Podcasts about Broken Lizard

Drew and Travis party with Broken Lizard's Club Dread, the 2004 horror comedy starring Bill Paxton and the comedy troupe behind Super Troopers! This is the second entry in a month of movies starring the late Bill Paxton, a GenreVision favorite. We miss you, Bill! TIMESTAMPS 00:00:00 - Club Dread 00:49:00 - The Shelf 00:56:14 - Calls to Action 00:57:11 - Currently Consuming 01:08:51 - End SHOW LINKS I Still Know What You Did Last Summer The Final Girls The Luckiest Man in America GenreVision on Letterboxd Drew Dietsch on Letterboxd Travis Newton on Letterboxd GenreVision on Bluesky Drew Dietsch on Bluesky

Buckle up for a hilarious ride as the Retro Guardians take you back to 2001 for a deep dive into the cult comedy classic Super Troopers. In this episode, we break down the absurd antics of Vermont's most dysfunctional highway patrol unit — from meow-counting traffic stops to syrup-chugging showdowns and the eternal battle of Troopers vs. local cops. We explore why Broken Lizard's low-budget film became a stoner-comedy staple, how its quotability defined a generation, and what still makes it so damn funny over 20 years later.Is Super Troopers just a chaotic mess of gags, or is there genius hidden in the mustaches? Meow's the time to find out.Tune in, grab a litre of cola, and don't forget... this episode is for recreational purposes only.

This week Zena and Shelby are joined once again by Keenan McClelland! Together they travel to a tropical island full of cold drinks, hot bodies, and bloodshed!! That's right, it's Deep Dive week and we are headed to Broken Lizard's CLUB DREAD!! Grab a margarita and a machete and let's get raunchy! Do you have a question you'd like the Bloody Disgusting Podcast to answer on air? You can call and leave a message at (224) 475-1040 or text us! Or shoot us an email @ bdisgustingpodcast@gmail.com.  *** // Follow Keenan McClelland  Twitter/X: https://x.com/horror_guy  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/horror_guy/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/horrorguy.bsky.social YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiDnFIBSNxo-cPzSE0nDF4w TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@horrorguy_ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hallowseve365/ The Every Day is Halloween Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/hallowseve365 // Follow Zena Dixon   Twitter/X: https://x.com/LovelyZena  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/realqueenofhorror/  Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/lovelyzena.bsky.social  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RealQueenofHorror/videos  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@realqueenofhorror  // Follow Shelby Novak Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/shelbybnovak   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shelbybnovak/    Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/shelbybnovak.bsky.social // Follow Scare You To Sleep Podcast Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/scareyoutosleep   Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/scareyoutosleep/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/scareyoutosleep.bsky.social ***    Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite apps. ***    // Follow The Bloody Disgusting Podcast    Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/BDisgustingpod   IG: https://www.instagram.com/bdisgustingpod   Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/bdisgustingpod.bsky.social Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bloodydisgustingpodcast   Follow Bloody Disgusting on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@bdisgusting  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vid Welp - it finally happened. Brad joins Chuck in Ray in their prestigious (and confusing) club. Ray gets criticized for his gay dessert in a way he'd never expect. Chuck goes to the screening for the unreleased movie Big Helium Dog starring Brian Quinn, Bryan Johnson, Kevin Smith, Michael Ian Black, the Broken Lizard cast and more. And finally - a heartbreaking tale crosses Ray's earwaves. Video edit by Craig Depina @funbearablepod / funbearablepod.com ------------------------------- This episode is brought to you by NARRAGANSETT BEER! Check out Narragansett Beer nationally and make sure to check out the new Narragansett brewery in Providence, RI if you're in the New England area!narragansettbeer.com / @gansettbeer ------------------------------- #racism #homophobia #bigheliumdog #hamster #comedy #jeselnik #rogan

Send us a textThis week we talk about Super Troopers from 2001! Our creator profile this week is Brian Cox!https://www.instagram.com/thebonsaimoviecrew/https://twitter.com/bonsai_crewhttps://www.tiktok.com/@thebonsaimoviecrewhttps://discord.gg/8jCPe8T2kT

Jay Chandrasekhar (Super Troopers 1 & 2, Beerfest, Club Dread, The Dukes of Hazzard) joins SOMETHIN' CRUNCHY to discuss Broken Lizard's vault of film ideas, updates on Super Troopers 3 and other new projects, golf and fan encounters on the course, almost making the next Cheech & Chong movie, his app Vouch, a game to explore his dynamic with the other lizards, and more! Jay Chandrasekhar at Tempe Improv Mustache Shenanigans on Amazon Sponsored by: Magic Mind (Discount code: CRUNCH20)

Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme take their shoes off again. Steve and Rick get confrontational again. We think Rick was joking. We can't tell is Steve was. Want to see Rick on his headling tour? Goto https://www.punchup.live/rickglassman for cities and tickets [Dallas, Houston, Austin, Seattle, San Diego, and more coming]. Sign up for his NO SPAM mailing list (only give your email and zip code) to find out when he's performing in your city.  RICK GLASSMAN https://www.instagram.com/rickglassman https://www.tiktok.com/@rickglassman https://www.patreon.com/takeyourshoesoff https://discord.gg/Z2v4HT https://www.punchup.live/rickglassman https://www.tysocards.com https://www.rickglassman.com/store BROKEN LIZARD https://brokenlizard.com https://www.instagram.com/heffernanrule https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemmeSupport the show: https://www.patreon.com/takeyourshoesoff

Send us a textThe Broken Lizard gang behind Super Troopers put out a little movie in 2006 called Beerfest. With a title like Beerfest, it's about what you'd expect, a lot of fun! Whether you know the comedy troupe or not, you'll recognize Donald Sutherland, Cloris Leachman, Will Forte, Nat Faxon, and others.In the spirit of fun, we also discuss and draft our favorite movies centered on a party or festival. Grab a boot of beer and listen now!If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on the iTunes/Apple Podcasts app or wherever you listen. Or better yet, tell a friend to listen!Want to support our show and become a PCY Classmate? Click here!Follow us on your preferred social media:TwitterFacebookInstagramSupport the show

Send us a textThe Broken Lizard gang behind Super Troopers put out a little movie in 2006 called Beerfest. With a title like Beerfest, it's about what you'd expect, a lot of fun! Whether you know the comedy troupe or not, you'll recognize Donald Sutherland, Cloris Leachman, Will Forte, Nat Faxon, and others.In the spirit of fun, we also discuss and draft our favorite movies centered on a party or festival. Grab a boot of beer and listen now!If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on the iTunes/Apple Podcasts app or wherever you listen. Or better yet, tell a friend to listen!Want to support our show and become a PCY Classmate? Click here!Follow us on your preferred social media:TwitterFacebookInstagramSupport the show

Broken Lizard made a horror movie centered around Bill Paxton's Coconut Pete!

The Broken Lizard comedy troupe hit the big time with their cult classic Super Troopers, but their next movie wasn't received quite as warmly. My friend Peter Hall would like to officially kick-start the cult classic status for this insane horror comedy. Plus we spend some time honoring the great Bill Paxton, praising some of this year's best horror movies, and promoting Pete's new horror novel, The Dead Friends Society! Thanks for listening to Overhated! There are 100+ more episodes at patreon.com/scottEweinberg. Subscribe to hear them all now! Check out the list of episodes here: bit.ly/3WZiLFk. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, etc.    Overhated is now proudly sponsored by those Effin' Birds.com, the award-winning comic strip by Aaron Reynolds.  

You think Eddie Money has to put up with this shit? Featuring... Phone-a-Friend - Lisa tells us a little about Club Dread (2004), the Broken Lizard comedy with Bill Paxton! Filmmaker Lightning Round - Keanu Reeves! Hosted by your own personal cinematic Elon Musk and Nicolas Maduro! Music by Splash '96 Recorded & Edited by Boutwell Studios Write us about Pina Coladaberg at podcast@sidewalkfest.com Sidewalk is on Threads! Follow us! Join us at the 26th annual Sidewalk Film Festival Aug. 19-25! Get tickets and passes now at www.sidewalkfest.com!

In this episode, we're diving into the cult classic comedy Super Troopers. Join The Dale, Cea and Twan as we explore the hilarious shenanigans of the Vermont state troopers who push the boundaries of law enforcement and comedy. We'll discuss the film's clever dialogue, unforgettable pranks, and the unique comedic style of Broken Lizard. So grab yourself a Double Baca Cheeseburger, litter cola and join the crew for this wild ride. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/cult-of-the-living-dead/support

Hello Horror Heads! We're continuing our island cruise this week as we dissect the 2004 horror-comedy "Club Dread" by Broken Lizard. We talk about Bill Paxton, Twister, Broken Lizard movies, and even a conversation with Paul. Enjoy! 4:23 Behind the Scenes with Broken Lizard 23:53 Unveiling Red Herrings and Tropes 29:08 Deadly Encounters and Scream-esque Kill 29:56 Reframing the Situation 34:41 Childhood Impact of Twister 40:05 Experiencing the Twister Ride 41:30 Easy Breakup and Twister Enthusiasm 44:06 Carlos's Gruesome End 49:59 Analyzing Jimmy Buffett's Songs 53:38 Deciphering Coconut Pete's Song 58:42 Playing Records Backwards 59:59 The Hilarious "Sapactus" Moment 1:03:57 Quick Moving Movie Discussions 1:06:21 Suspicion Falls on Penelope 1:16:08 Unveiling the Killer's Identity 1:25:21 Final Showdown and Unexpected Return Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Son-of-a-son-of-a-bitch we have a great episode here! This week is all about The Broken Lizard's 2004 sleeper "Club Dread" and Bill Paxton's portrayal of Coconut Pete, the totally-not-Jimmy-Buffett character at the center of the film. We also get a deep dive in the Pax-man's real-life musical history. PLUS: Shawn reveals the REAL reason he started this radio program.. Visit https://fictionradiopod.com for more episodes and links to all our feeds and socials. Contact us at FictionRadioPod@gmail.com with your comments or suggestions for future episodes.

"Mother of God."Expecting 1987's "Robocop?" Well guess again, muchachos. We're hitting the highway with the comedy cult classic from 2002, Broken Lizard's "Super Troopers."A deeply nostalgic cut from Justin's teenage years that surprisingly (but also not so surprisingly) did not hit the mark with Joe. Call it differing tastes, or simply chalk it up to a movie comedy that's nearing 20 years old showing its age. Irregardless, this movie still slaps and hits for the most part, with its deceivingly straightforward plot, but heavily peppered in with some classic early-2000's raunch and physical comedy.Following up our Crime Corner July, faux law enforcement mini series will be the 2000 action comedy starring Uncultured Universe fav Sandra Bullock, "Miss Congeniality!"--We are Uncultured Universe - the podcast where two friends show each other movies, tv, music, or anything else to get a little more cultured. Remember to like, review & subscribe!--Stay up to date on all new episodes here: https://linktr.ee/uncultureduniverseCheck us out and follow on Instagram @‌uncultureduniverse

Pool Sceners   We are back from our break to send you to a place called Coconut Pete's "Pleasure Island." No need to stop and think EXCEPT that Machete Phil is running around taking out the staff. How will you get your Mai Tai's down in Pinacolaburg?? Join the troop from Broken Lizard and the great Bill Paxton in this cult classic from 2004.   Come on down and have a drink! Salute.   SPREAD THE WORD POOL SCENERS! JOIN THE POOL SCENERS GROUP ON FACEBOOK FOR EXCLUSIVE AND INCLUSIVE CONTENT! LIKE. COMMENT. SUBSCRIBE. RATE AND FOLLOW... APPLE. SPOTIFY. PODBEAN. PODBAY and EVERYWHERE PODCASTS ARE FOUND! LEAVE A 5 STAR REVIEW. WE READ IT ON THE AIR. YOU WIN A PRIZE!!! HAVE AN IDEA FOR AN EPISODE OR A POOL CHECK...SEND US AN EMAIL OR MESSAGE US AT ONE OF THE LINKS BELOW. CONTRIBUTE TO THE SHOW ON LINKTREE!! WE GREATLY APPRECIATE IT!! Linktree: https://www.linktr.ee/poolscenepodcast Email: PoolScenePodcast@gmail.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PoolScenePodacst Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/PoolScenePodcast Discord: poolscenepodcast Threads: https://www.threads.com/poolscenepodcast TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/thepoolscenepodcast Twitch: https://twitch.tv/poolscenepodcast YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/PoolScenePodcast

Meet Kevin Heffernan & Steve Lemme, two fifths of the funniest comedy troupe in America called Broken Lizard! They are responsible for hilarious films such as Beerfest, Super Troopers, Super Troopers 2 and the tv show Tacoma FD. Don't miss Craig, Kevin and Steve just straight up riffing for an hour, laughs guaranteed, EnJOY! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

NFL Star Mike Roos joins Jay Chandrasekhar and Hayes MacArthur to tell the tales from his life. Since his early days in Estonia where he was born to his journey in sports like basketball, soccer and finally football. Learn how Mike ended up appearing in two Broken Lizard movies and if he stills follows the NFL Drafts.

On this episode we have a delightful chat with Frank McGrath and Valerie Summey, who both work in Editing and Post-Production for film and television.  Frank McGrath is a film and television picture editor living in Los Angeles, California. He has been working in the film industry for 20 years, starting as an assistant editor on documentaries and most recently as an editor on Broken Lizard's Quasi for SearchLight Pictures and Tacoma FD for TruTV. Other credits include the television shows Arrested Development (Netflix), The Tick (Amazon), and Children's Hospital (Adult Swim) and the feature films Lights Out (New Line Cinema) and Hot Tub Time Machine 2 (MGM). Frank is also a member of Local 700 Motion Picture Editors Guild, The National Association of Television Arts and Sciences and represented by Eastern Talent Agency. He is also a proud parent and husband. Valerie Summey has been working in television for more than a decade in various post production roles including post coordinating, assistant editing, and editing. She has worked in live action and animation on a variety of productions including Who is America? (Showtime), Man Seeking Woman (Comedy Central), Another Period (Comedy Central), and Rick and Morty (Adult Swim). She most recently was an Animatic Editor on Solar Opposites (Hulu).

Welcome to the Savage Horror Creeps Podcast! We are guides through the world of horror films past, present, and future! Narrating years, decades, sub-genres, subjects, and themes with honest reviews and rankings, no film (or listener) will be spared!   In this episode, the Savage Horror Creeps cover the horror of 2004. They also cover a bunch of new movies including many still in theaters!  But first, they are put to the test through deadly Jigsaw traps before they are able to rank the best of the year and dish out awards... And in perhaps an even deadlier game, they do their best zombie impressions... ohhhhh the HORROR!!!!     Episode 29: Savage Top Ten Shaun of the Dead Saw Dawn of the Dead The Village Ginger Snaps 2: Unleashed Club Dread The Grudge The Hazing Shutter Creep   with Honorable Mentions, Horror Awards and nominees, and MORE!   Be sure to subscribe to the Savage Horror Creeps Podcast on: Apple Spotify Or wherever you listen You can email our show at savagehorrorcreeps@gmail.com and interact with us on: Instagram: @savagehorrorcreeps Facebook: The Savage Horror Creeps Podcast Page Twitter (X): @savage_horror   Stay tuned for our next episode, Episode 30: The Horror of 1975   Special thanks to Victoria for our awesome artwork! Feel free to check out more of her stuff on Instagram: @unm.ind

Welcome to our podcast series from The Super Network and Pop4D called Tubi Tuesdays Podcast! This podcast series is focused on discovering and doing commentaries/watch a longs for films found on the free streaming service Tubi, at TubiTV Your hosts for Tubi Tuesdays are Super Marcey, ‘The Terrible Australian' Bede Jermyn, Prof. Batch (From Pop4D & Web Tales: A Spider-Man Podcast) and Kollin (From Trash Panda Podcast), will take turns each week picking a film to watch and most of them will be ones we haven't seen before.Movie Starts Playing At: 00:06:51Welcome back to The Tubi Tuesdays Podcast, thank you to everyone who tuned in to Classic Doctor Who Month, we hope you enjoyed it. It is back to the regular with each week a co-host picks a random film they find on Tubi to watch, this week the gang is all here with Super Marcey, Bede Jermyn, Prof. Batch and Kollin with this week being Batch's pick! No one really complained this week with Batch picking our first Broken Lizard film with Beerfest (2006) and yes it really is our first Broken Lizard film on this show! Prepare for anything with this show, enjoy folks!Beerfest was directed by Jay Chandrasekhar, it stars Jay Chandrasekhar, Kevin Heffernan, Erik Stolhanske, Steve Lemme, Paul Soter, Jürgen Prochnow, Eric Christian Olsen, Nat Faxon, Will Forte, Ralf Moeller, Mo'Nique and Cloris Leachman.If you have never listened to a commentary before and want to watch the film along with the podcast, here is how it works. You simply need to grab a copy of the film or load it up on Tubi (you may need alcohol), and sync up the podcast audio with the film. We will tell you when to press and you follow along, it is that easy! Because we have watched the films on Tubi, it is a free service and there are ads, however we will give a warning when it comes up, so you can pause the film and provide time stamps to keep in sync.Highlights include:* Welcome to Beerfest!* Cloris Leachman is the original sexy auntie grandma!* Who's drinking? Who's sober?* The soap opera continues with Louise, Kraven, Anastasia and more!* The bowl hair cut shows up again, do we sense a theme?* So many random cameos in this film!* DASSSS BOOOOOOT!* Don't jerk off frogs ...* Plus much, much more!Check out The Super Network on Patreon to gain early access to The Tubi Tuesdays Podcast!DISCLAIMER: This audio commentary isn't meant to be taken seriously, it is just a humourous look at a film. It is for entertainment purposes, we do not wish to offend anyone who worked on and in the film, we have respect for you all. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Broken Lizard's follow up to Super Troopers, Mel Gibson makes a very lucrative, kinda insane horror movie, Luke Perry stars in a movie with a title tailor-made for late nite monologues, Daniel Day Lewis earns his paycheck, Homer's ultimate dumb job, Liam Neeson is once again Liam Neeson. All that and more 30, 20, and 10 years ago!

I've been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I've written on some amazing shows, the work that I'm most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It's the funniest, it's the deepest, and it's the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big dayPhil Hudson:Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's alreadyPhil Hudson:Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.Michael Jamin:It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.Phil Hudson:It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm doing it myself,Phil Hudson:And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?Michael Jamin:Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.Phil Hudson:This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?Michael Jamin:Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,Michael Jamin:It's also,Phil Hudson:But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.Phil Hudson:And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?Michael Jamin:The Goul? Yeah, thePhil Hudson:Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.Michael Jamin:That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.Phil Hudson:I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. JustMichael Jamin:Slow it down. Yeah, down,Phil Hudson:Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.Michael Jamin:And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And soPhil Hudson:Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successfulMichael Jamin:In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means untilPhil Hudson:I remember this conversation,Michael Jamin:And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.Phil Hudson:That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.Michael Jamin:And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.Phil Hudson:And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.Michael Jamin:And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?Phil Hudson:This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.Michael Jamin:It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.Michael Jamin:And what happened?Phil Hudson:They paid him everyMichael Jamin:Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decidePhil Hudson:It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You got to build it first though.Phil Hudson:You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska orMichael Jamin:Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.Phil Hudson:Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.Michael Jamin:That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. HorribleMichael Jamin:Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book.Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well.Phil Hudson:This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report,Phil Hudson:But its hateMichael Jamin:Speech. You still have to reportPhil Hudson:It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity.Michael Jamin:I could do that with my words. You'rePhil Hudson:The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it,Michael Jamin:I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to PrinceMichael Jamin:And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild.Phil Hudson:Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing.Michael Jamin:It's just odd. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast.Michael Jamin:Oh,Phil Hudson:Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it,Phil Hudson:But you're doing it.Michael Jamin:I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out.Michael Jamin:I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep.Phil Hudson:It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah,Michael Jamin:That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am.Phil Hudson:In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you?Michael Jamin:And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect.Michael Jamin:What is that?Phil Hudson:So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world.Michael Jamin:Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this,Phil Hudson:People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too.Michael Jamin:They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does.Phil Hudson:Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this.Phil Hudson:And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain.Michael Jamin:There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book.So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover,Phil Hudson:Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it.Phil Hudson:But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it.Phil Hudson:Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplishedMichael Jamin:Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover.You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it.I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words.Phil Hudson:Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I calledMichael Jamin:It? What did youPhil Hudson:I said, that's Providence.Michael Jamin:Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking.Phil Hudson:And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing.Michael Jamin:And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That'sPhil Hudson:Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need.Phil Hudson:Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff.Michael Jamin:And where's that on YouTube?Phil Hudson:I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny.Michael Jamin:And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person.Phil Hudson:It's the fable. It wasn'tMichael Jamin:The other way around.Phil Hudson:It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. EveryMichael Jamin:Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you wantPhil Hudson:Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story?Michael Jamin:Oh my God. That's anotherPhil Hudson:Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it ver

This week I'm drunk.. you're drunk.. everybody's drunk as we cover our first Broken Lizard film off of Tony's shelf. We discuss the terribly awesome German accents, all the fun drinking games we've played over the years, and the numerous references to other movies. Grab Das Boot and enjoy!

On this episode we have a real treat for you! A feast of a movie all about flesh eating and despair! It's the classic 1980 exploitation flick Antropophagus by the great Joe D'amato. We get into all the gory details on this episode that will leave you hungry for more! Or at least for a sausage. Maybe even a baby. Hear it now and let the horror into your life! ANTROPOPHAGUS : Originally released October 9th, 1980  "Tourists become stranded on an island and are stalked by a gruesome killer that slaughtered the island's former inhabitants. "Did you know that you can watch episodes of DEATH BY DVD and much much more on the official Patreon of Death By DVD? ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★ subscribe to our newsletter today for updates on new episodes, merch discounts and more at www.deathbydvd.com ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

New season, new format, new guests! We start strong with a 2000's comedy cult classic near and dear to our hearts, well, almost all of our hearts. Casey O'Connell joins us to help keep our station open as we dive into the pranks, the Winnebago fights, and the "Afganastan-imation". Is this Broken Lizard's best film to date? Has Luc ever chugged syrup in real life? Will Javier hate this movie? Tune in to find out meow.Sonic Death Monkey Top 5: Top 5 Movie Jobs You Wish You WorkedCocktail: Large Farva.5oz Cognac.5oz Bitter Amaro.5oz Sweet AmaroSplash of ColaServe on the rocks and remember, you can Dimpisize your drink for just twenty five cents more.Subscribe to us on Patreon FREE! Plus additional paid tiers with get you access to the Post Show, and more!https://www.patreon.com/NostalgiaKillersPodcastFeaturing:Casey O'ConnellJavier MartinezChuck StarzenskiLuc Londe Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

 On this episode we drift through the depths of the galaxy looking for planets to destroy, beach ball aliens to fight, the wild concept of phenomenology to ponder, sentient bombs to argue with, and all this while OUT of toilet paper! We're talking about John Carpenters 1974 DARK STAR, written by Carpenter and Dan O'Bannon, writer of Alien and director of Return Of The Living DeadBlast off for an absurd and strange episode!  Did you know that you can watch episodes of DEATH BY DVD and much much more on the official Patreon of Death By DVD? Don't miss out on  WHO SHOT HANK : a special video Q&A available for your viewing displeasure exclusively available on Patreon ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★ subscribe to our newsletter today for updates on new episodes, merch discounts and more at www.deathbydvd.comHEY, while you're still here.. have you heard...DEATH BY DVD PRESENTS : WHO SHOT HANK? The first of its kind (On this show, at least) an all original narrative audio drama exploring the murder of this shows very host, HANK THE WORLDS GREATEST! Explore WHO SHOT HANK, starting with the MURDER! A Death By DVD New Year Mystery WHO SHOT HANK : PART ONE WHO SHOT HANK : PART TWO WHO SHOT HANK : PART THREE WHO SHOT HANK : PART FOUR WHO SHOT HANK PART 5 : THE BEGINNING OF THE ENDWHO SHOT HANK PART 6 THE FINALE : EXEUNT OMNES  ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

On this fresh from the grave episode of Death By DVD we bring WHO SHOT HANK back! Who Shot Hank is an all original audio drama about the horrific murder of the original host and co-founder of this very show, Hank The Worlds Greatest. Hank was murdered on new years eve 2021, and following his brutal death the haunting investigation would ROCK THE WORLD! Hear Who Shot Hank, the murder that started it all and parts 1-4 completely re-mastered in fresh and filling STEREO audio. The first 5 chapters of the story, together as ONE full episode. The Who Shot Hank pentalogy brings the horror home to you. Listen now to Death by DVD's all original audio drama. ***WE RECOMMEND LISTENING TO WHO SHOT HANK WITH HEADPHONES ON, TO HEAR EVERY DETAIL***Want to hear more WHO SHOT HANK? Just head to our official website www.deathbydvd.com to hear the stunning conclusion of this murder mystery. Just click the page titled WHO SHOT HANK!Did you know that you can watch episodes of DEATH BY DVD and much much more on the official Patreon of Death By DVD? Don't miss out on  WHO SHOT HANK : a special video Q&A available for your viewing displeasure exclusively available on Patreon ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★ subscribe to our newsletter today for updates on new episodes, merch discounts and more at www.deathbydvd.com

The first episode of Death By DVD for the year 2024 is here! Have no fear, it's just a "best of" episode! We go through Death by DVD's BEST OF 2023 films on this fresh from the grave episode, awaiting your ear holes, NOW! Click play and make the day with Death! The best films of last year, plus much much more! Be sure to follow DEATH BY DVD on Letterboxd for maximum movies, ALL THE TIME! https://letterboxd.com/deathbydvd/Did you know that you can watch episodes of DEATH BY DVD and much much more on the official Patreon of Death By DVD? ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★ subscribe to our newsletter today for updates on new episodes, merch discounts and more at www.deathbydvd.comHEY, while you're still here.. have you heard...DEATH BY DVD PRESENTS : WHO SHOT HANK? The first of its kind (On this show, at least) an all original narrative audio drama exploring the murder of this shows very host, HANK THE WORLDS GREATEST! Explore WHO SHOT HANK, starting with the MURDER! A Death By DVD New Year Mystery WHO SHOT HANK : PART ONE WHO SHOT HANK : PART TWO WHO SHOT HANK : PART THREE WHO SHOT HANK : PART FOUR WHO SHOT HANK PART 5 : THE BEGINNING OF THE ENDWHO SHOT HANK PART 6 THE FINALE : EXEUNT OMNES  ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

