Podcasts about just shoot me

Today on Too Opinionated we visit with actress/modal Stephanie Romanov!  At fifteen Stephanie moved to NYC joining the Elite Modeling agency. She landed her first major spread for Italian and french bazaar. During her modeling career she was the face for L'Oréal, Gucci, Armani, Maybelline, Ann Taylor and many more. Stephanie landed her first role as Teri Spencer on Aaron Spelling's Models, Inc.. She went on to land guest starring roles in Homicide: Life on the Street, The Sentinel, Just Shoot Me! and Burke's Law. She starred on Angel for four seasons, playing Lilah Morgan from 2000 to 2003. Romanov has also appeared in several films, including Spy Hard and Menno's Mind. She played Jacqueline Kennedy in the critically acclaimed Thirteen Days and appeared in The Final Cut alongside Robin Williams.    Want to watch: YouTube Meisterkhan Pod (Please Subscribe)

May 9-16, 1998 This week Ken welcomes comedian behind the new comedy LP "Beach Brain", Andy Woodhull. Ken and Andy discuss being live via sattellite, coast to coast, refusing to partake in daylight savings time, having never read a TV Guide, having a stand up bit that never works but you refuse to dump it, when fonts are too small, growing up in Indiana, refusing reality, supper, even uglier Jerry Seinfeld, Jerry Seinfeld dating a teenage girl, your dad buying a Playboy for your teenage friend (when your dad isn't Jerry Seinfeld), Jenny McCarthy, when Seinfeld ended, how Michael Jordan was so famous that even cardboard cutouts of him got ad deals, graduation speeches, how milk chocolate is for children, Jerry Seinfeld picking up teenagers in Central Park, Regis, claiming change is bad, Beetlejuice, Dunkaroos, Saturday Morning Cartoons, how the Babe movies fit into the Mad Max universe, David Ducovney 's music career, not buttoning shirts, America's Funniest Home Videos, being a part of the Vin De Bona family, hosting Totally Funny Animals, Daisey Fuentes, ska remake of theme songs, Matlock, JAG, Jag offs, The Good Wife being watched by your wife, unexpected character deaths, Tony Clifton, seeing your friend prosecute a terribly disturbing case in court, avoiding Miss Universe, Home Improvement, sitcoms based on stand up acts, Geriatric indecent proposals, shows we pitched that never went, divorces, TeenBeat, Mad About You, having the juice to make your TV show commercial free, learning the word "epiphanic", Paul Reiser, the death of Chris Farley, Just Shoot Me, the original voice of Shrek, auditioning for the part of Robin in Batman, T2, people hating the Seinfeld finale, Police Squad, loving The Naked Gun, why Ken should avoid the Lord of the Rings movies, how Andy rewatches the LOTR series every year, Airplane, 30 Rock, and not asking for a short history of bullsh*t.   

'Shrinking' and ‘Night Court' star Wendie Malick joins the show. Over tuna melts, Wendie talks about her iconic characters on ‘Just Shoot Me' and ‘Hot in Cleveland,' including some behind-the-scenes moments with Betty White, and why working with Harrison Ford on ‘Shrinking' is like an old pair of jeans. This episode was recorded at Huckleberry in Santa Monica, CA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lindsey Campbell interviews Vernon Davidson (director) and B.J. Maier (editor) about the documentary SEGAL about actor George Segal. See it as part of NorthWest FIlm Fest on May 10th at 12:00 pm the Metro Cinema. SEGAL looks at the life and career of George Segal. From a shy kid from Long Island to a sought-after leading man during Hollywood's most prolific decades, legendary entertainer George Segal shares his life story. From television (The Goldbergs, Just Shoot Me) to films (Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?, The Terminal Man, California Split) his career spanned seven decades.https://www.segal-doc.com/Instagram: @segalmovie

Ivana Milicevic was a struggling stand-up comedienne, trying to win over crowds with her stories of the modeling business. In 1996, she made her film debut under the name Ivana Marina with a one-line role as a former girlfriend of Tom Cruise in Jerry Maguire. In 1997, she followed up with a guest role on NBC's Seinfeld and made guest appearances on several other television shows, including Royal Pains and playing the love interest of John Casey on Chuck. She played bit parts in Vanilla Sky and Love Actually, among her many other cameo appearances. Milicevic capitalized on her experience as a comedienne in a supporting role as Russian model Roxana Milla Slasnikova in the romantic comedy Head Over Heels. She appeared as a lookalike of Uma Thurman's character opposite Ben Affleck, trying to fool him into thinking she is Uma's character, in Paycheck. In a departure from her one-dimensional roles, Milicevic showed her dramatic talent in a supporting role as Milla Yugorsky in a dark and gritty drama Running Scared. In 2006, she started a recurring role on the CBS TV series Love Monkey. In 2006, Milicevic made a big step forward in her career appearing as Valenka , one of three Bond girls in Casino Royale. She is also known for her work on The 100, Hit Monkey, Strike Back, Banshee, Power, Gotham, Psych, House, Charmed, Friends, Seinfeld, Pushing Daisies, Castlevania, American Dad, Just Shoot Me and Buffy the Vampire Hunter!   Want to watch: YouTube Meisterkhan Pod

Writer/Producer Andy Gordon loves writing. He talks about writing for pleasure after all these years. He talks about how the characters can make him laugh or cry in the car. He also talks about breaking into show business on the day he arrived in Hollywood, Jon Landis, Tom Lynch, Chuck Lorre, sending messages to his daughters through his shows, working on Big Bang and Modern Family, and the joys of arrest videos. Bio: Andy Gordon is a writer/producer who worked on KIDS INC, DREAM ON, MAD ABOUT YOU, NEWSRADIO, FOXWORTHY, JUST SHOOT ME (2 pilots + 4 years), DAG, WHAT ABOUT JOAN in Chicago, COMPLETE SAVAGES with the Scullys, BACK TO YOU, TRUE JACKSON, LAST MAN STANDING, FRIEND ME, MYSTERY GIRLS, MODERN FAMILY, BIG BANG THEORY, US OF AL and CALL ME KAT.  Also the movie FIRED UP.

April 10-17, 1999 This week Ken wades through a dog related false alarm emergency as he welcomes returning guest Erin Judge and first time guest Jenny Chalikian who have a brand new live record out called "Romantic Comedy: Live! at the Ripped Boddice" Ken, Erin and Jenny discuss Star Trek, Discovery, Xena, the greatness of Jeri Ryan, Star Trek Voyager, hating a Doug Henning future, being gay, gay icons, Hercules, watching TV with your very conservative family, shows shot in New Zealand, Hong Kong action, representation on TV, Dawson's Creek, growing up in Texas, Ken's history with Richard Roundtree, the is Xena butch or not debate, how Jeri Ryan's ex-husband's bad behavior gave us Obama, femme'd out TV stars, Evil Dead The Series, Cynthia Rothrock's greatness, kids who's sketch show was All That, SNL, SNICK, the power of 90s Comedy Central, Are You Being Served?, Alias, why Jennifer Garner always deserves better, Tom Green, Futurama, Family Guy, the post-Simpsons prime time animated world, how Heaven is America, Millenium, X-Files, Walker Texas Ranger, Chuck Norris' syndicated editorial newspaper column, The Awful Truth, Ally McBeal, how television teaches women you either have powerful careers OR a love life but not both, Highlander: The Series, Becker, whatever the hell JAG was, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, loving monsters and loving weeks but not always monsters of the week, how insane people generally are, Laura Kightlinger, Pulp Comics, Kathy Griffith, The Nanny, the Massachusetts factual inacuracies of Dawson's Creek, the double standard of teacher/student relationships dynamics, Delacatessan, Norm, Dr. Quinn, the bizarre-ness of the streaming business model, Irish Wish, Strangers with Candy, Spin City, Just Shoot Me, The Drew Carey Show, nostalgia for Scared Straight, Sabrina the Teenager Witch, Ben Savage working out his family issues via Boy Meets World, Two Guys, a Girl and a Pini's Pizza Place and wishing you could google who somebody is right in front of you because they are clearly famous but you have no idea who they are. 

Curious about what it's like to make the switch from writing for TV to writing books? Or maybe you want to learn writing tips from a screenwriter with decades of experience?Either way, you're going to love this episode with Michael Jamin. Michael is a TV writer turned author who just published his collection of personal essays, A Paper Orchestra, in 2023. Since then, his book has won a Reedsy Discovery Editor's Choice Award and has been named one of Vulture's “Best Comedy Books of 2024.”Michael's many credits include writing for King of the Hill, Beavis and Butt-Head, Just Shoot Me, Wilfred, Maron, Rules of Engagement, Out of Practice, Brickleberry, and Tacoma FD. And in this episode, he's sharing what it was like making the switch from writing for TV to writing his first book.In the episode, you'll hear us talk about things like:[03:53] What it was like making the switch from writing for TV to writing his debut memoir—including how Michael's background in TV both helped and hindered his memoir-writing[12:13] The two main reasons Michael's book died on submission—despite having an agent who loved his book (spoiler alert: it came down to not having a platform and his manuscript lacking a throughline)[14:52] Why Michael decided to self-publish, plus what he learned while researching the differences between traditional and indie publishing[18:08] How Michael built his audience on Instagram to almost 200k followers by being authentic and sharing his knowledge[24:17] Michael's two cents on writing comedy, including some of the most common mistakes writers make when trying to write comedyEven if you can't relate to Michael's TV background, you'll still get a ton of value from this episode. He knows what it's like to struggle through your first book—and he's a great example of what happens if you don't give up!

Seinfeld Podcast Interview With Fred Sanders. Fred played "John Mollica" in the Season 3 "Seinfeld" episode, "The Pez Dispenser." You know Fred from The Single Guy, Caroline in the City, Just Shoot Me, The West Wing, Malcom in the Middle, TitusThis Podcast Is Making Me Thirsty is a podcast dedicated to Seinfeld, the last, great sitcom of our time. We are The #1 Destination for Seinfeld Fans.We talk with those responsible for making Seinfeld the greatest sitcom in TV history. Our guests are Seinfeld writers, Seinfeld actors and actresses and Seinfeld crew.We also welcome well-known Seinfeld fans from all walks of life including authors, entertainers, and TV & Radio personalities.We analyze Seinfeld and breakdown the show with an honest insight. We rank every Seinfeld episode and compare Seinfeld seasons. If you are a fan of Seinfeld, television history, sitcoms, acting, comedy or entertainment, this is the place for you.Do us a solid, support the Podcast

Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!What happens when a seasoned television writer known for his work on irreverent comedies such as Beavis & Butthead, Just Shoot Me, and King of the Hill takes a leap into the author world? In this episode, Michael Jamin reveals the more personal and vulnerable side of his writing through his release of A Paper Orchestra. From navigating the intricacies of the TV industry to exploring the art of storytelling and the decision to self-publish, Michael offers an unfiltered glimpse into the realities of a creative career.Michael candidly discusses the contrast between writing for TV and writing for oneself. His reflections on creativity, inspired by authors like David Sedaris, offer insight into the importance of staying true to oneself in a world full of (neverending) expectations.You'll also hear about the joys and hurdles Michael experienced with the self-publishing process, including the role of social media in building an audience (as well as what led to his decision to abandon his quest for a traditional publisher). Is 2025 the year you start your own podcast? Let's make it simple!Get 35% off the Podcast Starter Pack with code PODCAST35 at https://publishaprofitablebook.com/podcast101"I got my podcast launched in 3 days thanks to this great mini-course!"--Dr. Diana Naranjo, The Characterist podcast host Your readers are waiting! Let's get your book published! PublishAProfitableBook.com/Publish (use code AUTHOR25 for 25% off!)Write the Damn Book Already is a weekly podcast featuring interviews with authors as well as updates and insights on writing craft and the publishing industry. Available wherever podcasts are available: Apple PodcastsSpotify YouTube Let's Connect! InstagramWebsite Email the show: elizabeth [at] elizabethlyons [dot] comThe podcast is a proud affiliate partner of Bookshop, working to support local, independent bookstores.To see all the ways we can work together to get your book written and published, visit publishaprofitablebook.com/work-with-elizabeth

Luke and Will get back to their roots and talk celebrity speculation. This includes the cast of ‘Just Shoot Me' and a debate; Who is more popular at their height – Craig Robinson or David Spade? Two major match-ups in college football may tell the fate of the 12-Team-College-Football-Playoff. If Indiana wins, where does Ohio State go? If Army wins, does Boise State get the boot? Luke and Will discuss. Oregon's close call against Wisconsin may be a sign of danger. Fake your death, but make sure you cover your tracks.

Wendie Malick: Award Winning Actress. Credits include; Shrinking, Night Court, Hot in Cleveland, Just Shoot Me & about every other show in the last 35 years

“We took on the stance of being on the side of our sponsors, embracing them and their dreams.” Dana Carvey (Comedy Legend, Co-Host of Fly on the Wall) The Media Roundtable is back! This week we're bringing you one of our many favorite chats from Oxford Road's 2024 CAO Summit: “Permission to Laugh.” Jenna Weiss-Berman (Co-Founder & Co-CEO, Pineapple Street Media and EVP, Head of Podcasts at Audacy) hosts a fireside chat with SNL comedy legends and longtime friends Dana Carvey (Wayne's World, The Dana Carvey Show) and David Spade (Tommy Boy, Just Shoot Me), fresh off their hit podcasts Fly on the Wall and Superfly. We're diving into: why stars make podcasts, the power of comedy, and 8-minute ad reads. Let's jump in.

"It's Only Rock and Roll" There's a lot to tell about Michael Des Barres, but let's start with the music. In the early '70s, the Sussex-born singer/songwriter fronted the glam rock band Silverhead, who were signed to Deep Purple's label. He decided to try his luck on the West Coast, moving to L.A. and fronting the rock/soul outfit, who were signed to Led Zeppelin's Swan Song Records. In '82, Des Barres formed the hard rock band Chequered Past with Steve Jones of The Sex Pistols and Clem Burke of Blondie. That band opened for folks like INXS and Duran Duran and that Duran Duran association proved auspicious as Des Barres was invited by Andy Taylor to replace Robert Palmer as the singer of The Power Station. I know I said Des Barres was a rock and roll chameleon, but at this point he sounds more like a rock and roll shark, doesn't he? He never stops moving. Des Barres fronted The Power Station at Live Aid and along the way he co-wrote "Obsession" with Holly Knight, which became a global hit for Animotion, he put out fabulous solo records, fronted another band called The Mistakes and in 2013 he joined the Los Angeles Philharmonic for the world premiere of 200 Motels: The Suites, by Frank Zappa in which he appeared as Rance, the narrator. We'll get to his new album in a second, but let's talk about his acting first. Des Barres has so many IMDB credits, it's dizzying. Getting his start at age eight, he's appeared in over 100 television shows and close to fifty movies. Let me run through a few because it's nuts: All you '80s kids might remember him in The Ghoulies, but he was in To Sir With Love, Under Siege, and David Lynch's Mulholland Drive and on television he was on Roseanne, Just Shoot Me, Frasier, Seinfeld, St. Elsewhere and MacGyver. Des Barres is a true rock and roll chameleon, because, like a chameleon, he's able to effortlessly change from situation to situation. That subtle shapeshifting quality makes folks like Des Barres able to basically do whatever he wants because he has massive range and can move through the cultural space with otherworldly ease. Des Barres' new album It's Only Rock and Roll is an affectionate tipping of the hat to the songs of the '70s that he loves. From Roxy Music's Love Is The Drug to Sweet's Fox On The Run to the Faces' Stay With Me, this is a scorcher of a record that features Des Barres sounding better than ever--his delivery still has the same muscular pounce and raw elegance and the 12 songs here are delivered with equal parts affection, admiration and grace. And this interview? An absolute blast. www.michaeldebarres.com (http://www.michaeldebarres.com) www.bombshellradio.com (http://www.bombshellradio.com) www.stereoembersmagazine.com (http://www.stereoembersmagazine.com) www.alexgreenbooks.com Twitter: @emberseditor IG: @emberspodcast Email: editor@stereoembersmagazine.com (mailto:editor@stereoembersmagazine.com)

Zach saw Just Shoot Me on 10 Peach on his way to the studio and he wants to talk about it. Plus wet hogs. LINKS  Follow @theauntydonnagallery on Instagram https://bit.ly/auntydonna-ig  Become a Patreon supporter at http://auntydonnaclub.com/   CREDITS  Hosts: Broden Kelly, Zachary Ruane, & Mark Bonanno   Producer: Lindsey Green Digital Producers: Nick Barrett, Jim Cruse & Tanya Zerek Audio Imager: Mitch Calladine  Supervising Producer: Elise Cooper   Managing Producer: Sam Cavanagh    Join The Aunty Donna Club: https://www.patreon.com/auntydonnaSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Jamin has been writing for television since 1996. His many credits include Just Shoot Me, King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Out of Practice, Rules of Engagement, Lopez and Tacoma FD. He's also served as Executive Producer/Showrunner on Glenn Martin DDS, Maron, and Rhett & Link's Buddy System. Michael currently lives in Los Angeles where he continues to work in TV and is the author of his bestselling collection of personal essays, A Paper Orchestra. He tours with it as a one-man show. https://michaeljamin.com/ @michaelJaminWriter michaeljamin.substack.com Connect with your host Kaia all Alexander: https://entertainmentbusinessleague.com/ https://twitter.com/thisiskaia  Produced by Stuart W. Volkow P.G.A. Get career training and a free ebook “How to Pitch Anything in 1 Min.” at www.EntertainmentBusinessLeague.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's Girls Gone Hallmark's first Hallmark+ review! Megan and Wendy are sharing their thoughts on the new series The Chicken Sisters, based on the best-selling novel by KJ Dell'Antonia. Is this show merely about rival chicken restaurants, or does it offer more? They also discuss standout characters, veteran actors, and Megan's insights into how the series diverges from the book. Email us your review at girlsgonehallmark@gmail.com or let's talk about it in the Girls Gone Hallmark Facebook Group! We Need Your 5-STAR Ratings and Reviews Spotify Podcast listeners: Spotify allows listeners to rate podcast episodes. Once you listen to a podcast for at least 30 seconds, you get the option to rate it between one and five stars. Return to the podcast's main page and tap the star icon. Then, tap submit. About The Chicken Sisters, Episode 1 - (Hallmark+, 2024) Annie Mebane wrote this episode 1 of The Chicken Sisters. Annie is also an EP on the show. Annie's previous writing credits include Bad Monkey and Shrinking, both on Apple TV+ as well as The Goldbergs, Community and Happy Endings.  Jimmy Gatewood directed this episode. Jimmy has directed 27 projects including Girls5eva, Survival of the Thickest, Ghosts, The Big Leap and The Babysitters Club. The Chicken Sisters was adapted from NY Times Bestseller and Reese's Book Club Selection The Chicken Sisters by KJ Dell'Antonia Margo Martindale voices the narrator. Margo has 131 acting credits with six Emmy nominations and three Emmy wins! Listeners might recognize her from her role on The Americans and Justified as well as the recent Peacock series Mrs. Davis where she plays Mother Superior Lea Thompson plays Nancy. Lea has 112 acting credits including, of course, Back to the Future and her role on Caroline in the City.  This is her second Hallmark project, having appeared in Next Stop, Christmas. She was also on a CW series in 2023, The Spencer Sisters, where she and her daughter play private detectives Wendie Malick plays Augusta, or “Gus.” For readers of the book, this is the character previously known as Barbara. Wendie has deep resume of 197 acting credits that include 149 episdoes of Just Shoot Me, 125 episodes of Hot in Cleveland, the Netflix series The Ranch, and Young Sheldon.  As far as we can tell this is her first appearance on Hallmark Schuyler Fisk plays Amanda. Schuyler has 28 acting credits including a role in the 2002 movie Orange County, co-starring Colin Hanks. She also appeared on the CW series Hart of Dixie. Genevieve Angelson plays Mae. Genevieve has 27 acting credits which include recurring roles on The Afterparty, New Amsterdam, and The Handmaid's Tale.  Cassandra Sawtelle plays Frankie. Cassandra has 32 acting credits. She has previously appeared in one Hallmark project - Tipline Mysteries: Dial 1 for Murder. Kelsey Mawema plays Lindsey, Sabrina's daughter. Kelsey has 26 acting credits and also appeared in one previous Hallmark project - Sealed with a List. Her other credits include Life with the Walter Boys, Totally Killer, the Babysitters Club, and all three movies of the To All The Boys I've Loved Before series.  Rukiya Bernard plays Sabrina. Rukiya has 83 acting credits, which include her role as Hannah in all four Christmas in Evergreen movies. She also appeared in 11 episodes of Yellowjackets. Watch the Trailer for The Chicken Sisters Our Thoughts on The Chicken Sisters Here's a detailed rundown of everything we discussed in the latest podcast episode of Girls Gone Hallmark. If you're not already a listener, we invite you to join us and dive into the world of Hallmark with us! What We Liked Excellent Character Development: Wendy Malick as Gus: We were blown away by Wendie Malick's portrayal of Gus. Her character is intimidating, with a nasty streak, making her both fascinating and a little scary. This multi-layered character has us intrigued to learn more about her backstory and w...

Today on Too Opinionated we talk with actress Kirsten Nelson! Kirsten is best known for her work as Karen Vick on Psych! Kirsten us also known for her work in War of the Worlds, The Fugitive, This is Us, NCIS: New Orleans, Bones, Warehouse 13, NCIS, Parenthood, Ghost Whisperer, Everwood, Malcolm in the Middle, Frasier, Ally McBeal, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, The West Wing, Just Shoot Me, The Practice and The Untouchables!    Want to watch: YouTube Meisterkhan Pod. (Please Subscribe)

It's a truism in coaching that we learn something from everyone we meet. I learned a ton from my conversation with award-winning producer, manager, and Hollywood Navigator, Brian Medavoy and I learn something new every time I listen to this episode: Life is about moments. Because it's the little wins, the moments, that add up to something bigger. There's no Olympics, World Cup, World Series, Super Bowl or Oscars without the moments that add up to get there.  Key Takeaways: Moments gets you out of your head and into the present Moments gets you away from being results-focused Success is measured by what we do for others. The best way to get a person's attention is to help them.  You can learn a lot from an Oscar winning actress or an actor, but you can learn a lot more from what he or she did before they became really successful As a personal manager, Brian Medavoy has had a hand in the careers of Ryan Reynolds, Toby McGuire, Josh Brolin, David Schwimmer, Jason Bateman and Maria Bello, among others + developed and produced TV classics like Dharma and Greg, The Single Guy, and Just Shoot Me. Brian is also the writer of an insightful and generous blog, Welcome to Hollywood. Resources mentioned by Brian in this episode: The Five Minute Journal Building a Second Brain - Tiago Forte Late night legend Dick Cavette interviews jazz legend Oscar Peterson  Brian Medavoy's Business Plan for Actors

TV writer, showrunner and author Michael Jamin (King of the Hill, Just Shoot Me, Maron) joins the show to talk about finding himself when he wrote A Paper Orchestra, constantly wanting to leave LA, anxiety, feeling safe on a run during the pandemic, being too hard on his daughter, regret, notes, parenthood, lying in a meeting, show running Maron, his writing partner, voice acting and so much more. We also talk do a round of Just Me Or Everyone, take questions listeners sent in on Patreon and do a round of Podcast Pals Product Picks. Get yourself some new ARIYNBF merch here: https://alison-rosen-shop.fourthwall.com/ Subscribe to my Substack: http://alisonrosen.substack.com Products I Use/Recommend/Love: http://amazon.com/shop/alisonrosen Check us out on Patreon: http://patreon.com/alisonrosen   This episode is brought to you by: TROPICAL SMOOTHIE CAFE: Visit one of Tropical Smoothie Cafe's 1400+ locations or order online or through their app!  Buy Alison's Fifth Anniversary Edition Book (with new material): Tropical Attire Encouraged (and Other Phrases That Scare Me) https://amzn.to/2JuOqcd You probably need to buy the HGFY ringtone! https://www.alisonrosen.com/store/ Try Amazon Prime Free 30 Day Trial

For most of the past 40 years, NBC has absolutely owned Thursday nights. The network was never more successful in that endeavor than during the heyday of its "Must-See TV" programming block in the 1990s and early 2000s. Legendary comedies provided the anchors for smaller, but still great, sitcoms to find their footing, and tentpole dramas closed out the night. While the best days of "Must-See TV" are likely behind us, the Great Pop Culture Debate podcast wants to look back and determine the best NBC "Must-See TV" Show of all time. Join host Eric Rezsnyak and GPCD panelists Amy Pilott, Jim Czadzeck, and Kevin Dillon as they discuss and debate 16 series that aired as part of NBC's legendary Thursday-night programming block. Play along at home by finding the listener bracket here. Make a copy for yourself, fill it out, and see if your picks match up with ours! For more exclusive content, including warm-up in which we discuss the villains we were bummed didn't make the bracket, become a Patreon supporter of the podcast today. RELATED CONTENT Best 90s Sitcom Best 2000s Sitcom Best Emmy Winner for Best Drama Series Round 1 Match-Ups: Match-Up 1: "Will & Grace" (1) vs. "Brooklyn Nine-Nine" (4) Match-Up 2: "The Good Place" (3) vs. "Frasier" (2) Match-Up 3: "The Office" (1) vs. "Caroline in the City" (4) Match-Up 4: "Just Shoot Me!" (3) vs. "Seinfeld" (2) Match-Up 5: "Friends" (1) vs. "Superstore" (4) Match-Up 6: "Law & Order: SVU" (3) vs. "Mad About You" (2) Match-Up 7: "ER" (1) vs. "Veronica's Closet" (4) Match-Up 8: "Wings" (3) vs. "Scrubs" (2) Have a say in future episodes! Finally, if you want to have a say in what episodes we tackle next, vote in our Topic Polls! And we would love to have you pick your faves in the polls currently open for your votes! Subscribe for our weekly newsletter! EPISODE CREDITS Host: Eric Rezsnyak Panel: Amy Pilott, Jim Czadzeck, Kevin Dillon Producer: Curtis Creekmore Editor: Bob Erlenback #nbc #mustseetv #90stelevision #nbctvshows #90stv Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

She get mad when I around— Buried these things like seeds; They put us in the ground, They didn't know we were trees; She sees me, retreats m She sees me, retreats Kaleena time he bc what was over there; They love us when we're big, ugly, ghetto and funny But Nothing But Nothing Your kind forces us to lie, I guess He wants me, but likes your eyes, I guess At least I tried, I guess At least you tried I guess This is not my violence This is not my war, I'm just fighting it Don't know what you did this for; Listen in to send the enemy I envy them They envy me But I'll do this thing independently I don't need your white supremacy Was thinking you could be a friend of me, But ended in a tantrum, Guess she's scared to see me elevated —still cant fuckin hater White girls are fuckin haters —but I can't fuckin hate em That's the mirror-mirror— She was hating so bad, She took her man with her I got bad manners around her She gets mad when I dance And this is how I found her In a trance: Now the iPhone tells her when to attack, I'll be right back to happy, But unfortunately for insomniac, I'm still black. How white woman's intolerance and fragility l have yet to mix well with black excellence. It was the second time the same woman—or at least the same type of woman had shown herself to be quite put off by just my mere presence—then again( it seemed like all of them were beginning to look and act the same, as they supposed they all saw us, anyway—but perhaps it was with the changing of the times that it was beginning to tire them; now we had become as a whole, at least into the medi, which if anything would only seek to divide us further—and it had. I could never trust these types of girls anymore to be friendly without the salt of distaste upon her brow, or a disdain entirely — Fuck it, I'm sick of this skin. I miss you all , at the Rock, you know Broadcast to the top of my eye, Through my heart and my lungs, But I'm too far from God, now, you know (I still can't turn it off, Now I have to wake up and get going, You know You're not always God, You become One You're not always lost, When in love You're just not home This was never my home, But an office I should owe deposits and faucets, But honest to awful, I want to stop talking, And fall into nothing From comas, Come up then From commas to sorries I'm not even colored! I'm borderline In black and white As seen on The Office As seen on Cops as seen on Is this a rock album, or what?! As seen on The screen Don't look at me Don't look at me It really keeps me safe and simple No one save me, Just let me lie naked and rot With my thoughts, And my Something Something Something Wishing Someone else would love me Pick another lover Throw a rock, And climb the mountain Let it roll, and He's really pissed about this little list I'm still glitching and flinching Over Kayla Lauren And “the girl who sung the water song” Is what they'll call her two years from now Why would Del Beatty pick me to compete Against his daughter— For diversity, Or just to push me to the end of extinction? The one who sings Adele will win this one, Just suffer longer, Soak a little Choke on your own thoughts Broadcast from the Rock, It's only Tuesday Just rehearsal Just a writing room, with no one in it But my homelessness Just another box With too much stuff inside to sort through Just another martyr in my eyes Who wants to leave this world behind By suicide Has anyone else noticed The motorcycle causes more disturbances, But only when I rub my pussy Or my tired eyes? Must be the feds, Cause the cops can't do shit Why call the cops, When they're not yet polished enough To detect a terrorist Who uses a Kawasaki To make sure my ex Continues to punch me Over and over And over and over Till I lose the words to my songs In the holes in my stomach This is fucked up I just wanna go surfing, And come home I can't go back, you know This attack on the blackness is facts, you know Likeness is what it attracts, you know You going to EDC? No! They don't want me there It's just now okay To stare in the mirror She can't hear us anymore, that's it. That's a wrap, I guess. “I guess” She knows We were all theatre fiends And weirdos, She knows We l all could have been friends, In another world And she knows Nobody knows where she goes When one show is over, Another just closed, And it's up close and personal Up close and personal It's a Rock Opera, a musical I suppose She knows Someone must have bugged her phone The whole house is bugged! Hidden cameras all over the place, And she knows, She'll never be safe And she'll never be home And no one can save her From Satan, Who takes over Everything And every body And all she knows; Until she just Where'd she go?! I don't know! Are you SERIOUS?! Earlier I had Kenan and Kel here, But it's been hell here— Between capital one and Amazon Someone loves the one who punched me More in than anyone could ever love me. Why would Jan make me a crying shame, If she thought we were all the same? She hated me. Just a tough grader, Hacked to her google, And back to the drawing bored— Story lord! Story lord! Glorified whore of the horror show, No Rocky Mountains, though a So far from the west coast, Cast out of shadows From the past From everlasting tragedy To ever after Have Jan and Andy accept my Grammy; And the Tony for Iambic Cause I just can't Goddamn stand it Being this black at all Or, Not black at all I guess that's my power I'm an actor, On behalf of The Blackness You're right, that was tragic. I have a sense of energy about these things. I have this— Elephant on my chest, And I just need to rest a bit more, Before I fast again, Because honestly, all of a sudden It hurts a lot more for digestion Than focus and concentration, Lately, I just can't fake it I love New York, But I hate the fame Without the money Every projects on a budget And everyone who sits below me looks like roaches And I'm hopeless, just hoping Thomas Edison and his little friends Don't shut the lights off Before I can book my show, But you know— This is getting really strange, cause Every day I'm more obsessed with Tina Fey And I can't even really say her name, Or the game we're playing I don't want to hurt nobody's family; It must have been grounds for damnation to say Anything, To say anything To say anything —and actually mean it (But for three days, She didn't say shit!) As was written This fame thing is getting legit, As was scripted, But being honest, I'm just breaking from the pressure of unknowingness What to do with this What to do with this That's a secret, you know! You just keep speaking in tongues, And leaving doors open behind you, when you should be closing them! You keep abandoning projects, And that album couldn't get done Without doing some Salt, What. She's cutting up salt. REALLY?! I don't want to talk about the hard stuff, no! I don't want to talk about passwords, Surfboards, flagships, Jo/hns, or bananas— I'd never talk again, If I didn't have to! Suddenly, the light got brighter; I like this album, I look just like that —he looks just like me, Or used to I don't want nobody no more I just want to Nothing. If Qualudes were standard in the 80's Why persecute a Namesake who shouldn't be Shrouded in shame As I am the same As I ever was, As we all are As he was And she was Was I there? A dark thought, then. Pause. Why isn't poverty listed as The main reason we can't see Or achieve world peace Why can't she see That I see her man staring back at me And I would be mad, too I might even be tantruming If that thing came in With an ass twice my size And starts dancing, Or, You know, just Working it out Cause these racists are trying to kill me With Satan— And he's even using babies I light candles She smokes newports He hires whores and consorts These people make me sick— But I just keep Writing them into my project Pretending that Maybe if I keep changing enough Something won't hate me enough to keep making me Suffer longer Surfs up in california, so You're going back to the homeless shelter! You're going back to the place where the niggers and immigrants fight over nothing Or California, where the weather is warm But you could be camping, so Best find a job, For the lights turn off Or you turn yourself out for Some business cards “And this is WHY she doesn't DESERVE her son!” It's like some telephonic interception The definition of intrusion and terrorism But who is there to call When there's no one at all And they're targeting all of the dark skinned Smart ones At least the ones that aren't fucking for stardom! Fucking cunts and fucking hypocrites Fucking shut the door Fuckig shut your mouth kid I ran down the mountain, Never to find my way back But I'm still in a blue eyed Trash can All the people are trash now! Tell me, What would you do, Tel was cute, But his wife was stupid— Why would he choose her? (Cause you're just a kid!) Here you are, just a ghost In one of the most racist, hateful places America hated you since grade school Suffer harder, suffer longer. Tell me what would you do, If the man who made your husband's mother Kill herself By the kiss of his fist, To the barrel of her gun Asked for the strands of your dead son's hair? tell me, What would you do If this wifebeater Asked for locks of your dead sons's hair?! TELL ME WHAT YOU DID WITH HIS HAIR! Now they're all acting strange like Satan But I'd rather eat a train to my face Than ever go back to Or even hear his voice again— If I'm behing honest It wasn't the cheating— It was the beating me —It runs in his family The malpractitioner of what should be Healer's Magic Shamanism Hypnotism It's a cynavle trick of hypocrisy He wants me dead and gone for walking off But all the monsters and skeletons in my closet Came from the Punch the clock Clocked in the Punch the clock Clocked in the Punch the clock (That's the ensemble, with the chorus ) At least I ran the mile I was going the distance (The ensemble and solo part switches, so I put them in different dimensions.) As least I ran the mile I was laughing and smiling —till I saw the sign on my arm Had forgotten me Once again That's why you don't date fans And you can't make friends In fame school You can make all you want But you just can't take it with you Nobody will sign you! Especially insomniac! Not cause you're black— You just can't get past this I just can't get past this. They're racists No, here's some black kids— But they're actors Attractions, For ticket sales Attractions, And ticket sales Attractions And ticket sales I hate competition, But I love Beyonce The pain in her voice on lemonade, it took me down a— Black, black holes Super nova, super nova I was Ivy, once, you know But now I'm Blū, too That's what the truth is Yesterday was good, But today, I just hate myself Yesterday was good, But today I just hate myself Yesterday was good, But I just hate the sound of raging neighbors Motorcycles, And fireworks— I'd rather hear gunshots At least that means Somebody's problems got solved, Of course, It also means A mother lost a sun And I missed another sunset Jacking off, Without a someone to Love me I saw my insignia Inside of your eye And collided here I guess I was a weaponized assassin Every lie I told, an act, Disguised as a question Designed for the highest power The man of the hour I guess I was just made to suffer, Everything I stole, Pots of gold at the end of the rainbow, Things they had stolen from us Food, clothes, jewlery, fruit and water Peace of mind and Justice, order, Education— Closing borders Now places the border collie above us, Dogs are so much more important than The star search is over The man of the year has been hired The president has been fired Discovered a liar, A thief And the world that collapsed behind her As she tried to Fall back onto All the impossible thoughts That were caught at the rock's antenna Caught on the rock's antenna We lost one Caught on the rock's antenna We lost another Caught on the rock's antenna We caught a story I was just thinking, How everything I did back in school— The actions for the words I never had before All the rejections, and reflections of the Repellant that my ugliness was Just a joke With my arms wide open You wouldn't even know this kid, if you saw her And you wouldn't even know this woman, if you met her You could never say her name, Because she hasn't one Ah, jeez, I really do like his swing —I really do love his wife, She's nice No wiki leaks For the children of celebrities Or their families With respect to privacy Which I already haven't Just for writing this I'm being honest Every time I lie It's cause the truth would just hurt harder What's the worst one ever? What was worse than to Put scars on her arms For the marks of the stars For the blood was just cursed For the curve on the pavement Did remind me We were driving Our bodies around the speedway Like race cars We race cars In race wars We raise stars Up from nothing We race cars In race wars We raise stars Up from nothing Come to EDC, with me. I wish, She says But that could never be —that could never be me. We race cars In race wars We raise scars Upon the lips, We left scars Upon the knuckles Sick of always watching Something just short of disturbing —always ever attracted to These things, which to me look like children —and with him, I had Nothing . Sploosh. What. That's what's happening now: SPLOOCH. You cannot DO this. I mean, I already did, technically. Well, it— Ajax Flac THIS CANNOT HAPPEN: What the fuck. Idk. I can't go back there. What happened. Nothing! Had it ever occurred that The soaks in saltwater Are taking her back to the ocean Where she belongs, But can't afford to go to Had it ever occurred to you that a quarter per word on this project Would have earned you Exactly enough To keep going. What it boils down to was, The news today is Cloudy with a chance of That dance was awesome That wasn't a dance, It was a brutal attack On Jimmy Fallon. Finally. Thank you, No pictures, please god BLESS the paparazzi! Now that's the positivity We called for in the first place She slated and named it But that was before the first take The cut takes The cut takes Thank you, No pictures please God DAMN this paparazzi That's how they caught me Holding hands In the back was The white rabbit In his arms was Alice in Wonderland And I'm still jealous, And a little mad It's just a metaphor For the equator SOUTH. Than you, No pictures please Fuck the paparazzi Fuck the paparazzi Fuck, Nobody loves me anymore I gottta make some more Art Some more love Some more movies GOD BLESS THE PAPPARAZZI (It's still a rock opera) I gotta make some more Soup Some more food for these people More shoes for the children More monies to burn No more time at the Grammy awards It was always postmortem Cause I just don't When she grows up, She'll realize How wrong this all was… In the hallways, It was awkward In the walkways It was all over the news When she gets older She'll realize how much wrongness was Put onto her STOP SUPPORTING A WIFEBEATER he used me to get to Nevada To drink and buy whores with the money We were supposed to pay bills with I was his alarm clock He kicked my dog And OH YEAH HE PUNCHED ME so shut up, Federal government Get out of my google documents If you want me to kill myself, Send some more coughers You just gotta love these robot— Ok, That crechedo was awesome. Fuck this nigga, though I took nothing from him, But he wants me to end in the “She struggled with mental illness” Haven't you realized, in this country Being black is a synonym for Mental illness Cause something was always wrong with us Cause we can't belong with them So fuck off Get the fuck out of my head Get the fuck out of my google documents So fuck oft Stop bringing up my husband Stop sponsoring a wifebeater and pedophile Stop believing HIS story Cause if anything History shows us that HIS side of the story was WRONG. The eye knows All I know And all I know is The eye is the eye And I just want to die Cause I can't get the guys I like The eye knows All I know And all I know is The eye is inside me And I just want to die Rather than fight this They eye knows All I know And all I know is All there is to know, Until there's more to know And there's always more to know, More than to meets the eye And the eye is the eye ️ Even if it was unintentional, there was something so sinister and evil about her that no trust could be formed, try as I might, to cease the war of worlds between us. Something so evil and so dark that, for the life of me I could not forage a single tear more, as I wept only moments before in fear of her and her cruel clansmen— a brotherhood—or rather even—sisterhood of outright selfish power, greed, and hostility; It was around midnight, as I soaked peacefully in the tub—peacefully—being the key word; the first relax in the chaotic uprising of the Equinox day—her spirit was evil as could be, two empty blue eyes like the nothingness that loomed, sitting in the corner of the hallway, ready only to be filled with nothing. The white women had made it to a world where the love had been bred out of them, in the sheer and unwitting hierarchy of white power which was set to foil itself in its own nation; a race which had gone nearly extinct, by sheer racism and hatred alone. Fuck this dumb fucking bitch. ‘You wanted the psychological terrorism, right? Now you've got it. ‘ You've got another thing coming if you want to ride on the coattails of dead children to bring about the secrets of an unknown world, lost to you in the weakening of your gene pool amidst the servitude of all who have known less, but now know more of a Kingdom which it will be many many times before you will ever see. What a wicked, wicked race. If you think there's such a thing. Only currency has made it so that you and me are so unlike that one in the same remains as such an atrocity; but you see— before we go making mistakes, we take names, and numbers; I was done with you before even your time was up, and that's how much worse is coming for her. For a girl who hardly cooks or ever cleans, midnight is an odd hour to run the vacuum cleaner, and as much as a white woman may forage the ugly wrinkles to sink into her eyes around the age of 24 or 25 by using her beady little bird brained blue eyes to twist and bend the will of those around her, those wonderful, gorgeous, hazardous, toxic little blue things would never again work on me. It seemed the blue eyed devil was real indeed, no matter how hard I had intentionally originally suspended my disbelief. ‘What an ugly little thing.' I shrugged. I guess they wanted the Phoenixx However, Fuck that alias, And any of his namesakes, Back to hell from whence it came, The demon which has conquered My dear next door neighbor Adriene Heal her from these afflictions, Fix the blindness from her eyes that she may see truth, and give light; Rather than to just take it Amen I used to like people— It didn't matter what color they are But once you start acting like That Fuck these assholes. They started it THE RACE WAR but I'm sure goddamn gonna finish it. Fuck this place. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, THEN LEAVE. MAKE SOME MONEY. Fuck your fucking minimum wage— JUST SHOOT ME. What. [A POLICE STANDOFF] Oh please. This could never happen in New York City. Why not I don't got time for this. *blat-blat* Ok, it's done. Did you finish that script yet? Jesus, you're drunk at four in the morning. Is it four? Do I care? You said you liked his eyes— —and his smile. Which John is this again? The one who paid more than the rest of them. Who said there's a charge for this. There's a charge for this. Look, I'm desperate. Sir, I'm gonna need you to say your lines a little more convincingly. Whatever I did. I hate her. I hate him. Just—fuck it. Pray for them. Are you serious? Idk wtf is in this bitch but– Scariest fast ever. Nah, I need to get away from … That was super demonic, I'm not gonna lie No shit. I still have all this paperwork, with his name and birthday all the fuck over it. So get rid of it. Seems to have affected my entire nervous system. Look, every time I try to do this, something really bad and miserable happens and I get extremely sick. I will kill you with every possible weapon that I have. Just create something and make all this anxiety worth it. I'm going to bed. I'm going to kill you in your sleep. I'm glad you heard that. No arguments, I'm glad I said it. Now I know too well, The well of tears on my guitar She's got a body like one Oh her curves But I just wonder what it like to be loved By stars Socialites and superstars They're Gods, you know How high up they are Above us And he lives in an ascended dimension, But he insists, he says Her transcendence is upon us He said Your transcendence is upon us He says these things, And then just vanishes So she gets up promptly Warms up yesterday's coffee Looks around in her coffin And wonders What for I just Wonder what it's like to be loved by stars Without double r's, you know I've got scars But it's mostly just Teardrops, and soft kisses On my guitar Cause, oh, Oli, I ain't got nobody— And nobody holds me Like I hold Oli (Could have been Ali, But of course— I had already lost that one A whole well of tears, I lost At his departure And a whole well more When I actually lost him I almost miss Having someone to talk to About anything and everything But I've got Oli And God now I've got Oli And Oli (oli) Is all that I've got Besides God That's the only contact In my Phone book No more double Ls And double entendres; No more double rs At all Just scars now No more metaphors. Honest is radical I like them cynical I should have clinical insanity by now But I'm only just an artist You can't help But can only harm that And if it hurts hard enough I'll put art on my walls Become permanent Storybooks all over my arms now My coat of arms now I've run Ten point 5 miles In the last 3 days; But if I rest today Will a motorcycle gang Have a parade outside of my window, To drive me crazy? I hope it rains, So they can't play these games with my head And the seeds that I planted So deep become daisies I still don't remember The way he rearranged me But these days I make my name sound So the way He can never say it Just imitates The way I hate myself I should be dating But expressions are Atrocious If I fall asleep— Who knows I may get Stolen That tends to happen So I'm All the way up And I'm swollen in ways That I hate to say “I love you” Love me back Or say it harder That's my martyrdom Come off the cross, for a moment, Would you for us? And bend over Or bow, if you will? If I did, Would you still call me wicked Or just a Good witch Since I'm a woman, I just couldn't be Jesus, Who you asked for once And always Who you asked for some To save you from your Credit reports And consorts Or some sort of Nonsense [famous last words] God don't speak much English, She says God don't speak much these days We were Always Telepathic That was way back then When Oedipus Rex Was on the Guest list I was standing at the coat check, asking Why I must take off my hat When entering the service To the bouncer, he says “That's just politics” I said, That's just politics We both said, What's the difference Then we all laughed —then we all just laughed and laughed Exchange is my favorite exchange Where my favorite exchanges Have happened for centuries Of engagements Endeared species, And races pieces haven't tasted the same Since I haven't had them Animal products And animal planet I found this hat on Discovery channel Did you want it? I can't stand it So I had to have it back I just had to use the bathroom I just had to disconnect From [] See— I don't even have to put the words in Cause a name is just words When that's a man You just can't have And that's the worse When that's a man And you can't have him What a habit. Silky rabbit. Now he's the Ace. All In A Day's Work I've never died before. Oh… that is terrifying. It sounds terrible. It's really not that bad. Why are you not writing this down? I just need a moment… It's really not that bad… I die all the time. I get sensory overload At Trader Joe's Look at the colors The clothes, This sure isn't queensborough Escalators for shopping carts I get it Manhattan I'll take my half BLVCK ass to the projects Where my kind are I don't belong here , God you're intolerant I like this part of town But I'm way too brown And I dropped my crown at the market I should be jealous of everyone But I have learned my place I've been a slave since Hollywood I lost my son to the devil Now I pay child support And terrorist follow me coughing I'm wrong just for being born ! You could start a war from it If that's what you wanted I'm a people watcher people watcher About to board the people mover People mover Slip, Here's the tell Slip, here's the tell I should have a bell around my neck I think she wanted a picture with papa I'm playin my own paparazzi Look mom, I bought a sacafagus There go them niggas with coughs again I been watching em Got binoculars I got oculus, for my oculars Look how hot he is, make me ovulate Man I gotta love it, Cause they love to hate Fucking racist crazies Have it your way I paid for it with my soul You hate but I love to love Somebody just got me fuckes up I don't have a book to run off of Shut up, honey. Now we're all up here Monkey in the middle Cause the middle one is weaker It's getting deeper and deeper Like the sinkhole that my sink is Let it sink in I've been syncing my secrets with demons In dreams sequences It's just a reparative injustice Kamasutra for your wondering words and stuff You can have it It's ruined anyway m Look at all this trash Look at all these classless classes Classwars, Racists. Everybody hates us The Asians, Latinx's The other niggas What being black is I'll write it in cursive It's just a curse, here So you can have it I'm moving to Heaven I'm packing my boxes I'm getting a cat, too! His name is Agustus He's a big one And I love him I just wanted a hug or a husband Instead I got nothing to trying my hardest And got for a bargain at target some coffee For being a targeted body All on an algorithm I guess I'm just useless. A dumb nigger demon Did I just offend you? Then you shouldn't be reading this either I wrote it for pleasure (Or pain) On the one Or the two Or the one Or the two I could do a lot with this $20. I could spend it all on Fuck all of you I'm moving to Heaven Where the heart it She's not harmless She's a terrorist— And I'll kill her, too Look how right she is Look how white she is, Huh Regardless of color It's a race war Lil biiiiitzzz Yooo, fuck New York. In every hole. In every crevice. Fuck this place. It's racist— Not just cause I'm black. Like statistically. It took a whole ass apartment elsesrch to feature this out. I was like “I wanna live in Manhattan” Everyone was like “NOOOOOOOO—-“ Haha “Nooo, no.” I was like “Why not?” The blacks were like: HAHA The whites were like— *COUGHS OBNOXIOUSLY* New York is so racist. It is statistically the most diverse—and most segregated city in the nation At the same time. WHAT. How do you even DO that? But it's true, at this point, the black people are like—fuck this, we'll just stay over here, and over here. And the rich whites are like YES. KEEP THAT SHIT, OVER THERE. Cause if you've ever been to the ghetto. It's some SHIT, It is NOT COOL. I finally got my ‘night card' back. Had it revoked in california . I was almost a whole valley girl. I still eat exclusively at Whole Foods. Trader Joe's. But NO. Now i live in the hood. It's fucking disgusting. I can say ‘nigga' again. Cause it's NIGGAS. Lots of niggas. I'm telling you. It's night and day! The white folks trains smell like bleach— Ammonia. The black folks train smell like a McDonald's. WHAT. Or just— Vomit. I can actually count the number of times just— Vomit—- On the train. Or. Dookie. Yes. Human feces. But I'm ready to go to midtown and it's like the train that goes around Disneyland. Families! People singing! Hey—cotton candy!! —and I didn't have to pick it! Haha! Fuck New York. Racist ass HOLE. I thought surely the next presidential election was one or two years out, but the racial tensions which had been rising became even more pronounced, as I realized that November was theboncoming time—and that they hostility between the whites and the blacks had once again been a result as the oncoming war, fueled onward—that the hatred, disgust, and general aggression of the whites had been of course, in the midsts of yet another Trump-fueled political upheaval, and I wondered why and how at all I had been caught in such a world that existed in form of man, of course, now proven himself to be the weaker sex, and yet in that of dominance, as was arranged in such an unholy war, to be the helm of power by sheer greed— now it seemed that these attacks were indeed political terrorism, and that these motorcyclists, my placement close to the ground level, and my neighbor's clammorings were specific attacks, after my identity had been varied to be that of the same in which I had once held political ambition, now none of which I assumed mattered at all. Perhaps I needed something more certain than a 12 story jump or suicide by train, and wondered as to whether it would be easy enough to kill myself bh self inflicted gunshot—a sure thing for certain, as love has been lost in the way of money at all. At that party…or rather, kind of—after. That acid that never hit Beyoncé I don't feel it. Man, I'm a terrible influence(r) Just take it. Nah, I'm good— PUSSY. -_- Give me three. K. —suddenly hits BEYONCÉ. BEYONCÉ …I got this. [BEYONCE] however, does not Ohh, shit. — “got this.” A very stranded, very sober Johnny depp stumbles upon what appears to be a college frat party, where the only thing they have is light beer, and nobody even recognizes him as a celebrity, because the attendees are all gen z What's even after gen z? The fucking apocalypse. Anyway. The acid hits Beyoncé on her way to make coffee, which extends the trip from the living room to the kitchen infinitely. Multidimensional Anne Hathaway hulks the fuck out and saves the day by ruining everything, which actually fixes everything— and *spoiler* helps Jesus to remain as the king of kings at beer pong. Lol In the late 90s in New York City, the keystone cast of Saturday night live learns of each other's formerly sexret psychic abilities, and uses the radio technologies of Rockefeller plaza to develop a research center for the telepathically gifted, eventually discovering and perfecting time travel. Supacree (the kid version) appears in and out of her ideal and desired realities, baffling ‘the Hollywood people' and later ‘the New York people', becoming the legendary central figure of the Illuminati, as the original timepiece — a pyramid shaped extra terrestrial vehicle which contains an ascended hyper conciousness, which I can't remember how it goes, did the supacree leave to find the Skrillex, or was it the other way around? I think it was both ways at some point, but the whole thing was this, just in case I never wrote it but just saw— These space god (humanoid evolved) are some kind of scientists/ doctors— there are four timepieces, each representing an era upon our planet; earth, which is distant but sacred— these four time pieces each depart their given “docs” in time to appear on earth at specific Fuck this is hard to explain Times in history, at which the first worlds, or previous human eras were known to have been destroyed— these time pieces travel through time space with the full record of these events in order to alert the current human era of its imminent doom, as an attempt to prevent such disasterous events, typically war, which will lead to the annihilation of the human species; these Gods, one male and one female, a king and queen, a married couple are the rules of the humankind, technically worshiped as a whole as one God, with whom the human design was modeled after, however, the true source of all things is the cosmos, known and unknown, in its totality—neither man or woman, but the force of creation. Anyway, what else is happening Oh. All of the celebrities are stuck in— [the festival project] in some way, shape, or form until its creator finishes it—and though it in itself is infinite, its 'finishing' notates its eventual production, which lol. That is never going to happen. Because. Let's face it. I'm scared of …rich people. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I'm scared of The effect of the race war, which has been to pit the white woman against the black woman, which allows and maintains the continuation of war mongering male dominance over the entire planet, which remains as a destructive force of greed, racism, and inequality. So why try “Trying Is Doing” -The Isms {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2019-2024 | THE COMPLEX COLLECTIVE. © ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -Ū.

