Meet Father Rivers

In this pilot episode of Meet Father Rivers, host Emily talks to Dr. Cecilia Moore, Associate Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Dayton, about how and why she arranged for Emily to meet Fr. Clarence Joseph Rivers, and why Rivers remains an obscure yet important figure in American Catholic history.

In this episode, Emily describes her first contact with Fr. Clarence Rivers, interviews her mom, Gabrielle Strand, about their experience of one of Fr. Rivers' liturgies, and documents the notes she took on her first phone call with Fr. Clarence.

In Episode 3, Emily tells the story of Fr. Rivers' early career and the efforts toward liturgical inculturation that eventually brought him fame. She talks to Dr. Jessie Thomas who was a child at St. Joseph school in Cincinnati when Fr. Rivers was a young priest in the late 1950s. Emily recounts an early incident of liturgical disobedience by Fr. Rivers, effectively protesting the exclusion of Black forms of music in Catholic worship. News and show contact information is shared. For Ep. 3 show notes, click here.

Host Emily Strand recounts Fr. Rivers' death and remembers her reactions. She interviews Deacon Royce Winters, Pastoral Administrator at Church of the Resurrection in Cincinnati, Ohio and Director of the Office of African American Pastoral Ministries for the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, a personal friend of Fr. Rivers. They visit Fr. Rivers' gravesite at Gate of Heaven Catholic cemetery in Cincinnati. Lastly Emily reads the letter Fr. Rivers wrote to her, and shares podcast news and contact information. Click here for Episode 4 show notes.

Host Emily Strand turns the podcast in a new direction: to find and speak to others whose lives Fr. Rivers touched and with whom she feels a unique kind of Christian fellowship. She interviews Eric T. Styles, a liturgist, writer and Notre Dame Rector who also befriended and was mentored by Fr. Clarence at the end of his life. Together they recall the deep and lasting effects Rivers had on their young lives and discuss how they will team up to continue pursuing Fr. Rivers' story on Meet Father Rivers. Warning: this episode contains Star Trek references.

In this episode, co-hosts Emily Strand and Eric Styles interview Bishop Fernand Cheri, auxiliary Bishop of New Orleans, Louisiana, archivist of Black Sacred Song and long-time personal friend of Fr. Clarence Rivers. Bishops shares his memories of traveling to Africa with Fr. Rivers and the liturgical insights Fr. Rivers helped instill in him. Then Emily and Eric introduce a new team member, Johnathon Kelso, and share an audio recording they made of an excerpt of one of Fr. Rivers' songs in the very space it was first recorded in 1963: the Oratory at Grailville.

Emily and Eric interview pianist, pastoral musician, liturgist, workshop presenter and composer Mr. Ronald (Rawn) Harbor. Rawn met Fr. Rivers in 1973 and became his primary accompanist and eventually a liturgist in his own right under Fr. Clarence's careful mentorship. Rawn discusses his own approaches to composition and even shares a recording of a psalm arrangement that he's particularly proud of: Psalm 63 “My Soul is Thirsting,” on this special, most musical episode of Meet Father Rivers to date. Click here for show notes.

In this episode, Eric and Emily continue their interview with liturgist, composer and pastoral musician Rawn Harbor, discussing Fr. Rivers as a composer who defied categorization, and the ongoing genesis of Black Catholic liturgy and liturgical music begun by Fr. Rivers. Click here for Episode 8 Show Notes. These include photos of the beautiful vestments referenced in the show.

In this episode, hosts Emily and Eric interview Dr. Mary McGann, RSCJ, who, in January of 2002, published an article in the journal Worship called “Timely Wisdom, Prophetic Challenge: Rediscovering Clarence R.J. Rivers' Vision of Effective Worship." In it, Mary gives a helpful summary of Fr. Rivers' liturgical vision and the innovative contributions he made in the field of liturgical theology. Mary tells Eric and Emily about how she first encountered Fr. Rivers' music and scholarly work and how she synthesized his deeply sacramental vision for effective worship for the benefit of modern academic liturgical studies. Download the show notes for Episode 9 here.

