Podcast appearances and mentions of zach don't

Ade and Zach sit down and have an entertaining discussion geared around Black History Month, and they both share their experiences in being frustrated by an employer's mismanagement of the celebration. Ade also talks a little bit about the body butter company she started, and she and Zach spend some time reflecting on how far Living Corporate has come since its launch in early 2018. Thank you all so much for your support! We owe it to you.Ade's body butter company soft-launches soon, so make sure to follow them on Twitter and Instagram. Congratulations, Ade!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. And it's not just Zach. Ade: Ayyyye. It's Ade.Zach: It's Ade alsooo, yo, and we here, man. Look, it's Black History Month. It's 2020. You know, January was big trash, so we're just gonna start over. We're gonna count February as January--nah, just... 2020 is gonna have 11 months, that's all.Ade: Yeah, let's do that. I like that idea.Zach: Yeah, we're just gonna start over. So yeah, you know, it's Black History Month. Whole fresh new decade, and, you know, a few episodes have dropped. Downloads are popping, by the way. Like, they're really good, Ade. The numbers look good.Ade: Yay, that's awesome.Zach: Yeah, pretty good. So we both have a lot of stuff going on. What's up in your world?Ade: God, what isn't up? No, [laughs] I'm just really enjoying the ride. I got--you know, my first bit of code at my job was deployed successfully, went really well. I panicked a little bit near the end of the sprint there, but I got it all the way through, so I'm excited about that. I started my butter company, and my soft launch is February 10th, so I'm also really excited about that, just getting the opportunity--Zach: Hold on. Butter company? Like, what's up? Like, you making animal butter? Or, like, cooking butter? Or--Ade: [laughs] No, although somebody gave me the idea to do that. You know I love cooking and I love experimenting in the kitchen, so that was an idea that hadn't occurred to me. But this is the year of action, so I took action. [laughs] So now I have a company--obviously besides, like, this one--but I'm really excited. I've been connected with a bunch of really great folks within the, like, creative community, and I'm excited to see where this goes. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, hold on. We don't have to rush over to my stuff. Excited for you, congratulations on moving in action, moving in intentionality, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] That's great, you know? But anyway, you asked me about myself. Yeah, so look, things are going great. Really focused on getting ready for my wife and I's first child coming in, like... I mean, if she doesn't come early--if she doesn't come early it will be in, like, 6 weeks.Ade: Whoo!Zach: Right?Ade: Oh, my gosh. You're so close to the finish line. And I would like to reiterate here that Ade makes a fantastic first time. I'm just saying.Zach: It's great. I love that, 'cause I'd like to reiterate... [haha sfx] You know? [both laughing] Ade: You are so wildly disrespectful.Zach: Not at all, not at all. I just stay ready, you know? I just stay ready. I think for me it's, like, focusing on, like, the radical change that's about to happen in our family, in our lives, then, like, just doing, like, a reassessment of just everything else around me, right? Because, like, I think initially--and I'm sure most people who are preparing for children, they go through this too--you're kind of like, "Oh," you know, they'll just kind of fit into your plans, and I'm like--as I, like, kind of pause and think about all of the things I have going on, I'm like, "Dang, wait. Certain things are gonna have to shift and change." Like, it's not gonna just be like, "Oh, I'm picking up a new hobby," or starting a new podcast, like, this is a whole new person, a whole person that's about to be, like, active, actively involved and will have active present needs from myself and my partner for at least the next 18 years, right? If not the rest of their lives. So it's like, what does it look like? So y'all, this is not me alluding to the fact that the podcast is about to stop or anything like that, it's just more about life. Like, you know, talking to other fathers who had to make career decisions and think about, like, what did it look like for them to make adjustments, how do you communicate with your teams about being a dad and, like, the new responsibilities as a parent? Those are things I'm really excited to, like, explore and, like, really discover over the next few--you know, over the next months and stuff like that as I get ready for paternity leave and all that kind of stuff. Like, really just, like, being really clear with, like, what does it look like to, like, live in this new world? 'Cause, like, I don't know. Like, I'm 30 years old, so it's not like I'm--I'm not old, so I still have things--Ade: [whispering] Yes, you are.Zach: That's jacked up.Ade: [laughs] I too got shots in my pocket.Zach: That's crazy. I see you. But the thing about it is, like, I still have a few decades more of career to have, and so it's like I don't want to just, like, kind of sit on my laurels because I have kids. Like, what does it look like to still progress and have a career and, like, develop and do all these things while at the same time being a very present and attentive and engaged father? So normal stuff. Like, I think it's a challenge. It's a good problem to have. It's something that is--it's a problem created by growth, so to me that's a--I count that as a good problem. So that's, like, the main--the big, big thing, then the second thing is just, like, continuing to slow down and focus on, like, mental health. Like, my own personal mental health and, like, my mental wellness, right? I think the more and more people I--especially black men--that I talk to who are transitioning out of their twenties, you know, it's like--I've talked to more and more folks who are, black men, who, like, this is the time when they go to counseling, right? Like, if you haven't gone already. And I've gone at certain points in time. We did pre-martial counseling. I've done, like, personal counseling as I got ready to get married, but I haven't really ever gone to, like, see someone, like, a true therapist, right? Like, a true, like, psychiatrist. I think that there's a certain stigma around mental health, right, for black people, and I would say particularly for black men, and so it's, like, getting comfortable with talking to people and, like, really getting help and just talking through things. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, like, the road of life has all of these different bumps and potholes. You're gonna have mileage and just damage and disalignment that you just need help with just because of the reality of life and the trauma that life brings, especially in the context of white supremacy and patriarchy. So shoot... and then the last thing, y'all, I think I'm just really excited about, again, like, Living Corporate. Like, yo, we got featured on Forbes, man.Ade: Oh, my God. I just--Zach: What is it? So be honest. When you saw it, what did you--Ade: Okay, I just want to put some context. I am not--I don't scream very often.Zach: Did you scream for real?Ade: At the top of my lungs.Zach: Did you really?Ade: I really did. [Zach laughs] And here's why. Like, it genuinely is a life goal for me to make it on Forbes' 30 Under 30, so when you sent that link to me, I was like, "Surely he is just sharing a link of podcasts that we should emulate or, you know, link up with these people and get a sense of what they do, how they do it, how well they're do--" Nope, there's our name. I was like, "Holy--" I was on top of the Moon. It was a moment for me, okay, personally.Zach: I was curious. Well, 'cause I texted you and we didn't, like--'cause we didn't, like, really react in the moment. Like, I reacted. I texted you. I was happy. But you were in the middle of your work day and, like, I had some time in my day, so I was able to step away and, like, actually hit you, right? And so when you--[laughs] But you didn't, like, react, so I was like, "I wonder if she really cared about that." Like, not that you didn't care, but did it do anything for you. But for me I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, I was shocked. Ade: Absolutely. No, I need you to--I just want to, again, reiterate the fact that I don't scream on a regular basis. It's not my personality type to just be out here in these streets wildin'--at least in that way, 'cause I do be wildin'. I'ma just be honest.Zach: Right, you do. That's true.Ade: [laughs] You didn't need to agree with me. I was just--Zach: You know, you put it out there. It's on Twitter.Ade: Okay. All right, this is fine. But really, it was such an honor, and it was something that I would not in the--I mean, if we, like, rewind a year and a half or whatever--it was actually about this time two years ago. Are we two years [?]? Wait a minute.Zach: Yeah, it's been, like, two years.Ade: Holy [bleep?]Zach: Right? It's been nuts.Ade: [laughs] I really need you to understand that I'm literally just coming to the realization that Living Corporate is almost two years old. That's wild. That's so wild to me. We need sweatshirts and hoodies.Zach: We need merch, man. We need merch. We should really drop, like, little collections. Like Popeye's.Ade: We should. We should, like, go through and figure out what our favorites from our guests and from our hosts are and then, like, make some sweatshirts, 'cause I would wear my sayings. That's all I'm saying.Zach: You would wear your own sayings?Ade: Absolutely. What? Absolutely.Zach: Nah, that's the definition of a narcissist. You'd put your own quotes on clothing and walk around in them?Ade: Uh-huh, I would.Zach: Wow.Ade: I would. You know why? Because I have some fire, fire sayings. Zach: [laughs] That's crazy. You do, but it's like... you can't say that though. Like, that's crazy.Ade: What? No. 2020 is the year of big upping yourself.Zach: Wow. You know what though? I respect it, 'cause, you know what I'm saying, if no one else is gonna wear your sayings, you may as well.Ade: Exactly. Precisely. Kobe was a fan of big upping myself, and so am I.Zach: He was. That's true though. You know what? That's a good point.Ade: And the way that I do see it is, like--being a little bit more serious about the subject, 'cause I was kind of making fun of the entire concept, but sincerely, like, we preach that you have to be your own best advocate, right? And we preach that you have to kind of take stock and make sure that you are keeping records of your good deeds when you do them so that you can be able to speak to your managers, your peers and your supervisors, all of these things, but when you are an entrepreneur or you are an individual contributor or anything of the sort, you have to do the same, right? Like, you have to be too, and this was something that I had to get comfortable with. And I'm still not comfortable with it, to be frank. Like, I handed people an 8-ounce jar of my product, and they were like, "Well, how much is this?" And I'm, like, waffling around, like, "I kind of don't want to ask anybody for money for this," but it's a product, right? But being able to, like, stand on your two feet and be like, "No, this is a thing that I've done, and I'm worth the time and the investment that you're going to make in my product or in me as a person." It's all a part of being confident in all of the work that you've done. You're not asking people to buy into a single thing. You're asking them to buy into you as an idea, and if you're not willing to, you know, kind of say it with your chest, as Africans will say. [laughs] If you're not willing to say it with your chest, then who's supposed to be willing to stand behind you and say it with their chest? You see what I'm saying?Zach: Yeah, straight up. Like, you have to be willing to advocate for yourself and, like, promote yourself, because--I mean, the Internet is such a big and busy place and, like, the world is so big and busy that, like, yeah, there--and I was just having a conversation with a guest that I will not reveal yet because I like guests being a surprise week-to-week, but a guest I was having a conversation with, we were talking about networking and how, like, the world is connected, but it's connected via a series of, like, closed loops. So it's not like you can just, like--the world is connected, but you still have to, like, be in certain circles for things to even get started, right? And so, like, the idea of like, "Oh, I'ma just do this thing over here in this corner, and then if it's good it will eventually get seen." It's like that's not really true. Like, you have to really actively promote whatever it is that you got going on. Like, period. That's just the way it is. But yeah, to your earlier point about, you know, it being two years and Living Corporate being around almost two years, right? So, like, April will make two years--or is it June? Golly, I can't remember. Anyway, some time--Ade: I think it was April, but we definitely had, like, our inaugural Skype or, what was it, Google chat in February.Zach: There it is. You're right, we did. We did have our inaugural Google chat in February just to talk about things, and then, you know, we kicked everything off a couple months later, but it's crazy 'cause, like--and shout-out to Dr. Gassam, who wrote the piece for us, the article for us, and shouted us out and, like, you know, put us up as #1. I don't know what those little numbers mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, 'cause I really--what I was really shocked about was everybody else on that list, everybody on that list are huge. Like, shout-out to Side Hustle Pro. Shout-out to Code Switch, dawg. Shout-out to Myleik. I was like, "Yo, we're up here with Code Switch? Myleik?"Ade: Code Switch.Zach: Code Switch! And yo, shout-out to NPR and Code Switch, because I remember when we first started thinking about, like, Living Corporate, like, as a podcast, we were like, "What are the ones that really inspire us?" And me and at least one other person was like, "Code Switch," 'cause, like, the format is so fire. Like, shout-out to y'all, man. So, like, even if anybody--for anybody to think about us in the same vein as them, like, I feel like that's a win on its own, 'cause that lets me know--that affirms me that, like, we're achieving [against?] the vision that we had initially set out, but it's crazy 'cause there's been, like, a lot of ups and downs and, like, a lot of stuff going on, but, you know, [Paul Rudd look at us sfx, Ade laughs].Ade: I'm just over here, like, giddy and over the Moon. Yeah, no, and it's funny because you're not the only person who sent me that link, and that's, like, the other thing that [?].Zach: Oh, you didn't tell me that.Ade: No, like, sincerely, you weren't the only one that sent me that link. My friend sent me that link, and I actually encountered someone--shout-out to you, you know who you are--who I literally had just, like, been talking to him. He's transitioning into tech. I just, like, try to make sure I'm giving people advice and help and checking in with people that I know are making the same transition, and I reached out to him, and he was like, "Wait, are you Ade from Living Corporate?" Zach: What?Ade: 'Cause he literally met me from an entirely separate context. And so to be able to encounter someone who, you know, knows of us and knows me in my best light, not, you know--clears throat--anyway. Zach: Dawg, I'ma tell you something. One day--one day, y'all... hey, listen, y'all. Some of y'all are, like, listening to this with a confused face. Trust me, I'm confused too, but one day we're gonna come on this podcast and we're gonna have a real conversation about the crazy life that Ade lives, 'cause why would you come on here and say, "Yeah, this Forbes article, and someone who knew me, and not in my best--" And then this awkward pause. I hear you audibly gulp in the mic. Like, what? [laughs] Y'all, y'all understand the type of work--like, y'all understand the team I have, right? Like, that's crazy. Y'all, don't treat me like--yeah, now y'all know what I'm doing with. What kind of weirdness is that? Go ahead. This person who hasn't seen you at your best and sent you the Forbes link. What?Ade: [sighs] I'ma just move forward. [Zach laughs] No, no, no.Zach: I wonder, is Ade the Mal of this podcast? 