Now, The World don't move to the beat of just one Keeper. What might be right for you may not be right for the Keepers. ‘Cuz it takes Diff'rent Strokes to move the Keepers. Yes, it does. It Diff'rent Strokes to move the Keepers Of The Fringe. Topics discussed in this episode include: James Gunn […]
Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech, getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand2 (15s):It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (30s):How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your1 (35s):New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,2 (39s):Congratulations.1 (40s):Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.1 (1m 20s):Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.2 (1m 29s):They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,1 (1m 31s):Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.1 (2m 25s):And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.1 (3m 6s):I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.2 (3m 10s):Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?2 (3m 52s):You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.1 (3m 57s):That's amazing. Super.2 (4m 0s):So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,1 (4m 11s):I was there,2 (4m 13s):Fyi. Yes, you were1 (4m 15s):The first one, right? For your first one.2 (4m 16s):The first one.1 (4m 18s):Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.2 (4m 50s):Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.2 (5m 30s):That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.1 (6m 8s):Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.1 (6m 50s):I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked2 (7m 15s):It could've worked it1 (7m 17s):All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.2 (7m 35s):Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.2 (8m 16s):And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.1 (8m 21s):And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.1 (9m 14s):And done. What about you? What about you?2 (9m 17s):I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,1 (9m 52s):So Right.2 (9m 53s):They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.2 (10m 33s):Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.2 (11m 20s):I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got1 (11m 51s):That job because of2 (11m 52s):The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.2 (12m 34s):Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless1 (12m 58s):To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.1 (13m 39s):Period. You're so2 (13m 41s):To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.1 (14m 20s):No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.2 (14m 56s):Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.1 (15m 35s):And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,2 (15m 48s):This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.1 (16m 29s):I've never,2 (16m 30s):Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's1 (16m 50s):So cool.2 (16m 51s):Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,1 (17m 7s):The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.1 (17m 47s):It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.1 (18m 29s):I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.1 (19m 13s):That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.1 (19m 53s):So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.2 (20m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.2 (20m 56s):And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.2 (21m 37s):You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.2 (22m 18s):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.1 (22m 34s):Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.1 (23m 15s):It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.1 (23m 57s):That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,2 (24m 9s):Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.1 (24m 25s):Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.1 (25m 8s):That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.2 (25m 35s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.3 (26m 8s):Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?2 (26m 11s):Yes, you sound great. You sound1 (26m 13s):Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a2 (26m 17s):Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.3 (26m 28s):Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was2 (26m 31s):It usc? Did you go to3 (26m 32s):Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So1 (26m 36s):We just assumed you went there, but where did you go3 (26m 38s):To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?1 (26m 46s):In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So3 (26m 48s):Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well1 (26m 53s):I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,3 (26m 58s):Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What1 (27m 1s):The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.3 (27m 7s):Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.1 (27m 15s):Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.3 (27m 20s):Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh1 (27m 24s):My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,3 (27m 28s):It's1 (27m 28s):Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these3 (27m 34s):Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together1 (28m 4s):That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,3 (28m 34s):What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,1 (28m 54s):In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,3 (29m 4s):Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.1 (29m 7s):Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,3 (29m 13s):There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.1 (29m 43s):This,2 (29m 44s):And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,3 (30m 4s):You2 (30m 4s):Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.3 (30m 10s):So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.3 (30m 52s):Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I1 (30m 54s):Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.3 (30m 56s):And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,1 (30m 60s):I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name3 (31m 7s):At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a1 (31m 15s):While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.3 (31m 18s):Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.1 (31m 59s):Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?3 (32m 19s):So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,1 (32m 43s):You're a hilarious Jesuit.3 (32m 45s):Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,1 (33m 12s):What the fuck is that?3 (33m 14s):Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.3 (33m 55s):And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I1 (33m 60s):Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so3 (34m 4s):Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're1 (34m 20s):Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.3 (34m 23s):Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,1 (34m 39s):I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so3 (34m 51s):Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge1 (35m 18s):Theater. Fyi. Right,3 (35m 20s):Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.3 (36m 3s):Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,1 (36m 21s):Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things3 (36m 50s):Gut, Yeah. Never1 (36m 51s):Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change3 (37m 2s):Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,2 (37m 16s):Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you3 (37m 44s):Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.1 (38m 12s):Super white. Super white. Yeah.3 (38m 14s):So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and1 (38m 37s):Talented,3 (38m 38s):You couldn't,1 (38m 39s):You3 (38m 39s):Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,1 (39m 12s):Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.1 (39m 58s):I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?3 (40m 23s):It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,1 (40m 32s):Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?3 (40m 54s):So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.3 (41m 34s):I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.3 (42m 18s):I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.1 (42m 24s):They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,3 (42m 29s):Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.1 (42m 42s):Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent3 (42m 45s):Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,1 (42m 53s):Rodney,3 (42m 55s):Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?1 (42m 57s):I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,3 (42m 59s):Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.1 (43m 2s):Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?3 (43m 8s):I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.1 (43m 11s):Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.3 (43m 17s):Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.1 (43m 25s):Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.3 (43m 35s):I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,1 (43m 47s):We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.3 (43m 52s):And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So1 (43m 55s):You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (43m 57s):Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at1 (44m 12s):Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,3 (44m 15s):I'm sorry, what was that?1 (44m 16s):R i p, Victory Gardens.3 (44m 17s):Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,1 (44m 30s):Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,3 (44m 38s):It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.3 (45m 19s):I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went1 (45m 32s):To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,2 (46m 9s):Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.3 (46m 29s):Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That2 (46m 53s):Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.3 (47m 8s):Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.1 (47m 18s):The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.3 (47m 36s):Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.1 (48m 25s):Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,3 (48m 35s):That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,1 (48m 46s):I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it3 (48m 50s):Was because they're in.1 (48m 51s):Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And3 (49m 3s):This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,1 (49m 7s):Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.3 (49m 11s):No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.3 (49m 53s):But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I1 (50m 11s):Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and3 (50m 20s):Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that1 (50m 43s):Of an2 (50m 45s):Yeah know?3 (50m 46s):I mean,2 (50m 47s):So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing3 (50m 55s):Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.2 (51m 19s):Yeah.1 (51m 20s):We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,2 (51m 23s):Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.3 (51m 26s):He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.2 (51m 30s):That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?2 (52m 14s):Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?3 (52m 18s):Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?3 (53m 2s):We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.3 (53m 43s):You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.3 (54m 23s):And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.2 (54m 31s):Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?3 (55m 3s):I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.3 (55m 43s):And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from1 (56m 25s):The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.1 (57m 6s):And I'm3 (57m 7s):Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.2 (57m 12s):Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of1 (57m 16s):Our, you3 (57m 17s):Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,1 (57m 38s):Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,3 (57m 42s):You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.1 (58m 14s):We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.1 (58m 57s):So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.3 (59m 1s):Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.3 (59m 45s):Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.1 (1h 0m 6s):How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For3 (1h 0m 10s):Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it1 (1h 0m 18s):Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you3 (1h 0m 23s):Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.1 (1h 0m 25s):Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super3 (1h 0m 36s):Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.3 (1h 1m 17s):It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to l
Do you ever feel like your hormones are out of control? You're not alone. In fact, many women in their 40s and 50s struggle with hormonal imbalances. But what if I told you that there's a way to help balance your hormones naturally? Spinal fitness has a lot to do with hormone balance. When your spine is out of alignment, it can put pressure on your nerves and cause hormonal imbalances. But when your spine is in alignment, it helps your nervous system function properly, which can help balance your hormones. Joining us in this episode of The Hormone Prescription Podcast is Eileen Durfee, an inventor, businesswoman, and practitioner of spinal fitness. She has developed a unique system of exercises that helps people achieve proper alignment and balance in their bodies. Eileen is here to share with us how spinal fitness can help balance our hormones. Her journey to overcome her health issues led her to become an inventor and businesswoman, with six (6) utility patents and three (3) design patents, and more in process. She founded her own health company, Creatrix Solutions LLC, to create and distribute natural healing products worldwide. She offers various health solutions through online web stores, including spinal fitness equipment, near-infrared saunas, air purifiers, ozone generators, and healing food salts. In this episode, Eileen shares: The connection between your spine and your hormones How spinal fitness can help balance your hormones What you can do to improve your spinal fitness And much more! If you're struggling with hormonal imbalances, this episode is for you. Tune in now to learn how spinal fitness can help you balance your hormones naturally. (00:00): Joseph Murphy said, “Whatever you give attention to will grow, magnify and multiply in your experience.” And my guest today, Eileen Durfee, says that this was key in her recovery from her myriad health conditions. And I'm gonna tell you about that evolution and what's important for you to know regarding your hormones and spinal fitness. Stay tuned. (00:23): So the big question is, how do women over 40 like us keep weight off, have great energy, balance our hormones and our moods, feel sexy and confident, and master midlife? If you're like most of us, you are not getting the answers you need and remain confused and pretty hopeless to ever feel like yourself Again. As an ob-gyn, I had to discover for myself the truth about what creates a rock solid metabolism, lasting weight loss, and supercharged energy after 40, to lose a hundred pounds and fix my fatigue. Now I'm on a mission. This podcast is designed to share the natural tools you need for impactful results and to give you clarity on the answers to your midlife metabolism challenges. Join me for tangible, natural strategies to crush the hormone imbalances you are facing and help you get unstuck from the sidelines of life. My name is Dr. Kyrin Dunston. Welcome to the Hormone Prescription Podcast. (01:17): Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Hormone Prescription. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am really grateful to have my guest today and excited to just share her with you because this is very impactful information that you're not gonna hear about in a lot of places. But it's super important. And if you miss this step, you'll probably never get your hormones quite right, so you don't wanna miss it. But it's kind of one of these little known hormone facts that you need to know, like what does your spinal fitness have to do with your hormones? If you listened to me long enough, you know that I've talked about this before, but not all the time, and you almost never hear anyone else talk about spinal integrity and hormones. So we're going to get into that. I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Eileen and then we'll get started. (02:10): She has a very extensive resume, so I'm gonna give you the highlights. But she's basically an inventor and practitioner. She has a engineering background in her brain is built, really built differently from a lot of peoples in that she's always thinking mechanics, how things work and how to improve things. So when she had her married health problems, which she will share with you in the episode, this engineering background really served her in coming up with solutions and particularly solutions around what is called spinal fitness. Not sure what that is. Stay tuned cause we're gonna tell you. And she even has some tips on figuring out your spinal fitness and if it's not great ways to help you improve it. So without further ado, welcome. I lead to the podcast. (03:03): Well, thank you for having me. (03:05): I'm excited for you to talk about your journey. A lot of the women listening are really struggling with their health. They're struggling to find answers and that's a part of your story. And it was through your struggle with your health problems that you overcame them and you really have developed a lot of programs and products to help other people. So I think it's very instructive. If you could share a little bit about your story briefly so that people know everything you've had to overcome and kind of some of the things we're gonna talk about today. (03:42): Oh, I, I've been in pain my whole life from the time I was born to growing nine inches in three months in height and being ran over by a car. Then after I got a silver filling, becoming allergic to everything, having problems with candida, my hormones, Hashimotos, just hair falling out, psoriasis not being able to sleep. Just a ton of issues. And I just had this underlying feeling that, you know, my body wasn't made to have just necessarily medications that I tried diets and detoxification protocols and all these things and I started putting the pieces to the puzzle together so that my body could, you know, function, you know, without having so much medications and to, you know, have a more energetic life. Cuz really everything is about energy. We wanna be able to sleep well, wake up, have energy to li you know, live our life. (04:48): And before it's like I didn't have any of that. And so I've tried a lot of gizmos. I mean a lot of the listeners probably have a lot of stuff that they bought that's just on the shelf in the garage. They're not using, you know, cuz it's like you have to develop this lifestyle and have things that are easy to use that you can feel a difference cuz there's no silver bullet to health. So I really looked at environmental toxins. You know, what you're breathing, what you're drinking, what you're putting on your skin. And then even if we lived in a bubble so to speak, we'd still have toxins, especially with a lot of genetic mutations that we have that we're not able to eliminate these things. So I developed gizmos to like help us do that. But a overlooked aspect really is how much energy does your body waste in holding your body? Erecting gravity, how many people have back pain, how many people have tight muscles? If we can just kind of improve that and open up our nerves to all of our organs, everything's gonna work better. And so I look at a whole body approach. (05:57): Okay, thank you for sharing that. And you know, you've been through so much with your health, you listed so many problems. I think there are a lot of women listening who can identify with that. And Eileen shared her age with me before we started. She doesn't look her age at all and you could see her on the video. So she's doing something right. You mentioned something. So the, the podcast is the hormone prescription and I try to try and tie everything into hormones. We are going to be focusing on a spinal fitness and structure, but we're gonna tie in a lot of other health concerns into this episode. So you definitely wanna stay tuned. But I wanna start off by sharing something that you're probably not gonna hear in a lot of places. And this was taught to me when I worked in Atlanta by a very astute, intelligent chiropractor. (06:51): As functional doctors, we go the next step as a mainstream doctor, when I, I just had a small toolbox of pill for every ill surgery, for every symptom. But then when I became fellowship trained in anti-aging, metabolic and functional medicine, I got a bigger toolbox and I started looking at the physiologic, biochemical and hormonal function of the body. And we worked with the body systems, but I didn't realize there was something else missing. And that was structural integrity. So Eileen mentioned as she was sharing her story about this kind of alignment that needs to happen to open up your nerve plexes, it also helped your blood vessels to flow more freely the blood through your body. And that means you're hormones, which is part of your nervous system if you've been listening to the podcast long enough, you know, that's the fact. And so it was this concept of when you are not aligning your musculoskeletal system properly, it puts these very small kinks in your nerves, your blood vessels, your subtle energy bodies, and it stops everything from working properly, including your hormones. (08:02): So I wanna start the whole discussion from that perspective. I want everyone to get that how important this is. It's not, oh I slept funny and my neck's outta balance and I just need to go to the chiropractor to get it popped back because I don't want my neck to hurt. It's the fact that your body, and most of us, he showed me my posture was he imitated me and I have this hilarious picture of him kind of twisting and he is like, so all your nerves and vessels are twisted that way. So it's about your hormones functioning that crick in your neck, the fact that your feet are half a centimeter off, right? You have hip misalignment, which most of us have. Your hormones aren't functioning properly because of that. So I know I've said a lot, but I really wanna draw everybody's attention to the importance of this. So how did you zero in on spinal fitness through this huge health journey that you had? Eileen, let's talk about how you zeroed in on that and really how did that become a big part of your (09:05): Recovery? Well, after being ran over by a car, I mean I'd been to neurologist, everything else they said I'd never be able to lift my hands. My arms up, shoulders up. It was like daggers being, you know, stabbed into my chest every time I took a breath. And I went to a chiropractor who did a lot of adjustments. But he taught exercises and not just exercises to strengthen certain muscles, but exercises that would get you an S-shaped spine. Now that's what's not known is the benefits of an S-shaped spine and why you want it, how to get it. Mm-Hmm. . So with an S-shaped spine, you know your head is more balanced over your pelvis and the bones aren't so stacked on top of each other. Before you're 18, your body is busy increasing the size and developing the spinal disc tissue specifically. And then it'll stop increasing and growing those after you're 18. (10:18): So you no longer have this pumping action to get nutrients in your disc or the waste products out. But if you do have that S shaped spine, it acts like a shock absorber where there's a pumping action where it pumps nutrients in, takes waste products out, keeps the spinal discs hydrated. So whenever you lose or don't have the S-shaped spine, then it's more compression and you go into disc degeneration and then you have tight muscles because people are really into stretching, which is great. Mm-Hmm. , however tight muscles exist because of gravity. You can't change the muscle attachments to bones. Okay. So when you have tight muscles, you really have to start thinking, do I have that S shape, spinal curvature, for instance, if all the listeners were to stand up and then fill their hamstrings, how many of them would have tight hamstrings? Almost every single person, (11:21): I wanna just interrupt you for a second cause a lot of people know what you're talking about, S shape, other people don't. So can you explain to them what should they be looking for to to know if they have an S shaped spine? What is that curvature? (11:35): Okay, the curvature, when we're born, we're a C shape. And when grandpa's old, he's like a C shape, you know, holding onto a cane, right? So in between, you know, we're born with that C shape and what our body does is it develops these lordotic curves where we get a low back curve and a neck curve. Okay. So our spine is in an S shape or should be. Okay. And so the benefits to that are is in gravity. Like your hamstrings for instance, are only designed for running, jumping or like if you're gonna launch an object, they're involved in the thrust. Mm-Hmm . But otherwise the hamstrings should have no effort on 'em, period. None. And the reason why they're tight is your short pastoral muscles, they're not very strong, they can't exert that tension that you need for very long. So the hamstrings begin to help those short postal muscles. (12:38): So then like if you're gonna have a stride link, say you're a runner, if the hamstrings are tight because you don't have that a shape in your, you know, leaning forward. So you have all this extra pounds coming down as compression on your neck, you know, and all these things then that fast twitch muscle recruitment of the hamstrings are dedicated to keep you from falling flat, you know, because of gravity. And it will take it away. It won't let you have it for, you know, athletic performance. Mm-Hmm. or whatever. So you can tell right away if you have the s shape curve by, if you have high tight hamstrings, you don't have it. You know, how far can you bend over when you hinge at your hips? You know, if you can't put your palms flat on the floor, you don't have an S-shaped curve then mm-hmm. (13:27): , if you jump up and you land forward or backward instead of in the same spot, when you try to jump as high as you can, that's indicative of poor posture. Mm-Hmm. , if you raise your hands straight up and they're not along your ears, most people they're pointing, you know, maybe even 15 degrees forward, 20, 30 degrees. That's indication of, you know, the neck not having the right curvature. So it's limiting, you know, your shoulders from moving your arms up rotating your head, looking with your eyes and turning a lot of people with really bad neck posture won't lead with the eyes, they'll lead with their chin. And then even sitting down, just taking a deep breath in and putting your, you know, hands claps behind your head, you know? Mm-Hmm. . So is your low back curve, does it have a low back curve in it or is it more flat? (14:25): Those are, that's like the evaluation. And I have a free PDF guide that you can download on how to perform this evaluation and what it tells you about the posture. And that is okay, how Dr. Sugar helped the New England Patriots pick players for years, they didn't spend much money on players cuz they were using his techniques to evaluate, you know, athletic ability because it's like a car with a bent crank shaft, you know, your motor's gonna seize, it's gonna, you know, and your spine is a mechanical device like a, a crank shaft in a motor. And so if it's out of tolerance, you're gonna be grinding up bone edges, deteriorating discs and you're not gonna have athletic ability. And so it's really kind of easy to tell if you have enough shaped spine or not and you'll feel it with tight muscles and limited mobility or maybe even pain. (15:21): But I mean, I've been traveling a lot and I will sit in an airport when I'm waiting watching how many s shaped spines can identify. I mean, I was there for hours and I saw two people with an S-shaped spine. It is epidemic, it's a hundred billion a year problem for low back pain alone in America. So just think of all the energy you're spending fighting gravity. And we have a system where you can get the S-shaped curve, you know, before now, I mean even physical therapists, they didn't know how to give it to people or to train for people to have it mm-hmm. , but they're, and so why are we losing our S shape? Most people never get it. And that's, especially with the electronic devices, cuz we're forward head posture a lot. We're, you know, we're looking down. So it's the repetitive motions that we're, you know, sustaining without, It's kind of like eating candy before bed and not flushing, flossing and brushing your teeth. (16:25): You know, you, you've gotta do stuff to reverse the effects of gravity. Besides the fact that there are exercises that are being taught to increase muscle that actually reduce the curves. They're detrimental. We're teaching the children wrong, we're not helping them develop an S shaped spine. So all this like what exercises? Like a regular, a regular sit up, for instance, you know, you, you bend and so you're creating posterior shear because the, there's these bones upper and lower on each vertebrae that have facet bones mm-hmm. . And when those separate then you know, the, the vertebrae can twist or whatever. But it's not encouraging a low back curve when you're doing a regular sit up. So what we, what Dr. Sugar did is he created like a fulcrum. You think of a teeter-totter, if it's balanced with the fulcrum in the middle, it's really pretty easy. (17:29): But like if you wanna move a boulder for instance, you have a long bar, but you put the fulcrum really close down there so you can use a hundred pounds to move 500. All right. So what we do with these exercises, we put the fulcrum underneath the body, so we eliminate posture, your shear, and then we put a load on the body. So it's like where the fulcrum is not in the center. So when you put the weight on top of the body, it's creating where you have to have 500 pounds to move 100. So you're putting absolute tension on these certain muscles that with that curve, that fcr underneath you, it induces the curvature. So there's a sit up exercise, there's a, that works external obliques and that because of the groove in the cushion helps to pick segmental posture. So if somebody has a slight scoliosis or vertebrae sublux out to the left or the right, it's like a train on a train track, it lets a spin float catches the transverse process and it'll actually adjust your back as you arch over it. (18:39): And then again, because of that absolute tension and that, you know, kind of like a half of a ball that you're, you're laying over, it's going to induce the low back curvature. Then we do a pelvic tilt, which he initially started having us do a standing pelvic tilt. You know where that is really good for the hips. You talked about people having legs unequal cuz you know, they'll have, you know, half their trip hip rotated forward like you know, our gas pedals on the right and if we're right handed, most right-hand people, their hip is twisted forward. Yeah. And that, and then that shortens that leg. And so what we can do to strengthen the hips is doing a pelvic tilt. But he had it where you lay over this cushion where you can put your L five, L four, L three in this groove and then you get your upper body taught where your recs muscles tight, you're putting absolute tension on that recs. (19:39): Then you