Podcasts about Sivert

I denne episoden av lok kommer komiker og skuespiller Henrik Schatvedt og komiker og fremadstormende skuespiller Sivert Eimhjellen. Det snakkes om film, reklame og Sivert sin skuespillerkarriere så langt.Jingle: Jonis Josef Produsent: Marko CvitanovicCover: Kristine Lie Øverland

Godmorgon Växjö

Hva er altruisme og hvor har den blitt av?I denne episoden går vi i dybden på altruisme (vår evne til å føle og handle for andre, både nære og fjerne). Ikke minst hvordan altruismens posisjon har endret seg i våre liv. Du får møte psykologen Sivert Straume som har brent for temaet siden han undersøkte dens posisjon i vårt samfunn som en del av sin masteroppgave. Han forklarer de ulike lagene av altruisme og hvordan det både fungerer som motivasjon og kompass for verdiene våre. Han løfter frem koblingen mellom altruistisk apati og samfunnsutviklingen mot mer selvaktualisering.Sammen med Jimmy ser de på hvordan altruismen møter vårt privilegium som innbyggere av et av verdens rikeste land, men også hvordan den nære altruismen er en av nøklene til å snu samfunnstrendene på psykisk uhelse.Sivert Straume er grunnlegger og daglig leder av Bypsykologene i Bergen. Han er utdannet psykolog ved UiB og har videreutdanning i kognitiv- og metakognitiv terapi. Han har erfaring fra det private hos Aleris medisinsk senter, spesialisthelsetjenesten for tverrfaglig spesialisert rusbehandling ved Bergensklinikkene, pedagogisk psykologisk tjeneste (PPT), helsesstasjon og klinisk søvnforskning. I 2013 startet Sivert Bypsykologene der visjonen er å gi rask og god hjelp til klientene sine samtidig som de skal bidra til en bedre verden utenom kjernevirksomheten.God lytting!Vi trenger din hjelp for å fortsette å lage Hverdagspsyken!

Vi slog oss ner med vår norska vänsterback Sivert Øverby. Vad är nycklarna för den fortsatta framgången? Stämningen i laget? Hur ser han på sin första tid i Kalmar FF.  Ett gott snack helt enkelt! 

Gäst Daniel Westman  Välkomna till ett nytt avsnitt av Let Me Know-podcast, där vi i serien "Two Timer" lämnar Kiss-temat åt sidan och dyker ner i andra artisters oförglömliga album. Den här gången bjuder vi på en resa genom hårdrockens, rockens och filmmusikens världar, guidade av våra gästers personliga favoriter. Vi startar med Marko och W.A.S.P:s explosiva debutalbum från 1984, ett verk som chockade och fascinerade en hel generation. Därefter tar Bernt oss tillbaka till 1977 med Angels himmelska "On Earth as It Is in Heaven", en resa i glamrockens tecken. Slutligen får vi följa med Daniel till ringen och Rocky IV:s ikoniska soundtrack, ett 80-talsfenomen som definierade en era. Följ med oss på en resa genom tid och rum, där vi hyllar album som lämnat avtryck och skapar nya musikaliska minnen. Oavsett om du är en inbiten rockräv eller nyfiken nybörjare, kommer du garanterat att hitta något som får dig att lyssna med nya öron. Luta dig tillbaka, skruva upp volymen, och låt oss prata om album du inte får missa! Som vanligt blir det samtal om annat Kiss relaterat under färden... Chapters 00:00 Inledning och otrogna tankar 01:13 Albumdiskussion: Boss och Rocky 4 02:10 Engelpodden och dess påverkan 03:36 Steve Duren och hans karriär 05:27 Dysfunktionella band och deras historia 08:09 Circus Circus och W.A.S.P. 11:27 W.A.S.P.s tidiga år och skivkontrakt 15:01 Debutskivan och dess mottagande 19:26 Sivert Öholm och chockrocken 22:12 Debatt om hårdrock och dess påverkan 25:42 Avslutande tankar om W.A.S.P. 33:57 Rockens Utveckling och Klädstil 36:01 Favoritlåtar och Albumdiskussioner 39:10 Liveupplevelser och Konserter 42:05 Musikaliska Minnen och Nostalgia 48:04 Angel och Deras Musikaliska Resa 57:15 Tidstypiska Låtar och Musikaliska Reflektioner 01:14:00 Nostalgiska Skivor och Musikupplevelser 01:16:52 Musikaliska Influencer och Producenter 01:18:48 Rocky IV: En Film och Dess Soundtrack 01:24:06 Musikens Roll i Film och Berättande 01:32:02 Analys av Låtar och Teman i Rocky IV 01:41:42 Musikaliska influenser och 80-talets ljud 01:44:35 Låtanalys och känslor i musiken 01:48:10 Träningslåtar och motivation 01:52:58 Kamp och motgångar i musiken 02:00:15 Film och musikens samspel 02:04:31 Avslutande tankar om soundtracket

Du så han kanskje i «Ikke lov å le på hytta»? Komiker-stjerneskuddet Sivert Eimhjellen, som er aktuell med sitt soloshow «Månedens Ansatt» er gjest i denne episoden. Vi dykker ned i alt fra skilpadder (hvorfor er de så fascinerende?), til ville eventyr i utlandet (hvor mye av dette er egentlig lovlig?), og ikke minst – Kari Jaquesson (hvordan havnet hun i denne samtalen?). Dette er en episode full av latter, absurditeter og kanskje noen uventede visdomsord. Tune in, lene deg tilbake, og bli med på en time med Eimhjellensk galskap!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Klikk for å se episoden på YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sjekk ut ⁠showet hans ⁠og følg han på insta:⁠ https://www.instagram.com/siverteimhjellen/Følg podden på ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ og ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠!Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Isso⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Produsent: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Konkret⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Intro music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Martin Bråthen⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Outro & jingles: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Colembo⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Peggy's art is generated out of the site of her home studio at Portuguese Bend in Rancho Palos Verdes, California where she has resided since 1996. Her practice has incorporated sculpture, mixed media, drawing, painting, and assemblage across figuration and abstraction. Peggy's body of work utilizes equestrian and architectural motifs as embodiments of memory and lived experience. Peggy has had regular exhibits at Art galleries throughout Los Angeles and internationally in South Korea, Thailand, and Japan. She has been founder, curator and director for several nonprofit art galleries in Los Angeles.The artist also addresses the land movement upheaval where she lives. Her home is adjacent to a nature preserve that is part of an ancient landslide. Overlooking the Pacific Ocean, it is a haven for nature and wildlife and a crisis of broken land. Her work often explores the dichotomy between the broken and the flourishing.The breakdown is where she feels compelled to begin and explore.LINKS to ReviewsIntroducing the artwork of Peggy Sivert, an artist compelled to find meaning of ‘in the broken', through her workPeggy Nichols, Gallery C, Nov. 10, 2024Tijuana Triennial – Exciting International Art Just Across the Border, DiversionsLA review, Jan. 15, 2025~ ‘The Horses' poem: ~https://allpoetry.com/poem/8496359-The-Horses-by-Edwin-MuirWebsite:https://peggysivert.com/ 

I dag har vi fått med oss Sivert Ridderseth fra Tromsø. Sivert er kun 18 år gammel, men med sin partner Alex startet de opp Curve. Hva dette er og mye mer blir snakket om i dagens episode. Enjoy! Takk for at du lytter til Impressions Podcast! Har du forslag til gjester vi kan invitere? Send oss en melding på sosiale medier:Instagram: instagram.com/impressionspodTikTok: tiktok.com/@impressionspod Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Karina fortsetter sitt hemmelige oppdrag (har PST endelig tatt de tomme truslene på alvor??), mens Kathinka plukker vikar fra øverste hylle. Sivert fra Anger podcast er i en ond sirkel med en grevling som hater skrekkfilm, men begge har en forkjærlighet for dekket Robert. (Grevlingen? Kathinka? Hvem vet ass) Vi snakker Rubber fra 2010. logo: Madeleine Holme (@maddyee) theme: Levi Nuet

Podens favorittstandupkomiker skal ha solo-show så vi måtte ta en fot i bakken med Sivert.Har han fortsatt air fryeren på nattbordet?Månedens ansatt lever Christians drømmeliv - kos dere med denne.

Fluent Fiction - Norwegian: From Stormy Resolutions to Fresh Beginnings: A Family's Journey Find the full episode transcript, vocabulary words, and more:fluentfiction.com/no/episode/2025-01-08-23-34-02-no Story Transcript:No: Det var en gang en vinterdag i Norge, med snø som dekket landskapet som et mykt, hvitt teppe. I et stort familiehus, der peisen kastet et varmt lys over rommet, var Sivert, Inga og Magnus samlet.En: Once upon a winter's day in Norge, with snow covering the landscape like a soft, white blanket, Sivert, Inga, and Magnus were gathered in a large family house where the fireplace cast a warm glow over the room.No: Det var nyttårsdag, og ute raste en voldsom snøstorm, fastlåst familien inne.En: It was New Year's Day, and a fierce snowstorm was raging outside, keeping the family confined indoors.No: Huset var pyntet med glitter og girlander fra nyttårsaften.En: The house was decorated with glitter and garlands from New Year's Eve.No: Lister med nyttårsforsetter hang på kjøleskapet, noen allerede med små kryss ved siden av dem.En: Lists of New Year's resolutions hung on the refrigerator, some already with small check marks next to them.No: Inne i den lune stuen var stemningen spent.En: Inside the cozy living room, the atmosphere was tense.No: En samtale om nyttårsforsetter hadde raskt utviklet seg til noe mer.En: A conversation about New Year's resolutions had quickly developed into something more.No: Magnus, den yngre og mer tilbøyelige til å ta fyr, uttrykte høylytt sin frustrasjon over forventningene familien hadde til ham.En: Magnus, the younger one and more prone to flare-ups, loudly expressed his frustration over the expectations the family had for him.No: "Jeg vil ikke følge den samme veien som alle andre," erklærte han med en hevet stemme.En: "I don't want to follow the same path as everyone else," he declared with a raised voice.No: "Alle disse tradisjonene kveler meg!"En: "All these traditions suffocate me!"No: Inga, alltid den som ønsket å roe gemyttene, prøvde å mekle.En: Inga, always wanting to calm the waters, tried to mediate.No: "Vi kan finne en balanse," sa hun med en mild, men bestemt stemme.En: "We can find a balance," she said in a gentle but firm voice.No: "Vi kan opprettholde tradisjonene vi elsker, men også gi plass til nye drømmer."En: "We can maintain the traditions we love, but also make room for new dreams."No: Sivert, som hadde sittet stille, kjente en uro vokse inni seg.En: Sivert, who had been sitting quietly, felt a restlessness growing inside him.No: Han hadde alltid vært den som unngikk konflikter, men nå, med vinden som ulte utenfor og samtalen som bygget seg opp, forsto han at det var noe han trengte å si.En: He had always been the one to avoid conflicts, but now, with the wind howling outside and the conversation intensifying, he realized there was something he needed to say.No: Ønske om eventyr og frihet hadde lenge gjemt seg i hjertet hans, men han hadde aldri følt det var riktig tidspunkt å dele det.En: The desire for adventure and freedom had long been hidden in his heart, but he had never felt it was the right time to share it.No: Med et dyp pust, reiste han seg.En: With a deep breath, he stood up.No: "Jeg har også noe å si," begynte han, og alle vendte blikket mot ham.En: "I too have something to say," he began, and everyone turned their eyes toward him.No: "Jeg drømmer om noe mer enn det vanlige.En: "I dream of something more than the ordinary.No: Men jeg frykter å miste båndet vårt hvis jeg følger disse drømmene."En: But I fear losing our bond if I pursue these dreams."No: Ordene overrasket de andre, spesielt Magnus, som så på Sivert med en ny forståelse.En: His words surprised the others, especially Magnus, who looked at Sivert with a new understanding.No: Inga, med et melankolsk, men stolt blikk, la hånden på brorens arm.En: Inga, with a melancholic yet proud look, placed her hand on her brother's arm.No: "Vi ønsker at du skal være glad, Sivert.En: "We want you to be happy, Sivert.No: Vi kan støtte hverandres mål," sa hun med ekte kjærlighet i stemmen.En: We can support each other's goals," she said with genuine love in her voice.No: Det var som om noe senket seg i rommet, en lettelse, kanskje, eller en ny respekt blant dem.En: It was as if something settled in the room—a relief, perhaps, or a newfound respect among them.No: Stormen utenfor fortsatte med uforminsket styrke, men inne i huset fant familien en ny ro.En: The storm outside continued with unabated strength, but inside the house, the family found a new calm.No: De snakket videre, lenge etter at ildstedet hadde brent ned til glør, om hvordan de kunne tilpasse seg og samtidig holde sammen.En: They talked further, long after the fireplace had burned down to embers, about how they could adapt while still staying together.No: Sivert kjente at han hadde funnet sin stemme, og med det en ny vei han kunne følge, ikke alene, men med familien ved sin side.En: Sivert felt he had found his voice, and with that a new path he could follow, not alone, but with his family by his side.No: Og slik, mens det nye året virkelig begynte, ble ikke bare stormen utenfor stillere, men også de indre stormene roet seg ned, da familien gikk inn i det kommende året med en fornyet forståelse og styrket tilknytning.En: And so, as the new year truly began, not only did the storm outside grow quieter, but the inner storms also calmed down as the family entered the coming year with a renewed understanding and strengthened bond. Vocabulary Words:fierce: voldsomrage: rasedeconfined: fastlåstglitter: glittergarlands: girlanderresolutions: forsetteratmosphere: stemningprone: tilbøyeligflare-ups: ta fyrsuffocate: kvelercalm the waters: roe gemyttenemediate: mekleintensifying: bygget seg oppdesire: ønskeadventure: eventyrfreedom: frihetrestlessness: uropursue: følgerbond: båndmelancholic: melankolskrelief: lettelseunabated: uforminsketembers: gløradapt: tilpasserenewed: fornyetunderstanding: forståelsestrengthened: styrketkept: holdtsettled: senketnewcomer: nykommer

Denne episoden av "De som bygger landet" handler om Sivert Ridderseth, en ung gründer fra Tromsø som startet et digitalt markedsføringsbyrå som 16-åring. I samtalen deler han sin reise fra oppstarten, utfordringene med kundetap og oppbyggingen av byrået Curve sammen med sin partner Alex. Episoden går i dybden på hva som skal til for å lykkes med performance marketing, bruk av influensere, personlig merkevarebygging og hvordan det er å jobbe i et globalt fjernarbeidsteam. Sivert deler også sine erfaringer fra opphold på Bali og reflekterer over hva Norge kan gjøre bedre for å beholde unge gründere. En inspirerende episode om strategi, vekst og utholdenhet! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Dagens episode blir en typisk lok episode med mange forskjellige gjester som stikker huet innom studio. Sivert har inspirert Jonis og Alon til å leve sunnere, Gaute forteller om forræder og gutta disser han fordi han ble litt følsom i siste episode.Jingle: Jonis Josef Produsent: Marko Cvitanovic Cover: Kristine Lie Øverland En Juicy Producy

Fluent Fiction - Norwegian: Caught in the Storm: A Tale of Adventure and Caution Find the full episode transcript, vocabulary words, and more:fluentfiction.org/caught-in-the-storm-a-tale-of-adventure-and-caution Story Transcript:Nb: Skyene hadde allerede begynt å forandre himmelen.En: The clouds had already begun changing the sky.Nb: Preikestolen, den majestetiske klippen over Lysefjorden, stod i skarp kontrast til de mørke, truende skyene.En: The Pulpit Rock, the majestic cliff over the Lysefjord, stood in stark contrast to the dark, threatening clouds.Nb: Sivert og Katrine begynte sin tur tidlig på morgenen.En: Sivert and Katrine started their hike early in the morning.Nb: De ønsket å nyte høstens skjønnhet, men været hadde en annen plan.En: They wanted to enjoy the beauty of autumn, but the weather had other plans.Nb: Sivert gikk foran.En: Sivert walked ahead.Nb: Han var alltid på jakt etter et nytt eventyr, en ny utfordring.En: He was always on the lookout for a new adventure, a new challenge.Nb: "Kom igjen, Katrine!En: "Come on, Katrine!Nb: Vi må rekke toppen før stormen kommer," ropte han over skulderen.En: We need to reach the top before the storm hits," he called over his shoulder.Nb: Katrine var skeptisk.En: Katrine was skeptical.Nb: "Været ser dårlig ut, Sivert.En: "The weather looks bad, Sivert.Nb: Kanskje vi burde snu," svarte hun.En: Maybe we should turn back," she replied.Nb: Hun hadde alltid vært den forsiktige, den som så etter sikkerhet mer enn spenning.En: She was always the cautious one, valuing safety over excitement.Nb: De fortsatte å gå.En: They continued walking.Nb: Vinden begynte å tilta, og sivet på bakken svaiet voldsomt.En: The wind began to pick up, and the grass on the ground swayed violently.Nb: "Bare litt til," sa Sivert optimistisk.En: "Just a little further," said Sivert optimistically.Nb: Katrine nølte men fulgte etter.En: Katrine hesitated but followed.Nb: Hun ønsket ikke å la Sivert gå alene, men hennes indre stemmer varslet om fare.En: She didn't want to let Sivert go alone, but her inner voice warned of danger.Nb: Som de nærmet seg toppen, hørte de braket fra torden i det fjerne.En: As they approached the top, they heard the rumble of thunder in the distance.Nb: Sivert stoppet opp et øyeblikk.En: Sivert paused for a moment.Nb: "Skal vi snu?"En: "Should we turn back?"Nb: spurte han nå litt usikker.En: he asked now a bit unsure.Nb: Men stormen hadde allerede nådd dem.En: But the storm had already caught up with them.Nb: Regnet pisket ansiktene deres, og vinden blåste dem nesten av stien.En: The rain lashed at their faces, and the wind nearly blew them off the path.Nb: Det var for sent å vende om.En: It was too late to turn back.Nb: "Katrine, der borte!"En: "Katrine, over there!"Nb: ropte Sivert, med en finger pekende mot en liten hule i fjellveggen.En: Sivert shouted, pointing towards a small cave in the rock face.Nb: De løp mot det eneste tilfluktsstedet som var i sikte.En: They ran toward the only shelter in sight.Nb: Inne i hulen hev de etter pusten.En: Inside the cave, they gasped for breath.Nb: Huleinngangen ga dem ly fra værgudens vrede.En: The cave entrance shielded them from the wrath of the weather gods.Nb: Der, i den kalde, våte hulen, satt de sammen.En: There, in the cold, wet cave, they sat together.Nb: "Jeg skulle ha hørt på deg," sa Sivert tillitsfullt.En: "I should have listened to you," Sivert admitted.Nb: Katrine nølte, men smilte svakt.En: Katrine hesitated but smiled faintly.Nb: "Kanskje, men vi klarte det sammen," svarte hun.En: "Maybe, but we made it together," she replied.Nb: De visste nå at hverken eventyrlyst eller forsiktighet alene ville hjelpe dem overvinne slik en utfordring.En: They now knew that neither adventurousness nor caution alone would help them overcome such a challenge.Nb: De måtte kombinere begge.En: They had to combine both.Nb: Etter flere timer, da stormen endelig roet seg, krøp de ut av hulen.En: After several hours, when the storm finally subsided, they crawled out of the cave.Nb: Skyene begynte å skjære av solstråler igjen.En: The clouds began to let through rays of sunshine again.Nb: "Vi klarte det," sa Katrine med et lettelsens sukk.En: "We made it," Katrine said with a sigh of relief.Nb: Sivert nikket, takknemlig for at de var trygge og for den lærdommen naturen hadde gitt dem.En: Sivert nodded, grateful that they were safe and for the lesson nature had taught them.Nb: Sammen gikk de ned fra fjellklippen, klar for flere eventyr, men alltid med hverandres styrker i tankene.En: Together, they descended from the cliff, ready for more adventures but always keeping each other's strengths in mind. Vocabulary Words:majestic: majestetiskecliff: klippenthreatening: truendesafety: sikkerhetcautious: forsiktigeadventure: eventyrskeptical: skeptiskchallenging: utfordringoptimistically: optimistiskviolently: voldsomthesitated: nølterumble: braketthunder: tordenpaused: stoppetunsure: usikkerlashed: pisketshelter: tilfluktsstedshielded: ga lywrath: vredeadmitted: tillitsfulltcombine: kombinerecrawled: krøpsubsided: roetdescended: gikk nedrelief: lettelsenschallenge: utfordringadventurousness: eventyrlystswayed: svaietexcursion: tursummit: toppen

Tänk att man får leva just nu i detta otroliga tidevarv när så mycket händer. Och tänk att man får tillhöra en generation som fattat saker som andra inte fattar. För så måste det väl vara, eller? Veckans avsnitt handlar om kronocentrism – tankefelet som gör att vi tänker på vår egen tid som extra speciell och vår egen generation som överlägsen på olika sätt.Klipp:7.45 Francis Fukuyama on the End of History12.13 Svar Direkt 1984 Sivert Öholm22.46 My Generation - Oasis28.54  "The Most Dangerous Time" in History (Jamie Dimon)Redigering: Peter Malmqvist.Kontakta oss på dummamanniskor@gmail.com. Vill du slippa reklamen? Prenumerera på Dumma Människor för 19 kr/månaden (ink moms). https://plus.acast.com/s/dummamanniskor. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Programleiar Davy Wathne og fotballekspert Lars Bakkerud har besøk av Brann sine nye kaptein, Fredrik Pallesen Knudsen. Kva betyr det å ha ein ekte bygut som leiar, og kva ved Sivert kjem han til å sakna? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Andreas og Sivert oppsummerer en seier mot Manchester United i Pre season hvor flere Hale End gutter får løpe fra seg litt, snakker rundt et Smith Rowe salg, og presenterer interesse rundt Mikel Merino. Hva vil en 6'er signering by på for Artetas Arsenal? Blir det en overlast av midtbanespillere? Videre diskuteres alt fra flere signeringer, Live show på Carls, Reiss Nelson exit og en brennhet Jakob Dunsby i Sandefjord. Husk Saka kan ikke spille alt. God lyttSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sommerkveld i fellesferien er utgangspunktet for en prat mellom Andreas og Sivert om ståa i Arsenal inn mot pre season. Laglista til USA blir presentert, vi titter på mulighetene for en spansk overgangsdobbel i Mikel Merino og Nico Williams, leter etter en ny arbeidsgiver for Ramsdale, og generelt nyter å nerde litt Arsenal sammen igjen. Ellers har vi slått Orient i treningskamp og vurderer hvorvidt EM-gutta er tilbake til første serierunde. Dessuten blir taxinæringen passelig hyllet. God sommer og god lyttSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello!   Another mini episode can mean only one thing... That's right, the Dons have made another signing, this time in the form of Norwegian midfielder, Sivert Heltne Nilsen who reunites himself with Jimmy Thelin at Pittodrie following his move from SK Brann.   Gary is joined by former Queen's Park, St. Johnstone, Queen of the South & Falkirk player and now Norwegian footballing aficionado, David Weatherson, to get the low-down on our latest signing!    Keep us fueled for future episodes by buying us a beer or coffee over at - https://ko-fi.com/abzfootballpodcast   Follow us on our social media channels:-   Twitter - @AbzPodcast Facebook - @ABZFootballPodcast Instagram - @abzfootballpodcast

Vi byr på et Riccardo Calafiori-dypdykk, og får særdeles kyndig bistand fra Serie A-kommentator Vegard Aulstad fra VG. Den italienske EM-sensasjonen nærmer seg N5, og Vegard gir oss en innføring i spilleren Calafiori, og byr på innblikk i rollen hans i Bologna, og den spesielle veien mot toppen. Kneskaden, Mourinho-vrakingen og remontandaen under Thiago Motta. Vi tar hele historien. I tillegg ser vi nærmere på nøkkeltall, mens Vegard skryter uhemmet av italienerens anvendelighet. Hvilken rolle er han tiltenkt? Kan han spille både back og sweeper? Og hvor komfortabel er han med ball høyt i banen? Kan han forsvare egen boks som Peak Holdini? Til slutt kjører Magnus og Sivert en liten prat om øvrig aktuelt Arsenal-stoff, hvor Bukayo Sakas rørende revansj blir fyldig omtalt.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Espen har vært borte en stund, men nå er han endelig tilbake. Han tar med Sivert Eimhjellen og Snorre Monsson. Det blir prat om reality-TV, Siverts vanskeligheter, rare karakterer og mat.Produsent/Foto/Klipp: Kasper BuggeEn Juicy producy

I episode # 175 av Terrengsykkelpodden - Treningskompasset tar vi en prat med Sivert Ekroll som debuterte i U23 klassen i verdenscupen i Nove Mesto. Hvordan var det å konkurrere mot noen av verdens mest lovende terrengsyklister? Vi i podcasten har syklet Finnskogkureren og har fokus på dette rittet. Vi tar også en prat med vinner av kvinneklassen Thrude Natholmen og vinner av herreklassen Steffan Hartz Repshus. Vi ønsker våre lyttere en god lytteropplevelse

Sivert Eimhjellen er stand-up komiker. Han angrer på mye som han skulle ønske at han ikke hadde gjort, og pleier å være åpen og ærlig om angeren sin i stedet for å late som ingenting. Vi snakker bl.a. om å ikke vite hvem noen som helst er, hvor vanskelig det er å være podcastløs, for behovet for å snakke er så kraftig, men at det heldigvis har løst seg nå, om den store felles lidenskapen for matlaging, men ikke ville lage mat for mange mennesker, men agendaen om å lære nye retter på andres kostnad, å ha fått sparken fra flere restauranter, og at han kan bære nag til mange, den irriterende trangen folk har til at programledere skal være så kritiske, at han synes at judosatsingen var bortkastet, at faren hans overreagerer på helt vanlige ting og en god del om å ikke kjenne seg igjen alt det stand-up komikere lirer av seg, om å møte heltene sine, å plutselig måtte dele fornavnet sitt med flere og om å ikke ville la seg overmedisineres for psykiske lidelser.Programleder: Sivert MoeSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/anger. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I have to tell you, when it comes to growing my business, one of the most impactful things that I have done is work on improving my own mindset. And that is maybe a funny thing to say because it's not something super easy to quantify. You can't look at the data on a spreadsheet and see how things have changed. But I promise you, when I started focusing on managing my own mindset and putting into place some of the strategies that Mikey Sivert and I talk about in today's episode, I saw such a change in the way I treat my business, the risks I'm willing to take, the way that I branch out and try new things, and all of that boils down to things that end up fueling my business and helping me to grow. 02:22 - How Mikey's passion for helping others with overcoming imposter syndrome began05:21 - The importance of mindset in the overall success of our businesses as entrepreneurs11:23 - Defining imposter syndrome and signs you might see in your own lives13:36 - How failure is one of the best tools to defeat imposter syndrome17:56 - Strategies and techniques to help people overcome their imposter syndromeLinks & Resources:Mindset Masters Membership - Listeners can get 20% off an annual membership with the code SAVVY24 OR by using this link: https://mikeysivert.thrivecart.com/tpt-mindset/?coupon=SAVVY24Opt-In: Affirmations for TPT SellersFollow Mikey on Instagram @centeredteachersellersEpisode 76, How To Work On Your Business, Not Just In It: A Chat With Laura KåmarkFollow me on Instagram @kristendoyle.co Join my private Facebook community: Savvy Teacher SellersMore resources for growing your TPT businessRate & review The Savvy Teacher Seller on Apple Podcasts Show Notes:  https://kristendoyle.co/episode99

Gutta har funnet en ny SivertEn Juicy Producy

Vi skal ha nytt liveshow på Carls 19. Mai!!! Mye har også skjedd i Arsenal-land siden forrige innspilling og vi har mer enn nok å prate om. Sivert serverer reisebrev fra München, og forteller samtidig om møte med en helt unik Arsenal supporter vi unner sølvtøy denne sesongen; og vi reflekterer ellers rundt CL-exiten vår. Videre svarte Arsenal på tiltale borte mot Wolves, og befester igjen sin posisjon på toppen av Premier League. Vi ser på ett genialt grep Arteta gjør kvarteret før slutt som langt på vei vant oss kampen, oppsummerer 3-poengeren, svarer på lytterspørsmål, og vender snuta mot Chelsea på tirsdag. God lytt!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Musiker og programleder Sivert Moe er på besøk hos Mette Alstad. Han har drevet podkasten Anger snart 7 år, der han snakker med kjente og mindre kjente folk om deres forhold til anger. Vi snakker om hvordan det er å intervjue en ny person i uka i så lang tid. Hva har han lært? Hvorfor gidder han? Og hva er hans eget forhold til anger? Koseprat med en fin fyr.