'Cause I'm certainly Joe Budden. I realize that. But Ade might--Ade might be the Mal. She might be the Mal of this podcast. She's, like, a little too cool to pod, but then she'll say [?] things.Ade: I demand we move forward. [both laugh]Zach: Goodness, gracious. Go ahead. Keep going.Ade: Anyway, so I'm just really grateful for, you know, where we are, and--first of all I want to give Zach and our writing team and our production team and our social team all the props, like, every single prop that exists, because you have been put in blood, sweat, tears, money, effort, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum into this, and it shows in the quality of our partners, our work, our podcast, our newsletters. Like, everything. Like, you've been really intentional about the direction that Living Corporate would take, and I really respect that, and you are by far one of the most aggressive--but you're not gonna beat me up though--type energies [?].Zach: [laughs] It's true though. It's true. [both laughing]Ade: And Living Corporate has enjoyed that energy, enjoyed the fruits of that energy.Zach: I do have "but you're not gonna beat me up though" type energy, and I've come to peace with that. It's true.Ade: It's my favorite thing about you, and also, like, simultaneously your worst quality when you turn it on me, [both laugh] but--[to this day sfx]Zach: [laughing] Oh, my gosh. It's true. But this is the thing, you gotta have "you ain't gonna beat me up though" energy, because boy, the world will beat you up, boy. The world out here tryna come--it coming for your neck, dude. I mean, every day I'm over here like [Cardi B blatblat sfx] with these haters, man. I'm trying to, like, stay alive out here. I gotta fight every day. Every day. All my life, literally trying to fight and then at the same time avoid--[Law and Order sfx]--like, at the same time. [both laugh] I be so aggravated, man. Do you know the fine line you have to walk as a black man? Man, I'm telling you, being black is so exhausting. Being black and conscious, like--James Baldwin, man. He was not lying, dawg. Not lying at all, because you are in a rage all of the time, and you're over here trying to, like, stand up and just speak to the fact that you're worth something. Listen... eugh. You're over here trying to literally raise your voice loud enough to be heard and respected, but not too loud, right?Ade: 'Cause [?], and here y'all come.Zach: Here y'all come, without at the same time going to jail. So it's, like, this fine line that you have to walk. It's just nuts. Anyway, nah, I appreciate that, Ade. And, you know, I appreciate you as well. You know, you're here. The biggest--Ade: Finally.Zach: Finally, that's true. But look, you was gone for a little minute, but you back in town. You know? It's okay. I think the biggest thing--what do they say, "the biggest ability is availability?" It's corny. It's kind of a coach's--coaches say that, but it's a true statement. Like, just be present, you know? I know one thing, and shout-out to Rod from The Black Guy Who Tips and Karen, his lovely co-host and partner, but one of the things he said, like, from the jump--like, he jumped on our podcast early. He was like, "Yo, being consistent--" He's like, "'Cause people come and leave, like, jump on these podcasts and leave all of the time." He's like, "So having some longevity is hard over time," and if it wasn't for our team - Aaron, Sheneisha, Amy, Latesha, Tristan... like, we have a great, great team, and we put out a lot of content. Like, we're posting three episodes a week every single week, and, like, that doesn't happen without a huge team--or, I'm sorry, relatively huge and a consistently dedicated team. So, like, really proud of them, really proud of, like, just what we've been able to do, and just, like, really thankful for Dr. Gassam, 'cause, like, there's plenty of other platforms that are trying to make content. I really still stay that, like, it's us, Trill MBA and, like... that's kind of it right now that's out here really talking about other in majority-white spaces. Anyway, so look, it's Black History Month. Have you seen any--I'm just gonna ask the question. I don't know why I'm trying to, like, play it safe. Have you been on a job where your employer has annoyed you by how they've handled Black History Month?Ade: Let me count the ways. I--[laughs] Whoo, let me take a breath. All right. I have been aggravated by several firms, actually, simply because--Zach: [laughs] Yes, shout-out "firms." Consulting, we're talking about y'all. [laughs]Ade: Looking right at you, friends. Zach: Looking right at y'all, professional services. Yes. [laughing]Ade: No, I just--there's nothing I hate more than double-talk, and by that I mean firms, corporations, whatever it is that y'all would like to call yourselves--active participants in capitalism--who pay lip service, either through, like, their mission statements, their values, their creed, or even their stated employee resource groups that they care about diversity and somehow consistently fail to make a statement or support or do anything of value, particularly during Black History Month. I noticed this during my employment at a firm I will not name in the past where, you know, July 4th came around, Veteran's Day came around. You know, all of those things were celebrated or commemorated by words from the leadership of the firm going out, but when Black History Month came and went there was nary a bleep, and it was so noticeable because, you know, the firm had something to say on MLK Day, but, you know, when ostensibly there would be time for--and to their credit, the employee resource group put on one... ONE program for the entire month of February. I understand that, you know, funding is a thing. It's difficult to organize sometimes around different people's schedules, but, you know, one event over the course of the entire Black History Month? I cannot tell you how deeply bothersome I found that, simply because you have a body of people who are, whether they consciously or not notice these things, are essentially being utilized as resources by this firm. I mean, you are essentially selling our time to all of these contracts, you're making millions off of us, and you can't take the time during Black History Month to care about Black History, but you can, on July 4th, take time to commemorate these things? Or you can during Veteran's Day or Memorial Day or Labor Day and all of these other things. So it feels like a very intentional slight, because, I mean, I know that your calendar functions the same way that my calendar does, and I know that your Google functions the same way that my Google functions, so it's not like you're missing out on the reminders that these things exist. So when there's an intentional exclusion, or what feels like an intentional exclusion, of black people from, you know, your commemorative messages, it's like, "Heard you. We see where your priorities are." And an even further extension of that logic is that when--you know, during these programming sessions there are no, like, leadership in the room to attend these programs or there's no support, you know? People have to come out of pocket for things, to pay for things. It just feels very ugly. I'ma use that word, ugly. Dusty. Musty.Zach: Raggly.Ade: Raggedy.Zach: And there's a difference now, and this is where--so, you know, you and I, I love the diversity just in our pairing, right? But, like, you know, you're an East Coast black and I'm a Southern black, right?Ade: Precisely.Zach: It's interesting, 'cause you said raggedy, and see, what I said was raggly.Ade: Raggley, mm-hmm.Zach: Raggly. Not raggley, raggly. Now, look, I want--'cause every now and then I teach--and if you're listening to this you know who you are, but for the white folks that I trust, the Buckys out there, the allies, or the aspirational allies, that I trust, every now and then I'll teach y'all a phrase called "fifty-'leven," right? You know who you are. If you're listening to this and you actually, you know, rock with me and you listen to this, I've taught you this. [both laughing] I've taught you all these phrases, and this is another one for y'all to take in. So look, it's not raggedy, nor is it raggley. It's raggly. It's two syllables, and that is often times a descriptor for how companies manage Black History Month.Ade: I will make an amendment to that statement, 'cause I don't necessarily agree. There are, uh, regional differences to dialects, you see. [Zach laughing] So while Zach is correct for his particular region of the Souf--notice I said Souf--Zach: That's true. Souf. That's true. That's fair, 'cause Southern is--'cause we live in America. Southern is a huge region. That's true. That's fair.Ade: Take his advice lightly, you know? Do with that what you will. Zach: [laughs] Be careful.Ade: And, uh, if you get run up on, please don't quote us.Zach: Don't quote me.Ade: 'Cause we will not be popping up [?].Zach: Uh-uh, uh-uh. Don't. And honestly, maybe don't say fifty-'leven around everybody. They'll be like, "Who taught you that?" And don't tell 'em it was me. [laughs] Nah, but no, I'm right there with you when it comes to, like--I've been in situations where, you know, either we don't celebrate Black History Month at all, we don't recognize it in any way, or employee resource groups will get, like, the black people to huddle together and they'll go do something, right? It's like, "Um..." Black history is American history. This should be something company-wide. And I'm not saying we gotta do something every single day, but can we do at least one thing? Can we recognize some of the black pioneers in our own firm, in our own companies? Like, we have our own historical marks that we've made, but I think--I don't know. It's tough, it's tough because--and honestly, like, even I say this, like, I get--like, I'm hearing... 'cause there's some executive leaders and folks who listen to Living Corporate, right? And they listen to it for different points of insight or whatever, and so there's a part of me who--and they're like, "Well, dang, I can't even win for losing," 'cause, like, the other part of me is gonna say, "And even if you are doing something for Black History Month, what are you doing for the rest of the year?" Right? 'Cause it can just be, like, an acknowledgement. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing to, like, actually advance having a more equitable and inclusive culture that drives belonging in your place of work? But I do think, like, at just the--I mean, I'm talking, like, floor level, if we could just start with some acknowledgement, you know? Like, you don't have to always quote Martin Luther King. You could actually, like, integrate and be intersectional with your Black History Month if you wanted. [Ade laughs] You can! Like, you can actually, like, quote trans rights, trans activists who happen to be black, and you can tie that in with, like, your LGBTQ ERGs. You could quote, like, Afro-Latinx civil rights activists and, like, historical people, and, like, integrate them. Like, there's all types of ways. You know there's ways that you can actually--you could use Black History Month to drive intersectional conversations and activities for your whole firm, 'cause black people are not just black. Black people are black and gay, black and Latinx. They're black and straight. They're black and female. They're black and disabled. Like, it could actually be something that could be--you know, you could use Black History Month similarly to how you use black and brown people anyway, which is really kind of like just the glue that holds everybody together. You could just use us if you want. You could use the month how you use black and brown people. Like, let me just be super cynical, right? You could actually--like, from a programming perspective, from, like, a networking and engagement perspective, from, like, even leveraging--like, getting more thought leadership, like, you could do all types of things with that month. You have a whole month, and this month you have a whole extra day. So it's like--Ade: No excuses.Zach: No excuses, right? Like, you could do something. And, like, if you need any help with ideas, then, I mean, you could talk to your own leadership. You could talk to--I don't know. There's just so much out there now. There's just so much--maybe we just need to drop an article on ideas for your Black History Month. Maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I don't--Ade: You know what? That's a good idea.Zach: I mean, maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I'm over here just thinking about it more and more. It's like, "I don't know if I've been a part of any company that I have walked away and felt like, "Wow, I really feel seen this Black History Month." I don't think that's ever happened to me. In fact, I remember last year I tried to quote a--like, I was on a project and there was a quote board, okay? So you put a little quote up there, and I was like, "Oh, it's Black History Month," and I tried to quote--I think I quoted, like, Oprah Winfrey or something like that, and, like, they literally erased it and put up some white man's quote and they were like, "This is more relevant." I said, "But I thought it was a quote board." Ade: Right?Zach: Like, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean it's more relev--okay... and again, that's where I had to make a choice between, like, okay, am I about to die on this hill? Am I gonna go to jail? Like, what am I gonna do? 'Cause, like, I just--I don't--nope. So I had to make a decision, but anyway. So okay, what else do we have going on? So what's the name of the company though? The body butter company. I'm jumping all around now. What's--'cause we didn't talk about that before.Ade: [laughs] Right. So my company is called Solari, S-O-L-A-R-I. It is a portmanteau of my name, or a part of my name, and my mom's name. And on Instagram and on Twitter I'm pretty sure our handle is @SolariBody, so it's S-O-L-A-R-I-B-O-D-Y. And yeah, I'm really excited. I'm kind of blushing right now. [laughs] I'm really excited about just getting started and just being able to expand my reach. So I've been doing a lot of kind of, like, self-care stuff for a very long time, like making my own body butters and making my own, like, lip balm, conditioner, and all these other things--and scrubs--and just the idea of being able to... and this is another thing that happened, but I'll finish my sentence. Just the idea of being able to utilize all of the things that I put into practice because I want to take care of myself and take better care of myself. So, for example, I would, like, make my own hair oils, but when I realized that other people wanted these things and don't necessarily want to go through the process of experimentation to figure out all of the ideal things--and I've already been doing these things for over a decade--I was just kind of like, "You know what? I'm gonna do this, and it's gonna be fun," and the reception has been fantastic.Zach: Well, I'm really proud of you. I'm happy for you, you know? I think--you talked about this a little bit on the last, when we did our season kickoff episode, but it's easy to, like, get in your own way and to like, you know what I'm saying, just let anxieties and different challenges, like, just hamper you or kind of put you in a stalemate, but it's really exciting, like to see you continue forward and build something. Ade: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome. Man, so, you know, my cadence as I was pausing there, it reminded me of my own Barack Obama impression that I do at the house for fun with Candis just to get on her nerves, 'cause I was almost like... [impersonating Barack] "Uh, Ade, it is, uh... impressive how you have taken the time," you know what I mean? I almost--and then I go into, [continuing] "Every day, there are Americans who get up, they have their challenges--" [Ade sighs, Zach laughs] "If there was any doubt, uh, that you could not do what it is that you're doing today, uh, you have nowhere else to look but in the mirror. Uh, you get up. You put that butter on your dry skin. Uh, you hydrate yourself, and you face a world that is not ready for someone like you."Ade: I'm about to hang up on you, sir. [both laugh] I am so done.Zach: [laughs] Goodness, gracious. So all right, y'all. Well, look, this was just a fun episode, you know, letting you know what we've got going on. Thank you so much. Shout-out to everyone who listens to this podcast. Shout-out to--shoot, I ain't gonna get into all the shout-outs, but just shout-out to y'all. Make sure that you share this with your people. Continue to share it. The numbers are showing that y'all are sharing it, and I look at our stats every single day 'cause that's just kind of the person I am, the obsessive person that I am, but [laughs] we're really appreciative. And then, shoot, I guess we'll see y'all next time. Make sure you follow--Ade: Wait, one last thing before we go. We kind of vaguely talked about it, but I do want to insert a moment of silence here for Kobe Bryant and his daughter and all of the passengers of the helicopter that went down. We actually weren't able to get on this podcast to discuss it because we were just so emotional. I tried, and it's about 7 minutes worth of just sobs and sniffles on that, but I think this is a pretty good time to do it. So if everyone listening could just join us in a moment of silence. [a moment of silence] Thank you. Zach: Nah, for sure. Yeah, we could talk about--we're gonna have to have an episode about trauma and, like, the ways that trauma impacts black and brown people at work every day, and how we're still expected to just, like, show up and perform two or three times better than our counterparts just so that we can keep our jobs. So... but yeah.Ade: And I just also actually--I think we should have a black heroes episode.Zach: I love that.Ade: I think that in an episode coming up soon we're gonna discuss, you know, some of our heroes, and Kobe's one of mine. People who have just shown you how to get through life with dignity and with grit, and that's a term that I didn't used to use so frequently and so intensely until now. But again, it's a topic that we'll be covering later, but suffice to say that was a shock to my system, and I didn't expect that it would be so shocking. I didn't expect just how strongly I would react, and I suspect that so many others found themselves reeling in the aftermath of that news. Our prayers and our thoughts of those affected. And another topic I think we should also explore is, you know, how to disconnect in times of trauma and to kind of reassess and to find your balance in those times as well. That's it for me.Zach: Nah, I love that, and I super agree. And y'all, on that super, you know, emotional, heavy note, we're gonna catch y'all next time, okay?Ade: For sure.Zach: Now, look, you make sure you check us out. We're @LivingCorporate on Instagram, @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. We have all the different domains. One day, man, we're gonna get that livingcorporate.com domain, man. Right now we have all the livingcorporate dot everything but com, and then we got living-corporate.com, but shoot, until next time. This has been Zach.Ade: This is Ade.Zach: Peace, y'all.Ade: Peace.