On this week's episode, I talk about all of the different types of "producers" there are working in Hollywood as well as what some of their specific responsibilities might be. Tune in for much more!Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:I would prefer to do another show like that as opposed to a big budget show faster. Let's shoot it faster. I just like it better.Phil Hudson:Buddy. System was pretty quick too. I mean, we shot the In sixMichael Jamin:Weeks. Yeah, buddy System was equally fast. And even still, it feels when you're on set, it's like, oh, this is so boring. Even still, it takes a long time to get each side.You're listening to screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin, back with Phil Hudson for another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. At least until we rename the podcast. We're toying with that idea to open it up. But I don't have an idea yet. I don't have a name yet. So for now, this is what we're going with everyone. That'sPhil Hudson:News to people. I don't think people know thatMichael Jamin:Yet. No, it's news. You're leaking. APhil Hudson:Little hint.Michael Jamin:I'm leaking a hint and it's because I want to open up the conversations a little to broaden out. So it's not just about screenwriting, but also about people who are interested in the arts and reinventing themselves and just putting it out there. So we're going to hang on to that, but for now, we're going to keep talking about this subject, but we will, I'll still talk about screenwriting, so don't want to panic. I'm still going to talk about screenwriting. I just want to open up to more inspirational art stuff. AndPhil Hudson:I think for you, two years into the podcast, it started as a thing during Covid to help people out with this specific space. But your social media has grown to include all creatives and a large percentage of the content that people are consuming on your social media. Forgive me for calling it content, but that is being consumed by people who are more in the creative fields. We have people who've signed up for your screenwriting course who are financial analysts, and they write about finance and they talk about the value of story and story structure. We got artists, novelists, all kinds of people. And so yeah, this makes sense to me, especially as you've kind of outgrown the persona of just being a TV writer and being more of a creative inspirational figure in the space.Michael Jamin:So that's what the plan is. But until then, we're sticking with this name. But okay, everyone, so today I thought we would talk about the title of today's episode is What the Hell Is a Producer? Because no one knows. It's like one of these terms in Hollywood that everyone, it can mean so many different things. It's unclear exactly what a producer does. And I think everyone, when I post on social media, everyone gets it wrong. So we know what a writer does. The writer writes, we know what an actor does. We think we know what a director does, but often people get that wrong. But that could be another episode. But as far as a producer, it means so many different things. So I'm going to break it down and you're going to help me with this. Phil. First we're going to take a step back. So right now the Writer's Guild is on strike against the producers, the Alliance of Motion picture and television producers or the A M P T P. So that's very misleading. It sounds like we are striking against producers, but we're not in this sense. The producers are the studios. So think about Warner Brothers, universal, Sony, Netflix,Phil Hudson:Amazon, yeah, apple.Michael Jamin:So they produce film intelligence shows. So we are striking against the producers of film and television shows, but we are not striking against film and television show producers, which would be, I know that's confusing P GPhil Hudson:A, right? Is that where you're going? Right.Michael Jamin:So that would be, when you think of the P G A, sometimes you watch a film and it says someone's name, the P G a, that's the Producer's Guild of America. So those are people who are producers. They work on the show or the movie that's being made. So anytime you have a film or a television show, you have a production staff and they are there every day and they are so on a TV show in particular, the writers will dream up a sequence or a scene or whatever it is, and then they'll sit down with the producers whose offices are right next door and say, can we make this happen? Your job? We thought of it, but now you have to actually make it happen. And sometimes they say, we can't. You have to. You're going to break the bank. And sometimes they say, okay, we can do this. And those people are producers. Okay, but that's in tv. I'm going to talk more about TV first.Phil Hudson:And there's a note too here too about the P G A, I don't know if you're going to touch on this, but they're not a union that is basically a group of people who have kind of unified or they've basically agreed to be an association, but because they are technically employers, they cannot unionize.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? And so are you in the P G A?Phil Hudson:I think I'm eligible, but I have not joined. I've not pursued it, but it's definitely open.Michael Jamin:But don't you get your don't they help provide health insurance,Phil Hudson:I believe is the D G A and P G A. They've pooled. So basically these producers have agreed to pay into these funds and do these things to provide pension and healthcare for their members. But the difference is they are not effectively a union. I think legally they cannot be a union. So the term guild can be a bit confusing, right, because there's the W G A, which is a union, notMichael Jamin:Really, I don't think WGA is considered a union. I think it's considered.Phil Hudson:I thought they were. I thought that's why they're able to strike because they are unionized. NoMichael Jamin:ThinksPhil Hudson:The collective bargaining is by Definit definition of union. I thought there's a great point.Michael Jamin:I thought there. There's some what add. I thought there's some differences, slight differences, but okay, so now we're going to talk about producersPhil Hudson:Of, it's two different unions. So it's the east and the west combined forces. So there're two different unions that are working togetherMichael Jamin:In what? OhPhil Hudson:Yes. So the writer's Guild East is a union and the Roger's Guild West is a union. And then they join and that's the guild. That's what they represented, two different unions.Michael Jamin:So when we talk about producers on a TV show, this is so unclear and I'm going to try to clear it up and it's going to be still confusing. So producers, like I said, on a TV show, their job is to, for the most part, make it happen. Make whatever we dream of, make it happen. So if we set a scene that takes place in the amusement park, the producer's like, okay, how are we going to shoot there? How are first we got to rent out of Ineson Park, we have to move the cameras there, we have to license, have to buy the space out. And that's producing it. If you want special effects, they're going to have to make sure all those people are there on the set that day. They coordinate the whole damn thing. And there's many different levels of producers, the line producers, the one who deals with mostly making sure we're on budget, making sure. Then there's also like you are, you're an associate producer. What's your job as an associate producer?Phil Hudson:So the saddle associate producer came up this season. It was recommended by an actual producer, savvy Kathy or Kathy, I always mess up her last name, but S'S awesome. She's a 24 and they were trying to figure out a title for my new role. And there are specific titles they can't use because they are managed by union. So facilities manager and things like that. And in basically live tv, anyone who manages the stages or the set or controls things on the ground, that's an associate producer title. So she's the one who encouraged everyone to give me that title. My role was very much, I was an assistant to the producers. I kind of handled anything that they wanted to delegate down. I had their authority to make things happen. My first day I fired somebody because that person was breaking rules and I had to do that. I handled plumber issues, I handled facility issues. I was in charge of making sure that everything got cleaned. If someone needed something, it was my responsibility to make sure that that got coordinated with the production office. So it was basically a liaison between the producers and the other people and the rest of the set. One thing that I found funny is there's this, I might've talked about it on the podcast and forgive me if it's redundant, but there, do you know who Jordan is on Conan Conan show? He's one of his associate producer?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think so. Yeah.Phil Hudson:So his skit came out of, I believe this came out hearing it from Conan. It came out of the last writer strike where they didn't have anything and one of the other producers was like, Jordan, you have such interesting interactions with him, maybe you should just record those. They're just fascinating to watch. So he became a figure on the show and he had Jordan on a podcast and Conan's like, what is your title? He's like, well, I've had many titles. He's like, but what is your title currently? And he's like, it is associate producer. And Conan goes, if there has ever been a more meaningless title in all of television, it's associate producer. I was like, it feels accurate. It's an honorary title. You get respect on set, people respect what you say, but it doesn't really come with many perks.Michael Jamin:Sometimes it might just be a catchall for something that they don't know what to, I started my career as a joke writer on the Mike and Maddie show, which is a morning TV show. I was a writer, so I used to write jokes, but they didn't want to pay me. If they had called me a writer, they would've had to pay me Writer's Guild minimum. And so instead they didn't want to give me that title, they just called me a segment producer instead. And so they could pay me less. But my job, I suppose, was producing segments of it's morning TV show. And so the segment I was in charge of was the morning chat when the hosts are just talking from the camera and they're making jokes about stuff. And then also sometimes we would do remote segments. We did one thing where Dr. Ruth was giving them a tour of some sex store. And so I was there on site just pitching jokes for the sex toys. So I was a producer, but did I really know how to produce? Nah, it's really rare. No,Phil Hudson:But that's a very typical thing. Even from cable shows, morning shows on cable, those are producers. You have producer titles. So my friend's sister was dating a producer on the Late show and he was a producer, but what was he? He was effectively a joke writer. He wrote jokes for the show and he was responsible. But I know people in Utah and New Mexico who are producers and their segment producer, they go out and they like, we're interviewing the person who makes the largest cookie in America. They make sure it gets done. That's it rightMichael Jamin:Now, here's where it gets a little confusing in tv. If you watch a TV show, you'll often see many titles that have the word producer in it, producer, supervising producer, executive producer. Many of those people are just mid to high level writers who don't really have the same functions. They don't do the same jobs as the producers do who work next door who actually make it happen. So is no overlap in the job responsibilities, but the job responsibility of say, executive producer who is probably also the showrunner would be, and also maybe some lower producers like supervising producer. You might be in charge of casting, you might have some editing responsibilities. You also have to know how when you write the whole season, you often will say, is this producible? And that comes with experience. So for example, if I was on a show and we're breaking episodes one through 10 and I see too many locations, it's my job as let's say a co-executive producer to say, we don't need all these, we can combine scenes with locations here. We can be more efficient, even though I'm not actually producing it. I'm wearing my producer's hat that we say.So just so know that it's not all producers on a show or actually on the production side we're also, yeah,Phil Hudson:I had a friend who was an actor and she made a comment once, she's like, all those producers at the front of a show are just writers, don't you? And I was like, that sounds great. I would like that. But the term for co ep, which is what you and your writing partner are on Tacoma FD have been many times, my understanding of this is you're effectively qualified to run the show and often need to do that when the executive producer is off on set or dealing with the casting thing or managing calls with them. So you're running the room, you're making sure it happens. And I've heard that term referred to as the strong number two.Michael Jamin:Yeah, the number two. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So you're the boss, you're there to make sure that the ship stays going. I mean, yeah, it's basically the showrunner's, the captain, you're the first mate you take over when they're need arrest or break and you have the same authority to get things doneMichael Jamin:Basically. So those are our producers. Now there's a common misconception that sometimes people think in TV that producers are the people who raise the money, they put together the money for the project. I want to assure you, we don't touch a nickel. It's like we don't spend our own money. The studios are the ones who are in charge of raising the money. It's their money. So we never open our wallets only in rare exceptions. So for example, I've been involved in projects where someone might be an executive producer and they may put together let's say 10 or $15,000 to shoot a presentation, which is like a down and dirty pilot, a cheap pilot just as a sales tool, but they won't spend a lot of money. It's like very little. They're not investing. A TV show might cost a million dollars to shoot, we're talking about 10 or 15 just to put it on its feet just to show people kind of what it looks like. And this doesn't even happen a lot for the most part in tv executive producers are not in charge of raising money. They don't touch it. We work for the studios. The studios, it's their money that we're playing with. So get that out of your head. It's not a money position in television.Phil Hudson:And I think this is another definition thing too, where it can also be confusing because there is often another executive producer who is that guy who is doing that at the studio. They get that title, right?Michael Jamin:Well, they don't usually get the title. They don't usually get the title at the studio. So that's the catch. They don't get a title. They work for the studio.Phil Hudson:I thought I've seen, I thinkMichael Jamin:They might have a production deal, which is a pod. So for example, often this is why it's so confusing. Often a producer will have what we call a shingle at a studio. So the studio Warner Brothers is paying their overhead. They give 'em a pod, which is a producer over overall deal, and they say for two or three years you have a pod at the studio where you will help develop TV shows. You'll find writers, you'll maybe put together talent, maybe directors, you'll package it, you'll kind of work on the package together and then pitch us the studio, the idea, and then if we like it, we'll shoot it. And if not, we won't. But the person who has the deal, sometimes they're just a highly paid actor on a hit show. They may have a shingle. Sometimes they're just really straight up producers who have a shingle and they will get an executive producer credit on the TV show. But the studio has their own people in charge who oversee the production on the creative side. Development executives or current executives do not get credit on it. It'd be a Warner Brothers show. So I don't recall ever seeing them ever get cut credit on a show unless they sometimes get fired or leave the studio or whatever, and then they get her own production shingle. So that's common.Phil Hudson:And that makes sense because the credit that I'm thinking about, that person who has that EP title, there are three of them and two of them are managers who sold the show. So they did that. They packaged things for Warner to come. So sometimes, and the other was the producer of this production studio making the show, and they were line producer, but also had a producer credit.Michael Jamin:Sometimes a manager of the talent of you, the writer or the actor may get a producer credit because they negotiate for it. It's not uncommon. Often those managers, it just depends on what they do. Often they don't show up. They might have a parking space right in front of the sound stage and they never show up a hundred percent.Phil Hudson:So that's true for Taco fd. And they do show up. They show up for one, maybe two times this season, typically once they pop in, spend about half a day, bring their kids and then they go.Michael Jamin:So it's not really, that's just not their focus. Their focus is on kind selling shows, not actually making them, but occasionally I know some of them. Dave Miner is actually pretty active. I know he helps out. He'sPhil Hudson:One of the ones I'm thinking about. Yep, that shows up.Michael Jamin:He's a manager at Three Arts who also has a executive producer credit on his show, and he's involved more in the day-to-day, but not, it's the degree that the runners want him to be helpful and he is helpful, but it just depends on really the relationship that the producer wants to have on the TV show and what they want to do and what the showrunner is asking of 'em. But I've been on other shows where they have done very little or I was on one show where the producer, the executive producer was a manager of the talent and it seemed like she did everything in her will to help get the show canceled because she was completely inept. And eventually the show was canceled. Then I was like, boy, are you dumb? But it happens. So okay. But again, they don't raise money, and this is on the TV side.They don't raise money with the exception of occasionally, maybe they want to help make a presentation or they put some money together, but they're not financing the show. In the rule in Hollywood, you don't want to put your money. Now if you are creating your own TV show, as I'm talking to my audience, how do you guys break into Hollywood? And I'll often say, Hey, put it on film, put it put up your YouTube channel. In that case, you are putting your own money. Yes, you'll be executive producer putting your own money up, but this is until you break in. And even then, I don't recommend you putting a lot of money. I'm talking about a couple of thousand, not a millionPhil Hudson:Listen episode. Was it 99 where we talked about that? I think we hit on that 99 or 1 0 1. But yeah, think about that. Your story is probably not going to be worth but's. Still a good learning experience, butMichael Jamin:Yeah, it's not a great return on investment. But on the film side, it's a different story. Well, I should say it can be a different story. So if you're making a film, a producer, or it might have a similar function as a producer overall, Dylan and tv, they help put together the project, they have a deal or a shingle at the studio. But again, they're not putting together the money the studio is putting together the money. On an indie film, it's a little different. Often people, the indie filmmakers have to fundraise and so they'll often say, Hey, if you give $5,000, I'll give you an executive producer title on the show. And so in that case, they are helping raise the money.Phil Hudson:Yep. They're finding financiers to do it. And they're typically the ones I know of from the indie films that I've been a part of or seen marketing campaigns. They're typically made their money on pharmaceuticals or their lawyers and big time lawyers or their business people, dentists. And they just, again, we did talk about this recently, but oftentimes those people did not pursue their craft in order to pursue the paycheck. And this is their way of participating. Some of 'em, it's a new venture they're trying to get into. But yeah, that thing oftentimes, yeah. And oftentimes they're looking at it as a tax. They have money they have to spend anyway. It's okay if it takes a loss, why not put on a producer hat and help make an indie film?Michael Jamin:So this idea of when people say, I want to be a Hollywood producer, why? What exactly. Often you don't even know what that means. At the end of the day, if you want to be a producer, you are a producer today I'm a producer. And it just means you are going to hustle to make it happen. And I've worked with many producers who were really just people who hustled. They didn't have some great know-how. They were like, okay, I have a script. How am I going to get this script into the hands of this actor who I don't know? Well, I'll hide it inside of a pizza box and I'll deliver a pizza with a script inside. I've known producers who've done that. They're just hustlers and they've managed to put people together. And so that's what a producer is. A producer just makes it happen.And so sometimes when people say, how do I become a producer? You do it. You just do it and worked. I had on my podcast, Jim Serpico, who's the producer of Marin, he, he's just like a normal guy who hustled, who was always figuring out ways just to make it happen, to get, if you wanted an actor, he's like, we didn't have an in with the actor. He goes, I'll figure out. I'll call someone who I know, someone who might know someone who might know this actor. I'll make some calls, give me a minute. And that's what he was, he was just a guy who was hustling put to just kind of make it happen. And that's how we learned that ultimately cervical learned a lot more about the business. He was very hands-on. He was helping scout and he knew how to shoot and he was really very helpful to have on set. But he really was just a guy who just wanted to do it. I'm here to get it done. That was his attitude.Phil Hudson:I'm thinking about Richard Perello, who is the producing partner of Broken Lizard, and I had the opportunity to be the producer's assistant on Quasi. And when I was doing that job, the line producer, he's U P M and line producer, and he was also a producer on Quasi, and he's also that on Taco. He's guy named Matt Melin. He sat down with him. He made it really clear the producers in film are very different than TV because you can have all of these producers in TV and you have to service them. But on film, there's really one producer, and that's the producer on set. They're the creative producer and that's very much what Perlo was. So his whole point was serve him. If the guys need something, get it done. But if you can hand it off to pa, do it. Just be there for Rich.And that's what I did. I was there. I was there before him. I had his coffee ready, I had his sides ready. I'd set up his chair. If he had something he needed done, I'd run it. I knew what time to go get his coffee after lunch, I'd go get his lunch order. I do all of those things. And at the end you think me, because he's like, I just needed to spend that much time. You think you for taking care of me. It allowed me to focus on the set. And when I was there observing, sitting behind him in the chair in video village, he's like, we need more greens here. We need this here. And he did the same thing. He worked with the guys through their indie films on all of their indie film projects and just learned with them negotiating, figuring out how to get things done. And like you said, they're just hustlers. They get things done.Michael Jamin:So if you want to be a producer and you keep, and you're asking, well, how do I break into Hollywood to be a producer, then you're not a producer because the producer is someone who just gets it done. I will. They figure it out. And so I would say if you want to be a producer, you spend some time on set, learn what all the various jobs are, observe, and then find some kid with a script fresh out of film school or not out of film school and say, Hey, I want to work with you. Let's produce your script.Phil Hudson:Now you're I on the same line of logic. I had another conversation recently with a 24 because they've told me they want to push me down this producer path and they're open to working with me outside of Tacoma depending on what happens if we get picked up. And I said, well, what would be, because the next step for me would be a production supervisor, which is part of this producer path. Then the next would be assistant U P M U P M, line producer, and then potentially producer. And I said, what would make me a good production supervisor? And they said, learn the production side. Learn budgeting. If you could be a line producer's assistant, if you sit in on those conversations about money and how much that rig cost or that lens costs and how much we can afford to do this or that, said, there's no way that's not going to be helpful as a producer. And then she said, I know you want to be a writer. So the other thing is the best collaborators also understand production and budget because they are more willing to give and take. They know what to fight for the creative, they know what to let go of. So it's only helpful as someone who wants to be a showrunner as well.Michael Jamin:Also 8 24, they make some really good stuff. I know it's not exactly what you want to do in terms of writing, but it's likePhil Hudson:It's not something that I turned down no had conversations to about not bad. Yeah, we had conversations about me going to Houston to be a production supervisor on a film, but it was all dependent on the rider's strike. And this was back in April, and I talked to her recently. Everything's been pushed into next year on most of their production slate. They do have waivers from the Writer's Guild, which I don't think people, a lot of people understand. And the waiver is really that they've agreed to every single term the Writer's Guild put out, and they're a small indie film. They're not one of the big studios. And because of that, the Writer's Guild like, sure, if you're going to meet our demands, go ahead and make whatever films you want to do. And they're just continuing to make 'em happen.Michael Jamin:Hustle,Phil Hudson:They're hustling. It's same thing.Michael Jamin:Hustlers. Yeah. So that's why anyone who wants to be a producer, you can be a producer and you don't have to ask permission. WouldPhil Hudson:You say it's street smarts more than book smarts here? Because I know the book smarts are important from a budgeting and a finance perspective, but I also seems to me someone who can just make things happen. That's the job, make it happen.Michael Jamin:For example, we're on set on Marin, we're shooting on book locations, the low budget show, we're shooting some neighborhood, and the minute they see the people see these trucks, the film trucks, because everything comes in these trucks, all the equipment, for some reason the leaf blowers show up that day.Phil Hudson:Lawnmowers are on, theyMichael Jamin:Call each other the minutes that the director yells action, suddenly the leaf blowers show up out of everywhere. You can't shoot with a, and so the producers say, just hand out a hundred dollars bills. That's what a producer do. Hand out a hundred dollars just to get 'em to go away. Yep.Phil Hudson:Because it's costing him $10,000 every minute or whatever, every hour. It'sMichael Jamin:Definitely a shakedown with these guys. DoPhil Hudson:I think it's 10 grand an hour on a low budget show? It's 10 grand an hour for the set. I talked to this, I was talking to someone about the cost of that. It's crazy. So it's worth a thousand dollars to keep the machine running,Michael Jamin:But that's what a good producer will do. Also, if it looks like rain, a producer will figure out, alright, we'll work with the associate producer, first assistant. Yeah, first ad to figure out what the shooting schedule will be. Okay, we will move this around. And sometimes the director will get into that conversation as well as the showrunner, but often you'll just turn to the producer. What do you want to do as a showrunner? I don't really give a crap. What do you want to do?Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's the other thing that's interesting that I don't think a lot of people understand is when you're making these projects, I always in my head assume they would be shot linearly and they're not. They're blocked shot because they have to be because the expense of moving the equipment and setting up shots, it's such a time suck, and you're paying all those people for those man hours. It's just easier to shoot. We're in the garage, shoot everything in the garage right now. So you have actors coming in and they're shooting the last scene of a movie, first thing, and they have spent maybe two or three rehearsals with their co-stars, and it's this incredibly emotional moment, and then they have to jump right into the levity of the first act. It's really fascinating that the complexity of a schedule, and that's again, something I would've assumed a producer would do. And no, the first ad does it and then the producer vets it to make sure it's going to meet the budget. Like the line producer.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And then before that, seen a shot. As the part of the showrunner's job, we'll run up to the actors and say, okay, just to refresh your memory, shooting so much out of order. Sometimes we're shooting not just scenes out of order, but we're shooting entire episodes. We're shooting episode two and episode three at the same time.Phil Hudson:Block shooting episodes. We would do that all the time on Tacoma.Michael Jamin:And so we would run up to the actress before we're doing, before each scene, just to refresh your memory, this is where we are in the storyline. This is what you're playing here. If you read it, you might think, okay, I should be happy. But now you're mad at this person from the earlier scene.Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:That's another thing I've seen too, which I think is incredibly valuable, is really good showrunners make the actors sit down and read the scripts out loud with them to make sure that they read everything. Because I've seen a propensity for actors to just read their lines and they don't understand how it fits into the full thing. That's not all actors, it's definitely not all actors, but I've seen a lot of actors do that.Michael Jamin:I have not worked on a show where that was a problem, but now that you mentioned, I have to probably keep my eye open it, but I'm sure in some shows actors can get lazy. But I haven't worked on, because Marin was a little different. Marin, he was the only regular because of the budget and everyone else was a guest star, meaning we would hire that actor for maybe five out of 13 episodes. They were not regular. So regular means you're on every single episode. So if you're a guest star and you're only doing five episodes, you you're going to come prepared. You're not going to sleepwalk your way through it. And so Mark was always prepared, and although often he was always prepared, but easily confused given how much he had to do in every single episode. So you had to go, just remind him where he was emotionally in each episode. But for the actors, the guest stars, they were always well, ohPhil Hudson:Yeah, you're on it.Michael Jamin:You're on it. Yeah, they're on it. They knew they were not goingPhil Hudson:To work. Hats off to circuit codes on that too. What is it? How many days? A two and a half days to shoot an episode.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And towards the end we got three. But that's crazy.Phil Hudson:That's wild. It's crazy wild. We had, I think is it eight days? We would block, shoot. So over two weeks we'd shoot two episodes. So I think it comes out to be like five days per episode, and it's still skinnier teeth getting by to get everything.Michael Jamin:So we were really running gun, and I used to say, as long as someone's finger was in the lens, we got it move on. There wasn't enough time. And so we would shoot everything in a, we would shoot, we block the scene, shoot the first thing in a first run in a master, which is kind like a rehearsal, but you're in a master, so you're everything, you're wide. So if the actor's not perfect, it's fine. You're only going to use the master to open the scene at the end, the scene, and then maybe a couple of times in the middle. And so we'd shoot the master and then go into coverage, which means going immediately to closeups. Wow.Phil Hudson:No mediums or anything like that.Michael Jamin:Very few. And then youPhil Hudson:Didn't have time.Michael Jamin:You don't have time. And occasionally in each episode we would give the director maybe one or two vanity shots like, all right, fine, you want to set up a crane or whatever. But you don't have many of those. But I worked on another show, God, it was so annoying. It was the director, we had more time. And he decided to put a camera, it was a car scene. He wanted to install a camera on the edge of the car so he can get a closeup of the wheel as the car was racing down the street. And we used that chauffer half a second, and it took hours to set the stupid shot up. And I'm like, why are we doing this? What's the point of this? Is anyone impressed by seeing a wheel of a car as it races down? Who cares? That's not what this show is. So sometimes I feel like you can more, you can waste time with shots that are completely unnecessary for the audience is not going to appreciate it more. I don't think anybody's going to appreciate it.Phil Hudson:Well, anyone listening to this who is interested in indie film, what you're describing, and the way you shot Marin is indie film. What is it like on average? And correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's three pages per day is a good shooting day for a TV show or a feature. And a feature might be half a page because they're doing bigger, broader.Michael Jamin:No, we were doing sometimes 11 pages aPhil Hudson:Day. Indies is 10. Yeah, I was going to say in is 10 you're doing,Michael Jamin:Sometimes we did 11. It was like, man, we got a lot to do. A lot to do. It's crazy. Oh yeah.Phil Hudson:I can't imagine that the crew just hustling nonstop.Michael Jamin:Yeah, they were hustling and there's just no time to waste. But when you watch that show, no one thought. No one thought it was like it was sloppy.Phil Hudson:Felt like every other high quality film. And I think what's cool about that too, and I think you learned this when you study indie film, is there's a style that comes out of that. The minimalism almost adds to the value. And then we've talked on the podcast previously about the value of an art director or an art supervisor and how they can come in and really change things. In our Marin, we talked about the photos and they're out of focus, and that's where the art is. The Nissan Cent and everything else that's happening in the scene, the music comes into play to pick things up. But yeah, it's fascinating.Michael Jamin:The thing is, I would prefer, as crazy as that sounds, I would prefer to do another show like that as opposed to a big budget show faster. Let's shoot it faster. I just like it better.Phil Hudson:Buddy system was pretty quick too. I mean, we shot the buddy sixMichael Jamin:Weeks buddy system was equally fast and even still feels when you're on set, it's like, oh, this is so boring. Even still, it takes a long time to get each shot, so I don't get it when, but also, there wasn't a lot of people being self-indulgent on Marin. A lot of actors was like, no, stop horsing around. Know your lines. We don't have time. So it forces people to focus. And you know what? The crew, they loved it. I think they got paid less than other shows. There was no overtime on Marin, but they loved it. They wanted to go home with their family. They didn't want to spend their lives on set. They were happy to work 12, 13 hours a day. Go home.