put weight on top of the body on your iliac hips. And when you do that pelvic tilt because of the direction of muscle pull and the leverage you've created it actually shes the L five vertebrae back on the L four. So if you have like a, her created disc like Luke Rockhold UFC fighter that, that Joe Rugged wanted to have, have spinal surgery, I went over there, taught him this exercise on the power cushion and within two weeks he got rid of his herniated disc without surgery. And so it's just using leverage physics, you know, compression and sheer forces in a good way. The problem without having a neck shaped spine is, you know, we talked about the facet bones. If you have bone on bone, there's no muscle to have to weaken. It's so strong, it's like a vice. And when you have that S-shaped curve, the sheer forces push bone on bone. (20:39): As soon as you don't have the S-shaped curve, gravity reverses. So then it puts the strain on your ligaments and your muscles and your inner spins muscles. And people sometimes don't think about it, but the disc in your spine is actually a ligament too. So they don't stretch like a rubber band. When you have enough, you know, you got all those tight muscles, you got that back pain, that means you're putting, you know, some undue stress and tearing on your spinal disc, which then can herniate and, and people are, you know, getting back surgeries, infusions all because they don't have the S-shaped curve because the doctors don't know how to give it to people. But this was proven Dr. Sugar did like a 15 year study with Jennifer Stone and Bob beaten from the US Olympic team and Ron O'Neill, who was the trainer at the New England Patriots for 26 years. (21:37): And then Smitty from York Barbell who was the Olympic heavy weightlifting coach. They all did this study. And for the first time since Leon Neuro DaVinci and Belli in 1680, they only did partial spinal biomechanics. But they did every single vertebrae in the spine in position calculating the mechanical advantage of the S shaped spine versus, you know, forward head posture, loss of curb or the straight military spine and determined all the compression forces and sheer forces at every vertebrae. And it was proven that there's a 15 to one mechanical advantage to have an S-shaped spine. And it they every much Huh? For (22:29): Everyone. For everyone. Not just athletes, (22:31): Right? Yeah. Every, everyone. And then they found out that with these four exercises that you do and you start with only five 10 reps, it, it's nothing like a huge dedicated program. They found out there's lung as your spine wasn't naturally or surgically fused, you could get the S-shaped curve in 12 weeks doing these exercises three to five times a week. Awesome. And I just came back from Las Vegas at the physical therapy in orthopedic conference and I had the equipment there, and I asked people to do 10 reps of four exercises, but I would have them bend over first and turn their head, you know, do the evaluation. The worst improvement I got of everyone that was there was two inches of reach bending over and one inch turning their head either way. The best I got was nine inches. Bending over their hamstrings were so tight, but in 10 reps of four exercises they got nine inches of reach and three inches in turning their head. (23:39): Either way I had one gal, cuz these are people that are inflection, they're bent over working on people that are injured doing physical therapy exercises using their arms. This one gal did all the exercises. Day one, she came back at the end of day two and said, I always have pain under my scapula. I always have pain when I'm lifting my arms and I always have low tight back muscles. She said, I wanna tell you, I sat in classes for two days, had no tight, low back, had no pain in my scapula and I could raise my arms without pain. And that was at the end of day two, these exercises. That's the thing is is I'm 60 years old and I know the women that are listening, life keeps life and we've got a lot of stuff and commitments that we have to do and it's hard for us to make a routine to change our life, you know, And it really helps when we can do something once and have such a significant improvement that it sells itself. (24:44): It's like, man, I really feel a lot better when I do these things. You know? And that's what's fantastic about spinal fitness is, is that you can beat gravity, you can get rid of that pain, those tight muscles. But best of all is again, like you mentioned earlier, is like when your nerves are pinched, you know, from our brain, all of the signals to our organs go through that. And you know everyone when when you got tight muscles and pain, you've got pinched nerves. So it's not getting, its optimal communication to form its function. And so you really do have to think that the structure is one of the most important things because it's also very an anti-aging. See a lot of people will do all kinds of stuff for anti-aging and there's just a lot of technology out there and I use a lot about myself. (25:47): It's fantastic. But if you don't get the S shaped spine, you know, and your muscles are fatigued and everything else, your body's so smart, it's gonna help you. It's gonna start adding calcification on the front of these vertebraes to help it stand you, you know, to help you with gravity. Mm-Hmm . Cause your muscles don't have to be tight. So then you're gonna get stiff and old and you're gonna start developing that C shape curve and you're gonna have permanent reduced nerve capacity, you know, to your organs and you're just gonna age, you are gonna premature the age unless you get that shaped spine. (26:28): Wow. So I hope everybody is hearing this. So maybe you're someone who's the majority of women that 40 to 60 and older have had episodes of back pain, if not chronic back pain. And so maybe that's you or maybe you don't have back pain and you wanna make sure that you don't get it or have any disc problems in the future. So at the end Eileen does have a download, like she said, where you can kind of do these tests for your s curvature and also some exercises. But one of the things I really notice in reading your bio and talking to you just before the podcast and also during the podcast, you have been through so much and you have this incredible engineering technical mind that has helped you to think about these health challenges that you've encountered in a really unique and technical kind of solution focused strategy way. (27:26): And you shared some quotes with me that you love, I I wanna share this one by Joseph Murphy. And then I want to ask if you could talk a little bit about how you've had the mental toughness to go through the things you've been through and not only survive through them, but thrive and become so passionate that you've created innovative tools for other people. And the quote from Joseph Murphy, Mur Murphy who I love, is whatever you give attention to will grow, magnify and multiply in your experience. So could you talk a little bit about what that means to you and how this has served you and what other mindset tools you use to thrive through everything you've been through? (28:09): You know, I've naturally been one of those people that no matter what's wrong or what challenges that are before me is a glass that's always half full and, and that there's always a solution. I, I don't know, I think it's, you know, because of my family environment, maybe how my father was so into perfectionism and you know, I sought his approval where my sister went the opposite direction. But I've just always had this drive that, you know, the answers never know there's always a solution. And then over the years I've, you know, done a lot of reading because it's like I, every single day I, I don't know, I have this hunger to learn, you know, and nothing ever stays the same and you just can't keep on doing the same thing over and over. So I'm always reading, always learning. And when I came across Dr. (29:08): Joseph Murphy, I realized that the reason why I was able to get out of that bad situation and then to create solutions is because of my focus and the hope that I had. You know, which naturally came to me. But now I utilize that, those tools even more. Mm-Hmm , there's a lot of, you know, things that, you know, thought life is huge. And for women, I didn't have any brothers so I was more of a tomboy with my dad. I mean, I ran machines, drove the backhoe. You don't know how to frame. And you know, just, I like all guy stuff, you know, I, I I'm real mechanical and you know, a lot of women, you know, they have these challenges and I just realized that what you think about in your thoughts, you know, a lot of women, it's like there was this funny movie with Mel Gibson in where he could hear the thoughts of women and they were just all racing, Did I leave the coffee pump? (30:16): Did I do this? Did I do that? You know? And so it's like when you really realize it, like my own daughter, she has all the this thought life and you know, and I just realized that, that I didn't have a lot of that. My thought life is about visualizing mechanically maybe how to build something to solve a solution. And it's like I do a lot of work in my mind that way instead of thinking about the worst thing or the fear or this or that. But I know that women in general, I'm more left brained, you know, they're more right brained and so they might really think a lot about things. And so I've really tried to, you know, help people realize, you know, just observe your thoughts. I think a really good tip would be to just kind of like observe your thoughts for a while. (31:08): What are you, what are you really thinking about? What are you spending your time thinking about? And then maybe take steps to change or replace some of those thoughts. I mean, you know, you can get audiobooks of Joseph Murphy that you know that he's really fantastic. There's a lot of other people out there too. But our thought life can really even impact our hormones, our mood and emotions. Cuz everything is energy. So if we can transform our thought life, we're gonna transform our body, we're gonna transform our hormones, we're gonna transform so many things. And I think that was my strong point kind of naturally being wired towards that way of thinking. Mm-Hmm . But then I just didn't want that to be accidental. I wanted to like improve. So, you know, I'm constantly learning. So I think that's a really good thing is to, you know, be curious and know that nothing here stays the same and that little tiny hinges move giant doors. So sometimes the simplest little tiny things that we change can like dramatically improve our life. (32:23): I love that quote. Little tiny hinges move giant doors. That's so true. You know, sometimes it can be so simple and you've offered so much important information for everybody here today, Eileen. I really appreciate it. It, I really, this is a pet peeve of mine because I think even a lot of us functional docs don't stress the importance of structural integrity of the mu low skeletal system. And we really do a disservice to people when we don't. So I appreciate you coming and sharing light on this. You've got a great gift. We'll have the link in the show notes, so if you're driving, don't try to write it down. We'll have it in the show notes and tell everybody what they'll get there. There are a few different downloads for free that they're gonna get, right? (33:11): Yes. There's I think five or six documents and these were rewritten based on Dr. Sugar's work and it goes into exercises to avoid that can actually put strain and stress on your back and reduce your curves. And then ones that we encourage or how to do a modified instead of a standing curl with weight, sit down and do a preacher's curl with weight. So you take the stress off the low back, just tips like that. So there's document just about the exercises that to avoid and what we recommend. Then there's one on just how to do the Netflix flexion cuz you know, we're forward head posture where we're sitting at our desks. So there's just a simple exercise that you can do even with your fingertips or with the neck shaper device to help bring your head back, reverse the gravitational effects. And so there's a collection document, then there's a sit up document. (34:19): Even without a power cushion you can actually take a sleeping bag with duct tape and create yourself that fulcrum to exercise over. Mm-Hmm. . And it talks about the reasons why you don't wanna do a regular sit up and how to do the sit up correctly and what muscles it strengthens. Those kinds of things. The same way with a, a pelvic tilt, you know, it explains all of that. And then a really important thing, one of the first things Dr. Sugar had me do after I was ran over by the car was take ordinary bath towels and roll them a special way and then do a back twist. Cuz you know, I talked about your body's not giving the nourishment to the discs anymore cause you're supposed to have that shaped spine. So your, your discs are like a dried out kitchen sponge. So we can do this twist to cause 'em to go to a gel state. (35:18): Then we can lay over these rolls. So we take gravity out of the picture cuz gravity is why you have tight muscles. So as your muscles loosen, it encourages increasing proper curvature. And we have special roll now that act like a brace where you're laying there, you actually hear your bone snap just laying the relaxing because when the muscles let go mm-hmm. , it's like a groove on it. And so that it teaches you how to do that. So all these free guides, you don't have to buy anything. You can, I show you how to makeshift what you got at home to do these things, to start getting back pain relief. (35:57): Awesome. Thank you so much for those wonderful gifts, Eileen, Thank you for your journey and all that you've created to help people and for this incredible information. Thanks so much for joining us today. (36:09): Well thank you for having me (36:11): And thank you all for joining us for another episode of The Hormone Prescription with Dr. Kirin. I hope that you'll put into action something that you've learned here today. Frankly, I think each and every one of you needs to download the guides and see if you have the s curvature in your spine. And if you don't, you need to get about the business of working to get the S curvature back if you had it before, or to get it for the first time. Because not only will that help to eliminate back pain potentially, but you're going to help your entire biochemistry and physiology to function better, including your hormones. So if nothing else, I hope that you take action. Thanks so much for joining me. I'll see you again next week. Until then, peace, love, and hormones y'all. (37:02): Thank you so much for listening. I know that incredible vitality occurs for women over 40 when we learn to speak hormones and balance these vital regulators to create the health and the life that we deserve. If you're enjoying this podcast, I'd love it if you give me a review and subscribe. It really does help this podcast out so much. You can visit the hormone prescription.com where we have some free gifts for you, and you can sign up to have a hormone evaluation with me on the podcast to gain clarity into your personal situation. Until next time, remember, take small steps each day to balance your hormones and watch the wonderful changes in your health that begin to unfold for you. Talk to you soon. ► FREE Exercise PDF guides by Eileen Durfee Are You Ready to Improve, Restore, and Maintain an Ideal S-Shape Spinal Posture? Instead of training and exercising in a way that accentuates or creates an "incorrect" neutral spine, use our FREE PDF guides (see below) to learn the exercises for improving, restoring, and maintaining an ideal S-shaped spinal posture! CLICK HERE to download. ► Feeling tired? Can't seem to lose weight, no matter how hard you try? It might be time to check your hormones. Most people don't even know that their hormones could be the culprit behind their problems. But at Her Hormone Club, we specialize in hormone testing and treatment. We can help you figure out what's going on with your hormones and get you back on track. We offer advanced hormone testing and treatment from Board Certified Practitioners, so you can feel confident that you're getting the best possible care. Plus, our convenient online consultation process makes it easy to get started. Try Her Hormone Club for 30 days and see how it can help you feel better than before. CLICK HERE to sign up.
Today on The Anthony Gargano Show, Anthony opens the show talking about his excitement as Joel Embiid made Sixers history with his 59 points in last night's game and the Eagles Commanders game tonight (00:00-43:00). Today on the vault we take a look at the best individual performances. The Cuz opens up the phones to talk to the city (43:00-1:28:03). Joe Buck joins the show to breakdown his thoughts regarding tonight's matchup between the Eagles and Commanders. The Cuz wraps up the show talking to the city and getting them hype for the Eagles game (1:28:03-END).
Welcome to Freedom Friday w/guest Dr. Steve Turley, join us as we discuss the attempted cancel culture attack on Steve's new Documentary "The Rise of the American Patriot. How a Remnant church stepped up and saved the premier and why its important to stand with others in times of censorship.https://www.turleytalks.com/https://www.facebook.com/turleytalks/https://twitter.com/DrTurleyTalkshttps://www.instagram.com/turleytalks/https://rumble.com/c/DrSteveTurleyhttps://insidersclub.turleytalks.com/welcome Welcome to freedom Fridays. This is Dr. Steve Turley. And he is a well, you're an author, you're a movie maker, you have a podcast, you've got a YouTube channel, if you've if you've been on YouTube, I mean, which I haven't you see this guy, and I love. I love your demeanor, your care, your kind of your, your style of commentary, because it's very, it's funny, it's light hearted, you know, because we're looking at some dark subjects. And you bring such a good, just uplifting and entertaining way of looking at some of these things. So I appreciate you coming on the program. Steve 6:17 Oh, thanks, Gary. It's it's, it's my honor, we were just talking earlier, you know, you are in a bluer area and a very, very red state. So I'm in a very, very blue state. And so I guess on the little red dot and that blue state. So we have, we see we see comparable challenges in our own backyards. And I think we can encourage each other a lot through it. Gary Duncan 6:41 Yeah, thank you. Let's talk about your new document that you just came out on the 15th, I believe. And I'll read a little bit about some pushback you got as soon as it came out before it came out. Your your documentary is called the return of the American patriot. Because you're the page you're the professor, patriot, right? Patriot, Professor, Steve 7:00 Patriot professor, that's Gary Duncan 7:02 you, I was thinking, if I had you as a professor, when I was in college, I probably would have stayed awake during history class. Because I mean, your the way you bring about the news and and things that are happening in our culture and in the church and things like that, is it just keeps you it keeps you focused, but entertained enough to to not walk away really ticked off. You know what I'm saying? And you bring a great perspective to it. So talk a little bit about the documentary you've got out, and you're kind of some of the things you've run against, you know, producing Oh, Steve 7:41 yeah, well, so this movie really tries to present that our 20 minute documentary, that kind of hopeful optimism that Ronald Reagan gave to us any great movement is going to have to be optimistic at its very core also ends up eating itself and dies or just look at woke leftism, and just the resentment that killing their movement. Yeah, this returning the American patriot is actually a it's a, it's a documentary on the rise of the Pennsylvania Magga movement. It really is the story of how ordinary Americans who never before involved in politics rose up in mass and mobilized to successfully take on unconstitutional COVID mandates, election integrity issues, woke school boards all across their state. It's a very inspirational story of the people effectively pushing back against the permanent political class. And you would think that anyone who openly supported democracy would be interested in a film like this, you know, it's as democratic as it gets. But little did we know that the very drama we captured on film would actually play itself out in real time for the premiere we had. We had scheduled a live premiere on July 16th, at a local IMAX theater in Lancaster, Pennsylvania called Penn cinemas and they had a 400 seat capacity. We opened up the tickets and we sold out literally in hours. We sold out in 24 hours, those 400 tickets. And then we learned just days before the premiere that a group of woke activists called Stand Up Lancaster cry bullied the movie theater to cancel our premiere. Remember, these are people who actually believe you can work try to wrap your mind around this. These are people actually believe that censorship is a form of free speech. They literally believe that right? They defend big tech and all sorts of censoring us because they say that's their right to their own freedom of speech. That's their Gary Duncan 9:58 free speech. Ah, that's their nobody else's. Steve 10:02 Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Well, sad. Right? Exactly. Again, it's a square circle. It's just, it's beyond absurd. They cry bullied this movie theater to canceled premiere and unfortunately the owner of the theater was a coward and he caved and canceled our contract just days before the scheduled viewing. So there we were without a venue for tickets sold. No venue. So we went to another venue. And it was the Wyndham hotel in Lancaster. And they gave us a contract to rent out their theater venue there. They had hosted the republican party a few months prior to that the state Republican Party, so we thought we were pretty safe with them. And they there was they had an 800 seat capacity. So we doubled our ticket sales again. So it was really like, Oh, this is great. This is awesome. And then the same thing happened. They were they were they weren't just cried bullied, I was told there was even threats of mob violence if they didn't shut us down. And and so there we were two venues canceled. We were being mocked and ridiculed by the local Lancaster paper, which is a total left wing rag. It's the most Whoa, it's called LNP. It is pathetic, their board of editors actually came out and defended these practices. So again, now we have a medium major media outlet local media outlet defending censorship. It's absolutely astonishing. And keep in mind, Gary, keep in mind for a movie no one had ever even seen. This, this was this was the most dangerous movie, no one saw. I mean, literally no one. I hadn't even sat through the whole thing by this time, right? They were getting my staff was gonna surprise me with the whole edited version. So there we were no venue. And that is and this is why I'm so honored to talk with you. That is when the pastors of Christ Community Church and Camphill godly men stepped in, they have a 1200 seat auditorium, replete with a full movie theater quality sound system, massive movie theater size screen, and they offered it to us and their 1200 seat auditorium. We ended up selling all 1200 tickets. Okay, so we went from 400 to 1200. Talk about three fold increase, right? Yeah, God Gary Duncan 12:28 had better plans for you than you thought it and Steve 12:31 that there's no way we could have planned this. We would never have planned our brains don't think that way. Let's plan for a 1200 seat, you know, Premier with Doug Mastriano there and all that sort of stuff, kind of stuff who's running for governor there? They offered to us and the moment these leftists heard about that, they started threatening the church. Okay. Again, this tells you who these people really are. They started threatening the church they were going to contact the IRS which they did. Again, there was an the same media outlets did the exact same thing. You know, violating separation between church and state bringing Doug Mastriani was campaigning for Governor there in person and blah, blah, blah, violating the Johnson Amendment all this nonsense. And and so when it ended up having all of this you know, proverbial dung hitting the fan. Even the lawyer of the church told the pastors you need to drop this, right, because lawyers are risk averse. That's what do you need to drop this? We're getting, we don't want the IRS breathing down our neck and so forth. Those two pastors stood firm. They told their lawyer take a hike. We're standing for liberty and truth. And, and, and they hosted us. We came in 1200 People Doug mastriano, huge premiere, it was absolutely amazing. Electric standing ovation at the end. And in the end, Gary, in the end, seven protesters showed up they weren't even allowed on to the vicinity. They had to hang out on the street across from the church seven protesters with their little arts and crafts, you know, signs document separation between church and state. I think even one guy said I worship Satan something ridiculous right? And, and just to show you that God, God does have a very wonderful sense of humor for his children. Gary, it was raining. So they had to stand out there in the rain, with their masks on looking repulsively ridiculous as people who love faith, family and freedom were all gathered together in an astonishing fellowship. It was absolutely beautiful. You know, Doug master on game got up gave a very great It's just and, and beautiful talk. And it was an amazing testimony to what patriots can do when we all stick together. Gary Duncan 15:09 Wow, that's awesome. As you were talking about that I was getting this picture of this little, tiny weeny little mouse and this huge elephant. And, and it gives me encouragement because I've really focused a lot on where's the church, and I could see how the left and the small 1% or half a percent of a population controls the whole country and my church. And so we really that's encouraging to hear. And and it's who's the church again, is you need to you need to give that name out again, because the people that hosted you and those pastors because they really that's a there and a thing goes for that. Yeah, Steve 15:51 absolutely. Christ Community Church in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, Camp Hill, two words, Pennsylvania, Gary Duncan 15:58 they if you're looking for a church in that in that city, then this is the one to go to, because they that's what you that, to me, that's Ephesians six, you know, when you stand and they're willing to stand against all odds, and that's, that's awesome. Steve 16:13 And just just to drive this home, the pastor when he got up to give the prayer before the whole event, invited everyone of course, if you're looking for churches to come here, and by the way, next week, we're showing another movie 2000 mules. So these guys, are they these guys are the real deal. Gary Duncan 16:32 They are the remnant church. Steve 16:34 They are so bold, it's beautiful. Gary Duncan 16:38 That that is great. What would you so that was the one way churches and the community to you know, leadership in church could get involved? Get your get your documentary and have it hosted at their church? I mean, are you are you pursuing that at all or looking? Steve 17:00 Oh, yeah, no, we've had we had the documentary going around all over the place now at this point. So it just last Thursday. It went live live streaming. So now you can actually stream it live. If you go to the return of the American patriot.com You can get your own copy. And, and absolutely, I think we even have a situation. We have a protocol from where you can you can show it in a mass viewing. Okay. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Gary Duncan 17:31 And I'll put the links in the show notes and all that for a site and all that. What's tell us a little bit about some of the stories or the things that are in the movie are a couple of them just kind of thesis. Steve 17:43 Yeah, well so what it centers on so Pennsylvania is interesting because it is probably the single most Rhino infested state in the nation a lot of people don't know that so when we think of like you know, Republicans in name only write your Neo cons just just PETE Yeah their note well I prefer Diablo Democrat and all but label or you know if they're part of the unit party the Lindsey Graham's the Mitt Romney's the middle Lincoln project, right to Lincoln Lane candy project. Exactly. Liz Cheney. They're there. They're part of the permanent political class. It's radically secularized, radically globalist that hates our culture's customs traditions, hate family, faith, family and freedom. Those things get in the way of their their globalist projects and so forth Gary Duncan 18:34 are wolves in sheep's clothing. Steve 18:36 They really are because they because they campaign is patriots but then they Governor governor's permanent political class members. And when we tend to think of states like that, I mean up until recently, we tend to think of some a place like Arizona where you know, John McCain had such an inordinate effect effects and influence well that's gone now Carrie Lake and Blake masters and Mark Finch him have all crushed that it's now Maga country and Carrie Lake is going to win by the way she's definitely on track and I think like masters gonna have no mark Finch up to he's almost 10 over his opponent. So the these people he's going for Secretary of State so the, you know, you tend to think that these people these rhinos are in places like Arizona or even most recently, like Utah with Mitt Romney and their crazy Governor given his pronouns out and all this sort of nonsense. Okay, keep in mind these are Republicans, but but Pennsylvania is actually the worst Pennsylvania the Republican Party is no different, literally than the Democratic Party when Doug Mastriano one who's a dear Christian brother, amaze me. He's He's literally now the poster boy for Christian nationalism, as they call it today. The big boogeyman we could talk about that, which is a lot of fun, you know, but nevertheless, he, when he got the nomination was almost 50% of the vote with a Guys in that race for the Republican nomination, the top five Republicans in the Senate, his suppose it colleagues, he's a state senator, they all turned around and endorsed the Democrat Josh Shapiro. And keep in mind, Gary, Josh Shapiro is all for unfettered abortion. Right. He's all for, you know transgenderism is all for CRT in our, in our classrooms. I mean, this is full blown woke nonsense and Republicans are endorsing it. This movie is all about moms and dads and grandparents and people who've never been involved at Amish Pennsylvania dodge, all rising up together, mobilizing and organizing and taking back the Republican Party with Doug Mastriano has nomination being sort of the crown jewel of this project, taking back the Republican Party away from these rhinos, these Diablos and giving it back to the people so that the values of faith, family and freedom become the values of the party they want all they want. In the end. It's a process, the technical processes known as re territorialization. Yeah, it's a fancy schmancy word. But what it just simply means what we're seeing today, and this is what I think Christian nationalism actually is. It's if globalism, de territorial losses of globalism, dis embeds and dislodge his political life away from the local and to the trans local to this managerial class that oversees the entire political and economic complex, if globalism, D territory alized his political involvement, what the what the collapse of globalism is basically is a re territorial loss. And it's bringing politics back to the people back to the local back to the county and the community. And what you're seeing in Pennsylvania in particular, but you're seeing it all over Pennsylvania is a microcosm, what you're seeing is these communities, all organizing all across their counties to create a single party, that is once again, upholding the values, interests, concerns of those who love faith, family and freedom. That's all they want. They just want their leaders to represent their values rather than despise them. And that's the movie takes you through the journey of how they did that through the COVID mandate and sanity through the CRT and sanity and through the election. You know, shenanigans in 2020. Gary Duncan 22:43 With would this be sound like a great movie that I need to show in our Davidson County Republican Party group to see how it's done? Because, you know, as we talked earlier, I was I'm in a red state, you know, super majority of Republicans in the state. But in my county, which is the state capital of the Davidson County, which were the state capitalism. It's full blown blue, communist. I mean, those school board is full on communist liberal. I mean, they voted down the Nash, the Republican National Committee come into town for the convention. Yeah, we're, we're, we're going to be paying for people to go across our state employees to go across the state lines to get abortions. I mean, it's just bizarre. And, you know, how do how does a small well, not a small county, but the main county in the state had, how do we fight against this? I mean, were those small, local areas, were they blue? Or were they more red, and people just came together? I know, it's a groundswell of grassroots effort. Steve 23:54 It is so Pennsylvania's can be a little different, because Pennsylvania, so if anything, like we're talking about earlier that the the Republican Party is a bit complacent in Tennessee from from what I'm hearing, or to say, whereas whereas in Pennsylvania, that complacency, characterized the last three decades, and and now there's kind of a reawakening going on. And, yeah, it applying it to your particular locality would be interesting that that's going to involve, I think, some some, you know, creative inventiveness on your part. How do you awaken the population, your own locality, one thing that seems to be doing it and this there's a section in this movie that touches on it, one thing that seems to be doing it is wokeness wokeness is freaking out, even the left. That's something we've got some studies on that now. So we're finding that anything woke will actually tend to split the left. So think of people like Bill Maher, or peers Morgan or a Dave Rubin, either even even even a Jordan Peterson would have said he would have been considered center left. Five years ago, you would have considered himself center left five years ago. They, they they abhor wokeness every bit as much as any conservative wokeness is, is a pourraient to most people. And so the more we push culture wars, and this is what Mastriano is doing. It's what Glenn Younkin did. So well so ingeniously in, in Virginia, back in the 2021 election, where he's pushing CRT CRT soon, and he made Terry McAuliffe actually defend teachers, unions, school boards, and CRT and that split the last half of Macola Fs constituents went back, I don't want that. Whereas the other half were ravenously, eating it up like zombies, you know, eating up a body or something like that. So that's one side of it. But the other side of it is as it's splitting and laugh, woke issues, unite the right woke issue for and again, for lack of better terms left and right, right. But it unites the right unites the Republicans. In other words, if you ask Democrats, do you support this work issue? 