To av mine absolutte favorittkomikere er i stuen, ble utrolig hyggelig, det.

Den gamle judomesteren, nå kongen av air fryers er innom for andre gang. Meget god prat

Sivert og Andreas skjønner omtrent ikke hva som skjer. 11-0 i målforskjell siste to legger grobunn for en samtale hvor de lengre linjene trekkes. Hvor bra er dette Arsenal laget? Er ligatittel fremdeles en fjern tanke som tilhører positivistene? Vi skal også ut i Champions League utslagsrundene for første gang på en mannsalder denne uken, og ser ikke helt hvilket lag i fotballeuropa som stopper dette godstoget. Er 11'eren Arteta har mønstret de siste kampene så velfungerende at det er umulig å argumentere inn endringer? Vi fikk inn et berg av lytterinnspill og svarte mange. Ble rett og slett en nydelig Arsenalprat. Denne utgaven av Arsenal, den er helt utrolig. Måtte det vare.

Dagens gjest i Abrahamsen Show er Sivert Eimhjellen. Det dykkes inn i bakgrunnen hans i Judo, journalistikk og terror-ekspert.en Juicy Producy

Sivert sin mamma har bursdag. Seb sin pappa har bursdag. Tallak er fortsatt på sopp. Kontakt: majonesmafiaen@gmail.com en Juicy Producy

Sivert har holdt seg unna alkohol i fire dager og er sur. Sebastian elsker å jobbe i barnehage. Tallak husker da han ble fingret for å sjekke ryggen. Kontakt: majonesmafiaen@gmail.comen Juicy Producy

Sivert er forsinket Kontakt: majonesmafiaen@gmail.comen Juicy Producy

Efter at have vibet i årevis over de gale franskmænds indtog på den internationale løbescene får redaktionen endelig taget sig sammen til at smutte forbi Gl. Kongevej på Vesterbro, hvor selveste Distance Athletics har valgt at åbne deres kun 4. butik i verden.  Under afbrænding af helligt træ og indtagelse af hvedeøl med rosésmag tales der om ambitionerne for det kommende år, de bedste nichebrands p.t. , Keelys juleaften og meget andet.

Sebastian er favoritten. Sivert har fått monopol. Tallak har med tunge.Kontakt: majonesmafiaen@gmail.comen Juicy Producy

I dag har vi bl.a. sekser-jagt på programmet, vi kigger på det hotte Kvistgaarden-rygte - og så kan FCN ende med at have tjent næsten 300 millioner transferkroner på en uge.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I dag har vi bl.a. sekser-jagt på programmet, vi kigger på det hotte Kvistgaarden-rygte - og så kan FCN ende med at have tjent næsten 300 millioner transferkroner på en uge.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Во петокот на 09.06.23 се случи 12 издание на Engage конференцијата каде што покрај одличните говорници вечерта имавме прилика (foookin weather wasn't on our side, but it was incredible at the end) да ги слушнеме најновите бендови на сцената (Niandra, Rend, Sivert, The Ooz) како и добро познатите Zanadu и КЕМ. Иако вечерта планирав од сите бендови да земам изјави и да направам еден podcast за целиот take over на stage-от во последен момент решив да се препуштам да уживам во целиот настан што макотрпно го работевме со другарите од Радио МОФ / МОФ и Гола Планина изминатиов период. Ќе се обидам да ги поканам сите бендови на AM Шоу да правиме муабет во студио. На 12.06.2023 соговорници ми беа Занаду или Карло (вокал и гитара), Андреј (бас), Иван (тапани) и Марко на гитара кои што минатата година го издадоа својот албум Соништа од кој што имам неколку фаворити. Зборувавме за нивната музика, од каде инспирацијата за текстовите, што слушаат и кои се идните нивни планови. Слушавме музика од: King Garbage - Lost In The Sauce Zanadu - Заедно Leron Thomas - Role Play (Radio Edit) [feat. Bilal] Kris Tidjan - Feel the Love Zanadu - Вистина Fatima - Family Koncept Jack$on - Lies U Tell feat. Mach-Hommy Zanadu - Соништа Mellow - Shinda Shima Zanadu - Предвечерен спектар XARAKIRI - Sprotivniot Kraj Се слушаме наредниот понеделник во 10:00 на www.radiomof.mk/radio на #celebratelifepodcast и огромна благодарност до сите што го посетивте #engagemk gathering-от