Emily and Eric detail how Fr. Clarence Rivers received, in 2002, the prestigious Berakah Award, an award given by the North American Academy of Liturgy (NAAL) to honor distinguished contributors to the field of professional liturgy. The hosts interview scholar of liturgy, musician and clinician Dr. Don E. Saliers, theologian-in-residence at Emory's Candler School of Theology, who composed the text of Fr. Rivers' Berakah Award, poetically and beautifully capturing Fr. Rivers' spirit and contributions to the liturgical life. The conversion broadens to include the profoundly ecumenical character of the 20th century liturgical movement and the ways in which Fr. Rivers' influence extends well beyond the Catholic tradition, helping Christians of many traditions re-imagine worship. Access the show notes from episode 10 by clicking this link.

Emily and Eric interview Wilton Cardinal Gregory, the seventh Archbishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington and the first African American Cardinal—ever!—in the Roman Catholic Church. Cardinal Gregory shares how he first encountered Fr. Rivers, what Rivers' work meant to him as a young seminarian, priest and Bishop, and how he continues to pray in thanksgiving for Fr. Rivers' work and witness. He explains how he came to possess one of Fr. Rivers' pectoral crosses and what it means to him. Hosts and esteemed guest discuss Fr. Rivers as just one of many African American “hidden figures” in the Catholic Church and how important it is to remember and acknowledge their gifts to the Church. Finally, Eric and Emily process the conversation with some follow-up thoughts and share feedback from two listeners. Episode photo by Peter Ringenberg/©University of Notre Dame. Click here for the Episode 11 Show Notes.

Emily and Eric interview Fr. Tom DiFolco, retired priest of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati who was mentored by Fr. Rivers, forming a friendship with Fr. Rivers as a fellow priest that greatly enhanced Fr. Tom's own priestly ministry. Fr. Tom has served the Black Catholic parishes of Cincinnati for 25 years, and he opens up about the joys and challenges of his ministry and—most especially—how he has been forever changed by the life and influence of Fr. Clarence Rivers. The conversation includes a discussion of the original Eucharistic prayers composed by Fr. Rivers, and a sizable audio clip of Fr. Clarence praying his “Anaphora of the Lion and Lamb” is included in this episode, with special thanks to Matt Fellerhoff. For show notes, click here.

As a newly-ordained priest, Fr. Rivers served as an English teacher, guidance counselor and drama coach at Purcell High School in Cincinnati in the late 1950s into the 1960s. There, he changed lives. Emily and Eric start their investigation of Fr. Rivers as high school teacher with Purcell teaching colleague, Fr. James Heft, SM. Fr. Jim was fresh out of college at the time of his encounter with Fr. Rivers, but went on to a distinguished career in the academy as an expert in Catholic secondary and higher education. Fr. Heft talks about the way Fr. Rivers set high standards for the English and drama curriculum at Purcell and the seamless way Rivers' teaching expressed his interests in drama and the human experience. Fr. Heft also discusses how Rivers—along with his personal encounters with the Black American writer James Baldwin—helped him understand the commonalities among all of humanity and what he calls the elasticity of Catholicism. Finally, Fr. Heft offers Emily and Eric some welcome encouragement in telling Fr. Rivers' story. For show notes, click here.

Emily and Eric continue their investigation of Fr. Rivers' career teaching high school English and drama at Purcell in Cincinnati. Fr. Rivers started a drama troupe at Purcell, an all-boys Catholic high school, called the Queen's Men. 1962 Purcell High School grad Dan Sack sits down with Emily and Eric to tell them about his first-hand experience of Fr. Rivers as a director, teacher and life-long friend. Surprisingly, he also shares how the troupe was broken apart when many of its members became troopers in the Vietnam War. Personal memories and US history intertwine in this not-to-be-missed episode of Meet Father Rivers. For this episode's show notes, click here.

