Podcast appearances and mentions of mary demuth

Unprocessed trauma does not simply disappear. It shapes our patterns, relationships, and even our view of God.In this powerful conversation, I sit down with Mary DeMuth to talk about what happens when we suppress our stories and why healing begins with honest acknowledgment. Mary shares how untold pain keeps us stuck and how Jesus meets us in the very places we would rather avoid.We discuss the courage it takes to confront past wounds, the role of community in restoration, and the truth that healing is not a one time moment but a layered journey. If you have ever wondered why certain struggles keep resurfacing, or if you feel hesitant to share your story, this episode will help you understand why your voice matters.Your past does not get the final word. God is still writing your futuTakeaways• Suppressed trauma often shows up in repeated patterns and emotional triggers• An untold story remains unhealed and keeps you isolated• Naming your pain is a critical step toward freedom• Jesus restores what shame tries to silence• Healing requires safe community and honest conversation• Forgiveness is layered and unfolds over time• God can redeem even the most painful chapters for purposeConnect with Mary at https://marydemuth.comGrab the Rewire Your Mind: From Negativity to Joy- download here.Grab the Joy Rising- Daily Gratitude & Joy Journal here.Download My Free Joyful Living Devotional: https://kristinfitch.com/devotionalReady to take your first step towards a more joyful, faith-filled life? Download our Reignite Your Passion Workbook and start living with purpose today!Christian trauma healing, healing trauma through Christ, Mary DeMuth interview, overcoming past trauma, faith and mental health, emotional healing for Christian women, sharing your testimony, Christian podcast on healing, spiritual growth after trauma, restoration through Jesus, breaking unhealthy patterns, vulnerability and faith, community and healing, forgiveness and trauma recovery, Christian personal growth podcast

Welcome to a special scripture-focused bonus episode of the Jesus Calling Podcast, where we do a deep dive on misunderstood women in the Bible with author, podcaster, and speaker Mary DeMuth. Many of us grew up hearing the stories of women like Bathsheba, Tamar, and the Woman at the Well, often presented in a simplified—and sometimes judgmental—light. But what if the Sunday School lessons we learned missed the mark by overlooking the cultural context, the brutal realities of the time, and what the Bible actually says about these women? Mary DeMuth takes us through a powerful rereading of their narratives, challenging the common misconceptions. Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned: Jesus Calling Podcast Jesus Calling Jesus Always Jesus Listens Mary DeMuth Pray Every Day Podcast The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible by Mary DeMuth Restory Your Life by Mary DeMuth Interview Quotes: “There are some amazing women in the Bible, and sadly I have not heard them preached much except for the heavy hitters. And it gave me an ignited desire to highlight these women because they are part of the story of Scripture.” - Mary DeMuth “These women, maybe like you, were misunderstood, misjudged. You can learn a lot from these women of the Bible.” - Mary DeMuth “I think a lot of women ask, How can I get rid of this feeling? How can I get rid of this pain, this trauma, this worry? And yet the Lord is so good, He is with us when we walk through those kinds of really painful journeys.” - Mary DeMuth “If you have felt like things have been really, really, hard, God is at work. And there will be a moment when He brings healing.” - Mary DeMuth “One of the themes of my life has been how God has intersected a very broken, traumatic story and brought beauty out of it, healing me to bring me into places of ambassadorship where I am able to walk alongside those who have a similar story and just to see the beauty of the Lord intersecting them.” - Mary DeMuth ________________________ Connect with Jesus Calling Instagram Facebook Twitter Pinterest YouTube Website TikTok *Episode produced by Four Eyes Media* Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

PSR Podcast is a listener supported outreach of Be Broken Ministries. Partner with us through giving at BeBroken.org/donate. Thank you for your support!----------In today's episode, I sit down with Mary DeMuth, author of Restory Your Life, to talk about her powerful journey from childhood trauma and sexual abuse to healing and restoration through faith in Jesus. Mary shares how storytelling, community, and embracing our identity in Christ help us move from brokenness to wholeness. We discuss the ongoing nature of healing, the importance of safe spaces to share our unfiltered stories, and how God can re-story our lives for hope and purpose. Mary's honesty and wisdom offer encouragement for anyone seeking restoration and a new chapter in their story. To learn more about Mary and get her books, visit MaryDeMuth.com.Topics Covered in this Episode: Mary Demuth's personal journey of healing from childhood trauma and sexual abuse.The role of faith in Jesus in the healing process.The concept of restoration as a journey from brokenness to wholeness.The importance of storytelling and community in healing.The idea of "re-storying" one's life and redefining identity through faith.The ongoing nature of healing and the layers involved in trauma recovery.The significance of expressing thoughts and sharing experiences to break cycles of pain.The distinction between healing and maturing in the context of personal growth.Practical tools for restoration, including journaling and reflecting on one's story.The need for safe spaces in communities, particularly churches, to discuss and address issues of sexual abuse.More Resources:Restory Your Life* by Mary DeMuthThe Wall Around Your Heart* by Mary DeMuthSex & Anxiety (online course)Related Podcasts:Help and Hope for Women to Heal from Sexual AbuseLord Be Near: Finding Hope in Suffering through PrayerFreedom and Healing from Shame, Addiction, and Abuse*This is an affiliate link. Be Broken may earn referral fees on purchases through this link.----------Please rate and review our podcast: Apple PodcastsFollow us on our Vimeo Channel.

In this honest and hope-filled conversation, Carol sits down with Mary DeMuth to explore how our past quietly shapes the way we show up in relationships—and how God can rewrite those patterns. Together, they name a powerful lie many listeners carry: My past defines my relationships—I’ll keep repeating it. Early wounds, misunderstandings, disorienting seasons, and environments we didn’t choose often create internal narratives about trust, safety, control, and worth. Over time, those narratives influence how we react, who we let close, and how we protect ourselves. Fear and anxiety frequently grow out of these unresolved relational stories. Mary shares how reflection becomes the first step toward transformation. By mapping our story—identifying key characters, inciting incidents, pain points, and the “muddled middle”—we begin to notice patterns instead of being ruled by them. Disorientation can become an invitation to find God as our true safety. What once fueled control and self-reliance can instead become a doorway to surrender and healing. The conversation moves from awareness to action. What does it look like to walk differently? Mary explains how boundaries reduce anxiety, how emotionally safe community fosters healing, and how understanding our story shifts us from reaction to intention. When we recognize how old narratives drive current responses, we can pause, invite God in, and choose new patterns. The episode closes with a practical next step: notice one relationship pattern you keep repeating, ask what part of your past is shaping it, and invite God into that moment before you respond. Your past may explain you—but it does not define you. God is still writing your story, and He specializes in redemption, even in the places that feel most stuck. You are not too patterned, too wounded, or too late. You are being restoried. Resource referenced: Restory Your Life: How Jesus Reframes Your Past, Rewrites Your Present, and Redefines Your Future Additional (free) resource you might find helpful: When Fear Strikes: a 7-Day Reset for Anxious Hearts Listener Reflective Questions Where have you noticed your past quietly shaping how you trust, react, or connect in your current relationships? What relational lie have you been believing about yourself that may have formed in an earlier season of pain or misunderstanding? When you feel anxious or controlling in a relationship, what deeper fear might be underneath that reaction? Who in your life feels emotionally safe—and what makes that environment different from others? What repeated pattern keeps surfacing in your relationships, and what part of your story might be driving it? If you believed God could truly restory your past, how might you show up differently in one relationship this week? Connect with Mary DeMuth: On her website On Instagram On Facebook Find Carol McCracken: On her website On Facebook On Instagram Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Settle in for a heartfelt, hope-filled conversation between Allie Marie Smith and author and speaker Mary DeMuth. In this episode, Mary vulnerably shares her journey of healing from childhood trauma and how faith in Jesus met her in the middle of her pain. Together, they talk about the power of storytelling and why your story—especially the hard parts—matters. You'll hear how sharing our experiences can be a meaningful step toward healing, both for ourselves and for others. Mary also offers practical insights into tools such as EMDR therapy and the importance of safe, supportive relationships. The episode closes with a gentle invitation to take a brave next step—whether that's sharing your story, seeking support, or simply believing that healing is possible. You are not alone, and your story matters.

Mary DeMuth is a bestselling author, international speaker, host of the Pray Every Day podcast, and has devoted her life to helping people heal from difficult stories. And yet, before guiding others toward hope, Mary was a little girl growing up in chaos, navigating abuse, neglect, addiction, and the loss of her father. Today, Mary shares how to move from victim to survivor to healer, why lament is not weakness but faith refusing to let go, and what forgiveness really looks like in real life. She speaks honestly about trauma resurfacing years later, the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, and how striving to prove your worth can quietly shape your identity. Her words are gentle, grounded, and deeply practical. My friends, if you are tired of carrying pain in silence or rushing yourself past grief, this conversation is for you. You will leave with courage, practical wisdom and the reminder that the best is yet to come.

Letting go is hard. It goes against our natural human urge to cling on tightly to the things we care about so we can maintain a sense of control. This internal game of tug-of-war is something we all struggle with. Even if you aren't a self-proclaimed “control freak,” you can probably think of at least one area of your life in which you are being called to release control.Surrender is an invitation to entrust each hope, worry, and pressing concern in our hearts to the one whose love for us goes beyond measure. To surrender means to relinquish control and recognize that God alone can meet our deepest need.My guest for this conversation understands both the struggle of letting go and the power that comes when we stop trying to micromanage the outcome. Mary DeMuth is the author of The Freedom of Surrender, a journey through 40 days of entrusting specific areas of your life to God. She is an international speaker, podcaster, and author of over forty books, both fiction and nonfiction.In this episode, you'll hear:Why you should stop trying to control outcomesThe power that lies in letting goHow we can practice giving our hopes to GodAnd more!It's always a delight to have Mary on the podcast, and I greatly enjoyed our conversation about surrender.Find resources mentioned and more in the show notes: jillsavage.org/mary-demuth-284Join us for 6 weeks of our Great Sexpectations focus in our Date Night membership where we dive deep into intimacy. Sign-up today!Check out our other resources: Mark and Jill's Marriage Story Marriage Coaching Marriage 2.0 Intensives Speaking Schedule Book Mark and Jill to Speak Online Courses Books Marriage Resources: Infidelity Recovery For Happy Marriages For Hurting Marriages For Marriages Where You're the Only One Wanting to Get Help Mom Resources: New/Preschool Moms Moms with Gradeschoolers Moms with Teens and Tweens Moms with Kids Who Are Launching Empty Nest...

The dialogue continues in Part 2 as Chris and Tracy go deeper with Mary DeMuth into the heart of her work. Together they explore specific themes from her books, each one offering wisdom for today's leaders—regardless of age, background, or personal story. Mary not only shares lessons from her life and writing, but also highlights the central role of prayer in everything she does. As a writer, literary agent, and gifted storyteller, she invites listeners to engage with her words, join her in prayer, and discover practical insight for living and leading with faith. This episode is a rich reminder that leadership flows out of both story and Spirit.https://www.marydemuth.com/https://www.marydemuth.com/bookstore/

In this episode, author, podcaster, and speaker Mary DeMuth returns to share the inspiration behind her latest work, which spotlights overwhelmed women in the Bible—women whose stories have often been minimized or overlooked. From Mary the mother of Jesus to Hagar to the widow with two mites, these women model faith, resilience, and wholehearted trust in God. We talk about how Christmas can be both beautiful and heavy. Mary opens up about her own seasons of overwhelm, from her water breaking on Christmas Eve to sleeping in a barn the week before Christmas. She reminds us that Mary, the mother of Jesus, lived through the deepest fears a mother can face, yet she remained faithful as a disciple. Here is some of what we cover:  Why Christmas often heightens grief, trauma, and unmet longings The consumerism of the holiday season vs. the simplicity of God with us What Shalom really means: wholehearted, whole-bodied peace rooted in surrender Jesus' care for the overlooked, the aging, and the marginalized The definition of “Whelm” which  refers to out-of-control stress,  “overwhelmed” is that same stress amplified beyond capacity Connect with Mary DeMuth:  Instagram: Mary DeMuth // Healing from Trauma (@marydemuth) Facebook:  Mary DeMuth Website:  Mary DeMuth Links Mentioned:   Nobody's Mother: By Sandra Glahn 90-Day Bible Reading Challenge: By Mary DeMuth Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible: By Mary DeMuth The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible: By Mary DeMuth The Most Overwhelmed Women of the Bible: By Mary DeMuth Podcast - Pray Every Day Mary DeMuth Church Hurt Checklist Related Episodes: Building the Family You Never Had :: Mary DeMuth [Ep 156] Nobody's Mother :: Dr. Sandra Glahn [Ep 443] From Overwhelmed to Anchored: Replacing the Lies of Motherhood with God's Truth :: Erica Gwynn [Ep 544] Featured Sponsors:  Green Chef: Go to Greenchef.com/ALONEGRAZA use the code ALONEGRAZA to get started with 50% off Green Chef + FREE Graza Olive Oil Set in your 2nd and 3rd boxes. This 50% offer is only available for a limited time, so don't wait.  Policygenius: With Policygenius real users have gotten 20-year $2 million policies for just $53 a month. Don't wait until next year. Give your family the gift of security today with Policygenius. Head to Policygenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save.  Thrive Causemetics: Complete your holiday look. Go to thrivecausemetics.com/DMA for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. 

In this inspiring first conversation, hosts Chris Maxwell and Tracy Reynolds welcome Mary DeMuth—author, literary agent, podcaster, and storyteller. Chris shares how he first heard Mary speak at a conference, began reading her books, and eventually started communicating with her. Those conversations, along with the impact of her writing, led him to invite Mary to Next Step Leadership. In this episode, Mary tells her story—what shaped her life, how she began writing, and the ways God has guided her leadership through both spoken and written words. Her journey offers today's leaders practical encouragement: to take their own next steps faithfully and courageously, and to consider how words can shape the lives of those they serve.https://www.marydemuth.com/https://www.marydemuth.com/bookstore/

One of the most challenging stages of parenting is transitioning to the empty-nest season, especially when our adult children make decisions we disagree with. Mary DeMuth guides us on this journey of finding joy regardless of our wayward adult kids, sharing practical and spiritual tips on how to stay connected with children who have left the Christian faith. Love, Pray, Listen 7 Traits of Effective Parenting Assessment Special Edition Morgan Weistling Print Mary DeMuth’s Prayer Cards for Adult Children If you enjoyed listening to Focus on the Family Weekend, please give us your feedback.