Life is marathon, not a full blown sprint. And as development executive Michael Forman knows full well, there is no "making it" in show business, because search for success never really ends, and stamina beats speed any day. Michael Forman has been a Senior-level development executive and Executive producer for two decades. As a studio exec, he helped establish the television departments of Brillstein-Grey and Virgin Produced. As a Broadcast Network executive, he worked at both NBC and UPN; In his role as an Executive producer, he led Vin DiBona Productions, Big Cattle Productions, Davis Entertainment, and Virgin Produced. During his career, he aided in developing and producing some of television's very successful shows, including NewsRadio, Just Shoot Me, The King of Queens, Blue Collar TV, Profiler, and Homicide: Life on the Street. As the Senior Vice President of Programming for UPN, he further mastered his understanding and skills of running a network. Michael achieved President rank at several companies and ultimately formed his first company, Big Cattle Productions, with Partner Eric McCormack (Will & Grace). Big Cattle yielded the Jane Lynch series, LOVESPRING. He currently runs his second company, 4Mankind television. With many projects in various stages of development, the bulk of his focus is on securing I.P.   Michael Forman 4Mankind Televison Alex Keledjian Alex Keledjian is the creator of Project Greenlight, a documentary television series where executive producers Matt Damon and Ben Affleck gave first-time filmmakers a chance to direct their first feature film.   In 2018, Alex wrote and directed the film High Voltage starring David Arquette and Luke Wilson. MAX launched the latest season of the Emmy-nominated TV series Project Greenlight from executive producer Issa Rae and Miramax Television in July 2023. How I Got Greenlit Instagram Twitter Podlink Credits Alex Keledjian, Host Pete Musto, Producer/Editor Jeremiah Tittle, Producer Experience more of How I Got Greenlit via nextchapterpodcasts.com For guest inquiries, sponsorships, and all other magnificent concerns, please reach How I Got Greenlit via howIgotgreenlit@gmail.com For inquiries and more information on Next Chapter Podcasts info@ncpodcasts.com New episodes go live every Tuesday. Please subscribe, rate & review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Join hosts J.D. Barker, Christine Daigle, and Jena Brown as they discuss the week's entertainment news, including Penguin Random House dismissing two of its top publishers, why Scarlett Johansson is angered over a new ChatGPT voice, and A24 striking a deal with publishing house Mack. Then, stick around for a chat with author Michael Jamin! Michael Jamin has been writing for television since 1996. His many credits include Just Shoot Me, King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Out of Practice, Rules of Engagement, Lopez and Tacoma FD. He's also served as Executive Producer/Showrunner on Glenn Martin DDS, Maron, and Rhett & Link's Buddy System. Michael currently lives in Los Angeles where he continues to work in TV and is the author of the forthcoming collection, A Paper Orchestra. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/writersink/support

One of the hardest lessons you can learn is that sometimes, the number one thing people are looking for is a person who's willing to do the job no one else will do, and do it with a smile on their face. As as television executive Michael Forman knows, it's that level of ego sublimation that's the key to long-term survival in show business. Michael Forman has been a Senior-level development executive and Executive producer for two decades. As a studio exec, he helped establish the television departments of Brillstein-Grey and Virgin Produced. As a Broadcast Network executive, he worked at both NBC and UPN; In his role as an Executive producer, he led Vin DiBona Productions, Big Cattle Productions, Davis Entertainment, and Virgin Produced. During his career, he aided in developing and producing some of television's very successful shows, including NewsRadio, Just Shoot Me, The King of Queens, Blue Collar TV, Profiler, and Homicide: Life on the Street. As the Senior Vice President of Programming for UPN, he further mastered his understanding and skills of running a network. Michael achieved President rank at several companies and ultimately formed his first company, Big Cattle Productions, with Partner Eric McCormack (Will & Grace). Big Cattle yielded the Jane Lynch series, LOVESPRING. He currently runs his second company, 4Mankind television. With many projects in various stages of development, the bulk of his focus is on securing I.P.   Michael Forman 4Mankind Televison Alex Keledjian Alex Keledjian is the creator of Project Greenlight, a documentary television series where executive producers Matt Damon and Ben Affleck gave first-time filmmakers a chance to direct their first feature film.   In 2018, Alex wrote and directed the film High Voltage starring David Arquette and Luke Wilson. MAX launched the latest season of the Emmy-nominated TV series Project Greenlight from executive producer Issa Rae and Miramax Television in July 2023. How I Got Greenlit Instagram Twitter Podlink Credits Alex Keledjian, Host Pete Musto, Producer/Editor Jeremiah Tittle, Producer Experience more of How I Got Greenlit via nextchapterpodcasts.com For guest inquiries, sponsorships, and all other magnificent concerns, please reach How I Got Greenlit via howIgotgreenlit@gmail.com For inquiries and more information on Next Chapter Podcasts info@ncpodcasts.com New episodes go live every Tuesday. Please subscribe, rate & review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Michael Jamin is an Emmy-nominated screenwriter who has been writing for television since 1996, and whose credits include Just Shoot Me, King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Out of Practice, and Rules of Engagement. He's also served as Executive Producer/Showrunner on Glenn Martin DDS, Maron, and Rhett & Link's Buddy System. If you are interested in how to write book-length memoir in essays, his new book will show you how, one essay at a time. It's called, A Paper Orchestra, and is just out from Three Girls Jumping Press. The QWERTY podcast is brought to you by the book The Memoir Project: A Thoroughly Non-Standardized Text for Writing & Life. Read it, and begin your own journey to writing what you know. To learn more, join The Memoir Project free newsletter list and keep up to date on all our free webinars and instructive posts and online classes in how to write memoir, as well as our talented, available memoir editors and memoir coaches, podcast guests and more.

TV writer Michael Jamin (‘Just Shoot Me!' and ‘King of the Hill.') on his experience as a writer and showrunner, growing his platform and how he created, promoted and self-published his book A Paper Orchestra,*ABOUT MICHAEL JAMINMichael Jamin has been writing for television since 1996.  His many credits include Just Shoot Me, King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Out of Practice, Rules of Engagement, Lopez and Tacoma FD.  He's also served as Executive Producer/Showrunner on Glenn Martin DDS, Maron, and Rhett & Link's Buddy System. Michael currently lives in Los Angeles, where he continues to work in TV and is the author of the essay collection A Paper Orchestra.*RESOURCES & LINKS

Sailor Noob is the podcast where a Sailor Moon superfan and a total noob go episode by episode through the original Sailor Moon series!The treachery continues this week as Nehellenia expands her dark power through the reflections of Tokyo! Can the Sailor Senshi find a way to meet this overwhelming new challenge or is the world in for a new dark age?In this episode, we discuss the learning English in Japan. We also talk about junior boomers, Myler: The Real Enemy, bootleg "Just Shoot Me", domesticating the Outers, Charlie Chaplin suits, 3 Women and a Former Baby, Phantom 90, BASICheads, Lynchian vibes, being "filler-proof", World History movies, frenetic obstacles, le weed, Sailor Moon: Civil War, and being treated like a potato!Are you there, Takeuchi? It's me, Haruka.We're on iTunes and your listening platform of choice! Please subscribe and give us a rating and a review! Arigato gozaimasu!https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sailor-noob/id1486204787Answer this week's show question on Spotify!Become a patron of the show and get access to our live-action PGSM, Animedification, Utena, and Evangelion podcasts!http://www.patreon.com/sailornoobPut Sailor Noob merch on your body!http://justenoughtrope.threadless.comSailor Noob is a part of the Just Enough Trope podcast network. Check out our other shows about your favorite pop culture topics and join our Discord!http://www.twitter.com/noob_sailorhttp://www.justenoughtrope.comhttp://www.instagram.com/noob_sailorhttps://discord.gg/49bzqdpBpxBuy us a Kōhī on Ko-Fi!https://ko-fi.com/justenoughtrope

On this week's episode, we have actor Cynthia Mann Jamin (Friends, Ahh! Real Monsters, Angry Beavers and many many more) and we discuss her journey as an actor and director. We also talk about how the two of us met as well as what it's like working together. Tune in for so much more.Show NotesCynthia Mann Jamin IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0542699/Cynthia Mann Jamin on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/prime-video/actor/Cynthia-Mann/amzn1.dv.gti.ca37e830-61b1-44db-8fe5-979422acb482Cynthia Mann Jamin Shop: https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/A Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptCynthia Mann Jamin:If it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase. And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. I have a very special guest today, the very beautiful and talented, I'm going to call her Cynthia Mann, although she's now currently Cynthia Mann Jamin and she's my wife and Cynthia. I met years ago, I was a writer on a show called Just Shoot Me, and she was the guest star and she was a working actor and she worked on many shows including she was a recurring on Friends. She had, I dunno, five or so or six episodes on Friends Recurring on Veronica's Closet, Seinfeld, er Suddenly Susan Will and Grace, all those shows of the nineties, all those musty TV shows. She did almost all of them. And now she is the director and producer of my one man show as well as the audio book. So I thought a paper orchestra. So she did all of that. So I thought we would talk to her about that and about her experience working in Hollywood as well as directing and producing my audiobook for all of you people who aspire to do something similar. Hello, Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Hi Michael.Michael Jamin:Hello. My beautiful wife. She's in the other room. We're pretending we live far apart, but actually we live very close to each other.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You could say we're roommates.Michael Jamin:This is my roommate, Cynthia. So thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, most of all for producing and directing my show. And I don't know, where do we begin? What should we start with?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think it's, the thing that's interesting is people might want to know how is it working together and why do we work together?Michael Jamin:I don't have an answer for that. You're cheap labor. That's why we work. I don't have to pay you. Why is that? Why we work together?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it's funny because it goes all the way back to when we were first dating. I think if you want to talk about that because Go ahead. Well, we love doing projects together.Michael Jamin:Projects, we call them projects. How the Canadians say It. Project,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, projects. And when we first met it was kind of like, well, we had this common interest of he's a writer, I'm an actor, but it's like you can't sit around all day and just write and act. So we would find common things that we like to take walks, we like to do hiking. I taught you about Run Canyon, you were running in the flats. And I'm like, what the hell are you doing? Why are you running in the flats? Why don't you run up a hill?Michael Jamin:I didn't realize you could. It was so steep. And then you said you ran it. So I said, oh, alright. I guess I could try running it. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Totally ran it. I ran it all the time. I had, I had really muscular legs. YouMichael Jamin:Did. ICynthia Mann Jamin:Know you did. Yeah. And I still do. But yeah, so we would find little things to do and I would take you around LA and get you lafy and teach you what Celestial seasoningsMichael Jamin:AndCynthia Mann Jamin:Stuff. Yes, teaMichael Jamin:Is and also Whole Foods and Mrs. Gooch's. Mrs.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Gooch's. Yeah. This is way back. WeMichael Jamin:Would go to all this. She didn't approve of the supermarkets that I went to. So youCynthia Mann Jamin:Can go in there. I'm not going to get my food there you there though.Michael Jamin:And so many ways You helped me a lot with art because you are an artist. You were a starving artist when I met you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Oh yes. Yeah. Well, barely getting by. I would say would barely getting by. I've had every survival job you can think of. I've done singing telegrams with the monkey that goes like this, and I've done sold shoes and I've waitressed and I've done a million survival jobs. So in my thirties I finally started to get acting jobs and I was a professional dancer for a while. And Grit didn't go to college right away, only finished two years of it. Later in my thirties when I met Michael, I was going to college and working and going on auditions and all of that. And when I met Michael, it was one of those crazy auditions where the casting director, Deb Burki, who I'm forever grateful for, she brought me in just to the callback. She didn't even read me first because we had had a relationship and she always appreciated my work and thought, oh, this is good for Cynthia.Let me just bring her in straight to the producers. And I remember Steve Levitan was there, probably Andy Gordon and Eileen because it was their episode and Eileen Khan and I got that job. She called me the next day and just said, yeah, you got it. And I was like, oh, yay. I'm so excited. And they only booked me for three days. So when I went on the set, it was at Universal because I didn't really know what Just Shoot Me was. It was a new show and I don't think it was airing yet. It was just the first six episodes. So nobody really knew what it was about or the tone or anything. And I just went in, did my scene, went home prepared to come back the next day for shoot day. Really? And you guys sent me a script at nine in the morning or something like that and said, we rewrote your scene because we found a better way to write this scene. I don't know, you can tell me the behind the scenes of that. I don't really know why you did that.Michael Jamin:I don't really remember why that was rewritten. It was a long time ago.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I think it was. Maybe it just wasn't exciting enough or something. And you wanted the dialogue to be between me and Laura more.Michael Jamin:I don'tCynthia Mann Jamin:Remember. Instead of the roommate. And so you guys had me into the writer's room before, which is very unusual. You never really go into a writer's room to work out a scene. But because we were shooting it that day and we had to go straight to the run through and I think the network was going to be there. You didn't want to mess around. And so you gave me notes and we rehearsed it and Laura was there and the other scene partner who, I'm so sorry, I forgot his name. Chris,Michael Jamin:I want to say.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, Chris. And then we just went and shot it. And then I shoot the scene at night and I'm like, oh my God, this was so much fun. And it was great. And I'm like, all right, I'm going to go. And who's standing right next to me as I'm walking off the set and kind of hanging back and it was you.Michael Jamin:It was me,Cynthia Mann Jamin:It was you.Michael Jamin:And then you said you wanted to marry me. I said, I don't even know you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:I complimented your tie. That's right. And then you said, I did a really nice job. Yeah, you did. And I said thank you. And then we were talking about, I think you said, so what do you like to do for fun? Or something like that. Yeah. We went and I asked you that and you said you swing dance. And I had already been swing dancing at the Derby many times with my friend Brendan. And we would go and swing dance. SoMichael Jamin:MyCynthia Mann Jamin:Knees went weak when youMichael Jamin:That's right. I took, it was either you or Brendan I took you.Cynthia Mann Jamin:So then long story short, there was a couple of weeks that went by and you called me and said, hi, this is Michael. And I said, I don't remember that name, but you're making it up because he has that name. And then you said, no, it's me and I would like to take you out for coffee. And I said, I don't drink coffee. I drink tea.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had tea instead.Cynthia Mann Jamin:He said, that's okay, huh?Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Right.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And then I remember this, Michael, on our first date, I hung back in my car because I think I saw you walk in. I'm like, I got to be a little late. I got to make him wait for me a little bit. So I made you wait just a little bit. And then I go in and the woman comes and says, so do you want a chocolate chip or oatmeal cookie, highland grounds? And it's not there anymore, I don't think. And you took the longest time figuring out what flavor you wanted. For me it was easy. It was chocolate chip or peanut butter. That was the other one. And then you go, I go, why did it take you so long to order the cookie? And you go, because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be gained by lying.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I was trying to impress you with the choice of cookies.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Weirdest thing anyone said to me that you cared enough about. The cookie choice is crazy.Michael Jamin:And then we've been together ever since.Cynthia Mann Jamin:We've been together ever since. And to go back to the projects, we started with tiling a table that now our daughter has at her college apartment. And that was our first project. And then we decided to have kids, and that was our second project.Michael Jamin:ThenCynthia Mann Jamin:I started my business Twirly Girl, which I ran for 15 years. Still going, but not as big. And you helped me with that. You wrote all my commercials and did all of that. And then you wrote a book and then I'm helping you with that. So I think we're better when we're working together, honestly.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Cynthia Mann Jamin:I do. I think it's, when I was doing Twirly Girl and you were working as a writer and all of that, we never really connected on any kind of common ground aside from the kids because you were always doing your thing. I was doing my thing. But then when you started to write the commercials, I think our relationship went to another level because it's like you're appreciating the other person for their gifts and what they bring to you. But it's also like you're helping me with something that really means a lot to me. And it was like this back and forth that just felt so great. And I trusted you more than anyone to put me in the best light. And I think that's the same with you trusting me with your words because I care about them and I want to present you in the best light and I'll work tirelessly to get it.Michael Jamin:And you have produce the audio book and you had to learn how to do all that. What do you have to tell people? What do you have to share? What wisdom can you share with people on starting something like this?Cynthia Mann Jamin:I would say, and I was talking to Lola about this last night, and what occurred to me was that when you have the pinch or you have the idea, just the idea to do something and it's filling you with a lot of joy and passion and it almost creates its own engine in you, and you just feel so motivated to attack it and see if you can accomplish it. It almost doesn't matter if anybody else likes it because it's something you need to do. And I felt that way with my business. I remember creating these dresses and going, I know they're special. I know they are so special. And I don't even, the icing on the cake is that other people love them, but that's not why I'm doing itm doing it because I need to do it. And it's bringing me so much joy and it's fulfilling something in me that was missing or that I didn't even know that I needed.And it brought me so much that I could have more than I could have ever thought, oh, I'm going to make dresses because it's going to give me a sense of self. It's going to fire that entrepreneurial spirit. It's going to make me feel connected to those around me. I'm going to share my story about it. I couldn't have thought that I just followed the desire to make something. And then all these things kind of cascaded. And that's what I'm telling you. That's how I feel about the audio book. When you said, all right, you're going to direct and you're also going to edit it and you're going to do all these things, I'm like, I don't know how to do Pretty much, I knew how to direct because of the acting background, but I didn't know how to do an audiobook. We didn't know how we wanted this to come into the world and what it would look like. But I felt that desire, that same joy to just achieve this. And we love it and we know we did an amazing job, and the fact that it's resonating with other people is icing on the cake because we couldn't not do it.Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn a lot of skills to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I think I love, I'm one of those people that loves learning by doing. You would tell me, watch the videos on how to do it. And I was like, this is not going to go anywhere for me because I'm not going to retain it unless I need it. If I need to know how to do something, then I'm going to learn it. So I learned by doing it. And that process is so exciting to me because I know that I'm also growing as a person if I can accomplish something really hard that I don't think I know how to do or I've never done before. So that challenge is also really gratifying for me.Michael Jamin:And now there's the next challenge, which is taking it on the road.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And we have no clue how to do that either. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We'll figure it out. I guess we'll just make it happen.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah,Michael Jamin:It's really just about putting your energy into something and then watching as things start falling into place.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Exactly. You don't know what you don't know, but you'll find it out. And then that thing will lead to another thing. And we have very different styles. You and I, what my sense of what you do, and you tell me what you think mine is, but my sense of what your approach is is you throw a hundred percent of your energy into thinking about it, and you're almost like tunnel vision. You have to be so hyperfocused on it until you get it to where you want it to be and nothing distracts you. What do you think my style is? I'm just, is that I have that right?Michael Jamin:I'm not really sure. I guess so I'm not really sure I, I guess I work on it until I'm done.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it is like you have this hyper focus about it. And for me, I kind of feel guilty if I'm not like you just sitting at the computer and studying it and figuring it out, then to me, I have to walk away and I have to kind of let it settle. And then I have to really check in with my intuition in a way and go, okay, what's the next right move? Where do I need to spend my energy is just spinning my wheels, trying to figure it out, doesn't work for me. And I feel like you are good at that. You're good at like, okay, I'm going to figure this out. And you just keep working it and working it kneading the dough. And for me, I have to leave it and come back to it.Michael Jamin:All of it was every single part of it. None of it's easy. I don't know why people expect it to be easy. We all want it to be easy, but it never is. The creating of it is never easy. And then the marketing of it, putting it out there and getting people to, that's half the battle.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I think the main thing that we discovered, and I think you working with Twirly Girl really helped you with this project because you saw how being authentic and really communicating with your audience in a very real way resonates. And there's no other way to do it because how could you post every single day if it wasn't something that was organic for you, it would be torture, trying to become this person that you think other people want to see, or you got to position yourself like this other person over here. But it really is about finding your unique voice because that's all we have. There's a million books out there. There's a million dresses. I created dresses. There's a million of them. We don't need another one. But what we don't have is the dress that I can make. What we don't have is the book that you can write. And I think leaning into that perspective is really, really empowering and crucial to the creative process.Michael Jamin:We would speak a lot. We would go on walks and speak a lot about, in the beginning we would talk about what the function of art is, what's the expectation and what the market is. I remember talking about, because David Sedaris is the one who inspired me to write this. I love his writing. And it's the same genre, personal essays, and I remember talking to you, but we know what he writes. People love, we know there's a market for it. So I be doing that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I, but he's kind of paved the way, and that was inspiring. I think inspiration is so healthy, and that's what you were inspired by. But the whole thing that you talk about is finding your voice, and it took you a while to find the rhythm. And people, when they read it, they're never going to confuse David s and Michael Jamin. They're never going to, because your background in TV gave you this whole different way of going into a story and entertaining an audience. And that's just in your blood. It's in your makeup, it's just who you are and the details of everything that you write. It reads like a film or cinematically because there's no moment in there where it's not leading to something elseMichael Jamin:You are listening to. What the hell is MichaeliJamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, we'll find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.Michael Jamin:I wish it was a genre that was easier to explain to people, because when people say, what's your story? What's a book about? I have to try to explain, well, it's personal essays, but it's not an essay. Essay sounds like homework. It's not a memoir because I'm not important that it's my memoir. They're stories, but they're true. But what is that? It'd be just so much easier if I could say, well, it's YA fantasy or something. And people go, oh, okay. I know what young adult fantasy is, but it's not that. And so that's part of the uphill struggle that we have is explaining to people, getting people to understand enough just to take a chance and read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But I think letting people catch up to what is what's important, what it is, is important because you're assuming that you have to spell it out for people. And I'll equate it again to Tuley Girl, the dresses I made were so hard to explain. And we were like, but it's not this. It's not fantasy, but you can wear it every day. And I had about 5,000 different taglines because I couldn't communicate it. And then finally you came up with the most amazing explanation of what it was after probably about eight years of doing it, which was, whatMichael Jamin:Was it? You could say it. You could say it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, we don't create dresses. We create your favorite childhood memory. Happy childhood. We're creating happy memories,Michael Jamin:Happy childhood memories.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Dress isn't just a,Michael Jamin:You got it wrong. We create happy childhood memories. That's whatCynthia Mann Jamin:It was. Right? Happy childhood. Well, I've had a year doing the audiobook, so 12 Girls in the Distance there.Michael Jamin:But that was another thing I remember. We saw a wonderful special by this guy named Derek DelGaudio called In and of itself, it's a wonderful, it was on Hulu. It was like a one-time special, basically like an hour long or something.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, it started as aMichael Jamin:Stage play. It started as a stage play. But when I tell people, when I try to describe what it's about, it's almost impossible to describe. And that's part of the problem. It's hard. It was such a uniquely wonderful experience, but it's impossible to tell people to describe it because it's its own thing.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, I But you would say it's a one man show and a very unique experience,Michael Jamin:But there's magic and it's participation, but it's not magic. It's something else.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, it's not a magic show.Michael Jamin:No, it's not a magic show. So it's really hard to, putting something in a box makes it easier to sell because people can understand what the box is. And I feel like that's part of the struggle I have with a paper orchestra, which is, and everyone who reads it, they love it, but they still don't understand what it is until they actually read it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But see, I think what you have on the cover is perfect. It's true stories about the smallest moments that you sometimes forget. What if the smallest moments were the ones that meant the most? So that says everything to me. That's all I need to know.Michael Jamin:That's what the book is. It's just about, hey, here's a small moment in life where I point out, which easily you could have forgotten about because it's so small. And it turns out, if you look back at that moment, everything changed because of it.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And I love that you talk about the fact that it's really not about, you have to have these catastrophic or monumental things happen to you to be a changed person. Most of us don't have those huge, huge moments and so tender and intimate about it and relatable because you didn't come from an unusual background. You're pretty average with child of divorce. That's kind of average for our job, do.Michael Jamin:So those are the kind of stories that I tell, and I said before, I really don't think the stories are my stories. The details are mine, but I'm really trying to tell your story. But maybe you haven't figured out how to do that. But I do that because I'm a writer, so I know how to do that.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, yeah. And I think we're just, it's nice that we're able to work well together in so many ways. And I think it really does stem from having that deep respect for each other's gifts, and we're able to really be very upfront with each other when we don't like something or when we question it. And I'm not married to my way doing it my way. I'm really looking at the bigger picture. I want a paper orchestra to be great. What's going to serve that? And I think we both have that in mind. And in terms of the tour and taking it on the road, I mean, I think you're more than ready to perform it. And I'm so excited for people to be able to experience it in that way as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a different kind of, that's why, because the show, it is a theatrical show. And I do think there's something more intimate about, people say, can't you record it and play it? Yeah, I could, butCynthia Mann Jamin:Well, that's the audio book. But that audio book is going to be different.Michael Jamin:But in terms of even recording the stage show, you'll miss the intimacy of being right in front of me, being in the room and feeling the energy. You don't feel the energy. That's probably the thing with tv, it's great. It's a wonderful form, but you don't have the same energy as you do seeing live theater. And I wish there's a better way because many people don't want to see live theater, but it's different. It's a different experience. Good theater is great. Bad theater is terrible. That's why it runs the whole gamut. There's that expression. Nothing lasts forever except for bad theater, and that's because of the energy. So it goes both ways.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And when we were working together on the audiobook the first time, we were trying to convey that performance that we do live. And after listening to it again and showing, having our daughter, Lola, listen to it, and her listening to literally the first three minutes, and I had already edited the whole thing. She was like, oh no, this isn't, I can't, you got to bring it down. And we were like, yeah, I had a feeling because when I was editing it, I was like, I don't know. I dunno about this. We just got to see.Michael Jamin:Yeah, we had to do it again because we wanted the performance to be more intimate because you're listening to it on headphones or alone in the car, and it's a different, you're not listening it in a group of people, which is what the theater show is. So I'm literally in your head because you're wearing headphones. We had to bring everything down and make the performance much more intimate. It's a different, and we'll have to see how that affects my next performance with my live show.Cynthia Mann Jamin:You're totally different. I know, totally. But see, when you say we had to bring it down, I don't like saying it like that because it makes it sound like it's sleepy and it's not.Michael Jamin:You had to bring it moreCynthia Mann Jamin:Intimate. But it's like I really wanted, it's more like you contained the energy. They took this kind of energy that needs to project out, and we harnessed it and shoved it into a little two 12 by 12 area inches.Michael Jamin:But this is all acting stuff that I could not have done without you because you're an actor. I have couldn't have figured this out on my own, I don't think.Cynthia Mann Jamin:No, I think it would've been really hard because your tendency when you would just start to read it before I would kind of steer you in the right direction or go, oh, you're going down the wrong path. Let me take you over here. That's pretty much all I needed to do in those moments. But your natural tendency was to just start reading it. And I'm like, where are you? I don't hear your personality. I'm not engaged in the story because you are not connected to it. So it really required the same amount of energy, Michael, that does for you to do this on stage, but you had to have the same amount of energy but contain it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, it's a whole different art to it, not an actor. So I had to learn how to do, how perform it to keep people engrossed in it. So I dunno, it's a fun performance. We want to travel because this is what we want to do next. We want to travel together and put it up and continue. So if anyone wants to come see it, you can go to michael jamin.com/upcoming and enter your city, and then we'll let you know. When we get to your city, we're figuring out how to, this is the next thing we're figuring out how to actually make it happen so we can do this effectively. Bring it to people's, bring the theater because it's a whole, again, people will say to me, whoa, can you sell it as a tv? Maybe it could be a TV show, maybe it could be a movie. And I'm always thinking about, why can't it just be a book? Why can't it be an audio book? Why can't it be a theatrical show as if TV or movies is somehow better than the experience that we're creating now? I don't think it is. And I work in television and film, I don't think it's better.I think there's a betterness to what we have.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, there's a pureness to it. There's something very simple and pure and the pacing of it. Everything is consumed so quickly right now, and it's almost too much. It's just too much. And what this does is it helps us to slow down. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There's a power in the pause. There's so much energy that you can portray. This is something that took me a while to have confidence to do, but you can act. You're talking, you're saying you're doing whatever, the whole dog and pony show, but in leaving that pause and saying nothing, there's this anticipation and the audience is just waiting for it. And it's like a loaded gun.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah. I don't like that analogy, but what is it? Well, it's like you're on the edge of your seat and you've got us in your hands, and we're just captive. We're a captive audience. Time stands still. Time stands still, and we're just with you. And it really is allowing our being to kind of just be in that moment. It crystallizes the moments. And those are the moments in theater that why it's so impactful is because we're in this communal experience together where we're experiencing time at the same time, and we're also being together at the same time. It's very profound. And I remember working with you on the audio book and you were really hesitant to take us with you. I remember that. I kept saying, take us with you, Michael. It was like, but I'm going too slow or I'm going too fast. Or it was like, it didn't matter. The pacing. I would arbitrarily tell you, take us with you. And you would say, but I am. I go, yeah, but even if you're slow, or even if you're fast, the intention is to connect with us and make sure that we're with you. And it's hard on an audiobook because there's no audience, but with an audience, you can feel.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But with the audience too, I'm in front of a bright light. I don't see them. I can sense them, but I can't see anybody. ButCynthia Mann Jamin:That's what's important is you sensing it. You can totally sense it. You can sense it because you can hear the Oh or that, or you can hear laugh, or you can hear the silence is different than a regular silence. It's like a pin drop.Michael Jamin:There's that moment at the end of the Marissa disclaimer where I confess to something and the audience is so disappointed. I remember the first time we performed it, they were just like, oh,Cynthia Mann Jamin:We all go. OhMichael Jamin:Yeah. Everyone was so disappointed in me. But that's so effective about it, is that they were along for the ride. And yeah, and that's another thing. You gave me a couple of things that helped me before each show. You printed out Ellie Zen's, what is it called?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Letter to the actor.Michael Jamin:Letter to the actor. And I read it before where I talk about, where he talks about what my responsibility is to the audience as a performer, what my responsibility is. And so it doesn't feel, it's not like, because it can come off as being self-absorbed acting. It could come off as being narcissistic. Look at me. But you can't look at it that way. You have to look at it as this is what I have to do in order to give you what you want,Cynthia Mann Jamin:A gift. You have to give the audience a gift, and you have that responsibility to leave it all on the stage. And when you're an actor, it's no longer about you, Michael. It's about the words on the page. And you need to fulfill those words on the page. And as an actor, we're taught that the words are sacred. We don't change the words. We don't try and outthink the words. They are everything. And our job is to bring that to life and bring ourselves to the piece.Michael Jamin:And it's exhausting, though, at the end of the show. It is exhausting. Don't people appreciate how much energy I have to be in every moment so as not to check out or phone in, or just at the end of the night, I'm exhausted from an hour show. It's like, God,Cynthia Mann Jamin:And you're not expected. It's impossible in a way. And the greatest actors will say this too, that it is a job. So what do you do if you're not feeling it? And in that moment, you're thinking about what you're going to have for dinner, or, oh my God, I can't wait to just go home and lie down because it requires so much energy. And what you do is you go with that truth inside. I don't even want to be here right now. You use the truth of what you're feeling in that moment, and that brings you back into the piece. You have to connect to something real. Whereas if you're denying it and you're going, oh my God, I suck right now. I need to force myself to have this energy, then you're going to overcompensate and you're going to force it. And it's not going to be truthful. But if you really go into the moment of like, ah, damn, I'm just, I got nothing. I feel nothing. How does that make you feel? Feels pretty shitty. All right. I'm just going to say the next line from this place, because this is where I'm at. And then it takes off. Then you're off again. I mean,Michael Jamin:But what if the line, you're not supposed to feel shitty onCynthia Mann Jamin:It. The audience buys it because the audience knows truth. As long as you're truthful, we're going to take however you read it and go, oh, that must be what that means. Oh, the character must feel this way. They're not going, oh, Michael.Michael Jamin:But the character is not supposed to feel the character's excited to be at a party,Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it could look like this. Oh my God, I am so excited to be here. It could look really intense and focused when I'm feeling like God damnit, I'm not feeling anything. Instead of the idea of, oh my God, and I'm so happy to be here. Why does it have to come out that way? Even if I came out and was like, I'm really excited to be here. What does that come out? It could come across. I'm a little nervous or I'm excited. I'm afraid to showMichael Jamin:It. But it feels truthful. You're saying?Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yes, as long as it's rooted in some kind of truth, the audience will interpret it however it needs to go with theMichael Jamin:Story. This is some high level directing shit for people,Cynthia Mann Jamin:Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think a lot of it to me is very, how I was trained was always going with what is. And you hear a noise, somebody, it's not about everybody being quiet all the time and ohMichael Jamin:My God. So what happens if you hear a noise backstage during your show,Cynthia Mann Jamin:You incorporate it. Even if you don't want to draw attention to it, you as the actor, because the audience is all going to hear it. So if you hear that, I have to just kind of go, all right, I don't have to comment on it. I just have to take that moment and allow it to be there. Because again, if you deny it,Michael Jamin:But doesn't that break the fourth wall? If you hear a banging backstage and then you turn your head and you acknowledge it, it's backstage.Cynthia Mann Jamin:But it could be if you're the character and you hear something backstage, that's the world you're in. It could be in the next room.Michael Jamin:You have to, if you don't acknowledge it, if you don't acknowledge, it's like, well, why aren't they acknowledging?Cynthia Mann Jamin:And then there's a giant elephant in the room and stuff like props falling over. Oh my God. There'd be the worst thing an actor could do. One of the worst things is like their hat falls off and it's not supposed to fall off. And the whole time it's sitting in the middle of the stage, the audience is worried about the hat. Now we're going to be thinking about the hat. So the worst thing an actor can do is to deny that the hat fell off. You know what I mean? Use it. Use all of it. All it is for the moment to fuel you. And sometimes the best. When I was on friends, David Schwimmer and I were rehearsing our scene. You did a bad thing. Very bad. Very, very bad. Yes, I know that scene. And we were rehearsing it and we screwed up, but we didn't sit there and go, oh, wait a minute.We screwed up the line. Let's take it back. No, you just go with it. And Marta and David, the show creators were standing right off to the side, and they're like, wait a minute, guys, what happened there? It was like, yeah, we screwed up the lines. Well, that's going in. We're going to do it that way now. And so the best, the happy accidents are when you don't plan it and you're going with it. And Michael, you have some amazing moments in the audio book where you can't speak. You're so full of emotion that you can't speak. And I've listened to it a number of times in my car, and my heart goes into my throat because I can't see you. And a lot of times I don't remember. It always catches me by surprise that that moment is happening. And I think, oh my God, did the audio track drop out? Because there's such a stillness. And then all of a sudden you come back in and your next line is just, you can barely even talk. And that resonates through the frigging speaker. We're not even seeing you. That's how powerful our emotion is if we just allow it to take us and to trust it. And it's transformative. ItMichael Jamin:Really is a time machine for me, because when I'm retelling those stories, it's like I'm living it again. Again. And people, the funny thing is, people after that show, when I do this, some of those stories, people are worried about me.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, yeah. Because that's what IA Kaza talks about, is you just leave it all on the stage. Yeah. Because why else are you there? Why are you there? If you're not going to go there, then why are you there?Michael Jamin:That's why I feel like one of the things that I like about personal essays, which is so hard to explain to people, but when they read it, they get it. Is that a novel? The characters are made up. They're fictitious. And the worst thing that can happen to your charact, they'll die. But again, they're just made up, so everything's fine. Your favorite made up character just had something horrible. Again, they're just made up. But with these personal essays, I feel the stakes are higher. I feel like it's a unique art form because the stakes, it's a real person telling real stories about themselves. The stakes are higher because they're not made up.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And that's the beauty of you performing your own work too, is that you can really shine in that way. You don't have to worry about becoming a character, putting something on, but I think it is hard for you because you have to psyche yourself up to really go there. It's like your energy has to be up. You have to be willing to investigate that. And if you're not feeling it, you got to go with the truth that you're not feeling it it. Then see where that leads you. It's scary.Michael Jamin:It's also, the funny thing is I don't really have any desire to do anybody else's to act in someone else's show. I don't have a desire to become an actor. It's just really more like I have a desire to pursue this art.Cynthia Mann Jamin:And why do you feel the pinch to want to perform it? And I've asked you this in the end of the audio book too, but it's not so much. What is it in you that needs to be seen and heard, orMichael Jamin:I'm not entirely clear on it. I just want to, I suppose it's because, and I'm very happy. I've had a long and successful career as a TV writer, but part of me also feels like there's just something missing from what I write.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's similar to when I was a dancer. I was like, I need more expression than this. I have to act now because dancing just is part of the expression, but it's not allowing me to fully express everything. So maybe performing is part of that for you. It's not enough to just have people read it or listen to it. You want to experience it with them. You need that connection, that expression.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I guess. And I also, I kind of want to just do something special. That's all. Because I wonder sometimes before when I go on, I go, why am I doing this? I just want to create something special that people will like. And I think people get it from the book and the audio book, so it's not necessary. I don't think it's necessary for me to perform, but maybe it's a plus. I don't know.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah. I think more will be revealed as they say. You'll see why. And that's another thing about following those creative impulses. I know because I have this hindsight with Twirly Girl, after doing it for 15 years, I can honestly look back and say that I would've never expected to have experienced what I experienced in the way that all the gifts that it brought me, there's no way I could have predicted that. And I think it's the same thing here. You just don't know where it's going to lead you, but you feel the need to do it. And I think that's enough. I think that's all you need, honestly. It takes on a life of its own too.Michael Jamin:Yeah. We'll see where it goes, but we'll just put energy into it and see where it goes.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yes. Onto the next project. But this project now,Michael Jamin:Well, maybe that, is that where we conclude this podcast? Is there anything else to cover?Cynthia Mann Jamin:I don't know. I don't know anything else for you.Michael Jamin:I don't know. I'm very grateful for all your help doing this. I couldn't do any of this without you. And for everyone listening, it really helps if you have someone helping you with whatever your project is, it does help a lot. And so you have to find the right person, whoever that is.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Well, I'm so grateful for you and everything that you've brought me, and this is just a joy and everything I want it to be. It is. And I'm so happy to be working with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you're sweet. Alright, everyone, there you go. A paper orchestra signed copies are available@michaeljamin.com. You can also find the link to the paperback, the ebook, the audiobook, the audiobooks on Audible, Spotify, and Apple. It's called The Paper Orchestra, produced and directed by Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Yeah, but here's the thing, guys. If you want to see him in person, we would love to meet you. So keep in touch with us.Michael Jamin:Yeah, sign up at michael jamin.com/upcoming. Okay, everyone, thank you again. Thank you, Cynthia.Cynthia Mann Jamin:Thank you, Michael. I love you.Michael Jamin:I love you.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again, another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