We have the honor of speaking with author, social worker, and community activist Feminista Jones about the importance of supporting black women at the workplace and the ways in which people can help lift up and advocate for them. We also talk about her new book, Reclaiming Our Space, and announce a giveaway of some free copies!Connect with Feminista on IG and Twitter!Her new book, Reclaiming Our Space: AmazonPatricia Hill Collins’ catalog: AmazonTRANSCRIPTAde: "An extensive survey of hundreds of books, articles, and white papers concludes that women leave the tech industry because they're, quote, treated unfairly, underpaid, less likely to be fast-tracked than their male colleagues, and unable to advance. A study by the Center for Talent Innovation found that 20% of women in tech feel stalled in their careers and 32% are likely to quit within one year. 48% of black women in tech feel stalled." This excerpt from Rachel Thomas called The Real Reason Women Quit Tech (and How to Address It) speaks to the ever-present challenges women, especially those of color, face at work. The common narrative is that diversity and inclusion drive innovation. If so, why are black women so often on the short end of the stick, and what does it look like to effectively support them? My name is Ade, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about supporting black women at work.Ade: Yeah. So why do you think we're focusing specifically on black women and not talking about women as a whole?Zach: Well, one I think because the reality of intersectionality is real, right? The fact that we exist in multiple spectrums, not just one or the other. I think that when you talk about--when we have conversations about gender, they often can be overly binary in a way that really erases the very real experiences and perspectives of millions of people, particularly when it comes to black women. You know, often times we ignore the fact that, historically, the feminist movements of the early 1900s ignored or aimed to kind of like neutralize and minimize black women's voices. We ignored the fact that black women have endured a history of abuse and negligence by our country. I think that we really often enough just don't talk about and really seek to empower black voices and experiences, particularly black voices and experiences who are women. So that's why I think we're talking about--we're zooming in on black women today.Ade: So you can't see me, but I nodded so hard throughout all of that. I want you to know that if I have whiplash in the morning, I'm billing you directly.Zach: Don't bill me. Don't bill me please.Ade: No, thank you for sharing that. To kind of expound and share some of my own personal experiences, I mean, I've been in situations where I had my bonus docked at work, and I'm asking for concrete reasons as to why I don't have all my money, because I earned this bonus, and the manager is making excuses like, "Oh, well, your computer failed, therefore you didn't get this deliverable in on time," and I'm like, "Okay, so you acknowledge that this was something that this was not within my control and I'm still being punished for it anyway?" And I had no allies. Like, I had plenty of people who were nice to me, plenty of people within that space who would listen to me and bring me coffee and acknowledge that I would be, you know, one of the few people who would show up to work on Sundays to get work done, which I'm never doing again. But nobody felt the need to go to bat for me the same way that they did for other people, and I think in retrospect there were a lot of people who were like, "Oh, she's got this. Oh, she's strong enough to deal with this. Oh, she'll speak up for herself." I mean, and I did, but nobody was listening to me, right? And that's just one of several occasions in which I felt alone. I felt like I was being punished for things that were outside of my control, and even when I spoke up for myself people would treat me as though as I was overreacting or disturbing the peace by just asking to be treated fairly, right? And I found that ultimately I have had to be my own best advocate, and I think in ways that others don't even have to think about, right? Thinking about ways in which I am communicating. For example, I have a pretty sarcastic sense of humor.Zach: Yep.Ade: Thank you for backing me up. But I found that there are situations in which I have consciously dialed back, because I recognized that there were people who would say that I am being mean or that if I am not relating to the topic at hand--for example, people are just kind of talking through experiences that I've never experienced. I'm not gonna get up every day and wash my hair. That's not how my hair functions. And so if I'm quiet in that conversation, people will report that I'm being standoffish. And so there are all of these things and all of these micro-aggressions that ultimately lead to me feeling isolated and unsupported in various workplace scenarios and situations. And so ultimately I want a world in which I don't have to feel different. Like, I want to feel as though I can bring my whole self to work, my whole self, whether my twist-out is bomb or not, whether I feel like I need to go on every single coffee run with every single one of my coworkers just so that I feel like I belong. But that's a conversation we can have a little bit later. Can you think of any situations that you've observed in which you felt that the black woman or black women in your spaces weren't being taken seriously or were being treated differently?Zach: So for sure, right? Interestingly enough though in my career, I have not--I haven't really worked with a lot of black women who were not actually much more senior than I was, right? So, you know, my first experience when I think about it was I was in industry. I was in the oil and gas industry, and she's now a mentor of mine. She's easily one of the most learned, most educated people that I know period. Like, she has an MBA, a Ph.D. She teaches. She's a college professor. And it was interesting watching her navigate these spaces, like, despite her education, people still, like, kind of, like, looking past her or, like, looking through the things that she would say and kind of just cutting her off and making a lot of very presumptive statements.Ade: Ooh. Cutting her off? Good lord.Zach: Cutting her off. Cutting her off, yeah, and watching her handle those situations with a lot of poise and grace and a still certain level of, like, firm confidence. Like, "Okay, nope. I got it." And she's--you know, she's about, like, my mom's age, so certainly she's had a litany of experiences that I would imagine have, you know, helped her kind of deal with what it means just to be who she is in the spaces that she exists. But yeah, I think--I think that that's been, like, the most common experience that I've seen, like, black women in the workplace who would be directors, senior managers--again, they were always senior to me--and they would be--they'd just be dismissed. Like, their opinion would be kind of, like, taken with a pound of salt, slight eye rolls and things of that nature, or kind of to your point, even I've seen situations--and this has been my experience as well, but we're not talking about Zach's experiences, we're talking about black women's experiences--where people will--you know, they'll smile and they'll nod, and then they'll go off and they'll do exactly what they want to do anyway.Ade: Oh. Oh, my God. This is--this is just bringing back so many different flashbacks.Zach: [laughs] No, but it's real though. I've seen that, like, where it's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, for sure," or like I said, you know, they'll say things--they'll be very nice, but then, like, they don't really support you, and I think that kind of, like, speaks to a larger phenomena of people who think that you being nice is in some way you being an advocate, right? Like, no. Like, you're just being nice. Like, there's a difference, and I think to your earlier point about, you know, people saying you're overreacting, I think people--it's so funny. Like, when it comes to--in my experience when it comes to people of color, particularly women of color, folks are really able to see the implications of their decisions with folks' careers when it's their career.Ade: Mm-hmm, say that.Zach: But they don't understand--like, they don't understand the reality of your decision when it comes to my money, right? So, like, when you sit back and you say, "Oh, okay. Well, yeah, you know, your computer didn't work, and so we cut your bonus." You understand, like, you're taking away my money? You're taking away my livelihood. We live in a capitalistic society. Like, I need bread to live.Ade: Right.Zach: So when you sit back and you make decisions that are gonna impede my promotion, they're gonna impede my ratings, they're gonna impede my bonus, like, you're actively taking money out of my pocket. So if you're gonna do something like that where you're gonna take money out of my pocket, you need to have a quantitative, valid, ethical and legal reason--Ade: Have an ironclad reason.Zach: An ironclad reason to do so, and it's just crazy that people don't grasp, like, you know, you're talking about my bread. We're gonna have a problem. But guess what though? I bet if somebody came at you like that, you'd be the first one to run to a lawyer, to run to whoever you're gonna run to who's gonna listen to you.Ade: You'd be on the phone with [inaudible].Zach: On the phone [inaudible] lickety-splickety. So, like, why are we playing?Ade: [laughs] Lickety-splickety.Zach: Lickety-splickety.Ade: But yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. I spoke only of my own experiences, but there's, like, a litany of experiences of the women in my circle and the women who are well above me who are just dealing with things that I don't think they would be dealing with if they were white men, right? Just being excluded or people being condescending to you or people either treating you like you're the third rail and they can't speak to you like you're a regular human being, or when they do speak to you it's with this air of condescension like they know better than you what to do when you're the subject matter expert, and it's just--I can't list literally every single one of things, but I do know this. I know that the tide is going to have to turn, not just because that it is so, but because people who have been studying and working and putting in time and effort to elucidate just what it means to be a black woman in America have extended themselves, right? And so I know that the work is being done. I know that I am just a small piece of a much larger universe of women who are like, "Yeah, this is cute and all, but we're not having it. Thank you." And of those, I think you had the opportunity to speak to one very, very amazing writer. You want to introduce her?Zach: Yeah, so absolutely. So I got the opportunity, or rather Living Corporate had the opportunity, to speak with Feminista Jones. For those who may not know her, she's an activist, she's a black feminist. She's a wonderful person, great writer, and she actually has written a book called Reclaiming Our Space, and we'll get into that in the interview. The next voice you're gonna hear is in the interview that we had with Feminista Jones, and we'll talk to y'all soon.Ade and Zach: Peace.Zach: And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Feminista Jones on the show. Feminista, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Feminista: I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?Zach: I'm doing great. Now, let me--let me ask you this. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself?Feminista: Sure. For those who don't know me, I am a writer. I am a social worker. I am an activist. I am a speaker, I am a mother, and I am a really amazing friend.Zach: Let's go, yes.Feminista: I do a lot around really advocating for girls and women, advocating for racial justice. I do a lot of anti-poverty work. That's, like, my main primary focus is anti-poverty work. And I'm located in Philadelphia. I'm a native New Yorker, but I moved to Philadelphia a couple years ago because I really wanted to do work to fight poverty, and this city has such a high poverty rate that I wanted to come here and see what work I could help, you know, get done while I'm out here.Zach: So today we're talking about supporting black women in the workplace.Feminista: Mm-hmm. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] I am familiar with your content and your work through social media. We're excited to have you here because of your thought leadership in this arena. So what do you think are some practical ways black women can be better advocated for and supported in their 9-to-5 jobs?Feminista: This is a really great question. I'm someone who is in a senior management position in the social work field, in the community activism fields, and a lot of people have misconceptions about, you know, community work and social work and think that it's just about low-paying work all the time. And some of it is, but there is a lot of opportunities to move up, and when you're in a senior-level position you've got to use multiple skill sets. And I think, just for black women, you know, people make a lot of assumptions that we can do so much all the time, and they rely on us to do that. So I think a lot of times people take for granted the contributions that we make or they take advantage of them, and they may expect that, you know, black women will just handle it, you know? Whatever the fires that need to be put out, black women come with an extinguisher. You know, we're the problem solvers, and a lot of times, you know, we have no choice. We have to because we're looked at, you know, one as being black, two as being women. We're looked at it being doubly, you know, incompetent, and I feel like we've worked so hard to prove otherwise. And you're working alongside men or alongside white people or reporting to men or reporting to white people. You have to, like, be mindful of how you're gonna be perceived, and I think one of the biggest challenges facing black women in the workplace is this idea that people make assumptions about our attitude and our personality and just based on our affect, or, you know, they say we have attitudes or we have issues with communication. And that's one of the things that I struggle with, because I feel like men are celebrated for being, you know, direct and blunt and forward and aggressive. I feel like white people are celebrated for, like, not taking no for an answer and, you know, really kind of just putting it out there and taking risks, but it's like when black women do it, you know, people kind of look at us like, you know, we just tried to suggest something really radical. They kind of look at us like, "How dare you?" almost, and it sucks because we are smart and we are capable, we are talented, and sometimes it's just we're not appreciated simply because we're black women.Zach: That's just--that's so true, right? So, like, as a black man in the workplace--so I'm a consultant, and I don't often really work with black women on projects. I don't really work with other black people often, but when I do I notice that there's this--there's this pattern where if a black woman speaks up--I've noticed where if they speak up and they're being assertive, it is taken completely different than when a white woman speaks up as being assertive and certainly when a man, especially a white man, speaks up and is being assertive. Now, speaking for myself as a black man, there's also, like, a weird balance, right, because we--like, black men do participate in patriarchy of course, and we also--we also sit higher on the privilege pyramid than black women, and at the same time there's a--there's a certain level of balance in terms of not being too assertive but but not being assertive enough at the same time. It's like you truly can't win for losing, so I definitely--I relate to that, and I have--and I've seen it more than a few times with black women, especially if they're, you know, a bit more seasoned in their careers. Let's say if they're, like, over 