Emily and Eric conclude their investigation of Fr. Rivers' career teaching high school English and drama at Purcell in Cincinnati. Former Queen's Man Kenneth Stevens shares his memories of Fr. Rivers as a teacher, director and inspiration for Ken's long and productive career in the arts. Ken describes Rivers' influence on his own career, contributing to his can-do attitude and his ability to look at situations without prejudice to create amazing results. Ken and the hosts talk about Rivers as a powerful mentor, and finally, Ken describes the scholarship he founded at Eastern Michigan University and why he named it after Fr. Clarence Rivers. For Show Notes for Episode 15, click here.

Fr. Joseph A. Brown, SJ is our guest on this episode: a Jesuit priest and professor of Africana studies and scholar of Black Catholicism and liturgy. Fr. Brown is a poet, an artist and was a friend and colleague of Fr. Rivers. He tells how he first heard Fr. Rivers' music and shares his belief that Fr. Rivers' scholarly works are an undiscovered gem of American Catholicism. Hosts and guest discuss how we must share Rivers' ideas and legacy in the digital age. Fr. Joseph teaches us about sankofa: a West African, cyclical concept of the cosmos which emphasizes a return to the past to bring forth present and future. He suggests with some urgency that we “do the sankofa thing” with the teachings of Fr. Rivers, to renew the Church and empower the people of God. For Episode 16 Show Notes, click here.

Eric and Emily interview celebrated Catholic liturgical music composer and liturgy scholar Fr. Jan Michael Joncas, who has penned such classics as “On Eagles' Wings” and “I Have Loved You” about Rivers as a composer. Fr. Mike shares two of his own compositions for liturgy in which one can hear Fr. Rivers' influence clearly (full songs included). The conversation situates Rivers as an American Catholic composer and highlights Fr. Rivers' historical significance, our changing times, and other composers who inspire Fr. Mike today (some of whom might surprise you). Fr. Mike offers a helpful, hopeful list of essential elements for composing mystagogical liturgical music in our modern age, Eric gives music recommendations and Emily fan-girls over Fr. Mike's music (but only a little). It's an episode that will interest musicians, composers, and anyone who loves good music. For Episode 17 show notes, click here.

Catholic composer and musician Ken Canedo discusses the influence of Fr. Rivers on his life and career in liturgy and music. Ken is the co-composer (with Bob Hurd) of the Gospel-styled song “Alleluia! Give the Glory”. Ken and the hosts talk about the advice Fr. Rivers gave Ken when he met him as a young composer and what elements of Fr. Rivers' compositions Ken still strives to incorporate today. Ken is also a chronicler of the story of contemporary music in the North American Catholic Church since Vatican II, and he has authored two books on that subject; guest and hosts dig into Fr. Rivers' place in that story. Ken's fascinating, enlightening ideas about Fr. Rivers, his music and his legacy are too much for one episode to hold! Look for part 2 of our interview in Episode 19. For the Episode 18 Show Notes, click here.

Emily and Eric continue their conversation with composer Ken Canedo by asking a tough question about whether Fr. Rivers got co-opted and left behind by the White folk movement in the American Catholic Church. Ken provides a thoughtful response that involves (of all things) Catholic missalettes and lack of accompaniment, and discussion turns to the ways Fr. Rivers may have unintentionally hindered access to his own works. We pose Ken our standard question about Fr. Rivers' obscurity, and Ken's answer is perhaps the most practical we've received: it's because his music has long been unavailable. There's more: enjoy this second part of our interview with composer Ken Canedo. For Episode 19 Show Notes, click here.

