Podcasts about petdesk

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Best podcasts about petdesk

Latest podcast episodes about petdesk

Tacos and Tech Podcast
This Week in San Diego Tech News - December 13, 2023

Tacos and Tech Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2023 12:28


Neal: Welcome everyone to the weekly San Diego Tech News by Neal Bloom and Fred Grier from Fresh Brewed Tech. I'm Neal Bloom from Fresh Brewed Tech, the Tacos and Tech Podcast, and Interlock Capital. Fred: I'm Fred Grier, journalist and author of SD Founders substack. I wrote about the tech industry for the San Diego Business Journal for two years. I covered the ins-and-outs of the startup world for much of that time, breaking news on IPOs, fundraising rounds, and M&A.   Promote the show:  Before we dive in, we wanted to ask our listeners and SD Tech fans to help us grow the show, leave a review and share with one other person who should be more plugged in with the SD Tech Scene. Thank you for the support and for helping us build the San Diego Startup Community.   12/13 News   Petdesk funding - $100m Harpoon Ventures - $125m Evofem acquisition - $100m Techstars San Diego by SDSU Demo Day  

WhiskerTalks: A Veterinary Podcast
Big Changes at WhiskerTalks and WhiskerCloud

WhiskerTalks: A Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 8, 2023 48:59


WhiskerCloud Founder Adam Greenbaum chats with Mary Schwartz, Manager of Sales Enablement at PetDesk, about her transition from veterinary medicine to tech. Plus, Mary is introduced as one of the new hosts of WhiskerTalks!

The Family Pet Podcast
Ep. 65 - My veterinarian has an app for that

The Family Pet Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 8, 2023 23:02


Ep. 65 - My veterinarian has an app for that.  – Show NotesAs we come to live more and more of our lives through our mobile phones, the veterinary industry has begun offering apps that allow pet owners to keep track of their pet's health records and stay connected to their veterinary providers. Using client engagement apps, pet parents can schedule appointments, submit prescription refill requests, confirm appointments, track vaccinations and more.Mary Schwartz is Senior Sales Enablement Manager with PetVisor. She brings her knowledge about client engagement apps and walks our listeners through the benefits of using the veterinary tools.Here are links to information we talked about today:Learn more about PetDesk at their website PetDesk.comWhy Has a Group of Orcas Suddenly Started Attacking Boats? from Scientific AmericanGot a question for Michael and Stephen? Run across something interesting you want to share with the show? Do you have a topic idea for a future episode? Send it to us at thefamilypetpodcast@gmail.com. 

Simple, Interrupted
Building Trust, Educating and Shifting the Veterinary Client Mindset to CareFirst with Dr. Lauren Smith and Ron Sosa

Simple, Interrupted

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 15, 2022 39:13


In episode 8 of PetDesk's podcast, Simple, Interrupted, we chat with our guests about the necessity of creating “CareFirst” clients and how to shape them into being “CareFirst” clients. We welcome Dr. Lauren Smith, DVM, founder of The Vetitude, which is dedicated to improving the relationships between veterinary professionals and their clients. Ron Sosa, CVBL, CCFP, is the current Executive Director for the Uncharted Veterinary Conference and shares his insights with over two decades of experience in the veterinary industry.  The client mindset can be shifted! By utilizing education and proactively building a foundation for trust, veterinary clients can become CareFirst clients.  Together, Dr. Smith and Ron cover ways to proactively insert yourself in the client's decision-making process and also how you and your team can help veterinary clinics enhance the client experience every visit. Subscribe to this podcast today so you never miss an episode, and share with your veterinary colleagues!

