Podcasts about mike pearson

Hosts - Allan Wishart and Gerry Dombrowski;Segment 1 - Donna Bartel and Mike Pearson, Tri-ing to End ALS,Segments 2 and 3 - Loralyn Murdoch, UNBC Director of Athletics

Mike and Sean provide an update on the Warren County Jail project, construction update on the courthouse, the report from Warren County Health Department Administrator Jenna Link, the Special Board Meeting April 21st, and more on the WRAM Morning Show.

Mike Pearson, Geoff Kimmerly, and Jim Comparoni were Tim's guests today.

Pearson and Cavanaugh discuss financing of the new Warren County Law Enforcement Center, the downtown construction, openings on the County Board, and more on the WRAM Morning Show.

Fred Heumann, Chris Solari, and Mike Pearson were Tim's guests today.

In this episode of Behind the Human, host Marc Champagne explores the multifaceted life and career of Mike Pearson, North American brand director for Christopher Ward, alongside other experts from the watch industry. Mike discusses balancing a demanding career with personal life as a husband and father, the mental fitness needed for brand expansion, and the transition to a more balanced lifestyle. The conversation explores the significance of timepieces as intention setters and delves into the art and craftsmanship of watchmaking as a metaphor for life's precision. Additionally, Mike shares insights on the resilience required to navigate industry shifts and the intricate parallels between horological mastery and personal growth.     ****   How Prepared is Your Team for the Next Big Disruption? Future-proof your team with Malosiminds.com * Get your copy of Personal Socrates: Better Questions, Better Life   Connect with Marc >>>  Website | LinkedIn | Instagram | Twitter  Drop a review and let me know what resonates with you about the show! Thanks as always for listening and have the best day yet! * A special thanks to MONOS, our official travel partner for Behind the Human! Use MONOSBTH10 at check-out for savings on your next purchase. ✈️ * Special props

Pearson and Cavanaugh highlight the latest Warren County Board meeting with discussions on the proposed budget, the Warren County Law Enforcement Center, vacancy in the Assessor's Office, and more on the WRAM Morning Show.

Mike Pearson and Adam Nightengale were among Tim's guests today.

Everyone's favorite watch brand frontman- Christopher Ward's Mike Pearson (see episode 88)- was kind enough to arrange for us to spend some time with review samples of 2 amazing pieces- the C65 Aquitaine GMT and the sensational "The Twelve". If you've been paying attention to the watch world for the past year or so you already know that The Twelve is one of 2 world-beating timepieces that Christopher Ward has released lately (the other being the Bel Canto). We gave these watches a thorough "time on the wrist" test run and came away impressed. Thanks for listening.

Warren County Board Chairman Mike Pearson and Buildings and Grounds Chairman Sean Cavanaugh discuss the jail, courthouse renovations, approved contracts for the county, and more on the WRAM Morning Show.

Mike Pearson, Blake Lampman, and Stacy Slobodnik-Stoll were Tim's guests today.

Your hosts Dean and Lizzy explore the mind of a very passionate and promising Flex Athlete, Mike Pearson. He is about to get back on stage after a 3 year focused growth phase with Flex Coach Dean. Take a listen to learn how this prep is different and more meaningful than the last, and a discussion on how to believe in yourself. Mentions: @barbellbros_@ transparentsupplements@mikepearson_ Would you rather:A - Not allow your 2 dogs food or water for 72 hours (in winter) ORB - Passionately tongue kiss one of your dogs for 90 seconds Fan of the show?If you find value in the Flex Success Podcast, we'd love it if you could show your support by leaving a review on iTunes. This will help expose the show to a bigger audience so we can help more people be less shit. To find out more about Mike Pearson, head to:https://www.instagram.com/mikepearson_/ To find out more about Flex Success, head to:https://www.flexsuccess.com.au/ https://www.instagram.com/flex_success/ To find out more about Dean & Lizzy, head to:https://www.instagram.com/deanmckillop/ https://www.instagram.com/lizzy_rawdah/ Disclaimers: Flex Success, and the associated coaches, are not doctors or medical professionals. Always consult a physician before starting any exercise program. Use of this information is strictly at your own risk. Flex Success will not assume any liability for direct or indirect losses or damages that may result from the use of the information contained in this video including but not limited to economic loss, injury, illness or death.

Christopher Ward comes to Utah and the guys sit down with Mike Pearson, Brand Director. He shares stories of the past, present and future of the brand. The event is hosted at Forty Three Bakery in Salt Lake City and Andrew, also joins for tea (mostly spilled) and his hottest takes and bakes.

Gator Nation are you ready for a LIVE Monday edition of PodUp with Matthews in the Morning?! Stay Tuned for a full show hosted Florida Gators Football Hall of Fame QB ~ Shane Matthews! Our Good Friends JC is with us for the first half! Second half we'll be joined by Mike Pearson!

In this episode Dan (@timely_moments) sits down with Mike (@mikepearson6). In this episode they talk about Mikes career within watches from cruise ships, through Bremont and culminating with CW Watches. I hope you enjoy an insight into British horology and how it is received in America. References for the episode are below.  Dan - @timely_moments / timelymomentsphotography92@gmail.com Buy me a brew - https://www.buymeacoffee.com/pmgwgzwbq7q?l=fr  The ZT Photo Comp - #ZTPhotoComp Mike Pearson - @mikepearson6 /michael.pearson@christopherward.com Bremont Watches - @bremontwatches Christopher Ward Watches - @chriswardlondon Skin Cancer Information - https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/skin-cancer 500 Years, 100 Watches - https://www.amazon.co.uk/500-Years-Watches-Alexander-Barter/dp/3791379755/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3OTGEGI3DL7JD&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.krCtYp1GQipa-BCIjokEwxU0ftWzwij6i5F3iSw_VPTGjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.kui4SLRWVt8213WMZ6Cc9z_37j4tl0Pk9No5yU3qIN8&dib_tag=se&keywords=500+years+100+watches&qid=1713185214&sprefix=500+years+%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-1

Today's episode comes right after the May WASDE reports. Join us for Mike Pearson's last day as our guest host to recap the report and more!

Join us for another episode of Market Talk with guest host, Mike Pearson. On today's episode we talk with Mike Zuzolo of Global Commodity Analytics, Darin Newsom from Barchart and Dr. Derrell Peel from Oklahoma State University.

Join us for a conversation with John Heinberg from Total Farm Marketing after an active market Monday. Today's show features host Mike Pearson.

In this Episode, we talk about all things Christopher Ward with one of their founders and CEO, Mike France. We talk about some of the history of the brand, where they started, where they are and where they'll be heading as-well as some things that shock Mike France. Grab a beverage, tune in and hang-out as we give another guest the cringe treatment. And as y'all can see, our backdrop isn't the usual studio and instead the Dallas FC Field! Major thank you to Mike France and Mike Pearson for making this happen. If y'all are not aware of Christopher Ward, I urge you to do so sooner than later, they really are out here changing the hobby. Check out their watches at https://www.christopherward.com/ and follow them on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chriswardlondon/?hl=en See you next episode.

Mick Jagger, Liam Gallagher, David Lee Roth, Jeremy Clarkson, and... Mike Pearson? In this episode we are joined by Mike Pearson, the guy who is poised to take British watch brand Christopher Ward to the next level in North America. Mike has been an absolute legend in the enthusiast community for ages, having worked to establish or reinvigorate several big brands in the USA. Mike has been a friend for over a decade, and it's an absolute treat to finally have him on the pod to chat about Land Rovers, football, relaxation, and watches. Thanks for listening!

Mike Pearson, COO at Protocase, discusses high tech manufacturing and mass customization. Protocase is a leading manufacturer of custom electronic enclosures and parts for Science, Engineering and Aerospace. As part of the emerging category of commercial/private space companies, like SpaceX and others, they have developed a unique mass custom manufacturing process that's ultra-fast and flexible. Host, Kevin Craine Do you want to be a guest? DigitalTransformationPodcast.net/guest

Meet Mike Pearson all over again, this time as the North American Brand Director for Christopher Ward. Mike provides us some insight as only he can in his first interview since joining Christopher Ward! You want to make sure to catch this exclusive episode! Show Notes Links (None are Affiliate Links) Veterans Watchmaker Initiative: https://www.veteranswatchmakerinitiative.org/about/   Images and info (credit): Christopher Ward: https://www.christopherward.com/int/home  Mike Pearson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-p-715a281a0/v  Admin Donate to the Veterans Watchmaker Initiative: https://www.veteranswatchmakerinitiative.org/donate-now/  The pod is sponsored by Mushi Watch Straps, a Veteran-Owned Company that makes stylish, durable, and fairly priced watch straps and accessories. Use discount code “VET10” for 10% off your entire purchase at checkout: www.mushiwatchstraps.com  The pod is also brought to you by the Anti Watch Watch Club (AWWC). This 501(c)(3) non-profit organization supports veterans, LEOs, and First Responders via monetary, social, humanitarian, and emotional support. Learn about them here: https://antiwatchclub.org/pages/about-us  Visit https://www.watchrolling.com/ for Veteran Resources, articles, and more cool watch-related stuff. and remember, at WatchRolling.com-"You make the watch; the watch doesn't make you." Dial 988 then Press 1 is a new option for contacting the Veterans Crisis Line, the original number: 1-800-273-8255 and press 1, remains available, and Veterans can continue to reach out via chat at https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/get-help-now/chat/  or by text to 838255. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/watchrollingpod/support

This is the best of 2023. We revisit our best episodes of 2023 wjich include interviews with David Reynolds Driver of the #26 Penrite Racing Mustang, Matt Payne Driver of the #19 Penrite Racing Mustang, Toby Dymond CEO of Penrite Oil Mark Chapman Top Doorslammer Chapman Brothers Racing, Steven Salvarinas an avid Model Car Collector, Andy Kahle of Therapy on Wheels and Mike Pearson of Beat the Heat WA,Phil Platcher and Daniel Swindley of Aussie Garage TV, Motorvation 37 Grand Champion Winner Mitch Rando and Nick Cockinos just to name a few.