One of the most challenging stages of parenting is transitioning to an empty nest, especially when your adult children go astray. Mary DeMuth offers guidance in your journey of finding joy in this stage, as she shares practical spiritual tips on staying connected with children who've left the Christian faith. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/776/29?v=20251111

Faith Over Fear Episode Summary Guest: Mary DeMuth Topic: The Freedom of Surrender: 40 Devotions to Let Go and Live Free What if the peace you’re craving isn’t found in control, but in letting go? In this episode, Carol McCracken talks with author and speaker Mary DeMuth about her new devotional The Freedom of Surrender. Together, they explore what it means to release the hidden parts of our lives—our past, our relationships, our daily struggles, and our deepest worries—to a God who can handle them better than we can. Mary shares how surrender became a life-changing spiritual practice, one that moves us from striving and fear into trust and rest. She offers honest insights about how to identify areas of resistance, what healthy surrender looks like, and why God often meets us most powerfully when we finally stop trying to manage everything ourselves. Whether you’re carrying regret, trying to fix relationships, or simply exhausted from worry, this conversation reminds you that freedom begins where self-reliance ends. Resource Referenced: The Freedom of Surrender: Forty Devotions for a Joyful Life in Christ by Mary DeMuth Download your free faith-building resource for all November's Faith Over Fear episodes here Discussion/Reflection Questions: When you hear the word surrender, what emotions rise up first—fear, relief, resistance, or trust? Mary talks about surrendering our inner life—our thoughts, wounds, and private battles. Which part of your inner life might God be inviting you to release today? How can you tell when you’ve picked something back up that you once laid down before God? What’s one relationship where you sense God asking you to trust His timing and work rather than your own effort? Mary reminds us that surrender and freedom are connected. What would “living free” look like for you this week? Which Scripture verse helps anchor your heart when surrender feels scary or uncertain? Connect with Mary DeMuth: On her website On Facebook On Instagram Find her writing on Amazon Find Carol McCracken: On her website On Facebook On Instagram Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

One of the most challenging stages of parenting is transitioning to the empty-nest season, especially when our adult children make decisions we disagree with. Mary DeMuth guides us on this journey of finding joy regardless of our wayward adult kids, sharing practical and spiritual tips on how to stay connected with children who have left the Christian faith. Receive a copy of Love, Pray, Listen and an audio download of "Parenting Adult Children When They Walk Away from God" for your donation of any amount! Your Gift DOUBLES to Help Deliver Hope and Joy! Save 2X the marriages and families this Christmas with your life-changing gift today! Get More Episode Resources If you enjoyed listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, please give us your feedback.

One of the most challenging stages of parenting is transitioning to an empty nest, especially when your adult children go astray. Mary DeMuth offers guidance in your journey of finding joy in this stage, as she shares practical spiritual tips on staying connected with children who've left the Christian faith. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/776/29?v=20251111

One of the most challenging stages of parenting is transitioning to the empty-nest season, especially when our adult children make decisions we disagree with. Mary DeMuth guides us on this journey of finding joy regardless of our wayward adult kids, sharing practical and spiritual tips on how to stay connected with children who have left the Christian faith. Receive a copy of Love, Pray, Listen and an audio download of "Parenting Adult Children When They Walk Away from God" for your donation of any amount! Your Gift DOUBLES to Help Deliver Hope and Joy! Save 2X the marriages and families this Christmas with your life-changing gift today! Get More Episode Resources If you enjoyed listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, please give us your feedback.

One of the most challenging stages of parenting is transitioning to an empty nest, especially when your adult children go astray. Mary DeMuth offers guidance in your journey of finding joy in this stage, as she shares practical spiritual tips on staying connected with children who've left the Christian faith. To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/776/29?v=20251111

The Freedom of Surrender: Forty Devotions for a Joyful Life in ChristFind joy and freedom in surrenderLetting go is hard.To surrender is to let go of what we tightly grip, the good and the bad. It's a relinquishing of control, a recognition that God alone can meet our deepest needs. It's a holy pause that entrusts each hope, each worry, and each pressing concern to the One whose love for us is beyond measure. And in this surrender, we enter into freedom. But, even so, letting go often feels easier said than done.In The Freedom of Surrender, author Mary DeMuth invites you to journey through forty days of entrusting specific areas of your life to God―your inner struggles, your family, your expectations, your regrets, your ministry, your grief, your relationships, your job, your health, your finances, your future, and more. Every daily devotion includes Scripture, prayer, and Mary's original art that help you cast each care on the One who cares for you.On this forty-day journey, you'll learn:How to trust that God is in control, even in moments of chaos and stress.True joy and freedom can happen when we release what we're holding too tightly.God's plan is to see you thrive and grow.Prayer opens the door to freedom and peace.Even in your struggles, you are never alone.When we entrust our stresses and worries to God, we embrace the reality that's always been true: Our “control” is an illusion. God alone can meet our needs, heal our wounds, and guide our steps. From this place of total reliance on God, we can experience deep joy and the peace that passes understanding.What are you holding too tightly? Experience freedom as you invite Jesus to help you surrender all.Purchase a copy of Making Marriage Easier here.Connect with Mary DeMuthWebsite | Facebook | X | Instagram | YouTubeMary loves Jesus. And really that's the most important thing about her. It's not writing or speaking or praying or mommying or any other -ing you can find. She flat out loves Him. Why? Because he has utterly, truly, completely re-storied her. See her testimony below.She has three adult children, and she's been married to Patrick for 33 years now. Mary counts those relationships as the most important people in her life. In the mid 2000s, their family helped plant a church in Southern France–a difficult, but amazing experience. In her spare (ha!) time, she loves to cook, run, garden, decorate, paint, and do interior design. You can find all her artwork here.She's been writing for 30+ years–half of them in obscurity. She mentored many writers during that time, and continues to do so through the Rockwall Christian Writers Group and some of her  instructional books. Mary pioneered a literary agency in 2022, Mary DeMuth Literary, where she shepherds writers toward traditional publishing.She currently lives in North Texas, serves in her local church alongside her husband, and she's had the privilege of speaking around the world in places like Johannesburg, Monaco, Geneva, Munich, Port-au-Prince, Nice and Florence. Although her past story is difficult, her current story leaks adventure.Not only has Mary been restored and restoried, but she longs to see the same for you. You no longer have to live haunted. I believe your new story starts today. Carl Bard wrote, “Though no one can go back and make a brand-new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand-new ending.”Paul reminds us of this important truth: “This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!” (2 Corinthians 5:17 NLT). Living in retrospect is a bad idea. It's time to heal, be set free, and find the new story God has for you. Mary has experienced God turning her storm into a story, moving her from a bitter story into a bigger one. Won't you join her on the adventure?

Healing from church hurt is a journey worth embarking on. In the realm of spiritual communities, few topics are as sensitive or impactful as church hurt. This phenomenon affects individuals across various denominations and can profoundly influence one's faith journey. Understanding and healing from church hurt is essential for maintaining and rebuilding a healthy relationship with Jesus. Understanding Church Hurt Church hurt stems from negative experiences within religious settings, such as emotional turmoil, spiritual abuse, or feeling ostracized. It does not discriminate among denominations; it can happen anywhere and to anyone. Recognizing this is crucial to navigating the complicated emotions involved and finding ways to heal. Navigating the Path to Healing Healing from church hurt often involves acknowledging the pain and finding supportive environments to express it. Talking with trusted individuals who understand or have experienced similar struggles can be invaluable. Recovery is not about finding an immediate solution but about gradually rebuilding trust and faith. Utilizing Resources for Support Tools and resources can offer guidance in recognizing and addressing hurt resulting from others in the church community. Such resources help individuals identify red flags and articulate their feelings. Seeking external perspectives can shed light on situations and clarify if certain behaviors are problematic or dismissive in religious contexts. Embracing Hope and Finding New Community While healing from the hurt of individuals within church organizations, it is vital not to generalize all religious communities based on one experience. Positive, nurturing faith communities do exist, and taking the time to find them can offer renewed faith and fellowship. Remember, it's about finding a place that reinforces spiritual well-being and growth.   Read the full show notes and access all links.  Website for Mary DeMuth Additional resources you will find helpful: Mary DeMuth - You Need to Meet These Women of the Bible (They Are Just Like Us) - Episode 398 Rebecca George - Ditch the prosperity gospel. Trust God's Timing. Episode 381 Download the free eBook: 15 Journaling Prompts and Scripture Verses 

What do you need to surrender today? Is there a worry, a recurring sin, or a stressful situation that has stolen your peace? Author and speaker Mary DeMuth will encourage us to embrace the freedom of surrender. What is surrender and what can it do for us? What happens when we surrender to God? Let's talk about it on Chris Fabry Live. Featured resources:The Freedom of Surrender: Forty Devotions for a Joyful Life in Christ by Mary DeMuthMary DeMuth's ArtPhone Lock Screensavers (free) by Mary DeMuth October thank you gift:I Choose Joy by Chip Ingram Chris Fabry Live is listener-supported. To support the program, click here. Care NetBecome a Back Fence Partner: https://moodyradio.org/donateto/chrisfabrylive/partnersSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Empty Nesting – Surrendered and SeenWith Mary DeMuth As we empty nest, it's often hard to live a surrendered life and to feel seen. Author, artist, agent, podcaster, speaker, shepherd, and encourager Mary DeMuth sheds some light on these commonalities of those living in the encore season of life. She has words of wisdom as well for those healing from past trauma and shares how to live a re-storied life as a follower of Christ.On this podcast, Charlotte and Mary talk about what living a surrendered life looks like as well as what it is like to feel overlooked. In her latest book, The Freedom of Surrender, Mary helps readers remember: God is in control, even when we are scattered and distressed.There is joy and freedom when we let go of what we tightly grip.God desires to flourish you.Freedom is possible through prayer. You are not alone in your struggles.Now is the time to seize a surrendered life. The more you relinquish your grip, the more peace floods in. Jesus promises us that he will bear our burdens in such a way that they will become light and that He sees us. Relief comes through the power of surrender and remembering that He has His eyes on us, every day.  To reach Mary: Mary DeMuth Literary To order The Freedom of Surrender: The Freedom of Surrender To receive 12 free screensavers from The Freedom of Surrender: marydemuth.com/surrender To reach Charlotte: Charlotte Guest Podcast produced by: myronpatrickproductions@gmail.com

Mary joined us in 2022 to give us encouragement and biblical counsel on getting through the month of October. I feel it is well worth re-publishing. You can find her website at www.marydemuth.com. Only God Rescued Me: Website: www.onlygodrescuedme.com Contact Lisa:lisa@onlygodrescuedme.comTo help support this podcast: PayPal @Lisa453Venmo @lisameister4242 Square https://square.link/u/kQLAozvVBuy Me a Coffee https://buymeacoffee.com/onlygodrescuedme.com

Life is full of "whelm" and then there's "overwhelm!" Today we get to talk about what it means to feel overwhelmed, and how we can use that very thing to draw us closer to our Savior, the Lord of peace. To be overwhelmed is defined as the weight of a load too hard to bear. We are human so we fail, time and time again, and I was comforted by that statement by my guest, Mary DeMuth on today's episode, God's Peace in the Overwhelm. Mary DeMuth is a literary agent, daily podcaster at the PrayEveryDay.show, Scripture, artist, speaker, and the author of more than fifty books, including The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible, The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible and her latest, The Most Overwhelmed Women of the Bible. Any or all three will make great gifts this Christmas and include questions at the end of each chapter to help you lead and enjoy a small book group.  She lives in Texas with her husband and is the mom to three adult children. Find out more at marydemuth.com. Some gems from our legacy conversation: From rapidly reading the Bible—which she tries to do once or twice a year—Mary discovered the stories of many women in Scripture that we don't hear very often.  God's timing is always perfect but it doesn't always feel like it is. We need to make sure we seek God for Himself instead of deifying his blessings and our prayer requests. Taking a day of rest helps us reset our strength and guidance in our overwhelming lives. From looking in Scripture, we find normal women just like us facing hardship and challenges and we can learn from their mistakes and be inspired by their faithfulness. Find friends who will tell you the "ingredients" of how God created you to be his masterpiece. To be overwhelmed is defined as the weight of a load to hard to bear. To help a friend who feels overlooked you need to demonstrate God's love vs stating platitudes.  If you feel overwhelmed and overlooked, you are not alone as we can find hope and encouragement in how these women in Scripture stayed faithful to God in their overwhelm.   

A journey through the remarkable stories of women of the Bible. Most, if not all, women of the Bible lived extraordinary lives, overcame immense challenges, and set examples that resonate with us today. Whether you're a leader, a mother, or someone simply making her way through life's hurdles, these women have much to teach us. Discovering Strength in Women of the Bible Many of us feel misunderstood and overwhelmed at times, much like the women of the Bible did. Historical accounts show us that they faced challenges similar to our own. For instance, women from the Bible, such as Ruth and Esther, exemplify strength and leadership. They navigated complex societal roles and responsibilities, much like we do today. Their resilience and faith offer lessons in hope and determination as we pursue our own life goals. The Journey of Mary DeMuth in Exploring Women of the Bible Author Mary DeMuth sheds light on the often-overlooked women of the Bible. Through her spiritual journey and writing, Mary offers insights into the lives of these women and how their stories relate to our modern experiences. Her exploration began with noticing these figures in the scriptures, sparking her series of books that reimagines their stories. These narratives not only recount history but also relate it to our current societal dynamics. The Proverbs 31 Woman and Modern Womanhood A particularly inspiring figure is the Proverbs 31 woman. Her traits—virtuous, industrious, and compassionate—reflect the qualities we aspire to embody today. Mary DeMuth reminds us that these traits were exhibited throughout her lifetime, not in the span of a single day. It's important to remember that life's journey takes time and unfolds over years, offering us a model of grace and patience. Learning from Women of the Bible in Leadership Mary DeMuth highlights women like the biblical widow, who demonstrated profound influence through simple acts of faith. Though not widely recognized, their subtle contributions emphasize the importance of humility and perseverance. For women in leadership, these stories serve as reminders that actual influence often comes quietly, without fanfare, yet with a significant impact. Read the full show notes and access additional links. Website for Mary DeMuth An additional resource related to women of the Bible: The story of Deborah – Uncommon courage you need to succeed - Episode 363   Ready to transform your mindset, achieve more goals, develop stronger relationships with your children, and/or achieve more success in your career? Schedule a discovery call and learn if neuroscience coaching is a good fit for you.  Access Robyn's calendar. 

Finding Joy When Your Kids Walk Away: Trusting Jesus Over Outcomes Parenting is one of the most rewarding yet challenging journeys we can experience. As Christian parents, we often dream of raising children who follow Jesus, make wise choices, and walk closely with God. But what happens when our children choose a different path? How do we find hope and joy when our kids seem far from the faith we love? In this episode of The Bridge Between Us Podcast, we tackle these difficult questions head-on with guest Mary DeMuth, author of Love, Pray, Listen. Together, we explore how parents can trust Jesus in seasons of uncertainty and heartbreak. When Outcomes Become Idols It's natural to want the best for our kids. But sometimes, even good desires can turn into idols. When we say, “I'll be okay if my kids do exactly what I want,” we're putting our hope in outcomes, not in Jesus. As Mary DeMuth shares, this is a trap many parents fall into. We want control—but the truth is, we don't have it. God reminds us that our role is to love, guide, and pray, but ultimately, our children have free will. Finding Joy in Heartbreak One powerful theme from the conversation is the idea of finding joy even when life doesn't look like we planned. How do you celebrate the goodness of God when your heart is breaking? The answer is in understanding that joy is not based on circumstances—it's rooted in Jesus. Mary DeMuth reminds us that even God, the perfect Father, has children who rebelled. Our pain is something He understands deeply, and that connection can become a source of unexpected joy. Practical Tools for Grieving Parents Grief is real, and it's okay to lament. In this episode, you will be encouraged to use the biblical model of lament—pouring out your heart to God, describing your pain, and choosing to praise Him anyway. Writing your prayers, journaling your emotions, and finding a safe person to share with can help release the heavy burden of parenting heartbreak. Another powerful takeaway is learning to let go of specific outcomes in your prayers. Instead of telling God exactly how to move, Mary DeMuth suggests praying, “Surprise me with how You reach my child.” This shift opens the door to trust and helps parents see God's creative work in ways they might have missed. Love That Transforms We close the conversation by unpacking 1 Corinthians 13—often quoted at weddings but originally written to a broken church. How can parents apply “love is patient, love is kind” to their parenting, especially with a child who's wandering? Mary offers insights on showing grace, patience, and kindness to our kids, and even to ourselves, on this journey. Key Takeaways Release control: God loves your child more than you do. Joy comes from Jesus, not perfect circumstances. Lament is a healthy, biblical response to grief. Trust God's timing and methods, even when they surprise you. Love your child and yourself with grace and patience. This episode is for every parent longing for hope in a hard season. Whether your child is questioning faith, making different choices, or simply testing boundaries, remember this: you are not alone, and Jesus is walking with you every step of the way. Resources mentioned:  https://www.marydemuth.com/ Here is your free download of 52 prayers. Call to Action: If this episode encouraged you, please share it with a friend and leave a review. Your support helps more parents discover hope and wisdom for the journey ahead.   Related podcast episodes: Overcome Grief When It Is Impacting Your Life and Relationships  Help For The Parent Who Has Been Estranged From Their Child  

How do you write 2,000 words daily while managing 40 clients and a daily podcast?  Mary DeMuth's productivity system is deceptively simple but devastatingly effective. She treats writing "like a muscle"—consistency builds strength, breaks destroy momentum.  Her secret weapon: Self-imposed deadlines for a decade before getting published. When real deadlines arrived, she was already trained to deliver early.  Results: 52 published books, 6 million podcast downloads, and a literary agency that revolutionizes author-agent relationships through community building.  Discover Mary's complete creative productivity system in Episode 528 of Get Yourself Optimized. The show notes, including the transcript and checklist to this episode, are at getyourselfoptimized.com/528.

