Podcast appearances and mentions of jordan couch

Jordan Couch is a partner at Palace Law. That didn't come overnight. He earned it. True to the Palace Law culture, Jordan is committed to helping real people get justice, no matter how long it takes. This approach to today's “David versus Goliath” workers compensation system is critical because the Department of Labor and Industries is designed to wear down the injured until they simply give up. Jordan's life experience has given him the grit and perseverance necessary to fight this battle every day. Jordan grew up in the prairie land of eastern Montana. His father was a fishing guide and his mother was a teacher but Jordan's love for solving complex problems and his high school debate experience drew him to the legal profession. After high school, Jordan traveled to Maryland where he graduated from St. John's College and then to Indiana where he got his law degree from Indiana University's Maurer School of Law. While in law school, Jordan worked for NASA and clerked for judges in the Maryland Court of Appeals and the Federal District Court for the Western District of Washington. He also managed and litigated cases for a pro bono organization that helped survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking. Through each of those roles, Jordan honed his skills as a courtroom advocate and deepened his commitment to helping those in need. In June of 2015 Jordan moved to Washington to put his skills and experience to use helping injured workers. Jordan knows his way around the complex workers compensation system and feels he is at his best when cross examining the doctors who deny injured workers the benefits they deserve. In 2020 Jordan was given an APEX (Acknowledging Professional Excellence) award from the Washington State Bar Association. Outside of the office, Jordan is heavily involved in various legal associations including the Washington Supreme Court's Access to Justice Board and the Washington State Association for Justice. True to his Montana roots, Jordan is an outdoorsman at heart and loves fishing, hunting, skiing, hiking and any other excuse to be outside. He's also an avid reader and loves to check out the local dive bars for a bite to eat. He and his wife, Maria, have a cat named Ellie and a dog named Penelope. Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/jordanlcouch Palace Law: Palacelaw.com Learn more about EmotionTrac and our AI-driven Emotional Intelligence Platform: https://emotiontrac.com/calendly/

Jordan Couch is a partner at Palace Law. That didn't come overnight. He earned it. True to the Palace Law culture, Jordan is committed to helping real people get justice, no matter how long it takes. This approach to today's “David versus Goliath” workers compensation system is critical because the Department of Labor and Industries is designed to wear down the injured until they simply give up. Jordan's life experience has given him the grit and perseverance necessary to fight this battle every day. Jordan grew up in the prairie land of eastern Montana. His father was a fishing guide and his mother was a teacher but Jordan's love for solving complex problems and his high school debate experience drew him to the legal profession. After high school, Jordan traveled to Maryland where he graduated from St. John's College and then to Indiana where he got his law degree from Indiana University's Maurer School of Law. While in law school, Jordan worked for NASA and clerked for judges in the Maryland Court of Appeals and the Federal District Court for the Western District of Washington. He also managed and litigated cases for a pro bono organization that helped survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking. Through each of those roles, Jordan honed his skills as a courtroom advocate and deepened his commitment to helping those in need. In June of 2015 Jordan moved to Washington to put his skills and experience to use helping injured workers. Jordan knows his way around the complex workers compensation system and feels he is at his best when cross examining the doctors who deny injured workers the benefits they deserve. In 2020 Jordan was given an APEX (Acknowledging Professional Excellence) award from the Washington State Bar Association. Outside of the office, Jordan is heavily involved in various legal associations including the Washington Supreme Court's Access to Justice Board and the Washington State Association for Justice. True to his Montana roots, Jordan is an outdoorsman at heart and loves fishing, hunting, skiing, hiking and any other excuse to be outside. He's also an avid reader and loves to check out the local dive bars for a bite to eat. He and his wife, Maria, have a cat named Ellie and a dog named Penelope. Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/jordanlcouch Palace Law: Palacelaw.com Learn more about EmotionTrac and our AI-driven Emotional Intelligence Platform: https://emotiontrac.com/calendly/

Hang tight – we're going alllll the way back to our very first episode for this special Halloween celebration! Jordan Couch, lawyer from Tacoma and friend of the pod, came on to answer some ~spooky~ nonprofit questions and brainstorm Halloween puns. Are you haunted by unfinished business at your nonprofit? Spooked about witchy board members? Don't miss this one! Join me on Facebook Subscribe to my newsletter

In today's episode, we talk with Jordan Couch, Partner at Palace Law. For the last five years, Jordan has specialized in workers' compensation cases and has made a name for himself championing the rights of those injured in the workplace.In this episode, Jordan shares the story of his long battle against a piece of legislature that denied his client due process. But perhaps most extraordinary is that it presented Jordan with the rarest of courtroom opportunities - a second chance.Have you got a story about your legal career that you'd like to share? Get in touch with us over at That One Case.For more information about Jordan, check out his LinkedIn. Or To find out more about his firm, head over to the Palace Law website.

Legal skills and rote knowledge aren't everything. To be a truly effective lawyer, you need a well-rounded set of traits and behaviors, and as we're evaluating staff to hire for our firms, we need to consider applicants more holistically. Jordan Couch of Palace Law joins us to discuss a 26-factor rubric he discovered via LSAC, and how he translated that into a checklist of behaviors every lawyer he hires should have.  Find Jordan on Twitter or LinkedIn, and Palace Law at www.palacelaw.com . FiveStarCounsel.com Get our FREE client service whitepaper!

Here's a Halloween trick: we're going back in time ONE YEAR to our very first episode of Charity Therapy! Jordan Couch, lawyer from Tacoma and friend of the pod, joined me to answer nonprofit questions. Are you haunted by unfinished business at your nonprofit? Spooked about witchy board members? Don't worry ghouls & goblins, we have advice to avoid being haunted by nonprofit leadership skeletons! • Join me on Facebook • Subscribe to my newsletter

We know the profession has a mental health crisis.  We have serious concerns about bars asking applicants about their mental health. But do we really understand the position these questions can put an applicant in?   In this episode, Megan discusses and (in a first on this show) reads out loud the US District Court for the Western District of Kentucky's decision in Doe v. Supreme Court of Kentucky.  Doe applied for licensure after seeking mental health treatment, and Kentucky "put her through the ringer", eventually admitting her 994 days after she applied.  Then she sued for how she had been treated - and was dismissed from court, largely on standing grounds.  This episode highlights why all lawyers should care about what is happening int he admissions process, and Megan urges everyone to get involved. Resources Mentioned: Lawyers Gone Ethical with Jordan Couch on the Bar Exam Jordan Couch's analysis of the efficacy of the bar exam Court opinion Article about this case Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to SUBSCRIBE to the show to receive every new episode delivered straight to your podcast player every Tuesday. If you enjoyed this episode, please help me get the word out about this podcast. Rate and Review this show in Apple Podcasts, Stitcher Radio, Google Play, and Tunein and be sure to share this podcast with a friend. Be sure to connect with me and reach out with any questions or recommendations for specific resources: Twitter Facebook LinkedIn Website Email me at megan[at]zaviehlaw[dot]com This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not to be construed as legal advice specific to your circumstances. If you need help with any legal matters, be sure to consult with an attorney regarding your specific needs.