On December 8th, I hosted a webinar called “What “Do Showrunners Look For In A Script,” where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Well, no one cares that you took my course, so zero. No one's going to be. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about? Is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not?Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, welcome to a very special episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about. I'm here with my guest host Kevin Lewandowski, and he helps out a lot with the podcast, with all my social stuff, and he's actually by trade. He's a writer's assistant script coordinator, which is actually one step higher than writer's assistant, so he's worked on a bunch of shows. Kevin, welcome to the show.Kevin Lewandowski:Thank you for having me. Michael, for those of you, sorry I'm not Phil, I'm just kind of filling in for Phil for a couple days, but I'm excited to be here. And yeah, I hope to tell you all a little bit about script coordinating as well and what that all entails,Michael Jamin:Fill in and fulfill, fillKevin Lewandowski:In and fulfill.Michael Jamin:What shows were you script coordinator on?Kevin Lewandowski:So the big one was Why Women Kill.Michael Jamin:Did we ever figure out why?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, depending on who you ask, a lot of women will say because of men,Michael Jamin:They kill for ratings.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Okay, that's better. But yeah, that was, I forgot how long ago that was, but that was, unfortunately we got canceled four or five days before we were supposed to start filming. Our actors had just landed in Canada and then the next day they announced they were pulling the plug on the show.Michael Jamin:Why?Kevin Lewandowski:It could be many reasons. I think a lot of it had to do with we were a little bit behind on scripts and then budgeting and we were still kind of in the midst of covid precautions and things like that.Michael Jamin:Covid, people don't realize, especially new showrunners, you don't mess with the budget. You get things done on time, Ross, you're screwed. What other shows did you work on then?Kevin Lewandowski:So the first show I ever worked on was in 2015. It was the Muppets, and it was funny. I thought if anyone ever caught a break, this is my break. I was like, it's the Muppets, it's going to go on for five or six years and I'm just going to notch up every year. And after 16 episodes, that one got canceled.Michael Jamin:What's Ms. Piggy really like?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, she is who she is. Difficult. Yeah, she's difficult. She's a bit of a diva. We have to had to cater to all of her needs.Michael Jamin:What about, I'm sorry, and what were the other shows? Screw Miss Piggy. Yeah,Kevin Lewandowski:Screw Miss Piggy. So after that, a bunch of pilots that never got picked up, and then I worked for a show on Netflix called The Ranch with AshleyMichael Jamin:ElementKevin Lewandowski:That was a live audience show and I was there for two seasons. I'm trying to think after that. It's all becoming a blur. I did two seasons of Why Women Kill. Actually the first year I was a line producer's assistant, and so that was interesting to kind of see the financial side of things and see where they decide to put the money in. And then for season three, they moved me to Script coordinator,Michael Jamin:But the Branch was a legit show. That was a big show.Kevin Lewandowski:That was a lot of fun because I'd always wanted to work in the Multicam world. There's just something about show night and it's just kind of a big party for everyone and you get to see the audience's instant gratification. It's just a lot of fun. A lot of fun to work on those shows.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well now the next thing for us to do is try to get you into one of these jobs so you don't have to co-host with me all the time on thisKevin Lewandowski:Podcast. I don't mind co-hosting with you.Michael Jamin:Oh, all right. Well, we'll see if you feel that way at the end. Okay, that's fair. So we are doing, this is a special q and a. We do these monthly webinars or whatever, every three weeks actually, and we have a lot of questions we can't answer. And so we save 'em for the podcast. And now Kevin's going to feed them to me. He's going to regurgitate them to me. He's going to baby bird them into my mouth, and then I'm going to try to answer them as best I can.Kevin Lewandowski:Early Bird gets the worm or something like that.Michael Jamin:Gross. Kevin Gross.Kevin Lewandowski:And I apologize in advance for anyone's name I might butcher.Michael Jamin:It's okay. They don't need to. I mean whatever if you get 'em wrong. Okay,Kevin Lewandowski:So these first few questions are going to be kind of course related questions. The first one is from Dat Boy, D-A-T-B-O-I. And that person's asking, what are the best tips for making my script shine more than the rest?Michael Jamin:Oh boy. Well, I wish he would. Well, he was already at my free webinar. I wish he would sign up for my course. I mean, that's what the course is. The best tips for making it shine is making sure your act breaks pop, making sure the dialogue feels fresh, your characters are original. I mean, there's no tips. It's not a tips thing. It's 14 hours of, let me tell you how to do it. That boy, I wish. What do you think, Kevin? What's your answer for him?Kevin Lewandowski:I think it's one of the things you always say on your webinars is after taking my course, you'll just hear me yelling in your head all the time about this is your end of act two moment, this is this, this is that. And I can vouch for that and say, anytime I'm looking through a script or even watching a TV show, because of your course and just understanding the story structure, you get those spider senses like, oh, the raising the stake should be coming very soon. Now we're about halfway through the episode, so something better be changing here. And I think it's just, again, everything you say in your course of just knowing those beats when they need to hit how they need to pop will help set your script ahead of amateur writers.Michael Jamin:You're a good student, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Thanks.Michael Jamin:Alright, what's next?Kevin Lewandowski:So km phs, when I say I don't have experience, but I have a killer pilot and I took Michael Jamin's course. How much of a difference is the course going to make in terms of being a desirable hire?Michael Jamin:No one cares that you took my course. So zero no one's. That's why we don't give a diploma out because the diploma is worthless. No one really cares if you went where you studied, who taught you all they care about, is the script good or not? Does it make them want to turn the page or not? Do they want to find out what happens next or not? So I wish I could give you a better answer than that, but it's not the degree. The degree isn't worth anything. Hopefully the knowledge is worth something.Kevin Lewandowski:I think the analogy I have in my head of your courses, I look at scripts I wrote before taking your course, and it's like when you look back at high school photos and I had the Frosted tips, the pca, shell, necklace, hoop earring, and at the time it was cool. And now you look back and it's like it's pretty cringe-worthy. It's pretty cringe-worthy to see those photos. And now after taking your course, I feel like it's like now I'm wearing a suit and I don't have the poop hearing and I don't have the frosted tips, and I'm not as cringe-worthy when I look back at some of the scripts I wrote a year or so ago.Michael Jamin:Good, good. All right, good. Very good. Impressing me more and more, Kevin.Kevin Lewandowski:Right? Next question. Ous. I'm butchering that one. Nope,Michael Jamin:Perfectly. That's how he says his name.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. What are the most important things an inspiring writer should be aware of while reviewing one script before sending it to an established executive or writer?Michael Jamin:God, it's pretty much the same answer as all the other ones. It's like, do your act breaks, pop? Is it fresh? The dialogue, I'm sorry, but it's the same answer, so I don't really have anything to say. Yeah, yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, mal. Yay.Michael Jamin:Exactly.Kevin Lewandowski:In a 26 page pilot is page 11 two, late for the first act break, second act break or second act being on page 20.Michael Jamin:On the 26 page script, the first back page is on 11, is that what they said?Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's not terrible. I've seen worse things. I'm assuming it's a single space. It's not terrible. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Colin Miller, what is a good system to practice writing every day? I like this question.Michael Jamin:A good system, a good system. I don't know why you like it, because I'm stumped. I mean, I would just say write a good system is to, I'm most creative in the morning, so that's when I want to write and I try to do my busy work in the evening stuff that's easier, but you might be a night owl, but I would just carve out time every day and just sit down at the computer and write. And don't be so precious that no one's going to look at your first draft. That first draft can be terrible, so don't just get it on paper. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think a lot of maybe misconceptions people have is writing every day isn't necessarily open up final draft and typing something. Sometimes it's going on a walk for an hour and a half and thinking about the story you're trying to tell and laying out the beats in, I live in Glendale and there's a outdoor mall. It's fun to kind of just walk around there and people watch a little bit. And sometimesMichael Jamin:The Americana, that's where you go.Kevin Lewandowski:Yep. Right By the Americana.Michael Jamin:Are you in walking distance to thatKevin Lewandowski:Few blocks?Michael Jamin:Interesting. Okay. Alright. You'd like to go on the trolley.Kevin Lewandowski:I've never been on that trolley. I'm always afraidMichael Jamin:You like to ring the bell on trolley, Kevin. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:I'm always afraid it's going to hit someone.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I know.Kevin Lewandowski:I think takes up a lot of the bottom of the path.Michael Jamin:Yeah. AllKevin Lewandowski:Right. Next question. So NRS creates, I guess this is a question, it's more of a comment. It said, agreed. The course is changing the way I see all of my stories. Good, great.Michael Jamin:Great.Kevin Lewandowski:Christina Sini, who's a current student, and Michael Jamin's course, we learned to break and structure story well before writing those bits and pieces of a script glued together that we won't have to cling to anyone to make them fit. We basically learned how to build in order. I think that goes back to your analogy of laying the foundation first and doing, starting with the characters in beat sheets and then outlining and eventually getting to the physical writing of the script.Michael Jamin:Yeah, she's doing great, Christina. She's having a good amount of success early on, so I'm impressed.Kevin Lewandowski:Another very active person in the course, Laurie. John Michael's course is amazing. When you take the class, you also become of the Jam and Facebook community. We do table reads and give each other notes twice a month. Writer sprints, Wednesday nights and mock writer's room. So anyone that's thinking about getting the course, we have this private Facebook group and it's a bunch of great people in there and we are all just trying to build each other up.Michael Jamin:It really is. It's impressive because when you look at some of the other Facebook groups, the screenwriting groups or on Reddit or groups, it's mostly people trying to tear each other down. But because this is private, I think they're not like that at all. It's a community, I think.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think that was a big thing for you because you said you were in some of those groups, and I think you even said you sometimes as a professional working writer, you would say something that people would attackMichael Jamin:You. Yeah. You don't, what are you talking about? Oh, alright. I happened once or twice. I was say, I'm done. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:All right. Next question. VV oral, is it worth it? And parentheses story structure is very detailed in your course, so I think maybe it's worth it, not is it worth it? Yeah. I think it's just more people praising about your course.Michael Jamin:Okay.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. Okay, now we have some craft questions. Good. From Mal mavey, they, again, is it okay to end a pilot on a cliffhanger?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's okay, but better not. You're really counting on the fact that anyone's going to care, so you're better. I think what the danger is, you may be writing towards this cliffhanger thinking that everyone's going to be so, oh my God, what's going to happen if you don't write? If all those pages beforehand aren't so great, no one's going to care what happens. And so a lot of people write towards this cliffhanger thinking, oh, aren't you going to be enthralled? And the answer is no, we don't care.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Yeah. I think trying to work backwards from that I think can be a disservice. And I think it's just you definitely don't want that cliffhanger to be more exciting necessarily than your act one break, because that's what we know what we're following. Lex Macaluso, once I have a great script, what are the practical steps to do?Michael Jamin:Well, once you have a great script, write another one for sure. And then you want to make sure you actually do have a great script. And you do that by showing it to people. And it doesn't have to be somebody in the industry. It could be a friend or a mother or someone whose opinion you trust. What do you think? And if they love it and they say, this is amazing, show me something else. You're onto something. But if they say, well, I like this part, or I like when this happened, or This is a good storyline, then that's not a great script. So you have to be honest with yourself. It's really, look, it's really hard to write a great script. Everyone assumes they have it and I don't assume I have it. So when I do my job really well, I might have a good script. A great script is really, you got to really hit it out of the park.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think just that idea of what is a great script, so arbitrary, and I think it's sticking to the story structure of what you teach in your course can help set your script apart from others.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And honestly, it is those things that I'm looking for. All the things that I say that when I'm reading a script, what I'm looking for and what I'm really looking for is I want a really good script. It doesn't even have to be great because a really good script stands out great or amazing is very rare. I mean, how often do you see a movie that's been made or a TV show and you go, this is a great script. Most of the time you're like, oh, this is really good.Kevin Lewandowski:So if you were reading a script, and let's say maybe the structure wasn't where you think it should be, but the characters were very compelling and the characters were witty with what they were saying. Would you still be okay with that? Or vice versa if maybe the characters was a little bit too much speaking on the nose, but the structure and everything was spot on with that.Michael Jamin:Years ago we hired on a show, we were running a show and we were reading a ton of scripts, and we got to one where Act one was really good. Act two was really good, and Act three was not very good. And we hired him anyway because we were thought at that point, I was like, he did the first two parts really well, I could fix, or we could fix Act three, not a problem. And so I think that says a lot. You do act one, walk two. That's a big deal. He's a young writer.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you see a pattern with a lot of writers starting out is Act two where they struggle the most? Or is it act three or is it,Michael Jamin:Listen, I don't make it to act two. If Act one isn't good, I don't read further. I get another script. If I get a stack of scripts, who cares about Act two? Fact One sucks.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Ben Miller, what screenplays are the best to read, to learn from perhaps the West Wing pilot, which I read in a screenwriting class?Michael Jamin:Well, it depends what you want to write. If you want to write drama, then maybe West Wing pilot, I haven't read it, but you can also learn from reading band scripts. You can say to yourself, if long as you're honest, why am I not interested in this? And if you know what to look for, why is the script not compelling? Is the dialogue, is it the act breaks? Do they now you'll know what to look for? And then the trick is to be honest with yourself. There's been times even in my early career where I might pitch something to my partner and he'll say, if you read that in a script and someone else's script, you'd say, that sucks. And I go, really? I thought it was good. He goes, no, no, you would say it sucks. So then at that point, you got to go, okay, you got to back off. And you don't fight for it. You got to be honest with yourself.Kevin Lewandowski:I think another amazing thing in today's world that didn't really exist when you start out is pretty much any show that's out there right now, you can get access to some version of the script, whether it was a writer's draft or a production draft. IsMichael Jamin:That true? How do you find them?Kevin Lewandowski:I mean, if you just go to Google and you type in Breaking Bad Pilot script, there's going to be versions that you can download. It's always interesting to read those scripts and then watch the first episode and see how much did they change? Because I doubt you'll be able to find necessarily the final shooting draft online, but those first couple writer's drafts are available. And it's always interesting just to see you're reading it and you really, really like this part, but then you watch the episode and they took it out. You're like, oh, okay. That's interesting thatMichael Jamin:If you really wanted up your game, you could also watch the pilot of Breaking Bag and type out the script while you're watching it and then read it later and look for what are the act breaks, literally, what are the act breaks? How do they work? What's the dialogue on that? What's the last line of every scene? What's the dialogue? At the last line,Kevin Lewandowski:When I was doing writer's assistant script coordinate stuff, that's what I used to do to type faster just sit and watch TV and just type out the script as it was happening.Michael Jamin:Wow, good forKevin Lewandowski:You. Because in the room, they don't like it when you say, Hey, can you slow down a little bit? Can I hear that again? No, you got to go.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Part, what advice would you offer writers to adapt to the inevitable changes in developments expected in the screenwriting field and then years to come? I'm assuming that's in the context of chat, GPT, ai, that kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Right now, that stuff is being regulated. I don't know of anybody who's using it in a writer's room. That's not to say I could easily be out of the loop, so I don't know. But right now, as far as I know, chat, GPT wasn't a tool. Any writer that I knew was clamoring for, because we all knew if it works, it's going to put us out of a job. So any changes? I don't know. I really don't know. I would just say maybe I'm naive, but stay the course. Figure out how to write without using a computer program or else, because if you're using the computer program, what do we need you for?Kevin Lewandowski:Right. Have you ever just to see what it would look like, just prompt, Chappie, just to write you a random scene just to see what it would look like, and then compare it to your knowledge you have of being a professional writer forMichael Jamin:Many years. Well, a couple of months ago, my partner decided to put some prompts into chat, GPT to come up with story ideas for Come FD for the show we were on. He just read 'em to me. We were both laughing at how terrible they were. It was like a paragraph of what's going to happen in this episode. And it was interesting how it was able to glean what the show was and what it was like, but it was just such an oversimplification of what the show, it lacked any nuance. It was kind of stupid. It was like, nah, that's not, I know. That's what it was almost like asking a 4-year-old what you think the show is and the four year olds. Yeah. Okay. You're right. It's about firemen. Okay, sure. But other than that, the ideas were terrible.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Another question from NRS creates, what are your thoughts on screenwriting competition websites like Cover Fly and the Blacklist? Is that a good way to get a script into people's hands? Thoughts on one act, scripts, one act plays? Do they have three acts?Michael Jamin:A lot of questions. I think you're the better person to answer the first part.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. So I've definitely submitted to some of those contests just to see A, if I would get any more B, what kind of feedback they would give. And a lot of times it's not very helpful feedback. And you've talked about, you have to question who these people are that are giving feedback, because chances are, they're not professional working writers right now. They would not have the time to go through 20, 30 scripts to give feedback. So chances are these could potentially be recent college graduates that are just doing what they think, what they learned in film school. And interestingly enough, I think Phil, he went through one competition. He sent me what the feedback was, and just reading it, I was like, this sounds very Chat, GPT ai. It was just very, because he sent me other ones he got, and I was like, okay, this feels like a person actually read this. This feels like it could have been put in chat, GPT, write a response based on what you think. And then when I said that to him, he was like, you might be right. He's like, you might be right. Interesting.Michael Jamin:Back when I was writing my book and I submitted to some publishers, whatever, a couple wrote back why they didn't like it, why they didn't want to option the book or whatever, and whatever. A couple of them, their feedback was like, no, it's clear to me you barely read it. Which I understand because these were low level publishing types editors. And on their weekend read, they probably had to read a couple dozen books, manuscripts, they're not going to give it full attention. And I was like, so some of the criticism, I was like, okay, that's a fair criticism. But no, but that is not, there's literally no truth in what you're saying there. You just phoned it in because you have to read so much over the weekend. So I don't know. Got to take, no one's going. I mean, it's the same thing for these websites. Are they really going to put their heart and soul into it? No. Why would TheyKevin Lewandowski:Don't care. They just want theMichael Jamin:Money. Yeah. Why would they? Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:You think about someone in your position giving feedback to a fellow writer that might take you two and a half hours, read the script, think about your notes, and then put 'em in a format to be able to explain them to the writer. And I don't think these people in those competitions are doing that. They probably just read it once and write down what they think. And it's funny how some of them, it's what would you rank the character dialogue on a one to 10, and they write six and a half. It's like,Michael Jamin:Where are you gettingKevin Lewandowski:That from? One is six and half. So then what would've gotten me an eight or an half or a nine?Michael Jamin:One of the things we just started doing on their website, if you have the course, our screenwriting course, I have a couple of friends who are high level writers who are willing to give notes. But here's the thing, you're going to pay. It's not cheap. You're going to pay these people to sit down and read your damn script for two or three hours and they're not getting $10 an hour. That's not what they're going to get. I don't know what you get paid for,Kevin Lewandowski:I guess. So is this a good way to get your script into people's hands? So I think, yeah, mean it's technically people's hands, but I don't know ifMichael Jamin:I don't think they're the right hands.Kevin Lewandowski:Feedback is going to be any valuable. And then thoughts on one X Scripts. One X plays, do they have three x inherently?Michael Jamin:That's an interesting question. Do they have three acts? I would say yes, in terms of the structure, in terms of what makes something compelling, but not necessarily, I guess I've written some stories in my book that don't fall into the traditional three Acts structure, but they come close. They definitely come close to it. And that's just because, well, it doesn't really matter why, but you can't go wrong. You really can't go wrong if you structure something like the way we teach.Kevin Lewandowski:So in your opinion, because heard, sometimes people use a five act structure, and I think for me, I think it's basically the same three act structure, but so act one will be act one, and then Act two isMichael Jamin:ActKevin Lewandowski:Two A and then Act two B. And so it's kind of broken up like that. So for me,Michael Jamin:Well, Shakespeare wrote that way. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:And he's all right. He did.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, I just think it's easier not to write. I just think three is easier to get your head around. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think just the thought of hearing the words, so writing five acts, that just sounds like it can be a lot, but if you could be like, oh, three acts, okay, I can do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Anyone could do that. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next topic, breaking in. DJ asked when starting out to obtain that experience, what sort of job should one be searching for, staff, writer, assistant, et cetera?Michael Jamin:You should be searching for the production assistant job anywhere, and eventually, after a season or two, see if you can move to a job that's closer to the writer's room. Physically, let's do what Kevin did. That's what he did.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think there's a staff writer that's obviously not entry level assistant. There's various assistant positions you could do production assistant, you can do showrunners, assistant executive assistant. I think one of the, or the terminologies people may get confused is writer's production assistant and then writer's assistant. And the writer's production assistant is the one that's responsible for getting the lunches, stocking the kitchen, making copies, things like that. And the writer's assistant is the one that sits in the room, types up the notes and the jokes that are being pitched. And they work closely with the script coordinator. And as you've said, many times, the writer's assistant is not an entry level job. It can be very intensive times.Michael Jamin:And for what's worth, I've worked with several assistants, either writer's, assistant production assistants, who've since gone on to become staff writers have had successful careers. So it's not like many. So Kevin, hopefully you'll be next.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I'm hoping so too. Next question, Sammy. ak. So the best way to get a foot in the door to support and learn the biz write in assistant or pa, we kind of just answer that. Yeah. Production assistant is that entry level. You're kind of just the gopher and you're the whatever they kind of need you go do, and you prove yourself to those people above you. And they notice. Notice people notice when you're either calling it in or you're really going above and beyond to make whoever's ahead of you life a little bit easier. Yeah. All right. Now we got some miscellaneous. Oh, here's a fun question. Tulio, how close are you to officially publishing your book, Michael,Michael Jamin:It's already out tulio. You can go get it. You can find it. Sign copies are available@michaeljamin.com slash book. Or you could search for a paper orchestra on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, or the audio book on Audible or Spotify or Apple. How about that?Kevin Lewandowski:Get the book. Everyone get the book. The comment to address from Jonathan Loudon, real world dilemma. I like this. Can't get experience without getting hired. Can't get hired without experience. That's why, who is such a reality?Michael Jamin:Well, but if you're starting off in an entry level position, you don't need to know anybody. You just have to put yourself out there. And then in terms of knowing someone later in your job, well, now you already know people. Now you broke because entry levels, literally, you have a pulse in a car. So I find that it's a convenient excuse. Put yourself out there, and Kevin, you didn't have any contacts when you broke into Hollywood. None. So there you go.Kevin Lewandowski:You just got to knock on some doors. I think people that work in the industry, they know kind of how it works. Once you break in, you become a pa, and you make those network connections with production coordinators that you've worked with and people on the show, and you build those genuine relationships and you do good. Then when they go to the next show and they're like, Hey, we need someone, then they'll reach out to you andMichael Jamin:They're not reaching out for you because they're as a favor to you. They're reaching out to you because we need to hire someone. And I don't really want to spend days interviewing.Kevin Lewandowski:I already know you can do the job. It's so much easier just to bring you aboard.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. It's not like a favor to you. It's a favor to them.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time, his knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker View says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, all nighters cinema, what makes your script stand out? If it's a book adaptation and the story isn't your original story,Michael Jamin:Well, do you have the rights to adapt? A book is one question. So if you don't, I probably wouldn't adapt it. And that's not to say that when people think you adapt a book, you still have to have these act break pops. These scenes have to unfold. It's not like books are a slam dunk to adapt. I mean, there's definitely some art and craft that has to be applied to turning into a script. So that's how you make it stand out.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think one of the other things you like to say is if you have a book, there might be a few different stories happening throughout that book. And in your paper orchestra, one of the examples you get, oh, I forget what it was called about the swing dance, and I forgot that chapterMichael Jamin:Was called Yes, swing and a Miss.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. As you said, there was other stuff happening at that point in your life, but it was just this story was the one you wanted to tell. Of course you were going to work and doing stuff like that, but this was the story you wanted to tell.Michael Jamin:Right. And also, how many times have you seen they've adapted a book, I don't know, a popular book into a TV show movie? And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad. It's because it's not as simple as simply typing the book.Kevin Lewandowski:And a lot of times people say the book was even better or the book was better anyways. And I mean, it's hard to take 300 pages of a book and consented toMichael Jamin:An hour and a half movie. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:David Sallow, what if you a show idea that you have done the work on and think it uniquely speaks to the present moment? Are there any shortcuts possible there or noMichael Jamin:Shortcuts to what? You got to write a script. Yeah. There's no shortcuts to write in a good script, and there's no shortcuts to selling it. There's no shortcuts anywhere. Shortcuts. When does shortcuts ever work? I don't know. Where are the shortcuts? Yeah, little Ed riding Hood. Other than that, in real life, you got to put the work in. Right.Kevin Lewandowski:Do you ever watch the, there's a documentary about the South Park creators and how from they, from blank page to delivering the episode, how many days do you think,Michael Jamin:Well, I know they're super fast, so I would say five,Kevin Lewandowski:Six.Michael Jamin:Six.Kevin Lewandowski:Okay. Six days. That's very fast. They are delivering it like a half hour before it's supposed to. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And that's because the animation process is so crude that they can do it so quickly, but that's fast,Kevin Lewandowski:And we've just gotten used to it that way. So I think with them in an interesting way, that's why their shows seem like their current and present, because something could have happened in the news last week, and then that episode could air next week. Whereas other animation shows, and I know you've worked in animation, sometimes it's seven, eight months before that episode,Michael Jamin:Or it could be nine months, nine months animated show. So yeah, you don't do anything top of one within in an animated show, not the ones I've done.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Next question. What if I wrote lyrics to the theme song? Is that okay to include? I think this might be in the context of one of the things you say in your scripts, don't write music cues. Don't write, don't put song lyrics in there, or something like that.Michael Jamin:I mean, if you think you got fantastic lyrics and you're going to really impress the hell out of someone, but you still have to, when I'm reading the script, I have to imagine what the music is, and I'm not going to imagine the music. And I suppose you can write the lyrics and maybe some people will read it and some won't. So it's up to you. Do you really think it's fantastic or not?Kevin Lewandowski:I had a couple scripts that I put part of a song in there and then listening to, I'm like, no, it's coming out, taking it out.Michael Jamin:In my opinion, there's really no, I'm not crazy about reading that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah,Michael Jamin:I mean, maybe others are, I don't know.Kevin Lewandowski:Well, I think, I think back to my script, it was I just kind of being lazy. Could I take that three eighths of a page and add something in there that's going to help move the storyline further, or was I just looking for a, what's a funny moment I could have right now?Michael Jamin:Right. Okay.Kevin Lewandowski:Let's see. From Aaron, in terms of recognizing good writing, writing, what is considered too much in terms of providing direction to actors, description of character, thoughts and emotions, et cetera?Michael Jamin:The less the better, in my opinion. You don't want let the actors do their job, and if you feel you can't convey the anger in a scene or the love in a scene with dialogue and you're yelling at the actors, do it this way, then you haven't done your job as the writer do your job. Not everyone else's. As far as action lines go, I am of the camp that the shorter the better because most writers or most people reading do not want to read your action line. I suppose one day, if get, I think when you get more successful, if you're Aaron Sorkin, you can write whatever the hell you want. You're, because he writes his actions line. I imagine poetry, it's probably his action lines are probably just as interesting as his dialogue because he's such a great writer, but don't count on it when you're starting off.Kevin Lewandowski:I was reading something, I forgot who the actor was, but they said, the actor always requested that their script have commas and apostrophes taken out of dialogue because they felt like they didn't want someone telling them how to say things. And I was like, I can respect as an actor, but I was like, that poor script coordinator, they have to go through that whole script again and take everything out.Michael Jamin:That's a little bit much to me. It seems like putting a comma there is like that's just grammar. And if they wanted to take it out, I think they should do it themselves, but whatever,Kevin Lewandowski:From Jonathan Loudon, again, how many feature films have you written, pitched, but never sold?Michael Jamin:Well, we wrote one completely as a spec, and that did not sell, but that got us a producer interested in our writing, and then we wrote two more that did sell as pitches. We pitched them first, then we got paid to write the script. And as far as I can remember, I don't think we wrote any other feature scripts. I think we maybe had some ideas that were batting around, but we never actually pitched or wrote, but we work mostly in tv.Kevin Lewandowski:So do you know, because from what I can recall, you've never sold a feature that actually went into production, correct. Right,Michael Jamin:Right. They they never do.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. And how do you think you would feel, because as you say, tv, the showrunner head writer has the final say, and on a feature, it's the director that has the final say. I worked with someone, his name's Steve Rudnick, and he wrote Space Jam and the Santa Clause movies with Tim Allen, and he told me this story how he was at a baseball game and he saw someone walking down the aisle and it had a Space jam cast and crew jacket. And he asked the guy and he was like, can I ask you where you got that jacket? That's a really cool jacket. And he's like, oh, I worked on production. This was all our rap gifts, and Steve never got one because writers usually aren't part of the production aspect onMichael Jamin:Feature, and he was accredited writer on it. Right. That's what an actor thought he was. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably common. I don't know why people want to become writers on movies. I mean, it would be cool, but maybe he was heavily rewritten. Maybe he was, I don't know.Kevin Lewandowski:He was so bummed. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. He wasn't invited to anything.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Right. Geo, could you elaborate on the things not to say to executives or some examples of what the producer said?Michael Jamin:What the producer said? I'm not sure I answered the question.Kevin Lewandowski:So can you elaborate on the things, so I guess as a writer, and maybe you gave your script to an executive and they were giving you feedback or said, Hey, maybe do this, do this. How would you respond to those notes?Michael Jamin:Yeah, you want to be positive. Great. We'll work on that. Thank you. Good idea. Interesting thought. We'll definitely do our best with that, and then later, hopefully you can take 90% of the notes and the ones you can't take, you say, I think we address the spirit of your note. Even if we couldn't address your notes or this one, we couldn't make it work occasionally, but you're doing 90% of the notes. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:I think the phrase I would always hear on notes calls is, okay, well, yeah, we'll take a look at it. We'll take a look at that. Yeah,Michael Jamin:We'll take a look at it. Yeah. We,Kevin Lewandowski:Next question from Cody, with short seasons, freelance opportunities have mostly gone away, but are there still opportunities for freelance, and if so, how are writers polled in for those?Michael Jamin:I don't know. That's a good question because that's a question. You'd have to look that up with the Writer's Guild. I don't remember on our last show there, I don't recall ever having those guys doing freelance, giving off freelance episodes to anyone. So it used to be a Writer's Guild mandate if the show was a certain length that they had to give out a certain number of freelancers. And now maybe they don't have to, but I wouldn't either way get it out of your head that you're ever going to sell a freelance episode because it's just so over my 28 years, I think I've sold maybe three freelance episodes and I would do more. It's not a problem. It's just that they're really hard to get.Kevin Lewandowski:And I think a lot of times what happens in writer's rooms is those writer's assistants and script coordinators that have proved their worth for a couple of seasons. If that opportunity comes for them to get a freelance episode, the showrunner helps 'em out with that, and that helps them get into the Writer's Guild and things likeMichael Jamin:That. That's usually a bone you throw those support staff after they've been there a couple of years.Kevin Lewandowski:That's a nice bonus. It's a nice check to get. Next question, David Campbell. Does the creator continue to have involvement or do you teach them on the job?Michael Jamin:If someone creates the show and they are not the showrunner, which just happened on a couple shows we've done. We were not the showrunner and the creator had involved. They were on the writing staff, but they didn't have any say. They didn't have the final say or anything. If we are the showrunner, whoever's the runner has final say. Yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Next question, nerds and friends, how many writers' rooms are virtual remote nowadays? What is the path to becoming a showrunner? Is it a writer pivoting into that role? I can imagine producing experience helps.Michael Jamin:No, so a showrunner is the head writer. The way you become a showrunner is by being a writer on many shows and being good at writing, and then the producing aspect of the job. You kind of learn on the job as you rise up the ranks. You don't have to take a course or there's no certification, and it's something you can fake.Kevin Lewandowski:For me, I never really understood what the word producer meant. No one in the context of television, because it's working in the industry, you learn, okay, writers can be producers, but then sometimes accountants, if they're high enough, they can also be producers. And not every producer is necessarily like the creative vision. Some of them deal with the money aspect of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. They're non-writing producers or non-writing executive producers, they'reKevin Lewandowski:Called. Yeah. Next question, K with an asterisk next to it. Are series filmed for streaming services similar to TV regarding creative control for the show runner?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yes.Kevin Lewandowski:Easy question. Yeah, all-nighter cinema. How different is trying to greenlight a serial TV show versus a mini series?Michael Jamin:It just depends on what the network, usually they're buying series. They're not buying mini series there. Sometimes they're buying limited series. It just depends on the network. And I wouldn't even approach, again, your goal is to write one great script as a writing sample, and it's not to time the market and figure out who's buying what. Can you write a script? Answer that question first,Kevin Lewandowski:Right? If a studio buys your pilot but ends up passing and an exec at another studio is interested, how realistic is it that they'll buy it againMichael Jamin:If the first one will buy it?Kevin Lewandowski:I don't know. I'm wondering if they're asking just because one studio passes on your script, does that mean every studio is going to pass on it?Michael Jamin:No. No. Usually if you're lucky, you pitch to five studios and one buys it. That's how they don't all want to buy it. You're lucky if one wants to buy it. But again, what's frustrating about all these questions that we're hearing is everyone's saying, how do I make money selling a script? And no one's saying, how do I write a good script? Everyone is already assuming that. It's just so damn frustrating. It's like, guys, what do you think? How do you think this is going to work? It's not about the meeting. It's about writing a damn good script. First thing's first. So I don't know, what are you going to do? I yell into the wind. People don't listen to me on this.Kevin Lewandowski:I listen. They'll listen. They'll listen. Yeah. I mean, I think there's almost this weird delusion that people think they're going to move out here within a year. They're going to have their own show. And I was just talking to someone the other day that they're going to USC, and she was talking about kind of her timeline with things, and she said, I want to give myself five years from when I graduate in 2025 to try to get into a writer's room. And when she said that to me, I said, very realistic. That's not too quick that, because there's a lot of luck of, IMichael Jamin:Thought you were going to say have her own show on the air.Kevin Lewandowski:No, no. She was very much, if I can be in a writer's room in five years. So I thought, yeah, because tough, because if you can get on that show that season one, it's not a hit yet, then it becomes a hit that can definitely fast track you a little bit. And my struggle has been, none of the pilots I've worked on have gotten picked up and shows have gotten canceled. And I'd like to believe that's not my fault, but it's hard to look at the No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Michael Jamin:But yeah. But it's a little frustrating when people ask these questions sound to me like when I hit a grand Slam, who do I high five first? They're like, dude, can you get on base? Do you know how to get a base hit? What are you talking about? Just get a base hit first. So that's what it sounds like to me. And I wish people would just have more realistic expectations and would take a little more, everyone's assuming they already knew how to do the hard part.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. Next question, given that streaming has changed the face of sitcom series writing, how do you feel about the future of the industry? Are there days of having full writer's room and staff over?Michael Jamin:It certainly seems that way, but who knows right now, if you follow what's going on, it seems like, it seems like everything's becoming, we're slowly moving back to the old days. There's going to be fewer streamers. They're going to be consolidation. They're already talking about these big streamers merging. And when that happens, things will change, but we don't really know. Right now, the industry's at a crossroads. They're not picking up a lot of shows. Now. They will pick up start. That will happen. And imagine a couple of, it can't go on much longer. They got to have to start pulling the trigger and start making TV shows again. So we don't know. We're at the crossroads,Kevin Lewandowski:Because I think you said back when you were working on, just Shoot Me In, I think you said King of the Hill, there was more than 15 writers on King. KingMichael Jamin:Of the Hill. We had 20 writers in King of the Hill, and we were do 22 episodes in a season.Kevin Lewandowski:And how many were on Just Shoot Me?Michael Jamin:Well, let's see. In the beginning, I would say it's closer to maybe 10 or so, maybe 12 at some point.Kevin Lewandowski:And in your experience, do you think comedy rooms always have more writersMichael Jamin:Than drama? I don't know. I mean, it just really depends on the budget of the show and how many episodes you're going to be doing.Kevin Lewandowski:I think I was watching something about Breaking Bad, and I think they had six writers.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? That's it.Kevin Lewandowski:Wow. On why Women Kill. We had five.Michael Jamin:The thing about drama is that you don't have to, it is easier in the sense that when you're writing a comedy, you still need to have that structure. You still need to come up with a story that is engaging, but it also has to be funny. But when you're doing the drama, you just need to come up with an engaging story, and it doesn't have to be funny, and you don't have to punch up the lines. And in that sense, I do think it's a little easier, but that's not to say writing Breaking Bad is easy. I mean, what a great show that works.Kevin Lewandowski:Right, right. Next question from maybe, are there tutorials and Final Draft, a proper guide for making your script presentation acceptable?Michael Jamin:What do you think? I don't know. I haven't looked at the tutorials.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I mean, I think the nice thing about Final Draft is they have pre-built templates that you can use. So if you're writing a Multicam, it'll prebuilt that template and everything will automatically be capitalized for you. And same thing with Single Cam. And I think one of the things you always say is when you hand your script to someone, they're not going to know you use Final Draft or one of these other programs to write the script. They're just going to get a printed out version. And I think there's minimal things you need to do, make sure the dialogue is in the middle of the page and certain things are capitalized, and there's a certain format formatting of that. But Final Draft can take care of all that too. So when you're done writing, you just hit file, export as PDF, and that's it. You're done. All the four is done.Michael Jamin:I mean, final Draft, like you said, has those templates, and it'll make your script look like a script, which is great. You got a script, you got something that looks like a script, but does it read like a script?Kevin Lewandowski:Right. Har Draft does not do that for you. Yeah, it won'tMichael Jamin:Do that.Kevin Lewandowski:Michael's course does.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I hope,Kevin Lewandowski:Lorenzo, given your friendship with the late David Bellini, have you got any insights on Italian films, TV industry, in your opinion? Is there any difference? Thank you.Michael Jamin:From what I knew from David. David when he was a lot, the difference is enormous. It's a whole different film structure over there. It's not so much of an industry as it is. I don't know. It sounded like really hard. And he was pretty successful. He worked on a bunch of shows, and he moved to LA to Hollywood because he was like, this is too crazy here. This is just not enough work. So I think it was a miracle that he was as successful as he was there, but it's a whole different ballgameKevin Lewandowski:If the script doesn't have scenes in it. How should it be written? Is it just dialogue and descriptions? Do you have any advice for someone who wants to be a script doctor?Michael Jamin:Okay. The script does have to have scenes in it. It can't be all one scene. That's not going to be acceptable. A script doctor is not really, that's some bullshit that people say on the internet. No one I've ever met ever called themselves a script doctor. We're all screenwriters. And sometimes you sell your own work, and sometimes you're brought in to rewrite somebody else's, and there's no script doctor. You don't get a degree and you don't wear a stethoscope. And that's not a job. It's just sometimes will get paid to rewrite someone else's script, but you'll only get that job if you're a really good writer and you've written some really good scripts on your own. And then when you do, usually you're like, hell, I'll just write. I want to write my own stuff. And you're brought in to change someone else's script because it's like, all right, someone's giving me money and here's a job, and I'm in between jobs, so I'll do it.Kevin Lewandowski:There's no shortcuts. A couple more questions, Aaron. How many followers, subscribers would someone need to have on social media for that to be interesting and asset to a studio or showrunner?Michael Jamin:Literally have no idea. And I'm not sure it would be interesting to a showrunner at all as far as the studio, in terms of being a writer. You're not expected to have a social media following at all. I just happen to have one, but it's not right. No one's, no one ever asked me, no one really cares. The benefit is I can promote my own stuff. I have a following, but for a writer, you don't need that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. And then our last question, is it okay to make the size of the words on the title page a little bit bigger?Michael Jamin:I suppose it is. I don't try to do anything fancy, but I don't know why you want to. It's okay if you want to. It's not desperate, but I don't know. I try to make it, I want my script to look like just an ordinary script. I want the pages themselves, the dialogue to stand out. I'm not really trying to make the cover page stand out.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah, I think it's like when writing any paper you did in college or whatever the title is, 18 font, and then the stuffy writing is 12 font or whatever.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you can do that.Kevin Lewandowski:Yeah. I think one of the things you said is the title page. No one necessarily cares about that. If you put a fancy image on there, that's not going to, people aren't going to be like, oh, we got to hire this person. We got to hire this person right now.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Don't even give any thought to the title. I mean, really. You're not going to fool anybody. So yeah.Kevin Lewandowski:Well, that is all the questions we have from that webinar.Michael Jamin:Wow. Excellent. Kevin, you did really well. You're a natural here. Thanks. Yeah. Alright, everyone. Thank you. Please continue coming to our webinars. We do 'em every few weeks. To sign up, go to michael jamin.com/webinar. I got a book out. I hope you all get it. Sign copies are available @michaeljamin.com slash book. And if you want to come see me on tour, go to michael jamin.com/upcoming. Kevin, where can people find you?Kevin Lewandowski:I'm on social media, Kevin Lewandowski. Sorry it's a very long last name. It gets butchered a lot, but I'm there. And yeah, I occasionally make appearances with Michael on these webinars and things like that. So yeah. Thank you all for who's been coming to the webinars and checking out Michael's stuff. Just go to michael jamen.com and just start clicking around. There's a bunch of stuff you can get his free scripts, stuff he's written. There's free lessons up there. Every podcast we do gets uploaded there. You can spend hours on that websites. Just go there, click around, buy the book byMichael Jamin:The book. Thank you so much buddy. Alright. You're just going to stick around. Kevin's going to be back next week for another episode. I believe it's next week. We will see when it drops, but he's going to be back around for another one. Alright, everyone, until then, keep writing, keep being creative and all that stuff. Thanks so much.Michael Jamin:Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most. Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I loved the Journey, and Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More great stuff coming next week.

Michael Jamin has been writing for television since 1996. His many credits include Just Shoot Me, King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Out of Practice, Rules of Engagement, Lopez and Tacoma FD. He's also served as Executive Producer/Showrunner on Glenn Martin DDS, Maron, and Rhett & Link's Buddy System. In his debut collection of personal essays A Paper Orchestra, Michael recounts the true stories of a sensitive, anxious man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. In this interview, we talked about how he started his career, his book, the reason behind building a social media following, his thoughts on AI, and much more! For free screenwriting advice, follow him on social media @michaeljaminwriter Want more? Steal my first book, Ink by the Barrel - Secrets From Prolific Writers right now for free. Simply head over to www.brockswinson.com to get your free digital download and audiobook. If you find value in the book, please share it with a friend as we're giving away 100,000 copies this year. It's based on over 400 interviews here at Creative Principles. Enjoy! If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts? It only takes about 60 seconds and it really helps convince some of the hard-to-get guests to sit down and have a chat (simply scroll to the bottom of your iTunes Podcast app and click “Write Review"). Enjoy the show!

Your favorite Hallmark podcast is back with a brand new fan-favorite request. Girls Gone Hallmark reviews the Hallmark Channel movie "Dater's Handbook," starring Meghan Markle and Kristoffer Polaha. What makes this movie a fan-favorite? Is it the love triangle storyline or the fire chemistry between the leads? And does the Duchess of Sussex deliver in her final film before marrying Prince Harry? Find out what Megan and Wendy think. Don't miss our reviews of "The Way Home." Girls Gone Hallmark drops a recap/review of the incredible second season every Wednesday. Start here with S2 Ep 1 Feeling Generous? We Need Your 5-STAR Ratings and Reviews Spotify Podcast listeners: Spotify allows listeners to rate podcast episodes. Once you listen to a podcast for at least 30 seconds, you get the option to rate it between one and five stars. Return to the podcast's main page and tap the star icon. Then, tap submit. Watch the Trailer from "Dater's Handbook" on Hallmark Channel About Hallmark Movie "Dater's Handbook" This movie originally premiered on January 30, 2016. "Dater's Handbook" was written by Jennifer Barrow and Rich Tabach. Jennifer Barrow currently has 10 writing credits. Her work includes "Dating the Delaneys," "Sun, Sand & Romance" and "Ms. Matched" for Hallmark. She's also written a few episodes of the animated series "King of the Hill" and 12 episodes of "Muppets Tonight." Rich Tabac has 8 writing credits which also include "Sun, Sand & Romance," "Ms. Matched" and 2022's "Love in the Limelight." Also noteworthy, Rich was a writer's assistant for several comedy series including "Just Shoot Me!" and "That '70s Show." James Head directed. He currently has 45 directing credits including Hallmark movies "Destination Wedding," "Campfire Kiss," "My Christmas Dream," and "Christmas Cookies" to name a few. He has directed a Hallmark movie since 2017 but recently worked on "Dragon Tales" - an animated adventure fantasy comedy film based on the animate series of the same name. Meghan Markle stars as Cass. This was Meghan's second and last film for the network. She had previously starred in the 2014 movie "When Sparks Fly." Outside of Hallmark, Markle appeared in 108 episodes of "Suits" as Rachel Zane and 34 episodes as a briefcase model on the game show "Deal or No Deal" back in 2006. She has since gone on to marry Prince Harry and no longer works as an actress. Related Podcast Episode: Megan and Wendy got absolutely roasted for their review of Kristoffer Polka's hair in "A Winning Team." Still love Kris, but not this look! Kristoffer Polaha stars as Robert. This was Kris' first movie for Hallmark Channel. He starred in "Hearts of Christmas" later the same year but we most recently saw him in "A Biltmore Christmas." Outside of Hallmark, he can be seen in "The Shift" and "Harlan Coben's Shelter." Jonathan Scarfe stars as George. Jonathan has a whopping 93 acting credits but this appears to be the last project he did with Hallmark. Of course we saw him in "Love On the Air" with Ali Sweeny back in 2015 and you can listen to our review of that anytime. Related Podcast Episode: Girls Gone Hallmark reviews "Love on the Air" - a stand out, fan-favorite movie starring Alison Sweeney and Jonathan Scarfe. Lynda Boyd plays Cass's mom. Talk about whopping, she's got 158 acting credits including "Christmas on Cherry Lane," "Sullivan's Crossing," "Virgin River," "An Unexpected Christmas" and so many more. According to WhatsFilming.ca, this movie was filmed in and around the Squamish area, including Tantalus Lookout and REVS Bowling in Maple Ridge. What's Coming to Girls Gone Hallmark in February?

Enrico Colantoni is an actor, writer, director and producer. You probably recognise him from Veronica Mars, Galaxy Guest, Flashpoint, Just Shoot Me! and Person of Interest to name a few. He continues to distinguish himself as an actor who consistently showcases his talent in the world of stage, film, and television. He currently is a series regular on the new FX comedy series English Teacher. He will next be seen as the co-lead in Anar Ali's upcoming CBC police procedural, Allegiance, and in the upcoming feature films Humane and the dark comedy Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, Frank opposite Mindy Cohn. Previously, he co-starred in HBO Max's acclaimed drama series Station Eleven, based on the bestseller, and played the co-lead in Birthday Candles opposite Debra Messing at the Roundabout Theatre, receiving a 2022 Theatre World Award for a Broadway debut. He received a 2019 Canadian Screen Award nomination for Guest Actor/Drama in Travelers and has recently appeared in series, Ghosts, The Good Fight, Madam Secretary, iZombie, Hot in Cleveland, Warehouse 13 and American Gothic. He also starred on the CBS series Flashpoint (receiving a Gemini and Canadian Screen Awards) the telefilm House of Versace, (where he portrayed Gianni Versace) Tom Hanks' produced miniseries The Kennedy's, (where he portrayed J. Edgar Hoover) and Bad Blood, the six-part Netflix series based on the best-selling book Business of Blood: Mafia Boss Vito Rizzuto's Last War. On the big screen, he has appeared in films such as Kill Chain opposite Nicolas Cage, Stigmata opposite Patricia Arquette, Steven Spielberg's A.I. Artificial Intelligence and the Stephen Soderbergh thrilled Contagion - which reunited him with his Full Frontal director. Enrico has also enjoyed success as a writer/director with two short films - The Bike and Issues - the latter of which premiered at the Toronto Film Festival. He also directed two episodes of iZombie after appearing on the show. We chat about rejection, breaking out of the family construct to pursue your dreams, identity, working and not working, mental hurdles, gratitude, Just Shoot Me! Happiness, metaphysics, Grandmaster Kitty and more! The video footage of this entire chat is now out as well (one day after release)! So check them out on YouTube under Michael Kahan Check Enrico out on: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/enricocolantoni_really/ Twitter/ X: https://twitter.com/ricocolantoni ------------------------------------------- Follow @Funny in Failure on Instagram and Facebook https://www.instagram.com/funnyinfailure/ https://www.facebook.com/funnyinfailure/ and @Michael_Kahan on Insta & Twitter to keep up to date with the latest info. https://www.instagram.com/michael_kahan/ https://twitter.com/Michael_Kahan

Episode 259: LAURA SAN GIACOMO Keith Reza and Victor Pachecho interview actress Laura San Giacomo. Laura has appeared in movies such as "Pretty Woman", "Quigley Down Under", and "Sex, Lies, and Videotape", she also was the star of "Just Shoot Me", and "Saving Grace".  Support the show on patreon.com/rezarifts. Anything and everything helps. Follow the show on social media @rezarifts. Book Keith on cameo at www.cameo.com/keithreza Follow Keith on all social media platforms. www.facebook.com/realkeithreza www.twitter.com/keithreza www.instagram.com www.tiktok.com www.keithreza.com Subscribe rate and review! Tell a friend!  

