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In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

Connect with Barry Ratzlaff online in the following places:Instagram: @ratzlaffbarryHosted: Andrew Bracewell @everydayamazingpodcastProduced/Edited: Justin Hawkes @Hawkes21Full Transcription of this Interview:Andrew Bracewell: This is the podcast that finds the most elusive people the everyday amazing kind that you know nothing about. I'm hunting these people down and exposing their beauty to the world. I'm Andrew Bracewell and this is every day. Amazing. Barry Ratzlaff: Get off social media. Stop looking at Instagram pictures of people who have perfect bodies and are purveying these perfect lives because that is such a negative thing for your brain.Andrew Bracewell: Happy New Year, everybody. I'm grinning ear to ear because today's guest is one of the reasons I get up in the morning literally. But more on that later, when something is delicious, I mean really delicious. I will often attempt to describe it by saying It's like two tiny humans are having sex in my mouth. Whether or not the metaphor is accurate, my excitement in the moment is effectively communicated, and the person to whom I am speaking knows why I'm losing my mind. That's how I feel about today's guest, but we're not going to eat him or have sex with them. We're going to talk to him because in addition to the fact that he's highly intelligent, he has helped countless people change their lives by shaping the way they view their nutrition, fitness and overall health, including me. Barry Rats Laugh is a gift to mankind. But before I let him speak, I'll give you a short synopsis of what he does in some of his life accomplishments. Together with his wife, Janna, they own proactive transformations, a boutique health and fitness facility operated on their property in the Fraser Valley, their mantra. Helping people achieve their best body in a healthy way. Some of Barry's certifications and accomplishments include a C E certified personal trainer. He's an A C E certified health coach. He's certified in fitness and sports, nutrition certified and overuse, injuries and rehabilitation certified in low back disorders. In 1999 Barry was the body for life champion. In 2003 he was the Ice Atari best body champion in 2000 Very trained The Body for Life, Canadian champion, and in 2001 he trained the body for life. First runner up. That is quite the pedigree, Barry, Welcome to the show.Barry Ratzlaff: Thanks, Andrew. Good to be here.Andrew Bracewell: How does that sound? Hearing all of that that read out. Are you amazed by yourself? Just sell the copilot B s. Well, it's difficult to hear positive things about ourselves. It is. It is. So that is actually quite the ah, the list. And I want to start by asking you a little bit about your journey into the health and fitness industry and how it came to be that you're in the place you're in today.Barry Ratzlaff: Well, I was, uh I'm also a ordained minister. He But you know that. And I spent a lot of time in the church.Andrew Bracewell: You marry and bury people I didBarry Ratzlaff: for a long time. I am married and buried. I married your ah, one of your associates. Yeah. So I did that for a long time. And that lifestyle is not a healthy one. Working with kids. I was youth pastor. I worked with, uh, mostly junior high and some senior high kids. I did it for 15 years, and through the course of those 15 years, we eat a lot of doughnuts and you drink a lot of pop and you have a lot of late nights with Doritos on buses heading to youth events. And it's it's it's a gong show, physically like you're just getting fatter and fatter and more and more tired. And you just keep yourself going with sugar.Andrew Bracewell: This was like eighties and nineties orBarry Ratzlaff: Ah, yeah. I graduated from Bible school in 91 my first church was up north in Fort McMurray in 92 0 wow. I didn't know for a fact or Mac. Two and 1/2 years. Yeah, my personal hell. ButAndrew Bracewell: I have more on that later. Yes, exactly. TheBarry Ratzlaff: place where you could be nothing other than Pastor Bury. All right. It was awful. Anyway, so, uh, through the course of the of my pastor eight years, I just got more and more out of shape when I had a few attempts at getting into shape over the period of time where I would and I didn't know much. I've been lifting admitting the gym since I was 13 yearsAndrew Bracewell: old. Yeah. So you were a child athlete, right? Early? Yeah. I read about these kindBarry Ratzlaff: of won all the athlete of the year awards through elementary and high school. A big wrestler back in the day. And when the B C championships got a scholarship sf you which I turned down, I didn't want to wrestle anymore. It was just It was misery, like physically punishing that I enjoyed the physical punishment. But you're always dieting. You're always restricting your nutrition to keep your weight class right. It's just like boxing. You're constantly moving, moving down away class, trying to be competitive. And so I just did that for all of my high school years and said, I'm kind of done with this now I just want to move on. Where was I going with that? It was competitive athlete. All through those yearsAndrew Bracewell: you're in Fort Mac and for Mr Berry, And the original question was, How did you journey out of the Pastor Berry mode into?Barry Ratzlaff: So it's your today, tried a few times, get to get into shape, And it was always without any nutritional knowledge. And back in the day, like in the nineties, there wasn't a lot of you walk into a health food store. You walk into a bookstore, you didn't see a lot of good information about how to do this. The Body for Life book hadn't come out yet, which was really the very first user friendly book that came out. The first system don't want Hey, I could do this to Before that. It was like Arnold's encyclopedia bodybuilding, right?Andrew Bracewell: But that was only good for the guys. The gym rats who were who were living that lightBarry Ratzlaff: was only good for them. And also bodybuilding, weightlifting resistance training at that time and before was considered an underground activity that was not worth anything and set for meatheads. So if you were Oh, yeah, okay, if you're a linebacker for a football team or you want to be a big, thick, no neck wrestler, then you go to the gym and pump iron. But everyone else in the world should really avoid it because it's dangerous. It'll hurt your joints. It'll make you a meathead. Women will get huge and muscular and disgusting if they lift weights. So that was the common knowledge or the common wisdom of the day. And it was completely wrong, which we know now because everybody's getting into it. But back then, that's how it was. And so, uh, I had made attempts to get into shape. I remember didn't want a 98. My my local gym, too, burnt down shortly after. It wasn't my fault, but he didn't hurt down shortly after it had a get in shape contest. And I'm like, Good Lord, I'm gonna do this because I want Oh, they had a very nominal price. Whatever it was like one month, three membership in a egg of grapes. Suddenly it was just It was really dismal. But I was youth pastor. So if you waved anything in front of me, I'd be gone for it. Like Holy crap, I could win grapes. I'm doing this. And so I I did that and I starved myself down to this. But £215 not a really impressive look. Kind of soft and flat because I was starving for three months.Andrew Bracewell: It should be noted, we need to give people perspective on what, 250lb? Because 250lb for you, Junior 15 215lb for you is actually kind of small.Barry Ratzlaff: Oh, I was a bone rack. Yeah,Andrew Bracewell: because you've walked around before At what? To 265 to 270Barry Ratzlaff: today. Walked around to 265.Andrew Bracewell: And when you are a lean, mean machine, you've been to 235 to 240. 