Podcasts about Judson University

Welcome to part 2 of Love & Life LIVE! Elliott and I recently spoke to his Personality Class at Judson University. In part 2 of our conversation, we take a deep dive into Dr. Gary Chapman's 5 Love Languages. We explore the importance of knowing how you and your partner like to give and receive love.Elliott adds his 2 cents with 2 additional love languages he's observed during his Elliott's extensive work with couples

Welcome to a Love & Life Live! Elliott and I recently spoke to his Personality Class at Judson University and we wanted to share this evening with the Love & Life community. In the spirit of Valentine's Day, we focused on the personality of love. Specifically, we delved into the following: What is true love? How do we know when we're in it? How can we find the “Total Package?” Why are some relationships so incredibly hard? What does psych research teach us about the definition of love? How does understanding our own personality help us better pick our partner? We bring Elliott's extensive work with couples and my MANY years on the dating scene to this upbeat and interactive discussion. Join us for Part 1 today and Part 2 tomorrow! Sources: Sternberg's Triangle Theory of Love https://www.verywellmind.com/types-of-love-we-experience-2303200 Lee's Color Theory of Love https://weddingbandmart.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/john-lees-theory-of-colors-of-love/ Sponsor: The Wellness Company Website: ⁠https://www.twc.health/lovelife⁠ Code: LOVELIFE for 15% off your order! Dr. Karin & Pastor Elliott Anderson Website: http://loveandlifemedia.com/ Empowered Dating Playbook: smarturl.it/EmpoweredDatingBook Instagram: @dr.karin | @pastorelliottanderson

Send us a textWith the start of a new year, here is an encore presentation of an interview we did with Dr. Jack Groppel back in 2023 on Leadership.Dr Jack Groppel, co-founder of the Johnson & Johnson Human Performance Institute and current professor at Judson University, Elgin, IL joins Tim and Nathan on today's episode.  His experience in working with world class athletes and sports teams to coaching top business leaders, provides plenty of real world thought on the topic of  leadership.Our fascinating conversation is packed with insights that can help you become a more effective, impactful leader. From the discussion on Energy Management vs Time Management  to leading as a "Corporate Athlete" and then considering the idea include  Agape Love as part of our leadership, Jack brings challenge after challenge to our quest for effective leadership.Dr Jack Groppel can be contacted on Linked-in here.Support the showThe Hosts of The Practice of NonProfit Leadership:Tim Barnes serves as the Executive Vice President of International Association for Refugees (IAFR) Nathan Ruby serves as the Executive Director of Friends of the Children of Haiti (FOTCOH) They can be reached at info@practicenpleader.comAll opinions and views expressed by the hosts are their own and do not necessarily represent those of their respective organizations.

 Jonathan Sebastian on  Loyal to a Man: The Civil War in our Backyards  For More Info: WWW.ChicagoCWRT.ORG  In the minds of many, including those who study history, there exists a divide. That is, while history happens everywhere, the real history happens somewhere else. The Civil War is thought of as having been fought in the South and, to an extent this is true. Most of the battles were fought in that region, however all parts of the country were directly impacted by this war. Illinois and even more specifically, the Chicago metropolitan area was no different. Just two hundred years ago, this area would have been unrecognizable to those familiar with all the Chicagoland area has to offer today. What was once an area of prairie with a handful of small towns was transformed dramatically during the 1860s. The people of the Prairie State played a significant role in the war and were themselves directly impacted by that war. So, how did Illinoisans, and more specifically those of Chicago and the DuPage County area, respond to such momentous issues as emancipation and the draft (among other issues) in the context of a national civil war? This presentation will explore this rich local history (some of it is still here in a tangible way!) and its connection to a most significant moment in the development of the United States. A former president of the Chicago CWRT, Jonathan Sebastian earned his B.A. in history from Judson College (now University) and his M.A. in Public History from Loyola University Chicago. He has been an adjunct professor of history at Judson University teaching World History 1500 to the Present and U.S. history. More recently, he was a social studies teacher at Woodlands Academy of the Sacred Heart. He was a tour guide at Jubilee College State Historic site outside of Peoria, Illinois, a project-based researcher at the Pritzker Military Library, and was the curator of the Fischer Farm historic site in Bensenville, Illinois. Currently, he is an experience facilitator at the Arlington Heights Historical Museum and the education and programs assistant at the Elmhurst History Museum. He is also the author of Bensenville, a volume of the Arcadia Press Series, Images of America. 

How does a young athlete navigate the ups and downs of club sports and still come out on top?  Welcome to another episode of Oak Performance, your ultimate resource for athletic performance and coaching, brought to you by your host, Adam Lane! In this episode, we dive into the journey of Alana Morgan, an incoming sophomore at Judson University, as she shares her experiences in volleyball. Alana talks about her transition from moving between clubs to finding her perfect fit with VC United, emphasizing the importance of a well-organized and supportive environment. She also sheds light on the financial benefits of dual credit and AP classes, which have significantly eased her college expenses. She doesn't shy away from discussing her challenges with poorly managed clubs and how overcoming these obstacles has shaped her outlook. She speaks on the influential role of motivation—whether driven by supportive parents or the need to prove doubters wrong—and highlights the value of teamwork in high school and club sports. Her advice to younger athletes? Use criticism as fuel, train hard, and while taking the sport seriously, remember to keep it enjoyable. 00:00 Intro 4:12 Club Hopping and Finding the Right Fit 26:20 Challenges and Rewards of Club Sports 26:32 The Importance of Team Dynamics and Support 38:50 Motivation and Overcoming Obstacles 43:06 The Role of Parents and Friends in Athletic Success 43:24 The Impact of High School and Club Sports 1:08:09 The Role of Coaches and Mentors 1:10:54 The Future of Volleyball and College Recruiting This episode is a must-listen for those looking to gain insights into the world of youth sports and academic planning. Connect With Alana Morgan; @wearevcunited and  @alana.morgan24

My father-in-law passed away a month ago. We knew his death was imminent, so we weren't caught off guard, but I was definitely surprised by the depth of my grief. I'd only known Max for 14 years and because I was in my 40s when I joined the Abrell family, I hadn't had the years of connection with him. Yet my grief was significant and multifaceted. My mom, Elliott, and our brother, Warren, attended the funeral. At the end of the service, Dan opened up the floor for anyone who might want to say something to honor Max. I tried to get my courage up but I was afraid I'd cry too hard and make everyone feel uncomfortable.  I left the service full of regret for not having shared how much Max meant to me, and how blessed I felt to have been his daughter-in-law. Even though I didn't have the chance to know Max longer, I nevertheless feel his influence every day in my marriage. He raised the love of my life and for that, I'm so incredibly grateful.  I wish I'd shared these thoughts with those who attended the funeral.  At the meal after the service, Elliott told me how learning more about Max stirred within him ideas about what it means to be a man of honor, integrity, and character. Since he works with young men and teaches them at Judson University, he sees how much GenZers could learn from the men of Max's generation! To make up for my lack of courage at the funeral, we decided to kick off our new series, “What is a Man?” with a tribute to one of the best there's ever been—Max L. Abrell. Sponsors: Authentixx  Website: http://www.authentixx.com Code: LOVELIFE for 10% off your order! The Wellness Company Website: ⁠https://www.twc.health/lovelife⁠ Code: LOVELIFE for 15% off your order! Dr. Karin & Pastor Elliott Anderson Website: http://loveandlifemedia.com/ Empowered Dating Playbook: smarturl.it/EmpoweredDatingBook Instagram: @dr.karin | @pastorelliottanderson

Join us for a conversation with Chingona, Lyna Matesi, where she shares her journey about being born to a young teen, learning the power of money through being a carny, how she climbed the corporate later, and how she has become a global leader! Lyna earned a Ph.D. in Leadership Studies from Gonzaga University, an M.A. in Whole Systems Design focused on change leadership and organizational development from Antioch University, and a B.A. in Leadership and Management from Judson University. Her mission is to encourage, drive, and release herself and others to bridge the gaps between where we are and where we want to be. https://www.nextyouunleashed.com/ www.uwsp.edu/womenlead http://linkedin.com/in/lynamatesi www.uwsp.edu/mba https://www.instagram.com/lynaleads?igsh=MWQ0NWZ3dmp6cjhzcg== https://www.howwomenlead.com/

In this episode of ‘The Brand Called You' with the guidance of the erudite insights of Professor Varghese Mathai, we embark on a journey into the profound literary world of Mahakavi K.V. Simon. Join us as we unravel the brilliance and legacy of this literary luminary, exploring his timeless contributions and enduring influence on literature and society. [00:42] - About Prof. Varghese Mathai Varghese Mathai is a Professor of English at Judson University in the USA. He holds the Benjamin P. Brown Chair of Communications at Judson University and is a Fulbright scholar. He is the author of the book "Mahakavi K.V. Simon: The Milton of the East." Professor Varghese specialises in teaching British poetry and spirituality. He has published several papers and books, including "The Malabar Mandate: Life of Volbrecht Nagle" and "The Village Maestro and 100 Other Stories." --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tbcy/support

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tbf5FsOm0oResearch shows more than 95% of women who report being raped are telling the truth. But in some churches, these women are not believed and shamed. According to author Ryan George, it's all part of a propaganda machine meant to consolidate and maintain power. On this edition of The Roys Report, host Julie Roys continues her eye-opening dialogue with Ryan George, the son of an Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) pastor. In part one, Ryan described the physical abuse he suffered from his dad. Now Ryan exposes the harmful rhetoric in IFB churches from his insider perspective and comments on shocking examples of IFB misogyny. This podcast includes clips from IFB pastors who shamed women and rape victims in their sermons. Also included in this podcast is Ryan's description of how IFB pastors promote violence, especially when it's directed towards those seen as political foes. This is a no-holds-barred podcast, exposing the ugly truth about the IFB church movement, which Ryan asserts is a cult. It also includes a clip from John MacArthur in which the famous preacher sounds an awful lot like Ryan's IFB pastor dad. However, this podcast also has a wonderfully redemptive story, as Ryan tells how he escaped the abuse and deception in his father's IFB church and overcame fear. Guests Ryan George Ryan George is the author of Scared to Life, Word on the Street, and his latest book, Hurt and Healed by the Church. He's the blogger behind Explorience.org, where he tells stories at the intersection of physical adventures and spiritual discoveries on all seven continents. He co-founded and co-leads Dude Group, a parachurch outdoor Bible study and prayer group in the Blue Ridge Mountains where he lives with his wife, Crystal, and daughter, Deonnie. Show Transcript SPEAKERS PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD, JOHN MACARTHUR, RYAN GEORGE, Julie Roys, JACK HYLES Julie Roys  00:00 The following podcast contains clips from some pastors in the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church, or IFB, who shamed women and rape victims in their sermons. We chose these clips to illustrate the systemic problems in IFB churches. But we realize these clips are hard to hear, so please take care as you listen.  For more background on these and other stories please visit JulieRoys.com. Research shows that more than 95-percent of women who report being raped are telling the truth. But in some churches, especially IFB churches, these women are disbelieved and shamed. According to Ryan George, it's all part of the IFB propaganda machine meant to consolidate and maintain power. Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And in part two of an eye-opening podcast with Ryan George—the son of an IFB pastor—Ryan exposes the misogynist propaganda in IFB churches. And in this podcast, you'll hear some shocking examples of this misogyny. But as Ryan explains, there's also promotion of violence within IFB churches, especially when it's directed towards those seen as political foes. This is no-holds-barred, stunning podcast, exposing the ugly truth about the IFB Church—a group Ryan confidently asserts is a cult. You'll also hear a clip from John MacArthur, where the famous preacher sounds an awful lot like an IFB pastor. But this podcast also has a wonderfully redemptive story, as Ryan tells how he escaped the IFB and overcame fear. I love Ryan's story—and I think you will too. We'll get to that in a minute. But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast—Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington . . . Well again, here's part 2 of my podcast with Ryan George, author of Hurt and Healed in the Church. . . So there’s a whole section of your book that deals with propaganda. And you know, as a journalist, as somebody who’s in media, I mean, that’s something that always sort of piques my curiosity when I see something like that, but it’s really this idea of how the IFB was able to sell certain ideas to you. And extra biblical ideas that really weren’t necessarily in Scripture. And one of them that was just so heartbreaking to me because I work with female victims all the time of sexual abuse, and was that this idea, you actually heard this in college? Just stunning to me, that a woman if she’s raped, she would only get pregnant if she’s somehow enjoying it. And so it was kind of her fault if she gets pregnant. I mean, just despicable. absolutely shocking that anyone would say that. Yeah, just absolutely despicable. And, you know, I’m very pro-life in my convictions, but the thought that somebody would try to treat a rape victim who got pregnant that way is just heartbreaking, heartbreaking. But we know, these really misogynist ideas are woven into so many of these fundamentalist churches. And you mentioned in your book, that Jack Hyles, who if you don’t know Jack Hyles was really a main figure within the IFB movement. He had this church in Hammond, Indiana, First Baptist of Hammond, I think, huge mega church. I think at one point, they said they had like 40,000 people coming. I know he would bus people. RYAN GEORGE  01:42 He had 86 buses at the peak of their ministry, running a bus route. I mean, that’s a big metro area city bus ministry. Julie Roys  01:49 Yeah, Absolutely, absolutely huge. Anyway, you had this clip, and it was so awful, I like had to look it up in your footnotes and be like, is this online? And so the journalist in me, like has to find it, right. So actually I was able to do it, I was able to find this clip. And just so people realize, I also looked up, like what was the context? Because he says, who slew all of these? when he’s speaking and really what he’s talking about, I looked up that phrase, it’s actually from II Kings 10, and it refers to Jehu, who is basically meeting out God’s judgment to the wicked king Ahab, and also Jezabell two of the most wicked kings Israel ever had. And there are actually, you know, these men of the city, who slew who slay the 70 sons of Ahab. And it’s a pretty graphic description in the Old Testament where they actually bring the heads of all of these sons, and they put them at the gate. And it’s like the judgment of God being meted out in just, you know, a horrific way. But then again, what Jezebel and Ahab did during their reign was pretty horrific as well. But Jehu comes and he looks, you know, in front of the people, he’s looking at this this pile, and he says, who slew all of these? And so in this clip, Hyles is actually likening these wicked men who were beheaded, to the people he’s describing, and it’s absolutely breathtaking, because these people are women, who, God forbid, didn’t dress in the way that he thinks is appropriate. So take a listen. JACK HYLES  03:47 Who slew all of the women in shorts? Who slew all of these poor kids that are girls pregnant before they married? caused the boys to get so stirred up passionately that they rape a girl. Brother, you listen to me. For every single man that goes to prison for rape, you ought to be right beside him, a half-naked girl in the next cell. Who slew all these people on beaches? Who slew all these churches to have mixed swimming parties? Julie Roys  04:31 Unbelievable. RYAN GEORGE  04:32 And if you notice in the background of any video, or background of that video, it’s all women except for one guy and they’re smiling. Julie Roys  04:41 Some are some are not. I mean, some are smiling. Some are not. And I just know you know from reading your book, and from the research that I’ve done, I mean, there’s a lot of sexual abuse going on behind the scenes. I just have to wonder how many of these women are standing there hearing this, and they’ve been sexually abused, and now they’re hearing, it’s your fault that this happened to you. Which, interestingly, Jack Hyles’ son, David, he’s been accused by several women of raping them. In fact, I did a podcast about four years ago with a woman who claimed she was raped by Jack Hyles son David Hyles. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes. That’s I mean, if you want to explore this a little bit more that was a really powerful podcast. Amazing woman what she’s been through., RYAN GEORGE  05:36 Oh, yes. Julie Roys  05:38 But also, there’s the son-in-law of Jack Hyles, who, you know, he’s been convicted of taking what a 16-year-old across state lines and raping her. Interestingly, when he was caught in his crime, he did eventually admit, I guess that  he had raped her. But then he blamed it on the teen’s aggressiveness, on her aggressiveness. I mean, this is so just baked into the whip and woof of this culture, that it’s the woman’s fault. And you might think, well, you know, Jack Hyles, died in 2001. So this is like the IFB of many decades ago. And, unfortunately, it’s not. In fact, I found a clip, and this was just like, last month on the internet, and it was a recording that it had been from, I think, August of last year, last September, but it finally made its round. Yeah. On the internet. And it was of a pastor in North Carolina, Pastor Bobby Leonard, at this Bible Baptist Tabernacle in Monroe, North Carolina. And this, I mean, every bit as awful as what you just heard from Jack Hyles. Let me play this because, again, this happened within the past year. PASTOR BOBBY LEONARD  07:01 I used to say this. I haven’t said this a long time. You ready? I said, if you dress like that, and you get raped, and I’m on the jury, he’s will go free. You don’t like it, do you? I’m right though. I’m right. Because a man’s a man. Julie Roys  07:22 Hhmm. A man’s a man. RYAN GEORGE  07:25 We define manhood very differently. Julie Roys  07:27 Yeah, right. I mean, that was unbelievable. And I pointed out and I think I put a Tweet out there saying or a post on X, I guess I have to say, that, yeah, he’s a man. He’s not an animal. And one of the features of a man is he’s able to exercise self-control. So if a woman’s in shorts, no, that doesn’t give you a license to rape her. And that video went viral. And there were protests there. And I don’t know if they’re still ongoing. I know, several weeks after this video went viral,  those protests were still going. But you know, I looked before we recorded this podcast, and this Bobby Leonard is still pastor at this IFB church. RYAN GEORGE  08:09 Same church. Julie Roys  08:10 Yep. The thing that kills me about this is that this man is a pastor, and he’s espousing something again. So the antithesis of what Jesus would. I mean, his heart broke for victims. His heart was absolutely. So I mean, the only people he was hard on was religious hypocrites. That’s the only people he was hard on,  but people caught in sin, people victimized, those are the people Jesus’ heart broke for. RYAN GEORGE  08:39 There’s a chance that when that woman who was pulled out from underneath her adultery partner, when they brought him to Jesus, brought her to Jesus to stone her, there’s a really good chance that she was naked standing there next to Jesus. Julie Roys  08:49 Oh, I thought you were gonna say that she was a victim. But I’d never thought of that. RYAN GEORGE  08:53 I don’t know. She definitely she could have been a victim. Right? But even if it was consensual, they didn’t draw her adultery partner out. Right? They didn’t try to stone him. Julie Roys  09:02 No, no, not a man. No. RYAN GEORGE  09:04 No, right, right. They pulled her out as if she was the problem which is an IFB thing. And then so if that’s the case, they said, we put her in the act. So, there’s very likely that a pastor like this, a group of Pharisees, pulled this woman out into public, set her next to Jesus and Jesus didn’t look at her, he wrote in the dirt. And then when all the accusers went away, say, Hey, where are your accusers? Neither do I condemn you. Now go and sin no more. That’s like you’re saying antithetical to what is the messaging in that video, and many of the churches that I grew up in. Julie Roys  09:40 There’s so many components that you discuss, and we don’t have time to go through them all. I wish we could. But one of them I was like, we have to talk about this because Christian nationalism has become so big. And especially right now, in an election year, we’re hearing In a lot of it. I didn’t realize how IFB  churches supported Christian nationalism and tried to kind of do it biblically like having a biblical basis. Would you describe that? RYAN GEORGE  10:14 Well, it’s baked into the idea that if we can’t winsomely attract people to Jesus, right? Their churches don’t even try to winsomely attract people. I tell a story in the book about my parents church had a raffle that you could win a shotgun if you brought people to church. Yeah. Because like, that’s the only way, they knew that the message that they had to sell wasn’t going to be popular, right? And so what they look at is well, then just like as they do in the churches, can we go by force? Right. And so, when you hear fundamentalists talk about politics, they’re talking about overtaking and taking control. Like you hear these kinds of authoritarian terms, to say, we are trying to take our culture by storm, we’re going to try to take it back. That’s not exclusive to IFB. But you wouldn’t think that this very seclusionary cult would try to be mainstream in that way. But I mean, we had polling places on our campus. The college I went to is the home district for Matt Gates, who is also accused of multiple sexual crimes against minors. And they would brag that, you know, they would get students to change their voting district to college so that we could vote in Florida elections, and our college bragged that we put Bush in the White House. Because if you count how many votes were cast by our students in that district, that was enough to put Bush over the top, I voted for Bush, this isn’t a political thing. But the idea is that they were trying to take it by any ways necessary, which definitely falls into this whole Trumpism thing now because they’re like, that’s our Savior. He’s gonna force it. He’s talking about retribution. He’s talking about making people pay, making people cry. You know. So it makes sense if you have an authoritarian church and authoritarian pastor that you’d be drawn to political authoritarians. Julie Roys  12:05 And wasn’t there something too about like when the passage about the separation of the sheep from the goats and that certain nations, I’ve never heard this before, that God will separate certain nations, like separating the sheep from the goats, almost like if you’re not in the Christian nation, you’re not going to make it in? RYAN GEORGE  12:26 Yeah, it’s a weird double jeopardy situation. And they’re like, Hey, we have to win America back to God because of this passage. And part of it is because if you only believe that the King James version is the only version you can read, and if you only believe that there are pastors out there, I have a few pastors that say that the English version of the Bible is more inspired than the original. Like, I mean, it’s all over you can find on the internet. If you follow, there’s an Instagram account, I highly recommend called At Bad Sermons. Bad Sermons has a whole bunch of this stuff. Julie Roys  12:55 I think that’s where that clip, actually yeah, of Pastor Monroe first came out, yeah, RYAN GEORGE  13:01 Oh, my gosh. And so what happens is they go, well, then that means if A plus B equals C, then we have to win America to Christ, so that, and they don’t mean that they have to save America. They’re not trying to save Americans. They’re trying to save their version, which is, again, a messed-up version of America for this thing. But that doesn’t make sense. So as I’m writing that chapter in my book, I’m in Slovenia, which I was in northern Slovenia, I was about 5-10 miles from the Italy border. And if you’ve ever looked at that part of the map, Slovenia has been part of like, 12, where I was sitting in that library has been part of like, 12 different countries in the last 400 years. Like, so at what point does Jesus pick your country? Is it 1787? Is it 2004? Is it 1999? Was it when it was in the Soviet bloc? Is it now that it’s not? It’s like, you know, was it when it was part of this country or that? Like, there’s so little intellectual rigor applied to anything. And when you do try to apply any type of academic anything, you’re saying, Oh, you’re a liberal, you don’t have faith, you know, all this stuff. Like you have to take the man of God’s word for this. And so you have IFB pastors after Joe Biden was elected, getting up and saying, Hey, I don’t know if you know if this is right, but I’m not going to get in the way of God if his will is to assassinate Joe Biden, from the pulpit. Wow. And you go, wait, what? Like, where did Jesus ever call us to assassinate our enemy? When Peter cut the guards year off, Jesus healed the guard and then said to Peter, like, what are you doing, man? Like, this isn’t how we do this. Julie Roys  14:37 Ah, that is so I am speechless. That is so so awful. Wow. Well, there’s something else that stuck out to me, probably because this is in the news right now. And you’ve got a chapter called, Misrepresenting Orthodoxy, and you talk about these IFB preachers who will condemn certain groups or certain groups of people in sort of this selective self-righteousness. And you talk about your father, who again, this is a man who was a pedophile. I mean, he molested girls who are not even of age. And yet, he said he would condemn Martin Luther King Jr., because he supposedly was a philanderer and, you know, had relations with women outside of marriage. At least, you know, in that case, you know, I don’t know, but I’m guessing they were consensual. Which was not the case with your father. But you write, I thought  this was a great paragraph. You write, While that irony plays out. Let me just read this here. While that irony plays out on a micro level of my family, I can’t escape the more macro irony of my dad’s disregard for Dr. King. In the unsaved churches of my youth, beliefs were an idol and hypocrisy was defended as a way to protect the gospel. Dogmatism took precedence over following the example of Jesus. Doctrine was more important than authenticity, curiosity, or compassion. And you’re probably aware, right now, there’s a big brouhaha over some things that John MacArthur has said, about Martin Luther King, Jr. In fact, I’m just gonna play that. So if people haven’t heard that, they can hear what he said. I’ll just play it. JOHN MACARTHUR  16:41 The T for G (Together for the Gospel) guys wanted to honor him with a panel, and we spent an hour, an hour and 15 minutes. And it was just beautiful tributes to RC from all of us, who knew him so very, very well. And the strange irony was a year later, they did the same thing for Martin Luther King, who was not a Christian at all, whose life was immoral. I’m not saying he didn’t do some social good. And I’ve always been glad that he was a pacifist, or he could have started a real revolution. But you don’t honor a non-believer who misrepresented everything about Christ and the gospel, in an organization alongside honoring somebody like RC Sproul. Julie Roys  17:36 So how does that hit you? RYAN GEORGE  17:39 So I see it again as a hypocrite, you know. John MacArthur has covered for multiple child molesters in his church. And I go, here’s the irony is you’re going to prop up people in your own church who are doing way worse than what Dr. Martin Luther King is and say that they are examples of the faith. Like this is why we keep them in our church, right? And then say somebody who had some affairs, which we’re not condoning affairs, that it wipes out everything they did, including  whether or not they’re going to heaven. That’s the mental gymnastics that the  IFB church has to do to feel self-righteous. Julie Roys  18:16 And missing, that one of the greatest sins that God calls out is pride. I mean when I hear things like that, I’m like, wow! I mean, I could talk about Dr. Martin Luther King’s doctrine, and there may be some really bad things in there. And I’m not saying that you can’t talk about that. But to say that you, a mere human, who doesn’t know the hearts of man, can say where the eternal destiny of someone else is. That crosses a line to me. RYAN GEORGE  18:46 It’s hubris. Julie Roys  18:48 Absolutely. RYAN GEORGE  18:49 And the irony is Dr. Martin Luther King was a Baptist pastor in the south, which means it was probably conservative to some degree, as far as theologically conservative church. They were probably closer than MacArthur would like to admit. Julie Roys  19:02 Yeah. Well, the last section of your book is beautiful. And it talks about. RYAN GEORGE  19:08 Oh, thank you. Julie Roys  19:08 Yeah, it talks about the greener pastures that are available. You know, there to get beyond the abuse, and the dogmatism, you know, that these things don’t have to define you and define the rest of your life. I think that’s hugely important. But at the same time, moving forward and choosing, you know, the better path, to choose growth over comfort, can be, it’s a risky thing to do. But it’s the path you chose, and maybe the path less traveled. But why would you like to the person who right now is just kind of sitting there going, You know, dare I do that? What would you say? RYAN GEORGE  19:54 I’d tell him, it’s worth it. So I’m a little predisposed to this. So, I’m an adrenaline junkie, I jump off mountains and planes and buildings. I’ve surfed in the Arctic. I do all kinds of crazy things. Julie Roys  20:06 You surfed in the Arctic? RYAN GEORGE  20:08 Yes, ma’am. I’ve camped in both the Arctic Circle and Antarctica. I do a thing called wing-walking, where you go out on the wings of a bi-plane while it’s flying, and it does aerobatic maneuvers while you’re out there. Julie Roys  20:16 No, no, no, no, no, no. RYAN GEORGE  20:18 But here’s what I’ve learned in that. And this is how God designed our bodies with dopamine and epinephrine and other reward chemicals, is that when we do this scary thing, we are chemically rewarded, right? And the times when I felt most alive in my life, outside of a faith community in a relationship, but like physically when I felt most alive, was after I conquered a fear. I was so scared to go wing walking the first time. I finally found a life insurance company to give me life insurance cuz you can imagine it’s hard to insure some of the stuff that I do for fun. And I got back down on the ground after my first, you take lessons, and you get like certified for different things you do out on the wings. And I got back down on the ground and my classmates had waited, I was the last student through the school that day. And one of my classmates yelled out, how was it? And I’m taking off, you know, your gear whatever, I was like, I’ve never felt more alive, right. And so what I’d like to tell people is, it’s that way for me and my faith. When I’ve had a conversation around a fire with somebody, or when I saw someone meet Jesus for the first time or put their marriage back together. Or I have a friend who has six foster and adopted children?, and to watch the reclamation project of what he and his wife are doing right? And different things in my life. I’ve seen Jesus do incredible things. And I have goosebumps right now all over my body, thinking about what I’ve seen is like, that is what life in all caps is. And I’ve experienced it. So my last book was called Scared to Life. And it was about I felt God the most when I’m scared. And so what I’m able to do because it’s become normal for me, I’m scared of heights. People are amazed. I’ve jumped off the 63rd story of a building before, but I’m scared of heights. But what I’ve learned is, is that when I lean into that fear, the reward is at least equal to whatever I was afraid of. And I found that to be true in my faith. You can’t convince them. It’s like trying to convince a seven-year-old that someday they’re going to like kissing girls. Trust me dude, I’m telling you, it’s the same thing. People are like, You’re so crazy, I would never go out on the wings of an airplane. It’s like, but have you ever been upside down at 140 miles an hour looking at the California desert? I can’t explain it right? It’s the same thing. There are things in my faith. I’ve had these encounters with Jesus that’s sweeter than anything I’ve ever had with my parents, anything I’ve ever had in churches growing up, that cannot be explained outside of Jesus. And I want that for you. I won’t ever force someone to jump out of a plane with me or do some of the stuff that I do. But I will invite over and over and over again because I know what’s waiting for them on the other side. And then you go, Okay, you just did something that 99% of humans in America would say you are legitimately crazy to try, and you feel more alive. What is something back home that you’re scared to do? A conversation you’re scared to have, a thing you’re scared to relinquish to Jesus, an addiction you’re scared to tell somebody about whatever it is. That Invitational model has proven true in my life over and over again. Julie Roys  23:16 I mean, it makes me think of when I was about to blow the whistle on the Moody Bible Institute. And I had this piece written, and I won’t go into the whole story of how that went down. But I was terrified because I knew that would burn my bridge forever. Not just with Moody. But you get blacklisted. And that would be the end of my career. And I was okay with that. But it was still scary. And yet, I mean, yes. Did I feel alive when I did that? And then on the heels of that, that’s why I’m doing what I’m doing today. God birthed this out of that, and had I not followed through  on that conviction God gave me, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be here, you know. And so, to me, I feel like I’m living the adventure. You know. I think life in Christ should be living the adventure. And it will always, always, I think we’ve forgotten about this. RYAN GEORGE  24:14 Jesus hinted at it. So they didn’t have the terms that we have now in the New Testament to describe biology and whatever else. But over and over and over from Jesus and other people Old Testament New Testament. The Bible says the just shall live by faith. But what a lot of people don’t reverse engineer that to go it’s you can’t have faith unless you have doubt, fear, both, right? I’m only scared on the wing of an airplane if I don’t think my harness is going to work or there’s going to be a malfunction in the plane. When you’ve done it 100 times, the 100th time I rode a motorcycle, it wasn’t as scary as the first time right? The first time you ride a roller coaster you’re holding on white knuckles. By the fifth time you’re posing for the picture. You’re physically doing the same thing. But you’ve lost that fear. And so, for us to live by faith on a regular basis, there has to be something that brings doubt or fear into our life. It sounds masochistic and I don’t mean it that way. But if Jesus isn’t given me an assignment on a regular basis that makes my palms sweaty, then I have to ask myself, do I have faith right now? Am I living the just life? Julie Roys  25:11 Absolutely. And that’s why I think we’ve forgotten that to be a moral person, to be a godly person, it actually requires courage. Like, you just don’t hear that very much. We think of it as you have to be pure in your thoughts and your life and all those things are true. But you have to have courage, because God will call you to something that requires faith and like you’re saying, it requires facing your fear. And I’m thinking right now because this is where your book lands. But I know this is where an awful lot of people are. Is some of the scariest things to do, are to pursue your own healing. Because it means instead of running away from what was painful, you actually have to lean into it, you actually have to go places that you don’t want to go. And yet, that’s something that you did. And I feel like you’re kind of not that any of us is on the other side. Because healing is a process that we won’t fully be healed till we’re in heaven, right? You know, so. But you’re kind of on the other side, where you’ve walked through some stuff and been able to say, hey, you can trust this process. So speak to that person right now who may be in that spot. RYAN GEORGE  26:25 Oh, man. The hard part is all of our journeys are nuanced, right? So I’m not calling someone and telling them, Hey, go back to the church where you came from, or go back to the religion that you came from, or even go back to a church as is commonly defined United States, like a Sunday service, or whatever else. What I am calling people to do is to find a version of Jesus they can fall in love with. And I was talking to a podcaster a few weeks ago, and she gave me this great analogy, and I got to use it. But she said, there are a lot of people who go to a Taylor Swift concert alone, but nobody goes home alone. They come home with friendship bracelets, and new friends and new Instagram connections and whatever else. And I said, for me, the Taylor Swift in that story is Jesus. And if I find that Jesus, that I’m a big fan of which I have found, and if I go to the concert, I’m going to bump into other people who love the same Jesus. And we’re going to trade friendship bracelets, and we’re going to start. So whether that spiritual community is a service, or whether it’s just meeting someone for coffee, there are certain people that I know, the first version of Jesus they can find is to go to therapy, and to be real. And what happens is, after you get used to telling your story in that room, then you get more courage to tell people outside of that room, et cetera. And so church can grow for you. But my book is not a call to go back on a Sunday. My call is to fall in love with the Jesus that I’ve fallen in love with, because it’s been utterly rewarding. And if you can look at it as a personal relationship, I know that that terminology has been used and abused in the faith that I grew up in. But as a note, this isn’t like me and the church. This is me and Jesus, and know that Jesus, everywhere he went, other people were attracted around that were fans of his hand up to 1000s of people. So no matter whether you define church as a house church, or, you know, multisite, non-denom, whatever. All of it is trappings; find the Jesus that loves you. And he promised, in his own words, read letters to the Bible. He said, If you seek me, and you seek with your whole heart, you will find me. And we’re on this divine scavenger hunt to find him everywhere and anywhere. And when you start intentionally looking for him. Like before, before I go on a hike, you’ll get this because you’re a hiker. Before I go on a hike in new places like God, will you reveal why you drew me to this trail? God, will you reveal what it is you want me to know about yourself today? And I can tell you how that prayers were answered hiking in the Faroe Islands and Iceland and Norway. I still remember how Jesus answered those prayers. I have prayed that prayer before getting on a flight at JFK. God, would you reveal why it is I’m getting on this plane? What do you want me to know about getting on this plane? And that led to a very emotional blog post and people are like, Oh, my goodness, you met Jesus on a flight to Finland? Like how does that even work? And if we’re expectant to find the real Jesus, why wouldn’t he want to reveal himself? Jesus gave up his life so that we could know him. So when we asked him, Jesus help me know you more, helped me find the real you, why wouldn’t he answer that prayer? Julie Roys  28:45 I love that. I love that. And it is the real Jesus. And unfortunately, he has not been portrayed to some of us as his true self. And it’s important that we find that. Ryan, this has been such a phenomenal conversation. I’ve so enjoyed it. Yeah, just so glad to have this conversation and for the gift of your book. And I know it takes a lot to write a book and especially one this personal. So thank you so much, and it’s just been a delight. RYAN GEORGE  29:45 Thanks for sharing me with your people. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript A bombshell report on the alleged “affair” between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards published by The Roys Report sent shock waves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people, who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were they both consensual partners? Or, was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? To consider such questions, Baylor University professor Dr. David Pooler, an expert on adult clergy sexual abuse, joins Julie Roys for this challenging but crucial discussion. They examine the difficult story of these two worship leaders in light of this often-misunderstood issue. Adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA) is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened here? Misty claims she's not a victim. And Kevin was not in a formal role of authority over Misty. But he was more than 20 years older than her. Past articles reveal Misty admired Kevin's songs and his intimate style of leading worship. And Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. Also, in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of “adulterous” relationships, describing his advances with women in ways that sound abusive. He wrote, “I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women, not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure.” Regarding Misty, she has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer Kansas City, or IHOPKC. Follow the shocking revelations concerning IHOPKC founder Mike Bickle and the ministry's response at this link. Many questions surround what happened with Misty and Kevin. Drawing from his extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, Dr. Pooler gives insight into these complex issues. Julie also addresses criticisms of her reporting, explaining the struggle of how to report this story, the ethics of journalism, and how this report helps shed light on the larger narrative. Guests Dr. David Pooler Dr. David Pooler is Professor and Director of the Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse; Advocacy and Research Collaborative at Baylor University in the Diana R. Garland School of Social Work. As a national expert on Adult Clergy Sexual Abuse, he brings insights about this phenomenon through research and his clinical practice with survivors. Dr. Pooler has a B.A. in psychology and religion from Lee University and earned the MSW and Ph.D in Social Work at the University of Louisville. He is married to Cheryl, who is also a faculty member in the School of Social Work at Baylor, and they have two adult daughters.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSDAVID POOLER, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:03Our bombshell report on the alleged affair between popular worship leaders Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards sent shockwaves through the charismatic Christian community. How could two people who ushered so many into the presence of God, sin in such an egregious way? But were both of them consensual partners? Or was Kevin, an admitted sexual predator, the abuser? And was Misty his victim? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today we’re going to discuss not just our report on Kevin and Misty, but the often-misunderstood issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. This is when someone in spiritual authority intentionally uses their role, position, and power to exploit someone else sexually. Is this what happened with Kevin and Misty? Kevin was not in any formal role of authority over Misty, but he was more than 20 years older than her. And we know from published articles that Misty admired Kevin’s songs and his intimate style of leading worship. Kevin also has a history of sexual predation. As I reported in 1999, Prosch admitted to a series of adulterous relationships. Yet when you hear the way he described those relationships, they sound abusive. Prosch writes, and I quote, I committed adultery and used my gifting to manipulate the women involved. I pursued women not only sexually but also emotionally and always for my own selfish gain and personal pleasure. The very gift God gave me to bless others with, I used to manipulate and seduce these women. We also know that Misty has spent the last 25 years in what is increasingly being exposed as a manipulative and sexually abusive environment at the International House of Prayer or IHOP in Kansas City. And if you haven’t been following the shocking revelations concerning IHOP founder Mike Bickle, I encourage you to go to the investigations tab at my website, JULIEROYS.COM. And there we have all of our stories on IHOP easily accessible.   Julie Roys  02:10 Well, again, there are a lot of questions surrounding what happened with Misty and Kevin, our reporting on Misty and Kevin, and this whole issue of adult clergy sexual abuse. And joining me for this discussion is a well-known expert on the topic, Dr. David Pooler. Dr. Pooler is a professor at Baylor University who’s done extensive research on adult clergy sexual abuse, and I’m so looking forward to speaking further with him about this topic.   Julie Roys  02:36 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  03:39 Well again, joining me is Dr. David Pooler, a professor at the Diana R Garland School of Social Work at Baylor University. Dr. Pooler has more than 15 years of social work practice experience and has done extensive work among at risk and abused children. But most pertinent to our discussion today is the research he’s done on adult clergy sexual abuse and his desire to develop healthy church congregations. So Dr. Pooler, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me.   DAVID POOLER 04:09 I am super glad to be here. It’s a real privilege and an honor that I get to talk about something that really matters.   Julie Roys  04:15 Now it does matter, and I just so appreciate your interest in abuse, but also in the way that I first met you at the RESTORE Conference, which to me, I was just kind of blown away when I saw you had signed up for it. I’m like, Oh, my goodness, Dr. Pooler is coming and, and he should be teaching, I should be like sitting under him. And yet you came just to learn and observe, and I just appreciate that.   DAVID POOLER 04:38 I did. I wanted to be around people that it’s almost like the folks that show up that RESTORE  are sort of my people if that makes sense. It’s sort of a hodgepodge of people who have been injured and wounded and are still finding their way and wanting things to be better and on some level looking for church reform, right and in ways that we often aren’t thinking about reform. And so I do think that this whole topic of adult clergy sexual abuse kind of sits in this strange place of the church just does not know what to do with. But yet there’s a lot of room for hope and healing and change to occur. That’s what I’m devoting my life to do.   Julie Roys  05:24 Well, I appreciate that. After we published this article on Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards on what I had termed in the article an affair, and I know that’s a very questionable word, given the context of everything, but you reached out to me, just with some concerns, some questions, and just in such a gracious manner, and we were able to have a zoom call about that. And as we’re having this call, I’m thinking, this is such a profitable conversation, I want to make this public. And so I invited you to do this podcast with me. I think this is going to be outstanding, and I appreciate just your demeanor in coming to me about that. But let me just, instead of me trying to paraphrase you, what were some of the concerns that you had with the article and with even how things were presented?   DAVID POOLER 06:12 Sure. When I read it, just in my study of adult clergy sexual abuse, I could immediately tell there was so much more than could be reported on there. These abusive systems and when I say abuse of systems where we have sort of a patriarchal leader, sort of men are elevated, and we have an issue around clericalism, where it’s elevating the priorities and needs of certain leaders to the exclusion of others. Anyway, but when I read the term affair and I’m like, for there to actually be an affair, there would have to be consent, people would have to be on equal power levels. And I’m like, I wonder if that’s really the case here. So I had issues with the term affair, because one of the things that’s really interesting is that there are 14 states that actually criminalize, have state statutes, where a pastoral leader if they abuse an adult under their care, they can be charged with a crime. In some states, it’s a misdemeanor, and some it’s a felony. California is a current state where there’s legislation happening right now, that’s going to be going through this session, where clergy will be added to the list of other helping professions around that. So I had issues with the term affair, primarily. And I also just was a little worried, too, that we could end up doing some victim blaming in this particular story, blaming Misty as if she’s completely complicit. And again, I’m just wondering, to what extent was position authority, the nature of the relationship, the gender? Are those things leveraged, exploited in this long history? I know Misty has been a part of that movement for years. And what way has she been, you know, her thinking has been sort of distorted, and shifted to come alongside and support leaders no matter what, and protect them at the exclusion of her own self and her own needs? There’s so much more complexity and nuance with this. And thankfully, your response was just amazing and led to this opportunity. Because in a sense, the article then gave an opportunity for a deeper, more meaningful conversation that can expand this and get more people talking about what is adult clergy sexual abuse? can pastors abuse adults and people under their care? even another minister under their care? My research with a resounding yes to all of that. And I’ve seen many cases where there has been a positional leader under another leader who actually is abused. And I’ve seen the system’s hold them equally accountable and like, but that’s not okay. And if you’ll allow me, I’ll share a little bit about what has framed my thinking around power and consent. And some of that actually has to do with the secular world. The secular world is way ahead of where the church is, quite frankly, when it looks at power differentials and consent, in relationships, interpersonal relationships, where there’s a lot of connection, and there’s a lot at stake. For example, with a therapist or a doctor, or a nurse, or my profession, a social worker. And so we have boards that guide our behavior. And so in no situation, would there ever be a case whereas a social worker, I had a sexual connection or relationship with someone that I was working with, and it would never be called consensual it never happened, because it would be clearly labeled as misconduct and inappropriate.   DAVID POOLER 09:42 So not only could I lose my license as a social worker, I would then be held accountable. Generally, every state has a state statute or law to hold a helping professional accountable. Again, that’s where ministry is so far behind, and I honestly think it’s interesting our separation of church and state is actually part of the problem. Because what happens is the church has just not been forced to keep up with evolving new ways of thinking about power, and consent, and relationships and boundaries. And that really, it’s always the person with more power, it’s their job and responsibility to delineate what a healthy relationship is going to be. It’s their responsibility to outline the boundaries, it’s their responsibility to maintain boundaries. But yet in the church, we have done so much victim blaming. A pastoral leader is sexual with someone that is dependent on them, and then they blame that person and says, Yeah, they just did this, that or the other. A lot of the purity culture stuff, a lot of our rape culture, quite frankly, in this society, and just, Oh, what was she wearing? What was she doing? She must have been the temptress, those kinds of things. So that sort of sets the stage for this conversation about adult clergy sexual abuse.   Julie Roys  11:04 And I don’t disagree with you on one thing that you just said. And in fact, I think my first introduction to adult clergy sexual abuse was hearing Lori Anne Thompson’s story. And if you don’t know Lori Anne’s story, she was one of the victims of Ravi Zacharias. And the way that she was manipulated, the way he found out her past abuse, and then used that to basically become a father figure. And then to exploit that, to get her to do something that she would not have normally done. But it was so predatory. It was so abusive, and I could see it once I heard the story. It was like, Oh, my goodness, of course. And we’ve had entire podcast we’ve done on this, I did one with Katie Roberts, who was, you know, in a similar type situation, and now she started an entire organization, helping adult victims of adult clergy sexual abuse. And so this is something I’m familiar with. And so if somebody asked me, do I think Misty Edwards was a victim? I would say, absolutely, 100 percent, I think she was a victim. What I found difficult with this story, normally, the victim in the stories that I report, is the source. It’s the person who comes to me with their story, and says, will you please report this story for me of this person that harmed me? Here I have a situation first time ever, honestly, where I have somebody coming to me, who is saying she’s not a victim. And I’m having to deal with a very complex story where there were two stories in this particular case; one, which was I referred to as the other secret because you couldn’t tell one story without having that story, because they were intertwined. But I didn’t tell that story, because it involved what to me was very clearly what you just described, it was abuse. And I wasn’t going to tell that story out of respect for the victim, because it was clearly abuse. With Kevin and Misty, again, my opinion, it was abuse. And so now I felt like it was one of those situations where you have two competing virtues and values. So on one hand, as an advocate, your highest commitment is to the victim, right? You’re there to protect the victim, the survivor, right? As a journalist, your responsibility is to protect the public, it is to serve the public interest. So you have two people, Kevin Prosch and Misty Edwards. Both have very large platforms. I didn’t know I’ll be honest; I didn’t know Misty before I started reporting on IHOP and then I discovered she has a global following. She has recorded seven albums with I don’t know if they’re all with 4Runner Music. I think most of them are which is IHOP’s label. And you have Kevin Prosch who, even though he has a past, he confessed these adulterous relationships which when honestly, when you read about them, they sound like they were abused, because he clearly used his position and power in these cases. I don’t know whether any were congregants at his church or not. But certainly he has a predatory pattern and likely was abused in these cases.   Julie Roys  14:09 But again, you have two people in positions of power, at least ostensibly, right? And you have Misty who’s on the executive leadership team at IHOP, which is their highest level of leadership. You have her saying she’s gonna go to Israel and go serve in prayer houses there. And I know that people are emulating her worship style – a worship style that frankly, she got from Kevin, she talks about this romantic worship this intimate worship. I was in the Vineyard movement; parts of that I agree with it and parts of it, I go, this is like getting a little icky. And so I think there were just so many factors and then having on top of it. You have someone like Brent Steeno, who’s a former IHOP staffer who’s saying I was abused in this I was harmed because I was smeared by these folks. There were just these complex dynamics and as a journalist, I felt and I know a lot of people were like, there’s a number of journalists who got this story and didn’t report it. Actually, from what I’ve heard from Brent. Judy at the Star, for example, Casey Stars done some excellent work on this. Just hadn’t figured out how to report it. But from journalistically she was like, That was a good story. And I didn’t hear that directly from her. But I’m just as a journalist, again, I felt a responsibility to the public to report this story, because they were two public figures. And because and why didn’t I report it as abuse? Were there some red flags there? Did Kevin have a predatory pattern? Yes, he had a predatory pattern. Was he a celebrity? And did she look up to him? Yes, but the argument can be made, she was just as big a celebrity as he was. There was an age differential, but we can’t automatically say that because there was an age differential. That was.   DAVID POOLER 15:55 Yeah, that was abuse, right?   Julie Roys  15:56 You can’t do that. And then, and then you have just this blackmail element to the story, which clearly when there’s blackmail, that’s abuse. That happened in my understanding five years into the relationship. So it definitely became coercive,  but I’ll be honest, I didn’t know whether I could even report the blackmail aspect of this story, because I have one witness telling me that she said it was blackmail, and I have one text that seems to support that where she said she wishes she could destroy all the devices. But it was pretty circumstantial. And I’m glad I reported it, because I wanted to put the clues in there to folks that they could look at that and say, whoa, wait, this was not okay. But at the same time, journalistically, I just felt like my hands were tied in this particular case.   Julie Roys  16:47 Now, having said that, could I have done it better? Could I do it better? I’m always open to that. Yeah. And that’s why you have these kinds of conversations afterwards to say, okay, how can we do this better? I’ll just give you a chance to reflect on that.   DAVID POOLER 17:01 The thing that really stands out to me that’s worthy of discussion on this is her reporting that she’s not a victim. And I think that’s worth taking a deeper dive into, because I’ve met survivors at various points along their healing journey, and many early on, would not call themselves a victim, on some level. They would blame themselves, possibly, but not see themselves as a victim, certainly not understand that they were being abused. Like, how should I say this, it would cause so much cognitive dissonance if they’re not along in their healing journey, or don’t have a name for what’s going on. Because, honestly, to come to grips with the fact that I had been harmed and injured to that level, by someone that I had trusted my life with, my spiritual life with my mediator, if you will, with God. And I’ve trusted that and to come to a deep and abiding realization that I had been betrayed and exploited, and sexually used and potentially sexually assaulted by this person? That’s like too much. But what I’ve noticed is that along the healing journey, as the awakening and awareness happens, they can then point back and say, absolutely, I was a victim. So that’s one of the big unknowns with Missy’s journey. Six months from now, two years from now, will the story be different? Will she then say, yes, indeed, I was a victim, and here’s how I was victimized, and here’s how I was injured. But most of the instincts of people is to protect their abusers, to protect the church because they’ve been socialized to do that. It’s almost like if this gets out, or it’s known that we’ve, of course, the perpetrators would use the word affair, if we’ve had an affair that would cause people to fall away from the Lord and leave. So they feel this enormous amount of responsibility to protect the institution, to protect the leader, to protect their abuser. And, of course, to me, that’s one of the big question marks at play in the story with Misty.   Julie Roys  19:08 And interestingly, I had a number of conversations with Misty some on the record some off the record, some I can’t talk about, but I will say right before I published the story, I called Misty, and I told her, I know that you don’t believe you’re a victim. I believe you are. And I also told her, I’m not going to report the one thing that we didn’t report, because it would to me expose a victim. That’s their story to come forward with if they want to. But we had those discussions, and it was just, it was heartbreaking to me personally. Misty’s one of the most tragic figures in this whole story, and if you know anything about what’s happened with her and I think a larger context that I couldn’t tell in this story, your heart can’t help but break for Misty and this whole situation.   Julie Roys  19:58 One thing that’s challenging for me too though is, as a reporter, I have to report what people tell me. So if somebody says they’re not a victim, I have to say that person says they’re not a victim. And I know too as advocates, and this whole advocate space is a little bit like the wild West right now. We have some people that are really trained. I spoke of Lori Anne Thompson, she’s someone that went and got her master’s degree is very educated on real advocacy and how to come alongside people. But I remember at our 2022 RESTORE conference, she talked about advocates speaking for victims, and victims often say, speak for me, because I have no voice. And she’s like, Excuse me, unless you’re dead, you have a voice. You have a voice, and the job of advocates is to come alongside the victim, and allow the victim to tell their story, not to put words in their mouth or to tell them their story for them. And so it becomes very challenging when you have someone who’s maybe they’re living in an alternate reality, where they have taken blame for something they shouldn’t take blame for, or they have seen this in a certain context, where they see protecting the legacy of someone that you go, are you kidding me? protecting the legacy of this person, who’s an abuser? Why would you want to protect that legacy?   Julie Roys  21:14 But how can we, as a reporter, I have certain rules I have to abide by. As advocates, there’s a little more leeway. But how can we be helpful in this stage with people who, and right now I’m sure Misty is representative of an awful lot of people who may have been victimized by a system or by a person that don’t see themselves as victims?   DAVID POOLER 21:37 Helping people move from victim to survivor is huge. But I feel like I did something wrong, I’m really not a victim, I participated in this, right? Believe it or not, I actually still have some control. That’s one of the things I’ve noticed as a clinician. But when I say I’ve actually been victimized, that means I literally could have done nothing to stop it. It’s like it literally happened. I am powerless. That doesn’t mean their powerless going forward. But just the acknowledgement of the nature of the wounding and the injury, was this was totally done to me by someone else. And I think that’s really hard for people. For Misty and/or lots of other people in that sort of space, right? And I think part of it is having conversations like this, being able to have an adequate definition of adult clergy sexual abuse, to actually say, hey, it’s when a leader uses their power position, their authority to basically gain access sexually to someone under their care, or that they’re working with or supporting in some way. That person is dependent on them in some way. And they use that dependence as a way to be sexual with them. That’s adult clergy sexual abuse. And interestingly if someone’s 16, or 20, there’s nothing magical that happens when someone is 18. The same tactic someone uses to groom and exploit a 15 year old is the same that they would use to groom and exploit and be sexual with someone who’s 25. It’s the same dynamics. And so uncovering those dynamics, talking about how people are groomed, because that’s the thing, abusive leaders use the language, the culture, Bible verses, and even their authority, their pastoral authority, God is in this. So the Holy Spirit has told me; they use all that language to gain sexual access to somebody. And then when you look at that, it’s just grotesque, right? It’s predatory on the deepest level. Being able to just honestly have the conversation for the church to say, this is indeed happening in our midst. And we have very little in place to detect abusive people. We have almost nothing set up within our religious structures where people can go to report it, or a system that’s going to listen to it or believe the person.   DAVID POOLER 23:56 In my research, one of the things that’s most damaging, actually, to survivors is the church response. If that makes sense. It’s not just the nature of the injury itself. But it’s the way the institution fails to respond adequately, by believing them and supporting them and validating them and helping them get help, and then holding the abusive leader accountable or removing them from ministry or out of the way so they can’t harm anybody else. They we just tend to continue to elevate the abusive person and shove the victim right out the door, right? In the playbook of the evangelical world, but I’ll be honest, it’s beyond the evangelical world. I mean, there’s a case I’m involved with right now, where I’m going to be an expert witness, if you will, and it’s a much more progressive denomination. But the narrative is the same, oh, it was consensual. And it clearly was not. We really have a problem. And I’ll give you just a quick statistic. This is really old, but Diana Garland’s research going back to a study in 2009. She actually looked at what percentage of women who regularly attend church had an unwanted sexual advance from their church leader, and the unwanted sexual advance was framed in such a way, that it would be clearly wrong, if someone found out they would really have concerns about what had happened. But if you extrapolate this out to the average sized church and sort of the gender makeup of your average sized church. So if you take an average sized Church of 400, there would be seven women in every church of 400, in the United States, where this has happened. So again, it’s about 3%. So it’s not a huge amount, right? But it’s also something that we have to take very seriously. It is indeed happening. And I would say every church has someone who’s experienced some version of sexual exploitation or harassment by a church leader. We can have every year we do domestic violence months and things, but we ought to celebrate and honor those people who’ve been injured by clergy and say, you are among us. You are here. We care about you. We care about your experiences, and we know you’ve been injured within the church. And we’re doing something about it instead of just ignoring the problem.   Julie Roys  26:13 Well in this environment that you’re describing, where obviously we have predators, obviously, I’ll say allegedly, but it’s been certainly we have so many victims right now, or alleged victims that have come forth and said, Mike Bickle abused me, started when I was 14, or 15, or 19, depending on the particular story. But this seems like a man who was a serial predator, and preyed on the women that were under him, and had this persona of being hearer, and God spoke directly to him. And the angel Gabriel showed up, how could you possibly question this man of God? And then you have this whole history, this prophetic history, that seems like it was almost put on the level of Scripture. Like, you can’t question this history, like, this is what’s happened. And it was really so grandiose. I’m reading this, and I’m going, Whoa, like, Why didn’t red flags go up? And yet I heard from somebody recently who was like, yeah, it probably would have but he was accepted in mainstream evangelicalism, which to me is a whole other discussion. Like, why did nobody see that this was a problem? These are really grandiose things that he is claiming and stating very early on, and selling to impressionable young adults, men and women who are a part of this.   Julie Roys  27:30 But let’s talk about specifically at some place like IHOP where, and I’m not gonna say that abuse happens more at charismatic churches than non-charismatic, I’ve seen plenty at non charismatic. But I have to say, when you think that your leader is like God, in direct line with God, and you have this Moses model of leading, which is really an Old Testament, I won’t get into all of that. But I mean, this idea that God speaks to  your pastor like he spoke to Moses, and now he’s the Prophet and the word for you, or he’s the apostle and the word for you. And again, I see in the New Testament, a totally different thing where the gifts are available to everyone. There isn’t like one person who has a direct line to God. We all have a direct line to God in that sense. But speak to this particular system. What, again, we’re outsiders, although you are in the Church of God, which started with Assemblies of God, right? And the two were very connected.   DAVID POOLER 28:24 Same origins. Yeah, around the turn of the last century.   Julie Roys  28:27 Okay. And I was in Vineyard. There’s a lot that I absolutely love about charismatic denominations, and I love about the charismatic movement, and I’m not a Cessationist. But at the same time, I do think there are some things that are particular to these systems that can lend themselves to this kind of clergy sexual abuse.   DAVID POOLER 28:48 Absolutely. Yeah. Where I literally go back to is the clericalism. again. And I think it can be heightened in spaces like this, where you have a central charismatic leader, whose authority is almost unquestioned. Because what ends up happening is there’s a high level of dependence on everyone upon what they say, and what they do. What they say is okay, what they say is not okay. And it’s a diminishing of power among everyone else around their sense of personal agency, their ability to think critically, ask questions, dissent, push back, right? So none of that is tolerated. So when a system like that, if that leader crosses the line and wants to be sexual and says, it’s God’s will, no one’s gonna question, right? I mean, the system is set up to sort of make perfect victims; that it’s not just the IHOP system. There’s plenty of others, but we’re talking about that it literally sets people up to be exploited and victimized. I don’t mean to oversimplify it, but that’s it in a nutshell right there. And so one of the things I suggest in my research is a much deeper level of power sharing between leadership and laity, or congregants., right? A much more robust way of holding people accountable.   DAVID POOLER 30:12 The other thing I’ve struggled with is, so how do congregants benefit from clericalism? They don’t have to do as much work, they don’t have to do as much critical thinking, they don’t have to be at the table, being My Brother’s Keeper, really. They get to sort of offload all of that responsibility on to the leader. And the fact is, that’s not a great system. We need a much better system where people are empowered in congregations to really all be concerned about abuse, all be concerned about exploitation, and flip it to the other side to be concerned about flourishing, and well-being. And how do we have a really healthy congregation, right? Then if everyone’s really not at the table talking about that, and one leader is trying to tell you what a healthy thing is? You’re probably not. It’s probably going away off into the ditch, which is what we’ve actually seen had been happening at IHOP for years. There were people being injured and torn up and ground up under the machinery of this institution, right? In a sense people waylaid and victimized for years. And it just finally came to light. Because any dissent anyone speaking up or questioning or trying to bring it to light would have immediately been pushed out of the system. The system wouldn’t tolerate that.   Julie Roys  30:12 I’m trying to figure out how though, like when you’re in a system like that, I mean, you read the Scripture, it’s pretty clear. I mean, you have someone like Mike Bickle married, clearly shouldn’t be engaging in outside sexual activity. And yet, if you’re the recipient of his sexual advances, how do you put that dissonance together? And, and I know people are pushing back and saying, Well, okay, how did they not know that this was wrong? Or why when you’re in a system like that, what happens just psychologically, to put these two seemingly contradictory things together? How do you do that?   DAVID POOLER 32:09 Yeah. So honestly, your question gets at the grooming process. And what I’ve noticed with these predatory folks is they start creating a culture where more physical touch is okay. And most of the predators will test the people out, they’ll do a prolonged hug or other things. And they do this over months and months. And eventually, I can’t tell you how many times this happened. It would be so interesting to find out how many folks that I have this happened to, they’ll be like, Can I kiss your hand? and then can I kiss your neck? And then eventually, it’s a kiss on the lips. So it’s not just, you know, the adage of the frog boiling in the water; you don’t just drop them in the boiling water, it jumps out, or whatever. You slowly turn it up. These predatory folks have mastered grooming, and they will slowly blur and break boundaries over months and sometimes even years until they finally have the person have full access to them. And they’ll use whatever playbook they need, including the things I just talked about. But again, adding in the Scripture and those things. So by the time the person is, if you will, actually being sexual with the leader, they’re no longer trusting their intuition. So anytime someone’s intuition said something’s wrong, right? That’s the other thing about those systems is that intuition is tossed out like your gut reaction, that something is wrong, is squashed over and over and over to the point it doesn’t work anymore. So you don’t trust yourself at all. You’ve been socialized to trust the leader and their perspective.   DAVID POOLER 33:36 So in a sense, that’s how that dissonance occurs, its slowly broken down over time. So by the time sexual activity is actually happening, even though the person so honestly, the victim is actually I’ve heard this so many times, they literally feel insane. They  feel completely insane. Like, this can’t be okay, but yet, I’m being told it’s okay. What is wrong with me? It is an internal sort of soul injury of dissonance that’s ripping them apart. But yet they’ve been taught to conform, to stay in church and to keep trusting the leader no matter what because, of course, they know what they’re doing. God has called them, and God is in charge of this. All these things that get used to injure people. And this is the stuff we’ve got to really be talking about. In fact, I actually have a doctoral student right now. We’re working on a paper right now to identify the grooming tactics. So what we hope to do is spit in the soup of the playbook of predators, quite frankly, so that their playbook doesn’t work anymore. Maybe they’ll come up with new tactics, but at least the ones that have been regularly used and the survivors I’ve interviewed that won’t be accessible anymore. We’ll know how they do it. And so that when someone sees a leader doing something or saying something, they can trust their intuition that this information is now actually out for the public to consume and use to inform them to be, in a sense, a better citizen or a better participant or a better congregate, talk about this in the secular world, sort of the non-protecting bystander. We have so much of that going on right now in the church, where it’s like, I see something, I wonder, is that okay? Or when the pastor did that? But we’re just taught to where we don’t protect, we don’t intervene, we just stay back. Because that behavior of getting in and getting it messy, we don’t like that. But I honestly think that kind of messiness, and questioning, critical thinking is a part of what actually would make our churches way healthier.   Julie Roys  35:38 The problem is, you’re not allowed to question. If you say there is a problem, then you are the problem. I’ve interviewed so many people from IHOP, who said, Yeah, I would see women go into Mike’s office and spend an inordinate amount of time and like we didn’t have access to Mike like that. But why did these women who weren’t even necessarily very high up in the organization, were going into his office and spending all this time? Why are there locks on the inside of the office? Some of these things that are just bizarre, but he had ways of dealing with that. And I’m sure with his victims, when I’ve heard this from victims who thought they were in love their abuser, think they’re in love with their abuser. And then also think like with Ravi, it was like, you can’t expose me I need this because I’m under so much pressure. And I’m just human. And if I don’t have this kind of support from you, then I just can’t function and you’re critical to my functioning. And if you say anything, then oh, do you want to bring down the whole apologetics movement, or in this case, the whole prayer movement? You want that to be on you that you’ve just brought that all down? Even now, people are protecting the prayer movement. They’re protecting Mike’s legacy. They’re protecting something that has been shown to be fraudulent, not that the whole prayer movement is fraudulent. But certainly, whatever requires Mike Bickle as its foundation is not legitimate.   Julie Roys  37:00 What does a bystander do, though, and these are my sources that I talk to almost every day, right? And Brent in the story was a bystander, right? He’s a bystander, but he wasn’t just a bystander, if you believe his story, and I obviously did believe his story. Misty divulged a lot of these things to him, but then also confines him to secrecy. Like all of a sudden now, I remember when I was in youth ministry, when people would be like, I’m going to tell you something, but I don’t want you to tell anybody else. And I’d be like, no. Timeout timeout. You know, if there are certain things if you tell me, I’m responsible to tell somebody else. I’m trusting that you’re telling me because you trust me. And I will try to be trustworthy, but that trustworthiness may mean that I have to tell somebody about what you’re going to tell me. Let me just put that out there ground rules before you tell me anything further. Here’s Brent in this situation, though. Now he’s stuck with this secret. And what does he do? It’s ripping him up. It’s destroying him. What does he do? And what do bystanders do, or witnesses do in a situation where they see abuse? And if they come forward, as in this case, and this is a whole other dynamic too which maybe a follow up question to this is when the victim becomes part of the abusive system and begins harming other people? But what do you do as a bystander in that situation?   DAVID POOLER 38:20 Yeah, yeah, the complications are built into all of this. There’s not a pass, there’s not the one thing that you’re supposed to do. But I do think staying silent is not okay. And doing nothing is not okay. We have to do something. And I do think many people who bring up or confront a system where there’s a lot of power held in one person, or bring up something that’s of a major concern, they’re going to get injured by that system, because that system is protecting itself. And it’s protecting the power and the control that it has. And part of it is when someone’s bringing up something or pointing out something that’s wrong, or where there’s injury, it’s a threat to the system, if the system is that unhealthy, and it is abusive, it’s we don’t want to get found out. Yeah, so there’s no simple answer other than Yeah, I think people are going to have to take the risk and put their own neck out for someone else. Again, so anytime you stand up for someone who’s being injured, the likelihood of you being injured, too, is very high. It takes courage.   Julie Roys  39:29 It is and so often they do what they’re told to do in the church, which is go to your leaders within your organization. And sadly, those leaders within the organization they’ve been groomed to protect. And so they are going to as you say, they’re going to harm you. And people often say who made you judge and jury as journalists where we report on a lot of the stories? For one I’m not judge and jury. I report the facts. You’re the judge and jury. You are.   DAVID POOLER 39:59 Yeah. people make sense of what you’re reporting. Yeah,   Julie Roys  40:01 That’s right. I report the facts, you make sense of it. And I wish we didn’t have to exist. I wish the church had some sort of structures in place to police itself. And it does in some denominations. They don’t seem to be working very well, these structures that we have in place. I hope at some point, we at least I love that there’s 14 states where adult clergy sexual abuse is a crime as it should be. I hope that more states are like this. But it seems to me at the very least, there should be some sort of professional, just like when you’re a doctor, or therapist or whatever, there aren’t professional standards. I know, as a journalist, there are professional standards. You can go and read them, where the society professional journalists have put it out. This is what we adhere to, this is what we do. And we have to adhere to them. And if you don’t, then you can be disqualified. Do we need to get some system in place for licensing pastors?   DAVID POOLER 40:58 Wouldn’t that be great? The fact is, I think there is no way probably even in my lifetime that our society we can get there. Because currently what we have are different denominations that have varying ways of here’s the education that you know, some denominations might require having a Master of Divinity for ordination, some might require nothing. You can have a high school diploma or not even and go through a process. And you can get a ministerial ordination certificate online for free. It is the absolute Wild West, a completely unregulated space. Even though I agree, ideally, in an ideal world, absolutely, we should. But again, that’s the very nature of the question is why we have such a huge problem in our religious institutions right now is because of our lack of accountability. And so many people with power surround themselves by Yes men, yes women, yes people, right? who aren’t going to hold them accountable, who are just a part of that system of control and power and money. I mean, I don’t want to be too cynical. But I also want to be incredibly realistic. There are way too many leaders, if you will, doing what they do because it’s unregulated. They’re free to do whatever they want to do. They have an enormous amount of power and influence and money. And they’re going to keep doing it because it benefits them in an incredible way.   Julie Roys  42:26 Yeah. And unfortunately, I think there’s far too many pastors out there that don’t understand this and don’t understand this dynamic. And so they’re restoring these abusive pastors who, again, it’s not just a sin problem, I mean, there’s something deep, deeply wrong when someone is a predator like this and a serial predator. You don’t just confess it, and then go back to another church. Stephen Strang, who’s the CEO of Charisma Media, Charisma Magazine. He went on before Mike has given like a half apology that ever really isn’t an apology. He hasn’t even come close to owning this and repenting from this. And Stephen Strang saying, Oh, isn’t it a noble thing to restore people? I’ve always thought that was a noble thing. And so we just keep restoring these pastors. Talk about the pastor as a predator; should someone who’s abused somebody in this way ever be restored to a position of trust?   DAVID POOLER 43:26 In my opinion, after having done so much research on this, almost never. Like that would be the exception rather than the rule if anyone could ever return to ministry and influence people the way they had. Part of your question gets at something that I think we weaponize, which is forgiveness. We are actually using and weaponizing forgiveness as a shortcut. And actually, then what we do is we put the burden on the person who’s been injured, you just need to forgive. And once you’ve forgiven, then we can restore. It’s almost like forgiven, once we hear you’re okay, again, and that we’ll  put them back in ministry. So the burden is in the wrong place. The burden should be on the person who’s done the injuring, and go through an incredibly rigorous, even if they’re not restored in any particular way they need to make right the wrongs they’ve done. They literally need to take years to do the work to figure out what happened, why they did it, the exact nature of the injuries that they’ve caused, and figuring out ways to actually help heal those, right? That’s where the burden should be. So if someone were ever to be restored, it should be the exception. And to me, it would be years in the making. But typically what when we do remove someone from ministry, we send them off somewhere, and it’s not even really therapy, it’s some discipleship program somewhere that people go through for four months and say they’re restored, and we bring them back. That is completely inadequate. So I’m with you that yeah, in most of my writing, I’m just like, yeah, whenever this happens, it should preclude them ever having a job in ministry again. Because what for me as a social worker it would. If I were sexual with a client, I’d lose my license and I wouldn’t be able to work in my chosen profession. Why do ministers who have all this power and authority and esteem and represent God, get to just jump right back in? We’ve got it upside down right now.   Julie Roys  45:23 We do. And I think what people don’t realize is that, fundamentally, there’s deception at the core of this. So this is someone who is skilled at deceiving people. So how on earth do you know that this person is repentant? How on earth do you know if this person won’t reoffend? They’re a master manipulator and deceiver. You just don’t put people like that back in positions where they’re over people, and they have authority and a means of manipulating people. You just cannot do that. I look at certain pastors who have fallen. And I’m like, there are not enough years left in this person’s life to restore the trust they’ve betrayed. There’s just not. The only way you know if someone’s changed, is, over time, a long time in a community. And we’re sadly in a situation in evangelicalism where the pastor’s removed from community, especially in these mega churches, especially in these big movements, they’re removed from accountability, people don’t know them. And again, just ripe for this type of abuse.   Julie Roys  46:28 So, glad we’re talking about it. And I don’t want to not touch on something that I mentioned earlier, but we didn’t really dig into it. Talk about the victim, who then becomes a victimizer, who becomes a part of the system. I don’t know how common that is. I will say in my reporting, it hasn’t been all that common. But in this particular case, there’s at least some people saying there was Misty participating in some harm. I don’t think she saw it as that. But talk about that dynamic and how that happens, and how to deal with it.   DAVID POOLER 47:05 So to universalize, this on some level, we’ve all been injured, and we’ve all injured others on some level. So we can just sort of state that’s a fact about being human. But I would just say in my experience, most victims of adult clergy sexual abuse, they themselves do not go on to injure and harm others. However, I think some of the exceptions to that are when that person who potentially is being abused and injured is at the core and has power and has influence. And there’s something at stake in both the way that they’re protecting the system, and some of even protecting their own interests in some way, whether that’s financial, emotional, psychological, whatever that is. And I think when we’re backed into a corner, we’re likely to lash out and injure others. So it absolutely can happen. But I guess that’s the thing is like, where do you go back and tracing back by say, hurt people? Right? On some level, that’s exactly right.   DAVID POOLER 48:10 But I think what’s important in all this is teasing out some of these dynamics that, yes, someone may have been a victim, and then they have injured someone else in a certain way. They don’t get off the hook for that, right? They need to make that right, acknowledge that and own that. In any given day any of us can injure or heal. And I think part of what we have to just say is that all injuries are not the same. Right? When you’ve got a predatory person, deeply injuring someone who’s going to have major pain for the rest of their life. Right? I’ll just add a statistic. I just got a paper that’s under review right now. But 39% of the survivors of adult clergy sexual abuse that participated in my research, 39% have PTSD. The injuries are deep, abiding, and profound. This isn’t just a little fly by night, oh, this was no big deal. The data I’m looking at, are saying this is a huge deal. It’s causing post-traumatic stress disorder, a mental health diagnosis that has profound impact on how we function and think and navigate relationships. It’s a big deal.   Julie Roys  49:25  It’s not just adult clergy sexual abuse, the amount of spiritual abuse and what that does to people. I will never forget. And this was very early on in my reporting. When I was reporting on Harvest Bible Chapel and James McDonald and the harm he was causing people. And there was a couple that came over it was actually the former chairman of the board of elders at Harvest and his wife, and they had been out of the church for 10 years. They came over and I’ll never forget his wife was literally shaking, and she’s like, I’ve been out of it 10 years. She had never seen a counselor to get this diagnosis, but she’s like, I’m sure I have PTSD. She’s to this day and she was shaking, telling the stories; 10 years out of it.   Julie Roys  50:08 I remember somebody else I talked to said, his counselor asked him at one point, how often do you think about James McDonald? and he said at least seven times a week, because he knew daily, he still thought of the abuse that he had received. Again, no sexual abuse in this, just bullying and nasty spiritual abuse. And it is just such a scourge in our churches right now and something we don’t understand. And so I appreciate so much you reaching out. This is one story I have just agonized over before I published. I continue to agonize afterwards. Could we have framed something differently? I just think all of us, we need to be asking these questions need to be doing better at understanding it in the church and having more of these discussions. And so I’m very grateful for that. Is there anything that I haven’t brought up that as you’re looking at this particular situation, that you feel needs to be highlighted, or that we just haven’t explored yet?   DAVID POOLER 51:03 Maybe this is an interesting place for this to end. But around maybe the person who’s been injured, who thinks they’re in love with their abuser.   Julie Roys  51:13 Is that the Stockholm Syndrome?   DAVID POOLER 51:15 It can be, but I think, on its deepest level, is that this person has met a need for  the survivor. In other words, as a need for belonging, affirmation, feeling important, feeling valued, feeling essential, having a sense of purpose. And these predators actually exploit all of those very human normal needs that could be met in very healthy ways, as far as being a part of a congregation. But are met in a way that of course, you know, how I describe that grooming process. And it takes on a life of its own, but there’s this sense of this person loves me. And of course, and that I’m going to protect the person who I think loves me, and I love them, right? And so breaking that trauma bond, almost around that, is a huge part of recovery for people. I guess, if anything, I would just want to validate it’s a messy and complex journey for people. And what we’ve got to do better in the church is see it for the abuse that it is, and quickly come alongside people that have been injured in our midst and include them and embrace them and let them remain in our congregation. Because right now, the status quo is to push them out and exclude them and blame them and ask what they did wrong. Really, the reason we do that is our collective cognitive dissonance around the fact that we currently in 2024, have predatory leaders in our midst, all over the place, injuring people. We would rather believe that the church is wonderful, our churches are healthy, our churches are safe, our leaders are amazing. But it upsets our little utopia that we’ve created for ourselves.   DAVID POOLER 53:08 And so I guess that’s where I would end is that getting through this requires a depth of critical thinking, a depth of courage, a depth of awakening and self-awareness, a reckoning with ourselves in a way that the church just isn’t used to. But I think if the church can move in that direction, the church would be far more appealing to others. Look, here’s a place that’s wrestling with its own self, with its own questions, and its own failures in really authentic ways that are like really dealing with the hurts that had been caused and holding people accountable. Because right now, I can’t imagine people looking at some of the crises that are facing the church and being attracted to it at all. If anything, it’s gotta be nauseating, and repulsive. I don’t want anything to do with that.   DAVID POOLER 54:03 So that’s sort of my invitation, my call going back to just how messy this is. It’s being a Christian it’s not easy. It’s not for people who want an easy way or an easy path. In fact, it calls us to the depths of injuries and hurt. Yeah, even my own theology has changed as a result of looking at all of this, right? My theology is no longer super positive and super wonderful and just isn’t God great and isn’t being a Christian, super fun? No, it’s a lot of hard work. It’s grief. It’s so effort expended in ways I never imagined. But I honestly think, Oh, I’ll end with this. I think the survivors of this kind of trauma and injuries in our church actually are some of our future church leaders. They know best what a healthy church would look like. They know best what to avoid in a leader who would injure people. They know best what it’s like to actually heal from some of the deepest wounds that you could experience. Right? I don’t know, I have a lot of hope for where we are. But it’s going to include the voices of people who’ve been deeply injured in our spaces of adult clergy sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, some of the things that you cover and talk about. It’s those very people who are making their way through this that can lead us and bring us new light.   Julie Roys  55:29 I agree with that 100%. I think Phil Monroe, in the message that he gave to RESTORE in 2022 said something along those lines, and the sweetness when you are around survivors, and these are people whose faith has been through the fire, and some of them are clinging to just like barely clinging on to faith. But some of them also, if you come through this, and you even have a mustard seed left, that’s commendable. That’s all I can say. And so I think these folks are our teachers, they will be our teachers. And can I just say, with this particular story, I do pray for Misty, I really do. And I really, truly hope that she comes to a place of being able to tell her story truthfully to herself. She will find there is a great deal of love and support for her and for others who have been through similar things. Thank you, David. I so appreciate you joining me. I learned a ton, as always, just really wonderful. So thank you.   DAVID POOLER 56:33 Thank you, Julie. I so appreciate being here. What a privilege.   Julie Roys  56:37 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a quick reminder, all of our content at The Roys Report is available free of charge. We don’t erect paywalls. We don’t make you pay for our conference talks. Everything is free and available to the public. However, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t cost us money to produce it. It does. And if you want to know how we spend our money, our financial reports are available on our donate page. All that to say we rely on your donations to do what we do. So if you believe in our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church, would you please help us out this month? To do so just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/3TQsIWujVnI Once you've experienced trauma, how do you heal? What should you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? In this edition of The Roys Report, discover answers to these questions and more in an in-depth talk from professional psychologist, Dr. Phil Monroe. It comes from his recent (and second) appearance at the Restore Conference. And you'll hear the wisdom and gentle demeanor that have made him a favorite among attendees. All too often, people who are traumatized don't know how to find the help they need. They may end up in the care of someone who wasn't qualified or able to help them. Or, in some cases, the person who was supposed to help them with trauma actually made their trauma worse. As a trusted voice in the survivor community and an expert in trauma, Dr. Monroe gives practical, actionable steps about what to do—and not to do—in one's healing journey. He talks about the ways trauma hinders all aspects of oneself. “You need to take care of your body—it's the only one you have,” he says. Healing from trauma isn't a journey anyone wanted to be on. Yet Dr. Monroe gives each of us strategies, tools, and even grace to take the time and energy needed for the path ahead. Guests Phil Monroe Philip Monroe, PsyD, is a psychologist who leads Langberg, Monroe & Associates, a private clinical practice in the greater Philadelphia area. He is the Taylor Visiting Professor of Counseling at Missio Seminary where he and Dr. Diane Langberg founded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute. Learn more at philipmonroe.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, PHIL MONROE PHIL MONROE  00:04 Once you've experienced trauma, how do you heal? What do you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? Welcome to The Roys Report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys, and on this podcast you're going to hear a talk from our last RESTORE conference by Dr. Phil Monroe on the do's and don'ts of healing. Phil is a trusted voice in the survivor community. He leads the counseling practice begun by Dr. Diane Langberg, a popular author and globally recognized trauma expert. Phil is an expert on trauma as well and leads the trauma healing Institute at the American Bible Society, and he's a repeat speaker at RESTORE and someone whose wisdom and gentle demeanor has made him a favorite at the conference. But I especially appreciated his talk at the last RESTORE. So often I hear from people who knew they were traumatized and needed help. But sadly, they didn't know how to find the help that they needed. They ended up in the care of someone who wasn't qualified or able to help them. Or in some cases, the person who was supposed to help actually made their trauma worse. So, this is an incredibly important topic and one I'm eager for all of you to hear. Julie Roys  01:18 But first I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys  02:21 Well, again, the talk you're about to hear is from Dr. Phil Monroe from our last restore conference in October. Here's his message on the do's and don'ts of healing from trauma. PHIL MONROE  02:32 It's good to be here with you. And it is good to follow Carson and LoriAnne. Thank you for telling us your story. Thank you for shining light. It's costly when you tell your story. Even when you tell your story in front of a group of safe people, it's costly. And I bet some of you too, have been telling your story on the sides here of the room for coffee over lunch, and you've been telling parts of it. And you might find yourself at the end of this weekend exhausted. That's normal. That's what happens to us when we exert the energy to speak and to speak the unspeakable. So, I encourage you ,have compassion, take care of you. Think about what you're going to be putting into your body and what you're going to do the rest of this weekend when this conference is over. Because you will need recovery time. We all do. I also encourage you when the videos come out, play back Dr. Lena's, Carson's, and Lori Anne's parts where they're talking about how they recovered. Your journey will look different. It will be different; you have different stories, you have different guides, you have different geographies to traverse. But there's goodness in there to hear again from them, what it's been taking for them to heal, what did they need? What helped? This is the question that I get asked a lot and for why I came up here today. PHIL MONROE  04:19 How do we know if we're doing this journey right? This journey of healing it is a journey. Trauma is a wound that affects every part of your life. It hinders your ability to relate to your own self, much less your family, your friends, your community, and your faith. It takes a long time to heal. And it feels like this journey that we never wanted to be on that we never asked for, and we're in this foreign land that doesn't make any sense. And we're both somehow equally alone on this journey, but with a whole bunch of people on the sidelines yelling advice to us. And some of it might be helpful. A lot of it probably isn't. Right? So, this journey that you never wanted to be on takes energy and time. And so, let's take a few moments to just talk about, how do we know if we're doing it right? What is it supposed to be like this journey of healing? Carson talked this morning about, you know, doing it and feeling like he was making progress., and then going back down in the hole, I think LoriAnne said the same thing. This is what it feels like, we go a step forward, and 10 back. This is the healing journey. It's normal, it's natural. And you are doing it right. PHIL MONROE  05:52 I want to give you a little bit of a preview about where we're going. Well, I'll talk about a few things, a few hooks to hang some ideas on. We'll look at some of the myths that we believe that kind of interrupt our healing journey, we'll look at some of the red flags, I'll add to some of the things that LoriAnne said, some red flags about those helpers, those guides along the way that we should give pause to and consider whether or not that's the right person for us. And then end with some ideas about all the therapies that are out there that you've heard, and what you might do in order to try to figure out what's the right thing for me. Again, I'm not going to be able to tell you what that right thing is for you. But if we have some ideas, and things that can help us make that decision, then we might be in a better place. PHIL MONROE  06:47 So, let's start with three things that you can hang all of what we're going to talk on, on what it means to be on the healing journey, three hooks that you need. These are three things that no matter what model you use, no matter what kind of guide you're looking for, you probably need in your life. The very first thing is to take care of your body, to take care of you. Trauma affects every part of your life. It affects your body, your mind, your soul, your spirit, every bit of you has been impacted. And your number one activity is to take care of you. And to do it with compassion and curiosity. I'm going to repeat that a couple of times during our talk here, because I actually find it rather rare in our Christian environments. Somehow self-compassion sounds like self-ish. And curiosity seems dangerous, because we might ask  unlight questions, and we might come up with some answers of things that help that others think no, you can't do that. You need to take care of this body of yours. It's the only one you get. This has come to my attention more recently in the last couple of weeks, I hurt my back. You've seen me with a cane around here. This is a violation of my pride. So, I didn't bring it up here. But I needed it. And what happened is, I thought I was younger than I was, and I carried around a heavy backpack for a lot of miles, and then paid the price a few days later. What happened to me was, my muscles went into contraction, and I was immobilized. And even as I began to the healing journey, and getting physical therapy and medications and understanding what was going on with me, I didn't want to move, everything locked up. Any movement could bring that spasm back. And I needed guides and friends to say, you know, you can relax those other muscles that aren't working right now. I had to tell myself this over and over again. I had to think about, what does my body need? My instinct was to actually not move in order to not hurt. But I needed to remember no actually, movement helps. As one of my friends says, motion is lotion. It keeps you moving so you can move more. Right? So, this is the small little trauma that I experienced that lasted for about a week and I'm still recovering from it. But imagine if your body has been impacted by decades of trauma, how much more compassion we need to have and curiosity? It didn't do me any good to beat up my muscles and to tell them they shouldn't be this way. Right? And it won't do you any good to beat yourself up and think you should be better than you are. So, compassion and curiosity, finding out what helps it. PHIL MONROE  10:05 Similarly to this and related to this is what LoriAnne was talking about finding stability in a triggering world. Finding stability is your job number one on repeat, how do I find stability? You know that first stage that she was talking about? safety and stabilization? it never ends, it's not a stage that you do, and then you stop doing. You continue it. And even in a great weekend like this, where we're talking and we're naming truth, and you're getting vocabulary that makes sense for you, and helps you understand your story and helps you communicate that to other people. Right? You still need to find stability, you still need safety, you need to think about the things that helped me come back to ground. LoriAnne demonstrated this, in through the nose, hold, out through the mouth. You're communicating to your body that you're here. And that you can remember to breathe. PHIL MONROE  11:13 I'm pretty sure a bunch of you forgot to breathe during the last session. You held your breath. It's normal, it's what we do. But we can also remind ourselves to breathe, right? So, we take care of our bodies with curiosity and compassion, and we keep finding ground, we look for that stability. This is our main task. And it's not because you have some disability. It's because you're coming back to truth, you're coming back to present, you're coming back to the reality of where your body is at this present time. So those two things, no matter what you do, you'll be doing. And the third thing that you're going to do with this as well, is to begin your story again. Somebody took your story, hijacked it, told you things that weren't true, gave you false vocabulary, told you that you were the problem. That's what DARVO is, right? You're the problem. But in fact, actually, you're not. And so, each day, you begin your story again. It's the work of writing and rewriting the narrative of you. PHIL MONROE  12:31 Again, this can sound very egocentric, but it is the job actually, that God gave you. And he gave Adam and Eve the job of naming things as they were. He gives this to you too, to name things, and to know who you are. So, no matter all the things that we're saying here this weekend, and the things that might be helpful to you, don't forget these things – take care of you, find ground and stability, and keep on with the naming of things as they are. And starting your story again. It has not ended, there is a chapter that you're in. And we don't know how that chapter is going to end. But we look for it with compassion, and curiosity. PHIL MONROE  13:17 Now, these are the things that we want to do. But there are some barriers and boundaries that can get in the way, right? And some of those come from us, and some of those come from other people. So, I want to name these so that you have some thoughts about what are the things that could get in the way of my recovery of this journey and sort of take me down the wrong path? And so, let's name a few of these myths. PHIL MONROE  13:43 The first myth that I want to highlight is that we have some unhelpful views on what healing actually is. Right? And one of those unhelpful views is that healing should happen, and it should be all done and in the past, and that there should be no scars and no impacts in the future. I hear this over and over from my clients from other people who wonder, why is it that I still have triggers? You know, something happened today. I got a phone call. I got an email from somebody from my past, and I didn't know what was in it, and I had that reaction. Carson mentioned this morning, something can happen, and he might spend a few hours being unable to work, he's is transported to some previous experience. This, my friends, is part of the scars that we bear. It doesn't mean it will always happen or at the same level of intensity. But you are changed. Imagine this you are an elite athlete, and you have a career at that level. and you get a knee injury. Some of us might get a knee injury, and we might get it repaired and we get back out there and we're playing again. But we're probably not playing with the same vigor and vim that we used to have, we have to do it differently. Other of us, the knee injury is so severe that it's career-ending for being an elite athlete, and we have to navigate into other careers, other identities, right? So, one of the myths that we carry though is I should be healed, I shouldn't be bothered, and I should be able to talk about trauma without having a reaction. My friends, this is not going to happen. You know things that you can't unknow. In fact, if you did unknow them, you might be at greater risk to be harmed again. These are part of the treasures in dark places. And you bring those scars with you in your body. So, check with yourself. Do I have somewhat helpful views about what healing is? Let me add to these unhelpful views of healings. Healing means no grief. I'm going to tell you that grief and joy can commingle. Grief and happiness can commingle, grief and healing will commingle. A loss is a loss is a loss. Most of you in the stories I've heard have lost community. And when you come to certain times of the year, certain church traditions, certain things like this, you feel that grief deeply. That is not a sign that you haven't healed. It's a sign that you have grief and grief needs space to breathe. So again, watch about some of these unhelpful views of healing. PHIL MONROE  13:46 How about another unhelpful view of healing? My faith should be exactly the same as it was. My friends, your faith is different. Read the Psalms, you will see the psalmist contending with things. I used to go out in front of the procession Psalm 42. In the procession, I used to be out at the front leading the way to worship. And you can see in the Psalm he's saying, Not only am I not leading the way, but I have people accusing me and attacking me on the process. Where are you God? Well, this psalmist has a new worship tradition, lament. And lament is just as active and real and God-oriented as whatever great worship song you used to sing in a large community. Your faith has been changed, maybe for the better. But with scars and grief, but healing does not mean it looks like it used to. PHIL MONROE  17:45 And lastly, one more myth about our healing is we sometimes slow our healing down when we fall prey to the belief that God wants me to suffer so that he could show me his goodness. Unfortunately, we hear all that outside. But we also sometimes take this in. And I think there's some part of us that wants like, there's got to be meaning here. If I can just know that something good that God is giving me is coming, then I can tolerate all this. And I'm telling you, God's heart is broken and angry for what you're going through. He is enraged by it. And he says in Malachi 4, that you will be like calves leaping coming out of the stall on the ashes of those oppressors. That's going to happen. The belief that somehow the suffering that you're going through is God's wonderful plan for your life, is damaging. Now will good things come out of hard things? They often do, and many of you are testaments to that. The fact that you're here is a testament to that. PHIL MONROE  19:02 So, there are some of the myths. Let me talk about some of the red flags that can get in the way of our healing journey as well. Very similar to that if you have guides and helpers who want to make everything in your life spiritual, everything happening having a spiritual answer to it, that's all wrapped up with a bow, guess what? Run! Job had friends like this. Job had friends like this and look at what God has to say about them at the end of that book. So, when you have guides that are wanting to make everything spiritual and give a nice happily ever after ending to that, then that might not be the right person for you. Coupled with that, when you articulate things about your faith that they don't like, how do they respond? Do they want to correct you? fix it? challenge you? Not everything I say about my faith is correct, something a should be challenged. Maybe you're hearing some now, but how they challenge that matters, right? When you feel like you're not allowed to think something, believe something, feel something, that's a sign this person might not be the right person for you. PHIL MONROE  20:18 Another red flag, how focused are they on the techniques, the new technology? We'll talk about that in a minute about the various counseling models, but how focused they are on doing stuff to you? If somebody seems way too interested in doing some new thing they learn to you, maybe that might not be the right person for you. And if you resist that, or you are flooded by what they're doing, you are overwhelmed by it, do they notice? does it matter to them? You know, as a therapist, I can tell you, I've made a lot of mistakes in my career. Hopefully, I can see that they're happening, or I'm told afterwards, and we have a corrective moment. Whereas I become the student again and learn what helps them. So, when somebody is doing something to you, or with you in a session, or telling you something and you're not responding well to it, does it matter to them? Are they curious about you? Do they have compassion? Or are they irritable, defensive, explaining, talking too much, telling you why what they're doing is actually the right thing, and that you should be thankful? These are signs that you might not have the right person. Along with that, is there a pressure to progress? Why aren't you getting better faster, so that I can, as a therapist feel better about myself? Unfortunately, I love therapists, I am one I've been one for a long time, I supervise a bunch of great therapists. But I can tell you that not all of us are in this for the right reasons. And you can see that when somebody needs their clients to get better, faster, so that they feel better. How much do they talk about themselves? another red flag. If at the end of the session, you didn't get to talk about the most important things that you came to talk about, that's something you want to talk to them about, and see if they're open to changing how they do things. PHIL MONROE  22:24 And finally, last red flag, boundary crossings. You know, I've talked to many victims who are being helped by someone. And then they're also then telling me oh, and by the way, I'm managing their books, I'm helping to write their books, I am helping in their practice, I am doing things. We call that boundary crossings. Look, therapists are people too, and they need friends, but not you. You need friends who aren't your therapist. So here are some red flags, some myths that get into the way of their healing. PHIL MONROE  23:12 So, let's move at this point into talking a little bit more about some of the essential items that you do need. We gave three hooks at the beginning. remember? taking care of your body, right, the first one second one, finding ground and stability, and meaning making, rewriting your story again and again. Now let's flesh that out a little bit. What will that look like? And as we end, at the end of this, we'll be talking about some of those models that might be used. But again, the focus is not so much on the models, but the DNA, the kinds of things that show up in a particular form of therapy and healing activity. Like I said, I was going to repeat this – compassion and curiosity is an essential item that you take on this journey. I want to ask you, think for a moment, when you're struggling, and then if you're not traumatized, you love somebody who is, and you see them struggling. How often do you hear self-critical language come out of their mouth? What do you feel when you say those things? Defeated? discouraged? ashamed? hopeless? It's interesting that we go there. It's understandable that we go there. Because that's the message that we are often given either implicitly or explicitly that you're the problem. I said this last year here that when we are traumatized, we have two enduring questions that we ask over and over again, why? and how do I get out of this hell? And unfortunately when we're traumatized, we come to the same answer for both questions, why? Because there's something wrong with me. And how do I get out of this hell? And why am I not getting out of it? Because there's something wrong with me. Right? So, compassion and curiosity need to be your friends. How can you begin to encourage that? Plant those seeds, ask your friends to look for that as well. They don't need to give you long lectures about it. They just need to help you identify what is true about you. What is true about your body? What helps you feel just a little bit better? When you're feeling overwhelmed by trauma, nothing feels like it will help you feel better. When I was in the throes of my biggest spasms, nothing seemed to help. But you know what? small movements did, and I had to accept that, you know what? it really is getting a little bit better. How about for you? What are those little things that only made me make it better 5%? Can you do it? Can you do it again? And can you begin to make that list of things that care for you? Maybe for you it's some music. Maybe for you, it's just going outside and looking at a leaf. What helps you just a little bit? PHIL MONROE  26:27 Compassion and curiosity are necessary. It means not beating yourself up during or after something happened. Any more than you'd beat yourself up for having a migraine or back injury. Right? It's exhausting to do this work. And it's harder when other people around us are encouraging us to think less of ourselves. So, part of your compassion and curiosity may be distancing from some of those voices. Second thing you need with you on this journey is community. That's been said multiple times. And I agree with LoriAnne Thompson as well that you also need a community outside of social media and digital community. There is some good in that community, as also we see lots of bad. Sometimes we feel heard and understood, we read somebody else's story, and that helps us understand something about ourselves. That's good. But that needs to be highly limited. You need real people that you can see who you can touch if you want to and allow them to touch you if you want them to. And who will listen to you say the same story, like Carson said, hundreds of times. You need this community. These are people who are committed to listening, rather than talking, cheerleader more than coach, right? Together, you and that community are going to be looking for life outside of trauma. That means you're going for a walk together, that means you're taking in a play, that means you're listening to something, you're exploring some creative arts. This community is essential. No one heals alone. You weren't designed to be alone, and the damage was done in community. So, you're going to need to find it. But it might be a community of two, rather than the big community that we have lost, right? PHIL MONROE  28:28 Find a therapist and a professional. Thank you, LoriAnne, for saying that. I do believe in licensed mental health professionals. I also know that those people aren't always the right for you. So, find someone who will be your guide who goes at your pace. Your pace is the most essential thing that matters here, not their pace. If you're going too fast, they may ask you to slow down. And I love the image that you gave us, the slow down. But maybe we could say it a little quieter a little bit more gently. It's okay to slow down. We want to get to the end really quickly. But oftentimes we cannot, but your pace matters. When you ask to slow down or not do something, how do they respond? Do they pressure you? Do they withdraw? Right? Do they give you too many words explaining themselves? Or are they curious about what's happening in you right now and what might help right now? And one more thing about that professional. If you notice that they label your resistance and your reticence and your tendency is not to do something as refusal as a bad thing resistance, this is a concern. Your resistance is part of your healing. You see, trauma takes your voice and your power away from you. And you learning to use it and your no is essential. Maybe later you'll say yes to something that you said No today, it doesn't matter. So, watch out if your professional labels you as a resistor. Take that as a badge of goodness and find someone else. PHIL MONROE  30:25 Two more little points here before we talk about models, but one limit yourself to others exposure, others trauma. We've had a lot of exposure to different trauma here. This is good for weekend, it's not good for everyday life. With a little bit tongue-in-cheek, sometimes you might not want to read Julie's next post. You know, it's really good, somebody needs to read it, many people need to read it, but you might not need to read it today. When we listen to other people's pain, it triggers our own reactions. And then we need to take care of ourselves. So, find your right pace and the right amount. And finally, finding life outside of trauma means finding all the opposites to trauma and making sure they're in your life. If you had chaos, find order. If you had ugliness find beauty. If you had silence, find voice, right? What are the opposites that you need to have in your life on a regular basis? PHIL MONROE  31:25 So, with that, let me take the last few minutes to talk about these various models. If you have thought about going to see a therapist, you've probably heard of all sorts of different models and ways of treating trauma. Right? You might have heard things about the difference between licensed and unlicensed biblical counseling, Christian counseling. You might have had things that are focused on I don't know cognitive-behavior therapy, trauma-focused cognitive behavior therapy, DBT dialectical behavior therapy, prolonged exposure PE, EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, tapping, CPT, cognitive processing, brain spotting, narrative exposure therapy or NET, ACT, EMDR PFA, debriefing, somatic psychotherapies, neurofeedback. Or if you're really on the cutting edge, you're hearing all about ketamine, or transcranial brain stimulation, right? Acupressure, yoga, art, exercise, the list is long. And it's overwhelming and confusing to those of us who are just looking for something to help. With this long list, you probably hear people said, This one here was a miracle for me. I'm so much better. And at the same time, you probably heard someone else say that same one didn't work for me. It leaves us confused, doesn't it? wondering, what can we do? Well, you can do a lot of work on Google, I'm not going to do that here. Some of them have a lot more scientific efficacy behind them. I will also warn you that sometimes when you get a disciple of a particular model, they promise a whole lot more than the original creators and the researchers of it did. So, watch out for somebody who has one single thing that will solve all your problems. It probably won't. PHIL MONROE  33:15 What do you need to see? And how might you process the information to find the right person? The first thing I want to say to you is interview your therapist. If you don't have one, and you're going to find one, interview them. Take that first session and make sure you have time to ask them questions or even before the first one. Ask them about what model do they approach? How do they deal with the different kinds of trauma out there? Who do they read? Who do they look for to help educate them? That doesn't mean they are as good as those people they read, but it means something to you about what kind of background do they have? What do they know? And if they get resistant to you asking these questions, thank them and find someone else. PHIL MONROE  34:04 When you get into a treatment, here are some things that you might see in all of those ones that I listed, that are essential to be there. A significant focus on grounding, calming, stabilizing. This is not just something you do in the first couple of sessions, and then move on to the deep dark part of your stories. It is something that needs to be a part of every session you do. And in fact, if you have someone who wants to get into your trauma story, and leaves you right up to the 59th Minute of a 60-minute session, and let you go out bleeding, so to speak, and not giving you time to recover in that session, that's also a little bit problematic on our end, right? So, in your sessions you should see things that are about grounding and calming, and finding things that work for you. Obviously, there will be some exposure to the trauma story, right? And when that happens, do they leave you triggered, and distressed and overwhelmed? Or do they bring you back to the surface and back to the present in a way that helps you calm yourself again? There will be a narrative focus about who are you? Who is God? Who is the world? What are your strengths? things like that. There'll be grief work. These are all parts of almost every one of these therapies that you have. PHIL MONROE  35:31 But most important, not the model, but the interactions that you have with this therapist. Do you, at the end of the session, feel heard? Do you at the end of the session feel a little bit understood? Did you talk about the things that were important to you? Do you feel a growing sense of trust, even while you're afraid of trusting again? Those are the messages that you want to listen to in your own body. Your therapist can't do your healing for you. And they can't know always how much pain you're in. So, if you feel like this is not something we can talk about in the session, that could be a problem. So, look at those interactions that you're having with them. Do they judge you? Do they get angry with you? dissatisfied with your resistance? Or do they actually take joy in saying this is great, I'm so glad you're speaking up? What would work for you now? PHIL MONROE  36:41 Friends, this journey that you're on, the one that you never wanted to be on, is here in front of us, you're not going to go back to your old way of life. There'll come a day when you'll be glad for that. But right now, it might be hard. It's going to take time. This is your grief. But journeys do also bring us to new friends, bring us to new vistas, to new observations, to seeing a little bit of our aliveness in a new way. I think you heard that from Carson and LoriAnne capture that snapshot. You know, Psalm 19 tells us, the heavens declare the glory of God, the sky's display his craftsmanship. The psalmist is saying creation reminds me of God's goodness. In fact, it says that they speak without words and their message is clear. Creation. You are God's creation. You speak a message even when you don't speak,. Your presence here speaks that message. Never forget. And never let anybody else tell you anything else. But you declare the glory of God, even when you're in a pool of your own tears. Julie Roys  38:02 What an affirming message and that's so true. So often when we've experienced trauma, we feel broken and damaged. And we are but so was our Savior. And our brokenness doesn't make us any less beautiful in some ways, especially as God begins to heal what's broken. Those wounds in our history become part of what's especially beautiful about us. Well, again, that message is from our last RESTORE conference, and we'll be announcing the next RESTORE soon. So be listening for that. And as I'm sure you're aware, many groups charge for conference talks like the one you just heard, but we've decided to make them available free of charge because we believe the content is so necessary for the restoration and health of the church. Yet producing these videos costs money as did bringing in experts to speak at RESTORE. So, if you appreciate this ministry, would you please help us out by donating to help us offset these costs to give just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won't miss any of these episodes. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Think about what it means when applied to a pastor's role in a church. What about the priesthood of all believers? And where is Jesus in that equation? In this edition of The Roys Report, veteran church planter and pastor, Lance Ford, challenges popular views of leadership, showing how they're the opposite of what Scripture teaches. In the Body of Christ, the pastor is not the head; Jesus is! In 2012, Lance Ford's landmark work UnLeader exposed how unbiblical models of leadership have become an obsession in the church. Now The Atlas Factor, which is about shifting leadership onto the shoulders of Jesus, serves as a sequel to that book. One of the most eye-opening truths of The Atlas Factor is that leadership, when presented as a key to organizational success, is a relatively new concept. The multi-billion-dollar industry built around teaching and training people in leadership—in both the corporate world and the church—has emerged only within the past 40 to 50 years. And this model of leadership didn't come from Scripture; it came from the world. Lance was featured in a recent podcast with his message from the Restore Conference titled, “It's the System, Stupid.” If you caught that message, then you heard a preview of what Lance and Julie delve into in-depth in this podcast. Lance's prophetic message is a clarion call to the church to return to Jesus' way of doing things—or continue to face disastrous consequences. Guests Lance Ford Lance Ford is an author, church planter, coach, and consultant who has designed unique training systems currently being used by networks, seminaries, and leaders throughout the world. He has written several books including The Atlas Factor, UnLeader, The Missional Quest, and The Starfish and the Spirit. Lance holds a master's degree in Global Leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary. Learn more at LanceFordBooks.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSLANCE FORD, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Certainly, great leaders can make a big difference in the success of an organization. But think about what that line applied to the church really means. Does everything rise or fall on the pastor? What about the priesthood of all believers? What about the body of Christ, where each member plays a vital role? And most importantly, what about Jesus? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is Lance Ford, who spent decades planting and pastoring churches. And recently we published his talk from the RESTORE conference where he argued that so many of the scandals and issues that we see in the church today stem from our toxic model of leadership. Well, today you’re in for a treat, because Lance is joining me to discuss his new book, The Atlas Factor. And this book eviscerates the conventional wisdom that leadership is everything. In fact, one of the most eye-opening things I learned in this book is that leadership is a relatively new concept. Sure, there have always been people who lead and manage organizations. But leadership as this thing that’s crucial to the success of organizations is relatively new. And certainly, the industry that’s been built around teaching and training people in leadership in both the corporate world and the church is super new, like within the past 40 to 50 years. But I think the pressing question, especially in the church concerns whether these notions of leadership we’re training pastors to follow are actually biblical. And if they’re not, what’s the alternative? We’ll dig into those questions in just a minute.   Julie Roys  01:46 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity, to check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:49 Well, again, joining me is Lance Ford, a church planter, coach, and consultant who spent decades pastoring and planting churches. And out of that experience and biblical study, he’s designed unique training systems that are being used by seminaries, church networks, and leaders throughout the world. Lance is also the author of several books, including one of my favorites called Unleader. This book exposes the obsession in the church to unbiblical models of leadership. It’s fantastic and eye opening. And Lance’s latest book, The Atlas Factor, is essentially a sequel to Unleader, and it’s quickly become one of my favorites as well. So, Lance, thanks so much for joining me. I’m really, really looking forward to our discussion.   LANCE FORD  03:29 It’s always one of my favorite things to do is visit with you, Julie.   Julie Roys  03:32 I’m glad to hear that. And I should mention that you also are a recent addition to The Roys Report board. So, we’re pretty excited about that. But I know you spoke at RESTORE and I heard from so so many people, but our board as well, just saying, hey, we need to get this guy on our board. So just really, really glad for all the wisdom that you’re going to bring to the board. So, thanks for being willing to do that.   LANCE FORD  03:55 Well, it’s a huge honor to be invited to be a part of y’all. The boardroom didn’t get smarter because I showed up it probably got a little dumber When I joined.   Julie Roys  04:04 I do not believe that. But as I mentioned, you spoke at RESTORE and gave a great talk on toxic leadership and  our obsession with it and probably had the best line of the entire conference I have to say, which became the title of the podcast that we put out with your talk, which is, It’s the System, Stupid! Just briefly for those who didn’t hear your talk, which if you didn’t hear Lance’s talk, it’s the System, Stupid!, I think it was like back in mid-December, we published that. Go back and listen to his talk. It is so so good. But talk about what you meant by that, that it’s the system stupid.   LANCE FORD  04:41 I think probably Julie one day I was probably somewhere along the midst of listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill  podcast, and I was just thinking, they just keep talking about symptoms, symptoms. They never get to the solution, and I just said it out loud. It’s the system stupid. And it reminded me, James Carville’s deal with Clinton. It’s the economy stupid. So that’s kind of where that came from is that all these problems that we have are downstream from a messed-up system. And you can’t just deal with the symptoms and try to throw drugs at the symptoms. You have to bandage the wounds, pouring the oil on the wine, that’s necessary to say the least. Well, let’s do some preventative medicine. Let’s go back to the headwaters of this thing and try to nip some of this stuff in the bud. And it just seems that the answer almost every time, especially internally, from the groups that are in the midst of these falls and these breakdowns in leadership, usually their answer is, well, we just need better accountability. But it’s the same type of what they call accountability. So rare is it that when you hear a group say, well, we need new leadership, they don’t mean they need new leadership systems. They mean, we need a new hero leader.   Julie Roys  06:05 Yeah. Oh, exactly. I mean, I remember when Rick Warren was stepping down. And of course, there’s all sorts of issues with Andy Wood, who was picked as his successor. And we’ve published many articles on how he apparently is a horribly abusive leader. But he’s now in that position. And when I heard the language, though, it was like we need to find a successor for Rick. And I thought, really, who can be the successor to Rick Warren, and who is capable of being in a position over so many churches and having so many people following you? And I sit there and wonder, because there’s this idea that there’s going to be this really good, noble, full of integrity leader that can handle those kinds of pressures. And I sit there, and I look at that, and I’m like, I don’t know that I can handle that. That’s an awful lot to shoulder. And I think that really is at the root of what you’re talking about in this book, The Atlas Factor. The metaphor is great of you know, Atlas with the weight of the world on his shoulders. But essentially, that’s what we’ve set up leaders to be, to be Atlas, to do the impossible, and then we’re surprised when they fail. Here’s a quote that’s very early in your book from the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, they’re irrefutable.   LANCE FORD  07:15 Be careful, Julie.   Julie Roys  07:17 But the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership is this quote from LeRoy Eims, “a leader is one who sees more than others see, who sees further than others see, and who sees before others do.” And then there’s the quote that I said at the beginning of the podcast, that “everything rises or falls on leadership.” It’s almost like we have made these men into gods; talk about that whole dynamic and what it’s doing to pastors.   LANCE FORD  07:47 The thing about the typical the prevailing leadership system in the overwhelming majority of churches today, it puts a weight up on the senior, and I might as well just say senior guy, cuz 99% of them are guys. But there are a few women in senior leadership positions, but just the job description, and then even the unwritten expectations that are placed upon them. I know I was a pastor for well over 20 years and was a church planter and a senior pastor for 10 years. So, if you just look at the job description, you’re basically the CEO. In fact, some of them call themselves CEOs, you’re the face of the church, the organization, you’re the top fundraiser, you are the top theologian, you’re supposed to be a marriage expert, a family expert, a child rearer. I mean, just go on and on and by the way, you need to give 45 to 50 fantastic talks a year too. No one’s built for that. And certainly when you go to the New Testament of any description of any type of leadership in the church, you don’t see that. In fact, Paul mentioned several times that he wasn’t even a good speaker. So, it’s a burden. And so that created the metaphor for The Atlas Factor for the book. It’s the weight of the world. It’s like Atlas, and a lot of people look at Atlas and they go, he was this hero. No, that was a punishment, Zeus gave him the punishment of having to hold the weight of the world on his shoulders. It’s out of order. It’s a misalignment. So, a lot of these pastors are victims too; Even the ones that don’t abuse, they’re being abused by this system of expectations, this fault system of leadership as it’s been cast upon them. And then of course, the ones as you said, that are narcissistic, have the tendencies, then they take that power, and then they become the abusers. And basically, then they take that weight, and they place it up on the shoulders of their staff or the volunteers and church members, and then they crush others with that weight.   Julie Roys  09:49 I have heard that so much from these churches where there is this big celebrity pastor, and they have to put on the big show and it’s really impossible to do. I mean, I have I always said, When my husband and I used to be youth pastors and we always said, The World entertains better than we do. So, if you want to be entertained, like go see a movie, go to all those things, but in the church, we’re gonna focus on worship and prayer and discipleship and Bible study. That’s what we do. But I think we’ve gotten away from that. And we’ve certainly gotten to this model where man we have to put on the show every week, and it’s crushing. And the staffs are getting crushed too. You quote this in your book that there’s a 2021 Barna study, 38% of pastors say they’ve considered quitting within the past year. And then if you look at pastors who are just 45 or younger, that jumps to 46%. So, I mean, if this plays out, we’re looking at a crisis in the church, we’re not going to have pastors willing to take these jobs.   LANCE FORD  10:45 Yeah well, there’s some stats that came out, I forget if it was Barna or who it was a couple of weeks ago. But it said that right now, currently, between four and 5000 pastors a month, are leaving the ministry. So you’re talking about a huge under the watermark in the boat of the church right now. So not only are people leaving the church, but you’ve got pastors leaving the church. So, it is a crisis, as you said.   Julie Roys  11:09 Although, I have to say at the same time, like I’m in this small house church, and he said recently, if we get a pastor, I’m gone. I’m gone. I mean, I think we’re a unique group, because there’s some pretty highly competent, mature Christians in there. So, you kind of have more leaders than you know what to do with. So, God help the pastor that would come in and try to pastor that. But yeah, I think there is sort of a suspicion about pastors. But really, because I think exactly what you’re talking about in this book is that we have merged this idea of leadership that really is worldly based with, we’ve kind of baptized it in Christian lingo. So that now so many people think that leadership, the way it’s being taught, you know, by people who claim they’re Christian, so that, you know, this must be biblical, is biblical. But leadership, it’s not really talked about very much in Scripture is it?   LANCE FORD  12:03 It’s not that there’s not leaders in Scripture, there’s leaders all throughout Scripture, but the leadership system as we know it today, in fact, leader or leadership is not even mentioned. It’s like, a half a dozen times in the entire New Testament. And it’s not spoken favorably, most of those times. But if you really get down to it, and I do try to make a delineation between attorney leader in leadership, because it’s become such a in our nomenclature today, but it’s a real new term. I’ve said that before some well-known authors that immediately react, and just like push back. Okay, first off, definitely, there’s been leadership forever. And it’s been studied. I mean, the Chinese going back to the 1300s. I mean, you can look at Plato and Machiavelli and others that studied leadership, but not leadership as we know it today. And what got me on this was just doing some research on it. And I just got curious one day and thought, Well, I’m gonna look up the word leadership. And I went to my old 1955 Oxford Dictionary, which is probably the best because it gives the evolution of words. And it wasn’t even defined there. I couldn’t even find the term and a definition, I finally found at one time in about a seven- or eight-word definition for the word leader, but then it didn’t even define leadership. That pushed me back further, you start reverse engineering, you know, how you are doing research, and I found the 1915 Webster dictionary. The word leadership was not even in there. And that really took me down a rabbit hole of finding out after just doing a couple of years of research, in searching even secular scholars that had done research on the word leadership and come to find out you couldn’t even find the word leadership until the mid-19th century. So, you’re not finding publications anywhere that mentioned it until the early 1900s. Even the term. Now the reason I say that, and it should stand out to us as a stark contrast, because leadership is an $87 billion dollar industry today. 87 billion, I mean, that’s more than entertainment, media and everything put together. So, it’s a huge thing that’s evolved over the last 100 years. And it didn’t even really start entering in the church, which is a gigantic thing in the church now, it didn’t even start entering into the church until I would say the 1970s. Because you can’t even find a dozen books with the term leadership in the title, even in the 1960s. So, it’s a really new thing. And now, and I say it as its defined, because you could interchange the word management and you’d be just fine because that’s really what it is. It’s management theory. It goes back to Peter Drucker 1966, his famous book, The Effective Executive. There were some significant church growth leaders took that book, they parlayed it into the Church Growth Movement because some leaders such as Robert Schuller, for instance, with Crystal Cathedral, Robert Schuller doesn’t get enough if you want to call it credit or blame for really being the biggest shaper of what we have today. And my research bears this out. You can track Bill Hybels in Willow Creek, they go right back to Schuler, although they scrubbed a lot of that from their history, because Schuler became so controversial that they just didn’t want to be associated with him. Rick Warren was a disciple of Schuler. Schuler was a disciple of Norman Vincent Peale. That’s where he got all of his positive thinking and everything. But then all of them went to Peter Drucker to get the management systems. And then Bob Buford, who created Leadership Network, which a lot of people, the listeners would say, I’ve never heard of a guy named Bob Buford. Well, he was way behind the scenes. But he was hugely shaping of what we have today with Leadership Network and funded and raised up and platformed and helped develop a lot of those leaders such as Hybels and Warren and others. And then a lot of the newer leaders that lead these prevailing, what I call Neo attractional churches today, their heritage, the family tree goes straight back to Peter Drucker and these management systems. And these management systems just conflict with what Jesus said Matthew 20, of the Gentiles, or the world systems; it’s a metaphor, he where if he was in the Old Testament would have said, The Babylonians or the Egyptians. But when he says the Gentiles practice dominating one another, or lorded over one another, it will not be this way among you. But the first will be last, the greatest will be the servant, which basically was pushing back against power, and against dominating one another in any system in his kingdom. But that’s the very thing that we have today. And it goes right back to management systems that we imported straight into the church.   Julie Roys  17:06 And you alluded to this, that we don’t see lead or leader much in Scripture. You write, and this was in Unleader as well, and this just blew me away, that we see the word disciple 260 times, as opposed to leader. Leader, I think is mentioned like seven times. So, it’s a 37:1 ratio. We used to think of the pastor as the shepherd. Even when I was a kid, that was really the prevailing metaphor was that our pastor was the shepherd, that changed. And I remember even when I was at Willow Creek because my husband and I spent several years there. And I just remember Hybels talking about how they had found shepherds to do the shepherding within the church, because he didn’t do it. It was kind of like, yeah, they have been put in as pastors, but they’re really more Shepherd. So, we’re putting them over here to let them Shepherd. Meanwhile, I’ll do the pastor thing, which is being the great orator and charismatic leader, and all that. And that became our model for pastor and then of course, Bill Hybels brought in so many worldly leadership. In fact, if you go and read about the Global Leadership Summit, like I’ve read some of the articles that were published in secular publications saying, Man, this is like the best business school that’s out there, like, I know, it’s at a church, but this is like, this is a great business school. Everybody in business, whether you’re a Christian or not, whatever you profess, just go to this really good. And we love that as Christians, because we constantly were seeking the world’s affirmation, which is really sad. Like we wanted that credibility in the church. So again, you’re putting language into things I felt for so long, and that the research in your book, you even go back farther, and I found some of this stuff that gave birth to our modern leadership movement was fascinating. And you start with 1840s, 1900, around there with this thing called Great Man theory. Describe what this is, and how it’s impacted our view of leadership today.   LANCE FORD  19:01 Great Man theory was the prevailing ideology of where great leaders came from. That was the term that they used. And so, when you go back and you look at even, I was able to even trace back and find some of the speaking topics for some conventions, conferences that were taking place back in the 1920s and 1930s. And so Great Man theory was basically the idea that leaders are born, they’re not made. And so, you’re gonna think about Teddy Roosevelt, you’re gonna think about Abraham Lincoln, Napoleon, people like this, that just have this ability to lead, and you can’t make it. So that that would that would mean there’s a real limitation if you don’t happen to have a great man walk into the room, you know. So, then they started studying the traits of the great man and that about 20 years after Great Man theory was the prevailing theory. Then by the 1930s, 1940s was what was called Trait Theory, and they basically were studying the traits of the great man and saying, Well, maybe it’s possible that we can teach these traits, we can mimic these traits, and we can actually make great leaders. That’s how it started evolving. Then there became for a while it became what was called Group theory, which they said, well, leadership really is an effect upon a group of people. They actually started getting a little closer to what was right about what  I would call leadership, that leadership is a fruit product. It’s not a position, I would say a faithfully following Jesus as a servant. But then they moved away from the group theory, and that really went back into a person at the top. And then Management theory, by the 1950s, to corporate America, and the Industrial Revolution had matured and was getting old by that time. By that time, it really became Management theory. And then we replaced it with the word leadership. And like you said, earlier, Julie, I was just reflecting a while back and thinking, you know, when I was growing up, if you walked into a Denny’s, there were no Starbucks back then. So, if you walk through a breakfast place, and let’s say that there was and we used to have in small towns, they would call it the Ministerial Alliance. And pastors of local churches that actually liked each other, and they get together about once a month. So if you were to see a group of those guys sitting around, have a breakfast together, I say, 1980. I’ll guarantee you; the word leader and leadership would not even been uttered at that table while they’re having breakfast. It wouldn’t even come into their mind. They might have called themselves pastors or shepherds, they probably call themselves ministers. And certainly, the people from the local community sitting around would look over and said, Oh, yeah, that’s the ministers. They wouldn’t say that’s the leaders. That’s the leaders of the faith community. It just wasn’t in their thinking, right? Because the word Minister means servant, but it’s washed out today. And so, I mean, who wants to be a servant? You want to be a leader. This was the problem with the disciples of Jesus, and they watched him be a servant, and he still had to, you know, thump upside of the head, more than one occasion.   Julie Roys  22:20 I want to read a section of your book because I think it really crystallizes the moment that we’re living in right now. You write, “The industrial leadership approach to church leadership caused us to abandon the understanding of the church as a body and turn to a view of the church as a machine. Our language and titles changed as we veered away from the code of the New Testament in Jesus. It became normal to hear terms and titles such as strategic initiative, ROI, return on investment scale, engineering, management, leader, executive, superior, replace biblical language, such as steward, disciple, co-laborers, servant, minister, elder, brothers and sisters, et cetera. Noncompetes, and NDAs, and  HR became leverage points in place of loving your brother, blessing those you believed were your enemy and letting your Yes be Yes and your No be No.” Bingo. Right there. I mean, I talk a lot about the Evangelical industrial complex. And of course, that gets into the money and everything that’s involved. But it’s also once you become a corporation, you’ve got to manage that image. And that is the situation that we’re in. I’m guessing some people who have been really, really schooled in this, because I mean, leadership is everywhere, right? I mean, from the time kids are like teenagers, even maybe younger, in our church, we’re training them to be leaders. But it does beg the question, and I’m sure people are wondering right now is if everything doesn’t rise or fall on leadership, and what does it rise or fall on?   LANCE FORD  23:47 I believe it rises or falls on the headship of Jesus. And I believe that’s where we land on the problem of what’s happened in the church. That’s the other part of the metaphor for this book, The Atlas Factor was. I had written something one day, about three years ago on Facebook or X, it was Twitter then; we had the pretty little blue bird. But I just said something about leadership in the church being misaligned with the headship of Jesus, and the body. Had a buddy that reposted that and then his chiropractor made a comment. And he said, Yeah, that’s like subluxation with the C-1 and the C-2 vertebra in the body. Then he said something that really got my attention. He said, Yeah, when you have a problem with the Atlas vertebra, and the Axis vertebra, it misaligns the body with the head. And I was like, Whoa, that really got my attention because I’ve been playing around with this Atlas metaphor before. And little did I know, and you know, this is as a journalist and a researcher, then it sends me down into this wormhole. I ended up reading three or four books in chiropractic.   Julie Roys  24:57 You sound like my husband. My husband would do that. Give me the Cliff Notes honey.   LANCE FORD  25:02 My wife’s like land it, land it. Yeah, but it was fascinating Julie because he said C-1, the first vertebra is called the Atlas. So, in fact, this particular doctor had written a little book, a real tiny little pamphlet size book called, It Just Makes Sense. Well come to find out there’s a certain amount of chiropractors, it’s a small percentage of chiropractors that just practice, they call it upper cervical care. And so, they only focus on the two top vertebra, because they’re convinced that if you line those up, everything below is going to come in order and align. In fact, they’ve got some pretty large claims of incredible maladies that get healed and come into order when the body, the neurological system starts functioning like it should. In fact, my buddy that had posted this, his chiropractor, so my buddy has a very rare form of cancer. And I forget what it’s called, but it should not kill him. But he’s had it for several years. And so, he’s always having to watch his T counts and everything. And under Dr. Weller’s care, his numbers have totally come in order. And that’s been going on for about four or five years now. So, it’s really amazing. So, one of the quotes that he said, and I did quote it in Atlas, so that Atlas vertebra, that’s where the brain stem sits into. So, he’s talking about the relationship between the head and the body. And he says, there’s that extra something inside each and every one of us that gives life; the inborn, innate intelligence knows what to do and how to do it. The intelligence that came from our Creator travels in and through your nervous system, which is commonly referred to as the neurological system. Neuro logic or intelligence within the nerve, the neurological communication between the brain and the body through the brainstem is imperative for allowing the body the best ability to function at its optimum. We believe that the body does not need any assistance, just no interference in its functioning. When you apply that to what Paul said about the body of Christ, and the relationship to the head, which he really goes in depth in Ephesians 4, he mentioned the other places, but in Ephesians 4, which Ephesians. The whole book of Ephesians is scholars say this is the book for the church. And it’s not a book about leadership. Ephesians 4 is not text about leaders, it’s about the body, it’s a text, read to the body, corporately, it’s talking about the body when he says the apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher – that’s within the body. These are not professional positions. And I would say, and I know you would agree, Julie, that your house church, you guys already have at least one, you have multiple pastors there already. So, you don’t need some pro that comes in leveraging authority and power. They’re gifted. So, the body of Christ is already gifted in these functions. But the problem is, is when humans try to occupy the place of headship and playing Atlas, then it creates a disjointedness, between the Atlas vertebra and the rest of the body. And so, what happens is, we get paralyzed, we can’t move. We get all these maladies in these atrophy that sets in below the neck because somebody else has stepped in and cause misalignment with our true head Jesus. And so, I really believe that the first job of a church leader, or a pastor that wants to try to change is it’s kind of what Dr. Eddie Weller said is that we need to eliminate interference between Jesus in the body. And usually, it’s our system of leadership that’s causing the interference, and is bringing that paralysis and those maladies that go along the neckline.   Julie Roys  28:54 That’s so interesting. As you’re saying this, I’m beginning to get an image in my head of a body trying to function with just the brain. Right? And the rest of the body being literally paralyzed or just limp and not able to move. And I think about that in the church because we have made these guys at the head who communicate truth to us. I mean, most of the people come into our churches right now, they don’t know how to read the scripture for themselves and listen to the Holy Spirit themselves. They need that pastor to interpret for them what’s going on, which is scary. I remember going to one of these, you know, video, Pastor churches, and I’m like, and it had a celebrity pastor who was in from, you know, states away, who was preaching to them, telling them what to do. And I thought to myself, that guy who was preaching, nothing he said was heretical; however, he was not explicating scripture right. He was making it say things it didn’t say, and it scared me because I thought, that guy anything he says will get swallowed by this mass of people, because they don’t know they are not equipped. They are not connected to the head. They’re connected to the pastor, right? Who really functions in a godlike way with so many of these people? And I think that’s why when you see one of these falls, you see, just huge disillusionment. You know, for a lot of us, it’s been hurtful. It’s been disillusioning. Yes. But not to that foundational level, because my pastor was never my God. He was always just a man. Right? That’s all he was. And so yeah, we’d have lost that idea that really, it’s a functioning body, and all the members have to be functioning for this thing to work. And the guy at the top is not the pastor. It’s Jesus Himself, which is a radical idea, the biblical idea.   LANCE FORD  30:43 You know, the word radical and radish have the same root. Radical literally means root. So, it’s funny how that when you talk about people that are radicals, man, they’re so radical. That’s usually the people that have gone back to the roots of things that we call the radicals. It  was like the hippies back in the 70s, they were reading Mother Earth News, you know, and they’re, you know, got their gardens out the backyard, and they’re doing all this stuff, you know, are they radical? No, they’re doing what people have done for thousands of years. So sometimes that’s the hint that the people that we call the radicals may just be the ones that have tapped back into something that’s at the root of our beginnings as the church. And so that’s one of the things that when you get to this misalignment of the body, the real job description of a pastor or if you believe in those FIFO gifts, the apostle, prophet, Pastor, shepherd, and evangelists and teacher, their job description, Paul says, is to equip or resource and train and supply the saints for the work of ministry. So, it’s not to do everything, it’s not to be the chief speaker to be the end all. Really your job there, when you wake up in the morning, I don’t care what your title is, if you’re on staff at a church, no matter what your rank is, first thing you wake up in the morning and think what I need to do is how can I best resource and equip and serve the people that are around me? So, during your day, you shouldn’t be telling people what to do, you should be asking people, how can I help you? How can I serve you? What do you need youth pastor? How can I help you today to fulfill your calling? But that’s not the way it is. I mean, it’s usually everybody’s here to serve my needs. That’s leadership. That’s the system.   Julie Roys  32:37 I mean, we have a professional pastorate. So, we pay for you to do things for us.   LANCE FORD  32:42 You’re a vendor of religious goods and services, and I’m a consumer. So, give it up.   Julie Roys  32:48 Exactly. And that’s where I don’t put all the blame on the guy at the top. It’s what we’ve allowed as consumers. It’s what we’ve allowed as the body that is not doing what the Bereans did, and going back and saying, is what they’re teaching us right now, is this biblical, or is it not?   LANCE FORD  33:03 One of the things I thought about is you look at iteration or a church says today, most people are biblically illiterate. We don’t expect them to read their Bibles. We don’t. I mean, that’s why we project every scripture on screen. We don’t expect people even to bring a Bible. When you and I were growing up. I mean, people were bringing a Bible to church. I grew up spent a lot of time in the Baptist Church. every other weekend, the whole family would load up and we go spend the weekend with my grandparents about an hour away. They were Nazarene. They were in a little Nazarene church. And so, I literally spent half my time in a Nazarene church. So, I got a lot of Nazarene in me. And that little church of about 60 people and 55 of them were my kinfolks. I mean, you talk about a pastor not having a chance. Stay in line buddy because the Browns and the Fords will kick you to the curb. Anyway, it was a sweet fellowship and all my great aunts and great uncles and everything, They had the little board on the side of the pulpit that told the attendance from the week before, it told the offering. And I’m not making this up, even had a place it said Bibles present, you know, which was always funny to me, because I’ve looked back, and I thought they were trying to make a point. And those folks knew their scriptures. I mean, they knew the Bible, and they may have been misapplying it, but they still knew the Scriptures. And we just don’t have that today. We really have dumbed people down. And that’s part of the entertainment and this all comes from the secret church evolvement but if you go into the prevailing church today, if you go anywhere on a Sunday morning, most of the churches especially of any size you walk in, you don’t even know what denomination you’re in because most of them are singing the same songs. And the style is the same you’re going to go into a dark room. The ceiling is going to be black. The stage is going to be well lit depending on how much money and resource they have. It may even have some smoke machines which I call that the Shekindof. Glory, by the way,   Julie Roys  35:03 When I see the smoke machine, I am so over the top that I just I cannot I just cannot. And by the way, though, when you talked about Nazarene, this is going to warm the heart of Christine Jones, who’s one of our board members because she’s Nazarene. But I did Bible Quizzing. So, when I heard she was a Nazarene I’m like, Oh, dang! Oh, man! You know, and I am was pretty good Bible quizzer.   LANCE FORD  35:27 I bet you were.   Julie Roys  35:29 We went to Nationals a couple times. Our Bible Quizzing, my mom was our coach, but I’m telling you, I learned 100 you know, 150 verses every single year I did Bible Quizzing. I mean, that’s how I learned the scripture. But those Nazarenes they memorized the whole book. They memorized the whole thing.   LANCE FORD  35:45 I had a niece that does the Bible Quizzing in the Nazarene church, and  I don’t ever want to go toe to toe with her.   Julie Roys  35:52 But here’s the thing. Like I know Christine to this day says when they say a passage, she’s going over the passage in her mind, because it’s still there, the memory is still there of that passage. And you can’t distort something that people know. But we’re in a situation where people don’t know it., and so it creates just this fertile ground for everything to be messed up, and it’s gotten really messed up. So, you’re talking about realignment, how do we realign? Like in this situation that we’re in, how can we realign because we’ve got some major, major vertebrae out of whack?   LANCE FORD  36:24 So, you have to start off not with just looking at and saying, Well, yeah, I gotta choose a different way lady. No, you have to repent. This is an issue of repentance. Because we disobey Jesus and the word disobedient in many places. In fact, Paul uses it when he talks about your disobedience coming into a line. It means to, to hearken to not just to hear, but to listen and obey. We’ve disobeyed Jesus disobeyed Jesus, not only with our systems, but just some of those things that you mentioned, when you read the quote from the book earlier, even our what we call ourselves as leaders is disobedient to Jesus. Jesus could not have been more plain, don’t call yourself Father, don’t call yourself Teacher, don’t call yourself leader, because he says it causes you to lift yourself up above your brothers and sisters. Because he’s trying to create a peer type of a culture, a sibling culture. And this is the nomenclature that you see throughout the New Testament, co-laborer, coworker, fellow worker, is mentioned dozens of times those terms. You never see employee and boss. Because what happens is, that’s a power difference, right? It differentiates between the power, every time those words are mentioned, every time those terms and those rank-based titles are mentioned. So, the first thing a leader has to do is say I have to change the culture, I have to repent. And I have to admit this, and then I have to be willing to start changing the culture. So, I think the first thing that a leader has to do is then move into saying, I’m going to ditch the management systems. And I’m going to try to learn what it would look like if people on our team are able self-manage. And as I’m doing that, not only am I changing my titles, which that’s probably the first thing you need to do, because it will just freak everybody out. But what you do is you change your role. And so, you wake up in the morning and saying, I’m no longer going to act like I am chief, and everybody’s here to serve me. But I’m going to do what Jesus said, I’m gonna become a chief servant. I’m gonna out serve everybody here. And I’m gonna go back to the very thing that Paul said in Ephesians 4. I am going to work myself silly in helping the people around me to fulfill their calling. I’m going to do everything I can to resource them, to equip them, and just watch this rising tide lift all the boats around. So that’s the  first moves. And I always say this is when you’re looking at moving from a centralized leadership to a decentralized leadership, you can’t just wipe everything out, because then it’s just chaos and anarchy. So, you have to replace the systems with other processes and agreements. And that’s one of the things I’ve tried to write a lot about, wrote about a lot book called The Starfish in the Spirit. And in this, try to give some processes in some systems and some agreements of how you can rebuild your system into working this way. Because it doesn’t just happen in a vacuum. It’s too enormous of a change to move into it. But it has to be biblical, because that’s where the safety and that’s where the joy is. And this doesn’t mean that everything’s going to be rainbows and unicorns. There’s still stress and hard things and difficulty. I mean, Paul talked about the anxiety he had in the churches, but a lot of that was him trying to straighten stuff like this out.   Julie Roys  39:58 The book that I interviewed Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer on, Pivot, you know, is talking a lot about sort of similar things making this pivot from realizing you have a toxic culture. You guys are talking about it from the same idea, but a little different vantage points. And given, you know, he’s more of a theologian, you’re more of a boots on the ground kind of guy. But I think saying a lot of the same things. And one thing I wonder is that we’re often thinking about it in terms of like you said, we’ve got this church that needs to change. I was very interested in church planting in my 20s. And a lot of people would say that a lot of time, it takes way more energy to change an existing church than it does to grow a new one. And it’s just something I’ve been wondering, you know, out of these ashes, because what’s happening in the evangelical church right now, I mean, it is, it’s imploding, which I know is painful for everybody involved in you know, to see these kinds of implosions. But I’ve really been asking myself, Should we be putting energy into changing the existing church, or should we be saying, we just need to close some churches, we need to scrap this model? Because I mean, even so often, when you get rid of like the toxic guy at the top, it’s a toxic system throughout,  it is so hard. You have so much inertia, that to change that church is so hard. So, I know you don’t get into this really in your book, but it’s something I’ve been wrestling with. And even wondering once you do start that new thing. How can we do it differently because this is what we’ve seen modeled?   Julie Roys  40:02 What you’re touching on there is the whole wineskin issue that Jesus taught. You can’t put new wine in an old wineskin. But can you create a new wineskin for the old wine? Heard a lot of people talk about that. Which yeah, well,  maybe you can, I think is very difficult for the reasons you said. Now, two out of the last three houses that my wife and I have lived in, we built ourselves. And when I say that, I mean, we built it ourselves. I didn’t contract it. Our hands, blood and sweat, and skin. And I just kind of grew up with that, my grandpa was a carpenter. So, I kind of grew up with that.   LANCE FORD  41:31 We built one house. We didn’t do everything ourselves. But yeah, I thought, general contracting, how hard can that be?   LANCE FORD  42:14 Oh yeah, you got that lesson, then, you found out. And you promise, I will never do this again, which I said I would never do it again after the first one.   Julie Roys  42:22 Well, no, actually, I said, I learned so much by making so many stupid mistakes in that first one that I want to do it again, so that I can capitalize on the lessons learned.   LANCE FORD  42:31 Now that’s good. And it is a fun process. And it was very cathartic. This one that we built was a smaller house. And it was very cathartic. But also, we’ve rehabbed houses. And I would say as hard as it is to build from the ground up, it’s easier than rehabbing a house.   Julie Roys  42:47 Cuz you never know what you’re gonna get into.   LANCE FORD  42:49 You don’t know what’s behind that wall, you know, and you think that you know, and you peel it back, and you just discover, oh, it’s deeper, and you’re taking it down to the studs, and you get down the studs and go, Oh, the termites were here before I was here, right? All kinds of stuff. So yeah, those issues come into place. I tell you, one of the things that we’ve seen a lot of success, and I say we because I do work with a few others. I’m a part of a team that we do help churches in consulting and coaching. we talk about terms of a parallel track, just trying smaller little projects, and seeing how they go. In fact, several of the largest churches, and we’ve worked with large churches that realize that they just cannot completely turn that thing around. So, what they do is they start investing in different types of church plants, or micro churches, or whatever. And I think their hearts are good and right in that. And so, I’ve got some friends that do lead large mega churches. And I think that they are, some of them have developed some leadership systems that are closest to what I would hope to see. And I think it’s probably about as close as they can get without just killing the thing.   LANCE FORD  44:06 Our time is getting short. But there’s one term that I thought was so good when you’re talking about developing a culture of equality, and you talked about this term, I’ve never heard this this term before, but equa-potency, thank you. But yeah, explain what you mean by that, because I thought that was actually a pretty key component to what you’re talking about.   LANCE FORD  44:30 What equa-potency basically, is kind of a culture of equals. When you talk about a quality in a leadership system, it freaks a lot of people out because immediately the pushback is somebody has to be in charge. The buck has to stop somewhere. You can’t have equality, everybody’s not equal. You can just look at him. Okay, so let’s start right there. And Paul talks about this in Romans 12. In fact, Romans 12:1-2 you know, we usually start out with be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind right? So that you can prove what is the good, perfect, pleasing will of God. And we usually stop there. And so, people usually read that verse and say, Oh, that’s the verse about not being worldly, you know, don’t drink, don’t chew, don’t run around with girls that do, right? And always blame a woman, right? That was the little saying growing up. But don’t stop there, keep reading the rest of the of the text, because then he’s really going into how gifts that the Lord pours out should be functioning. And so, one of the things that he says he talks about the different gifts, in fact, he talks about people that do have a gift of administration, or what we would call leadership. And he talks about, then he says, but do it with sobriety, be sober, and then he starts talking about don’t look on your own things and be selfish. And he starts going into this whole thing about different people have different measures for their giftings. So, in any room, if you have a sizable room, and you think about just outstanding, let’s say the great men or the great women that are great into gifting or whatever. And you and I, Julie may have a similar gifting. But we can just look like I’ve got a couple of friends that are mentors of mine. And I’m thinking about one in particular. He’s been an incredible mentor in my life. And he and I have similar gifts. Mine, I can’t even touch his abilities in some of this stuff. He is just far out. Well, Paul will call that he has a greater measure of faith. It’s not faith like we think about it all. Oh yeah, he’s confident and all that. No, it’s really the term there, really iterates it’s the ability to use that gift. And some people just have that, have a greater measure. And so, Paul warns them to treat the others as equals. And so, this particular mentor in my life, he’s always treated me that way. And in the first few years, we started working together, man, I mean, there was no way I could touch what he did. But he always encouraged me genuinely, not patronizing me. But really, he just thought you never know when what the Lord wants to say or do is going to come through Lance or Jill or Rob or Steve in the room, just because I’ve got the big platform, I’m speaking as him, I can use any of them. So that’s equa-potency. So, it’s potent. So, when you get a group of people together, and you have an equal atmosphere, not meaning that everybody has the same has equal gifts, but they have equal opportunity. And so that’s really what we’re saying. It’s a culture that everybody is treated as equals to have equal opportunity, even if they don’t have the equal faith in the giftings that they have. Does that make sense?   Julie Roys  47:55 Absolutely it does. And as you’re talking about this, we do think of the people that that are incredibly gifted. And we have examples of that in scripture. But we also have probably the greatest leader, or one of the ones that we look to in the Old Testament was Moses, who couldn’t speak, had all sorts of failings. And yet God used him in amazing ways. Because he had that spiritual connection to God. He knew God, and he had a heart after God. And we have majored on the minors, right? We’ve made the gifting so important instead of the heart for God. And there’s so much in your book, we could discuss, and I would love to discuss, you get into how spiritual warfare, how that plays out in this practical steps. And so, I really encourage people, this is going to be our book for this month, for anybody who gives a donation of $30 or more, we’ll get you a copy of The Atlas Factor, just a phenomenal phenomenal book. So, if you want to do that, support our work here at The Roys report, but also get this incredible resource, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. And we can get this book in your hands. And I want to get this book as many hands as I can. Because I think it’s a paradigm shift is what you’re talking about. And you’ve been talking about it now for 11 years since you wrote your first one, Unleader. And I think there’s a lot of resistance. But the more and more we see the crash and burns, the more and more we’re going to have to say we’ve got to do it a different way. And so, I feel like you’re very much a prophetic voice when it comes to this issue. Just so grateful for it. So, Lance, thank you. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for speaking at RESTORE. Thank you for being on our board. Thanks for writing this book, The Atlas Factor. Really awesome.   Julie Roys  48:13 Always a joy, Julie, thank you.   Julie Roys  49:41 Well, again, that was Lance Ford, an experienced church planter, pastor, consultant, and author of The Atlas Factor, Shifting Leadership Onto the Shoulders of Jesus. And as we mentioned, this book releases this month, and we’re actually giving away copies of The Atlas Factor to anyone who gives a gift of $30 or more  to The Roys Report this month. Again, we don’t have any big donors or advertisers almost all the funding for The Roys Report comes from you, the people who care about exposing abuse and corruption in the church and caring for abuse victims. So, if you can please go to JJULIEROYS.COM/DONATE  and give what you’re able to this ministry. And when you give, we’ll gladly send you a copy of The Atlas Factor. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me. Hope you are blessed and encouraged.   Read more