50% Say yes. 50% say no, you ask Republicans to support this work is you 100% basically say, No. So Republicans are more likely to come out and vote against a woke issue than Democrats are to come out and vote for it. So pushing the culture wars, from the vantage point of the woke left exposing the woke left, that seems to have a very powerful animating capacity. Gary Duncan 26:48 So how going back to churches again, because that's my thing is Yeah, is because they've got the biggest voice, because they've got people in front of them. And what you just said there is pushing the culture because the church should be the one that changes culture, not the culture, change the church, of course, and we need those pastors and those leaders that will take that very thing and push that narrative of the culture in a biblical way that educates and motivates the people sitting in the pews. And, and I'm not seeing that I'm starting to see a lot around the country happen. And I'm seeing one or two or three maybe churches here in town that do that. But it's not, I don't see it as and that's why I like you, because you're very positive. I'm usually a positive guy. But after 2020, I just went downhill. Yeah, positiveness. Because it saw assault. 2020 is is the dividing point within the church of woke and realism. There because we're in a spiritual war, we're in our spiritual war that I don't think people really get. It's a biblical revelational. In times spiritual war, we've always been in war. But this one takes a different to me, this one takes on a different connotation, because what we're doing to the children, what we're allowing to be done to the children in the name of not offending other people, you know, with masks and all the stuff and then the wokeness in the schools. And I've been to several school board meetings, and I think I've yet to see a pastor stand up, and shame and, and, and preach to the school boards, right about what they're doing. I've seen regular people. And I think that it has to actually some a lot of the movement is coming from the people sitting in the pews that are sick and tired. Yes, what's going on? And there's nothing in the pulpit that says, This is how we deal with transgenderism. This is how we deal with because they don't want to get yelled at. They don't want to leave the church because we had a church split. Pastor left, but he's a very, I'm telling you, Steve burger. I mean, if you ever heard him, right, he's on fire about what we should be doing. Ryan. Steve 29:13 It is it is. It is a a very chilling testimony, that the person who has done more for Christianity and has just recently delivered, perhaps the single best message to the church is from a Canadian psychologist who doesn't even go to church. Gary Duncan 29:35 Jordan Peterson? Oh, yes. Okay. Okay. Right. Steve 29:38 Right. I mean, that's it. That's a testimony to either Well, I should say it's a judgment. I mean, that's, I mean, if you think about how, what he has been able to say, I mean, I don't know if you saw his message to Christian churches. I like to Well, yeah, it's very good. It's very good. I've got on my channel. I did a little commentary. on it, but it was absolutely brilliant. Woke I mean, he he made he didn't he didn't mince words, woke ism is a crippled religion. It is an it is a it is a pernicious violent ideology that wants to erase the church. And so the only way the church is going to push back against woke ism is by not being woke. But being the opposite. And and you cannot be more opposite woke than to speak into the hearts and minds of the men of your congregation. You've got to speak to the men. And you've got to let men all over the nation know that if they want to be men. And if they want a place where they're allowed to be men without being disparaged. The only place is the Christian church. That's when you see revival. When you see men come because you know the old saying if you if you when children and your evangelistic efforts if you win children, you win children, okay? If you if you if you win, wives, you know, you win wives, but if you win, husbands, you win the husbands, you win the wives and you win the children, there's a right there's, there's an order to which God created the world a creational order. And woke ism is just throwing it all into utter chaos, as did Satan and Genesis chapter three, the serpent, turn the world upside down, right? It's supposed to be God, man, woman animals, and we're just not in that, that kind of order. And Satan that the serpent turns around and makes it animal woman man and God's not even there. Right. So that's the great inversion that we've seen. So woke ism is very, it's just, it's just in line with that. So what we entered understand what's really going on big picture seems to me is that for the last 100 years or so that's those were when the seeds were being sold sown, but it really came to fore in the 1940s, as I understand it. Before 1940, the Supreme Court saw religion as a public good, as did all of our founding fathers. They all believed in what's called an accommodationist conception of religion. And the accommodations, conceptual religion is church and state work together in partnership for the betterment of human society, to create a republic of virtue of free men, because they knew the founding fathers knew that the only way we could be free, is if we were self governing, but the only way we could be self governing is if we had if we we tapped into a virtue tradition of some kind. And for them, of course, 98% of them that's going to be Christian and formed fruits of the Spirit, you name it, right Sermon on the Mountain, like 10 commandments, but the only way you can really tap into a faith tradition genuinely, is if you're free. Right? So and the only way you're ultimately free, is if you're if you're cultivating some kind of virtue, but the only way you're cultivating virtue is by tapping into some kind of faith. And the only way you're tapping to real true faith is through freedom which grows virtue which God has faith with God is free. That's called the Golden Triangle of freedom. And so they understood the church is indispensable to a free people. You have to have a sacred vision of the good to which we can all aspire, in order for us to be a people living in Liberty walking in Liberty, right? The Galatians passage barks a lot. For liberty, you have been set free. After 1940 For whatever reason, it's hard to pinpoint why but obviously, it seems to be something in the legal the law schools in the universities, the Supreme Court started instituting a separation test doctrine between church and state. So while the accommodations doctrine always made a clear distinction between church and state, the state's not the church, the church, not the state, Christ's humanity and divinity, right. They're not commingled in the lie. By Gary Duncan 34:24 grant. That's why they came to America, one of the reasons they got away from England, Steve 34:28 because it was a state church. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. So so the church and the state are different, and yet they work together. And that's what made our experiments so powerful, so amazing, because freedom is what holds it all together, in that sense. And so then, after 1940, the Supreme Court started instituting more of a separations for you and we know that because they started quoting from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote rode to the Danbury, Baptists, Danbury, Connecticut, I'm not born not too far away from there, where he used this phrase against, not even in the Constitution, Jefferson didn't even write the constitution is not even in the Constitution, you know the phrase, the separation between church and state. And before 1940. That phrase was only used as I understand about a handful of times in Supreme Court decisions and deliberations in the light after 1940. It's been used 1000s of times. So something happened there. And what that did in effect is it drove the church from the public square, and consigned it solely into the private sphere of life care. You see it in our urban planning, you know, think of your New England Commonwealth, what was the most prominent building on the town green, the steeple, the church, absolutes, the church, you go into the medieval towns of Europe, the most prominent building that you see in the center of this beautiful medieval city, it's the church, right, and the castle is right across from often in the shadow of the church. So in our urban planning, we can see the the role the place that the church played in a flourishing human society today in modern urban planning, where's the church? Gary Duncan 36:25 Not it's beside the coffee shop, Steve 36:28 you got it. That's it, you got it. It's in the place of consumption, and consumerism. So you've got your, you've got your pizza hut, you know, you've got your dry cleaners, and you've got first Methodist, you've got it, it's push, it's pushed into the periphery, the private sphere of life. And here's how we tie it all together, Gary, there is no way that the church can proclaim truth, social truth, cultural truth, in that position, any more than Pizza Hut can. That's what happened to us. We got privatize, we were talking about it. Earlier in the break. You said it perfectly belonged to the church today, in most people's minds, even inside the church, thank God for the Holy Spirit, converting our hearts. But even inside the church, our social conditions have trained us to believe that being part of the church is being part of a club. It's being part of you might as well be part of weightwatchers right or what our yoga club or whatever it is, it has no objective moral truth to its proclamation anymore. So it's now ridiculed and laughed at and dismissed, and the like, what pastors are going to have to rediscover. And by the way, the Maga movement is right there to help them with this. What they're going to have to rediscover is a voice that can speak publicly. Again, this is not personal, private truth. Christ is truth, the law galls holds the universe together. And when we proclaim God's truth, that's true for everyone, regardless of whether you believe it or not, because that's public and a private, I get it personal, private, Subjective Truth. That's your deal. That's my deal. You like pistachio? I like chocolate. No problem, I got it. But when you're dealing with public, social life, truth is objective. It applies to all not just some, it's objective. It's not just subjective, it's obligatory. It's not just optional. Now, of course, we're free to respond. But that freedom of response is predicated on the objectivity of that truth. And that's what our pastors have to rediscover, when they rediscover it. They were discovered this that we're on fire. Gary Duncan 38:50 Yeah, I think, like you're saying, we've lost the identity or am I'm really about waking up the leadership, because the leaders are what leads the people, not the people lead the leader, but that's kind of where it's going. But we've lost our identity and our authority in our power. I mean, I'm reading the Bible, and it's saying, you know, these signs shall follow those who believe you will cast out demons you will heal the sick, right? speak in new tongues, and I'm looking around I'm going well, when's the last time I cast out a demon? Or anybody's cast out a demon and healed the sick and it's like, that's our heritage. God gave us through the Holy Spirit these abilities when he chooses to do those things. And if if leadership is not telling us and helping us, it's because that's the purpose. The purpose of these gifts are to edify the church so we can go out and do these things. And it just it just and that's why 2020 blew me away so bad is because the deception that came about And it's like, who are we anymore? And no wonder young people in the Millennials don't want to get involved in a church unless it's happy clappy and coffee and smoke machines and fog machines and all that kind of stuff. You know, it's a country club again. So and the one thing I'm, and here's my negative, so help me out here. I think when we get to the when we do wake up the left, and the evil that's behind the globalists and all the things, they're not going to let it go too long. I mean, you're talking about, it's getting time to where we're going to sacrifice more than just our good name, our lives, our livelihood, there's people out there now doing that and praise God to those that are standing and fighting. But I think that what the the leadership of the church needs to really get ready, is to gird up, because I see the coming age of the church not being happy clappy, but it's gonna be persecuted beyond belief where we're at coming. You see what they did in 2020? What's What are they willing to do if they're willing to kill children? And they're willing to euthanize the older and they're willing to, to propagate a bio weapon across the whole world? What are they willing to do? Ya know, it's scary when the church does stand up, what are they willing to do and we got to be ready for it. We got to know how to fight back. And that's my whole thing. We're not fighting. We've raised a bunch of in the last 50 years, we've raised a bunch of chocolate soldiers. You're in the first moment of any heat, we melt like, like little statues of a bunny rabbit. Steve 41:42 But that's what privatized faith does it right. It has it has no backbone, you know, it's like, you know, you renounce pistachio ice cream, I'm gonna punch you okay, I pronounced that. Right. That's that. That's what privatize faith does? It is it is. There's no I mean, when Alexander Solzhenitsyn came over to the United States, and gave his Harvard address in 1979, that amazing address called the world split apart. One of the first things he did it, I mean, everybody thought he was gonna go rah, rah West, he actually said no, Soviet Union is pretty horrible, pretty terrible. But the West is just a secular, it's just as atheistic and you're gonna go in the same direction, you're just you're doing it with four car garages, you know, you make it a little bit more tolerable. And he said, the one thing he noticed about the West, the principal characteristic that caught his eyes, we've lost courage. And in the classical world, the Four Virtues, wisdom, moderation, justice, and courage of those four, and that, you know, corresponds to the four elements of the cosmos. Right, that's all held together by the law girl. So we've got our four gospels, right, that all held together by Christ, the logos themselves, and then we have the additional faith, hope and love virtues and all that sort of stuff. It's all part of this amazing world, this identity would belong to 2000 years old, and even stretching before that with these, these pagan traditions that end up getting transfigured and, and by Christ himself. I mean, Solzhenitsyn pointed out, you know, of those Four Virtues, all the ancients recognize courage was the most important one, because without courage, you don't have the fortitude to defend the other three. Without courage, you can't defend, in this case, faith, hope and love. You can't defend it. You can't defend faith, family and freedom requires. It requires courage. So I think, look, I think the good news in this is, again, you look around the world and what's happened. You had 70 years of Soviet communism ravaged land. That was the jewel of Byzantium. Okay, so you're talking Czarist Russia, 60,000, ornate, gorgeous churches. Some of the biog some of the historical biographies you'll read, I mean, they weren't incredibly Pieta stick people, extraordinarily so Bolsheviks come in, and literally ravaged it so that by the end of that 70 year period, interesting, interesting number of by the way, at the end of that 70 year period, there were only 2000 functioning churches left they were gone, that it was going through 1000 monasteries during the Czar's period. Not a single monastery was an operation when the when the Soviet Union fell. And by the way, keep in mind, keep in mind, the very day the Soviet Union officially fell the most atheistic regime on the planet. Of course, it was December 25. It was Christmas Day, right. So a new birth happened because now here we are 30 years later. And by the way, this is this is true for much of eastern Europe as a whole 30 years later, a Russia is now approaching upwards of five 50,000 churches, they are on track by the year 2050, to be in full restoration of that czarist orthodox glory and the book by John Burgess, a theological historian at Pittsburgh seminary, where he went out to study the role of Christianity in Russia right now, what happened in Russia, in effect was communism got replaced by orthodoxy. So the vacuum that communism left was filled by going back to their identity by going back to their civilization, their cultures, a customs, and traditions. So for right or wrong, all that sort of stuff, you're not getting it all that what we have to understand is, that was after 70 years of the single most incessant atheistic regime on the planet that was literally killing millions upon millions upon millions of people. And here we are 30 years after it's collapsed. And the church is on fire. They're like never before there was a 2012 study done by the journal for the scientific study of religion. And they they had a marker of religious revivals, they had about seven different gauges for determining the level of religious revival. And they concluded there's no way around it. Christianity is on fire. So is Soviet Union falls and 1992. Only about 3019 91 Sorry, 30% of the population because themselves Christian, today. 70% does, it's hot. It's cool to be a Christian, and we're like we were talking about earlier today, what they were able to do is they were able to rediscover it and re weave Christianity into their culture into their, into their life. We they could do that with with, you know, their Russian Orthodox resources. And imagine what we can do with our evangelical resources. The way we can reawaken the church and weave it into every aspect of life. So yeah, it's gonna be dark. No question. Yeah, there's a Friday upon us. But you know what day follows Friday. Darkness of Friday is always followed by Sunday. Always. That's the Christian gospel all ways guaranteed. And when we have that faith, when we have that confidence, we cannot be intimidated. And when we cannot be intimidated, we like an axe, we begin turning the world upside down. Gary Duncan 47:40 Oh, great. I feel better already. No, that's good. That's good. I know you gotta run. One last question. We're gonna take it. See real quick. I'll edit this out. Sure. Okay. And you may have already answered but so where do you see us going from here in our culture? I know you're involved with reawakening tour. You've been involved with that. So with the church, do you? Where do you Well, let me ask you this. Where do you see England going? Now that we've got this new monarchy? That Well, Queen Elizabeth, she died? Okay. Sure. Sure. 70 years in reign? That's an interesting historical marker right there. Steve 48:35 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Which? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cuz in many ways, she really was the last monarch of Christendom, of real genuine Christian emerge, she was, she was anointed, she was literally anointed with the Holy oil as Queen back in her and throne, their coronation 1953 It was the same coronation ceremony that goes all the way back to the 10th century to their very first king. And, and she did she I think she she held that position brilliantly, as only she could is sort of the last, you know, Elizabeth and member of the Elizabethan era, as it were, where we go from here is very difficult to see because England has again like we do they have a choice and but England? Well, no, it's going to be the same to be the same. In many respects. The choice is, are you going to continue down this futile road of flippant leftist skepticism and doubt and secularism? Or are you going to rediscover in many ways, like Her funeral was a call to do? And this by the way goes for Anglican clergy, who were probably even worse than most lay people on this woke nonsense stuff. I know I went to school with them. in Durham University, are they going to re embrace truth as understood in 2000 years of the Christian tradition unbroken? Or are they going to go the way of secular leftist liberalism? If they go back to truth that is going to be the most unifying, powerful, socially revivifying choice they could possibly make. If they go down the road of secular flippant you know, liberalism, the UK will dismember you can write that down. The UK will dismember it will fall and we're talking was we're talking first all of its abroad territories, you know, in the, in the, in the Caribbean area and so forth and Pacific and it's, it's going to dismember there and then you'll start to see the Scottish referendums come out, you're gonna start seeing United Ireland movements come out like never before, you're gonna start seeing Welsh nationalism come out, like you're gonna see English nationalism come out like never before we start breaking apart what it'll break apart and and it'll start tribal laws, and there's no way and I think we're going that's inevitably what's gonna happen with us. Because that's, we're already there. The 35 nations have been added to the world map since 1991. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, we're already there. Write a text that today is more popular than it's ever been, right, the Texas independence movement. I mean, it doesn't matter what we're looking at. Everywhere we look whether it's the breakaway republics and Donetsk and Lugansk, in the, in the Donbass region in Ukraine, whether it's Transnistria Transnistria, is a breakaway Republic from Moldova that wants to hook up back with with Russia, or Burundi and Rwanda or Slovakia and the Czech Republic, the two Sudan's, you name it everywhere we look, the world is breaking up. And the question is, what can hold it together? What holds the nation together and you said, you use the word culture, and the church being at the center of culture, we have to remember what the word is at the heart of the word culture. And that's the Latin cult cult us. We're not talking about people knocking on your doors, giving you tracks and I had to lead us to worship or something like that. Right? Right. We're talking the old old word cultist, meaning worship, the place of worship, your culture always comes out of, it flows out of the font of what you worship. And if we are going to worship, if we're gonna go back to worship God, in the way that has sustained Western civilization now, for 2000 years, we're gonna have another 2000 years, no problem, if we're gonna go and embrace this brave new world, things will break up. There's no way the brave new world of secular liberalism, gloves, and so forth is going to shatter, it's going to collapse. And we're going to break up into all of our own different regional loyalties or, or ideological loyalties or religious worlds, whatever it is, or increasing like BLM and so forth. Racial loyalties, we're going to try belies breakup and there's nothing that will stop that apart from returning to our Christian faith, the Christian faith alone will hold the UK together, the Christian faith alone will hold the United States together, I am very optimistic about the United States. I have to be honest, I'm not particularly optimistic with the UK. Gary Duncan 53:49 So the church is the glue that holds it all together, our Christian faith, and so that if we can regain our identity, which I think that's kind of the grassroots the move that that's coming along is regaining our roots in our belief, and in America, the church, and what are our power and authority is in the culture, I think you're right, if we can regain that back and take it back from the darkness, we do still have some time we are the salt and the law. And so ultimately, that's, that's our job is to, to, to push back evil, and to you know, continue to have freedom in this country. So the return of the American patriot, your documentary, that's a good place to start to getting encouraged and I'm gonna get a hold of that and watch it and get encouraged to to just stand and fight and like Ephesians six says to stand and that's what we're doing and I appreciate you very much for what you're doing and, and all the work that you're doing through YouTube and just getting the word out because every little bit counts. You know, and you're doing a big part. So I want to encourage the little guys out there as well. You know if you've got a voice to stand and fight against this, do it. But Dr. Steve Turley appreciate your time very much. And thank you so much for, for what you're doing in our culture. Steve 55:20 Thank you, Garrett. God bless you. God bless everything you're doing God bless Tennessee in that little blue pot a little blue patcher in the Nashville area. Little God bless and you are you're doing God's work and calling the church his people and particularly the leaders to embrace who we've been called to be. We are We are more than conquerors through Him who called us Yeah, Gary Duncan 55:44 very good. Thank you so much. You appreciate God bless. Appreciate it very much. It was pleasure meet you. Steve 55:51 Oh, right back at you, man. Yeah, right back. atcha Yeah, I saw I saw the probe. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Today on the show Today on the best of, Anthony opens up the show talking about the Sixers' loss and how it's off to a slow start (00:00-23:54). The Cuz goes to the phones to talk to the city about the Sixers and Eagles (23:54-1:06:18). Zach Berman joins the show to talk about his predictions with the Eagles and Commanders game on Monday (1:06:18-1:29:17). The Cuz talks to T.V Todd about the trendiest T.V shows and the Cuz gives his predictions this the weekend of football a head (1:29:17-END).
