Podcast appearances and mentions of ashley berner

In this episode of Just Schools, Dr. Jon Eckert speaks with Dr. Lynn E. Swaner, the President US, for Cardus. Lynn's professional experience spans several sectors and encompasses roles in academia, sponsored research, associations, and independent schools. As a result, she is passionate about building bridges within and across fields. They share about the 2023 Cardus Education Survey and what it reveals about the long-term impact of different educational sectors, including Protestant Christian, Catholic, public, independent, and homeschool settings. Swaner highlights key findings: Christian schools continue to excel in faith formation, are improving in academic outcomes, and face growth opportunities around belonging and peer relationships.  The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Be encouraged. Mentioned: Cardus 2023 Findings Work and Worship: Reconnecting Our Labor and Liturgy by Matthew Kaemingk The Sin of Certainty: Why God Desires Our Trust More Than Our "Correct" Beliefs by Peter Enns Connect with us: Center for School Leadership at Baylor University Jon Eckert LinkedIn Baylor MA in School Leadership   Jon: All right, so welcome to the Just Schools podcast. This is Dr. Lynn Swaner. She has a new role as of last year, so we're going to dig in a little bit into that and then some of the work we've been able to do together. So Lynn, thanks for being with us and just tell us a little bit about what you're doing. Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah, thanks so much for having me, Jon. I'm excited to be here and join you and your listeners. So some exciting things that I've been working on, a new part of my role as Cardus President U.S., which I joined in January of last year. I can't believe it's almost been a year. And so in that role... It's helpful for me to explain a little bit about what Cardus does. Cardus is a nonpartisan think tank. It is grounded and rooted in 2000 plus years of Christian social thought. And what we look at are how the different spheres of society. So education is one. For example, healthcare could be another, government, family, citizenship, all work independently as well as work together for flourishing societies. And so we have research files in all of those areas. And of course here in the U.S., I'm still very involved in working with education and that's where we get to the Cardus Education survey, which I know we're going to be talking about today. But just a little bit of framing really quickly about Cardus's philosophy and approach to education. In many societies in the U.S. is no different, there's kind of this division of education into, for example, your traditional public or district schools. You've got private schools, you've got charter schools, which obviously are a type of a public school. You've got homeschooling, etc. And Cardus's position is that all education is public in the sense that it contributes to the public good. And certainly when we do the Cardus education survey, that's what we found will impact that a little bit. But we're finding that different types of schools and homeschooling actually contribute positively to a range of outcomes that we would want healthy, thriving, contributing citizens of our country to demonstrate to and to inculcate. Jon: So great introduction. I first became aware of Cardus through the Cardus education survey because Katie Weins was writing a draft of it as a next door neighbor back, I guess this would've been in 2011, 2012 that she was working on that. And I love the idea of what Cardus is about because it's not trying to say, Hey, we want to privilege this over this, over this. It's like, Hey, no, all education is for this common good and it's all public and let's do this work. And so at the Baylor Center for School Leadership, that's what we want to do. We want to support Christians in whatever work and whatever schools they're called to. So Cardus has been a huge blessing in our work, and it's one of the places where our work's been able to overlap. And so in this last year, we were able to do the data collection for the 2023 Cardus education survey for the U.S. So talk a little bit about the way we collect that data. Getting that nationally representative sample of 24 to 39 year olds is hard, it's expensive and it's not done very often. So can you dig into a little bit of how we collect this data and how Cardus is doing it since 2011, but how we did particularly in 2023? Dr. Lynn Swaner: Sure. And I'd love for you to chime into obviously Jon as a card senior fellow and as a co-author on the report. If you want to provide any additional flavoring to anything I'm saying, feel free to. But I think most particularly practitioners, and if you've done doctoral research, the type of research that you're used to is certainly collecting data on graduates through alumni surveys and things like that. And we also have anecdotal data, right? So graduates will come back and say, "Hey, this is the impact that this teacher had on me," et cetera. And from these and other places, I think most educators know that they make a difference in the lives of students, but we don't always know in a really rigorous way what difference certain types of schools make, let alone what is the impact of a whole sector. And that leads to all different kinds of questions like are we delivering on our promises in our mission statements, [inaudible 00:04:18] of a graduate, et cetera. So that's where the CES comes in. And it is quite different to the types of research that most practitioners will be aware of. And so there's essentially three different ways that I can differentiate the CES, the versus as you mentioned in the sample. So we survey over 2300 graduates in that age 24, 39-year-old bracket, it looks at the five largest educational sectors in the U.S. So those are traditional public schools, Protestant Christian, Catholic, non-religious independent schools and homeschooling. And so that enables us to kind of compare in a healthy way, not in a competitive way, but a healthy way, how graduates from a specific sector are faring. And the way that we do this is we use a leading polling firm in the United States. So we use Ipsos Public Affairs KnowledgePanel, and then from that they generate a nationally representative sample. And so most of the time practitioners will be more familiar with convenient samples, so for example, the alumni that they have emails for or the people who respond, this is very different where we're starting with that polling panel where actually it is already nationally representative and we can weigh things and make sure that it is. That's the first difference. The second is really looking at holistic outcomes. So when we administer the CES, we're asking questions about academic, spiritual, cultural, civic, relational, we even have mental health and well-being in 2023. So we're not just asking, did you go to college? Although we do ask those questions. It's really looking at more of those flourishing outcomes. And probably one of the strongest things that the CES does is we use rigorous controls, which is a fancy research term. So we actually screen out methodologically and statistically the impact of family background characteristics. So that's things like socioeconomic status, education level parents, religiosity of your family, that kind of stuff so that no two graduates are ever identical. But let's say you and I were very, very similar in our backgrounds. And then you multiply that over hundreds of people, we're able to estimate, well, we've got these people who are essentially the same in these major pieces. So any difference that we observe in their life outcomes, we can estimate that we can actually attribute that to the type of school that they went to. So again, nobody's exactly the same, but because we use those rigorous controls, we can actually start to estimate the difference of the specific type of school that they attended. That's just a little background on the CES and the power that it brings to these questions. Jon: Yeah, that's super helpful. And the charts that you see in the report will always have two bars. One that's the raw score and then one that estimates the school effect. And of course, we can't control for every variable, but we control for a lot of them to try to get a better handle. So you'll see those and we try to be as transparent as we can. Again, with any good research, that's what you want to do. Another thing, when we started timeout doing this iteration, I remember talking to you in Ottawa about this. We really wanted to get a sense of how schools have shifted since COVID, because that was this seismic shift and we realized that to collect those data was going to be insurmountably expensive and too hard to do. So we opted for this, which I actually like what we finally landed on this I think is great. These graduates, the 24 to 39 year olds in this sample, the youngest graduates would've finished in 2018. So I feel like we've got this really interesting baseline of what we launched into when COVID created this unbelievably tragic in many ways, but natural experiment when all education shifted because that created a seismic shift like we haven't seen in education ever. And so now we have this data that says, Hey, these are the 24 to 39 year olds that graduated from these places. And so I think the key is to see some of the major findings that came out in this iteration, because I think then future CES surveys will capture some of the shifts that happened in graduates post-2018 when 2020 hit. So can you just lay out three or four of the major findings? Obviously the report is quite long, so if you want to dig into all the different outcomes about civic life, family life, religiosity, faith, mental health, I love the mental health items that we added. What would you say the three or four main findings that people would be most interested in from this iteration of the CES? Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah, so obviously I'll speak specifically to the Christian school sector. In the actual report, we provide a summary of findings for each sector, so for Catholic schools, for Protestant Christian schools, homeschooling, etc. So I'll focus here specifically on Christian schools. And so there's essentially three large sort of theme, thematic findings, if you will. One is really good news in terms of consistency. One is some good changes. And then one is an area that as we've talked with school leaders about this, that they really want to be thinking more deeply about and focus on for growth and improvement. So the first key finding is consistency in faith formation. So as you mentioned, we've done this survey now four times in the U.S. and each since 2011, and in each iteration, Christian schools stand out most distinctly in their ability to foster faith formation. So when we look at things like religious engagement in terms of going to church, regular practices such as prayer, Bible reading, when we look at spiritual vibrancy, so like saying that their schools prepared them for a vibrant spiritual life or they have a higher sense of regularly experiencing God's presence compared to all the other formal schooling sectors, Christian schools stand out the most in terms of their graduates report that at much higher levels. And we even see beyond personal faith that graduates are seemingly living out those values in a couple of ways specifically. So for example, they participate in charitable giving and volunteerism at much higher levels than graduates of other formal schooling sectors. So that's really good news. Again, we've seen that consistently, and I think it makes sense, right? If you have schools, some estimates like 13 to 15,000 hours spent in a school in a formal schooling context, right? And if one of the stated outcomes is these types of spiritual formation outcomes, then we would hope to see that in the data. And in fact, we do. And again, remember this is after estimating school effect, right? So this is not the influence of family, although of course we know families influence this and churches, et cetera. This is saying we take two students that look the same in terms of background, we're going to notice this benefit, this boost. So that's consistent finding number one. The next- Jon: Hey, can I jump in there real quick, Lynn? Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah, please. Jon: So on that, just to make sure, because you're not able to see the charts because it's a podcast, we will try to link this to the podcast so you can look at the report. And Lynn's done a great blog summary of this too. So we will post that as well. What she means by that is, so for example on how often, if at all, do you pray to God or some higher power, 37% of public school students, there are baselines. So when you look at the report, don't think the public school people are left out, they are the baseline. Everything's being compared against the public school because that was the largest population that we look at. 24% more Protestant Christian school graduates pray to God or a higher power regularly, just the raw score. When you adjust for all the other demographics that feed into that graduate, that drops to 14%, that's still significant at the 0.01 level. So that means with 99% certainty, that's not random. And so that's what she means when she says, Hey, even controlling for school effects. So we try to focus in on those things that are significant even when you control for demographic backgrounds, because it would make sense. Well, if you grow up in a family where that's typical and that's normal and you have all these things, then maybe that's all that it is. And the school doesn't have any effect. That doesn't appear to be the case on an item like that. So thanks for setting up and let me interject there into the wonky details that people can't see. Dr. Lynn Swaner: No, that's really, really helpful. Trying to paint a word picture here, but just a plug for folks to access the report. One of the really great things about these graphics, which are some of the best I think we've ever done, is you can actually, on the online report, you can just simply click and download any of these figures. So if you want to pop it into... They're publicly and freely available. But yeah, thanks for flushing that out, Jon. So that's the consistency piece we've seen. Key finding number two is rising academic outcomes. So people who've been in Christian education for a while will remember the 2011 CES. I certainly remember when that came out because I was in a Christian school at the time. And at that time, Christian school graduates were reporting lower levels than their public school peers when it came to college attainment, when it came to feeling prepared for academics post-secondary school. And what we see in the 2023 data is that that has significantly improved. So now Christian school graduates are trending at the same levels when they report as their public school peers earning bachelor's degrees, how well-prepared they feel for college, et cetera. And I think, Jon, I'd be curious to hear your take on this, but this to me reflects what many Christian school leaders have shared with me anecdotally and what I have seen in the field. That over the past decade or so, schools have worked to increase academic rigor, right? So I think this is something that as I'm sharing this with school leaders, that seems to really ring true with them. That it used to be years ago sort of the sense of, well, we really, really care about the spiritual outcomes. We're not as concerned about academic. And there's been a rethinking of that to say, well, actually, if we're going to be a school, then we need to do academics really, really well, both... Because of our spiritual mission. Because we want to be excellent to honor the name of Christ, and also because we want students to be well-prepared for whatever good works. Think about Ephesians 2:10 that God has prepared for them. So Jon, I'm assuming you've seen some of that as well, but I think this is worth celebrating. There's still more work to do, right? We don't want to settle for, okay, Christian schools are at par with public schools. There's still more to do, but I think this is something worth celebrating. Jon: Well, I agree, and I think there's been this shift even in the last few years where there's some skepticism about college as the ideal outcome for kids because of the sense that some colleges skew worldview in these ways that may not be in keeping with the belief system that a more conservative family might have. And so the way this question is worded I think is well set up. And again, we took this from previous surveys, so it's not like Lynn and I are sitting here complimenting our structure of our question here. But it's how well did your high school prepare you for academic success in post-secondary education or training? So it's this kind of wide open, Hey, do you feel prepared? 31% of public school students said, yeah, they were. Even when controlling for the family effect and the other socioeconomic effects, Protestant Christian schools are 22% higher than that, so that's 53%, over half of them felt that way. Now, unless we think we're getting everything right, Catholic schools are at 59% and non-religious independent schools are at 64%. So we still have room to continue growing in that. I think that's one that, again, its perception is somewhat reality here. If you don't feel like you're prepared for post-secondary success, then you probably aren't. And at 24 to 39, you have evidence that says, yeah, I wasn't really well-prepared. And so I do feel like given the previous iterations of CES, I think Protestant schools have made some big gains there. And I think that's super encouraging. And I hope that coming out of COVID, that that momentum can continue. Because I think for many schools that was a moment to say, Hey, look, this is a really good place to try to meet needs for specific learners that help them be prepared for life, not just for economic outcomes, but for outcomes more broadly. Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah. I think too, just to go meta for a minute, I think it's also really encouraging... I'm encouraged by this, that if a whole sector or let's say a large number of schools within a sector say, Hey, this is something we're going to improve on, we're going to be intentional about, we actually have evidence that it can make a difference, and that should be obvious. But I think when you get into the nitty-gritty of leading a school, of teaching in a school day in and day out, that can be hard to remember. And so I hope that schools, educators, leaders find this encouraging that when we focus on something... And the other interesting piece here which we don't have to go into in depth, is that I think a decade or two ago, there was this perception maybe that if we focus on the academic, it would be at the detriment of spiritual formation. And we're not seeing that. So it's not like all of a sudden there's been this precipitous drop and spiritual formation with academic outcomes skyrocketing. That's not what's happening. And so I think that's just really kind of a validation of the work that schools have been doing and still need to do, but I just want to kind of point that out. Jon: Well, and to quickly add to that, if you look at the highest level of school completed, this is the broader perception of preparation for post-secondary. When you control for the sector, Protestant schools are almost identical to public schools on bachelor's degree or higher, a 0.01 higher in that. So it's not that we necessarily have more students going on to bachelor's degrees or higher in Protestant Christian schools, it's that they feel more prepared for whatever it is they're heading into, whatever that might be. And so I think that is an encouragement that academics, you don't look at academics as one subset that hurts the others. As Christians, we should be doing everything excellent ways. And so I like the robust way that the Cardus survey, especially this year, tries to look at that. Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah. So we'll move on to the final... And again, encourage everyone to download the report, lasts to be seen and to understand. But the final thing that stands out and that really is resonating as we speak with schools and leaders and teachers, is sort of this broad category of shortfalls in belonging and peer relationships. So the first thing is in terms of overall mental health and well-being, graduate of Christian schools report similar levels in terms of depression, anxiety as peers and other sectors. So that I guess is good news in the sense that they're not necessarily more anxious or struggling with well-being than other sectors. It's important to just mention that graduates of homeschooling are the only sector that experienced lower rates in that. So that's really interesting. That's a conversation for another day. But that's the first thing. But what we did observe is that... And this is slight, it's not extreme, so we can pull the numbers and they're not hugely significant, but it still, we can see this is that graduates of Christian schools seem to have a lower sense of belonging. So saying they felt that they belonged when they were in their schools and also slightly weaker peer relationships. And this all compared to their public school counterparts. So again, you mentioned the public school being the baseline. So we're not even talking about non-religious independent Catholic schools. We're just talking about the public school comparison. And what's really interesting is that even though they had this sense, lower sense of belonging, they still felt like their schools were really close-knit communities. And that's a bit of a paradox, I guess you could say. Their schools were really, really close-knit, but they didn't feel they belonged at the same rate as public school graduates and other graduates of other sectors. So I think this is... There's a lot of speculation. Obviously the data doesn't explain why this is the case. And as I've talked with school leaders, as you've talked with leaders trying to give some thoughts around this, some interesting things are coming up, which is it's very easy to look to the external environment for answers. So if you look at 24 to 39-year-olds right now, we know that a significant tranche of that group would've been impacted during high school by smartphones, social media, even some declining enrollment in private schools, right? So immediately we're going to... Cyberbullying, we turn to those kinds of things. And that's absolutely true, and there's no doubt that those things had an impact. But where the question is, is why didn't we see the same dip in the other sectors, right? Because arguably, Catholic school enrollments were dropping at the same time. Independent school enrollments, everybody's got smartphones. So I think there's something unique to the Christian school environment that we need to ask the question, what happened there? What's going on? And again, anecdotally, just as I saw over the last 10 plus years, an emphasis on improving academics, I think we've started in Christian schools to really be thinking about how do we build communities where there's a sense of belonging, right? Where we have people from different backgrounds, where we are working on bullying, we're working on these things. And it'll be interesting to track this into future years, but there's a lot of discussion about this and why this could be, how we can do this better. Jon: Yeah, I think this is a great example of where the CES is super helpful because Protestant schools and public schools are not statistically significantly different. About half the kids feel like they belong, about half don't. So we had about half say, agree or strongly agree in both public schools and Protestant schools. But what I'm fascinated by is the non-religious independent schools. Even when controlling for school effect, they are significantly by 21%, 18% different where you have 68, 70% of their kids feeling they belong. And when you lean into stereotypes about secular independent schools, it's like, oh, well, those are going to be clicky, they're elitist, and they're all these things, but based on these data, they feel like they belong and they have stronger relationships with students at their schools. So I mean, I think that's something to dig into. And Catholic schools are similar. They don't have quite the same effect, but Catholic schools are significantly higher on belonging and on the relationships with students in schools. And so again, if all education is public education, then we should be learning from each other, from our areas of relative strength. And so I think that's a super helpful finding, even though it may be a little bit hard to look at because we want to make sure each kid belongs at our school and half of them saying they don't feel they belong. That's a punch in the gut to educators, but we've got to look into it and we've got to find ways to do that better. And I think, my hope is that it's 2020 on all schools have gotten more thoughtful about that, and I hope Protestant Christian schools have been leading the way in that. And I hope we see that in future iterations of the CES. But are you optimistic about that, Lynn? Dr. Lynn Swaner: I am, and I think I would go back to what I said. One of the most encouraging things about the findings for me has been one, as a sector or a large number of schools in the sector say, Hey, we're going to focus on improving this. We see the results. And so I think certainly in all the marketing materials I've ever seen for every Christian school... I know Christian school is saying, we have a sort of unfriendly community or environment, and kids aren't going to... Usually it's the opposite where Christian schools are saying, we're a family, we're so close-knit. And I think the findings here suggest and encourage us to not just assume that that is happening. Just because we say that we're a close-knit community, that kids are loved and feel like they belong, just because we say that, doesn't mean automatically that that is happening. And so we just need to lean into that, and that's going to look different on every campus, right? I certainly am hopeful about some of the changing approaches to technology in schools that are more thoughtful, more intentional than I think reactional... Reactionary, I should say. So I think a lot of schools are thinking about, Hey, if we let kids have cell phones... I just heard about school the other day that lets the students have cell phones in passing periods. Well, okay, they have their cell phone in passing periods, but then they're not of looking up and talking with people, whereas other schools will say, you can't have them. We're going to lock them away for the full day. And then you have students who are like, I got to talk to people in the hall. So I just think schools are being more intentional about this. And I guess my encouragement would be to lean in that even more deeply and understand what this looks like at your school, what are some of the pressure points for students, ask your graduates and your alumni. And I think it's just a really good way for us to say, Hey, let's continue leaning into what we say about ourselves and also what we want to be. Jon: Yeah. I'm so encouraged hearing about all the loud cafeterias that are coming back. I think that's a blessing. And so that's an encouragement. So we're going to do a quick lightning round here, and I'm going to frame these, and you can answer them as succinctly as you can. But if you were to say, Hey, here is the worst piece of advice that you could take from the CES. If you were to say somebody were to look at this and say, Hey, you should take this finding from the CES, and this would be... What would be a misapplication of the CES? And then on the other side, what would be the best application of something coming out of the CES? Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah, that's an interesting one. I think a misapplication of the CES would be to make a declarative statement and say, if you want your child to be this way, you should send them to this type of school. I think that would be a mistake. Because there's a lot of nuance that the CES doesn't... At least if you read it doesn't capture it certainly. And so that would be sort of the negative mistake. How do I think it... And what was the other question? What would be the one thing I would want the- Jon: Best takeaway from the CES. Dr. Lynn Swaner: The best takeaway would be that not that different schools have different kinds of outcomes, and they're rich and diverse and holistic. And so each one of the sectors that we looked at has really, really positive things about it, including public schools and has some things that they need to work on. And so I think that the best takeaway would be to not write off any of schools and to also not say this is the only way to do it. But rather to look at the data to understand, hey, if you're a parent, to say these are our values as a family, these are the things that we want. And we see there's a couple sectors that do these things really well. There's a couple that maybe we wouldn't be interested in that and to make a really informed decision based on that. So I think that would be number one if you were families. And the second thing I would say is just for people who are involved in policymaking, people who are like lawmakers, advocates, is this is not a zero-sum game. There are millions of children in this country, and the vast majority, some, I think around 80% are in public school settings, about 20% are not, which that's not an insignificant number. That's one in five kids. And all of these schools are public education. All of these schools are training people and hopefully creating productive human beings and flourishing human beings and et cetera. And so when we look at how to set up our educational system, there really is... I think about our colleague, Ashley Berner at Jons Hopkins, who's also a senior fellow at Cardus. The subtitle one of her books, the title of her book is No One Way to School. There is no one way to school, and not every school is right for every kid, every year. And so if we have a robust educational system that allows families to make choices that fit their children and fit their needs and the types of things that they want to see for their kids, that is not only the most just system, but also the CES provides evidence that all kids can flourish. Jon: And that's the goal, each kid flourishing. So I always have to ask, what's your favorite book or one of your... I know you read a lot. One of your favorite books you've read in the last year? Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah, that's a really tough question. Jon: I know. I know- Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah, I'm going to have to say two. One of which is a little bit more academic, and another one which is a little more accessible. So the first would be Work and Worship. So that's actually by Matthew Kaemingk and Cory Wilson. So Matt Kaemingk is out at Fuller. And it really looks at how... We were just having this conversation about Christian schools, right? So bifurcating, academics and spiritual formation. And we do that a lot with our work, right? Maybe a little bit less in Christian school settings, but really taking a look at how we bring our work as an offering of worship and how we worship through our work. And I was not raised in a liturgical background. Getting to know the beauty of liturgy more now as an adult and as I continue on in my faith, and just to be able to look through this book and see different prayers and liturgies for work has been really, really encouraging. So it's the first one. And the second one is The Sin of Certainty. Subtitles, Why God Desires Our Trust More Than Our "Correct" Beliefs. So this is by Peter Enns, who's actually out of Eastern University near where I live. And what I really like about this book is I think I can't really diagnose this or talk about this briefly in a podcast. In fact, I'm working on a book that looks at this in depth. But God calls us to love him with all of our heart, our mind, soul strength, and love your neighbor as yourself, right? And I think it's easy for schools, it's easy for educators to focus on one of those. It's easy as disciples to focus on one, but that's really not, we're called for this sort of total discipleship. And I think a lot of times, there's been a lot of wonderful things through the emphasis on biblical worldview that we've had in Christian schools. But oftentimes that can morph into, Hey, let's have the correct beliefs, right? Let's get everybody to think rightly about these issues, about what's going on society, etc. And so much of our faith is not just thinking correctly, it's also learning to trust in God and not having the answers, right? And having complicated situations, right? Artificial intelligence, very complicated, right? So how are we going to get the correct belief around that? So this book has been really, really helpful to be thinking about how really people over millennia, literally millennia, have trusted God without always having all the answers in front of them. Jon: That's good. All right, last question. Looking ahead, after we clicked this data, which is kind of backward looking, what was your experience like in schools? And then we do all this work with schools in the present, and then we get to look ahead. What makes you most hopeful about what you see in the future for education that's for the common good? Dr. Lynn Swaner: Yeah. So what makes me most hopeful, I've been spending a lot of time... In fact, I just got back from the International School Choice and Reform Conference presenting there on this data. And what makes me really hopeful is that there's a renewed interest in education by parents, by people who never saw themselves as educational entrepreneurs or edupreneurs as the topic is or as the title may be. So I think there's just a plethora of new types of school options coming on board. So hybrid micro-school, co-ops, all kinds of things that are growing and they're really, really exciting. It's a little bit of the wild west in some ways, but I am excited to see people excited about the possibilities for education as opposed to we're locked into choices that were made 100 plus years ago, and we're just sort of trying to live with the consequences. So I'm excited about the innovation and the diversity that I'm seeing in educational types and models. I think that's going to grow over the coming years. I think as we have more funding available at the state level, I think we'll see parents taking advantage of that. And I'm excited to see what's going to happen. I like change in general. I'm not a person who doesn't change, but I think we're due for a bit of a transformation of our educational system where we end up putting students at the center instead of systems and structures and sort of the way that we've always done things. Jon: That's great. Well, Lynn, really appreciate your time and the work that you do at Cardus and the Cardus education survey. Again, the great thing about Cardus is we're looking to support each kid in the way that they are made so they can become more of who they're created to be. So we don't like to get in the weeds on policy issues and how you should structure vouchers and are these bad. I mean, Texas, we're in the middle of voucher wars and at the end of the day, everybody in Texas wants to make sure each kid is educated well, and families have to be involved in those decisions. And are. I mean, we've made choices with where we live and where we go for years. And so school choice is not a new idea. And I think we need voices like Cardus there saying, Hey, look, this is what graduates are saying about these educa... And we put it out there transparently and we spend the money to get a nationally representative sample so that we try our best to give a accurate picture. So grateful for your work, always grateful for your work at Cardus, and thanks for your time.  