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I want to highlight one thing that you were talking about here. What you're describing as a showrunner is why the showrunner is the executive producer. You have to dictate what shots are important. You have to dictate the stone, the tone and style of the show. You have to make sure your actors are prepared. You have to make sure your actors understand what are going on. And I know there's specific union rules about who's allowed to talk to the actors and who isn't allowed to. The doctors who can talk to the background and who can't. But the fact that the showrunner is there to serve the entirety of the production rather than just the ego of an actor and understanding things at every detail, the nuances of which ash tray, what colors the car we're using, you're making all of those decisions to sculpt and build this that is a producer.Michael Jamin:And often you, let's say a black car and the producer says that car's going to cost a thousand dollars more than a silver car. He is, all right, let's get the silver one. I'll live with it. But also, there were times, plenty of times when we were running Marin where it's like the director would set up a shot and I'd yell off, we're not going to use this shot, so keep it going. I'm telling you, because the short winner has final say over cut, not the director in tv. So I'd say, I'm not going to use this shot. So don't waste time getting it. Spend your time somewhere else on a different shot that you'll like, but not this one. Because that comesPhil Hudson:From decade, a decade plus of doing the work of writing and being on sets. And I think that's another main thing that they're talking about with the strikes, the ability for writers to be on TV sets has gone away. Because unless your showrunner wants to invite you to the set, which praise to Kevin and Steve, they will always invite the writers when their episode is shooting and they can come sit in video village and hang the actors and watch their show get made. But a lot of productions, writers are not on staff and they have to work. So they go get another writing job and they're sitting in another room writing. You don'tMichael Jamin:Learn any of this stuff. Yeah, you're notPhil Hudson:Learning how to be a showrunner. That's a lot of what the writer's guild striking about right now too, is staffing minimums, but also standards of how many people you want to have on set so people can learn the job of running a show.Michael Jamin:Right? There were times where, let's take, I see you're shooting. It's an emotional scene and they're covering in a, well, let's say they shooting in a wide, and it's an emotional scene. I'm not going to play it in a wide, I'm playing in a closeup. It's emotional. I'm going to be in a closeup or let's say it's a two shot. And also I know to make the joke pop, I'm not going to play it in a two shot. I'm going to play, jokes often have to play in singles or overs. So someone says a joke and the other person reacts to it, and it's the reaction that's funny. And if you play it in a two shot, it's not funny. And so there are things like this that you learn on set as an experienced showrunner or whatever writer you'll learn on set that you are not going to learn if you're not there. And so yes, this is partly what the strike is over. Sometimes you're getting shot coverage and they've crossed the line, and so these shots don'tPhil Hudson:Match. Do you want to define that for your listen, soMichael Jamin:Hard to explain without drawing it out, but basically,Phil Hudson:Do you want me to explain it or you want,Michael Jamin:I can explain it, but it's hard to imagine whatPhil Hudson:It's, who will crossing the line? Because you'll see an image of it. But I think for the listeners, you want it in their car.Michael Jamin:So imagine you're shooting, okay, so imagine you are shooting a multi-camera that come on a stage or any play on a stage. So the line separates the actors and the audience. There's a line there, imaginary line. And so the audience never crosses the line to watch come across that line to be on the actor side. And the actors never cross the line to the audience's side. And so when you're shooting a scene, imagine that the cameras are on the audience side. They're always behind that line and they never cross the line. And the problem is once you cross that line with a camera, the images get flipped.Phil Hudson:So it's very disjoint when you cut in post because all of a sudden someone was on the left and now they're on the right. Right.Michael Jamin:So if I'm talking to you in this shot here, we're doing this video podcast. I'm looking right at Phil, and Phil is looking left at me. That's how it's always going to be. I'm always looking right at Phil. And wePhil Hudson:Intentionally talked about that when we were setting up the video podcast. Who's looking right? Who's looking left? So that there was this line, so it wasn't disjointed. I don't set my camera up on the right hand side, and I'm on vacation, so I have this other camera. But normally if you look at it, it looks like we're having a conversation looking at each other.Michael Jamin:For the most part. Maybe in a movie or TV show, the camera's not going to cross the line because it becomes disorienting unless the director wants to disorient you, which is okay, that's a creative choice. ThePhil Hudson:Other place would do it. And there's a book on directing. I read really early on in my studies that talked about this as principle, and it was really hard for me to understand. So that's why I'm saying Google it like Michael was telling you to do. But imagine there's a parade coming down the street and you're watching it from this angle, and if you jump to the other side, it's flipped. That's the flip. But if your camera moves on a dolly around the other side in your brain, you now understand, but you can't go back to the other side now. So you can flip it, but you can't hop scotch back and forth becauseMichael Jamin:That's the T. Yeah. Can reestablish a line. You can always establish a new line. But one of the most difficult things for a director to shoot, it's not a car chase. It's not an exclusion. It's four people sitting at a dining room table. It's wild. That's really hard to shoot.Phil Hudson:The blocking in that is wild. You see, they literally chart it out in a CAD software and it says, this person's looking here and this person's looking here. And you have where your camera goes so that you remember meticulous about that,Michael Jamin:Which is why you'll often see as a cheat, you'll see if it's a table one character sitting on one side and then two characters sitting on the other side, they're not sitting all around the table, they're just sitting on opposite ends of the table. And even that's kind of difficult to shoot. And I'm not a director, although I have director, but I still, when I have to work on scenes like that, I have a pencil and pad making notes to figure out if we're shooting on the right side of the line. It's so complicated.Phil Hudson:Yes, it's a three-dimensional chess. You're just, yeah,Michael Jamin:It's easy. A good DP can do it, no problem. They can see it andPhil Hudson:They'll tell you,Michael Jamin:They'll warn you. Yeah. And the script E, they'll be able to help you as well. But often the director is not so much of a help because that's just not what they're worried about. Or maybe they don't have the experience to worry about it. And so as a showrunner, I busied myself one season of Marin learning all about this, but it took a season to figure out how to do this because I dunno, I'm a slow learner. But anyway, so that has nothing to do with being a producer, but Well,Phil Hudson:It does because you have to pay attention to those things, and you have to know those things. So as an executive in your audience right now, that is not predominantly, we talked about the beginning, but largely screenwriters or people who are interested in film, I think that it's really important for them to understand that you're not just showing up smoking a cigar in a chair, barking orders. You're focused and paying attention. You have binders with notes. You have everyone coming to you with a thousand questions over and over again.Michael Jamin:And I'm lucky because I have a writing partner. Well, if I don't have the answer, I can punt it to him and he'll probably have the answer. But we often divide responsibilities that way. So I understand the camera's a little better. And he does. He does as much of the other. He's really good at figuring out where we are in the script and whose attitude, who knows what at which moment. Like, man, how do you remember all this stuff? But he also looks at me the same way. How do you know all this stuff about the camera? And that's why when people say, I want to be a showrunner, it's like, hold on. Do you know what a showrunner does? It's a hard job. Yeah.Phil Hudson:The Rider's Guild has training programs on this because it is difficult, and again, it's part of the strike because they're, is my opinion, just my opinion. But I think a lot of times, corporations, I get it. Their job is to maximize profits and their job is to satisfy the demands of their shareholders. And it's a quarterly game four times a year. They're just making moves to satisfy that. And the Writer's Guild looking at it as 20, 30 years down the road, they see this hole where there's going to be a gap where no one's going to know how to run a show when this group of showrunners retires or moves on. There's not going to be anyone with that skillset and that knowledge because they don't have the repetitions and the time on set and the observation, and we haven't even talked about post and the value of being in post to learn these things too. And we can't use that shot because this, or there's a better take. The notes that I have to manage and maintain for the showrunner in order to get, I give him the lemi so that he can sit and post and understand what shots were taken, all the scripting notes, everything. They're going through everything to make those decisions and posts. And it's largely that stuff. Then those decisions being made on the day when they're filming. Yeah.Michael Jamin:The thing is, you mentioned the showrunners program at the writer's club. I had a guest on here, Alex Berger, who I worked with many years ago, and he's at the level now where he's ready to get his own show. He just hasn't gotten his own show, but he took the showrunner's program at the writer's club. It's a free program you have to apply for though. And he says that he learned a lot. And I was like, oh, tell me what you learned. And I was interested to know what he learned, run three shows, but it doesn't mean I know. No, I'm doing it because I never went through the program. But I was like, oh, that makes sense.Phil Hudson:I found out about that show. And again, I've talked about this documentary many times, but it's a showrunner, the Art of TV writing. But that's great. And they go in and they talk about that program, and they interview the director of the program and what the job is. And the thing that really stood out to me was quality scripts on time. That's the main thing. That's your job. That is the linchpin. And my assistant, Kevin, I hired an assistant in my agency who's a script coordinator, and he worked on a bunch of shows, but he was telling that one of the shows he was working on got canceled because the showrunner was not turning in scripts on time. And a very well known showrunner too.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it definitely happens. And on most of the shows we do, we try to get all the scripts done in pre-production. And the crew, the production staff is so grateful because that way they can plan ahead. They can decide which episodes to shoot. It's a hard enough job as it is without getting the script the night before. Imagine getting the script the night before and then telling 'em, okay, now you have to find, I don't know, a roller rink to shoot in the day the next day. How are they going to do that? So you have to get, this is when things get dangerous, when people are overworked or working late and cutting corners. So it's the job of the showrunner. And I think what the problem is, is I've been lucky I've had studios because these low budget shows that the studios are very, for the most part, hands off and they let you do your job. But on a high budget show, the studio may throw out a script the night before. We don't like it. And it's like, well, damn, do you understand what kind of stress this is going to put? Not just on the showrunner, but the entire crew inPhil Hudson:The families of the crew and the showroom as well. I know there are people on our crew who are working on the reshoots of Thor Love and Thunder, and they were working 14 hour days, seven days a week for two weeks straight. Terrible. And it is just like, Hey, it's going to make a billion dollars. We'll pay all of the overages and it'll all come out in the wash. We just got to get it done. And they did it shooting on a studio in Burbank, and then they have to drive home at three or four in the morning and then have turnaround.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh, I mean, these crew members really hard, hard, it can be a hard job. It could be a hard life. And soPhil Hudson:Yeah, you're getting home at 4:00 AM and then going to bed, you miss your kids. You wake up. I mean, even just, and I'll just say this, when I had my first kid, we were shooting quasi, my kid was almost a year old, and there were days I didn't see my kid, weeks. I didn't see my kid leave in the morning before she got up. And I'd come home before she went to bed or after she went to bed. That's heartbreaking.Michael Jamin:Heartbreaking. I hate that. Right.Phil Hudson:So it's what it was, and it was 30 days of that, and then it was over, and I was just very gratefulMichael Jamin:At, you can see the end in sight. At least you can go, okay, it's 30 days. I could. But if this is your life and okay, it's 30 days now, but your next movie is also 30 days, and then 30 days after that, a different movie, that becomes really hard. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Well, I think that speaks to as well, what your priorities are and what you want out of life. We talk about how if you want to be a writer, you have to learn how to write and you have to write for free, and you have to get notes and get feedback. You have to learn all these skillset sets. But I don't think a lot of people think about the quality of life that they want to have. And there are a lot of people, I think when I told you I was having a kid, you were telling me that you had an assistant or someone that you knew was a really good writer, really talented, and they just moved out of LA because it just no longer fit their family lifestyle. I can't remember who you were telling me.Michael Jamin:I don't remember who that was.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I remember I had the conversation. It was like literally you were telling them that. And then I was like, well, by the way, I'm having a kid after that. Because things shift and things change. Priorities change when you have a family, priorities. If you don't want to have a family and you're happy and you just want to make a career awesome and good for you, it's a balance. And I have a very supportive wife who lets me chase my dreams and do my things, and she hopes,Michael Jamin:But it could also be feast or famine. It can also be, you don't want to turn down this job. You don't know when your next job's coming. SoPhil Hudson:Yeah, imagine if I didn't have an agency that I'd built for the last decade. I'd be in a real bad spot right now with two kids. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Exactly. Yeah, right. There are aPhil Hudson:Lot of people likeMichael Jamin:That. I said, you're smart to have this other income stream, multiple income streams in Hollywood. Yeah. Well, there we go, Phil.Phil Hudson:Good stuff. Any other thoughts on producing orMichael Jamin:I don't know. I think I hit it. Do you have anything you want to add to this?Phil Hudson:No, I think it was a very helpful conversation. I hope people, I found it very enjoyable personally. I mean, just hearing you talk about these things and the nuances, it's just kind of sets the stage for what the job really is. And I think the mistake or the folly we often run into as creatives is we have this delusion of grandeur that we're going to make it in Hollywood and we're going to win an Oscar, and we're going to do these things. And you have to have a little bit of that suspension of disbelief, which is what we ask our audience to have. We have to suspend our disbelief about the reality of what our world looks like to chase our dreams and our goals, but we also need to be grounded and understand what the stakes are. And I think that's one of the values that you bring in the podcast. And what we see from people talking about is just, we just read the reviews the other day, just going through a bunch of 'em, and you and I we're really appreciative for anybody who's leaving reviews. So if you enjoy,Michael Jamin:Yeah, please go and leave us a review on Apple, if you like ourPhil Hudson:Show on iTunes. Yeah. But yeah, it's like people are just like, there's gold. Every episode's full of gold and wisdom. I just really think that it's a credit to your realistic take on of this, Michael. I just think you're just preparing another generation of writers and producers and creatives to just understand. You may never make it in the way you think you will, but it's still worth pursuing if you want to just keep doing it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah, and that's a good point because I do know before I wrap it up, I have spoken with people who chase the money after college because for various reasons and all that may be completely legit, maybe they didn't grow up with money, and so having money in the pocket really felt good, some stability, but then they reach a certain age where the money does no longer fill the hole, and so then they start chasing, they want to do something a little more creative with their life.Phil Hudson:There's a Ben Fold song called The Ascent of Stan, and it's talking about this corporate guy who gets laid off after 30 years and he goes home and he puts his slide deck in and he projects it onto the wall and traces it because he's going to paint this thing and it's just all pointless. What has my, basically when it's like, what has my life been, I put 20, 30 years into this corporation and they just escorted me out one day and here I am just trying to find my art again. And it's like, what's the point? And that's reality. ButMichael Jamin:You don't need anyone's permission to start making your art today. Maybe we'll talk more about that in another podcast, but yeah, don't wait for, just start doing it. Start creating it. Love it. Alright everyone, thank you so much. We got a lot of good free stuff on my website. Go visit it and you can get all the things. You can get a free screenwriting lesson. You can get an invitation to my free screenwriting webinar, which we do every few weeks. Got another one coming up. Well, I dunno when this airs, who knows? There'sPhil Hudson:Always one coming up at this point, which is, there's always one, a lot of really good feedback.Michael Jamin:You can learn more about my book, a Paper Orchestra. When that drops, you can see me on tour. You can just get the book, the audio book working on. You can get a sample script that I wrote or a couple simple scripts you could get. What else can you get,Phil Hudson:Phil? The newsletter, weeklyMichael Jamin:Newsletter we give away. Phil's in charge all giving Phil's in charge of giving it all away. IPhil Hudson:Just take from Michael guys, it's allMichael Jamin:He gives it away.Phil Hudson:I'm Robin Hood and we're just handing it to the masses,Michael Jamin:But it's all go to michaeljamin.com.Phil Hudson:Asked me to give it away. To be clear, everyone, Michael's like, Hey, if I wanted to learn from someone, I don't want to read their script. Can we put my scripts up here? I'm like, yeah, I'll figure out how to make the form and the email auto drip campaign work and make sure the tags are functioning.Michael Jamin:Yep. He's the digital marketer. So you go check out ruck ss e o as well if you're all your digital marketing needs. Okay, everyone, thank you so much. Until next week, keep writing.Phil Hudson:Thanks guys.This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, for the 100th episode we have Writer/Actor/Executive Producer Steve Lemme (Super Troopers, Beer Fest, Tacoma FD and many many more) talk about his early career, his on-going collaboration with Kevin Heffernan and doing stand up.Show NotesSteve Lemme on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0501399/Steve Lemme on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveLemmeSteve Lemme on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemme/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptSteve Lemme:Some guys were psyched that I had gotten it out there and the studio was psyched because fucking, it was massive. It was a massive announcement that got all those views. And so it was like, then the guys that were kind of mad about it were like, but don't feel like you did the right thing here. What you did was wrong. I was like, I know what I did was wrong. I'll never do it again. They're like, so don't feel justified. I'm like, I know, but then guys are looking at each other. But it is pretty fucking sweet and I definitely did the wrong thing and I would not advise that to anybody.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters need to hear this with Michael lemin.Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm Michael and this is episode 100 of this podcast. And as an honor, I thought I would bestow this great honor onto the man. Yes. Yeah, I'm giving you the honor. It's an honor for you Lemme onto the man who's kept me employed for the past four years or more. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening to the podcast in your car, please pull over and give a warm round of applause to Mr. Steven Lemme. Lemme.Lemme tell people who you are, just by the way, this is the in case they don't know. So Lemme, as we call him, is the star and exec creator and executive producer showrunner of the show. I'm currently running on Tacoma fd, but you may know him. He's got a long track record of indie movies. We're going to talk about how he got these old made, including Super Troopers, bottle Cruiser Club, dread Beer Fest, lamb and Salmon, a bunch of stuff, including the latest one is quasi. I know I'm skipping over your complete filmography, but I want to give you a chance to talk. Let me thank you for being on my show here.Steve Lemme:I feel like you could just go on forever talking about me.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that would be the ideal Pat podcast for you. Just tell me more about me.Steve Lemme:I would prefer that. I would prefer that.Michael Jamin:Why? Is that? Because you're tired of telling your story over and over?Steve Lemme:No, I don't really get tired speaking about myself, but what I get less tired of is like I've gone and done some publicity lately. For instance, I did watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen. Do you know what that show is?Michael Jamin:No, I didn't know that. Where is that?Steve Lemme:It's on the Bravo Channel. All those shows.Michael Jamin:All the shows you don't watch. Yeah. Yeah.Steve Lemme:I watch them. I watch because,Michael Jamin:Because your wife watches them.Steve Lemme:Well, that's exactly how a lot of people get sucked into it. It's because somebody else is watching and you walk through the room and you're like, what stupid show are you watching? I started watching, it was Real Housewives of New Jersey, and I walked through, I was like, who are these fucking people? And my wife was like, it's Real Housewives of New Jersey. They're just, last week, this chick right here flipped up a table and called this other one a prostitution whore. And then they actually showed it on the tv. They replayed what happened last week in a flashback. I was like, wait a second, hold on. And I sat down and I was like, hold on a second. Hold on a second. What happened? Why would she flip up a table? What's wrong with her? And she's like, well, that's the thing she's on. And there was born another fan of these shows. And then you try to resist.Michael Jamin:But wait, I want to know, you got to answer the question though. Why is it you didn't want to talk about yourself in the beginning? I asked you, is it because you do so much publicity?Steve Lemme:I got off track, I got off track, but it's not that I don't want to talk about myself becauseMichael Jamin:I think it must get hard answering the same thing over andSteve Lemme:Over again again. Well, sometimes I fascinate myself, Michael, and so I find great comfort in hearing myself speak while I'm saying it. I'm like, oh, this is nice. What I'm saying right now is good. And I'm enjoying my own company. I'm a big believer in actually my way into the arts was my mom saying, because I didn't have a lot of money growing up. And actually that's actually, it's mostly true, but it's more that my mom was a teacher at a really wealthy private school. And so whatever is the reality or not, and I suspect it actually is real. I didn't have much money growing up. It felt less to maybe I was hanging out with people that had, it's like the kind where after Christmas, or you go to their house before Christmas and there's a million presents under the tree.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's right. AndSteve Lemme:You're like, Jesus, I've got two. And even that's better than a lot of people. That's why I hesitate to complain about it and put myself in that place. But when I was a kid, I would complain about not having toys and my mom would hand me paper and crayons and pencil and pen and scissors and scotch tape and say, make something, entertain yourself. And she would say, if you can't have fun with yourself, you'll never be happy. And so, by the way, am I allowed to be dirty on this podcast?Michael Jamin:You can say whatever you want to say.Steve Lemme:I was about to make a masturbation joke, which I know youMichael Jamin:Would like. I was already there.Steve Lemme:But anyway, my point is, so now that's totally off the market.Michael Jamin:You're saying this. This is your introduction to the arts,Steve Lemme:Right? So anyway, oh, I was saying I enjoy spending time with myself, the arts, but the point is I went on Andy Cohen, watch What Happens Live. And this has happened so many times where the intro, the way they introduce you is dog shit. And he didn't mention the movies, he didn't mention Broken Lizard. He just said he's on a new TV series on Hulu called QuasiMichael Jamin:Thanks for getting everything wrong,Steve Lemme:Which was not true either. And then it's like, look, I'm aware that a lot of, there is a younger generation of people who aren't familiar with Broken Lizard or those movies or Super Troopers or Beer Fest or anything like that, or they haven't watched it, but there are fans there. And also a lot of times if I don't know my mustache, people won't recognize me, but if they say it, if you get a nice intro, at least it gives you some credibility. But in this case, I was some jackass at the bar, the celebrity bartender. And so anyway, I like a good intro. I like to get stroked.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Did I stroke you enough when I brought you on?Steve Lemme:You did. You did. But I could have listened to more. YouMichael Jamin:Could to the thing about you, and I've said this before and I'll say it publicly, there are one of the great joys of working with you is that you are an open book when you talk about stories from your past and you're brutally honest. And the best comedians that I've worked with are the same way. Mark Merrim is the same way. He'd say things in the room, you'd be like, whoa, I can't believe you're telling me this. And you're the same way. So it makes it so much easier to write for you because you're just being vulnerable and you're sharing yourself and there's no judgment there. It's just funny.Steve Lemme:Thank you for saying that. I know that about myself. Kevin will say, I have no filter. That's what he will say, but I'll tell him he's too filtered.Michael Jamin:Right?Steve Lemme:I'll say, Kevin, you need to open up a little bit and share of yourself. Interesting. But it also puts the other writers at ease and encourages them to tell stories. It's like if I'm willing to tell the story about, again, it's like a lot of these things tend to wind up being a little bit crass, but it's like if I'm willing to tell a disgusting story about myself or a story where I embarrass myself horribly,Michael Jamin:Or a sex dream you had, for example,Steve Lemme:I've had severalMichael Jamin:With one of your friends.Steve Lemme:Okay.Michael Jamin:I don't want to say who, that's a great example.Steve Lemme:No. So that's a great example. So can you hear the noise? We'reMichael Jamin:Doing an interview here.Steve Lemme:My wife has come in with the children, so she doesn't know, and I'm displaced. I don't have an office with doors anymore, so I'm,Michael Jamin:There's some damage to his house. So he's got to do an impromptuSteve Lemme:Yeah, the whole, but go ahead side of the house is flooded. Okay. So the story is, so Michael and I have, I'll even say the guy's name.Michael Jamin:Yeah, okay.Steve Lemme:It makes it better. We have a common friend named Eric Levy. You grew up with him in Fresh Chester?Michael Jamin:Yes, in high school. Yeah.Steve Lemme:He and I went to college together, and I don't even know if this is proper improper to say, but I'm not gay and neither is he. But I had a dream about him where he showed up at my house with 50 bags of McDonald's burgers and then it cuts to me fucking him in the ass. But he was on top of me.Michael Jamin:I still love this story and then go on.Steve Lemme:But I told the story because whatever we were riffing on, it was like, what about those? And then I told him about it.Michael Jamin:Yes. And how did he take videos? ISteve Lemme:Called him up laughing the next morning and was like, holy shit, this is so fucking funny. I had this dream about it. You're never going to believe it. And there's a lot of guys who would be like, I'm taking that one to the grave. But the additional joke for me is that when I have with Reba McIntyre, I had a sex dream about her. And to me, when you have a sex dream about somebody, what's the difference between actually having sex with them? Because in real life, if you have sex with somebody afterwards, it's just a memory and it lives longer in your memory. And so to me, it's like if you have a vivid sex dream about Reeb McIntyre, which I did, and then it lives on in your memory, it kind of counts.Michael Jamin:But no, because no consent. She didn't consent to that either. Did Levy,Steve Lemme:You're sayingMichael Jamin:I'm was a nonconsensual sex dream that you had with both of them?Steve Lemme:I don't know. I feel like there's a blurry line there.Michael Jamin:But this is just a good example. You told this story probably the first year to call him after you in the writer's room. And I just remember laughing my ass off thinking, oh my God, this guy's going to be game for pretty much everything we pitch. And this makes easier to write.Steve Lemme:Well, and that's why you and I wound up sitting next to each other because you would always mutter filthy little offerings under your breath to me.Michael Jamin:You would enjoy them. Yeah,Steve Lemme:I didn't. I enjoyed them quite a bit. I enjoyed,Michael Jamin:Lemme ask you that, because I don't know if I've ever asked you this or maybe I forgot. We met you. The show had just gotten picked up and we met through, we had the same management company, right? Yeah, of course weSteve Lemme:Did. I used to be with them. I'm not with them anymore, but Kevin is still with them.Michael Jamin:And that's how we had that meeting. And did you meet with other writers at our level or did you just laise out, say, fuck, we'll just hire these guys. I don't want to meet more people.Steve Lemme:Kevin and I get in trouble like that. We oftentimes do hire the first person we meet, which was you,Michael Jamin:Thank God.Steve Lemme:Yeah. But I think we did. God, they're really making a racket over there. I did. We did meet with one other set of showrunners, I believe. But then what happens anyway, if Kevin and I get past the first interview and make it to the second one by the second one, we're definitely bored and we realize we've made a mistake by prolonging this process. So with us with timing is key. If you get in with us early, if you ever hear about a Lemme Heffernan gig, get your resume to us immediately because youMichael Jamin:Hire the first person you seeSteve Lemme:You got the job. Yeah.Michael Jamin:That's so funny. I know you're good that way. What is it like, I haven't asked you this question, but you do most, you don't do all your projects with Kevin, you do a lot of your projects with him or ever it now, is it everything?Steve Lemme:No, I have some side projects.Michael Jamin:How do you decide what you're doing with him and what you're not doing?Steve Lemme:Well, I try to do most things with Kevin, and I think Kevin would agree to this. For whatever reason, I sometimes find that Kevin is a little tougher to drag into things. I believe he will corroborate this. So I had the idea, we've kicked around the notion of firefighters for a while, but I said to him, let's do it.And then he said, what's the hook going to be? And I came back with this rainiest city in the country hook because it was super troopers, the most asserted stretch of highway in the country. And even then I had to drag him and I want to be careful with this because we developed a show then together and really fleshed it out. So it's like, and he has also had many ideas in those TV sessions. He also had some ideas that he wanted to do, but the animation thing now is another one I felt. I feel like it took me a long time to just get him to really be into it.Michael Jamin:I know it did.Steve Lemme:And actually I'm going to tell you, I think he's only finally into it now. Today,Michael Jamin:Today, todaySteve Lemme:For the last few weeks I We'll tell the story. We'll tell the story. But now and again, to be fair, it's like I was bringing it up probably two years ago, maybe longer, and he would say, okay, sure. But then we'd be writing the series or then we went into pre-production on quasi, which he was directing, but I never just ever got the sense that he really wanted to do it.Michael Jamin:But do you get the sense that he ever wants to do anything?Steve Lemme:No, and that's my point. That's my point. And what I realized with Kevin, and it's fine again, it's like because we're busy, but sometimes you just have to move the ball forward and he'll tell me the same thing just in general about things, and I actually think this is true in Hollywood anyway, if you want to do something, you just have to move the ball forward on your own if you can't get interest. And eventually at some point there's like, okay, this is what I've got.Michael Jamin:Are you, you know what though? When I talk about you, I talk about you guys specifically when I talk about people who've done inspiring things, because when I describe what you broken lizard, I describe you as Hollywood outsiders. There are ways that you can call the traditional way and the way you guys came, you just did it. You didn't ask for permission, you did it and you created a career from yourself and became so valuable that Hollywood now wants you as opposed to you begging Hollywood. It's the other way around.Steve Lemme:I think we're still begging Hollywood. I think with Supert Troopers three and our relationship with Searchlight has evolved to the point where the studio has said, we want to work with you. And that's how we got quasi and that's how we got Supert Troopers two, but Supert Troopers two, they were reluctant, but that's the way the business works. Then that movie did well and there were new studio heads and it's like, okay, this is a new relationship that this's really healthy. I think that everything that Tevin has ever gotten and that I have ever gotten, we have gotten for ourselves. Even though we have agents and I have great agents and managers who bring me things NowMichael Jamin:Are they bringing you, what talent are they bringing you ideas? What are they bringing you?Steve Lemme:My management and my agency will bring me TV and movie ideas to potentiallyMichael Jamin:For who?Steve Lemme:My management company. They have a big lit department, a big book and division, and so does my agency. So my management is Gotham Group, and then my agency is c a a and that every Friday, c a a sends me books, the books that are out, the new books and it's like, yeah, I mean I've never gone down that road. There was only one book I wanted to buy and then the rights to, and then my old manager poo-pooed the idea. And then I found out that three months later, Showtime bought that book and I was like, you son of a bitch. ButMichael Jamin:Wait, when they're sending are these best, these are, how are they getting the books? I don't know anything about it. They're getting bestsellers. These are the bestseller lists, these books.Steve Lemme:So my management company represents authors and c a A. They have a literature, a book literature division in New York City that represents writers and or publishers. I'm not sure really how it works, but I'm just telling you, every Friday I get a list of these things and howMichael Jamin:Interesting it is. It's so funny because you're getting an email list. I don't get an email list of books from U T A, how hard is it to put me on an email list?Steve Lemme:And that's the thing. And the thing is it's been years now and I've never even responded to the email. Then I think that I'm on an automated list now, which is actually, it's nice. I should actually look at the thing. I should look at the list.Michael Jamin:Are there PDFs attached or you request a book?Steve Lemme:I'll forward it to you on the side.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. I'm just curious how Hollywood worksSteve Lemme:Well, but I think it works. It's so funny. It works so differently in every way. In fact, the joke that Kevin and I have, and I'll finish speaking about Kevin and the animation thing, but because kind of a funny story, but Kevin and I have always marveled at how Hollywood never has a shortage of original ways to screw you over.Michael Jamin:Oh, yes.Steve Lemme:And right now we've got another one going, which is that we've got the strike going and Kevin and I have a TV show that we can't promote, and it's like we worked really hard on it. We worked for over a year on it. We actually got pushed, the release got pushed six months or five months because that network in shambles. And then three weeks before it's going to come out, they say it's going to come out in July and then the strike happens. And we had been recording podcasts that would be accompany pieces with the episodes, and my older son acted in last week's episode. I couldn't promote it. My younger son is acting in this week's episode, I can't talk about it. And it's like, that's actually one of the most heartbreaking parts is that I got to act with one son in a scene. And where he was playing, me as a young boy, my character was a young boy and I was playing his grandfather. And then my other son, I got to direct in a scene where he gets to say dirty words and I can't talk about it. And I'm like, Jesus, what a screw here.