35 and they really know what they're talking about, they're often seen as a--they're often seen as a threat as opposed--Feminista: Absolutely, absolutely. And I just wanted to touch really quickly what you were saying about, you know, black men in the workplace. Like, I've had situations where I've been, you know, on the same level as a black man, and, like, he's made mistakes, and I'm like, "I'm not trying to have this brother go down," you know what I mean? Because he messed up, or I'm not gonna make him look bad in front of these white people that hired--you know, that are over all of us, but at the same time I'm looking like, "Bruh," like, "I need you to get it together."Zach: And support me.Feminista: "You can't rely on me to fix all your things, you know?" Like, you know that I have a certain skill set. You know that I'm not gonna let you fail 'cause you're my brother, but at the same time don't take that for granted.Zach: That's so true.Feminista: And then when you do have the space to advocate for me as, like, a woman, I need you to do that, and I think, you know, one of my colleagues, I had a great conversation with him, and he said, you know, "I can get the race stuff with the snap of a finger," he said, "but every time you point out something about gender," he said, "I think about it, like, what if this was being said about a white person?" And he's like, "And I feel so stupid that I don't get it," you know? And so it's--like, there's work to be done, and he's acknowledging that, like, some of his gender stuff is still real, and it's almost like I have to compare it to race to help him to see it more, and he hates it. Like, he feels so bad, and he, like, resents it, but, you know, definitely he's getting better, and I respect him for at least doing the work. But there are, like, those boys' club kind of environments that while I know a lot of brothers say that, you know, they have their own experiences, they're still invited into those clubs before we are.Zach: That's true. Absolutely, absolutely. So I've been married for about 5 years, 5 1/2 years, and being married has really helped open my eyes to male privilege. And again, like, it's a--I think black men, like, we can get really sensitive about kind of broaching that topic 'cause it's like, "Well, there's still racism." It's like, "No." Absolutely, like, white supremacy still exists, and it subjugates all non-white people. At the same time, there's still a nuance, an element of privilege that we participate in because we are men, and it's important to realize that. Also to your point around women helping--you said you've helped your colleagues in the past 'cause they're a brother, and shout-out to the countless black women in my career who have pulled me aside and helped me and taken the time to just--felt the need to just educate me or mentor me. Really that's really the inspiration behind Living Corporate, because I didn't have a lot of those people in my family coming up giving me, you know, professional wisdom and insights, but it would often be black women pulling me aside and being like, "Hey, look now. [I know that you did this?]."Feminista: [laughs] Yeah, I hear that a lot. You know, if my colleague listens to this he'll laugh, because just the other day we were at the--we were at a conference, and we went to the bar, and I sat him down and we were drinking, and I turned to him and I said, "Look, I'ma need to get your ass together," you know what I mean? Like, I really--he said, you know--and he got quiet. He's like, "I know it's coming from love. I know it's coming from a good place," but it's like--it is, because it's like, "Brother, I don't want to see you fail, but, you know, some of the things you're doing is like--I need you to do better," and I said, "I'm gonna help you because I have the resources and I have, you know, the ability to do that, because I want to see you succeed," and I think sometimes, you know, I think within our spaces, particularly as black women, it's like we are so few when we're in, you know, these upper spaces, it's like we look to each other to build community, and it's like that's all we got, you know? That's really all we got, and so it's hard when there's tension there, 'cause it's like, "We shouldn't have tension between us." We can disagree on things, but honestly we all we got.Zach: We've got to work together.Feminista: That's the approach I'd take, yeah.Zach: Absolutely, and you know--I don't want to get on too much of a tangent, but your other point around there is, like, this desire and, like--'cause I cape for black women every day. Like, I have to. My mom is black. My wife is black. Like, I have black sisters. I love--I love black women, right? And what I realized is a lot of times I do believe that there has--there is a pattern of black men, like, using up black women, like as means of support and encouragement and all these different things and really taking them for granted. And I've seen it--I have seen it in the professional workplace. Of course I've seen it in the workplace. We see it in relationships. We see it--we see it in a variety of spaces, and I do believe to your other--to your point around black men need to play a more assertive part for advocating for, speaking up, and supporting black women as well. Okay, so let me ask you this. I do feel as if language is becoming more inclusive but at the same time not as explicit when it comes to centering blackness, specifically black women. So as an example, we hear things like "person of color" or "women of color," but often in my opinion our race is the uniqueness of black identity and black feminine identity. So my question is one, am I tripping, and if two--if not, what are ways to affirm and assert intersectional identity, do you think?Feminista: Mm-hmm. Well, you're not tripping, and I think, you know, anti-blackness is, you know, a quite valuable currency, even among black people. We have all internalized the idea that black is bad, and it's going to take generations, centuries of work, to collectively divest of that idea that blackness is tarnishing, blackness is a blemish. And so there are people who will say women of color, people of color, rather than just saying black, because people have been afraid to say black. And, you know, of course for some people, you know, black means a black American, but for me, you know, when I say black I mean, you know, inclusive of everyone in the diaspora, whether you are from the continent, whether you're from South America, North America, Asia, wherever, Europe. For me that's just a unifier. For others it means different things, you know? So a lot of times people shy away from that, and then when they say people of color or they say women of color, in many ways it does dilute the focus, and what happens is this. So much of what happens to women, like, say, in a negative way, happens to black women, and so people want to use our statistics to make their points. And so they'll say "women of color," right, but of those 10 women of color, like, 7 of 'em are black, and so they can say, you know, "70% of women of color experience this," and it's like, "Yes, seven black women experience that." [laughs] We see that in the feminist movement. We see that in the queer movement. We see that wherever black people exist. Folks want to use our statistics to push their agenda, and I have a problem with that. I have a very serious problem with that, and I agree with you. Like, we need to name blackness for what it is, or if you want to say African-American or Afro-Latino, whatever you want to say. They need to name it for what it is, because it's real. Like, if you look at some place like Brazil, it's--like, you can't say there's 55 million, you know, women of color in Brazil. No, there's 55 million black women in Brazil, you know? And that's more black--there's more black women there than there are black people in the United States. So no, we have to name these things, and it's powerful. It's powerful when you name blackness for what it is, for its achievement and success but also for its struggle, because it puts the focus and the spotlight on us. So, like, when you're talking about black women and black feminine identity, particularly, like, in the workspace and beyond, we have to focus specifically on that, because an Asian woman is not facing the same hair issues. She may have similar name issues on her resume, right? But she's not--she's not facing the hair issues, right? An Indian woman may be seen as, you know, she's super smart with tech, because that's an assumption that is made, you know? It's very different for us, you know? Either a biracial woman, you know, may not have the same issues with color if her skin tone is lighter. You know, there's a--there's a lot of things that are going on there that we need to name explicitly.Zach: And see, I think--and my anxiety about even bringing that question up is that people will hear that and say, "Oh, okay. Well, now you're excluding other people," when not at all. Really what we're trying to do is push that we're explicit with identity language across the board, right? So you just gave three examples, right, of why it's important to be specific when it comes to speaking to identity and intersectionality. I believe that we see it at a larger point, and we talked about this in season one, around the pay gap, and we talked about--we talked about that from the perspective of, you know, when you conflate gender across the board and you say, "Well, women believe this, and men are like--" Well, no. Like, that's--I mean, just being a very, like, initial cut, black men and white men do not have the same experiences. Black women and white women do not have the same experiences. Asian women and white women don't have the same experiences. So it's really empowering across if we can have the courage to just speak explicitly to who we're talking about.Feminista: Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, the experiences are different. People will say, "Oh, women make 77 cents on the dollar," but that's not true for a black woman. A black woman is more like 56 cents, 54 cents or something like that.Zach: It is, yeah.Feminista: Like, it's different. Again, but that's, like, padding the numbers, and things like that to bring down the average, 'cause I believe, like--I think I read something like Asian women are on par with white men, and white women are, like, 80% or something like that. Like, they're--Zach: So it's crazy. Like, the numbers absolutely agree [inaudible]. Like, you know, I've seen numbers that are, you know--so, like, white men are 100%, and then white women might be at, like, 77 cents. Black women are at 64 cents, and black men are at, like, 67 cents or 68 cents. But, like, we never talk about--we never talk--not we never talk about, that's not fair, because there's plenty of people driving those discussions, but when you talk about, like, the major narrative talking points in the media, we don't ever talk about the fact that, like, white women make more than black men. Like, that's--I've never heard that, right?Feminista: Oh, I've heard that discussion quite a bit. I mean, it just--we may just be in different circles.Zach: I defer.Feminista: You know, I've heard quite a bit, and it is important, you know, to discuss, because, I mean, it's the truth, right? So it's like--you know, but black women just kind of sit back and be like, "Y'all have at it," because you're either gonna bicker over the race thing or you're gonna bicker over the gender thing.Zach: It's never both, right?Feminista: And we're both. We're the ones that are saying it's both, you know? [laughs] And nobody wants to listen to us on either side, so you all hash it out.Zach: You're absolutely right. No, you're absolutely right, and so--and no, I defer. I would trust that if you've heard it then it's--then those conversations are happening in the right places. So I believe that leads us well into your book, Reclaiming Our Space. Can you talk a bit about the book and how you arrived at that title?Feminista: The title was really interesting. It took us a while to get there. I didn't know what I wanted to call it. What I did know was, you know, shout-out to my editor, Rakia Clark at Beacon Press. She's amazing. She's fantastic. She helped me along the way. On--okay, so if we talk about the book, I--she came to me, right? I guess she was among a bunch of folks who thought I had already written something like this, because my first two books were self-published and did really well, and so I was never--like, I wasn't looking for a publishing agent or a publisher or anything like that. I wasn't looking for a literary agent. I was like, "I can just do it myself," you know? And cut out the middleperson, but when she came to me and approached me it was like, you know, "Have you written anything like this?" And I was like, "No." She was like, "Well, do you want to?" Like, "We're interested in this," and I was like, "What? Sure, okay," and the idea was really to write about not just modern black feminism but specifically kind of speak to my experiences and those of my peers of existing as black feminists in these digital spaces. So ultimately the book is about how black feminists and black women, even those that don't openly identify as feminists, have been able to build community by using digital platforms and how social media has been a--you know, basically a change agent in how we do activism or how we connect across the world and how it's changed our ability to get our messaging out and to change the face of feminism, and we've been able to educate people and influence popular culture and shape laws and everything, you know? I talk about our political influence. I talk about our, you know, influence on television and, you know, this whole live tweeting thing came from us. And, you know, we're talking about black women voting. We're talking about critiquing white feminism. We're talking about--even things down to, like, quote tweeting and threading tweets and things like that. Like, all these things really became popular because of us. So I do a deep dive into that, but I start off with basics of, you know, what is black feminism? I wanted to write a primer for black feminism that was accessible to people of today. We know that people have shorter attention spans. They really want the hot takes. They want the summaries and things like that. They're not going to sit down with a thick Patricia Hill Collins book, although they should. They're not going back and reading, you know, everything from bell hooks, everything from Toni Morrison. They may not even know who Florence Kennedy is, right? But they need to, and so I was like, "Well, how do I tell our story? 