On this week's Education Gadfly Show podcast, Philip K. Howard, chair of Common Good and a bestselling author, joins Mike and David to discuss what it takes to create positive school environments, as outlined in his recent Hoover Institution essay, “The human authority needed for good schools.” Then, on the Research Minute, Amber shares an Urban Institute report analyzing states' demographically adjusted 2022 NAEP performance.Recommended content: Philip K. Howard, “The human authority needed for good schools,” Hoover Institution (November 19, 2024).Ashley Berner, “3 ways to increase choice and decrease polarization in U.S. schools,” Thomas B. Fordham Institute (September 23, 2024).Jeff Murray, “Digging into the 2024 survey of American public school teachers,” Thomas B. Fordham Institute (July 25, 2024).Matthew Chingos, States' Demographically Adjusted Performance on the 2022 Nation's Report Card, Urban Institute (2024). Feedback Welcome: Have ideas for improving our podcast? Send them to Stephanie Distler at sdistler@fordhaminstitute.org.

This week on The Learning Curve, guest co-hosts University of Arkansas Prof. Albert Cheng and Charlie Chieppo interview Johns Hopkins' Institute for Education Policy director, Dr. Ashley Berner. She discusses educational pluralism’s role in improving K-12 performance, exploring European models and the impact of U.S. school choice programs. Dr. Berner analyzes universal ESAs and vocational-technical schooling, addressing persistent academic struggles and civic knowledge gaps. She shares how the potential of […]