Stikkord for denne episoden er politisk journalistikk, påkjørsel i Steinkjer sentrum og - et frieri. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Kevin Heffernan is 1/5 of the comedy group Broken Lizard and has made cult classics like Super Troopers, Beerfest, Club Dread, and the upcoming Quasi out on Hulu on 4/20. Kevin is also the Showrunner of the hit sitcom Tacoma FD on TruTV and streaming on HBOMax.Show NotesKevin Heffernan on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/heffernanrules/Kevin Heffernan on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0373571/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptKevin Heffernan:That meeting that we first had with you guys. Yeah. And we, we were at Dave, we were at we were at the three Arts offices. Yep. AndAnd I remember this cuz I was like, you know, let me and I, and you know, maybe you've come to realize this, but let, and I were, were a little bit more insecure about our knowledge about how to make a TV show cuz we hadn't done it before. Right. And and I remember I kept in the meeting, we would have conversations like, he would keep saying things like well I don't know. Cause we only make movies, you know, I don't know. Cause he's gonna make movies. Right. I kept saying that. And what I was trying to say was, I don't know anything about tv. Right. But your partner Sivert, he, he threw that back in my face at one point. He does. He said, but I don't know. Cause I only make TV, you know. Oh my God. Thought was the funniest fucking thing. I thought it was so fucking funny. Michael Jamin:Oh, thank God he didn't take the meeting.You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters Need to Hear This, the podcast. I got another great guest for you everyone. Hope everyone's sitting down. It's Kevin Heffernan. He's also my boss, so I'm gonna be extra nice for this. But IKevin Heffernan:Like to think we're coworkers, Mike. Well,Michael Jamin:He likes to say that, but meanwhile he makes him, makes me bring him lunch. I like to and rub his feet while he eats it. I like toKevin Heffernan:But then you get somebody, you get somebody younger to bring you lunch to bring Correct. Isn't that the way it works?Michael Jamin:And rub my feet. Yes. Right. Just kickKevin Heffernan:It down.Michael Jamin:Fine. Kevin, let me give you a proper introduction for those. Okay. Who never, ever heard of you. First of all, he's the star and showrunner of Tacoma fd. We're in season four. We just finished season four right now. But also you may know him from from a million million movies. Supert Trooper. Supert Trooper Two Club, dread Slam and Salmon Beer Fest. Quai he's one of the founding members of, and I'm of Broken Lizard, which is a comedy troop. And he's also an actor. Everyone, please welcome to the show, Kevin Heffernan. Ron, can I applaud? You should definitely applaud, dude. Thank you so much. I, I have to say, and I've said this to you many times publicly, but I gotta say it, that everyone is listening. I always give you and Lemi a lot, so much credit for what you guys have done because like, the way I see my career, I feel like, I guess I'm like a Hollywood insider in the sense that I got hired by someone to be on a show and then I rose up the ranks. And then about halfway through my career, I noticed I was no longer working for Hollywood Insiders. I was working for basically Hollywood outsiders. People who made their own career and made themselves so desirable that Hollywood came to them and said, Hey, will you do stuff for us? And that's what I feel like you guys have done.Kevin Heffernan:Well, it's a little bit like I guess that's part of the, in front of the camera thing that gives you a little extra allure, I guess. I don't know. Or so, or a way to it does made,Michael Jamin:I think so. But when you started broken, you know, when you guys did your first broken lizard movie, you were just, you know, you guys did it on your own. Yes.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah.Michael Jamin:I mean, talk about that. How did you make that happen? You guys were just nobody's.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah, I mean, well we, we were a, you know, a group that was, I guess we were kind of self-contained. You know, a lot of people, they get out of school, whatever it is, and they, they kind of join some other entity whether it's, you know, some performance thing like the Groundlings or they go to a film school or whatever it is. And we just did it. Our, you know, we had five, well we had more, at the time it was like eight or nine folks. And then after we graduated from Colgate University, we went to New York and we started doing live shows and, and just doing everything soup to nuts. You know, we would, did did the acting and then directing, they're producing the editing and the writing and that, that's how kind of we cut our teeth in order to, you know, and then it was just kinda like, you know, Hey, let's make some short films. Let's, you knowMichael Jamin:Where were you showing these films?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. And then we would show the films during our live shows. So we would do, you know, sketch shows, you know, in New York City and the Village or whatever. And we'd haul this like 800 pound you know, 32 inch tv into the room. And, and then we would just shoot these short videos. And they're essentially designed to show while we were able, you know, gives us a chance to change costumes and stuff, you know what I mean? It was, oh, it was a chance for us to have a, have a costume change and then we would start showing these videos. And then those were the things that always seemed to be really popular.Michael Jamin:And these were in like, small venues, like how big, how many seats?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah, I don't know. 80, you know, would,Michael Jamin:And how would you get people to show up?Kevin Heffernan:Well, we, you know, we went to Colgate, which is kind of a, kind of a big drinking school. And so and a lot of people migrate, you know, when they, it's in upstate New York, so they'll graduate and they'll, they'll move down to New York City. So there was this network of people from our school who were kind of big drinkers and, and young and, and we just kind of put out the word and all the friends would come, you'd get, you know, 50 people in the room. And I remember after the first weekend, the, the place, we were doing a place called the Duplex, which I think is still there. It's in like Christopher or Sheridan Square or something like that. Christopher Street. And the show would end and the bar, the guy who owned the club would walk in and the table would be full of empty beer bottles just full . And and he'd be so happy. And he kept offering us more, you know, gigs more nights or whatever. And it was basically cuz our friends came and they drank beer and they had laughs and, and were youMichael Jamin:Hitting the door? Or how, how were you charging?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah, yeah. We, well probably, we probably got some real shitty deal. You know, we probably had some horrible deal. I mean, it was like we were begging for stage time around town, you know? And and these guys, you know, let you start on a Monday night, you know, or whatever, whatever shitty time is, or, you know, Monday at 10 o'clock or whatever, you know, Uhhuh and do the show. And, and we'd get our friends to come and then it was Wednesday night, and then it was Friday night, and then it's, you know, Hey, you're doing the whole weekend. You know, and it kind of, kind of grew that way, but, and that was, and we learned to write sketches mm-hmm. when we were doing that, you know? And then did youMichael Jamin:Kind of, did you kind of learn in college though, when you were, you were writing sketches in college though?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah, we, we kind of self-taught. We, we, it was kind of later towards the end of our college careers where we started this comedy group. And my buddy Jay Chen Sekar, who's, you know, still in the,Michael Jamin:There he is. Oh, we're gonna plug that Quasi is the movie plugKevin Heffernan:That, but that's him. That's Jay ChenMichael Jamin:Important. That's the most important one. I've left that one out.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. But that's him. And then he had had some background in Chicago at the IO in Second City and things like that, doing improv. And always wanted to do a show at Colgate. And so he had gotten the opportunity through some student theater group. There was a guy who was like, Hey, why don't you put up a show? And he was like, ah, I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. And then ultimately, I think they gave him like 500 bucks, Uhhuh . And he decided to put together a group of people, and he and I were very close friends. And he knew that I was interested in something like that. And so we put together this group of folks, and it was probably like 15 people at that point in time and, and just started this comedy group. And we didn't know, like we didn't know how to do improv. We didn't know how to write sketches, we know any of that stuff. And it was just, JayMichael Jamin:Took one class, basically, and he's like, I'll, I'll teach you guys how to doKevin Heffernan:It. Well, he, he didn't, he wasn't even the teacher, you know, like he did. Yeah. Like, he did a, a summer, like likeGuys. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, I'll try this. And we were miserable. I mean, we were horrible. But the, the thing in, in colleges and, and you probably have the same thing, it's like, you know, I think a lot of comedy is, is is the, you have to laugh out of shared experience, right? So the audience says, Hey, I know that happened to me. You know, that's why they laugh, right? So at college, it's a very insular world that you can do that. So you can make fun of that professor and that security guard and that, you know, fraternity, sorority, whatever it is. And, and that's the thing that you learn to write and that everyone laughs at. And so that's how we started where you would just, you'd make fun of people on campus and people love it. And then you, in that way, you learn how to write and, and do characters and whatever, and Right.You know, whatever. We were all fans of Saturday Night Live and Monty Python and whatever. And I think, you know, the idea was let's just try to do that. And it was very simple because it was a, it's like given a wedding toast, you know? It's like, you know, everyone's on your side, right? Everyone wants to laugh together, the same thing. And, you know, we started doing these shows there, and they were just super popular because there was nothing like it there. And people were, were happy to see us make fun of, you know, that professor or that, butMichael Jamin:Then at some point though, you had to branch out to a larger audience, though.Kevin Heffernan:Well, that's the, that's the, the terrifying thing is we got to, we moved to New York City afterwards and realized you couldn't make fun of the dean or the professor or whatever. You had to figure out what the things are that more people would laugh at. And I think, you know, that's the little of a learning curve. But we did that, and then you just start writing sketches and, and we started making these videos. ButMichael Jamin:Then how did you still, how do you make this jump from, you know, selling tickets to friends, to selling tickets to strangers, basically?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. I, it's just, I guess it's just word of mouth is, is the way, is the way it happens. Where it's like, I, I, I remember, you know, people would bring their friends, you know, from high school and their other friends and whatever it is, and then all of a sudden you have a group of people who are into it, you know? And and then you'd have, you know, agents start to come and industry people start to show up. And really, theyMichael Jamin:Were trying to show up. You, they weren't, this is fascinating to me. So you didn't even invite them, they would just show up.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah, well, you know, I mean it was kind of a fun time in New York at the time where there was kind of these two, there are different movements that were kind of happening. And one of 'em was the independent film movement, which was, you know, big. It was the Kevin Smith and, and you know, that kind of stuff where you, everyone was making, you know, low budget films. And then it was also, you know, kind of the growth of the comedy group. Again, I guess, you know, where U C B was just, just starting up in New York. And there was another group called The State that was doing stuff in they were outta nyu and they were doing shows. And so there were different kind of like, there was kind of a lot of burgeoning kind of comedy groups that were kind of in that same era. And, you know, people catch on. There was a, you know, M T V wanted to make a sketch comedy show, and they started scouting all these comedy groups, and they picked this group, the state, and they made the, they made their comedy show. So there was a, you know, there were a lot of people out there that had an appetite for, for this kind of thing. And, and you know, we were trying to capitalize on him.Michael Jamin:And the whole time you str all you guys were struggling, but you, you were also attending law school at the sameKevin Heffernan:Time? I did. I went to law school. I, I I I was working at a law firm for, for a couple years out of school. And then, yeah, I went, I ended up gonna law school during the day. Right. And then we would do these comedy shows at night. And they never, they're very different worlds, you know, like, but I remember one time we were taking a tour of the courthouse with my law school class, Uhhuh . And somebody walked up to me who had seen the live show, Uhhuh , who was like, Hey, you are the comedian Kevin hen, da da da da. Not that I was famous anyway, but this guy just happened to be in, and everyone in my law school class has looked at me and like, who the fuck are you ? Like, they had no idea that I was, had that other thing going on. So. AndMichael Jamin:Did that change the way they looked at you after? Like, they,Kevin Heffernan:I think a little bit. I mean, I was, you know, I, I was not a, a great participant in the law school world. I was kind of a back bencher. I'd sit in the back row and I didn't really, I might crack a joke here and there. And so, but then, yeah, I think, I think they probably got a feeling of like, oh, maybe this is not his his highest priority, this law school thing. DidMichael Jamin:You, well, did you pa take the bar?Kevin Heffernan:I did, yeah. I took the bar. Yeah, I did. I we took the bar. Well, I graduated from law school, and then we made our, I graduated from May, and we were preparing to shoot the first feature film we ever made. We were preparing to shoot it in June. And so I started studying for the bar and I realized, oh, I can't do this. I can't do this stuff. And so I went to my dad and I was like, I'm not gonna take the bar exam. And he's like, what? Are you crazy? And I was like, you know, he goes, you get all, you're gonna get all through law school and you're not gonna take the party time. I was like, well, I'm gonna take it, but I'll take it, you know, six months from now or a year from now. Right. You're not gonna do that. And I said, I will, I will. And he said, you know, he said, that's insane. You don't take the ball down to the goal line and not cross into the goal. You know, youMichael Jamin:Do it, you figure you're in the New York Jets. That's how they,Kevin Heffernan:That's, that's right. You know, there's some people who just don't get in the end zone . And so I, and so we did it. So, but so we made the movie and then six months later I went back and I took the bar exam and I passed it. So,Michael Jamin:See, you're a good boy now, but how did you raise the money for the movie?Kevin Heffernan:Well, that, like I was saying before, that was that era of like, people were bankrolling movies on credit cards, you know, and it was like you know, Kevin Smith or whoever it was, they, you know, made clerks for $30,000 or whatever it was, you know what I mean? So we at the time, j Chan Sacar had taken a couple N Y U film classes, and he was very much into it. He also had got started working with this guy as a, as an intern at this office of this lawyer. His name was John Slots, who had went on to become this huge, you know, independent film, you know, movie producer, icon type of a guy. And he represented all those guys, the link laters and, you know, the Kevin Smiths and Rodriguez, all these guys are making these kind of, you know, el mariachi, you know, they're making these movies, you know. And so he got into his head like, let's try to do this. And so basically we went around and we charged, I think the movie we made was called Puddle Cruiser, which was about 250,000 bucks. And most of it was charged on credit cardsMichael Jamin:Between the five of you.Kevin Heffernan:Well, well, Jay did most of it. And then some of us did some stuff in, and then some, and people got like, some of their families kicking, you know, five grand here or whatever. But the thing with Jay was that, his name is Jay Chanter Sekar. And his parents were doctors. And for some reason, the credit card companies started to thought that maybe he was a doctor and they started sending him, they would send him these credit cards and, you know, he was a day, right? You'd get a credit card in the mail, you know what I mean? And you'd be like, ah, whatever. And you use it. And so he u you know, he just charged him up and but he,Michael Jamin:And he wasn't worried about like ever paying it back. I mean,Kevin Heffernan:You know, I, I think ultimately he probably was, but that's just what everybody was doing. Like, they were just putting the stuff on credit cards and that's what we did. And we, you know, charged the camera package on credit cards and we did all that stuff. HeMichael Jamin:Needed that much. That's a lot of money. I'm surprised you couldn't do for less.Kevin Heffernan:Well there are a couple things to it. Like, number one, we shot on 35 millimeter, right? Which was unusual. Cause that's a very expensive film format. And at the time, people were shooting 16 millimeter and other things, something called Super 16. They're shooting all these things. And but we wanted shoot on 35 just cuz we thought we could ha make the movie have more commercial appeal. Right. And so we did that. And and then also it's just, you know, a lot of those movies were kind of like the adventure of one man or whatever. And we had like, you know, we al it's always been our problem. We have five storylines with five guys and whatever. So the movie's always kind of expanded a little bit. But yeah, so we went up to Colgate University we had written a, a, a, a romantic comedy like set in a college.And we went up to Colgate University and we said, Hey, can we shoot this film? And we went, we made a big pitch to the dean, you know, former students, you know, doing this thing. And he said, Nope. And then he said, you're, you're not, you're, we're not gonna let you do it. And we said that, but that's crazy. He said, look I'm the guy who puts my name on this thing, and you know, you're gonna come here up here and make an animal house and then we're gonna look like assholes. And then, and so we're like, but we would never do that. You can read the script, blah, blah, blah. And so essentially what we did we went back and, and we told our friends, it's like, like I said earlier with the people we're all drinking, it's a very networky school.And we just reached out to everyone and we said, please reach out to this dean and tell 'em you support alumni's you know in the arts. You, you support alumni in the arts and that kind of thing. And it was the, it was the age of the fax machine. Mm-Hmm. . And they just, we gave out this guy's fax number and he just started getting, he got probably like a thousand fax from faxes from you know, alumni and wow. And finally he caved. He's like, okay, all right. You can do it. Just don't have the school's name anywhere in, in in the movie. Like, okay, what about insurance? You have to worry about that. Who, who is you? Yeah. Yeah. That's part, I mean, that's part of film. You know, you, you buy insurance. Okay. You paid for that wasn't, wasn't called.Okay. No, well, they wouldn't let us. They were very adamant about us, you know, using as little of their facility as possible. They, you know, we were hoping we, they would give us a dorm for us to stay in. They wouldn't do that. And we couldn't house anybody on the campus or any of that kind of stuff. So, but it's so what I, it's just so scrappy of you guys. It really is. It's just, yeah. Yeah. No, I I, it's totally scrappy and I, I give chance se a lot of credit for that. He, you know, he was very much in that camp of like you know, let's go make a movie however we can. And and we did. And, and you know, we didn't no idea what we were doing. And, and we didn't know where to put the camera.We didn't know any of that stuff. And we had, you know, we had some professional crew folks that came that we hired, you know, from New York City, and they came up there and, you know, the DP and the Grip and the gaffer were guys who were a little bit more experienced than we were. And and, and we just shot this thing. And then we didn't even know how to edit it. We've never, you know, edited a movie before and you just learned as you did it, man. And we did. So what we did, then we came back, we were and our buddy was a NYU film student. We would, he would sneak us in at night to the NYU film department, and we would use the edit machines. And at the time, at the beginning it was Steam Back. So it was like literally the film, you would put the film and cut the film. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, don't do that anymore. But that, that, that was the end of that era. But we started cutting our films that way. And then, and then we turned, you know, on this particular movie called Puddle Cruiser, we moved over to computer editing, which was just starting then.Michael Jamin:So, wow. See what I, well, and I wanna talk about Quasi, which by the way, so Quasi Drops, this is your latest movie. It drops on four 20 on Marijuana Day Yeah. On Hulu. And everyone should go sit your, you know, whatever. It's, make sure you watch this movieKevin Heffernan:Marijuana Day,Michael Jamin:But, well, I saw, I don't even know how much you changed cuz I went to a, a screening of it, what was it, a year ago? How long was that?Kevin Heffernan:It was yeah, it was March. It was March. Wow. Of of 20 21, 2 20 22.Michael Jamin:And maybe there was, was there maybe a couple hundred people who went to that? Who Yeah,Kevin Heffernan:We, we you know, we like to do that, to do the test screens to see where the laughs are or whatever. And we got about 200 folks. We did a screening room, screening Room, Warner Brothers, and then and itMichael Jamin:Went great. Every, I mean, everyone was laughing, everyone. So I'm, yeah. I don't even know howKevin Heffernan:Much, which is terrifying because you know, that the movie, and you saw that version is, that's the, like, that was like the two hour plus cut. Right. You know, and that's when you just, you know, you throw it out there and just see what hits what sticks, you know, andMichael Jamin:And aKevin Heffernan:Lot did it with that one. And then since that version you saw mm-hmm. , you know, we've been through doing test screenings. We get notes from everybody at the studio, all that kind of business, and we've whittled away another half an hour.Michael Jamin:Do you, do you find the Oh, really took a half hour? You finding you have more notes the more, the bigger the budget or No?Kevin Heffernan:No, I don't think so. I mean, there's more fear, there's no question about that. You know, we, we, we, but we've never kind of like really kind of moved in that world a little bit. You know, we, we, we were very, we made, we remade the Dukes of Hazard, we did the Dukes of Hazard movies for Warner Brothers. That was like the biggest thing that we did budget wise, where that's like, you're spending 60, 70, 80 million and then all the decisions become very precious and, and very much my committee. But for us, I think the beauty is we've always functioned at a budget level where people kind of leave you alone. Right. You know, like, they might get adamant about something or whatever. You know, we, we had a few things on this movie that they were, they felt very strongly about. And we, you know, we'll go back and forth, but for the most part, you know, we've never been in that horrible situation of, youMichael Jamin:Know, t Sibert and I, we, we prefer the world of low budget for that reason. Yeah. Do you guys feel the same way?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. I mean, you, you just kind of fly under the radar screen. You know, it's like you know, when, when we made the movie Beer Fest, you know, we made it at Warner Brothers and at the same time they were making like the first like, huge Superman reboot and, you know, the budget of our movie was like a week of catering, you know? Yeah. On that Superman movie. And they were so worried about that stuff that they don't, they don't care. Not they don't care, but they just, you're not a high priority. So like, they do yourMichael Jamin:Thing. Bigger problems. Yeah. One of the fun things that I love, I I by watch 'em all your movies and it's, I, I don't know if you know, if you think about this, but to me it's like fun to see the same guys playing different roles, often two different parts in the same movie. And it's just, I don't know, do you, are you aware of how much like joy that gives Keep people?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah, no, I mean, we love it cuz like, we'll do that too. Like when we would go from movie to movie and intentionally try to put guys into different kinds of characters, Uhhuh, , you know, and, and, and that was the reason why. Cause we thought it was so fun to see guys do different things. I mean, this movie's a great example because we do play multiple parts and guys play different kind of characters. But after we shot Supert Troopers, like for example like Jay Chanter Sekar who directed it, you know, and it was a hard thing. It's a hard thing to direct a movie, you know, it was just kind of for a million bucks and whatever, and you're always, you know, fighting the clock and you're always fighting whatever. And so he would always kind of get dower at times, you know, and, and we'd have to remind him in his performance, Hey man, pick it up.You know, we're doing a comedy, don't worry about that. Put that shit behind you. Whatever. Uhhuh . And so after Supert Troopers, you know, his character is a very straight kind of guy. We made a movie called Club Dread, and it was like, let's go in the opposite direction. And we intentionally wrote Jay as like a Ponzi, British raaf, Farian tennis player, Uhhuh . And so with the intention of like, let's give him a character that's completely opposite of what he was. Right. And it ends up having the effect of being very cool, I think for people who like the movies cuz they see people play different kinds of characters, you know,Michael Jamin:But how do you guys even do that with five, because you have five equal partners writing. Like how do you decide who comes, is one person pitching an idea? How do you get five people on board to do anything?Kevin Heffernan:It's, it's pretty hard. I think it's, I think we're lucky that we started doing it together in college. Probably like, if, if we had been assembled like in, you know, at age 35 or whatever, never fucking made, it was like, you know, it's like putting a like a, like a like the monkeys together or something, or whatever, you know what I mean? I, I don't know that we would ever have been able to do that. Cuz yeah, there's fights and whatever, but I I I think it's really always come out of making each other laugh. And if, and if the rest of the guys laugh, then you're like, oh, okay. I I think that's, and you know, and, and the cra fights, you know, from casting point of view, we started getting into this practice and we did it from Super Troopers on where, for the most part, we don't cast the movie when we're writing it. And we don't cast the movie till way later in the game because you, you find out that, you know, if you know what the part you're playing, then you kind of start writing for yourself and your own part. But if you don't know, then you write for everybody. Right?Michael Jamin:Oh, is that right? So, yeah.Kevin Heffernan:And so we made a very conscious effort early on that we would push, like, there, there are sometimes now like movie quasi, you know Lemi, we knew Lemi was gonna be the title character, but I think most of our movies, it's like we wait till later in the game after the script has gone through multiple drafts, and then we cast it. AndMichael Jamin:Then how do you decide who, I mean, how do you, what if I wanna be theKevin Heffernan:Whatever that happens too. I mean, we, we I remember Super Troopers, you know, we wrote it, we wrote Mel multiple drafts. It was with many different companies and there are many different places, and we never really cast it. And then we decided we would sit down and we, the five of us, we sat down at a table and everyone read the different parts. And then it was a conversation. It's like, you know, I think, I think you're that guy, you know? And and luckily there was never a, a big fight. And then now it's like, you know, like in the movie quasi, there's a couple characters and it was like, Hey, I thought, you know, soda, you should be that guy and Jay should be this guy. And they were like, nah, no, you know, I think he'd be much better at that guy. You know, and they were right. You know, so it was like, it kind of, it's the mindset of what's doing best for the movie, which is nice. Right. right. And so we've never really gotten into those big fights because we just cast it later, you know? Is thereMichael Jamin:A procedure though, when you guys do? Is there like a vote? Or like, how do you, how do you agree to settle shit?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah, I mean, I think like, usually it's, I guess it's the director who's kind of settles it, but it, it, no, it's just, it's just by side who's the director by democracy , becauseMichael Jamin:You guys have also also, you know, swapped sometimes, you know, you direct sometimes, you know, sometimes Jay directs andKevin Heffernan:Yeah. I mean, I guess we've done like seven seven kind of proper broken legend movies and he's directed five of them. Yeah. And I've done two of themMichael Jamin:Now. Since you've done two, I don't know why you do two. Isn't it exhausting? I mean it's, it's exhaust, it's a full-time job being a director, but then to also act Yeah. It's, it's twice as exhausting.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. It's, it's, it is kind of exhausting. And you know, the funny thing on this movie I played two characters. We all played two characters, right? Mm-Hmm. . And there's, there was some days where my two characters were having scenes with each other. Yeah. And like, you're standing there and you're like, you're acting against yourself and you're directing the thing. Yeah. And it was just like, you're like, what the fuck? Like, your head's gonna fucking explode. You're like, what am I doing here? ? And like, the beauty of it is we have these five guys, we have the support thing. And so Lemi will be there, Chan Sa I'll be there and they'll be like, Hey, you know, you should look, look out for this or whatever. You know, there's a good support group where Right. Luckily you're not, you're not hanging out there alone.Michael Jamin:And you've directed many episodes of Tacoma FD Do, how much do you, you know, what do you, what do you think, do you, what is your, what do you prefer writing, directing, acting? Do you have a preference?Kevin Heffernan:I don't know. I, I always think of it as like as like the seasons, you know, it's like whenever it's winter you want it to be summer, or whenever it's summer you wanna be winter. Yeah. Like, I always feel that way. Like whenever I'm doing one of the jobs, I'm like, God, I wish I was writing right now. Yeah. . But I mean, I think that's the beauty of the, the hyphen thing. It's like, you know, it's like you know, I just got through the editing process, right? And then which is a whole thing. And, and, and then by the, we've been doing six months and then by the end of that you're like, Ugh. And now you know, we're working on a project with you mm-hmm. , and we're working on a project with the Republican lizard guys. And you start moving back into the writing mode and you're like, oh, thank God this is fucking great. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And then whatever, three months from now they're like, God, I wish I was shooting. You know, ,Michael Jamin:It's a shooting is ex especially being directory is exhausting. You gotta be the first one there and the last one out.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. And then you gotta prepare for the next day. You gotta prepare. You should, at least you should, you know.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Kevin Heffernan:You know, but a again, like, you know, part of it that's nice is the all-encompassing kind of thing of it where it's like I don't necessarily have to expend all the director energy directing an actor mm-hmm. , because I'm doing it. And I don't have to spend, I don't spend a lot of energy translating between a writer and a director and an actor. Which also is a, I think a lot of a director's job is these kind of like interpersonal mm-hmm. , you know, figuring out how to do that because we kind of do it all, you know, so there's something kind of nice to that, you know.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, I guess, I mean, and I, again, I give you a lot of credit. It's cuz it'sKevin Heffernan:Well, but like, when you, when you're having a problem on the set, for example, right? Mm-Hmm. and then you know, some scenes not working or whatever it is, and you're in the middle of it as the actor writer and the director, you just kind of cart blanche to, to try to fix it. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's not like you have to bring a committee together to try to fix something, you know? Right. There's something nice to that there's something nice to that.Michael Jamin:Do you, now, this Tacoma was pretty much your first was your, was it was your first TV venture, but now, you know, I know, I, I knowKevin Heffernan:How it was. Yeah. I mean, it was the first one that went, you know, like Yeah. The thing is that Lemy and I, you know, for many years, and you know, this, I mean, for many years we, we had been making TV or developing TV shows and selling scripts and Yeah. And you can go there. I mean, I think we sold a different script, like something like eight years in a row mm-hmm. Into, into TV season, you know what I mean? Right. And they just don't go, they don't go, they don't go for whatever reason. You know, like I remember one year we sold one to I think it was B, c and we were so excited about it, and then we found out that they bought 80 scripts. Oh, . Yes. And they're, and they're gonna shoot three of them. Right. Right. And what we found out was that these networks a lot of times will just kind of preemtively buy scripts Yeah. In order to be able to control the market. And, and it doesn't cost them a lot just to have a bunch of things you know, options. Yeah. And then, you know, you're, oh fuck. So I, I think as time went on, we were trying to figure out like, what's, how do you get to the next step? Like how do you write the TV script that they're gonna shoot?Michael Jamin:Yeah.Kevin Heffernan:You know? Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:, what did you figure out? I mean,Kevin Heffernan:Well, it, it's partly who you do business with. So like when we pitched com, we pitched everybody, we pitched the big networks and the little networks and you know, the one that they were the most excited about and the most that you got the vibe that this, they're gonna shoot, this thing was true tv.Michael Jamin:Right.Kevin Heffernan:And, you know, we could have sold it to Fox or whoever it is, but we knew that those people were gonna shoot it. And that's the battle.Michael Jamin:They told you that. I mean, some orKevin Heffernan:Essentially, I mean, it's like we, you can also know, like, you can say, you can find out how many they buy. Right. And out of those, how many they shoot, and out of those, how many get on the air and, and somebody like True who's a smaller network, they can't go out and buy 80 scripts. You know what I mean? Right. So what they do is they'll, they'll buy three scripts and you know that you have a damn good chance if it's three scripts, you know,Michael Jamin:We would, when we sold shows back on network, you'd be optimistic at first, and then you'd read in the trades what someone else sold the show, maybe with some actor attach or director. And you'd go, all right, that's one less slot. You, you just knew it, you just knew that's one less thought to buy. Yeah.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. And then you get to things like, let me and I were talk about this morning, we were like trying to remember, there was a a, we sold a script one year about stay-at-home dads. Right. I think it was called Kept Men and the Stay-Home Dads. And our wives had great jobs and we, we would just stay at home, take care of the kids, whatever. And it's an idea that everyone has had. And I remember we, we sold it somewhere, I can't remember, it was N B C or B ABC or whatever it was. And then we found out, I think it was B nbc, we found out that there were three other stay-at-home dads scripts that had sold Uhhuh to nbc. And then we found out that like, you know, one of the producers was Jimmy Fallon, one of the producers was Ellen, you know, one of the, it was, you know, whoever. And you knew then that your fortunes are getting, you know, less favorable. Yeah. And then ultimately they pick one of those, you know, they're an nbc they're gonna pick the Jimmy Fallon project mm-hmm. . Cause Jimmy Fon is one of their superstars. And, and, and, and you know, so your, your discouragement kind of goes down as he gone. But that was always the thing was like, how do you get from the point where you sell that script to you make that script, which is really why we're in this business.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. And and your eyes are higher. Well, it's, it's, so, it's, I was, I would, I was gonna say your eyes are higher up getting a TV show made than a movie, but you've gotten a movies made. So what am I doing? Yeah.Kevin Heffernan:I mean, I, I guess it depends on what the market has been. I mean, they're just, sometimes, I, I only say that because I feel like it's shifting a little bit again now, but there's certainly, you know, when the streamers came in on top of the broadcast people, there were more opportunities, I feel like mm-hmm. . And at that point the films were shrinking for a number of reasons, just that it's so expensive to put a movie out. Yeah. you know, that, that as the movie companies get bigger they will not take chances on certain comedies. You know, like we, when we made Beer Fest at Warner Brothers, we were like, why don't you guys just make a shitload of, you know, 15 million comedies and try to make a lot of money outta 'em? And then cuz they said, cuz we'll make one Harry Potter and it'll make more money than 115 million comedies. Right. Everyone'sMichael Jamin:Swinging for theKevin Heffernan:Home run. Yeah. And, and that's why, and that's what we'll do. And so there was a lot of that vibe. So I think that's part of why, you know, we were like, you know, let's take a shot at tv. There's a, there's a better home for comedy. You know, at that point, I think. Yeah. and it, and it was, you know, and, and when we sent up for True tv, you know, their, their motto has kind of changed. But at the time they were trying to build a comedy network and they had Andrea Savage and Amy Sedaris and, you know, Bobcat Golf Weight and all these guys had shows. Yeah. And they were, that they were trying to make these comedy shows. So it seemed like a good, a good fit for us.Michael Jamin:And I had a question, I just now now I just lost it, but, oh, I was gonna say. So, but you also have acted on other, you've guest art on plenty other, on other shows, Goldberg, but Yeah. Do you, but do you prefer, like, do you have a preference even, I don't know, doing other people's material, your material? Do you care at all?Kevin Heffernan:I, I, I don't mind people's material, but I love writing our material and doing our material. You know, it's like, it's like the, it's like the standup thing. It's like, you know, the beauty of doing standup is that you can write a joke and then perform the joke and get the reaction from the crowd. I, I kind of feel the same way about performing our own material, you know?Michael Jamin:But I know you and you guys used to do a lot of performing standup, but you don't, you haven't done that in quite a while and you don't, what's the plan? Do you miss that at all or what?Kevin Heffernan:Sometimes I do. Sometimes I do. You know, I think it was something that we I mean some of the guys in our group have a background like, you know, chance Sakar has, you know, stand background or whatever. But I had never had it really. And then it was that last, it was the last writer strike whatever, 2008, 2009, whatever was that, when was that? Like,Michael Jamin:It was 2008. What? Yeah. What did you guys do during that?Kevin Heffernan:Well, we were, you know, we had made our movie of Slam and Salmon and we had to make it independently cuz no studios were buying. And then, you know, nobody's making a TV shows. We couldn't sell anything. We couldn't write anything. And so we had one of these kind of live standup agents who was like, look, you guys have notoriety now. You can go around and do a show, you know? Yeah. And, and make money. You know. And so it was like, oh, okay. And so we put together this show in, I think it was 2008 or 2009, you know, come in, in the strike. And we went on tour and we did whatever, I, I can't remember, we did like 20 or 30 show cities or whatever it was. And and it was like it, it, it, it kind of morphed over time.But it was like, you know, we would put our Supert Troopers uniforms on and go do a supert trooper sketch mm-hmm. . And then a guy would do, you know, 10 minutes of standup and then we'd do a beer fest sketch and then guys would do 10 minutes of standup and then whatever. And so I think that was when the vibe for live comedy for us kind of really grew. We were like, oh, this is great. This is cool. And there's an audience. Like there's a, there are fans of ours. It's not like we have to go Yeah. TheyMichael Jamin:Come see you. Yeah.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. Like we used to go and, you know, walk around Washington Square Park and hand out fucking postcards. Come see our show, come see our show come now. We don't have to do that. You know? So Isn't that amazing? That was nice. And so then that's why we got into standup cuz cuz we started doing that. And then I, I had never really done standup and I had a blast. And then it got to be the end of that tour. And then it was, the agent was like, does any of you guys, you guys still wanna go do some standup? I'll book you. And then lemme like, yeah, we'd love to. Let's do it. And so we went probably for eight or nine years we traveled.Michael Jamin:Now when you were doing this, were you literally on the road? Were you on the road the whole time? Were, were you fly back and forth to California?Kevin Heffernan:No, no. We were like you know, 40 year old guy standups, you know, it's like if we were the 20 year old standups, we would be like in a car driving around, but we would No, you'd go out, you'd do two weekends a month or whatever, you know, and you'd go out and you'd do, you know, a Thursday, Friday, Saturday showsMichael Jamin:And then flyKevin Heffernan:Back. And then fly back. Yeah. Yeah. And so but you know, probably eight or nine years we did it, you know, we would do, you know, I don't know, maybe 20 weekends in a year.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin, if you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.It's, it's so interesting. I again, cuz you guys are just like, when I hear so many times, you're like, people are like, well, how do I sell my screenplay? And my voice is always, you don't and just do what you're, build it yourself, do it. Stop asking for permission, and that's exactly what you guys did. You just did it.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah.Michael Jamin:You know?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. I mean, that's the same advice that we give people too. It's like, you know, and whatever the, the, the kind of the world changes a little and you know you know, there are different ways to do your own thing. You know, I mean, when we started, people didn't have camera phones or Right. , you could haveMichael Jamin:Made that movieKevin Heffernan:Equipment or you know,Michael Jamin:You instead of 250,000 you could have made that movie Yeah. For a fraction of that. Right?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. Yeah. And, and so people, I think people do have that opportunity and, and, you know, they can go shoot a movie on their phone or whatever it is. And I mean, in that way, you, you at least learn how to write and act and where to put a camera and how maybe how to light something or whatever. Its Right. Right. but that, that's what we always say to people is, is do that. You know, write your own stuff and go do it.Michael Jamin:Do you find, because I mean, I'm jumping around here, but you ob you collaborate a lot either with five or four other guys, or sometimes you work with Lemy or with the writing set. Is it, you know, do you find that you don't, that you know, you don't really get to use your voice that you're always, it's, it's more collaborative? Do you miss or do you crave doing something just with your own voice or anything?Kevin Heffernan:I don't know. I never thought about that. No, I don't think so. No. I like, I like the collaboration thing. Right. I, I don't, I mean, whatever we've worked together for, what, four years now? I don't, I'm not super precious. I, I, and I, I I'm not like a dig my heels in guy I don't think. Maybe I am, maybe you'll tell me differently. But I think, you know, I think I, I, I like, I love getting, you know, seeing other people write some good jokes and whatever. Right, right. It's a, and I think it's probably born out of the fact that I've always been in a group, you know, and I've always been with these five, you know, I was with these five guys and, you know, you learn the value of having other people's perspectives and whatever. So I, I don't know. I, you know, I like standup. I, I, I really enjoyed it and it was fun and it was fun to go and tell stories and whatever, but I, you know, I don't know if there's something I I like more about, probably about the TV or movie worldMichael Jamin:Because even directing, like as a showrunner, you could, you still have ultimate the final say on anything. So if you had someone else direct, you do, I know you have other people direct episodes, but I wonder like, you know, why, I guess why, you know, what's the, what's the appeal of doing it yourself when you still have ultimate control anyway?Kevin Heffernan:Right. Right. You mean like, why not have more people?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean I, no, I, IKevin Heffernan:Just think, well that's, that's, youMichael Jamin:Know, exhausting. It is. That's,Kevin Heffernan:That's O C D and control and control issues, Michael.Michael Jamin:Oh, so that's why you, cuz you really want, you just want to get it done. YouKevin Heffernan:Well, no, that's what my kids will say. They'll say that I have control issues. That's right. May, that may be the case that I, I like to do things myself, but,Michael Jamin:Oh, well. But, but, but that's what that kind of speaks to what I'm talking about is like, okay, well you're do you are getting your voice across cuz you ultimately making, well, you know, so many decisions. But yeah. And so I don't know what, what advice do you have for, for young people breaking in? Do you, you know, are you getting swarm by this? You know?Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. It, I mean, you know, it happens. I mean, you get it right? You get people and they wanna send you. IMichael Jamin:Get it. But you, I'm, I think you might get different questions from me. You're, you're, well, IKevin Heffernan:Guess, I guess other, you know, I mean, yeah, I get other questions.Michael Jamin:You get recognize you walk on the street and people know who you are andKevin Heffernan:So Yeah. How do I become an actor, you know, and get that. Yeah. And, you know and it's hard. Like I, you know, I try to help people out, but I, you know, you know, there's not, there's like a, some sort magic bullet. Like, you know, guys in this industry, I mean, no matter how long you've been there, you me, every day we try to figure out how to keep our careers going. Mm-Hmm. You know what I mean? , it's like, yeah. It's like I got enough trouble, you know, trying to get what I, you know, I don't know what my next project is, you know? Right. And, and it's and every, it's a fight. I don't care if you're Martin Scorsese or whatever, it's always a fucking fight. Yeah. And so, you know, you try to impress it on people, but you don't wanna be, you know, the doom and gloom guy.You know, I, I, I did a, our buddy who's a producer, rich Perlo, who produced these our movies, he teaches a class at Columbia and, you know, LUMY and I zoomed into the class the other day and there's a lot of those questions, you know, and, and I, we got off and I was trying, I said to him, God, I'm to Rich who teaches the class. I said, I'm really sorry. I hope we didn't come across as these doom and gloom guys. Cuz we, you know, our point was it's very hard and you gotta work hard and nobody's gonna give it to you. Mm-Hmm. , you know, there's like all these kind of like, you know, myths of you know, being discovered this, that, the other thing. But it's like, you know, we've been pushing the rock up the hill for, for many, many years. Yeah. And it's just accumulation of relationships and experiences and whatever that kind of get you going that way. You know,Michael Jamin:It's, it's, yeah. Sometimes people say to me though, they wanna send me scripts. I, I'm not the guy, I I'm not the gatekeeper. I'm not the guy. I'm, I'm the same guy as you are. Try Kevin Heffernan:Trying to Yeah. You want me to do, you know, I mean, and, and you know, like you can't read their script cuz then you do violate various kind of legal things, you know?Michael Jamin:Yeah. I'm not doing that. Yeah.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. And I remember the first time we ran into that, I think we we had just gone to college and Jay and I wrote like all these spec jokes and sent 'em to the Letterman show. Mm-Hmm. . And they just, and you, like four days later you get the envelope back unopened. Yeah. with a return to sender thing on it. And there's a, a form letter, it says, we do not read unsolicited material, you know? Yep. Oh,Michael Jamin:That's, that's the end ofKevin Heffernan:That. And so that's, you can't even, you can't do it that way. So you just have to work. And I, I tell these guys also, you know, you think about some of the people who work with us, like in our writer's room, right? It's like we have this great woman Hannah who she, you know, wants to be a writer and she wants, or at least wants to work in the industry. And, and you know, we said, well, you know, you can start, you know, at the bottom. That's how, that's how you do it. You know. And so she came and she was, you know, an intern unpaid for a while, and then she was a pa and she worked right up and da blah da. And then, you know, she got to do some stuff in our writer's room, you know, essentially the secretarial elements of it, you know, which she did last year. And and that's the way you do it. You know, you start at the grunt level and then you make relationships and you keep going, , you work yourMichael Jamin:Way, right? People wanna start at the top, Mike, you don't get to start at the top. You gotta start. No.Kevin Heffernan:And you meet all the people on the way up. You know, the guy who is my, now my, my PR guy, my PR agent, who's a pre reputable guy in the business now. He's like, I don't know if you remember, I met you, you know, many years ago. And I was like, is that right? And he goes, yeah, I was an assistant on the desk of this producer mm-hmm. that you guys are doing a project with. And you would come to the office and you'd like, oh. And he said, you're very nice to me. And I, I was like, oh, glad, I'm glad to hear that. Yes. and . Now here's that guy. He's, you know, this big PR guy who, you know is very successful in the business, you know? So it, it's just, you know, there's no way that people are gonna put their script in there and become this, you know, the next Oscar winner until they work theirMichael Jamin:Right pe people are gonna think that you have listened to me talk on social media. And I know for a fact you haven't because you're saying that I've already said, which is Oh, okay. You know, I told a story as well where I was, I can't, we were going to pitch a show and the person we're meeting with is young executive. He goes, you know, we, we've met before. And I'm like, oh no. I'm like, cause I don't remember the guy. And I'm like, already, I just tanked the meeting. And he goes, yeah, I was a, I worked on a desk and you were nice to me. And I was like, oh, thank God. You know, you gotta be nice to people cuz they, you've gotta be nice to people cuz they're not gonna stay in that deskKevin Heffernan:Correctly. That's why I tell everyone, you wanna know the key to Hollywood, be nice to the assistance. Yes. Because they're, they are the gatekeepers and then ultimately they will move on to other jobs. Yeah. So they benefit you in many different ways, but if you're just a nice personMichael Jamin:Yeah, I say that as well. Don't kiss my ass, kiss the ass of the assistant. They're the ones I'm gettingKevin Heffernan:The door.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I'm not gonna help you. But they might help you.Kevin Heffernan:But then it's all, you know, whatever. It's all relationships. We, you know, I, like you said, I didn't do a, we'd never made a TV show before, you know? And we relied on certain people like you to help us do that. SoMichael Jamin:Now, and now you don't need us anymore. But don't, don't.Kevin Heffernan:Well I, I like to, I like to have you though.Michael Jamin:You like to have my little nap, littleKevin Heffernan:Laptop. No. You know, it's funny, I, I vividly remember that meeting that we first had with you guys. Yeah. And we, we were at day, we were at we were at the three arts offices. Yep. And and I remember this cuz I was like, you know, let me and I, and you know, maybe you've come to realize it, but lemme and I were, were a little bit more insecure about our knowledge about how to make a TV show cuz we hadn't done it before. Right. And and I remember I kept in the meeting, we would have conversations like, he would keep saying things like well I don't know cause we only make movies, you know, I don't know. Cause we gonna make movies. I kept saying that. And what I was trying to say was, I don't know anything about tv. Right. But then your partner Sievert, he, he threw that back in my face. . At one point he said something he said, but I don't know cause I only make tv, you know. Oh my God. That's the funniest fucking thing. I thought it was so fucking funny. Michael Jamin:Oh, thank God he didn't tank the meeting.Kevin Heffernan:No, no. I mean, I, I thought it was hysterical because that's exactly how it sounded. Uhhuh . But but we all knew what we were really saying to each other. You know what I mean? Right, right. But good cause you know, he, he made a joke of it and I thought that was very funny. I I always remember that. I alwaysMichael Jamin:Think about that. Oh, that's so funny. Cause he, he'd be embarrassed. I think if you, if you mentioned that we had a meeting once, I don't wanna say what it was, but it was not a, it was on a Disney show and you know, and he didn't want the job, but it was a job. And and he tanked. Siver tanked. He didn't mean to, he just kept on putting his foot what wasn'tKevin Heffernan:Intentional tanking.Michael Jamin:Right. He was not intentional tanking . And, and actually thank God he did. Because after that we got What did he do?Kevin Heffernan:Like what did you do to tank it? Like what was it, was he just saying bad shit?Michael Jamin:He was trying to, he was trying to be not, he was basically saying, how do you know if this is funny? Like, he's basically saying, none of this is funny to me. How do you know if it's funny?Kevin Heffernan:Okay.Michael Jamin:That's coming out. And it was just the funniest thing. And he was trying to cover up and, and I was trying to help him dig outta this hole. And it was just getting worse . And afterwards he felt terrible. He felt, cuz it's not what he was trying to do, he just felt terrible about it. But it worked out for the best.Kevin Heffernan:And you clearly did not get the job.Michael Jamin:We did not get the job. No one, only an idiot would hire after that job. But and I, I didn't make him feel bad. He felt terrible. But I was like, don't, don't worry about it. This is not the job for us.Kevin Heffernan:. . See, you don't want it. Like, if they don't get, you know, you don't wantMichael Jamin:Yeah, it was, it was a, it was very awkward. But we doKevin Heffernan:That in a lot in our careers though. Like, I feel like there was certainly, and certainly in that time period I talked about where we were just selling, you know, TV scripts. You re you think about like, I I just want to, I just need to make some money. I need to do this. I need you going to get this door and whatever. And then, I don't know, there, I think that point in time where we started doing standup and whatever, I was just like, ah, fuck, fuck it man. I can't, we had been hired so many times to write scripts for people and, and you know, it didn't go anywhere that they, you're like, what the fuck, who the fuck is this person giving me comedy notes? Mm-Hmm. . And finally you're like, Ugh, I don't wanna do that anymore. Yeah, yeah. I just wanna make a TV show.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And, and, and, and you get, you know, it's actually, I I think it's, it's more gra I don't know, I say this never having made a movie, but I don't know. It's like you get to shoot it, you write it and then you shoot it and then it's up in the air in a matter of months. And they get Yeah. You could do work in film, not you guys, but most people work in film and they never get a, you know, anything shot. They can have aKevin Heffernan:. Yeah. I mean that's the Yeah. But that, that's, that's also the weird thing about movies too. And, well, it's a little different when these movies now this, this streaming stuff is just a little bit different. It's, it is a little bit more in the TV world, but movies are kind of like gotta, I don't wanna sound like a, I'm shitting on it or whatever, but I, it's, I love it. But there is like this thing with this, this buildup and you've worked on this thing for years and then it gets to that first weekend and then that's it. Whether it's, you know, successful or not successful, you're done.Michael Jamin:It's all about opening weekend.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. It's over. Like, you know, like, there's not like a, and I'm not saying that in a bad way, I'm just saying it's like, it's like, it's like kinda stepping off a cliff, you know what I mean? And then you're done. Like tv, the beauty of like Tacoma 13 weeks in a row, you got in something new story that's coming out.Michael Jamin:Right. And it can buildKevin Heffernan:And it can build and it's a new thing. ButMichael Jamin:Never whatKevin Heffernan:Understood that finite thing, you know?Michael Jamin:But I never understood that with a box office. If you tank on your opening weekend, like, well why can't it build, grow? Like why can't it grow in the second weekend? Why can't, the word of mouthKevin Heffernan:Why can, and it does at times, but it doesn't ma like the, the metric the bar is, is how you do in that first weekend. So like,Michael Jamin:That's what you're measured up. But why don't they consider the overall gross? I mean, I don't, you know.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. I, it just, it doesn't know. I don't know. Cause it, it just, it's all pushed by that opening weekend. You know, like our, like our movie like Super Troopers. It did, you know, it did okay. It did nothing. Nobody who we were. But you know, it was at the height of the kind of DVD era, which is they were, you know, printing money in that era. This movie studios were. Yeah. And we would see, you know, quarterly reports for, you know, Fox or whatever and Super Troopers would be listed in them cuz it would be making so much money for them. Yeah. Not in theatrical, but on the DVD market. Right. And you're like, well, why aren't we though? You know, the guys that you sing about. And it's, it's cuz it's still the industry still driven by opening weekend.Michael Jamin:It's so Still is. Yeah. Because it became a cult hit. I mean, you guys are, you know, you really have a, a cult following. I mean, and then loyal, you know, they, they show up you're fans.Kevin Heffernan:Yeah. And so that, that was the great thing. So this trailer came out and in the first 24 hours at 8 million views.Michael Jamin:Is that right? Yeah. How did, how did that now where did they drop where? Okay. How does that work when they drop a trailer on the, we&#

