Podcasts about Admiral

In this first of two shows this week, we welcome back Adm. Mike Manazir "Nasty" to talk about his new book, Learn How to Lead to Win - 33 Powerful Stories and Leadership Lessons. You may recall two shows with him before - Here's to Bug Roach Episode 17, and Best Job in the Galaxy Episode 18. In this and tomorrow's episode you will gain insight into the reason this man became a Fighter Squadron Commander, Executive Officer of a Large Deck Nuclear Carrier, Commanding Officer of the supply ship Sacramento and the USS Nimitz, and the Strike Group Commander as an Admiral aboard the USS Carl Vinson. Listening to Nasty his genuine passion for the Sailors and Marines he led comes through loud and clear. His ability to connect with people and lead by example is only part of it. Throughout his book, it becomes clear that his approach to leadership was one of sacrifice and service rather than power and authority. If you were the most junior Sailor in his command and he knew your name, it was NOT because you were in trouble; it was because he wanted to know more about you. He wanted to know your story and your challenges and strengths. By caring enough to know every member of his command Nasty elicited in people a genuine desire to perform their best and everyone reaped the benefits of a strong and battle-ready unit. Laugh with us at the successes and failures that helped mold a world-class leader. This book should be mandatory reading for anyone who has others looking to them for answers. If only we'd known what is shared here; how much easier would all of our careers have been?

Jiunn, Seth, John and Aaron discuss their review experience with the Red Anchor Admiral https://developingpalates.com/reviews/cigar-reviews/team-cigar-review-red-anchor-admiral/

The hectic and high stakes month of October 1942 has finally wound down and passed into history.  And with it, the lives of nearly 400 Americans at The Battles of Henderson Field and Santa Cruz and an astonishing figure of nearly 3,500 Japanese lives at those same events.  The Japanese have thrown their very best efforts at Guadalcanal in October, both ashore and off shore, and have come up short.  The devastating defeat ashore was followed by a tactical victory, but strategic defeat off shore and has left the Japanese in no better position than they were in August…just thousands of lives shorter.As November dawns, Guadalcanal is still a hot bed of activity.  Fighting on the ground has eased off in intensity, but is still a fairly constant struggle, although nowhere near as bad as the previous several months have been, but the Japanese aren't done yet.  At sea, however, the Japanese are also not through with their efforts to both smash the American fleet and destroy Henderson Field.   The Japanese will try several more times this month, specifically twice in back-to-back nights.The first of these epic naval clashes occurs on, of all dates, Friday the 13th.  The confused and chaotic melee that follows will be known as the Bar Room Brawl.Talking Points:The Set UpThe Imperial Army had planned to reinforce Guadalcanal yet again with a large troop convoy that consisted of nearly 7,000 well trained troops, 31,500 artillery shells, and food for 30,00 men for 20 days.The convoy was made up of 11 transport ships under reliable ADM Tanaka with a heavy escort of 12 DDs.Before the planned troop landing which theoretically would occur on November 14, the Japanese would send 2 fast BBs (Hiei and Kirishima) to shell Henderson with special frag shells that would destroy aircraft and supplies as well as men.The Japanese bombardment unit was commanded by ADM Abe and consisted of:2 BB's Kirishima and Hiei1 CL11 DDsThese ships were timed to sail on November 12 and arrive off Lunga Point just after midnight on Friday the 13thIronically enough, at the same time, the Americans were also preparing a reinforcement convoy bound for Guadalcanal.2 separate convoys were to bring over 5,000 troops and much needed supplies to Guadalcanal, they were to be heavily escorted by American cruisers and destroyers.Thanks to intel, the US knew that the Japanese were preparing another reinforcement convoy and deployed this heavily escorted convoy to do 2 things.Deliver troopsDisrupt the Japanese planned troop delivery with the surface ships assigned as convoy escortKelly Turner was in command of the convoy and the 2 separate escorts were commanded by ADM Daniel Callaghan aboard USS San Francisco, and Cape Esperance victor ADM Norman Scott aboard USS Atlanta.The American convoy reached Guadalcanal on the morning of the 12th and unloaded the precious cargo and supplies.A Japanese scout named LCDR Mitzi observed the convoy unloading and sent a message to combined fleet HQ that also noted a surface force of  3 BBs, 3 CAs, 11 DDs off Lunga.Japanese ADM Ugaki surmised that the surface force would probably try and intercept the Japanese the following night, however in a staff meeting it was stated that the Americans would “go away as usual” and Abe's force was not notified of the American's presence.Despite this lack of warning, Japanese air assets decided to strike the Americans, sending 16 torpedo armed Bettys, and 30 Zeros to hit the forceWarned by coast watchers ahead of time, Turner got his ships underway as 20 F4Fs and 8 P39s scrambled to meet the Japanese inboundIn the ensuing air battle, the Betty's missed their targets and were ravaged by the F4Fs who claimed 17 bombers and 6 fighters while actually downing 11 Betty's and 1 Zero to the loss of 3 F4Fs and 1 P39.Turner was later rewarded with a very accurate sighting report of Abe's force to which he decided to shred his transports of any sizeable escort and order these same escorts to intercept and attack Abe's extremely powerful forceTurner assigned Daniel Callaghan as Task Force Commander, despite the fact that Scott had over 6 weeks sea time in these very waters and had won a night time naval fight. He assigned Callaghan because he was 15 days (!) senior to Scott.The stage was set.  An American force that consisted of:2 CAs3 CLs 7 DDsWould intercept Abe's bombardment force under the command of an Admiral who had virtually no experience in combat at all on board a CA that still fielded inadequate radar (USS SF)Let's talk about the radar again here, Scott should have been in charge, but at the very least, Callaghan should have embarked aboard Helena with her SG radar and not Frisco.Collision in the DarkThe night was moonless, black in complete and total darkness…which dam sure didn't help with ship ID in the fight that would come.The American battle line was laid out such:Cushing, Laffey, Sterett, O'Bannon, Atlanta, Frisco, Portland, Helena, Juneau, Aaron Ward, Barton, Monssen, FletcherCallaghan laid his forces out much like Scott did at Cape Esperance, mainly for maneuvering in the confined waters more than anything else.Whereas, he should have laid his forces out with Fletch, O'Bannon, Helena, Juneau and Portland in the van because of the new SG radar systems aboard.The Japanese had split their forces into two separate groups, due mainly to horrible weather that caused some of his units to lose visibility and become detached and spread out.ADM Abe, believing he would not encounter American vessels, ordered his ships to load their weapons for a surface bombardment.BBs Hiei and Kirishima loaded, what amounted to frag shells in their 14 inch rifles, not AP.At around 0130 aboard Helena, her SG radar showed two distinct formations of enemy ships some 27,100 yards distant.Helena relayed this information to Callaghan, who generally seemed to ignore it, instead relying on Cushing's potential visual contact.Tremendous mistake here.  This goes back to what we have said in the past that certain CO's, ADMs and the like did not put any faith in the new technology and in some cases, specifically this one, it would cost them their lives.Back aboard Helena, CAPT Gilbert Hoover was beginning to get highly irritated at the fact that Callaghan was ignoring the electronic picture his ship was presenting.  Cape Esperance all over again.The range to target rapidly decreased from 10,000 yards to 5,000 to 4,000 as both forces literally steamed right at one another.  At 0140 Cushing reported to Callaghan that a “ship is crossing bow from port to starboard, range 4,000 yards maximum.”  Then another passed, and another and so on.  Still Callaghan held fire.Range fell to 2,000 yards and Cushing asked via TBS, “Should I let them have a couple of fish?” Callaghan denied the request, which was followed by another from Laffey, which he too denied. Instead saying, “Stand by to open fire.”By 0147 Callaghan's formation was falling apart as individual skippers were veering out of formation so as to avoid collision with vessels visually identified as Japanese by the van.“Open Fire!”A Japanese searchlight, probably from Hiei, pierced the night and focused directly on Helena.  Just ahead another searchlight from a Japanese DD, probably Akatsuki, focused on Atlanta.Aboard Atlanta, CAPT Jenkins gave the pre-war order to “counter illuminate” the target.  His gunnery officer LCDR William Nickerson heard this, and shouted into his headset, “Fuck that! Open Fire!”  Guns visually ranged in on the enemy DD and opened fire at a range estimated to be between 600-1,000 yards.When Atlanta opens fire…everything goes to hell, everybody opens fire.  As the first to fire, Atlanta comes under fire from several Japanese ships and is hit in her torpedo director.  Lloyd Mustin Asst Gunnery Officer, is visually watching his shells splash just short of the Japanese DD.  He orders visual corrections and watches through his binocs as the rounds start tearing into the Japanese at a range of under 600 yards.Akatsuki is the target and she is absolutely smeared by gunfire from Atlanta, Frisco and Helena. The following Japanese DDs fired their torpedoes at Atlanta just before Ikazuchi was hit by 8 inch gunfire, probably from Frisco.  She doesn't sink and retires.Atlanta is hit by several ships, and at least 1 torpedo and drifts into the field of fire of USS San Francisco.Completely out of touch with the situation unfolding before him, Callaghan gives his infamous order, “Odd ships commence fire to starboard, even to port.”  This order throws several ships, who were either tracking or firing at targets, to disengage and swing turrets to different targets.Hindsight is always 20/20, but its abundantly clear that Callaghan was out of his element.Cushing, still in the lead, is rapidly engaging targets when she is blasted by shell fire from a number of enemy ships.  As she is hit, BB Hiei passes close to starboard.  Cushing flashes a voice warning of the enemy BB over TBS and is then blasted by Hiei's secondaries, drifting to a halt and eventually going down.Laffey is now in the lead, if there actually is a lead, and passes Hiei so close that her superstructure towers over her as if you were on the ground looking at a skyscraper, less than 1,000 yards away.Laffey opens fire with her 5 inchers.  Despite Hiei's belt armor, the 5 inchers are so close that they actually penetrate and explode within.Individual AA gunners aboard Laffey opened fire with 20mm Oerlikon mounts and poured their fire into Hiei's portholes and riddled her upperworks with automatic weapons fire, hitting and killing Japanese sailors topside.ADM Abe took shrapnel to his face from American gunfireAs Laffey passes Hiei and avoids collision, she is taken under fire from Kirishima, who smacks her with 14 inch shellfire.  At the same time, she is hit by a torpedo on the stern which cripples her.Sterett sights in on a Japanese DD, opens fire and watches her stern catch fire and begin to slow.  Almost immediately, Sterett is caught in a cross fire from several Japanese ships, including Hiei.  She takes numerous hits, slows and retires.  She winds up taking a total of 11 hits, all on the port side, all in her upperworks.Friendly Fire, and Cruisers versus HieiAs Atlanta drifted, having been struck by Japanese gunfire and 2 torpedoes, she moved directly into Frisco's line of fire.  From a range of about 3500 yards, San Francisco fired at least two full broadsides at Atlanta, while she was attempting to fire at a Japanese vessel just beyond her.  The 8 inch shell hits were absolutely devastating, shredding Atlanta's superstructure and killing Admiral Norman Scott.Blame can't really be put on Frisco for this.  The battle had devolved into a melee, a chaotic mess in which even radar could not pick enemies from freindlies.  The chaos gave the battle its nickname, when in an AAR an officer likened it afterwards to "a barroom brawl after the lights had been shot out.”It can be assumed that Callaghan witnessed Atlanta take fire from Frisco, as he immediately ordered “Cease Fire Own Ships!”After Callaghan's order, which most ships ignored by the way, Helena was tracking targets via radar, large targets, and requested permission to fire.Helena opens fire on Hiei, aiming at her superstructure, letting her 6 inch weapons loose on automatic continuous mode, the “machine gun cruiser” pours over 200 rounds a minute into Hiei's superstructure, setting it ablaze.Callaghan and Frisco now open flank speed and slides right by Hiei at 2200 yards away on her starboard beam and Kirishima 3000 yards distant on the starboard bow.Frisco unleashes a broadside at Hiei which answers in kind.  Hiei's shells strike just short of Frisco, her bombardment shells exploding on contact with the water.The only way to save Frisco's life is to pour it into Hiei, which is exactly what she does.  Pouring salvo after salvo into the battlewagon's hull and superstructure.By pounding Hiei, Frisco now has the full attention of the 2 Japanese BBs.She takes a frightful beating from the Japanese, suffering over 45 shell hits, 12 of them 14 inch hits.Frisco avoids Davey jones' Locker due to the fact that the Japanese BBs are firing incendiary and HE rounds designated for bombardment as opposed to AP rounds.Still, she takes an absolute pounding.Hiei's 3rd salvo strikes Frisco's bridge, utterly obliterating nearly everyone inside of it, including Callaghan and CAPT Cassin Young.LCDR Bruce McCandless, senior officer in the bridge is the only survivor.  He is instructed by senior DC officer CDR Schonland to command the ship as Schonland is too busy fighting flooding and stability issues aboard ship.Frisco survives because of Schonland and McCandless, who both receive the MOH.Juneau enters the fray, sighting the burning Hiei, passing close aboard and pouring 5 inch and automatic weapons fire into the flaming battleship.Shortly after opening fire, Juneau engages Harusame with gunfire and gets hit, almost dead amidships, by her torpedo which fractures her keel.  She then limps away...we will hear more from her later...The Battle OverAt 0226, CAPT Gilbert Hoover of Helena, now Senior Officer Afloat, orders his forces to retire.  At almost the same time, Abe does the same.  After 40 minutes of the most confused, chaotic fireworks show in history, the battle ends as both forces limp away.Abe, unaware that only 2 US ships, Helena and Fletcher, could offer any type of realistic resistance decides to turn away and not bombard Henderson.  His force has been shot to pieces but is still powerful as Kirishima is relatively undamaged as are at least 5 other ships.  Still, due to heavy damage suffered aboard his own ship, Hiei, he decides to retire.He is crucified for this decision by Yamamoto, who relieves him of command.At 0344 Yamamoto orders the convoy to turn around and go back to the Shortlands.As the sun rises, so do American aircraft from Henderson Field.SBDs and TBFs roar in to finish off the crippled Hiei, just north of Savo at a distance of about 14 miles.56 sorties from SBDs and TBFs, as well as 14 B17s attacked Hiei and other cripples in Iron Bottom Sound.As the attacks increased throughout the day, Abe ordered Hiei scuttled as she was listing heavily from the torpedoes dropped by the TBFs.The final tally is frightful:Japanese:1 BB and 2 DDs sunk4 DDs damagedBetween 5-800 men KIAUS:2 CLs and 4 DDs sunk2 CAs damaged, 2 DDs damaged1439 men KIADespite the disparity in ships sunk and men lost, the battle is considered a US victory because of the failure of the Japanese to complete their mission objective.JuneauJuneau and Gilbert Hoover's decision to steam on…

David and Rachel discuss the tragic sinking of the SS Admiral Sampson in Puget Sound. Script by listener Mick.

