Podcast appearances and mentions of diane langberg

263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack   Mark 10:27 NKJV "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Will you teach us about the various types of abuse? How do we respond appropriately and in a Christ-like manner when someone does report abuse? What are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to each type of abuse?   Stacey Womack is an award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She founded Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services (ARMS) in 1997 and she is a published author and sought after national speaker. Stacey developed and wrote the curriculum used for ARMS programs, including Her Journey for survivors of abuse and Mankind and Virtue for men and women who have used abusive behaviors. She has assisted tens of thousands of people in recovering from both the receiving and giving of abuse. Her passion has grown ARMS, a small grassroots organization, to now having an international reach.   Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services Website Stacey's Books   Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering   Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: 146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick 148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:50) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.    For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.   Stacey Womack is my guest today. She is the award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She is the founder of Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, which she will refer to as ARMS, and she's also the author of this practical and helpful resource entitled On the Front Lines of Abuse, Strategies for the Faith Community.   Stacey fearlessly answers questions today about what defines abuse, what steps can we take today to discover if we're in an abusive relationship, what does the Bible have to say about abuse and divorce, and so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.   Stacey Womack: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.    Laura Dugger: Would you mind just starting us off by giving us a current snapshot of your phase of life?   Stacey Womack: (1:52 - 2:48) Sure. You know, I've been doing this work for 27 years, but actually I grew up in a pastor's home and married young and had my children young. I have six children, and I have my 13th grandchild on the way, and my first great-grandchild is due in December. And in the midst of homeschooling my kids back in the day, God began to speak to me about ministry that he had for me.   And so, this was the door he opened, even though I'm not a survivor of abuse. And back then I never had planned on starting a nonprofit or, you know, having it be the way it is, never planned on having an income off of it. None of that was a part of the plan.   I was just being obedient to what God had called me to do. And so here we are today, 27 years later, providing services nationally and internationally to victims and survivors of abuse and also working with those who use abusive and controlling behaviors.   Laura Dugger: (2:50 - 3:12) Wow. And abuse is something that's so difficult to understand, and it's a topic that's easy for us to want to avoid. But I appreciate you bringing awareness to this topic that affects more people than we would ever suspect.   So, will you just teach us the various types of abuse?   Stacey Womack: (3:12 - 12:56) Sure. So, I'll try to go through them fairly briefly for you, but most of the time they only give you a few, but we have eight different areas of abuse that we talk about. So, you know, most people get physical abuse.   That's how most people define domestic violence and abuse is physical, which is all the things from hitting, pushing, slapping, grabbing, strangulation, which is something that's very dangerous. And a person's at risk of dying days and weeks after being strangled, even months after being strangled. So, it's a very serious crime.   Most states it's a felony. But every category has those things that aren't as obvious. So, in physical, it would be like posturing where someone stands up or takes a step towards you, it's right in your space.   The most common form of abuse is psychological, though. This is what is often called emotional abuse by most people. So psychological abuse, I kind of divided into three categories.   The largest one is the crazy making the mind games, the mental coercion, the gaslighting, all those things. And that's very, very hard to explain to people. And it doesn't look like abuse.   It looks like non-memorable conflict oftentimes and gets misdiagnosed that way, I guess you could say. And it's the form of abuse that women say is the hardest to heal from because bruises heal. But the emotional ones that psychological abuse causes can take years and years to heal from.   So also, another big category besides the mind games is the isolation. So, keeping them from friends and family could be outright telling them not to spend time with friends and family, or it could be, you know, allowing them to go spend time with friends and family, but then they pay for it later. So, there's some type of punishment for doing that.   Moving her from place to place, or church to church, to keep her from having any kind of support. So that's very common. And then another category in here, and I'm just keeping them very brief, is stalking behaviors, which stalking should be taken very seriously because 75% of those who commit homicides are stalkers.   So, this is everything from following, showing up uninvited, not leaving when asked, to the use of spyware, which is often free or cheap. So, you know, those air pods, they drop them in people's purses or put them in places in their car or whatever, just so they can follow them where they're going, those types of things. And among our younger generation, a common stalking behavior would be multiple calling and multiple texting.   So, the second closest that comes to emotional abuse would be verbal abuse. And most of us get the types of verbal abuse that are obvious, the yelling, the swearing, the name calling, the, you know, put downs. I mean, things that are really obvious.   And this is a huge category and not well understood because we have all used some verbal abuse in our lives. So, everything down to things that are more subtle, like the silent treatment as a way to control the conversation or sarcasm, which is actually means the tearing of flesh. So, it's not a healthy way to communicate.   There's a little bit of truth to it. That's what makes it funny. But it's always at someone's expense.   And we live in a pretty sarcastic world. And I, myself, can be pretty sarcastic at times after really watch that because it's really not a kind way to communicate. So, again, this is a huge category.   So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, lots of financial control and abusive relationships. Most of our men who are abusive use financial control. So, he's making all the financial decisions.   He's controlling the finances, or he allows her to have some access to finances, but not all by  hiding assets and hidden accounts, things like that. Or maybe making her handle all the finances while he goes out and misspends. So, then it's her fault.   And now he has a reason to abuse her. And even once they separate, financial abuse continues by not paying a spousal or child support. So, I tell our women to not depend on that, do what they need to do legally, but not to depend on it because it's very hard to get that money back.   So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, which people get that one too. Rape, unwanted touch, attacking body parts, making her dress a certain way or not dress a certain way. It could include extreme jealousy, which is, again, goes right back into those stalking behaviors.   So, it's these pornography affairs, sexual name calling or sexual putdowns or sexual jokes. Again, another really big category. So that a lot of times some more subtle things that people don't recognize as being abusive because a lot of people use it, like the sexual name calling or sexual using sexual cuss words.   So, I always have to go through those verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual property. We don't always think about property being abusive. But if an abuser can convince his victim that he's dangerous, he never has to be physical.   And so, he might punch the hole right next to your head. I had a woman tell me this. And then he saw the fear in her face, and he said, “What? I didn't even touch you.” But the message was, this is what could happen to you. So, property is not always it can include, but it is not always the breaking of things or throwing things.   It could be slamming doors, slamming hands on the table. But it could also be moving property to make her think she's going crazy. So, she has a place she keeps her keys. He moves them to make her think she's going crazy, that she can't remember where she's putting things anymore.   So, you always have an overlap in an abusive event. It's never just one form of abuse unless it's just psychological and very subtle. But property abuse also includes the use of weapons.   In the groups that we've been doing with men for the more than two decades that we've been working with them, usually they're not using the weapon there. It's the implied threat of use of weapons. So, we had one woman who went to her boyfriend's house, and he came out of his bedroom with a knife and laid it on the table and said, “I just don't know what I'd do if you left me.”   Or we had many guys in the program for tapping knives while they create and continue arguments with their partners. So, it could be any misuse of any property. It could even be gift giving to get her to comply back into the relationship.   So, it's not always what you think of when you think of like guns and knives. It doesn't have to be that way. It can be very subtle.   So then we have spiritual abuse, spiritual abuse. Since we're a faith-based organization, we talk about the misuse of scripture. So, he's using scripture to get her to comply, to get his way.   And God's word is a balance between judgment and love and mercy. And when you remove that love and they're just going with the judgment side of God's word, you are misusing God's word. It's not what God intended for his word.   He did not ever intend for the word to be weaponized against a person, especially in an intimate relationship. So, we talk about the difference between submission and oppression and how they are different from one another in our groups. It's also for our men who attend church regularly.   I always tell pastors, if you've got a man who's coming to you and he's working his way through the church leadership and he's being very humble and he's telling you that he knows he has his issue, but he's concerned for his wife that he's not really being abusive. That she just thinks he's being abusive to her because she's experienced abuse in the past or she has mental health issues or she's cheating on him, which is usually not true. They're doing this to discredit her while they're doing what we call public image management to make themselves look good to the public.   So, they're involved in all kinds of things. It may be on the church council. So, you know, when they tell their church leadership this, it's hard to believe.   It's hard for them to believe when she comes forward and says this is what's actually going on in my relationship because they've not experienced that from him. He's been a great guy around them. So, questioning her theology, her salvation, keeping her from going to church, making her go to church, moving her from church to church, things like that, too.   And then the last one is animal abuse. And of course, we think about harming animals. And of course, when you harm an animal, that is animal abuse.   But in terms of the work we do, it's about using the animal to control the person in some way. And that might include the threat to get rid of it, the threat to harm or the threat to kill or the doing of those things or neglecting, not like not feeding or watering the pet. But it could also be things like getting a pet she's allergic to or afraid of or withholding affection from her while he's being overly affectionate to the pet.   We have lots of women who tell us about that. So, again, it's not about necessarily harming the pet as much as it is about using the pet to gain control. You have to remember that abuse is about power and control and abuse means the misuse of.   So, anything can be misused, not just physical hitting and punching and misuse of our strength, but anything can be misused. And when it's used to gain power and control in an intimate relationship. It's a pattern; that's when you're looking at someone who has an abusive personality.   Laura Dugger: (12:57 - 13:27) Wow. Thank you for laying that foundation and expanding our definition. It sounds like so many sins, domestic violence can be insidious, and it can usually begin with a very charming spouse who eventually becomes more and more abusive.   So, have you found that people more easily recognize when they're in an abusive relationship or is it surprising and confusing to them?   Stacey Womack: (13:28 - 16:58) It's mostly confusing and surprising, maybe in that order. You know, since I work with these men, too, there are really great things about them. There's really good qualities I see in them.   And that's what these women fall in love with, these really great qualities. And these men can be extremely charming. And even if you haven't been raised in abuse and you find yourself in an abusive relationship, sometimes it's because you were in a really vulnerable place when you got involved.   And it just felt really good to have somebody come in and be so big and strong and great in your life. Or there's other times guys are just so good at this that they're just believe completely. There's no reason not to believe, right?   I mean, you trust somebody because you expect them to be telling you the truth. So, it usually starts off very subtle and it gradually increases. So, he might start questioning.   So, is that what you're going to wear? Or, you know, well, that's a lot of makeup. Or maybe, you know, telling her that he doesn't agree with something that she agrees with and that maybe her friends and family aren't good for her and maybe she needs to distance herself from them.   We've had women tell us that that happens to them. So, we have a checklist on our website under am I in an abusive relationship, basically. And underneath that, there's actually a PDF that they can print out and check off.   And it usually starts off with things like, are you surprised by his anger? Does his anger scare you? You know, and then we work down to more obvious forms of abuse.   But when a woman goes through that list and it's actually degenerate. So, a male or a female could go through the list. And they could go through it and they could determine, am I experiencing a pattern of these behaviors in my life?   Marriage should be the safest place for you. And when it's not, there's something wrong there. And we do work with women who are abusive.   So, I do want to acknowledge that there are male victims out there. And when they call us, since we don't have a group for them, because perpetrators believe they are the victims. So, if I opened a men's victim group, I would get a room full of perpetrators.   Male victims tend to say very similar things to our female victims and behave in very similar ways that our women behave as well. And so, we refer them out to counselors that we trust. And, you know, and women can be what we call primary aggressors in the relationship.   And they act and talk and say the same kinds of things as our male primary aggressors. And most primary aggressors are male because it just works better for them. They're bigger, they're stronger, they're given privilege that women are not given.   So, it just works better for them. But there are women out there who do that. And then there's those relationships where both parties are using abused.   But one is a primary and one is a secondary. It doesn't make the abuse okay. It doesn't even make it okay when you or I say something or act in a way that disregards or disrespects another person.   That's sin. So, I think that we need to be really honest with the fact that this is a human issue. And that it's okay to come out and say, you know what, I have a problem with this.   And I need help. And that's what we're trying to offer for both the men and the women that we serve.   Laura Dugger: (16:59 - 17:21) And I'm just simplifying it. But in my mind, when you talk about primary and secondary, it makes me think for that secondary person, just simply hurt people, hurt people. So, is that what you're talking about?   Where they are not the initiators of the abusive behavior, but when they are abused over time, they respond with abusive patterns as well?   Stacey Womack: (17:21 - 19:17) Yeah, abuse is a learned behavior. So, if they grew up in a home where abuse was present, you know, as much as you don't like some of those negative things that we all get from growing up, we get good things and bad things. We often end up repeating them until we learn something different. And so, some of our women in our secondary aggressors program, you know, have had to fight their entire life to survive.   And sometimes it's just safer to be the aggressor than it is to be the victim. And so, a lot of times when women are using abusive behaviors, it's more about trying to be heard or it's payback. So, they don't really gain power and control from their abuse, not really.   It's usually when they're abusive, the women are just getting payback for what their abuser did. So, one woman, her and her husband had an argument and he's this big guy. And so, to get back at him, we would call this properly anal and psychological.   She took the pillow and rubbed it all over the cat because he's allergic to cats and put the pillow back on the bed so he'd wake up with puffy eyes. It's a very passive form of abuse, but it is a way to get back at him. And then we have those women who just fight back verbally and they can.   I had this little gal, not probably hardly even 100 pounds. She could bring a 200 pound, six foot tall husband to his knees with just her words. And this is a woman who had to fight her entire life.   So, you know, you can see there's times where relationships where there's more. I don't really like the word mutual, but there's they're both using abusive behaviors, but it's the only way they know how to live life. And so, the women come out of this program saying, now I understand that his abuse to me does not excuse my abuse to him.   And I have power to make choices that will bring change to my life. And that's a powerful place to be much more powerful than being a victim.   Laura Dugger: (19:18 - 19:45) Absolutely. And I think the hope that I'm hearing is when you say abuse is a learned behavior. Does that mean we can learn our way out of it as well?   So, anyone who is in an abusive relationship or is finding if they're listening to this, maybe they find out that they are the abuser, you can learn your way out of it then?   Stacey Womack: (19:45 - 21:27) You can. It takes a tremendous amount of work. But both the victim and the perpetrator or the survivor, they have to learn new tools, both of them, because we have women who get out of abusive relationships who find themselves right back into another abusive relationship.   The tools that women use in abusive relationships are amazing. The ways that they do things to survive the abuse is absolutely amazing. But those same tools do not serve them well once they're out of abuse.   Some of them get into healthy relationships, but they're still using those old tools that they picked up during the abusive relationship. And so, they come to group a recovery group so that they can heal from that and learn a new way and let go of that pain and hurt and learn behavior so that they can also be healthy in that relationship with that new partner. So, and he also and for the abuser, someone who's like this is they've been the primary aggressor in the relationship and they have a lifetime of picking up belief systems that have given them permission to behave that way.   And that doesn't change in 12 weeks. Programs for those guys and those gals should be long; thirty-six weeks the absolute minimum. I think a year or even two years is better because you need practice to sustain change. We have lots of guys who change, but getting that sustained change takes lots of accountability and lots of hard work.   And it's difficult to do. But we have those stories of couples that make it. There's a lot more that don't make it.   All the men make some changes, but often not enough to save the relationship. So, it varies.   Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 23:38) And now a brief message from our sponsor, Grace Catering Company in North Peoria offers a rotating menu of scrumptious meals for you to take home and pop in your own oven with family friendly options like lasagna, bacon wrapped meatloaves, chicken Alfredo pasta, breakfast burritos and creamy garlic chicken breasts. Your homemade dinner will be on the table in no time. They also offer healthier and lighter options as well as some gluten-free and keto-friendly choices.   The meals are packaged in a variety of sizes, which makes it perfect for individuals or couples, or they have portions large enough to feed the entire family. Their menu is on a six-week rotation. You can stop by for a grab and go lunch with their signature sandwiches, salads, soups or quinoa bowls depending on the season.   I also recommend you top off your meal with one of their sweet treats, such as their popular scotcheroos, iced sugar or chocolate chip cookies, or their cookie of the month. The founder and owner Renee Endres has also created my all-time favorite cookbook. My grandparents actually gave this to me as a gift when I was a newlywed and it has been put to great use for the past decade and a half.   The recipes are easy and approachable and the feedback from our family and from guests we've hosted in our home has always been positive when the meal came from Renee. When I've gifted this cookbook to friends, they will commonly remark how these are also the most delicious desserts they've ever tasted. Our extended family also loves to use the take and bake options on Sunday afternoons, which allows us to enjoy a delectable meal while still getting to enjoy a true Sabbath.   Grace Catering Company is located just off Alta Lane in North Florida. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.    Well, and with your programs, what are some of the things that you do offer for someone who finds themselves in an abusive relationship?   Stacey Womack: (23:40 - 28:08) Yeah, so our largest program is called Her Journey and it's a victim survivor recovery program. So, it doesn't matter what form of abuse you experienced or are experiencing. It could be years ago even.   And we have this, it's a 15 week program, but we lead it year-round so you can just start immediately. It's one of the things that we found out as we've been doing this national campaign is that we're the only ones that we've found that are free. It's a free program.   We have Zoom. So, we have every day of the week covered. If we don't have something right in your own state, in your county.   But we're in-person groups in 21 states right now and looking to lead more or teach more leaders how to lead the program in their community, or in their centers, or in their missions. They're often held in churches. It's all confidential.   The women just call in. They don't have to give us their real name. They don't have to give us any information.   They don't want to. We just ask whatever name they use. They keep using the same name so we don't care if they say their name is Minnie Mouse.   That's fine with us. Just so that we can keep track of it for grant purposes. But in that group, it's not a process group.   It's really about hearing God's heart around this issue. And they do get training around domestic violence. But we also go through other topics like dealing with anger, depression and loneliness and just all the different things that happen throughout this process.   Learning how to appropriately boundary set and what to do and what's going to work with an abuser. What's not going to work with an abuser. Those types of things. And so, we found that we just keep it open so the women can join immediately. Because if we don't help them right when they're asking for the help, we'll lose them because the abuser will very quickly work to move them back into the relationship, which is part of the cycle of abuse. And because we want the relationship to work and we want to believe him, we do.   And so, women, you know, leave on average seven times before they leave for good because we don't get into a relationship to see it in. And so, when I talk and train pastors and I had a pastor say, “Well, she's just looking for a way out.” I'm like, “No, that's not true.”   These women do everything, including couples counseling, which is something that does not work when abuse is the issue and power control is the issue. And most pastors that I haven't heard of any seminary that actually does a whole course on domestic violence, they get a little bit of couples counseling and that's it. And even counselors don't get trained in domestic violence.   So, this is only a very small portion of counselors. So, I would tell these women, if you're listening to this now, that they shouldn't do couples counseling, but they should look for a counselor who has 40 hours of victim advocacy training from an advocacy agency and that he needs to go work on his own issues with an agency that deals with domestic abuse intervention. And a lot of times the things that she thinks, or they both think, they need couples counseling for go completely away once he does the work he needs to do.   So, the communication problems, the anger issues, all those things that they think are the cause are no longer an issue. Most of our couples don't even need couples counseling after this because he has learned to love like Jesus loves. That's what we teach is like, what does that mean to be Christlike?   What does that mean to lay your life down? So, but during our time that we work with women or men, secondary or primary aggressors, female or male, we in our groups talk about focusing on that themselves and their relationship with God and not focusing outward because God will take care of that. Sure, pray about it, but release it.   That's God's responsibility. You only have control of this relationship is between yourself and God. And that's where you're going to seek Him about what He's calling you to do in this situation.   And every person's a little bit different. It's not my place to tell someone whether to leave or stay. And we're not here to promote divorce.   And we know the women want their relationships to work. We know they want men to make it to the other side. We do, too, but we cannot make that happen.   So, all we can do is present the information and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work. And the person has to be willing to receive the help.   Laura Dugger: (28:09 - 28:35) Absolutely. Well, and I even think about how this conversation came about. We had multiple women of different ages, all of them believers, who were reaching out and sharing a little bit of their experience in marriage and sharing some potential abuse.   And I actually reached out to some publicists that I work with and said, “Who would be able to speak to this?” And so that's how we got connected.   Stacey Womack: (28:36 - 28:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (28:36 - 28:54) Very much appreciated your book. And as I was reading it, there was one story that was particularly haunting. And it was about a pastor who ended up begging you for training.   So, can you recall what happened?   Stacey Womack: (28:54 - 34:09) Yeah. You know, a lot of pastors just it's not that they don't care. It's just that they're very uneducated around this.   So even myself, when I first started, I would give people really unhelpful advice before I even began this work because I didn't understand it well. And so, he had encouraged this woman to forgive and go back, which is a typical response. You know, submit more, pray harder.   Those are the kinds of things that a lot of women get from churches. And so, she did. She went home and then he murdered her that night.   And so, this pastor was absolutely heartbroken, as you can imagine, and was calling in and asking, please, please, please train us because we don't want this to ever happen again. You know, and honestly, there are some pastors out there that believe that women should stay in the relationship, even if they are being abused and that God will bless them through their suffering, even if it means death. I don't agree with that.   See, I think that God would never sacrifice a person for the sake of the relationship. But we do as the church sometimes because we're so concerned about the relationship. The relationship is important and God has got a reconciliation and we want reconciliation, too.   But God also tells us the prudent man or woman hides from danger and he cares about us as individuals. And He has called us to live life abundantly, not to just bear it, you know. And so, I think that we need to really look at that.   And being raised as a pastor's daughter that, you know, I was taught that way. So, it was a really it's been really hard, you know, working in the faith communities really struggles with this. And, you know, this idea that, well, a separation might lead to divorce.   But separation is really functional in these relationships because she needs safety so that she can talk, speak the truth from this other person. And she needs time to see whether or not he's willing to actually get the help that he's been promising he'll get. And they need time to see if he can actually work through that.   Or is he just using a program as another controlling behavior to get her to come back into a relationship? If she waits long enough and we usually say six months and he's mad that she's not letting him back home. He goes right back to all the bad behaviors he was doing before.   And he pulls all the money out of the bank and does all these crazy things. And she has her answer, which is heartbreaking. The women are heartbroken over this because they want their relationships to work.   We cannot emphasize that enough to the faith community. These women want their relationships to work and that they did not sign up for this. They did not sign up for these.   They did not say, “Oh, yes, I am agreeing to get married and be abused.” That's how they agreed to. And he made a promise to love and cherish.   And the Bible commands men to love their wives like Christ loves the church and to lay his life down. That means he gives up his way to bless her, that Jesus came to serve, not to be served. So, his role is one of being the lead servant in the relationship.   He should be the first to be serving her. And how do we respond as women? We feel loved and cherished and cared for when that happens.   My husband's so good at this. I have to be careful if I say I'm thirsty, he's up getting me a glass of water. He's so quick to serve.   But this is the kind of behavior that blesses us. And men are surprised that the very thing they want, the respect, honor, all those kinds of things. They get it by doing the very opposite of what they're doing, by giving up their way, by embracing humility.   And humility is hard because it means it's not about being 50-50 or being fair. It's about going 100 percent or more. So, my husband would share because he leads manuscripts with me.   And he says, you know, guys, you know, if Stacy's at 20 percent, then I need to go 180. I need to go in and fill in that gap for her. And there's times I do that for him, too, because unhealthy relationships like that's what we do for women.   But an abusive relationship, that's never what happens. And an abuser has and this is very popular, a narcissistic view of his world. He may not realize that it doesn't mean he has narcissistic personality disorder.   Those guys are very different and they stick out sore thumbs, but they all behave narcissistic, narcissistically, meaning their world revolves around them. So, they want you to manage their emotions. They blame you for when they're unhappy.   And even if you weren't even present, when whatever happened, that he's unhappy that he still blames you for it, which doesn't make sense. It's that crazy making. It's like, “Wow, how am I the cause of this when this happened at work? I don't understand.” You know, so there's all that craziness that goes on.   But, you know, I'm so honored to get to walk alongside men and women in their process of change and their aha moments and their realization that God loves them and that God values them and that they're important and they're regarded. And that because of that, abuse is never OK. It's never OK.   Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 35:21) The few follow ups with that, then to go back to an earlier point, you're making a connection for me where I'm thinking back to a few episodes. It was one was with Leslie Vernick and one was with Dr. Diane Langberg. So, I can't remember who said this.   I can link to both in the show notes, but it's what you're speaking to that as we study the scriptures and we see Christ likeness and how to become more Christ like and what God really says about these topics. They were pointing out he cares about the individual more than the institution. Yeah.   And so, I think there's a lot of re-education for us in the faith community, unfortunately. But then also two follow up questions. One, as you're talking about narcissism or a narcissistic outlook, is there ever from your experience?   I'm familiar with some of my friends who are in relationships like that or acquaintances that I know. Is there ever hope for the husband who has narcissistic tendencies or personality disorder to repent? Have you ever seen that?   Stacey Womack: (35:21 - 37:16) Absolutely. We have men who've done a really great job of working away from being self-focused and selfish. That's really what it is.   They read these journals and we make comments on them and they have to come up with the beliefs that gave them permission to behave this way. So, we had one guy and you could just see a selfishness that I always wrote. The belief is I'm most important.   I've read it every on every single journal. And he finally came to group after a few months because I really realize I'm really selfish. And so, as we help them to see this, it begins to change things and they begin to make different choices and try new things.   As someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, like any personality disorder, those are not medicated. They can't be medicated and it takes a longer time. So, I've had some training on narcissistic personality disorder and I recognize those guys.   Any of those guys generally with personality disorders because they don't see themselves. So, the group laughs at things I say, but they don't understand why they're laughing. And those guys need like seven years of counseling with someone who specializes in narcissistic personality disorder.   If they're willing to do the work that that they can actually make changes. And there's a gentleman who who's travels the country speaking on this. He says that's his favorite group of population he works with.   I can't say the word narcissistic personality disorder men. And he says, you would like this man today. But he had like multiple failed businesses.   He'd been very successful, but they're failing businesses, failing marriage. And he worked with them and you don't work with them the same as just typical counseling. It's not the same because they don't see themselves.   So, we need more people who specialize in that.   Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 38:12) I agree with you there. And it's just helpful to have that reminder of hope. Even this morning in my quiet time, I was reading in the Gospels and it was Jesus saying and everything he says is true.   That with man, it seems impossible, or it is impossible. But with God, we know that all things are possible. So, appreciate the way you answered that.   And then also a follow up would be we heard that awful story of what happened with the physical safety when you're looking at physical abuse. But then, Stacey, would you recommend wives have the same boundaries? Are they taking time away to physically protect themselves if there's any type of abuse?   If there is financial abuse, let's say, are they given the same recommendations as somebody who is in an emotionally abusive relationship?   Stacey Womack: (38:13 - 40:49) Well, the emotional abuse is always there. You don't have any other forms of abuse without emotional abuse. So, our women, we talk about boundary setting and different boundaries they can begin trying.   But oftentimes the only boundary that actually works to be able to say for us to be able to make it, you need to go get help. And while you're getting help, we need to be separated so they're not focusing on one another. So not all of our women separate.   Some of the women try to work through it while he's still in the home. My experience is that it slows the process down, extremely slows the process down because they're still focusing on one another. And he's coming home and he's sharing with us how great the program is.   But then he's going home and he's angry and he's taking it out on her. So, it creates some unsafety for her. And I just want to say this because I think a lot of people don't understand that there's physical safety and then there's emotional safety.   And we downplay the emotional safety. But emotional safety is as important as physical safety. So, I have some pastors who think that if we share things like this, that we're going to be making victims.   That's not true. I don't relate to the books that are out there. You know, oh, yeah, I've experienced that.   It's not going to make victims. You either relate to it or you don't. But this emotional safety might mean needing to separate from that person.   Not because you fear their physical abuse when you haven't been physical. But a lot of our women say he's never been physical, but I'm fearful of him. And so in order for her to get some healing and some help while she waits to see whether or not he gets help and she's really hoping he will.   She needs that space. And so, yes, I think that in a lot of scenarios, separation is a key. And then we have some couples where the where the husband does is not willing to do the work he needs to do, but he's not controlling the finances.   So, they remain married but separated for the rest of their lives. Not very many couples can do that because most abusers are going to control finances. So, but that's why I was saying it's not our place to tell a woman to leave or to stay.   That's not our job. It's our job to walk alongside them when they seek God for what they should be doing and what boundaries they should be setting. And they can try a lot of different things before it gets to that point.   And it just there's no easy answer for this.   Laura Dugger: (40:50 - 41:05) It's very complex. Yes, it's very complex. But even when you say there's a lot of things they could try.   Could you give a few examples or is there a place on your website where they can go to get some ideas and some help for those earlier stages?   Stacey Womack: (41:06 - 43:43) Well, we talk about this in our journey class again, which is free. You can join at any time in our class on boundaries. And so, it depends on the severity of abuse that's going on.   But most women, when there has been physical abuse, will start off with things like and we talk about a boundary has to have a consequence. Otherwise, it's not really you can't. It doesn't work.   But these men are boundary breakers. So, a boundary would be like saying, if you continue to yell at me and call me names, I'm going to leave and go to my friend's house. So, there's the boundary and there's a consequence for breaking.   But then we also realize when we're talking to them that he may decide at some point he's not going to let you leave. So now he's blocking the door. So, then it might be, you know, if you're going to treat me this way, I'm no longer going to cook meals or do your wash.   And it usually works its way down to I'm no longer going to have sex with you. I'm not going to sleep in the same room with you. And once you get to that point, the only other thing you can do is do a physical separation with the heart to actually reunite.   That's what these women want. And some of our couples have been separated for three years. But the husband is like, let her head home.   And he's doing his work and they're interacting again. But he doesn't move back home for three years because he's committed to giving her whatever space and time she needs to heal. Because he recognizes that he's the one that's caused unsafety.   And so, what is three years if you can have a healthy relationship for the rest of your life? And so that's what we were looking for our men to do. It's like even if you're disappointed, if she's saying, I'm not ready for you to move back.   And you can say, I feel disappointed, but you know what? I get it. And whatever you need, I'm willing to do that.   That's accountability. That's humility. And really, they need to have other men who are mentoring them to hold them accountable.   And again, not a lot of people are taught this. And so having the right mentor even for this is really important. Even a right counselor for them to work with their childhood issues.   But those are some ideas for some boundaries. Boundaries always have to have consequences. But even if a woman gets a protection order or restraining order, most of those are violated.   So, we tell the women be prepared to call the police when he violates it by texting you or by sending you a card with money in it or putting flowers on your car. Or coming to the church service that you put in the restraining order that he wasn't supposed to come to. So, you need to be ready to hold him accountable because the abuser doesn't believe you're going to actually follow through.   Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:32) Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors?   That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win. Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.    Well, and what if somebody is listening right now and they're automatically assuming, well, this isn't happening to anyone I know and it's certainly not happening in our church. What would you like to directly say to them?   Stacey Womack: (44:33 - 45:40) I'd like to let them know that statistically one in three women experience domestic violence, stalking, or rape by an intimate partner. And the statistics in the church are no less than they are outside of the church. So, every church has families in their church who look like the perfect couple.   When I started leading a group in my own church, I was so shocked. I kept telling myself, stop being shocked when I have another woman privately come up to me and tell me that they were in an abusive relationship because they just, they were involved, and they were just leading Sunday school. And they were, just look like this beautiful family and you would never have known.   There was no way to know that this was actually going on. So, you know, the reality is that it's happening. We're just not aware of it.   It wasn't on my radar before God called me into this work. I didn't think it was affecting my life. I didn't think of much thought.   But the reality is I feel like it's worse now than ever and not necessarily more physical abuse, but just abuse in general, the misuse of things to gain control.   Laura Dugger: (45:42 - 46:18) Well, and I appreciate the way you helped give a paradigm shift. You offered this on page 36 in your book and you quote saying, “At ARMS, we do not believe God considers domestic violence and abuse an adult issue. Instead, we believe he sees it as child abuse. We are his children.”   So, Stacey, with that in mind, how does this clarify how we can respond appropriately, and in a Christlike manner, when someone does report abuse?   Stacey Womack: (46:20 - 47:51) Well, I think a lot of times when women actually have the courage to tell you what's going on, it's a very courageous thing to do. She's risking a lot by telling you.   So, we really need to listen carefully and believe her. And I'm thinking about how, you know, that I'm trying to think now. How did you word your question so I can answer it correctly?   If you think about that example you gave, if your child was being beaten, harassed and abused in school and came home crying, you wouldn't just sit in your chair and say, go back and pray harder and win them over by your quiet and gentle spirit. We would go down and we would ask the school, what are you doing about this? Who's doing this and what are you doing about it?   And if they didn't do anything, we wouldn't think twice to remove our child from that environment. But in these situations where you're working with two adults, she may not be ready to leave. She's just sharing with you that this is going on.   She actually is hoping you'll go talk to him so that you'll fix him. But that is not a safe thing for you to do. And she may not realize that.   I tell pastors that all the time. You don't, but you're not going to go to him to check out her story or go talk to him like she's asked you to. Instead, you're going to go, what can we do for you right now?   Let's get you some help. And there'll be a time where we can address things with him. But right now is not that safe time.   So, let's get you connected with an organization that can help you give you the resources that you need to begin your journey of healing and discovering what God wants you to do.   Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 48:07) That's good. And also, this is a tricky question, but what are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to those types of abuse that you shared with us?   Stacey Womack: (48:08 - 50:27) Sure. You know, I think God understood that divorce would happen. That's why it got written into the law.   And it says, “Because it was the hardness of hearts.” So, it wasn't God's design. It wasn't the way God wanted it to be, but that there was made allowances for this.   And when people and women are often quoted, God hates divorce. They're not really giving the whole scripture and Malachi in the amplified version. It says, “God hates divorce and marital separation and him who covers his wife, his garment with violence. Therefore, keep a watch on your spirit, that it may be controlled by my spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithfully with your marriage mate.”   So, we actually got some really good articles that go in depth on the original Hebrew, that Malachi verse was written in there. But, you know, I do believe that someone is breaking the marriage covenant to love, cherish, lay his life down for when they bring abuse to the relationship.   Again, God would wish and hope that we would humble our hearts, not be stiff necked and submit to Him and what he's trying to teach us and grow us in. But He does not force us. And so that leaves women in these situations very little choices if their husband is unwilling to get the help that he needs.   So, I am all for divorce. And I know that that marriage is hard. And my husband and I have been married for 44 years and we've gone through our struggles.   And there are times that I thought this isn't going to work. But you know what? We hung in there because we knew that for us, because it wasn't an abusive situation, that we need to stay in there and work on it.   And we did. And we're so glad we did. So, believe me, I'm not promoting divorce.   I just know that there has to be a place and known for it because of sin in the world. And again, it's heartbreaking and it destroys not just individuals, families, but our society is being destroyed by the breakdown of the family. And abuse is one of the most insidious things.   It starts in the home and it's cyclical. So, it's passed on from one generation to the next.   Laura Dugger: (50:29 - 50:38) Well, so, Stacey, how can we become more aware of abuse that is happening all around us? And what can we do that's genuinely helpful?   Stacey Womack: (50:40 - 52:13) Well, I think getting the education, you know, in my book that on the front lines of abuse strategies for the faith community, just a little book. But has a ton of information in it is a good place to start. And I have some do's and don'ts in there.   But, you know, I think that when you might recognize someone's being in an abusive relationship by the way her husband or whatever is speaking to her. But she doesn't see it because most victims would never call themselves a victim of abuse because they don't relate to that at all. That's not how they would define it.   So, I think sometimes just privately sharing with them. No, that behavior was really abusive. And she may not like that.   She might even get upset. But I think just being honest with the fact that this is going on. And I encourage pastors to preach about abuse and really abuse oppression.   And the Bible has a whole lot to say about oppression. There's already sermons out there that they can pull from. I suggest pastors preach on it twice a year.   So, October's domestic violence awareness month. And then maybe run Mother's Day again, not on Mother's Day, but around Mother's Day. Talk about it again, not as a caveat to relationships where it's just mentioned in a sermon, but an actual entire sermon on this issue.   And I can promise you that the church gets the education they need. They don't have to be experts, but they need to know what resources are out there for them and they make it safe. Both men and women will come forward and ask for help.   So, we need just to be a listening ear and care and ask how we can help.   Laura Dugger: (52:14 - 52:29) I think that's a good practical encouragement that you've shared. And I want to add all of these links in our show notes. So, is there anywhere else that we can go to after this conversation to continue learning from you?   Sure.   Stacey Womack: (52:30 - 53:32) We have our website that has a ton of information on it, abuserecovery.org. So, there's just so much on there. We have blogs and we have all kinds of information that the faith community can download for free.   Whether you're just in the community or you're a church leader, there's all kinds of things you can download. We have a pastor's packet. There's just we'll give you other books to read that you can do more education around this again.   I know as my father being a pastor, that pastors are busy enough. We're not asking pastors to do more than what they're doing. We're just asking them to be educated and know where they can send their people that's safe, where they're going to get sound and supportive help.   And to just be open to looking at things from a little bit different perspective. But our website just has so much on it that they can get for free. And again, our women's intervention groups, our recovery groups are free.   Laura Dugger: (53:33 - 53:49) Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, Stacey is my final question for you today.   What is your savvy sauce?   Stacey Womack: (53:50 - 54:39) What is my savvy sauce? You know, when I think about how God called me into this ministry in the end, no matter what we do, I think it's about obedience to God. And so, this was not on my radar.   I would never have chosen it. And so, for me, it's about being obedient to what God has called me to do, even when it's hard and even when it's unpopular. And walking in that so that when I stand before God, I can say I did what you asked me to, to the best of my ability, even with all my flaws.   So that's really, I think, my heart is to be that way. Be a leader like Moses, who God says he was the most humble man who ever lived. I'd love to be like that with the heart of David and the boldness of Paul and on and on and on.   Laura Dugger: (54:39 - 59:13) So, yeah, I love that. Well, I told you before we pressed record that I have experienced so much fruit of the spirit from you already with your gentleness. And this is not the first time we tried recording.   We prayed together that God would do immeasurably more than all we could ever ask or imagine through this conversation, because we had so many technical difficulties and even had to reschedule the date for this. But Stacey, I'm so grateful you persevered because you are well-spoken and you tackle this extremely difficult topic with wisdom and grace. And so, I'm very grateful I got to learn from you today.   And I believe God's going to continue working through you, even for the saving of many lives. So, thank you for your work and thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.    One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

On today's program we have internationally recognized psychologies and trauma scholar Diane Langberg. She has come face to face with the trauma of sexual abuse, trafficking, domestic violence, and rape – and its cover up. And she has encountered all of them within the Christian community and the church. In her book When the Church Harms God's People, Langberg diagnoses how Christian communities often choose to protect their institutions rather than the victims of harm, and she discusses what we can do about it. Diane Langberg has a Ph.D from Temple University, and she has chaired the advisory board of the American Association of Christian Counselors. She has written a number of books, books which have been translated into eleven languages. To receive your own copy of her book, go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page. If you make a gift of any size to MinistryWatch during April 2025, we'll send  you this book as our thank you gift. The producer for today's program is Jeff McIntosh. I'm your host Warren Smith. Until next time, may God bless you.

