Podcast appearances and mentions of carrie clifford

Michael and Phil talk about different ways to break into Hollywood and most of it isn't what you'd think. Learn how Michael broke in, how Phil broke in, and the right way to think about accessing Hollywood.Show NotesOnline Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeWarner Brother's Writer's Workshop - https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/writers-workshop/Marc Maron - http://www.wtfpod.com/Rhett & Link - https://mythical.com/Joe Rogan - https://www.joerogan.com/Sarah Cooper's Netflix Show - https://www.netflix.com/title/81314070Sarah Cooper's CBS Pilot - https://deadline.com/2021/04/amy-york-rubin-to-direct-sarah-cooper-cindy-chupack-cbs-comedy-pilot-1234726403/Blaire Erskine - https://www.instagram.com/blaire.erskine/?hl=enTwirlyGirl - https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/Michael (00:00):Even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we got to be on a great show, but for, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than none at all.Michael (00:25):All right. Welcome everyone today. We're talking about different paths to break into Hollywood, cuz you all wanna break into Hollywood, right? Yeah. That's the goal. That's the goal. So there's just so many different ways. Like people say, well, how do I get in? And there's, there's really no, obviously there's no one way. It's not like becoming a doctor where you go to Med School and that's what you, you know, eventually you become a, I guess you become a Resident, then you an Intern. And then, you know, you, you, you work your way as, as a, become a, a Physician or a Surgeon or whatever. There's no one way. And, uh, which is good, but it's a little it's must be a little frustrating too for people.Phil (01:00):Yeah. And I would say that this is, you know, if I go back to like 2000, I've known I wanted to be a writer since I was like 12 years old. Um, but when I go back and think about when I first started seriously studying screenwriting, that was, uh, I was trying to learn how to write a screenplay. I was learning formatting. I was using my software and using like, figuring out to do all that stuff. But the majority of my time was how do I get an agent? How do I break into Hollywood? What do I need to do to work in television or film?Michael (01:28):Yeah. And, and even like, thinking about like, let's see, like, let's see. When I, when I, I wanted to be a TV writer when I watched Cheers and I thought back then, this is how little I knew I was in high school. Well maybe if I start out as a grip, I can work my way up to writer. Like it doesn't even work thatPhil (01:42):Way. You knew what a grip was. At leastMichael (01:44):I didn't, I, I just saw that name. I didn't know what a grip did, but obviously, and it's not even, that's not even working your way up. Like people that's their job and they're happy. They don't wanna be writers that they wanna be grips. That's what they, that's what they want. So it's not like working your way up. It's not like grips below writer. It's like, that's, that's crazy. Um, but, and so, and then some people think, well, I just have to get an agent and an agent will get me work. It's like, no, the agent doesn't wanna have to work for you. The agent wants, basically wants you to do the work yourself and take 10%. That's every agent they want to, you know, they don't wanna have to hustle. They want someone who already is hustling and they can just make money from and like, well, that doesn't sound right. Well, but if you were an agent you'd want the same thing, you don't like, we all, no one wants to work hard. They want, they want something to come easy. So the agent's the same thing. The agent wants to have someone who's just on the cusp of breaking in. So there's a number of ways that people talk about. And I think one way we can talk about, uh, I think a lot of people put a lot of time and energy into our, our screenplay contests.Phil (02:42):Yeah. Screenplay contests, film fell, festival screenplay, contests, and, um, pitch fests are kind of the big three things that I see a lot of people in your group, as well as, you know, other writers I know, and things that were recommended ways to break in. Mm-hmm, we're doing these types of things and you know, I'm sure we're probably gonna get a lot of flack for this, from the people in these industries. If we haven't already at this point with some of the podcast content we've put out. Um, but it does not seem from a professional perspective that these are venues and avenues to get into the industry.Michael (03:13):Yeah. I don't want, I, I talked about, we talked about this a couple days, a couple episodes ago, so I don't want to hit on it too much, but yeah. I mean, it seems, I'll just real fast. Say like if you were, there are these festivals or pitch fest where like they'll take unknowns and let you pitch to Hollywood insiders. So just think about it from the other way around. If you were Hollywood insider and you wanted to make a, have a project put up, you had money to make a movie or a TV show, like why would you go out to a, an unknown, you just put a call out to a Hollywood agent. Hey, I want to get a show off the ground. Uh, send me some writers. Like you wouldn't go, you know, you wouldn't go to a pitch fest, you'd take, you want a professional. Why would you want an in an amateur, someone hasn't done it before.Phil (03:53):Now this is something I'm thinking about that I've not thought about in a while. But one of the best classes I had in film school was actually taught by my buddy rich. He was, he became my friend after. Um, but he had a class that was like the business of film and television. And he would bring in industry professionals who were working in New Mexico at the time or visiting because they were shooting a show in New Mexico. He would bring them in and we'd spend an hour and he would interview them for us. And I thought it was probably one of the most valuable things because you're hearing these people talk about what they look for. And at the end, he would give us an opportunity to pitch. If that person was a producer, if that person was a director and there were a couple times I'd pitch something and afterwards, those people would come up to me and give me their cards and say, I would love to read your script. Right, right. Now, nothing came of them. And five, six years down the road, I understand why I just wasn't ready. The script wasn't good enough to produce. Although the idea was good and enough, good enough to get them interested. The execution wasn't there.Michael (04:54):Yeah. It's all about the execution.Phil (04:55):Yeah. Yeah. So, so I definitely have seen that happen at some lower film as well, where you sit down and you sit with these industry professionals. And I think there's a lot of value in meeting those people, but it's typically those people are independent producers and independent directors and they're out trying to get their stuff made just as much as you are.Michael (05:17):They're hustling as much as you are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they're not gonna, they're not in a position to set you up. Right. Right, right. Then there are other programs that like, let's say like Warner Brothers has like, or Warner Brothers Writing Program, like that's different. Uh, and Disney has like, like fellowships and stuff like that. And those are definitely worth pursuing. And those could be a great entry wayPhil (05:37):To, and you won you and, uh, your writing partner won the Warner Brothers.Michael (05:39):No, we didn't win. We, we got into, we were accepted to the Warner Brothers Writing Program.Phil (05:44):I call that a win person.Michael (05:47):But this is how it was. And this was many, many years ago and things have changed. But basically what you did back then was, uh, you get accepted, which is, which is hard. It's hard to get accepted. And then you have to pay Warner brothers. I think we paid maybe $400 each or something. I'm sure it's a lot more now. And we paid Warner brothers for the right to be accepted to this class to sign. And, and if you were to the top graduate of this class, uh, you would, they would try to place you on one of their shows. And back then Warner Brothers had a ton of sitcoms. Like they had a, they had, they just had like the Friday night block, they had so many shows that it was like, the odds were not terrible. Like they would try to place you on one of their shows. But if you, if they did, because you were graduate of the class, you would be earning the contracts that you'd earn like a third of Writer's Guild minimum. It was something like something really terrible like that. And so here only in Hollywood, do you pay to have a contract to sign a contract that gives you a third of what everyone else is getting paid and, and you're paying for this terrible contract. Like, that's crazy.Phil (06:48):That's fascinating. But I think that speaks to the competitiveness of this industry. Yeah. Because everyone thinks they have a good story idea. Everyone thinks they're a writer and it's so competitive you're literally paying people for opportunities to work for less money. It's insane.Michael (07:03):Yeah. And then we, didn't what happened was that class, you know, there, I remain friends with several people from that, from that, that, that core group of people that were maybe with 30 or 40 of us and only a handful of went on to actually be, become professional writers, everyone else kind of flamed out at one point or the other, uh, cause it is hard to break in. But, um, you know, we were, I, I do remain friends, but they, they chose a golden child. There was a golden child who's chosen pretty early the executives of the program. They, I think they decided that's the golden one. That's the one who will get work. And everyone else is like, well, but, but that, and, and so pretty early on, it was my partner and I could tell that, um, that we were not gonna be the golden people.Michael (07:45):And so we were not chosen when we graduated the class, they didn't try staffing us. It just so happened that our script, uh, man, our, that we had a script that was read, um, by the, by Steve Levitan who was at that time created brand new show called Just Shoot Me. And he read our script because our, his assistant read it and liked it and passed it on to him. And so he hired us. He goes, Hey, yeah, we wanna hire, I wanna hire you, uh, to be on, Just Shoot Me. And then we had to go back to, so we tell the people at Warner Brothers. Yeah. So, you know, our contracts is up and they're like, wait, well, not so fast. Now that, that Steve, Leviton's interested in you let's see if, let's see if we can get you on one of our you know, crappy TV shows and pay you a third. And then, so we basically had to bribe our way out that contract because, uh, you know, suddenly, suddenly they were interested in us, but only because someone else was interested in us, but before, before that they were not interested.Phil (08:37):Yeah, this is like the, the guy girl situation where the girls overlooked until someone else is interested. All of a sudden my eyes are open and I realized I never realized what was right before me this entire time. Except in this case, it's motivated by dollars.Michael (08:49):Yeah. Right. And so we got out of that, that, that was that made, that was history for us, like, okay, great. Now we're gonna Just Shoot Me now. We're basically set us off on our career path. But so that, but even still, like, you know, even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we've got to be on a great show, but for it, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than nonePhil (09:17):At all. I don't see that any different than, you know, I talked about the writers Guild foundation and the golden ticket that they have. Where you get invited to every single event, guaranteed seats. You just RSVP to say, you're gonna be there. They have your name on a seat. You show up front row and you have extra opportunity to interact and network with these people. And I met some amazing people. There was a guy from Canada who was down here, they were shooting the pilot of his show. I sat next to him at an event, talked to him. He asked for my script, he read my script. He sent me notes that were very helpful. That's that's nice. So, so I don't see any difference it's again, it's an investment in yourself. You're just is taking that opportunity. And, and I want to point out here too, because you know, there are a lot of people in your social media and I see the kind of mindset.Phil (10:05):"Well, I don't have any money." "I work as a PA barely get by, etc. etc," look ultimately it's about making sacrifices and sacrifice. You know, the way we define sacrifice from a theological perspective is "to make holy", like you're taking something to make what and you're to make holy holy I'm giving up something because I find this other thing more valuable. It is more sacred that's interest to me. Okay. So if you take the approach. Yeah. So if you're taking the approach of my writing career is sacred to me because it is really why I am here on this planet is to be a writer, then stop drinking Starbucks for a month. Yeah. Seven bucks a day, times 30 days. It's a lot of money, right. Even if it's only once a day, once a week, you're going, yeah. That stuff adds up. There are ways to win in the margins, as we say, in the, in the accounting world. Yeah. Like you can win in the margins and, and save up and you can get a license to Final Draft and learn how to do that. So you can be a Writer's Assistant. You can afford these Golden Ticket opportunities. The, that I think is just you approach. It is you have war chest there's funds there. And it is to be invested to help me pursue my reason for being on the planet. Right.Michael (11:16):Yeah. Yeah. And that, and, and so I've worked with so many inspiring people who couldn't get a break, so they made their own break and that's how they got into Hollywood. And I, I'm gonna list them because they're all incredibly successful people. The first one was Marc Maron, who he had a show IFC and my partner, Sivert and I, we, we ran that show for four years. And Marc is an interesting guy, cuz he was a, he was a comedian and he worked for a while in, in radio. And then I think he got, I dunno if he got fired or he left radio or whatever. But, um, he was basically cold. He couldn't book rooms, he was cold. And so, but he's a creative type and he had a create. And so this