attention and spend some more of your money there than in some other things. [00:34:42] Audra Cooper: Well, and your plan starts there, right? [00:34:43] So whatever you start with at pruning, that's your beginning plan. In all likelihood, you need to write that out. [00:34:49] Eddie Urman: , be intentional with your pruning plan. From the time you start the season, you should have a plan. Okay. This is what we're going to target this year and you got to stick to it. . [00:34:57] Craig Macmillan: What about, , certifications? There was a time not that long ago when going for whether it's SIP or organic we've got regenerative now a lot of folks looked at that and said, hey, this is going to help set me apart. This is going to help and with buyers, buyers are going to be interested in wanting these types of products. [00:35:18] Have you seen that take place? [00:35:20] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I have a really, really strong opinion on sustainable certification. And I'm sure a lot of our clientele is probably tired of me hitting this drum too loudly, but the reality is at one point, sustainable certification, regardless of which it is. Was a nice to have and the occasional request now. It's a it's a need to have must have [00:35:39] if you are not sustainably certified you are cutting your marketability I wouldn't say in half but pretty close now a lot of our buyers are requiring it and even if they don't require it suddenly asking at the end of harvest Oh, did they have a certification? and then the answer is no well now you may be on the chopping block of we may not re sign that fruit because Our retailers are asking us, what are we doing in regards to, you know, our kind of our social impacts in our economic and our environmental impacts? And it may not be on the bottle per se, but it's in the conversation. And so to be able to provide that information to the end user is really important [00:36:19] when it comes to the other certifications. Certainly organic is trending. It is trended off and on in our industry. Unfortunately, we don't see a big premium being paid for, for grapes that are organically certified with some exceptions. [00:36:33] And so that's really hard, I think, from an industry to, to really grow in that manner. Regenerative is certainly another trend. I think we're on the beginning cusp of it, so I don't see it as, you know, impactful as sustainably certified on macro level. As I do sustainable. So it'll be interesting to see where that goes. [00:36:53] I think organic those probably going to trend a little bit more in 26 and 27 just based on the players that are currently asking about it. [00:37:01] Craig Macmillan: What do you have to add, Eddie? [00:37:02] Eddie Urman: Yeah, I think Audra's absolutely right. We are in a state of excess or oversupply. So wineries are more intensely looking at. How can we differentiate one vineyard or one grower versus the next? And sustainability comes up in most conversations regarding that. So it's turning more from an option to more of a necessity. [00:37:24] I think one thing that there's a trend for unfortunately too, or it can be unfortunately for some people, is they're herbicide free. So there are some people that are interested in herbicide free. It's not a certification, [00:37:34] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, just simply as a practice. Yeah, I, agree with you. I'm hearing more and more about that all the time. And that's a, that's a big shift for a lot of growers. That's a very costly change to make. But you're absolutely right. That is a topic of conversation. That is definitely something that people are talking about in, in the broader world. There's a lot of news attention to that, especially around places like France and stuff, or that's going to be kind of a requirement probably in the future. [00:38:01] Audra Cooper: I just want to add really quick. One of the challenges that we see is Oftentimes wineries will come to the market requesting these differentiation points, right, in regards to practices, and it's really difficult because when they come to the market, a lot of these processes and procedures needed to have already been put into place, right? They would have already had to be intended or implemented in the field. And so we're, again, almost a bridge behind in regards to what demand currently is and, and this particular trend. Especially when we talk about organic herbicide free. These are very intentional, time intensive planning processes that we've got to get ahead of. [00:38:43] And I don't have a great answer because the market doesn't support a higher price per ton right now. And the reality is there are capital intensive changes in farming, but we're going to need to find a solution here soon because I do see this as a challenge in the market moving forward. [00:38:59] Craig Macmillan: and I think there's some research that kind of bears that out even at the consumer level where if I'm presented with two products that are the same price and one has a desirable quality, whether it's a practice or certification or something like that, you would say, you know, Which one would you like? [00:39:14] You say, well, I want the sustainable one. And then you ask the consumer, well, how much would you pay? And there's very little willingness to pay difference in some of these studies. In others, they show a meaningful amount, but a lot of them, a lot of the studies don't. And so I think we're kind of moving towards a standard operating procedure that's gonna be around these things and that's gonna raise costs and that's gonna be a real financial challenge for people, I agree. [00:39:38] Eddie, what is one thing you would tell growers around this topic of the market and everything else? [00:39:43] Eddie Urman: I think it was , the statement I made earlier is be intentional, like have a plan going into this year. We farmers tend to be optimistic and we tend to just think, okay, well, this year it's going to turn, you know, we've had a couple of bad years. It's going to get better this year. There's no guarantee that's going to take place this year. And we'd love to sit here and say it will. So make sure you have a plan that makes sense. And has a reasonable chance at having a positive outcome. If it's farming your 30 year old vineyard, 35 year old vineyard, that's for sure, only going to get three tons an acre or less on a best case scenario, no weather influences, no outside factors, no heat spells, and it's going to cost you 5, 000 an acre to farm it. You're not going to make your money back in most instances, unfortunately, not even break even. [00:40:29] Craig Macmillan: Audra, what is one thing you would tell growers? [00:40:31] Audra Cooper: That's a good question. And I think it's highly dependent on the grower and the clientele and where they are and what they have. I think that planning for your future is critical right now, not taking it year by year. And making changes in advance of needing to make changes is a huge one. Honestly, it's really getting sharp with your business pencil and in your business intention, your business plan. It's not just farming right now. I think you have to plan on how do you survive the current marketplace and how do you get to the other side? And unfortunately, it's not a cookie cutter plan for everyone. It's very customized and it's very specific. [00:41:11] And the other thing that I mentioned earlier, really understanding your value proposition in the market. That is critical because I can't tell you the number of times I've had people And very wonderful, good growers who are very intelligent, but they were very misguided by whether it was, you know, a real estate agent or a consultant or just people surrounding who also had good intentions, but they weren't knowledgeable about the marketplace. And, you know, those growers either planted wrong, entered the market wrong, had to have high expectations built into their budget on the price per ton long term, all these things matter. And all these things really matter for success. [00:41:48] Craig Macmillan: Where can people find out more about you two? Audra. [00:41:51] Audra Cooper: Yeah you can go to our website, www. TurrentineBrokerage. You can of course call myself or Eddie or email us. You'll often see us up on, you know, a stage or in a room speaking on behalf of the marketplace. I've got something coming up soon in February as well. Yeah, there's, there's a multitude of ways of getting a hold of us. [00:42:10] Probably our website's the easiest because it has all the information. [00:42:13] Craig Macmillan: Fantastic. Well, thank you both for being on the podcast. Really interesting conversation. lot to think about. A lot to think about. Intentional farming, I think that's one of the key things we're taking away here is what's your intention. And that's not always such an easy thing to decide upon. You know, it's