CS No BS
Owning the Moment, Trumps Owning the Customer with Shona Fenner, Sr. Customer Success Operations Manager

CS No BS

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 27, 2022 50:19


This episode of CS No BS features an interview with Shona Fenner, Sr. Customer Success Operations Manager at PetDesk. Designed with busy veterinary practices in mind, PetDesk streamlines client communication to keep staff happy, patients healthy, and practices profitable.With more than seven years at PetDesk in a number of roles, Shona has developed a breadth of knowledge across the company. Prior to PetDesk, she garnered wide-ranging expertise in fields such as video production and editing, sales and service, and customer satisfaction. In this episode, Shona discusses shifting from an account management model to customer success, the importance of staying curious, and the secret sauce behind the customer success paradox.  --------Guest Quote:“Immediately when moving from the everyone does everything account management model to customer success, whether it's giving someone like one article that's, you know, a thousand words to read or a giant 400 page book, no matter what it was, they could kind of get the idea pretty quickly when they realized that you still had all this ownership over the customer, but it was owning the moment more than owning the customer itself.” - Shona Fenner --------Timestamp Topics:*(04:36)  - Shona's journey into Customer Success *(08:20) - Shona's review of Farm Don't Hunt *(11:18) - Biggest hurdles in Customer Success*(16:36) - Maintaining healthy customers*(22:58) - What's next for CS Ops?*(27:44) - Competing with big box retailers *(35:53) - Visibility through Totango *(41:13) - Advice from Shona*(42:30) - Quick Hits *(46:03) - Biggest BS in CS --------Sponsor:This podcast was created by the team at Totango. Design and run best-in-class customer journeys with no-code, visual software that delivers immediate value, easy iteration and optimization, and predictable scale-up growth. Join over 5,000 customers from startups to fast-growing enterprises using the industry's only Composable Customer Success Platform. Start for free at Totango.com.--------Links:Connect with Jamie on LinkedInConnect with Shona on LinkedInTotango.com

Simple, Interrupted
Recruiting Quality Veterinary Talent and Keeping a Healthy Team with Andrew Luna and Rebecca Rose

Simple, Interrupted

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 22, 2022 48:50


Hiring the right veterinary talent is a unique challenge, and a common struggle for veterinary practices is not only finding an amazing candidate with the proper skills needed to put care first, but also someone who fits in with your team dynamics. If you own or manage a veterinary practice, you may have questioned how to attract qualified candidates while competing with other practices. How can a clinic show their value, mission, and purpose in the hiring process amidst the hiring crisis taking place in today's market?  In this episode, you'll hear from Andrew Luna, founder and CEO of Hound, as well as Rebecca Rose, Outreach Specialist for Lap of Love Veterinary Hospice. Along with your host, Mary Schwartz, they'll discuss practical solutions to set veterinary leaders up for long-term success and find your dream candidate. Also, in honor of Pet Insurance Month, we welcome special guest Melissa Gutierez of PetsBest Insurance to give some insight in how to talk to your clients about pet health insurance. Check out the PetDesk, in collaboration with Pets Best and CareCredit, The Cost of Pet Ownership and How to Prepare September 2022 Content Pack! Subscribe to this podcast today to never miss an episode, and share with your veterinary colleagues! 

Simple, Interrupted
Understanding a CareFirst Approach to Veterinary Medicine with David Liss and Sam Schopler

Simple, Interrupted

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 7, 2022 46:30


One of the biggest challenges the veterinary industry is facing is the commoditization of pet care due to the rise of big-box retailers offering veterinary health services. At PetDesk, we want to identify ways veterinary professionals can improve their best vet self by adopting an approach we like to call "CareFirst".  So often we see the local practitioner up against big chains like Walmart, Lowe's, or Petco for veterinary care. CareFirst is the mindset being adopted by veterinary professionals that embodies strategic steps independent clinics can take to guide their clients to better pet care.  In this episode, we talk with David Liss, an experienced veterinary management professional with a specialization in all aspects of veterinary hospital operations, and Sam Schopler, a veterinary student working towards his DVM. Together with host Mary Schwartz, CVT they discuss what CareFirst means to them and what tools the veterinary world needs in order to fight back against big-box retailers and commoditized veterinary care in this ever-changing industry.  For more information visit PetDesk.com/podcast and subscribe so you never miss an episode. 