Today I'm chatting with my friend Jen Corcoran about how to make your passion part of your business. Jen and I have known each other many years as we are both LinkedIn specialists - and we even met once in real life in London. Most recently we hosted the 'LinkedIn Like We're Human' workshop together which was so fun and people absolutely adored it. In case you missed it you can buy the recording of that 75-minute masterclass for only $27. Jen Corcoran is an award-winning LinkedIn expert. Known as ‘The Super Connector' and one of the UK's most successful LinkedIn trainers, she helps thousands of people thrive online through her online courses, consulting, workshops and talks. Jen helps female entrepreneurs to increase their confidence on LinkedIn by teaching them how to super boost their LinkedIn profile and connect with finesse in order to raise their brand, attract more clients and make more money in a holistic and human way. She is passionate about human design and is a Generator 1/3. In this episode, you'll learn about how to make your passion part of your business as well as... Jen's recent brand transformation - and personal awakening Her new 'niche' that mirrors who she is and how she sees the world of business How she also brought her passion for Human Design into her LinkedIn work How knowing more about their design helps her clients show up on LinkedIn What has changed for her since this transformation, how she communicates differently How she lives her new 'brand' on LinkedIn? What kind of posts etc? Her advice to listeners if they would like to combine one of their passions with their work but don't know where to start. And so much more Jen's Resources Jen's Website Check out Jen's free resources Connect with Laura on: LinkedIn YouTube Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at email@example.com Thanks for listening! After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast? The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers - a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact. — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: Hey Jen, so good to speak to you. Jen: Lovely to see you, Sarah. Thanks for having me on today. Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Feel like we just spoken and we did LA we just hosted that, , workshop on LinkedIn, like we're human together last week. Right. And so yeah. Great. We decided, Okay. You know, it's a good idea to also, , kind of host a podcast. But with a bit of a different angle. So we're not actually gonna talk too much about LinkedIn, even though Yeah. That's what you do for a living. But I'm super curious, , about this transformation that I feel like you've gone through in the last, would you say a year or, or so? Jen: Yeah, definitely a year and definitely this whole year. So 2022. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So from just seeing and also our conversations via email, but also just seeing your, your posts on LinkedIn, you can kind of see from the outside. Ah, Jen [00:01:00] has been going through some transformation, you know, some in their work, but then that was also reflected in your brand. Right. So kind of tell us about, Transformation, what led you to it? Probably and, and yeah. Where, what you're doing now. Jen: Yeah. I think it's just, I think when you are a business owner, you're always doing some kind of personal development work to, to get better. Within yourself that will help your business as a whole. So I think just from coaching and networking, I've met some really interesting people over the last few years and one of them was a specialist in human design and I had a mini human design reading where, and I was like, Wow, this is really interesting. I wanna explore more. So got really nerdy. You recommended a great book to me, which I read, and I did a course and kind of dipping my toe in more and more and more and started to do mini [00:02:00] readings from my clients. , so yeah, if just from networking, I met an amazing human design specialist. I'll give her a shout out. Nicole Leno, and she's got an amazing podcast as well. And uh, yeah, she kind of triggered that kind of part of me and. Another thing I discovered over the last year or two during the Covid times really , was that I'm a highly sensitive person, which was pretty eye-opening. I never real, I knew I was a bit sensitive, but I, I had no idea that one in five people was like me. I always thought I was a bit of an oddball on my own and kind of, you know, tried to mirror everybody else around me. Finding out that one in five, you know, whether their male or female is highly sensitive, was just like an epiphany moment. And it was like, Sarah: where did you say, one out Jen: of five? Yeah, 20%. Wow. Which I never realized. I, I thought they're not, you know, there can't be that many people like me out there, or that's how I felt. Yeah. So it was really freeing and I was just, Where are these people? Because [00:03:00] I don't really see them, especially on LinkedIn. , there's more of that kind of hustle bro marketing approach. And I was like, we're all sensitive people. I wanna connect with them. All the impacts. So I think, yeah, the combination of the HS p and then the human design have led to my epiphany . Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And that's exactly, I loved, loved it so much how you kind. You know, it made your, uh, , audience participate in that discovery because you were like posting things on LinkedIn. , did you know this about HSPs and so , There's probably a fair amount of your, , followers who discovered at the same time as you did that they are, , highly sensitive people. Yeah, it was really interesting to watch that transformation. And, to me, from the outside looking in, it looks. Your ideal client is now kind of a twin of you or a mirror of [00:04:00] you? . It's Jen: me, . It's basically another sensitive, so I either an inch pair an empire or a highly sensitive person. So because I just think I didn't have these role models when I was, you know, starting off in business or going into the online space, I modeled. The nonsense of people. And yes, it's worked to a point, but I, yeah, I just wouldn't like really represent the other side of things because I think as sensitives, we are the kind of the quiet nurturers in the background who are not necessarily making the most noise and we're always trying to spotlight other people and , , Nurture from afar. So I feel like yeah, kind of a responsibility to get that side of things out there and to, you know, be somebody for the other sensitives to relate to as well. Because I think a lot of the, the traditional, like non sensitive marketing made me feel like a bit of a failure. It was like I could do it to a point, and then it was [00:05:00] like, why isn't this working for me? I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Why does this feel gross? Yeah. Or why can't I do this? Is it because I'm so sensitive? And then you kind of realize, oh, there is another way of doing things . Yeah, totally. But just put that out Sarah: there. Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel right now with your new brand? Because like if you talk. Typical thing of nicheing, , Yeah. You know, how do you define your niche? And, and now really in your words, it's like, well, I am my best ideal client. And so often I have, , kind of new people in business telling me is that even okay? Can we, you know, look at it that way? And I'm like, Yeah, for sure. Because we are creating the solution that we never saw out there. So, So do you see it that way as well? Jen: Yeah, definitely. And I think for a long time I'm very much an accidental business owner. I never set out [00:06:00] to, to intentionally do this, and it happened by accident. So I think for the first year of my business There wasn't a lot of attention behind what my brand was and who I stood for, and I was helping everyone. And then it got to a point when it was like, Okay, who do I intentionally wanna work with? And then I was, you know, still not super focused. And then it's got to the stage where, who do I like working wear? And it's okay to choose the people that I like because for me, energy is super important and. I'm sure we've all had experiences when we've worked with the wrong people and your energy is totally depleted, like mentally, physically. And I think it got to that point where I thought, you know what, Who says being in business can't be fun? Who says I can't work with the people that I want to, who can give me energy and I can give them energy? So it's kind of, it's taken me a long time. I wish I'd. Got to this realization in the first year of my business, but I think it's taken like five years to actually go, Do you know what? I have the right to choice. It's my business, my rules, and these are the people I choose to support. [00:07:00] Yeah. Um, I think when you first start, you just wanna help everyone, but then you're a bit too generic and a bit too vague, and you're ultimately not helping. And you're not helping yourself either because you're not reaching or connecting with the right people. Sarah: Right? Yeah. No, totally. So, so to me, you really kind of applied humane marketing because not only did you bring more of you to your marketing, so the H S P aspect, but then you also brought in your passion, which is the human design, right? So, yeah. Yeah, really combining things that we think is just. Fitting into the business world. Did you ever ask yourself that question? Can I? Yeah. Who am I to do that? Jen: Yeah, definitely. And I struggled with it and. , initially, especially with the, Yeah, well, both of them. It was like, Oh, if I start saying I'm as sensitive, well people think, Oh, I don't wanna work with her , what does that mean? And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about, like, do people think I'm constantly [00:08:00] crying and it's like, I don't, I don't cry that much. I cry on something sad, you know, obviously, but I've, I'm not like this overly emotional person, but I think when you say sensitive a lot, there's a lot of misconceptions out there with certain terms and they don't know what that means. So I think for me, I. Explore what that meant as well. What were the pros, what were the cons? And then I started to realize, oh, my sensitivity, the fact that I am an empath is my superpower because I can genuinely like support and nurture those clients that need that help, as opposed to just that, just do it. Approach and people are left kind like, Oh, I need a bit more support, more engagement, more accountability. So it took me a while to kinda lean into that. And then especially with the human design, I did struggle thinking, Woo, is this a bit too woo for people? And then I had to really like at myself and go, You know what? Who says it can't be a bit woo? And then it was like, I think I felt like I'd been. Putting myself in a box, like a marketing box [00:09:00] like everyone else. But it didn't feel quite right. And having discovered the human design, it was like, well, this is the missing piece. And actually, if people know me on a, on an individual level, I've always been quite you. Woo. And I remember even being like, you know, 10 years old and buying books. Capricorn, what does it mean to be a Capricorn? And then, you know what, whatever 20 yard get my life chart read and I am into this kind of thing. So it's been, it's been really interesting integrating this and I, and I'm not fully there yet. I'm very much a work in progress and it's. It's actually typical of my human design. I've learned I'm the type of person has to investigate, do a lot of research, and I'm doing that at the moment. I've given myself the goal of a hundred mini human design readings from my clients, and I think. Once I've ticked off that box in my head, then I'll transition more, a lot more into the, into that in the marketing. So I'm very much in my reset. I wish, [00:10:00] I wish I wasn't one of the, the, like the, the investigators that have to kind of do this, but this is my personality . I have to dig deep before I've got the confidence. Now I've, I know I've done the research, I've done all. Did. Now I feel like I'm gonna talk about this. Whereas I know there's lots of other people who are just like, Okay, I'm an expert. I've done one reading, and here I go. Whereas I have, I feel personally and according to my design, I have to do it the long way. Yeah, it's very much a work in progress, but I'm getting there. I've done, like, I've done 75 mini readings over the summer, which has been really exciting. , I've, it's been great getting to learn everybody's personality, , their makeup and getting their feedback too. And, you know, hearing that it resonates so much, even from like a simple little reading. Sarah: So how do you combine the two then? Are these still LinkedIn clients and you're just using the human design as kind of a, a way to discover their superpower? Or are they coming [00:11:00] to you only for human design? Jen: No, they're, they're definitely LinkedIn clients, and then I've done a few Guinea things with friends and family as well. So I'm incorporating it really in terms of. Content and sending dms and what feels natural. So it's very much a, a mini human design reading. I'm not saying, Oh, I'm the ultimate human design expert. It's just, I've taken a kind of a flavor of it, like what I think is really interesting in terms of online marketing and feeding that back. And I think it's given people so much. Insight and then freedom to be themselves and realize, wow, we're not all born to just do it and manifest and initiate Yeah. And I think that that makes a lot of people feel like failure because there's like, Why can't I just do it? And then you kind of read their design and you're like, Ah. Cause you're not built to just do it. It's not Sarah: being right. Yeah. I, And I love that. I love how. [00:12:00] Call it a mini reading because you're saying, you know, like you said, you know, others go to human design school and I think it takes like a, I don't, can't remember how long, but it, it's pretty intense. And so you're like, No, I'm passionate about this and I know enough to be able to tell you. You know, this is your design and this is how I think now you can use it in, you know, your showing up on, on LinkedIn and, and it's similar to what we do in the marketing, like we're human program and the P of Personal Power. I go, you know, I show them about human design, I show them about the ENEA grant, like everything. We're like, okay, let's just do a lot of personality assessments to really figure out how we're wired and who we are. Yeah. And because like, Showed. And, and that's why I, I loved having you on for this is it's like when you know who you are and how you're wired, then you can really market from within and just show up, [00:13:00] right? Jen: Yeah. And um, you remind me that I have got a book on any grand I've yet to read cuz I like you, I love anything to do with this. So I've done all the disc, the Myers break. That is on my reading list and yeah, it's another good one. Another one to explore. Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. So what do you feel like has changed, since this transformation? Like do you feel like in your LinkedIn post you show up differently, more confident or. What has changed? Yeah. I think I'm Jen: just more confident in myself. It's taken away a lot of stress about feeling, and I had to act one way and having that inner struggle, but not quite understanding why I had that inner struggle. because I could do a lot of like nonsensitive things or things that are against my design, but, you know, knowing deep down that things didn't feel. Completely a hundred percent good . And so it's made me kind of go, Oh, okay. That's why that doesn't feel good because my design as a generator is that I'm built [00:14:00] to respond and I, it totally makes sense when I learn that, you know, I can go on LinkedIn any minute of the day and I can respond and do a comment to any post because that's just who I am. And I like giving my opinion and I like sharing like that. And I just, To be in response. So that's really been eye opening as opposed to this kind of, you know, initiation, constantly creating content. I can do it, you know, but I have to be in response to something. So it could be a. We did our amazing workshop on, you know, LinkedIn. Well, we're human and I'll think back and go, Okay, what were the questions that people were asking me? And then I'll go out and make content in response. Mm-hmm. to that. And that feels good because they're general, you know, FAQs, the questions, answers. Whereas I did struggle with just creating content, you know, out of nowhere. So I think, yeah, once you know, Your makeup, like what feels good for you, then you can, Then you can, Yeah. You just feel a lot more free, a lot more happy at [00:15:00] ease. Whereas before, yeah, I just felt a bit more in a box and a bit more pressurizing and I was like, Why can't I do this the way the others do ? And at the surface I probably looked like I was, you know, doing it the same, but it just didn't feel as good deep down. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. , I feel like. We're talking about the worldview a lot in humane marketing. Like instead of maybe narrowing down your niche, so specifically I, I say bring your worldview to your marketing. do you feel like, Openly saying, you, you talked about the woo does that feel like, okay, this is part of my worldview. That's just how I see things, and whether you agree with that or not, I don't care because this is where I stand for. Yeah. Jen: Yeah. I think it's important to bring yourself and your two personality to your marketing, because you'll never. , you want to attract the right people and you wanna repel the wrong people. Mm-hmm. . So if somebody doesn't like the woo, they're not my ideal client, and that, and [00:16:00] that's fine. You know? , so I think it's about just leaning into that and realize you are never gonna attract everyone anyway. And, and. Thinking, Well, who do you wanna attract? And if you speak their language, they will come to you. The other people won't be interested. But they will have a very different worldview and a very different way of thinking. Cause I know the two of us, we have a big focus and passion about. Showing up as a human being. So I'd say we're both more excited than the algorithm and the stats and the, the kinda analytical side of it. Obviously we know about it, but it doesn't light me up. We'd ra like, we'd rather a human approach and I think people who resonate with that will come to us. Whereas if somebody is more, you know, interested in the algorithm and the figures, there will be another trainer or consultant that will be the best fit for them and that's fine. They're not my adding client . So I think it's kinda, yeah. , just realizing that you will actually be a lot happier in your business. You will [00:17:00] attract. Far better clients if you lean into who you are. And I know initially I was afraid to do it because you're looking at everyone else and you have feeling you have to be this perfect version of you and then you realize it's kind of all built on a lie. And I think that's how I felt with my business. I'd won all these awards, but I just felt all a bit fake. It was kind of like, I've done your way of marketing, I can do it, but deep doesn't resonate at all. It's like, and it didn't, you know, I didn't always attract the right people to me, and that's why, because I was perpetuating one kind of type of marketing that wasn't fully in alignment. So I think, yeah, it's just realizing is, is okay to show up as yourself, you know, Woo. Warts and all, you know, and, and you, you'll feel a lot freer and. That will, you will attract the right people then because the right energy will go out. Sarah: Before you said, you know, you wish you'd known five years ago. And, and, and I definitely [00:18:00] feel the same. Do you feel like. Sometimes I'm confused. I feel like maybe it's almost like you have to go through this in order to figure out who you are. Yeah. But at the same time, I would like, , for new business owners to kind of take the shortcut and just start with that. But it's, I seem to hear that story over and over again. I wish I'd known, you know, when I, I kind of went. That direction first until I came back and came full circle. What's the, Yeah, what's your take Jen: on this? I think it, I think everybody just needs to read your books. . Thanks. You know, the marketing book and the selling book, because I think people just need to know there are different options out there, you know, because, We don't all fit in the same box, but sadly, a lot of people who have louder voices get their kind of boxes out there, and you think that that's the norm. Whereas there are like quite earth boxes, , you know, more sensitive sides. So I think it's [00:19:00] important to, to just spotlight that there are different ways and different types of people, different types of personalities, different types of makeup. , and sadly, a lot of that wasn't out there, and I'm so grateful for you writing your books and starting this conversation and starting your marketing circle and getting the conversation out there because I think more people need to hear it because. Yeah, there's a lot of, it's, you know, there's so many people looking on LinkedIn and it's like, why are they looking? They're probably sensitive. They're probably like us kinda going, Oh, I'm not sure if this resonates with me. This feels a bit too much. So yeah, I think it's important to, to get this message out there because we don't want people to. Go to the, you know, the pain. Yeah, yeah, the pain. But I suppose, like you say, sometimes is worth it. It's like a diamond. It has to be crushed, doesn't it? To, you know, have as brilliance in the end. And I suppose you appreciate. The journey when you're at the end of it. I don't, can't say I appreciated it [00:20:00] in the hard times, but, I suppose that's what we do. We've done the journey in the hard times, and I don't want everybody to have to go through this if they can avoid Sarah: it. Yeah. So you're, you're, what you're saying is you think it's still like that for a lot of people who are just starting. They take some kind of, I, you know, hear it from a lot of coaching. They get their coaching, degree or accreditation. And then immediately even in the school, they tell 'em, Oh, there's this and this marketing program. And usually they're the big. Big giant programs, Right. That we all know who we're talking about. Yeah. And they're exactly, They're just kind of get fit into this box or funnel or whatever. Yeah. And then, yeah, they're like, Oh, I didn't know I was gonna have to do this marketing thing. That really doesn't feel good. . Yeah. Jen: Yeah. I think so many bus, I mean, I was naive when I first launched. I was like, Oh, here's my website today. And I just thought, Oh, they're all so booking in. Sales calls. I [00:21:00] don't need sales calls. I'm an introvert. They're just gonna book to my website and they're gonna email me. And it was kinda like, , no , you have to get like your voice out there and attract people to your website. So it is very much a learning lesson. And I think a lot of business owners, we did not go into business to be doing, the marketing side of things or the selling side of things. So yeah, I. And there's, I've heard of so many horror stories, like you said, about big programs where there's very much a methodology that's the, the lead coach's way. But quite often the lead coach is quite unique in their makeup or their personality or their human design. So it's not easily like replicated with the people that sign up because they're completely different. You know, mindset wise, mentality wise, make you know, completely different types of people. But they kind of perpetuate that this is the only, the only way to do it. And that's why a lot of people fall out of love with LinkedIn or the online [00:22:00] space, cuz they're just like, Oh, it's too hard. but yeah, they kind of push this method as the only way and. I have heard about people just doing things that didn't resonate and then just writing off LinkedIn or writing off the online space, which is quite sad. , which I think is important. Like that's why it's so important to have your, your voice out there, your message out there, your books out there. Sarah: Mm. Thank you, Jen. Yeah. What, what do you say to someone who's listening and, you know, they're thinking about this idea of the passion? Maybe it's, woo, maybe it's, yeah, maybe it's not. Woo. Maybe it's just something that they're doing as a hobby. , and they, that they really love and they're like, I wish I could. You know, do more of this. And I think really that's what, where we're heading, I'm always talking about this new business paradigm, but that's what I mean by the new business paradigm is like, how do we combine, , these things? I don't even buy into the conversation of, you know, you're not really running a business. It is a hobby. I'm like, Well, what [00:23:00] if one can be the other? It's just like, why do we have to define. One as a hobby and the other one as a business. Yeah. What if we just not talk about making a life or making a living? You know, like, yeah, we all ne have bills to pay. We need to provide for ourselves, but we just need to figure out what we can do That A, brings us joy, but also, you know, somehow pays the bills. So yeah. What would you say to someone who's like, I have. Passion for something, but it has nothing to do with what I do for a living. You know? What would you tell them? How did you go about thinking, What if I bring this in? Jen: I would just say lean into it a hundred percent. And I know somebody said it to me like five and a half years ago. Do something you love. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I kind of brushed it off and I was like, Oh, I like LinkedIn, whatever. And I didn't fully listen to them and it's taken me five years to come around. So definitely, incorporate that. [00:24:00] They don't have to be two separate things, as Sarah is saying, and you're gonna need some kind of point of differentiation. I think at the, at the start, we're all like, What's my usb? What's my usp? And there's a lot of it that crosses over everybody else's usp. But I think it's the thing that will make you different is this passion, you know, this love for something. That will be the thing that will actually draw people to you, which I would never have thought of, you know, five years ago. I would just think, Well, you're willing to train, you're gonna come, I'm gonna chat about LinkedIn. Why would I chat about anything else? So I would fully lean into it and you might surprise yourself with, you know, the opportunities and. People buy people, but it's, it's that passion and energy and I know kind of leaning into human design has reignited my love of LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. , which is probably dwindling a little bit because of that Bro hustle marketing. I was like, oh God, you know, It was a way for me to kind of go, okay, if I do a bit of [00:25:00] this and a bit of that, It just, yeah, it's re-energized me and my business, and I'm a lot more excited to work with people one to one and kick things off with the human design reading, you know? So I would say, yeah, fully lean in, Don't discount any of your passions because they can be the thing that makes you stand out and be memorable. Top of mind. So, yeah, lean into it and you never know, like, who's to say your passion can't make you money. Like, you know, I think we all have this idea, and I know I did that. You know, business is hard. It has to be hard. We have to do the hard work. We've come from corporate and we've done so many hours and it has to be the same in our business. And you think, no, actually, you know, our passions and our strengths, not everybody has them right for staff, and we deserve to be paid well for them. We're sharing our knowledge and our enthusiasm at, you know, and our expertise. So I would lean into it because who says you can't have fun with your business and [00:26:00] you can't do something that you love? And the most successful business owners are the ones who are in love with what they do, , because it doesn't feel like a business. Then they've got that motivation. They wanna wake up, they wanna do more of that, whereas, yeah. I, I was losing a little bit of passion, and I won't lie, , I was about two years ago. I was kind of like, oh, because there was too many other, you know, just crush it, just do it. And I was like, Oh, this isn't resonating. So finding this or leaning into this bit of woo , I don't think is way, but I, you know, the, the, the wrong type of person will think is way, whatever. I'm not interested in this at all, but leading into it has really like little spark in me. Yeah, I totally lean into your passion. Never discount them because you never know where it's gonna lead you. And who says can't make you money? . Sarah: Yeah. And, and I really, again, from the outside looking in it like it made your brand, like, you know, before you had a brand, but. [00:27:00] It that was kind of like, Well, it's what everybody else is saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and let's, let's just say it how it is, like, you know, Link, There's a lot of LinkedIn specialists and experts now. Before when we started, maybe less. Yeah. Um, but, but now everybody is a LinkedIn trainer, so Yeah. How can you, Yeah. How do you stand out? And that's kind of just an additional benefit of bringing your passion into your business because that's truly how you're gonna Yeah. Stand out and be remembered. I'm, I remember, one of my, , early friend online friends, Denise Wakeman, she. Probably like 10 years ago now, she kind of rebranded into, can't remember the exact name of the brand, but really had to do with her adventurous spirit. And she was always traveling and to like, you know, crazy places like Peru and, and all these places. And she made that her brand and so, That kind of stuff sticks with you. So [00:28:00] I think it's, it's the same thing for you Jen: really. It's how you connect as a human being, isn't it? It's like when you, Right before this podcast, I was in a networking event and it's a little bit different in the sense of the host makes us. Kind of not strange questions but different questions. Like one question was, you know, tell me something off your book at list or tell me , what's your guilty pleasure? And it's kind of like these kind of questions are how you connect. Cuz we were all laughing, you know, we were chatting about a lot of the guilty pleasures were really trash TV programs, And it was like, ok, I'm gonna remember you're the lady that liked that. You know, like rather. Your profession. You know, like it's when you bring that bit of personality in. Yeah. Another one was like, who would you take on a blind date? And this was how we were actually connecting and laughing as human beings. This kind of made such a difference and I think. In business, you can kind of be tunnel vision and like, Oh, I'm LinkedIn trainer. You know, LinkedIn is [00:29:00] all blah, blah, blah. LinkedIn. LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. But it, you know, it was when you bring that extra passion in or that extra thing that you do, like, I love the, the way you were always mentioning that you're like an ex hippie that's in my head, you know? So I think, yeah, things like that make the. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. Ah, this has been so good. Thank you so much, Jen. I, I can, I think people hear that passion as well, you know, it's like, Yeah. You can tell that from the kind of boring, you know, LinkedIn algorithms, blah, blah, blah. No, it's like, You're talking to humans. Yes, these humans want to use LinkedIn, but you're basically helping them with this tool that is human design to really figure out, well, how is this LinkedIn tool gonna work for you? Because you're just listening to everybody else out there. Well, they're gonna tell you, yeah, to sell your soul on LinkedIn and maybe that's not gonna work for you. [00:30:00] So, Jen: Oh, and I think it gives you, it gives you an understanding of yourself, but it also gives you an understanding of of other people. And then it's like, Oh, okay, that didn't work for that person, because they're that type of person and I think we need to learn to. Understand each other more because there's a lot of copy and paste and, you know, cookie clutter approaches out there, and they're never gonna work with everyone. They're only gonna resonate where it's a tiny percentage. So I think the more you can understand yourself and others, the more you're gonna connect as a, as an individual, and you're gonna have better relationships. And I think so many people just wanna fast track, don't they? They just want this magic silver bullet. I want it now. Yeah, and you have to put Sarah: a little bit work in. And I was just thinking as, as you're talking it, it's because we're, we're hosting a, a workshop about, about confidence and there as well. The first part to confidence is to know yourself and find out who you are and how you're wired. And so when you think about marketing, you [00:31:00] need confidence to market well, you need to know yourself first before you get the confidence. So Jen: yeah, that's really interesting cuz I don't. A lot of, many readings this year and one of my clients there is like one of the centers in human design about the south, and hers is completely open. And yeah, she doesn't really know herself. She's actually in that transition of trying to, you know, Find out who she is, and I know it's definitely led to a lot of procrastination for her and mm-hmm. and stress. So I think, yeah, you really need to know who you are, who you stand, you know, what you stand for, what are your values, what are you trying to achieve, and not copy other people's values. You really need to dig deep as to what's gonna resonate with you. Yeah. Rather than, you know, a lot of copy and paste. Oh, that sounds good. I'll take a bit of that. Or I should be doing this because I do this. But yeah, I. You have to, you have to have that confidence. That's if you don't have it. You're [00:32:00] not gonna ever be comfortable showing up as a business owner, whether it is online or on a sales call or anything, and people can feel that off you They can feel that energy if you are not confident. They're not gonna be confident in partnering with money to work with you. Confidence is everything, isn't it? Sarah: It is. Yeah. This has been so good. Thank you so much for taking the time. Please do share with people where they can find you and maybe sign up for a, a mini reading slash LinkedIn Consulting. Tell us all about where they can find you. Pairing Jen: Sarah, so obviously I'm on LinkedIn, so it's Jen Corcoran, c o r c o r a n, or my website is www.mysuperconnector.co uk. And yeah, so two of them are probably my main things and you could find my email on my website as well. Sarah: [00:33:00] Wonderful. I always have one last question and that is, what are you grateful for today? Or this. Jen: I'm grateful for you on this conversation and someone bringing the human side of life and marketing out there, because I don't know anybody else doing it, Sarah. So I'm grateful for us getting this out in the world, and I can't wait to share this podcast with my network and my community. So, yeah, grateful for a like mine. Thank you. Fellow hsv, fellow introverts, fellow centered people in business. Cause I know when I first started it was like heart centered. What's that? That's a bit, you know? But yeah, I'm all about people like you and you, Sarah: and likewise. Thank you so much for hanging out again, Jen. We'll do it again Jen: soon. Thanks Ev. Thanks everyone.