In this enlightening conversation, Prof. Mathai explores the interconnectedness of English poetry, spirituality, and global literary traditions, emphasising the universal threads that weave through human experiences. Delving into the timeless nature of poetry, he draws parallels between diverse cultures, languages, and historical contexts, shedding light on the enduring relevance of literary classics. Join us as we unravel the layers of this captivating discussion, where the beauty of language and the depth of spirituality converge on a global scale. [00:39] - About Prof. Varghese Mathai Prof. Varghese Mathai is a professor of English at Judson University in Illinois.  He's a Fulbright scholar and Benjamin P. Brown, Chair of Communications at Judson University.  He teaches British poetry and literature or spirituality. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/tbcy/support

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/RF-3TbX8fXAAs a Christian in Iran, Naghmeh Panahi was arrested numerous times—and once even had a gun pointed at her head. But as awful as that was, Naghmeh says she endured something far worse when she began speaking out about abuse from her husband. It was then that she faced persecution—not from radical Muslims, but from Christians. In this edition of The Roys Report, you're going to hear Julie's powerful interview at the Restore Conference with Naghmeh Panahi. Naghmeh was catapulted into the national spotlight in 2013, a year after her husband, Pastor Saeed Abedini, was imprisoned for his faith in Iran.  With the help of Franklin Graham of Samaritan's Purse and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice, Naghmeh launched the Save Saeed campaign. The campaign garnered worldwide attention. And it eventually led to Saeed's release in 2015. But during this time, Naghmeh learned that Saeed's violence, repeated insults, and spiritual manipulation were not just a sign of a bad marriage. It was abuse.  Yet, when she spoke out about the abuse, the backlash from Christians was virulent and cruel. And the psychological and spiritual damage from that backlash was far worse than anything Naghmeh said she encountered in Iran. In this interview, Naghmeh talks candidly about the abuse and the Christian community's failure to stand with victims. But she also talks about the persecuted church—and how the Western Church's failure to care for the abused and broken is not a bug but a feature.  Drawing from her book, aptly titled, I Didn't Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse, Naghmeh's message is a prophetic witness to the American church—if we will listen in and take heed.  In her talk, Naghmeh refers to recent books by Miriam Ibraheem and Lance Ford. Guests Naghmeh Panahi Naghmeh Panahi is an author, speaker, and Bible teacher. Naghmeh made national news when she publicly advocated for the release of her then-husband, Saeed Abedini, who was imprisoned in Iran for his Christian faith. Naghmeh's autobiography, I Didn't Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution, and Hidden Abuse, is available now. Learn more at NaghmehPanahi.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSNAGHMEH PANAHI, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04As a Christian in Iran, Naghmeh Panahi was arrested numerous times and once even had a gun pointed at her head. But as awful as that was Naghmeh says she endured something far worse when she began speaking out about abuse from her husband. It was then that she faced persecution, not from radical Muslims, but from Christians. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today you’re going to hear my powerful interview at the RESTORE conference with Naghmeh Panahi. Naghmeh was catapulted into the national spotlight when her husband, Pastor Saeed Abedini, was imprisoned for his faith in Iran. And with the help of Franklin Graham of Samaritan’s Purse, and Jay Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice, Naghmeh launched the Save Saeed campaign. The campaign garnered worldwide attention and it eventually lead to Saeed’s release. But during this time, Naghmeh learned that Saeed’s violence, repeated insults, and spiritual manipulation was not just a sign of a bad marriage, it was abuse. Yet when she spoke out about the abuse, the backlash from Christians was virulent and cruel. And the psychological and spiritual damage from that backlash was far worse than anything Naghmeh said she encountered in Iran. In our interview, Naghmeh talks candidly about the abuse and the Christian community’s failure to stand with victims. But she also talks about the persecuted church and how the Western Church’s failure to care for the abused and broken is not a bug but a feature. I am so grateful for Naghmeh’s, prophetic witness to the American church, and I’m confident that God is using that witness both through podcasts like these, and in Naghmeh’s book aptly titled, I Didn’t Survive: Emerging Whole After Deception, Persecution and Hidden Abuse.   Julie Roys  01:50 We’ll get to my interview with Naghmeh just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:56 Well, again, here’s my interview with Naghmeh Panahi on surviving persecution from the church. This is from our last RESTORE conference in October 2023.   Julie Roys  03:07 Let’s just start with a little bit of your story. And again, those of you who know her story, this may be familiar, but I know I learned a lot of new things. You were born in Iran. And the interesting thing is you got to see Iran before the revolution, and then after. Talk about what the change was in Iran when you when you saw that happen?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  03:29 Yeah, I was actually born soon, a few years before the revolution. So, my mom was one of the first women in the king’s army, as a woman, which was pretty radical for her time. And also just, you know, Iran has had Islam for about 1400 years, so not Islamic culture. And she was very proud woman with her gun and protecting the Shah, but also, you know, having authority in a sense that women usually didn’t have. So, my mom was kind of protecting the king from the revolution. My dad was actually one of the people that wanted the Islamic Revolution, because, before the revolution, people like my mom, were wearing miniskirts. And, you know, just like the US, they were free, and my dad and his group of people thought, you know, we’re becoming too westernized. And if we have an Islamic religious revolution, then the culture will be more purified. And so, I kind of grew up in chaos. I saw  tires burning, my mom going, and my nanny would cry, and is she going to come back? Cuz she was trying to defend against the protesters, and then my dad would be in the streets and there was different groups that were trying to take over the government. And they were all radical and there was a lot of people just been killed in the streets. And so, I kind of grew up in a very chaotic political atmosphere of where the country was becoming very Islamic. And so, I went to school I shared in my book, my photo from my school, elementary school and I looked at and I was the most covered up. Like some of the girls had their head covering a little back. Just from the photo, you can tell I was so afraid. I was told you can’t show hair and all this teaching that was like going through the schools about just Islam and how we had to cover up. And so, it was very foreign to me, having seen my mom without a covering, and then seeing her, she had to be all covered up and her rank  taken away from her. And she had to be in an office setting, as a woman couldn’t have any authority over men in any position of power. And so, I was noticing a lot of that changes and the fear that was gripping a lot of the woman. I would actually have a lot of dreams that I was walking in the streets in Iran without head covering, and I was being arrested. And that was one of my, a lot of the nightmares I had. But just the fear of having to cover up and right around the revolution right after there was a war with Iraq. So, I also grew up in war, we had bombs and missiles. And I was just flipping through my social media, and I saw a video with the sirens going off in Israel. And all of a sudden I had a panic attack, because I would hear those sirens all of the time, the bomb sirens and you have to go to shelter and not knowing if your house was going to be the next one that was bombed, or a missile would hit it, or a lot of the Iraqi soldiers were certain parts of Iran were attacking and raping and taking captives and women and children were being killed. And so, it’s brought back a lot of that memory as a child, even just hearing that siren was so hard to listen to.   Julie Roys  06:47 I’m thinking when you’re talking about being covered up your mother losing her rank, being afraid as a woman I mean, I’m thinking of Sheila’s talk yesterday. I mean, this is like modesty message on steroids. As a young girl, how did you internalize, did that make you feel different about you?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  07:04 Yeah, I was told as a seven-year-old at that time. Like when I went to school, I had to dress up, like cover up, I was told that I was sexually appealing to men.   Julie Roys  07:14  As a seven-year-old?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  07:16 That’s what I we had to once I went to school, like six, seven-year-old got to be fully covered. And people I know that had their relatives like their grandmother had married at the age of nine and their mother had married at the age of 12. Right now, we do work in Afghanistan, and since the Taliban has taken over these, as soon as the girl hits puberty, like nine, a lot of times 9-10, they’re being married and they’re now giving birth to babies at like 10, 11, 12. And so yeah, it’s unfortunately it was part of the culture. And as a little girl, you’re told that you had to cover up because it would be tempting to a man as a little seven-year-old. Which is interesting, because years later was like, the purity culture sounds very Islamic.   Julie Roys  08:05 So, your parents did leave. And it sounded like the impetus was the fear that your brother might get drafted in the army. And the little boys were basically sent out there to check where the landmines were right? So, I mean, it was almost certain death. So, your parents escaped out of there and came to the US, settled in Idaho, and then the story of how you became a believer is really phenomenal and interesting too, how your parents when you became a believer, that was not welcome.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  08:41 No. My mom was more of a moderate Muslim. My dad was very strong Muslim. Like he had his prayer life and fasting. I’d never in the Islamic Revolution world, I never heard of the name Jesus. And so, when we came to America, my twin brother who actually he got his doctorate at University of Chicago in quantum physics, and so he was not emotional growing up, and even with the war I was the more emotional one he was, the more like, questioning God. But he was crying like I’d never seen him emotionally. And he said, I know we question Who is God? Why is he allowing, we would see our classmates like their dead bodies in the street. The houses of the kids that we would play with,  completely gone. And we didn’t know if we were next. I mean, just growing up in war was just insane. And so, we had a lot of questions about God. And he came running to me one day when we’d just come to America, and he said, I found the God we’ve been looking for. His name is Jesus. And I was like, what? He had a vision, I guess he had seen Jesus and he said, he is all I felt was love. And I just know we have to find out who this Jesus is. And so that’s how we were saved. We were running around acting like crazy nine-year-olds, like who’s Jesus? And with our limited English, we found some people who, you know, spoke Farsi, and told us and gave us a Farsi Bible. And we thought our parents would be as excited as us. They were angry. My dad wanted us actually, to move us back to Iran. He said, it’s better if we die in the war. You’ve become Christian. You’ve lost your culture. You’ve lost everything. And my full name is Naghmeh Sharia Panahi. So, Sharia is Islamic law. Panahi means protector, so our last name meant protector of Islamic law. And so, my dad always prided himself like we’re related to the Prophet Mohammed, like the Prophet of Islam. And so, for him, for us to become Christian was like, the worst thing ever. And so, he was in the process of moving us back into a war with like chemical warfare. My brother was about to be signed up to go to like, run through the mines. And he didn’t seem to care. He thought us becoming Christian was like the worst thing that had happened.   Julie Roys  11:07 Unbelievable. And despite that, I mean, you would think as a nine-year-old, something like this happens, your parents don’t support it, it’ll be gone, it will be eradicated from your life. Why didn’t that happen?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  11:19 Yeah, my uncle, my uncle, who graduated from university in California, had found a job in Boise, Idaho. And he said, you know, let’s move them there. They’re only nine. It’s just a little feeling. They’re going to forget about this Jesus, you know. And as a nine-year-old, you want to please your parents. They’re all we had in the war. Like, they were our lifeline, and wanting to please them. And so, they thought he said, they’re going to forget about this Jesus. And we didn’t. I mean, it’s by grace of God, he kept our faith, our Bible was taken from us, me and my brother weren’t allowed to even pray together. My dad had a lot of fits of anger. Just a lot of it, we experienced a lot of persecution, anger in the home. And in Idaho, we were pretty much isolated. Try to forget about Jesus, and we didn’t, and it was not until we were from nine until 16-17, where my parents, I guess, were on their own journey. We didn’t know but they were on their own journey of finding Jesus. They were secretly reading the Bible they took from us. I didn’t know that at that time.   Julie Roys  12:26 When did they actually become believers?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  12:29 Right around as I was graduating, I could see they had softened. I would sneak out, as soon as I got my driver’s license, I would sneak out to a church. And I thought they didn’t know but they knew. And they were okay with it because they were reading the Bible. But they didn’t become Christians until I went to college. And when I came home, they were like, We believe we want to be baptized, from nine until 22.   Julie Roys  12:57 And why is it? I’ve always you hear this among Muslims so often, that they have these visions of Jesus, and they come to Jesus through that. I mean, it just seems to be a feature. Why do you think that is?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  13:14 I think that whoever cries out to God, anywhere in the world, God will make himself known. In Iran, you don’t have a lot of missionaries right now. And I would talk to people in Iran, I would talk to, and I would say, hey, I would talk to a woman, I’d say, Do you know who Jesus is? And they would start crying. And they would say, Yes, I saw him in a vision. Like, tell me more. My child was dying, and I cried out to God, and I said, help and Jesus appeared to me and said, I am the way the truth and the life, but they didn’t know much. They just knew that he’d healed their child, or he was the way the truth and the life. Like they knew little parts of who Jesus was. But it was really not hard to evangelize. That’s why I think when I returned to Iran, we saw such a revival because people already knew who Jesus was. They’d seen him in dreams and visions, and they’d already seen him move in ways that wasn’t, we weren’t trying to convince them. They were like, Yeah, we know him. He healed our child, or I saw him in a vision.   Julie Roys  14:15 Wow. So you went to college, were planning on becoming a doctor. You must have done quite well in school.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  14:23 I think coming from an immigrant family, you’re told you have no choice, lawyer, or doctor. We’re in America you have to pursue the American dream.   Julie Roys  14:33 Right. And probably the last place on earth you wanted to go was Iran and yet you ended up back in Iran.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  14:41 I did. My parents really struggle with that because I went right after September 11. And when no one wanted to get on an airplane, and no one wanted to fly into the Middle East. So, I had the whole airplane to myself flying into Iran, and President Bush was like there’s gonna be war in that region. And so, I just felt like God was like, this is the time to go, I’m going to change that land through the gospel. My fight is through the gospel is through love, you know, in Christ. And so, I didn’t know when I went back. And my parents thought I was crazy. I was about to take the MCAT like I was on the road to being a medical doctor. And I said, I need a break. I feel like God’s telling me to go to Iran  I didn’t know that I was going to be at the forefront of a revival. But I just knew God was like, You need to go now. And so, when I went, he allowed me to be at the forefront of revival and be part of leading one of the largest house church movements in Iran.   Julie Roys  15:46 And when you flew over there, was it on the plane, you get those cards, and you have to declare things?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  15:51 In Muslim countries, I don’t know why, but every single they have no shame about discrimination. Religious discrimination is like they don’t there’s like nothing. So, everything you fill out has religion, what’s your religion? So, that’s why Christians when people become Christians, they have to fill up. And because of their conscience, they can’t put Muslim. So, they put Christian so as soon as they put Christian, even like filling out a passport. If they write Christian, they’re arrested. They can’t work if they write Christian, if they’re not arrested, they can’t find job, or they can’t go to school, Christians are not allowed to go to school. And so even on the airplane immigration form, I had religion, and I knew my last name meant I was a Muslim. Like people could tell by your last name, you’re a Muslim, but I knew I was a Christian, I really struggle with that form. And it was right after September 11. And I was like, stepping into radical Iran that I had read about killing so many pastors and hanging them as an example. And I wrote down Muslim.   Julie Roys  16:57 And also because of your name, they would know that you were born Muslim, yeah. That you converted and that’s a major, major no, no.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  17:04 Yeah. I was fine by myself. And I mean, I just felt so bad. I felt like a Peter moment. I just there was so much fear, flying into Iran. And as a Christian, I’d never experienced that. Anyway, I had left Iran as a Muslim. God was allowing me to go back as a Christian and to experience what it meant to really understand the persecuted church. And so yeah.   Julie Roys  17:30 So, you get into Iran. Talk about the church and the, you know, the way the house church movement was going and also about this very charismatic pastor that you saw over there named Saeed.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  17:43 Saeed. Yeah, so I grew up in the purity movement. I was like, when I went to Iran, I was 24. I hadn’t dated I was told first hold, holding hand or first kiss had to be with someone you married. I had some people pursued me in college, good Christian guys that I was like, nope. And so, I hadn’t really experienced  anything. And Iran had right now they don’t they had some building churches, that they allowed the Armenians to conduct church, because the Armenian people are considered Christians. They’re not converting. They were like, they have been Christians for generations. So Iranian government allows for religious freedom for the Armenians to conduct church. They weren’t allowed to let Muslims in like Persians. Persians are, you know, have been Muslims for so many hundreds of years, you know, 1400 years. But the church actually that I met Saeed in had started allowing Muslims to come in and they were converting, and one of them was Saeed. And that’s why they had killed some of their pastors. The government had arrested and killed some of the pastors at that building church. And I saw Saeed he was on. It’s a long story, how I ended up in that church. I had a cousin that had gotten saved and invited me, so I was about to leave Iran. I had been a missionary for one year, and I had five people who accepted Christ. And I was like, Okay, I shared with every single relative, like aunt and uncle gave out Bibles. And there was five people became Christians. And then I was like, Okay, I’m done. I was about to leave.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  19:12 My cousin invites me to this church service. And I go inside Saeed was on stage worship on the worship team. And I really saw a lot of passion for Jesus. And then he was like, I love evangelism. Like that’s my number one passion. And even in Boise, I would always go and evangelize to the refugees, the Muslim refugees that were coming in. And so, he seemed like this great evangelist, and I was really drawn to him. And so, we started working together. He actually reached out to me and said, Hey, you want to do ministry together? And I didn’t realize but he was going to an underground bible school by the Assemblies of God there. And  because the government was heavily persecuting the building church, they were being trained to start house churches. So, at that time, he had about a dozen people, I had five we decided to join forces. And within a few years it grew to 1000s over 33 cities and it was college students, they were our house was in the middle of Tehran-by-Tehran University. And so, all these college students were getting saved. And then they would go back into their city and evangelize. And all these house churches was just popping up. And all over Iran, every 33 major cities had churches, within two years.   Julie Roys  20:34 Very organically.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  20:35 Very, it was all college students, very organic.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  20:39 And women. Women did a lot of leadership. Yes, it’s really I mean, ironic in a Muslim country.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  20:46 Very ironic. I was just sharing that is China and Iran had this revival of house church movement, and women are the main ones leading it. And in a culture like, Iranian culture, where women are literally told their property, and a lot of the Muslim men treat them with a lot of contempt, they don’t have a lot of freedom. And so, a lot of Muslim women are drawn to the church and become saved because they see how the men in the underground church honor women and they’re leading. And the men are completely okay with that. And they’re working together. I mean, there’s no titles, there’s no stage, they call each other brother and sister, even the pastor, which is like a shepherd or shepherdess. It’s called sister like Sister Naghmeh, Sister Julie. So, no one’s called, , no one’s given a title. And actually, being the pastor or the leader of that house church, means you’re going to be the first one to be arrested and killed, you know. And I share in my book about a 10-year-old girl that I met in one of the cities and  she got saved at 10. She was passionate by 25. She was a discipling like 500 women. And she was arrested, tortured, and solitary confinement. She would not even give out one name, she was defending her flock. She went through so much. And she came out she’s like, I didn’t give out one name. They weren’t able to find any of the 500 people that she was discipling. And so that’s what it means to be the leader, it’s, you’re literally laying down your life for the sheep. It’s not like a place of popularity, it’s actually not a place, I’ve shared that in the podcasts with you. Not a place that a lot of narcissists like to serve. It’s not fun.   Julie Roys  22:33 I mean, that’s the thing, if you hear so often, the shepherd should be the first to lay down his life, right? And if that were the case, it does just sort of naturally weed out the chaff.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  22:47 Literally, if you’re the leader means you’re going to be the first one that’s arrested and tortured. So what narcissist want to do that? So, you don’t see a lot of narcissists. And you don’t see, unfortunately, you don’t see a lot of the men wanting that position. So, a lot of the women are the ones carrying the torch of the gospel, and they’re the ones being arrested. They’re the ones being raped. They’re the ones being tortured. They’re the woman by the well that Jesus is using. I was sharing with one of my pastors recently, I was like, how dare God use women on the underground churches in Iran? Why does he do that? But it’s the woman but they’re not getting any popularity. They’re literally being tortured and killed, but they’re the ones, the weak, Isn’t doesn’t Jesus says he uses the weak, broken? It is the weak, broken woman who’ve been so shattered in that society that God is just lifting up and honoring and giving the privilege to suffer for the gospel.   Julie Roys  23:45 And where we see the church shrinking in the West, in these places where it’s organically happening without all of the money and the programs and, you know, all the seven steps to this that are the other thing. The gospel is going forward.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  24:02 Yes, it is going without a program. It’s weak vessels that society has crushed, that Jesus is honoring and using for the gospel in one of the hardest countries in the world that has the most crazy governments. With great wisdom, God is using that. And doesn’t he say that in his word? That’s who he uses, but it’s really It’s so confusing for me because I see that happening in the Middle East. And then the way women are honored in a place where they haven’t been. And then I see something different here, which has been so hard to try to digest that. But it’s so radical. I mean if you guys could understand how radical it is. And I know you’ve watched like sheep among wolves and all that. It’s radical for women to be leading in the Middle East, the house churches. Just think about that in a culture that has said You’re nothing your property, just how radical that is. And for Jesus during his time to do that too; be so radical in the way he honored women. I am just still shocked by the fact that how the men in the house churches really honor the women and really  God, it’s the work of the Holy Spirit. There’s no other explanation.   Julie Roys  25:19 It is so cool. So, you told of a time when you denied the Lord, but you had another chance.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  25:26 Yeah, I told the Lord. I went home and I cried, I said, God, if I have another opportunity, I will not deny your name. And two and a half years later, I was arrested. But I’ve been arrested a lot. Many times, for the gospel. We were like, if we were smuggling Bibles, like at night, we would try to move around Bibles and give it to different house churches. So, we were arrested many times, there’s so many stories. But there was an incident where it was the scariest because I was actually detained. I have guns pointed to my head, we were basically told, if you say you’re a Christian, you will go to a woman’s prison, you will get raped and tortured and you will die. If you say you’re Muslim, you get to walk out this door right now. And everything within me wanted to be Muslim. I just want to get out of that door. I had the radical Revolutionary Guards all around me with guns and I was just like, Okay God, you know how the Bible says, he will put the words in our mouth? And I said, I’m a Christian. And the story is more detailed in my book. But towards the end of it,  this top interrogator was crying and asking for a Bible. The guy that threatened to kill me, was actually ended up asking for a Bible.   Julie Roys  26:46 And Saeed said that he got his inspiration from you because you. . .   NAGHMEH PANAHI  26:52 There was three of us that got arrested. The first guy wrote Muslim, and then it was my turn. And so, I wrote Christian, and the Revolutionary Guard interrogator asked for my testimony. He said,  basically my testimony was the evidence that was going to convict me of the death sentence they were going to give me for converting. And then Saeed also said he was Christian. And he told me after we left, I was gonna write Muslim. But when you said Christian, I got inspired to also write Christian. So yeah.   Julie Roys  27:32 So, you guys come back to the States. You end up getting married to Saeed. There were some red flags in your dating relationship, obviously, that you talk about in the book. And we don’t have time to go into all of what happened. But what was your life with Saeed behind closed doors?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  27:55 Yeah, so Saeed had never been to the states. We came to the States in 2005, after a lot of persecution. But in Iran, it was the first full on physical abuse happened when we fled Iran in Dubai. So about a year and a half into our marriage, but I didn’t see the signs of abuse, obviously, now looking back, but early on, he didn’t find me attractive. He would say, you’re so dark, and you’re so ugly, and you need to do nose surgery, you need to do surgery with your eyebrows, and you need to lose weight. And so, he was just, pretty much I start questioning, I said by that by the time we were  eight years into the marriage before Saeed’s arrest, I couldn’t even think for myself. I remember the interviews, I would tell people, this is the first time I’m processing life without Saeed because I would have to ask him permission, what do I say? And it was really hard  being put in the spotlight and having to rely on my own. Not as Saeed  to give answers. It started out with him putting down my looks. And then it was like, questioning the way I was seeing things and then questioning the way I was looking at Scripture and saying, I was idolizing scripture, I needed to let the Holy Spirit , you know, his own idea of what the Holy Spirit is. And just he started questioning my understanding of Scripture. There was not a full-on beating, but he would shove me he had me beg. He would have me beg and kiss his feet. It’s in the book. There’s some really hard stuff in the book. But pretty much, after eight years of marriage, we came to America because of intense persecution. And then after four years of being in America from 2005 to 2009, we didn’t go to Iran, but then he started traveling. And then he got arrested. He thought, Well, we haven’t done house church for four years. I can go back. He went back and forth, back, and forth. 2012 was arrested the time he was arrested; I was a shell of a person. I had no friends. He cut off my family, my friends. I had so much makeup on, I was 30 pounds lighter than I am now. I tried everything to be exactly how he wanted me to be. And I couldn’t show emotion. If I cried, he would say you’re trying to manipulate me with your tears, he would get very angry with tears. I couldn’t laugh, I couldn’t express any emotion. So I was just like this very dead person, just basically, I worked full time he didn’t work. So, I was full time I was a slave, I was working full time taking care of the kids cooking, cleaning. And he was just traveling, and I was funding his travels. And so I was, close to death. I didn’t realize his imprisonment was my freedom. I did not see it; I was so mad at God. And I explained it in my book. I thought God was being so cruel to me. Now I have to try to get my husband out of the worst prison in the world.   Julie Roys  30:55 And you are gone from being premed, you had done incredibly well in school, then you help your dad run his business.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  31:02 I was very confident.   Julie Roys  31:03 Confident, competent, all of these things. And after these years of marriage, you have been reduced to that point. And then you start advocating for him. It doesn’t dawn on you that you’re being abused till pretty far along in the whole process. But talk about when you finally because I think a lot of people have heard you know the story up until this point. But then you advocated for him. And then you got to the point where you finally said, it dawned on you you were being abused. And you said something.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  31:36 Well, the reason it dawned on me if he hadn’t had a phone, most people don’t realize this part of the puzzle. The last year of his imprisonment, he had obtained a smartphone where he could literally get on the internet in maximum security prison in Iran. It was a smuggled phone worth $7,000 to get that phone to him. But I’m glad it happened. Because at first I was like, why does he have a phone and he’s treating me like this? He would call me Jezebel, like that was the number one word he’d use against me. whore and again, you’re ugly, you’re nobody if people are clapping, they’re clapping for Abedini, Saeed Abedini. They’re not clapping for you. I’m the hero of the story. He saw that I met with Obama I met with Trump I  was on the news. And we did a prayer vigil with Mr. Franklin Graham and 2 million people watching online and he saw when he called me for the first time he saw this confident woman that he had destroyed for eight years. So, he saw, Oh, she has confidence in Jesus. I dreamed in his time of imprisonment. It was my time in the cocoon. I was reading the word praying again, because I couldn’t even pick up the Bible when I was in abuse. I couldn’t imagine, I kept myself pure. I had been a missionary and part of me was really mad at God for allowing me to suffer like this. I mean, I describe a lot of hard things in the Bible. In my book, I was raped by him. It was just a horrible, horrible marriage.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  33:15 And so, part of me, I guess, had distanced myself from God thinking, I kept myself pure. I wanted to serve you. Why would you allow this? And so, when he was in prison, actually, I drew close to God and like you said, I had been raised in a home where my dad gave me a lot of confidence. And so anyways, my Heavenly Father was like, really, through the Bible I am finding confidence. So, when he got a smartphone, he saw that confidence and he was scared. I didn’t see it at that time. So, as he was calling me all sorts of names, I’m writing articles for The Washington Post and New York Times. I'm writing op-eds on being on the news and traveling, speaking in churches and he’s calling me names. I couldn’t understand why because people are like, Your husband must be so proud of you. I was literally traveling the world getting him out. He had an eight-year sentence. He spent three years in prison, six months in house arrest, but he could have been there for a longer time. They were actually going to give him more and more years. People are like, he must be so proud. You’ve met with presidents to get him out and then here he was calling me names and I couldn’t get it.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  34:22 So finally, I broke coming from the Middle Eastern culture and the Christian culture, you don’t want to air out your dirty laundry. So, I didn’t tell anyone even my parents had experienced abuse themselves. He had physically beat up my dad, but it was a culture of you don’t divorce no matter what, but also a culture, you don’t talk about it. So, for the first time I shared with this pastor that I was speaking at his church, I said, I don’t understand. Here’s all these text messages he’s sending on Skype to me. He’s calling me all sorts of names. I don’t get it like why? And he said, “You're an abused wife. He said, This is why he is And then it started making sense Oh, he needed to crush me to control me. And I wasn’t crushed. During his time of imprisonment, God was setting me free inside was seeing that. And so, he was calling me all sorts of names. And when this pastor gave me the diagnosis, that was it   There was no going back. Because before then I was like, I have a hard marriage. And then once I knew it was cancer, I’m like uh, this needs chemo, and I knew I had to educate myself on what abuse was and what do I do?   Julie Roys  35:35 And so, you sent an email. To like, 100 close supporters.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  35:39 Yeah, I was like, Nah, this is the way the media has blown it up. I sent an email to really close friends. And then that got leaked to the media. And then yeah, I was, I think Lori Anne Thompson said this stone was like the person bleeding by the road. I was like, stones were thrown at me. I was bullied by Franklin Graham, told to shut up. You’re damaging the cause of Christ. He used every power every connection he had. And he was like, You’re never ever going to do ministry again if you talk. I was like, I don’t want to do ministry. I just want to live quietly in Boise, Idaho. Why is ministry an idol? He was scaring me but saying you’re never gonna do anything. I’m like, It’s okay, I don’t want it. So, he couldn’t hold that over me. But I lost everything like Lori Anne Thompson said, I had to quit my job to advocate for him. So, my income had been speaking engagements. And that was taken from me. So, all of a sudden I’m in the middle of he comes out, files for divorce, because how dare I have leaked, shared with a group of people that leaked information about abuse. And so, he came out filed for divorce, the worst thing I was afraid of which was actually my freedom. But at that time, it was heartbreaking. Because I fought to get him out. He didn’t even want to fight for our marriage. He just came out and filed for divorce. And I literally lost everything. I lost my marriage, I lost my income, I had stones thrown at me, I was literally by the side of the road. And all the religious leaders were like either kicking me, or quietly walking by. It was very few that were there, all the text messages stopped, all the Naghmeh, we got you and my poor kids too, they would always get gifts and support. They would get so many gifts on their birthdays. And it all of a sudden stopped. And they’re like, Mom, what happened? And all of a sudden, we’re just like, I mean, I got so many calls from past, pastors that were just throwing things at me. And I had a really interesting experience with Family Research Council too. And so, it was just like, a lot of stones at a time where my marriage was falling apart. And yeah, it was a very difficult time.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  35:43 So that the title of your book is I Didn’t Survive.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  37:58  People don’t like that. They’re like you’re a survivor.   Julie Roys  38:03 But the old Naghmeh is not the Naghmeh who’s sitting here is this like Dr. Monroe said, you know that you change your different. How have you changed and why?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  38:19 I am not the person I was 10 years ago once I went to prison. I think I would describe it like a caterpillar going into the cocoon. The caterpillar is no longer the caterpillar, it's a butterfly. There’s a confidence I have in God. There’s a lack of fear of what religious leaders. My Goliath was Franklin Graham. He used every power he had to shut me down. I know this for a fact. Some megachurch pastors called me and said yeah, Franklin called us and every person I reached out for help, Franklin would call and say if you help her, you know? And so yeah, there’s a lot of stories. I don’t have fear of losing anything. I know that losing income, ministry, people’s praises, all of that fell and the old Naghmeh was afraid of losing a lot of things like marriage, status, income, even as a single mom; all that fear is gone. He’s been my provider, day in and day out. I live for Christ and if people don’t like that, then it’s okay. I don’t get any benefit from people either copying or so there’s a lot of people pleasing. I’m just not the old Naghmeh. The old Naghmeh was so afraid, scared about people’s opinion. I mean, I care for people but I’m not a people pleaser. You would have been surprised to meet the Naghmeh of 2012. She would have been a completely different person.   Julie Roys  39:49 Thing Mariam said in her book, that she said that the domestic abuse that she suffered by her husband was worse and If you read Miriam’s book, I can’t quite even wrap my head around what can be worse than some of the things that she suffered at the hands of Muslim persecutors. But in what ways was that worse when you get persecuted from professing Christians?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  40:22 She said it’s worse? So, Miriam and I are, she’s one of my best friends. And she came out of Sudanese prison. She was on death row, and I met her soon after she’d given birth to her daughter, Maya in prison. And then she faced this horrific, you will read her account in prison in her book that’s out there. The prison experience her growing up as a refugee in Sudan. Her mom was a refugee. Her dad was Sudanese, and she grew up in a horrible situation and then she was given the death sentence by the radical Muslims there in Sudan and treated horribly. For her to say what she experienced in domestic abuse and the church’s response was worse than that? I was like, “Are you what?! She said she knew that was the enemy, she’s like, I knew that was my enemy. I knew that those people that had persecuted me where my enemy. I didn’t expect it to come from my home. And I didn’t expect it to come from my Christian community. Like that was what was like I think you said that about Lori Anne Thompson’s, that it came from the church is the most messed up thing with the name of carrying the name of Jesus to for broken people that Jesus so cares about to be trampled on. And use then abuse is I just that just, it’s so messed up. And so that’s why she says that she’s like, I didn’t expect it in my home, that my enemy would be in my home and that the way the Christian community respond to her she was a Christian hero for standing up to the Muslim community in Sudan. And then she was a bad person for wanting to divorce her abusive husband. No one wanted to touch her. She shares that. It’s like the modern leper, she Yeah, she  actually became homeless, no one wanted to help her. She had to flee her home with her two kids that had just left Sudanese prison. And no one wanted to touch it. No one wanted to get her a lawyer help get her nothing. She had nothing. She just come out of Sudan with no English. She filed for divorce in 2018. So, four years after she came out from Sudan, so she knew a little bit of English, but she had never worked in the US. I mean, she literally was helpless. She had no family. Her mom had died. I mean, she had no family and the Christian community that had tried to help her escape Sudan was now like, don’t talk to us, don’t reach out. Don’t talk to us. Like she became a leper. Yeah, so I wish she was here. And we tell her story.   Julie Roys  42:56 Yeah. So last question because we’re gonna have to wrap up. But having been through what you’ve been through, seeing what you’ve seen in the house church movement in Iran, then coming to the US and experiencing what you did by the American church, what message do you have for the American church today?   NAGHMEH PANAHI  43:18 To get Lance’s book. It's so messed up the way the system is destroying is not Christianity, what we have here is a system it’s a business. It’s not laying down your life for the sheep. It’s actually like Ezekiel, where God’s like you’re abusing,  you’re using the sheep for your own benefit. A good shepherd would actually lay down. I mean, Paul says, you know, parents should give to the children, not children, like he should have been this rich pastor, and he’s like, I’m poor. I’m homeless. I’m treated like he wasn’t a great speaker, he wouldn’t be probably have any church gathering. And so, it’s just the way the system is really. If anyone that comes from the house church movement in Iran or China, they come here and they’re like, Oh, the church is asleep, like there’s no church. There’s buildings, people are gathering in buildings, but the church is dead. Anyone has ever come that’s the first reaction they give is, wow, the church here is sleeping. And so, I would say I think we really need to rethink and not just read about Jesus was the servant, what does that mean in my life? And I love what Lori Anne Thompson said that we don’t also as abuse survivors, we are not the heroes either, Jesus is. I think the reason I wrote my book is that it's not heroic, someone wrote a review. It’s not about anyone being a hero. It’s about the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony, and my hope is my testimony is going to help draw people to Christ because I’m not the answer. Christ is. And so that’s why I’ve kind of refrained from writing a curriculum or having an answer. I’m and like Jesus, he helped me, point to him. And so, we’re not the heroes. You know, as survivors, or as the persecuted church. The persecuted church doesn’t want to be heroes. They’re just following Christ. But I think we can learn a lot from the persecuted church and really learn what it means to carry our cross. I don’t think the American church really, the leadership understand what that is. What does it mean to carry your cross and die to yourself daily?   Julie Roys  45:36 And I do believe that out of the ashes, new things are coming. And who was it that said, maybe it was last night at the dinner that I think it was Laurie Adams Brown, who said that she believes that survivors and a lot of what’s happening for people that have been through this who have really experienced the pain of what’s happened, it’s fertile ground for a new thing to happen in the church. And so that’s my prayer.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  46:07 I think this is my I’ve prayed and cried out to God many times. I think God’s gonna use the broken. We are looking for oh, I think Sheila said that, too. We’re looking to these big platforms to do something and God’s like, No, I’m going to use the little scattered broken people on the outside. You keep looking to these megachurch pastors see, please see this. And they’re not because for them to see it, it means their whole world would be toppled upside down. And so, we’re trying to change these big organizations. But a lot of times the answer is actually Jesus is like, no, I’m actually going to  do a work outside of that. And that’s going to, yeah, anyways, I think just having spent many hours just crying for the church in America, because I was born and raised for the first nine years in Iran. But I’ve been in America for like 37 years. And so, I’ve cried for this country. And as a Christian, and I think he’s going to work in a way we didn’t expect him to. It’s not going to be people with platforms, it’s going to be a grassroot, no one’s going to be the hero, it’s only going to be Jesus. I tell people because they like to build heroes. I’m like,  don’t look to me to be the chain. It’s gonna require every one of us, like Sheila I think said, and a lot of the speakers. It’s going to be a grassroot because like I said, Jesus Himself, God is a jealous God. He deserves all the glory; he’s going to be the Savior. There’s no minnie saviors that are going to change the climate, you know, here. So, it’s just gonna be all Jesus. But all of us are just a voice. But we need to use our voice. And I think what Lori Anne said, or Adam said is true, I think it’s going to be a lot of the movement is going to start with the survivors and the broken. And that’s why people ask me, you were so passionate about the Middle East, I still work with the underground church in Iran and Afghanistan. I’m not a ministry, but I try to collect money and just give everything there. But I also care about their views, then they’re like, this is kind of two different worlds. I’m like, No, it’s not. Because Jesus is with the broken, the persecuted church is broken. The abused are broken, they’re both desperate for God. And guess what God cannot resist? God cannot resist His people being broken. Like he will step in like you have not. Gloria Thompson said she was like, once she had her daughter, she’s like, I will fight for her. And God is that jealous for us. And when we’re broken, that’s when God’s steps in. And so, for both the persecuted church and the abused, my heart is for them. First of all, Jesus says, If you want to minister to me, minister to the least of these my brothers. So, if you want to actually walk with Jesus, it’s not on the big platforms. It’s literally walking with the least of these. That’s where I experienced Jesus is when I’m walking with an abused woman. I’m not on I’m literally just, I’ve had abused woman live in my house, like, that’s where I’m experiencing Jesus, or when I’m working with the persecuted church, who have no money to eat, and they’re still carrying forth the gospel. They’re in these countries that are sanctioned. They’re so poor, and as Christians, they’re even poorer, but they continue to take the gospel. So when I hang out with the least of these, I truly experience the move of the Spirit. And so, they’re related. The persecuted church, and the survivors abused, you know, women and men. They have a common thread that is attractive to me, and that’s brokenness and desperation for God. Anyways.   Julie Roys  49:47 Naghmeh, every time I sit with you, I get inspired. Thank you so much. Thank you for so truthfully telling your story and for being an inspiration to so many of us.   NAGHMEH PANAHI  50:02 Thank you, Julie. And I just so appreciate it. You know, people have attacked you before being divisive and like, trying to go after the church, but your heart to bring healing to the church is I think I just know there’s going to be I’ve prayed for this, there should be 10s of 1000s of people coming to this conference of just finding that restoration. And you know, and so I appreciate your work so much. And yeah, keep going. You have my prayers. And so, thank you. Thank you.   Julie Roys  50:45 That was just such a special interview with Naghmeh Panahi, and it’s one of many unforgettable moments from our last RESTORE conference. And if you’re listening and thinking, man, I don’t want to miss out on that next RESTORE conference, I want to encourage you to send us an email at The Roys Report at JULIEROYS.COM, and just put in the subject line RESTORE EMAIL, and we’ll be sure to add you to our email list. And then when we announce the date and all the information about the next conference, you’ll be sure to be the first to know. Also, if you’re grateful for these interviews and talks, which we’re making available free of charge, would you please consider giving to The Roys Report. As I’ve noted before, we don’t have any big donors or advertisers, we simply have you the people who care about abuse and corruption in the church and want to expose it. To donate, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t ever miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/eX7GZjdC4DEWhy can't people get over talking about race? Ever heard that line? Or, how about: We live in a post-racial world. We've even had a black president! If racism doesn't exist, then we don't have to deal with it. Yet racism, sadly, is alive and well—not just in our culture, but within the church. On this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Dr. Lainna Callentine—an educator, pediatrician, and former evangelical faith leader—delivers a powerful talk from our recent Restore Conference. Lainna has walked an incredibly difficult and painful journey as a Black woman in the evangelical church. This is a journey that white evangelicals often don't acknowledge. And it's an experience that Julie Roys, TRR founder and a friend of Lainna's, admits that she once didn't believe or affirm. But, just as Julie's eyes have been opened to abuse and corruption in the church, the past few years have given her a new awareness of racism in the church, as you'll hear in Julie's introduction of Lainna's talk. Lainna's talk, which is rich with history and personal anecdotes, has the power to open the eyes of many others. Please listen with a heart and mind open to what Lainna and the Holy Spirit have to say. Guests Lainna Callentine, M.D., M.Ed. Lainna Callentine, M.D., M.Ed., is a pediatrician, former homeschool mother, master's trained educator, and creator of curriculum program, Sciexperience. Dr. Callentine received her B.A. from Northwestern University and completed her M.D. at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. She has taught all levels from early childhood to postgraduate students. Learn more at sciexperience.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys, LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. Julie Roys  00:04Why can’t people just get over talking about race? Ever heard that line? Or how about, we live in a post racial world, we even had a black president. Of course, if racism doesn’t exist, then we don’t have to deal with it. But as you’re about to hear racism, sadly is alive and well, not just in our culture, but within the church. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And on this podcast, you’re about to hear a powerful talk from our RESTORE conference by Dr. Lainna CALLENTINE Lainna is a pediatrician and an educator and a former faith leader in the evangelical church. But she’s also a friend of mine who’s walked an incredibly difficult and painful journey as a black woman in the white Evangelical Church. This is a journey that white evangelicals often don’t acknowledge. And as you’ll hear, it’s an experience I once didn’t believe or affirm. But just like I’ve had my eyes opened to abuse and corruption in the church, the past few years have opened my eyes to racism in the church as well. And coming to terms with this reality has been hard because I’ve had to deal with my own ignorance and indifference. And I’ve had to acknowledge my complicity with a sinful system that treats persons of color as less than full bearers of the image of God. But what Lainna did, coming into a predominantly white space and delivering this message was even harder. And I think that’s something I haven’t realized until recently as well. So many of our Black, Hispanic, Asian, and indigenous brothers and sisters have been profoundly wounded and traumatized by white Christians. And they have every reason to expect that when they speak to us, they’ll be minimized, dismissed, and traumatized again. I’m grateful that didn’t happen at RESTORE and I hope like the audience at RESTORE, you’ll open your heart and your mind to receive this important message from Dr. Lainna Callentine on surviving white evangelical racism.   Julie Roys  01:57 But before we hear from Lena, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM   Julie Roys  03:01 Well, again, you’re about to hear a talk by Dr. Lainna Callentine on surviving and thriving beyond white evangelical racism. I’ve also included in this podcast a portion of my introduction of Lainna at RESTORE, which includes an important apology. For time sake, I’ve had to remove my description of how my eyes were opened to racism in the church, while investigating what happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church, the Church John Piper pastored for three decades. But I encourage you if you want to understand more about the covert nature of racism in the evangelical church, go back and listen to our two-part podcast on what happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church when you’re finished with Lainna’s talk. But now here’s Lainna’s powerful talk at RESTORE 2023 with a short introduction and apology by me.   Julie Roys  03:49 So, three weeks ago, our next guest and I got together at her request, and we talked for about four hours. And she said, Julie, I just don’t know if I can do this talk. And she said this is what normally happens when I come into a predominantly white audience, and I talk about the trauma I’ve experienced as an African American woman in the church. So, I go out there and I bleed,  I bare my soul, and then they look at me with eyes of disbelief., and they just go on their way. And I mostly listened because I really didn’t have a lot to say, and I just needed to hear. And then she reminded me about how we had gotten together because our next guest is a friend of mine. In fact, she was my daughter’s 11th grade biology teacher. And she reminded me of a time we got together in a coffee house, and she shared her, really bared her soul to me, about all the racism that she had experienced. And she said, Julie, I didn’t feel like you believed me either. And the truth is six, seven, however, many years ago, this was I didn’t really believe it. I mean, I believe there was probably some racism in the church. It really wasn’t until I did the investigation on Bethlehem Baptist Church, John Piper’s church, and I got to know these people who had persons of color that had gotten together, had a dinner for the first time where it was just them. And they shared some of their experiences. And out of that, they decided that they wanted to put together a committee and address why is it that we have so few persons of color on our elder board? And then what happened with this committee is that then they spent, I forget how many months, a lot of months working on this, and then they gave their findings. And you know, it’s kind of death in committee. They gave their findings, that was it, nothing happened. Every single member of that committee ended up leaving the church.   Julie Roys  06:22 And so, it kind of opened my eyes to how this is done. And it’s kind of a covert thing. And I had to say to Lainna, you know what? I’m sorry. I’m sorry that I didn’t see that. And I’m sure that hurt you. And that was wrong of me. And I also told her that you guys are different. And when you’ve had enough bad experiences with white people, it’s hard to say this group is different. But I said, one, this group knows about believing victims, about believing survivors, and believing their stories. And we also know that when you get up and you bleed, when you tell your story, we get the cost. It’s like re traumatizing. And if you’re going to do that, and nothing’s going to happen. It’s like it happened again. Right? And so, I know you guys, I believe in you guys, or I wouldn’t have asked my friend to come, who I care about deeply. And It’s my prayer that this will be a healing experience for all of us. But especially for persons of color who have been hurt profoundly in the church. Just to tell you a little bit about Lainna’s credentials. She’s a pediatrician, who completed her MD at the University of Illinois at Chicago College of Medicine. She’s also a former homeschool mother, Master’s trained educator, a creative curriculum program called SCI Experience. And then she served on a whole bunch of different Christian organizations that we would recognize, although she said to make sure that I say she was the former, or formerly served on the Physician Resource Council at Focus on the Family. But I love Lainna dearly. And I’ll just warn you, she doesn’t mince words. I have no idea what she’s gonna say. Let’s welcome Lainna.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 08:38 Thanks, Julie, for your words, and your apology is very heartfelt. Thank you. One of the things you need to know that I’m just traumatized being in this space speaking to you. Okay? And I know that as we prayed for all of you this morning, how coming into a church space listening to some of the songs that we’re singing, how traumatizing that is to you. And I hold that in my heart and understand that pain. As I’ve walked through evangelical spaces there are many things that have been said to me. These are just a few in the fine collection of lines that have been delivered to me with good intentions. I don’t see color. You are so articulate. You’re playing the race card that I’m doing reverse discrimination and racism. Why can’t people get over talking about race? I don’t even care if you’re black, white, or purple. I’m not sure. Only purple people I’ve seen are dead. But one of my best friends is black. We live in a post racial world. We’ve had a black president, Oprah Winfrey, Michael Jordan. My family did not own slaves, and All Lives Matter. So, these are a few things. These are just a few of the sophomoric, unhelpful, and lacking insight retorts that I’ve received from my white brothers and sisters in Christ when discussing race with them. I’ve questioned myself over and over again, why am I here today? Up to this morning. I really didn’t think I could be here. A few months ago, as Julie said, when she asked me to speak at the RESTORE conference, I have struggled and questioned my need and your need to hear me speak. I have not spoken in front of a large audience since 2019. I swore off speaking in front of white Christian-like audiences, like someone giving up chocolate for Lent. I have been successful up until today to keep that pledge.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 11:08 This is a bit of a public coming out for me. Authentically, being myself, you’re the first people to see this. In the words of Maya Angelou. I no longer are beholding to the white gaze. I must have sat down 1000 times to write some kind of speech for you. I’ve struggled to share intimate parts of me, potentially to an audience and community like those in the past that caused me so much pain. It was then I was a respectable model Negro who provided a limited colorism to their homogeneity, I allowed myself to be squashed and to be strategically unassuming, as I would not convey the angry black woman or intimidate the fragility of the individuals around race. Now, I do not have the motivation or desire to wrap up this in joining into a neat tidy package sprinkled with various Bible verses and then joining hands to sing a rendition of Kumbaya making all feel comfortable with my threatening presence as an educated black woman. I’m going to be completely honest with you; discussing racial trauma in white evangelical spaces to me, as Julie was talking about, is like slitting my wrists for white folks to see me bleed as a bizarre form of curiosity and entertainment, while giving them the power to determine if my blood is red, debate the merits of the tool of my infliction and determine the depth of my wound and the level of pain I may be experiencing. All of this is based on their intellectualized bystander observations and their limited personal experiences. I’m tired of being treated when I talk about race, racism, unfair, unjust practices, and white Christian spaces as not being a credible witness. Being divisive and unloving in some way, my race disqualifies me, because I have a conflicted interest in my blackness, and that only white folks have the power to be the judge in jury in such matters.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 13:37 Julie assured me that this audience would be different. I told Julie, there is a great difference between white folk who have been hurt by the church and by the figures in Christian organizations, than the pain of being black in overwhelming Christian space. There are many nuances. Yes, Julie, they feel pain, isolation, and loss. But here’s the key difference. You see, Julie, you all were part of the family. You and they belonged until you didn’t. Me, however, while I was never part of the family, I was allowed to be in those spaces, tolerated as long as I did not upset the fragile balance or to critique or speak of the lack of people of color, in leadership or in lowly position in that space. I was to be unseen and unheard, and I was allowed to enjoy the delicious morsels that fell from the table where no seat was available for me. I felt a little bit like Charlie Brown ready to kick a football, getting into position to swing my leg, and Lucy quickly going from holding the ball and snatching it away again, and my landing square into my backside. I am so tired of not being believed, watching white folks finding no compelling reason to address the issue, feeling like they will lose something or be subjugated to the evils in demonic treatments that blacks have experienced. As if those like myself want to pay back every horror on white bodies that have been inflicted on us. I’ve watched white folks actively and complicitly be antithetical to the Gospel, denying the Imago Dei in all people. I’m tired of racism being viewed by white folk as a political issue outside the realm of the gospel and being chastised that we are one human race in a story.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 16:04 I hear God whispering, do you love me? A piece of me dies a bit, and my heart hardens repetitively, telling the story even if later a person starts to believe perhaps my story might be slightly credible. I have paid the price over and over. I feel God holding my hand,  will you trust me? I’ll be rejected and dismissed once again God. You are my child and so are they. But they hurt me so much. Look at all that I have lost. I have been hurt and othered all my life in predominantly white spaces. I have lost so much. I do not believe racism will ever go away. It is deeply rooted into the fabric and foundations and the DNA of this country.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 17:04 God can I really love these people? Proximity and the hugging it out doesn’t work. I fought this issue in the world and within my own home. I had no reprieve. I’ve got you, fall back into my arms. I will bear this. God, it’s so hard. But you have sent friends who have done the same who are not the same pigmentation of me. And many of them are here in this audience. They have borne with me the pain and loss that I’ve endured over the last several years. They have shown up with meals, encouragement, and prayer, sat beside me and held my hand on some of the darkest nights. They have listened to my disappointment and even my anger. They have been the hands and feet of Christ. Yes, Lord, I can love them. Because as I look around this room, I see so many of my friends. Although the pain is still there, hope has not been extinguished. I trust you, God, please stay by my side and walk with me and protect me.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 18:30 So, with that, I’m going to tell you a little bit about my story. But I can say something I couldn’t even say 72 hours ago. I love you guys. I have been hurt, but I still have hope. And I want to tell a little bit you know in this time. I’m like, How can I tell a hard story like this in 40 minutes? So, I’m gonna share a little bit about my story. I think parts of it that are  pertinent to this particular audience and my titular brothers and sisters. Unlike most African Americans, I’ve never been in an all-black space. I’ve never been part of a black church. I’ve always lived in white communities. And no, I was not adopted. Okay. So, growing up in white spaces, I also have had and continue to have education, because I just seem not to get enough. Right now, I’m getting a fourth degree from Wheaton College in evangelism and leadership. I decided to go there to see what white people were learning. And I got that done and knew in two weeks what was happening but dang I signed up for a three-year degree. That wasn’t well thought out. In my 30 years of formal education, I’ve only had two black instructors. A total of 12 weeks of those 30 years. I’ve learned to study white people learning to code switch and adapt in order to assimilate and be unassuming. My success depended on knowing how to operate in spaces. Their success I’ve learned culturally in medical school. And there have been times in my life where I was on the brink of wanting to join the Black Panther group and forever being away from white people, not black people, because Lord knows I haven’t been around them. So, I had an amazing mentor by the name of Dr. J. Hirsch, in medical school, he was a traditional Jewish man, amazing man. Had an incredible command of an audience. So, he was a child psychiatrist. And he always did the greeting at UIC, where I went to medical school for the incoming medical first year class. And he had a way that he could capture an audience. And I would be sitting in the audience with over 400 of my colleagues, and make you feel like you were the only one in that auditorium. And I was like, I don’t know what that is, but I want that. And one day he was offering, understanding the family as a patient. Anytime you treat a patient, you’re treating the whole family. And so, I decided I need to go to that class for this mysterious man. And I got into his class, it was just a four-week class. And one day I was walking down the hallway, and I was at that time, engaged to my white husband at the time. So, no one knew about that. We kept it kind of secret  I hung out with many of the black students, he came up to me and asked me if I would allow him to be my mentor. I looked at him like, really? I’m  like, I’m gonna have to think about this. I said, give me some time to think about this, and I walked off. I’m glad to report that I did take him up on his offer. And it was the most amazing time. Actually, my second child is named after Dr. J. Hirsch. He became my academic father; he used his privilege to stand beside me. I didn’t come from a whole line of doctors. I do have a brother that’s a doctor. And that’s something my parents instilled in us. But it wasn’t my background. And there were many times I struggled during medical school where I was close to being kicked out of medical school for academic failure. And he never did my work. I didn’t even know how to write a letter on my behalf. He would make me I would write it, he would edit it, he would make me write it over and over again until I got it right. And at one point, it was so bad that anytime I was called into the dean’s office for academic struggling, he would come with me. Didn’t say a word. I remember one time we were in the elevator, the doors closed, and I was exhausted, I was done. I was like,  I can’t fight anymore. And I remember when the doors close, that man took his fist and slammed it against the elevator door and let out a swear word that they better not eff with me. And at that point, his anger overwhelmed me. He freaked me out, oh, like, Man, this guy’s crazy. He wants it worse than I do. And he stood by my side. And that brought me to the brink of  going to the dark side.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 23:40 I spoke nationally in homeschool conferences all over the country. And I have a publisher that is, just Google my name, you’ll find out who it is. Who I worked with, who has my books. And I thought we believed the same thing. I was walking in any of these really big conservative organizations, even though I wasn’t up front or seen, I believed in the vision and mission. And as I watched the things that my children went through, and I watched my boys who were cute little biracial boys grow up to start looking like men, watching that they suddenly became dangerous. And I watched how I was treated in the world. And about five or six years ago, I said something’s wrong. So, I began to start speaking out about the racism and exclusion of people of color in leadership and the messaging of predominantly national organizations, ones that may have centered on white families using stock photos of black people to colorize their messaging to give the illusion that they were interested in diversity. I think the last thing that brought me back besides my great family from Tov that Julie spoke of, I’m part of that group of our Tov family, was I was bewildered just like you were. And I was like, these people’s orthodoxy do not match their orthopraxy. And I kept talking out, and I found myself at a conference called liberating. And check this. I did not put this on Facebook, liberating evangelism. decentering whiteness, okay. It’s like, what the heck is decentering whiteness? I don’t even know what that means. And so, I went into this conference., and at the time, I was already being kind of, excuse the pun, blacklisted in the evangelical circles. And I went into this conference, and I knew that no one that I associated would ever find themselves there. So, I walked into the hotel conference room, peeked my head in there, and a third of the people were white. I think I gasped out loud. And I stepped back, and I looked at the sign on the door. Yep. Liberating evangelism. decentering whiteness, why are there white people here?   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 26:20 And it was bizarre to me. And because no one in my evangelical circles would have been caught dead there. And so, I was fascinated as I watched the pulpit be shared by people of color of various nationalities. Now, this is the first time I was at a conference that I didn’t see a white male be a keynote speaker. And what I saw from the indigenous to Latinos, and Asians and other people that did it, it had a different flavor. So I was out of my mind, like observing this really weird world. And I asked one of the white individuals, why are you here? And they looked at me like I was asking a trick question. And they’re like, What do you mean? I said, “Did you not read my lips? Let me try this again. Why are you here? And they said, because the Bible says we should love our brother. And I like, seriously? Do you really believe that? Like, yeah, what else would that mean? And it was that adventure that I went into. And as I started sharing my circles, no one in this circle that I was at, had any idea really of Focus on the Family, or any of these organizations I associated in the homeschool world. And I’m like, Don’t you know who they are? I was like, kind of proud., because I was name dropping all those people. They’re like, I don’t know who these people are. And I was like, really? Because they told me they’re the center of Christianity. But you guys say you’re Christians, but you don’t know those people? They're like, nope, no clue. And so, after I would introduce myself, people would look at me at the conference like, and when those ASPCA commercials, you know, with the little dog in the cage shaking, they would look at me like really pathetically like, Oh, bless her heart, look at her. And I didn’t understand it at the time. And so, after one of the meetings, I was sitting on the couch just bewildered because I had not the language to describe what I was experiencing in the white evangelical space. And, lo Behold, this is how God works, a white woman stood and sat beside me. I was in my thoughts. She put her hand on my shoulder, and she goes, I know from which you come. And it’s just like, God, you know, and I was like, Oh, my gosh. And she’s like, Oh, I know all the people you’re talking about. I’m like you do because I was feeling kind of crazy. Like they didn’t really exist. And she goes, Yes, I’m a homeschool mom. I’m from Florida but I live in Philadelphia. And I traveled here because my husband gave me this gift. And I have two little boys, the woman was white, and I vow that I won’t raise them in the stuff that I was raised in. I was like, wow, this is a whole new world. And she goes, Well, where are you staying tonight? I’m like, I don’t know, this hotel is kind of expensive. I’ll find somewhere else to stay. She’s like, why don’t you stay with me? I said seriously, in your hotel room? I’m like It’s been a while since I’ve been in college and stuff. But so, I said, Okay, this is crazy, but I’ll stay in your room.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 29:40 So over two nights, this white woman mentored me. She’s like, and she didn’t chastise me. She’s like, okay, Lainna, you need a little help here. So, get a notepad out. Okay. And she’s like, let me give you names of some podcasts and some authors. She’s giving me black authors and other things, all the stuff that was taboo, and evangelical will start discovering James Cohn. And I started discovering the real Malcolm X and the real Martin Luther King. I started reading all these things. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, I didn’t even know about James Baldwin. Nothing in my education had prepared me for this stuff. And she bandaged my wounds that night and brought me from the brink of hate. So, I share that, in that she was willing to step into space with me and walk with me.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 30:39 And my third story of where my friends have come, the last three years, I have had a new friend group. They don’t know they just laugh when I tell them where I’ve been. And these organizations that I have served, and they’re like, that doesn’t sound like the Lainna we know. Like, I know, I’m kind of a different person now. And the way that they’ve come beside me, and the love that I’ve been shown has been unprecedented. So, I can’t thank my friends enough. One of the things that has been really grounding into me is I had the opportunity to go to Ghana this summer. It was life changing, I will never be the same. I am so grounded now. I went on something called a Sankofa. It’s called and Sankofa is from the language A Twi from Ghana, and it means loosely, go back, and get it. And so the whole idea, and this is me sitting on underneath a Sankofa is the bird is facing forward, its neck is backwards. And as it’s going forward, it has the ability to look back. So, the idea is to retrieve things of value from knowledge of the past, you have to go back to move forward. And living in a country where they’re trying to ban all black history as if it’s alternative American history. I have grown up in a world that has told me my people were nothing; that we were savages until we had the unfortunate issue of slavery. And well, that was kind of a bummer. But now we’ve had the opportunity to be civilized. There is no history that we’ve done anything significant in this country or anything. So, I’ve always felt lost. I felt I couldn’t understand who I was. And so, when I went to Africa, I felt an incredible grounding, and a sense of pride. I couldn’t find it here. But I found it there. I learned about my ancestry, that I’m the descendant of kings and queens, where the European Christianity is not nearly as old as the African Christianity. So, I’m learning all these things I never had an opportunity, and it has been life changing. So, I went to for the first time in my life to be in a place where people look like me. Okay? I get lost in the crowd. I’ve never had that happen to me before. And so, we were able to be entertained by African chiefs. And actually, one of the chiefs reminded me of my father. I’ve never been in a group where I could actually see me, and I saw this man, and he resembles my father. Both my parents died of COVID, a couple of years ago, two weeks apart. And I’m going to tell you a little bit about that in a moment. But to see this man, I just welled up in tears and crying because I could see myself for the first time.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 34:08 So going to Ghana, I’d never seen all these billboards with black folk. Okay? I think I saw one billboard with one white person, but everything from their leaders to their celebration to everything else, I saw me. But the interesting thing in Ghana, there’s no such thing as a black person. And so that kind of understanding that their race is invisible, helped me to understand how white people see their race as being invisible. So, to be able to relish in the joys of being a part of a community where people looked at me, looked like me was incredible.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 34:50 I also had the opportunity to visit the Cape Coast and the Gold Coast. And I went into two castles that housed my ancestors when they were stolen raped and taken from their homes. And these castles are on the Cape Coast, Elmira and a Cape Coast Castle. And these were built in the 1400s. This one, particularly by the Portuguese was a trading post that later became a place for black cargo. So, to walk in these buildings and these castles to try to embody and feel the pain of my ancestors was overwhelming. And as I walked through one of the uncommon things that you wouldn’t imagine belief, do you guys know what that is? This is in the middle of one of the castles. It’s a church. There were churches where white people would come while the suffering and horror happened in the same space. And this was very formative to me. At one point, we were merged with a group of white tourists. And it was interesting to watch the white tourists posture. Believe it or not, our whole group from Wheaton College was black. I don’t know how that happened. But all of us were black that were on the trip. And we were merged with the white group. And as we walked solemnly through the sacred places, we watched our white brothers and sisters act like they were on a field trip. They would push to get in the front to get a better view. As they talked about the carnage that was happening in the space, I remember, we went up to the governors quarters. And they were telling us in the space that the governor’s quarters was, it would house up to nine people. That same space down below, would house over 300 of enslaved Africans in the space, without food, any kind of hygiene. Everything happened in that space. And what did my white brothers and sisters say, as they were in that space? They were looking out the windows and talking about what a beautiful view there was. So, at that point, I was like, I’m done. I can’t be around this. And I was sitting next to one of the cannons that protected the castle, kind of reflecting on it and someone kind of caught that picture of me at the time. This is one of the things on the castle. It reads an everlasting memory of the anguish of our ancestors. May those who died Rest in peace, May those who returned find their roots. May humanity never again perpetrate such injustice against humanity. We the living vow to uphold this. So, my whole talk is supposed to be about surviving and thriving. I know about surviving; I have been in survival mode for some time. I’ve had in the last four years I’ve had a total knee replacement as a former athlete along with many health challenges, I’ve ventured into spiritual wilderness teasing out the Jesus of the Bible, versus the twisted Jesus that had no concern for justice. Those who have been harmed in the church, who were unable to refuse to see the imago Dei and all people. I navigated racial unrest and the silence of my white Christian friends and my former circles, who always had something to say about black bleeding and dying bodies laying the street about their character and had nothing to say about the character of a yellow haired man with a bad comb over sitting in the Oval Office. I lost my 30-year marriage to a white man. I haven’t gone public. My divorce was finalized about six months ago. And had a lot to do with this issue. My family has been shattered. I’m watching the politicization of mass while millions die across the world from COVID. And those last being considered expendable. Watching my dad die over FaceTime, due to COVID and not being able to hold his hand or be present as he drew in his last breath,. No funeral and then there’d have to be my mom who died two weeks later. This is just a few of the things that I’ve had to survive over the last four years. I’ve survived a predominantly white churches where my pain and the pain of others who look like me were ignored so that my brighten brothers and sisters could remain comfortable without self-examination.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 39:49 I understand surviving. Surviving is remaining alive. Some days, that was all I could do. It’s continuing to exist after coming close to dying and being destroyed. surviving is holding up holding on and enduring when very little is left in your tank. I know all of you guys understand that. At times surviving is all that we can do. God carried and continues to carry me and you through this. God brought friends into my life who bandaged my wounds and lifted me up when I had no strength on my own.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 40:28 So, I want to get a little geeky, I want to show you something about healing. So, you know, I’m a doctor, and I kind of like that science thing and stuff. So, I’m going to talk about healing by secondary intention. So, this is like a medical picture. So, bear with me, maybe you can see the analogy here is, there are two ways of healing, there’s called first intention versus second intention. So, when a surgeon goes in to repair something, and they make that clean cut, after they repair it, they bring the edges nicely together and sew things up. That leaves a minimal scar. Okay? I feel like what we’re all going through is healing by second intention. And what that is, is when you have a gaping wound, and let’s say it’s been open for some time, or it gets pulled open several times. After about six to eight hours, for more as close to six, we as physicians can’t sew that wound up because of the concern of infection. So, you let that wound stay open. And with that open wound, you have to care for that wound. A lot of times we have antibiotics, and we’ll pack that antibiotic in that wound that the dressings have to get changed often. And as that wound is going through the healing, it actually heals from the bottom up, okay? From the inside, out. And I see us kind of like that secondary intention, as that wounding first we have to start that healing inside of us as we work it out. And then, of course, the scarring from second intention healing is much greater. There’s much scarring, but it’s been restored in a new way. And I feel that a lot of what we’re going through is similar to that secondary healing.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 42:21 So, we talked about surviving, what about thriving? I started looking through this whole idea, what does it mean to be thriving? Am I thriving? I do feel like I have a little more. The fact that I’m here is a big testimony that I’m starting to feel God’s healing presence, and it’s working. And thriving means growing and developing, having resilience. It means you’re comfortable with yourself, you’re able to take control of your physical, mental, and spiritual health. And there’s an increased optimism for the future. Ah, I think I’m starting to thrive. It’s not that the pain is not there. It’s not even that I believe that this world will ever get better. But I know as we walk and take our wounds, and we heal from them, the power that GOD can do with us through our thriving. So, we have a thriving we have flourishing. Like how is thriving and flourishing different? And Acts 2:42-47, If you read that when it talks about the hospitality, it’s a place of a joyous community, where there’s a festival friends. And there are five domains in flourishing; one, happiness and satisfaction that’s gonna look a little different for each of us. It is having the mental and physical health, having meaning and purpose in your life, and character and virtue. Now I know we’ve had a lot of character training in evangelical spaces. So, this will sound bizarre, but that character in virtue cannot be fully embodied unless you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Okay? And most churches and evangelical spaces talk about God, Jesus, and the Holy Bible, because Lord, we won’t get close to the Holy Spirit because that gets a little radical and out of control. And that doesn’t go in our 20-minute sermon series that we’re trying to do. Okay? So, in order to have good character and virtue it has to be nurtured through the Holy Spirit. And lastly, close relationships, close good social relationships. And finally, how do we get there? Okay. In 2019, as I was swearing off white evangelical spaces like chocolate I feel like God laid four words on my heart about this and it seems to apply to all these hard circumstances and prior speakers have spoke of this. So, the four words, the first one is lament. This is not feeling sorry, this is not God created you white. It’s a beautiful thing. No one’s asking you to be anything else than what you’ve been graded. But understanding that hearing these issues, no one wants pity. It’s a legitimate lament, it’s not a sadness. It’s not an Oh! that’s so sad. A lament is a deep longing in pain and sorrow for something. Unless you can lament, you can’t move forward. So, it is a spotty window that someone has talked about that embodying it.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 45:45 The second word he sent me was liberate. Oh my gosh, this seems out of touch. Because of all that stuff I hear an evangelical word about liberating means once Jesus comes, then we’ll be good. No, this means as soon as you see the problem, you have to liberate that issue. You don’t wait till Jesus comes. I lament, there’s a problem, it needs to be corrected now. I love how we like use time; I was told this at a prominent school, Christian school, you know, Lainna, you’re just trying to rush us too much. We’re just going to need a little more time to change hearts. Like seriously? Wait, your Bible says, When you see something wrong, you correct it. How does racism take time? So, you have to liberate.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 46:37 Third thing is to reclaim because Lord knows, you have to, like clean that space out. And you have to reclaim it for Christ because of the distortion and the evilness that’s been pervaded there, that space has to be reclaimed, or that mess comes back. And lastly, you have to reimagine. This is not a little tweaking of systems, you know, like finding a couple more chocolate chips to put into  your little organization to try to give the issue that you have reformed yourself. This is a whole reimagining. It’s a whole reimagining of systems and purposes of what you’ve done. You can’t tweak something that’s already distorted, tainted and evil. So, wow, I’m doing good, it’s only 49 seconds. Yes. Okay, so I didn’t think I could do this.   LAINNA CALLENTINE M.Ed., M.D. 47:40 So, I just want to leave you I have a little bit of I don’t know if you guys know this book, I didn’t write it. Darn! I wasn’t thinking – I should have brought my own books and should have been holding them up like this. But this is not one  I wrote. But it’s by Kate Bowler and it’s The Lives We Actually Have. And I thought something and it’s 100 blessings for imperfect days. And there was a perfect blessing that I want to leave with you. It’s called for when you’ve been hurt by the church. God saw me walk away. I had to, for what was supposed to have been a refuge, a community of hope and purpose, mutual encouragement, distorted all I understand you to be. Oh God, lead me to the heart of love so I might find the healing I need and protect the reverence I have for you. For you do not consume, but rather feed, you do not destroy but build up. You do not abandon your little ones but insist that they belong in your arms. Enfolded here, I see you now. The God who loves us to the end. For though I walked away, you didn’t. You found me and will lead me. Let’s now find the others. Thank you.   Julie Roys  49:17 Will again that’s Dr.Lainna Callentine speaking at RESTORE 2023 and Lainna, thank you so much for sacrificing yourself on our behalf to bring this message. And as you explained, there is no quick fix to racism. We need to lament deeply. We need to totally reimagine our systems and our purposes. And that’s something we’re committed to doing at The Roys Report. And I don’t know exactly what that entails, but I am confident that the Holy Spirit does. And we are committed to listening to the Spirit and to following the spirit. So please pray for us as we continue to take Lainna’s message to heart. And as we continue to discern how to practically walk out our conviction that every human being is a bearer of God’s image and worthy of equal respect and love. And I hope you’ll do the same. There’s so much to process in what Lainna said. But dealing with racism is not optional. Any more than following Christ command to love each other is optional. So, let’s commit to doing that together. And again, thank you so much for listening and supporting our podcasts and our mission here at The Roys Report. As I’ve noted before, we don’t have any big donors or advertisers, we simply have you, the people who care about abuse and corruption in the church and want to expose it. So, if you’re able, would you please consider giving a gift to support our ministry? And this month when you donate $30 or more, we’ll send you a copy of The Great DeChurching. This is a great resource exploring what’s causing the current exodus out of the church, and what can be done to stop the bleed. To donate and to get the book just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you’re blessed and encouraged.   Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/hteO426dZ6cMen need sex. And it's their wives' job to give it to them—unconditionally, whenever they want it, or these husbands will come under Satanic attack. Stunningly, that's the message contained in many Christian marriage books. Yet, research shows that instead of increasing intimacy in marriages, messages like these are promoting abuse. In this edition of The Roys Report, featuring a talk from our recent Restore Conference, author Sheila Wray Gregoire provides eye-opening insights based on her and her team's extensive research on evangelicalism and sex. Out of a desire for evangelicals' conversations about sex to be healthy, evidence-based, and rooted in Christ, Sheila and her team have analyzed many popular Christian books on sex. Many teach that men are incapable of not objectifying women. And instead of training men to control their urges, these books teach that women must save these men. If a husband struggles with porn, for example, it's his wife's job to give him more sex so he can go cold turkey. If a husband is abusive to his wife, it's his wife's job to pray the abuse away. And if you're a single woman, it's your job to dress in such a way that your body never “intoxicates” a man.With messages like these, is it any wonder that abuse victims often feel like it's their fault if someone hurts them? Is it any wonder that pastors like John MacArthur can convince wives that it's her duty to stay with a man who abuses her and their children? As Sheila explains, the patterns of abuse we're seeing in the church today are a symptom of these toxic evangelical teachings. And to solve the problem of abuse, we need to analyze and challenge these unbiblical teachings. Guests Sheila Wray Gregoire Sheila Wray Gregoire is an author, podcaster, and researcher into evangelicalism and sex. Her goal through Bare Marriage, a popular podcast and ministry, is to change the evangelical conversation about sex to be healthy, evidence-based, and rooted in Christ. She lives in Ontario, Canada, with her husband. They have two adult daughters and two grandbabies. Learn more at BareMarriage.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys, SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE Julie Roys  00:05Men need sex and it’s their wives job to give it to them unconditionally whenever they want it, or these husbands will come under satanic attack. Stunningly, that’s the message contained in many Christian marriage books. Yet research shows that instead of increasing intimacy and marriages, messages like these are promoting abuse. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and what you’re about to hear is an eye-opening talk by Sheila Ray Gregoire at our latest RESTORE conference. Sheila is an author and podcaster who’s done extensive research on evangelicalism and sex. And what she’s discovered is that many evangelical books teach an unbiblical message that men are incapable of not objectifying women. And instead of training men to control their urges, these books teach that women must save these men. If a husband struggles with porn, for example, it’s his wife’s job to give him more sex so he can go cold turkey. If a husband is abusive to his wife, it’s his wife’s job to pray the abuse away. And if you’re a single woman, it’s your job to dress in such a way that your body never intoxicates a man with messages like these. Is it any wonder that abuse victims often feel like it’s their fault if someone hurts them? Is it any wonder that pastors like John MacArthur can convince wives that it’s their duty to stay with a man that abuses them and their children? As Sheila explains in this important talk, the abuse that’s rampant in the church is just a symptom of this toxic teaching so prevalent in evangelicalism. And unless we address this false teaching, we’ll never solve the problem of abuse. So, I’m very excited to share Sheila’s eye-opening talk with you.   Julie Roys  01:57 But first, I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go toJUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  03:02 Well, again, you’re about to hear a talk by Sheila Gregoire on how evangelical teachings on sex promote abuse. Sheila is the founder of BAREMARRIAGE.COM. She’s also the author of several popular books, including The Great Sex Rescue, and She Deserves Better. Sheila’s goal is to change the evangelical conversation about sex to be healthy, evidence based and rooted in Christ. And so, I’m so excited to share this message that Sheila gave at the RESTORE conference.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  03:32 It was a Friday afternoon in January of 2019, and I was sitting on my yellow chair in my living room trying to figure out how to procrastinate. I had a migraine, and I didn’t want to work, and so I was on Twitter. And I was reading a conversation between some women arguing whether or not they needed love or respect. And I thought, well, I’m a woman and I need respect. And so, I started chiming in and we were getting all spicy. And then I thought, I have that book. And I had never read it. So, Love and Respect, written by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs, who got his PhD from somewhere, I don’t know. Anyway, it’s based on the idea that women need love. and men need respect. Oh, actually, no, it’s not. The subtitle is, the love she most desires, the respect he desperately needs. So, she has desires, and he has desperate needs. But I realized I have that book and I’ve never read it. And so, I thought this is a great way to procrastinate. So, I went, and I got it, and I opened to the sex chapter because I’m kind of the sex lady and that’s what I do. It was only about 12 pages long. And that was when the nuclear bomb went off in my living room. Because I read to my horror, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have, and that need is for physical release. So, if he doesn’t get physical release, he will come under satanic attack. And through that chapter, he keeps referring to sex as a man’s physical release. There was not a single word about intimacy. There was not a single word about women feeling pleasure, too.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  04:07 So, I called my team, and we freaked out a bit. And we decided to write a post on our blog about the way that the book handled sex. And that post got so many eyeballs that we spent a whole week on love and respect. And over that week, we had email upon email, and comment upon comment about how that book had enabled abuse in their marriage. Working with me, was a young woman in her late 20s at the time, who has a master’s in epidemiology and is the statistician, but she was home with her baby. And so, she was just working remotely part time for me. And she said, you know what we should do Sheila? we should create a mixed-methods, qualitative analysis of the comments, and we should send it into Focus on the Family, who publishes the book, because maybe they don’t know. Maybe they don’t realize how harmful this is. And so, over the next few weeks, Joanna proceeded to do that. And we sent it to Focus. I knew Jim Daly; I had been on Focus on the Family several times. And we sent a nice letter about how harmful the book had been. And we never heard back. And so, Joanne said to me, “You know what I should do? I should go back and get my PhD so that I could do a study of how messages in the evangelical church are hurting women’s marital and sexual satisfaction. And I said, Joanna, I bet I could get a publisher to pay us to do it. And that is what we did.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  06:59 Until that day, I had never actually read another Christian book on sex and marriage. I mostly just wrote my own stuff. I was really scared of plagiarizing. But then we decided that we needed to open our eyes and see what was really going on. So, we surveyed 20,000 women for our book, The Great Sex Rescue. It’s the largest study of evangelical women’s marital and sexual satisfaction that’s ever been done. Did any of you take that study? Were any of you in mind, thank you. I know that was like half an hour of your life you can’t get back. I appreciate it very, very much. We’re doing a new survey that will be out in about two weeks. So, if you follow me, we will be putting out soon we will have a great need for people to take that one as well. But we surveyed 20,000 women measuring how various evangelical messages affected their marital and sexual satisfaction. And what we found was that there was four big messages in the church that really hurt women. And these messages are not biblical. They’re not from Jesus. They are what we have decided, as a church collectively are true. And we’ve done great harm with them.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  08:20 And so those messages are a woman is obligated to give her husband sex when he wants it. 39% of women that we surveyed entered marriage believing that. All men struggle with lust, it’s every man’s battle. A woman should have frequent sex with her husband to keep him from watching pornography. And boys will push your sexual boundaries and so girls need to be the gatekeeper. The sum total of those messages does great harm. These were all widely taught, widely believed and hugely destructive. We also did a survey of 3000 men a year later, and guess what? The same messages hurt men’s marriages too. These are universally bad. And yet, when we took a look at 13 of evangelicalism’s bestselling sex and marriage books, these are everywhere. There were only three books that we looked at, that actually scored well on our rubric, the vast majority of them of the books that we looked at scored in the harmful category, including Love and Respect, which scored zero out of 48, literally. Even Every Man’s Battle did better, it got nine. Last year, we did a survey as Julie was telling you of another 7000 evangelical women, this time looking at how messages that we give to teenage girls, end up hurting girls long term. And the same messages that we studied before? Yep, they do harm, but we added some new ones, like the modesty message. When we tell girls, you need to be careful what you wear so that you don’t cause one of your brothers to stumble. Well, that makes her feel like her body is a threat to her. Because by no fault of her own, he could look at her and have these bad thoughts. And then because he can’t control himself, he could end up hurting her. And so that message makes us feel like our bodies actually cause ourselves to be put into harm.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  10:42 Research shows that far too many of our common relationship teachings in evangelical culture are hurting us. And I have been trying to sound the alarm on this. And while those in this room are likely to hear it, the powers that be often don’t. This has become a grassroots movement, which I think tends to be the way that Jesus works. He doesn’t tend to talk to the churches, the big places, the big people in power. He sets up 12 disciples and all of the women that were traveling with him, and they go, and they set the world on fire. And that’s what we found in the reception to our books, which are actually selling quite well, is that people want to hear this, even if the powers that be won’t talk about it.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  11:38 We have painted men in the church as being created by God, to not be able to do anything but objectify women, which by extension, means that it is women’s responsibilities to save men. And then we’ve somehow managed to sell the message that this is the way that God intended it. So let me give you a few quotes. And I want to do a big trigger warning here, and I’m quite serious about this is that some of you, it might be good to step out of the room. All I’m going to be doing is reading you things from our bestsellers, but they’re not pretty. And so, if you feel like you need to step out of the room, now would be a good time. But let me tell you what Every Man’s Battle said. If you’re looking for the reason for sexual sin among men, we got there naturally, simply by being male. The same authors repeat, men just don’t naturally have that Christian view of sex. So, I guess women were created with more of the Holy Spirit than men, I don’t know. And how then, are men supposed to quit lusting and watching porn? Well, they have the solution. The book, the original edition of the book, told women when he stops cold turkey be like a merciful vial of methadone for him. It explains that well before when you were lusting, you may have been going to your wife for five bowls of sexual gratification a week. Now you’ll be going to her for 10. And she will be happy about this. I don’t know how you can write a book and know so many little about women, but nevertheless.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  13:37 So, think about that. We are the methadone for our husband’s sex addictions. And what is it that methadone does? Yeah, methadone is basically something which numbs you so that you don’t go after the thing you really want. And that’s how they raised a whole generation of boys and men to think of girls. That book series has sold 4 million copies. Or how about this? This Gary Thomas and Deborah Phyllida echoed their sentiment in their 2021 book Married Sex, where they encouraged women to send nude photos to their husbands so that neurologically his attention will be focused on her and not other women or porn. And they didn’t really ever talk about the problems of revenge porn, and they minimized any concerns that she may have about cementing an objectified view of women in porn. Even if it’s not about sex, we get the message in our best sellers that we’re just supposed to pray the abuse away. Women you have so much power over your man. Don’t you understand that? So, in Stormy Omartian’s book, Power of a Praying Wife, she has this quote, which is echoed throughout the book. You can submit to God in prayer whatever controls your husband, and she lists a number of things, including alcoholism, and abusiveness, and pray for him to be released from it. That book sold 10 million copies of women being told if he’s abusive, you can pray it away. You just need to pray more.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  15:27 I bet John MacArthur likes that one. I think the evangelical version of the gospel too often looks like this. Jesus saves women, so the women can save men. And it’s even in the little things. Last year, the Gospel Coalition put out an Instagram reel, where Ligon Duncan claimed that wives can’t expect their husbands to do risky things, unless their wives unconditionally respect their husbands first. And what are these risky things that a woman can’t expect her Christian husband to do? Pray, read the Bible, think about life from a Christian point of view. You cannot expect your husband to do these risky things that you by the way are already doing unless you first give him unconditional respect. This really quietly puts the wife in the leadership role, while having to pretend that it’s the husband who’s actually the one leading. Honestly, it’s like the bar is so low, it is in the basement, isn’t it? Over and over again, our evangelical teaching tells everybody that it is impossible to expect men to act honorably. Tim  LaHaye, in The Act of Marriage, told a story about Aunt Matilda, and he berates Aunt Matilda for telling her niece how terrible sex was just as her niece was getting married. But then he goes on to explain that on her wedding night, Aunt Matilda’s husband held her down kicking and screaming and raped her and continued to do this throughout the marriage. Then Tim LaHaye talks about Aunt Matilda, and her equally unhappy husband. He called the rapist equally unhappy as his rape victim. That book published by Zondervan has gone through four different editions, and nobody ever took out that anecdote. That sold two and a half million copies. His Needs/Her Needs, which I think has also sold two and a half million copies, has a line in there where a 32-year-old executive complains, I feel like I’m begging her or even raping her, but I can’t help it. I have to make love. And Willard Harley, the author uses that to explain that men just have a really high sex drive, and women need to understand that. And then, of course, there’s For Women Only. Shanti Feldon based her book supposedly on research. Which is why I think people have given these books more credence than they really need to have. I’m going to give you an example of her survey question, which has become fundamental in evangelicalism and for several different books. But Emerson Eggerichs actually based his book Love and Respect on the foundational survey question that Shanti used in her book For Women Only, which came out in the same year, 2004, as Love and Respect. So, Shanti asked, I think it was about 450 men, would you prefer to be alone and unloved or inadequate and disrespected? Okay? So, you could be alone and unloved or inadequate and disrespected. 72% of men said that they would prefer to be alone and unloved than inadequate and disrespected. And so, she took this to say that men want respect more than they want love. And that is what Emerson Eggerichs used to base his ideas on for Love and Respect.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  15:39 They never asked women; think about that. A whole doctrine of how men need respect and women need love. They never asked women. When other people, other survey people asked women the same question, 68% of women chose alone and unloved as well. There is no gender difference. But beyond that, okay, I’m just gonna get a little survey geeky with you for a sec here, okay? Alone and unloved, inadequate, and disrespected. That’s what’s called a double-barreled question where you don’t know whether they’re responding to alone or unloved or inadequate and disrespected. When my son in law looked at that, he said, well, the one that I would hate to be the most is inadequate, because alone unloved and disrespected are all how other people are treating me, inadequate is how I feel about myself. So, I would choose alone and unloved because I don’t want to feel inadequate, because inadequate and disrespected are not synonyms. That is the state of research that evangelicalism based a foundational doctrine, love, and respect, that we hear everywhere. And church, we simply have to do better. That’s not okay.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  21:32 Now, there are many other things and for women only that Shanti Felden, that I find quite problematic. But one of the worst is this line, when she’s talking about the need that men have to feel unconditional respect, she says, If you are wondering if you’ve crossed the disrespect line, watch for anger. So if you’re wondering if you’ve disrespected him, watch if he gets angry. So, your husband’s anger is a sign that you have done something wrong, rather than a red flag of a behavior problem or abuse. And again, her book series has also sold 2 million copies. The worst thing though, is that these messages are not just being given to adults, they’re also being given to children. And for our book, She Deserves Better, where we looked at the messages that were given to evangelical teen girls, we found horrific things that were said to girls as young as eight. And I would like to show you something from the Secret Keeper Girl curriculum by Dannah Gresh. Secret Keeper Girl became an event that was seen by about a million little girls and their moms around North America. It’s now called True Girl. So, they’ve rebranded but a lot of the messages are still the same. And in that curriculum, she encouraged girls to take the Raise and Praise test, okay. So, here’s what you do, you put your arms up in the air. And if any belly shows, that’s bad. And the reason is because bellies are intoxicating. Later in this curriculum, she has a conversation that mothers are supposed to have with their daughters to explain what this means. And you’re supposed to talk to your daughter and explain that to be intoxicated means like being under anesthetic or being drunk when you’re out of control. And God created our bodies to intoxicate men. But you are only supposed to intoxicate one man, your future husband, and so you need to make sure that you’re not intoxicating to anyone else. She told eight-year-old girls, that their bellies have the power to make adult men get out of control. And we did nothing about it. We took our little girls to these events, and they internalized this message. I could go on and on.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  24:40 Whether it’s sheet music by Kevin Lehman, telling women that it’s a good thing to have sex when you feel forced and want to shove him off of you. Or explaining that your period is a very difficult time for your husband. I’m not kidding. And so, it’s important to give him sexual favors during your period or when you’re postpartum so that he’s not tempted to watch porn. I can tell you about Every Man’s Battle, telling women that if your husband demands or coerces sex more than once a day, that’s a bad thing. So, there’s a quote, I guess that’s acceptable of coercion. I don’t know. The abusive messages and our evangelical resources are horrifying, and honestly, it seems endless.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  25:33 But the sum total of these teachings is that men are entitled to women’s bodies. Men deserve unconditional deference free from being challenged for any bad behavior. And men cannot be expected to act honorably, or even safely. So, when men do harm, it’s likely because some woman somewhere hasn’t done her job. It’s not hard to imagine how disastrous this can be. In a survey done by the Institute for Family Studies, about 27% of highly religious men who believe in complementarianism, or believe in male headship, claim that they have been violent with their current partner. Marital rape is more difficult to measure because it depends on the definition of marital rape. But from what we’ve seen in the literature, and in our own results, it looks like a rate of about 10% with a very narrow definition, to about 25% of evangelical marriages if you include things like obligation sex, which lead to trauma. So, this is what’s going on in the pews. One quarter of the women in our churches are currently victims of abuse. And a lot of that is caused by our messages which prop up and enable abuse.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  27:17 And it’s not only abuse. There’s also rates of sexual pain. This is one of our big research areas that we’re trying to dig down deep into. Because it’s been known for about 50 years in the literature that evangelical women suffer from sexual pain. Specifically, a sexual pain disorder called vaginismus, which is when the muscles of the vaginal wall contract and become really tight, so that penetration becomes really difficult, if not impossible. Even things like inserting tampons can become difficult or pelvic exams. And we’ve known evangelical women suffer from this at way higher rates than the general population. But what we haven’t known is why. And it was assumed that it’s just because well, they’re just ashamed of sex. That’s not actually what we found. We discovered two big things that are highly highly correlated with vaginismus. The first is the obligation sex message. So, when women enter marriage, believing in obligation sex, whether or not their husbands do, it's just what you have internalized, your chance of experiencing vaginismus increases to almost the same statistical effect as if you had been abused. Because our bodies interpret obligation sex as trauma. Because abuse says, you don’t matter, he gets to use you however you want. And so does obligation sex. The other big thing that’s correlated with it is the modesty message as a teenager. So, when a girl has internalized that she is at least partially responsible for keeping boys from sinning., she’s also far more likely to experience vaginismus. This is our problem. It’s not nice to talk about it, but this is our problem. We have an incidence rate of about 22.6% of evangelical women and in the broader population is closer to seven or eight. This is what we have done, and it’s largely because of what we have taught people.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  29:32 And that’s why I am so passionate about changing the way we talk about sex and marriage in the church. Because what we have done has had real world effects. It has caused abuse to rise. It has caused actual physical changes in our bodies. And there’s other research which has shown that it actually solidifies porn use and makes it much harder to stop. We need to talk about this in a different way. And what’s been so exciting to me as we have done our work is that people have told me again and again, that when they read our stuff, they start to recognize abuse in other places too. Like, once you start to see, oh, this isn’t okay, in one area, you see it everywhere. One woman told us that it’s like peeling an onion, you know, and you take off one layer. And then you see it again and again. Another woman said, you know, I read The Great Sex Rescue, and I recognized that there was some really abusive patterns in my marriage. And thank God, my husband saw it, too, and we’re on the road to recovery. But it wasn’t just that. I also in that same week, realized that my boss was sexually harassing me, and I stood up to him, and I reported him. And we left our church. Because when you see abuse in one area, you’re able to recognize it in others.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  31:19 This is gonna sound weird to say, I don’t actually care about sex that much. Like, I know, this is my whole life, and I know this is all I write about. I don’t actually care that much. You know what I care about? I care about people thriving. I care about emotional health and wholeness. I care about ending abuse. But there’s a lot of people that are doing that work of calling out abuse, and you know how hard it is to get people to listen to you. You know, it’s like banging your head on the wall, and they just don’t want to hear. And on the other side, there’s a lot of people addressing the theology of men and women in the church, and how harmful that theology has been to many women. And I can’t speak Greek, my husband reads the New Testament in Greek, but I don’t, you know, I can’t tackle it on that side. But you know, the one thing people like talking about? sex. Everybody wants to talk about sex. And so, this has been our way in. We’ve been able to open up that conversation about sex, so that people will listen. Even people who, maybe you’re normally in more fundamentalist spaces, because everybody wants good sex. And when you can tell them, hey, here’s the way forward, here’s what we need, here’s why women need to matter too. When they start to see it in that one area, then they’ll start to see it in others. And I think that’s where we can work together. You know, I know so many of you are recovering from church hurt, and you’re wondering where to go and how to move forward. And I’ve been there. But I believe that as we speak up about this stuff, we’re going to empower others, that they can speak up too, and we’re going to cause a grassroots movement.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  33:27 I spent a lot of years hitting my head against the wall, trying to convince Focus on the Family to change. It doesn’t work. Interestingly, they’re now using all of my talking points in their Instagram reels. They’re just not referencing me. It’s pretty funny. But so, you know, that’s good. You know what? I don’t care if you don’t reference me, as long as you’re actually starting to teach healthy stuff, do not trust Focus for healthy stuff. Okay? They might be saying a few good things. And I’m glad about that. But this is not an endorsement. But you know, things can change slowly from the grassroots. But we’re not necessarily going to get the big things to change. And it used to really frustrate me when I couldn’t get the big organizations to change, when I couldn’t get the megachurch pastors to listen to me, when I couldn’t get the big media organizations to listen to me. When nobody big would interview us about The Great Sex Rescue, even though we did the biggest study that’s ever been done. Even though we spoke at the American Physiotherapy convention because pelvic floor physiotherapists think we’re groundbreaking. And we can’t get  the big names in the church to listen. But maybe that’s because they’re not supposed to. Because Jesus works at the margins. And I think Jesus is working at the margins here. And I know so many of you are hurting and a lot of It is because of this crap that was in so many of the books that taught you that it’s your fault if someone hurts you, and that you’re just not praying enough. And don’t you know that Jesus put up with it? So, what are you to say that you shouldn’t have to put up with this? You should have the mind of Christ. And you’ve heard those messages. But let me tell you that Jesus wants to tell you that you matter, that you matter.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  35:33 One of my co-authors on The Great Sex Rescue said that we could sum up the whole book with just four words, women are people too. And we are. And men are people too too; we all matter. But when we live in a church culture, which is trying to be based on power instead of on love, and emotional wholeness, we’re going to end up with abuse. And we’re going to end up with hurt. And so, as we’re fighting abuse, my plea, if I can make a plea, is that we also fight that which underpins abuse. That we don’t just fight abuse, but we start calling out the teaching that has enabled it. Because when we call out the teaching, we make it far more likely that people will recognize abuse in other spaces, too.   SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE  36:35 One of the things that so disappointed me in the Mars Hill podcast series, I don’t know how many of you listen to that. Some of you, yeah, they just didn’t go far enough. They treated it like Mark was the problem. Mark was a symptom. All of the things that one episode they did about women, all of the things Mark preached about women, were in all of our best sellers. I could have pointed you to everything he said was in all of our bestsellers that are still our bestsellers. Mark is not the problem; Mark’s awful, but Mark is not the problem. The problem is that we have this whole culture of teaching that enables the Mark’s to get power. If we didn’t have this teaching underpinning it, if we didn’t have these ideas of power and kingdom, then there would not be a Mark Driscoll who would have that kind of power, there would not be a John MacArthur who told Eileen Gray she needed to go back to her abusive husband. And so, as we fight abuse, and I am so grateful to those of you who are out there in the trenches doing that, I pray that you will also join me in some of my mission too, in fighting the teaching that is given about marriage and sex that is underpinned abuse and enabled it to flourish. Because I think, until we can eradicate that teaching, we’re just going to be playing abuser whack-a-mole. Thank you.   Julie Roys  38:12 Wow, such an important message. And I’m so grateful for Sheila’s ministry, and the way that she’s addressing the root of the abuse problem in our churches. And I’m grateful for you too, who listen and support these podcasts and help us get these important messages out. As I’ve noted before, many ministries charge for conference talks, but because of your continued generosity, we’ve been able to make these messages available free of charge. And I’m just so grateful to the hundreds of you who donate to The Roys Report. As I’ve said before, we don’t have any large donors or advertisers, we simply have you the people who care about abuse victims and want to help. If you appreciate this ministry and want to support us, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. And in January, if you give a gift of $30 or more, we’ll send you a copy of The Great Dechurching. This is a great resource exploring what’s causing the current exodus out of the church, and what can be done to stop the bleed. So again, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. 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Guest Bios Show Transcript America is experiencing the largest and fastest religious shift in its history—greater than the First and the Second Great Awakening and every revival in the U.S. combined. But instead of a massive shift into the church, what we're seeing is a mass exodus. In this edition of The Roys Report, you'll hear from Michael Graham, co-author of The Great DeChurching: Who's Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will It Take to Bring Them Back. Based on the most comprehensive study of people leaving the church in America, the book gives keen insights into this phenomenon. You'll learn why people are leaving the church, which demographic groups are leaving in the greatest numbers, and what can be done to stop the bleed. And the results may surprise followers of this podcast. Though much of our reporting focuses on corruption and abuse in the church, these issues were not the greatest factors people cited for leaving. The reasons cited were much more mundane than you might think. We are living in a unique moment—what research says is the greatest “dechurching” in nearly 250 years of this nation. This exodus doesn't just affect society or public expressions of faith; it impacts family relationships and how people relate to each other. Tune in for a highly informative conversation that examines the state of the church and why restoring her matters. Guests Michael Graham Michael Graham is program director for The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. He is also the executive producer and writer of As In Heaven and co-author of The Great Dechurching. He received his MDiv at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando. He is a member at Orlando Grace Church. He is married to Sara, and they have two kids Show Transcript SPEAKERSMICHAEL GRAHAM, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04America is experiencing the largest and fastest religious shift in its history greater than the first and the second Great Awakening and every revival in the US combined. But instead of a massive shift into the church, what we’re seeing is a mass exodus, and the greatest de churching in nearly 250 years. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and on this podcast you’ll hear from Michael Grant, co- author of the new book The Great Dechurching. Based on the most comprehensive study of people leaving the church in America, the book gives keen insights into this phenomenon. You’ll learn why people are leaving the church, which demographics are leaving in the greatest numbers, and what can be done to stop the bleed. And the results may surprise followers of this podcast. Though much of our reporting focuses on corruption and abuse in the church, these issues were not the greatest factors people cited for leaving. The reasons were much more mundane than you might think. And we’ll dig into those in just a minute.   Julie Roys  01:05 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top-ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:09 Well, again, joining me is Michael Grant, Program Director at the Keller Center for Cultural apologetics. He’s also the executive producer and writer for the As In Heaven podcast. And he’s also a member at Orlando Grace Church where Jim Davis, who’s the co-author for his latest book, The Great Dechurching. He is also a teaching pastor. So, Michael, welcome. It’s a pleasure to have you join me.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  02:31 So good to be here with you, Julie.   Julie Roys  02:32 So, Michael, your book is based on an extensive study that sought to prove or disprove this thesis that America’s in the middle of the largest and greatest religious shift in its history. And what you discovered is pretty sobering. Would you tell me about that?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  02:47 Yeah. So, I mean, the Cliff’s Notes version is that 40 million adult Americans have left houses of worship, across all religious traditions. And by and large, almost all of that has occurred in the last 30 years. So, from the moment of Nirvana’s Smells Like Teen Spirit to today, 40 million people have gone from, you know, the various pews of all religious traditions. Now, most of those are out of what you’d call Christian traditions, about 15 million of that out of evangelical traditions, and then about another 20 million out of Roman Catholic and mainline traditions, the other traditions are a lot smaller. So, we weren’t really sure what we would be looking at in terms of why there were two prevailing storylines, depending on what your kind of media diet looked like. If your media diet looked a little bit left leaning, then the story was basically that people had been leaving houses of worship primarily because of mistakes made by those institutions themselves. So, this would be things like racism, misogyny, abuse, political syncretism, clergy scandal. If your media diet leaned a little bit to the right, the prevailing story was basically a story of secularism, or sexual revolution, progressivism, people are leaving houses of worship, because they’re no longer worshipping the Triune God, they’re worshipping some other, you know, forms of non-Christian things. The reality is that you can find several million people who would fit both that first story or that second story. However, most of the people might have elements of either of those two stories in there, but most of them left for really, really boring reasons. So, the challenge is like not necessarily saying that story A or story B is wrong. There’s actually a story C that is not as interesting. That’s also there and is kind of  the water that we’re all kind of in is the number one reason why people you know, left houses of worship, and stop going on at least a monthly basis. So that’s how we defined the charging somebody who used to go to church, or house of worship at least monthly, consistently, and now less than once per year. So even if you go to church on Christmas Eve, or Christmas, or Easter or Christmas and Easter, we still counted you in our study as being churched. So, if you think the 40 million number sounds scary, you know, if you take all the Christmas and Easter people out.   Julie Roys  05:32 That is like a really, really low bar.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  05:35 There’s many, many more people. But basically, the number one reason I moved, right after that is, attendance was inconvenient. After that is some kind of marriage, divorce, new child, or some other significant family change. After you kind of get past some of those reasons, you start to get into some of the reasons where people experience some more pain or some more friction, either at the individual level, or at the institutional level. But it really kind of looks like of the 40 million people who left, 30 million left, what we called casually, and about 10 million left as casualties. And so, 10 million people is a lot of people, okay, I don’t want to downplay at all the people who have significant church hurt at the individual, institutional or both levels. But there’s also just kind of 30 million people where it just kind of looks like, okay, well, just the inertia of American life and their rhythms and habits just kind of had them floating on.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  06:45 Now, the interesting thing about really, across the board, both the people who left casually and unintentionally, as well as the people who left as casualties and left highly intentionally, most of them are willing to return today to a house of worship of some sort. Some of them were willing to go back to exactly what they left and some of them are not willing to go back to exactly what they left, but willing to go to something that we would all consider as being part of the historic Christian tradition.   Julie Roys  07:18 Yeah, I was surprised when I read it, how many people just dropped out because well, even COVID. Like, they just got out of the habit. And I guess we’re seeing that. I mean, I know that’s a phenomenon. But it’s stunning in some ways that something that you would expect to be so central to a person’s life, that they would give it up just because it’s inconvenient, or they get out of the habit of going. And yet, maybe that speaks to where the spiritual state before that happened. But that was surprising, I thought finding of the study.   Julie Roys  07:48 I thought too just thinking through what’s at stake, which you do kind of in that first section relationally, what’s happening, you know, between parents and their kids, and you had this one line which struck me because I’m over 50. And it says, anecdotally, we know, of almost no parents over the age of 50, who don’t have at least one child who is dechurched. And I’ve got three kids. I guess I read that, and I just was very grateful, because none of my kids are dechurched. But I mean, certainly, wow, we felt like we have been in a war for their soul at different times within their lives. And just, by the grace of God, I think, have seen them embrace faith. But there are a lot of things in here that remind me of the situation that we’re in. I mean, this between parents and their children. And of course, I have so many friends, I mean, that are just beautiful parents and probably did a 10 times better job than I did. And they’re dealing with just such heartache over their kids leaving their faith leaving the church. But even you know, it’s culturally how fractured we are mentally. I mean, talk about some of these impacts on who we are as communities and as Americans that are really going to be impacted as we see this begin to play out.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  09:15 Let’s start at the purely secular level. Why would I care about this if even I was an atheist or agnostic or a nothing in particular? The first thing I would say is you should care about this phenomenon, because it’s going to at least sociologically reorder many aspects of American culture and society. How many different trends can you think about that impact one in six adult Americans? There aren’t many. And so, the implications of this will have implications in terms of politics and political voting groups. It will have an impact on the social safety net in our country. There are certain studies that have shown that as much as 40% of  America’s social safety net, the social safety net being the kinds of things that are there for people, when they’re, at their hardest or most challenging moments, that 40% of the social safety net in this country is basically coming from religious nonprofits. And so, when you see one in six adult Americans, you know, opt out of those kinds of ties, thicker ties, and local ties to local religious institutions, that’s going to have an impact for sure, on the social safety net. And I don’t think that that’s in the interest of either common good or human flourishing.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  10:41 We estimate in the book that that’s probably about $25 billion that just exited out of the religious nonprofit world. I mean, you’re talking about $1.4 trillion dollars, in terms of the total income of the people who have disconnected from local churches. A lot of implications for institutions, certainly, you’re going to see churches and houses of worship that are going to struggle, perhaps even close. You’ll have others where the trend of decline will continue. And that will put additional strain on those institutions. There will probably be consolidation that takes place that’s there. But if you’re listening to this, and maybe you yourself are dechurched, is it’s like, what, I miss you, okay? Because I go to church, and if you’re not there, I’m worse off because of your absence. At the local church level, it’s like, well, dechurching is impoverishing our churches, because you have all these people who are amazing image bearers, and then who liked I want to know, and love and experience. And I think about like the 59 one another's in the New Testament. At least over half of those require, we have to be embodied in order to even get to do those things. And so, I’m just worse off when there’s people who aren’t there anymore, and they’re missed. And so, and then zooming all the way down to, like, the familial level, there’s tremendous pain and hurt there. We’re not talking about just a number on a spreadsheet, you’re talking about real people’s lives, and real things in their story, and real pains, and real hard sometimes. Sometimes for very good reasons people disconnect themselves from these things. Anybody familiar with you and your ministry,  knows these stories, and they know them well.. And so, I think on that front, there’s just tremendous things at stake. What’s the Thanksgiving or the Christmas dinner table look like? And what pieces of sadness are there?, or these places where people land different from their family members in terms of how they process really big conversations. Those can be really hard and lonely and isolating things when you find yourself in a very different place.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  13:25 But you know, one of the things that we advocate in the book is a posture of quiet, calm curiosity for everybody. You can only find yourself in that, in that place of being quiet, calm, and curious with other people, when you have a sense of security in yourself. And I think that security is best found when we’re confident in our identity as image bearers made in the image of God, redeemed by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and confident of our future, our eschatological future in the kingdom of God. And so, when we have that, that gives us the freedom to not feel like we need to be defensive, we can just listen to other people and hear what they have to say and believe people when they’re telling us about the wins and losses, particularly the wins and losses and their experiences with people who claim Christ or institutions that claim to be Christian. And so, I think there’s a lot of implications for these things. There’s just a lot that’s at stake. I think that there’s much work to be done, both on the individual front, and there’s a lot of work to be done on the institutional front.   Julie Roys  14:43 How we lead as institutions, I think, is probably an area that energizes me because I have found so much dysfunction within those institutions. And I did like that you said, we don’t have to go back to the church we left and I’m in a house church now, I love it. And I find myself questioning a lot of the stuff that I just took on face value. I was having discussion recently, I’m like, I don’t know, like preaching is that really the best way for us to study the Bible? We get together and we open the Bible, and we study it together. And I found that incredibly rich, richer than a lot of times when I have somebody giving me basically a lecture for 30 or 40 minutes on their opinion of what it says. And I find it just much richer to go right in and dig in ourselves. So, I find myself at least among the people that I’m in contact with, are all asking these questions. What is it really have to offer look like? I am just in contact with so many people where it hasn’t felt safe. And so, I just have such a degree of empathy for those who have trouble and I say, even my own children, I watched them try to find a church. And it is unbelievably hard, unbelievably, and that just breaks my heart because I feel like so many of the vibrant churches that I knew when I was their age, don’t exist anymore, or they’ve been just the ministries that I think of that were so vibrant on campuses, and so forth just aren’t there. And so, we do have an unbelievable amount of work to do. And I thought it was interesting, you also found, like, when we’re talking about leaving the church, like, who’s dechurching?, this isn’t any particular group. This like everybody across the board, right?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  16:27 It’s unilateral across the board,. In certain places, it’s maybe a little bit more prominent or pronounced than others. And the timing of which various different groupings may have kind of floated on looks different. But by and large, yeah  there’s no group that’s immune.   Julie Roys  16:48 Well, let’s dig into some of the groups because that’s what I do find really fascinating, but also, I think, really educational, because if we’re going to be relating to these folks in hopefully a winsome way, it’s helpful to know who they are. And I think there are some misconceptions of who they are. So, you basically found there’s five groups of dechurched individuals, cultural Christians, dechurched mainstream evangelicalism, exvangelicals, dechurched, BIPOC. So Black, Indigenous and People of Color, and dechurched mainline Protestants. Let’s dig into each one of those groups. Let’s start with the cultural Christians who, I’m guessing these are the people that grew up went to church on Christmas and Easter, and maybe a few times in between, but basically a little bit of church background, but not really a saving faith, probably.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  17:46 Yeah, so every one of those groups we mentioned had one thing in common, they all went to a house of worship, at least consistently on a monthly basis, but now less than once per year. So, the culture in terms of size, the 15 million people who left evangelical traditions, and that’s the first four profiles that you just read off: cultural Christians, dechurched mainstream evangelicals, exvangelical, and then the BIPOC dechurched. The cultural Christians are about eight of those 15 million people. And then the next three groups are between two and two and a half million each. So, the cultural Christians, they look like people who are upwardly mobile, who did not have a deep understanding of the gospel, or the Bible, and the inertia of just their rhythms and habits basically has them out of the habit of going to church anymore. They’ve been gone from church for about 12 years now. They’re in their early 40s, on average. They’re overwhelmingly white, 98% white, and they’re doing well from an education and income standpoint. Interestingly enough, about half of them are willing to return to an evangelical church today. The top reasons why they left attendance was inconvenient, their friends weren’t worshiping at church anymore, they moved. More casual reasons than casualty and painful and the reasons why they said that they wouldn’t be willing to return were largely things that were relational in nature; new friends, lonely and want to make new friends, they miss church, a friend invites them, a spouse wants to go, they move and want to make new friends in a good community. So those were the reasons why about 4 million of them were willing to return to an evangelical church right now.   Julie Roys  19:36 Throughout these profiles, you often talk about their relationship to their parents, because again, they were brought up a certain way and obviously they’re doing life differently now than their parents did. And there were a couple things with their parents, one turned off by their parents commitment to culture wars and refusal to listen. And then the second  one, they’re not seeing the fruit of the Spirit in their parents. It’s tough to hear that. I think it’s a reminder that you know, as parents wow, I mean, what a responsibility. I’m curious if those relationships, and I don’t know how much you dug into it, but do they just remain fractured?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  20:21 We don’t know yet. The hard scientist in me would say we need to ask the same people the same question years later. And to drill down to get at the heart of those things. Probably in the three-to-five-year timeframe, we want to ask a lot of the same questions and see what looks similar, see what looks different. The stuff with the parents is really hard. And  it’s challenging, and it’s sad. I don’t know if it’s necessarily surprising. Obviously, for most of us, that’s one of the most formative relationships, if not the most formative relationship, at least in certain times of our life. And so, I think, also the last decade, in American public life, and I think particularly with the advent of social media, and the ways in which social media, you know, you have the like button, I think that was introduced, I want to say in 2009. Every platform has their dopamine-inducing reward structure for creating content that some people find interesting. The challenging thing about all of that is now, when you have a reward mechanism built into social platforms, people are more self-revelatory than what they would have been before. And so, I think, in terms of public communication and discourse, there is the freedom for people to communicate more about their perspectives than probably what there was before this dynamic of American public life existed. And so, I don’t think that’s necessarily all good or all bad. It’s just, there are implications that are downstream from that. And now, it’s where everybody is at, is far more clear than what it was 10 plus years ago. And there’s going to be implications from that, particularly as people have divergent perspectives, and sometimes strongly divergent perspectives. And again, all of these things are algorithmically incentivized. And in some ways, the stronger you feel about those things, sometimes that reward mechanism rewards you even further. And so, I think over time, there aren’t many impulses that are there baked into these things that create people finding as much common ground. And oftentimes, our digital interactions become power over persuasion.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  22:56 And so those are challenging dynamics. And what do you do if your parents are behaving poorly on the internet, and are getting cheered on from those things? You can flip that script in the other way, as well. So those things are going to have implications at the dinner table. And I’m sure that many people have experienced some challenges during looking back at their Thanksgiving and their Christmas. And I think that some of these things are just downstream from these particular dynamics of how technology has inserted itself into our lives and revealed things about people that we loved that have maybe changed our perspectives about how we view them and have altered maybe the amount of relational intimacy that we feel comfortable with. Those are hard and sad things.   Julie Roys  23:44 And one thing I found really interesting about this group, I mean, obviously, there’s the family fracture, well, that’s going to leave you more lonely, maybe depressed. But then there’s the relational fracture, like most of us, I mean, I know for me, my closest friends are my church friends, right? And without that community people are, and you even found, like more depressed, higher anxiety, I mean, all those things. And so, the reverse then, is that, and we often think, how do we invite people back to the church?, and I thought it was insightful that you’re like, these people need a dinner-table invite. In other words, they’re looking for a relationship, right? That’s most likely what’s going to bring them back to the church.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  24:26 What we talked about in the book is there’s three levels of relationship that different broadly speaking profiles probably need. The second profile that you’ve mentioned, the dechurched mainstream evangelicals, these folks left on average about three or four years ago. They’re about the same age as that first group, early 40s. But this group is whereas the cultural Christians only 1% of them said that Jesus is the Son of God, 98% of this second group said Jesus is the Son of God.. These people have a very deep understanding of the Gospel, the Bible, and the kinds of things that you want to see from Nicene-creed level of Christianity. And 100% of that group are willing to return to an evangelical church today.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  25:08 And so, the three levels of kind of relational need that’s there, that group really they just need a nudge. A nudge is something like a text, a phone call a water cooler moment, talking out on the porch, or in the cul de sac, hey, I got this really cool thing going on at church, or I’m speaking up this thing, or I think you’d really like our pastor, would you be willing to come to church with me? Let’s go grab lunch after at such and such place, that’s a nudge. I think when there is more pain, or church hurt, or these different kinds of things. And this should be obvious, when you think about it, it’s just people need the kind of intimacy that occurs around breaking bread together in a home at the dinner table. Literally, or figuratively and metaphorically, I think that when people need to be able to have an avenue, when there’s either interpersonal or institutional or both friction, then they need to be able to have a place that is where they can experience somebody who’s going to be willing to quietly, calmly and with curiosity, engage them in their story in a way that they would want to be treated. So, we have a third category of people who are just, they’re probably just never going to return to a house of worship.   Julie Roys  26:26 The exvangelicals. No?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  26:28 The exvangelicals are done with the evangelical expression of the faith. Okay. 79% of them were willing to return to some form of Christian tradition. That was something that was very surprising.   Julie Roys  26:44 So just 100%, they will not go back to the church they came from, which may be a good thing, in a lot of ways.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  26:51 Well, I mean, certainly there are many different institutions I could think of where it  would be very unhealthy to return to. So, and that’s the good news about all of this stuff, you don’t have to return to what you left if there was something unhealthy. I always think about these things in terms of truth, goodness, and beauty. Well, what’s a healthy church? Where you can see the truth of the gospel, the goodness of the gospel, and the beauty of the gospel, all in the same place.   Julie Roys  27:21 The exvangelicals, I just want to camp there just a little bit, because these are folks that I mean, honestly, I have a lot of empathy for  and understanding. I mean, they’ve been through some things that were pretty toxic in the church. In fact, you found they scored 74% higher on experiencing a lack of love from their congregation than the other four groups combined. And that’s heartbreaking, like the place where you should most experience love, they experience a complete lack of love. And I’d be curious how many of them come from a fundamentalist background as well because I mean, there just seems to be a correlation there between just a rigid adherence to rules and so forth, and even the culture wars and all of that, and just a lack of caring for the soul and caring for the human being, whether they agree with you or not. But these folks, where they look for answers; talk about that a little bit.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  28:26 We ended up calling this group exvangelicals because none of them are willing to return to an evangelical church. But what was really surprising was that 79% of them said that Jesus is the Son of God, and they had the second highest view of the Bible, as well as Nicene Creed-level Christianity. And so that would be things like the Trinity, the seamlessness of Jesus, these kinds of things. But what was interesting is this group was overwhelmingly female, two thirds female. And they were middle aged, average age 53. And they left a little bit after 9/11, on average, in terms of the bell curve. And what does seem to be occurring there is they had the lowest income and the lowest education of any of the groups, and their relationship towards institutions in general, was very strained. And so that was really interesting to see. It’s not just that the church isn’t working for this particular group, particularly the evangelical church. But American institutions in general aren’t working well for this group. Much lower rates of marriage, much higher rates of divorce, the rates of depression, anxiety, loneliness, and suicidal thoughts were also elevated across the board, but particularly suicidal thoughts were very bad. I think I made a note of this in the book, describe how you’re doing with respect to suicidal thoughts. And we’re basically 100 is I have no suicidal thoughts; everything is rainbows and Skittles. And where zero is deeply, deeply struggling with suicidal thoughts, the average score among this group of people, the exvangelical group, was 16. I just started crying, these are real people. And there’s several thousand people that we surveyed here. Are some of these people no longer with us?, is some of these people? So, I don’t know, given the number of people we surveyed probably. So,  I’m looking at that., and it just can’t not impact you at a deep level, when you have any measure of empathy to think, oh, my gosh, these are image bearers. And this is a group of people that are clearly there’s a lot of pain that’s here. And there’s a lot of things that just aren’t working. And I don’t know how many institutions there are, depending on where you’re located, and how many options you have. I think many people might have to go a long distance to find a place where they’d find a church that would have that kind of empathy and understanding, given whatever is there in the story.   Julie Roys  31:07 Well, it becomes almost cyclical, because if you’re divorced, I mean, I hear this from so many of my divorced friends, that you go into a church and you feel judged right away, or you feel like you don’t fit in, and so it can become very self-perpetuating, makes it very hard to go to any place. So, wow, let’s move to the dechurched/BIPOC because this one was surprising to me, too. I was not expecting the profile that you found of this group. So, describe the black indigenous persons of color who have dropped out of their church. What kind of person are we talking about here?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  31:43 Yeah, so this group was fascinating too. Over two thirds of this group was male. Yeah. And the average age there was early 50s. And this group on average left in the late 1990s. Okay. Now, something that’s really fascinating, when the machine learning algorithm that we used to sort the dataset into these different profiles, we didn’t let it see ethnicity or race in the dataset, and sort based on that. Now, what’s interesting, though, is that you have profiles like cultural Christians that are 98% white, and you have profiles like this one that are 0% white. And note, so while race is a biological fiction, it is a sociological reality. And so, you can see that race and ethnicity has a significant impact in terms of the ways that you’re experiencing America and American institutions, and it has an influence on those things. So that was interesting. Another thing that was interesting was that this group, and you’re talking two to two and a half million people, had the highest income and the highest education of any of the different groups. Now, bear in mind, this is a group of people who aren’t white, who probably largely willfully chose to connect themselves to evangelical institutions, which we all know trend from a sociological and demographic standpoint, most evangelical churches trend in the Anglo direction of things. And so, it wouldn’t be wise to take the particular perspectives of this particular group and assume that everybody who’s BIPOC in America would share the same perspectives: very high incomes, very high education, head and shoulders above any of the other groups. And the cultural Christians are the next to that. And the BIPOC groups just stands head and shoulders above them.   Julie Roys  33:39 So, this is a group that generally, I mean, those that have dropped out, at least the profile you gave was of somebody who’s BIPOC that lives in a pretty white space. And so, I mean, I’m looking at that thinking, Is it easier to disconnect from that church community? Because the black church is such a cohesive community that, I mean, almost, it’s so strong in the community. I think it is even stronger than most white churches. Is it easier to disconnect from church once you kind of moved out of that space? And then you’re in really, almost an alien space in some ways.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  34:26 Yeah. In terms of black Protestantism, the black churches in American US history, have played more of a role in the local community life than say their predominantly Anglo counterparts. And I think a lot of that has to do with the amount of pressure that was placed on those communities over time. The BIPOC group was 76% African American and 13% Latino. So, when you combine the predominantly male with predominantly African American means over half of this group was extremely upwardly mobile black men. So, you’re talking to at least a million black men of the 15 million people who left evangelical churches. The most pain in church hurt comes from the exvangelical group and the BIPOC group. By far, the exvangelical group, they’re all the church casualties. The BIPOC group is a mixture of casual and casualty. The dechurched, mainstream evangelicals are all casual. And then most of the cultural Christians you’d characterize as casual.   Julie Roys  35:35 The last group we don’t have much time to spend on because I do want to talk a little bit about some of the messages and the things that we need to say to all five of these groups. But the dechurched, mainline Protestants and Catholics, not a lot of surprises there I thought. That they’re really concerned about the church doing some good when maybe the church they grew up in and I know the profile, you get profiles for all these different groups, but the profile was a man who grew up Catholic and the clergy sex scandal just rocked his world because it impacted his brother. And those people are kind of done with church if it doesn’t make a difference in a positive way for the community, right?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  36:16 Yeah. And in the dechurching that occurred among mainline and Roman Catholic occurred earlier than the dechurching that we’re seeing among evangelicals. Dechurching among mainline Protestants is more starting in the mid-80s. and extending into the late 90s. And then you can kind of shift that up about five years, for those who are leaving Roman Catholicism from the early 90s to like early aughts. And then you know, dechurching among evangelicals kind of looks like the Apple stock chart, just a little bit later, going hockey stick.   Julie Roys  36:54 Yeah. Well, the last segment of your book does talk about those who had dechurched from evangelical churches, how we might be able to bring them back. And, you know, I really appreciated that you talked about not just beliefs, because that’s what we hear so much about. In fact, when you were talking in the beginning you’re saying, you know, we think of people who don’t believe in the Bible anymore, don’t believe in God. And that’s not what we’re finding, by and large with a lot of these groups. But where we’re not looking is the sense of belonging and the behavior. So, would you talk just a little bit about that? and why this is important?   MICHAEL GRAHAM  37:30 Yeah. In sociology of religion, Jim and I learned from our conversations with Ryan, that they have these three categories of belief, behavior and belonging. I think in the 20th century, most of the ways in which we communicated the gospel to people was belief centric. And when you look at like, apologetic literature from that century, most of it is focusing on, oh, the claims of the Bible, or the claims of Jesus, or the Gospels are true. And it’s okay, that’s good. But I think the kinds of questions that we’ve seen more frequently, in the last decade or two, have been questions about whether is Jesus good? Or Is he beautiful? And what does that mean for me in terms of how I relate to other people and to community? And so those are more of belonging-type questions than truth questions. And so, I think that it is important for us that we be building healthier institutions. And like I said before, we want to have churches that emphasize the truth of the gospel, the goodness of the gospel, and the beauty of the gospel. Is the Jesus way a path towards to human flourishing to me?, will I find people who treat me with the fruit of the Spirit, with love, joy, patience, peace,  all of these kinds of things? The good news about all of that is those are things that are within our control. We can walk and keep in step with the Spirit. And we can bring the kinds of change needed at the institutional level, to try to really bring our churches in line and instep with the Holy Spirit and inline and in step with what God has revealed in his word. And as we do those things, we can be building beautiful places for people. Will those things ever be perfect or whatever? No. But I think that impulse to be always reforming. It needs to be there. And we need to be willing to have hard conversations with ourselves calmly. But we need to be willing to hold up mirrors to ourselves and ask ourselves, How can we do better?   Julie Roys  39:48 A question that you asked in the book that I think is powerful, is does your church operate more like an event or a family? And I have found it just in so many churches, it is an event where you can come, and you can go, and nobody even knows you. And it’s no wonder if that’s what people think of the church that they’re leaving. So, if there’s not that family component, yeah, they’re just not going to stay. I think it was interesting, too, that you found that online church is basically a back door. Like people might go there for a while. But if they’re not connecting relationally, which how can you, you're a virtual church?, they ended up leaving, and I thought, on the behavior side, where you talked about that the church talk about hypocrisy, if they don’t see our beliefs and our actions lining up, they’re not going to stay. And so, we can only touch the surface, really, in a podcast, but the book, I would just highly, highly recommend. There’s so many good things in there, I think, instructive for us, and how we can do better how we can reach out, but how we need to be something different, I think, before we can even invite people to what we have, because if we’re not really functioning healthy as a church, then we can’t invite people to it. But before you go, I just want to give you an opportunity to any last thoughts that you’d like to say, to those, and especially those right now who are listening, who, they’re still dechurched, they’ve had it.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  41:21 What I want to say is that, regardless of how people, humans, and human institutions have hurt and harmed or failed you, I have never been hurt or harmed by Jesus. And I continue to fall more in love with just the goodness of his gospel. And look, I’ve been before, in my current role I’ve been a pastor for some 15 years. And I should probably be dechurched based on the things that I’ve seen over the years. There’s nothing that’s in the book, aside from the parental pain, I don’t have that there. But pretty much any other category that you can talk about, I’ve seen it, and I should be at risk. But I just know at the end of the day, if anybody else had the words of life, I would go and I would go there, but nobody else has the words of life but Christ, and he has died for his church. Is she a mess? Yeah. Is some of her parts way more messed up than others? Yes. Some to a fatal extent? Yes. Should there be some institutions that don’t exist? Yes. However, and sometimes for certain people, it’s going to be more proximate than others. But there are still good places where you can find that, where the body of Christ functions like a family. So, I’d encourage you to go back to God’s Word and look at all those one another's that are there in the text and find a place where you see those one another’s embodied, and where you can see that the truth, goodness, and beauty of the gospel all in one place. There’s just such tremendous hope in Jesus. It is the treasure in a field that is worth selling, metaphorically speaking, all that you have to go and pursue. Only Christ as the words of life. And only in Him can we find redemption, and the hope of a future where re-creation is happening, and redemption is happening as far as the curse is found.   Julie Roys  43:46 So good. And I think what we’re finding is that people are open to Jesus. It’s just the church. So, I do pray. I know for me; I feel just extraordinarily grateful that I found a body of believers and it’s been a lifeline for me. So, I just pray for that for other people. But I thank you, Michael, for helping us understand these different groups of people and also understanding what maybe we’re doing wrong that we can fix. Appreciate that, love your book. So, thank you again, so much for taking the time.   MICHAEL GRAHAM  44:17 Thank you, Julie. Appreciate it.   Julie Roys  44:19 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And just a quick reminder, if you’d like a copy of Michael’s book, The Great Dechurching, we’d be happy to send you one for gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month. Again, we don’t have any large donors or advertising we simply have you the people who care about reporting the truth and restoring the church. So, if you’d like to support our work and get The Great Dechurching, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged.   Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/QiNJvzlFadwWhen faced with a scandal, organizations have a choice. They can engage in impression management strategies, designed to obscure the truth, and save their image. Or, they can take the road less traveled. They can humble themselves. They can listen. And they can admit the truth—to themselves and to others.In this edition of The Roys Report, researcher, author, and abuse survivor advocate, Wade Mullen, speaks on how to manage a crisis in a session from the recent Restore Conference. This is a topic Wade knows well. For his doctoral dissertation, Wade studied the responses of 50 evangelical organizations when faced with a crisis. Sadly, what he found is they all do basically the same thing! They engage in impression management and hire spin doctors. They strategically omit key information. They make ambiguous statements, tell half-truths, evade questions—and do whatever it takes to try to control the narrative. What's tragic is that victims then get re-victimized. The public is deceived. And if the group gets away with it, they become emboldened and skilled manipulators. Prior to this week, our plan had been to release Wade's compelling, in-depth talk in February. But, in light of what's happening at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City (IHOPKC), now seemed the right time. IHOPKC is facing allegations that its founder, Mike Bickle, sexually abused multiple women over several decades. And just this weekend, IHOPKC platformed Eric Volz of The David House Agency to manage its crisis. Sometimes, it's hard to put your finger on what's happening in these situations. But some light bulbs will likely go on as you listen to this talk. Guests Wade Mullen Wade Mullen, PhD, is a professor, researcher, and advocate working to help those trapped in the confusion and captivity that mark abusive situations. He is the author of Something's Not Right: Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse and Freeing Yourself from Its Power (Tyndale House). He serves as an institutional response specialist with Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment, a leading nonprofit group. His website is WadeTMullen.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys, WADE MULLEN Julie Roys  00:00When faced with a scandal, organizations have a choice. They can engage in impression management strategies designed to obscure the truth and save their image. Or they can take the road less traveled. They can humble themselves, they can listen, and they can admit the truth to themselves and to others. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And what you’re about to hear is a talk from our recent RESTORE conference by researcher, author and advocate, Wade Mullen, on how to manage a crisis. This is a topic Wade knows well. For his doctoral dissertation, Wade studied the responses of 50 evangelical organizations when faced with a crisis. And sadly, what he found is that they all do basically the same thing. They engage in impression management. They strategically omit key information. They make ambiguous statements, tell half-truths, evade questions, and do whatever it takes to control the narrative and control how others think of them. And what’s tragic is that victims get re-victimized, the public is deceived. And if the group gets away with it, they become emboldened and skilled manipulators. I had planned to release Wade’s talk in a couple of months. But in light of what’s happening right now, at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, or IHOP, I thought now was the right time. If you’re not aware, IHOP is facing allegations that its founder, Mike Bickle, sexually abused multiple women over several decades. And just this weekend, IHOP brought in Eric Volz at the David House Agency to manage its crisis. Sometimes it’s hard to put your finger on what’s happening in these situations. But I think as you listen to Wade’s talk, some light bulbs will go on. And so, I’m very excited to share this talk with you.   Julie Roys  01:53 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington if you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go toBUYACAR123.COM. Now, here’s Wade Mullins, speaking at RESTORE 2023 on how to handle a crisis.   WADE MULLEN  03:04 It’s an honor to be here again, and to be a compassionate witness to one another’s stories and to stand in solidarity against abuse. I’m grateful to be here. Throughout college, I worked as a server, a waiter at an upscale restaurant, which, given how accident prone and clumsy I can be, probably wasn’t the best idea. But they hired me. And as a result, I created a number of crises for management to have to respond to. There was the time when I was carrying a tray full of drinks in one hand, which was always a risky kind of circus act for me. And I approached the table in the corner of the restaurant, and a man was sitting at the table with his back towards me. And I approached the table and one of those trays started wobbling, and a glass of cold ice water tipped over. And the way the tray was, it caused the water to go right down the back of his shirt. And to this day, I can picture him going, whew, that’s cold. He didn’t know what happened. So, I had to apologize. Management had to come out and figure out what to do. I believe the man went home to get changed. It was it was bad. Then there was the time I was walking to the dining room with another tray full of dishes and a ramekin just like a small cup of yellow mustard, fell off of the tray and landed on the floor at such an angle that the yellow mustard flung into the air and my eye is going toward what spilling, but I hear a woman say what the? And I look up and she had all that yellow mustard in the back of her hair. And she’s trying to figure out what just happened. But perhaps the worst, and there was many. But perhaps the worst was when I was trying to keep one of those trays full of drinks straight again. You see, I should have learned my lesson, and just avoided that altogether. When I got to the table, and a glass full of coke, dropped off the tray and entirely into a woman’s purse. She gasped. And to this day, I remember her saying, looking in her purse and saying my purse is flooded. So again, I had to apologize, management had to come out, offer to pay what was ruined. comp the meal in all these cases. It wasn’t good.   WADE MULLEN  06:00 A crisis is when the unexpected happens, usually at a speed you can’t keep up with, and results in some kind of undesirable negative impact. And there are often four components of a crisis. The first is an event that’s unexpected, which can make it difficult to prepare for, so nobody brings an extra shirt with them to a restaurant in case the server drops a glass of water on them. Second, there’s a high impact on numerous people, which usually cannot be easily assessed. So, when I spill a drink on someone as a server, there’s the direct impact on the person who got something spilled on them. There’s the impact on those who are trying to share a peaceful meal together. There’s the impact on me the server, perhaps on my trustworthiness as a server. There’s the impact on management and perhaps on the restaurant. Third, there’s a loss of control as events happen too fast to manage. So, there’s initial reactions, which might be shock or confusion. There’s a time in which people are trying to figure out what is happening and how do we respond. So, it can all seem like a blur. And then lastly, fourthly, if not handled well, and I know  many of us have experienced this. When not handled well, the response to the crisis can generate additional losses, additional pain, additional conflict, potential abuses. So, what if after I dropped the Coke into the woman’s purse, I became upset and blamed the woman for having her purse on the table? I did not do that. But had I or if management didn’t offer to pay what was damaged, a wrong response can add insult to injury and create additional crises. And there are different types of crises. So, these are examples of accidents that I’ve provided, but there are crises that are a result of natural disasters or emergencies. There are crises that companies face when technology or product fails like a like a data breach. Then there are crises that are commonly referred to as scandals because they involve typically reports of some kind of leadership failure, misconduct or abuse that undermines public trust. And this is what I want to focus on.   WADE MULLEN  06:02 In 2015, I set out to complete a PhD dissertation on how evangelical organizations use what are called impression management strategies to respond to a crisis. Or to be more precise, a particular type of crisis called an image threatening event. And at this point, I don’t need to convince you that the evangelical landscape is filled with these types of crises. I want to talk about how leadership can respond well in the midst of a crisis of this nature. And I’m going to begin with some common responses to crisis that should be avoided, then give some principles for responding well, and end with an encouragement to engage in healing and restorative work. Every situation is different. Your response to let’s say, a suspected crime, like child abuse, is going to start or should start with a report to authorities who have the responsibility and resources to investigate that. But your response to let’s say, a non-criminal offense, maybe spiritual abuse, is going to be different. So rather than providing guidance for specific scenarios, I’m going to give you principles and tools that I believe can be applied to most any situation. And I’ll start with this observation. And I always hesitate to create two paths, two options, but I think there’s truth to this one, based on my research and experience. When there’s a crisis, decision makers must choose one of two paths; to adopt truth telling and transparency, regardless of the impact on one’s legitimacy, status, or image, and I would say that is in this field, the narrow path, or second, use impression management and public relations strategies intended to portray and protect legitimacy and status and a positive image. And that first thing, legitimacy is often what’s being protected most of all. It’s this fear that people have, leadership has, that if this is going to become known, then that will threaten our appearance of legitimacy. And if we lose that, then we’ll lose following and if we lose following, then we’ll lose power and we’ll lose money and all the things that they might be grasping.   WADE MULLEN  08:33 Now, you may be wondering what’s impression management? In some of my prior talks, I went into detail describing various impression management tactics, but if you’re new to the term, or need a refresher, impression management is the process by which individuals or organizations attempt to control the image others form of them, usually in order to be seen in a positive light, especially when a reputation or legitimacy is threatened. And research studies indicate that impression management is the predominant focus of organizations and their leaders in the wake of a crisis. Strategic omissions, non-disclosures, ambiguous statements, half-truths, preventing discovery, not allowing people to ask questions, not cooperating with an assessment or an investigation, making misrepresentations, and a host of other communication techniques, are often difficult to identify, because they tend to be just shy of outright lies. And because the audience typically doesn’t have access to all of the information to be able to test what’s being said. And over time, these techniques of deception of impression management are learned. And thus, individuals or leadership teams can become very adept at creating false impressions, without placing themselves in the very difficult position of being caught in a lie or having lost control of the narrative. The objective of impression management is to control the behavior of others by defining a situation in the way that leadership wishes others to define it, knowing that it’s easier to control people when you can define reality for them, or keep them confused.   WADE MULLEN  13:00 And when leadership has successfully managed crises in the past, by using impression management tactics, they feel less threatened by future crises, because they know they can draw upon their past arsenal of impression management strategies to respond defensively to any future threats. So, the organization has created what’s called a buffer between its image and any future threats to its image. One of the tools that some evangelical organizations have sadly employed to manage a crisis, are non-disclosure agreements or similar clauses that can appear in all kinds of legal documents that are used to secure silence, to keep someone from being able to share their story. And you can imagine how, when and if that works the first time an organization decides to employ that, how that then can become a standard practice. And numerous crises are discovered to have been partially managed through the use of those kinds of agreements. But these kind of strategies can be used to create this buffer between an image that needs protecting and any future threats to that image. Now, that approach, that image-centered approach, can become a framework, a grid, through which all crises are viewed and through which all decisions are made. And over time, an organization a community, a culture, can become increasingly concerned with covering up abuses, injustices and all kinds of unethical behavior, for the sake of preserving that positive appearance. To be seen as a place free of those kinds of dark secrets. And it’s as if there’s this line, and everything above the line, what the organization wants to present to others and everything below the line is what they want to keep hidden from others. And when a crisis hits, the organization gets to work, managing this split between what has been presented to the public, and what is actually happening behind the  scenes that might threaten the public image if it were to become known. That’s why wherever you have successful cover ups of wrongs, you have two types of dark secrets that that organization now must maintain; the secret of the wrong itself, and then the bigger secret, that such kinds of secrets even exist. And that’s why so often we find that when there’s finally exposure, the exposure, the initial exposure, then might open the door to all kinds of things that have been hidden over time. Over time, they not only learn what strategies to use to maintain the split, but they also tend to become more insular, and fortressed. By only giving power to those with close relational ties, those who will remain loyal, and keep those secrets.   WADE MULLEN  16:15 Another typical response to a crisis is to centralize power so that decision making is done within the higher levels of an organization’s hierarchy. Sometimes that’s necessary in an emergency when decisions need to be made quickly. But it’s a problem if that then isn’t brought back into balance. But it can also be a response designed to protect the more powerful members of the organization. And sometimes a crisis becomes a convenient excuse for leadership to grab more power. And even when the crisis is over, the power remains centralized. So, a crisis tends to strengthen the hierarchical structure of an organization and increase the power differential between leaders and followers. And that’s always hard to assess. But it’s a reality that is so often true in every situation where you have cover ups of wrongs, and you have abuses, and you have traumatized individuals. So, you have this huge gap in power. Followers typically become less powerful, and the leaders become more powerful. Then as power is pulled more and more into the higher levels of the organization, and never shared, then that amplifies the desire leadership has to protect its own image when a crisis hits, because a threat to their legitimacy is a threat to their power. So, an image is threatened, power is concentrated within a single person or a few people who will remain loyal to each other, to protect that shared image, and keep all the secrets below that line. And this continues. So, what I’m trying to emphasize is that this becomes a pattern, it becomes a cycle. And it gets amplified up with each crisis, widening that gap between what is presented to an audience and what is actually true. But managing that gap, what I have found, becomes more and more difficult over time in some sense, because in order to hide what is below the line, people tend to feel as if they must volunteer information about themselves that is the opposite of what they’re hiding. So, showing off becomes a way of hiding secrets. And another common response to a crisis is when the priority is managing an image through self-promotion to boast and make overly optimistic statements and grandiose claims. The late sociologist, Erving Goffman, wrote this  the more there is about the individual that deviates in an undesirable direction from what might have been expected to be true of him, the more he is obliged to volunteer information about himself, even though the cost to him of candor of that honesty may have increased proportionally. So, honesty is not the right synonym here for candor, but that willingness, that volunteering of information becomes a risky thing when there’s that split between what is actually being said, and what’s true.   WADE MULLEN  19:37 So, for instance, an organization a university could claim to be one of the safest campuses in the country while actually failing to meet the demands of safety. This is what hypocrisy is and this is the risk. This is what’s happening in this cycle, in this pattern. Hypocrisy is wanting to be seen as good without meeting the demands of goodness. It’s asking for trust without working to earn trust, it’s wanting to be seen as a healer, without touching any wounds, it’s gathering a following without serving, it’s always taking, never giving. And that gap widens and widens and widens. And then managing that image becomes the predominant goal, when everything above the line is what gets presented to others, and everything below the line is what remains hidden. All of that energy goes into maintaining this divide.   WADE MULLEN  20:35 Another factor that drives leadership toward image management is the reality that for some leaders, their identity and sense of self-worth is intertwined with the success of the organization they lead. And so, a threat to the image of the organization is a threat to the identity of the leader. The organization can’t be seen as a failure, because then that leader will be seen as a failure. And I believe this is a significant problem. And I’m grateful for those who are writing books and helping us understand more and more about the problem of narcissism within the church. But we need to be willing to name the truth and acknowledge our own limitations and failures when faced with a crisis. Even if it means being seen by others as weak or as inadequate. When leadership tries to cling to their image, then they use power in ways that are careless in ways that might be callous in ways that harm people already negatively impacted by the crisis, and in ways that undermine public trust.   WADE MULLEN  21:46 And then lastly, an organization can believe it has become too big to fail. Research suggests organizations that enjoy a higher position in their field have more to lose when that position is threatened. Therefore, they’re more likely to use impression management because they believe the risk to all they’ve built is too great. And I’ve heard leaders who say, well, if we were to get in front of the congregation and make an apology, and admit this, you know, just realize just what that would do to all that we’ve built, or that might work in a small church, but you’re talking doing this in front of thousands of people. That just will cause such a mess, you know. So, their  sense of we’re too big to fail.   WADE MULLEN  22:40 Organizations can quickly get caught up in a cycle of managing images and reputations. And on too many occasions, I’ve heard from groups of people who have experienced the pain of seeing their church community or an organization they love, slowly become a place characterized by fear and confusion brought on by dominating leaders who manipulate for their own gain and for the protection of their own image. Now, why does all this matter? Because the most profound impact become the most easily forgotten when leadership turns their attention away from the needs of victim survivors and toward the work of protecting their own image.   WADE MULLEN  23:28 So, the first principle I want to offer for responding well, other than avoiding all of those things, is to surrender the desire to manage impressions and defend your image. And when you do that, it frees you to center the needs of victim survivors, and it frees you from this prison of deception that we can so easily get ourselves into when we start prioritizing our image and our reputation. An important question to ask and to keep asking, when responding to a crisis is, who is impacted and how? You need to assess the losses people have experienced, and that response must be governed by love for those entrusted to your care. Years ago, I was in the car, and I heard a man on the radio define love in a way that has stuck with me. He said love is willing self-sacrifice for the good of another, that does not require being loved in return or that the other person is demanding of that love. That is sacrificial Christian love. And when you think of love in that way, you also might think of Jesus Himself and His death on the cross. I John 4:10 says this is love. Not that we loved God, but he loved us and gave His Son as a propitiation, as a satisfactory payment, for  our sins. Love requires sacrifice. And if you are going to respond well to a crisis, understand it is going to cost you something. One of the saddest statements I hear sometimes from church leaders is, I didn’t sign up for this. Well, that’s exactly what you signed up for, to serve people in the midst of their suffering. And not only is that for their good, but it’s ultimately what is character forming and joy producing in your life. No one who experiences meaningful and faithful service to others looks back on that and says, I’m so glad of the self-serving self-protective role I had. So out of this love for others, you ask who is impacted? And how are they impacted? And you have to keep asking that.   WADE MULLEN  25:53 The next question we must ask is, what do we have to do to alleviate the suffering and promote healing? How do we enter into that suffering in a way that is trauma informed, ethical, and redemptive? But the answer to that question gets disrupted by a self-serving question that goes something like, if we enter into their suffering, what will happen to us? And this isn’t just theoretical. I’ve been in these situations and have heard from leaders who are wrestling with among themselves, there are some who say, this is the right thing to do. And we need to admit this, and we need to get in front of the people we’ve harmed, and we need to confess our sins to them. But then you have those who are in that meeting, who say, Oh, but if we do that, what will happen to us? In Martin Luther King Junior’s last speech titled, I’ve been to the mountaintop, given a day before his tragic assassination, he called people to support black sanitation workers in Memphis, Tennessee, who are on strike over poor work conditions and unfair pay, and challenged his audience to develop a “dangerous unselfishness” in their fight for justice through peaceful means. And in that speech, he recounted Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan. And he suggested that the priest and the Levite, who chose not to help the wounded man who was robbed and left on the side of the road, that they might have been afraid of what would happen to them if they stopped to cross this dangerous road and help the man. And because he was conducive to  ambushes, Martin Luther King, Jr. speculated that this fear may have gripped them. So, he said, the first question that the priest asked, the first question that the Levite asked was, if I stop to help this man, what will happen to me? But then the Good Samaritan came by, and he reversed the question. If I do not stop to help this man, what will happen to him? King concluded his speech, that’s the question before you tonight, not if I stop to help the sanitation workers, what will happen to all the hours that I usually spend in my office every day and every week as a pastor? The question is not if I stop to help this man in need, what will happen to me? Its if I do not stop to help the sanitation workers, what will happen to them? That’s the question. And I think one of the reasons leaders fail to respond well in crisis is because they say things like, if we stop to address these concerns, we’ll be distracted from our mission. Or if we get involved, and we don’t get it right, then we might get sued. So, leaders might say, what will happen to us if we get involved? What if things go wrong, and then we’re implicated? So, let’s keep our distance and not have our responsibility descend to them. Let’s not enter into it, let’s just hope it goes away. Or when the right thing is to confess and publicly apologize, leadership might ask what will happen to us if we confess? So, they remain silent, or they give a statement that falls just short of accepting responsibility by saying something like well if mistakes were made, or if anyone was hurt. In addition to assessing the impact on individuals, you also have to make sense of what is happening and apply the right definitions to the situation.   WADE MULLEN  29:44 One of the most harmful failures is when a situation is wrongly defined. Sometimes that’s intentional and done deceptively to control the narrative and protect powerful people. So, for example, the pastor verbally abused his staff and It’s called miscommunication. A leader repeatedly acts in spiritually abusive ways toward those under their care, and when it finally comes to the surface, it’s attributed to interpersonal conflict. A pastor commits adult clergy sexual abuse, and it’s called an affair. When you attribute the wrong terms, categories, and descriptions to a situation, you lead people down a path that ends up causing more harm. Sometimes there’s confusion around these definitions, because there has not been adequate attention paid to policies and procedures, or to training or to the fostering of an ongoing learning environment. So then when leadership is faced with a crisis, they’re left unprepared. And that lack of preparation opens the door to confusion. And in worst case scenarios opens the door to the bad actor, the deceptive person, to drive the narrative and the response. So, I want to emphasize the need for robust policies that are kept current and accessible. In many situations where there’s a failure to respond well, I hear leadership acknowledge that they either don’t have policies in place, or that they haven’t been updated in years. Or if they have policies, they don’t know what they are or where they are. Policies and Procedures are critical.   WADE MULLEN  31:29 Now, sometimes when I recommend this, I get pushback, and I hear leadership say, well, we don’t want to policy ourselves to death. And I want to speak to that because I’ve heard it too many times. I’ve only ever heard that view expressed by those who don’t have any. And in my opinion, it’s a potentially dangerous view that puts at risk the safety and fair treatment of those who are most impacted when a crisis hits. I’ve never heard someone say, well, maybe we would have responded better if our policies weren’t so robust. There is a need for there to be clarity and cohesion. But they but they need to be there. Regular trainings and fostering a culture of ongoing learning is also important. Trainings on abuse, prevention, and response on trauma-informed practice, on facing the ethical dilemmas of leadership can all help you to respond well when the need arises. I’m grateful in my work with GRACE that through GRACE, I’m able to sit through training in each of these areas once a year.   WADE MULLEN  32:38 Establishing access to resources and experts is also important so that when you need to get expert external advice, you know where to turn. I also recommend if it’s possible that organizations have an interdisciplinary response team, a diverse team of individuals with backgrounds and relevant fields, perhaps social work, or mental health, that can help with auditing policies, making sure they’re up to date with recommending trainings with assisting when there’s a crisis. These things can help prepare you. And it’s critical that there’s work done in this area of preparation because what you take into a crisis is what you will have with you during that crisis. In too many situations, I’ve seen people try to scramble and try to put something together after they’ve already been faced with something that they need to respond to. But even well-meaning response efforts can be harmful, when they are not supported by policies, education, and resources, because that confusion, that uncertainty about what to do can worsen the crisis.   WADE MULLEN  33:48 Now, perhaps you have clear policies, and you have ongoing training, you have access to resources, there’s still often a need for wisdom. Because there’s sometimes dilemmas, there’s nuances that need to be carefully worked through. There are two behaviors that are important for maintaining wisdom and an ability to make sense of what’s happening when you’re navigating a crisis. The first is what might be referred to as updating. Updating invites, welcomes, and provides safe mechanisms for new information to come to light. And that process is going to look different depending on the situation. Another term for updating might be openness. You remain open to new information and perspectives. You’re willing to hear from people, you’re willing to allow people to ask questions to bring concerns. You’re willing, if needed to,  to submit to an external investigation or assessment in order to understand what’s true.   WADE MULLEN  35:03 A second behavior that goes along with updating is flexibility. You have to be willing to continually test and revise interpretations and conclusions and decisions on the basis of information, and as new information comes to light. So, you hold these things with an open hand. And when both updating or openness and flexibility are working in tandem, wisdom and discernment are more readily practiced. And when you don’t practice wisdom, then you risk falling into one of two extremes. So, imagine a spectrum with wisdom in the middle. You don’t have to imagine it because I put a slide up there. And on the one end of the spectrum is overconfidence, in which leadership shuts down feedback, isn’t open to changing course, because they think they know what they need to know. They don’t acknowledge their limitations; they don’t turn to outside help. And as a result, this kind of response tends to result in dangerous action. This overconfidence can look like minimizing the scope and severity of a situation or making overly optimistic statements that everything is under control, or things will resolve themselves. Again, research has shown that this response is driven often by individual identities that are threatened during a crisis. So, you might have an overconfident individual, let’s say the founder of the organization, that responds in this way out of a threat to that identity. On the other side of the spectrum, are the overcautious. The overcautious are fearful of what feedback will reveal, and they take more of a passive, let’s just ignore it kind of approach. And they tend to take dangerous inaction.   WADE MULLEN  37:04 Both the overconfident and the overcautious shun wisdom. They shun curiosity, they shut down feedback, they shut down information. And as a result, they end up making poor decisions. One of the most common regrets I hear from leaders is that they wish they would have gotten help sooner, or they wish they would have taken time to listen to people. Not only does this application of wisdom benefit victim survivors and others who are most impacted by a crisis, but it also allows for a more sustainable and supportive environment for leaders. I often hear leaders go through a crisis and get to a point where they want to give up. They despair, maybe of the role they find themselves in. And I think part of that might come not just from lacking the capacity or resources to be able to give what’s required to meet the needs at the moment. But that inadequacy, those limitations, they go unacknowledged, perhaps out of a desire to be seen as in control, or perhaps out of a fear of being seen as weak or as a failure. So, they insist on leading. And then when the crisis is abated, maybe things calmed down, that leader in my experience, then takes a sabbatical, they go on vacation, thinking they’ll return then and be a different person. But then there’s another crisis and the pattern repeats itself because the leader hasn’t been honest about his or her limitations and gifts and abilities. So, they still cling to what they know and what they think they can do well, which then worsens the crisis for everyone involved. But when you’re able to say, here are my limitations, here are my weaknesses. When you’re able to move into this area of wisdom, and invite other people into a process, turn to outside experts. You embrace this model and you become a gift to others, and to those impacted by the crisis. I also recommend that when there’s a crisis, there’s often a need to speak truth in love. Sometimes speaking, truth and love means helping people process the crisis. So, it isn’t always the case that leadership needs to confess something, but they might need to provide answers. When giving accounts, explanations and answering questions, you should seek to do so in a way that helps people make sense of what has happened in a way that honors the dignity of those involved.   WADE MULLEN  39:46 When there is a time to confess, so this is another area of speaking the truth and love, is confessing. Then that ought to include this surrendering of defenses. So sometimes in that moment of confessing, that’s when we feel the most desire and the temptation to then protect our image. So, you have to surrender that, you have to take ownership. You have to take responsibility, and you have to demonstrate empathy. Sometimes speaking the truth in love looks like confronting wrongdoing. And when this happens, and of course, this isn’t something where you have external authorities involved who are investigating. But let’s say there are deceptions that you’re hearing in a board meeting regarding the what happened, or regarding the motives of other people. And there’s just a need to confront some of that misrepresentation. How do you do that? Well, this should be done with gentleness, it should be specific about the offense, about the wrong about any consequences, and it should invite that person into a redemptive process of accountability and repair. Then there’s a need to engage often in a work of repair in allowing for an environment of renewal. If needed, there ought to be an offer of generous restitution, and support for those who have experienced losses, those who have been victimized. This is, in my experience, sometimes where organizations stop, and I encourage them and invite them then to continue on this path. And to perhaps if it’s safe, ask people, What is it that you need? And the general principle that I give to leaders, if they find themselves in that position, is to do whatever the other person asks. I’ve never been involved in a situation where that request wasn’t a reasonable one. And sometimes it looks different. It’s not always I could use some help with paying for medical bills or counseling bills. That should be considered. But sometimes it’s, well, we really would like everyone on the leadership team to go through this training. Or we really would like maybe you could build some kind of memorial in honor of those who have been traumatized here and victimized. So there needs to be this restitution. And it ought to be generous, and it ought to be willing. When Zacchaeus made restitution, it was four times the amount, it was generous. But it was also something that Jesus didn’t twist his arm to do. It was something he was willing to do. And when he did that, Jesus said, today, salvation has come to this house. This is a critical step that is often missed.   WADE MULLEN  42:48 There needs to be a time where people are allowed to lament their losses. And I think it’s a beautiful thing when a church moves through a crisis well, and leadership shepherd people well, and after that, together, they hold a service of lament, and they name what has been lost. There ought to be some process in which the organization, leaders involved, submit to some kind of change, and that usually then involves some outside input to. There ought to be an honoring of truth tellers. That is another step that is too often missed. The only reason you’re here and experiencing this reform in many cases is because somebody had the courage to speak up. Are you honoring that? And then value the sources of resilience. And this is what I mean by that, just as a choice to prioritize managing images can quickly become a cycle of cover up and harm, a choice to embrace truth and transparency can become a cycle, it can become a way of living, that strengthens trust, strengthens safety, and creates resiliency. Thank you for the honor of being able to share with you again.   Julie Roys  44:15 Well, again, that’s researcher and author Wade Mullen speaking at RESTORE 2023. And as I’m sure you’re aware, many groups charge for conference talks like these, but we’ve decided to make them available free of charge, because we believe this content is so necessary for the restoration and health of the church, that we really could use your financial help. We need to raise $70,000 before the end of this year to end 2023 in the black. So, if you believe in our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church, would you please consider giving to this ministry? It would mean a ton to all of us here at The Roys Report and it will help us start 2024 on strong financial footing. To donate just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. And this month if you give a gift of $50 or more, we’ll send you a copy of Tim Alberta’s book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory. This is an awesome book exposing the idol of politics in the evangelical church and calling her to more biblical and faithful witness. So again, to donate just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript How did loving your enemies—a command of Jesus—suddenly become a sign that you're “woke”? And why is “owning the libs” now the answer to “What would Jesus do?”  On this edition of The Roys Report, bestselling author and journalist Tim Alberta joins host Julie Roys to explore a disturbing phenomenon in American evangelicalism. Though once evangelicals understood that the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of man were separate, now the two are being combined into an unholy mix. And sadly, for millions of conservative Christians, America is their kingdom—and proper adherence to their political ideology is their litmus test for Christian orthodoxy! On this podcast, you'll hear Julie's compelling conversation with Tim, exploring how evangelicals got into this mess—and if, and how, we can get ourselves out. Yet Tim doesn't speak as an outside critic passing judgment, but as a practicing Christian and the son of an evangelical pastor.  Tim spent years sifting through the wreckage of American evangelicalism, interviewing pastors, evangelical/political activists, congregants, and scholars. The result is his new book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory, which tells story after illuminating story of major players and institutions within the evangelical movement that have succumbed to political idolatry.  One example is Liberty University, founded in 1971 by Jerry Falwell Sr. Recent headlines have exposed how Senior's now-disgraced son, Jerry Falwell, Jr., made Liberty into a far-right, culture warring, money-making powerhouse. But is this mixing of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of man a corruption of Senior's vision—or, is it the culmination of it? And what does it say that everyone—the administration, board, and Liberty supporters—were all fine with it, as long as the money was coming in?  Tim also shares stunning admissions he got during one-on-one interviews with major evangelical/political figures, like Robert Jeffress and Ralph Reed. In private, these men confessed that they know mixing political advocacy with the gospel is misleading and wrong. Yet, as Tim documents, these men keep doing it! Yet Tim also offers stories of hope—like his chapter on Rev. Dr. John Dickson, who teaches at the flagship evangelical school, Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill. In it, Tim explains why Dickson has become a missionary to America—and how Christians can lose the culture wars yet live joyfully and winsomely among unbelievers. Tim's book also includes a chapter on exposing abuse and corruption, featuring Rachel Denhollander's work and our work at The Roys Report. On the podcast, we discuss why our reporting is so important and why this chapter is Tim's mother's favorite! This is such an important podcast for Christians wanting to remain true to their calling to worship God first and foremost, rather than succumb to political idolatry.  Guests Tim Alberta Tim Alberta is a staff writer for The Atlantic and has written for dozens of other publications, including the Wall Street Journal and National Review. He is the author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism and the New York Times bestseller American Carnage: On the Front Lines of the Republican Civil War and the Rise of President Trump. He lives in southeast Michigan with his wife and three sons. Show Transcript SPEAKERS TIM ALBERTA, Julie Roys Julie Roys  00:04 How did loving your enemies, a command of Jesus, suddenly become a sign that you're woke? And why is owning the libs now the answer to what would Jesus do? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys and joining me on this podcast is New York Times bestselling author Tim Alberta, whose latest book explores what happened to American evangelicalism. Decades ago, Americans viewed evangelicalism favorably. In 1976, author and historian Gary Wills called evangelicalism, the major religious force in America, both in numbers and an impact. And leading evangelical thinkers claimed that evangelicalism could no longer be regarded as reactionary but was vigorously and sometimes creatively speaking to the needs of the contemporary world. Fast forward to today and evangelicalism has become synonymous with Donald Trump, a thrice married vulgar opportunist who said he doesn't need to repent or ask for forgiveness. A recent poll by Pew Research found that the only religious group that views evangelicals favorably are evangelicals. And as Tim Alberta notes in his book in 1991 90% of Americans identified as Christians, but today, only 63% do. What happened to this once vibrant movement? And can it be saved, or has it passed beyond the point of no return? Un his new book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory. Tim Alberta does a masterful job of exploring these questions, but he doesn't do it as an outside critic passing judgment. But as a practicing Christian and the son of an evangelical pastor. I found Tim's book eye opening on many levels, and I'm so excited to share this interview with you. Julie Roys  01:47 But before I do, I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity, to check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys  02:51 Well, again, joining me is Tim Alberta, a staff writer for The Atlantic and the former chief political correspondent for Politico. Tim also is the author of The New York Times best seller American Carnage on the Frontlines of the Republican Civil War, and the Rise of President Trump. And his latest book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory, explores American evangelicals in an age of extremism. So, Tim, welcome. It is just such a pleasure to be with you again. TIM ALBERTA  03:16 Yes, Julie, it is. It's great to catch up with you and come sort of full circle from where we were a couple of years ago talking about all of this. Julie Roys  03:24 That's right. We spent a couple of well, more than a couple of hours. I think it was supposed to be like maybe an hour and a half, and we got so into our discussion. I think we closed down one coffee shop and went to another. TIM ALBERTA  03:35 We did. I hijacked your whole day. Julie Roys  03:38 Oh, it was fantastic. And so, encouraging to me, but always fun to talk to a fellow journalist with similar convictions. And I was excited about this book when we had our discussion. I'm so honored, I have to say, you know, to get the galley of the book, and I figured because we spent so much time that I'd be in it, but you know, just what you wrote, and the way that you captured some things just so honored to be featured in a chapter with Rachel den Hollander. So, thank you so much for that. I just really appreciate it. TIM ALBERTA  04:07 I should tell you that is my mother's favorite chapter of the book. Oh, for what it's worth, because she's big into strong feminine Christian leadership. And so, she was particularly smitten with you and with Rachel. So, I thought you should know that. Julie Roys  04:21 Oh, wow. Well, I'm honored. I really am. And I should mention that we are offering your book as a premium to anybody who gives $50 or more to The Roys Report in this month. Again, this is just a way that you're able to support the work that we do, but also get this fantastic book. Just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE if you're able to help us out and continue the work that we do, and also get what could be a great Christmas present for somebody or for yourself. So anyway, encourage you to do that. Well, Tim, as I mentioned in the open, you're not writing this book as sort of an outsider critiquing evangelicalism. You grew up evangelical, your dad was an evangelical pastor. And oddly enough, it was at your dad's funeral in 2019, that something sort of awakened you to the severity of what's happening right now within evangelicalism. Tell us a bit about that story. TIM ALBERTA  05:17 Yeah, so my dad, Reverend Richard Alberta, was an amazing, amazing guy. We were very close. And he had a pretty crazy come to Jesus story himself where he was actually kind of a hotshot New York finance guy. And my mom was kind of a hotshot, young journalist with ABC Radio. They lived in New York and my dad, despite having all of this worldly material success, just felt this emptiness. And he was an atheist. He grew up in an unbelieving home. And he, one day stumbled into this church in the Hudson Valley, and heard the gospel and he gave his life to Christ. And it was already a pretty dramatic conversion because he became completely unrecognizable to people around him, including my mom, who was not yet a Christian. Everybody who knew him just thought he was sort of losing it. Suddenly, he's waking up at four in the morning to read his Bible and meditate in prayer for hours. And they're all like, what is this guy doing? And then pretty soon after that, he feels the Lord calling him to ministry. And now they all think he's like certifiable, right? You know, but he follows the Lord's calling. And, you know, he and my mom who became a Christian, they sell all the possessions so he can go to seminary, and they basically they give up this pretty lavish lifestyle they'd had. And for the next like, 20 years, they just work in small churches and live on food stamps and serve the Lord that way. And then when I come along, some years later, we eventually settle in Brighton, which is a suburb of Detroit. And my dad builds this kind of small startup church there into kind of a mega church. And that was my home. It was my community. It was my whole life, really. My mom was on the staff there at the church as well. It was called Cornerstone Evangelical Presbyterian Church. I was raised physically, literally, inside of that church. TIM ALBERTA  07:11 And so, my dad dies a few years back. And when I came back to the church for the funeral, because of the work I've done in politics, and because I had just recently written this book about Trumpism and his takeover of the Republican Party, I was kind of in the crosshairs of right-wing media at that time, because of the book. And so, at the funeral or at the wake during the visitation, I had a bunch of people at the church kind of confronting me and wanting to argue about politics and about Trump and asking me if I was still a Christian and how I could be criticizing him this way. And it was pretty ugly. And as you said, sort of a wakeup call. Julie Roys  07:52 Yeah. And it is something isn't it when you don't support these people that certain evangelicalism believe you have to your, you know, I've got people praying for my salvation, because I've taken on John MacArthur, you know, It's craziness. But there is this tribalism now, within evangelicalism, and it's probably at its very worst when it comes to former President Trump and what he typified. It's interesting to me, you know, as I look at the evangelical movement, you know, I was a card-carrying conservative right? Before Trump came along, and then something really happened. And I feel like I was going back and reading a little bit of Chuck Colson's, Kingdoms in Conflict. Do you remember that book? TIM ALBERTA  08:34 I do. Yeah. Julie Roys  08:35 I mean, he was pretty even handed. I mean, he's very clear in there that being in the kingdom of heaven means it's not about ruling others, it's about being under God's rule. And yet something has tripped, where we're not saying that anymore. We're really become about this whole Dominionism. And he talks about the cultural mandate and things like that, but it's from a very, very different perspective. So here we are dealing with all of this Christian nationalism, and according to your book, a lot of this began, and it's funny because now, Lynchburg Virginia has become synonymous with the Falwell's and with Liberty University. But I've got to say, growing up in the 80s, you know, I knew about the Moral Majority, and some of that, but it just wasn't that big to me. And yet it has grown and grown, and I guess I wasn't even aware of the influence it had. But talk about how a lot of this has its roots really there, in Lynchburg, Virginia, and with what Jerry Falwell Senior. started in, like the late 70s, early 80s. TIM ALBERTA  09:42 Sure, in the context of the American church experience, it is Lynchburg, Virginia. It is the mid-1970s. And it is Jerry Falwell Senior who was a brilliant businessman who, you know, this guy could sell anyone on anything, and he was kind of a master entrepreneur, also a master manipulator. And what Falwell Senior. effectively did, he had already built out Thomas Road Baptist Church into a massive congregation. And then he had tapped into the relatively new medium of television to broadcast his sermons around the country. At one point, he became the single most telecasted program in the entire country. And so, he's reaching millions of people and he's raising a lot of money. This is pretty cutting-edge stuff at the time, but he's building out a mailing list with like more than 10 million names on it, and they are raking in money. So, then he already has his church. But Falwell, Senior is really almost the early archetype of the Christian nationalist. He believes that sort of fighting for God and fighting for America is one in the same and that if America falls, then almost God's kingdom on earth will fall. And so he recognizes that he needs something more than a church; that he needs kind of a cultural stronghold. So, he does two things. First, he takes this little Baptist College Lynchburg Baptist College, and at the time of the bicentennial in 1976, he rebrands it to Liberty University, and he changes the colors from green and gold to red, white, and blue. And basically, they do this whole patriotic rebranding exercise, which is aimed at tapping into not only patriotism in the church, but also tapping into the percolating low simmering at the time, fear in the church and grievance in the church. This sense that, you know, abortion is now legal. Pornography is prevalent, the drug culture is out of control. Prayer is banned in public schools. Secularism is on the march and they're coming for us like they are coming for Christianity in America. And so, Jerry Falwell turns Liberty University into this cause, and then piggybacks onto that with this new organization, The Moral Majority. So suddenly, he's got these three cogs. And he builds out this machine, Falwell Senior does, and it is incredibly effective. They mobilize 10s of millions of voters and sort of bring them under this banner of not just, you know, Christianity, not just following Jesus, but a very particular type of Christianity, a sort of subculture of a subculture. And in many ways, those seeds planted by Falwell 50 years ago, we are harvesting them now. And what we are dealing with, you know, the fracturing of the modern evangelical movement, I think you can trace it directly back to that period. Julie Roys  12:36 It's so interesting, because I think when you talk about Jerry Falwell Senior, and I've talked to a lot of people from Liberty, I've done a lot of reporting about Liberty. And a lot of folks look very wistfully back to the early days, and these are good people, you know, I've talked extensively to them. They're really good people, sincere believers. They look at what's happened to Liberty, and they're like, this isn't Senior. Like Senior loved the Lord and he really was sincere in his walk with the Lord and Junior just was like, we don't know how Junior happened, right? I mean, that's how they often talk about it. I'm going to have you come back to that, because I think what you present is a very, very different picture and honestly, one that I've begun to suspect myself. But let's talk about what happens with you know, Senior dies pretty abruptly right of a heart attack. And then Jerry Falwell, Junior, who is the lawyer, right? He takes over not Jonathan Falwell, who's the pastor, much more of the spiritual leader, but Jerry Falwell, Junior takes over. Very clearly, I'm not a spiritual leader. I mean, he really assued that whole entire title. But when he takes over, despite all the success that his dad had, the school was on the brink of bankruptcy at this point, right? And he kind of turns it around. 