Mike Pearson joined Tim in studio in the 3rd hour. Geoff Kimmerly was on as well.

Jean-Claude Biver is one of the most important individuals in modern watchmaking, a man with a legendary CV and a long legacy. These days, though, it's his own name on the dial, and when Felix had a surprise interview at Dubai Watch Week, it was finding out how Biver senior has transitioned from running mega watch groups to working with a small family business. Of course, when you get the chance to chat with someone who's done it all, you ask the big questions about the future of the watch industry and whether or not it's selfish to put your own name on the dial.  But before all this, we get the second instalment of our chat with Zodiac's Mike Pearson and find out why the brand is focussing on its core. This episode is sponsored by Zodiac. Find out about their watches here, or if you're in Australia, check them out online and in person at Time+Tide. Cartier Curious? Join our Discord. Show Notes: https://www.otpodcast.com.au/show-notes The Killer on Netflix The Fall of the House of Usher Biver Watches Biver Watches on Instagram How to follow us: Instagram: @ot.podcast Facebook: @OTPODCASTAU Follow hosts: @fkscholz + @andygreenlive on Instagram. Send us an email: otthepodcast@gmail.com If you liked our podcast - please remember to like/share and subscribe.

Alan Bloore — better known as Hammer — is a legend in the world of collecting, particularly when it comes to Panerai. He's been collecting watches since the 1980s, and, in a few days, Hammer's watch collection is going under the hammer at Sotheby's New York. Hammer is selling because, in his own words, “it's time to get my affairs in order.” We talk about Hammer's lifelong love of watches, Panerai and the Paneristi forum, as a maritime accident that resulted in a spinal cord injury and the first of many doctors asking, ‘are your affairs in order'. Nearly 20 years later, Hammer has lived an incredible second life, a life in which watches — and the watch community — played a central role. Hammer talks about what watches mean for him, and the connections he's made based on these fascinating machines. In 2019, he had another accident, and doctors once again started to ask if his affairs were in order. For Hammer, a large part of his life's affairs are his watches, and with this sale, he can say that yes, they are.  Before chatting to Hammer, we talk to Mike Pearson, Zodiac's International Director of Brand Development, about the brand's history, and how they're interpreting it today This episode is sponsored by Zodiac. Find out about their watches here, or if you're in Australia check them out online and in person at Time+Tide. Cartier Curious? Join our Discord. Show Notes: https://www.otpodcast.com.au/show-notes Robbie Williams Netflix trailer  Hammer on Instagram  Hammer Time! The Collection of Alan Bloore  Sotheby's New York Important Watches — 7 December  Sotheby's New York Fine Watches - 12 December  How to follow us: Instagram: @ot.podcast Facebook: @OTPODCASTAU Follow hosts: @fkscholz + @andygreenlive on Instagram. Send us an email: otthepodcast@gmail.com If you liked our podcast - please remember to like/share and subscribe.

Episode 7 of CP7! Join the guys at London's swanky Londoner Hotel in the heart of buzzing Leicester Square, as they take you on a whistle stop tour of the UK's hottest independent watch show, WatchPro Salon 2023.Find out which brands surprised and impressed them most with their latest offerings and limited editions.Hear from independent brands such as Sinn, Bianchet and Cyrus plus many, many more including Zodiac Watches with Mike Pearson. Discover who brought an in-house tourbillon dive watch to the table with the show's most unusual complication. Hear the boys' top picks and how some brands inadvertently caught their eyes.How well did Gerald Charles fare when they got the CP7 treatment? Were Out Of Order watches really out of order? Plus why does everyone think Squale are Italian?To find out the answers to these horological conundrums and more join in the non-stop CP7 fun at WatchPro Salon 2023.Pictures and Show Notes are on our Instagram so give us a follow at @chrono_passion_7Find out more about WatchPro Salon at:https://events.itppromedia.com/WatchProSalon2023Check out Molequin straps at:https://molequin.com/Don't forget to check out the show notes on Instagram for a visual experience:@chrono_passion_7

This week we have a friend returning to tell us tales of new releases, firm favorites and what is happening in the world of Zodiac (and automatic Fossil) watches! Full... The post Scottish Watches Podcast #513 : The Zodiac Show 2023 With Mike Pearson appeared first on Scottish Watches.

UF HOFer, 3x All-American, and former Jacksonville Jag Mike Pearson tells stories of the Ole Ball Coach, getting "powdered", coming back from a skull fracture, and builds the Ultimate "Sexy" Dog at O-Line!

On this episode of the Podcast we have Andy Kahle of Therapy on Wheels and Mike Pearson of Beat the Heat WA on . They discuss the "Race for a Cause" where they will both be racing at the Perth Motorplex on the 28th of October 2023. Each will be raising money for their respective Charities, the Breast Cancer Care WA and Careflight organisations. Make sure you tune into this episode as we learn a bit more about Beat the Heat WA and Therapy on Wheels.

Tuesday's AOA kicked off with a look a the volatile commodity markets with Jim McCormick of AgMarket.net. In segment 2, Kam Quarles, CEO of the National Potato Council discussed his recent efforts on Capitol Hill for the Specialty Crop Farm Bill Alliance. Tuesday was Mike Pearson's final show as host, so in segment 3, he spoke with farm broadcaster Jesse Allen, who will taking over the host role on Monday, July 31st. Lance Knudson, owner of the American Ag Network and AOA joined the show in segment 4 and he and Mike discussed what makes AOA unique and why he's optimistic for the future of the program. For the remainder of this week, Hall of Fame Broadcaster (and AOA creator) Mike Adams will be hosting the show. Thanks for listening!

Once again, I site down with my good friend Mike Pearson of Zodiac Watch Co. We discuss Zodiac's recent releases and exciting innovations. Additionally, we get a personal update from Mike. Zodiac's Website: https://www.zodiacwatches.com/en-us/  Zodiac's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zodiacwatches/ Mike's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikepearson6/  If you or someone you know wants to be on the show or if you have any questions or feedback please contact me at: https://www.instagram.com/ricoswatchespodcast/ or e-mail: ricoswatchespodcast@gmail.com      Thank you!        Eric

Tuesday's AOA began with a look at the markets from Darin Newsom, Senior Analyst at Barchart who's watching for a bottom in the new crop corn market. In segment 2, Dennis Smith of Archer Financial Services spent time digesting Friday's Cattle on Feed report from USDA. Mike Pearson reviewed several news of importance to agriculture in segment 3, and the show closed with Jesse Allen, Farm and Ranch Director for the American Ag Network discussing the future of equipment sales with Curt Blades of AEM.

On Friday's AOA, Jesse Allen sat in for Mike Pearson to round out the week. In Segment One, we talk about the markets, the big downturn this week, basis and more with Kristi Van Ahn-Kjeseth of Van Ahn & Company. In Segment Two, the market discussion expands as we look at the bigger picture and discuss the global outlook along with farm input costs. Stephen Nicholson, Global Sector Strategist for Grains & Oilseeds at Rabobank joins the show. In Segment Three, we learn about Tyson Foods' Climate Smart Beef Program with Dr. Justin Ransom, Sr. Director, Sustainable Food Strategy at Tyson Foods and Chad Martin, VP of Cattle Procurement at Tyson Fresh Meats. And finally in Segment Four, we talk about alfalfa production and management with Curtis Rainbolt, Technical Service Rep, BASF Agricultural Solutions.    

On this special episode of Around the Table with CHS; we are talking sustainability and more live on the floor of the 2023 Commodity Classic in Orlando, FL. Host of Agriculture of America, Mike Pearson, is joined by: -Will Stafford, Washington Representative with the CHS Government Affairs Team -Megan Rock, Chief Sustainability Officer with CHS -Greg Horstmeier, Editor-in-Chief at DTN -Jesse Allen, Farm and Ranch Director for the American Ag Network and host of Market Talk

On this special episode of Around the Table with CHS; we are talking sustainability and more live on the floor of the 2023 Commodity Classic in Orlando, FL. Host of Agriculture of America, Mike Pearson, is joined by: -Will Stafford, Washington Representative with the CHS Government Affairs Team -Megan Rock, Chief Sustainability Officer with CHS -Greg Horstmeier, Editor-in-Chief at DTN -Jesse Allen, Farm and Ranch Director for the American Ag Network and host of Market Talk

In this Episode, Bren & Jay sit down with none other than the man behind the traction that Zodiac Watches has received. Michael Pearson! They sit down and reflect on the year that had passed since Mike took over and put them in the right trajectory. A year is alot of time and in that time, they've done even more. From what was successful, what was maybe not so much and what the future has for them, we talk about it all. And off-course I promise you won't be able to help but laugh along side. Thanks again to Mike for taking the time to come to Austin, hang out with the WIS.512 Group and even shoot a Podcast right before he has to go to a Taylor Swift concert.