Speaking from decades of experience counseling trauma survivors, Dr. Diane Langberg challenges the church to confront hidden abuses within its own walls.

Dr. Diane Langberg joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast to discuss her insights on abuse within the church and her latest book, "When the Church Harms God's People."   Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com In this episode, we: Explore the evolution of understanding abuse and trauma over the past five decades with Dr. Langberg. Discuss the misconceptions surrounding abuse and domestic violence within Christian communities. Examine the bravery required for victims to speak up and how church leaders should respond to disclosures of abuse. Address the importance of protecting individuals over preserving institutions or marriages. Consider what true repentance looks like for perpetrators and how mercy and love can be extended to them responsibly. Look at the challenges faced by survivors and the need for vigilance and wisdom in church settings. Highlight the essential role of education and training for leaders in recognizing and responding to abuse situations.   Featured Guest Dr. Diane Langberg   Resources mentioned When The Church Harms God's People https://amzn.to/4lbpqsn   Tell Your Friends! If you loved this episode, leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and share it with a friend. Tag us if you share it on social media.   Follow Untangled Faith wherever you listen to podcasts Follow on Apple podcasts Subscribe on YouTube Follow on Spotify Follow on Podcast Addict   Want to share your thoughts with us or talk about partnering with the show? Email: amy@untangledfaithpodcast.com Follow me on Instagram Follow me on Threads Follow me on BlueSky

When the Church Harms Instead of Heals: A Conversation with Dr. Diane Langberg Does the church always protect the vulnerable? Unfortunately, the answer is no. Too often, church leaders and institutions protect their own reputation, power, and influence instead of the wounded and abused. This episode is a crucial conversation with world-renowned trauma expert Dr. Diane Langberg, who has spent over five decades counseling survivors of abuse and working to bring truth and light into the darkest places within the church. In this episode, Leslie Vernick and Dr. Langberg discuss how churches can—and must—do better. They expose the dangerous ways churches enable abuse, misuse power, and silence victims in the name of God. If you've ever felt unheard, dismissed, or spiritually manipulated by those in leadership, this conversation will offer both validation and hope. Key Takeaways: 1. Why Churches Struggle to See and Address Abuse The church has been slow to acknowledge abuse within its walls. Too often, the institution is prioritized over the people. Jesus called leaders to "feed my sheep," yet many churches protect the system instead. Abuse survivors need churches that reflect Christ's heart, not just uphold doctrine. 2. The Harmful Messages Women Hear About Abuse and Marriage Many women are told that preserving marriage at all costs is God's will, even at the expense of their physical, emotional, and spiritual well-being. But God hates sin more than divorce. Jesus himself walked away from people who refused truth, and women are not called to stay in destructive relationships to honor God. 3. The Self-Deception of Abusive Church Leaders Abusive pastors and leaders often twist Scripture to justify their actions. They protect their reputations and minimize their sins, deceiving not only others but themselves. True repentance requires exposure and accountability, not secrecy and cover-ups. 4. How to Create Safer Churches for Abuse Survivors Churches must shift their focus from building large institutions to becoming places that reflect Christ's love and justice. This means listening to survivors, seeking expert training, and prioritizing character over charisma in leadership. 5. God's Heart for the Wounded For those who have been harmed by their church, Dr. Langberg offers a powerful reminder: God sees, weeps, and hates the evil done in His name. He does not ask you to stay in an abusive situation. He is for you, not against you. Resources and Next Steps: Dr. Diane Langberg's book: When the Church Harms God's People Dr. Diane Langberg's website: www.dianelangberg.com Leslie Vernick's resources for abuse survivors: www.leslievernick.com Need support? Join our private community for women seeking healing and guidance.  Final Encouragement If you've been hurt by the church, know this: God is not like the leaders who failed you. He sees you, loves you, and wants you to walk in freedom. Your voice matters, and healing is possible. Thank you for listening to Relationship Truth Unfiltered. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. 

In this episode of the Preacher Boys podcast, Eric Skwarczynski sits down with Dr. Diane Langberg, a psychologist with over 50 years of experience, to discuss her new book, "When the Church Harms God's People." Dr. Langberg shares her insights on trauma, abuse within faith communities, and the importance of prioritizing individual well-being over institutional success. Drawing from her extensive experience, she offers practical advice for pastors, ministry leaders, and individuals seeking to create safer and healthier church environments.✖️✖️✖️Support the Show: Patreon.com/PreacherBoys✖️✖️✖️If you or someone you know has experienced abuse, visit courage365.org/need-help✖️✖️✖️CONNECT WITH THE SHOW:preacherboyspodcast.comhttps://www.youtube.com/@PreacherBoyshttps://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdoc/https://twitter.com/preacherboysdochttps://www.instagram.com/preacherboyspodhttps://www.tiktok.com/@preacherboyspodTo connect with a community that shares the Preacher Boys Podcast's mission to expose abuse in the IFB, join the OFFICIAL Preacher Boys Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/✖️✖️✖️The content presented in this video is for informational and educational purposes only. All individuals and entities discussed are presumed innocent until proven guilty through due legal process. The views and opinions expressed are those of the speakers.This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/PreacherBoys and get on your way to being your best self.Our Sponsors:* Use promo code preacherboys at the link below to get an exclusive 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/preacherboysSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/preacher-boys-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Attorney and Institutional Response Specialist Melissa J. Hogan joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast for a candid discussion about how communities and leaders should respond when there is a breakdown of trust in a marriage, especially when issues of abuse or infidelity are involved. What happens when we diagnose an abuse issue as a marriage issue?   Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com   In this episode we talk about What communities, leaders, and friends should consider when addressing trust breakdowns in marriages. Why the first instinct to restore the marriage might be harmful. Common myths around quick-fixes such as short-term therapies and intensives. Practical steps and resources for leaders.   Featured Guest Melissa J. Hogan https://melissajhogan.substack.com   Resources mentioned GRACE https://www.netgrace.org Dr. Diane Langberg https://www.dianelangeberg.com Caring Well Conference 2019 ERLC National Conference - Caring Well on Vimeo Gretchen Baskerville About Me | Life-Saving Divorce Leslie Vernick Home - Leslie Vernick Natalie Hoffman Flying Free Support for Women in Abusive Relationships   Tell Your Friends! If you loved this episode, leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and share it with a friend. Tag us if you share it on social media.   Follow Untangled Faith wherever you listen to podcasts Follow on Apple podcasts Subscribe on YouTube Follow on Spotify Follow on Podcast Addict   Want to share your thoughts with us or talk about partnering with the show? Email: amy@untangledfaithpodcast.com Follow me on Instagram Follow me on Threads Follow me on BlueSky

  By Mary Lindow    I'm going to make a few statements about this podcast before I begin. I hope I am not required by Lord to make many podcasts like this one, but I will obey him if he does ask me to do so!  To even things out a little bit, my next few podcasts are going to be sharing about some magnificent and overwhelming experiences that I have had in meeting First Native Chiefs throughout the United States and Canada. All of these events were orchestrated by the Lord in order for us to meet. The things that I learned from these godly individuals who love Jesus, but understand the strongholds in our cities, our nations and upon our lands, has been absolutely Life-changing. I hope to share at least two podcasts telling you these stories and experiences that glorify Jesus, and show the power of his supernatural ability to get us to the places we need to go without ever having to push our way in or manipulate anything.   Now let's begin today's crucial podcast. We are in a time when many people are seeing much evil take place, not only in our nation, not only in large and small corporations, but in church organizations and organizations that claim to bear the name of Christ on their letterheads.   One of the greatest deceptions taking place is that people are being told to NOT “discuss”/not to tell the truth about the abuses that are taking place in some of these organizations. With the multitude of public exposures that is taking place right now all over social media regarding unconscionable and difficult happenings, I have been agonizingly yet strongly prompted by the Holy Spirit, to share my thoughts and the experiences that I have had in walking other people out of dark places, because of the harm done to them in some of these institutions.   I do this with a heavy heart, and yet I must take courage and be obedient in order to be an “Advocate of Hope” for those who feel that they cannot speak out for fear of being threatened or ridiculed, letting them know that there are others who will champion and stand with  them by calling “wolfish abuse” what it is, instead of sweeping it under any kind of Church Carpet, Corporate Carpet, or Institutional Carpet.   I am by far, not the perfect believer by any means! I've had some wonderful mentors and training from others in ministry as well as in the counseling arena who have been strong and good people of discernment. When something inside of you is alerted or feels really uncomfortable, or even just the thought of, “there's something not right about that” pops in, that's a built-in radar God gives us. Now, if someone's judging someone because they don't like that they're loud, or seem to be "too meek, obese, skinny, or speak a truth that they aren't comfortable with or don't have wisdom about", then that's where all the speculating and suspicion move in.   Being set free from critical behavior and suspicion takes a willingness to admit that we don't trust anybody, or, that we think we have an exclusive lead on how God speaks all the time.   I certainly need the accountability friends in my life who speak truth to me firmly and regularly!   The soul loves to put itself in its own place of authority and override discernment, humility,and often the need to prove that our opinion matters. Honestly, keeping a heart pure and clean before the Lord every day, (and that's truly not just an easy thing), but pursuing him with the right heart, keeps that place where we hear from him very sharpened and aware! Studying his word, digging into what it really means, provides a depth and place of resource to go to, to check whether our heart is in accordance with his word or if we're making up our own ideas about things. It's so easy to let other people think or speak for us, or their opinions, being strong, driving a message to us that says we should probably do what they say. This is where we get into trouble!   We are supposed to question or “test” things and not just take everything hook, line, and sinker!   In 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 it tells us, “Do not quench the Spirit.  Do not despise prophecies, BUT, test everything; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.”   Friends! Evil can be deceptive and cunning! The word of God has an omnipotent power that cuts through all of the fog of self-deception and definitely pontificating! Many people quote the scripture and use it to their benefit when they want to self promote or appear to be somewhat spiritual. This is where discernment has to come in!!!   If something feels wrong, if something is spiritually off key, is not in alignment with what Jesus said or what the scriptures speak, then discernment has to come in to play.   The road gets narrower as you walk your Christian journey with Jesus, and you absolutely will be called many names because of the stance of wanting to be more like him, and more detached from the volumes of worldly knowledge. Wisdom isn't easily gained!  But, it's so worth it when you get a little nugget that lasts for eternity.   Suspicion vs. Discernment. I've seen this destroy and have been painfully more than a few times, a recipient of ugly and ruthless “suspicious” judgments. Suspicion destroys relationships. It destroys lives. It listens to hearsay rather than God's inward warnings. Suspicion can feed a self satisfaction (which is actually pride) when our choices to put others in a lesser and suspicious light, even sabotaging them, justifies our own agendas.   When we are constantly suspicious of the motives of others, we drive people away that could be a great blessings to us. (They may even walk with a bit of a limp due to the battles and hard fought victories they've fought throughout their lives.) Check your life today. Are you discerning, or merely suspicious? The problem is, sometimes we label suspicion with the pious name of “discernment” and think we're being super spiritual. It's so important to learn the difference between discernment and suspicion!     The difference is quite simple. Discernment comes from God and will recognize evil for what it is. Suspicion come from or soul and will imagine evil when there is none. If you see genuine compassion, kindness, mercy, accountability, humility and a forgiving nature in someone, you are seeing a surrendered soul.     Not many want to talk about how hard spiritual growth and dying to ourselves, our opinions our interpretations is. It's not a one time thing, it's every day. It's remaining quiet when we want to speak. It's trusting God's timing when we would, rather control. It's doing it God's way when it doesn't make sense to us. It's quietly walking away from what might “appear to be a lucrative or more publicly promoting opportunity” when you know there are political or spiritually abusive environments involved.   We don't get a lot of accolades or crowns here on earth for that kind of brave but necessary decision. But in heaven, when we do behold the face of the one who literally bled out for us, and he says, “Well done, so well done my good and faithful servant! Enter into my rest!” Oh my goodness, how absolutely all of the hardship and persecution will melt away in that moment, and the joy that is unspeakable and has yet to be fully understood, will be complete in our lives.   It is necessary in life to learn from those who have more wisdom and experience, because they can help us see things that we don't notice.   Even though modern culture tells us that we should “live our own truth and do whatever we think is best”, it's this type of thinking that leads us into trouble. This is why Scripture tells us not to be wise in our own eyes.   True wisdom comes from fearing God. This means we should have a high regard for God's Word and His instructions to us. He knows all things, including, what is best for us. We can also gain wisdom from other people. When we can learn from the mistakes and experiences of others, we're better equipped to not make the same mistakes. However, if you think you're the only one who knows best, you are bound to repeat the same errors.   There's a huge amount of exposure taking place in pulpits, Ministry organizations, Christian Media Corporations, Governments, Christian Universities and Bible Schools... ...Right now.   Of course, we all know the Lord is doing a lot of the exposing and dealing with painful and shocking events that have or, are currently occurring, or are being investigated.   Why is he doing this? Because he will not allow these kinds of charades, criminal acts or hiding of sexual misconductsto NOT be caught. Sadly many individuals who are sitting in church pulpits or are serving in ministry environments such as youth ministries, children's church, Young adult groups and more, are often made uncomfortable by things they see taking place with some of the staff members. The big question now is do you dare say anything?   If you see a male individual in a place of authority as a teacher, a pastor, any kind of youth worker anywhere, being over familiar with females, and by that I mean, resting their hand on their back too often with letting it linger, standing too closely to them in their personal space, spending time alone with them in their office etc. with doors shut and no visible way to see anything taking place. These are red flags! A little bit of investigating and watching and taking notes is appropriate. Always document things that you see that make you feel there is something wrong going on and always date it. But be honest, not suspicious and don't exaggerate or embellish. If necessary, take pictures. These are now used as evidence in court cases.   Another example! If you would happen to know that there was a youth minister who sexually approached or interfered with a child or a young adult, and it was hidden and “dealt with” in an internal investigation among elders or leaders of a church or youth organization, club or scouting group, but was never reported, and this individual was then packed up and sent off to another state to minister or workelsewhere, they have basically turned this person into a repeat offender. These things must be reported to the police!   Here's the hard thing. We sure hope that we could go to people like elders or other leaders in the church if we see something taking place and know that deception is involvedand that others are covering it up. If there has ever been a question that you have seen or a child has reported to you, that a young adult has reported to you or a teenager has reported to you that something inappropriate, whether it was conversation, whether it was physical touch, whether it was a threat that took place, you must go to the police.   Taking it to the pastor or taking it to the leadership "feels" like a good idea. But when there's a wolf in the crowd, when there are wolves in leadership positions, we don't take time to try to defend ourselves against wolves or predators.    If you know, for a fact that these things have taken place, you must document and you must protect the children. You must protect the young developing adults. And, you must protect the future generations that would be affected if this perpetrator is permitted to be allowed to continue to remain in any organization, and not have appropriate legal consequences take place.   There are many who are holding positions in churches that are hiding inappropriate events of their own, within their own staff, or within their own organization, who value their building, their notoriety and their income, more than they value protecting the sheep or telling the truth.   Some people do not believe this is true! They think that surely the Holy Spirit would be exposing these things if they were really happening! Well, my friends, the Holy Spirit uses practical human beings who are aware and have cultivated discernment and see that there is something very wrong and very out of order going on, and these human beings must be bold, courageous, and speak out like the prophet Nathan spoke to King David when he was having a long-term affair with Bathsheba and murdered his own military leader in order to cover his own manipulative and adulterous behavior. There were terrible, painful consequences that took place because of what David did. Yet God in his mercy when David repented, restored David's relationship back to himself. But if forever changed David, and there were things that he was no longer permitted to partake in because of his wickedness. But God did not shun him. God corrected him.   Here are a few basic recommendations I'd like to share as a Pastoral counselor (and as a minister myself), with those who are in some form of ministry. It's not wise for men to counsel Women alone, but if necessary they must have a glass window where another safe office or staff member can see into the room. I have seen too many people get enmeshed emotionally with intimate counseling and I have historical documents that sadly indicate where several ministers who fantasized or planned or, actually have run off with people they were counseling for marriage difficulties! They have devastated marriages, families and churches because they crossed a line and blew clear past healthy boundaries, and safety protocols for counseling.   I also strongly recommend that men are not often alone in an office setting or ministry facility with women, especially if single, because they're vulnerable women, because the table can turn two ways. The woman can become needy or manipulative and play on the affections or the emotions of a tender, kind hearted man, and then turn around and accuse them of some kind of inappropriate actions. Men in buildings alone with women who are married and it's late at night with a woman who is beautiful and lovely, or even sweet and precious, can create a sense of desire in a man whois tired of the grind of life, maybe hard work, might be having some strain at home, and in a few moments of weakness, begins to pursue an emotional affair, talking too openly, sharing too openly, and it can quickly lead to other kinds of affection, emotional bonding and inappropriate touching.   I know some of this sounds pretty heavy, and we as believers just don't want to have to hear about the horrible, dark things that could possibly take place! We so want to believe the best in everyone and we want to be merciful and forgiving! But, with the recent rash and exposure of well-known names, seemingly appearing holy and virtuous, many well protected individuals are now being exposed in multiple areas and in multiple environments, for hiding harm done to children, harm done to staff, and then using spiritual gifts or “spiritual pedigrees” to justify that they were just “tired or weak in the moment” and that they thought they'd handle it in house privately!   Well, to speak bluntly and boldly, this fakery and denial is just all hogwash when the gaslighting and lying starts!     We have to call it what it is! It's called spiritual abuse (SA) or clergy sexual abuse. (CSA) .   Returning to my original introduction regarding the need for discernment versus suspicion, we have to be very wise and make sure that our hearts are right as we begin to walk out these very difficult times of exposure as well as needing to be vocal.   There are victims among us who have not said anything for years about the things that took place in back rooms or offices or church buildings, camps or cars. For some reason, people run to suspicion and say, “Why are you now just beginning to talk about this? Why did you wait so long? What do you want out of this?”     In legal terms when someone speaks out immediately about sexual abuse or harm done,the term is called “Outcry”. They “cry out”, they “tell”.   When someone takes awhile to be able to process abuse, especially children (male, and female!) or young vulnerable teenagers or women who have been abused in the past, and have been threatened to remain silent or paid off to be quiet, and are easily preyed upon by those who are able to spot vulnerability, it takes them longer, and healthy unpacking and dialog frees them to tell. This must be tenderly and wisely handled with a skilled CHRISTIAN trauma counselor who works in these areas of sexual, church or cult abuse, or child abuse.   The term for this, when someone takes so long or doesn't remember everything that happened (because they've been threatened and they have shut it out), this is called “Delayed Outcry.”   With the proper counseling and the proper police reporting involved, then there becomes an investigation or a forensic investigation that listens to and  reviews documents, the stories or events, does the investigating, looks at any kind of proof which could be documents, notes, texts, emails, pictures, clothing, the location or rooms these things happened in. Then, they begin to question and cross examine those who are being accused.   Yes! There have been people who have lied and set others up for something they never did. Or, they lured people into getting them to be involved in nefarious behaviors, use of drugs, alcohol, inappropriate touching, looking at unsafe objects, videos or pictures, and then turn around and use it to project onto that individual in order to hide their own very Addictive sicknesses.   Here's the Honest Deal. When there are wolves operating the pulpits, we don't say, “well they were once a really nice sheep so we have to be nice to them!” A wolf is a wolf! A wolf puts on a mask like a sheep and can appear saintly and beautiful and tell sad, well oiled stories about themselves to make themselves look like they're repentant over something “small” that they may struggle over and then everyone feels like, “what a lovely, humble soul!” They can con, they can cry, they can preach, they can look compassionate. They can talk a good line, they can be very convincing. But, if they have been predators, touching children, often touching women, touching men, plagiarizing, mishandling funds for their own purposes and lavish living... …These are wolves.   We have to call them for what they are. They thrive on building their egos and are very convincing in order build their own empires, claiming that it was the Lord giving them all the blessings.     2 Corinthians 11:13-14 addresses this so strongly! “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light!”   Friends, Discernment is at an all-time low and the Lord is bringing it to the forefront.   The Spirit of God is saying to you and saying to me, “cultivate develop and train yourself to be discerning and to test everything!” This means school boards, politicians, those in the pulpit, those in other ministries and any other position of authority. Some of the slickest and most well promoted people are often those of who have charming, manipulative narcissistic traits and harm many in their wake.   The posture of power, inflated titles, fake tears, swiftly changing of trends and movements that claim it's “THE thing” God is doing, are lures to draw crowds, train people to trust the speakers to hear from God for them ( but not fully train the audience to discern and judge.)   Oh the wretched and unbelievably twisted things I have heard behind the doors of Pastoral counseling! Oh the ugly and extremely uncomfortable things I've witnessed in Green rooms before live “Christian” broadcasts. Oh the unbelievably huge complex and disgusting competition that goes on among ministries and Christian organizations, when monetary policies are used as a way to enrich those at the top.   If There's Anything I'd Scream From the Rooftops Today It Would Be, “Cultivate and Learn Discernment!”   Be sober! Be wise! Be accountable!”   Oh Lord Jesus! Mature your people. Teach them to hear your voice.    I would like to share a statement from a wonderful man of God who is a seasoned Husband, Father, Pastor, Speaker, and Author. His name is Tim Challies. He shares these very potent and deep words.   “With discernment comes division.   A person who seeks to be discerning must be willing to suffer the effects of this division. It will divide not only the believer from the unbeliever, but it may even divide a discerning believer from one who is undiscerning. It will separate the mature from the immature and the naïve from the prudent.”   SO well said!   In my closing out of this podcast today, I would like to share a few potent words from Dr. Diane Langberg who has worked in multicultural and many international settings were abuse and tragedy of every kind, (those imagined and those that you cannot imagine that have taken place). She works as a specialist among those who have been traumatized by Church abuse in its many forms. She is a wise Senior woman who I greatly admire and have learned much from. As I share her statements in closing, allow them to speak to the deeper part of you where the Lord is developing discernment and greater awareness.   Diane says, “Many of us have confused the church system with Jesus Christ; they are not the same. There are wolves among the sheep, tares among the wheat. Jesus called humans that looked good on the outside, white-washed tombs full of stink. My work has taught me that many poor sheep have followed a blind guide, a gifted wolf, and landed in a pit. No so-called Christian system is truly God's work unless it “fleshes out” his character. Toleration of sin, pretense, and crookedness do not reveal the character of God, even if they bear his name. Arrogance is never godly. Covering up sin is never godly. Abuse of power is never godly. Shepherds who feed on sheep are abusive. Leadership that preserves and protects the system, rather than the people, turns the house of God into a safe place for predators. Those who come to feed on God himself then find themselves being the main course instead.   We have failed to protect leaders from their own bondage to self-deception and sin. Exposure brings hope, for it brings the cancer to the light. To hide sin by cover-up or silent complicity is spiritual abuse. It is a failure to love the perpetrator. Demise of a system—even a spiritual system—is not the worst that can happen! We must acknowledge and tell the truth about these things. Great damage is being done to God's sheep, in his name. He weeps over such leaders and the sheep they harm. Be watchful. Recognize coercive and manipulative behavior. Call it by its right name when someone in power uses spiritual words and ideas to silence, control, and intimidate. Be discerning about those who hold power—including yourself. Do not be deceived.  May we, with Daniel, call out to God: “O Lord, hear! O Lord forgive. O Lord listen and act. For your own sake do not delay, because your church and your people are called by your name.”(Dan. 9:19). Source:  https://erlc.com/resource/when-the-sheep-are-preyed-upon/   Finally, I would like to say these words. Trauma can leave people feeling shattered and alone. But through our faith, we discover that God's love is unwavering and His healing touch can mend even the deepest wounds.   Let's remember that we are not defined by our pain, But by the Grace that lifts us up, and leads us toward restoration.   If you find yourself carrying the weight of trauma, know that you are not alone on this journey. For those of you who may be trembling with fear or who have experienced any kind of abuse. For those of you, how are trembling and fear, because you know you have done something and have hidden it from others or have protected others who you know have done harmful, evil things, the word of God says to confess your faults to one another to confess your sins so that you may be clean, freed, and that you may be forgiven. To those of you who have been abused, don't be afraid to find a safe, godly, skilled trauma counselor who will be able to help you be freed from the prisons of shame, control, and intimidation within, so that you can walk in the light of grace and freedom and know that your Father in heaven has rescued you from those that harm. To help you in your journey, I have included a link where you can quickly locate or begin to research a Christian counselor who is skilled and able to help you with whatever specific area that you may need to have help with. https://tinyurl.com/5h4zfc9u   Let's pray together before we end this time together. Heavenly Father, May everyone who knows your mercy keep putting their trust in you, for they can count on you for help no matter what. O Lord, you will never, no, never, neglect those who come to you." -Psalms 9:10 Heavenly Father, in the face of fear and uncertainty, I call upon your strength to fill those who are listening to, or who are reading this message, fill them with courage. When the wounds of traumatic experiences seem too deep to overcome, remind them that you are the ever-present help in times of trouble. Grant them the bravery to face their fears head-on, knowing that you go in front of them, leading them into a future, free from the shackles of the past. Thank you for being our fortress and our deliverer. With you by their side, They will not be afraid. Amen.   Duplication and sharing of this writing is welcomed, as long as the complete message, Website, podcast link and information for Mary Lindow is included. Thank You! "2025" "THE MESSENGER"  -  Mary Lindow www.marylindow.com www.marylindow.podbean.com   If you would be so kind to assist Mary by helping her to meet other administrative needs such as website, video messages and podcast costs, or desire to bless her service in ministry with Spirit-led offerings or regular support:   Please JOYFULLY send your gift in the form of:  ► Personal Checks ► Business Checks ► Money Orders ► Cashiers Checks To:  His Beloved Ministries Inc.  PO Box 1253 Denver, Colorado 80614 USA    Or feel free to use or send a tax-deductible gift with   Pay Pal   paypal.me/mlindow  Under the name of - Mary Lindow - His Beloved Ministries  ALL gifts are tax-deductible under His Beloved Ministries 5013c non-profit status. We are financially accountable and have been in full compliance since 1985 THANK YOU!   To Learn More About Steve and Mary  Click this Picture!

In this episode of Craft & Character, Steve Carter interviews Diane Langberg about how a pastor must pursue truth, care for the wounded, point people to Jesus above themselves, and to resist abuse at all costs. For 50 plus years, Langberg has been a leader in the unfortunate field of church abuse and trauma. An incredibly wise guide who deeply loves the church so much that she continues to call out the best for what it can be in our world today. BIO Diane Langberg is globally recognized for her 50 years of clinical work with trauma victims. She has trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and to the abuse of power. For 29 years, she directed her own practice in Jenkintown PA, Diane Langberg PhD, and Associates. Now in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes seventeen therapists with multiple specialties. Langberg's newest book is When the Church Harms God's People: Becoming Faith Communities that Resist Abuse, Pursue Truth and Care for the Wounded.  EPISODE LINKS: Social Media: @dianelangberg Website: www.dianelangberg.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Content warning: This episode discusses sexual, spiritual, and domestic abuse. Should discussions of the church harming people be kept in-house so the world doesn't hear about it? No, says Diane Langberg, and there's a simple reason why: “That would be quite unlike Jesus Christ.” Listen in as Langberg, an international speaker, psychologist, and author on trauma care, joins Moore to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God's People. Their conversation covers abuse in institutions and considers why it is different when those institutions are churches. They talk about the importance of churches and homes as havens from harm and how it affects people when they become places of hurt.  Moore and Langberg consider power dynamics, the importance of language that properly names the abuses people have suffered, and a Christian view of women. They provide reason for hope and opportunities for church leaders to love and care for the hurting. Resources mentioned in this episode or recommended by the guest include: Diane Langberg When the Church Harms God's People: Becoming Faith Communities That Resist Abuse, Pursue Truth, and Care for the Wounded by Diane Langberg Abuse of Faith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this foundational episode, we kick off our series, Surviving and Thriving After Trauma, by exploring what trauma truly is—and isn't. As the term “trauma” becomes more prevalent in everyday culture, it's essential to clarify its meaning, dispel myths, and offer tools for understanding and growth. Throughout this series, we want to bring clarity, validation, and encouragement to those navigating the complex impacts of trauma. While it's true that trauma means different things to different people, John, Lynn and Austin will answer the following questions: What is trauma? What is the impact of trauma? What are some myths about trauma? What does the Bible say about trauma? Some of the impacts of trauma include: Emotional dysregulation  Self-protective walls to prevent future pain Internal fragmentation (compartmentalizing emotions) Defense mechanisms in relationships (rationalizing, blame-shifting, projecting) Coping mechanisms (numbing behaviors or perfectionism) Disconnection from the body  This episode will also dispel some common myths about trauma such as: Myth #1: Talking about trauma is a sign of weakness. Myth #2: We are fragile and can't recover from hardship. Myth #3: Trauma affects everyone the same way. Myth #4: There's an easy way to heal from trauma. The truth is that the Bible has a lot of say about trauma, using different words: suffering, hardship, distresses, trials, sorrow and brokenness. Using biblical realities along with psychological insight, this episode will provide essential understanding for those seeking healing from trauma.  Tune in to our next episode: “How do I Heal From Trauma?” and share this episode with someone who might benefit from a deeper understanding of trauma. Resources: Suffering and the Heart of God by Diane Langberg. Healing What's Within by Chuck DeGroat. Try Softer by Aundi Kolber If you enjoy listening to With You in the Weeds we'd love to hear from you! You can email us at withyouintheweeds@thecrossingchurch.com or leave us a review. For more great content from the team you can subscribe to our newsletter at withyouintheweeds.com and follow us on Instagram @withyouintheweeds. 