13:57 So, Falwell, Junior. is the yes, the UVA trained lawyer, businessman, real estate developer, who is a smart guy. He knows business. And he had really kept the church and organized religion at arm's length. His younger brother Jonathan was the preacher in the family. But Jerry Junior, he'd gone to Liberty for his undergraduate studies. And he says that, you know, he believes in the teachings of Jesus but rejects a lot of the other stuff that comes with it, including Liberty itself. Jerry Junior never wanted to really be a part of Liberty. And suddenly as he's working in the private sector, the school is about to go under. Jerry Senior has really badly mismanaged the finances and he tells his son that basically the school is on the brink of insolvency. And so, Jerry Junior kind of reluctantly comes aboard and he helps to stabilize everything, and he makes a lot of drastic cuts to the different programs and kind of rejiggers the whole balance sheet operation. And he saves Liberty in a lot of ways that, you know, his father gave him credit for that. And it's interesting though, Julie, that when Jerry Falwell senior dies, it's not an accident that Jerry Junior. takes over. That was the plan of succession. It's notable that here is Jerry Falwell senior, who is both businessman and culture warrior, but also a preacher. And he's got these two sons that exemplify one of each, right? He's got the son who's a preacher. And he's got the other son who's the kind of culture warrior businessman. And he appoints the latter to take over Liberty after he's gone. And that in and of itself, I think, speaks volumes. And then more to the point, Jerry Junior, as you said, he comes in and he tells anybody who will listen, look, I'm not a religious leader, I'm not here charged with the spiritual well-being of this school. I'm here to turn us into a powerhouse, I'm here to turn us into a highly profitable, highly influential organization that can sort of, you know, push back against the forces of secularism in the left in this country. But he doesn't, to his credit, I suppose. Falwell Junior, he doesn't pretend that he's something that he's not. And the irony of it all, Julie is that everybody was fine with it. They were fine with it. Right? They were, as you know, when the money was coming in, and the buildings were going up at a rapid clip, and the endowment was bulging, everybody was fine with it. Because he's Jerry Senior's namesake, and he's a Falwell, and the school is doing great. Clearly God is blessing this project. So, what's not to like? Julie Roys  16:47 Well, and you say everyone was fine with it. And it's true on a public face, everyone was fine with it. I will say I started hearing from a lot of people who weren't fine with it from I mean, obviously the Jane DOE's and now we know about who were victims of sexual assault, and their cases got just horribly mismanaged. In fact, not even reported. And you know, now we have the Department of Education looking into how badly Liberty bungled these cases and violated Title Nine mandates, and they could face like a 30 some million dollar fine, which could be one of the largest ever. So, this was percolating under the surface, but nobody knew about it at the time. And I also talked to a lot of professors who were like, the way this place is being run is abysmal. There's nothing Christian about it. The way the administration handles things, there's nothing Christian about it. And we know too, from some of the people you interviewed, it was less like a religious institution and more like a mafia like a mob boss. Like Jerry turned into I think Jerry is very, he's very likable when you meet him. I mean, obviously very socially gifted, even though he's an introvert. He seems like this kind of your good old boy that, you know, everybody likes. But he began to become very controlling, and lock that place down where Jerry ruled with really an iron fist. And by the time some of the stuff started coming out about him, that place I mean, am I right, that it was a lot less like a Christian institution a lot more like the organized crime syndicate? TIM ALBERTA  18:24 Yeah, well, and listen like this is so Julie. It's funny, because obviously, you and I are in the same line of work. We're coming at this from pretty similar worldviews, and we're having similar conversations, with some of the same people. And you're exactly right when they're using the term family business. You know, Liberty is a family business. They're not just talking about like the Falwell family. There's, you know, the implication there is like very clearly that there is almost a mafioso-esque quality to, you don't cross the Falwell's, the power is concentrated in a few hands here. If you get a seat at the table, you are just lucky to be there and you nod and you know, at one point, I think I make sort of an offhand smart aleck comparison to like the North Korean military where, you know, you stand and salute the dear leader and don't dare step out of line. And of course, that's tragic on a number of levels, one of them being that Liberty has been filled over the years with really good and godly students and good and godly professors who are there for the right reasons. Some of these professors who started to really see the rot from the inside., they chose to stick around because on the one hand, they could see the success around them. The kind of observable material success that you know that the campus is absolutely stunning. Maybe God is doing something really marvelous here and I just have to kind of see my way through this part of it. But I also think that there's a level of devotion, and a feeling for some of these people that they wanted to help right the ship, that they wanted to be a part of the solution. And obviously, those are some of the characters I talk to in the book who now have finally gotten to a breaking point where they say, you know what? I just can't do it anymore. And not only can I not do it anymore, but the world needs to know, the whistle needs to be blown here that like this is not okay. Julie Roys  20:21 What does it say about evangelicalism, Tim, that when the money was coming in, and the money still is coming in, that everybody was okay with how godless this place was? And anybody that was in administration knew and saw it. The Board, who it's astounding to me that when Jerry Falwell Junior, got embroiled in this big sex scandal, and he gets fired, that Jerry Prevo takes over. And we think that that is a change of the guard. This was the man who was the chairman of the board the whole time that Jerry was doing all of this stuff. It's shocking to me, but yet I see it so much in so many different Christian organizations. And so, what is it about us that we're okay with these things, with really what is just absolute rampant hypocrisy? TIM ALBERTA  21:15 I'm afraid that in many ways, we're actually worse than some of those secular institutions. Because of this idea of the prosperity gospel, it's almost become like this proper noun. And so, people feel like well, those are those people are crazy. I'm not one of them, I'm not a part of that, right? But the idea inherent to the prosperity gospel, right is that, well, if you give to the Lord, and if you serve the Lord, if you follow the Lord, then you will be blessed. But that is so conveniently and so easily reverse engineered by a lot of Christians, either at a conscious or at a subconscious level, where when you see any sort of material success around you, you then say, well, clearly, I'm blessed. Clearly, the Lord is blessing this project. And that creates a kind of a permission structure, I think, for a lot of us to then turn a blind eye to things that are very obviously wrong, or kind of downplay things that you otherwise would never downplay. And whether that's an individual church congregation, whether that's a big college campus, whether it's the President of the United States, this can manifest in a lot of different ways. It's so much based on that kind of material thinking that I think we are particularly vulnerable, particularly susceptible to it here in the American church. I think the saddest part about it is that many of us just don't see it, or maybe don't want to see it. I don't know. Julie Roys  22:44 Your book has a stunning quote, stunning quote by a former professor, Dr. Aaron Warner. And he says, and I quote, Jerry, Senior, was always a bit of a scoundrel, and Jerry Junior, perfected the art of using fear and hatred as a growth strategy. Christianity happens to be the thing that they used to build a multibillion-dollar institution. It could have been anything else. It could have been moonshine, but they chose Christianity. And it's gained them a lot of power and a lot of money; the two things these people truly worship. You talked to a lot of people, interviewed a lot of people at Liberty. Is that characterization fair? Or do you think it's a little too harsh? TIM ALBERTA  23:23 It's harsh, that's for sure. It might contain some traces of hyperbole. But I will say this, Aaron Werner is another guy who knows that institution very well. Went there as an undergraduate, has deep longstanding ties to Liberty And the stories he tells from the inside are stunning. One of the other quotes, actually, I thought it might be the one that you're going to read because it kind of runs right along in parallel to that one is from a current professor. Now, at the time of this recording, he's a current professor. My sense is that when the book releases and when this gets back to the administration that he could be dismissed and he's expecting that that will happen. But his name is Nick Olsen, and he's an English professor, very popular English professor there. Brilliant, godly young guy. And he's a legacy at Liberty. His dad was one of the first students at Liberty and a contemporary of Falwell Senior. And Nick has sort of agonized in recent years with this inheritance at Liberty and everything that he's seen and struggled with there. And he says to me, this is not quite verbatim, but he says this to me in the final chapter of the book, he says, Jerry Junior, thought that he was fulfilling his father's vision by assuing spiritual stuff and by building out this massive multibillion dollar like culture warring Republican institution. And he says, and it is heartbreaking, because that's exactly what he's done, and he did fulfill Jerry Senior's vision. And I think that piece of it, Julie is not hyperbole. I think that when you spend enough time digging through the archives and talking to people who were there in the room where it happened, so to speak, it becomes pretty self-evident. And by the way, you know, you mentioned earlier that there are people who will say, Yeah, but you know, Jerry Senior, he really loved the Lord. Yeah, well, these things aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, I'm not suggesting that he didn't love the Lord. But I'm suggesting that like many people who love the Lord, he got his priorities out of whack. And by the way, we are all susceptible to this. But it's very hard to evaluate the history of Liberty University, the decisions made there, the structure of the place and the personnel and how they've treated people and what the benchmarks have been. It's very hard to assess all of that and reach any other conclusion than the one that Nick Olsen reaches at the end of the book. Julie Roys  25:41 And yet Liberty continues to be the largest Christian university in the country. It still has this dominance, there's still a lot of people that I know sending their kids there. And it's heartbreaking to me. I mean, I just wonder at what point do we say enough, and we stand up to this? And I'm glad that people are starting to speak out. But sometimes I wonder if it's too little too late, when we have just these juggernaut organizations and it really has been a marrying of two kingdoms that should be in conflict, and we're trying to say that they can be married together the kingdom of this world, the kingdom, the political realm, and the kingdom of Christ. And Jesus never became a political leader. It's stunning to me some of these quotes that are in your book, that are just like you expect a lightning to fall out of the sky, the way that scripture and Jesus are being misrepresented. It's just so awful. Julie Roys  26:37 In your first section, though, I have to say there's always some redeeming thing in each section, which I'm like, Thank You, Lord. It's like a palate cleanser in a lot of just awful stuff. But you have this beautiful chapter. And it's on a guy, John Dixon, who I actually got to know in my reporting on Ravi Zacharias, because John used to be a speaker for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. And he was one of those who, you know, pretty early in the game as things were starting to come out, recognized that there were some lies being told by the institution he had been a part of, and he quickly made a break, and he boldly took a stand. I mean, I really respected him for that, that he didn't seem to have this Oh, fear of, if I say something, what's going to happen to me? I mean, he just said what was right, and what was what was true. And now he's at Wheaton College, which is right in my backyard. And what I love is that he's so joyfully on the losing team. You know, we've got all of these people, all these Christians out there telling us we have to be on the winning team, we got to take America back. And here's John Dixon saying, No, we're on the losing team right now. I mean, eventually, when Christ comes back, we'll be you know, he will set things right, and we'll be on the winning team. But for now, we're kind of on the losing team. And it's okay, people. So, talk about John and what we can learn from him and his example, because again, he's from Australia, which is probably about 10 or 15 years ahead of us in sort of this post Christian era that, you know, is beginning to happen here as well. Julie Roys  28:16 And that is so tough for us. I mean, it's not tough for Chinese Christians to get this, right? I mean they get it right away. Because to be a believer means you have to get rid of everything, you can't hold on to anything, you're gonna lose all your power, all your position. But I think we've been, actually it's the curse of being prosperous. And being in a country where Christians have had the majority and where it actually was a plus, probably for my parents to be believers. I think it won't be for my children. But maybe that'll be a good thing. And maybe that's precisely what the church needs. We already think we're being persecuted, which is funny. We really aren't. But we may see it. And right now, I think most of the persecution we're getting is because of what you said that we're not because we're so holy, but because we're actually worse than the world in so many different ways. And we deserve it. TIM ALBERTA  28:16 John is really one of my favorite people I've met in all of the journeys that I was on, and one of my favorite characters in the book for exactly the reasons that you mentioned there. And the fact that he is not an American is, I think, a big part of his perspective, right? But I think also, there's something deeper embedded in the American psyche, about winning, about the need to dominate. I have a funny quote somewhere else in the book from somebody who had spent years living and studying and teaching in Canada, who talks about how Canadians just want fourth place, and then when they get the bronze, they're thrilled. And in America, if you don't get the gold, you're a total loser, right? And so, there's something, you know, about the American Christian experience that's so different. And so, John, one of my favorite scenes in all of this reporting that I did was, we're sitting in the cafeteria there at Wheaton College, surrounded by the flags of the world all around us in the cafeteria. And I say, Why did you come here? Like, really? Why did you come here? And he says, like, this is my mission field now, like the US is my mission field because of this, this stuff. Everything you and I are discussing right now. He said this stuff is like so toxic and so unhealthy. And the church is caught in this terrible pattern. That, by the way, is not new. Right? You go back to Constantine, there has been this obsession with worldly power this inclination to merge two kingdoms into one. So, what we're living through here is not new, in a lot of ways. And I think John is so brilliant in kind of illuminating the appropriate Christian perspective here, which is to say that if you care so much about winning and losing, then the good news is you've already won, right? The tomb is empty, Jesus conquered death, and you believe in him. So therefore, you're already a part of the kingdom. But this place, which is meant to be ephemeral, and unimportant ultimately, and just, you know, a step among the stairs, that if your identity here is wrapped up in winning and losing, then you can't really have your identity there. And he says, ultimately, you know, we're the death and resurrection people. Like losing, and losing well, is a part of the Christian experience. TIM ALBERTA  31:24 John Dixon talks about how there's sort of this inverse relationship historically, between the amount of cultural and social and political power held by Christians in a society and the health of Christianity in that society, right? In other words, when you hold the commanding heights, the Christian influence it actually tends to be pretty weak and pretty corrupted and pretty compromised. When you are at the margins and when you are truly countercultural, the witness thrives. And we've seen that throughout history. Another favorite character of mine in the book, Brian Zahnd, who's the pastor of a church out in Missouri, he talks about how difficult it is for American Christians to really appreciate how the Bible is written from the perspective of the underdog, right? The Hebrew slaves fleeing Egypt, and the first century Christians living under a brutal Roman occupation. Like they had no power, they had no influence. And yet they were so joyful, and they were so content because they had their kingdom, right? And it does give me unease even in my own personal life, just the things I enjoy the materials, the prosperity, the comforts; can I fully appreciate the baby born in a manger? can I fully identify with the vagrant preacher from the ghettos of Nazareth? You know, it's a hard thing. Julie Roys  32:42 And here's the reality; that message, which is Christ's message really doesn't sell well in America. Having your best life now sells in America. And what we're seeing right now, and this, you know, brings me to the second section in your book dealing with power, which again, we've got to take back, America, has become sort of the mantra that we're hearing from so many of these, you know, political rights. And it has just morphed into something where, and again, I said at the outset, I used to be very much politically engaged with the conservative movement. I am not anymore because I can't stomach it and what it's become. I felt like we were being salt. But now it's about dominating and doing it by any means possible, where we just get rid of our morality. And I was always brought up to believe and I think this is what Scripture teaches, that the means is as important as the end. And so, if we achieve a righteous end through an unrighteous means, then we've lost. We've completely lost because we have given up what makes us unique, and what makes us God honoring for something that we're saying is a God honoring, you know end. But again, this is what has happened in our country. And, and what's interesting in this section that just captured my imagination. I mean, I've wondered this, like, you take a Robert Jeffress, right? This guy's not dumb. He's a smart Southern Baptist preacher, clearly a savvy guy. He has built this mega church, but the things that came out of his mouth, especially when Trump was in power, but it's still there. The things that come out of his mouth, and I think, he's got to know that this is not in line with the Gospels. He's got to see this. And yet, publicly, you wouldn't hear that. But when you met with him privately, you began to hear some doubt in there and allowing you to see a little bit of vulnerability, although it didn't seem to last all that long. But talk about that, because I'm not sensing much doubt in the masses that follow these men. But when you get them one on one, tell me what you see. TIM ALBERTA  34:50 And it's not just Robert Jeffress, Greg Locke, Greg Locke, Ralph Reed. Yeah, yeah, a lot of these guys. It's the pastor who in my hometown, grew his church tenfold by basically turning Sunday morning worship services into Fox news segments. And giving a Nazi salute to Gretchen Whitmer from his pulpit. I mean, but then you get them one on one. And you press them a little bit. I mean, you know, politely, respectfully, but you press them. Suddenly, they not only back off a little bit, but they do a little bit of like winking and nodding at you to basically say, like, you're right, I'm definitely putting on a bit of a song and dance here for the masses. But I think that they will ultimately justify it by saying, Well, yeah, but look at all these people who are coming in and look at the opportunity, we have to reach them now with the gospel? So, you know, those ends really do justify the means. I think the problem with that, as you hinted it, is but look, I mean, there's a lot of problems with it. You know, Mark 8:36 is not a rhetorical question, right? Like, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world yet forfeit his soul? But I think for some of these people, some of these leaders, the thing that really grates at me and I know it grates at you, Julie, is like, they're the shepherds, they're the ones who are supposed to know better, because a lot of their flock, you know, and I'm not being condescending or patronizing when I say this, they don't necessarily know better, they are the sheep, right? They need to be shepherded. And instead of shepherding, a lot of these people have just themselves become wolves. And they become wolves for what? So that you can have a seat at the table? So that you can get on Fox News? So that you can raise some money? So that for what ultimately? You're so right, when you press them on it almost to a person, they will acknowledge at some level that what they're doing is kind of gross, and kind of anti-biblical, and then they just keep on doing it. Julie Roys  36:46 So, speak to the person who is listening. And we probably don't have a ton of these. But there may be some who are listening, who have bought this hook, line, and sinker that we do need to take America back. And Franklin Graham told us it's all for the Supreme Court justices, and we got the Supreme Court justices and Roe v. Wade was just overturned and, you know, look at what was accomplished. So, you know, politics is a dirty business, Tim. I mean, come on, if we're gonna win in politics, which, you know, we're talking about babies here, babies are being slaughtered left and right. And then, you know, some of these people would allow a baby to be born alive and kill it. You know, that's who these people are. So, I mean, come on. This is the world we live in, and we've got to fight the way that the world fights. What do you say? TIM ALBERTA  37:35 I'd say a couple of things. I think you can go round and round about Roe v. Wade, and about Trump and about Supreme Court justices. But be careful what you wish for in this space. Because the fact of the matter is that Roe v Wade fell, and the total number of abortions in this country went up. I live in Michigan, where prior to Roe v Wade falling, there were pretty tight abortion restrictions in Michigan. Now, it is the wild west. It is some of the most liberalized abortion laws in the country. And that is true in seven or eight other states that have had ballot initiatives passed since Roe v. Wade, dramatically liberalizing abortion laws, and it's going to happen in a number of other states next year. So, let's be really clear eyed and fact based when we talk about what our political involvement does and what it doesn't do. At the end of the day, if you want to win hearts and minds to stop the scourge of abortion, if you are a Christian, and you view this as your great crusade, then is voting for a candidate or putting a bumper sticker on your car, is that the way to win those hearts and minds? Because the fact is, if American evangelicals had put a fraction of the energy into the social side of abortion, of doing the hard work in the clinics, and helping the single mothers and doing the foster care that is needed to address this at its root, if they had been willing to do that over the last 50 years, my guess is that public opinion would be dramatically different as it pertains to abortion. And we wouldn't even be talking about Roe v. Wade, because the number of abortions would be so low in this country that it wouldn't even register. But we've sort of self-selected into this alternate universe where politicians are our savior, and that politics is the mechanism by which we right the wrongs in this country. And I'm sorry, but if you are citizens of another kingdom?, then you can't possibly believe that. You can't possibly believe that Donald Trump or that any other politician is the person who's going to ultimately right these great moral wrongs. But unfortunately, I think that's the trap we've fallen into. Julie Roys  39:51 You know, I used to be very involved in the prolife movement. I will say, almost all of the people that I knew when I was involved in the pro-life movement, were actually involved in reaching out to single moms and caring for them and caring for their unborn children. But I think what we've forgotten so much is that politics is downstream of culture. So, if you're losing the culture, which we clearly are to change the politics, if you've got a kid that's rebellious, a teenager who's rebellious in your home, locking down all the windows and the doors in your house, that's not going to keep your kid from sinning. What's going to keep your kid from sinning, is if you can winsomely love your child into relationship with Jesus Christ and to want to be like you and to want to adopt your values. But we've forgotten about that, we've become this, you know, Midas right. And I remember in 2016, writing a commentary, The Rise of Trump, The Fall of Evangelicalism, and I said, we may win this one, but we will lose in the long run, if we throw our convictions out the window, and we alienate everyone around us, by our you know, the way that we talk and the way that we relate to people. This is not how you win people to the Lord. That fell on, you know, really deaf ears. It actually lost me some key supporters too. But I just was stunned because I did not know who these people were that I thought believed the same way that I did and had the same values. And then I went, Wow, we are just on different planets, we really don't have that. Julie Roys  41:29 I want to look at one person, again, you have these palate cleansers within all of these sections. And one of them to me is Cal Thomas, who was very much a part of the right and so I can relate to that, because that was I mean, I used to be emceeing the banquet to raise money for you know, the political cause, or whatever it was. I don't do that anymore. Cal Thomas doesn't do that anymore. What changed Cal? TIM ALBERTA  41:58 It's so funny, Julie, because just a minute ago, when you were talking about what are the weapons of our warfare? I was thinking about Cal., because Cal for those who don't know his story, you know, he was Jerry Falwell Senior's lieutenant in the Moral Majority. And he was their spokesman for the Moral Majority. And the vice president of that organization, and, you know, was really heavily involved in the kind of crusading era of the Religious Right, he was a central figure. And then Cal really started to feel uneasy with what he was seeing around him. And he doesn't even sugarcoat it. We have this very raw conversation in the book where he talks about, you know, the corruption and the greed and the grift. And how he just couldn't justify it. He justified it for a while by saying, Well, look how many people we're reaching, and look at all this money coming in. So clearly, you know, God must be doing something here. And then he eventually just gets to a point where he says, No, this is a scam. It's just immoral. And he finally walks away. And then years later, he writes this book called Blinded by Might, where he kind of tries to atone. And he just says, Listen, I was a total believer in winning the culture war to protect Christian America, as you know, part of our duty, you know, to God's kingdom. And in fact, not only has it failed, but it has backfired spectacularly, that we have driven away so many people who need Jesus, but who won't have anything to do with us anymore, They won't even let us in the door to have a conversation because of the way we've treated them because of the way we've treated the culture. So, to your point about locking down the teenager in the house, right? Cal really eloquently and powerfully was giving voice to this when he wrote that book. And then, you know, in our interviews for this book, he's an older guy now he's 80. And he's looking back with such regret on those years and thinking about how did he in some way contribute to laying the groundwork for Trump ism as this kind of sub cult in the evangelical world. And what's most interesting to me from that whole conversation, and I said this to him, is that the more things have changed, the more they've stayed the exact same. I mean, this break that he's describing in the 1980s. And this kind of crisis of conscience that he's feeling is exactly what we're trying to address today. What I'm trying to address in the book now, which is that, listen, it doesn't have to be this way. You have a choice, right? We all have a choice. It was so incredibly unpleasant for me to write this book in a lot of ways, Julie. If I'm being totally honest, I probably couldn't have written it while my dad was still alive. It would have been too hard. Like I've had some people writing me emails this past week saying, oh, like thank you for your courage. Thank you for your brave, I don't feel courageous. I don't feel brave. I feel like a coward in a lot of ways that it took me so long and that a lot of ways took my dad dying and having those experiences at his funeral to finally be willing to acknowledge and use my platform, my relatively high profile journalistically speaking to address this thing that has been so clearly wrong for such a long time. And so, for anybody listening, whether it's in your individual congregation, your faith community, your family, whatever it is like, it doesn't have to be this way. And it takes people like Cal Thomas, kind of blowing up his own life, blowing up his tribal affiliations and walking away. It takes Pastor Brian Zahnd, who I write about in Chapter 15, who had a mega church of 5000 people, and they were making money hand over fist. And then he just woke up one day and had this like epiphany from the Lord that it was all wrong, and that it was so shallow, and it was doing such a disservice to the Gospel. And he blew up his mega church. He's got like 150 people who come every Sunday now and the sanctuary seats like 2000. And he made a choice, right? Cal Thomas made a choice. You've made a choice, Julie. And I just think like, at the end of the day, the people who make that choice and who decide to reckon with what this has become? I don't think they're going to regret it. I really don't. Julie Roys  46:05 I have not regretted it once being free of the whole evangelical industrial complex as it's called, and just being free to follow your conscience without thinking, what are the consequences if I speak the truth publicly? Like what's going to happen to me? Like I see so many Christians just living in fear that if they speak out, or they tell the truth that they know that something, you know, there will be bad consequences for me, and it just makes me wonder, do we believe the gospel, like do we believe the gospel? What gospel are we living on day-to-day basis? And I love Pastor Zahnd's story that was like one of my favorite stories. And it reminded me of the book because I just interviewed Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer and their book pivot, which talks about similar things, other churches that realized church is toxic. It's huge, it's successful, but I feel empty inside, you know, and I feel thin, and they made that pivot. And it may be to smaller church, it may be and it's interesting, though, you were saying how Zahnd's church is now starting to maybe even start to grow and become a little bit healthier. And so, when I hear that I say, it's going to take a while. But in this, you know, these ashes, do you see something growing that's beautiful there that can replace this ugliness that quite frankly, I think I just think it's doomed. I think it's coming down. I don't know that it will come down quickly. This complex that we've built, but I think it will come down eventually. It may take decades. But I think there will be a Christianity I hope this was my prayer that replaces it. And it's more organic and more Grassroots less big leadership and more the Body of Christ. TIM ALBERTA  47:48 Yes,  I do see something rising from the ashes. I can sense it, particularly among the younger generation. One of the things that consistently surprised me in all of my reporting, and it was a pleasant surprise, to be clear, was spending time with younger believers. They ideologically, culturally, politically, like they're really no different from their parents, like they check those boxes on paper. But then you kind of get into some of this with them. And they want nothing to do with Trumpism. They want nothing to do with Charlie Kirk, and I'm talking about like the serious believers. I'm not talking about like the very casual kids who identify as Christian, but then go to a Turning Point USA event. I mean, like, you spend time around Liberty, and like, yes, there are some MAGA kids at Liberty. But most of the kids you spend time with  at Liberty, including those who would self-identify as like, sure I guess on paper, I would be a Republican, because of abortion because of other issues, they will really eloquently and gracefully speak to these schisms. And they're so perceptive. I think that's the big thing, Julie, is that they can see it. Right? My generation, I kind of think of us as like the children of the Moral Majority. And we can now very clearly diagnose this in a way that my dad's generation probably couldn't, they were too close to it. They were too wrapped up in it. And I think, you know, in some ways, they almost I kind of tend to maybe just give them a little bit of a pass for that because they didn't have the appropriate distance to really assess it and analyze it in the way that I think I'm able to, and certainly in the way that the generations behind me are able to. They see what this is doing to the church, and they are saying no, thank you. Even at my home church, the guy who took over for my dad, almost run out of the place. He came very close to just quitting because it got so bad for him because he hears this young guy taking over this, this mega church congregation in a very conservative Republican community. And he's not particularly a conservative Republican. He's not like some big Democrat either. He's just a guy who like loves Jesus and who processes news events through the eyes of like the gospel, right? What's so interesting is that he lost a ton of his congregation. And then this past summer, I went back for the first time since my dad's funeral, and the place was packed, and I didn't recognize anybody there. And he comes out and gives this sort of fire and brimstone sermon, challenging them on the culture wars, challenging them on like, where are your priorities, really? What kingdom do you really belong to? And so that actually, I didn't aim to end the book on that optimistic note, but I was so encouraged by it, because it makes me think that in this market of supply and demand that you and I have talked about, and mostly we focused on the perverted nature of the supply and demand, that there is also maybe more demand out there than we realize for that true, pure form of the gospel. And so that is my hope, moving forward, and particularly with these younger Christians, who will demand something better than what we've seen so far. Julie Roys  50:53 I loved that I don't often read the epilogue, but in your book I did. And that was beautiful to read about Pastor Winans and the way that, you know, you kind of left them in the early chapters really disillusioned and discouraged. And then he comes back invigorated for the gospel, and preaching it so boldly and that really, pastors like that give me hope. And I know that there's probably a lot more of them than I encounter in you know, the line of work that I do, which usually means I hear about the worst of the worst all the time. Julie Roys  51:28 Let me just ask you about this most of your chapters are about political power and about the way that these kingdoms  and the power has sort of become an idolatrous thing. And then you turn your eye to corruption going on in the church and the abuse, the abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention, how that's been addressed recently, how Rachel den Hollander stood up to it and she went, you know, most people I'm sure listening know Rachel's story. But you know, one of the first gymnasts who came forward and told her story about Larry Nasser, and how he had abused so much of the, you know, US Olympic gymnasts team. And she went from being just Joan of Arc, I think you call it to being Jezebel, right? Or from Esther to Jezebel, because she spoke out about the evil in the church. And that's what I found. When I was at Moody Radio I was allowed to speak about Joel Osteen, right? Or I was allowed to speak about the liberals in politics. But when I turned my critique on our own tribe, man, I would get shut down, you know. That's one of the reasons I left Moody besides the others that I talked about. I couldn't speak out about the evil in our own house. And I feel that at this point, we have no moral platform as Christians to be speaking about the evil out in the world anymore, until we deal with the evil in our own house and the way that it's crept in. You know, judgment begins with the house of God. He doesn't expect, you know, the people who don't know him, to act any differently than they're acting, but He expects us to, and we're not. So, I appreciated that you put this chapter in the book, dealing with some of the abuse and the corruption within the church. But you could have easily left it out and just talked about the way that politics has, you know, really usurped the gospel. Why did you put this chapter in? TIM ALBERTA  53:28 One of the things that really bugs me, is how the New Testament model here and you were just alluding to this a moment ago. The New Testament model is not ambiguous. We are to treat outsiders with unlimited grace and kindness and compassion and forgiveness, because they don't know God, and they don't know any better. That is clear. And what is also clear is that we are to treat the insiders with the utmost accountability, and they are to be held to the highest standard because they do know God, and they do know better. That is the New Testament model. And we in the American church have completely flipped it. We have nothing but hostility, and animus and enmity towards the outside world. And we practice nothing but grace and forgiveness and cheap grace and cheap forgiveness inside the church. Right? And it drives me a little bit nuts. Because if you are the person out there in the world, who is sort of curious about Jesus, and you feel something missing in your life, what are the odds today that you're going to go to a local church and try to learn a little bit more? I mean, you know, you might say, Well, some people will, some people do Sure. But the statistics here don't lie, Julie. Like when you look back 30 or 40 years, the perception of the church among unbelievers in this country was incredibly positive. People who did not know Jesus looked at the church as a beacon of moral rectitude, of compassion, of social good. Even if they were never going to sit in the pews with us, even if they didn't believe any of the doctrine, they respected the church and they admire the church. And that has completely changed. It's just completely fallen apart. There are some people who will tell you like Robert Jeffers and I go back and forth on this in the book, he said, Well, that it doesn't matter, right? Those people aren't looking for the Lord. I completely disagree. I think the credibility of the church matters enormously. TIM ALBERTA  55:37 To your question of why did I feel compelled to include that chapter? Well, who's going to hold the church accountable? Is the church going to hold itself accountable? No, I mean, typically, institutions are not very good at self-policing. We know that from working in journalism, right? By the way, the media is not very good at self-policing. Actually, I could argue the media is terrible at self-policing. I mean, any big institution, it can't be expected to hold itself accountable. Okay, so what are the mechanisms for accountability here? If we care about the Bride of Christ, if we care about the credibility of the church, if we care about how the outside world perceives the church, which I think matters enormously, then what do we do to ensure that the church is on the up and up and is doing its duty before God and it's carrying out its purpose and its mission? You know, journalism has to play a role in that. I think, you know, the law has to play a role in that. I think that there are external forces, even, you know, gasp secular forces that have to play a role in that, because otherwise, we just leave these churches, these pastors to their own devices. And I'm sorry, but you don't need to read any other source then the Bible itself. You pick up the Bible itself, read from Old Testament to new and see how well that works out. We see it time and again. I there are not accountability structures in place, then things go very badly, very quickly. And so that's a long answer to your question. Julie Roys  57:06 Hmm. Well, I appreciate that. And I appreciate your book. And I know you're getting interviews all over the country. I saw you on CBS, Good Morning America; that was so exciting to see but really wonderful that you've gotten this platform to winsomely speak to the rest of society who I remember a couple of times, I got to be on NPR. They would ask me about evangelicalism, and they are always amazed, I think that I could even string two sentences together. And I was actually an evangelical right? But I am so thrilled that you are representing evangelicals because you're a face that and I don't know, do you still identify as Evangelical? TIM ALBERTA  57:49 not really, I don't fight the label, but I would not volunteer it for myself just because of exactly what we just described, you know. Somebody outside the church hears it, and they quickly shut down the conversation, because they don't really want anything to do with you. Julie Roys  58:01 I don't know if I would take that term, either. I'm kind of where you are, as well. But you're a Christian, and you love Jesus. And even when I heard you in that one interview recently said, How's your faith? and you're like, it's as strong as it's ever been. I thank you for that and for your witness, and for this book, and for giving me so much of your time. I really appreciate it. So, thank you, TIM ALBERTA  58:21 Thank you for all that you're doing. And thank you for saying that. It's very kind of you. We're ultimately playing some small part here in trying to get this thing back on track and doing it as humbly as possible. I hope that we can make a difference. Thank you for having me on. And I know that we'll continue to talk. Julie Roys  58:39 Absolutely. And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And just a quick reminder, if you'd like a copy of Tim Alberta's book, The Kingdome, The Power, and The Glory, we'd be happy to send you one for a gift of $50 or more to The Roys Report this month. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising, we simply have you, the people who care about exposing evil and restoring the church. So, if you'd like to support our work and get Tim's book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from the RESTORE conference. This one is by veteran church planter Lance Ford, who gave an amazing talk on the Christian addiction to leadership and why it's so toxic. I love this talk and I think you will too. So be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and as a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media. So, more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/CaDhqixI0jsExposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Powerful figures doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit—attacking the messenger, rather than holding their leader accountable. This edition of The Roys Report features a very personal talk from Restore Conference founder and journalist, Julie Roys, delivered at the recent event this past October. It's centered on one question: why continue reporting, advocating, and shining a light when doing so comes at such a high personal cost? Journalists like Julie often ask this question—and so do many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers, and allies. The work can be grueling, and the pay off at times seems minimal. But in this talk, Julie shares not just her own struggles, but also the convictions she's gained over years of exposing abuse and corruption. If you're struggling to keep fighting for truth and justice, this talk will not just encourage, but inspire you to keep going. Guests Julie Roys Julie Roys is a veteran investigative reporter and founder of The Roys Report. Julie previously hosted a national talk show on the Moody Radio Network, called Up for Debate. She also has worked as a TV reporter for a CBS affiliate in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and as a newswriter for WGN-TV and Fox 32 Chicago. Julie's work has also appeared in Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Federalist, and The Christian Post. She and her husband, Neal, live in the Chicago area and have three children and two grandchildren.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys Julie Roys  00:04Exposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Those doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit, attacking the messenger rather than holding their leader accountable. So why continue reporting and advocating and shining a light? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And the question of why not quit is one of those questions I’ve asked myself repeatedly over the years. And I know it’s not one that just journalists ask; many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers and allies do too. The work can be grueling and the payoff at times can seem minimal, so why not quit? Why keep fighting Goliath when the odds continually seem stacked in our opponent’s favor?   Julie Roys  00:52 What you’re about to hear is a very personal talk I gave at the 2023 RESTORE conference. The past 18 months have been especially hard for me. And there have been times when I’ve struggled profoundly with whether I can stay in this work without it deforming my soul. If you’re a survivor, or whistleblower or an ally, or maybe all of the above, you’ve probably experienced some of the same struggles. You may be struggling today. In this talk. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I’m still processing a lot of this stuff myself. But what I do is share my journey and why ,despite the difficulties, which are many and real, I’m not quitting. You’ll hear my talk in just a minute.   Julie Roys  00:52 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:37 Well, again, here’s the talk I gave a RESTORE 2023 on why not quit? Well, at the first RESTORE conference in 2019, I announced from this stage that we were experiencing an unmistakable move of God to purify his church. James MacDonald had just been exposed as the bully and hypocrite that he was and removed from Harvest Bible Chapel. Bill Hybels was exposed as a sexual predator, and people were finally believing the women, and revelations about Jerry Falwell, Jr. were just beginning to come out. And then donors alleging fraud won a massive $37 million dollar settlement from Gospel for Asia. Clearly God was cleaning house right? And over the next few years, the revelations just kept coming. Jerry Falwell, Jr, resigned from Liberty University amid shocking allegations of sexual and financial misconduct. Ravi Zacharias was shown to be a serial sexual predator, and RZIM was shut down. Hillsong began to implode beginning with Carl Lentz and his sexual misconduct going all the way to Brian Houston, and his sexual misconduct. And then I reported probably the biggest investigation I’ve ever done. I reported on John MacArthur, the supposed greatest expositor of the 20th century, that he had a pattern of shaming abuse victims and protecting their abusers. With story after story after story, the evil infecting the evangelical industrial complex, was being exposed and routed out. And probably more than any other time in my life, I felt like I was right in the middle of this remarkable thing that God was doing. Well, then I experience the most virulent backlash I have ever experienced. An army of YouTubers loyal to John MacArthur just kept hitting. They couldn’t go after the facts of my stories, so they went after me. And I became the poster child of the angry feminist proponent of CRT, wokism –  it didn’t matter whether I adhere to any of these things. They republished it anyway. And John MacArthur, despite everything I’d reported on him, he didn’t get canceled. He went and spoke at the Getty’s Sing conference. At the G3 conference, the Puritans conference. Sure, his reputation has been tarnished a bit. But those loyal dug in.   Well, then some anonymous Twitter accounts loyal to John MacArthur found some objectionable content in a book that I wrote in 2017. And soon I wasn’t just facing backlash from John MacArthur and those loyal to him, but from my own tribe, and from the survivor community. And people were hurt, and they were confused. And like I said, yesterday, some of that criticism was valid and deserved, and I didn’t get the power differential and someone a relationship with somebody that had been in a ministry that I had led, and that was my own responsibility. And I had assigned fault where it didn’t belong, where I should have taken responsibility. But some of the criticism was cruel. And it was patently false. And it was shockingly personal. And if you’ve never been in the midst of a public controversy like that, it’s kind of hard to explain. But it is a unique kind of awful. At least when you’re a private person and people talk about you, they have the decency to do it behind your back. But when you’re a public person, they do it in front of your family and your children and your friends and thousands and thousands of other people. And it was traumatic for me, I know it was even traumatic for some of you. And then perhaps smelling blood in the water, Protestia, a so-called discernment blog, lacking hardly any journalistic integrity, announced that they had a story that was going to expose me as a fraud. And on a Friday, they tweeted, were blocked but someone tag at reached Julie Roys, and give her a heads up in our next article about her revealing some of her shenanigans is really, really gonna sting. And then they published this video:   07:05 I said at the very at the very beginning, that we have some more information coming out about Julie Roys that I’m hoping to have out to you by Monday but suffice it to say it’s going to blow up the facade of Julie Roys as an ethical investigative journalist. We have some information about some very unethical, I would say immoral, but certainly unethical., things that Julie Roys has been caught saying and doing and promoting that we’re going to be releasing this information, hopefully by Monday. So, stay tuned to Protestia.com for that information. I want to thank you all again for joining me tonight on this live stream.   Julie Roys  08:06 So that came out on a Friday, so I had the whole weekend. I’m on pins and needles a whole weekend and I’m like what awful thing did I just do? I have no idea what I just did. So, I’m waiting for this to come out and on Monday Protestia published this menacing tweet. Apparently the story had been delayed a day. But will come out the next morning. Yet on Tuesday instead of publishing their big expose on me Protestia had to publish a retraction saying they almost got conned by an abuse survivor. Of course, they’ve got conned because they went forward with all of these allegations on Friday. Apparently a woman had fabricated some emails that she said were from me. And in these emails, I allegedly said that she should go forward with 300 allegations against a well-known Christian figure whether they were true or false. And sadly, Protestia didn’t do the very basics, the number one thing that you do when someone’s accused, is you go to the accused, and you ask for their side of the story. They didn’t do that until Tuesday, when they started to recognize some things might be going wrong. And they had accepted these fabricated emails as fact for about three days and went forward with those, again, libelous, and slanderous allegations,. The experience was unnerving, especially in the middle of what I was dealing with. But it wasn’t the last hoax I faced either. Someone close to James McDonald came after me with wild allegations that I covered up a child sex abuse scandal at Harvest Bible Chapel when I was investigating it. Nothing could have been further from the truth. Yet, some survivor advocates picked up that story as well and they began tweeting and retweeting it. And I had to track down a story that was three years old and find the emails and the texts and go back to the primary sources and publish my own story, showing that these allegations were false. And whatever momentum that I had going into all of this was completely eradicated. I was just trying to keep my head above water. Emotionally, I was spinning. It was so, so tough.   Julie Roys  10:21 And then people started talking about whether or not I was going to quit. In fact, I got a call from a colleague of mine, and was actually the only journalist who called me in the midst of this. And he said, Julie, I am watching what’s going on online. And he’s like, are you all right? And it was really sweet. And I don’t even know what I said. I was playing blubbering something. But it was a sweet call. But at the end of the call, he’s like, hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but if you do resign, can I have the interview? I was a little taken aback, but then I got a call from a former blogger, who I got to know really well through an investigation. And he gave me permission to share what I’m going to share with you. But he just asked that I call him by his first name, his first name, Scott. And so, he said something very similar. He said, Julie, I’m watching what’s happening to you on Twitter right now. And I just have to tell you as your friend, like, this is painful. He’s like, You don’t owe me an explanation. I know you. I know your character. But don’t take this the wrong way. But have you thought about quitting? And he’s like, I love you and I care about you, and I’ve actually jotted down some reasons that I think you should consider. And would you be willing to just hear me out on this? And I love Scott. I respect Scott. And I knew the heart that he was saying this was, so I said, Sure. Scott, go ahead. Tell me what you think. And he said, one, I noticed that you’re taking all this friendly fire. See, usually, my accusers are the defenders of whatever church leader it is, that’s  caught in the crosshairs of some investigation. But now, my accusers were my own tribe. It was people, some people from the survivor community. And let me just preface what Scott said, by saying, I have found that the survivor community and the people in this room, that some of you have been some of the most gracious people that I know. And the love that I was shown from some of you was so touching. And I have so much respect for survivors. Because survivors have been through hell, and they’ve come out with this beauty. So many of you. And so, it really was a small segment of the survivor community that was really being nasty. But he said, Julie, given the way that you’ve been treated by your own tribe, why would you keep reporting their stories? And I know some of you know what that feels like. Because you’ve tried to help with something. And you stepped out and you’ve messed up in some way and the backlash, and what happened to you when you did that, made you feel like I don’t even want to do that again. Like why try? And that’s how I felt a little bit at that point.   Julie Roys  13:22 But then he said, secondly, maybe your work to expose abuse and corruption is done. And by this, he didn’t mean there weren’t any more abusers out there or anymore corruption. What he was saying is that there’s a pattern. In fact, there’s so much of a pattern, you just see it playing out again and again, and again. It’s like Wade Mullens said in his book, something’s not right. They’re all using the same playbook. They all use the same tactics. He’s like, have you thought that maybe, just maybe, those who have ears to hear have heard and the rest won’t ever listen to it anyway. But lastly, and this is the one that really kind of hit home. And he said, Julie, do you ever wonder in what ways reporting on all of these vile things in the church and living in this constant pressure cooker is molding you and forming you into someone that you don’t want to be? And then he quoted Friedrich Nietzsche, who said, Whoever battles monsters should see to it in the process, that he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the Abyss also looks back at you. And then Scott recalled ways that when he was blogging, that he’d start to see how this was affecting him negatively. That’s part of the reason he stopped doing it. And he said, Julie,  don’t take this as a confrontation. I’m not saying that I see this in you yet. But when I read some of the comments sometimes at your website, that’s when I begin to see it. He’s like, It’s like Grace is disappearing. And friend, you know the verse in the passage in Corinthians, If I speak with the tongues of angels, but have not love, I am nothing but a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal or in my situation, if I expose every predator pastor and defend every vulnerable victim, but have not love, I am nothing. And I know again, my experience is unique in some ways, but it’s not. Also, some of you have been reporting, maybe not as a journalist, but in other ways have been trying to expose abuse and corruption in the church for far longer than I have. Some of you that have spoken at this conference have suffered far worse than I could even imagine,  for standing up for the truth. And you may not be journalists, although there’s some in this room. But you’re bloggers and podcasters and whistleblowers, lawyers, pastors, allies, advocates. And you may today profoundly feel betrayed by those that you expected to support you. A sense of futility about the work that you’re doing. And there are moments when you feel like your work, or advocacy is molding you into someone that you don’t want to be. And you may be wondering, is it worth it? Should I just get out of the trenches? Should I stop doing this and maybe just go to Colorado and hike mountains every day?   Julie Roys  16:39 I have wrestled with all these things profoundly. And I don’t speak today as someone who has all the answers. I am in process like a lot of you. But I do feel like God has spoken to me with some resolution on some of these things. And I just want to share with you kind of what God’s been saying to me, in the hopes that it’ll help you as you wrestle through some of these things as well.   Julie Roys  17:05 So let me talk about the first issue that Scott raised, and that’s betrayal. I mean, why report or advocate or serve or pastor on people who may at any point turn on you? First, let me say, it goes both ways. I’ve been hurt by some survivor advocates, some of them innocently, some of them maliciously. But I’ve hurt some people in this room. I’ve had to ask forgiveness for some people in this room. And they’ve had to show me grace. And so, in some ways, there’s really nothing unique about this. If you’re working with people, we’re going to disappoint each other, right? We’re going to let each other down, we’re going to have to ask for forgiveness, we’re going to have to extend grace. But this is I think the question itself had an assumption in it, and that is that I’m doing what I’m doing for survivors. And I love survivors. I love you guys, and I consider myself now after some of the stuff I’ve been through, one of them too; absolutely love you guys.   Julie Roys  18:20 But this is what I told Scott, or at least what I was thinking at the time, I can’t remember if I told him. But I’m not doing this for survivors. Maybe as a secondary reason, yes. But I don’t think any of us can stay in the work that we’re doing long term if we’re primarily doing it for people. Because when you’re doing it for people, your eyes are always on the worthiness of a person. And we’re pretty darn fallible. In the long term, if that’s what we do, we’re gonna end up very bitter and angry and burned out. The primary reason I’m doing what I’m doing, and I would suggest that all of us should be doing whatever work it is, as an act of worship to God. We’re serving God. And you’ve probably heard the story of Mother Teresa, where she was with a journalist in Calcutta. And he saw her cleaning out this infected wound that was this maggot infested. And he said, “I wouldn't do what you’re doing for a million dollars. And she shot right back, I wouldn’t either. She got that when she served the person on the street, she was serving Jesus. And so, whenever we’re serving whatever capacity it is, we are serving Jesus. I would also say that I do believe God called me to this work.   Julie Roys  19:45 I never would have imagined five years ago that I would be doing what I’m doing today. It was the furthest thing from my imagination. And I bet for some of you in this room 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you never would have imagined you would be here either, or you never would have imagined the set of circumstances that put you in this room right now. And I’m guessing that if you look back over the ,5, 10, 15, however many years it’s been, if you look carefully, you can see the hand of God in your life, putting you where you are right now. It is not the road you would have chosen, but it’s the road that God worked redemptively in.   Julie Roys  20:31 Five years ago, I was a radio host on the Moody Bible Institute, Moody Radio Network. I’d just written a book, I was getting booked at these women’s conferences, ironically, one at Harvest Bible Chapel. I was getting booked on all these radio programs, I was on my way to becoming, God forbid, a Christian celebrity. But then I learned about corruption and abuse at the Moody Bible Institute. And I was the one person who not only had the inside information, but I also had the training and the skills to know what to do with that to expose it. And so, it didn’t take too long before it became a matter of conscience where I felt like if I didn’t say something, that I would be disobeying God. And some of you know exactly what I’m talking about, because you’ve sat in that situation before, where you’ve known that to stay quiet is to disobey God. But you have absolutely no guarantee that if you speak out, that it’s going to go well for you. In fact, you’re pretty darn sure that if you do speak out, it’s gonna go a lot worse. And that’s what happened for me. I got fired from Moody Bible Institute. Ironically, they also pressured the top three executives to resign that I had reported on. But I had broken the silent rule, which is, you never speak about these things publicly. I was actually told by a board member on the phone, that the reason they fired me is because the interim president told them that I had signed an NDA. And I will never forget the shock in his voice  when I told him that several years before when they had moved me from full time to part time that they had given me an NDA, and I fought it with everything I was worth. There was absolutely no way that as a journalist, I would sign something that resigned me to silence, absolutely no way. And he immediately said, Oh, I gotta go and hung up. And despite the fact that they had absolutely no grounds for firing me, I was completely blacklisted in the evangelical industrial complex. And many of you know what that is like too. I knew it would happen, just wasn’t, I had been in it for about 10 years. So, I knew how the game worked.   Julie Roys  23:02 And I thought when I got fired, this would be a great thing. I’ll have more time with my kids, and now my grandkids. But then survivors from Harvest Bible Chapel came to me begging me to hear their stories and do what I had done at Moody for Harvest. And then survivors from Mark Driscoll’s church came and said, “Would you please listen to us and report on what’s happening here? And then Steve Baughman gave me a copy of his book, Cover Up in the Kingdom. And he said, Julie, I’ve been reporting for years about how Ravi Zacharias is a fraud, but nobody will listen to me because I’m an atheist, but they’ll listen to you because you’re one of them. And God brought me story after story after story. And every single time I didn’t hear like the audible voice of God, but I felt very much that he was saying, keep reporting. And so that’s what I’ve tried to do. And ironically, God took the one thing that I thought would end my career, blowing the whistle on the Moody Bible Institute, and he used it to launch The Roys Report. And he used hurting people that I got to know in my reporting on Harvest and Willow Creek to start this conference. And I just see his hand working redemptively in all things. And I bet some of you like I said, if you look back over your life, and even this chapter, you might be able to see God’s hand working redemptively. Maybe not yet. Some of you I know, because I’ve talked to you and it’s like, you’re hanging by a thread right now. And you can’t even believe that the things that have happened to you at the hands of people you loved, and you trusted, and you thought were members of the kingdom and you were all working on the same team, did you what they did. And I would just encourage you for whatever mustard seed of faith that you have, hang on to Jesus. Just hang on. Because I also know that there’s others of you today that you never would have believed, you never would have believed 10 years ago that you would be where you are today. You never would have believed you’d be able to heal. You never would have believed with what you went through, that you would have the confidence and the courage that you have today that you will be as healed as you are. And I just want to remind you, that’s not just because you’re amazing. A lot of you are amazing. And you’re an incredible inspiration to me, and you have been through far more than I ever will go through and ever dream of going through, I would just encourage you to see the way that God has been working in your life doing what he said he would do, that he began a good work in you will carry it on to completion to the day of Christ Jesus.   Julie Roys  25:57 I don’t think it’s trite, that what God did in the Old Testament with Joseph that he still does today. That he takes the evil that was done against us, and he works it for good. And if he’s calling you to a certain work, I would just encourage you to do it with all your might, as unto the Lord. And I’m not going to quit because of the pushback. I think it comes with the territory. In fact, I had an editor once who said Julia, if you’re not getting any hate mail, then you’re probably just not saying anything.   Julie Roys  26:38 But what about the second reason that Scott mentioned? The seeming futility of fighting this evil that seems to have worked itself through the entire dough of evangelicalism and within the church, and you seem to be fighting this giant that is so incredibly massive, and all the people with power are propping it up. And quite frankly, we don’t have very much. In fact, in comparison, we’re just gnats; we’re like so small. You know, last night we heard from Jason and Lorie Adams Brown. And if you know their story, you know that they blew the whistle on Andy Wood, who had been at Echo church because of the spiritual abuse that they received at his hands. Despite the fact that they blew the whistle on him, and I had the privilege of reporting their story, Saddleback Church went ahead and hired him, and he is now the successor for Rick Warren at Saddleback Church.   Julie Roys  27:42 But it was so encouraging to hear from them how their courage and their speaking out, cause other people who had been similarly abused by some of the same people to come to them, and talk to them about the abuse. And for them to say how they got their voice back because that’s what abusers do. They take away your voice. And to reclaim your voice is a very important thing. It is empowering. And then they talked about how another story that came to me because I published that first story was stories about how Andy Wood and Echo Church had stolen these vulnerable congregations that own these multimillion-dollar buildings and had tried to steal those buildings. And a major Baptist leader went on the record with me talking about his experience of Andy Wood trying to steal numerous churches. And that never would have come out had they not spoken.   Julie Roys  28:42 I also recently produced a podcast with Emily Hyland, who’s at this conference. And Emily was a victim of abuse by Dane Ortlund, who’s a pastor in this area. And Emily told me that after we published the podcast, now she’s beginning to hear from other people who have similarly been abused by Dane Ortlund, and now they’re beginning to get their voice and they’re thinking of going on the record. And just a little bit ago, I published the story about Churchome. This is this West Coast church pastored by celebrity pastor Judah Smith, and the first piece that I did on Churchome was about this woman who had been raped by one of their pastors. And they even did an independent investigation and found out that there’s credible evidence, in fact beyond a reasonable doubt that her allegation was true. So, they pressured him, and he resigned from the church and three years later, they hired him back over her objections. And literally the same day, I started getting emails and texts and different things from women who had similarly been abused at that church and wanted to go forward with their story and I was able to do a three-part series on what Churchome had done. And right now, I can’t tell you what the story is because I haven’t published it yet. But I have a big one. And it’s due to another person at Churchome, seeing what we just reported. And now that person came forward and gave me a bunch of information. And that’s how it happens. Every single time with story after story after story. It’s like this little fire starts here, and then it spreads here, and then here, here, and soon the whole hillside is ablaze. And friends, that’s how movements happen. That’s how they grow. But it takes time, and it takes perseverance.   Julie Roys  30:34 At the first RESTORE, I said that this unmistakable move of God that it was not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Now, at that point, I thought we were in like mile 9 or 10. The more I’ve done this now I’m thinking we’re on four or five, we may be on two or three. And I hate to break that news to you. But I really do. People have compared this current state of the church to the Catholic church before the Reformation. I actually think that’s a fair comparison. It is that corrupt. It is that widespread. Do you know how long the Reformation took? Historians date it from 1517 to 1648. Friends that is 131 years. How about slavery? Let’s just look at England. It took William Wilberforce fighting passionately, so much so that his own health suffered greatly for two decades to abolish slavery in England, because friends, that’s how institutionalized evil and that is what we are dealing with institutionalized evil. That’s how it’s dismantled. So, do I get discouraged? 100%. I’m human. Are there days when it’s hard to persevere? But I believe the corruption in the church is the most serious threat to this country. And most Christians don’t even know it. That’s the shocking thing. Most Christians aren’t even aware of it. And you say, Well, how can I say that? How many times have we heard the hope of the world is Jesus and his means of rescuing the world is thank you, the church. And we’re supposed to be the salt of the earth. We’re supposed to be a light on the hill, and we are Sodom and Gomorrah. And yet, what are most all the Christian leaders doing right now? What are they talking about? They’re talking about all the sin out there. Right? They’re talking about everything that’s bad out there in the world. Like they have a moral platform to stand on. And they’re not talking about the sin in their own house, none of them. And unless we deal with the sin in our own house, there’s no way, there’s no way that we’re going to reform this country. And it certainly isn’t by electing some politician.   Julie Roys  33:21 But I would encourage you, and this is what I see happen a lot, is that people get really excited about a story that touches them personally. And thank God because every time I report a new story, there are people who are totally unaware that this is going on, and they become aware. But then what happens is they move on with their life. And I’m not saying that you shouldn’t move on with your life. Dear Lord, if all of us lived in, I’ve got a weird call. I get that. I got a weird personality too. I make mugs. Actually. I have people make them for me, but the biggest insults I get I actually enjoy that at times. I’m just kind of weird that way. But I’m just there is an element to which we can’t all live in that intensity, and I get that. But what I’m saying is, don’t just move on and forget there’s other people stuck. Don’t just move on. Keep your love for the church and for the mission and for the restoration of this thing that Jesus died for and that he loves. And don’t forget that if not you, who? So, am I going to quit because the progress is slow and hard? No. I’m going to keep in mind one of my favorite verses First Corinthians 15:58. Therefore my dear brothers and sisters, do not lose heart. Stand firm. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.   Julie Roys  35:07 And now I’m going to address the most concerning issue that Scott raised. And that is what if in the process of fighting the monster, you become the monster? Last year Christian therapist and trauma expert Dr. Diane Langberg, said from the stage that the way that you recognize a wolf is you don’t become one. Some people took offense at that, because they said, listen, we’re not all going to become pedophiles. We’re not all rapists, we’re not like on that level. And they’re right. It takes a certain level of pathology to do something like that. And most people, quite frankly, aren’t there, thank God. That said, that’s not what Diane was saying. What Diane was saying is that every single one of us, every single one of us has a sin nature. And if we don’t keep that in check, we can succumb to a lot of the same things as the people I report on. I would be lying if I said that I didn’t have some of the vices of the people I report on because I do. I struggle with anger, bitterness, contempt, self-pity, that’s a big one, pride. And the more I uncover and the more that I see innocent people abused by these people, the more difficult it becomes to deal with some of those vices. It can become a death spiral. And the spiritual death that we see in other people can become our spiritual death. Dr. Lambert writes about this in her devotional book called In Our Lives First. And this is a book that I’ve read twice, devotionally over the past 18 months. I’ll probably read it again over the next year because this is something that I constantly need to be reminded of. And she writes, those of us who work with such deaths must be extremely careful not to catch the diseases that surround us. We must be careful not to assume that catching such diseases is hard to do. Working with sin, suffering and evil can easily numb the heart. Numbness leads to death, if left alone. She also writes, counselors, though this is true of investigative reporters, it’s true of pastors, it’s true of Survivor advocates, many others. We are handling toxic things, and we have toxins in our own hearts, and it is not hard to either be destroyed by the work or to destroy those who come to us for help. So, what do we do? Do we quit working in the trenches? Lori Anne suggested that some people should quit. I’m not going to argue with Lori Anne. Maybe I tweak it a little bit. Let me just speak to those of you who like me grew up in a home where personal responsibility and duty was a big thing. Any of you? okay. And so sometimes those of us who grew up in these homes tend to do things because we feel like we have to, and we have a sense of responsibility and duty. And we can be destroying ourselves and destroying the relationships with those we love the most. Yet we keep doing it because we think we have to. Am I right? Can I get an Amen? Now, right? I don’t think God is honored when we destroy ourselves. And I tell you what, he’s certainly not honored, when eventually that turns into harm for others, because eventually that’s what happens. So, if that’s you, and that’s happening, you know, maybe you don’t need to have a frontline role. Maybe you can just step back for a season. Maybe you can support some people that are out there. You know, maybe you can adjust your role or maybe you do take a little bit of a break. Or maybe you do go to Colorado for three weeks and hike mountains. But is there a way? Is there a way to remain in work that exposes us to the vilest, the vilest things that happen in this world, yet instead of destroying us, it actually aids in our own sanctification? Sanctification, just a theological word for the process of becoming like Jesus.   Julie Roys  39:53 I grew up in the holiness movement. You may not know what that means. That’s okay. But in the holiness movement, we talked a lot about sanctification. And we talked a lot about a second work of the Holy Spirit, kind of like charismatics talk about a baptism of the Holy Spirit, except the manifestation within the holiness movement isn’t tongues, the manifestation is power over sin in your life. And we weren’t against tongues. Speak in tongues? Absolutely. Just like Paul said, I wish you all were like me. Just if it doesn’t lead to your sanctification, what good is it? That’s the point is that we become like Jesus, right? Diane Langberg writes a lot about sanctification. She doesn’t urge counselors to quit their work. Instead, she implores them to pursue Jesus. She writes, we have not heard God clearly if we fail to understand that one of the requirements for our work is that God’s sanctifying work must go on continually in us as well. If it does not, while we may appear for a time to be doing his work, eventually what is true will be made manifest. That we have not for the sake of others, meant to the sanctification process ourselves, we will damage his world, His people and His name, may it never be so.   Julie Roys  41:17 One of the great tragedies of the epidemic of abuse and corruption in the evangelic church is that it is pushing people away from Jesus. And many because of the hurt that they’ve experienced are beginning to deconstruct their faith. And I’m not dissing deconstruction. Many of us need to go back and reevaluate a lot of the beliefs that we took in and begin to think about those and we need a safe place to do that in. We need people who are safe people to do that with, we need safe people. We need to be safe people. And I’d be lying if I didn’t say that what I have been exposed to hasn’t caused me to doubt my faith. In fact, the hardest question for me has been does Christianity, does it make people worse? Or does it make people better? Because I’ve seen some really devout Christians who have incredible grip of Scripture, incredible grip of theology much better than I do. And yet they are some of the most wicked people I have ever known in my life. And I tell you what I’ve become convinced of, I’ve concluded that Christianity, divorce from a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ and reduced to a theological system, a moralistic system, or God forbid, a political one is absolutely heinous. And it does make people into monsters.   Julie Roys  43:06 But I believe a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ is not only helpful in helping us deal with the vilest thing of this world, it is 100% essential. I know my relationship with Jesus has sustained me over the past 18 months. I remember several weeks before last year’s RESTORE conference, and I was a mess, and Dr. Diane Langberg got on a zoom call with me for about 90 minutes. And she was so loving, and so gracious, which I’m sure is not hard for you to imagine. And she was Jesus to me. And I remember saying to her, Diane, the hardest part about this whole thing to me is that I’ve been accused of these awful things, and I can’t say anything. I remember having a very close friend who said, Julie, if you step down from that conference, everybody’s going to assume that everything that was said about you is true. And Diane said to me, she said, Julie, this is an opportunity for you to enter into Christ’s sufferings. And initially, I thought about that very much in a martyr sort of way. Because if you’ve been wronged in some way, it’s really really easy to get a martyr complex. Super easy. But it hasn’t been like that.   Julie Roys  44:43 So, I had a very profound experience with a spiritual coach mentor about, I don’t know, seven or eight months ago where we were just doing some breathing exercises because I was kind of worked up. It’s hard to imagine I know. And while we’re in the process of this, she said, just experience the Lord’s compassion. And that morning, I had read about Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. And I began imagining being in the garden of Gethsemane with Jesus. I have a pretty vivid imagination. So, I’m there and I’m looking at his face and I see just incredible pain on his face. And it strikes me he’s just been betrayed by one of his 12 closest companions. And one of his three closest friends is going to deny him three times. And I felt betrayed by people who are frankly kind to strangers. I don’t really even know any more. And then Jesus is literally sweating, beads of blood. I had gone through some emotional trauma; I’ve never done that. And then Jesus is thinking about this in the night before he’s going on the cross. I began thinking of this, he’s going to be tortured to death the next day. I have never in my life been tortured for my faith. I read Miriam’s book, and I was devastated. What that woman has gone through, and she has overcome. I am in awe of her. Jesus suffered. The immensity of His suffering began to hit me. And I in that moment, finally didn’t feel sorry for myself. And somehow, in that whole process, I felt more unified with Jesus than I’d ever felt before. And there was this oneness, and somehow now what I had gone through had meaning and that made all the difference in the world. I’ve also been thinking about the fact that Jesus died for his enemies. I have enemies now. I don’t think I had enemies before I started reporting. Like I people didn’t like me. But enemies. I mean, somebody really bent on your destruction like that, actually schemes about it. I have those now. Some of you have those now. I’m having a tough enough time forgiving them. Dying for them? Man. And here’s where it gets tough because Jesus says we’re supposed to have the same attitude that he had.   Julie Roys  47:29 I was challenged by a friend several years ago, to just read through the Old Testament, and read about every single time that a prophet brings a word of judgment to people. It took me several months, but I went ahead and did it. And something dawned on me. Every time that God gave a prophet a harsh word to say to his people, it was never because he wanted to destroy them. We see this in the story of Jonah, right? You all know the story. Jonah is told to go to the Ninevites. Nineveh is the capital of the Assyrian bloodthirsty, hostile people, the enemies of the Israelites. And what does he do? He goes to Tarsus gets on a ship and they go out to the Mediterranean. The big storm comes they throw him overboard, fish swallow them, he’s in the fish three days, vomited up on dry land, and he says, Okay, fine, I’ll go to Nineveh, goes to Nineveh for three days. He tells the Ninevites that in 40 days, God’s going to destroy you. And then the Ninevites do a most remarkable thing. They actually repent and God has mercy on them. But Jonah, what does he do? He becomes despondent. He says to the Lord, oh, Lord, is this not what I said when I was in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarsus, for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love unrelenting from disaster. Therefore,  oh Lord, please take my life for me. For it is better for me to die than to live. Jonah had become every bit as hard-hearted as the people that he hated. And if that can happen to a prophet of God, it can happen to me, can happen to any one of us.   Julie Roys  49:29 So, this is kind of a heart check for us. This heart check for me, I began to think about this. Like what if John MacArthur repented? It’s hard to imagine. The man’s never apologized that I know of. That’s what I’m told from everybody near him. But let’s imagine he did. What if John MacArthur went to Eileen Gray, and he said, Eileen, I’m so sorry. When your husband tried to suffocate your daughter and the abuse was so brutal in your home that you came to the church, you came to us for help. And instead of helping you, we told you to drop that protective order that you would have gotten against him to protect, not you, but your children. And in front of the entire church, I, the shepherd shamed and excommunicated you simply for trying to protect your children. And years later, years later when it came out that he had sexually abused your children and was convicted by court, and you know how hard it is to be convicted in California of child abuse? And they sent him to prison? I still maligned you, and I protected your abuser. Oh, Eileen, I am so sorry. I have sinned against you. I’ve sinned against my church; will you forgive me? Or what if he went to Wendy Gray and, Wendy, when you came to me, or when your father came to me when you were just a teenager, and he confessed to my face, that he had sexually molested you, and I kept him on staff another three years and I wrote you that handwritten note telling you to forgive your father? That was wrong, that was a sin against you. And years later, decades later, when that action of mine had devastated your life, and you simply came to me because you wanted support going to the elders of the church, where your father was still pastoring. And at this point, you knew that he was a serial abuser, he was abusing many people because that’s what pedophiles do. Instead of coming with you instead of supporting you, instead of repenting for what I did, I said in an email to you, why has this become such an obsession for you? That devastated you. That was my fault. I am so sorry. Will you forgive me for that? Do I want John MacArthur to receive grace? Do I want him to repent? or would I rather him see his maker and try and make that excuse to him? Honestly? It’s a little bit of a struggle. But I thought about that. Imagine if John MacArthur repented? I mean, really repented? Can you imagine the ripple effect that would have? How many pastors that would affect in this church? Can you imagine what that would do? Unbelievable what would happen if John MacArthur repented. Would I rejoice at that? You bet I’d rejoice at that. That could be the start of revival in this church. That’s what we need to see – is pastors repenting.   Julie Roys  53:09 But I tell you what, that is not natural for me. I tell you what’s natural for me. When somebody hurts me, I want them to hurt in the same way that they hurt me. Can I get an amen? That’s human nature, isn’t it? The only reason that I have any grace in my heart is because of Jesus Christ. Because I wouldn’t have it without him. And without him, I would become a monster, I am convinced of it. And that’s why one of many reasons why I need Jesus. But now I’m going to say something a little bit controversial. I’ve also found that I need Christian community. And I know some of you have been so burned by your Christian community, and I don’t blame you for not wanting to darken the doors of the church. Three and a half years ago, we lost a church, or we left the church that I thought we would be in the rest of our lives. I thought it was different. I loved that church dearly. I loved the people in it. But the last straw for us was when they covered up sex abuse. And at that point, we just couldn’t trust the leadership anymore. And for two years, we went from church to church to church to church, and it was unbelievably depressing. And I won’t go into all the reasons it was depressing. I think you all know. But two weeks before everything blew up in my life when this whole controversy hit last year. Two weeks before that a professional colleague invited me to his house church. And here’s what’s kind of ironic, that professional call I happen to be the CEO of Christianity Today. Now, if you know anything about my past, which you may not, I have not had a great relationship with Christianity Today. That CEO, though, has since publicly apologized for some of the stuff that CT did to me under his predecessor. But two weeks before this happened, I was like, Great, yeah, I’ll try anything at this point. So, my husband and I went to the church, the house church. And it was great, we loved it. I was like, this is really super. Between week one and week two, everything in my world blew up, and I had to resign from the conference. And I remember walking into that house church with people I knew two weeks. And I wasn’t really planning on sharing this. But somebody noticed something I had said, and then when we were in small groups, they said something, and I just, and I’m bawling in front of people I don’t even know, hardly. But over the past 18 months, that’s become my Christian community. And I was invited into a women’s cohort. And that became a support for me. And the leader of the women’s cohort said, “Julie, do you have a prayer team? And I said, Well, I used to have a prayer team, but it’s kind of fizzled. And I don’t honestly even have the strength to put one together. And she says, I’ll do it for you. And so, once a month, we have this really sweet prayer time with a small group of people. And they’ve been some of the best times for me, and I honestly shudder to think of where I would be right now, if for the past 18 months, I had done that in isolation. And so, I’m so grateful for Christians in my life, who have been the hands and the feet of Jesus to me and who have loved me. And I don’t know. I can’t speak to your situation. I know some of you feel like you’re in a wasteland. And I know you feel like all the churches in your area are bad. And I don’t, I’m not even going to argue with you. I would just encourage you to not give up, to not give up. And to keep hoping, keep pressing into Jesus keep looking for Christian community. And I don’t know how God will meet that in your life. But I just trust he will because that’s just God’s nature. And I don’t know how long the wasteland will be, but it won’t last forever.   Julie Roys  57:40 So, we’re going to close this conference the way we close every single RESTORE conference, and that’s with communion. And Paul Lundquist, who is a local pastor who has been a dear friend of this ministry, and so supportive of what we’re doing is going to come and lead us in communion where we celebrate not just our oneness with Christ, but our oneness together as his body. So, Paul, would you come?   Julie Roys  58:05 Well, I hope you’ve been encouraged by what you just heard. And I wish you could have been there to experience communion together with those dear and beautiful souls at the RESTORE conference. That is a memory I will not soon forget. And I hope you’ll make it a point to join us at the next RESTORE conference, which we’ll be announcing soon. Also, I want to mention that the videos of these talks are all available at my YouTube channel. And we’re not charging anything for those. We just really want as many people as possible to benefit from these RESTORE conference talks. But friends, I’m sure you’re aware that producing these podcasts and videos is not cheap. So, if you appreciate this content and you’re able to help, would you please consider donating to The Roys Report, especially as you’re considering your end of the year donations, please remember us and the work that we do. We’re running a bit in the red this year so your gifts are especially critical, so we can continue podcasting and reporting at the same level. To donate just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript Third-party investigations have become increasingly common as churches and Christian institutions continue to be rocked by scandal. But how can you tell if an investigation is truly independent—or just another attempt to cover up?   In this edition of The Roys Report, experts address the red flags and key features to look for in any so-called “independent” investigation. And they answer questions like: Can a third-party investigation by a law firm ever be truly independent? What advantages are there to hiring an investigative team that's familiar with church culture to conduct investigations involving Christian institutions? And what are the hallmarks of a “trauma-informed” investigation? The answers to these questions are especially relevant due to the current controversy over the third-party investigation announced by the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, or IHOPKC. Mike Bickle, IHOPKC's founder, has been accused of abusing multiple women and IHOPKC leaders have been accused of mishandling reports of abuse. After announcing it had hired a national law firm to conduct the investigation, IHOPKC changed course and dismissed the law firm. Then, it hired another law firm, but is refusing to divulge the name of the new firm.  Joining us on the podcast is a top American litigator and former GoDaddy general counsel, who's also a Christian with a passion to protect victims. That litigator is Christine Jones, who also serves on the board of The Roys Report. She has considerable expertise in this area and her insights on this issue are incredibly helpful. Two other experts joining me, Pete Singer and Robert Peters, are known for the organization they lead—Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment, or GRACE. GRACE has become the gold standard in the Christian survivor community because of the quality of its investigations and its commitment to protect survivor interests.  Listen now for a lively, and eye-opening discussion that will help you discern whether to trust a third-party investigation—or to cry foul. Guests Christine N. Jones Christine N. Jones is a top American litigator, business executive, and civic leader who has a passion to protect the vulnerable. Until 2012, she served as general counsel for GoDaddy. During her time there, she helped drive federal Internet-related legislation, including laws to keep the internet safe from child predators like the Protect Our Children Act and the Keeping the Internet Devoid of Sexual Predators Act. Christine also practiced law at Beus Gilbert, which has been ranked as one of the top law firms in the country. She also served several years as the COO of the Prostate Cancer Foundation. Christine recently launched her own firm, Newman Jones, a private law firm in Arizona, which specializes in representing victims of abuse in churches and Christian organizations. Pete Singer Pete Singer is Executive Director at GRACE, which focuses on abuse prevention and response in faith communities. He is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker with 30+ years' experience across settings. He received his MSW and certificate in Trauma-Effective Leadership from the University of Minnesota. He trains and writes on trauma-informed practice and his counseling practice focuses on children and adults who have experienced trauma. He has published and contributed to a number of articles and book chapters including Wounded Souls: The Need for Child Protection Professionals and Faith Leaders to Recognize and Respond to the Spiritual Impact of Child Abuse and forthcoming work Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse. Robert Peters Robert Peters has been with GRACE over 10 years and is currently the Director of Institutional Response, where he oversees all investigations and assessments. He served as an Assistant Prosecuting Attorney and Special Prosecutor in multiple West Virginia jurisdictions, where he specialized in the prosecution of sexual offenses, civil child abuse and neglect, and online child exploitation. He has been published in peer-reviewed journals. Visit netgrace.org Show Transcript SPEAKERSCHRISTINE JONES, PETER SINGER, Julie Roys, ROBERT PETERS Julie Roys  00:05Third party investigations have become increasingly common as churches and Christian institutions continue to be rocked by scandal. But how can you tell if an investigation is truly independent, or just another attempt to cover up? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And our topic today has become a big issue because an organization facing a major scandal just hired a law firm to conduct its third-party investigation. That organization is the International House of Prayer in Kansas City or IHOP. And if you’ve been following this story, you know that IHOP founder, Mike Bickle, has been accused of abusing multiple women and IHOP itself has been accused in mishandling multiple reports of abuse. The Roys Report has published several articles about this scandal. So, if you need some background on the story, I encourage you to go to JULIEROYS.COM, and then click on the investigations tab, and you can find all those stories on IHOP.**   Julie Roys  01:05 But joining me today to discuss these issues is a top American litigator who’s also a Christian with a passion to protect victims. That litigator is Christine Jones, who also serves on the board of The Roys Report. And she has so much expertise in this area. So, I’m very excited to pick her brain on this issue. But also joining me are Pete Singer and Robert Peters of Godly Repose to Abuse in a Christian Environment or GRACE. GRACE has become the gold standard in the Christian survivor community because of the quality of its investigations and its commitment to protect survivor interests. So, I’m very excited about today’s podcast.**   Julie Roys  01:45 But before we dive in, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.**   Julie Roys  02:49 Well again joining me today are Pete Singer and Robert Peters from GRACE which stands for  Godly Repose to Abuse in a Christian Environment  And GRACE is one of the most respected organizations in the Christian survivor community when it comes to independent investigations. And I’m really looking forward to talking with them and getting a behind the scenes look about how these investigations are done. But first, I’d like to introduce Christine Jones. Christine is a top litigator, business executive, and civic leader who has a passion to protect the vulnerable. Until 2012. she served as general counsel for GoDaddy. She also practice law at BS Gilbert, which has been ranked as one of the top law firms in the country. And she recently launched her own firm Newman Jones, a private law firm in Phoenix, Arizona. But her greatest claim to fame by far is serving as a board member for The Roys Report. So, Christine, welcome. I’m so glad you could join us.   CHRISTINE JONES  03:43 Thank you, Julie. So great to be here. And that is by far my best claim to fame for the record.   Julie Roys  03:48 Absolutely. I’m glad that you clarified that. So, Christine, I wanted to talk to you first because there’s been a lot of buzz lately about law firms conducting third party investigations. And this is nothing new, Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. For example, when they did their investigation, they brought in a law firm Miller Martin, there was a law firm Husch Blackwell, that investigated Cedarville University after it hired a known sexual predator that was a couple of years ago. But right now, the International House of Prayer in Kansas City IHOP is facing a major crisis. So IHOP has just announced that they’re going to do a third-party investigation, and they initially hired a law firm Stinson LLP, to conduct this investigation, but there’s been a lot of pushback because there are a lot of people saying that no investigation by a law firm is truly independent. Well, then last Friday evening, IHOP announced that it had decided not to proceed with Stinson. And the reason that IHOP gave was that third parties claiming to represent the victims had communicated a lack of trust in Stinson. So now IHOP is said that it’s hired a local law firm to investigate, but when I asked IHOP to identify the law firm Lenny LaGuardia, a member of IHOP’s executive team replied, and I quote, We will not be publishing her name out of respect for her privacy. When I asked an additional clarifying question about the attorney, LaGuardia responded, IHOP, KC will not be providing any personal information about its attorneys, they are not the story and you should know better, unquote. So, Christine, say hypothetically, that one of the alleged victims of Mike Bickle is your client. Would you advise your client to cooperate with this investigation?   CHRISTINE JONES  05:35 So setting aside the attorney independence for one moment, I would say , all else being equal, if you have some information that’s germane to the discussion, then you know, and you’re not being re traumatized or re victimized and you have the capacity to do it, probably, I would advise them to go ahead and give the information because that is going to be helpful to the outcome, the recommendations or you know, whatever the third party investigator is doing. Now, I have to say that with a caveat, as always, these people may be bound by preexisting contractual relationships that limit what they can say. And in that case, they should probably seek the counsel of an attorney before they do that.   Julie Roys  06:14 So, the fact that the attorney isn’t being named to the public, do you see that as a major problem?   CHRISTINE JONES  06:21 Well, this entire scene has unfolded in such an unusual way. And I have followed a little bit of the back and forth on social media. Stinson, a well-respected law firm being named actually probably was positive, because they do have such a good reputation in the legal community, I don’t know that they had a previous attorney client relationship with IHOP. So that could have at least set a path for them to have independence in this scenario. But here’s the thing, not disclosing who the lawyer is for the sake of protecting the lawyer’s privacy is a very unusual suggestion. And the answer that you got on that inquiry is puzzling to me, because the attorney’s privacy is not the issue here. So, I hate to use the word excuse, Julie. But it does sound to me like they’re just using that as a cover up for their own lack of transparency in this process.   Julie Roys  07:16 Well, the lawyer is the professional, I mean, this is their job, their public, it does seem like a very odd response. development that happened over the weekend is that Ben Anderson, who I guess is a former IHOP staff member, posted on Facebook, the name of the person he believes is the attorney that’s been hired by IHOP. I have tried to confirm it again, went to IHOP. And they will not confirm or deny that this person is the person but the person that he has named publicly on Facebook is friends, apparently with IHOP executive leadership. And apparently, after he posted some social media posts showing this relationship, this attorney deleted her Facebook account and some social media. So, it does seem to be a little fishy, what’s going on. But let’s say that this person is the person but again, we’re not able to determine for sure whether or not that’s true. If somebody is friends with the executive leadership, if perhaps and I guess there’s some indications that she may actually attend IHOP’s church Forerunner, essentially, if that’s the case, correct me if I’m wrong, has it moved from being a third party independent or some semblance of independent investigation? Now we’re really looking at an internal investigation?   CHRISTINE JONES  08:39 Well, let’s talk about the investigation itself before we get to the crux of that question. An attorney could conceivably conduct an independent investigation. Here’s the rub; any attorney client relationship comes with the fiduciary duty that the attorney owes to the client. And look, if this attorney doesn’t want to disclose the fact of the engagement because the attorney feels like in their ethical opinion, that would violate some kind of fiduciary responsibility that they have, that’s their decision. The client certainly can disclose it. But getting back to the independence. The issue here is I was gonna say it’s twofold. It’s actually three-fold. Here, if you have a relationship that’s existing with the executives, it’d be very difficult to claim you have independence on this particular issue. You may even be a percipient witness, you may even be a fact witness, which is a huge red flag for any attorney going into any kind of engagement.   The second thing is if you have this existing attorney client relationship, it’s almost impossible to conduct an independent investigation because you are already required to demonstrate a duty of loyalty to the client, which is the antithesis of independence. It is the exact opposite of independence. No client wants their attorney to be independent of them. That’s why you hire an attorney, right? So, let’s just say it’s a generic person, we don’t know who they are, any lawyer out there, pick a name. If they had that existing relationship, and they have a hope of a relationship in the future, they’re already making money from this client, and they hope to make money from the client in the future, it would be virtually impossible under the ethical rules for them to be considered independent in this investigation.   Now, if it’s a huge law firm, they have hundreds of lawyers in different cities, you know, could one department do the investigation, another department do the advising? Possibly, but that certainly doesn’t seem to be the case here. And it strikes me that IHOP getting rid of Stinson is them backtracking. They’re getting themselves dug into a deeper hole here that they were even in before. They’re not improving their situation, they’re making it worse,   Julie Roys  10:59 Good points that you brought up. I mean, the fiduciary responsibility the lawyer has to its client, and then the possibility of, you know, some sort of relationship in the future, obviously complicating things, and this is why in the very beginning, people were like, Oh, my goodness, they hired a law firm. And what a lot of people were asking for was an organization like GRACE, Godly Repose to Abuse in a Christian Environment, who plays by very different rules. And again, they’re going to be joining us in just a bit and we’ll hear about what they do that is different. But is there ever a situation in which we can say this is truly an independent investigation when you’re being hired by the organization that you’re investigating?   CHRISTINE JONES  10:59 I guess it’s possible. If you had an engagement that had a well-defined set of terms, and your role was only to determine a set of facts. Issue a report that said, here’s the timeline on this date, at this time, in this place, this proper noun did the following. And you just gave the report with no recommendation, no observation, no characterization, no coloring of the facts, you could conceivably be independent. It would always be the client’s decision about whether those findings would be released. It’s a really tricky situation for the finest law firm in the best circumstances. Somebody who has a preexisting relationship, which I understand if the lawyer is who we think it is, is in a really precarious position, claiming that they’re independent, and that their findings are going to be completely objective.   Julie Roys  12:34 So, a little over a week ago, Michael Brown, Dr. Michael Brown spoke at IHOP. And he announced that there was going to be this independent investigation. And Michael is someone who’s very well respected within the charismatic community. And again, IHOP-KC is a charismatic organization. So, I think they were bringing in someone who would be a trusted voice. And so, he argued that the Christian community could trust this investigation, because IHOP had pledged to make these findings public. And again, I know with RZIM, when they were doing the Miller Martin investigation that was the crux right for them was whether or not they were going to make these findings public. I don’t know if that’s still on the table, to be honest, given that things have changed. But let’s assume that it is and IHOP is going to make the findings public. I guess the question is, even when they make the findings public are we talking the complete findings? Is this a redacted finding? Is this the part of the findings you want us to know? I mean, is this really much of an assurance that the findings are going to be public? Or would we still say, you know, as the public looking to get some assurance that this is really been investigated, that we can trust what they’re reporting?   CHRISTINE JONES  13:46 It’s tricky, right? Unless you had actual recordings of conversations, and maybe you had a third-party observer sitting in on those conversations and hearing the results of the investigatory process, it would be almost impossible to say, Now, I don’t want to bad mouth Mr. Brown, you know, reputationally, he’s an upstanding guy. But we’re not judging his statement here. What we’re saying is, lawyers are humans, and humans have bias. And if I’m a victim, I’m a survivor, or I come forward or even I’m a close associate of one or I’ve been part of this community for a long time., and I know somebody who is, I’m still going to have to question, did that human who is a lawyer, conduct this in a way that I can rely on the findings? I will never know because I will never know what the process was that they used. And I already know, particularly if this lawyer is part of the church, but I will already know that they have gone into it with a preset bias that will make it very difficult for them not to filter their conversations and their findings through their preexisting relationship.   Julie Roys  14:59 And one thing I didn’t mention I mean, which you’ve hinted at, I mean, there is an engagement and a letter of engagement that’s signed between the client and the law firm. Is it ever okay to release that letter of engagement? And also, I know, for example, the Southern Baptist Convention when the executive committee was being investigated, they actually waived under a great deal of pressure, their attorney client privilege. Is that something that we could expect or should expect in a situation like this?   CHRISTINE JONES  15:30 That’s a really interesting question. And here, it’s probably not going to be the same outcome as what we saw on the SBC, which as you said was exceptional. The client owns that privilege, the client gets to pick whether the privilege is waived. Here, the motivation for IHOP to give more information is probably well, I mean, it’s going to be tricky for them, right? Because anything that they find that’s derogatory, they’re gonna be less inclined to disclose it, right? We don’t have the power, sort of as third parties who don’t have privity to this contract, to require them to disclose it. Could there be some community pressure, either by survivors or by members of the community, like what we saw in the SBC? I suppose it’s possible. But even let’s say that they produce the engagement letter. Let’s say they sent it to you, and you published it. Let’s say they gave us the entire report, right? It’s still gonna come with the names of minors redacted, it’s probably still going to have some information that’s viewed as relevant to a criminal investigation or, you know, somehow protective of victims' rights redacted. So, will you ever see the entirety of it? You know, as I sit here today, I would say probably not.   Julie Roys  16:46 Yeah. Well, we will see as the story continues to unfold, but Christine really appreciate you being willing to come on and lend your expertise, which has just been such a blessing to The Roys. Report, and to our listeners today, as well. So, thank you so much.   CHRISTINE JONES  17:01 My pleasure. And can we say one last thing in conclusion? Just in case anybody from IHOP-KC is listening to this podcast? IHOP, hire an independent third party to do this investigation. Let them find out what the facts were and hire a separate counsel to give you the advice on what to do with it. Why cloud the perception of what’s going on here? If you want to clean your house, clean your house and do it well.   Julie Roys  17:25 Thank you. And I would second those thoughts. Appreciate that so much.   CHRISTINE JONES  17:29 Thanks for having me, Julie.   Julie Roys  17:31 Absolutely. Well, now, Peter Singer, and Robert Peters are going to join us from GRACE. And Pete is the executive director of GRACE and a licensed clinical social worker with about 30 years of experience. He also has a master’s degree in social work and a certificate in trauma effective leadership from the University of Minnesota. So, Pete, such a privilege to have you join me. Thanks so much.   PETER SINGER  17:55 Thank you. It’s great to be here. Really appreciate the chance, Julie.   Julie Roys  17:59 And also joining me is Robert Peters, who oversees all investigations and assessments at GRACE. He formerly served as an assistant prosecuting attorney and special prosecutor in several jurisdictions in West Virginia. And in that capacity, he specialized in the prosecution of sexual offences, child abuse and neglect, and online child exploitation. So, Robert, so glad to have you on The Roys Report podcast. And I think, as I mentioned earlier, that I think this is the first time we’ve had two lawyers on our podcast. So welcome.   ROBERT PETERS  18:32 Great to be here. And I hope we don’t break any podcast length records unless you’re going for that. In which case, you’re welcome.   Julie Roys  18:39 So, GRACE has become, and I mentioned this before, sort of the gold standard when it comes to investigations. And that’s quite a badge of honor for you guys. And I know, it’s not just the investigations, but also the manner in which you treat victims. And that has given you a distinction among the survivor community. Right now, there is a petition circulating and I know you don’t want to comment on this, but there is a petition circulating urging IHOP hire GRACE to conduct its investigation because of, I think, the respect that you have within this community. What is unique with what you do? And let’s start with your expertise, because you focus specifically on investigations involving churches and Christian organizations. Pete talk about that, and how that perspective is perhaps different from a lot of organizations like a law firm, but even some other organizations that do similar type investigations, but not in this kind of space, but more normally in more of a corporate space.   PETER SINGER  19:42 Sure, really, really important things that come into play here. A big piece of that is an understanding the criteria that we’re looking at, isn’t just what does the law say? Yes, that is a very, very significant piece of criteria. But beyond that, we’re also looking at what is God saying? And at times, it can be very difficult for a law firm or other private investigative agency as part of the investigation to also do a theological review. And to say, Okay, let’s look at what happened here. And now we’ll examine that in light of Scripture. And one of the things that I think is unique about the way that GRACE does an investigation, is that GRACE brings in an incredible, incredible experience. Our investigators come from a background similar to what Robert is bringing in his background or from extensive law enforcement experience. They’re also bringing in that theological experience. They’re also bringing the understanding and the familiarity with church culture, church governance. For example, when we do a report associated with, let’s just say, a Presbyterian Church that might be governed by the Book of Church Order, we’ve got people on staff who are experts in the Book of Church Order, and we can specifically craft recommendations that fit within the Book of Church Order. And so being able to pull in that experience, as well as an understanding of what Scripture says about this. Because scripture is not silent on this; Scripture speaks so often of the Scripture sayings., In First Samuel, that Hophni and Phinehas, the sons of Eli who was the high priest of the tent. Hasni and Phineas were acting as priests in Israel. Scripture calls them worthless men. Why? Because they used their position of spiritual authority to have sex with people. Scripture is calling out clergy sexual abuse.**   PETER SINGER  21:53 And then we’ll fast forward to the New Testament, and we’ve got Jesus calling out against child sexual abuse, anything that would harm a child, against elder abuse, against financial exploitation, against spiritual abuse. So a GRACE team brings in both that incredible legal background, similar to what Robert has, or many of the people who have been in law enforcement on our team have. But then an ability to blend that with what does scripture say? And what do we know about trauma? We have many, many published articles from people at GRACE, whether they’re our investigators, people on our leadership team, people on our board of directors that help explain the very nature of trauma and trauma informed practice. And we’ve got an article coming out at the end of the year that will be published in Currents in Theology and Mission, theology journal, that will be taking six key principles of trauma informed practice and saying, what does that look like when it’s applied in a church? When GRACE or an organization like GRACE comes in to do an investigation, that is all automatically a part of the analysis of this situation. And for an organization that does not have that deep embedded background within the Christian culture within churches, how are they going to be able to bring in and analyze the situation in light of Scripture? How are they going to be able to blend trauma informed practice and Scripture? And how are they going to bring those excellent qualifications like Robert has and the members of his team,   Julie Roys  23:44 Great points that you’re making, and I can relate as a journalist who works exclusively in the Christian space. And I’ve also worked in secular newsrooms. And it’s interesting when I did work in secular newsrooms, how much they misunderstood the language, or they misunderstood the culture, and they just weren’t able to report properly. And frankly, Christians didn’t trust them, because they didn’t know, they didn’t understand, they would misinterpret things. For me as a reporter, it’s hugely important that I understand spiritual abuse, for example, to understand how these communities work, as far as you know, a lot of these folks, it’s not like a work environment where you go, and then you come home, and you have your family and your community. This is their family and their community often. There is no leaving in many ways, and it encompasses all areas of their life. And so, I do think that having we call it a beat in journalism, I mean, you know, your beat, you know, really, really well and you understand the culture, you understand the people. I think the same thing sounds like what you’re saying is what GRACE is doing with investigations in this space.**   Julie Roys  24:48 Let’s talk about the independence and objectivity because Christine was talking a lot about that. You know, law firms obviously have a fiduciary responsibility to their clients, but you’re hired by clients. And again, I’m looking at this as a journalist. I can’t even have you buy me lunch; I can take no money from you. I’ve been offered numerous times, hey, we’ll fly you out to interview or flight. And I’m like, well, if I’m going to do the story, you can’t fly me out, you can’t do anything for me, and you can’t put me up, I need to come on my own dime, which is hard to say, because we have such a limited budget and stories we’d like to cover, right? But for us, if we take money, we’re not objective, right? I mean, that’s how strict it is for journalists in this space. So, I mean, talk about that, because you’re obviously being hired by organizations that you do investigations on,. How does that not make you beholden to your client?   ROBERT PETERS  25:38 The two-word answer would be structural independence. And that’s really critical of the contractual phase,. You know, in the discussions that we have with churches, where those discussions either prove to be fruitful or not, that’s the crucible. That’s where these things tend to either solidify, either grudgingly or smoothly to an independent investigation, or where they tend to flame out spectacularly. So, it really varies. And what I mean by structural independence, you know, and these are good questions that the perhaps survivors should be asking, before participating in any investigation, frankly, not just those that are undertaken by law firms. But yeah, what sort of is going into that? Is there some sort of those fiduciary pieces is there an attorney client relationship. We are not a law firm; we don’t provide legal services. So, we’re not coming into some of the same ethical obligations. I am an attorney, but I don’t function as an attorney within GRACE, or anything related to GRACE. So, there’s that piece of it, where we’re just sort of structurally ethically different and legally different.**   ROBERT PETERS  26:40 But then there’s contractual independence and the nature of the contract itself. No one sets a limit on the amount of interviews that we have. We may have estimates based on the facts that are presented to us by churches we’re having discussions with, but we’re very clear and the contracts provide for it. That’s ultimately an investigative determination of even the number of interviews. And so that becomes complicated right financially. Because certainly, we do need to pay our employees and contractors for the work, we want to continue equipping the church and equipping survivors, that takes resources. But we also want to make sure that we have maximum discretion in order that we don’t have those sort of perverse incentives and threads, bold and leveraged in ways that are unproductive to justice, that are unproductive to transparency. So, things like disclaiming those pieces expressly, but also ensuring that we have that type of discretion. Additionally, also at the risk of being inflammatory, GRACE is not a mud flap. And there are entities that sometimes unfortunately operate as mud flaps, meaning they direct the dirt into particular locations. They put emphasis of culpability on particular locations. And isn’t it interesting how that tends to align with the priorities of the individuals that are paying the bills? GRACE is not a mud flap. And so, when it comes to the other report drafting process itself, we do accept feedback, both from designated members of church leadership, as well as reporting victims. They always receive a copy of this report during the embargo period where we’re accepting feedback,. That feedback is limited to a few specific areas, that feedback is limited to is there something that’s factually inaccurate, not something I don’t like, we do get that feedback. But the feedback we’ll consider is limited to something that’s factually inaccurate, something that’s inconsistent with the church theology or polity, because we want to be culturally informed as we’re conducting these investigations. And then is there something that’s overly Identifying in the reporting victim? Those are things that we want flagged in the event that this report is elected to be made public, either by the church or by reporting victims who also have discretion to make public. There’s sort of those structural pieces where the church is no longer in control of that piece. And there have been cases where we simply don’t get contracts because some cultures that unfortunately, don’t have that healthy view of power dynamics, and aren’t really understanding the importance of engaging in that hard work. And it is hard work. And it is vulnerable work. Sometimes churches don’t see that necessity or correctly see the risks of that approach, and ultimately get the client to move forward with this. On the other hand, some do bravely step into that. And it is a difficult process, but it’s ultimately a necessary process for survivors, and ultimately, for the well-being of the church.   Julie Roys  29:20 Let’s talk about the report because this is a really, really key part of GRACE. So often the report as for example, we mentioned Ravi Zacharias International Ministries when they employed Miller, Martin, there were a couple things. And one is the scope of the investigation, which initially was very narrow, but because there was a lot of media pressure, and I know we published a story the minute I got some documentation saying this was limited, very narrowly we published on it, and then it broadened right? And that’s the beauty of the pressure of the publicity. But also with Miller Martin, that report was given to RZIM and there, I know from talking to people, there was a battle as to whether or not to release that to the public. And ultimately, it was the board’s decision. But I know there was so much public pressure and that was released publicly the full report, which was I mean, like a bomb went off, right? I mean, that was huge. So, let’s talk about that with what you’re doing. There have been reports that you’ve done that haven’t been released to the public. But what you do is unique in that you don’t just release it to the organizations that’s paying you. But you release it to somebody else, as well. Talk about that.   PETER SINGER  30:38 It’s absolutely essential that that happens. It can’t just be the church, or ministry, that was the Sikh of the abuse. That can’t be the only person that holds the power of the report. Because that report is power. We specifically have in the contract that we do not assign the copyright of the report to anybody, which means that nobody has the ability to say you can’t publish that. And then often, there is a recommendation something to the effect of church leadership work with survivors to figure out the best way to distribute this.**   PETER SINGER  31:21 Now, GRACE used to have a relatively standard recommendation of distribute this. But then, several years ago, what happened was a survivor said, What are you doing? Now, everybody will know who I am. I, the survivor did not want that distributed. And so, once that situation occurred, we changed how we address that. So that we tell the church generally, work with the survivor to figure out how to distribute this because sometimes survivors don’t want it more public. And then it’s that balance between empowerment and safety.   Julie Roys  32:04 Yeah. And that that always is the attention; it’s definitely attention in what I do as well. You want to always have a survivor centered approach in the way that you move forward with these things. And here’s something that, again, would be what we’ve heard recently, and we reported recently with IHOP, is people coming forward reporting, and then being traumatized when they report. Being interrogated, being gaslit, being grilled from very much an, aren’t you lying? kind of perspective or doubting what they’re saying, very skeptical. How do you keep from being re traumatized as somebody who comes forward? And what assurance do they have that they’re not going to be re traumatized? Because a lot of these people have been burned multiple times. And do you see what you do as uniquely protective of survivors?   ROBERT PETERS  32:58 Yeah, that’s such a critical question, Julie, and there’s a lot of different layers, I think, to what it means to provide a safe environment for witnesses, particularly survivors of abuse. I think it’s worth noting, tragically, how rare it is, for professionals in the field of sexual abuse investigation itself, let alone what I would consider ancillary professionals, which is most attorneys to engage well in this context in a way that does not inflict further harm. And let me double down on that a little bit. So prior to coming on board at GRACE, I spent the past four years at Zero Abuse Project before that at the National White Collar Crime Center, training law enforcement and child abuse prosecutors in all 50 states. Regrettably, some of them are virtual, like Hawaii. I’m not bitter about that at all. But pandemics were great. But one thing I learned, first of all, there are some incredibly gifted professionals that work in these spaces. And so, I don’t want my next statement to undercut the fact that they’re absolute heroes working for very low wages, extremely hard work, giving themselves, expanding themselves sacrificially. So, this is not a statement about those individuals. But the other reality is that many, possibly most individuals in law enforcement and prosecution are not competent to handle these cases. That’s just the reality. I’m talking criminal context. They’re simply not. There is a high level of specialization, there’s a high level of training, a high level of skill in achieving competence, let alone excellence in conducting sexual assault and child abuse investigations. And that’s true in the civil context as well. There are so many moving parts when it comes to the complexity of trauma. When it comes to how do you question, when it comes to accurately identifying grooming behaviors, when it comes to even your posture with witnesses? How do you build rapport? There’s just a whole host of pieces. But the reality is that specialization breeds excellence. We know that’s true in medicine. We know that’s true in every other context. It's true in investigations as well. If you’re not constantly building up those skills, staying current on literature, staying current on tactics, you’re not going to be competent, you’re going to inflict further harm. And simply having a PhD or a JD doesn’t make that any less likely; it might make it more likely. And so, it really just depends. And again, once again, I want to be very clear, there are attorneys that do a phenomenal job, that I call for advice on a frequent basis when it comes to conducting investigations. But I think it takes a lot of caution and humility to say, simply by virtue of being a law firm, there’s a qualification here. There needs to be some careful scrutiny of what those qualifications are, what type of credentials do the individuals involved have when it comes to forensic interviewing? What are the relevant publications, right? What protocol of forensic interviewing do they utilize? There’s a great deal of expertise that comes into not inflicting further harm in these interviews. I think there’s also a posture of intentional integration of trauma informed principles is that's very much in the DNA that started with Bob Tchividjian. And now it has grown with Pete Singer, what he’s brought from the mental health care field, in terms of how we interact with all witnesses, but especially survivors of abuse.   PETER SINGER  36:08 As we head into these interviews, those trauma informed principles that Robert talked about, these are things, one that we’re going to evaluate the church on. And two that we’re going to evaluate ourselves on. How are we doing this in the continuance of an investigation? So, these are the principles that need to govern our interview. The first and foremost is safety, physical safety, psychological safety, spiritual safety. The second, as I mentioned before, trust worthiness and transparency. The third, peer support. As long as they’re not another witness, a witness or a victim can bring a support person with them. As long as they’re not somebody else that would be a witness, bring that person with you to provide support. The fourth principle is collaboration and mutuality. That means work together with the person that’s been harmed, work together within our own group or among those who are specialists here at GRACE, and work together outside of our group. So, for example, when we’re doing an international investigation, we bring in cultural consultants to help us understand that culture so that we don’t make cultural flubs. Then empowerment, voice, and choice. How are we empowering those who have been harmed? How are we giving their voice a platform so that it can be heard? And then the final principle is humility, in the face of historical, cultural and gender factors, which simply cannot be separated from the trauma.   Julie Roys  37:52 So good. You have done an investigation for IHOP in the past, and that investigation, as I understand, never became public. Is there anything that you can say to shed light on that investigation, or how that might impact your moving forward, if you didn’t move forward with IHOP?   PETER SINGER  38:16 Sure, what I can say is that it was a completed investigation. What I can say is that consistent with our practice, the church was given a copy of the report, and anyone identified as a reported victim was given a copy of the report. I can also say that nobody was told not to distribute the report by GRACE. I can say that there have been some situations where GRACE has done multiple investigations for organizations. So having completed an investigation previously, does not prohibit GRACE, as long as we don’t feel that there’s a conflict of interest. And we need to check to make sure that there isn’t a conflict of interest. And as long as that conflict of interest is not there, then we can do an additional investigation with organizations just generally speaking.   Julie Roys  39:04 Lastly, and you’ve touched on analysis already. And this is something where I will say I’ve read a lot of these reports. GRACE’s analysis is usually something that I feel is insightful and is helpful. And because you guys get the culture and you get how abuse work, you get how cover ups work, you get all that stuff. I found those extremely helpful. At the same time, I have been horrified by some reports that I’ve seen. For example, there was a Guidepost Solutions report that was done on the Bryan Loritts’ investigation. I wrote about it so people can go and see it, but it was shocking to me because the only person that had this phone that had the evidence of wrongdoing was Bryan Loritts. He said things happened that he gave it to people. Nobody ever verified that they ever got the phone from him. He said he instructed people to report this to the police. We know that the police got no report whatsoever. And yet, the thing that was reported at the end of that was that Bryan Loritts essentially, has been found not guilty by this, you know. There’s no reason to think he was involved. It was shocking to me because the whole thing was pretty decent. I mean, really, they didn’t find out anything that I hadn’t found out prior, you know, because I had investigated this. But it was pretty decent as you went through. And if you understand the different people and what their objectives might be, and telling the truth or not telling the truth, but the analysis was just shocking to me. And there was so much inside of me that would have appreciated it, because when it was reported, people, you know, reporters can be really lazy. So they can just like look at the analysis at the end, and then just take that and not read the report. Because why bother, right? Just cut to the chase, read that, and then move on to your next story. And that’s what I suspect a lot of them did. And the problem is the truth didn’t get out there. So as a reporter, we keep like this really firm line between any analysis or opinion, and any news. So, we report all the facts here in the news story, we try not to let any editorial comment come in, and then we’ll report separately, okay, here’s what we think about it, if we do that. Or sometimes we’ll interview several experts, and then we’ll quote them in the story to give some perspective if we feel like the reader needs that. So, speak to that, because, again, I’ve seen it work. And I’ve seen it be absolutely abysmal, when there’s analysis in there, and there’s a part of me as a reporter that just wished the analysis would be separate,   PETER SINGER  41:38 You bring up a really great point, Julie, and I’m not going to speak to any particular other organization that is out there doing investigation. But just off the top of my head, I can think of three or four reports that I’ve read within the last year where I look at them, and their findings of fact make sense to me. And I get done reading the findings of fact thinking, wow, this is great. They actually revealed what happened. And then I get to their analysis. And I’m like, how did they get that analysis? That analysis is totally contrary to the facts! What happened?**   PETER SINGER  42:15 And so often, that can happen because that organization is being a mud flap, because their job is to direct the dirt. And again, I’m not calling out any specific organizations. And sometimes you’re just left wondering, and I think that you highlight just the importance, you can’t just go and read the analysis, you can’t just go and read the conclusions, you have to read the whole thing. And if you read the whole thing, you will see, A does not equal B. What’s going on here? And that is one of the red flags that you may have when you’re reading a report to know if that report was done in good faith. Because if you’re reading that nobody from whatever group participated or agreed to be interviewed, and then you’re reading the analysis that says this organization was fully engaged in the investigation, you got two opposite things. One is a factual statement but negates the analysis. With the GRACE report, generally speaking, there’s going to be some variability, we lay out those factual findings. There are some pieces of analysis in there. But those factual findings are laid out, and then we do an analysis. And sometimes there’s analysis that’s brought in with each piece of the findings so that there can be understanding as we go along. But that’s one of the key pieces that we do. And one of Robert’s biggest responsibilities is to make sure that this analysis actually is consistent with the factual findings. And not in contradiction to it.   ROBERT PETERS  43:55 Yeah, adding to that getting the what right is inconsequential, if you screw up the so what,. And so, I think that’s one critique I would have just more broadly over even law firm involved investigations, if you don’t have the church culture piece, if you don’t have the scriptural piece, you’re gonna mess up the so what or at a minimum, you’re going to miss an opportunity to address the so what piece of it. It’s so interesting how often we’re moving from, you have entities that are theoretically sola scriptura, but not in this context. Theoretically, Scripture is sufficient for all things, but not here. And so why is the disconnect, right? Why are we not leaning on Scripture to guide our response? And I think there’s some reasons for that, that are not always always very pleasant. So, I think getting that so what use is critical. **   ROBERT PETERS  44:39 I don’t know, Julie, if you’re familiar with I’m sure you’re familiar with the name Victor Vieth. But he wrote a really influential article years ago called Unto the Third Generation, and he posits a very optimistic and I think still realistic and grounded view that child abuse really can be meaningfully reduced to levels that are fractions of what they are now. I think that’s absolutely the case, I think we can lose sight of that just in the work that we do. Right? You’re being exposed to all this stuff. And how does this you know; how does this stuff ever end.**   ROBERT PETERS  45:11 One of the ways it ends is by not just getting a recitation of the facts. And then even if you don’t botch the analysis, stop there. The facts are important. The facts matter, they need light, and survivors deserve that. What also needs to happen is the so what. Okay, given these facts, what are the systems that allowed this to happen? As James Clear states, we don’t rise to the level of our goals, we fall to the level of our systems. What systemically is wrong here? And then by implication, how do we fix it? Because we don’t need to live in a world where every day, there’s a new, terrible podcast topic, probably several that you have to choose from. Right? We don’t have to live in a world where every day there’s more hearts being broken, and more individuals being shown an image of Christ and image of God does anything but what Scripture portrays. This is unnecessary. There is a way forward, and that way forward is the path of Christ. And it’s taking the facts seriously, yes. But it’s also doing the hard work of what do we do now, or the work of culture change. You don’t get there without the Bible. You don’t get there without being sensitive to survivors and being trauma informed. And that’s what survivors deserve in these investigations, regardless of who was conducting them.   Julie Roys  46:22 So, so good.   PETER SINGER  46:24 This is where the words of James come in: to the one who knows to do good, and doesn’t do it, it is sin. When you get done reading the report, there should be a path that’s laid out. Now you know, the path. And if you don’t do it, you are in essence taking God’s name in vain to continue sinning, to continue causing harm, to continue misrepresenting God.   Julie Roys  46:52 Amen. So, so good. And I so appreciate what you guys do. I know that these podcasts even though we keep our news stories and our investigations, we have to as journalists, just report them straight as we can. But I’ve heard from so many people, it’s the podcast where this is our analysis piece, right? This is where we get to speak into these things. And they’ve been so so instructive to our listeners. I hear it all the time. We just had the RESTORE conference, and so many people came up to me and said, thank you so much for the podcast, because voices like yours get amplified, and they get to hear them and get to be able to process the information that they’re hearing. So, so grateful for both of you, Pete, and Robert and Christine, who was with us earlier,. Thank you so much for being a part of this podcast.   PETER SINGER  47:42 Thank you for the opportunity. It was great.   ROBERT PETERS  47:44 Thank you.   Julie Roys  47:45 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast, would you please consider supporting what we do financially? As I’ve said before, we don’t have any big donors or advertisers. We have you the people who care about exposing abuse and corruption in the church so she can be restored. And this month when you give a gift of $30 or more to the Roys report, we’ll send you a copy of Scot McKnight and Laura Behringer, his book pivot the priorities practices and powers that can transform your church into a Tov culture. So, to donate and to get your copy of pivot just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to the noise report on Apple podcast. Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript How can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? In this podcast, theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer, join me to discuss their latest book, Pivot, a sequel to their earlier best-selling book, A Church Called Tov. While their first book explained the characteristics of a “tov,” or good, culture, Pivot tackles the next challenge—transforming ingrained toxic cultures into tov ones. As Scot and Laura discuss, transformation can be a grueling and painful process. And their research shows transformation takes an average of seven years! But it is possible. And cultures led by narcissist leaders that create consumers can transform into ones led by servant-leaders that make disciples.  In their characteristic relatable and warm style, Scot and Laura explain the practical steps required to do that. Specifically, they discuss the priorities, practices, and powers necessary to pivot, or transform, toxic cultures. And they give real-life examples of churches that have undergone this transformation and lived to tell about it! Scot and Laura draw from their own experiences in churches, conversations with leaders seeing transformation happen, and a deep well of research to provide actionable insights for churches and ministries. Guests Scot McKnight Scot McKnight is a professor of New Testament and has been teaching for more than four decades. His specialty is in the fields of Gospels and Jesus studies, but his passions are in the intersection of New Testament in its context as it speaks to the church today. Along with his daughter, Laura Barringer, they have published A Church Called Tov and a follow-up book, Pivot, which discusses what churches can do to help transform themselves from toxic cultures into tov (goodness) cultures. Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles.  Show Transcript SPEAKERS SCOT McKNIGHT, LAURA BARRINGER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:00 So how can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And joining me today are theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer. They're the authors of the bestselling book A Church Called TOV. TOV is the Hebrew word for good or goodness. And the book explained how to create a church culture that's truly good–one that resists abuse promotes healing and spiritual growth. But what if your church or Christian workplace already has an ingrained toxic culture? Well, that's what Scot and Laura's new book PIVOT is all about. It explains the priorities, practices and powers that can help you pivot or transform your toxic culture into a TOV culture. But it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but it is God honoring and it is possible. So I'm very excited to delve into this topic was gotten Laura But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JudsonU.edu. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.com.  Well again, joining me is New Testament scholar Scot McKnight, who has authored more than 50 books. He's currently professor of New Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lisle, Illinois. And he's an ordained Anglican and maintains a blog with Christianity today called Jesus Creed. So Scott, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you join me. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:25 Thanks, Julie. Good to be with you again. JULIE ROYS  02:27 Yeah, second time. So I always like when I have a repeat guest. It means it must have gone okay the first time. SCOT McKNIGHT  02:33 I used to be with you sometimes on the radio, in the old days. JULIE ROYS  02:37 On Moody. Yeah. Yes, old days. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is going to be fun. I love the book. And Laura, thank you also for joining me again, Scot's daughter Laura Barringer, who's co authored Scott's last two books, A Church Called TOV and PIVOT. Laura also is a children's ministry curriculum writer for Grow Kids. And her day job is teaching kindergarteners in suburban Chicago and Laura, I know you've had a full day teaching them today. So thank you so much for for joining us and for being willing to come on. LAURA BARRINGER  03:09 Yeah, thank you for having me again. It's nice to be with you guys. JULIE ROYS  03:13 And you were just with us at RESTORE, and did a phenomenal job. And we've been rolling out the videos on that and yours will be rolling out in the next few weeks. But that was just delightful to have you. So thank you for joining us at that. LAURA BARRINGER  03:27 I had a great time. It was such an honor to speak at the event and meet so many of the people that I've interacted with online over the last few times. I was just blown away by how special. I was anticipating it. But I was blown away by how special that was to see actual faces. And I came away just realizing this is so much more. It's not just a conference. It's so much more than that. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:51 That's what we experienced the year before. LAURA BARRINGER  03:53 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:54 Same thing like these are the people. LAURA BARRINGER  03:56 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT  03:56 These are the people. Yeah, that's good. JULIE ROYS  03:58 Yeah, I think you called it a restorative community. LAURA BARRINGER  03:58 That's what it is. JULIE ROYS  04:00 I love that. I was like, yes, that's exactly what RESTORE is. And Scot, you joined us last year for the RESTORE conference. And your video is up on our YouTube site as well. And I believe it was on How To Be TOV, Not Toxic. So a lot of that stuff that we're talking about today, although today, we're talking more about your second book, which is kind of making that pivot when you realize you already are toxic, right? And you've got this culture ingrained that's not so good. And Laura, I loved in the book where you said, at one point you're like, I teach kindergarteners and now I'm doing all these interviews on how to make a church culture TOV and how to make it good and you're like, how did I get here? And then a pastor said to you, “you know what you nurture little people all day you children all day long, and that skill, even though it's often not valued by pastors is probably more appropriate than a lot of them realize.” And I just I love that. And I'm sure you're finding that as you're speaking to people. LAURA BARRINGER  05:05 Yeah, that was very meaningful interview that was Jared McKenna. He has a podcast that he had invited me on. And for whatever reason, my dad wasn't there. I don't know, usually, they want my dad, and then I tag along. And so initially, those interviews could feel really uncomfortable, because every now and then I would stop and think, do these people, you know, they'd asked me about, like, the church abuse crisis. And I'd think, “do these people not realize that I was making kindergarten ready for school confetti earlier today?” How have I landed in this spot? But that was a very encouraging conversation for me when Jared said, you know, you have some of the qualities as a teacher that we want to see in our pastors. And I stopped, I thought, I suppose that's what we do all day long as teachers we nurture and encourage and shepherd. So yeah, that meant a lot to me, as you read in the book, JULIE ROYS  06:05 And Scott, you teach at a seminary, but a lot of seminaries aren't teaching about this kind of stuff. Like you're you learn a lot of Bible knowledge. But as far as how to create cultures and how to nurture goodness within churches? I mean, are we teaching this in enough seminaries? Or are we maybe a little heavy on the head knowledge and not enough on the cultivating of the heart? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:30 The answer to that is no. There are really no seminaries that are focused on spiritual formation or character development, LAURA BARRINGER  06:41 Really? SCOT McKNIGHT  06:42 None. The curriculum for all the courses is Bible theology, church history, and skill development. And skill development is what is measured, as a general rule for what constitutes a good pastor. In other words, they can preach they can lead, you know, we talked about leadership, I don't, but the evangelical world does. And we read books and from the business world, and we read, what is it, Jack Welch? We read all these people. And these are the people that are formational, for people's perception of what is success, and what constitutes a pastor. One of the curricular changes that took place in seminaries about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, was to bring spiritual formation into every class, rather than located in one class, a class on spiritual formation. And so we do it that way. But Julie, I think character formation for church leaders, is caught more than taught, it's embodied more than it's instructed. And it requires time with someone who has that kind of character. So if you can be an assistant, in a church with Mr. Rogers, for five years, you'll never be the same. If you are in a church with, we won't name any names don't need to in this context, for five years, you will be harmed in character formation. JULIE ROYS  08:12 And that's what's so sad is that so much of my reporting is on churches where that's happening, where you have pastors who can preach the Bible, and can teach it–sometimes with really good doctrine–and yet, the life does not match the teaching. And so that is so much of the problem. So I'm so glad that you that both of you have done these two books, which go hand in hand, and I loved your first book, A Church Called TOV, and I love this book PIVOT, because it's, it really is sort of the sequel, and I think helps an awful lot. And we've been using this phrase church culture. Scott, let me just start there. What is a church culture? Because this is something we often don't think about yet we often swim in it, and we're shaped by it. But what is it exactly? And how is it formed? SCOT McKNIGHT  09:00 A culture is a living agent that conforms people, whether they understand it, or not, unconsciously, unintentionally, to become people who fit in that culture. Now, that's the impact understanding, but culture is a living agent. That is the result of people decisions, policies, over time, that result in a given set of assumptions that are mostly invisible, that shape what's going on in a given institution, or church, whatever, without even being aware of it. That's the culture. JULIE ROYS  09:44 And so often what we see I know when I report on a church or a leader, and in several circumstances that's led to the leader being removed, and then they bring in a new leader, and you think, oh, everything's different now. SCOT McKNIGHT  09:58 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  09:59 But it's really not. Right? Because  Nothing. You've got a culture that's ingrained, you have people that have been formed by this culture. And they don't know any different than how to run a toxic church, because that's how they've been discipled. That's the culture that they're familiar with. So you use this metaphor in your book of a peach tree, to help us understand culture. So Laura, let me throw that to you. What is this peach tree metaphor? And how does it apply to helping us understand the church? SCOT McKNIGHT  10:01 Nothing, LAURA BARRINGER  10:30 So the peach tree metaphor, it's, it is a cute, if you will metaphor, but it actually is research based and we based it on the research of Edgar Schein, he's one of the, to my knowledge, most important researchers on organizational culture. And also to our knowledge, we were not able to find research or books on church culture or Christian organization culture. So we took what we learned from him and adapted it and made our model a peach tree, mostly because I have a peach tree in my backyard. Mark, and I planted it when we moved in our home about 10 years ago. And it ended up being perfect for this metaphor, because it's very unhealthy. We've never even eaten one peach off the tree. So like, Oh, that's perfect, because it was a very small because I called her tree. But at any rate, so we talked about peaches as the visible elements of your culture. And it's what people see and experience when they walk in the door. So they might feel like, Oh, those graders were friendly, or who's singing on stage or, when the Anglican tradition, they pass the peace, that's part of the culture. And when they leave, they can probably explain what they felt, what they saw. So what we have learned, and again, this is research based, is that what is underneath the soil is what feeds the living elements of the tree. And most of that is like what my dad was saying that you can't see it, you don't even know it's there. And like our peach tree in our backyard, the fact that it's not growing peaches is not the problem. The problem is that is probably the soil or that we're not caring for the tree, we're supposed to add nutrients every year–we never do. So that's how we develop the model is that the soil and what's underneath the soil, what goes into the roots is what feeds the culture of your organization. And so you really need to look at, we learned, is “what's feeding the soil?” If the tree is being fed by the fruits of the Spirit are by spiritual formation practices, the culture is likely healthy and thriving. If it's being fed by ambition, or power abuse, then the culture is going to be toxic. And so you might get some healthy, like looking peaches, but underneath that's very sick. SCOT McKNIGHT  13:04 This is a good question. And Laura's got a good answer there. But I was in a conversation the other day was a seminary professor who talked about the last three presidents of that institution. And the seminary professor said they were all narcissists. And I said, I think we have to look at why narcissists rose to the top in that organization. There's a culture that gives rise to “that's the kind of person that seems to fit the job description.” Why is that the case? JULIE ROYS  13:39 And that is an important point to make. Because I think so often we do point at the narcissist, and oh, this horrible person that was there and did such horrible things. And we don't look at what's our responsibility for putting that person in and for following that person for not noticing the characteristics that we should have. And you've named some of the toxins that go into these soils of these toxic churches. You give, and I love this because you don't hear the stories very often. And I'd love to report on a lot more of them. I wish there were a lot to report on. But it's of a church that discovers that it's toxic, and goes through this transformation process. And one of them that you talked about is is Oak Hills church in Folsom, California. Explain why Oak Hills felt like it had to transform and then how it began to do so. LAURA BARRINGER  14:33 Yeah, this is one of my favorite parts of our work on PIVOT, I think. I had never heard of Oak Hills. Just one day a book arrived on my doorstep, sent by Scot McKnight. And he said you need to read about this, and then write about it as a case study for PIVOT. It's such a beautiful story, but essentially, the pastors Mike Lueken and Ken Carlson founded a church in California called Oak Hills. And they had come out here to Willow Creek to learn as much as they could about doing church. And they don't criticize Willow at all. They said, in fact, everything that we tried worked. Their attendance exploded, they became a mega church. But they started to feel I would describe it just like an unease like in their soul. And they felt like the exact quote is so striking. It says, “the way that we were doing church was actually working against the invitation of Christ to experience his transformation.” And they had been reading Eugene Peterson, and Dallas Willard and more. And they felt like our attractional model is working against transformation. And so they took the whole church through a very tumultuous process. Their attendance declined, like it was cut in half or more. But they ended up transforming their church from an attractional model to a spiritual formation model. They said the people in the church had become consumers. So like, they would sit there and want a really good show. And then the next week, they would come back and they wanted an even better show. And they said, it felt like we were feeding a monster, and they were drained. They were worn out. And they just felt that stirring in the spirit that they had to transform it. JULIE ROYS  16:28 Yeah, somebody asked me once, whether I thought a mega church could ever be healthy. And my answer was, perhaps, but it just seems to me that all the pressures are in the wrong direction. And it's awful hard to withstand the pressures that keep pushing you in that direction. And I'm curious, Scot, have you ever seen a mega church that, really, you're seeing a real emphasis on spiritual formation? And it seems really healthy? SCOT McKNIGHT  16:59 This is a really interesting question because it feeds into what we researched in this book. And Edgar Schein, I've seen a lot of them, because I've only been there for a day or two. Okay, so this is what they are masters of, is the weekend service is extremely impressive and they have talented, charismatic, winsome, affable people that welcome you at the airport, take you to nice hotels, feed you nice meals, provide a green room in the back with all the amenities that you need, and a wonderful platform where they stand up and even clap for you. Great music. So here's the point, I do believe there are mega churches that are healthy. But the only way to know this is to have someone investigate them, not for the purpose of exposing anything, but for the sole purpose of finding out what's really going on. And it would take three to six months of someone who's skilled at knowing how to find a culture. This is what Edgar Schein does, he'll go to places like let's just say IBM, and work there for nine months. And it takes that long to find what is actually in the soil feeding the place. So there's no megachurch pastor, or leaders, or any church is going to tell you that what's driving them is ambition, and competition. They want to win the battle of the best church in the neighborhood or in the city or in the state or in the United States. They will never say that, but that is one of the drivers. And it takes a long time to figure out that that's what's actually at work when fundamental decisions are made in the church. So I would say I've never had the opportunity to actually examine a mega church at that level. I do know, a mega church model that the theory is that it's small groups that meet on Sunday. That's the kind of mega church model has the capacity to be working at character formation. But I can't say that I looked at the people I've met there have been very impressive, but that's what a famous pastor in Canada that was his model as well. JULIE ROYS  19:26 Bruxy Cavey. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:27 Yeah, that's a lot of problems. JULIE ROYS  19:29 Yeah. And he comes from Brethren In Christ Anabaptist background which is my background. I grew up in that so at that was very sad for me to see that happen. SCOT McKNIGHT  19:39 Well, I endorsed a lot of his books so not that long before this story. Yeah, I've known Bruxy a long time. Sad story. JULIE ROYS  19:47 Yeah, it is and Brethren in Christ churches from my at least from my growing up, I haven't been in one for many years because we don't really have them in the Midwest, but I felt like they were phenomenal at character formation, spiritual formation. You talk about three pivotal priorities–and one you've touched on–but I want to do a little bit of a deep dive because we're talking about emphasis on character, not ability. I mean, that seems like one of those like, Duh, this is basic, right? I mean, we should be all about character. But why is it that this is such a misplaced priority? Like we really are not looking at character in our churches, and we find, pastor after pastor after pastor falling into scandal and into disrepute, because of character flaws? Why is this? SCOT McKNIGHT  20:39 I think, let's say the pastor on the platform is a different beast altogether than ordinary people in the church. But those aren't the same things. The character issues, you're expecting people to hire a pastor to be able to perform on that platform every Sunday, and put butts in the seats and bills in the plate, and baptisms in the pool. And buildings on the campus. That's what they hire him for. But I would say there's a couple things. Number one is our church is, let's say, measurement devices, or success measurements are not shaped by that at all. A second thing is, it's extremely difficult to measure spiritual growth in a true character formation. And I think I said two, but I got a third one. And it takes a lot of pastors. A lot. You can't have one pastor working with the transformation of 50 people. They can't do that. They don't have that kind of time. That's why the small group model has the capacity. If you don't have pinheads running the small group. If you have people who are Mr. Rogers, like who get to work with people in that small group. We just have a lot of things distorted in the wrong direction. And they start in the wrong location. JULIE ROYS  22:06 And this is the challenge, isn't it? Like you said in the book, if you're going to transform from a toxic culture to a TOV one, what you've seen is that it takes minimum seven years, probably three years before you see this change start to happen. And often the church will shrink. In Oak Hills, they lost what 1000 people? LAURA BARRINGER  22:28 Yeah. JULIE ROYS  22:28 Yeah. And I said this at the beginning of the RESTORE conference, to the pastors who were there, because we talked about, you know, a lot of church hurt at these conferences. And I did hear from one pastor who came and this was at the previous year, and he said, “Yeah, it was really, really powerful conference, but I kind of got the feeling as a pastor that maybe we're the bad guys.” And so I wanted to make sure this one to say, “No, we love you. We're so glad you're here. And the fact that you as a pastor, invested in coming to hear from wounded souls, about the way that they've been hurting the Church says something about you and your character and why you're here. And you're exactly the kind of pastors that we need in our churches.” Yet. I think if I were doing a conference on how you can grow your church overnight, I wouldn't have enough seats, if I had a proven method of making your church double overnight. But what you're talking about here is, here's a path to making your church maybe smaller, maybe less successful in the world's eyes, and trying to get people to buy into this model. But in the end, there's greater fulfillment isn't there in knowing that you're actually producing people who are furthering the kingdom of God? Because you're actually modeling Christ to people. It's a powerful thing. But how do you get people to buy into that? SCOT McKNIGHT  23:48 Well, when you were talking, I'm sitting here thinking of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with his renegade subversive hideout seminaries in northern Germany and Prussia, and the impact of Dallas Willard on someone like James Smith, where it was over time, with one person working with another person. And that's a different calling. And it's not like that's what we hire people in churches to do. You know, the last Barna book I read by David Kinnaman, was on pastors. And I think the number was 12% of pastors enjoy discipleship. LAURA BARRINGER  24:34 That low? SCOT McKNIGHT  24:35 Yeah, it may be lower than that, but I think it was in the book, Pastor Paul. But that is not what they see themselves doing. They see themselves preaching and leading and administrating and organizing. And some of them writing books, and traveling around speaking at conferences. That's what they see themselves doing. But if you work in Navigators or you work in Campus Crusade or InterVarsity on a campus and colleges, which are some of the most effective TOV institutions in the world. They are all about working with young college students and helping them deal with the fact that they got drunk last night, and we got to find out what's going on. And they disciple people. And it takes a lot of time. And in four years, those students, a lot of them want to come back and do the same to other college students. That's the multiplication principle of Navigators. And Navigators is all about one on one, JULIE ROYS  25:37 And what virtues should we be looking for? And should we be cultivating? LAURA BARRINGER  25:42 Theologian. SCOT McKNIGHT  25:43 (laughter) There's a couple of ways to look at this. And I think we need to take the major virtue passages in the Bible. So look at the 10 commandments. Alright, look at the book of Psalms, pick a couple of prophets and say, What are they trying to inculcate in people? And how they should live? Then look at the Sermon on the Mount. Look at Paul's list of the fruit of the Spirit. Look at what Paul says about love in First Corinthians 13. Look at First John's teachings. Avoid Jude because he's too hot, a little angry all the time. So and just realize that there are different ways to package this over time to frame what virtues we want to talk about. Now, there's ways of summarizing, let's say, we want to be followers of Jesus. That's a summary statement. Or we want to be characterized by love. Or if you're in the Puritan movement, you want to be characterized by godliness. And that means you read the Puritans, and you subscribe to Banner of Truth  Trust, and all this, and these become your heroes. Jonathan Edwards is the guy. But all these terms are summary statements that need to be unfolded. And so the virtues, the character that forms these virtues, so that they become sort of instincts can be framed in different ways. But all those passages can help us shape the kinds of virtues we're looking for. JULIE ROYS  27:23 So we have character is one of our priorities. Another one is TOV power. And I have to say, when you hear that word power, and you've experienced abuse of power, just that word power, can be scary. So how can we tell if power is being harnessed and used in a good way, as opposed to a toxic way? LAURA BARRINGER  27:49 Yeah, this is a big one for us. After A Church Called TOV was published, we received letter after letter after letter, we wrote a lot about sexual abuse, we heard mostly from victims of power abuse, we would get these letters every week, my dad would get some I would get some. And it was story after story of people who had been wounded, mostly by pastors who had misused their power. And the people had tried to stand up for themselves or those who found the courage to maybe try to talk to elders. It was like they didn't get very far because people didn't believe them, or it was done behind closed doors. So people say, Well, I haven't seen him do that. That's not how he is. That's not my experience. And that was so painful, because it discounts the reality of what another person endured. So this was a really big one for us when we went to write PIVOT. All of us have power, right? Like, I have power, I'm a teacher, so I have the power to influence those under me and how people use their power is a measure of their character of who they are as a person. SCOT McKNIGHT  29:09 People have power. And anybody who exercises a decision, who is a leader, has a right to make those decisions. And people underneath them, I guess, have a right to bellyache about them as well. I mean, that's part of the complaint culture that workplaces develop. But to me, one of the signs of power desire is when someone who is your leader makes a decision that you don't like how do you respond? Do you manipulate? Do you gossip? Do you attack? Do you get other people in your corner so that you can eventually destroy that person's reputation and character? That's a very important element of power, in institutions, is a complaint culture that forms. All narcissists have no self awareness of the power that they have, and what they are doing to people around them. They have lack of self awareness. So they think what they're doing is right all the time. And when they're criticized, they DARVO. “That's not what I was doing.” Well, yes, you did. That's the impact you made on it. So they lacked that awareness.  So it needs to be revealed by people being able to have a safe place to be able to express what they've experienced from a person. I've been in institutions where presidents were removed. I'm at one right now. And the former president, there were too many people who were released, and then stories were released about that person. And The Roys Report reported about it. JULIE ROYS  30:53 Yes we did. SCOT McKNIGHT  30:54 Not very good news for our seminary. But those were symptoms, signs that something's going on. And it was not a safe place for people to be able to register their complaints. And it didn't seem to be achieving anything, I think power is going to happen. People get to do this, who are leaders. They have power. So they exercise their power, and not everybody's going to agree with it, and people get to interpret it. And they can be dead wrong, and be very convincing, even though they're wrong. But at the same time, there has to be some sort of device mechanism, TOV tool, that gives people some indications of how that person is using power. And I think it's possible to reveal some of this stuff. But I think it's impossible to change a narcissist. JULIE ROYS  31:52 So you have to have somebody in positions of leadership, who obviously have the character and wants to use their power in a right way. And one of the things that that you do in this book, which I think is really helpful, is you not only have questions at the end of each chapter, but you do have assessment tools, where you can begin to assess some of these things to say, Okay, this is a toxic culture, this is a TOV culture, this is a good way of using power. And maybe not so good way of using power. It's a beautiful thing, when you see somebody in power, use that power to protect others to draw out someone who's quiet, who wouldn't normally speak, to be able to notice the weak and the vulnerable and to use the power to protect and to help. SCOT McKNIGHT  32:39 I think people who use power well, are not recognized as using power. Because something happens and you go, Oh, that was really nice. And you didn't realize that that leader decided to elevate somebody in a way that empowered them. So when they're empowering others, you usually don't recognize that they're using power. It's when they violate the power. A good umpire in a baseball game is unrecognized. And when you're talking about the umpires, it's because they screwed up. They messed up stuff. You notice it. “That was terrible!” And I think that's the same way with leaders. If you don't recognize their leadership, and things are functioning pretty well, you probably got a pretty good leader. JULIE ROYS  33:33 That's good. Yeah, I would say the number one problem of most of the bad leaders that I report on, obviously, the character issues there and everything, but the way it often comes out is in hypocrisy. They're just not living, what they say they believe. And you make a big point of one of the priorities is you got to model. You got to be the example of what you want your culture to be. And I love this, one of the people that you talk about modeling this goodness is, as you said, Mr. Rogers. Explain how Mr. Rogers is modeling exactly what he's teaching. LAURA BARRINGER  34:14 Well, when we went to write A Church Called TOV, I kept sending my dad examples like, what about this pastor or this one? And he kept saying, no, no, no. And he said, We need somebody that's dead. (laguhter) Because–that's exactly what he said–they have to be dead. Because there's too many scandals that erupt. And sure enough, we have a story in A Church Called TOV, that when it went to the next printing, we had to remove because the pastor, allegations etc. So we use Mr. Rogers as our example. Mr. Rogers, from everything we have read about him, the man that you saw on TV was the man that everybody knew. He was patient. He was gentle. He was just as kind in person as he was on the television screen. He would get distracted by children, he would tell Oprah, I'll come on your show, but you can't have children in the audience because I will be distracted, I will be I know that I will be, all of my attention will go to them the vulnerable. That's what my heart and soul is, is for. And so when you said hypocrisy, that's the opposite of Mr. Rogers, there are some beautiful stories that we recited in the book about him that he is as good a man as he appeared to be. JULIE ROYS  35:35 Hmm. And there was one in the book, I thought was so touching about a man whose wife . . . was the wife, the employee, I believe, or was LAURA BARRINGER  35:44 The wife was the employee. JULIE ROYS  35:46 Yeah. So the wife was the employee, and she died. It sounds like young, got cancer and, and Mr. Rogers would show up and visit, you know, visited on a regular basis. And the day she died, he he knocked on the door and said, I just had a sense that, that you needed me today, or you needed to be visited today. And here, she was dying. And he came in and cried with him, you know, as his wife was dying and prayed with him. And the husband said, he never talked about it. Nobody ever heard that story about Mr. Rogers. LAURA BARRINGER  36:21 He didn't get up and talk about the ways that he volunteered or helped people. I also love the story about the reporter who maybe this is in A Church Called TOV. No. I remember I don't remember no. He said, “Do you know, who is the most important person in the world to me right now?” And the reporter was like, Who who is the most important person? Mr. Rogers said, “You, I'm talking to you, you have my full attention. You're the most important person in the world to me right now.” And the reporter was, like, stunned that a celebrity would spend that much time and give him that much attention for I think he said an hour which was unheard of with celebrities, interviews. JULIE ROYS  37:05 Well, and as a reporter, you're just happy when somebody wants to talk to you because most of the people I talk to, they don't want to talk to me. SCOT McKNIGHT  37:13 But Julie, you know the issues of the people that that we want to find out more about, that have become celebrities that Katelyn Beaty has written about. They're there. And you just think they're just amazing because of the platform persona, that they've presented in their pastoral sermons. You just go, “I want to be like that person.” Okay, so the tendency is to make those the examples. And all you see about them is the presentation on the platform. And that's why I said to Laura, we can't take living examples now. I mean, yes, I understood what she was doing. And she had some wonderful stories, and they they truly are probably good people. But because I'm older, you know, I think when when I wrote when we wrote TOV I was probably 65. JULIE ROYS  38:10 A whippersnapper. SCOT McKNIGHT  38:11 Yeah, I was young compared to the day.  here were people that we wanted, you know, that I could easily say they were fantastic people that in the last five years, I would say, Well, maybe that's not so true. So it was important for me I finally said, Laura, we got to find dead people whose whose stories are unimpeachable. But I have found stories of people that I have exalted in my years as a professor. I've written I've used their names. And I discovered later that they were horrific people. And nobody knew. Nobody was talking. Because even in those days, you didn't talk about things like that. We, I mean, when Kennedy was a president, we didn't talk about what was going on in the White House, behind closed doors. Now we know these things. So that's why we went with dead people. But but nobody questions Mr. Rogers. And so we used him in both books. LAURA BARRINGER  39:09 I remember that–my dad's texts, “Nope, only dead people.” JULIE ROYS  39:13 Problem is even dead people, Ravi Zacharias that didn't come out, you know, until after he was dead. But I mean, obviously, a little better if they've had a little bit of time, between their life and some study of the kind of person they were, SCOT McKNIGHT  39:30 I would also say that nobody's perfect. Not many people are like Mr. Rogers. So people with warts and all is not the worst thing. David is hardly a beautiful character in all the pages of the Bible. The apostle Paul can lash out at people. I don't know about Peter. Mary seems to be a good person, other than the fact that she's trying to tell Jesus what to do and how to be a messiah. So we just we can't expect perfection but we expect a certain level of maturity that we can count on. And we may find out that Pastor got really mad one day and said something he shouldn't have, but he admitted it. JULIE ROYS  40:11 That's a big one to me is Do you hear the pastor admitting wrong, asking for forgiveness, because that needs to be a regular practice. Let's talk about some of these practices of transforming cultures. And you talk about there being a transformational agent. Normally, when you see these kinds of transformations happening, and as well, a transformational coalition. SCOT McKNIGHT  40:35 Julie, let's just say you realize your church has got some stuff in the soil that needs to be healed. Alright. And you go through a process of discovery. And you come up with five things that we need to work on in the next five years. All right, I think that's a pretty normal process. I don't believe that the pastor should be in charge of all this. Now, in most churches, I believe the pastor will be in charge of this because the pastor is in charge of everything. But I think it should be handed off to a transformation agent, who is independent, and can get more honest responses from people than the pastor can, unless the transformation agent is just a flying monkey, as the as the words are used, or a mole for the pastor. If it's a person of character, they're going to be trusted, and the pastor is going to have to listen to the results. But I think it's good to have a transformation agent whose responsibility it is to organize administrate, to evaluate, and to pass the information on so that it can be implemented in a really good way to the leadership of the church. But it can't just be one person or two people. And it's not based on it's not a bunch of sermons, LAURA BARRINGER  41:52 I don't want to skip over something really important that we learned from Edgar Schein, again, the major researcher on this topic of transforming culture, is he said, You can't transform anything until your problem is clearly defined and crystal clear. That's what led us to write the TOV tool so that it can help groups or whomever is taking it churches, groups, teams, clearly identify areas of strength, and then areas where growth is important. And Edgar Schein said, that's like the most important step of all is listening. And that might take a lot of conversation and a lot of authenticity and hearing maybe things about yourself, you don't want to hear. But that's like one of the most important steps is identifying, “we are not putting people above the reputation of our institution.” Or, “it seems like we're really good at truth telling, but we're not offering a lot of justice to the wounded.” So every organization is different. But those conversations where you unearth, what are the strengths, and where do we need to grow in these areas of like that we created the TOV tool out of our circle of TOV from the first book. It just cannot be skipped over. And then that can be used by the transformation agent and the coalition to have some data and listening as they move forward or attempt to move forward. SCOT McKNIGHT  43:28 And I would add to the coalition is you can't transform a culture because you're a persuasive speaker, with a couple of friends in your church that are all doing this. It takes a culture's ownership to get there. So our theory is okay, we got a transformation agent and a couple people, they studied the Bible, I won't get into all that, then it grows to a group of five. And then it grows to a group of 10. And then it splits into a couple more groups that grow to a group of 30 or 40. And you're starting to build a critical mass of people who are committed to this idea and working it out. But they're contributing to the idea. So it's not like I got a great idea. Now we're gonna go implement it. It is, I have an idea. Let's work on this together. And before long once you get 50 to 75 people involved in it, there's ownership but the idea has now grown into something that is healthier, stronger, deeper, wider. It starts to get ownership, if you have a fairly sizable church, before you go to the church. JULIE ROYS  44:36 And I think what's to me exciting about listening about some churches that did this. And even hearing you talk about it, this is a very organic thing that happens as people are discussing this and something starts to grow. I mean, basically, this culture begins to reform as people are reforming. Right? And they're beginning to model it, and they're beginning to change, and so then you begin to see this transformation happen. And then hopefully you're moving into a different culture. Right? And the congregation becomes a different kind of culture.  And those who quite frankly, don't buy into it, leave. I mean, I remember the power of that when we did youth ministry, like we just said, from the beginning, we don't do entertainment, the world does that better than us. But if you want to come and worship and pray, like, we're really going to be a part of that, and studying the Bible, and the ones that weren't interested in that would just fall off. And then we would gather a group of people who really wanted to do that, and it became our culture. But it takes that kind of time. But you talk about then the last part of your book about the powers and the congregational culture powers, I thought it was really interesting, especially Laura, when you were talking about kind of the practices that led to a culture at Willow Creek when you were there. And then you contrasted that with these practices that led to a culture at this Quaker church that was completely different. Talk about that, because I thought, it's such a great example and a contrast, because we often don't think about what we're doing when we're doing it, and how this is creating a culture. But I think, as I was reading it, it made me think about things that I'm doing, and what kind of culture does that create? So yeah, talk about that. LAURA BARRINGER  46:29 So I didn't really realize what the culture of Willow Creek was, until I left Willow Creek. And being out of it allowed me to see and I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying like, factually, there are a lot of people that attend, they put people up on stage, that walk through the campus with bodyguards. And there's sort of a feel of like haves have nots, or the whole service leads up to what the speaker is going to say. And you know, weeks ahead of time, who's going to be speaking and like Mark, and I'd be the first to tell you, like, we got into a terrible rut at Willow, we were like, Oh, we don't really like that speaker. So we're not going to go this week, you know, our neighbors would be like, come for a bike ride. Okay, we'll do that instead, like, we were just consumers of a show. So we left Willow Creek and experienced the Anglican tradition, which is very different. But then what I wrote about in the book, I tried to get into less Twitter fights or whatever X fights? JULIE ROYS  47:37 It's weird. It's just weird. LAURA BARRINGER  47:39 I know. One day, I just wandered into this, like delightful conversation with a Quaker pastor. And I remember his name, because we have a family friend of the same name, Scott Wagner, and he posted pictures, and I don't know anything about the Quakers other than what I've read, you know, just a little bit. So I'm not I don't know where they stand theologically at all. But his pictures were so startling to me. They were getting ready for a meeting. And the chairs were set up in a circle. And it was just in this like, small room with wooden floors. And after coming out of the Willow Creek tradition was like, well, where's the speaker gonna stand? But that wasn't what the goal was at all. It was like a meeting where everybody was seen as equals. And I don't know, it seems like is that how the early church was? That's how I picture people in my head, like, sitting in a circle together. Not like all of us staring at a person on stage. JULIE ROYS  48:44 I have to say, being in a house church now and experiencing meeting in homes, and we haven't had a sermon. You know, in the past 18 months since I've been going to our house church. There's no sermon. We're opening the Bible. And there's a facilitator and we dig in together, and we study the Bible together. And I just love it. I mean, I come away every Sunday, it's like, wow, that was rich, that was really good. And I've gone to a church too where we were in the round, in fact, is one of your colleagues there, Dave Fitch, his church that we attended, where we would have the chairs all in a circle, I love that, I think in the Anglican tradition, instead of the sermon being the highlight, really, the table is. Eucharist. That's the highlight, and that communicates a value. So I think looking at what are we doing in the service, and I have wondered about this. And to me, the fact that we make a man on stage preaching, which is very heavy head knowledge. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm, I often wonder if that's sort of a post enlightenment way of thinking that the pinnacle of the service is the sermon? SCOT McKNIGHT  49:56 It happened at the reformation that turned the sermon into a major, the major focus. The early church didn't have sermons. LAURA BARRINGER  50:04 They had letters, right? They would hear, read letters? JULIE ROYS  50:07 And at that one sermon where, what is it Eutychus?  Fell out the window and died. You know, SCOT McKNIGHT  50:12 Paul was talking, he was talking. But I mean, it was a it was a house church, you're talking about a normal sized living room with maybe an atrium with some water in the middle. And people around it talking and someone instructors instruction. There'd be the reading of a letter. There'd be the exposition of a psalm or something. And eventually, they would read scriptures and then preach about or teach about it. But it was a fellowship, where there was instruction, there was prayer, there was worship, there was caring for one another. And that's where the church got started. Jesus didn't preach sermons in the houses, he told stories, parables, it's where the parables came from. JULIE ROYS  50:59 Well, obviously, there's a lot of things that we can do to sort of jumpstart transformation. We've talked about some of those. But I love that you kind of land this book with where the power really comes from. And it's from the Holy Spirit, and it's from God's grace. So talk about the importance of relying on the Spirit, and grace, so that we're not manufacturing something but we're actually being led by God. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:31 When we were writing this book, I told Laura, probably 10 times, every chapter could be the first chapter. They were all interlocking. LAURA BARRINGER  51:39 We had trouble ordering the chapters. SCOT McKNIGHT  51:42 And theologically, I wanted to begin with that theological ending, but I know that just sounds like I'm a seminary professor. And we've got to get people interested in the topic first. So the neuralgics is what it's called sometimes. So yeah, I think the example of Christ, the significance of the Holy Spirit being open to the Spirit, the power of God's grace, which is operative, in the example of Christ, and in the power of the Spirit, all those things are what ultimately is responsible for transformation of an individual person, and of a community, a church. If we think it's just mechanics, and structure, and system and program, it's gonna go dry. But when it is the dynamic of the Spirit of God, leading us, prompting us, directing us, making us change, making us think of new things, we're in the right place. LAURA BARRINGER  52:39 That's what I love about the story of Oak Hills is that they say we felt this sense of dis equilibrium in our soul. And they surrendered to what they felt the Spirit was telling them and leading them. And they followed. And I think they would say, the transformation was worth it. Rather than having consumers, they were discipling people to grow in Christ. And they were like, we just steadily pushed against the culture, and taught people how to live like Jesus. That was it. JULIE ROYS  53:12 And I believe that Jesus said, his last words were not to go and make big churches or converts. But yeah, to make disciples, that is, what the church should be doing. And so I just really appreciate what you guys have put together here in this book, and that you're really moving people, I think, towards something beautiful and something good. Any last thoughts or final encouragement for those who might be thinking of embarking on this journey of trying to transform or are in the midst of it. And I mean, as I said, at the beginning, it's not for the faint of heart, it's not going to be easy. It could be a seven year or even longer process, any encouragement for them right now. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:00 I would say go with it. There's going to be many times when you'd like to return back to where you started and say, we'll just go back to where it was working. Roll with it. Because it's going to be different for every group. But it's worth it to pursue this direction, to see what God can do in your church and in your institution, over time, as you begin to focus on, let's say, the power of God's grace to transform us into being people who are like Jesus Christ. JULIE ROYS  54:34 And that's pretty exciting. LAURA BARRINGER  54:36 Amen. JULIE ROYS  54:37 Well, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you and appreciate the ministry that you're having and the impact that you're having. This has been extremely helpful. So thank you. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:48 Thank you, Julie. LAURA BARRINGER  54:49 Thank you for having us. SCOT McKNIGHT  54:51 Thanks, Laura. LAURA BARRINGER  54:52 Thanks, Dad. JULIE ROYS  54:54 Scot and Laura, thank you so much for the gift of this book—and the gift of your time today. This has been so helpful . . . And if you'd like a copy of Scot & Laura's new book, Pivot, we would be happy to send you one for a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising. We simply have you—the people who care about exposing toxic churches and leaders, and then encouraging them to transform into TOV ones. So, if you'd like to support our work and get the book Pivot, just go to JulieRoys.com/donate. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from Restore by Carson Weitnauer on Disillusionment and Hope. This is an extremely vulnerable and moving talk where Carson tells his profound disillusionment when he discovered the truth about Ravi Zacharias. At the time, Carson was a director at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and Ravi had been his hero. This is such a painfully honest, yet hopeful, talk—and one you won't want to miss. So, be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won't miss any of these episodes! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged!   Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/xfqTi7vFjhw What are the telltale signs of spiritual abuse? And once you've been subjected to it, how do you heal? On this edition of The Roys Report, we're rolling out the first of 11 talks from this year's Restore Conference. This was an amazing gathering of survivors of church hurt and abuse—as well as pastors and Christian leaders wanting to better minister to these survivors. The gathering featured some incredibly powerful and eye-opening talks. One of those talks is on recognizing and healing from spiritual abuse, from Pastor Ken Garrett—one who knows about spiritual abuse firsthand. Ken and his family were members of an abusive church in Oregon, which turned out to be a cult. But after escaping the cult in the mid-1990s, Ken went on to complete graduate research on spiritual abuse. And he created the Spiritual Abuse Forum for Education, or SAFE. This is a bi-monthly meetup for survivors of spiritual abuse connect and support each other—where people of any faith or no faith are invited to participate. Ken also is the pastor of Grace Church in Portland, Oregon—and he's the author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. This talk deals with narcissism, control, and breaking free. Ken, who is such a warm and gentle soul, guides us through these difficult issues with a father's heart. Guests Ken Garrett Dr. Ken Garrett is the pastor of Grace Church, Portland, a diverse, historic downtown church, and author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. Ken has spoken and written for the International Cultic Studies Association, and provides support and encouragement to many survivors of abusive churches, cults, and high-demand groups in the Portland area. He founded the Spiritual Abuse Forum for Education, an informal gathering for mutual encouragement and education that welcomes and supports survivors of religious abuse from all faiths. Show Transcript SPEAKERS KEN GARRETT, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:04 What are the telltale signs of spiritual abuse? And once you've been subjected to it, how do you heal? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys, and on this podcast we're rolling out the first of 11 talks from this year's RESTORE Conference. This was an amazing gathering of survivors of church hurt and abuse as well as pastors and Christian leaders, wanting to better minister to the survivors. As one speaker commented, RESTORE is more like a restorative community than a conference. And there's really nothing that quite compares to being there in person. That said, we had some incredibly powerful and eye-opening talks. And one of those talks you're going to hear today, the talk is on recognizing and healing from spiritual abuse, and the person speaking is Ken Garrett, someone who knows about spiritual abuse firsthand. Ken and his family were members of an abusive church in Oregon, which turned out to be a cult. After escaping the cult in the mid-1990s. Ken went on to complete graduate research on spiritual abuse, and he created the Spiritual Abuse Forum for Education or SAFE. This is a bimonthly meet up with Christian and non-Christian survivors of spiritual abuse to connect and support each other. Ken also is the pastor of Grace Church in Portland, and he's the author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing From Spiritual Abuse in  Christian Churches. Ken also is a warm and gentle soul who I'm proud to call a friend, and I'm so excited to share his talk with you. But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well, again, this is the first of 11 talks from the RESTORE Conference, which concluded on October 14. This talk on recognizing and healing from spiritual abuse is by Ken Garrett, a pastor and author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing From Spiritual Abuse in  Christian Churches. Here's Ken Garrett. KEN GARRETT  03:00 Sometimes in the process of recovery from spiritual abuse, it's easy to think in terms of the long haul; Will I ever be okay? Will my marriage be okay? Will my kids get over it? And will I ever go back to church? Or will I ever be able to listen to another loud pastor guy standing behind a pulpit? I mean, all kinds of long-term questions. But really, the recovery is a step-by-step endeavor. And that step by step for me sometimes meant not even getting out of my car when I would drive into the parking lot of a church after I left because guess what? God's will for my life changed when I drove into that parking lot. I couldn't handle it. So, I drive on down the road or drop my kids off at the church and then go get breakfast or something. That's what happened to me, and I want to talk a little bit about it. And Julie kind of covered what I'm up to now is I'm a pastor in Portland, Oregon, had been a pastor of a church there for 20 years in the middle of downtown Portland. And before that, ironically, I served as a paramedic in that district of downtown Portland. In fact, one of the first times I ever preached there, I took care of a gentleman having a hypoglycemic reaction, and then preached and I thought that was so cool as the kind of things you would write about if you were doing that, but that's what happened. And so that's what I do now. I'm a pastor there, and Julie referred to my experience as having been in a Christian cult which is spot on. And I want to assure you today that I know you're in all phases of figuring out what happened to you. I did not refer to my experience or the church I was in as a cult for, I don't know, boy maybe 10 years or so, seven years before I could really think of it that way. And before it occurred to me that I had so much in common really, with my friends that had escaped Scientology, or yoga cults or Hindu cults or white supremacist cults are all of the polygamous, all of those cults. I had so much in common with them. And it was when I started learning about them, I realized I'm certainly, certainly just like them, I've survived a cult. And I was able to start calling it that. I realized, as I'm speaking to you today, that not everybody is comfortable. You're not there, maybe you'll never get there. Spiritual abuse is kind of on a spectrum. And I'm going to share with you some red flags of spiritual abuse in churches that I see and that I believe; not all of those red flags will relate to your situation. But I'm going to be so general about it really, that I think a few bells will go off for you. But it's a process. And wherever you put yourself in that process, I'm delighted that you're here today. That part of it is for you to take a step to cross through the door. Most of you probably know what it's like to walk through the doors of a church after you've had a particularly terrible experience in churches. And that really represents something if you're able to do that. And it represents something today that you did that this morning, you got up knowing, having an idea of the things you were going to hear having an idea of the things we were going to talk about, but you came anyway. And I thank you for that. Yeah, I grew up in Portland, Oregon, and grew up pretty normal. I like to think a normal guy. I  grew up in the Lutheran church, and I live in the neighborhood now that I grew up in. And my parents were Christians and went to church and raised us in the church. I joined the military when I was 20. And during that time, also, I got married. Sharon and I were married and lived in North Carolina for a while. And something that was true about us, and I don't think it's just because she's a Baptist preacher's daughter, I don't I don't think that's the only reason. But we were fiercely devout to our age, you know? We had a little bit of Keith Green, gonna, you know, we're gonna save the world. I mean, good grief, no stopping us. And we were very open to finding ministries that were a little Avant Garde, a little  different, a little edgier. You know, we didn't want our mom and dad's churches, neither one of us did. And so, I was then at work, one day, a fellow paramedic invited me to her church. And she said, Well, Ken, what are you looking for in a church? And I said, discipleship and Bible study. Man, that's candy to a recruiter from a cult, right? I mean, it's just like bing! Guess what we do? And as if that wasn't enough, I actually said, you know, I'd also wouldn't mind joining a church that meets in a home or something like that too Something a little different. She said, we meet in a living room, and thus began in 1984., my journey into a church that began to unravel and fall apart. I'm still thinking through the reasons why it unraveled. I know we talk about abusive churches a lot,  if this was a church, and it was abusive. As if all of you had some malignant designs on each other because you were all bad, you were in an abusive church, you are all abusers or something. That's not true at all. I'm still circling around this issue after many years of studying it. I find a narcissistic personality behind every abusive church I ever find. There's somebody calling the shots and that person has some very distinct attributes about him. And I'm not going to say a whole lot about those attributes, but I'll just say, our guy had those attributes. And he really, we studied the Bible like crazy. I mean, we were studying Greek and Hebrew and church history and giving. Oh, my goodness, like Monday evening, Wednesday morning, Saturday morning evangelism, Sunday morning worship, and then Sunday afternoon fellowship. And that didn't even count meeting during the week with my discipler, mentor, the person who was supposedly going to help me grow spiritually. So, it really kind of ended up eating up our life. which really, when we first went there, we wanted that, we were looking for a big commitment. We did in that sense want to save the world; we wouldn't have admitted that. But sure, why not? Over the years, the whole thing really went off the cliff. And this gentleman who is leading our church, really through all kinds of issues in his life that were simply undealt with, that he really should have gotten, you know, real therapy for and help he didn't. And the church was the low hanging-ist fruit of finding a social group that could be controlled and could become what is called a narcissistic supply for him. And all of those things working together, ended with us moving in together, and living communally with several large homes in a beautiful neighborhood of Portland. And did you know you can get like 24 people into one large home? It was pretty crazy. It was really communal, is what it was, although for some reason, while we were living that way, we and we were with our kids, too, we ended up having three kids in this group. For some reason, it was important that we qualified our communal living that it was semi communal. I don't know what semi meant, because I wasn't in charge of the thermostat or what cable channels we got or anything like that. And I was told when I would eat and what our family was going to do. So yeah, I'm glad it wasn't communal then I guess because semi communal was really bad enough. Well, everything really fall apart, it fell apart. And we really followed him off the cliff. And it's important to note people in my church hate it when I note this. But it's important to note that I was a card carrying fully supportive, on the bus disciple in this group. I progressed to being a kind of a Junior Leader, a deacon in the group, I was teaching, and I spoke a little bit and I supported the whole thing. And that's the way it was for all of us too. That's something that survivors of spiritual abuse, sometimes we have a tough time owning the fact that we really supported it. I mean, we were on target for it. We did alienate friends, we did ruin every Thanksgiving we went to with mom and dad, at least I did. We have trouble sometimes seeing that, because we do carry vestiges of shame about us, don't we? Shame as a husband as a father, I mean, just so that's difficult to look at. And I realize, coming in here today that you probably carry the vestiges of those really hurtful and harmful feelings and things and thoughts about yourself that I'm still picking through 26 I think 20 I don't know 26 years later, so. So, I get it about that. So, in 1996, I had repented of a lot of personal sins in my life. Biggie, Biggie, Biggie things. I mean, the police watched us and the FBI for a while. So, we were kind of serious criminals, I think. And I repented of a lot of sins. And Sharon and I, our marriage, of course had fallen apart in the group and which is kind of what these groups do. And we got together again, although we've known each other since we were kids, we just started piecing together. And this sounds really strange. But the first encouraging thing about my marriage that we pieced together is establishing the fact that if I left the church, Sharon would go with me. Isn't that sad? It's not because she was so bad or, or I was so good. It's because in these kinds of groups, that's how it can be for a marriage. So yeah, and that was like, wow, she's going with me. I can do anything. And here's something interesting. I haven't even touched my notes yet. And I'm glad I didn't write a lot of notes. Here's something interesting. When I first told God I wanted to leave this church, I felt guilty about it. And I felt that I was scared somebody would find out and overhear my prayer or something, even though I was on a mountain in Portland. But when I first told him I wanted to leave this church, the terms that I expressed that to him were this, I'll give up ministry. I'll give up my dreams of being a pastor. And I will put all of these ridiculous books away that I've been poring over for years, I'll walk away from all of those aspirations I had. And I will live on top of a garage somewhere. Man, I'll live in a packing box, a shipping box, I'll live anywhere, if you'll just let me keep my wife and my children. And if you'll do that, God, I won't bother you anymore with these aspirations of Ken being a pastor or anything like that. That says a lot about me and how I viewed God. It really says a lot about what I felt was a transaction happening that I was failing in the contract. I was going  break my contract with God. And I found that that's very, it's actually consistent with Christians and other cults too. Scientologists, when they leave it, they break what for some of them is a 16-million-year contract that they've signed over to follow it. I know that sounds totally wacky. But the first time you hear it, you kind of what, but yeah, and they decided to break that contract. I lived as if I had a contract with God. And as I left the church with Sharon and our children and the few things that we still had to us. And as we walked out the door, on August 28, at about 3pm 1996, and got in our little car and drove away with the associate pastor yelling at me and the elders all angry, and all of that. We went to a hotel because I was too embarrassed to tell my parents, ugh you were right. I'd alienated them so much. I just couldn't take that too. So, we went to a hotel. And the big question, of course, that I carried, and that took a long time to get around was simply the question, what just happened? I was 24 years old, fresh out of the military, great job as a paramedic, buying a house settling into life having babies and here I am, I'm 36, and I'm checking into a little hotel and afraid to call my parents and I'm really freaked out that they'll find out where I'm at. And, wow, what happened? Well, it's really easy to say now what happened, spiritual abuse happened. My religion, spiritual abuse I've written down as the infliction of an emotional, psychological, and spiritual wounding, that is inflicted on a person within the context of that person's religion. Spiritual abuse is not simply located or limited to Christian churches. Spiritual abuse is the use of a person's ideological, metaphysical, or spiritual beliefs, their religion. It's jumping into that world, and then beginning to corrupt the person's thinking, and the person's reasoning. And in many ways, they develop what's called a false self. And that's spiritual abuse when that happens. Now, along with spiritual abuse, are equally terrible abuses and even more terrible that we're not really here to deal with at this event, but sexual abuse, physical abuse, violence, marital abuse, child abuse, economic abuse, professional abuse, I mean, there are so many ways that this abuse happens, and spiritual abuse simply says that these abuses as terrible as they were happened in the context of my religion. The thing that was supposed to help me avoid that abuse. So that's what happened to me. Okay, so let me give you some red flags of spiritual abuse. And I don't expect as I said that these will, you know, make sense to everybody but I'm going to run through them and I got rid of all of my little explanatory notes of my main notes because I thought you know, Ken, you're saying some details here. But as I understand our group here, and what we're doing here today, you guys have the details, you have it down. I'm just stating this out as a general idea about spiritual abuse and how it looks and how it can look. But as I see looking at the schedule of events and speakers, we're gonna get detailed and you're gonna get more details but I'm going to speak kind of generally. I've got 10 things that I think are that I found to be red flags of spiritual abuse. The first thing I should clear up is who joins an abusive church? Who joins an abusive church? I'm not just being facetious about it, but I'll tell you the answer. Nobody. Nobody, nobody joins a church that's going to wreck their marriage, alienate them from their children, take all their money, take them out of professional advancement and educational advancement that they would like to do, like everybody else wants to. Nobody willingly joins that kind of a group. Of course not. We join groups that promise to meet our deepest needs, that promise to give us the community, the quality relationships we want. When we're young families and young parents, they promised to give us other young families and young parents that share our values so we can grow up together in it. This group promises to give us the things we so desperately want. So that's the group we join. And it's the same thing in the world. You know, wherever you're at with it, people don't join a cult, nobody goes out and says, You know what? I like the simplicity of an all-orange wardrobe. And I especially love the simplicity of a vegetarian diet, and the standing on the corner, yelling at people and trying to get their money. That's just icing on the cake baby. That's for me. Of course, nobody does that. They join a group that communicates to them that those deepest needs and desires of their life are going to be met there. And I suspect that's how you guys either joined., or, if you grew up in one of these abusive churches, what you discovered. Okay, so the red flags, the first one is deceit, deceit. Every cultic group, or abusive group, or abusive church is founded when it begins abusing its members. And again, I got to tell you, even though I'm saying members plural, and church plural, in my head, I got a picture of a guy. And that's a bad guy. He's finishing out a 20-year sentence at Oregon State Penitentiary, as we sit here today, for his badness of felony child sexual assault, finally got caught after like three trials. So, I'm thinking of a guy. And I don't know what you might be thinking of, but it's based in deceit. It's based in deceit. The environment of a hurtful church is purposely unclear. The motives are veiled. The atmosphere is controlled. When I say atmosphere, what I mean is the milieu it's the control of the milieu, what you look at what you see who you're with, what kind of music you hear, where the pastor is, how the pastor stands, what does his pulpit look like? What kind of behaviors do you observe, are allowed and what kinds of ones are not? This is the whole cultural milieu, the context and it's based in deceit, because it's presenting to you a picture of the church that is simply not true. And this is important to note, because this is the aspect of an abusive church that destroys your trust, okay? It's the very beginning, realizing, and I hate to put it this way, but realizing you were tricked. And that is a violation of your trust, which, wow, hits you hard. Lose trust in God, lose trust in religion, lose trust in your Bible, lose trust in your friends, your spouse, your religion. And worst of all, you lose trust in God, and you're not sure if you got tricked into the whole ball of wax. So, the first thing I find is deceit with these groups. The second thing and this is not a progressive order, it's just kind of a 10 as they occurred to me. The second thing is isolation. Abusive churches and toxic groups depend on isolating their members from the other's. Moms and dads, brothers and sisters, best buddies from high school, kids you grew up with, other Christians. I mean, the support that could be a support network for you, the abusive church moves toward isolating you away from that and diminishing the importance and the significance of those relationships, to where maybe You'll spend Thanksgiving with your church family, those folks that really love you. And you'll tell your mom and your dad, I'm not going to be able to make it home. Maybe you won't go to the normal Christmas gathering that you've been to all of these years, because you know what? Pastor's teaching of complete study through the book of Mark over Christmas break. That's not something I want to miss. That isolation serves a much deeper purpose than simply showing the power of leadership. The reward and punishments as a system that take place in an abusive church can only take place if you have no outside influences. The abusive leader does not want you to be able to go have a cup of coffee with your high school buddy, and say, well, you'd never believe it. Actually, I'm tithing 30%, which was pretty tough for a new guy and a new paramedic, and with kids and everything, but I don't know, what do you think of that? Well, after my friend got done slapping me he would, he would say something like Ken, wake up, wake up. This is not right. How can this be right? They're rich, and they're making you poor. That kind of discussion and reaction is poison to the leaders and the leader of an abusive church. So, the isolation has to happen. The reason it's important is because you do not become completely pliable until you are effectively isolated, okay? And the way it happens is not through deriding and discouraging you from your present or your relationships or things important to you. It's also through loving you within the group into such a way that you can say, well, maybe my needs will be met here. And it becomes emotionally very important to you that those needs are met and that you're okay with everybody in that group. And you begin making decisions based on the underlying commitment you have to stay good with the group. Isolation is important to these to these groups. Another one – elitism. Elitism. Just the idea of compared to other Christians compared to other churches, compared to other groups, this is a place where it's done right. You might hear the translation of their Bibles criticize; you might hear their pastors criticize. You know, well, what kind of church do you think that must be? They got a woman pastor, right? Don't throw anything at me. I was just using that as an example. So, this elitism begins to happen within these groups. You're actually told, while you're experiencing the worst life you can imagine you're actually told that you're a Green Beret for Jesus. I mean, you're actually in the best group, and you are better and you're going to be better, and you probably are going to save the world. Elitism. Fourth, I see that the independence the freedom of thought begins to be controlled by the group. Nobody likes the word brainwashing, and it's not a good word at all to use in the academic world. It's called thought reform. That is through a system of manipulations and emotional controls, the very way that you as a member think, is changed. That happens partially through being told you're more special than everyone else. And you're elite. Your pastors the best pastor. He's the most like King David. Isn't that something? We really did say that. Yeah. Which if I would have really thought about it, I would have gone, oh man head for the hills. That is not exactly the best person to be like, bless him. But yeah, okay. So, the elitism hits and the independence your ability to think independently gets goofed up. That's why it's hard when you leave a group to think straight. It's hard to think straight. It's hard to pick up a book. I went to the store and stared at the section of Levi's because I needed a new pair of jeans. And it was just months after leaving. I stared at those things. Man, there's like a million different kinds anyway, right? And just trying to make a decision about it. And I walked out after an hour, couldn't decide. It didn't quite take an hour but I also walked out of the supermarket. I could not decide between white and brown eggs. And of course, that wasn't a thing from my cult. It's just my decision making and my trust in myself had gotten so out of shape that at moments I couldn't even control I would be paralyzed and couldn't not think straight. That's generally not a good quality in a paramedic. But there it was, and I managed to survive. So yeah, the independence of thought is hid. And I call that really a freedom of conscience. The idea of being able to believe what I believe and know what I believe and own what I believe in these churches, of course, gets violated. Fifth, I see that the member's private life is violated. Okay, violated, it can take place through simply giving reports to those over you. How are you doing this week? How's your time with God going? How are those memory verses going for you? Can I review you? Are you planning on making it to this? How is this going? Your private life begins to be dismantled. How's your marriage, Kne? How's your marriage? Well, don't just say fine. I mean, how are you doing? When was the last fight you had and, that's stuff that you, you bring up for help and assistance with somebody you trust. It's not something that the bosses ask you. That's your marriage. So, there's a violation. And then of course, confession, the very demand that you as a member, confess your sin a lot, often. And that sin ends up making its way up the chain. And in some churches, they actually write them down. I think the Bible says something about that somewhere, keeping a list, you know. But the confession is a very important part of it, because it involves a public shaming, and an admission of your unworthiness and of your failure. When I went to court, which, you know, 19 years or so, after leaving my cult, I was on the witness stand. And it was very important to the defense attorney to discredit me as a witness, probably because I'm a pastor, because my daughters had been some of the children that this man had abused. But also, I had studied cultic dynamics and whatnot. And so, he thought to himself, well, I don't really want Ken up there. And it was amazing. They remembered sins that I had confessed in 1984. Yeah, and now I'm a 54-year-old man who's, you know, Grace of God moved on from a lot of things in my life. And now I'm faced with 24-year-old Ken with his totally goofed up compromises. And since they remembered it, they told their lawyer, and he nailed me on it in the courtroom, everything from well, I just won't get into it here, but just everything they really it down. And it didn't work. Because when you've left a group like this and faced things, who cares who knows whatever? They thought they were going to make my church maybe fire me or something like, Oh, if they knew what we know about him. That wasn't exactly the case at all. Another red flag is family. How the church treats family relationships. The two that I'll just mention is, first of all, the marital relationship. I've said a couple of things about that already. But also, the relationship of children in the family unit. False teachers and abusive leaders get right to work in fusing marriages, especially young marriages, with issues of dominance, with fake communication with the concept of husbands discipling their wives, or maybe wives discipling their husbands. I mean, I've been to weddings where the pastor, in giving his wedding speech, reminded the young groom that he was now the authority in his bride's life, and he would need the answers. She needed to come to Him for wisdom, no longer her father. Isn't that weird? And I'm thinking to myself, good grief. This is a kid. And he's being told that I mean, I know, he's not even taking responsibility for his own life, because he's 20 years old or whatever. And he also now is responsible for the life of the most precious human being in his life, his wife, and he's set up for failure. Abusive churches hurt marriages, in many, many different ways. And they also hurt the relationships between children and their parents. The healthy connecting, and bonding that should be happening between a child and his mom, especially his mom, but a child and his mom and their dad, in the earliest years of life, often are disrupted in the abusive church, and it hurts because you can't get those years back. The reason this happens is because narcissistic leaders hate dyadic relationships. Strange word: what I mean, there is this, they are jealous of any other two people in their world, having a relationship that is outside of their control, criticism, ability to step right into and mess with anytime they want. They resent these relationships, and they resent the relationships often between parents and their children. That's how it was in my church. You know, he was just jealous. He was just jealous. There's a distinct fear of displeasing leaders in abusive churches. Members end up living their lives with the consideration before they do anything of you know, anything, go out to a movie or whatever. They think, how would pastor so and so feel about this? And would I be in trouble or not? Is this okay or not? And they make decisions based on that. A terrible fear of leadership because of what they can do to you once you've been isolated by them. Then the issue of grace, this is where I could talk for like 10 hours. And I probably wouldn't even touch the bottom of it. The violation of grace that happens in abusive groups and churches is absolutely criminal. If grace is even spoken of, it is relegated to the theology pages of a book to explain the disposition of God, when He graciously and nicely presented Christ in such a way that you and I can believe and escape judgment and sin and, you know, be saved. And that's it. But the issue of graciousness in the church, man that is not just twisted or perverted, it's absent. Grace is absent. That's the number one kind of theology that I find people when they leave these churches and begin to put their lives together  and heal the number one thing that blows them away, if they're in that space, is grace. It's the missing theological point of all of these abusive groups. And finally, leaving the group is traumatic, it's hard to leave. It's not just hard to leave, it's traumatic on you to leave. Long before you leave the group, the message is made clear to you, what will happen to you if you leave the group, what will be said about you by your best friends if you leave the group, how you will be thought of if you leave the group, how you will fail in life if you leave the group. Long before you walk out the door, you see it lived out before your very eyes and how your friends are treated when they leave. And you think to yourself, I don't want that to happen to me. So, the trauma begins before you even leave it. But once you leave it, oh my goodness, oh my goodness, the anxiety attacks, the fear of crowds, the fear of people, the inability to keep commitments you make to meet somebody or to do something, the showing up late for an event or a church or something so that you don't have to talk and then the leaving early, so that you don't have to talk, all of those behaviors,  those all come about because of the trauma that you experienced of your soul being mashed up in a meat grinder by a church. Okay, I've got just a few minutes to say just a few things. How do we begin to heal from this? What does healing look like? How do we begin the healing process? I've got just a few things to say. And the first thing is that the healing process absolutely involves a renewal of trust. It might take a year; it might take 10 years. I suppose I'm 26 years out and I'm still kind of working through it. But trust has been violated. Something that needs to be earned was violated. And you don't trust churches, you don't trust people. You struggle with trusting God. You struggle with opening the Bible, it triggers so much. I mean, so much of what happened to you is centered around somebody tapping a Bible while they were doing it to you. And worst of all, you don't trust yourself. I couldn't trust myself to buy a pair of pants. And I'm raising kids. And I'm giving life support to patients; couldn't trust myself to just make a decision about buying a stupid dozen eggs in Safeway and going home. Your trust in yourself. And if your trust is violated on even those small things, imagine the big things. How do I know how to lead my family? How would I ever know a church that's good or not? How am I ever going to trust another pastor? I trusted that when I trusted that church I trusted that doctrine. I trusted those things and I failed. I should be here and I'm not. I should have this much retirement I don't. I should have this kind of house, I don't, I should have this education, I don't, my wife and I should be experiencing this life we're not. So, trust is violated. And so, the first thing in recovery is to begin to consider the need for trust and make some small choices to restore trust. I'm a very literal guy. When I say small choices, I mean, like, get out of bed. So far, so good. I made it. And that's what I mean is to begin to make good choices, and to establish trust. And of course, that involves people. And that's really the second thing of building back trust is kindhearted people. You need a relationship with people who get it. It's best if those people are people that were in your group with you, they get it, and you can stay up all night telling stories. And that's good. But you need people in some manner. And it can be a handshake and a hello. And that's it for now, no problem, you've done something. But we need human beings to restore trust in human beings. If you're trying to help people recover from these things, this is the most important aspect, that you are a person of integrity and kindness and you stick your neck out for the person that you're wanting to help. And you understand that they don't trust you. And they might not for a long, long time. Okay. And then finally, you need information. You need solid information. I went back to seminary, and I was working on a doctorate, it was on some boring, boring subject that nobody has a right to really take anybody's time. But I switched halfway into studying cults and abusive churches. And all I could find was basically other than a couple of good books, all I could find was devotional materials, or telling me why I needed to be nicer to King Saul when he throws a spear at me. You know what I mean? So, you need, you need education. You need to learn the dynamics of thought reform, of cults, of how psychologically things happen that hurt you. And I had to go into the kind of the secular academic realm to start researching and putting that together, and you need that information. And finally, I got like a couple of seconds. Finally, if you achieve a bit of an education with people, you'll develop the vocabulary to explain what I started out saying what happened to me? You will develop a common language so that you can show up here and get to telling your stories and sharing your heart a lot quicker and you can be understood and empathized with a lot better because you learn a common vocabulary. And over time, you develop the words, and you understand them and you're able to share and to listen to your fellow survivors as you heal. Please bow your heads if you would let me and grant me the respect of letting me pray for you. Gracious King. dear King, Shepherd. Every human being in this room is broken. And every human being everywhere is broken. We're here admitting it. So, we ask you to carry us don't just help us along don't just help things get a little better. Absolutely 100%, save and deliver us. Even now, we want to have a good weekend. But God even now, wherever we're at with this horrible issue, meet us, deliver us, give us trust. Give us good people and teach us father teach us for we are here to learn. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. JULIE ROYS  44:25 Well, again, that's Ken Garrett speaking at RESTORE 2023 which just concluded on October 14. Next week, I'll be publishing my podcast with theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Behringer, on their new book, Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. That's an awesome book and it's sure to be an awesome podcast, so be looking for that next week. Then on November 8, I'll be releasing a talk from RESTORE by Carson Weitnauer on disillusionment and hope. This is an extremely vulnerable and moving talk where Carsten recounts his profound disillusionment when he discovered that someone he thought was a hero of the faith turned out to be a fraud. That hero was Ravi Zacharias. And when Carson discovered the truth about Ravi, he was a director at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. This is such a painfully honest yet hopeful talk, and one you won't want to miss. I also want to mention that the videos of these talks are all available at my YouTube channel. A lot of conferences charge for their videos, but we've decided to make ours available for free because we don't want anyone to miss out on this valuable content because of lack of finances. But these videos do cost us to shoot and edit. So, if you appreciate this content and you're able to pitch in, would you please donate to The Roys Report so we can continue this important service. To do so just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