tough. [00:42:31] Audra Cooper: It is tough. We thank you and we appreciate it. It was a pleasure talking with you as well. [00:42:36] Eddie Urman: yeah, thank you very much, Craig. [00:42:37] Craig Macmillan: You bet. So our guest today, Audra Cooper, she is director of grape brokerage and Eddie Urman, who is central coast grape broker for Turentine brokerage. Thank you both for coming out and to our listeners, keep downloading those episodes. There's lots of great information there. Check the show page or there's lots of resources and look for other podcasts. [00:42:55] We have tons and tons of episodes on all kinds of topics and please keep coming back and thank you. [00:43:01] Audra Cooper: Thank you. [00:43:02] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening. Make sure you check out the show notes for links to Turrentine brokerage crush reports, and sustainable wine growing podcast episodes, 185, why you need to talk about sustainability. And 221 future proof your wine business with Omnichannel communication. [00:43:27] If you liked this show, do us a big favor by sharing it with a friend, subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts at vineyardteam.org/podcast. And you can reach us at podcast at vineyardteam.org. [00:43:40] Until next time, this is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team.   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlcMuch research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted? In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor's kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook. Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she's learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover. As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain. But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn't have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don't try to charge forward before the congregation has healed. Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It's also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who's in a church with others who've experienced deep church hurt. She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study. Guests Kayleigh Clark Kayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score. [00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. [00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast. [00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. [00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. [00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. [00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. [00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today. [00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now. [00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work? [00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy. [00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from. [00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here? [00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches. [00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working. [00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out. [00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma. [00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of. [00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple. [00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it. [00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen. [00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work. [00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that. We talk a lot about that on a lot of podcasts, but we often don’t address again, what’s this collective trauma that, that, you know, that it actually has a social aspect. So talk about why is it important that we begin addressing collective trauma and not just individual trauma, though, you know, obviously we each need to heal as individuals, but collectively as well. [00:08:24] Kayleigh: Yeah. So collective trauma is a newer field, even in psychological studies. So it’s, Not as old as individual trauma studies, and it actually became more popular through the work of Kai Erikson, who’s a sociologist. He’s not even a psychologist, but he studied collective trauma in kind of what he refers to as unnatural disasters. [00:08:43] Kayleigh: And so these disasters that are experienced by communities that have a human, like, blame component. So it was due to somebody’s negligence due to somebody’s poor leadership due to somebody’s abuse, and it’s on a community. And so Kai Erickson notes the, the social, he calls it the social dimension of trauma or collective trauma. [00:09:03] Kayleigh: And what he, he details there is that collective trauma is anything that disrupts and ruptures the, uh, relationships within a community. Distorting and taking apart their, uh, he calls it communality instead of community, but it’s their sense of, like, neighborliness. It’s their sense of being together. It’s their, Their shared identity and their, their shared memories are all now distorted. [00:09:26] Kayleigh: And so I think when we’re speaking specifically about the church, and when we’re looking at religious trauma and congregational trauma, we need to remember that the church is first and foremost, a community. And so sometimes I think that’s missed in our kind of American individualism. You know, a lot of people kind of view spirituality as this individualistic thing, but the church is a community. [00:09:48] Kayleigh: And so when we come together as the body of Christ, you know, when wounding happens, when trauma comes, it breaks down the relationships within that congregation, which really. is what makes it a church. The relationships are what make that a church. And so when trauma comes in and disrupts those and starts causing the divisions and the distrust and the he said, she said, and the choosing of sides and the church splits and all of these things have these ripple effects on the community. [00:10:19] Kayleigh: Um, and they really are, are traumatizing. And so what happens is that if we don’t deal, if we’re only dealing with the individual trauma, In part, that’s usually dealing with people who have left the church, right? And so usually the people who are seeking individual healing from their religious trauma, who are able to name that, who are able to say, I went through this, have often stepped outside of the church. [00:10:42] Kayleigh: Sometimes just for a season, which is completely understandable. They need that time away. They need time to heal. They’re, they don’t, feel safe. But what we’re missing when we neglect the social dimension of religious trauma are often the people who stay are these congregations who can’t name it yet, who can’t articulate that what they’ve gone through is religious trauma, who who maybe are still trying to figure out what that means. [00:11:07] Kayleigh: Often it means that we’re missing, um, you know, these, these the church that I served in, you know, isn’t one of these big name churches that’s going to get, you know, newscasted about. And they can’t necessarily name what happened to them as religious trauma because nobody’s given them the language for it. [00:11:25] Kayleigh: And so we’ve often missed these, these declining churches. We’ve missed because we haven’t remembered that Trauma is communal that trauma is relational. And so we need to, yes, provide as much care and as much resourcing as we can for the healing of individuals, because you can’t heal the community if the individuals don’t know. [00:11:44] Kayleigh: But we really need to remember that the community as a whole. impacted, and that especially when we’re talking about the church, we want to be able to heal and restore those relationships. And to do that means we have to address the social dimensions of the religious trauma. And so [00:12:01] Julie: often the people that, that stay aren’t aware of what’s happened to them. [00:12:08] Julie: Are they not even aware they’re traumatized? [00:12:11] Kayleigh: Right, right. Yeah. [00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. You introduced this, this concept, which is great. I mean, it’s, it’s a riff off of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which, you know, um, just an incredible book by, uh, Dr. Vander Kolk. But this idea that the body of Christ keeps the score. [00:12:33] Julie: Describe what you mean by that, that the body of Christ keeps the score when there’s this kind of trauma that it’s experiencing. [00:12:40] Kayleigh: Sure. So you kind of alluded to it earlier when you were giving an example of the removing of a toxic pastor, right? And then just the placement of a new pastor. And so often what happens in these situations where there’s spiritual abuse or, um, clergy misconduct or any of those things that’s causing this religious trauma, the answer seems to be, well, let’s just remove