Last time we spoke the Qing dynasty was looking dreadful. More and more peoples were flocking to the Taiping, as the European forces were humiliating the Qing government. Yet the more independent figure of Zeng Guofan and his Xiang army was making headway with its siege of Anqing, so much so it forced the shield king to depart from Nanjing to meet the enemy on the field. The foreign community had not completely lost its faith in the Taiping and sent envoys to see what relations could be made. Then the grand pincer attack of the Taiping kings failed horribly and they were unable to stop the Xiang army from capturing Anqing. Nanjing was now threatened yet again and it seemed no headway was being made with the foreigners to earn their support. Can the Taiping come back from such defeats? #32 This episode is The Taiping Rebellion part 9: Li Hongzhang and the Anhui Army   Welcome to the Fall and Rise of China Podcast, I am your dutiful host Craig Watson. But, before we start I want to also remind you this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Perhaps you want to learn more about the history of Asia? Kings and Generals have an assortment of episodes on history of asia and much more  so go give them a look over on Youtube. So please subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry for some more history related content, over on my channel, the Pacific War Channel where I cover the history of China and Japan from the 19th century until the end of the Pacific War. On August 22nd of 1861, Emperor Xianfeng died at the age of 30. The probable cause of his death was tuberculosis, but many romanticize it as him dying of shame and disgrace, never returning to Beijing. I think his rampant abuse of opium may have contributed also. Zeng Guofan received the news on September 14th and had this to write “Heaven has collapsed, the earth is split open. My emperor, from the time he came to the throne until today, over the course of twelve years, never knew a day when he wasn't consumed by worry over our dangers. Now Anqing is finally conquered, and the longhairs have begun to weaken. It looks as if the war has reached a turning point. But my emperor did not live long enough to hear the report of victory, so his dejection and melancholy will follow him into eternity. What a terrible agony that is for me, and for all of his ministers.” Xianfeng had died after just 11 years of rule and to make matters worse, the throne was supposed to go from father to son, but Xianfeng was notably infertile. In spite of spending almost his entire time with a harem of 18 concubines and wives for years, Xianfeng had managed to only father one son. This son in 1861 was 5 years of age. Hong Rengan began to preach and boast about the situation. “Xianfeng left behind a little demon who is several years old and will find it difficult to continue the demon rule. This is precisely the time for us to seize the opportunity to uphold Heaven, and render ourselves not unworthy in our role as heroes of the world.” Confidence in the dynasty was crumbling, many of the elites within Beijing began to compare the previous Qing emperors' reigns to the current situation. Yet while many of these elites lamented about how the dynasty was in decay, none offered any remedy to the situation, much like our politicians today ahah.    As much as Beijing was in disarray, the Taiping were in no position to march upon it, afterall they had just lost Anqing. However the death of Xianfeng reinfigerated the Taiping nonetheless. Chen Yucheng and the remnants of his battered army were cut off in northern Anhui while Li Xiucheng was marching east into Zhejiang province. Zhejiang at this time held around 26 million people and Li Xiucheng planned to conquer the province and gain further independence from Hong Rengan. Hong Rengan did not want Zhejiang province, well at least not at this time, what he wanted was for the Taiping to consolidate and take back Anqing. Control over the Yangtze region was the key to his strategy of consolidating a southern empire and for that Anqing was a major component. He began to beg Li Xiucheng sending letters from Nanjing to turn his army back around to smash Zeng Guofan. “the Yangtze has been described as a serpent, with its head at Hubei, its body in Anhui, and its tail in Jiangnan. We don't have Hubei, and if we let go of Anhui as well, the serpent will be sundered, and the tail won't survive for long on its own.” To all of this Li Xiucheng simply replied that Anqing was a hopeless cause and that he would not leave Zhejiang. Hong Rengan was livid, but what could he really do. Now the way Hong Rengan described the Yangtze as a serpent, was something Zeng Guofan also ascribed to. Both men understood the enormous advantage Wuchang and Anqing presented; they both controlled vast regions of agriculture. But along the eastern coast, particularly the port cities held enormous wealth and this is what attracted Li Xiucheng to Zhejiang. As a result of him taking forces into Zhejiang, now the overall momentum of the Taiping strategy skewed to the east.   Hong Rengan had changed after his military disaster at Tongcheng. He was more bitter, angry that the foreigners would not support their cause. And the second he had left Nanjing, the Hong brothers had done everything they could to belittle him. One major thing they did was take away the need for Hong Rengans seal to forward information to the Heavenly Kings, thus taking the mediator monopoly from him. This also came at a time Hong Xiuquan's son was older and sitting in on important meetings, learning the ropes. The Heavenly son was gradually becoming more important than Hong Rengan, he was no longer the undisputed second in command of the movement. Despite this, Hong Rengan still remained in charge of foreign relations and much of the administration of Nanjing. While Hong Rengan was out of Nanjing, a ton of setbacks had occurred. The worst were the demands imposed upon the Taiping by Admiral Hope and Parkes, that the Taiping must stay at least 30 miles away from Shanghai and other treaty ports such as Hankou and Wuchang.   The new 5 year old heir to the Qing dynasty was the son of one of Xiangfeng's concubines, a pretty Manchu woman named Yehonala. She gave birth to the boy at the age of 20 and since he was the sole male this made her status rise as she was the mother of a soon reigning emperor, a rank that compared to that of being the wife of the emperor. Her title became known as Empress Dowager, and she is quite infamous in modern Chinese history, her name since becoming the Empress Dowager became Cixi. She is often compared to Queen Victoria, as both would be the most powerful women of the 19th century. When Xianfeng died, he issued an edict naming his 8 closest Manchu advisers as regents for his son. Traditionally when a new emperor was too young to rule, power was entrusted to regents or family members until the emperor became old enough. With the boy being 5 years of age, the regents could expect to rule over the empire for at least a decade, not a bad gig. Many of these regents hated the Europeans and dreamed of breaking the treaties. Yet Prince Gong, who many thought was too soft on the foreigners, sought a plan to appease the foreigners by creating a office of foreign affairs, so that in the meantime all the strength of the Qing empire could be brought down upon the Taiping.   Now the only check to the powers of the new regents was the pair of Empress Dowagers, Cixi and the Xianfengs widow . Before his death he had given them each an imperial seal. While all edict would be composed by the regents, the Dowager empresses would hold veto powers using their seals. The widow proved compliant to the regents from the offset, but Cixi did not follow the regents without question. She began to assert her independence and threatened to withhold approval for some of the regents' policy decisions, creating a tension between the 8 male regents and the mother of the emperor. The tensions came to a head in late October when Xianfeng's remains were finally brought back to Beijing. In the grand funeral procession, 124 bearers carried the dead Emperor and at their head was Sushun the top ranking regent. The two dowager empresses traveled with a forward party escorting the young emperor in a closed palaquin. The empresses would have a single day in the capital before Sushun would get there and they quickly went to work.   The empresses met with Prince Gong immediately, using their private guards to thwart some of the other regents who were with them from preventing the audience. Some of the regents even tried to stop the boy emperor from meeting with Prince Gong, but Prince Gong had become quite popular in Beijing, having been the only one who stayed to do anything to help the city when the foreigners attacked, thus the population, and more importantly the Beijing guards stopped the regents forces. It also turns out Cixi had spent weeks secretly meeting with Prince Gongs brother at the hunting retreat in Rehe and they formed a plan. Prince Gong accompanied the empresses into Beijing making sure the regents were nowhere near them. Then Prince Gong read out an edict in the emperors name using the empress dowagers seals, charging Sushun and the other regents of treason, who could have seen that one coming. A detachment of Manchu guards led by Prince Gongs brother rode out to confront Sushun, arresting him and the other regents. They were accused of causing a war with Britain and France by misleading the late Emperor Xianfeng with treacherous advice. They were blamed for the kidnapping of Harry Parkes and other envoys, breaking faith with the foreign community and provoking Elgin to march on the capital. They also prevented the emperor against his will from returning to Beijing and faked the Emperor's will to make them regents, this is some real game of thrones shit right here.    The trail was quick, as you would imagine, and within a week the regents were found guilty of all charges, gasp. 5 of them were striped of their rank and banished to the western frontier. The 3 most powerful regents, Sushun, Duanhua and Zaiyuan were sentenced to death, but in display of compassion, Cersei Lanister, I mean Empress Dowager Cixi, no idea how I mixed up those two figures, I see what you did Mr. George R Martin, Cixi granted Zaiyuan and Duanhua the privilege of strangling themselves with silk, but it turned out to be a symbolic gesture as they were hung in a dungeon. For Sushun who proved to be her true rival, he was beheaded in public on November 8th in a cabbage market. Now edicts proclaims empress dowager Cixi would quote “should in person administer the government and by assisted by a counselor or counselors, to be chosen from among the princes of the highest order, and immediately allied to the throne”. Thus Empress Dowager Cixi with Prince Gong as her chief adviser became the new ruler of the Qing dynasty.    Now coming back to a point I made quite awhile back, I think during the first episode of the series, Karl Marx predicted in 1853 that the Taiping rebellion would cripple British trade in China and he was quite wrong, at least initially. Ironically, the civil war severed the internal trade networks within China causing merchants to dramatically look to external trade thus booming British trade. Figures rose about 30 percent from 1860-1861, but then another large event unfolded, another civil war, this time in America. Britain was thus trapped between two large civil wars. British commerce relied heavily upon both these nations. The United States, aka King Cotton in the south, provided the cotton for British textiles, which they sold in the far east. ¾'s of Britain cotton came from the US south and because of the tricky political situation now Britain could not afford to deal with those southerners lest they get caught up in the civil war. Now until the cotton dried up from the US, Britain was able to undersell the Chinese domestic cotton market, but with the outbreak of the war, the prices rose too high and now the Chinese were not buying their stuff. British exports dropped dramatically, causing textile factories to shut down. Cotton was just one part of the conundrum, because alongside it, the Americans consumed around 2/3rd of the green tea purchased by British merchants from China. Thus the British tea and textile trade was being torn to bits.   There was one gleaming light of hope however. The new treaty ports in China offered some new opportunities. The British could trade between the ports, especially those along the Yangtze river. Hell the internal trade networks were shattered as a result of the civil war, but the British enjoyed steamship power along the rivers and the ability to go freely from port to port. Now Britain sought profit, to do so they needed to expand the Chinese markets, and this meant doing some business with the Taiping who held some of the good ports. Until now Britain had avoided open relations with the Taiping. Now on May 13th of 1861 Britain announced recognition of the confederacy meaning Britain would treat the south as a separate government contending for power and not a lawless rebellion. This meant Britain could loan money and purchase arms and supplies for the Confederacy. To the merchants in China this seemed to be the ideal situation that should be adopted there. Many called for treating the Taiping the same as the confederacy, hell the confederacy was recognized after mere months, while the Taiping had been around for 10 years. The house of commons debated the matter and after long a tedious back and forths it was decided the neutrality stance must be sustained, given however that the Taiping did not hinder British trade within the provinces they controlled.   Meanwhile Li Xiucheng's army was running rampant in Zhejiang province, taking the capital of Hangzhou in December of 1861 after over 8 weeks of siege. The city had 2.3 million inhabitants and it proved quite easy to starve them out. Li Xiucheng had his men fire arrows with messages into the city stating the people would not be harmed and would be given the choice to join the Taiping or be left to leave freely. As one Qing commander at Hangzhou put it “Because the Loyal King issued orders not to harm the people, the people didn't help fight against him … Thus, none of the people suffered at the hands of the longhairs, and they all turned around and blamed the Imperials for their afflictions.” Thus the Manchu garrison burnt themselves alive while Qing officials slit their throats, but the common people went unmolested, nice for a change. It also seems Li Xiucheng took notice of the horrifying atrocities performed by Zeng Guofan at Anqing and wanted to earn the high ground with the commoners by pointing out how terrible the Manchu were. He even let the Manchu and Qing officials in Hangzhou go free, though as I said many took the alternative path of suicide.    Hangzhou was the capital and lynchpin of Zhejiang province, an enormous blow to the Qing. But there was another city that was significant, Ningbo, a treaty port, on the other side of Hangzhou bay, and just due south of Shanghai. To go from Ningbo to Hangzhou by land was around 200 miles, roughly double the distance of that by ship. The Qing forces at Shanghai hoped Ningbo's close proximity would mean the foreigners might defend the city as well. But Bruce stamped that down pretty quick sending word to the consul of Ningbo that if the Taiping were to attack, the BRitish would not get involved. He also told Admiral hope “I do not think we can take upon ourselves the protection of Ningpo, we should not display British naval power near that city lest we get compromise ourselves in this civil contest”. Admiral Hope seems to have seen things differently as upon learning in may of 1861 that the Taiping were going to march on Ningbo, he dispatched Captain Roderick Dew in the 14 gunship Encounter to dissuade the rebels. Captain Dew was also told to try and make contact with any Taiping commanders nearest to Shanghai and to relay the same type of messages Parkes had when it came to Hankou. “Point out to the commander that the capture and destruction of the town of Ningpo would be extremely injurious to British trade and that he should desist from all hostile proceedings against the town. Don't commit yourself to the necessity of having recourse to force, but do remind him of what took place last year at Shanghai”.   After giving the veiled threat to the Taiping Captain Dew went into Ningbo and told the Qing officials to mount every possible defense they could. Dew was told by Hope that under no circumstances could he open fire on the Taiping, it really was just a bluff. But Hope also asked Dew to investigate Ningbo and figure out the quote “amount of auxiliary european force which you think sufficient for its defense”. It seems the real politik at play was this. Both Admiral Hope and Frederick Bruce were planning ahead for what they assumed would be a major policy change. Both men expected their government to change its mind and wanted to be ready at a whims notice to defend any British interests from the Taiping. But in essence as you can see their actions were also drawing in conflict with the Taiping, the old self fulfilling prophecy. Both men did not want to see the Qing overthrown by the Taiping, because they seemed the worse choice as far as trade was concerned. All the customs duties from treaty ports were being used by the Qing to pay the reparations to the British for the second opium war, ahaaaaa there it really is. If the Taiping took a port, well the British could expect no return, but to prop up the Qing meant an endless cash flow. Nonetheless the Taiping represented a large threat, the British simply did not have enough forces to defend all their interests for the meantime they had to play a sort of ballet between the Taiping and Qing.   Captain Dew ended up bringing 12 large cannons from the British armory at Shanghai and installed them on Ningpo's walls, figuring if it was not British manning them, well that didnt breach neutrality. But low and behold the Qing officials did not lift a finger to help defend the city, and why would they, if they made the situation worse perhaps the British would become more involved. When the Taiping approached Ningpo, the city emptied, well all those who could flee did. On November 26th the Taiping were 30 miles off from Ningpo and by December 2nd just a days march when the British sent a party to parley with them. The British pleaded for the Taiping to give the city one more week before assaulting it and they agreed to this for some unknown reason. On december 9th, 60,000 Taiping advanced in 2 columns towards the city gates as Taiping naval units rowed over to scale the walls from the sea. It was a relatively peaceful conquest as just about all Qing officials had fled prior. Of course the usual looting was done, but very little murders were performed. The French, American and British officials came to Ningpo to talk to the Taiping demanding they respect their trade privileges and the Taiping commanders agreed enthusiastically offering to execute anyone who dared lift a finger on any foreigner.  Thus for the Taiping this was an incredible victory and one step closer to establishing good relations with the foreigners.    1862 was a year of many unknowns for China, both Beijing and Nanjing were re-forming themselves and no one could accurately predict how the war would go. Zeng Guofan was building up his Xiang army now using Anqing as an HQ. His power base was now Anhui province. To the east, Li Xiucheng controlled Zhejiang and Jiangsu provinces, nearly a quarter of China's yearly income came from these combined territories. After grabbing Ningbo, the only logical step forward was, Shanghai. It was a gleaming gem, unbelievable revenues could be earned by its control. The past 2 years had shown Li Xiucheng that the British simply would not pay the Taiping proper recognition nor respect and so he sought to finally do something about it. Li Xiucheng began to prepare his army to return to Shanghai, this time not so lightly armed. Li XIucheng was never one to believe the foreigners could have ever been won over in the first place and now Hong Rengan's authority was widely diminished in Nanjing, as for out here in the east it was honestly Li Xiucheng's show.    As for the British, Ningbo seemed to not be trading much at all since the Taiping came, Anqing had fallen to Zeng Guofan and all the meanwhile Bruce was sending reports back home of endless Taiping atrocity stories whenever they took cities, most were fabricated. Bruce was trying to make parliament see that the stance of neutrality would eventually lead to the death of British trade. Harry Parkes also traveled back to Britain who would have a lot to say to the public about his time in China, his mistreatment afterall was the rationale for the burning of the summer palace. The very last deed he performed before sailing off was a last ditch attempt to stop the Taiping from approaching Shanghai, which they refused. In fact the negotiations had gone so terribly, one of Admiral Hope's commanders threatened to attack the rebels if they dared come near Shanghai.   Back to Zeng Guofan, he finally had Anqing, but now he faced the daunting need for more and more men. By taking Anqing he now gained the vast territory around it, holding tens of millions of people spreading towards the east. The Taiping still controlled many towns in northern Anhui and Chen Yucheng was in full retreat going downstream towards Nanjing. Everything east of Nanjing was pretty much a hopeless cause. Zeng Guofan's men were exhausted, they spent basically a year besieging Anqing, many wanted to go back home, morale was low. Zeng Guofan began to rebuild in Anqing using his own men as laborers. Under his direction they rebuilt the confucian academy and examination hall, repaired the walls and restored the markets. Next he set up relief stations to help the famine stricken population and helped them restore the agricultural output of the region. He also sent his brother Guoquan back to their homelands of Hunan to recruit another 6000 Hunanese soldiers, because the next push was going to be against Nanjing. Now Zeng Guofan was taking a bit of a risk sending his brother to do such a thing. There was a coup going on in Beijing, the Cixi Cersei Lannister one I spoke of, he did not know what the outcome was going to be from said coup and his actions could be judged as anti Qing since he was gaining more and more power independently from Beijing. Zeng Guofan already had a growing number of critics within Beijing who saw him as a growing threat to the central government. Thus he simply dispatched word back to the capital stating he needed to gather as many forces as he could to be able to march upon Nanjing to ride the dynasty of the Taiping menace. But this was all a facade, in order to actually defeat Nanjing, it had to be strangled from supplies, similar to ANqing. Yet Chen Yucheng loomed around in northern Anhui, and he was still yet to consolidate all of southern Anhui. He would need to take vast territory in southern Anhui towards Hangzhou in Zhejiang province and this would require colossal forces. But a strategy formed in his mind, he envisioned 3 separate armies attacking in unison: one from Anqing going east downriver to Nanjing; another led by Zuo Zongtang would march through Jiangxi into Zhejiang to smash Hangzhou; the last would march through Jiangsu and fight towards Suzhou and then Nanjing. But such feats required vast amounts of men, and he was beginning to think his homelands of Hunan were being drained dry of youthful men. Thus he cast aside his conservative methods for the first time and began to cast a wider net, he was going to trust a non Hunanese man to help him in his endeavors, one of my favorite figures in modern Chinese history, Li Hongzhang. Li Hongzhang was 38 years old at this time, a scholar from Anhui province and he was asked to help form a new provincial militia that could supplement Zengs Hunanese one. Just like Zeng Guofan, Li Hongzhang was a Hanlin scholar, an elite who scored top of the examination system. He was 11 years younger to Zeng Guofan, his father literally passed the Jinshi examination in Beijing in the same group as Zeng Guofan in 1838. The two men became close early on, when Li arrived in Beijing in 1844, fresh from passing his provincial examination, it was Zeng Guofan who agreed to serve as his teacher to help prepare him for the Jinshi, which he passed with distinction in 1847. They were tied by friendship through Li's father, making Zeng Guofan something like an uncle to him, but even more than that, Zeng Guofan was his teacher and mentor. Within the Confucian culture, a student and teacher were akin to a son and father.   Despite such close ties, it took Zeng Guofan a long time to come to the point where he would trust Li Hongzhang with his own army. Zeng Guofan knew the man was brilliant, he also knew he was ambitious. Li's older brother served on Zeng Guoan's staff, but when Li Hongzhang came to Zeng Guofan's military HQ in Hunan in 1858 looking for employment he was turned away. He was not just turned away, he was literally ignored for over a month. Yes Li spent a month hanging around until he got so frustrated he demanded Zeng Guofan given him a answer, which Zeng did, through an aid with some sarcasm he said to Li “perhaps the Hunan army was a bit to shallow a beach in which to harbor so large a ship as Li”. What Zeng was doing and would continue to do for a few years was to break Li's arrogance. He did this by various means, such as having guards drag Li literally out of bed if he ever overslept. Zeng was trying to toughen the man up, to test his grit. Li for his part hung in there, trying to convince Zeng of his loyalty and humility. They got in fights of course and this led Li to leave for a time, but by 1862 their relationship was solid and Zeng either through his trust in the man or in desperation entrusted him with basically being his second. Now there were some negatives to all of this. Zeng Guofan had very experienced military commanders at this point, much more experiences than Li Hongzhang, but Zeng Guofan was a scholar more than anything else and he valued Li Hongzhangs hanlin scholarship above all else.   In early 1862, Li Hongzhang began to form a regional militia using the same model as the Xiang army, which would be known as the Anhui army. He performed the same type of recruitment scheme, going first to his home district, forming companies of troops from the same homes to serve officers who they had connections to. Several thousand Anhui commoners were brought to Anqing by February to begin training under the guidance of veteran officers of the Xiang army. This new army would have the same structure, same training and for all intensive purposes was a mirror image of the Xiang army. The only real difference was that Li Hongzhang took orders from Zeng Guofan whom was supposed to be taking orders from Beijing but was increasingly becoming more and more independent. Empress Dowager Cixi and Prince Gong basically had no choice, but to allow Zeng Guofan his autonomy, because he was proving to be one of the very few commanders capable of dealing defeats to the Taiping. In November they issued edicts appointing Zeng Guofan as the governor-general and imperial commissioner of Anhui, Jiangsu and Jiangxi alongside military control over Zhejiang. This was some pretty crazy stuff, he basically controlled 4 of the richest and most densely populated provinces.    Zeng Guofan received the news of his new appointments at the same time as the news of what occurred during the coup, he was pretty surprised to say the least. Control over Zhejiang was a miserable part of the news, as it was literally being attacked with Hangzhou and Ningbo falling. He was a bit overwhelmed by it all and wrote in his diary “This power is too great, my stature will be too high, and my undeserved reputation has outgrown itself. This terrifies me to the extreme.” Despite his anxiety over it all, Zeng Guofan set to work and basically ordered his subordinates to perform a complete takeover of the civil administration of eastern China. Zeng Guofan's top subordinates became the individual governors of each province under him with Li Hongzhang receiving Jiangsu, Zuo Zongtang Zhejiang and two other proteges taking Jiangxi and Anhui. Now Zeng Guofan was able to redirect tax revenue from the provinces under his control, meaning he could hire and supply more troops.    I would like to take this time to remind you all that this podcast is only made possible through the efforts of Kings and Generals over at Youtube. Please go subscribe to Kings and Generals over at Youtube and to continue helping us produce this content please check out www.patreon.com/kingsandgenerals. If you are still hungry after that, give my personal channel a look over at The Pacific War Channel at Youtube, it would mean a lot to me. Emperor Xianfeng was dead and Empress Dowager Cixi was in charge. Zeng Guofan was making a ton of progress, but there simply was not enough men so he had his student Li Hongzhang form a new Anhui army.  