Bar exams are a rite of passage for attorneys graduating from law school and being sworn in to practice law. But what if the bar exam is not feasible, such as during COVID-19? And what if the bar exam has an incredibly racist history that calls it further into question? And what if there is no empirical evidence that the bar exam has any correlation to an individual's ability to effectively practice law?  Jordan Couch is the Chair of the Washington Young Lawyers Committee, and he has been taking up the laboring oar on diploma privilege, gathering data and writing to advocate for more state bars to grant graduates the right to practice.  Jordan sat down with Megan to discuss this pressing issue and its many ramifications. Resources Mentioned: Jordan's letter regarding diploma privilege Article on history of bar exam CA bar statistics with race breakdown Some info from the LSAC bar passage study A more modern article about race and the bar exam More on the history of diploma privilege Guest Info: Jordan Couch on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter Jordan’s Email:  jordan@palacelaw.com Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to SUBSCRIBE to the show to receive every new episode delivered straight to your podcast player every Tuesday. If you enjoyed this episode, please help me get the word out about this podcast. Rate and Review this show in Apple Podcasts, Stitcher Radio, Google Play, and Tunein and be sure to share this podcast with a friend. Be sure to connect with me and reach out with any questions or recommendations for specific resources: Twitter Facebook LinkedIn Website Email me at megan[at]zaviehlaw[dot]com This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not to be construed as legal advice specific to your circumstances. If you need help with any legal matters, be sure to consult with an attorney regarding your specific needs.

Jordan Couch, a Partner at Palace Law, has been front and center for the recent events related to protests and COVID-19 in Seattle, Washington. Today on Daily Matters, he talks about what those experiences have been like—and a whole lot more.

What is a law firm’s culture? It does not have to be any one thing, any stereotype, or inspired by a movie. Every firm has a culture, even if it has not been consciously identified and cultivated. In this episode, Megan talks with Jordan Couch at Clio Con 2019 about his role as Cultural Ambassador at Palace Law, what it means to have an intentional law firm culture, and how to bring your firm’s values to light. Guest Info: Jordan Couch on Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter Jordan's Email:  jordan@palacelaw.com Palace Paw on Instagram   Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to SUBSCRIBE to the show to receive every new episode delivered straight to your podcast player every Tuesday. If you enjoyed this episode, please help me get the word out about this podcast. Rate and Review this show in Apple Podcasts, Stitcher Radio, Google Play, and Tunein and be sure to share this podcast with a friend. Be sure to connect with me and reach out with any questions or recommendations for specific resources: Twitter Facebook LinkedIn Website Email me at megan[at]zaviehlaw[dot]com This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not to be construed as legal advice specific to your circumstances. If you need help with any legal matters, be sure to consult with an attorney regarding your specific needs.

Jordan Couch joins for this very spooky special episode. We answer listener nonprofit questions. Should your nonprofit buy a hearse for the local goblin elementary? What to do when your new nonprofit becomes a zombie corporation? Plus, advice to avoid being haunted by nonprofit leadership skeletons! Follow me on SoundCloud www.soundcloud.com/birkenlaw Join me on Facebook www.facebook.com/birkenlaw Subscribe to my newsletter www.birkenlaw.com/signup

For years, businesses have been using automation to free their staff from repetitive tasks—and are reaping the benefits for their bottom lines. Now, with the help of technology, law firms too can automate processes and focus on delivering an incredible experience to their clients. However, many law firms have been slow to adopt automation: According to ILTA’s 2018 technology survey, 46% of firms still aren’t using any system to help themselves automate business processes. Nehal Madhani of Alt Legal and Jordan Couch of Palace Law break down some of the misconceptions around automation in law firms. They also explain how automation works, and provide tips for automating processes in your own practice. With the power of technology, it’s easier than you think to automate repetitive tasks and get more out of your day.

For this episode of Clienting, Gyi and Kelly answered marketing questions from former Clienting guests. Audio questions:  Alex Barthet- Blog called the Lien Zone about construction topics- trying to show up on SERP's as the featured snippet. Single best thing to do to appear in the snippets? Should he care about showing up in the snippets?  How? The content should answer a question, must be high-quality (comprehensive, entertaining/engaging, etc), has to be 'the best answer.'  Search for what you want to rank for, see what comes up. Also look at the People Also Ask box Create something better Already showing up in page 1 is a good place to start Keep paragraphs short (40-50 words) and structure the content with bullets, etc. Should you care? https://moz.com/blog/optimize-featured-snippets Jared Correia-   Lawyers are flummoxed by social media- can lawyers pick one medium for social media and which one should they choose?   Jared's son, Joe: How do I get other kids to trade me their good pokemon cards for my weak pokemon cards?  Jason Beahm- Are there any tricks to running successful PPC campaigns without spending tons of money? For example, I have heard that this can work with long tail keywords, is this true? :) PPC Hero Brad Geddes Kirk Williams - PPC Kirk If you could only recommend one or two kinds of content to create and market, what would that look like? Where to put your energy right now if you feel like maybe this is an area that has been lacking. Written questions:  Sam Glover-  What Yoast SEO plugin settings should I check or change after installing it on a new website? And is the pro version worth paying for? Erin Levine-  What platform do you use to build sites for clients? WordPress? Wix? Why? If a client has a limited budget and wants to work with you, what do you suggest that they start with first? Updating website? SM presence? Do your copywriter services including pitching to media? If not, do you have a go to resource to help guide us on that endeavor? When planning marketing services for a particular client, what factors do you consider besides the obvious (budget)? Size of firm? Where the clients are? How are you able to satisfy your taco craving when you live in the mid-west? Is there really any good Mexican food there?  Jordan Couch-  What’s the best way for attorneys to gather data and measure return on investment in social media marketing? It seems like just measuring social media engagement isn’t sufficient since you could have a very active following without any of them converting into clients. Likes, comments shares (vanity metrics) Reach Audience engagement Site traffic Leads generated Sign-ups and conversions Revenue generated downloads Tracking: FB Pixel, UTM parameters https://www.searchenginejournal.com/measure-roi-social-media-efforts/263259/