Akuyea Karen Vargas: source (https://www.tidelandmag.com/articles/2022-03-a-warrior-for-peace)(photo credit: Nora Phillips)"Vargas may be small in stature, but the 59-year-old mother of three is a towering presence in the West Sound's African American community. An army veteran, community activist, arts educator, youth mentor and historian, she has been a tireless advocate for the young and underserved, and for healing racial divisions in our communities for over 25 years.After growing up on the East Coast and serving in the Army, Vargas arrived here in 1992 when her husband was assigned by the Navy to the Bangor submarine base. Raising her three Black children in the overwhelmingly white Bainbridge schools was a rude awakening, Vargas recalls. Advocating for her own children in the school system led her to start advocating for other children of color. Eventually she joined the district's Multicultural Advisory Committee, which she co-chairs to this day.Through two programs she founded in 2003, the Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project and Living Life Leadership, Vargas has taught cultural history and life skills to hundreds of youth throughout Kitsap County, including many of the young leaders who spoke at those demonstrations in 2020.Recognizing her contributions, Governor Jay Inslee bestowed Vargas a 2021 Governor's Arts and Heritage Award in the new category of Luminaries, honoring people who “stood as shining lights for their community during the pandemic.” Commenting on the award, Sheila Hughes, executive director of the Bainbridge Island Museum of Art, described Vargas as “a trusted advisor… as well as a great friend who has a genuine laugh and a huge hug just when you need one.”Multicultural Advisory Committee Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project and Living Life Leadership2021 Governor's Arts and Heritage AwardDanielle (00:35):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on race, faith, justice, gender and healing. And as many of you know or aware, I mean it's election season. It's election day. And whether we're voting today, we already voted. Maybe some of us cannot vote for various reasons in our communities. This is an important time in the nation and it has been an important time for many years. I think back to 20 16, 20 18, 20 20. And now we're in 2022 and we're still working through what does it mean to exercise this right to vote? What does it mean? What is impacting our communities? What things are important? And today I had a Coyier, Karen Vargas of Kitsap County. She is an elder. She is on the Multicultural Advisory Committee for our county. She is living arts cultural heritage, founded the Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project and Living Life Leadership. She has taught cultural history and life skills to hundreds of youth throughout Kitsap County and including many of the young leaders who spoke at demonstrations in 2020. Ms. Vargas is concerned about the impact of what Covid did. She is deeply invested. And in 2021, the governor of Washington, Jay Insley, bestowed on Vargas an arts and heritage award in the category of luminaries honoring people who stood as shining lights for their community during the pandemic. And someone that commented on the award, Sheila Hughes, the executive director of the Bainbridge Island Museum of Art, described Vargas as a trusted advisor as well as a great friend who has a genuine laugh and a huge hug for just when you need one. So as you think about listening tune in and hopefully keep an open mind to the conversation. So it's just an honor to join forces Akuyea (02:51):, what we need to be doing. We have done tremendous work together for many years back from the Civil Rights Movement and even before we were working in a collective collaborative way to address the issues that affect all of our communities. And so the more we can do that, the more we can cultivate that, I think we can begin to do some impactful work that will move things forward. Danielle (03:24):And I love the way we got connected. It happened at church. Yeah, I saw you at a couple events before that, but then you were speaking to church and I saw the post on Instagram. I was like, I told my family we're going to church today, I know. So we showed up and we made this connection around youth and mental health. Would you be able to speak to that a little bit? Akuyea (03:50):Yes. Our children are not doing well, let's just start there. Our children are having a difficult time. They're dealing with trauma, they're dealing with depression, they're dealing with anxieties, just dealing with life and they don't know how or what to do. In 2019, I had one of my living life leadership students take her own life and it devastated me the way she did it. She ran in the middle of a highway, sat down and allowed car to run over her. And what I still mean, the actual act devastated our students, our parents, her friends, the school. And we have to address some of the issues because we knew before that time that she was struggling with her mental health and with depression and all these things. And so what do we do when we, when actually know we are aware that our students have social and emotional stuff and trauma and stuff? Pauses. Because she was struggling with her meds too. She said those medications made her feel all wacky And then she was telling me some of the medication that she said would cause depression. I said, Well, why you on medication? It's gonna cause depression or anxiety. And so we need to have a conversation. We need to be talking about it. And we need to be talking about it from multiple issues, not just with the parents or the students or with the schools, but for the health and wellbeing of that young person. Should we be prescribing all this medication? They don't know the chemical imbalances. I'm not sure. That's not my field . But to be able to help them to process some of all of this , we really need to be talking more about the mental health of our young people. We have to do it. Danielle (06:43):I mean, first I'm stunned and not stunned because death of young, of the young is always shocking. And I'm aware that it's also I'm angry and sad that also it is not surprising. And I think you named the year as 2019. So this was even before a pandemic. Akuyea (07:12):Before the pandemic. So I know that we were dealing with this way before the pandemic. And only God can tell you The depth of all of that during and even now the results of the pandemic in the state of our young people's health, mental health, especially their mental health. Danielle (07:40):I think one thing that struck me when I spoke to you after that church service was the fact that I began to tell you stories of my own children at school. And you were like, I got into advocacy because of my kids. And it's not that I wasn't paying attention before I had kids experiencing it, but it becomes heightened alert, heightened awareness, and just even watching the depression cycle through my own family cycle, through my friend's kids on multiple levels. I mean from depression to anxiety to suicidal ideation to self harm, to just the lack of ability to pay attention or find interest like you described the hopelessness. And so just the heightened awareness. And then we were talking about schools and this and we are now post 2020, George Floyd, the murder of George Floyd by police, the multiple other lynchings that happened in that year. And we're back. We're actually talking on election day and the impact this has on students of color and their mental and frankly white bodied students too. This is not just a one section of society's problem, this is a larger issue. Akuyea (09:05):And the role of social media plays in their isolation and just being focused on what I call the device and not engaging and not having those healthy social skills and not being able to sit down in a room and just have a conversation. Being in rooms plenty enough time that our students are talking to one another, sitting right next to one another. And that's about, they don't want us to know what they're talking about. I know what that's about too. Let's not play. We don't know what that's about too. But when you ask them to sit down and just let's talk, they act like they don't do it. They don't know what to do. . And I think we are losing how to engage personally and how to have healthy relationships personally. One, we were doing some conflict. I can remember we were doing some conflict resolution and someone had advised, and I won't say the name, someone had advised, Well let's do this on Zoom. I said, Wait, wait, wait. , you know, can be brave at a distance, but you need to come into a circle . And you need to be able to look the individual in their eye. . You need to be able to see their body language and to be able to feel what's happening in the environment. . I said there are elements that when you are moving to do conflict resolution or healing and peacemaking, that that's done in a , intimate in an environment where those can come together. . And I understand Zoom has been a good tool in everything , but I also know social media and zoom, give your balls that you don't have when you sitting in front of somebody and you got to be accountable for some harm that you have done. , you feel safe because you know what, You can say what you want to say and you can do all of that. Because you know what? I'm just on a zoom , I'm over here , I can be brave over here. Could you stand before the individual and confront some mess that go down But if we're going to get to a place of healing and reconciliation, you have to be able to step into that Because the bottom line, if I got conflict with you and you got conflict with me and we can say all we can be on social media calling each other, boom, bam, bam, bam, bam. When, and this happened with some of our students too. , when they confronted each other, one of them stabbed the other one to death. Now all of that hostility was allowed over the social media to be able to do all that. Building up, texting. I'm coming over, I'm gonna kick your tail. And Danielle (13:19):I think you bring up something that I'm thinking about Aku, which is not only do we need to, we can't intervene on our students behalf unless we as caregivers, parents, community members, adults in the community are willing to do the work first. Gonna smell it a mile away. Yes. They're gonna know if we haven't done the work ourselves. AKuyea (13:46):Let tell you about our young people. They are the best hustlers learners. And they, they're watching us And they say, Oh yeah, they ain't about it. They ain't about it now. In fact, they're learning from us We are their first teachers. . They know when we talk trash and they sitting over here. That's why all of this stuff is coming up in our schools. You've got all of these racist ideologies coming out. The students are listening to their parents in their home talking yang yang and saying, Oh no, we ain't doing this. Yeah. Them negros in, Oh this, that, all of that racists ideology at home. And when the students, they're ear hustling, they say, Oh no, my parents, no. And giving them the green light, they come to school and guess what? They feel em bolded and empowered to say and do what they want. Because guess what? Those parents have modeled it for 'em and modeled it for them very well. . And they feel like they can say what they want. Their parents got their back Even the teachers come to school with racist ideologies, . And it pours out on students of color. When you got staff and teachers calling students the N word and it's okay, going on, something's very wrong with that picture . But yet here we find ourselves in 2022 So we've got all kinds of dynamics happening, but popping off in the schools Danielle (15:51):So we can't be people as community members, adults, people that wanna see change in progress from whatever lens you're coming from. We cannot be people that say, Hey, let's have peace. If we're not gonna be willing to have that conversation in our own homes, Because our kids will go into schools which they are doing and they will enact what we're doing in our private lives. They'll continue to perpetuate it. So we have to be people about what we do in our private lives is what we do. What privately happens is publicly is publicly congruent. Akuyea (16:34):Oh, I'm glad you said that. Because what's done in the dark will come to life. Danielle (16:39):It will. Akuyea (16:40):And it does. And it manifests itself. We look at the attitude and the behavior and the character of our young people . And we're saying, Okay we're dealing with some stuff. And I hear me say this, I pray and I commend our teachers. Our teachers have to deal with whole lot of stuff . But when they were looking at the condition of the learning environment in our schools and they understood that they had to train their teachers with having trauma, they have to train the teachers to look at diversity, equity, and inclusion. They have to teach our kids. So when they started introducing social emotional learning, I said that was social, emotional and cultural learning. Why in the world did you take off culture? Culture is an ideology as well. . You bringing in these cultural elements and cultural, what I said, behaviors, It's not all just about, They said, Oh no, we don't wanna, That's a race. I said, No . What culture we have in our schools. The culture that we have in our school is very unhealthy. That's an unhealthy culture. . And what are the cultures that are manifesting in our schools? There's a culture of what I would call hatred going on in our school. . Oh, culture of bullying. They did a whole thing for years of bullying. Well, what culture were you deal. You have a culture of unhealthy behavior and bullying going on in your school. They always get all squeamish and fear all culture that has just to do with race. And I come from a culture and you come from a culture and everyone that steps themselves into those environments come from a culture Danielle (19:17):I love what you're saying because don't get me wrong. I wanna do this work of anti-racism. Yes. I learned from the president of my grad school Dr. Derek McNeil. He said, Anti-racism is enough for us to say, Hey, stop that. Stop the harm. But where we find healing is within our cultures, In our cultures. You got Mexican culture, you got Irish, you got I'm You got African culture, there's a lot of cultures we could be learning from to bring healing. If we change and we try to operate under the social Akuyea (19:54):That's right. Because think it European Western culture here in this United States. Danielle (20:01):And if we operate under the idea that no, it's just a melting pot or we're just whitewashed, we miss the particularities that cultures can bring us that also don't bring harm. They also bring healing. Akuyea (20:14):One of, you know what, I'm glad you said that. It's not a melting pot. The United States is not. One of the things that Bishop Lawrence Ray Robinson taught us is that we are a salad bowl. We come in with distinctive things within that salad. The onion is the onion. It doesn't lose itself in there. The tomato is the tomato. The lettuce is the lettuce. The broccoli, if you wanted to throw it in there, is broccoli. You know what I'm saying? How I'm the peppers are the peppers, the olives are the olives. Very distinctive. But they come together to have a beautiful, wonderful salad . And each of them bring a distinctive flavor to that salad bowl. . Now when we think of a melting, we're talking about what are we a melting pot? What does that even mean? ? We haven't even examined our own terminology and our own languaging. That can be very confusing. Cause a melting pot means everybody gotta assimilate in that pot. Danielle (21:35):. So I think about this and I think it comes back to our young people. They're smart enough to know what we've been doing isn't working and they're also picking up on what we're leading by example in They're doing the same as us or they're trying to do something different. But I think what you and I were talking about, we need some other frameworks here. This is a crisis. Oh Some action steps. Let's have some frameworks for our community because we are not trying to have a school shooting here. Right? Danielle (22:14):We are ripe. And that is very alarming. We hear about all of these school shootings and atrocities that's happening across our nation and all of these things that are popping off and other countries and everything. But honey, this Kitsap County, I have always said, let us do some intervention and prevention because we don't wanna be on the national news for the atrocities that could be committed in our community. And I can say this, we are no better than any other community. And it can happen here. It can happen Anywhere else. . And that's real because guess what the signs are telling , What is popping up and manifesting in our communities is telling and the unhealthy behavior and activities that have been manifesting is really alarming. And we should be paying attention. And our community is only gonna be as healthy as we are and we're not. Speaker 2 (23:33):Right. There's a high level of depression, a high level of anxiety high level of despair across our adult communities in the area. There's a great Danielle (23:48):There's a great amount of actually division in our community. And I don't think that that division is necessarily wrong. Now listen to me because It tells you where you're at If you say, Oh, we're so divided, let's just come together. I have to say, Wait a minute, let's find out why we're divided. Maybe there's some good reasons. And once we know the reasons, then there's opportunity to tell a more true story about Kitsap County. And through the true story, hopefully we can move towards some reconciliation and understanding. Yeah. Yeah. That's what's gonna benefit our youth. So I don't think it's like, Oh, just throw your kids in mental health therapy. No, you need to be doing the work too. Akuyea (24:38):Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you said that because one of the things that I've been just kind of thinking of is, what does that even look like? What does truth and reconciliation even look like? And I said, Well, you can't get there if you're not willing to acknowledge The history, acknowledge the culture that's here in our county that has been prevalent here for hundreds of years. Kensett County is a very racist county. Very. If you're not willing to say that, that's a problem. If you're not willing to look at that history here, cross-bar, even lynchings even, you better understand when we talking about the history, the taking of land, all of that. If we go back just to the late 18 hundreds early In this county, we would better know how to move equity forward in our community. But because we're not willing, Oh, everything's tucked under the rug and things that have happened, Oh, those things have been erased. . I can remember that back when I first got here in the nineties, it was a lot of work going on with Raymond Reyes and with Jean Medina and Theor. There was a lot of racist behavior with a lot of ill behavior a lot of what I would call racist ideologies in our school districts at the North end that was manifest. But it was at the south end too. It was in the Mason counties. It was all over. But we were dealing with it here at the north end, the SaaS drive and kids at school district, the Banbridge Island School District they were coming together cuz they had to deal with all the stuff that was popping off in the schools. . And I can remember they formulated common threads and once Jean Medina retired, it was like all those years of work just went away. Bam. And it came straight back. What did that say to me is that racism was alive and well and has always been alive and well in Kitsap County, . And if we're not intentionally addressing it and calling it out, it will continue to manifest and grow. We have to begin to hold the schools and our community accountable for the behavior that, because otherwise what I see is you just give them a green light. You give these young people a mind that okay behavior that that's acceptable. Oh, I can go to school and say, Oh, because that's the culture that breeds here. Danielle (28:19):Right? I mean, you reminded me of some of the history. I actually have a friend who grew up as a child in this area on La Molo on the waterfront, a Japanese American family. They were removed from their house prime property and they were deported to a internment camp and they lost their land right on the Molo. And now when I drive by that piece of property, it's worth millions of dollars. Akuyea (28:50):All I'm saying, right, The removal. And she's not the only one. The removal of native individuals off their own lands, And not, let me say it like this. In the 1920s, they held one of the largest in Seattle. They held a lot of their meetings right here on Bay Bridge Island on Pleasant Beach Back in 1992. When I got here, they were all up in the uproar talking about why did the clan target island? Well it wasn't until I did research later that I found out the history. They have strongholds here. They have headquarters camps all over Kitsap County, . If you do look at Chuck's report, he works with the Human Rights Council. He has done research about the entire region here and the headquarters and where white supremacists and Klan members and all of them set up their headquarters and kids that . So we need to understand the history that has thrived here for over a hundred years , and understand that that culture is alive and well. in Kitsap County, Danielle (30:46):Cause if we tell a false history, we can't actually heal the wound. Akuyea (30:50):It won't be able to. You gotta know your history, good, bad, and ugly. You got to know your history. And let me say this, there are regions that have deep history. If you go down to Mississippi and Alabama, Oh those are strong holes. , Virginia. And guess what? This northwest got stronghold too. . And we act like, oh no, not here, But that's a false narrative. when they left the south back after slavery, they came here to formulate a new frontier. A new frontier in Oregon and in Seattle in this north, deep roots in this northwest. And if we don't even know that history, we are just, we're fooling ourselves into thinking, Oh no, not here. Not in the northwest. We're not like Alabama. I said, But after the Civil War, they came and set up roots here. Strong roots, You don't think so. You better check your history. Danielle (32:30):And I think we can be lulled to sleep because people will say, Well you got a democratic governor and you got a Democratic senator and you vote unquote blue. But we both know that being blue doesn't mean you're telling something true. Akuyea (32:48):Honey, let me tell you what one of the Klan masters said he was taking off his, when he left, it was a split in Oregon. And when he left Oregon and came to Seattle, he said he was taking off his hood and he was putting on a suit He went and got those jobs, started setting policy, started working in government, law enforcement all over. So don't think just because they don't have the hood that they're still not working in those ideologies. Danielle (33:36):, I mean as you've named in Kitsap County, the idea of manifest destiny has been repeated over and over. And we see it in some of the ways that even the county commissioners have ran and used. I'm thinking of one county commissioner that owns land that therefore wants to create housing resource. And the danger of that. And Danielle (34:05):If you don't think it's entrenched and institutionalized, you better think again. If you don't think it's in our systems, you better think again because those systems were created by those individuals. We have to understand the legacy of that as well. , we've got a lot of work to do. I, I can tell you, I don't know everything, but I'm sure willing to research and learn Oh no. We never move out of hopelessness. We are people of hope. We are as human beings. We are people of hope. We always hope for the better. We hope for the son to shine. We hope that we have a good dinner tonight. We are steeped in hopefulness . And for us to operate out of hopelessness is, we ought not to even perpetuate that Because hope is in our dna. is part of our being. You hope your children will do well. you hope you find a good husband. you hope you find someone that can love you the way you wanna be loved. No, we, that's in our DNA to be hopeful, . And when we start being hopeless or working hopelessness, what happens is we start to decline depression and all these other things begin to come into our lives. And oh, it filled with anxiety. When you remove hope from someone's life, then you know what they spiral to that place that they commit self-harming and harm others as well. So no, we don't wanna move outta hopelessness . And we wanna talk about that need. You have to empower our young people to understand we don't move in hopelessness, I even tell a kid, you hope you get an ice cream. Oh yeah, they want that. Yeah, , we can build hope, we can cultivate that. We can begin to push back on hopelessness Danielle (37:05):And I think the way we do that is, it's this funny thing. If you're from a dominant culture and your culture wins by not telling a true story . And it can feel that if you tell the true story or what's behind the curtain, that you will be plunged into despair. And let me say this, you should grieve and be sad and be angry at that history behind the curtain. That is not bad for you. It is And then that will enable you to take small steps to help your young person with a white body Be able to learn to hold history and hold making change. Akuyea (37:52):And what when we continue to perpetuate lies and perpetuate harmful history, we have to do some self examination going on with us that we wanna keep holding this harmful history in place here. What? What's going on with us as human beings that we would want to perpetuate harm on any individual because they're different than I am. They come from somewhere a different, they have a different culture. They talk different . Why do we always go to that place? Danielle (38:56):I think we can learn so much from what happened in different places in the world and how they subject and no one's done it perfectly. Cuz there's not a perfect way to do it. It's messy. But I think of my friend from Germany who's talked about learning about the Holocaust and her family's involvement in the Nazi regime. Family has worked with their own shame and worked to change their attitude towards the Jewish peoples there in Germany and the fighting of that nationalism. And then I think of the conflict in Rwanda and how yes, now be currently neighbors with someone where hoot season and Tutsis that they were formerly enemies. Blood enemies. So it's not that this hasn't been done, but in both those spaces you see that there's memorials to the harm that was done in Germany. Akuyea (39:53):That's exactly right. That's exactly right. They moved. And that's important. They move their nation into addressing the harms that had been perpetuated and those atrocities that had been done. And they had to move their entire nation and the globe into acknowledging and moving those families into a place of healing And that work that was deep work But we've not done that deep work here. Danielle (40:35):No, we haven't. And then we see our young people in despair and acting out the same fights. And then we have the gall to say, Well what's wrong with you Akuyea (40:51):Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And we've gotta take a pause and look at ourselves because we've gotta examine ourselves in this . We can't point fingers. We have to begin to be accountable for the harms that we have done here in our own country. , we wanna always say, Oh well that was Germany and oh that was Africa. That was over in Asia. What about what happened on this soil? You exterminated the entire indigenous population. . There are tribes we'll never see again. Think about that. And have we even addressed those atrocities, All of the souls that was lost during the trans-Atlantic slave trade that didn't even reach the shores. And if the sea could give up her dead, she could tell a story. But yet we don't wanna step into that harmful history. We don't wanna acknowledge that harmful history. We don't wanna talk about, Oh, don't teach my child how in school this critical race theory thing. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't dig that up. Don't bring that up And I said, Well what's the pushback on telling whole history Danielle (43:02):And I think from a Latino Latinx perspective, there has to be the acknowledgement of the anti-blackness in our culture.Affects our sisters and brothers in the communities of color outside of us. I hate from Latinos. And what's interesting, all those mixtures are part of what makes a Latino Akuyea (43:31):Thank you. That's why I said, Oh, we have to understand we're where we come from our history. Cause that's where the work begins. Danielle (43:41):And then the xenophobia Cultivated. And I think what is important about knowing this history for me, because then I have to say, and I'm Oh, I'm gonna die in shame. I'm some shame. But it's a way for me to say, how do I build connection with you then Akuyea (44:03):I wish Carrie was on here because we work with our equity sisters and we've worked with our Kitsap race and for a whole year we were doing aging our voices and speaking truth together with our Kitsap serves. Those Europeans showing up for racial justice and all of us. And coming together, it was the coming together to be able to talk about some hard things and for them to be able to hear and for us to be able to hear, for us to be able to share our experiences and our voices and be able to put it down and be able for them to say, I'm feeling like Harry would say, Am I in denial here? Is this implicit? Buy it, what's going on? But to do that self, that type of self evaluation and be able to stay in that space when it was very uncomfortable, to deal with some hard history And so those are transformational, engaging opportunities and experiences that we've got to bring to the table. That's real truth and reconciliation, . That's the layer of foundation to be able to move forward and be able to heal and be able to reconcile and talk about how we gonna reconcile it. What will we do? How will we begin to build a healthy way of engaging with one another and build in a relationship. Now the relationship might not be tight. I might not be come away being old lovey dovey fu fu fu. But understanding one another and being able to speak peacefully to one another. being able to say, You know what? I agree or I don't agree. And stay in that space where we can work through some of the challenges that we have and some of the difference of opinions and ideals we have between one another. Danielle (46:29):And I think our kids are just waiting for us to pass these tools to them. My daughter was part of a meeting and part of what happened with my daughter who's Mexican, is that she heard a classmate called the N word and then spoke up about it and then was sharing that story. And then one of the Latino students was talking about , how another Latino student was talking about being told to go across the border. And my daughter shared that the African American student presence said, I don't want that to be like that for you. That doesn't happen to me. I wish I knew so I could say something before they got there faster than I've gotten there. Akuyea (47:13):But you know what? And I can say this, and this is not taking away back to where you came from. This ain't your country. And I'm like, how did we be an enslaved and brought here in chains? You be able to say, you need to go back to where you come from. I didn't come here , many came. But most of the Africans that are enslaved to these Americas, they come here on their own He knows, he knows. And we have to talk. I mean for us to sit here, whether we're black, white, Asian, Pacific Islanders or Dominicans or Puertoricans or we have a understanding of who we are, Where we come from, our ancestral history, history of our parents and their parents and their parents parents, . We carry all of that in our dna We understand in a way that we should be able to have some healthy conversations and not feel bad about who we are. But many of our children have been forced into force assimilation in this nation. , they got to lose who they are in assimilate to be accepted, which very unhealthy they made the native students, you either assimilate or exterminate And the same thing with a lot of the enslaved Africans that they brought here. I don't call myself a African American. I come from an enslaved people brought to a stolen land. An enslaved to this America. I'm African I'm an African woman who's ancestors were stolen and enslaved to these lands. They've gone over, What do you wanna call yourself? I call myself black. I'm black. Danielle (50:18):As we're wrapping up here, how do folks are at listening? It's voting day. We have all the charge of the events. I think people are gonna hear the passion in our voices today. I wonder in Kitsap County, how can folks connect to you? How can I think, I wanna encourage us to have more of these restorative circles. How can they get in touch with you? How can they support what we are trying to do in this community? Akuyea (50:52):Yes. Well, you can always get in contact with the work with Kitsap Erase coalition, with the work that we do in our schools with our multicultural advisory council, with Living life leadership, with the Living Arts Cultural Heritage Project. I mean, I'm accessible in our community. I try to make myself available for our parents, for our students, for community members. We like to work in coalition . We understand that we can work in silos and we can work alone in our agencies and our stuff. But I'm more concerned about the collective collaborative work that it will take all of us to do to transform our communities . We have to be able to learn how to work together with one another as human beings. So yes, if you go on Kitsap e Race coalition, you'll be able to connect with the coalition because we want us to be able to cultivate working together. On. No, you ok girl. . No, we wanna be able to work together and if we got is let's talk about our issues and together and see how we can have a healthy relationship with one another. Danielle (52:35):We are one place, but this is the work we need to be doing across in small conversations like this across our country, which can lead. Akuyea (53:11):That's right, that's right. And hear me say this, we have a unique opportunity to model something not just for our children, our families, our community members, our schools. We have the unique opportunity to model for a nation how to do the work in your own community to bring about change. Danielle (53:37):We do have that opportunity. Akuyea (53:40):And to me, that's inspiring to me. That's what gets my juices up and flowing in the morning.