Pathmonk Presents Podcast
How to Thrive in Growth Marketing in the Vet Industry | Interview with Kevin OLeary from PetDesk

Pathmonk Presents Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 3, 2022 14:02


We love to have unique businesses on the podcast and learn how growth leaders operate and strategize, and what could be better than a company that serves pets and those that care for them. PetDesk streamlines client communication to keep your staff happy, patients healthy, and practice profitable with their PetDesk Dashboard and Mobile App. Kevin OLeary, VP of DemandGen helps us to understand the industry and the threats they face as independently owned. In this unique marketplace, Kevin dives into his growth marketing efforts and his mission to help those independent clinics thrive.

The Capital Stack
Taylor Cavanah of PetDesk on the Challenger Sale and Defining Product-Market Fit.

The Capital Stack

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 19, 2022 57:25


Today, David is speaking with Taylor Cavanah. Taylor Cavanah founder and CEO of PetDesk.  PetDesk is engaging pet parents in their pet's health by building deeper relationships with their pet care providers. The company is the leading provider of client communication and is currently being used within 3,500 vet clinics and has over 3M app users.   Taylor began his technical career at Zyvex Corporation where he helped grow, spin off, and later sell the company. Between undergrad and grad school he worked for Sony America in a think tank tasked with forecasting products 10 years down the road.   What You'll Learn: Creating products from features  Definition of product-market fit  Problems with over-engineering products Going from product-market fit to go to market fit  Founder psychology Owning the vet ecosystem Favorite Quote: “When things get stressful - you tend to try to control the controllable.  When times get tough you will naturally fall into your comfort zone, and sometimes that is not the right thing to do.” --  The Capital Stack All Things Tech Investing and Value Creation Early growth investor David Paul interviews the world's greatest ecosystem, learns how to start and scale your own business, and finds an edge in today's capital markets.  To connect with David, visit:   Twitter -https://twitter.com/davidpaulvc ( CLICK HERE) Substack -http://davidpaul.substack.com/ ( CLICK HERE) LinkedIn -http://linkedin.com/in/Davidpaulvc ( CLICK HERE) IG -https://www.instagram.com/davidpaulvc/ ( CLICK HERE)   DISCLAIMER: David Paul is the founder and general partner at DWP Capital.  All opinions expressed by David and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of DWP capital.  This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for decisions. David and guests may maintain positions in the securities discussed on this podcast.

Go-to-Market Excellence
Solving Data Hygiene Issues, Ops Team Building, and Customer Journey Mapping (w/ Kelsey Cohen, Sr. Revenue Operations Manager @ PetDesk)

Go-to-Market Excellence

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 13, 2021 52:13 Transcription Available


Data hygiene is a common challenge in many startups. Most organizations aren't aware of the importance of establishing a single source of truth for the whole organization from the beginning. The truth is if you don't prioritize it at the outset, you end up playing catch up afterwards. In this episode, Kelsey Cohen, Senior Revenue Operations Manager at PetDesk, shares how she wrangled all the systems, data, and processes upon joining a new organization and built a team that could handle the ongoing work of maintaining data hygiene. We discuss: - GTM data hygiene challenges in an early stage startup - The relationship between marketing ops and RevOps - Transitioning from a one-person show to a RevOps leader - The benefits of investing in GTM data before scaling rapidly - Aligning customer journey mapping with content strategy Mentioned during the podcast: - Cracking the Sales Management Code by Jason Jordan with Michelle Vazzana Have an idea for a guest or show topic? Email me at dan@scaleMatters.com. Hear more go-to-market excellence by subscribing in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Listening on a desktop & can't see the links? Just search for Go-to-Market Excellence in your favorite podcast player.