Have you ever felt overlooked? In today's episode, host Tina Yeager sits down with Mary DeMuth—literary agent, prolific author, and podcaster—to talk about the universal experience of feeling overlooked and misunderstood. Drawing from her latest book, The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible, Mary shares her own story of walking through pain and isolation, particularly within church communities, and offers honest insight on coping with being unseen and undervalued. Together, Tina and Mary explore the emotional weight of being overlooked, the challenge of rebuilding trust after betrayal, and how to process those feelings through both faith and safe community. Mary reminds us of our inherent worth as individuals created in God's image and encourages listeners to seek healing—not in isolation, but with trusted people who can walk through the journey with us. Stay tuned for encouragement, practical steps toward healing, and a much-needed reminder that you are not alone. If you've ever struggled to feel seen, this episode is especially for you. Highlights from this episode include: You're Not Alone: Mary and Tina talk about how common it is to feel isolated or insignificant, especially when comparing our lives to the “highlight reels” of others on social media. Honest Community: Healing often starts by sharing openly with safe, trustworthy people. Mary offered practical advice on how to recognize supportive relationships and protect your own heart. Faith & Worth: The foundation of our worth doesn't come from others, but from being created in God's image. Mary reflected on the importance of lamenting our pain, processing it with God and community, and slowly rebuilding trust. Steps Toward Healing: Acknowledge your pain, talk to a safe person, and don't shy away from grieving. Real, healthy community is a vital part of true healing. Mary's wisdom is a timely reminder—if you're feeling overlooked right now, you aren't “the only one.” There's hope and community waiting for you, just as you are. Want to dive deeper? Check out Mary DeMuth's daily Pray Every Day podcast, visit her website at marydemuth.com for helpful resources, and explore her books for more encouragement and tools.   We're thrilled to accompany you on this journey of faith, growth, and transformation. As always, we appreciate your support! Please subscribe and share this episode. We can't wait for you to join us for future episodes of Flourish-Meant. To book Tina as a speaker, connect with her life coaching services, and more, visit her website: https://tinayeager.com/ Optimize your mind and body with my new favorite, all-inclusive supplement, Cardio Miracle! I love the energy and focus this health-boosting drink mix provides without toxins, caffeine, or sugar! Get a discount on your purchase with my link: http://www.cardiomiracle.com/tinayeager Use the code TINA10 at checkout. To flourish in all seasons of life with the highest quality nutraceutical health supplements that benefit charitable causes, shop NutraMedix wellness supplements. Be sure to use my link  https://www.nutramedix.com/?rfsn=7877557.b6c6785 and add my special code TINA to get 10% off your entire purchase! If you're a writer, subscribe to Inkspirations Online (devotional publication by writers for writers): https://www.inkspirationsonline.com/ Manage stress and anxiety in 10 minutes a day with the course presented by 15 experts, Subdue Stress and Anxiety https://divineencouragement.onlinecoursehost.com/courses Connect with Tina at: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tyeagerwriting/ Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinayeager/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tina.yeager.9/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TinaYeager Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/tyeagerwrites/ Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3865622.Tina_Yeager

In this episode, I speak with Wife, Mom, Literary Agent, Podcaser at the PrayEveryDay Show, Scripture Artist, Speaker, and Author on her new book Most Overlooked Women of the Bible. Listen as Mary shares on how your longing to be noticed does not define who you are in Christ. Learn how women in scripture can teach you how to remedy your own self doubt and feelings of being devalued. Mary urges women to consider that being behind the scenes can be a position of great significance.  Find Mary :    the website Listen to FBH on Humble Beginnings Ep. 201 Scripture: 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.   Titus 2:3-5 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.   Proverbs 22:4 Humility is the fear of the Lord; its wages are riches and honor and life.   Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosperyou and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.   Ruth 3:11 And now, my daughter, don't be afraid. I will do for you all you ask. All the people of my town know that you are a woman of noble character.   Additional Scripture: 1 Corinthians 9:1-27, Colossians 3:12, Philippians 4:19, 2 Timothy 1:7,  REGISTER @ CFLEX Academy Arts Enrichment   Listen to our sister podcast:  Abundantly Rooted   Other Resourses: Join the Abundantly Rooted Life Community email to receive encouragement and updates   Grab your Artza Subscription Box and bring home a bit of Israel.  use promo code: ARTZAKRISTINARISINGER for 25% off   Check out our Linktree   Get the Books:  Life After Losing A Loved One: How to Turn Grief Into Hope Strength and Purpose Adventures of LiLy and Izzy Bee: The Imagination Journey 

We did it—500 episodes! Today, we're celebrating this incredible milestone by taking a look back at the conversations that have shaped us, stretched us, and stayed with us. From unforgettable guests who made us laugh, to powerful lessons that changed the way we think and lead—this episode is a tribute to the moments that mattered most. We're sharing the episodes we return to again and again… and the ones you keep talking about too. Whether you've been with us from the beginning or just found us recently, this 500th episode is a celebration of the journey we've taken together. Come celebrate with us! LIST OF FAVORITE EPISODE John Mark Comer - The Secret to Enoying Your Life 5 Episodes That I Think of Often 388 How Boundaries Help Us Get What We Really Want for Christmas with Sasha Shillcut (people are upset when you establish new boundaries bc they benefitted from your lack of boundaries or are resentful they didn't maintain the same boundary) 444 Love, Pray, Listen, Parenting Young Adults with Mary DeMuth (emphasis on maintaining relationship) 266 Our Relationship With Alcohol with Jenn Kautsch (Her own story of determining alcohol was no longer serving her) 376 Midlife Is No Joke: The Big Questions in Midlife (The things that used to work no longer do) 332 This Cultural Moment: Facing Reality with Jen Oshman (On being an informed citizen with boundaries) Krista Inheritance Gone Right with Sean and Jill Maher Helping your young adult kids find their career path with Tyler Lafferty The Soul of Shame with Dr Curt Thompson Midlife is no joke - The big questions in midlife with Kelly Flanagan Resilient Faith with Jerry Sittser 5 Guests I Won't Forget  181 Kay Warren on Depression and Anxiety 377 Midlife Is No Joke: Marriage with Jimmy and Irene Rollins 310 Moving Through Grief and Loss at Christmas with Nancy Hicks David Thomas —> 274 Parenting Teens: Navigating Emotions & 165 Parenting in the New Year 261 Katherin Wolff on Suffering Krista Parenting Young Adult Children with Dr Jim Burns Seven Surprising Ways to Rest with Dr Saundra Dalton Candace Cameron Bure Jackie Green and Lauren McAfee - how to be a person of legacy What Healthy Relationships do and don't have with Gary Thomas 5 Episodes Where I've Implemented Something I Learned 446 Styling Fashion Over 40 with Julie Powell and Krista Olufson 437 Jumpstarting Your Midlife Health with Megan Dahlman 414 Beat the Frumpy - on fashion with Jammie Baker 312 The Healthy Way: Productivity and Habits with Tanya Dalton 430 The Art and Heart of Holiday Gathering with Anna Watson Carl Krista Ep 493 Experience God, Really with John Eldredge - quote + God being “right here” in you + pausing + day, week, month year plan for renewal Lead your mindset with Emily Love The Secret to Success with Jeff Henderson Mental Training for Your Athlete and Yourself with Trisha Kroll Healthy Relationships 101 with John Townsend 5 Episodes That Brought Me Joy (It was all about the guests) 455 & 456 Building a Lasting Legacy with Rick and Diane Thomas 445 Maximizing Your Look with Rebecca Reid, Color Analyst 326 The Brain Game: The Soul of Shame with Dr. Curt Thompson 305 The Family Legacy Series with Eric Peterson 95  Sally Clarkson Krista Cultivating a Marriage that Lasts with Dan Allender The Secret to being instantly understood with John Trent Lisa Bevere - b/c she's awesome Kate Merrick - b/c there's no one like Kate and it's a moving story of faith Edie Littlefield Sundby - Movement heals the body 5 Episodes Others Have Talked About  421 & 422: What I've Noticed About You: Our Keys to Longterm Friendship 373: A Busy Mom's Guide to Photo Organization with Casey Von Stein 469: Who Am I If? 378 Midlife is No Joke: Menopause with Dr. Carol Tanksley 472: Faith-Driven Voters: Questions We Ask as We Cast Our Ballots With Kaitlyn Schess Krista How to feel the feels with Aundi Kobler Fighting for Family with Julie and Chris Bennett DISC your way to better relationships How to incorporate meaningful rituals into milestone birthdays  Innovation and creativity - two secrets to living life well with Ken Wytsma She's Re-launching - most recent episode on going back to work SPOTIFY LINK TO THE PLAYLIST OF EPISODES WE MENTION A FEW THINGS MENTIONED Books Sacred Marriage- Gary Thomas Sacred Parenting- Gary Thomas And She Still Laughs- Kate Merrick The Mission Walker- Edie Littlefield Sundby Doing Life with Your Adult Children: Keep Your Mouth Shut and the Welcome Mat Out - Jim Burns Try softer-Aundi kolber LET'S CONNECT! Did you like this episode? Let us know and leave a review on itunes or share it with a friend. Or message us on Instagram – we'd love to hear from you! Get the Daily Dozen Checklist -12 habits that will immediately make you happier and healthier

Have you ever felt unseen or overlooked? Maybe you’ve wondered if anyone notices your efforts, your heart, or even your presence. If so, you are not alone. This week on The Love Offering podcast, I had the joy of talking with Mary DeMuth about her newest book, The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible. In our conversation, Mary tenderly reminds us that feeling unseen is not a new struggle—many women in Scripture felt the very same way. Yet through their stories, we are invited to discover a profound truth: we are both seen and heard by the God who loves us. Together, we explore questions like:✨ Why do I feel invisible sometimes?✨ How can I overcome feelings of rejection?✨ What does it really mean to live a “seen” life in a world obsessed with recognition? Mary’s words are like a balm to the soul—offering hope, healing, and a fresh reminder that you have a beautiful, meaningful place in God’s story. I pray this conversation encourages you to rest in His love, find joy in who He created you to be, and live empowered to use your unique voice for His glory. You are seen. You are heard. You are deeply loved. With love,Rachael Connect with Mary: https://www.marydemuth.com/ Read the Show Notes: https://rachaelkadams.com/writing/ Support the Show: https://rachaelkadams.com/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Mary DeMuth joins us to talk about her latest book, The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible: What Their Stories Teach Us about Being Seen and Heard.  Become a Patreon Supporter  

In the ​latest installment of the ongoing interview series with contributing editor Mark Bauerlein, Mary E. DeMuth joins in to discuss her recent book, "The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible: What Their Stories Teach Us about Being Seen and Heard." Intro music by Jack Bauerlein.

In the ​latest installment of the ongoing interview series with contributing editor Mark Bauerlein, Mary E. DeMuth joins in to discuss her recent book, “The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible: What Their Stories Teach Us about Being Seen and Heard.” Intro music by Jack Bauerlein.

Mary DeMuth shares her journey of experiencing harm in a Dallas megachurch, but finding Jesus and healing in the wreckage.

Mary DeMuth shares her journey of experiencing harm in a Dallas megachurch, but finding Jesus and healing in the wreckage.

The pastors' wives spill the tea on Stephanie's time at a writers' retreat with their literary agent Mary Demuth. At this retreat, Stephanie felt a clear calling to write a devotional for those reconstructing their faith after leaving legalism. Even with some nerves about writing solo, she's trusting the Lord's guidance and leaning on the support of this amazing community.Follow Stephanie's solo writing journey on Substack:https://substack.com/@msstephaniegilbert?r=4devij&utm_medium=iosTo purchase the BOOK, head here: ⁠https://pastorswivestellall.com/book⁠⁠To shop our MERCH, head here: ⁠https://pastorswivestellall.com/shop⁠⁠Want to support the Pastors' Wives Tell All podcast ministry? Become a patron: ⁠https://www.patreon.com/pastorswivestellall ⁠⁠SUBSCRIBE: ⁠Sign up⁠ for our email list and receive updates on new episodes, free gifts, and all the fun! Email sign up ⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠!CONTACT US: ⁠hello@pastorswivestellall.com⁠⁠FOLLOW US:Website: ⁠⁠pastorswivestellall.com⁠⁠Instagram: ⁠⁠@pastorswivestellall⁠⁠Facebook: ⁠⁠@pastorswivestellall⁠⁠JESSICA:Instagram: ⁠⁠@jessica_taylor_83⁠⁠, ⁠⁠@come_away_missions⁠⁠, ⁠⁠@do_good_project__⁠⁠⁠Facebook: ⁠⁠Come Away Missions⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Do Good Project⁠⁠Websites: ⁠⁠Do Good Project⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Come Away Missions⁠⁠JENNA:Instagram: ⁠⁠@jennaallen⁠⁠, ⁠⁠@jennaallendesign⁠⁠Facebook: ⁠⁠@JennaAllenDesign⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠Jenna Allen Design⁠⁠STEPHANIE:Instagram: ⁠⁠@msstephaniegilbert⁠⁠Facebook: ⁠⁠I Literally LOL⁠⁠Website: ⁠⁠Stephanie Gilbert⁠

Heather is joined by Mary DeMuth, speaker, podcast host, and author of more than thirty books including her latest, "The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible." (Amazon affiliate link.) Heather and Mary talk about how feeling overlooked can connect to aging and why and how we may feel we're losing our "shine" as we get older. Mary offers encouragement around being honest about the grief and loss of aging and discusses the helpful tool of lament. Mary also shares stories of some of her favorite overlooked women from the Bible and what we can learn from them. Listen to other conversations with Mary DeMuth here: Leah and Misunderstood Women of the Bible: https://omny.fm/shows/compared-to-who/leah-and-other-misunderstood-women-of-bible-feat-m Body Image and Sexual Abuse: https://omny.fm/shows/compared-to-who/body-image-sexual-abuse-hope-healing-resources-for Connect with Compared to Who? and get our Aging April resource plus other freebies - like the new Mirror Fast Bible Study, here: https://wwwimprovebodyimage.com Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Feeling Overlooked? You're Not Alone.Have you ever felt unseen, unheard, or on the outside looking in? You're not alone. Many of us carry the weight of feeling invisible, wondering if our presence truly matters. But did you know the Bible is filled with women who felt the same way?In this episode, we dive into the stories of biblical women who wrestled with rejection, loneliness, and feeling overlooked. Their experiences reveal powerful truths—reminding us that God sees us, hears us, and calls us by name.We'll explore questions like:Why do I feel invisible in my own life?How can I move past the pain of rejection?What does it mean to be "seen" in a world obsessed with visibility?Through these deeply relatable stories, you'll discover how to embrace your worth, find your voice, and rest in the truth that you are fully known by God.Inspired by The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible by Mary E. DeMuth, this conversation will encourage you to step into the life God has for you—one where you are seen, heard, and deeply loved.Listen now and be reminded: You are never overlooked in God's eyes.https://www.marydemuth.com/about/Amazon: https://a.co/d/g1gEB5M