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's so fun, by the way. I know I'm hopping around, but what's it like when your comedy soup, broken lizard, is it weird to be acting against these same people over and over again and pretending, okay, now today we're pretending to be one thing, and I'm yelling at you, but we're actually friends on the side. Is that weird? Is there a moment when you're acting like, wait a minute, we're best friends?Steve Lemme:No, because funny, because Kevin and I, first of all with Kevin, he and I have now done so many, so much together and so many emotional scenes together. But we'd like to say it's so emotion. We don't deal with emotion. We deal with foam motion, as you know. And so it's like if you watch quasi, he and I have a few big blowup scenes with voice cracking and Tacoma. We have plenty of scenes where we yell at each other and sometimes we get emotional with each other. And I always think it's funny for us, it's also like we've been friends so long and we're so on each other's nerves all the time that these things are therapy sessions. Because a lot of the time in the show we're discussing things that bother him about me and me about him. And soMichael Jamin:Is there a moment where you're in the scene, you're supposed to be in character, and then suddenly you check, you go, wait a minute, he's just doing his thing and I'm doing my thing. And we're both doing make believe.Steve Lemme:The only time I ever feel that way is if we start improvising. And he starts, we had one, I can't remember what the episode was, but he said, oh, I know it was the episode, the chili Cookoff where he's fucked up on dental drugs. He had his wisdom teeth removed and he improvised a line like, oh, you must be, he's like, are we on a rollercoaster? Are we on a rollercoaster? He's like, oh, hey. Hey Eddie, you have to be this tall to ride this roller coaster. And I was like, well, and there's a maximum weight limit as well. And I felt bad about that. I was like, it didn't matter that he had made a short joke at me. At first, I felt bad that I had made a fat joke, and that happens periodically. I throw one out probably once every three months. So once a quarter I'll make a heavy guy joke.Michael Jamin:Is it weird though hanging out with him outside of work though, when you see each other so much?Steve Lemme:I think I'm good for him. The other day, a couple of months ago, I was like, why don't we just go out and hang out? And he's like, I see you every day. And I was like, that's exactly why we should hang out. We see each other every day because we are working together, but let's go have some beers and some tacos and have some laughs and not work.Michael Jamin:And did you do that?Steve Lemme:Yeah. And it's funny because one of my favorite pastimes is being right over a Kevin. I don't mean in the collaborative sense, but when my point of view is correct and yours is incorrect, which it was in that case, he was like, okay,Okay, fine. Alright, so let's go back to the animation thing. I was saying, I don't even think so with the animations, it took a while for me to get him. He would agree in theory, but then it was like there was never any, whenever he would talk about upcoming projects, I'd always be like, and we should talk about animation one of these days. He'd be like, yeah, okay. And I couldn't get him to engage. And then even I said, finally, let's just sit down. Just give me five minutes. I'm going to go through a list of animation ideas and let's discuss them. He said, okay. And so I sent them to him in advance and literally it was one line. It was like the lumberjacks, it was whatever, and including the one that we're working on. And he said, okay, I like these and that's fine.That's all I needed. And so then I started to flesh those things out and I would show them to him. Now, see, Kevin is a machine. He's a computer, and so if you really want to get his attention, you have to show him a piece of paper with something on it, and he puts it in his pile and he makes a list. And so then a week later I'll be like, have you had a chance to read the thing? And so what Kevin respects is work, which a lot of people do, it's in a creative process. It's like, don't tell me you don't like a joke if you don't have a replacement idea or don't say like, Hey, let's work on something and bother me about it if it's not real, if you just want me to actually make the first step. And so it's like if you give him the first step and it's like, Hey, I've done this work.He respects that, and so he'll read it. So then it was funny then because he was doing, he was editing quasi and we were in the writer's room for season four. You guys are busy. And I said, I'll do all the work on the animation thing. And so it's like I started to flesh it out and then I'd sent him this, the pitch document, here are the characters. And we started to get it together and what we were going to do, and the plan was that during a hiatus, we were going to wind up pitching these two producers who had been the president and vice president of True tv, and they were the ones who bought Tacoma FD and put us on the air, and they'd done everything that Thursday night with us in Practical Jokers. We were winning cable and they were beating t b s, their sister company, and then at t took over and they just got punted.So they did everything and they got fired, but we always had a good relationship and we always said, Hey, we'll work together again. At some point they approached me and they said, Hey, do you want to do some animated? We've got something going. So the idea then I told Kevin was like, we're going to pitch this during the first hiatus. And the hiatus for people who don't know is that after we shoot in blocks, so we shot the first three episodes in one block and Kevin directed all of them, and we took a week off to scout locations for the second block and prep, and that was the block I was directed. And so that was two more episodes, but in that first week, then we were ready to pitch Chris and Marissa. And so even the night before the pitch, I kept saying to Kevin, I was, so tomorrow we are pitching Chris and Marissa.He's like, but it's not like a pitch though. It's a conversation. I was like, well, it actually is a pitch. He's like, but it's not like a formal pitch. We're just talking to 'em. I'm like, no, we're actually pitching them. I'm pitching them the show, but don't worry. I'll do all the talking. And he said, fine. And so the next day we got on the Zoom with them. I pitched them the show, they seemed to love it, and we went our separate ways and they brought it to their studio that they're involved with. And three days later, we found out that studio was going to make an offer, which they did. And then we negotiated that offer for several months, which a lot of people who are not in Hollywood don't realize that sometimes negotiations can take nine months, sometimes a year. In this case, I think it was a six month thing. And in that period of time, we approached you guys, brought you guys in, and then we went to our first meeting with them after the deal. All the deal had been signed and everything. And you remember we were outside?Michael Jamin:Yes.Steve Lemme:Kevin asked me, he was like, have we,Michael Jamin:I asked Kevin, it started, I asked Kevin. Kevin didn't have the answer, so he asked you.Steve Lemme:Yeah, and the question was,Michael Jamin:Have we sold this?Steve Lemme:Have we actually sold this then? And the reason you asked that for people who don't know is most commonly, certainly before the streamers and the network time, there was something called an if come offer. And this was, I think the norm for most people who hadn't done anything. I went to a studio and I said, I've got an idea for a TV show. They might say, Hey, we love it. We're going to make you an if come offer. And what that is is we'll pay you X amount of dollars if a network says they want to do the show. And if not, we're not paying you anything. But because we've made you this offer, you're with us. And that was the norm. And we took that and we would negotiate that. We would negotiate a deal that we're not getting paid on unless somebody else says yes. And it's called an if come offer. And so that was the nature of that question. Have we actually sold this thing? Are we getting paid? And Kevin asked me and I was like, yes, we've sold it. But he put so much doubt into me that it was like, I think we're pitching again.So then we went in and sat with our executive producers, the people who had bought it, the producers who had brought us to them and sold it for us. And I pitched it again, but now I was nervous. I didn't do a great job pitching.Michael Jamin:No, you did great. You did great. And they loved it.Steve Lemme:But then it turns out, yes, we had sold it. We were going to get paid and we were moving forward. So then Kevin was very surprised. He's like, oh, I gave shit about that. And even then, he wasn't totally on board until we saw the animation. We were writing the script and he was like, yes, fine. It's still abstract. But it wasn't until we got into when they sent us potential sketches and artwork for all the characters and the locations and the scenes and settings that he said to me for the first time, this is really cool.Michael Jamin:Oh, good.Steve Lemme:There's a whole other world in Hollywood that we've never been a part of that we're a part of now. I was like, yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Lemme:So anyway.Michael Jamin:That's hilarious. How would you decide what projects not to do with them then?Steve Lemme:Oh,Michael Jamin:I don't think, do you have many? You've done some, but why would you not do a project with them?Steve Lemme:It just depends. And it's funny. There are times where I actually think I've said to him, and I mean this, that even if I do something separately, we'll still produce it with our production company. He'll be involved. I have a TV script that I've been working on for a long time that I probably wrote it back in 2009, and it's very much about that period, my high school years when I was at this elite private school and I was feeling like an outsider, but I wasn't an outsider. I had a great group of friends, and I was actually, I hate to say it, but I was fairly popular, but I felt like I didn't belong at this place. I almost felt like an imposter. And we were there, not because we were wealthy, which it was the school full of wealthy people because my mom had been a teacher there, and now she was gone there. So I didn't, they had only given me a partial scholarship when I was three when I first went there. But that's aMichael Jamin:Good idea. I think that could sell. That's a good idea.Steve Lemme:Well, and there was more to it, which is that I also had this job, I worked as a back elevator manBecause one of my friends, his family was so wealthy, they owned all these buildings in New York City, and he got me a job. I made $10 an hour working as a back elevator man slash janitor, luxury high-rise building in New York City that some people from my high school lived at, which was really hard to have them see me. But more importantly, I worked with these guys down in the basement who were lifers. There was a murderer down there who had fled the Dominican Republic. He had decapitated a guy, and he is a great guy. He's a great guy. He had decapitated a guy after a cock fight, he had a fighting bird. And by the way, he's telling me this story with a thick Dominican accent. He keeps saying, and my cock defeated the other guy's cock. And I'm like, whoa, I'm only 15 years old at this point in time. And the guy picked up his dead cock and theMichael Jamin:CockSteve Lemme:His lifeless dead bloody cock. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Flacid cock.Steve Lemme:Yeah. And the claw and the beaker sharpened on these creatures and this guy,Michael Jamin:Did they sharpen them for the fights? Yeah. Wow, that sounds awful. You just made something bad, even worse.Steve Lemme:I know. Well, so then this guy, the loser, picked up his dead bloody flacid, lifeless cock and slapped my coworker across the cheek with it, and the beak cut his cheek. My coworker told me this over lunch break. He was like, I went home and I calmly sharpened my machete and I went to his house and I knocked on the door. He opened the door and I cut his head off and he said, and that is when I came to America.Michael Jamin:Wow.Steve Lemme:Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I was working down there with these guys, and the irony was that they would get taxes taken out of their paychecks. And I, I was a student, and so I was actually making more than these guys, but they also thought I was a rich kid. I was friends with the owner of the building and they knew that. And to them, I was the richest guy in the world, and I was going to a prep school. I had my whole future ahead of me. So I didn't kind of belong in that world either.Michael Jamin:It's a little flamingo kid.Steve Lemme:There was some flamingo kid there. Yeah. I was also a break dancer and a professional dancer.Michael Jamin:I knowSteve Lemme:That. And I was not really welcome in that community. So anyway,Michael Jamin:Why are you sitting on this? You should get that. Well, there's a strike. I wouldn't wait much longer on it.Steve Lemme:I sent the script out back in 2009, and it was incredibly well received, but this is pre streamers, and I sent it to H B O in Showtime, and I had a meeting with the president of H B O who, she was like, I love your script. I love your script, but I can't do a show about a 14 year old protagonist. And she said, but bring me everything you've got, and this is pre everything interesting. It's pre this new golden age of television. And same at Showtime. I had the same conversation. She's like, the lady was like, I love it. Absolutely love it.Michael Jamin:It was the 14 year old protagonist. That's such an odd thing because everybody hates Chris and Wonder years. There's plenty of shows about,Steve Lemme:But it was R-rated, it was an honest look. It was also part of the pitch was I see all these, when you see high school shows about in New York City, for instance, about a wealthy school, the rich kids are so fucked upAnd so evil and so conniving, and that wasn't my experience. And it was also like, or it's incredibly, incredibly cliquey with the fucking bully rich kids or the scummy fucking drug using druggies. I was like, that wasn't my experience at all, or it's incredibly angst-ridden. And I was like, I feel like there were a lot of incredibly fun experimental times. Yes, there were painful times, but there were also a lot of incredible times, and I never saw a good mixture of those things. Anyway, so I have been, and also the funny thing, the honest part was I made masturbation a heavy part of the show, the Cold Open. My character is masturbating in the shower, and his dad's trying to get inMichael Jamin:AndSteve Lemme:It's like a freeze frame. He's looking at the doorknob and the whole thing is that irony and the hypocrisy of the fact that in high school, your hormones are going raging and you're all masturbating, or the boys certainly were, can't speak to the girls, but no one would talk about it. And so my friends and I would be like, one of my friends would be like, you whack off. I'd be like, fuck no, I don't whack off. I'm not gay. And he's like, no, I know. I've never even touched my dick. I've never even touched my dick. How about you? You whack off. I was like, no fucking way. Do I whack off? And then it's like, but I know you whack off. He's like, fuck you, I don't whack off. And you're like, yeah, you whack off. Everybody's dying to get home and fucking beat off. I was a part of theMichael Jamin:Script dying to get home.Steve Lemme:So I've toned that part down in the script. I literally am revising it right now. I found a great thing that I wanted to include in it, a couple of new things. So I'm writing it. I'm using the strike to write.Michael Jamin:Well, sure. Everyone should be, I guess. But what about you guys also do a lot of standup, which is very different. Do you have a preference to how you spend your days?Steve Lemme:It makes me sad that I haven't done standup in five years.Michael Jamin:Really? Well, what's stopping you?Steve Lemme:Well, now, nothing. And I was thinking about it today, I am like, I should write a new set. Kevin and I filmed our third special right before we sold Tacoma. And when we sold Tacoma, it was when Super Troopers two was coming out. And so we did a few more live shows to promote Tacoma, but then we never had time because then it was like we were writing the season, we got renewed for season two, and then it's like, it's so much work. And even after we write and then we go right into shooting, and then after shooting, the hardest part of the show process is the six months of editing. And then it's like, IMichael Jamin:Think that's the best part. Because you're not on set. It's not as exhausting.Steve Lemme:Well, it's not as physically exhausting. Correct. And I mean, look, now in the days of Zoom, I'm home. I actually, I love it, but there's no time to, that's a nine to 6:00 PM or 11:00 PM job depending on what day of the week it is and what time of the editing process. I'm here with my family. And so it's like we've been fortunate enough to have four seasons where we have a week or two off, and then we have to start getting the writer's room together again. I'm not complaining about at all. I'm not even grousing. The one thing I really enjoyed doing for 10 years before we got that show was standup comedy, which you've done,Michael Jamin:But I mean, I did in college, so I was never at your level where I was touring and booking rooms.Steve Lemme:Well, but you do tour with a one man show and you do.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's a little different. Yeah, it's not standup. Yeah,Steve Lemme:It's a little different, but it's still performing and getting out there and trying out material. I know if you have a story, I mean, I haven't seen your show,Michael Jamin:You must come. But what I find about it is, and I was talking about this with Taylor Swift, she's got this three hour concert, and when I was performing,Steve Lemme:Wait, wait, wait. You talked about this with TaylorMichael Jamin:Swift? No, I said this with my daughter about Taylor Swift's show.Steve Lemme:That's aMichael Jamin:Different big difference. Yeah. I got to clarify. So Taylor Swift's performing in her show is three, three and a half hours long. And so when I was doing my show, it was an hour and a half long, but it's the end of the day. It's at eight o'clock or whatever. The whole day I'm exhausted because I'm nervous. I'm preparing myself. And then at eight o'clock I'm up, and for the next hour and a half I'm giving everything. And then you're fricking then afterwards, you're still on a high, but you're exhausted. And then you got to do it again the next day where you're like, you're wringing your hands all day and you're pacing and then it is exhausting. You don't thinkSteve Lemme:I do. I do. Especially when you do Thursday, Friday, Saturday and the Friday and Saturday you're doing two shows in the nightMichael Jamin:And you're travelingSteve Lemme:And you're traveling. And also what Kevin and I would do is we would do meet and greets after every show, free ones, not like the ones where you pay extra and you get to come backstage. We would go, we'd tell people we're going to do a meet and greet out here after the show, come by and say hi. And so you're meeting half of the people that were at the show. Oftentimes that meet and greet would take an hour or more. She found that to be even more exhausting.Michael Jamin:Do you have a time limit with each person you're meeting and greeting?Steve Lemme:No, not really. I mean, it depends on the club or the theater. Because the first show, there's a natural out. You've got a second show, come on folks, and then you bang people through. And the second show, that's the one where people come up and they want to chug.Michael Jamin:That's kind of your brand, which is like, Hey, yeah, chug. And we're all college bros. But I wonder what's your thinking? You could do the other way. You could put a little separation between your audience and not do a meet and greet.Steve Lemme:You could, and I'm trying to think if there was ever a time where we came up with a reason or we had a reason not to, but I don't think so. There's something like we've always had this philosophy of meeting the fans and Jim Gaffigan once said it. He said, I'll meet them until I can't, meaning, and now he can't. He's justMichael Jamin:Too big.Steve Lemme:He's too big. It's impossible.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael lemin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.But how long? Is it 30 seconds or are you talking to the guy who doesn't want to talk anymore? How do you know when it's time to move on to the next person? There's a line.Steve Lemme:There's all different kinds of people. There's some people who just want to come and take a picture. There's some people who appreciate that there's a line behind them and you got to keep things moving. There's some people who are going to stay and talk to you until you have them move on. You'll be like, Hey, okay, but I hate to do this. Or the club will have security guards and they'll be like, all right, let's move it along. Let's go, let's go. We got a lot of people there. But I think that's something I've never really, I don't know. I've always enjoyed meeting people, and a lot of times I know a lot of my friends are like, oh God, that person's crazy. Don't talk to them. And I'm like, no, that's the person I want toMichael Jamin:Talk to. Really. Did you really, you're not worried about them forming some kind of parasocial relationship with you and wanting to get really close to you?Steve Lemme:I've never had that happen. I mean, there's absolutely, look, I am a man from the planet earth, and I lived here for a long time before any sort of recognition, fan recognition or celebrity, what's happening for me. And so it's like I can tell when I'm having a real connection with a person as opposed to when they're connecting with me and I don't feel it. And I could certainly, I know when mostly now because I'm skeptical and paranoid and cynical that I just assume it's like if anybody tries too aggressively to be friends, it's over for them.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? I see with you, you're very gracious and you're very social way more than me. So you could spend hours with people. I feel like even people you don't like, and I've seen you do that. I've seen you do that actually.Steve Lemme:Well, it depends where we are, but it's not like if you're at a film festival and some producer is like laughing at everything you say, you're like,Michael Jamin:Yeah,Steve Lemme:Okay, we're not friends. It's people that you're just hanging out with. It's funny because have a friend named Champagne, Rob, who we met in Atlanta, and the reason he's called Champagne Rob is because he and his girlfriend came to our show and they were sitting in the front row drinking champagne, and we just ragged on them. We were like, what the fuck is going on here drinking champagne at our show? They're like, yeah, man, we're having a good time drinking some champagne. It was like we had a great interaction with them. And then on the meet and greet line, afterwards, they came to either the late Friday show or the late Saturday show, the late Friday. If you really want to be friends with us, the late Friday show is the one that you might have a crack at it. We don't go out Thursday night and we don't go out Saturday night.Friday night's the one, you don't have to wake up for anything in the morning. So Friday night's the night we'd go after the late show, we'd go out and usually with people that we were friends with in our town and so on This particular night though, after that show, probably Friday night, then they were on the line and I had a joke about, I was talking about male grooming manscaping, and there was a poll given out to the people in the audience. Do you like it groomed or do you like it hairy? I'm like, it's a standup comedy. It's a set routine where I know that some women are going to be like you. It totally shaved. And you're like, well, what's wrong with a hairy one? And they're like, you get hair in your throat. And then my thing would be like, how far down are you going on this thing?And then basically I'm calling 'em the cookie monster of it was the Dick Gobbler is What and how. They're like, mom, I'm just eating a shit out of this dick and getting all the way down there. And that was a routine I was doing. And so Champagne, Rob's girlfriend happened to be that girl. And so then they came up afterwards and they were like, Hey, I'm the Dick Gobbler. And he's like, I'm champagne rob. And we're like, oh. And we had a good laugh on the line and the guy's like, look. And I had some friends there and they were from Atlanta, and they're like, we don't really know where to go. And the guy was like, I know a speakeasy that's literally across the street, literally across the street. Come with me, well have a great time. He's like, I'm not creepy. Let's just go. It's going to be awesome. And we're like, all right, fine. Fuck it. And we went outside and there was his car, and the license plate was Muff diver. It was the fucking,Michael Jamin:But I'm not creepy, I swear.Steve Lemme:And then we went to this speakeasy and had an awesome time, and of course we're hanging out with the guy there because he's gotten us in this place and we're just having drinks. And it was a totally normal hang, and it was like there was no awkwardness and there was no, it was, a lot of times when you meet these people, sometimes they don't then know what to say and they'll just start to ask you about yourself and they'll ask you questions, how did this happen? And how did this happen? And you're like, well, if we can't get past this stage, we'll never be friends and it doesn't get past that stage. So it's like, but this guy's like, yeah, we're hanging out, we're having a great time. And then it's like, whatever. And then it turns out he was a Giants fan, like Kevin and I am, and he showed us a photo of his toilet that he has at home, and in the toilet down at the bottom where the poop hits the bottom of the toilet was a Dallas Cowboys star. And we're like, this guy's fucking hysterical. So anyway, and then it turned out he was a professional, what do you call it, jet skierSponsored by Hooters. And so the whole thing just made perfect sense. It was like,Michael Jamin:Be good friends in this guy. Let me ask though, if you decided you wanted to go on tour comedy wise, whatever, next week, how fast does that happen? Let's say you already have a set let's, you already have material. Do you call someone and it happens? Do you have a booker and it happens?Steve Lemme:Yeah, I would call at a a, I have my standup agent,Which is actually how I got into C A A. I used to be with c a A, and then I went to U T A and I left U T A, and it was because I had a meeting with their standup agent who, I mean, I left U T A first and then I went to c a A, and it was the standup agent was the one who brought me in because at that point in time in 2009, we hadn't done anything. And so he was the guy who was like, oh, I think I can make some money for our agency with this fellow. And so he brought me in there.Michael Jamin:He books, he pimps you out to the various clubs, basically. Is that how that works? I'm surprised. C A A does that. I thought there was a smaller thing that smaller agents did not. Well,Steve Lemme:No, I mean, but there are agents who are bigger than others, so it's like he represents a lot of big people.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Steve Lemme:Big standups.Michael Jamin:So you could just, alright, literally you made a call today in a week or two, you could start touring basically.Steve Lemme:Yes.Michael Jamin:Wow.Steve Lemme:Yeah. But it depends. It also depends on, now it's been five years and we have the show. So the question would be what kind of places can we book? We know we can book the smaller places, we can sell those places out. We always were able to because of the movies that we had made. And so we enjoyed a success there that a lot of standup comedians, a luxury that a lot of that most standup comedians don't have. Because most standup comedians certainly back then had to do the club circuit. And first they would be doing five minutes, and then they strangers to people. So they'd have to make people like them, which to me is like 90% of the battle. Once you've already got the fans, you actually it a little bit more like you're giving a wedding toast. Not that your fans will accept subpar standup comedy, but they're more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. And if you fuck up, you can just look at them and they'll be like, yeah. And you're like, I know I suck. And they're like, yeah, fuck you. And you're like, fuck you.Michael Jamin:Interesting. That's what Jay is doing now. He's on the road doing standup, right? I mean,Steve Lemme:Yeah, he's in the UK right now. He's actually breaking new ground in that. He's going do a show, a couple shows in England, which is, it's sort of like the logical next step for American standups. You go and do the uk, England, Ireland, Scotland, Australia.Michael Jamin:But you're not really interested in doing that now. I mean, because first of all, it's hard family. How long do you want to be on the road for? Or is that your thinking or No,Steve Lemme:I mean, I love doing standup comedy. I don't love touring. I only liked it because I was with Kevin and I wasn't alone. I did a couple of solo dates, and I found it to be very lonelyMichael Jamin:Because the entire day, you're lonely,Steve Lemme:You're alone. And then at night after the show, it's like if Kevin and I were sort of wired, we could at least go back to the hotel bar and have a beer, or we could go to one of our rooms and smoke a joint or something like that. Whereas when you're alone, it's like you might hang out with the other comedians just fine. People want to make new friends. Or you go out with a staff or you meet a fan or something. Somebody's at the show, I don't know. Or you go out by yourself or you go back to the hotel room, but you're wired and it's a really weird thing to just get in bed and watch TV or something like that. Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's so interesting to be talking about. I don't know, all this is so new to me. The life of a performer for you. It's fascinating to me.Steve Lemme:Well, I think that is, it's funny. The worst standup experience I ever had was I was booked to do a solo weekend in Vermont in Burlington, Vermont. ThatMichael Jamin:Was lovely in the fall. It's perfect.Steve Lemme:It was perfect. And I'll tell you, it was probably, yeah, it was the fall. And what happened was to promote the show, I was interviewed by a Vermont free newspaper,And the journalist asked me all these questions. And so Super Troopers two had been finished, and the studio said, we're going to wait a year to release it, because next year, on April 20th, April 20th Falls on Friday, so we can release the movie on Friday, April 20th on four 20. And so we're waiting for that day, the time to do it. We're like, okay. But they didn't announce the day, and they kept being like, they didn't know when they were going to announce it. And they kept it off, kept putting it off. They kept saying, soon, soon, soon, soon, soon. And it was killing everybody. And so I was doing this interview with this free newspaper, and the guy said, do you know the release date of Super Troopers two? I said, I do, but I can't tell you. And he said, come on, what is it? I was like, I honestly can't tell you. And he's like, come on, please tell me. And I was like, I can't tell you. I'm not going to tell you. And he said, okay. And so then we kept doing the interview, and then the interview was over, and he said, okay, the interview is over. And he said, now, as a fan, can you just tell me? And I said, I can't, I'm not going to, but I'll give you a hint. OhMichael Jamin:No,Steve Lemme:There's a very popular stoner holiday that falls on a Friday next year. And he said, okay. And he was like, that's awesome. I was like, yeah. So then I was flying the next day to Vermont, and when I landed, there was messages, a text message from Heman like, you're in trouble.Michael Jamin:You guys are big mouth. What a puts, whatSteve Lemme:A puts. And then the guy had an even kind of made fun of me. He's like, he wouldn't tell me the release date, but I pushed him and pushed him, and finally he told me it's four 20. And so that Jay was pissed off and my producer was pissed off. The studio was fucking furious. They wanted to announce it make best, but they had all the materials. They just weren't doing it. And so they were like, it was still this little teeny newspaper, a free newspaper, and it was like less week's.Michael Jamin:And you gave them the scoop, this free fucking Vermont mapleSteve Lemme:Syrup. You get in a pizzeria, you just fucking,Michael Jamin:Yeah, I don't, you throw away, you wipe the table with,Steve Lemme:Yeah, get theMichael Jamin:Scoop.Steve Lemme:I was really fucking, this is Thursday. I did a show that night and I was fucking devastated. So I went out there and did a half-hearted show. My heart was heavy, and it was wait and see if anybody picks us up. And then Friday morning it got fucking picked up and was everywhere. And meanwhile, there were email threads with all the studio, the president of the studio and a hundred people from Searchlight, and then all the broken lizard, not me. And even my producer, I was like, dude, I'm suffering over here. You got to tell me what's going on. He just wrote back. He was fucking pissed off. OhMichael Jamin:Wow.Steve Lemme:Yeah, no, it hurt. And I was like, I went jogging that day. And then they released it that day. They did the official release of the trailer and the date, and it got 8 million views in the first fucking 24 hours alone. But nobody was talking to me that whole weekend. I didn't know any of that, but I knew it was out there. But I knew I had rushed the process, but like I said, they had it andMichael Jamin:They just wanted to punish you.Steve Lemme:But then the next week there was a meeting at Searchlight on Wednesday to now game plan, and it was like the big question was, so that weekend fucking sucked. I did press on Friday morning and I did two shows on Friday night and Saturday night, and I had friends coming to the shows and I was so sad. I was sad Steve and I was alone. And the one guy who was kind of forgiving, who was actually totally forgiving was Kevin. And I also say Paul Soder, who you worked on Tacoma. Those guys were not so secretly they were like, you know what? I'm fucking glad you did it. Now it's out there finally. And they were psyched because now we could finally fucking talk about it. We were getting ass about all the time. So those guys were cool about it. The other guys weren't as happy with me. And then the big question was, was I going to go to that studio meeting? And I fucking went. I was like, I'm going to take my poison.Michael Jamin:Let'sSteve Lemme:Go.Michael Jamin:Did they give you shit there?Steve Lemme:I went in and I made the saving Grace was that the trailer got 8 million views in the first 24 hours, and it was like, holy shit. It exceeded, it far exceeded and was now on pace at that moment in time. It was like that actually might have been the actual trailer. This was just a teaser and the announcement and it was huge. And so they were happy about that. That's the only thing that saved me because a couple of 'em, the head of marketing and the president were not that fucking psyched with me.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because usually they'll try to keep, you're the star of this movie. Usually they try to keep that, they try to hide their disdain from actors. They don't say it in front of their face. It wasSteve Lemme:A big deal and it caused massive shock waves and a shit storm then people had to fucking deal with while I sat there telling jokes. In Vermont,Michael Jamin:That's always the worst when you're, yeah, you have to wait through something. I know that feeling terrible. I've been there before. ISteve Lemme:Was sick. I was sick aboutMichael Jamin:It. Yeah, sick. Yeah, exactly.Steve Lemme:And mad at myself. How could I be so stupid? The whole thing?Michael Jamin:Did you confront that guy and say, Hey, you're a dick.Steve Lemme:No, I wanted to fucking die. I wanted the whole thing to die.But the funny thing was is that then the next internal broken lizard conversation was that because some guys were psyched that I had gotten it out there and the studio was psyched because fucking, it was massive. It was a massive announcement that got all those views and so was then the guys that were kind of mad about it were like, well, don't feel like you did the right thing here. What you did was wrong was like, I know what I did was wrong. I'll never do it again. They're like, so don't feel justified. I'm like, I know, but then guys are looking at each other. But it is pretty fucking sweet. And I definitely did the wrong thing and I would not advise that to anybody.Michael Jamin:Funny. Well, that's so interesting.Steve Lemme:It was an accident. It was an accident.Michael Jamin:Happy accident.Steve Lemme:It was a stupid mistake.Michael Jamin:I have to, this whole thing is that's what I love about you. You're just this open book and you tell, I feel like I get an education at the Hollywood from what you guys do. But tell me this though, as I've taken an hour of your time and you've been very gracious, but as you're, now that you're a showrunner for four Seasons now, and you obviously do a lot of hiring, I got a lot of people who listening to this podcast, sparring writers, what do you look for in a script? What do you look for in a new writer? All that stuff.Steve Lemme:So it's an interesting question for right now, because over the last, when we started with Tacoma, it was really at the beginning. Maybe it wasn't the beginning, but for me as a show runner, when we were putting together the writer's room, diversity was the first and most important thing that we were being told that we had toMichael Jamin:From the studio,Steve Lemme:The network in the studio to incorporate into the writer's room. And it was women, people of color across the board, everythingYou need to do this, which was fine. What I found was that then it used to be that I could, when we had a production deal at Warner Brothers for many years, and it's like you receive these movie scripts that were R-rated comedies and you were looking at, because that's what we were doing and we were going to be producing for other people. So it was like you just get every R-rated comedy sent your way. And so now, because of the diversity thing, we were receiving all kinds of scripts from all kinds of writers, from all kinds of backgrounds. And so it's like I couldn't receive a script from a Korean American woman, girl, young lady, of either whatever her sexuality was, and that experience would be reflected in the script,Which is not something I could relate to. So what I began to look for was the jokes inside the script, where before I didn't really, I could tell jokes and stuff, but I was just looking at the whole thing. Do I like the whole idea and stuff in terms of the scripts I started being sent, they weren't ideas that I could particularly relate to unless it was like, okay, you're the son of an immigrant who's going to a private school where they are out of their element. Okay, that I can relate to. But it was in any script I started to look for what's the type of joke they're telling? Is it a more highbrow joke? Are there a bunch of some dumb jokes? Is it word play? What's the type of humor here? And so that's what I started to look for in terms of the writing material.And then I found when I focused on that actually, but the plot of the script didn't matter at all. It was like, can they tell a story and are the jokes that they're setting up and paying off the type of jokes that I think will work for our show type of jokes, I will. Because it or not, everybody's got a style of humor. And if you're not telling the kind of jokes that I like to tell, it's I'm just not going to funny. And I can't hire you because in the writer's room, everything you're saying, I'm going to be like, it's dead air between us. I don't know. We're not on the same page. So I started to realize I could just look for the type of sense of humor and then nothing else really mattered. So I look for the type of jokes. I like to know that they can tell a story from beginning, middle, and end.And then the other thing is bring the person in. You find those scripts that you like. And then now we're going to do the zoom meeting. And I'll tell you what, if you're the first person I meet, you got the job, got the job. No, but in this case, and as we proceeded through each season, you started to realize that you actually, you do want to meet everybody, but then it becomes a personality thing. Can we riff with each other? And again, it's like it's not so much where you're from or who you are, what you represent. Can you and I have a conversation and have a funny conversation? That's what we look for too. Because as you know, it's like we're 17 weeks in a writer's room together. And the first few seasons we were in the room, and then the last couple of seasons we've been on Zoom. But in collaboration, sometimes there are disagreements and it's like we have to each other. We have to live with each other for 17 weeks, and I have to read your material and you have to accept my criticisms and ideas. And you have to my ideas. Because the truth is, if we're having a disagreement on something, I know who's going to win the argument.Michael Jamin:Yeah. People don't realize that.Steve Lemme:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Young writers often don't realize that the winner of the argument has already been decided. And that person sitting at the end of the table,Steve Lemme:I want to hear you defend your idea, but what I don't want, number one, what I don't want is for you to interrupt me a lot. What I don't want is for you to get mad. If I'm not taking your idea. Also, it's my show. Forget that it's my show. I'm the one whose responsibility is, if my joke sucks, that's my fucking problem.Michael Jamin:Yours.Steve Lemme:Nobody's going to say, wait a second, that joke sucked. Lemme see who wrote this episode. Oh, it's that person. I'm not going to hire them. Doesn't work that way. So like the personality is important,Michael Jamin:Right? Sure.Steve Lemme:And that's it for us. It'