Admiral Mike “Nasty” Manazir is a veteran Top Gun fighter pilot, a U.S. Aircraft Carrier Captain, and a two-star admiral (USN, Ret.). He's written a terrific book on leadership: “Learn How To Lead To Win” which Hugh inhaled and got the admiral to discuss at length both on-air and off this AM. Listen to it all. Plus, law professors of Left and Right — UT's Steve Vladeck and Case Western's Jonathan Adler joined Hugh to discuss #GarageGate as did Punchbowl's Jake Sherman, Axios' Josh Kraushaar, and USA Today's Francesca Chambers. BOOK: https://www.amazon.com/Learn-How-Lead-Win-Leadership/dp/B0BRZ7DWS8See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Chris and James start by talking about one of the coolest anti-heroes in Sci-Fi, Thrawn! Then they talk about video games because that's what the show's generally about. James is playing Disco Elysium (I personally couldn't believe he hadn't played this already. It seems like a very “James” kinda game), Mother (I can't, I can't play a game called Mother…it's creepy), and Iron Lung (Spoilers: It is not about the hyperbaric chamber Michael Jackson used). Chris is still loving Game Pass because it's awesome. He proves it by playing NORCO and Tunic which are great games! Tunic was robbed of at least one Game Award! If you want to be a part of the conversation or if you have a pressing question that you want us to weigh in on… You can reach us on twitter @mngamerspodcast. If you don't use twitter you can send email the old fashion way to podcast@mostlynormalgamers.com. Sign up for our new newsletter, Mostly Normal Monthly at mngamers.substack.com! Back issues can be found there too! Lastly, go to Spotify and do our weekly poll cuz it's fun! Text or VM to (507) 291-2991 Jon Swanson @jonnysamsonite Chris Stern @vgoccasion Angie @stellarsmalls James Halliday @buttlordprimus --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/mostlynormalgamers/message

Retired Vice Admiral William "Dean" Lee returns to the podcast with an update from his last appearance on Episode 102. He also discusses losing his tribe and affirming that Isolation is Terminal. How you discover who your real friends are and how to continue to showing boldness in the workplace, and normalizing prayer. Podcasts Episodes: Ep 102: Full Interview with Vice Admiral William "Dean" Lee Boldness in the Workplace w/ Vice Admiral William "Dean" Lee --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/mensalliancetribe/support

FOLLOW UP: DFT WITHDRAWS APPEAL AGAINST FOI REQUESTDr Greg Marsden has confirmed that the Department for Transport has withdrawn their appeal over the Freedom of Information requirement for the justification of the Government's plans for decarbonisation of transport. He has even been supplied with the answers to his three questions. Click here to see his Tweet about this. Now we wait on the analysis of said information. FOLLOW UP: BRITISHVOLT RESCUE PACKAGE SLASHES VALUATIONBritishvolts has entered administration, you can find out more by clicking this link to Peter Campbell's Twitter thread. Just last year Britishvolt was valued in excess of $775 million, now there are rescue packages which state the company is worth $39 million. There are, reportedly, two consortiums bidding. To read more, click this Automotive News Europe article here. For more context around battery factories and how the UK appears to be sinking behind others, click this article from The Guardian. ENVIRONMENT AUDIT COMMITTEE RECOMMEND IEA PLAN TO UKThe Environment Audit Committee, from Parliament, has recommended the UK Government implement the ideas from the International Energy Agency (IEA)'s ten-point plan to reduce oil usage. Some of the suggestions are reducing the speed limits by at least 10km/h, allowing cars to enter cities on alternate days of the week, encouraging working from home and more. Click here to read the article on Autocar. For the IEA plan, click this link here. FUEL STILL TOO EXPENSIVEWhilst the wholesale price of oil has dropped, particularly in December, the retail price has not matched the same pace. This comes as no surprise to anyone, mind you. There has been seemingly constant calls on the big retailers, including supermarkets, to drop their prices more than they have, but to no avail. Click here to learn more, from a Motoring Research article. POTHOLE DAMAGE UP 34% SINCE 2016In another piece of news that is not surprising in any shape or form, we find out that damage to cars from potholes has risen 34% since 2016. The suggestion is that due to the cold and the wet, which this winter has treated the UK to, the quality of roads will deteriorate further, meaning even more claims. Sunday was ‘National Pothole Day', as promoted by Admiral insurance. Click here for more, from Motoring Research. UNMARKED SPEED CAMERA VANS TRIALEDNorthamptonshire Police are trialling the use of unmarked speed camera vans, in an effort to see if they deter excessive speeding and phone use behind the wheel. The force are at pains to explain they do not financially gain anything, bar an admin fee, for any tickets issues. They also explain that drivers do change behaviour when they see marked...

http://loosescrewsed.com Join us on discord! And check out the merch store! PROMO CODES https://discord.io/LooseScrews Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/LooseScrewsED Squad Update: War in xians, election in tripu 1-0 Critical over-heating systems: 6 Andromedae, kz Andromedae and lambda Andromedae Trying to trigger an expansion from 7 Andromedae we should have started it today, tbd weather or not today was the first Oya Maelstrom (#8) updates: Fighting invasions in hip 11111 94% Alert in Jeng 0% All details in the #standing-orders and/or the #loose-screws-factions channels of the Discord. In-Game News: Aisling wants some aegis to defend her! Salvation weapons stabilizers more ax guns for your ax builds! Admiral tanner receives pardon for assault on hind mine (because he was right) WhErE tHe ChEeSe At? Romano Cheese One of the most popular Italian cheeses, Romano cheese is made from pasteurized or unpasteurised milk using animal, plant, or microbial rennet. It has a grainy texture, a hard and brittle rind and grates easily. The curing of Romano takes not less than 5 months and longer if it is planned for grating.

This week Trevor discussed the Biden administration's proposed federal ban on gas stoves, “Admiral” “Rachel” Levine's thoughts on “breaking the glass ceiling,” literal clown world where “Joker” is pregnant from a new DC comic book, and more … Segment TimesIntro (00:20)News (07:53) - Keep what you need at arm's length with Clip & Carry sheathes & holsters - https://clipandcarry.mantoolsmedia.com/ Cool Stuff (25:05) - Top Extracts Premium Kratom Products - https://kratom.mantoolsmedia.com/ Tools of the Week (34:46) - Acme Tools, now thru Feb 1st get a free beanie & gloves with the purchase of a dewalt heated Jacket!!! - http://acmetools.mantoolsmedia.com/Sports - Our pick ‘em pool is done, but you can still create your own contest with Playaction Pools using the code TOOLS for 15% off - https://playactionpools.com/ This Week in His Story (48:00) - Get the historical value & security of precious metals with Vaulted Gold Investment - https://gold.mantoolsmedia.com/ Thanks to all of our Sponsors - http://sponsors.mantoolsmedia.com/ Get More Man Tools:Our Website - https://mantoolsmedia.com/Our Socials - https://links.mantoolsmedia.com/ Licensed Music by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.com© Man Tools Media LLC Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A name within the Lincoln athletic department has emerged as a candidate on several Big Ten Commissioner hot boards.

The year 1915 was a significant year for the participants of the Great War, and a great many memorable events occurred. The Gallipoli Campaign commenced, along with the Raid on the Suez Canal, the Second Battle of Ypres began, the RMS Lusitania passenger ship was sent to the seabed by a German U-Boat, to name a few. A lot was happening. The Great War was heating up. These campaigns, events and battles are definitely areas of WWI that most military history enthusiasts have heard of, but have you heard of the Battle of Dogger Bank? You can find the Hardtack Community on all of our socials via our linktree. If you have any feedback on our episodes or suggestions for future episodes, please send us an email: hardtackpod@gmail.com Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Make your Own Hardtack! Hardtack Recipe (Survival Bread) - Bread Dad Civil War Recipe: Hardtack (1861) – The American Table Sources: Germany's high sea fleet in the World War, written by Carl Friedrich Heinrich Reinhard Scheer (Admiral in the Imperial German Navy) https://archive.org/details/germanyshighseaf00sche The king's ships were at sea : the war in the North Sea, August 1914-February 1915 by Goldrick, James https://archive.org/details/kingsshipswereat0000gold/page/n5/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/navaloperations00newbgoog/page/n14/mode/2up (from page 82) Philbin, Tobias R., III (1982). Admiral von Hipper: The Inconvenient Hero. Amsterdam: B. R. Grüner Publishing Co. Battle of Dogger Bank: https://navymuseum.co.nz/explore/by-themes/world-war-one/battle-of-dogger-bank/ The Battle of Dogger Bank as then Lieutenant AD Boyle serving in HMS New Zealand recalled it: https://navymuseum.co.nz/explore/by-themes/world-war-one/battle-of-dogger-bank-lt-a-d-boyle/ SIGINT and Electronic Warfare (As it relates to Room 40) https://web.archive.org/web/20120805161935/http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/cryptologic_spectrum/electronic_warfare.pdf https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-war-at-sea https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/the-battle-of-dogger-bank-january-1915/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/hardtackpod/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/hardtackpod/support

Join Joe Rupe from the Fringe FM as we explore the path before us.  The path is dark but we are the light that shows the path forward.  There's lots of cheesy woo woo things we could call this, "the shadow", "the abyss", "the nothing", whatever its called, it's YOU.It is up to each of us to move toward the most congruent future we can create.  We know the way, we choose the path, we light the dark.  Hang out with us live and check out Fringe FM - Joe's radio station.  It's DOPE.https://fringe.fmFind Admiral Hitzz on IG: https://www.instagram.com/sonicportaland find all the links: https://bluecollarmystics.orghttps://www.contactatthecabin.comSupport the show