Mella Moment
34. What's The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly of Pet Technology? - Sam Schopler

Mella Moment

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 30, 2021 19:07


Sam Schopler from PetDesk joins us to discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly of bringing technology into the pet industry for pets, pet parents, and vets alike. Sam says: “The shift that we're feeling now is a transition from a place where veterinarians were the sacred truth for pet health, to now needing to be more facilitators of information and the appropriate dispersal of that information to pet owners.” “The amount of information that we're compiling in terms of veterinary medicine is growing exponentially.” “The idea that we're [veterinarians] going to be the shepherds of every single piece of information is a concept that is fading quickly.” “We need to make sure that the pets are always at the focus of benefit for this new wave of technology and that the pet care providers are having an easy experience as well.”

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Aspiring Ops
Episode 9: The Unexpected Journey into Operations

Aspiring Ops

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 13, 2021 36:09


Kelsey Cohen is the Senior Revenue Operations Manager at PetDesk and former Chief of Staff at Bloomscape. As the third employee at Bloomscape, Kelsey played a foundational role in scaling the company to 150 employees and helping to raise over $24M in funding. On this episode of Aspiring Ops, Kelsey shares how her willingness to step through open doors and take on new opportunities led to her unlikely journey from graphic designer to operations leader at one of the fastest growing companies in the midwest.

Fierce and Free
What is Sales Triage and Why it Matters in the Era of Remote Work?

Fierce and Free

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 10, 2021 36:41


Meet my badass friend Shianne Sampson. Shianne is the current VP of Sales & Customer Service at venture-backed startup PetDesk. She has 20+ years of sales experience, sales leadership, B2B, SaaS, and has developed over 4000+ sales executives, and 60+ sales leaders. Her new book is out - Sales Triage. How did Shianne's teams go from panicked, to 100% remote overnight? How Shianne's teams embraced rapid change and if you haven't embraced these tools your team may be in need of an intervention! What leaders should look out for across their teams and how to keep your team motivated. Book preview on Sales Triage, buy, download, read and share. Tone, pace, professionalism, and how to develop a repeatable process. Check out MelaniGordon.com for more resources and to get in touch. We'd love to hear from you and learn what topics you'd like us to cover. See you next time.

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 073: How and When to Go Back to Normal

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 27, 2020 84:50


Uncharted listeners get a free month of PetDesk, plus telemedicine tools Two-Way Messaging and Video Chat included free for 3 months! Learn more at petdesk.com/uncharted. REGISTRATION FOR UVC ONLINE CONFERENCE IS OPEN!! Head over to www.unchartedvet.com and click CONFERENCES This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice management goddess Stephanie Goss discuss when it's time to move vet practices back toward normalcy and how to do it.

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 072: Does Your Practice Externship Suck?

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 20, 2020 45:09


Uncharted listeners get a free month of PetDesk, plus telemedicine tools Two-Way Messaging and Video Chat included free for 3 months! Learn more at petdesk.com/uncharted. REGISTRATION FOR UVC ONLINE CONFERENCE IS OPEN!! Head over to www.unchartedvet.com and click CONFERENCES This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and practice management goddess Stephanie Goss tackle a question from the mailbag. What makes a good externship? How do you find one? How do you create one? What do you do if you're in a crummy one?? Let's get into it!

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The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 071: You're Doing CE Wrong

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 13, 2020 38:38


Uncharted listeners get a free month of 2-way messaging and telemedicine at Petdesk! Learn more at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted REGISTRATION FOR UVC ONLINE CONFERENCE IS OPEN!! Head over to www.unchartedvet.com and click CONFERENCES This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss go to the mail bag to talk about how most of us are doing CE wrong. What's that mean?! Check it out....