Join me in welcoming Michael Sivert to the podcast for an informative conversation about how having a trauma-informed lens can help you create a more welcoming and inclusive classroom for all students. He is a 5th Grade teacher in Ohio. He has been teaching Upper Elementary grades for 17 years. His passion revolves around Social-Emotional Learning, and he works to make SEL accessible to teachers. He creates lesson plans and resources for the upper elementary classroom that have a trauma-informed lens. Mikey offers demand courses and workshops that help creative, passionate, and student-centered Upper Elementary teachers find ways to integrate SEL into their daily curriculum to enhance their classroom community and create a happy and healthy environment for their students. If you are interested in connecting with Michael you can find him: Instagram - @mikeydteach Website - https://mikeydteach.com/ FREE SEL Resources - https://mikeydteach.com/get-free-resources/ ******************************************************************* In this episode I mentioned: Ratchetdemic by Dr. Chris Emdin Equity-Centered Trauma-Informed Education by Alex Shevrin Venet Grade Level Book Recommendations - visit https://bookshop.org/shop/CustomTeachingSolutions . Lesson Plan Coaching Call - Click HERE to schedule Activities for creating a welcoming and inclusive class - Buy resources in my TEACHER SHOP Culture-Centered Teacher WORKSHOPS - Click HERE for more information Ready to take action? Grab your FREE "The Ultimate Classroom Diversity Checklist" at https://customteachingsolutions.com/thechecklist Schedule a free DISCOVERY CALL at https://calendly.com/customteachingsolutions/35min Check out The Culture-Centered Teacher Workshops HERE! CONNECT WITH ME: Email - Jocelynn@customteachingsolutions.com LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/company/cts-custom-teaching-solutions/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/iteachcustom/ Website - https://customteachingsolutions.com **Custom Teaching Solutions is a affiliate for Bookshop.org, which means we receive a commission on every sale that comes through our link.** --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jocelynn-hubbard/support

Galina Sivert became her own experiment. After years of feeling fear and anxiety, struggling with toxic patterns and addictions, being unable to break the painful cycles, and feeling only heartbreak and disappointment, she decided to stop the madness and get to know her inner landscape. In this podcast, Galina discusses conscious conversations and their power to wound us further or be our greatest platform for growth and healing. You will learn about projections, showing up in conversations uncharged, holding space and learning not to take things personally.Follow Galina on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/galina.sivert/Galina's website - https://www.galinasivert.com/ GET MY NEW BOOK - Follow The Joyhttps://www.simplisara.com/bookCOME TO THE SIMPLI ALIGNED EVENT - November 18th 2022https://www.simplisara.com/aligned Follow Simpli Sara:Website: https://www.simplisara.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simpli.sara // Intro music from THBD - Good For You // ✖️ https://soundcloud.com/thbdsultan ✖️ https://fb.com/thbds