This week Bill and I have a special guest with us, he's been here before and we always love to have him, he's the one, the only, my good buddy, Jon Parshall.If you've been listening to the podcast as of late, you are well aware that we are making our way through the slug fest that was the Guadalcanal campaign.  While the fighting ashore has raged on and off between pitched engagements, the seas around the Canal have been anything but quiet.  Savo Island in August was a debacle for the US Navy, the carrier forces under Admiral fletcher landed some fairly significant blows on the Japanese carrier force at Eastern Solomons, and Admiral Norman Scott finally exacted some revenge for Savo at the Battle of Cape Esperance.  The US Navy has seen it's share of victories, as well as defeats in these bloody waters.  And while the fighting has been significant at sea…it ain't over.  Not even close.  The calendar now sits in October 1942, October 26 exactly.  And ashore, the Japanese have launched a massive offensive to finally push the Marines and Army off Guadalcanal.  The October offensive and the fighting that takes place ashore will be remembered as the Battle of Henderson Field.  The fighting at sea that takes place only a day later, all coinciding with the offensive ashore, will be called the Battle of Santa Cruz.Talking Points:Japanese Preparations and Plans Pre-Battle:The combined fleet sorties from Truk on October 11.  The force is very large, the largest Japanese force that has put to sea since Midway and consists of 4 CVs and 1 light CV3 Fleet CVs1 Light CV4 BBs8 CAs2 CLs24 DDsThe Japanese had planned that the naval force that was now at sea would not necessarily support the operation ashore, but would directly benefit from the success of the ground offensiveThat being said, once Hyakutake's infantry had captured Henderson, the Japanese combined fleet would then be free from any attack from land based air.The pre-sailing plans called for the Japanese so-called Support Force to make a high-speed run into the Guadalcanal area to intercept and destroy any American fleet units that would come to the rescue of the infantry following the Japanese land-based offensive's success.This is part of the reason why Kongo and Haruna blasted the shit out of Henderson on October 14-15.  Both to soften the defenses, destroy the airfield and also, hopefully draw the Americans out to fight.Japanese intel, which we have not talked about very much, had deduced via traffic patterns that at least 1 US CV was in the Canal area.Based on traffic patterns, the Japanese had seen a large flurry of messages go out to a “powerful unit” south of Guadalcanal that would receive the messages and maintain radio silence.This of course is CV8Again, based on traffic patterns, the Japanese had deduced that another major fleet unit had sailed from Pearl Harbor on or about Oct 15.This is the newly repaired CV6The Japanese estimated that this task force was headed south as well to join up with the other “ghost” forceJapanese. Intel also read US newspapers and listened to the news, as US officials ignorantly declared on October 20 that US Naval forces off Guadalcanal were preparing for a “sea clash”The Land influences the SeaDelays ashore from the Japanese 17th Army (future Henderson Field offensive force) caused Y-Day to be pushed from October 19 to the 22nd.  Incidentally, Hiyo suffers a fire in her engineering spaces that causes her to return to port and not take part in the planned upcoming action.17th Army again delays the offensive until the 24th further irritating the IJN.The delay by the Army forced the Navy to delay its attack which allowed CV6 to rejoin the American forces off Guadalcanal on October 24 and thus restoring some parity to any upcoming carrier battle.US Forces for battleUS forces are under the overall command of ADM Thomas Kinkaid TF 16 under Kinkaid has:CV61 CA1 CL 8 DDs 1 BB (SoDak)TF 17 under ADM George Murray has:CV82 CAs2 CLs 6 DDs Previous to CV6 returning from Pearl, CV8 was the only US CV in the area.CV8 was still, despite having been at Midway, an unexperienced CV.That being said, her aircrew was a mix of veterans and newbies.VS-8 skipper Gus Widhelm Veteran of Coral Sea and hit and run raids with VS-5Fantastic leaderVB-8 SBD pilot Clayton FisherVeteran of the Flight to Nowhere, June 4 afternoon raid and Mogami/Mikuma raid on June 6, but otherwise relatively fresh CV6 had just returned to the fleet after having been patched up after Eastern SolomonsCV6 still retained her well-trained deck crews, DC parties and the like.  Battle tested, CV6 would need all the help she could get in the upcoming fightWhile a veteran carrier, she deployed a brand-new air group, AG 10.Air Group 10, although new, is rife with veterans of different engagementsVF-10, better known as the Grim Reapers, is led by the legendary Jimmy Flatley and hosts names like:Jack LepplaDon Flash GordonWhitey Feightner and most importantly, Swede VejtasaBucky Lee led VS-10, not so much a veteran, but an incredible leader.  He had with him names that were both familiar and would become familiarBirney StrongMartin “Red” CarmodyAgain, technically a new air group, Air Group 10 would prove to be, arguably, the finest Air Group put to sea in 1942, and maybe the warThe Battle draws nearNight of October 24-25 the Japanese send out searches to find the suspected US CVs but do not find them.  They do detect ADM Willis Lee's BB56 but do not attack due to extreme rangeAround noon on October 25 US PBYs spot 2 Japanese CVsMonitoring the radio intercepts in Noumea, Halsey reads the sightings and messages Kinkaid “STRIKE! REPEAT STRIKE!”Amplifying reports allowed Kinkaid to launch at 1430 and again at 1520 his main strikeThe Japanese turned north, but radio silence does not allow Kinkaid to recall his strikers. This ends up, not so well, in that the majority of the strike gets lost and is, thankfully, shepherded back to CV6 by Swede Vejtasa who recalls that CV6 has an oil leak, spots the leak and follows it, at wave-top height, back to CV6 with the majority of the strike…at night.The Carrier Battle (Morning)Both sides readied search planes for a first light search patternDuring the night of 25-26, US PBYs spotted, and attacked, the Japanese including Zuikaku.  The PBYs missed, and their contact reports essentially went unheard.The Japanese got scouts off first, between 0415 and 0445.CV6 launched her own scouts around 0445 as well.  Kinkaid finally received the PBYs sighting report at 0512 but deemed the information old (which it was) and considered it to be inaccurate.One of CV6s scouts saw and approached one of Nagumo's Kate scout planes, only 85 miles away from CV6, confirming the presence of Japanese CVs in the area. First BloodBucky Lee, skipper of VS-10 spotted Nagumo's CVs at 0650 and climbed to attack altitude, but were driven off by CAPLee's scouting report alerted every SBD in the area, and drove them towards the Japanese like flies to honeyRadioman Clarence Garlow heard Lee's report, jotted it down and reported the contact to his pilot, Birney Strong.Birney and Eastern Solomons, pressure from Crommelin to attack and a bruise on his prideStrong diligently plotted the contact report, adjusted his fuel mixture for maximum distance and headed in the direction of the sighting.Showing off his supreme navigational skills, Strong found the enemy 20 minutes later as 2 of the 3 CVs in the area emerged from cloud cover.At the same time that Strong and his wingman Irvine approached, 2 other SBDs, one piloted by Red Carmody were being harassed by CAP Zeros, leaving Strong and Irvine wide open for a clear attack.Diving from 14,000 feet, at 0740, Strong popped in and out of clouds for the 30 seconds he dove.  At 1,500 feet the clouds parted and directly beneath him was the flight deck of Zuiho.Both Strong and Irvine planted their 500 pounders into the flight deck of Zuiho. The hits were not fatal, but did force her withdrawal.At 0658, Japanese scouts spot the HornetDespite the fact that the US spotted the Japanese first, it is the IJN that gets their strike off first (no surprise here)At 0725 Shokaku and Zuikaku launches their strikes, 62 aircraft led by MurataTalk about MurataComposition of the strikeAs the Japanese strike is on its way to Hornet, CV8 and a small CV6 strike passes them in the air.Let's talk about how the US strikes during this entire battle are very piecemeal, unorganized and generally unpreparedAs the Hornet strikers pass the Japanese, Zeros from Zuiho break off and attack the CV6 formationThe TBFs are hit hard as their fighter protection was in the process of making S turns to keep up with the slow TBFs and were on the outward leg of the turn during the attackAt 0850 Hornet's strike spotted Shokaku.  As the SBDs home in, they are hit again by Zuiho CAP, as well as Shokaku CAPGus Widhelm, strike leader, is shot down but later rescued.At the tail end of the formation is Clay FisherTalk about Clay's experienceHornet's strike, despite taking heavy casualties, is successful in hitting ShokakuJohn describe Shokaku damage 4-06 hits from 1000 poundersHornet Under AttackHornet receives word of the inbound strike from her outbound strikePoor coordination from CV6 and CV8 FDOs do not allow the CAP to engage in sufficient numbers to deter the incoming attack (Like Eastern Solomons)Japanese sight Hornet at 0855, but do not see CV6 as she dives into a rain squallHornet prepares for the attack, turns NE and dials up 31 knotsCAP engages at 15 miles but Vals break through and commence the attack at 0910First two Vals miss At 0912 Hornet is hit by three bombs within minutes1st bomb hits the flight deck and kills 60 men as it explodes 3 decks downMoments later another bomb struck the flight deck, this time exploding on the deck itself. The explosion blew an 11-foot hole in the deck, and the flying shrapnel killed another 30 of Hornet's crew. Still the rain of bombs came. Hornet suffered yet another hit when another 550-pound bomb penetrated three decks below and exploded there, causing severe damage but no loss of life. Seconds later, a damaged “Val” dive-bomber, hit by Hornet's own antiaircraft fire, plunged into the carrier's stack, glancing off of the port leading edge of the stack and smacking into the flight deck, the engine and propeller embedded firmly into the sea-blue stained Douglas fir flight deck. All of the hits suffered by Hornet thus far had occurred in a blinding fast span of just over two minutes. As Hornet reels from the Val attack, the Kates come into viewDescribe the Kate attack led by MurataHammer and anvil attack0915 Hornet is struck by 2 torpedoes starboard1 Val, having already dropped its load, swerves around Hornet from astern, passes the bridge and makes a wingtip vertical turn to crash into her port bowAt 0925 the attack is over and Hornet is dead in the water and listingFires were under control by 10, and she is being prepared for a two by NorthamptonThe Big E under attackJapanese Vals spot CV6 at 1000. They commence their attack at about 1015, led by SekiLT Keiichi Arima, who had hit the Big E at Eastern Solomons, again dives on CV6 and scores yet another hit on the ship.  Dead center near the bow.  The bomb flew through the flight deck and exploded in the water, showering CV6 with shrapnel and starting fires in the focsleMinutes later another bomb hits CV6, near the after portion of the forward elevator exploding in the hangar deck killing 40 menWilliam PinckneyAfrican American of slight build- carried wounded up the ladders to safety before he himself passed out, both wounded and with 3rd degree burns.  Navy CrossA third bomb was a tooth rattling near miss that opened hull plates and 2 empty fuel bunkersBy 1020, the attack was over.At 1035 the Kates arrived.  One of the CAP pilots to engage was Swede VejtasaDuring the attack on Hornet, Swede engaged and shot down one of the Vals that was about to dive on CV8, as well as one of the Vals that attacked CV6.Still aloft and with the majority of his ammunition still available, Swede switched off his two outboard weapons so as to conserve ammo, climbed above the Kate's altitude, dove into them and began picking them off one by one, dropping five of the bandits in about 15 seconds.His last target, another Kate, was riddled by Swede's guns, but flew on.  The aircraft piloted by Takei Kiyomi, dropped down, flew over SoDak and deliberately crashed into USS Smith.  The dead aircraft slid off the ship but the torpedo cooked off, setting the destroyer ablaze.Smith, under the command of LCDR Hunter Wood, steered directly into the boiling wake of SoDak.  The enormous wake thrown up by the battleship sliding along at 27 knots extinguished the flames, allowing the plucky little DD to resume station and resume firing.Vejtasa is credited with downing 7 Japanese aircraft in that one CAP mission, a record that still stands today. He would be recommended for the MOH, but instead would receive his 3rd (!) Navy CrossCV6 dodges a total of 9 Japanese torpedoes, throughout her ordeal USS South Dakota (BB-57) keeps station, a scant 1,000 yards astern, matching every move she makes so as to provide AAA support with her new 40mm bofors guns.SoDak claims 26 kills, an unlikely mark, but nevertheless, her guns and her adroit maneuvering certainly helped keep the Big E afloat.The returning Japanese (what few manage to return) get back to their CVs and speak of the tremendous amounts of American AA.  Some of those who returned were visibly shaken and could not speak due to shock.The Battle OverAt 1135 with CV8 out of action and CV6 heavily damaged, Kinkaid withdraws, leaving CV8 under tow by Northampton and a few screeners.At 1235 CV6 resumes landing ops and recovers the remaining aircraft aloft with only one operable elevator.  LSO Robin Lindsey, performs his legendary “virtuoso” He receives word from the bridge to stop landing aircraft as the deck is clogged.  Knowing that the majority of the remaining aircraft are SBDs, he elects to literally pull the plug from his headset, ignore orders and bring the boys down.  Lindsey landed so many planes that he was landing the last batch on the last arresting wire, unfazed. Last to land was Swede catching the #1 wire, with 56 other aircraft jammed ahead of him on the deck.At 1520, with the majority of US forces leaving the field of battle, Hornet is attacked again.  She is struck by 1 torpedo from Junyo. At this point, the remaining crew abandons ship and she is ordered to be scuttled.2 US DDs fire over 400 rounds into CV8 as well as torpedoes, but she refuses to sink.  (Harder than woodpecker lips)Knowing the IJN is closing, the DDs beat feet and get the hell out of the area, leaving CV8 to her enemy. 2 Japanese DDs finally finish Hornet off.Implications on the CampaignClearly Santa Cruz is a US defeat, although we claimed victory.  We leave the field of battle to the enemy and suffer more damage…clear defeat…in one way, a victory in another although unseen at that time.Japanese air losses have now reached a critical level.  Through attrition at Coral Sea, Midway, eastern Solomons, and especially Santa Cruz, more than half of the elite aviators who started the war are now dead.  Japanese pilot training and replacement systems problemsFinal Tally:US- 1 CV sunk, 1 DD sunk, 1 CV heavily damaged.  1 BB lightly damaged, 1 CL and 2 DDs damaged.81 aircraft lost266 men KIAJapanese- 1 CV heavily damaged, 1light CV damaged, 1 CA damaged, 1 DD damaged99 aircraft lost400-500 men KIA18% of Zero pilots killed 50% of Val crews killed31% of Kate crews killedHorrendous aircrew lossesUS AA, with the introduction of the 40mm account for roughly half of these losses!

Great Britain is considering Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine to stage a major counteroffensive against Russia in the spring. The tanks have 1,200 horsepower engines and are equipped with 120 mm guns. The decision is expected to be announced at the meeting of NATO officials at the Ramstein airbase in Germany on Jan. 20. The UK's willingness to supply battle tanks to Ukraine is a major escalation in World War III. It comes in response to France's decision to provide Ukraine with armored AMX-10 combat vehicles. Rick Wiles, Doc Burkhart. Airdate 1/9/23.You can partner with us by visiting TruNews.com/donate, calling 1-800-576-2116, or by mail at PO Box 690069 Vero Beach, FL 32969.The Fauci Elf is a hilarious gift guaranteed to make your friends laugh! Order yours today! https://tru.news/faucielfIt's the Final Day! The day Jesus Christ bursts into our dimension of time, space, and matter. You can order the second edition of Rick's book, Final Day. https://www.rickwiles.com/final-day

We review Season 2, Episodes 1 (Spoils of War) and 2 (Ruins of War) of The Bad Batch. Topics include: Echo is the voice of reason AZI-3 should be doing more than slinging drinks Matt is president of the Tech fan club Maybe we should stop using the stun setting? Where does Admiral Rampart rank on the all-time Imperial s**thead list? In our Question of the Week, we ask you who your favorite characters were (new and old) from the 2022 Star Wars series. In news, we discuss the possible production of Damon Lindelof's film, go over some Ahsoka and Hera rumors and consider what form a future Rian Johnson project might take.  All this and more! Episode Time Stamps: 06:16 - Question of the Week - Favorite 2022 Star Wars Series Characters 14:17 - The Damon Lindelof film is kicking off in April? 18:31 - Hera casting and Ahsoka plot rumors 24:10 - Future Rian Johnson Projects 26:30 - The Bad Batch: Season 2, Episode 1 (Spoils of War) and Episode 2 (Ruins of War) Review Please subscribe, rate and review our show and chat us up on Twitter or in email. Twitter: @facpapod Web site: http://FromACertainPointAskew.com Podawan Podcast Network: @podawans Intro/Outro - Galactic by Seb Jaeger (via https://filmstro.com/music)

Admiral William H. McRaven is a retired United States Navy four-star admiral who served as the ninth commander of the United States Special Operations Command. As the commander of U.S. Special Operations Command, Adm. McRaven led a force of 69,000 men and women and was responsible for conducting counter-terrorism operations worldwide. He is a recognized national authority on U.S. foreign policy and has advised presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama and other U.S. leaders on defence issues.

Hayley and Brian recap all of the awesomeness that occurred in 2022 in the world of Geeky TV, movies and comics. They are joined once again by the Admiral of Animation, Zuhair Ali of the Animation Deliberation podcast. Unfortunately, Liz Charlotte wasn't able to participate as was previously mentioned, but a good time was still had by all (except by Hayley, when Brian and Zuhair started talking anime) ;)EMAIL: SPARCPODCAST@GMAIL.COMTWITTER: https://twitter.com/SourcePagesCastINSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thesourcepagespodcast/FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/SPARCPODCASTAcross the Bifrost: The Mighty Thor - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/across-the-bifrost-the-mighty-thor-podcast/id1572200841Dan and Ian Have Questions - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dan-and-ian-have-questions-podcast/id1587402809Commute: The Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/commute-the-podcast/id1552657624Segabits - https://segabits.com/Apollo City Comics - https://www.instagram.com/apollocitycomicspodcast/?hl=enMachtails From the Cantina - https://www.facebook.com/machtailsfromthecantina/Rebel Force Radio Presents "The Babu Freaks" - https://www.rebelforceradio.com/shows/category/Babu+FreaksDC On Screen: http://www.dconscreen.com/

Welcome to the 300th episode where we invited two of our closest friends and collaborators, Admiral Atlas and Susie Soto of ‘Haus OF CHAR' to sit down and recreate some of our favorite dialogue driven scenes from the world of film. Enjoy and be safe out there! Mixed and edited by: Wesley Swanson. Movie audio clips used: ‘A BRONX TALE, ‘THE DEPARTED', ‘RESERVOIR DOGS,' ‘THE WOLF OF WALL STREET.'

Christopher Columbus' diary of his first voyage. The original diary was lost, but Bartolomé de Las Casas claimed that his account contained lengthy quotes he had transcribed directly from Columbus. The account describes the determination of the “Admiral” to justify the trust placed in him by the Spanish monarchs as well as his first impressions of the people he met in the Caribbean. He describes the welcome he received and the gift exchanges that he mistakes for barter. The passage quoted here also includes Columbus' statement that with fifty men he could dominate the natives, although the language is less aggressively translated than in other accounts.

Juan Enrique Cadiñanos, CEO de Admirals Markets en España; y Dario García, analista de XTB, comentan lo más destacado de la apertura de las bolsas y el dato de IPC adelantado de diciembre.

Does it help to be debilitatingly fearful? Does it help to feed your kids' fear? The Daily Mail might tell us, "Screw FDR. You have several more things to fear than fear itself!" Grace discusses how "gender-affirming care" is the new COVID, insofar as you don't get to have a dissenting opinion—you must blindly trust the science.

Venedig, Mitte des 14. Jahrhunderts: Während ein Admiral aus Genua mit seiner Flotte vor der Stadt kreuzt, stirbt der Doge von Venedig. Die Stadt braucht dringend ein neues Oberhaupt. Und ein junger Lastenträger erfährt im Laufe der Geschichte, wo er eigentlich herkommt. Es liest Hugo R. Bartels. Audio online bis zum 26.12.2023

Retired US Navy SEAL four-star admiral debuts to share his top ten lessons to change your life and the world.    Source: University of Texas at Austin 2014 Commencement Address - Admiral William H. McRaven   Connect with Admiral William H. McRaven:    Books:  Make Your Bed: Little Things That Can Change Your Life...And Maybe the World (2017) The Hero Code: Lessons Learned from Lives Well Lived (2021) Hosted by Malikee Josephs (Pronounced Muh leek Jo seffs)   Follow The Show On Instagram @DepressionDetoxShow.

Fifth generation, or 5G technology, promises to bring high-speed, low-latency wireless infrastructure necessary for the smart era. But moving from the promise of 5G to a reality where 5G networks will deliver amazing and important new capabilities and services will require those networks to be secure. To talk about 5G cybersecurity challenges, Lawfare senior editor Stephanie Pell sat down with Tom Wheeler, visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution and former chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (or FCC), and Admiral (ret.) David Simpson, professor at Virginia Tech and former chief of the Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau at the FCC. They just published a new paper entitled, “5G is Smart, Now Let's Make it Secure.” They talked about the 5G cyber paradox, three specific cybersecurity challenges they outline in the paper, and recommendations they make for addressing these cybersecurity challenges going forward.Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

There's an extreme telepathic mind swap. Dal and Janeway switcheroo, and Dal wonders how the heck does she drink this coffee stuff? The Dauntless and The Protostar get so close, their warp bubbles merge, and Murf goes out for a stretch. #StarTrek #StarTrekProdigy #Protostar #Murf #Janeway #Dal #RokTahk #JankomPog #Zero #Science #Holodeck -Brought to you by Section 31- Episode 154 00:30 Switcheroo! 00:40 Why am I black? 01:04 It worked? 01:41 Great Legs! 02:10 Is That Spock? 02:30 Back again! 02:45 Better Ass 03:00 Swap Party 03:19 Swingers Party? 04:04 Too Busy 04:20 NO KIDS! 04:30 Tribble Drop In 04:55 TGIF 05:49 Thanks Section 31 and our Patreons! https://patreon.com/starfleetunderground 07:00 So Many Settings! 09:00 Celebrate 30th Anniversary Star Trek: Deep Space Nine! New Comic Book is coming out called “The Dog of War” https://www.startrek.com/news/star-trek-deep-space-nine-dog-of-war-comic 10:30 March 21, 2023 Strange New Blu Ray? https://trekmovie.com/2022/12/14/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-season-1-coming-to-blu-ray-dvd-and-steelbook-in-march/ 10:38 Anson Mount Interview https://trekmovie.com/2022/12/16/anson-mount-says-strange-new-worlds-season-2-will-explore-the-limits-of-star-treks-idealism/ 11:25 Done with the Gorn? 12:23 Open Pike Night Podcast - there's a Night in there. https://openpike.buzzsprout.com/1953060/11779125-davy-perez-interview-born-on-the-31st-of-october 13:18 Patrick Stewart on TikTok! https://trekmovie.com/2022/12/14/sir-patrick-stewart-celebrates-the-christmas-season-by-joining-tiktok/ 15:45 Cross Reference Mistletoe 17:20 It Was Aliens 18:00 https://www.dailystartreknews.com/read/breaking-the-roddenberry-foundation-has-teamed-up-with-planet-labs-to-send-a-star-trek-tribute-into-orbit 19:40 Star Trek: Prodigy S1E18 - "Mindwalk" 19:50 Act I - "The Star Trek Swap" 21:40 Where's Jodi? 23:00 What section? 23:20 Latching Warp Bubbles 23:33 Phased Tachyon Pulse 24:30 Meditative State 25:30 Drive-By Raspberry 26:00 Freaky Star Trek Fridays 28:12 Pinch Myself 28:45 Good Voice Acting! 28:57 Sus Janeway 31:00 Act II - "Let's Play A Game" 32:20 It Was The Coffee Test!!! 34:14 Janeway and Janeway 34:57 Make Something Great Out of That Mess 36:00 Murf on the Console again 36:30 Star Trek: Walking On The Hull 39:07 Act III - "The Switch" 40:30 Way to Make Friends 40:45 Elasto-Murf! 42:00 Janeway Returns...To The Brig 43:00 Ascencia and Drednok 43:10 When in Doubt...Airlock 44:24 Don't Be A Nice Guy 45:00 Someone Try To Kill You? Kill'em Right Back 46:44 Um, Admiral's On The Hull 47:30 Sister? 48:00 Play With All The Toys 52:30 Starfleet Street Party 56:15 STLV - https://tickets.creationent.com/creation-las-vegas-2023.html -Thanks so much for listening! Get some MERCH - https://starfleet-underground.creator-spring.com Patreon - https://patreon.com/starfleetunderground Email: thecollective@starfleetunderground.com Website: https://starfleetunderground.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/StarfleetUnderG Instagram: https://instagram.com/starfleetunderground Facebook: https://facebook.com/starfleetunderground YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/Qtsy16 Explicit