This week on The Learning Curve, guest co-hosts University of Arkansas Prof. Albert Cheng and Charlie Chieppo interview Johns Hopkins’ Institute for Education Policy director, Dr. Ashley Berner. She discusses educational pluralism’s role in improving K-12 performance, exploring European models and the impact of U.S. school choice programs. Dr. Berner analyzes universal ESAs and vocational... Source

This week on The Learning Curve, guest co-hosts University of Arkansas Prof. Albert Cheng and Charlie Chieppo interview Johns Hopkins' Institute for Education Policy director, Dr. Ashley Berner. She discusses educational pluralism's role in improving K-12 performance, exploring European models and the impact of U.S. school choice programs. Dr. Berner analyzes universal ESAs and vocational-technical schooling, addressing persistent academic struggles and civic knowledge gaps. She shares how the potential of liberal arts education could unify a divided society. In closing Dr. Berner reads from her new book, Educational Pluralism and Democracy: How to Handle Indoctrination, Promote Exposure, and Rebuild America's Schools. 

Susan Pendergrass speaks with Ashley Berner about the importance of pluralism in education, how different countries think about pluralism in education, and more. Dr. Ashley Rogers Berner Ashley Berner is Director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy and Associate Professor of Education. She served previously as the Deputy Director of the CUNY Institute for Education Policy and as an administrator at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture, University of Virginia. Palgrave MacMillan released Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School (2017), and Dr. Berner has published articles, book chapters, and op-eds on citizenship formation, academic outcomes, pluralism, and the political theories of education in different national contexts. She led the design of the Institute's School Culture 360™ and ELA and Social Studies Knowledge Maps™. Her earlier teaching experience took place in a Jewish pre-school, an Episcopal secondary school, and an open university in Louisiana; she currently advises doctoral students and teaches in the master's program at Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Berner represents the Institute's work across the country and consults regularly with international, federal, and state-level agencies, non-governmental organizations, and school systems. She held a five-year fellowship at the Center for the Study of Law & Religion at Emory University School of Law and currently serves as an advisor to iCivics and the Educating for American Democracy project. Dr. Berner holds degrees from Davidson College (Honors A.B.) and from Oxford University (M.Litt. and D.Phil. in Modern History). Produced by Show-Me Opportunity

Hi Friends. It's Tim Villegas, and for this week, we are switching things up a bit with a feed drop. What's a feed drop, you ask? Well, let me tell you. It's where we share a podcast episode made by someone else that we think is great with you right here in our podcast feed. As Think Inclusive listeners, we know that building bridges is important to you, and that is why we think you are going to appreciate this episode. This week we are featuring the Democracy Works podcast, and in this episode, they are talking about civics education in the US. Chris Beem, Candis Watts Smith and Jenna Spinelle discuss the importance of civic learning with Emma Humphreys of iCivics and Ashley Berner of Johns Hopkins. They think that civics education is important because it teaches students about how government works and how they can participate in decision-making. They also believe that schools should teach controversial topics and provide students with the skills to handle them. The episode also discusses the knowledge and skills needed for civic learning, such as history, political theory, economics, and geography. Emma and Ashley suggest that schools need more resources and flexibility to teach civic learning effectively. And now, please enjoy the Democracy Works Podcast.Episode show notes + transcript: https://www.democracyworkspodcast.com/civic-learning-week/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The educational system in the United States bears a stark similarity to our political and economic structures, marked by both astonishing successes and painful failures. Amy and Mike invited professor Ashley Berner to examine pluralistic models and explore assumptions about public education. What are five things you will learn in this episode? What is the current framework for public education in America? How does US public education compare to models in other democracies? Can education be morally neutral? What is the case for educational pluralism vs uniformity? How can educational consistency be tracked in a pluralistic system? MEET OUR GUEST Ashley Berner is the Director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy and Associate Professor of Education. She served previously as the Deputy Director of the CUNY Institute for Education Policy and as an administrator at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture, University of Virginia. Palgrave MacMillan released Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School (2017), and Harvard Education Press will publish her next book, Exposure v Indoctrination: Pluralism and American Democracy, in early 2024. Dr. Berner has published articles, book chapters, and op-eds on citizenship formation, academic outcomes, pluralism, and the political theories of education in different national contexts. She led the design of the Institute's School Culture 360™ and ELA and Social Studies Knowledge Maps™. Her teaching experience took place in a Jewish pre-school, an Episcopal secondary school, and an open university in Louisiana; she currently advises doctoral students at Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Berner represents the Institute's work across the country and consults regularly with international, federal, and state-level agencies, non-governmental organizations, and school systems. She held a five-year fellowship at the Center for the Study of Law; Religion at Emory University School of Law and currently serves as an advisor to the Educating for American Democracy project, the Johns Hopkins Undergraduate Debate Program, and CivXNow!'s Research and Best Practices Affinity Group. Dr. Berner holds degrees from Davidson College (Honors A.B.) and from Oxford University (M.Litt. and D.Phil. in Modern History). Find Ashley at Ashley.Berner@jhu.edu and @BernerEd. LINKS Will ESAs change America's definition of “public education? What if we Replaced Public School Districts with Less Rigid Systems What American schools can learn from other countries about civic disagreement. Education for the Common Good No One Way to School: Educational Pluralism and Why it Matters (TEDxWilmington) RELATED EPISODES LEVELING THE PLAYING FIELD WHERE MODERN EDUCATION FAILS WHY GIFTED PROGRAMS ARE UNDER ATTACK ABOUT THIS PODCAST Tests and the Rest is THE college admissions industry podcast. Explore all of our episodes on the show page. ABOUT YOUR HOSTS Mike Bergin is the president of Chariot Learning and founder of TestBright. Amy Seeley is the president of Seeley Test Pros. If you're interested in working with Mike and/or Amy for test preparation, training, or consulting, feel free to get in touch through our contact page.    