240? Yeah. So to 215 is actually tinyBarry Ratzlaff: way underweight for me. Yeah, So I in a classic fashion which so many people are familiar with, I dyed it down to this specific weight that I thought I should get to it. Not even about anything about body composition, how much muscle I had or just get down to this. Wait. How's how late can I get and quickly snap a picture before I lose my freaking mind? And as quickly as the pictures done, get me in the car and I'm going to in W for, like, five team burgers because I want to get the party started. And so I did that, and so literally IAndrew Bracewell: was actually teen burgers. Did you actually do that?Barry Ratzlaff: I was straight to in w. Had hadAndrew Bracewell: not Big Mac's, not Cooper'sBarry Ratzlaff: to team burgers to teen burgers. And awesome, I think onion rings. That's amazing. A coke it was in. SoAndrew Bracewell: a cool 2500 calories. So this this isBarry Ratzlaff: and this could be will be segueing into this later. But that that waas, that's the microcosm of everyone's diet experience, which is I'm gonna I'm gonna be disciplined, and I'm gonna totally just beat my body and make it my slave and I'm gonna be fantastic and just don't get to my goal and I will fall apart because it's completely unsustainable. And once it's like Frank the Tank and old school, once the beer hits his lips,Andrew Bracewell: it's so good. It's so good. Next thing he'sBarry Ratzlaff: streaking down looks, orders the quad. That's that's most people's that experience, which is ice restrict myself. And then I lose my freakin mind through a season like we just came through. How many times did I hear from people? You know what? I'm just gonna I'm January 1. I'm gonna be back on the wagon. You'll see. For now, I'm eating this entire tray of parties Chocolates. It's like, Okay, I get it.Andrew Bracewell: The highs and lows of New Year's resolutions. Yeah. So backBarry Ratzlaff: to the story, which is I. I won that contest, got my bag of grapes in my free month, and within six months I was back up to 60 to 70. Within 10 months, I was at 2 80 So I just my body. So your body is a very intelligent machine. It knows exactly what it shouldn't shouldn't do. And when you restrict it in a way that's very aggressive. It is lying and wait just like a tiger to pounce on. You mean metabolically and take you back up that that ladder is faster. They canAndrew Bracewell: because it's been starved. And so now it wants to. It'sBarry Ratzlaff: an evolutionary reality that our bodies are designed not to do that. They're not designed to be restricted like that. They will fight back. They fight back with a vengeance. And when they fight back, they come back in a way that we had. You think you feel good again like Oh, yeah, this is fantastic. I do love doughnuts and pasta and breads and entire loaves of bread and one sitting.Andrew Bracewell: This is fantastic.Barry Ratzlaff: But you don't realize within a very short period of time you put on 2030 £40 I'm back to where I started. So I was back to where it started and a little more right and that you hear that story again and again. So I gained all the weight back and a little extra because your body is defending itself. It's just doing what supposed to do. So then I was reading. That year was 98 United States had the body for life conscious back then was called body of work. Bill Phillips, his brother Shawn Phillips. They put this out? Yes. Um, experimental Applied Sciences had this contest out and I was looking through magazines. Saw the article. I went, Ah, I want to do it so bad. But I can't. It's only American citizens because he was giving away a Lamborghini. Oh, so it was only us start $250,000 car and it was this incredible thing. And if you've gotten, if you want, you got to be part of a movie. He was making a movie called Body of Work and he flew Flee down too. Colorado. And it was just crazy. So I wanted to do that, But it wasn't available to Canadians. So the next year 99 I hear from my gym manager a Did you hear that body body for body of work is now available to Canadian soon a Canadian version and I went okay. It is game on, but I didn't have the knowledge to do it, so I thought, OK, on. I've been down to 2 15 before. I'm gonna go hard again So for about two weeks, I started doing the same process. Restrictive nutrition and exercise up the ying yang just overkill. Just cardio, cardio, cardio and, you know, lifting weights and just just not really knowing exactly how it all works. But just throwing as much as I could against my body to see what I couldAndrew Bracewell: publish. Were you in competition like you started immediately in competitionBarry Ratzlaff: as soon as they were playing around with your body to see what you don't know, I wanted to jump right in because all you had to do was take a picture with him with a newspaper. Young people familiar with thisAndrew Bracewell: back in the day. That's what youBarry Ratzlaff: did. You did. You see, it's time stamped. Yeah, and ah, And long as it was a three month window, you could you just start and finish?Andrew Bracewell: It was a body mass index. Was it or was a fat loss, orBarry Ratzlaff: what were they preferred that you do scale weight and body mass index and you send that in and then they would be able to judge from your photos if you were telling the truth or not. If you were just trying to take them for a ride. And so I started, and I realized two weeks in. This is not going well, like I'm not gonna I really want to win this because for me, as a youth pastor, the prize was $10,000 plus a trip to Maui. Let's two year sponsorship.Andrew Bracewell: It's like 35% of your years withBarry Ratzlaff: $3000 ring and a $5000 your package. It was crazy was about $35,000 worth of stuff all together, which for a youth passed.Andrew Bracewell: That's a year. So I'm like, My God, I haveBarry Ratzlaff: to win this! And in my brain, you said you can't win. But my brains always been the kind of Brandon goes. Course I can. I just have to figure this out. So I decided I went around to local gyms, and there's only a few of the time V. R. C. There was Cedar Park Fitness Center, which was Gators after the fact. And then there was, you know,Andrew Bracewell: there are worlds andBarry Ratzlaff: there was, but this world's was long gone, you know? Where the Savoy? Yeah, the world's Jim. Yeah, And what they rose Gold's gym actually, that's right. Yes. Yeah. I was a member of their little while.Andrew Bracewell: That was the real monkey cage.Barry Ratzlaff: It was Don Schultz said that place. And it was Yeah, it was like the guys who consider themselves real lifters. There's chocolate replacing the raps and everything. Like Ruin was grunting and yeah, just a testosterone house, which I kind of like, but they didn't last. They didn't Didn't make money. So So I went around to the gyms that were in the area, and I walked in the gym and I'd look around. I'd pay, though, drop in fee. And I just look and go. Who here is amazing? Like, who looks fantastic. And I pick him up and I'd wait from the finish, their work out. I don't interrupt your workout, and I'd sit by the front door if they had a juice party. But wait there. And I asked him, Can I? And I ask you a few questions and buy you a drink, and they're like, Yeah, for sure. They'd sit down, and so I just asked them. So how did you do this? You look amazing. Like what? What's your routine? What's your nutrition and they'd start telling me they they didn't. Back then, no one was guarding secrets and there was no personal trainers in town.Andrew Bracewell: And no one's asking people those questions back then. Either know today you'd probably get a bit of a guarded response because everybody's doing it. No one wants to reveal, soBarry Ratzlaff: you'd get a little bit of a reference to a website or to an instagram account. Or sure, Do you think this guy's June or I'm doing F 45 Mark Wahlberg?Andrew Bracewell: It is my peach plan. Back off. Yeah, SoBarry Ratzlaff: I saw Mark Wahlberg humping of 45 today. And as soon as I saw him pumping, I said, He's an investor. Oh, and then I saw Yesterday another one comes up on my instagram Gap. Mark Wahlberg, investor and going for investors. Sure, that's last flogging that thing likeAndrew Bracewell: a naked dolphin anyway. But did you know that all dolphins turn? You've never seen that? It's quite the sight. Do you swing it