On this week's episode, I discuss the differences between writing for TV versus film and the differences in the development phases. We also go into ways to create your own material and what to really focus on. Tune in for much more!Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:If you write something great, the actors will come out of the word work to be in it, and you don't even have to pay 'em because they're getting footage and they're also being involved in something that could be really great and could blow up and could make their careers. But if the script's no good, you're going to have to beg 'em to do it because what's in it for them other than bad footage that they can't use? It'sListening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm here with Phil Hudson again. Hello, Phil.Phil Hudson:Hey everybody. Good to be back.Michael Jamin:Hello, everybody. Today we're going to talk about something, well, something I think is very important. How about that? The question is, should you write for film or tv? I think a lot of people, at least from social media when they leave comments, I think a lot of people really aspire to be film writers because they have their story and maybe they think it's more prestigious. Maybe they like the idea of going to walking down a red carpet and seeing their work on a large screen. And so I just thought I talked to you about my feelings about film versus TV and why I greatly prefer working in television. And I think anybody who works in film is crazy. So it's not that they're crazy, but it's just like, wow. I see a lot of advantages for working in film. And to be clear, I am a TV writer, but I have sold a couple of movies and after selling those movies I was like, I don't want to do that again. I'd rather work in television, but I definitely see the appeal that people have. So I thought I may shed a little light on what my perspective is. That sounds good with you, Phil.Phil Hudson:I think this is an exciting topic and we were just talking before we started recording, the industry's changed even since I started studying this craft. Seriously, back then there was a viable feature market and it seems like it's gone the wayside, and I've seen the transition over the last decade with filmmakers and screenwriters coming into tv. I think because the money's better, there's more work, there's more creative freedom, and I'm sure you'll talk about it, but there's that saying of the director runs the film set and the writer runs the TV set.Michael Jamin:Yeah, if you want creative control, we have lots to talk about, but if it's creative control that you want, then you want to be in TV because the writer's in charge. If you want to be in charge in a film, then the director's in charge. Often the writer's not even invited to set. The writer has no say that will be rewritten. The director might hire multiple writers to rewrite. So if you think if it's about your vision, unless you are shooting yourself, forget it. You are really an afterthought. And like you said, they are making far fewer movies now than they were even 15, 20 years ago, probably a third as many. And when you look at the titles being released, you got a lot of remakes. You got a lot of sequels, you got a lot of reboots. Yeah, I mean, so they're makingPhil Hudson:Another, it's largely IP based material too. So it's other books that have blown up and they buy the rights to that. They then make that.Michael Jamin:So it is because they're easier to market, which is why you have Fast and The Furious 13, everyone knows that and it's why you have it, Indiana Jones five, because everyone knows it's just easier to market. And even Barbie, I don't know if it's Greta Go's Dream to make, when she was approached to write Barbie, she's probably Barbie, do I have to Barbie? What about my original idea? So obviously she wrote the Barbie movie and turned it into something very unique and special. But I can't imagine as a child, she grew up thinking, I want to write a movie about Barbie. They came to her with an offer and she turned into something unique and creative, but I don't think she came, maybe I shouldn't speak, but I can't imagine she brought the Barbie idea to them. I think they had to move the ip and yeah,Phil Hudson:I'm certain that's the case, but even then because of the success of Barbie, now Mattel is talking about creating their own cinematic universe,Michael Jamin:Right? Right. So get ready for more gi whatever it is. I don't know. Is that your dream? Now, indie filmmaking, by the way, is a completely different topic. Maybe we can brush on it a little. My area of expertise is definitely not independent filmmaking, but that's a whole different,Phil Hudson:But that's what I went to film school for and that's the Sundance world that I kind of been in. So I'm familiar with that. And there's a bit of a merge there. And we can talk about tko. Waititi is a really great example of that because he came out of the indie film world. He was a Sundance kid, and then he started doing more prolific stuff. And while I was touring for quasi handling social media for the broken lizard guys, that's one of the conversations we had with their, one of the Searchlight VPs of publicity. And she was like, yeah, Tika, he does one for us, we do one for him. You do Thor, you want to do Thor? Awesome. We'll make invisible Hitler. And it's a way for them to incentivize. But I would say Clin Eastwood, I would say even look at Christopher Nolan, that's the way it works. You get this deal at these big studios, I'll make your billion dollar film, and then they let you make the film you want to make, and one is going to make a ton of money, may win some awards, the other one's going to win some awards because they have the talent.Michael Jamin:So if it's your aspiration for me, just the thought of working film, you go, okay, I'll write a film and maybe I can sell it. But then, okay, then how many times are you going to sell a, it is hard to sustain that career. Whereas in television, oh, I know there's a TV show and maybe they have whatever, 10 or 13 episodes a season that sounds like you can make a living that sounds like you're working more steadily. And when I broke in, by the way, it's 22 episodes, so I was like, oh, okay, these people work all the time. And for 10 seasons, that sounds to me that was the lure of a steady paycheck was in television, maybe less so today, but certainly more so than being a filmmaker.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's fascinating. One thing that's standing out to me from this conversation really just echoes what you've been saying throughout the history of the podcast, and we're approaching two years of this podcast, and that is you have to get out and do it yourself. Nobody's going to do it for you. You can't rely on anybody else. You have to get up and do it. And even the gre Gerwig, the Tiger Boy, tee Tees, they had a name for themselves as filmmakers before the big studio came with the big bag of money. They were the value, and that's where they came to take advantage of them, right? Yeah. Greta Gerwig has the way to make her film stand out in her way and her style, and that's why it's a big hit. I don't think it's largely because it's Barbie, it's because of what she did with Barbie that made it work. But that's something she has honed and developed over years and years and years of hard work before she hit it big.Michael Jamin:And also my friend Chrissy Stratton, who I'm going to have back on the podcast at some point, we had her run before. So I met her on King of the Hill. She's a writer on King of the Hill. But then she went on to a very long career, almost as long as mine, working in various TV shows. She might be just one or two years behind me, pretty much equal. And she works all the time in tv, but she had this film that she's been dreaming about for whatever, 10 or 15 years and then decided, you know what? I'm just going to make a short. And so on her own dime. And she raised the money. She's a successful TV writer, but in film, she's the no one. So she started from scratch and she called in a lot of favors and shot a movie on by raising her own money, real low budget.And we'll talk more about this journey and why she's doing it, but it's not like, even though she's big in tv, she's a no one in film. So it's kind of a level playing field. And one of the thing, well, I know I'm jumping around, but I just so you're aware, as I mentioned about creative control in film, well, lemme tell you about the experiences that I went through. So my writing partner and I, we wrote a writing sample, a feature sample. I was dreaming it was going to get sold, but he was like, it's not going to get sold, whatever. But I was like, maybe it will. We wrote a sample, our agent shopped it around, no one bought it as predicted, but there was a producer who was very interested in working. He's like, this is great. We can't it, but let's try coming up with some ideas together and sell those.And so we worked with this producer and we wound up selling two more ideas, but every step of the way, it was kind of exhausting. We're coming up with ideas, we're writing drafts, we're giving it to him. He's got notes we're not getting, and you're doing, it's called free revisions. You're doing notes after notes. We sold it to the studio, but the producer is basically the gate. So until the producer's happy with the draft, the studio will never see it. And so this is what free revisions is. So you're doing constant rewrites for the producer.Phil Hudson:This is a big deal for the W G A, by the way. It's a very big deal. It's part of the strike too.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know what's going to obviously happen with it. And you're doing a lot of free work, which you're not getting paid obviously, and the studio's not seeing any of it. And then you get finally the producer's happy, you give it to the studio and then the studio has notes and then, okay, now you're again. So they say, do a revision. And again, you go back, you start doing the revision, you've turned into the producer and the producer's like, eh, I don't think it's good enough fellas. I need to do more work and more work. And then finally you turn that revision to the studio. I was at one point producer who I liked quite a bit, really good guy, but he also had development people working under him. So at one point his development person left, he brought in a new one, and now this new person has a new direction that we're going, oh my God.It was like, this is a never ending hell. That's how I felt. It's just a never ending hell because you have to please them. And I understand this is how the game is played, but I was like in tv, it doesn't work this way in tv, if I'm a writer on staff, I turn in my draft to the showrunner. If I'm not the showrunner, the showrunner has notes, great. Turn in another draft, we're done. Shoot, we're going to shoot it. And of course the network will have notes, but it's so much more streamlined because you have a timetable, we have to shoot this thing on Friday, so you can't keep this up in development hell for a year, which is what happens if you're doing film. You could be in hell forever on this. I was like, work done. And that'sPhil Hudson:The term too. It's development health, what you said. That's an industry term for what that is.Michael Jamin:And the money, in terms of the money, I got paid way more in TV than I do in film. SoPhil Hudson:That's what I was about to say. I just said, we talked about the podcast, that experience I had where that guy signed the script, signed the contract to write a script for that thing, and it kind of fizzled out, but the numbers on it were, it's like $160,000 to write a screenplay. Well, the average I understand is about six months to go through the whole process to write a script more than that. But then you have the notes and you have the feedback and you got all that stuff. So you're going to do one, maybe two of those a year. Well, you can go get an M B A and then go get a six figure paycheck that's going to pay you more than that. AndMichael Jamin:Just so you know, the movie's not getting made and it has nothing to do with you or it's just like it's a miracle movies. It's a miracle when a movie gets made. So if you want to see your work on the screen, even if it's been rewritten to death, forget it. Most movies just do not get made. So you're okay, but you used to make a good living writing movies that never got made. Maybe it's less so now because they're making because they're buying fewer. But back in the day, you could be a very successful screenwriter and never have a word of yours onscreen. But in TV it's different.Phil Hudson:One question that comes to mind for me, Michael, when you talk about free revisions and development, hell, you also advocate that writers write and they write for free. And if you don't want to write for free, don't do this because that's what this job looks like.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Right. What's the difference between the experience with the free revisions and the notes with the producer versus your definition of free writing?Michael Jamin:I mean, we're talking about two things. We're talking about improving your craft to write, to learn how to write. And so a lot of people just write one script and they think, well, I'm going to sell it and I'm done. Give me a paycheck. And my point is then you put it down and write another one and then write another one. And you'll notice that script number five is vastly better than script number one simply because you're getting better at writing. But the free revisions I'm talking about for these producers, when you become a professional at some point, I got to take home money. This is not a hobby for me. This is how I make my living. So I just didn't enjoy the process. I just thought like, ugh, it is no fun. It takes the joy out of it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, no kidding. So we have to write. We have to write. That's part of writing. Being a writer is writing. But what the WGA is fighting for is that writers should be paid for all of the professional rioting where other people are making money off of the sweat of their back. They're taking advantage of that situation because a bit of a power dynamic there where the producer has control and obviously they want to maintain their relationship and they want to make it as good as they can be. So I'm not saying it's a negative or a nefarious approach to it, but it's still a writers are sitting there not getting paid.Michael Jamin:I understand the producers are protecting their brand and they have a closer relationship with the studio. I get it. But they're not the ones doing all that work for free. So I just like, this is not appealing to me. I'd much rather work in television. Like I said, you have more creative control. You're onset. And again, in features, what would've happened had these two features of ours been made. It didn't come to this and I didn't expect it to, but we sold two features and at both times we're finally done. We give both final drafts to the studio. The studio is happy with it. The studio executive were working with happy. They'd given all our notes and revisions. They were very happy with the script. Now they give it to their boss who has the green light, they have the power to green light. And the boss reads it over the weekend, not interested.It was like, it's over. It's it. It was almost on a whim. Nah, what else you got? And it's like there's no argument. There's no more convincing them, it's dead because they just don't want to make that movie. And often they don't want to make that movie simply because the movie that did well that weekend was an action movie and your movie's a comedy and they want to make more action movies now, or it's as simple as that. Or someone put out a comedy movie that weekend that bombed and forget it. We're not doing comedies anymore. And so it could have nothing to do with the quality of what you wrote. This is what the marketplace suddenly changed and now it's dead. So this is how it is.Unless you are making your own movie. And if you make your own movie, that's great, but do it on a dime. On a dime. I say I had a nice conversation with someone, someone asked me to, it was a couple of days ago, they wanted to book some time with me for a consultation, which I occasionally do. And he really nice guy, but he had self-financed some projects and I was like, you spent too much money on that. Don't put so much money into your own projects in the beginning until you really get spend a couple thousand. That's what you can do it on. That's what I recommend.Phil Hudson:And in the indie film side of things, the goal is to not spend your money. It is actually to find investors. And the question is, why would people invest in an indie film maker who's made no money? A lot of people are looking for tax write-offs and they want to be involved in Hollywood. They want to feel like they are producing being part of that because they probably have that desire, that dream, and they chased the paycheck rather than their art. And so now that they've got the money, they would rather invest in another artist to be a part of that. And so my friend's dad is just this awesome guy, and he just texted me out of the blue two years ago and he had a bunch of stocks vest and he cashed out and he was like, Hey man, if you ever have something you want to make, let me know. I've got some cash lying around. I'd love to put towards that.Michael Jamin:Oh wow.Phil Hudson:But that comes out of a relationship of trust that I have with the guy. It alsoMichael Jamin:Is, and it might come with strings attached. It mayPhil Hudson:Be, and it probably will,Michael Jamin:It may be, and this is not how it works in TV and tv. So in film you might have a ton of executive producers because they help chip in for 5,000 bucks. You can become an executive producer of my movie. People do that and TV doesn't work that way. Tv, that's all financed by the studio. So it's not that kind of model. But in film, you write a check for 5,000, or if you write a bigger check for 50,000 and the person says, I'll give you 50,000 if you cast my daughter as the lead, or if you make these changes to the script, do you want to do it or not? That's up to you. How much do you want that money?Phil Hudson:I think that's really where the question of art versus craft comes into play, because in that situation it might be a little bit more art, it might be a little bit more of your decision. Well, that's going to ruin my vision for what I have or destroy the theme of this piece, and I'm doing it myself because it is an expression of myself, and that is art. And you might turn down the money out of integrity for the art there, but you might also take the paycheck because you've got kids who need diapers,Michael Jamin:Right? And so some people, sometimes people are very naive about the whole thing and they're like, you writers suck, or This is the garbage. Do you know how hard it's to get something made? And do you understand that I also need to make money?Phil Hudson:Oh man, we do the webinars every month and we do, we started to do this v i p q and A after, and we were testing it out, but we had a member of your group she joined and she was telling us about how she has made two or three indie films and she had put up this money and she was going to shoot it in the forest. And the film, the films that got shut down because of wildcat or a cougar, like a mountain lion or something, came in and ruined the whole thing. None of the actors want to come back. And she knew this was a thing that could happen. And so she was asking the question about hobbling together, her footage to make something producible. And it's just heartbreaking because a good story, you can't really do that. The story should mean something.And that's someone who's in there doing it. I think they're doing it on their own dime, and that's just heartbreaking to hear. But I've got other experience where my buddy Rich, he's produced a bunch of any stuff. He's done stuff with Michael Madson, done some stuff with major players, knows a bunch of people, and he was telling me about this film that he was working on for years and years and years. And they shot the whole film and then it got locked down in post because one of the executive producers who wrote the check wouldn't sign off on the final cut. And so it could getMichael Jamin:Final cutPhil Hudson:And it got stuck and they were arguments and they had to work through and it was like five years. And the end result they got out of it was a worst film because the producer had too much say and wanted edits. So understanding story structure, you look at it, it is a hobbled together piece of crap that has a couple big names in it,Michael Jamin:Right? Yeah. I don't even think you need, well, I don't want to talk about big names, but, and I felt bad for this woman in the v I b talk. But here's the thing, I also think you need to figure, be cautious on how producible is this movie you want to make. You didn't have to do a movie, write a movie that take place in the mountains. You could have written a movie that takes place in someone's apartment, and if you think I'm nuts, go watch the whale, which takes place in someone's crappy apartment and was amazing and beautiful because their writing was beautiful and the acting matched it, but the set was ugly. And anyone could have shot that in their own apartment. And that's on you as the writer is like, you don't have to write a movie. I would be cautious about writing anything with kids, because kids are really hard to have on set first of legally. You need to have tutors, you want to bend the rules. Kids can only work a certain amount of hours. And what you do on your independent film, that's your business, but to be up and up, that's the truth. And kids, they get tired, they lose focus, and they want to horse around. So I would be careful about having kids. I'd be careful about doing anything that requires characters getting wet because costume changes are bitch, when you're wet and at exterior locations, the same thing. Back noise, street noise, people being disruptive, a leaf blower.But you can write something very compelling in a controlled set where you don't have to worry about any of this stuff as long as the writing is good. It's all about the writing.Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:I'm having a flashback. So my thesis film that I did, I took a crew, we rented a van, we took our equipment, we drove to Utah, negotiated all these things because of relationships. I had to get it cheap, shooting in friends' houses, borrowing a friend's truck, doing all of these things. Flew in a couple of indie actors from LA to be in my project. And while we were going through, you just start getting hit with every single thing you have planned, start shifting based off of, there's cloud cover now because you're outside, it's starting to snow. Lots of beautiful things happen. Like we're shooting on a pump jack, which an oil deck, an oil derrick is, what you think about 'em is pump jacks that big swinging arm pump. It's a training school that agreed to let us shoot on theirs that was donated. And there's moving in the background, makes the production value go through the roof, what we had.But then at the same time, while we're driving, a deer jumps out and my friend's truck when my actor's driving hits the deer, and then we're driving the next day to go to the set to shoot the exteriors. And we need that truck. And then it blows part of the engine and we can't use the truck anymore. And I'm rewriting on the fly and my friend's daughter is casting this role using their house, and she's just this sweet little girl and she has two lines and she gets stage fright and she can't do it. And so we have to put her sister in who's too young. And so I have to scrap those lines and rethink how do I get this emotional moment across? And then at the end, when we're done filming, the little girl comes up and says, I'm ready now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, great.Phil Hudson:And they're heartbreaking. Heartbreaking because we're done.Michael Jamin:And that said, whatever, I would take inventory if you decide to do this Indio thing, because as a way of getting discovered, as a way of breaking in, which is great. I would just take inventory of what you have that's in your control. If you're a truck driver and you have a Mack truck, alright, maybe you're shooting the truck. I mean, that's an interesting set.Phil Hudson:Well, it's your life that ties in the right what you know, you can add reality veracity to that.Michael Jamin:If you have a storage locker, the same thing. If you're allowed to shoot there, you're probably not. But what little you have could be interesting. You don't think it's interesting because it's your life, but we think it's interesting. We don't live your life.Phil Hudson:While you were talking, I was just thinking of Robert Rodriguez, who's arguably one of the biggest directors on the planet. And he came from this in world where he did on mariachi. He documents all of this in a great book, the Rebel Without a Crew. And he donated his body to science to fund it. And he went to the small town in Mexico. He went in for clinical trials for a, to get the money, borrowed a camera that didn't have audio. Went to a town in Mexico where he would summer, borrowed friends and family and a best friend to play the roles, did the whole thing. And then stayed up at night in an editing bay at a local TV station to edit his film and did it and blew up because he thought, and all he wanted to do was to sell it to a Spanish language channel and ended up selling it to Sony or whoever, Sony Columbia or something.Michael Jamin:And now you can make it for a fraction. You could edit it all on your laptop, you canPhil Hudson:Edit it on your phone. You shoot the whole thing on yourMichael Jamin:Phone.Phil Hudson:But the story was good. Why did it sell? Why was it a big deal? It's because he knew how to tell a compelling story, and he just used what he had to do thatMichael Jamin:Job. So we're in agreement here. If you want to do an indie film, great. Just don't spend a lot of money. Also, you don't have, if you write something great, the actors will come out of the word work to be in it, and you don't even have to pay 'em because they're getting footage and they're also being involved in something that could be really great and could blow up and could make their careers. But if the script's no good, you're going to have to beg 'em to do it, because what's in it for them other than bad footage that they can't use?Phil Hudson:I dove headfirst into this stuff when I was first starting, and I would write a script, do one version of it, one draft, and then I would shoot it, do a casting call. People would show up, they'd want to be in it. We'd be on set. And they'd very quickly realized I had no idea what I was doing and I didn't, but I just had the gumption to make it happen. And I remember my lead calling me out one time or shooting this shot, and he's like, dude, what are you doing? We're here. You're not even using light to help add subtext and value. And he's talking about how when you're walking up the stairs, well, if you shot it this way through here, there's a cage and a shadow being cast on my face and emotionally, my character's going through this inner turmoil with his relationship and there's all this.And I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, because I had no clue. And I wasted time and energy and money doing it, and I was a valuable learning experience for me, and I got that lesson out of it. So yeah, your point, do it as cheap as you can because learning, you're just learning. And that is the school of hard knocks, not the school of theory and philosophy. It's get it done. You're going to learn. You're going to make a lot of mistakes. You're not going to sell the first thing. It's probably not going to win any awards. And if you do, awesome, you did it now, but you're most likely not. And that's okay. It's reps, reps, reps, reps.Michael Jamin:Yes. And I have a lot of respect for people who do it. And even if they come up with something terrible and crappy, well, guess what? They did it. Guess what? They put a lot of energy and work into something and their next piece will hopefully be better. And most people just dream of it. And most people will just say, here's my script. Make my dream come true. But the other people say, here's my script. I'm going to make my dream come true. And it may take long, a long process, but it's putting the work in so good for them.Phil Hudson:Yeah. My first class I went in, I had some credit transfer credits from when I was first in college. So when I went to film school, I was up, maybe I was basically a year ahead when I got there, and I had to take a couple of freshmen film classes because they were requirements. And I remember intro to film, film 1 0 1, we're in this big IMAX theater on our campus, and Peter Grendel, our professor my age is teaching. And his big point from the first lesson was the percentage of people who say they want to be filmmakers versus the people who make films is very different. It's like 0.0001% make a film. He said, so even if you put in all the time, energy, and effort needed to make an indie film that does nothing goes nowhere, you have still done something most people will never do. But most people talk about doing, and that's something to take pride in.Michael Jamin:My daughter shot a little scene in college. She got a scene, a little film that someone wrote, and it was just two people. It was short. It was like three minutes of a young woman. She was the girl and a boy sitting on a staircase talking about something, and it was too short to go anywhere. But I was like, that's interesting. You could have done something. It's easy to shoot. You're just two angles and a master on a staircase. If they had spent a little more time with the script, I go, there's something there for sure. It's something compelling about a boy and a girl who are dating and whatever they were talking about. I was like, it's something small. And the writing, it's about the writing. It's not about anything else as far as, and the acting. But yeah, I mean, just as an experiment, can I write something compelling about two people on a staircase talking about something? And we've seen this stuff. Here's a good one. Mount is a good example, but in Pulp Fiction, when Samuel Jackson and Travolta in that car are talking aboutPhil Hudson:The crown royale with cheese,Michael Jamin:That's interesting. That's interesting. Fun dialogue. You still need a story on top of that. But it's rich, and we all remember it because, or the scene or that small little scene, if you had shot that small scene where Samuel Jackson's talking about, he's in that guy's, there's young guy's house. He breaks the first scene where there's five college kids or whatever that they're threatening. They owe them money. And Samuel Jackson's talking about he's clearly a killer, but he's reformed. He's found Jesus, and he's struggling though. He's struggling to do the right thing. If you shot that one scene and it's an apartment building, that's it. You have a couple guy on a couch and a guy and two guys holding fake guns, that one scene is very interesting and compelling. If that's your movie you made, I want to see more. And it doesn't cost a fortune to write that scene. There's no special effects, I guess in the end had some fake bullets or whatever. But that's it, that that's all you need, A thug, a street thug who's a murderer, but he found Jesus and he's trying to do the right thing. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's great. That whole scene is fascinating. And that's for anybody listening, wanting to learn how to write great dialogue or understand characters. The fact that what's so interesting about that cheeseburger conversation is they are killers, and they're not talking about when we get there, we're going to shoot 'em in the face, or here's how we're going to dispose the body. They've done this so many times that this just, we can talk about why they put cheese on a burger. It's stabs quo. And the story's there because they're talking about the wife and the foot massage and all that stuff as they're standing in the hallway and it just happens and they kick the door and they know let's beat thugs. Right? ButMichael Jamin:How easy are both those scenes? I mean, the first one's a little harder in a car, but they're both very easy in terms of shooting, that wouldn't cost neither one of those scenes cost a fortune. It's all about the writing and the acting will support the writing.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I mean, that's Tarantino like Reservoir Dogs. It's a warehouse. It's a warehouse with some flashbacks outside. The whole thing takes you in one room,Michael Jamin:But even let's say reservoir drugs, which obviously was the one that really made him. But the point I'm trying to make is just write, because you don't have to write a whole movie, just write one compelling scene that promises something really on its own. You're like, I'm hooked. And maybe there's more to it.Phil Hudson:That ties back to your fractals podcast too, which has really stuck with me. And I think about it every time I sit down to write, when I'm structuring scenes and acts and I'm structuring my story, if you can't do a scene, well, how could you do a short, well, if you can't do a short, well, how could you do a full blown act or a TV pilot if you can't do that? Well, how can you do a two hour feature?Michael Jamin:We shot that episode, that podcast episode a long time, probably over a year ago, but it was called something about fractals. I think it wasPhil Hudson:Just called fractals.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And the point I was making is anybody who knows anything about fractals, they're patterns that repeat nature. So if you see a tree, it has a trunk in branches, but if you look at the leaf on the tree, the leaf has a trunk in branches, and then if you look at the cells, so it's about these repeating patterns. And so my point is, for movie, you have to want to write a compelling movie, right? But break down the movie into acts, and each act has to be compelling. Then break down each act into scenes, and each scene is compelling. And then each line has to be compelling. And so you're really just repeating patterns over and over, but on a larger scale. And so if you point out, if you can't write a compelling act, if you can write a compelling scene, how are you going to write a compelling act? Just start with writing a scene. That'sPhil Hudson:It. Yeah. Write the scene, write the scene, write the scene over and over and over again. You can churn out scenes. Even if you just took a week and just focused on one scene, how much better is that going to be than taking a week and powering through 50 pages?And I'm not advocating by the way that you shift your writing style, and it's not necessarily what you teach as the process that we do in Hollywood, and we've seen in TV rooms. What I'm saying is as a writing exercise, getting in your reps to practice the craft of writing, you're going to get faster return. Drilling. This thing, and I talk about this all the time, it's Josh Watkin's making bigger, small circles bigger. So how do you pull back and zoom in on something and focus on the detail work inside of that thing? And in Jujitsu's transitions in this, it's how do I get into a scene fast? How to get out of a scene fast? How do I display things through subtext? How do I have people say things without saying things? What's the thematic thing? What's the energy coming in? And the energy come out? That's all the detail. That's just a film condense. So focus, just do that while you're doing the other stuff.Michael Jamin:That's a good point. And I was going to also say, I'm guilty of this too. When I'm writing my, well, I finished my book, but when I was writing it, I'd have a scene in my mind. I wanted to get to the next scene where also some great stuff was going to happen. And then I kind of just got a little lazy in my transitions. And then when I'd read it again, I'm like, what's going on in this transition? Can I make this transition interesting? Do I have to be lazy and sloppy? Is there a goal to be found in the transition? And then I'd realize, oh, that's kind of where there's some interesting stuff is, so I'm guilty of it too. But you have to be aware. It's not just about a race, and you're not just racing to get to the next scene you are whenPhil Hudson:We talk about enjoy the journey and enjoy the process. This is what we're talking about. You have to love doing this because it ends up getting you somewhere better than where you were before. And the other quote, I believe I've said on the podcast who really stood out to me was an interview with Kobe Bryant, and he just said that nothing he does on the court, he hasn't practiced a thousand times, right? So he's in there practicing, practicing, practicing. He shows up, and you hear this all the time in interviews with other players from the Lakers, they say that they would show up their first day and they'd want to show up early to put in the work. And Kobe Bryant was already there practicing free throws, practicing free throws.Michael Jamin:You're talking about the greatest player or one of the greatest players in the N B A hasty was already there, was acting as if he was a rookie who had never taken a shot in a basketball court.Phil Hudson:All the money, all the skills, all the fame, known name, 70 hour work weeks, just putting in the work.Michael Jamin:If the greatest player has to do it, why do you think you don't have to do it?Phil Hudson:LeBron James, he makes what? A hundred million a year off of all of his endorsement deals. I read, I think in Sports Illustrated, it's like 9 million a year goes into taking care of his body just in trainers massage therapy.Michael Jamin:Wow.Phil Hudson:Why? Because that's his tool. That's his instrument. Your tool is your keyboard or your typewriter, your pad and paper and pen, and you don't need, here's the cool thing. You can write a lot of things without needing a fancy computer or fancy software. You can just sit down and practice this with a pad of paper and a Panama napkin.Michael Jamin:What's your commitment to getting better at the craft? And I get why people just want to, they want fast results, but it's not a fast result kind of game. I don't know how we got here from, should you be a TV writer or a film writer?Phil Hudson:Well, I think we're talking about indie film, we're talking about the process of indie film versus features, but all of this relates it's skillset. And I know you talked about for you, you liked TV writing, and I think with the time we have left, I'd love to hear what are the benefits that you found in TV writing? And I think they tie directly into this, which is there's more work, there's more time to sit, and you do this more than writingMichael Jamin:A feature. But not only that, I feel like TV writing, being a TV writer has helped me improve my writing all around because every week, including writing novels. Including writing films, because every week you have to come up with a new story, and it's the repetitiveness, the repetition of, okay, let's break a story. This week we got to break a story. Next week, we got to break a north story next week. And constantly coming up with new stories, even though they're half hour as opposed to an hour and a half. It's that repetition that really makes you really good. And that's why I feel, and I'm not the only one who thinks this way, if you want to watch a really good comedy, you watch tv, you don't turn to film, although there are some really funny films, pound for pound, you go back to tv.It's that action. That's where the good writers really get good. I'll see a comedy. I don't even know how many come. I tried watching one of these streamers, I'm like, oh, comedy, I'll watch this. And it's terrible. This is terrible. From some unknown, have they spent some time in a TV writer's room? They would know, no, this is not acceptable dialogue. That's not an acceptable joke. You just learn so much by being in television, I feel. And then you could go to TV or a film if you have an opportunity. But the learning ground, I feel, is in tv.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Have you seen The Bear?Michael Jamin:I saw the Pilot. I haven't watched the Rest. DudePhil Hudson:Blew my mind, and it feels like one of the most dramatic films, TV shows I've ever seen. It's short form. It's a comedy, it's a sitcom. It's got all the enemies for these comedy, and it makes you laugh, it makes you cry. It's all those notes, and you just look at it, and I looked up the creator and it's like, man, this guy has produced some of the greatest standup comedians in history. Chris Rock, just tons of people. And it's like, yeah, you're learning this from being around and doing the work. And then that translate into what I think is one of the best comedies on tv,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:It's great.Michael Jamin:I got to watch it. The problem is Cynthia's already seen it, and so I got to watch it alone, make time to watch it alone.Phil Hudson:I get it. I'm married. I understand.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there it is. I hope that helps. Yeah.Phil Hudson:One thing I just wanted to add to this conversation was when I first got into this, the advice was really centered around, is this a TV IT idea or a film idea? Not necessarily are you a film writer or a TV writer? And I just wanted to get your thoughts on this. I hear this advice all over the place. The question was, is this something that could end or is this something that could continue? Is this the kind of idea that there's a clear defined ending to this, right?Michael Jamin:I feel likePhil Hudson:TV might've changed that now with our long form, eight to 10 minute, like a TV series ends up being a longer form film. But at the same time, I think there's some weight in that, which is something you tie back to in comedy. Your character doesn't really change at the end. They reset. I'd love your on that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So if you're coming with a film, is this a TV idea or a film idea? If the character goes on a complete journey, Rocky and Rocky finally wins or goes the distance. It's not a TV show because he's not going to go. It's not a fight of the week. It's just like you take a street bum and you turn into, he went the distance, so it's done. That's it. They made sequels. Sure. Each sequel is basically a remake of the first one, and none of them are as good as the first one because you took a character. The only reason they did sequels is because they, Hey, we can squeeze some more money out of this. The story was over, I'm sorry, the story was over. It was a beautiful story, but it's not like a world of Rocky and Nikki and the gang hanging out that would be hanging out at the training facility at the boxing club. That would be sunny. It's always sunny in Philadelphia, which is fine. That's a TV series. They're just hanging out, people hanging out. So is it a world you're creating, or are you taking a character on a full emotional journey?Phil Hudson:Yeah, and that's an interesting, John Wick one is just great. It's great. It's a great film. John Wick two, I kind of like more than John Wick one because we get into the world, but I wouldn't want John Wick two if I hadn't seen John Wick one and felt like it was satisfying at the end, and you're kind of bummed. The other thing, this is just my thing as a writer, I really hate when characters suffer to the nth degree of suffering and just wrecking, this guy just got his life back and now you're going to ruin his life in the second film. It's a bit of a bummer.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But yeah, so that's what I ask, Yousef, are you creating a world, especially in sitcoms, this is your family. I think of it as, cheers. Do I want to hang out with these people week in and week out? Do I want to let them into my living room? Is that what it is? Because I certainly don't want to let some movies, no. Some movies, no, I don't want to The quiet place quiet. I don't don't want to let them into my living room week after week. That's unsettling to me. Great movie, not a TV show.Phil Hudson:Children are men. Children are men. One of the most impactful films I've ever seen. Haven't watched it again, so many,Michael Jamin:Right? It's enough. Right, right, right. GotPhil Hudson:The lesson. Move on.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Great answer, Michael. Thank you. Bye. It was great.Michael Jamin:Alright, everyone, thank you so much. Phil and I have more to talk about. We have some exciting stuff to talk about coming up in future episodes, but thank you so much and for what are we going to talk about, Phil? We got to promote, we have a watch list, our newsletter,Phil Hudson:We got all about it. So you can go to michaeljamin.com/newsletter to join the watch list. You can also go to /watchlist. A lot of people know that one, but you've got that. It's a weekly newsletter. You've got the free lesson. It's the first full free lesson. You've broken into three parts. AMichael Jamin:Screenwriting lesson,Phil Hudson:Right? A screenwriting lesson. If you want to learn more about the very first lesson you ever taught me as a mentor about screenwriting, which I think you were taught, and I think you've taught lots of other people, is what is the definition of a story. So go get that michael jamin.com/free. I think we get three to 500 people a week sign up forMichael Jamin:That thing. Oh wow. That's crazy. We also have, we've been doing free webinars and now right now the schedule's up. We're doing it every three weeks instead of every four weeks. So you can come to that michaeljamin.com/webinar and it's free. Come sit in and thenPhil Hudson:Touring for a P orchestra. That's going to be coming up, I think, at some point, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, hopefully. But we're hoping that our book, my book is going to drop. I'm really happy with the way it's coming up, but we're doing the audio book now, and so maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that. Maybe we will talk more about that in a different episode. Yeah, if you want to come see me on tour or be notified when my book drops as an audio audiobook as well, Michaeljamin.com/upcoming, and the audiobook is really nice. It's really because I got some music. I have a composer on it. We'll talk about it now. I guess. Anthony Rizzo, who is the composer on Maron, well, I'll talk about it in the next episode. We'll open up, talk about that. So go there, michaeljamin.com/upcoming if you want to see me on tour or be notified me the bookPhil Hudson:Drop. And for everybody watching this, this is going to be a bit out of order, so it'll be the next episode that I'm in. Right? Because the next one, I think you got Steve Lemi comingMichael Jamin:Up. Yeah, Lemi is coming up for episode 100 from Broken Lizard. Alright, everyone, thank you so much. Until next time, keep writing. Thank you, Phil.Phil Hudson:Thank you.This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJamin,writer. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