More than ever, civic learning is needed to ensure each and every person across this country has the necessary tools to engage as members of our self-governing society. However, schools are also a growing part of the culture wars. According to a 2022 National Education Association Survey, nearly half of schools reported challenges teaching about race and racism and practices related to LGBTQ students in the classroom. As we've discussed before on the show, book bans, funding cuts, and teacher shortages are also making teaching anything — let alone civics — more difficult.At this critical juncture, Civic Learning Week unites students, educators, policymakers, and private sector leaders to energize the movement for civic education across the nation. This week's episode includes two experts who talk about the theory and practice of strengthening civics education in these polarizing times.Emma Humphries is Chief Education Officer and Deputy Director of Field Building for iCivics, the non-profit founded by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor to reinvigorate civics through free, interactive learning resources. Emma serves as iCivics' pedagogical expert, ensures its resources evolve to a place of greater equity and deeper learning for all students, and advocates for more and better civic education across the country.Ashley Berner is Director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy and Associate Professor of Education. She served previously as the Deputy Director of the CUNY Institute for Education Policy and as an administrator at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture at the University of Virginia. Her most recent book is Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School.Civic Learning WeekiCivics poling on bipartisan support for civic educationDiffusing the History Wars: Finding Common Ground in Teaching America's National StoryAdditional InformationDemocracy Works PodcastMore shows from The Democracy Group

More than ever, civic learning is needed to ensure each and every person across this country has the necessary tools to engage as members of our self-governing society. However, schools are also a growing part of the culture wars. According to a 2022 National Education Association Survey, nearly half of schools reported challenges teaching about race and racism and practices related to LGBTQ students in the classroom. As we've discussed before on the show, book bans, funding cuts, and teacher shortages are also making teaching anything — let alone civics — more difficult.At this critical juncture, Civic Learning Week unites students, educators, policymakers, and private sector leaders to energize the movement for civic education across the nation. This week's episode includes two experts who talk about the theory and practice of strengthening civics education in these polarizing times.Emma Humphries is Chief Education Officer and Deputy Director of Field Building for iCivics, the non-profit founded by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor to reinvigorate civics through free, interactive learning resources. Emma serves as iCivics' pedagogical expert, ensures its resources evolve to a place of greater equity and deeper learning for all students, and advocates for more and better civic education across the country.Ashley Berner is Director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy and Associate Professor of Education. She served previously as the Deputy Director of the CUNY Institute for Education Policy and as an administrator at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Culture at the University of Virginia. Her most recent book is Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School.Civic Learning WeekiCivics poling on bipartisan support for civic educationDiffusing the History Wars: Finding Common Ground in Teaching America's National Story

On this week's Education Gadfly Show podcast, Ashley Berner of Johns Hopkins University tells us why education savings accounts are unlikely to lead to educational pluralism. Then, on the Research Minute, Adam Tyner discusses a study on remediation for middle school students that had very different short-term versus long-term effects.Recommended content:“Will ESAs change America's definition of ‘public education?': An interview with Ashley Berner” —Rober Pondiscio“Partisanship and American education” —Ashley Berner“2 more states approve universal school voucher programs” —K-12 Dive“From School Choice to Parent Choice” —City JournalThe study that Adam reviewed on the Research Minute: David N. Figlio and Umut Özek, “The Unintended Consequences of Test-Based Remediation,” National Bureau of Economic Research Working Paper (January 2023). Feedback Welcome:Have ideas for improving our podcast? Send them to our producer Nathaniel Grossman at ngrossman@fordhaminstitute.org. 

Dr. Ashley Rogers Berner, Director of Education Policy at John Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland discusses the history of teaching in the United States.

On this episode, Ashley Berner joins Mark Bauerlein to discuss the Maine religious school tuition case.

Ashley Berner joins Mark Bauerlein to discuss the Maine religious school tuition case.

Dr. Ashley Berner, an associate professor at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and member of Alberta's curriculum advisory panel.

We all know there's no shortage of criticism, but today, we offer a defense of the UCP curriculum rewrite from a member of the advisory panel, Ashley Berner, who is also an associate professor at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. An economist and business groups call on the federal government to turn down the heat -- Goldy Hyder, the chief executive of the Business Council of Canada, discusses how too much stimulus funding could backfire.

What are schools really teaching our kids? Are they educating them on information that is actually relevant to our world right now? Most of our schools just aren’t teaching our kids things like how to vote and make wise decisions about policies. Those topics usually aren’t even brought up. That’s why I am so excited to talk with Ashley Berner this week. Ashley is the Director of the John Hopkins Institute for Education Policy. In this position, she helps make the connection between what happens in schools to how prepared students are to be active citizens of a democratic society. In this episode, we are discussing the role parents have in preparing our kids for that kind of conscious citizenship. Tune in to hear some amazing insights from Ashley. Show Highlights: How Ashley defines civics. The 4 adult capacities of an informed citizen. The benefits of watching political speeches and debates with our children and critiquing what we see. Why we should explain our own views and opposing views to our children. How to get your kids engaged in civics if you’re not a political family. The power of explaining the rationale behind our perspectives. Practical things we can do to give our kids a civics education. The importance of engaging in and talking about the suffering in the world with your kids. How to raise your kids to discern between facts and conspiracy theories. Links (affiliates included): Some resources for parents: “Parent Resource: Civics at Home.” Baltimore, MD: Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy, April 22, 2020.  “In a Polarized America, What Can We Do about Civil Disagreement?” Brookings (blog), April 10, 2020.  “Partisanship and American Education.” Flypaper at the Thomas B. Fordham Institute(blog), October 15, 2020.  “An Informed Citizenry.” Johns Hopkins University: The Hub(blog), October 30, 2020.  Parenting Forward Conference Sessions - https://www.parentingforwardconference.com/2020-sessions Join us at the Parenting Forward Patreon Team - https://www.patreon.com/cindywangbrandt Parenting Forward, the Book - https://amzn.to/3g0LJPn *** EPISODE CREDITS: If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Danny Ozment. He helps thought leaders, influencers, executives, HR professionals, recruiters, lawyers, realtors, bloggers, coaches, and authors create, launch, and produce podcasts that grow their business and impact the world. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com