It's a privilege to be in conversation with Diane Langberg today, a psychologist who has spent over 50 years working with victims of abuse, particularly within the church. Langberg has seen firsthand the devastating impact when the very institutions meant to protect and nurture God's people end up harming them instead. Diane believes that the solution lies not in better policies or procedures, but in a deeper reorientation towards Christ-likeness - a radical commitment to love, truth, and obedience that must permeate every corner of the church. She argues that too often, we've made the institution, the building, the reputation the priority, rather than faithfully following our true head, Jesus. She pulls no punches, recounting harrowing stories of abuse covered up in the name of protecting the church's image. But she also offers a vision of hope - that by facing these painful truths head-on, by listening to the 'least of these,' the church can be transformed to truly reflect the heart of the Savior it claims to follow. This is a challenging, sobering, and ultimately hopeful conversation that I believe every Christian leader needs to engage with. Langberg's wisdom and experience offer a clarion call for the church to get back to its biblical foundations - not as an institution to defend, but as the living, breathing body of Christ. Diane Langberg (PhD, Temple University) is an internationally recognized psychologist with more than 50 years of experience. She chaired the advisory board of the American Association of Christian Counselors until 2021 and cofounded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute, which trains therapists to assist trauma victims across the world. She is the founder of Langberg, Monroe & Associates, which provides counseling services in Jenkintown, Pennsylvania, and consults with Christian organizations around the world. Langberg is the author of seven books, including Redeeming Power. Her books have been translated into 11 languages.Diane's Book:When the Church Harm's God's PeopleJoin Our Patreon for Early Access and More: PatreonConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link belowSupport the show

As pastors and ministry leaders, how can we ensure that we do not slip into unhealthy patterns that cause harm to the people we serve? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Dr. Diane Langberg. Diane is an internationally recognized psychologist with over 50 years of experience. She co-founded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute and served as the Chair of the Advisory Board of the American Association of Christian Counselors. She's written a number of books, including her latest, entitled When The Church Harms God's People. Together, Diane and Jason look at some of the warning signs of unhealthy ministry leadership. Diane also shares three distinct calls that every shepherd needs to embrace in order to honor God and serve their people well.Dig deeper into this conversation: Find the free Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, all resource links, and more, at http://PastorServe.org/networkSome key takeaways from this conversation:Diane Langberg on the importance of self-awareness and growth: "We often deceive ourselves in ways that protect us from looking at things that aren't good about us because we don't want them to be true."Diane Langberg on the significance of pastors having a well-rounded understanding of their role and personal development: "Pastors need to know good theology…. but they also need to know who they are, where they're weak, how they can get help."Diane Langberg on the importance of our heart, intentions, and faithfulness over numbers or external markers of success: "God's not going to ask us, when we face him, how big our church was."----------------Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide. Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how each episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders. Love well, live well, & lead well Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesession Follow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | FacebookConnect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram...

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What's worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up. But there is a better way. On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God's People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem. Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil. In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she's learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people? She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others. This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we'll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share. Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God's narrow path for many decades. Guests Dr. Diane Langberg Dr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG   JULIE ROYS  00:04 Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way.   JULIE ROYS  00:21 Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   JULIE ROYS  01:12 Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me.   DIANE LANGBERG 02:58 Thank you. It’s an honor to be here.   JULIE ROYS  03:00 I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix.   DIANE LANGBERG 03:39 I’m thrilled to be done too.   JULIE ROYS  03:43 I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is?   DIANE LANGBERG 04:15 So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems,   JULIE ROYS  04:34 So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and  say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:25 Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed.   JULIE ROYS  05:45 So what would you say fruit is?   DIANE LANGBERG 05:47 It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd.   JULIE ROYS  06:10 And yet, so often it is true  when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right?   DIANE LANGBERG 06:29 Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ.   JULIE ROYS  06:35 One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question?   DIANE LANGBERG 07:14 Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue.   JULIE ROYS  08:28 Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there are some mega churches that do-good work, and there’s people who have been saved through these mega churches, who have been discipled through them. But I think for the pastor, I have seen that it seems like all the pressures in a mega church are in the wrong direction. I’m curious what you would say that you’ve seen with our churches today, and whether they help spiritual formation for these leaders, or whether they seem to work in the opposite direction.   DIANE LANGBERG 09:09 The pressure is terrible, the expectations are extravagant, and everything has God’s name on it. So if you aren’t meeting the pressure, and you aren’t bringing in lots of people, and people aren’t talking about how wonderful you are, you’re not doing a good job. If those are the criteria, then Jesus didn’t do a good job. And so the care of the shepherd,  the personality of the shepherd, the heart that not is just given in words, but indeed. All of those things show us who a shepherd is, and we are measuring by outcome. I mean again, you go back to the cross or to the resurrection, there were not very many people about looking for him. I think that we love the institution, and it  feels safe to us, and it feels like God must be on our side, because we have 3000 members or whatever, when, in fact, he’s called us to love and to patience and to self-control and things like that. That’s how we look like him, how we serve him, and how we woo others to him.   JULIE ROYS  10:38 Well it is centered around a celebrity so often. And this can happen in large churches, mega churches. This can happen in small churches, where the pastor can be the big fish in the small pond, just as much as you know that the celebrity pastor in this this big institution. And I think when we complain  about the pastor or about the institution, we also have to look at ourselves, don’t we? because we’re the consumers of these type of churches. We are the ones that give money to these churches. What  responsibility do we have as lay people to ensure that our churches are better?   DIANE LANGBERG 11:19 I’m not even sure that I would start thinking about it that way, because to ensure our churches are better means to ensure a system is good, and Jesus didn’t die for systems. So the question is number one for me, on my face, asking him where I am not like him to teach me that and to teach me how to become more like Him in those ways. Part of what doing that and living there, not just doing it once or something, but living in that space with God also sharpens our eyes and our ears, and we begin to recognize things that may be painted beautifully but look nothing like Christ. I think, until that happens, the system is evidence of God, which is not whether it’s a church or a political one, or whatever it is, none of that is his fruit. It’s who we are in the places that we live that is to be his fruit.   JULIE ROYS  12:31 Something I’ve really appreciated about you, and I’m hearing it in this interview, but it’s also in your writings. One of my favorite book actually, of yours is that little. It’s just a tiny paperback book on meditations for counselors. And I have found that it’s not just meditations for counselors, it’s meditations really for anybody who’s in work that does take them through some of the grossest evil that’s out there, and how to protect your soul. And I so appreciate that. I know I read it. I said this at the last RESTORE,, because I went through a very difficult time prior to it, and I read  those meditations, I went through that book twice, just because I found that I needed to protect my soul, so carefully, because, again, the pressures are just not in the right direction. And I know my own flesh  when I encounter these systems, makes me so angry, and you can’t, not when you, when you hear the way that people have abused.   DIANE LANGBERG 13:40 Jesus cracked whips and turns tables over. So I don’t think he likes it much either.   JULIE ROYS  13:46 And that’s something that I say regularly, and people are like, You sound angry, and I’ll be like, Why aren’t you angry? Like this should make us angry genuinely. Yet at the same time, Satan will use that as an opportunity in our own hearts. And you talk about in your book about the role that deception plays. This was so good, and let’s start with the predator himself. Right? How deception works with someone who is again preying on the sheep rather than protecting the sheep. Often, I wonder if they even admit to themselves what they’re doing.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:29 Often not. I think that, I mean, obviously we are deceptive creatures. There’s no exceptions. The only exception was Christ, and so we carry that around. And that’s, I mean, it was started in Eden. I didn’t do it. That girl did it.   JULIE ROYS  14:53 Blame it on the Lord.   DIANE LANGBERG 14:54 Right, of course, but it’s been in us since the beginning. And so our go to thing is when somebody points the finger at us about anything, whether it’s true or not, our first thing is to take care of ourselves. That’s our automatic response, and if what they have given us is true, we have to make it untrue. There’s some way we want to make it untrue because it disturbs us. If we make it true, we don’t want them to think about that. It’s going to hurt our job. It’s going to do whatever. So I don’t think we have really understood the depth of that and its claws on us. And I think that that makes us very vulnerable.   JULIE ROYS  15:47 Yeah, I’m still stunned. James McDonald, who I  reported on back. I mean, it started in 2018 but then he was fired from his church in 2019 and most of the elders stepped down. He is out there now today, even after assaulting a 59-year-old woman and breaking her femur, he is still out there proclaiming his innocence, and even with that blaming it on PTSD that he got from me reporting and this 59-year-old woman supposedly triggered, but by the way, just curious of your professional opinion on PTSD being triggered in a situation like that, to actually assault somebody?   DIANE LANGBERG 16:29 It’s a great cover up on their side.   JULIE ROYS  16:33 And what’s shocking is he got a professional counselor  in court to say that.   DIANE LANGBERG 16:40 If someone has been doing terrible things and actually really begins to see it and is hit by what they have done and grieving by what they have done, having them look like they have PTSD would be expected, but it’s at their own hands that it’s there. It’s not you who did this or said this, therefore I feel this which many abusers would do.   JULIE ROYS  17:06 and it is interesting how the blame often goes everywhere, except on the one person who’s caused it. Let’s talk about deception now with the abused and even with systems. I mean, it does always, I find it difficult to wrap my head around although I know it happens and I believe it happens, but the idea that somebody could be sexually abusing you, and yet you think that this is somehow okay spiritually, like you’re a Christian and  you’re able to believe the lies that are told you. Talk about that dynamic and how that plays into it.   DIANE LANGBERG 17:51 Well, I would say first of all that I don’t think we have really very much understanding of how deep deception is in all of us. No exceptions. No exception is Jesus Christ, and we do it quickly and easily. And anybody who’s raised children realizes it takes about two seconds after birth of them to figure it out. But you don’t have to teach them. It’s there. And so the way that we think is flawed, and I don’t think we start with that premise. We know other people where it’s flawed, but  we’re doing the right thinking, and we don’t expose or look at ourselves in those ways. So I think we have very little understanding of the depth of deception in individual humans, often on a daily basis, and then how that shapes and controls systems which only reinforce the deception that we have because we like the system. So it’s here since the beginning. It’s got deep roots.   DIANE LANGBERG 19:20 When I was a young girl, one of my grandmothers lived in the mountains of West Virginia, and I was staying with her for a couple of days, and she said to me, go downstairs to the cellar and bring up the clothes that we were washing. So I do, and we’re talking about a dirt floor cellar and the whole thing. So I go down into the cellar to get the clothes, and I started crying and screaming, and my grandmother came running, and I came running up the stairs. She turned on the lights, and she said, Watch. And then she said to me, if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. And that came back to me some years ago; in terms of deception, in organizations, in myself, in leaders, in whatever, turning on the lights. And that’s what Jesus did and does –  rats run! And then we have to make a choice. Number one, are we going to turn on the light? which most of us are very uncomfortable. I mean, I don’t need him. I get that turn on the light, and they will run.   JULIE ROYS  20:32 So good. I know at RESTORE in 2022 you made the comment that says how to when you were addressing how to recognize a wolf in the church, and you said, Well, one way is to not become one. And I saw  some pushback to that. I thought it was a fantastic point because I think  we all have this, and if we deny that we have it, that’s almost the scariest situation, because if you are not attending to your own heart, that’s when I think you are most likely to fall into this. But some people said, Oh, wait, isn’t this sin leveling? Because it takes a special kind of evil to be a pedophile or to sexually abuse someone, and not all of us are there. Speak to those folks who were saying that, and I think you know, and I understand where they’re coming from. What would you say to them?   DIANE LANGBERG 21:36 Well, I think, first of all, sin in itself is on a continuum. I mean, some sins do hideous damage to people that all the help in the world isn’t going to undo. You know, it’s not going to go away, really, until they see the face of Jesus. There are other things that we do, that we see, and we stop doing, or other people see us stop and we change. And things like, it’s all on a continuum. And the problem is, if you have, let’s say, as an adolescent, you start doing things to cover up things, which is pretty common in adolescence, frankly. Did you do this? No, I didn’t do this. Were you in this place? No, I was not. So forth.   JULIE ROYS  22:35 I’m not sure it’s just adolescents either.   DIANE LANGBERG 22:37 Oh I  know it’s not. The point is that it’s very young, and it happens when you can have a toddler. You ask them, “Did they do something? Did you spill this? No, you know, darn sure they were.   JULIE ROYS  22:51 It reminds me of my grandson who, four-year-old grandson who was asked if he did something. He said, No, my mind made me do that. My mind told me to do that.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:04 Well, that’s a keeper number one and number two, I mean, teach him when he has a different level brain to look at himself. But yes, it’s in all of us. And so when I said that what I’m saying is, don’t live even minorly in the way that perpetrators live. Don’t excuse harm to others. Doesn’t have to be sexual abused, It could be a rude person. Don’t excuse that rudeness. Don’t treat other people  as if they have no value or they can easily be discarded or whatever.   DIANE LANGBERG 23:43 It is the things that grow and control if we keep doing them that we don’t theoretically want to do. And that’s what I mean by that. Look at yourself and  we are very good at saying, Well, I did do this, but I didn’t do that. We do that all the time, and we’re leveling it, and we’re not looking at ourselves in the light when we do that. That’s what we’re called to do.   JULIE ROYS  24:16 I love that you say, put rudeness up there and not honoring people as made in God’s image. I find sometimes it’s hard to remember that even the perpetrator was made in God’s image. And someone who’s taught me a great deal about that is Lori Anne Thompson. I have never heard her dehumanize another human being. Again, for those who don’t know her, she was one of the victims of sexual abuse by Ravi Zacharias. I’ve never heard her do that, and I find being around her makes me a better person, because I always hear her honoring every person. Not that she won’t call them words that they rightly have owned,  but to remember that every single person is made in God’s image and treat them. ,   DIANE LANGBERG 25:09 Yes, you will never meet somebody who is not, even if they’ve got their bodies six feet waiting in hell. They were made in the image of God.   JULIE ROYS  25:23 It reminds me of CS Lewis, who said, “We will never meet a mere mortal.   DIANE LANGBERG 25:28 Right? Yes, which does not mean being easy on it. That’s one of the places many people get confused. If I think this way, then I but actually, if you really think that way and love somebody, I mean they’re dancing in hell, for crying out loud, if they’re abusing children or something like that. The gift to them is the truth and turning on the lights so the rats run .   JULIE ROYS  25:56 Absolutely. And repentance is a gift. And the best thing we can do is call them to repentance, and I try to keep that in the forefront of my work too, that that is always my hope. Do I want them to be removed from spiritual positions? Yes, but ultimately we pray for their soul. Ultimately we pray that they would repent.   JULIE ROYS  26:19 When you talk about the deception that operates in these systems. There’s a lot of, I mean, even psychologically, what’s going on with, I think, the staff, with the people, the lay people, as they hear things. And you talked about something called Truth Default Theory. Would you explain what that is and how that often is in operation when these things begin to get revealed?   DIANE LANGBERG 26:51 The best way to find out what that is to read that section of the book, frankly. And it’s not a short thing to explain, so to speak. But people choose to lie because they think the outcome will be good. If you tell the truth of a big mess, the outcome will be bad, which there’s some truth to that . You’re going to blow something up if you tell the truth. It’ll make a mess, and everything else. And so I think that people want to keep the system okay. And so you’ll see these places or whatever, where the leader has been sexually abusive, maybe for years and years, and they got rid of the leader, but they don’t go any deeper. They don’t go any deeper into it because this is the church, and we want it to be, we want it to thrive, and we’re glad that that stopped and all that kind of stuff. And we make it shallow. It’s not shallow. You can’t do harm like abuse or live with that harm for years or months or whatever, and then just walk away and be fine. It’s not a possibility. And so part of that is understanding the different ways that people hold on to systems. Now, this is my church. I love it. I’m going to protect it. Yes, he did those things, yes, they’re terrible, but we fired him, and that’s all. It’s shallow in terms of really understanding.   JULIE ROYS  28:37 And when we have this vested interest, we do seem to try, and we’ve seen this a lot, we seem to choose who we believe. And so often, I think people are just predisposed to believing the person who has the position of spiritual authority, and usually the victim is someone we’ve never heard of and often, one of the first things that the system does  to protect  their basically, this is their money maker, right? This is their image as a church or as a ministry, is that they will denigrate the person who’s bringing whether it’s a reporter, whether it’s the victims themselves bringing the allegations, and the people seem to be predisposed to just believing the person we want to believe.   DIANE LANGBERG 29:40 Yes, yes, yes. We want it to be okay. We want it just to go back to normal without the bad guy, they figured out. First of all, the understanding of how it seeps into everything, contaminates everything is not understood. So if the bad guy is gone, so to speak, then let’s just be fine. But if a bad guy had run a truck over a half of the denomination and nobody could walk, what would you do? That’s clear there is the harm, and it’s still there, even though the people who drove the trucks got kicked out. But with this kind of thing, I think it’s easier for people to push it away and say, well, the bad is gone. And, this is good, whatever.   JULIE ROYS  30:34 Talk about the larger system. So I often refer to it as the evangelical industrial complex. I think you refer to it a little bit differently, but it’s the same thing. Often it’s not just the particular institution where there’s allegations being raised, but there’s an entire system behind that nation, a denomination, or even a camp like I think we saw that with Mike Bickle and sort of the International Houses of Prayer and their related ministries, and even that seeped into the Messianic ministries that were very much a part of this. Talk to those who maybe are somewhat naive about how these systems work. Because I know before, before I got a job several decades ago at Moody Radio, I didn’t know this existed. I was kind of like, pretty blind to it all. And I just thought, these are all wonderful ministries. And I think a lot of people believe that and  I wish it were all true; some of them are wonderful ministries. But talk about that system and  how it  exists and how it works.   DIANE LANGBERG 31:54 Well, even if you think of it just as a family or a big system like that,  the idea of the family, or the idea of a church, whatever. Those are good ideas. We love the idea. We want to help the idea. We want to make it grow. We want it to get bigger, and all of those things. And then something comes along that shows that there’s cancer  and so sometimes we ignore that. There’s plenty of organizations that do that. Sometimes the response is very superficial, and sometimes people really want to get rid of, say, those who are the source of the cancer, whatever, but they still aren’t doing any treatment for the cancer.   JULIE ROYS  32:42 Some of it’s quite carnal too, isn’t it? Just come down to, I mean, we’re talking dollars and cents with some of these.   DIANE LANGBERG 32:47 Oh my goodness, yes, fame and a whole lot of money.   JULIE ROYS  32:51 It really is amazing, once you get into this, when you realize how much the celebrity pastor supports the entire industry, whether it’s the mega church, whether it’s publishing, whether it’s Christian radio, because we rely on them for our programming and  to bring the big crowds,  or to bring the audience to a station, I mean, all of those things. And I think people don’t realize it is a billions, billions of dollars involved in evangelicalism.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:21 Be we tell ourselves, it’s all God’s work, and his message is getting out there, and people are hearing, and we have to protect that period .   JULIE ROYS  33:30 And despite the fact that these pastors are living in multi-million-dollar homes, sometimes multiple multi-million-dollar homes, and somehow we say they deserve it? like whether they deserve it or not, Christ didn’t live like.   DIANE LANGBERG 33:46  He certainly deserved it, right?   JULIE ROYS  33:50 And yet he, he never, you know, I always go back to Philippians two, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. But instead, emptied Himself and became a servant and it’s like we’ve forgotten that model. And sometimes I’m just like, wow.   DIANE LANGBERG 34:12 Well, I think in many ways, over, I don’t know how many decades, but that the Christian world has forgotten those things, which I can’t imagine how much grief we have caused our God.   JULIE ROYS  34:25 Despite these harms that you talk about in your book, and you explain, and we’ve talked about on this podcast, you express hope for the church. And I think a lot of folks are looking at the American church and not feeling very hopeful at all. Why do you feel that there’s hope?   DIANE LANGBERG 34:48 Because Jesus Christ exists. It goes back to him. But I have also in this work, met very fine, pastors, leaders, whatever, who have come in to see me, whether struggling with something or whatever, but who long to do right to please God, to love Jesus well, to love their people well. So I have not had a diet of only those who are either victims of terrible harm or doing the harm. I think if that’s all I’d had, I would have a much harder thing to think about in terms of my thoughts about God, and I did. There was a time, I don’t know how long ago it was now, some years where I decided I can’t do this anymore. It’s going to make me rotten  inside. And literally got down on my knees and said to God, okay, I’m done. You’ll have to let me know what other job you want me to do. Obviously, he did not do that, because I’m still there. That was a turning point for me in many ways, many of them wonderful. But you know, how much of that can you sit with and look at and not be made sick by it? If you’re not, something’s wrong with you. But if it does that to you, then, how do you deal with yourself?   JULIE ROYS  36:23 And I think one of the most insidious parts of religious abuse and trauma in the church is that it separates you often from community. And I have found, and I haven’t been in this nearly as long as you, but that community, and I think we need to sometimes redefine it. And I mean, I’m in a house church now, and I’ve talked about this on numerous podcasts, but it’s been a safe place for me. It’s been a wonderfully healing place for me. But it’s just been crucial. And I know not everybody has that opportunity, but somehow I just think we have to, we have to seek that out, even if it’s really difficult for us. And I understand some people need to take a break for a while, and I totally get that. And we had a very compassionate church, or house church, where there were a number of us that were wounded, that people were willing to sit with us in that and not try to make something out of what we were doing more than just loving people, which really is, I mean, that’s the essence of it, all right. Wow. That that you’re right. If all you encounter are toxic people doing toxic things, and I still feel this way to this day, the most beautiful people that I know still are Christians. Some of the most ugly ones that I’ve encountered are professing Christians, whether they know Christ, that’s between them and him. But yeah, I will still say  the most loving, beautiful human beings on this planet that I know are still Christians.   DIANE LANGBERG 38:16 Yes, and I have found that to be true. And I’ve sat with people sometimes for years working through growing up with abuse, churches abusing, I mean, just the idea that anybody can grow and have a life and bear good fruit out of all of that, it’s a miracle. But I watch it, it’s there, and it is a thing of beauty,   JULIE ROYS  38:43 Truly is. I’ve said this before, but you are an inspiration to me. I know you’re an inspiration to so many of the folks that are listening,. I would just love to know from you, and I know you, that there is no secret hill or secret formula. But as you’re looking back over five decades of work and your relationship with Jesus, what would be some things that you would say to us, and remaining true to the end, fighting the good fight, being able to say someday before Christ, or hearing him say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. We want to get there. How can we get there?   DIANE LANGBERG 39:40 Well, I think one of the things I would say is that I did try to quit once. I mean, I told God, I was quitting. I didn’t ask him anything. Probably, there’s something about me, of course, but I couldn’t do it. I was either gonna  react in ways that were harmful for people or just deaden myself. Those seem to be the only options, and that was a huge turning point for me. I obviously did stay with it. So he won, but he responded to me and helped me see things in way of the cross that I had not seen before, in who he is in his heart. So feel like quitting. I think that’s pretty normal, you know, and I think a lot of people do. But I think, yeah, I literally got down on my face on the floor, and said, I quit your turn, I don’t know what to do. But he responded, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so grateful I didn’t. I’ve learned more of him by staying I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also seen changes, not just in individuals, which I have, but in some systems, or at least portions of it was probably right.   JULIE ROYS  41:13 I mean obviously God could do all of the work that we do without us. He doesn’t need us, and yet he chooses to allow us to partner with what he’s doing in the world  and through that, we become different people. We become,  I’ve said it to my husband before, like I feel sometimes like he is making us more  enjoyable companions for him.   DIANE LANGBERG 41:44 Yes, we become more like Him. And you don’t feel it in the middle of it, and it takes a long time, but it’s somewhere along the way you look back and go, Oh, that’s not what I was like before. Has his aroma in it.   JULIE ROYS  42:01 Well, I just want to thank you so much for your work, for your writing, and I’m just absolutely thrilled that you’re coming to RESTORE in February. So looking forward to that. And a new thing thanks to Phil Monroe, your partner there, is having a pre-conference for counselors. Because, again, we need to minister to the counselors, to the caregivers, to the pastors, absolutely. And so I’m thrilled that we’re going to be able to do that, and you’re going to be able to participate in that. And then the conference as well and speaking to a lot of people who’ve been through an awful lot of church hurts. So very much looking forward to that. But thank you so much for taking the time today, and thank you for this new book, even though  we weren’t able to have you toward the last RESTORE, which, for me personally, was  a sacrifice, but definitely worth it in the book. So thank you.   DIANE LANGBERG 42:58 Well, thank you for having me, and I am glad for the work that you do. It touches people, but whose souls have been hurt, gives them a taste of light and love. So blessings on you..   JULIE ROYS  43:19 Thank you.   JULIE ROYS  43:22 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I would love to get you a copy of Diane’s latest book, When the Church Harms God’s People. This is our premium to donors this month. So if you give $40 or more to The Roys Report, we’ll send you a copy of Diane’s book. As many of you know, your gifts to this work is what makes it possible. We can’t do anything that we do, from our podcast to our daily reporting to our investigations, without your support. So please consider helping us out, and when you do, we’ll get you a copy of Diane’s book, When the Church Harms God’s People. To donate and get the book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Spotify, or YouTube, that way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

The topics of church hurt, church health, and toxic organizational systems are hot topics in today's culture. In this episode, Pete Singer, Executive Director Of GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) helps us define and discuss what's needed for a healthy church culture. Listen in for:Six key principles of trauma-informed ministryHow to identify healthy vs. unhealthy systemsAnd what to do about it (especially if you're not in charge)Connect with Pete Singer:GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment): https://www.netgrace.org/https://www.youtube.com/@gracegodlyresponsetoabusei6445“Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse”: https://currentsjournal.org/index.php/currents/article/view/444/483Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church by Diane Langberg: https://www.amazon.com/Redeeming-Power-Understanding-Authority-Church/dp/1587434385 Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministryRate, Review, & Follow Laurie on Apple Podcasts"I love Laurie and The Small Church Ministry Podcast!!"