If you're want fast-talking, no-nonsense, honest-to-goodness advice on how to be a watch sales dynamo, listen to this electrifying interview with one of watchmaking's most memorable characters. Mike Pearson of Zodiac is here for your ears, and it's long overdue.Follow the hosts on Instagram @robnudds and @alonbenjosephThanks to @skillymusic for the theme tune.

Ahead of Commodity Classic 2023, Mike Pearson sits down with Earth Optics CEO Lars Dyrud to learn more about their company and what they are doing to help farmers and ranchers. Learn more online at https://www.earthoptics.com.

On this month's episode of The Monthly Grind, Mike Pearson was on location at the Cattle Industry Convention and NCBA Trade Show in New Orleans, LA with our friends from the National Corn Growers Association. Harold Wolle, NCGA Vice President kicked off the show with a reminder of why NCGA and NCBA have partnered so much on education. Next, Troy Schneider, Market Development Action Team chair and Colorado corn grower told about his experience in Europe for the Collaboration Platform on Ag. And we closed with Dean Meyer, Chair of the USMEF with a look ahead to beef exports in 2023.

Tuesday's AOA began with a new voice on the cattle market - Chris Winward, Vice President at Swift Trading Company discussed how the technical picture has changed with new contract highs in the Live Cattle markets. For segment 2, Bryce Mongeon, Director of Legislative Affairs at OOIDA provided an update on the battle against California's AB5, which outlawed most truckers from working as independent contractors. Joshua Baethge, Policy editor with Farm Progress had an update on several bills working in DC, plus a look at how EPA might crack down on CAFOs. Be sure to tune in tomorrow to AOA for February's Monthly Grind episode from the NCBA CattleCon in New Orleans! Mike Pearson

Wednesday's AOA began with a look at Tuesday's action in the corn market with Garrett Toay, of Ag Trader Talk, and he looked ahead to winter demand for feeder cattle. Taxes took the focus in segment 2, as Jared Walczak, VP of State Projects at the Tax Foundation, outlined the coordinated push by 7 states to put in to place a new wealth tax. Brian Milne, Refined Products Editor at DTN, joined the show in segment 3 with insights on the oil market. Mike Pearson

Welcome to the Scottish Watches Podcast – Episode 425! Click here to read along and see the photos in our show notes as you listen – http://www.scottishwatches.co.uk/category/podcast/ The post Scottish Watches Podcast #425 : Zodiac Watches Part 2 With Mike Pearson appeared first on Scottish Watches.