the. [00:13:00] Kayleigh: Problem person. And then that will solve everything. Um, well, what happens is we forget that trauma is embodied, right? And so you can remove the physical threat. Um, but if you remove the physical threat or the problem person, but this congregation still has this embodied sense of trauma in which they perceive threat now. [00:13:23] Kayleigh: So they’re reacting to their surroundings out of that traumatized position, because that’s what the collective body has learned to do. And so you see this, um, It’s a silly example, but I use it because I think people see it a lot. So you have a new pastor come in and the new pastor has a great idea, at least he or she thinks it’s a great idea. [00:13:46] Kayleigh: And it probably has to do with removing pews or changing carpet color. Okay. And so they present this, what they think is just a great harmless idea. And the response of the congregation is almost volatile and the pastor can’t figure out why. And often, unfortunately, what pastors have kind of been taught to identify is that they must just idolatry. [00:14:11] Kayleigh: They just have the past as an idol for them and they need to kill this golden cow. Right. And so it becomes this theological problem. Sure, there might be cases where that is the truth, but often I would say that there’s, um, a wonderful. So another great book on trauma. It’s more on racialized trauma, but it deals a lot with historical trauma is, um, rest my Mac mannequins book, um, my grandmother’s hands and in it, he addresses this historical trauma that is embodied and he quotes Dr. [00:14:42] Kayleigh: Noel Larson, who says, if it’s hysterical, it’s probably historical. In other words, if the reaction to the thing happening doesn’t seem to match, like it seems out of proportion, either too energized or not enough energy around it, it’s probably connected to some kind of historical trauma that hasn’t been processed. [00:15:03] Kayleigh: And so we see this a lot in churches who are having a hard time being healthy and flourishing and engaging with the community around them. And. The reason why is often because they have this unhealed trauma that nobody’s given them language for. Nobody’s pointed out, nobody’s addressed for them. Um, and so it’s just kind of lingering under the surface, unhealed, unnamed, and it’s informing how they believe, how they act. [00:15:33] Kayleigh: Um, and so this is really What I mean when I say the body of Christ keeps the score is that the body of Christ has embodied this trauma and it’s coming out in their behaviors, in their actions, in their values, and our pastors are not equipped to address it from a trauma informed perspective. They’ve only been given tools to address it from maybe a theological position, or this kind of revitalization remissioning perspective. [00:16:02] Kayleigh: That often doesn’t work. [00:16:04] Julie: There’s so many things I’m thinking as as you’re talking. I mean one. to come in and do something. And then because people react to, I mean, basically that’s shaming them. It’s guilting them to say, Oh, you have an idol or what’s wrong with you that you can’t get on board. And the truth is they don’t know what’s wrong with them. [00:16:23] Julie: They, they don’t. And, and they’re hurt. And all they know is you just, they’re hurt and now you’ve hurt them. So now they don’t trust you. So way to go. Um, but I’m thinking maybe because we brought this up and I don’t mean to beat up on, on Willow Creek, but I’m thinking about. When the new pastor came in, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy, um, you know, they, they were bleeding money. [00:16:45] Julie: Obviously they, they did not have the resources they did before. So one of the first things they did was they centralized, which meant the campus pastors weren’t going to be preaching anymore. They were going to be pumping in video sermons. Here’s the pastor that people trusted on these campuses. Now, that person’s not going to be preaching, which then of course, all of them left. [00:17:06] Julie: They ended up leaving and the trauma you’d now it’s trauma upon trauma. And it just seems like, especially in so many of these churches, you bring somebody in and they want to move somewhere like, right. They want a thriving church. What they don’t want to do is be at a church and sit in your pain. And yet. [00:17:27] Julie: Unless that’s done, I mean, can these churches, I mean, can they move forward? I mean, what’s going to happen if you come in and you don’t? slow down and say, these people are hurting and I need to, I need to be a shepherd. Then that’s the other thing. It’s so many of these mega churches, and I know this isn’t unique to mega churches that this happens, but I, it’s the world in which I report so often is that these mega churches are very mission vision, five year plan oriented and what they’re not capable of doing. [00:17:59] Julie: I think so many of these, you know, and they always bring in the, the pastor. That’s a good orator, maybe not a shepherd at all. In fact, some of these guys even say, I’m not a shepherd, which that’s another, yeah, I mean, but, but to actually, they need a shepherd at that point. Right. I mean, these, these people need it. [00:18:20] Julie: So, I mean, again, what, what do they need to do? And what happens if they don’t do some of these things? [00:18:28] Kayleigh: So the thing that I have really been drawn to, especially as I study Jesus, and I look at what it means to be trauma informed in the pastorate. So I, I do believe that God is still working through pastors. [00:18:39] Kayleigh: Um, in fact, there’s a really beautiful section of scripture in Jeremiah 23, where God is addressing abusive shepherds and God’s response is, I will raise up new shepherds. So God still wants to work through shepherds. There is still a place for a pastor. The problem is, is I don’t think we’ve taught pastors how to lead out of a posture of compassionate curiosity. [00:19:03] Kayleigh: And so if you follow Jesus and you look at the way that Jesus interacts with hurting people, it is out of this beautiful, humble posture of compassionate curiosity. And so I was always struck by like, he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? And it always seemed like a. That’s a strange question. [00:19:20] Kayleigh: Like, he’s blind, Jesus. What do you think he and often it’s preached on, like, well, we need to be able to tell God what we want. And that’s maybe some of it. But I think it’s also the truth that God knows that it can be re traumatizing to somebody to tell them what they need and what they want. Right? So what we learned when we studied trauma is that it’s not. [00:19:40] Kayleigh: So especially when we’re talking trauma caused by abuse is that abuse is so connected to control. And so what has often happened to these victims of religious abuse of spiritual abuse is that they have had control taken from them entirely. And so when a new pastor comes in and tells them, this is what you need to get healthy again, and never takes the time to approach them from this. [00:20:02] Kayleigh: posture of compassionate curiosity, they can end up re traumatizing them. Um, but our pastors aren’t trained to ask these questions. And so, so often if you read, you know, and they’re well meaning books, you know, they’re, they’re trying to get to what’s going on in the heart of the church. They’re trying to get back to church health, but so many of the books around that have to deal with. [00:20:23] Kayleigh: Asking the church, what are you doing or what are you not doing? And trauma theory teaches us to ask a different question. And that question is what happened to you? And I think if pastors were trained to go into churches and ask the question, what happened to you and just sit with a church and a hold the church and, and listen to the stories of the church, they, they might discover that these people have never been given space to even think about it that way. [00:20:52] Kayleigh: You know, where they’ve just, they’ve had abusive leaders who have just been removed or they’ve had manipulative leaders who have just been removed and they’ve just been given a new pastor and a new pastor and nobody’s given them the space. To articulate what that’s done to them, um, as individuals and as a congregation. [00:21:09] Kayleigh: And so if we can learn to, to follow Jesus in just his curiosity, and he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? He, he says, who touched me when the woman reaches out and touches him. And that’s not a, it’s not a question of condemnation. That’s a question of permission giving. He knows that this woman needs more than physical healing. [00:21:28] Kayleigh: She needs relational healing. She needs to tell her story. And by pausing and saying, who touched me? He provides a space for her to share her story that she’s never been able to share with anyone before. And I think if we were to