I finalen av jubileumsuken møter Sivert igjen journalist og forfatter Sigrid Sollund. Men denne gangen er rollene snudd, og Sigrid intervjuer Sivert om anger.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/anger. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This week, we have our first Podcast guest, Writer/Director Rob Cohen. Rob has written and directed for shows like The Simpsons, Wonder Years, The Ben Stiller Show, MAD TV, SNL, Just Shoot Me, Maron, Big Bang Theory & Black-ish. Join Michael Jamin and Rob Cohen as they discuss their careers, breaking in, and what it means to have a long, fruitful career in Hollywood.Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistRob Cohen on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0169712/Transcripts are Auto-GeneratedRob Cohen:Just shoot Me was in the nineties. And if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good, and some were terrible. But now, if you look at NBC, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?Michael Jamin:Yeah, maybe. Yeah.Rob Cohen:Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old-timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.Michael Jamin:Right. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam. Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My name is Michael Jamin and Phil is not here with us today, but I have a special guest. This is our first time ever having a guest on, on our podcast. And I'm absolutely thrilled that it's, you know, in Hollywood. People say this is my good friend, My, but it's true. Rob, you're my good friend and thank you.Rob Cohen:You're my goodMichael Jamin:Friend. Yeah. . And so it's nice to actually have a good friend kick off my guest on the show. So let me introduce you. This is Rob Cohen, Writer, Director, and I'm gonna scroll through some of your credits so people know who you are. And and I'm sorry, I'm, I'm only gonna do some of the highlights that I think I'm gonna leave out. Probably the someone's I, because you had, Rob has a huge resume and you're a writer and a director, but you started andRob Cohen:Some of it is good.Michael Jamin:And for, for those of you wanna make a, a visualization. Rob also worked on one of your early jobs was The Simpsons and the character of Millhouse was Rob modeled after him. So Rob is picture Millhouse now older and sadder. So, and also Rob's Canadian. So I wanna talk about how a Canadian breaks into the business. Sure. The whole language barrier, how you learned English. Right. I wanna learn how weRob Cohen:Figured out Yeah. How the machines work so we could Yeah.Michael Jamin:I know you drove a dog sled growing up and now, now you drive a car. So stuff like that. Thank you.Rob Cohen:Thank YouMichael Jamin:Thank you. So let's begin. Rob's, I guess your first staff job, I guess was the Naked Truth, your big one?Rob Cohen:No, my very first staff job full time was the Ben Stiller show.Michael Jamin:Oh, right. Will you go back even further than that? Bend Stiller. Right. And you also did Mad tv. Hold on. Your credits are crazy good. Like you have a huge list of credits. Naked Truth work with me, I met you on, well I think I knew you before that, but just shoot me work. You work together, right? Bet, bet. Midler show. Yes. According to Jim. Mm-Hmm. , according to your credits, you are on, According to Jim. Right. the Jamie Kennedy experiment. Was that a show or an experiment? Rob?Rob Cohen:That was an experiment. That became a show on the wv.Michael Jamin:See Dots? I don't know what that is. It'sRob Cohen:A amazing, That was a pilot for nbc. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Oh, Pilot. How did you get that in there? Father of the Pride? You remember that, that animated show American Dad? I've heard of that one. Yep. Big Bang Theory. Heard of that one. Mm-Hmm. , 20 Good Years. Mm-Hmm. , our friend Marsh McCall created that show. Mm-Hmm. Emily's reasons why not. Mm-Hmm. fascinating.Rob Cohen:You're really combing through all theMichael Jamin:I'm on IMDB.Rob Cohen:Yeah, of course.Michael Jamin:There's more Life In Times of Tim, which was a riot that, that animated show Maron, which we brought you back. We hired you to be a writer and director on that. We're gonna talk about that. Yeah, sure. Lady Dynamite with our friend Pam Brady. Mm-Hmm. I don't know companies. I don't, I don't know. So I'm skipping over the, But you also have your own show called Hanging with Dr. Z. We're gonna talk about that. And then, But directing credits are also crazy. I mean, really I'm all them. Well, well you're, you're, you're good looking. Thanks. Let's go over some of them. Sure. Obviously you did a, you did a bunch of Marons. Yeah. Mystery Science Theater, 3000. You did some Lady Dynamites. Yeah. You did Blackish. Mm-Hmm. Stand Against Evil, Speechless. Bless this Mess. Superstore, you directed mm-hmm. The Goldbergs, you directed. Mm-Hmm. Interesting. told that Mo You are, And then most recently, somebody somewhere, which I, I talk about that a lot cause I love the pilot of that. And I just love that show. You directed five episodes of thatRob Cohen:Damn right. Seven,Michael Jamin:Seven. We have to update your IMDB. Yeah,Rob Cohen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Let's start at the beginning. Cuz a lot of people ask me this and I have no answer. How does a Canadian start work in this country? Like, there are lawsRob Cohen:There are laws and I mean, I know that Americans are all about purity. So I will say that Canadians, they're almost like Americans. It's almost like we live next door to you guys,Michael Jamin:South or north of us.Rob Cohen:I, I don't know, , I don't know. But I didn't have any aspirations to get into showbiz or even come to the United States. So I didn't know that it was a, it was all a fluke. The whole thing was a fluke. I can certainly condense the journey.Michael Jamin:Let's hear it.Rob Cohen:The fast version is I was a bit of a scam as a young man and was encouraged to live on my own at a young age. And so I lived on my own and I was just a complete screw up. And I grew up in Calgary and had no future whatsoever.Michael Jamin:You were encouraged to live on your own at what age?Rob Cohen:15.Michael Jamin:Why? You were, you were a handful for your parents.Rob Cohen:I was a handful because my dad had gotten remarried and the mix was not the greatest mix. So there were two opinions on how things should work in that situation. I was of one opinion andMichael Jamin:TheRob Cohen:Back was of another.Michael Jamin:But looking back on it, do you realize, Do, are you, do you feel like you were wrong as a 15 year old? Or do you like No, I was right.Rob Cohen:You were right. I was absolutely right. Interesting. Absolutely. Right. and so I just, You,Michael Jamin:You were on your own at 15, Dude, I, I couldn't imagine.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I had an apartment. I, I mean, it's not like I suddenly got, was living on my own and figured everything out. I was still a disaster. I just had my own apartment and I was so stupid that for the first month I was like, Oh, this is awesome. My party pad. And I had all my buddies over and we were just doing stupid things. And then I got the, basically realized I had to pay rent and gas and electric. And I was like, Oh my God. Like, I actually have to pay these bills to live here. And I was delivering pizzas at night, and that was certainly,Michael Jamin:You're gonna school during the day and delivering pizza.Rob Cohen:Yeah, I delivered pizzas. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was a comp, I was a disaster. I had a 75 Dodge Dart that I would deliver pizzas in whatever the weather was and would like steal gasoline from car lots. So I could put gas in my car to deliver pizzas. I was a complete idiot.Michael Jamin:Have you tried pitching this as a show?Rob Cohen:No. it's just, it's so, it's, it's interesting in hindsight, but it's also, you know, you could call it, you know, like it's like Don portrait of a team runaway. It's like Rob portrait of a complete disaster because every choice I made was wrong. That'sMichael Jamin:Mind's a good show.Rob Cohen:. Well, maybe at some point, but I think I sold a pilot once about my parents' weird divorce and how they lived a block away from each other, but had the same address through it, some flute. But anyways, I was just drifting around for a while, just doing nothing. And sort of speeding up to your question. My cousin lived here in LA in the Valley, and I, because I was doing nothing in Calgary and had, I was not gonna college, I did not have enough credits or interest to go to university. And just got my car one day and left my apartment in Calgary and just threw a bunch of stuff in the car and drove down here to LA to visit my cousin who lived in Vaneyes. And again, like speeding through the boring stuff. I was just gonna visit for a couple days and crash on his couch.Rob Cohen:And I met this girl that he was going to school with, and we, she and I hit it off and I'm like, I'll stay another week mm-hmm. and then I'll stay another week. And then I sort of had this, if you want to use the word epiphany incorrectly realized like, I could go back to Calgary and do nothing, or I could stay here and do nothing with this girl. So I decided to like stick around for an you know, excuse me, undetermined amount of time. And then realized I'm kind of living here. But I was, I lived here illegally for many years.Michael Jamin:And you were like 17.Rob Cohen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:How old were you? And you were living here illegally?Rob Cohen:Yes. For many years. Interesting.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And, but you were working, How did you work then?Rob Cohen:I worked under the table. I got a bunch of jobs. I think the statute of limitations is over, but I worked at different restaurants and Right. The, I was a security guard at a mall. I sold shoes, I fixed yogurt machines.Michael Jamin:You know, I worked at a yogurt store. I wonder if you fixed Humphrey yogurt.Rob Cohen:You fix, did you fix them? I worked at a place called I can't believe it's Yogurt. And then they opened up a second store that said, Yes, it's yogurt . So they basically, they opened up a store that answered a question nobody was asking. No. Was asking . Yeah. And I still remember how to, you know, you unscrew those four bolts and you pull out the assembly and you take the O-rings off and you clean them and then you lu the O-rings and then you put the thing back in. But it was all the reality was because I looked and mostly sounded like an American people never asked. And this was pre nine 11 and pre all that stuff. And they just thought I was American. And no, not one person asked me for any validating id. Wow. And I, I made up a fake social security number and got hired and they, a lot of 'em just paid me cash under the table.Michael Jamin:This is perfect. Yeah. Now, and then at some point, well, but maybe I'll skip. So how did you, how did this whole Hollywood thing happen? When did you decide, how did that, when did you decide you wanted to be a, I guess, a writer? Right.Rob Cohen:Well, I never decided it. I, I, it's such a boring story and I may actually do it as a pilot, but cutting to the chase, I was delivering food for a, a deli that is no longer in business in LA Right. And had a lot of clientele that were in show business. And this one guy took a liking to me and basically said, you know, if you ever wanna get outta the exciting world of late night sandwich delivery, gimme a call. We need PAs. And I didn't know what a PA was. And he explained what it was. So I, I, this is how dope I was. I was like, Yeah, sure. So I'll, I called him up and went over to the Fox lot and he explained what a PA was Uhhuh and I thought it paid more than working at thisMichael Jamin:Deli. And he, he was a producer. What wasRob Cohen:He? Producer? for, I mean, he's still a producer, but producer of The Simpsons, Tracy Elman show. Oh, okay. This, he's an amazing guy named Richards guy who I, I literally owe everything to. And he hired me because I was nice to him when I would deliver food as a PA on the Trace Elman Show. And that was the very first time I was exposed to anything in show business whatsoever. And I was assigned to the writer's room, so I was in charge of getting them food and cleaning up. And And that's a queen. Yeah. And it was an amazing writer's room. And that was it. That was the first exposure to it.Michael Jamin:And then when did you decide you wanna start? When did you start writing?Rob Cohen:I didn't start writing. I was there for the last two seasons of the Tracy Elman Show. And then on the last season I didn't even, I still don't really know how to type. I started hunt and peck, but I would stay late at night. And they were, it was a great writer's room and they were really nice to me. And I just thought these guys seemed to be having fun. And one night they were stuck on a joke and that meant they were sticking around, which meant I had to stick around because I had to clean up after them. And I just decided like, I'm gonna write down a couple options for this joke. And sort of meekly slipped it to one of the writers, this guy Mark Flanigan, who was an incredible, and I'm like, you know, I don't mean to step on eight toes, but I just, I wanna go home.Rob Cohen:Ideas. Yeah. And that was literally, I wanna go home. And he, they used one of the jokes. And so I got to go home . And then I was like, Okay, well I'll try this again. So I, I started to very quietly with months in between side sort of pitch ideas. And then I went in at night after work and Red Scripts and sort of taught myself how a script is visually structured. Right. And then on the computer would type fake scripts just to physically format a script. And then, because it was a sketch show, I had this idea for a sketch and I just typed it up and it took like a month for me to type up a six page sketch cuz I was terrified. Right. And they ended up buying it and Wow. It was like $1,600. And I got an agent at caa, but I was still a pa at the Tracy Elman show. Right. And, and then I thought, again, showing my lack of planning for my life it was like, this writing things seems kind of fun, like maybe I'll try it. And that was, that was when I had the first inkling that perhaps that was something I may want to try to pursue. But there was no guarantee of success.Michael Jamin:And then you just continued writing specs scripts and your agents started submitting you places.Rob Cohen:I wrote a bunch of spec stuff and then by that point to Tracy Mond show was canceled and they switched. It was the same production company as The Simpsons, which was just starting. So they switched everybody over to The Simpsons. And then because everybody there was so great when The Simpsons took off, you know, it just was huge outta the gate. They had all these weird assignments that they needed help with. Like can you come up with 50 grant calls for Bart? Can you come up with a promo for this? Do the Bartman video that's gonna be on mtv. And I'm actually looking, the, my very first check sort of professional check over on the wall was for writing the intro that Bart Simpson was gonna say on MTV for the Do the Bartman video that had Michael Jackson on it. Right.Rob Cohen:So I got $300 and then just started sort of you know, writing weird things. And the, the first actual job that I got was I was recommended by one of the writers to these producers named Smith Heian. Mm-Hmm. And they were doing a 50th anniversary Bugs Bunny special for CBS. And they needed a writer that knew a lot of stuff about Bugs Bunny. So I had a meeting with them, they hired me for $2,600 to write this whole special, And that was like my first professionally produced credit of something that was, I, I was involved in from the beginning to the end. Right. But I'm still a paMichael Jamin:And none of this see, people ask me like, Well, do I have to move to Hollywood to work in Hollywood? AndRob Cohen:Like, Right.Michael Jamin:I mean, this wouldn't happen if you were not in Hollywood.Rob Cohen:Oh yeah. And it was, everybody says this, but it was absolutely a different time. And I also think that because it was the late eighties, early nineties and things were, there were way more jobs. And also because sketch shows were so popular, they needed people needed little bits. And also being around The Simpsons from the beginning, it was great like that. The Do the Bartman thing I sweated over that for a week and it was probably four sentences. Right. and I would write like top 10 lists for Letterman and try to send them in like naively thinking here's, here's 20 top 10 lists, Maybe you guys will like them. And I was just, I would stay there late at night in the office on the Fox up by myself with, you know, feral cats giving birth under the trailer just writing weird stuff and kind of figuring out the job as I was doing it.Michael Jamin:And then how did you get the Ben Stiller Jo Show?Rob Cohen:This has gotta be also boring.Michael Jamin:I think it's fascinating.Rob Cohen:Well, the way I got the Stiller show was The Simpsons had taken off and I was still working for Gracie. And I had an idea for an episode and it was season two of The Simpsons. And so I went and just wrote this episode on spec on my own. And it was basically a diehard parody cuz Diehard had come out just like a couple years before that about the power plant where Homer works getting taken over and he inadvertently becomes a hero and saves a power plant. Mm-Hmm. . So I wrote this whole spec, I turned it into Sam Simon who was running the show and was just great and he loved it. But what I was told sort of off the record is at that time, Gracie Films had a rule where they could not hire writers that were already working for the company in another capacity.Rob Cohen:It was like this weird archaic rule. So being a Ding Don I was like, Oh yeah, well screw that. I quit. So I walked over to the main bungalow and spoke to Richard Sky and I was like, You know what? I think that rule's terrible and Sam likes my script and I just think I'm gonna try this writing thing. And, and I quit. And they're like, Well, we're sorry to have you go. And then as I was walking back across the parking lot to get my stuff, Sam grabbed me and he is like, I heard you quit. And I said, Yes. And he goes, Well now you don't work here anymore, so now we can hire you, but we can't use your idea because you pitched it to us when you're an employee. And I was like, That's weird. But cutting to the chase.Rob Cohen:They took me upstairs to the writer's room and they had an index card that just says Homer invents a drink and most deals it. And so they said, We would like you, we loved your script and you've been here since the beginning. Like, we'd love you to write an episode. And I was like, Absolutely. I was freaking out. And I said, like a, an arrogant idiot. I was like, But I wanna be involved in the entire process. Cause I knew the process cuz I was working on the show. And they're like, You got it. And so we broke the whole story and it ended up being the episode flaming mosMichael Jamin:Flaming. I know you wrote Flaming Mo. Wow.Rob Cohen:So I wrote Flaming Moose, and then time went by and, and it got produced and it was on the air. And the way that I got the Stiller show was I was doing punch up on this terrible movie for Morgan Creek and met this other writer there named Jeff Khan. And Jeff and I hit it off and he's like, Hey, they're shooting this weird pilot at my apartment, you wanna go check it out? And I was like, Sure. So we went over and it was the pilot for the Ben Stiller show. Mm-Hmm. . And Ben was there and he and I hit it off and he was asking what I'd worked on and I said, this episode that had just come out for The Simpsons called Flaming Mos. And he was like, I love Flaming Moes, you wrote that. So he said, if his pilot ever became a show, he would love to hire me because we, he and I had so many similar references in our life. We love disaster movies and all this other stuff. So we really clicked. And then a couple months later, the show got picked up and he called me and said, I wanna hire you. And that was my first staff job.Michael Jamin:Wow. What itRob Cohen:Entail? What it entail. IMichael Jamin:Not it is, No, I think it's so cool. I I've known you all these years. I didn't even know that dude.Rob Cohen:And then it's all flukes. It's all flukes,Michael Jamin:It's all Yeah. But it's also you putting yourself out there and I don't know. That's amazing.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I mean, I'm very fortunate these flukes happened because, ButMichael Jamin:You also Yeah. I hadn't but you put yourself in a position to have these flu happen too. Yeah. AndRob Cohen:You were put if I hadn't, but I was prepared. But if I hadn't met Jeff that day and we hadn't gone to his apartment, I would not have met Ben and that wouldn't have led to the show. Right. WhichMichael Jamin:Led. But you're also, I mean, honestly, and I mean this in a compliment, like you're one of the be better connected, more most connected writers. I know, you know, a lot of people like, you know, you're friend, you're a friendly guy, you, you know, a lot of people I guess maybe cuz you leave your houseRob Cohen:No, but you're, you're connected, you know, a lot of people, it's just,Michael Jamin:It's just I know, but I'm always, I'm always surprised by who you like you seem to know more people .Rob Cohen:Yeah. But it's only because I just think I hate this term, but I think the alt comedy scene was starting when you and I were starting off in LA Yeah. And because, especially because of the Stiller show, that whole crew were so important. Like Janine and David Cross and all those guys were so important to the alt comedy scene. And then that's where Jack Black and Tenacious D started and all these other people Will Ferrell. Like they were all coming up that way. I just think it was timing of an, an era that was happening. So wereMichael Jamin:Just, Were you involved in that? Like did you do like, what do you mean? Did you go to those shows and stuff? Like IRob Cohen:Oh yeah. The Diamond Club. Yeah. I mean it was, that was the whole scene. Like big intel books, the Diamond Club. IMichael Jamin:Didn't even know about it back then.Rob Cohen:Really? Oh my God. Yeah. That was where everybody hung out. Like I even performed in some of those dopey shows just because it was, it was a group of friends that were not famous yet that we're just doing these weird shows at this place, The Diamond Club in Hollywood, which is gone mm-hmm. . And you could tell it was like, you know, Jack and Kyle, you knew they were amazing, but they were not tenacious to you yet. Right. And, and Will was not Will Fiery yet. He was a guy from you, the Groundlings and people were just, you know, Janine and David and Pat Oswald and all these guys that were justMichael Jamin:Right. So let's talk about those guys. So they were, you know, these are people putting themselves out there. It's not like Absolutely. They're not saying, Hey, I put me in my movie. They're just putting themselves out there. They're doing shows. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just how you do it. And so is they're not asking to start at the top, they're starting at the bottom.Rob Cohen:Yeah. Well I think that's a great point. And I think using the, the Diamond Club shows, The Diamond Club was this horrible, horrible dumpy club. A club is a loose term that was owned by one of the the Stray Cat was it Stray Cats?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know the band. TheRob Cohen:Band The Stray Cats. Yeah. It was like Slim Jim Phantom, I think was the guy who owned the club. Okay. So it was this horrible, decrepit theater that was near LaBrea and Hollywood and it was kind of a you can do anything you want kind of place because it was just soaked in like old piss smell and booze. But the good thing was a lot of friends of ours, like this friend CJ Arabia, started to put these shows together. And so she would ask everybody in our little group that all hung out and travel together and dated each other and whatever. It's like, hey, we can do these shows at the Diamond Club. And I'm not a performer, but it would be like, we would build entire sets out of corrugated cardboard and paint them because the Diamond Club didn't care. They just wanted to sell alcohol to people that came to the shows . So there would be like, you know, shows where you look now at the lineup, you're like, Holy crap, that's the, that's like a lineup of insane comedy hitters. Right. But at the time they were not, they were just young weirdos.Michael Jamin:It's so, because you know, I moved here in 92, I lived right in West Hollywood. I lived right on the corner and I'm just, it's amazed how like we just didn't know each other then, you know? Yeah,Rob Cohen:Yeah. But you and I actually in Seavert sort of weirdly intersected with the Wonder years unbeknownst to us.Michael Jamin:I well sever wrote on that. I didn't he sold number years.Rob Cohen:No, but you guys, and you're credited on my episode.Michael Jamin:I'm no, I I didn't work in the Wonder Years. Si sold ans sold an episode of Freelance episode of Wonder Years, my partner becauseRob Cohen:Yeah. But it's so weird because on screen, it's you two and me credited on the episode. I pitched to Bob Brush. He tried to ripMichael Jamin:Up. Not me, dude. I don't have any credits on Wonder Years. You gotta, I Oh,Rob Cohen:You know, Seavert and his old partner?Michael Jamin:Yeah, his old partner. Yeah. Yes.Rob Cohen:Sorry. It was Sivert and his previous partner.Michael Jamin:I'm surprised he got credit though. Okay.Rob Cohen:Wow. Wow. The whole thing was Bob Brush was just stealing ideas left and right. But wow. That's interesting. But that's SivertMichael Jamin:And I But you never wanted to I'm well, I'm sorry I cut you off. GoRob Cohen:Ahead. No, no. I was gonna say, I didn't know you were Seavert yet. Right. But on that episode, Seavert and I share credit even though at the time we were complete strangers. And then I really met him when I met you on just shootMichael Jamin:Me. Right, Right. Now, did you, you never wanted to perform, I mean, it's funny cause you have performed but you never wanted to.Rob Cohen:I have performed reluctantly. I hate it. And it was like, whether the Diamond Club show or if I've been like an emergency fill in at the Growlings, it's, before I do it, I'm like, Hey, this is cool. It's gonna like sharpen my brain and it's gonna be a great thing. Just jump off the cliff and try. And then in the middle of it I'm soaked in sweat and hate myself. And then at the end I, I am so relieved it's over and I absolutely loathe it. I wait,Michael Jamin:I'm just shoot me. I remember we had you play the dirty bus. The dirty bus Boy was your character. Dirty Dirty bus, and you hit it outta the park.Rob Cohen:. Well, all I had to do is sort of wiggle my eyes. Lasciviously while it was clear the older waitress and I were messing around.Michael Jamin:Oh my God.Rob Cohen:Cause Andy called me in and said, Can you, He's done that so many times where it's like when he had True Jackson, he's like we need somebody to be the hobo king. Can you be a paramount an hour? I'm like, .Michael Jamin:Okay.Rob Cohen:But it's not. Cuz I love it. I, I hate it, but it's also, it sounds so goofy that if I don't have any lines or something that I'm fine doing it. But I ended up on so many shows I worked on as a writer, being an emergency go to that.Michael Jamin:IRob Cohen:Truly, I truly hate it. IMichael Jamin:Truly hate it. As mentioned, Rob was talking about Andy Gordon, who's a writer we worked with a number of times. Yeah. A great guy and hilarious writer, butRob Cohen:Hilarious and so funny. Like just as a personMichael Jamin:It really witty, really making laugh. Yeah. And you just had dinner with him. Yeah. It's so fa Okay, so then you were okay. Then we worked together and just shoot, We, for many years, we, we used to sit next to each other. Yeah. Sometimes at least. Yeah. And then, and then what happened was years, I remember years later we were doing a pilot. We were helping out a pilot. I don't remember whose Do you, do you remember? We were, I remember I pilot, I don't know, might have been, might have been a CBS Ratford pilot, but, but what happened? So people don't know. So when someone makes a pilot, it's very, at least back in the day, it was very common for the person who created the show to call in their friends as a favor. Hey, can you guys help, you know, sit a couple days and help me, You know? Right. Pitch on jokes or do the rewrite or whatever. And as it's courtesy, you always say yes. I mean, you just never, never say no. And CauseRob Cohen:You also hope, if it's a success, you'll get a job.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But sometimes you have a job so you don't even care. But Sure. But, but absolutely. You always say yes. And I remember being there on the state floor, and I hadn't seen you in a while, and I was like, Rob, what are you up to? And then you said, I was like, so I was thinking you were gonna, you know, you had written on a bunch of shows, but you were like, Yeah, I'm kind of done. I'm done writing, I wanna directRob Cohen:Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. And so what happened there? What was the, what made you wanna stop writing and start directing?Rob Cohen:I feel like I, I'm gonna continue to take long, boring stories and compress them, but the, the quickest answer is I'm so appreciative of the, the fluke that come into writing. And I, I was a writer on TV shows for 18 years. Right. And I, I greatly appreciate the opportunity that it provided in all areas. But what was happening would be I would be on a show and they would need somebody to go supervise, like a shoot on, like at, you know, the Radford lot. There was that fake New York Park. So they would need somebody to go film a scene that's supposedly Central Park. Right. Also, if they were doing any exterior shoots, I would volunteer to do that. And there's people we know that are writers that hate being around actors and they just wanna stay in the room. . And I was, I was realizing I wanted to get out of the room mm-hmm.Rob Cohen: and go where the action was. And then I would direct some, some friends of mine would do low budget music videos and I would do it for free. And then I was kind of building this weird little real sort of unknowingly. And then other friends of mine that part of those Diamond Club crowds that were now becoming well known comedy performers were doing movies. And they would ask me if I would help write the promos, you know, the commercials for the movies. And foolishly or otherwise, I would be like, Yeah, if you, if you arrange for me to direct these promos, I'll definitely, I'll write it and I'll do it for free. And they're like, Okay. So because they had muscled with the studio, they would be like, Rob's the guy and he's also gonna direct it in the studio's. Like whatever you say.Rob Cohen:Right. So I realized that I was really enjoying it. I'm not saying I'm good at it, but I was really enjoying it. And then building this sort of very weird real. And then when the writer strike happened 2007, 2008 I was walking the picket line and kind of had this feeling in my head, like, if I go back into the room, I'm going to stay on the path of being a TV writer probably for many, many, many years. And this is an opportunity. I was pretty honest with myself. It's like, what I really, really want to do is be directing, like, to make the stuff instead of write the stuff. Right. So, so I decided on the picket line that I would kind of hop off the writing train and just try to keep cobbling together these weird little directing jobs. AndMichael Jamin:That's,Rob Cohen:That was when I made the term.Michael Jamin:But I remember being on the floor with you on this stage and say, I remember this conversation really well. I was like, Wow, you're gonna be a director. And I said, like, So is your, because you know, Rob's a big shot writer. I said, So is your agent helping you out with this?Rob Cohen:Right.Michael Jamin:And what was your answer?Rob Cohen:Not at all. They wouldn't not at allMichael Jamin:Discuss it. And why not didn't discussRob Cohen:It because I was making money for the agency as a writer, and they did not want to go through building me up as a director because they were and it wasn't evil, It was just, those were the facts.Michael Jamin:That's exactly right. And that's, it's not, it's because that's a hard sell. They're not gonna push that rock up the hill. They already have directors and Rob's a no one is, he's said, no one is a director. Correct. And so you, you were literally starting your career over, and the way you did it was by working for free, you know, by just doing it and not asking for permission. You just did it. You know, figure out what you can do. And I say this all the time on my podcast, on my social media, like, and I use this, I use as an example, you know, you did it. And then I, so we were at one point we were running Maron, and that's, and I use you as another example of how to get work there. So I don't remember who contacted who, but we were, Maron was our low budget show, really super low budget show. And I guess, and how did, how did we get, I don't remember. I don't remember details, but we came in contact again.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin, if you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlistRob Cohen:In what I think it was, I emailed you guys to congratulate you on the show and we just started a dialogue. And then you guys very generously asked what I was doing. And I think that's how we loosely started this conversation.Rob Cohen:Right. But it was you Sivert, Mark, who I'd known a bit in the past. And then was it Erco or was it yeah,Michael Jamin:Probably Pi Cerco.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I can't remember. I mean, you guys went way out of your way to let me have a meeting.Michael Jamin:But what's what I, IRob Cohen:Remember is in Glendale.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And what I remember about that meeting was how prepared you were. You came, we met with a lot of directors and we needed directors who were cheap, can do low budget. Who, And you, you had, you were all that I could do low budget cuz you do low budget, you do no budget. Right, Right. And you came in super prepared, and I've talked about this before as well. I, I think on my podcast, we on social media is like, you blew us away. So what you did, as I remember, you watched the presentation, which is already shot, and then you, you blocked it. You, you, you drew diagrams and you said, this is where I would've, this is how I would've shot the presentation. This is where I would've put the cameras. And see, by doing it this way, you have less setups and you don't have to move the cameras much.Michael Jamin:And because you do, because you're being efficient with your setups, you can make your day, you can get all the shots that you need because I'm not getting a ton of coverage. I'm just getting exactly what I need and I'm getting it fast. And the fact that you took all that time to draw those drawings, you, you know, you proved to us, and I remember you walked out and we were like, He's hot. You know, he's the guy, he knows how to do it. Mm-Hmm. , you know, you blew us away. So it wasn't like we did you a favor, you came in, you were prepared. You know,Rob Cohen:We, Yeah. But I really, I mean, again, I remember that meeting so clearly because I was, I, I, I loved you guys. I thought the presentation was awesome and the show had all this great promise, but I loved the vibe of what the show could be and really, really wanted that job for those reasons and to work with you guys again. But also because I knew there was a way, and it was my old writer sort of producer brain thinking like, there's limited time, there's limited money. How can you maximize the writing and the, the humor opportunities, but your production schedule is so crazy tight. How can mathematically you do both things? And that's, I remember leaving that meeting and just like, I, I didn't know what else I could've said, but it was really my experience as a writer and a producer, just like, this is how I would make this more efficient. Not that you guys were inefficient, but it was just how my brain had worked from the writing side.Michael Jamin:And that's, and I, and that's what we appreciated most about you as a director, is that you came from a writer, you were a writer, you understood the writing, you understood how to be true to the script, how to service the script. And I gotta say, it was always very easy working with you was never, you had never had any ego attached. You were like, Hey, is this, how do you like this? Oh, you don't like that? Maybe you like this. It was always, you know, course pleasing the client basically. ButRob Cohen:You guys were not only were you my friends, but you guys were the bosses along with Mark and I I would say just, it's not even from a Canadian standpoint. It's like you are hired to visually capture the script that has been written mm-hmm. . So if somebody's coming in thinking like, here's how I'm gonna put my stamp on it, or this is gonna be for my real, it's a mistake because Right. What I, what I love doing, and you guys were great show runners, was if you got Guy, if there was an idea I had, I would happily run it by you because it made it easier if you liked it. And if you said, Well, we actually thought about it this way when we wrote it, it's like, that's cool. My job is to visually capture it. Yeah. And, and also it's like this scene's running over, so here's a, here's an idea how we can pick up that time.Rob Cohen:Right. Or Mark has an idea. So it's like, okay, let's honor what Mark is saying and Right. That's to me, it's your number one goal is to take the blueprint and build a house. And it was so easy because you guys, we all knew each other, but we all came from a writing background. Yeah. And it was, it was like, well, you know, this B story's never gonna pay off this way, so what if we just save some time and just make this like a joke instead of a B story or whatever was going on. ButMichael Jamin:I remember right. I was always relieved when you, when you were directing, I was like, Oh, this is gonna be a good fun week. It's gonna be easy. It's gonna be yeah, we'll get what we need.Rob Cohen:Oh, I loved it.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Rob Cohen:I love that show.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That was, we had a blast. But it was, yeah, it was low budget. And then, so what do you say to, because it's so many people, you know, they do ask me like, Well, how do I, how do I become a director? Mm-Hmm. . And so how would you tell people, young people just starting out, I would do what you just did, but go, let's hear what you would say. No,Rob Cohen:I, I would say you know, again, to sound like an old man, times have changed mm-hmm. . and I would say that the number one thing is to show somebody that you have directed something and that can be directing it on your phone or making a short film. There's so many ways to do it inexpensively now with technology. There's no excuse. Right. My second answer would be it's to show the people that have written the show or have the script that you can not only be trusted to run the set and get all the scenes and get some options e editorially, but that you also aren't literally just filming the script that you are gonna mind some more humor. Right. Or you have a style that's appropriate and that's established in the first part that I said, which is make your own real.Rob Cohen:You know, like there's a music video I did the total budget out the door before, way before that was $2,000. Like everything. Right. And we were able to, you know, we had three minutes and 25 seconds or whatever it was to do it, but we were able to get some funny stuff within the video and it was for Virgin Records. And the one letter I got back from was like, We love this video because there's so much funny stuff in it. It wasn't about the song, but it's finding a way to sort of add, without putting the spotlight in yourself because the spotlight should be on the script.Michael Jamin:But once you have your reel, like okay, how do you, who do you show it toRob Cohen:You? If I was doing it today? I think you show it to I mean YouTube is a great example of somewhere that for free, you can exhibit your wares mm-hmm. , I would say the going, showing it to an agent is a, is an older route that I think is gonna be more frustrating because you can now start a website of yourself and send it around to people with a click. I think, you know, the great thing about short films is there's so many festivals and a lot of 'em are online that even if you make a three minute short film for a, a very inexpensive amount of money, you could literally have people around the world see it after you're done editing it. And so that's what I would do today is write something, because if you write it, it gives you extra juice.Rob Cohen:Mm-Hmm. . And then you're also not paying a writer. Right. And you, and then the way that you saw it as a writer, writers basically direct stuff in their head when they're writing mm-hmm. . So then take the initiative to film what you saw in your head originally and put down on paper. And then there's so many people that would do favors. Your friend might be an editor and he needs something for his reel. So you make a deal. It's like, if you edit this for me we'll have a finished product, then both of us have something. So I, I would say it's, it's, it's it's hustle, but it's not like that lame thing of you gotta hustle. I think it's an iPhone will make something so beautiful. And with an iPhone and a tripod, your costs are gonna be your phone and a $10 tripod.Michael Jamin:And I, I say the, I Go ahead. Continue. Right.Rob Cohen:Well, no, I just think there's no excuse to not make stuff. Yeah. But you want to, you, you want to use the internet you want to use film festivals that a lot of 'em have free submissions and start a website you're on webpage and people will find it like they, somebody's gonna see it. And as long as you keep adding to it on a fairly regular basis, it's the same as when you and I were starting, you would have to send out a packet and to meet writers for staffing meetings, they would want to either read your spec half hour or your writing packet. So this is the same thing, it's just your directing packet.Michael Jamin:Right, Right. I say this all the time, I think people think I'm nuts, but Yeah. It's just like, stop asking for permission and just do it. Yep.Rob Cohen:Absolutely.Michael Jamin:A Hundred percent. And stop and stop thinking about starting at the top. How do I sell my, how do I direct for Twentieth Century Fox? No. How do I direct for my neighbor? Yeah, That's, that's the question. Yeah.Rob Cohen:But that's what I loved about those music videos. Not to keep referencing 'em, but you're, the, the greatest thing is when the artist said yes, because I was like, Oh, this is great. I'm gonna have a music video in my real, And then you realize like that $2,000 pays for catering, pays for editing, pays for a dp, pays for lighting, pays for location, and you very quickly realize you have no money. But the challenge of that is so great and has so much value, these little jobs that people can take because when you do show it to somebody, they go, You made that whole thing for $2,000. That's ex or damn, or you made this short film for a hundred dollars and you could, I you could, if you have a Mac and an iPhone, you can make a film.Michael Jamin:I said, so funny you say, cuz I said the same exact things. Like the less money you spend, the more impressive it is because you're saying aRob Cohen:Hundred percent,Michael Jamin:You know, and, and by the way, no one's gonna be impressed by the Dolly shot or the special effects you put in because you're not gonna, you know, the Marvel movies are gonna do that a thousand times better than you can ever dream of doing it. Yeah. So it always comes down to the script and Yeah. And, and how little you can spend. That's the impressive part.Rob Cohen:Yeah. And I will say, not to over compliment you, but whenever I have meetings for directing jobs that every, the shows that they bring up almost every time that they're really curious about are Marin mm-hmm. standing against Eva, which is another Iffc show. And somebody Somewhere, which is the Bridget Everett show, which is an incredible group of people that do that, but on a fairly low budget. Yeah. And nobody wants to talk about how you pulled off some amazing big budget production because they know you had a big budget, but if you can show them that you can work lean and mean and you were involved from the ground up it has so much cred with everybody that to this day, like it happened the other day, people were talking about Marin, they did not believe what that schedule was like. Yeah. And when I explained it to 'em, their minds are blown. Yep. They, they can't believe it's possible. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. FastRob Cohen:And it is possible.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It was like two or two and a half days for a shoot,Rob Cohen:Which is two and a half days for an episode.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And ordinarily, it's like five. Right. Or how do you, have you ever directed an episode that was more than five days?Rob Cohen:I've done one that's six. Okay. but you know, me, the thing that I would say in these meetings is like basically a, a regular work week, you will have completed two episodes where most shows are barely getting one for a way bigger budget. Yeah. But the great thing about the Iffc model was they don't give you notes, they stay outta your way. They're supportive and they appreciate that you're delivering a television show for peanuts. But then everybody benefits because they've agreed to embark on a journey where everybody has skin in the game. And that, that I think also will help people get writing or directing jobs.Michael Jamin:I see. I, I think sever and I, we prefer, you know, we take whatever work we get, but we prefer working low budget for that reason. They leave you alone and you can actually be more creative. But how do you feel when you're like, I would imagine directing a high budget piece would be more stressful and, and and terrifying.Rob Cohen:It is, but because there's more writing on it. But I would say the larger budget stuff that I've directed, and it's not like major movies or anything like that. The, the pace of things is a lot slower mm-hmm. because people have more time and more money. And to me, I love going fast and lean and mean because you still have the amount of money, but why not get five takes at a scene instead of two takes. Right. And, and so if you have more money, it doesn't mean you get lazy, you keep your foot on the gas, but you just get more options. Right. And so I think learning anything, writing or directing anything from the ground up with no resources will make you be more creative and more efficient. And people, when they're hiring you, certainly for directing, appreciate how efficient you are. Because you're basically saying, Give me the keys to the bank and I will take care of your money and you'll have five choices instead of two choices. Right. And that's what it comes down to.Michael Jamin:You say choices, do you mean coverage or do you meanRob Cohen:Coverage?Michael Jamin:CoverageRob Cohen:Takes coverage? You know, Maron, we would rehearse it as we blocked it. You know, like it was, it's not like we had these long, lazy rehearsals. It was like, Okay guys, we have three hours in the living room. Let's,Michael Jamin:Do you have more rehearsals, more rehearsal times on your other shows? Yeah. We had no rehearsal time.Rob Cohen:Yeah, sometimes, but I also think that's built into the larger budget. So if it's a network, single-camera show, people can walk away to their trailers and you call him back when you're ready and then lighting director gets everything perfect. And again, like with Joe Kessler, who is our awesome DP on Marin mm-hmm. , that guy works so well just like running gun, Running gun. Yep. And there's ways to make stuff look great. And also Mark, who's not a trained actor, was delivering some really heavy stuff mm-hmm. and people are finding it as they go. Because I think that team mentality, if you're writing or directing, everybody's on board. They, they've signed up understanding what the job is and once people chip in it's gonna make it a better experience in every area.Michael Jamin:Now you, I'm changing gears here, but you also do a lot of like this Dr. Show. Like you do a lot of, like, you do commercial work, but you also do like bizarre passion projects on the side. Mm-Hmm. , Right? So talk about like that. Like what, what's, what'sRob Cohen:WellMichael Jamin:Hanging with Dr.Rob Cohen:Yeah. It was during the Pandemic and Dana Gold, Pete Aaronson and I are friends and we just, everybody was stuck inside and a lot of work had gone away because of the pandemic. And we just started talking and kind of came up on the fly of the show and realized we could make our own YouTube channel and if we put the money together ourselves, then we're the studio. So nobody's gonna stop us because we're paying for it. Right. So Dana does this incredible Dr. Zs impression and we were like, what if Dr. Zs hosted the Mike Douglas show? But he was sort of like a cheesy Sammy Davis Jr guy, and we would call in favors with friends of ours who would be real guests, shoot them remotely and make 10 episodes. Right. And it was truly a fun project during Covid. And we ended up, you know however you could describe having a small but interested following making season one of Hanging with Dr. Z. And we used the internet and Instagram and, and all that stuff, which led to us having a really successful Kickstarter campaign for season two. And the budget, I wouldn't even use the word shoestring, I would say it was like a photocopy of a shoestring, but I love doing weird, silly stuff. And a lot of it it improvised and it just tapped into all of our favorite ways to do stuff. Right. But it was working with friends, you know, during a pandemic.Michael Jamin:Right, Right. People have friends and you do project with your friends, right?Rob Cohen:Yeah. And we ne we, we have not made one penny on that show. We, we have lost money on it, but willingly because it going, what I said earlier, we could guarantee it would exist because we were creating it and paying for it. So there's nothing stopping us. Why not? Like why not do it?Michael Jamin:People often say to me like, you know, they want, or they want me to read this, they want me to make their career. And it's like, you don't need me to make your career. You need three funny friends. There are three friends with a similar vision. Yeah. Do something with them. And that's exactly how you, that's how you started. That's how I started. Yeah. And so that's why I say stop asking for stop begging for permission to just start, you know, doing it. Just do it.Rob Cohen:The thing that, like using hanging with Dr. Z as an example, and only because it's something that I was involved in that came out of some friends of ours who were politically active when the elections were happening, the 2020 elections mm-hmm. . And there was a group that had reached out to my friend Colin to make a campaign to stop Mitch McConnell. And so they asked Dana and I like, Could you guys help us out? And there's zero money involved, but are you guys interested? So Dana and I just started to shoot the breeze and we thought, let's just shoot Dr. Zs basically talking about why Mitch McConnell should be stopped. We shot it in his backyard and his girlfriend at the time played Nova and he played Dr. Zs and we did it in front of a, a green screen sheet and we knew we were gonna put the Statue of Liberty from Planet Apes behind them and shot a political ad in two hours.Rob Cohen:Right. And then we had so much fun with that and the, this little weird ad kind of did well enough within the small circle of people that love Dr. Z's political ads, that that's what led us to talking about the talk show. But again, it was just homemade. And my point is, I think whether people call it a passion project or whatever they wanna call it, if they have an idea and they write it or they direct it, or they do both, you immediately eliminate people saying, You can't do it because you did it. But more importantly, the people that could give you other opportunities respect the fact that you did it and didn't wait around for somebody to give you an opportunity. Right. Cause you will get the opportunities by creating your own opportunities.Michael Jamin:And that's, that's one thing I always admire about you, is you're, you're very entrepreneurial that way. And it's like, Yeah. You follow your heart.Rob Cohen:Yeah. But I'm also convinced, like as flukey as my career started, I'm convinced that it's gonna end. Every job will be my, my last. So I'm trying to keep more plate spinning Uhhuh. But I also love, you know, like whether it's, you know, somebody somewhere is such an amazing experience because of Bridget and Hannah and Paul who created, and Carolyn Strauss and hbo. And it is the nicest group of people and the most enjoyable environment where you can, every single person on that show in rural Illinois is there because they want to be there. Mm-Hmm. . And that energy drives that show where people watching it on TV can feel that vibe. Right. And, and whatever people think of that show, it's like summer camp where every year you get together and people are so excited to take very little money to be part of this experience.Rob Cohen:Right. And that the same thing can happen with person X deciding they want to make a short film or they wanna make fake commercials or whatever, because they're gonna set the tone and they're gonna create the vibe. So I think it's a mistake if somebody's like, I only wanna do cool stuff, or, you know, nobody's gonna let me do my ideas. It's like, Yeah, you're not letting yourself do your ideas. So when you told me you were starting your course, I'm like, the biggest obstacle to somebody making anything these days is the person who's bitching about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That was me. Yeah.Rob Cohen:No, but, but it's all doable. Can you guarantee success? No. But you will gain amazing respect and opportunities by having it be tangible instead of complaining about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Rob Cohen:And that's just a fact.Michael Jamin:That's just a fact. Well, where do you see, where do you, because the industry has changed so much since we started, What? I don't know. What's, what's your prognosis for the future? What do you see? People ask me this, like, I don't know.Rob Cohen:I think, what doesMichael Jamin:The present look like?Rob Cohen:Well, I don't know, but I think it's quite obvious that streamers of the future and broadcast networks are not the future. Mm-Hmm. . So you and I were lucky enough to start in sort of part of the glory days of the nineties when mm-hmm. , you know, you had multiple staffing meetings, you know, you would just, it would be that sort of dating circuit for a few weeks where you would bump into people going in and out of offices. And you started off like having four offers. And then it would be two offers, and then it would be one offer. And then it goes from you hoping you do get an offer, or hoping you get a meeting and you could see the tide is turned. So to me, the future is definitely streaming and smaller budget, shorter orders mm-hmm. . And if somebody is expecting it to go back to people paying you a lot of money to do 22 episodes of a TV show a year, I think that is very foolish. Yeah. In my opinion, because it'll never go back to that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Rob Cohen:But it shouldn't go back to that.Michael Jamin:Well, it is what it is. But, but no,Rob Cohen:But there's no more musty tv. Like Right.Michael Jamin:YouRob Cohen:Know, look at the Emmys. Like, it's the, the show with the biggest amount of TV stars on it that just aired, had the lowest ratings ever. And it's not because of one person, it's because they've lost their viewership. Right. It's, they, they're not gonna get it back. People aren't gonna wake up one day and go, Gosh, I can't wait to watch this award show on broadcast. Like, those days are over.Michael Jamin:Right. And so it's always about, it's about hustling, it's about getting work, looking for the next job. Mm-Hmm. about doing your own stuff. Right. Yeah. And, and at the end of day it's gotta be, it's also has to be good. Whatever you're working on, like, you know, has to be great. Right. Well, IRob Cohen:Mean, look, I've done more than my share of crap and largely in my own hand. And I think that an opportunity is an opportunity. You know, there's a lot of credits I don't have in my IMDB page because the show was either a deeply unpleasant experience, or it's such a crappy show. You would spend so much time explaining it to people that they would fall asleep. And so the reason that I've called those credits is because it's, I'm grateful for the experience, but it was a stepping stone to what, what I wanted to do. And if I hadn't taken crappy show X, it wouldn't have led to a more positive thing. And, and I think like what you're doing is encouraging people to pursue an idea that they really believe in and learn the basics of how to write it and shoot it. Mm-Hmm. and just that small amount of initiative, even if you never show your project to anybody, you've made it, It's, it's an immense amount of satisfaction. Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin:. That's right. Incredible. Exactly right. And I, I said that as well. And if you didn't enjoy it, then this Hollywood thing is not for you. Cuz if you're not enjoying it for free, you're not gonna enjoy it when someone's banging, you just, you, you're just gonna get money for it. That's it. Yeah.Rob Cohen:And there's people that do that, and they make a fortune. But it's also, you know, like, not to keep talking about when you and I started, but mm-hmm. just shoot movie was in the nineties, and if you said NBC in the nineties had so many comedies, some were good and some were terrible. But now if you look at nbc, are they doing any comedies? Like maybe two?Michael Jamin:Yeah, maybe. Yeah.Rob Cohen:Yeah. So, so it's the same place, but it's the, the tide is clear. So for somebody to aspire to working on wacky old timey NBC comedies, it's very foolish. However, if they are a self starter and, and determine what their roadmap is, nobody will stop them. You can't guarantee success, but at least you've tried it and you might be successful trying it and pursue what you like.Michael Jamin:See Rob Cohen is Rob Cohen. Everyone is, is there something where, is there something, What, what, Is there something people can do to follow? What do you, what what do you wanna, Can we plug something about what you're doing? Can we No, no. Can,Rob Cohen:No, I mean, I'm not on social media. I, I'm I just, I I'm genuinely appreciative of the projects that invite me to be a small part of it. And those happen, you know, here and there. And there's nothing to really follow. But I, I just think I'm excited to see this on your, your podcast. You've built a great following.Michael Jamin:I'll say this, when I need a pick me up, when I need a little encouragement, I call you mm-hmm. to kick me in the ass. Right. So I, you're just a great dude, and I appreciate you so much and for coming on and for sharing, but you thought was what was boring, but it was not boring at all. I, I learned some things about you.Rob Cohen:Yeah. I was a disaster as a young man, and now I'm an older disaster.Michael Jamin:, that's soRob Cohen:What you're, what you're doing, I know you're wrapping it up, but IMichael Jamin:Well, that's okay. I I don't wanna take more of your time, but go ahead. No, you'reRob Cohen:Not. That's, you're not, I'm, you've got as, as long as you want. I, I really think that if somebody wants to be a writer or director or producer or an editor, then do it. Like, again, you don't have to show it to anybody, but if somebody writes something really great, you can show it to people and someone will recognize that you have talent, but nobody's gonna be able to know anything about what you want to do if you haven't, if you can't manifest it. Right. So you know, again, like when you guys gave me that opportunity on Marin, unbeknownst to me, it, it was a huge help in me getting my next directing job because it, it legitimized me as a director, and then the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. But if I hadn't had that opportunity, it would be a struggle until there was another opportunity. Right.Michael Jamin:So you wanna It would happen eventually.Rob Cohen:Yeah. But you wanna be prepared for those opportunities. Right, right. So I just think that's just common sense. But what you're doing now, like if I told you you're gonna be doing this five years ago, you would, you would laugh.Michael Jamin:I would've said absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Wisdom, Rob. Hustle. Hustle muscle. That's it. I can't thank you enough for coming on, coming on the show time, man. Thank you for being my first guest. I, I didn't, I'm surprised I let you talk so much. I thought maybe I'd be doing all the talkingRob Cohen:. No, I'm surprised I talk so muchMichael Jamin:. I'm surprised. I'll let you get a word edgewise. Yeah. I dog a lot. Dude, thank you so much again. AndRob Cohen:Anytime. I love it.Michael Jamin:Don't go anywhere. We're gonna, we're gonna have a post more to wrap up after this, but Sure, sure. Thank you, everyone, for listening. And until next time,Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs

Det er endelig tid for VM i Eugene og vi blir bedre kjent med Jakob Ingebrigtsens konkurrenter. Ved hjelp av Inside running podcast har vi fått lydklipp med Oliver Hoare, Josh Kerr og Stewart McSweyn. Hør hvordan om høydetelt, yndlingsøkter, treningsprinsipper og vanlige treningsøkter som Jakobs argeste utfordrere gjennomfører. Jann er på reise til USA under dagens opptak og får hjelp av Sivert (6) og Kristian til å spå hvordan det går med Ingebrigtsens dobling, favorittene og de andre norske på distanse. I tillegg blir det ukas økt, lytterspørsmål og stort og smått fra utholdenhetsverden. Hør episoden i appen NRK Radio