Happy Black Catholic History Month! In this brief but important episode, listeners get oriented to this celebratory month and receive a homework assignment for next episode. But don't fear—this is homework you'll want to do! The fine folks at Orbis Books have given us permission to share a chapter Fr. Rivers published in the 1998 scholarly collection, Taking Down Our Harps (ed. by Fr. Cyprian Davis, OSB and Diana L. Hayes) entitled “The Oral African Tradition Versus the Ocular Western Tradition.” This short, fascinating chapter will form the focus of discussion in our next episode. You can access that chapter as a free download (click here for link). Special thanks to Orbis Books. We also discuss what you can do to celebrate BCHM (book recs!), we share a passing of note—James E. Moore—and receive a musical gift from composer Christian Cosas. For the show notes for Episode 20, click here.

Emily and Eric welcome Black Catholic podcasters Nate Tinner-Williams and Lorna DesRoses to Meet Father Rivers to celebrate Black Catholic History Month (November) with the first-ever Rivers Reading Club. Participants discuss one of Fr. Rivers' most provocative and insightful pieces of writing: a chapter called “The Oral African Tradition Versus the Ocular Western Tradition.” The chapter is available as a free download, compliments of Orbis Books (see Show Notes for the link). We discuss Fr. Rivers' critique of the unexamined cultural forces that cause liturgy in North America to limp: the sight-biased and discursive tendencies of Western European-descended cultures. Hosts and guests share their thoughts on Rivers' ideas in our liturgical current context and discuss whether progress has been made since Rivers first published the piece. For Episode 21's Show Notes, click here.

Emily and Eric welcome Bro. Louis Canter, OEF, life-long Catholic liturgist, pastoral musician and composer, to the show to talk about an old box of music, slated for destruction, that he found at a pivotal time in his young career. The box was full of colorful music from a publisher called Stimuli, Inc., by a composer named Fr. Clarence Jos. Rivers. Louis tells us about how rescuing that box and playing through it in his free time set a trajectory for his life and career in ministry, helping him understand what it means for music to speak to your very soul. For the Show Notes for Episode 22, click here.

Emily and Eric examine a new book that contains two essays by Fr. Clarence Rivers: the Black Catholic Studies Reader: History and Theology, recently published by Catholic University of America Press. We speak with editor Fr. David Endres, a priest of Archdiocese of Cincinnati, seminary dean, and editor of US Catholic Historian. We also speak to one of the book's contributors, Dr. Cecilia Moore, associate professor of religious studies at University of Dayton. We talk about how the Reader came to be, what it aims to achieve, and how it forms a conversation between newer scholars and those foundational voices, like Fr. Rivers, who paved the way for Black Catholics in the United States. Emily and Eric get big ideas for future projects involving Fr. Rivers' writings, and Fr. David reflects on how Fr. Rivers is remembered among Cincinnati clergy. For Episode 23's Show Notes, click here.

Eric and Emily receive a unique and precious gift: a wedding video recording from 1994 in which Fr. Rivers leads his original Eucharistic Prayer, the Anaphora of the Lion and Lamb. Eric and Emily talk to the bride and groom, Pam and Matt Fellerhoff, about their experience and play audio clips from their memorable celebration. Eric and Emily discuss their reactions to this extraordinary find. For the Episode 24 Show Notes, click here.

Hosts Emily and Eric catch up after a break from podcasting, sharing the projects and events that kept them busy this summer, including travel to present on Fr. Rivers at the National Black Catholic Congress in the Washington, D.C. area. They introduce the second season of the show with a fascinating, 1968 article from National Catholic Reporter interviewing Fr. Rivers. Rivers' setting of the Creed is also shared and discussed. For show notes for Episode 25, click here.

Eric and Emily interview a key musical collaborator of Fr. Clarence Rivers: pianist, composer and arranger William Foster McDaniel. Billy recalls meeting Fr. Rivers in Paris in 1966, where both were pursuing graduate studies. He details how he later worked and traveled with Fr. Rivers for years as his pianist and arranger and shares a recording of a song he co-composed with Rivers called "Soul." Finally, Billy and the hosts discuss Fr. Rivers' legacy and the uniqueness of his contributions. For Episode 26 Show Notes, click here.