follow that Jesus, as pastors and as leaders, we would begin to love the Bride of Christ in such a way that would lead to her healing, instead of feeling the need to just rush her through some five year plan to what we think is healing and wholeness, and what actually may not be what they would say is what they need. [00:22:02] Julie: So many things you’re saying are resonating with me. And part of that’s because, uh, like I said, we’re living this. Um, I, I told you last week when we talked that our, our house church was going on a retreat, first retreat we’ve ever had. We’ve been together a little over, well, for me, I came in about two years ago and I think they had been meeting maybe eight or nine months before then. [00:22:29] Julie: Some of the people in our group, Um, don’t come out of trauma. Um, you know, one of our, one of the couples in our church, uh, they’re like young life leaders, really just delightful, delightful, delightful people, but they haven’t lived the religious trauma. One couple is, they’re from the mission field and they had a great missions experience. [00:22:55] Julie: The only trauma they might be experiencing is coming home to the U. S. The truth is they love the mission field, right? Um, and then. The remainder of us come from two, two churches, um, that, that had some sexual abuse that was really, you know, mishandled and the trust with the leaders was, was broken in really grievous ways. [00:23:19] Julie: Um, and then there’s me on top of having that, um, living in this space where, I mean, I just report on this all the time. And so, but one of the beautiful things that happened in this, in this group is that it did have leaders when we came into it and it triggered us. Like, you know, and for us it was like, oh, here’s the inside group and the outside group. [00:23:47] Julie: Like, we’re used to the ins and the outs, right? And, and we’re used to the inside group having power and control, and the rest of us just kind of go along with it. And, and we’re, we’re a tiny little group. Like we’re 20 some people, right? But, but it’s just, and, and we’re wonderful people. Wonderful people. [00:24:02] Julie: And yet we still like, it was like, mm. And um, and so. The beautiful thing is that those leaders recognize, like they didn’t fully understand it, but they said, you know, I think we need to just step down and just not have leaders. And I didn’t even realize till we went on this retreat what an act of service and of love that was for them to just say, were laying down any, any agendas we might’ve had, any even mission or vision that we might’ve had. [00:24:35] Julie: And for one of, you know, one of the guys, it was really hard for him cause he’s just like, Mr. Mr. Energy and initiative. And, and he was like, I better not take initiative because like, it’s, it’s not going to be good for these folks. Um, and on the retreat. So then, I mean, it was, it was really a Holy Spirit. [00:24:54] Julie: experience, I think for all of us, because there definitely was a camp that was like, okay, we’ve had this kind of healing time, but can, can we move forward a little bit? Like, can we, can we have some intentionality? And then there were part of us that were just like, oh my word, if we, if we, if we have leaders, why do we need leaders? [00:25:12] Julie: We’re 20 something people. Like we can just decide everything ourselves. And, and there really was somewhat of an impasse, but it’s interesting. The things that you said for me, And it was funny at one point. They’re like, can’t you just trust? And, you know, kind of like, what, what are you guys afraid of? You know? [00:25:29] Julie: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was control control. Like we’re afraid of control, um, or I’m afraid of control. Um, but what was so, so. Huge for me and I think was one of those again, Holy Spirit moments was when, you know, I was trying to like make a point about power dynamics, like you don’t realize power and like we have to be aware of how power is stewarded in a group like this because everybody has power. [00:25:59] Julie: If you don’t realize as a communicator the power that you have, like I’m aware now that because I can, I can form thoughts pretty quickly. That I can have a lot of influence in a group. I’m aware of that. And so, you know, there was even like a part where I was leading and then I was like, I can’t lead this next thing. [00:26:17] Julie: I’ve been leading too much, you know, and then we, and then we gave, we, somebody had a marker and we gave the marker to, to, um, one of the guys in our group who’s fantastic guy. And, um, And at one point, so, so anyway, I was talking about power and, and one of the guys was like, well, I don’t, I don’t really see power. [00:26:35] Julie: I don’t need. And I’m like, you have it, whether you realize it and you have it. And what was huge is that one of the other guys that sort of a leader was a leader was able to say what she’s talking about is real. Everybody has power. This is really important. And he was quite frankly, somebody with a lot of power in that group because he has a lot of trust, used to be a pastor. [00:26:57] Julie: Um, and for him to acknowledge that for the rest of us was huge. And then this, this other guy, I mean, he said at one point, Oh, well, you know, so and so’s holding the marker right now and he has power, doesn’t he? And I was like, yes, you’re getting it. That’s it. That’s it. Thank you. Because he’s like, you just reframed what we said and I wouldn’t have reframed it that way. [00:27:22] Julie: Like I wouldn’t. And I’m like, yes, exactly. It’s like, and it was like, it was like the light bulbs were going on and people were starting to get it. Um, and then another key, key moment was when one of the women who, you know, wasn’t, you know, from our church where we experienced stuff, who said, can you, can you tell me how that, how that felt for you when we used to have leaders? [00:27:46] Julie: And then for people to be able to express that. And people listened and it was like, and I was able to hear from this guy who felt like he was, he had a straight jacket, you know, because he, he like wants to use his, his initiative. Like he, he. You know, and God’s given that to him. It’s a good thing, you know. [00:28:07] Julie: And all I can say is it was just an incredible experience, an incredible moment, but it would not have happened if, and now I’m going to get kind of, it wouldn’t have happened if people cared more about the mission than the people. And they didn’t realize the people are the mission. This is Jesus work. He doesn’t care about your five year plan. [00:28:41] Julie: He doesn’t care about your ego and the big, you know, plans that you have and things you can do. What he cares is whether you’ll lay your life down for the sheep. That’s what shepherds do. And what I saw in, in our group was the willingness to, for people that have shepherding gifts to lay down their, you know, not literally their lives, but in a way their lives, their, their dreams, their hopes or visions, everything to love another and how that created so much love and trust, you know, in our group. [00:29:22] Julie: And we’re still like trying to figure this out, but yeah, it was, it was hugely, it just so, so important. But I thought how many churches are willing to do that, are willing to, to sit in the pain, are willing to listen. And I’m, I’m curious as you go in now, there’s so much of your work has become with ReStory is, is education and going into these churches. [00:29:52] Julie: You know, normally when this happens, And you told me there’s a, there’s a name for pastors that come in. It’s the afterpastor. Afterpastor. [00:30:00] Kayleigh: Yes. The afterpastor. [00:30:02] Julie: How many times does the afterpastor get it? And does he do that? [00:30:07] Kayleigh: So the problem is, and I can tell you, cause I have an MDiv. I went, I did all the seminary. [00:30:11] Kayleigh: I’m ordained. We don’t get trained in that. Um, so, and there is, um, like you said, so you use this guy as an example who has the clear. Initiative gifts. So they’re what would be called kind of the Apostle, um, evangelist gifts in like the pastoral gift assessment kind of deal. You’ve got the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. [00:30:34] Kayleigh: And right now there’s a lot of weight kind of being thrown behind the Apostle evangelist as kind of the charismatic leader who can set the vision. And so most of the books on pastoral You know, church health and church are written kind of geared and directed that way. Um, so we’re really missing the fact that when we’re talking about a traumatized church, what you really need is a prophet shepherd. [00:30:57] Kayleigh: Um, you need somebody who can come in and shepherd the people and care for them well, but also the prophet. The role of the prophet is often to help people make meaning of their suffering. So if