IT'S RADIO WITH TVS TIM STACK -Featuring TV Writer Tom Maxwell A founding member of The Groundlings, Tom served as artistic director and head of the school from 1979 to 1989. After leaving the company, (and with the help of ex-Groundling, Barry Fanaro), Tom, and his writing partner, ex-Groundling Don Woodard, transitioned into writing for television. Tom and Don worked on several shows including ROOM FOR TWO, FLYING BLIND, DREAM ON and JUST SHOOT ME. In addition, they wrote and produced several pilots and did feature rewrites. Now retired, Tom and his wife Nancy (yet another ex-Groundling), live in Vermont in the summer and Florida in the winter. https://groundlings.com Host - Tim Stack Executive Producer - Jeremiah D. Higgins Senior Sound Engineer - Richard Dugan Tim Stack on Twiter @TvsTimStack Jeremiah D Higgins - https://linktr.ee/jeremiahdhiggins 
www.thejeremiahshow.com

Welcome to That Woo You Do with Mary Lynn Rajskub and Jeffrey Jay! On this week's podcast: Dungeons & Dragons, Writing on Riverdale, and Mary Lynn's Characters Follow Mary Lynn @marylynnrajskub and find her tour dates on marylynnmarylynn.com Follow Jeffrey @heyjeffreyjay and find his tour dates on jeffreyjaycomedy.com What woo do you do? Tell us about it by emailing ThatWooYouDo@gmail.com Find us @ThatWooYouDo and wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening :)

STEVEN VALENTINE: Actor/Magician. Many credits include; House, Monk, Just Shoot Me, Will & Grace, Dharma & Greg, Psych, Charmed and Crossing Jordon.

In July, I hosted a webinar called "How To Get Past Hollywood Gatekeepers" where I shared my thoughts on creative things you can do now with the strikes happening, as well as what you shouldn't be doing. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:You shouldn't. You should not try to work. I mean, you don't go on any guild SAG projects or guild projects, but you could do, if it's a non SAG project, like a student film or something, you can do that. You're not violating anything. You're not getting paid, but you can build your network. Exactly. Or make your own stuff. If you write your own mini scene or movie or whatever and you shoot it on your phone, you're not breaking any strikes. You're not selling it, you're just shooting it. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael. Hey everybody, welcome back. It's Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson and we are going to answer some questions. So as you may or may not know, we host a webinar, a free webinar every three weeks usually, and I try to answer a different topic. And the last topic we did was called How to Get Past Industry Gatekeepers. And we did an exclusive v i P room afterwards where people could ask questions. This is where the questions are coming from, Phil, right?Phil Hudson:No, these are actually the ones from the webinar. We didn'tMichael Jamin:Oh, these are from the webinar. Okay.Phil Hudson:Yeah, because we shifted things up and for people who, dunno, you were spending a lot of time, we were staying on for an hour doing q and a with everybody, and so we just decided to give everyone an opportunity to hop in and get FaceTime with you. It's limited seats of V I P Q and A, and this is for the people who ask questions during the webinar who didn't get their questions answered rightMichael Jamin:Now I'm confused. Okay. Yeah, so to be clear, the webinar is free, but we also did a little bonus thing afterwards that people can buy in so I can answer more questions. So these are questions. I didn't get it. We didn't have time to answer and Phil's going to cue me. What is it? Yeah,Phil Hudson:No, I was going to say we're going to dive in and I think it's just two things. If you want to have a question answered by Michael, there's two ways to get that done and you're very, very open with your time. One is to join the webinar. We typically have one, sometimes two a month depending on the month, and it's a different topic typically every time. But we have a couple that people really like, so we might be focusing on those. But if you can't get your question answered there, the v i P is an opportunity for them to hop in with you and really just spend that time, time you turn your camera on. You ask myMichael Jamin:Question. Well, it's not one-on-one. A small group of people.Phil Hudson:So it's not one-on-one in the sense that you sit there and you get to talk to Michael. You don't have to. It's not, yeah. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah. So yeah, let's dive in. And we've done previous episodes. I've broken these into subjects. So there are a couple key categories. This is heavily weighted towards breaking into Hollywood because that was the topic,Michael Jamin:ButPhil Hudson:I think the craft questions are always good. So starting there, Norville, scs, if a character changes for the better over the course of a story, is there initial likability, something to focus on?Michael Jamin:Well, likability is a complicated thing. Sometimes people, you'll get a note from the studio saying these need to be likable. And that's not the same thing as the audience needs to the characters, which is a different, okay, so Tony Soprano is not a likable person. You don't want to spend 10 minutes with the guy, he might kill you, okay? But the audience likes to watch him because he's interesting. But often you'll get a note from the studio saying, these characters, they're too unlikable. I don't have an answer to that. It depends if you're doing a drama or a comedy, but generally the note you're going to get is these need to be likable characters, especially if you're doing a comedy. We're spending time with them, we're spending a lot of time with them. So even in Cheers, I'm sure one of the notes was Carla's too unlikable, so they probably softened her up so she wasn't, because you're spending time with him, this is your family, I guess. I dunno if that answers the question. It's the best I can do. Well,Phil Hudson:I think the question comes from Save the Cat, which you've admittedly never read and you've never read, but it definitely talks about how your character should do something to make us like them in the first three to five pages because we'll want to root for them and it's a redeeming factor and there's plenty of evidence as to why that's not necessarilyMichael Jamin:Accurate. I don't subscribe to that. I don't subscribe to that. So yeah,Phil Hudson:As good as it gets. You recommended, I read that for a script. I was writing one point. Is that it? Where is that? Not Jack Nicholson.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean I love that, but I don't rememberPhil Hudson:Telling you, but he throws the dog down the garbage shoot.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah, it was the first time we seen him. He throws the dog down the garbage shoot.Phil Hudson:It's the opposite of saving the cat.Michael Jamin:And it'sPhil Hudson:A classic, it's incredible film.Michael Jamin:And that's a film, right? So that's not a sitcom. So again, I don't subscribe to this thing. The character has to do something likable. What is that? I mean, I think they have to do something interesting. Engaging and throwing a dog on a shoot is kind of interesting for sure. SoPhil Hudson:Yeah, what kind of person would do that? Use his questions. Jackie Smite. What if you have a script for a very specific franchise? Is it simply foolish if you are an inexperienced or is it a bad idea in general?Michael Jamin:Bad idea in general. And it's foolish. You got 'em both write. You can't write for a franchise. You don't own the ip, it's not yours, let it go. You don't write a Marvel movie, don't write a Disney movie with the princesses. It's not yours, so let it go. Don't write anything with a franchise.Phil Hudson:This is a very common one. I mean, most people have an idea for a story and it's based off of existing ip. I remember talking to a friend in 2008, a couple months after I really started studying screenwriting. She's like, oh, I have this enemy franchise. I want to adapt for tv. And I was like, okay, I don't think you could do that. And yeah,Michael Jamin:Reach out to, if you get the rights from them, then do it, but you don't have the rights, so don't do it.Phil Hudson:And that is a process and we'll probably circle back on that because there's a question about attorneys, which we'll get to in a minute.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Phil Hudson:Cliff Johnson ii. I write drama features to half hour comedy and also differing genres. Is it limiting to spread myself thin or should I keep building a diverse portfolio?Michael Jamin:You don't need a diverse portfolio. I'd say specialize in whatever it is you enjoy the most. Focus on that, get really good at it, and then market yourself as the best damn thriller writer there is. Or the best broad comedy writer there is. You don't need a broad portfolio. You need to have a specific portfolio that really showcases your excellence in this one area.Phil Hudson:Yeah. You've given advice as well in the past that let's say you're a sitcom writer, well get really good at writing half hour single camera sitcoms that do multi, then do animated. So you stay in that genre, but you can build a portfolio within that genre to show your base. But it's different than writing violent westerns and Taylor Sheridan style.Michael Jamin:Yes. Right. I'm glad you pointed at that. So if you want to be a comedy writer, you might want a Yes. A broad you should have, should have a grounded single camera comedy, but it's all comedy. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Andrew James jokes, do you see everything from a certain comedic viewpoint when thinking of content or writing a script,Michael Jamin:A certain comedic viewpoint? I don't remember. Not sure what that means. There's things that strike me as funny. I'm not sure if I have. I thinkPhil Hudson:For me, I think I understand this question, but I don't want to interrupt you if you have something.Michael Jamin:No, what do you think?Phil Hudson:I think what's being asked is when I was told once that I have a particular view of the world and it often is a comical view of the world. I look at the ridiculousness of bureaucracy or rules and rather than get upset, I just make fun of them or I find ways to poke holes at them. To me it's really that question. Do you have that point of view to say, this is my Mike. Judge has, I would say, has a really clear point of view and the way he does his things. Do you look at things through a certain lens?Michael Jamin:I don't know if I do. I mean, I'm sure I have a voice. I'm always interested, I guess how do I like finding things, thinking of things that are funny, but I'm not sure if I have a specific I tact that I take, sorry, I can't help them more. I got to think about that more. Do I have a point of view? I tend to think silly and stupid, but I think I'm smart. I mean, I went to college and everything, but I don't think I'm dumb, but I think my voice is sometimes of a dumb person.Phil Hudson:When I think of your voice, I think of a lot of the things you share about the way you kid with your daughters,Michael Jamin:The way I kid with my daughters.Phil Hudson:Yeah, just like you've done a couple of social media posts where you're like, it's like dad jokes, but at a different level. It's an elevated dad joke almost.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm their dad.Phil Hudson:I know, but it's like dad jokes very punny. And then yours is one step further and you've done several of these quick bites on social media that are related to your conversations with your daughters. To me, that's Michael Jamin and Comedy.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. I love having fun with my kids. They're so funny. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. And then Phyllis Hill, Phyllis was pretty active, so we got a bunch of questions from her, but they were very good. I sorted through a bunch of 'em. And this is a little bit tied to something I know we've talked about before and I just thought it was good to put on the podcast. Have streaming platforms changed story structure, the same story structure that might've been used back during the day of network TV shows?Michael Jamin:Great question. Not in a hugely significant way. The biggest thing is probably, well, there's no commercial breaks, but so what? We still break the story still the same. We just don't go to commercial. But when we break it on the whiteboard, same thing. It doesn't matter. The only difference is streamers sometimes want you to have serialized stories. So the end, they want to end on a pregnant moment where, so it's continued. So the next story picks up where the last one ended. That's sometimes what they want so that you binge, but that's kind of easy. Often you can, if you go back and watch Weeds, the show Weeds, they did that really well see, they tell a full story and then at the end the story's over. They just do a weird little thing at the end of that story. And then that story would be the beginning. That beat would be the beginning of the next story. So it's super easy in terms of breaking it. It actually makes it kind of easy. It doesn't make, it's the same kind of storytelling. You're just adding one more beat at the end.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's awesome. I think that's a very concise answer, Michael.Michael Jamin:I get paid by Word.Phil Hudson:I love that. I was going to say Charles Duma is Alexander Duma. I don't know who Charlie Duma is, but he's probably Alexander Dumas's cousin twice divorced. Some questions about your course which come up because during the webinar you're often, one of the things, people have a chance to win your course, you get lifetime access to the course. One person wins every time, but also you give a discount to the course.Michael Jamin:Yeah, if you're listening to this, come to these free webinars that I div, we give a good discount to anyone who attendsPhil Hudson:And that opens registration for that block of enrollment. Leonard h wanted to know, will the course do anything for someone working on documentaries?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I don't know. I mean personally I think yes, but I'm not a documentary filmmaker, but I have watched documentary films where I thought this would've been better if they went through my course. They would've dove into the emotional moments that I feel. But having never made a documentary, what the hell do I know? But I have watched documentaries where I thought this was good, but it wasn't great. It didn't really move me emotionally or I should. I think that's when documentaries really work is when or anything works when you finish watching it and you're still thinking about it, you're still feeling it the next day. So I don't want to promise, but I would think it would help. ButPhil Hudson:I have taken a documentary film class as part of my film school stuff. It's honestly one of the better classes I took. It was taught by a guy named Hank who was a Sundance fellow in the documentary labs and he done multiple documentaries. That's literally, he teaches and then he and his wife shoot documentaries and manage those tons of stuff in South by Southwest, the film fest, Sundance Film Festival, all that stuff. And absolutely story structure is a very vital part of that. And you get into the cinema verte and how you're doing your documentary and the influence of structure and story, but the story structure had to be there, or no one wants to watch what you're doing,Michael Jamin:Nobody cares. So the hard part is you can't invent that. You have to hopefully capture that and then know, oh, I captured this moment. This would be a good first act break.Phil Hudson:But they're scripted there. They're scripted. You need to understand what things you need to get, what beats you want to get as you tell the story. And then it evolves out of that. You often are surprised by what you get, but then there's the paper edit you do when you go into editing where you have transcripts of all the footage and you're looking for things. And it was a little bit uncomfortable for me then and still is now. He even encouraged that it's your job to tell the best version of that story as you can. And there is no such thing as cinema verite, truth of the camera, right? Truth of the lens. You can't because the moment you're there observing it, it changes. And that's a law of physics. You observe an Adam behaves different. And so he says at the end of the day, let's say that you filmed something out of order and there's a clip that you shot two months from now, but it helps tell the story that you need to tell. He had no problem rearranging things or cutting people out of order to get the story that he needed at the end of it.Michael Jamin:So your point is the story, our course would help. That'sPhil Hudson:Your point. Absolutely. Yeah, I absolutely would help.Michael Jamin:Alright,Phil Hudson:There you go. There you go. A couple of questions from Phyllis. Please compare your class to screenwriting classes like the ones offered on Masterclass.Michael Jamin:Well, again, I haven't gone through all the ones in Masterclass. I've watched a few videos of some of the speakers. I don't know, I mean I didn't watch all of it. I don't know. I really can't say having not watched all of it. I think mine is, I would expect mine is a little more hands-on in the sense that I'm teaching you literally how we break a story in the room. I don't fill you with a lot of terms that we don't use, but Phil, have you gone through Masterclass? Yeah. Maybe you'll know better than I do.Phil Hudson:Active subscriber to Masterclass for a long time and most of them I can't get through on Masterclass including, and look, I think Aaron Sorkin's one of the most prolific author writers of our time and I love everything he puts out. ButMichael Jamin:Yeah, he's Shakespeare. He's the Shakespeare of our time.Phil Hudson:Couldn't get through it, couldn't get through his course,Michael Jamin:Couldn't get throughPhil Hudson:It. No, a lot of, and actually I can tell you this because in my agency we have a client who is getting their own masterclass right now. So I've got a little view through the window of what that platform is. And I'm not saying all platforms are like this and I don't want to be saying anything disparaging against Masterclass. I really enjoy masterclass, but the amount of content they shoot versus what you get, it's like 20% of what that person did and they're not editing it. So Masterclass does this stuff, they're in Sorkin and then what you get on the back end of that or Shonda Rogers or whoever, you get to the end of that and it's like 20% of what they talked about. It's good, but it's not the meat. It's not the meat of what you want.Michael Jamin:I've watched some, not theirs, but I felt, and I love masterclass too, I felt you got a taste of everything. You can really learn a lot about cars and cooking and it's a really great, but I felt like from what I watched, it didn't go deep enough. That's not what it is. It's a sampling. And I thought it was interesting but not helpful for some of the ones I saw. Interesting but not helpful.Phil Hudson:The most practical one was Aaron Franklin's barbecue cooking class. And I put that one to good use with my smoker because it is very much, here's how you do it, here's how you tip things, here's how you wrap meat. It's just actionable. SoMichael Jamin:If I ate meat, I'd come over and make me a nice smoked dinner, but I don't,Phil Hudson:You'd be very happy.Michael Jamin:I'd probably start sweating.Phil Hudson:I'll meat sweats. Yeah, I'll make you some nice broccolini. How about that?Michael Jamin:Yeah, that'd be nice.Phil Hudson:Alright, and then just another question from Phyllis, and I think this is more broad about you and what you're doing for people online in the webinars with the course, everything. What is your motivation to offer this assistance other than money?Michael Jamin:Oh, well, when I broke into the business, this is back in the nineties, this was before the internet and I was living in New York. I knew nothing about the industry. I knew nothing. I knew no one, how would I know anything? So I just got in my car and I drove to LA thinking well get close. But now because the internet, social media, you can talk to people like me and get so much information for free and what a gift. And so I know people say it's impossible to break into Hollywood. Yeah, yes, it's hard, but it's even harder if you don't even know where to begin if you don't have these resources. But now I started building my social media profile back a little over two years ago as a way of building my platform so that I have a book that's coming out so that I could platform my agents has platform drives acquisition. I need a following to sell my book to perform and do all these things that I wanted to do. And so the way to build this platform was by just talking about what I know and giving 90% of it away for free. The other 10% is in this course that we have and that'sPhil Hudson:It. I a call from Michael and I was doing runs for Tacoma FD like season two or something. And you called me and you're like, Hey man, can you come over? I want run some stuff by you. I know many people know this, but some people don't. I know you through working at a digital marketing agency where I assisted your wife's e-commerce website and just worked for her for a couple of years doing whatever I could to take care of her. She'd been ripped off by the sales guy who sold her some stuff that we couldn't do and I had no idea who you were or what you guys did. And then one day you were going to join and it kind of put it together and you guys were just very kind and have always been kind to share your knowledge with me, but well,Michael Jamin:You started it. You started it by being kind first. Let's be clear.Phil Hudson:It was the right thing to do, right? It's a principle thing, which is very important. And at the end of the day, you called me over because I have that experience, that skillset, and we just had a sit down in your garage and you broke your Adirondack chair and then you told me that it wasMichael Jamin:Already broken. Broken, it was already broken,Phil Hudson:Was a big guy. I was sweating that once. I had to buy you a director's chair to replaceMichael Jamin:It.Phil Hudson:But anyway, we talked about this, what do you need to do? And I was like, finally, because I've been begging you for years to do this course and to put your stuff out there just because the private email lessons and the conversations we had were so incredibly valuable to me. And I was in flu school at the time and getting more value out of an email you'd send me over a weekend than I was getting in a week of lectures at that school.This is how you do what you need to do to sell your book and here's how you give. And the mantra of any good digital marketing platform is give, give, give, right, give, give, give. And there's an ask. There's always a right for an ask in there as well, because you are giving, and we talked about the course and you were very clear, I don't want to, you feel sleazy selling things. You don't want to do that you're, you're a writer, you're not a guy who does this. You're not pretending to be the answer to all things. And I said, but people will value what you have and they have to pay for it to value it. So I'm the one who pushed it. I'm the one who pushed the price and you've reduced the price over and over again because you just want to make sure that it's getting as many people as it can.You do, A lot of people don't know this. You offer basically free financing through yourself. People can sign up for the course on a three month plan, a six month plan, or pay in full and you don't bill 'em any interest. And there are plenty of ways for us to get interest off of people or get people to pay interest and that's just from my perspective, it's 100% honestly. How can I serve as many people as possible so that I can get this passion project of my book speaking as you to as many people as I can.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there you go. You answered it. Well, Phil, I think you said it better than I did.Phil Hudson:I'm growing long-winded in my as I wax old.Michael Jamin:Wax old.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Alright, cool. Now to the meat of the episode for the webinar was about breaking in and so there's some really good stuff here and so I know we'll be quick on some of this, but if you want, this full webinar broadcast is available for purchase as well on your website. It's like 29 bucks and it's lifetime access and they can watch the whole episode of this webinar.Michael Jamin:Yeah, go get it.Phil Hudson:Yeah, but Valerie Taylor, so once the script is done, what does it mean to build the mountain? What does the work have to do? And that's reference to a podcast episode we did recently that a lot of people really liked, which is Build Your Mountain.Michael Jamin:There are people doing this. I didn't come up with this idea. There are people on social media, content creators who are just putting their out there and because it's really good they're building a following. I dunno if that was their intention in the beginning, but that's what they've done. One I always mention is Sarah Cooper, I wish she would do my podcast. So have you reachedPhil Hudson:Interesting?Michael Jamin:I tagged her on something, but she's busy. She's busy, but I'm a huge fan of hers. So she's this vicious woman, young actress who as far as I can tell she couldn't get arrested in New York City. She just started during the pandemic posting kind of funny lip syncs of Donald Trump, but she wasn't just lip-syncing, was plusing it. She was adding her own comedy to it and her own reactions and it was really, she was great and she's just doing this and she wants to be an actor and a writer, but she's doing this and she was so great at it. She built a giant following and because this following people discovered her and because of that she gets, I think she got a Netflix special. She got a pilot out of it and where the pilot, she can write her own stuff now. I think some of the projects never went to air, but she sold it. She made a name for herself and she will continue making a name for herself because she built it first. She wasn't begging people for opportunities. It's the other way around. She started doing it and then because she was so good at it, people came after her. People started begging her.And you don't have to, and I think maybe Phil, we might even do a whole, I may save some of this information from our next webinar. I want talk. Yeah, I'm going to save, but I have more thoughts to this I I'll put in our next free webinar. Write. Write. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Can't wait. Oh, by the way, Michael puts a month worth of effort into writing every webinar. I see the revisions and I'm always like, Michael, I need this so I can make the workbook. Michael, I need this. And he's still editing. So Hayden, Sears, earlier you said to bring more to the table of an agency than a script. What else should I bring to the table?Michael Jamin:You could do what I just said with Sarah Cooper. She brought a huge following. She brought, you could bring talent, you could bring a movie that you launched, finance that you did yourself at Sundance that got accolades and now you're this hot new director or writer or whatever. That's bringing more to the table than saying, Hey, pick me. You're doing it already. You are already doing it. You're proving that you know how to do it. And people don't do it because it's work or they think it's too expensive. But I have to say, it's not the money that's holding you back. The money. You can raise $10,000 or $15,000. I know it's not nothing but it. We're not talking about a million dollars, we're talking about 10,000. You can raise it on a Kickstarter, you can raise it on a bake sale and you can shoot the damn thing on your phone and you can edit it on your phone.You just need good sound. That's what I recommend. But you don't need great locations. You can shoot the thing one, I always mention this, Phil is the whale, the movie The Whale, which is based on a play that was shot in an apartment. So don't tell me you need to have great locations to make something amazing. It was shot in a dumpy apartment and one of the most, it was a beautiful story. Beautiful. It was all because the writing, the writing was excellent and because the writing was X, it was able to attract great actors and the acting rose to the writing. If the writing was no good, who cares what the acting is?Phil Hudson:Yep. Cynthia always said that in our classes with Jill, your interacting classes, the writers put it on the page. Everything in actor needs to know is on the page. That's where the performance comes from.Michael Jamin:If it's a good script, yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome. The cinema magician with the strike going on from both the writers and the actors now it feels like it wouldn't be fair trying to come get work this moment. How can I try to try for work and support the union?Michael Jamin:You shouldn't. You should not try to work. I mean, you don't go on any guild sag projects or guild projects, but you could do, if it's a non sag project, like a student film or something, you can do that. You're not violating anything. You're not getting paid. SoPhil Hudson:Build your network.Michael Jamin:Build your network. Exactly. Or make your own stuff. If you write your own mini scene or movie or whatever and you shoot it on your phone, you're not breaking any strikes. You're not selling it. You're just shooting it.Phil Hudson:Yep. Awesome. Love Leanne. Who is a member of your course, how should we speak to writers and other filmmakers on the picket lines? I've seen others not doing it very well and I'm kind of afraid to speak.Michael Jamin:Oh, well that's hard. I mean, all you got to do is don't act like you want something from them. Just act like you want to learn from them. Hey, tell me about your story. Tell me how did you start? How did you break in? What kind of shows do you like to write? What inspires you? Pretend like they're a guest on your radio show or your podcast. Interview them. We don't want anything from them. You're just curious to get their story. People will talk.Phil Hudson:Yeah, they definitely will. And when I've gone out and done picketing, it's really interesting. I don't talk to people, I'm just, who are you? Tell me about you. What are you doing here? Why are you here? What are you doing out on the picket line? Cool. Are you in industry? Breaking in the industry? Oh great. Oh, cool. You worked on that show. I love that show. Awesome. And then they ask you questions too, because walking in circles for hoursMichael Jamin:And you're a human being and they're going to make conversation. The conversation will eventually turn around to you and then you can talk about yourself.Phil Hudson:Have you noticed the people who put up their YouTube channel and stuff on flyers on the poles and stuff in the corners?Michael Jamin:No. I have not seen that. I have promoting their own channel.Phil Hudson:It feels a little skeezy to me. Personal. I'mMichael Jamin:Not. The problem is no one's looking at him anyway, so Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you haven't noticed. And when I see 'em, I'm just like, ah, man's. I don't know. That's the way to do that. You're basically saying, look at me. Look at me. Instead of being there, walking on the picket lines, talking to people and putting in effort to fight for the same things they're fightingMichael Jamin:For. Yeah. You don't have to promote yourself.Phil Hudson:Alright, Norville, scss. Does the strike lead to an increasing demand for scripts?Michael Jamin:Well, when the strike is over, there will be, everyone will flood the market with their scripts and that's just the way it is. SoPhil Hudson:Yeah. Demand, but also supply because all of these writers have time to write.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right.Phil Hudson:Antonia, Roman. Hey, Michael, met you yesterday on the picket. I appreciate your insight. How many script feedback reads should someone actually pay for? Sometimes the feedbacks contradict each other.Michael Jamin:Thanks. Oh, Phil, IPhil Hudson:Know.Michael Jamin:Here we go.Phil Hudson:My purpose. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Many. If you're paying in one of these services and maybe it's like 150 bucks for one of these services, you're going to get who you get who's reading the script other than it's someone who works at the service, they don't know more than you do. They just work there and they're making whatever, 20 bucks an hour or maybe less to read script after script. What's their qualifications beats the hell out of me. Other than the fact that they're working there and they're not industry deciders. They're not like they don't have jobs in SC screenwriting. If they did, they would be doing that. So a service, I'd pay nothing, because that's why you're going to get contradictory feedback. What do they know? They don't know more than you. If you can find a writer with experience, and there are writers who will do this as a freelance thing, check out their credits, go on their I M D B, what have they written? Ask to see their work. What have they read their work? Do you like their work? And if you do, then yes, then your feedback could be valuable. But I would never go through a service.Phil Hudson:Yep. We did talk about this where I sent Michael, I paid for feedback from some of these services on your behalf, listener to the podcast. And then I shared the emails back and forth from them, the reviews as well as when I questioned the validity of the feedback I received from them. I sent Michael those. And I think the feedback from the service was way more infuriatingMichael Jamin:Than the Yeah, it just made you mad. It made you feel like you got ripped off. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creativeTypes. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Ruth W should emerging rider approach breaking in differently than before, given the strike, are there any new approaches that should be considered? Thanks?Michael Jamin:I don't think, wait for the strike to end before you think about breaking in, but the landscape has changed so much with social media that you don't need anyone's permission. I just talked about this. You don't need anyone's permission to write and build up your brand. I'm not doing it. I'm not waiting for anyone's permission. I don't know why anybody else would. I have a good podcast guest this week? Well, I dunno when you're going to hear this Mike Sacks, go listen to him. See, he's an author and he talks about that himself. He has sold books to publishers and he's also indie published it himself and he makes a really strong case for just doing it yourself. And he's done both. And he's an editor at Vanity Fair. So the guy knows how to write.Phil Hudson:Yeah, yeah. Also, definitely don't try breaking him right now. They're very clear rules that the writer's guilds come out and said, if you even have meetings with producers, that is an act of crossing a picket line.Michael Jamin:No, I'm not talking to my agent, I'm not talking to producers. I'm not doing any of this. YouPhil Hudson:Mean they will literally forbid you from joining the guild. So any short term win now is basically a nail in the coffin of your career later and as it should be, Susan Mark, when you get the low paying non-union screenwriting gigs over and over, how do you move from that into network shows with four question marks?Michael Jamin:The fact that you're getting these jobs to begin with are great, even if they're non-union. So good for you. I mean, this is where if these movies are doing or shows are doing well and if they're well received and if they're written well, and this is what you show to an agent and you say, here's my body of work and here's a movie I did that it cost 10,000 to make, and the return on it was a hundred thousand. That's impressive. So that's how you can parlay that into bigger opportunities. But the problem is, if you're doing this work and the work isn't coming out good, it still has to be good. It has to be good. And people have, it has to have be one or the other critically well-received or makes a lot of money. It has to be a financial success. One or both. One or the other or both.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Roxanna Black Sea. How do you get over feeling guilty asking a friend or a mentor for a referral and how do you know you're ready and not wasting their time? This is a good one. I might as well wrote this, Michael.Michael Jamin:Well, if you have a friend who's in the industry, I dunno if they're in the industry or not, but you only have one chance to impress them. And if you give them something that's not great, it's a big ask. Hey, sit down and read this. It's going to take them an hour and a half or whatever. And if it's not great, they're not going to want to do it again. They'll do a favor once, but they won't do it again. So there's that. The get over the guilt. Well, if you've giving them a giant gift, you shouldn't feel guilty If it's giving 'em a piece of shit, well, you're going to feel guilty, but you just need to know what it is you're giving them.Phil Hudson:That takes a lot of introspection and a lot of self-analysis. I would also say it takes a lot of practice and study of existing high quality works to compare yourself.Michael Jamin:Yeah, high quality. That's the thing, Phil, if you're watching some crappy TV show and you go, well, I can write a crappy TV show that's not the barPhil Hudson:Crap. Plus one that's been around for since the a o l days crap plus one is I can do one better than that. It's not good enough. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Not good enough.Phil Hudson:Alright, Ruth w again, if you know an established riders working on a new project that you have happen to have particular rare knowledge on, is it appropriate to contact that rider even to work for free? And then there's a follow-up to this.Michael Jamin:Well, if they're on a show and you have particular knowledge, they're not going to let you work for free. You can't work for free. But you can share your knowledge and I don't know, it always, you can share your knowledge, but no one's, you're not allowed to work for free. So I don't know what if they're going to offer you a job or not,Phil Hudson:But is it okay to reach out to them?Michael Jamin:Why not? What's the harm? Yeah.Phil Hudson:I think the benefit of that is you are going in to say, Hey, I saw you're doing this. I happen to be a subject matter expert on that. Anything you want to ask me, I'm happy to go over with you and bring out any insights you want. You are now serving that person. You're not coming in and say, give me a job, give me a job. And you might hop on a zoom with them and have an intro. Now you've got a foot in the door to have an extended conversation as someone, and you've provided value to that person.Michael Jamin:Right. Then you're right. You're not asking for anything in return, but people tend to give things back when people give first.Phil Hudson:Yep. And the follow up question, is it okay to contact an agent to get the contact information for that rider that you would like to help for free?Michael Jamin:So you don't know this person. Yeah, you, the agent's not going to do anything with it. I would doubt they're going to do anything with it. You could reach out to them on LinkedIn, maybe you could tweet that.Phil Hudson:This might be a good time to slide into the dms. Right. And because you're not asking, you're providing valueMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Expect them not to reply.Michael Jamin:Right. Expect 'em not to reply. And it's because you, maybe they get too many solicitations or maybe it's just they find it weird. It's worth a shot.Phil Hudson:It also might just be that they don't have time to look at their social media, which is very real. Don't read into it. Just shoot your shot. Move on.Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Don't wait. Don't hold your breath. Shoot your shot and keep shooting your shot. Keep working on yourself. Yep.Phil Hudson:Genova, is there anything we need to be wary of when approaching smaller agencies with our scripts so we don't get screwed?Michael Jamin:Well, the agencies, first of all, don't approach any agency that's going to charge you for to represent you. That's no legit agents work on commission. Now the big ones are not going to represent you. You have to reach out to smaller ones who are soliciting clients. I wouldn't expect an agent to, I wouldn't expect them to rip you off. That's not what they do. They're going to represent you and try to sell you. The agents are not producers, they're not screenwriters. So to me it's safe. But again, I don't give legal advice if you have to do what's comfortable for you personally, I don't worry about that. That's not something I worry about.Phil Hudson:And you started at a smaller agency that some could say screwed you, but I don't know that you see it that way, right? Because you got hip pocketed basically as a baby writer.Michael Jamin:They didn't screw me, they just didn't do anything.Phil Hudson:That's saying they didn't screw you. But some people might say they screwed you because they didn't do anything.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. But they didn't steal anything from me. They just didn't help my career any.Phil Hudson:Yeah, and we talked about that in some of the early podcasts. If you want to go back and listen to those. I think it was the agents and manager episode is like episode five or something.Michael Jamin:SoPhil Hudson:95 something episodes ago. It'sMichael Jamin:Great. Yeah. You remember this stuff.Phil Hudson:Shem L. Do you think New York and LA are still the places to make it?Michael Jamin:No. I think LA is the place to make it. Take New York off the list. Where is Hollywood? This is a trivia question. Find it on the map. Hint, it's in Los Angeles. I understand that some television production or film production is done in New York. Some Where's the writing done? The writing's done in la. Same thing with Georgia or New Mexico. Sometimes they shoot things there for tax breaks, but the writing is almost always done in LA and even if some writing is done in these smaller cities, okay, fine, maybe you'll get incredibly lucky, but you're not going to be able to sustain a career there. The career's here, that's how I feel.Phil Hudson:All right. And Jill Hargrave. I'm a senior writer, 76 years old, transition from decades as a documentary producer to screenwriter. I have an agent and I'm in the news division with the W G A East. Any advice on how to get read by execs?Michael Jamin:I'm looking for, so she's a news writer.Phil Hudson:Sounds like she's a writer in the news division for the W G A East. She has decades of experience being a producer in documentary film. She has an agent advice on how to get executives to read your stuff.Michael Jamin:Sorry. Yeah, so you're in the same boat as everyone else. I don't think you got a leg up. You sound like you're very competent news producer, but you might as well be an orthodontist. It's a different kind of writing, but shePhil Hudson:Has an agent.Michael Jamin:Ask your agent. I suspect your agent's not going to give a crap. Your agent is able to get you news jobs. That's what you are and that's what you bring value to them. But they're not interested in you starting your career over from zero. My friend Rob Cohen talked about this in one of our podcasts. He was a very successful sitcom writer, wrote on a bunch of shows including The Simpsons, including Just Shoot Me where I was on maybe 20 or so years into his career as a TV writer, very successful TV writer. I ran into him and he's like, I want to be a director now. I want to direct TV and film. I thought, well, how are you going to do that? He goes, I don't know, but I'm going to make it happen. I said, well, is your agent helping you at all?No, the agent's not going to help me one bit, even though he's a successful TV writer because it's a different thing. It's directing. They don't want to sell 'em as that. They can sell 'em as a TV writer, but not as a director. So unfortunately, you're going to have to start over. You milk whatever context you have. Maybe your agent can set you up with a referral with another agent at their agency that they should be able to do. But at the end of the day, you unfortunately have to make your career. They're not going to make your career for youPhil Hudson:If they have an agent because they have some screenplay sample that they've submitted. My guess would be that that's when your agent would show those. When we're not on a strike, they'd take your samples and try to sell those things to people that get you staffed and they're going to do that job for you. But it sounds like through the question that you're right, Michael, that's not a writing agent in this space. It's documented or a new set,Michael Jamin:But talk to them, maybe get some tips. I mean, again, I've tried to do the same thing myself. My agents, I have big agents and manager. They don't give a crap unless I can make money for them today in my field. They don't really care.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. Ruth w this is miscellaneous. I've got three more questions here. Excuse me for, is there any value in getting an entertainment lawyer? Does this confer any legitimacy when trying to get people to read your script? Or is it just a waste of money and Yeah, there's some follow-up to this. We'll get to that.Michael Jamin:So no, an entertainment attorney is the best money I spend. My attorney takes 5% of all the deals that I make and they help negotiate these deals. Money well spent, but it's only when I'm negotiating a deal, that's when they get paid. They get a commission. I would never pay an entertainment attorney upfront. It doesn't help you make a deal. It doesn't help you look more important. You're just going to pay them a lot of money out of pocket for no reason. Attorneys are there to help you negotiate the deal and read the fine print so you don't get screwed. That's what they help you do, but you don't pay one upfront for any. As far as I know, I would never pay one upfront.Phil Hudson:I've had two in my career and the first one didn't do a lot. This one, and we worked with him on some stuff today, actually. You and I were going over some tree mark stuff with him. But anyway, he is great and he comes at it from the perspective of that, which is, my job is to protect you and I can be the bad guy. I can go fight the fight for you to get you what you want. And you can say, Hey man, that's just what my lawyer does. You're going to have to take that up with my attorney. And we talked in the podcast about this recent experience I had where he wrote this contract and the guy signed it and he ended up protecting my butt because he put a clause in that said nothing was executable until it was paid. Money was delivered.And so because this guy never exchanged money, he only talked about exchanging money. I'm not obligated to do anything for this guy. And had I walked into that, I probably would've just signed something and not had the foresight to have that. He also had it paid in steps. So above and beyond the WJ minimums, he structured it. So I'd get paid more money upfront like you want money in your pocket? And he deals with Sony and major country musicians. He's a real proper entertainment attorney. Incredibly valuable. And it looks like he answered honestly the question, what's the difference between an agent who's going to get 10%? What's a lawyer do? What's the difference? And the answer is the agent basically books the deal. The attorney gets you the most money they can out of that deal,Michael Jamin:And the agent's not going to read the contract. They don't read contract. They're not lawyers. They don't deal with that. So you need an attorney.Phil Hudson:Love it. Goddard Fin, any insight on getting a preliminary budget done by someone or a company like Mike Binder's, budget company? I'm assuming is this for an indie project?Michael Jamin:I never heard of that and I wouldn't know.Phil Hudson:Or it's a preliminary budget on a script.Michael Jamin:I thought he was an actor. Michael Binder. I thought he was an actor. I don't even know. I've never even heard of this, so I can't even answer.Phil Hudson:My feeling is, from what I understand from this question is there's zero value added to your script when you go to pitch your story by telling them, this is the budget I got for thisMichael Jamin:For somebody. No, they'll tell you the budget if that's what that is. It's interesting. Yeah. I thought maybe this is for indies. No, when you saw the MoVI, they'll tell you what the budget is. It is their money. You don't tell them what the budget is. They tell you.Phil Hudson:And the answer is in the indie film, if it is, that is you're going to scrounge with every dollar you can get, and then you're going to make what you can with the budget you got. And that's what a line producer does for you. And they basically manage the contracts and make sure your people get paid. And you don't go over budget and you can finish your project and they'll tell you, Hey, you can't do that. You don't have the money to do that.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil Hudson:Cool. Ruth w with another, one of the reasons I am reticent to fill my own stuff is because I don't have any money to pay actors. Is it okay to ask them to work for free?Michael Jamin:You can often, actors will do this just to have tape so that they can submit themselves. But the work has to be good. You're not going to, the better the script is, the easier it is to attract actors and better actors. And if it's a great script, they'll fall over themselves for to do this. So you ask them to do it for free. Definitely. You don't want to abuse them. You want to make sure, buy them pizza, buy them lunch, make sure there's water on set. Take care of them. That's the least you can do.Phil Hudson:Yeah. And people will absolutely do that. There's also, if you're a student, you can also look into sag, SAG after student agreements, which probably you might even still be able to do that during the strike. It's not really a paid project, but they have agreements that you can work with SAG qualified actors and you have to abide by those terms if they are a SAG actor. But you can get them in your projects I did in film school.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay.Phil Hudson:Last question. As a showrunner, do you direct episodes two or just focus on running the showMichael Jamin:As a showrunner? I have, but I'm not in animation. I direct the actors for sure to get the performances out of them. But in live action, I've only directed one. That's not my job. But my job is to be on set and to make sure I'm getting the shots that I want and to get the performances that I want. Ultimately in film, I'm sorry, tv, the director works for the showrunner. So on tv, the showrunner's in charge, in film the other way around, it's the director's in charge. The writer is nothing. So does that answer your question? I think it does. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I think it just for you specifically, what do you do? But I do know showrunners who do direct on Taco fd. Yeah, Kevin. Kevin and Steve. They split 'em up and they direct certain episodes. They also,Michael Jamin:Those guys are tireless.Phil Hudson:Tireless. Yeah. I dunno how they do. I toured with them for a press tour and I was exhausted and they were just still going and happy to go. And I get emails from 'em at two, three in the morning and they're just going, ohMichael Jamin:God.Phil Hudson:Oh God. But that's how they made their career. I mean, this just ties it all together for Michael. Make it happen. Put in the effort. Those guys made their own things happen. They have shows their names and you know 'em because they put in the work. Had they not done that, they wouldn't be anywhere.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Cool. Michael, anything else you want to add?Michael Jamin:That's it. We did it, Phil. Yeah, we did it.Phil Hudson:So things people need to know. Michael, you got tons of free stuff. You talked about free samples of work, of writing.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I do free work too. I do free work here. We got a lot of free stuff we give away anyway on my website. If you go to michaeljamin.com, you can get sample scripts that I've written. You can get a free lesson that I've planned about story. You can sign up for my free webinars, which are every three weeks, which Phil helps me out with. You can come see me tour on one of my book drops, a paper orchestra. You can sign up for all of that and much, much more. And also, of course we have a course but that you got to pay for. But you know what it's worth. Every penny.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's right. And again, get a discount when you come to the webinar.Michael Jamin:Nice. Nice discount. Don't tell anyone.Phil Hudson:And you could win a free access.Michael Jamin:Oh, you can win it. Yeah, you can win it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Michael, thank you so much. Oh,Michael Jamin:And my newsletter. Phil, you can get on my free newsletter. I got that. Always forgetPhil Hudson:That. We also forget that that list is 30,000 deep or something like that right now. That's a good lists of people. That and industry, double industry open rates. People really like that list, that content.Michael Jamin:Yeah. The people like that. So sign up for my list.Phil Hudson:Be like the masses, be sheep. People join us.Michael Jamin:Okay, everyone, thank you so much. Until next week. Keep writing, right, Phil, fill that up.Phil Hudson:That is Wright, w r i t e. Right.Michael Jamin:Okay. Alright. Thanks guys.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @Michael Jaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Things get Hot and Hilarious In Los Angeles when the brilliant and beloved actress Wendie Malick ("Dream On," "Just Shoot Me!" and "Hot In Cleveland") joins Phil and David for a fun and free-flowing lunch full of great stories and big laughs. Phil and Wendie explore and celebrate their brief and little-seen screen marriage in the 2012 film "Jewtopia." David discusses the pleasure of getting to know and work with Wendie thanks to the Environmental Media Association. Wendie shares her amazing journey from growing up in Buffalo, New York, her time as a Wilhelmina fashion model, working for football legend turned Congressman Jack Kemp, and finally her fantastic and enduring acting career on stage and screen. All this PLUS a totally wild story about Hunter Thompson and call-in questions from Wendie's friend and co-star -- and former "Naked Lunch" guest -- Valerie Bertinelli, as well as EMA's CEO Debbie Levin. To learn more about the work of EMA, visit https://www.green4ema.org/. To learn more about building community through food and "Somebody Feed the People," visit the Philanthropy page at philrosenthalworld.com.