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On this week's episode, I talk about how writing requires you to continually build mountains. Even though some things you do for your craft might seem small, they add to what you are trying to build. The bigger the mountain you have, the more you will stand out.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Everything you want. Life has comes with a price, everything. And it's either, if you, if you chase your dreams, you're gonna pay in sacrifice. And if you don't, you're gonna pay in regret. And you get to decide which one do you want to pay. But most people, I think, think that regret is a steeper price to pay. But so I don't understand what the hesitation is in not building your mountain. It's gonna take years and years, but so what else are you gonna do? Time's passing. Anyway, what else are you gonna do? You're listening to screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. We're back with Screenwriters. Need to hear this. And I'm here with Phil, Phil Hudson. What up, what up? And we're doing another episode. We're gonna, we're we have a topic. I did a post a I love how you just jump right into this, Phil. A lot of podcasts, they just, they bullshit for a while. But we don't put any fluff in this fluff, except for what I just said right now, that's fluff. This is, but thisPhil Hudson:Is explanation. And, and what I'm doing is explanation.Michael Jamin:But yeah. So this, what we're this idea is called building a Mountain. And I did a post, I don't know, a week or two ago about that subject. And I wanted to just go talk about it a little bit more. I did a post on social media. You should be following me there. By the way, everyone at Michael Gman, writer, I post every day. So I did a post called Building a Mountain, and there's a great quote by Sylvester Stallone. And he, his advice is, is to build a mountain climate and then build another mountain. And this refers to everything you do in life. And I remember when he said this, I thought what was so smart about that quote was, he's not saying find a mountain and climate. He's saying build a mountain. And climate, which is even more work. And I think this is important to talk about in people who wanna break into Hollywood as a screenwriter, as actors, directors, whatever.Because, you know, you, this is a mountain you have to climb. And, and everyone knows it's hard to break in. And once you're in, you still have to climb a mountain. And I just wanted to talk more about what that really means. Not just climbing it, but building it. Because building a mountain is even more work. You know, building a mountain requires you getting all the rocks in a sled and dumping them in a pile, and then starting your, your climb. You, you have to do all this work before you even start climbing the mountain. And I know it looks like work, but that's how you stand out. Cause most people don't wanna do it. Most people simply don't. Like you'll stand out if you build a mountain, forget about climbing it. Like no one does that. And if you start building a mountain, day after day, whatever that looks like for you, whether it's working on your script or actually shooting something, or working on someone else's script or pro, or helping them, whatever that mountain looks like, whatever the mo, whatever more work you could possibly do, I say sign up for it.Because people will look at you like, look at that lunatic over there. Look what they're doing every day. They must be committed. There must be, they're doing things. And when I think about, I wanna just talk more about what that could possibly look like, building a mountain. And I actually see people building mountains all the time, and they get my attention and they think that's what happens. Hmm. And I was, this is gonna surprise you, Phil. So like, you know, we have a, a screenwriting course and we have a private Facebook group. And you know, people take the course and they get into the group. And there are people in the, the group that I see are building mountains. They're not just taking the class. They're not just writing their scripts. They are trading scripts. They are having table reads. They are helping each other out.I don't know if any of them started shooting stuff to me that would be ideal. They started shooting stuff on their phone and start building their own little, I don't know, their own little whatever, whatever. It looks like a film festival. I, I'm gonna call some of these people out because I see their names and I've never met any of them in person. Dave Crossman, Paul Rose, John Evans, Lori Cara Glen Amp, rose, Bruce, Gordon, mark is that Hop, hapah, hapah Mark. Mark Hopa, I believe Hapah and Phil, you're one of them too. These are people who are going above and beyond because it, it's important to them. And then, I don't know, to me, that's just impressive. It catches my notice. Whatever it looks like, you know, it could look like what they're doing, which is great. It could look like you know, they're, they're building a community.So if one of them rises, if one of 'em starts doing well, the others are all gonna, it's by osmosis. This is their community. They're gonna help each other out. This is their graduating class. And just, this is what you wanna do, but you wanna be around successful people. Find out what successful people are doing and get in on it if you can. And success doesn't have to be the top. It could be whatever they're at, whatever level is whatever your, your cohort is. And, and I wanna say it also, it probably feels beneath you to build a mountain. But when I interview people, even like on a podcast or whatever, and I get their stories, their origin stories, all of them were building mountains. None of them were just like, Hey, I want a contest. None of them were like, Hey, I submitted a script.Like everyone was like, oh, I had to do this. I had to do that. It was like you know, and I'm like, you, you did all that. Yep, I did. Like, I remember, I, I did one where I talked to Chandra Thomas, who's a writer on Tacoma, and she was like, staging, you know, plays where no one would come to see , and she's handing out flyers to get people to come. You know, you did all that. Oh yeah, I did all that. I, you know, whatever it was to get better, to do more, to be seen more. But all of them do that. It's just, I know it looks like a lot of work. I know it looks like a lot of work, and it is, but that's why you should do it, , because no one else is doing it. You're gonna stand out. I think, I don't know if it's generational. I don't know if people think if it's an entitlement thing, they think they should just be able to hand their script in, or if it's just they don't know any better, but do it. Like, and, and you know, Phil, I'm building a mountain too. I'm exhausted. I feel like I shouldn't have to build a mountain after doing my career for so long. Well, sorry, we all have to do it. . Yeah. It's like,Phil Hudson:And two years in. And, and look where you're at now in terms of you were just on Andrew Yang's podcast. Yeah. You've been interviewed for a ton of stuff about the rider's strike. And that comes from doing the following, the advice you give everybody else, which is every single day, build your mountain.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And take some time. Take whatever time it is. And you may not have a ton of time, but all right, you have, you might, if you don't have a half hour, do you have 10 minutes? Everyone has got 10 minutes. So you could do that on your lunch, whatever it looks like for you. And, you know, talent, talent and connections are not enough, you know, and more important than talent. Although talent is very important, really more important is just, is just not giving up and keep doing the work. And, and just persevering. Like, because I, I know people with talent who have given up. I know people who are extremely talented in real life. Like friends who gifted, people who are like, man, they're really gifted, but they just don't have the, they're not used to failing because they're so gifted. And because of that, I don't think they're as happy as they could be in real life.Because even though they're way more talented than I am, they just don't, they, they don't have that same, they're not used to failing. So get used to failing. There was a guy, I'm gonna, there's a couple things I just wanna talk about, but oh, oh, yeah. I skipped over something. Like, the people in the group now that we're on strike, I, I get comments from people. They, people say, well, why don't writers band together and make their own studio? Good question. Why don't you, I mean, I don't need to do that. But why don't you do that? Like, why don't whoever's trying to be a writer, why don't you do that? And by studio, you, it could be a YouTube channel, whatever it is. It could be like, why are you not making your own material? Why are you not helping someone else make their material? Why are you like, good question. You don't need the studios. You don't need anyone's permission to write and shoot your own material and put it up out, out in the world. You now, why don't I do it? Well, I, I just don't, I don't, and I'm not, I don't think I'm at the point in my career where I need to do that. But I think other people can do it. You know, why not? You know?Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's an, I mean, that's for me, what I'm hearing you say is that we need to spend more time being uncomfortable.Michael Jamin:Hell yeah. There is a guy, he sent me a note and I did a post on this. He he, I guess he was from England and he moved to the UK to to Los Angeles many years ago. His dream was to be a screenwriter. He wound up getting a job on the fox lot in Fox Sports. Good for him. Right? cuz leaving England to move here, you're outta your comfort zone. And I'm sure it's very brave. You have no friends and family. It's a different culture. Yeah. I'm sure. It's very difficult and brave. He gets this job and suddenly he just lost his courage and he stopped. He, he, in his own note, he's like, I wasn't dedicated. I wasn't focused. And so he never became a, the screenwriter. He, and he felt like he's so close, but so far he's, so he's literally feet away from the people who have the job he wants, cuz he is on the lot.But he felt, he feels like he couldn't be further away. And yeah, he, he couldn't be. And it's because, and now that he, he's older, he's like in his mid forties, and he feels like, well, you know, maybe he missed his shot. And I, I made a case for why that wasn't necessarily so, but but you know, he just lost whatever, for whatever reason. He just lost the, his, his courage. And, and now he's gotta deal with that. He's gotta deal with regret. And, and I was talking about, well, in life, everything you pay for, and I know I've mentioned this before, so I'm gonna, you know, zip past it a little bit. But everything you want in life has a, comes with the price, everything. And it's either, if you, if you chase your dreams, you're gonna pay in sacrifice. And if you don't, you're gonna pay in regret. And you get to decide which one do you want to pay. But most people, I think, think that regret is a steeper price to pay. But so I don't understand what the hesitation is in not building your mountain. It's gonna take years and years, but so what else are you gonna do? Time's passing Anyway, what else are you gonna do? Yeah. You know,Phil Hudson:There were, I wish I had the name of the, the resource on this, but about a year ago I was listening to an audio book or a podcast, and they were talking about how they started spending a bunch of time in old folks homes. And one of the uhhuh, like universally the thing that they focused on and thought about at the end of life is all of the things they regret not doing. Asking the girl out, pursuing their craft, you know, spending more time with your family, all of those things. And regret is the theme at the end of your life. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right? It's regret. And, and if you go for something, let's say you spent, I don't know, 10 years trying to break into Hollywood, and you don't break in, you, are you gonna have regrets? No. I mean, what you, where you feel like that time is wasted? I don't think so. I think you'd be like, oh, it just wasn't in the cards. It didn't work out for me, but I don't, I went for it. I sure went for it. And, you know, there's so much honor in that. But where's the, you know, but you don't regret that. You don't, you're not gonna regret not making it in. You're, you're gonna be like, oh, it just didn't happen for me. But that's not, you can't put that on the regret list because you tried, you know? Yep.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I've said on the podcast before that my worst fear in life is sitting a movie theater and wishing, man, I wish I did that. And it's because I have those moments when I go to a movie and I, something really impacts me. I have that, that gut feeling. This is all I want to do with my life. Right. So working in LA as an assistant, you know, sacrificing time with my family or with my hobbies, or not playing Xbox with my friends or whatever it is, you know, cost of living, all that stuff that is nothing compared to the price of the regret. I know I'll have at 55 sitting in a theater thinking I wish I would've kept trying. And yeah, I'm pretty close. I I've had some really great success this year. Thanks again to you and your mentorship and the lessons you've taught me about how to do my craft appropriately. But beyond that, it's you know, I'm that close. But if I had to spend 10 more years trying, I'd spend 10 more years trying. AndMichael Jamin:You just had a, a setback. You just had a kick in the teeth and mm-hmm. and it's hard to get back up after a kick in the teeth. And that's, that's character.Phil Hudson:Well, but I, but I knew that, you know, I had this experience with my daughter. We go to the playground here by my house, we just walk a couple blocks over. Mm-Hmm. And there's the big, the little kid's playground and the big kid's playground. And my daughter Grace is just this beautiful two and a half year old girl. She's like, starts playing with the bigger kids and she goes to the big playground, and then there's this like, ladder, but it's not actually a ladder. It's like a plastic net. And she trips and falls and smacks her face on the plastic mm-hmm. . and she starts crying. And as a parent, you understand this, there's a different cry when your kid's actually hurt. And when they, they're scared and it's like, oh, that's actual hurt. And so I went over and she was pretty upset, and I knew the best thing I could do as a father at that moment was to get her to climb that thing right then, or she would be afraid of it.So I said, are you okay? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, okay, let's climb this together and I'll be right here and I'll make sure you don't fall again. And I helped her climb up this net to get to the top and I said, you did it. And we celebrated. And I said, do you feel strong? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, great, go down the slide. And she forgot about all her pain and she went down the slide and she wanted to do it again immediately after. Yeah. And for me, it's like you said, you have a friend who is not used to failure, right? Yeah. I hate failing. And so falling down and getting yourself back up is just one of those life skills I learned too late in life and I wish I would've had earlier. So yeah. I'm happy to talk about my experience if you want me toMichael Jamin:Yeah. Go into it. Go into it a little bit. Yeah. Let people tell a bit what happened.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So, so for anybody who's listened to the podcast for a while, I wrote this script, and Michael, you were kind enough to gimme notes and we recorded that on the podcast, and I took several months and I did a ton of research. You gave it a b plus, and I really did my best to make it an A plus. Mm-Hmm. , I probably landed at an a, not an a plus, but it's good. And people read it and they're like, man, that's really good. I now see ways I can improve it even a year later. Like I, I know I can make it better, but it's, you know, so anyway, I sent it around to some people and there were some people in this group who were like, read it. And they're like, this is awesome. And then they hired me to write another feature for a couple thousand dollars.It's not a ton of money, but it's like, hey, it's, it's work and I'm getting paid. Right? Then that turned into, they're, one of 'em is producing a film in, in Georgia, and the guy had to, the producer of this film had to fire his screenwriter for trying to take money out of his account or so he said, and I'll get to that, I guess . So anyway, that was probably not what happened as we learned, but Okay. Yeah, probably not what happened. There's some foreshadowing for you. That's a writer term, right, Michael? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway my friend who's, who's was asked to produce this film out there because of these hiccups, he pitched writing the screenplay for this project that supposedly has 12 million of budget with another potentially 22 or 20 million being committed from other people. And it's about this famous American moment in American history that is apparently doesn't have a film about it, public domain, really cool project.And so he and I went together, we went in, we had a zoom call with the guy. We pitched our idea, walked him through our, our process. He said, let me think about it for the day. We got off the call and he emailed within an hour. I was like, I think we're aligned, let's move forward. And that was about three weeks before the writer strike. So we negotiated a bunch of things. I negotiated that he, we would be wga he would join the guild after we turned in the script and become a signatory. It's retroactive, it's all kosher, don't worry. And then that we would get paid minimums, which for me is like, man, it's a hundred and like $60,000 split two ways, but still big fat money to write a feature film. And I called the wga, made sure everything was good, the rider strike happened, nothing happened.And then he was like, all right, let's get it going. And so we called our attorney, he connected with his attorney, we did the contracts, the back and forth. We got the contract. He was gonna fly me out to Baltimore, Maryland mm-hmm. to do research. We submitted the script. We, he, we signed the contract. And then the next day, the day I was supposed to fly to Baltimore, he fell and broke three fingers in his car door. Mm-Hmm. . And I was like, crap. Well, and the whole time there's like this weird spidey sense going off, like, this is too good to be true. There's too much here, but you're, I'm ignoring it because I want this so badly. Mm-Hmm. . And then he signed the contract after he broke his hands and, and sent it back through DocuSign to get it to our attorneys.Awesome. My attorney was smart enough to put a line in there that you have to make the initial payment, which is a required step to execute the contract mm-hmm. . And he said, no problem. I'll wire the money. The trip fell apart, no flights were given all this stuff. And then the wire was supposed to come. He said he sent it on a Tuesday, Thursday comes around, there's no money. Friday, there's no money. Calls are being made, don't know what's happening. I'm calling my bank. He's not giving us a confirmation number, which pretty easy. Your bank can just track a confirmation number on a wire cuz it's in a database. And so then I start thinking about it some more, and then I start realizing that this guy might not have any money and this guy might be selling dreams. Mm-Hmm. . And I start feeling a little abused because of the whole situation. And you gave me some good advice, which I'll go into. But ultimately here I am two and a half weeks later with a signed contract that will get me in the WGA and pay me $75,000 to write a feature film and be a producer on the film, which I included in the contract and they agreed to mm-hmm. and I have no money in my account and I have a basically void contract.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Because the guy was just a, he was a psycho, he was just a, he wasn't even a scammer, he was just a,Phil Hudson:He's got access to my bank account. I sent him wire information, he can technically pull money outta my account with an ACH withdrawal or write checks off that account. None of that has happened. And you would think someone who was scamming you, that's how you do it. Find people who look like they're successful in Hollywood because I have an IMDB credit that makes you look successful and take money out of their account, selling them the dream. That hasn't even happened. And so you pointed out, you know, these are delusions of grandeur. Yeah. And you said, don't feel like that guy robbed you of a dream or stole your dream and scamming you that guy. That's that guy's dream too. Yeah. And my wife pointed out in his mind, he probably legitly thinks he's gonna make this happen because there's a level of mental instability here.Michael Jamin:Yeah. This is his dream is to be a producer or director or whatever. And it doesn't really matter. I'll, I'll, I'm gonna make it happen. But I mean, he is obviously nuts, so that's heartbreaking to find out that you were this close. And the guy is delusional. So,Phil Hudson:Well, we'll, going back to what I said about my daughter, like thinking, I literally just thought of that moment and you know, I shared this with you too. The moment I signed that contract, I recorded a video for my kids talking about how you can chase your dreams and it will go true. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And that is a fake false moment. Yeah. I felt all of the emotions, all real, not true. But I thought of my daughter and I thought of her falling down on that playground and I said, all right, get back to work. And so I just started writing something elseMichael Jamin:And I'd write about that immediate, it's so I'd I'd write about that guy , I'd write about that. And how, you know, you, I don't know, I I, cause I, you know, I write personal essay. If it happened to me, I'd be like, oh, that's, there's a story in there for sure.Phil Hudson:Sure.Michael Jamin:But yeah, there's so much, there's just, I, I just think people, getting back to what we were talking about, I just think people are you know, they just want it to happen. They just want to turn their script in, get hired. But in truth, if you look at successful people, they, you know, they all, they all suffered for a long time. And they built a mountain. And I, you know, I don't know what you're obviously what your plan is or what you're gonna do. It'd be easier to have your script obviously made by someone else and bought. But obviously there's things you could still do on your own. Sure. And you know.Phil Hudson:Sure. And you know, we, I think that's the conversation with the attorney is can I still write that script? Even though it's public domain, they didn't bring anything unique to it. Probably Okay to do that. But there is a, a paper trail now and, and I don't know, but on the other hand, I think this is something you talk about all the time mm-hmm. and in h in hindsight,Michael Jamin:The money never changed hands. Was it his ideaPhil Hudson:Contract was never executed. He brought the idea to us. Oh. But it's a public domain historical thing. Okay. And he, nothing he brought us is not in the public domain.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay.Phil Hudson:Okay. So, and the contract's void, like, because he didn't exchange money. So. Right. On what I, what I was gonna say is, you said this for a long time. I think we said it on the webinar, we just did like producers, like we're talking about pitch fests and and stuff. People who want to hire professional screenwriters go to the wga, cuz that's where the professional writers are. Yeah. And if someone with a 12 million budget offers you to write that script, and I'm not saying it's not gonna happen or has never happened, but I should have, that should have been red flag number one. But I was blinded by that dream, so I was trying to find a shortcut. I was trying to get ahead Yeah. By working the system. And at the end of the day, I didn't pay a price for it, but I learned a valuable lesson, which is, you know, don't get your hopes up until money's in your account. Make sure you cross all the T's and do your research.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But we've talked, we've spoken about, we have, have, I'm sure we've spoken about this guy who did this movie called Thunder RoadPhil Hudson:Yeah. Didn't think we talked about itMichael Jamin:Once. How, how he shot this. And it turns out it was a it was a feature that he submitted, but it was, I, I only saw the scene and the scene that he shot was that I, I was totally impressed by. It's on Vimeo or YouTube, I don't know, it was just took place in a church. It was one scene, a handful of extras. And he was pretty much the only talking part. And that could have been shot to me. It stood on itself. It was a scene that could have been a short, it could have lived on its own. I didn't know it was part of a larger movie. And to me it was brilliant. It was brilliantly acted and written and it was emotional and it was funny. And it's something, it, it's, it got my attention and I'm sure I got the attention of a lot bigger people than myself. And it's something he could've done. I mean, he, if he wanted to, he get a shot at in a day using an, a couple of iPhones, you know? Right. It didn't have to. And it was, you know, all you need is good sound and, but do something like that. And I mean, all can, all of us can do something like that. Something small, you know.Phil Hudson:For sure. For sure.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I, I think, you know, this is I think a lesson that a lot of us need, which is you need to be comfortable being, you need to put yourself in situations where it is difficult by choice, right? Mm-Hmm. , you need to almost experience death, if you will, but in a controlled environment. And that's what I, I mean, I've talked about it before. One of the things that impressed me early on is like, you have a hill that you run up regularly.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Push upPhil Hudson:Today. You push to run up a hill upMichael Jamin:Today. Yeah.Phil Hudson:You run up a hill. Why? Because it's hard.Michael Jamin:Yeah. YouPhil Hudson:Don't run on flat ground, you run up a hill.Michael Jamin:It's a little harder. There is a wonderful video by that. David Bowie talked, you know, spoke about where he talks about if you wanna do something great, you have to swim in waters just deep enough so you can't touch the bottom. And so, you know, talking about outta your comfort zone and, and yeah. You have to be willing to, to risk. And that's where you do, that's where art is made. And that's where like, you know, that's where all the, that's where the advances come. That's where the growth comes, is when you're in over your head. So God. And so what if you make something terrible? Yeah. And what, so what, so what? Yeah. You know yeah. What you get trolled by people who don't do anything with their lives and what's their, what's their point? YouPhil Hudson:Know? I know, I know we've read the quote, the poem before, but it's the I believe it's Teddy Roosevelt wrote the poem, man in the arena, right? Yeah. Which is right. Yeah. Yeah. Every, everyone goes after and has words to say about the man in the arena. Yeah. But at the end of the day, you can't listen to him cuz they're not in the arena getting punched in the face. Right? Yeah. And that's, that's what this is. It's getting punched in the face willingly knowing that your body can heal itself. Your ego can heal itself, your mind can heal itself, and you get stronger and more resilient. And you do that by degrees. You don't have to go drowned. You can do a cold plunge in your shower, just turn the water cold. That sucks. That's not fun.Michael Jamin:Brene Brene Brown talks about this on, on, you know, on her list special or Netflix special. Yeah. That's what vulnerability is getting outta your comfort zone. And that's when great things happen. And, and it's not just a cliche, it's not just talk. It's like, no guys, this is where good things happen is when you do things that are hard outta your comfort zone. And if you, I'm always amazed, I'm always inspired by people, whatever. You can see 'em on social media and there could be doing something, I don't know, riding a skateboard on a, on a rail. They could be doing something, you know, some, like, none of that is easy. And all of that requires a commitment to like doing this over and over again and taking your knocks. And, and I, you know, sure. I may look at it and think, well yeah, but you're, you know, you're just skateboarding. But no, they're not just skateboarding. They're like, they're, they're getting their head kicked in and they make it look easy, but it's only because they've been doing it so damn long.Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them queue for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchList.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I think society looks at skateboarders and we're using skateboarders as a skateboarders, as a metaphor for people who do things that are strange or not common. And, and art and craft, I think fall into that category. Yeah. Shooting your videos, putting your YouTube videos up, doing a podcast, doing your TikTok videos, whatever. But, but there was a, a psychologist who talked about skateboarders and they're like, don't worry about the skateboarders. They're gonna be fine. They know of adversity. Yeah. It's the other people. It's the people sitting at home not taking risk. That's it. And right about that time I saw this video, it went pretty viral and it was a kid and he's just out practicing this move on, practicing this move on a skateboard over and over and over and over. And the feeling I got was just like, I don't know that I've practiced anything with this much intensity and courage. And then when he lands it, like I wanted to cry, I wanna cry now thinking about how happy I was for that kid landing this thing that he spent all day Yeah. Trying to do. Yeah. And that's just triumph of the human spirit. That's literally what moves us as humanity. Yeah. It's overcoming, overcoming obstacles. It's story, right? It's you, it's your definition of that.Michael Jamin:I it's funny you mention mentioning cuz you've helped me. You know, I ran the marketing, my, my wife had a girl's clothing company called Twirly Girl for many years. And I helped her with the marketing of that. And in the beginning you were a big help. That's how we met. Because I didn't know anything about digital marketing. You were, you were big help on that. And the company was flailing for a long time, like, you know, barely making any money. And I, I signed up for something called 10,000 Small Businesses, which is a, a program sponsored by gold. Goldman Sachs almost created the economy, you know, way back in, I don't know, 2008 or something. Maybe it was longer. I don't know. And so as their penance, they decided to create this small business program where they help small business owners kind of become more profitable.And it's free. All you gotta do is apply to it and open up your book. So I applied, I found out about it and it's like a first class program. It's like, I don't know how many, 10 weeks, one day a week for 10 weeks. And I managed to make time to get into it and I got into it and it was a blessing. And it was, honestly, it was first class and they described it as not a you know, MBA teaches you about all business. This was a mini mba, which teaches you about your business. So I had to come in and I had to do a business plan at the end of the 10 weeks. You gotta do a business plan on your business. How you gonna make your business profitable? I'm like, I don't, how do I know I couldn't, I haven't done that in forever.Why would I know now? So, but I did all the steps that they tell you to do. And at the end I came up with this business plan and this is just when Facebook advertising was kind of taking off. And so I was like, okay, maybe if I did this on, if I made up a whole business plan for Facebook advertising and I had projections and I had a budget and I told my wife, I go, I'm gonna spend, I don't remember how much money, maybe it was like a thousand dollars. I go, I said, I know we're not making any money, but I wanna spend a thousand dollars doing this. And I had this whole strategy mapped out. I go, if it works, we'll make money. And if it doesn't, we're out a thousand bucks. Are you okay with that? And she was like, yeah, you, we have to.Right. So I did this business plan and I had projections and, and I, you know, I, I mapped it. Yeah. My projections, if I, if I spent this much money, this is how much I think we'll make. And then we spent the money and at the end of the month I added up the projections versus reality and I was off by something like 10 cents or something. Wow. But, and but that, that was probably, that was probably like a giant coincidence. Like I could have been off by 300 or $200 and it would've been fine cuz there's a margin of error would've been fine. So the fact that I was off by like 10 cents is like, it was a lot of luck. Phil Hudson:Mind, mind blowing though.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But it was mind blowing. And I was so, like, I remember I went for a run that day and I was almost in tears. Cause I was like, oh my God, we finally figured it out. Like it took so long for us to finally make money with this business. We were just bleeding money for all this time. And we tried everything. And the fact that this finally worked after just not giving up, I wanted to cry. I was like, oh my God, thank God I didn't stop. You know?Phil Hudson:So Yeah. That's, it's resilience. It's resilience. I went to a Tony Robbins event and say what you will about Tony Robbins? But I went to an event and he said, the thing really just impacted me. He's like, I went to the Olympics in Atlanta and they bring out an Olympian, a gold medalist from like the 1940s who was still alive. And everyone in the stadium stood and cheered for this person. And it's like, why? Because that person did something unimaginable. They, they were world class at what they did 60 years ago, 50 years ago. And we still respected. And it's, it's about the effort and the time and the sacrifice that went into that. And it applies to everything else. I mean, how much time have you put into your craft of writing? How much time are you writing when you're not being paid to write Michael? All the time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. All the time. But, and when people said like, well I have a script, or you know, or sometimes they, it's so, it's very frustrating when they, they, you know, they talk about the gatekeepers and they talk about why everything's so unfair. And it's like, well what? And I ask like, well what have you done though? You know, where do you live? Oh, I'm in Cleveland. You know, you're gonna complain about gatekeepers cuz there are people out here trying to break into Hollywood. They got a leg up on you. They're sacrificing more and you're gonna complain about gatekeepers. What do you know from Cleveland? What do you know? What do you know about Hollywood? You are in Cleveland, you know, but they have these preconceived notions about what it is they've already given up and you haven't even tried. And you think they, they think they've tried, but they haven't. They really haven't. They haven't done everything. You know, and the people who are here who've given up more, guess what they deserve to be at the front of the linePhil Hudson:Season three of Tacoma f I was it was like we were shooting late and the producer from a 24 Savvy, she came in and she was talking to us and she was talking to me and the other pa and we were just talking about like our experience in Hollywood so far. And she was like, she heard my story. And she's like, I asked her how, what her story was. And she's like, well I pulled a Phil and it was very kind of her to say that, but she's like, I did the same thing you did where I started working on a show as an assistant mm-hmm. . And then they kept me on for the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I just worked on that show year round for several years. And then I became the line producer's assistant and then I learned how to do a producing. And she just worked her way up the exact same way that I was trying to do. She's just younger than me, but she's on the, did the exact same path of sacrifice. Right. That's probably dozens if not hundreds of people in LA who have done the exact same thing of busting their butt doing things that they feel are beneath them to make it work. It's not unique. It's about the commitment. Right. And how much can you tolerate?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. And, and it doesn't even take a lot of talent. It doesn't take a lot of talent to, to do the work. It doesn't, it just takes you a commitment to doing the work. Doesn't mean you're gonna be successful. No. Cuz talent does play an element, but the, the, the hard the the building the mountain just takes no talent at all. It, you know, that, that's just work. Anyone can do that.Phil Hudson:We all know what a mountain looks like. Right? Yeah.Michael Jamin:And, and, you know, and to to, to build on that metaphor, you know, what is mountain climbing? Like mountain climbing's, just walking guys, when people go to the climb to the top of Everest, guess what? They're just walking, they're walking in the cold, they're walking with a oxygen mask at times they're walking hooked up to ropes with little air to breathe. I get it. But they're still just walking, you know? Right. So, and what they do is impo, you know, incredible. But again, it's walking. So if you wanna climb your mountain, can you, do you know how to walk? I mean, that's it. It's just one step at a time.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I might have talked about this on the podcast before, so forgive me if it's redundant, but someone asked me recently like, well how did you get to la? Like how did you transition out of doing SEO and digital marketing to do this? And it was like 2009 or 10 mm-hmm. . And I started volunteering at the, at the Sundays Film Festival. And I was living with some roommates at the time and I just started this job in sales and I was not very good at it. And all I wanted to do was write. That's all I wanted to do. And for two years had been writing really bad features and they were just horrible. And I was like, well there's, I know where I want to go is be in Hollywood and be a professional writer. And so the shortest path, the direct line is just write, write, write.But at the same time, I had just gotten out of the recession and I was just making my life better. And I was like, okay, how, how am I gonna make this work? I need to get to la. How am I gonna get to la? I need to have money. What kind of money? Because if I wanna write in LA I'm gonna have to have a lot more money than I have now and I'm gonna probably gonna need some sort of passive income. And I don't know that passive income's ever actually passive, but I'm gonna need something that generates money so I can spend time on my craft. Well, I know how to do e-commerce and I'm at a company that teaches e-commerce and I can get really good at that and then that will generate money. So I'm just shipping things and handling customer support instead of waiting tables.So, so that sounds good, but what do I need to do to be able to afford that? So while I need to learn how to sell things, I need to make money now to be able to afford that. So I went home that day, I said, in five years, here's where I'll be, I'll be in la I'll have a pr, a profitable e-commerce business, which is what our company did. And I will be able to write and work for three hours a day and then write. And it may not be a lot, but I'll survive. And I literally went home and I went into my room and I took my Xbox and I unplugged it and I put it in my roommate's room and I set it down. And then where my t where it was on the tv, I took the TV and I put it in the closet and I sat down at my desk and I would go to work and I would suck at selling.And then I would sit there and I just read sales books. And within a week I started making money because I put time and intention and focus into my mountain, which was sales. And within six months I was the number one sales rep at the entire company with the worst leads. But I was making so much money that I was like, okay, now I can take a step back. And it's not tons of money guys. Like this is like a ton of money for me at the time. Cause I grew up super poor. It was like $74,000 a year at 24 years old. Stupid money for a 24 year old kid in 2010 or 11. And so beyond that, the next thing that I did was, okay, now I need to take the same amount of time I was putting into sales and put it in e-commerce.And I would just sit there and I'd put in the DVD training series, which is like the equivalent of your screenwriting course. And I would just watch the guru teach people how to do the job. This is what we sold. And I would just do what he said. And within three months, my website was making more money than I was making in commissions at the job. And then I went in and I talked to him cuz he had an open door policy at the company. And I said, Hey Parker, do you mind just looking at my site? He looked through a bunch of things, he's like, you did this? And I was like, yeah. He's like, this is a success story. Congrats. And I was like, awesome. And I just kept doing that and doing that. And then when that started doing well, then I started focus on riding and I, because that was my next mountain.And then I took a huge detour through Santa Fe to go to film school because of my Sundance stuff. But I was also volunteering for 40 hours at Sundance while working. And that was my way of staying in the business and doing it. And I would write for a couple hours on the weekend. So that's, that's not unique to me. I'm not saying that to toot my own horn. What I'm saying is, for anybody listening who's struggling is you need to define where you want to go and backfill the steps to get there. And I think what you're saying is those are the mountains and the mountain screenwriting. How am I gonna get to la? That's a mountain. Once you're in LA how do you get a job in the industry? That's a mountain, right? It's just step by step by step,Michael Jamin:Right? Yeah. You gotta put the work. And this, this shouldn't be, I don't know why it's surprising to people sometimes when I say stuff like, make these comments on in these posts on social media, like, man, this guy gets it. He's under like, he's dropping bombs. Like, what? I don't know. This is just the truth. I don't know. It's like, isn't it just obvious? You know? Yeah. there's just no shortcuts. I wish, you know, wouldn't be great. Like you, you don't get to take a helicopter to the top of the mountain and and plant your flag. It just doesn't work that way.Phil Hudson:You gotta climb. And if you do, you will very shortly fall down the mountain because you don't know how to have sure. Footing on the mountainMichael Jamin:And you won't appreciate what you've done there. You won't be able to take a celebrate. Cuz it'll be like, yeah, I, I took a helicopter. You know, and so that's the problem with what I see sometimes with people. Like, well, how do I sell my screenplay? How do I sell my I my idea? Your idea? No, no, no, no. You don't sell your idea. You know? Yep. You wanna write it fine. Learn how to write. Everyone wants to skip that step. That part's too hard. They, they just wanna sell it.Phil Hudson:Right? From an action perspective, other than, you know, the classic self-development or personal development five year goal and backtrack, you know, five year goal, one year goal, six month goal, quarterly goal, weekly goal, monthly goal, weekly goal, daily goal. Like doing that to keep your focus and stay on a trajectory beyond that. As a writer, what do you see are the actionable steps people can do to build the mountain? And, and I I think this might be more related to craft. You've done a lot of content on go do it yourself, don't let people hold you back, make your own content. But from a, from a craft perspective, what do you think people can do? Cuz that seems to be the place where most people struggle, is knowing how to tell a good story and do it properly.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, the people wanna skip that part. You know, obviously we have a course and you're welcome, anyone's welcome. We only open enrollment a few days a month, but if they wanna go check that out, it's at michael chapman.com/course where I teach you everything that I've known, everything I learned at the feet of better writers than my myself working on pro, you know, professional television shows. And so I, that's what I teach you. Like how we break a story. It could every day because we can't wait for inspiration. You, you get paid, you have to get paid, you have to make a TV show this week. So I teach you that. And I think it's actually like, what I recommend is for people to just go through the course and watch a half hour. It's a long course. I say watch a half hour a day and which is not gonna kill you.It's a half hour. And then at the end of the month, you'll have finished the course and then you'll have a habit. Like, okay, from nine 30 to 10, I always write, I always work on my writing. So, so do that. And you know, and, and stop worrying about, I also say like, people always say write one screenplay. They they polish it, they work on it, work on it. No, no. Put it, finish it, put it aside and working on another one because it's the, it's the beginning to end process that will make you better. And then when you look back on your fifth screenplay, you compare it to your first, I don't care how much work you did on the first number, five's gonna be much better. It just is. And, and that just from doing the work, you know. But any, you know, anyone can do it. Anyone can just sit down and work.Phil Hudson:Yep. You put out tons of free content on your social media as well. And there are probably a lot of people here who found you. So you know that. But for those who stumble upon this podcast or a friend shared it with you, Michael Jamon, writer on social media, tons of great stuff. Podcasts,Michael Jamin:Instagram,Phil Hudson:Tiktok. Yeah. This podcast has a ton of great info on it as well. Yeah, it's just, I mean, look, the answer is do the work, right?Michael Jamin:I also, you know, and I, I have a ton of like posts, ton of free stuff and people are like, whoa, you have too much. I have too much. Like, so sit down and watch a post. Now you're complaining that you have too much free help . So watch a post a day, watch five a day. Is that gonna hurt you? Each one is three minutes long, so it's 15 minutes. Like I don't, I don't know what to tell you. Like, it's free, it's therePhil Hudson:. Yeah. That, that's upsetting to me right here behind my diploma. I have this book and it was the first book I wrote on screenwriting. Cause like, I didn't even know, I didn't know until I was 21 that there was a, a format for writing TV. And I knew I wanted to do it since I was 12 because the internet was new when I was a kid. Like you don't know. And so I went into a Barnes and Noble and I went through the movie theater section. I found two books on screenwriting. Mm-Hmm. . I bought the one that made the most sense to me. The Complete Idiot's Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press. And I went home and I just devoured that book. All I wanted to do was read that book and I got to the end and it was resources and there's a link to a couple websites in there.And one of 'em was word Player by Ted Elliot and TecIO, who were like legends in the screenwriting world. And I went to their site word player.com and I found, and it's not a pretty site, it is like forums from the nineties mm-hmm. . but there were articles that they would do on a o l in the late nineties that they had republished there. And I just started going through them one by one and reading them and rereading them. And I was so committed to this. I set it as my home tab on my computer. Wow. So when I logged in, I would see their site load and the first day I did that I got a notice saying I was banned from the site and couldn't access it. And I had to contact the webmaster and the server had flagged me for spamming the site because I went to it too much.Michael Jamin:They thought you were spamming it just cuz you were reading it.Phil Hudson:That was cuz I was just kept going. Cuz every time I opened a browser it would load that site. And so it was, and it felt like I was like spamming. It's out of time on the web. But you know, it kept flagging me because my IP address was being flagged as like a brute force attack or a DDoS attack or whatever you wanna call it. And so I had to contact the webmaster and be like, Hey, I'm just really committed to my craft and I just really wanna be able to look at the site every time I feel like I might get distracted by something on the web, I can remember my purpose. And she's like, okay. So she whitelisted my IP and I could keep going back to the site, but Wow. There were like 40 articles on that. Michael, you've put up a post every day for almost two years. That's almost, that's over 700 pieces of content. Yeah. Not including, we're at like almost 90 episodes of the podcast that are between 30 minutes and an hour each. Mm-Hmm. not to mention the articles in your website. Yeah. Not to mention the free course, not to mention the free PDFs that we give away in your webinars. Yeah. Not to mention the monthly webinars. So it's actually kind of upsetting to me that people say you have too much cuz I was dying in the desert hoping for water, and I found an oasis. Right.Michael Jamin:Someone, you know, I don't think they were talking my be either left to comment my, my posts, you know, saying you, you Hollywood gatekeepers. I'm like, gatekeepers, dude, I'm on here every fricking day trying to tell you what to do. Who's the gatekeeper? Who's the gatekeeper?Phil Hudson:You know? Yeah. And that all that is is a, it's a, it's a belief that you have in your mind and it's a, a very subtle way, your unconscious mind is protecting you from failure. Yeah.Right. You talked about friends who have tremendous talent or who come out here and then wash out. Yeah. And I have friends, I have people I moved out here with. I have people who from my film school moved out here and they had roommates and out of all those people, I think I've said it on here, there's like three of those people in LA of all, all of Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. from the hundreds of people I went to college with. And one's an agent's assistant or maybe an agent. Now one is an actual WGA writer, one is the head of creative development for an actual production company. Mm-Hmm. , there's me who's just a guy who handles plumbing on a TV show effectively. Right? Mm-hmm. . But, but there are very few, and I do have friends who are literally afraid to push themselves and do work because they don't wanna disappoint their dad. His dad gave them crap for wanting to pursue art and said, you will fail and when you fail, you'll have a home here and we can find work for you, God. And so they don't want to fail, so they won't take risks because as long as they're tangentially working in, in around the industry, God, they haven't failed. So they, they no won't push themselves.Michael Jamin:It's so sad. Like my daughter wanted to be an artist when she was in grade school and then she applied to the School of the Arts, which is a, a free, it's a free school you know, public school for the high school, but you have to apply for it. And I was like, I'm not helping you do this. Like, if you want it, you're gonna have to do it yourself. And she did do it herself. And she got in and she went, now she's at Cooper Union, which is a great art school in New York City because like, being an artist is hard, but she's so committed. And the other day she sent me, she said, Hey I'm gonna submit my film to a, like a film festival, like an art film school, art festival. Like, not not narrative, but Mark, you know, kind of avantgarde. And I go, gimme the bill. You know, it wasn't even alive. It was like 78 bucks. But I was like, I'm paying for it because yeah. Like that's it. I want, I want her to be able to, you know, so cool. I don't, I like, that's like the least I can do because I didn't support her then because I didn't know how serious she was, you know, because Yeah. You know, and she'sPhil Hudson:Proven herself.Michael Jamin:She's proven herself now. So, no, I'm doing, I'm paying. I, I go, I wanna pay for this cuz you've proven it yourself. SoPhil Hudson:It's, it's easy to say you want to be a professional NBA player. It's hard to sit there after everyone goes home and keep shooting for he throws and then shoot three pointers and then run sprints and do ladders. It's like, yeah. That's the work no one wants to do. It's not sexy, it's hard, it's sweaty. And that's, that's so hard.Michael Jamin:Right? And when that person does the work though, then you wanna help them. You don't wanna help them before, right? Yeah. But when you see someone busting their ass, you go, okay, please let me help you because you are busting your ass. Yeah. And so bust your ass first and then maybe someone will help you. But don't ask for help before you haven't done anything, you know, because no one wants Yeah. Because it just feels like, ah, you know, how serious are you? I don't, why am I gonna get behind you if you're not serious?Phil Hudson:Yeah. And, and I might err too far on the other side of this personally, but, you know, I had a, a call with Paul Soder of Broken Lizard who, and I had the opportunity to help them outside of the film quasi they did on Hulu, but also like, ran their social media and went on tour with them, which was super cool experience. And I had a moment where I was like at dinner with them, and I believe Kevin Heffernan brought up something. It's me, Kevin, Jay, and Paul. And we're sitting at dinner and he's like, he brought up something and it was talking about how, like, it was talking about hard work and effort and you had to put in and, and I just had this moment where it clicked for me. And I said, you know, Kevin, I appreciate what you're saying. And he's basically into the fact that if we complain about the fact that we think we've earned opportunities and people, other people get them, that we need to understand that many of the things we're frustrated about serve a very valuable purpose.You know? And he said, he said that, and I said, you know, I'm having the realization now that the fact that I'm sitting at the table with you guys is because anytime I've not gotten something from you guys that other people have told me I deserved, I've never said a word to you about it. Mm-Hmm. . And he said, exactly right. I don't, I'm not looking for anything from those guys. Right. I'm looking to earn it when it's time. And it stings and it's frustrating when it doesn't come and other people told you should, but those are expectations people put in my head. They're not expectations I have in my heart. And I let that get in the way, and then I have to work through that pain and, and frustration to get back to my baseline of it doesn't matter. And look, Paul Suter was calling and asking for help with what I do in the digital marketing world. And I was like, I'm happy to help you. And he was like, no, no, I want to pay you. And I was like, look man, I think it's important that I help you as a way of giving back for what you've already done. He's like, well, you know, and it's like I had to, I had to help him understand. No, I feel gratitude. I feel a debt of gratitude, not the other way around.Michael Jamin:I mean, think about that though. Felt whatever, 10 years ago. How long, when did you move to la?Phil Hudson:I moved to LA in 2016, so it's been almost seven years.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. So if I had told you seven yearsPhil Hudson:Ago, but, but I would've, you told me to move here in, to be fair, in 2013 when we met, right. And I got the scholarship opportunity like a month later, you're not gonna turn. And so I took like a three, I took a three year delay to get here,Michael Jamin:But, all right, but if I told you seven years ago that you'd be sitting at the table with these filmmakers in their, in their presence, who they're very successful and you know, just absorbing and learning from them. Like you'd be, are you outta your mind? I mean, those guys are,Phil Hudson:I would've, I would've thought you were crazy in no way. Yeah. I, I had that moment too. We were on tour and they were taking a photo and I was like, oh, let me get outta the way. And they're like, no, no, Phil stay and mm-hmm. I never asked them for photos, I never asked them for autographs. I never do any of those things. And now I, it's like weird too. Cause I had to check myself to say, and anyway, I have this photo of them at dinner which is really cool cuz it's not something I would ever ask for. But at the same time I recognize that I, I see them as friends now. Yeah. Which is even crazier, right? Yeah. And I had to check myself on tour when I'm standing at Wrigley Field on the ma like on the field. You're on the field while field Jay's throwing out the first pitch. OhMichael Jamin:Wow. Isn't that great? And IPhil Hudson:Have the, I have the ball over here cuz Jay gave me the ball after.Michael Jamin:Oh, that's nice. So like, that's nice.Phil Hudson:I had to check myself and say, this is a dream I would've killed for in 2000 2, 3, 4 when I was in high school. I would've killed for this.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And think how close you Yeah. You're, I mean, so you're taking these steps. You're, like I said, you're, you're one of the guys building the mountain. SoPhil Hudson:I appreciate it. It'll take usMichael Jamin:Long takes, I takes,Phil Hudson:You know, I just wanna reiterate to everyone and, and I understand that there's a lot of cynicism on the internet because there are a lot of self-serving people who focus on how can I get ahead? And there are a lot of people who accuse me of being insincere. Michael, you know me, that'sMichael Jamin:Cra it's cra I don't, I don't know who's, who's, I don't know what context they said that.Phil Hudson:It's a lot of people who don't know me. And I get it cuz there are people who are insincere and doing things to get ahead. And I run into those people. I'm not that person. And when I tell these stories or anything that's successful, I almost feel ashamed because it feels braggadocious and prideful and mm-hmm. , there is pride behind it. Cuz I am proud of the work that I have put in. I have climbed the mountains Yeah. That have gotten me to where I am. But at the same time, I'm, I'm just trying to help inspire you at home to put in the time, energy, and effort necessary to pursue your dreams and surround yourself with the right mentors and people who have been where you want to be.Michael Jamin:Yep.Phil Hudson:Serve them with every skillset you have. Anybody can go pick up drag cleaning, anybody can go walk a dog. Yeah. You don't need, you don't need to understand digital marketing and the complex nuances of Facebook algorithms to do w what I'm doing. You can do it yourself and do it freely without expectation.Michael Jamin:As, as a wrap up, I wanna leave people with the wise words of my seventh grade English teacher, , her name was Miss to and she was, and her name was Miss Tomb. And she used to say, time's passing, but you are not . Ooh. And I fucking, I always love that. And I was like, miss Tomb, I'm in the honors program. I dunno what your talking, I don't know what this empty thread is, but but like, yeah, don't let time pass and, you know, and, and not do it. I love that time's pass. So, you know, make sure you use your time. Use your time. May build a mountain.Phil Hudson:That'sMichael Jamin:Beautiful. All right, Philly.Phil Hudson:Okay. Well, Michael obviously we've talked about a bunch of the resources you have. Yeah. And we always end with this is just because again, there are a lot, there's a lot of content, but you have the free lesson from your course. It's available to anybody, teaches you what story is and the definition, again, literally the first thing you ever taught me, you shot me an email, I failed miserably. Mm-Hmm. , go learn. So you don't have to fail, but that's michaeljamin.com/free. You have the course you can get, you can learn more about it and sign up to be notified when it's open @michaeljamin.com/course. You have your book that you're working on and touring. Any updates on touring?Michael Jamin:No updates. I'm still, we're still agonizing over the title. I'm working that out. I, it's been a process. But yeah, all this stuff is free. I got a lot of time, ton of free resources on my website. Michael jam.com. Just go visitPhil Hudson:And michael jamin do com. Michael jamin.com/upcoming is where they can get info about the book though. Right. And tourMichael Jamin:And all that stuff upcoming is for my tours. Yeah. Cool. And that's it.Phil Hudson:Alright. If it was a pleasure, Michael, I appreciate the time. It's very fruitful hour of conversation for me. I feel better,Michael Jamin:I feel bette