Discover the way ahead at Indiana Wesleyan University. Learn more here. Purchase What Will You Teach Me here In this social media, celebrity focused world, it can be easy to feel overlooked. You might not feel like you are doing anything important. Mary DeMuth is here to show us from Scripture that God loves to use those that the world overlooks. Sharing from her new book, The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible, you'll learn about: 4:45 Why more people should know about Jehosheba 7:35 Growing up in a dysfunctional family doesn't dictate your future 12:26 Taking courage in Christ for struggles in your marriage 15:37 How to obey God without hesitation like Abigail 17:45 God sees you! (and here's how) 25:00 Husbands who are forgotten and overlooked Mary DeMuth is a literary agent, daily podcaster at the PrayEveryDay.show, Scripture artist, speaker, and the author of more than fifty books, including The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible and the topic of today's conversation, The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible- What their stories teach us about being seen and heard. She lives in Texas with her husband and is the mom to three adult children. Learn more about Mary and her book, The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible https://marydemuth.com/ Get the help you need to take back your home from too much technology. Join Arlene for her masterclass, Screen Kids today https://www.happyhomeuniversity.com/course Get Arlene's book, Making Marriage Easier: How to love (and like) your spouse for life https://makingmarriageeasier.com/ Get free date night ideas whether you have 15 minutes or one hour, small group questions for Making Marriage Easier and more https://makingmarriageeasier.com/ Have a question for Arlene to address on the podcast? Please email Arlene your questions and the topics you want covered on the show! Email speaking @ arlenepellicane.com Tickets on sale now! You're invited to Arlene's Parents Rising Conference in San Diego, September 6, 2025 http://parentsrisingconference.com/ Purchase

Today's Headlines, and a conversation with Mary DeMuth, author of "The Most Overlooked Women of the Bible: What Their Stories Teach Us about Being Seen and Heard". See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Some of the greatest deliverers in the Story of Scripture go largely unnoticed. Author and Bible teacher Mary DeMuth joins Rebecca Carrell and Liz Rodriguez to talk about what we miss when we neglect their stories.Find more about Mary Demuth at https://www.marydemuth.com/about/Her latest book is called The Most Overlooked Women in the Bible: What Their Stories Teach Us About Being Seen and Heard. Find all of her books here: https://www.marydemuth.com/bookstore/We love hugs! And when you rate, review, and share Honestly, Though on Apple Podcasts (and all podcast platforms), we see it immediately, and it feels just like a big, warm hug. Thank you in advance for taking an extra moment to make sure others find us in the algorithms. And speaking of finding us...Honestly, Though: @honestlythoughthepodcast (FB & IG(Rebecca Carrell: https://www.rebeccacarrell.com/ ;  IG - @RebeccaCarrell ; Twitter: @RebeccaACarrell ; FB - Rebecca Ashbrook CarrellLiz Rodriguez: IG: @lizannrodriguez ; FB - Liz Rodriguez - https://www.facebook.com/liz.rodriguez.92775Nika Spaulding: stjudeoakcliff.org ; IG - @NikaAdidas ; Twitter - @NikaAdidasWe have the world's best producer! Are you interested in podcasting? Do you know someone who is? Taylor Standridge can help with audio engineering, production, editing, show mapping, and coaching. Connect with Taylor at taylorstandridge1@gmail.com or on Twitter: @TBStandridge

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What's worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up. But there is a better way. On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God's People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem. Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil. In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she's learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people? She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others. This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we'll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share. Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God's narrow path for many decades. Guests Dr. Diane Langberg Dr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG   JULIE ROYS  00:04 Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way.   JULIE ROYS  00:21 Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me.   DIANE LANGBERG 02:58 Thank you. It’s an honor to be here.   JULIE ROYS  03:00 I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix.   DIANE LANGBERG 03:39 I’m thrilled to be done too.   JULIE ROYS  03:43 I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is?   DIANE LANGBERG 04:15 So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems,   JULIE ROYS  04:34 So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and  say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:25 Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed.   JULIE ROYS  05:45 So what would you say fruit is?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:47 It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd.   JULIE ROYS  06:10 And yet, so often it is true  when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right?   DIANE LANGBERG 06:29 Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ.   JULIE ROYS  06:35 One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question?   DIANE LANGBERG 07:14 Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue.   JULIE ROYS  08:28 Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there are some mega churches that do-good work, and there’s people who have been saved through these mega churches, who have been discipled through them. But I think for the pastor, I have seen that it seems like all the pressures in a mega church are in the wrong direction. I’m curious what you would say that you’ve seen with our churches today, and whether they help spiritual formation for these leaders, or whether they seem to work in the opposite direction.   DIANE LANGBERG 09:09 The pressure is terrible, the expectations are extravagant, and everything has God’s name on it. So if you aren’t meeting the pressure, and you aren’t bringing in lots of people, and people aren’t talking about how wonderful you are, you’re not doing a good job. If those are the criteria, then Jesus didn’t do a good job. And so the care of the shepherd,  the personality of the shepherd, the heart that not is just given in words, but indeed. All of those things show us who a shepherd is, and we are measuring by outcome. I mean again, you go back to the cross or to the resurrection, there were not very many people about looking for him. I think that we love the institution, and it  feels safe to us, and it feels like God must be on our side, because we have 3000 members or whatever, when, in fact, he’s called us to love and to patience and to self-control and things like that. That’s how we look like him, how we serve him, and how we woo others to him.   JULIE ROYS  10:38 Well it is centered around a celebrity so often. And this can happen in large churches, mega churches. This can happen in small churches, where the pastor can be the big fish in the small pond, just as much as you know that the celebrity pastor in this this big institution. And I think when we complain  about the pastor or about the institution, we also have to look at ourselves, don’t we? because we’re the consumers of these type of churches. We are the ones that give money to these churches. What  responsibility do we have as lay people to ensure that our churches are better?   DIANE LANGBERG 11:19 I’m not even sure that I would start thinking about it that way, because to ensure our churches are better means to ensure a system is good, and Jesus didn’t die for systems. So the question is number one for me, on my face, asking him where I am not like him to teach me that and to teach me how to become more like Him in those ways. Part of what doing that and living there, not just doing it once or something, but living in that space with God also sharpens our eyes and our ears, and we begin to recognize things that may be painted beautifully but look nothing like Christ. I think, until that happens, the system is evidence of God, which is not whether it’s a church or a political one, or whatever it is, none of that is his fruit. It’s who we are in the places that we live that is to be his fruit.   JULIE ROYS  12:31 Something I’ve really appreciated about you, and I’m hearing it in this interview, but it’s also in your writings. One of my favorite book actually, of yours is that little. It’s just a tiny paperback book on meditations for counselors. And I have found that it’s not just meditations for counselors, it’s meditations really for anybody who’s in work that does take them through some of the grossest evil that’s out there, and how to protect your soul. And I so appreciate that. I know I read it. I said this at the last RESTORE,, because I went through a very difficult time prior to it, and I read  those meditations, I went through that book twice, just because I found that I needed to protect my soul, so carefully, because, again, the pressures are just not in the right direction. And I know my own flesh  when I encounter these systems, makes me so angry, and you can’t, not when you, when you hear the way that people have abused.   DIANE LANGBERG 13:40 Jesus cracked whips and turns tables over. So I don’t think he likes it much either.   JULIE ROYS  13:46 And that’s something that I say regularly, and people are like, You sound angry, and I’ll be like, Why aren’t you angry? Like this should make us angry genuinely. Yet at the same time, Satan will use that as an opportunity in our own hearts. And you talk about in your book about the role that deception plays. This was so good, and let’s start with the predator himself. Right? How deception works with someone who is again preying on the sheep rather than protecting the sheep. Often, I wonder if they even admit to themselves what they’re doing.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:29 Often not. I think that, I mean, obviously we are deceptive creatures. There’s no exceptions. The only exception was Christ, and so we carry that around. And that’s, I mean, it was started in Eden. I didn’t do it. That girl did it.   JULIE ROYS  14:53 Blame it on the Lord.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:54 Right, of course, but it’s been in us since the beginning. And so our go to thing is when somebody points the finger at us about anything, whether it’s true or not, our first thing is to take care of ourselves. That’s our automatic response, and if what they have given us is true, we have to make it untrue. There’s some way we want to make it untrue because it disturbs us. If we make it true, we don’t want them to think about that. It’s going to hurt our job. It’s going to do whatever. So I don’t think we have really understood the depth of that and its claws on us. And I think that that makes us very vulnerable.   JULIE ROYS  15:47 Yeah, I’m still stunned. James McDonald, who I  reported on back. I mean, it started in 2018 but then he was fired from his church in 2019 and most of the elders stepped down. He is out there now today, even after assaulting a 59-year-old woman and breaking her femur, he is still out there proclaiming his innocence, and even with that blaming it on PTSD that he got from me reporting and this 59-year-old woman supposedly triggered, but by the way, just curious of your professional opinion on PTSD being triggered in a situation like that, to actually assault somebody?   DIANE LANGBERG 16:29 It’s a great cover up on their side.   JULIE ROYS  16:33 And what’s shocking is he got a professional counselor  in court to say that.   DIANE LANGBERG 16:40 If someone has been doing terrible things and actually really begins to see it and is hit by what they have done and grieving by what they have done, having them look like they have PTSD would be expected, but it’s at their own hands that it’s there. It’s not you who did this or said this, therefore I feel this which many abusers would do.   JULIE ROYS  17:06 and it is interesting how the blame often goes everywhere, except on the one person who’s caused it. Let’s talk about deception now with the abused and even with systems. I mean, it does always, I find it difficult to wrap my head around although I know it happens and I believe it happens, but the idea that somebody could be sexually abusing you, and yet you think that this is somehow okay spiritually, like you’re a Christian and  you’re able to believe the lies that are told you. Talk about that dynamic and how that plays into it.   DIANE LANGBERG 17:51 Well, I would say first of all that I don’t think we have really very much understanding of how deep deception is in all of us. No exceptions. No exception is Jesus Christ, and we do it quickly and easily. And anybody who’s raised children realizes it takes about two seconds after birth of them to figure it out. But you don’t have to teach them. It’s there. And so the way that we think is flawed, and I don’t think we start with that premise. We know other people where it’s flawed, but  we’re doing the right thinking, and we don’t expose or look at ourselves in those ways. So I think we have very little understanding of the depth of deception in individual humans, often on a daily basis, and then how that shapes and controls systems which only reinforce the deception that we have because we like the system. So it’s here since the beginning. It’s got deep roots.   DIANE LANGBERG 19:20 When I was a young girl, one of my grandmothers lived in the mountains of West Virginia, and I was staying with her for a couple of days, and she said to me, go downstairs to the cellar and bring up the clothes that we were washing. So I do, and we’re talking about a dirt floor cellar and the whole thing. So I go down into the cellar to get the clothes, and I started crying and screaming, and my grandmother came running, and I came running up the stairs. She turned on the lights, and she said, Watch. And then she said to me, if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. And that came back to me some years ago; in terms of deception, in organizations, in myself, in leaders, in whatever, turning on the lights. And that’s what Jesus did and does –  rats run! And then we have to make a choice. Number one, are we going to turn on the light? which most of us are very uncomfortable. I mean, I don’t need him. I get that turn on the light, and they will run.   JULIE ROYS  20:32 So good. I know at RESTORE in 2022 you made the comment that says how to when you were addressing how to recognize a wolf in the church, and you said, Well, one way is to not become one. And I saw  some pushback to that. I thought it was a fantastic point because I think  we all have this, and if we deny that we have it, that’s almost the scariest situation, because if you are not attending to your own heart, that’s when I think you are most likely to fall into this. But some people said, Oh, wait, isn’t this sin leveling? Because it takes a special kind of evil to be a pedophile or to sexually abuse someone, and not all of us are there. Speak to those folks who were saying that, and I think you know, and I understand where they’re coming from. What would you say to them?   DIANE LANGBERG 21:36 Well, I think, first of all, sin in itself is on a continuum. I mean, some sins do hideous damage to people that all the help in the world isn’t going to undo. You know, it’s not going to go away, really, until they see the face of Jesus. There are other things that we do, that we see, and we stop doing, or other people see us stop and we change. And things like, it’s all on a continuum. And the problem is, if you have, let’s say, as an adolescent, you start doing things to cover up things, which is pretty common in adolescence, frankly. Did you do this? No, I didn’t do this. Were you in this place? No, I was not. So forth.   JULIE ROYS  22:35 I’m not sure it’s just adolescents either.   DIANE LANGBERG 22:37 Oh I  know it’s not. The point is that it’s very young, and it happens when you can have a toddler. You ask them, “Did they do something? Did you spill this? No, you know, darn sure they were.   JULIE ROYS  22:51 It reminds me of my grandson who, four-year-old grandson who was asked if he did something. He said, No, my mind made me do that. My mind told me to do that.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:04 Well, that’s a keeper number one and number two, I mean, teach him when he has a different level brain to look at himself. But yes, it’s in all of us. And so when I said that what I’m saying is, don’t live even minorly in the way that perpetrators live. Don’t excuse harm to others. Doesn’t have to be sexual abused, It could be a rude person. Don’t excuse that rudeness. Don’t treat other people  as if they have no value or they can easily be discarded or whatever.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:43 It is the things that grow and control if we keep doing them that we don’t theoretically want to do. And that’s what I mean by that. Look at yourself and  we are very good at saying, Well, I did do this, but I didn’t do that. We do that all the time, and we’re leveling it, and we’re not looking at ourselves in the light when we do that. That’s what we’re called to do.   JULIE ROYS  24:16 I love that you say, put rudeness up there and not honoring people as made in God’s image. I find sometimes it’s hard to remember that even the perpetrator was made in God’s image. And someone who’s taught me a great deal about that is Lori Anne Thompson. I have never heard her dehumanize another human being. Again, for those who don’t know her, she was one of the victims of sexual abuse by Ravi Zacharias. I’ve never heard her do that, and I find being around her makes me a better person, because I always hear her honoring every person. Not that she won’t call them words that they rightly have owned,  but to remember that every single person is made in God’s image and treat them. ,   DIANE LANGBERG 25:09 Yes, you will never meet somebody who is not, even if they’ve got their bodies six feet waiting in hell. They were made in the image of God.   JULIE ROYS  25:23 It reminds me of CS Lewis, who said, “We will never meet a mere mortal.   DIANE LANGBERG 25:28 Right? Yes, which does not mean being easy on it. That’s one of the places many people get confused. If I think this way, then I but actually, if you really think that way and love somebody, I mean they’re dancing in hell, for crying out loud, if they’re abusing children or something like that. The gift to them is the truth and turning on the lights so the rats run .   JULIE ROYS  25:56 Absolutely. And repentance is a gift. And the best thing we can do is call them to repentance, and I try to keep that in the forefront of my work too, that that is always my hope. Do I want them to be removed from spiritual positions? Yes, but ultimately we pray for their soul. Ultimately we pray that they would repent.   JULIE ROYS  26:19 When you talk about the deception that operates in these systems. There’s a lot of, I mean, even psychologically, what’s going on with, I think, the staff, with the people, the lay people, as they hear things. And you talked about something called Truth Default Theory. Would you explain what that is and how that often is in operation when these things begin to get revealed?   DIANE LANGBERG 26:51 The best way to find out what that is to read that section of the book, frankly. And it’s not a short thing to explain, so to speak. But people choose to lie because they think the outcome will be good. If you tell the truth of a big mess, the outcome will be bad, which there’s some truth to that . You’re going to blow something up if you tell the truth. It’ll make a mess, and everything else. And so I think that people want to keep the system okay. And so you’ll see these places or whatever, where the leader has been sexually abusive, maybe for years and years, and they got rid of the leader, but they don’t go any deeper. They don’t go any deeper into it because this is the church, and we want it to be, we want it to thrive, and we’re glad that that stopped and all that kind of stuff. And we make it shallow. It’s not shallow. You can’t do harm like abuse or live with that harm for years or months or whatever, and then just walk away and be fine. It’s not a possibility. And so part of that is understanding the different ways that people hold on to systems. Now, this is my church. I love it. I’m going to protect it. Yes, he did those things, yes, they’re terrible, but we fired him, and that’s all. It’s shallow in terms of really understanding.   JULIE ROYS  28:37 And when we have this vested interest, we do seem to try, and we’ve seen this a lot, we seem to choose who we believe. And so often, I think people are just predisposed to believing the person who has the position of spiritual authority, and usually the victim is someone we’ve never heard of and often, one of the first things that the system does  to protect  their basically, this is their money maker, right? This is their image as a church or as a ministry, is that they will denigrate the person who’s bringing whether it’s a reporter, whether it’s the victims themselves bringing the allegations, and the people seem to be predisposed to just believing the person we want to believe.   DIANE LANGBERG 29:40 Yes, yes, yes. We want it to be okay. We want it just to go back to normal without the bad guy, they figured out. First of all, the understanding of how it seeps into everything, contaminates everything is not understood. So if the bad guy is gone, so to speak, then let’s just be fine. But if a bad guy had run a truck over a half of the denomination and nobody could walk, what would you do? That’s clear there is the harm, and it’s still there, even though the people who drove the trucks got kicked out. But with this kind of thing, I think it’s easier for people to push it away and say, well, the bad is gone. And, this is good, whatever.   JULIE ROYS  30:34 Talk about the larger system. So I often refer to it as the evangelical industrial complex. I think you refer to it a little bit differently, but it’s the same thing. Often it’s not just the particular institution where there’s allegations being raised, but there’s an entire system behind that nation, a denomination, or even a camp like I think we saw that with Mike Bickle and sort of the International Houses of Prayer and their related ministries, and even that seeped into the Messianic ministries that were very much a part of this. Talk to those who maybe are somewhat naive about how these systems work. Because I know before, before I got a job several decades ago at Moody Radio, I didn’t know this existed. I was kind of like, pretty blind to it all. And I just thought, these are all wonderful ministries. And I think a lot of people believe that and  I wish it were all true; some of them are wonderful ministries. But talk about that system and  how it  exists and how it works.   DIANE LANGBERG 31:54 Well, even if you think of it just as a family or a big system like that,  the idea of the family, or the idea of a church, whatever. Those are good ideas. We love the idea. We want to help the idea. We want to make it grow. We want it to get bigger, and all of those things. And then something comes along that shows that there’s cancer  and so sometimes we ignore that. There’s plenty of organizations that do that. Sometimes the response is very superficial, and sometimes people really want to get rid of, say, those who are the source of the cancer, whatever, but they still aren’t doing any treatment for the cancer.   JULIE ROYS  32:42 Some of it’s quite carnal too, isn’t it? Just come down to, I mean, we’re talking dollars and cents with some of these.   DIANE LANGBERG 32:47 Oh my goodness, yes, fame and a whole lot of money.   JULIE ROYS  32:51 It really is amazing, once you get into this, when you realize how much the celebrity pastor supports the entire industry, whether it’s the mega church, whether it’s publishing, whether it’s Christian radio, because we rely on them for our programming and  to bring the big crowds,  or to bring the audience to a station, I mean, all of those things. And I think people don’t realize it is a billions, billions of dollars involved in evangelicalism.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:21 Be we tell ourselves, it’s all God’s work, and his message is getting out there, and people are hearing, and we have to protect that period .   JULIE ROYS  33:30 And despite the fact that these pastors are living in multi-million-dollar homes, sometimes multiple multi-million-dollar homes, and somehow we say they deserve it? like whether they deserve it or not, Christ didn’t live like.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:46  He certainly deserved it, right?   JULIE ROYS  33:50 And yet he, he never, you know, I always go back to Philippians two, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. But instead, emptied Himself and became a servant and it’s like we’ve forgotten that model. And sometimes I’m just like, wow.   DIANE LANGBERG 34:12 Well, I think in many ways, over, I don’t know how many decades, but that the Christian world has forgotten those things, which I can’t imagine how much grief we have caused our God.   JULIE ROYS  34:25 Despite these harms that you talk about in your book, and you explain, and we’ve talked about on this podcast, you express hope for the church. And I think a lot of folks are looking at the American church and not feeling very hopeful at all. Why do you feel that there’s hope?   DIANE LANGBERG 34:48 Because Jesus Christ exists. It goes back to him. But I have also in this work, met very fine, pastors, leaders, whatever, who have come in to see me, whether struggling with something or whatever, but who long to do right to please God, to love Jesus well, to love their people well. So I have not had a diet of only those who are either victims of terrible harm or doing the harm. I think if that’s all I’d had, I would have a much harder thing to think about in terms of my thoughts about God, and I did. There was a time, I don’t know how long ago it was now, some years where I decided I can’t do this anymore. It’s going to make me rotten  inside. And literally got down on my knees and said to God, okay, I’m done. You’ll have to let me know what other job you want me to do. Obviously, he did not do that, because I’m still there. That was a turning point for me in many ways, many of them wonderful. But you know, how much of that can you sit with and look at and not be made sick by it? If you’re not, something’s wrong with you. But if it does that to you, then, how do you deal with yourself?   JULIE ROYS  36:23 And I think one of the most insidious parts of religious abuse and trauma in the church is that it separates you often from community. And I have found, and I haven’t been in this nearly as long as you, but that community, and I think we need to sometimes redefine it. And I mean, I’m in a house church now, and I’ve talked about this on numerous podcasts, but it’s been a safe place for me. It’s been a wonderfully healing place for me. But it’s just been crucial. And I know not everybody has that opportunity, but somehow I just think we have to, we have to seek that out, even if it’s really difficult for us. And I understand some people need to take a break for a while, and I totally get that. And we had a very compassionate church, or house church, where there were a number of us that were wounded, that people were willing to sit with us in that and not try to make something out of what we were doing more than just loving people, which really is, I mean, that’s the essence of it, all right. Wow. That that you’re right. If all you encounter are toxic people doing toxic things, and I still feel this way to this day, the most beautiful people that I know still are Christians. Some of the most ugly ones that I’ve encountered are professing Christians, whether they know Christ, that’s between them and him. But yeah, I will still say  the most loving, beautiful human beings on this planet that I know are still Christians.   DIANE LANGBERG 38:16 Yes, and I have found that to be true. And I’ve sat with people sometimes for years working through growing up with abuse, churches abusing, I mean, just the idea that anybody can grow and have a life and bear good fruit out of all of that, it’s a miracle. But I watch it, it’s there, and it is a thing of beauty,   JULIE ROYS  38:43 Truly is. I’ve said this before, but you are an inspiration to me. I know you’re an inspiration to so many of the folks that are listening,. I would just love to know from you, and I know you, that there is no secret hill or secret formula. But as you’re looking back over five decades of work and your relationship with Jesus, what would be some things that you would say to us, and remaining true to the end, fighting the good fight, being able to say someday before Christ, or hearing him say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. We want to get there. How can we get there?   DIANE LANGBERG 39:40 Well, I think one of the things I would say is that I did try to quit once. I mean, I told God, I was quitting. I didn’t ask him anything. Probably, there’s something about me, of course, but I couldn’t do it. I was either gonna  react in ways that were harmful for people or just deaden myself. Those seem to be the only options, and that was a huge turning point for me. I obviously did stay with it. So he won, but he responded to me and helped me see things in way of the cross that I had not seen before, in who he is in his heart. So feel like quitting. I think that’s pretty normal, you know, and I think a lot of people do. But I think, yeah, I literally got down on my face on the floor, and said, I quit your turn, I don’t know what to do. But he responded, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so grateful I didn’t. I’ve learned more of him by staying I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also seen changes, not just in individuals, which I have, but in some systems, or at least portions of it was probably right.   JULIE ROYS  41:13 I mean obviously God could do all of the work that we do without us. He doesn’t need us, and yet he chooses to allow us to partner with what he’s doing in the world  and through that, we become different people. We become,  I’ve said it to my husband before, like I feel sometimes like he is making us more  enjoyable companions for him.   DIANE LANGBERG 41:44 Yes, we become more like Him. And you don’t feel it in the middle of it, and it takes a long time, but it’s somewhere along the way you look back and go, Oh, that’s not what I was like before. Has his aroma in it.   JULIE ROYS  42:01 Well, I just want to thank you so much for your work, for your writing, and I’m just absolutely thrilled that you’re coming to RESTORE in February. So looking forward to that. And a new thing thanks to Phil Monroe, your partner there, is having a pre-conference for counselors. Because, again, we need to minister to the counselors, to the caregivers, to the pastors, absolutely. And so I’m thrilled that we’re going to be able to do that, and you’re going to be able to participate in that. And then the conference as well and speaking to a lot of people who’ve been through an awful lot of church hurts. So very much looking forward to that. But thank you so much for taking the time today, and thank you for this new book, even though  we weren’t able to have you toward the last RESTORE, which, for me personally, was  a sacrifice, but definitely worth it in the book. So thank you.   DIANE LANGBERG 42:58 Well, thank you for having me, and I am glad for the work that you do. It touches people, but whose souls have been hurt, gives them a taste of light and love. So blessings on you..   JULIE ROYS  43:19 Thank you.   JULIE ROYS  43:22 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I would love to get you a copy of Diane’s latest book, When the Church Harms God’s People. This is our premium to donors this month. So if you give $40 or more to The Roys Report, we’ll send you a copy of Diane’s book. As many of you know, your gifts to this work is what makes it possible. We can’t do anything that we do, from our podcast to our daily reporting to our investigations, without your support. So please consider helping us out, and when you do, we’ll get you a copy of Diane’s book, When the Church Harms God’s People. To donate and get the book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Spotify, or YouTube, that way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Do you want to read the entire Bible, but feel like it's just too much of a challenge? If so, look no further - Mary DeMuth can help! Mary is the founder of a literary agency, author of too many books to count - including 90 Day Bible Reading Challenge: Read the Whole Bible, Change Your Whole Life. In this episode of the podcast, Mary shares a method of reading the Bible in its entirety in just 90 days that is practical and doable, whether you consider yourself a reader or not. Mary is always full of biblical knowledge and wisdom, and this conversation is no exception (and might even change your life)! You can connect with Mary and take her 90 day challenge at MaryDeMuth.com/bible. You can also find Mary's gorgeous scripture-focused artwork at MaryDeMuth.com/art (you absolutely have to see this shop!).