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlcMuch research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted? In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor's kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook. Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she's learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover. As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain. But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn't have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don't try to charge forward before the congregation has healed. Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It's also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who's in a church with others who've experienced deep church hurt. She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study. Guests Kayleigh Clark Kayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score. [00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. [00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast. [00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. [00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. [00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. [00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. [00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today. [00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now. [00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work? [00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy. [00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from. [00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here? [00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches. [00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working. [00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out. [00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma. [00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of. [00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple. [00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it. [00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen. [00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work. [00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that. We talk a lot about that on a lot of podcasts, but we often don’t address again, what’s this collective trauma that, that, you know, that it actually has a social aspect. So talk about why is it important that we begin addressing collective trauma and not just individual trauma, though, you know, obviously we each need to heal as individuals, but collectively as well. [00:08:24] Kayleigh: Yeah. So collective trauma is a newer field, even in psychological studies. So it’s, Not as old as individual trauma studies, and it actually became more popular through the work of Kai Erikson, who’s a sociologist. He’s not even a psychologist, but he studied collective trauma in kind of what he refers to as unnatural disasters. [00:08:43] Kayleigh: And so these disasters that are experienced by communities that have a human, like, blame component. So it was due to somebody’s negligence due to somebody’s poor leadership due to somebody’s abuse, and it’s on a community. And so Kai Erickson notes the, the social, he calls it the social dimension of trauma or collective trauma. [00:09:03] Kayleigh: And what he, he details there is that collective trauma is anything that disrupts and ruptures the, uh, relationships within a community. Distorting and taking apart their, uh, he calls it communality instead of community, but it’s their sense of, like, neighborliness. It’s their sense of being together. It’s their, Their shared identity and their, their shared memories are all now distorted. [00:09:26] Kayleigh: And so I think when we’re speaking specifically about the church, and when we’re looking at religious trauma and congregational trauma, we need to remember that the church is first and foremost, a community. And so sometimes I think that’s missed in our kind of American individualism. You know, a lot of people kind of view spirituality as this individualistic thing, but the church is a community. [00:09:48] Kayleigh: And so when we come together as the body of Christ, you know, when wounding happens, when trauma comes, it breaks down the relationships within that congregation, which really. is what makes it a church. The relationships are what make that a church. And so when trauma comes in and disrupts those and starts causing the divisions and the distrust and the he said, she said, and the choosing of sides and the church splits and all of these things have these ripple effects on the community. [00:10:19] Kayleigh: Um, and they really are, are traumatizing. And so what happens is that if we don’t deal, if we’re only dealing with the individual trauma, In part, that’s usually dealing with people who have left the church, right? And so usually the people who are seeking individual healing from their religious trauma, who are able to name that, who are able to say, I went through this, have often stepped outside of the church. [00:10:42] Kayleigh: Sometimes just for a season, which is completely understandable. They need that time away. They need time to heal. They’re, they don’t, feel safe. But what we’re missing when we neglect the social dimension of religious trauma are often the people who stay are these congregations who can’t name it yet, who can’t articulate that what they’ve gone through is religious trauma, who who maybe are still trying to figure out what that means. [00:11:07] Kayleigh: Often it means that we’re missing, um, you know, these, these the church that I served in, you know, isn’t one of these big name churches that’s going to get, you know, newscasted about. And they can’t necessarily name what happened to them as religious trauma because nobody’s given them the language for it. [00:11:25] Kayleigh: And so we’ve often missed these, these declining churches. We’ve missed because we haven’t remembered that Trauma is communal that trauma is relational. And so we need to, yes, provide as much care and as much resourcing as we can for the healing of individuals, because you can’t heal the community if the individuals don’t know. [00:11:44] Kayleigh: But we really need to remember that the community as a whole. impacted, and that especially when we’re talking about the church, we want to be able to heal and restore those relationships. And to do that means we have to address the social dimensions of the religious trauma. And so [00:12:01] Julie: often the people that, that stay aren’t aware of what’s happened to them. [00:12:08] Julie: Are they not even aware they’re traumatized? [00:12:11] Kayleigh: Right, right. Yeah. [00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. You introduced this, this concept, which is great. I mean, it’s, it’s a riff off of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which, you know, um, just an incredible book by, uh, Dr. Vander Kolk. But this idea that the body of Christ keeps the score. [00:12:33] Julie: Describe what you mean by that, that the body of Christ keeps the score when there’s this kind of trauma that it’s experiencing. [00:12:40] Kayleigh: Sure. So you kind of alluded to it earlier when you were giving an example of the removing of a toxic pastor, right? And then just the placement of a new pastor. And so often what happens in these situations where there’s spiritual abuse or, um, clergy misconduct or any of those things that’s causing this religious trauma, the answer seems to be, well, let’s just remove the. [00:13:00] Kayleigh: Problem person. And then that will solve everything. Um, well, what happens is we forget that trauma is embodied, right? And so you can remove the physical threat. Um, but if you remove the physical threat or the problem person, but this congregation still has this embodied sense of trauma in which they perceive threat now. [00:13:23] Kayleigh: So they’re reacting to their surroundings out of that traumatized position, because that’s what the collective body has learned to do. And so you see this, um, It’s a silly example, but I use it because I think people see it a lot. So you have a new pastor come in and the new pastor has a great idea, at least he or she thinks it’s a great idea. [00:13:46] Kayleigh: And it probably has to do with removing pews or changing carpet color. Okay. And so they present this, what they think is just a great harmless idea. And the response of the congregation is almost volatile and the pastor can’t figure out why. And often, unfortunately, what pastors have kind of been taught to identify is that they must just idolatry. [00:14:11] Kayleigh: They just have the past as an idol for them and they need to kill this golden cow. Right. And so it becomes this theological problem. Sure, there might be cases where that is the truth, but often I would say that there’s, um, a wonderful. So another great book on trauma. It’s more on racialized trauma, but it deals a lot with historical trauma is, um, rest my Mac mannequins book, um, my grandmother’s hands and in it, he addresses this historical trauma that is embodied and he quotes Dr. [00:14:42] Kayleigh: Noel Larson, who says, if it’s hysterical, it’s probably historical. In other words, if the reaction to the thing happening doesn’t seem to match, like it seems out of proportion, either too energized or not enough energy around it, it’s probably connected to some kind of historical trauma that hasn’t been processed. [00:15:03] Kayleigh: And so we see this a lot in churches who are having a hard time being healthy and flourishing and engaging with the community around them. And. The reason why is often because they have this unhealed trauma that nobody’s given them language for. Nobody’s pointed out, nobody’s addressed for them. Um, and so it’s just kind of lingering under the surface, unhealed, unnamed, and it’s informing how they believe, how they act. [00:15:33] Kayleigh: Um, and so this is really What I mean when I say the body of Christ keeps the score is that the body of Christ has embodied this trauma and it’s coming out in their behaviors, in their actions, in their values, and our pastors are not equipped to address it from a trauma informed perspective. They’ve only been given tools to address it from maybe a theological position, or this kind of revitalization remissioning perspective. [00:16:02] Kayleigh: That often doesn’t work. [00:16:04] Julie: There’s so many things I’m thinking as as you’re talking. I mean one. to come in and do something. And then because people react to, I mean, basically that’s shaming them. It’s guilting them to say, Oh, you have an idol or what’s wrong with you that you can’t get on board. And the truth is they don’t know what’s wrong with them. [00:16:23] Julie: They, they don’t. And, and they’re hurt. And all they know is you just, they’re hurt and now you’ve hurt them. So now they don’t trust you. So way to go. Um, but I’m thinking maybe because we brought this up and I don’t mean to beat up on, on Willow Creek, but I’m thinking about. When the new pastor came in, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy, um, you know, they, they were bleeding money. [00:16:45] Julie: Obviously they, they did not have the resources they did before. So one of the first things they did was they centralized, which meant the campus pastors weren’t going to be preaching anymore. They were going to be pumping in video sermons. Here’s the pastor that people trusted on these campuses. Now, that person’s not going to be preaching, which then of course, all of them left. [00:17:06] Julie: They ended up leaving and the trauma you’d now it’s trauma upon trauma. And it just seems like, especially in so many of these churches, you bring somebody in and they want to move somewhere like, right. They want a thriving church. What they don’t want to do is be at a church and sit in your pain. And yet. [00:17:27] Julie: Unless that’s done, I mean, can these churches, I mean, can they move forward? I mean, what’s going to happen if you come in and you don’t? slow down and say, these people are hurting and I need to, I need to be a shepherd. Then that’s the other thing. It’s so many of these mega churches, and I know this isn’t unique to mega churches that this happens, but I, it’s the world in which I report so often is that these mega churches are very mission vision, five year plan oriented and what they’re not capable of doing. [00:17:59] Julie: I think so many of these, you know, and they always bring in the, the pastor. That’s a good orator, maybe not a shepherd at all. In fact, some of these guys even say, I’m not a shepherd, which that’s another, yeah, I mean, but, but to actually, they need a shepherd at that point. Right. I mean, these, these people need it. [00:18:20] Julie: So, I mean, again, what, what do they need to do? And what happens if they don’t do some of these things? [00:18:28] Kayleigh: So the thing that I have really been drawn to, especially as I study Jesus, and I look at what it means to be trauma informed in the pastorate. So I, I do believe that God is still working through pastors. [00:18:39] Kayleigh: Um, in fact, there’s a really beautiful section of scripture in Jeremiah 23, where God is addressing abusive shepherds and God’s response is, I will raise up new shepherds. So God still wants to work through shepherds. There is still a place for a pastor. The problem is, is I don’t think we’ve taught pastors how to lead out of a posture of compassionate curiosity. [00:19:03] Kayleigh: And so if you follow Jesus and you look at the way that Jesus interacts with hurting people, it is out of this beautiful, humble posture of compassionate curiosity. And so I was always struck by like, he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? And it always seemed like a. That’s a strange question. [00:19:20] Kayleigh: Like, he’s blind, Jesus. What do you think he and often it’s preached on, like, well, we need to be able to tell God what we want. And that’s maybe some of it. But I think it’s also the truth that God knows that it can be re traumatizing to somebody to tell them what they need and what they want. Right? So what we learned when we studied trauma is that it’s not. [00:19:40] Kayleigh: So especially when we’re talking trauma caused by abuse is that abuse is so connected to control. And so what has often happened to these victims of religious abuse of spiritual abuse is that they have had control taken from them entirely. And so when a new pastor comes in and tells them, this is what you need to get healthy again, and never takes the time to approach them from this. [00:20:02] Kayleigh: posture of compassionate curiosity, they can end up re traumatizing them. Um, but our pastors aren’t trained to ask these questions. And so, so often if you read, you know, and they’re well meaning books, you know, they’re, they’re trying to get to what’s going on in the heart of the church. They’re trying to get back to church health, but so many of the books around that have to deal with. [00:20:23] Kayleigh: Asking the church, what are you doing or what are you not doing? And trauma theory teaches us to ask a different question. And that question is what happened to you? And I think if pastors were trained to go into churches and ask the question, what happened to you and just sit with a church and a hold the church and, and listen to the stories of the church, they, they might discover that these people have never been given space to even think about it that way. [00:20:52] Kayleigh: You know, where they’ve just, they’ve had abusive leaders who have just been removed or they’ve had manipulative leaders who have just been removed and they’ve just been given a new pastor and a new pastor and nobody’s given them the space. To articulate what that’s done to them, um, as individuals and as a congregation. [00:21:09] Kayleigh: And so if we can learn to, to follow Jesus in just his curiosity, and he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? He, he says, who touched me when the woman reaches out and touches him. And that’s not a, it’s not a question of condemnation. That’s a question of permission giving. He knows that this woman needs more than physical healing. [00:21:28] Kayleigh: She needs relational healing. She needs to tell her story. And by pausing and saying, who touched me? He provides a space for her to share her story that she’s never been able to share with anyone before. And I think if we were to follow that Jesus, as pastors and as leaders, we would begin to love the Bride of Christ in such a way that would lead to her healing, instead of feeling the need to just rush her through some five year plan to what we think is healing and wholeness, and what actually may not be what they would say is what they need. [00:22:02] Julie: So many things you’re saying are resonating with me. And part of that’s because, uh, like I said, we’re living this. Um, I, I told you last week when we talked that our, our house church was going on a retreat, first retreat we’ve ever had. We’ve been together a little over, well, for me, I came in about two years ago and I think they had been meeting maybe eight or nine months before then. [00:22:29] Julie: Some of the people in our group, Um, don’t come out of trauma. Um, you know, one of our, one of the couples in our church, uh, they’re like young life leaders, really just delightful, delightful, delightful people, but they haven’t lived the religious trauma. One couple is, they’re from the mission field and they had a great missions experience. [00:22:55] Julie: The only trauma they might be experiencing is coming home to the U. S. The truth is they love the mission field, right? Um, and then. The remainder of us come from two, two churches, um, that, that had some sexual abuse that was really, you know, mishandled and the trust with the leaders was, was broken in really grievous ways. [00:23:19] Julie: Um, and then there’s me on top of having that, um, living in this space where, I mean, I just report on this all the time. And so, but one of the beautiful things that happened in this, in this group is that it did have leaders when we came into it and it triggered us. Like, you know, and for us it was like, oh, here’s the inside group and the outside group. [00:23:47] Julie: Like, we’re used to the ins and the outs, right? And, and we’re used to the inside group having power and control, and the rest of us just kind of go along with it. And, and we’re, we’re a tiny little group. Like we’re 20 some people, right? But, but it’s just, and, and we’re wonderful people. Wonderful people. [00:24:02] Julie: And yet we still like, it was like, mm. And um, and so. The beautiful thing is that those leaders recognize, like they didn’t fully understand it, but they said, you know, I think we need to just step down and just not have leaders. And I didn’t even realize till we went on this retreat what an act of service and of love that was for them to just say, were laying down any, any agendas we might’ve had, any even mission or vision that we might’ve had. [00:24:35] Julie: And for one of, you know, one of the guys, it was really hard for him cause he’s just like, Mr. Mr. Energy and initiative. And, and he was like, I better not take initiative because like, it’s, it’s not going to be good for these folks. Um, and on the retreat. So then, I mean, it was, it was really a Holy Spirit. [00:24:54] Julie: experience, I think for all of us, because there definitely was a camp that was like, okay, we’ve had this kind of healing time, but can, can we move forward a little bit? Like, can we, can we have some intentionality? And then there were part of us that were just like, oh my word, if we, if we, if we have leaders, why do we need leaders? [00:25:12] Julie: We’re 20 something people. Like we can just decide everything ourselves. And, and there really was somewhat of an impasse, but it’s interesting. The things that you said for me, And it was funny at one point. They’re like, can’t you just trust? And, you know, kind of like, what, what are you guys afraid of? You know? [00:25:29] Julie: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was control control. Like we’re afraid of control, um, or I’m afraid of control. Um, but what was so, so. Huge for me and I think was one of those again, Holy Spirit moments was when, you know, I was trying to like make a point about power dynamics, like you don’t realize power and like we have to be aware of how power is stewarded in a group like this because everybody has power. [00:25:59] Julie: If you don’t realize as a communicator the power that you have, like I’m aware now that because I can, I can form thoughts pretty quickly. That I can have a lot of influence in a group. I’m aware of that. And so, you know, there was even like a part where I was leading and then I was like, I can’t lead this next thing. [00:26:17] Julie: I’ve been leading too much, you know, and then we, and then we gave, we, somebody had a marker and we gave the marker to, to, um, one of the guys in our group who’s fantastic guy. And, um, And at one point, so, so anyway, I was talking about power and, and one of the guys was like, well, I don’t, I don’t really see power. [00:26:35] Julie: I don’t need. And I’m like, you have it, whether you realize it and you have it. And what was huge is that one of the other guys that sort of a leader was a leader was able to say what she’s talking about is real. Everybody has power. This is really important. And he was quite frankly, somebody with a lot of power in that group because he has a lot of trust, used to be a pastor. [00:26:57] Julie: Um, and for him to acknowledge that for the rest of us was huge. And then this, this other guy, I mean, he said at one point, Oh, well, you know, so and so’s holding the marker right now and he has power, doesn’t he? And I was like, yes, you’re getting it. That’s it. That’s it. Thank you. Because he’s like, you just reframed what we said and I wouldn’t have reframed it that way. [00:27:22] Julie: Like I wouldn’t. And I’m like, yes, exactly. It’s like, and it was like, it was like the light bulbs were going on and people were starting to get it. Um, and then another key, key moment was when one of the women who, you know, wasn’t, you know, from our church where we experienced stuff, who said, can you, can you tell me how that, how that felt for you when we used to have leaders? [00:27:46] Julie: And then for people to be able to express that. And people listened and it was like, and I was able to hear from this guy who felt like he was, he had a straight jacket, you know, because he, he like wants to use his, his initiative. Like he, he. You know, and God’s given that to him. It’s a good thing, you know. [00:28:07] Julie: And all I can say is it was just an incredible experience, an incredible moment, but it would not have happened if, and now I’m going to get kind of, it wouldn’t have happened if people cared more about the mission than the people. And they didn’t realize the people are the mission. This is Jesus work. He doesn’t care about your five year plan. [00:28:41] Julie: He doesn’t care about your ego and the big, you know, plans that you have and things you can do. What he cares is whether you’ll lay your life down for the sheep. That’s what shepherds do. And what I saw in, in our group was the willingness to, for people that have shepherding gifts to lay down their, you know, not literally their lives, but in a way their lives, their, their dreams, their hopes or visions, everything to love another and how that created so much love and trust, you know, in our group. [00:29:22] Julie: And we’re still like trying to figure this out, but yeah, it was, it was hugely, it just so, so important. But I thought how many churches are willing to do that, are willing to, to sit in the pain, are willing to listen. And I’m, I’m curious as you go in now, there’s so much of your work has become with ReStory is, is education and going into these churches. [00:29:52] Julie: You know, normally when this happens, And you told me there’s a, there’s a name for pastors that come in. It’s the afterpastor. Afterpastor. [00:30:00] Kayleigh: Yes. The afterpastor. [00:30:02] Julie: How many times does the afterpastor get it? And does he do that? [00:30:07] Kayleigh: So the problem is, and I can tell you, cause I have an MDiv. I went, I did all the seminary. [00:30:11] Kayleigh: I’m ordained. We don’t get trained in that. Um, so, and there is, um, like you said, so you use this guy as an example who has the clear. Initiative gifts. So they’re what would be called kind of the Apostle, um, evangelist gifts in like the pastoral gift assessment kind of deal. You’ve got the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. [00:30:34] Kayleigh: And right now there’s a lot of weight kind of being thrown behind the Apostle evangelist as kind of the charismatic leader who can set the vision. And so most of the books on pastoral You know, church health and church are written kind of geared and directed that way. Um, so we’re really missing the fact that when we’re talking about a traumatized church, what you really need is a prophet shepherd. [00:30:57] Kayleigh: Um, you need somebody who can come in and shepherd the people and care for them well, but also the prophet. The role of the prophet is often to help people make meaning of their suffering. So if you read closely, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, particularly who are two prophets speaking to people in exile, what they’re really doing is helping people make meaning of that suffering. [00:31:17] Kayleigh: They’re helping people tell their story. They’re, they’re lamenting, they’re crying with them. They’re, they’re asking the hard questions. Um, and they’re able to kind of see between the lines. So prophet, Pastors who have kind of that prophetic gifting are able to see below. They’re able to kind of slow down and hear the actual story beyond the behaviors, right? [00:31:35] Kayleigh: So the behaviors aren’t telling the whole story, but we need eyes to see that. And so the problem, I would say, is that a lot of well, meaning pastors simply aren’t taught how to do this. And so they’re not given the resources. They’re not given kind of the, um. this like Christian imagination to be able to look at a church and say, okay, what has happened here and what healings take place here? [00:31:59] Kayleigh: Um, the other problem is, you know, we need to be able to give space. So denominational leaders need to be able to be okay with a church that maybe isn’t going to grow for a few years. And I think that is whether we like it or not. And we can say all day long that we don’t judge a church’s health by its numbers. [00:32:19] Kayleigh: But at the end of the day, pastors feel this pressure to grow the church, right? To have an attendance that’s growing a budget that’s growing and. And so, and part of it is from a good place, right? We want to reach more people from Jesus, but part of it is just this like cultural pressure that defines success by numbers. [00:32:36] Kayleigh: And so can we be okay with a church that’s not going to grow for a little while? You know, can we be okay with a church that’s going to take some like intentional time to just heal? And so when you have an established church, um, which is a little bit different than a house church model, it can be. A really weird sacrifice, even for the people who are there, because often what you have is you have a segment of the church who is very eager to move forward and move on and and to grow and to move into its new future, and they can get frustrated with the rest of the church. [00:33:15] Kayleigh: That kind of seems to need more time. Um, but trauma healing is it’s not linear. And so, you know, you kind of have to constantly Judith Herman identifies like three components of trauma healing. And so it’s safety and naming and remembering and then reconnecting, but they’re not like you finish safety and then you move to this one and then you move to this one. [00:33:36] Kayleigh: Often you’re kind of going, you’re ebbing and flowing between them, right? Because you can achieve safety and then start to feel like, okay, now I can name it. And then something can trigger you and make you feel unsafe again. And so you’re now you’re back here. And so, um, um, Our churches need to realize that this healing process is going to take time, and collective trauma is complicated because you have individuals who are going to move through it. [00:33:57] Kayleigh: So you’re going to have people who are going to feel really safe, and they’re going to feel ready to name, and others who aren’t. And so you have to be able to mitigate that and navigate that. And our pastors just aren’t simply trained in this. And so what I see happening a lot is I’ll do these trainings and I’ll have somebody come up to me afterwards and go, Oh my goodness, I was an after pastor and I had no idea that was a thing. [00:34:18] Kayleigh: And they’re like, you just gave so much language to my experience. And you know, and now I understand why they seem to be attacking me. They weren’t really attacking me. They just don’t trust the office of the pastor. And I represent the office of the pastor. Okay. And so sometimes they take that personally again, it becomes like these theological issues. [00:34:38] Kayleigh: And so helping pastors understand the collective trauma and being able to really just take the time to ask those important questions and to increase not only their own margin for suffering, but to increase a congregations margin for suffering. You know, to go, it’s going to be, we can sit in this pain. [00:34:58] Kayleigh: It’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s going to be important, you know, learning how to lament, learning how to mourn. All of these things are things that often we’re just not trained well enough in, um, as pastors. And so therefore our congregations aren’t trained in them either. You know, they don’t have margin for suffering either. [00:35:14] Kayleigh: Um, and so we need to be able to equip our pastors to do that. Um, and then equip the congregations to be able to do that as well. [00:35:20] Julie: So good. And I’m so glad you’re doing that. I will say when I first started this work, um, I was not trauma informed. I didn’t know anything about trauma really. And I didn’t even, you know, I was just a reporter reporting on corruption and then it turned into abuse in the church. [00:35:38] Julie: And I started interfacing with a lot of abuse victims. who were traumatized. And I think back, um, and, and really, I’ve said this before, but survivors have been my greatest teachers by far, like just listening to them and learning from them. But really from day one, you know, it’s loving people, right? It really, it like, if you love and if you empathize, which You know, some people think it’s a sin, um, just cannot, um, but if you do that and, and that’s what, you know, even as I’m thinking about, um, within our own, our own house church, there were people who weren’t trained, but they did instinctively the right things because they loved. [00:36:28] Julie: You know, and it just reminds me, I mean, it really does come down to, they will know you are Christians by your love. You know, how do we know love? Like Christ laid down his life for us. He is our model of love and, and somehow, you know, like you said, the, in the church today we’ve, we’ve exalted the, um, what did you say? [00:36:49] Julie: The apostle evangelist? The apostle evangelist. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we’ve exalted that person, um, you know, And I think we’ve forgotten how to love. And too many of these pastors don’t know how to love. They just don’t know how to love. And it’s, it’s tragic. Because they’re supposed to be I mean, the old school models, they were shepherds, you know, like you said, like we need apostles, we need evangelists. [00:37:16] Julie: But usually the person who was leading the church per se, the apostles and evangelists would often end up in parachurch organizations. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. I think the church needs all of those things. Um, and, uh, But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve left that behind, sadly. And there’s nothing sexy about being a shepherd. [00:37:37] Kayleigh: Yeah, no, I, all, all of the Apostle, I mean that, well, the whole thing is needed, um, and it’s most beautiful when we just work together, and, and when they can respond to each other. So, I mean, me and you’re an example in your house, you’re a visiting example of this. You can’t, even if just listening, you have some clear Apostle evangelists in your group, right? [00:37:54] Kayleigh: I mean, Um, right? And so you have these people wired for that, and yet they’re able to, to learn and respond to some of the people in the group who have more of those prophet shepherd tendencies. And so I think that that’s really what, and that’s loving, right? So we should go back. It’s just loving one another and learning from one another. [00:38:17] Kayleigh: And knowing when to lean into certain giftings and to learn from others giftings. This is why it’s the body of Christ. And so when a component of the body of Christ is left out, we can’t be who God’s called us to be. And so when we neglect the role of the shepherd and neglect the role of the prophet or minimize them, or see them as secondary, then we’re not going to do called us to be. [00:38:44] Kayleigh: You know, we may need all of it to come together to do what God has called us to do. God is working in this church. He’s worked all through this church. He has established it and called it, and He’s going to use it. But we need to be learning how He has built it and how He framed it. For me to love one another and not elevate one gifting above another. [00:39:07] Julie: And it’s interesting too, you mentioned the office of the pastor. Um, I know as we were discussing some of this, we have one guy who’s very, I mean, actually our entire group, and I think this is probably why we’ve been able to navigate some of this. It’s it’s a really spiritually mature group. A lot of people. [00:39:26] Julie: who have been in leadership, um, which sometimes you get a lot of leaders together and it can be, you know, but this hasn’t been that way because I think people really do love the Lord. Um, and they love each other. Um, but one of the things that was brought up, um, is Is the pastor an office or is it a role and have we made it into an office and, and what we realized in the midst of that and I, you know, I, I’m like, well, that’s really interesting. [00:39:57] Julie: I would like to study that. And I find there, there’s a curiosity when you talk compassionate curiosity, I think there’s also a curiosity in, in people who have been through this kind of trauma. There’s a curiosity in, okay, what, what did we do? that we did because everybody said that’s how we’re supposed to do it. [00:40:18] Kayleigh: Yeah. [00:40:18] Julie: Yeah. Do I really have that conviction? Could I really argue it from scripture? Is this even right? And so I find even in our group, there is a, there is a, um, there’s a curiosity and maybe this is because we’re coming through and we’re in, you know, I think a later stage of healing is that now we’re like really curious about what should we be? [00:40:44] Julie: Yes. Yes. What should we be, like, we, we want to dig into what, what is a church, what should it really be, and what, why, how could we be different? Of course, always realizing that you can have the perfect structure and still have disaster. Um, it really does come down to the character of the people and, and that, but, but yeah, there’s a real, Curiosity of, of sort of, um, digging, digging into that. [00:41:10] Julie: And, and let me just, I can ask you, and, and maybe this will be a rabbit trail, maybe we’ll edit it out. I don’t know. Um, , but, but I am curious what do, what do you think of that idea that the, the pastorate may be a role that we’ve made into an office and maybe that could be part of the problem? [00:41:27] Kayleigh: I think that’s a lot of it. [00:41:28] Kayleigh: Um, because when we turn the, the pastorate into an office, we can lose the priesthood of all believers. So that I think is often what happens is that, um, you create this pastoral role where now all of the ministry falls on to the pastor. And so instead of the pastor’s role being to equip the saints for the ministry, which is what scripture says, the scripture describes a pastor as equipping the saints for the ministry. [00:41:56] Kayleigh: Now the pastor is doing the ministry, right? There’s, there’s just all of this pressure on the pastor. And that’s, that’s where I think we start to see this. The shift from the pastor being the one who is, you know, encouraging and equipping and edifying and, you know, calling up everybody to live into their role as the body of Christ where we’ve seen. [00:42:19] Kayleigh: You know, I have a soft spot for pastors. Again, I’m like, they’re all my relatives are them. I love pastors and I know some really beautiful ones who get into ministry because that’s exactly what they want to do. And so what has often happened though, is that the, the ways of our culture have begun to inform how the church operates. [00:42:40] Kayleigh: And so we saw this, you know, when, when the church started to employ business In kind of the church growth movement. So it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to grow things? Business people know how to grow things. Okay. Well, what are they doing? Right. And so now that the pastor is like the CEO, people choose their churches based on the pastor’s sermon, right? [00:43:00] Kayleigh: Well, I like how this pastor preaches. So I’m going to go to that church. Um, so some of it is. So I would say that not all of it is pastors who have like that egotistical thing within them at the beginning. Some of it is that we know that those patterns exist. But some of these men and women are genuinely just love the Lord’s people and then get into these roles where they’re all of a sudden like, wait, I, Why, why is it about me and others, this pressure to preach better sermons and the person down the road or, you know, run the programs and do all of these things instead of equipping the people to do the work of God. [00:43:38] Kayleigh: And so I think it’s, it’s about, and right, I think it’s happened internally in our churches, but I also think there’s this outward societal pressure that has shifted the pastor from this shepherding role to the CEO office. Um, And finding the, like, middle ground, right? So again, like, we can swing the pendulum one way and not have pastors. [00:44:05] Kayleigh: Or we can swing the pendulum the other way and have pastors at the center of everything. But is there a way of finding, kind of, this middle ground where people who are fairly calm and gifted and anointed by God to do rich shepherding can do it in a way that is Zen sitting that church that is equal famous saint that is calling the body of Christ to be what it is called be. [00:44:27] Kayleigh: And I guess I’m, I’m constantly over optimistic and so I’m convinced that there’s gotta be a way , that we can get to a place where pastors can live out of their giftings and live by their callings and live out of their long dreams in such a way. That leads to the flourishing health of the church and not to its destruction. [00:44:45] Julie: Yes. And, and I think if it’s working properly, that absolutely should be there. They should be a gift to the church. Um, and, and sadly we just, we haven’t seen enough of that, but that is, that is, I think the model. Um, let’s talk specifically, and we have talked, or we might not have named it, um, but some of the results of this collective trauma. [00:45:08] Julie: in a congregation. Um, let’s, let’s name some of the things. These are ways that this can, that this can play itself out. [00:45:17] Kayleigh: Sure. So when we’re talking about congregational collective trauma, one of the main results that we’ve talked about kind of in a roundabout way is this lack of trust that can happen within the congregation. [00:45:27] Kayleigh: And this can be twofold. We can talk about the lack of trust for the leadership, but it all also can be lack of trust. Just, In the congregation itself, um, this often happens, particularly if we’re looking at clergy misconduct that maybe wasn’t as widespread. So I think this is some of what you’ve kind of talked about with Willow Creek a little bit, and I’m, I wasn’t in that situation, but I’ve seen it other places where, you know, in our system, the denominational leadership removes a pastor. [00:45:56] Kayleigh: And so what can happen in a system like that is that denominational leadership becomes aware of abuse. They act on the abuse by removing the pastor. And what you have happening is kind of this, um, Betrayal trauma or this, you know, bias against believing. And so because the idea that their clergy person who they have loved and trusted, you know, shepherd them could possibly do something that atrocious. [00:46:24] Kayleigh: That idea is too devastating for them to internalize. So it feels safer to their bodies to deny it. And so what can happen is you can have a fraction of the church. that thinks it’s, you know, all made up and that there’s no truth to it. And they began to blame the denominational leadership as the bad guys or that bad reporter that, you know, the [00:46:45] Julie: gossip monger out there. [00:46:47] Julie: It’s so bad. [00:46:48] Kayleigh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you have this split. Now, sometimes it literally splits and people will leave. Um, but sometimes they don’t and they all stay. And so you have these fractions of people who believe different things about what happened. And so now there’s, there’s a lack of shared identity. [00:47:08] Kayleigh: So I would say one of the key components of collective trauma in a congregation is this mistrust, which is often connected to a lack of shared identity. And so they can’t really figure out who they are together. What does it mean for us to be a community to get there? Um, and so trauma begins to write their story. [00:47:27] Kayleigh: And so when we talk about the embodiment of trauma, one of the ways that that works in individuals, and this is like a mini neuroscience lesson that many of your listeners are probably aware of, because I think you have a very trauma informed audience. Audience, but, um, you know, that it, it makes us react out of those fight, flight, or freeze responses. [00:47:46] Kayleigh: And so that happens individually, right? So something triggers us and all of a sudden we’re at our cortisol is raised. We’re acting out of the, uh, you know, those flight flight places that happens communally too. So a community gets triggered by, you know, a pastor again, having what they think is just a creative idea, you know, but maybe it triggers that time that that pastor. [00:48:09] Kayleigh: Had a creative idea that was, you know, and ran with it without talking to anybody and just like wield the control and manipulated people. And now, all of a sudden, this pastor who thinks they just have this innocent, creative idea is now seen as manipulative. And what are they going to try to do behind our backs? [00:48:27] Kayleigh: And what are they going to try? And, and. What are they going to take from us? Right? And so trauma, trauma takes from people. And so now they’re living kind of out of this perpetual perceived fear, perceived threat, that something else is going to be lost. And so when you have a congregation that’s constantly operating out of, you know, this fight, flight, or freeze response. [00:48:52] Kayleigh: Collectively, I mean, how can we expect them to live out the mission that God has given them? Um, you know, they’re not, they’re not there. They’re not able to, um, they’re not able to relate to one another in a healthy way. And so we, we see a lack of kind of intimate relationships in these congregations, right? [00:49:09] Kayleigh: Because so the Deb Dana, who has helped people really understand the polyvagal theory, when we’re talking about, um, trauma talks about your, your, um, Nervous system, your autonomic nervous system is kind of being like a three rung ladder. And so in this three rung ladder, you have the top rung being your ventral bagel state, which is where you can engage with people in safe and healthy ways. [00:49:32] Kayleigh: And then you move down into kind of your sympathetic nervous system. And this is where you’re in that fight flight freeze and then dorsal bagels at the bottom. And in those two middle and bottom, you can’t build these deep relationships. And again, deep relationships are what make a church a church. And so if you have a congregation that’s stuck in these middle to bottom rungs of this ladder, they’re, they’re fight, flight, freeze, or they’re withdrawing from one another. [00:49:54] Kayleigh: You’re, you’re losing the intimacy, the vulnerability, the safety of these congregations to build those kinds of relationships. And so I would say that, that distrust, that lack of shared identity and that inability to build deeper kind of relationships are three kind of key components of what we’re seeing in congregations who are carrying this collective trauma. [00:50:16] Julie: And yet, if you work through that together, like I will say right now, I feel a great deal of affection for, for everyone. Uh, in our house tours because we went through that chaos together, but also it was, it was an opportunity to see love and people lay down their lives for each other. So to, to be able to see, I mean, you begin writing a new story instead of that old story that’s been so dominant, you know, that you have to tell, you have to work through. [00:50:50] Julie: Yeah, you do. And, and, and you have, you do. I love where you say, you know, people need to, to hear that from you. Yeah. I think that’s really, really important for people to have a safe place. But then at the same time, you can’t, you don’t want to live the rest of your life there. You don’t want that to define, define you. [00:51:09] Julie: Um, and that’s, that’s what’s beautiful though, is if you work through it together, now you, you’ve got a new story, right? You’ve got, you’ve got Dodd doing something beautiful. Um, among you and, and that’s what he does. [00:51:23] Kayleigh: That’s why we call our organization Restory. Um, it is a word used in trauma theory and in reconciliation studies to talk about what communities who have experienced a lot of violence have to do is they have to get to a place where they’re able to, it’s exactly what you’re talking about with your house churches doing is you guys have kind of come to a place where you’re able to ask the question, who do we want to be now? [00:51:45] Kayleigh: And this is this process of restorying. And so what trauma does is in many ways, for a while, it tries to write our stories. And for a while, it kind of has, because of the way that it’s embodied, we kind of, it has to, right? Like we have to process like, okay, I’m reacting to this. trigger because of this trauma that’s happened. [00:52:05] Kayleigh: So how do I work through that? You know, how do I name that? How do I begin to tell that story? And so we, and we have to tell the story, right? Because I mean, trauma theory has been the dialectic of traumas, but Judith Herman talks about is it’s very unspeakable because it’s horrific, but it has to be spoken to be healed. [00:52:22] Kayleigh: Right. And so with this trauma, it can be hard to speak initially. But it needs to be spoken to be healed. But once we’ve done that, once we begin to loosen the control that trauma has on us. Once we’re able to speak it out loud, and then we can get to a place individually and communally where we can start to ask ourselves, Who do we want to be? [00:52:45] Kayleigh: And who has God called us to be? And no, things are not going to be the way they were before the trauma happened. I think that’s the other thing that happens in churches is there’s a lot of misconception. That healing means restoring everything to the way it was before. And when that doesn’t happen, there’s this question of, well, well, did we, did we heal? [00:53:06] Kayleigh: And we have to remember that we’re never going back to the way it was before the trauma happened. But we can begin to imagine what it can look like now. Once we begin to integrate the suffering into our story, and we begin to ask those helpful questions, and we take away the trauma’s control, now we can ask, who do we want to be? [00:53:24] Kayleigh: And we can begin to write a new beautiful story that can be healing for many others. [00:53:29] Julie: A friend of mine who has been through unspeakable trauma, I love when she talks about her husband, because they went through this together, and she often says, he’s like an aged fine wine. You know, and I love that because to me, no, you’re not going back to who you were, but in many ways who you were was a little naive, little starry eyed, a little, you know, and, and once you’ve been through these sorts of things, it is kind of like an aged fine wine. [00:54:01] Julie: You have, you’re, you’re aged, but hopefully in a beautiful way. And, you know, I, I think you’re way more compassionate. Once you’ve gone through this, you’re way more able to see another person who’s traumatized and And to, you know, reach out to that person, to love that person, to care for that person. And so it’s a beautiful restoring. [00:54:26] Julie: And we could talk about this for a very long time. And we will continue this discussion at Restore, [00:54:33] Kayleigh: um, because [00:54:34] Julie: you’re going to be at the conference and that was part of our original discussions. So folks, if you wanna talk more to Kaleigh , come to Restore. I, I’m, I’m gonna fit you in somehow because , I’m gonna be there. [00:54:46] Julie: you’re gonna be there. But do you just have a wealth of, uh, I think research and insights that I think will really, really be powerful? And I’m waiting for you to write your book because it needs to be written. Um, but I’m working on it. , thank you for, for taking the time and for, um, just loving the body. [00:55:07] Julie: And in the way that you have, I appreciate it. [00:55:09] Kayleigh: Well, thank you. Because, you know, when I heard about your work and your tagline, you know, reporting the truth, but restoring the church, you know, I was just so drawn in because that’s what we need. The church is worth it. The church is beautiful and she is worth taking the time to restore. [00:55:24] Kayleigh: And I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing to make sure that that that happens. [00:55:28] Julie: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast and our investigative journalism, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report to support our ongoing work? [00:55:47] Julie: As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors. We mainly have you. The people who care about our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’d like to help us out, just go to Julie Roy’s spelled R O Y S dot com slash donate. That’s Julie Roy’s dot com slash donate. [00:56:07] Julie: Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy’s report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. [00:56:29] Julie: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

¡Hola a todos!

Have you wondered why so many keep saying they have been spiritually abused, and yet you wonder what spiritual abuse even is? Dr. Karen Roudkovski shares her research in her latest book on spiritual abuse and the toll it takes on various types of people and in many types of spiritual spaces even outside of religious houses of worship. Unlock the unexpected truth about spiritual abuse with a licensed therapist who has personally experienced it. Dive deep into the surprising insights and shocking realities of spiritual abuse and how it could happen to anyone, even in unexpected places. Don't miss the exclusive interview where she reveals why the statement "This would never happen to me" is a dangerous assumption. Get ready to be blown away by the eye-opening revelations about spiritual abuse and its impact. Stay tuned for the jaw-dropping truth that will change the way you view spiritual abuse forever. In this episode, you will be able to: Understand the signs and dynamics of spiritual abuse within religious environments to protect yourself and others. Discover the profound impact of spiritual abuse on mental health and well-being, gaining insights into its lasting effects. Explore the role of therapy in the journey of recovering from spiritual abuse, learning about effective healing strategies. Access valuable spiritual abuse assessment tools to gain clarity and validation on your experiences. Navigate the complexities of workplace abuse within church settings, gaining awareness and empowerment to address these issues. Our special guest is: Dr. Karen Roudkovski earned the Master of Divinity and Master of Theology degrees, in addition to a Ph.D. in Counselor Education and Supervision. She is a Licensed Professional Counselor and counseling professor. Dr. Roudkovski is the author of Understanding Spiritual Abuse: What it Is and How to Respond, Spiritual Abuse Assessment: A Tool for Survivors and Their Helpers which released on 8/1/24. She is the author of the forthcoming Spiritual Abuse Recovery Workbook: Engaging Faith in Healing. She is also the co-author of a forthcoming book entitled Counseling through the Storm, on the topic of crisis counseling in ministry and is currently writing a book on the topic of anxiety. EPS with grounding techniques with Dr. Debbie Pinkston EPS with Dr. Wade Mullen on Spiritual Abuse EPS with Dr. Diane Langberg on Spiritual Abuse The key moments in this episode are: 00:00:02 - Introduction to Spiritual Abuse 00:01:40 - Trigger Warning and Grounding Techniques 00:05:49 - Defining Spiritual Abuse 00:08:20 - Writing the Book on Spiritual Abuse 00:15:00 - Minimization of Spiritual Abuse 00:16:12 - Damaging Effects of Spiritual Abuse 00:16:53 - Grooming and Spiritual Abuse 00:18:20 - Idealized Leadership and Hierarchical Structures 00:19:52 - Power Dynamics in Mega Churches 00:31:15 - Areas of Control in Spiritual Abuse 00:32:42 - Importance of Acceptance and Unrealistic Expectations 00:34:03 - Forms of Spiritual Abuse 00:36:14 - Isolation and Control 00:39:19 - Spiritual Abuse of Church Leaders 00:46:43 - Prevalence of Spiritual Abuse in Southern Baptist Ministers 00:47:20 - Qualitative Study on Associate Pastors' Experiences 00:48:09 - Denial of Spiritual Abuse 00:48:48 - Making Churches Safer 00:50:13 - Where to Find Karen Roudkovski 00:51:35 - Impact of Spiritual Abuse 01:01:36 - Appreciation for the Global Audience 01:02:10 - Importance of Reviews and Sharing 01:02:49 - Making a Difference  Follow us: https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.com https://www.linkedin.com/company/aworldofdifference/ https://www.twitter.com/@awodpod https://www.youtube.com/@aworldofdifference https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/ https://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference https://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Phil Monroe knows trauma. He's been a psychologist for decades, he leads a therapy practice with Diane Langberg (another prominent leader in the trauma space), and he writes curriculum for the Trauma Healing Institute, an arm of the American Bible Society. But because of his faith and his relationship with Christ, Phil also knows trauma healing. He knows it takes time and he willingly recognizes that much of his work in helping others heal is maintaining a level of hope his clients can't yet realize. In this episode, Phil speaks candidly about lament, church hurt, and trauma's role as both a block to God and a door to God. He also shares the one question church leaders can consider if their church experiences scandal. This episode is too good to miss. Keep a pen and notebook handy because you're going to want to take notes!Phil's closing remarks: "Things are going to be made right." If you're on a healing journey, may you take those words with you.For more about Phil Monroe.For more about Langberg Monroe & Associates.For more about the Trauma Healing Institute.