by the tail of the head? How do you do that? Well, we can show you later. That's a live demo. Gonna get letters about cruelty to dolphin. Yeah, keep going very just going.Barry Ratzlaff: I love the dolphins. Love the war when Dan Marino was at the helm, That's okay. So I went to three or four places, talk to three or four guys that I thought were in incredible shape. And then I had one guy in my in my gym Gators Jim. Brian Wong was his name. He was this this Ah, Asian bodybuilder guy. And he was just freaking out A real like, chiseled and just huge. And every time I saw him, I went has got the craziest body like it's crazy. So I talked to him and he kind of laid it out for me. Okay, Okay. All right. And I kind of put it together, But I still was defaulting to my old habits. I couldn't help it. It's like No, no wisdom dictates. Restrict your calories, do lots of activity. That's how it works. So I kept going down that path, starving your body water, working right, So not taking into account any of the clerk balances and intake and, you know, it was crazy. So I didn't remember this date. This changed my life. In essence, this is what set me on a new path of a new career I worked out. It was probably three weeks into the process, and I worked out worked up the way I always do, just also the wall prank, that just sweating till I was dizzy. I could hardly stand up, had no energy, left my body and I went to the juice bar. They're Gators. Jim and I sat down and Brian was there. He had been watching me work out, and he talked to me earlier a couple weeks earlier or a week earlier. And he's so he sat beside me. He goes, Hey, very you're doing the, ah, the body of work contest, right? That's it. Yeah. Hey, guys, how's it going? Said I think I'm doing pretty good, but I don't totally know. I feel just dizzy all the time and weird, and I've told the story many times and the Gators gym at that time. They sold these oatmeal cookies that were literally the size of a dinner plate, like they were huge, probably 800 calorie cookie. He reaches across and he holds it up to the owner, says, Put it on. My tab passes to me and he goes eat that. I said, You're kiddingAndrew Bracewell: me. I can't eat that. He goes. How manyBarry Ratzlaff: calories do you think he just burned in your workout? I watched you. I said, I don't know. He goes. You're probably 800 to 1000 The way you train. I want 1/2 Crazy said, Eat that. You gotta start feeding this system the system and I want. Really? So I ate the cookie, sat there. He made me eat it, didn't give me any pause, ate the cookie and went home feeling just wow. Amazing. Then I started understand all the things that I'd learn from these people that I talk to you, that there's a system that your body wants to subscribe to it and it works. And you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. People always say you can't do it. Same time I did. No steroids, no major products. I gained almost £20 of muscle and lost £50 of fat in a 14 week period. It was insane. I was being accused by guys. Watch me going. You're on juice, man. Oh, yeah. He's old juiced up here. I'm talking about me behind my back. Well, he's old. You still man, like No, not eating like a savage and training intelligently.Andrew Bracewell: Wow. So that was the beginning of your health. Fitness journey career. You eventually dropped the pastor thing. We don't have to get into the specifics of what you did there. But what year did you all of a sudden say Okay, Barry, Rats laugh, and it should be noted. Janet does this with you. Your wife? Janet. When did you say we are fitness trainers or health coaches or whatever? You call yourself a the time. Was that 2001 too?Barry Ratzlaff: S o I received. The prize is beginning of 2000. And as soon as I got home from Hawaii, they had a publication in the Muscle and Fitness magazine or the whatever the GS publication WAAS and Ah, my phone started to ring because they just they allAndrew Bracewell: theBarry Ratzlaff: published was named not phone numbers and stuff and contact info. But I started getting calls from all over the world. I'd be sleeping too. Am I get a phone call from New Zealand?Andrew Bracewell: I might have read your article that somebody like you look fantastic. Sort of. You know, it's It's a different top. There's times where and what time. So I too am a bit sorry, man, I didn't mean to do that. Okay? Can you just give me a few tips? Three chips quickly. OK, I'll tellBarry Ratzlaff: you what I did. And they stood, The phone started ringing, and I started having coffee with guys. And it happened, Maur and more and more. And so, Genesis, you need to start. You're taking a lot of time out of your scheduling. This is operating money. Sure. And I'm a youth pastor. Right? The whole idea is service for nothing. Like your life is worthless. Give it to the Lord and you may or may not get something back. We'll see. We'llAndrew Bracewell: rewards are eternal. They are. When you see the crown that you're gonna get, you'll be so excited. Yeah, but I've never worn a crown. I know, but you're gonna love Oh, my God. I love you so much. You put language to things that are in my head all the time. Just do it so much better than me. Well, there you go. SoBarry Ratzlaff: the phone was ringing. I was going out with people for coffees, and I was basically giving them my system and not charging. And then I started charging little money for it. And the first time I charge somebody, I felt so guilty. I think I charged him 50 bucks for, like, an hour and 1/2 and he just There you go the next time. And did I tried for 100? Yeah. There you go. And then I tried for 1 50 Yeah, absolutely. Totally worth it. You know, like, Okay, this is stupid. I have to I have to get certified as a trainer, so I can do this for real and charge these people for real. And so yeah. So the Jan and I decided we put our heads together, said, Let's just get certified and get her personal train certificates. And we did that. And we kind of launched while I was still a youth pastor. But knowing that things were changing in my life, I've been a youth pastor for a long time, and my energy and will to keep up and contend with kids was was kind of coming to a close, and, ah, and then the church I was part of her. That time had a big shake up in it. You know, the leader wasAndrew Bracewell: kind ofBarry Ratzlaff: going down the signs and wonders trail of kind of kookiness. And I just wanted to get out so bad. And ah, and then all the stars align. I said, You know what? I'm done the Remember the day this is this is gonna off topic, But you gotta edit this out.Andrew Bracewell: We're not in Italy on go. Yeah.Barry Ratzlaff: So I got a phone call I had worked at the at this church that I was in for eight years. I had never had a meeting with an elder. Not once, because I just did what I supposed to do. And I had an amazing youth group, a big team of volunteers. That was awesome. We had a great thing going, so no one ever bug me. They said not Leave him alone. He's doing great. Kids love him. The staff love him. It's great. I got a phone call.Andrew Bracewell: Hey. Yeah, Yeah. Berry. Yeah, this is Dave here. Ah, from the oldest board would load up a coffee with you just to discuss a few things to see howBarry Ratzlaff: your ministries going. His voice is cracking. I'm going. You're such aAndrew Bracewell: piece of shit. You You're just I know exactly.Barry Ratzlaff: I don't know exactly where he's gonna go. I knew that what I was because I had been teaching on a certain thing. Brian McLaren. A new tank. Yeah, that stuff called wind. And they're all offendedAndrew Bracewell: that there is no such thing as a new dime crystal. It's awful. So IBarry Ratzlaff: went to the meeting with the elders with my resignation letter in my pocket, walked into Tim Hortons. There they were, these two guys looking pretty nervous. They thought they'd kind of strong hand me a bit and, you know, saying Can we get you back in line? And And they said they talked about McClaren first they talked niceties. I'm going. Just get through. It just gets through that crash. I want to talk to you about my life. Then