Jordan Couch is an attorney and Cultural Ambassador at Palace Law where his practice focuses on plaintiff's side workers' compensation and personal injury litigation. Outside of his practice Jordan is heavily involved in state, local, and national bar associations, advocating for a better, more client-centric future to the legal profession. Find him on social media @jordanlcouch or email jordan@palacelaw.com. What You'll Learn in this Episode:  Benefits of instilling values in your firm, Setting up proper expectations with your clients, Productivity hacks, Technology and methodologies to work efficiently. Contact Information: Twitter: www.twitter.com/jordanlcouch jordan@palacelaw.com. Thanks for Checking Out the Show Notes and for Listening! I really hope you enjoyed this episode. I would really appreciate it if you shared this episode with a friend who could benefit from listening to this particular episode.   I would really appreciate it if you shared this episode with a friend who could benefit from listening to this particular episode. If there is any topic you'd like us to cover or guest you'd like us to have on the show, you can email me at: karima@genwhylawyer.comAlso, don't forget to subscribe to the GWL Podcast in Apple Podcasts or in Stitcher Radio. That way, every time I prepare a new episode for you, it'll automatically show up in your phone.

Gyi & Kelly talk with Jordan Couch of Palace Law about how values inform their marketing and client development.  Jordan L. Couch is an attorney and Cultural Ambassador at Palace Law where his practice focuses on plaintiff's side workers’ compensation and personal injury litigation. Outside of his practice Jordan is heavily involved in state, local, and national bar associations, advocating for a better, more client-centric future to the legal profession. Find him on social media @jordanlcouch or email jordan@palacelaw.com. This episode covers:  - How to integrate core values in work life so they become part of your firm's client interactions.  - How to talk to clients about your values. - Using your company values on social media. Palace Law's Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook for examples. - Thinking creatively to provide benefits to your clients, like Palace Law's case calculator. - Value of the month to ingrain each one in daily work life. - Encouraging and recognizing when a firm employee displays the firm values. - Transparency and teamwork to benefit the entire team AND clients. - Advertising as your authentic self, which gives potential clients the opportunity to see who you are and connect with you. 

In this episode with Jordan Couch, we talk about how he uses Trello in his law firm. Jordan walks us through what his workflow used to look like without Trello, what it looks like now, and how he balances his workflow using Trello and a host of other tools, like Clio.

In this episode with Jordan Couch, we talk about how he uses Trello in his law firm. Jordan walks us through what his workflow used to look like without Trello, what it looks like now, and how he balances his workflow using Trello and a host of other tools, like Clio.