No Regrets signs veteran leader, prepares for Conference push BROOKFIELD, Wis. - No Regrets Men's Ministry announced this week the signing of veteran leader Ron Sweet as its new Director of Church Engagement. Terms of the deal were not disclosed. Sweet, 52, joins No Regrets with more than 30 years of church ministry experience including assignments in Virginia, Florida and most recently Missouri. As the leader of one of the largest ministries to men in the greater St. Louis area, Sweet exits his post as campus pastor at The Crossing in order to help bolster No Regrets' church relations. “Ron brings a wealth of experience to our team,” said Steve Sonderman, founder and executive director of the ministry. “It is great to get some veteran help as we grow and expand the team. We were looking for the right guy who can get out there and build relationships and be the relational arm of our ministry.” Originally from a small town in northern Illinois, Sweet attended Judson University in Elgin, IL where he played two seasons for the Eagles Men's Basketball team. To this day, the 6-1 former prep standout enjoys working out, watching college football and basketball as well as attending music concerts. “Ron is a great character guy, said Sonderman. “He brings a real heart for the local church and has strong relational skills that will enable him to relate well to churches across the country.” Upon earning his undergraduate degree, Sweet entered vocational ministry as an intern at Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, IL before eventually taking a positon as a full-time youth pastor in Florida where he met his wife Michele. The couple of twenty-five years now have three children (21, 19, and 17). Sweet's pastoral experience include positions overseeing youth, young adult, men and a multi-sitevcampus. His greatest strength is in the area of ministry to men. After attending a No Regrets Conference at Elmbrook Church in 2020, Sweet returned to his church with a vision to reach the men of St. Louis and proceeded to develop the men's ministry from a handful of individuals to more than 400 strong in just two years. “Ron's passion for the Lord and drive for excellence will make him a great fit in our organization,” said ministry director Dan Wetzel. I only wish Ron were a Brewers fan.” When asked to respond, Sweet admitted he is a loyal Chicago Cubs fan but added he is “often broken hearted.” Sweet's addition to the team comes just in time for the build up to the annual No Regrets Conference, set for Saturday, February 3, 2024.