'Cause I need to show how we got here," and so I do give a very straightforward quick primer on black feminism, and I go back, like, 125 years or so, and then I bring us to the present, and I'm like, "Well, here are your modern black feminists of today," and so I'm talking about, like, my sister Jamilah Lemieux. I'm talking about Imani Gandy. I'm talking about Zerlina Maxwell. I'm talking about, you know, these really--CaShawn Thompson, who created Black Girl Magic. You know, I'm talking about these women who, right now, in present day, are making history. I'm talking about Trudy, you know? And just a bunch of others. They're currently making history. Not just black history, not just women's history, but they are making history in the ways in which they are transforming these social media platforms. We are creating campaigns. We are, you know, changing literally the world and culture, and I'm writing all about it, 'cause I felt that it needed to be documented. We needed to have something that encapsulated this entire moment right now.Zach: So for our audience, I think many have heard of the term feminism, but the modifier black is still new for a lot of people. So would you mind explaining the difference between what we often think of as feminism and black feminism?Feminista: That's a great question. I get it a lot, and I think the difference is just we are directing people to our identity as black women, which we believe is important in every discussion about our womanhood, and I think, as I said earlier about kind of looking at the both sides of things, the gender and the race, there's a really great collection of works that really references this idea that, you know, all of the men are black and all of the women are white. When we think about, within our black community, you know, blackness really is depicted through a black man, and those are our leaders, and those are the people we care more about when they're killed by police and all these other things, but when it's for a woman, when we think "woman" it's white women, right? But some of us are--we exist in the middle, and to say that we are feminists is--you know, it's a collective idea. All people, women--all women of all races can be feminists, but when we say that we are black feminists, we are saying yes, we believe in women's rights, yes, we support gender, you know, equality, and yes, we support equity, but don't forget that we're black and that we have different issues on top of all of these other issues that women deal with, right? So we have all the feminist issues AND those that come with being not just black but black women within the black community.Zach: You know, it's interesting that you say that because, you know, I have a colleague who is a very senior leader, and she's a white woman, and she said, "Yeah, Zach. I mean, I'm a woman, but I'm white, right? Like, I don't have it that bad," and so--and she kind of chuckled about it, and she was like, "But let's be honest, I don't." And I said, "Okay." You know, with that being said--Feminista: Well, she's right.Zach: She is right. I said, "Yep." [laughs] Yeah, and I laughed. I was--you know, kind of as an aside, I laughed because I was so shocked because she's so senior and she was being--she was speaking so frankly that I said--I laughed and I said, "Well, you know, you're right. You're right," and so it leads me to this question. What are some practical ways you believe white women can support black women generally and at work? And what have you seen be helpful in your journey?Feminista: If I say get out the way, is that too harsh? [laughs] Nah.Zach: It's your energy.Feminista: You know, I mean, ultimately--the bottom line is this. There is no single person I believe that is willing to totally divest of whatever privilege they have if it means staying alive and it means that their children are fed, and I don't care who you are. You will cling to some privilege, whatever privilege you have, to make sure that you can stay alive and that your children are fed. With that said, there are white women who I have really come to know and love and respect, who value my opinions, my thoughts, my work, and amplify it without adding qualifiers to it. They'll share my work. They'll share information about my articles and my books, and they'll direct people to events that I'm having or things like that. They'll use their platforms to really kind of boost, you know, the work that I and other people are doing, which is super important. In the quiet spaces that I don't even have access to they'll stand up for me and folks like me. They'll call out people that are close to them, you know? Even at the risk of losing those connections. Those are women that I find to be truly amazing when you're talking about in the corporate space. I'm coming from, you know, the social work/non-profit field, and we know that that field is ripe with white saviors. Many liberal white women, and men, you know, kind of get into this work 'cause they want to "do good" and they want to "help the needy," and sometimes that can really be actually racist, 'cause the assumptions they make about, you know, people in need or poor people or black people or things like that under the guise of wanting to help can be rather violent. So I've had my share of run-ins with white women in that space, 'cause I'm like, "You'll never tell me that you know what's better for a black child than I do." [laughs] I don't care who you are. We have the same education and experience. But what you can do in that space is really just listen, and I think that, you know, social media definitely has made it a lot easier to listen and to access the voices and experiences of marginalized folks, whereas a lot of white women never really had exposure, you know, in such even and equal platforms. I can tweet just as much as you can, so we have an even playing field right there, and you can listen and you can read and you can learn from me as I'm telling you my experience that I just had today. You don't have to pick up a book later on in the year of anecdotes. You can see right now that I am telling you that 20 minutes ago my white boss did this, you know? And I think that that's really helped white women come to understand more about the daily experiences of women of color and black women specifically. So a lot of women are actually--you know, especially millennials. The younger folks are really kind of just, like, "Eff it. I'm just gonna say what I need to say."Zach: Yeah, we with the smoke. Yeah. [laughs]Feminista: "I'm gonna stand up for this--I'm gonna stand up for this black woman right here, 'cause this ain't right," you know? And I love the energy. I mean, you know, for an older person like myself, I really love the energy that I'm seeing. So maybe we'll see some major changes coming.Zach: Maybe so. That's my prayer for sure. Before we get out of here, let me ask you this. What was the process like for you writing this book? I know you talked about that you were self-published before. This was a different journey. You know, did you learn anything about yourself from this journey?Feminista: Oh, my gosh. Yes. This is totally different. My first book I wrote over the course of 2 years. The second one I actually pulled some pieces that I had written before and wrote some new ones, but it only took me a few months. This one I was on a deadline. I had, like, "You need this by this time and this by this time, and you need to get this in, and you need to review this, and we need this back by this day," and I was like, "What is happening?" I've been the kind of person who, if you give me a deadline it starts to feel like work, and sometimes when it starts to feel like work it doesn't come as--you know, it doesn't flow as well. So I struggled a little bit with that. I had 6 months to write it, and the first 2 months I just was like, "What?" I was like, "What is going on?" I had just had, like, a really bad breakup. I was depressed. I was like, "I don't want to do anything with anyone ever, and I don't want to talk anyone, and I don't want to do--" I couldn't write a word, and then my editor gently nudged me and reminded me of that first check that I got, and I was like, "I should probably write this book." The other thing, you know, I'm also, you know, a mental health consumer and advocate, and I realized that part of my writing struggle was the medication that I was--that I had been taking. It evens my mood so much that I'm--like, I can't--I'm not creative. I don't think of things. I couldn't--I literally couldn't write, so for about a month I stopped taking my medication, and I'll tell people, I wrote about 80% of the book in a month, that month, and it was, like, kind of--it was such a negotiation for me because I knew that without the medication I would be a bit manic, I would be a bit frenzied, you know? I would have these bouts with, you know, depression or whatever, but I knew I could get it done. And so there were days where, you know, I would write until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning and just write, like, brilliant stuff, like, that I don't half-remember now, so. But I knew it was a risk, you know, and I am being very transparent about it because, you know, I just think it's important to do that, but it was a risk, but I was able to get it done. And so what I learned--it helped me really learn how much of my, you know, mental health experiences have been tied into my ability to write, and it's been a fascinating, fascinating discovery. So after the book was done, you know, I went back on my medication, and I've been in therapy and what have you, but as I was doing rewrites and things like that and reviewing it, I was reading it, like, for the first time. I was just like, "I wrote this?" I just couldn't remember writing so much of it, and then I was like, "I actually wrote this," and I was like, "This is pretty damn good." [laughs] But that's--you know, so that is a very, very unique writing process, and it's funny 'cause this is the first time I'm talking about it. A very unique writing process that I won't recommend to anybody else ever, but you know what? The easiest thing I'm gonna have to say is this - I enjoy writing about my friends and myself, 'cause that's really what I was doing, and if you can imagine--let's imagine we go back to the Harlem Renaissance, right? And we look at all those people that we group together as, like, these collectives from the Harlem Renaissance. Imagine if one of them had been documenting what they were doing at the time. It's kind of like the crisis, like, I mean, you know, these other papers and stuff that they had, like, imagine if somebody actually wrote a book in real-time kind of documenting, you know, what was happening and that we were able to read it in their words. That's what I wanted to do, and so I get to write about all these women that I love and respect and love reading their writing, love having drinks with them, love--you know, and I'm privileged. I'm privileged, and it was an honor for me to be able to document their contribution to black feminist work.Zach: That's amazing, and--I'm certainly taken aback, and I'm excited and honored with the fact that you're able to--you're transparent enough to share your journey in putting this work together. The book is called Reclaiming Our Space. Before we let you go, do you have any parting thoughts?Feminista: I'm just really excited that the book is coming out and that people can read it, and I wrote it to make it accessible to teenaged girls all the way up to your mee-maw, your big momma. I really hope that it gets into the hands of people that need it, and then maybe it could start to shift this discourse a bit and get black women a little bit more respect for what we're doing. [laughs]Zach: Amen.Feminista: Yeah, that's it. So thank you so much. Oh, my gosh. This was great.Zach: No, this is great. So Feminista, something you should know is on our website we have something called Favorite Things, and that's where we highlight books and even sometimes food and just other items, things that we really care for, and your book, Reclaiming Our Space, will be #1 on our Favorite Things list. So we're gonna make sure that we push and encourage people to check it out, to buy it and to read it. So thank you so much, and we definitely consider you a friend of the show. We hope we can have you back.Feminista: Oh, I would love to come back. Thank you.Zach: All right, now. Peace.Ade: And we're back. Thank you so much, Zach. That was amazing. Enjoyed that conversation. I think it helped me really think through what it means to lift up the black women in your circle, not just your personal circle, 'cause it's really easy to uplift your friends, but also thinking through how you're uplifting the black women at work, in your corporate spaces, wherever you might hold sway or have some sort of influence that you might be able to use better help others. What part of the conversation did you really enjoy?Zach: So we had a conversation there where we talked about the fact that really, for me, black women have always been, like, the core of my support in my career, right? So there was always some type of either kind of like motherly or kind of big aunt or big sister type figure around me. Like, they would chastise me, but it would always be out of love, right? It would always be in the spirit of "I want you to do better" or "I know you can do better so I'm holding you accountable," and it was crazy because these women who would--again, who would help me, they were not getting the support that they needed, and yet they still found it in themselves to give me the support that they knew I needed, and, you know, I think there's gonna have to be a day eventually--I mean, the day is now frankly, right--that black women are poured into, right? They can't continue just to be the exporter of support and wisdom and empathy and effort, right? Like, they're going--like, they need to be imported into. Like, they need to be given support. They need to be empathized with. They need to be heard. They need to be--and their words should be--their words should be adhered to, right? Like, they need--the things that they are giving they need to also receive.Ade: Aye, reciprocity.Zach: Reciprocity, thank you. No, straight up. That's the word really, reciprocity. Like, they need that, because I think so many times--like, it's so interesting. Also I've seen women at work, black women at work, who will eventually just get kind of fed up with, like, the BS and kind of call people on it. Like, in a professional way, but it may be, like, a more assertive way, and then the narrative is "Oh, she has an attitude problem," or she doesn't know how to handle things. Like, no, she doesn't have an attitude problem. She's tired of y'all treating her like this. She's tired of--she's tired of being the work mule for everybody, from a work perspective, from an emotional perspective. She's tired of it. Like, that's what it is.Ade: And I just want to say how important that is, because very often you'll hear about the trip of the angry black woman. I mean, it follows us everywhere, especially to Corporate America, and everybody wants to talk about the angry black woman, but nobody ever wants to talk about what y'all did to make her angry.Zach: That's so true, wow.Ade: Okay, so one, anger is a valid emotion.Zach: Right? [laughs]Ade: I just--I don't feel like running away from the trope. To be frank, so much occurs that we get to be upset about. Like, everybody gets to be upset about whatever it is upsets them, because that's their right, so I don't understand why it is up to black women--I mean, no, I do understand. I'm just saying that I'm done with that.Zach: Facts. [laughs]Ade: Women very often will be graded on likability, and black women will be graded on likability and your ability to swallow a whole bunch of nonsense and just grin and bear it, right? But if you decide that you are A. not going to grin and bear it and 2. not only are you not going to grin and bear it, you're going to alert the folks who feel as though it's your duty to grin and bear it that you see through the BS and you will not be having any portion of it. Suddenly you're the bad guy, and so ultimately I think it's important that we take away from this - if you feel as though the black women in Corporate America or in your spaces or at your jobs are angry, perhaps they have a right to be, right? There is this phenomenon I've noticed. I mean, I haven't conducted a federally-funded study of this, so there's that. Most of this is from my own personal experiences.Zach: Right, right.Ade: But I've noticed that, you know, these companies will bring in somebody who meets their diversity quota. So in this situation we're talking about bringing a black woman in to your notoriously anti-black misogynistic spaces, and you just leave her to sink or swim, right? And so this woman is cataloging all the ways in which you could be doing better as an organization and saying, "Hey, I have noticed that this is trash, and these are the ways in which you could do better," and instead of, you know, actually paying attention and doing better like the [inaudible] claim that you are, you ignore her. You shut her down. You make her feel as though she is imagining things or pulling things out of thin air or that she is in fact the problem, and then when she finally gets fed up and goes, "You know what? Y'all got it. I'm good," suddenly she is the insane one in the scenario, or suddenly she's the one that's making a big deal out of nothing, or she's playing the victim, and this mass gaslighting of black women in Corporate America 1. is trash, 2. honestly, I feel as though we can't be the only ones