is back then, he, there was a thing called podcasting.Michael (12:01):No one knew what podcasts were and it was just a forum for him to talk into a microphone. And God knows if anyone was gonna listen, but he was gonna put on his little show and, and uh, interview people. And he's really, you know, he's good at interviewing. And uh, and that was it. But no one knew how he was gonna monetize, but he just did it because he, you know, he was putting, putting himself out there and eventually that podcast and his is one of the, one of the most successful podcasts out there. It's always in like the top five on apple. Yeah.Phil (12:29):He interviewed Barack Obama.Michael (12:30):Yeah. In his garage, in his garage President, The PresidentPhil (12:34):Garage, The President of the United States came here and went to someone's garage to be on a podcast.Michael (12:39):Yeah. And because that podcast blew up, uh, Marc his, that reignited his comedy career and it got him a chance to get a, a TV show on IFC. That was the one we ran called Maron. And because that show kind of did really well, it got him on Glow. And then because of Glow, he gots all these other opportunities. Yeah. But it's not because he was begging Hollywood, let me in, he's like, screw it. I'm doing, I'm making something worthwhile and I will build an audience that way.Phil (13:06):Well, it summed up as he provided so much value people couldn't ignore it.Michael (13:10):Yeah. Right. And he did right. He just created on his owning, but he made it is creation good. The same, another example, um, were Rhett & Link. So re link where these two guys, we ran their show, which you worked on, uh, uh, they had a show on YouTube Red and it was a sitcom, but they're not com they're not TV writers. So they needed to have, uh, they created this show, but they needed to showrunners to actually write the episodes and kind of do all that work. And so they hired me, my partner to run their show, but who I who's written link. These are just two guys out in, I think from North Carolina, they just like, they were just two, no ones who started a YouTube channel. Um, and that was it. They did. And it, this is before YouTube was really a big thing.Michael (13:51):They just started putting up these shows and they, and they, these their, so they have good chemistry and they just kind of do wacky things. They would sit in a giant vat of oatmeal and do kind of like kind of all little mini contests with each other. And they had good chemistry and that show kind of blew up and became so big on YouTube that YouTube said to them, Hey, you guys are amazing. Uh, we'll give you your own TV show. And, but it wasn't like they weren't be, they didn't be YouTube. They just did their own thing. And Hollywood came to them and there's so many instances of Hollywood instead of people begging, you know, please Hollywood, let me in. They create something so amazing that Hollywood comes to them.Phil (14:30):Yeah. I think you could look at Joe Rogan. I think you could look at most of these people. I mean, you can split it off and it goes back to what we talked about in another podcast about "nicheing down: and finding your niche and owning that. Like, that's really how you break through these things. Those guys were, are advertisers, marketers. Yeah. And they, they leveraged that medium to make fake commercials. They do free commercials for businesses and they're so wild that's how they broke through on YouTube early on.Michael (14:55):Yeah. Because they were doing, no one was paying 'em to do this. No. Right. They just did it on their own. There's a woman over who I discovered at the beginning of the pandemic named Sarah Cooper. And I, I found her on, I think Twitter, but she was probably on all the platforms. And she would just, basically, she was a struggling actor, comedic actor who could not get arrested. She couldn't get anything, any kind of work. And so she'd says, screw it. And so she would basically take these speeches that Trump would make and kind of lip sync it. But wasn't, she was doing more than lip sync and she was adding, uh, her own personal touches and making it funny and doing things in the background and her funny facial expressions really plus it. So it wasn't just like standard, uh, lip syncing. She really, she put a lot of craft into it and because these things were so good, it was like, she was... You know, everyone had a noticer you, you could not watch this and think, wow. Like it was amazing her skill and her talent that she brought to it. And because of that, she, she became so big that Hollywood came her and gave her a Netflix special. And then they gave her, I think it was a show on CBS, a pilot that I didn't think I got to air, but she got all these opportunities, uh, because she just was like, screw it. I'm gonna be the master of my own domain here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it myself. Yeah.Phil (16:06):Yeah. It's seizing the opportunity. The old saying, "fortune favors the bold."Michael (16:10):Yeah. Creating an opportunity. And there's so many people like that. Another woman, Blaire Erskine, I think, I think that's how I pronounce her name. And I discovered her on, uh, on, uh, she would make these kind of funny, uh, videos on Twitter and they, but they were so good that that got discovered. Eventually. I think she's now a, uh, a writer on Kimel like, that's how she broke in. And she was not anyone she's like, screw it. I'm gonna do it myself. But it was good. Content was good.Michael (16:37):Hi guys, Michael Jamen here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, "I heard from a script reader in the industry." And I was like, wait, what?Michael (16:56):Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're for this. I mean, that just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is, is coming along quite nicely. And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers who are new on, on writing staffs, a lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They finally get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not gonna happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff outta your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not gonna happen. Let's just be honest. So go find me, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous rant.Phil (18:02):So let's say that you're a writer and you're not like an on camera talent. You don't necessarily care to put yourself out there. That way. There might be some trepidation, you know, for me, I have, um, uh, an agent and I get auditions all the time and I have to self tape and I get just tremendous anxiety every time I have to be in front of the camera. Yeah. You know, it's just something I'm working through. And I, and I do it and I force myself to do those things because it's something I want to do. Um, but let's say I'm not, let's say that. I'm just, you know, someone who wants to rise up through a traditional route and let's say I'm a PA, right. What kinds of things do you think make a PA stand out to forge that path or create their own path?Michael (18:41):You know, we... we've talked... you're I think an excellent example of this, because you always say yes. When someone has a question or a problem. Yes, I will fix it. I will take care of it. No, relax, it's done already. It's already done relax. And so there are a number of instances I can think of you where, especially when it comes to tech, when it comes to something computer-related, because you would know so much about that. If a writer is having a problem with their comp, like you will show up, I I'll fix that for you. I will take care of, and you'll, I maybe you'll, you'll expand on, on that a little bit more, but, um, it's offering, what else do you offer? So even if it's not writing stuff, you offer these other skills that you have and you offer them freely. And because of that, you endear, you endear yourself to people and people wanna help you in exchange for that.Phil (19:23):Yeah. And I, and I think that it's an important note here, too, that when I do that, it is sincere that I just want to help. I am not doing it. It with any expectation that something is gonna come from it, right. It is that I understand that the best way for me to stick around is to be so valuable that I am invaluable. I, I, right. I, they want me around because I solve so many headaches for them.Michael (19:46):And you weren't charge you weren't you weren't saying, Hey, this is outside of my pay grade. I should get paid extra for this. You're like, no, I will gladly do it.Phil (19:53):Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I view it this way. Like, I'm not a member of a union. There are no union rules dictating what I can and can't do. And so I have opportunity now to over serve people.Michael (20:05):Let me, let me jump in here, Phil, cuz a lot of people don't know how you and I met. So we we've known each other probably since maybe 2010 or so.Phil (20:14):10, 10. Yeah, probably 10 or 11 somewhere there.Michael (20:15):So you were a stranger to me and my wife has a business, an online, uh, she sells, she, she manufactures girls dresses called TwirlyGirl. And so she at the time needed to build a website. She found a company that was gonna build a website. It was kind of a custom made site. It was, we found this place that over pro almost and underdelivered and uh, and Phil was working there. And uh, maybe I don't wanna tell a story wrong, but this is how I remember it is Cynthia, my wife was really kind of distraught was like, well, we paid all this money and you're not giving us what we want. And, and you got at some point, I don't know how you got on the phone.Phil (20:49):You were, I can tell you how so I was in sales at that company at the time. And I kind of saw the writing on the wall that they were gonna downsize my department and I didn't want to be there. What I wanted to do was work with the guy who was teaching all the things I was selling and he ran the other department or the account management department. So I went in and applied for a position there. I got hired and they transitioned me to account management. And your account, your wife's account was the first account I was handed. And they were like, we're giving you this account, do whatever you need to, to make this person happy because the sales rep oversold them to like, to a, a far extent promised way too much. Right. And so that's how I got on the phone with Cynthia.Michael (21:32):And then from what I remember, we were pretty and you're like, listen, I can't, uh, and this, you were overpromised and underdelivered. I'm gonna fix this as best as I can on my own, on my own dime. That's how I remember it. I will do whatever it takes. And because I just feel bad. I wanna make this right for you.Phil (21:51):Yeah. It, it ultimately ended up being some nights and weekends. And you know, I remember one experience where I got a call from your wife and she was in tears because she had accidentally deleted like a fat chunk of your website. Right. And I was actually up at Sundance where I was volunteering, cuz that's how I was in the industry at the time. Right. I just needed to be involved somehow. And I come down off the mountain and I've got this voicemail from Cynthia and I call her back and she's literally in tears cuz she thinks she has just deleted half of her website. Yeah, I remember that. And I was, and I was like, I was like, I promise you, like, we're gonna figure this out. I don't know what we can do, but let me see what we can do. And so, because I took the same approach, at work too where I would go in to the engineering department and I would say, what do you need from me as a sales rep to make your job easier? And then as an account manager, what do you, what do you need me to get you so that you can be as efficient as possible? I called one of the engineers on a weekend and I said, "Hey look, this client has made this mistake. Do we have any old versions?" And he was so ingratiated to me that he got in on his time on a Saturday night at like 10 o'clock at night, found the old version of the site and restored over the weekend.Michael (23:01):For her. Right. And so, and that, and you were a hero and you fixed it right away because of, and so because of that, now my wife felt indebted to you because you had done this great thing, you know, and you made her stop crying in this.Phil (23:13):At the same point, that to be clear to everybody listening, I have no idea who Cynthia is. Right. I have never talked to Michael at this point. Right. I just know here's someone who was sold a bill of goods that they, we couldn't honor. And I needed to do anything I could to feel ethically okay about this.Michael (23:29):Right. And so Cynthia says over the next couple weeks or whatever, she's talking with you and you somehow the conversation turns to what you want. You wanna become a TV or a screenwriter.Phil (23:39):It was actually, she's like, Hey my, my husband, Michael's gonna get on while he waits, um, for his next show to start. And I was like, oh, show. She's like, oh yeah, he's gonna be running Marc Maron's new show. Right. And I was like, okay. And that's when things kind of clicked. And so we ended the call and I Googled her name and an IMDB page shows up and I was like, oh, she was tree flower on angry beavers, which I watched. And she was on Admiral monsters and you was on friends. And then I Googled you. And I was like, oh my gosh, he is a writer. And then that's, that's how I approached it was on the next call. Right?Michael (24:13):Because you, we owed you so much. Cynthia's like, no, oh my husband, he's happy to help you be more than happy to talk to you about TV and screenwriting and all that stuff. And because of that, because of what you had done, you're attitude, which was, let me give, give, give, now we feel indebted to you and we wanna help you back. And that's how you and I, Mel met. And that's how you ultimately broke into the business. Cause I, I wound up getting you, uh, jobs on two of the shows that I was on. Yep. Right? Yep. Yep. And that's how you got it. And it wasn't because you asked for you didn't beg me, you didn't ask me for anything you gave first and I returned. Yeah.Phil (24:47):And, and you know, I'm, I, I am grateful for that. Again, none of that comes from a place of you owe me because I did. Right. Right. Look what I've done for you. It's simply what can I do? And to that same point on that first show where I was a, a PA I was day playing as I've talked about on other