Coach Melvin returns! Coach is the special teams coach at Burlington Central high school. We discuss coaches return to the same high school he was the previous head coach of. How his time at Judson University went. What is like to go from high school to college. And much more! Twitter: CoachMelvin49 Please like, subscribe, review, and share out! https://linktr.ee/thecoachsteveshow Check out belly up sports podcast network! https://bellyupsports.com/ Head to www.guardiansports.com/guardian-caps and use the code: “15OFF” – good for 15% off Guardian Caps to help the impact for football players Get back to the basics with Coach Stone: https://www.coachstonefootball.com/ Get the best sunglasses in the game today! Use for any activity! Go to https://www.yeetzofficial.com/ use the code CSS for 10% off Looking for the cleanest nutrition drink? Looking for the cleanest drink to give you energy without the crash? Head to https://www.swiftlifestyles.com/ and use the code: coachsteveshow to get 15% off! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Coach Melvin returns! Coach is the special teams coach at Burlington Central high school. We discuss coaches return to the same high school he was the previous head coach of. How his time at Judson University went. What is like to go from high school to college. And much more! Twitter: CoachMelvin49 Please like, subscribe, review, and share out! https://linktr.ee/thecoachsteveshow Check out belly up sports podcast network! https://bellyupsports.com/ Head to www.guardiansports.com/guardian-caps and use the code: “15OFF” – good for 15% off Guardian Caps to help the impact for football players Get back to the basics with Coach Stone: https://www.coachstonefootball.com/ Get the best sunglasses in the game today! Use for any activity! Go to https://www.yeetzofficial.com/ use the code CSS for 10% off Looking for the cleanest nutrition drink? Looking for the cleanest drink to give you energy without the crash? Head to https://www.swiftlifestyles.com/ and use the code: coachsteveshow to get 15% off! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What is the secret ingredient to success? It might not be what you think. And it might not even have anything to do with you! On today's episode of the Compete Mentality Podcast, we sat down with former assistant men's basketball coach at Judson University and director of the Grant County Career Center, Nate McNeely. His love for helping people get to where they're going was born out of experiencing the power of key relationships in his own life that helped in discerning the right path for himself. If you've ever longed for a deeper community or more substantive connections in life, this episode is for you! Transform your MIND, transform your GAME. Support the Compete Training Foundation at https://www.competetrainingfoundation.org/ Learn more at https://www.competetrainingacademy.org/ #basketballtraining #mindset #competementality #podcast