Michael and Phil talk about different ways to break into Hollywood and most of it isn't what you'd think. Learn how Michael broke in, how Phil broke in, and the right way to think about accessing Hollywood.Show NotesOnline Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeWarner Brother's Writer's Workshop - https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/writers-workshop/Marc Maron - http://www.wtfpod.com/Rhett & Link - https://mythical.com/Joe Rogan - https://www.joerogan.com/Sarah Cooper's Netflix Show - https://www.netflix.com/title/81314070Sarah Cooper's CBS Pilot - https://deadline.com/2021/04/amy-york-rubin-to-direct-sarah-cooper-cindy-chupack-cbs-comedy-pilot-1234726403/Blaire Erskine - https://www.instagram.com/blaire.erskine/?hl=enTwirlyGirl - https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/Michael (00:00):Even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we got to be on a great show, but for, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than none at all.Michael (00:25):All right. Welcome everyone today. We're talking about different paths to break into Hollywood, cuz you all wanna break into Hollywood, right? Yeah. That's the goal. That's the goal. So there's just so many different ways. Like people say, well, how do I get in? And there's, there's really no, obviously there's no one way. It's not like becoming a doctor where you go to Med School and that's what you, you know, eventually you become a, I guess you become a Resident, then you an Intern. And then, you know, you, you, you work your way as, as a, become a, a Physician or a Surgeon or whatever. There's no one way. And, uh, which is good, but it's a little it's must be a little frustrating too for people.Phil (01:00):Yeah. And I would say that this is, you know, if I go back to like 2000, I've known I wanted to be a writer since I was like 12 years old. Um, but when I go back and think about when I first started seriously studying screenwriting, that was, uh, I was trying to learn how to write a screenplay. I was learning formatting. I was using my software and using like, figuring out to do all that stuff. But the majority of my time was how do I get an agent? How do I break into Hollywood? What do I need to do to work in television or film?Michael (01:28):Yeah. And, and even like, thinking about like, let's see, like, let's see. When I, when I, I wanted to be a TV writer when I watched Cheers and I thought back then, this is how little I knew I was in high school. Well maybe if I start out as a grip, I can work my way up to writer. Like it doesn't even work thatPhil (01:42):Way. You knew what a grip was. At leastMichael (01:44):I didn't, I, I just saw that name. I didn't know what a grip did, but obviously, and it's not even, that's not even working your way up. Like people that's their job and they're happy. They don't wanna be writers that they wanna be grips. That's what they, that's what they want. So it's not like working your way up. It's not like grips below writer. It's like, that's, that's crazy. Um, but, and so, and then some people think, well, I just have to get an agent and an agent will get me work. It's like, no, the agent doesn't wanna have to work for you. The agent wants, basically wants you to do the work yourself and take 10%. That's every agent they want to, you know, they don't wanna have to hustle. They want someone who already is hustling and they can just make money from and like, well, that doesn't sound right. Well, but if you were an agent you'd want the same thing, you don't like, we all, no one wants to work hard. They want, they want something to come easy. So the agent's the same thing. The agent wants to have someone who's just on the cusp of breaking in. So there's a number of ways that people talk about. And I think one way we can talk about, uh, I think a lot of people put a lot of time and energy into our, our screenplay contests.Phil (02:42):Yeah. Screenplay contests, film fell, festival screenplay, contests, and, um, pitch fests are kind of the big three things that I see a lot of people in your group, as well as, you know, other writers I know, and things that were recommended ways to break in. Mm-hmm, we're doing these types of things and you know, I'm sure we're probably gonna get a lot of flack for this, from the people in these industries. If we haven't already at this point with some of the podcast content we've put out. Um, but it does not seem from a professional perspective that these are venues and avenues to get into the industry.Michael (03:13):Yeah. I don't want, I, I talked about, we talked about this a couple days, a couple episodes ago, so I don't want to hit on it too much, but yeah. I mean, it seems, I'll just real fast. Say like if you were, there are these festivals or pitch fest where like they'll take unknowns and let you pitch to Hollywood insiders. So just think about it from the other way around. If you were Hollywood insider and you wanted to make a, have a project put up, you had money to make a movie or a TV show, like why would you go out to a, an unknown, you just put a call out to a Hollywood agent. Hey, I want to get a show off the ground. Uh, send me some writers. Like you wouldn't go, you know, you wouldn't go to a pitch fest, you'd take, you want a professional. Why would you want an in an amateur, someone hasn't done it before.Phil (03:53):Now this is something I'm thinking about that I've not thought about in a while. But one of the best classes I had in film school was actually taught by my buddy rich. He was, he became my friend after. Um, but he had a class that was like the business of film and television. And he would bring in industry professionals who were working in New Mexico at the time or visiting because they were shooting a show in New Mexico. He would bring them in and we'd spend an hour and he would interview them for us. And I thought it was probably one of the most valuable things because you're hearing these people talk about what they look for. And at the end, he would give us an opportunity to pitch. If that person was a producer, if that person was a director and there were a couple times I'd pitch something and afterwards, those people would come up to me and give me their cards and say, I would love to read your script. Right, right. Now, nothing came of them. And five, six years down the road, I understand why I just wasn't ready. The script wasn't good enough to produce. Although the idea was good and enough, good enough to get them interested. The execution wasn't there.Michael (04:54):Yeah. It's all about the execution.Phil (04:55):Yeah. Yeah. So, so I definitely have seen that happen at some lower film as well, where you sit down and you sit with these industry professionals. And I think there's a lot of value in meeting those people, but it's typically those people are independent producers and independent directors and they're out trying to get their stuff made just as much as you are.Michael (05:17):They're hustling as much as you are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they're not gonna, they're not in a position to set you up. Right. Right, right. Then there are other programs that like, let's say like Warner Brothers has like, or Warner Brothers Writing Program, like that's different. Uh, and Disney has like, like fellowships and stuff like that. And those are definitely worth pursuing. And those could be a great entry wayPhil (05:37):To, and you won you and, uh, your writing partner won the Warner Brothers.Michael (05:39):No, we didn't win. We, we got into, we were accepted to the Warner Brothers Writing Program.Phil (05:44):I call that a win person.Michael (05:47):But this is how it was. And this was many, many years ago and things have changed. But basically what you did back then was, uh, you get accepted, which is, which is hard. It's hard to get accepted. And then you have to pay Warner brothers. I think we paid maybe $400 each or something. I'm sure it's a lot more now. And we paid Warner brothers for the right to be accepted to this class to sign. And, and if you were to the top graduate of this class, uh, you would, they would try to place you on one of their shows. And back then Warner Brothers had a ton of sitcoms. Like they had a, they had, they just had like the Friday night block, they had so many shows that it was like, the odds were not terrible. Like they would try to place you on one of their shows. But if you, if they did, because you were graduate of the class, you would be earning the contracts that you'd earn like a third of Writer's Guild minimum. It was something like something really terrible like that. And so here only in Hollywood, do you pay to have a contract to sign a contract that gives you a third of what everyone else is getting paid and, and you're paying for this terrible contract. Like, that's crazy.Phil (06:48):That's fascinating. But I think that speaks to the competitiveness of this industry. Yeah. Because everyone thinks they have a good story idea. Everyone thinks they're a writer and it's so competitive you're literally paying people for opportunities to work for less money. It's insane.Michael (07:03):Yeah. And then we, didn't what happened was that class, you know, there, I remain friends with several people from that, from that, that, that core group of people that were maybe with 30 or 40 of us and only a handful of went on to actually be, become professional writers, everyone else kind of flamed out at one point or the other, uh, cause it is hard to break in. But, um, you know, we were, I, I do remain friends, but they, they chose a golden child. There was a golden child who's chosen pretty early the executives of the program. They, I think they decided that's the golden one. That's the one who will get work. And everyone else is like, well, but, but that, and, and so pretty early on, it was my partner and I could tell that, um, that we were not gonna be the golden people.Michael (07:45):And so we were not chosen when we graduated the class, they didn't try staffing us. It just so happened that our script, uh, man, our, that we had a script that was read, um, by the, by Steve Levitan who was at that time created brand new show called Just Shoot Me. And he read our script because our, his assistant read it and liked it and passed it on to him. And so he hired us. He goes, Hey, yeah, we wanna hire, I wanna hire you, uh, to be on, Just Shoot Me. And then we had to go back to, so we tell the people at Warner Brothers. Yeah. So, you know, our contracts is up and they're like, wait, well, not so fast. Now that, that Steve, Leviton's interested in you let's see if, let's see if we can get you on one of our you know, crappy TV shows and pay you a third. And then, so we basically had to bribe our way out that contract because, uh, you know, suddenly, suddenly they were interested in us, but only because someone else was interested in us, but before, before that they were not interested.Phil (08:37):Yeah, this is like the, the guy girl situation where the girls overlooked until someone else is interested. All of a sudden my eyes are open and I realized I never realized what was right before me this entire time. Except in this case, it's motivated by dollars.Michael (08:49):Yeah. Right. And so we got out of that, that, that was that made, that was history for us, like, okay, great. Now we're gonna Just Shoot Me now. We're basically set us off on our career path. But so that, but even still, like, you know, even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we've got to be on a great show, but for it, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than nonePhil (09:17):At all. I don't see that any different than, you know, I talked about the writers Guild foundation and the golden ticket that they have. Where you get invited to every single event, guaranteed seats. You just RSVP to say, you're gonna be there. They have your name on a seat. You show up front row and you have extra opportunity to interact and network with these people. And I met some amazing people. There was a guy from Canada who was down here, they were shooting the pilot of his show. I sat next to him at an event, talked to him. He asked for my script, he read my script. He sent me notes that were very helpful. That's that's nice. So, so I don't see any difference it's again, it's an investment in yourself. You're just is taking that opportunity. And, and I want to point out here too, because you know, there are a lot of people in your social media and I see the kind of mindset.Phil (10:05):"Well, I don't have any money." "I work as a PA barely get by, etc. etc," look ultimately it's about making sacrifices and sacrifice. You know, the way we define sacrifice from a theological perspective is "to make holy", like you're taking something to make what and you're to make holy holy I'm giving up something because I find this other thing more valuable. It is more sacred that's interest to me. Okay. So if you take the approach. Yeah. So if you're taking the approach of my writing career is sacred to me because it is really why I am here on this planet is to be a writer, then stop drinking Starbucks for a month. Yeah. Seven bucks a day, times 30 days. It's a lot of money, right. Even if it's only once a day, once a week, you're going, yeah. That stuff adds up. There are ways to win in the margins, as we say, in the, in the accounting world. Yeah. Like you can win in the margins and, and save up and you can get a license to Final Draft and learn how to do that. So you can be a Writer's Assistant. You can afford these Golden Ticket opportunities. The, that I think is just you approach. It is you have war chest there's funds there. And it is to be invested to help me pursue my reason for being on the planet. Right.Michael (11:16):Yeah. Yeah. And that, and, and so I've worked with so many inspiring people who couldn't get a break, so they made their own break and that's how they got into Hollywood. And I, I'm gonna list them because they're all incredibly successful people. The first one was Marc Maron, who he had a show IFC and my partner, Sivert and I, we, we ran that show for four years. And Marc is an interesting guy, cuz he was a, he was a comedian and he worked for a while in, in radio. And then I think he got, I dunno if he got fired or he left radio or whatever. But, um, he was basically cold. He couldn't book rooms, he was cold. And so, but he's a creative type and he had a create. And so this is back then, he, there was a thing called podcasting.Michael (12:01):No one knew what podcasts were and it was just a forum for him to talk into a microphone. And God knows if anyone was gonna listen, but he was gonna put on his little show and, and uh, interview people. And he's really, you know, he's good at interviewing. And uh, and that was it. But no one knew how he was gonna monetize, but he just did it because he, you know, he was putting, putting himself out there and eventually that podcast and his is one of the, one of the most successful podcasts out there. It's always in like the top five on apple. Yeah.Phil (12:29):He interviewed Barack Obama.Michael (12:30):Yeah. In his garage, in his garage President, The PresidentPhil (12:34):Garage, The President of the United States came here and went to someone's garage to be on a podcast.Michael (12:39):Yeah. And because that podcast blew up, uh, Marc his, that reignited his comedy career and it got him a chance to get a, a TV show on IFC. That was the one we ran called Maron. And because that show kind of did really well, it got him on Glow. And then because of Glow, he gots all these other opportunities. Yeah. But it's not because he was begging Hollywood, let me in, he's like, screw it. I'm doing, I'm making something worthwhile and I will build an audience that way.Phil (13:06):Well, it summed up as he provided so much value people couldn't ignore it.Michael (13:10):Yeah. Right. And he did right. He just created on his owning, but he made it is creation good. The same, another example, um, were Rhett & Link. So re link where these two guys, we ran their show, which you worked on, uh, uh, they had a show on YouTube Red and it was a sitcom, but they're not com they're not TV writers. So they needed to have, uh, they created this show, but they needed to showrunners to actually write the episodes and kind of do all that work. And so they hired me, my partner to run their show, but who I who's written link. These are just two guys out in, I think from North Carolina, they just like, they were just two, no ones who started a YouTube channel. Um, and that was it. They did. And it, this is before YouTube was really a big thing.Michael (13:51):They just started putting up these shows and they, and they, these their, so they have good chemistry and they just kind of do wacky things. They would sit in a giant vat of oatmeal and do kind of like kind of all little mini contests with each other. And they had good chemistry and that show kind of blew up and became so big on YouTube that YouTube said to them, Hey, you guys are amazing. Uh, we'll give you your own TV show. And, but it wasn't like they weren't be, they didn't be YouTube. They just did their own thing. And Hollywood came to them and there's so many instances of Hollywood instead of people begging, you know, please Hollywood, let me in. They create something so amazing that Hollywood comes to them.Phil (14:30):Yeah. I think you could look at Joe Rogan. I think you could look at most of these people. I mean, you can split it off and it goes back to what we talked about in another podcast about "nicheing down: and finding your niche and owning that. Like, that's really how you break through these things. Those guys were, are advertisers, marketers. Yeah. And they, they leveraged that medium to make fake commercials. They do free commercials for businesses and they're so wild that's how they broke through on YouTube early on.Michael (14:55):Yeah. Because they were doing, no one was paying 'em to do this. No. Right. They just did it on their own. There's a woman over who I discovered at the beginning of the pandemic named Sarah Cooper. And I, I found her on, I think Twitter, but she was probably on all the platforms. And she would just, basically, she was a struggling actor, comedic actor who could not get arrested. She couldn't get anything, any kind of work. And so she'd says, screw it. And so she would basically take these speeches that Trump would make and kind of lip sync it. But wasn't, she was doing more than lip sync and she was adding, uh, her own personal touches and making it funny and doing things in the background and her funny facial expressions really plus it. So it wasn't just like standard, uh, lip syncing. She really, she put a lot of craft into it and because these things were so good, it was like, she was... You know, everyone had a noticer you, you could not watch this and think, wow. Like it was amazing her skill and her talent that she brought to it. And because of that, she, she became so big that Hollywood came her and gave her a Netflix special. And then they gave her, I think it was a show on CBS, a pilot that I didn't think I got to air, but she got all these opportunities, uh, because she just was like, screw it. I'm gonna be the master of my own domain here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it myself. Yeah.Phil (16:06):Yeah. It's seizing the opportunity. The old saying, "fortune favors the bold."Michael (16:10):Yeah. Creating an opportunity. And there's so many people like that. Another woman, Blaire Erskine, I think, I think that's how I pronounce her name. And I discovered her on, uh, on, uh, she would make these kind of funny, uh, videos on Twitter and they, but they were so good that that got discovered. Eventually. I think she's now a, uh, a writer on Kimel like, that's how she broke in. And she was not anyone she's like, screw it. I'm gonna do it myself. But it was good. Content was good.Michael (16:37):Hi guys, Michael Jamen here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, "I heard from a script reader in the industry." And I was like, wait, what?Michael (16:56):Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're for this. I mean, that just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is, is coming along quite nicely. And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers who are new on, on writing staffs, a lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They finally get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not gonna happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff outta your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not gonna happen. Let's just be honest. So go find me, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous rant.Phil (18:02):So let's say that you're a writer and you're not like an on camera talent. You don't necessarily care to put yourself out there. That way. There might be some trepidation, you know, for me, I have, um, uh, an agent and I get auditions all the time and I have to self tape and I get just tremendous anxiety every time I have to be in front of the camera. Yeah. You know, it's just something I'm working through. And I, and I do it and I force myself to do those things because it's something I want to do. Um, but let's say I'm not, let's say that. I'm just, you know, someone who wants to rise up through a traditional route and let's say I'm a PA, right. What kinds of things do you think make a PA stand out to forge that path or create their own path?Michael (18:41):You know, we... we've talked... you're I think an excellent example of this, because you always say yes. When someone has a question or a problem. Yes, I will fix it. I will take care of it. No, relax, it's done already. It's already done relax. And so there are a number of instances I can think of you where, especially when it comes to tech, when it comes to something computer-related, because you would know so much about that. If a writer is having a problem with their comp, like you will show up, I I'll fix that for you. I will take care of, and you'll, I maybe you'll, you'll expand on, on that a little bit more, but, um, it's offering, what else do you offer? So even if it's not writing stuff, you offer these other skills that you have and you offer them freely. And because of that, you endear, you endear yourself to people and people wanna help you in exchange for that.Phil (19:23):Yeah. And I, and I think that it's an important note here, too, that when I do that, it is sincere that I just want to help. I am not doing it. It with any expectation that something is gonna come from it, right. It is that I understand that the best way for me to stick around is to be so valuable that I am invaluable. I, I, right. I, they want me around because I solve so many headaches for them.Michael (19:46):And you weren't charge you weren't you weren't saying, Hey, this is outside of my pay grade. I should get paid extra for this. You're like, no, I will gladly do it.Phil (19:53):Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I view it this way. Like, I'm not a member of a union. There are no union rules dictating what I can and can't do. And so I have opportunity now to over serve people.Michael (20:05):Let me, let me jump in here, Phil, cuz a lot of people don't know how you and I met. So we we've known each other probably since maybe 2010 or so.Phil (20:14):10, 10. Yeah, probably 10 or 11 somewhere there.Michael (20:15):So you were a stranger to me and my wife has a business, an online, uh, she sells, she, she manufactures girls dresses called TwirlyGirl. And so she at the time needed to build a website. She found a company that was gonna build a website. It was kind of a custom made site. It was, we found this place that over pro almost and underdelivered and uh, and Phil was working there. And uh, maybe I don't wanna tell a story wrong, but this is how I remember it is Cynthia, my wife was really kind of distraught was like, well, we paid all this money and you're not giving us what we want. And, and you got at some point, I don't know how you got on the phone.Phil (20:49):You were, I can tell you how so I was in sales at that company at the time. And I kind of saw the writing on the wall that they were gonna downsize my department and I didn't want to be there. What I wanted to do was work with the guy who was teaching all the things I was selling and he ran the other department or the account management department. So I went in and applied for a position there. I got hired and they transitioned me to account management. And your account, your wife's account was the first account I was handed. And they were like, we're giving you this account, do whatever you need to, to make this person happy because the sales rep oversold them to like, to a, a far extent promised way too much. Right. And so that's how I got on the phone with Cynthia.Michael (21:32):And then from what I remember, we were pretty and you're like, listen, I can't, uh, and this, you were overpromised and underdelivered. I'm gonna fix this as best as I can on my own, on my own dime. That's how I remember it. I will do whatever it takes. And because I just feel bad. I wanna make this right for you.Phil (21:51):Yeah. It, it ultimately ended up being some nights and weekends. And you know, I remember one experience where I got a call from your wife and she was in tears because she had accidentally deleted like a fat chunk of your website. Right. And I was actually up at Sundance where I was volunteering, cuz that's how I was in the industry at the time. Right. I just needed to be involved somehow. And I come down off the mountain and I've got this voicemail from Cynthia and I call her back and she's literally in tears cuz she thinks she has just deleted half of her website. Yeah, I remember that. And I was, and I was like, I was like, I promise you, like, we're gonna figure this out. I don't know what we can do, but let me see what we can do. And so, because I took the same approach, at work too where I would go in to the engineering department and I would say, what do you need from me as a sales rep to make your job easier? And then as an account manager, what do you, what do you need me to get you so that you can be as efficient as possible? I called one of the engineers on a weekend and I said, "Hey look, this client has made this mistake. Do we have any old versions?" And he was so ingratiated to me that he got in on his time on a Saturday night at like 10 o'clock at night, found the old version of the site and restored over the weekend.Michael (23:01):For her. Right. And so, and that, and you were a hero and you fixed it right away because of, and so because of that, now my wife felt indebted to you because you had done this great thing, you know, and you made her stop crying in this.Phil (23:13):At the same point, that to be clear to everybody listening, I have no idea who Cynthia is. Right. I have never talked to Michael at this point. Right. I just know here's someone who was sold a bill of goods that they, we couldn't honor. And I needed to do anything I could to feel ethically okay about this.Michael (23:29):Right. And so Cynthia says over the next couple weeks or whatever, she's talking with you and you somehow the conversation turns to what you want. You wanna become a TV or a screenwriter.Phil (23:39):It was actually, she's like, Hey my, my husband, Michael's gonna get on while he waits, um, for his next show to start. And I was like, oh, show. She's like, oh yeah, he's gonna be running Marc Maron's new show. Right. And I was like, okay. And that's when things kind of clicked. And so we ended the call and I Googled her name and an IMDB page shows up and I was like, oh, she was tree flower on angry beavers, which I watched. And she was on Admiral monsters and you was on friends. And then I Googled you. And I was like, oh my gosh, he is a writer. And then that's, that's how I approached it was on the next call. Right?Michael (24:13):Because you, we owed you so much. Cynthia's like, no, oh my husband, he's happy to help you be more than happy to talk to you about TV and screenwriting and all that stuff. And because of that, because of what you had done, you're attitude, which was, let me give, give, give, now we feel indebted to you and we wanna help you back. And that's how you and I, Mel met. And that's how you ultimately broke into the business. Cause I, I wound up getting you, uh, jobs on two of the shows that I was on. Yep. Right? Yep. Yep. And that's how you got it. And it wasn't because you asked for you didn't beg me, you didn't ask me for anything you gave first and I returned. Yeah.Phil (24:47):And, and you know, I'm, I, I am grateful for that. Again, none of that comes from a place of you owe me because I did. Right. Right. Look what I've done for you. It's simply what can I do? And to that same point on that first show where I was a, a PA I was day playing as I've talked about on other episodes. And they ultimately brought me in to be the office PA and I did the same thing. I said, what skill sets do I have to serve the people above me? Like how can I go in this extra time? And I approach it from this perspective, again, like I'm not in a union, there's no one dictating what I can and can't do. And so ultimately I look at it as I have sold 12 hours of my day to these people. Like, I have sold my time. They own me for 12 hours. So what can I do in the next 12 hours to be so productive that they want to keep me around? And I still get my bosses from that first job from Rhett & Link. They call me five years later and they offer me things. Right. Hey, and it's like, Hey, my buddy asked me if I know someone who wants to have this job, no experience to, they're willing to train. I thought of you immediately. Right, right. That kind of stuff. Yeah.Michael (25:52):Doors open that way. Right.Phil (25:53):Yeah. And so, you know, as I thought a lot about this, and we talked about this in your, in your private group, in your course, um, recently, but there's some questions that I think of, and I would encourage anyone in this situation to go through. So what can I do to serve this person? Like whoever it is, like, whether it's, you know, Carrie Clifford, who's a writer on her on Tacoma, FD. Like she loves tuna. She absolutely loves tuna, but she's also very picky about her tuna. And so I literally kept a whiteboard list of her favorite tuna places. So whenever I'd go around to get lunch, if it was her day to decide, I would remind her which place she liked her tuna from. Right, right. Right.Michael (26:28):Little things. Right.Phil (26:29):Yeah. Like one of the writers, like these very specific smoked, um, pistachios from Whole Foods. So I would go outta my way to pick those up for him so that he had something he liked in the room. Yeah. And it's not, it's not kissing butt, but it's not sucking up it's again, how can I serve this person? Right. Yeah. Because.Michael (26:47):Yeah. Yeah. And that comes, that comes and, and that exactly that comes, it helps it's it's in your own best interest to, to do stuff like that. Right. But people don't think of it like that. They just don't.Phil (26:57):They think of it as it seems like a lot of people think of it as how I being taken advantage of,Michael (27:02):Or they think advantage of me, or it's also like, what can you do for me? I, I, I need you to help me, help me break into Hollywood, help me, help me, help me instead of the other way around, which is, let me help you.Phil (27:13):Yeah. And so, to, to answer that question, the next thing I would ask myself is what are my unique skill sets, right? What, what are my hobbies, passions, and, and what do I have? That's valuable to my chain of command, like thinking up the chain of command, whether it's, you know, I'm the writer's PA and I report to the script coordinator, how can I make the script coordinator's job easier? Mm-hmm how can I do this? And, and I think this mindset a really good way to think about this. I had the opportunity to speak at, uh, a business college a couple years ago. And I sat in, in the class, they just said, I did a presentation for some friends of mine, about a business that I was managing at the time. And the professor said, the best thing you can ask in an interview is how can I relieve a burden, this, a burden off of your shoulder?Phil (27:59):What burdens can I relieve from your shoulders? Right. And it seemed a very formal way to think about it. But if you approach everyone above you with that mindset, like, what burdens do you have? Like, how can I help carry some of the weight here? They will gladly give that to you. Yeah. Because it's, and it catches people off guard too, because it's not likely. And so here's just an example of that. So for a wrap gift for season three of Tacoma, um, we got the idea of doing a yearbook. Well, I happened to be on the yearbook staff for two years in my high school. Like, and that I graduated in 2004. Right, so this was 2002, three and four that I was on the staff. I don't remember technically how to use InDesign. I played a little bit with it since, but it came up and I was volunt-told I had to do this.Phil (28:44):And someone was like phone it in, just get a template offline. And there was a very low expectation of this, but what I said is if I'm gonna do this, just let me do it. Right. So I literally, we set up a photo booth. I brought my camera, I took photos of everyone on the staff. We had COVID there monitoring to make sure we were safe. I went through, I photo edited every single one of those. I built the design and the layout inside of InDesign. And I worked with, um, Cindy, our, our 2nd AD, who was taking photos of everyone, all season. And we built an actual hardbound yearbook that we gave to every member of the staff. Right. And it was something that, you know, the people who were in charge of building these gifts, like the production supervisor, the, you, the, the UPM the, uh, Production Office Coordinator, they were grateful that I went the extra mile because it took something and leveled it up. Yeah. Right. But furthermore, and I think this is another key aspect. I went and did extra work to find a place where I could go and save them money, which enabled them to give these really cool heated jackets to everybody. Right. If figure out one of those. Right. I did get one of those. We had the ability to upgrade that, to like a jacket with a heater in it, because I was able to save like three grand on the printing cost by doing this extra stuff.Michael (29:58):Right. Right. I didn't know that.Phil (29:59):Just little, little, little things that, you know, that you've, you know, acquired throughout life. They go a long way. Like I was listening to another podcast and there was another writer who said, she went in into an interview and she had done her research on IMDB. And she's like, oh, I didn't know you wrote on this show. I really liked that. And the writer's like, well, I actually didn't write on that. That's a mistake on my IMDB and writer was embarrassed. And then afterwards, she went and using her knowledge of IMDB pro fixed their listings, and then emailed them and say, Hey, I just wanna apologize for my mistake. I just wanna let you know, I took care of it for you. Right. And she got hired on that show because she was willing to go that extra mile. Yeah. And she solved a problem for her boss that wasn't even her boss yet. Yeah.Michael (30:42):Yeah. Isn't that great. Yeah. Yeah. People don't think like, most