This originally aired on February 11, 2021 Eric and Elyse talk with internationally recognized psychologist Dr. Diane Langberg about her life, her career in trauma care, and her latest book Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church.

What is the best way to navigate traumatic events? In this week's episode, Dr. Diane Langberg, a practicing psychologist whose clinical expertise includes 50 years of working with trauma survivors and clergy, gives a gripping perspective in her talk “Trauma as a Place of Service.” Join us as she presents the idea that trauma is a significant mission field for Christ-followers, and she encourages us to reconsider our perspectives. Resources: Create a free THINQ Account to access more trusted content like this on topics from all channels of culture at thinqmedia.com. Attend THINQ events where you can gather with like-minded leaders, ask better questions and have conversations that lead to wisdom: Register for Next Gen Summit, November 8-9, 2024 in Nashville. Host Faithfulness in our Political Moment in your local community on October 3. More from the THINQ Podcast Network: NextUp with Grant Skeldon The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips NeuroFaith with Curt Thompson UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons

In this episode of NeuroFaith, Dr. Curt Thompson interviews Dr. Diane Langberg, a renowned clinical psychologist with over 50 years of experience, particularly in the fields of trauma and abuse. Dr. Langberg discusses her journey into the field, beginning at a time when trauma was not yet a recognized area of study. She shares her experiences with early clients, including a college student who disclosed childhood sexual abuse and Vietnam veterans exhibiting similar trauma symptoms. Dr. Langberg highlights the challenges and misconceptions about trauma within both the clinical and faith communities. She underscores the importance of listening to and validating the experiences of those who have suffered trauma. The conversation also explores how false theology in the church can contribute to misunderstanding and mishandling trauma, emphasizing the need for a deeper, more compassionate understanding of human suffering. Throughout the podcast, Dr. Thompson and Dr. Langberg delve into the evolution of trauma recognition and treatment, the intersection of faith and psychology, and the necessity of acknowledging and addressing wounds for true healing and flourishing. Resources: Create a free THINQ Account to access more trusted content like this on topics from all channels of culture at thinqmedia.com. Check out more from the THINQ podcast network: NextUp with Grant Skeldon The InFormed Parent with Suzanne Phillips THINQ Podcast with Gabe Lyons UnderCurrent with Gabe Lyons

Boz Tchividjian, attorney and advocate for abuse survivors joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast to answer your questions. What's his origin story as an attorney? The origins of GRACE. Thoughts on the Us v Them messaging from many churches. NDAs Who is the Ronan Farrow or Jody Kantor of  #churchtoo reporting? Who did Billy Graham vote for? (Just kidding. Boz didn't completely clear this one up for us!) Links: Sexual Abuse Attorney For Victims | Boz Tchividjian Sexual Abuse Lawyer (bozlawpa.com) GRACE: GRACE (netgrace.org) Diane Langberg at the Caring Well Conference: Suffering and the Heart of God: How Trauma Destroys and Christ Restores – Diane Langberg on Vimeo Boz at the Caring Well Conference: Winter Inside the Church and Hope for Spring – Boz Tchividjian on Vimeo Support the show: Newsletter signup Paypal Donation Come chat with me! Twitter: Amy Fritz  Instagram: Amy Fritz Untangled Faith Website: Untangled Faith Host/Creator: Amy Fritz

We are so grateful to Brian Lee, founder and director of Broken to Beloved, for his time and energy in raising his voice in support of those who have been violated by clergy abuse in all its forms. Brian shares his journey of identifying, naming, and recovering from spiritual abuse in a church system and provides several insights and suggestions for those on their own healing journey.Discover what Brian is up to at Broken to Beloved and access resources Brian has cultivated and developed to support people recovering from spiritual abuse: https://www.brokentobeloved.org/https://www.instagram.com/brokentobeloved/Check out these books recommended by Brian:Try Softer by Aundi KolberA Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerThe Under Story by Lore Ferguson WilbertI Shouldn't Feel This Way by Alison CookRedeeming Power by Diane Langberg

With your co-hostesses: Pam Blizzard from RecoveredPeace.com Lyschel Burket from HopeRedefined.org Bonny Burns from StrongWives.com Help Us Help Others Listen now: Lyschel and Pam had other obligations, so I, Bonny will be speaking with a special guest today –  Dr. Barb Steffens! Barb is the retired founder of the association of partners of sex addicts trauma specialists, or APSATS. APSATS was a response to her empirically supported work that betrayed partners are traumatized by the discovery of their spouses problematic sexual behavior and should be supported through the lens of trauma, not co-dependence. Barb now focuses on helping better equip religious leaders to care for marriages that are struggling through the discovery of problematic sexual behavior. Today, our topic is “How Religious Leaders Can Serve Betrayed Couples Well.” We Will be Discussing: What is institutional trauma or institutional betrayal? What are some things that religious leaders could do to minimize spiritual trauma when they are working with a marriage that has deceptive sexuality? What are some obstacles that keep religious leaders from following up with a couple where the wife has newly discovered sexually problematic behavior? What are some resources that religious leaders could tap into to learn more? What hope can we leave our listeners? Resources mentioned in this show: “Your Sexually Addicted Spouse: How Partners Can Cope and Heal,” by Dr. Barb Steffens and Marsha Means. Why did God let this Happen? Assessing the Spiritual Impacts of Sexual Addiction on Intimate Female Partners: A Qualitative Investigation Betrayal Trauma Religious Leader Training Information (July, 2024, dates) “The Healing Church: What Churches Get Wrong about Pornography and How to Fix It,” By Sam Black. “Suffering and the Heart of God: How Trauma Destroys and Christ Restores,” by Dr. Diane Langberg. Coming November, 2024 – “When the Church Harms God's People: Becoming Faith Communities That Resist Abuse, Pursue Truth, and Care for the Wounded,” by Dr. Diane Langberg.

By Mary Lindow    WE LIVE IN A CORRUPT WORLD and therefore, have the “effects and affects” of that corruption ever influencing, ever tainting and ever wooing the flesh.  Let's look at the definition of a key word I am going to use in this crucial message. Plumbline: a tool that consists of a small, heavy object attached to a string or rope and that is used especially to see if something (such as a wall) is perfectly vertical or in alignment)     A plumbline is a simple but accurate tool used for determining whether or not something is perfectly vertical or upright. The Lord also used, and uses, a "plumbline," His Word, to determine how upright His people truly are in His sight. How upright they think they are, or how upright they proclaim themselves to be, means nothing to God.  "Behold, I WILL set a plumbline in the midst of My people".  -Amos 7:7    A PLUMBLINE SET OUT BY THE HAND OF GOD IS ONE THAT WE CAN ANCHOR OUR HEARTS TO.  It will always, always, ALWAYS, direct us to the truth in a matter; even if it requires pain, loss, persecution and perhaps death in areas we feel we may well have rights to.  It will also be a shield, a balm, a comfort and a teacher to those who will yield to the directive positioning of the Master.   “I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumbline.”  -Isaiah 28:17    I am by far not an expert on the subject of plumblines and righteousness, so take what I say in the light of one who at time gropes like a child in the dark, ever reaching for the hand of the ONE to lead me into a safe place filled with His Hope, His Mercy, His Light and Life.   LIFE – DISTRESS - AND PERSECUTION  I have found that in my life, distress and persecution do not feel like God's care being poured out on me. My heart is not immediately drawn to thanksgiving and gratefulness for the faithfulness of God on display as I cling to the battered pieces that look like potential “rafts” of hope, only to find out that many of them have gaping holes or slow leaks in them.  Rather, it feels like yet another hurt is being permanently woven into my tattered and war-torn soul. It seems as if another mound of questions are piling up and just waiting for an answer and a true solid REAL anchor of hope.    Dr. Diane Langberg, a Courageous, brilliant, humble servant of God and Counselor has deeply impressed me and my approach to caring for and ministering to others. She spoke the following words boldly regarding pain, abuse, and the suffering of traumatic events. Quoting Dr. Langberg, "In the midst of the trauma and suffering I have also seen the work of the Redeemer. He fills his people with his life and in ordinary ways, little by little; they bring his hope and healing to a ruined world. Traumatized and caregiver alike are transformed. He works both ways as they bend together to bring his redemption to the ravages of evil. I know this to be true for he has done so in me. I have learned many lessons over the years. I have listened to countless tragedies. Of one thing I am certain: unless we are gripped by the truths of the Cross of Christ in our own hearts and lives, the hope and power of the Cross will not pass from us to others. We cannot give what we do not have.  May love and obedience to the Son of Man so govern our personal lives that he can through us bring his life to this ruined planet." (End of quote)   I CAN REALLY CONNECT TO THE WRITER OF PSALM 42  He said “Why are you cast down, O my soul, and why are you in turmoil within me?” It's at those very times that the words of the Savior are so important. When we are down and in turmoil.  But, how do we connect the dots between what we know is true about God's faithfulness and what our hearts feel? When flipped and flung around by the waves, weary from crying and when no answer seems at hand, what IS the answer?  When my circumstances show many foes and tyrants rising up against me and my heart is prone to wander and fear, what hope is there of peace?  When my feelings start controlling my thoughts, how can I rest in God's promises?    AT THIS POINT… I HEAR THE “GASPS”,  and perhaps shocked comments of a few who are amazed that someone who "appears" to walk so fervently and intimately with the Lord would have such difficulties!  Well! Guess what? I do struggle, I do hurt, and yes I do doubt when I have been side swiped or “rammed” by skilled cons and those who, although may have the appearance of godliness and offered friendship or fellowship, end up having private and evil agendas behind their well placed and planned schemes. And boy oh boy! Those skilled players know the wicked art of wounding the heart and causing people to reel in pain!    BUT, THERE IS ONE WHO FULLY SEES IT ALL  The main skill in the issue of dealing with life as a spiritual person, is to know how to handle yourself when things not only crush and grind your heart, but what to do with the anguish and toll of their aftermath.  We have to get ourselves into a place where we hear clearly again.  We need have to address ourselves, preach to ourselves, and ask questions about ourselves.  We must say to our soul: "Why are you cast down –Why are you so anxious and lacking in peace?"  We must urge ourselves, and say ‘Hope in God' – instead of remaining in this paralyzed, aching state!”    AND THEN WE MUST TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER We must go on to remind ourselves just “Who" God is, and what God is, and what God has done, and what God has promised that he Himself said that He would do.  Having done that we can stand up and sing out strongly, defying the torment of the soul, and resist other people's wicked tongues and arrogance, and refuse to go along with the devil and the whole world, and say: ‘Hope in God; for I shall again praise him, my salvation and my God.”    The hope and promise of the fairness of God's justice when dealing with the hurtful things and presumptions of others gives me the confidence to know that God will never turn away from me in my need. No matter how they seem to prosper in the short term, wicked men and women will ultimately pay for their sins, in this life or the next. Jesus died to meet my greatest hardships and sorrows for me, and I need to preach this to myself every day.   His power is greater than my weariness and suffering.  The comforting and instruction that comes from simply running to feed upon His word instead of the toxic poison of the replaying of trauma reminds me that what Jesus has done is strong enough for my soul to rejoice in and to be set into a place where it can rest and regroup, gaining a healthy perspective about what to give out to others and what is simply… …. To be enjoyed by the Lord Himself.    THE NATURAL IMPULSES OF MANKIND ARE SINFUL AND DECEITFUL!  Human willpower alone will never be able to change this.  We need God's help to truly change our hearts.  REMEMBER. You cannot change the heart of anyone else either.  If you try to, you will feel the bite of stinging venom or be laughed out of a room. Only the power of the conviction of the Holy Spirit can permeate and get around the jam-packed hardhearted egos of the self sufficient and bitter.  Jeremiah 17:9 says that the human heart is deceitful in all things and is even beyond cure!   We must be cautious and wise in reproving and warning such types of people about their bad behaviors and wicked actions where there seems to be no appearance or hope of change and where there is danger of experiencing great and heart wrecking retaliation and slander.    THESE TYPES TRAMPLE THE WARNINGS AND URGING FOR REPENTANCE  and humbling of the heart under their feet, and turn again and slash at you, despising the warnings that are “tearfully and fearfully” given, and often hurt the persons who give them, either by words or deeds.    "Don't waste what is holy on people who are unholy.  Don't throw your pearls to pigs!  They will trample the pearls,  then turn and attack you.”  -Matthew 7:6    “GIVE ME THE FACTS MA'AM JUST THE FACTS” I remember that phrase from a TV show called “Dragnet”. The detective would not allow the details of the case to be skewed by any assumptions or pontificating from those he interviewed. He stoically and firmly demanded only the facts.  And so, here are the “facts” about the heart of a good man or woman. 1.) The good man or woman:  Brings good things out of the good stored up in his/her heart.   And the facts about an evil man or woman.    2.) The evil man/woman,  Brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his/her heart. For out of the overflow of his or her heart his or her mouth speaks. -Luke 6:45    THE FRAILTY, BRIEFNESS, AND INSECURITY OF LIFE  The frailty, briefness, and insecurity of life should hold down the vanity and presumptuous confidence of all of our projects and boasting about future greatness and bragging rights! We are always to depend on the will and leading of God.    OUR TIMES ARE NOT IN OUR OWN HANDS, BUT ARE INSTEAD IN THE TIMING OF GOD. Our heads may be filled with cares and plans for ourselves, or our families, or our friends; but Divine intervention often throws our plans into bewilderment. All we have in mind, and all we do, should be with a humble and deep dependence on God. It is foolish, and it is hurtful, to boast of trendy “latest happening” things and prospective projects, and it will bring great disappointment and will prove destructive to relationships and meaningful help to others in the end.    “For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions.  These are not from the Father, but are from this world.”  -1 John 2:16   LISTEN KINDLY - BEFORE SPEAKING YOUR THOUGHTS  People don't need a lecture on the meaning of suffering or to have a barrage of scriptures “machine-gunned” at them as a reprimand for sharing their moment of grief or struggle! (Especially when their hearts are breaking, weary of the battle and if they are fatigued.) Job could have done without some of the self-righteous answers that came from his “well-meaning” friends. All of the answers could have even been true, but Job didn't need to hear any of them.  He needed their love, not their value judgments.  In fact, it appears as if God judged THEM for trying to offer simple solutions to things that were beyond their comprehension. They had never walked in the loss he was in anguish over.    WHEN WE SUFFER UNJUSTLY WE HAVE A MAJOR CHOICE TO MAKE How will we respond? We can feel sorry for ourselves (and understandably so, for a while), become bitter and cynical, get drawn into a war of words, or even become mixed up in a major conflict. On the other hand, we can take our suffering to the cross and allow our pain to draw us into a deeper place of understanding of what Jesus went though in his sufferings. This does not remove the pain, but does help us to know what to do with our hurt.    THIS IS THE 'FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS (Philippians 3:10), one of the gateways to closeness with God and the release of his power in our lives. The weight of heartbreak shared with a loving friend cuts it in half. When the burden is shared with many friends, we can cope with almost anything. We never feel more revitalized than when a friend loves us enough to walk with us in our pain. Not lecture us.    The apostle Paul wrote these words to the church in Corinth:  "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God". -1 Corinthians 1.3-4    SOMETIMES GOD GETS INVOLVED WITH DIRECT MIRACLES,  Giving supernatural strength to those in need. But for the most part, he depends on us, his people, to do his work in the world. We love each other, work for healing, and suffer with those who suffer.  The next time you see a friend who is suffering, Jesus may just invite you to be the warm embrace! We comfort each other with the comfort we have received in Christ. And when we do, we become the Body of Christ and he receives the glory!    THE BIBLE IS CLEAR!  We are to bear one another's burdens.  We are to comfort others as Christ has given comfort to us.  Your hard time becomes my hard time.  We join hands in the journey.  When you succeed, I succeed.  When you suffer, I suffer. But we do it together. We share it together.  And we do it, not so much in our wisdom or our words, but in our availability, our understanding, and through our presence.    THAT'S WHAT FELLOWSHIP IS ALL ABOUT!  But not “bland” fellowship. It is CHRISTIAN fellowship. It is the business of burden bearing. Authentic CHRISTIAN fellowship says that when you need me . . . I'll be there. Support in suffering is at the core of what it means to share life together in Christ. The word for "comfort” is the same root word as the name Jesus used to describe one of the functions of the Holy Spirit in our lives (Paraclete). “I will be a comforter, one who comes alongside to give help.” And so as God comes alongside you, now you are able to come alongside another. As the Comforter is at work within you, so you also can be of comfort to those around you.    WE ARE CALLED TO BEAR ONE ANOTHER'S BURDENS.  To mourn with those who mourn. To be a follower of Jesus means to come alongside people who are hurting and find ways to help them walk even through the valley of the shadow of death. We are called to do this, as the word of God and care of God is shared with the intention of stirring, plowing up hardened hearts, creating a place for repentance and challenging saints to hope again.  I know and believe that as we learn again as believers, to care, to truly listen and to hope fully again, that the sweet and heavy weight of HIS Glory will be made known and will manifest in unfettered and uncontrolled waves of worship and spontaneous adoration of the King of Heaven.    MY FRIENDS IN CHRIST… …LISTEN TO THESE NEXT WORDS I SHARE WITH YOU VERY CAREFULLY.   Toleration of sin, pretense, and crookedness do not reveal the character of God, even if they bear his name. Arrogance is never godly. Covering up sin is never godly. Abuse of power is never godly. Shepherds who feed on sheep are abusive. Leadership that preserves and protects the system, rather than the people, turns the house of God into a safe place for predators. Exposure brings hope, because it brings the cancer to the light. To hide sin by cover-up or silent complicity is spiritual abuse.   HE REALLY DOES KNOW WHAT HE WANTS Let's focus on bowing low and seeking His heart and plans in what matters to Him. Indeed, HE is the Plumbline. Jesus demonstrated in the flesh what a human being is to be like who bears God's image. He pursued the vulnerable, protected the little ones, and poured out compassion on the least of these. Any dismissal of abuse, any baptizing of evil, any cover-up or denial is nothing like Him. Any discarding of the least of these or trampling of the vulnerable is an assault on God Himself—no matter the spiritual words used as an excuse.   AGAIN, I will share another phenomenal insight from Dr. DIANE LANGBERG regarding this matter. She said these words in an article; “You see, this Jesus had a passion for redeeming. For those who have been abused, and are suffering from its debilitating aftereffects, listen hard. There is hope for you-hope for healing and transformation. I know; I come to you from the frontlines and have seen it happen countless times. It takes courage, hard work, and there is no quick fix. Such redemption was Jesus' master passion. This God came to seek and redeem what has been lost. We must acknowledge and tell the truth about these things. Great damage is being done to God's sheep, in his name. He weeps over such leaders and the sheep they harm. Be watchful. Recognize coercive and manipulative behavior. CALL IT BY ITS RIGHT NAME WHEN SOMEONE IN POWER USES SPIRITUAL WORDS AND IDEAS TO SILENCE, CONTROL, AND INTIMIDATE. Be discerning about those who hold power—including yourself. Do not be deceived.  May we, with Daniel, call out to God: “O Lord, hear! O Lord forgive. O Lord listen and act. For your own sake do not delay, because your church and your people are called by your name” (Dan. 9:19).     SO FRIEND. WHAT HAVE YOU LOST? Your voice? The truth, drowned out by lies? Your life and its vibrancy, its strength, its giftedness? Your hope? God has said He is making all things new... and that includes you. Devastation is, bit by bit, redeem-able. I know. I have had a front-row seat to God's redemptive power in my life, and for the record, one of the people He has done redemptive work in, is me. My work with victims in ministry as well as teaching in schools has revealed to me who God is. Evil can be transformed in the life in which it occurred. That work is also redemptive in the one who walks alongside the broken vessel. Evil is then twice crushed. May the Church of Jesus Christ repent of her pursuit of human externals and bend down, listen, and walk alongside trauma, abuse, racism, hatred, and a blind eye as did her Lord.  In doing so, we will bring joy to the heart of the Father.   I'D LIKE YOU TO PRAY WITH ME BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, I am sure that this touched several hearts, and maybe even made some fear come into some of you who are hiding things or who have abused others, and it's time to come clean. It's time to get the help that you need.   So, I'd like to pray with all of you listening today.  I ask you to stop and be still. Position your heart before the Lord as we bring this to him.   Prayer  God, I ask in Jesus' name, that you comfort, strengthen and encourage all who are hurting deeply right now and are going through so much pain and heartache.  Don't allow them to give up in the heat of the battle.  Let them feel your arms wrapping around them and your love overflowing and filling them up. Lord, I will pray often and I know that you will hear my voice, even when I speak to You in my silent thoughts.  To You, I am crying out and my prayers are now before You.  Father, I give to You my problems, I do not want them.  Father, please restore them to You. I know that you have compassion for your children. Father, show them your ways and teach them your paths. Lead them in your truth and teach them you are the God of our salvation and on you we will wait.  Protect them from the evils of this life and guide them through all of their days. Father, thank You for hearing my prayer Father and for considering and for having compassion on all who hear and read these words, and all who hurt, in this troubled world we live in.  Keep them in the center of Your love.  In Jesus' Name~ Amen    I KNOW THAT THIS WAS MOST LIKELY A DIFFICULT AND PROBABLY PAINFUL PODCAST FOR SOME OF YOU, BUT IT'S A FREEING PODCAST.   It brings out into the light the reality that we need to speak up when we see harm being done and we need to get help when we have been harmed so that the stopping of the sorrow when the grief in the trauma can begin and a new pathway can be created in our lives. I   I look forward to sharing my next podcast with you! I do want to thank those you are so kind and so gracious. I have a few very faithful individuals who do support and partner with me to produce these podcasts and I want to let you know I'm always amazed at how many places these go to, because I don't really do a lot of promoting! They just get picked up by other podcast groups and it goes out all across the world, so somewhere in this, the Holy Spirit is using it to glorify the name of Jesus, and for that I am so grateful that he would find something in me that is worthy of sharing. So, thank you again to those of you who help me.   I look forward to being with all of you again and in the meantime, stand firm, call upon the name of the Lord, and tell the truth, in Jesus name. Goodbye for now!   Duplication and sharing of this message is welcomed provided that complete article, podcast link and website information for Mary Lindow is included. Thank You Copyright © 2024 " THE MESSENGER " ~ Mary Lindow www.marylindow.com https://marylindow.podbean.com Your Gracious Support and Donations Are So Very Helpful And Assist Mary In Publishing Her Teaching Podcasts and Audio Messages. THANK YOU! Please go to PAYPAL to donate or support this blog: Donate to the tax-deductible ministry name of: paypal.me/mlindow     mary lindow @mlindow Mary Lindow - His Beloved Ministries Inc. Or You Can Mail a Check or Cashiers Check to: His Beloved Ministries INC PO Box 1253 Eastlake CO 80614

Host Curtis Chang sits down for a gripping conversation with author and frequent Good Faith guest Nancy French to discuss her compelling new memoir "Ghosted: An American Story." Nancy opens up about wrestling with dark family and church secrets, shedding light on the complexities of transracial adoption and the challenges of losing one's community. She explores the power of being truly known and finding resilience in an unexpected romance that would also show her the enduring hope found in the cross of Jesus.   Bring The After Party course to your church or small group!    Join the Redeeming Babel Team! https://redeemingbabel.org/we-are-hiring/   Pre-order The After Party Book by Curtis Chang & Nancy French   Order your copy of Ghosted: An American Story by Nancy French   RESOURCES: Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment   Dr. Diane Langberg's books to better train abuse counselors 