The pastors' wives welcome their literary agent Mary Demuth to the podcast. Mary is a daily podcaster at the PrayEveryDay.show, Scripture artist, speaker, and the author of over 50 books. In this episode, they discuss the heartache and disillusionment that come with spiritual abuse and church hurt. Mary vulnerably shares her very real pain while resting in the fact that God is still good and that the local church CAN be healthy.  Follow along with Mary: marydemuth.com To purchase the BOOK, head here:  https://pastorswivestellall.com/book⁠ To shop our MERCH, head here:  https://pastorswivestellall.com/shop⁠ Want to support the Pastors' Wives Tell All podcast ministry? Become a patron:  https://www.patreon.com/pastorswivestellall ⁠ SUBSCRIBE: ⁠Sign up⁠ for our email list and receive updates on new episodes, free gifts, and all the fun! Email sign up ⁠HERE⁠! CONTACT US:  hello@pastorswivestellall.com⁠ FOLLOW US: Website: ⁠pastorswivestellall.com⁠ Instagram: ⁠@pastorswivestellall⁠ Facebook: ⁠@pastorswivestellall⁠ JESSICA: Instagram: ⁠@jessica_taylor_83⁠, ⁠@come_away_missions⁠, ⁠@do_good_project__⁠⁠ Facebook: ⁠Come Away Missions⁠, ⁠Do Good Project⁠ Websites: ⁠Do Good Project⁠, ⁠Come Away Missions⁠ JENNA: Instagram: ⁠@jennaallen⁠, ⁠@jennaallendesign⁠ Facebook: ⁠@JennaAllenDesign⁠ Website: ⁠Jenna Allen Design⁠ STEPHANIE: Instagram: ⁠@msstephaniegilbert⁠ Facebook: ⁠I Literally LOL⁠ Website: ⁠Stephanie Gilbert