This was one of my favorite episodes ever.Bethany McLean was the first reporter to question Enron's earnings, and she has written some of the best finance books out there. We discuss:* The astounding similarities between Enron & FTX,* How visionaries are just frauds who succeed (and which category describes Elon Musk),* What caused 2008, and whether we are headed for a new crisis,* Why there's too many venture capitalists and not enough short sellers,* And why history keeps repeating itself.McLean is a contributing editor at Vanity Fair (see her articles here) and the author of The Smartest Guys in the Room, All the Devils Are Here, Saudi America, and Shaky Ground.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform.Follow McLean on Twitter. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please share. Helps out a ton.Timestamps(0:04:37) - Is Fraud Over? (0:11:22) - Shortage of Shortsellers(0:19:03) - Elon Musk - Fraud or Visionary?(0:23:00) - Intelligence, Fake Deals, & Culture(0:33:40) - Rewarding Leaders for Long Term Thinking(0:37:00) - FTX Mafia?(0:40:17) - Is Finance Too Big?(0:44:09) - 2008 Collapse, Fannie & Freddie(0:49:25) - The Big Picture(1:00:12) - Frackers Vindicated?(1:03:40) - Rating Agencies(1:07:05) - Lawyers Getting Rich Off Fraud(1:15:09) - Are Some People Fundamentally Deceptive?(1:19:25) - Advice for Big Picture ThinkersTranscriptThis transcript was autogenerated and thus may contain errors.Dwarkesh Patel: the rapid implosion of a company worth tens of billions of dollars. Insider dealing and romantic entanglements between sister companies, a politically generous c e o, who is well connected in Washington, the use of a company's own stock as its collateral, the attempt, the short-lived attempt to get bought out by a previous competitor, and the fraudulent abuse of mark to market account.[00:01:00] We are not talking about ftx, we are talking about Enron, which my guest today, Bethany McClean, uh, first broke the story of and has written an amazing and detailed book about, uh, called The Smartest Guys in the Room. And she has also written, uh, a book about the housing crisis. All the devils are here, a book about Fannie and Freddy Shaky Ground, and a book about fracking Saudi America, all of which we'll get into.She's, in my opinion, the best finance nonfiction writer out there, and I'm really, really excited to have this conversation now. So, Bethany, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Bethany McLean: Thank you so much for the, for the probably Undeserved Conference, for having me on the show. Dwarkesh Patel: My first question, what are the odds that Sbf read the smartest guys in the room and just followed it as a playbook, given the similarities there?Bethany McLean: You, you know, I, I love that idea. I have to, I have to admit, I guess I love that idea. I don't know. That would make me responsible for what, for what happened, . So maybe I don't love that idea. L let me take that back . [00:02:00] Anyway, but I, I, I actually think that, that, that even if he had read the book, it would never have occurred to him that, that there was a similarity because self-delusion is such a, Strong component of all of these stories of business gone wrong.It's very rare that you have one of the characters at the heart of this who actually understands what they're doing and understands that they're moving over into the dark side and thinks about the potential repercussions of this and chooses this path. Anyway, that's usually not the way these stories go.So it's entirely possible that Sbf studied Enron, knew all about it, and never envisioned that there were any similarities between that and what he was doing. Dwarkesh Patel: Oh, that's a fascinating, um, which I guess raises the question of what are we doing when we're documenting and trying to learn from books like yours?If somebody who is a, about to commit the same exact kind of thing can read that book and not realize that he's doing the same exact thing, is there something that just [00:03:00] prevents us from learning the lessons of history that we, we can never just, uh, get the analogy right, and we're just guided by our own delusions.Bethany McLean: Wasn't there a great quote that history rhymes, but it doesn't repeat. I'm Yeah. Relying on who it is who said that, but I think that's, that's absolutely true. Oh, I think it's important for all of us, those of us who are not gonna find ourselves at the center of, uh, giant fraud or, so, I hope, I think my time for that has passed.Maybe not you, but, um, I think it's important for all of us to understand what went wrong. And I, I do think these, I do think just there, there's a great value and greater understanding of the world without necessarily a practical payoff for it. So I think when something goes wrong on a massive societal level, it's really important to try to, to try to explain it.Human beings have needed narrative since the dawn of time, and we need narrative all, all, all the more now we need, we need to make sense of the world. So I like to believe. Process of making, trying to make sense of the world. , um, [00:04:00] has a value in, in and of itself. Maybe there is small, some small deterrence aspect to it in that I often think that if people understand more the process by which things go go wrong, that it isn't deliberate, that it's not bad people setting out to do bad things.It's human beings, um, at first convincing themselves even that they're doing the right thing and then ending up in a situation that they, they never meant to be in. And maybe on the margin that does, maybe on the margin that does, that does help because maybe it has deterred some people who, who would've started down that path, but for the fact that they now see that that's the, that's the usual path.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. That actually raises the next question I wanted to ask you. Bern Hobart, uh, he's a finance writer as well. He wrote a blog post, um, about, uh, I mean this was before FTX obviously, and he was talking about Enron and he said in the end, it actually looks like we fixed the precise problem. Enron represented.Nobody I know solely looks at gap [00:05:00] financials. Everybody ultimately models based on free cash flow, we're much more averse to companies that set up a deliberate conflict of interest between management and shareholders. And I guess there's a way in which you can read that and say, oh, it doesn't FTX prove I'm wrong.But, you know, there's another way you can look at it is that FTX deliberately set up outside the us. So there's a story to be told that actually we learned the lessons of Enron and, you know, uh, so remains obviously worked. Uh, that's why, you know, they were in The Bahamas and we haven't seen the scale fraud of that scale in, you know, the continental United States.Um, do, do you think that the FTX saga and I guess the absence of other frauds of that scale in America shows that. The regulations and this changed business and investment practices in the aftermath of Enron have actually. Bethany McLean: Well, I think they've probably worked in narrowly, written in, in the way in which the writer you quoted articulated, I think it would be very hard for the cfo, F O of a publicly traded company to set up other private [00:06:00] equity firms that he ran, that did all their business with his company.Because everybody would say That's Enron and it would be completely. On the nose. And so, and Sarbanes Oxley in the sense of, in the sense of helping to reign in corporate fraud of the sort that was practiced by Enron, which was this abuse of very specific accounting rules. Um, I think I, I, I think that worked.But you know, you say there hasn't been fraud on a scale like Enron up until perhaps f ftx, but you're forgetting the global financial crisis. Yeah. And then the end, the line between what happened at Enron. and, and what happened in the global financial crisis. It's not a matter of black and white. It's not a matter of, one thing was clear cut fraud and one thing great.We love these practices. Isn't this fantastic? This is the way we want business to operate. They're both somewhere in the murky middle. You know, a lot of what happened at Enron wasn't actually outright fraud. I've coined this phrase, legal fraud to describe, um, to describe what it is that, that, that, that happened at Enron.And a lot of what [00:07:00] happened in the global financial crisis was legal, hence the lack of prosecutions. But it's also not behavior that that leads to a healthy market or mm-hmm. , for that matter, a a a a healthy society. And so there's a reason that you had Sarbanes Oxley and what was it, eight short, short years later you had Dodd-Frank and so Riri broadly.I'm not sure Sarbanes actually did that much good. And what I mean by that is when President George Bush signed it into law in the Rose Garden, he gave this speech about how investors were now protected and everything was great and your, your ordinary investors could take comfort that the laws were meant to protect them from wrongdoing.And you compare that to the speech that President Barack Obama gave eight years later when he signed Don Frank into law in the Rose Garden. And it's remarkably similar that now ordinary investors can count on the rules and regulations keeping themself from people who are prey on their financial wellbeing.[00:08:00] And I don't think it was, it's, it's true in either case because our markets, particularly modern markets move and evolve so quickly that the thing that's coming out of left field to get you is never gonna be the thing you are protecting against. Mm. . Dwarkesh Patel: , but given the fact that Enron, as you say, was committing legal fraud, is it possible that the government, um, when they prosecuted skilling and Fastow and lay, they in fact, We're not, uh, they, they prosecuted them to a greater extent than the law as written at the time would have warranted.In other words, were, uh, was there something legally invalid in the, in this, in the quantity of sentence that they got? Is it possible? Bethany McLean: So that's a really, it, it's, it's a, I I get what you're asking. I think it's a really tricky question because I think in absolute terms, um, Enron needed to be prosecuted and needed to be prosecuted aggressively.And while I say it was legal fraud, that is for the most part, there was actually real fraud around, around, uh, but it's on the margin. It doesn't [00:09:00] entire, it doesn't explain the entirety of Enron's collapse. Much of what they did was using and abusing the accounting rules in order to create an appearance of economic reality.Nothing to do with actual, with actual reality. But then there was actual fraud in the sense that Andy Fasta was stealing money from these partnerships to benefit himself. And they were, if you believe, the core tenant of the prosecution, which was their, this agreement called Global Galactic that was signed by, that was between Andy fau and Jeff Skilling, where Jeff agreed that Andy's partnerships would never lose money.Then that invalidated all of the, all of the accounting, and that's the chief reason that that. That skilling was, was, was convicted, um, was that the jury believed the existence of this, of this, of this agreement that in, um, one set of insider stock sales, which, which we can talk about, which was also a really key moment relative to the, so in absolute terms, I don't know, it's, it's hard for me to, to say there was [00:10:00] such, Enron was such a, to a degree that is still surprising to me, such a, a watershed moment in our, in our country, far beyond business itself.it, it, it caused so much insecurity that about our retirements, our retirement assets safe. Can you trust the company where you work? That I think the government did, did have to prosecute aggressively, but relative to the financial crisis where a lot of people made off with a lot of money and never had to give any of it back, does it seem fair that, that, that Jeff Skilling went to jail for over a decade and no one involved in a major way in the financial crisis paid any price whatsoever?People didn't even really have to give up that much of the money they made then. Then it seems a little bit unfair. Yes, so I think it's, it's an absolute versus a relative Dwarkesh Patel: question. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, who do you think made more money? Um, the investment banks, uh, like, uh, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, um, from doing, [00:11:00] providing their services to Enron as the stock was going up, or Jim Chanos from shorting the stock?In absolute terms, who made more money? Bethany McLean: Oh, I think the investment banks for sure. I mean, they made, they made so much money in investment banking fees from, from, from Enron. But, you know, it's a good question. . , it's a good question actually, because I think Jim made a lot of money too, so, Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you've spoken about, I guess the usefulness and the shortage of short sellers des a sort of, uh, corrective on irrational exuberance.And I'm curious why you think that shortage exists in the first place. Like, if you believe in the efficient market hypothesis, you should think that, you know, if some company has terrible financials and implausible numbers, then people would be lining up to short it. And then you would never have a phenomenon like Enron.And so it's, it's, you know, it's so odd that you can. , you know, reporters who are basically ahead of the market in terms of predicting what's gonna happen. Uh, well, uh, how do you square that with like the efficient [00:12:00] market hypothesis? Well, do you Bethany McLean: believe in the efficient market hypothesis, ? Dwarkesh Patel: I, I, I'd like to, but I'm like trying to , trying to wrap my head around Enron.Bethany McLean: I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure how you. Can, unless you, unless you adopt Warren Buffett's point of view, and I'm gonna mangle the quote because, uh, but, but it's that the market in the short term is a voting machine in the long term. It's a weighing machine, right? Mm-hmm. , or is it the other way around? . Anyway, but the idea is that the market may be very efficient for a long, very inefficient, for a long period of time.But, but it does actually, rationality does actually work in, in, in the end. And I think I might believe that, but isn't it John Maynard Cas who said the market can remain irrational for a lot longer than you can remain solvent. And so I think that's true too. I think believing that the market is efficient and rational in the short term is just obviously wrongUm, but back to your question about short sellers, which is, which is interesting, you know, I think part of it is that there is still this, um, there certainly was a couple of [00:13:00] decades ago, and I think it still exists, this idea that. Owning stocks is Mom, American, and apple pie in shorting stocks somehow is bad and evil and rooting, rooting against America.And I remember going back to the Enron days, someone, people criticizing me, even other people in the press saying, but you took a tip from a short seller. They're biased. And I. , I would say. But, but, but wait, the analysts who have buy ratings on stocks and the portfolio managers who own those stocks, they're biased too.They want the stocks to go up. Everybody's biased. So the trick as a journalist is getting information from all sides and figuring out who you think is right and what makes sense. But it's not avoiding anybody with any bias. But it was really interesting that people saw the bias on the part of short sellers and did not see it on the part of, of, of Longs.And I think there is that preconception that exists broadly, that somehow you are doing something wrong and you're somehow rooting for a company's failure. And that this is, I don't know, anti-American if you, if, if you [00:14:00] short a stock. And so I think that's part of why there's, there's, there's a shortage of shortage of, of, of short sellers.Um, I think also, I mean, we've had. Incredible, unprecedented bull market for the last four decades as a result of falling interest rates, and especially in the decade before the pandemic hit, it was very, very difficult to make money shorting anything because everything went to the moon. Didn't matter if its numbers were good, if it was eventually unmasked to be somewhat fraudulent, , it stocks just went to the moon anyway.The riskier the better. And so it is only diehard short sellers that have managed to stick it out . Yeah, and I think, I think lastly, Jim Chano said this to me once, and I, I think it's true that he could find, dozens of people who were skilled enough to come, smart enough to come work for him.There's no shortage of that. People who are technically skilled and really smart, but being able to be contrarian for a long period of time, especially when the market is going against you, is a different sort [00:15:00] of person. It that it requires a completely different mindset to have everybody in the world saying, you're wrong to be losing money because the stock is continuing to go up and to be able to hold fast to your conviction.And I think that's another, uh, part of the explanation for why there are fewer short sellers. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah, and that raised an interesting question about. Uh, venture capital, for example, where, or private markets in general? Um, at least in the public markets, there's shorting maybe in shortage, but it, it is a possible mechanism, whereas, uh, I'm a programmer.So, you know, if, if like a one guy thinks the company's worth a hundred million dollars and everybody else thinks it's not, you know, the company will still be, uh, the price will still be said by the, you know, the person who's a believer. Um, does that increase the risk of some sort of bubble in venture capital and in technology?Um, and I guess in private markets generally, if they're, they're not public, is that something you worry about that they're, they will be incredible bubbles built up if there's a lot of money that's floating around in these Bethany McLean: circles. . Well, I think we're seeing that now, [00:16:00] right? And I don't think it's a coincidence that FTX and Theranos were not publicly traded companies, right?Mm-hmm. . Um, there's a certain sort of, uh, black box quality to these companies because people aren't charting them and aren't, aren't, and aren't, you know, whispering to journalists about that. That there's something wrong here and there aren't publicly available financials for people to dig through and look, look, and look at the numbers.So now I don't think that's a coincidence. And I do think this gigantic move into private assets has been, um, probably not great for the, for the, for the, for the. for the, for the safety of the system. And you'd say, well, it's just institutional investors who can afford to lose money who are losing money.But it's really not because institutional investors are just pension fund money. Mm-hmm. and in some cases now mutual fund money. So that distinction that the people who are investing in this stuff can afford to lose it is not really true. Um, so I don't, I don't like that rationalization. I think we're gonna see how that plays out.There was [00:17:00] just a really good piece in the Economist about private equity marks on their portfolio companies and how they are still looked to be much higher than what you would think they should be given the carnage in the market. And so all of what, what actually things are really worth in private markets, both for venture capital firms and for private equity firms, Is absent another, another bubble starting, starting in the markets.I think we're gonna see how that plays out over, over the next year. And it might be a wake up call for, for a lot of people. Um, you know, all that, all that said, it's an interesting thing because investors have been very complicit in this, right? In the sense that a lot of investors are absolutely delighted to have prep, to have their, their private, um, their private investments marked at a high level.They don't have to go to the committee overseeing the investments and say, look, I lost 20% of your money the way they might, um, if, if the numbers were public. And so that the ability of these of private investors to smooth as they call it, the, the, the returns is, is it's [00:18:00] been, it's been part of the appeal.It hasn't been a negative, it's been a positive. And so I would say that investors who wanted this moving are. Art might be getting what they deserve except for the pointing made earlier that it isn't, it isn't their money. It's, it's the money of, of teachers and firefighters and individual investors a around the country, and that's, that's problematic.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Being in the world of technology and being around people in it has. made me, somewhat shocked when I read about these numbers from the past. For example, when I'm reading your books and they're detailing things that happened in the nineties or the two thousands, and then you realize that the salary that Hank Paulson made a c e o of Goldman, or that skilling made as, you know, um, c e o of Enron, you know, I, it's like I have friends who are my age, like 22 year olds who are raising seed rounds, , that are as big as like these people's salaries.And so it just feels like the, these books were, you have $50 billion frauds or, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of collapse and the individuals there, um, it just feels like they, it's missing a few zeros, uh, [00:19:00] because of the delusion of the private markets. But, um, but speaking of short sellers and speaking of private equity, um, I think it'd be interesting to talk about sbf.So, you know, your 2018 Vanity Fair article I thought was really interesting about, you know, sbf factory in Buffalo H How, how do you think back on Tesla and sbf now, given the fact that. The stock did continue to rise afterwards, and the factory, I believe, was completed and it's, I hired the 1500 or so people that had promised New York State, uh, is sbf just a fraud?Who can pull it off? And so he's a visionary. How, how do you think about sbf in the aftermath? Bethany McLean: So I don't think that's right about Buffalo and I have to look, but I don't think they ended up, I mean, the Solar City business that Tesla has pretty much collapsed. I don't think people haven't gotten their roofs.There was just a piece about how they're canceling some of their roof installations. So sbf has repeatedly made grand visions about that business that haven't played out. And I will check this for you post the podcast, but I don't think [00:20:00] if there is employment at that factory in, in Buffalo, it's not because they're churn out solar, solar, solar products that are, that are, that are doing.What was originally promised. So I guess I, I think about that story in a, in a couple of ways. It definitely, um, it was not meant to be a piece about Tesla. It was meant to be a piece that shown a little bit of light on how sbf operates and his willingness to flout the rules and his reliance on government subsidies, despite the fact that he, um, presents himself as this libertarian free, free, free market free marketeer, and his willingness to lie to, to, to, on some level enrich himself, which also runs counter to the Elon sbf narrative that he doesn't care about making money for, for himself.Because the main reason for Teslas to by Solar City was that Solar City had the main reason, was it Tes, that was, that Solar City had, that, that sbf and his, and his and his relatives had extended the these loans to Solar City that were gonna go. [00:21:00] There were gonna be lo all the money was gonna be lost at Solar City when bankrupt.And by having Tesla buy it, sbf was able to bail himself out, um, as, as as well. And I also think a good reason for the, for the, for, and it brings us to the present time, but a reason for the acquisition was that sbf knows that this image of himself as the invincible and vulnerable who can always raise money and whose companies always work out in the end, was really important.And if Solar City had gone bankrupt, it would've cast a big question mark over over sbf, over over the sbf narrative. And so I think he literally couldn't afford to let Solar City go bankrupt. Um, all of that said, I have, I have been, and was I, I was quite skeptical of Tesla and I thought about it in, in, in, in.And I always believed that the product was great. I just, mm-hmm. wasn't sure about the company's money making potential. And I think that, that, it's something I started thinking about, um, background, the Solar City time, maybe earlier, but this line, something I've talked about [00:22:00] before. But this line between a visionary and a fraudster.You know, you think that they're on two opposite ends of the spectrum, but in reality they're where the ends of the circle meet. Characteristics of one. One has that many of the characteristics of the other. And sometimes I think the only thing that really separates the two is that the fraudster is able to keep getting mo raising money in order to get through the really difficult time where he or she isn't telling the truth.And then they, that person goes down in history as a visionary. Um, but because no one ever looks back to the moment in time when they were lying, the fraudster gets caught in the middle. Um, so Enron's Lo lost access to to the capital markets lost AC access to funding as the market collapsed after the.com boom.And people began to wonder whether skilling was telling the truth about Enron's broadband business. And then there were all the disclosures about Andy fasa partnerships if Enron had been able to continue raising money, Business of Enron's called Enron Broadband might well have been Netflix. It was Netflix ahead of its time.So Enron just got caught in the middle and all [00:23:00] the fraud, all the fraud got exposed . Um, but that's not because Jeff Skilling wasn't a visionary who had really grand plans for, for, for, for the future. So I think sbf falls somewhere in that spectrum of, of, of fraudster and visionary. And what's gonna be really interesting why I said that this, we bring it to the present time about what happens to the mu narrative.If something fails is what happens. Yeah. Is as the world watch watches Twitter implode, um, what does that mean then for the Elon sbf narrative overall? Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Um, going back to the Smartest Guys is the Room, the title obviously suggests something about. The, I guess in general, the ability and the likelihood of very smart people committing fraud or things of that sort.Um, but you know, Begar Jones has this book called Hi Mind, where he talks about how the smarter people are more likely to cooperate in prisoners dilemma type situations. They have longer time preference. And one of the things you've written about is the problem in corporate America is people having shorter, [00:24:00] um, uh, you know, doing two too big time discounting.So, uh, given that trend we see in general of greater Cooperativeness, um, and other kinds of traits of more intelligent people, do you think the reason we often find people like S B F and skilling running big frauds just by being very intelligent, is it just that on, on average smarter people, maybe less likely to commit fraud, but when they do commit fraud, they do it at such garat scales and they're able to do it at such gar scales that it just brings down entire empires?How, how, how do you think about the relationship between intelligence and fraud? . Bethany McLean: That's interesting. Um, I'm not sure I know a coherent answer to that. Um, smartest guys in the room as a title was a little bit tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to say, these guys actually are the smartest guys in the room. It was, it, it was a little bit, it was a little bit ironic, but that doesn't take away from the really good question that you asked, which is what, what, what is that relationship?I, I mean, I think if you look at the history of corporate fraud, you are not going to find unintelligent people having [00:25:00] been the masterminds behind this. You're gonna find really, really, really smart, even brilliant people having, having, having been, been behind it, maybe some at part of that is this linkage between the visionary and the fraud star that so many of these, of these corporate frauds are people who have qualities of the visionary and to.The qualities of, of a visionary, you have to have a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty high intelligence. Um, and I do think so many of these stories are, are about then self delusion. So I don't think smart people are any less likely to suffer from self delusion than dumb people. And they're probably more likely to, because you can rationalize, you know, the smart person's ability to rationalize just about anything they wanna rational rationalize is pretty profound.Whereas perhaps someone who doesn't have quite the same, the same brain power isn't gonna be able to create a narrative under which their actions are blameless and they're doing the right thing. So I think sometimes, so maybe there is some sort of relationship [00:26:00] there that somebody more qualified than I am would have to study between smart people's ability to, to, to rationalize just about anything as a way of, as part of the path to self delusion and part of the path by which these things happen.Yeah, that's completely, that's completely , that's Bethany theory. There's absolutely nothing to back that . I'm just Dwarkesh Patel: well clear. Let's do some more speculation. So, um, one of the things, uh, John Ray talked about in his testimony, um, was it two days ago where he said that, you know, FTX had done $5 billion of investments and deals in the last year, and most of those investments were worth a fraction of the value that FTX paid for them.And we see this also in, obviously in Enron, right? With, uh, broadband and with, um, ul, or is that how pronounce it, but basically their international department. Yeah. Um, what is this, uh, this obsession with deal making for its own sake? Is that to appease investors and make them think a lot's going on, is that because of [00:27:00] the hubris of the founder, of just wanting to set up a big empire as fast as possible, even if you're getting a bad sticker price?What, why do we see this pattern of just, you know, excessive deal making for its own sake? Bethany McLean: That's an interesting question too. I'm not sure that that's, um, limited to companies that go splat dramatically. There's a lot of, a lot of deal making in, in corporate America has that same frenzied quality. Um, I haven't seen an updated study on, on this in a, in a long time, but, you know, I began my career working as an analyst in an m and a department at at at Goldman Sachs.And. Definitely deals are done for the sake of doing deals. And I once joked that synergies are kind of like UFOs. A lot of people claim to have seen them, but there's no proof that they actually exist. , and again, I haven't seen an updated study on, on, on this, but there was one years back that showed that most m and a transactions don't result in increased value for shareholders.And most synergies, most promised synergies never materialize. [00:28:00] Just getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger and doing deals for the short term value of showing Wall Street a projection. That earnings are gonna be so much higher even after the cost of the debt that you've taken on. And that they're these great synergies that are gonna come about from, from combining businesses.So I don't know that either the frenzy deal doing or deal doing deals gone wrong is, um, solely limited to people who are committing fraud. , I think it's kinda across the spectrum. , . Dwarkesh Patel: Um, um, well one, one thing I find interesting about your books is how you detail that. And correct me if this is the wrong way to read them, but that, uh, incentives are not the only thing that matter.You know, there there's this perception that, you know, we've set up bad incentives for these actors and that's why they did bad things. But also, um, the power of one individual to shape a co co company's culture and the power of that culture to enable bad behavior, whether scaling at Enron or with Clarkson Right at Moody's.Yeah. Um, is that a good, good way of reading your books or how, how do you think [00:29:00] about the relative importance of culture and incentive? Bethany McLean: I think that's really fair. But incentives are part of culture, right? If, if you've set up a culture where, where how you're valued is what you get paid, I think it's a little, it's a little difficult to separate those two things out because, because the, the incentives do help make the culture, but for sure culture is incredibly, um, incredibly compelling.I've often thought and said that if I had, when I was leaving my short lived career in investment banking, if I had, if I had gotten in some of the head hunters I was talking to, if one of them had said, there's this great, really energetic, interesting energy company down in Houston, , why don't interview there?If I had gone there, would I have been a whistleblower or would I have been a believer? And I'd like to believe I would've been a whistleblower, but I think it's equally likely that I would've been a believer. Culture is so strong. It creates this. What's maybe a miasma that you can't see outside?I remember a guy I talked to who's a trader at Enron, really smart guy, and he [00:30:00] was like, after the, after the bankruptcy, he said, of course, if we're all getting paid based on creating reported earnings and there's all this cash going out the door in order to do these deals that are creating reported earnings, and that's the culture of the entire firm, of course it's not gonna work economically.He said, I never thought about it. . It just didn't, it didn't, it didn't occur to me. And I think the more compelling the CEO o the more likely you are to have that kind of mass delusion. I mean, there's a reason cult exist, right? . We, we are as human beings, remarkably susceptible to.Visionary leaders. It's just, it's the way the human brain is wired. We, we wanna believe, and especially if somebody has the ability to put a vision forward, like Jeff Gilling did at Enron, like Elizabeth Holmes did it Theranos like SPF F did, where you feel like you are in the service of something greater by helping this, vision, , actualize then, then you're, particularly susceptible.And I think that is the place where [00:31:00] incentives don't quite explain things. That is, there is this very human desire to matter, to do something important. Mm-hmm to be doing something that's gonna change the world. And when somebody can tap into that desire in people that feeling that what you're doing isn't just work in a paycheck and the incentives you have, but I mean, I guess it is part of the incentive, but that you're part of some greater good.That's incredibly powerful. Yeah. Dwarkesh Patel: It's what we all speaking of. We all wanna matter. . Yeah. Speaking of peoples psychology, uh, crime and punishment, underrated or overrated as a way to analyze the psychology of people like scaling and S B F or maybe SBF specifically because of the utilitarian nature of SB F'S crime?Um, Bethany McLean: I think it's, I think it's underrated, overrated. I'm not sure anybody. , I'm not sure anybody has ever proven that jail sentences for white collar criminals do anything to deter subsequent white collar crime. Mm-hmm. , and I think one part of this is the self delusion that I've, that I talked about. Nobody thinks, [00:32:00] oh, I'm doing the same thing as Jeff Skilling did at Enron, and if I, and if I do this, then I too might end up in jail.Therefore, I don't wanna do this. I just don't think that's the way the, the, the, the, the thought process works. I think Elizabeth Holmes at Theranos, probably for the most part, convinced herself that this was going to work, and that if you just push forward and push hard enough and keep telling people what they wanna hear and keep being able to raise money, it's gonna work.You know, if. . If, if you pause to think, well, what if it doesn't work and I've lied and I go to jail, then, then you'd stop right, right then and there. So I think that, I think that, that I'm, I'm not, I'm not sure it's much of a deterrent. I remember, and partly I'm, I'm biased because I remember a piece, my co-author Peter Alkin, and I wrote out right after Jess Gilling and Kenley were, were convicted and can lay, we're we're convicted.And we wrote a piece for Fortune in which we said that the entire world has changed. Now that corporate executives are, um, are, are put on high alert that behavior in the gray area will no longer be tolerated and that it will be aggressively prosecuted. And this was spring of [00:33:00] 2006 and the events that caused the global financial crisis were pretty well underway.It didn't. Do much to prevent the global financial crisis. Mm-hmm. , Enron's, Enron's jail time, didn't do anything to present, prevent, Elizabeth Holmes doesn't seem to have done anything to change what Sbf was doing. So I just, I, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure, I'm sure a psychologist or somebody who specializes in studying white color crime could probably make a argument that refutes everything I said and that shows that has had a deterring effect.But I just, I just don't think that people who get themselves into this situation, con, con, consciously think, this is what I'm doing. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of other incentives, stock options, uh, you've spoken about how that creates short-term incentives for the executives who are making decisions. If you wanted to set up an instrument that aligned an executive or a leader's compensation with the long-term performance of a company, what would that look like?W would you have the options of less than 10 years instead of a [00:34:00] year? H how would you design it? How do you usually design a compensation scheme to award long-term thinking? Bethany McLean: If I could do that, I should ru rule the world . I think that very sweet. I think that is one of the really tough, um, problems confronting boards or anybody who is determining anybody who's determining stock options and that almost anybody who's determining compensation and that most compensation schemes seem to have really terrible unintended consequences.They look really good on paper. And then as they're implemented, it turns out that there was a way in which they accomplished exactly the opposite of, uh, thing the people who designing them wanted, wanted them to accomplish. I mean, if you think back to the advent of stock options, what could sound better?Right. Giving management a share of the company such that if, if, if shareholders did well, that they'd do well, nobody envisioned the ways in which stock options could be repriced. The ways in which meeting earnings targets could lead to gaming the ways in which the incentive of stock-based [00:35:00] compensation could lead to people trying to get anything they could in order to get the stock price higher and cash out when they're, as soon as their stock options vested.So, and even there was, there was, the whole valiant saga was fascinating on this front because the people who designed Mike Pearson's compensation package as ceo e o Valiant, they were convinced that this was absolutely the way to do it. And he got bigger and bigger, um, stock option incentives for hitting certain, for having the stock achieve certain levels.But of course, that creates this incredible bias to just get the stock to go up no matter, no matter what else you do. Um, it does seem to me that vesting over the long term is. is, is a much better way to go about things. But then do you create incentives for people to play games in order to get the stock lower at, at various points where there's about to be a stock optional board so they have a better chance of having directions be, be worth, be worth something over the long term.And do you, particularly on Wall Street there is this, or in firms where this sort of stuff matters the most? There [00:36:00] is this, there was this clearing out of dead wood that happened where people got paid and they got outta the way and made way for younger people. And I don't know, it was a harsh culture, but maybe it made sense on some level.And now at least I've been told with much longer vesting periods, you have people who don't wanna let go. And so you have more of a problem with people who should have retired, stick sticking around instead of in, in, instead of clearing out. And then it also becomes a question, How much money is, is enough.So if somebody is getting millions of dollars in short-term compensation and then they have a whole bunch more money tied up in long-term compensation, do the long-term numbers matter? At what point do they, do they, do they really matter? I mean, if you gave me $5 million today, I'm not so sure I'd really care if I were getting another $5 million in 10 years.Right. ? Yeah. So, so I think all of that is, is it, it's, I'm not, I'm not sure there's a perfect compensation system. All things considered though, I think longer term is, is probably better, [00:37:00] but. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah, I didn't think about that downside of the long investing period. That's so interesting there. I guess there is no free lunch.Uh, so with Enron, um, it, it was clear that there was a lot of talent at the firm and that you had these companies and these trading firms launch at the aftermath by people who left Enron, kinder Morgan and John Arnold's, um, uh, Sintas, uh, that were wildly profitable and did well. Do you think we'll see the same thing with FTX, that while Sbf himself and maybe the, his close cadre were frauds, there actually was a lot of great trading and engineering talent there that are gonna start these very successful firms in the aftermath.Bethany McLean: That's, that's interesting. And just, just for the sake of clarification, kinder Morgan was actually started years before Enron's collapsed, when Rich Kinder, who was vying with Jeffs skilling in a sense, to become Chief Operating Officer. Um, Ken Lay, picked Jeffs skilling and Kinder left. Mm-hmm. and took a few assets and went to create Kinder, kinder Morgan.But your overall point, I'm just clarifying your overall point holds, there were a lot of people who [00:38:00] left Enron and went on to do, to have pretty, pretty remarkable careers. I think the answer with ftx, I bet there will be some for sure. But whether they will be in the crypto space, I guess depends on your views on the long-term viability of, of, of the crypto space.And I have never , it's funny is crypto exploded over the last couple of years. I was, I've been working on this book about the pandemic and it's been busy and difficult enough that I have not lifted my head to, to think about much else. And I always thought, I don't get it. I don't understand , I mean, I understand the whole argument about the blockchain being valuable for lots of transactions and I, I get that, but I never understood crypto itself and I thought, well, I just need to, as soon as this book is done, I just need to put a month into understanding this because it's obviously an important, important enough part of our world that I need to figure it out.So now I think, oh, Okay, maybe I didn't understand it for a reason and maybe, um, maybe there isn't anything to understand and I've just saved myself a whole life of crime because it's all gone. And you have [00:39:00] people like Larry Fink at BlackRock saying, whole industry is gonna implode. It's done. And certainly with the news today, this morning of finances auditor basically saying We're out.Um, I, I don't, I don't know how much of it was, how much of it was, is, was a Ponzi scheme. You might know better than I do. And so I don't know what's left after this whole thing implodes. It's a little bit like, there is an analogy here that when Enron imploded, yes, a lot of people went on to start other successful businesses, but the whole energy trading business is practiced by kind of under capitalized, um, um, energy firms went away and that never came back.Yeah. And so I, I, I don't, I don't know, I'm, it'll be, I, I don't know. What do you. The Dwarkesh Patel: time to be worried will be when Bethany McLean writes an article titled Is Bitcoin Overvalued for the Audience. My Moments on That ? Yeah, for the audience that, that was, I believe the first skeptical article about Enron's, um, stock price.Yeah. Uh, and it was titled [00:40:00] Is Enron Overvalued. In aftermath understated, , title. But , Bethany McLean: , I joked that that story should have won, won, won awards for the NICU title and business journalism history. , given that the company was bankrupt six months later was overpricedDwarkesh Patel: Um, uh, well, let me ask a bigger question about finance in general. So finance is 9% of gdp, I believe. How much of that is the productive use and thinking and allocation of the, uh, the capital towards their most productive ends? And how much of that is just zero sum or negative sum games? Um, if, if you had to break that down, like, is 9% too high, do you think, or is it just.I think it's Bethany McLean: too high. I have no idea how to think about breaking it down to what the proper level should be. But I think there are other ways to think about how you can see that in past decades it hasn't been at the right level when you've had all sorts of smart kids. Um, Leaving, leaving business school and leaving college and heading into [00:41:00] finance and hedge funds and private equity is their career of choice.I think that's a sign that that finance is too big when it's sucking up too much of, of, of the talent of the country. Um, and when the rewards for doing it are so disproportionate relative to the rewards of of, of doing other things. Um, the counter to that is that there've also been a lot of rewards for starting businesses.And that's probably, I think, how you want it to be in a, in a product. In a productive economy. So I think the number is, is too high. I don't know how to think about what it should be other than what a, actually, a former Goldman Sachs partner said this to me when I was working on all the devils are here, and she said that finance is supposed to be like the, the substrata of our world.It's supposed to be the thing that enables other things to happen. It's not supposed to be the world itself. So the, the role of a financial system is to enable businesses to get started, to provide capital. That's what it's supposed to be. It's the lubricant that enables business, but it's not supposed to be the thing itself.Right. And it's become the thing itself. [00:42:00] You've, you've, you've, you've, you've got a problem. Um, um, and I think the other, Dwarkesh Patel: there's your article about crypto , that paragraph right there. . Bethany McLean: There you go. That's, that's a good, um, and I think, I think the other way, you, you, you can see, and perhaps this is way too simplistic, but the other way I've thought about it is that how can it be if you can run a hedge fund and make billions of dollars from, and have five people, 10 people, whatever it is, versus starting a company that employs people mm-hmm.and changes a neighborhood and provides jobs and, you know, provides a product that, that, that, that, that improves people's lives. It, it is a shame that too much of the talent and such a huge share of the financial rewards are going to the former rather than the latter. And that just can't mean good things for the future.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, when people criticize technology, for example, for the idea that, you know, these people who would've been, I don't know, otherwise teachers or something, they're, you know, making half a million dollars at Google. [00:43:00] Um, and I think like when I was in India, people were using Google Maps to get through the streets in Mumbai, which is, which is unimaginable to me before going there that, you know, you would be able to do that with, um, a service built out of Silicon Valley.And so, Yeah, I think that actually is a good allocation of capital and talent. I, I'm not, I'm not sure about finance. Um, yeah, Bethany McLean: I think I, I, I agree with you. I think there are other problems with Google and with the, the social media giants, but, but they are real businesses that employ people, that make products that have had, uh, huge.Um, impact on on, on people's, on people's lives. So in, in that sense, it's very different than a private equity firm, for instance, and especially private equity, even more so than hedge funds draws my ire. Mm-hmm. , because I think one of the reasons they, that it, they've been able to make part of the financialization of our economy has been due to super, super low interest rates and low interest rates that have enabled so many people to make so much money in finance are not, they're just a gift.It wasn't because these people were uniquely smart, they just [00:44:00] found themselves in a great moment in time. And the fact that they now think they're really smart because money makes me crazy. Dwarkesh Patel: Um, are Fanny and Freddy America special purpose entities? Are they our Alameda? It's just the way we hide our debt and uh, that's interesting.Yeah. Bethany McLean: Well, I guess we, you know what? I don't know anymore because, so I last wrote about them when was it in 2016 and I don't know now. No, you're right. Their, their debt is still off, off, off balance sheet. So Yeah, in a lot of ways they, they were. . I would argue though that the old Fanny and Freddy were structured more honestly than, than the new Fanny and Freddy, that it really is conservatorship that have made them, um, that have made them America's off balance sheet entities, because at least when they were their own independent entities.Yes, there was this odd thing known as the implicit guarantee, which is when you think about, back to your point about efficient markets, how can you possibly believe there's an as such a thing as an efficient market when their [00:45:00] Fanny and Freddy had an implicit guarantee, meaning it wasn't real. There was no place where it was written down that the US government would bail Fanny and Freddie out in a crisis, and everybody denied that it existed and yet it did exist.Yeah. Dwarkesh Patel: No, but we, I feel like that confirms the official market hypothesis, right? The, the market correctly, they thought that mortgages backed by Fannie and Freddy would have governments. Uh, okay, okay. You might be father Bethany McLean: and they did . You might be right. I, I, I think what I was getting at you, you might be right.I think what I was getting at is that it is such a screwed up concept. I mean, how can you possibly, when I first, when people were first explaining this to me, when I first read about Fanny and Freddie, I was like, no, no, wait. This is American capitalism . This is, no, wait. What? I don't, I don't understand . Um, um, so yeah, but I, I, I, I think that Fanny and Freddie, at least with shareholders that were forced to bear some level of, of the risks were actually a more honest way of going about this whole screwed up American way of financing mortgages than, than the current setup is.Dwarkesh Patel: What [00:46:00] is the future of these firms? Or are they just gonna say in conservatorship forever? Or is there any developments there? Well, what's gonna happen to them? Bethany McLean: The lawsuit, the latest lawsuit that could have answered that in some ways ended in a mistrial. Um, I don't think, I don't, I don't think unfortunately anybody in government sees any currency in, and I mean, currency in the broad sense, not in the literal sense of money in, in taking this on.And unfortunately, what someone once said to me about it, I think remains true and it's really depressing, but is that various lawmakers get interested in Fannie and Freddy. They engage with it only to figure out it's really, really goddamn complicated. Mm-hmm. and that, and that any kind of solution is gonna involve angering people on one side of the aisle or another and potentially angering their constituent constituents.And they slowly back away, um, from doing anything that could, that, that could affect change. So I think we have a really unhealthy situation. I don't think it's great for these two [00:47:00] entities to be in conservatorship, but at this point, I'm not sure it's gonna change. Dwarkesh Patel: Yep. Speaking of debt and mortgages, um, so total household debt in the United States has been, uh, climbing recently after it's, it's like slightly d decline after 2008, but I think in quarter three alone it increased 350 billion and now it's at 16.5 trillion.Uh, the total US household debt, should we worried about this? Are, are, are we gonna see another sort of collapse because of this? Or what, what should we think about this? Bethany McLean: I don't know. I don't know how to think about that because it's too tied up in other things that no one knows. Are we going to have a recession?How severe is the recession going to be? What is the max unemployment rate that we're gonna hit if we do, if we do have a recession? And all of those things dictate how to, how to think about that number. I. Think consumer debt is embedded in the bowels of the financial system in the same way mortgages were.And in the end, the, the, the [00:48:00] problem with the financial crisis of 2008, it wasn't the losses on the mortgages themselves. It was the way in which they were embedded in the plumbing of the financial system. Mm-hmm. and ways that nobody understood. And then the resulting loss of confidence from the fact that nobody had understood that slash lies had been told about, about that.And that's what caused, that's what caused everything to, to collapse. Consumer debt is a little more visible and seeable and I, I don't think that it has that same, um, that same opaque quality to it that, that mortgage backed securities did. I could be, I could be wrong. I haven't, I haven't, I haven't dug into it enough, enough to understand enough to understand that.But you can see the delinquencies starting to climb. Um, I mean, I guess you could on, on, on mortgages as well, but there was this, there was this profound belief with mortgages that since home prices would never decline, there would never be losses on these instruments because you could always sell the underlying property for more than you had [00:49:00] paid for it, and therefore everything would be fine.And that's what led to a lot of the bad practices in the industry is that lenders didn't think they had to care if they were screwing the home buyer because they always thought they could take the home back and, and, and, and, and make more money on it. And consumer debt is, is unsecured. And so it's, it's, it's different.I think people think about it differently, but I'd have. I'd have to, I'd have to do some more homework to understand where consumer debt sits in the overall architecture of the financial industry. Dwarkesh Patel: I, I, I'm really glad you brought up this theme about what does the overall big picture look like? I feel like this is the theme of all your books that people will be, So obsessed with their subsection of their job or, or that ar area that they won't notice that, um, broader trends like the ones you're talking about.And in Enron it's like, why, why, why do we have all these special purpose entities? What is the total debt load of Enron? Um, or with the, you know, mortgage back securities a similar kind of thing, right? What, what, uh, maybe they weren't correlated in the past, [00:50:00] but what's that? Do we really think that there's really no correlation, um, uh, between, uh, delinquencies across the country?Um, so that, that kind of big picture, think. Whose job is that today? Is it journalists? Is it short sellers? Is it people writing on ck? Who's doing that? Is it anybody's job? Is, is it just like, uh, an important role with nobody assigned to it? Bethany McLean: I think it's the latter. I think it's an important role with nobody, with nobody assigned to it, and there there is a limit.I mean, , I hate to say this, it is not, uh, um, it is not an accident that many of my books have been written. That's probably not fair. It's not true of my book un fracking, but that some of my books have been written after the calamity happened. So they weren't so much foretelling the calamity as they were unpacking the calamity after it happened, which is a different role.And as I said at the start of our conversation, I think an important one to explain to people why this big, bad thing took, took place. But it's not prediction, I don't know, as people that were very good at, at prediction, um, they tried [00:51:00] to set up, what was it called? In the wake of the global financial crisis, they established this thing called fsoc, and now I'm forgetting what the acronym stands for.Financial Security Oversight Committee. And it's supposed to be this, this body that does think about these big picture. That thinks about the ways, the ways an exam, for example, in which mortgage backed securities were, um, were, were, were, were, were, were, were repopulating through the entire financial system and ways that would be cause a loss to be much more than a loss.That it wouldn't just be the loss of money and that security, it would echo and magnify. And so that there are people who are supposed to be thinking about it. But I think, I think it's, it's, it's really hard to see that and. In increasingly complex world, it's even, it's even harder than it was before, because the reverberations from things are really hard to map out in, in, in advance, and especially when some part of those reverberations are a loss of confidence, then all bets [00:52:00] are off because when confidence cracks, lots of things fall apart.But how do you possibly analyze in any quantitative way the the risk that that confidence will collapse? Mm-hmm. . So I think it's, I think, I think, I think it's difficult. That said, and of course I am talking my own book here, I don't think that the lack of the, the increased financial problems of journalism really help matters in that respect, because in an ideal world, you want a lot of people out there writing and thinking about various pieces of this, and then maybe somebody can come along and see the.Pieces and say, oh my God, there's this big picture thing here that we all need to be thinking about. But there's, there's a kind of serendipity in the ability to do that one, that one that the chances, I guess the best way to say that is the chances of that serendipity are dramatically increased by having a lot of people out there doing homework, um, on the various pieces of the puzzle.And so I think in a world, particularly where local news has been decimated mm-hmm. , um, the [00:53:00] chances of that sort of serendipity are, are definitely lower. And people may think, oh, it doesn't matter. We still got national news. We've got the Washington Post, we've got the Wall Street Journal, we've got the New York Times.Um, I would love to have somebody do a piece of analysis and go back through the New York Times stories and see how many were sparked by lp, a piece in the local paper that maybe you wouldn't even notice from reading the New York Times piece, because it'd be in like the sixth paragraph that, oh yeah, credit should go to this person at this local paper who started writing about this.But if you no longer have the person at the local paper who started writing about this, You know, it's, it's, it's, it's less likely that the big national piece gets written. And I think that's a part of the implosion of local news, that people, a part of the cost of the implosion of local news that people don't really understand the idea that the national press functions at, at the same level, um, without local news is just not true.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. And, but even if you have the local news, and I, that's a really important point, but even if you have that local news, there still has to be somebody whose job it is to synthesize it all together. And [00:54:00] I'm curious, what is the training that requires? So you, I mean, your training is, you know, math and English major and then working at working in investment banking.Um, is that the, uh, I mean, obviously the anecdotal experience then equals one, seems that that's great training for synthesizing all these pieces together. But what is the right sort of education for somebody who is thinking about the big picture? Bethany McLean: I, I don't, I don't know.And there may be, there may be, there are probably multiple answers to that question, right? There's probably no one, one right answer for me. In, in the end. My, my math major has proven to be pivotal. Even though , my mother dug up these, um, my, my parents were moving and so my mother was going through all her stuff and she dug up these, some my math work from, from college.Literally, if it weren't for the fact that I recognized my own handwriting, I would not recognize these pages on pages of math formula and proofs. And they're like, get gibberish to me now. So , but I, but I still think that math has, so I do not wanna exaggerate my mathematical ability at this stage of [00:55:00] the game.It's basically no. But I do think that doing math proofs any kind of formal, any kind of training and logic is really, really important because the more you've been formally trained in logic, the more you realize when there are piece is missing and when something isn't quite, isn't quite adding on, it just forces you to think in, in a way that is, that in a way that connects the dots.Um, because you know, if you're moving from A to B and B doesn't follow a, you, you understand that B doesn't follow a And I think that that, that, that kind of training is, is really, really important. It's what's given. , whatever kind of backbone I have as a journalist is not because I like to create controversy and like to make people mad.I actually don't. It's just because something doesn't make sense to me. And so maybe it doesn't make sense to me because I'm not getting it, or it doesn't make sense to me because B doesn't actually follow, follow away, and you're just being told that it does. And so I think that, I think that training is, is really, really important.Um, I also have, have often thought [00:56:00] that another part of training is realizing that basic rule that you learned in kindergarten, which is, um, you know, believe your imagination or you know, your imagine follow your imagination. Because the truth is anything can happen. And I think if you look at business history over the last couple of decades, it will be the improbable becoming probable.Truth over and over and over again. I mean, the idea that Enron could implode one of the biggest, supposedly most successful companies in corporate America could be bankrupt within six months. The, from its year, from its stock price high. The idea that the biggest, most successful, um, financial institutions on wall, on Wall Street could all be crumbling into bankruptcy without the aid of the US government.The idea that a young woman with no college degree and no real experience in engineering could create, uh, uh, um, could create a machine that was going to revolutionize blood testing and land on the cover of every business magazine, and that this [00:57:00] whole thing could turn out to be pretty much a fraud. The entire idea of ftx, I mean, over and over again, these things have happened.Forget Bernie Madoff if you had told people a year ago that FTX was gonna implode six months ago, three months ago, people would've been like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And so I think just that, that, that, that knowledge that the improbable happens over and over again is also a really fundamental, fundamentally important.Dwarkesh Patel: If we're con continuing on the theme of ftx, I, I interviewed him about four or five months ago.Wow. And this is one of these interviews that I'm really, I'm, I don't know if embarrass is the right word, but I knew things then that I could have like asked, poked harder about. But it's also the kind of thing where you look back in retrospect and you're. If it had turned out well, it's, it's not obvious what the red flags are.Um, while you're in the moment, there's things you can look back at the story of Facebook and how, you know, Marcus Zuckerberg acted in the early days of Facebook and you could say, if the thing fell apart, that this is why, or, you know, this is a red flag. So [00:58:00] I have a hard time thinking about how I should have done that interview.B

This week's episode is a long time coming. Spence, Spangler, and Buzz have the opportunity to chat with Mike Pearson from Zodiac watches. We talk about the brand's direction, the heritage of the Zodiac name, and some hints at what is to come.It is refreshing to hear the overall direction for Zodiac, under the stewardship of the Fossil Group, from Mike. Stewardship is the correct term for the relationship. Zodiac is a brand with 140 years of history, a history that is being showcased by the new ownership. Some of the stories that Mike relates to us speak volumes to the direction the brand is heading, and we are very excited to see what comes next!Cheers!

Thanks so much for listening! For the complete show notes, links, and comments, please visit The Grey NATO Show Notes for this episode: https://thegreynato.substack.com/p/203pearsonstandardh