In this episode, Step Up For Students president Doug Tuthill speaks with Ashley Berner, deputy director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy and associate professor at the Johns… The post PodcastED: SUFS president Doug Tuthill interviews Johns Hopkins University’s Ashley Berner appeared first on redefinED.

This week on “The Learning Curve,” Cara and Gerard continue coverage of COVID-19's impact on K-12 education, joined by Ashley Berner, Deputy Director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy. Ashley discusses what America can learn from other countries about how to shift from a uniform system in which district schools focus on workforce skills, to one that embraces a liberal arts... Source

In this episode, we're joined by Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy's Ashley Rogers Berner and The Atlantic's Alia Wong to discuss educational pluralism.   Links from this episode:   Ashley Berner | Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy Alia Wong | The Atlantic The Case for Educational Pluralism in the U.S. | Dr. Ashley Berner | Manhattan Institute No One Way to School: Educational Pluralism and Why it Matters | Ashley Berner | TEDxWilmingtonED  

Ashley Berner, professor at Johns Hopkins University and deputy director of the Institute for Education Policy, discusses her book, "No One Way to School." She unpacks how the United States moved from a pluralist education system to a uniform system. For more information, visit www.edchoice.org.

When it comes to teaching reading, most American schools prioritize skill acquisition over background knowledge. Students are asked to find the main idea of a passage without learning the background knowledge that the passage is discussing. However, research shows that background knowledge is more critical to reading comprehension than disembodied skills. In this episode, host […] The post https://www.aei.org/multimedia/is-the-achievement-gap-actually-a-knowledge-gap-with-natalie-wexler-and-ashley-berner/ (Is the achievement gap actually a knowledge gap? (with Natalie Wexler and Ashley Berner)) appeared first on https://www.aei.org (American Enterprise Institute - AEI).

Ashley Berner joins senior editor Mark Bauerlein to discuss her book “Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School.”

Dr. Ashley Rogers Berner, Deputy Director of the Institute for Education Policy at Johns Hopkins School of Education, joins Reality Check to discuss educational pluralism and more: her 2016 book, Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School, educational choice in America and around the globe, international communities’ attitudes toward the biggest domestic educational issues, the history of religious schools and their resurgence in the States, educational models we can learn from, and how teachers are using their freedom as educators and what they can do to continue to improve schools. These topics and more on this week’s Episode 62 of Reality Check.

On this week’s podcast, Ashley Berner, assistant professor and deputy director of the Institute for Education Policy at Johns Hopkins, joins David Griffith and Adam Tyner to discuss pluralism in American education. On the Research Minute, Amber Northern examines the latest data on school spending, as well as high school dropout and completion rates from the Institute of Education Sciences.

Ashley Berner (ashley.berner@jhu.edu) is the Deputy Director of the Institute for Education Policy at Johns Hopkins University and the author of Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School. A year ago I had a conversation with Ashley regarding the argument in the book about the ideas for and potential behind a more pluralistic approach to education in the United States. In this conversation, she shares what has happened since last year with the argument, and how pluralism might actually be a Middle Path in education policy between the current public system and a privatized alternative. Likewise, she shares about the Knowledge Map Project that is providing incredible insights into  developing a greater "vision for an educated person." Resources mentioned: NCEE: www.ncee.org The New Teacher Project: www.tntp.org 50Can: www.50can.org Chiefs for Change: www.chiefsforchange.org  Ed Reports: www.edreports.org 

Catholic School Matters Radio Hour's host, Dr. Tim Uhl, is joined by three guests on this show: Brittany Wilmes (1:15) of NCR and host of the "In Conversation" podcast, will talk about events in and around the Catholic Church; Antonio Felix of LMU and a former inner-city Catholic school principal, will talk about the vocation and challenges of Catholic schools; and Professor and author Ashley Berner of Johns Hopkins discusses pluralism and the public school landscape.  #catholicschoolmatters

Dr. Ashley Berner, an education policy professor at Johns Hopkins University, recently wrote a book titled, Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School. It's an innovative take on public education, and she discusses it here with The Foundation's Dr. Kevin Roberts. 

Ashley Berner is Deputy Director of the Johns Hopkins Institute for Education Policy and Assistant Professor of Education and author of “Pluralism and American Public Education: No One Way to School”. She has also published articles and book chapters on the relationship between educational structure and state funding in democratic nations, religious education and citizenship formation, and teacher preparation in different national contexts.  

As Ashley Berner explains in a new book, public education does not have to mean that all schools are the same. In earlier days, and in other countries, the government is the regulator of schools and provides quality control but does not directly operate all schools. This version of public education may better reflect American democracy, Berner notes. Ashley Berner joins Marty West to discuss pluralism and public education in this week's episode of the EdNext podcast. A blog entry she wrote based on her book appeared earlier this year: http://educationnext.org/to-improve-education-america-look-beyond-traditional-school-model/ Also, Robert Pondiscio reviewed her book for EdNext: http://educationnext.org/pitfalls-of-uniform-state-run-public-education-berner/