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlcMuch research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted? In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor's kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook. Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she's learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover. As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain. But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn't have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don't try to charge forward before the congregation has healed. Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It's also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who's in a church with others who've experienced deep church hurt. She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study. Guests Kayleigh Clark Kayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score. [00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. [00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast. [00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. [00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. [00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. [00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. [00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today. [00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now. [00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work? [00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy. [00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from. [00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here? [00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches. [00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working. [00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out. [00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma. [00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of. [00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple. [00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it. [00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen. [00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work. [00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that. We talk a lot about that on a lot of podcasts, but we often don’t address again, what’s this collective trauma that, that, you know, that it actually has a social aspect. So talk about why is it important that we begin addressing collective trauma and not just individual trauma, though, you know, obviously we each need to heal as individuals, but collectively as well. [00:08:24] Kayleigh: Yeah. So collective trauma is a newer field, even in psychological studies. So it’s, Not as old as individual trauma studies, and it actually became more popular through the work of Kai Erikson, who’s a sociologist. He’s not even a psychologist, but he studied collective trauma in kind of what he refers to as unnatural disasters. [00:08:43] Kayleigh: And so these disasters that are experienced by communities that have a human, like, blame component. So it was due to somebody’s negligence due to somebody’s poor leadership due to somebody’s abuse, and it’s on a community. And so Kai Erickson notes the, the social, he calls it the social dimension of trauma or collective trauma. [00:09:03] Kayleigh: And what he, he details there is that collective trauma is anything that disrupts and ruptures the, uh, relationships within a community. Distorting and taking apart their, uh, he calls it communality instead of community, but it’s their sense of, like, neighborliness. It’s their sense of being together. It’s their, Their shared identity and their, their shared memories are all now distorted. [00:09:26] Kayleigh: And so I think when we’re speaking specifically about the church, and when we’re looking at religious trauma and congregational trauma, we need to remember that the church is first and foremost, a community. And so sometimes I think that’s missed in our kind of American individualism. You know, a lot of people kind of view spirituality as this individualistic thing, but the church is a community. [00:09:48] Kayleigh: And so when we come together as the body of Christ, you know, when wounding happens, when trauma comes, it breaks down the relationships within that congregation, which really. is what makes it a church. The relationships are what make that a church. And so when trauma comes in and disrupts those and starts causing the divisions and the distrust and the he said, she said, and the choosing of sides and the church splits and all of these things have these ripple effects on the community. [00:10:19] Kayleigh: Um, and they really are, are traumatizing. And so what happens is that if we don’t deal, if we’re only dealing with the individual trauma, In part, that’s usually dealing with people who have left the church, right? And so usually the people who are seeking individual healing from their religious trauma, who are able to name that, who are able to say, I went through this, have often stepped outside of the church. [00:10:42] Kayleigh: Sometimes just for a season, which is completely understandable. They need that time away. They need time to heal. They’re, they don’t, feel safe. But what we’re missing when we neglect the social dimension of religious trauma are often the people who stay are these congregations who can’t name it yet, who can’t articulate that what they’ve gone through is religious trauma, who who maybe are still trying to figure out what that means. [00:11:07] Kayleigh: Often it means that we’re missing, um, you know, these, these the church that I served in, you know, isn’t one of these big name churches that’s going to get, you know, newscasted about. And they can’t necessarily name what happened to them as religious trauma because nobody’s given them the language for it. [00:11:25] Kayleigh: And so we’ve often missed these, these declining churches. We’ve missed because we haven’t remembered that Trauma is communal that trauma is relational. And so we need to, yes, provide as much care and as much resourcing as we can for the healing of individuals, because you can’t heal the community if the individuals don’t know. [00:11:44] Kayleigh: But we really need to remember that the community as a whole. impacted, and that especially when we’re talking about the church, we want to be able to heal and restore those relationships. And to do that means we have to address the social dimensions of the religious trauma. And so [00:12:01] Julie: often the people that, that stay aren’t aware of what’s happened to them. [00:12:08] Julie: Are they not even aware they’re traumatized? [00:12:11] Kayleigh: Right, right. Yeah. [00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. You introduced this, this concept, which is great. I mean, it’s, it’s a riff off of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which, you know, um, just an incredible book by, uh, Dr. Vander Kolk. But this idea that the body of Christ keeps the score. [00:12:33] Julie: Describe what you mean by that, that the body of Christ keeps the score when there’s this kind of trauma that it’s experiencing. [00:12:40] Kayleigh: Sure. So you kind of alluded to it earlier when you were giving an example of the removing of a toxic pastor, right? And then just the placement of a new pastor. And so often what happens in these situations where there’s spiritual abuse or, um, clergy misconduct or any of those things that’s causing this religious trauma, the answer seems to be, well, let’s just remove the. [00:13:00] Kayleigh: Problem person. And then that will solve everything. Um, well, what happens is we forget that trauma is embodied, right? And so you can remove the physical threat. Um, but if you remove the physical threat or the problem person, but this congregation still has this embodied sense of trauma in which they perceive threat now. [00:13:23] Kayleigh: So they’re reacting to their surroundings out of that traumatized position, because that’s what the collective body has learned to do. And so you see this, um, It’s a silly example, but I use it because I think people see it a lot. So you have a new pastor come in and the new pastor has a great idea, at least he or she thinks it’s a great idea. [00:13:46] Kayleigh: And it probably has to do with removing pews or changing carpet color. Okay. And so they present this, what they think is just a great harmless idea. And the response of the congregation is almost volatile and the pastor can’t figure out why. And often, unfortunately, what pastors have kind of been taught to identify is that they must just idolatry. [00:14:11] Kayleigh: They just have the past as an idol for them and they need to kill this golden cow. Right. And so it becomes this theological problem. Sure, there might be cases where that is the truth, but often I would say that there’s, um, a wonderful. So another great book on trauma. It’s more on racialized trauma, but it deals a lot with historical trauma is, um, rest my Mac mannequins book, um, my grandmother’s hands and in it, he addresses this historical trauma that is embodied and he quotes Dr. [00:14:42] Kayleigh: Noel Larson, who says, if it’s hysterical, it’s probably historical. In other words, if the reaction to the thing happening doesn’t seem to match, like it seems out of proportion, either too energized or not enough energy around it, it’s probably connected to some kind of historical trauma that hasn’t been processed. [00:15:03] Kayleigh: And so we see this a lot in churches who are having a hard time being healthy and flourishing and engaging with the community around them. And. The reason why is often because they have this unhealed trauma that nobody’s given them language for. Nobody’s pointed out, nobody’s addressed for them. Um, and so it’s just kind of lingering under the surface, unhealed, unnamed, and it’s informing how they believe, how they act. [00:15:33] Kayleigh: Um, and so this is really What I mean when I say the body of Christ keeps the score is that the body of Christ has embodied this trauma and it’s coming out in their behaviors, in their actions, in their values, and our pastors are not equipped to address it from a trauma informed perspective. They’ve only been given tools to address it from maybe a theological position, or this kind of revitalization remissioning perspective. [00:16:02] Kayleigh: That often doesn’t work. [00:16:04] Julie: There’s so many things I’m thinking as as you’re talking. I mean one. to come in and do something. And then because people react to, I mean, basically that’s shaming them. It’s guilting them to say, Oh, you have an idol or what’s wrong with you that you can’t get on board. And the truth is they don’t know what’s wrong with them. [00:16:23] Julie: They, they don’t. And, and they’re hurt. And all they know is you just, they’re hurt and now you’ve hurt them. So now they don’t trust you. So way to go. Um, but I’m thinking maybe because we brought this up and I don’t mean to beat up on, on Willow Creek, but I’m thinking about. When the new pastor came in, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy, um, you know, they, they were bleeding money. [00:16:45] Julie: Obviously they, they did not have the resources they did before. So one of the first things they did was they centralized, which meant the campus pastors weren’t going to be preaching anymore. They were going to be pumping in video sermons. Here’s the pastor that people trusted on these campuses. Now, that person’s not going to be preaching, which then of course, all of them left. [00:17:06] Julie: They ended up leaving and the trauma you’d now it’s trauma upon trauma. And it just seems like, especially in so many of these churches, you bring somebody in and they want to move somewhere like, right. They want a thriving church. What they don’t want to do is be at a church and sit in your pain. And yet. [00:17:27] Julie: Unless that’s done, I mean, can these churches, I mean, can they move forward? I mean, what’s going to happen if you come in and you don’t? slow down and say, these people are hurting and I need to, I need to be a shepherd. Then that’s the other thing. It’s so many of these mega churches, and I know this isn’t unique to mega churches that this happens, but I, it’s the world in which I report so often is that these mega churches are very mission vision, five year plan oriented and what they’re not capable of doing. [00:17:59] Julie: I think so many of these, you know, and they always bring in the, the pastor. That’s a good orator, maybe not a shepherd at all. In fact, some of these guys even say, I’m not a shepherd, which that’s another, yeah, I mean, but, but to actually, they need a shepherd at that point. Right. I mean, these, these people need it. [00:18:20] Julie: So, I mean, again, what, what do they need to do? And what happens if they don’t do some of these things? [00:18:28] Kayleigh: So the thing that I have really been drawn to, especially as I study Jesus, and I look at what it means to be trauma informed in the pastorate. So I, I do believe that God is still working through pastors. [00:18:39] Kayleigh: Um, in fact, there’s a really beautiful section of scripture in Jeremiah 23, where God is addressing abusive shepherds and God’s response is, I will raise up new shepherds. So God still wants to work through shepherds. There is still a place for a pastor. The problem is, is I don’t think we’ve taught pastors how to lead out of a posture of compassionate curiosity. [00:19:03] Kayleigh: And so if you follow Jesus and you look at the way that Jesus interacts with hurting people, it is out of this beautiful, humble posture of compassionate curiosity. And so I was always struck by like, he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? And it always seemed like a. That’s a strange question. [00:19:20] Kayleigh: Like, he’s blind, Jesus. What do you think he and often it’s preached on, like, well, we need to be able to tell God what we want. And that’s maybe some of it. But I think it’s also the truth that God knows that it can be re traumatizing to somebody to tell them what they need and what they want. Right? So what we learned when we studied trauma is that it’s not. [00:19:40] Kayleigh: So especially when we’re talking trauma caused by abuse is that abuse is so connected to control. And so what has often happened to these victims of religious abuse of spiritual abuse is that they have had control taken from them entirely. And so when a new pastor comes in and tells them, this is what you need to get healthy again, and never takes the time to approach them from this. [00:20:02] Kayleigh: posture of compassionate curiosity, they can end up re traumatizing them. Um, but our pastors aren’t trained to ask these questions. And so, so often if you read, you know, and they’re well meaning books, you know, they’re, they’re trying to get to what’s going on in the heart of the church. They’re trying to get back to church health, but so many of the books around that have to deal with. [00:20:23] Kayleigh: Asking the church, what are you doing or what are you not doing? And trauma theory teaches us to ask a different question. And that question is what happened to you? And I think if pastors were trained to go into churches and ask the question, what happened to you and just sit with a church and a hold the church and, and listen to the stories of the church, they, they might discover that these people have never been given space to even think about it that way. [00:20:52] Kayleigh: You know, where they’ve just, they’ve had abusive leaders who have just been removed or they’ve had manipulative leaders who have just been removed and they’ve just been given a new pastor and a new pastor and nobody’s given them the space. To articulate what that’s done to them, um, as individuals and as a congregation. [00:21:09] Kayleigh: And so if we can learn to, to follow Jesus in just his curiosity, and he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? He, he says, who touched me when the woman reaches out and touches him. And that’s not a, it’s not a question of condemnation. That’s a question of permission giving. He knows that this woman needs more than physical healing. [00:21:28] Kayleigh: She needs relational healing. She needs to tell her story. And by pausing and saying, who touched me? He provides a space for her to share her story that she’s never been able to share with anyone before. And I think if we were to follow that Jesus, as pastors and as leaders, we would begin to love the Bride of Christ in such a way that would lead to her healing, instead of feeling the need to just rush her through some five year plan to what we think is healing and wholeness, and what actually may not be what they would say is what they need. [00:22:02] Julie: So many things you’re saying are resonating with me. And part of that’s because, uh, like I said, we’re living this. Um, I, I told you last week when we talked that our, our house church was going on a retreat, first retreat we’ve ever had. We’ve been together a little over, well, for me, I came in about two years ago and I think they had been meeting maybe eight or nine months before then. [00:22:29] Julie: Some of the people in our group, Um, don’t come out of trauma. Um, you know, one of our, one of the couples in our church, uh, they’re like young life leaders, really just delightful, delightful, delightful people, but they haven’t lived the religious trauma. One couple is, they’re from the mission field and they had a great missions experience. [00:22:55] Julie: The only trauma they might be experiencing is coming home to the U. S. The truth is they love the mission field, right? Um, and then. The remainder of us come from two, two churches, um, that, that had some sexual abuse that was really, you know, mishandled and the trust with the leaders was, was broken in really grievous ways. [00:23:19] Julie: Um, and then there’s me on top of having that, um, living in this space where, I mean, I just report on this all the time. And so, but one of the beautiful things that happened in this, in this group is that it did have leaders when we came into it and it triggered us. Like, you know, and for us it was like, oh, here’s the inside group and the outside group. [00:23:47] Julie: Like, we’re used to the ins and the outs, right? And, and we’re used to the inside group having power and control, and the rest of us just kind of go along with it. And, and we’re, we’re a tiny little group. Like we’re 20 some people, right? But, but it’s just, and, and we’re wonderful people. Wonderful people. [00:24:02] Julie: And yet we still like, it was like, mm. And um, and so. The beautiful thing is that those leaders recognize, like they didn’t fully understand it, but they said, you know, I think we need to just step down and just not have leaders. And I didn’t even realize till we went on this retreat what an act of service and of love that was for them to just say, were laying down any, any agendas we might’ve had, any even mission or vision that we might’ve had. [00:24:35] Julie: And for one of, you know, one of the guys, it was really hard for him cause he’s just like, Mr. Mr. Energy and initiative. And, and he was like, I better not take initiative because like, it’s, it’s not going to be good for these folks. Um, and on the retreat. So then, I mean, it was, it was really a Holy Spirit. [00:24:54] Julie: experience, I think for all of us, because there definitely was a camp that was like, okay, we’ve had this kind of healing time, but can, can we move forward a little bit? Like, can we, can we have some intentionality? And then there were part of us that were just like, oh my word, if we, if we, if we have leaders, why do we need leaders? [00:25:12] Julie: We’re 20 something people. Like we can just decide everything ourselves. And, and there really was somewhat of an impasse, but it’s interesting. The things that you said for me, And it was funny at one point. They’re like, can’t you just trust? And, you know, kind of like, what, what are you guys afraid of? You know? [00:25:29] Julie: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was control control. Like we’re afraid of control, um, or I’m afraid of control. Um, but what was so, so. Huge for me and I think was one of those again, Holy Spirit moments was when, you know, I was trying to like make a point about power dynamics, like you don’t realize power and like we have to be aware of how power is stewarded in a group like this because everybody has power. [00:25:59] Julie: If you don’t realize as a communicator the power that you have, like I’m aware now that because I can, I can form thoughts pretty quickly. That I can have a lot of influence in a group. I’m aware of that. And so, you know, there was even like a part where I was leading and then I was like, I can’t lead this next thing. [00:26:17] Julie: I’ve been leading too much, you know, and then we, and then we gave, we, somebody had a marker and we gave the marker to, to, um, one of the guys in our group who’s fantastic guy. And, um, And at one point, so, so anyway, I was talking about power and, and one of the guys was like, well, I don’t, I don’t really see power. [00:26:35] Julie: I don’t need. And I’m like, you have it, whether you realize it and you have it. And what was huge is that one of the other guys that sort of a leader was a leader was able to say what she’s talking about is real. Everybody has power. This is really important. And he was quite frankly, somebody with a lot of power in that group because he has a lot of trust, used to be a pastor. [00:26:57] Julie: Um, and for him to acknowledge that for the rest of us was huge. And then this, this other guy, I mean, he said at one point, Oh, well, you know, so and so’s holding the marker right now and he has power, doesn’t he? And I was like, yes, you’re getting it. That’s it. That’s it. Thank you. Because he’s like, you just reframed what we said and I wouldn’t have reframed it that way. [00:27:22] Julie: Like I wouldn’t. And I’m like, yes, exactly. It’s like, and it was like, it was like the light bulbs were going on and people were starting to get it. Um, and then another key, key moment was when one of the women who, you know, wasn’t, you know, from our church where we experienced stuff, who said, can you, can you tell me how that, how that felt for you when we used to have leaders? [00:27:46] Julie: And then for people to be able to express that. And people listened and it was like, and I was able to hear from this guy who felt like he was, he had a straight jacket, you know, because he, he like wants to use his, his initiative. Like he, he. You know, and God’s given that to him. It’s a good thing, you know. [00:28:07] Julie: And all I can say is it was just an incredible experience, an incredible moment, but it would not have happened if, and now I’m going to get kind of, it wouldn’t have happened if people cared more about the mission than the people. And they didn’t realize the people are the mission. This is Jesus work. He doesn’t care about your five year plan. [00:28:41] Julie: He doesn’t care about your ego and the big, you know, plans that you have and things you can do. What he cares is whether you’ll lay your life down for the sheep. That’s what shepherds do. And what I saw in, in our group was the willingness to, for people that have shepherding gifts to lay down their, you know, not literally their lives, but in a way their lives, their, their dreams, their hopes or visions, everything to love another and how that created so much love and trust, you know, in our group. [00:29:22] Julie: And we’re still like trying to figure this out, but yeah, it was, it was hugely, it just so, so important. But I thought how many churches are willing to do that, are willing to, to sit in the pain, are willing to listen. And I’m, I’m curious as you go in now, there’s so much of your work has become with ReStory is, is education and going into these churches. [00:29:52] Julie: You know, normally when this happens, And you told me there’s a, there’s a name for pastors that come in. It’s the afterpastor. Afterpastor. [00:30:00] Kayleigh: Yes. The afterpastor. [00:30:02] Julie: How many times does the afterpastor get it? And does he do that? [00:30:07] Kayleigh: So the problem is, and I can tell you, cause I have an MDiv. I went, I did all the seminary. [00:30:11] Kayleigh: I’m ordained. We don’t get trained in that. Um, so, and there is, um, like you said, so you use this guy as an example who has the clear. Initiative gifts. So they’re what would be called kind of the Apostle, um, evangelist gifts in like the pastoral gift assessment kind of deal. You’ve got the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. [00:30:34] Kayleigh: And right now there’s a lot of weight kind of being thrown behind the Apostle evangelist as kind of the charismatic leader who can set the vision. And so most of the books on pastoral You know, church health and church are written kind of geared and directed that way. Um, so we’re really missing the fact that when we’re talking about a traumatized church, what you really need is a prophet shepherd. [00:30:57] Kayleigh: Um, you need somebody who can come in and shepherd the people and care for them well, but also the prophet. The role of the prophet is often to help people make meaning of their suffering. So if you read closely, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, particularly who are two prophets speaking to people in exile, what they’re really doing is helping people make meaning of that suffering. [00:31:17] Kayleigh: They’re helping people tell their story. They’re, they’re lamenting, they’re crying with them. They’re, they’re asking the hard