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/3TQsIWujVnI Once you've experienced trauma, how do you heal? What should you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? In this edition of The Roys Report, discover answers to these questions and more in an in-depth talk from professional psychologist, Dr. Phil Monroe. It comes from his recent (and second) appearance at the Restore Conference. And you'll hear the wisdom and gentle demeanor that have made him a favorite among attendees. All too often, people who are traumatized don't know how to find the help they need. They may end up in the care of someone who wasn't qualified or able to help them. Or, in some cases, the person who was supposed to help them with trauma actually made their trauma worse. As a trusted voice in the survivor community and an expert in trauma, Dr. Monroe gives practical, actionable steps about what to do—and not to do—in one's healing journey. He talks about the ways trauma hinders all aspects of oneself. “You need to take care of your body—it's the only one you have,” he says. Healing from trauma isn't a journey anyone wanted to be on. Yet Dr. Monroe gives each of us strategies, tools, and even grace to take the time and energy needed for the path ahead. Guests Phil Monroe Philip Monroe, PsyD, is a psychologist who leads Langberg, Monroe & Associates, a private clinical practice in the greater Philadelphia area. He is the Taylor Visiting Professor of Counseling at Missio Seminary where he and Dr. Diane Langberg founded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute. Learn more at philipmonroe.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, PHIL MONROE PHIL MONROE  00:04 Once you've experienced trauma, how do you heal? What do you look for in a counselor? What kind of therapy is right for you? And how do you take care of yourself as you begin your healing journey? Welcome to The Roys Report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys, and on this podcast you're going to hear a talk from our last RESTORE conference by Dr. Phil Monroe on the do's and don'ts of healing. Phil is a trusted voice in the survivor community. He leads the counseling practice begun by Dr. Diane Langberg, a popular author and globally recognized trauma expert. Phil is an expert on trauma as well and leads the trauma healing Institute at the American Bible Society, and he's a repeat speaker at RESTORE and someone whose wisdom and gentle demeanor has made him a favorite at the conference. But I especially appreciated his talk at the last RESTORE. So often I hear from people who knew they were traumatized and needed help. But sadly, they didn't know how to find the help that they needed. They ended up in the care of someone who wasn't qualified or able to help them. Or in some cases, the person who was supposed to help actually made their trauma worse. So, this is an incredibly important topic and one I'm eager for all of you to hear. Julie Roys  01:18 But first I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys  02:21 Well, again, the talk you're about to hear is from Dr. Phil Monroe from our last restore conference in October. Here's his message on the do's and don'ts of healing from trauma. PHIL MONROE  02:32 It's good to be here with you. And it is good to follow Carson and LoriAnne. Thank you for telling us your story. Thank you for shining light. It's costly when you tell your story. Even when you tell your story in front of a group of safe people, it's costly. And I bet some of you too, have been telling your story on the sides here of the room for coffee over lunch, and you've been telling parts of it. And you might find yourself at the end of this weekend exhausted. That's normal. That's what happens to us when we exert the energy to speak and to speak the unspeakable. So, I encourage you ,have compassion, take care of you. Think about what you're going to be putting into your body and what you're going to do the rest of this weekend when this conference is over. Because you will need recovery time. We all do. I also encourage you when the videos come out, play back Dr. Lena's, Carson's, and Lori Anne's parts where they're talking about how they recovered. Your journey will look different. It will be different; you have different stories, you have different guides, you have different geographies to traverse. But there's goodness in there to hear again from them, what it's been taking for them to heal, what did they need? What helped? This is the question that I get asked a lot and for why I came up here today. PHIL MONROE  04:19 How do we know if we're doing this journey right? This journey of healing it is a journey. Trauma is a wound that affects every part of your life. It hinders your ability to relate to your own self, much less your family, your friends, your community, and your faith. It takes a long time to heal. And it feels like this journey that we never wanted to be on that we never asked for, and we're in this foreign land that doesn't make any sense. And we're both somehow equally alone on this journey, but with a whole bunch of people on the sidelines yelling advice to us. And some of it might be helpful. A lot of it probably isn't. Right? So, this journey that you never wanted to be on takes energy and time. And so, let's take a few moments to just talk about, how do we know if we're doing it right? What is it supposed to be like this journey of healing? Carson talked this morning about, you know, doing it and feeling like he was making progress., and then going back down in the hole, I think LoriAnne said the same thing. This is what it feels like, we go a step forward, and 10 back. This is the healing journey. It's normal, it's natural. And you are doing it right. PHIL MONROE  05:52 I want to give you a little bit of a preview about where we're going. Well, I'll talk about a few things, a few hooks to hang some ideas on. We'll look at some of the myths that we believe that kind of interrupt our healing journey, we'll look at some of the red flags, I'll add to some of the things that LoriAnne said, some red flags about those helpers, those guides along the way that we should give pause to and consider whether or not that's the right person for us. And then end with some ideas about all the therapies that are out there that you've heard, and what you might do in order to try to figure out what's the right thing for me. Again, I'm not going to be able to tell you what that right thing is for you. But if we have some ideas, and things that can help us make that decision, then we might be in a better place. PHIL MONROE  06:47 So, let's start with three things that you can hang all of what we're going to talk on, on what it means to be on the healing journey, three hooks that you need. These are three things that no matter what model you use, no matter what kind of guide you're looking for, you probably need in your life. The very first thing is to take care of your body, to take care of you. Trauma affects every part of your life. It affects your body, your mind, your soul, your spirit, every bit of you has been impacted. And your number one activity is to take care of you. And to do it with compassion and curiosity. I'm going to repeat that a couple of times during our talk here, because I actually find it rather rare in our Christian environments. Somehow self-compassion sounds like self-ish. And curiosity seems dangerous, because we might ask  unlight questions, and we might come up with some answers of things that help that others think no, you can't do that. You need to take care of this body of yours. It's the only one you get. This has come to my attention more recently in the last couple of weeks, I hurt my back. You've seen me with a cane around here. This is a violation of my pride. So, I didn't bring it up here. But I needed it. And what happened is, I thought I was younger than I was, and I carried around a heavy backpack for a lot of miles, and then paid the price a few days later. What happened to me was, my muscles went into contraction, and I was immobilized. And even as I began to the healing journey, and getting physical therapy and medications and understanding what was going on with me, I didn't want to move, everything locked up. Any movement could bring that spasm back. And I needed guides and friends to say, you know, you can relax those other muscles that aren't working right now. I had to tell myself this over and over again. I had to think about, what does my body need? My instinct was to actually not move in order to not hurt. But I needed to remember no actually, movement helps. As one of my friends says, motion is lotion. It keeps you moving so you can move more. Right? So, this is the small little trauma that I experienced that lasted for about a week and I'm still recovering from it. But imagine if your body has been impacted by decades of trauma, how much more compassion we need to have and curiosity? It didn't do me any good to beat up my muscles and to tell them they shouldn't be this way. Right? And it won't do you any good to beat yourself up and think you should be better than you are. So, compassion and curiosity, finding out what helps it. PHIL MONROE  10:05 Similarly to this and related to this is what LoriAnne was talking about finding stability in a triggering world. Finding stability is your job number one on repeat, how do I find stability? You know that first stage that she was talking about? safety and stabilization? it never ends, it's not a stage that you do, and then you stop doing. You continue it. And even in a great weekend like this, where we're talking and we're naming truth, and you're getting vocabulary that makes sense for you, and helps you understand your story and helps you communicate that to other people. Right? You still need to find stability, you still need safety, you need to think about the things that helped me come back to ground. LoriAnne demonstrated this, in through the nose, hold, out through the mouth. You're communicating to your body that you're here. And that you can remember to breathe. PHIL MONROE  11:13 I'm pretty sure a bunch of you forgot to breathe during the last session. You held your breath. It's normal, it's what we do. But we can also remind ourselves to breathe, right? So, we take care of our bodies with curiosity and compassion, and we keep finding ground, we look for that stability. This is our main task. And it's not because you have some disability. It's because you're coming back to truth, you're coming back to present, you're coming back to the reality of where your body is at this present time. So those two things, no matter what you do, you'll be doing. And the third thing that you're going to do with this as well, is to begin your story again. Somebody took your story, hijacked it, told you things that weren't true, gave you false vocabulary, told you that you were the problem. That's what DARVO is, right? You're the problem. But in fact, actually, you're not. And so, each day, you begin your story again. It's the work of writing and rewriting the narrative of you. PHIL MONROE  12:31 Again, this can sound very egocentric, but it is the job actually, that God gave you. And he gave Adam and Eve the job of naming things as they were. He gives this to you too, to name things, and to know who you are. So, no matter all the things that we're saying here this weekend, and the things that might be helpful to you, don't forget these things – take care of you, find ground and stability, and keep on with the naming of things as they are. And starting your story again. It has not ended, there is a chapter that you're in. And we don't know how that chapter is going to end. But we look for it with compassion, and curiosity. PHIL MONROE  13:17 Now, these are the things that we want to do. But there are some barriers and boundaries that can get in the way, right? And some of those come from us, and some of those come from other people. So, I want to name these so that you have some thoughts about what are the things that could get in the way of my recovery of this journey and sort of take me down the wrong path? And so, let's name a few of these myths. PHIL MONROE  13:43 The first myth that I want to highlight is that we have some unhelpful views on what healing actually is. Right? And one of those unhelpful views is that healing should happen, and it should be all done and in the past, and that there should be no scars and no impacts in the future. I hear this over and over from my clients from other people who wonder, why is it that I still have triggers? You know, something happened today. I got a phone call. I got an email from somebody from my past, and I didn't know what was in it, and I had that reaction. Carson mentioned this morning, something can happen, and he might spend a few hours being unable to work, he's is transported to some previous experience. This, my friends, is part of the scars that we bear. It doesn't mean it will always happen or at the same level of intensity. But you are changed. Imagine this you are an elite athlete, and you have a career at that level. and you get a knee injury. Some of us might get a knee injury, and we might get it repaired and we get back out there and we're playing again. But we're probably not playing with the same vigor and vim that we used to have, we have to do it differently. Other of us, the knee injury is so severe that it's career-ending for being an elite athlete, and we have to navigate into other careers, other identities, right? So, one of the myths that we carry though is I should be healed, I shouldn't be bothered, and I should be able to talk about trauma without having a reaction. My friends, this is not going to happen. You know things that you can't unknow. In fact, if you did unknow them, you might be at greater risk to be harmed again. These are part of the treasures in dark places. And you bring those scars with you in your body. So, check with yourself. Do I have somewhat helpful views about what healing is? Let me add to these unhelpful views of healings. Healing means no grief. I'm going to tell you that grief and joy can commingle. Grief and happiness can commingle, grief and healing will commingle. A loss is a loss is a loss. Most of you in the stories I've heard have lost community. And when you come to certain times of the year, certain church traditions, certain things like this, you feel that grief deeply. That is not a sign that you haven't healed. It's a sign that you have grief and grief needs space to breathe. So again, watch about some of these unhelpful views of healing. PHIL MONROE  13:46 How about another unhelpful view of healing? My faith should be exactly the same as it was. My friends, your faith is different. Read the Psalms, you will see the psalmist contending with things. I used to go out in front of the procession Psalm 42. In the procession, I used to be out at the front leading the way to worship. And you can see in the Psalm he's saying, Not only am I not leading the way, but I have people accusing me and attacking me on the process. Where are you God? Well, this psalmist has a new worship tradition, lament. And lament is just as active and real and God-oriented as whatever great worship song you used to sing in a large community. Your faith has been changed, maybe for the better. But with scars and grief, but healing does not mean it looks like it used to. PHIL MONROE  17:45 And lastly, one more myth about our healing is we sometimes slow our healing down when we fall prey to the belief that God wants me to suffer so that he could show me his goodness. Unfortunately, we hear all that outside. But we also sometimes take this in. And I think there's some part of us that wants like, there's got to be meaning here. If I can just know that something good that God is giving me is coming, then I can tolerate all this. And I'm telling you, God's heart is broken and angry for what you're going through. He is enraged by it. And he says in Malachi 4, that you will be like calves leaping coming out of the stall on the ashes of those oppressors. That's going to happen. The belief that somehow the suffering that you're going through is God's wonderful plan for your life, is damaging. Now will good things come out of hard things? They often do, and many of you are testaments to that. The fact that you're here is a testament to that. PHIL MONROE  19:02 So, there are some of the myths. Let me talk about some of the red flags that can get in the way of our healing journey as well. Very similar to that if you have guides and helpers who want to make everything in your life spiritual, everything happening having a spiritual answer to it, that's all wrapped up with a bow, guess what? Run! Job had friends like this. Job had friends like this and look at what God has to say about them at the end of that book. So, when you have guides that are wanting to make everything spiritual and give a nice happily ever after ending to that, then that might not be the right person for you. Coupled with that, when you articulate things about your faith that they don't like, how do they respond? Do they want to correct you? fix it? challenge you? Not everything I say about my faith is correct, something a should be challenged. Maybe you're hearing some now, but how they challenge that matters, right? When you feel like you're not allowed to think something, believe something, feel something, that's a sign this person might not be the right person for you. PHIL MONROE  20:18 Another red flag, how focused are they on the techniques, the new technology? We'll talk about that in a minute about the various counseling models, but how focused they are on doing stuff to you? If somebody seems way too interested in doing some new thing they learn to you, maybe that might not be the right person for you. And if you resist that, or you are flooded by what they're doing, you are overwhelmed by it, do they notice? does it matter to them? You know, as a therapist, I can tell you, I've made a lot of mistakes in my career. Hopefully, I can see that they're happening, or I'm told afterwards, and we have a corrective moment. Whereas I become the student again and learn what helps them. So, when somebody is doing something to you, or with you in a session, or telling you something and you're not responding well to it, does it matter to them? Are they curious about you? Do they have compassion? Or are they irritable, defensive, explaining, talking too much, telling you why what they're doing is actually the right thing, and that you should be thankful? These are signs that you might not have the right person. Along with that, is there a pressure to progress? Why aren't you getting better faster, so that I can, as a therapist feel better about myself? Unfortunately, I love therapists, I am one I've been one for a long time, I supervise a bunch of great therapists. But I can tell you that not all of us are in this for the right reasons. And you can see that when somebody needs their clients to get better, faster, so that they feel better. How much do they talk about themselves? another red flag. If at the end of the session, you didn't get to talk about the most important things that you came to talk about, that's something you want to talk to them about, and see if they're open to changing how they do things. PHIL MONROE  22:24 And finally, last red flag, boundary crossings. You know, I've talked to many victims who are being helped by someone. And then they're also then telling me oh, and by the way, I'm managing their books, I'm helping to write their books, I am helping in their practice, I am doing things. We call that boundary crossings. Look, therapists are people too, and they need friends, but not you. You need friends who aren't your therapist. So here are some red flags, some myths that get into the way of their healing. PHIL MONROE  23:12 So, let's move at this point into talking a little bit more about some of the essential items that you do need. We gave three hooks at the beginning. remember? taking care of your body, right, the first one second one, finding ground and stability, and meaning making, rewriting your story again and again. Now let's flesh that out a little bit. What will that look like? And as we end, at the end of this, we'll be talking about some of those models that might be used. But again, the focus is not so much on the models, but the DNA, the kinds of things that show up in a particular form of therapy and healing activity. Like I said, I was going to repeat this – compassion and curiosity is an essential item that you take on this journey. I want to ask you, think for a moment, when you're struggling, and then if you're not traumatized, you love somebody who is, and you see them struggling. How often do you hear self-critical language come out of their mouth? What do you feel when you say those things? Defeated? discouraged? ashamed? hopeless? It's interesting that we go there. It's understandable that we go there. Because that's the message that we are often given either implicitly or explicitly that you're the problem. I said this last year here that when we are traumatized, we have two enduring questions that we ask over and over again, why? and how do I get out of this hell? And unfortunately when we're traumatized, we come to the same answer for both questions, why? Because there's something wrong with me. And how do I get out of this hell? And why am I not getting out of it? Because there's something wrong with me. Right? So, compassion and curiosity need to be your friends. How can you begin to encourage that? Plant those seeds, ask your friends to look for that as well. They don't need to give you long lectures about it. They just need to help you identify what is true about you. What is true about your body? What helps you feel just a little bit better? When you're feeling overwhelmed by trauma, nothing feels like it will help you feel better. When I was in the throes of my biggest spasms, nothing seemed to help. But you know what? small movements did, and I had to accept that, you know what? it really is getting a little bit better. How about for you? What are those little things that only made me make it better 5%? Can you do it? Can you do it again? And can you begin to make that list of things that care for you? Maybe for you it's some music. Maybe for you, it's just going outside and looking at a leaf. What helps you just a little bit? PHIL MONROE  26:27 Compassion and curiosity are necessary. It means not beating yourself up during or after something happened. Any more than you'd beat yourself up for having a migraine or back injury. Right? It's exhausting to do this work. And it's harder when other people around us are encouraging us to think less of ourselves. So, part of your compassion and curiosity may be distancing from some of those voices. Second thing you need with you on this journey is community. That's been said multiple times. And I agree with LoriAnne Thompson as well that you also need a community outside of social media and digital community. There is some good in that community, as also we see lots of bad. Sometimes we feel heard and understood, we read somebody else's story, and that helps us understand something about ourselves. That's good. But that needs to be highly limited. You need real people that you can see who you can touch if you want to and allow them to touch you if you want them to. And who will listen to you say the same story, like Carson said, hundreds of times. You need this community. These are people who are committed to listening, rather than talking, cheerleader more than coach, right? Together, you and that community are going to be looking for life outside of trauma. That means you're going for a walk together, that means you're taking in a play, that means you're listening to something, you're exploring some creative arts. This community is essential. No one heals alone. You weren't designed to be alone, and the damage was done in community. So, you're going to need to find it. But it might be a community of two, rather than the big community that we have lost, right? PHIL MONROE  28:28 Find a therapist and a professional. Thank you, LoriAnne, for saying that. I do believe in licensed mental health professionals. I also know that those people aren't always the right for you. So, find someone who will be your guide who goes at your pace. Your pace is the most essential thing that matters here, not their pace. If you're going too fast, they may ask you to slow down. And I love the image that you gave us, the slow down. But maybe we could say it a little quieter a little bit more gently. It's okay to slow down. We want to get to the end really quickly. But oftentimes we cannot, but your pace matters. When you ask to slow down or not do something, how do they respond? Do they pressure you? Do they withdraw? Right? Do they give you too many words explaining themselves? Or are they curious about what's happening in you right now and what might help right now? And one more thing about that professional. If you notice that they label your resistance and your reticence and your tendency is not to do something as refusal as a bad thing resistance, this is a concern. Your resistance is part of your healing. You see, trauma takes your voice and your power away from you. And you learning to use it and your no is essential. Maybe later you'll say yes to something that you said No today, it doesn't matter. So, watch out if your professional labels you as a resistor. Take that as a badge of goodness and find someone else. PHIL MONROE  30:25 Two more little points here before we talk about models, but one limit yourself to others exposure, others trauma. We've had a lot of exposure to different trauma here. This is good for weekend, it's not good for everyday life. With a little bit tongue-in-cheek, sometimes you might not want to read Julie's next post. You know, it's really good, somebody needs to read it, many people need to read it, but you might not need to read it today. When we listen to other people's pain, it triggers our own reactions. And then we need to take care of ourselves. So, find your right pace and the right amount. And finally, finding life outside of trauma means finding all the opposites to trauma and making sure they're in your life. If you had chaos, find order. If you had ugliness find beauty. If you had silence, find voice, right? What are the opposites that you need to have in your life on a regular basis? PHIL MONROE  31:25 So, with that, let me take the last few minutes to talk about these various models. If you have thought about going to see a therapist, you've probably heard of all sorts of different models and ways of treating trauma. Right? You might have heard things about the difference between licensed and unlicensed biblical counseling, Christian counseling. You might have had things that are focused on I don't know cognitive-behavior therapy, trauma-focused cognitive behavior therapy, DBT dialectical behavior therapy, prolonged exposure PE, EMDR, Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, tapping, CPT, cognitive processing, brain spotting, narrative exposure therapy or NET, ACT, EMDR PFA, debriefing, somatic psychotherapies, neurofeedback. Or if you're really on the cutting edge, you're hearing all about ketamine, or transcranial brain stimulation, right? Acupressure, yoga, art, exercise, the list is long. And it's overwhelming and confusing to those of us who are just looking for something to help. With this long list, you probably hear people said, This one here was a miracle for me. I'm so much better. And at the same time, you probably heard someone else say that same one didn't work for me. It leaves us confused, doesn't it? wondering, what can we do? Well, you can do a lot of work on Google, I'm not going to do that here. Some of them have a lot more scientific efficacy behind them. I will also warn you that sometimes when you get a disciple of a particular model, they promise a whole lot more than the original creators and the researchers of it did. So, watch out for somebody who has one single thing that will solve all your problems. It probably won't. PHIL MONROE  33:15 What do you need to see? And how might you process the information to find the right person? The first thing I want to say to you is interview your therapist. If you don't have one, and you're going to find one, interview them. Take that first session and make sure you have time to ask them questions or even before the first one. Ask them about what model do they approach? How do they deal with the different kinds of trauma out there? Who do they read? Who do they look for to help educate them? That doesn't mean they are as good as those people they read, but it means something to you about what kind of background do they have? What do they know? And if they get resistant to you asking these questions, thank them and find someone else. PHIL MONROE  34:04 When you get into a treatment, here are some things that you might see in all of those ones that I listed, that are essential to be there. A significant focus on grounding, calming, stabilizing. This is not just something you do in the first couple of sessions, and then move on to the deep dark part of your stories. It is something that needs to be a part of every session you do. And in fact, if you have someone who wants to get into your trauma story, and leaves you right up to the 59th Minute of a 60-minute session, and let you go out bleeding, so to speak, and not giving you time to recover in that session, that's also a little bit problematic on our end, right? So, in your sessions you should see things that are about grounding and calming, and finding things that work for you. Obviously, there will be some exposure to the trauma story, right? And when that happens, do they leave you triggered, and distressed and overwhelmed? Or do they bring you back to the surface and back to the present in a way that helps you calm yourself again? There will be a narrative focus about who are you? Who is God? Who is the world? What are your strengths? things like that. There'll be grief work. These are all parts of almost every one of these therapies that you have. PHIL MONROE  35:31 But most important, not the model, but the interactions that you have with this therapist. Do you, at the end of the session, feel heard? Do you at the end of the session feel a little bit understood? Did you talk about the things that were important to you? Do you feel a growing sense of trust, even while you're afraid of trusting again? Those are the messages that you want to listen to in your own body. Your therapist can't do your healing for you. And they can't know always how much pain you're in. So, if you feel like this is not something we can talk about in the session, that could be a problem. So, look at those interactions that you're having with them. Do they judge you? Do they get angry with you? dissatisfied with your resistance? Or do they actually take joy in saying this is great, I'm so glad you're speaking up? What would work for you now? PHIL MONROE  36:41 Friends, this journey that you're on, the one that you never wanted to be on, is here in front of us, you're not going to go back to your old way of life. There'll come a day when you'll be glad for that. But right now, it might be hard. It's going to take time. This is your grief. But journeys do also bring us to new friends, bring us to new vistas, to new observations, to seeing a little bit of our aliveness in a new way. I think you heard that from Carson and LoriAnne capture that snapshot. You know, Psalm 19 tells us, the heavens declare the glory of God, the sky's display his craftsmanship. The psalmist is saying creation reminds me of God's goodness. In fact, it says that they speak without words and their message is clear. Creation. You are God's creation. You speak a message even when you don't speak,. Your presence here speaks that message. Never forget. And never let anybody else tell you anything else. But you declare the glory of God, even when you're in a pool of your own tears. Julie Roys  38:02 What an affirming message and that's so true. So often when we've experienced trauma, we feel broken and damaged. And we are but so was our Savior. And our brokenness doesn't make us any less beautiful in some ways, especially as God begins to heal what's broken. Those wounds in our history become part of what's especially beautiful about us. Well, again, that message is from our last RESTORE conference, and we'll be announcing the next RESTORE soon. So be listening for that. And as I'm sure you're aware, many groups charge for conference talks like the one you just heard, but we've decided to make them available free of charge because we believe the content is so necessary for the restoration and health of the church. Yet producing these videos costs money as did bringing in experts to speak at RESTORE. So, if you appreciate this ministry, would you please help us out by donating to help us offset these costs to give just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won't miss any of these episodes. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Kat Armstrong interviews Dr. Diane Langberg, a renowned psychologist and trauma expert, shedding light on the challenges of addressing abuse in the Scriptures. Dr. Langberg has sat with, and counseled, countless victims of trauma, violence, rape, and war. She's studied people groups who've been crushed, oppressed and enslaved. She's explored the sewer system of suffering and written to tell of it. And she doesn't back down or hold back. Episode Content Warning: This episode contains content related to sexual assault.  Diane doesn't worry about hurting the Church's image because God doesn't need us to protect his reputation. QUICK LINKS: The In-Between Place by Kat Armstrong: Kat's book about Shechem and how Jesus can change our stories. Dr. Diane Langberg: Home Diane's book, Redeeming Power Find Kat online: Instagram: @KatArmstrong1 Website: http://Katarmstrong.com The Storyline Project: The Storyline Bible Studies ‌ Episode Highlights: Here are the questions Kat asks Dr. Langberg‌ Why aren't there more messages about Dinah's story from our pulpits? Why is abuse of power significant, and how does it play out in Scripture? Why is Jacob's passivity instructive to Christians? Why should someone feeling hopeless, due to systemic and cultural failures in Dinah's story, remain hopeful? Why do you believe Christendom has been seduced by power? How can pastors and communicators teach Scripture passages that contain stories of abuse with care and dignity, ensuring they protect victims in the pews? Why has the Samaritan Woman's story been foundational to your work in supporting abuse survivors? Production Credits: Executive Producers: Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper Producer: Leslie Thompson Associate Producer: McKenzie Hill Audio Editing: Kevin Morris Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/CaDhqixI0jsExposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Powerful figures doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit—attacking the messenger, rather than holding their leader accountable. This edition of The Roys Report features a very personal talk from Restore Conference founder and journalist, Julie Roys, delivered at the recent event this past October. It's centered on one question: why continue reporting, advocating, and shining a light when doing so comes at such a high personal cost? Journalists like Julie often ask this question—and so do many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers, and allies. The work can be grueling, and the pay off at times seems minimal. But in this talk, Julie shares not just her own struggles, but also the convictions she's gained over years of exposing abuse and corruption. If you're struggling to keep fighting for truth and justice, this talk will not just encourage, but inspire you to keep going. Guests Julie Roys Julie Roys is a veteran investigative reporter and founder of The Roys Report. Julie previously hosted a national talk show on the Moody Radio Network, called Up for Debate. She also has worked as a TV reporter for a CBS affiliate in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and as a newswriter for WGN-TV and Fox 32 Chicago. Julie's work has also appeared in Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Federalist, and The Christian Post. She and her husband, Neal, live in the Chicago area and have three children and two grandchildren.  Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys Julie Roys  00:04Exposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Those doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit, attacking the messenger rather than holding their leader accountable. So why continue reporting and advocating and shining a light? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And the question of why not quit is one of those questions I’ve asked myself repeatedly over the years. And I know it’s not one that just journalists ask; many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers and allies do too. The work can be grueling and the payoff at times can seem minimal, so why not quit? Why keep fighting Goliath when the odds continually seem stacked in our opponent’s favor?   Julie Roys  00:52 What you’re about to hear is a very personal talk I gave at the 2023 RESTORE conference. The past 18 months have been especially hard for me. And there have been times when I’ve struggled profoundly with whether I can stay in this work without it deforming my soul. If you’re a survivor, or whistleblower or an ally, or maybe all of the above, you’ve probably experienced some of the same struggles. You may be struggling today. In this talk. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I’m still processing a lot of this stuff myself. But what I do is share my journey and why ,despite the difficulties, which are many and real, I’m not quitting. You’ll hear my talk in just a minute.   Julie Roys  00:52 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.   Julie Roys  02:37 Well, again, here’s the talk I gave a RESTORE 2023 on why not quit? Well, at the first RESTORE conference in 2019, I announced from this stage that we were experiencing an unmistakable move of God to purify his church. James MacDonald had just been exposed as the bully and hypocrite that he was and removed from Harvest Bible Chapel. Bill Hybels was exposed as a sexual predator, and people were finally believing the women, and revelations about Jerry Falwell, Jr. were just beginning to come out. And then donors alleging fraud won a massive $37 million dollar settlement from Gospel for Asia. Clearly God was cleaning house right? And over the next few years, the revelations just kept coming. Jerry Falwell, Jr, resigned from Liberty University amid shocking allegations of sexual and financial misconduct. Ravi Zacharias was shown to be a serial sexual predator, and RZIM was shut down. Hillsong began to implode beginning with Carl Lentz and his sexual misconduct going all the way to Brian Houston, and his sexual misconduct. And then I reported probably the biggest investigation I’ve ever done. I reported on John MacArthur, the supposed greatest expositor of the 20th century, that he had a pattern of shaming abuse victims and protecting their abusers. With story after story after story, the evil infecting the evangelical industrial complex, was being exposed and routed out. And probably more than any other time in my life, I felt like I was right in the middle of this remarkable thing that God was doing. Well, then I experience the most virulent backlash I have ever experienced. An army of YouTubers loyal to John MacArthur just kept hitting. They couldn’t go after the facts of my stories, so they went after me. And I became the poster child of the angry feminist proponent of CRT, wokism –  it didn’t matter whether I adhere to any of these things. They republished it anyway. And John MacArthur, despite everything I’d reported on him, he didn’t get canceled. He went and spoke at the Getty’s Sing conference. At the G3 conference, the Puritans conference. Sure, his reputation has been tarnished a bit. But those loyal dug in.   Well, then some anonymous Twitter accounts loyal to John MacArthur found some objectionable content in a book that I wrote in 2017. And soon I wasn’t just facing backlash from John MacArthur and those loyal to him, but from my own tribe, and from the survivor community. And people were hurt, and they were confused. And like I said, yesterday, some of that criticism was valid and deserved, and I didn’t get the power differential and someone a relationship with somebody that had been in a ministry that I had led, and that was my own responsibility. And I had assigned fault where it didn’t belong, where I should have taken responsibility. But some of the criticism was cruel. And it was patently false. And it was shockingly personal. And if you’ve never been in the midst of a public controversy like that, it’s kind of hard to explain. But it is a unique kind of awful. At least when you’re a private person and people talk about you, they have the decency to do it behind your back. But when you’re a public person, they do it in front of your family and your children and your friends and thousands and thousands of other people. And it was traumatic for me, I know it was even traumatic for some of you. And then perhaps smelling blood in the water, Protestia, a so-called discernment blog, lacking hardly any journalistic integrity, announced that they had a story that was going to expose me as a fraud. And on a Friday, they tweeted, were blocked but someone tag at reached Julie Roys, and give her a heads up in our next article about her revealing some of her shenanigans is really, really gonna sting. And then they published this video:   07:05 I said at the very at the very beginning, that we have some more information coming out about Julie Roys that I’m hoping to have out to you by Monday but suffice it to say it’s going to blow up the facade of Julie Roys as an ethical investigative journalist. We have some information about some very unethical, I would say immoral, but certainly unethical., things that Julie Roys has been caught saying and doing and promoting that we’re going to be releasing this information, hopefully by Monday. So, stay tuned to Protestia.com for that information. I want to thank you all again for joining me tonight on this live stream.   Julie Roys  08:06 So that came out on a Friday, so I had the whole weekend. I’m on pins and needles a whole weekend and I’m like what awful thing did I just do? I have no idea what I just did. So, I’m waiting for this to come out and on Monday Protestia published this menacing tweet. Apparently the story had been delayed a day. But will come out the next morning. Yet on Tuesday instead of publishing their big expose on me Protestia had to publish a retraction saying they almost got conned by an abuse survivor. Of course, they’ve got conned because they went forward with all of these allegations on Friday. Apparently a woman had fabricated some emails that she said were from me. And in these emails, I allegedly said that she should go forward with 300 allegations against a well-known Christian figure whether they were true or false. And sadly, Protestia didn’t do the very basics, the number one thing that you do when someone’s accused, is you go to the accused, and you ask for their side of the story. They didn’t do that until Tuesday, when they started to recognize some things might be going wrong. And they had accepted these fabricated emails as fact for about three days and went forward with those, again, libelous, and slanderous allegations,. The experience was unnerving, especially in the middle of what I was dealing with. But it wasn’t the last hoax I faced either. Someone close to James McDonald came after me with wild allegations that I covered up a child sex abuse scandal at Harvest Bible Chapel when I was investigating it. Nothing could have been further from the truth. Yet, some survivor advocates picked up that story as well and they began tweeting and retweeting it. And I had to track down a story that was three years old and find the emails and the texts and go back to the primary sources and publish my own story, showing that these allegations were false. And whatever momentum that I had going into all of this was completely eradicated. I was just trying to keep my head above water. Emotionally, I was spinning. It was so, so tough.   Julie Roys  10:21 And then people started talking about whether or not I was going to quit. In fact, I got a call from a colleague of mine, and was actually the only journalist who called me in the midst of this. And he said, Julie, I am watching what’s going on online. And he’s like, are you all right? And it was really sweet. And I don’t even know what I said. I was playing blubbering something. But it was a sweet call. But at the end of the call, he’s like, hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but if you do resign, can I have the interview? I was a little taken aback, but then I got a call from a former blogger, who I got to know really well through an investigation. And he gave me permission to share what I’m going to share with you. But he just asked that I call him by his first name, his first name, Scott. And so, he said something very similar. He said, Julie, I’m watching what’s happening to you on Twitter right now. And I just have to tell you as your friend, like, this is painful. He’s like, You don’t owe me an explanation. I know you. I know your character. But don’t take this the wrong way. But have you thought about quitting? And he’s like, I love you and I care about you, and I’ve actually jotted down some reasons that I think you should consider. And would you be willing to just hear me out on this? And I love Scott. I respect Scott. And I knew the heart that he was saying this was, so I said, Sure. Scott, go ahead. Tell me what you think. And he said, one, I noticed that you’re taking all this friendly fire. See, usually, my accusers are the defenders of whatever church leader it is, that’s  caught in the crosshairs of some investigation. But now, my accusers were my own tribe. It was people, some people from the survivor community. And let me just preface what Scott said, by saying, I have found that the survivor community and the people in this room, that some of you have been some of the most gracious people that I know. And the love that I was shown from some of you was so touching. And I have so much respect for survivors. Because survivors have been through hell, and they’ve come out with this beauty. So many of you. And so, it really was a small segment of the survivor community that was really being nasty. But he said, Julie, given the way that you’ve been treated by your own tribe, why would you keep reporting their stories? And I know some of you know what that feels like. Because you’ve tried to help with something. And you stepped out and you’ve messed up in some way and the backlash, and what happened to you when you did that, made you feel like I don’t even want to do that again. Like why try? And that’s how I felt a little bit at that point.   Julie Roys  13:22 But then he said, secondly, maybe your work to expose abuse and corruption is done. And by this, he didn’t mean there weren’t any more abusers out there or anymore corruption. What he was saying is that there’s a pattern. In fact, there’s so much of a pattern, you just see it playing out again and again, and again. It’s like Wade Mullens said in his book, something’s not right. They’re all using the same playbook. They all use the same tactics. He’s like, have you thought that maybe, just maybe, those who have ears to hear have heard and the rest won’t ever listen to it anyway. But lastly, and this is the one that really kind of hit home. And he said, Julie, do you ever wonder in what ways reporting on all of these vile things in the church and living in this constant pressure cooker is molding you and forming you into someone that you don’t want to be? And then he quoted Friedrich Nietzsche, who said, Whoever battles monsters should see to it in the process, that he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the Abyss also looks back at you. And then Scott recalled ways that when he was blogging, that he’d start to see how this was affecting him negatively. That’s part of the reason he stopped doing it. And he said, Julie,  don’t take this as a confrontation. I’m not saying that I see this in you yet. But when I read some of the comments sometimes at your website, that’s when I begin to see it. He’s like, It’s like Grace is disappearing. And friend, you know the verse in the passage in Corinthians, If I speak with the tongues of angels, but have not love, I am nothing but a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal or in my situation, if I expose every predator pastor and defend every vulnerable victim, but have not love, I am nothing. And I know again, my experience is unique in some ways, but it’s not. Also, some of you have been reporting, maybe not as a journalist, but in other ways have been trying to expose abuse and corruption in the church for far longer than I have. Some of you that have spoken at this conference have suffered far worse than I could even imagine,  for standing up for the truth. And you may not be journalists, although there’s some in this room. But you’re bloggers and podcasters and whistleblowers, lawyers, pastors, allies, advocates. And you may today profoundly feel betrayed by those that you expected to support you. A sense of futility about the work that you’re doing. And there are moments when you feel like your work, or advocacy is molding you into someone that you don’t want to be. And you may be wondering, is it worth it? Should I just get out of the trenches? Should I stop doing this and maybe just go to Colorado and hike mountains every day?   Julie Roys  16:39 I have wrestled with all these things profoundly. And I don’t speak today as someone who has all the answers. I am in process like a lot of you. But I do feel like God has spoken to me with some resolution on some of these things. And I just want to share with you kind of what God’s been saying to me, in the hopes that it’ll help you as you wrestle through some of these things as well.   Julie Roys  17:05 So let me talk about the first issue that Scott raised, and that’s betrayal. I mean, why report or advocate or serve or pastor on people who may at any point turn on you? First, let me say, it goes both ways. I’ve been hurt by some survivor advocates, some of them innocently, some of them maliciously. But I’ve hurt some people in this room. I’ve had to ask forgiveness for some people in this room. And they’ve had to show me grace. And so, in some ways, there’s really nothing unique about this. If you’re working with people, we’re going to disappoint each other, right? We’re going to let each other down, we’re going to have to ask for forgiveness, we’re going to have to extend grace. But this is I think the question itself had an assumption in it, and that is that I’m doing what I’m doing for survivors. And I love survivors. I love you guys, and I consider myself now after some of the stuff I’ve been through, one of them too; absolutely love you guys.   Julie Roys  18:20 But this is what I told Scott, or at least what I was thinking at the time, I can’t remember if I told him. But I’m not doing this for survivors. Maybe as a secondary reason, yes. But I don’t think any of us can stay in the work that we’re doing long term if we’re primarily doing it for people. Because when you’re doing it for people, your eyes are always on the worthiness of a person. And we’re pretty darn fallible. In the long term, if that’s what we do, we’re gonna end up very bitter and angry and burned out. The primary reason I’m doing what I’m doing, and I would suggest that all of us should be doing whatever work it is, as an act of worship to God. We’re serving God. And you’ve probably heard the story of Mother Teresa, where she was with a journalist in Calcutta. And he saw her cleaning out this infected wound that was this maggot infested. And he said, “I wouldn't do what you’re doing for a million dollars. And she shot right back, I wouldn’t either. She got that when she served the person on the street, she was serving Jesus. And so, whenever we’re serving whatever capacity it is, we are serving Jesus. I would also say that I do believe God called me to this work.   Julie Roys  19:45 I never would have imagined five years ago that I would be doing what I’m doing today. It was the furthest thing from my imagination. And I bet for some of you in this room 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you never would have imagined you would be here either, or you never would have imagined the set of circumstances that put you in this room right now. And I’m guessing that if you look back over the ,5, 10, 15, however many years it’s been, if you look carefully, you can see the hand of God in your life, putting you where you are right now. It is not the road you would have chosen, but it’s the road that God worked redemptively in.   Julie Roys  20:31 Five years ago, I was a radio host on the Moody Bible Institute, Moody Radio Network. I’d just written a book, I was getting booked at these women’s conferences, ironically, one at Harvest Bible Chapel. I was getting booked on all these radio programs, I was on my way to becoming, God forbid, a Christian celebrity. But then I learned about corruption and abuse at the Moody Bible Institute. And I was the one person who not only had the inside information, but I also had the training and the skills to know what to do with that to expose it. And so, it didn’t take too long before it became a matter of conscience where I felt like if I didn’t say something, that I would be disobeying God. And some of you know exactly what I’m talking about, because you’ve sat in that situation before, where you’ve known that to stay quiet is to disobey God. But you have absolutely no guarantee that if you speak out, that it’s going to go well for you. In fact, you’re pretty darn sure that if you do speak out, it’s gonna go a lot worse. And that’s what happened for me. I got fired from Moody Bible Institute. Ironically, they also pressured the top three executives to resign that I had reported on. But I had broken the silent rule, which is, you never speak about these things publicly. I was actually told by a board member on the phone, that the reason they fired me is because the interim president told them that I had signed an NDA. And I will never forget the shock in his voice  when I told him that several years before when they had moved me from full time to part time that they had given me an NDA, and I fought it with everything I was worth. There was absolutely no way that as a journalist, I would sign something that resigned me to silence, absolutely no way. And he immediately said, Oh, I gotta go and hung up. And despite the fact that they had absolutely no grounds for firing me, I was completely blacklisted in the evangelical industrial complex. And many of you know what that is like too. I knew it would happen, just wasn’t, I had been in it for about 10 years. So, I knew how the game worked.   Julie Roys  23:02 And I thought when I got fired, this would be a great thing. I’ll have more time with my kids, and now my grandkids. But then survivors from Harvest Bible Chapel came to me begging me to hear their stories and do what I had done at Moody for Harvest. And then survivors from Mark Driscoll’s church came and said, “Would you please listen to us and report on what’s happening here? And then Steve Baughman gave me a copy of his book, Cover Up in the Kingdom. And he said, Julie, I’ve been reporting for years about how Ravi Zacharias is a fraud, but nobody will listen to me because I’m an atheist, but they’ll listen to you because you’re one of them. And God brought me story after story after story. And every single time I didn’t hear like the audible voice of God, but I felt very much that he was saying, keep reporting. And so that’s what I’ve tried to do. And ironically, God took the one thing that I thought would end my career, blowing the whistle on the Moody Bible Institute, and he used it to launch The Roys Report. And he used hurting people that I got to know in my reporting on Harvest and Willow Creek to start this conference. And I just see his hand working redemptively in all things. And I bet some of you like I said, if you look back over your life, and even this chapter, you might be able to see God’s hand working redemptively. Maybe not yet. Some of you I know, because I’ve talked to you and it’s like, you’re hanging by a thread right now. And you can’t even believe that the things that have happened to you at the hands of people you loved, and you trusted, and you thought were members of the kingdom and you were all working on the same team, did you what they did. And I would just encourage you for whatever mustard seed of faith that you have, hang on to Jesus. Just hang on. Because I also know that there’s others of you today that you never would have believed, you never would have believed 10 years ago that you would be where you are today. You never would have believed you’d be able to heal. You never would have believed with what you went through, that you would have the confidence and the courage that you have today that you will be as healed as you are. And I just want to remind you, that’s not just because you’re amazing. A lot of you are amazing. And you’re an incredible inspiration to me, and you have been through far more than I ever will go through and ever dream of going through, I would just encourage you to see the way that God has been working in your life doing what he said he would do, that he began a good work in you will carry it on to completion to the day of Christ Jesus.   Julie Roys  25:57 I don’t think it’s trite, that what God did in the Old Testament with Joseph that he still does today. That he takes the evil that was done against us, and he works it for good. And if he’s calling you to a certain work, I would just encourage you to do it with all your might, as unto the Lord. And I’m not going to quit because of the pushback. I think it comes with the territory. In fact, I had an editor once who said Julia, if you’re not getting any hate mail, then you’re probably just not saying anything.   Julie Roys  26:38 But what about the second reason that Scott mentioned? The seeming futility of fighting this evil that seems to have worked itself through the entire dough of evangelicalism and within the church, and you seem to be fighting this giant that is so incredibly massive, and all the people with power are propping it up. And quite frankly, we don’t have very much. In fact, in comparison, we’re just gnats; we’re like so small. You know, last night we heard from Jason and Lorie Adams Brown. And if you know their story, you know that they blew the whistle on Andy Wood, who had been at Echo church because of the spiritual abuse that they received at his hands. Despite the fact that they blew the whistle on him, and I had the privilege of reporting their story, Saddleback Church went ahead and hired him, and he is now the successor for Rick Warren at Saddleback Church.   Julie Roys  27:42 But it was so encouraging to hear from them how their courage and their speaking out, cause other people who had been similarly abused by some of the same people to come to them, and talk to them about the abuse. And for them to say how they got their voice back because that’s what abusers do. They take away your voice. And to reclaim your voice is a very important thing. It is empowering. And then they talked about how another story that came to me because I published that first story was stories about how Andy Wood and Echo Church had stolen these vulnerable congregations that own these multimillion-dollar buildings and had tried to steal those buildings. And a major Baptist leader went on the record with me talking about his experience of Andy Wood trying to steal numerous churches. And that never would have come out had they not spoken.   Julie Roys  28:42 I also recently produced a podcast with Emily Hyland, who’s at this conference. And Emily was a victim of abuse by Dane Ortlund, who’s a pastor in this area. And Emily told me that after we published the podcast, now she’s beginning to hear from other people who have similarly been abused by Dane Ortlund, and now they’re beginning to get their voice and they’re thinking of going on the record. And just a little bit ago, I published the story about Churchome. This is this West Coast church pastored by celebrity pastor Judah Smith, and the first piece that I did on Churchome was about this woman who had been raped by one of their pastors. And they even did an independent investigation and found out that there’s credible evidence, in fact beyond a reasonable doubt that her allegation was true. So, they pressured him, and he resigned from the church and three years later, they hired him back over her objections. And literally the same day, I started getting emails and texts and different things from women who had similarly been abused at that church and wanted to go forward with their story and I was able to do a three-part series on what Churchome had done. And right now, I can’t tell you what the story is because I haven’t published it yet. But I have a big one. And it’s due to another person at Churchome, seeing what we just reported. And now that person came forward and gave me a bunch of information. And that’s how it happens. Every single time with story after story after story. It’s like this little fire starts here, and then it spreads here, and then here, here, and soon the whole hillside is ablaze. And friends, that’s how movements happen. That’s how they grow. But it takes time, and it takes perseverance.   Julie Roys  30:34 At the first RESTORE, I said that this unmistakable move of God that it was not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Now, at that point, I thought we were in like mile 9 or 10. The more I’ve done this now I’m thinking we’re on four or five, we may be on two or three. And I hate to break that news to you. But I really do. People have compared this current state of the church to the Catholic church before the Reformation. I actually think that’s a fair comparison. It is that corrupt. It is that widespread. Do you know how long the Reformation took? Historians date it from 1517 to 1648. Friends that is 131 years. How about slavery? Let’s just look at England. It took William Wilberforce fighting passionately, so much so that his own health suffered greatly for two decades to abolish slavery in England, because friends, that’s how institutionalized evil and that is what we are dealing with institutionalized evil. That’s how it’s dismantled. So, do I get discouraged? 100%. I’m human. Are there days when it’s hard to persevere? But I believe the corruption in the church is the most serious threat to this country. And most Christians don’t even know it. That’s the shocking thing. Most Christians aren’t even aware of it. And you say, Well, how can I say that? How many times have we heard the hope of the world is Jesus and his means of rescuing the world is thank you, the church. And we’re supposed to be the salt of the earth. We’re supposed to be a light on the hill, and we are Sodom and Gomorrah. And yet, what are most all the Christian leaders doing right now? What are they talking about? They’re talking about all the sin out there. Right? They’re talking about everything that’s bad out there in the world. Like they have a moral platform to stand on. And they’re not talking about the sin in their own house, none of them. And unless we deal with the sin in our own house, there’s no way, there’s no way that we’re going to reform this country. And it certainly isn’t by electing some politician.   Julie Roys  33:21 But I would encourage you, and this is what I see happen a lot, is that people get really excited about a story that touches them personally. And thank God because every time I report a new story, there are people who are totally unaware that this is going on, and they become aware. But then what happens is they move on with their life. And I’m not saying that you shouldn’t move on with your life. Dear Lord, if all of us lived in, I’ve got a weird call. I get that. I got a weird personality too. I make mugs. Actually. I have people make them for me, but the biggest insults I get I actually enjoy that at times. I’m just kind of weird that way. But I’m just there is an element to which we can’t all live in that intensity, and I get that. But what I’m saying is, don’t just move on and forget there’s other people stuck. Don’t just move on. Keep your love for the church and for the mission and for the restoration of this thing that Jesus died for and that he loves. And don’t forget that if not you, who? So, am I going to quit because the progress is slow and hard? No. I’m going to keep in mind one of my favorite verses First Corinthians 15:58. Therefore my dear brothers and sisters, do not lose heart. Stand firm. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.   Julie Roys  35:07 And now I’m going to address the most concerning issue that Scott raised. And that is what if in the process of fighting the monster, you become the monster? Last year Christian therapist and trauma expert Dr. Diane Langberg, said from the stage that the way that you recognize a wolf is you don’t become one. Some people took offense at that, because they said, listen, we’re not all going to become pedophiles. We’re not all rapists, we’re not like on that level. And they’re right. It takes a certain level of pathology to do something like that. And most people, quite frankly, aren’t there, thank God. That said, that’s not what Diane was saying. What Diane was saying is that every single one of us, every single one of us has a sin nature. And if we don’t keep that in check, we can succumb to a lot of the same things as the people I report on. I would be lying if I said that I didn’t have some of the vices of the people I report on because I do. I struggle with anger, bitterness, contempt, self-pity, that’s a big one, pride. And the more I uncover and the more that I see innocent people abused by these people, the more difficult it becomes to deal with some of those vices. It can become a death spiral. And the spiritual death that we see in other people can become our spiritual death. Dr. Lambert writes about this in her devotional book called In Our Lives First. And this is a book that I’ve read twice, devotionally over the past 18 months. I’ll probably read it again over the next year because this is something that I constantly need to be reminded of. And she writes, those of us who work with such deaths must be extremely careful not to catch the diseases that surround us. We must be careful not to assume that catching such diseases is hard to do. Working with sin, suffering and evil can easily numb the heart. Numbness leads to death, if left alone. She also writes, counselors, though this is true of investigative reporters, it’s true of pastors, it’s true of Survivor advocates, many others. We are handling toxic things, and we have toxins in our own hearts, and it is not hard to either be destroyed by the work or to destroy those who come to us for help. So, what do we do? Do we quit working in the trenches? Lori Anne suggested that some people should quit. I’m not going to argue with Lori Anne. Maybe I tweak it a little bit. Let me just speak to those of you who like me grew up in a home where personal responsibility and duty was a big thing. Any of you? okay. And so sometimes those of us who grew up in these homes tend to do things because we feel like we have to, and we have a sense of responsibility and duty. And we can be destroying ourselves and destroying the relationships with those we love the most. Yet we keep doing it because we think we have to. Am I right? Can I get an Amen? Now, right? I don’t think God is honored when we destroy ourselves. And I tell you what, he’s certainly not honored, when eventually that turns into harm for others, because eventually that’s what happens. So, if that’s you, and that’s happening, you know, maybe you don’t need to have a frontline role. Maybe you can just step back for a season. Maybe you can support some people that are out there. You know, maybe you can adjust your role or maybe you do take a little bit of a break. Or maybe you do go to Colorado for three weeks and hike mountains. But is there a way? Is there a way to remain in work that exposes us to the vilest, the vilest things that happen in this world, yet instead of destroying us, it actually aids in our own sanctification? Sanctification, just a theological word for the process of becoming like Jesus.   Julie Roys  39:53 I grew up in the holiness movement. You may not know what that means. That’s okay. But in the holiness movement, we talked a lot about sanctification. And we talked a lot about a second work of the Holy Spirit, kind of like charismatics talk about a baptism of the Holy Spirit, except the manifestation within the holiness movement isn’t tongues, the manifestation is power over sin in your life. And we weren’t against tongues. Speak in tongues? Absolutely. Just like Paul said, I wish you all were like me. Just if it doesn’t lead to your sanctification, what good is it? That’s the point is that we become like Jesus, right? Diane Langberg writes a lot about sanctification. She doesn’t urge counselors to quit their work. Instead, she implores them to pursue Jesus. She writes, we have not heard God clearly if we fail to understand that one of the requirements for our work is that God’s sanctifying work must go on continually in us as well. If it does not, while we may appear for a time to be doing his work, eventually what is true will be made manifest. That we have not for the sake of others, meant to the sanctification process ourselves, we will damage his world, His people and His name, may it never be so.   Julie Roys  41:17 One of the great tragedies of the epidemic of abuse and corruption in the evangelic church is that it is pushing people away from Jesus. And many because of the hurt that they’ve experienced are beginning to deconstruct their faith. And I’m not dissing deconstruction. Many of us need to go back and reevaluate a lot of the beliefs that we took in and begin to think about those and we need a safe place to do that in. We need people who are safe people to do that with, we need safe people. We need to be safe people. And I’d be lying if I didn’t say that what I have been exposed to hasn’t caused me to doubt my faith. In fact, the hardest question for me has been does Christianity, does it make people worse? Or does it make people better? Because I’ve seen some really devout Christians who have incredible grip of Scripture, incredible grip of theology much better than I do. And yet they are some of the most wicked people I have ever known in my life. And I tell you what I’ve become convinced of, I’ve concluded that Christianity, divorce from a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ and reduced to a theological system, a moralistic system, or God forbid, a political one is absolutely heinous. And it does make people into monsters.   Julie Roys  43:06 But I believe a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ is not only helpful in helping us deal with the vilest thing of this world, it is 100% essential. I know my relationship with Jesus has sustained me over the past 18 months. I remember several weeks before last year’s RESTORE conference, and I was a mess, and Dr. Diane Langberg got on a zoom call with me for about 90 minutes. And she was so loving, and so gracious, which I’m sure is not hard for you to imagine. And she was Jesus to me. And I remember saying to her, Diane, the hardest part about this whole thing to me is that I’ve been accused of these awful things, and I can’t say anything. I remember having a very close friend who said, Julie, if you step down from that conference, everybody’s going to assume that everything that was said about you is true. And Diane said to me, she said, Julie, this is an opportunity for you to enter into Christ’s sufferings. And initially, I thought about that very much in a martyr sort of way. Because if you’ve been wronged in some way, it’s really really easy to get a martyr complex. Super easy. But it hasn’t been like that.   Julie Roys  44:43 So, I had a very profound experience with a spiritual coach mentor about, I don’t know, seven or eight months ago where we were just doing some breathing exercises because I was kind of worked up. It’s hard to imagine I know. And while we’re in the process of this, she said, just experience the Lord’s compassion. And that morning, I had read about Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. And I began imagining being in the garden of Gethsemane with Jesus. I have a pretty vivid imagination. So, I’m there and I’m looking at his face and I see just incredible pain on his face. And it strikes me he’s just been betrayed by one of his 12 closest companions. And one of his three closest friends is going to deny him three times. And I felt betrayed by people who are frankly kind to strangers. I don’t really even know any more. And then Jesus is literally sweating, beads of blood. I had gone through some emotional trauma; I’ve never done that. And then Jesus is thinking about this in the night before he’s going on the cross. I began thinking of this, he’s going to be tortured to death the next day. I have never in my life been tortured for my faith. I read Miriam’s book, and I was devastated. What that woman has gone through, and she has overcome. I am in awe of her. Jesus suffered. The immensity of His suffering began to hit me. And I in that moment, finally didn’t feel sorry for myself. And somehow, in that whole process, I felt more unified with Jesus than I’d ever felt before. And there was this oneness, and somehow now what I had gone through had meaning and that made all the difference in the world. I’ve also been thinking about the fact that Jesus died for his enemies. I have enemies now. I don’t think I had enemies before I started reporting. Like I people didn’t like me. But enemies. I mean, somebody really bent on your destruction like that, actually schemes about it. I have those now. Some of you have those now. I’m having a tough enough time forgiving them. Dying for them? Man. And here’s where it gets tough because Jesus says we’re supposed to have the same attitude that he had.   Julie Roys  47:29 I was challenged by a friend several years ago, to just read through the Old Testament, and read about every single time that a prophet brings a word of judgment to people. It took me several months, but I went ahead and did it. And something dawned on me. Every time that God gave a prophet a harsh word to say to his people, it was never because he wanted to destroy them. We see this in the story of Jonah, right? You all know the story. Jonah is told to go to the Ninevites. Nineveh is the capital of the Assyrian bloodthirsty, hostile people, the enemies of the Israelites. And what does he do? He goes to Tarsus gets on a ship and they go out to the Mediterranean. The big storm comes they throw him overboard, fish swallow them, he’s in the fish three days, vomited up on dry land, and he says, Okay, fine, I’ll go to Nineveh, goes to Nineveh for three days. He tells the Ninevites that in 40 days, God’s going to destroy you. And then the Ninevites do a most remarkable thing. They actually repent and God has mercy on them. But Jonah, what does he do? He becomes despondent. He says to the Lord, oh, Lord, is this not what I said when I was in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarsus, for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love unrelenting from disaster. Therefore,  oh Lord, please take my life for me. For it is better for me to die than to live. Jonah had become every bit as hard-hearted as the people that he hated. And if that can happen to a prophet of God, it can happen to me, can happen to any one of us.   Julie Roys  49:29 So, this is kind of a heart check for us. This heart check for me, I began to think about this. Like what if John MacArthur repented? It’s hard to imagine. The man’s never apologized that I know of. That’s what I’m told from everybody near him. But let’s imagine he did. What if John MacArthur went to Eileen Gray, and he said, Eileen, I’m so sorry. When your husband tried to suffocate your daughter and the abuse was so brutal in your home that you came to the church, you came to us for help. And instead of helping you, we told you to drop that protective order that you would have gotten against him to protect, not you, but your children. And in front of the entire church, I, the shepherd shamed and excommunicated you simply for trying to protect your children. And years later, years later when it came out that he had sexually abused your children and was convicted by court, and you know how hard it is to be convicted in California of child abuse? And they sent him to prison? I still maligned you, and I protected your abuser. Oh, Eileen, I am so sorry. I have sinned against you. I’ve sinned against my church; will you forgive me? Or what if he went to Wendy Gray and, Wendy, when you came to me, or when your father came to me when you were just a teenager, and he confessed to my face, that he had sexually molested you, and I kept him on staff another three years and I wrote you that handwritten note telling you to forgive your father? That was wrong, that was a sin against you. And years later, decades later, when that action of mine had devastated your life, and you simply came to me because you wanted support going to the elders of the church, where your father was still pastoring. And at this point, you knew that he was a serial abuser, he was abusing many people because that’s what pedophiles do. Instead of coming with you instead of supporting you, instead of repenting for what I did, I said in an email to you, why has this become such an obsession for you? That devastated you. That was my fault. I am so sorry. Will you forgive me for that? Do I want John MacArthur to receive grace? Do I want him to repent? or would I rather him see his maker and try and make that excuse to him? Honestly? It’s a little bit of a struggle. But I thought about that. Imagine if John MacArthur repented? I mean, really repented? Can you imagine the ripple effect that would have? How many pastors that would affect in this church? Can you imagine what that would do? Unbelievable what would happen if John MacArthur repented. Would I rejoice at that? You bet I’d rejoice at that. That could be the start of revival in this church. That’s what we need to see – is pastors repenting.   Julie Roys  53:09 But I tell you what, that is not natural for me. I tell you what’s natural for me. When somebody hurts me, I want them to hurt in the same way that they hurt me. Can I get an amen? That’s human nature, isn’t it? The only reason that I have any grace in my heart is because of Jesus Christ. Because I wouldn’t have it without him. And without him, I would become a monster, I am convinced of it. And that’s why one of many reasons why I need Jesus. But now I’m going to say something a little bit controversial. I’ve also found that I need Christian community. And I know some of you have been so burned by your Christian community, and I don’t blame you for not wanting to darken the doors of the church. Three and a half years ago, we lost a church, or we left the church that I thought we would be in the rest of our lives. I thought it was different. I loved that church dearly. I loved the people in it. But the last straw for us was when they covered up sex abuse. And at that point, we just couldn’t trust the leadership anymore. And for two years, we went from church to church to church to church, and it was unbelievably depressing. And I won’t go into all the reasons it was depressing. I think you all know. But two weeks before everything blew up in my life when this whole controversy hit last year. Two weeks before that a professional colleague invited me to his house church. And here’s what’s kind of ironic, that professional call I happen to be the CEO of Christianity Today. Now, if you know anything about my past, which you may not, I have not had a great relationship with Christianity Today. That CEO, though, has since publicly apologized for some of the stuff that CT did to me under his predecessor. But two weeks before this happened, I was like, Great, yeah, I’ll try anything at this point. So, my husband and I went to the church, the house church. And it was great, we loved it. I was like, this is really super. Between week one and week two, everything in my world blew up, and I had to resign from the conference. And I remember walking into that house church with people I knew two weeks. And I wasn’t really planning on sharing this. But somebody noticed something I had said, and then when we were in small groups, they said something, and I just, and I’m bawling in front of people I don’t even know, hardly. But over the past 18 months, that’s become my Christian community. And I was invited into a women’s cohort. And that became a support for me. And the leader of the women’s cohort said, “Julie, do you have a prayer team? And I said, Well, I used to have a prayer team, but it’s kind of fizzled. And I don’t honestly even have the strength to put one together. And she says, I’ll do it for you. And so, once a month, we have this really sweet prayer time with a small group of people. And they’ve been some of the best times for me, and I honestly shudder to think of where I would be right now, if for the past 18 months, I had done that in isolation. And so, I’m so grateful for Christians in my life, who have been the hands and the feet of Jesus to me and who have loved me. And I don’t know. I can’t speak to your situation. I know some of you feel like you’re in a wasteland. And I know you feel like all the churches in your area are bad. And I don’t, I’m not even going to argue with you. I would just encourage you to not give up, to not give up. And to keep hoping, keep pressing into Jesus keep looking for Christian community. And I don’t know how God will meet that in your life. But I just trust he will because that’s just God’s nature. And I don’t know how long the wasteland will be, but it won’t last forever.   Julie Roys  57:40 So, we’re going to close this conference the way we close every single RESTORE conference, and that’s with communion. And Paul Lundquist, who is a local pastor who has been a dear friend of this ministry, and so supportive of what we’re doing is going to come and lead us in communion where we celebrate not just our oneness with Christ, but our oneness together as his body. So, Paul, would you come?   Julie Roys  58:05 Well, I hope you’ve been encouraged by what you just heard. And I wish you could have been there to experience communion together with those dear and beautiful souls at the RESTORE conference. That is a memory I will not soon forget. And I hope you’ll make it a point to join us at the next RESTORE conference, which we’ll be announcing soon. Also, I want to mention that the videos of these talks are all available at my YouTube channel. And we’re not charging anything for those. We just really want as many people as possible to benefit from these RESTORE conference talks. But friends, I’m sure you’re aware that producing these podcasts and videos is not cheap. So, if you appreciate this content and you’re able to help, would you please consider donating to The Roys Report, especially as you’re considering your end of the year donations, please remember us and the work that we do. We’re running a bit in the red this year so your gifts are especially critical, so we can continue podcasting and reporting at the same level. To donate just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Guest Bios Show Transcript Part 2 of our eye-opening podcast on bullying, featuring the woman who blew the whistle on author and pastor, Dane Ortlund, is out! If you missed part one, you can find it here. In this podcast, Ortlund whistleblower, Emily Hyland, describes what she wishes she knew when she was being bullied that she knows now. And anti-bullying expert, Paul Coughlin, offers keen insights from his decades of experience, as well.  Coughlin, author of the best-selling, No More Christian Nice-Guy, and founder of The Protectors, reveals how bullies identify their targets. He also gives steps every person can take to stand up to them.  Meanwhile, Hyland explains how to educate yourself on bullies, but warns against trying to become an expert before taking action. She also shares important developments in her case against Ortlund, author of Gentle and Lowly. For anyone who has experienced bullying, or wants accountability for a bully, don't miss this podcast. You may even want to take notes! Guests Emily Hyland Emily Hyland earned her bachelors in Molecular Genetics and Biotechnology before working for the Office of Naval Research in Washington, DC. While there she received a MHSA in Management & Leadership from The George Washington University. She has worked with the US Army and the Office of the Surgeon General, Accenture, GE, and across finance, manufacturing, health services, and information technology. Recently, she was the Director of Operations at Naperville Presbyterian Church in suburban Illinois. She is married and has three children.  Paul Coughlin Paul Coughlin is an author, an international speaker and the founder and president of The Protectors, which is dedicated to helping schools, organizations and communities combat bullying. His books include No More Christian Nice Guy, Raising Bully-Proof Kids and 5 Secrets Great Dads Know. Paul and his wife, Sandy, reside in central Oregon and have three teenage children. Learn more about Paul and his organization at www.theprotectors.org. Show Transcript JULIE ROYS, PAUL COUGHLIN, EMILY HYLAND JULIE ROYS 00:03 How do you deal with bullying by a pastor or Christian employer? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And this is part two of a two-part podcast with bullying expert Paul Coughlin and whistleblower Emily Hyland. If you missed part one, I'd encourage you to go back now and listen to that. It was a fascinating discussion in which Emily gave new details about the alleged bullying and retaliation she received at the hands of Dane Ortlund. Dane is the pastor of Naperville Presbyterian Church in Naperville, Illinois. He's also the author of the bestselling book, Gentle and Lonely. But according to Emily, Dane is a bully. In Emily's case alleging retaliation by Dane and his church because she blew the whistle on Dane's bullying is now going to trial. And you'll hear about important developments in that case in this podcast. You'll also hear important insights on how to deal with bullies in a Christian workplace. And Emily will share what she wishes she knew back when she was being bullied that she knows now. I'm so looking forward to diving into the rest of my discussion with Emily and Paul Coughlin. But first I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington if you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. We now return to part two of my discussion with Paul Coughlin and Emily Hyland. Specifically, Emily explains more of what she wishes she knew back when she was being bullied that she knows now. And one thing I've learned about Emily is that she doesn't do anything halfway. So, when she realized something wasn't right, she quickly devoured resources like author and advocate Wade Mullins' book by that title. But Emily urges that while it's important to find resources, victims shouldn't go overboard and get a PhD. We've kind of touched on this, you said find resources, but don't get a PhD on the subject. I'm guessing, just knowing a little bit about you, Emily, you like to master something before you move forward with it. And I'm guessing you couldn't do that. But you did a great job of informing yourself; talk about that process. EMILY HYLAND 03:08 There are so many more resources that are available in this moment than there were two and a half years ago. Coming right out of it, that book by Wade Mullen was the first I read because of the title, Something's Not Right. Like you're right, that is exactly describing it. I have to read that. And I went through, and I read Diane Langberg and Scot McKnight and Laura Behringer's book. I read Chuck DeGroote, I went through an entire podcast called Power Corrupts and have been increasingly able to articulate accurately what happened and that makes me feel more safe, that I am not speculating. I can say, in the fewest words possible, here's what happened, and the impacts and why it was wrong. That has helped in the legal sense is that I don't waste my time on the nebulous side of just thinking, well, what might have those pastors been thinking? I mean, I don't know what they were thinking, I don't know their hearts. A psychiatrist maybe could get at some of these things. I don't need to know those things. I just need to accurately know what was going on in my own mind, in my own heart. I think one resource that I value now is that I wish I'd had then was there was no ChatGPT two years ago, and I wasted a lot of words trying to get my point across. And people don't realize that when you're making an accusation about a pastor, you're making it against a professional communicator, somebody who is possibly way better with words than their victim. That was really hard. I had just too many words. And now ChatGPT has made a big difference just for me personally, to feel more confident in describing the situation. But I really don't think that you need to be 100% certain and able to write a dissertation on it to step forward and say, I've seen bullying behaviors. We need to tackle it now. But you've got to stand up and say something, whether it's on your behalf or the behalf of somebody else. Bullies need to be confronted to their face. You can't shove a book at them and say, read this; does it sound like you? You have to speak it out to people to say, this is an individual interpersonal matter. Books help to get you the right words, but you can't get around the fact that somebody, at some point, needs to bring it up to their face. JULIE ROYS 05:26 Hmm. And one thing if I could add to that, is give yourself some grace. Because I heard you say, like my own motives and my own. It's so hard when you're in the midst of this and you're angry, and you have a right to be angry, and you're hurt, and you have a right to be hurt. And in all that to be absolutely pristine in every attitude and thought, of course, you're not going to be. And I think people need to have some grace with themselves when they're walking through this. I remember once we were leaving a church and I said to somebody, oh, I just want to make sure that we don't sin. And he's like, No, you will, but try to minimize that. Just hearing that gave me I don't know, just kind of a relief that Okay, right. I'm human in this and don't have to be perfect. PAUL COUGHLIN 06:15 Julie, if I did add to that there's a great line by Shakespeare. And he says that some people are more sinned against than sinner. And that is how it is when it comes to bullying in the workplace in faith-centric organizations. What's interesting is that many people who are targets of bullying are nice people. And nice people will spend so much more time worrying about their behaviors than the person who is abusing them, harming them and their family. We really need to move away from that thinking. I also think that thinking is baked into the system as well, in the rhetoric used by many of our leaders for decades, into make us think that there is something fundamentally wrong with us, when we recognize this behavior in other people. We really need to move away from that, we need to stop being so nice, which is often a knee jerk reaction to people pleasing, it has nothing to do with the fruit of the spirit of kindness. Niceness is never mentioned in the Bible, for example, as an attribute of the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit, it's not a fruit of the Spirit, and bullies in the workplace, particularly within the church faith-centric organizations, they use our niceness against us. It's one of the reasons why we're targeted. We don't use the word victim at the protectors very often, we prefer the word target, and here's why. You have been selected the bully in the workplace. The bully pastor has picked on some people but not other people. Why is that? Because a bully is not looking for a fight, they want to overwhelm another person. So, they look for the nice person, they look for the person for example, who lives by turning the other cheek. There is no more tortured scripture in the theater of bullying, then turn the other cheek. When you put it in context. It has to do with having a generous spirit. It has nothing to do with accepting abuse from another person. So, we really need to have these distinctions. Niceness is really not a virtue, it's actually a vice in disguise. It's often the sin of cowardice, Revelation 21:8, we need to get tougher and stronger. We need to speak the truth in love. We still need to be gracious. But we also need to be truthful. I love what Emily said, in that someone needs to speak to the bullies face that is so important. If I give one piece of advice. The sooner you stand up to a bully in the workplace in the church, the better your life is going to be. The sooner you do it, the better. JULIE ROYS 08:44 So good. And in that some of the weapons that are used commonly against the person who speaks up is the word gossip. And you're labeled gossip. I'm guessing, Emily, that happened to you? I don't know. But did you find that parsing out what gossip is and understanding and distinguishing between that and what you were doing, was that an important step for you? EMILY HYLAND 09:10 The verbiage was because I wasn't talking to people about what was going on. And I regret caring about somebody's reputation more than the harm they were causing people. Gossip is a hard concept in the church because a church is like a proxy for family not having family in the area. And so, I want people to know what's going on in my life. I want to know what other people's is going on, how can I care for somebody or support somebody if I'm really not knowing what's going on? But then there's that sinful gossip of self-serving prideful nitpicking rumor spreading,. Those things can really be meshed together. And for my experience is that this came all that this gossip part came to like this moment, the single experience where I've talked to two elders, and they should know what they're doing. And there was this pivot as soon as they told Dane and the associate about what I had said. And now the elders are saying, Oh, we made a mistake. We should be modeling Matthew 18. Let's go backwards. You go meet with him privately. And I was like, what? JULIE ROYS 10:19 Matthew 18, just to interject for anybody who doesn't know this, if turn the other cheek is the most abused, this has to be second, right? Yeah. It's Matthew 18, which instructs, and again, this is with personal offenses. It says, with a personal offense to first take your offense to your brother one on one, then if he doesn't listen to you to take one or two people with you, then if he doesn't listen, then speak it to the entire church. Again, Matthew 18 is not a prescription for bully pastors. I would say ITimothy 5:20, is the prescription for bully pastors, which is when there's an elder who's sending that you should publicly expose him so that others may stand in fear. Good grief, somebody who's being bullied, does not need to go through a Matthew 18. They go to people who are supposed to be advocates who are supposed to hold the pastor accountable. And when they don't, then to me, you're completely in a ITimothy 5:20 situation where it's time to publicly expose the sinning pastor. So rarely hear that passage. Instead, we always hear Matthew 18. And it's used as a club. It's used abusively, and it's a misapplication. PAUL COUGHLIN 11:31 Julie let's say that a person has gone under a sexual assault. Do we really think that we would require that person to meet one on one? No one but your most ardent fundamentalist would say yes to that. Most people would say, okay, that's an exception. I'll give you that exception. How is that the only exception? And this is used in Christian schools, by the way with kids who are being bullied, I argue it absolutely doesn't apply, in fact, you're retraumatizing that poor kid whose been the target of bullying to sit in the same room. So, we really need more than knowledge of Matthew 18. We need wisdom. And wisdom is doesn't apply to all situations at all times. EMILY HYLAND 12:10 And that's what made this so difficult is that I've just told two elders about the bullying and intimidation in those words. And their response is, I think we need to go do this again. And you need to go meet with him privately. And I can't say no, he's my boss. So that's what we do. And it's a closed-door private meeting, no witnesses. What was said in that meeting? But what really stood out to me was his line, have you told anyone else about this? It sounded like it was delivered, like straight out of a horror story to the character whose body is never found, because what the answer is, is that if I had said, Yes, I was guilty of gossip about a pastor, my church elder. If I said, no, there are no witnesses in the control of the narrative still possible, as long as I'm not around to contradict anything. And that's what happened. Forty-eight hours later, that's what I told him. I said, No, I haven't said anything, because what I believe is that gossip hinders reconciliation efforts. And I wanted this to be reconciled. I had no premonition that this was unrecoverable. I know better now. But what I thought then is that, yeah, there was no need to gossip, because it's like I saw a problem. I'm like, let's get these elders involved. Let's get this back on the rails moving on. And what it actually was, is, I did myself a disservice by not gossiping more. I don't want to gossip. But I wish I had talked to people who were safe and outside of that church. JULIE ROYS 13:40 And that's not gossip. No, that is getting the help that you need in certain situations. And so important for us to understand, distinguish between those. What about the family impact? Because you have children. And I've heard this from numerous people where I would do this, I would speak up, but I've got children in the church. Sometimes it's the spouse, there's all these connections and leverage that, quite frankly, the leader or the organization has over the person that's being bullied. Talk about that and how you navigated that. EMILY HYLAND 14:21 For me, I kept this all under wraps. Nobody knew, nobody knew what I was feeling. So, they probably noticed there was something wrong. And I remember when my mom asked me, she's like, how's it going working for Dane? And I had no answer. I couldn't just say fine, I held back. But then when this all came crashing down, she didn't know how to help me. My husband didn't know how to help me. Everybody knew I had worked for church. And then one moment I wasn't, they really did not know why they were at this church one Sunday, and nobody from that church ever spoke to them again. I mean, I'm shouldering my own mountain of grief, and then I've got this, you know, layer of they're grief. My oldest son, he's like, I was happy at MPC. And they were until it was over. And I think that processing the grief with them has been valuable. I trust that God will use this in their faith walk for their good. But I wish I'd spoken up earlier, and I wish I had prepared my family for the consequences of speaking up. What happens when you tell the truth is that you might experience hardship and pain, it's worth it. But I wish I had prepared myself to give them a little bit more solace as to how to navigate, and why their world changed so much so quickly. JULIE ROYS 15:42 I mean, listening as a mother, my heart just goes out to you and to your family, for what you've been through. And it's hard enough for adults, but for children to process how this happens, and to distinguish between the people that hurt them who are symbols of the Church of God. It's just so painful to see that and it just requires so much prayer, so much care. But I mean, none of us on this call, and I'm guessing, Paul, you included, my kids have not been spared any of the effects of what I've gone through. They shoulder it with me whether or not they deserve to because they really don't deserve any of it. And yet, there's no way to insulate them from it. PAUL COUGHLIN 16:30 And a job, in a supposed Christian environment, it certainly wasn't. And I have three kids, and they were younger. And I would drive home from that job. And you just undergo stuff that is just horrendous. And I had a mantra that I would tell myself in the car – our old blue Volvo. I would say this is not my future, this is not my future, this is not the Lord's will for my life. And it helped and it helps to highlight something fundamental for targets; hope is more important than love for a beleaguered individual, and a beleaguered community. We see this often in the writings and speeches of Martin Luther King. Why did he talk about hope so much? Because if you don't have a functioning hope, that today, tomorrow, the next day year, could be better – love doesn't land well. Without hope we can't digest love very well. So, one thing that we need to do is to inculcate more hope in our spirit is to realize this is not your future. This is temporary, it's not permanent. It's one of the reasons why we recommend that people start looking for another job, because we're talking about bullying within faith centric organizations. Looking for another job has a way of bolstering your hope. And with that hope we tend to think more clearly and more proactively. JULIE ROYS 18:01 Hmm. For some reason, I'm thinking of the movie Back to the Future. I don't know if you remember that. But there's a main bully. Yeah, and the two different scenarios that the entire family experiences because the father is bullied in front of his son. In the first scenario, that impacts the son's view his father and the culture of the family, and how it changes when somebody stands up to the bully. And I think one of the things that we don't think about enough is what it communicates to our children when we don't say anything, and we allow this kind of harm to continue. I talked to somebody recently, and I have to sort of laugh because I asked her how your kids process what happened? And she sort of laughed, and she said, at first it was really difficult. She said that they kind of think their mom's badass. I was like, okay, but I mean, in the very best sense of that word, if there is, is that they see that you're worth standing up for and that there are things worth standing up for. There's things worth paying a price for. And I think it's important as Christians that we start modeling that in the way that we respond. PAUL COUGHLIN 19:19 We're told as parents, not to exasperate our children, right in Scripture? One way to exasperate your children is to show cowardice and for them to witness that. That can make them feel incredibly uncomfortable and unstable. JULIE ROYS 19:32 Good point. EMILY HYLAND 19:33 I think it too is that you know, like that parable Jesus told about a man who finds a treasure in the field, and he sells everything to get the treasure. It's almost the counter like the inverse is that what would I not give to keep my kids from being discipled in gracelessness and fear and corruption? I mean, to not have my kids in that I'm like, I will pay that price. My kids will not be breathing that air and under that thumb of oppression and hurting other people. I don't want them to grow up thinking that that's okay at church. You can, I think, latch on to the teeniest tiniest nugget of courage to say, I can do this, because other people might benefit. JULIE ROYS 20:22 In a way, you had no idea when you spoke to the elders, how that was going to play out and what the consequences were going to be. But you say that we should understand the risks but take the gamble anyway. Why do you say that? EMILY HYLAND 20:37 When I look back, I think, like you said about the matrix. I mean, there was a period, I was like, please just plug me back into the matrix. I just wanted to go back. And then there was the period where I was like, please just let me have a lobotomy so I cannot have these memories, and not know, have these relationships that you know, now are nothing. And now I think that outcome was the right outcome. To be violently removed, was how God needed to do it. He did it on my behalf, he did it on behalf of my children, I needed it. But on the behalf of other people in that congregation who had the similar experience. I think that knowing the risks, that you could be fired and disfellowshipped, and the House of Cards will come crumbling down. If you know those risks, you still stand up, and you still speak the truth. Because the speaking of the truth is important to Christians. And if you're being abused by a Christian leader, whatever the outcome is of speaking the truth, is the best possible outcome. The other consequences coming from either tolerating sin or silencing your conscience; those may seem like a preferable outcome in the short term. But they are so costly to your soul and to your spirit that to be out of an abusive and coercive church is always better than being in one. So, to know those risks, and it's painful, it could be awful, it could be the worst thing you ever go through in your whole life. But do it anyway, because you were meant to be on the outside of an abusive church. JULIE ROYS 20:42 Paul, one of the things I should say, a person and a characteristic that I didn't even know about when I started reporting is the narcissist. And yet, I have learned about the narcissist in spades right now. But I think a lot of times, we don't know that that is what we are dealing with, in these situations, because this person has a title. And this person can speak so lovingly from the stage. Talk about the narcissist, and what we need to know as the person who is on the receiving end of what they're dishing out in our dealings with them. PAUL COUGHLIN 22:58 Yeah, so the narcissistic personality or antisocial personality can be depending on the study, 10, 12, 15 percent of a given population. It doesn't sound like a lot, but sometimes that's one out of every eight people can have this characteristic. That's pretty big, particularly when you look at a congregation, right? Most bullies bully, not because they have low self-esteem. They abuse others because they have excessive self-esteem. They think they're wonderful. And then you add on top of that this component that they are somehow especially circled by God. So, you already have this overinflated ego. And now it's uber inflated, because now they are a special person in a special world putting out special information that other people have not discerned until they were born, which is pretty stunning. We need to realize that most narcissists see people in two ways, people who are either below them or a threat. And this is how they look at the world. They are constantly measuring things in order to keep themselves at the top of the hierarchy. And again, to keep themselves at the top of the hierarchy isn't for them to necessarily usher in the kingdom of heaven to play their part, it's for their kingdom. They'll talk a lot about the kingdom of heaven, but it's really about their kingdom. And I'm reminded of that, I had a dinner with Mark Driscoll and very interesting dinner. And he kept talking about how it was all about Jesus. And he kept saying it over and over. But yet, if you look at the guy's actions, it's not all about Jesus. So, they often speak one way, but they really behave in a very different way. One thing that narcissists have in common is that they have three things in common and I mentioned one of them, an inflated self-regard. They really believe they're more important than other people. They don't believe the Bible. The Bible says we're equal, they don't really, they'll say we're equal. But that's not how they truly think. They really think they're above the herd. And because of that, it makes them tremendously dangerous. They also have a great sense of entitlement; things are owed to them again, because they're wonderful. But then they have a third component. And this third component is antagonism. And I've often explained to people who have been the target of bullying, but in faith centric organizations, the best bullies harm you, but they smile on their face and a lilt in their voice. They're the most damaging ones, because they hide their antagonism. Their words are designed to humiliate, and really destroy you. But they do it in such a way that it almost seems like okay for them to do that. It goes back to that cognitive dissonance that we talked about earlier. The look on the face is kind, but the words are poison. That's all on purpose. They have been practicing that dark skill for a long time, and most of them have gotten away with it for a long time, as well. So, to the best of our abilities, know who you're really dealing with, because it's a very different response than how you would deal with someone, for example, there's conflict. There's miscommunication, there's misunderstanding. When you have those behaviors that's often mistaken for bullying behaviors. It's not, those behaviors are answered in a much different way. Like an interpersonal. Oh, I didn't know what you were saying that okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm glad we're okay. Let's move on. Bullying is a whole other category of behavior. JULIE ROYS 26:40 Hmm. Well, Emily, I am so glad that you stuck up for yourself. I'm so glad that you kept receipts. I always tell people, please keep receipts, because in my business, you don't have receipts, it's a he said, she said. It's really very difficult to make a case. But you were able to make a case. Since this ruling by the Department of Human Rights last December, I know there was another major ruling in July. Would you get us up to speed with what's going on? What happened in July with that ruling, and also, as you're looking to the future, what's coming up? EMILY HYLAND 27:18 I didn't go into this wanting to go to court. And so, I've made choices that I've allowed this to be much longer but allowed for much greater investigation by outside agencies. So going and taking my case to the Illinois Department of Human Rights; that's similar to the federal EEOC. And the Illinois Department of Rights did an investigation, they looked at the material, we had a long conversation between me and the pastors where they asked us all these questions. And then they came up with this report. So there was 10 charges. And back in December, they found that retaliation had substantial evidence. And so that charge was forwarded up to the higher agency, the Human Rights Commission. Well, the other dismissed charges, of which there were nine, I went back, looked at some of the evidence, had more evidence, put it on there, and resubmitted it through, it's similar to an appeals process, but you can get them to look at it again. And so the higher agency looked at these other nine dismissed charges, and they said, alright, we'll keep six of them stay dismissed. And some of them were just because of timing. But two additional charges were, in essence, overturned. So, they were originally dismissed, they are now considered substantially off to more going to trial. So those two are unequal pay and termination, the discharge. So, they joined up with retaliation, and it will be going to trial coming up in the next hopefully few months, maybe who knows, it just could drag on. But there's also an Illinois Department of Labor claim that took two full years to get through the review system. And that one is going to be going in front of a judge in the next three weeks, where they'll hear my evidence and then that of the churches and to look at unpaid wages. How much time was I being asked to do work outside of the hours I was ever going to get paid for? Which I think is one of those strange ways that bullying is normalized in churches, which is how we are asked to spend our time. That's our time. And I loved my church, and I wanted to do a lot for my church. But when it became a I don't get to have dinner with my family because I need to respond to an email that Dane needs turned around this very second. Looking at that evidence and saying how often that was happening with regularity is what we're going into which is that yeah, I think that was a really hard one because you want to have your church go well, but you also need those boundaries to say, Why are you asking me for work to be done on a Saturday or while I'm on vacation or on a holiday? That was one of those, I think, very covert ways of controlling and coercing me. That is so normalized because it can just be passed off as Oh, it was just off the top of his head. And you don't didn't need to do that then. I mean, of course, you could have waited until Monday. Oh, we'll see. JULIE ROYS 30:33 So, I understand the regular trial system. But I don't understand the system going through government agencies like this. What does the trial look like? And what are you hoping to get out of it? EMILY HYLAND 30:45 Well compared to say a trial in a circuit court, the Human Rights Commission have their own set of administrative judges. Just as the Department of Labor has their own administrative judges. But there's still a discovery process, there's still witnesses and depositions. And then it all goes in front of her as a trial. JULIE ROYS 31:03 So, the judge will then be making the decision, and then damages and so forth would be determined by the judge? EMILY HYLAND 31:10 Right, and the church should be saying thank you, because actually, this is by far the cheapest route, even if you're found guilty, there's no punitive damages. So, they can't slap the church and say, you should have done this, and here's a giant fine. There's no punitive damages. It's all pretty much easy calculus as to how much you were making how much of interest how much of you know, and there's limits on how much even of other damages. This was never about money. And this was about the fact that they broke the law, and they are unrepentant. And don't think they've done moments wrong for two and a half years. So, I'm excited that there's people who can read this and see like, oh, yeah, this was definitely wrong. And it's not hard to identify it. It's shocking that the people who are in the organization cannot see what is well visible to people who are reading the narrative, and also even people who are getting the highlights of it. JULIE ROYS 32:10 Well, it speaks to your character, that you've gone through this process, that you haven't sought to be punitive when you certainly could have, and instead are waiting for justice. And so, we join you in praying for truth and praying for justice. And we do pray that all of that will become clear as this moves through the system. So, Emily, and Paul, thank you so much. This has been a rich discussion. And I know it's been bought with a lot of blood, sweat and tears from you. And so, we acknowledge that. But thank you for the insights that you've gained through a very, very painful process. PAUL COUGHLIN 32:48 Thank you, Julie. Appreciate that. EMILY HYLAND 32:50 Yeah, and thank you so much for bringing attention to this because a lot of people are under the same burdens. And they can be in the same massively confused state that I was and feeling very isolated. Because that is how bullying works. It is so about isolating you from a reality that you're in and keeping you from speaking up and pushing back and being happy. JULIE ROYS 33:16 Again, thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And if you're a survivor of church hurt or abuse or you're a Christian leader who wants to learn how to protect against abuse and help survivors, I want to invite you to join me at our upcoming Restore conference. This two-day event October 13 and 14, at Judson University in Elgin, Illinois, is a very special time of healing and equipping. Joining me will be author Wade Molen, whose book we referenced in this podcast, along with Lori Anne Thompson, Sheila Wray Gregoire, Mary Demuth, and more. For more information, go to RESTORE2023.COM. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way, you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Do you ever wonder if what's happening in your marriage might classify as abuse? Sometimes a husband is guilty. Sometimes a wife is. Why do you need to know? So you can get the right kind of help. Learn five red flags that are tell-tale signs of abuse. And meet two experts who can guide your learning curve. Buy the Happily Even After book by Dannah GreshCALL SOMEONE:If you feel you need help navigating abuse, call someone.ATTEND:Join us for a marriage weekend in the Dominican Republic with Pete KuiperLISTEN:Bob and Dannah talk with Charlynn Steinkamp on Fight for Your MarriageWATCH:Lysa Terkuerst & Leslie Vernick discuss “difficult & destructive marriages on Therapy & TheologyDannah talks with Diane Langberg on Revive Our Hearts' GroundedRECOMMENDED INTENSIVES FOR COUPLES & INDIVIDUALS:River Tree Center with Phil Herdnon (Tennessee) CrossRoads Counseling of the Rockies (Colorado)Faithful&True  (Minnesota)Alongsides Care (Michigan)Be Free (Various Locations)