This week, Emmy Winning Writer/Producer Jack Burditt (Modern Family, 30 Rock, Frasier and many, many more) discusses his career path, joining a show that is already established and working on shows with green screens.Show NotesJack Burditt on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0120994/Jack Burditt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackburdittMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptJack Burditt:I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show I always wanted to write. This is, and it was fun. And it was like we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up like this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Another great guest. Hats off to me because my next guest is a friend from, I've known him for many, many years and I honestly have to say this guy's writing credits our outstanding, he's, and he's, he's going to be embarrassed when I say this, but Jack, I'm, I'm here with Jack Birded and he's literally one of the most sought after comedy writers in Hollywood. And Jack, before you say a word, let me tell you everyone what you've written on this could take a long time. You got a lot of credits, so, well, most recently, he's the creator intro runner of the Santa Clauss, the Tim Allen show on Disney Plus. Where he, Santa Claus. I'm going to, I'm just going to skip many of your credits. You have too many. I'm just going to do some of what I think of my, your highlights.Modern family. He run a Mount Modern family for many years. Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt 30 Rock, which we're definitely going to talk about. That is literally one of my favorite shows of all time. And I want to know more about that Last Man Standing, which he created new adventures of old Christine. I'm with her watching Ellie, and I know I said that wrong. Watching Ellie Inside Schwartz created, he co-created Dag Just Shoot Me, which we worked on together, Inc. Frazier. Mad about you. What else did I, I'm sure, oh, the Mindy Project did I said that right? The Mindy Project. That's how you said that show.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes.Michael Jamin:I'm unfamiliar with her. And then most importantly, the one that everyone knows you for. Father Doubting Mysteries.Jack Burditt:Jack. Well,Michael Jamin:Thank you so much. Damn, Jack, the credits on. You are nuts. We were talking yesterday, we were picketing yesterday and I was like, Jack, come on. You got to be on it. My podcast. And you were kind enough to do this. I got a lot of questions for you, Jack. I want to talk about 30 Rock, most of all, because I had a lot of questions while we were drunk on a three hour hike around the Disney lot. But I was like, let's just save it for the podcast. Tell what was 30 Rock, because I know obviously you're LA and they flew you out because that was a New York show. So you lived out New York.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I mean, they didn't fly me out. I flew myself out. Yeah, okay. That's the first thing. Okay. They don't put you up, they don't like No, no, it, yeah, no, it was,Michael Jamin:But wait a minute. Do they give you any allowance for rent or is that No, you're just paying for it out of your salary. TheyJack Burditt:Give you a moving fee, I guess, and it's not much. And it's a one-time thing, so there's no, it's point.Michael Jamin:And then, so were you living in Manhattan then?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was a big decision. I mean, that came about, I was, remember, I was actually thinking of a career move at that point. WhatMichael Jamin:Was the moveJack Burditt:To go to dramas? I don't know. A lot of sitcoms. I was like, eh, I don't know. Maybe I want to try something new. But I was supervising a pilot that season, a comedy pilot. And I remember just reading a lot of the drama pilots and go, oh, this might be interesting. And even at that time, I met on Friday Night Lights, which was going to be starting up and was really interest in that show because I thought, oh, this is a great pilot.Michael Jamin:But you had to put together a bunch of different drama specs, right, to do that. Yeah. Yeah.Jack Burditt:Okay. So I did that, and then I just read in the pack. There were some sitcoms in there too, and it was the Untitled Tina Faye project. And I read that and I'm like, oh shit, I want to be on this show.Michael Jamin:Mean it was great. But then had, okay, so then your agent submitted you and then what happened?Jack Burditt:Yeah, and he, not for a long time, could not give me a meeting with Tina. She wanted the people. She wanted, and she's going to do with Robert Carlock. And I didn't know him either. And my agent really spent a lot of time just saying, well, would you meet with this guy? And she read a spec of mine that she just didn't care about that much, but he talked her to a meeting with me. So at some point I got a call, it was a Friday. They're like, can you go to New York to meet with T? And I'm like, yeah. And they said, can you get, there's a plane leaving in three hours, can you get on that? And I said, sure. So I went out, flew out on a Friday night, got there Saturday, met with her Saturday afternoon. She was still doing, she's still the head writer on S N L.Right. She was still doing weekend update. And it was a show day at S N L. I went to her office there. And I just remember there was a lot of chaos going on. And then Gore's supposed to be doing a couple bits in the episode, but they didn't know at that point whether he was going to show up or not. And I was just, wow, curious. I go, well, what happens if you, he doesn't show up? She goes, yeah, you just deal with it. And I thought, she's so calm. I go, I want to work for her so bad.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That becomes basically an episode for 30 Rocky. That's what happens.Jack Burditt:I mean,Michael Jamin:So, alright. I'm just curious about the logistics. So you rent a place in Manhattan and then you shot it, was it in Queens? In Astoria, I imagine? No, you shot inJack Burditt:30. Yeah. Yeah. Silver Cup. So no, we shot it at Silver Cup in Long Island City, Queens. We would certainly shoot at 30 Rocket Times. But no, our offices, our main set was across the river.Michael Jamin:And then how did it work? How was she able to be in the writer's room and be on set? So how did she do that?Jack Burditt:It was tough. Mean, there was a lot of her shooting during the day, and then some of us going to her apartment at night and riding at nightMichael Jamin:Afterwards. So your hours must have been really tough.Jack Burditt:They were long hours. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What was the day, typical day on that show? I mean,Jack Burditt:I don't know mean it was always long. Always. I felt like it was always at least 12 hour days. But I mean, there were times, and we've been in the doing sitcoms or stuff. I mean, there were times we saw the sun come up.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. It isJack Burditt:The worst feeling in the world.Michael Jamin:It is the worst feeling. But that show, this was my complaint with 30 Rock. If you laughed out loud, you'd miss the next joke. It was that funny that I was like, I'd almost watch it in silence because like, I don't want to miss it. It was so funny that you couldn't laugh because you'd miss the next big joke, which was right around the corner. It was nuts. That show, I mean, so how was that different for you writing in that show? Was there different and it was a, I don't know, what was the secret? That was a, I just love that show. It was hilarious.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show. I always wanted to write this. And it was fun. And it was like, we could go bonkers at times,Michael Jamin:But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.Jack Burditt:Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up, this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen, or, yeah. Right. But I feel like on that show, we've been in rooms before and you pitch something really funny and everybody's pitching on top of it, and then the showrunner's like, yeah, but we can't do that. AndMichael Jamin:On that show it was like, we can that. So I mean, is that right? I mean, was there prettyJack Burditt:Much, yeah, quite often I'm things that I knew if I'd pitch on other shows, it would've been like a, yeah, that's really good. We're not doing that. Right. I thought, oh, it's got a shot here.Michael Jamin:But the thing is, I don't remember. I don't really remember. I don't remember the Beg, the early episodes. It couldn't have started out that broad. It couldn't have. Right. Because no one would've approved that. But no network is going to say you'd be this crazy red out of the gate. Right?Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it helped to have the power of Lor. Michaels behind it. He was an EP on it. But yeah, I, what the show became was a bit different from what it started, and there became more frenetic and a little bit more crazy as it went along. But I mean, even in that first season, I mean episode, I don't even know, maybe it was episode nine. By episode nine, we had Paul Rubins just playing this crazy character, and it was the first timer like, oh, maybe this is what the show can be.Michael Jamin:Oh, was really, is that what it was? Wait, the one time in Hits, and you'reJack Burditt:Like, yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I, I'm pretty sure you, well, you were in episode runs, weren't you? Weren't you in it once? IJack Burditt:Was in a few, yes.Michael Jamin:Yes, a few. And you TJack Burditt:Tina liked to, I think Tina and Robert Carlock. I don't like being on film, which is why theyMichael Jamin:Put you inJack Burditt:It. I think it was, but I also think it was partially, I did a lot of set duty. I was on set a lot during that run. And I think there's also the feeling of you put him in front of the camera so he knows what every actor's going through. And maybe it is helpful because in front of camera can be terrifying.Michael Jamin:Sure. But tell me, okay, so why were you on set most of the time? Why did they chooseJack Burditt:You? A lot the time. I mean it, I felt like in the early years, they just had, there were a few of us, there was me, they, John Regie, Kay Cannon, I don't know. There was a trust in some of us that they're like, you can sit on set. If something comes up, you can be there. Help rewriteMichael Jamin:It. Because Tina was there all the time. Right?Jack Burditt:A lot of the time. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And so she would say, Hey, can you take on another whack at this terrible scene? And then you'd got to just fix it on the set.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So far, when we were doing Marin, I think I've told this before, but we did a scene in an anger management. Mark was in anger management. So they had a big circle where all of the other people in anger management. And so Mark yells me, he goes, jam and get in here. He wanted to be an extra in the scene. So I'm like, all right. He thought it'd be funny. So I'm sitting in the anger management scene, and then the director all cut, and then I get up and I go to the director, give him notes and all the extras. This guy is going to get fired. What the hell is he doing? Why is he talking to the director like that?Jack Burditt:That's hilarious. Do you remember the time on Just Shoot Me, were Steve was going to put me in a scene in the elevator and ask what he said? Yeah. Or I think somebody else had picked, maybe it should be Bird in the Elevator when George Siegel gets in there and Steve's like, yeah, fine, that seems good. But then the next day he's like, you know what Bird, it can't be in the elevator. This building is too nice of a building. And he basically going up too much of a dirt bag to be inMichael Jamin:That's, oh my God, we on, oh my. I dunno if I can say which. What? I was on a show, it was a network show, and we gave the lead character the last name. Well, you must know her. Linda ett. You know Linda, right? Yeah, yeah,Jack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Yeah. So the network didn't realize, they didn't know her name, I guess, and they didn't like the lead being named Ti, they didn't like that name on her. She's like, what my name. But I remember we played, just Shoot Me at Ja, shoot me. We played, and it was best on pre-production. We played basketball. And then I would guard you because you were probably 35. I was like, I get the old, give me the old man. You were 35. Oh God. So now we were talking about this as well yesterday. You're running the Santa Clauss on Disney, and we were mentioning how, I hope you're comfortable talking about this, but the stress that comes with running a show versus being a Coex exec. And I wanted to get your take on, you feel what the differences are for you. What are the stresses for you when you're running a show?Jack Burditt:I mean, I guess the biggest stress of all is if something's not working, it's on you.Michael Jamin:It's on you. It'sJack Burditt:Just on you. I, and I just don't sleep. And it's like I, I'm like, I'm up at three in the morning going, Jesus, we don't figure this out. There's not going to be a script. There's not going to be. And it's just so many, I mean, how it is is a thousand questions a day, a thousand emails, texts, everything like that. And you just, you're overwhelmed. And I mean, what I like doing most is writing.Michael Jamin:But isn't that the hardest? I always say that's the hardest part of the job is the writing part, right?Jack Burditt:It's really hard, but it's also what I like the most. I love writing.Michael Jamin:But when they come to you with a wardrobe problem, aren't you just like, eh, put 'em on whatever. I don't really care.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. In fact, every time I have run a show, always go to the head of wardrobe and I'm like, I don't know anything about it. Yeah. You see, the way I dress, I should never ever have a note on wardrobe. So I will always defer to you. And yet, I always wind up having a couple things like, no, this has got to be like this.Michael Jamin:I wonder if you feel this way as well. When I'm in a production meeting and everyone has a million questions and I'm like, oh, I got so much work to do. Can we get this over with? I got to go back and write. To me, that's not even the work. That's always like, this is nonsense I have to deal with. I got the writing is the hard part.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. I will say though, it, it's going to, production meetings is good because I think at first when you start writing, you're just like, I'll write anything. And then the production meeting,Michael Jamin:TheyJack Burditt:Say, no, clarifies what a jackass most production thinks you are for writing a simple line is going to cause so many problems and so much anxiety for prop people and wardrobe and special effects and stunts and everything like that.Michael Jamin:What about casting? Do you enjoy that part?Jack Burditt:No, I mean, right. It's tough. I mean, I know that a lot of Cassie now is done on tape, and I know that's its own problem. I know a lot of actors hate that, but I just feel so bad and being in the room with actors and you know, have 15 people coming in for a role and you're like, I could give this to 13 of them, anybody's going to be really good, so I'm going to pick this person. But a bunch of people who easily could have this job will not get it. I hate being in that position.Michael Jamin:So that's what it is. It's about you not wanting to hurt people that you don't, the part you don'tJack Burditt:Like. Yes. Yes.Michael Jamin:Interesting.Jack Burditt:Yeah, because I'm, there's so many good people out there, and there's so few jobs,Michael Jamin:Right? Yeah. What do you have, what's your interaction, I guess? What's your, yeah, what do you tell new actors to, how do you make 'em feel good? And do you have advice for them? I guessJack Burditt:It's funny because sometimes it's just like, they come in and what was in my head, they just nail it. And I'm like, that's great. But there's other times where actors will come in and do something that's completely different and really surprise me. And I go, alright, let's do it that way. And then I will wind up rewriting the role for them. Because Do youMichael Jamin:Tell that?Jack Burditt:I have told them that. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Well, how do, what do they feel about that? They must be very flattered.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting because you've been doing it so long, it's kind of interesting. I don't really talk about this, but you've been doing it so long, it's really not about, at this point, it's not about always getting what's out of your head casting that you're like, okay, yeah, I'll do some, I'll just surprise me, do something different. It's no longer about your ego at this point. It's about just what's interesting, right?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And when I say I hate Cassian, it's not like I hate, I'm rooting for everyone that walks through the door. I want everyone to be great, and that's it. Not because I know there's certain writers who just have a sour feeling about all actors or whatever. It's like, it's not that at all. In my case,Michael Jamin:Although, but now, because it's like, how much do you do when you're watching on tape? How much will you give them? If they have the three minute audition, how long will you watch the whole thing?Jack Burditt:Yeah, I do. I do.Michael Jamin:That's good of you. Yeah. That's really good of you. Because you know, might be reading 10 actors.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I know. But I just feel like I owe it to them.Michael Jamin:That's really good of you, especially at the end of the day when you're tired or you have more things toJack Burditt:Do. Yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin:And then on set, what else? Exactly. Let's say, I know we're getting back to the 30 Rock, but what are you looking at when you're on set? Or is it just all script? It's all about the words.Jack Burditt:Yeah. Mostly. I'm not one of those. Very rarely will I go in and go, this is blocked wrong, or anything like that. Or the act. Yeah, it's mostly about the words,Michael Jamin:Really. Yeah. So it's not even about making sure you have the right coverage. You just whatever you, you'll trust that to the director or theJack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:The dp. Yes.Jack Burditt:I mean, yeah, I'll call that out every once in a while. Like I don't think we, I got this reaction. I think the actor gave us the reaction. I don't think we have itMichael Jamin:On camera. Yeah, yeah. Right. And I'm sure you learned a lot just from being in post, right? Yes.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I know. It's one of the reasons we're running circles around Disney and other studios now, picketing, one of the big issues is younger writers aren't getting a chance to either be on set or do post. And I mean, if you're writing tell, youMichael Jamin:Have to know all this. YouJack Burditt:Got to know all of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, they don't, it's so odd because I think they're just being shortsighted it, it's going to be fine five or 10 years. But after that, when the older writers were done, these younger writers, they're not going to have this studio system. They, they created this thing that works, this Hollywood machine that really works well. And I feel like they're just trying to save a couple of bucks, but they're going to destroy it 10 or 15 years from now. What are you doing?Jack Burditt:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Hollywood has this monopoly that they're just kind of ruining. I don't know why they'd want to do that.Jack Burditt:Didn't your writing completely change after you started doing Post the way you would write a script?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it would. Well, it, not only that, it changed the way we would shoot it. We were hired on a job just because Steve and I knew how to look at the cameras we were hired on for pre-production, but they kept us through production because we knew what to do, how to watch the cameras, which the other people didn't know how to do. But yeah. But now you were also mentioning your post-production is so long. This is something I know very little about. Special effects. What is that whole process on with the show you're on now?Jack Burditt:Yeah.Michael Jamin:What do I need to know? If I were to say, kill you and take your jump,Jack Burditt:What you need to know isMichael Jamin:Don't do it. Don't take the jump.Jack Burditt:All the effects is so much more expensive than you can ever imagine.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah. So is a lot of green screen, is it rotoscope? What is this?Jack Burditt:Yeah, yeah, it's green screen. Yeah, IMichael Jamin:So when you're on set, how do you know if they're doing it right? I know. I never know. I don't.Jack Burditt:No, you got to trust it, I guessMichael Jamin:At theJack Burditt:Time. You got to be like, I hope. Yeah, we were, and we shot stuff this year that I was just like, so those mountains we see in the background, because this is supposed to be Chicago we're in, and not Santa Clarita, those mountains will be gone. I don't know if there's no money in the budget, suddenly Chicago's going to have a mountains,Michael Jamin:So they'll take all of, so it's all, yeah, even that, that's not even, okay, so it's not evenJack Burditt:That's green screen. It's right. It's like things to paint out, or they're dealing with a green horse head on set and you have person talking to it, and you have to trust that at some point, that's going to be a character talking to a reindeer and the reindeer's talking back.Michael Jamin:Right. And that, so you are overseeing that whole process. So in other words, if the map looks funny to you, you're like, nah, can you do it again? The map looks stupid, orJack Burditt:Yeah. Yeah. You'll giveMichael Jamin:Those kind ofJack Burditt:Notes. Yeah, yeah. Until you're told we have no more money and no more.Michael Jamin:It's like,Jack Burditt:Oh. And then you're like, oh, it looks fine.Michael Jamin:You know what though? But yeah, when we did Maryland, which is such a low budget show, if there was one shot, the cameras in front of the door at the door of a house and the door swings open, and for a fraction of a second, you can see the camera looking in the reflection of the camera in the door, but only if you're looking and only for a half a frame. And they said, oh, we'll just take that out. The post-production super supervisor says, Hey, we have some money, we'll take it out. I'm like, why bother? I didn't see it,Jack Burditt:ButMichael Jamin:It was going to cost a lot of money. I was like, I don't, is this really matter to us? But they did. They removed it. I was amazed. It was like a $5,000. And it doesn't make the show better. It just doesn't make it worse, I guess, right?Jack Burditt:Yes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So interesting. What do you say, I don't know. What's it like with working with young writers now? What do you say to the young writers? Tell me,Jack Burditt:What do you say? I mean,Michael Jamin:What's it like working with young writers because you are still working in network? Big shows. I'm on mostly low budget shows where it's like three people complaining or whatever. IJack Burditt:Mean, it's fun. Yeah, it's fun working with young writers. They're soMichael Jamin:Enthusiastic.Jack Burditt:They are very enthusiastic. And then look, I mean, on Santa Clauss in season one, I mean, our two staff writers came in and pitched this whole Santa Claus mythology to dive into, and it's really become a big part of the show. TheyMichael Jamin:Pitched it before they got hired, or when they got hired,Jack Burditt:When they got hired.Michael Jamin:So they came in on their own. They said, Hey, what about this? And thatJack Burditt:Sounds smart, and let's really dive into the mythology of Santa Claus and past Santa Clauses and Oh, wow. And it really kind of opened a lot of avenues and it made it interesting. And I honestly think it bought us, when we did it last year, it's supposed to be one time limited series, and it did really well. But I also think that storytelling that the staff writers brought in kind of helped get a second season to, that's interesting. Oh, there's other areas that dig, get we. It's not just about Tim Allen playing Scott Calvin as Santa Claus, and he got a family. But there's this entire world, and I don't know the mythology world that much. I watched some of these shows or whatever, but I never broken them down before. But these writers were just, a lot of the young writers, they're very much into that. And soMichael Jamin:I have noticed that too. When we work with young writers, they're very enthusiastic, very. And a lot of them come in, it's day one, and they got piles of ideas and the showrunner's, all right, and then what do we got? And they come up, they start pitching their ideas and they're like, whew, at least someone came prepared. Let's do their idea. Because the older writer's like, I don't really know. We'll have to bang our head up against the wall. But the young kids, they got ideas. Let's do those. Yeah, yeah. They're enthusiastic, but, and so I want to go through some of your credits here. You have so many interesting, I don't know. I guess, tell me how you, I guess let's start with this. How did you first break into the business?Jack Burditt:It was almost like, it should have been expected of me, but I kind of went away from it. So both my parents did this, right? I mean, originally from Cleveland, my dad was a greeting card writer, but then some of his friends, his greeting card friends started moving out to LA and working on variety shows and things like that. And at some point my dad, like midlife decides, yeah, I'm going to give that a try.Michael Jamin:Fuck all this sunshine greeting cards. This is some comedy. And when you say midlife, how old was he?Jack Burditt:He was in his fortiesMichael Jamin:And he broke in his forties.Jack Burditt:He broke in his forties, I guess it was a different time. Yeah. So we stayed in Cleveland while my dad came out and for a year tried to make it and then got on a show, a variety show, and he is like, all right, looks like I got a good job andMichael Jamin:Out. And what show was that though? Do you remember? It was a,Jack Burditt:Yes. So it was a show called Turn On, which is famous for being canceled. Even almost halfway through the airing of the first episode.Michael Jamin:At the first act, we got to get this thing off.Jack Burditt:There were so many calls to the network, which I, I'm trying to remember. Maybe A, B, C, maybe N B C.Michael Jamin:Why? Because there were so messy, there were soJack Burditt:Many calls complaining about it. It was done by some of the same people that did laughing and it was like, let's take laughing, but speed it up even quicker and make faster jokes and go all and make it insane. So yeah, it had a 13 order, so that's why we moved. He moved the family out here and then boom, after one episode, he's out of work.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. It's hilarious. We, that's so funny, Steve. And we did a show once and we had a long, kind of a long contract. I go, what if we have to stay on this show? He goes, Steve's like this show's canceled up the act pretty soon as they air. And he was kind of right. Okay. So then after that show, what happened after the show was canceled to your dad? SoJack Burditt:Then thankfully a little bit after that, then he started writing on the Andy Williams show and which was done at N B C and Burbank. And we lived in an apartment a block from Burbank. And so kind of grew up around it. I grew up in Burbank, and then he did other variety shows. Sonny and Cher was the big one. He did, but he did a lot of things. You probably never heard of the Lola Ana show, the Hudson Brothers show. He did. But I guess the mid seventies he really started, he started realizing variety shows are going away.Michael Jamin:Well, there were a ton of them. There was Donny and Marie. I mean, it was the realJack Burditt:Big deal. But he, I wanted to make the switch to sitcoms and he had a writing partner and they wrote a Jeffersons, they wrote on Jeffersons, they wrote all in the Family and Sanford and Son,Michael Jamin:All amazing shows.Jack Burditt:And then the guys who ran the Jeffersons started three, each company. And then that's what my dad and his partner did. They jumped ship and they went on this new show, threes company, which was just this massive, massive hit.Michael Jamin:But all those shows were massive. All of my favorite shows, I didn't know he did three's company. Oh my God.Jack Burditt:Yeah. So I think he wound up writing probably more episodes of Three's company than anybody. I think SoMichael Jamin:Did you go to set a lot? Did what wasJack Burditt:Growing? Yeah, and it was funny. So yeah, I was kind of fascinated by it. I got a kick out of it. I never thought of it as a career. I'm like, my brother and my sister are really smart. I'm kind of the dummy of the family.And I always thought, oh, maybe they'll do something in there. My brother would make home movie. He is always making movies with those Super eight. But yeah, I just going, I thought it was fun to, I would go to Sonny and Cher, go to see those tapings, and then down the hall all in the family would be shooting and my dad would go, you want to go down to see Hall in the family? Yeah. I went down and just some dump, dump kid wandering around C B s television City. And then we'd go by and I'd watch Carol Burnett being filmed and amazing. And never occurred to me that this could be a career in any way.Michael Jamin:I don't know why your dad was doing it.Jack Burditt:Yeah, I don't know. I really, because like these are all smart, funny people doing it, I guess.Michael Jamin:And then when you went into the, weren't you in the military after? Did you not or was there somebody else? No. Oh, okay. Alright. So what? I wasJack Burditt:Not, my daughter went in the military, somebodyMichael Jamin:Thinking, no, I know, but I thought you did. But I guess, or I didn't wait, but IJack Burditt:Know. No, no, no. I, oh, I worked at Lockheed. I did. I mean, thatMichael Jamin:Makes mean they make stuff in theJack Burditt:Military's. I worked on missiles. So maybeMichael Jamin:What did you do in the missiles? What did you put gunpowder in it?Jack Burditt:I honestly, I don't think I'm allowed to say everything I did. Is thatMichael Jamin:Right? You had security clearance?Jack Burditt:Probably shouldn't have said missiles. I can say missiles. It's been a long time. We know Lockheed, they made missiles, so Right.Michael Jamin:Wow. My college roommate, he was on Secret Service detail for many years. And when I ran him to at college reunion, I hadn't seen him many years and I was like, dude, I can't believe we're on Secret Service. How many of them are many are there on the Secret Service detail? And he goes, that's classified. I go, that's the answer I wanted. That's all I wanted. I don't care about the number, I want you to tell me it's classified. Okay. Alright. So then at what point after you decided you didn't want to make missiles anymore, did you get into comedy writing?Jack Burditt:So the one thing I did know I could do was write,Michael Jamin:How did you know?Jack Burditt:Just in high school, I mean, like I said, I'm kind of a dummy and I barely graduated from high school. And the only way I graduated from high school was I loaded up on any course that had writing in it. I can bss my way through this. So I knew that. Also knew I enjoyed writing. I would just write stuff all the time. And then I liked journalism a lot. And so after high school, did a little bit of college, but not really didn't. And I worked at Magic Mountain as the right operator. AndMichael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Jack Burditt:Got yeah, started going out with another ride operator, and at some point she got pregnant and we're like, eh, let's get married. See how this goes. We're dumb teenagers. And we got married and we're still married today.Michael Jamin:But then didJack Burditt:So because of that, because I had to be responsible. I can't continue working as a riot operator. Then I worked at Lockheed, and that's where I did the missiles thing. But my wife, her friend worked at the Daily News, Los Angeles Daily News, and she knew I was interested in journalism and she got me a job as they called 'em copy boys at the time. They're editorial assistants, basically a PA for newspapers. And back then stuff still came over. The wire wasn't computer and you'd rip the wire and get different people. So I was working there for a few months and still hustling, trying to pitch editors on, can I write something? And they're like, who is this dumb kid? But then, yeah, I met the entertainment editor and just started hanging around and he took a liking to me and I got an assignment to interview a band. And that was my first, it was my first writing gig, my first professional writing.Michael Jamin:What was the band?Jack Burditt:It was a country group called Alabama. Oh,Michael Jamin:Sure. But that's not sitcom, right? That's not narrative.Jack Burditt:No. And I was really happy working for newspapers. I really enjoyed it. But while I was working there, I was working with a couple other reporters who wanted to get into script writing, and they had heard at one point about my dad.Michael Jamin:They're like,Jack Burditt:Why aren't you doing this? Yeah. I'm like, he does it. And he does it really well. I don't guess that's the biggest part of it is my dad did it so well. I didn't want to be the guy who's trying to do the same thing and being bad at it. Interesting. And I think that was always a fear, but one of these reporters, he had been in special forces and he wanted to write action movies. So the three of us would sit there and write these spec action movies, scripts, we'd get drunk a lot too, and doing that. And we got an agent, not a very good agent, but we got an agent and nothing was happening with that. And at some point I was like, you know what? We should try tv. And the guy who was in the Special Forces, he's like, I don't like tv. I don't watch tv. And he really didn't. But I think I convinced, I think at one point we wrote a cheer speck and I, I wrote a lot and I mostly wrote specs on my own. I just liked writing. I mean, geez, I probably wrote, so wrote the cheers. You wrote a Roseanne. Wow. Probably a home improvement.Michael Jamin:But did you really know then how to write, how act breaks? Did you really, I, there's a difference between knowing how to writing and enjoying writing and knowing how to write.Jack Burditt:So I didn't know what I was doing. And so I didn't really go to my dad for advice. And by this point, my mom was also became a television writer. She was writing in one hours, and I did not bug them about it. And it was just idiotic. And I think there was an embarrassment on my part or I, I'm not sure exactly why. So interesting. But I got a job reading scripts picking up, so did it for Tristar, did it for Disney Channel, did it for a couple play as a script reader and doing notes. And that to me was the education really. And I started to really see what worked, what didn't,Michael Jamin:The scripts.Jack Burditt:And I remember I read a couple books and read articles on writing, and it was always, those first 10 pages better be great. And I did discover a world where so many people had a really strong first 10 pages, and then it all fell off a cliff. And I'm like, no, I think it's those middle of the scripts that if you can nail that, then you're in good shape.Michael Jamin:But when did you, because for me, it really took many years, even as after we became professional writers, before I really kind of understood how to write. Yeah, it was mostly relying on more senior writers to do the heavyJack Burditt:Lifting. Right, right.Michael Jamin:Well, when did you figure that out?Jack Burditt:I mean, yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I did the script reading. I was still doing journalism, did the script reading on the side, and I think that really helped. Then I got a job at Disney as a script reader, and I was like full-time on the lot doing that. And then I was just around it and around people who talked about scripts and which is really, I would go to meetings that I should not have been in. I was in meetings with Michael Eisner and Jeffrey, and where they're talking about projects coming up and how to do this or do that. And I also didn't know my place. I would, I remember one point argue with Eisner, and then after the meeting, my boss said, you can never do that again.Michael Jamin:We did the show for him. This was a Michael Eisner show, and we would try to, he was a good boss, but we would try to convince him if he was stuck on something, there was no way you were going to change his mind ever. Not in a million years. And so it was his way. Okay. But for the most part, he let us do what we wanted, but once in a while he'd say, no, we're not going to do it my way. Well, you have the money. SoJack Burditt:There was one point, so there was a project, it was for the Disney Sunday movie, and Disney had signed these triplets, they're called Creole Creole triplets, and they're cute, I think 16 year olds. And Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted a show where, or a movie where on their 16th birthday, they discovered their witches. And so it was kind of charmed before Charmed. And I had been in those meetings where Kastenberg talked about it. So they hired a writer, and that writer, the first writer they got didn't really nail it. And then I had been in those meetings, I gave notes on it. They wanted me to give notes and say, this is what it should be. And then they wound up going with another writer, and she wasn't nailing it. And I gave notes and she did another pass. And it's like, I know this isn't what he wants. And so I did what you're not supposed to do. And over a weekend, I wrote, rewrote the first 30 pages of the script. And I went in Monday and I gave it to my boss, and I said, here's what I did. And she said, you can get fired for this.Michael Jamin:Why can't you get fired for that?Jack Burditt:Because I'm a reader. I'm not allowed to take a project and do my own pass on it. ButMichael Jamin:Why not though? BecauseJack Burditt:I don't know, there'sMichael Jamin:Still her version and then there's your version.Jack Burditt:It is a rule. Or maybe they just wanted to fire me. I don't know. Okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know how the rules were. Okay, so you did this and she said, you shouldn't do this.Jack Burditt:She goes, yeah. She goes, you can get fired for this. I go, I know, but could you read it? And later that day, she came into my office, she goes, this is really good. I want to pass it up. But once again, I passed it up, you might get fired. I went, okay. And it got passed up and Kastenberg said, have this guy write the script,Michael Jamin:Then fire him. AndJack Burditt:That was your, so that was my firstMichael Jamin:Break,Jack Burditt:Yeah. Wow. And it never got made,Michael Jamin:Right?Jack Burditt:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Because things don't get made. That's how itJack Burditt:Is. Things don't get made. But then it got me, I started rewriting some Disney Channel projects and a couple, yeah, it was all these things. Nothing ever got made. I remember I was hired to write the new Mickey Mouse Club and then suddenly lost the job. And I still don't know what happened. I was you. And they're like, nah, yeah, no, you're not going to do it after all. Or that was, wow. The one with Ryan Gosling and Britney Spears andMichael Jamin:Oh my God, wow. Launched them and could've launched your career.Jack Burditt:I know I could be hanging out with all of 'em now. It'd be so much fun. So I was doing that, still working newspapers at times, still doing some script reading, the whole script reading career too. I was like always liked looking for things. And I think the only success story I ever had was I found an article in American Heritage Magazine about a newsboy strike in the 19 early 19 hundreds against Pulitzer and Hearst and I passed along because Disney was always looking for things for kids that kids could be in. And I said, Hey, I think this might be a movie. I never pitched it as a musical or anything. I thought it was a straight ahead thing, but it was like NewsiesMichael Jamin:And they, right, that became that. But you didn't have, so just whatever your job was to come up with ideas or you found an idea, you pitched it, or you put up the ladder, but you didn't get any credit. You don't get dirt. No, no. It was just, that sucks.Jack Burditt:And that's it. But yeah, also, I made money reading scripts for years, and that was the only thing that ever,Michael Jamin:Yeah, but it wasn't, I mean, you were raking it in as a script reader,Jack Burditt:Right? No, no. Right. No, no. It was mostly, it was actually a tough job for the little money. But like I said, I think that's where I learned everything. So that was helpful. And then I was still kind of kicking around, picking up little projects where I could and still work in newspapers. And I covered the riots in 92, the LA riots, and was so shook up by it. And so I really thought it was going to die up there. Everything was terrifying. And at this point, I got four kids. I'm, none of them will ever be able to go to college or anything, just scraping by. And I was like, I really need to write a great spec and try to get into sitcoms. It was finally, then I'm like, I'm really going to try this. And I wrote a Seinfeld spec that got wound up getting me with contacts I'd made Wound up getting me a really good agent. And within a few months I was on mad about you on the staffMichael Jamin:That was. And how many years were you on Mad About YouJack Burditt:Two? I did two Years On Mad About You.Michael Jamin:That was a really good show. And then Frazier, of course. And then, and most also, well, not most recently, but pretty recently, modern Family. The thing that strikes me about Modern Family is everyone in that room, I imagine it was a showrunner, potential showrunner had run shows. It'sJack Burditt:Crazy.Michael Jamin:It was really a talented room.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, yes, it was. I like being on a show early on and really being able to put whatever fingerprints I can on it and direction and take character. Oh, let's do that. I like being at the creation of something. But there was something really nice about coming into the Modern family at the end, and I only worked on the last three seasons of that show. And just being no stress, no pressure. It's just, I'll tell some of my weird family stories and maybe they'll go in the episodes andMichael Jamin:Because it must be nice knowing that anyone in that room is capable. It's okay if you're having an off day, someone else would be fine. You're in good hands no matter who's talking.Jack Burditt:It was an amazing, amazing room.Michael Jamin:It's unusual.Jack Burditt:Or rooms becauseMichael Jamin:There's multiple rooms. And did you go back and forth, because obviously Steve ran Run Room and Chris together, but did you jump back and forth, or were you in someone's room most of the time?Jack Burditt:I think the first season I was there, I was mostly in Steve's the second season. It was about half and half in the third season that I was mostly,Michael Jamin:Do you know why,Jack Burditt:Chris?Michael Jamin:I would be like, wait, does he not like me? And then if I got into that room, wait a minute, he doesn't like me anymore. I would be paranoid no matter what roomJack Burditt:I was in. Yeah, right.Michael Jamin:But it was just they wanted to mix it up or what?Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, yeah, that first year, whatever room you started in, you were kind of there. And when I say first year, my first year, it was year nine of the show, and then there was an concerted effort. The writer said, you know what? That got too weird last year. Let's always keep mixing it up.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jack Burditt:And so season 10, we really, everybody I think did about half and half.Michael Jamin:You can answer this now, but did you, before you got there, did you watch every single episode or no?Jack Burditt:Yeah, so I had watched a show a pretty much every week, I think the first three seasons and then what happened in life. And so when I knew I was going to go on the show, I got episodes four through eight, and I just watched them all, which is a horrible way to do it. Why? Because I just bing because nothing lands. Oh. Because then I found myself pitching things and they're like, we already did that. And I'm like, really? And then they would tell me the story. I'm like, oh yeah, I saw that.Michael Jamin:Was that the one I slept through? Is that,Jack Burditt:And I felt like, I think I waited too late, like, oh, I'm going to start there next week. I got to binge every episode.Michael Jamin:Wow. And then of course, yeah, you created Last Man Standing. Now you working with Tim Allen again, and yeah, I don't know. What do you see? What does the future look like? I don't know. How has it changed for you? What's your perception? What's going on with the future of writing?Jack Burditt:Future of writing? I mean, make meMichael Jamin:Feel good.Jack Burditt:Yeah. I makes me feel good. Yeah. I decide I have to stop, have to censor myself on the picket line because yeah, I message, look, it's rough. I think what we talked about earlier, young writers are not learning the skills to run a show or whatever. And it's really, I think that has to change, I think for the sake of the business. But I don't know mean for the future tough. I hope we've hit the low point right now and that things get a little bit better. But the business is broken in a way too. And I think business has to figure itself out. And as much as writers got to figure out what their place is in the business, but I keep hearing not all these streamers will exist in a couple years. Right? And I'm like, what does that mean though, too? And our network's dead or not? Or I don't know any of this. I it's, and I've never felt like I don't have a handle on the business, but right now, I don't know.Michael Jamin:It's interesting. We sold a pilot to, I don't want to say which one, we, to a streamer, this is, I don't know, a year or so ago. And then we turned it in and it just sat on someone's desk for probably close to a year before they finally said, it's dead. It took 'em that long to say. Yeah. And then I think what happened was, usually you find out in a couple of weeks or whatever, but I think what happened was they couldn't decide if the streamer was dead or not. It wasn't really about their show. Oh, it was about the future of the streamer. I think that's what they're thinking about. It's like, are we really going to do this? Why are we in business? So I don't know.Jack Burditt:I can't believe Netflix is thinking that way, butMichael Jamin:Between me and you, you'll hear it here first. You heard it here first,Jack Burditt:ButMichael Jamin:You know what though, Jack, you are like us. I said this to Andy Gordon because, and Andy obviously, he just really enjoys writing. And you're the same way. I feel like you're just like, Andy will write and whatever. I don't really care. I'll just write something. As long as I'm writing, I do it the same way. Yeah,Jack Burditt:It, I mean, yeah, I'm always just writing things, just I do enjoy it. And Andy, you're right. Andy is another person I know, just loves it. Loves, yeah. Andy not only loves writing so much, loves everything about the business.Michael Jamin:He does. He does.Jack Burditt:And it's infectious being around him. Yeah. How much he loves it. HeMichael Jamin:Loves it. He'll take pictures. We did a show, did show in the scrim in the back, the background on stage was you could see his house. It was a Hollywood scrim, and you could see his house in that hill. And he was so excited to see his house in the scrim. Yes. That's awesome. Because he always walks around with a camera. He captures every moment. So exciting to him.Jack Burditt:He's also just one of the funniest writers. That's hilarious. And just shoot me when you're, I'll say being in that room, that was such a great room. And I also just remember, I do love, right? And I, I'll work harder than everybody. I also feel like I'm not as funny as in that room. I'm like, I know I'm not as funny as Andy or Danny or you.Michael Jamin:I don't put thatJack Burditt:Jack. No, no. Absolutely. 100% I, I'd be in that room and I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to out. Funny. These guys maybe work. And I did have a nice reputation. The best thing I've had is that I turn in great first drafts. You do. And that always my thing. It's like I don't eat or sleep when I'm working on a draft. And I just, because out of fear, I got to be as good as everybody else who's just so naturally funny. I don't know.Michael Jamin:AndJack Burditt:I would just grind and grind and grind. And even when we're in a room and going down a road and everybody's pitching really funny things, I'm like, I'm not going to be able to join in and out, pitch them. So my whole strategy was always, is there another way to go with this story?Michael Jamin:How funny. AndJack Burditt:So sometimes I would just, sometimes I couldn't figure it out and I would just be a quiet in the corner. Other times it'd be like, yeah, that's great. What if we did that? And I felt like that was, sometimes my skill is like,Michael Jamin:But even, but wait. But if that, well, first way was getting traction. If the first idea was getting traction, you wouldn't derail it with a pitch that said, what about that? IJack Burditt:Wouldn't, no. But I would like, no, not saying send the whole story, but another way to wrap up that scene or another way to try to come up with just something if it's heading some to surprise people and Yeah, this is funny. This is funny. It's going this way, this way. Oh, that happens.Michael Jamin:I don't know. What season just showed me was we were in one of the bungalows, I don't know, whatever it was. I have a clear, remember of you coming out of your office, you are off on draft on script, and you come and you were just exhausted. And it was just like, oh man. Poor Jack is on script. Yeah, you were really in it, man. You were when you're on script. Yeah, I remember that really well. You were suffering and you always turn in terrific drafts. I don't know what you're talking about, because it was always funny on page. And the most important thing is it funny on, and I don't even know how you did it, because when ER and I worked together, we know it's funny because the other person's laughing, but I always felt like, how do you know it? Because how do you know? I don't know how you did it alone. I really don't. Like how do you know it was going to be funny when you turned it in?Jack Burditt:Yeah. I mean, always felt like though there, it felt like almost every draft I turn in, there was always one or two jokes where people go, I don't get this. And I'd be like, I'd start to defend it and then realize like, yeah, no, it doesn't make sense.Michael Jamin:Don't get it either. I thought I was going to pull a wool over your eyes, butJack Burditt:Do youMichael Jamin:Keep some kind of notebook now when you have ideas or what do you do?Jack Burditt:No, I used to carry a notebook everywhere I went. Really? I don't anymore. And I don't know. At some point I'm like, eh, if I don't remember it, it wasn't that good to begin with. But I know there's a couple things I've forgotten. I'm like, I know. That was good. I can't remember what that wasMichael Jamin:Exactly. What Siebert and I say when we're on Tacoma fd, because we don't take a lot of notes. And there always our feelings. Well, if you don't remember, it was probably no good. No, but it was good. I dunno, maybe I should write it down, I guess. Oh, we should feel like you can come with something else. It's like it's not the end of the world. You come up with something, a better joke or whatever. Right. Anyway, that's so funny. Well, Jack, I want to thank you so much. This is an interesting talk. I really enjoyed this. I definitely enjoy getting your perspective on all of this, damn, honestly. And I have to, I'll say one last thing before I let you leave. You were always very support. I was a younger writer on just Shoot me. And you were very supportive of me. And I remember you sticking up for me one day and I really appreciate that. I don't remember what the details, but I said something, it was a joke. We were pitching on something. It was probably 10 o'clock at night. I was by by exhaust. And I pitched something that was kind of incoherent andSomeone started making fun of me, which you're supposed to do in the writer's room. You're supposed to make fun of the other person. But you came to my defense, you're like, no, this is his process. This is how he comes up with stuff. Leave him alone. And I always remembered that and little things like that. It's important. Oh,Jack Burditt:Well, itMichael Jamin:Really meant a lot. Really meant a lot to me.Jack Burditt:No, I liked your process too, because it was all out loud and you would try to, that's theMichael Jamin:Bad part.Jack Burditt:No, but it was interesting to me like, oh, I feel like it's what happens in a music studio, and I'm trying to figure out the thing. Yes, most people I think would keep it, try to figure it out in their head. But I also felt like with your process, because trying to get it right, you would throw something out and then work it and work it. But I also felt like there were times where you throw something out and you started working it, but then somebody else would pick up on it and I'm like, oh, maybe. To me it was like I always kept it inside until I felt like was I was 100% cooked and I probably shouldn't have at times. At times I'm like, I should have thrown something out that was half cooked and maybe gotten some help.Michael Jamin:But that's the thing. And I feel like I should have, I have not say everything out loud. That also can be a burden. When you're just spewing on stuff that's not ready to be heard, then everyone's shut up. So I can think, but how I think it's like whatever you're doing, you're always, am I doing it right? Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Whatever you're doing. I always feel like I'm probably doing it the wrong way. Someone else is doing it better.Jack Burditt:Right. Well, and that's one, and this, I guess would be the advice for younger writers if they ever happen to get into a room too. Yeah. It's just one thing I learned very late in life on this is every writer in that room is terrified that they're failing. Even the veterans, even ones have been doing it a long time, they're just like, oh shit. Oh man, if I don't, I got to get their, everybody is in their own heads, but do youMichael Jamin:Still feel that though? I mean, do you feel like other veteran writers that you currently work with or work with in the recent past feel that way still?Jack Burditt:I think the really good ones feel thatMichael Jamin:Way. Really?Jack Burditt:Yes.Michael Jamin:They feel like they're, they're stru. This is all garbage. It's all gone downhill. Yeah. Really. The good ones interesting. I'll have to get names from you, but I certainly feel like whenever we start a script, I'm like, ah, crap. You know what I really feel, I felt like, and I remember on Just Shoot Me Feeling This, every time you write a story, you break someone. We would break a story in the room and I always felt like, well, that's it. There's no more stories. That's it. How could there be more? It took us how took a week to figure out this one. Yes,Jack Burditt:Yes. Yeah. I know. It was all, yes. Especially those times where it really took a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jack Burditt:How did that take so much? We're we're done. Yeah, we, we've explored these characters too much and now,Michael Jamin:But you must've felt that way in Modern Family though, when you've done season nine,Jack Burditt:Right? I mean, yeah.Michael Jamin:You've done everything. I mean, I know in Simpsons they say, yeah, but we've only done it three times. Right.Jack Burditt:So we can still do it was this week. One more time out of it,Michael Jamin:But that shows 30 years old or whatever.Jack Burditt:God. But it's incredible.Michael Jamin:Alright, well Jack, thank you again so much. Yeah, it really was such a pleasure. This is a good talk. Alright everyone, until next week, keep tuned. Keep writing is what I all, I always say. Alright. Thanks again, Jack.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @ MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Today on the show we have writer and showrunner Michael Jamin. Michael has been writing for television since 1996. His many credits include Just Shoot Me, King of the Hill, Beavis & Butthead, Wilfred, Out of Practice, Rules of Engagement, Lopez and Tacoma FD.He's also served as Executive Producer/Showrunner on Glenn Martin DDS, Maron, and Rhett & Link's Buddy System. Michael currently lives in Los Angeles where he's working on a collection of personal essays to be released in 2020. Michael also launched a new course to help writers interested in working in streaming/television. It's called The Showrunner's Guide to TV Writing. Here's the pitch by Michael.I've watched a bunch of Masterclass videos. They feature amazingly talented writers talking about their craft. At $200, it's a great way to get exposed to their genius. My course is not about getting you exposed. And I want to do more than just inspire you. I do a lot of hand-holding in these lessons. I show you how to take a kernel of an idea, break it into a story with act breaks, then develop that story from outline to script.I lay out the exact process that I use every day to write stories that make people laugh and cry. It's about creating an easily managed structure so that the creative process isn't so daunting. You should continue to draw inspiration from the masters. I certainly do. But if you need more than just inspiration, I can be your guide.Enjoy my conversation with Michael Jamin.This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/2664729/advertisement