Guest Bios Show Transcript Part 2 of our eye-opening podcast on bullying, featuring the woman who blew the whistle on author and pastor, Dane Ortlund, is out! If you missed part one, you can find it here. In this podcast, Ortlund whistleblower, Emily Hyland, describes what she wishes she knew when she was being bullied that she knows now. And anti-bullying expert, Paul Coughlin, offers keen insights from his decades of experience, as well.  Coughlin, author of the best-selling, No More Christian Nice-Guy, and founder of The Protectors, reveals how bullies identify their targets. He also gives steps every person can take to stand up to them.  Meanwhile, Hyland explains how to educate yourself on bullies, but warns against trying to become an expert before taking action. She also shares important developments in her case against Ortlund, author of Gentle and Lowly. For anyone who has experienced bullying, or wants accountability for a bully, don't miss this podcast. You may even want to take notes! Guests Emily Hyland Emily Hyland earned her bachelors in Molecular Genetics and Biotechnology before working for the Office of Naval Research in Washington, DC. While there she received a MHSA in Management & Leadership from The George Washington University. She has worked with the US Army and the Office of the Surgeon General, Accenture, GE, and across finance, manufacturing, health services, and information technology. Recently, she was the Director of Operations at Naperville Presbyterian Church in suburban Illinois. She is married and has three children.  Paul Coughlin Paul Coughlin is an author, an international speaker and the founder and president of The Protectors, which is dedicated to helping schools, organizations and communities combat bullying. His books include No More Christian Nice Guy, Raising Bully-Proof Kids and 5 Secrets Great Dads Know. Paul and his wife, Sandy, reside in central Oregon and have three teenage children. Learn more about Paul and his organization at www.theprotectors.org. Show Transcript JULIE ROYS, PAUL COUGHLIN, EMILY HYLAND JULIE ROYS 00:03 How do you deal with bullying by a pastor or Christian employer? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And this is part two of a two-part podcast with bullying expert Paul Coughlin and whistleblower Emily Hyland. If you missed part one, I'd encourage you to go back now and listen to that. It was a fascinating discussion in which Emily gave new details about the alleged bullying and retaliation she received at the hands of Dane Ortlund. Dane is the pastor of Naperville Presbyterian Church in Naperville, Illinois. He's also the author of the bestselling book, Gentle and Lonely. But according to Emily, Dane is a bully. In Emily's case alleging retaliation by Dane and his church because she blew the whistle on Dane's bullying is now going to trial. And you'll hear about important developments in that case in this podcast. You'll also hear important insights on how to deal with bullies in a Christian workplace. And Emily will share what she wishes she knew back when she was being bullied that she knows now. I'm so looking forward to diving into the rest of my discussion with Emily and Paul Coughlin. But first I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. We now return to part two of my discussion with Paul Coughlin and Emily Hyland. Specifically, Emily explains more of what she wishes she knew back when she was being bullied that she knows now. And one thing I've learned about Emily is that she doesn't do anything halfway. So, when she realized something wasn't right, she quickly devoured resources like author and advocate Wade Mullins' book by that title. But Emily urges that while it's important to find resources, victims shouldn't go overboard and get a PhD. We've kind of touched on this, you said find resources, but don't get a PhD on the subject. I'm guessing, just knowing a little bit about you, Emily, you like to master something before you move forward with it. And I'm guessing you couldn't do that. But you did a great job of informing yourself; talk about that process. EMILY HYLAND 03:08 There are so many more resources that are available in this moment than there were two and a half years ago. Coming right out of it, that book by Wade Mullen was the first I read because of the title, Something's Not Right. Like you're right, that is exactly describing it. I have to read that. And I went through, and I read Diane Langberg and Scot McKnight and Laura Behringer's book. I read Chuck DeGroote, I went through an entire podcast called Power Corrupts and have been increasingly able to articulate accurately what happened and that makes me feel more safe, that I am not speculating. I can say, in the fewest words possible, here's what happened, and the impacts and why it was wrong. That has helped in the legal sense is that I don't waste my time on the nebulous side of just thinking, well, what might have those pastors been thinking? I mean, I don't know what they were thinking, I don't know their hearts. A psychiatrist maybe could get at some of these things. I don't need to know those things. I just need to accurately know what was going on in my own mind, in my own heart. I think one resource that I value now is that I wish I'd had then was there was no ChatGPT two years ago, and I wasted a lot of words trying to get my point across. And people don't realize that when you're making an accusation about a pastor, you're making it against a professional communicator, somebody who is possibly way better with words than their victim. That was really hard. I had just too many words. And now ChatGPT has made a big difference just for me personally, to feel more confident in describing the situation. But I really don't think that you need to be 100% certain and able to write a dissertation on it to step forward and say, I've seen bullying behaviors. We need to tackle it now. But you've got to stand up and say something, whether it's on your behalf or the behalf of somebody else. Bullies need to be confronted to their face. You can't shove a book at them and say, read this; does it sound like you? You have to speak it out to people to say, this is an individual interpersonal matter. Books help to get you the right words, but you can't get around the fact that somebody, at some point, needs to bring it up to their face. JULIE ROYS 05:26 Hmm. And one thing if I could add to that, is give yourself some grace. Because I heard you say, like my own motives and my own. It's so hard when you're in the midst of this and you're angry, and you have a right to be angry, and you're hurt, and you have a right to be hurt. And in all that to be absolutely pristine in every attitude and thought, of course, you're not going to be. And I think people need to have some grace with themselves when they're walking through this. I remember once we were leaving a church and I said to somebody, oh, I just want to make sure that we don't sin. And he's like, No, you will, but try to minimize that. Just hearing that gave me I don't know, just kind of a relief that Okay, right. I'm human in this and don't have to be perfect. PAUL COUGHLIN 06:15 Julie, if I did add to that there's a great line by Shakespeare. And he says that some people are more sinned against than sinner. And that is how it is when it comes to bullying in the workplace in faith-centric organizations. What's interesting is that many people who are targets of bullying are nice people. And nice people will spend so much more time worrying about their behaviors than the person who is abusing them, harming them and their family. We really need to move away from that thinking. I also think that thinking is baked into the system as well, in the rhetoric used by many of our leaders for decades, into make us think that there is something fundamentally wrong with us, when we recognize this behavior in other people. We really need to move away from that, we need to stop being so nice, which is often a knee jerk reaction to people pleasing, it has nothing to do with the fruit of the spirit of kindness. Niceness is never mentioned in the Bible, for example, as an attribute of the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, it's not a fruit of the Spirit, and bullies in the workplace, particularly within the church faith-centric organizations, they use our niceness against us. It's one of the reasons why we're targeted. We don't use the word victim at the protectors very often, we prefer the word target, and here's why. You have been selected the bully in the workplace. The bully pastor has picked on some people but not other people. Why is that? Because a bully is not looking for a fight, they want to overwhelm another person. So, they look for the nice person, they look for the person for example, who lives by turning the other cheek. There is no more tortured scripture in the theater of bullying, then turn the other cheek. When you put it in context. It has to do with having a generous spirit. It has nothing to do with accepting abuse from another person. So, we really need to have these distinctions. Niceness is really not a virtue, it's actually a vice in disguise. It's often the sin of cowardice, Revelation 21:8, we need to get tougher and stronger. We need to speak the truth in love. We still need to be gracious. But we also need to be truthful. I love what Emily said, in that someone needs to speak to the bullies face that is so important. If I give one piece of advice. The sooner you stand up to a bully in the workplace in the church, the better your life is going to be. The sooner you do it, the better. JULIE ROYS 08:44 So good. And in that some of the weapons that are used commonly against the person who speaks up is the word gossip. And you're labeled gossip. I'm guessing, Emily, that happened to you? I don't know. But did you find that parsing out what gossip is and understanding and distinguishing between that and what you were doing, was that an important step for you? EMILY HYLAND 09:10 The verbiage was because I wasn't talking to people about what was going on. And I regret caring about somebody's reputation more than the harm they were causing people. Gossip is a hard concept in the church because a church is like a proxy for family not having family in the area. And so, I want people to know what's going on in my life. I want to know what other people's is going on, how can I care for somebody or support somebody if I'm really not knowing what's going on? But then there's that sinful gossip of self-serving prideful nitpicking rumor spreading,. Those things can really be meshed together. And for my experience is that this came all that this gossip part came to like this moment, the single experience where I've talked to two elders, and they should know what they're doing. And there was this pivot as soon as they told Dane and the associate about what I had said. And now the elders are saying, Oh, we made a mistake. We should be modeling Matthew 18. Let's go backwards. You go meet with him privately. And I was like, what? JULIE ROYS 10:19 Matthew 18, just to interject for anybody who doesn't know this, if turn the other cheek is the most abused, this has to be second, right? Yeah. It's Matthew 18, which instructs, and again, this is with personal offenses. It says, with a personal offense to first take your offense to your brother one on one, then if he doesn't listen to you to take one or two people with you, then if he doesn't listen, then speak it to the entire church. Again, Matthew 18 is not a prescription for bully pastors. I would say ITimothy 5:20, is the prescription for bully pastors, which is when there's an elder who's sending that you should publicly expose him so that others may stand in fear. Good grief, somebody who's being bullied, does not need to go through a Matthew 18. They go to people who are supposed to be advocates who are supposed to hold the pastor accountable. And when they don't, then to me, you're completely in a ITimothy 5:20 situation where it's time to publicly expose the sinning pastor. So rarely hear that passage. Instead, we always hear Matthew 18. And it's used as a club. It's used abusively, and it's a misapplication. PAUL COUGHLIN 11:31 Julie let's say that a person has gone under a sexual assault. Do we really think that we would require that person to meet one on one? No one but your most ardent fundamentalist would say yes to that. Most people would say, okay, that's an exception. I'll give you that exception. How is that the only exception? And this is used in Christian schools, by the way with kids who are being bullied, I argue it absolutely doesn't apply, in fact, you're retraumatizing that poor kid whose been the target of bullying to sit in the same room. So, we really need more than knowledge of Matthew 18. We need wisdom. And wisdom is doesn't apply to all situations at all times. EMILY HYLAND 12:10 And that's what made this so difficult is that I've just told two elders about the bullying and intimidation in those words. And their response is, I think we need to go do this again. And you need to go meet with him privately. And I can't say no, he's my boss. So that's what we do. And it's a closed-door private meeting, no witnesses. What was said in that meeting? But what really stood out to me was his line, have you told anyone else about this? It sounded like it was delivered, like straight out of a horror story to the character whose body is never found, because what the answer is, is that if I had said, Yes, I was guilty of gossip about a pastor, my church elder. If I said, no, there are no witnesses in the control of the narrative still possible, as long as I'm not around to contradict anything. And that's what happened. Forty-eight hours later, that's what I told him. I said, No, I haven't said anything, because what I believe is that gossip hinders reconciliation efforts. And I wanted this to be reconciled. I had no premonition that this was unrecoverable. I know better now. But what I thought then is that, yeah, there was no need to gossip, because it's like I saw a problem. I'm like, let's get these elders involved. Let's get this back on the rails moving on. And what it actually was, is, I did myself a disservice by not gossiping more. I don't want to gossip. But I wish I had talked to people who were safe and outside of that church. JULIE ROYS 13:40 And that's not gossip. No, that is getting the help that you need in certain situations. And so important for us to understand, distinguish between those. What about the family impact? Because you have children. And I've heard this from numerous people where I would do this, I would speak up, but I've got children in the church. Sometimes it's the spouse, there's all these connections and leverage that, quite frankly, the leader or the organization has over the person that's being bullied. Talk about that and how you navigated that. EMILY HYLAND 14:21 For me, I kept this all under wraps. Nobody knew, nobody knew what I was feeling. So, they probably noticed there was something wrong. And I remember when my mom asked me, she's like, how's it going working for Dane? And I had no answer. I couldn't just say fine, I held back. But then when this all came crashing down, she didn't know how to help me. My husband didn't know how to help me. Everybody knew I had worked for church. And then one moment I wasn't, they really did not know why they were at this church one Sunday, and nobody from that church ever spoke to them again. I mean, I'm shouldering my own mountain of grief, and then I've got this, you know, layer of they're grief. My oldest son, he's like, I was happy at MPC. And they were until it was over. And I think that processing the grief with them has been valuable. I trust that God will use this in their faith walk for their good. But I wish I'd spoken up earlier, and I wish I had prepared my family for the consequences of speaking up. What happens when you tell the truth is that you might experience hardship and pain, it's worth it. But I wish I had prepared myself to give them a little bit more solace as to how to navigate, and why their world changed so much so quickly. JULIE ROYS 15:42 I mean, listening as a mother, my heart just goes out to you and to your family, for what you've been through. And it's hard enough for adults, but for children to process how this happens, and to distinguish between the people that hurt them who are symbols of the Church of God. It's just so painful to see that and it just requires so much prayer, so much care. But I mean, none of us on this call, and I'm guessing, Paul, you included, my kids have not been spared any of the effects of what I've gone through. They shoulder it with me whether or not they deserve to because they really don't deserve any of it. And yet, there's no way to insulate them from it. PAUL COUGHLIN 16:30 And a job, in a supposed Christian environment, it certainly wasn't. And I have three kids, and they were younger. And I would drive home from that job. And you just undergo stuff that is just horrendous. And I had a mantra that I would tell myself in the car – our old blue Volvo. I would say this is not my future, this is not my future, this is not the Lord's will for my life. And it helped and it helps to highlight something fundamental for targets; hope is more important than love for a beleaguered individual, and a beleaguered community. We see this often in the writings and speeches of Martin Luther King. Why did he talk about hope so much? Because if you don't have a functioning hope, that today, tomorrow, the next day year, could be better – love doesn't land well. Without hope we can't digest love very well. So, one thing that we need to do is to inculcate more hope in our spirit is to realize this is not your future. This is temporary, it's not permanent. It's one of the reasons why we recommend that people start looking for another job, because we're talking about bullying within faith centric organizations. Looking for another job has a way of bolstering your hope. And with that hope we tend to think more clearly and more proactively. JULIE ROYS 18:01 Hmm. For some reason, I'm thinking of the movie Back to the Future. I don't know if you remember that. But there's a main bully. Yeah, and the two different scenarios that the entire family experiences because the father is bullied in front of his son. In the first scenario, that impacts the son's view his father and the culture of the family, and how it changes when somebody stands up to the bully. And I think one of the things that we don't think about enough is what it communicates to our children when we don't say anything, and we allow this kind of harm to continue. I talked to somebody recently, and I have to sort of laugh because I asked her how your kids process what happened? And she sort of laughed, and she said, at first it was really difficult. She said that they kind of think their mom's badass. I was like, okay, but I mean, in the very best sense of that word, if there is, is that they see that you're worth standing up for and that there are things worth standing up for. There's things worth paying a price for. And I think it's important as Christians that we start modeling that in the way that we respond. PAUL COUGHLIN 19:19 We're told as parents, not to exasperate our children, right in Scripture? One way to exasperate your children is to show cowardice and for them to witness that. That can make them feel incredibly uncomfortable and unstable. JULIE ROYS 19:32 Good point. EMILY HYLAND 19:33 I think it too is that you know, like that parable Jesus told about a man who finds a treasure in the field, and he sells everything to get the treasure. It's almost the counter like the inverse is that what would I not give to keep my kids from being discipled in gracelessness and fear and corruption? I mean, to not have my kids in that I'm like, I will pay that price. My kids will not be breathing that air and under that thumb of oppression and hurting other people. I don't want them to grow up thinking that that's okay at church. You can, I think, latch on to the teeniest tiniest nugget of courage to say, I can do this, because other people might benefit. JULIE ROYS 20:22 In a way, you had no idea when you spoke to the elders, how that was going to play out and what the consequences were going to be. But you say that we should understand the risks but take the gamble anyway. Why do you say that? EMILY HYLAND 20:37 When I look back, I think, like you said about the matrix. I mean, there was a period, I was like, please just plug me back into the matrix. I just wanted to go back. And then there was the period where I was like, please just let me have a lobotomy so I cannot have these memories, and not know, have these relationships that you know, now are nothing. And now I think that outcome was the right outcome. To be violently removed, was how God needed to do it. He did it on my behalf, he did it on behalf of my children, I needed it. But on the behalf of other people in that congregation who had the similar experience. I think that knowing the risks, that you could be fired and disfellowshipped, and the House of Cards will come crumbling down. If you know those risks, you still stand up, and you still speak the truth. Because the speaking of the truth is important to Christians. And if you're being abused by a Christian leader, whatever the outcome is of speaking the truth, is the best possible outcome. The other consequences coming from either tolerating sin or silencing your conscience; those may seem like a preferable outcome in the short term. But they are so costly to your soul and to your spirit that to be out of an abusive and coercive church is always better than being in one. So, to know those risks, and it's painful, it could be awful, it could be the worst thing you ever go through in your whole life. But do it anyway, because you were meant to be on the outside of an abusive church. JULIE ROYS 20:42 Paul, one of the things I should say, a person and a characteristic that I didn't even know about when I started reporting is the narcissist. And yet, I have learned about the narcissist in spades right now. But I think a lot of times, we don't know that that is what we are dealing with, in these situations, because this person has a title. And this person can speak so lovingly from the stage. Talk about the narcissist, and what we need to know as the person who is on the receiving end of what they're dishing out in our dealings with them. PAUL COUGHLIN 22:58 Yeah, so the narcissistic personality or antisocial personality can be depending on the study, 10, 12, 15 percent of a given population. It doesn't sound like a lot, but sometimes that's one out of every eight people can have this characteristic. That's pretty big, particularly when you look at a congregation, right? Most bullies bully, not because they have low self-esteem. They abuse others because they have excessive self-esteem. They think they're wonderful. And then you add on top of that this component that they are somehow especially circled by God. So, you already have this overinflated ego. And now it's uber inflated, because now they are a special person in a special world putting out special information that other people have not discerned until they were born, which is pretty stunning. We need to realize that most narcissists see people in two ways, people who are either below them or a threat. And this is how they look at the world. They are constantly measuring things in order to keep themselves at the top of the hierarchy. And again, to keep themselves at the top of the hierarchy isn't for them to necessarily usher in the kingdom of heaven to play their part, it's for their kingdom. They'll talk a lot about the kingdom of heaven, but it's really about their kingdom. And I'm reminded of that, I had a dinner with Mark Driscoll and very interesting dinner. And he kept talking about how it was all about Jesus. And he kept saying it over and over. But yet, if you look at the guy's actions, it's not all about Jesus. So, they often speak one way, but they really behave in a very different way. One thing that narcissists have in common is that they have three things in common and I mentioned one of them, an inflated self-regard. They really believe they're more important than other people. They don't believe the Bible. The Bible says we're equal, they don't really, they'll say we're equal. But that's not how they truly think. They really think they're above the herd. And because of that, it makes them tremendously dangerous. They also have a great sense of entitlement; things are owed to them again, because they're wonderful. But then they have a third component. And this third component is antagonism. And I've often explained to people who have been the target of bullying, but in faith centric organizations, the best bullies harm you, but they smile on their face and a lilt in their voice. They're the most damaging ones, because they hide their antagonism. Their words are designed to humiliate, and really destroy you. But they do it in such a way that it almost seems like okay for them to do that. It goes back to that cognitive dissonance that we talked about earlier. The look on the face is kind, but the words are poison. That's all on purpose. They have been practicing that dark skill for a long time, and most of them have gotten away with it for a long time, as well. So, to the best of our abilities, know who you're really dealing with, because it's a very different response than how you would deal with someone, for example, there's conflict. There's miscommunication, there's misunderstanding. When you have those behaviors that's often mistaken for bullying behaviors. It's not, those behaviors are answered in a much different way. Like an interpersonal. Oh, I didn't know what you were saying that okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm glad we're okay. Let's move on. Bullying is a whole other category of behavior. JULIE ROYS 26:40 Hmm. Well, Emily, I am so glad that you stuck up for yourself. I'm so glad that you kept receipts. I always tell people, please keep receipts, because in my business, you don't have receipts, it's a he said, she said. It's really very difficult to make a case. But you were able to make a case. Since this ruling by the Department of Human Rights last December, I know there was another major ruling in July. Would you get us up to speed with what's going on? What happened in July with that ruling, and also, as you're looking to the future, what's coming up? EMILY HYLAND 27:18 I didn't go into this wanting to go to court. And so, I've made choices that I've allowed this to be much longer but allowed for much greater investigation by outside agencies. So going and taking my case to the Illinois Department of Human Rights; that's similar to the federal EEOC. And the Illinois Department of Rights did an investigation, they looked at the material, we had a long conversation between me and the pastors where they asked us all these questions. And then they came up with this report. So there was 10 charges. And back in December, they found that retaliation had substantial evidence. And so that charge was forwarded up to the higher agency, the Human Rights Commission. Well, the other dismissed charges, of which there were nine, I went back, looked at some of the evidence, had more evidence, put it on there, and resubmitted it through, it's similar to an appeals process, but you can get them to look at it again. And so the higher agency looked at these other nine dismissed charges, and they said, alright, we'll keep six of them stay dismissed. And some of them were just because of timing. But two additional charges were, in essence, overturned. So, they were originally dismissed, they are now considered substantially off to more going to trial. So those two are unequal pay and termination, the discharge. So, they joined up with retaliation, and it will be going to trial coming up in the next hopefully few months, maybe who knows, it just could drag on. But there's also an Illinois Department of Labor claim that took two full years to get through the review system. And that one is going to be going in front of a judge in the next three weeks, where they'll hear my evidence and then that of the churches and to look at unpaid wages. How much time was I being asked to do work outside of the hours I was ever going to get paid for? Which I think is one of those strange ways that bullying is normalized in churches, which is how we are asked to spend our time. That's our time. And I loved my church, and I wanted to do a lot for my church. But when it became a I don't get to have dinner with my family because I need to respond to an email that Dane needs turned around this very second. Looking at that evidence and saying how often that was happening with regularity is what we're going into which is that yeah, I think that was a really hard one because you want to have your church go well, but you also need those boundaries to say, Why are you asking me for work to be done on a Saturday or while I'm on vacation or on a holiday? That was one of those, I think, very covert ways of controlling and coercing me. That is so normalized because it can just be passed off as Oh, it was just off the top of his head. And you don't didn't need to do that then. I mean, of course, you could have waited until Monday. Oh, we'll see. JULIE ROYS 30:33 So, I understand the regular trial system. But I don't understand the system going through government agencies like this. What does the trial look like? And what are you hoping to get out of it? EMILY HYLAND 30:45 Well compared to say a trial in a circuit court, the Human Rights Commission have their own set of administrative judges. Just as the Department of Labor has their own administrative judges. But there's still a discovery process, there's still witnesses and depositions. And then it all goes in front of her as a trial. JULIE ROYS 31:03 So, the judge will then be making the decision, and then damages and so forth would be determined by the judge? EMILY HYLAND 31:10 Right, and the church should be saying thank you, because actually, this is by far the cheapest route, even if you're found guilty, there's no punitive damages. So, they can't slap the church and say, you should have done this, and here's a giant fine. There's no punitive damages. It's all pretty much easy calculus as to how much you were making how much of interest how much of you know, and there's limits on how much even of other damages. This was never about money. And this was about the fact that they broke the law, and they are unrepentant. And don't think they've done moments wrong for two and a half years. So, I'm excited that there's people who can read this and see like, oh, yeah, this was definitely wrong. And it's not hard to identify it. It's shocking that the people who are in the organization cannot see what is well visible to people who are reading the narrative, and also even people who are getting the highlights of it. JULIE ROYS 32:10 Well, it speaks to your character, that you've gone through this process, that you haven't sought to be punitive when you certainly could have, and instead are waiting for justice. And so, we join you in praying for truth and praying for justice. And we do pray that all of that will become clear as this moves through the system. So, Emily, and Paul, thank you so much. This has been a rich discussion. And I know it's been bought with a lot of blood, sweat and tears from you. And so, we acknowledge that. But thank you for the insights that you've gained through a very, very painful process. PAUL COUGHLIN 32:48 Thank you, Julie. Appreciate that. EMILY HYLAND 32:50 Yeah, and thank you so much for bringing attention to this because a lot of people are under the same burdens. And they can be in the same massively confused state that I was and feeling very isolated. Because that is how bullying works. It is so about isolating you from a reality that you're in and keeping you from speaking up and pushing back and being happy. JULIE ROYS 33:16 Again, thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And if you're a survivor of church hurt or abuse or you're a Christian leader who wants to learn how to protect against abuse and help survivors, I want to invite you to join me at our upcoming Restore conference. This two-day event October 13 and 14, at Judson University in Elgin, Illinois, is a very special time of healing and equipping. Joining me will be author Wade Molen, whose book we referenced in this podcast, along with Lori Anne Thompson, Sheila Wray Gregoire, Mary Demuth, and more. For more information, go to RESTORE2023.COM. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way, you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript What do you do when you're being bullied by your Christian employer? Do you take it and simply turn the other cheek? Or, do you confront it, hoping for repentance and justice? Unfortunately, workplace bullying has become a major issue—not just in secular contexts, but in the church. In this podcast, Julie explores this issue with the whistleblower who exposed Dane Ortlund, Emily Hyland, and anti-bullying expert, Paul Coughlin. Ortlund is a Chicago-area pastor and author of the best-selling book, Gentle and Lowly. But, according to Emily, he's not very gentle or lowly; he's a bully—and a misogynist. And she says, when she complained about Ortlund's behavior to the elders of Naperville Presbyterian Church, where Emily worked, they fired her. Since then, Emily has filed a complaint with the Illinois Department of Human Rights, claiming retaliation. Last December, the Department of Human Rights ruled in Emily's favor and found “substantial evidence” of retaliation by Dane and Naperville Presbyterian. In this podcast, Emily tells her story and updates us on her case. She also shares insights about responding to bullying she gained from her firsthand experience. Anti-bullying expert Paul Coughlin also contributes to the podcast, sharing advice he's gained over decades of dealing with bullies. Paul met Emily at last year's Restore Conference. And Paul has been a source of support and wisdom for Emily throughout her whistleblowing process. If you've ever had to deal with a bully—or are dealing with one now—you'll find this podcast invaluable.  Guests Emily Hyland Emily Hyland earned her bachelors in Molecular Genetics and Biotechnology before working for the Office of Naval Research in Washington, DC. While there she received a MHSA in Management & Leadership from The George Washington University. She has worked with the US Army and the Office of the Surgeon General, Accenture, GE, and across finance, manufacturing, health services, and information technology. Recently, she was the Director of Operations at Naperville Presbyterian Church in suburban Illinois. She is married and has three children.  Paul Coughlin Paul Coughlin is an author, an international speaker and the founder and president of The Protectors, which is dedicated to helping schools, organizations and communities combat bullying. His books include No More Christian Nice Guy, Raising Bully-Proof Kids and 5 Secrets Great Dads Know. Paul and his wife, Sandy, reside in central Oregon and have three teenage children. Learn more about Paul and his organization at www.theprotectors.org. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, EMILY HYLAND, PAUL COUGHLIN JULIE ROYS 00:04 What do you do when you're being bullied by your Christian employer? Do you take it and simply turn the other cheek? Or do you confront it, hoping for repentance and justice? Welcome to the Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys and joining me on this episode are Emily Hyland and Paul Coughlin. As you may remember, Emily is the whistleblower who filed a complaint with the Illinois Department of Human Rights concerning a well-known Chicago area pastor, Dane Ortlund. Ortlund is the author of the best-selling book, Gentle and Lowly. But according to Emily, he's not very gentle or lowly. He's a bully and a misogynist. And she says when she complained about Ortlund's behavior to the elders of Naperville Presbyterian Church, where Ortlund pastors, they fired her. But last December, the Department of Human Rights ruled in Emily's favor. It found substantial evidence of retaliation by Dane and Naperville Presbyterian Church in Emily's firing. And now that case is going to trial. Plus, there have been some additional charges added to that case. So, stay tuned, and you'll hear all about that. But also joining me on this podcast is Paul Coughlin. Paul is an expert on bullying and a repeat guest here on The Roys Report. He also was a speaker at last year's Restore conference. And I know from talking to Emily that she took pages of notes from Paul's talk, which was super eye opening. And it's out of that relationship and collaboration between Paul and Emily, that started at Restore, that this podcast was envisioned. I know many of you have experienced bullying in a Christian workplace. I get emails about this all the time. It's bad enough to be bullied in any workplace. But when it happens at a church or an organization that's supposed to be Christian, it's especially painful. So, I'm really looking forward to our podcast today. But before we dive in, I want to thank our sponsors, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington if you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.com. Well, again, joining me is the whistleblower in the Dane Ortlund discrimination and retaliation case, Emily Hyland. Emily was the Operations Director at Naperville Presbyterian Church in Naperville, Illinois. But in March 2021, just nine days after complaining of discrimination and bullying to church elders, Emily was abruptly fired. And she has two cases pending right now, one before the Illinois Department of Human Rights, and another with the Illinois Department of Labor. So, Emily, welcome. I'm so glad you could join us. EMILY HYLAND 03:30 Thank you, Julie. And thank you for your continued support and drawing attention to these important issues that men and women face when they're in a church and employed by one. JULIE ROYS 03:40 Well, it's my pleasure to do so. And again, also joining us is Paul Coughlin, founder of the anti-bullying group, The Protectors. He's also the author of a number of best-selling books, including No More Christian Nice Guy and Raising Bullyproof Kids. He's also worked with the Baltimore Ravens and is an expert witness. So, Paul, welcome back. It's just so great to be with you again. PAUL COUGHLIN 04:02 Great to be back. It's always wonderful. And Emily, good to hear your voice. JULIE ROYS 04:07 Well, it's so cool that the both of you actually met at the Restore conference. And I know that was before any of this became public. It's before the Illinois Department of Human Rights found substantial evidence of retaliation by the church and Dane Ortlund. But Paul, let me just start with you and ask when you first met Emily, what was your impression of her case and just what she had been through? PAUL COUGHLIN 04:33 Well, you know, you hear a lot of the same things when it comes to people who have been abused either adolescent bullying but then also bullying in the workplace, particularly faith centric areas. And honestly, what you often hear is a good amount of confusion at first. Many times, people who have this confusion going in their minds, they often may take it out on themselves as opposed to really seeing it more clearly, and in seeing it more clearly, it's not the fault of the target. It is the fault of the bully, and in many cases, the serial bully. JULIE ROYS 05:09 I hear a lot of these stories. And it's usually Wow, this is so awful. But I'm not expecting justice with the Illinois Department of Human Rights. You hardly ever get a ruling in your favor. Were you surprised when you heard that she had gotten this ruling? PAUL COUGHLIN 05:24 Very much so. I mean, Emily had a substantial case, substantial amount of evidence. And you know that evidence comes from people who, you know, obviously are willing to talk. Do you know how many people are not willing to talk? They know the score, but for a few fundamental reasons, they remain quiet, probably because they're worried that they'll be next. So, we have a substantial case, where chances are few people really spoke up. JULIE ROYS 05:50 And again, that case is pending. And towards the end of this podcast, Emily, I'm going to have you update us on the latest developments, because there are some really important ones there. But let's back up to your story, and what happened to you, Emily, for those who haven't read the news reports. I mean, it came out in December, even if you did read the report, you might be a little bit rusty on what happened. Would you give us the cliff notes of what happened to you, that led you to file this claim with the Illinois Department of Human Rights? EMILY HYLAND 06:21 Well, in some ways, it starts back before 2020 to my time at the church. I had been there since 2006, and Dane joined in 2007. So, for over a decade, we existed as two members of the same church, running into each other, same classes, same age kids. And so, when the former senior pastor left, a search committee was put together, Dane was on it. Two years go by and no senior pastor candidate. Well, then it's announced, Dane is going to be the senior pastor candidate. And by that time, I was on staff and the director of operations. And I was surprised because he hadn't been a pastor before. And I knew that the requirements for the job had been five years of pastoring experience. But I was since I knew him, I mean, he wasn't a stranger. I had no inclinations that this was something that was going to be so catastrophic. But when he started, things just weren't right. And they continued to get more wrong as the months went on. And as I started really telling myself, this isn't what you think, it's not right. I mean, maybe you're off, maybe you're just being a little petty. I had this mindset that was getting progressively more confused. And I was just talking circles to myself. And then finally, I happen to read in that February of 2021, when the Ravi Zacharias report came out. And in addition to obviously, the terrible accounts of sexual predation was the organizational aspect and how staff who raised questions who were having legitimate concerns, they weren't buying some of the early propaganda that was being put out, that those staff were being bullied. And I read those reports, and I looked at this, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, that is what is going on here. And I was shocked, because I finally had words and labels to what I was feeling, what I was experiencing. And so, I take the next maybe month, I read up a little bit more about the differences between bullying, harassment, rudeness, inconsiderateness, to really make sure that I'm linguistically precise in this matter. And it comes to a head when I call up two of the elders, and I tell them privately, I think I'm being bullied. I think it's because I'm a woman. I myself had a hard time getting those words out, because I didn't want to be bullied. And I didn't want it to be because of my gender. So, the two elders sat on this for a little bit, because Dane was out of town. And when they brought it to Dane, that next Monday, it started the floor falling out of everything, where it was very swiftly after that, then maybe 12 hours, that I was going to be fired. And it took a few days. And in the meantime, I didn't know what was happening. I just knew that this couldn't continue. This was not the right behavior. I wanted the elders to help me navigate this and to be safe in it. But that's not at all what happened. That at the end of the week, Dane fired me, and they had no elder walk me out the door. And then I was done. They follow that up by Dane telling the staff that I had been fired for cause and to not reach out to me. JULIE ROYS 09:53 In a day. Right. You lost your church of how many years? EMILY HYLAND 09:58 I had been there almost 15 years by that point. JULIE ROYS 10:02 You lost your job. You lost your church family. And you were ostracized at this point. People weren't even talking to you, correct? EMILY HYLAND 10:12 Oh, right. Yeah, it was full on disfellowshipping. I mean, I didn't know what that word was until somebody told me I was like, Ooh, yeah, that is exactly what it is. I had people who wouldn't even look at me in public. These were people I had served with for 15 years. And I didn't believe it could happen. I still I mean, my husband still cannot process that element of it, which is that he cannot believe that people who I've been with for that long would turn because I didn't do anything to them. I didn't even say anything publicly about Dane. I mean, this was two conversations with elders. And now people won't speak to me. And that really continues now. JULIE ROYS 10:50 Really, to this day? Yeah. And I want you to comment on this, Paul. But first, I'd like to read a statement by Dave Veerman, who was an elder at the time. So, he participated in the firing. A few months after it happened, clearly had a change of heart, and he resigned himself. And his statement really played a pivotal role in the Illinois Department of Human Rights in their ruling. So, I'd like to read it. I can't read the whole thing just because of the length. But some portions I think would be really instructive as to what happened and even corroborating what you're saying. So, this is what he writes. The 2021 version of the Personnel Committee met a couple of times via zoom to discuss a few relatively minor issues. Then we got word that Dane wanted to have us deal with a serious issue with a staff member. At this Zoom meeting on March 16, he said he wanted to let Emily go and made vague references about her performance and relationships with other staff. He also said that he had met with her a couple of times, so we thought she had a pretty good idea of where this was heading. Let me just pause there. Did you have any idea you were going to be fired? EMILY HYLAND 10:51 None. It was so shocking. And this was two days before Palm Sunday. I mean, it is going into the biggest week of the Church year, and to just be like, Oh, we don't need a director of operations. And we certainly don't need her to do any turnover. We don't need her to give us any of the information that she has been using in her job for eight years. I was completely surprised. JULIE ROYS 12:18 Well, and apparently Dave shared your sentiments there. He writes, this news was a shock to us because we had always been impressed with Emily and what she had done for the church. In addition, we had just had a session meeting on March 15, in which nothing had been said about her and her performance. Dane also said that Emily had gone to two elders that she felt close to, and thought would listen empathically and give wise counsel. Later, I learned that she had shared how she had been mistreated recently by Dane and was asking advice on how she should respond. And then I'm gonna skip through some of it and read. He describes that he had several meetings, then with elders and different people. Then he writes, even though I didn't know Emily's side of the story, I voted to move ahead with Dane's recommendation. Our next step was to inform the other elders. So, the three of us each took a few men to call. Then Dane set up a meeting with Emily for Friday, March 19, to inform her and he asked me to be there. At that brief meeting at 1pm, Dane fired Emily saying it was, quote, the will of the session. Unsurprisingly, Emily was quite upset, although trying to maintain her composure. I tried to just listen and not say much. She started reading the agreement. Apparently was there an NDA that they had given you? EMILY HYLAND 13:32 Yeah. On top of the details regarding severance. JULIE ROYS 13:35 Is there anything remarkable about that, or pretty standard? 13:39 I think that it was passed off as something that oh, this is just how we do things. We don't really know what's in here. But I read contracts very thoroughly and to be like, Wow, no NDA, no severance. That was how it was written, is that if I did not sign away, my legal rights, agree to confidentiality and agree to a non-disparagement, I mean, never saying anything negative about the pastors, the officers, the church or how I was treated. That was the only way I was gonna get any severance. And that's how it was written. There was no mention of why I was terminated. It wasn't for cause that was it. JULIE ROYS 14:15 I wish I could say that that was remarkable in some way. I've learned that's very unremarkable that's very similar to what I got from the Moody Bible Institute when I was fired. And so many people that I've talked to are getting NDAs now, and I'm glad that this issue is coming to the fore. That people are realizing that churches now are giving NDAs, that Christian organizations are giving them and they're about as carnal a document as there is and it is there to protect the institution; has nothing and no care and concern for the employee. As a sister in Christ or a part of the church, but I digress on my editorial comment on that one. But NDAs are just I just think they're evil. He continues to write, Emily brought up her recollection of being bullied and strongly pushed back on the decision because of the current cultural attitudes toward misogyny. Skipping ahead. Later, I learned that at 3:30pm, a staff meeting was held to announce Emily's termination. Dane said 1) Emily was fired for cause, 2) the decision was the will of the session, a session being in a Presbyterian Church sort of the equivalent of the elder board, and 3) staff should not contact her. I need to say that because of Dane's actions, a few months later, I resigned as an elder and my wife and I left the church. Not to go into many details, but at that time I heard Dane give many of the same rationalizations and explanations for his attitudes and actions in this precipitating conflict. It made me rethink my decision regarding Emily, that I had made a mistake. My agreeing to terminate Emily's employment was based almost entirely on believing the word of Dane, my pastor. I realized now that I should have looked deeper, ask more questions, and met with Emily to get her side of the story. And again, that's Dave Veerman, a former elder there at Naperville Presbyterian church. Paul, as you listen to this letter, I could see on your face, yes, we're on Zoom, by the way, folks, but I could tell that you're resonating with some things in there. But what stood out to you, as you heard that letter? PAUL COUGHLIN 16:22 That elder is a rare person, sadly. I mean, that's a rare person who's going to stick their neck out like that. But those are the people who really keep integrity on the table. So, if I had a hat on, I would take it off to that gentleman. You know, there's a lot of things that Emily has talked about. And we spoke earlier about the pattern of behavior, right, that people undergo. And when you recognize that pattern, you begin to realize you're not crazy. And one of the things that is so painful for targets is betrayal. You could hear it in Emily's voice. And she talked about it; people not talking to her, been at the same church for something like 15 years and people don't talk to you. The emotional impact of bullying in the workplace itself is swampy for many people. And then you have this being ostracized. And one thing I'd like to point out for any workplace, but especially faith centric workplaces, is that you're going to expect people to live by a certain level of integrity. And sadly, for whatever reason, it seems to be baked into the system, betrayal is coming. I'm reminded, and I've experienced that we've all licked our wounds when it comes to this behavior. I'm reminded of that wonderful movie Braveheart, where William Wallace was in. JULIE ROYS 17:45 One of my favorites, by the way. PAUL COUGHLIN 17:46 I'm not surprised. He's betrayed by his best friend. And because of that, his heart is completely taken out of the battle, he doesn't care anymore. That is what will happen to us. And so, what I would like to say to our listeners right now is that don't be surprised by the betrayal. For some reason, it is baked into the system, in most cases, most of the time. I'm reminded by that quote from Martin Luther King, who said, in the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. It's just how it goes down. It's par for the course. But I would also want to say to the people listening now who could be that support structure around others, please keep that in mind. You can play a profound role, not just in bringing fairness into the workplace and with integrity, but also in the psychological and spiritual bolstering of another person, you're that important. JULIE ROYS 18:49 And I've heard that repeatedly from people who have been victims of spiritual abuse, church abuse, retaliation, bullying. That they can handle that there's one bad apple. Like, they can handle that there's a bully pastor out there, right? They can deal with that. What they can't deal with, is that everybody got in line with that guy. Everybody stood there silently, while they were excoriated for false charges against them, whatever, and that the average person stood by and did nothing. And that's been my experience. I know, I just had a birthday recently. I don't even know if I should say this. But, you know, you get these greetings from folks that you're like, wait, you haven't talked to me since the day I was fired! In fact, you wouldn't take my phone calls. But okay. Thanks for the Happy Birthday. Appreciate that. I mean, it's one of those things that's just absolutely stunning. And this is why I think spiritual abuse and church hurt is far worse and more fundamental than other kinds of abuse. And I'm not meaning to minimize certainly all of them are horrible, horrible. But there's something about this that just goes to the core of your belief system of who you think people are. And if we don't separate out, God's people from God Himself, can really mess up and distort our image of who God is. And I think there's so many people deconstructing today, whatever you want to call it, are just trying to come to grips with what is it that was true that I believed and what was just the stuff that I accepted with it that really wasn't? And I know there's people listening who are there, I've been there, right? I'm still there to some degree, you know. PAUL COUGHLIN 20:39 And Julie, could I add to that our Lord was bullied before He was crucified. Our Lord knows exactly what it's like to experience betrayal, false accusations, to put up with the arrogance and the hubris of other people. And he can empathize with our weaknesses, he knows exactly what it was like, because the crucifixion included many of the same components of workplace bullying. So he is on our side, he knows exactly how we feel, and he is there for us. EMILY HYLAND 21:11 I thought about that over the last few years, when you take communion, and it starts with on the night he was betrayed. You can just stop right there and say, Jesus knows what it's like to be betrayed, and forsaken by everyone who you thought was for you and with you. I mean, to identify in that aspect of religious community is a thread of hope you can have because Jesus knows betrayal. JULIE ROYS 21:39 I'm so glad that you both brought that up. Because I think the ability to identify with Christ in his sufferings, if you've been through something like this, is much greater. And yet, as I've experienced it, the eye opening thing hasn't so much been that I get to suffer with him. But it makes me so much more aware of how hideous the suffering that Jesus endured. Just having tasted a small amount of what he went through, has given me just such a greater appreciation for the suffering of Christ by being able to enter into it again, in a very small way, comparatively. PAUL COUGHLIN 22:21 Julie, one thing I tried to point out for people who you've talked about, like deconstructing faith, and all three of us have gone through its process right. In my mind, one thing that I have tried to do to try to keep things clear is the difference between churchianity and Christianity. And I think when we see this suffering of Christ, of such great unfairness, I see that in the category of true Christianity, that's what it's about. What we are experiencing in faith centric organizations is what I would call churchianity. And I believe that there's obviously overlap between the two. But also, there's great distinctions. I think that's very helpful for people who have been abused so that they can start thinking of it in terms like that, because it helps them hopefully not throw the baby out with the bathwater, where it's all bad, and it's all wrong. Rather, it helps to put it in context. JULIE ROYS 22:22 Well, much of what we're going to be talking about in this podcast is really looking back and thinking, what I wish I had known then that I know now, because it is a learning process. And man, can it be a rude awakening, but an important one. It's like the matrix as the red pill or the blue pill, right? You know, those of us who have taken I don't know, is it the red pill that opens your eyes? But yeah, if you take that pill, there's no undoing it, and you see it. Let me just start with you, Emily, I know one of the things that you said, if you were to do this over again, is you would stop talking to yourself and start listening to yourself. What do you mean by that? EMILY HYLAND 23:55 Well, as I said earlier, I think I was talking myself in circles, and something would happen, and I would disconnect from my intuition. It felt wrong, but I told myself, nah, and I downplayed the harm that was coming, which I know now, like, that's not mercy. Mercy is an intentional weighing of the harm that you receive, and a decision to forgive it. To just dismiss harm, and to downplay it and pretend like that wasn't harm, that's actually not mercy. I think that, particularly to Christian circles, we think of the Spirit speaking through our intuition. For instance, if I had an intuition to go and talk to a neighbor, and invite them to a church choir service, we would say that that's the you know, Spirit leading you. But it doesn't work in the other way. Like if you have this intuition that, you know, I think something's wrong here. I think my pastor isn't behaving as a pastor should, that your mind does not really like that absolutely could be the Spirit speaking on your attentions, you're trying to tell it this Be quiet, and to stop talking. And so, I think I was trying to rationalize away a pattern of events. And now, if I could go back, I would have told myself Stop, listen to how you're feeling, and especially your sympathetic system. I mean, that is there by God's design. And when we feel fear, when we feel out of control, when we feel afraid, or wanting to run away, or pressured, and those hormones start making you feel stressed and anxious, that's not nothing. That's your body responding to something that is really happening. And that I should have been listening much more carefully to that, instead of just telling myself in my higher brain, oh, don't bother with that. It was like, No, this is merely myself trying to protect myself. And I discounted it for a very long time. Until one day, like I said, I just happened to read a description of what workplace bullying in Christian ministry looked like. And it was like my intuition just got plugged in all at once. And it was like, Whoa, now, what followed was my intuition bracket was perfect. I mean, it was remarkable how, yeah, I was right on this stuff. I was accurate. And I didn't really want to be, I didn't want to be bullied, and I didn't want to work for a bullying pastor. None of that was by design. But identifying those behaviors, identifying what was going on behind the scenes, was when that intuition reconnected. And I think that if I could have gone back, I would have listened to my intuition, and realized, yes, that is the spirit, it's saying some hard stuff that I didn't want to hear. But that silencing it was to my own detriment. JULIE ROYS 26:53 And let's also acknowledge that in a lot of these churches, we're hearing consistent message often of listen to the authorities in your church, be submissive to the authorities in your church and their leadership. Don't gossip, the meddling, we're hearing those constantly. And so, it's a cognitive dissonance that you're dealing with. And I remember we did a surprise birthday party for my husband once. And there were numerous times that he should have figured out what was going on. And he just didn't like, and afterwards, we asked him because he was so surprised. Like, how did you not get that? And he's like, I don't know. It's just like this cognitive dissonance and you throw out things that don't fit the narrative. And you just, it's funny how we do that. One of the best books out there, and it's funny that you've even said it several times. And when you're talking about this, is it something's not right. And I think Wade Mullins book, Something's Not Right, is just so so good in helping you put your finger on that. So, if you've never read this book, you have to read Something's Not Right. It's just so good. Or listen to Wade's talk at the Restore conference, where he talks about some of these things. They're all available at our YouTube channel, you can see that. And by the way, Paul, your talk on bullying is available on video on our YouTube channel. It's also available as a podcast, I think June 23, I think of last year is when we published that. So, you can go back and listen to Paul's whole talk on bullying, which is I know mind blowing for so so many people. Paul, as you hear what Emily just said about trusting that intuition, what comes to mind for you? PAUL COUGHLIN 28:31 A number of things. One thing that would have really helped Emily and so many other people is if she had at least one person standing by her side. She talked about almost like talking to herself and the cycle. We all get into that. And what really helps if we have a person, ideally, a person who is wise, but also more than wisdom, courageous. If we have someone to confide in, they can talk us out of those circular thinking, tends to spiral down, not up usually. And in that wisdom that they give us, we can find the seeds of courage as well because when we get clarity, we have a much stronger ability to move forward, hopefully in an intelligent way with both truth and grace and love. So, there are people out there who need us desperately in that situation. And I'd like to point out a distinction statistically between men and women when bullied in the workplace. Statistically, men tend to get angry and leave. Women tend to medicate and stay. And unfortunately, and to hear that the protectors what we do is we often advise find another job because it can be so damaging to the person's spirit to their soul when they undergo this work. And statistically it can be harder on women. That damage can go deeper and last longer. In fact, many of the characteristics of PTSD are the same that happens in the workplace, then people returning from war, it can be that bad. So, it's an important distinction to keep in mind. You know what I think what happened was Emily, is they picked on the wrong person, and I've told Emily this; is that chances are the people in her former workplace, the main pastor particularly, in my opinion, has probably been doing this for a long time, has probably been targeting people specific people and getting his way. And what happened is he probably targeted the wrong person; a person of a lot of backbone. You can tell Emily's very sharp, but sharpness alone won't do it. Functioning degree of courage is often necessary in order to defend yourself. And we have a wonderful success story now, I think because of Emily's character of who she is. JULIE ROYS 31:04 Well, this concludes part one of my podcast with Paul and Emily on bullying in a Christian workplace. In part two, you'll hear Emily describe more of what she wishes she knew back when she was being bullied that she knows now. And you'll hear more expert advice from Paul Coughlin, on how to deal with bullies. And also, why you may have become a target. PAUL COUGHLIN 31:25 Bullies in the workplace, particularly within the church, they use our niceness against us. It's one of the reasons why we're targeted. We don't use the word victim at the protectors very often, we prefer the word target. And here's why. You have been selected, the bully in the workplace, the bully pastor has picked on some people but not other people. Why is that? Because a bully is not looking for a fight, they want to overwhelm another person. So, they look for the nice person, they look for the person, for example, who lives by turning the other cheek. JULIE ROYS 31:57 Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Well, again, that's Paul Coughlin. And we'll be releasing part two of this podcast in just a few days. So, you want to be watching for that. Also, if you're a survivor of church hurt or abuse, or you're a Christian leader who just wants to learn more about how to protect against abuse and help survivors, I want to invite you to join me at our upcoming Restore conference. This two-day event, October 13 and 14 at Judson University in Elgin, Illinois, is a very special time of healing and equipping. Joining me will be author Wade Molen, whose book we referenced in this podcast, along with Lori Anne Thompson, Sheila Ray Gregoire, Mary Demuth, and more. For more information, go to RESTORE2023.COM. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript How is it that evangelicals, who have long extolled the virtues of the First and Second Great Awakenings, now think being “awakened” or “woke” is a bad thing? And how did we evolve from valuing sanctification—to reducing faith into a self-help project? In this podcast, author and longtime professor Karen Swallow Prior joins Julie to discuss the current crisis in the church, which isn't just about Trump or celebrity pastor scandals. As Karen explains, evangelicalism suffers from a crisis of imagination.  Somehow, over the past few decades, the pool of images, stories, and metaphors that form our imagination has become distorted and diseased. And the result has been catastrophic. We no longer think or imagine in biblical ways. For example, instead of thinking of the kingdom of heaven as something that advances as we love, serve, and sacrifice for our fellow man, we've adopted an empire mentality. In this system, one wins by dominating his fellow man and putting the right people in office. It's a far cry from the words of Jesus: The last will be first. To get out of this crisis, we need to reform our imagination—radically. But to do that, we first need to understand how we got here, Karen explains. And only then, can we chart a way forward. Guests Karen Swallow Prior Karen Swallow Prior (PhD, SUNY Buffalo) is a reader, writer, and longtime professor. She is the author of several best-selling books including On Reading Well, Booked: Literature in the Soul of Me and Fierce Convictions: The Extraordinary Life of Hannah More—Poet, Reformer, Abolitionist. Prior has written for Christianity Today, the Atlantic, the Washington Post, First Things, Vox, and Religion News Service. Show Transcript SPEAKERS KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS  00:04 How is it that evangelicals who have long extolled the virtues of the first and second great awakenings now think being awakened or woke is a bad thing? And why have testimonies degenerated into a contest over who has the most dramatic story? And how do we evolve from valuing sanctification to reducing faith into a self-help project? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys, and today I'm going to be talking about the evangelical imagination with Karen Swallow Prior. Karen has just written a book by that name. And as she explains in her book, our current crisis isn't just about Trump or celebrity pastor scandals. Evangelicalism is suffering from a crisis of the imagination. Somehow over the past few decades, the pool of images, stories and metaphors, the form our imagination has become distorted and diseased. And the result has been catastrophic. We no longer think or imagine in biblical ways. For example, instead of thinking about the kingdom of heaven as something that advances as we love and serve and sacrifice for our fellow man, we've adopted an empire mentality where we win by dominating our fellow man, by putting the right people in office, by winning an actual culture war, by being first not last. And so, if we want to navigate out of this crisis, we need to reform our imagination. But to do that, we need to understand our history and how we got here. And Karen has done a masterful job of researching and explaining that development. So, I'm very much looking forward to our discussion today. But before we dive in, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well, joining me now is Karen Swallow Prior, a former longtime English professor at Liberty University, and until quite recently, she was a research professor of English Christianity and culture at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Now she's a full-time writer and the author of several fantastic books including her latest, The Evangelical Imagination: How Stories and Metaphors Created a Culture in Crisis. Karen also writes a monthly column for Religion News Service, is a contributing editor for Comment, a founding member of the Pelican Project and a senior fellow at the L. Russ Bush Center for Faith and Culture. And last but not least, she and her husband Roy live on a 100-year-old homestead in central Virginia, with two dogs, Eva the Diva, and Ruby. If you follow her , and I'm just thrilled to have you. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  03:45 And so great to be talking with you, Julie, thank you. JULIE ROYS  03:48 I am going to start this podcast with a little bit of a confession. Normally just because of my schedule, when I come to do a podcast and I come to read the book, it's often the day or two before the actual podcast and I'm rushing through this book to get through it. And true to form, I did that with your book. Now that I've read it, I am really dying to go back and to read it again. And to sit down I'm even thinking, I got some friends like we should do a book club and do this book because every chapter is so so rich. And so, I'm just thanking you for writing this book and for the richness in it. And you bring so much of yourself into it. It's just quintessential Karen Swallow Prior because of all of the literary illusions that you have and just fantastically done. So, thank you. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  04:42 Thank you. I have had a few interviewers either confess or read schedule. I think a lot of Christian books are fast reads. And so, I think a lot of people picked it up and just thought they could breeze through it, and I don't maybe if I were a better writer, I would write in a breezier style,, but you're not the only one to say it's you know, it's rich and taken time and a lot of thought. JULIE ROYS  05:05 absolutely true. And with most books, when I go through them in two or three hours, I feel like I'm done. Your book I didn't get through in two or three hours, it took me much more than that. But at the same time, I was just like, Man, this is important stuff that we need to really meditate on. And we really need to think about. And this idea of writing about the imagination. I love that because I think the imagination is something that so often, especially in evangelicalism, right, because we're so reason focus, we think of the imagination as something that's fiction, something that's not real. And we don't realize the extent to which the imagination and the stories, this pool of ideas and thought, how that really impacts the way we act, the way that we think, the way we perceive the future, all of that. And you so beautifully wove that into this book. I remember from when I was homeschooling my kids, we used to talk about the imagination as a garden, and how the weeds can take over. And I think in essence, that's a lot of what you're saying in this book, there's a lot of weeds that have gotten into our imagination, and yet, we're not even cognizant of them. So first, let me just ask you, why did you decide to write this book at this time? KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  06:26 For me, it takes a long time to write a book. And maybe that's why it takes so long to read. So, I started imagining this book, probably 2018 or 2019. But it really arose or teaching Victorian literature, and my college students are primarily evangelical, grew up in evangelical subculture, and a lot of what we would  read in the Victorian age. Now, the Victorian age is the century after the rise of evangelicalism, but it sort of embodies the great influence of evangelicalism. And so, we would read this literature that talked about purity culture, and the sexual double standard that you know, the one standard for women, and another one much lower for men, family values, the separate spheres for men and women, all of those things in this wonderful literature that I love. And my students would often say, wait a minute, this sounds like the idea I was raised with, or this sounds like what I was taught, you know, in the 20th century. So, we would have these discussions, these conversations. Well, what is a truly biblical view of purity of family of men and women, and what's really just Victorian? We started separating those two threads in the classroom with my students who had largely been brought up in evangelical subculture was the beginning of the book. And, you know, so it's been a few years where I've been able to think about this, find other examples. And of course, a lot has been going on in the culture outside the classroom that helped me to see this as not just an intellectual exercise in the classroom, but really part of the crisis that our movement is facing right now. JULIE ROYS  08:05 Isn't that interesting that the Victorian era would be like our current era? I don't think most people would even fathom that, that's true. And even so many of the hip and, you know, cutting edge ministries we have today, would not recognize how their roots are actually in some of these centuries, way before them, and we're going to delve into that. But before we do, since we're talking about the evangelical imagination, let's start with a definition of evangelicalism because this is something that has morphed with time and means different things to different people. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  08:43 Absolutely. And of course, even the term has many different meanings and understandings, as it might have had over the years, it's really been kind of hijacked and catapulted into headlines and political polls and surveys. And so, it's just become even more confused and contested. And so, I realized that I am evangelical, so I know this, the problem surrounding the term and in many people's desire to reject it or replace it or denounce it. So I drew on a number of definitions that are given by scholars and the primary one that I think everyone either agrees with or differs with a little bit is that of the church historian David Bebbington as the Bebbington quadrilateral, and Bebbington basically looks at the evangelical movement from the 18th century on and says that, regardless of the denomination or the country, or the century, evangelicals are defined by their emphasis on the conversion experience, the centrality of the Bible or their lives as God's authoritative word, the centrality of Christ's crucifixion, and His sacrifice for our sins. And also, a lot of people don't maybe realize this but an activist spirit like evangelicals have always been activists of some kind; missions in the 19th century, social justice in the 21st, you know. I mean, across the board left or right evangelicals are defined by all four of these things, but including they all come together, activists spirit. JULIE ROYS  10:16 And that activism has its outworking very different in each age, which you highlight in a number of your chapters. But each one of your chapters sort of focuses on a word or a concept that captures an aspect of the evangelical imagination. And then you talk about this development of the concept about what's good and true about the concept within evangelicalism, but also what may be a perversion and that's what I think is so eye opening. Let's start with just this concept of awakening, your second chapter, because your first chapter sort of outlines what the imagination is, which I think was awesome. But explain how awakening and this idea of being awakened, is central to evangelicalism throughout the history and development of the movement. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  11:10 My expertise is in British Literature, the 18th and 19th century. So, I'll say that's the beginning, but most people are more familiar with American history and religious history, even if we're not experts. And we all know about the Great Awakenings, right? I mean, the Evangelical revival in America in the 18th century, it was called the Great Awakening, and then there are ones after that. So right away, we know that this whole idea of awakening is central to the evangelical movement. It also happens to be a very powerful and prevalent symbol in literature, throughout all time, but also during this period. So that is an area where I was able to make a connection, like why awakening and how many ways is that concept, that idea that symbols show up, and we have the Great Awakening in America. But the other thing that really defines America is the American Dream, which of course, you know, sleeping, dreaming, waking, these are all connected. And so that's one of the points that I make in this chapter and a couple places in the book is how the American Dream, which was so much part of America's founding has been part not just of American history, but also of evangelical history, just because of the way our nation was founded. And so, people talk about whether or not you know, there's Christian nation and what that means or doesn't mean. Even the whole concept of the American dream, and that sort of consumerist materialists prosperity idea is interwoven not only with American history, but evangelical history. JULIE ROYS  12:49 And of course, the American Dream is in the New Testament. Not. Not close. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  12:57 But Make America Great is there. JULIE ROYS  12:59 Oh, yeah, exactly. And this is the issue that you're getting at this sort of sifting between, you know, what is real and true to Christianity. Obviously, the idea of being awakened spiritually, I mean, evangelicalism grew out of what had become a very dry and dead and wrote Christian church culture, and yet people awakening some of them pastors awakening, which is beautiful, to the truth of a relationship with Jesus who is the truth. Ironically, I thought that the word woke, right. Something that's based on being awakened, has now become within a lot of evangelical circles, a pejorative term, and yet, again, it's our roots. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  13:47 It's our it's our roots. Right? And, and it is, you know, I talked about this in the book, and there's so many more things I could have said, but I wanted to trace that history. That's, you know, the way that the African American community use the word woke early in the 20th century, is really similar to the way that we were using it back in the 18th century. Now woke is centered in Yes, social justice and being awakened to oppression. But that's what the Great Awakening is too, is being awakened to the spiritual oppression that we undergo when we do not have that relationship in Jesus Christ, or we are denying the work of the Holy Spirit. And so, there's a direct connection there. And, again, going back to what I said about how evangelicalism has always been defined by an activist spirit. So this whole idea of being woke and having your conscience gripped by things that are wrong in our culture, whether systemically or individually, or there is sin matters or social matters. Like that is part of our heritage and to use that variation of the word woke as an insult or a pejorative or just an outright dismissal for everything that you disagree with, does violence not only to the language but does violence to our heritage as evangelicals and just violence to the people who are using that term to express this urgent and important felt need. JULIE ROYS  15:12 So, to the person who's trying to keep what is good, throw out what is bad when it comes to this most central concept of being awakened spiritually, what would you say? KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  15:23 I would say that, you know, this is one reason why I'm still an evangelical is because evangelicalism arose in the modern age. And an important feature of the modern age is the individual [ ] the individual soul that need for individual salvation and conversion. And it's all centered on the conscience. Now, I also happen to be not just evangelical Baptist. And for us, soul autonomy is really important, like the idea that we are each responsible and accountable as individuals, our own individual souls before God. And so that idea of the individual conscience is central to the evangelical movement. And so being awakened, not only spiritually, but also awakened just to our relationship in this world with one another and how we treat one another. It's just to me, it's central to what it means to be an evangelical. JULIE ROYS  16:26 So, A related term, which you already mentioned, is conversion. I think if you've grown up in evangelicalism, you've heard of this idea of easy believe ism. I remember that my mother moved from the north to the south, and she did go to a Baptist church in the south. They had a horrible tragedy where a teenage boy shot his family, killed all of them. And then he turned the gun on himself. And I remember my mother was so shocked that the pastor got up and said, Well, we know that the shooter was a Christian, because he came forward and gave his life to Christ. You know, when he was I forget what age and she was just appalled by this, that that was given as something to sooth the community, supposedly. I mean, she felt like how can we know this man that just went on a murderous rampage? Of course, we don't know, if he had mental illness, whatever, but  that kind of statement, which, again, it takes that conversion experience into almost 100% iron clad, you're going to heaven, I think there's been some perversion of what a conversion really means. And you talk about the history and development of this term, if you would, give us a little bit of the background and how this has evolved over time. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  17:45 You know, the Evangelical revival in England arose at a time when, you know, a couple of centuries after the Reformation took place, and there was an established church in England, a state church, a government Church, which meant that if you were born as a citizen in England, that meant that you were a Christian, officially. So, it just bred of nominal Christianity, but this is what the Evangelical revival is like the Wesley's when they were young men, John and Charles Wesley who helped begin this who were Anglicans, studying for the ministry. They felt something was lacking, and then had that famous warming of the heart experience, and which we would call it being born again, or individual conversion. And so, this revival in England and this awakening in America centered on this idea that you're not a Christian just because you are born into a Christian family or confirmed or baptized as an infant in a Christian church, but you must be born again, you must have an individual salvation experience. And, again, I'm evangelical, I believe that. But as you pointed out, just because someone goes forward, or just because someone fills out a card or raises their hand, that in itself does not mean that they were converted. And that is why the Bible does say, not all who say Lord, Lord will be saved. And that is also why the Bible gives us evidence, such as fruit of the Spirit, to show that someone that exhibits godliness and Christ likeness and doesn't mean that the converted don't sin. Would that it were so but it's not. But again, this good, important biblical idea becomes distorted when all of the emphasis is on going forward, getting the hands raised, filling out the cards, counting the number of people who've made decisions for Christ, and then letting them off and go without any follow up or discipleship, or kinds of things that can't be measured as easily, which are actually so much more important. JULIE ROYS  19:47 But it sure makes a good newsletter. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  19:49 Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it does. And that's the sad part about it. It often becomes a fundraising gimmick. How many people have come forward or whatever. And sometimes with good intentions, but I think it has been perverted. You talk about an 18th century novel in this chapter, which I had never heard about called Pamela. Talk about that book and how it sort of typifies the issue. Yeah. Non one ever reads or talks about Pamela unless they take an odd course, from me or some other 18th century novel professor. It's considered widely is like the first English novel. It's so rooted in all of evangelical history during this time, because it's a story of, you know, a young servant girl whose harasser is attempting to seduce her and harass her and she's holding on to her virtue. He actually tries to sexually assault her twice. If anyone wants to read it, spoiler alert. And the novel shows that through her good behavior, she tames him and he's inverted. You know, that's obviously not a good idea to follow that model. And she marries him. Yes, I think we still have those dynamics. But the reason I include that novel is because the story doesn't end when they get married. The story ends much later, when this horrible husband, this former Reagan player has had some kind of conversion experience and grows and matures. But the novel was widely criticized and mocked and satirize, because it was showing this like cheap grace kind of dynamic that we just talked about, and that this guy can just be converted, and everything  is instantly better. And so, it's an interesting novel from a literary perspective. But it's also interesting because it parallels a lot of what evangelicals were thinking and teaching and modeling, but it shows it in such an access that we should stop and question and say many this is not how to evangelize and convert people. JULIE ROYS  21:53 A related concept is the idea of testimony and giving your testimony. And again, I'm thinking about my childhood. So, I'm one of those that went forward when I was six years old, at a camp meeting. don't really remember what was preached. But I remember like when he said, Do you want to come forward and accept Jesus? I was like, Oh, I've heard about Jesus my whole life. Of course, I do. You know. And so, I did go forward. I actually remember it very vividly. Because for the next two weeks, everybody I met, my parents would be like, oh tell them your testimony. But it was good for me because it solidified in me that experience and the importance of it. A lot of people don't have necessarily that one time testimony. I know my sister, one of the most beautiful Christians I know on the planet, she can't point to a time, and I think in your book you talk about you can kind of point to a time period, right? But not really a time. So, this can be a good thing, the testimony. You talked about testimony envy, which I thought was a great phrase. How can this be twisted, and how has it been twisted within evangelicalism? KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  23:03 So, testimony and story  are just a central aspect of what it means to be human and also to what it means to be a Christian. We are to be prepared to give a defense to give our testimonies to tell our story. And yet, we also have to examine sort of the flip side, and as you said,  if we don't remember that particular time and place and we can't tell that story because we, like in my case, and probably your sisters, were so young. But even John Bunyan, as I show in the book, has a really long Spiritual Autobiography. And you keep wondering, okay is this the moment is this the moment he keeps having these spiritual epiphanies or awakenings. And Jonathan Edwards himself says, sometimes people don't know and that's okay. I'm paraphrasing him, obviously. So, it's wonderful to have a testimony. But that testimony envy that I talked about, and you mentioned, can lead people to feeling as though if they don't have a testimony, something is wrong. Or we'd come to learn that someone who shared a testimony, embellished it. And so again, as I show throughout this whole book with all of these beautiful, wonderful concepts and ideas that are rooted in the Bible, but also become part of our imagination, our social imaginary, if they get distorted or twisted, then we take something that is good and true, and turn it into something that is not that; our salvation testimony is the most important one, but also our sanctification, our growth, the way God works, and as well as all of those are testimonies. JULIE ROYS  24:36 I couldn't help but think of Michael Warnke when I was reading that chapter. If you remember, he was in the 80s had this very dramatic testimony of being converted from being a Satanist to Christ, and he would tell the stories became an evangelist. Well, it turned out it was all bunk. He had concocted the whole thing; he had made it up. And the horrible thing is It just takes one fraud, for about 100 real testimonies and the truth for a lot of people, the Christian life is day by day living in the ordinary. And these days, I'm much more impressed by the person who's not so on fire outwardly, but just is living that quiet life of obedience to Christ, not bringing attention to himself or herself, and just following the Lord. And I think we forget how ordinary even Jesus was right? You know, some of them have dramatics; Saul has a dramatic testimony. But a lot of them it was just, follow me., and they did. The evangelical, or the Protestant work ethic, which is another concept that you talked about. And that's something that was drilled into me, in fact, there wouldn't be a Roy Report if I didn't have a Protestant work ethic. Yep. Before reading your book, I don't think I'd ever really thought about how this work ethic developed out of sort of an age of improvement, and how it even might be contributing to our self-help movement today. Would you explain how these things are related? KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  26:09 Yeah, that was a fun chapter, because I too, am a product of the Protestant work ethic, and it's made me who I am today. And so that is good. But there's this sort of, off branch of that work ethic, which is improvement, even the idea of a self-improvement or an improvement to your life was something that people for thousands of years, didn't imagine. Because for thousands of years, people's lives, generation after generation after generation, looks the same. You were trying to survive trying to herd your sheep and raise your children, and nothing much changed. So, improvement itself is a very modern idea. I'm for improvement too, but it goes too far when we improve just for improvement sake, or when it breeds lack of contentment, or we often don't look at what we lose or sacrifice by trying to make an improvement. If we go to the supermarket, we see these packages of food and products that say new and improved. And when you read the fine print, it's really just the labels changed or something. It's not even necessarily anything substantial that is improved. But we love improvements so much that the marketing and the research that goes into it shows us that it works to have that little label on it, even if we don't know what the improvement was. And of course, that carries over into modern evangelicalism when we are formed and shaped and motivated by self-improvement and influencers. And these aren't all bad. But we're the Christian, we are supposed to undergo growth and sanctification, which is really not quite the same thing as improvement. JULIE ROYS  27:50 The focus of it is so different. I mean, it almost becomes like a Babel thing, like I've built this, I've done this, instead of, you know, sanctification, the point of it is to become like Christ. Why? So that we can glorify Him. Because the chief end of man is to glorify God, and we miss that. We think the chief end of man, actually, we think the chief end of religion is to make our life better, so we can live our best life now. I mean, we've just so fundamentally perverted it. And this is why I think, when I hear so many people deconstructing, and I think we all should, I don't know if I like that word. You want to call it sifting, whatever. But we should be looking at what is it that we have imbibed? And what is it that we're really rejecting? I'm very grateful that for me, the stories, and the ideas that I feel like inform me, a lot of them are centuries old, because they've grown up in our family and in our church. But if you came to the Lord in this generation, and this is all you know, is this iteration of evangelicalism, I can see why people hate it. I hate a lot of it too, because it has nothing to do with the gospel, just nothing. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  29:01 There are so many layers that need to be peeled back. And so many things that need to be examined under the surface, but we have to look at them, so we know what to throw out and what to keep. And that's what I'm trying to demonstrate with this book. JULIE ROYS  29:15 So, you devote an entire chapter to sentimentalism which I think highlight a major, major tension in evangelicalism. I mean, on one hand, we are products of the Enlightenment, and I think you really explain that in a really good way. We love reason. I think when you look at the Sunday service in most churches, you can see that –  what's the highlight? It's the sermon, right? It's the word. That can be a good thing. I will say it's one of the things I liked about the years that we spent at an  Anglican Church is that the highlight was actually the table. It was the Eucharist which is a much more experiential though not experiential in the sense of rooted in your subjective experience, but in coming to the table that Christ has called us to do every week. And so, I love that, but again, you've got this reason on one hand, and yet on the other hand, as you describe, we've been influenced by something called the cult of sensibility, which emphasizes more feeling and emotion. And you use the book Sense and Sensibility, which doesn't necessarily mean what we would think it means today so that that has changed over time. But this is kind of a new idea to me. And then how this sensibility has sort of morphed into the sentimentalism that we find so commonly in churches today. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  30:30 Yeah, so Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility is a good touchstone for thinking about this idea, because most people are at least familiar with the title, if not the book. And if you're at all familiar with the book, or even the movie, you know, that like sense represents Eleanor and her rational, reasonable, non-emotional approach to life and Mary Anne represents sensibility, which is that romantic emotional approach. And Austen was actually satirizing just before Austin's lifetime was called the cult of sensibility, which tried to show that moral virtue is demonstrated by how sensitive you are to art and literature and opera and theatre, and not necessarily the real people suffering around you, perhaps, but at least you may respond emotionally with your heart to something that you see. And that is the mark of virtue. And Austin was making fun of them. But there was a short-lived movement. But it did slowly morph into sentimentalism, which is basically emphasizing emotion for the sake of emotion. As you said, we're both Protestants; we've made that clear. We're both maybe privilege word and reason and rationality a little bit more. So, it's not to say that we should ignore or downplay the emotional aspect of our humanity. It's not to say that empathy is a sin or anything like that. Because we are both emotional and rational creatures, and that those things should be in balance. But what sentimentalism does is it just emphasizes the emotional, and more specifically, when I talk about like Christian and evangelical art, it's emphasizing the sort of cheap, easy emotion like the easy way of feeling sad or happy, if you watch like a, you know, Hallmark or Lifetime movie. It just plays on our emotions, or a Budweiser beer commercial with puppies and horses, plays on our emotions, right? Those are cheap, easy ways to draw out our emotions that ignore sort of the hard realities or the sacrifice that good art, or spiritual redemption requires. So we live in a culture that has emphasized sort of the cheap and easy emotional shortcut. Real truth and sacrifice and redemption as well as good art requires sacrifice, and bringing into balance, truth, goodness, and beauty, which is just not the same thing as sentimentality. JULIE ROYS  32:59 I kept thinking of the verses where the Lord says, These people worship Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. I see it in the church today. I mean, people that I report on, and I know so much about the sin that they're involved in, and yet I'll see them in their services, you know, projected on YouTube, acting so spiritual and crying and during the worship, and it's repulsive, I think it has become manipulative, it has become where we leave no room for the moving of the Holy Spirit in our highly programmed services. And where it's excesses of emotion that's in the church. And again, over the centuries, the church has been very concerned about this, and has thought deeply about the place of worship and emotion. And sometimes airing way too far to cutting off emotion side, but at the same time, wanting it to be real. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  33:59 Yeah, I mean, emotions are an essential part of what it means to be human. But if we confuse emotion with worship, I mean, we can worship God, and we want to feel what we are saying and expressing with our worship. But some of us are just more rational, some are more emotional. And the goal as individuals, and as a church is to have them in balance, not go from one extreme to the other. JULIE ROYS  34:21 For time sake, we're gonna have to skip over several chapters of your book, although I will just say, I would really encourage people to get the book. And by the way, if you get the book right now, it's something that we're offering as a premium to all the donors to The Roys Report. So you can get Karen's book, which thanks to some intervention that you did on your part, because this is a hardcover book. It's an expensive book, but you helped us get it at a really reasonable price, so we can offer it to anybody who gives a donation to The Roys Report in this month, we will send you a copy of Karen's book, which again, fantastic book. You just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  35:03 And if I can just throw in one word. It's not only a hardcover book, but this is also something I'm so proud of, because I negotiated it. It includes a number of beautiful color plates of paintings and artwork that I either talk about in the book or that illustrate the things I'm talking about. And so, I think books should be beautiful. And I think this one is. JULIE ROYS  35:24 Oh, it's gorgeous. So, thank you for helping us get that cheaper than we deserve. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  35:31 I'm so glad I was able to do that. JULIE ROYS  35:33 So, the last three chapters, which I think are absolutely crucial, chapter nine, you explore the concept of empire, and how evangelicalism, maybe without meaning to but it is just integral to this idea of British imperialism, which again, the sun never set on the British Empire, right? I mean, talk about the pride involved in that. But would you describe how evangelicalism, even the modern mission movement has become so married to Empire and how we can extricate ourselves from that. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  36:08 If anyone knows anything about me and my work, you know that I love cultural engagement, right? I love to engage all of the culture, art,  literature, think about it as a Christian, applied biblical worldview. And the fact is, even with the negative things that I have to say, especially in this chapter, this is sort of the darkest, heaviest chapter. I think. My whole point is that we are creatures of culture, no matter what Christians we're talking about the ones that the first century, the ones of the 30th century should the Lord tarry. All Christians will be in a culture, they will be influenced by their culture, hopefully they will influence their culture. So, what I'm talking about in this book of, you know, a 300-year slice of very like Western British American evangelicalism and the problems that we have to face, all Christians are going to have to face that entanglement with culture. So that's just how it is. And so, I'm not saying anything in particular, that is different. Where us as modern evangelicals as for Christians than any other place. But Empire happens to be an area in which it is the time and the place and the context in which evangelicalism was great before. The evangelical movement arose as the British Empire was arising. Evangelical influence and power reached its peak when the British Empire was peaking. So, the great work the evangelicals wanted to do as missionaries was inextricably tied to the work that British Empire wanted to do in colonizing and conquering around the globe. And so even if it's just barely coincidence, which it's more than that, there was effort and human intention and agency and mixed motives and all that involved, but even just the mere coincidence of the movement, and the Empire, arising at the same time means that evangelicalism was born by notions of Empire. And so, we might not go out as evangelicals and take lands and oppress people. We might we might not, but we don't have to do that to see the influence of empire in our evangelical culture today whether it's what our friend, Skye Jehani, has coined the evangelical industrial complex, or mega churches or big conferences, or coalition. All those things that I'm part of, too. So, I'm not standing at the outside and pointing. What I'm asking and examining saying, has this imperialist mindset affected us? Well, it has, it's in our DNA. And so that empire exists when we try to dominate our neighbors rather than loving them. JULIE ROYS  38:52 I will say, just to balance a little bit with that there was an article in Christianity Today several years ago that talked about colonialism and the missionaries and found that a lot of missionaries, actually the majority of them, were much more on the side of the Indigenous people and fighting for their rights than they were the colonial powers. So, I think there is some balance to that. But when I read this, the thing that I thought of so much, and this is where I've probably experienced so much change myself, is just the triumphalism within evangelicalism, and sometimes it's just really trite that we just always have the Cinderella story. It's in our brain and in essence, Christianity is a Cinderella story. I mean, Jesus did rise from the dead, we are eventually going to see heaven, but the in between, we forget the cross and the suffering and all of that, and that's a part of what it means to be Christian. And now I think, too, I've become much more aware of how I'm a part of the white dominant culture. And it's just like we're talking about the imagination that the soup that you swim, and you don't even realize it. But now that I'm beginning to realize it, I can see it more and more and more and in the ways that Christianity around the globe, I mean, quite frankly, Western Christianity is shrinking. The global south is growing and growing by leaps and bounds, and we're going to be, we are learning from them. And we need to learn much more and stop thinking that we have the corner on the way to do things when we need to admit that they do. This is not a white man's religion. This is, you know, something that was started by a Jewish dark-skinned man. And so, we need to be aware of that.  Then your next chapter on reformation reminded me of the motto of The Roys Report, which is reporting the truth, restoring the church. It's central to our again imagination as evangelicals to reform to be restored. I mean, that's huge. And yet we have seen so much perversion of the real. And I know there's people listening right now who are so disillusioned because of what they've seen in the church. How do we reform something that has been so fundamentally distorted? KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  41:21 That's a big question. But I think some of the answer is, it's so simple, it's listening to one another, as you said, like listening to the people outside of our circles, who have different stories, different experiences. It's not turning away, You  model that. It's not turning away from the sin that's in front of us, or the sin that's beneath the surface that we sort of sense we would rather not know about. It's paying attention to the red flags, it's being open, honest, supporting those who are courageous enough to come forward, and just opening our eyes. And I feel like for me, that's where I am in my life. And so, this book, in some ways, is sort of my confession, because it's just me demonstrating what I'm going through, because I had a very good for the most part experience within the evangelical world, most of my life, but others . . . . And so, I don't feel like I'm saying anything in here that is new. It's new to me, perhaps, but I can hear other people saying, Yeah, well, I told you so a long time ago, or we've been saying this a long time. And so, I humbly respect that and admit that, and yet, we had this Protestant Reformation 500 years ago, which we've already identified with. And yet part of what that movement said is like, always reform is not just one reformation. And the way that I frame it in the book is that maybe that first big reformation was over doctrine and cleaning up the doctrine and clarifying that in the church, and maybe in the next 500 years is about practice. JULIE ROYS  43:01 For too long, we have focused almost exclusively on orthodoxy, you know, right belief. And there's been so little emphasis on orthopraxy, which is right behavior. And we have people who are preaching on huge platforms with the most pristine doctrine you can imagine and, you know, passing judgment on those who don't have as good a doctrine, and yet their lives. And I'm so glad you said fruit of the Spirit when you were talking about fruit because that's what reflects whether we're filled by the Holy Spirit, not by how many people are listening to our sermons or our podcasts or sitting in the pews. It is about Christ likeness. Well, lastly, let's talk about the Rapture. This has been the topic of so many evangelical books and movies from the Late Great Planet Earth to the Left Behind series. And the rapture, again, is something that's just seared into the evangelical imagination, and yet a literal rapture, which, at least in the tradition I grew up in, was very much assumed. Now, a lot of evangelicals are saying, well, maybe it's not exactly how we had envisioned it. Regardless, our obsession with the rapture, I think sometimes we miss the point. And you talk about that. What do you think about the Rapture now, as you reflect on it? What's it about, and what is God really asking us to think about His Second Coming? KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  44:33 Yeah, I mean, for me, I have some lighthearted fun with this, because what's not fun talking about the Rapture and chick tracks and left behind and although you know, the trauma of that. This topic does illustrate what I'm trying to do throughout the whole book, because I grew up thinking that this interpretation of a physical literal rapture. I didn't know that was an interpretation, right? And I also didn't know it was an interpretation that arose in the 19th century. I just thought it was what all Christians believed. And so, it was a shocking revelation when I learned that not all Christians have this interpretation. And so that's not the only thing that we could say about having interpretations. And so, we need to examine not only our assumption, but examine our interpretive communities, because we interpret in community. And so, we are shaped by the way that our communities read Scripture emphasize scripture, which parts they tend to quote in the sermons and which ones never get preached about. And so, rapture is just, you know, one sort of dramatic example of that. And I say in the book, I haven't studied this on my own, I'm not a theologian in this area, I don't even really care what it means because I was just so tired of it. But I do know that whether the rapture is physical and literal or not, what the word means refers to us being caught up in Christ, right. And so all of the interpretations of that phrase are important, especially the one in which we are caught up with him now. Because we see him and are so filled with the spirit that we reflect Him and nothing else is as important. As Paul said, all this world is dung. We only want Christ. And that's what it means to be caught up in him. And so that's the most important interpretation. And that's kind of the note that I closed the book on is just to say, let's just imagine that. JULIE ROYS  46:32 Let me read that because I think you put it so well, and it really moved me. So, I just want to read this part of your book. The rapture is assuredly this. We who are in Christ will be caught up with him, caught up in him. To be caught up with Christ in Christ is to be filled with a love not only powerful enough to move the sun and the stars, but powerful enough to love that person we would otherwise despise. It is to love the kingdom of God more than the kingdoms of this world. It is to count all human empires as dirt, all our petty platforms and performances, as dung. To be caught up in Christ is to be enraptured by him, to be beholden to him, to be taken by him to be, as 17th century poet John Donne puts it, ravished by him. Not just in the sky, and on some future day, but here, and now. Just imagine it. I love that. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  47:29 Thank you. I worked hard on that ending. JULIE ROYS  47:32 I'm sure you did. And if that captured our imagination, as Christians as evangelicals, if we were more caught up in Jesus, and in this picture of oneness with him, instead of in the political empires that we think we have to gain or in the huge mega churches we think we have to build. If it really was about Jesus, again, what a huge difference that would make. And if anything, I hope people take away from your book, it is that; that this needs to be about Jesus and not about us and our imaginations need to be filled with what's good and true and beautiful. And that will change the world. So, thank you. KAREN SWALLOW PRIOR  48:17 Thanks, Julie. JULIE ROYS  48:19 Well, again, thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to recording the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And as I mentioned earlier, if you'd like a copy of Karen's book, The Evangelical Imagination, we're giving them as a thank you to anyone who gives a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month. So, if you appreciate these podcasts, would you please consider giving to support our work? As I've said before, we don't have any big donors or advertising, we simply have you, the people who care about the integrity of the church and the protection of the most vulnerable. To donate and get a copy of The Evangelical Imagination, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATED. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript Victims of adult clergy sexual abuse often report that their first wound—the abuse itself—was awful. But it wasn't as bad as the second wound: the response by the church to their abuse.  This is precisely what Moriah Smothers and her husband, Jack, describe in a follow-up conversation to our initial podcast interview about the alleged abuse Moriah received at the hands of her former pastor, Patrick Garcia. In this podcast, Moriah tells of the shame and rejection she experienced from other church members when her abuse was mislabeled an “affair.” Some called her “Judas.” Others told her the devil had got the upper hand. The backlash left both Moriah and Jack devastated and confused.  Yet after a year of extreme pain and brokenness, Moriah heard an earlier edition of The Roys Report podcast with another victim of adult clergy sexual abuse. She said it led her to an epiphany and significant healing.  It also prompted Jack and Moriah to confront leaders at their former church—The Hills Church in Evansville, Ind.—for how they handled Moriah's abuse. The couple also reached out to Bob Russell, pastor emeritus of one of the largest churches in America, who is currently re-platforming Patrick Garcia.   You'll hear how Russell and the Hills Church responded. And you'll hear Moriah and Jack's impassioned plea for the church and other Christian institutions to start dealing with clergy sexual abuse in an appropriate way. Guests Dr. Moriah Smothers Dr. Moriah Smothers is an Associate Professor of Teacher Education and a former elementary special education teacher. She is also a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA). Dr. Jack Smothers is a Professor of Management and a secondary survivor. Their heart is to help other ACSA survivors find healing and community. They are passionate about educating church leaders to identify, prevent and respond to ACSA. They have two children and have been married for 15 years. You can connect with them at jackandmoriahsmothers@gmail.com. Moriah has also been affiliated with Restored Voices Collective, a nonprofit group that seeks to break the silence around ACSA. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, MORIAH SMOTHERS, JACK SMOTHERS, PAUL LINGE, JIM BURGEN JULIE ROYS 00:04 In 2020, Moriah Smothers says her spiritual and sexual abuse by her pastor was suddenly exposed. Only no one recognized it as abuse. Instead, it was labeled an affair, and Moriah was ostracized by her church. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys, and this is part two of a two part podcast with Moriah Smothers and her husband Jack Smothers. In part one, Moriah told of what she believes was grooming and abused by her former pastor Patrick Garcia. And if you haven't heard part one, I encourage you to go back and listen to that now. It's a harrowing and cautionary tale about how adult clergy sexual abuse happens. And I wish more Christians understood this phenomenon because it's a widespread problem wreaking havoc in the church. But so often it goes undetected, and the victims instead of receiving help receive condemnation, and the predators often get re platformed only to continue their predatory ways. So again, if you haven't heard part one, I encourage you to do that now.