people don't think that way, but if you can get into that mindset, like doors will open.Phil (30:50):Yeah. And, and like another example, it's like little things. Like one of the Whowrunners came to me and said, Hey, I need to get 13 binders, three, three ring binders, one for every episode. And they're like, and I don't like the D ring, give me a, a full ring. I wrote down my notes. And then I went out and got them. And I, I didn't know what color he wanted. And so I came back and I said, uh, what color do you want? And he said, um, I think, I think he actually wanted a big binder at this time for just, uh, the notes. Um, later I, I got, I got a lot of binders. He really likes binders and highlighters. Yeah. But bold me, like I got these two binders and I was like, I didn't know which color he would want. I got three, I got two black and one white.Phil (31:30):And he came out and said, which color do you want? He said, uh, I don't know, black. And I had it ready. I pulled it out. And I already had all the separators, had everything ready and I gave it to him. And I remember he walked into the kitchen where you were, and I overheard him saying, "man, that guy is really good. Like he got it." And then you sang my praises to him. Yeah. But it like a little thing just, which is a stark difference in the previous PA who told him he couldn't have sushi whenMichael (31:53):He wanted it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just do it with a smile and do just yeah. And all these doors open. Exactly. And so, yeah, I think it's a wonderful, that's not just a lesson for, or Hollywood. It's just a lesson for life, I think. Right.Phil (32:06):Yeah. And then to your point, which you talked to a lot of people about, it's like be nice to everyone because everyone knows everybody is a small town. Yeah. These things get around.Michael (32:15):Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right.Phil (32:19):So, well, any other thoughts about like path to break into Hollywood? I know you've got a lot of content or social media. You talk about like mail room, which, you know, people accuse of being like an eighties strategy, like yeah. But still works. I know friends, who've grown through the mail room to become agents. Yeah.Michael (32:33):And so like, so I, right. So I post, I try to post, I think I do so far daily posts on Instagram @MichaelJaminWriter. And I post about Hollywood, had a break into Hollywood. And so I did one post about, you know, working in a mail room and an agency and how that's a great way to break in. And then I got all these like trolls, I don't know if their trolls or just jerks or whatever. There's like, man, you know, you ever hear a email dude? I was like, well, how do parcels come? When do parcels come through email? Or do they get delivered somewhere? You know? So just jerks, just trying to like, I, I don't know, like, okay, with that attitude, with that attitude, you're never gonna get anywhere in life.Phil (33:09):Well, you've already, you've given up. Yeah. Right. If you're always looking at the negative you've you've given up on, you're not gonna make it. Yeah. Cause you've already decided you are right.Michael (33:18):You've already. Exactly. And it's, it's, self-fulfilling prophecy. There's one woman. I, I had to post and she posted about how Hollywood is an awful place. And uh, people were, she was a PA I, I mentioned it was this post about how to get a job as a PA. And she's like, uh, yeah, P I was a PA don't listen, this guy, I was a PA and people were mean to me. And they were obnoxious and rude and like, listen, I don't know what show she was on. Maybe they were, uh, maybe they were mean and rude to her. Okay. So go get a job at Starbucks. That's a job. That's easier to get. You'll make the same amount of money. And I guarantee you, people will be mean and rude to you. The customers will be mean and rude to you either way it's gonna happen.Michael (33:53):So why don't you do it in the area that you want advance in, in Hollywood? Like, what is your problem? Like, okay. People are mean that's life, man. So what do you wanna get your goal? And someone else had another comment and she was, you know, wow. All that. I think it was a woman, all that just to be for all that work and hard effort, just to be a PA, he was like, no, it's not to become a PA it's to become a writer or a producer or a director like PA this is just a temporary job. Yeah. It's all this work for this temporary stepping stone.Phil (34:21):Yeah. You know, I had a really good conversation because I've been a PA for six years or so now at this point, and I'm 30 gonna be 36 this year. And I have a wife and kids and, you know, it's, it, it's a grind and it can feel a little heavy.Michael (34:34):But in fairness, you you've had opportunities to do other production work, but you just don't want it cuz you want to stay in the screenwriting path.Phil (34:41):Correct. I have turned down post-production coordinator jobs. I've, I've done, I've done some other stuff. I was a post PA on a, on a film, like I've done other things. Right. But ultimately the, the niche I've carved for myself is writer. Cuz that's what I want to do. Right. And if other doors open beyond that, after producing directing and great, but right now my purpose plan is to be a writer. Right. Right. So, um, I lost my train of thought.Michael (35:09):Because I Interrupted you. But the point is that we were talking about how it's just, it's just a stepping stone and you've been doing PA for a while, but it's not because you have to it's cuz you want right. So,Phil (35:16):So I remember now, so I kind of bro, I kind of privately one night, we're shooting super late. Um, it's uh, Friday, we're going into a "Fraturday", which means you're shooting into Saturday morning. So your Friday, Saturday blend. Um, and I was like talking to one of my bosses about, you know, yeah man, I'd really love to get that next step. I just don't know how to approach it. And they said, well, what you have to understand is that people see hard work and they see loyalty and they see effort and they reward that and she said, it's important to know that. Yeah. You're not asking for things, but there will be a time when you get an ask. And when that ask comes, make sure you ask for it. You have to put yourself out there. Yeah. But in general you get the ask because you're not asking.Phil (35:55):And I was like, oh, like, and, and it may not seem like it, but people reward hard workers because, and, and I think the word she said is we recognize what we have with you. And I was like, oh, that's a very kind compliment. But I think it goes back to this mindset of how can I cert and I'm by far not the only person, the production secretary on our show and the other office PA the exact same attitude to the point that our boss on our last day, when we wrapped and we were closing up the stages, she said, I would be happy to work with you any other time on any other show, if you, any of you need jobs, please let me know. Yeah. That's great. Cause, cause we all had that attitude. Yeah. And it made it easier because we were all serving each other too. Yeah. Yeah, it does. So good. We talked a lot. We got a lot of stuff in this. This was an informative episode. I thinkPhil (36:56):This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something no one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael and Phil discuss what it's like to work with a writing partner, how to choose one, and what to look out for. Dive deep into Michael's background with his partner Sivert Glarum and what they did to make it in Hollywood.Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeSivert Glarum's IMDB Page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0321770/Stephen Prestfield's Book - https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492Warner Bros. Writer's Workshop - https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/writers-workshop/Glenn Martin, DDS on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8hzMh1WQ6t5dwbnNop2fVAThe Complete Idiot's Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press - https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Screenwriting-3rd/dp/1592577555Ted Elliott & Terry Rossio's Screenwriting Website - http://wordplayer.com/Michael: (00:00)I'm always reminding myself of the basics. Cause it's really, it's funny. I remember when I was on King of the hill, having a conversation with Greg Daniels who later created the American version of The Office, but I said, Greg, there is no Writing 102. It's all Writing 101. And he's like, "Yes! That's it." Writing one. It's all writing because it is, everything is all, it's all the basics.Michael: (00:27)All right, everyone. Hey, welcome back today. We're going to talk about working with a partner and how to find one and had a, had a, why you want one or why you don't want one. And because I've been working with a TV, writing... A partner, I've had a partner for Jesus. We've been together, you know, close to 30 years. I don't want to date myself. It's maybe, oh, maybe almost that many years. And so we always work together. His name is Sivert Glarum and we always work together. That's how a partnership is, but it's tricky, it's a tricky thing, finding a partner. So I thought I'd elaborate on that for anyone who...Phil: (00:57)I think it's an interesting topic, especially for someone like myself where, you know, I've... I definitely see the value of a partner, but I also see a lot of... My experience with having to rely on other people from group projects in school, down to actually trying to lean in and trust that someone will follow through on their end. My experiences have not been great.Michael: (01:20)Yeah. It's a marriage. And like, marriages are not always easy. Not, not, not everyone's meant to get married to other people. So it's really, you know, I think I got lucky, um, in comedy, it's probably more, it's more advantageous to have a writing partner in comedy because when you, when you say something funny, you don't know, it's funny until someone else is laughing. You may think it's funny, but you know, until someone, your partner laughs, then you go, okay, that must be funny. Um, and I'll just talk about how we met because when I talk in comedy, it's, there's so many ways. I guess when we, when we met, we were team... We were teamed up, uh, in comedy that like some people have partners and its common to have a partner. It's common not to have a partner, but when you have a partner, you literally split a salary for the rest of your career.Michael: (02:06)But, but it does make you, it, in theory, it gives you the advantage of getting hired more often, because you're kind of getting two for that. You're literally getting two for the price of one. And especially when you get high up levels, you're then you're running a show. And now, you know, when you are a showrunner that you have so many responsibilities. It really helps to have someone else take some of them off your hand. And if you don't have a partner, you gotta do it all. You know, so that's, but like I said, it is tricky because you have to get along and like you're pointing out, do you, you have to, you know, you have to really get along with this person. You just have to carry your weight.Phil: (02:40)I think that'd be interesting to get, I'm sure we'll get into this. I think it'll be interesting to talk about kind of your division of labor as you're going through the process of how you're writing. Uh, you know, I, I've heard of different processes based on different writing partnerships, whether, you know, it's the, the Thomas Lennon, Robert Ben Garrett process of they just assign scenes. So one person takes odds and one person takes evens and as they send them back, they're continuously rewriting each other. So by the time they're done with draft one, they have 20 rewrites done. Or is it that one of you sits at the typewriter or the, excuse me, not dating myself at all, sit at the computer and like type it out while the other one dictates or does it take turns? That's an interesting...Michael: (03:23)And I've seen partners do it both ways with the way we do. We literally write everything together. So we will sit at the same at the, at the, uh, you know, computer and one will look at the monitor and the other will be at the keyboard and we literally type at the same. So, you know, the one, I tend to be the one who does the typing, uh, mostly because I'm a better typer than S. It is, um, and frustrating to no end when I'm watching him struggle to put a word together. But, uh, but sometimes he'll do it. And I, you know, I I'll loss it and watch. And so, uh, it's nice. It's nice to have someone drive the boat a little bit, but I'll talk about how we, how we met. We were, uh, I was signed by an agent and, uh, my, you know, few years out of college and was a very big deal for me.Michael: (04:09)And she blew a lot of smoke up my and she's like, I signed one baby writer a year and, uh, I make a star out of that writer this year. You're the guy and congratulations. And I was like, wow, I'm on cloud nine. And she's like, in three years, you're going to be running your own show. I was like, oh my God running. I don't even know if I can write a, you know, an episode of TV, but running. And then, you know, when the smoke cleared a couple days later, I was curious about what had happened to the previous baby writer before me. And so I got through there, I guess, through their assistant, I got the name of this guy and I called them up. He was actually two years before me and I called him up and I was like, Hey man, what, what show are you running?Michael: (04:46)Cause you obviously must be incredibly successful. And he's like, dude, I work at a record store. And, uh, so he hadn't gotten staffed at all. And so we decided to team up, we had, there are two reasons to team up. Uh, one, I, I, I knew enough then to know, like I was, it was hard. I knew, I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough and that we traded scripts. I was like, man, this guy is, this guy is a better writer than I was. Even though we were both signed independently and I was hotter than he was in terms of, I was the new flavor of the week for this agent. And rather than compete against each other for the same job we teamed up. And, uh, and that's how we, that's how we became partners.Phil: (05:28)So, so how did you broach that conversation of, um, what do you think here? Is this something that you want to do together? Like how did that conversation?Michael: (05:36)Yeah, I think we were both interested in writing with a partner. He like, he had a partner many years earlier who decided to get out and become a socialist, uh, that how Sivert describes it. And so we were both open to the idea and, you know, we kind of met and we hit it off. We were coming from similar backgrounds. We're both from the east coast. Sivert a couple of years older than me, but, you know, close in age, we both played the trumpet and, you know, grade school, that kind of thing. Right,Phil: (06:02)Right. Mastering it in heaven.Michael: (06:04)Yeah, but a lot of partners are just, they, you know, they tend to be, Hey, we were friends in college and we both want it. I know that happens a lot. And so let's, let's go out to Hollywood together and become writing partners. So that often, that often is the case. Sometimes you see a husband and wife has a writing partner.Phil: (06:20)I've, I've seen that, um, a couple of times, some pretty big names or writing partners in our couples. So, so, okay. So that's, I mean, that's a fascinating topic. I was literally just listening to, I was out on runs for our show yesterday in post-production and I had to just drive all over Hollywood and Burbank multiple times. So I started listening to a Steven Pressfield book. He wrote The War of Art, um, Turning Pro... A bunch of stuff. He he's a screenwriter who did the novel of a Legend of Bagger Vance, and also wrote the film is multiple time bestselling author been in the industry from the advertising background. And he's got this other book that I never read. And it's um, No One Wants to Read Your Shit. Pardon that? Yeah. Interesting. That's the title. And his whole point is you have to understand whether you're in advertising, writing novels, writing screenplays.Phil: (07:07)No one wants to read your shit. And, and so you shouldn't be like surprised when no one gets around to it. And ultimately it has to be that good that they want to read it. But he talks about how he got partnered up with this big name. And ultimately he felt like he wasn't getting a lot of the credit for what he was doing because he was the writer and the other guy was the name. And his agent sat him down. Once he said, you need to understand that right now he is the known deal because he's had hits with his other writing partner. He's had hits with you. He's the common denominator. You're a nobody. So you need to understand your role here. Now, obviously your situation's a little bit different because we were both young baby writers who partnered up, but it sounds like there's even a little bit of that because you were the hot thing for you, right.Michael: (07:52)It was the hot, but he was trading. Cause we traded scripts. I'm like this guy really is a really good writer. I could tell just from reading a script, like he was, he really understood story structure. And, um, he had, he had sold on his own, an episode with his previous partner an episode of the wonder years. So it was like he had, he did have a little more, you know, he had one under the belt and I had none of the under the belt, but the truth is like, and I remember in the beginning there was a struggle between us in terms of, we didn't know how to trust each other. And, and of course I wanted more of my lines in the script and his lines and, you know, back I kind of thing. And then as you get older and more mature, it's really that ego goes out the window.Michael: (08:30)And it's more about whoever pitches the line that will get you home sooner. That's the one you'll do, you know? It's like, I don't really, if it comes out of his mouth, great, that's great. Let's use that one. I don't really care. And I think he feels vice versa. It's like, um, and often, you know, we'll do a rewrite on a script and he'll want to cut a line and like, no, no, no, no, that's the best line of the script. And it's his line, you know? And he's, you know, so I'm fighting for his stuff and vice versa, you know? SoPhil: (08:58)It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So the pride dies as you become a pro is really what I'm hearing.Michael: (09:03)Yeah, I think so. It's also like in the beginning of the novelty of seeing your words on TV, it was like, oh my God, my lines are on TV, millions of people. And then, uh, you know, that gets, it's not that it gets old, but you've become accustomed to it. And then you're really, it's really more about just doing the work and finishing the work as opposed to like your ego, you know?Phil: (09:24)Okay. So you obviously knew he was, he was engaged cause he was obviously working on the stuff, but for people who are considering teaming up, aside from the benefit of, you're more likely to get staffed, you have someone to vet your jokes or your story against to kind of tell you whether or not it's good. How can you tell whether or not someone's serious? Like someone's a good partner.Michael: (09:42)The thing, cause we were both, we were both signed by the agent. So we were both, um, intent on breaking into Hollywood. So, you know, so it wasn't like, it wasn't like a fluke or it wasn't like a Lark, neither one of us. Like it was a Lark and we were both around the same time. And Hollywood, we were both like on a struggling PAs and we would work on the weekends. We were both very committed. So after work and on the weekends, every day we met and we wrote spec scripts over, you know, wrote and wrote and wrote. And so, because he was a couple of years older, he was also a little bit more hungry, a little more desperate. It was like he had to make a, this happened now. And so we both had that same work ethic in terms of like, and I was young, I was a little younger, but I was also like, I want to, I want it now. I don't have any patience. So was like, we have to hit this now. And so it was a sense of franticness and, and uh, urgency. And it wasn't like there was no plan B for either of us. Hmm.Phil: (10:35)So how, how, how long after your partnered, did you end up, uh, selling something?Michael: (10:40)I think, um, I'm trying to remember it. Like it was, we wound up selling an episode of Lewis and Clark that I helped get, because that was my, I, we sold it to my, my, uh, my bosses. I was working as their, uh, assistant at the time. So I got that because, you know, they were my bosses and that might've been a couple of years after we were writing, but then it took another couple of years before we were able to get staffed on our first job, which was Just Shoot Me. And so it took a few years. And in between then we also got into the Warner Bros. Writing Program, which really did nothing for our career, but you know, it was something, so it took a few years of struggling. And I remember like at that age, the years feel like decades, especially when you feel like, you know, um, you know, I should be doing more with my life. So yeah.Phil: (11:26)Yeah. So, so the reason I asked that is because what you're describing is everyday after work and on weekends, you're practicing your craft. So you've talked about in other episodes is a writer writes. That's what they do. If you wrote something a year ago, you have written, but you are not actively writing. And so what I'm hearing you say is, even though you had agents, which the big misconception is you need an agent to break into Hollywood and that's that's what does it for you that didn't help? Nope. And then even then you put in years of effort to make it to your first staff job.Michael: (11:59)Yeah. And the first spec script that we wrote together, it was a friend's I think it was a first one. It made me minimum the first, it was one of the first. And, but we just kept on writing specs. We probably wrote maybe eight or so specs together, maybe more of show like anyway, ironically it was at first, I think it was the first spec, a spec script that we wrote together that wound up getting work for us years later, it was a really good, uh, spec, but like, we just didn't quit. It was like, well, write another one, write another one, you know, let's get better. You know, so, and I'm, I haven't looked at it in years, but I'm sure I'd look at it. Go, Ooh boy, it's not as good as I remember it. You know? Cause you get, you get better as, as you get older.Phil: (12:35)Right. So, so there has to be a committed, uh, commitment to craft and professionalism is ultimately a good vetting benchmark for this. Are these people willing to work as hard as I am?Michael: (12:46)Yeah. And it's not a get rich quick scheme. It's not like, Hey, let's, you know, let's try this on a Lark and let's try, hopefully we'll sell us. It was like, no, no, we both want to become writers, professional writers. We will not going to stop until we get there. We're going to work our asses until we do.Phil: (12:59)Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Okay. All right. So similar goals, hard work, work ethic, all those things. Yeah. Are there any red flags that you can think of, "Hey, this is probably not a partnership that's gonna work out."Michael: (13:13)Yeah. I mean, like I said that the ego part of it, I also think part of our, what made us a good team, especially in the beginning was in the, in a comedy writing room. Usually, you get classified as a joke guy or girl joke guy or a story guy. And if I were to, I was definitely a joke. I and Sivert, it was probably a story guy. And so we had complementary skill sets and now, but years later, um, I've definitely moved towards the, towards the story person as well. It's like, cause the jokes, jokes are fun and it's like, it's like a lot of sizzle and you get a lot of credit and people love the joke guy, but the story person is far more valuable and it's a skill that's way more important to have, uh, than just being funny or jokes. Those are disposable. Really.Phil: (13:57)That's a note that I've seen from industry professionals that I know personally is, um, if you don't understand story structure, you don't know how to lay out a story. It's not helpful.Michael: (14:08)Yeah. And, and I sh no one does when they start out. Nope. Everyone thinks they do. And they don't. I mean, they're very, they're very few people who are born with that innate skill and they rise up to the top very fast. The rest of us have to learn it. And it takes a long, you know, it takes a while to learn that. SoPhil: (14:23)Got it. And to your point, like, even though I've seen this, like you taught me this stuff, you have it in your course. I've probably seen you teach story structure the way you break a story. And in any room, I still catch myself on a first draft thinking, why did I just bulldoze that, uh, that plot point right there? Like why, why did I step over that story point?Michael: (14:41)Yeah. And I make the same mistakes all the time too. Like I'll sometimes all I'll read my work or what, you know, you need the distance, uh, some time to, to look at your working a wait a minute, this is why what's going on here because you get lost in the weeds and you have to go always go back to the basics. I'm always reminding myself of the basics. Cause it's really, it's funny. I remember when I was on King of the Hill, having a conversation with Greg Daniels who later created the American version of The Office and he was my boss on king of the hill. And I impressed him with something that I said, which was odd and it would impress him. But I said, Greg, there is no Writing 102, it's all Writing 101. And he's like, "yes, that's it! Writing 101." It's all writing. Cause it is. And everything's all, it's all the basics. But I think people will, there are people out there who will try to sell you Writing 102, because they can make a buck, but it's all 101 right. But you have to master that part, you know?Phil: (15:33)Yeah. The 102 does not help you because 101 has the mastery. Yeah.Michael: (15:37)It's like advanced screenwriting, advanced screenings, all basics, you know? Okay. Yes. Master the basics.Michael: (15:46)Hi guys. Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry. And I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time, they'd give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, that just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is, is coming along quite nicely.Michael: (16:25)And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers who a new one, I'm writing staffs. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They finally get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous rant.Phil: (17:07)So prior to COVID, I was doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu here in the valley with a guy named Romelo Barral and he's like a 10 time world champion. He's he's a legend, like UFC fighters, train at his gym. And he's just considered a master. And someone asked him the question what's better. Is it strength or cardio? And he said, cardio, because strength will fail you every time like strength will fade and your cardio can endure. And it's almost like what I'm hearing you say is understanding basics with story structure and storytelling. Those fundamentals are the cardio to everything else. It's the engine that keeps you running.Michael: (17:40)Yeah. And, and like, so few people really want to study that because that's not fun. You know...Phil: (17:46)And that's not sexy. And you know, it, it definitely feels at times it feels contrived or feels formulaic and what I don't think people understand and that I'm slowly learning is that is ingrained in us as a, as a species. It's whether you're talking Joseph Campbell or you're talking, you know, um, other psychological profiles in this stuff, like, uh, Jungian archetypes that storytelling comes from thousands and thousands of years of storytelling. And that's why Homer told his stories and the similar structure. And that's why Shakespeare did. And that's why we do.Michael: (18:21)Yeah. And it's just because it feels right. Something, it just feels right in your bones, but that's not to say it's cliche. Like you can always make cliche choices that you see a mile away. I mean, but you, if you follow the structure, there's plenty of creativity within those, within the points. So it doesn't feel cliche. You know, there's still a lot of choices that you can make and mistakes that you can make along the way. But if you have the structure, it really helps. It's like a house, you know, the houses you can decorate any way you want, but the house needs to have these things to stay up and not fall down.Phil: (18:49)Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. Strong foundation. Right. You have to have it, the war house washes away. Yeah. So, so going back to the comment you made earlier, where you're talking about this division of labor. So we've talked about that when you first started out and we talked about in the writer's room as a Showrunner, as someone who has a show that you're managing, what's the division of labor for you and your partner when you become an Executive Producer.Michael: (19:12)Yeah. So that kind of started our first show that we ran together was called Glenn Martin DDS. And that was a little jem that no one saw and it was Kevin, it was animated. Oh, look at that. He's got a, you got... I gave Phil a toy .Phil: (19:24)I've got your DVD right here.Michael: (19:26)You can go find that. I think it plays on YouTube or make no money. So you can watch, you can watch on YouTube for free. And that was with Kevin Nealon. He did the voice and Catherine O'Hara was amazing. Of course he's hilarious. And Judy Greer that they what a cast we had. And, um, and so on, on once a week, I would have to, we'd have to record the actors and Sivert would stay in the writer's room, running the rewrite or breaking stories for the next episode while I was on the soundstage, directing the actress. I have a, I'm pretty good at that. I'm... I'm a decent, uh, I can hear the voices and I'm, I'm pretty good at directing and expressing myself and trying to get pulling out the best, uh, performances from actors and Sivert is great at breaking story.Michael: (20:05)So it worked out, it worked out really well. Um, yeah, that kind of division of labor. But if, if we were only one of us, then that one, you know, something would have suffered. Someone would have not either directed the actors, the right person, you'd have to delegate to like a number two that you trust. And the fact that Sivert, and I've been working for all these years, like we know like we have the same taste cause we, so we, I can hear his voice. He can hear my voice. We know it's, it's rare that we disagree on, on, on a story point or, um, you know, our take, you know, so it's a lot of trust and a lot of we have the same kind of brain even often. We're, um, I don't remember what we're doing. Oh, we were, we were, um, uh, meeting on another show and, uh, we had, um, we had the same, we both had this favorite episode. We were talking about it later, like, oh yeah, that's the episode I liked best. And he was like, yeah, I liked that one, the best two out of like the six that we saw and we'd liked it for the same reasons.Phil: (21:00)Right. Right. Do you feel like that's innate or is that your taste has grown together over time? Like being partners?Michael: (21:09)Uh, it's grown. We have a similar sensibility over time. Yeah.Phil: (21:13)Got it. Got it. So, so on the subject of working with partners, you know, you talked about people from college, you've talked about, you know, your agent in partnering with people, your agents repping. So you're not competing against each other. Are there any other ways you can think of to come up with and find a good partner if that's what you're looking for? Like sort of like a writer's dating apps.Michael: (21:34)Yeah. I have no idea. I imagine I would have no idea. I know people like in the course that I teach or that offer that, um, people, they reach out, they trade scripts that seems like could be, we have a private Facebook group. I dunno if anybody's teamed up from that. But that seems like a decent way to team up with someone because you're all serious about the craft. And you both have learned the language that I use in describing stories. So it's kind of like you have the same kind of, you already have the same foundation a little bit. I don't, you know?Phil: (22:03)Yeah. And then to your point, I think that that's a very powerful indicator to me of someone's seriousness in, you know, years ago, the first book I ever read on screenwriting was The Complete Idiot's Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press. And he had a couple of resources in there. One of those resources is WordPlayer.com and that's run by Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio who wrote like Aladdin, Shrek, Pirates of the Caribbean, Small Soldiers, basically every film... wrote on..., they basically every film I grew up with in the nineties and in the early two thousands. And they had a bunch of these articles back from AOL in the forums, right. And one of them was talking about professionalism and they said, you cannot call yourself a professional until you're willing to invest in your craft. And that doesn't mean scouring the internet, looking for free scripts. It means going down to a script shop and buying them or going on Amazon and buying a script, it's finding that.Michael: (22:55)That's something you do really well, by the way. Like you always invest in yourself. Always. Yeah, yeah.Phil: (23:01)Yeah. Well, I took, I took that note very seriously. And so I have, I had purchased many online screenwriting courses. I went to film school. I did all those things. And that's one thing that I appreciate about your course. Is there's, there's almost like a paywall that kind of keeps the riffraff out. And it's not saying that if you don't have the funds, that you're riff-raff what I'm saying is there's a level of seriousness that comes with and making an investment in yourself. Yeah. And all of the conversations I've had, I've given notes on scripts to multiple people in that group. It's, it's super helpful. They reach out to me proactively and ask what they can do for me to read my stuff andMichael: (23:37)A nice, yeah,Phil: (23:38)Yeah, absolutely. And the cool thing is we're also coming at it from the stories, from understanding how real writers break story in the TV, TV writers' room, right. Like they're, they're analyzing say, oh, you missed this point. And I don't understand how this pays off. And, and we're, we're speaking it almost like the same insider language.Michael: (23:57)Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's riding with a partner and, uh, it's probably less important for drama, but for comedy, it could be, I think it's really helpful. And, uh, it, you know, it's something to consider something to, you know, explore perhaps.Phil: (24:10)Yeah. I love it. Thanks so much, Michael. I appreciate the info and the insights and thanks to everybody for listening.Michael: (24:15)Yeah. Thank you. Everyone. Talk, we'll see you on the nextPhil: (24:30)This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