episodes. And they ultimately brought me in to be the office PA and I did the same thing. I said, what skill sets do I have to serve the people above me? Like how can I go in this extra time? And I approach it from this perspective, again, like I'm not in a union, there's no one dictating what I can and can't do. And so ultimately I look at it as I have sold 12 hours of my day to these people. Like, I have sold my time. They own me for 12 hours. So what can I do in the next 12 hours to be so productive that they want to keep me around? And I still get my bosses from that first job from Rhett & Link. They call me five years later and they offer me things. Right. Hey, and it's like, Hey, my buddy asked me if I know someone who wants to have this job, no experience to, they're willing to train. I thought of you immediately. Right, right. That kind of stuff. Yeah.Michael (25:52):Doors open that way. Right.Phil (25:53):Yeah. And so, you know, as I thought a lot about this, and we talked about this in your, in your private group, in your course, um, recently, but there's some questions that I think of, and I would encourage anyone in this situation to go through. So what can I do to serve this person? Like whoever it is, like, whether it's, you know, Carrie Clifford, who's a writer on her on Tacoma, FD. Like she loves tuna. She absolutely loves tuna, but she's also very picky about her tuna. And so I literally kept a whiteboard list of her favorite tuna places. So whenever I'd go around to get lunch, if it was her day to decide, I would remind her which place she liked her tuna from. Right, right. Right.Michael (26:28):Little things. Right.Phil (26:29):Yeah. Like one of the writers, like these very specific smoked, um, pistachios from Whole Foods. So I would go outta my way to pick those up for him so that he had something he liked in the room. Yeah. And it's not, it's not kissing butt, but it's not sucking up it's again, how can I serve this person? Right. Yeah. Because.Michael (26:47):Yeah. Yeah. And that comes, that comes and, and that exactly that comes, it helps it's it's in your own best interest to, to do stuff like that. Right. But people don't think of it like that. They just don't.Phil (26:57):They think of it as it seems like a lot of people think of it as how I being taken advantage of,Michael (27:02):Or they think advantage of me, or it's also like, what can you do for me? I, I, I need you to help me, help me break into Hollywood, help me, help me, help me instead of the other way around, which is, let me help you.Phil (27:13):Yeah. And so, to, to answer that question, the next thing I would ask myself is what are my unique skill sets, right? What, what are my hobbies, passions, and, and what do I have? That's valuable to my chain of command, like thinking up the chain of command, whether it's, you know, I'm the writer's PA and I report to the script coordinator, how can I make the script coordinator's job easier? Mm-hmm how can I do this? And, and I think this mindset a really good way to think about this. I had the opportunity to speak at, uh, a business college a couple years ago. And I sat in, in the class, they just said, I did a presentation for some friends of mine, about a business that I was managing at the time. And the professor said, the best thing you can ask in an interview is how can I relieve a burden, this, a burden off of your shoulder?Phil (27:59):What burdens can I relieve from your shoulders? Right. And it seemed a very formal way to think about it. But if you approach everyone above you with that mindset, like, what burdens do you have? Like, how can I help carry some of the weight here? They will gladly give that to you. Yeah. Because it's, and it catches people off guard too, because it's not likely. And so here's just an example of that. So for a wrap gift for season three of Tacoma, um, we got the idea of doing a yearbook. Well, I happened to be on the yearbook staff for two years in my high school. Like, and that I graduated in 2004. Right, so this was 2002, three and four that I was on the staff. I don't remember technically how to use InDesign. I played a little bit with it since, but it came up and I was volunt-told I had to do this.Phil (28:44):And someone was like phone it in, just get a template offline. And there was a very low expectation of this, but what I said is if I'm gonna do this, just let me do it. Right. So I literally, we set up a photo booth. I brought my camera, I took photos of everyone on the staff. We had COVID there monitoring to make sure we were safe. I went through, I photo edited every single one of those. I built the design and the layout inside of InDesign. And I worked with, um, Cindy, our, our 2nd AD, who was taking photos of everyone, all season. And we built an actual hardbound yearbook that we gave to every member of the staff. Right. And it was something that, you know, the people who were in charge of building these gifts, like the production supervisor, the, you, the, the UPM the, uh, Production Office Coordinator, they were grateful that I went the extra mile because it took something and leveled it up. Yeah. Right. But furthermore, and I think this is another key aspect. I went and did extra work to find a place where I could go and save them money, which enabled them to give these really cool heated jackets to everybody. Right. If figure out one of those. Right. I did get one of those. We had the ability to upgrade that, to like a jacket with a heater in it, because I was able to save like three grand on the printing cost by doing this extra stuff.Michael (29:58):Right. Right. I didn't know that.Phil (29:59):Just little, little, little things that, you know, that you've, you know, acquired throughout life. They go a long way. Like I was listening to another podcast and there was another writer who said, she went in into an interview and she had done her research on IMDB. And she's like, oh, I didn't know you wrote on this show. I really liked that. And the writer's like, well, I actually didn't write on that. That's a mistake on my IMDB and writer was embarrassed. And then afterwards, she went and using her knowledge of IMDB pro fixed their listings, and then emailed them and say, Hey, I just wanna apologize for my mistake. I just wanna let you know, I took care of it for you. Right. And she got hired on that show because she was willing to go that extra mile. Yeah. And she solved a problem for her boss that wasn't even her boss yet. Yeah.Michael (30:42):Yeah. Isn't that great. Yeah. Yeah. People don't think like, most people don't think that way, but if you can get into that mindset, like doors will open.Phil (30:50):Yeah. And, and like another example, it's like little things. Like one of the Whowrunners came to me and said, Hey, I need to get 13 binders, three, three ring binders, one for every episode. And they're like, and I don't like the D ring, give me a, a full ring. I wrote down my notes. And then I went out and got them. And I, I didn't know what color he wanted. And so I came back and I said, uh, what color do you want? And he said, um, I think, I think he actually wanted a big binder at this time for just, uh, the notes. Um, later I, I got, I got a lot of binders. He really likes binders and highlighters. Yeah. But bold me, like I got these two binders and I was like, I didn't know which color he would want. I got three, I got two black and one white.Phil (31:30):And he came out and said, which color do you want? He said, uh, I don't know, black. And I had it ready. I pulled it out. And I already had all the separators, had everything ready and I gave it to him. And I remember he walked into the kitchen where you were, and I overheard him saying, "man, that guy is really good. Like he got it." And then you sang my praises to him. Yeah. But it like a little thing just, which is a stark difference in the previous PA who told him he couldn't have sushi whenMichael (31:53):He wanted it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just do it with a smile and do just yeah. And all these doors open. Exactly. And so, yeah, I think it's a wonderful, that's not just a lesson for, or Hollywood. It's just a lesson for life, I think. Right.Phil (32:06):Yeah. And then to your point, which you talked to a lot of people about, it's like be nice to everyone because everyone knows everybody is a small town. Yeah. These things get around.Michael (32:15):Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right.Phil (32:19):So, well, any other thoughts about like path to break into Hollywood? I know you've got a lot of content or social media. You talk about like mail room, which, you know, people accuse of being like an eighties strategy, like yeah. But still works. I know friends, who've grown through the mail room to become agents. Yeah.Michael (32:33):And so like, so I, right. So I post, I try to post, I think I do so far daily posts on Instagram @MichaelJaminWriter. And I post about Hollywood, had a break into Hollywood. And so I did one post about, you know, working in a mail room and an agency and how that's a great way to break in. And then I got all these like trolls, I don't know if their trolls or just jerks or whatever. There's like, man, you know, you ever hear a email dude? I was like, well, how do parcels come? When do parcels come through email? Or do they get delivered somewhere? You know? So just jerks, just trying to like, I, I don't know, like, okay, with that attitude, with that attitude, you're never gonna get anywhere in life.Phil (33:09):Well, you've already, you've given up. Yeah. Right. If you're always looking at the negative you've you've given up on, you're not gonna make it. Yeah. Cause you've already decided you are right.Michael (33:18):You've already. Exactly. And it's, it's, self-fulfilling prophecy. There's one woman. I, I had to post and she posted about how Hollywood is an awful place. And uh, people were, she was a PA I, I mentioned it was this post about how to get a job as a PA. And she's like, uh, yeah, P I was a PA don't listen, this guy, I was a PA and people were mean to me. And they were obnoxious and rude and like, listen, I don't know what show she was on. Maybe they were, uh, maybe they were mean and rude to her. Okay. So go get a job at Starbucks. That's a job. That's easier to get. You'll make the same amount of money. And I guarantee you, people will be mean and rude to you. The customers will be mean and rude to you either way it's gonna happen.Michael (33:53):So why don't you do it in the area that you want advance in, in Hollywood? Like, what is your problem? Like, okay. People are mean that's life, man. So what do you wanna get your goal? And someone else had another comment and she was, you know, wow. All that. I think it was a woman, all that just to be for all that work and hard effort, just to be a PA, he was like, no, it's not to become a PA it's to become a writer or a producer or a director like PA this is just a temporary job. Yeah. It's all this work for this temporary stepping stone.Phil (34:21):Yeah. You know, I had a really good conversation because I've been a PA for six years or so now at this point, and I'm 30 gonna be 36 this year. And I have a wife and kids and, you know, it's, it, it's a grind and it can feel a little heavy.Michael (34:34):But in fairness, you you've had opportunities to do other production work, but you just don't want it cuz you want to stay in the screenwriting path.Phil (34:41):Correct. I have turned down post-production coordinator jobs. I've, I've done, I've done some other stuff. I was a post PA on a, on a film, like I've done other things. Right. But ultimately the, the niche I've carved for myself is writer. Cuz that's what I want to do. Right. And if other doors open beyond that, after producing directing and great, but right now my purpose plan is to be a writer. Right. Right. So, um, I lost my train of thought.Michael (35:09):Because I Interrupted you. But the point is that we were talking about how it's just, it's just a stepping stone and you've been doing PA for a while, but it's not because you have to it's cuz you want right. So,Phil (35:16):So I remember now, so I kind of bro, I kind of privately one night, we're shooting super late. Um, it's uh, Friday, we're going into a "Fraturday", which means you're shooting into Saturday morning. So your Friday, Saturday blend. Um, and I was like talking to one of my bosses about, you know, yeah man, I'd really love to get that next step. I just don't know how to approach it. And they said, well, what you have to understand is that people see hard work and they see loyalty and they see effort and they reward that and she said, it's important to know that. Yeah. You're not asking for things, but there will be a time when you get an ask. And when that ask comes, make sure you ask for it. You have to put yourself out there. Yeah. But in general you get the ask because you're not asking.Phil (35:55):And I was like, oh, like, and, and it may not seem like it, but people reward hard workers because, and, and I think the word she said is we recognize what we have with you. And I was like, oh, that's a very kind compliment. But I think it goes back to this mindset of how can I cert and I'm by far not the only person, the production secretary on our show and the other office PA the exact same attitude to the point that our boss on our last day, when we wrapped and we were closing up the stages, she said, I would be happy to work with you any other time on any other show, if you, any of you need jobs, please let me know. Yeah. That's great. Cause, cause we all had that attitude. Yeah. And it made it easier because we were all serving each other too. Yeah. Yeah, it does. So good. We talked a lot. We got a lot of stuff in this. This was an informative episode. I thinkPhil (36:56):This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something no one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael & Phil tackle the subject of writer's rooms, how writer's staffs are organized, and the responsibilities of individual writers at each level. Learn more about the different jobs in a TV writer's room and some interesting ways to break-in.Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJim Serpico, EP of Maron - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0785351/Tom Sellitti, EP of Maron - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0783418/Javier Grillo-Marxuach Website - http://okbjgm.weebly.com/Netflix in Albuquerque - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/why-hollywood-is-moving-to-albuquerque“Shit My Dad Says” Twitter Show - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1612578/Michael: (00:00)The next step below, that would be writer's PA and that stands for a production assistant. So the writer's PA usually, usually writers are veal. We are kept hostage in a, in a writer's room like for hours and hours and hours, you don't leave, but they bring you lunch. And when they bring you lunch, that person who is bringing you lunch is a hero because they're feeding you and you, you know, so that the writer's PAs is usually the one who goes out. On a running brings you lunch.Michael: (00:32)Welcome back everybody today. We're going to be talking about various creative jobs in Hollywood, and we're going to probably start, I think, with, with the writer's room. Cause there's a lot of myths that we're going to expose. I think it's a lot of people have misconceptions about how writer's rooms, um, you know, how they actually work. I fell.Phil: (00:48)Yeah. And, and, you know, to, to your point, I think there are a lot of people who don't even understand things like what a showrunner is or what the difference between a co-producer, producer, a story editor, all these different writer's terms. I once had a friend mentioned to me, she's a nurse. She wanted to be an actress. And she's just like, you know, when you watch a TV show and you see all the credits that they're getting that say producer, they're all just writers. And she said it like, it was condescending a little, this is like just writers, like, Okay.Michael: (01:13)She's right, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, so a showrunner is the boss and a TV show in a movie. Uh, the director is Boston. A TV show that the showrunner is the boss. The showrunner is the head writer. Usually the showrunners, the creator of the show, the person who sold it, but not always and often not always the case. So, um, a number of times my partner would have been showrunners and we didn't create that show where the hired hands, because we have experience and were brought on to run the writer's room and the writer's room can consist of, we've been on show, usually around eight writers, let's say, but we've been on shows where we've had as few as four writers. And when we were on King of the Hill, that was Maron. When we were on King of the Hill, uh, there were about 20, at least 20 writers it was a huge writing staff.Michael: (02:00)So there's, there's that. And then all the writers in the writer's room compose the writing staff, but there certainly there are different levels to, to writers. So the showrunner again is the boss, the showrunner decides what kind of stories to tell and how to tell them. And some people, I guess I can maybe I'll get to the misconceptions first. Some people think that well, so where do you get these ideas from? Does the network just tell you what stories they want to have? And no, cause there's no one at the network who knows how to do that. If they did, they'd be writers there, that's not their job. Right. They, you know, so we pitched them our ideas, but we come up with the ideas. We say, we're going to do an episode about X, blah, blah, blah. And then that works. Does that sounds good?Michael: (02:39)Go ahead and do it. And so we have to come up with the ideas and usually it's the writing staff that will pitch the ideas to the showrunner and the showrunner and say, okay, I like that one. Let's talk about that one. Let's turn that. Let's see if we can turn that into an episode or I like the beginning, but not the middle, you know? And so let's stretch it out. Is that that's how do we break that into a story? And another myth I heard all the time, well, years ago it was like, oh, what character? I was around. It came when I was on King of the Hill. They'd say, what character do you write for as if like every writer was responsible for one character's voice. And there are 20 of us and king of the hill. I don't know how many, there were like five characters or whatever, or maybe more there's cause there's periphery characters.Michael: (03:16)But so no. And I used to tell people, I used to write for the dog, the dog, obviously didn't talk or have any lines, but that's when I said, but you write for all the cat, your job is to you get an episode and you write all the characters and that episode. And that's how, that's how it works. And they're so the staff, the writing staff is composed of one or two showrunners usually. And then there's certain levels of writers. So the newest baby writer is called a staff writer. That's the person with no experience. They just broke into Hollywood. Usually, usually they're a staff writer then above them. They, they say they work for a year. They get a promotion. Now they're called a Story Editor. And you'll see that at the end of the credits off. And you see the story that, or it gets a credit.Phil: (03:57)Let me ask this question, because this is something that came up on another podcast. We did, you made a reference that all of these titles that you're probably going to go through right here, that the next year. So are you a staff writer, your first year writing and then you bump a story editor usually, or you're so bad that you could stay staff writer. Is that a chance or do you just lose your job at that point?Michael: (04:20)Sometimes? Yeah. You could lose your job if you're no good. Sometimes you'll be a staff writer on the on one year and then the show gets canceled and then you get another job in a different show and they make you repeat your staff writer. They say, yeah, you're not getting the bump because we don't have a budget.Phil: (04:34)The bump budget-based. I imagine usually.Michael: (04:37)Yeah. I don't know if too many people who had a repeat staff it's like repeating your first year of college, I guess. Right.Phil: (04:45)I got held back in preschool by the way. SoMichael: (04:47)Yeah. Well, I can tell it's obvious when I talk to you.Phil: (04:49)Yeah. The adults don't set your kids in preschool in the middle of the year, guys. They just look stupid when all their friends move on.Michael: (04:55)For the rest of the let's talk about it. Um, so then after a story editor to become Executive Story Editor back in the sixties, the Executive Story Editor, or was they, that was the boss I'm executive story editor mean that was basically being called the showrunner, but these titles have changed over the years. And so executive story at a restorator is at one point it was like the most important person. And now it's one of the least important people on the staff. Um, I remember when I, well, I remember when I had, I had a writing teacher and he was, he like, he wrote on, uh, uh, Get Smart and Andy Griffith Show and all those great shows and Twilight Zone, the original Twilight Zone and all that. And he used to say that you just need to, you got to impress the story. It, the story editors that want to makes all the decisions. And, and this is back in like, you know, the nineties, I was like my old man, what are you talking about? The Story Editors at title has long since changed.Phil: (05:47)Uh, so I was going to ask, so my understanding here is that this changed because cause you're about to get into the producer titles, right? Yeah. So my understanding is that this changed because the story, the writing credit positions pay specific portions of their money into the WGA funds, but the producorial fees you get do not.Michael: (06:10)Yeah separately.Phil: (06:10)And the benefit to the, to the network and the studios is they don't have to match percentages of those funds, to the Writers Guild stuff .Michael: (06:19)To your health and pension. Right. It's separate. Exactly.Phil: (06:23)Where it changes, like how do we get these people and entice them to do this thing with us without having all the other expensive paying percentages of their, their fees?Michael: (06:31)Yeah. We'll give them a fancy title. Yeah. That'll tide them over there. Stupid. Um, so yeah, so there's executives. So is it okay to repeat Staff Writer, Story Editor, Executive Story Editor, then you get Co-Producer and then you become Producer and then you're like, wow, Producer, it's really just another level for a writer. Then you get, uh, after Producer becomes Supervising Producer, then Co-Executive Producer, which often means the number two, the number two writer, the like the number two in command and then Executive Producer. And so in sometimes there's also another title of Consulting Producer, which is just a fancy way of paying you even less money. Got it. So, but those are all just writers and there's very, you know, the producer aspect of those jobs are very limited. So when you're executive producer, you have, you do have many other Producer titles, like your responsibilities, you'll be responsible for casting or post-production... Supervising post production, or maybe editing stuff like that. The Co-Executive Producer doesn't often do those things, but is capable of doing those things.Phil: (07:33)And that's what you currently are on the show.Michael: (07:36)On Tacoma FD I'm a Co-Executive Producer. Right. But, but you know, in the past I've been Executive Producer on other shows. So, uh, you know, the difference in money there's a lot its not that much. Well, the Co-Exec... Co-Executive Producer that gets a good salary without all the stress of being executive producer. It's a good job to it's really the best job to have is a co-executive producer because he made good money, but you don't have all the stress of the boss.Phil: (07:59)Got it. So that's what to aspire to is not be the showrunner, but just be a co you'd be.Michael: (08:03)I remember years ago when I was, you know, thinking before I became a Showrunner, I was like, man, if I were a show runner, I'd do things different, do things better. And then, you know, cause you always think your bosses know what you're doing, they're they're doing. And then, then you become the boss and you're like, Ugh, I just wish I was a Co-Executive Producer.Phil: (08:21)Yeah. You always wish you had the less responsibility, the more, you know, the more, you know, you don't know. Right? Yeah.Michael: (08:26)So, but then, you know, those jobs basically at my level, like those, the two jobs I get, you need to be the boss or the second in command. So there's, I have to take whatever, whatever comes.Phil: (08:36)Now there is another executive producer on the show and that's typically the, basically the guy in charge of, or the woman, the person in charge of making sure that the show is happening from an actual producorial perspective. Right? So not always. So the production. So for example, to come at di we had a production company running things and the owner of that company had the title of EP as well. And that shows up in the credits and that person can be not a writer.Michael: (09:03)And I believe, I believe one of the, uh, managers, David Miner, I believe he's also executive toPhil: (09:09)Both of, both of the guys managers are on our show. They have EP credits because they brought the show to the network and said, we think you should buy this show.Michael: (09:19)Yeah. They help make it. They help sell it. They help make it possible. Yeah. But on other shows, I've worked on this. There's really only there aren't too many co uh, Executive Producers is their Showrunner and maybe no other executive producers, or maybe there's an actor who is so powerful to help got the show me, they might be Executive Producer or maybe often if the show is, is sold through a pod, you have a production company, then they'll get, you know, like you're saying, they'll have a Executive Producer title. Uh, yeah. So some actually that's not really no. And I say that now that I think about it. Yeah. I've always, I've been on other shows where there, there are other executive not they're called non-writing Executive Producers. So when I was on Maron, for example, uh, Jim Serpico, Tom Silletti, they were non-writing Executive Producers. They helps sell the show and their creative involvement in the show. It really depends on what their, what they have time for. Sometimes they're very involved in, sometimes they're not very involved at all.Phil: (10:12)Yeah. Okay. So that's an interesting note. I think, so those people have the same way now from an Office PA perspective. So during production, we still saved those people parking spots, and we understood who they were. And we made sure that they were included on every single email, every single notice that went out, anything that involved creative decisions, they were invited to all meetings. And it was always an understanding they could show up at any time, but also an expectation that they probably weren't going to show up. And so it's an interesting thing like, or, you know, one season of a show, I worked on the, one of these non writing Executive Producers showed up and our Office Production Coordinator didn't know who they were and it, but the secretary did luckily. So they were able to save that situation or it probably would have been a really, you know, egg on the face situation.Michael: (11:00)Yeah. Because sometimes they don't show up. Right. The homes that parking spot is empty all year. Yeah. But you know, sometimes they do show up cause they, yeah. So those are all, those are all creative jobs. So when you see at the front of a TV show, all those producers, like what are all these producers? Most of them are writers. And then some producers, there was always a couple of, there's a Line Producer, he'll get he, or she will get a producer title. And they're in charge of kind of, uh, they're in charge of the, the money and the budget. If, for example, the show runner says, Hey, I want to shoot a show, um, in a submarine. And like, I bet, you know, how do you make that happen? Well, the line producer, their job is to figure out how to make that happen to either rent a submarine or get a soundstage that looks like a submarine or tell you what, that's just too expensive. You can have to shoot it in a rowboat.Phil: (11:43)Right. Right. Yeah. And then, so there's a Line Producer and then a Unit Production Manager or UPM. Yeah. But there are different jobs or they are, or they're at the same job because I see it both ways I've seen it separated or they're the same person does both. Yeah,Michael: (11:57)Yeah. Yeah. And I, yeah, that's exactly right. And I don't, I don't really know what the difference is. Job responses, uh, job responsibilities are between the two, because on