On this week's episode on Random Trek, Captain Ingle and I set a course for the 21st century in a strange alternate universe created by Q. As Admiral Picard attempts to prevent sabotage of the impending Europa mission, an FBI agent with an interest in extraterrestrial life apprehends the Admiral in an attempt to make sense of the strange events occurring on Earth. Join us as we go boldly! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/pageturnerstheywerenot/message

Jeff, Virgil and Mark talk with Blake Smith, President of the iconic Admiral Twin Drive-In in Tulsa, Oklahoma (location of Francis Ford Coppola's THE OUTSIDERS), and the Starlite Drive-In in Wichita, Kansas. They talk shop on matters of history, first-run theater practices, screen fires, concession lines, and more. Recorded 4/6/22 For more information about the Admiral Twin Drive-In, visit: https://www.admiraltwindrivein.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Admiral-Twin-Drive-In-114110318617063 For more information on the Starlite Drive-In, go to: https://starlitefun.com/ https://www.facebook.com/StarliteWichita/ For exclusive additional podcasts, videos, sneak peeks, and on-site discounts, visit the Mahoning Drive-In Patreon page at: https://www.patreon.com/mahoningdrivein https://www.mahoningdit.com/ https://www.facebook.com/mahoningdriveintheater/ https://www.instagram.com/mahoningdriveintheater/ https://twitter.com/mahoningdit --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/mahoningdrivein/message

The party line is buzzing with requests for Lum to join his newly formed Navy. The problem though is that everybody wants to be an Admiral. The phone call is…