 But in this podcast, Moriah and Jack describe what is often called the second wound. This was the response of their church to Moriah's adult clergy sexual abuse, and the shame and the rejection that Moriah experienced was absolutely devastating. But you'll also hear how after a year of extreme pain and brokenness, Moriah heard an earlier podcast that we did on The Roys Report with another victim of adult clergy sexual abuse and hearing that podcast and recognizing that it wasn't an affair, but abuse led to a ton of healing. But it also prompted Jack and Moriah to confront the leaders at their former church, Hills church in Evansville, Indiana, for how they handled Maria's abuse. The couple also reached out to Bob Russell, Pastor Emeritus of one of the largest churches in America, who is currently re-platforming Patrick Garcia. You'll hear Bob Russell and the Hills church responded, and you'll hear Moriah and Jack's impassioned plea that the church and other Christian institutions start dealing with adult clergy sexual abuse in an appropriate way. So, I'm very excited to share this podcast with you. But first, I'd like to thank our sponsors, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. We now pick up my conversation with Moriah and Jack Smothers. They previously described how their pastor Patrick Garcia groomed Moriah and then abused his power by luring her into an emotional and sexual relationship. This was eventually discovered by Patrick's wife, who then told the church leadership. And this is where we join our discussion. So how did you feel the church responded to you, Moriah? MORIAH SMOTHERS 03:49 I don't want to over exaggerate this and I can share details. The abuse from my pastor was horrible. The way the church responded was 10 times more traumatizing than the abuse. I could have recovered from the abuse in a reasonable amount of time, I feel but the literature when you read about this, it calls it the second wound. And the first is that having just that abuse experience, but then the church response was really painful. I don't think the church had any knowledge of adult clergy sexual abuse. And so we were basically told again, through zoom, I think Dave was designated to be the person that communicates with us, nobody else really did, that they were going to release a statement. This is what the statement was. We were not involved in any of the processes the information. I did again, we thought we only had a fair narrative. We had no information about ACSA. And so I did send a text message. Jack and I thought it was a good idea at the time to some of the women I was really close to and I disclosed that this situation had to do with me. In hindsight that was not a good choice because of the way I worded it but oddly, one of the things I've struggled to recover the most from, were some of the communications from my very best friends from the church. And most of them were very involved in the church as well. And so one of the ones that has just stuck with me is when your identity is eviscerated, things just have the ability to sink really deep. One of them was calling me Judas and Patrick's wife at the time was like Jesus. A lot of them wrote, you need to get help, you really let the devil win was a common one I got. I'll never trust you again was often. And I will say those that were ugly, hurt, they hit really deep. I did get a few women to respond or just like I don't understand but I'm praying for you. And very little support from within the church. I do want to say that God was really I wouldn't have been able to make this big faith statement a year ago, but I realized now God was so good. He sent I didn't know this woman, but she was local. When she heard what was happening at the Hills. She is also a survivor. And she asked for my contact information from a mutual acquaintance. And she immediately got in contact with me and has mentored me, she didn't know about abuse either. But she and her husband made it and were thriving. But it was another abuse situation locally and just was such a good mentor to me. So, inside the church, the response was not supportive. It was not understanding. We were ostracized, basically. Even people we love dearly the extent of support was basically like, go get marriage counseling, and so not supportive. Outside the church, nobody we met understood ACSA. So I'm not saying that we still never got the language. But there were some people that were able to love on us. Our next-door neighbors, were just Jesus to us. This fellow survivor, my parents came around us very quickly. And so we did have some support that we you know, a lot of people don't have, so I want to acknowledge that. JULIE ROYS 07:04 Wow. Jack during this time, you and Moriah's parents met with Dave Bowersox and Daryl Maron. As I'm understanding that was a pretty tough meeting. Would you describe what happened in that meeting? JACK SMOTHERS 07:22 It was intense. But so Moriah's parents are wonderful, amazing Christians, they have invested a lot into Moriah and I, and we trust them, we love them. And so we felt that it would be good to take them along. And I'm glad that they went. They've done a lot of counseling in their life. And so they took resources, books, a variety of different resources to help Dave and Daryl in the Hills guard against situations like this occurring again. So they gave them those resources. And we talked through the situation, they shared some of the information that they had, such as you know, I was not aware at that point in time, of the May encounter that had happened at the zoo and police report. And since I was not allowed to come to that meeting with Moriah, I didn't have that information. MORIAH SMOTHERS 08:22 There's was an investigation. JACK SMOTHERS 08:23 There was an investigation. They hired an investigator to look into Patrick's devices to see if they could uncover anything. And I guess that went on throughout the summer. And when that didn't come up with anything that he was re platformed later on in that fall. JULIE ROYS 08:41 Help me understand this. And maybe I misheard you, you're saying there was an investigation, they looked at all the devices, and then they re platformed Patrick? JACK SMOTHERS 08:52 Yeah, The investigation came up with nothing, they did not find any communication. Their suspicion of communication. But they didn't find anything between Patrick and so this was after just to clarify, this was after the May event. JULIE ROYS 09:08 Got you. So in between the two? JACK SMOTHERS 09:10 There was that investigation that didn't come up with anything. When everything finally did come out, and what was that? September? October? That's when the meeting happened with Moriah's parents and myself and the pastors. JULIE ROYS 09:25 And is it true that Dave Bowersox confessed during that meeting that he was aware that Patrick had an attraction to Moriah? JACK SMOTHERS 09:34 That is true. So Dave's advice to Patrick was just get a handle on it, get it under control and resolve your old feelings, essentially. They felt like Patrick may have targeted Moriah, but they said that they felt like Moriah was complicit in that situation. Of course, they didn't understand at the time the ACSA framework and that complicity would not be possible in that situation. So it was high drama. JULIE ROYS 10:03 Stunning to me that seminaries don't teach this. It's against the law. I wish it was in more states, but in certain states, it is against the law for a pastor to have a relationship like this with a congregant. It seems like we're, maybe we're just on the cusp of becoming awake to this. But even as I have interviewed pastors, and say, hypothetically, do you think it would necessarily be abuse if a pastor has a relationship with a married congregant? And there'll be like, we don't know what the role of the woman was. Like, I don't even understand the basics of exactly what you said, Jack, that when there's a power differential, someone cannot give consent, when there's that kind of power. But it's just stunning to me complete and utter ignorance. And it's inexcusable. Every pastor should be aware of this. The same way that you have to go through training with Title XI, if you work for a university, pastors need to go through this kind of training, if they're going to serve in the pastorate and so do all the elders and the people who are holding them accountable. But it is just not happening. And it's really unbelievably frustrating. MORIAH SMOTHERS 11:19 Yeah. And really, that's the heart of why we're talking to you, is that you're right. It's illegal in 14 states right now. Understanding adult clergy sexual abuse is a job requisite skill at this point. 20 years ago, maybe not knowing maybe I can get it. There's so much literature now and fantastic researchers that this has been discussed too widely to claim ignorance at this point. And so I completely agree with you. There should be no ignorance of this issue. JULIE ROYS 11:50 In the wake of what happened is my understanding that Hills church actually paid for counseling for Patrick, is that right? JACK SMOTHERS 11:57 That's what they told us. JULIE ROYS 11:59 Okay, did they pay for counseling for you? JACK SMOTHERS 12:02 They did not. JULIE ROYS 12:03 Help me understand that? Did they give any kind of explanation for that? JACK SMOTHERS 12:08 No, we didn't ask them to pay for anything. MORIAH SMOTHERS 12:11 I chose a counselor because my survivor friend had also seen this woman. And again, she didn't know she was actually a survivor at the time. And so she was affiliated with a church that the Hills did not want us to receive counseling from. And so they actually discouraged me from seeing a counselor. They wanted us to see a counselor that was also I believe, seeing Patrick and his wife at the time. And so I was uncomfortable seeing a counselor that they recommended, which they didn't offer to pay for anything either way. But again, Julie, our supportive statement was go get marriage counseling. As if our marriage was broken, not that I was targeted and groomed and abused, confusing. JULIE ROYS 12:55 And the statement that was given at the time called it an inappropriate relationship, correct? Patrick did say that it was his fault, and no one but him. His fault, yet seems like some mixed messages in what was being said. MORIAH SMOTHERS 13:10 And there was no disclosure, I was a congregant. And I think that while there was no overtly blaming me in this situation there, I felt like the context of the sermon was, frankly tacky. It was preaching from the woman caught in adultery. And it was from the lens of a let's not throw the first stone but as a broken woman, I listened to it. That was all I heard is the adultery piece. They had all the advisory boards stand up front, and you could just see their disgust on their face. It was a group I should have been part of. Because if anybody had known I was missing, that would have been very a clear signal if they had known. It really has always bothered me, they never disclosed I was a congregant. I think that was very intentional. Actually, Dave Bowersox had apologized. He said, I'm so sorry you all are having to go through with this. And Jack, I think he said something like, I'm sure there's not a script for it. And they've said, Oh, no, there actually is. So they received counsel from somewhere about how to handle these situations. JULIE ROYS 14:13 They didn't make you were a big Scarlet A, at least. I guess we've progressed a little bit. But unbelievable. Yeah, what you went through and I'm so sorry. That just sounds absolutely traumatizing. For a year while you're in biblical counseling, you're believing the narrative. How did you internalize what you had done and the consequence? MORIAH SMOTHERS 14:40 Yeah. Oh, man, that's complicated. Julie, honestly, a lot of pieces did not make sense. But I was so desperate to keep my family together. I was willing to take responsibility for anything and everything. And so that's what I did for a season is I did a lot of work with my biblical counselor to figure out what was wrong with me. Like how had I sinned, how had I fallen, I will own it, I will repent for everything under the sun. Because I wanted to be well and whole. I didn't understand how this happened because I didn't want to have an affair. To be honest, I'm not even attracted to Patrick. I had no clue how this happened. But all we had was a fair framework. My mom tried to be really sweet and helpful gave me like a fair recovery books and things. And I started to read them. And I was like, this isn't me, this isn't I'm not represented in this. And so I will say the counselor I saw, knew nothing about abuse and trauma for this situation. She did some good soul care kind of things with me. But yeah, we were just trying to keep it together with the fair. JULIE ROYS 15:47 Wow. That's a very humble response, and so often we don't see those. You can only do what you know. But when you know, then you're responsible. And that's super, super important. It seems like you did have an epiphany. And it was on a podcast that we published, which, when I hear things like that it's so heartening. We work in the trenches a lot from day to day. And it's not the easiest work. But things like that, to hear stories of how it has impact is, it can give you some fuel for a decent amount of time. So I'll just say that it just is really encouraging. MORIAH SMOTHERS 15:47 He won't say this, but my biggest source of healing was Jack. That sweet man, we walked together a lot. That's where we bond as we walk. And so like we were walking every day for miles and miles. And he was my counselor at that time. And how deeply unfair for him to have been traumatized the way he was, and yet he was supporting me. I wanted basically nothing to do with faith at that point. And I've loved Jesus my whole life basically, that I thought, How can God cannot be good if my pastor treated me this way. Which I could have gotten over that, but I thought, There's no way the church is good or right, if it's been covered up by other pastors. So I was relying on Jack's faith. And Jack never asked me to leave. And again, we thought affair, never asked me to leave. He never yelled at me. There was a moment that it's still it's really hard to talk about. It was very soon after all of this had come out. And again, I was following him around the house because I was dazed and confused what had happened. He stopped in the doorway, and our kids were sitting there watching. And he said, I just feel so much compassion for you. And that was the first time he hugged me since it all came out. And I don't usually cry. I'm not a crier. I sobbed and sobbed in the hallway. And it was like, from that moment, I knew we were going to be okay. But it was hard. It was a hard road. And I did get some bad advice spiritually. The counselor told me that God had probably planned this for me, maybe for Patrick Garcia to get out of ministry. And I thought, man, if that's what God plans for the children he loves, I don't want to follow that God anymore. So that was a rough road. I will say for that counselor, Jack and I once we did realize what had happened, that it was abuse, we went back to her, presnted that. She graciously received that she apologized to us for not knowing. And so I have a lot of respect for her for that reason. And I'm excited for the work she's going to do in the future with this new knowledge. JULIE ROYS 17:49 But you heard a podcast, I guess it was November 2021, that I recorded with Katie Roberts, a beautiful, wonderful person that has become a friend, because I've been able to share her story with a lot of you. And so courageously she walked through what was incredibly difficult, and she took incredible hits from people criticizing her. It is just so indicative of the misogyny in our culture, that we just have such a difficult time wrapping our heads around the fact that women are not the temptress or that we cannot acknowledge that this is abuse. But Katie, beautifully did, and you heard that podcast when she talked about her own grooming, and abuse. Talk about what that was like to hear that and for the light bulb to go on. MORIAH SMOTHERS 19:23 That was an epiphany and that's exactly what it was. I'd been listening to your podcast for a while because I didn't have the words but I felt like something was mishandled here. It just, what happened in the church, it didn't sit right. Like I knew it didn't feel like justice somehow but I didn't know why. And I've been listening to you for a while Katie came on. And I remember almost feeling a little shaky and scared because I felt like she's telling my story. Like how could she possibly know what happened to me? And how has it happened to her? And this was way before I knew that there's so many similarities between these grooming and abuse stories with clergy. And I listened to the whole thing, I sent it to everybody in our support network, which let's be honest, that actually wasn't very many people at the time. But anybody that knew our story and would listen, I sent them the podcast. And I was like, how can this be? The language she used to explain like the grooming and the trauma bonding, the love bombing. She used the language that I had been describing, but didn't have the right word for it. And so it was such a weird thing. But I remember feeling I have to know more about this. And so I looked up Katie's email, and I emailed her and I said, I don't know if this makes any sense or not. But this is my story. And I shared it all. And she responded, and we ended up hopping on a phone call or zoom, I don't remember. But her first words to me, I actually wrote them down to share at the end of this podcast, because there was so much compassion when she heard my story. And she said, I'm so sorry how you've been mistreated. And from someone outside of my circle, but didn't have to love me and hear my story, that was such a powerful moment, because she got it. And while we were talking, she kept saying I understand, and that makes sense. And I thought, I didn't even understand all of this, and she did. And that's another part of the reason we're talking to you is that we found truth and understanding and freedom through Katie's story, which I know was a grueling experience for her. And I thought if the Lord is going to bring this opportunity full circle, where I learned through Katie, if someone can hear our story, and hear the tragedy, but also the hope, then we can't pass that up. JULIE ROYS 21:53 I love that. And I have found that nobody can minister to a survivor like another survivor. MORIAH SMOTHERS 22:03 I've learned the most through that community, there's a support group community that Katie and a few others founded. It's called Restored Voices Collective, and the learning, the growth, the empathy that happens in there, it could not be replicated, and it's only other survivors. So we're just supporting each other, we're not trying to overly educate or correct, it's just living life together in the aftermath of deep brokenness. JULIE ROYS 22:33 And I think that's what I've heard and what I've experienced, what I've seen. The Restore Conference that we've done, you know, a couple of those. And I remember the first one, I thought, oh, we should have prayer ministers, you know, to make sure because really, I mean, the whole vision was just to gather people that were literally strewn along the highway. I mean, that's just how it seems when you report these stories, and the church isn't caring for them, the church harmed them. And so they have nowhere to go and to see them come together. And I realize the prayer ministers are here, they're each other, right? It's the person who's sitting down right beside you, who you don't have to explain hardly anything because they get it. And it really is. And I know the survivor community is not perfect. And sometimes there can be some really painful things that happen within it. But I would say 90-95% of the people in there are just some of the most compassionate, good people because their character has been refined by fire. MORIAH SMOTHERS 23:39 And I attended your last Restore conference, and I got to meet a lot of the women I'd only known online up until that point, through zoom meetings, and one of the things that struck me is that personally, they're very normal, seeming. It's like when you feel so broken and devastated. Which is strange to me, like these very regular moms and women, but what I also know about them is they are warriors, they are so strong and so capable and intelligent. And that was an amazing experience just to see like my supporters in person. And that was amazing. Thank you for putting on those conferences, because I got to meet my people in person because of that. JULIE ROYS 24:20 It's a pleasure to do it really is and it's an honor. And we have another one coming up. So October 13 and 14th. If you're interested in that, I hope if you're listening you can because honestly, being with those people and experiencing what God does there, is probably one of the favorite things that I've ever done in my life. I absolutely love it. So it's RESTORE2023.COM if you want more information on that. So talk about the difference and you've already touched on it but the healing journey for you and Jack having this new perspective that this was not an affair that this was abuse, that you are a victim, that you're a survivor walking through this, what difference did that make emotionally and relationally, but also spiritually? MORIAH SMOTHERS 25:16 Oh, that's a big question. So I will say, for me the language made all the difference. Because earlier in the podcast you mentioned, I wrote that I felt like an addict. Now, knowing that description while being true is describing trauma bonding, that was really powerful. And I think because I'm a teacher person, like, language has been so healing for me. And it's given me search terms, basically, to read about what does this mean. So that's been a huge part of my healing. And then also being able to teach other people in my life about this is what this means this is how this happens. And just having the right words to study has been very healing. Also, I would say, understanding ACSA was healing in and of itself, because there's so many pieces of who I am, who Jack was, our life didn't just didn't fit affair. And so it felt very insufficient. And we did not have answers. Once we had this framework and understood how this happens, I started talking to other survivors, hearing similarities and stories. It's a really sad club to be part of. But then you have your other people to compare notes with. And so you have options and choices again, that I never had before. And so again, we were happy healing in private with that, but that made a big difference. My faith was a battle though. I think, intellectually, and emotionally, Jack was so stable for me and such a good listener, he helped me heal up in that way. My faith was a big, I still struggle with that, if I'm being completely honest. I was really ready to walk away for a while thinking that there's no goodness in church, I don't see how God can be good if these are the people that are leading a church. And so I got to a place in my faith that I realized that, so our kids committed their life to Jesus as well before, while I was really still struggling, which was such a beautiful thing. So I really felt like to be a good wife and mom, I've got to figure out this faith thing. Because I was willing at that point, I'll follow Jack wherever he goes. So if I have to attend church and just be mentally elsewhere, I will. But I knew I've got to figure out what this is. So I mentally went through like the major religions. And I was like, I don't see myself becoming a Buddhist and like really going through, like, where am I going to land because I'm a faithful person, I always have been, I knew I needed a religion, or faith. And so I thought, gosh, well probably like my best option is just really going with some kind of new age thing. But I would be a horrible God to myself. And so I felt like that's not on the table. And so I thought, Okay, I've got to figure out what do I really believe about Jesus? Because Jack has been being Jesus to me. And I don't mean that in a weird way, just like modeling the goodness of God, like I was holding on to his faith. And for the first year, again, only affair framework, I was able to read the Psalms, which was fine, like that was good, it was a start. But then when I realized I've got to make my mind up about what I think about Jesus, I started reading the gospels again. And that was a moment for me that I realized, I absolutely love the person of Jesus Christ, and that our hearts were so much in alignment about, he rarely called out anyone in sin or the vulnerable. He called out religious leaders for the way they were hurting vulnerable populations. And so that was a turning point for me is that, first of all, Jack modeled faith to me. He modeled the love of Jesus, which kept me hanging on by a thread. And then once I could finally reengage with the Word of God, I just focused on the person of Jesus. And I was able to fall back in love with him and really have some deeper roots again. I say now, and I completely mean this. The only people in my life I really trust are Jack and Jesus. JULIE ROYS 29:08 Wow. I love the honesty and the vulnerability. And I don't know anyone who has walked through church hurt, or certainly adult clergy sexual abuse- that's just brutal – who hasn't struggled in their faith in their walk with the Lord. I just spent the weekend with a survivor and, boy, they were raw, and they were honest, and I've been through it too. So. MORIAH SMOTHERS 29:40 And we're really healed up in a lot of ways. But I mean, we're almost three years out, but church is hard still. We've just moved. We're looking for a new church home. It's hard. And there's a lot of triggers and red flags and it's just even when you're in a good place and you really love the people. It's just hard. JULIE ROYS 29:56 It is, but I will say one thing, my teachers, Katie has been a teacher. Lori Anne Thompson has been a teacher. And they've been gracious with me like when I've written something and I used a wrong word or a wrong term, and they won't mince words. They'll reach out to me, but they're gracious when I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I'm not. Yep. Okay. Help me understand. MORIAH SMOTHERS 30:22 That's survivor community, they are loving but they are fierce and I love that about them. JULIE ROYS 30:27 Yes, they are. But I think it's so important to process what's happened. And I know just my own church hurt, experience, being able to process with people that you're not going to rack them, if you just say exactly how you're feeling in the moment. And that's just super, super important. Let's turn to holding the church accountable, because after this happened after you became enlightened about what had actually happened to you, you reached out to the Hills leadership, and you wrote them a letter, you've given me a copy of that letter. I think it's so good. I would love for you to just read it because my understanding is you sent this letter, so far, you haven't gotten a response. MORIAH SMOTHERS 31:17 No, I think it was confirmed it was received. Actually, the first letter I sent Jack was really kind. Again, I know we've been harsh about the church we came from, the Hills. We love a lot of the people there. I think there's some good things happening there. Out of respect, Jack met with Dave Bowersox to let them know this letter is coming. But besides that, you did get a response after this letter, though. Didn't he call you? JACK SMOTHERS 31:42 He did respond. I don't know if it was a call or an email. But he did respond. MORIAH SMOTHERS 31:45 And I think it was basically like we mishandled the situation was the response. I wrote this letter in fall 2021. So that was right after learning about adult clergy sexual abuse. So I will say I've learned a lot more since then. There are a few pieces of it that knowing what I know now, I would reword differently. But this is right where I was at having learned it, so I'll read it for what it is. My Hills church leadership. For most of the past year, Jack and I have been trying to navigate our way through this situation, with the framework and language that surrounds an affair or inappropriate relationship, which implies there was full consent from both people. While many of my choices were sinful and I egregiously sinned against God and Jack, it did not account for many of the experiences represented within the reading and counseling in which we engaged. I voraciously sought material to gain an understanding of what happened with the hopes that knowledge would alleviate my confusion and brokenness. In doing so I recently discovered the concept of adult clergy sexual abuse, ACSA, and for the first time I understood what had occurred. With this new knowledge, I felt compelled that we as the church need to grow in this area. Upon reflection, Jack, and I believe there are two logical explanations for the way that Hills leadership handled the situation, which include either ignorance or intentional misrepresentation. From an assumption of ignorance, if you had been aware of power dynamics requirements for consent, the cycle of ACSA abuse, how targets are chosen by predators and the grooming process, then this situation would have been conveyed to the congregation differently. The alternate explanation is that you received legal/peer counsel to minimize the liability of the church by intentionally misrepresenting clergy abuse as an inappropriate relationship. Regardless of the explanation of what happened in the past, there is much work to be done going forward to minister to those who have been hurt within the church. Therefore, I am writing to you with the hope that you as an institution will be able to grow and change as I have been growing and changing in my understanding and the implications of this critical issue. I hope you have read and shared my side of the story with the church leadership, elders, pastors and advisory council, which was given to you in fall 2020. However, if you have not, I suggest you review it so you have an anecdotal understanding of ACSA in this specific situation. Given my new understanding of power differentials and how they apply to pastors and congregants, I fully believe I was exploited by Patrick Garcia, and it was erroneous and misleading for the church leadership to convey it as an inappropriate relationship, which conveys consent. The predatory nature of the lead pastor was not communicated to the congregation, which is of great concern to me because it minimizes the impact of abuse within the church. I've included several resources on ACSA and I pray that you will educate yourselves and your leadership teams on the nuances of this type of abuse, how to effectively prevent it and how to handle it with integrity and transparency if it does occur. The reason that I am writing to you is threefold. One, I ask that you reach out to other potential victims and provide them with the support and resources to understand misconduct, grooming and abuse by spiritual/pastoral leader. As you are likely not aware of all the victims who have been adversely impacted by pastoral misconduct in the church you lead, an open invitation to all congregants is likely needed. Please connect them with a female counselor that is well versed in adult clergy sexual abuse and misconduct. The wounds from this are complex and deep. So I implore you to seek out your hurting sheep and care for them. Two, I ask that you share my story and ACSA resources with anyone in the church that you consider a leader. In my opinion, this means the elder board, pastoral staff and advisory board at a minimum. It is the church leadership's responsibility to shepherd their flock with care and dignity. Choosing to not educate yourselves when a wolf has wreaked havoc on your congregation is not living up to the call our Lord has placed on your role. Number three, I ask that you inform the perpetrator and people from whom you received counsel, that this was not simply an inappropriate relationship, that it falls under the criteria of adult clergy sexual abuse. By doing this, I hope you will clearly communicate that God's church is a place that abuse in any forum is not tolerated, because your primary goal is to protect the people under your care. I then provide some working definitions of clergy sexual misconduct, clergy sexual abuse and abuse of power. And then there were hyperlinked resources at the bottom. JULIE ROYS 32:41 So you asked for three things. Of those three things that you asked for, have you gotten any of them? MORIAH SMOTHERS 35:40 If any of those things have been done, they have not been communicated to us. JULIE ROYS 36:39 Okay. And, Jack, you had a conversation with Dave Bowersox after he received this letter? What did he say? JACK SMOTHERS 36:50 They were still processing what their response was going to be. And so he did thank me for meeting with him before we sent the letter to give him a heads up about what our intention was in sending the letter. But that was the extent of the response that we received. JULIE ROYS 37:06 And then you send a follow up letter to a couple months later, still nothing. MORIAH SMOTHERS 37:10 No. I reminded them of the request, and I sent the follow up, not to just be hounding them, but it was when everything had come out in a bigger way with the SBC. And so I thought surely this will get their attention that they'll realize how serious this is because the SBC even came out and said that if a pastor is in a relationship with a congregant, it's abuse, and that's a disqualifying sin. And so I thought having this outside entity that is that powerful, repent, hopefully, that should speak volumes to them. I received confirmation it was received, but I have not heard word if anything was actually done. JULIE ROYS 37:50 Right. And when this is called an affair and not abuse, it does open the door for the person to reoffend, and to continue doing this. And there may be others who have similarly been groomed by Patrick. MORIAH SMOTHERS 38:07 I've been told very specific information about those situations, which makes me think it's credible, but I have not had interaction or communication with any women that would say that. But again, they probably wouldn't even know it was grooming. JULIE ROYS 38:21 So now, almost three years have passed since Patrick resigned from the Hills. When he did so he said he was going to undergo a quote, season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed. Christian Post just published this article in June in which Patrick says he's repented. He said, he's gotten to the root of his pride. He's preaching again. Do you believe Patrick Garcia is repentant? And why or why not? JACK SMOTHERS 38:53 I'll give my thoughts on that. Not to dodge the question, but I don't believe it matters whether or not he is repentant. I believe that an abuser is disqualified from ministry regardless of whether or not they repent. I hope that he has restored his relationship with God. I hope that all abusers come to an understanding of the pain that they have inflicted and are genuinely sorry and repent from that sin. But that does not mean they are then qualified to stay in that profession. They can go get any other job anywhere in the world, but not that one. MORIAH SMOTHERS 39:35 Actually, one of the things I feel strongly about is that I hope he's repentant. I hope everyone repents, but that does not mean there's leadership roles out there for them. I think actually, repentance means not seeking out leadership, because that's where this pain occurred. Like clearly that's a temptation that's a difficult area. Restore your relationship with God and be involved in a healthy body, church body. But I don't think that means leadership. And that's where I'm seeing my biggest concerns are about the church right now is that repentance equates to re-platforming. And I don't think that's what that means. JULIE ROYS 40:13 And when trust is betrayed, trust has to be earned back. And honestly, I said this not too long ago, but some of these guys don't have enough time in their life to earn back the trust that they've squandered and that they betrayed. But I agree with you. And I know there's going to be people who disagree. And what about David? We've talked about this so many times on podcasts, or listen to other podcasts, we've addressed this ad nauseam, but I'm just so tired of it. Above reproach is the qualification in Scripture for an elder. Are you above reproach? I have a tough time thinking that someone who has preyed on a congregant. Think about that; you're supposed to be a shepherd, and you became the wolf. How we could ever put that person back in the sheep pen again. And the amount of concern and compassion and let's pray for the predator that you hear. And the little that you hear about praying and concern and care for the victim is appalling. And I think it's very indicative of the kind of culture that we live in, which puts celebrities up on the platform. And man, if you are an order, and you you have the right stuff, boy, people just love you. But man, if you're not, and you happen to be in the way of someone getting back on that platform, it's very difficult. So I asked Jim Bergen, he's the lead pastor of Flat Irons Community Church in Colorado, and Paul Linge, who currently oversees the counseling ministry there at Crossroads, whether or not they thought that Patrick was ready to return to ministry, whether he should be replatformed. I got two very different responses. So I'd like to play both of them. First, here's how Jim Bergen responded. JIM BURGEN 42:12 Patrick absolutely messed up in a simple way with this woman. Her degree of willingness or participation. I don't know anything about she didn't call me. Patrick confessed to me, and I okay about disclose everything you know, and get on it. And even as he's starting to move back into ministry, I have a lot of texts going hey, do you think I can preach again? Do you think I can preach again? And I'm like, slow down. Because it's been, I don't think, we lose most of the New Testament and all of the Old Testament, if sexual sin disqualifies you from ministry forever. I mean, David, we lose Abraham, okay. But I don't think that when a pastor makes a mistake like this, it's a death sentence forever. But it definitely is a slow, long healing process. And that's what I cautioned him with, over and over again. JULIE ROYS 43:04 Okay, clearly, Jim Bergen doesn't share our view on this. MORIAH SMOTHERS 43:09 Really, Jim Burgen understand or know any survivors of ACSA. Just sexual sin and not the spiritual or emotional or psychological. He needs some education on that. JULIE ROYS 43:20 He does. And actually, in our conversation, I pushed back on that and asked him about spiritual abuse, about adult clergy sexual abuse, as well, and what qualifies. And it was clear to me that a lot of this was new to him. MORIAH SMOTHERS 43:35 Yeah, we've met some really, truly good men, good shepherds, pastors that we have a lot of respect for. They don't know. And I'm just floored by that. JACK SMOTHERS 43:47 But the good ones respond with a desire to learn. Yes, and that's really encouraging. Moriah has done a wonderful job of putting together training on ACSA. We've been able to deliver that to two different churches, and it's just fantastic and encouraging and edifying to see the godly people who get it and they want to improve they want to protect their congregation and guard against wolf-like behavior. JULIE ROYS 44:16 As I said, I also asked Paul Linge about this question, and I'd like to play his response. PAUL LINGE 44:23 Christian Post article stated that he did meet with Crossroads elders as part of what I think was I don't remember if it was Southeast or Bob Russell in particular but basically trying to put him on a restoration pathway which to me was grossly inefficient. General sense was it was a box to check rather than any kind of your display of repentance. Because for him to really go on a restoration journey with the people at Crossroads and Evansville. That's not a one-time meeting. There's probably months of meeting, based on the damage that was created in our community. So that's why it feels very superficial. I personally, and just through my own contacts have not seen the necessary repentance, or else he would be spending a lot more time in Evansville, the community that he helped blow up if that were true. And so I don't, I think the article comes across as in not just to me, but to others in our communities who read it, as though he was somehow the victim, whether that was the victim of Crossroads, the victim of the Hills leadership, the victims of Savannah, and it's just not true. At some point, a person has to take ownership and responsibility that for their own choices and behavior. I think he keeps getting prodded along by some key figures, who, for whatever reason, are reticent to just tell him the truth. Maybe they are, and I just don't know it. But it just seems like he's been continued to be propped up. I don't know if it's so much of a timeline, Julie, as it is looking for mile markers along the way. Right. So looking for signs of humility, looking for signs of teachability, looking for signs of repentance, looking for signs of restitution. I wronged you, you know, I dented your car, I'm going to pay for it to make sure it gets fixed. When you see that, you know, kind of the key is anybody I have wronged, then I'll make it right. That's the type of response I think you're looking for when you're talking about character change, or even your personality change. Once you start to see that and you're like, okay, something's happening. What we're looking for is their demonstration is there not feigned or fake remorse, but genuine repentance. And that's what I would say, at least from my experience from my seat. I have not seen that in Patrick Garcia in the last five years. JULIE ROYS 47:02 I'm guessing you resonate with a lot of what Paul said. I think he's absolutely right for looking for the markers of repentance, whether or not that means you can re-platform that's another question. And there's really need to be two different questions that people need to understand; you can be restored to Christ, you can be restored to the body restored to a position, that's a totally different thing. And I think people need to just start saying you're permanently disqualified. I don't know why we just can't seem to say that in the church. And yet I think it needs to be said for abusers. Absolutely. MORIAH SMOTHERS 47:39 And, Julie, I just want to again, echo what Paul said in his clip. It's what Jack and I were saying, Actually, Jack wrote this to Leonardo Blair, who wrote the article that the level of pain and trauma that article caused from Patrick, Blair made himself as the victim clearly demonstrates no understanding of spiritual authority, power dynamics, abuse. Anyone that was mentioned in that article, he re traumatized, and Leonardo did too. So I'm going to be very blunt, I hold the Christian Post responsible for publishing that as well as Patrick Garcia. Because I think, yeah, I think I hold them all responsible. We have too much information to just publish whatever might get a few clicks at this point without considering all of the victims, not just Jack and I, but the churches, the families. JULIE ROYS 48:30 And I think reporters need to be educated, absolutely need to be educated and trauma informed and all of these things and if you're not fine, but it's no excuse at this point. Get it. MORIAH SMOTHERS 48:44 Yeah, we get it. If you're not and don't want to be, go report on the weather, don't report when they're in a space where there are victims. JULIE ROYS 48:50 Yeah, absolutely. And there is clearly, I would agree, complete dearth of understanding of what ACSA, adult clergy sexual abuse is, and it needs to be remedied. I agree. Again, Patrick has been re platformed by Adventure church. He's preached there several times. That's a church in Louisville, Kentucky. I reached out to Adventure for comment. The church did not respond. Bob Russell has also replatformed Patrick. Bob had Patrick share about his fall and restoration at Bob's mentoring retreat for pastors. This, that Patrick is up there now instructing pastors about his fall and restoration and they're learning from him how to be a pastor. How does that make you feel? JACK SMOTHERS 49:41 That is absolutely ridiculous. You can't have someone who is an abuser trying to instruct people on how not to abuse. I don't understand really the line of thought and why you would want to put him into that scenario given his background. I think honestly I would just say my concern is, why is there so much focus on helping these pastors who have abused other people, instead of focus on how do we help the abused? How do we help the victims of the people who we have, are partially responsible for their victimization? That's really where the focus should be is how do we care for the vulnerable? because that's exactly what Jesus did. That's who he ministered to. And that's who he loves. So that's, we just have a mis alignment, a missed focus on on what we really talk about in churches. JULIE ROYS 50:37 And I'm guessing Bob Russell has met with Patrick, and continues to mentor him and yet, you guys reached out through Dave Road up, who I understand is someone who has relationship, he's in Christian leadership has a relationship with Bob Russell. He wouldn't meet with you. He would not meet with you. MORIAH SMOTHERS 50:58 Yeah. Paul Linge was the connection. We met with him and several other Crossroads leaders and shared our story shared educational material. They held space for us and held our story with so much goodness. That was very restorative. I struggle with pastors in general, getting to meet with Paul Linge helped restore some of that faith in that role. So the connection between us and Bob Russell is very removed, we don't know him. But we told Paul, if Bob Russell's willing to hear our story, we're willing to share it. And so there was also David Roadcup was involved there. David Roadcup knows our story as well. He shared it with Bob Russell what he could and said, Are you willing to meet with this couple, because they have concerns that Patrick Garcia is preaching again. And his comment was that if there was not sexual intercourse, I will not meet with them. That was what we were told. And so I guess anything, pastors are allowed to do anything, and be preaching and be re-platformed, besides have sexual intercourse with someone who's not their wife, is the message there. JULIE ROYS 52:01 Well, and again, we didn't hear that directly from Bob's mouth. But I have reached out to Bob, to try to get comment to try to clarify to give him opportunity. And he has not responded. If he'd like to, I'm still here, and he can do it. And I'll report what he says. Or if he'd like to apologize, he can do that, too. But just would like to hear from him, it would be really nice. Last question. And thank you so much. I know this is so hard, and can be re traumatizing. And it's difficult. And I know that you only do this because you care about other victims, you care about the church, and its ability to care for others and so this doesn't happen and keep happening to people. And so that Patrick doesn't get platformed and is able to prey on vulnerable people again. But I know it comes at a cost. And so I'm extraordinarily grateful to both of you. I know, just knowing the audience that we have for this podcast, that there are people listening, who have been through what you've been through, they may be in totally different levels of healing right now of understanding. But I think it's amazing how well both of you are doing three years, that may seem like a long time, it also seems a really short time, and you're doing remarkably well. Not just as human beings individually, but together in your marriage. And that's, I think, a testament to who you are as human beings and to the godliness. As you know, when you were talking about Jack and the way he's carried you through this, great husbands are a gift. And that's really beautiful to hear that. But I'm just wondering what you might say to other survivors who are listening, some of whom may just be right now white knuckling it just to hold on? MORIAH SMOTHERS 53:55 Yeah, yeah, and the survivor community is really, that's my heart. Like you said, that's why we're here. There's a line in Wade Mullins book that I've tried to anchor myself to, and I'm not going to quote it perfectly. Something's Not Right is the book that says, as part of your healing journey, you need to think about what your abuser or his supporters would want you to do and do the opposite. And so this is me reclaiming using my voice for that. And so I really thought about what would I say to other survivors, because I know where they've been at. And so I would repeat what sweet Katie Roberts said to me the first time I spoke to her in person, and is that I'm so sorry for how you've been treated. You aren't alone. There's others of us that have been where you're at. It's an absolute nightmare. But there are other people out there that get it. We're here for you. There's a group of women that would love to hear your story, and we're going to understand it because we've lived it as well. We're here to support you in that and that's Restored Voices Collective. Julie, if you can put that little link in your bio that would be great. I would encourage other survivors work really hard to find a counselor that understands trauma. Don't settle for a counselor that just loves Jesus. With what you've been through, it's not enough. They need to know trauma and abuse. If they love Jesus, that's great too Take the time to learn and study the language of what happened to you. Some of the researchers and writers that have been instrumental for me are David Pooler has been one of them. Dr. Heather Evans is another one, Mary DeMuth's book, We Too, is a really wonderful book. And I would say, take care of yourself. I know, this healing process is long and hard. You need people that can cheer you on and just sit with you in the pain. And the last thing I would say is, my faith is intact. And I hope that people that have really had a close relationship with Jesus, that have been abused, I hope you're able to find your way back to Him. But take your time; he's patient, he's willing to sit with you through all of the pain. And so when you're ready to explore faith again, or figure out what that looks like, just look to Jesus, don't look to your church leaders don't look to a denomination. Just look to Jesus for that. JULIE ROYS 56:12 That is so good. Moriah thank you. And thank you for just sharing so openly, Jack, thank you the same, again, difficult topic, but appreciate the way that you guys have walked through this with integrity. And the way that you're really reaching out to others and taking courageous stands to speak out, which is never easy. So thank you, it's just really been a blessing to get to know you. JACK SMOTHERS 56:37 Thank you. MORIAH SMOTHERS 56:38 Thank you. We appreciate the opportunity. JULIE ROYS 56:40 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And if you've appreciated this podcast, would you please consider supporting the work that we do here at The Roys Report. As I've said before, we don't have any big donors or advertising we simply have you, the people who care about telling other survivors stories, exposing wrongdoing, bringing healing and restoring the church. Also this month when you give a gift of $30 or more, we'll send you a copy of Christy Boulware's book, Nervous Breakthrough. It's such a great resource and I'm so excited to make it available to you to donate and get a copy of Nervous Breakthrough, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged.   Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript In 2020, Moriah Smothers thought her emotional and physical relationship with her pastor, Patrick Garcia, was an affair. She blamed herself and was ostracized by many in her church. Yet now, Moriah realizes she was the victim of adult clergy sexual abuse. And since Garcia has returned to preaching—and was recently featured in an article as a repentant and reformed pastor—Moriah is speaking out. In this exclusive podcast interview, Moriah and her husband, Jack, speak publicly for the first time since Patrick Garcia resigned from The Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. At the time, Garcia confessed to engaging in an “inappropriate relationship, both physically and emotionally.” And he pledged to undergo a “season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed.” Almost three years later, that season is apparently nearing a close. Garcia said recently that he's been able to determine what caused his crash. And, with the backing of mentoring pastor Bob Russell—pastor emeritus of one of the largest churches in the U.S.—Garcia is starting to minister again. This comes as a shock to Moriah, who says Garcia groomed and abused her, using his power as a pastor to keep her in a relationship she repeatedly tried to escape. And, in this podcast, Moriah and her husband, Jack, explain why they don't think Garcia should ever be allowed back into ministry. This podcast includes an interview with a pastor who served under Garcia at Crossroads Christian Church, where Garcia served until 2018, when he was fired. The Crossroads pastor says Garcia wasn't fired for mere “philosophical differences,” as previously announced, but for profound character issues. Also offering perspective is Jim Burgen, lead pastor of Flatirons Community Church in Colorado. Like Pastor Russell, Jim is a close friend and mentor for Garcia. Is Garcia a restored pastor, whose gifts shouldn't be withheld from the church? Or, is he a predator, who continues to deceive and manipulate, and shouldn't be allowed in ministry again? Multiple voices engage with these questions and provide understanding on adult clergy sexual abuse. Guests Dr. Moriah Smothers Dr. Moriah Smothers is an Associate Professor of Teacher Education and a former elementary special education teacher. She is also a survivor of adult clergy sexual abuse (ACSA). Dr. Jack Smothers is a Professor of Management and a secondary survivor. Their heart is to help other ACSA survivors find healing and community. They are passionate about educating church leaders to identify, prevent and respond to ACSA. They have two children and have been married for 15 years. You can connect with them at jackandmoriahsmothers@gmail.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, MORIAH SMOTHERS, JACK SMOTHERS, JIM BURGEN, PAUL LINGE JULIE ROYS  0:00 For a year, Moriah Smothers thought her emotional and physical relationship with her pastor Patrick Garcia was an affair. She blamed herself and was ostracized by many in her congregation. But Moriah says she now believes she was a victim of clergy sexual abuse. And now that Garcia is returning the ministry, she's speaking out in this exclusive podcast. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys and joining me on this episode is Moriah Smothers and her husband Jack Smothers. Moriah has not spoken publicly since 2020 when Patrick Garcia resigned from the Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. At that time, Garcia confessed to engaging in an “inappropriate relationship both physically and emotionally.” He added, no one is to blame for this repeated wicked behavior but me and he pledged to undergo a “season of restoration so that the root of my brokenness and dysfunction can be addressed.” Now almost three years later, that season is apparently nearing a close. In a Christian Post article last month, Garcia says he's been able to determine what caused his crash. And now with the help of mentoring Pastor Bob Russell, Pastor Emeritus of one of the largest churches in the country, Garcia is starting to minister again. He's also speaking out claiming the relationship he had with the other woman was an emotional affair, but the church forced him to say it was physical. He also claims the church didn't know how to handle his struggle with anxiety and depression, contributing to what happened. All this has come as a shock to Moriah, who says Garcia isn't telling the truth. She says Garcia groomed and abused her using his power as a pastor to keep her in a relationship she repeatedly tried to escape. She also says she's reached out to Russell and leaders at the Hills, trying to get them to acknowledge the abuse, but they've refused. On this podcast, you'll hear her story. You'll also hear from a pastor at Crossroads Christian Church, where Garcia served from 2016 to 2018. That's when he was fired for alleged philosophical differences. And you'll hear from a pastor who like Bob Russell, is a close friend and mentor for Garcia. You won't hear from Patrick Garcia. We reached out to him to hear his side of the story. He responded via email saying and I quote, “enough has been said about that part of my story. I'm in the season of accepting the Lord's forgiveness and moving on.” We'll get to this important podcast in a moment. But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well, joining me now is Moriah Smothers, who is speaking publicly for the first time about what she claims was clergy sexual abuse by Patrick Garcia, former pastor of the Hills Church in Evansville, Indiana. Also joining her is her husband Jack Smothers, who has stood by Moriah throughout the turmoil and devastation of the past several years. So Jack, and Moriah, thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know is just a really painful and difficult situation. MORIAH SMOTHERS  04:11 Thank you for having us Julie. JACK SMOTHERS  04:12 Thank you, Julie. JULIE ROYS  04:14 So as I mentioned in the open, Patrick Garcia resigned from the Hills Church in 2020, confessing to what the media called an affair. In the past three years you haven't said anything publicly about what happened. And now you are speaking publicly for the first time. So what led you to want to speak out now about this situation? MORIAH SMOTHERS  04:37 Julie, Jack and I have never wanted to, felt the need or the call to be public about any of this. Our heart was basically to disappear and heal up, figure out what happened, why it happened. And we have taken a few opportunities these past three years to for some educational reasons with some local church leaders, but really, we were very happy healing up in private on our own with some supporters as well. The reason that we're talking to you now is because of the Christian Post article that was recently released. We had no prior knowledge of that article, completely caught off guard by it. But after we both read it, we were deeply troubled by the fact that there was no mention of adult clergy sexual abuse in that write up. And even then I still didn't feel the need to say anything different than Patrick Garcia's story. But what really pushed us to reach out and say something and be public for the first time is I was so devastated and insulted for the survivor community, for other women that are your friends, and in a support group with now. I just felt the article was deeply disrespectful and tone death of everything happening in the evangelical church, between Ravi Zacharias and Hillsong, and the SBC, the Christian Post can do better and should do better. And so I felt like, I didn't want this opportunity. Jack didn't want this opportunity. But here it is. And we're really here to tell our story for survivors, and hopefully, for church leaders to know better and do better. JULIE ROYS  06:12 And so Leo Blair, who wrote that article. I know, Leo, he's a colleague, someone that I've talked to on numerous occasions, and has been helpful to me in stories. And he's done some excellent work. But in this case, sounds like he did not attempt to reach out to you, correct? MORIAH SMOTHERS  06:29 No, there was no attempt at all. Nobody involved in that story reached out to us or notified us at all. We were very surprised by it. JULIE ROYS  06:36 Okay. And I think he did reach out to the Hills' elders who did not respond to him. I guess they could have put him in touch with you. But that didn't happen. And I'm not sure that that was asked for even but a very regrettable situation. And so I'm glad that you're going to be able to tell your side of the story. Let's back up to when both of you met Patrick Garcia. As I understand, both of you were volunteers at Crossroads Christian Church in Evansville, Indiana. And that's where Patrick pastored from roughly 2016 to 2018. Would you describe your relationship with Patrick at the time? MORIAH SMOTHERS  07:16 Yeah, sure. Basically, Julie, there was no relationship. We started attending that church when Ken Idleman was pastoring it. We had a lot of respect for his preaching and teaching. And it would be classified technically, as a mega church; it was very large. We were serving and attending but the pastoral transition did happen while we were there, but there was no relationship of any sort. Our children are about the same age. So we might have walked past each other in a hallway but no kind of communication, no, no relationship of any sort, except he was the pastor. And that was it. JULIE ROYS  07:49 Okay, and I'm guessing you had impressions of him, though. He was your pastor. Jack, was there ever did you have any conversations with him at this point, or he was just the man up on stage/ JACK SMOTHERS  08:02 We had passing conversations. And I do remember, one time at Crossroads when Patrick was still a pastor there. I did say to Moriah, I have a bad feeling about him. I didn't have any evidence of anything, I just got a bad impression and asked her to keep her distance from it. That was the extent of our interactions. JULIE ROYS  08:23 So then, in 2020, Crossroads fired Patrick Garcia, and another Pastor Rick Kyle, over in this is what the statement said, at least initially was philosophical differences. That was the reason given. I've also spoken with Paul Linge who was and still is a pastor at Crossroads. And we'll get his take in a minute about what really was happening behind the scenes. But from your vantage point at the time, what did you think had happened and why Patrick Garcia was being fired by the church? 08:25 At that point in time, we were just congregation members very far removed from that inner circle with any sort of connection to Patrick or the elders. And I think that's an interesting question. It's something that churches should really consider deeply because for your average congregant, especially in a megachurch, that pastor, that teaching individual is going to be the person who your congregants feel more connected to. And we had a personal relationship, a friendship with another pastor by the name of Dave Bowersox, he was a friend. We love him and his family and he chose to resign from the church as a result of all that. And that, at the time, spoke volumes to us and we trusted him we trusted his friendship and I chose to side with them in moving to the Hills, which at that point in time, Patrick was not a part of, it had nothing to do with Patrick moving to the Hills. He didn't come on to staff  at the Hills until later on. But at that point in time, it was really because of our friendship with Dave. JULIE ROYS  10:04 Was there a narrative though? That was because I know that this cause major turmoil. In fact, it spawned, I know, an article in Christian Post back then, because I went back and read a lot of these articles. I wasn't aware of it at the time. I wasn't covering this sort of news, or I think my nose was probably in other stories at the time. But it sounds like it caused a lot of turmoil at Crossroads, several pastors resigned when Patrick was fired, there was a petition circulating. This was a major deal. And I'm guessing there had to have been trying to figure out which side is telling the truth, am I right? MORIAH SMOTHERS  10:40 Yeah, there was definitely it was highly contentious. The narrative I remember hearing, believing, understanding was that the elders wanted to lead in a more traditional way. And that the pastors that were being fired and or resigned and left wanted to be more progressive. And so there was truly what we believe the statement about philosophical differences in leadership. And again, at the time, we also believe that maybe Crossroads was wanting to be a bit more of a country club feel, then really reaching out to the needy, the vulnerable. So that was the narrative that was being put out there for people that were asking questions. That's what i remember. JACK SMOTHERS  11:22 You don't realize how gullible you are until after the fact until hindsight is available. But there was evidence that we could have looked into and chose not to, because of those connections and those relationships that we had those trusted relationships. And so those just exerted a profound influence over us. And then we regret that. JULIE ROYS  11:43 As I mentioned, I talked to Paul Linge, who currently oversees the counseling ministry there at Crossroads, but he served as executive pastor under Patrick Garcia. And this is what he told me about why Patrick was fired. PAUL LINGE  11:58 There were some fundamental character fissures in the makeup of his heart, his mind, his belief system, and those would leak out on a fairly regular basis. And while I never saw him act, to my knowledge, inappropriately toward a female, okay, that's too much that's inappropriate, that's wrong. But he would laugh at it just crude things. And unless they like for nudity, not that I saw but like pictures of like a shadow of It's a little embarrassing to talk about, shadows of a man's penis, and, and this was like early on, and he would laugh about it. And I was like, yikes, okay, something is a little off here. And I would confront him on it. And sometimes he would receive it. But it was dismissive as well. Basically, he was unteachable, he was young, he was still in his late 20s. I saw the way that he would posture himself in elder meetings, he was unteachable, he would not listen to men who are leaders in their areas of business and industry and are men of God. He had his own his official group of Crossroads elders that he was technically under the authority of, but he had his own private board outside of that. It was composed of guys who would tell him what he wanted to hear. And some of these are the Bob Russell's, and others, some of whom have had what appears to be great success in ministry. But they didn't have the nuts and bolts of the character of Patrick Garcia. And so I think it could be said that he came with what looked like a good pedigree; graduate of Cincinnati Christian University, the son in law of Dave Stone, who at that time was the lead pastor at Southeast Christian Church. And so it looked like good pedigree, but I don't know that the proper due diligence was done in tossing him the keys, so to speak, of Crossroads Christian Church. It felt like the keys were tossed to a reckless teenager rather than a mature man of God, who had in mind things of God. JULIE ROYS  14:02 That's Crossroads Pastor Paul Linge, expressing a perspective that it sounds like neither, you know, you, Jack or Moriah had at the time. I'm just curious, as you listen to that, what kind of thoughts do you have and feelings about what you just heard? JACK SMOTHERS  14:20 Gosh, it's hard to go back in time and put yourself in that place. Of all the information that we were ignorant of. What we know now is Paul Linge is a man of God like that guy that is truly the real deal. He is a committed Christian and I don't have insider information because I was not a member of the elder board. But I am not surprised by anything. Any comment that he made in that clip. MORIAH SMOTHERS  14:46 There was a lot too. Jack and I kind of were looking at each other like we've heard this before. There was a lot of weight put on Patrick's pedigree, and the people that he had surrounding him in ministry support. And again we didn't know, but we thought that must mean something because it was consistently put out there. A phrase we heard a lot was ‘he comes from good stock'. I bet we've heard that hundreds of times. And knowing now that he was going a lot on reputation, and I think we've heard a lot for different organizations. But it seems like we're looking at charisma more than character is something I've heard in other churches. And yeah, nothing Paul said was surprising to us knowing what we know now. But, Julie, you're correct. We did not have any of that information, when this split was happening. And we were trying to make a decision; we didn't know. JACK SMOTHERS  15:38 And I think that's important for churches to keep in mind when they are, I think Crossroads did as good as they possibly could have with handling that situation. But as a congregant, I think we probably needed more information to truly assess their rationale, their justification for letting Patrick go, because we essentially put ourselves into a dangerous situation. JULIE ROYS  16:04 Well, it does sound like some of the elders did try to speak up and they were pretty strongly censored by people for doing that. So I know it can be a very difficult situation. And I've often said when I'm reporting, it's like saying something bad about somebody's grandmother. Like, it may be true, but people just don't want to hear it. They want to believe what they want to believe. And it can be a very difficult situation. But as you guys mentioned, Paul Linge mentioned one of the difficulties that Crossroads had was dealing with these outside advisors. And like you said, this stock that he came from, he had this close relationship with Bob Russell, retired pastor of Southeast Christian Church in Louisville, one of the biggest churches in the country, very influential church. At the time, Patrick was also married to the daughter of Dave Stone, who was the pastor of Southeast Christian Church at the time, and Patrick, and Dave Stone's daughter has since divorced, but at the time again, he was Dave Stone's son-in-law. I reached out to Bob Russell for comments about the role that he's been playing in Patrick's life, as well as the role that he was playing at the time. He did not respond to me. However, one of Patrick's other advisors is Jim Burgen, and he's the lead pastor of Flat Irons Community Church in Colorado. And Jim was kind enough to grant me an interview. And here's what Jim said, regarding his understanding, at the time of why Crossroads fired Patrick. JIM BURGEN  17:31 My understanding is that he was trying to be very transparent, trying to be very real and authentic, admitting that he wasn't perfect and admitting he dealt with depression, things like that. And I do remember him telling me that the I don't want to be a gossip because I wasn't there, alright? So I know that Patrick was telling me that they didn't really want that image of their pastor. They wanted their pastor to be somebody who, because he had faith, and because he had the word of God, these things weren't really problems in their life anymore. They want him to stand on a pedestal and be an example, that you can overcome anything, which is a lot of pressure, but it also is, it's just not integrity. And so I read the same stuff you've read, but I've heard from Patrick, they didn't want that. They didn't want that. And then they parted ways over the I don't believe they parted ways over one thing, though, like, is just the overall, you have a different philosophy of ministry than we do. JULIE ROYS  18:28 So like then, or since you haven't really talked to any of the leaders at Crossroads? JIM BURGEN  18:34 No, not once. Or Hills. I've not talked to any of those leadership. JULIE ROYS  18:39 Again, that's pastor Jim Bergen who served as an advisor, I think he still is a mentor to Patrick. I like Jim, he was very gracious to grant me an interview. And we talked a long time. But I have to say when I heard him say that he hasn't talked to the leadership of Crossroads or the Hills, not once, that was concerning to me. Especially I know, he had Patrick come speak at his church in 2019. So this was after Patrick was fired from Crossroads. And it just doesn't seem from my vantage point, that there was respect for the local elders; enough respect to say, hey, what happened? But it seemed more like Patrick was, he's our prodigy. He's our guy. And so if he says this, I'm going with it. And if there's one thing in this story that even we've seen so far, nobody reached out to you to get your side of the story. Nobody reached out to these elders between these advisors to get their side of the story. I'm guessing you're feeling some similar things there. But do you have anything to add that you thought when you heard this from Jim? JACK SMOTHERS  19:50 I don't know if Jim is willfully and intentionally ignorant, or if Jim is confused, perhaps, or maybe I'm wrong, right? But in my opinion, that's the only thing that I can say. His statement about Patrick trying to be very transparent and real and authentic. What Patrick was actually doing is trying to manipulate other people into getting what he wanted. So my reaction to pastor Bergen is, I guess I should have gracious assumptions and say he did not apparently know the real Patrick Garcia. MORIAH SMOTHERS  20:28 My concern with his statement too Julie is, I think, a lot of times when these situations occur, the person where the blame should fall is excellent at isolating individuals so they can control the narrative. And I think that when that happens, it's really easy to spin the story that is in your favor. And so I think it was a real leadership failure to not have broken out of that vacuum, and have talked to other stakeholders like the Hills and Crossroads and other people involved in that. JACK SMOTHERS  21:03 Do you feel that the language he was using, the language that Patrick would use about being so real and authentic was really a way to justify his sin and normalize his behavior? MORIAH SMOTHERS  21:17 Yeah, I think the closest thing I've ever read that accounts for that is that Chuck DeGroat. He wrote When Narcissism Comes to Church. I came across the term I think he's the one who coined it, it could have been someone else, but called fauxnerability. That term exactly represented the culture of the Hills, and the culture that I believe Patrick wanted to create; that I'm going to be very open, vulnerable, transparent, but it's more transactional. And then I'm not really going to live that privately, which was a lot of the interaction he and I had together was horrible. JULIE ROYS  21:52 So within months of Patrick leaving Crossroads, he joined this new church that two former pastors at Crossroads started Dave Bowersox and Darrell Marin. Both of you decided to become part of this new church. What motivated you to do that? JACK SMOTHERS  22:11 Really was our relationship with Dave, we barely knew Darrell. But we were in a small group of Dave and his wife, Sandy, and really trusted them and loved their family a lot. And we also had kids about their kids age and Dave and I had a meeting at the university where Moriah and I are employed. And he mentioned, they were creating an elder board and said, I would be a great fit for that. That never really came to fruition while we were there. They created an advisory team and invited Moriah to be on that. I wasn't invited. We were involved with a discipleship ministry while we were at the Hills. But anyway, our relationship with Dave is what drew us there. JULIE ROYS  22:54 The not having an elder board, and having an advisory board with I'm guessing really had no teeth or accountability. Am I right? MORIAH SMOTHERS  23:02 That's exactly right. And so this advisory board they created had men and women that were all in with the church. Which I thought at the time, like what a wonderful demonstration like representation of the church. It was made very clear to the board multiple times that there was no accountability that pastors had to us. And we were never to be a decision making body. At the time I was there, it was very much, so we're gonna read you our stats, tell you the good things we're doing and you brag on us. And so it was a Yes-man and woman situation, let's cheer and say, rah. But no, there was no authority with that position. JULIE ROYS  23:41 And I will just say right now, and I do get asked this all the time. But people say like, how can you evaluate a church? And it's step one, look at the elder board. Are they truly independent or are they beholden to the pastor in some way? Are they staff members of the church? In other words, is the pastor their boss, so of course they're not going to buck him? Are they family members? This is another one that nepotism that runs in these. All of these things need to be looked at but what can they really do look at the bylaws. Do you have bylaws? If you do have bylaws, how is a pastor senior pastor going to be removed? Is that spelled out in your bylaws? Finances – do you know how much your senior pastor makes? And I don't care if you're at a small church or a large church, whatever. To me the fact that religious nonprofits and churches don't have to reveal what their top wage earners make, but secular nonprofits do, to me is appalling. Why should the church be less accountable to the people that give it money than the world right? than the secular nonprofits? It's these kinds of red flags that before I got into doing what I do today, I wouldn't have thought of either so I don't fault people for it. But I think we're in a season or a time in the church right now that's really somewhat of a crisis, with scandal after scandal coming out. And if people, if the church individuals, congregants, if we don't wise up, we're never going to see a change, because it's not going to come from the top, it's going to come from the bottom up. So, Moriah, it's my understanding that about a year later, so it was about October 2018, that you began on the advisory board at the Hills church. But then Patrick started communicating with you on an individual basis. And this is what you would say, is the early stages of what you believe is grooming you. Would you describe why you believe that this was a grooming situation and the beginning of abuse? MORIAH SMOTHERS  25:48 Before I get into that, Julia, and I will, is that one of the things that was revealing in the Christian Post article is that Patrick actually told on himself and said that he'd had a crush on me for three years. We had no interaction, we didn't know each other and knowing what I know now, I absolutely believe that I was targeted well in advance. I think he had been taking notes on me the times we had interacted. Jack and I lead a Bible study group with the pastors for a new curriculum, there were some things from that were a little unusual, but I just didn't think much of. So that communication initially, I would have considered very innocuous. It was really about the ministry Jack and I were helping run and so a lot of those emails early on, like I would have to discuss with Jack and things like that. But eventually, they turned into more texting, still some emails, but more texting. And I didn't loop Jack in on those, which was a huge error on my part. But it really a lot of it was just like joking and silly things that if someone had picked up my phone and read, they would have thought, that's odd, her husband sat on a bit, it wouldn't have been anything. So it wouldn't have been an obvious red flag. And so I let a lot of that go, even though I'm sure I had a gut check at the time, but it's my pastor, like, I've always had healthy, safe relationships with my pastor. So I didn't think anything about it. it fairly quickly turned into joking though. His demeanor is very polling. He described it like a very silly kind of teenager, he just joking. The first thing that really caught my attention, though, was like, that doesn't seem quite normal is he sent a gift to my work. And so he put a different name on it a pseudonym. And it was an inside joke about a logo from Flat Irons. I made the joke our son was into Pokémon, and I asked him, I said, Well, Patrick, you're wearing a Pokémon shirt. Matt, our son would love bat, like I didn't know you were a fan. And so he sent this to my office. And then that was the first time it caught my attention, texting, communication. And honestly, a lot of times it was about church. And so it was intermixed between what was happening at church and fake life, and then personal and personal questions and things like that. I didn't have any of this language then. But all of this was really heavily infused with love bombing, which I know now I didn't know at the time that just this excessive praise, this endearment that, honestly, it really ingratiates someone with you, you feel so valued and seen. But the intention there is for manipulative purposes. And so I really believed a lot of that. The more we communicated, the more he sought out my opinion on church issues. And I did I just felt flattered that he thought my perspective was valuable in that context, because I've never, that's never happened before within that kind of inner circle church group. Also, the thing that very quickly happened is he started depending on me for things. He would just often say, like how overwhelming his work is, and he's so far behind, and he's shepherding and writing sermons and doing all these things, and I'm a former Special Ed teacher, like teachers are helpers by nature. It's what we do. It's what we're good at. And so I thought, like, oh, my gosh, I have the skill set, I can help you out. Do you need me to proofread something? Pretty quickly, he said, You just take over doing all my emails for work. And I thought, well, I can respond to some of them, I guess, because it's what my pastor needed. And so that's really where it started. It clearly escalated into much worse, but I would say those are some of the initial grooming stages is the joking silly conversations, personal questions, and then it started creating that need of I need you to help me be successful in ministry. The other piece that I would feel maybe goes between if we're looking at severity or intensity of grooming, this one kind of straddles the line is he very quickly started sharing personal information with me about himself and about his colleagues and about the church. He told me some things about Crossroads. I mean, just things that I had no business knowing as a congregant, confidential information that he never should have shared with me about himself and others. And so at the time, I was giving advice and input, but I felt flattered that he wanted to share that with me as well. JULIE ROYS  30:14 And I'm sure as you know, now, your story is not an isolated incident. This is a pattern that plays out over and over again. And at least from sitting in my seat, the one characteristic that I see that makes people vulnerable is it's the ones that are really sincere, and helper type people. And it's so awful because it's actually such a virtuous thing that the victim possesses as a character quality that predators seem to be able to just sniff out and just be able to exploit. And I know that's how you feel, and what you feel Patrick did to you. When did you first realize, Oh, my goodness, this is a dangerous relationship? MORIAH SMOTHERS  30:59 Yeah, it was fairly early on, really. I don't know that I would have said dangerous, but I recognize that I was looking forward to him communicating with me. And so it was even small, but I thought, Man, that's not healthy. And I think a common belief is that anyone who is targeted , they're struggling in their marriage. Jack and I have a wonderful marriage. We did before I was groomed we were doing well during and praise the Lord, we have a wonderful marriage now. And so I'd like to debunk that, that it's only broken people or broken marriages that are targeted, because that's not true. But it was pretty early on, I realized I'm looking forward to him texting, and that was messed up. And this is the other spot that man, if I could do anything and go back, this is the spot I would go back and redo this is I thought I could handle it. Because I really again believed that my pastor would honor his fiduciary duty of putting me and my family's best interest above his own. And so I said, Hey, I need to talk to you about something, let's FaceTime. And so we hopped on a FaceTime. And I tell him, I said, This is so humiliating, I'm humiliated, and I know you're going to be embarrassed. But I'm looking forward to you contacting me, I think I'm attracted to you. And so we need to cut communication. And he reported this in the Christian Post very differently than what had happened. I think he said, I hooked him. But what really happened is that I asked him, I said, this is again, I didn't understand, I thought it was my fault. I said, we need to stop all communication totally like this has to be done and over. And he said your family is too important to our church, to the ministry. I love your family, we need to be in contact still. So do you trust me to pray about it? Absolutely. I'll trust my pastor at that time to pray about it for me. And I said, Sure, I understand that. I didn't want to lose our community. And that I trusted him to pray about it. And Julie the part I would go back and do is that was my moment in time to tell Jack, but I did not tell Jack about what was going on. Because Jack is a man of character and integrity, we would have been out of that church so fast. I didn't want to lose our people in our community group. And what I didn't realize is Patrick came back and I basically just opened the doors for full on grooming and abuse. And he said, Moriah, you know, I never do this. I never say this when I preach from the stage. But God has told me that if we stay above reproach, then he wants us to be together. And it was a strong implication of like, for ministry purposes. And I was floored by that. But Jack and I are happily married and we're doing great. I had no desire to be out of my marriage ever. And so I was really confused by that. But he was very convincing that this was a word from the Lord. So things accelerated from there in a really tragic way. JULIE ROYS  34:03 And this is spiritual abuse 101. It doesn't get much more blatant than God told me. And this should be a red flag for anyone. But again, we're not trained in how to identify these red flags. But when somebody says God told me, I mean, how do you argue with that, right? I mean, it's just really manipulative language that somebody would use. MORIAH SMOTHERS  34:28 He's my pastor, I trusted pastors, healthy relationships. My dad was a pastor, like, I had no reason to think there would be any kind of predatory behavior. Like none at the time. I clearly know better now, but. JULIE ROYS  34:43 So about this time is when the relationship progressed to you and Patrick meeting in public parking lots, which is kind of a next step. Would you describe the frequency of these meetings and the nature of them? MORIAH SMOTHERS  35:02 So I remember the first one he asked to me. So we could figure out this is a common phrase of how to manage the tension of being in communication, but it not being romantic. That was the first time we met. I vividly remember how sweaty my hands were. I knew I shouldn't be in this situation. But I also, truthfully, I still trusted him that, okay, if I meet with him, then we can figure out a way for this to be over. That didn't happen. And so we did on and off continue to meet. I would say it was, I honestly don't remember a number. I would say maybe once every couple weeks or so. It was almost always surrounding the situation of I tried to end it, he would say, let me figure this out, figure out a plan so you don't have to leave the church. And then let's meet as our last time. And so when we would meet honestly, like, we talk about church, we would talk about our personal lives. It was a lot about how he was struggling just being a pastor managing everything difficult relationships. I felt like I was his counselor most of the time, it was a lot of that. Sadly, it did progress. The abuse never became fully sexual, but there was hand holding and hugging things of that nature that happened. Yeah. JULIE ROYS  36:23 And he said, in the Christian Post article that at one point, you tried to kiss him, but he put the brakes on. True? Not true? MORIAH SMOTHERS  36:32 I don't remember that happening. There was embracing that happened. So I could see him thinking that's where it was going. JULIE ROYS  36:40 So you wrote in your timeline that you sent me that during this period, you felt like, quote, an addict living two lives. Would you explain that? MORIAH SMOTHERS  36:49 So the timeline I sent you I wrote in 2020, when things were very fresh. I had no language surrounding abuse, trauma, ACSA. And so that feeling was still is still correct of how I felt. What I know now, though, is what that is was trauma- bonding. That happens in a cycle of abuse of feeling like very affirmed, valued the love bombing, and then trying to end it. And it's like this very toxic cycle. And so that's what it was, is I, frankly, I hated who I was becoming. I love being a wife and a mom, and I love my job. So there were so many beautiful parts of my life. I loved the church I was serving, we were super engaged. So I felt like there were all these beautiful parts of my life. And then there was this really toxic, ugly thing that I didn't know how to get out of. Even as a grown woman educated, I didn't know how to get out of this. And so that's where I just felt so painfully torn. Because at this point, I knew things were bad. Like I knew they were very bad, because we were communicating every single day, multiple times a day, even when I would end the relationship, he would still use phrases from the stage to communicate with me that were like inside praises. He'd post on social media photos, but he put little photos like emojis in the corner that were messages to me, and the communication was all the time. So I now know it was trauma bonding, but the truth is, at the time, I saw no way out without imploding our life. And so I stayed in it, because I didn't know how not to. JULIE ROYS  38:30 And it's interesting. And I hear this all the time, the minimizing of the devastation that a relationship that didn't go there was no sexual intercourse, but had obviously a sexual component to it had this kind of grooming involved in this kind of trauma-bonding, love-bonding, I mean, all of these things, the devastation is massive, isn't it? MORIAH SMOTHERS  39:00 Yeah. And I think what's really hard to account for and if I'm just being really honest, I don't expect for anyone who hasn't experienced this or walked with someone to understand this. But physically, what happened was minimal compared to the emotional and the spiritual wreckage of feeling like your pastor should be doing the right thing, and he's not. I would say I ended this relationship. I use that term very loosely, it was abuse, but I ended it two or three times every single month. It was ongoing. That was most of our conversations with me trying to figure out how to get out of this. And there was a lot of communication in between as well but yeah, I think what's not accounted for when these situations come out, is just the emotional spiritual psychological damage that's left in its wake and it's horrific. JULIE ROYS  39:57 And Jack during this whole time, are you seeing red flags or things that are making you go, what's going on? Or was this pretty much hidden from your sight? JACK SMOTHERS  40:06 I had no evidence if that's what you mean. But what I did see was Moriah's natural demeanor is very light hearted, very life giving just a joy to be around. And that was stolen. She became darker she became her humor became vulgar, her language in terms of profanity that started to occur. And so I remember asking her one time, like, hey, something is changing about you, and I don't know what it is. Is it something that's wrong with our relationship? Or what can I do to get us back on track? But something is off, and I don't know what it is. And she couldn't answer because she was in a cycle of abuse at the time. MORIAH SMOTHERS  40:51 And Julie, so horribly as well that I would sometimes bring this home to Jack. Like I was so torn up about what was happening privately that I would put that on our marriage and say, but if you treated me like this, when it had nothing to do with Jack. Towards the end, I even started saying, let's move, let's apply for jobs, let's go somewhere else, because I thought that's my only way out of this. And so was pushing so hard to escape, but I made life pretty hard for Jack for a while, because I was not me anymore. JULIE ROYS  41:24 Moriah, eventually, your relationship with Patrick included sexting. In fact, that was the title of the Christian Post article, basically, How Sexting Brought This Pastor Down. Would you describe the nature, the frequency, who initiated the sexting? How did that happen? MORIAH SMOTHERS  41:46 But that also had a grooming process to it. I've never been a selfie person, I think I'm just old enough that I missed that kind of way. Patrick would send dozens of photos a day. And so I think there was a grooming process with getting me to that place. But the sexting did occur, it is incredibly painful to talk about still. I don't remember the frequency, it wasn't truthfully, many times what I would consider overt sexting. But the ongoing dialogue for us was highly flirtatious and inappropriate. What I would say was over happened, I don't know probably less than 10 times, and it was always followed by like, guilt, shame, that can't happen again. And then we were back there. JULIE ROYS  42:33 All of this did remain secret until May of 2020. And that's when this police report came to the attention of pastors at the Hills church. How was there a police report that made this apparent to them? MORIAH SMOTHERS  42:47 I honestly I still don't have all the information. Because when everything did eventually come out, we were very much so left in the dark. So I don't fully understand all the details to this. But my knowledge, what I do know is that there was a time we were meeting in a public parking lot. We'd met there several times, the people working in that location had noticed it. And so after so many times of meeting there they called the police to check because they thought it was odd that two cars were parked there. I think we were there after hours even. And so a policeman came out just said, Hey, what's going on? Nothing was going on. And so, it wasn't any kind of like, charges or anything. It was just documentation that we had been there. And so I don't know the process of how that actually got to the Hills, but it did. Once that happened, I didn't know anything about that. I think we were on vacation as a family. And what I've been told not being involved in that is that Dave and Daryl, the other pastors, met with Patrick, confronted him with what was in the police report, which wasn't much information, just that we'd met there several times, and it was documented. Patrick spun a story that there was nothing going on, that he and I had only met there once. And Jack and I haven't seen this report. So we're not really sure what's in it. That he said we had only met there once, and that we were handing off a binder or a book or something. And so he had been there before, but I hadn't. And so very shortly after that, Patrick was also instructed not to contact me because they wanted to verify his story. Patrick got in contact with me immediately said this is exactly what happened. I remember he said, I took a bullet for us. And so you're gonna get called into a meeting with Dave and an elder, and this is what you need to say to backup my story. And so I knew what was going on. We got home from our vacation. Dave called and asked me to a meeting, and I asked if Jack could go with me, and he said no, he cannot. And so I think again, I was still I was not in a good place mentally and emotionally. I think I was hoping that if Jack was there, it would come out and maybe I could be free from this, but Jack wasn't allowed there. And so I remember sitting in the parking lot of where I was going to meet the pastor and the elder. And Patrick called me and he said, these are the exact lies I told. If you want to save your family, my family, the church, and also they were fundraising for a new building at the time. And that money he indicated to me was associated with him, because he had raised those funds. He said, If you want to save all these things,  then you need to backup my story. And I consented, or I agreed to backup his story. And so I think in the Christian Post article, it read very much so like I eagerly and enthusiastically agreed to lie. But I felt very much if I'm gonna lose my family and my church, then I'll lie. And so I did lie. I sat down with the pastor and the elder. They very much so wanted to hear the version of the situation, I told them, so I didn't have to lie much, because they wanted to believe it. And so I did lie in that situation. JULIE ROYS  46:03 And did you volunteer to step down from the advisory board at this time? MORIAH SMOTHERS  46:08 I did. Yeah, that was the primary way Patrick had access to me just individually without Jack around. Otherwise, Jack and I did ministry together, we were pretty much always together. So I said, I'm happy to step down from that. I guess that's appropriate. And they didn't want to raise any red flags about why I was stepping down. So they told me no, please don't do that. JULIE ROYS  46:28 Wow. And you secretly were trying to get out. MORIAH SMOTHERS  46:33 I was trying to get out in a lot of ways. But except being fully truthful with Jack, which would have got me out. JULIE ROYS  46:42 So Jack, what was your response when you heard the rendition of the story that Moriah told you? JACK SMOTHERS  46:50 The story that I received was, she made a silly mistake and met Patrick in a parking lot to receive a binder about church. Sounds pretty innocent when you are in a loving relationship with someone who has, over a long period of time, established a firm foundation of trust, you're raised in a family where people treat you in a trustworthy way. It builds a lot of gullibility in a way and so I didn't really second guess it. I just said, Oh, man, that was silly. Let's just learn from it and move on. And in retrospect, that was maybe not the most loving thing to do. The most loving thing to do would have been to ask more questions, if I felt uneasy about it. Yeah. JULIE ROYS  47:33 Yeah. It's tough, though. You don't want to be the jealous husband, who doesn't believe. It's a very difficult situation to be in. At this point, Moriah, you asked Patrick to basically get some outside help, right? Like, I mean, you knew he had this outside Advisory Council board, whatever you want to call it, mentors that he looked up to. How did he respond when you asked him to get this help? MORIAH SMOTHERS  48:02 Yeah. So all the previous times I'd ended it, it was really just between the two of us and I just want it to be done. But this time, I said, clearly, I felt like this was, again, I was spiritually very twisted. But I feel like this is God telling us like this has to be done. This was our chance to end it. And he didn't feel like he could end it, that he needed me. And so I asked him to just, I begged him, I'd said, like, please just talk to somebody tell somebody what is going on. Because this entire time, I had some real questions like even like I said, this an affair, isn't it? Nice to no, because it's not physical like that it's not. And I asked him, I said, please just talk to somebody get their input. And so he told me, he did talk to a couple people. One of them was a former colleague and friend that was in his previous church in Texas. And then also he communicated that he talked to Jim Burgen about it. I didn't know either of these people at all. But he told me that he was advised by both of them to not share any of this information with people at the Hills, the other pastors, they just didn't need to know the details, and it would cause a difficult situation. And so I thought he had been advised by wise counselors, which is what I asked him to do. JULIE ROYS  49:19 And of course, you have no way of knowing whether that actually happened or not. But I did reach out to Jim Burgen, and asked him specifically about this, about whether or not he ever encouraged Patrick not to confess the details of his relationship with you to the church. And this is what Jim Burger said. JIM BURGEN  49:37 I knew they were having struggles. I didn't know he was meeting in cars with women. Not at all. And if I had known that, I would have absolutely done the opposite of what you're hearing; cover it up, don't disclose. It would have been the opposite of that is you've got to cut this relationship. You need to go to Savannah, you need to go to your leaders. I was fresh off the heels of sabbatical. I was on a sabbatical for six months at the end of 2019, dealing just with a lot of exhaustion. So at that point, I would have been really raw and open because I was in such a tremendous, intimate relationship with my elders. They knew the inside out of my heart. I would have pointed in that direction too. Whether he had that or not, I don't know. But that's what my advice would have been. I never, never ever in a million years would say, cover this up, keep it a secret, don't give details because basically what I've been counseling this keep going just don't get caught, which would be absolutely the opposite of what I would ever have counseled anybody. JULIE ROYS  50:36 Again, Jim Burgen weighing in on his perspective of what happened. It didn't take a long time after this whole police report surfaced for the truth to come out. So apparently, the church sends Patrick off on, I'm sorry, this study break. I've seen so many study breaks. For pastors, they get caught with things like this, you wish they would just be upfront with what's going on. But instead, it's covered up from the church. And I guess he needs to do more study about something. But during that study break what was happening between the two of you? MORIAH SMOTHERS  51:15 Yeah, so during the study break, keep in mind, I was still on the advisory board, because they hadn't taken me off. This was also not disclosed to the advisory board at all about what was really going on, their concerns. We were still in communication. I think there were attempts to slow the communication down, that it was frequent. There was also up until this point, things had been bad. But again, most of our communication was just like silly, everyday things, light hearted. Things got dark after this and really heavy in a way that it hadn't been. There was a lot of like power reversals. And I remember Patrick being very clear that like, I have control of this situation. And he would want me to like verbalize consent at that. There was a situation where some pastor I have no clue who it was, it was just in the news that he had probably an affair, which is the language they use, which would have been abuse. And I said something to Patrick about it. And I said, “Hey, I read this story. Did you read that?” He had. And I said, “Doesn't that sound like what's happening here?” And he like, forced me to verbally agree that's not what's happening here. This is consensual, and so it just got really heavy. He also started pushing to blame. He was like, let's reassess when we're gonna be together. And I mean, I remember the clearest time again, only in hindsight of being gaslit was, I was just feeling very convicted. And I said something like Patrick, I'm not leaving Jack, I have no desire to end my marriage. I'm not doing that. And he somehow flipped it around, and I ended up apologizing to him, that I would even think he might ask me to do that. And so just really, really sick, twisted. But the communication was still often. JULIE ROYS  54:07 And how old was he at this point? MORIAH SMOTHERS  54:09 So if this was in 2020, he was probably 32 ish? JULIE ROYS  54:13 Thiry-two. It's a lot of responsibility for someone extremely young, really. And he's in his late 20s and pastoring a church of 7000 previous to this. It's just a little bit stunning that someone so young would be given that kind of responsibility. In September 2020, then I'm guessing he comes back from his summer break. And you met in person a few times. Would you describe what happened in those meetings? MORIAH SMOTHERS  54:45 Yeah, so all of those were to wrap things up to end things like again, there was this kind of mounting pressure. It just has to be that and frankly, I was starting to be a mess. Like I had been able to keep my life together pretty much. He would actually say, I know this is hard for you. But just let me shoulder the pressure of keeping this together. I was not doing well at that point in time. And so we met in a parking lot. And again, naively thought, like this is the last time, but that was, every time I was nervous and felt like oh my gosh, would have foreseen and it was, it was scary. That was the first time that he scared me, at the way he was behaving, and I actually had the thought, like, I hope I'm able to get out of this car. And it was just, it felt like things were moving really fast. And so again, I was hopeful that maybe that was the last time. But communication just continued, even though there's so many last times that communication continued still. JULIE ROYS  55:46 So the following month, October 2020, Patrick's wife, Savannah, she discovered some of the messages between the two of you the sexting, I'm guessing she saw? MORIAH SMOTHERS  55:57 Yeah. I don't know exactly what was seen. You read those? Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of it was just silliness. But then there were things that absolutely indicated that there was sexting and it was highly inappropriate. JULIE ROYS  56:10 You found out about this from Patrick, right, when Savannah found out what was his demeanor and reaction? MORIAH SMOTHERS  56:19 Well, I knew something was a little wrong. We had been communicating. And Julie, I don't think I mentioned this, but early on through the grooming, it was mainly text, emails, and then it switched through social media platforms. And so he was always very thorough, reminding me like, hey, delete our messages, delete our conversations. And we were communicating with an app Words with Friends. We were playing a game on there, and there's a chat feature. And so we'd been communicating, I gotten distracted with something, and had just left our conversation because something happened quickly. And when I came back, I messaged him again, and there was never a response. And so I knew something seemed different because he always responded. But he didn't that time. And so it was all through the evening. I never got a response. I knew something was going on. I think that was I shared maybe a little bit with you at that time. I've minimized I heavily minimized what was going on to Jack. But I did disclose a little bit to him. And it was sometime in the middle of the night, I got an email from a random email address. But the email address and how it was worded was like a lot of inside jokes between us. And the phrasing was really strange. It didn't the email it was from Patrick. We know now he had all this like technology taken. So I don't know how he did this. But he basically said that Savannah found messages. And then he included a bulleted list to say like, these are the lies we've told remember them and back them up about what it was. But the email sounded like silly, like almost joking. It was not like, devastated. It wasn't angry. It was a very strange message. When I knew that this had been discovered, I freaked out. And so I deleted the email, I never responded and I like permanently deleted it from my Gmail. And the next day, he sent another one from the same email and it was just, sorry, with a crying emoji and I deleted that one as well. I did end up telling Jack eventually that he had sent that. So I did know something was coming. But I didn't know the fallout that was about to happen. JULIE ROYS  58:30 Jack, how did you find out? JACK SMOTHERS  58:32 Moriah disclosed a little bit of what was going on. But really it was Dave Bowersox who called and shared the communication, the sexting conversations that had occurred, and in a PDF document. And so I read through those, and yeah, that's how I found out. Of course I was devastated at the time. But my really, I think God was very gracious over me at that point in time because all I could think about was our kids. Sorry. Two wonderful and amazing children that they deserve a safe home. They deserve to feel protected. And this was an attack on our family. We have a great example in scripture of Christ protects his bride, how Christ dies to himself to protect his family. So that's where we at. Sometimes protecting your family looks like getting on your knees and praying. Sometimes protecting your family looks like asking a lot of questions. listening intently. I was thankful that in our job, so in higher education, we are required to go through training. I believe it's every year, we're required to complete these modules just on what is Title IX, sexual harassment, all these things. There's one thing that stuck out to me. And it was where there's a power imbalance, there's no such thing as consent. And so I thought, okay, professors, student, doctor, patient, Pastor, congregant. These are all similar relationships where there's a direct power imbalance, there could not have been consent, and I'm smashing all this together. This was not all at one time, this was weeks or maybe months of reflecting and trying to absorb the information that we have. It wasn't until probably a year after it all came out that we really understood ACSA and that entire framework. MORIAH SMOTHERS  1:00:48 But Jack was the first person to raise this piece of information, like how is there consent there as your pastor? And some of the contextual things that I'd never recommend this for anybody, but we were quarantined at the time, with COVID. So we couldn't be with anybody. And so we can laugh about it now a little bit, but it was at the time, just heartbreaking. I was so broken and devastated and confused. It looked like I was coming out of a cult. Like there's this like trauma fog that descends. I didn't know what to do. I followed Jack everywhere in our house. I couldn't be away from him. And so he's grieving and mourning, and I'm following him around and we're quarantined and have little children that were trying to – it was a mess. So everything we did was over Zoom about all the disclosures. JULIE ROYS  1:01:41 So how did you feel the church responded to you, Moriah? MORIAH SMOTHERS  1:01:45 I don't want to over exaggerate this. And I can share details. The abuse from my pastor was horrible. The way the church responded was ten times more traumatizing than the abuse. JULIE ROYS  1:02:04 That concludes part one of my interview with Moriah and Jack Smothers, and we're ending on a bit of a cliffhanger. But this is something that I've heard over and over again from victims. The original abuse is horrific, for sure. But it's easier to understand that the church can have one bad apple than to realize that it's not just one bad apple. There's a whole system protecting and managing that one bad apple, often at the expense of the victim. And you'll hear that part of Moriah and Jack's story in part two, and it's such an important story. So I hope you'll be watching for that to release in just a few days. But thank you so much for listening to The Roys Report. And if you've appreciated this podcast and our investigative work, would you please consider giving a gift to support us? As I've said before, we don't have big corporate sponsors or large donors. We have you, the survivors, advocates, allies and church leaders who care about ridding the church of predators and making it a safer place. Also, this month if you give a gift of $30 or more, we'll send you Christy Boulware's book, Nervous Breakthrough; Finding Freedom From Fear and Anxiety in a World That Feeds It. This is such a great resource for anyone struggling with anxiety and panic attacks, or really any mental health issue. So to get the book and support the Roys report, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