INTRODUCTION: Let's start withthe basics I am 29 and identify as non-binary, pansexual and demisexual. I amon the spectrum and neurodivergent. I also have mitochondrial disease, ADHD,associated mood disorder, anxiety, depression and more. I am however an openbook on everything. I am deeply engrained in the kink community and alsothe furry community. So I was born and diagnosed with mitochondrialdisease when I was young. Over the course of my life my single mother did herbest but like most parents of those with chronic illnesses she protected me wayto much. When my brothers were born they also were diagnosed with mitochondrialdisease I often joke that my mother hit the lottery 3 boys with mito with notrace of it anywhere else in our family.Having mitochondrial disease has posed manychallenges in my life from school where I had an IEP all the way intoadulthood. I have always known I was different from everyone else and growingup with that knowledge has made life hard for sure. I also decided however whenI was 24 that I was going to stop feeling sorry for myself and not let mycondition define me. It was at this point that I launched Lights Out, BarksOut! Or LOBO! for short. LOBO is a night club event that focuses on beingsex positive, kink positive, body positive, gender inclusive, and creating asafe space for all. When we started we were mostly a party in dc for pups andfurries but we have grown now to be in 8 cities and to include a wide anddiverse group of patrons. LOBO has changed my life and the lives of many otherswho have found their community and safe space through us. We actually as of afew days ago launched our non-profit wing called the LOBO Initiative whichfocuses on LGBTQ+ youth and adults and those with disabilities who need ahelping hand to achieve their dreams. In addition to LOBO I am a full time professionalDJ and producer and I get the opportunity to play all over the world at circuitparties. This however is at great expense to my overall health. Havingthe Mito and being on the road 24/7 working late hours into the 3-5 am timeslot isn't good for someone with a mitochondrial cell deficiency. As I saidthough I made the decision that I wanted to live my life my way and if thatmeans taking a few years off so be it. IN SHORT:- Professional touring DJ and Music Producer aswell as event promoter (including events geared for kinksters, furries, andthose with sensory issues) - Non-binary, Pansexual, Neruodivergant (High Functioning Autism), ADHD, Associated Mood Disorder, GAD-Reporter for Switch the Pitch Soccer Covering the USMNT-Founder and COO of The LOBO Initiative Non-ProfitINCLUDED IN THISEPISODE (But not limited to):· An Explanation Of Mitochondrial Disease· Jake'sTotally Kick Ass Grandma· YAYCHOSEN FAMILY!!!· Jake'sPath To Becoming A DJ· ABreakdown Of LOBO (Lights Out Barks Out)· HowJake Helps Other Rise In The Music Industry· DifficultiesFor Creatives To Get Their Break· NightClub Events For People With Sensory Concerns· PupPlay & Furry Community · KetamineTestimonial CONNECT WITH JAKE: Website: https://jakemaxwellproductions.comMixCloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/live/jakeMaxwell/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LightsOutBarksOutFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DjJakeMaxwellInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lightsoutbarksoutdc/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/djjakemaxwell/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LightsOutDCTwitter: https://twitter.com/DJJakeMaxwell CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'SRECOMMENDATIONS: · PrayAway Documentary (NETFLIX)o https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o TRAILER:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs · OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o https://overviewbible.como https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible · Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ · Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com · Upwork:https://www.upwork.com· FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'SSERVICE ORGANIZATIONS · DisabledAmerican Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org· AmericanLegion: https://www.legion.org · What TheWorld Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED INPODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: · PodMatch is awesome! This applicationstreamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you findshows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that iswhere you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people sothat you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00] You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where wediscuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs andJesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My nameis De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world aswe dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive tohelp you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talkabout. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: JakeDidinsky is the host of the Lobo, which stands for Lights Out Barks Outpodcast. He runs Lobo nightclub events all across the country, and most of all,he lives his life out and proud. Y'all listen and learn about Jake'scontributions to the kink community, and Jake is particularly interested in PupPlay the Fur Community, which is super cute, super awesome.Learn about Jake's path to becoming a [00:01:00]dj. The ways Jake helps others rise in the music industry and Jake's tips forthose living with mitochondrial disease, which is something that Jake has livedwith all his life. That disease cannot be overstated as many people living withit are not expected to live very long. ,but Jake has defied the odds. He is still alive And he is sohere to help everyone in any way that he can. Please listen and fall in love.with Jake, just as I have. Hello, you beautiful souls out there and welcomeback to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I hope you all are doing fan fucking taskas myself and my guest Jake Denki are doing. Jake, how are Jake: you? I'm good.I am just happy to have another day on this earth and, you know living thedream one day at a time De'Vannon: hall.Love you Tabernacle and praise. And so y'all is he Lobo which [00:02:00] stands for Lights Out, Bark Out, I believeLights Out Barks Out, I believe is what that stands for. He runs the Lobopodcast and as well, he is a dj, an event promoter and a music producer, and sohe. Living a high energy life, . And today on this we're gonna be talking abouthis medical history.He has something that's called mitochondrial disease, which I'dnever heard from before. He's gonna be telling us about his low boatinitiative, what his nonprofit does, and what it can do for you. So let's startwith your own history. Like what is it you would like to tell us Jake: about yourself?Yeah. So the first thing people will notice about me, I'm surethey're in this podcast and just listen to me, is I'm severely adhd. So if Ijump around a lot, I apologize. In addition to that, I'm also on the spectrumvery proudly actually. So those are two of like my badges of honor, adhd, verymuch so neuro [00:03:00] divergent.As you mentioned, I have the MET Disease that was diagnosedwhen I was I think four. Both me and my two brothers have it with no othertrace of it. And my family, I like to often joke that my mom had three boys andhit the lottery. All three boys have a condition that it's only passed throughthe mother that she doesn't have.So go figure. You know, that's always often the joke. I am adj, I'm a producer. I run light top, barks out the event all over the country.In addition to our logo initiative, nonprofit as well as I am a soccerjournalist have previously worked in politics. I've kind of been all over theplace you know, run an e-sports team.I, if it exists, I will do it. My whole thing is that basicallyI don't know how much time I have on this earth because people of my conditionsdon't typically live to be my age. And so I'm trying to take full advantage ofit and live as much of a life to the fullest as I. I De'Vannon: admire youand encourage [00:04:00] your, your strengththat you have there, that you keep going.So, so you're saying people with your disease don't usuallylive to your age. How old are you as of today? Jake: I am 29. I willturn 30 in in April. April 16th. Yes. I can do this. April 16th, I will turn30. I will be officially gay dead as the kids say. But I am very excited to bein my thirties and looking forward to that chapter.You De'Vannon: should belooking forward to it. Thirties are wonderful. That's when we really solidifywho we are. So how long do people typically live with this disease if, if 29 isso far out? Jake: So it's one ofthose things where it's, it's really like with the mitochondria disease, it'skind of hard to, to put a number on it, right?Because the way I explain it is mitochondria cells are ineverything in the body, right? So when your mitochondria don't work, That meansnothing in your body works the way it's supposed to. And when you have adeficiency where certain things in your body might work and other things maynot, it's very hard to follow a [00:05:00] pathof how that condition may go.So there's really not one person who has my condition, it hasthe exact same symptoms as anybody else. I often compare it to, if you take abag of a million jelly bean and try to pick out the same one twice, the odds ofdoing that are slim to none. So on the one hand you have people like me who areless affected but could go immediately plummeting like I was in the hospitalthree weeks ago out of the blue.Or you have people on the other end who are very, very, veryseverely affected who don't make it to V3 or four. And there's a whole bunch ofsub conditions. And as we learn more and more about it with geneticconditioning and genetic testing, like we are able to start to pinpoint itmore. But essentially it's one of those things where, It's really kind of acrapshoot because you just don't know.You just, it, it's, I was hospitalized with a minor virus thatspread, that nearly took me out and that was terrifying. And it's somethingthat, you know, it's one of those [00:06:00]things where you just kind of, you never really know with my condition, andthat is something that weighs on you a lot as a.Hmm. De'Vannon: Okay. Sotell us like, you know, scientifically, you said that the, the mitochondriadon't work or there's not enough of 'em. Tell us exactly like your definitionof mitochondrial Jake: disease. Yeah,so with the mitochondrial disease, the scientific definition is essentially ifyou have a deficiency within your mitochondria cell, the mitochondria cellitself, then you have a mitochondrial disease.Within that, there is a much broader spectrum of which one youhave. It can go, It is a very wide ranging spectrum. I think there's like 67,68 different sub conditions of mitochondrial disease. With myself, essentiallythe, the most common thing that almost everyone of a MIT deficiency has is anenergy deficiency, right?So right out the gate mitochondria produced like 96, 90 7% ofthe body's. So if they're not working right, you're already starting off of alow energy. And having a [00:07:00] low energycan lead to other things like having a weak immune system. And then you getinto things, like I said, every single organ, every single part of your bodyhas mitochondrial cells in it.So if your cell mitochondrial cells aren't working the way theyshould be you're gonna have deficiencies in those org organs. So as an example,I had a feeding tube from the time I was like 13 to the time I was 22. I, whenI was 13, 14 years old, I was like 56 pounds and four feet tall. I wasdiagnosed failure to thrive.They had tried everything and I was eating like a machine, butI was metabolizing things so quickly that the food wouldn't like do anything.It would just go right through. Right? So I had a feeding tube, and because ofthat, that's a lot of where my ADHD and my autism comes from. The mitochondriaGIS use, gastritis, gastroparesis, kidney stones since I was 13.All, all this bumped up, all stems traditionally from themitochondria disease as a baseline. Well that's De'Vannon: like,that's like a lot. That's like fucking a lot. Like fuck. [00:08:00] I looked up real quick and I saw thatabout one in 5,000 people both in the United States and globally have thisdisease. Jake: Yeah. And a lotof times it goes undiagnosed because a lot of doctors don't know what it is.So like most doctors, when I say mitochondrial disease, thinkI'm talking about multiple sclerosis, which are two very, very, very, verydifferent conditions. I mean, they couldn't be further apart. One is very muchso brain related and one is very much so body oriented. You know also I'veheard people say, Oh my, that must be muscular dystrophy.That's another one. Closer. But not exactly the same. I havebeen guilty myself of walking into the ER and being like, Yeah, I just havemuscular dystrophy because if I say me disease, I've had doctors look at melike I'm making something up. That has happened to me in the ER multiple times.I went in to actually.But I was admitted to the hospital the first after I saw, thoughtI was just there to get opioids because I was making up something that he'dnever [00:09:00] heard of. And that was a wholewonderful experience where I was like, Dude, no, I'm here because I'm in painand don't wanna be on opioids. Please don't gimme opioids.This is a real thing. You should know this. You're a medicalprofessional. I'm like that. A son of a bitch, , right? Like there's nothingmore infuriating than walking in. Hospital and them being like, Yeah, we don'tthink this is a legitimate thing. This is like, we've never heard of it can, orlike, having you, I don't mind having you explain to a doctor my condition.I usually just walk in with a binder now that I just like handthem. I'm like, Here's everything you need to know about my condition from likemedical specialists in my, in my hoop, Specialize in medo. Just read this andcall them if you have any questions. Because at this point, like I'm so tiredof giving the spiel to these doctors that it's just, it's frustrating andoftentimes they just don't want to hear it.I had to tell the when they were giving me my scope in thehospital to check my stomach. I'm like, You gotta make sure you don't gimmelactic ringers. I will have a reaction. And the nurse looked at me like I hadthree heads because most [00:10:00] patientsdon't tell on theirs that they can't have lactic ringers or even know whatlactic ringers are.So the fact that that was mentioned is just kind of one of thethings that I've been doing for so long. It doesn't phase me anymore. Okay. De'Vannon: And then Iread where you have an had an IEP all the way through adulthood. Yes.Adulthood. And I'm assuming that stands for an individualized education Jake: plan. Yes.So one of the things that is actually very dear and important tomy heart is special education. I intend to run for school board at some pointin my life. I think that people with disabilities need more representation onschool boards from those who have gone through the special education program.I had an iep originally, they wanted to give me a 5 0 4 plan, Ibelieve which is the alternative. But my mother made sure was an IEP cuz shewas a lawyer and knew the system, which is unfortunately something that a lotof kids don't have access to. But that is part of the reason I wanna getinvolved.We'll come back around to that. But I was on an iep originallythey wanted to hold me back in third grade cuz I couldn't write [00:11:00] cursive and that was a whole thing. Theygave me a bunch of. They came back and they said we can't hold this kid back.He's reading at a college level. He's writing at a college level.We should actually skip him ahead of grade. And that was like acomplete whirlwind. So yeah, but the IEP was literally one of the things thathelped me get through school. I actually had to go to three to three differenthigh schools before they finally figured out a system that worked for me.When I was at my first high school, I was getting like D's andF's, but they couldn't figure out why, because I was getting perfect scores onthe state test in Virginia and I was getting like, perfect scores on all myexams. And the reason was I wasn't doing the homework cuz it bored me. Itwasn't challenging enough.And so I just was like, I'm not gonna do it. Like it doesn't, Idon't get anything from this. So I would just like do the exams and then notbother up the homework cuz I knew most of the material. Then they moved me to asecond school where I had a teacher tell me that I couldn't go on a field tripwith my journalism class because she didn't wanna be [00:12:00]responsible for a medical condition.Because she didn't think I could ride the metro for an hourwith kidney stones, which was a whole thing. And my mom said, Uhuh, we're notdoing this. Like we're gonna, we're gonna find a different place cuz this isnot like, acceptable. And then finally I arrived at Falls Church High School inVirginia which is where I ended up graduating from and will always have aspecial place in my heart, which is why I continue to go back there and visitand get back to the school.But there they kind of realized that they had to create almostthis alternative like, plan to help me, I guess, or I guess make it moreaccessible for me, right? Because what ended up happening was I was doing allthese classes and I was, I was getting, like I said, perfect scores and I waseventually they came up with the quantity or quality versus quantity.Which meant that if I could prove that I was getting thematerial, it wasn't how much work I was doing versus the qual, the quality ofthe work I was doing. So at one point [00:13:00]during my senior year, we ended up with the situation because I started inMaryland that I had to take world history. I, and in Virginia, that is afreshman class in Maryland, that is a senior class.I at that point did not want to spend an entire school yearsurrounded by freshmen. Not that I had any problem with it, it was just thatfor me, with being on the spectrum of a bunch of other issues, I was having areally hard time connecting with the freshmen, being older. And also I hadalways had a hard time kind of in school connecting with people my own age.I often spent most of my lunch periods hanging out with thestaff and teachers. So they allowed me to spend that period with my teacherfrom the previous year in us. And, you know, helping him with grading papersand teaching US history and whatever world history had a test, I would takethat test and I would pass it.And that was kind of how they allowed me to navigate my senioryear. Most schools wouldn't have been okay with that, but in this situation,they realized [00:14:00] that if they weregonna fail me because of this, it would've, it would've made no sense becauseat the end of the year, I got a perfect score on the state test, which issomething that should be eliminated altogether because state testing is a jokeand a massive fraud.And realistically, is it the way we should be measuringpeople's success? But that's a whole nother story. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Wow. Thankyou for going into such great detail with that. I appreciate it because thoseare the sort of the, that's the sort of information that helps people. So in myresearch of you, I, I came across where you felt like your mom protected youway too much because of this chronic illness.I got the sense that. Maybe other parents do the same sort ofmaybe like overprotection thing. So I wanna know like what advice you wouldgive both to young people who have this disease and also to the parents ofyoung people who have this Jake: disease. Yeah.So I think first and foremost I should acknowledge that [00:15:00] while my mom and I don't have the world's bestrelationship, I acknowledge that she did the best that she could, right?She had three boys, all of a chronic illness that she had noexperience with as a single mother. And I respect the hell out of the fact thatshe did the best that she could in the circumstances that she could. And welived a relatively comfortable life growing up. And I will always have thatrespect for her, right?That that's never gonna go anywhere regardless of how strainedour relationship is. That being said, I think that it's important not just forparents of people with mito, but for parents. I'll start their parents,especially of kids with chronic illnesses, to understand that. You know, at acertain point in time, you're not gonna be there for your child anymore, right?Like, at a certain point in time, your child's gonna have to goout into the world in theory and figure it out on their own. And if you protectthem to a point where they get there and they're so used to people doing thingsfor them that they don't know how to handle themselves, it can create massiveroadblocks and relearning experiences that [00:16:00]put them behind the eight fall.Like I had never borrowed taxes previously up until a coupleyears ago because I had always been claimed as a dependent, and then all of asudden I wasn't a dependent and I had no idea how to do it. And it was likeincredibly overwhelming and incredibly alarming for me. And that was somethingthat I legitimately had to teach myself because I just had never even occurredto me.I think that the, the instinct just for parents in general isto protect, right? Because this is, this is someone, this is your child, right?Like you want the best for them, and you're afraid sometimes to take your handsoff the wheel. . But I think that you have to trust and find the balance ofletting your kid going, go out and fail and learn from that experience.But also being there to pick them back up when they do. Becausewhat I'm not saying to do is just push 'em out the nest and say, Okay, figureit out. But I'm also not saying like, to protect them to a point where theyhave no idea and think the world is this perfectly welcoming place to peoplewith disabilities because the reality is the world is really hard for peoplewith [00:17:00] disabilities.It just is. It is not a nice world out there at times. Andthat's something that I think a lot of kids with chronic illnesses, when theybecome into adulthood, find out the hard way. As for children and those teens,especially young adults going through this trying to find their independenceand expressed that they can do things, You know, the way I finally got my momto get it was just by demonstrating that I was capable of doing things.And eventually, if she really was adamantly against somethingand I really thought I could do it, I would just do it. And. At the end of theday, it may have led to some strain, but ultimately in the end, she understoodafterwards that I was just trying to show that I could, I could complete what Iwas trying to set my mind to.You know, she was pretty adamant against me becoming a DJbecause she didn't think it would be good for me with my medical condition. Andso because of that and because of my dad previously being a DJ and [00:18:00] thinking it would be a really hard worldto navigate for someone on the spectrum and all these other things, she did notwant to get me DJ equipment when I was younger.So I went on and bought my own. And then three years later shecame to see me play. She was like, Wow, you're really good at this. Like, youshould be doing this professionally. I'm like, I am, should. I've been tryingto tell you for the last three years is that I, I'm good at what I do and I'mokay with the trade off that it affects me medically because I make a bunch of peoplehappy and that's okay with me.But I think that not everybody has the ability to advocate likethat, Right? So, I would just say if you are a, a teen or a young adult outthere and you're saying, Man, I really wish my mom or my dad would like justget, get this point through their head. Just sit them down and be like, Look,at a certain point, there's gonna come a time when you just can't protect meanymore and I need to know how to navigate the world.And I think having that come to Jesus moment with them willreally, really help [00:19:00] open their eyes.So De'Vannon: the, thestrain that you spoke of between you and your mother was, is that the primaryreason there was strain because, you know, you were getting away from hercontrol and it sounds like she wanted what she thought was best and you had adifferent point of view and maybe she took that personally.Is that what, Was there something else that strange y'all evenfurther? Jake: I think a lotof it came down to the fact that she ultimately, Wanted to, wanted what wasbest for me in her eyes. And I wanted what was best for me in my eyes. And Iwas the oldest, right? I was her first born. So automatically she's gonna bethe most protective because she hadn't done it before.And traditionally parents who have multiple children, the firstborn is often told like, No, no, no. Like very protected. But then the secondand third or however many kids come after are often allowed to do things thatthe first born may not have been allowed to. Like I wanted to play in middleschool.I was told no, but my brothers both joined band in middleschool. And unfortunately growing up, it's [00:20:00]not as big of an issue now, but growing up there was a lot of resentment therebecause, well, why are you allowing my brothers to do the things you told me Icouldn't? But as I grow older, I kind of understand and try to piece togetherthose decisions and it starts to make more sense to me.But in the moment it created a lot of heat and strife. But alot of it, I think, did come down to the fact that yes, she. Wanted a lot ofcontrol, wanted to kind of in her mind, this is what's best. You know, I knowwhat's best, like I've done it. And a lot of it came down to me feeling like Iwas never quite good enough to live up to her expectations.And that kind of created a lot of headbutting where you know,being on the spectrum, a lot of these ideas kind of started fill in my head andwhether they were true or not, that's what became the image of my mother in mymind. Now we have come a long way since then. She is very supportive of mycareer now.She is very supportive of me now. She really does the best thatshe can, but as my fiance says, I think that she [00:21:00]is at the point where she just wants to be my, like, best friend and sometimesnot as much of like that's a point of mother figure, if that makes sense. WhichDe'Vannon: one wouldyou prefer? The best Jake: mother, or doyou want both?I mean, every kid wants to have that relationship with theirmother, Right? Where it was like you know, where. It's mom, right? Like I cancall mom and have her do cartwheels because I'm playing in New York City like Iwas last week. And you know, the reaction I got was, yeah, that's kind of cool.Okay. As opposed to like this overwhelming beaming of pride.For me that was a very big moment. And so I think there'salways a part of me that will want that relationship. But to understand thatyou have to go back to the relationship I had with her mother, my grandmother,which was, she was my best friend. She was absolutely, without a doubt theperson I was closest to on this earth.I came out to her first when I was like 16 and she's like,Yeah, okay, let me take you to the sex shop. Like let me help you. [00:22:00] Like if you need a place to, you know, doextracurriculars with people that's not your house, that's fine. You can do ithere. Like Grandma was the shit, like grandma used to have gay parties at herhouse all the time when she was younger.Grandma used to have all the kids in her neighborhood, but mymom and my uncle were younger, come over and party in her basement so that ifthey wanted to do drugs or something, they could do it under the supervision ofa, of a adult. And if they, something happened, she would rather to thehospital and all the parents in the neighborhood were fine with this cuz they'drather them be doing it under the supervision of somebody than doing it out onthe streets.And so these underground parties would just happen at mygrandma's house back, back in the day. And so she was literally everything Iaspired to be. She would give you the shirt off her back. I mean I very much soam my grandmother's child. And I think a lot of that bugs my mother in a waythat we are not as close as I was with, with my grandmother.But that was just because, you know, [00:23:00]grandmother, we call her, my mom and I were just incredibly close. We went toflyers games since I was a kid. We would talk sports. We often joked about theeulogies we would give at each other's funeral because that's how close wewere. If whichever one of us passed away first, like we had a very, very strongdynamic.She would not date somebody without my approval. Like it wasjust, she was like, Okay, like I, she's like, I need you to meet my grandsonand if he doesn't like you, then like, it's not gonna work. Like we were justthat close. It was that kind of a strong bond that some people just couldn'tunderstand.And I truly believe that even though she's no longer here in inperson, she's always with me in spirit. In fact, I always like to tell the. Andwhen she passed away, everybody assumed I would be devastated. I figured I'd bedevastated. But I went to the hospital, she just come outta surgery. She was ina coma, and I, I held her hand and I was like, Listen, like you've been througha lot in your life, girl.Like, you know, it, it's, it's okay. Like you don't gotta keepbiting this if you don't want to. Like, I will be okay. You will, you will be [00:24:00] okay. Like, I trust, I trust that we'regonna be fine, but if you feel like it's your time to go, then you know I'll beokay. And she squeezed my hand and I saw a tear come down her eye and I waslike, Okay.I knew that that's what we were doing. And I looked at her andI said, Just wait till I get back to your house before, before like anythinghappens because I can't be in the hospital. If you passed away, I will, I willhave a breakdown. And I drove back to her house and then I got the call that asI walked in the door, she had passed away.And then that. I had a dream where I, where she was there andwe spoke and we just spoke for hours and hours and hours. And she explainedlike, Look, I just want you to keep living your life. I don't want you toderail everything. Like, you know, this is what I need from you is to not stopliving because I'm never gonna not be there.I'll always be watching you. And then I was fine the next dayand I went about my life. Yeah, I was, I video1709663557: was De'Vannon: gonna askyou if you ever see her in your dreams because, you know, I see my grandmotherand my dreams, particularly in times of [00:25:00]stress and trouble and I had that strong relationship with my grandmother too.She, when I was a little crossdresser, running around at aboutfour or five years old in my, in an oversized shirt, one of my mom's belt andmy mom's little two inch pumps. You know, Granny would let me do that and she'dkeep a lookout in case my parents came back and give the signals I can get backin my boy clothes.And so, I'm here for the Grannys who watch out for the littlegay grandkids running around when the parents are too fucking stiff to get withthe fucking program. So you, it's just the most mindboggling thing. You know,grannys are born like the twenties and thirties and you would think people bornmore recently would be the more open minded ones, but they're just not.And so, so then your siblings don't necessarily have thisstrained relationship with your mom because she was more lenient on Jake: them. Yeah. Somy siblings actually both live out in California with my mother currently. I donot, I live about as geographically far away as I can [00:26:00]be on the East Coast.And you know, I think that, yeah, there, there, there's somestrain there, but not nearly as much as on that as we have. I actually don'thave the world's greatest relationship with my brothers either. In a lot ofways I explain that my brothers are very much like my mother. They're very typeA, they're very materialistic.Which is not, you know, you know, a bad thing in itself. Ifthat's what they are, that's what they are. Whereas I'm very much like mygrandmother, which is very type C. There is more than one right way to dosomething. Like if there's a start line and the finish line, how you get theredoesn't matter as long as you get there.My mother and my brothers, there's a start line and the finishline is really only one correct way to get to the finish line is how I kind oflike describe it. You know, to me my life has been a, a struggling journey,right? Like it's been, get knocked down, climb back up, get back down, climbback up. But the point is I always get back up and manage to get across thefinish line.Whereas, you know, in I think my mother and my brother's eyes,it's get back, get knocked down, but then go this way [00:27:00]as opposed to, you know, I'm like, you know, dude, a bunch of circles fall downa bunch of times, but I got there. But yeah, my brothers and I are starting todevelop a better relationship now.It. Great. I'm one of them is better than the other. They'reactually twins. So you know, there was always that to contend with. But yeah,I, I really am actually not close with a lot of people in my biological family.I do have a very close chosen family which, you know, we, in this community,very much so value, but as far as my biological family, I'm very close with mybiological father, but like not anybody else.De'Vannon: I am herefor all of the chosen family. Fuck this blood relative Jake: trauma andfamily . De'Vannon: The bloodrelatives can be very, very bad for your health. Y'all pick you a betterfamily. Do not have to contend with them. Blood relatives. Congratulations on the engagement. I heard you mentionedfiance. Jake: So actually funstory about that.