questions. Um, and they’re able to kind of see between the lines. So prophet, Pastors who have kind of that prophetic gifting are able to see below. They’re able to kind of slow down and hear the actual story beyond the behaviors, right? [00:31:35] Kayleigh: So the behaviors aren’t telling the whole story, but we need eyes to see that. And so the problem, I would say, is that a lot of well, meaning pastors simply aren’t taught how to do this. And so they’re not given the resources. They’re not given kind of the, um. this like Christian imagination to be able to look at a church and say, okay, what has happened here and what healings take place here? [00:31:59] Kayleigh: Um, the other problem is, you know, we need to be able to give space. So denominational leaders need to be able to be okay with a church that maybe isn’t going to grow for a few years. And I think that is whether we like it or not. And we can say all day long that we don’t judge a church’s health by its numbers. [00:32:19] Kayleigh: But at the end of the day, pastors feel this pressure to grow the church, right? To have an attendance that’s growing a budget that’s growing and. And so, and part of it is from a good place, right? We want to reach more people from Jesus, but part of it is just this like cultural pressure that defines success by numbers. [00:32:36] Kayleigh: And so can we be okay with a church that’s not going to grow for a little while? You know, can we be okay with a church that’s going to take some like intentional time to just heal? And so when you have an established church, um, which is a little bit different than a house church model, it can be. A really weird sacrifice, even for the people who are there, because often what you have is you have a segment of the church who is very eager to move forward and move on and and to grow and to move into its new future, and they can get frustrated with the rest of the church. [00:33:15] Kayleigh: That kind of seems to need more time. Um, but trauma healing is it’s not linear. And so, you know, you kind of have to constantly Judith Herman identifies like three components of trauma healing. And so it’s safety and naming and remembering and then reconnecting, but they’re not like you finish safety and then you move to this one and then you move to this one. [00:33:36] Kayleigh: Often you’re kind of going, you’re ebbing and flowing between them, right? Because you can achieve safety and then start to feel like, okay, now I can name it. And then something can trigger you and make you feel unsafe again. And so you’re now you’re back here. And so, um, um, Our churches need to realize that this healing process is going to take time, and collective trauma is complicated because you have individuals who are going to move through it. [00:33:57] Kayleigh: So you’re going to have people who are going to feel really safe, and they’re going to feel ready to name, and others who aren’t. And so you have to be able to mitigate that and navigate that. And our pastors just aren’t simply trained in this. And so what I see happening a lot is I’ll do these trainings and I’ll have somebody come up to me afterwards and go, Oh my goodness, I was an after pastor and I had no idea that was a thing. [00:34:18] Kayleigh: And they’re like, you just gave so much language to my experience. And you know, and now I understand why they seem to be attacking me. They weren’t really attacking me. They just don’t trust the office of the pastor. And I represent the office of the pastor. Okay. And so sometimes they take that personally again, it becomes like these theological issues. [00:34:38] Kayleigh: And so helping pastors understand the collective trauma and being able to really just take the time to ask those important questions and to increase not only their own margin for suffering, but to increase a congregations margin for suffering. You know, to go, it’s going to be, we can sit in this pain. [00:34:58] Kayleigh: It’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s going to be important, you know, learning how to lament, learning how to mourn. All of these things are things that often we’re just not trained well enough in, um, as pastors. And so therefore our congregations aren’t trained in them either. You know, they don’t have margin for suffering either. [00:35:14] Kayleigh: Um, and so we need to be able to equip our pastors to do that. Um, and then equip the congregations to be able to do that as well. [00:35:20] Julie: So good. And I’m so glad you’re doing that. I will say when I first started this work, um, I was not trauma informed. I didn’t know anything about trauma really. And I didn’t even, you know, I was just a reporter reporting on corruption and then it turned into abuse in the church. [00:35:38] Julie: And I started interfacing with a lot of abuse victims. who were traumatized. And I think back, um, and, and really, I’ve said this before, but survivors have been my greatest teachers by far, like just listening to them and learning from them. But really from day one, you know, it’s loving people, right? It really, it like, if you love and if you empathize, which You know, some people think it’s a sin, um, just cannot, um, but if you do that and, and that’s what, you know, even as I’m thinking about, um, within our own, our own house church, there were people who weren’t trained, but they did instinctively the right things because they loved. [00:36:28] Julie: You know, and it just reminds me, I mean, it really does come down to, they will know you are Christians by your love. You know, how do we know love? Like Christ laid down his life for us. He is our model of love and, and somehow, you know, like you said, the, in the church today we’ve, we’ve exalted the, um, what did you say? [00:36:49] Julie: The apostle evangelist? The apostle evangelist. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we’ve exalted that person, um, you know, And I think we’ve forgotten how to love. And too many of these pastors don’t know how to love. They just don’t know how to love. And it’s, it’s tragic. Because they’re supposed to be I mean, the old school models, they were shepherds, you know, like you said, like we need apostles, we need evangelists. [00:37:16] Julie: But usually the person who was leading the church per se, the apostles and evangelists would often end up in parachurch organizations. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. I think the church needs all of those things. Um, and, uh, But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve left that behind, sadly. And there’s nothing sexy about being a shepherd. [00:37:37] Kayleigh: Yeah, no, I, all, all of the Apostle, I mean that, well, the whole thing is needed, um, and it’s most beautiful when we just work together, and, and when they can respond to each other. So, I mean, me and you’re an example in your house, you’re a visiting example of this. You can’t, even if just listening, you have some clear Apostle evangelists in your group, right? [00:37:54] Kayleigh: I mean, Um, right? And so you have these people wired for that, and yet they’re able to, to learn and respond to some of the people in the group who have more of those prophet shepherd tendencies. And so I think that that’s really what, and that’s loving, right? So we should go back. It’s just loving one another and learning from one another. [00:38:17] Kayleigh: And knowing when to lean into certain giftings and to learn from others giftings. This is why it’s the body of Christ. And so when a component of the body of Christ is left out, we can’t be who God’s called us to be. And so when we neglect the role of the shepherd and neglect the role of the prophet or minimize them, or see them as secondary, then we’re not going to do called us to be. [00:38:44] Kayleigh: You know, we may need all of it to come together to do what God has called us to do. God is working in this church. He’s worked all through this church. He has established it and called it, and He’s going to use it. But we need to be learning how He has built it and how He framed it. For me to love one another and not elevate one gifting above another. [00:39:07] Julie: And it’s interesting too, you mentioned the office of the pastor. Um, I know as we were discussing some of this, we have one guy who’s very, I mean, actually our entire group, and I think this is probably why we’ve been able to navigate some of this. It’s it’s a really spiritually mature group. A lot of people. [00:39:26] Julie: who have been in leadership, um, which sometimes you get a lot of leaders together and it can be, you know, but this hasn’t been that way because I think people really do love the Lord. Um, and they love each other. Um, but one of the things that was brought up, um, is Is the pastor an office or is it a role and have we made it into an office and, and what we realized in the midst of that and I, you know, I, I’m like, well, that’s really interesting. [00:39:57] Julie: I would like to study that. And I find there, there’s a curiosity when you talk compassionate curiosity, I think there’s also a curiosity in, in people who have been through this kind of trauma. There’s a curiosity in, okay, what, what did we do? that we did because everybody said that’s how we’re supposed to do it. [00:40:18] Kayleigh: Yeah. [00:40:18] Julie: Yeah. Do I really have that conviction? Could I really argue it from scripture? Is this even right? And so I find even in our group, there is a, there is a, um, there’s a curiosity and maybe this is because we’re coming through and we’re in, you know, I think a later stage of healing is that now we’re like really curious about what should we be? [00:40:44] Julie: Yes. Yes. What should we be, like, we, we want to dig into what, what is a church, what should it really be, and what, why, how could we be different? Of course, always realizing that you can have the perfect structure and still have disaster. Um, it really does come down to the character of the people and, and that, but, but yeah, there’s a real, Curiosity of, of sort of, um, digging, digging into that. [00:41:10] Julie: And, and let me just, I can ask you, and, and maybe this will be a rabbit trail, maybe we’ll edit it out. I don’t know. Um, , but, but I am curious what do, what do you think of that idea that the, the pastorate may be a role that we’ve made into an office and maybe that could be part of the problem? [00:41:27] Kayleigh: I think that’s a lot of it. [00:41:28] Kayleigh: Um, because when we turn the, the pastorate into an office, we can lose the priesthood of all believers. So that I think is often what happens is that, um, you create this pastoral role where now all of the ministry falls on to the pastor. And so instead of the pastor’s role being to equip the saints for the ministry, which is what scripture says, the scripture describes a pastor as equipping the saints for the ministry. [00:41:56] Kayleigh: Now the pastor is doing the ministry, right? There’s, there’s just all of this pressure on the pastor. And that’s, that’s where I think we start to see this. The shift from the pastor being the one who is, you know, encouraging and equipping and edifying and, you know, calling up everybody to live into their role as the body of Christ where we’ve seen. [00:42:19] Kayleigh: You know, I have a soft spot for pastors. Again, I’m like, they’re all my relatives are them. I love pastors and I know some really beautiful ones who get into ministry because that’s exactly what they want to do. And so what has often happened though, is that the, the ways of our culture have begun to inform how the church operates. [00:42:40] Kayleigh: And so we saw this, you know, when, when the church started to employ business In kind of the church growth movement. So it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to grow things? Business people know how to grow things. Okay. Well, what are they doing? Right. And so now that the pastor is like the CEO, people choose their churches based on the pastor’s sermon, right? [00:43:00] Kayleigh: Well, I like how this pastor preaches. So I’m going to go to that church. Um, so some of it is. So I would say that not all of it is pastors who have like that egotistical thing within them at the beginning. Some of it is that we know that those patterns exist. But some of these men and women are genuinely just love the Lord’s people and then get into these roles where they’re all of a sudden like, wait, I, Why, why is it about me and others, this pressure to preach better sermons and the person down the road or, you know, run the programs and do all of these things instead of equipping the people to do the work of God. [00:43:38] Kayleigh: And so I think it’s, it’s about, and right, I think it’s happened internally in our churches, but I also think there’s this outward societal pressure that has shifted the pastor from this shepherding role to the CEO office. Um, And finding the, like, middle ground, right? So again, like, we can swing the pendulum one way and not have pastors. [00:44:05] Kayleigh: Or we can swing the pendulum the other way and have pastors at the center of everything. But is there a way of finding, kind of, this middle ground where people who are fairly calm and gifted and anointed by God to do rich shepherding can do it in a way that is Zen sitting that church that is equal famous saint that is calling the body of Christ to be what it is called be. [00:44:27] Kayleigh: And I guess I’m, I’m constantly over optimistic and so I’m convinced that there’s gotta be a way , that we can get to a place where pastors can live out of their giftings and live by their callings and live out of their long dreams in such a way. That leads to the flourishing health of the church and not to its destruction. [00:44:45] Julie: Yes. And, and I think if it’s working properly, that absolutely should be there. They should be a gift to the church. Um, and, and sadly we just, we haven’t seen enough of that, but that is, that is, I think the model. Um, let’s talk specifically, and we have talked, or we might not have named it, um, but some of the results of this collective trauma. [00:45:08] Julie: in a congregation. Um, let’s, let’s name some of the things. These are ways that this can, that this can play itself out. [00:45:17] Kayleigh: Sure. So when we’re talking about congregational collective trauma, one of the main results that we’ve talked about kind of in a roundabout way is this lack of trust that can happen within the congregation. [00:45:27] Kayleigh: And this can be twofold. We can talk about the lack of trust for the leadership, but it all also can be lack of trust. Just, In the congregation itself, um, this often happens, particularly if we’re looking at clergy misconduct that maybe wasn’t as widespread. So I think this is some of what you’ve kind of talked about with Willow Creek a little bit, and I’m, I wasn’t in that situation, but I’ve seen it other places where, you know, in our system, the denominational leadership removes a pastor. [00:45:56] Kayleigh: And so what can happen in a system like that is that denominational leadership becomes aware of abuse. They act on the abuse by removing the pastor. And what you have happening is kind of this, um, Betrayal trauma or this, you know, bias against believing. And so because the idea that their clergy person who they have loved and trusted, you know, shepherd them could possibly do something that atrocious. [00:46:24] Kayleigh: That idea is too devastating for them to internalize. So it feels safer to their bodies to deny it. And so what can happen is you can have a fraction of the church. that thinks it’s, you know, all made up and that there’s no truth to it. And they began to blame the denominational leadership as the bad guys or that bad reporter that, you know, the [00:46:45] Julie: gossip monger out there. [00:46:47] Julie: It’s so bad. [00:46:48] Kayleigh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you have this split. Now, sometimes it literally splits and people will leave. Um, but sometimes they don’t and they all stay. And so you have these fractions of people who believe different things about what happened. And so now there’s, there’s a lack of shared identity. [00:47:08] Kayleigh: So I would say one of the key components of collective trauma in a congregation is this mistrust, which is often connected to a lack of shared identity. And so they can’t really figure out who they are together. What does it mean for us to be a community to get there? Um, and so trauma begins to write their story. [00:47:27] Kayleigh: And so when we talk about the embodiment of trauma, one of the ways that that works in individuals, and this is like a mini neuroscience lesson that many of your listeners are probably aware of, because I think you have a very trauma informed audience. Audience, but, um, you know, that it, it makes us react out of those fight, flight, or freeze responses. [00:47:46] Kayleigh: And so that happens individually, right? So something triggers us and all of a sudden we’re at our cortisol is raised. We’re acting out of the, uh, you know, those flight flight places that happens communally too. So a community gets triggered by, you know, a pastor again, having what they think is just a creative idea, you know, but maybe it triggers that time that that pastor. [00:48:09] Kayleigh: Had a creative idea that was, you know, and ran with it without talking to anybody and just like wield the control and manipulated people. And now, all of a sudden, this pastor who thinks they just have this innocent, creative idea is now seen as manipulative. And what are they going to try to do behind our backs? [00:48:27] Kayleigh: And what are they going to try? And, and. What are they going to take from us? Right? And so trauma, trauma takes from people. And so now they’re living kind of out of this perpetual perceived fear, perceived threat, that something else is going to be lost. And so when you have a congregation that’s constantly operating out of, you know, this fight, flight, or freeze response. [00:48:52] Kayleigh: Collectively, I mean, how can we expect them to live out the mission that God has given them? Um, you know, they’re not, they’re not there. They’re not able to, um, they’re not able to relate to one another in a healthy way. And so we, we see a lack of kind of intimate relationships in these congregations, right? [00:49:09] Kayleigh: Because so the Deb Dana, who has helped people really understand the polyvagal theory, when we’re talking about, um, trauma talks about your, your, um, Nervous system, your autonomic nervous system is kind of being like a three rung ladder. And so in this three rung ladder, you have the top rung being your ventral bagel state, which is where you can engage with people in safe and healthy ways. [00:49:32] Kayleigh: And then you move down into kind of your sympathetic nervous system. And this is where you’re in that fight flight freeze and then dorsal bagels at the bottom. And in those two middle and bottom, you can’t build these deep relationships. And again, deep relationships are what make a church a church. And so if you have a congregation that’s stuck in these middle to bottom rungs of this ladder, they’re, they’re fight, flight, freeze, or they’re withdrawing from one another. [00:49:54] Kayleigh: You’re, you’re losing the intimacy, the vulnerability, the safety of these congregations to build those kinds of relationships. And so I would say that, that distrust, that lack of shared identity and that inability to build deeper kind of relationships are three kind of key components of what we’re seeing in congregations who are carrying this collective trauma. [00:50:16] Julie: And yet, if you work through that together, like I will say right now, I feel a great deal of affection for, for everyone. Uh, in our house tours because we went through that chaos together, but also it was, it was an opportunity to see love and people lay down their lives for each other. So to, to be able to see, I mean, you begin writing a new story instead of that old story that’s been so dominant, you know, that you have to tell, you have to work through. [00:50:50] Julie: Yeah, you do. And, and, and you have, you do. I love where you say, you know, people need to, to hear that from you. Yeah. I think that’s really, really important for people to have a safe place. But then at the same time, you can’t, you don’t want to live the rest of your life there. You don’t want that to define, define you. [00:51:09] Julie: Um, and that’s, that’s what’s beautiful though, is if you work through it together, now you, you’ve got a new story, right? You’ve got, you’ve got Dodd doing something beautiful. Um, among you and, and that’s what he does. [00:51:23] Kayleigh: That’s why we call our organization Restory. Um, it is a word used in trauma theory and in reconciliation studies to talk about what communities who have experienced a lot of violence have to do is they have to get to a place where they’re able to, it’s exactly what you’re talking about with your house churches doing is you guys have kind of come to a place where you’re able to ask the question, who do we want to be now? [00:51:45] Kayleigh: And this is this process of restorying. And so what trauma does is in many ways, for a while, it tries to write our stories. And for a while, it kind of has, because of the way that it’s embodied, we kind of, it has to, right? Like we have to process like, okay, I’m reacting to this. trigger because of this trauma that’s happened. [00:52:05] Kayleigh: So how do I work through that? You know, how do I name that? How do I begin to tell that story? And so we, and we have to tell the story, right? Because I mean, trauma theory has been the dialectic of traumas, but Judith Herman talks about is it’s very unspeakable because it’s horrific, but it has to be spoken to be healed. [00:52:22] Kayleigh: Right. And so with this trauma, it can be hard to speak initially. But it needs to be spoken to be healed. But once we’ve done that, once we begin to loosen the control that trauma has on us. Once we’re able to speak it out loud, and then we can get to a place individually and communally where we can start to ask ourselves, Who do we want to be? [00:52:45] Kayleigh: And who has God called us to be? And no, things are not going to be the way they were before the trauma happened. I think that’s the other thing that happens in churches is there’s a lot of misconception. That healing means restoring everything to the way it was before. And when that doesn’t happen, there’s this question of, well, well, did we, did we heal? [00:53:06] Kayleigh: And we have to remember that we’re never going back to the way it was before the trauma happened. But we can begin to imagine what it can look like now. Once we begin to integrate the suffering into our story, and we begin to ask those helpful questions, and we take away the trauma’s control, now we can ask, who do we want to be? [00:53:24] Kayleigh: And we can begin to write a new beautiful story that can be healing for many others. [00:53:29] Julie: A friend of mine who has been through unspeakable trauma, I love when she talks about her husband, because they went through this together, and she often says, he’s like an aged fine wine. You know, and I love that because to me, no, you’re not going back to who you were, but in many ways who you were was a little naive, little starry eyed, a little, you know, and, and once you’ve been through these sorts of things, it is kind of like an aged fine wine. [00:54:01] Julie: You have, you’re, you’re aged, but hopefully in a beautiful way. And, you know, I, I think you’re way more compassionate. Once you’ve gone through this, you’re way more able to see another person who’s traumatized and And to, you know, reach out to that person, to love that person, to care for that person. And so it’s a beautiful restoring. [00:54:26] Julie: And we could talk about this for a very long time. And we will continue this discussion at Restore, [00:54:33] Kayleigh: um, because [00:54:34] Julie: you’re going to be at the conference and that was part of our original discussions. So folks, if you wanna talk more to Kaleigh , come to Restore. I, I’m, I’m gonna fit you in somehow because , I’m gonna be there. [00:54:46] Julie: you’re gonna be there. But do you just have a wealth of, uh, I think research and insights that I think will really, really be powerful? And I’m waiting for you to write your book because it needs to be written. Um, but I’m working on it. , thank you for, for taking the time and for, um, just loving the body. [00:55:07] Julie: And in the way that you have, I appreciate it. [00:55:09] Kayleigh: Well, thank you. Because, you know, when I heard about your work and your tagline, you know, reporting the truth, but restoring the church, you know, I was just so drawn in because that’s what we need. The church is worth it. The church is beautiful and she is worth taking the time to restore. [00:55:24] Kayleigh: And I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing to make sure that that that happens. [00:55:28] Julie: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast and our investigative journalism, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report to support our ongoing work? [00:55:47] Julie: As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors. We mainly have you. The people who care about our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’d like to help us out, just go to Julie Roy’s spelled R O Y S dot com slash donate. That’s Julie Roy’s dot com slash donate. [00:56:07] Julie: Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy’s report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. [00:56:29] Julie: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