you read closely, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, particularly who are two prophets speaking to people in exile, what they’re really doing is helping people make meaning of that suffering. [00:31:17] Kayleigh: They’re helping people tell their story. They’re, they’re lamenting, they’re crying with them. They’re, they’re asking the hard questions. Um, and they’re able to kind of see between the lines. So prophet, Pastors who have kind of that prophetic gifting are able to see below. They’re able to kind of slow down and hear the actual story beyond the behaviors, right? [00:31:35] Kayleigh: So the behaviors aren’t telling the whole story, but we need eyes to see that. And so the problem, I would say, is that a lot of well, meaning pastors simply aren’t taught how to do this. And so they’re not given the resources. They’re not given kind of the, um. this like Christian imagination to be able to look at a church and say, okay, what has happened here and what healings take place here? [00:31:59] Kayleigh: Um, the other problem is, you know, we need to be able to give space. So denominational leaders need to be able to be okay with a church that maybe isn’t going to grow for a few years. And I think that is whether we like it or not. And we can say all day long that we don’t judge a church’s health by its numbers. [00:32:19] Kayleigh: But at the end of the day, pastors feel this pressure to grow the church, right? To have an attendance that’s growing a budget that’s growing and. And so, and part of it is from a good place, right? We want to reach more people from Jesus, but part of it is just this like cultural pressure that defines success by numbers. [00:32:36] Kayleigh: And so can we be okay with a church that’s not going to grow for a little while? You know, can we be okay with a church that’s going to take some like intentional time to just heal? And so when you have an established church, um, which is a little bit different than a house church model, it can be. A really weird sacrifice, even for the people who are there, because often what you have is you have a segment of the church who is very eager to move forward and move on and and to grow and to move into its new future, and they can get frustrated with the rest of the church. [00:33:15] Kayleigh: That kind of seems to need more time. Um, but trauma healing is it’s not linear. And so, you know, you kind of have to constantly Judith Herman identifies like three components of trauma healing. And so it’s safety and naming and remembering and then reconnecting, but they’re not like you finish safety and then you move to this one and then you move to this one. [00:33:36] Kayleigh: Often you’re kind of going, you’re ebbing and flowing between them, right? Because you can achieve safety and then start to feel like, okay, now I can name it. And then something can trigger you and make you feel unsafe again. And so you’re now you’re back here. And so, um, um, Our churches need to realize that this healing process is going to take time, and collective trauma is complicated because you have individuals who are going to move through it. [00:33:57] Kayleigh: So you’re going to have people who are going to feel really safe, and they’re going to feel ready to name, and others who aren’t. And so you have to be able to mitigate that and navigate that. And our pastors just aren’t simply trained in this. And so what I see happening a lot is I’ll do these trainings and I’ll have somebody come up to me afterwards and go, Oh my goodness, I was an after pastor and I had no idea that was a thing. [00:34:18] Kayleigh: And they’re like, you just gave so much language to my experience. And you know, and now I understand why they seem to be attacking me. They weren’t really attacking me. They just don’t trust the office of the pastor. And I represent the office of the pastor. Okay. And so sometimes they take that personally again, it becomes like these theological issues. [00:34:38] Kayleigh: And so helping pastors understand the collective trauma and being able to really just take the time to ask those important questions and to increase not only their own margin for suffering, but to increase a congregations margin for suffering. You know, to go, it’s going to be, we can sit in this pain. [00:34:58] Kayleigh: It’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s going to be important, you know, learning how to lament, learning how to mourn. All of these things are things that often we’re just not trained well enough in, um, as pastors. And so therefore our congregations aren’t trained in them either. You know, they don’t have margin for suffering either. [00:35:14] Kayleigh: Um, and so we need to be able to equip our pastors to do that. Um, and then equip the congregations to be able to do that as well. [00:35:20] Julie: So good. And I’m so glad you’re doing that. I will say when I first started this work, um, I was not trauma informed. I didn’t know anything about trauma really. And I didn’t even, you know, I was just a reporter reporting on corruption and then it turned into abuse in the church. [00:35:38] Julie: And I started interfacing with a lot of abuse victims. who were traumatized. And I think back, um, and, and really, I’ve said this before, but survivors have been my greatest teachers by far, like just listening to them and learning from them. But really from day one, you know, it’s loving people, right? It really, it like, if you love and if you empathize, which You know, some people think it’s a sin, um, just cannot, um, but if you do that and, and that’s what, you know, even as I’m thinking about, um, within our own, our own house church, there were people who weren’t trained, but they did instinctively the right things because they loved. [00:36:28] Julie: You know, and it just reminds me, I mean, it really does come down to, they will know you are Christians by your love. You know, how do we know love? Like Christ laid down his life for us. He is our model of love and, and somehow, you know, like you said, the, in the church today we’ve, we’ve exalted the, um, what did you say? [00:36:49] Julie: The apostle evangelist? The apostle evangelist. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we’ve exalted that person, um, you know, And I think we’ve forgotten how to love. And too many of these pastors don’t know how to love. They just don’t know how to love. And it’s, it’s tragic. Because they’re supposed to be I mean, the old school models, they were shepherds, you know, like you said, like we need apostles, we need evangelists. [00:37:16] Julie: But usually the person who was leading the church per se, the apostles and evangelists would often end up in parachurch organizations. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. I think the church needs all of those things. Um, and, uh, But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve left that behind, sadly. And there’s nothing sexy about being a shepherd. [00:37:37] Kayleigh: Yeah, no, I, all, all of the Apostle, I mean that, well, the whole thing is needed, um, and it’s most beautiful when we just work together, and, and when they can respond to each other. So, I mean, me and you’re an example in your house, you’re a visiting example of this. You can’t, even if just listening, you have some clear Apostle evangelists in your group, right? [00:37:54] Kayleigh: I mean, Um, right? And so you have these people wired for that, and yet they’re able to, to learn and respond to some of the people in the group who have more of those prophet shepherd tendencies. And so I think that that’s really what, and that’s loving, right? So we should go back. It’s just loving one another and learning from one another. [00:38:17] Kayleigh: And knowing when to lean into certain giftings and to learn from others giftings. This is why it’s the body of Christ. And so when a component of the body of Christ is left out, we can’t be who God’s called us to be. And so when we neglect the role of the shepherd and neglect the role of the prophet or minimize them, or see them as secondary, then we’re not going to do called us to be. [00:38:44] Kayleigh: You know, we may need all of it to come together to do what God has called us to do. God is working in this church. He’s worked all through this church. He has established it and called it, and He’s going to use it. But we need to be learning how He has built it and how He framed it. For me to love one another and not elevate one gifting above another. [00:39:07] Julie: And it’s interesting too, you mentioned the office of the pastor. Um, I know as we were discussing some of this, we have one guy who’s very, I mean, actually our entire group, and I think this is probably why we’ve been able to navigate some of this. It’s it’s a really spiritually mature group. A lot of people. [00:39:26] Julie: who have been in leadership, um, which sometimes you get a lot of leaders together and