[00:28:00] We actually had todo it twice. The first time I decided to do it at a pride party at Lobo. Wewere planning to do it the following month, but my mom actually got very upsetthat we didn't call and get her permission to get engaged and that she wasn'tthere. So she flew in the following month to Lobo and we did it all again sothat she could be a part of it.That is literally what we're dealing with which is not a badthing in itself. I get that she wanted to feel like she was involved, and I getthat it was a big deal for her. Her oldest was getting engaged. She's verytraditionalist in that way. I, you know, to me, I didn't really think it was abig deal in 2022 to have to call and be like, Hey, I'm getting engaged, youknow?But. I guess she felt she should have been informed and that'sfine. You know, And her, when she was my age, that was kind of the way it was.You know, Talk to your mother, talk to your father. Me. I'm like, Screw it. I'mjust gonna do this. Like, it was an auto whim decision at four in the morning.So like, you know yeah.But she did fly in the following month and we did it all againat Lobo in front of 400 people. Yeah. I mean, De'Vannon: [00:29:00] that's cute and all, but you lost me atpermission. Jake: Yeah, yeah. Itwas, it was a choice. It was a. De'Vannon: No, wedon't. We don't need nobody's permission to do the fucks we want to do. Butsee, that's why I'm always preaching for people to get over this addiction tofamily because inherent in blood family is a lot of control and a lot ofassuming that this person in the family or that person in the family cannot dothis unless we all agree it's good or something, some kind of bullshit likethat, that I tuned out years ago.I was like, Oh, hell no. . I observed my family. I'm like, Youknow what? All y'all's fucked up each and every fucking last one of y'all don'treally know how to live your damn life, so you not about to try to tell me howto live mine. Even though I am the youngest child. I got better sense than mostpeople in my family, if not them all.you know? So, mm. There there'll be no permission beinggranted. None of [00:30:00] this. I never cameout. I was like, If y'all can't figure it out, then shame on you. I'm doing myfucking life. Deal with it. . I mean, that's it myself Jake: to you bitches.That that's it. Like that, that's a hundred percent. It's, there's a ton ofcontrol.That's why I distanced myself from a lot of them. De'Vannon: Yeah. So Ijust wanted to point out we've been using the word chronic with this disease,y'all. And so what that means is that it's not like, and the opposite of thatis acute, meaning that it would go away over time or through treatment. Chronicmeans that, in this particular case, that there's really no like set cure forthe mitochondrial diseases.Well, so what they were treated with is like vitamins, physicaltherapy, I mean, not any kind of therapy to help the patient feel better, tohave a more comfortable life. They'll treat the symptom as they come up withvarious medications and stuff like that. But like with hiv, which is what, youknow, I have a history of.There's no way to like just say get rid of it. You manage thesymptoms and then you just promote an overall healthy [00:31:00]life. So when we say chronic, that's what we mean exactly. And so his websitey'all is jake maxwell productions.com. Of course that will go in the show notesand then the social media and all of that will be there too.So I bring up the website because this, I want you to tellpeople about that website and about how it all got started. I read where whenyou were 24 that you decided that you were gonna stop feeling sorry foryourself and stop letting your condition define you. So I want you to talk tome about this turning point that happened when you were 24.I want to hear about how your mind was before, cuz it soundslike you were in some. Pity party or a state of low self-esteem or feelingsorry for yourself or something like that, which can happen to us when we getsick or, or you know, we, or when we're fighting these uphill battles. So talkto me your mindset before you have this revelation at 24 and then Jake: after.Yeah. So, you know, [00:32:00]to understand that you kind of gotta go back to like when I was 18, it's alittle bit of a journey, right? So I had all these aspirations as a kid of allthe things I would be doing with my life. And, you know, a lot of them I hadachieved, like, I worked, started working in politics when I was 16.I was on a presidential campaign, I was on a senate campaign, Iwas on a congressional campaign. Like I had done all this stuff by the time Iwas 22. In fact, in 2016 I worked as a presidential and was like the youngestone as a field director in Virginia. So without a college degree. So I had, Ihad like accomplished that I did what I wanted to do on that front.And then, you know, 2016 happened and the whole world justkinda. Got flipped upside down. And I was not happy with the state of the worldand I was unhappy with where I was at with my life. I was going through thissituation where my grandmother had just passed away. And even though I was notreally affected by it as much as I was there, there was some lingering effects,obviously from losing that [00:33:00] strongconnection that I had.And I kind of, you know, was doing this DJ thing. I had, youknow, actually I've been in a kink relationship, not a, not a dating one, but akink one that it just ended and it ended very, very, very badly. And I was justlike, you know, I'm unhappy. I have this condition that's gonna kill me. Like Ihave, this is what was going through my mind, not currently, but at this timeit was like, I have this condition that's gonna kill me.I'm running into a wall. Like I'm, I don't know how to set pathforward. I haven't gone to college. Like, what, what am I doing? Like, what'sthe point? And. Eventually, like literally I was just lying in bed and one ofmy other friends called me and invited me out to a kink club, ironically, whichis how this story starts.And I was like, I wasn't gonna go, but he didn't really give mea choice. He said, You're coming or we're gonna come pick you up and take youregardless. So it's like, all right, I'll go, you know, what have I got tolose? And I went and at this party I met someone named David Merrill. [00:34:00] And this person was the catalyst for my DJcareer.Over time me and who would eventually become my chosen brother,best friend, and all around, like biggest support for me in my life. Corey, akaPhoenix. He, we would do kink demos at David's party. Corey would like flog me,right? And that, that's how my career started. And then one day I went to Davidwas like, David, can I like just dj?I was like, The DJ's not here. Do you mind if. Just try. And hewas like, Yeah, I mean, you know, it can't be any worse than we've ever had, sogo for it. And I went up there and I'm jamming and I'm having the time of mylife and I get done and I'm like, Man, that was awesome. And he's like, No, no,it wasn't, but you have potential and I can see it in you and I can teach youbecause you have something I can't teach, which is drive.You have drive and determination and I think you can get thereif you get someone in your corner to give you the support and the skills thatyou need. And I'm gonna do that for you. So sure enough, every day for like ayear, I'd go over to David's house and [00:35:00]I'd work on DJing and he'd show me things. And then eventually he startedbooking me at his parties.And then the next thing you know, I'm doing more of his events,not just the one. We moved to another event at another event, and I'm startingto get a little bit of a following, and then we kind of hit the turning pointmoment for me, which is when I get reached out to by a bigger promot. and they'relike, We would really like to book you.We think you're great. We think you're talented, but we don'tlike that you're non-binary and we don't like that. You don't really look likewhat a traditional circuit party DJ should look like. Mm-hmm. because I don'treally have the AB and I'm not like ripped and I'm not, all these other thingsthat traditional circuit parties, DJs at that time looked like and I'm like,Excuse the fuck outta me.The hell does that mean? And they were just like, Well, youknow, we just don't think you'll like, react well of the, probably will connectwith you like some of our other DJs. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. Holding my beer.So I I looked at Corey and, and my friend piloted time and we start, we startedLobo and [00:36:00] that that's what it was.We, we basically started it because we wanted a safe space foreverybody else who wasn't welcome at these, these circuit parties. So wedescribe Lobo really as like a diverse circuit party. You're, you're not gonnawalk in the LOBO and see a bunch of cookie cutter gs, you're gonna see theeverybody else.And that's what we describe it as. You're gonna see the bears,the kinks stirs, the pups, the furries, you know, your big guys, your littleguys. Everything in between except for that traditional, you know, Abercrombieand Fit case, so to speak is how I describe it. And they come too, but in thiscase, they're not the majority.They're in the minority. And the looks on their faces when theywalk in is what makes it like just that much more special because they, it, itdawns that this is a party for everyone and always will be. But that turningpoint really for me, essentially be, it happened on a whim because I was justlike, you know, I need to stop trying to be what my mother wants.I have to stop trying to be what everybody else wants me to be.And if I really. [00:37:00] To be happy andDJing makes me happy. Why not? Like I am not beholden to anybody else'sexpectations of me. I am not beholden to anybody else's what they want me tobe. I basically was like, this is my life. And yeah, I may have all theseconditions and whatever, and this, that, and the other, but you know what?There are people far worse off in the world than me who aredoing far greater things. And sure, I could sit around and be sorry for myselfand sit in my room and just cry and do all these things, or I can go out and dosomething about it. And by doing something about it, it has now gotten to thepoint where we could start the nonprofit, where we can get back to others whomay need that quote unquote kick in the butt supporting shoulder to get themgoing.Going De'Vannon: Talk tome. I commend your ambition here and for fighting to maintain a positiveattitude, making decisions. I appreciate the mentor who helped to mentor youand groom you into DJing. So talk to me about how you give back. You mentionedlike you go back to your high [00:38:00] schoolfrom time to time to give out.I know Lobo has some sort of youth initiative. So tell me aboutall the ways that you give back. Jake: Yeah, so thefirst and easiest way to say how Lobo gives back is Lobo has a policy that we willnever price anybody out of a party. If you can't afford to come to our party,you just shoot us a message saying, Hey, I need a ticket.And we give you a ticket. It's a no question to ask policy,like we will never tell somebody that you cannot come to a community event. Andthe reason for that is no one should be told, Oh, well, we know how much thismeans to you and we know that you have friends in your community here, butsorry, if you can't afford the $15, you just can't come.It is a literally no question to ask policy. We will give you aticket. Now, if that starts happening every single month, we may have a talk,but essentially the way it is is we buy a block of tickets every month as Loboto just give out the people. We don't ask why we don't ask the policy. I need aticket done.Here you go. Like, that's it. And again, the main reason forthat is because we know the impact this has on people. We made that decision atday one that we were never gonna be the party that was so full of itself that wewere gonna tell people if you can't afford to go too, too [00:39:00] bad. So that's, that's the first thing.And that happens in every city we go to all across the country.At every party we do that is like a non-negotiable. So do we lose money on itsometimes, But it's worth it for us because Community first, that's what ourevents always been about. Recently we also launched the nonprofit which is theLOBO initiative.I believe we officially now have finally, finally gotten ourletter from the irs. I have to check. It's supposedly in the mail, but it'staken them like eight months to officially get back to us cuz they were sobacklogged. But that's why we've been like more quiet about it saying that it'sbeen approved.And so we're starting to roll it out. And the main, the mainfocus of the non-profit essentially is like to focus on LGBTQ specificallyyouth. Adults and adolescents and with a key focus on those with disabilitieswho wanna chase their dreams, but just don't have the financial support or theemotional support to get there.The easiest way I describe it is, you know, one of our [00:40:00] programs is a mentorship scholarshipprogram. You tell us I wanna be a dj, we buy you equipment and give you amentor in that field who will help you. And it's too pronged for this reason.One, getting the equipment is great, but you also need someone to help opendoors for you, right?Because that's how all fields work. It's all aboutcommunication and networking, and you can be really, really talented, but ifyou don't have somebody to sometimes help get you in, that can be half thebattle. If you don't have someone you can call like, Hey, I just got offeredthis opportunity, do you think it's legitimate?That can be a huge thing. So we pair you with a mentor to helpteach you your craft, but then also continually be there to help you along yourjourney. And that's one, when we explain it, what we don't do is give out cashvalue. We give out equipment, we give out classes, we give out basic thingsthat can help people go after their dreams.Because that was the big thing for me. Had I had that supportearlier, who knows where I would be now. Wow. De'Vannon: There wasa time that I wanted to become a DJ and I did go and research it. I would go tolike the Guitar [00:41:00] Center and justdifferent places and try to Google it and find it out. But it is so you, it isnot as simple as it, you know, getting turntables or now, you know, like aMacBook, you know, and putting an app on it and then just going, Hey, I'm gonnathrow a party , you know?You know, it was so, it was so, such a struggle to figure outwhere the fuck do I get started? Okay. So I get the equipment, I startpracticing at home, then where do I go? Do I go knock on doors? You know? Youknow. So the fact that you streamlined this process and. And, and to at leastgive people a chance and they're gonna be those who start, who won't keep downthe path.But at least they could say that, you know, they were given anopportunity, right? In being willing to open doors or people in the industry,you're trying to give them what you got, which is somebody to help to vouch foryou. You know, I, you know, when you started DJing, I wish to the heavens, youknow, to God that we had that in every industry, you know, because there is somuch good talent out there, but it's [00:42:00]so much of it to this day.It's about who you know is like that in the author industry.You know, I'm a good writer, you know, but, you know, and I have a lot of goodstories to tell, but trying to get it out there is difficult because there's nolike, you know, mentor for, you know, for me to do that. So I appreciate thefuck outta that.Oh my God. Like, who knows? Maybe I'll, I'll go to DC orsomething and join your initiative and become a DJ at Laugh . Jake: So, so one ofthe cool things about it is we actually have mentors in all fields. We havepeople who work in the author industry. We have people who are writers,artists, DJs. Like I use DJ as the example, cause that's the easiest way tosay, but we, some of 'em reaches out to us like, Hey, I wanna be a film adirector.We have film editors who do YouTube, who are big YouTube starsand all these other things who will help, you know, teach them and we'll sendthem a camera and we'll be like, Hey, you know, here you go. Here's who youreach out to, you know, talk to them. Our whole thing is basically, if you tellus what you wanna do, we will find somebody who can help you and get you whatyou need.It's, it's really [00:43:00]that simple. And that is why, you know, we believe that it's so important tohave this because it's one of those things where you. There are so many people,like you said, there's so many fields who are ridiculously freaking talented atwhat they do, but they just don't have the monetary support, they don't havethe equipment support, they don't have the mentor to open doors.And so because of that, they fall through the cracks. And thatis what we want to pick up the pieces in because especially in the disabilitycommunity, but across the LGBTQ and really all communities in general, youknow, people slip through the cracks and that's when we have this opportunitywhere we miss so many great, talented people.Hallelujah. Jesus. De'Vannon: It does.Well then we'll talk after the show about what you might or might not do forme. You know, I can't lose anything by asking you know, so I don't like howthey were trying to change you. You know, that [00:44:00]opposition you met for being who? Are, you know, because the only reason that,that, that production company would've reached out to you and told you all ofthis would've been because they had in mind the way that they could change youand make you into a different person.You know? Other than that, there's no reason to reach out andbe like, We love everything about you except for who you actually are. Sochange that and then, you know, we could make this work. I come up against thatin the writing industry because I write very like real, you know, if we'retalking about getting fucked in the ass and come spraying the place andshooting up meth and blood on the ceiling, and then that's what the fuck we'regonna say.We're not, there's no other way to say it cuz of what happenedhappened. But a lot of people are very conservative who hold a lot of power ina lot of different industries, especially in the music industry and it peoplewho, who create very polarizing art, you know? You know, it sucks when yourwork lands on the desk of that conservative bitch, you know, you know, in thepublishing house or in the, you know, be it music [00:45:00]or you know, literary or whatever.Because that person, I've seen them take like an adversereaction to work, whereas had had more liberal person gotten ahold of it, theywould've gotten a point as opposed to clutching their pearls and shit andcutting off their circulation. Now they can't fucking think straight, you know,about what's in front of 'em.So what cities is low in, because when I looked it up, onething, you know, like just what cities? I know you're at least in dc, Columbus,Ohio, Virginia Beach, Norfolk area, Jake: where else?Yeah, so our website is a little bit behind because we're growing much quickerthan one person could keep up of it. But currently we are in Norfolk, VirginiaBeach.That's one. Columbus, DC, Pittsburgh, New York with, have acouple other cities on the, on the way. In addition to some other ones thatwe'll be returning to, but those are the big ones that we're at regularly. Wealso have Richmond coming soon. [00:46:00] Inaddition to Lobo the party, we also have Lobo, the drag show slash drag brunch,which is in New York, Norfolk, and DC as well.Which we do to elevate Queens who just wanna get experience andalso those who are incredibly talented. So we do that. And those, that's wherewe are currently. I can't say some of the other cities we haven't announcedofficially yet, but we do have some more in the wings coming soon. De'Vannon: Okay. I'mtaking a note on that logo drag show.I'll be in New York in November. Jake: Well, weshould, we should talk, we should talk De'Vannon: just thefirst in November, so we'll see. What's going on for sure. So, so the circuitparties, you know, they're only like, The prices I saw were like 10, $15.That's not super expensive to begin with. For what a circuit party could cost.Yeah. . So I thought the pricing was very, very humble and I'mso pleased to hear that you're really going out of your way to reach [00:47:00] for PE people. Do you have like a story ofsomeone who came, came to one of your events or one of your locations? Like abefore I get before and after story. Jake: Oh yeah, I gotplenty.We get, we get messages from people all the time who haveliterally said that our event has changed their life. And that's one of thethings that actually I'm gonna pull one up right now. Sorry. I gotta find itcuz there's one I do like to tell like at the very onset because it was someaningful.That's fine. While De'Vannon: you'relooking for that, I have another question. So in all of these cities, do youhave like an office? Do you have people who work for your organization? Andthen congratulations on officially becoming a nonprofit. Yes. So, so do youhave a physical location? Cuz these parties don't happen like, say every Jake: weekend.So the easiest way to explain it is Lobo, the party is forprofit and the LOBO initiative [00:48:00] isnon-profit. Okay. So Lobo the party, which is where we are in multiple citiesofficially, we don't have offices, but we do have people on the ground in allthose cities who, and we have telegram chats for every city we're in.So people can come and join and find that sets of community forthe city that they're, they're going to. So there's a Lobo Columbus chat, aLobo DC chat, a Lobo Norfolk chat. And these are like just telegrams andmessages that pups use. And what it is, is it's just another way to create thesets of community where people can just kind of come and express themselves.We also have the one community shared for Lobo as all citiesshare it. It is the Lobo Horny Jail chat. You can probably figure out what happenedin that chat. But that is because we don't believe in people being restrictedand expressing themselves. We've never been about that. Like, go on, expressyourself, like, you know, do your thing.So that is a chat for all the cities to come and do theirextracurricular horny stuff with. But that one's always fun to just kind of popin and see what's going on. But yes, we do have people and admins and all those[00:49:00] chats. We also have a communitydiscord where people can go. So that is how we connect with everybody.I'm always reachable. That's partly why I'm so tired is becauseI respond to messages like 24 7. But yeah. One of the things we tell people iswhen we go to a city, we don't just wanna be the party that comes and takesyour money and leaves until we come back. We are all about celebrating andlaying down community roots.And a lot of these cities already have community organizationsoutside of us. So we work with them, with those local organizations to helpthem get funding or whatever we can do. To help elevate their events because wedon't need to have a monopoly on this type of an event that doesn't helpanybody. If they're succeeding, we're succeeding, and that's what we're allabout.De'Vannon: Okay.That's pretty kick ass. So basically since you have a network of people canjust, they do like meetups and stuff like that, they can still physically reachout and text somebody in these various cities if need be. So can find all ofthis at the Jake: website. [00:50:00] All the telegram chats are on the website.We also have a general announcement channel on Telegram, whichhas all this info. We put it out on twitterer regularly and rotation how tojoin the chats. But basically on all of our socials, you can usually find yourway to whatever chat you're looking for. Or if you have the wrong end up in thewrong chat, someone will immediately get you to the right oneBut oftentimes what we see is that people join all the LOBOchats because they just want to, even if they're not anywhere near that city.Oh, how fun. Okay. Do you have that before? I do. So one of the messages we gota couple actually January of this year was from a friend of mine who's becomevery close to me, and the message kind of went something like this.It says real talk. I have to say straight to you. I can't tellyou how grateful I am for Lobo. I only found out about it around a month ago,and it became genuinely one of the best months of my life, arguably the best.I've had a very long history of depression and loneliness. I wasn't exactlypopular in school growing up, being a nerdy, painfully shy, weird kid, and I [00:51:00] was really nose diving this year.Then I ended up being introduced to this community and havedone a total 180 as far as my mental health goes. For the first time in mylife, I felt like I've had a true friend group, and I can't describe howamazing that felt. Put it this way, the day after the December lo, I feltreally strange, and it took a few hours into that day to realize that thatstrange feeling was because it was the first time and I couldn't begin to guesshow long that I woke up about a black cloud on my mind.The sun seemed brighter, My vision was. The world just felt somuch more alive to me as I've reflected on my past what's happened for me, thispath, I realize how much I was doing mentally in 2021, and the conscious of howamazing this December's been like for me, I've come to swear, Lobo has prettymuch saved my life.It was getting that bad for me. I really don't think I couldthank you enough for making Lobo a thing. De'Vannon: Well, I'mhere for all of that. Let me go on ahead and give you a clap and Jake: yes, , and youget messages like that and just like it hits you so deep. Like, I mean, I crysometimes when I get messages like this [00:52:00]because one of the things that is sometimes hard for me to realize is thatwe've created something and I, I often get credited for, but it's me and myentire team and my co-owner and best friend and brother by choice Phoenix.Like we have built this thing from the DC Eagle distinct littleparty in DC into something so much bigger than we could have ever imagined. Andsometimes I especially kind of live in this bubble where I'm not aware how manypeople it's impacting or the impact it's having. And so when we get that memessages like that, it's like, oh my goodness.And at the end of the day, you know, people are always like,Well, why? Like, why even bother keep doing it? And I always tell them thefollowing, which is that, yes, doing Lobo and being on the road every weekendand traveling is terrible for me medically and will probably take a coupleyears off my, off my life.And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that trade off. And thereason for that is very simple. I am making people's lives better. My team ismaking people's lives better. We are creating a community event [00:53:00] that is impacting the world. And that'sall I've ever wanted. If I was to die tomorrow, I, I could leave a legacy thatwe've changed some people's lives and that's all I've ever wanted to do.And so for me, if you're telling me that I would lose a coupleyears in exchange for saving a couple. Then that's fine. If you're telling methat I can leave the world in this, a legacy in this event that basically willhelp to create, find people of their chosen family, I'm okay with that at theend of the day because that is what I've always wanted to do, is basically livelife like my grandmother and leave the world in a better place than I found it.And right now there's a lot of people leaving the world in amuch fi place than they found it. But if I can just impact one person, then itwas worth it for me. Amen. Everything De'Vannon: you justsaid. I mean, and you mentioned having, you know, fighting the disease andtraveling and you know, and I know DJs don't exactly get off work at 5:00 PM soI know, I know you're worthy for the wee hours.So is there any sort of special thing that you do to keep yougoing? Because [00:54:00] I know you mentionedfatigue, it can be one of the symptoms. So how are, how do you manage thedisease and do all that? You do Jake: Red Bull, ,lots and lots of Red Bull. No the DJ answer is Red Bull and Caffeine pills, butthe actual answer is basically from Monday to really, like Thursday it's sleepand recovery, and then starting on Thursday night it's travel, and Friday andSaturday it's go, and then we start the process over again.That's really what it is. It is draining. It is hard. It isrough. It is not easy with the mito, but at the end of the day, like I alwayssay, it's, you know, the look on people's faces at Lobo and the messages thatkeep me going. It's, it's knowing that we're doing something and. Thatultimately I get to live a life that many people wish they could.And I'm very appreciative for that. But I'm also not mistakenon how many people sacrifice for me along the way to get me here. You are a De'Vannon: gratefulmotherfucker. I [00:55:00] love it. So, toexplain, Jake I read where you do like, you create events for people withsensory issues. I wanna know what sort of sensory issues you speak of and howyou tailor Jake: it.Yeah, so that's something new we are still laying thegroundwork for, but that we have done. And what we are trying to do isbasically create nightclub events for people who, who have sensory issues,sensory overload, loud noises, lights like, you know, we can do. One of thethings that people often say is, and this is especially true in kink andnightlife just for the record, is I can.Make this accessible? Well, sure you can. You just don't wantto, you don't wanna put any extra legwork to get it there. There are times whenyou can't make something accessible. Like if there's only a stairway up, I getthat. But, you know, don't tell me you can't play the music at a lower level ona, on a certain night and not do a bunch of flashing lights.Like that's, that's an easy fix. That's an incredibly easy fix.It's just the fear of alienating your ongoing base is what is preventing people[00:56:00] in a lot of ways with a lot ofdisability accessibility. It's fear of alienating those who might not wantthat. And you can hear I think some of the passion in my voice when we talkabout this, because as someone with a disability, I never want someone to feellike they can't go somewhere because of something that may trigger somethingfor them.So one of
Tyler and Mike's Insights 2: Bret Hart v Shawn Michaels Iron Man Match WM12 Tyler and Cuz discuss the iconic Iron Man Match from Wrestlemania 12 between HBK and the Hitman! All of our links (Including Merch...go buy MERCH): https://linktr.ee/WreWindWrestling Music: The Whip by Kevin MacLeod & Slow Burn by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3742-fearless-first/ License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b... "The Whip" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