This week we're exploring the fascinating and controversial topic of flat earth theory....again. This ancient belief, once relegated to the fringes of society, has seen a resurgence in recent years thanks to the power of the internet and social media. On this episode, we'll take a deep dive into the history of the flat earth movement and examine the arguments made by its supporters.  We'll explore the evidence (or lack thereof) supporting the idea that the earth is not a globe, but rather a flat, disc-shaped plane. Whether you're a believer or a skeptic, you won't want to miss this revisit. Join us as we challenge our assumptions about the world around us and explore the flat earth phenomenon. Did we change our minds? *Intro sound clip features comedian Dan Cummins If you have any questions or topics you'd like to see the society cover, please reach out at Contact@hushhushsociety.com   You can find all our audio, blogs and drop sweet ratings at www.hushhushsociety.com Find our Video Content on our Rokfin Leave us a review on Apple, our website, Podchaser or GoodPods You can grab Hush Hush merch and help support the show on Patreon Link up with the society on social media:   Facebook   Instagram   Twitter    Join our Discord and chat with us   TRANSCRIPT Flat Earth 2   [00:01:00]  Dave: Greetings, Hushlings. Welcome back to the Hush Hush Society Conspiracy Hour. Mike: Where we journey into the world of conspiratorial mysteries and dark truths Dave: I'm Declassified Dave Mike: and I'm Mystery Mike and as though is we're joined by our fellow globetard Slick Fronk Sanders. Fronk: The Earth is probably round how you doing? Dave: it's going. Are things going around today? Mike: Quick question flat Earthers. How do boomerangs work on your flat plane? Fronk: Boomerangs are flat.  Dave: that got him. If you didn't notice today, we returned to the great debate in this episode. Is the Earth round? Is the Earth flat? Fronk: Hushling's, uh, in case you weren't [00:02:00] aware, we visited this topic in season three and completely shat all over the flat plane and we believe we should revisit this mother of all modern conspiracies, seeing as though it's such a big part of conspiracy culture. Dave: it's getting even bigger, even though you guys probably most definitely are gonna take a second dumping in this one. Mike: not as bad as the first. Dave: Not  Fronk: Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Mike: we've discussed how there are different phases to being a flat earther. I'm guess I'm still in stage zero and we were in stage one in May of 2021. let's go up around to stage two But before we search for the horizon and fall off the flat plane and search for God in the sky under the spotlight sun, you can always find us on our social medias, Facebook, [00:03:00] Instagram, and Twitter Dave: You can also find everything hush hush society on our website, www.hushhushsociety.com. From episodes to links to merchandise, and the ability to drop a review or leave us a voicemail. We hope we get some after this episode. Mike: Hmm. Please do. Dave: Yeah. Fronk: And we keep mentioning that we are now also a video podcast. You can not only. To us, but you can watch us, you can see our faces. You can get that expressional action that you might not get from just an audio recording. And to find those episodes, you just gotta go to Rock Fin. It's, it's very simple. Rock fin.com. There's even an app. And in the search bar you just put in Hush Hush Society. You'll find us nice and easy. And there you can find all of our videos. you hit the notification button. You get notifications when our videos come out. Check it out. Mike: And just one last thing before we move on to the flat plane, we just [00:04:00] want to give a quick shout out to our newest patron, Gabrielle May. Thank you so much. We appreciate you. Fronk: Just in case you're new to this, we're gonna do a quick little recap for you on what Flat Earth theory is, and essentially, in a nutshell, the earth is flat rather than round. Pretty self explanatory, although it's made its appearance throughout history. The theory gained popularity around 2009 and has continued to grow ever since. Dave: It is regarded as one of the most controversial conspiracy theories in existence. Why claim that our earth is flat and not a globe easy? That's because it looks flat and feels flat and is surrounded by 200 feet of ice blocking us from traversing across an infinite plane or falling off the edge. Sounds correct, right? Fronk: I mean, yeah, that's what I've been made to believe. That's that's what it seems like Mike: Yeah. Riding on the back of a turtle through the cosmos, but the cosmos [00:05:00] doesn't exist, so where's the turtle going? Anyways,  according to believers, NASA and the ruling elite protect the ice walls from people attempting to climb over and fall from the disc. Can't make it up. They also believe that earth's gravity is an illusion, and that objects are driven up by a mysterious force called dark energy, rather than spinning and being stuck to a surface, Fronk: But on the other hand, there are countless photographs, videos, and images from astronauts and the International Space Station that kind of seem like evidence to show that the Earth is round. But these are not considered real evidence and are allegedly faked by the government or the ruling elites Dave: Now before we move on, flat, earthers already pissed off at our description in the beginning, Fronk: probably. Dave: we wanted to pull you in, but we'll make it as [00:06:00] fair as possible with some of the talking points that we're going to go over.  Now, Hushlings, there is the flat Earth Society as well as thousands of others from around the globe in groups. In addition to independent researchers, even though there is evidence to contradict some of these arguments, they are dismissed as fabrications of around earth conspiracy, along with stars, planets, galaxies, space, and gravity, all being a part of the facade of where we live. Mike: That is my biggest thing when it comes down to a debate between a flat earth and someone who believes that we live on a globe, is that it always results. In a flat earth are saying, well, that's what you've been told. You've been lied to. You're believing a lie that's being told to you, which is the old faithful of all conspiracy theorists, is that you're being lied to. That's all well and good, but at what point do you turn around and say, the [00:07:00] science is being lied to you. Nasa, we know lies to us. We know they fabricate images. We know what they do. But again, that's more of an argument that NASA is filled with bunch of liars. But at what point do you look at it maybe there is evidence that it's a globe or maybe there is evidence that it's a flat plane. There has to be a certain cutoff point where you stop saying, well, you're being lied to. That's what they want you to believe. That's what they're fabricating the science. They're fabricating this. They're fabricating that. How, and this has always been my issue, how do you talk to a flat earth and say, what piece of evidence would it take for you to say that it's a globe Dave: Pictures. Mike: pictures? , but then you show them a picture of this is what our earth looks like. It's a globe. Or you show them video or you show them anything. Well, that's been fabricated. It's always like this deniability to go against what they believe in. Like you, you have to deny [00:08:00] it. You have to deny it because it shakes the entire foundation of what their belief system is, especially when it comes to a flat earth. But then they always revert back to, that's what the Bible says. That's what the Bible says. I'm sorry, we, we've been over the Bible many times. We all know that it's been changed a thousand times and it's a book.  Fronk: not only that, but that's what they're making the Bible say. That's what certain people are interpreting the bible to say, and you can make the Bible say a lot of different things depending on how you decide to interpret it as a person. And if you're interpreting it as, they're telling me about the flat earth and so be it, Dave: This episode is gonna focus a little bit more heavily on some of the things that Mike and Fronk just mentioned, talking about NASA and the why would they lie and why would they fake and indoctrinated us as kids to believe that it's a ball. , and these are major [00:09:00] talking points that I've learned over the last year and a half since we've done this, other than just the physical evidence. We have the physical evidence if you're going to go by the, mainstream. we'll go through a bunch of stuff. I think we'll talk about religion too. So Mike, save those nails, buddy. Mike: We'll look into some of what we just listed and more throughout this episode, and it strongly suggested you listen to our first crack at this crust to understand where some of the historical beliefs come from and a lot of other things about this theory, mainly the science. But let's give this another oscillation, shall we? We're gonna literally hit some of the proposed theories and then firmly spit some facts. be prepared to, uh, confirm or deny your belief. Fronk: Before we completely dive into the flat plane, we're gonna talk about the planet as we've been taught in a traditional sense. Our Native [00:10:00] Earth is a terrestrial rocky planet, correct? Yes or no? I mean, whether it's flat around truth,  It has a dynamic and active surface with mountains, valley, canyons, you name it. All the different geographical structures and a variety of other features. It has water covering 70% of its surface, as well as harboring thousands of life forms, and it has a unique orbiting satellite arm. Dave: it has a circumference. Remember this number Hushlings 24,901 miles. And it shares our solar system with eight, sorry, Pluto, eight other planets and is rotating at around thousand miles an hour while orbiting our home star. Now this is where flat Earthers start to deny our existence on a spinning ball. we're orbiting around our sun at 67,000 miles an hour, all while zipping around the center of the Milky Way, roughly at [00:11:00] around 490,000 miles an hour. And the biggest claim, you can't feel it.   Mike: Well, that's just what we're taught in school. Unfortunately, most of us didn't escape the clutches of the Rockefeller Education System. There's that name again. Yep. He created the General Education Board in 1902 at the cost of 129 million. It's a lot of money back in 1902. It's a lot of money today and provided major funding for schools across the nation and was very influential in shaping the school system. Also, he's quoted as saying, I don't want a nation of thinkers. I want a nation of workers. Sounds like my pause. Fronk: And that speaks some deep truth because school does indoctrinate the nation into the trap of society. Once you hit like 10th grade, you're already filling out college applications, colleges that you're gonna be in debt to for the rest of your life, that you're gonna have to work for the majority of [00:12:00] your life to pay off for that job that you'll be working for the rest of your life. And it's this endless cycle. So that's definitely perpetuated by some global elitist. I get that to an extent, maybe the indoctrination portion of it. Dave: Well, from the beginning. Which classroom have you ever been in that didn't have a globe?    Fronk: In 1928, John D Rockefeller Jr. Financed an expedition to the South Pole as a British secret service. Agent Rockefeller knew perfectly that no South Pole existed, but people were curious about the true shape of the world. From 1956 onward, Antarctica was completely controlled by the Pentagon. Hence the Antarctic Treaty. And anybody visiting this chunk of land without permission was shot on site. Admiral by who we've talked about extensively, died mysteriously in 1957 and perhaps had a timely demise before he could tell the truth about what the South Pole. Mike: When it comes to the[00:13:00] Antarctic treaty and being shot on sight, who is shooting these people on sight? Fronk: Snow snipers. Those drones from Star Wars that landed on Hoth Mike: , that's a lot of land to patrol in order to watch for people.  Dave: remember. Antarctica is 5.2 million square miles as well. Mike: That's what doesn't make sense to me. You're gonna be shot on sight and that's another part of the Antarctic treaty that I also don't understand. Who is physically stopping you from going there? The only thing that's physically stopping you from going to Antarctica is it costs a lot of money. To either charter a boat that would go there. most people don't go there. Most charter boats don't go there. You could do a flyover, but that's only partial. Who is physically stopping you besides your bank account? Dave: I did see a video recently of some guys on a boat that were stopped. I think they were stopped by the New Zealand Navy [00:14:00] or the Australian Navy, and they were turning him around and you can see like. Ice in the distance or something like that. And I don't know if there was just like an iceberg that was out there that they were near, but the allegations on TikTok was got turned around at the bottom of the world, cause I believe it's, there's some degree, and I'm gonna sound uneducated saying this, but I don't know the degree, I think, but there's some degree at the bottom of the world. That you can't go. But the Antarctic treaty, it contradicts itself because the Antarctic treaty was supposed to be a demilitarized zone. No military stuff. No commercial, nothing. It was supposed to be strictly for research. Fronk: So why is the Navy there? Of who? New Zealand? Dave: It was either New Zealand or Australia Fronk: So what is the New Zealand or Australian Navy doing there? Dave: Well, they're close to Antarctica Fronk: Yeah, but isn't a non-military zone. Dave: But there's only military scientists maybe not all military scientists. You got like, Noah [00:15:00] scientists and stuff, and I'm sure NASA is down there, the Nazis, they're all down there. You know, you  got everybody. Antarctica looks like a continent to me, and there's a lot of pictures of it. And are they fake? I am. I'm not on the plane, so I don't know. . Why would it matter and why would they lie? The largest argument of why these elites would lie to us is most likely there's more land, more resources, maybe even unlimited resource. And lands beyond the ice shelf or walls, as well as the suppression of how powerful of beings we are, which can kind of be a different argument that has nothing to do with flat earth as well. thoughts on that? Fronk: I could get behind both of those points to an extent in the shoes of a flat Earth, for example. Yes. If you told me that there was unlimited resources, we're talking oil, we're talking the purest water in the world. We're talking minerals that are used to power the world's [00:16:00] electronics, whatever, energy generating methods that we might have unlimited supply of that which would completely destroy not only the US dollar, but the world economy, which is what the alleged elites thrive off of. And if it's not money that they thrive off of it is leaching our fucking energy. And we've talked about that a lot. And if we were to unlock some sort of crazy. Secret about ourselves or humanity as a whole. That might be incredibly enlightening to a lot of people or disturbing. I could see it going either way, but if, if a bunch of people woke up and they were incredibly enlightened, that could be bad for the reptilian negative energy blood suckers. Dave: I don't think it would go well for anybody. I think we always do ask this question a lot when we talk about this as is, would it change our everyday lives? And we usually say no, but it would, because we [00:17:00] probably have a massive economic shutdown. religions would collapse. There'd probably be some type of total anarchy that would happen and then we'd have our own epiphanies of being like, not really upset that I was wrong, but shit I was lied to as well, part of the Doy group. And that would be a shitty day. would it end everything for me? No, it would change everything for sure. But I think the unlimited resources part, I could see somebody hiding that, , we did talk about Admiral Byrd and Admiral Byrd went through, supposedly into the hollow earth, could he have misinterpreted and gone through a crack and found more land. Who knows? In the writing The Iron Republic, written by EW Barrington and published also in 1902, another one of that year with the education system. It was published in Florida Magazine, and it said that an explorer went through a crack in the ice walls and found an advanced civilization after being lost for over a month at sea. So that [00:18:00] means he went through the ice walls and there was more ocean,  Mike: Have there ever been any, any pictures or video of the ice wall or beyond it? Fronk: Uh, people take pictures of. Ice shelves and try to say that they're the ice walls, but at the same time, those could very well just be ice shelves or very large icebergs Mike: Makes sense. Makes sense.  Dave: I wanna see a flight going around the whole whatever, 76,000 miles it's supposed to actually be. Just banking around the whole rim. But you can't go there because the military will shoot you down in a de militarized. Mike: I still think that there's plenty of ways to get there. And we talked, who do we talk with? That had went to Antarctica? Was it Mark Fronk: on a cruise with like their father. Yeah. Mark O'Connell. Yeah. Dave: Yep. Mike: O'Connell said that , he went to Antarctica with his family. Dave: San Diego Padre's pitcher's there right now.  Fronk: Yeah, but he, he also mentioned that it was like the only [00:19:00] part of Antarctica that they'll let a civilian on and it's like this tiny little peninsula and they've got the little, novelty pole.  Like you could go up and touch it and take a picture with it. Yeah. And they got little stuff, penguins and shit. Dave: could it just be a simple explanation why we don't bring people there? One, you'll die  Fronk: , yes, it's very extreme terrain, there's tons of extreme terrain that we're allowed to go to that you would probably die in if you weren't very well equipped. Mike: Yeah, it makes sense that the only reason that they would be stopping people from going there, besides the massive, endless amounts of resources that they're hoarding from us, would be that they just don't want people going out there and fucking dying.  This brings up another allegation that even the word extraterrestrial means extra terra or more land. Trying to hold some weight to the notion this has been taught to us. We see in the film The Next Level by David Weiss. [00:20:00] He meets with an older woman named Ruth. She's 102, God bless her, from Connecticut, who was in tears claiming that she was taught flat Earth in school, in Hamden, Connecticut, and now feels vindicated and better because of his truths. Dave: she was like, lost it. Mike: like real, real emotional about it. Dave: Yeah. Really emotional about it Mike: Okay. We just mentioned the Rockefeller education system and him saying that he doesn't want a nation of thinkers. He wants a nation of workers. , in the 1920s, if she was taught that the earth was flat, She would've been learning from that education system. Dave: True. Yeah, but I don't think that there's actually, I've looked and looked and looked and couldn't find any definitive evidence that was saying that they actually taught that in schools. Because even in 2022 curriculums across the country are not the same, even across the [00:21:00] same states, depending on the size of your state, they're not the same, especially when you get to advanced levels like college professors are teaching what they want within that curriculum, How in 1920 were they all taught the same thing when there was still tons and tons and tons, tons of schools. , that's the thing that gets me,  she's 102. Could she have just been like, yeah, I saw that once and she saw it on a cartoon in the seventies while she was in her sixties,  Fronk: nonetheless, I do find it difficult to wrap my head around because it was David Weiss who did that interview or whatever, and he brings up a lot of stuff about flat Earth. I listen to a bunch of his talks and shows that he went on to and whatnot, and he brings up all of these points and , he tells people to just, look into it. You gotta look into it yourself. You gotta do your research. , you go to do this research and obviously if you're looking into stuff like this, you're not going to [00:22:00] Google. You're not using Bing, like the go to search engine for anything that you can't find is duck, duck go. And he's been saying that Duck, duck go is starting to censor things of this nature. So, like Dave, I went looking for what the global education was like in the 1910s, the 1920s, and. Again, like you said, no definitive proof. Is it a censorship thing or is it the fact that it was just not taught as flat in the 1920s? Dave: There's also allegations that say that, it was the thirties and even in the sixties through certain education systems. , I almost bought David Weiss's app now. David had contacted us and let us know how he thought about us. I think in the next level, , it almost looks like somebody's trying to sell something and maybe this woman really did feel vindicated Ruth if she's still alive or not. but I don't know, check out the next level. It's an interesting take on flat earth and [00:23:00] there's a bunch of other proponents that I'd never even heard of that have some interesting talking points. Mike: my beef when it comes to David is he did reach out to us. He reached out to us a couple times, especially after our flat Earth episode. And essentially just berated us through email it's the usual argument that I, especially for some odd reason am on the receiving end of arguments with flat earthers is just yelling and anger and just being pissed off consistently. and he was not too happy, as Dave said with how we covered it in our talking points. He said, oh, it's the same talking points. Well, it's the same talking points with flat Earthers too. you talk about the Bible, you talk about nasa, you talk about, it's like, it's, it's the same talking points because we're talking about the same fucking topic.  Of course we're gonna have our sides to it and of, and flat earthers are gonna have their sides to it. It's just the way that it is. That's how you have constructive. [00:24:00] Conversations that go back and forth with conflicting beliefs. Dave: I feel like it's a lot of frustration that , you're just not getting it. Fronk: I feel like he rails Coke and like smashes Globes in his free time, like buys globes from Goodwill and just fucking destroys them in the parking lot and then drives home  Dave: beats them with Louisville slugs. Just smack. Smack.  Mike: I can't wait for our next email correspondence after this one. Fronk: dude. It's not gonna be an email. It's gonna be a voice message and he is gonna be all fucking jacked up out of his mind.    Dave: Before we move on to like the major talking points we gotta talk about what Mike mentioned earlier where a lot of the stuff that is talked about goes back to biblical cosmology and creationism.  Mike: Yeah. And that's always been my biggest talking point with discussions with flat Earthers is explain it to me I will give you my counterpoints and you'll give me your points and we can go [00:25:00] back and forth, but complete your, persuasion of trying to make me see that it's a flat plane. Complete your argument without using the Bible. Every single fucking time. Every single time it ends in, well, it says this in the Bible and it says this, it always ends up being that let's put it this way. I've never met a flat earth that wasn't also at the same time a Bible thumper. Dave: I've met two types. I feel like there are conflicting points to, flat earthers even they step on each other's toes a little bit. They might not, not get along, but I think there are some folks that definitely don't believe in the biblical cosmology and it's just a physical thing. But every time you go back to, if it's a physical thing, that's a structure that's not a planet. It brings me to the question, even a non-religious person. It brings me to the question, well then we're talking about who created it, [00:26:00] not just the science of planets and, gas and particles coming together for, from a accretion. We're talking a whole different thing. Now. We're talking about, well, if it's a structure , and this is not what we think it is and this is not what I think it is, then it had to have been manufactured structure. We build structures. using that type of verbiage, brings even me to being like, , now we're in the religious realm or the faith realm. Fronk: You want me to blow your mind right now? you know what's easier than creating a whole universe writing fucking lines of code. Bam, bam.  Mike: Yeah, there it is. There it is. We should just bring all arguments of flat earth back to simulation theory. Fronk: That's where I, that, yeah. Prove to me that it's even physical and then maybe I'll consider whether, the shape is round or flat. Dave: Let's talk about curves. Fronk: Right. All right. Let's talk about the voluminous crevices and curves that our mother Earth provides. Right. The idea of a flat [00:27:00] earth stems from a number of viewpoints, and the most fundamental is to rely on one's own sense, to determine the true nature of one's surroundings. The world appears flat. Clouds, bottoms look like they're flat. Water looks like it's flat, and the sun moves. The stars are always the same positioned exactly how they always were, and all of these sensory cues indicate that we do, in fact, live on a flat. Dave: I'm not an astrophysicist and I'm not a  Fronk: Are you  sure?  Dave: Maybe, maybe, maybe in my other existence, the 500 of 'em. I'm a failed astrophysicist, but I do have a telescope and I've had it for quite some time and I'm pretty good with it. And it's Fronk: the fuck? Dave: eh, the stars not moving. I know that there's a difference between absolute, uh, motion. A difference between [00:28:00] relative motion, and I'm pretty sure that the way that the stars move, but their whole argument is, is that since everything's spinning at astronomical speeds every night, we would see different stars because we're just whipping around and seeing different things. So why are the stars the same? And it does get you thinking, well, why are the stars the same? Well, I'm not a professional astronomer, so I can't really explain that. But I would say it has something to do with relative motion where everything's moving in conjunction instead of just this vortex of insane speeds..  Fronk: In my peanut globetard brain, I'm more so thinking the speed of light and how long it actually takes for the light from the stars that we're seeing to travel here. I mean, yeah, we've been seeing the same stars for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, but at what point were those stars emitting that light? How long have those stars been dead for, and how long is it gonna take for us to see new stars again? [00:29:00] I can't answer any of those questions for you, but I'm pretty sure that's. Dave: Valid point. Mike: Also in the grand scheme of time, humanity has been around a fucking blink in universal time. again to Fronk's point here, we're seeing the same stars because we're living 80 years and that's it. As opposed to the billions and billions and billions of years that the universe has existed and that that light has traveled and those stars have either been born, exploded, died, and disappeared. , we're seeing nothing, nothing. Dave: Well, that goes back to you being an insignificant being and that being suppressed. There's that argument. We'll have that later. We'll fight about it. Mike: there, there won't be an argument. We are insignificant beings.  Even if you took it back to a creationist argument, we are fucking insignificant. We are insignificant, we're [00:30:00] nothing. If we were something we would still commune with Gods, we would still commune with universal spirits. We would be. Something more than fucking meat sacks traveling through the world going, oh, I wonder what job I'm gonna have next, that I'm gonna work fucking 40 hours a week at and pull in a menial salary and take care of my 5.2 fucking kids, and then eventually retire at the ripe old age of 70 years old. And that's my life. How special am I Dave: Well, that's the system that you're locked in. Mike: system or not? Even if I had no job, even if I was just wandering, enjoying my life, going to these wonderful, exotic places, just doing everything that I wanted to do. At the end of it all 70 to 80 years, that's what I get. That's fucking it. in those 70 to 80 years, when am I seeing God? When am I [00:31:00] seeing a hint of any extraterrestrial, any, any extra dimensional, any religious, fucking spiritual guide? Anything. Anything.  when I'm not, fucked up on drugs, Dave: psychedelics. Fronk: God tier moment. Mike goes, have you ever given an ant food? Throw that bitch in there.  Dave: A lot of people see that as negative, and I don't really see it as negative that we're that insignificant. It's kind of the same argument that I make about the flight paths, which we'll quickly touch on is, well, the, the plane has to keep dipping down to keep going. Have you seen how small a plane is to how big the earth is? Mike: That's one thing that they don't understand is fucking perspective. You don't understand  perspective.  Dave: I'm glad you brought that up because what Frankie said a couple minutes ago about viewpoints perspective, seeing, if the clouds appear flat, water is flat, that's called using an empirical approach or an approach that relies on information [00:32:00] on your senses.  What's your feeble little human garbage eyes can see? And if you can't see the curve, then it doesn't exist. They use mathematics. I am. Stupid with math. The math is if the earth is round, there should be a degree of curvature, eight inches per mile squared. one mile would be eight inches, two miles, 32 inches, three miles, 72 inches, four miles, 128, and so on.  128 inches is about 10 feet of curvature. So that would be, four miles away now? 10 feet. A considerable amount when you're looking at a boat on. Water the water line to the top, say, let's say an aircraft carrier is probably 60 to 90 feet. You'd have to be at least around 20 miles to not just see the flight deck of that ship going over the horizon.  Then you got the whole, you got the bridge, you got everything else. You got all the radar you're probably looking at 120 feet at least to the top of, all of the structures on that ship. How many miles is that? . That's the thing. Another thing with the insignificance is [00:33:00] that we're tiny as fuck. Like how can we see anything? If you're five foot 10 and you're looking at something how far are you actually gonna see Mike: but what about the Zoom, Dave? What about the Zoom? Some of those cameras, they can zoom way, way, way, way in. They take those cameras and they zoom, zoom, zoom, and they go, well, that city is 150 miles away. There's no way that I should see it because of this curvature. And this camera is picking it up perfectly. So how do they work? Dave: I think they use the Chicago skyline for example. And I didn't do the experiment and look on Google Maps , and see the different distances, but you gotta remember the Sears Tower, whatever the fuck it's called now, it's like well over a thousand feet tall. and they're like, well, you can see the whole thing you. In those pictures that are shown as examples, you cannot see the entire Sears Tower. There is hundreds of feet of displacement in Chicago. Like New York has a [00:34:00] very tall fucking skyline. But you could still see those buildings and they're there, and on top of it, you're getting atmospheric disturbance. You're getting a layer of almost a mirage layer.  