it can be, you know, but this hasn’t been that way because I think people really do love the Lord. Um, and they love each other. Um, but one of the things that was brought up, um, is Is the pastor an office or is it a role and have we made it into an office and, and what we realized in the midst of that and I, you know, I, I’m like, well, that’s really interesting. [00:39:57] Julie: I would like to study that. And I find there, there’s a curiosity when you talk compassionate curiosity, I think there’s also a curiosity in, in people who have been through this kind of trauma. There’s a curiosity in, okay, what, what did we do? that we did because everybody said that’s how we’re supposed to do it. [00:40:18] Kayleigh: Yeah. [00:40:18] Julie: Yeah. Do I really have that conviction? Could I really argue it from scripture? Is this even right? And so I find even in our group, there is a, there is a, um, there’s a curiosity and maybe this is because we’re coming through and we’re in, you know, I think a later stage of healing is that now we’re like really curious about what should we be? [00:40:44] Julie: Yes. Yes. What should we be, like, we, we want to dig into what, what is a church, what should it really be, and what, why, how could we be different? Of course, always realizing that you can have the perfect structure and still have disaster. Um, it really does come down to the character of the people and, and that, but, but yeah, there’s a real, Curiosity of, of sort of, um, digging, digging into that. [00:41:10] Julie: And, and let me just, I can ask you, and, and maybe this will be a rabbit trail, maybe we’ll edit it out. I don’t know. Um, , but, but I am curious what do, what do you think of that idea that the, the pastorate may be a role that we’ve made into an office and maybe that could be part of the problem? [00:41:27] Kayleigh: I think that’s a lot of it. [00:41:28] Kayleigh: Um, because when we turn the, the pastorate into an office, we can lose the priesthood of all believers. So that I think is often what happens is that, um, you create this pastoral role where now all of the ministry falls on to the pastor. And so instead of the pastor’s role being to equip the saints for the ministry, which is what scripture says, the scripture describes a pastor as equipping the saints for the ministry. [00:41:56] Kayleigh: Now the pastor is doing the ministry, right? There’s, there’s just all of this pressure on the pastor. And that’s, that’s where I think we start to see this. The shift from the pastor being the one who is, you know, encouraging and equipping and edifying and, you know, calling up everybody to live into their role as the body of Christ where we’ve seen. [00:42:19] Kayleigh: You know, I have a soft spot for pastors. Again, I’m like, they’re all my relatives are them. I love pastors and I know some really beautiful ones who get into ministry because that’s exactly what they want to do. And so what has often happened though, is that the, the ways of our culture have begun to inform how the church operates. [00:42:40] Kayleigh: And so we saw this, you know, when, when the church started to employ business In kind of the church growth movement. So it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to grow things? Business people know how to grow things. Okay. Well, what are they doing? Right. And so now that the pastor is like the CEO, people choose their churches based on the pastor’s sermon, right? [00:43:00] Kayleigh: Well, I like how this pastor preaches. So I’m going to go to that church. Um, so some of it is. So I would say that not all of it is pastors who have like that egotistical thing within them at the beginning. Some of it is that we know that those patterns exist. But some of these men and women are genuinely just love the Lord’s people and then get into these roles where they’re all of a sudden like, wait, I, Why, why is it about me and others, this pressure to preach better sermons and the person down the road or, you know, run the programs and do all of these things instead of equipping the people to do the work of God. [00:43:38] Kayleigh: And so I think it’s, it’s about, and right, I think it’s happened internally in our churches, but I also think there’s this outward societal pressure that has shifted the pastor from this shepherding role to the CEO office. Um, And finding the, like, middle ground, right? So again, like, we can swing the pendulum one way and not have pastors. [00:44:05] Kayleigh: Or we can swing the pendulum the other way and have pastors at the center of everything. But is there a way of finding, kind of, this middle ground where people who are fairly calm and gifted and anointed by God to do rich shepherding can do it in a way that is Zen sitting that church that is equal famous saint that is calling the body of Christ to be what it is called be. [00:44:27] Kayleigh: And I guess I’m, I’m constantly over optimistic and so I’m convinced that there’s gotta be a way , that we can get to a place where pastors can live out of their giftings and live by their callings and live out of their long dreams in such a way. That leads to the flourishing health of the church and not to its destruction. [00:44:45] Julie: Yes. And, and I think if it’s working properly, that absolutely should be there. They should be a gift to the church. Um, and, and sadly we just, we haven’t seen enough of that, but that is, that is, I think the model. Um, let’s talk specifically, and we have talked, or we might not have named it, um, but some of the results of this collective trauma. [00:45:08] Julie: in a congregation. Um, let’s, let’s name some of the things. These are ways that this can, that this can play itself out. [00:45:17] Kayleigh: Sure. So when we’re talking about congregational collective trauma, one of the main results that we’ve talked about kind of in a roundabout way is this lack of trust that can happen within the congregation. [00:45:27] Kayleigh: And this can be twofold. We can talk about the lack of trust for the leadership, but it all also can be lack of trust. Just, In the congregation itself, um, this often happens, particularly if we’re looking at clergy misconduct that maybe wasn’t as widespread. So I think this is some of what you’ve kind of talked about with Willow Creek a little bit, and I’m, I wasn’t in that situation, but I’ve seen it other places where, you know, in our system, the denominational leadership removes a pastor. [00:45:56] Kayleigh: And so what can happen in a system like that is that denominational leadership becomes aware of abuse. They act on the abuse by removing the pastor. And what you have happening is kind of this, um, Betrayal trauma or this, you know, bias against believing. And so because the idea that their clergy person who they have loved and trusted, you know, shepherd them could possibly do something that atrocious. [00:46:24] Kayleigh: That idea is too devastating for them to internalize. So it feels safer to their bodies to deny it. And so what can happen is you can have a fraction of the church. that thinks it’s, you know, all made up and that there’s no truth to it. And they began to blame the denominational leadership as the bad guys or that bad reporter that, you know, the [00:46:45] Julie: gossip monger out there. [00:46:47] Julie: It’s so bad. [00:46:48] Kayleigh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you have this split. Now, sometimes it literally splits and people will leave. Um, but sometimes they don’t and they all stay. And so you have these fractions of people who believe different things about what happened. And so now there’s, there’s a lack of shared identity. [00:47:08] Kayleigh: So I would say one of the key components of collective trauma in a congregation is this mistrust, which is often connected to a lack of shared identity. And so they can’t really figure out who they are together. What does it mean for us to be a community to get there? Um, and so trauma begins to write their story. [00:47:27] Kayleigh: And so when we talk about the embodiment of trauma, one of the ways that that works in individuals, and this is like a mini neuroscience lesson that many of your listeners are probably aware of, because I think you have a very trauma informed audience. Audience, but, um, you know, that it, it makes us react out of those fight, flight, or freeze responses. [00:47:46] Kayleigh: And so that happens individually, right? So something triggers us and all of a sudden we’re at our cortisol is raised. We’re acting out of the, uh, you know, those flight flight places that happens communally too. So a community gets triggered by, you know, a pastor again, having what they think is just a creative idea, you know, but maybe it triggers that time that that pastor. [00:48:09] Kayleigh: Had a creative idea that was, you know, and ran with it without talking to anybody and just like wield the control and manipulated people. And now, all