This week we sit down with Lizard Skin founder, Brian Fruit to learn the original story of the brand founded in 1993. From cycling bar tape and accessories now to baseball, hockey and lacrosse, the brand has had an interesting journey making its products in the United States. Lizard Skins Episode Sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (code: TheGravelRide for free HRM strap) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Lizard Skins [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show. We welcome Brian fruit, the founder of lizard skins. Was there a skin spin part of the cycling industry since 1993. It's been quite an incredible journey for the company. Y'all know how much I love the business side stories behind the brands we know and love. So I was super excited to get into it with Brian and just learn more about the journey. With respect to their bar tape. What I find is interesting is that the material they have is definitely. Sort of on the gummy air side and you'll hear Brian, describe a bit about that product. But also it's worth noting. They offer four different sizes of kind of the diameter. Of the bar tape, which really changes the feel you can go from super thin. I E a lot of bar feel all the way out to kind of pair Ruby style, super cush. Which I think is an interesting option that you don't see across the board. A lot of times when you go into your local bike shop, You see only one diameter tape that's available. So it's an interesting thing to play around with and something I've enjoyed while testing out some of the lizard skin tape. Just before we jump in, I need to thank this week sponsor the hammerhead crew to. I am literally in Spain as you're listening to this, I'm recording this intro just before I'm boarding my flight and definitely thinking about all the adventures I'm going to have on the roads of Jarana. I thought about borrowing a computer from the group that I'm going with, but it was from another brand that I had a little bit of a bad experience with back way back when. I've come to love many things about my hammerhead computer. And I am convinced it's the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today. It's got industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS options. Free global maps with points of interest included like cafes and campsites. Mean that my riding in Gerona. I won't be without information. I'll have everything at my fingertips. As I'm saying all this, I'm literally reminding myself that I should go download the country maps. So I've got everything on hand. In my hammerhead crew to device. Hammerhead gives bi-weekly software updates. So the features are always up to date. And they're always listening. You can provide feedback to the team in hammerhead and potentially it's going to end up in a software update. You're not locked to a particular software package because they're always upgrading it. I really look for the climber feature. That's one of my favorite features these days. It was particularly poignant for me when I was riding in, uh, Bentonville Arkansas, a few weeks back at the big sugar gravel event, all those punchy climbs. I was really on the limit. I'm much more of a sit and grind on the coastal range here in California. So this punchy climbs or something I wasn't used to. So understanding exactly how far I was to the top and how many candles I could burn staying with the groups I was desperate to stay with really came in handy. So very much recommend the hammerhead crew to it's my exclusive computer. For gosh, probably over a year now. I'm not the only one singing its praises. It was named bicycling magazines, editors choice in GPS, cycling computers. For the past two years. Take a look on their websites for a limited time offer our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of a hammerhead crew to just visit hammerhead IO right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. Remember it's an exclusive limited time offer for our podcast listeners. So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride for that free heart rate monitor strap. Would that business behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Brian. Hey Brian, welcome to the show. [00:04:27] Brian Fruit: Awesome. Super glad to be beyond today. [00:04:30] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm excited to dig into Lizard Skins a little bit, but I'd love to start out, as we always do, by a little bit about your history and how you ultimately got into cycling, and let's talk about the origin story of lizard skin. [00:04:44] Brian Fruit: Well, that's a, that's a good one. Yeah, it's been. Three decades ago now dating myself a little bit I was a college student at BYU and I got my first mountain bike. I worked, you know, most of the summer and saved up some money and got a mountain bike and, and thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. Not just for the awesome writing that we were able to do in the mountains. Just as a way to get around campus and commute. It was just so much more liberating than fighting the parking spots. So I just fell in love with cycling. I think I'd, you know, from a very small age, I've always loved everything with wheels on it. And then this mountain bike was, that was a revelation. So fast forward a few more years and I'm a senior about to graduate and there's a company. Called Reflex bikes. [00:05:35] Craig Dalton: I remembered them. [00:05:36] Brian Fruit: yeah, they made these cool lugged frames. You know, some of them were aluminum tubes, some of 'em were carbon tubes, and they sold to another company. Look, that makes, you know, pedals and things like that. [00:05:49] Craig Dalton: And did Reflex have some sort of Utah connection or were you just familiar? [00:05:54] Brian Fruit: they were making 'em here in Utah, [00:05:56] Craig Dalton: I, Wow, I didn't know that. I had a girlfriend who had that one of those bikes in the very early nineties. [00:06:02] Brian Fruit: Did it creak? [00:06:03] Craig Dalton: It creeped. And the one thing I remembered too about it was that there was some really challenging cable routing. So when it came time to build it up, it was like a nightmare. Getting something through the bottom bracket, I think was what I struggled with. [00:06:17] Brian Fruit: Yeah. So it was a cool bike and it had a great designer and, and he had sold the business. And, and moved over to Europe actually to, to work on design there. And, and apparently there was a, a trademark issue on the name reflex. And the people that owned it were no longer willing to allow that name to be used. And so, Look just said, I think we're just done with this, but this doesn't make sense for us to be involved with. So they decided to liquidate everything. So rims and cranks and headsets, and you name it, bottom brackets, shifters, handlebar. And, and so they sent out these postcards to all these stores, and my friend worked as a bike patrol at Sundance Ski Resort, brought the. Postcard home. And I'm like, that's kind of interesting. So I drove up there the next day and I bought $300 worth of bike parts. Didn't have any money. I was just a college student and all the way home like, Oh, what am I doing? I don't have 300 bucks is the worst decision ever. And I sold all those parts that night to just random people in the apartment complex and friends that I rode with. It's cuz there was no social media back then. This is, you know, early 90. 92, I believe. And and the next day I went up there again, like, you know, being drawn to the, you know, bike parts, like the bug to the blue light zapper, and bought like $300 of the parts again and all the way home. Like, Oh, what am I doing? This is the worst decision ever. Sold all those parts again. And that was it. You know, over the next six weeks I was buying and selling parts and I sold them to bike stores and I sold them to individuals and I, I sold about $30,000 worth of parts, made a decent amount of money on that, bought my wife a wedding ring and saved up a little money for us to get married. And, and that's kind of how how my life got started. You know, in the bike world, I just kind of fell in love with the whole, the whole scene and, and not the people, but even like the smells when you walk into a bike store, I just like the smell of a bike store. It just, I know that sounds weird, but it just feels right in bike stores. I, even, when I'm on vacation, I like to go try to find a bike store to pop my head in and look around, so, [00:08:49] Craig Dalton: What an, that's an amazing kind of origin story, and I love the name dropping of reflex. It brings back very, very fond memories for me. So did you continue sort of pursuing kind of like a distribution type business model? [00:09:04] Brian Fruit: So, that lasted for about six weeks. You know, they were selling all those parts at this big discount and that just kind of made me think, man, something in the bike industry would be really fun. And we looked at two or three ideas and, and. None of 'em actually worked out. And then a friend introduced me to another friend and that guy's name was Lance Larson. And Lance had this idea of making neoprene and Velcro accessories for bicycles and calling 'em lizard skin. and but Lance wasn't a, a writer and he wasn't really familiar with the space. So he and I connected and, and in the simplest terms, the original, you know, premise was that he would make the products and I would sell 'em. It, it didn't really work out exactly like that. There was a lot more crossing over, back and forth, but Lance and I got to work together for eight and a half years. And, and built the company from nothing. The very first month we did $350 of annual sales. [00:10:09] Craig Dalton: Do you remember what the first product was that you came out with? [00:10:12] Brian Fruit: Yeah, yeah, it was the little neoprine and Velcro chainstay protector and man, they were small back then. It was like a really small length and really small diameter. And now, you know, they make the tubes so much larger. You know, the, the old one wouldn't even fit on a bike today. [00:10:29] Craig Dalton: Yep. Yeah. If you think about those old steel tube change stays that used to wrap, they were tiny, like the, like the size of your pink. [00:10:36] Brian Fruit: Yeah, so small. Exactly. And we made all kinds of fun colors and, and we made these little headset seals that would keep the dirt and grim out of the headset. And then eventually we started making fork boots, which would keep the dirt out of the front fork because the seals back then weren't very good. And then we made a same kind of a boot for the rear shock. And eventually started making rubber injection molded grips. And then we added in some BMX products. We made BMX pad sets and BMX plates and BMX shin guards and elbow guards. And and then, you know, I bought my partner out and, and that, that took several years and there wasn't a lot of extra cash, you know, cuz. Everything just seemed to go to him to, to buy him out. And, and eventually we got that all done. And, and then we were able to really kind of move forward more dramatically because we had, you know, some money to work with. [00:11:34] Craig Dalton: Right, Right, right. Yeah, I, I think back across that period that you're describing, and I do remember those original lizard skin chain guards, but I probably, I remember more. Like the arrival of color, cuz back in the early nineties, certainly on the mountain bike scene, that was the heyday of anize parts and finding any, any way to make your bike a little bit more colorful and have a little flare to it. [00:11:59] Brian Fruit: Oh, people were putting on Coca Cranks and Cook Brothers and, and you know, Paul components and everything was purple and red and yellow and, you know, green and yeah, you could buy a, a Chris King headset and it was all Rastafari and [00:12:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was, it was like there was so much innovation going on back then in the world of mountain bikes, and I mean, I think that's what I've enjoyed about the last several years in the gravel bike world is you just see that kind of innovation. No one knows exactly what's right. The bike designers have been given a lot of freedom to design bikes that, you know, range from a road plus bike to a full on bike packing bike, and they're all in this, this quote unquote new genre of gravel cycling. [00:12:49] Brian Fruit: It is fun. I rode a friend of mine's you know, bike packing bike just earlier this week, and. It was super fun, you know, it just had a, a cool geometry to it. And, and he had, he had outfitted mountain bike breaks onto his, you know, drop bar controls, and it had some significant breaks. You know, he's a bike store guy and he figured out how to do it. It was awesome. [00:13:16] Craig Dalton: at what year did you sort of transition your business partner out and start to think really like what new products could you innovate? [00:13:24] Brian Fruit: Yeah, so I bought him out in 2001 you know, early part of 2001. And you know, we, the philosophy then was like, turn over every rock just. If nothing else to see what was under underneath. And you know, we bought different equipment to do our manufacturing with. We, we just really tightened up to try to make everything more frankly more profitable and more efficient. [00:13:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I meant to ask earlier, did you, at what point did you bring manufacturing in-house and what does that look like from an equipment perspective? [00:13:59] Brian Fruit: So we were making these little neoprine and Velcro accessories in the United States from day one and, and still do 30 years later. So what it takes is, I mean, we did it differently. You know, in the old days, the equipment we used wasn't very efficient. We've got. Good stuff now. And so it's a dye press with a still rule dye and then that allows you to cut the fabric out in these perfect shapes. And anybody that's working on the dye press the first day, you know, you have to make sure and tell 'em, you know, if, if you're dropping the dye or if the dye is slipping outta your hands, just let it hit the ground. Like don't try to catch it, you know, cuz it's [00:14:45] Craig Dalton: Sharp all over. Yep. [00:14:47] Brian Fruit: we can, we can fix the, we can fix the dye. It's [00:14:50] Craig Dalton: And then after you, after you're dye cutting the neo printer, are you then going into a sewing process? [00:14:57] Brian Fruit: We have really nice commercial sewing machines. We use a zigzag stitch on it and we sew that in-house with different sizes of Velcro on each side. And then kind of do some trimming to make it look. And then we package it up all, you know, done in the us. So, you know, that was a good thing and we were able to make a super high quality product and, and we sold a lot of those. Eventually a lot of the brands started adding some type of a. Chain protector or you know, chain stay guard to the bikes and it, and definitely impacted our sales. But we added these other products, you know, injection molded grips, and eventually we created a great relationship with odi where they made a. a significant line of lock on grips for us under their, under their patent and technology, but sold by us, under our name and, and to our customers. [00:15:53] Craig Dalton: With ODI manufacturing in the US as well. [00:15:56] Brian Fruit: That's correct. Yep. They're out in California actually, so, you know, it's like, double hard in the United States and California , but great product and they, they have great tooling and they could make these grips just so crisp and clean and, and the technology they have just, and still have is, is second to none. So we teamed up with them on, on lock, on grips. And then eventually we really wanted to come up with a lightweight mountain by grip that was just different. And so we checked into another industry and we made some appointments and we started visiting factories, hoping to get this lightweight grip you know, maybe for cross country racing. And, and unfortunately we weren't successful in finding, you know, that. You know, through maybe another industry. But on that trip we figured out that we found a company that could make tape for us. And it was literally my, my general manager, Brad Barker. And he and I were on this trip together, and as we were about to walk out the, the the building, the business, he kind of turned around and asked them. It was like, Hey, could you guys make tape for. And they're like, Oh yeah, we could totally do that. He says, Great. I'll, I'll, I'll be in touch. So, you know, he says, Brian, I really wanna try this. I really wanna, you know, sink my teeth into it. So, you know, he was working with the factory back and forth about nine months and making samples for handlebar tape for road bikes. The first sample was like, what, 12 or 18 inches long? And we're like, Well, this is not gonna work. And then the next sample was, you know, really long, but the product didn't stretch. Well, that's not gonna work. And so we went through rendition, after rendition after rendition, frankly, not knowing how to create the proper tech kit to speed the process along, but just trial and error and. [00:18:01] Craig Dalton: was there something in the road bike market that you felt was missing like some type of performance out of the grip that you guys saw as an opportunity? [00:18:09] Brian Fruit: Yeah, that's a great a great question. We, we did feel like that there could be something different. Most of the tape that was available at that time was the synthetic cork and you know, gets dirty and it kind of slippery and it wasn't really any. as to it or any technical, anything. So when we came out with ours, it was completely different and had a much different texture and feel. It, it actually felt softer even though it was the same thickness and way more grippy and it was cleanable. You could just take a little alcohol and a, and a clean, you know, white rag or something. You could clean it right up and, and it wasn't stained and dirty. So we ended up finding a product that was gonna work and we were really proud of, of the product we had designed. And then the factory told us how much it was gonna cost and it was like one of those, you know, stressful moments and we're like, Ugh, how's this ever gonna work? Cuz Bar Tape at that time sold for 15 to $20 for, you know, the common synthetic co. [00:19:18] Craig Dalton: Yep. [00:19:19] Brian Fruit: Ours was gonna be $35. . And so we're just like, Oh, this is gonna be tough. But everybody that touched our tape loved it. And so we're like, Well, we just gotta get people to touch it, you know? Cuz once they do, they'll love it. And that's the phrase, Touch it, feel it, love it came from [00:19:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I, you know, it's so, it is poignant when you put your hands on some lizard skin tape, it feels different. You know, I'm riding it on my, my bike right now and. Everything you've just described is what I've felt about it, like it feels When I'm barehanded I often ride barehanded and I, I feel much more connected to the grip because of the sort of, I dunno, stickiness is the right word, but this kind of sticky quality that I feel when riding it that's quite different than court grip. [00:20:12] Brian Fruit: Yeah, it's, it's grippy, you know, and it's from this patented, you know, technology and material that that our partner supplier created in tandem with us. And and it's just been absolutely wonderful. [00:20:28] Craig Dalton: So it's, so, it's so interesting to me as, Sorry to interrupt Brian. Just as like a business journey, you sort of realize, hey, we've got something unique here, but I can't tell you about it. You've gotta feel it and touch it to believe and see. I can imagine, like in the bike industry, that's a challenge, right? To kind of just translate that into the hands of enough people to develop a passionate following to say, I'm willing to pay this premium price for this performance now that I know about it. [00:20:59] Brian Fruit: So I happened to be on a, a family trip, and again, I love bike stores, right? So we have a distributor in Guatemala that, that was selling our product and they had a bike store. So I went and visited that store while we were on this family trip. And there was a customer that came in and he had a road bike, I think it was a tri bike actually. And the handlebar tape was all falling off and, and I just happened to hand him my handlebar sample that I had and he just fell in love with it. And he told the, the manager owner of the store there, he's like, I want this. And and we told him kind of what the price was, and that's a lot of money in Guatemala. and he's like, No, no, I want that tape. Like, so give me that tape. And, and that's kind of how it's worked. Like we pay a ton more for our tape. It's not that we make a lot of money on it. We actually have a pretty tight margin on it, but the manufacturing cost is just a lot more because of what the product is and the, the materials that are, that are used. But once you feel it, it's like, . Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna splurge and I'm, I'm, This is what I want. [00:22:12] Craig Dalton: So are you still using the same manufacturing partner [00:22:15] Brian Fruit: We are, Yeah. And they've come up with, you know, new technology and, and you know, improvements to the polymer to make it, you know, even more grippy and even more durable. So it's been nice. You know, we did a complete redesign on the tape a couple years ago, two or three years ago now. And the new tape actually has a pattern on it. And if you looked at that pattern with like a, a jeweler's loop or a magnifying glass, you would see that the pattern is like, It, it's multi depth. So some of the little bumps are really deep, some are less deep, some are really shallow, just to maximize the feel and control on the bike you know, with, with these different dimensions into the pattern. So pretty technical. [00:23:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think as as riders, we benefit from your obsession over this one little part of the bike. Say, how can we make it the best it can be? [00:23:15] Brian Fruit: I mean down that same conversation, and this is not a, This is me telling a bad story about myself. Unfortunately, not a good business story, but our plug that we had was really cool looking and was shiny and, and had the little lizard on it, but it did have a tendency to fall out. You know, if you didn't leave enough tape tucked in. So some people, it worked great and it never fell out, but other people, it fell out. So I wanted to get a new screw in plug and, and unfortunately we allowed ourselves to run out of plugs during that process. And probably lost a million dollars of sales just because we didn't. The actual plug that I wanted and I didn't want to go back to the old plug, cuz in my mind it already moved on to the new plug and the supplier for the new plug was being a Turkey and not making a for us. And, and we had to actually switch, you know, suppliers and, and but honestly now we have an amazing screw and plug which is a super simple thing and like, it shouldn't even be like a big thought, but. It probably cost me a ton of money making that transition, just cuz we didn't, we didn't wanna continue on with the old one and we didn't have our ducks in a row on the new one we thought we did. But but [00:24:32] Craig Dalton: I think anybody who's ever manufactured anything can commiserate with that story, myself included. [00:24:39] Brian Fruit: So, but now we got a great plug and the supplier's good and, and everything's, everything's functioning well. [00:24:46] Craig Dalton: You know, one of the, one of the things when you visit the lizards in skin site as a customer is that the first thing you see is an array of colors. And you're like, Great, if I wanna create some accent color, like you just have so many different unique colors available for the bar tape. But when you select your color and you get into it, you also then realize there's this secondary, probably much more important from a performance perspective, opportunity to choose your thick. Of color. For most riders, you probably buy bar tape and you don't even think about it. I don't know what the average is. Maybe it's a two and a half millimeter, but on your site you've got, I think it's 1.8 millimeter, 2.5, 3.2, and 4.6 millimeter bar tape, which is a pretty wide array. [00:25:35] Brian Fruit: So when we started this journey on making Hbar tape And we really tried to figure out what everybody else was doing and trying to get understanding. So we were out there with a micrometer trying to measure it and, and kind of the normal standard tape out there was about 2.5 millimeters, but nobody ever called that out. There was never any technical data. It was just a box and it. You know, Hbar tape with no detail. So we came out originally with the 2.5, which is still our very best seller and it's kind of the most common that you would see. But we had a request for some thinner tape, and there were some customers that said, Oh man, you know, you need to make it a little thinner. So then we came out with a 1.8 in limited colors. And, and we found that certain people in, in certain, you know, applications really like the thinner product and especially people with a little bit smaller hand because they just couldn't get their hand comfortably around, you know, this big fat bar. Big fat tape. Then we had a lot of people was like, Oh, why don't you make a thicker tape? You know? And I think they were like, Man, if you're gonna make a thinner one, why don't you make a thicker one? So then we came out with a 3.2 and you know, the packaging was bigger. Everything about the, the thing is just bigger. And people loved it. Like, man, it, it quickly became a great seller for us. Not better than the 2.5, but it was better than the one eight in fact. And so we've done real well with the three, two, and it lays down nice. And then we just had certain customers you know, wanting to do gravel rides, you know, cobbles, maybe they just have hands that hurt. You know, they have, could be an injury, just could be the way they are on the bike. But their hands just go numb and get sore. They. They wanted more cued. And so some people would like double wrap their bars. You know, but that, that has some challenges to it. So it came out with this 4.6 and it's a beast. It is a big, old fat role. But super comfortable when you get it on. It is a little harder to lay it down, you know? And. In all honesty, if you're wrapping 2.5, that's pretty easy. 3.2 takes a little more finesse and 4.6, it takes a decent amount of experience to make it lay nice and flat, but. [00:28:07] Craig Dalton: interesting to layer in those op those options for gravel cyclists. Obviously, like on this podcast we've got had lots of discussions around, you know, how do you create suspension? You start with your body, then the tires. Then grip tape's gonna play. Play a role in there. And again, for all the reasons you're just talking about, for some people, they're really taking a lot of abuse in their hands for one reason or another. Maybe they've got an injury and I, I could see having that option available to them, even if it's for a special purpose, a special event, wrapping your bars in a separate way. I remember back in the Perry Ru Bay classic days. When you're talking about people doing double wrap bar tape, everybody was consorting themselves in the prop peloton to find some way to make their bikes more comfortable. For days like Perry rba. [00:28:57] Brian Fruit: Yeah, and there's been a few different products made, you know, like, little gel packs and little foam pieces and stuff to put underneath there, and. And, and they work to some degree, but you know, the gel packs are break or they'll get kind of wiggly and the handlebar tape doesn't work well with it. And by doing this nice 4.6 and the 3.2, like, it just fits. It's just there. It's solid. You don't have to worry about a bump or a weird spot on there. And it, and it's been successful. [00:29:30] Craig Dalton: And as I understand things, you've been also getting feedback from a couple pro tour teams for the bar tape. [00:29:36] Brian Fruit: We were very fortunate to get a pro tour team to use the HA Bar tape many, many years ago. That first team was the con and this was kind of like a Forest Gump moment. But they were using our tape and one of their writers Johnny Hoer. Always being indebted to him. He was leading the polka dot jersey competition, the mountain mountain points in the tour, Frances, and it was a flat part of the beginning of the, of the tour. So ultimately he was doing breakaways and getting these points and on one of those days that he was in a breakaway, you know, getting a, a handful of mountain. A press car bumped him and another rider. And they went off the road and into a Bob wire fence. They hit that fence so hard that it actually pulled the P wood post outta the ground. And as just hardcore professionals, they got back on the bike, all cut up and dazed and, and jerseys and shorts all ripped up from the Bob wire. And, you know, their team gives 'em a push and off they go. You. At the end of the race, you know, Johnny gets off and he had been bandaged by the medical car and you know, they're trying to bandage him as he was riding his bike. So by the time he finished the race, you know, most of the bandages were falling off. It was a mess. And they interviewed him afterward and his attitude was like, this was an accident. I wished it wouldn't happened. This is gonna really mess up my opportunities at the tour, but it could have been worse. Let's move on. The other gentleman, writer that got hit had a very different take. His team was trying to find out who was responsible, who was gonna pay. It was just very bitter and, and interestingly enough, everyone fell in love with Johnny. And they started looking at his bike and once those chain rings he used and what kind of bike it was and what was his saddle and what kind of handlebar tape he used. Oh my goodness. Our handlebar tape started selling like crazy. [00:31:55] Brian: So all the distributors started having a run on the product and they ran out of, you know, lizards, skins, bar tape, and and boom. That was it. That was our four Gump moment. Handlebar tape became the most popular aftermarket tape in the world. And it was because, you know, one guy was was cool, you know, [00:32:17] Craig: And thrown into and thrown into a barb wire fence. I remember those images. [00:32:22] Brian: Oh. But you know, he just handled it right. You know, I think a lot of times in life we all have bad things that happen to us that are out of our control, but it's how we handle those things that kind of impact, you know. How we interact with the rest of the world [00:32:42] Craig: Yeah, as you remind me of that story, I remember very viscerally thinking about, gosh, this is gonna be another Primadonna roadie that has a tantrum. And I remember how you describe like the other team, the other writer. It was just this big to do and you know, who's gonna pay for this and how do we replace how he would've done throughout this tour juxtaposed to how Johnny handled it and how their team handled it. [00:33:10] Brian: Yeah, it was it was, it was pretty crazy. So, taught me, you know, a great lesson, right, of, you know, it's important to manage how we react you know, to, to potentially bad things, you know, happening to. So, you know, how we behave can really, you know, change overall how something goes down. [00:33:34] Craig: Yeah. Such, such an amazing journey and so cool that you've been able to do it using us manufacturing all this time. I love that part of the story. Before I let you go, Brian, I did wanna touch on one other thing because I think it's interesting. I mean, the gravel cyclist should go to your site and check out the different dimensions of bar tape and all those cool colors. You have great product. It definitely delivers that kind of grippiness and unique feel that we were talking about earlier. But I was also bemused to learn that you're also into several different sports, and I think the listeners would kind of dig hearing just a little bit about your journey into those other sports. [00:34:13] Brian: Y. So Hannah Bar tape was, was doing extremely well. And one of the guys from work Brad Barker that helped design the tape. Originally, he loved baseball. He had boys that were playing on baseball teams. Had another friend from college that, that gave me that little postcard for the sale at at Reflex actually. He. He was one of the guys that helped me feed my mountain bike passion. He had three boys that loved baseball and they were all putting this tape on baseball bats, bicycle tape on baseball bats. So it, it, it was like, Huh, is there something there? So we started making two thicknesses of baseball grip. We made a 1.1. Which is kind of the traditional thickness for baseball. And we made a 1.8, which is a little thicker. You know, think of the 3.2 in cycling, that kind of thing. And we put it out there. We won best of show for the first trade show we went to, and, and you know, nothing really happened. But when we sold the stuff into a store, it, it, it did. . So we figured out, it's like, well, we just have to increase the amount of stores. So we eventually got a bunch of stores selling it, and then there was a local probe by the name of John Buck. He connected up with us and wanted to go to a trade show and we said, That'd be great. You can share our booth and you can show your product in our booth and it, and it'll be fun. So we start that and at that show, . He brings his bats and we wrap 'em for him. And the whole time he's like feeling the bat, you know, while talking to customers about his products. And at the end of the show he's like, you know, if you made this thinner, I would use it in the pros and I would get other people to use it in the pros and I think have something. So Brad came back from that show and we talked and he says, this is, this is the convers. and we both looked at each other like 130 years of history with people using like sticky stuff, pine tar on baseball bats. Like, how in the world are we gonna change that tradition? Like, that's never gonna happen. And they were like, Yeah, probably not. And they were like, What? What should we do? And we both agreed it's a pro player, we should probably make it. So we did, we made a, a thinner version, one or a 0.5, really, really. and John started using it. Hunter Penn started using it. Big Poppy started using it like, you know, Miguel Cabret, I mean, just tons of these great players and they were sluggers and and eventually we got invited to go to the Equipment Manager show for Major League Baseball, which then led to us getting a license of Major League Baseball where we became the official bat grip on field license. for Major League Baseball and, and it was amazing and our sales grew, grew, grew, which allowed us to hire more people and get into a bigger, you know, better facility and you know, hire more designers and then continue to make more products and and grow the company. [00:37:33] Craig: Yeah, cuz now you're in baseball, hockey, lacrosse as well as cycling. [00:37:39] Brian: and recently we just added pickle. [00:37:42] Craig: Of course, the rise of pickleball, that is the moment in time we're in [00:37:48] Brian: So it and each of these sports, the product is different. So we're not just repackaging, we're actually redesigning the product each time. So you know how long it needs to be, what's the thickness, what type of a backing do we use? For cycling, we use an EVA backing, but for baseball we use afil. [00:38:09] Craig: Yeah. [00:38:10] Brian: you know, different patterns and the gripping qualities on the patterns are very different. So, we've, we've replicated ourself effectively in all these different sports. [00:38:23] Craig: When you, when you think about the business now, what percentage is cycling versus everything else? [00:38:29] Brian: Wow. I mean, in 2020, you know, there was a surge and cycling was the biggest part of the. 2021, it was still great. 2022. You know, cycling sales have, have slowed a little bit because there's a lot of inventory that's been shipped out there. So baseball is now the biggest part of the, of the business. Cycling is second, and then hockey would be third. [00:38:52] Craig: Gotcha. [00:38:53] Brian: So, [00:38:55] Craig: Yeah, super interesting story. Totally appreciate you sharing the journey with me. I enjoyed the conversation. [00:39:02] Brian: Oh, you bet. It, it's been a lot of fun. You know, I look back I, I wouldn't have wanted to go a different route, you know, I've loved the cycling industry and I actually started lizard scans and then several years later I, I started a bike store and then a couple years later I bought another bike store and, and I still have those bike stores. They're, they're great. I love 'em. And, and it, it just, it feels like walking into the Cheers bar, you know, from, from that sitcom. So when you go in the bike store, that's what it feels like, you know, it's just like, it, it's just, it's another home, right? [00:39:42] Craig: absolutely. Yeah. We all, I I hope that many of the listeners out there have that kind of relationship with their local bike shop, cuz I certainly do in my town. I love going there, I love seeing all the team that works there and, and just saying hi and having that familiar, you know, love of the sport that you can share. [00:40:00] Brian: Yeah, it's just, you know, fun getting to have friends continue to come in and get to see 'em. I mean, it's almost like a little mini fan family reunion, like every day that you go in the store. So [00:40:12] Craig: Yeah, absolutely. Well, have a great weekend, Brian, and we'll talk again soon. [00:40:17] Brian: appreciate it. Take. [00:40:19] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Brian from lizard skin for joining I hope you enjoyed learning a little bit about his journey and are intrigued by some of the other product categories that they've found themselves in over the years. Definitely go check them firstname.lastname@example.org. Uh, as I mentioned earlier, that bar tape's been, it's been interesting trying out the different diameters. I'm still in the 2.4 camp, But I am curious about that 1.8 thickness bar tape as well. If you're interested in connecting with me, please join the ridership. That's w w w dot the ridership.com. That's a free global cycling community. It's hosted on slack. So it's basically a slack channel that you can communicate with other gravel, cyclists. From all around the world. If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated until next time. Here's the finding some dirt under your wheels