who see it, right?Zach: No. We're definitely--no, definitely not. Definitely not.Ade: And even further, here are some concrete ways in which I believe everyone could reach a hand out to the women in your circle. One, it is not enough for you to simply have a diversity and inclusion program. I mean, that's cool and all, but a lot of your diversity and inclusion programs are--flimsy is the word I want to use. It's the one G-rated word that I have off the top of my head to describe your diversity and inclusion programs. They're flimsy, and they do not actually take into account the needs and experiences of the populations that you want to actually address. So for one, every person that you hire, period, should feel like they're able to bring their whole selves to work. And I don't say--I'm not saying that they should show up to work in an unprofessional manner or that they should show up to work and bring drama or chaos to work. That's clearly not what I'm saying, and I'm hoping that you people hear me when I say that. What I am saying is that I should not feel as though I have to decipher what it is that you want from me as an employee because you are uncomfortable just speaking to me like I am a regular human being. I should not feel as though I don't know what the company culture is, because it is your responsibility as the company who creates the culture to communicate that clearly and honestly and fairly. Give me a fair shot to show that not only do I belong here, I can thrive here. And more importantly, do not put the onus on your individual employees to change the entire company structure. It is unfair. It is irrational to say that, "Well, they didn't say that they wanted an employee resource group," or "They didn't say that they needed sponsorship programs that would, you know, put the black women on partnership track," or "They didn't say that they needed XYZ in order to be more successful." It is--it is your responsibility as the managers, as the directors, as the partners, to reach out, because you are the ones with power in your hands to do something about the situation and the environment that your employees are in. And if you are a black woman who finds herself at work and incapable of really navigating your career to the best of your abilities, for one I am sorry. It's trash. It is a terrible situation to be in, to feel as though you have walked a thousand miles, you've crossed deserts, you have swam oceans. You have done everything above and beyond where you felt that you needed to be, where everybody else needed to be, and you walk into the room and people are still questioning your right and your ability to be in there and succeed. That's trash. Secondly, find allies. Find a safe space. Find somebody who is able to look outside of themselves and see you and really want to help you, and I am sorry that, again, it seems to be your responsibility to do so, but we gonna be alright. And thirdly, and I can't stress this enough, find a therapist, and here's why I say find a therapist. You will have days at work, some days, that make you feel as though it is all in your head and you really have no idea what's going on, but when you write things down and you're able to really talk through what happened and why you feel the way that you do at work it really helps. It helps you see yourself, see the truth of the situation, and also create, like, a plan of attack as to how you're going to address the nonsense that you are--that you are facing. I wish all of you love and light. I think we said all of that--not to be performative, but in the show notes we'll have a list of suggested readings for anyone who is interested in really learning about the crux of the conversation today, which was black feminism. We'll have some books, including Feminista Jones's book called Reclaiming Our Space, to help those who are interested in really helping black women at work. Zach, do you have any thoughts?Zach: I mean, nah. You said everything right there. I don't want to really encroach on your space. You did a phenomenal job. Let's continue on with our Favorite Things. You ready?Ade: All right, guys. Favorite Things. So this week, my Favorite Thing, it's called The Self-Taught Programmer by Cory Althoff. Actually, let me read the whole title. The Self-Taught Programmer: The Definitive Guide to Programming Professionally, and I've been reading this book, I mean, for the last couple of days between studying, and it feels good. I mean, it's giving some super actionable advice. It's not, like, a code-heavy or an algorithm-heavy book. Instead it talks about many of the habits that you need to build to be--like, to be really successful and have a sustainable trajectory, and it's been amazing. What about you?Zach: Yeah, so my Favorite Thing right now is obviously Feminista Jones's new book Reclaiming Our Space. It was a great, powerful, approachable read when you talk about around all items of black feminism. I love Feminista Jones's work, and what's refreshing about this book is that it captures the same unapologetic energy that she has, like, that's really part of her brand, and it just captures it well in this book. I think a lot of times you can end up kind of reading someone's book and it's like, "Man, this does not really capture your voice at all." It just doesn't really, like, align with things that I've read or things that I've--other things that I've seen come from you." This is not that, and it's also really convicting, right? Like, it--again, I think--I know rather that black women are often---their voices and experiences are often minimized, even when it comes to inclusion and diversity discussions or equity discussions, often times with black men being the predominant character in the--in the narratives that we drive, right? So, like, even when you talk--like, a prominent example would be police brutality, and they always say, you know, "Black men are killed at XYZ rate that's disproportionate," and that's true, black men are killed at ridiculously disproportionate rates compared to their white counterparts, but do you know who's killed at even higher rates disproportionate to their white counterparts? Black women, right? But, like, we don't--but when you talk about, like, the common talking headline, we don't say that. We don't say--we don't even just say "black people," we say "black men," right? Like, there's a desire to center them, to center us, in a space that--it's not even accurate, right? It's not even the whole truth, and I think that, you know, it's important for black men to recognize--and we talked about this during the interview as well, but to recognize that yes, we are--we are on the receiving end of oppression and white supremacy. We also benefit from a patriarchal society, and there are ways that we benefit from patriarchy that black women do not, and it is important for us to leverage that little bit of privilege that we have to help black women, 'cause they don't have--they don't have it. And that reminds me, we actually have a couple copies of her book, and we'll be giving them away. Yeah. So if you want to be entered in the drawing to win a copy of Feminista Jones's book Reclaiming Our Space, @ us a screenshot of a 5-star review on iTunes and caption Living Corporate, okay? So go on Instagram, take a picture, screenshot your 5-star review on iTunes, and then tag us in it, and we'll make sure to put you in the drawing so you can get the book.Ade: Dope. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. That's it for us today. This has been Ade.Zach: This has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

Zach and Ade officially kick off Living Corporate Season 2 by announcing new… well, just about everything! New guests and blog posts, weekly tips provided by Tristan Layfield, and even new background music! They also discuss the expansion of Favorite Things and listener letters for Season 2.Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com or send us a DM on any of our social media platforms to submit your Favorite Things and listener letters!TRANSCRIPTZach: Ayo!Ade: What's good?Zach: We're back, we're back. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Living Corporate Season 2.Ade: Sure is.Zach: Season 2, let's go. Look, more intentional--is it more intentional? Does more intentional--is that grammatically correct?Ade: I--I do believe so, yeah.Zach: Okay, great. More intentional. Bolder. More fun. What kind of topics do we have this season, Ade? I feel like we've got some hot stuff.Ade: We do. So this season we're gonna be talking about interesting stuff like supporting black when at work, which I personally am a fan of. Being disabled while other at work, respectability politics. I mean, the real behind the helpfulness of HR. Being Latinx at work. We have a ton more content. We got some great feedback from the blog last season as well, so we're continuing that this year. Definitely, definitely, definitely make sure you check us out. It'll be on our website, living-corporate.com, and on our Medium page.Zach: In the off-season, right, we actually made some moves, okay? So we bought more domains, right? Okay, so we got livingcorporate.tv. We got livingcorporate.co. We got livingcorporate.org. We really have every Living Corporate. We have livingcorporate.net, right? We have every Living Corporate besides livingcorporate.com, because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Ade: Hold on. Now, this is the first I'm hearing of this. I have to fight Australia for--what?Zach: So it's a company in Australia, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they have livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other Living Corporates without the dashes, right, and the hyphens, so we're making these moves. Definitely excited about the blog. Like, that's gonna be great. Like, everybody isn't a podcast person, right? Like, we have this podcast. We love our podcast. The podcast is probably 90%, 95%, right, as we currently stand of what we have going on, but we want to better diversify our media offerings, because people engage in content in different ways, and we really believe in what we're doing. I would hate--I would hate for all the great things that we have going on to not be captured or not be absorbed rather. And speaking of more content and engaging people in different ways... some of y'all probably remember Tristan Layfield. Ade: Aye.Zach: Yes. He was a guest on the show last season on the episode--it was a B-Side for Landing the Job of Your Dreams. And he's a resume subject matter expert in terms of how to write them, and he's a career coach. Doing great stuff, right? Doing great stuff, and he's graciously offered to be a part of the Living Corporate team for Season 2 to give y'all his own nuggets of wisdom, and he's gonna put 'em on the show.Ade: Amazing. Shout-out to Tristan.Zach: To me that's crazy, right? Shout-out to Tristan Layfield and Layfield Resume, man. Like, shout-out to those folks over there. He's doing great work. In fact, can we get some applause? Can we get some applause for us right now, like, collaborating, sharing spaces?Ade: Totally.Zach: I mean, come on. Let's do that. Let's do that. Maybe even some air horns too, I don't know. That reminds me though, [inaudible] sound effects, drops and stuff like that, we're also gonna new background music this season. Now, look. We got a lot of feedback. People are really feeling the background music. I'm gonna call it blackground music, right? It's jazzy. It's soulful. It's refreshing, right? It's good. It's good. We've gotten good feedback on it. So we're excited about the fact that we're gonna have some new blackground music this season and new mixes for our SoundCloud. So look, we have a decent amount of followers on SoundCloud. Of course we have our most followers on Instagram, but look, on our SoundCloud, y'all, we drop mixes and, like, custom music. I know, I know, I know. You're like, "What? Y'all doing a lot." I know. Ade: We got the aux cord.Zach: We got the aux cord, we got the aux cord. And listen, the mixes are fire. They're not--there's no profanity or nothing on 'em, so when your colleagues at work, when they ask, "Hey, Jamal, do you have any music you'd like for us to play? We're having a late-night working session here." This actually happened to me when I was in Japan working with my colleagues. They were like, "Hey, let's get some music going on. Let's get some music going on." So one of my colleagues, I'm not gonna say who it was, wanted to play some Nickelback. I was like--Ade: Now, hold on. Hold on, hold on. What? Zach: Okay. So Nickelback, yeah. And I'm like, "Hey, uh, Brock, if you could just hand me the charger--hand me the aux and I'll handle it." And I take the aux cord, I'm playing the music, and let me tell you. Fire. We had a good time. They were like, "Ooh, what mix is this?" Then--another example and I'll stop--I had an orientation. So at my job, my new job, orientation. For some reason they were like, "Hey, our music isn't really working." Like, "Our playlist isn't working." I said, "Okay, cool." I plugged in my little--plugged in the SoundCloud, right? Work and Weekend Vibes Volume 1. Man. The guy, right? Senior guy who was coordinating the whole thing goes, "Hey, this is--hey. Hey. Hey, guy! Hey. Music's pretty good." I said, "Thank you. Thank you." It was great. It was great. We had a great time. So the point is we're gonna have more of that, okay? And it's gonna be fire, so we need y'all to check it out. Now, I talked about drops, right? Like, we talked about kind of, like, sound effects and stuff like that. Ade, what kind of drops should we have? Like, we're not a hip hop podcast, right? Like, we're not gonna have gunshots, right?Ade: I mean, you know what? I just feel like there are occasions in which something so fire was said that a gunshot or two might be appropriate. Zach: [laughing] That's so problematic.Ade: Listen, listen. I just feel as though there are some celebrations that require a *brap-brap* or two.Zach: A *brap-brap*! [laughs] Well, the funny thing is that culturally, right, culturally, like, there are different--you know, it's just--it's different. I've seen videos, man, of cats, like, just--I saw a video at a wedding. Everybody had guns, shooting them thangs off at the end, right? Like, as opposed to throwing rice they was throwing bullets in the air. It was crazy.Ade: So listen, as someone who has been to many a Jamaican function, yes. That's all I'm gonna say to that.Zach: Word? That's the wave? That's the wave? I don't know. That's--wow.Ade: I mean, a graduation, a baby shower...Zach: A baby shower? They're shooting--wait, whoa, whoa. They're letting 'em go at the baby shower?Ade: Nothing is complete--no celebration is truly complete until there's gunshots in the air.Zach: Until you let them thangs go? Wow. So this is the scary part about gunshots, right, is that when you shoot 'em up like that, I mean, just because of the way that gravity works, they're gonna fall, right? They're gonna come back.Ade: [laughing] What goes up surely must come down.Zach: [laughing] They're coming down. Can you imagine? Like, that is scary. You're in your house and you hear [sound of bullets dropping], and it's not rain? Like, "That is the smallest, fastest hail I've ever heard in my life."Ade: All I want to say is that [the sound Zach made] is not how guns sound.Zach: [laughs] When they fall. When they fall though. When they fall.Ade: You know what? I still don't feel like metal sounds like [the sound] when it falls on the ground. Feel free to correct me on this one.Zach: You don't think so? [laughs] I just think--I just think because they're so small. Like, they're bullets. They've already been fired, so they're not--Ade: I mean, that's cute and all, but metal just doesn't sound like that.Zach: It don't sound like that? That's [inaudible].Ade: No. I also know that if I ever need some on the spot sound effects you're not gonna be the guy that I go to for--Zach: Wow. My sound effects are fire.Ade: Are they though? Because thus far you've given me [the sound] and *brap-brap*.Zach: So I've asked you--so look, we've completely derailed, right? I asked you what sound effects we need. You've only--you've suggested gunshots.Ade: Okay, first of all, I didn't suggest gunshots. I said that gunshots should not be entirely out of our arsenal--see what I did there?Zach: Wow. Bars.Ade: [laughs] Should not be entirely out of our arsenal of sound effects. That's all I am saying personally.Zach: So what are we thinking? Are we thinking, like, maybe stuff from, like, a different world? Right? Like, I don't know--Ade: You know what? I don't--I feel like we should stay away from, like, sitcom-y sounds, but also just not be dead... so there is an in-between here, and we just have to walk the road and find it.Zach: We do. So yeah, more on that. We'll figure out what exactly those sounds are.Ade: See the wisdom I just applied there without saying anything at all?Zach: No, no, you did. No, no, it was good. It was good, it was good. Ade: I appreciate my roses when I get them. I'm sorry. I'm acting a fool today. All right.Zach: Okay.Ade: Back to it. Favorite Things are back.Zach: Yeah, they back.Ade: However, this year--stay with me here--we want y'all to submit some of your Favorite Things.Zach: There you go.Ade: That's right. I'm tired of being clowned for my Favorite Things. I feel as though it is only fair that we open up our space to include others, open up our horizons by sharing with us what brings you some joy or the next week or the week after that.Zach: And you know what? Speaking of, like, sharing things, like, let me just--let me just talk about what we're sharing today, okay? We're sharing space. So you may say, "Well, yes, Zach, we are sharing space in this corporate structure as non-white people in majority-white working places, and yes, we have to figure out ways to share and navigate space--" No, no, no. I'm not talking about. I'm talking about we're practically sharing space today. Ade is sharing space in a golf room of her--of her apartment. So if you hear this, like, whooshing sound in the background, those are not beheadings. That's a man swinging at a golf ball with fiber in his being. He is hitting it as hard as he possibly can. He knows--Ade: As hawrd? Zach: Hawrd. Hawrd, yes, as he--as he possibly can. He knows that we are in this room, and this is how he's choosing to share the space with us. So--Ade: I just--first of all, he's--like, this is--this is the intended purpose of the room.