of a sudden, this pastor who thinks they just have this innocent, creative idea is now seen as manipulative. And what are they going to try to do behind our backs? [00:48:27] Kayleigh: And what are they going to try? And, and. What are they going to take from us? Right? And so trauma, trauma takes from people. And so now they’re living kind of out of this perpetual perceived fear, perceived threat, that something else is going to be lost. And so when you have a congregation that’s constantly operating out of, you know, this fight, flight, or freeze response. [00:48:52] Kayleigh: Collectively, I mean, how can we expect them to live out the mission that God has given them? Um, you know, they’re not, they’re not there. They’re not able to, um, they’re not able to relate to one another in a healthy way. And so we, we see a lack of kind of intimate relationships in these congregations, right? [00:49:09] Kayleigh: Because so the Deb Dana, who has helped people really understand the polyvagal theory, when we’re talking about, um, trauma talks about your, your, um, Nervous system, your autonomic nervous system is kind of being like a three rung ladder. And so in this three rung ladder, you have the top rung being your ventral bagel state, which is where you can engage with people in safe and healthy ways. [00:49:32] Kayleigh: And then you move down into kind of your sympathetic nervous system. And this is where you’re in that fight flight freeze and then dorsal bagels at the bottom. And in those two middle and bottom, you can’t build these deep relationships. And again, deep relationships are what make a church a church. And so if you have a congregation that’s stuck in these middle to bottom rungs of this ladder, they’re, they’re fight, flight, freeze, or they’re withdrawing from one another. [00:49:54] Kayleigh: You’re, you’re losing the intimacy, the vulnerability, the safety of these congregations to build those kinds of relationships. And so I would say that, that distrust, that lack of shared identity and that inability to build deeper kind of relationships are three kind of key components of what we’re seeing in congregations who are carrying this collective trauma. [00:50:16] Julie: And yet, if you work through that together, like I will say right now, I feel a great deal of affection for, for everyone. Uh, in our house tours because we went through that chaos together, but also it was, it was an opportunity to see love and people lay down their lives for each other. So to, to be able to see, I mean, you begin writing a new story instead of that old story that’s been so dominant, you know, that you have to tell, you have to work through. [00:50:50] Julie: Yeah, you do. And, and, and you have, you do. I love where you say, you know, people need to, to hear that from you. Yeah. I think that’s really, really important for people to have a safe place. But then at the same time, you can’t, you don’t want to live the rest of your life there. You don’t want that to define, define you. [00:51:09] Julie: Um, and that’s, that’s what’s beautiful though, is if you work through it together, now you, you’ve got a new story, right? You’ve got, you’ve got Dodd doing something beautiful. Um, among you and, and that’s what he does. [00:51:23] Kayleigh: That’s why we call our organization Restory. Um, it is a word used in trauma theory and in reconciliation studies to talk about what communities who have experienced a lot of violence have to do is they have to get to a place where they’re able to, it’s exactly what you’re talking about with your house churches doing is you guys have kind of come to a place where you’re able to ask the question, who do we want to be now? [00:51:45] Kayleigh: And this is this process of restorying. And so what trauma does is in many ways, for a while, it tries to write our stories. And for a while, it kind of has, because of the way that it’s embodied, we kind of, it has to, right? Like we have to process like, okay, I’m reacting to this. trigger because of this trauma that’s happened. [00:52:05] Kayleigh: So how do I work through that? You know, how do I name that? How do I begin to tell that story? And so we, and we have to tell the story, right? Because I mean, trauma theory has been the dialectic of traumas, but Judith Herman talks about is it’s very unspeakable because it’s horrific, but it has to be spoken to be healed. [00:52:22] Kayleigh: Right. And so with this trauma, it can be hard to speak initially. But it needs to be spoken to be healed. But once we’ve done that, once we begin to loosen the control that trauma has on us. Once we’re able to speak it out loud, and then we can get to a place individually and communally where we can start to ask ourselves, Who do we want to be? [00:52:45] Kayleigh: And who has God called us to be? And no, things are not going to be the way they were before the trauma happened. I think that’s the other thing that happens in churches is there’s a lot of misconception. That healing means restoring everything to the way it was before. And when that doesn’t happen, there’s this question of, well, well, did we, did we heal? [00:53:06] Kayleigh: And we have to remember that we’re never going back to the way it was before the trauma happened. But we can begin to imagine what it can look like now. Once we begin to integrate the suffering into our story, and we begin to ask those helpful questions, and we take away the trauma’s control, now we can ask, who do we want to be? [00:53:24] Kayleigh: And we can begin to write a new beautiful story that can be healing for many others. [00:53:29] Julie: A friend of mine who has been through unspeakable trauma, I love when she talks about her husband, because they went through this together, and she often says, he’s like an aged fine wine. You know, and I love that because to me, no, you’re not going back to who you were, but in many ways who you were was a little naive, little starry eyed, a little, you know, and, and once you’ve been through these sorts of things, it is kind of like an aged fine wine. [00:54:01] Julie: You have, you’re, you’re aged, but hopefully in a beautiful way. And, you know, I, I think you’re way more compassionate. Once you’ve gone through this, you’re way more able to see another person who’s traumatized and And to, you know, reach out to that person, to love that person, to care for that person. And so it’s a beautiful restoring. [00:54:26] Julie: And we could talk about this for a very long time. And we will continue this discussion at Restore, [00:54:33] Kayleigh: um, because [00:54:34] Julie: you’re going to be at the conference and that was part of our original discussions. So folks, if you wanna talk more to Kaleigh , come to Restore. I, I’m, I’m gonna fit you in somehow because , I’m gonna be there. [00:54:46] Julie: you’re gonna be there. But do you just have a wealth of, uh, I think research and insights that I think will really, really be powerful? And I’m waiting for you to write your book because it needs to be written. Um, but I’m working on it. , thank you for, for taking the time and for, um, just loving the body. [00:55:07] Julie: And in the way that you have, I appreciate it. [00:55:09] Kayleigh: Well, thank you. Because, you know, when I heard about your work and your tagline, you know, reporting the truth, but restoring the church, you know, I was just so drawn in because that’s what we need. The church is worth it. The church is beautiful and she is worth taking the time to restore. [00:55:24] Kayleigh: And I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing to make sure that that that happens. [00:55:28] Julie: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast and our investigative journalism, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report to support our ongoing work? [00:55:47] Julie: As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors. We mainly have you. The people who care about our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’d like to help us out, just go to Julie Roy’s spelled R O Y S dot com slash donate. That’s Julie Roy’s dot com slash donate. [00:56:07] Julie: Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy’s report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. [00:56:29] Julie: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