Kentucky State University professor Dr. Wilfred Reilly fills in for Kruser as he talks to Gene Crume President of Judson University and radio host Vince Coakley in hour 2.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What if you could become the best version of yourself as a Nonprofit Leader?Dr Jack Groppel, co-founder of the Johnson & Johnson Human Performance Institute and current professor at Judson University, Elgin, IL joins Tim and Nathan on today's episode.  His experience in working with world class athletes and sports teams to coaching top business leaders, provides plenty of real world thought on the topic of  leadership.Our fascinating conversation is packed with insights that can help you become a more effective, impactful leader. From the discussion on Energy Management vs Time Management  to leading as a "Corporate Athlete" and then considering the idea include  Agape Love as part of our leadership, Jack brings challenge after challenge to our quest for effective leadership.Dr Jack Groppel can be contacted on Linked-in here.The Hosts of The Practice of NonProfit Leadership:Tim Barnes serves as the Executive Vice President of International Association for Refugees (IAFR) and can be contacted at tim@iafr.org. Nathan Ruby serves as the Executive Director of Friends of the Children of Haiti (FOTCOH) and can be contacted at nruby@fotcoh.org.All opinions and views expressed by the hosts are their own and do not necessarily represent those of their respective organizations.

What a pleasure it was to conduct this fascinating interview with a humble leader, pioneer, and USPTA Hall of Fame recipient, Dr Jack Groppel. Emma has followed Jack's career over the years, watching him present live many times and he has always openly shared his secrets to success. In this episode, Jack talks about the 3 C's (and an extra leadership quality) when it comes to being the best coach you can be. He talks about his early career from studying wildlife biology to those 17 words that one of his professors said, which ultimately changed the direction of his life. He talks about what the business world can learn from sports and how it is important to be humble in your success. Check out some of the highlights below; 1.31: Worst coaching moment: Know when to refer your client to someone else. You can everything to everyone. Sometimes you need to eat humble pie. 2.58: Best coaching moment: Working with Michael Chang - then he goes on to win the French Open three months later. Be humble and be careful what you credit for. Your players still need to execute. 6.56: Sliding Doors: From wildlife biology to having a mentor that believes in you. Dr. Charles Dillman, associate professor of kinesiology, told Jack these 17 words after only one semester that ultimately changed the trajectory of his career: ‘If you really apply yourself, you could become a pioneering leader in the science of tennis performance.' 11.35: What makes a Great Coach? (Connection, Character, and Curiosity) Connection: No one teaches us how to listen - true connection allows for this. Character: Who are you at your core? Why do you coach? Curiosity: What are you deeply curious about? 15.39: Why are more people not curious? Be careful not to get set in your ways and don't just coach the way that you were coached because it worked for you. Find solutions to problems. 17.07: Why do you do what you do? (Do not judge your answer but know your WHY) 18.19: What matters most RIGHT NOW? 20.03: Tennis saved me. 22.00: What can the Corporate world learn from tennis? Focus on the 3 pillars: Physiology - how the brain lights up when you move. (Microbursts) Psychology - What is productive behavior? Nutrition - Food is a drug - how are you eating? 23.55: Agape love - unconditional love (to love thy neighbor in the workplace) Late 80's early 90's - Purpose was important but no one was talking about it. If you were in the workplace prior to 1995 - you were non-contactable. But now we are accessible 24 hours, 7 days, 365 days a year. So who is teaching: Boundaries - how to set boundaries Intentional - how to be intentional with our time Choices - how are you making the right choices 27.19: Conflict can be healthy. Start with what we have in common. 28.39: Work/Life Integration - read the article here: https://www.shrm.org/ResourcesAndTools/hr-topics/employee-relations/Pages/From-WorkLife-Balance-to-WorkLife-Integration.aspx 30.04: Follow John Wooden is considered the greatest NCAA basketball head coach of all time. 31.08: What makes a great leader? Character (with yourself) and care (for others). The Coaching Podcast is sponsored by The Sampson Agency - a talent entertainment and sports management company owned and operated by Tina Samara. Visit: www.thesampsonagency.com or email: tina@transitioncoach4athletes.com To learn more about becoming a workplace coach or advancing your coaching skills, visit: www.opendoorcoachingusa.com or email: info@emmadoyle.com.au About Jack Groppel, Former Illini men's tennis coach (1978-81) | Co-founder, Johnson & Johnson Human Performance Institute. Jack Groppel has been inducted into the United States Professional Tennis Association (USPTA) Hall of Fame. Groppel has been a profound influencer in the world of athletics in sports science. Dr. Jack Groppel is an internationally recognized authority and pioneer in the science of human performance, and an expert in fitness and nutrition. Dr. Groppel is an Adjunct Professor of Management at the J.L. Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. Dr. Groppel is the author of The Corporate Athlete. He developed the Corporate Athlete concept for his training program while serving as an associate professor of kinesiology and bioengineering at the University of Illinois helping both business executives and athletes increase performance levels. In 1992, he combined his program with Dr. Jim Loehr to form the Human Performance Institute, formerly LGE Performance Systems, Inc. A fellow in the American College of Sports Medicine, Dr. Groppel is also a board certified nutritionist in the American College of Nutrition and a former Research Associate to the U.S. Olympic Training Center. He served for 16 years as the Chairman of the National Sport Science Committee of the United States Tennis Association. Sliding Doors Story: Seventeen words — spoken by a UI associate professor of kinesiology — would change Jack Groppel's life in a way even he couldn't imagine at the time. It was the mid-1970s and Groppel, fresh off earning his bachelor's degree in wildlife biology, was about to begin working toward UI degree No. 2, in kinesiology. “Sport science was a relatively young field of study” at the time, he remembers. “I had played tennis at Illinois and loved sport but didn't realize that the study of sport science was even a discipline. “The department head, Dr. Rollin Wright, extended me grace and admitted me into the master of science program. But my greatest memory is of Dr. Charles Dillman, associate professor of kinesiology, telling me these words after only one semester: ‘If you really apply yourself, you could become a pioneering leader in the science of tennis performance.' “That was all it took. “I went straight through my MS degree, studying and writing about tennis science, went to Florida State for my Ph.D., then got hired as the men's tennis coach at Illinois and a professor in kinesiology. I later became the chair of the National Sport Science Committee of the United States Tennis Association, received tenure at Illinois, left tenure at Illinois to start my own business, sold that business to Johnson & Johnson and am now back in higher education at Judson University. “All this because of Dr. Wright's belief in me, and Dr. Dillman's encouraging words on that crisp, windy day in May 1974 in Freer Hall.” Connect with Jack below. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackgroppel/ Related Articles VIDEO: Jack Groppel on 'The Critical Key to Harnessing the Science of Human Performance' FORBES: A sports scientist's Rx for all leaders

When Mark and I went through the dark season in our marriage, it's no surprise that we sought out counseling. However, what most people find surprising is that our counselor focused more on untangling our childhoods than our skills as a couple. That was exactly what we needed in order to restore our marriage and move forward!We all have a past, but what we don't often realize is how much what happened “then” affects us now. (Even if your "then" wasn't very negative!) This is the topic we are going to dig into in this conversation and it applies to every person, even if you aren't married.Helping me navigate this is Pastor Elliott Anderson, who is the Assistant Professor of Psychology at Judson University and the Pastor at Solid Rock Church in Elgin, IL. Elliott's areas of expertise include counseling, identity formation, sexuality, addiction, adoption, foster care, marriage, family, and the integration of faith and psychology. He's the author of several books and co-host of the podcast Love and Life Media. When I learned about his resources, I couldn't help but notice how similarly he speaks and thinks to Mark and I!In this conversation, you'll hear:Why the key to your future often lies in the pastThe three A's that tear down intimacyThe importance of making the decision to find healingAnd so much more!I really enjoyed talking with Elliott and am eager to share this episode with you!Show Notes:  https://jillsavage.org/elliott-anderson-142

Dr. Jack Groppel, Professor of Exercise & Sport Science, Professor of Business, and the Faculty Athletic Representative at Judson University, Jack also served as the co-founder of the Johnson & Johnson Human Performance Institute. He is an internationally recognized authority and pioneer in the science of human performance, speaker, and author and was recently inducted into the United States Professional Tennis Association Hall of Fame.In this episode, Dr. Groppel discusses his journey from being a tennis player to pioneering the science of tennis performance. He shares tips on controlling your thoughts and replacing negative narratives with positive alternatives. Additionally, he emphasizes the importance of rituals and how they can help you achieve an ideal performance state. Whether you're an athlete or not, these tips and techniques for mental fitness can benefit you. Get your copy of Personal Socrates: Better Questions, Better Life  Connect with Marc >>>  Website | LinkedIn | Instagram | Twitter Drop a review and let me know what resonates with you about the show!Thanks as always for listening and have the best day yet!*Behind the Human is proudly recorded in a Canadian made Loop Phone Booth*Special props

All of us face loneliness. We need to acknowledge and move through loneliness to be empowered and encouraged in our relationships. Last week I gave a message on loneliness at Judson University and we wanted to share it with you. There are three universal circumstances that automatically generate loneliness. I used the acronym TFL (tackle for loss for you football fans) for these 3 life conditions: Transitions Fear Loss Loneliness is inherent to these 3 conditions and therefore, it's an unavoidable aspect of life; but we can abate it and even make peace with it. Loneliness is especially challenging during Valentine's week—whether we're single and wishing we weren't or we're feeling lonely in the context of our romantic relationship. Our team at Love and Life and the Love & Life community are here to help you throughout Valentine's and beyond! Elliott Anderson Work with Elliott, Books, & More: https://linktr.ee/pastorelliottanderson Dr. Karin Website: http://loveandlifemedia.com/ Empowered Dating Playbook: smarturl.it/EmpoweredDatingBook Instagram: @dr.karin Single is the New Black: Audiobook Audible: smarturl.it/SITNB-Audible iTunes: smarturl.it/SITNB-iTunes --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/love-and-life-media/support

It's time for another Love & Life Live! Psychotherapist Elliott Anderson invited me to join him at Judson University last week in his Interpersonal Relationships class. In part 1 of the live, we delve into: The characteristics of authentic intimate relationships. The characteristics of intimate conversations. Healthy, appropriate pacing in friendship development. The characteristics of long-term romantic relationships. The weaknesses in connection that create relationship uncertainty. Find out if your relationship has what it takes to go the distance in part 1 of our latest Love & Life Live! Elliott Anderson Work with Elliott, Books, & More: https://linktr.ee/pastorelliottanderson Dr. Karin Website: http://loveandlifemedia.com/ Empowered Dating Playbook: smarturl.it/EmpoweredDatingBook Instagram: @dr.karin Single is the New Black: Audiobook Audible: smarturl.it/SITNB-Audible iTunes: smarturl.it/SITNB-iTunes --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/love-and-life-media/support

David Bunker, who currently serves as the chaplain of Judson University's Music Business and Entrepreneurship program, and has a long history as both a music industry leader and as an artist and songwriter himself, joins JJT to talk about the idea of "artist care" from the perspective of both creatives and those who wish to serve them. Bunker has been deeply embedded in the True Tunes DNA since John first shared his vision for a store, venue, magazine, and community that would dare to engage music - and art in general - with brain, heart, and guts fully engaged. John was just 16 years old then - the newly minted "music buyer" at a Christian bookstore in Wheaton, IL, and Bunker had recently transitioned from being in the Terry Taylor-produced band Shelter to working for a record label. "He was the first adult to take me and my crazy ideas seriously," John remembers. "And all through our journey - from the exciting highs to the devastating lows, he has been by my side with words of wisdom, compassion, encouragement, and care."   Bunker, who is also a poet, author, and leader of creative care retreats, joins JJT nearly 35 years into their friendship to talk about the growing importance of Artist Care.   If you would like to support the show, please consider joining our Patreon community or dropping us a one-time tip and check out our NEW MERCH!   For more info visit the SHOW NOTES page at TrueTunes.com/Bunker-ArtistCare   Also, don't miss David Bunker's special appearance on the BLITZEN TRAPPER episode of the podcast. 

If you can listen to this episode with Jacqueline Ruiz and not get inspired, then it's definitely time to check your pulse! Jackie is a 29x author, entrepreneur and pilot who does not believe there is anything she cannot do. Raised in Mexico City, Jackie and her family moved to the US at 14 and she used every possible resource available to conquer her dreams. In the challenging moments, Jackie turns to gratitude to get her through, and is thankful for the people who have been placed in her life. She believes that sharing our stories is powerful and necessary and we are certainly glad she shared hers with us. Jackie will be an interviewer at the World Leaders Forum, hosted by Judson University, which you can attend on August 22, 2022 to hear more from Jackie.

(00:00-12:02): Today is the National Day of Prayer. The national temperature seems to be running a little high. Kirsten Powers posted on Twitter: "If you think abortion is wrong, don't get an abortion. It's not ok to impose your religious view on others. Why should a Jew or Muslim, for eg, have to live up to your interpretation of the Bible? If you don't get this, please don't ever use the phrase ‘religious freedom' again." (12:02-21:59): Social Media Water Cooler: What was your first job? What did you learn from it? (21:59-30:38): Natalie Rodriquez is the Executive Director for Hopeful Beginnings. She joined Brian and Aubrey to talk about the work Hopeful Beginnings does supporting women through the challenges of pregnancy and parenting, and creating stable families through adoption. (30:38-39:35): Some churches seem to be growing more conservative while others are becoming more progressive. If this is the way more and more churches will go, what do those of us who aren't open and affirming as church leaders do? think? lead? How do we disciple with wisdom? (39:35-49:06): Michael Love is the Senior Pastor for Trinity Baptist Community Church, co-chair of the Fox Valley Spiritual Council, Executive Chaplain of the McHenry Co. Sheriff's Dept and serves on the Board Of Trustees for Judson University. He joined Brian and Aubrey to talk about the 2022 Community Prayer Breakfast at Judson University on May 11th. Visit JudsonU.edu for more information. (49:06-56:33): What do you think people are searching for in life? What role should the church play in finding it? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Kathy Barnette joins David Webb to discuss the latest news coming out of the PA Senate forum and the political/financial stories of the week.

(00:00-05:27): Brain From is out this week, and Aubrey was joined for this show by Aaron Andries. Aaron is the Worship Director with Renewal Church, a writer and producer at Judson University and a musician with the band Graveyards to Gardens. (05:27-14:07): Aaron shared a song call “Run” he wrote just before the pandemic and talked about how it came together. (14:07- 23:48): Aubrey and Aaron talked about the creative process and how to get started and overcome fear. (23:48-31:50): Aaron shared a song called “Lost Romance” and talked about what it's like writing a song about a specific person.  (31:50-48:40): Aaron shared his song called “Precious Moments” and talked about how Pastors can make sure their kids have a positive experience with church. (48:40-59:39): Aubrey and Aaron talked about Aaron's experience with overcoming burnout with the church during the pandemic and tackling the issue of racism in the church. (59:39-1:09:00): Aubrey and Aaron wrapped up the show with Aaron sharing a song called “Where I Belong” See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's a trip down memory lane in this week's Dabble in Babble. Join Dan with his former student, Chris Kerswell, as they discuss their perspectives on teaching and learning at Judson University, a strict Baptist university in the suburbs of Chicago. Dan tells his experience teaching as a gay professor for an institution that listed being gay as a fireable offense in the faculty handbook, the two discuss Chris's rise in the NAIA tennis rankings, and, as usual, how great it is to move from Chicagoland to Florida. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/dabbleinbabble/support

We all desire deep, genuine intimacy. But so often, it feels incredibly difficult to cultivate! Sometimes we're so infatuated we rush things. Other times, we fear getting close because we've been hurt so many times before. In our first Love & Life Live, psychotherapist Elliott Anderson joins me to speak to Judson University students about how to develop and cultivate deep, authentic, lasting romantic intimacy. Specifically, we discuss: What's the definition of intimacy? How can we distinguish between intimacy and infatuation? Is there a concrete process for building intimacy? What do psychologists say about finding the “total package”? Is it possible? How clarifying your values—before you're in a relationship—will help you build intimacy with your future partner. Can texting build true intimacy? What if I don't have much relationship experience? Why spending time apart in the initial months of a relationship can actually enhance intimacy. Cultivating true intimacy—even if you have an anxious attachment and he has an avoidant one. Elliott provides concretes steps creating a loving, fulfilling, deeply intimate partnership! Rev. Elliott Anderson, M.A. Work with Elliott: https://loveandlifemedia.com/work-with-elliott-anderson Instagram: @pastorelliottanderson Dr. Karin Website: http://loveandlifemedia.com/ Empowered Dating Playbook: smarturl.it/EmpoweredDatingBook Instagram: @dr.karin Single is the New Black - Audiobook Audible: smarturl.it/SITNB-Audible iTunes: smarturl.it/SITNB-iTunes --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/love-and-life-media/support

(00:00-8:17): Brian and Aubrey reflected on the life of Saint Patrick.  “10 Facts About St Patrick” “The Prayer of Saint Patrick” (8:17-20:50): Steve Carter, Pastor, Speaker, and Author, joined Brian and Aubrey to talk about his book, “The Thing Beneath the Thing: What's Hidden Inside (and What God Helps Us Do About It).” Steve will be speaking at the AM 1160 LIFT Event on Tuesday March 29th at Judson University. This is a free event for pastors and ministry leaders. You can learn more and register at 1160hope.com Learn more about Steve and his book at stevecarter.org and connect with him on Twitter at @steveryancarter (20:50-29:21): On this episode of The Social Media Water Cooler, Brian and Aubrey talked about songs they love to sing in the car. (29:21-37:23): Natalie Rodriguez, Executive Director of Hopeful Beginnings of St. Mary's, joined Brian and Aubrey to talk about the counseling services they offer to those experiencing grief and loss after a miscarriage.  Learn more about Hopeful Beginnings at hopefulbeginning.org or call 847-870-8181 And tune in to Hopeful Beginnings Sundays at 12pm (CT) on AM 1160 Hope for Your Life. (37:23-45:15): Brian and Aubrey shared their thoughts on Mark Galli's blog post, “A Response to the Christianity Today Article.” They also reflected on Timothy Dalrymple's Christianity Today editorial, “We Fell Short in Protecting Our Employees.” (45:15-55:39): Christie Anthony, Director of Operations for SOS International, and Hannah Weehunt, Director of Marketing for SOS International, joined Aubrey to share about the ministry impact of SOS International.  Give online at 1160hope.com or call 866-343-4717 (55:39-1:05:26): Aubrey hosted a St. Patrick's Day Quiz with Brian and special guest, Kevin Sampson, Aubrey's husband and the Lead Pastor of Renewal Church in West Chicago.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week we talk to Dr. Jeremy M. Butler. We discuss early career Officer and the need for their consistent training.Dr. Jeremy M. Butler is an educator, defensive tactics instructor, scholar in the psychology of physical training, and former police officer. Low self-confidence and a desire to protect himself from local gangs on the south side of Chicago led him to find his passion in studying martial arts at the age of 12. At age 24, he opened Pagoda Rebirth Martial Arts, while also pursuing a career in law enforcement. During his seven years as a police officer, he worked in various roles including serving as a control tactics instructor and verbal de-escalation instructor for multiple departments via the regional police mobile training unit. During this time, Dr. Butler also pursued and earned a PhD in Kinesiology from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.His area of expertise is in the development and long term maintenance of physical and mental skills for handling physical conflict. He offers a variety of trainings and speaking engagements targeting law enforcement as well as civilians in physical and mental preparation for potentially violent encounters. Over the past 15 years, he has taught martial arts and/or defensive tactics programs in Chicago, Urbana-Champaign, Bloomington-Normal, and Los Angeles. Dr. Butler is currently an Assistant Professor of Health Promotion and Performance at Judson University and an instructor at the University of Illinois Police Training Institute. Support the show (https://paypal.me/lxvaldivia?country.x=US&locale.x=en_US)

Raised by strangers in Chicago's Cabrini-Green neighborhood, MelindaJoy Mingo's life journey began with unthinkable challenges that continued into adulthood as she later lost several close family members—including her husband—and eventually found herself living out of her car in a Walmart parking lot. But along the way, she encountered selfless love in unexpected places that led her to realize her pain had a purpose attached to it—to bridge cultural divides and help people to see one another through the eyes of Jesus. Ultimately, this led to her writing The Colors of Culture, birthed from her own lived experiences that gave her the empathy to see and value those on the margins. Join our conversation with MelindaJoy as she shares about the ways her story has led her and others to share in the beauty of diverse relationships.About the Guest:MelindaJoy Mingo is an ordained minister, professor, cultural capacity expert, and entrepreneur based in Colorado Springs. She is the founder of Je-Nai International Ministry and Significant Life Change, Inc., and has developed multicultural initiatives both at home and abroad. She holds a PhD in global leadership and an honorary doctorate in urban transformative leadership and has been widely recognized for her teaching and training in crosscultural competency.SPECIAL OFFER | Save 40% on MelindaJoy's book The Colors of Cultureand get free US shipping when you use promo code EVN40 at checkout.About the Hosts:Formerly an editor at IVP, Ed Gilbreath is currently an executive leader at Christianity Today; he earned his bachelor's in communication arts from Judson University and a master's in philosophy of history from Olivet Nazarene University. He is also the author of two IVP books: Reconciliation Blues and Birmingham Revolution. Follow Ed on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.Helen Lee is the director of product innovation at IVP; she is also the author of The Missional Mom and The Race-Wise Family, co-authored with Dr. Michelle Reyes. Helen also serves as the producer of The Every Voice Now Podcast and as the executive producer of Get in The Word with Truth's Table and The Disrupters. Follow Helen on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. Support the show

https://entrearchitect.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/2017-05-0919.19.24-1-scaled.jpg ()The Sole Practitioner Architecture Firm Edward J Shannon, AIA is a Sole Practitioner Architect (SPA) in Des Moines, Iowa.  His practice specializes in small projects consisting of light commercial, residential, and historic preservation. He prides himself in being an SPA and sees the solopreneur model as an asset, instead of a liability. Mr. Shannon was an Assistant Professor of Architecture at Judson University in Elgin, Illinois where he taught Professional Practice and helped the program earn NAAB accreditation. Mr. Shannon also established and administers the Sole Practitioner Architects professional Facebook page that currently has over 1,300 members. This week at EntreArchitect Podcast, The Sole Practitioner Architecture Firm with Edward J Shannon. Connect with Edward online at http://EdwardJShannon.com (Edward J Shannon) and https://www.soloarchitect.org (Sole Practitioner Architects), or find him on https://www.facebook.com/EdwardJShannonArchitect/ (Facebook) and https://www.linkedin.com/in/edward-j-shannon-aia-336a5a9/ (LinkedIn). Check out his book https://www.soloarchitect.org/the-book (The Sole Practitioner Architect) and the join https://www.facebook.com/groups/273982343211512/ (Facebook Group). Please visit Our Platform Sponsors https://arcat.com (ARCAT) is the online resource delivering quality building material information, CAD details, BIM, Specs, and more… all for free. Visit ARCAT now and subscribe to http://arcat.com (ARCATECT Weekly and ARCATAlert). http://EntreArchitect.com/Freshbooks (Freshbooks) is the all in one bookkeeping software that can save your small architecture firm both time and money by simplifying the hard parts of running your own business. Try Freshbooks for 30 days for FREE at http://EntreArchitect.com/Freshbooks (EntreArchitect.com/Freshbooks). Visit our Platform Sponsors today and thank them for supporting YOU… The EntreArchitect Community of small firm architects.   The post https://entrearchitect.com/podcast/entrearch/the-sole-practitioner-architecture-firm/ (EA416: Edward Shannon – The Sole Practitioner Architecture Firm) appeared first on https://entrearchitect.com (EntreArchitect // Small Firm Entrepreneur Architects).