Stephen Engel is an Emmy Nominated Showrunner of Dream On. He's known for The Big Bang Theory, A.N.T. Farm, Mad About You, and Just Shoot Me! Join Michael and Stephen as they discuss how Stephen broke in, what it takes to make it in Hollywood, and how he approaches story.Show NotesStephen Engel on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0257145/Stephen Engel on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_EngelFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My next guest is a great dude and one of the first dudes I've ever worked with in Hollywood as a TV writer, Mr. Stephen Engel. And his credits are, well, geez man. These guys come fantastic credits. Dream on which you ran. He was the showrunner of Dream on. I did. We're going to talk about that because that was one of my favorite shows. Mad about You. All right. Already. Which you created. You co right? You co-created it orStephen Engel:You created I didn't create it. I ran it though. You ran it? Executive. I supervised an executive who the pilot and then ran the series. Co-ran the series.Michael Jamin:All right. Okay. Just shoot me, which we worked on together. Work With Me. Which that were you cr Wait,Stephen Engel:Did you create That? I created, that I createdMichael Jamin:Now was it work with Me or Work With Me? ItStephen Engel:Was work with me. It was work with me. It was Work with meMichael Jamin:Inside Schwartz, which I know you created and I, yes. Remember I helped out for a day or a day and a half. Yeah. I think I gave you a three hours worth of work in a day and a half.Stephen Engel:It was very appreciated.Michael Jamin:The big house. Yeah. Quintuplets, the war at Home, big Bang Theory. Ant Farm, mighty Med Sigman and the Sea Monsters. Yeah. Yeah. You got a lot of credits, dude. Now I,Stephen Engel:I've been around. I've been around. You'veMichael Jamin:Been around. Tell me, well, let's first begin with the beginning. Okay. Because I know you started as a lawyer.Stephen Engel:That is correct.Michael Jamin:And how long were you lawyering?Stephen Engel:It felt like forever, but it was really only three years maybe. AndMichael Jamin:This is in New York, right out of law school.Stephen Engel:I went to law school, which was a very big mistake. I knew within a month that I'd made a terrible mistake, maybe sooner.Michael Jamin:But why?Stephen Engel:I just got there. I went straight from college. Really? Cause I didn't know what else to do. And back then I didn't know I lived in New York. I grew up in a town away from you. And I didn't know what the TV was. I didn't know anything about. And so I was good at going to school. So I went to law school, I applied, I got into a good law school. I went and I just got there and it was like just stultifying, if that's the word it was. ButMichael Jamin:I thought, what I've heard is that law school is interesting. It's being a lawyer. That's not fun.Stephen Engel:No, I had all through college, I wasn't really do a lot of creative writing. I didn't take creative writing courses. But I was actually looking back at some, I found some of my old economics papers and I reread them and I wrote them as if they were Woody Allen vignettes for the new they, they had these big tee ups that were comedic. And then I would get into the substance, but it was with examples that were funny. And then I would sort of sum them up at the end and my professor would always be like, thank you. After reading 25 papers, there's a pleasure to read something that was entertaining. Oh,Michael Jamin:That's nice. SoStephen Engel:When you get to law school, there was no leeway for that. It was, everything was just completely dry. So intellectually it was kind of interesting, but it was very creatively stifling.Michael Jamin:But as a kid you didn't do any creative. No. You were in the theater, you weren't doing anything like that?Stephen Engel:No, not really. I mean, I was interested in comedy. If I look backwards, I could see all of these things that I did. I did a TV show in college, a game show that I wrote and hosted. I taught a class on 20th century humor and satire. So all of the things were there. In retrospect, you could see a path that was leading to writing comedy. But I didn't know that it was a job. And it wasn't really until law school that I started exploring doing comedy. I started doing standup a little bit. Really?Michael Jamin:I didn't know that.Stephen Engel:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But then how did you realize it was a job? At what point?Stephen Engel:At the time, I had a friend who was doing from college who was doing standup also. We, our girlfriends were best friends and he was a year behind me. He was applied to law school, didn't go and decided he wanted to try to break into writing. And we were both doing standup. And then we said, we just started talking and said we should write a movie. We're like, okay. So we kind of got together one weekend. He was living in la I was in NYU law school. I interviewed for law at law firms in California. So they would fly me out so that we could get together and talk about movie ideas.Michael Jamin:OhStephen Engel:Wow. Yeah. So we came up with an idea. We started writing separately and we knew nothing. We literally knew nothing about writing screenplays. We just had seen movies and you knows. And so we were like started writing this idea that we thought it was really great. We had about 50 pages that we thought were fantastic. So we ended up through, a friend of a friend had lunch with a guy who was a professional screenwriter and he told us, you know, should read this book screenplay by Sid Field, which everyone should read. They're trying to write. So we read this book and we're like, oh no, you're doing it wrong. We dunno anything. And we realized that the 50 pages that we wrote that we thought were gold should have been five pages. Nothing was happening. It was just character development, character development, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, funny scenes. So we took those 50 pages, compressed them down to five pages and came up with a proper structure. And then we were writing this whole movie. Well, he was pursuing his career and I was a lawyer guy guy's name by the way is Rob Burnett, who we were writing partners. And he went on to great success at David Letterman. And he was executiveMichael Jamin:Producer of le. But was he the head writer or executiveStephen Engel:Producer? Head writer, executive producer. And basically president of Worldwide Pants. And we wrote five movies together for studios, various studios. And ultimately I got a job on Dream On and moved out to LA to write by myself because he was writing a Letterman by himself. And at that point we didn't need to collaborate because we both had individual careers.Michael Jamin:You skipped a step. How did you get hired on Dream On?Stephen Engel:Okay. He and I were writing this movie. I got a law job when I graduated. They, I'd worked there for the summer. They offered me a job when I graduated. And I did the first risky thing I'd ever done in my life. I had never done anything remotely rebellious. And I decided that I was going to take probably the first gap year that anyone ever took. Oh wow. I asked the firm if I could defer my job for a year because I was trying to write. They're like, okay, yeah, no problem. You'll have a job waiting for you in a year. So during that year we kept working on this screenplay and trying to finish it and hone it. And he was still working at Letterman and he at that point had had risen from an intern to work in the talent department to being a writer.So he worked with a woman, we finished a screenplay and he worked with a woman. He shared an office in the talent department with a woman who had been there a long time and decided to leave to become a manager. And her only client at that point was I think Chris Elliot who had been on Letterman. So he knew, she knew that we had this movie because Rob had mentioned, she's like, let me see it when you're done. I'll see if I could do anything with it. So she read it and she sent it out and got us hired to write a movie for 20th Century Fox. Oh wow. A week before I started my law job. And I didn't want to not start the law job because we were a writing team. It was like guild minimum. I thought this may be the only writing job I ever have and I have a pretty high paying law job. Let me try to do both and keep both paths open as long as I can. So I did that essentially for three years. I practiced law while I was writing the entire time writing movies for studios.Michael Jamin:And Wait, and you were practicing law out here in la?Stephen Engel:I was in New York. YouMichael Jamin:Were still in New York?Stephen Engel:I was still in New York. And essentially the law didn't know what I was doing. So I had this double life where I was treating my law job, this very prestigious law job. I was a bartender gig writing movies at the same time. And eventually I couldn't keep all the balls up in the air. The law firm said, you know what? We want you to go, we got a great treat for you. We're going to send you back to law school at night to get your master's in tax law. I'm like, that's fantastic. And I didn't tell them was, now I had two jobs and I was going to school at nightMichael Jamin:And you couldn't turn down. You couldn't turn on their offer.Stephen Engel:I couldn't tell them. And eventually I couldn't do it anymore. I was getting too much work at the law firm. I had school screenplays, deadlines. I just finally kind of went into work one day and just kind of said, I no moss.Michael Jamin:How'd that go over?Stephen Engel:They were like, you know what, this makes so much sense because we were all, you seem really smart and you're really good at what you do, but it just didn't feel like your heart was in it. Yeah, right. So they could tell and it answered a lot of questions for them. So then I quit and decided to write full time panicked that I had just thrown my entire life away. So we ended up getting, because by the way, that manager was Lori David. She went out to marry Lori Leonard who went out to marry Larry David and divorce Larry. David and then produce an Inconvenient Truth as she won an Oscar for that.Michael Jamin:But then she submit you to get, how did you your Hands fund forStephen Engel:Dream On? For Dream on. So I had, eventually what happened was we got a second screenplay deal to write another movie and she said, by the way, I am not allowed to negotiate your deal cause I'm a manager, so I'm going to bring an agent in to negotiate your deal. And we kind of said, well then I guess maybe we should look for an agent rather than just have this guy come in and do the deal and I'm not sure we really need a manager and an agent. Back then you didn't. We ended up getting an agent at icm. Right. A feature agent. And we then did a couple of other projects and eventually I started between drafts of a movie I was writing. Rob by the way, was at this point a writer at Letterman and I quit my law job. So I was like, well if he has a day job while we're writing movies at night, I need my own career as an individual.So I wrote a movie by myself, gave it to my agent, he shopped it around. I got a lot of meetings and stuff. And then I wrote a just a TV spec on the whim between drafts of this movie because I felt like taking a break from it. And I gave that to my feature agent. He gave it to a TV agent at ICM who loved it and started submitting me around. And I ended up meeting with Kaufman and Crane for a show, not Dream On, they had Dream on. And they had another pilot that was going to series on nbc.Michael Jamin:What show was that? AndStephen Engel:It was a show called The Powers that nobody saw. It was with John Forsyth and Right. David Hyde had an amazing cast. So I go to meet with them and my agent had sent me episodes of Dream On and had sent me the pilot of the show. So they come in and they go, what'd you think of the pilot? I go, yeah, it was pretty good, but I really like Dream on. I'd never seen it before. And I kept talking about Dream On and how much I loved it. And we had a really good meeting. And then when I get back, my agent calls me and says, just so you know, when you go up for a show and someone says, how'd you like the pilot? And that's the show you're up for. Yeah. You loved the pilot and it gets the show you want to work on. Right. They're not hiring for Dream on right now and they don't want to hire you on this pilot cause you didn't seem interested, interested. I'm like, okay. Yeah. And then a month later they were hiring for Dream On and they remembered me and they hired me for that instead. So I did. And in fact, I ended up back backing into this job that I much preferred.Michael Jamin:How, but how many years were you dream on before they bumped you to showrunner? Okay,Stephen Engel:So I was a stor. I went as staff writer, not had not worked a day in television. Really? Andy Gordon was Andy and Eileen. It was their first day right writer named Howard Morris. It was his first day. We were all three staff writers, but I had written five movies. So I had a pretty good understanding of story structure and if you can write a movie, you can write a tv. So I did the first season Astor as staff writer. The next season I was a story editor and then the showrunners left and they needed to find a new showrunner and they couldn't find anyone they liked. And eventually they just said, I think Stephen can do it. So I literally went from being my second year, I was a story editor or executive story editor, maybe I got a bump at the end to showrunner.Michael Jamin:That's crazy.Stephen Engel:So I was, I didn't know if I was ready at all. I was just, the only reason to say no would've been out of fear. And I realized worst case scenario, if I completely flame out then so they bring someone in over me and I'm still in the same position.Michael Jamin:And then what were they? Or they fire you, but they getStephen Engel:Rid of you. Well, I don't think they probably would've just kept me around because I was the only one who knew the show.Michael Jamin:And how many years did you run it for?Stephen Engel:I ran for the next two seasons, the last and then the show ended.Michael Jamin:And why do you think they left? Why did they leave the show? Their own show. They had a deal somewhere.Stephen Engel:Har and Crane created the show, ran it for three seasons. They were getting paid like a dollar to do this. They had never done anything. It was insane how little money they were making. And they got a deal at Warner Brothers. So between season two and three, they had created a show before Friends called Family Album. And I went and worked on that between Seasons of Friends, between Seasons of Dream On. And then I went back to Dream on as the showrunner. So the season, the second season, two other writers who had been on, who had been producers, Jeff Greens son and Jeff Straus rose to showrunner, then they left and took a deal at Universal. So there was nobody, because they weren't paying a lot, so people were going to more lucrative jobs. So they needed a showrunner and nobody had else had worked on the show. And they were like, we could bring in someone else who doesn't know the show or we could let Steven try.Michael Jamin:And I mean, you were not intimidated by, I mean, IStephen Engel:Was scared shitless.Michael Jamin:Right. I mean,Stephen Engel:I didn't know what I was doing. I had no idea. I learned, fortunately I learned from really good people,Michael Jamin:But I remember when we worked together and just shoot me the first six episodes. First season, yeah. I was, was useless. And I didn't know what to say. And I would look at you guys, the more senior writers. I'm like, how did they know what to say? How did they know? I mean it was real. I was so lost. Yeah.Stephen Engel:I think part of it had been that I was a little older than you were. I had already been a lawyer for, so I was like 30 when I had my staff writer job. So maybe I was a little bit more confident just in Gen general. You were like 25, 23.Michael Jamin:I was 26. I was 26. Ok. But ok.Stephen Engel:So I had gotten my first writing job when I was 26 writing a movie. And I, so I done a bunch of movies, I understood structure, I had a confidence in that I knew how to tell a story. So I guess I kind of, the first day of Dream On, I remember pitching something where they were telling a story that had a fairly conventional ending where everything worked out really well. And I pitched this subversive twist on it where the character looks like the character was going to win. And then at the end it all got pulled out from under him. And they were all, I think that's better because I had just not really been around network television or even any kind of television. So I was pitching kind of a lot of, I don't know, movie, more movie-like ideas I guess.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting because I really remember, I remember on jhu Me, you would stand at the board a lot. I remember, to be honest, we often disagree with Levitan. And you made such a compelling case and you're always at the board. You had immaculate handwriting and you're always standing at the board breaking the story and you'd make an argument. And it was so compelling. I'm like, maybe we should be listening to this guy. It was dooms. If we don't what's going to happen, of course there's many ways you could do it, but of course I was like, of course. I was like, wow, what's going to happen if we don't do it that way?Stephen Engel:It's very funny. I remember the first season of Dream on Howard Morris who I love. He's a great guy, very emotional guy. And I was very logical in a lot of ways. And he had written a script and he had this whole run that he really was in love with. And the script was long. We needed cuts. And I was like, I think we can cut from here to two pages later. And you really, the story actually, not only would you not miss it, but the story would actually be working better and be more tight. And he was like, you can't do that. You can't possibly do that. This is the greatest thing that's ever been written. It is really good. But I think we need cuts. And I don't think it's actually, and one by one, everybody in the room was like, I think he's right. And he was losing his mind. He was like, right, don't listen to him using his logic on you. He's a magician. And we ended up cutting it and it ended up working better. So it's funny that I guess the legal training came in, I guess to some useMichael Jamin:Well, yeah, I, but I also remember you saying, I quote you as this saying this, that I have to get this right. Your worst day as a writer was still better than your best day as a lawyer.Stephen Engel:It was probably, I'm not sure that's true anymore.Michael Jamin:I believe thatStephen Engel:For a long time that was true. I would say there have been some dark days. But whatMichael Jamin:Do dark days look like then for you? Yeah. What isStephen Engel:It? Well, the day your show gets canceled, right? There were days, there was a, one show got canceled where I was like, oh, thank God. Right? Because I had a deal behind it and it was like a nightmare. And I hated going there every minute. And I was like, I had to go into the room and pretend like I got really bad news. Everyone, the show's been canceled. I was like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. There are sometimes when it's so bad you're like, just end it. Just fucking euthanize me. So that there are days where it show you isn't going badly, gets canceled and then it's kind of heartbreaking.Michael Jamin:Now do you have a preference? Cause you've done a lot. Do you have a preference between working single camera R? Right. Writing.Stephen Engel:I prefer single camera. Why? I think it comes from my feature writing career. It was funny, I made such a conversion when I worked on that show family album with Kauffman and Crane. We went in and there was some joke in my script and it was a good joke I thought. And we go to the table read and it doesn't do great at the table. This is my first time I've ever had been to a multi cam table read ever my first multi cam script. And everyone in the room is kind of like, yeah, I think we maybe want to punch this joke. And David Crane to his credit was like, no, I believe in this joke. And there's a really good smart joke. So we go to the run through first run through, it dies. And again, everyone's like, maybe we want to pitch on this. And David's like, no, no, I really, let's give it one more day. I don't think, I feel like they didn't do a great job on it. Let's give it one more day. By the third day it dies again. And same thing. And David's like, let's give it another day. He goes, I think it's rye. I'm at this point I'm completely converted. I'm like, fuck rye. Rye is fucking crickets.We could pitch 20 more jokes. It took me three days to realize that, you know, can't get away with clever. You need to get real laughs.Michael Jamin:Right.Stephen Engel:And I'd like, I like it. I just like the storytelling in Multicam a little bit better. OrMichael Jamin:Just you, the storytelling multicam better.Stephen Engel:No, no. In single Camm a bit better. Yeah. Frankly, I used to think a perfect job for me would be you write the scripts and then you send them out magazines. You don't actually have to produce them. Oh yeah. That was always where the hard,Michael Jamin:It's never as funny as it is. It's never asStephen Engel:Funny. Sometimes it is. It depends on your cast. But other times it's the rewriting and the endless rewriting. It's just have them read it and let them imagine what it might look like.Michael Jamin:It's called a book.Stephen Engel:It's called a book. Yeah.Michael Jamin:There was a episode, I think it was, not sure if you were there then, but I, I was fighting, I fought with Sievert, my partner about a joke that I wanted in the script. I go, this joke is going to kill. And he's like, this joke is terrible. I'm like, it's going in, it's going. And we got blows over it. We put it in the script, we go to the table and the joke just dies. It gets nothing. And then I start laughing hysterically. He goes like, cause how could I have been so wrong and so arrogant? And I'm laughing hysterically Now everyone's looking at seabird because they're like, it's his joke. You're laughing atStephen Engel:Him. And now I'mMichael Jamin:Laughing even more. I'm like, yeah, it's his fucking trouble.Stephen Engel:There's nothing more humbling than watching your jokes die on a stage. Like after a while you get used to it. But the great thing about single cam on, dream on, we'd write it, we'd go out and film it. And if no one's laughing, you never know.Michael Jamin:You never know. Right. But did you can't believe in it. But you did table reads for Dream on, I'm sure, right? DidStephen Engel:Not do table reads.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting. How did you get away away with that?Stephen Engel:They had no, they didn't. They gave no notes. H B O gave no notes. I remember getting one note one time and being like, I can't work like this. This joke is, I'm not changing this joke. And I was like, indignant a playwright. Eugene O'Neal had beenMichael Jamin:MarriedStephen Engel:To change a stage direction. And then I got to network and it was like, oh, okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Now these are notes. This is how it works. When you were, now you've done also a lot of kit shows. I mean, you get a lot of notes on Kit shows more or less. Oh myStephen Engel:God. Yeah. You'd get tons of notesMichael Jamin:More than networks.Stephen Engel:I did. Oftentimes you get a note, it's like, I please take some of these jokes out. I we doesn't need to be this funny,Michael Jamin:Real, what's the problem with, all right,Stephen Engel:I can get you the best punch down. Writers in. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Bring them in. But really they don't want fun. Is that what kind of notes they give you in these show? I did aStephen Engel:Show, did a show this, show this Sigma and the Sea Monsters reboot, which wasMichael Jamin:Very scaryStephen Engel:For Amazon. And the first thing we turned in there, it was very funny. And they were like, we don't really do this. It's like, we don't want this to be funny. As nearly as funny as this script is, it's just don't feel compelled to put a joke on every page. I'm like a joke. You don't want one joke on it on every page. And they're like, no, if it's warm and fuzzy and they just were afraid that it was going to feel too Disney or tooMichael Jamin:NoStephen Engel:Jokey networky or jokey or whatever.Michael Jamin:Because when you look back at sitcoms from the sixties and seventies family affair, there weren't a lot of jokes in Family Affair. I mean,Stephen Engel:No, I think that's what they were going for. They were going for just kind of poignant and sort of warm. They, I feel they felt like jokes would alienate people and be too controversial. Or they kept referring to their viewers as customers,Michael Jamin:Buyers. TheyStephen Engel:Want buyers.Michael Jamin:Buyers,Stephen Engel:Our buyers, our customers don't really want that. I'm like, okay, all right.Michael Jamin:That's so good. I wonder if that's, that's really how they saw them is like, yeah, what else were they going to about?Stephen Engel:Yeah, yeah. It was,Michael Jamin:Oh my God. Did that make the hours easier since you didn't have to punch upStephen Engel:Or doing a sort of family shows?Michael Jamin:Are you getting out earlier?Stephen Engel:Yeah. Yeah. I think so. For the most part. We never phoned it in. We were always trying to do, and we never wrote down the shows that I worked on. We made them as funny as we could and as bendy and weird as we could, oftentimes we would get notes saying, this is too, I think you're, you kids aren't going to get this. But what they don't get, they'll ask their parents or their older siblings and let's not underestimate the audience watching Bugs Bunny cartoons. You're going to still laugh and you may not get every level. So we were kind of writing it for the adults.Michael Jamin:You were able to push back on that.Stephen Engel:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess their recourse was ultimately to cancel you if you weren't doing what they wanted you to do.Michael Jamin:Well, do they have different ways of I they must, different ways of measuring. We haven't done too many streaming shows, but measuring when people are dropping off, what kind of stuff they like more statistics. Do they share that with you?Stephen Engel:No,Michael Jamin:No, never.Stephen Engel:I only did mean the Amazon was the only streaming show and they never really wanted this show. I don't think to begin with. I think it was inherited from the previous regime or something. It was like the whole thing was driven by puppets and they were, if we had our druthers, we wouldn't even have the puppets in it. Well, well the main character is a puppet, so you're kind of stuck.Michael Jamin:So, oh man, that's Hollywood man. Yeah. Now do you, but you must get more obviously opportunities in the children's businesses.Stephen Engel:I don't. I don't. Don't. And I don't pursue them. I didn't really want to do it. Right. I basically did it. I only did it because it was a show writing opportunity and I didn't want work on someone else's show at that point. And I also leveraged it into, I wanted, I said, I'll do it if I can direct.Michael Jamin:Okay.Stephen Engel:So I ended up getting in the DGA and directing a handful of episodes.Michael Jamin:And they were single camera?Stephen Engel:No, they were multiMichael Jamin:Camera, multi and so interesting.Stephen Engel:And it was kind of fun. I mean, I had just sort of aged out of coaching my kids little league and basketball teams and stuff. So they were now just had just more or less finished that. So working on a show, that was almost like being a coach or a camp counselor in a weird way. You'd go to the stage, the kids would be thrilled to see you, you'd get down on one knee and get eye level with them and give them a compliment sandwich. Do you know that from coaching?Michael Jamin:No. What is that?Stephen Engel:A compliment sandwich is basically in baseball you would literally get down on a knee and you'd say you're doing tee-ball. And in tee-ball what happens invariably is a kid hits the ball to left field and every kid on the field runs to get the ball from every position, or at least a handful of them do. So you get down on the knee and you go, I love your hustle and great enthusiasm. Then you put the criticism in the middle and you're like, but you know, need to stay where your position is so that everybody has their own spot. And if the balls it to you, the ball, you know, field it. If the balls it to left field, they field it. But again, great energy and keep up that enthusiasm. So you put the constructive criticism in between two compliments. IMichael Jamin:Would think that they would remember the first thing and the last thing they heard.Stephen Engel:Well, that's great job. We did a joke like that. We did a joke like that where a character on an forum was giving a note to somebody. They were doing a musical performance or something, and the main character said to this other character, I really like your enthusiasm. Try to hit at least any of the notes if possible because your singing's not good at all. But again, great energy. And the character goes, thanks. Hey, thanks.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's what I would, so that's so interesting. And were you dealing with a lot of parents on adult momager orStephen Engel:Whatever? Yeah, there was a lot of that. It was fun, but creatively it was like, I'm done. This I just want to do, I'd rather not work and just write stuff I want to write than write on a kid show at this point. Because I also felt like they weren't really looking for you to do anything smart and that smart or that funny. It's changed. I think they're trying to be more creative and more inventive now, but at the time it just felt like, I don't really feel like doing this anymore. It's just not like someone would say, what are you working on? I'm like, it's not important. Don't worry about it. You're not going to watch it. It's fine.Michael Jamin:WellStephen Engel:Fine for what? But I don't watch it. You're not going to watch it.Michael Jamin:But when you say working on your own stuff now, so whatever, you'll just write stuff on spec and hope toStephen Engel:Sell. Yeah, I'll pitch stuff. I'll write stuff on spec. I've written a bunch of specs recently where I've tried every possible way to skin a cat in this business. I'm like, it's all I'm going to write spec scripts. That way they'll totally see what the show is. And then I would have a bible behind it to pitch all of these things. And I've had a couple of things where I had studios say, let's go out with this, but let's pitch it. You didn't write itMichael Jamin:Right yet.Stephen Engel:I'm like, well, why would you do that? Because I've got it right here. AndMichael Jamin:Because they want to put their thumbprints on, theyStephen Engel:Want to put their imprimatur on it. So the way I put it is, if you give, give someone a baked fully baked cake, they'll be like, this is a, it's a good cake, but I've got this recipe for a cake. Yeah, that's going to be the best cake that's ever been made and we're going to put in all these different ingredients and make it even better. And then that gets turned in and they're like, it's a cake. There's always that unknown potential of what a pitch is going to be. Whereas a spec, they'll go, well, there's this one thing I'm not sure about or this other thing and they want to get involved.Michael Jamin:But have you ever sold anything on spec? BecauseStephen Engel:When you, honestly, I don't think I have. IMichael Jamin:Know haven't written a few.Stephen Engel:I have a project, I have a project right now that it, we're going back and forth on negotiations, negotiating an option for them to, to option the script. And they're trying to decide whether we should go out with the script or go out or whether I should reverse engineer the pitch.Michael Jamin:ButStephen Engel:We have an option. They have an option for a year within a purchase with a purchase price to buy the script. What would happen is if we pitch it, they would basically go, okay, just wait three months and then turn in the script that you've already written because we left the script. But again, it's unclear as to what my feeling is. We should send out the script because the idea and it's in and of itself is not necessarily that unique. It's the execution of the idea. That's unique. Of course. And I think that's what got you interested. If I had just pitched you this idea, you probably would've said, well, I don't know. It seems like there's stuff out there like that. But it was my script that got you excited.Michael Jamin:Right, right. I remember early on, I wonder if you still feel this way. I remember I just shoot me, you telling me, yeah, because you were ready to leave, move on. And you're like, yeah, I want to go back to running a show. And then you did couple many shows. Yeah. But do you still feel that way? Do you care so much whether you're running it or,Stephen Engel:No, I've had good experiences and bad experiences doing both for a while after the big house, which was a good experience. My kids were at that point, maybe, how old were they? Eight and six. And I was running a show was very all consuming. And you, yeah, you never go home. I mean, yeah, even when you're home, you're like, you've got outlines to read, you've got cuts to watch, you've got the weight of the show on your shoulders at all times. You can't get away from it. And I was like, I really want to be more present. I want to be able to go to my kids' games. I want to be come home and be able to relax. So I'm like, I want to go on be someone else's, like consigliere, I'll be the number two. Yeah. I'll go, here's what I would do. Do it. Don't do it whatever you want. And then go home and be like, I'm done for the day. And I did that for a while. And I think in retrospect it sort of took me off of the showrunner showrunner's list for doing that for three or four years. I think people were necessarily remembering or thinking me necessarily when they were looking for showrunners because I was all of a sudden now someone's number two. But I don't regret it because I got to spend the time with my family.Michael Jamin:But now I now want to go back to running. I mean, it is a lot of work,Stephen Engel:My kid, well, right now, honestly, nobody, you know me, but anyone under the age of 40 doesn't, has never worked with me and doesn't know who I am. So for me to get a job on another show, because I, it's been a while since I've worked on a show where with people who would be young enough to go, oh, we need to work with this guy. He's really smart and good and funny. If I'm going to get a job, it's because I'm going to create a show myself and run it. And that's the job I'll have. I don't even know if my agent even submits me. I have no idea. So I'm back to just pitching and writing my own stuff and if it sells, of course I'll run it. So look, they both have their perils. I missed my kind of adolescence as a TV writer. I went from being right a second grader to a college student. I never had that. So I got to go and be on someone else's show. And sometimes it was good and sometimes it was bad. I worked in the Big Bang theory and it was not funMichael Jamin:From a lot of people. TheStephen Engel:Most fun place to work, it was delightful show. But I used to not going to work every day. Right. Cause I didn't take the tone of the show, the work environment, I mean the tone of the show, I was fine not dictating the tone of the show, but I was not enjoying the tone of the work environment.Michael Jamin:I got you. I know what you'reStephen Engel:Saying. So it was not a good experience. I dreaded going every day. It was a job. It, I might as well have been a lawyer again.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Yeah. You've had many experiences like that though. Were you like you pitting your stomach every morning?Stephen Engel:Not that many once on my own show, just because I had a difficult situation with one of the stars who it's not worth going into, butMichael Jamin:At least on the air.Stephen Engel:What'sMichael Jamin:That? At least? At least not on the air. NotStephen Engel:On the air. But most shows have been, some are better than others. I worked on a show that it was very dysfunctional and I've gone into work on shows where, where I had a deal where they were like, we need you to go help on this show. And it's kind of in shambles. I'm like, I'll go in and help, but I'm going in between the hours of 10 and seven. And if they start at five, I'll be there from five to seven.Michael Jamin:But okay, you can make that deal with the studio. But then the minute the showrunner finds out about that, during I made itStephen Engel:With the show, I made the deal with the showrunner.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Stephen Engel:Because they needed the help. And I was like, I'm not going down this sinkhole. I've already, I'm in a deal. I don't, I'm doing this. I'm helping out because I want to be a team player, but I'm going to help out within the hours that are reasonable hours. And it was so dysfunctional, people would show up and play guitars for four hours and play ping pong. And I'm like, are we going to work or not work? So I'm like, let me know when we're starting and I'll be there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know. I wonder, I don't know if that happens so much anymore. I think that's something that's been cleaned up a little bit.Stephen Engel:I don't know. I don't know mean, look, some shows, some showrunners are not, some creators become writers, become creators are not prepared to be a showrunner. They don't know how to manage a business. That'sMichael Jamin:Exactly right.Stephen Engel:And it's a different skillset being a talented writer and being a manager or a C E o or different skillsets. And some people are lucky enough to have both skills. Some people are good CEOs but not great writers and they need a better team. And some people are great writers and need someone to help them literally get through the day. AndMichael Jamin:People don't realize that because no one goes into comedy writing to become a manager of people. No.Stephen Engel:And if you have the talent, you eventually rise to a level where you're expected to all of a sudden be in charge of 150 people and to show up every day on time and to try to be responsible and actually conduct yourself in a way that's professional. And not everyone can do that.Michael Jamin:And always the trickiest thing. I think as a show runners, no one went to push knowing how far you can push back against a network note or even a difficult actor. Yeah. And what's your thought on that?Stephen Engel:Well, what I used to do is they never would give me a note. The trick to getting and addressing notes is to get them to realize that they're being heard. And you'll say, we're not going to figure this out right now together. I hear you. I know what, I know exactly what to do. And then go off and change it enough that they feel like you've taken their, at least into consideration their thought, their thoughts into consideration. But oftentimes what I would sometimes do is they'd give a note. I'm like, we can do that. But just so you know, here's the ripple effect. If we do that, then this scene here no longer makes sense because this scene that you really love won't make sense because we've already revealed this information. So this scene doesn't play and then this scene doesn't work because whatever this and this and this, we can do it. And I'm have to change those scenes and I'm willing to, but just realize that it's not as simple as making this one change here. There are ripple effects throughout the rest of the script. And they're like, you know what? You're right. Stuff's working great. Don't worry about it.So they don't know. They don't necessarily always see the big picture and understand how pulling one thread could unravel the entire sweater. So I just present it to them and go, would you like me to do that? We can do that. And then they go, no, no. Like I, I hear what you want and I'll massage it without having to do those things. But I hear what you're saying and I'll try to adjust it as best I can without unraveling the whole scriptMichael Jamin:And then working. What about working with difficult actors?Stephen Engel:That's harder. That's harder because you can'tMichael Jamin:Put the words in their mouth. You can't make mistake, you can'tStephen Engel:Make them do it. I mean, had an actor who literally was so he just wanted to take over the show and was, he never should have done it. They backed up a money truck to get him to do it and he didn't want to do it. And he did it reluctantly and didn't wanted it to be his show and not my show. So I think wanted tried to get rid of me and came to table reads with sunglasses on and just looked down the whole time. And which was the best thing that ever happened because the network saw that he was not doing his job. He was doing my job, but he wasn't doing his. But they'reMichael Jamin:Still going to take his side. TheStephen Engel:Show went down, but I didn't get, they were like, you handed yourself really professionally. And that person,Michael Jamin:Were you worried so much about that? Are you worried so much about protecting your reputa reputation like that within the industry? I mean,Stephen Engel:You always have to be a little bit worried. I, I would probably think that just given my, I don't know, I guess I have a, it's maybe it's coming from being a lawyer. I can see, if you tell me, like I mentioned, if we should change this joke or this line or this, do we need this? I can see all of the ramifications all at once. So sometimes I will, by pointing out the flaws in the note, some executives don't want to hear that. They don't want to know. They just want to think that they're right. Or they also want you to basically, I remember in one situation on a show where they were like, we've got great news. The network wants to do a mini room. I'm like, great.Michael Jamin:How's that? Great news? The news?Stephen Engel:I thought the deal was they're either going to pick up the show or not. That's why we went there. It'sMichael Jamin:Great news for us.Stephen Engel:They're like, well, why wouldn't you want to delve into the characters more? And I do, but that's not the deal we negotiated and now you're basically, I have to do all the same work for one 10th of the money. And they didn't want to hear that. So I think sometimes it's just best to be like, and I would also maybe sometimes have a tendency if somebody is lying blatantly to me and I say, wait, I don't understand last, yesterday you said X, Y, and Z, but now you're saying A, B, and C. So I'm confused. And they just want to go. They don't want to be called out on that.Michael Jamin:Right?Stephen Engel:So they're like, look, why are you being difficult? I'm like, I'm not, I'm just asking for clarification. Cause it seems like you're telling me two different things and I don't understand as opposed to just going, okay, I hear you. We'll do it without any. So I think sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and just eat shit and not speak up about it.Michael Jamin:The problem is you're saying, I feel like most of those fights are not winnable.Stephen Engel:They're not winnable. So there's no point in pointing it out. But sometimes I'm just, I don't, don't understand. Just tell me what, what's going on and then we can move forward. But they sometimes they don't even remember what's what they're spinning.Michael Jamin:I don't think I've ever convinced an studio or network executive that I was and they were wrong. I don't think I'veStephen Engel:Ever, it may have been a per victory, but I have.Michael Jamin:You were fired shortly afterwards.Stephen Engel:No, I mean it just may be whatever. Yeah, you're right if you're doing it this way. But in the long run, they just maybe weren't that happy with the direction, generalMichael Jamin:Direction. Right.Stephen Engel:I did the show where this kid show, and it was about a superhero hospital and there were villains and there were heroes and superheroes and super villains. And we wanted the villains and the heroes to have distinct personalities and flaws and be funny. They could be a villain and be funny at the same time. They're like, look, just have them villains. Just be scary and don't give them, they don't have to be funny. But we're writing a comedy and eventually we took a lot of the jokes out, but we didn't want to deliver a show that we didn't believe in. And then ultimately they were like, we did two seasons. And they were like, this is not really what we want to do. So they didn't do a third season. So you either go down with your ship and what you do, the show you want to do and have it not get picked up for another season or do a show for four seasons that you don't believe in.Michael Jamin:Though a lot of people on social media, they say, well, they don't understand. I think all the writers in Hollywood terrible, because if all the shows I'm like, you don't understand how shows are made. It's like, no, no. Sometimes the system is designed to make a show bad and there's really nothing you can do about it other than either,Stephen Engel:I mean, no one's looking to make a show bad. It's just what the creator thinks is good and what the network thinks is good may not be the same thing. There's that famous story about what those guys who did that Stephen Weber show called Cursed,Michael Jamin:I dunno if I know this story. Okay.Stephen Engel:Steven Webber did a show, there was a show starring Stephen Webber, it was called Cursed. It was for n b NBC back in the nineties. And the premise was, Stephen Webber is like this kind of womanizing dating machine who goes on this date and with a I, you shouldn't even say Gypsy, I guess, I dunno if it's derogatory, but a woman who puts a spell on it, he basically ghosts her or doesn't call her or is not nice to her on a date. And turns out she puts a curse on him that he's never going to find love and oh, his romantic life is going to be a disaster. Okay. So the cast, Steven Weber, he's super charming and funny. They decide to pick up the show and they go, we're picking up the show, but we have one elemental change if we'd like to pick. It's a small note. They're like, okay, what is it? He goes, we don't want him to be cursed. They're like all cursed. They're like, well, we can change it. We'll like so. Well, well, the Steven Weber show.Michael Jamin:Okay,Stephen Engel:So now what's the premise about Steven Weber dating?Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. But he is not having a hard time dating. He'sStephen Engel:Just, he either is but there's no curse.Michael Jamin:There's no curse.Stephen Engel:Yeah. Okay. Nig did a show called Inside Schwartz, and the whole idea of it was that you're inside the main character's head. Right. So the idea is that, you know, get to see his internal and hear his internal dialogue with characters he's talking to that only he can see. All right. And at one point about halfway through the series, the president of the network came to run, came to talk to me after a run through and said, look, we really like the main character. He's a great actor, but he's like, we want it to be more of a Michael J. Fox character dives into things without thinking. I'm like, well, the character is written is an overthinker and he's thinking about everything. And we dramatize those in the forms of him talking to these people who only he sees. He goes, well we, no, we don't. We want him to not be an overthinker. We want him to be just to jump into stuff. I'm like, so I'm writing inside Schwartz and you want outside Schwartz, right? And they went exactly perfect. I said, all right, I guess. But at that point it's like, how do you turn a aircraft carrier aroundThrough, and you've got four or five scripts that are ready to go that are all, hold on, I'mMichael Jamin:HollywoodStephen Engel:That are written inside Schwartz, and you want outside Schwartz. And they're like, well come up with new scripts, you know, can take an extra week, a hiatus and change. So we had to basically change course and make an adjustment. So just because they think, what if they changed their minds? They love something when they saw it and then they start to panic that they think it should be this, and they the next day have a completely different idea. But it, it's just, that's the idea they woke up with.Michael Jamin:Or often it's whatever was a hit over the weekend, that's what they want and make it more like that.Stephen Engel:Exactly. Exactly. So that has ramifications and real life ramifications that you've then got to make work. And it's your job, unfortunately sometimes is to try to turn a cat into a monkey. It's just like, all right, that's what I'm going to have to try to do.Michael Jamin:And are you able to do this with a good attitude?Stephen Engel:I to, I think I have probably, I have a better attitude about it now. I'm just more mature and it's like, all right, it is what it is. I understand it. Back then, I think I took everything much more personally and I was agonized more about it. Now I'm just like, I come, it's coming and you just have to deal with it or not deal with it or whatever. I, I've walked away from it. I've walked away from a deal on a show where I was like, I didn't feel right about it.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you didn't feel right about it?Stephen Engel:I just didn't, I don't know, I just wasn't comfortable ultimately with the people I was going to be working with. As I got to know them better, the deal wasn't the greatest deal and I was like, I don't think this is worth it. I think this is going to be a nightmare. And I just said, I turned wouldn't, they didn't come up. I just said, you know what, no mean, at the time I was running a different show, so this was development behind it, so I didn't need the job, but I was like, I see the writing on the wall here and if I can't, you can't meet my numbers and this is going to be unpleasant. And I can already tell. AndMichael Jamin:How do you think they took it when you did that? No one likes to hear thatStephen Engel:They were really not happy. I mean, yeah, really. I said, look, I'm just not comfortable with it. And I just, things had changed. It was an idea that it's not worth going into. It was easier to just say, forget, don't rather not do it than go into what I know is going to be a shit stormMichael Jamin:Right now. Not enough money. The industry has changed so much even in the past maybe 10 years or so. But I dunno, what are your thoughts on it? What are your thoughts on where it's going? Look,Stephen Engel:I'm one of those people who, whatever, everyone who's not in the industry says, oh, must be so great now, all these different streaming networks and some to sell shows. I'm like, it's not great. First of all, these places are, you know, do all the same work and you're doing six episodes or eight episodes or 10 episodes, and that's exactly when the curve starts to get, there's a very steep curve getting a show off the ground. And then it's like, now I get the show and now it's sort of the, it's heavy lifting at the beginning and then it sort of tapers off and it's always heavy lifting, but you start to figure it out. And then for the back nine it's like, it's not as hard if you stay on top of it and you get stories broken on time. So you're doing all of the heavy lifting without any of the economies of scale and you're only getting paid by the episode and you're working 40 weeks to do seven episodes or eight episodes instead of 40 weeks to do 22 episodes.Michael Jamin:Okay. So in, cause they make, that's not the case on many of the shows we're doing. Maybe they're lower budget, they just usually bring you on thete, the writing staff in pre-production. And so then you're the showStephen Engel:Runners. But as a showrunner, you've got to do, you're there for whatever the eight saying you're doing eight episodes, you're going to do eight weeks of pre-production and writing. You're going to do eight weeks or more of production, then you're going to do eight to 10 weeks of post. And yeah, you're working 35 weeks to do those eight episodes. Whereas if you're working on a network show for 22 episodes, you work 40 weeks and you do, you get 22 fees. So the writers who come in and do their six or 12 weeks get paid for their eight episodes and not, that said they work there eight weeks and they do their 12, their eight episodes. Do youMichael Jamin:Feel this affects the quality of writers that you're able to hire now because they have less training?Stephen Engel:I think so. They're not around production. They don't understand or understand production as well. It, it's tricky. I also think that to some extent, I may be alone in this. I think that some of the storytelling and streaming, it feels like a lot of shows feel like they, someone took a movie and they probably didn't sell this movie, and they said, I got an idea for a series and it would be a great movie. But what they end up doing is they, it's those chest spreaders if you were to have a heart bypass or something, it's like they put a chest spreader into the screenplay and they open it up and they jam six episodes of filler in the middle. And the beginning is the first half of a good movie. And the last two episodes, this is the second half of a pretty good movie, and the middle is just treading water. And you're just like, yeah, each episode becomes a chapter in a book. So a lot of writers are not learning how to tell an episode that has a beginning, middle, and end because it's all middle.Michael Jamin:Right?Stephen Engel:Episode one is a beginning, episode eight is the ending, and everything in the middle is middle. No. Those episodes don't have a beginning, middle, and end. They're picking up from the middle and ending somewhere else in the middle. They're moving the ball down the field. But you don't have a kickoff and you don't, I think a lot of writers maybe don't know how to tell a complete story anymore because there aren't any freestanding episodes.Michael Jamin:How do you think these new writers are breaking in today? It's very different than when we were breaking in. How are they getting in?Stephen Engel:I teach a course at UCLA and I always, they always ask the same question. How do you get an agent? How do you break in? I guess it's not that different other than the fact that there are maybe fewer barriers to entry. You want to write a web series and shoot it on your phone and send it out to a million people on. Now the trick is it's getting people to see it, but no one was going to read your screenplay. If you're a new writer and you say, Hey, will you read my script and you're in my class? They're like, Hey, can I send you a new script I just wrote? I'm like, no. Yeah, I'm not going to read that. But if they send me, Hey, I wrote a one minute episode, you want to, would you watch it? I'm like, okay. I mean, I could watch a one minute episode of something.Right? And if it's interesting, then you could go, that's really kind of interesting. Let's talk about it. So there are ways to get in. I hired a writer on an farm I was writing with a guy named Dan Sinner. Sinner, great guy, funny writer. And we were looking for an assistant. So we met this woman and she came in and she had no experience as an assistant, but she had just graduated from Harvard six months earlier. But she mentioned she had a Twitter feed and that she had written a couple of jokes that somehow Maude Aow had found. And she was like 12. And she tweeted it, retweeted it, and then because Judd Aow followed her and saw the jokes, he started following her and retweeted it. And then a lot of his followers were started following her. So all of a sudden I had 10,000 followers.So anyway, we finished interviewing her. I really liked her. And I'm like, what's the feed? What's the Twitter feed? She told me And I went and I read it and there were, I read the first 10 jokes. Eight of them were a plus jokes. And I said to Dan, I'm like, let's hire her as our assistant. If we need jokes, we, she's really good at joke writing and we're still looking for a last staff writer. And she was our assistant for a day. I'm like, do you have a spec? You've written? Like, I wrote a 30 Rock. So I read it and it was green, but first five pages, five great jokes. So finally Dan and I were like, let's hire her today because in three years we're going to be looking for her to hire us because she was that talented.Michael Jamin:Have had three years passed.Stephen Engel:She very quickly became very successful and has over a million Twitter, Twitter dollars.Michael Jamin:But is she working as a writer?Stephen Engel:She ended up working on Silicon Valley and Oh wow. Parks and Rec and she ended up working on The Simpsons. And soMichael Jamin:You were right. The good place.Stephen Engel:Yeah. I mean she was really talent. It was undeniable. So I always tell writers, write Jo, if you could write jokes, you'll work to, you're 90. To the extent shows like to have jokes anymore, which a lot of them don't. Right. I always think about that joke. I dunno if you remember this from the Emmys, maybe like four or five, six years ago, Michael Chay and Colin Jost hosted the Emmys. And I always tell this to my class, Colin, Joe says that the opening monologue, he says, tonight we give awards for the best comedies and dramas in television. And for those of you who don't know, a drama, a comedy is a drama that's 30 minutes long.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Stephen Engel:There's just so many shows now that are not really that funnyMichael Jamin:That I ain't going for it. What is this club, what's the class called that you're teaching at U ucla?Stephen Engel:It's in the professional program through the school of the Film School write writing a half hour pilot.Michael Jamin:So a graduate. So they have a grad, graduateStephen Engel:Program. It's not a M ffa and it's not undergrad. It's like a professional program where you can apply, it's a one year program. You take three quarters, 10 weeks each, and you go from basically Idea to finish script in 10 weeks.Michael Jamin:And it's at, you say, so it's not used to extension, it's something else.Stephen Engel:No, it's not Extension. It's a, it's through the School of Television, film and theater. Wow. That's theater, film and television, I guess it's called. Yeah. So eight to 10 people. And you're kind of, wow. I kind of act as the showrunner, but I want to hear, get everybody's input. Everyone gets input from each other about their ideas. So it's like a writing class group.Michael Jamin:They'd be lucky to get in your class. For sure.Stephen Engel:Yeah. I tend to give them a lot of, I think, very thorough notes and hopefully it's helpful. And I don't mince words. I mean, I'm gentle with it. I'll always, I'll do my notes and then I'll go back and soften them. I'll be like, instead of this, I don't think this is working. I would say, I wonder if some readers might think this is a bit confusing as opposed to, this is confusing. Or I remember confusing.Michael Jamin:I remember. And just shouldn't be turning to you. I can't remember. It was a script. Levi 10 was running the show, and I think we had a problem with the scene. And I seem to remember you helping us. You pulled you aside, Hey, how do you think this scene should work? Because we were lost and you were very helpful.Stephen Engel:Well, I had at that point already run Dreman for several years and and had some showing experience. And look, Ste, Steve was a great showrunner and one of his, he's smart enough and secure enough to know that I will benefit by having other experienced showrunners on working with me and other very experienced writers. Cause I may not have the answer all the time.Michael Jamin:Oh, I also remember thinking that I don't want to bother the boss. I'll bother someone who's not the boss.Stephen Engel:Yeah. But again, was you were your first job and you're want to make sure you don't do any. I've worked on shows where staff writers are told, don't even say a word.Michael Jamin:Oh, really?Stephen Engel:More or less. It's just you're there to generate jokes on your own and just keep quiet. Which is to me is if I can get a joke from a pa, I'll take it. I don't care where the joke comes from. If it helps make the script better. If a PA comes in and delivers a pizza and goes, what'd be funny? I'm like, that is funny. Right. I'll put that in.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. You whatever gets you home earlier. Yeah. Yeah.Stephen Engel:And makes the script better. And hopefully makes the script better. It's all going to make you look better as a showrunner.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was. And you're right, dude. I mean that show that it was really top heavy, just shoot me. It's top heavy. And it was, that's probably what was so intimidating to me was everyone was so funny. And I remember even turning to Marsh after several weeks. It was like, Marsha, I, I'm laughing too much. I'm not pitching enough. I'm enjoying myself too much. Right. What do I do? Because I'm not here to observe.Stephen Engel:I can see how it would be intimidating. I was lucky enough that on my first job it was Kauffman and Crane were the showrunners. Greenstone and Strass were like the producer, co-producer, exec producer, kind of supervising producer level. And then we had three staff writers who were all pretty new. So it felt democratic. But you come into a Topheavy show and you're, you were the only staff writers. Yeah. There.Michael Jamin:And there's Tom Martin. There's Tom Martin. Oh,Stephen Engel:Tom. Right