Lacey writes "Hey Wes! I started listening to your show after my encounter that happened in the fall of 2020 in Willow Creek, CA. Since then I have tried to make sense of what happened and your show has given me insight and validation, but has also left me with more questions than answers. Takes a lot for me to do this but here it goes.. During the fall of 2020 I was trimming for a medical marijuana farm and staying with friends in willow creek, ca. I currently live in my home state in the Midwest but lived in Humboldt County for 7 years during my twenties. So when the pandemic started, I lost my job as a massage therapist. Being that is was an awkward time to do my job anyway, I figured why not see my friends and make some money while in waiting to see what would become of my career. By the time my encounter happened it was October and I had been working out west since July. Autumn in that area is typically busy with travelers, so I thought it would be cool to meet a guy on a dating site while visiting to help pass the time. Right away I hit it off with a fellow farm worker who happened to be right down the road. We went out for dinner and decided to continue the night by laying under the stars at a local campground called camp Kimtu right outside of Willow Creek on the trinity river. The campsites were further down the road but we decided to pull of on the beach by the water. Since I had been living do on the road, my car was full of camping gear. We took my sleeping bag with blankets down a path to the water not far from my vehicle. For the record we did have a 12 pack of steelhead ale(my fav local beer) but each of us had only had two beers. One at the restaurant and one on the river bank. It wasn't long after laying there that it started to rain so we ended up getting into my car to wait out the rain. The rain lasted about an hour(which to my knowledge it was the first rain of the season) and during that time we stayed inside until it stopped. Eventually we made it back out but decided to just sleep there and continue hanging out. I have a rav4 so we put the back seats down and made a bed. While doing so I took out my camping tote which had some really valuable gear inside as well as his backpack and guitar (This is a key part of the story bc it just doesn't make sense that if it was a hoax then why didn't “they” steal our stuff?). At this point it around 11:45. The bed was made so we sat in the back of the car with the hatch door open(which was facing the river) to smoke a joint. I was wrapped in a blanket and he in his boxers snuggled up to me. A few mins into conversation we started hearing a low guttural growl coming from the rocky beach down towards the water. Take in mind it was super foggy out and there was no street lights around. So we never actually saw what was making the sound but oh did we hear them. The sound went on for about 30 secs or so. It almost sounded like a didgeridoo at first but you could tell it was a voice. Kind of like a growl/gargling sound. It radiated around us in a way I have never heard before. What was also really weird, we both immediately became emotional and struck with fear. It was like my body became immediately paralyzed. Tears started streaming down my cheeks as we grabbed each other and I said “that's not human” it was like my nervous system instantly knew something was off. He then yelled really loud “Hey, what are you doing down there!?” (This is when it gets absolutely terrifying and I mean seriously the most afraid I have ever been in my life. I still to this day have ptsd from this experience. It's gotten easier to tell this story but it continues to haunt me. I dream about it and think about it constantly.) The sound abruptly stopped when he did that but only for a second and then proceeded to SCREAM the most ungodly, otherworldly sound I never in a million years would imagine to hear. We instinctively shut the back door and laid down shaking. At this point it was pure terror and somewhat surreal. Almost as if time stood still but it all happened pretty fast. As we lay there trembling and not knowing what to do next, the sounds began to get louder and more intense. It started to sound like multiple high and low pitched voices that were howling, yelling and at some points it sounded like they were laughing. Almost like a gorilla/hyena hybrid. That sound will forever be burned into my mind. We both became hysterical. He also started to cry and kept asking me what do we do?? I told him to lay still and be quiet. I couldn't believe this was happening. Then, they surrounded my car. It literally sounded like they were all around us. It truly felt like they were taunting us but in the most horrible way and trust me it worked. The cackling and howling with talking btw, they seriously have a language. We could hear them bantering back and forth. It was like nothing I've ever heard, until someone played for me the Sierra sounds. It's absolutely unnerving how similar that recording is to what we experienced. Also at some point during this they began making really loud thud noises but not sure how. This went on for what seemed like forever but in reality it was only 15 mins or so until one of them was so close to my back passenger window that we both screamed uncontrollably and the guy told me to drive! I frantically found my keys in the mess of blankets and jumped in the driver seat. I just remember shaking so bad I could barely push my foot on the peddle. The lights turned on but we never saw a thing. All I could do was put my car in drive and get tf out of there. Looking back on it I really wish one of us would've had our phones out to record but it all happened so fast, that honestly was the last thing on mind. We ended up parked outside of my friends house and laid there in shock until the sun came up. We went over the whole thing numerous times. Did they want to hurt us? If so, why didn't they? Was it a prank? At times it felt like trickery but the sound was so out of this world that if it was they must've had some kind of equipment. Plus these beings had a presence, a very strong one at that. He even thought we should call the police and report it, we were that scared. Once morning with no sleep and completely hung over from the adrenaline we drove back to get our things. Truly thinking everything would be gone, to our surprise nothing had been touched. Not the beer, nor the cooler with some food, or our valuables. We walked around and looked for tracks but didn't see a thing. I still don't know what to think of it and didn't begin the Bigfoot rabbit hole until after that night. As cliche as it is, that area is highly known for encounters so we just assumed if it wasn't people or an animal then it must be real after all. Him and I don't really talk but the occasional text to remind each other that we survived some truly crazy stuff together. Maybe someday I'll get him to go on a podcast with me or something. I'm just glad to have had a witness bc it truly is unbelievable until it happens to you. And I'm grateful for my vehicle bc I'm not sure if I'd be here to tell the tale if we would've been in my tent. I don't really know if they would have hurt us, nor do I ever want to chance that again. Let's just say the woods will never be the same."

Darkness Radio presents On An Expedition Bigfoot with Researcher/Presenter Bryce Johnson! Actor, Producer, and Podcaster Bryce Johnson is always looking for his next adventure, whether acting in film and television, voicing characters, podcasting or hunting the worlds most elusive creatures, Bryce Johnson is forging new paths in the entertainment industry. Most known for his roles in Willow Creek, Death Valley & Pretty Little Liars as well as voicing the title role in Marvel's full length animated film, Dr. Strange. Bryce is also the co-creator of the hit podcast Bigfoot Collectors Club, a weekly podcast in which amazing guests discuss their personal paranormal histories, followed by a story of High Strangeness. Bryce's most ambitious project to date has him starring and producing in Discovery channel's hit NEW show Expedition Bigfoot, in which he put together a team of scientists, researchers and experts in the quest for definitive proof of Bigfoot. His most recent credits include Christopher Nolan's Best Picture Oppenheimer, as well as starring in Damien Leone's highly anticipated Terrifier 3 Franchise, set to hit theaters on October 11th.  Bryce joins Darkness Radio today to talk about the new season of Expedition Bigfoot, his transition from "tech support" to in the field with the team, and why Ronny departed the team this season! Check out all things Expedition Bigfoot here:  https://www.travelchannel.com/profiles/talent/expedition-bigfoot Expedition Bigfoot airs on Discovery on Wednesday night  at 10 PM ET/ 9 PM CT! Get all the archives of Expedition Bigfoot on Max! click here to get MAX! https://www.max.com/ Check out Bryce on Social Media:  https://x.com/BryceOJohnson?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor https://www.instagram.com/mrbrycejohnson/?hl=en https://www.facebook.com/p/Bryce-Johnson-100044167672713/ #paranormal  #supernatural  #metaphysical  #paranormalpodcasts  #darknessradio  #timdennis #brycejohnson #expeditionbigfoot #expeditionbigfootseasonfive #mireyamayor #russellacord  #discovery #max #discoveryplus  #Cryptids #Cryptozoology #bigfoot  #sasquatch #Yeti #bigfootstructures  #alaskanorcaltrail #aliens #ufo #uap #extraterrestrials #orangeorbs #alienspaceships #alienhumanhybrid #alienimplant #alienabduction #cropcircles