Mike: Dave was just going over the math of the entire situation, it's 67 feet per 10 miles. Now, before we move on, we have to mention that there are ball earthers or globes or globe tards that do argue that this equation is misused by flat earthers. And is the equation of calculating a parabola, not a full sphere. Dave: The guy who said that this is Misused was something that was found on the Michael Stata podcast and apparently himself and another guy that were on there, one was like an F 18 pilot, and then he's got certain hundreds and hundreds amount of hours as being a pilot. he had mentioned that the equation was misused and used the parabola as an example, that you're talking [00:35:00] about something like this instead of something that's a full circle even if you're talking about it on the curve, , it's still a parabola, even on that surface. Even though the equations are right and the math is right to calculate the curvature of the earth with its circumference that's known.  Might not be accurate. And uh, who did that? Aristophenes did that. And I know Flat Earthers is gonna say that guy didn't even fucking exist. which maybe he did, maybe he didn't. That was 2000 years ago. Who knows? Fronk: just to be fair to the flat earthers, right? We can't nitpick what false history we believe and don't, we do tend to say that history could have been falsified many times. If history has been erased at any point in time there is the possibility that this dude was made. Mike: using this model, a person standing on a spherical surface with eyes five feet, 11 inches above the ground, can [00:36:00] hypothetically see the ground up to about three miles away, but a person at the top of the Eiffel Tower at 896 feet can see the ground up to 36.6 miles away. Dave: Well, they're higher in altitude, Mike: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.  Dave: but the argument is that you can't see using the calculation, you wouldn't be able to see because it's dipping. I think the argument is wrong, and I'm not a mathematician and I'm not good at math, but from what my I see is that almost like some of these people are seeing it smaller than what it is. I don't think they're really getting how big this thing is and how small we are. So even at a 900 feet, Yes, you can see almost 10 times as much in distance, but you're also almost a thousand feet in the air,  Mike: Again,  perspective.   Fronk: If the degree of the [00:37:00] curvature is found to be the same everywhere on earth's surface, and the surface is in fact large enough, the constant curvature demonstrates that the earth is a. Now what about water? James Underdown, executive Director for the Center for Inquiry, Los Angeles worked with the Independent Investigations Group, a nonprofit dedicated to investigating exceptional claims using scientific methods. A boat based target with horizontal stripes was used in one of these tests. Dave: He's quoted as saying we sent a boat out on the water, and the farther it goes, the more the stripes disappear. That was supposed to demonstrate the curvature of the planet, but most flat earthers disagreed generating considerable debate. The biggest reason for these arguments with flat earth, obviously it comes from flat Earth, Dave(David Weiss), and it's all about perspective, as we said. The ground would never obscure distant objects on a flat earth. It should be possible to see all the way to the edge of the [00:38:00] world, right? That is the question that we would be asking. The answer we get is the atmosphere is opaque. Now, using the vernacular atmosphere is almost a conundrum in itself, and you ask, well, why did you use that? Well, we don't have another word for it.  Mike: Why not just make up a word like you fucking make up your own beliefs?  Just fucking do it. Just do it. . Make up a new word. It's very easy. It's done every day.   [00:39:00] Ad break [00:40:00]    Mike: Let's move on to another major fight in this, the position of the sun, sunrise and sunset. In case you were wondering, the sun is always above the Earth's surface in both models, Yet in the flat model, it travels in circles around the Earth's north pole, which is also, its. The seasons are caused by the expansion [00:41:00] and contraction of these circles. What about latitude?  Dave: What about latitude? I mean,  that would  Mike: about latitude  Dave: right? Mike: Hmm. Dave: The largest circumference of latitude on this planet would be the equator. Correct?  Mike: Yep. Dave: And then you have the tropic cancer and the tropic of Capricorn. The midpoints. I don't know that seems pretty, easy to explain. Maybe I'm just stupid. Could  be,  Mike: Globetard Dave: yeah. Fronk: Fucking idiot. Do some research Mike: Look into it. Fronk: where, show me where, show me where I could read about this that isn't on the app.  Mike: In the Bible, Fronk: Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Here we go with the fucking Bible again. Mike: and books from the  17 hundreds  Fronk: They considered the sun to be much closer than 93 million miles and possibly even as far as 3000 miles or as close as 300 miles and moves in a circle or a helix pattern because the earth is supposedly accelerating upward, obviously toward the sun [00:42:00] at 9.8 meters per second because they don't believe in gravity, and that explains gravity away. with that being said, the sun must also be accelerating in the same direction as this hypothetical earth vortex. Make sense? You guys got that? Dave: instead of us spinning with things spinning around us and us spinning around something else and then that spinning around something else, which is relative there's a really big graphic that's always shown on every documentary, every video, and it's like the sun being shot out of a. With everything else just like around it, it looks like a DNA strand, most globe tards, know that that's not how motion works with celestial bodies. that one got me and always gets me, is every time that's shown. I'm like, oh God.  Fronk: other astronomical bodies moving in such a pattern? We have like really high powered telescopes Mike: Because space is not real.  Fronk: [00:43:00] Oh, shit. I forgot. I'm, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You got me.  Okay. All right. All right. Right. All right. Dave: no space. No space. We have to remember that throughout this whole episode, there's no space. Fronk: Yes. Yes. Mike: if you take space out of the equation, introduce God in the Bible, and just ignore all known fucking science for the past like 300 years, you can be a flat earther. Fronk: wait is it no space or it's just the sun and the moon and the earth, or , is it None of that and it's just plain earth with our spinning moon, sun clock sort of thing happening, Which one is it? Do flat earthers believe either the barrel bore theory or the plate theory? Dave: Everything's contained in a system. Fronk: It's one in the same Dave: and everything above us is, I guess, the abyss, because there's a lot of arguments that, like with this Artemis program, whether it's fake or not, we'll talk about NASA in a little bit, but whether it's fake or not, Rockets [00:44:00] don't work in a vacuum apparently. but they're actually using, their own inertia to move in a vacuum. But I guess things don't work that way according to some. That brings us to sunrise and sunset. I don't want to get too far into this cuz this can take hours and hours and hours to argue about, let's talk about sunrise and sunset real quick.  Fronk: Unlike a bunch of these other points, the day and night cycles are actually kind of easily explained on a flat plane. The sun theoretically would move in circles above the North Pole. Or around the North Pole, and when it's over your head, it's day, and when it's not, it's nighttime. The light of the sun is then confined to a limited area on the earth, right? Because it's right above you. This claim never held any weight for me in particular because it can be debunked with science.  On top of this, all of the planets and stars aren't actually what they appear to be like [00:45:00] big rock balls in space or giant balls of gas, but they're actually luminaries. Yet. We also hear a lot of people say, well, we don't know what they. Dave: Stars and planets are one of the biggest things that cannot be explained yet. We can explain them with telescopes. We've been talking a lot about movement. We have to talk about heliocentric model, which is the one that we supposedly live in and not the geocentric model, which is the one that flat earthers live in. When we are confronted with the question of how the earth is able to orbit the sun, and it's not a sphere it's pretty simple. The earth actually doesn't orbit the sun, as we've been saying. This is so, because instead of the sun being the center of our solar system, our planet is actually the center of our solar system or controlled environment. Mike: In reality, we have Helio Centrism, also known as the Heliocentric Model. It's the astronomical model in which the earth and planets revolve around the sun at the center historically, [00:46:00] Helio Centrism was opposed to geo centrism, which placed the earth at the center. now we've hit the firmament. Fronk: In the cosmology of the flat earth. The disc shaped planet is covered by a dome whose edges stopped just beyond the roughly 145 foot high ice wall of Antarctica. And these stars are fixed on this dome while the sun and moon, which are only about 31 miles in diameter, revolve about a 3,100 miles above the earth. Dave: Now, as we said before in biblical cosmology, the firmament is a vast, solid dome or semi solid dome created by God during his creation in the first six days To divide the primal sea into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear, which surrounds the earth or frozen water, I've heard this a lot with the biblical cosmology stuff, is that it's explained during day one, day two, day three, and they even say in the Bible, God created the firmament. I [00:47:00] believe it's on ver bran's headstone, as we've mentioned previously. I think it's a lot of wordplay and interpretation,  Mike: We also mentioned back in Hollow Moon, if you've listened to that episode about the Zulu tribe, where the firmament or atmosphere rained down to earth.  Our flat earthers saying that the sky is liquid possibly. Clearly, we know that the Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 0.9% argon and 0.1% of other gases. Dave: Now, quickly, recently, I've heard a lot of arguments in quite a few different shows and videos not just one proponent, but multiple proponents on this theory. And a lot of 'em will say, well, the atmosphere itself is just a different version of water as it is up in space, a whole different version of water. Because they use the example of if you go to the deep oceans or certain lakes, there's different [00:48:00] salinities of water. You'll have heavier water on the bottom, different pockets of water. the atmosphere works the same way and they say, because it has the same elements in it. Now, if our atmosphere is made up of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, yes, there's hydrogen in that, because if we need water, we need H two O, which does happen in the atmosphere, Fronk: shit. That's why they sent U-boats to space it's water. Dave: oh. Fronk: Oh, Dave: That's it.  You got me.  Mike: done. We're done.    Final thoughts, boys? Fronk: Thank you Hushlings. Dave: Yeah, that's it. Mike: Okay, so we're talking about the firmament currently. Now I just want everyone to know the actual definition of a firmament. So the firmament is the vault or arch of the sky. The firmament isn't necessarily something that is physical. It is something that is viewed. the [00:49:00] arch from one horizon to the other is the sky. That is the firmament. So when everybody's saying, oh, firmament, they're talking about the firmament, they're talking about something that's physically there. No, that's a viewpoint. The firmament refers to horizon. To horizon. The arch of the sky as you see it from one end of your viewpoint to the other Dave: Makes sense. There's a lot of that too, where it said that you're, uh, you have a personal viewing bubble and I think that's misinterpreted as what you're actually, what you can see you go up a 1500 foot mountain, you look around, you can see 360 degrees.  Mike: that's your firmament. Dave: that's your firmament. Fronk: One bar from Suicide Boy's last album. One of them goes Dome. So good. I think she think the earth is flat mouth like the fucking firmament. She got my eyes rolling back. There you go.  Mike: it says it all. Fronk: [00:50:00] It says it all, it says it all your, your mouth has a firmament. Mike: Show me what that firmament do. Fronk: land ho. We have hit the ice walls and the absence of the poles along the edge of our local area exists a massive 150 foot ice wall. This ice wall is on the coast of Antarctica, and The wall is absolutely gargantuan, made up of solid water, ice that surrounds our world and holds our world's oceans in.   And the South Pole does not exist, whereas the North Pole is just a giant mountain called a hyperly that you can't visit. Dave: The ice walls were discovered by Sir James Clark, who was a British naval officer and polar explorer who was amongst the first adventure to Antarctica in an attempt to determine the position of the south magnetic pole between 1768 and 1779. [00:51:00] Upon confronting the massive vertical front of ice heat famously remarked. Mike: "It was an obstruction of such character as to leave no doubt in my mind as to our future proceedings for we might as well sail through the Cliffs of Dover as to penetrate such a mass. That's what she said. It would be impossible to conceive a more solid looking mass of ice. Not the smallest appearance of any rent or fisher. Could we discover throughout the whole of its extent and the intensely bright sky beyond it, but too plainly indicated. The great distance to which it wreaths, southward " Dave: apparently it took him three years or so to do one of the journeys and he circumnavigated the globe at 77,000 miles. what if he did it three times and did [00:52:00] 77,000 miles? That's the one thing that I've always thought is that, was it one trip  Fronk: And he just didn't know Mike: But again, in the 18 hundreds, let's say that this guy goes and he encounters an ice shelf, would he not think that was an ice wall? Dave: yeah, Fronk: like, oh shit. Well this is the edge of the world I suppose. Mike: there's no going past this. My ship can't go through that. Dave: I mean, yeah, that would be logical. Mike: I think this is what we said in the first one, a lot of these arguments for a flat earth revert back to like this 18 hundreds knowledge. Let's look at this book from the 18 hundreds. Look, they mentioned the firmament. Let's look at this. they talk about ice stones and blah, blah, blah. Fronk: The future is a lie. . The truth lies in the 18 hundreds. Reject modernity, Now all of this would of course, imply that Antarctica isn't at all what they say. And we've [00:53:00] mentioned this quite a bit about the Antarctic treaty already and the Antarctic bases and all of the secrets that they hide and you can't go there. You're not allowed There. Only scientists. Yeah. That's where they're hiding the edge of the.  Dave: Let's board a plane real quick and try to go to Antarctica. I know we say we can get there by ship, but two major arguments about airplanes with the flat earth theory is one, there's no round trip flights to Antarctica. And I think we covered this briefly in our first one where we had said, Antarctica fucking sucks. And that's probably why there's no round trip flights and how a lot of the Southern Hemisphere flights cannot be explained. And I believe we went over that a lot in our first episode. And I still stick by all of what I thought about that. Now, the other question that comes up with this theory  one, can you see curve in a commercial aircraft? And two, the aircraft always has to be pitching nose down after a [00:54:00] certain amount of time. Those two arguments come up major in this theory. So I wanna get your thoughts on do planes always have to tip downward as you're flying? Cuz you've all been on flights before, Fronk: No, the plane isn't nose diving or it doesn't feel like it anyway. It doesn't seem like it's nose diving by any means. Dave: but you would feel it. You can feel drop in altitude when you're starting to descend and you feel that, whew, almost that weird weightlessness when they drop a couple hundred feet or a thousand feet pretty quickly. You can feel turbulence, obviously. , I don't think that it necessarily pitches downward after a certain distance because I think, like I said earlier, planes are tiny and the earth is huge. So I don't think there's that much effect of a plane having to move when it's floating on top of a surface of air. Fronk: If a plane pitched downwards while at like max [00:55:00] altitude, wouldn't it just start losing altitude? Wouldn't you just be going towards the ground or am I being peanut brained? Dave: If planes were going in the straight path following the Earth's curve, then they would fly off into space. That's what they say. And I think it's simpler than that. Planes fly in a certain area from 35,000 to 50,000 feet, especially commercial aircraft in a certain layer of air that's thinnest. Which is why they can move as fast as they can, but I don't believe that they're pitching because they're so tiny that everything is going to appear flat at 35,000 feet cuz the earth is so big. Mike: , they're maintaining a certain altitude from the ground, so they're not pitching anything. They're just going with the natural atmosphere of the earth. Dave: Gravity.  Mike: Yeah.    Dave: The plane thing never, never made too much sense to me, especially with the flying off into space. If you didn't compensate for curvature, it's because the Plains Center [00:56:00] mass is always perpendicular with the ground and the plane is so insignificantly small. That you will not notice those changes. You notice left and right banks on planes, , you take a direction moving towards another city, you see it, you feel the whole plane go and you're looking towards the ground. If you're ascending, you feel that inertia you're getting pulled up into the air, especially on takeoffs. Or if you're descending, you feel that, oh, the pilot goes, we're gonna be descending in a couple minutes, and all of a sudden you feel that that drop, you feel that motion left, right, and vertical but you don't feel those nudges that they say that they're doing. So I don't think that that happens. I just think the center mass of that plane is fighting against gravity to keep it up. It's a boat in the sky. Mike: even if they did, that's a continuous compensation. So it's not like they're flying a certain distance and then going, oh, well I'm eight inches above where I was before. I need to adjust. Even if that was the truth, they would just make manual [00:57:00] adjustments as they went. So over that period of time, a half inch, a quarter inch, whatever you wouldn't even be able to tell in the first place if that was the case. Fronk: And that would only be if you were flying like across the world. I'm sure it's even less so if you're flying from somewhere on the east coast down to like Minnesota or something, it's gonna be even less noticeable if you're traveling somewhere that local. Dave: You're only traveling a couple hundred miles. Fronk: Yeah, exactly. Mike: I'm sure the figures are out there, but how many flat earthers are from America versus from the rest of the world? Dave: Good question. Mike: just wondering. Dave: I don't know the answer to that. I would say there's a lot in America. America is a very conspiracy driven country at the moment, and flat earth boils down to every other conspiracy. If you believe wholeheartedly in this, you believe everything else, the lies, everything is fake. Your entire [00:58:00] existence is fake. that's from what I get Fronk: That sucks. And then, and then from that point where do they go with that? They yell at other people about it or We're gonna briefly go over the eclipse aspect of flat earth theory. Now, we all obviously know what eclipses are. That's when the moon aligns with the sun and the earth and blocks out the sun. You know the deal. and remember that the moon is 400 times smaller than the sun. It's also about 400 times closer to the earth than the sun is. Is that coincidence that this astronomical phenomenon happens? Uh, Dave: Well, I can tell you from the flat earth side that that is almost impossible.  Mike: It's pretty impossible either way. Like it's pretty coincidental. I will give it to them that when you're talking about the sun and the moon being these like perfect distances and these perfect sizes and these per that's intriguing to say the least. I will give them. Dave: Which we did go over[00:59:00] Hollow moon theory if the moon was placed here, it was placed here on purpose, but then that would give weight to some type of, maybe not creationism, but some type of external control or external observation, which I think all of us are on the fence with that.  That could be, it could not be, Mike: Again, prove to me that any of this is real Dave: So there's two types of eclipses. There's solar and lunar eclipses. Now, the way solar eclipses work is that the moon orbits in between the sun and the earth. And when that occurs, obviously the moon blocks out the sunlight. You see the corona bought a bing. You have a solar eclipse, and the moon also casts a shadow on the earth. Now, a lot of the times it's told that the moon can't cast this little tiny pin prick shadow that goes across the earth. But if the moon is relatively 200,000 miles away, why couldn't it?  Mike: According to flat Earth theorists, this astronomical phenomenon is [01:00:00] actually a glimpse of a mysterious shadow object that orbits the sun and occasionally passes in front of the moon. From our point of view, could it be planet X Nibiru? No. This object is known as the anti moon. That's new Dave: another random object in our solar system. We could go on and on about eclipses, but we have to talk about one of the biggest fallacies of our education system. Gravity, Mike: not real. Dave: not real. Now, one of the most well agreed upon theories is general relativity. And it is the theory of gravitation developed by our boy Albert Einstein, who was apparently a conman according to flat earthers. And between 1907 and 1915, he figured all this out. The theory of general relativity says that an observe gravitational effect between masses results from their warping of space time. Gravity is still just a theory to us. I guess we can all be on the fence [01:01:00] on it cause we really don't get it. And I think scientists have , admitted that they don't get it,  Mike: Well, didn't recently they say that they had to like rework that entire thought process for some discovery that they had found that the theory of relativity had to be, had to be rethought or it was not necessarily wrong entirely, but partially, I guess., it had to do with the way that a black hole was working, where for the first time they saw a star coming out of a black hole. Fronk: Yeah, I saw that it was being regurgitated. They saw light coming out of a black hole. That's right. Mike: Things are happening, man. Whether you believe in space or not, it's. Pretty wild. Fronk: Newton's love gravitation states every point Mass attracts every single other point mass by a force acting along the line intersecting both points. I don't know what that means. The force is proportional to the product of the two [01:02:00] masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Exactly. That's what I've been saying this whole Mike: Sounds about right. Thanks boys. Well, what is gravity? According to this theory, it's stated that the earth isn't pulled into a sphere because the force known as gravity exists in a greatly diminished form compared to what is commonly taught, which is that we're being pulled down to the center of the earth while. The flat Earth is constantly accelerating up at a rate of 32 feet per second squared or 9.8 meters per second squared. As we had previously mentioned, this constant acceleration causes what you think of as gravity, but it's actually caused by a universal accelerator known as dark energy or Etheric wind. Never heard of Etheric wind. That's interesting, Fronk: time's that post Taco Bell shit's my etheric wind. Dave: [01:03:00] Furthermore with this we hear words like density and buoyancy a lot in these theories arguments, which is why things fall to the ground that are heavier and explains rockets, which are thought to actually be filled with helium and have a pyrotechnic show. that proves that all things fall at 9.8 meters squared.   Dave: All right boys, we're getting towards the end of our flat earth expedition here. But we have to go back in the sky. That brings us to rockets and satellites. As we just mentioned. Proponents of flat earth theory believe that satellites totally exist, but cannot be seen from the ground and are actually held in the atmosphere by helium balloons. Hence why NASA is the largest consumer of helium and they sometimes crash into the planet, which we call them weather balloons. And I guess that would explain the weather balloon phenomenon.  Fronk: Satellites in low earth orbit are constantly fighting gravity. According to science, some are geographically fixed and keep their [01:04:00] orbit by balancing two factors, their velocity, which is the speed required to travel in a straight line and their gravitational pull to the earth. To resist the stronger gravitational pole, a satellite orbiting closer to the earth requires more velocity. And of course, we're not going to get out of this debriefing without a little bit of NASA sprinkled in that bitch. Mike: Yes, good old nasa, our friends over there, professional cgi. It's widely assumed that humans have never left the Earth's atmosphere. In fact, we've never left earth and entered space because we lack the ability to do so in the first place unless you're a Nazi and a U-boat. Most of what society has been taught about space is completely made up or greatly exaggerated. By the government and or the elites. There's also the claim that humans have never landed on the moon. I'm with that, and that the infamous moon landings witnessed by the entire world in [01:05:00] 1969 were a sham. Fronk: Okay. I'll give them that. A major claim is that any pictures from the Apollo 11 mission that show that our planet as a sphere in the distance were fabricated by the government and nasa and NASA's mission is not to hide the shape of the earth or trick people into thinking it's round or anything else of the sort. Dave: Well, that's what NASA says, right?  We obviously know that there's some type of space travel conspiracy, whether it's more advanced or it doesn't exist. Possibly Nasa's mission is to create the illusion of space travel in order to, cover for the military, and their dominance in space. One thing we forgot to mention that I thought of real quick when you guys were talking is the quick notion on gravity. There's a lot of flat earthers that will say, well, can you jump, when you jump off the earth, you a hundred, 200 pound person jumping off the earth. Do you come back [01:06:00] down? And was it easy to jump? Then why is gravity so strong? Fronk: that's the whole argument of like, why does Gravity hold our planet's, oceans On  Dave: Yeah. Yeah. If it can  hold all this water and all this mass,  why can you jump off your roof and hit the ground? Mike: Because there is a different pull depending on the mass of the object.  Dave: Mike wins a gold star Fronk: gold sticker for you. Mike: boys, let's get into our final thoughts. Everything that was on Reddit, we've been through, we've done this whole thing. I wanna know the final thoughts as we get into stage two of becoming a flat earth. are we now believing that gravity is not real? The sun is a, lamp and uh, and we live on a flat plain, surrounded by an ice wall. Dave, are you a flat earther? Dave: No. sadly, I am not a flat earther. I think it's an [01:07:00] interesting theory that opens up a lot of more conspiracies and there are some valid questions, but I think a lot of it has to do with our lack of actually being able to see things because we are restricted beings. Uh, the one thing about flat earth theory that I find really fascinating is the suppression of information, the hidden things. And I think that's the conspiratorial part that really pulls me, believing that it is a different shape or an infinite plane or a snow globe, or, flatterers is gonna get so mad at me for saying that because we don't believe it's a snow globe. It doesn't look like a pancake. They all have different theories and a lot of it goes back to religion. A lot of it goes to creationism. A lot of it goes back to every other conspiracy you've ever heard of. So for me, still, I still think we live on a planet. the definition of planet is what we live on. Is it a perfect sphere? I think that's proven that it's not a perfect sphere.[01:08:00] I'm not a scientist, but I've done research and research and research and supposedly it takes up to two weeks or so to become a flat earth. I've been doing this research since like the end of July, and I'm still not convinced. wanted to give it a fair shake. Didn't wanna be a douche bag. Would invite any flat earth to come on and talk to us. We'd love to have you on, but You didn't get me yet. Mike: I will take my final thoughts, a complete left turn here. I don't care. I don't care whether it's a giant paella pan or if we live on a dodge ball. I, I don't care. I don't care. Maybe it's the blue pilled part of my brain that still exists. I don't give a shit. It doesn't change anything. I'm still gonna wake up in the morning and have to go to work, have to pay my taxes, and eventually I'm gonna fucking die. That's just the way that it is. I don't care if we live on a flat plane, I don't care if we live on a globe. It's just the way that [01:09:00] it is. but I don't think that we live on a fly plane. I'm just gonna say that I don't think that I, I do think that there is a lot of cover up of our former history. That much I believe is true. I do believe that NASA is filled with a bunch of liars and they do fabricate things including, setting up these videos where they're watching astronauts float around, but the water stays in a cup. That's an interesting one. , I do think that they do composite images together and they are a bunch of liars that I completely agree with. . I love you whether you're a flat earth or not, but no, it's a no for me. Fran, give us your final thoughts. Did you become a flat earther in this episode?   Fronk: No, I didn't. , I'm not gonna go off on a limb and say that I tried to give flat earth theory, the benefit of [01:10:00] the doubt, but I tried to stay open-ended, especially towards like the beginning of the episode. I was just trying to like see it from both sides and I still do to an extent. And you're right in saying that their best argument is the space shit and nasa, but, that can't be all you're going off of here, because that, lends to so much other shit besides just the shape of the planet.  And not only that, if you're like sold on the shape of the planet, then you've been deceived. You know what, I'm gonna pull a flirter and tell you what you've been taught on. The internet is wrong, and it's all code. You've been tricked into thinking that what we live on is physical and that it has shape. There is no shape. I've never even been out of the country. You can't even convince me that Australia's real, let alone the, the, the fucking shape of the  Mike: you're partial flat earther because they don't believe that Australia is real either. Fronk: [01:11:00] Oh, no. Australia's not real Mike: listen, if you're in Australia and you, uh, you live there full time, reach out to us. Send us an email. Even better a voicemail, because I just want to hear the accent. Send us a voicemail and say, Hey, yeah, I exist. I'm here. This is a real place. Dave: Clearly they exist. They're number three on our Spotify Mike: That's right. Thanks Australia. Fronk: No, I, I never tried to doubt Australia. It was a metaphor, but Dave: Our Hustralians down under, Mike: That's hilarious. Dave: , if we offended you we're sorry. Well, I partially am. Mike: I, I, listen, I tried this episode. I think that I was better than the first episode. I didn't sit there and say anybody was an idiot or any of that stuff. like I said, you believe what you wanna believe, but on, at the end of the day, I don't think that it really matters. Fronk: And if it makes you feel [01:12:00] special, by all means,