Eric and Emily explore a great accomplishment for Black Catholics in the US many years in the making: the Lead Me Guide Me hymnal, published by GIA Publications in 1987. After some background on the hymnal's development, hosts introduce Marjorie Gabriel-Burrow, who chaired the committee that brought the hymnal to birth. Marjorie, an internationally acclaimed musician and composer, has served the Catholic Church as a pastoral musician since the eighth grade and since 1992 at St. Augustine-St. Monica Parish in Detroit. Marjorie tells stories of a lifetime of making music in the Church as a Black Catholic, including meeting Fr. Rivers and long-time parish use of Rivers' Mass Dedicated to the Brotherhood of Man and the struggles and triumphs of putting together Lead Me Guide Me with collaborators Rawn Harbor and Leon C. Roberts. Hosts and guest discuss Fr. Rivers' decision not to allow the inclusion of much of his music in the hymnal. Marjorie shares her personal remembrances of Fr. Rivers. For Episode 27 Show Notes, click here.

Eric and Emily discuss an archival recording of a Christmas liturgy Fr. Rivers designed and presided over from 1972, then later published in his 1974 book Soulfull Worship. Emily and Eric discuss the recording, play clips, and compare and contrast worship practices from 1972 until now. Fr. Rivers' signature style is on full display in this special Christmas episode of Meet Father Rivers. For Episode 28 Show Notes, click here.

Eric and Emily and special guest Scott Patterson discuss a concert Fr. Rivers hosted on August 19, 1971, recorded live at the Detroit Institute of Arts auditorium and produced by the National Office of Black Catholics. The concert—and the week-long workshop that preceded it—were intended as “an act of freedom on the part of contemporary American Black Catholics” to make their “own impact on Catholic worship” (Joseph Davis, SM, from the album's back cover). The conversation focuses on clips of the concert while touching on Gospel music then and now, the importance of Protestant-Catholic collaborations in building a Black Catholic liturgical aesthetic, music ministry in Black Catholic pastoral settings and, of course, Fr. Rivers and his legacy. For Episode 29 Show Notes, click here.

We're still talking about that phenomenal recording of Fr. Rivers and the Hawkins Family in a new episode of MFR! And we talk about so much more as well. Bonus content from our interview with composer and former Church musician Scott Patterson, featured in Episode 29, forms the content of this episode of Meet Father Rivers. Eric tells us more about Afro House, the art collective our guest Scott (and Alisha Patterson) lead. Then Emily, Eric and Scott discuss music ministry, form in art (and when to break it), Earth, Wind & Fire as church music, liturgy as “folk art” and how to have church all week. We intersperse more music from the Hawkins Family concert with Fr. Rivers and close with reflections on the importance of leadership in liturgy. Enjoy this eclectic episode of Meet Father Rivers. For Episode 30 Show Notes, click here.

In this episode, we interview Michael and Martha DeFrancesco, a Cincinnati couple who enjoyed a life-long friendship with Fr. Rivers that can only be described as “found family.” Martha and Michael share personal memories and wonderful details about Fr. Rivers the man (rather than the legend). They also share a few treasures in the form of footage from interviews Michael conducted with Fr. Rivers in the last few years of his life, allowing us to post them to YouTube for everyone's enjoyment and edification. To Michael and Martha, we are eternally grateful. For Episode 31 Show Notes, click here.

In this episode, we discuss the first of the interviews Michael DeFrancesco conducted with Fr. Rivers in the last few years of Rivers' life, recently posted to YouTube. Emily and Eric listen to clips of the interview and discuss their broad-ranging implications for worship today. For Episode 32 Show Notes, click here.

In this episode, we discuss the second of Michael DeFrancesco's interviews with Fr. Rivers in the last few years of Rivers' life, recently posted to YouTube. Emily and Eric are joined by Fr. Tom DiFolco, retired priest of the Archdiocese of Cincinnati and fellow friend of Fr. Rivers. The three point out interesting features of the second DeFrancesco interview, especially his comments on the role of priest as a cultic function, discussing Rivers' insights and their broad-ranging implications for worship and the role of priests today. As a bonus, find out what the “DiFolco Death Stare” is in this engaging conversation on worship, inspired—as usual—by Fr. Rivers. For Episode 33 Show Notes, click here.