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The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 70: I'm Not Okay With What My Practice Is Doing

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 6, 2020 53:50


Uncharted listeners get a free month of 2-way messaging and telemedicine at Petdesk! Learn more at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted This week on the Uncharted veterinary podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Practice Management Diva Stephanie Goss take a great question from the mail bag. As a new veterinarian, what do you do when your new practice doesn't follow medical and or legal standards? Let's get into it! Information on the Uncharted Online Conference (June 11-14) is coming soon! Register for the 2020 Virtual Veterinary Technician/Nurse Graduation taking place Sunday 5/24 at 5pm EDT, 2pm PDT right here: https://tinyurl.com/2020VetTechGrad

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 069: When Techs Can't Tech Anymore

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 29, 2020 56:32


This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and the amazing Stephanie Goss go to the mail bag to answer a tough, tough question about how to handle the technician who has started making mistakes, slowing down, and falling behind on technology. Let's get into this! We are supported by the amazing people at Petdesk! Check them out and get a month for free at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted. For info and registration for Virtual Graduation this Sunday: https://drandyroark.com/college-of-veterinary-medicine-virtual-graduation/ Try Uncharted free for 6 weeks! Gang, to help practices wrestling to respond to COVID-19 we are opening up Uncharted for 6 weeks to help practices survive and even thrive! To give it a try, head over to this link and sign up: https://unchartedvet.com/product/uncharted-6-week-trial/

covid-19 gang uncharted techs petdesk stephanie goss
The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 068: On-Call is Burning Me Out!

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 22, 2020 47:03


This week on the Uncharted Vet Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss tackle a question from the mailbag. What do you do when the on-call schedule changes, you're getting burned out, and your boss just throws his hands up? Well, that's what we are unpacking today. We are supported by the amazing people at Petdesk! Check them out and get a month for free at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted. Try Uncharted free for 6 weeks! Gang, to help practices wrestling to respond to COVID-19 we are opening up Uncharted for 6 weeks to help practices survive and even thrive! To give it a try, head over to this link and sign up: https://unchartedvet.com/product/uncharted-6-week-trial/

covid-19 gang burning uncharted petdesk stephanie goss
The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 067: I'm New and People Are Mad I Don't Know How To Do Everything

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 15, 2020 41:15


This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and the Now-Healthy Stephanie Goss tackle a mailbag question from Molly. "I'm new and people yell at me for not doing everything right. What should I do?!" Let's get into this! We are supported by the amazing people at Petdesk! Check them out and get a month for free at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted Feeling like you're all alone? Wish you had access to practices all across the US and Canada to see what they are doing and ask for advice? You totally can! Head over to Unchartedvet.com and become a member!

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The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 066: Our New Lead Tech Isn't Cutting It

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 8, 2020 52:32


This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Patient Zero Stephanie Goss take a question from the mail bag. Why isn't this new lead tech performing up to expectations? Why won't she "do it the way I do it?" Let's get into this! We are supported by the amazing people at Petdesk! Check them out and get a month for free at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted Feeling like you're all alone? Wish you had access to practices all across the US and Canada to see what they are doing and ask for advice? You totally can! Head over to Unchartedvet.com and become a member!

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 065: Top Management Questions About COVID-19

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 1, 2020 69:11


This week on the Uncharted Veterinary Podcast, Dr. Andy Roark and Stephanie Goss review the most common questions they are getting on COVID-19 and veterinary practices. We are supported by the amazing people at Petdesk! Check them out and get a special offer at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted Feeling like you're all alone? Wish you had access to practices all across the US and Canada to see what they are doing and ask for advice? You totally can! Head over to Unchartedvet.com and become a member!

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast
UVP 064: Keeping Morale Up During COVID-19

The Uncharted Veterinary Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 25, 2020 70:37


This week on Uncharted, we're talking about how to keep veterinary staff morale up during these daunting times. We are supported by the amazing people at Petdesk! Check them out and get a special offer at: www.petdesk.com/uncharted Feeling like you're all alone? Wish you had access to practices all across the US and Canada to see what they are doing and ask for advice? You totally can! Head over to Unchartedvet.com and become a member!