*SMACK*Ade: That's one. Two, let it never be said that I don't go to some extremes for Living Corporate, okay? Because I have recorded--Zach: No, you've made--this is up there with when you recorded that show with Christa in the closet with all the blankets on top of your body.Ade: I have contorted myself into some very interesting places for Living Corporate, so I just--again, I appreciate my flowers when they are given to me.Zach: No, you are--you are appreciated, it's just I don't want to be implicated in any type of murder.Ade: See? See? Why you gotta be like that? *SMACK*Zach: Because it sounds--because it sounds so scary to me, right? Like, it sounds--Ade: Imagine being the person.Zach: Man, no, no. That sounds terrifying. Okay, let's continue. So I know we talked about Favorite Things. Listener letters.Ade: All right. Listener letters. So we're taking both Favorite Things and listener letters, wherever you're choosing to submit them. So whether you want to email them, DM us on social media--preferably Instagram, but wherever we be at, you be at--submit your Favorite Things, and we will absolutely shout you out, share your Favorite Things, and maybe talk through some of the irritating things, or awesome things, that are going on in your corporate world. So if you want to talk about your coworker accusing you of stealing their lunch, drop us a line. If you want to talk about the amazing win that you've had or the proposal that you just won or the grants that you just wrote or just about the fact that you don't feel like you're getting anywhere in your career at all. Whatever it is you want to share, let us know. We're here. What else?Zach: I mean, that's a good--that's a good point. We really want--we definitely want the letters, right? And we definitely want the Favorite Things, so just submit 'em. Like, we're flexible. We're available, right? We're here for y'all. We got all these domains, right? We got all these different social media platforms. DMs open on all of 'em, you know what I'm saying? You just hit us up. Of course we prefer it in email, so who cares? Send it to us.Ade: [laughs] Who cares what our preference is?Zach: Yeah, who cares about our preference? We are here to serve y'all. That's serving leadership, you see what I mean? Because we love y'all, you hear?Ade: I see you, change manager. I see you. Zach: That's right. Look, you gotta put yourself last, okay?Ade: I don't know about all that. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "Wait a minute. Hold on."Ade: [laughs] Hold on, now. Nah, nah.Zach: "Hold on, hold on. Not last. Maybe not first." What about second to first? All right, so what else? Okay, yeah, yeah. So look. Now, we've said this--we've said this multiple times, and I need, like, some--I need, like, some softer sentimental music, kind of like the music before you donate to those dogs and stuff with their eyes all big and the cats, and they look all sad. I need that in the background. Ade: [supplies sad music acapella style]Zach: Listen, y'all know that we need 5 stars. Y'all know that we need 5 star ratings.Ade: You know I'm not about to do this with you, right? [laughs]Zach: For a simple two seconds. A one-time donation of 2 seconds. You can actually contribute to the over-arching health and promotion of the Living Corporate podcast if you just slide over to iTunes, the podcast section. Scroll down on Living Corporate's little page on the podcast. It's gonna say, "Leave a review. Leave a rating." You're gonna take your finger, and you're gonna just press 5. 5 stars. Ade: 5 of 'em.Zach: Do you have 5 on it? 'Cause I've had 5 on it, okay? Ade: [singing] I got 5 on it.Zach: Now, we're not gonna get copy--we're not gonna sued for that because we didn't play the audio. Ade: We didn't, and also Jordan Peele has made it kind of creepy, so...Zach: Yes, he has, and so we actually probably won't even reference that again. Ade: Yeah, that's gonna be the first and the last time we do that on the sh ow.Zach: Facts. But look, really, we need 5 stars, okay? So please do us the favor of giving us these 5 stars. And look, let me just go ahead--so that was the--that's kind of like the carrot, you know?Ade: Okay. First of all--there's no stick, number one. Number two, I just want to say we also appreciate your comments that come along with those. So if you want to share any feedback, if you'd like us to bring any guests back or a rerun episode or maybe get a little bit deeper on a topic that we've discussed in the past, let us know. But yeah, give us the 5 stars.Zach: So there's no stick, so I didn't mean it that way. That was me being softer, right? But, like, let me just be practical. We have, like, thousands upon thousands of downloads on our podcast every month, and yet we only have, like, 120 reviews. Ade: It's very hurtful.Zach: Right? It hurts me, right? I'm like, "Yo." And then people will be like--and then people be on Instagram, "This podcast influences me the most every day. I love listening to this podcast," and I feel the love, I do, but I would feel it more if I could get some of these 5 star reviews. So what can we do to, like, help support 5 star reviews? Like, how can we--how can we encourage the audience to participate in 5 star reviews, Ade?Ade: I have an idea.Zach: All right, go ahead.Ade: We could do giveaways. Zach: Giveaways? Giveaways is a--okay, okay, but what are we--what are we giving away? 'Cause it's not like we have--Ade: If you send us screenshots of your review, you enter a drawing. How's that sound?Zach: Right, but what do we have though? It's not like we have any, I mean--Ade: I mean, we do have Living Corporate mugs--hold on, I'm pretty certain we do. We have mugs.Zach: So that's an announcement, right? So that's, like, a two-in-one, right? We have mugs, and we're gonna do giveaways.Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay, so we do have mugs. I agree that we should do giveaways, so let's do that. Yeah, so we have, like, these Living Corporate mugs, y'all, and they're actually pretty cute. They're really cute. They're big, so, like, you know, you can put a lot of whatever your drink of choice is.Ade: Coffee. We're drinking coffee.Zach: Coffee. Listen, let's not--Ade: Although if you're making--if you're adding a little whiskey in there, that's between you and your cup.Zach: I've seen it. It's potatoes between you and your cup. Don't ask me about what's in my cup, you know? I won't ask.Ade: I really feel like that needs to be a thing. "Don't ask me about what is in my cup."Zach: Don't ask me about what's in my cup. No, I mean, I've seen it, and, you know--like, you see it on TV a lot, right? And I don't think it's, like, crazy, but I have seen people have a little something at the bottom of their drawer for the end of the day. I've seen that before. More so in industry. I've definitely never seen it in consulting, but I have seen it in industry. So okay. Cool, cool, cool. So yes, we definitely will do the giveaways. And they're not on the website yet, right? Like, we don't have the merch on the website, but we do have mugs. And we're not popping enough, I don't think, to justify us trying to sell y'all some mugs, okay, but we do have mugs that we can give out for free to encourage y'all to support the Living Corporate team.Ade: Word. Zach: What else? What else? Okay, okay, okay. So, you know, really this season of Living Corporate--so, you know, we learned a lot, right? Like, last season, of course it just being our first season--we're not even a year old yet. You know, coming in, just trying to figure out, like, what the tone is gonna be, how we address topics. And so y'all, really though, expect more intentional, like, commentary and content and just, like, general topics. Expect more fun, right? So we're gonna try to be a little bit more laid-back. Last year was really scripted. We got that feedback a lot, but we were trying to just make sure that we were keeping things succinct and tight, and we didn't want to miss--Ade: Because as you can see, we have a tendency to stray completely off-topic and wander down alleys of distraction, but--Zach: But, you know, it is what it is. And the thing--and the thing about it is, I think--I think the other point is, like, more people than not have said, "Hey, you know, we'd really like to, like, get to know y'all more." Like, "We'd like to get know you and Ade more, understand y'all's relationship. We'd like to get to know other people on the team. You said you've got other folks around." Like, "We'd like to get to know people more," and I think there's way that we can both approachable and personable and at the same time being, you know, still--like, still stick true to what it is we really ultimately want to talk about. But yeah, I just wanted to let y'all--just say that part, because we're really excited about this season, you know? Y'all know. Y'all know it's a crazy time out here. 45 got all us messed up. Yeah, I said it. I said it. Ade: I mean, these are just facts.Zach: They're facts. They're facts. They're facts. They're Facts Kellerman, okay? They're--[laughs] Hey, side-note. So apparently somebody in the DMV--Ade told me that some people be walking around saying "factory." [laughs]Ade: Hold on, what?Zach: So, you know, people will be like, "Facts." Ade: That sounds--that sounds like something that you say in, like, Waldorf. Zach: [laughs] You said "factory." Like, "factory?" That's not--no, factory is a whole different word. That's--no, that doesn't work.Ade: Nope, nope. And I know that there is, like, a trend of saying things are true when they aren't, word to your president, but...Zach: Factory.Ade: I'm here to categorically deny any and all claims that we say that in the DMV. We just--we do not.Zach: Yeah, no. That's not gonna work. Ade: Actually, let me not--let me not do that, because the teeny-boppers might. But what do they know? They're teeny-boppers.Zach: They don't know. They don't know. "Factory" is not the way. "Factory" is a whole other word. But the point is, you know, it's just a crazy time. Like, we know it is. We see--we're seeing stories of, like, blatant inequity and inequality and oppression and just general wrong-doing every day, and, you know, there's plenty of spaces that you can engage for, like, fairly moderate, semi-safe, (rarely?) wholly-safe discussions around--dialogues around race. Or, you know, you can tune into CNN or whatever for that. You can tune into anything else for that. Like, we're trying to have, like--Ade: Tune into who?Zach: I was saying, like, CNN. You know CNN. They'll be like, "A Dialogue On Race: Part 1." "A Dialogue On Race: Part 2." You know? Like, we're not trying to have quote-unquote a dialogue. Like, we're trying to really center and respect and give credence to the perspectives of people that are not often heard, right? Irrespective of how senior they may be in the organization or what their education level is. They're not heard, they're not seen, and so, like, we're trying to drive content that centers them, that affirms that, and that really continues to encourage folks to be thoughtful and empathetic to their neighbor. And, like, that's what we're trying to do. So, you know, this season is gonna be--our hope is it's gonna be way more courageous in that way. Not to say we weren't courageous in Season 1, but, like, I want to--I want to be more courageous season-to-season, right? Ade: Right, and to add to that and not interrupt you--my bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good.Ade: Part of centering the voices of black and brown folks in this space means we're not going to be doing the "there are good people on both sides" BS, because I'm sorry, like, you're not gonna equate my voice to that of a Nazi.Zach: Right, yeah. That's super true.Ade: That's, like--of all the things that we're gonna do, that's just not going to be one of them on this here platform. And I'm sure there are--I mean, there are plenty of spaces in which you could do that. This just is not going to be one of those, and I'm perfectly comfortable categorically saying that.Zach: Yeah, straight up. Because this is the thing, like, it's not--and I think that's the other issue, like a lot of times when we have conversations like these, we present it like, "Oh, well, you know, both sides just need to understand." Like, no, both sides don't really need to understand. Like, one side needs to be more empathetic and conscious of their behaviors, actions, and their privileges, and the other side--the other side don't need to do nothing. Like, nah. I was gonna say we should be more--you know, we could be gracious and just kind of, like, be willing to receive the help, but, I mean, nah. Like, a lot of times we don't even necessarily need help as much as we just don't need harm. You know what I mean? And so anyway, I--Ade: You're my fav, Zach.Zach: What'd you say, Ade?Ade: You're my fav.Zach: [laughs]Ade: 'Cause you got there, 'cause I really was about to be like, "What was that?" No, but the fundamental premise remains that it's actually harmful that the conversation is constantly asking those without power to be gracious and to have mercy and be kind and do all of the emotional labor for those with power, and I'm not just speaking to racial dynamics. I'm also speaking in any and all forms of--and we know that intersectionality is a thing--but speaking to any and all forms of misaligned dynamics, power dynamics, and the onus is almost always on the oppressed to coddle the oppressor, and I'm just gonna say that 2019, it's not--that's not the wave we're on. You're either catching up or you're getting left behind, and I feel like we just took a very, like, sharp revolutionary turn [inaudible], so let's dial it back and talk about our social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Man, it did. I was like, "Dang, if I take that ball back and I continue with this wave, the next pivot's gonna be too aggressive." Let's transition back onto Instagram.Ade: [laughs] Right? This is the kickoff episode. Let's treat it as such.