In this first episode of Season 3 of Meet Father Rivers, Emily and Eric discuss a recent scholarly publication about Father Rivers, an upcoming Symposium on Black Catholic liturgy and culture, and a new e-newsletter for friends of the podcast and anyone interested in Father Rivers Studies. For Episode 34 Show Notes, click here.

Emily and Eric introduce you to some new friends and collaborators: Dr. Darnell Allen St. Romain and Dr. Darrell Anthony St. Romain, twin brothers, recent doctoral degree recipients and Catholic church musicians who will together present a breakout presentation at “Seeking for a City,” the upcoming November Symposium at the University of Dayton on Black liturgy and culture. Their breakout will be titled “Soulful, Black and Catholic” and focuses on Black Catholic composers since 1964 and the ways in which they've enriched the Church. As is their way, Eric and Emily and their guests get into deep stuff about liturgy, ministry, race, history, the future of Black Catholic Church music, what it means to be a Church musician in the Black Catholic tradition and of course, Fr. Rivers. For Episode 35 Show Notes, click here.

It's a live episode of Meet Father Rivers! Eric and Emily have spent the last year or more helping Deacon Royce Winters (Office of African American Pastoral Ministries, Archdiocese of Cincinnati) organize an academic symposium on Black liturgy and culture to mark the 40th Anniversary of the Black Bishops' pastoral letter "What We Have Seen and Heard" and the 20th anniversary of Fr. Rivers' death. The symposium took place Nov. 22-24, 2024 at the University of Dayton. This live episode of MFR engages the attendees and speakers of the symposium, entitled "Seeking for a City," to sum up what we saw and heard during the 2-day event, and how we will move back into our lives of ministry and faith to implement the wisdom shared during this extraordinary event.

Enjoy a unique and innovative Christmas Eve service created by Fr. Rivers--and Emily and Eric's commentary on the historic recording--in this replay episode of Meet Father Rivers. Merry Christmas! (No show notes.)

Emily and Eric interview Bianca C. Farmer, an archivist-in-training at the Catholic University of America. As part of her coursework for her Master's in Library and Information Science, Bianca completed a 50-hour practicum in CUA's Special Collections, and she spent these hours with Father Rivers! She was responsible for the intake, organization and documentation of a new donated collection focused on Father Rivers. Emily and Eric find out what's in this new collection and who donated it; they also learn what a “finding aid” is and how it helps researchers access material history. Finally, Bianca tells us all how to access this new collection at CUA. For Episode 38 Show Notes, click here.

Eric and Emily interview author and speaker Daryl Grigsby, who with Dr. Cynthia Bailey Manns, presented at last November's Seeking for a City Symposium at the University of Dayton. Daryl's new book, Catholics for the Common Good: An Eternal Offering, highlights the lives of thirty-six Catholics whose lives exemplify the line of Eucharistic Prayer III that asks God to “make of us an eternal offering to you.” Eric, Emily and Daryl discuss his presentation at the Symposium (including the insights of Fr. Rivers) and his new book, which employs a very liturgical lens in examining the nature and character of great holiness. For Episode 39 Show Notes, click here.

Liturgeeks, unite! Eric and Emily are joined by Nick Wagner and Diana Macalintal, new friends from the November 2024 Symposium at University of Dayton, to geek out about good liturgy. The heart of the conversation dwells on Rivers' concept of effective worship and how liturgists in various cultural contexts can—and must—encourage communities to achieve worship that is both beautiful and that forms disciples bent on justice. Lots of smart talk in this episode about liturgy, liturgical anthropology, inculturation, liturgical flow, the rites of the OCIA (Order of Christian Initiation of Adults)... and of course Father Rivers. For Episode 40 Show Notes, click here.