Kevin Heffernan of Broken Lizard joins Ralph Sutton and James Mattern and they discuss Kevin Heffernan's new Broken Lizard movie Quasi on Hulu, the hierarchy of the members of Broken Lizard, who Kevin Heffernan would f**k, marry and kill of the Broken Lizard members, how he and Steve Lemme first met, the upcoming season of Tacoma FD, firemen getting their penises caught in things, why fart toys are his favorite gift to receive, working with Michael Clarke Duncan, his favorite movie to film, whether there will be a Pot Fest movie and more before they play a game to see if Kevin Heffernan can match his movie quote to the film where every wrong answer will force Blind Mike to chug a beer!(Air Date: April 19th, 2023)Support our sponsors!YoDelta.com - Use promo code: Gas to get 25% off!To advertise your product or service on GaS Digital podcasts please go to TheADSide.comand click on "Advertisers" for more information!The SDR Show merchandise is available at https://podcastmerch.com/collections/the-sdr-showYou can watch The SDR Show LIVE for FREE every Wednesday and Saturday at 9pm ET at GaSDigitalNetwork.com/LIVEOnce you're there you can sign up at GaSDigitalNetwork.com with promo code: SDR for a 7-day FREE trial with access to every SDR show ever recorded! On top of that you'll also have the same access to ALL the shows that GaS Digital Network has to offer!Follow the whole show on social media!Kevin HeffernanTwitter: https://www.twitter.com/heffernanrulesBroken Lizard Twitter: https://twitter.com/BrokenLizardInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/heffernanlemmeBroken Lizard Instagram: https://instagram.com/BrokenLizardJames L. MatternTwitter: https://twitter.com/jameslmatternInstagram: https://instagram.com/thejamesmatternRalph SuttonTwitter: https://twitter.com/iamralphsuttonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamralphsutton/The SDR ShowTwitter: https://twitter.com/theSDRshowInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesdrshow/GaS Digital NetworkTwitter: https://twitter.com/gasdigitalInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/gasdigital/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Santino sits down for gobs of fun with the boys from Broken Lizard and stars of Super Troopers, and Beerfest, Kevin Heffernan, Steve Lemme, and Jay Chandrasekhar! We got auto accidents. We got stories about P. Swayz, Snoop Dogg and so much more. Strap in right meow! Also, make sure you check out their new movie Quasi out now on Hulu! #brokenlizard #supertroopers #beerfest #quasi #whiskeyginger #podcast ============================== SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS RABBIT HOLE $5 OFF with Promo Code: WHISKEY https://rabbitholedistillery.com/drizly SQUARESPACE Get that site up and running now! 10% off your order https://squarespace.com/whiskey SUNDAY Get 20% OFF YOUR ORDER! https://getsunday.com/whiskey20 MYBOOKIE Use PROMO CODE: WHISKEY For you 1st deposit bonus! https://mybookie.website/WhiskeyGinger ======================== Follow Andrew Santino: https://www.instagram.com/cheetosantino/ https://twitter.com/CheetoSantino Follow Whiskey Ginger: https://www.instagram.com/whiskeyging... https://twitter.com/whiskeyginger_ Produced and edited by Joe Faria IG: @itsjoefaria Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today, Tom, Brittany and Rudy start the talking about the current state of radio.In the first hour, Bob Sansevere breaks down how bad the Timberwolves are. Plus, Kristyn Burtt has some inside scoops on Hollywood news!In hour #2, Pat Boone calls in to to promote his latest record and celebrate 70 years in entertainment. KSTP's Chris Egert calls in from the road, driving to Milwaukee for his daughter's basketball tournament. Lastly, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme from Broken Lizard call in to chat about their new movie Quasi!In the final hour of the show, SKOR North's Phil Mackey and Kent Hrbek talk Twins coming back to town and Tim Lammers gives us his review of movies opening this weekend!Stream the show LIVE on the Tom. Barnard Show app M-F from 7-10AM or get the show on-demand on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts!Make sure to download the FREE Tom Barnard app for your chance to win the $10,000 "Pick Your Prize" contest just by registering! You're automatically entered in the drawing every time you open the app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today, Tom, Brittany and Rudy start the talking about the current state of radio.In the first hour, Bob Sansevere breaks down how bad the Timberwolves are. Plus, Kristyn Burtt has some inside scoops on Hollywood news!In hour #2, Pat Boone calls in to to promote his latest record and celebrate 70 years in entertainment. KSTP's Chris Egert calls in from the road, driving to Milwaukee for his daughter's basketball tournament. Lastly, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme from Broken Lizard call in to chat about their new movie Quasi!In the final hour of the show, SKOR North's Phil Mackey and Kent Hrbek talk Twins coming back to town and Tim Lammers gives us his review of movies opening this weekend!Stream the show LIVE on the Tom. Barnard Show app M-F from 7-10AM or get the show on-demand on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts!Make sure to download the FREE Tom Barnard app for your chance to win the $10,000 "Pick Your Prize" contest just by registering! You're automatically entered in the drawing every time you open the app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today, Tom, Brittany and Rudy start the talking about the current state of radio.In the first hour, Bob Sansevere breaks down how bad the Timberwolves are. Plus, Kristyn Burtt has some inside scoops on Hollywood news!In hour #2, Pat Boone calls in to to promote his latest record and celebrate 70 years in entertainment. KSTP's Chris Egert calls in from the road, driving to Milwaukee for his daughter's basketball tournament. Lastly, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme from Broken Lizard call in to chat about their new movie Quasi!In the final hour of the show, SKOR North's Phil Mackey and Kent Hrbek talk Twins coming back to town and Tim Lammers gives us his review of movies opening this weekend!Stream the show LIVE on the Tom. Barnard Show app M-F from 7-10AM or get the show on-demand on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts!Make sure to download the FREE Tom Barnard app for your chance to win the $10,000 "Pick Your Prize" contest just by registering! You're automatically entered in the drawing every time you open the app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Today, Tom, Brittany and Rudy start the talking about the current state of radio. In the first hour, Bob Sansevere breaks down how bad the Timberwolves are. Plus, Kristyn Burtt has some inside scoops on Hollywood news! In hour #2, Pat Boone calls in to to promote his latest record and celebrate 70 years in entertainment. KSTP's Chris Egert calls in from the road, driving to Milwaukee for his daughter's basketball tournament. Lastly, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme from Broken Lizard call in to chat about their new movie Quasi! In the final hour of the show, SKOR North's Phil Mackey and Kent Hrbek talk Twins coming back to town and Tim Lammers gives us his review of movies opening this weekend! Stream the show LIVE on the Tom. Barnard Show app M-F from 7-10AM or get the show on-demand on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts! Make sure to download the FREE Tom Barnard app for your chance to win the $10,000 "Pick Your Prize" contest just by registering! You're automatically entered in the drawing every time you open the app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jay Chandrasekhar, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme of Broken Lizard join Stugotz, Billy and Mikey A. to celebrate 420 and the release of their new movie Quasi streaming now on Hulu! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jay Chandrasekhar, Kevin Heffernan and Steve Lemme of Broken Lizard join Stugotz, Billy and Mikey A. to celebrate 420 and the release of their new movie Quasi streaming now on Hulu! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mike hangs out with the Broken Lizard guys (Super Troopers, Beerfest) and actress Adrianne Palicki (Friday Night Lights, John Wick) to talk about their new comedy Quasi coming to Hulu on 4/20! Director Kevin Heffernan, Jay Chandrasekhar, Paul Soter and Erik Stolhanske talk about why we are seeing less comedies in theaters, why this movie almost got shut down, and how Adrianne Palicki reacted when she got the part. The guys share behind the scenes stories, the unfun side of making movies, how they keep from laughing while filming and the one bit they regret from Super Troopers. Mike shares his Top 3 quotes from their movies and gets the origin of each famous line.  In the movie review, Mike gives his thoughts on Quasi, where it ranks among the Broken Lizard films, and what it was like going to his first movie premiere! In the Trailer Park, Mike talks about the fun look at the Barbie movie coming out on July 21st.  New Episodes Every Monday! Watch on YouTube: @MikeDeestro Follow Mike on TikTok: @mikedeestro Follow Mike on Instagram: @mikedeestro Follow Mike on Twitter: @mikedeestro   Email: MovieMikeD@gmail.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