Steve Baldikoski is an Emmy nominated Showrunner known for Fuller House. He's also worked on Last Man Standing, Glenn Martin D.D.S., Wilfred, and Kristie. Join Michael Jamin and Steve Baldikoski for a conversation about how Steve broke in and what it takes to make it in HollywoodShow NotesSteve Baldikoski on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0049747/Steve Baldikoski on Twitter - https://twitter.com/finchbot2000Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptSteve Baldikoski:I mean, you're, you are sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today. This is my old buddy, Steve Bobowski. Steve has written on some of the, some of your favorite shows, as long as your show's favorite shows are ,Steve Baldikoski:As long as they're, as long as you have Terrible Taste and only watch shows that are gone after 13 episodes, andMichael Jamin:Then, then these are your favorite shows. But I'm gonna start, I'm gonna, in no particular order of, of, I think I'm going in order Teenager Working. Remember that show Dag with David Allen Greer Baby Bob. Oh, we're gonna talk about Baby Bob. Okay. Yeah. A U s A. Andy Richter controls the universe. People like that show a lot. I, I'm with her or I'm with her. I'm with her. I'm with her.Steve Baldikoski:I'm withMichael Jamin:Her. I'm with her . Eight. Eight Simple Rules. The New Adventures of Old Christine. That was a good show. The Jake Effect. Big Shots. True. Jackson, I forgot you worked that out. Wilfred. Which you could thank me for Glenn Martin d s, which you could thank me for Kirsty, which I can thank you for. Last Man Standing, whatever, .Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. They don't have anyone to thank for that.Michael Jamin:Thank for that.Steve Baldikoski:Save Me.Michael Jamin:Jennifer Falls, Ned and Stacy. And then of course, you were the executive producer and showrunner of Fuller House, the Full House remake. Steve, welcome to the big show,Steve Baldikoski:. Thank, thank you for having me. It's very exciting to be here.Michael Jamin:Wasn't it exciting, man? Oh man. Oh, and I have to say, so yeah, so we started out my partner and I hired Steve and his partner Brian, on, on Glenn Martin dds. And we were always very grateful. These guys turned in great drafts and we were always extremely grateful. Yeah, thank you. And then we would just shovel more work as, as for gratitude, we would just shovel more scripts in your face. Write this one now,Steve Baldikoski:, that was one of the highlights of my career. That was some of the best times I've ever had.Michael Jamin:We had some, you know, it's funny, I asked Andy Gordon in in a, in a previous episode, I said, and I'll ask you the same question. If you had, if you could go back in time and either remake any of the shows you did worked on, or like rebooted or just work on it again, what, what would they be? Any,Steve Baldikoski:I thought you were gonna tell me. Andy's answer . AndyMichael Jamin:Said if you want, Andy said, just shoot me. And true. JacksonSteve Baldikoski:Uhhuh . I, I, Glen Martin was a highlight, and and I think it was an underappreciated show,Michael Jamin:Certainly was. AndSteve Baldikoski:If, if it weren't in Claymation, maybe someone would've watched it.Michael Jamin:You know, we went on the internet, Seabert and I, my partner and I, we went on the internet and we found some guy talking about Glen Martin. And it was as if he was in the writer's room. It was as if he was, because he, he was right on the money . Like he knew what was good about it, what was bad about it. He had theories as to why ,Steve Baldikoski:I think you, you talking about Alex Berger, the creator,Michael Jamin:, it wasn't Alex. It was something like, it was something like Whacko on the internet, but boy, he was dead on. He was like, he knew exactly what he was talking about.Steve Baldikoski:. Well, one, one weird thing that that happened to me, this is slightly related. When, when Brian, my old writing partner and I took over for house in the last couple of seasons, it was right before the final season, and it was after Lori Locklin had her collegeIssues, legal issues with varsity Blues. On April Fool's Day, there was this article in some Likee News or something where someone did a whole, it was a fake interview with me, but it seemed like it was real. And the reasonings that they were talking about getting rid of Lori's character and what would happen after, you know, she was divorced from Uncle Jesse on Fuller House. W it was so well thought out that it, I thought it had to be written by also someone in the room, Uhhuh, because they actually knew like, specific arguments that specific writers had in getting rid of this person. And then it turns out, only if you clicked the very bottom did it say April Fools. And it was all phony interview with me,Michael Jamin:But still they got it. Right. But itSteve Baldikoski:Was, it, it was so eerie that it was, it was probably probably had better reasons to include her or not include her than we did. So there are a lot of fans out there who understand the shows just as well as the writers Do.Michael Jamin:I, I think so. I, I think even on, people talk about King of the Hill and they remember episodes. I'm like, I don't remember that one. And then they look it up and go, I, I worked on it. I don't tell me what happened. It's like, I don't remember it. You know, it's from, you know, very important to some of these people. And you know, they, they, they watch it all the time. And I haven't watched it in 20 years. ButSteve Baldikoski:But did you, there was a moment where when on Wilfrid where David Zuckerman, the creator didn't even know that he had a logic fallacy in the first episode. Do you know the story? No. I think he was at Comic-Con and he, he was, he, it it was about the pilot of Wilfred where Wilfred is trying to get through the fence and a regular dog would crawl through the fence, but instead Wilfred has an ax.Michael Jamin:Right. AndSteve Baldikoski:And then they said, well, shouldn't I take the ax from Wilf Fred because it's dangerous? And then David said, wisely said, no, you can't grab the ax cuz that means the ax is real. And the second he said that someone in the audience held their hand up and said, well, what about the Bong? Yeah,Michael Jamin:What about the Bong? Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And David had never considered that.Michael Jamin:Well,Steve Baldikoski:But Jar, that was fascinating that, that he, they had never thought of it on set, but out there. Got him instantlyMichael Jamin:Etro gave a headache to write and remember, like, what, who, and then, and then your part of Brian's likeSteve Baldikoski:That, that anecdote gave me a headache to mention.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was, I remember he just like, don't you think people just wanna see the dog danceSteve Baldikoski:?Michael Jamin:See the dog dance? That was his pitch. . Oh man. Oh my God, what a show. But did you ever,Steve Baldikoski:This whole section is even inside Wilf Fred.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is inside Wilfred.Steve Baldikoski:I don't think anyone would appreciate that. But did youMichael Jamin:Ever, even when you were running Fuller house, did you, did you ever turn to the, what do the fans want? Did you turn to the, because there's a lot of pressureSteve Baldikoski:On that actually, I have to say. That was a huge part of Fuller House and it was one of the things I think that the audience loved. And it was a unique situation for me because I had, still, to this day, I've seen two and a half episodes of the original full House.Michael Jamin:Uhhuh .Steve Baldikoski:So I didn't know anything about Full House, but other people did. And so if we would want to throw in, we call them Easter eggs, right? Throw in little Easter eggs and bring back, you know, some character that was in an, in a single episode 30 years ago, we would bring those actors back and the audience would go bananas. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But how, how can, you didn't watch any old episodes or, you know, there's so much,Steve Baldikoski:Why, why didn't I, orMichael Jamin:Yeah, why didn't you?Steve Baldikoski:Well part of it is I, I didn't want to actually be beholden to any of the other of the old stories.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:Because I mean, even, you know, like Fuller House is a little bit of an old fashioned show, but we didn't wanna make it just like completely stuck in the past and, and a show that is only about, that's referencing the original show. And that was more helpful to just have a perspective of like, what's it like raising, you know, three kids in, you know, modern day California.Michael Jamin:But did you feel a, a strong, I guess, obligation to make sure the fans were happy? Cuz I'm show the writers are writing for themselves.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh, for sure. We were doing that constantly and you know, we, we knew it. There were certain things that were like, you know, throwing red meat to the audience.Michael Jamin:Oh.Steve Baldikoski:You know, kind of like, like, like if you're doing the show Fuller House, no. You know, no matter what the story you're doing is, or whatever, if you have to, you bring in a dog wearing sunglasses and the audience goes bananas. And then how do you talk? And a, a baby runs in wearing the same sunglasses.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm.Steve Baldikoski: and then just the, the audience like tears of joy in the audienceMichael Jamin:Because that's, that, that was an old staple in the original show, stuff like that.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. I mean, that's just the kind of thing that they would stoop to, you know, . And so, no, but it was, but it was this, it was this, the Four House is a show that like, you know, it really, it really affected me as a writer cuz it was really that time when every week there were 200 fans in the audience. Super fans who knew every single episode of Full House and Fuller House. And so you would get this amazing instant recognition from the audience that you're writing for them.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:Especially when you would have those little Easter eggs and you don't get that on a lot of shows.Michael Jamin:Right. YouSteve Baldikoski:Know, like I, you know, may maybe on your Just Shoot Me you would have just shoot me fans, but every seat every week was a super fan.Michael Jamin:No. The weird thing about Just Shoot Me, you know, cause we was, we were there the first four years and the, the first season, probably the first two seasons that the audience, they weren't fans, they were hostages. There was people who came from Free Pizza, , you can tell they wouldn't wanna be there. . And they know the showSteve Baldikoski:Prisoners,Michael Jamin:Prison Prisoners,Steve Baldikoski:You're sailors in for Fleet Week.Michael Jamin:It's basically that. I mean, people listening, it's like you show up on Hollywood Boulevard and they hand out tickets, Hey, who wants to see a taping of the show? And then anyone would show up and they would stay warm, cause anybody to get outta the rain. ButSteve Baldikoski:These, no, these were people who came from not just around the country, but from literally around the world to see the show. Yeah. And they would th these people would center their vacation on coming to the show. And, and so, you know, I I mean I, it was also amazing to be able to, like, after the show, you know, if you knew who the people were you would bring them down and, and they would just get a kick out of walking around the set. Mm-Hmm. . And that was another kind of highlight every week was, you know, having these people, you know, have this awesome experience that they've grown up with these characters in this set. And then they're running around on the set, you know, now that they're grown up and they've got kids who, who like the shows.Michael Jamin:Now this set was a repeat that wasn't,Steve Baldikoski:That was kind of amazing cuz you would, it it wasn't just, it wasn't just fans, it was two generations of fans. Right. You know, it was like people who are sort of our age and then they're kids. Right. And, and so, you know, when network people talk about family co-viewing, it really was that it was, you know, parents who still love the show,Michael Jamin:But it wasn't the set was a remake. Right. It wasn't the actually,Steve Baldikoski:It, it was a remake. But I'll I'll tell you, and this is also part of the weird experience coming onto the show, cuz neither, you know, I had no appreciation really for a full house at the time. So before the first show, and this was the entire first season before it aired on Netflix there was a curtain covering the set. And before they would announce the actors, they would, they would lift the curtain like it, like it was like at the theater. Right. And the first time for the shooting the pilot, when they revealed that to the audience, people burst into tears.Michael Jamin:Wow.Steve Baldikoski:Just seeing the set and the couch looking just like it did in the eighties. And the way they really, really mimicked the original set, you know, to the Inch cuz they had the original plans. It was amazing to see people moved by a set.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I bet. ISteve Baldikoski:Bet. And yeah. And so, so that was pretty unusual. And then any line would get, even a mediocre line would get an aureus laugh from the audience cuz they were all, they've been waiting for 25 years to see this moment.Michael Jamin:Now, I imagine you had some of the writers in the show who grew up with watching the original Fall House, who knew more about the show than, than you did? Who?Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that's why also I felt I didn't need to see the show that much. I'm not recommending people shouldn't do homework .Michael Jamin:Now, one of the things that shocked me when we, when we were working with you, this is long, many years ago, and maybe it was only a season one or something. You shocked me when you said that you, at one point you were, you started as a network executive. I was like, you what? WhatSteve Baldikoski:Well, yeah, Stu, a studio, executiveMichael Jamin:Studio. SoSteve Baldikoski:Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was I was like a director of comedy development at Universal.Michael Jamin:And so tell tell us what, what that means. WhatSteve Baldikoski:Do, should I go back further? Could goMichael Jamin:Back to where you wanna startSteve Baldikoski:To that point. I mean, I never, I never set out to be a writer. I don't even know if you know any of my origin story about this stuff. Oh. I never really set out to be a writer. I always loved TV, but I also love music in, in movies. But didn't even know I was gonna get into the entertainment business until I was trying to blow a year or two before I would get a little bit of work experience and then back to go to law school. You were gonna law school get an mba and I was never gonna be a part of the entertainment industry, but I just lucked into what turned out to be a great job in the mail room at United Talent Agency, uta. And it was like this moment that U t A was on the rise and I, yeah, I was in the mail room where I'm literally working 80 hours a week delivering mail and reading scripts for free and writing coverage, doing that for five months. Then I got on a desk, I worked for Nancy Jones and Jay Surs.Michael Jamin:Oh boy.Steve Baldikoski:I was their first assistants at United Talent, I believe. And then and then I knew it wasn't for me cuz it was really cutthroat. Yes. I, I was learning what I didn't want to do. And working a traditional office that led to I got a job in development. I worked at Aaron Spelling Productions, and then that job got me wait, howMichael Jamin:Did you get a job in development? Cause it's, it is hard to make the transition from being an assistant at a desk to having a non-a job anywhere.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh. I, I was still an assistant for Oh, okay. Years. I was an assistant for spelling for one year. Mm-Hmm. , then I was an assistant. I worked for Jamie Tarsus at b c. Right. And that's, and that was kind of the, the, the pivotal moment in my career. Cuz kind of anyone who was Jamie Tarsus assistant moved on to become the next executive. Right. And so that kind of became my path. I was, I, I never set out to do this, but I just kept at getting a job that was just better than the last one. Mm-Hmm. . So I never had the reason to go back to law school. Right. And it was just like they kept on dragging me back in with a slightly better job. So this one year I spent as Jamie's assistant at N B C Frazier had been bought, but not shot.And then Jamie bought friends that year. I can't remember the names of the other shows, but but like, you know, being on set at the pilot of Friends was really that pivotal moment for me where I thought, oh, th this is, you know, really what I wanna do. Like, and I was on the path to be an executive, but I really would look over and the writers seemed to be having a lot more fun. And that's where I, I didn't really even know it, but that was, that was my path to be to being a writer was just kind of hanging out at N B C and, and seeing how things, you know, being a part of. But evenMichael Jamin:When you were an executive development exec, were you thinking, I want to be a writer? Or were you thinking No, no,Steve Baldikoski:Not really. I, I knew like, the executive path was like, was fine and I did that. And on the executive path, when you're no longer an assistant, you get bumped up and you get the office and it was very kind of, there were a lot of fancy trappings. I would wear a suit and I'd drive around all the networks trying to sell co half hour comedies to the networks. And it was it was a good job. But there was just something I still kept on looking at, you know, the writers who were on the floor and thought they were having more fun.Michael Jamin:But Do you, and you were giving notes to writers Yes. As executive. Do you at any point feel like, I don't really, how might, who might I be giving notes to a writer when theySteve Baldikoski:Oh, I, I, I felt that all the time. And because I felt that, cuz I kind of had so much respect for what the writers did. Yeah. That it was, it was hard for me to give as many notes. Cuz I thought the writer probably already had thought these things throughMichael Jamin:Uhhuh .Steve Baldikoski:But where were youMichael Jamin:Getting your notes from then?Steve Baldikoski:What's that?Michael Jamin:Where were you getting your notes from? Where were you getting your opinions from?Steve Baldikoski:Well, I, I have opinions just like, IMichael Jamin:Wouldn't have, I wouldn't have when I was starting it out, I go, I don't know. That's fine to me.Steve Baldikoski:I mean, you're, you're sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.Michael Jamin:And some, a lot of it is just opinion. But I I sometimes you'll get the same notes and which are fair, which is a, you know, start the story journal, whatever. That's a great note that you're always, this is totally valid note. But sometimes I, you know, I've been in meetings and you're like, you get a note, you're like, but that's just your opinion. This doesn't make it better or worse.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. And, and I mean, obviously, you know, that's something you, you will struggle with till the end of time. Yeah. But, but I also always go back to, you know, I, I think there's a, there's a cartoon about this at, at some point, but, but like, if Shakespeare handed an Hamlet, his agent would give him notes. Yeah. And he would say, Hamlet is inactive. Yeah. And then you would make him Mae swashbuckling hero.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Yes.Steve Baldikoski:And that would ruin Hamlet. So, so like, you know, and, and the problem is that like, the, that agent's note would be a well, well-guided note.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Hamlet, that isSteve Baldikoski:A mm-hmm. is a valid thing for him to say, but it also ruins the inherent art of the piece. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You know? Yeah. Had a kick. ButSteve Baldikoski:Then not that writing Glen Martin was the equivalent of ShakespeareMichael Jamin:In many ways. But it wasSteve Baldikoski:Pretty close.Michael Jamin:It was a little higherSteve Baldikoski:. But ,Michael Jamin:We had some fun on that show. But and then when, when you wanted to make the transition, I don't know how, how, how do you do, how did you do that?Steve Baldikoski:So, so, and once, like, and this is just my case, it was shockingly not that hard. My who became my writing partner was one of my best friends in college. And Brian had always wanted to be a sitcom writer. And just kind of had, kind of flamed out a couple of times. And then he was living in San Francisco and having a really excellent career as a, as an advertising copywriter. And I called him up and I told him I wanted to write sitcom with him. And he said no. And then he say he changed his mind.Michael Jamin:Why did he say no?Steve Baldikoski:Cuz I said, fine, I'm, if you don't write it with me, I'm gonna write it with Sue Ale .Michael Jamin:Oh,Steve Baldikoski:Funny. That's a true story. She wasn't,Michael Jamin:Sue wasn't an Sue Nagle who later went on to run H B O and then and Ana and you know, she, she's big, but she, at the time she was, she was, sheSteve Baldikoski:Was not yet an agent or she was a very young one. And we, butMichael Jamin:She didn't wanna write,Steve Baldikoski:Did she? So then we got together and to go to a coffee place to brainstorm. And we got into a, we didn't even make it to the coffee place before we got into a huge argumentMichael Jamin:Over what?Steve Baldikoski:Oh, I don't, I don't rememberMichael Jamin:. This partnership's not going well,Steve Baldikoski:. No, he was, he was not. But, but if you can't make it to the place where you're supposed to think , then it's probably a doom partnership. So anyway, Brian said yes. Mm-Hmm. . And then so over the phone we wrote a spec news radio back when people still did that. Yep. And News Radio had just been on the air. So we wanted to write a show that we loved and also that there weren't a ton of samples of other specs like that. Right. So we, this news radio early on and I gave it to Sue Nagle, she liked it. She gave it to Michael Whitehorn at Ned and Stacy. And we had one meeting Brian flew in from San Francisco. I showed up in my suit from being in an executive. I had to sneak out from Universal and not tell him where I was going. DidMichael Jamin:Michael White hard know you were an executive at the time? Yes, he did. HeSteve Baldikoski:Didn't think, but, but, but that was actually kind of a good thing because Brian was an ad executive. Mm-Hmm. and Ned of Ned and Stacy Right. Was an ad executive. And then also cuz I had, you know, funny corporate stories I think Michael liked that as well. And the fact he gets two people for a staff writer's salary.Michael Jamin:Were you afraid to leave your cushy job?Steve Baldikoski:Less so than Brian. I, if, if I flamed out, I could always go back to being an executive and, you know, that would be fine. Right. And, and in hindsight, that probably would've been the best thing that happened, everyone.Michael Jamin:But Yeah. I mean, itSteve Baldikoski:Wouldn't be here talking to you. I, I, I'd be living in Bermuda by now, .Michael Jamin:Oh, well, you know, learn.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. So, but unfortunately I made it through that year and then made it through the next like 25 years. And so, so that was my, that was my path. And, and it kind of happened really fast that I, so then Michael hired us after that meeting, and then I had to go tell my boss at Universal that not only was I looking for a job, but I had one and it was as a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And then, and so their business affairs made this big stink that they owned my half of my spec script.Michael Jamin:And what, what are they planning on doing with it?Steve Baldikoski:I, well, that, well, I, I asked them that and I think they were all gonna take my spot in the writer's room.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What you're, they have they own ha you're half of a worthless SPAC script that just got you a job. I don't know,Steve Baldikoski:Value it. It was a weird thing. But they,Michael Jamin:But businessSteve Baldikoski:Affairs won't hesitate toMichael Jamin:Sink a deal whenever possible. . Yes. We remove the joy out of a writer . We have a three hour phone call toSteve Baldikoski:Figure this out. And they, yes, they effectively did steal my joy of that moment,Michael Jamin:. Oh my God. And then, yeah. Then the rest was just one show after another, basically. AndSteve Baldikoski:Then, yeah. And yeah, it started out we got in, at the time there used to be the WB in, in U p n, the Paramount Network. I think like in that, in that time period, this is like 97, 98, there was like the peak of the sitcom. I think there were over 60 half hour sitcoms on the air. And then Brian and I rode that rollercoaster.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.So tell me about developing your last project.Steve Baldikoski:Okay, so the, the last project that I just developed I sold it to a ABC with 20th. Mm-Hmm. came to me because it was so personal to what I'm going through as a dad. Mm-Hmm. , my youngest kid is non-binary.Michael Jamin:Okay.Steve Baldikoski:And she she was born a girl, Vivian. And then around time, she was about the second grade, she came to us and said that she, she felt that she was a boy. Right. And so that led us down on this journey. You know, finding out, you know, like having a trans kid and non-binary kid and never knowing anything about it. Right. and that kind of led me to want to write about it after I broke up with my writing partner right at the start of Covid. And I was gonna have to write my first thing. So I was gonna write at first I was actually gonna develop step by step BA based on the same concept. I was unable to sell that to H B O Max mm-hmm. . so instead I redeveloped the idea of me being this like hapless dad sort of middle class working class guy in rural Wisconsin, which is where my mom's family is from.And then having this tomboy kid that he just loves more than anything. Hi. Her, his Maisie all of a sudden informs him that no her name is, she's now Hunter. And you're thinking this as a single camera comedy or what? This was a single camera comedy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was structured like a multicam, but, but really that was from, anyway, that was my speck. And what that led me to, to, to, to do is it got me the attention of other people who were in the non-binary trans world. So then ultimately I partnered just through meeting lots of people this woman named Billy Lee, who some people know because Billy Lee was on early seasons of Vander Pump Rules. Okay. and so it was kind of a, like a well-known person in, in the trans community.And then, so Billy Lee and her friend Priscilla had this idea about her own life, which is kind of almost too hard to believe is true. Billy Lee grew up in rural Indiana as a boy. Left home in 18, found out that he wasn't gay, he was actually a, she Right. And went through the surgeries and then, you know, a a lot of turmoil, but then returns back home and fell in love with her best male friend from junior high. And now they're together as an on and off couple. And so it was, how, how do I take that and turn that into a half hour comedy? I know it's a long wind up, but it's a great story that is almost hard to believe. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin:Was her best friend growing up.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. And so we pitched it really as a Netflix H b o Showtime show that would, would show that magic relationship and also have sex and, you know, things that I think would be hard, you know, relatively hard for a, you know, a regular network audience.Michael Jamin:And it's sold,Steve Baldikoski:But it sold to a b ABC because they wanted, there's this great, her relationship with her father is also really what it's about. Right. And it's, it, it is a fa is also a family show about how it took a trans woman to fix this broken Midwestern family.Michael Jamin:Right. AndSteve Baldikoski:Right in ABC's wheelhouse, youMichael Jamin:Know, where where is that now? At likeSteve Baldikoski:A, like a Connor's but with a strong trans element.Michael Jamin:And where is that right now?Steve Baldikoski:It's dead. Oh,Michael Jamin:Steve Baldikoski:Michael Jamin:With every other pilot.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. yeah. I, I, you know, I can't, I I can't entirely blame them. Like, it, it would be very amazing to see a, b, c put on a show about a trans woman and not have it be one of the peripheral characters.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I, I, I think that's just a hard sell. Maybe if I was, you know, a more powerful writer, could, could you, you know, jam that down their throat? But I, I don't think, I think the subject matter was exactly their wheelhouse, but also maybe too, too on the bleeding edge for them.Michael Jamin:It, it feels a little like, you know, some somebody somewhere at that H B O show. I love that show. No. Oh yeah. It's a little sim it's it, and there's not trans, but it's, it's similar that, I don't know, that just remind me of It's great. It's a great show. Our friend Rob Cohen directs a bunch of those. Oh yeah.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, I'll have to check that out.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Great show. But, so then, okay, so then what, what else? Like, you, I mean, it's been a while since, you know, since Fuller House, but what was that like? I always ask this, what's it like working with the cuz a lot has changed since you and I broke in. Yes. What is it working on with like the, the new generation of writers?Steve Baldikoski:Well luckily at Four House I was still the new generation of writers . What wasn't thatMichael Jamin:Mean, wasn't that long ago.Steve Baldikoski:I, I still felt young on the show Uhhuh. Cause Cause we had people No, we, we had people who were older and Oh right. And you know, were around the early, theMichael Jamin:Original show.Steve Baldikoski:And so, so it was kind of great to feel like I was on the young side for once. Yeah. but I, I understand what you're, I understand what you're, what you're getting to are like in terms of how the room has changed from started to now, evenMichael Jamin:In terms of preparation because, you know, you can answer any way you want. But it, like, basically there was more when we were coming up, you were on a show for longer. There were more senior writers and you were constantly learning and you were never, I never, you were never like thrown into the hot wa hot water yet. But now I feel like these kids come in and there's no really training ground. There's no, there's even, you know, I think there's an article a couple days ago, there's no mentorship anymore becauseSteve Baldikoski:No, no, no, no, no. There, there isn't. And you know, that's too sad. I think that, I think content in general is as good as it's ever been. Mm-Hmm. . And yet that training system doesn't seem to exist. And I wish it did. When, when we first got in around the Ned and Stacy era, like there still was that you would still feel that like a showrunner would take someone mm-hmm. Under his wing, like Michael Whitehorn did with David Lit. Yep. And Shepherd that person cuz they would have multiple years of Ned and Stacy. And then luckily that turned into King of Queens. Mm-Hmm. and, and you know, soMichael Jamin:There were schools.Steve Baldikoski:Mike were together for a long time. That's the old model. I don't see that anymore. I wish it was there. Because to to be honest with you, like when Brian and I made the jump from co-executive producers of Fuller House to executive producers, it, it was like, we are being thrown to the wolves after 25 years. Yes. Because because of jumping from show to show, to show like younger writers do now all the time. I, I didn't learn those skills mm-hmm. . And so we didn't really know that much about editing, you know, sweetening like it, how's our camera coverage. Right. you know, all all of those little things that, you know, I had to, I had to learn them very, very quickly. And so luckily I had a, a great, you know, you know, crew that all wanted to help us as, you know, learn as well. But yeah, there is no system. I wish there wasMichael Jamin:Like, I even think like multi-camera, like you, back in the day, you'd come out of a school like we basically . We, we kind of came out of the Frazier school cause Levitan came outta Frazier, which came outta the cheer school. And it was like that kind of pedigree that you had and you're just learning from all those people. And then now, like, there's so few multi cams. Like if they were to bring back multi cams, well who's gonna do it? Who knows how to do it? Because it's different than doing a single camera.Steve Baldikoski:It's funny, it's funny you say that because that's why I'm calling onto the business. Yeah. that I'm hoping, I'm hoping that that we can stick around long enough that it will come back at some point. UhhuhMichael Jamin:. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I, I love the format. Like, I mean that's, that's one of the things that like really me about Fuller House is you know, I was able to be there for like five years mm-hmm. . and I never really had to worry about, you know, job security and it, it was this amazing place and we, and there were fans of the show and, and it was just great to write for them. And so that spoiled me, you know, now that that kind of is, you know, has gone away now that Fuller house is no longer on the air. Friday night was my drug, you know, cuz you know, Friday night I love putting on a show every week and I miss that.Michael Jamin:Here's my pitch Fullest house. Pay me. That's,Steve Baldikoski:That's, that's a great idea. That's a great, I wonder, I wonder if anyone pitched that to me, before the day I started.Michael Jamin:I wonder if anybody pitched that to me. Your shitty joke. .Steve Baldikoski:So was it one of my low IQ children?Michael Jamin:. Well then, so then what do you do? So what do you do now? I mean you're obviously you're developing and, andSteve Baldikoski:So, so now I I'm, I'm working on a, a, a new multi-camera idea. I'm very excited aboutMichael Jamin:And Gone Steve Baldikoski:Haven'tMichael Jamin:Taken it out yet.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. no, I'm just, I I I, I think I finally ha I have the pilot story. I'm just trying to populate it with all the other, all the other things.Michael Jamin:Okay. And then, and thenSteve Baldikoski:With all the other characters cuz I basically started with the central character, Uhhuh . It is kind of high concept, but I don't wanna give it away. I I'll talk to you off camera about it. Okay. with the central character and then that led to a bigger world. Then populate that world kind of how to, how I want to, how I wanna fit tonally into that world. Like it's, it's, it's an idea that would, to me, it feels a little in the vein of what we do in the shadows.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:In terms of like a high concept comedy idea. And because I never worked for him, but like, my hero as a sitcom writer is Paul Sims.Michael Jamin:Okay.Steve Baldikoski:And it, you know, my first spec was Ned and Stacy. I mean, I, I was news Radio. Radio. Yeah. And which was run by Paul Sims, created by Paul Sims. And now he runs mm-hmm. . you know, what we do in the Shadows, which I just think is a brilliant, brilliant show.Michael Jamin:So then what do you have, what advice do you have for people? Do you have any advice for people trying to get into the business now? Well,Steve Baldikoski: that's why I'm here. I thought I was seeking advice from you. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You thought you were a, a job.Steve Baldikoski:I thought people were gonna, I thought people were gonna call in and tell me what to do with my life.Michael Jamin:Yeah, exactly.Steve Baldikoski:I, I mean the, the number one thing is like, if you want to be a writer, I think you probably have to move to LA maybe New York. But if you want to be in TV comedy, I think you have to be in LA Yeah. That's the first thing you have to do is move here and then write all, you can write things that make you laugh. Right. That abuse you, because no one else will probably enjoy it. So you might as well, you might as well . And, and also, and also I think you, you, you have to get creative, you know I think social media is a great way to get noticed.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. ,Steve Baldikoski:My wife happens to be an executive on the TV side, and she bought the Twitter feed shit, my dad says when she wasMichael Jamin:Wild. And that was gotta be 10 years ago now.Steve Baldikoski:And Yes. And I, and I think that was like the first thing that a network executive or that a network has like, bought something on, like no one was buying a Twitter feed at the time. Right. And, and I thought that was pretty clever that Wendy started looking at things like that. And I, I think that's a great place to get noticed. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I agree.Steve Baldikoski:Especially for young comedy writers. Does sheMichael Jamin:Still do that? Does she still actively, does she look on social media for other people like that?Steve Baldikoski:She does that. She also she flips through, they get they get proposals of books that are coming out. Not even books that have been written, but just titles of book proposals sometimes.Michael Jamin:Really. AndSteve Baldikoski:She has scanned through that and bought a series based on one of the blurbs that she read aboutMichael Jamin:That I'veSteve Baldikoski:Never heard that. That was, that that was actually the show Atory.Michael Jamin:I Okay. Cuz that's a good title. ISteve Baldikoski:Never heard thatMichael Jamin:Before. So I would, I would, I've always, cause my advice to given people is, well, it's gotta be a bestselling book, but you're sayingSteve Baldikoski:Oh, oh, oh. I'm not, oh, I'm not suggesting that's a way to get noticed,Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:To, to write a book. Although it's not a bad idea. If you have a great life story, write a book or put it on TikTok.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:I think, I think just if you have a comic voice, there are a million ways to get it out there. Yeah. and my dear friend, a guy named David Arnold was a writer on Filler House and just started showing, you know, doing TikTok videos of, of him and his wife and kids. And then he, like, I think Ellen DeGeneres was the first to share one of his videos, and then that blew up for him. And then he ended up, he was getting sponsored and he was a, he was a standup comic and it was helping out with his standup business. Yeah. And so at the age of, you know, 53, he was discovered on new media, you know, andMichael Jamin:And what would hasSteve Baldikoski:Become little tiny sketches about his family.Michael Jamin:Oh, I, let's talk about Kirsty, which was you, you were, to me, that was a lot of fun. So that was a Kirsty Alley show. Yeah. And you guys brought us in. They needed a a freelance. I don't know why they, but they wanted to have somebody freelance even though you got a, a great writing staff. Oh,Steve Baldikoski:.Michael Jamin:And I like, we're like, we'll do it. And thenSteve Baldikoski:I think, I think our, I think I think your agent said that your teeth were falling out and if you didn't write a script for the medical Oh,Michael Jamin:Not at all. Honestly,Steve Baldikoski:That show,Michael Jamin:Because that was a bunch of heavy hitters on that show. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. We were only sat, we only sat in for a couple days. We walked you guys, we walked in and then you guys said, okay, here's the story. We, we broke it, kind of go write it. We're like, okay. And but it was a, itSteve Baldikoski:Was to start Ted Damson. Sson.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And, and then, and Marco punted it for se the next season thinking it was gonna be a season two Marco, there's no season two . You don't punt that. You shoot it today before, before they pull the plug. Steve Baldikoski:The old, we will use this we'll use scripts season two. Yeah.Michael Jamin:The old season twoSteve Baldikoski:Trick. I don't know if that was him being tricked or you being tricked.Michael Jamin:Honestly, we had a great time. It wasSteve Baldikoski:A great script. It was a greatMichael Jamin:Script. It was fun. It was just fun sitting in with a bunch of people. Yeah, well, a bunch of writers that I respected. SoSteve Baldikoski:No, that was an amazing, that was an amazing experience. I, I, we like Claris Leachman did the show. Mm-Hmm. like some really, you know we, we wrote an episode for John Travolta. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And was it Michael Richards and Ria Pearlman. And it was like, these are good, these are heavy hitters, these are great actors. So, andSteve Baldikoski:The, the night that Claris Leachman did the show, we went out for drinks afterwards, Uhhuh with her. And I ended up sitting next to Kirsty Allie's assistant. And it wasn't until about 10 minutes into my conversation when she mentioned reincarnation, that I realized that I was talking to a high level Scientologist. And then I, and then I noticed she was doing all these Scientology tricks with me, like deep deeply staring into my eyes and not blinking until I blink. It was, it was, it was very bizarre.Michael Jamin:Wow. I I think we can,Steve Baldikoski:That's, that, that's, that's a good enough reason to become a sitcom writer is Yeah. To have someone do Scientology mind tricks on you. ThoseMichael Jamin:Are, that those are all these, those are always good stories when you Yeah. Can you go hang out on the past? Hang out. Yeah. And then what aboutSteve Baldikoski:When, when Clarus Leachman is far from the craziest person at the table? .Michael Jamin:She was, she was pretty wild. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:Michael Jamin:Did I ever work? I'm trying to remember if I ever worked with her on something. I think I did, but I can't remember what it was.Steve Baldikoski:Gotta be. Just, just shoot me.Michael Jamin:It might have been. I don't remember. I, I, you know, but Okay. Well let's get to baby, let's get to the, what everyone wants to talk about Baby Bob.Steve Baldikoski:Oh,Michael Jamin:, let's go. YouSteve Baldikoski:Saved the best for last.Michael Jamin:I saved the best for last. Let's talk about baby. Well,Steve Baldikoski:I, I believe that Baby Bob was the highest rated show that I've ever been on,Michael Jamin:But they canceled it so fast.Steve Baldikoski:They canceled it. Yes. I think that was a, that was a disconnect where the high, high ups meaning like Les Moon vest when he was running CBSs, I think he wanted Baby Bob to be on the air. Oh. And so that he developed it like two or three times with multiple casts.Michael Jamin:Right. We gotta have a talking baby.Steve Baldikoski:And it was, and, but the, but the Talking baby always stayed the same based on these commercials. Was it Geico? Yes. I think his Geico commercials with the baby Ba with Baby Bob interviewing Shaq Yeah. Is, it's the concept that got everyone all hot and bothered. And so, so Les Moonves bought the show. This is my version of the story, I'm sure it's only partially accurate. But he didn't really include the lower level executives who absolutely hated the show. And so, as Brian and I got hired on the show, we thought, Hey, it's a c b s show. They must like the show. But the reaction from the executives after every table read was basically, how dare you,Michael Jamin:How dare how dare you have the baby talk? How dare you. WhatSteve Baldikoski:Like, just everything about the show seemed to offend the, the c bs executives incivility who were in charge of the show.Michael Jamin:Were, were there anything advertised guys in it? Were they involved at all?Steve Baldikoski:No, not, I don't think so. Kenny Kenny Campbell is the voice and mouth of the baby. Uhhuh . And then actually I didn't know much about babies when I was on the show, but then now when I look back, I realize how creepy it is that a baby has a full set of adult teeth. Yeah. Yeah. That are prominent. If I saw a baby like that in real life, I would run.Michael Jamin:Do you think that was the problem with the show? Steve Baldikoski:, this is the baby's teeth? Well, well the Mike Saltzman, my dear friend who Yeah. Saltman created the show, described it as Frazier, and they happened to have a talking baby.Michael Jamin:The other, so the other Oh, Freeman was Frazier had, okay. Frazier. All right.Steve Baldikoski:And they just happened to have a talking baby. IMichael Jamin:SaltmanSteve Baldikoski:That was, that was Mike'sMichael Jamin:And what, what were the writers do? Did, yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I don't have a lot of memories. . Okay.Michael Jamin:SoSteve Baldikoski:There were a lot of late nights and one night, I think it was about midnight, that I got into a shouting match with one of the other writers about whether or not Baby Bob was a genius.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:And the other writer was taking the stance of he's not a genius, he's only talking at six months. Mozart was writing symphonies at, at five or seven, and I was shouting and I was yelling about the other side that Mozart was not talking at sick at six months.Michael Jamin:And was everyone looking at you both outta your mind? ?Steve Baldikoski:Yes. Like, it's midnight. Can I go home?Michael Jamin:Can I go home? How get the baby to dance? That's all.Steve Baldikoski:But, but, but, but, but I mean, part of the lesson there is even a show that you think is so, so simple or terrible that you could write it in it, in its in your sleep. Uhhuh . It's not that way. No. No. Because even a show like that is very hard to write. Yes.Michael Jamin:Yes. BecauseSteve Baldikoski:You have so many layers of people to Please,Michael Jamin:Yes. People ask me is they say is a, is a, is a great show. Hard to write than a bad show. No, they're all, they're all kind of hard to write for different reasons. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And that, that was, I mean, definitely a lesson. And then another lesson was despite what we felt like, I like it, it is sort of embarrassing to be on a show like Baby Bob when you're on the Paramount lot and then the Frazier Golf Cart drives by and you're in the same business, but you're not in the same business. But when it came to the ratings, baby Bob did huge in the ratings. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like one of the top, I think it's one of the top new comedies that year.Michael Jamin:And that's so interesting. And, and that's, that's the thing people don't realize as well, is that you, you may be a great writer, but if you're in this lane, it's hard to get out of that lane cuz that's how people see you. Yes. And if you're in a great, even if you're even a bad writer on a great show, now you're in that lane. You're in a great ri you're, you know, you, you're inflated. So Yeah. Yeah. yeah. People don't quite realize that.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And you take, you gotta take the job, you gotta get you, but you take the job you get, you know, so Yeah. And,Steve Baldikoski:And, and you really, and you really don't know if it's gonna pan out.Michael Jamin:No.Steve Baldikoski:Like I remember talking to Al Jane and Mike Reese mm-hmm. when we worked with them and asking them when they got started, they started on the, started on The Simpsons I think coming off of Gary Shaline show and when they were pitched coming on to do this cartoon on Fox.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:They thought, I think that they thought it was, it was not good for their career.Michael Jamin:It would kill their career. Yeah. And, and now it would make no difference, honestly. Now you what? You take a job, you know, whatever job you can get, you take a job, you know? Yeah. But back then you could make decisions. You could make choices.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. Yeah. I, yeah. And, and interestingly, like back when Brian and I were making lists of shows, we would wanna be on Uhhuh, Simpsons was like a C-level list at the time.Michael Jamin:Uhhuh Really? CauseSteve Baldikoski:We liked it, but we thought it was imminently. We, we didn't, no one still knew it was gonna be on the airMichael Jamin:40 years later.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. And you know, cuz cuz being on The Simpsons, I think it was like uncool. Then it became cool, then it was uncool.Michael Jamin:Well, in a way it's a little bit of, it's almost golden handcuffs if you're on the Cho. That that's if you're on the Simpsons now, you you're not gonna leave. Yeah. Cause it's job security and get ready to, for writing Bart jokes for the rest of your career, you know. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:But the crazy thing is that there are writers who are still there, who were there when I was in the mail room at United Town. Sure.Michael Jamin:Yeah. SoSteve Baldikoski:Th there are peopleMichael Jamin:Who, they've made a career at it who,Steve Baldikoski:Yes. So I was in the, I was on the business side of the business. I became an executive and then I was a writer for 25 years. Yeah. And they're still doing the job from the day I got into the business.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. It's just so, yeah. It's, and I would think creatively it's hard, but you know, you, but the money will make, will make you feel better. You know,Steve Baldikoski:Money makes a lot of things feel better.Michael Jamin:You crying for your 50? Is there a 50 bill? . I wouldn't know what a 50 bill looks like. Fascinating. Dude, thank you so much. We have a good chat. We had a good time.Steve Baldikoski:Steve. Thanks for having me.Michael Jamin:Thank you so much. This is, I, I don't know, I'm always fascinating in, in learning people's journeys and how they got there and so thank you so much for, for being on my little show.Steve Baldikoski:Thank you. And hopefully you have stuff that you don't have to cut.Michael Jamin:Oh, , sorry folks. If you heard the version that, the edited version, we had a trash, a lot of stuff. ,Steve Baldikoski:.Michael Jamin:All right everyone, thank you so much. Remember, we offer, we got a lot of great stuff for you on my website. You can get on my newsletter, you get my free all that stuff. Go to michaeljamin.com and find out what we got there. And I got another webinar coming up. All right everyone, thanks so much. Until next, next week, keep writing.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode where screenwriters need to hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Andy Gordon has had a Rich career in Hollywood. His credits include Modern Family, The Big Bang Theory, Last Man Standing, Just Shoot Me, & News Radio.Show NotesAndy Gordon on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0329985/Andy Gordon on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_GordonAndy Gordon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andyonset/Andy Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-gordon-830028b5The History of WGA Writers' Strikes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writers_Guild_of_America_strikeWGA.org Strike Authorization Approved at 97.85% - https://www.wgacontract2023.org/updates/strike-authorization-vote-resultsMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsComing Soon

Geoffrey chats with Screenwriter Michael Jamin (King of The Hill, Just Shoot Me, Lopez) about the WGA Strike, Netflix Streaming Residuals and the imminent threat of AI to the future of screenwriters.You can find Michael at https://michaeljamin.com/For the full in-depth and uncut interview about working as an undercover special agent in the FBI join our community and get access to our full character database.--> https://www.thesuccessfulscreenwriter.comThis show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4506618/advertisement