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Admiral and Mrs. Croft comes to check out Kellynch Hall. Sir Walter, Elizabeth, and Mrs. Clay head to Bath, while Anne goes to stay with her sister Mary. Anne is the on-call therapist at Uppercross. Mary is the most. We find out that Captain Wentworth will soon by visiting. Akina and I go on a bit of a tangent about turning 40, getting married young, and how weird it is to have two anniversaries. What we're reading/watching/listening to: Severance, Under the Banner of Heaven, The Idiot by Elif Batuman Get in Touch! LA friends, come see Akina at the Altadena Library with Mary Lattimore on December 17: https://www.bedandbreakfast.life/ We have a twitter! We have a TikTok! Email us: Janeaustenculturenight@gmail.com Hosted by Laurel Nakai and Akina Cox Music and Production by Laurel Nakai Artwork by Akina Cox

In this episode, Andrew and David discuss one aspect of cultivating intrinsic motivation: the role of support. Cooperation and collaboration don't just happen, and leaving a group of people - particularly kids - to just do as they please isn't cultivating motivation. So how do you support intrinsic motivation? 0:00:03.0 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with David P. Langford who has devoted his life to applying Dr. Deming's philosophy to education and he offers us his practical advice for implementation. Today's topic is The Role of Support in Intrinsic Motivation. David, take it away. 0:00:29.5 David Langford: Thank you. So we're working through five factors that lead to high levels of intrinsic motivation. And we started off with control, autonomy, ownership, however you want to think about that, but that's number one. And then we had a discussion around that you have to develop levels of cooperation. And today I want to talk about the idea of support. So I'll never forget a kindergarten class, so students was giving a presentation to the State Board of Education and they were telling the state board about all the ownership they had in class and how they cooperated and how they did all these things on their own and they just knew what to do and had high degrees of ownership. And one of the board members said, "Well, if you're doing all these things, what's your teacher doing?" And without hesitating, I'll never forget this little boy grabs a microphone and he says, "The teacher is not in the closet, you know." 0:01:39.7 AS: My gosh, insightful. 0:01:42.1 DL: Oh yeah, the room was, there was probably 300 people in the room, at this state board meeting, and you could, the whispers were just, "What did he say? What is he talking about?" See, he knew intuitively that he was being allowed to do these things and supported to do these things and to work together and have a real community in the classroom. And that just didn't happen by itself. 0:02:12.4 AS: That's interesting because in that case, you sometimes would think, oh, the teacher's just, you know, letting the class go free or something like that. But it takes a lot of work. I mean, just as you talked, I was thinking about how confrontational America is in the world. You know, here I am in Asia and most people outside of the world do not think that America is a cooperative partner. In fact, people around the world oftentimes say, you know, they don't know whether it's better to be an enemy or a friend of America. And there's that just competitive. There's just not that cooperative. How do we work this out? How do we work together to get a better result for all of us? So continue on. Tell us more about support. 0:02:57.6 DL: Yeah. So if you if you want to see more intrinsic motivation emerge, you need to take a look at what you are doing. And you know, when you point a finger there, what is it that saying, there's three fingers pointing back at you? So yeah, what am I doing and how am I managing in such a way to not have a high degree of cooperation or a high degree of performance in a group? And so there are some very key factors that I've learned over the last 40 years that will either hinder or help intrinsic motivation to come out. And the first one I want to talk about, how do you support people is the area of feedback. So feedback versus evaluation. 0:03:53.9 DL: So you know, we always think that our job is to evaluate people, evaluate performance, evaluate a paper that you write and then give it back to you, put a grade on it, etcetera. People don't respect evaluation very well. There are just so many opinions in it, etcetera. Performance evaluations, Deming talked vociferously about getting rid of performance evaluations, but they do respect feedback. So when I'm in a classroom and I have an assignment, let's say it's a paper to write and you hand it in, yeah, I could go through it, put red marks all over it and then hand it back to you with a B minus on it and you'll probably just throw it in the trash can on the way out the door and that's the end of it. 0:04:50.6 DL: But if we've gone over what a quality standard is for that paper and what it should look like to meet that standard and now you hand that in and I start to give you feedback on it. I sit down with you and I say, "You know, this paragraph doesn't quite make sense. I think you really should rework these sentences and go over this and your punctuation is not quite right here and if you make these changes, I think you're going to be very close to being there, to meeting that standard, right?" Well, that's much different because I have a way to get out of my hole, right? But if I just have a B minus on it or C plus or whatever, there's no way for me to get out of that hole or to fix it. So it also brings into the whole grading thing. That's partly why Deming was so adamant about getting rid of grading in both corporations and schools, etcetera. Because it just limits the masses of people trying to achieve a high level of quality in anything they do. So moving to a feedback system is extremely important to get support for intrinsic motivation. 0:06:08.4 AS: And what do you say about the teachers and administrators and people who say, "Yeah, but feedback takes a lot more time." 0:06:19.2 DL: Exactly. So we have to think about things like that. If I'm having to spend way too much time giving feedback to people, it's probably because the upstream process wasn't very good. And I needed to go back and look at that and see, wow, if I want to have fewer and fewer students needing feedback to get it to a high quality standard, I might want to look first at the process I'm using to... The explanation of the assignment or how we went over it or examples that I show people up-front or whatever it might be. But that process is producing the end result. If I don't like the result, don't blame the people. They're just part of the system. 0:07:00.4 AS: It's interesting because I have a course that I've been teaching for a long time. And I have a lot of students going through it on a regular basis. And I can see the weaknesses when the reports are submitted. And then I go back and think, Okay, how do we resolve this? For instance, I want them to write in a very clear format. I want three bullets. I want some supporting arguments. So when I started teaching that, what I did is I made an Excel file that had a limit. You could only type in a certain amount of characters. And I said, "Okay, your first assignment is to operate within this limit." And then what I did, David, was I created a macro that would take a picture of that in that student's Excel file. And I said, "Submit your picture to the group. And then let's discuss those." 0:07:52.0 AS: And once I then have them present, five or 10 of them, randomly call on students to present your ideas, very quickly, all students can start to see, "Oh, crap, I see the weakness here. I wasn't that clear on this." And they started looking not only at common principles, but they also see their weaknesses. And then that then goes back into my lecture as I revise it for the next group to say, "Okay, how do I make sure that they don't make those mistakes the next time?" And that's one of the things about the manufacturing process that made Deming such a, it's so, it's sometimes simple to apply in a consistent process that's just cranking away. How do we think about how we apply that in a classroom that we do once a year or once every semester or once every term? 0:08:37.6 DL: Well, one of the previous podcasts, we talked about the Bell curve or the histogram responses of somebody. So your job as a, especially in education, is to not flatten the curve so that you have greater distances from top performers to low performers, but to actually sort of tighten the curve up so it's very tight. So what used to be top performance is actually being achieved by some of your lowest level students, and the top students are actually doing things that are just unbelievable because the whole curve is much, much tighter between the haves and the have-nots, so to speak. 0:09:29.4 AS: And are we also trying to shift that, once we've tightened it, then we have the ability to start to shift it to say, "Okay, what next level of output could we get with students," or something like that? 0:09:40.7 DL: Yeah, my job is to see that the average performance goes up, overall. And the only way to get a higher average is for everybody to achieve, you know, moving that up. So there's some other key factors that are critical for supporting intrinsic motivation. So the next one is what I call fail forward. So you're going to have to put people in a fail forward loop. So either you just didn't do the assignment at all, in which you're going to have to fail forward a lot, right? Because you didn't, you have to produce something or you produced something, but it didn't, it doesn't yet meet the standard for high quality work. Well, I'm going to give you time to get it to that standard because that's my job. My job is to see that you learn this material. My job is not to come up with sophisticated rating and ranking methods and spend all my time tracking that and figuring it through. That's not the job of teaching and learning. 0:10:48.7 AS: Can you explain fail forward a little bit more? It's not something I've heard before. 0:10:54.2 DL: Well, I have five children and they all learned to walk, whether my wife and I helped them or not. But it was always great fun for us when they got ready to walk and we knew they were standing up. And so I'd stand them up and my wife would maybe get 10 feet away. And then she'd say, "Come on, come on, you can do it." They don't really know what they're supposed to do or what's going on. But they're glad that we're both there supporting them learning to walk. But invariably, our kids would take about three little steps and then they'd fall back on their little bums. And, you know, and so what did we do intuitively as parents? 0:11:37.7 AS: Go pick them up. What did you... 0:11:39.1 DL: That's right. 0:11:40.5 AS: Yeah. 0:11:41.1 DL: Or we would applause or say, good job or right. But this doesn't happen in schools. You know, my wife and I were both teachers, so we gave our children D's and F's on walking the first time around as motivation so that they'd learn to walk. 0:11:58.1 AS: You go in the corner. 0:12:00.3 DL: Yeah. So, yeah. So when we look at some basic things like that, we realize as part of the human condition, somebody that was actually grading the performance of a toddler walking like that, we would probably report them to social services or something that this is so dangerous. But why would we want to do that to them when they are in first grade trying to learn math or they're trying to write an English paper at the high school level. Right? You would want to have the same philosophy that, hey, you made an attempt. Your attempt wasn't quite reaching the standard yet, but you'll get there. You'll get there. And I'm here to support you. And my job is here that you, as long as you keep making these attempts, you're going to keep failing forward until you get there. 0:12:47.2 AS: Right. 0:12:49.2 DL: And then it's pretty amazing when you understand the neuroscience behind all this, right? Because we talked earlier about the control issue, about time, but everybody's going to learn at different rates of speed and different time. And the more I understand that variability built into the time factor, I can manage a system so that more and more and more people are all achieving very high levels of performance. And that's my real job. 0:13:20.8 DL: So another area that I want to talk about under the area of support, how to use support in an environment of intrinsic motivation is sharing. I just over the years just found that sharing is so intrinsic to people. So that's whether I have students just pair up, "Hey, pair up with the student next to you and share, you know, what did you do and how did you do it and what did you learn from that experience, etcetera." Or all the way to I have exemplary performance in my classroom by five students, and I'm going to give them a chance to share what it is they accomplished. Now, that's vastly different than me saying, I've got these five students and they're all going to get an award for being most improved students in the class or something like that. Everybody else in the class has no idea how those people got there. So they intuitively will make up their own stories. Oh, well, you know, the teacher just likes her or he's a brown noser or he's this or that. Right? That's where all of these terms come from. 0:14:34.1 AS: Right. 0:14:34.5 DL: Because they have no idea how they actually accomplished this great thing that they did because that wasn't shared properly. 0:14:43.3 AS: Right. 0:14:44.8 DL: And sharing is also a way that you can honor people that have made breakthroughs. It doesn't always have to be your top performers. Right. It could be somebody that really worked hard on something and had a big breakthrough. Is it as good as the top performer in the classroom? No, because I understand variation in the classroom. But... 0:15:05.5 AS: And you just said that somebody that went... What I was thinking about is they had a, somebody had a major breakthrough. But actually, if somebody follows the process of failing forward and they don't have a massive breakthrough, they're still going through the right process. And I was recently interviewing a lady named Annie Duke, who talked about, who talks all about, you know, that the process is more important than the outcome in decision making. You may have had a good outcome only because of luck but if you're improving your process of the way you're doing it, your probability of a better outcome over time is great. So even if somebody, you know, having someone share their experience of failing forward and keep falling down and, you know, how does it feel and what is it that's motivating you to keep getting up and, you know, yeah, because I want to do this or that. I want to, you know. So that's what I was thinking about when you were talking about that. 0:16:04.5 DL: Yeah, even inside of a grading system, when I started learning about Deming I couldn't just stop grading students. But I could apply these methods and this thinking to have more and more and more of the students all do A work. Right. So instead of like 5% of the students getting A's, could I get it to 20% of the students doing that level of work? And now can I get it to 50% of the students getting that work? And just like what you're talking about, it all has to do with the process of, you know, what are we doing and how do we do explanations? Or maybe I shouldn't even be doing an explanation. It's just getting in the way of people. And using that data to try to understand is my process producing the result I want. So in a classroom as a teacher, I have a process. I always taught my students you have processes, too. Right? So if your processes are not getting you to the level, you may be want to start talking to some of your colleagues and saying, hey, what are you doing or how are you going about that or how did you make that breakthrough? Because they may have insights that you've never thought about before. 0:17:16.5 AS: So if we look at these five key factors for a system of intrinsic motivation, control, cooperation, support, challenge and meaning, right now, we're talking about support. And would it be about also you're creating a supportive environment, encouraging people to support each other and giving them feedback? And that's part of being in a supportive environment. 0:17:40.6 DL: Absolutely. Yeah. 0:17:42.1 AS: So let me... 0:17:42.7 DL: That's why I keep saying it's a system of intrinsic motivation. These are interrelated factors. And the more you think about each one of them and how it relates to the others, you become sort of a guru in the classroom that no matter who comes into your classroom over time, you will start to see them more intrinsically motivated when you change that situation. And so lastly, I would want to say that this takes a role change, takes a role change, whether you're a teacher, administrator, a parent, a student. It's going to take a role change to think about working well with other people and cooperating. Right. And sharing what I have. See, I can't, what we talked about earlier is I can't really share my great process if it's going to be a detriment to me. Right. If there's going to be... 0:18:48.3 AS: My grade is going to go down on a curve, if it's graded on a curve, I have this amazing way of really thinking about this particular topic. So I think I'll just keep it to myself. 0:18:58.3 DL: Yeah. So, and we see this in really, you know, big systems. I won't mention the name of the university, but I was working at a university and they caught 200 students cheating on electrical engineering exams. Well, in the investigation, not only were they cheating, this cheating cycle had been going on for 12 years. The students were passing down the answers to this professor's tests for 12 years from generation to generation. They were actually being intrinsically motivated to share, you know, to the next generation about what was going on. But what did they want to do? Well, they wanted to expel the 200 students that were caught cheating and all this. But without understanding, you created a system forcing people to sacrifice their integrity to get an artificial result, because all the classes were being graded on curves. And so... You're not going to get the grade you want unless you cheat. And so the system is forcing people to do these defective behaviors. 0:20:12.5 AS: And, David, I have the most horrible response to that by the teachers or the administrators that you're telling. And they say, yeah, but we're preparing them for work. 0:20:23.0 DL: I don't want those people working for me. 0:20:24.2 AS: Yeah. 0:20:25.5 DL: Right? 0:20:28.2 AS: Yeah. But it's... 0:20:29.7 DL: We're preparing them to sacrifice their integrity when they come to work. Yeah, that's really what we want. 0:20:35.2 AS: Disaster. And it is. There's so much of that in the workforce. And so I think what you're talking about is so critical related to education, because if we can get these seeds planted right, I mean, we already know that people are, and you've talked about it, that people are intrinsically motivated naturally, people are naturally wanting to cooperate. And if we can continue that cooperation and intrinsic motivation, at least they know in school, like this is the best way to get the best out of people instead of whipping them like a horse, you know, as an example. So maybe I'll wrap up. Yep. Go ahead. 0:21:11.0 DL: Well, it's funny that you mentioned horses because I actually raise horses. But I, one of the things when people come to visit our horses and stuff, I have to explain to them that, you know, we don't use whips and we don't use carrots and we don't give them treats because you start to give a horse a treat for whatever. Pretty soon they're biting somebody and they're trying to dig in your pockets. And again, defective behavior that I'm encouraging or I created. And even the horses have an innate sense of wanting to work and do a good job. And when they see that you're really supporting them, that's our topic today, supporting them in doing that job, they can achieve amazing things, that even works with animals, so. 0:22:02.5 AS: Yeah, that's a great point. I know for anybody that's watched anything like The Dog Whisperer or The Horse Whisperer and all that, it's all about, you know, if you ever watch that show, The Dog Whisperer with Cesar, Cesar Millan, you know... 0:22:17.5 DL: Millan. 0:22:17.8 AS: Yeah. What you realize is it's all about untangling the mess that the adults or the people cause with these dogs. And it becomes so clear. 0:22:31.3 DL: He even says, you know, I don't have bad dogs, we have bad people, so. 0:22:35.8 AS: Yeah, yeah. And that's a lot of what we're talking about in the whole education space is how do we, you know, instead of focusing on the kids, focus on how we improve the system, because ultimately that's our responsibility. And if I just would share one last thing, it is that I remember going to my first Deming seminar, it was in 1990 and I was about, I don't know, a 24 year old guy, and I was working for Pepsi, and I saw a lot of the stuff that Deming was talking about. But, man, when he turned and went after some of the leading managers in that room and I wasn't one, I mean, I was a supervisor on the factory floor, and I heard that, I was like, whoa, that was a wake up call to me to say, take responsibility. You know, it is our responsibility to set this system so that there is an intrinsic motivation. So that just brought me back to that moment. 0:23:28.2 DL: Yeah. Any of us that ever saw Deming have great stories, but your story made me think about I was at a conference with him one time and an Admiral got up and asked a question and Deming said, "We already covered that this morning. Where were you, in the parking lot?" [laughter] 0:23:49.2 DL: That was the Deming wit. 0:23:51.9 AS: Yes, it could be biting, biting. Well, let me summarize some of this now. Again, we've been talking about the five key factors for the system of intrinsic motivation. And today we talked about support. And one of the questions you kicked it off with is like, what am I doing to impede cooperation? You know, how do you start to ask that question? You also talked about the value of feedback instead of evaluation and the idea that people respect feedback. And also you talked a lot about how we can think about like, what's the quality standard and how do we give feedback? Is our quality standard clear and how do we give feedback, but also adjust ourselves and our system of teaching to improve that? And also, I like the discussion that we had about the Bell curve because it is something that it's abused. 0:24:43.5 AS: It's abused all the time around the world. But you talked about the job is not to flatten the curve, but to tighten it. We're not trying to get these extremely bad and extremely good outcomes. We're trying to get a more narrow and then to try to shift that curve. And that means that the average is going up. You also talked and you gave the example of a baby learning how to walk and failing forward. And part of support is creating a supportive environment where people are. Finally, the last part is we talked about was the idea of sharing, and sharing... Getting people to share their experience. Instead of awarding or rewarding them, having them share their experiences, not only of the people that have hit a particular milestone or whatever, but also the people that haven't done that. And then the last thing I think is really the big challenge for all the listeners and viewers out there, which is this - to be supportive takes a role change. It's about working well with others and helping other people to see how to share and work together. Anything you would add to that? 0:25:51.9 DL: Yeah, I'd say ultimately, we want people to take risks because if they're not taking risks, we're not going to have breakthroughs. We're not going to have new levels of learning in schools. And in order to take those risks, they have to feel like they're supported, whether it worked out well or it didn't work out well. If it didn't work out well, what did you learn from that? And it may be what you learned was, I'm never going to do that again. Okay, well, you learn something from that, right? But if they're in that highly supportive environment, you'll see their intrinsic motivation for learning and work come out at a level that you never thought possible before. I can guarantee it. 0:26:32.3 AS: Wonderful. Well, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion, David. For listeners, remember to go to Deming.org to continue your Deming journey. Listeners can learn more about David at Langfordlearning.com. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming: "People are entitled to joy in work."