Join podcast host Lori Adams-Brown in this thrilling episode of A World of Difference as she uncovers the alarming events at the Southern Baptist Convention in New Orleans, discussing the controversy surrounding women pastors and the issue of abuse within the church. With personal experiences as a woman pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention and a victim of abuse, Lori candidly shares her reaction to what she witnessed. Be warned of potential triggering content. From discussing the use of NDAs to cover up abuse to the need to shift the basic ideas and theology behind the "umbrella authority" structure, this episode unpacks a range of issues affecting the church. With calls to action for listeners to support survivors, encourage whistleblowers and advocate for human rights, this podcast is a must-listen for those wanting to make a difference and bring about change. Let's set aside differences and come together to support survivors and create safer spaces for all.Long SummaryIn A World of Difference, Lori Adams-Brown addresses the Southern Baptist Convention and the difficult subject of abuse allegations and sexism within the church. As a survivor of abuse at the hands of Andy Wood, the successor to Rick Warren at Saddleback Church, Lori has a personal and emotional connection to the issue. She calls out specific men who she does not believe are effective allies and is disappointed by the treatment of women pastors. She invites everyone to join the conversation about making a difference, acknowledging the diversity of her audience. Guests including Dr. Kristen Kobaz Doumet and Dr. Diane Langberg suggest that the convention needs to take a systemic approach to combating abuse and sexism, including the need for women to be involved in diagnosing the problem. The speakers express their sadness regarding the devolution of the SBC from its core theology of the "priesthood of all believers" into limiting women's direct access to Jesus. The podcasts suggest that Echo and Saddleback Church bring in an organization specializing in investigating churches in the wake of abuse allegations to address abuse allegations at a mega church in Silicon Valley. The podcast encourages people to speak out, support survivors, and join the movement for positive change. The speaker emphasizes the need to find a better way to deal with a difficult situation and stop excusing, minimizing, and throwing hands up in the air. Listen to A World of Difference for a raw and powerful conversation about the struggles of making a difference in a male-centric denomination.Timestamps[00:00:02] Disturbing Aspects of the Southern Baptist Convention[00:04:06] Controversy over women pastors in Southern Baptist Convention[00:08:11] Grappling with Abuse and Women in the Church[00:11:35] Abuse Cover-ups in Saddleback and Echo Church[00:15:29] Challenges of Reporting Abuse in Christian Communities[00:19:17] Supporting Trauma Survivors and Female Representation[00:22:38] Questioning Use of Male Allies for Women[00:26:33] Power Abuse in Religion[00:30:15] Rick Warren's Damaging Leadership and Misogyny[00:33:57] Addressing Sexism and Racism in the SBC[00:37:38] Importance of Third-Party Investigation in Abuse Allegations[00:41:30] Call to Ban NDAs and Remove Abuser in Southern Baptist Convention[00:45:19] Empowering Listeners for ChangeEpisode LinksLori on Hagar's Voice podcastLori on Bodies Behind the Bus podcastWomen in the Church series Best Quotes[00:10:12] Women don't need permission from any man, church, or denomination to use a gift