the shows that I've worked on, they've mostly been the same person. So.Phil: (12:09)Yeah. It's, I think it's just a level of authority and responsibility. So UPM is typically making the decisions to make sure everything happens in the line producer. My understanding is basically in charge of the budget and making sure you're not blowing the budget every episode and you can get to the end of the road and they're like your accountant almost, I guess you could say as the showrunner. Right.Michael: (12:27)Um, but we still have accountants.Phil: (12:28)We all see cameras like a CPA. Like they're like the CPA who says, we're a business manager, Hey, you need to cut your expenses here because yeah. This thing coming down the road.Michael: (12:36)Yeah. Often they'll negotiate, they'll, there'll be dealing with the unions and they, they, uh, they make sure that the show, they make sure that the physical production of the show actually happens. Yeah.Phil: (12:46)So, so, so this brings up what we're discussing here might be considered "above the line". Yeah. Goes right. Yeah. And, um, you know, we recently had an interesting conversation with someone who did not like the title above the line and alsoMichael: (12:59)A derogatoryPhil: (13:01)It's like, you know, the union negotiates those things. So your union is responsible for earning you those credits and signing what goes where yeah,Michael: (13:10)I think it's, I think actually it's just like where you appear on the call sheet. It's like, are you above this line or below this line? That was my understanding. It's like, and it's just, it's just the line, relax everybody you're on. It doesn't mean, you know, you deserve to die, you know? Right. It's just an, it's a, basically an accounting formality. Yeah. Right.Phil: (13:29)Yeah. Okay. But, but you do not have control over who does that? Just to clarify, because this person seemed to think that you, in your role as an Executive Producer, Showrunner have the ability to dictate through your use of language who gets called what? So people aren't offended.Michael: (13:44)Yeah, yeah. No, I, I walked into, you know, it's so strange. It's like I walk into these terminologies, these, these, the terminologies were decided before me. And, uh, and somebody has someone thought that they were just very offended by that. And I'm perpetuating some kind of, I don't know, egregious, uh, you know, offense in Hollywood.Phil: (14:01)And not to get like super into the weeds on this subject. But I do know, um, this season on Tacoma FD, either production company did require us to use gender neutral terminology for things. So this is like a term for like the Best Boy or Best Boy Grip or Best Boy Lighting. And now that's like Key Lighting Person and it's like a term, um, different things instead of form. And it was for a person. And so I understand those things, but when we're talking about literally anyone below the line is garbage and trash and we stop and use it, that's not exactly what's going on in this space.Michael: (14:31)No, those people are kind of important because they're writers the above the line. People like maybe we were the dreamers that, Hey, what if, and the other people, the ones who are doing it, so you can't just have dreamers on set. They don't that nothing will get done.Phil: (14:43)Yeah. Right. It's like, uh, I, I did hear an example on another show I worked on where they're like, they want us to have 50 people with the exact same haircut sitting in a restaurant. It's like, you don't understand the complexity of, of casting that the complexity of finding those people, the hair and makeup, the costs for extra pay. Like we got you 10 of those people not 50. Right, right. Yeah. So, so those are all the, so those are all the jobs that are just the ones that you've talked about. And those that basically to get into Hollywood, you have to start as a Staff Writer.Michael: (15:16)Hi guys, it's Michael Jamin. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you, people are getting bad advice on the internet. Many, you want to break into the industry as writers or directors or actors, and some of you are paying for this advice on the internet. It's just bad. And as a working TV writer and showrunner, this burns my butt. So my goal is to flush a lot of this bad stuff out of your head and replace it with stuff that's actually going to help you. So I post daily tips on social media, go follow me @MichaelJaminWriter. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and TikToK. And let's be honest, if you don't have time, like just two minutes a day towards improving your craft, it's not going to happen. So go make it happen for you @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Now back to my previous rant.Michael: (16:02)And yes, then how do you start as a staff writer? There are entry-level jobs. So there's no assistant writers. People often say, well, I want to be an assistant writer on your show. It's like that doesn't exist. There are Writers Assistance. And those are the people who will sit in the writer's room and they sit at the keyboard and they literally, they usually either take notes or they type, as we, as the words go up on the, on a monitor, we're watching a screen. And so they actually type the script as we pitch lines. And so that's, um, it's, it's a kind of a high pressure job because you have to know the pro word processing program, like the back of your hand, but also you have to be a good speller because if you are not, people will make fun of you. And you know, everyone's staring at you while you do your job and like busting your balls.Michael: (16:46)Uh, you know, so it's a, it's a high pressure job. You have to have a good sense of humor about it. And so, but it's a great job to have because once you're in the writer's room and like, you will learn more as a Writer's Assistant than you would the tenures in film school because you're watching professional writers do their craft. So it's a wonderful, it's a great learning experience. And how do you get a Writer's Assistant job? Well, the next step below that would be Writers PA and essentially a production assistant. So the Writer's PA usually, usually writers are veal. We are kept hostage in a, in a writer's room like for hours and hours and hours. And you don't leave, but they bring you lunch. And when they bring you lunch, that person who's bringing you lunch is a hero because they're feeding you and you, you know, so that the Writer's PA is usually the one who goes out on a run and brings you lunch. This is before COVID of course, I don't know what goes, no one brings me food anymore. No one gives within six feet of me.Phil: (17:39)That's right. That's not in your family. Right.Michael: (17:43)Keep an arm, social distance kids. Um, so that's, Writer's PA and then kind of not, I wouldn't say below it, but Jason too, it would be regular PA or Set PA, which that PA works on the set. Another job would be Office PA. And that PA you know, the set PA might run errands, or it might block off the set when like, you know, when they're shooting an episode, the set PA will be on the perimeter. And you had, I'm telling you, you had this job for a while. And they're the ones who are, let's say you're shooting on New York City street. They're on the perimeter stopping traffic and people, you can't walk here. We're shooting.Phil: (18:14)Yeah, no. And let me point out here, the, our Locations Guy, when I said that I was locking down traffic interjecting and said, you are not allowed to do that. That is illegal. The police lock down traffic. You were there to wrangle pedestrians.Michael: (18:29)Whoa,Phil: (18:29)Interesting. Right. Because we do not have the legal authority to stop traffic, but on a closed set, that was my first day of PA work was literally standing in the hot sun out in the middle of Southern California telling cars when to drive into the scene. Yeah. But it was a closed set. And I was, I was literally doing that. And youMichael: (18:50)Had, you had your piece in a headsetsPhil: (18:54)[inaudible] or there, they literally call it background and you tell them to move. Yeah. Right. YouMichael: (18:58)Tell them that would be a set. That's one of the responsibilities of a set PA.Phil: (19:02)Yeah. They're responsible for getting information to everyone. Um, locking down, set for a sound. It's another very common thing where you literally post up in a doorway and you hold stop people from coming in and out because they're shooting that direction and you don't want to walk through set, like one of the first days of shooting of season two of Tacoma FD I walked onto a set and I looked right at the set PA and she didn't say anything. So I walked toward her and ended up walking right through the shot, like, yeah. And they showed it to me. They showed me a post me Sasquatching and through the background of the firehouse.Michael: (19:36)And that's the job of the PA supposed to stop. You I've walked on sets before to have my own show where I was Executive Producer. And I guess some PA was too nervous to tell me not to walk on set. And I walk into the shot and I ruined the shot. And I'm like, dude, you got to tell me not to walk into the shot. It's okay. You can tell, don't be afraid of me. Tell me I'm not, not tell me not to ruin the shot.Phil: (19:53)Didn't you tell me that there was a, uh, you had to spend like a significant amount of money and post cutting a PA out of the background and standing behind a tree or something.Michael: (20:01)Um, I'm sure that, yeah. I'm not sure if the PA, but I remember sometimes you have to do that we're or you cut a reflection. Sometimes you see a PA or something, or somebody is a reflection in a window. You have to take that out. Yeah. Yeah.Phil: (20:14)Um, so, so I've had most of these PA jobs, so that's a Set PA and then Office PA, you're the one making copies. You're the one making the signs. You're laminating things and go, go runs. You're coming on, runs and picking up stuff. You're going to Home Depot to buy specific daylight, luminescent, light bulbs for the Makeup Department, because they need specific lights in the trailer. You're getting water, you're moving things around set. You're going out on a run to Burbank to pick up Audio Equipment for the audio team. Cause they always need something. Yeah. You know,Michael: (20:48)It's interest. Cause I posted a little bit about that on social media. I do like these little clips and uh, and, and someone said, you have to, you, you know, I said, it's an entry-level job. It's not too hard to get. And someone said, you don't know what you're talking about. You have to have a Harvard Degree. You have to degree a degree from Harvard or an MBA. And like you already your mind, like, I can tell you need a car.Phil: (21:07)That's it. You need a car and you need to breathe. Right.Michael: (21:11)The pulse, if you, if you're dead, you're going to have, you're going to struggle. But if you have a pulse, you be okay. It's like, I don't really care. I don't need to know that you have a degree from Harvard from what do I care? I want to know. Can you go on a run?Phil: (21:23)Do you think that's people who just assume it's all an old boys club and you ha it's about who, you know, and it's not about like, like, oh, Harvard Alumni will hire Harvard alumni. Is it that kind of thing? Or do you think they actually think you have to be like a Rhode Scholar to be a PA?Michael: (21:38)No, I think there's, you know, breaking into Hollywood is hard and it's, you know, that first job, the hardest one is that first job to get in. And so you have to hustle and you really have to like, you know, send out flight. You kind of have to really be in contact with people. And you've got a nudge way in and I, and it takes a lot of work. And I think people would much rather say, well, they're not hiring people like me. Cause you know, there's an excuse as opposed to, that's not true at all. It's like, you just have to do your end to the part. You have to hustle to get the job. Yeah. You know, it's just, there's so many excuses. And like, I always say like, you can, you can have results or you can have excuses, uh, or you can have excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both. Right. And people like to have excuses. It just makes them feel better for not trying or not trying hard enough.Phil: (22:22)Now, now I've been on a other side of things. I think my first PA job, um, you gave my resume to a show that you were running and I didn't get that job. And I didn't get that job because your writing partner also referred someone and that person had experience. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I didn't get that job, but because I did so well in the interview when they needed a day player to come out and just lock down set for a day, they called me and said, Hey, it's one day job. You want to come up and sit? Absolutely. What time? Where should I be? I showed up early. I was there. I ran around set the whole day. And it just happened to be that that day, the Office PA was called back in to his Fox show and he had to leave. And so the UPM who was on set with me, watching me work said, you should consider this guy. He seems good. And I got offered a full-time position as the office PA because of that. And so it was thatMichael: (23:16)Is that luck. Was that, was that, did you get lucky or did you make your own luck?Phil: (23:20)I think that there's a, there's a level of luck, you know, there's this old saying that luck is where opportunity meets preparation. Right? Right. And so the opportunity came because I knew you and you were able to give them my resume, but I didn't get that job. Someone else got that job. And they had three other people who you and your running partner did not recommend who also got jobs because they had, and that's just the racket. But because I was willing to show up and I was prepared and I understood what was expected of me as a PA, I was able to prove myself on that, on that day, the chance I go, yeah.Michael: (23:57)We had a PA on Tacoma, FD, we talk about, I don't mention his name, but one day one of the writers asked him to get a, for like Tylenol or Advil or something to go to drugstore. And he kind of said, no, he was busy.Phil: (24:10)So we should talk about that too. So, so the Writer's PA job is not just lunch. Like you're responsible for whatever the writers need. Like the Showrunners asking you for binders, but not just not binders, but D clipped binders, full ring binders, because they don't like the way the dividers are. And it's my job to go get that for them. I'm also supposed to stock the fridge. I'm supposed to have first aid available. I'm supposed to clean up after them. And so to have a Writer's PA tell a Writer I'm busy. I can't get you medicine because you have a headache. But I think it was worse than that. I think it was. Do you know if we have any, I think they have some upstairs. Can you go get some, I don't think I can do that.Michael: (24:48)Yeah. And man and we all laugh when he said no and you know, like men just falls in this guy. Yeah. And then he didn't last much longer than that.Phil: (24:59)Well, he did some other stuff I heard too. I, I ended up replacing that guy that season. Um, but he did some other stuff too. Like you told me that he would just like stare through the glass at you guys while you were watching writing stuff.Michael: (25:12)Yeah. He just, I had a weird thing where like, he just didn't, he'd come into the room, the Writers' Room and he just wouldn't know when to leave. And he was like, you know, and it got awkward. It's like, Hey, did you got to leave? Now? We got to work. And he would just kind of stand there. I dunno, gabbing or, you know, watching and was just so uncomfortable. And the writer, we, we thought it was hilarious. Like this guy he's something else.Phil: (25:33)Well, he hit the nail in the coffin. And I think this is like a big note of what not to do is one of our Showrunners who is an actor on the show is like on Nutrisystem and like cutting weight to get camera ready, because he's going to be, you know, he's effectively starving himself to look good on camera. And he's entitled to lunch more than anybody else on the show. Cause it's his show. And one day he comes in, he's like today I want sushi. And he said, uh, we don't have the budget for that. Right. And he said, I don't care. I'll approve it. Cause he's show is responsible for the budget. And he goes, I've already put in the other lunch order.Michael: (26:11)Yeah. That's what it was about. And that, you know, and afterwards we were busting that actor's because you know, I, you're not in charge.Phil: (26:24)Yeah. You'll keep your job if you, uh, if you deny your showrunner on her food, the one time he asks for it and the whole season.Michael: (26:32)So that guy didn't, he didn't last very long. But, uh, yeah, your, your job is to say yes, not to say no as a PA. Right.Phil: (26:39)Well, yeah. Well, interesting stuff. And you know, ultimately like I got that job and I think to your note, one of the first things you told me forever ago is if, you know, if you want to make it in Hollywood, you have to be in LA because that's where the jobs are. And I think there's a caveat because this is a question I've seen in a lot of your social media people say, do you have to live in Hollywood to make it in film? And the answer is depends on what you want to do. Right? So for example, I went to film school in New Mexico and New Mexico is a smaller market that is expanding ridiculously right now. I think Netflix is investing a billion dollars in New Mexico and infrastructure expanding stages. And they bought the biggest stages there where they shoot Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and all that stuff.Phil: (27:17)And so if you want to work in camera or you want to work in, you know, an office position or a locations or a costume position, my opinion is those exterior markets, Utah, where you have Park City studios, you have, um, Santa Fe or Albuquerque where you have a fast growing film industry. You have Louisiana, you have Georgia. Those markets is really easy to progress and move up the ranks in those craftsmen positions. Right. Right. But when we talk about writing, I really think the answer is you do have to be an LA because this is where the writing happens.Michael: (27:52)Yeah. All the writing, they even Handmaids Tale. They shoot that. I think in Toronto, they sh they write it here. Um, I'm pretty sure Breaking Bad. They, they, theyPhil: (27:59)Wrote here in LA, in LA shot, in New Mexico.Michael: (28:02)Right. So if you want to be a writer, then you want to be a writer's assistant and you want to be a PA here in LA. So you can come up this way. But in someone, some of them had sent me, um, a question that maybe was on Tik TOK or something. And she was, she seemed very lovely. And by, so I still let her have it. She was, um, she was like, uh, I live in the UK and I would gladly, I really want to break into the business. And I would gladly come here to LA. If someone could guarantee me a job. And I was like, you know, there's no guarantee, you know, no, one's gonna guarantee you a job. Uh, first of all, there are no guarantees in Hollywood. Right. You know, you're not, um, you know, you're, you know, you're not Brad Pitt Brad Pitt.Michael: (28:42)He's guaranteed to get a dressing room and, and a driver. You're a PA you have no guarantees. If you came here and got a job, let's say the show would get canceled after 10, at 10 weeks, or you get fired or whatever, you're still out of a job. Now you're out of a job. And so you're still screwed. You have to come here first. And when they're hiring for those positions, that basically for any kind of PA position, the job is like you interviewed today to start tomorrow. And so you can't fly here. We're not going to get, I'm going to give you a week to fly here. And then a week to find a place then a week to get a car because you need a car. It's like, you know, no, you have to be here for those opportunities. There's no, there's no guarantees.Phil: (29:22)Yeah. That's what you told me. You said you have to be here because when they want to hire someone, they need you today. Right? Yeah.Michael: (29:27)And I, I called you. I remember when that opportunity came up on our current show, I said, Phil, can you, can you be here this afternoon? They're hiring you. You have to be here today.Phil: (29:35)Yeah. I think the exact text was, um, we need a PA the job sucks. It's low pay. Do you want it? And I said, I'll do that job for free. Right. And your response. Good answer. That's how I got my first paid job. Hold on. And they're like an hour or so later the Script Coordinator. Um, so basically shot me a text said, Hey, man, uh, it looks like, you know, we'd like to use you on the show. I said, do you want my resume? He's like, no, Michael Jamin's words. Good enough. And it's because you had proved yourself at that time. Right. So they took your recommendation. And I literally showed up the next dayMichael: (30:09)And I have a new gunPhil: (30:10)And I haven't been working on the show in two years. I'm still on the show.Michael: (30:13)And if you had 'em right. And if you had, uh, you know, said, well, yeah, I'll be there next week. They would have found somebody else. Right.Phil: (30:20)Because, um, literally cause they were, they were buying their own. You guys were buying your own lunch at that point, I think.Michael: (30:25)Yeah. Like we, like, we need lunch. Yeah.Phil: (30:29)Carrie Clifford's like, I want my tuna where, which tuna do I get. Yeah,Michael: (30:32)Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, having a good attitude and being ready to start tomorrow is, is really key. Unfortunately, that's how you, if you want to, like, if you want to work in Hollywood, you have to be in Hollywood, you know? And, and sure there are other jobs like in Atlanta and, and, uh, Albuquerque, but often, um, like it may be harder to have a career in those cities because there's just not as many opportunities. So I'm sure people, you know, piece together careers. I just think it'd be easier to piece together a career in Hollywood. There's just more options.Phil: (31:02)Yeah. There's constant. There shows constantly shooting, especially right now with streaming and cable. There's not like a development season. Like there used to be right. It'sMichael: (31:11)And you may have to move, you may, I know like costumers, they work here, but they have to take a job in some other state because that's where the show is shooting, but writers generally have to generally stay in LA. Yeah.Phil: (31:23)Yeah. So are there any other jobs or any other ways to break in to Hollywood at this point? I mean, is it, is it just, you have to work yourself way up as a PA or get lucky enough to, you know, be lucky enough and have the craft and skill to become a Screenwriter. Is there another option?Michael: (31:38)We talked about this in other episodes where if you have your own, if Hollywood is not going to come to you, unless you really make it worth Hollywood's while. So if you are blowing up on Twitter, if you have a giant Twitter feed or, uh, you know, Instagram or whatever, and, and you have a million followers, Hollywood will find you, you don't have to start at The Bahamas. Like, man, this person here, she's got it going on. Uh, let's give this person to show because they have a built-in marketing platform that often happens. Yeah. So there's a show on CBS, it'd be 10 years ago. Shit My Dad says, and that was based on a popular Twitter feed. Yeah. And so, you know, that guy just tweeted it from wherever he wanted and you know, just find stuff that his dad said.Phil: (32:19)Got it. So I, I do, you know, of other people who've broken in, so I'm another writer who is that a lot of stuff to put stuff out there as website he's got scripts and things. Javier Grillo-Marxuach who I think you might know. Yeah. He wrote lost. Yeah. Yeah. Lost. He was a showrunner on a bunch of stuff. So he, I believe was a development executive and he transitioned that position to being a writer. Yeah. So there are those other opportunities as well. Do you know anything about those?Michael: (32:45)I do know. I have a friend who we hired on a show, Glen Martin DDS years ago. And I didn't know him at the time we just hired him. We became friends. And I... I discovered after about a year that he was at one point a Development Executive at a studio and I was shocked. I was like, oh, I hadn't because it's a whole, whole different thing. Um, and he told me that most development executives from his they're, they're jealous of writers. They want to be writers. And so, because it's more creative and development executives or, you know, they, they tend to give notes, uh, but they don't do it themselves. And so, cause you know, it's one of those, like why would you want to become, uh, an executive at a studio or a network if you were not had that creative passion in you, you wanted to create. And so the closer I think they can get to creating the more fulfilled they would be, which is, you know, obviously writing is probably closer to... than giving notes toPhil: (33:35)Somebody. That makes sense. It makesMichael: (33:37)Sense, but I'm, I'm not gonna speak for all that. I'm sure there are many great development executives or creative executives who love exactly their job. But this is what he told me was that he felt that that many or most really wanted to be really wished they were writers. Right.Phil: (33:50)And I think that, you know, from my limited perspective, with the, the limited amount of work I've done, kind of the general vibe that I get from most people is that most people in most jobs in Hollywood dreamt of being a writer, director, producer, and they are now doing this other job, hoping to have the job that you're also trying to get.Michael: (34:13)I think many writers also want to be directors because it's not writing. It's like, Ooh, because writing is hard. You're like, well, directing it, that seems like something I could do. Was that, wasPhil: (34:20)That your experience when you directed on Maron?Michael: (34:23)Uh, no. That was just an opportunity that came our way. We didn't want to say no to it, but I know other writers who want to get into, or have gotten into directing because writing is really hard. Writing can be difficult even like, I, I used to say like, if you think writing is fun, you're kind of, you're probably doing it wrong. It's hard to do it. Right. It's hard. Yeah. And so I think a lot of writers that well, anything about writing, so.Phil: (34:47)Right, right. Well, awesome, man. I think it was incredibly helpful. You have any other thoughts or?Michael: (34:52)No, I think that's, I think we covered a lot. We have, we have more podcasts come and Phil. We got to save it for the next.Phil: (34:57)Oh, I love it. No. So again, you know, I think that if you want any more of this information, definitely check out Michael's course because he goes into this more detail kind of what's expected in some of those positions and what it takes. But yeah, I think the big note that I would like to give or leave people with is that you don't have to have won the lottery or be born with a silver spoon in your mouth. I sure wasn't. And I live in LA and I work full year round as a PA. And I'm actively working on progressing towards being a better writer so you can make it happen. You just have to get rid of the excuses and just take control and just make decisions with what can I do today to improve things. And we talked about this on another podcast, like I've always was raised with this prodigy syndrome.Phil: (35:41)I feel like I have to hit grand slams with everything I do. And there's this framework that I've transitioned to, which is, you know, it's Moneyball, it's singles singles win baseball games. If I can hit a single today, like which might just be writing something, I can hit a single today. It's not sexy. If I hit a single tomorrow, it's not sexy. If I hit a single one day three, it's not sexy, but they, for you score it run day five. You score a run. It's about chaining those singles together. And that's how you ultimately win.Michael: (36:08)I think so. That makes sense to me. Yeah. Like people say like, well, how do I become a writer is like, you're, if you write every day, you're a writer, right? If you want to be a paid writer, that's a little different, but you know, but if you were someone new who wrote a script last year, you're not a writer. You have someone you're someone who has written. So a writer you're constantly writing, it's active. And, and that will make, that will make you better at your craft and will increase your odds of actually becoming a professional writer.Phil: (36:35)Awesome. I love it. Here's a great way to end. Thank you, Michael. Thanks everybody for listening.Michael: (36:40)Thank you.Phil: (36:53)This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.filet Hudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas crane until next time, keep writing.