Author and speaker Mary DeMuth has a confession. She is addicted to ease. She longs for financial calm, no traffic, and for her home to clean itself. She wants God to make things easier and give her the abundant life—which means no conflict. But is that what life is all about? Don't miss the conversation on Chris Fabry Live. For more information about the work of Care Net, click here. Chris Fabry Live is listener-supported. To support the program, click here.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Have you ever read the whole Bible? How about in just three months? Well, according to today's guest, author Mary DeMuth, you can supercharge your walk with God by reading the entire Bible—cover to cover—in just 90 days. Now, I know what you're thinking, but believe me when I say it's totally doable and has a profound impact. It will transform how you view Scripture, build your confidence in handling the Word of God accurately, and immerse you into a powerful spiritual discipline. So, if your time in the Bible has felt tedious and you're longing to revitalize your faith, listen in! What you hear today may be just what you need. SHOW NOTES: 413Podcast.com/312 Enter to win the GIVEAWAY and read the episode TRANSCRIPT in the show notes. Get my weekly email, Java with Jennifer, to be notified when a new podcast episode releases. Subscribe HERE.

Stephanie here. I welcome Mary DeMuth again on the show, to talk about all the things we didn't get to talk about when she came on the first time. We talk about deep things – church hurt, forgiveness, compassion, multifaceted journeys deep into the heart of God. We talk about daring to start a new story when it feels too late. Mary is here to tell us, it's never too late to dream again, to trust God to write a new story out of the ashes of the old one. I love her for it. Mary loves Jesus. And really that's the most important thing about her. It's not writing or speaking or praying or mommying or any other -ing you can find. She flat out loves Him. Why? Because he has utterly, truly, completely re-storied her. See her testimony below. She has three adult children, and she's been married to Patrick for 33 years now. Mary counts those relationships as the most important people in her life. In the mid 2000s, their family helped plant a church in Southern France–a difficult, but amazing experience. In her spare (ha!) time, she loves to cook, run, garden, decorate, paint, and do interior design. She's been writing for 30+ years–half of them in obscurity. She mentored many writers during that time, and continues to do so through the Rockwall Christian Writers Group and some of her  instructional books. Since then she has written over 45 books, translated into five languages. You can see a listing of all her books on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, CBD, Lifeway and Parable. Mary pioneered a literary agency in 2022, Mary DeMuth Literary, where she shepherds writers toward traditional publishing. She currently lives in North Texas, serves in my local church alongside her husband, and she's had the privilege of speaking around the world in places like Johannesburg, Monaco, Geneva, Munich, Port-au-Prince, Nice and Florence. Although her past story is difficult, her current story leaks adventure. Not only has Mary been restored and restoried, but she longs to see the same for you. You no longer have to live haunted. She believes your new story starts today. Carl Bard wrote, “Though no one can go back and make a brand-new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand-new ending.” Paul reminds us of this important truth: “This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!” (2 Corinthians 5:17 NLT). Living in retrospect is a bad idea. It's time to heal, be set free, and find the new story God has for you. Mary has experienced God turning her storm into a story, moving her from a bitter story into a bigger one. Won't you join her on the adventure? https://www.marydemuth.com/ Mary's First Person Narrative:  My story is full of deep wounds. When I was five, the cane-shaking lady next door sprayed her blackberry bushes with poison so the neighborhood kids wouldn't eat the renegade berries that spilled over her fence into the common alley. I didn't understand that as I popped a huge handful into my mouth. “You're going to die! You're going to die!” she screamed at me after seeing my purple stained cheeks. I shook and cried, flailing myself on my bed. I obviously lived, but the fear of death took root in my heart. That same year, I faced more devastation. Neighborhood boys sexually assaulted me. As a result, I felt dirty, unwanted, uncared for, and quite alone. At ten years old, my world crumbled again when my biological father died. He'd been my hero, so his sudden, tragic loss sent me reeling. My fear of death magnified. A giant hole opened up in me–a daddy-shaped hole that sat unfilled. It seemed to grow every year, and the loneliness I felt without him sometimes felt stifling. Too much. Too hard. Too much grief for a girl ten years old. I fought my emotions, tried to wrangle them into submission. But they weren't easily managed. They stayed deep inside and erupted when I didn't want them to. I spent my sixth grade year making a decision. I would be a success. I would fill my great big hole with academic prowess. So I worked hard. From that point on, I would get an A in every subject I took. But I still missed my father, and I clung to my stepdad and mom, hoping they wouldn't die, all the while fearing death would nab me. During junior high, life felt unbearable and I considered killing myself--even though I feared death. My mom's marriage to my stepdad disintegrated and I frequently broke down at school, wracked with tears. A counselor gave me a hall pass so I could leave class at any time and cry, cry, cry to my heart's discontent. I didn't know why I was on this earth. What could possibly be my purpose? Skinny (scrawny, really) and awkward, I longed for a boyfriend to fill that aching need, but few came, and when a boy would show his interest, I would freak out and run the other way. If a boy tried to kiss me, I would break up, not able to cope with the fear that he would do far more. I wanted love and affection, but my fear pushed any semblance of that away. I continued down the road to academic success, sang solos, and tried to fill my heart up with school. But the empty part of me remained. Then came hope! My freshman year of high school, a friend invited me to Young Life. Every time the speaker said, “Jesus,” my heart pounded. The leader ended one of his talks by asking, “What kind of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?” (Matthew 8:27) The question echoed through my mind throughout the summer before my sophomore year. By the time I went to a Young Life weekend camp in the fall of that next school year, my heart longed to know this Jesus. When the camp speaker spoke of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, I knew I wanted to follow Him the rest of my life. I sat under an evergreen tree that evening and looked up into the star-pocked night, searching for the face of God. In that moment I gave Him my heart, life, past, pains, countless tears, and wounds of my childhood to the Father who would never leave me, to the God who conquered death. I've sought after him ever since. I didn't instantly heal, though. The road back to a re-storied, freedom-infused life has been long and tenuous. I've still dealt with a Daddy hole, but God is good to bring wholeness in those empty parts. I've been learning how to make Jesus my everything, letting Him fill everything, so I no longer have to chase lesser things. I wrote about that journey in Everything. The healing came when I chose to no longer be silent. When I decided it was time to tell my story, ask for prayer, and trust God to heal me. A life of secrets seldom heals. Today I'm still learning how to live free from the past, to rejoice in the great right now. What used to be a shameful, scary story is now my testimony of a re-storied life. I've written about it in my memoir, Thin Places. And I've chronicled my journey to healing after sexual abuse in Not Marked: Finding Hope and Healing after Sexual Abuse. I'm no longer the little girl who shuddered at the thought of death, post-berry-eating. I'm not the girl who experienced repeated rape at five. I'm not the daughter who lost a father to the specter of death. I'm not the teenager bent on destroying herself. I'm not the look-at-me-notice-me young adult who needed success to be her god. I'm simply Mary, loved wildly by Jesus. And my greatest desire and joy is to share that message of hope with you, to see you experience the re-storied life Jesus wants to give you. My prayer for you? That through my printed and spoken messages you'll encounter this same Jesus who can take your deepest wounds, and darkest trials, and re-story them into impossible joy. I'm a walking testimony to the healing grace of God. I embody and delight in this verse: “Remember, dear brothers and sisters, that few of you were wise in the world's eyes or powerful or wealthy when God called you. Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful. God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important. As a result, no one can ever boast in the presence of God” (1 Corinthians 1: 26-29, NLT). I was powerless, despised, counted as nothing and unimportant. But God saw differently. He rescued me. He knew that scared little girl would someday grow up and tell her story of redemption. I'm utterly and profoundly grateful to my dear, dear Jesus who set me free from the fear of death and filled up my heart. We invite you to check out the first episode of each of our series, and decide which one you will want to start with. Go to gospelspice.com for more, and go especially to gospelspice.com/podcast to enjoy our guests! Interested in our blog? Click here: gospelspice.com/blog Identity in the battle | Ephesians https://www.podcastics.com/episode/74762/link/ Centering on Christ | The Tabernacle experience https://www.podcastics.com/episode/94182/link/ Shades of Red | Against human oppression https://www.podcastics.com/episode/115017/link/ God's glory, our delight  https://www.podcastics.com/episode/126051/link/   Support us on Gospel Spice, PayPal and Venmo!

Could your past trauma be affecting your marriage? Maybe you glimpse it in your struggles to be open, lack of emotions, or low self-image. But what if instead of burying it, you could confront it to heal? Mary DeMuth shares survivor stories, offering hope for marriages to overcome past wounds. Show Notes and Resources Connect with Mary Demuth and catch more of their thoughts at marydemuth.com, and on Instagram, Facebook and X @marydemuth And grab Mary Demuth's book, Not Marked: Finding Hope and Healing After Sexual Abuse on her site. Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about Overcoming Abuse by listening to How God Turned my Mess into His Message. Want to hear more episodes by Mary DeMuth, listen here! Double your gift this month when you give to FamilyLife! Find resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com. See resources from our past podcasts. Find more content and resources on the FamilyLife's app! Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the FamilyLife Podcast Network

Are you suffering the effects of abuse? Mary DeMuth has lived it. She opens up about her own past sexual abuse and her path to healing. From shame to joy, her journey shows lasting peace is possible after trauma. Show Notes and Resources Connect with Mary Demuth and catch more of their thoughts at marydemuth.com, and on Instagram, Facebook and X @marydemuth And grab Mary Demuth's book, Not Marked: Finding Hope and Healing After Sexual Abuse on her site. Intrigued by today's episode? Think deeper about Overcoming Abuse by listening to How God Turned my Mess into His Message. Want to hear more episodes by Mary DeMuth, listen here! Double your gift this month when you give to FamilyLife! Find resources from this podcast at shop.familylife.com. See resources from our past podcasts. Find more content and resources on the FamilyLife's app! Help others find FamilyLife. Leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Check out all the FamilyLife's podcasts on the FamilyLife Podcast Network