In this episode, Michael and Phil tackle the subject of staffing a TV show. Get answers to common questions and see what a working Showrunner is looking for when hiring new staff writers.Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeMichael: (00:00)You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Michael: (00:08)All right, everyone. Welcome back today. We're talking about how shows are staffed and how you can get on a staff and all that stuff.Phil: (00:15)That's what I want to know. Let's do this.Michael: (00:16)That's what you want to pay attention to I'll take notes. All right. Well basically, you know, when a show gets greenlit to go into production, the showrunner is hired first. If that's not the person who, who sold the show, it could be sometimes it's like a younger person might sell the show with less experience than they team up that person with an experienced showrunner, whatever let's say you are. OrPhil: (00:36)I have a question about that. So let's say that I sell a pilot and they are like, Hey, you need a show runner here. A bunch of people. And I'm like, I got a guy, his name was Michael Jamin, his writing partner, Sivert. I want them to run my show. They vet you guys. They like you. They're okay with it. Am I get a creator title right? Created by probably shared with you is my guess.Michael: (00:58)It depends. eh, I, you know, it could be also developed someone like a developed by, or if this case, if you truly created the show by yourself, and then I'm brought on later after mixing on air and I don't get any creative, I just I'm Executive Producer. I don't get a creative background.Phil: (01:12)Okay. And then you are the showrunner. What would my title be? Would I be an M assuming I'd be an EAP because I created the show.Michael: (01:22)Not necessarily. Yeah, not they, you have to negotiate for all that. Um, you could be maybe a producer. They would, might give you if you've had no experience, they might give you a producer title, but they, they might not make you an executive producer and that's not up to that's up to what you knew associate with the studio, you know?Phil: (01:39)Interesting. And I think from our last conversation, those aren't technically writer's Guild, guaranteed titles, right? Those are new sorta titles. Yeah.Michael: (01:48)Yeah. And it's what you can, it's what you can negotiate. I mean, I, yeah, I'm not sure if yeah. I was going to try my, remember we ran a show for the firm, the guy. Yeah. I know for a fact, the guy who created was not executive producer, so yeah. It's you have to negotiate it. So whatever, you can get your first show, you don't have a lot of you don't have a lot of, uh, cards, you know?Phil: (02:08)Yeah. Okay. So who in that room? I it's my show. I sold it. You're the show runner who has ultimate creative sayMichael: (02:18)I the showrunner, but, um, the short Warner's going to try to keep, if the sermons are a decent person, we'll try to keep that the other guy or woman to create happy. You don't really want them, but you have to defer, like, that's why they bring on the show runner. Because like, you're the one with the experience. You don't want hunter who has, it knows how to talk to the network and deal with the actors. And ultimately you, you know, you have that.Phil: (02:39)Yeah. And ultimately you work for the S for the network. Right. But they could technically fire you if you put up too much of a fight. Right. Because it's,Michael: (02:49)Anyone could get fired. Everyone is on the chopping block. So, you know, you don't, you want to be respectful and you don't want to, you know, destroy their vision. But ultimately, you know, that's the why that's why you're being brought on. So I've never had a situation where it became like a struggle of egos. And like now we're doing it my way, usually that the inexperienced writer will, will kind of naturally defer to the showrunner just because, you know, you have the experience. Yeah.Phil: (03:17)Got it. Okay. That's a bit of a digression, but go ahead. Continue. We're talking about to how we get staffed on a show.Michael: (03:24)So usually the show runner will have the first person that they're showing or we'll hire is the, is the second in command. Usually the higher it goes in that order, they usually hire up ha they hire from the top down. So they hire like a co-executive producer or someone was a supervisor and producer. And then finally, if there's any money left over, maybe you'll, you'll throw in, um, a staff writer. That's traditionally how some, but not necessarily how it's done anymore. They've kind of make their kind of changing things now.Phil: (03:50)Okay. So let me, let me ask another question here. When you're making those hiring decisions, how much are you actually looking at budgets to say, like, I know this coach VP has this rate and that's gonna affect my writer's room budget this much.Michael: (04:04)I honestly, I'm not even privy to that stuff. They try, you know, they don't even tell you. They often they'll say, we'll see what we can do. Or often this, the studio will say, well, it's important for us to have a lot of voices in this room. Uh, we don't really care about experience. And so they'll say, this is what you're going to get. I've been on shows where like they say, Nope, you know, I, where I've tried to hire people with experience and I've gotten vetoed by the higher ups who say, no, we want you to have more writers and fewer, like, I'm always, like, in my opinion, I'd rather have someone a really skilled co-executive producer who knows story and who really can turn into a great draft. That's the most important thing to me when I'm running a show, but the studios often have other decisions. They like, no, we want to make sure we have X amount of writers on this show. It doesn't matter if they're never written a word before in their life, but thatPhil: (04:53)That's where they want. Got it. So in that situation, have they said, well, unfortunately you're not able to make that offer because it eats up too much budget or is that anything that comes up like, yeah,Michael: (05:03)No, we don't want to hire this person. That person doesn't check out with us, find somebody else. And it's like, oh great. You know, got it. And it's not that we want to hire our friends. We want to hire people that we've worked with, that we know can do the job. Right.Phil: (05:15)So, because ultimately the writer's job is to make your showrunner job easier because you have so many hats you're wearing.Michael: (05:22)Yeah. All I really care about is can this person write a good draft or do I have to do a page one rewrite? So, you know, that's like, I don't, that's all I really care about is that will the draft come in? Good.Phil: (05:35)Got it. Okay. So you're saying that now things have changed though, and some shows are kind of doing things differently in regards to staff writers. Yeah.Michael: (05:43)I, I, you know, in some degree, like I'm talking about the, the industry is changing so fast that, uh, you know, the orders for shows are becoming because of streaming and cable. And you know, in the old days when I was coming up, there was four networks and you get 22 episodes a year, but now it's streaming and you meet, you do 10 a year or 80 year, and the budgets are getting smaller and smaller. And so they won't hire the writers for the entire production to show. Maybe they'll just hire writers for the pre-production of the show. And so, you know, it's the rules, it's a very fluid situation. SoPhil: (06:15)Got it, got it. Okay. So what a, and we've talked kind of extensively at this point about there's one skillset. You need to have to make it as a staff writer. And that is to be able to write a good episode of tellMichael: (06:28)And that's hard to do so failing that. Can you contribute in some meaningful way and without like gumming up the works and you would think that's an easy thing that you would think that'd be a low threshold. But apparently that seems to be a hard, hard bar to cross for a lot of people, because a lot of new writers simply gum up the works because they want it. They want to talk as much, or they feel like they should be contributing as much as the higher up writers. But the higher up writers are getting paid easily five times as much as a lower writer. And so the low writers thinks, well, if that writer just spoke, you know, for 10 minutes, I better say something for 10 minutes. And I was like, but no, that person's getting paid way more than you, that they have to talk.Michael: (07:09)They were quiet. You know, they are supposed to carry more of a load, but some new writers just don't quite understand that. And so by matching, they feel like, well, I have to do my here's my 10 minutes. I better keep talking. Uh, it's like, Ugh, you know, that doesn't help actually. But there are other ways you can meaningful contribute a great way to contribute for a new staff writer. Most people don't realize this is sometimes they, they want to fight for their own ideas. They take up time arguing for their ideas. And it's not like we don't want to do their ideas. We just want to do whatever the best idea we can get our hands on. And if there's this one of the best ideas I want, we'll take someone else's best idea. So a great way that a staff writer can contribute instead of fighting for your own ideas is when someone has an idea that gets a little traction, see if you can build on their idea. So it's not your idea you're building on theirs. Yeah.Phil: (07:54)And now you've given me a note in the past that you got a great piece of advice when you were a young writer about finding a different way around. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah.Michael: (08:02)Yeah. And now I, that was, I learned that as a staff writer on just shoot me and I got that piece of advice from a writer named marsh McCall. And he was, uh, at the time he was, he had just come off with Conan where he was the head writer on the Conan O'Brien show. And I remember struggling the first few weeks trying to like, we would be pitching a joke and, or a story area, and everyone was so fast and so quick with it. And I was like, I w first they'd say something funny and then I'd spend the next 10 minutes laughing as if I was in, you know, in the audience of the show and just in complete off them. But I had to contribute in some way. And so we pitch on a line and like, how do I beat them for this joke?Michael: (08:41)I just couldn't do it. And one day I marched took me aside and I kind of confided to him what I was struggling with. And he goes, oh, well, here's what you do. Instead of everyone, if everyone's racing towards this one joke, trying to climb over the hill to get to this one joke, you're never going to beat these people. Cause they're pros, they're faster, they're better, they're stronger. They're funnier. You have to find a way around. You have to go under the health. You have to go around the hill, you have to dig a hole, you can get to the sand, but you have to get a different way there. And I, and to me that freed everything up, that little analogy helped me so much. I was like, oh, okay. I don't have to follow them. I can, I can cheat. I can find another way around to get to the end, the end. Funny. I, you know, I can think of a different way to get to a punchline that isn't necessarily the same pit, the way everyone else is pitching. I can think of a different way to approach the joke and that freed everything up. And after that, I kind of became all, I kind of came alive in the room and then I had my confidence soared and I was like, oh, I can do this job. That's a, before that I thought I was gonna be fired. Yeah,Phil: (09:36)No kidding. So, so do you have any example of what that would look like? It's so hard. I know it's putting you on the spot.Michael: (09:43)It is it's but it's like, I, you know, I remember like if you're pitching a joke about, uh, Nina being a non-event horn, who was a kind of like, she, she used to drink a lot and maybe everyone's pitching a joke about her being a drunk. And, and we're trying to think of a funny way to talk about that. If you came out of it a different way, instead of trying to get to the drunk part, get to the part where she's promiscuous or something, you know, just do something else that no one else is thinking about. Cause it's not like we have to come up with a line about her drinking too much. It could be, you know, it, it could be another way to approach the problem. Um, uh, yeah. And so I wish I could think of a better example, but it's always been about, um, just not following everybody, come up with your own way to get around the problem.Phil: (10:26)That's a, I think it's powerful, powerful advice for anybody who is struggling with that. So what would you consider to be the no-nos of a staff writer?Michael: (10:36)Well, there's a, there's a phrase that's often heard in, in TV writing rooms. It's it's pitch don't. And so that means it's so much easier for a staff writer. And again, I include myself in this because I was just as guilty. It's so hard to come up with something usable and good, but it's very easy to take a dump on someone else's idea and to explain why your idea is no good. Why it won't work. That's extremely easy, but it's not productive. And so that's. So you never really want to point out a problem unless you have a solution. You know, and I that's, that's been my mantra to the, to this day. It's like, I don't point it up. I just come up with solutions, you know?Phil: (11:17)Yeah. I've heard other people refer to this as being the doctor know that. Yeah, no,Michael: (11:23)You know, it's funny you say that sometimes people will say to play devil's advocate and my partner always says, he always interrupts. He goes, well, whoa, are we playing devil's advocate now? I didn't realize, let me get out of the board game. We're not playing devil's advocate. You know, we're making a TV show.Phil: (11:38)Yeah. Right.Michael: (11:39)So no doubt that the devil, by the way, devil does need an advocate. Devil does pretty well on his own. So he doesn't need any help from you.Phil: (11:47)Right. Right. Okay. So, so I can, I know that there are some observations I've made in writer's rooms with what young writers have done. That seem odd to me. Tell me if, tell me if these are no-nos, um, having a pad of paper out and just doodling the entire time while everyone's talking.Michael: (12:06)And that happens, uh, you gotta have balls. Cause they see some older writers doing that, a more experienced writers. Even. That's not really a good form. Like it's an, and I'm guilty of it too. I'd take out my phone and I'm looking at my phone. You should definitely shouldn't. You should notPhil: (12:19)Be. That was my next to nationalMichael: (12:22)phone away. And I'm guilty of it. But some people, sometimes they do it all and maybe they think it helps their expression, but it doesn't like it releases their mind and releases their creativity. But to the other people, maybe it does, maybe that's the truth, but to the outside bystanders, it just looks like you're doodling your board away. Yeah. It looks at your right. So put that away. Um, I don't, I'm not a good doodler, so I don't have that problem. All right.Phil: (12:46)So say I'm a new staff writer, what time? And the writer's room starts at 9:00 AM. What time should I be there? If it'sMichael: (12:52)No writer's room starts at 9:00 AM. Right. And it usually starts at 10. The writers or writers are always like that's show up to work at later. Um, but I'd say it was a 10. You get your in the seat at nine 50 and you don't want to be the last per, you never want to be the last person to sit. You never want to leave the showrunner waiting for you. I see that happen all the time. Like, are you out of your mind? Don't wait. You know, no man being in your seat before everyone else. And I, and even now as a co-executor I'm in, if I, if I'm not running the show, I'm in my seat before everyone else, it just seems wrong to keep the boss waiting.Phil: (13:26)Right. Okay. So next, um, let's say that the writer's PA comes in and he's taken everyone's lunch orders. How much time slash how picky should I be with my order?Michael: (13:38)Oh, wow. Yeah. I haven't really thought about that. Uh, if you can make it funny, then you can take as much time as you want, you know? Cause if you make the other writers laugh about how you deliberate, uh, you know, over your lunch order, that could be a funny routine. But um, if not, uh, then you're just a pre-madonna, you know, don't just pick something out and move it on. You don't want to hold, you don't want to hold up the room. You don't want to be often in a writer's room. People are goofing around and they're just having fun and that's fine, but you never want to be the last person or the first person to go far out. But that's you let someone else be the last person. Cause you don't want to, you don't want the boss say, all right guys, settle down. You know, you don't want to be the last person to open your mouth. And even like today, I'm always considered of that guy, you know? And I'm, I'm in a pretty safe boat. I'm a, Co-Executive Producer with a lot of experience. So I wouldn't make that mistake. So why would a rookie writer make that mistake?Phil: (14:28)All right. What are there, have you seen any other big mistakes or subtle mistakes? Even that, uh, beginning staff writers were making?Michael: (14:36)Yeah. It's sometimes they'll fight the fight. The showrunner on what the tone of the show should be. You know? And it's like, man, this man or woman just sold the show, they sold it. It's that they got a show on there. That's pretty impressive. If you don't agree with them, then get your own show. This is their shot. And we are all here to help them get, realize their vision. Even if you don't not like their vision, it's their vision. Even if you think it's their, vision's going to get the show canceled. It's there, that's on them. We here to help them.Michael: (15:12)Hi guys. Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry and I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, it just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. By the way her script is coming along quite nicely.Michael: (15:51)And oh, and I'm a done another thing when I work with TV writers for a new one, I'm writing stamps. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break, they find it, they get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that said, because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminwriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous,Phil: (16:33)Do you feel like you've seen that throughout your 26 years? Is it a common problem or do, would you say it's becoming more of a problem with younger reps?Michael: (16:41)You know, as I get older, eh, you millennials, but um, I, I see it every year. I see a young writer make that mistake and get fired and I really don't get fired. They don't get asked back to season two, which isPhil: (16:53)Equivalently being the equivalent to being fired.Michael: (16:55)Yeah. Yeah. And you can, you can tell, like I remember we were on a show and, and none of the execs was like, we found this great young writer who did a show. We did a year on this very high profile show and I'm like, they only did a year. Huh. And you want to hire them and you think they're going to be, they only did a year because they were fired off that show. So they have a great credit. But if they only get a year off a hit show it's cause they were fired off that show. Why do you want this person? And I was right. I turned person turned out to be a disaster.Phil: (17:26)Yeah, got it. Yeah. I asked because it does seem to me as a millennial that even in my business, the millennials tend to be a little bit more entitled. They seem to think that they have a right to argue with me about how things are done. And it's not about ego. It's not about saying like, I'm right. You're wrong. Like I want to hear what they have to say. Cause I'm aware, like I may not have all the best and I hired you and I pay you money because you have unique insights that I don't have you supposed to make my job better. But you know, ultimately I recently just had someone quit because I'm toxic because I held them accountable. Right. Right. And so I I'm seeing that. And I'm wondering if that's how it translates, but it's interesting to know that it's, it's a perpetual problem. Well,Michael: (18:13)You know, the job of a staff writer is you're there at the, at the executive producers. Pleasure. And you're, you're there to make the, so if I picture a line or a story idea that the boss does, the showrunner does not like, or we argue over a point, like I make my case, they hear it, they make a decision and then we move on. I don't keep arguing with them. I don't try to change their mind after that. I'm like, okay, move on. You heard me good. Now I haven't heard you felt, I feel heard let's move on. I will do what you want.Phil: (18:43)Hmm. You know? Uh, what else can you ask for? I think, right. But yeah. You know, so ultimately it sounds like you just need to know your place and you need to read the room and you need to understand. So what I would consider to be basic social skills.Michael: (18:54)Yeah. There's a lot of that. A lot of basic social skills. Um, yeah. And that it's odd that people don't pick up on that. And I'm always, yeah. I always try to be aware of other people, uh, now, uh, nowadays, by the way, I meant to point out in my little, my little show notes, um, the studios are, are making definitely more of an effort for diversity and stats. And so, I mean, I, and when I see people complain on Twitter, I'm like, uh, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. I, from what I see the, uh, they are, uh, the, the effort that they're making is very sincere and they are putting money behind it. And so they are definitely making a conscious effort to have a, you know, just a broader range of people in it so that more voices can be heard. And so if you're complaining, well, no, they're not, well maybe, cause they're not hiring you, but I see it on my end. They are hiring people like you. SoPhil: (19:44)Yeah, no, I I've. I've seen that. Um, in the short time I've been here, there's definitely a concerted effort to get minorities and underrepresented people into shows and all shows, not necessarily just shows with an ethnic, you know, tone or voice. Exactly.Michael: (20:00)Right. Yeah.Phil: (20:01)Hmm. Well, let's go back a little bit because I think one of the things we might've passed over is like, how, how are you picking staff writers? You talked about how you go top to bottom, you know, typically higher level down, but how are you getting in contact with people? How are you finding scripts from new writers? How are you making those introductions? Okay,Michael: (20:20)Well usually you, you, uh, when you're running a show, you call your agent, say, Hey, we're hiring, send over your, you know, some, some young writers and they, next thing you know, you have a stack of, you know, giant stack of scripts and, uh, from your agent and from the other competing talent agencies, and you have so many scripts that y'all pick up one and I'll start reading. And if I get to bites page four or five, and if I'm not hooked on the story next, so forget about the end, forget about this idea that wait till the end, it gets great at the end. Nope. I'm not waiting. I'm picking up another script and find somebody elsePhil: (20:52)Let's narrow in on that. If you don't mind, what is it that stands out to you in those first four pages? Like how do you know or what gives it away that this is a good writer?Michael: (21:02)Well, for, well, I work in mostly comedy, so there better be a really good laugh on by the end of page three. I hopefully I remember, uh, when my partner were writing specs, like, man, we want to come up page one, boom, with a big, hard joke, like a big laugh. It could be, you know, a real swing. So I'm looking for that. But also I want to know, has the story started, you know, when, how to start a story, has it begun yet? And cause until the story starts, and this is something that I talk about in my course, right? Like what does that mean? When a story starts? Uh, I go into a great detail because it's hard. It's important to understand, but if the story hasn't started by page three or four next, and by the way, you will be just as guilty. If you're watching a TV show and they don't start the story, you pick up your moat next, what else is on? So you're, you're, you're no different than me when I'm hiring, we have the same criteria, you know?Phil: (21:53)Got it, got it. So a big laugh they're taking, you know, they're, they're implementing the tone of the story, right?Michael: (21:59)Yeah. I want a big, I want a big swing man. Yeah. Go for it. And the gate, get my attention.Phil: (22:05)Got it. And then store it. Um, we don't need to dive too far into story. Cause I know you covered that in your course on a lot of your social media stuff. So if anyone listening, hasn't isn't following Michael check out his Instagram, uh, Michael Jamin writer. He's got a ton of tips on that stuff and that's one of the topics I always covered. All of meMichael: (22:20)Guys follow me. I'll lead you over the cliff.Phil: (22:24)You've made comments to me before, like the pied PiperMichael: (22:28)Cut that part out.Phil: (22:30)So as far as, um, you you've made comments to me before, about when you were reading these stack of scripts, you're really like the, you're looking for someone to do you a favor and to make it so you don't have to continue reading those.Michael: (22:43)Yeah. I'm begging like I want, it's not like I don't have like an attitude, like impressing me young. Like I'm begging, please. Someone should give me a script that really impresses me. I want to hire you so I can stop reading the other 90 scripts on my desk. I don't want to read anymore. I don't want to do that. I want to ha I, you know, and once if you're a great, if you know how to write a script, you do, you're doing me a favor because it's not the other way around. I need you on the show. You're doing me a favor and we will hire. We were, um, we were staffing on, on written link. Uh, we were reading, it's a show we ran a couple of years ago. Uh, we read a lot of scripts and I was like, ah, no, no, no, not really. No. And then one finally made its way into my desk and I was like only a few pages into it and was like, hire this guy, hire him now I don't need to read anymore. I don't want to lose him, hire him now because I don't want to read anymore. And he impressed me. And that's how, and that was that. Yeah.Phil: (23:39)And did that write a workout? Yeah.Michael: (23:41)Yeah, he was, he was very talented, you know, turning into drafts.Phil: (23:45)There you go. Then probably still working my guess. Yeah. That's incredible. That's awesome. Okay. So now that I'm a staff writer, um, is there anything else that you think that I need to know in terms of like, how can I be a better staff writer? Obviously it's good drafts. It's perf it's being, knowing your place in the room and fulfilling that role. But is there anything related to like, is there homework I could do, should I, obviously I should watch this show, but is there anything that helps me like pay attention to like the voice of those characters or anything like that?Michael: (24:19)I remember actually I think it was two years ago in Tacoma, FD, the show I'm currently co-executive producer on one of the writers came in with a list of story ideas that they wanted, they were going to pitch and I'm like, yeah, let's hear them. And most of them weren't very good, but I was like, there's gotta be something in here. And it saved me the effort of it. Cause I w I didn't have a list of ideas. I was like, I was like, yeah, if you have a great idea, let's do that. And, uh, so I thought that was really good on their part, that they were prepared and they, you know, and they had some ideas that they were brought to the table and I'm, I'm perfectly happy to pitch if they got to go to, yeah, I'm happy to pitch on that idea.Michael: (24:52)You know, I was like, good for you for being prepared. Other than that, it's a really good opportunity. They can use this as an opportunity to learn. And instead of being argumentative, if, you know, you'll you'll know pretty quick, which writers are the ones who can, you can learn from because they're the ones that everyone's kind of paying attention to and figure, you know, watch what they're doing and try to get on their page and try to get into their head because that's a person that education is invaluable. So you don't always have to be working. You can also be learning. Hmm.Phil: (25:25)Hmm. That's a good note. Awesome. You have, you have a note here on our notes. Don't need joke. People are idea people. Okay.Michael: (25:33)Oh, don't joke. What does that mean? Um, uh, oh, sometimes. Oh, wait. I was a question that someone asked, asked me on Instagram, um, was like, how, how does their division of labor work? Or some people just idea. People are some people just joke people. And I, that may, may have been the case back in the eighties or something when money was flowing, but now you're kind of expected to do everything. But the Mo the most important function is story. Do you understand story? Can you help contribute in that way? And that's very hard. As far as joke people, I always feel like that's, that comes in last. That's like picking the, uh, the color that you want to paint the walls. First, you have to build the house that you have to construct the house. So, uh, I was actually, yeah, so that was in response to a question like what, uh, what, you know, how does the division of labor?Michael: (26:24)So we talked about this in one of the other episodes we did is like, some people think that the writers' room works like, well, one writer writes for this character and the other writer writes for that character. It's like, no, no. When you put together a script, you go off, you write the script and you're writing for all the characters. And you're expected to the script, has to, the story structure has to be there. And it has to funny. So you have to be able to do both. And the trauma room. Of course, it's a little different, you don't have the burden of, uh, being funny. That's why the hours tend to be better and drama.Phil: (26:51)Yeah. And that's something you want still me. Um, it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh.Michael: (26:57)Yeah. Well, that's like an old thing and knowledge it's like dying. Uh, you know, w w was it dying? Dying is, is easy. Uh, laughter is hard. Getting people to laugh is, is, is much harder. Comedy is very, very hard. Yeah.Phil: (27:09)Got, got it. It doesn't have a note here. Um, don't you don't need thread polars. Is that the same thing as a doctor know? Or is it,Michael: (27:16)Yeah, yeah. What is this? You know, what ha well, like, but this does really make a hundred percent logic here, you know, it's was like, oh yeah, yay. You know? Yeah, yeah. A lot here comes the logic, please. Everyone hide I'm let me, of course, you know, if something is egregious, then you don't want to do it, but there are some people who think they're getting bonus points by pointing something out that like, like we've been working on this for the story air for four hours. And no one thought about it now, like, obviously it's not going to be a problem when you're watching it on TV without, you know, with your phone in your hand and read a magazine and the other so that, you know, no, one's really paying attention to that closely. Yeah.Phil: (27:57)Got it. All right. And then, uh, lastly, I know there's this, there's this topic that's come up a couple of times and recently happened in, in Tacoma, FDA where, you know, we have our script coordinator. Mike Rapp is just an awesome guy. He was actually given the opportunity to write a freelance episode of our show. So he wrote an episode that is airing soon. I think it's episode 3 0 4 of this upcoming season. And he's he wrote an episode, um, how to freelance episode works, uh, obviously as a staff writer, I'm assuming you're going to get the opportunity to write an episode, but yeah. How do, how do we do the freelance thing?Michael: (28:34)You know, the guilt has a stipulated. They, they have to, for every certain number of episodes that you produce, or in a season, a certain X number have to go to freelance. Uh, and if they don't, then the show has to pay a penalty. Often in the old days, they would often hire outside freelancers, just experienced writers. And I'm talking to the old days, like in the seventies. Um, but now there is a shift towards giving those freelance opportunities to people who are staff that's on the show, support staff. So like writer's assistants and script coordinators, people who've kind of paid their dues and you give them a shot.Phil: (29:07)Hmm. Got it. Now I, this is, I think, topically relevant because recently on Twitter I saw someone complaining about how, oh, I have I'm on a show. And it seems like the showrunner just wants to give these freelance opportunities to their friends, rather than giving them to the support staff. They'd rather pay a penalty instead of giving it to the writer's assistant or whoever, and make sure that their friends get a job or get a gig. Um, my feeling on that when I read it was, or is it that those lower level staff have not impressed the show runner enough to say, I think this person can do this.Michael: (29:44)Yeah. Because that's probably what's happening is that, you know, they, before you get to freelance, you, the boss is going to want to read a sample of your work. And so it better be really good and, you know, giving a freelance to anyone, you know, it really puts the showrunner a little bit behind the April, because if it doesn't come in good and most do not, it's going to need a giant page, one rewrite. And now the show runner has to do that. And you know, and they're not getting extra money for doing that and they have to do it on their own time. So like, that's why we see that when I'm running a show, all I care about is, is the draft coming in good shape, because if it doesn't, I got to do it on my own time and you have so many other things to do.Michael: (30:22)I like, I, last thing I want to do is rewrite someone else's work from page one. And so if you give that opportunity to, to someone who isn't quite ready and it's very hard to be ready, you know, that's why it's so important to be educated and to be as prepared as you can. Uh, because, you know, actually we, we were my partner and we were a few years ago. Um, this happens a couple of times in our career, were they show, uh, the Kirsty reality, how Allie had a show on TV land called the Kirstie alley show was with Michael Richardson, Rhea Perlman. And so I guess they needed to have a couple of freelances and they were a little bit behind the eight ball. And they, we had some friends in the show and they said, Hey, these guys will do it. And we had nothing going on at that time.Michael: (31:06)And so they hired us to do this freelance and it was great. And we went in, we banged it, we hit it out of the park. Everyone loved it. Like the whole staff loved it. And everyone was relieved that we did a good job because it just makes their job easier. But, um, yeah, maybe now if they had did it, that was few years ago, maybe now they would just give it to, uh, I don't know the staff right. Or, uh, or writers assistant, I only think they could at the time, because they just, th they script had to come in. Good. So they had a high, they really had to hire experienced people to doPhil: (31:33)It. It's literally, there's no time toMichael: (31:34)Rewrite. There is no time.Phil: (31:36)Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, any other thoughts about getting staffed or how your staffing shows you think that would be helpful for people to know? I think,Michael: (31:46)I think I covered it. Um, but again, it's all about, this is your opportunity. This is your shot, and you're not gonna get too many shots. So you have to be prepared, you know?Phil: (31:54)Yeah. Preparation is have specs, have pilots be able to understand what story structure is and understand how to understand your role. Yeah. It sounds like,Michael: (32:05)And like I said, showrunners, are looking. We are begging you to understand that if you understand that you're hired because we need you. And so it's not it. So it's not a favor. You're not doing, you know, you're doing us a favor. And so the other way around.Phil: (32:17)Just another thing you've always said, Hollywood needs a good writers. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you, Michael. Thanks everybody for listening.Michael: (32:23)Yeah. Thank you guys.Phil: (32:25)We'll catch you on the next one.Phil: (32:40)This has been an episode of screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jackson and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course michaeljamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something. No one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information michaeljamin.com/course. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @philahudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.