Boz Tchividjian, attorney and advocate for abuse survivors joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast to answer your questions and talk about fighting against abuse in the church. What's his origin story as an attorney? The origins of GRACE. Thoughts on the Us v Them messaging from many churches. NDAs Who is the Ronan Farrow or Jody Kantor of  #churchtoo reporting? Who did Billy Graham vote for? (Just kidding. Boz didn't completely clear this one up for us!) (This episode originally aired in May 2022) Links: Sexual Abuse Attorney For Victims | Boz Tchividjian Sexual Abuse Lawyer (bozlawpa.com) https://bozlawpa.com GRACE: GRACE (netgrace.org) https://www.netgrace.org Diane Langberg at the Caring Well Conference: Suffering and the Heart of God: How Trauma Destroys and Christ Restores - Diane Langberg on Vimeo https://vimeo.com/365071832 Boz at the Caring Well Conference: Winter Inside the Church and Hope for Spring - Boz Tchividjian on Vimeo https://vimeo.com/365039986   Related Episodes: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com/2023/02/22/71-in-the-dark-spiritual-and-ethical-implications-of-ramsey-solutions-updated-employee-agreement/ https:///untangledfaithpodcast.com/2023/03/01/72-unraveling-abuse-in-the-church-pete-singer-on-third-party-investigations-trauma-informed-practices/Bo Support the show: Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/untangledfaith This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For more information and for 10% off your first month, visit Faithful Counseling- https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled Where you can find me: Youtube channel- https://youtube.com/channel/UCPfFk-I6QShXXvEpSFaJOvg https://untangledfaithpodcast.com https://instagram.com/untangledfaith  https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz https://twitter.com/faithuntangled https://twitter.com/amyfritz   Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producers: Michele Pjanic Phil and Susan Perdue Pam Forsythe Chelle Taylor

Redeeming Power with Diane LangbergPsychologist and author Dr. Diane Langberg joins our podcast to discuss the themes in her book, Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church. Dr. Langberg who has been working with survivors of trauma and abuse, clergy, and caregivers for almost 50 years, desires to increase awareness and understanding of power and its abuse so those who have been abandoned by broken systems of power can be defended and protected.Defending dysfunctional and abusive systems"When we think about a system of any kind, whether it's a government or some kind of organization, or the church, which is a system, it's people standing together usually for a particular goal or purpose or whatever.And so what the people want to do is maintain the system because of what it gives them. So if you come along and say, the person who's running that system is a wolf and is devouring the sheep, nobody wants to hear that. Because if that's the case, then the thing that they believe in that keeps them safe isn't safe. That's terrifying." - Diane LangbergIn this conversation Dr. Langberg discusses the purposes, dynamics, systems, and proper place of power, as well as the ways in which it can deform and distort, noting that “our responses to the vulnerable expose who we are.”And she noted that while “much of Christendom today seems less interested in seeing as Jesus saw…and far more interested in gaining power,” there is also the invitation and opportunity before us to “cross divides, step out of high positions, and reach out with love to those who are vulnerable, whose power is little or trampled, bestowing benedictions as we go.” We trust you'll find this conversation inspiring and hopeful.This podcast is an edited version of our Online Conversation from July 2021. You can access the full conversation with transcript here.Learn more about Diane Langberg.Authors and books mentioned in the conversation:George HerbertRelated Trinity Forum Readings:Crisis-Ready Leadership CollectionRelated Conversations:Leadership in Tumultuous Times with Ron C. WhiteLincoln in Private with Ron C. WhiteCrisis Ready LeadershipTo listen to this or any of our episodes in full, visit ttf.org/podcast and to join the Trinity Forum Society and help make content like this possible, join the Trinity Forum SocietySpecial thanks to Ned Bustard for our podcast artwork.

Have you ever heard someone pressure extra-biblical standards by saying, "Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?" Have you ever struggled with the fear of not being able to do enough to please God? Or fear of not knowing how to please Him? Have you ever grappled with deep shame—feelings of being worthless, unwanted, even unlovable? Within hyper-fundamentalism, fear tactics and shaming are often resorted to as a way of enforcing strict standards. This can wreak havoc on members' view of God, themselves, and their understanding of salvation. In this month's episode, we will look deeper into how these tactics distort the gospel with fear and shame. We'll discuss overarching concepts, share personal stories, and examine nearly two dozen sayings that are real-life examples of how the gospel is skewed by those who are zealous to enforce strict standards. Our special guest for this month's panel discussion is Tracy Bowen, a fellow Berean Holiness volunteer. Tracy grew up in the Conservative Holiness Movement, but today she and her husband serve in full-time ministry at their non-denominational church in Florida. Also on the panel are Bethany and Andrew (both from Oneness Apostolic backgrounds), and Natalie (from a Trinitarian Holiness background). We're excited to come together and share how God is transforming our understanding of the gospel through the study of His Word. Thank you for joining us as we rebuild theology in light of God's grace, love, and the true meaning of holiness! "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..." —Romans 1:16 Resources: Find Tracy at The Hard Work of Hope on Facebook and Instagram "What is Scrupulosity? - Ryan Watters, Amber Jones, and Nate Davison" on GraceStory Podcast "Healing Religious Trauma with Dr. Diane Langberg" on Truth Trauma Theology The "Not Ashamed" podcast is brought to you by Berean Holiness. You can find more of our content at: Bereanholiness.com Thanks for following on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube Contact us at: bereanholiness@gmail.com Thank you for leaving us a rating and review! We appreciate your feedback.

Contact AmyWe live in a cancel culture world, so it is wise always to investigate motives for podcast episodes like this one. So many are walking away from their faith, and many times it is God's people, even His servants, that are driving people away from Jesus, the Star of the Story. Amy Fritz (Host of the Untangled Faith Podcast) joins us to share her experience with Dave Ramsey Solutions.  As the wife of an employee who saw and experienced firsthand some abuse of power at Dave Ramsey Solutions, she also walks us through her forgiveness journey. But Jesus. These days, Amy carefully shines a light on the abuse of power. Dr. Diane Langberg is a huge part of her healing story. It is our prayer that Jesus that He alone is glorified in this conversation. "Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my soul be acceptable in thy sight"About Our Guest:Amy is the founder/visionary/host of the Untangled Faith Podcast. She lives near Nashville with her husband, three children, and two dogs. She loves to read, write, talk, and connect people to other people and resources. She loves Jesus and hates spiritual abuse.The Untangled Faith Podcast is a place for those who have been hurt or disillusioned in their faith journey. It's for the wounded resistors who want to hold on to their faith while untangling it from all that is not good and true.You ARE:SEEN KNOWN HEARD LOVED VALUED

Dr.  Diane Langberg, Christian psychologist,  international speaker, and author joins the podcast today.  Dr. Langberg embodies and exemplifies what we do and why.Dr. Langberg is an expert in the areas of trauma, abuse, church,  power, and Christendom.  She discusses how the church has a long way to go in dealing with abuse and trauma in the church. Dr. Langberg discusses how churches and leaders are seduced and deceived by power.  She further elaborates on how this deception ultimately leads to the church creating victims.  Tune in to hear Dr. Langberg discuss how we need to be careful that we are following Christ and starting with Him in all that we do.Information for Dr. Langberg: https://www.dianelangberg.com/https://twitter.com/DianeLangberghttps://www.dianelangberg.com/shop-books/Information for Dr. Gadson:https://www.drmoniquesmithgadson.com/Link to order “Finding Hope in A Dark Place”:https://lexhampress.com/search?query=Finding%20Hope%20in%20a%20Dark%20Place%3A%20Facing%20Loneliness%2C%20Depression%2C%20and%20Anxiety%20with%20the%20Power%20of%20Grace&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=allhttps://www.amazon.com/Finding-Hope-Dark-Place-Loneliness/dp/1683596358/ref=rvi_sccl_7/138-1785751-1148333?pd_rd_w=decCb&content-id=amzn1.sym.f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_p=f5690a4d-f2bb-45d9-9d1b-736fee412437&pf_rd_r=GMEBCA5ZB54MM98HHN5F&pd_rd_wg=pwctW&pd_rd_r=0cf054c6-aedd-427d-ac2a-563757407228&pd_rd_i=1683596358&psc=1Follow us on social media: https://www.facebook.com/And-The-Church-Said-Podcast-106848090932637https://instagram.com/drmoniquesmithgadson?igshid=1bmt2hei1j6i8https://twitter.com/DrMoSmithGadsonSupport And The Church Said:Cash App:  https://cash.app/$andthechurchsaidPayPal:  https://paypal.me/andthechurchsaid?locale.x=en_US

After spending her twenties running away from the church, Robin Wootton finds hope through a PCA church. And then it all started to crumble. Robin's husband (a PCA pastor) was fired while the COVID pandemic raged. In the subsequent months and years, she's given a lot of consideration to the false neutrality of the church's leadership. "We're never called to be neutral." In this episode, you will learn the following: 1. How the church saved Robin Wootton and her experience of the PCA. 2. The concept of a "third way" or "both sides" approach and Peacemaking  in the church. 3. The consequences of Robin Wootton and her husband's attempt to challenge power dynamics in the PCA.   "Laboring in a context where the middle ground has the most power, we're always going to be pitched as the extreme on one side. Someone like me will always be seen as an extremist."   "If you can picture a place where Tim Keller is seen as an extreme progressive liberal, then you understand the context I'm in."  "Are there people who are laboring in good faith who see things I can't see?"   Links: Robin's book: Carrying Casseroles on Motorcycles: The Risk and Rewards of Balancing the Church https://amzn.to/3HmnL04 Robin's website: the wife & times of Reverend Wootton – a blog about faith, hope, and mostly love (wordpress.com)- https://robinwootton.wordpress.com Redeeming Power by Dr. Diane Langberg https://amzn.to/3RnAEM0   Related Episodes: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com/2022/09/21/56-the-reshaping-of-the-american-church-guest-bob-smietana/ Support the show: Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/untangledfaith This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For more information and for 10% off your first month, visit Faithful Counseling- https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled Where you can find me: Youtube channel- https://youtube.com/channel/UCPfFk-I6QShXXvEpSFaJOvg https://untangledfaithpodcast.com https://instagram.com/untangledfaith  https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz https://twitter.com/faithuntangled https://twitter.com/amyfritz   Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producers: Michele Pjanic Phil and Susan Perdue Pam Forsythe Chelle Taylor

Dr. Wade Mullen is the author of Something's Not Right: Decoding the Hidden Tactics of Abuse – and Freeing Yourself From Its Power.Dr. Mullen is a world renowned expert on abuse in the church. He served ten years in pastoral ministry and then five years as a seminary M.Div. program director and assistant professor before transitioning to full-time research and writing, consulting, speaking, and advocacy. Wade earned a Ph.D. in Leadership Studies and completed a dissertation titled “Impression Management Strategies Used by Evangelical Organizations in the Wake of an Image-threatening Event.” You can get that dissertation for free here.He founded Pellucid Consulting in the Fall of 2021 to provide consulting and independent assessment services for institutions.He started a Substack Newsletter called Pellucid in the Fall of 2021 where I write about the ways in which deception is used to abuse and cover up abuse and how leaders and institutions can act with integrity and speak truthfully. The content is free, but there are also paid options for those who want to support my work.He speaks on occasion at events related to the subject of abuse and institutional response and participates as a guest on podcasts. You can listen to the podcasts here.He continues to engage in research efforts to better understand abuse within Christian cultures and institutions. I'm currently working on preparing a manuscript for a second book.He has also been serving when needed as an institutional response specialist with GRACE since 2020, assisting them primarily with institutional assessments.Wade's work in the local church first introduced him to the needs of abuse victims and the potential for institutional betrayal and trauma when those who are supposed to protect the victim(s) choose to protect the abuser(s). He also learned the challenge of advocating from within and how to confront the system when necessary. His personal story is told in a profile piece by Sojourner's Magazine and in a talk he gave at the Restore conference in Chicago.Resources Dr. Mullen mentioned:Meeting the Ethical Challenges of Leadership by Craig E. JohnsonBlind to Betrayal: Why We Fool Ourselves We Aren't Being Fooled by Jennifer FreydNarcissm and the Systems it Breeds video of Dr. Diane Langberg's presentationWhen Narcissism Comes to Church by Dr. Chuck DeGroatA Church Called TOV by Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerRedeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church by Dr. Diane Langberg

Top of 2022 // Our #2 Most Engaged Episode of 2022Most pastors do not enter the ministry with the intention of misusing their power and authority, and yet instances of abuse occur. In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by internationally recognized psychologist and counselor, Dr. Diane Langberg, as they discuss some of the unrecognized trappings of power and how to develop a healthy understanding of ministry leadership.Dig deeper into this conversation: Find the free Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, all resource links, and more at http://PastorServe.org/networkSome key takeaways from this conversation:Diane Langberg on why some pastors work harder at protecting the institution of Church rather than the people of the local church: “Part of what happens, and has certainly happened in the American church, is that we see ourselves as serving the system, rather than children who are called to obedience to Jesus Christ.”Diane Langberg on a key component pastors need in their lives to help maintain healthy leadership: “I would encourage all those in leadership to have people in their lives with whom they can speak the truth, and who will say it back to them. And a place where they can be safe…. In terms of understanding ourselves, we need other voices to help us do that.”Diane Langberg on the danger of pastors misusing their God-given authority: “Yes, we're created in the image of God and therefore have power and authority in this world and with others, but it must look like him. It isn't there to feed our goals, our higher numbers, our fame, all of those things, which is where it gets very messed up.”----------------Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.Visit http://PastorServe.org/network to find the entire Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide (Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our amazing guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your regular staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.)Love well, live well, and lead well  --------Complimentary 1-hour Coaching Session for Pastors http://PastorServe.org/freesessionFollow PastorServe LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook Connect with Jason Daye LinkedIn | Instagram

It's been 2000 years. Enough already.Abusing power is an ancient genre of sin — and using religion to justify abuse is perhaps the oldest trick in that book. We know it won't stop with this podcast episode, but, here we go anyway. Katelyn and Roxy address some of the difficulties of identifying spiritual abuse (no, it isn't just "church hurt") and examine how it has manifested in a few more recent and notable scandals. Veteran psychologist and expert on religious trauma, Diane Langberg, joins the episode and helps put the "pastoral" back in the pulpit.GUEST:Diane Langberg is a psychologist with more than 50 years of experience working with trauma survivors. She's the author most recently of "Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this week's episode, Lisa welcomes Dr. Diane Langberg. She is an internationally recognized psychologist and counselor with 47 years of experience. She has authored or co-authored numerous books, including Counseling Survivors of Sexual Abuse, On the Threshold of Hope, Suffering and the Heart of God: How Trauma Destroys and Christ Restores, and most recently, Redeeming Power. This is a powerful and emotion-packed episode not for the faint of heart. You will be encouraged and challenged and we hope it will be a blessing in your life. Mentioned in the show:World ReliefMinistry Strong InstagramConnect with Dr. Langberg:Redeeming Power BookWebsite

On this episode of Melody and Friends, Melody is joined by renowned Christian Psychologist, Dr. Diane Langberg, to take a deep dive into how the church handles women experiencing trauma. Diane speaks about her work in the church and how worship leaders can find ways to work well with women who are walking through trauma. She also shares the best ways to vet a church, pastor or councelor to ensure that if you are a woman going through trauma, you will be able to place yourself in a place of safety and healing. She describes what trauma can look like for women but also ways that churches and pastors can either raise women up and provide healing, or exacerbate it, and how to tell the difference between the two. Who is Diane Langberg? Dr. Diane Langberg is the leading Christian psychologist with expertise in trauma recovery. Her teaching has taken her to South America, the Caribbean, Africa, Asia, and Europe. Her books on sexual abuse remain popular with both clinicians and victims. She joined Missio Seminary as a Clinical Faculty member (Clinical Faculty members are practitioners who also lecture and train) and has a leadership role in the shaping and delivery of the Global Trauma Recovery Institute. Dr. Langberg is Chair of the Executive Board of the American Association of Christian Counselors, serves on the board of GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment), and is Co-Chair of the Trauma Advisory Council for the American Bible Society. She is the recipient of the Distinguished Alumna for Professional Achievement from Taylor University, the American Association of Christian Counselor's Caregiver Award, and the Philadelphia Council of Clergy's Christian Service Award. Things We Talk About In This Episode: How can churches and ministry leaders provide health and safety to women who are experiencing trauma? What are the steps that we should have to assist our friends through trauma or abuse? How can victims of trauma properly vet their churches, pastors or councelors to ensure that they will receive the best help possible? What tools can be provided to educate worship leaders and the general public with proper knowledge of what trauma looks like? To learn more about Diane's journey, books, resources, and more, please visit the link here: www.dianelangberg.com Check out Diane's Podcast here: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/ Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Melody and Friends! If you haven't already please take the time to leave us a rating and review on our iTunes page as it helps us get more great episodes like this to you!

What a true honor to have Dr. Diane Langberg on the show today. Her book, Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church, has taught me so much about trauma, abuse, and power. In this conversation, Dr. Langberg teaches us about paying attention to our own power, misusing that power, and balancing love for our local church with accountability. If abuse is a part of your story, I would encourage you to listen with someone who loves you. This conversation may be tender to you, so I wanted you to know before you listened so you could care for yourself and your heart well. And, for our #miniBFFs, this show may be a bit much for their little ears. . . . . Sign up to receive the AFD Week In Review email and ask questions to future guests! #thatsoundsfunpodcast . . . . . Thank you to our sponsors! BetterHelp Online Therapy: Visit betterhelp.com/thatsoundsfun today to get 10% off your first month. Athletic Greens: Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com/soundsfun. Stitch Fix: Sign up today at StitchFix.com/THATSOUNDSFUN to get $20 off your first purchase. Everlywell: Everlywell is offering a special discount of 20% off an at-home lab test at everlywell.com/thatsoundsfun.

Justin Brierley was joined by four guests and hundreds of attendees for a live webinar event 'Falling From Grace: Addressing power, leadership and abuse in the church'.   Panellists: Abuse survivor and advocate Rachael Denhollander; author, theologian and former RZIM vice-president Amy Orr-Ewing; Rise And Fall Of Mars Hill Podcast presenter Mike Cosper; and trauma and abuse specialist Diane Langberg. Justin Humphreys of the leading independent Christian safeguarding charity Thirtyone:eight also joins the conversation.   For the resources from Thirtyone:eight: https://thirtyoneeight.org/unbelievable Rachael Denhollander: https://rachaeldenhollander.com/ Amy Orr-Ewing: https://www.amyorr-ewing.com/ Mike Cosper: https://mikecosper.net/podcasts/rise-and-fall Diane Langberg: https://www.dianelangberg.com/   • Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast: https://pod.link/267142101 • More shows, free eBook & newsletter: https://premierunbelievable.com • For live events: http://www.unbelievable.live • For online learning: https://www.premierunbelievable.com/training-and-events • Support us in the USA: http://www.premierinsight.org/unbelievableshow • Support us in the rest of the world: https://www.premierunbelievable.com/donate

Dr. Diane Langberg and Amber discuss how her 50 year career working with trauma and abuse victims began, the similarity she encountered between veterans of war and abused women, the current reckoning of power abuse in the church, and pastors as shepherds. Listening To Abuse and Trauma Survivors Questions Discussed: (3:20) Your career as a Christian psychologist began 50 years ago. And for those who are not familiar with your work, would you share your experience with your supervisor years ago who advised you not to listen to a woman who said, "My father did weird things to me"? (7:07) You began listening to the trauma and PTSD women and veterans were experiencing long before the term was used and the diagnosis existed. What were those first 10-20 years like? (8:38) What are some of the biggest lessons you've learned about treating people who have been abused? Have PTSD? Survivors?  (10:10) Not only has your work included women and veterans, but pastors, leaders around the world. What have you learned about abuse and trauma on a global scale? (13:27) There were decades where pastors, clergy, church leaders who were accused of sexual abuse would have been referred to as having an affair Why is that not an appropriate term to use when pastor, clergy, youth leader, church leader has a sexual encounter with someone in their care? Why is that abuse vs. an affair? (19:08) Do you think the current rise in church abuse is just a trend or a genuine problem you see in our churches? Are people jumping on the #metoo, #churchtoo movement and it will fade? (22:54) How can you tell in a he said, she said situation who is the victim and who is the abuser?  (26:05) What type of work does G.R.A.C.E. do? How are they helping promote healthy and safe environments in our churches? (29:10) As we close, what do you see as the day in, day out way to move forward, free and unified in Christ? SHOW NOTES cont. Resources Mentioned (affiliate links): netgrace.org FREE Spiritual Hurt Resource page Book: Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church by Dr. Diane Langberg Related Episodes: 183: Lina AbuJamra | Fractured Faith 184: Amy Fritz | Untangling Faith After Ramsey Solutions 185: Katelyn Beaty | Celebrities for Jesus 106: Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer | Church Culture: Goodness vs. Abuse of Power 94: Mary DeMuth | Hope After Sexual Abuse Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Guest Bios Show Transcript It's perhaps one of the most painful questions that survivors ask: Where is God when there's abuse? Or, where was God when I was abused? In this powerful message from the Restore Conference, internationally recognized trauma expert and psychologist, Dr. Diane Langberg, seeks to answer this difficult question. But she openly admits, “I don't know why God allows abuse.

Guest Bios Show Transcript Abuse has become epidemic in the church—and so has cover-up. But what causes abuse in the church? And how can we stop it? In this special episode of The Roys Report, author, psychologist, and trauma expert, Dr. Diane Langberg, answers these questions with uncommon insight and clarity.  In the opening talk of Restore 2022, Dr.