This Week's Guest: Carrie Clifford Carrie is an actor and writer living in Los Angeles. She is currently writing on the animated show, The Great North, and before that the sitcom, Tacoma FD.  She has been in a bunch of comedies including: Super Troopers 2, The Slammin' Salmon, Fun Size, The Babymakers.She has appeared on your TV set in: Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, The Office, Bob's Burgers, Comedy Bang! Bang!, Longmire and more. Carrie took her first improv class a long, long time ago in Chicago as a way to meet cute guys. She did not get one date. She did, however, continue doing improv and stand up and performed regularly around LA in the before times. The global pandemic caused her to spend way too much time with her husband and son.

Welcome back to the one and only podcast for Jonathan Mangum's Ujokes show! This week, Carrie Clifford and Andrew Hobson stepped into the arena to make jokes about Thong-diaper hybrid products, and a kid smeared in half peanut butter half jelly, but who took the crown of comedy? Carrie? Andrew? Or did someone from team audience snatch it up? Keep listening until the end of this week's podcast to find out!Last week's Ujokes podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_I2-tgByEUPlay along live on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAm98RWDq5EFBYyCbeIPd2ALink to the official Ujokes Website: https://ujokes.com/Catch new Ujokes podcasts on:Podchaser: https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/ujokes-weekly-1628454/episodesiTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ujokes-weekly/id1554692974?uo=4Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2EmzI2lahWs0EDTxvZKsNiYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCulNXGDkfAfGFli1v20OXBg/featuredSpreaker: https://www.spreaker.com/show/ujokes-weeklyiHeartRadio: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/966-ujokes-weekly-73060071/Google Podcasts: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3ByZWFrZXIuY29tL3Nob3cvNDQ3MDI2Ni9lcGlzb2Rlcy9mZWVk?sa=X&ved=0CAMQ4aUDahcKEwiI-9zR1K7xAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ&hl=en-CAAnd remember to follow me onTwitter: https://twitter.com/PostmasterRadioInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/postmaster_radio/----------------------------Credits For The Music-----------------------------mr.AudioAgent- Funny Background Music Silly And Awkward Comedy MusicAlec Koff- [No Copyright] Epic Awards - Cinematic Music for Youtube Videos (No Copyright)Kevin Macleod- Quirky Dog