they got to the second part, which was likeAndrew Bracewell: so basedBarry Ratzlaff: on what we understand, McClaren and a new Christianity all stuff DoAndrew Bracewell: you think you can still work atBarry Ratzlaff: our church and hold those views? Because we'd love to have you as part of ourAndrew Bracewell: team, but we feel like you're shifting. I said Nope, I can't.Barry Ratzlaff: And I pulled my resignation of plotting the table said, There's my two weeks. Thank you, gentlemen. Enjoy your day. And I walked out and they just sat there with white faces because they didn't want to lose me. But they did. And I thought, this is fantastic. So I walked down the street from the Tim Hortons on the corner of South Frazer waiting. Glad when there and ah, I got about 100 feet past store and walk and feel like a 1,000,000Andrew Bracewell: bucks. I just quit a job. Oh, yes. Oh, God, Like it should be noted at that time in your life. You got young Children, four young Children, four young Children. You're you're not floating in money. No, you're you're living relatively paycheck to paycheck.Barry Ratzlaff: When I ever went to take vacations, a few of my client's razz me about this. I would go to the auctions, and at that time, in the most lucrative thing that I could flip was a mobility scooter, and some might find these mobility scooters at the auction. I'd fix them up putting batteries, and I'd sell them at a big profit so I could take my family on vacation. Would have enough money to do that. That's how he funded my fun stuff with flipping things.Andrew Bracewell: Wow. Yeah. So that's quite the story. I meet you in 2007. And so when I meet you in 2007 you've now been operating in a new way For, what, 45 years, then?Barry Ratzlaff: Yeah, we saw. That was 2001. I finished at the church. 2003 for good. And 2003. We hung basically hunger shingles. Got a website going. I remember the first guy. This is crazy. The first guy that walked through my door to be trained, uh, rob deck. He's a helicopter pilot with with chinook. He sat on my kitchen table. He wrote me a check for the full value of 36 session program the body for life program, and watched him signing this. Check this. I'm like, this is one dude, and he just wrote me a check for $1700. That's what I got paid every two weeks ofAndrew Bracewell: the church. Like this is if I could get like, I'm withBarry Ratzlaff: these guys, I'm I'm going golden and my very first client, Rob Dick. He won the Canadian body for life.Andrew Bracewell: That's so so cool because I had no one you coached. You coached him and doing that? Yeah. Okay,Barry Ratzlaff: now he's just another one.Andrew Bracewell: I knew you had done that. I just didn't know who you would coach. But that's the guy you coached to. Yeah, Okay.Barry Ratzlaff: And I coached on the guy in Chilled like Rob, Best former gym owner of gators. And he won the Canadian body for life. So we actually five champions. You're a little old, Jim.Andrew Bracewell: Not everybody in life gets to experience this, unfortunately, But the thing that you just alluded to that ah ha moment that you can have in life where you get paid fair value for the value that you bring her for your time. Yeah, It's quite a life changing moment to experience that not everybody gets to, but clearly for you, that was significant. And and I have experienced that as well.Barry Ratzlaff: So it was huge, and it's very difficult to accept that. Like, to believe you're worthy of that money. Absolutely. It just doesn't seem right.Andrew Bracewell: Hey, you. You touched on something. Really? I want to circle back to because there's a whole rabbit hole that we can go down. You talked about how, when, in the early part of your journey, your old mind thought, work hard, starve yourself And somewhere along the way, your new mind with your cookie story, and then thereafter learned that work hard and actually give your body a bounty. All right, good nutrition. And that is something. If I could explain that, that's a similar experience I had with you. So when I met you in 2007 and we don't have to get into the all of my story, well, maybe we can if you want, but my old brain thought the same thing. Starvation is nutrition, but that is not the case. So can you just dive into that a little bit and then also speak to the significant transformation, or maybe the ups and downs of the nutrition world in the last 20 years of you, as you've observed it from your chair?Barry Ratzlaff: Yeah, the ah, the value of nutrition cannot be overstated. It's easily 78. 80% of any successful short term and long term program is nutrition. It has to be your body's designed to use fuel in a way that makes sense to it. If it doesn't get what it needs, it's gonna basically shut itself down. It'll it'll turn itself off in and you won't get anywhere. Um, everyone has those experiences of plateaus and in their routines, plateaus, and some of them are normal. Some of them are very, very damaging. So the idea of understanding a your metabolic level like Where's What are you burning at rest in a given day? Well, I'm sitting here talking to you,Andrew Bracewell: which is different for everybody, right?Barry Ratzlaff: It's different for everybody, particularly for folks. So when I get people come to the gym doors that I know how it's called metabolic damage. So they have done dieting. They've done Kato. They've done all these horrific things to themselves and some of them not so horrific. Some of them truly are very, very damaging. They really need a start up there. They're burning, you know, 1500 calories a day when they should be burning 2500 calories aAndrew Bracewell: day because they've trained their body to live on starvation. Their bodies furnace is running at such an incredibly low.Barry Ratzlaff: They haven't trained anything. They've just caused a huge reaction in their system. The bodies is defending itself. It's just going into this retreat mode where it's gonna hold on to any calories it gets rather than burn them off,Andrew Bracewell: right? If you only want to give me 1200 calories, then I will learn how to operate off 12. And I haveBarry Ratzlaff: to, and it happens within 7 to 10 days. So so that's why I'm such a huge proponent of Sai clicked. Cyclist. Nutrition and every user were dieting. It's cycling contrition, so eating up and eating down and knowing where the line is and making sure the eating up enough to keep your metabolism stoked eating down enough that if you're trying to get off some body, thought you could do that, but only in a very short period of time. It's it's really a 5 to 7 day window that you can cycle through before your body begins to catch on. So, like, for instance, body for life, I keep referring to that people. It's funny. Whenever I talk to people body for life, they go,Andrew Bracewell: Oh hey, yeah, I did that program back in the day I'm like and yeah, I got I lost, like, £40 I felt fantastic. And I started stopped doingBarry Ratzlaff: it because of the next thing came out. Whatever it was, South Beach came out. And And Tony, whatever his name is in the PX nine year P 90 X came out. You know, the next thing came out and people think, Oh, all these programs revolving the human species must be evolving. So I have to change with the times like and then, uh, didn't you read the title of the book body for life Like It's for life? This works for life. I've been doing it 20 years. When I first had the this Ah ha moment began eating like this where I was eating 5 to 6 times a day on o'clock, measured amounts knew it was going in. It was going out. I was still working in the church at that time, and I go down to the staff room. I had I bought a blender, brought it in there. I have my own box of shakes there in the cupboard and remember is blending. One day one of the secretaries came in. She goes, she kind of looked at me with this sort of not really disdain, but, like, really, really, that's what you're doing. I know all about diets and she goes, How long can you keepAndrew Bracewell: that up? I said, Honestly, well, would Weight Watchers have been a thing at that time? Yes, like that's I remember Weight