#1 Broken Lizard (2009) #2 Broken Lizard (2015) #3 Broken Lizard (2018) Hosted by Superfan Giovanni Request clips: Classics@adamcarolla.com

(00:00) Intro (03:17) Broken Lizard Crew (25:13) WSD Challenge (39:08) Jeremy Piven (01:08:39) White Sox Talk (01:30:17) Cubs Strong Start (01:34:58) Toews Final GameYou can find every episode of this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Prime Members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. For more, visit barstool.link/redlineradio

Comedian Jiaoying Summers joins Adam and talks about how she was almost discarded because of China's one-child policy. They discuss Chinese UFC fighters and dream interpretations before Chris reports the news. They hear about the Dalai Lama kissing a boy and LA blaring classical music in train stations, which causes Adam to lament that all dumb people hate classical music. They also chat about Nick Cannon visiting all 11 of his kids for Easter. Finally, Broken Lizard members Jay Chandrasekhar, Steve Lemme, and Paul Soter join Adam to talk about their new movie, 'Quasi' based on the story of 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame'. The group teases the plot of 'Super Troopers 3' before getting into white actors playing Indian characters and who can chug the fastest. PLUGS: See Jiaoying Summers live: Los Angeles, CA - Hollywood Improv - April 20th San Francisco, CA - Cobbs Comedy Club - April 23rd New York, NY - New York Comedy Club - April 26th And for more dates visit: JiaoyingSummers.com And follow Jiaoying Summers on TikTok, @JiaoyingSummers See Broken Lizard's new movie, ‘Quasi' premiering on Hulu Thursday, April 20 And follow them all on Twitter: @JayChandrasekha, @SteveLemme, @PaulSoter THANKS FOR SUPPORTING TODAY'S SPONSORS: TommyJohn.com/ADAM LectricEBikes.com The Jordan Harbinger Show

Today we are joined by the Legend Jay Chandrasekhar. We recently connected with Jay when he helped direct us in a few episode of Unstable with Rob Lowe. Jay is best known for his work with the sketch comedy group Broken Lizard and for directing and starring in the Broken Lizard films Super Troopers, Club Dread, Beerfest and Super Troopers 2. Jay drops some crazy stories about his time in hollywood! Call us, leave a 60 sec voicemail with your issue or question: 323-418-2019(Start with where you're from and name for best possible advice) Check us out on tour!  Austin Moontower Festival Next!www.chadandjt.com Check out the reddit for some dank convo: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChadGoesDeep/  Episode sponsored by: ATHLETIC GREENS: If you're looking for an easier way to take supplements, Athletic Greens is giving you a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free travel packs with your first purchase. Go to athleticgreens.com/GODEEP.  HELIX SLEEP: Get 20% off all mattress orders and 2 free pillows! Go to helixsleep.com/godeep

That's right: We'll be hanging out with the full Broken Lizard crew in honor of the cult comedy hit Super Troopers. Jay Chandrasekhar, Kevin Heffernan, Steve Lemme, Paul Soter, and Erik Stolhanske will join us for a look back at the comedy that went from an indie premiere at Sundance to being quoted by everyone everywhere for the ensuing 21 years. So stop freaking out, man, and get your tickets right meow! Watch the trailer for the Broken Lizard crew's new movie Quasi here: https://www.vulture.com/2018/02/deadpool-meets-grizzled-co-star-cable-in-new-quasi-trailer.html Pre order Jesse's book, Comedy Book: How Comedy Conquered Culture–and the Magic That Makes It Work here: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374604714/comedybook Follow Jesse David Fox on Twitter and Instagram. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Things get silly when Jay Chandrasekhar and Rob Lowe get together. Today you'll hear about the hilarious behind the scenes moments on Super Troopers 2, why filming Club Dread was the most fun Broken Lizard ever had, the secret history of fake facial hair, and Jay's new app Vouch Vault! Got a question for Rob? Call our voicemail at (323) 570-4551. Yours could get featured on the show!