Gloria and Carrie met when Gloria was part of the METCO program which bussed black kids from Boston to schools in the suburbs. In this episode they discuss growing up in two different worlds, and how Gloria had to straddle both, without feeling at home in either. produced by: Carrie Clifford, Gloria Harrison & Frankie Fulleda music by: Alex Skolnick Trio special thanks to: Paddy Hirsch, Eileen Fogarty For more on the busing program in Boston, listen to NPR's piece about METCO:

In this episode we meet improviser, actor, writer, and mother, Carrie Clifford. Her road to motherhood was long and arduous. We’re talkin’ embryo freezing, surrogacy, IVF over and over and over again, loss, and finally...a healthy baby boy. Plus Molly has some interesting developments to fill you in on and she introduces you to Dr. Chung from California Fertility Partners. Follow Carrie here: Instagram // TwitterWant to know what's happening with Molly's womb in real time while supporting the podcast? Subscribe to patreon.com/spermcastGot questions? Call or text 323-741-1818 or email Molly at spermcast@gmail.comCheck out the SpermCast Website!Follow SpermCast here: Instagram // Twitter // Facebook // See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Betrayal. Group sex. Gambling. And that’s all before Valerie’s morning coffee. Plus Hot Goss featuring Carrie Clifford! GOSSIP was written and directed by Allison Raskin. Produced by Rachel Wolther. Sound Design by Casey Holford. Featuring performances by Amanda Perez (Mia), Allison Raskin (Bethany), Victoria Rowell (Valerie), Beth Littleford (Rockin’ Robin), Pete Gardner (Larry), Carrie Clifford (Eliza), Rachel Scanlon (Mayor Alice), and Joe Hartzler (Thad). For more information, visit gossippodcast.com. You can binge listen to all episodes of Gossip now on Stitcher Premium. For a free month of listening, go to stitcherpremium.com/gossip and use promo code 'GOSSIP.'

Gilk is in studio but has diarrhea. This will greatly impact his Farmer's Only dating life. We speak to Stunt Man Extraordinaire, Nick Plantico and find out that it didn't used to be safe to set yourself on fire. Next, we speak to Carrie Clifford from Super Troopers 2 and Slammin' Salmonwho stopped producing reality TV because of the redneck murder on the Jenny Jones show. We also speak to Cindy Starfall, asian porn star. We learn that she has cat videos.We all think she is the human version of our asian puppet. Baseball fights, Pops calls weed dispensaries, and the new game Jizz Responsibilities all happen after intermission. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Actor Carrie Clifford (Bob's Burgers, The Office) stops by Studio 309 and discusses playing D1 lacrosse at Colgate, being a producer on the Jenny Jones show, and more! Info, photos, links, et cetera -- http://boxangeles.com/111

Carrie Clifford (Slammin' Salmon, Babymakers), actress, stand up and old friend joins Kevin & Steve again. They talk male/female hair patterns, summer vacation, summer concerts, Katy Perry, auditions and Carrie's Obama Motorcade imbroglio.  Enjoy the Chew!!!!

#FBR's holiday stocking was stuffed with special guests @carrieclifford and @theskylerstone! We talk Target, Kevin's teat getting suckled and partying with #PaulWalker, RIP. 

Today we had two celebrity guests.  Tim Bader and Carrie Clifford.  We talk about catch phrases, and celebrities, and how to work in their own catch phrase while taking to them.  Paranormal movie, and shoes, and Kim K, and Paris Hilton.  One of the best shows ever.  Thanks!

Kevin & Carissa welcome guests Carrie Clifford and Chris Marrs to talk about easy stress relief, prom disasters and The Book Club web show. Also, Carrie shares a HORRIBLY wonderful story about pepper spray! Listen!!

Farley Brothers Radio welcomed hilarious comedienne Carrie Clifford in the studio to discuss Baby Boss, rapey Groupons, and how Johnny gave his coach a stroke.

Today on the Farley Bros they were joined by the always sexy Carrie Clifford. They talked about drinking, drugs and blow jobs. They continued their quest for an all expense paid pub crawl with a Farlower. They debated who's crueler boys or girls, and they reminisced about blowing up fish with fireworks in Wisconsin.

Kevin and Steve chew it with comedienne du hilarite', Carrie Clifford about Carrie's stand up, The Slammin' Salmon, Kevin's anti social behavior, Steve's social behavior, killing guinea pigs, and whether or not Carrie really has a husband.

     On today’s episode Dave interviews Actress Carrie Clifford. Carrie has appeared In Slammin’ Salmon, Hollywood Residential and is also Dave’s Improv partner on their signature show Razowsky and Clifford.   A.D.D. Comedy welcomes Actress Carrie Clifford.

Alumna talks about HBO project, working with Broken Lizard members, and her improv shows.

Alumna talks about HBO project, working with Broken Lizard members, and her improv shows.

Alumna talks about HBO project, working with Broken Lizard members, and her improv shows.