The SuccessLab Podcast: Where Entrepreneurs Collaborate for Success

Sometimes as an entrepreneur, you set out to build one thing but end up with something else entirely. That was the case with Taylor Cavanah. A trained physicist, he and his best friend were on the path to building a technology company only to stumble across a gapping need in the veterinary world. Today, Taylor is the CEO of PetDesk, a platform that enables pet care providers and pet owners to connect and manage their pet's care.   In this interview, he shares how the company was built, why he prioritizes company culture and the reason it's important for entrepreneurs to keep sharing their ideas with the world. How did PetDesk come to be? It started back when Ken Tsui, my other co-founder, and I worked together in the nanotech world and decided to start a business, but not in the pet space. We were failing upwards building great technology, but not really solving problems. My wife's uncle, who is a vet, kept saying, "Hey, you've got to go into vet space. They really need technology." We didn't listen for probably about a year or so.   Then just to make sure we were getting into the right business I went to WBC, which is a big event conference in Vegas, and halfway through the first day I called Ken and said, "Start building PetDesk!” They were sending postcards with 1980s web portals and treating email like it was the newest, greatest thing –– this was 2013. It just seemed like it was a super obvious time for us to get into the space.   What is your role in the company now versus the early days? My day-to-day now is managing the directors of the company and hiring the missing pieces. Right now I'm very deep in planning on what we're going to do next, what our goals are, how we're going to get there, and training up all of our directors on how to do that type of planning. There's a lot of learning and mentoring, and that's a big part of my job.   What are some of the challenges that you've faced as you've scaled, and how did you overcome them? We went through a rapid growth period. When we hit 30 people this really weird, almost dark cloud descended on the company. We took a Friday afternoon, got everybody together, had a picnic. We opened it up and let everybody air their grievances, ask questions, and it was awesome. Within five days, everything was super sunny and great. We'd also made some personnel changes that needed to happen, and now our culture has been getting stronger and stronger. I guess one of the big learnings there is transparency and openness, and the ability to get everybody to be heard is key.   What's one of the best things that you've done for the business? Your culture is going to develop whether you put form written values or not. And it's not about just writing them down, but how you actually doing all those things that you want to do. Are you practicing radical candor? Are you learning? Are you coaching? Are you having a growth mindset? And does everybody in the company embody that as well?   What tips can you share for training up employees? Training is hard. Look for people who are very, very process-oriented. It's amazing what you can do when you put processes and systems in place, and it's so much easier to do it when you have five people than when you get to 50 people.   What's next for PetDesk? We tripled last year and doubled this year in ARR. The sales team is almost fully built out now. We basically have almost all the hires that we need, but we also understand that the market size that we're in is not huge and the product isn't going to last forever. Nobody's ever gotten 50%, 60%, 70% market share in this space, so we need to be thinking about the next thing.   We'll likely expand to serving groomers, boarders and trainers. We moved out of that space to just focus on vets, and we want to move back in.   What's one piece of advice that you would give to a fellow entrepreneur? Share your idea with everybody. When you're doing that, always ask for constructive criticism and really listen to that feedback. It's easy for us to fall in love with our baby, and the more you can take those blinders off, the better it's going to be. Lightning Round:   Are you a coffee drinker? Yes or no? No, Mountain Dew. I'm trying to kick it. It's the worst way to get caffeine.   What's one business tool you're geeking out over right now? Domo. It's a dashboard aggregator that used to cost like $50,000+ every month, and now you can get it for like $80 per user. I   Do you have a favorite piece of technology? I have a favorite piece of future technology that I really want to see happen. The ability to upload your consciousness, and the merging of machine and human intelligence.   What's one book you would pass along to a fellow entrepreneur? The Challenger Sale.   Who is one person or maybe dog you'd like to have dinner with? Albert Einstein.   How can people connect with you or learn more about PetDesk? E-mail at taylor@petdesk.com. I try to make time to help other entrepreneurs as much as possible.