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ade: And we've definitely been going on for a nice little while now.Zach: [laughs] Well, this is the thing, right? Historically you're absolutely right, that it's often been the oppressed's job to massage the feelings, emotions, of the people who have--who are the oppressors, who are the people with authority, who have the power, privilege and access.Ade: One more thing and I promise I'll shut up.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I won't.Zach: No, don't shut up. Go ahead.Ade: Here's the other thing. I wonder how much more we could be doing, and by we I mean just people who fall on the wrong side of the power dynamics. I wonder how much more we could be doing if we didn't expend all of this time and effort and energy and just emotional labor on managing the emotions of others, right? I wonder how much more--I think of it as "If I spend all of this time thinking through what my words will sound like as a woman, as a black woman, as a black immigrant, as a queer woman, as a Muslim..." Like, all of these things. So I think about all of the time that I think that I spend expending time and energy on making sure that I present myself appropriately. If I just took some of that time back, do you know how much more time I would have? How much more energy I would have to expend on things like sleeping?Zach: Straight up.Ade: Right? Or...Zach: Exercising. Drinking more water.Ade: Drinking more water, which--by the way, if you're listening with us right now go ahead and grab yourself a glass of water and just sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip. Anyway, but I think the fundamental point remains that--and I'm not saying that everyone goes around all of the time carrying that weight, but it is a significant amount of time, and it's almost not even a conscious thing that you do anymore, that you, as a woman, apologize for speaking in a meeting. Like, "Sorry, I just wanted to say that..." What are you apologizing for, sis? Just say what you have to say. Say it with your chest. But that's part of this, like, training that you get as being the person on the wrong side of the power dynamics. In 2019, I would just like to say "That's done." That's canceled. That is over.Zach: That is canceled. We're not doing that, and, like, we really want for people to come here and genuinely feel affirmed. Like, I'll give a really quick story. So, like, when I was in Japan--first of all, Japan is amazing. I can't wait to go back. Beautiful country. I was in Tokyo. It's a beautiful city. And I'm walking just--like, I'm walking down the street, and I see, like, another young black man, and we kind of look at each other. I give him the nod, he gives me the nod, and I'm walking, and then, like, I kind of turn over my shoulder, and he's, like, turning over his shoulder at the same time, and, like, he's looking at me. Like, we're looking at each other again, and we smiled, and I just kind of--I turned back around and I was just like, "Dang," and, like, I ain't gonna lie. Like, call it corny, call it cheesy or whatever. That made me feel really good. Like, I felt great, and I carried, like, this little awkward smile with me for, like, I don't know, maybe like a minute, right? And there were no words exchanged. There was just a certain level of just--there was a certain level of power and just love that you felt from just being acknowledged and seeing someone in a space that you did not expect to see someone that looked like you look like you, and then they see--y'all see each other. And, like, Living Corporate, I think that whatever we can do to give--I would love for everybody to feel that feeling that I had that evening, for those, like, 65, 70 seconds. It was a great feeling.Ade: That's dope.Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: All right, let's close this out.Zach: Oh, yeah. Social media, social media. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, so follow us on social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Okay. So on Instagram we're @LivingCorporate, on Twitter we're @LivingCorp_Pod, then we got--well, Living Corporate, if you just Google us, you'll see us on LinkedIn. We're everywhere, so make sure you check us out. We're everywhere that y'all are, and I think that does it for us on the show. Remember, this is the kickoff. We have more content coming for you. [in accent] More fire for your head top. Was that a good accent? Or not really?Ade: No, sir. Please never do that again. Be blessed.Zach: [laughs]Ade: No, be best. Don't do that.Zach: Be best. [laughs] Ade: Whoo, all right.Zach: All right. Well, this has been Zach. Ade: This has been Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.

  Zach - Hey everybody, welcome to Brotherhood Without Manners a Game of Thrones podcast by Game of Thrones fans for Game of Thrones fans. Zach - I'm Zach- Nate - and I am Nate- Zach - And we are two brothers who- Nate - Have no manners what so ever. Zach - Well, obviously that's in the name right there, but we absolutely fell in love with George R.R Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series when we read it and we couldn't seem to ever shut the fuck up about it. Nate - So here we are. Zach - So here we are we said why not throw it into a podcast. We will be doing a full spoiler reread of the entire series. Uhh Game of Thrones through a Dance with Dragons and possibly some of the other books. Later on down the line, but right now we're mainly focused on the main series. Nate - So this isn't a s how related podcast as of yet, Zach - We'll probably throw in some shi...show references. Nate - Right, that doesn't mean that we're not going to. Zach - I mean with the last season on the horizon anyway- Nate - But our cannon is specifically focused on the books, Zach - Right Nate - And so not the show but again, we are also big fans of the show Zach - Now you don't have to if you haven't read the books before or you aren't starting to reread with us you don't have to worry about any spoilers in this episode this episode we just want to familiarize you guys with us and get to know who we are ummm, and just a little bit about us why we're so obsessed with martin's podcast. Nate - Okay, So one of the first things that we wanted to dive into is how we even discovered Game of Thrones as a series Zach - Cause you read it first. Nate - I read it first and then fucking you. Took how many years of me prodding and begging to get you to get your ass to read it- Zach - I remember specifically I would try reading it and I would get through the prologue and half of brans first chapter and I would think nope not for me because it reminded me so much of Lord of the Rings and Lord of the Rings I I could never follow the lineage the chain...the chain of names that you had to go through so I thought it was another one of those little did I know Nate - That's the big factor that draws everyone to it... Zach - Absolutely Nate - So when I first was introduced to it it was maybe a year before the TV show was put out on to HBO. Zach - Probably like twenty ten. Nate - And so yeah, it was..uh I was working at the radio station and the DJ I was interning for gave me the book as a Christmas present and he said you've got to read this they're making it a show just do it. And so thankfully he gave that to me and I spent years by myself just Zach - (Laughing) Nate - Wondering if I would ever- have somebody Zach - I do things in my own time, get off my back umm, I Yeah. Yeah. No, I just I couldn't get into it. But when I did when I finally after not only you but many friends around me were shoving this book under my nose saying how have you not read this yet? You've read Potter you you've consumed countless other trilogies and series. Why are you not reading Game of Thrones? I finally decided to give it a chance and I said alright I'm gonna finish this was after the show. You had shown me the show at this point. So we had watched season 1 So I was a little bit spoiled on it but I loved how actually word for word season 1 and book 1 were and that I mean how would you not get hooked on book 1 by the end of it? Nate - Right. Zach - There's just so much to you know, what's gonna happen with so-and-so and what happened with certain characters and- Nate - So because obviously we had different introductions to it I gave you a bit of a bit of background on it trying to get you into the book but based off of that and what you can remember what was It you were actually expecting Game of Thrones. Just to be Lord of the Rings?- Zach - I still, I..I...I, I still remember the way you described it to me you said it was like a group of Sith Inquisitors trying to take a royal throne and so you you through the Star Wars reference in there, which of course it's gonna hook me but So I...I actually went in thinking it was gonna be a little more sci-fi than fantasy and I mean I wasn't disappointed because I do think that this could technically classify as sci-fi in this in this crazy crazy world of Planetos, That were on Nate - I think in the meta scheme of things. Absolutely- Zach - But I I thought it was gonna be another Lord of the Rings a carbon copy of you know, here's good Here is evil. Here's the line. Let's do battle and it'll be a great fun adventure then I heard Martin explained himself that the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself and that quote alone. Just kind of epitomizes what the series is is everyone in conflict with themselves which is just so fascinating to read let alone the slew of characters we go through it with not just you know, we're not just with Legolas Aragorn Gimli we're with Eddard Stark and Sansa Stark and Catelyn Stark- Nate - And their house and then we're in this house with this group of people Zach - Exactly Yeah- Nate - It's not just one- group Zach - So widespread. What did uh... Nate - So for me like cause uh...the way it was introduced to me just being gifted and the guy that gave me the book didn't really give me much to go on so I didn't really have any expectations Zach - Right, right- Nate - And I don't usually because of how name required it was to know all these names know everybody understand to really get a grasp of it I didn't think I was gonna like it I stuck with it just because I really respected that guy he enjoyed it so much and then once I got into it, I was like wow, this is I can't not stop reading i dont know whats going on. Zach - yeah yeah absolutely I...I remember umm...I didn't hear the actual title a Song of Ice and Fire until maybe I'd finished clash I...I...didn't know that the whole Nate - oh that is was the whole Zach - that it was a whole series was called A Song of Ice and Fire and that when I heard that actually I've looked at the books in a new light I've read them in a new light because I was wondering who who does that apply to who is the Song of Ice and Fire about? Is it the whole world? Is it a set of people? Did did that have any sway on you? Did you think anything Nate - I, see I I really took that just into I didn't actually look at it as how it applied to the story for a long time umm, because similarly. I just thought it was a you know play on the houses and the very basic of it. Zach - Right, because there's nothing to read into in Game of Thrones- Nate - right not at all- Zach - between the lines- Nate - And so at the time the only other named trip series like that I read the inheritance cycle by Paolini and the Eragon books and I really enjoyed those but that was the the I think it's called the inheritance cycle Zach - Yes Nate - that's the title of the the series and I hadn't really heard much of that because you know you had Lord of the Rings and you had the two towers but umm, Granted I'm probably just stupid and there actually is a whole term for the Lord of the Rings groupbut like Zach - I dont know if there is, yeah so you could be right. Nate - So like it was just something I thought was the title to describe the group- Zach - Yeah yeah the grouping of it. Nate - It wasn't I think until really I heard about the the song of the dance of Ice and Fire you know the Song of Ice and Fire in the actual Zach - context of the story Nate - where they were, you know, oh well the Song of Ice and Fire we've got that song like that's actually a thing and Im like oh shhhh.. Zach - yea yea yeah yeah, not to get too far ahead but his is the song of Ice and Fire is actually aligned and yes, absolutely I I just know that this book was unlike anything I had ever read before or since even even today while we're still fingers crossed waiting for winds of winter And we just got fire and blood which I'm currently working my way through right now while waiting for the last season I mean there's a plethora of information that we've been getting new Canon Which is one of the most exciting things to me because fire and blood is just continuously blowing my mind so I'm super excited to dive into this podcast and go chapter by chapter and breakdown and again if you haven't read the books I would only listen to this episode because from this point on we will be looking at chapters in context of the whole series whether Nate - yeah, this is a full reread we've we're going through it having read everything and that's how we're planning on analyzing and discussing these each chapter analytically breaking down each individual one with regards to trying to see the foreshadowing throughout the story as a whole not even just each book but the entire series is we have it all the current lore all the current books which as of this date Includes the new fire and blood book that just came out Which obviously means that a world of Ice and Fire is also out on the table Zach - And Dunk and Egg, Woot WOOT Nate - And so we'll be putting everything in context breaking it down comparing it to the story. You know- Zach - Don't get us wrong. We're by no means experts analytically Literature or any otherwise Nate - We just are massive massive massive fans Zach - Massive fans. I...I mean I think three hours of every day of mine is either spent on a subreddit of Game of Thrones or watching YouTube theories and videos on it or- Nate - or just rereading the books and trying to figure out my own theories Zach - yeah, absolutely. It's an amazing series so if you haven't read it take a minute read the books and come back and listen to us because we would love to hear your discussion We definitely would like everybody to write in and let us know if you have thoughts or questions if we say something completely stupid that you disagree with Nate - Or incorrectly, correct? Zach - I mean Nate's always incorrect. So just correct the shit out of him. But, Ya, no just write in and let us know your thoughts and questions what was your favorite chapter of a Game of Thrones again will be probably be doing it in uh, Two chapter blocks where each episode will cover probably cover about two chapters but um, you know that's subject to change depending on chapter lengths or just a flow some chapters tend to, lead right into the next one quite well, but ya, no, Nate - Not to mention our availability for all that but you know Zach - He's not busy. Don't he's not doing anything except this podcast Nate - and so make sure you hit up all of our socials you can get ahold of us at our Facebook, facebook.com/Brotherhoodpodcast our twitter @mannerswithout our Instagram @brotherhoodwithout we also have an email withoutmannersBrotherhood@gmail.com so hit us up and Stay tuned for our next episode where we're really gonna dive into everything (outro music resembling Game of Thrones theme fades in) Zach - Right in the prologue of Game of Thrones the first book of A Song of Ice and Fire. umm I love the prologue I think it's a great intro to the whole book as a whole and I'm really excited to look at it through the lens of the entire story so hopefully you guys can tune in with us and stop by one of our social media platforms and just say, hello. give us a like, ya know? We're here Nate - Later Yo! Zach - Peace! (Outro music comes to crescendo and ends)

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