Watchers. So maybe her experience with dieting was probably something like that, which is heavy restrictionBarry Ratzlaff: going way back. Like you even reference still ity that that Atkins was 1972 started in 1972. Resurgence in the nineties and all the way through James Fix and his running, you know, his extreme running the guy who ran himself to death and had a heart attack. There was stuff all along the way. That was basically they were potholes for people to have these experiences of restriction, to lose weight and then to realize they couldn't do it. They blame themselves, and the diet industry lies heavily on that, that we will blame ourselves for it not working, and then we'll come back again and try harder next time because, well, I failed last time because I am a failure, not the program was a failure. If the program solid it is, does it is supposed to do? And it it has some degree of longevity built into it. It should work for anybody, really. But that's not how it worksAndrew Bracewell: so well, Call it cyclical dieting that fair. So you've embraced cyclical cyclical dieting for the last 20 year. So years. In that time, you've also now observed all of the fad diets, and you alluded to some of them. Whether it's Atkins, Kato, South Beach, I could probably think of a couple others if I scratch my head. Yeah, Paleo Haley. Oh, yeah, yeah. How has that have you? How have you had to deal with that in terms of your clients and your street conversations? And how has that impacted your business and whatever the parties, you're right where you're sipping cocktails and everyone has an opinion on something.Barry Ratzlaff: Everybody has an opinion because everyone has a body and everyone's a mouth and everyone's a smartphone. Put those together and you gotta just a dynamite box for people to have this knowledge about how you know what works and what doesn't the thing about. So let's let's pick on a current one, and I'm not picking on on purpose. I'm picking on it because I've seen too many bad stories or I seen the stories and poorly too many times. So it's Kato. Now People come to me and say, What do you think about Kato? And the thing I always say first is it works. It works like a hot damn if you're trying to get your body fat reduced. If you don't care about losing muscle mass, you don't care about losing your metabolic potential. If you're just trying to get lighter, you can't get better than kitto. You'll you'll lose fat at a shocking rate. But you'll also lose water, which is a big piece of the puzzle, because when you lose carbohydrates, carbohydrates and water bond in your system toehold in the muscle tissue, so you lose water. You lose a big monument that way. But the payoff at the end, or the payout at the end of that process is always always a nightmare. So two stories Ah guy, I know I won't see the place where he's employed, but I saw him at his place of employment about two years ago, and I saw him. And he's normally about £340 for here and £30. And he was maybe 200. I was like, Oh, my goodness. What have you done? He goes a I know, right? Look at this. Crazy. He's touching this. Get on his stomach. It's all floppy in loose and thinking. Maybe he has to have some surgery on that. And I said, So what you do. And he goes, I did. Kato got in a Keogh plan and just dropped 100. And whatever was £140. I'm like, Dude, you look amazing. Like you're You look amazing. And so then I inserted my caveat, which is No, I'm proud of you. Amazing job. Can I ask you a question? Yes. Is this sustainable? Can you do this for the rest of your life? He goes, I don't know if I can eat whole cream and bacon for breakfast every day. And avocados and and steak fat like like I know, I know. So I'm asking you, can you just forever. No, I can't. It's okay. I said, Are you thinking of transitioning into Ah, balanced lifestyle, Ingles? Yes, I am. I said king. Promise me this that you will phone me when the time comes and we can have a discussion. And I can help you set up a plan to get this thing done right? Because I will. I will. I said I won't charge you. I am so vested in this that I want to give this to you as a gift of Don't. Don't do this, man. Don't go down that road. I've seen it too many times. She goes okay. I will. I will. We lost touch. I didn't see him. He got transferred that story to another store. And ah, about a year later, he was then transferred back to the store and I saw him and I went Oh, my goodness. He was 3 50 I saw him and I I walked up and said, Hey, how's it going, man? He goes, Hey, and you could see the look of shame and defeat in his eyes because I hadn't changed at all over that year. But he had put on 100 and £50 and ah, hey, just he was a defeated human being and the chance of him being able to recover from that and get the weight down in a healthy way. Extremely, extremely low possibility ofAndrew Bracewell: that. So I would suggest from my anecdotal experience, which is not as vast as yours but as I've observed many of these bad diets from the sideline, I fortunately, you know, met you years ago when I did and embraced. What I would say is the right long term, holistic, healthy way of tackling the conversation of health and fitness. But what I've seen in the others is that the focus is weight loss predominantly without having to put work in in the gym. Is that a fair statement of a lot of those? Because my experience has been tackled the nutrition piece. But then along with the nutrition piece, is you gotta work your ass off in the gym. And if you're not willing to work your ass off in the gym than long term, it's not sustainable because our bodies are meant to move and work and anything that says you don't have to move and work is a trick that that's my own. Is that fair?Barry Ratzlaff: Absolutely early. Atkins early Kato. Others variations of Kitano called dirty heat or psych like Ito, where people are trying to make it a process where you could do this for life and you can incorporate exercise extreme exercise. And you can break muscle tissue down like we do in the gym and have it rebuild because carbohydrates are a fairly essential process part of that process. Um, yeah, that's a very fair statement to make.Andrew Bracewell: So where I go with this in my brain is that I look at the evolution of, you know, mankind and I think Okay, so let's go back 405 100,000 years ago, whatever we did not have to work to move in, that our body movement and physical activity came as a byproduct of what had to happen. Every day we were connected to the Earth. We had to work the ground, you know, work, work, the livestock. I mean, just to live and eat required physical exertion. And then we go through this metamorphosis evolutionary experience in life, and today we don't have to move. You and I could sit here on a chair in a lethargic state and be just fine with computers and smartphones and whatever else we want to add to that so I find, because of my own health experience and the fact that I was obese at a point time. My life. I find myself having these conversations now with our Children who are growing up in an even more lethargic state than I grew up in. And it's interesting because I don't think working out is a natural thing. I don't think a human just wakes up one day and says, I want to go push. Wait, So I'm gonna go for a run so we maybe have toe work. We have to convince ourselves that we need to do this because of the lethargic state that were in there were naturally living. And I'm having this conversation with my Children and they're even fighting me on it. But my fear is that if we don't train ourselves early that we need to do this, then you know we end up in a place that we don't want to be in. It's just Ah, this is a convo that were in every day, and I think we're here because of where we've come evolutionary on evolution basis.Barry Ratzlaff: Oh yeah, and I mean there's in the last 30 40 years There's been a huge movement in the school system to move away from physical activity as legislated. So my son was here for Christmas, and he's a personal trainer, Victoria. He was reading a book called Spark, and he was very excited about it. He was telling me a little excerpt from it. Basically, it's based on a gentleman's research down in Idaho where it's I think it's Idaho. It's the only state that has legislated physical activity in the states. Still, most of them moved away. They've cut those programs, so they've gotten rid of art. They've got rid of music, and they got rid of a visit. This guy was really interesting to visit because the neurotrophic value of exercise. So in this little enclave in Idaho, where these students air forced to forced to exercise their grades, are off the charts better in some of their math scores than Stan. Chinese schools, like these kids are killing it, and they're discovering that what happens to the brain when it's forced to B e, the bodies used in a way that you know, resistance training, intense exercise. It's the only way you can create these. These neural pathways in these chemicals, your endorphins in your serotonin and all these good things. They're supposed to be part of who we are, and they really helped build the brain in a functional way, an i Q way. And so there were just We've moved away from very, very valuable pieces of who we are as human beings, thinking they were not straws we don't need that would get the car and driver were going. Who wants to walk, well, well, ourselves around the mall, there's escalators. Take us up on the flights of stairs. There's all these things not knowing that we're shooting ourselves in the foot literally, um, physically. And we need to get back to the basics of why it's important for all this work to happen for our bodies. Fascinating for sure.Andrew Bracewell: You have a unique chair that you sit in in what in your vocation and what you do on the way, I'll do my best to describe it, and you can tell me if I've done a good job of it a little happy Speak to it. But my observation of you is that the majority of your clients are high level achievers in their varying areas of profession. And these people sit with you 34 times week for an hour or more, and you get to dialogue with them. And I've often thought that is fascinating that six, maybe five days, a week, eight hours a day or more. You're with high level achieving humans who have chosen to put their fitness and health versus a priority. What is that? What is that like to be in that environment 24 7 IBarry Ratzlaff: would say it's ah, it's encouraging in a in a weird way. You think? Oh, man, you're on these people, these these these humans, they're they're worth hundreds of millions of dollars and they're out there pulling strings. You know, in the real world that they're in control of some really cool stuff and they walked through my door and the door closes and agent, I just see the relief would go across your face there like a They're in a safe place, a place where they could be themselves. They can tell me what's going on inside of themselves because they know I have, ah, counseling pastoral history. And that piece of me didn't die like I still have a passion for understanding, helping and loving human beings in a way that gets them to a new place.Andrew Bracewell: That's the Lord Berry. I know the spirit of peace is in my hut. Gonna touch you in a way you have imagined. Okay, E i e I know it doesn't take much to get you off theBarry Ratzlaff: tangents air their attention there. So these guys come through the door and it's I just trained guys. I do train. Currently, I have one female, which is your wife, and you come together as a couple, but mostly guys and they come in andAndrew Bracewell: they should be noted. Your wife trainsBarry Ratzlaff: My wife trains the ladies? Yes, she works with ladies. Shay works, but the lady isn't at work with the gentleman.Andrew Bracewell: It seems to be the best system we could very old fashioned. Arranged.Barry Ratzlaff: It is. It is. Yeah. Yeah, it just saves us from from issues. Sure, Yeah, yeah. From issues that could be life altering. So we don't want to go down those paths. So they come through the door and the it's it's fantastic because they get to be riel. They love this. The pieces of it that I find very curious. They love me, telling them what to do because in their lives no one tells them what to do. They make the rules. If they can't make the rule, they'll buy a new rule like it's it's pretty cool. So they walk through the door and they kind of go, OK, Dad, what are you doingAndrew Bracewell: today like All right, here we go.Barry Ratzlaff: And off we go on our little journey or fitness journey. But it's way more than a fitness journey for these guys. It's always way more there. Is there so much more? In terms of the they need a place where they can be themselves. They need a place like cheers where everyone knows your name. Or at least one guy knows your name, your true name. And ah, we'll hear you out. You could tell me stuff thatAndrew Bracewell: you get it all right. Like you're you're in the therapist here Stuff? Yeah,Barry Ratzlaff: but every month I hear someone say I not even my wife knows this. Sure,Andrew Bracewell: but except me, honey, I don't talk to bury that way on DDE.Barry Ratzlaff: I'm totally good with it, like and I'd have no no needs toe feel like Oh, yeah, this is great. Having this insider information, it's like, No, it's like you're what you're telling me is in the vault and to guess what, We're all the same. And that's not a piece that makes me feel really good when these guys air coming up. Now what that way is that we are all the same. We all walk the same earth and we have the same issues. It doesn't matter if you have $100 million or $100 you face the same shit and it's how you deal with it that counts. Right now, these guys deal with things very differently. Their minds. So this is This is a note I made earlier in coming into. This is when I see and I was talking to one of my clients essay about this very factor, which is when someone walks through the door of the gym and I can usually tell how they're gonna react to pain. The way a person's pain response is is often how they'll function in life and most Taipei's. When you give them pain, it's sparked something in them. It doesn't shut them down. Most people get pain. They're like,Andrew Bracewell: Oh, that hurts. That hurts that IBarry Ratzlaff: I don't want to do that. That's that's uncomfortable, but a type A or like a really achiever. They feel pain, and it actually sparks curiosity.Andrew Bracewell: Yeah, I don't I don't even not toe push back on your comment. But I think it would be unfair to say Taipei's because there's there's people, maybe who aren't Taipei's who are high achievers. Yeah, I put that you agree not to pick what you're saying, but I know what I know. The spirit of what you're trying to say. People who are capable of a lot respond differently than those that are not. Is that it or not? Yeah, yeah,Barry Ratzlaff: I've had clients that that one is specific. Who every time I put a weight in his hand and he would do a rap as the way it was coming up, he was literally be saying outAndrew Bracewell: loud, out, out, out, out, out, out, and doesn't go down. Oh, out, out!Barry Ratzlaff: And he lasted two weeks and quit because for obvious reasons, yeah, versus a guy who I'll say, OK, this set is 10 wraps. He'll look at me and I like a challenge like 10. I'm giving you 12 and off he goes and he'll get his 12 like it just doesn't matter what number give. It's always more always moreAndrew Bracewell: the pattern in these people's lives just manifesting itself in the It is in the weight room.Barry Ratzlaff: Now on the inverse someone who has had not much success in life, who gets their physical self under control. They begin to see a spill over into all of their life. I heard it again and again and again like I don't know what's happening. But as I'm getting in better shape, I'm way more productive at work. Things were going so much better. My relationship with my wife, my family, is getting better like what's happening to me like it's like your body's doing what's designed to do, the chemicals air flowing. It'sAndrew Bracewell: well, I I'll, so I'll share a piece of my story with you. But I mean, I So I encountered you twice, encountered you first in 2000 and seven, and the things that I learned with you in that moment, I didn't stick with it. And, you know, we were with each other for maybe a year and I went away and I continued in some unhealthy living. But I came back to you in 2012 and the transformation I went through in 2012 I think at my highest I was £235. I was over 30% body fat. I was, by definition I was obese and I was 29 years old and I have been told I was pre diabetic from a doctor who scared the living shit out of me and thank God that he did, because had he not I probably I had this false confidence in my brain. Even though I wasn't amazing, I still thought I was amazing. I still have that to this day. Really. But in that moment I was like a soft bowl of pudding, and I probably thought like I was a middle linebacker, you know? But I needed to have the shit scared out of me. I did came back in 2012 point of the story being the transformation I went through with you in that let's say 6 to 12 month period in that second time back, and I've been with you ever since. But through the fall of 12 the first half of 13 I remember I went from £235 down to 182. I got my body fat index below 10%. I'm not living at that level today, but I went there and it changed my life. It so for me there was, you know, something that occurred in the gym spilled over into into the rest of my life. In the my family health, the health of my career, the way I engaged with humans, just my overall well being mental well being actually snapped in that, you know, in that space that we had together in the gym,Barry Ratzlaff: it's powerful. I mean, the rock calls it his anchor, right? The gym is his anchor. People think it's because he's he loves weightlifting or is addicted to it. Or, you know, he's a huge, muscular guy. But with that guy scheduled the things that he does on a daily basis, the anchor is it gives him his mental stability. It gives him the ability to do all the things he does, comes from his resistance training. Yeah, there's no mystery there and the world is starting to wake up to it. It's taken a while. Like when I first started lifting. That was 13 of 30 years old. When he first got into training, it was still an underground thing. People looked at kind of scoffed at it. Remember talking to people, body for life. And they say, Do I have to do the weight part? Like the weightlifting part?Andrew Bracewell: That's kind of gross. What other partisans? Yeah, I don't want to do cardioBarry Ratzlaff: kind to cardio new body for life. You have to modify it for you. It's not really gonna give you what you want, but okay. But now people are starting to to come awake to it. And unfortunately, as humans always do, they've gone just far, far too extreme with it. Power lifting was never meant to be competitive in the sense of repetition wise, it's Yeah. I want to go there right now because it gets me going real hot when I start thinking about those things. Yeah. WeAndrew Bracewell: don't wanna get you angry, Berry. No, no, no, no. So I had a conversation with somebody else. We're not gonna say names, but somebody else who's a client two years. We're discussing the fact that you were gonna be on the show. We both, you know, admire and love you and the conclusion. So the question we asked herself were like, Well, what? What makes very different wise, Very amazing, Because there's, you know, there's a 1,000,000 trainers in the world. Everybody's a trainer. I mean, you must feel like that in your industry. Literally. Everybody's a trainerBarry Ratzlaff: we started with. There was none in Abbotsford. We're the first ones. People saying Can you actually make a living doing that? IAndrew Bracewell: said, I don't know. I don't know.Barry Ratzlaff: So it worked. But now it's Yeah, everyone's got a personal train certificateAndrew Bracewell: I've got. I've got up European Swiss ball in my basement and I've got padding and I've got dumbbells that range from £3 all the way to £14 I'm gonna get in the best shape of your life. There's people are gonna listen This they're actually gonna feel conviction. Thio Shit. He's talking about me. I might be Oh, and keep doing what you're doing. Cut the air. Beautiful. Just the way. So here's the Here's the conclusion we came to as to why Why is very rats off? Amazing. Why is he not just one of the others? And it was this. You have all the knowledge you have, the physical knowledge nailed. So when it comes to how to lift weights, how to train, how to grow muscle, you know, you know that you know the body very, very well. You also have the nutrition piece absolutely hammered. And the evidence is in the 20 years of proof of successful clients and people who have made significant changes to their body. But more so than any of those two things, it's very obvious that you care the most about the mind. And I don't know if this is something. You just woke up one day and said, I need to care for the human mind more than you know. I don't know what the conversation is. I don't even know if you've ever thought of this or would agree with it. But I would suggest that when somebody trains with you, their brain is as important to you as anything else. What do you What do you think about that?Barry Ratzlaff: Absolutely. I mean, the first thing was, someone walks to the door they're not, Ah, a client in the sense of a person I make money from. I don't even Janet when for the 1st 3 or four years she had to force me to ask for money because I wasn't I didn't care. I get it. We have to pay bills. But I I was so excited to work with people one on one in a sincere it was almost a pastor or a relationship without the religious crap. It was human, really into human. Let's let's just sort of put our minds together and see what we come up come up with here and ah, so yeah, I I really love it. And when I get a client coming through who's not really willing to open on that level, it's kind of disappointing, Like I realized pretty quick on this person. They don't want to go deep. They just want to get their workout in, and often that relationship won't last that long, but fromAndrew Bracewell: because you only have so much time. You don't want to give your time to somebody who's not. It was not all fully engagedBarry Ratzlaff: now, and because we are holistic beings, the mind, the body the spirit, whatever that may be, our completely connected. And so we can't pretend that just lifting weights is gonna make me a healthy human. It's like, absolutely not like your brain is 80% of the equation. If your brain's messed up and it's thinking like some really bad shit about who you are, how you function amongst people boat your relationship with your wife for your kids or whatever, you're not gonna be healthy. That's not health.Andrew Bracewell: And you see that, right? I mean, I can't even say that you've seen that you have to speak about other clients. But in me, let's say there's a direct relation to be in terms of where the person's brain is that and then their physical output. Oh,Barry Ratzlaff: yeah, moments. Yeah, I've seen it in you. When you went through the process over the last year and 1/2 of purchasing the company and the stress load you're carrying, um, the effect it had on you and your wife like put strain on everything and it shows up in how you perform in the gym. And you know what, Jim? Performance as I say the guys all the time. That's secondary just let the weights be the weights every any given Sunday. Give it a week or two. You'll be back up to the weights you're pushing before. Don't sweat it. Do the routine. Get the chemicals flowing. Feel good. This is good. We're doing a good thing here. And then two or three weeks later Oh, I feel fantastic and you're crushing it again. And it's not supposed to be.Andrew Bracewell: Yeah, What's that? You always say this to me. Your cause, your muscles don't know that the weight they don't only whale the resistance. The only No intensity, right, Right, So you could be having a shitty day and whatever doing dumbbells at £70. And you know, you could do nineties or 100 but your your muscles don't know the difference between that. They're under full load and they're maxed out. That's all they know.Barry Ratzlaff: Fibers. They're they're doing that they're doing. They're very, very best for you at that point. And if they're doing their best, that's all they can do. It's your brain. That's the problem. Your brain sees the 60 on the dumbbells or the 80 and you start beating yourself up. What's your problem? look at that. You're a piece of sheer. So weak. Well, you need, sir. Beat yourself up likeAndrew Bracewell: No, don't do that. Like I haveBarry Ratzlaff: days. I tell guys I have days and actually learn this from from Schwarzenegger, cause I remember reading an article way back in the eighties about him and he and he said, Ah, there, days he goes. He's the first proponent that Ah, weightlifting is 80% mental. It's all in the mind. And so he said he'll come to that. He'd come to the gym and he kind of get his warm up, down and get ready in his first sets and realized I'm not here today mentally. And you'd leave. I'm like, What? No, no, no Pushed through. And it started to embrace that idea that Yeah, there's days when I go to the gym when I'm not present, so I'll walk in. I'll do my warm up. Something's not right. My head somewhere else. Go back to the house, live to fight another day. Come back the next day, feel a 1,000,000 bucks and crush it. So but my clients will that prove a can't just showAndrew Bracewell: up like you know what I don'tBarry Ratzlaff: feel so good. I'm gonna go and come back tomorrow, Uh, can't fit you in. But okay,Andrew Bracewell: so if you were to write a memoir or a book, as I alluded to earlier in which he spoken to you, you've spent a lot of time with a lot of high level people in a variety of industries. What would be the theme of that memoir in that? What would be your commentary on? Is there a similar thing that all of these humans do? Or is there a trait where you go? Yeah, they're totally unrelated. Different industries, different professions. But there's this one or two things that are just common. Is that Is that something that exists or no,Barry Ratzlaff: I would say the most pivotal piece and all that would be what they truly believe about themselves or what they truly have embraced about themselves. That someone else has taught them so for, ah, high achiever. For the most part, these people believe a they can do these things. They believe they're worthy of success. Um, when the money comes, they're okay with that. They know how to work with it. They can manage it. And they feel worthy of that. And when it comes to the gym, they kind of think, Yeah, I'm here because you know what you're doing. And if I work with you, this is gonna be fine. We're going to get somewhere vs a mind that's been beaten down. It doesn't believe anything good about itself and sees nothing but negative around itself. And all those things have a way of manifesting too, you know, financial trouble in relational trouble and all down and poured nutritional habits. The all our site Click it so and they'll spiral down in this pool so that you're spiraling up with positive self image or you're splattering down. And so there's one trait these guys would carry and the few women have worked with its Their minds are strong. They have their self image is intact and they believe good things about themselves. Not not cocky, kind of like you're you're just a dick about about yourself, but actually good, positive things that yeah, you're you're a good human, and what you bring to the table is valuable. It's worth something, and you have something to offer. And so they they believe that. And it has a way of manifesting in their life in success.Andrew Bracewell: It never ceases to amaze me how I feel like no matter what the topic in life, everything always boils down to the health of the brain. Oh, absolutely, it's just mind blowing. Absolutely. I think our world has opened up more to that conversation there. We're more aware of it now, so it's getting talked about more. But it's just fascinating to me that you could be talking about something that you think has nothing to do with the brain. And then at the end of the day, just it all boils down. Two to the health of the brain.Barry Ratzlaff: Mental health is it's a burgeoning field. It's crazy to say that because we've had self help books and psychology books around for for 50 years, but it is. It's a burgeoning field, in a sense that people are becoming aware that mental illness. Um, and we used to think mental illnesses like you belong in Riverdale like off to the mental house with you, right? But mental illness has got, you know, so many layers on so many levels, and whatever your level is, it's it's legit. What you're feeling what? The way you're talking to yourself, the voices in your head, the voice of your father in your head, voice of your boss in your head, all conspiring to this sort of ah stew of either positivity or some really, really nasty negativity that old don't have kept your life. It'll make you incapable of doing certain things and achieving certain things.Andrew Bracewell: And it's also possible that you can be feeling really shitty in your brain and down on yourself, and you don't have a mental illness. You're just in a really shitty state. And so what do you What do you say to somebody? Or what would you say to somebody? Because the majority of the world, I think it's not the people that have the healthy self image image right, and they struggle to find their fitness path and have confidence in the gym and eternal life Run. What do you What do you do with that? Like, what's the What's the first thing to try to overcome? If someone's just so they're shit kicking themselves so much in their head that even if they put the right thing in front of them, they're still gonna have a hard time because in their head they're just pieces of shit.Barry Ratzlaff: I think the first action step is get off social media. Stop looking at Instagram pictures of people who have perfect bodies and our purveying these perfect lives because that is such a negative thing for your brain. It's complete horseshit. It iss it's so, so destructive. And I think about our kids, Um, and not just teens. I think about kids. Your your kid's age. Yeah. Who are exposed to this already? Yeah, they're grading themselves from judge themselves against these images and thinking, Well, why don't I look that way? How come I don't have a $1,000,000 I'm 19 years old? You know, like Billy Isla? She's a millionaire and she's 19. Like how come I don't have that? It's so unhealthy. So the first thing I'd say to somebody who's struggling with self image stuff is stopped feeding yourself the negativity and it might come in is positivity like, Oh, this is a This this person has amazing instagram account. You've got all these things going that seems really positive, but you spend it and becomes negative because you're not those things get rid of that stuff. That's that's poison to your brain. Second, find to human beings that you know love and trust and hold on to their evaluation of you. They're the ones that matter so that your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, your husband, your wife and they've been saying for years.Andrew Bracewell: What are you talking about? You're awesome. I loveBarry Ratzlaff: you. You're perfect. The way you are. Get the other voices out of your head. Hold onto to that. Say you're amazing and hold on to those because that's all accounts we had to pick her life. Who are you? You're you're champions for you. Your cheerleading section, You got everything that's the place to start. And then then once you kind of got your the the the atmosphere around your clear. Now start looking for examples of what you think you could be capable of, Like what I did back in the day when I went gym to gym and said, I want to talk to these guys because they're doing what I want to do. So why would I read a book or try to make it up myself when I could talk to them. They they're doing it right now in front of me. Find people who are doing what you think is, you know, lets your passion and you know that stuff that

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