Staying relevant. Embracing technology to increase efficiency. Investing the time it takes to improve. Attorney and cultural ambassador at his firm in Tacoma, Washington, Jordan Couch connects with with Mark and offers his perspective on what a law firm can become simply by looking at everything a bit differently. ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. Transcript: MARK: Hello, welcome to another episode of ALPS in Brief, the ALPS risk management podcast. We're coming to you from the ALPS home office in the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the ALPS risk manager. I have the pleasure today of sitting down with Jordan Couch. Jordan is an attorney and cultural ambassador at Palace Law. He has done some writing on redefining lawyers and we're just going to have a conversation today about relevancy. Jordan, before we jump into our conversation, would you take a few minutes and just share a little bit about yourself and can you kind of fill us in on what's this cultural ambassador all about? JORDAN: Yeah, so I actually grew up out in eastern Montana, so part of me wishes I was in Missoula right now. But I am a plaintiffs workers compensation personal injury attorney out in Tacoma, Washington these days. In my office I carry a few roles, but the main one is I'm an attorney. And then in addition to that, I am the cultural ambassador of the firm. What that comes from is a couple years ago, the management team sat down at the firm and decided we needed to lay out what our mission is, what our values are, who we really are as a firm and we need to define that. Our mission is to help the injured and every community and we have a list of seven core values that we think help us do that. My job is to make sure that we are living up to that as a firm and that we are promoting ourselves based on that, and kind of conversing about that. Because it's one thing to define your values and your mission, it's another to live them. And so, my job comes from everything from talking about it to others, to making sure that when we hire people on, they're people that share our values and are going to stay with us because they believe in those values. And also, encouraging conversation right and in the office. We have monthly values that we kind of focus on. We talk about them and share stories about them. And then I'm also around encouraging people whenever they want to try something new in the office or pitch a case to take, or new idea for the office. I tell them make sure you put it in terms of these values and sell that to the team and talk about it that way and have it be a part of our everyday life, instead of something that we define and set aside. That's that job. MARK: Yeah, no, I really like that. It's a tangent here for a moment, but you find businesses of all types, to include law firms. But just sitting down and talking about mission statements and all these kinds of things. It's one thing to kind of do the preliminary work of defining who you want to be, and it's another thing to walk the walk consistently, day after day, throughout the year, year after year. I love that. That's a great idea. JORDAN: Yeah, it's unique position and it's taken some trial and error, but we're making new efforts on it. We constantly try it and we have to find ways to encourage people to talk about it every day. So, we have big posters around the office too, the talk about the values and are posted up everywhere. So, you can't walk into the opposite of seeing them, and our clients see them the second they walk into our office too. MARK: Very good. One of my interests in again having this discussion, yeah, I do over the years, quite a bit of CLEs and a lot of consulting. But in a number of the CLE programs we do, and we tend to focus on risk management, malpractice of wings, ethics, that kind of thing. But in recent years, I've been setting up some high bows and just talking about changes in the law. I find it interesting when I talk about the rise of Avvo advisors and example, or Legal Zoom, you see so many lawyers really starting to get, I don't know if it's threatened or upset. To my surprise, one of the comments that keeps coming up over and over again these lawyers get up and they'll say, because we're on a panel typically with bar council or ethics council and this kind of thing, they'll start yelling at the bar, "It's your job to fix this. To do something. It's the unauthorized practice law go out and make these entities go away." And we all sit here kind of ... It's it's not the role of the bar to do that, obviously. But we sit here and say, "These guys just aren't getting it." Law is changing and evolving very, very rapidly. Now I'm not here to say that's a good or a bad thing. I have my opinions about it, but I sit and say these guys that had these kinds of opinions in from my perspective seem to just not understand. I understand that they're frightened by it, but they don't see how they fit in going forward. And so, the answer is to bury their head and trail others to try to make this go away. You and I both know that just isn't going to happen. So, sort of with that premise, you know, speaking to the solo small firm lawyers in particular, what thoughts do you have about how to stay relevant? What does it look like? You've been referred to as a lawyer futurist as well. Can you kind of start to navigate this direction for us? JORDAN: Yeah. So, there's a lot there to talk about. I always begin with telling lawyers that at the end of the day, right now we are bad at what we do. Because you ask lawyers, and I've done surveys, "What do you do?" And they say, "Oh, we're protectors and we're problem solvers and we're helpers." But over 75% of legal needs go unmet. Now not only is that kind of a shame and a stain on our profession, but at the same time, that's a huge market that is untapped. Those are people out there that have legal needs that want us to do the things that people pay us to do, and we're not doing it. And so, I think solo and small firms especially are in a good opportunity because they're flexible. That's part of why I like working in a smaller firm. We can go after that marketplace. And so, instead of seeing Avvo and legalism competitors, think of them as people with really good ideas we should steal from, and then go after that same market. Because at the end of the day, they're not going after the clients that we fight over. Most law firms fight over 10% of the clients. The rest of us fight over the other 15% of the clients, and then 75% is just out there waiting for someone. They're not people that can't afford an attorney. I do continuously work, everyone can afford me. But it's their legal needs, that just tend to go unmet. The first thing I always tell people is this is opportunity. The way you have to go about addressing this is instead of looking at people as competitors going against your business, redefine your business. Because if your business is writing stock, wills and trusts for people, your business will die and it will die soon. It's time you need to start inventing new ways to better serve clients. To not only go after that 75% of people that are not tapped into, but also to do your own work more efficiently and make more money of the work you're doing and have a better work, life balance and a better life. Solo and small firm attorneys are highly overworked and do a lot of administrative stuff that they're not trained to do that they don't enjoy doing, and there's a lot of opportunity there. One of my favorite examples is actually a friend of mine, Forest Carlson, who is a wills and trusts attorney. He looked at our legal zoom and looked at Avvo inside of this was competing against him by offering low cost services. So, he built his own website, washingtonwills.com or wa-wills.com, that allows people to create a will online, on their own, and it's completely free. So, he's undercutting legal zoom, he's undercutting Avvo and serving these people. But what happens when things get a little complex and they can't do it on their own? Is they get routed to him to hire an attorney, and they want his services. They've already got the basics of work done, so he gets to focus on the higher-level work. Or as I like to call it, practicing at the top of my degree. MARK: Interesting. So, he's using this tool then, as I understand it, as sort of a screening. It's going out and finding the clients for him, and at the same time providing a service. JORDAN: Absolutely. We have a similar thing on out office we've just launched, what we call the Patbot, because my boss's name is Patrick. It's a robot on the front page of our website. It's right next to a calculator that will tell you how much your case is worth for free. And then it's this robot that will look through your case and talk to you about it and tell you know where your case is, what steps you need to take, because it gives us more informed customers coming to us. Some people will look at that and say, Oh, I can do all of those things and they'll go and do it. And those are the clients we don't want in the first place. Because they'd be mad at the end and saying, "Well, you didn't do anything. Why am I paying you?" Right? MARK: Right. JORDAN: I could have done this on my own. Now they know exactly what we're going to do, and they know when it's done in their case. And if we can't offer value to them, they're not going to hire us. But if they look at that and say, "I want someone else to do this." Then they come to hire us in there. We get better clients and we get to focus on the more intricate interesting legal work. MARK: Helped me understand sort of the journey that you guys took. What I'm trying to understand is, what advice do you have if I'm sitting here saying, "Okay, I need to be something different. I'm stuck." In other words. What can you share from for folks just saying, "Okay, I kind of get the gist of it, but I have no clue how to move forward here." JORDAN: First thing is to just stop. You're going to have to stop and take time and kind of take a leap of faith in this system that mean something. Where our office began is my boss had been you know bar president for a while and he'd been speaking about these issues. I had been in law school with some really great mentors that had taught me about these issues in the legal profession, got me looking at this. He finished up his term and a little while later I came into the office and we had a lot of good innovative people in the office had supported this idea. We sat down, and it was just time to say, "Okay, what do we need to do differently? How can we do things differently?" We decided to take a step back from our work and actually invest time in what needs to be done now. It takes an initial investment and it takes looking out there and kind of asking yourself, "What am I doing that I don't like doing? What am I doing that I don't need to be doing? What are the things I like least in the day?" And we actually did surveys in our office asking the entire staff, "What don't you like about your job? What is your biggest hindrances?" Start by identifying those and as you start listing those out, ask yourself, "What do I have to keep doing then? Can I outsource this? Can I automate this?" And that's just the beginning of it, right? Of looking at just the things you don't like. And then there a lot of things that can be done about this. There are a lot of processes that can be learned on designed thinking, where you start focusing on what your clients need and try and get their perspective and getting them involved in the process. But it really begins with just sitting down and taking time to think and taking time to act creatively and practice creativity. There are a lot of books on how to kind of train yourself to be creative, and I taught a CLE where we talked about that a little bit. But they are little things. Like just practice coming up with crazy ideas, like what would be a really weird practice area? Like what if I wanted to be a food lawyer? Or what if I wanted to go out and invent you know the next Legal Zoom, right? Just come up with these crazy ideas. Or, have a robot that would answer all my clients/ questions, right? MARK: Right. JORDAN: Some of them will be impossible, but some of them will start to turn into really good ideas and can be developed. Don't be afraid to test things. I think one of the biggest hindrances that lawyers face is they're afraid of failure. At the end of the day, as long as you are afraid of failure, you will never innovate. Because you have to be open to it and recognize it. Because what happens if you're not open to failure is you don't catch on to it quickly enough, because you don't admit that you failed. Whereas in our office, our goal is to fail as fast as possible, right? So, if this isn't working, we want to identify it right away, so we can adjust and try something different. And we do that a lot. I'll give one example on that. We spent a lot of time trying to kind of get our clients to call us less, because that was a big hindrance. We noticed in our surveys, there's just lots of client calls coming in. We thought, "What if we made it easier for them to communicate with us?" So, we spent a lot of effort into systems that allowed them to have a portal to communicate with us. Email, phone calls, letters. We allowed them to text us and made it easier for that to happen. We did all this work, and calls didn't go down at all. Okay. What's wrong here? Soon we went back to our clients to kind of asked them as part of the design thinking process, like why are you calling so much? We started looking at and we realized what they're calling is they're afraid of things. They're on workers' compensation. They want to know when their check is coming in, and that's every two weeks. And so, they're calling every day. Check every two weeks, right? Is my check here, as my check here? And we thought, "Well, why don't we just tell them when it's here?" We took the tools we built in that whole project that was something of a failure, and kind of rehabbed them into a system. And now, our clients get automatic notifications of updates in their case. And those calls went down a lot quickly. MARK: Yeah. Interesting. What I hear is, we ... I really like this because we're talking about redesigning the entire delivery system as opposed to, can I get a new computer and some new software and try to be a little more efficient? That this is not throwing a little money and try and create, and there's nothing wrong with creating efficiencies, but what I'm hearing is we're really talking about total redesign and questioning, challenging our own assumptions about how law should be delivered how the legal services should be delivered. I really like that. Can I also have you comment a little bit, I noted in your article you were talking about, and you mentioned this earlier, this 25% is the traditional client base we are all competing over, and you have kind of looked at and talked about collaborative efforts here. Can you kind of explain where you're going with that? JORDAN: Yeah, there's a couple things to say on that. One is, you talked about kind of redesigning it. I like to talk about this concept called reframing, which is a new method of problem solving. Most lawyers, the older model was you have this problem, you apply this solution and it's the solution your dad applied when he was a lawyer, right? And it goes back and back. Now you've got the more innovative attorneys out there that are applying like what different solutions can I have to this problem? Reframing is about taking a step back further than that and saying, "Am I solving the right problem? If you look at in the legal new study in Washington, low income families had on average more than nine legal problems in a given year. Solving those problems doesn't solve anything. You have to step back and say. "What's really going on here?" And really investigate what's happening. It's hard to do that as an attorney. That's one way that collaboration really comes in and is important. You have to bring in outside people to work with things on you. In our office, we have a project manager whose job is just to find ways for us to do things better. She has legal experience and then she's been in our office for a while, but she has no legal training. She's not a paralegal, she is just someone who is in charge of projects. She runs a team that brings in stakeholders from around the office from different departments to try to find better ways to do things, because it's really hard as a lawyer to think of something new. We've gone to law school for three years, we've had internships, we've trained on this old model and to come up with new ideas is cognitively almost impossible in some ways. But if you have someone come in who has no training in this and says, "Wait, why are you doing this?" It gets a lot easier. And so, there's that collaboration. Collaborating with lawyers outside of your community, there is a growing movement of phenomenal attorneys all over this country and out of the country that are doing amazing things. Little things just in their office that can make a big impact if they become more broadly accepted. The nice thing about this is, they're not competitive people. I think those who in this community have realized that a rising tide raises all ships, right? We all work together on this. I've found, I've been traveling around the country a lot over the last year and meeting with people. Everyone I meet with has been phenomenal, and we work together on projects, and we find ways to make all of us have a better relationship with our clients, better services for our clients. We share ideas, we work together on things. In our office we've worked with outside partners too. We have I think five tech companies right now that we're collaborating with. And we're collaborating with Suffolk Laws IT Lab, because of a friend of mine there who's a professor there. So, lawyers don't have all the answers and it helps to have outside people come in. One of the more remarkable experiences I had that kind of led me down this path is about three years ago when I went to a legal hackathon that we did. It was amazing to see all these lawyers come here and present these problems that they saw is really complex problems and have the tech people in the coders that's there say, "Well, that's really easy. Why haven't you done that already?" MARK: I love it. I'm also, as you're aware, a risk guy and something of a tech. When you think about just your own experiences here, are there I guess some tech tools or risk advice that you might share for people thinking about moving in this kind of direction, so that they don't have to reinvent the wheel? JORDAN: Yeah. One thing I actually like to talk to people a lot in this kind of new future model of legal services is trying to commodities legal services. There's a good reason for that. If you look at the legal system, it's a very unique and bizarre market where everything is based on ours. And so, imagine if you went to Amazon and you bought a package and they charged you for how long would take them to mail the package to you, and you may or may not get that package. That's the legal system in a nutshell, and it's because lawyers don't know what their services are worth and that's a problem. And so, when I tell people to look at this, I tell them to try to find ways to commoditize, to really define and market. It's not they're hiring this attorney for their expertise, they're hiring this firm to provide the product that this firm provides. One thing that's really essential for that is having systems in place and definable measurable systems, so that every client comes in and gets service that will be on timelines, that will be on specific things. That's a huge bonus for risk management, because the biggest risk is human error in everything that you do. If you have, in our office with workers compensation, we have a lot of issues that have statute limitations and we might have 10, 20 things at a time on my table easily that have statute of limitations that I need to address, that could be harmful for my client if I don't That's a lot for a human being to manage. We used to have it documented written down multiple places and there was human checks and a lot of room for errors, and that's Bad. Because the more humans touching a system, the more room for error there is. So now, we created actually automated systems for all of that, for all of our kind of regulatory stuff, so that every time a letter comes in that we have to respond to within a certain timeline, it automatically creates tasks in our practice management system which is Cleo. It automatically creates cards on our workflow system which is Trello, which is kind of a visual workflow system. And, it automatically notifies us of all this and creates notifications with deadlines attached to them, so we can see the deadline coming up. This is all automated so that we don't have to worry about, oh, did this person into the wrong date here the wrong date here? Everything's done automatically. There are human checks on that because you don't want to get rid of humans entirely and just trust machines. But it's all automated for us and that allows us to provide a better, more safe system for our clients where they can know that we are on top of everything that comes through us. We do the same for just staying on top of cases. We have technology aided systems for our file review process to go over all of our cases, to make sure we're managing them on a regular timeline. The technology really helps with that. Again, started looking at what are the things we hated doing, and a lot of people said, "Well, all this manual you know, data entry. I really hate doing that."  Thought, but that's an easy thing to automate. I call it being you know tech enabled lawyer. MARK: Yeah. Sort of a final question from myself and I'll give you a second to have any closing thoughts, excuse me. There are a lot of lawyers out there that I have worked with it are what I would describe perhaps it's mid-career or a little bit further beyond, as opposed to the millennials just starting out in so many ways. When you think about all that you're talking about here, are these opportunities really limited to the millennial group? Or, if I'm in my 40s or 50s can I still do this if I'm somebody who's not highly trained with tech and comfortable? Do you have any thoughts about that? Because I do see at times when lawyers just say, "I don't understand any of this." JORDAN: It takes a little more work. Although I know millennials that are not good at this, but I think millennials are a little better poised for this growing up, kind of in this tech generation of being taught to kind of question some of these ways the legal profession has worked before. But my boss is in his 40s or 50s, I can't remember which for, and he does this. What it takes is not necessarily having all the skills to do it, but having the knowledge to say, "I need to do something differently. What can I do differently?" And then going out find people because at the end of the day, you don't have to be the expert on all these things. There are some who disagree with me on this, but I don't think every lawyer should learn how to code. I don't think lawyers need to have all these skills. They just need to have a baseline so that they can get into a situation and know who they need to talk to, and how to find the experts. So, we have a big data analytics project in our office that we've been working on for a while. It's been kind of a pipe dream of mine. I was lucky enough to make some friends at Suffolk who I of course couldn't do all the coding and build the algorithms for this, but they did, they could. They said, "Well, can we do this as part of our class? As part of our education for our students.?" And I was of course happy to say yes, you want to do my work for me? That's a pretty good deal. And we've kind of built in that partnership, just because they have the skills that I don't have. We have people in our office whose jobs is just working with tech and working with client relationships, things that are not legal, because those are the things we don't know. I'd say a simple analogy that I think attorneys will understand a little better is, how many of you run your own marketing campaigns versus hire someone to consult with you on marketing a little bit? Tech is no different. Or, how many of you have accountants that you go to, right? Tech is no different than that. It seems different because it's scary and it's new, and I understand that fear. But at the end of the day, if you can hire an accountant, you can hire a tech expert to come in and help you. If they can't demonstrate the value to you, then it's not the right expert. MARK: That's an important takeaway for me. Because I do think lots of lawyers that have not quite grown up in the way that my own [inaudible 00:23:22] and I'm in my late 50s now. In terms of our children's generation, computers are a very different thing. I do feel, lawyers, we are taught to problem solve and to be creative, some of us anyway. To have the ability to take the leap of faith, you don't have to be a computer whiz kid to do this stuff. It's about having the idea, that's what I'm hearing, and then finding the right people to help you make that idea a reality through testing and talking to your clients. But I like that, it's a hopeful thing to me. Do you have any final comments you'd like to share before we wrap up? JORDAN: I don't think I said it yet, but there's one other thing that I think is important to this as well. MARK: Yes, please. JORDAN: Is having a culture. Because sometimes I meet attorneys and one attorney will say, "Yeah, I really love this idea, but I don't know how to convince the other partners in my office." Or, "I don't think my staff would get on board with this." MARK: Real good point. JORDAN: I mentioned earlier, you have to demonstrate the value to people. If you can't go to them and say, "Here's the time you're saving. Here's the value you're getting out of this product, you're never going to get buy in." People always ask me like how do I convince people to do this. Don't convince anyone. Because if you're convincing, you're starting off on the wrong foot. Show them the value. Build a culture around this where people can communicate with each other and work together on things, so that you see the issues as they arise. And if you have to be convincing people rather than them coming it because they see the value of it, then it's not going to work. It takes buy in from team. One really helpful way to do that is go out to them and it really do, just ask them like, "What don't you like? What do you wish you didn't have to do every day? What do you wish was easier for you? How can I make that happen?" Because if you get that kind of buy in or people feel ownership of it, they really take to it and they really get excited about it. We have the first of our core values, although I wouldn't say that any is more important than others is being creative, innovative and adaptable. That's really important in client service. Because if you're going to be asked, "Why should this client hire you instead of the other 15 firms in there that do the exact same type of law?" I would like to tell my clients, "Everyone else cares, everyone else does these things, but I'm going to provide a team of creative, innovative adaptive people who are going to invent new ways to better serve you." MARK: Yeah, that's an important point. Thank you for sharing that. We are out of time. I would like to say thanks to Jordan. It really has been a pleasure. I've enjoyed our conversation today. To our listeners, I hope you found something of value out of the conversation. If in future any of you have any ideas for a topic or if you have questions or concerns you'd like to see addressed in one of these podcasts, please don't hesitate to reach out to me at mbass@alpsnet.com. Thanks for listening. Bye bye. JORDAN: Thanks so much. Jordan L. Couch is an attorney and cultural ambassador at Palace Law practicing plaintiff's workers' compensation and PI litigation. He's been called a legal futurist for the work he does both in and out of the office seeking out new ways to build a more modern, client-centric law practice. Contact him at jordan@palacelaw.com or on social media @jordanlcouch.

If you are not already aware, ALPS proudly partners with Clio, the easy-to-use cloud-based law practice management software company with over 150,000 subscribing lawyers.  ALPS policyholders enjoy a 10% lifetime discount on their Clio subscription. We are also lucky to work with Clio to better understand where legal tech is heading and how we can leverage these advancements as they relate to risk management. ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte connected with Clio's Content Strategist Teresa Matich and Lawyer-in-Residence Joshua Lenon to elaborate on Teresa's recent blog, 10 Predictions for the Next 10 Years of Legal Tech. The predictions were gathered via Clio Advocates, an online community of legal professionals, legal tech visionaries, and Clio team members. The discussion unearthed some of their most interesting findings. Joshua also weighed in on why lawyers should innovate their practices to avoid risk rather than maintaining the status quo out of fear of the unknown. Joshua also discussed how Clio is helping the legal community innovate intelligently through its million dollar development fund. ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. Transcript: MARK: Welcome to another episode of ALPS in Brief, the ALPS risk management podcast. We're coming to you from the ALPS home office in the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the ALPS risk manager, and I have the pleasure of sitting down today with Teresa Matich and Joshua Lenon, both with Clio, a company that delivers cloud-based practice management technologies to lawyers worldwide. Teresa, Joshua, welcome. It's a pleasure. Before we jump into the conversation we're about to have, can you just take a few brief moments and tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves? TERESA: Sure. I'm Teresa Matich. I'm a content strategist at Clio, and I manage the Clio blog, where we write about legal technology and the business of law for law firms of all types. JOSHUA: I'm Joshua Lenon. I'm the lawyer in residence at Clio. I provide legal scholarship and subject matter expertise to our teams throughout Clio, including Teresa's great blog. MARK: That is a good blog, I'll give you that. I enjoy it, and that's really what sort of prompted this podcast idea. It's been a little while, a week or so here, but you came up with the top ten legal predictions for the next 10 years, and that was just one of your blog posts. I thought that was very, very interesting. Normally when you see these predictions for what's going to happen, it's some lawyer sitting down or some tech person sitting down, but this really came out of the advocate community, as I understand it. Can you tell us a little bit about the Clio advocates community, talk about how the predictions were collected, and just tell us a little bit about the process? TERESA: Sure. We wanted to look at predictions for legal tech over the next 10 years, because it's actually Clio's 10th anniversary this year. 10 years ago, Jack and Ryan set out to build Clio and today Clio is the most powerful and popular cloud-based practice management platform available with 150,000 users in 90 countries. A big part of Clio's success has been the people who use Clio, so we thought it would be fitting to ask them what their predictions are for the next 10 years. As you mentioned, the post came out of a discussion in Clio's advocates community, which is the official Clio community where customers can go to discuss legal topics, share their expertise, get advice, and just engage with each other and build that community. Anyone who wants to join can learn more. You can join at advocates.com/join/advocates. There was discussion going on. We asked what their predictions were for the next 10 years, and we picked some of the most popular ones for this blog post. MARK: Nice. When you look at this, in terms of popular ... What surprised you the most about what you found? TERESA: There were a few things. The one thing that surprised me in the discussion was how many people predicted that paperless law firms were going to be a big thing in the next 10 years. MARK: Mm-hmm (affirmative). TERESA: Paperless is a big thing for a lot of law firms now, and I guess I was surprised to see so many law firms seeing that trend continuing and seeing law firms not just be mostly paperless but entirely paperless in the next 10 years. The second thing, along similar lines, is one person's prediction that traditional offices would disappear entirely, and that jurisdictional issues would go away, and lawyers would work across state lines with lawyers in other jurisdictions. Whether you got a mobile practice or you're working from home or you're using a shared workspace, that trend is only going to continue, which does make a little bit of sense. MARK: Yeah. TERESA: Office overhead is expensive, and then the third thing was Jordan Couch's prediction that lawyers will practice more like doctors, which was a really interesting way to frame it. In his view, artificial intelligence and automation will not threaten the jobs of lawyers by passing off more routine tasks to apps and services and other legal professionals. Lawyers, like surgeons, are going to be able to focus more on their craft and more on practicing law, which is what most of them want to do in the first place. If you've got a platform like Clio where you can log time with just a few clicks, communicate with your clients securely, and look at reports and data to see how your firm can improve, you're going to much better off than if you're trying to do those things all on your own without the right tool. MARK: It's interesting, and I agree with some of these predictions, just in terms of our own experience, and I do a lot of consulting over the years with apps and just in terms of visiting with firms around the country, but we are seeing more and more, in terms of just supporting what the advocates are saying, lawyers are moving into the, if you will, virtual space or virtual practice space. I see more telecommuting. I do see an increased pace of movement to the cloud, in terms of dropping off the paper, kind of, side here with all of that. It's been fun. It's interesting. I'm the risk guy, as you're well aware, and work with the malpractice insurance carrier. This is our world. Thinking about the advocate community, the kinds of things you're seeing and learning, what do you think we should be educating our policyholders about? Do you have any thoughts on that one? JOSHUA: I do think risk always is a factor when it comes to running any type of business, not just a law firm, but lawyers actually have a phenomenal resource that they're under-utilizing when it comes to managing, measuring, and preparing for risk, and that is their professional liability insurers. Too many lawyers don't innovate because they think their liability insurer will say no, when in fact, what liability insurers in my experience look for is a bit of collaboration, a little two-way communication, such that they can prepare alongside the law firms for these upcoming changes. Lawyers who want to innovate should, but they should be reaching out to their liability insurers and making sure that everybody's on the same page moving forward. In fact, they can probably get some great advice from their insurers on what's worked for other firms, and better approaches towards managing that risk if there is a factor in their expense. MARK: Again, I agree. I'm getting more and more these calls and emails coming in, talking about, "Is it safe to be in the cloud? I'd kind of like to go here, but we're afraid that you as our insurer will say, 'Oh, no. That's too risky.'" My response is, I don't think you guys can get to the cloud fast enough. Part of my challenge is, in trying to educate, say, when you think about moving to the cloud, we need to ... It's not the cloud, if you will, it's how we interact with the cloud, and so there's an opportunity for me to do some training and educating in terms of how to use it more responsibly. As I've looked at your site and we have a partnership here in terms of Clio and ALPS, and our insurance, do get some discounts in working with you folks, and so we're well aware of what you do. I've been very interested in your million dollar Clio development fund. Can you tell our listeners a bit more about what this fund is about? How do you envision this helping current and future Clio subscribers, and maybe tell us a little bit about what's already being funded? JOSHUA: Thanks, Mark. The developer fund is an experiment, but one that we're very excited about. We know that there's no one way to practice law. In fact, our advocates community, the feedback loops that we have via our support team, all tell us of lawyers having, sometimes, very highly specialized needs when it comes to their technology. While Clio is a great platform and highly customizable, it doesn't have, necessarily, every tool for every niche practice out there. We've been very fortunate to leverage cloud technology to create a platform where law firms can pick their favorite tools to meet their needs and specifications, and plug them into Clio, such that information syncs back and forth, it reduces transcription error, it increases responsiveness, and generally prevents a lot of the different types of complaints that we see coming towards lawyers when it comes to juggling a whole bunch of different data silos separately. When it comes to the developer fund, we know that it's very difficult for tools that target niche practices or niche functions within those practices, to really get up and running fast enough to be sustainable, so our developer fund is one way of us taking our success and investing in these third party tools, such that they're creating these highly specialized components that law firms can plug in. For example, if you are an immigration firm and really need a strong workflow for soliciting family information or business information and populating those government forms quickly on behalf of your clients, we have several tools that now plug into Clio and just do that for you. Clio will handle your time and billing, your secure communications with those clients, but this plugin tool will handle the forms for you, and between the two, you have an entire immigration practice basically in the palm of your hand on your mobile phone. If you are an IP attorney, you can plug in a tool like Alt Legal and that will handle your patent documenting for you, which is, again, a highly specialized workflow that Clio would love to build, but it only represents a portion of the 150,000 lawyers that we service, so we have to pick and choose, but we can devote things like our developer fund to get massive scale and massive functionality for lawyers around the world with a cooperative environment. MARK: What I hear, and what I really like about this, is, again, talking with our insureds over the past five to eight years as they look at this possibility of moving into the cloud. There've been all kinds of roadblocks that I hear, and what you're saying is, we're now in front of this. We are removing the roadblocks so that we can make the transition for this, particularly what I ... In terms of a lot of our insureds, the solo, small firm lawyers, make this transition to the cloud very smooth and make them far more productive. I just think this is a fantastic approach. Very exciting things happening. That's just fantastic. We're about running out of time, here. To wrap up, can I have each of you just share a final thought in terms of encouraging, why is it important for legal professionals to at least understand, if not move forward and embrace technology at the level of the like of which Clio offers, that kind of thing? What are your thoughts, final closing thought? TERESA: Sure. First, I would say that knowing the benefits and risks of technology is fast-becoming a necessity, not a nice-to-have. 31 states have already adopted comment eight on the ABA's model rule for professional conduct, rule 1.1, and that states that law firms must stay abreast of changes in the law and its practice, including the benefits and risks associated with technology. If you're not using technology to serve your clients better or if you're not aware of the risks that come with technology, it's really important to get educated. The Clio blog covers these topics regularly and you can subscribe to that at clio.com/blog. We put out a regular digest with articles. The second thing I would say is that technology can do a lot to help you practice more efficiently and help your clients better and focus more on the practice of the law. As Jordan said, lawyers who leverage technology are going to have more of an opportunity to focus on what they got into law to do in the first place. JOSHUA: I think that it's only going to get better from here. That's one of the exciting things about legal technology, is I think we're at an inflection point, where better and better tools will come into the hands of lawyers, giving better and better service to their clients, and getting in on the ground floor of that is a market opportunity for the law firms out there. MARK: Yeah, yeah. You know, may I just throw one other question at you, based on a conversation I had actually a little bit earlier this morning with another one of our insureds. I would just be curious in terms of the thoughts of either of you on this one. I'm going to restate it, but, this comes up quite a bit in my world. Mark, I'm thinking about looking at a cloud product, whether it's just file storage to a full practice management solution, such as Clio, but my concern is, if I start to let go of my data, I'm concerned about the security of all of that. I am now out of control. What would your response be to someone that says, "I'm just having a little trouble letting go." Can you speak to just data security overall in a solution like Clio versus just keeping everything local? JOSHUA: You got it. First of all, dollar per dollar, you get more security moving to a reputable cloud provider than you can ever provide inside of your office, things like 24/7 supervision of the technology are things that Clio provides that a lawyer just can't do in a smaller boutique firm. There's, unfortunately, just not enough dollars to cover that type of security coverage, so moving to the cloud is a great way to get more for your money, but you do have to pick a reputable provider. One way to find out if somebody's a reputable provider, is to look at their transparency when it comes to their security preparations, their willingness to answer your questions, and, quite frankly, their reputation amongst a lot of your peers. Clio, for example, has a public report on our status for how long we've been up, for the last ... I think it goes back an entire year now, the current report, and for the last three months, for example, I can tell you that Clio has been down a total of three minutes over those three months. That's the type of transparency we provide. We also provide third party security audits that are done on either and hourly or daily basis, depending on which of the three reports you look at. Those are available to the public as well, so you can always see how we're doing and whether or not we're leading the market in security, or lagging behind. Our goal is to always be leading. MARK: Yeah, yeah. JOSHUA: Yeah, and because of that, then you can take a look and see, not only are we being transparent, but then, what's our reputational effect? Our partnership with ALPS, for example, is one metric that a firm could look at to see that, not only are we being transparent, but we're also being vetted by people who are knowledgeable in the business, and that deem us to be a good bet. MARK: I appreciate you sharing that, Joshua. I do think it's important for our listeners to hear directly, if you will, from the horse's mouth, the answer to the question, so thank you for taking the time for that, and boy, I couldn't agree more with you. It's the same message I try to preach, but again, sometimes hearing it from the provider themselves, for themselves, is an important thing. That's about all the time we have today. Teresa, Joshua, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure, and for our listeners, I hope you found something of value and interest today out of this conversation. If, in future, you have any ideas for topics or questions or concerns you'd like to see addressed in one of these podcasts, please don't hesitate to reach out to me at mbass@alpsnet.com. Thanks again, thanks for listening. Have a good one, folks. Bye bye.   Joshua Lenon is an attorney admitted to the New York Bar.  He studied law at St. Louis University School of Law, obtaining a Juris Doctorate and a Certificate in International and Comparative Law. Joshua has since helped legal practitioners improve their services, working for Thomson Reuters' publishing departments in both the United States and Canada. Joshua currently serves as Lawyer-in-Residence for Clio, providing legal scholarship and research skills to the leading cloud-based practice management platform from Vancouver, Canada. He's been a guest lecturer for movements like legal hacking and legal technology at schools like MIT, Suffolk Law, and Vanderbilt, as well as before organizations like ReinventLaw and the ABA Law Practice Futures Initiative.   Teresa Matich manages the Clio Blog, where she writes about legal technology and the business of law for legal professionals at firms of all sizes. She has previously worked as a reporter in the financial sector, and prior to that, she worked as an office clerk at a Vancouver real estate law firm.  

Jordan Couch, Attorney and Cultural Ambassador at Palace Law shares his Darwin talk with the Evolve Law podcast listeners. For the latest topics, trends and tech in the legal industry, subscribe to the Evolve Law Podcast: A Catalyst for Legal Innovation. Listen as legal experts and leaders share insights about the legal industry. For more information, questions, or suggestions about our podcast feel free to email us at info@evolvelawnow.com Links and Resources from this Episode For additional information of this episode go to evolvelawnow.com/show Connect with Jordan http://www.palacelaw.com/attorneys https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanlcouch https://twitter.com/jordanlcouch   Evolve your legal practice with technology Access the Legal Tech Toolkit Show Notes A new definition of lawyer 0:22 Practical tips to become a legal inventor - 1:36 How experimentation and failure can help your career, not end it - 4:03 Review and Subscribe If you like what you hear please leave a review by clicking here Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite player to get the latest episodes. Click here to subscribe with iTunes Click here to subscribe with Stitcher Click here to subscribe with RSS