Missy Ozeas is a camera operator and energy healer who helps creatives work through their blocks and find their inner peace. If you're a creative struggling to sit down and do the work required to be a pro, you won't want to miss this podcast.Show NotesMissy's Website: https://www.missyenergyhealing.com/Missy's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/missyenergyhealing/Missy's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZpw2lIbdJzRlnhcsdWSK4wMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMissy Ozeas:I had never seen an a fiat ever in my entire life. And I was going to buy an electric car. And so I'd never seen a fiat. Then I went to go drive this fiat and it was like orange, right? And, and the next day I drove to work, I saw five orange fiats. Right?Michael Jamin:But that'sMissy Ozeas:Because it, my reticulate, ac reticular activating system said, oh, orange fiats are important. So my mind saw them where they didn't see them before. It's not that there were more, it's just that I saw them. Same them,Michael Jamin:Right? That's a really good example.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So same with any of us. What do we wanna focus on? That's our choice that we can control.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. We got a special podcast today. They're all these special, but this is my friend Missy. And Missy. I'm gonna make you famous today.Missy Ozeas:Alright?Michael Jamin:That easy you do. All you do is come on the podcast. I'm make you famous. Hello and Missy, let me just tell you what I tell everyone what she's done. So she, I met her years ago. She's a camera operator. Well focus puller technically on just Shoot Me. But she was also working at the same time. Cause that was only like a two day week job. Same time working on friends where my wife was working as an actor. So you knew both of us separately at the same time, I believe, right? Missy?Missy Ozeas:Well, actually I did not work on friends or just shoot me .Michael Jamin:What are you talking about? Oh, different show we worked on. I thought it was on Just Shoot Me. We met. I,Missy Ozeas:No, I mean I was working during that time. I forget what I was on then, but I think I met you. I don't know how I met you. Michael Jamin:Go together. I thought it was just shoot me. Was it? Oh,Missy Ozeas:You know what I think it was was. Oh, Jenny Garth.Michael Jamin:You think it was what?Missy Ozeas:Jenny Garth?Michael Jamin:No, I wasn't working on. Oh wait. But that wasMissy Ozeas:Way later. Yeah. But that,Michael Jamin:But we were working on something before that together.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Boy, this is called No Memory, but I think I met Cynthia first from preschool.Michael Jamin:No, no, no. You worked with her. No. Yes. What kind of introduction were you doing today? .Missy Ozeas:Oh my God.Michael Jamin:I dunno how we know each other.Missy Ozeas:We know each other a long time. Let's put it that way.Michael Jamin:And a lot of TV shows. Well, all right, let's just talk about your beginning. I know you went to USC film school, right? Yes. And then you, what, what was your intention when you went there?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, so I actually, I wanted to be you Michael. I wanted to be a writer. When I first, well, first I wanted to be a director, and then I wanted be a writer director. Then I just wanted to be a writer. And then I said, forget it. I, you know why? Because it's too solitary for me because I, I love for me Michael Jamin:Because TV writing is not solitary. But you didn't know anything at theMissy Ozeas:Time. I didn't know. Right. I only knew about feature writing. That's true. Right? I didn't know about a writer's room, cuz that looks fun. But yeah, so feature writing, that's what I wanted to do. And then I realized I couldn't, it wasn't my personality to sit at my computer and write by myself.Michael Jamin:You wrote a, I'm sure you wrote a lot of scripts in college, I mean, in film school, right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. And one of my scripts was made into a senior project. So I think five get picked and then, yeah. One of my scripts got picked. So that was fun.Michael Jamin:And then you, I mean, in film school, like I always describe film school as basically a trade school. You learn all the trades, right? Yes. And so you learned, obviously all this about camera. You learned everything about cameras. But then, okay, so at what point did you decide I want to go into, you know, be behind the camera that way?Missy Ozeas:Well, okay, this funny thing is, I don't consider myself even to this day having been in camera forever. I'm not very technical, Kate. So don't tell anybody that , because I used to be in charge of like fixing the, like, camera goes down. I had to fix it. Right? I am not that. Okay. So in college I realized that was my thing I was most scared about. So I have a tendency to jump into the thing that I'm scared about, which actually it can help. So I was most scared about tech. So I decided to work in the camera stockroom where I would have to learn everything about a camera and lights and everything because I was afraid of it. So I did that. And then I got my hands into that. And then one day somebody had me work on their skin film and they said, Hey Missy, when that guy walks from here to here, move this camera lens from here to here. And I'm like, okay. So I did that. And weirdly, from that point on, people in school thought I was a camera assistant and they would call me to do all their assisting. And then once I graduated, I actually worked in development at Disney and Oh,Michael Jamin:That as Yeah, like an executive?Missy Ozeas:No, I was like just in the like entry level assisting Okay. A development head at Disney.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:And actually I hated it cuz I didn't like to pick up phones and wear a dress and I just did not like it. Yeah. And on the weekends, people who had graduated ahead of me started calling me like, oh, I have this music video, do you wanna come be my camera assistant? I was like, sure. And then they're like, we'll pay you a hundred bucks. And I was like, Ooh, a hundred bucks. Okay. So yeah. So I just remember one night I was like in a truck and we were pulling focus and we were crashing the truck into a fruit stand in the middle of the night. I was like, man, this is so fun. Wow. I wonder if I could do this for a living. And that's when I quit Disney and I decided to be a camera assistant.Michael Jamin:. What people don't realize and they shouldn't realize, it's like, so you have a, there's, there's various people who work literally behind the camera. And the the, what you did was pull focus, meaning you were li you had, I guess it's usually at a cable or now it's probably remote, but you are literally deciding what the, you know, the focus is, but somebody else is actually moving the camera. And sometimes you have a third person actually pushing. Yeah,Missy Ozeas:Yeah. For sure. Yes. If that's how we do it, . Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And so it's like, it's a, it is real, it's real teamwork. But, and so what were some of the jobs and I, okay, I know you started in features. What are some, what are the, some of the features and, and TV shows that everyone would've known that you worked on?Missy Ozeas:Okay. So you won't know any of the features I worked on cuz they're all really low budget. Okay. But the, so I worked on last man standing with Tama. I worked on the ranch with Ashton Kucher. Mm-Hmm. , I worked on baby daddy. Right On that one I worked on let's see, my wife and kids. Mm-Hmm. I worked on there's so many I can't even rememberMichael Jamin:So many. Cause we have a couple together. We don't apparently remember what they were, but but yeah, but then, and working on a multi-camera show, which is like shot on a sound stage, which we like friends, which I, or just shoot me, which . Apparently one of us worked on one of this. But, but yeah. And that's a, that's actually a much easier life as opposed to being on a single camera show. Don't you think? At least for you guys it wasMissy Ozeas:Oh yeah. And in fact that I just got lucky that I ended up meeting somebody who hired me to work in sitcoms Right. When I was wanting to get pregnant. So I actually by accident got into sitcoms and then I was like, whoa, wait, I don't have to build my camera every day. I don't have to travel all around the world. Which was great, but not if you're gonna have kids. Yeah. And you know, I build my camera one time and then it's like a family. You stay there for months and months mm-hmm. and butMichael Jamin:Even still, it's only a part-time job because when you're on a multi-camera show, you're working, let's say Thursday, Friday, right?Missy Ozeas:It is. But so I would always have two shows. So I would work four days a week and that was perfect. Like, I worked pregnant, both pregnancies, I have two kids. I work pregnant , I nursed on set. I did like everything. I don't know, I dunno how I did it. Michael Jamin:How did you get into the union? Because that's not an easy task. And what is, it's II right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, it's local 600. And I got in, in those days you just have to have a hundred paid days. So I would collect call sheets and I, that's where I did a whole bunch of low budget.Michael Jamin:That's what you, that's all it is. A hundred paid days on any kind of shootMissy Ozeas:At. I don't know if it's that true anymore. This is a while ago . But that's all I hadMichael Jamin:To do. I think you just have, you would just show your call. It seems like call sheets could be easily forged, right?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Well they somehow believed it. It, I I'm sure it's different now. I don't know. But that's all I had to do then.Michael Jamin:And then you did. And then what, okay, so one thing, you were around, you were around stars during rehearsals, you're around, I mean, what, you know, what did you see? How did you see your, from your end? I mean, I always thought when we were put on a show on for example, just shoot me or any, my multi-camera shows, we'd stage a show and then how the crew would react during the first day of rehearsal was everything. You know? And because you guys were seeing it for the first time in rehearsal and if you guys are laughing, it's good. And if you're not laughing, we have a problem.Missy Ozeas:Well, okay, so that's funny. So we had a show concept that that like, okay, so I've been on work so much in comedy, that takes me a lot to laugh.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:So, you know, you're pulling focus and you're right there, like you're eight feet away, 10 feet away from the actors. Like you're really close to them and you're watching them rehearse and you're doing everything. And then, you know, they'll do a joke and you're like, mm. You know, I didn't really laugh, but then the joke was like, oh, Missy laughed.Michael Jamin:Right?Missy Ozeas:Okay, that's, that must be funny. So . So that, that was good. But we would watch, you know, some of it, like Tim Allen, he's great. He will improv, he will try things. Right? Like that was kinda interesting to watch the actors and the writers together. Like to me, like how they navigate that, I guess how they navigate. I guess Tim could probably do it cuz he's a big star. But he will definitely say, oh that worked, that doesn't work. And then he'd make it funnier or they do something together, they collaborate. So that was always fun to watch how that happens behind the scenes.Michael Jamin:And then how, when, how would you get work? Like how does that work for a camera operator?Missy Ozeas:Well I got lucky because I worked with the very first DP basically that I worked on in sitcoms. Don Morgan. I worked with him my entire career.Michael Jamin:Wait, you didn't have any other dps youMissy Ozeas:Worked with? I did have other dps when there were off times or maybe my second show, but literally my entire career is thanks to Don Morgan.Michael Jamin:Right. And that's kind of how it goes, right? Us usually DP is director of photography and then they're, they're hired and then they, they basically pick their crew, right? Is that how it usually goes?Missy Ozeas:Yes. Yeah. And I just feel super thankful cuz he's like a, the nicest guy. He's very talented and he just kept working. I got lucky every time he worked I get to go with him. So,Michael Jamin:And then how would you get other jobs? They, you know, that, that weren't through him.Missy Ozeas:Because the sitcom world is so small and so if you think about camera, it's the same group like you probably saw in all your shows. It's kind of the same people. Yeah. So,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's funny cuz you know, working on a multi-camera show is very different from a single camera show. Now, often people float in and out. I mean, at least I'm, I was on low bitch budget shows a lot, so, you know, people would just jump a minute. They get a better offer. .Missy Ozeas:Yeah.Michael Jamin:But then, and then was it hard for you because le well maybe you didn't do this, but I always felt for people, especially crew members who sub in for a day or two, they don't know anybody, they just jump right in. You know,Missy Ozeas:Okay, this is gonna sound funny, but I rarely, I hate day playing. Okay. So this is just me. And I mostly didn't day play mo mostly cuz I didn't really like it. And I, I was always busy. I I really worked a lot, but like, regularly with the same crew. Right. So I guess maybe I was lucky I didn't do it very much. I didn't have to, but I know a lot of people do and it's great because that's, that's great. They're professional. Like anyone could jump in. Like if I got sick, I knew I could call these, these people. They could jump in and do it. It's the same job. It's just that as a focus puller, you have to get used to, okay, what does your camera operator like? Because you're not just point focused and sitcoms, you're also zooming. So you, you're in charge as the actor moves, you've gotta zoom out, you know, so you stay in the frame or what is a, a single look like for this DP or this operator versus that one you different or what is we know, oh, this director's coming in. This director likes, you know, really tight singles. So you just have to know, oh, that guy likes that, or this person likes this.Michael Jamin:And do you, and you take notes though, during the run through, right? So, you know,Missy Ozeas:Yeah. We, we take notes and, and then I, what I love is I was mostly on the center camera. So the center cameras are the ones that have more movement and they're the, you know, the wider shots. Right. And to me, that's what I love because you pretty much don't even look at your notes. You just looking at that mon and you're just doing it all intuitively. Like that's what I loved. That's what I thrived at. I was bad at technical, but I could in use my intuition to just keep everything in frame. Like, that was so fun. That to me was fun.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I, that's so interesting. I remember when I was working on Maron it's a single camera show. And, and it was working on, on loca, on set where, you know, on location it was like some cramped like living room or something. Yeah. . And I was running the show and I was my partner and I remember like, I was hunched over the camera cause I couldn't see, I like video village was somewhere far away. I wouldn't be on set. And, and I was hunched over the guy pulling focus. He got so mad at me. He was like, get off the to go.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sometimes we have to share like that. Occasionally we have to do that with the director. And you're kind of like, well, okay, wait, I need to see too. Yeah,Michael Jamin:You need to see too. Right. I knows upset. I was like, I don't wanna fight. File a grievance against me. It's like I, no,Missy Ozeas:It's, it's because you know what, it's like you're in his office. If you think about it, this is my, my Apple box and my monitor, my focus point. This is my Apple. I knowMichael Jamin:This is his an office. And, and the way I felt was like, well this is my set. .Missy Ozeas:Yeah, yeah. Right, right. That's true. .Michael Jamin:No, but we were, yeah, we were at odds. But I made sure I stayed away from him after that. But after I was like, I don't have the guy, you know, getting calling, calling the union on me or something. But but okay. And so you did, and so mostly you did sitcoms. You didn't even do a lot of dramas,Missy Ozeas:Right? Nope. I want, see, once you get in sitcoms, especially if you're a parent, I think mm-hmm. , it's like, it's so I don't wanna say easy, well, kind of easy in that like physically it's easier on your body cuz everything's built and you just come in and it's like a family. I loved it.Michael Jamin:We're talking about multi-camera cuz single camera's a whole different thing, right. For you.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. That that's not that fun to me.Michael Jamin:And, and now there's very few single camera shows. Especially coms rather.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, that's true. I mean, so yeah, that's true. ItMichael Jamin:Really isn't. I mean, so we, cuz I wanna talk about, so I understand why you got into the business and I know you started transitioning outta the business. And so what, what motivated you? Like how did, what was that like? What did you, when did you know it was time ?Missy Ozeas:This is how I knew it. Well, I've been kind of bored, I think. But I didn't admit it to myself. And I think we can get complacent. Like we can just say, well this is a good life. And I did, I still loved it, but part of me was bored and then I realized like, you can ask people who work with me. I'm spending a lot of time talking to people about their problems. like, and then it's like, oh, okay, wait, I better get back to my camera and find out what's going on. So I would talk to a lot of people about their problems. I was like, Hey, this is kind of interesting, like what, why is that? And then one day on the ranch, the director came up to me and he said, oh, I mean he is really nice. He's like, okay missy, you know it's time to move up. What do you wanna do next? And like he, he was really kind, that was really nice of him to say. Right. and then literally I think my mouth was like no. And then I was like, whoa, that's super rude. But that's actually what I felt is like what I actually was, I think what was going through my mind was no way in hell do I wanna like learn another trade, uhhuh or even stay in this and really any longer.Michael Jamin:But that hadn't occurred to you cuz you at that point, well you've been working as a, in, in camera for, I don't know, 20 something years or more, right?Missy Ozeas:Yep.Michael Jamin:Yep. It, it hadn't occurred to you that you wanted to do something different before that or you know, you, eh,Missy Ozeas:Kinda, but you always get wheeled back in, reeled back in because it's like your whole crew is like, oh, we've got another season on this, or this got a pickup. And it's like, you're kind of going with that tide. And I felt lucky that I was able to do that. Right. And then it's like, why would I, there's not that many spots as a focus puller in Multicam. Why would you give it up? So those sort of beliefs of really it's scarcity or, and also just being scared to even find what the other thing is that you want. Because I didn't know what I wanted. That's the other thing. I didn't even know what I wanted to do. So it was hard to say, I'm gonna leave to do what I don't know. ButMichael Jamin:If you had, like, let's say a camera up was, was sick, you could have stepped in that day, right?Missy Ozeas:Yes. And okay, that was the other thing that was happening is people were saying, okay Missy, it's time to move up, be a cam operator. But I had zero interest in that and that, that I did know. I was like, Ugh, okay then that means I'm gonna have to go back to square one and start working you know, on maybe lower budget things as a cam operator. Well, maybe, maybe not, but I just, it just didn't, it wasn't a hell yes. It was more like a, ugh, that's all I can say.Michael Jamin:, you're, you're in this creative business creative field and you were just stagnating and, but you were okay with that. I mean, you, it was, you didn't wanna do anything different.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I didn't know what that would look like. What would that be? I didn't know, but I just knew it wasn't that. So, so actually that's a really good point. I didn't, I had clarity about what I didn't want. I think like, okay, I know I'm getting to the end of this, but I had no clarity on what I wanted. Right. But I actually wantedMichael Jamin:And then, and then how did you find that clarity?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So after I said no to the director, I was like, Ooh, that was weird. Okay, I better examine that. So I went back to my meditation. WasMichael Jamin:He insulted by the way? Was he like,Missy Ozeas:I dunno, he's like a nice guy. I don't know. I, me, I don't know. I never went back and asked him that , right. But yeah, so I went recommitted to my meditation practice, which I had before. And then I just ask every day my meditation, like, give me an answer like what am I supposed to do? ButMichael Jamin:Lemme ask you this though before you go on, because I meditate as well and I, you're not sup I always feel like you're not supposed to think when you're meditating. Like, I don't understand people who say I ask myself when you're meditating.Missy Ozeas:Okay, so this is, that's a great question. So, so I had heard, and I now I really believe this, that if you ask the universe a question by law, it has to answer mm-hmm. . So it will give you an answer whether that's a voice. I mean, you wouldn't think it's a voice in your head, it could be somebody else talking to you and giving you an answer. You read something, you get some kind of answer. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna try that. So I would set the intention at the beginning of the meditation, Hey, during this meditation, by the way, can somebody tell me what I'm supposed to do next?Michael Jamin:But at that point, when your mind wanders, you're supposed to get back to focus on whatever your, the breath or whatever it is you're focusing on. So,Missy Ozeas:Well I have sort of a thing about that. I don't think there's one right way to do meditation and that might just be me, but I think it's going inward is the point going inward and whatever. So, so some of the, like they say the monkey mind, the thinking that's actually just needs to get out. Like the more we try to like control it, the more it's gonna try to get in there. So part of it is just letting those thoughts come and then letting 'em go.Michael Jamin:And then what, because I, because when I'm, if I'm meditate, I'm thinking about, oh, I gotta balance my checkbook or whatever it is, you know, then I think my, nope. Get focus back on, don't, we're not, don't be distracted. Get back on the path of whatever that is. And so I don't understand how we, if you are waiting to hear an answer during your meditation, I don't understand how that's supposed to work.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, well I didn't quite understand either until it happened, but what I will say is it's a process and it's different for every person. So when they say you have to meditate this way and you have to do this, this, I don't think so. I think you could be walking and that could be a meditation, like for like some people walk better. It's really just getting into a deeper part of your mind. So you could say it that way or you could say connecting to your higher self. Like there's just different ways to say it, but you're really getting deeper than that surface stuff. Like, I have to do my checkbook or I have toMichael Jamin:Do that. Are you, are you thinking or are you trying not to think?Missy Ozeas:For, for me,Michael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:For me, when I go to a chase station, actually I'm not trying to do anything. And I think that's might be the key is I'm just, whatever's coming up, I'm kind of sitting there open to whatever's coming up.Michael Jamin:So you ask yourself, so you set an intention and are you are, what are you, are you walking? Are you breathing? Are you sitting? What are you doing? ForMissy Ozeas:Me, I do, I'm better sitting. So I meditate right? When I wake up in the morning, I meditate at the end of the day and Okay,Michael Jamin:For how long?Missy Ozeas:It's different every time. I have like 30 minutes. It's 30 minutes or less at the beginning. And then at the end of the night it's much less Uhhuh . But youMichael Jamin:Close your eyes.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I close my eyes and you'reMichael Jamin:Sitting in a chair.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, I'm sitting up. Oh, in my bed or somewhere. But I, you sit up usually. Right? And then I have my own process of getting in. And that's the thing is also you could use a guided meditation.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What is your pro, I'm cur Can you share what your process is?Missy Ozeas:Yeah, so I actually call, okay, so now it's gonna get kind of woowoo here, but I call in, so I put my hand here cuz like the high heart. So it's like a touch point. And I call in basically my spirit guides because I believe that we all are guided, however you wanna call it. We have beans that help us gotta get out there. But so I call them in and then I just sit in my meditation and I also do a lot of work for the future . Okay, that sounds weird, but I do a lot of like if my daughter is having something going on, like, or okay, just say my daughter has a job interview, then I will do some energy work around my daughter making sure she's sc grounded, she's safe and she has really good job interviews. So it's a lot about outcomes. Like, or also I do a lot of envisioning of like, what would be the highest outcome, you know, this or something better. So I do a lot of work where I envision what I want and then it going well. Things I should, that's so manyMichael Jamin:Things like that. I'm gonna interrupt you for just one second. Get back on it. So I should mention, you got out of working on set and now you are a healer and this is how you help people. So yeah. , this is why, why you know so much about this, but okay, so let's say you're, let's say your daughter's going on an interview and you're trying to help her Bryce setting an intention. And by the way, you helped me about with something. So I'm gonna talk about that in a second. But, so she goes out on interview and you're trying to, you're setting, setting out this energy, hoping that it goes well, but let's say it doesn't.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. So, okay. So that's a really good point. So to me, so I'm an energy healer. So what I do is I work with the energy in a person. So every person has an energetic field and inside that field it are beliefs, like limiting beliefs, right? Trapped emotion. There are all these things in here. So I'll get back to how this works. So basically as a healer, a heal to heal really just means to balance. So you're re helping somebody rebalance, but it's also like a handshake. So I can offer a healing to you, but it's up to you if you want to take that handshake mm-hmm. . And that's the first thing. So you have to want to accept it. And you might say, well, okay wait, are you talking to your daughter? Are you talking to this person? This is on a different, it's like everybody. So I believe we are a spirit with a body. So this is spirit to spirit work. So if my daughter's spirit doesn't want to accept that, that's fine, right? I can't force anything on anyone. And that is exactly how it should be. So there'sMichael Jamin:But is she aware that you're doing this for her or no?Missy Ozeas:No. Oh, it depends. Like sometimes people ask me, so the work I do, people are actually asking me, oh, can you work on this? Can you work on that? And if I send a healing quote, send a healing to somebody, it's just me extending it out and then it's up to their spirit if they wanna take it. Because we never wanna take somebody off. What is, so you asked what if it didn't go well, that's, that's because it wasn't meant to be right? It wasn't, that's her, that's for her. Cuz we always say this or something better and something better to us, we might say, oh, she didn't get that job. That must be terrible that that's a bad thing. But what we don't really realize is that was probably the best thing she wasn't supposed to get. That there's something better or it saved her from something. Rejection is protection. Mm-Hmm. you know, or, or redirection.Michael Jamin:But does she, I guess I'm asking does she have to buy in for it to work?Missy Ozeas:No. So that's a really good question. So a lot of times also I work on people who are babies. So they didn't buy in, right? They, or they're not physically understanding. Or if somebody is sick, like say you have a parent and they're like, you know they're unconscious or something, you can still work on an offer of that person and it's up to that person's spirit, whether they not wanna take it or not. So no, you don't have to consci because it's not same as therapy. Like when we're in therapy, we're talking about it and it's about our mind. This is deeper than the mind. So you don't, you could be, you and I could work together and you could be sleeping and I could still work with you because I'm working with your spirit, not with Michael. Y your personality.Michael Jamin:And then how do I know? How do I know if it worked then if I'm, if I'm asleep?Missy Ozeas:Oh, we, yeah, well cuz you'd kind of watched the outcomes. You, so you'd watch for outcomes and you, so, so example is like if we looked at you, Michael, and we said, oh, okay Michael, like if you said, you know, or we say we have a screenwriter, a young screenwriter who's coming up really wants to sell this screenplay. But if I looked in his field, it, I saw something that said, you know, I'm not good enough. Like maybe there were three and something happened and they have that belief I'm not good enough. Well, it's gonna be really hard for that person to sell that screenplay because they're going to feel, well I'm gonna turn it in, but it's probably not good enough and they're gonna approach with that energy. Right? So wait, I don't know if that answered your question, WellMichael Jamin:No, it's interest. Cause I wanna, it's funny, I, I worked, well you worked with me. So I think it was a couple years. I know it might have been two, twoMissy Ozeas:At least, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. And so I was just, I was in this space where I'm writing this book and it was just at the beginning of this book. And then you helped me and I wrote down, I have and I have them my notes what you wrote down. Oh actually it was, it says September. Well, I'm not sure if that's right, but you spoke to me about a couple of things and the ones that I wrote down were my voice is a gift to this world.Missy Ozeas:Yeah, wellMichael Jamin:That was a big one and that really meant a lot to me. And I really went off thinking about that a lot afterwards. And then the other one was, what lies am I telling myself? I think you said that as well. And then, but is that something you was that specific to me that, I mean that's good advice for everyone, but is that specific to me?Missy Ozeas:Okay, so the voice is, your voice gift is very specific to you. And would you say that with everything that's happened? So I've watched you and it's like so awesome. I just love it that, so I've seen you twice in your play or your readings, right? And I think that like I can, I'm sitting in the audience so I can feel what the audience, how they're reacting to you. And also I've seen you on social media like since the time that we worked together. You've really used your voice. It's super amazing. I'm not saying cause of the work we did, but I'm saying because you chose to do that. And even if it was scary, I don't know to you, you walk through that fear and that's when our manifestations come in, when we do the clearing and we walk through, you take action and walk through fear, which you clearly did. And you're clearly in alignment because a lot of amazing things are happening for you and you're using, you are using your voice.Michael Jamin:But I still feel, you know, it's funny to say, I still feel stuck sometimes. I still, you know, it is, it feels like it doesn't go away really, you know?Missy Ozeas:Well, and that's also, it's like I always say our energy's like an onion. So we did the work on what? So I ask your body what we, we ask specifically for whatever you were working on. Your body will show me those pieces that need to be released that are blocking you. But then the next thing will come up, right? And, and that's what we wanna do is then watch what's the next things that's triggering us and we're gonna know that's the next thing I need to work on. So we're always to work in progress.Michael Jamin:But then how do you, how do you know what these layers, the onion are for me? Is it in, are you intuiting it, are you like what you know?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay, so that's that weird thing. So I have this weird gift and, and where I can see energy and like when I was little I saw ghosts and stuff and I was scared of looking in the mirror because I would see things uhhuh, . But then I cut it off cuz I could tell that that was not appropriate. So I hid that part of myself, right? But after I started doing training, I, I started getting certifications and training in it. Then it, it grows right? Just like a muscle, right? You get stronger, you're a better runner the more that you train for it. So in training I was able to bring it out. So yeah, I can look at somebody and see where we a just ask your body a question cuz your body holds the key. It holds all these nonphysical elements of, of Michael in there.Michael Jamin:And, and so do you work a lot with, is it crea, is it everybody or is it mostly creative people or is it creative people? Like, you know,Missy Ozeas:I, I can I work with, I could work with anybody. I would say that mostly they're creatives, mainly because I came from that field. Like if I came from maybe corporate, I might work with corporate, but I don't work with corporate because that'sMichael Jamin:How they find you.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. some odd people in Hollywood. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin:Do you, so, okay, so you work mainly with creative people. Do you feel like they tend to have a certain, is there a similarity that you see with creative people? Like a pattern maybe? Yeah,Missy Ozeas:It's that their voice or what they have to say isn't good enough. It's, I guess most people have this, but really with creatives, it's this fear that what they have inside isn't enough. And that's what I love. That's why I love working with creatives because it is, we are all you being authentic. So you actually being totally Michael is the thing that draws people to you. And, and even when we, and then the thing is we start judging ourselves. That's the part about the lies that we were talking about with you. Yeah. Is is that actually true? Because you might perceive something through your own sort of wounds or things that happen when you were little. But the rest of us isn't, we don't see that we Right. We just want you to be authentically you. Cuz then that's interesting. We don't want like another copy of someone else.Michael Jamin:So you're basically saying it's imposter syndrome.Missy Ozeas:Yes. Everybody has.Michael Jamin:Yes. Pretty much has.Missy Ozeas:Yes. So it's uncovering what keeps you hiding, what is it?Michael Jamin:But is there anybody, this is gonna sound mean , but is there anybody who, like when you say like, your voice is a gift, is there anybody whose voice isn't a gift? You know what I'm saying? Is there, is there anybody whose talent doesn't measure up?Missy Ozeas:Well it depends. I would not say everybody's voice is a gift because they have a different gift. You have the gift of a voice that's very specific to you. But somebody else might have the gift of painting that's not a voice. That's their painters or their I don't know, you know, they can create a great house. They're they interior designer, right? Everyone has different gifts. And that is the thing about purpose. It's like if anybody here is looking for their purpose, it's what comes easy and natural to you. That's one piece. And that doesn't come easy and natural to other people and what brings you joy. And if you can put those things together, that is the, the, the sweet spot. And so for you, you, your voice, the what you have to say actually with the voice, what you're writing, all of that is what you're naturally good at. And then, well, I guess I would ask you, is it, do you like it?Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Well yeah, I mean, yeah, when you select my, my show, like that's, we're doing, putting more energy into that. It feels kind of important. But it does feel, it does feel like like it's, it's al it's almost crazy how much, like, what I want is, it is like the road is so long, there's so much building that has to go into going down this road. It almost feels crazy. Hey, that's,Missy Ozeas:That's different though. What about when you are doing it, when you're either riding it or when you're performing it, what is that? You knowMichael Jamin:What, right before I go on, you know, in that stage, every single time I go on, I can hear the audience chattering. The music comes on and I'm my heart, you know, I'm getting a little nervous and almost every single time before I go on, I go, why am I doing this ? But, and then, and I've asked myself that question a lot to a lot of different people. And I think the best answer I can come up with is because I can.Missy Ozeas:Because you can. Okay. What are you feeling like while you're doing it?Michael Jamin:You know, this is, you know, Cynthia directs it, so she's trained me a lot. I'm, yeah, I'm really supposed to be lost in it. I'm supposed to be in that moment. And sometimes if I slip out and I go, wait a minute, I'm not performing, I'm not in the moment, I'm not performing it now I gotta get back. I gotta be in that moment. And so I'm almost not really conscious of what's going on. I'm in it. And sometimes I think, I don't know, you've seen a couple of shows, but afterwards a couple pieces are very emotional and I could tell the people in the audience are almost thinking like, is he gonna be okay? , you know, I'm in it, it it,Missy Ozeas:But that's, but that's flow. Like, you know, we're in flow when we're so in it. I don't know, maybe when you write are you also in flow? You know, when it just starts, comes not that every moment is like that, but flow is also when we know that we're kind of doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing. Not everybody is in flow when they're writing. Not everyone can get up there and, and be in a character and, or I guess you're not a character, you're you. But yeah, be up there and be okay and be in flow. Not everybody can do that. That's the thing is you, so you're married to Cynthia who's an actress, so you might have this view and you work in Hollywood, so you might think, you know what, everyone can do this. No, that's a skewed view.Michael Jamin:. Yes. That's what I do think I do. I do feel like, well I work with a lot of writers who could do what I'm doing, but they just choose not to. And so, but you're right, it does, it does in many ways it kind of discounts it because it, it seems normal. I'm around people who do this kind of thing, you know? And so I don't really think, well, I it's not that special. We all can do it, you know,Missy Ozeas:And that's part of the lies, right? We wanna see like, is it a lie? Can everyone do this? No. Also we often discount what we're good at because it is so natural. Like I would guess that it's really easy for you to write, say you've been a writer for a long time, that not that every moment is easy, but you can write. So you kind of like, well that's not so special. I don't know, I've always done it or Right, I've done all, but no, it's not true. And that's true for a, you know, a tennis player or anybody. A lot of us discount what we're actually naturally good at because it comes so easy. And that's a great question to ask your friends or your spouse, like, well, what do you guys think I'm good at? If you can't figure out what you're good at yourself, ask somebody who knows you and they'll tell you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, see it. Yeah, I remember what, what's kind of struck me after doing a bunch of these shows and we're gonna do more again, I guess in the summer or the fall, something like that. But after I do these shows, people would come up to me and then they'd start telling me their secrets. You know,Missy Ozeas:. Okay. Okay. And how do you feel about that?Michael Jamin:It, it, it was shocking. It felt like an honor. It, it sometimes feel like, at first it was like, why are you telling me this? You know? . But, but I think it's because I just did the same, I had just done the same to them that they wanted to rec, they felt it was safe to, to reciprocate. You know? DoMissy Ozeas:You see that? No. It's so exciting. Okay. Do you see that's what I mean about your voice's gift because you are gifting that, that sense of vulnerability and safety that we see when you go on stage, then we feel that. And I've been in your things where I was crying actually. So I felt that. But then people telling you that means that you have created this space for somebody else to feel safe. To tell you that is a gift to, it's like a key to unlock. It's so another way we could say you have the key, you have a key to unlock that not everybody can do that.Michael Jamin:Right? That's another thing you taught me. And I, that's another thing which I really, for years you told me. I mean, yeah, your voice is your gift. And when I, when I heard gift for years, I'll think, you know, people say, oh, you're gifted, you're a gifted writer. I interpret that it as mean as like the universe had given me this gift and now I have it and now it's mine. And then you said that it doesn't have to mean that your voice is your gift could mean your gift for everyone else. Yeah. And that changed a lot to me. That changed everything. Cuz then it felt like it's selfish. If I don't give the gift, it's theirs. It's not for me, it's for them. Yeah. And then it takes, it, it really changed a lot because part of it, yeah, it felt like, well this is my obligation is to give this gift. It No, it's not. It's at first it felt like, well, okay, I have this thing and I'm, I'm almost like, is it showing off? Or is it, is it about me if I'm doing, if I have this gift and, and you're like, no, it's about, it's about them. It's for them.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. And, and, and the other thing I would say is, so when you were born, this is you, but this is everybody listening. You were actually, were given gifts, the gift of writing, the gift of insight, the gift of whatever all your gifts are specific to Michael. And then you are also given desires. So the desire for you to get your work out there or be on tour or any of that. Mm-Hmm. is actually the gift because that's how we know where to go is the desires and, and the the gifts that you were given. And then you give that. So it's a double gift. You were gifted and then you're gifting back out. And that's how all of us who have imposter syndrome should view it that way. It's not about us, it's not about the comparison. It's just about, oh my gosh, what gifts do I have? What feels good for me to give out? And then that's all. We don't even have to think about how it's re received. We just give it.Michael Jamin:That's, that's right. And it's cuz when we were, when Cynthia and I were, you know, working on the play my show and she's directing me at every step, we're always thinking, well I always, I always thinking, what else can I give the audience? What else, how else can I give them more? You know, that's another thing. People are paying whatever is 35 bucks for a ticket. I'm like, you, you gotta give them more like whatever. It's not enough because it's a lot of money, you know?Missy Ozeas:Oh. But then that's a belief in there though that, so that's interesting because that's almost like you're saying what I actually have my show isn't maybe enough.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. Yeah, I know.Missy Ozeas:And yeah, so, so that would be like kind of coming through like what's underneath that, like what emotions are underneath that? And then what age were you when you first believed that to be true? Because it's almost like, well I'm not sure if this is what it is, but equating $35 equals this, so it should be looked like this when actually you are priceless. You there isn't another person that's like my fault. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But, but you know how it is. Like, first of all, I'm asking people, okay, to buy a ticket. I'm asking 'em to take whatever, an hour and a half out of their day, their evening to get dress, go to the theater. It's a big ask. You know, park the car, get a babysitter. Maybe it's a big ask. And then nothing is worse than bad theater.Missy Ozeas:Okay. But that, so that's interesting you say it that way because I, as I, okay, so I have gone to the shows. I didn't think of it that way that you're saying. I was like, oh cool, I get to have an hour and a half or whatever time to not think about anything else. To just sit, immerse in a dark room listening to stories, feeling emotions without having to do anything else. So at that's very interesting that you feel it that way. And I don't, I didn't see it that way at all. You could haveMichael Jamin:Gone, there was a million shows you could have gone to that night, you know, if you wanted to sit in the dark and and experience a show.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. But I was excited to go to yours. I mean, and I think that that's the other thing to remember, free will and choice people, anyone who is in your theater, they chose to be there, right? So second guessing, oh no, did they choose to be there? Did someone make them be there? Do they not wanna be here? That doesn't actually help them because that's then you're maybe not giving your best performance. I guess what they came to see you, it should just be okay. I, they came to see me or they wouldn't be here. Cause yeah, they choose free will.Michael Jamin:That's something else Cynthia helped me with was like, I don't, I don't know which, which shows you came to, but at one point, maybe halfway through the run, Cynthia's like, you're not taking the stage the right way. I'm like, well how am I supposed to take the stage? She goes, you walk on the stage and you're a rockstar. That's what she wanted me to feel like. You've gotta feel like you're a rockstar. I'm like, but I'm not a rockstar. She, you are when you take the stage . And that was difficult, you know, to get that, to accept that it didn't feel humble, you know?Missy Ozeas:Ah, so also I've heard you say a couple things about that. So humble or is that selfish? So that's actually programming, right? So somewhere, and I'm not picking on you, this is like all no, I,Michael Jamin:This is helpful for me.Missy Ozeas:Things is that when we feel like, like that's bragging or I shouldn't market my show or I shouldn't, you know, I must be humble. That's actually somewhere, somewhere down the line we learned that our well basically that being who we are is too much kind of, or, or we learn like damp it down, tamp it down. And what good does that do? Like that doesn't that a lot of us were trained to dim our light. I mean, that's how we say it, right? Yeah. To be smaller bec in the name of being humble, but being humble really means throwing a lot of dirt on you so no one can see you. I mean like, that's how I see it. It's just like,Michael Jamin:But no one likes people who are, who are, who brag or who you know. Right. There'sMissy Ozeas:A difference though, between bragging and then inviting. Okay. So that's another way to think about. So if we think about selling, selling is like, please buy my thing. Maybe we might think like, oh look how great I am. See, but there's another version of that which is inviting, inviting you into your world. So you are, so that's another way you are inviting us to sit in your world with you for this amount of time. And I think it's fascinating. Like, it's fascinating to listen to your stories or learn a little bit more about your life or the way that you were thinking at that time in your life. Like, I wasn't like in your show, it's not like I'm sitting there like, oh my god, I'm like in it. I'm in it. Right? And that's what people want. Just like why do we go to the movies? We wanna escape, we wanna go into someone else's story. And that's a value, right? Well you right. That you gave us and if I didn't wanna go, I would just not buy a ticket. So if it helps you just know everybody wanted to be there.Michael Jamin:Right? But how do you clear that block? If that's something I deal withMissy Ozeas:The, oh well we'd have to ask your body questions. I mean, if you want me to, I could askMichael Jamin:Right now. I dunno, we're we're, this is, we're just talk. I don't make you gimme a free reading. I'm just No, no,Missy Ozeas:No, let's just do it for fun. I'm gonna ask your body right now. Okay. What is your question? Would you say it's about,Michael Jamin:Well what, yeah, what's my question?Missy Ozeas:Okay, so what do, so the block is I feel like I'm bragging or is it? Yeah.Michael Jamin:Okay. Right. Yeah. Am I not being humble? Yeah. Well people like me if I'm not humble maybe. Is that it?Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay. Okay, so p people, so what is the root cause? So we can, so we do this way. What's the root cause of, of your belief that people won't like me?Michael Jamin:Well maybe it's cuz I don't like people who are not humble.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. But it kind of goes both ways though. It's a belief, right? You wouldn't see it. It be yourself and to other people. It that makes sense to me. So let, let's just see. Okay, so now this is where I get an idea of where it is. So this in your solar plexus. So solar plexus is right, be right here, right? You can see, say right below your breast bone. Okay. So what comes to me is feeling overwhelmed with all the shoulds and half dues in your life. So that's the piece and that, that came maybe like eight or nine years old. So one, do you recognize that feeling?Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. Everyone's gonna be lining up to, to, they're gonna wanna go to your website right after this and lineup to get, you know, reading from you. So we'll, I'll be sure to mention that. But well, you know, as a kid, sure I was an obedient kid. Whatever my parents told me to do, I, that was, that was what I did.Missy Ozeas:Okay. Do you remember anything specific around that age?Michael Jamin:Specific to exactly what?Missy Ozeas:So, so how so? Oh yeah. Okay. I guess this is say, so this belief or this energy of feeling overwhelmed with all the shoulds and the have tos, which is kinda like being in a box. Like we could say like, have I have to stay in here otherwise I won't be loved probably, or safe or loved. That feeling you trapped it right here in your body and your solo plexus at, around the age of eight or nine from a specific event. So how I could look is maybe something happened at school or with your parents, but a specific event if you can't recall it. Okay. So sometimes we're like, I can't remember anything. Well, it's okay, your body is telling me Right. That that is what it is. But I always ask, I mean, do you actually recall anything?Michael Jamin:I, I mean I, I do recall being in school and being very nervous about getting, doing my homework Right. Doing my, you know, get, you know, doing everything right. And it's funny, you know, it's funny. Oh,Missy Ozeas:Okay.Michael Jamin:I, I, my mother saves all like my, all my report cards when I was like six years old or first grade, I guess that's six years old. And on in en it said Michael's, the teacher wrote, he's very concerned about getting everything right. And he comes to me when he has an assignment, he keeps coming back to me to make sure he's doing it right. God forbid he does it wrong. , like, I was always checking with her to make sure I'm doing it right.Missy Ozeas:Okay. So do you still feel that todayMichael Jamin:To some degree Yeah.Missy Ozeas:Yeah. Okay. So this is the, I know it's like, wait, what does this have to do with being humble? But it actually, your body's telling me it does. So it's actually the, the way I see it is that I have to act a certain way or I won't be loved. Right? I mean, so, so if I'm not, if I'm something that feels like bragging or I'm something else, I won't be loved. But it's based on being overwhelmed by half tos and shoulds at that young age. Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. Right?Missy Ozeas:I mean, again, this is only part of it. I mean, likely there's a lot more, but I'm just asking for one pieceMichael Jamin:And what do I do? Do I meditate on that and try to release that?Missy Ozeas:No, you just get rid of it. Look, . Well that's, that's the work. Okay. So the work that I do then is I find what those specific pieces are right for you. And then I hold the intention to release it and then we, okay, so now it sounds kind of weird. Okay, so this is how I explain it. Your we're made of energy. So our physical bodies also have an energy field around it. And in that field, in the energy field are, are like these beliefs that stop us from doing what we want, really want with our lives. It's conditioning, it's family programming, all those things. And so we energy will move according to intention and observation. That's like something you can look up with. It's quantum physics, like Google, quantum physics. Mm-Hmm. , you'll see there's experiments and things that show if you look at something that it will change the outcome.Right? So by finding, so together we observe, like we find exact piece of energy where it is in your body, the ag, where when you trapped it and then it hold the intention to release it. And then we put new, like another belief in that's more empowering. Like for you it's like, it's almost like the opposite. It's you know, like I'm safe. I don't know, we'd have to find one for you that feels right for you, but it's like I'm safe to be me. I mean it's really kind of something like that. Just like feeling safe.Michael Jamin:But then how long, once you release it, how long could you expect it to stay released? Like doesn't it come back?Missy Ozeas:It depends. I mean, sometimes I have to work with people longer, you know, more than, that's why I mostly work with people for two months so that we can release and then we integrate and then we kind of do some work in between the sessions and then we do another session and then we really can clear something out. And also likely that's only one piece we found. I am feeling like there's more other ones besides that and they're all kind of together. Right. You know, tabled together. The other thing though, it informs you, it helps you. So we know overwhelmed with all the have tos and shoulds also can help you think about your life now, not just with writing, but do you actually feel overwhelmed? Are there a lot of things that you feel like should be a certainMichael Jamin:Yeah.Missy Ozeas:Or you should do things So it's,Michael Jamin:Yeah, I struggle with that a lot. What should I, am I supposed to be doing this? Am I supposed to be, I, you know, I was supposed to be doing something else when I was younger, when I was in my twenties, you know, I think people called it existential angst. Am I supposed to be doing this? Am I supposed to be doing something out? And that's how I called. That's how what I thought about it myself.Missy Ozeas:So it's actually trust actually, now that we really talk about it, it's really self-trust. So think about you when you were talking about when you were little and you would say, oh, is this right? Did I do it right? Yeah. That's outsourcing Right. Your own that it really, it should be like, oh I know I did this. Right? Right. But it's okay. You were little but you were outsourcing that to somebody else to show you. Is that right or wrong? Right. And so we could say today your the greatest thing you could do for yourself would be really to trust yourself. Right.Michael Jamin:Right. And that's hard for a lot of people I think.Missy Ozeas:Yes, absolutely. Yeah. This is not just for you. We're not picking on you today. No. This is a good message for everybody is that we trust the gifts we were given. We trust the moment in time and we take those actions that might be scary, but sometimes it's just discomfort cuz we've never been there before.Michael Jamin:So why do you think people give away that kind of agency? Is it becauseMissy Ozeas:A lot of it is programming. I mean Right. Like we are taught teachers know best. Yeah. Or maybe when you're even younger than the age that we found that maybe you were no, let's not pick on your mom and dad cuz they were trying their best, but maybe they real had the kind of authority parents where they're like, no Michael, just follow the, this is the right, this is wrong. Right. This is the way to do it. And you weren't given agency, you weren't given, you weren't asked maybe a choice. Oh Michael, do you like, do you wanna wear the red shoe today? Or the blue shoe. Right? So things like that take away our agency.Michael Jamin:But even now as an adult, why do you feel adult? Just cuz they're conditioned. I mean it seems like, it seems like it might be, well, if I don't let somebody else decide if I'm doing it right, I can't if I'm not doing it right. You know, why do people not, don't trust themselves, I guess is the right question.Missy Ozeas:I still think it's goes back to programming because we weren't taught to care or we weren't taught to trust ourselves. And that is actually the magic is when we just trust our gut. Yeah. Even when nobody, like I went from being camera assistant to be an energy healer. That is a very weird thing. I had to do a lot of clearing on myself cuz that's weird like that. Yeah. That's weird. So, but I had to trust myself enough to say, okay, everybody, nobody understands this, but I'm gonna do this because I know it's the right thing. AndMichael Jamin:That's a, that's very hard cuz then you're opening yourself up to judgment and and you're changing your identity.Missy Ozeas:Yes. But what if we didn't allow ourselves to be open to judgment? Because does it really matter? Because here's the thing is some people, okay, if I look at myself, some people are gonna say, oh my God, Missy, you're so crazy. Or That is weird. I don't get what you do, I don't like it. But then there were all these other people who I helped and who loved it. So you are never gonna please everybody. There's gonna be people who love your show, people who hate your show. Right. That's just fact. Right. Nobody's gonna always love us. So we have to trust. We might as well, okay, we're gonna go through this life. We're never gonna get everyone to agree on everything, so why not do what we love and just put that out there.Michael Jamin:But do you, it sounds like, I mean, it sounds like you do you, do you ever have any doubts about, I mean, , even though you convinced yourself what you just said, don't be, don't worry about being judged. Do you still doubt?Missy Ozeas:Absolutely. Like I, like, you know, like going on Instagram or doing like you do, that was inspiring that, I mean, since it was telling me a y a year before like Missy get on Instagram, I'm like, oh, you can't do it. Like, my stuff didn't even have my face on it. Yeah. I wasn't doing podcasts, I wasn't doing anything. So that was, I had to walk through fear. But, you know, what helped me was I knew I was helping people. So same thing for you, you know, you're connecting to audiences. You can see our fate. I think you can, right. You can see we're reacting.Michael Jamin:Oh, in the now I can't see a thing. Oh, you can'tMissy Ozeas:See anything .Michael Jamin:Also people were wearing masks, you know? Oh,Missy Ozeas:That'sMichael Jamin:True. But, but even still the lights were right in my eye. I couldn't see anything.Missy Ozeas:But do you know that, do you know that people, you must have got feedback. Do you IMichael Jamin:Could sense it. You could feel it. Like you could feel when people are in it, you know, you could, you could hear a pin drop, you know, or you could hear a laughter or you could hear the, you know, siren. AndMissy Ozeas:People tell you probably give you feedback after so that you know that you are making some kind mm-hmm. of difference or you're affecting people and that's amazing. It's your gift. That's your gift. And you're giving your gift and then, you know, it's okay. Another way to think of it, it's like say I, I came to your house and I gifted you this pen. Mm-Hmm. , I gifted to you. And I don't think about it anymore. It's not like I'm, oh, I wonder if Michael'

This week and next, Ken talks to one of the premier sitcom directors in television. 34 episodes of FRASIER, 95 episodes of JUST SHOOT ME, and 196 episodes of HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER are just some of her many credits. Learn sitcom directing from one of the masters. More podcasts at WAVE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/artist/wave-podcast-network/1437831426

Kevin Sorbo received international stardom when he booked the lead role in “Hercules, the Legendary Journeys”, which became the most watched TV show in the world. Following that success, Sorbo had the lead role as “Captain Dylan Hunt” in “Gene Roddenberry's, Andromeda”. The independent film “What If” was nominated for Best Family Movie of the Year by the Movie Guide Awards. Sorbo also received the Movie Guide Award for Most Inspirational Performance of the Year. Sorbo also starred alongside Dennis Quaid and Helen Hunt in “Soul Surfer”, And the faith-based movie, “God's Not Dead”. The $2 million-dollar budgeted movie became the most successful independent faith-based movie ever with over $140 million in theatrical, streaming and DVD sales. “Let There Be Light” was a movie he directed/acted/produced and this faith/ family movie ranked number 4 out of the top 10 family movies of 2018. “Miracle in East Texas”, a Comedy based on a true story set in 1930 was another movie Sorbo directed/acted in. Movie release is scheduled for February, 2023 Movie also stars John Ratzenberger, Lou Gossett, Jr., and Sam Sorbo. Some of his many television credits include “Just Shoot Me, “Two and a Half Men”, “Dharma and Greg”, “According to Jim”, “Gary Unmarried”, “Psych”, “Hawaii 5-0”, and a recurring role in the final season of “The OC”. The major motion picture, “Reagan”, with Dennis Quaid playing the late President with Sorbo has his pastor will release in early 2023. . Principle filming just completed for the next “Left Behind: Rise of the Anti-Christ” movie with Sorbo directing and acting in the movie based off the Jenkins/LaHaye award winning books. Kevin released his memoir “True Strength: My Journey from Hercules to Mere Mortal and How Nearly Dying Saved My Life”. The book chronicles his neardeath experience when he suffered three strokes and the battle back to regain his life. He also co-wrote the follow up book, “True Faith, Embracing Adversity to Live in God's Light”, with his wife, Sam. Kevin sneaks in a quick conversation with Lou Diamond just ahead of a round of golf (played way faster than most) as this living legend shares how he continues to move onward and upward on Thrive LouD. ***CONNECT WITH LOU DIAMOND & THRIVE LOUD***

We got duped! A mere eighteen years after this episode aired, we realize that we may have been set up. Join Holly and Bridget as they dissect the second half of Girls Next Door Season 1, Episode 7, "Just Shoot Me." We're back on set at the girls' first Playboy pictorial, going over which shot was too risqué, which photos were banned in other countries, being recorded without consent, which point in this episode made Bridget turn off the TV, how they think they might have been set up and what they would change about this episode. For more content, including exclusive behind the scenes photos, video versions of Girls Next Level and a whole extra podcast (Slumber Party with Holly and Bridget), join our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/girlsnextlevel. See you there! Check out our new merchandise at https://www.represent.com/store/girls-next-level Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We got duped! A mere eighteen years after this episode aired, we realize that we may have been set up. Join Holly and Bridget as they dissect the second half of Girls Next Door Season 1, Episode 7, "Just Shoot Me." We're back on set at the girls' first Playboy pictorial, going over which shot was too risqué, which photos were banned in other countries, being recorded without consent, which point in this episode made Bridget turn off the TV, how they think they might have been set up and what they would change about this episode. For more content, including exclusive behind the scenes photos, video versions of Girls Next Level and a whole extra podcast (Slumber Party with Holly and Bridget), join our Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/girlsnextlevel. See you there! Check out our new merchandise at https://www.represent.com/store/girls-next-level Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices