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@Lauren_McDuffie, is the author of the beautiful and inspiring cookbook "Homemade-ish: Recipes and Cooking Tips That Keep It Real" Known for her knack of blending home-cooked charm with modern-day convenience, Lauren's work has been making waves in the culinary world. We'll dive into her creative process, chat about her beloved blog "My Kitchen Little," and get a glimpse into the life of someone who beautifully marries food, photography, and writing.So grab a cup of coffee, settle in, and get ready to be inspired by the delightful Lauren McDuffie.TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS:Stephanie [00:00:15]:Hi. Welcome to Dishing with Stephanie's dish, and I am here with the author Lauren McDuffie, Talking With My Mouth Full , and she is someone that I'm just getting familiar with. So Lauren, welcome to the program.Lauren McDuffie [00:00:26]:Thank you so much for having me.Stephanie [00:00:28]:Yeah. Your book, Homemade-ish, I think I saw it, like, on maybe a publisher's weekly list, and then I started paging through it. And you're I I hope this, like, hits you in the right way. You're kind of, like, sort of semi homemade ish, but not exactly.Lauren McDuffie [00:00:48]:Yes. No. That's you really hit the nail on the head with that. Okay. Yeah.Stephanie [00:00:52]:I used to watch semi homemade with Sandra Lee you. In the beginning of the Food Network days, and she's kinda gotten a bad rap. What I loved about her and what I loved when I was going through your book too is just this idea that we don't have to, like, make every single thing from scratch in order to put a decent meal on the table for our family.Lauren McDuffie [00:01:16]:Right. It's just that's just true.Stephanie [00:01:19]:And it prevents people sometimes from cooking at all. This idea that cooking is so complicated and so hard. And as someone who I mean, I'm just a home cook, and I feel like that's a great space where you can sometimes take shortcuts and also knowing the shortcuts to take.Lauren McDuffie [00:01:38]:Yes. Exactly.Stephanie [00:01:40]:So your book, Homemade-ishLauren McDuffie [00:01:42]:Mhmm.Stephanie [00:01:43]:Is really lovely. And I felt like was the modern day version of sort of that idea because your food looks incredible. Your you must be a are you a a photo stylist? Because your food in your book is, like, amazing.Lauren McDuffie [00:01:58]:Thank you. Yes. I did the photography and the styling for all my books, and it's I just love that part of the process so much. So thank you for saying that.Stephanie [00:02:07]:I did laugh because you have a piece in there you, talk about, like, I just love this. This is my joy. And I'm in the middle of finishing a second book, and I'm not feeling that it's my joy.Lauren McDuffie [00:02:23]:I get that too. Yeah. That's fair. I was like, I'm all the time. So I under Yeah.Stephanie [00:02:30]:I have 35 pictures left, and I don't even wanna eat the food anymore because I'm so sick of it.Lauren McDuffie [00:02:35]:Yep. You've spent enough time with it probably. Yes. I get that. I do.Stephanie [00:02:40]:So catch my listeners up a little bit about you and who you are and your blog.Lauren McDuffie [00:02:46]:Okay. So I yes. I run a, a recipe website called my kitchen little, which I think it just turned 5, like, within the past week. So I I don't know. In blog years, that's not a baby anymore. So and and I run it as a business, which I really, I really enjoy. But prior to this website, I had a blog, which was very much a writing space. I love to write, and I started that, I don't know, maybe 12, 13 years ago, a long time ago back when food blogs were still sort of a novel thing.Lauren McDuffie [00:03:19]:Not everyone had one at the time. So I started I started that when my daughter was was a baby, and I just needed an outlet. And for me, cooking has always been my favorite sort of creative outlet. I love food. I love to talk about food, and a blog just seemed like a really nice way to gather together my creative interest with writing and cooking. And and, eventually, I fell in love with photography just by necessity because I learned that people want to see what you're talking about. Yes. So I grew a new love for that whole side of it too.Lauren McDuffie [00:03:50]:So so I had a food blog for a really long time purely as a hobby, but I I I met a lot of other people along the way who were in in food land just like me but in different ways. And, I had the opportunity to do my my first cookbook several years ago, which was kind of an homage to my Appalachian roots. And then I did another book a few years later, which is called Southern Lights. I lived in Charleston, South Carolina at the time. AndStephanie [00:04:15]:You did? My brother lives there. I love Charleston so much.Lauren McDuffie [00:04:18]:I love you. We moved to Portland a year ago from Charleston, and I was very sad to leave. But I love Portland too. So so it's it's been fine. But, yeah, I have a special spot in my heart for Charleston, and that book sort of was inspired by just my time living in, the low country and in the south, and I wanted to show off the healthier side of the southern table, which was a really fun book project. But, this book, Homemade ish, I just really enjoyed doing because I've found that a lot of my actual friends, like in my neighborhood and in my real life, are really drawn to things that are genuinely easy, truly low maintenance, and unintimidating. You know, I love a long cooking project with the best of them, something that takes all day and then I have to go out into the world to find really obscure ingredients. I like that because I'm a food nerd, and that's the kind of stuff that makes me happy.Lauren McDuffie [00:05:11]:But a lot of people, in fact, most people that I know, they're not like that. They they do, however, want to make food themselves in their home because there's a lot to be said for that, but they wanna do it with the least amount of fuss, you know, possible. And so that's really where the idea for this book came. And I also did use to watch semi homemade, and I appreciated kind of the heart of the show. The point of it made so much sense to me. So, yeah, I kind of wanted to breathe some modern new life into that concept. And because ready made foods and store bought foods have really come a long way since the nineties, and there's so much out there, that's that's really great fodder for jumping off and being creative and doctoring up into something new. And that was that's kind of the point of the book.Stephanie [00:05:57]:Yeah. So you take something that's maybe giving you a a a helping hand as it were, like pesto or deli meats or even, rotisserie chickenLauren McDuffie [00:06:08]:Yes.Stephanie [00:06:08]:And then you kinda take it the rest of the way.Lauren McDuffie [00:06:11]:Absolutely. Yeah. I think that cookbooks really serve a wonderful purpose in just giving ideas also. I think sometimes just coming up with what to make for dinner can be, you know, a deterrent in and of itself. And so I'm I'm hoping that these recipes are also fodder for people's own just riffing and and their own interpretation. So, hopefully, it'll help people see their grocery stores kind of in a new light. Like, what do you mean for me? Yeah. Yeah.Stephanie [00:06:38]:You mentioned in the book, I think it's 5, like, of your favorite products that everyone should have in their pantry at all times that you always have a meal available. And maybe it wasn't exactly 5, but I think it was pesto was 1. Yep. Curry. I think prepared curry was theLauren McDuffie [00:06:58]:paste. I love I love a curry paste.Stephanie [00:07:01]:And can you share a few more?Lauren McDuffie [00:07:03]:Sure. And I think that this list probably changes, a little bit, but for me, a rotisserie chicken is always a go to. I I tend to never get sick of finding ways to wield a rotisserie chicken because you can just do so much with them. But I think this is gonna you know, people scoff at at bagged salads sometimes, which is silly to me, but I do a lot in this book with bagged salads. I usually have one in my fridge to play on and and riff on. I think they're really valuable because it saves you time with chopping and Yeah. Procuring all of the individual things. I just there's something to be said for that.Lauren McDuffie [00:07:41]:SoStephanie [00:07:41]:Do you have bagged salad? Like, are you an Aldi person? Are you a Trader Joe's person? Are you whatever your grocery store is where you are? Because they apparently someone told me once that the bagged salads at Aldi that are $3 are really quite good, and I've never hadLauren McDuffie [00:07:57]:I haven't either. Although, I'm people I see people talking about Aldi more and more singing its praises. So I will have to check that out. That's really good intel.Stephanie [00:08:07]:I can't get past the quarter to get the cart.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:10]:Oh. Oh, yeah. I can't do that.Stephanie [00:08:12]:I'm like, come on. Like, it's a quarter, but people say it ensures that the people bring the carts back into the store.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:21]:I see. Okay. Okay. I'm just like, chargeStephanie [00:08:24]:me a dollar. I don't care. I just want I don't wanna have to fish around in my bag for a quarter.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:29]:Right. I know. That's true. I didn't know about that whole thing. Okay. That is interesting. But it's funny you mentioned Trader Joe's because I just went there last week for the first time in, like, 6 years for no reason other than that. I've moved a few times and COVID happened, and I just hadn't been in a while, and I forgot how much I love that store.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:49]:Yeah. And it it's perfect for this book because they have so many wonderful things that are already kind of made and started for you. But, yeah, I almost panic bought so many things when I went in there because I was like, oh gosh. It all looks so good.Stephanie [00:09:03]:You are my person because I'm a panic shopper. Yeah. Like, where I just and and during COVID, I mean, I have still nightmares about trying to go to the grocery store during COVID and just literally throwing things in your cart and running out. But I'm also a panic orderer at a restaurant because I want everything.Lauren McDuffie [00:09:23]:Oh, I know. I I feel you on that. I'm a little bit like that. I close my eyes and just play roulette andStephanie [00:09:29]:Yes.Lauren McDuffie [00:09:30]:That's like your dog. No. I get that. But I did I got some salads there last week to your point that were very good. So but, yeah, normally, I I grocery shop so much just for my work that it's almost a daily thing. And, I do get delivered groceries, which people think is funny because I don't always pick out my own individual this and that. But for pure efficiency sake, again, which is sort of the heart of this book, I just shop at, like, my big local supermarket and and get all my bagged salads and sundries there and, you know, use them in a pinch. They're always helpful.Stephanie [00:10:04]:Every day, what does your day look like? Like, are you already working on the next book, and is that what you're doing every day?Lauren McDuffie [00:10:11]:Yeah. You know, I, I did this book right before we moved from Charleston to Portland, and I did it really fast. For me, it was it was fast. And it didn't burn me out, but it definitely gave me a nice kind of pause in in the the cookbook making because I had a book come out a year ago as well. So I had 2 come out pretty close together, which has been really fun. But I'm just kind of enjoying sitting back a little and looking at the stuff I've made, and and I'm actually working on a non food related book, right now just to see, if that can go anywhere. So but I've been focusing a lot on my my website and growing that. I just you know, as I said before, it's past the 5 year mark, and it's really nice to see that, coming more to fruition and and doing doing pretty well.Lauren McDuffie [00:11:02]:So I've just kind of thrown myself into the to that side of things, but I'm sure another book idea will will will surface because I love making them. But, like, you you were just saying, it's a lot when you're in it. It's like, woah. I'm I why am I doing this? But it's it's great when all is said and done, but, yeah, I took a little break.Stephanie [00:11:19]:There's been a kinda trend that I've been seeing with cookbook authors and recipe developers. I'm curious if you're thinking about this at all. We have a lot of people that have launched substacks, and Instagram and TikTok are just full of recipes. And we're in some respects, I feel like have reached this, like, everything is just like this free recipe, and people just comment like recipe, recipe, recipe. Yes. And Yes. With that, which is great because you build an audience and you build a community, there are some creators that are like, wow. I'm just putting all this time, energy, and money into this thing that the books aren't making money like they used to.Stephanie [00:12:06]:Podcasts have never really made money unless you're, like, the top 20. And so we have all these creators spending all this energy, and we're all chasing, you know, the few scents that you get when someone watches something on a YouTube. So I'm wondering if, like, we're almost at, like, some of the creators, Carolyn Chambers has talked about this, about taking all of her recipes off of her website and really funneling people only into recipe ways that she can monetize. Have you thought about that at all, or do you think about that when you're working on your blog?Lauren McDuffie [00:12:41]:Yeah. I do. Because sometimes it does start to feel almost futile when you really sit back and you think of I mean, and you just summarized it really well. I go back and forth. I mean, I actually started a substack, as well, and I've enjoyed that as a separate space for me to write more creatively because no one comes to food blogs anymore, as you know, to hear hear what anyone has to say about their life. I mean, that's a that's a big joke now. You know, get to the recipe already. And so my self stack became sort of that.Lauren McDuffie [00:13:09]:I think for me, it's been motivating because my own traffic on my website has grown exponentially over the last year, really, year, maybe year and a half, and that keeps me in the game. But I do sometimes wonder and I had someone ask me just last week about, another factor, which is AI is now a part of things as well too, which is so intimidating and it makes me wonder, is that where people are just going to stop, you know, for all of their their recipes? And are we gonna become obsolete? I don't know. It's scary actually to think about it. But but I have some very, very dear friends who are full time food bloggers and are very helpful resources for me and have taught me a lot about SEO, so I which is search engine optimization, and it's sort of how to play the game with Google so that you get your content in front of all the people out there who are googling things all the time. And it keeps me inspired and motivated when I talk to other people who have found real success in this. But I don't know. To your question, it is a little bit nerve wracking and and scary to think about what's gonna happen 5 years from now. I don't really know, but I just know that I enjoy doing it and I I'm enjoying the little wins and little successes that I'm seeing month to month right now, and that's keeping me going.Lauren McDuffie [00:14:27]:And and the books, like you said, you know, I don't know many people who write cookbooks to get rich, but, it's a wonderfully legitimizing thing to have. I love having a tangible representation of of my work, and it's it's just I I love them. I love that I've that I've done them, and it's it's valuable in other ways that aren't necessarily monetary. And and it all kind of works together as this little food machine and who knows exactly where it's going, but I I'm confident and optimistic that it'll still be, there's still a place for our blogs and recipe websites.Stephanie [00:15:01]:Well and to your point, I think what is also happening, which is sort of in your wheelhouse, I don't consider myself a writer. My husband actually is a writer, So I'm pretty careful about what that looks like in that space. I am a 300 words or less person. I am a bullet pointed list. I just that's how I think, and that's what works for me. But to your point, if you have, like, talent in the writing space and having your own personal points of view, I do think that there's always gonna be room for that where people align with your vision or your values or your lifestyle choices, and they get to know you and they wanna be more in your world?Lauren McDuffie [00:15:44]:Hope so. Yeah. I think so too. I really do. That that human element of the equation is special, and I think people like it. It's it's a really nice thing. And so I'm hoping in fact, you know, I've actually made a commitment to invest more into the writing in my website even though I'm not telling you a story about my life anymore.Stephanie [00:16:05]:Right. But youLauren McDuffie [00:16:06]:can still weave your voice into how you explain food. You know, most of my my blog posts, I don't even really call it a blog anymore. It really is more of a recipe website, but there's still tons of words in there. And you could pick and choose which words you use, and I try to make mine as useful, but also entertaining and worth people's time to read, and that's one way you can separate yourself from the bazillions of other people who are doing the same thing. SoStephanie [00:16:32]:Yeah. So I'm talking with Lauren McDuffie, and her book is Homadish. Couple of other things in your book specifically that I really loved. I I don't know. I I was, was thinking about this today. I was, doing a TV segment with a friend and there was a laundry guy on and he was talking about, know, the 5 things you need to have in your laundry room. And I thought, wow. You know, there's blogs and I've got, like, kitchen essentials and you really broke it down this in in your book, some things worth noting about what you should the 13 things you literally need to have in your kitchen.Stephanie [00:17:10]:I've never seen a list so small and so spot on. So good for you.Lauren McDuffie [00:17:15]:Thank you. Yeah. I, I that list came to be because I was photographing the book, and, I realized I have I have rooms filled with props and things that I've used for years because I work as a food photographer and a stylist. But in, you know, in the name of keeping things real and, authentic, I just used the stuff that I genuinely cook with in my real life. So, yeah, it made it it made it very clear that you don't need a lot. I love minimalism. It makes me feel good, and so I wanted to kinda capture that.Stephanie [00:17:47]:Yeah. So it was a cutting board, a chef's knife, a large deep lidded pot, a large skillet, a medium lidded pot, large baking sheets, a muffin pan, which I might argue with you on the muffin pan.Lauren McDuffie [00:17:58]:Yeah. Yeah. I know. I had to sneak that in because there's 2 recipes in my book that require it.Stephanie [00:18:03]:Okay. Alright. A Dutch oven, a grater, a can opener, a large spatula or spoon, a blender, or and a strainer. And and, like, I guess because the one thing that the muffin pan is is you can't replicate a muffin pan, really.Lauren McDuffie [00:18:17]:Well, that's true. Well and I think, specifically, I was just trying to say that you can literally make every single thing in this book with just these 13 things, but I'd be willing to stretch that and say you could probably get by with cooking a lot more for a lot longer with just these things. You really don't need I mean and you're right. The muffin pan is very unique to the to the book. But, yeah, I I think in general, less is more. I'm not a big, single use kitchen tool person. I used to be, but we have moved so much. Like, my family, we've moved a lot, and that'll make a minimalist out of you.Lauren McDuffie [00:18:52]:Yeah. It had it had me. So, yeah, I wanted to weave that notion into this book because I think it's kind ofStephanie [00:18:58]:refreshing. So do you have an instant pot or a slow cooker?Lauren McDuffie [00:19:01]:I do have a slow cooker because I love them. They're so helpful, and I love a slow cooked thing. Like, we're getting into that season now, so mine's like, I've just dusted it off and it's ready to go. But, yeah, I I don't have an instant pot, and I'm sure I would like it. I mean, I'm sure I would like an air fryer. I don't have that either, and I I know people love them. But that's just me probably being resistant to one change. And then also, you know, if we move again, that's another thing I'm gonna have to pack and unpack.Lauren McDuffie [00:19:31]:SoStephanie [00:19:32]:Yeah. You don't need a air fryer. And the only thing I would say about the Instant Pot is the pressure cooking aspect is really nice, and it's a slow cooker too. Oh, yes. But there's something kinda homey about your ceramic slow cooker. You know?Lauren McDuffie [00:19:49]:Yes. And I love just I love a Dutch oven, like, old school just but I also work from home, and so I'm here to to do that. But for I used to not work in my house, and I loved a slow cooker because it just it made everything so easy.Stephanie [00:20:04]:Yes.Lauren McDuffie [00:20:04]:Yeah.Stephanie [00:20:06]:So as you're thinking about food trends and kind of new products, like, one of the, you have a recipe that's kinda like this. You know, we went through a shakshuka phase.Lauren McDuffie [00:20:18]:Yes.Stephanie [00:20:19]:Mhmm. Are there any, like, trends that you're seeing on the horizon that you're like, oh, I need to simplify that?Lauren McDuffie [00:20:28]:That's that's a great question. I well, one trend that I've literally been working on just this morning is I'm really obsessed with chili crisp, which is something I see all over the place. I like spice. And so I've been trying to think of ways in fact, I just shared in my, I think I shared in my news letter, or I'm getting ready to, ways to kind of make your own but using a store bought one as your just like with homemade ish, using it as a launch pad. So I took a chili crisp that I bought, from maybe Trader Joe's, and I turned it into a southern style chili crisp by adding something like candied pecans and a little apple cider vinegar and, like Yum. Like, so it it and brown sugar, I think, or or molasses is what it was. But, anyways, I southernized, an already store bought product, which is very much what this book is sort of all about. But I keep seeing chili crisp everywhere, and it makes me so happy because I love it.Stephanie [00:21:23]:I really wanna put that on a white bean or cauliflower or puree. I'm just hearing you talk about it.Lauren McDuffie [00:21:30]:That's the perfect idea. Yeah. That would be fun.Stephanie [00:21:33]:Do you like, some of the as I look at cookbooks Mhmm. Sometimes I see, like, that and this is why I'm probably not a very prolific person when I do this. I kind of plot along. Like, oh, I'm gonna make, you know, this, double stuffed something. And then they find 12 other ways to make the same thing, but just with different twists on it. Do you think like that?Lauren McDuffie [00:22:01]:I think I do now, but that's because I have to think strategically about how I publish recipes on and on my website, at least, because that's very that's very useful just for getting views and getting people. It's funny how how my brain splits into when I'm writing recipes for a book. It's a very different it's much freer, actually, creatively. But then, to your question, when I'm working on coming up with recipes for my, for my website, yeah, if I can split something off and offer variations, that serves me really well. So, yeah, I think my brain does work that way. Yeah. The more the merrier.Stephanie [00:22:39]:Yeah. And and I know I I'm always like, there's a reason people are doing it like this. AndLauren McDuffie [00:22:44]:Yeah.Stephanie [00:22:44]:I'm not doing it like that, but I know there's a reason why people are. And it never occurred to me that it was due to SEO, but that makes total sense.Lauren McDuffie [00:22:52]:Yeah. That's why I would do it at least. Yeah. Yeah.Stephanie [00:22:56]:Are there other cookbook authors that inspire you or that like, books that you just will never take off your shelf considering that you've moved, so you've probably pared down?Lauren McDuffie [00:23:05]:Yes. I really have. I donated some books that I'd worn pretty well. But, yes. I, I love Alison Roman's books. I I just I think the well, her food is a lot like the food that I just cook for myself, on any given day because it's very simple. It's nothing more than it needs to be, and I like that. But I really respect and appreciate anybody that truly innovates and carves out their own style.Lauren McDuffie [00:23:32]:That's really hard to do. I mean, I live in this very saturated world of, you know, recipe development and food. And so anytime someone comes along and has a very distinct and sort of fresh feeling, point of view, I just think that's great. I admire that. At it. Yeah. She's good at that. She's she's done that for herself.Lauren McDuffie [00:23:50]:So she's the first person that came to mind. And and I have her books. They're sitting out, and they have been for a long time. So yeah. Yeah. I love her.Stephanie [00:23:59]:When you is there, like, a classic recipe that you just find yourself coming back to that's maybe from your blog that you just love andLauren McDuffie [00:24:09]:Yeah. I always say my, my most, I guess, well loved and well worn recipe, it's, I love Cajun and Creole, Cuisine, and I've got just this etouffee recipe that I have been making for a really, really long time, that's got shrimp and and chicken and andouille, and it's just so good. I've made it for, I think, everyone that has ever come to my house. It's just so tasty, and it tastes better the longer that it sits. Anything that can check that box, I'm gonna automatically be a fan of. But but I think that's my all time favorite, and I love, like, a Cocoa Van, as well. In fact, I'm sitting here today working on chicken stew collection, for my website, and that's just my favorite, I think, category of of food just in general. But my all time favorite would be the this like an etouffee, like a spicy one.Lauren McDuffie [00:24:59]:Yeah. I love them, and I make them all the time. SoStephanie [00:25:02]:Yeah. And that is super southern too. Like Yep. Something that you know, sometimes I think, like, oh, do I even need to, like, tell someone a recipe for this? Like, some of it seems so obvious.Lauren McDuffie [00:25:15]:Oh, sure.Stephanie [00:25:15]:That is something and and I guess you get accustomed. Like, I can make gravy like nobody's business. Yeah. Sure. But I you know, in the Midwest, we had grew up with gravy on everything, so it's Yeah. Sort of unique.Lauren McDuffie [00:25:28]:And appreciate that. I know. I I forget sometimes how, I I assume things are just, so easy and you don't need recipes for things, but then I'll have friends who just are like, Lauren, no. That's why I wrote this book. They're just like, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. My brain doesn't work that way. And so I always equate it to the way that I am with gardening. I don't know how to do anything with plants at all.Lauren McDuffie [00:25:51]:I'm so ignorant, and so I always just try to remember, like, how I am with plants is how some people are with cooking. It's just not your you wanna do it, but you just aren't super well versed in. SoStephanie [00:26:01]:yeah. Alright. Well, I'm gonna put a link to the book, obviously, homemade ish, in the notes here. I will also, remind me of the name of your blog again.Lauren McDuffie [00:26:12]:It's called my kitchen little, and so it's just my kitchen little dot com.Stephanie [00:26:15]:It's cute. And then, I'll find your substack, and I'll link to it too. Great. And we'll go from there. But it was really lovely to spend time with you. I Right. Really think the book is clever. I felt like I knew right away people in my life that would really get a lot out of this.Lauren McDuffie [00:26:33]:Good to hear.Stephanie [00:26:34]:And, it's beautifully shot, which is also I really admire that because I'm over here with my stupid iPhone, but it's, it's beautifully shot. It looks great, and I would recommend that people buy it. I when I really sat down with it and went through the recipes, I liked it very much. It's homemade ish. Recipes and cooking tips that keep it real. And I liked your 13 things you need in the kitchen probably minus the muffin pan.Lauren McDuffie [00:27:01]:That's fair. That's fair. I get it. Alright. Thanks, Lauren. Thank you so much.Stephanie [00:27:06]:Okay. We'll talk soon. Bye bye.Lauren McDuffie [00:27:13]:Bye bye. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

@Lauren_McDuffie, is the author of the beautiful and inspiring cookbook "Homemade-ish: Recipes and Cooking Tips That Keep It Real" Known for her knack of blending home-cooked charm with modern-day convenience, Lauren's work has been making waves in the culinary world. We'll dive into her creative process, chat about her beloved blog "My Kitchen Little," and get a glimpse into the life of someone who beautifully marries food, photography, and writing.So grab a cup of coffee, settle in, and get ready to be inspired by the delightful Lauren McDuffie.TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS:Stephanie [00:00:15]:Hi. Welcome to Dishing with Stephanie's dish, and I am here with the author Lauren McDuffie, Talking With My Mouth Full , and she is someone that I'm just getting familiar with. So Lauren, welcome to the program.Lauren McDuffie [00:00:26]:Thank you so much for having me.Stephanie [00:00:28]:Yeah. Your book, Homemade-ish, I think I saw it, like, on maybe a publisher's weekly list, and then I started paging through it. And you're I I hope this, like, hits you in the right way. You're kind of, like, sort of semi homemade ish, but not exactly.Lauren McDuffie [00:00:48]:Yes. No. That's you really hit the nail on the head with that. Okay. Yeah.Stephanie [00:00:52]:I used to watch semi homemade with Sandra Lee you. In the beginning of the Food Network days, and she's kinda gotten a bad rap. What I loved about her and what I loved when I was going through your book too is just this idea that we don't have to, like, make every single thing from scratch in order to put a decent meal on the table for our family.Lauren McDuffie [00:01:16]:Right. It's just that's just true.Stephanie [00:01:19]:And it prevents people sometimes from cooking at all. This idea that cooking is so complicated and so hard. And as someone who I mean, I'm just a home cook, and I feel like that's a great space where you can sometimes take shortcuts and also knowing the shortcuts to take.Lauren McDuffie [00:01:38]:Yes. Exactly.Stephanie [00:01:40]:So your book, Homemade-ishLauren McDuffie [00:01:42]:Mhmm.Stephanie [00:01:43]:Is really lovely. And I felt like was the modern day version of sort of that idea because your food looks incredible. Your you must be a are you a a photo stylist? Because your food in your book is, like, amazing.Lauren McDuffie [00:01:58]:Thank you. Yes. I did the photography and the styling for all my books, and it's I just love that part of the process so much. So thank you for saying that.Stephanie [00:02:07]:I did laugh because you have a piece in there you, talk about, like, I just love this. This is my joy. And I'm in the middle of finishing a second book, and I'm not feeling that it's my joy.Lauren McDuffie [00:02:23]:I get that too. Yeah. That's fair. I was like, I'm all the time. So I under Yeah.Stephanie [00:02:30]:I have 35 pictures left, and I don't even wanna eat the food anymore because I'm so sick of it.Lauren McDuffie [00:02:35]:Yep. You've spent enough time with it probably. Yes. I get that. I do.Stephanie [00:02:40]:So catch my listeners up a little bit about you and who you are and your blog.Lauren McDuffie [00:02:46]:Okay. So I yes. I run a, a recipe website called my kitchen little, which I think it just turned 5, like, within the past week. So I I don't know. In blog years, that's not a baby anymore. So and and I run it as a business, which I really, I really enjoy. But prior to this website, I had a blog, which was very much a writing space. I love to write, and I started that, I don't know, maybe 12, 13 years ago, a long time ago back when food blogs were still sort of a novel thing.Lauren McDuffie [00:03:19]:Not everyone had one at the time. So I started I started that when my daughter was was a baby, and I just needed an outlet. And for me, cooking has always been my favorite sort of creative outlet. I love food. I love to talk about food, and a blog just seemed like a really nice way to gather together my creative interest with writing and cooking. And and, eventually, I fell in love with photography just by necessity because I learned that people want to see what you're talking about. Yes. So I grew a new love for that whole side of it too.Lauren McDuffie [00:03:50]:So so I had a food blog for a really long time purely as a hobby, but I I I met a lot of other people along the way who were in in food land just like me but in different ways. And, I had the opportunity to do my my first cookbook several years ago, which was kind of an homage to my Appalachian roots. And then I did another book a few years later, which is called Southern Lights. I lived in Charleston, South Carolina at the time. AndStephanie [00:04:15]:You did? My brother lives there. I love Charleston so much.Lauren McDuffie [00:04:18]:I love you. We moved to Portland a year ago from Charleston, and I was very sad to leave. But I love Portland too. So so it's it's been fine. But, yeah, I have a special spot in my heart for Charleston, and that book sort of was inspired by just my time living in, the low country and in the south, and I wanted to show off the healthier side of the southern table, which was a really fun book project. But, this book, Homemade ish, I just really enjoyed doing because I've found that a lot of my actual friends, like in my neighborhood and in my real life, are really drawn to things that are genuinely easy, truly low maintenance, and unintimidating. You know, I love a long cooking project with the best of them, something that takes all day and then I have to go out into the world to find really obscure ingredients. I like that because I'm a food nerd, and that's the kind of stuff that makes me happy.Lauren McDuffie [00:05:11]:But a lot of people, in fact, most people that I know, they're not like that. They they do, however, want to make food themselves in their home because there's a lot to be said for that, but they wanna do it with the least amount of fuss, you know, possible. And so that's really where the idea for this book came. And I also did use to watch semi homemade, and I appreciated kind of the heart of the show. The point of it made so much sense to me. So, yeah, I kind of wanted to breathe some modern new life into that concept. And because ready made foods and store bought foods have really come a long way since the nineties, and there's so much out there, that's that's really great fodder for jumping off and being creative and doctoring up into something new. And that was that's kind of the point of the book.Stephanie [00:05:57]:Yeah. So you take something that's maybe giving you a a a helping hand as it were, like pesto or deli meats or even, rotisserie chickenLauren McDuffie [00:06:08]:Yes.Stephanie [00:06:08]:And then you kinda take it the rest of the way.Lauren McDuffie [00:06:11]:Absolutely. Yeah. I think that cookbooks really serve a wonderful purpose in just giving ideas also. I think sometimes just coming up with what to make for dinner can be, you know, a deterrent in and of itself. And so I'm I'm hoping that these recipes are also fodder for people's own just riffing and and their own interpretation. So, hopefully, it'll help people see their grocery stores kind of in a new light. Like, what do you mean for me? Yeah. Yeah.Stephanie [00:06:38]:You mentioned in the book, I think it's 5, like, of your favorite products that everyone should have in their pantry at all times that you always have a meal available. And maybe it wasn't exactly 5, but I think it was pesto was 1. Yep. Curry. I think prepared curry was theLauren McDuffie [00:06:58]:paste. I love I love a curry paste.Stephanie [00:07:01]:And can you share a few more?Lauren McDuffie [00:07:03]:Sure. And I think that this list probably changes, a little bit, but for me, a rotisserie chicken is always a go to. I I tend to never get sick of finding ways to wield a rotisserie chicken because you can just do so much with them. But I think this is gonna you know, people scoff at at bagged salads sometimes, which is silly to me, but I do a lot in this book with bagged salads. I usually have one in my fridge to play on and and riff on. I think they're really valuable because it saves you time with chopping and Yeah. Procuring all of the individual things. I just there's something to be said for that.Lauren McDuffie [00:07:41]:SoStephanie [00:07:41]:Do you have bagged salad? Like, are you an Aldi person? Are you a Trader Joe's person? Are you whatever your grocery store is where you are? Because they apparently someone told me once that the bagged salads at Aldi that are $3 are really quite good, and I've never hadLauren McDuffie [00:07:57]:I haven't either. Although, I'm people I see people talking about Aldi more and more singing its praises. So I will have to check that out. That's really good intel.Stephanie [00:08:07]:I can't get past the quarter to get the cart.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:10]:Oh. Oh, yeah. I can't do that.Stephanie [00:08:12]:I'm like, come on. Like, it's a quarter, but people say it ensures that the people bring the carts back into the store.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:21]:I see. Okay. Okay. I'm just like, chargeStephanie [00:08:24]:me a dollar. I don't care. I just want I don't wanna have to fish around in my bag for a quarter.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:29]:Right. I know. That's true. I didn't know about that whole thing. Okay. That is interesting. But it's funny you mentioned Trader Joe's because I just went there last week for the first time in, like, 6 years for no reason other than that. I've moved a few times and COVID happened, and I just hadn't been in a while, and I forgot how much I love that store.Lauren McDuffie [00:08:49]:Yeah. And it it's perfect for this book because they have so many wonderful things that are already kind of made and started for you. But, yeah, I almost panic bought so many things when I went in there because I was like, oh gosh. It all looks so good.Stephanie [00:09:03]:You are my person because I'm a panic shopper. Yeah. Like, where I just and and during COVID, I mean, I have still nightmares about trying to go to the grocery store during COVID and just literally throwing things in your cart and running out. But I'm also a panic orderer at a restaurant because I want everything.Lauren McDuffie [00:09:23]:Oh, I know. I I feel you on that. I'm a little bit like that. I close my eyes and just play roulette andStephanie [00:09:29]:Yes.Lauren McDuffie [00:09:30]:That's like your dog. No. I get that. But I did I got some salads there last week to your point that were very good. So but, yeah, normally, I I grocery shop so much just for my work that it's almost a daily thing. And, I do get delivered groceries, which people think is funny because I don't always pick out my own individual this and that. But for pure efficiency sake, again, which is sort of the heart of this book, I just shop at, like, my big local supermarket and and get all my bagged salads and sundries there and, you know, use them in a pinch. They're always helpful.Stephanie [00:10:04]:Every day, what does your day look like? Like, are you already working on the next book, and is that what you're doing every day?Lauren McDuffie [00:10:11]:Yeah. You know, I, I did this book right before we moved from Charleston to Portland, and I did it really fast. For me, it was it was fast. And it didn't burn me out, but it definitely gave me a nice kind of pause in in the the cookbook making because I had a book come out a year ago as well. So I had 2 come out pretty close together, which has been really fun. But I'm just kind of enjoying sitting back a little and looking at the stuff I've made, and and I'm actually working on a non food related book, right now just to see, if that can go anywhere. So but I've been focusing a lot on my my website and growing that. I just you know, as I said before, it's past the 5 year mark, and it's really nice to see that, coming more to fruition and and doing doing pretty well.Lauren McDuffie [00:11:02]:So I've just kind of thrown myself into the to that side of things, but I'm sure another book idea will will will surface because I love making them. But, like, you you were just saying, it's a lot when you're in it. It's like, woah. I'm I why am I doing this? But it's it's great when all is said and done, but, yeah, I took a little break.Stephanie [00:11:19]:There's been a kinda trend that I've been seeing with cookbook authors and recipe developers. I'm curious if you're thinking about this at all. We have a lot of people that have launched substacks, and Instagram and TikTok are just full of recipes. And we're in some respects, I feel like have reached this, like, everything is just like this free recipe, and people just comment like recipe, recipe, recipe. Yes. And Yes. With that, which is great because you build an audience and you build a community, there are some creators that are like, wow. I'm just putting all this time, energy, and money into this thing that the books aren't making money like they used to.Stephanie [00:12:06]:Podcasts have never really made money unless you're, like, the top 20. And so we have all these creators spending all this energy, and we're all chasing, you know, the few scents that you get when someone watches something on a YouTube. So I'm wondering if, like, we're almost at, like, some of the creators, Carolyn Chambers has talked about this, about taking all of her recipes off of her website and really funneling people only into recipe ways that she can monetize. Have you thought about that at all, or do you think about that when you're working on your blog?Lauren McDuffie [00:12:41]:Yeah. I do. Because sometimes it does start to feel almost futile when you really sit back and you think of I mean, and you just summarized it really well. I go back and forth. I mean, I actually started a substack, as well, and I've enjoyed that as a separate space for me to write more creatively because no one comes to food blogs anymore, as you know, to hear hear what anyone has to say about their life. I mean, that's a that's a big joke now. You know, get to the recipe already. And so my self stack became sort of that.Lauren McDuffie [00:13:09]:I think for me, it's been motivating because my own traffic on my website has grown exponentially over the last year, really, year, maybe year and a half, and that keeps me in the game. But I do sometimes wonder and I had someone ask me just last week about, another factor, which is AI is now a part of things as well too, which is so intimidating and it makes me wonder, is that where people are just going to stop, you know, for all of their their recipes? And are we gonna become obsolete? I don't know. It's scary actually to think about it. But but I have some very, very dear friends who are full time food bloggers and are very helpful resources for me and have taught me a lot about SEO, so I which is search engine optimization, and it's sort of how to play the game with Google so that you get your content in front of all the people out there who are googling things all the time. And it keeps me inspired and motivated when I talk to other people who have found real success in this. But I don't know. To your question, it is a little bit nerve wracking and and scary to think about what's gonna happen 5 years from now. I don't really know, but I just know that I enjoy doing it and I I'm enjoying the little wins and little successes that I'm seeing month to month right now, and that's keeping me going.Lauren McDuffie [00:14:27]:And and the books, like you said, you know, I don't know many people who write cookbooks to get rich, but, it's a wonderfully legitimizing thing to have. I love having a tangible representation of of my work, and it's it's just I I love them. I love that I've that I've done them, and it's it's valuable in other ways that aren't necessarily monetary. And and it all kind of works together as this little food machine and who knows exactly where it's going, but I I'm confident and optimistic that it'll still be, there's still a place for our blogs and recipe websites.Stephanie [00:15:01]:Well and to your point, I think what is also happening, which is sort of in your wheelhouse, I don't consider myself a writer. My husband actually is a writer, So I'm pretty careful about what that looks like in that space. I am a 300 words or less person. I am a bullet pointed list. I just that's how I think, and that's what works for me. But to your point, if you have, like, talent in the writing space and having your own personal points of view, I do think that there's always gonna be room for that where people align with your vision or your values or your lifestyle choices, and they get to know you and they wanna be more in your world?Lauren McDuffie [00:15:44]:Hope so. Yeah. I think so too. I really do. That that human element of the equation is special, and I think people like it. It's it's a really nice thing. And so I'm hoping in fact, you know, I've actually made a commitment to invest more into the writing in my website even though I'm not telling you a story about my life anymore.Stephanie [00:16:05]:Right. But youLauren McDuffie [00:16:06]:can still weave your voice into how you explain food. You know, most of my my blog posts, I don't even really call it a blog anymore. It really is more of a recipe website, but there's still tons of words in there. And you could pick and choose which words you use, and I try to make mine as useful, but also entertaining and worth people's time to read, and that's one way you can separate yourself from the bazillions of other people who are doing the same thing. SoStephanie [00:16:32]:Yeah. So I'm talking with Lauren McDuffie, and her book is Homadish. Couple of other things in your book specifically that I really loved. I I don't know. I I was, was thinking about this today. I was, doing a TV segment with a friend and there was a laundry guy on and he was talking about, know, the 5 things you need to have in your laundry room. And I thought, wow. You know, there's blogs and I've got, like, kitchen essentials and you really broke it down this in in your book, some things worth noting about what you should the 13 things you literally need to have in your kitchen.Stephanie [00:17:10]:I've never seen a list so small and so spot on. So good for you.Lauren McDuffie [00:17:15]:Thank you. Yeah. I, I that list came to be because I was photographing the book, and, I realized I have I have rooms filled with props and things that I've used for years because I work as a food photographer and a stylist. But in, you know, in the name of keeping things real and, authentic, I just used the stuff that I genuinely cook with in my real life. So, yeah, it made it it made it very clear that you don't need a lot. I love minimalism. It makes me feel good, and so I wanted to kinda capture that.Stephanie [00:17:47]:Yeah. So it was a cutting board, a chef's knife, a large deep lidded pot, a large skillet, a medium lidded pot, large baking sheets, a muffin pan, which I might argue with you on the muffin pan.Lauren McDuffie [00:17:58]:Yeah. Yeah. I know. I had to sneak that in because there's 2 recipes in my book that require it.Stephanie [00:18:03]:Okay. Alright. A Dutch oven, a grater, a can opener, a large spatula or spoon, a blender, or and a strainer. And and, like, I guess because the one thing that the muffin pan is is you can't replicate a muffin pan, really.Lauren McDuffie [00:18:17]:Well, that's true. Well and I think, specifically, I was just trying to say that you can literally make every single thing in this book with just these 13 things, but I'd be willing to stretch that and say you could probably get by with cooking a lot more for a lot longer with just these things. You really don't need I mean and you're right. The muffin pan is very unique to the to the book. But, yeah, I I think in general, less is more. I'm not a big, single use kitchen tool person. I used to be, but we have moved so much. Like, my family, we've moved a lot, and that'll make a minimalist out of you.Lauren McDuffie [00:18:52]:Yeah. It had it had me. So, yeah, I wanted to weave that notion into this book because I think it's kind ofStephanie [00:18:58]:refreshing. So do you have an instant pot or a slow cooker?Lauren McDuffie [00:19:01]:I do have a slow cooker because I love them. They're so helpful, and I love a slow cooked thing. Like, we're getting into that season now, so mine's like, I've just dusted it off and it's ready to go. But, yeah, I I don't have an instant pot, and I'm sure I would like it. I mean, I'm sure I would like an air fryer. I don't have that either, and I I know people love them. But that's just me probably being resistant to one change. And then also, you know, if we move again, that's another thing I'm gonna have to pack and unpack.Lauren McDuffie [00:19:31]:SoStephanie [00:19:32]:Yeah. You don't need a air fryer. And the only thing I would say about the Instant Pot is the pressure cooking aspect is really nice, and it's a slow cooker too. Oh, yes. But there's something kinda homey about your ceramic slow cooker. You know?Lauren McDuffie [00:19:49]:Yes. And I love just I love a Dutch oven, like, old school just but I also work from home, and so I'm here to to do that. But for I used to not work in my house, and I loved a slow cooker because it just it made everything so easy.Stephanie [00:20:04]:Yes.Lauren McDuffie [00:20:04]:Yeah.Stephanie [00:20:06]:So as you're thinking about food trends and kind of new products, like, one of the, you have a recipe that's kinda like this. You know, we went through a shakshuka phase.Lauren McDuffie [00:20:18]:Yes.Stephanie [00:20:19]:Mhmm. Are there any, like, trends that you're seeing on the horizon that you're like, oh, I need to simplify that?Lauren McDuffie [00:20:28]:That's that's a great question. I well, one trend that I've literally been working on just this morning is I'm really obsessed with chili crisp, which is something I see all over the place. I like spice. And so I've been trying to think of ways in fact, I just shared in my, I think I shared in my news letter, or I'm getting ready to, ways to kind of make your own but using a store bought one as your just like with homemade ish, using it as a launch pad. So I took a chili crisp that I bought, from maybe Trader Joe's, and I turned it into a southern style chili crisp by adding something like candied pecans and a little apple cider vinegar and, like Yum. Like, so it it and brown sugar, I think, or or molasses is what it was. But, anyways, I southernized, an already store bought product, which is very much what this book is sort of all about. But I keep seeing chili crisp everywhere, and it makes me so happy because I love it.Stephanie [00:21:23]:I really wanna put that on a white bean or cauliflower or puree. I'm just hearing you talk about it.Lauren McDuffie [00:21:30]:That's the perfect idea. Yeah. That would be fun.Stephanie [00:21:33]:Do you like, some of the as I look at cookbooks Mhmm. Sometimes I see, like, that and this is why I'm probably not a very prolific person when I do this. I kind of plot along. Like, oh, I'm gonna make, you know, this, double stuffed something. And then they find 12 other ways to make the same thing, but just with different twists on it. Do you think like that?Lauren McDuffie [00:22:01]:I think I do now, but that's because I have to think strategically about how I publish recipes on and on my website, at least, because that's very that's very useful just for getting views and getting people. It's funny how how my brain splits into when I'm writing recipes for a book. It's a very different it's much freer, actually, creatively. But then, to your question, when I'm working on coming up with recipes for my, for my website, yeah, if I can split something off and offer variations, that serves me really well. So, yeah, I think my brain does work that way. Yeah. The more the merrier.Stephanie [00:22:39]:Yeah. And and I know I I'm always like, there's a reason people are doing it like this. AndLauren McDuffie [00:22:44]:Yeah.Stephanie [00:22:44]:I'm not doing it like that, but I know there's a reason why people are. And it never occurred to me that it was due to SEO, but that makes total sense.Lauren McDuffie [00:22:52]:Yeah. That's why I would do it at least. Yeah. Yeah.Stephanie [00:22:56]:Are there other cookbook authors that inspire you or that like, books that you just will never take off your shelf considering that you've moved, so you've probably pared down?Lauren McDuffie [00:23:05]:Yes. I really have. I donated some books that I'd worn pretty well. But, yes. I, I love Alison Roman's books. I I just I think the well, her food is a lot like the food that I just cook for myself, on any given day because it's very simple. It's nothing more than it needs to be, and I like that. But I really respect and appreciate anybody that truly innovates and carves out their own style.Lauren McDuffie [00:23:32]:That's really hard to do. I mean, I live in this very saturated world of, you know, recipe development and food. And so anytime someone comes along and has a very distinct and sort of fresh feeling, point of view, I just think that's great. I admire that. At it. Yeah. She's good at that. She's she's done that for herself.Lauren McDuffie [00:23:50]:So she's the first person that came to mind. And and I have her books. They're sitting out, and they have been for a long time. So yeah. Yeah. I love her.Stephanie [00:23:59]:When you is there, like, a classic recipe that you just find yourself coming back to that's maybe from your blog that you just love andLauren McDuffie [00:24:09]:Yeah. I always say my, my most, I guess, well loved and well worn recipe, it's, I love Cajun and Creole, Cuisine, and I've got just this etouffee recipe that I have been making for a really, really long time, that's got shrimp and and chicken and andouille, and it's just so good. I've made it for, I think, everyone that has ever come to my house. It's just so tasty, and it tastes better the longer that it sits. Anything that can check that box, I'm gonna automatically be a fan of. But but I think that's my all time favorite, and I love, like, a Cocoa Van, as well. In fact, I'm sitting here today working on chicken stew collection, for my website, and that's just my favorite, I think, category of of food just in general. But my all time favorite would be the this like an etouffee, like a spicy one.Lauren McDuffie [00:24:59]:Yeah. I love them, and I make them all the time. SoStephanie [00:25:02]:Yeah. And that is super southern too. Like Yep. Something that you know, sometimes I think, like, oh, do I even need to, like, tell someone a recipe for this? Like, some of it seems so obvious.Lauren McDuffie [00:25:15]:Oh, sure.Stephanie [00:25:15]:That is something and and I guess you get accustomed. Like, I can make gravy like nobody's business. Yeah. Sure. But I you know, in the Midwest, we had grew up with gravy on everything, so it's Yeah. Sort of unique.Lauren McDuffie [00:25:28]:And appreciate that. I know. I I forget sometimes how, I I assume things are just, so easy and you don't need recipes for things, but then I'll have friends who just are like, Lauren, no. That's why I wrote this book. They're just like, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. My brain doesn't work that way. And so I always equate it to the way that I am with gardening. I don't know how to do anything with plants at all.Lauren McDuffie [00:25:51]:I'm so ignorant, and so I always just try to remember, like, how I am with plants is how some people are with cooking. It's just not your you wanna do it, but you just aren't super well versed in. SoStephanie [00:26:01]:yeah. Alright. Well, I'm gonna put a link to the book, obviously, homemade ish, in the notes here. I will also, remind me of the name of your blog again.Lauren McDuffie [00:26:12]:It's called my kitchen little, and so it's just my kitchen little dot com.Stephanie [00:26:15]:It's cute. And then, I'll find your substack, and I'll link to it too. Great. And we'll go from there. But it was really lovely to spend time with you. I Right. Really think the book is clever. I felt like I knew right away people in my life that would really get a lot out of this.Lauren McDuffie [00:26:33]:Good to hear.Stephanie [00:26:34]:And, it's beautifully shot, which is also I really admire that because I'm over here with my stupid iPhone, but it's, it's beautifully shot. It looks great, and I would recommend that people buy it. I when I really sat down with it and went through the recipes, I liked it very much. It's homemade ish. Recipes and cooking tips that keep it real. And I liked your 13 things you need in the kitchen probably minus the muffin pan.Lauren McDuffie [00:27:01]:That's fair. That's fair. I get it. Alright. Thanks, Lauren. Thank you so much.Stephanie [00:27:06]:Okay. We'll talk soon. Bye bye.Lauren McDuffie [00:27:13]:Bye bye. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit stephaniehansen.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Michael Frampton catches up with renowned surfer and coach Matt Grainger to talk about the highs and lows of surfing, the challenges of big waves, and the innovations in the sport. Matt shares his experiences with heavy waves, gnarly wipeouts, and the current state of surfing on the Sydney Northern Beaches. The discussion dives into the recent swells, the changing conditions, and how they impact surfers of all levels.Matt also discusses his latest project, the "Surfer's Compass" app, a comprehensive guide for surfers to improve their techniques, mindset, and fitness. He shares the inspiration behind the app, the process of its development, and the exciting features that it will offer. Episode Highlights:Matt's Recent Surf Trip to Indonesia: Matt shares the story of his recent trip to Indonesia, where he suffered a significant head injury after a day of surfing at Macaronis. He details the moment the injury occurred, the aftermath, and the crucial steps taken to avoid infection.The Importance of Surf Safety: Despite years of experience, Matt explains how ego and overconfidence led to a dangerous situation. He emphasizes the importance of wearing a helmet in heavy conditions and the risks of surfing over shallow reefs.Injury Management and Recovery: Matt provides valuable insights into managing injuries in remote locations, including the use of bottled water, antibiotics, and proper wound care to prevent infections from coral cuts.Mobility and Strength Training for Surfers: As a coach, Matt discusses the significance of maintaining mobility and strength as surfers age. He highlights the role of a balanced training program in injury prevention and long-term surfing performance.Mindset and Longevity in Surfing: Matt touches on the importance of a positive mindset, quoting Bruce Lee on the power of words and how they influence our physical and mental well-being. He encourages surfers to stay active, eat well, and maintain a youthful outlook to continue enjoying the sport well into their later years..Surf Culture Evolution: The changes in surfing culture, including the influx of new surfers and the impact on traditional breaks."Surfer's Compass" App: Insight into Matt's development of this app, aimed at improving surfing techniques, fitness, and mental strategies.For more insights and tips from Matt Grainger:Follow Matt Grainger:Instagram: mattgraingersurf.Linkedin:: Matt GraingeFollow Michael John Frampton:Instagram: @surfmasteryWebsite: https://surfmastery.com/.Full Show Transcript:[00:00:00] Matt Grainger: I think so. You look at all the surfers now. It's all legs. Hardly any upper body. Only back and legs. You don't want any chest, and you don't want to overload the shoulders as well in your rotator cuff. Exercises are really good. So light weights on the shoulders, nothing heavy. So you can still get that mobility in your padel. And you've got the power for your back for your paddle. So a lot of the strength training is like just Olympic rings, pull ups, maybe some skin. The cat. Um, um, dumbbell pull ups as well off the bench, all that kind of stuff. And then a lot of, a lot of, um, obviously squats with the. [00:00:40] Michael Frampton: Back to the Surf Mastery podcast. I am your host, Michael Frampton, and the ethos of this show is education and inspiration for better surfing and a better surfing life. And Matt Grainger, today's guest, not only was a huge part in the inspiration for the birth of this show, but he epitomizes that ethos as well. He is in his mid 50s now, and he's still out there surfing a ton and stays fit and healthy for surfing, and also teaches others to be better surfers and better people through better surfing mindset, health and fitness, etc. Matt is just a pure inspiration in the surfing world and just an absolute frother and a rips. He rips. He's an incredible surfer and stoked to get him back on the show. And like I said, he first appeared back in episode number one. He's. This will be his fourth appearance. Uh, he also appeared in episode 30 and episode 55 as well. And, uh, without further ado, I shall fade in my conversation. My fourth conversation on this podcast with Matt Grainger from Manly Surf School. How did it happen? Was it just a freak random thing, or was it a lapse in concentration or what? [00:02:07] Matt Grainger: Yeah, it was a bit of the ego took over and ego took over. Um, we'd had. Every day was the best day ever. We had this the first swell in June. And, um, this one day just got bigger and bigger, and it had a lot of south in it. There was two swells. It was like a south swell and a bit of south west as well. So you could get a chip in, you could chip in from behind, behind the tower, and you could backdoor where you'd usually take off. So you'd get like more barrel time. And I was riding this magic six zero Psi Pro, one that I've had for about a year. Felt unreal under my feet. Been riding it for days straight. And then, um, this guy Sean came out from South Africa. He rocked up on a boat. Him and I started paddling up the reef and just trading wave after wave and making him. So just making these unbelievable tubes and no one came up there because, you know, it was pretty gnarly. So if you fell, it was like two foot deep and it was like an eight foot swell. So when Max, probably 8 to 10, you probably saw footage of Nathan Florence. I don't know if you saw some of the footage of him and he's it was like 10 to 12 foot hits that day, whereas Max doesn't get bigger, it just gets thicker. So it's probably 6 to 8 foot, but really thick, like a chokes kind of way. You get this, you can make this really nice drop and then come in with speed. [00:03:28] Matt Grainger: And just if you made it, you're fine. But if you didn't make it, that's what happened. So after five hours, I actually wasn't even tired. I was after like five hours, I was just just getting cocky and I probably should have gone in. It was more like one more, one more. And Shaun and I were trying to outdo each other, and he he actually snapped his board, his board on his last wave, and I snapped my head, but I took off, made. It made. The drop. Drop was on the foam ball. As I was pumping on the foam ball, the wave turned the corner. So kind of that south west angle of the way though, turned a massive corner. So I've just got catapulted on the foam ball and I got thrown out head first, and that's as soon as my head landed, the lip hit the back of my neck and just drove me straight into the reef, like, instantly. It was only like two foot deep. It was low tide and I just it was just like, bang. I was like, no, I got a bit on here. And then I went into worry, went into warrior mode. You know, when you when I'd said us the way, way my eyes. Okay. It's actually got a cut there as well. So I've got to cut. I got cut either side. I got cuts either side of the nose down here on the bottom of the nose as well on this eye. [00:04:43] Matt Grainger: And obviously here I have about 25 stitches here, five stitches here. And I just went I knew the session was over and I just paddled back. Everyone was like, we'll get a boat. Everyone's screaming, get a boat, get a boat! That's it. I'm like, I'm good, I'm good. Getting myself back almost on my own. You know, like one guy got scared. Good on ya. Um, this guy Hans from America. He goes, good on you, tough guy. I'm like, nah, I've got this, I got this. Anyway. So I went back and got on the pontoon and just started pouring bottled water over my head. And then I got the boat back to Max and then looked for Shaz, and she was already stitching up my brother. He had a little cut on his back. So. And then someone said,, Matt's looking for you. Cut his head and neck. And she thought,, if he's asking for something, he's in a bad way. So then she saw my head and she thought I'd cracked. I'd actually, like, fractured my skull, but it was actually bits of coral coming out of my head. .Far out. So she pulled that, pulled the bits of coral out. He got some local, which was good. We'll just put it in the carts and then pulling bits of coral out the tweezers, and then got a toothbrush for an hour and just scrubbing it. That was the gnarly part. I just had to. [00:06:01] Michael Frampton: Scrubbing and all this peroxide or iodine or something. Yeah. [00:06:04] Matt Grainger: With, um. Yeah. Just with, um. Yeah. Like light alcohol. Yeah. Just. And just so you don't kill the flesh too much. Like, not too gnarly. Um, but just getting it all out, and that's. I reckon that saved me for sure. And then obviously took about two hours to stitch up, which was gnarly. And I was just doing I've been doing a lot of breath training like coaching, apnea training. And I saw resonance breathing, which is like a second inhale six second exhale. . So just going into that just and that helped big time. That was like a three hour ordeal which could have been a long time. Felt like a long time. But it wasn't as long as I thought. And then she put like a face mask over it so I couldn't see. And then, um, yeah, The rest is history. And then I surfed the next day., you did not. Yeah I know. He taped it up. I just said, I'll get two. I'll get one. Wait, I'll get one wave. And I did some tests, like I was jumping on one leg to see if I had concussion and then, no, I'm not well in the head anyway, uh, and then I came. I wore a helmet, of course, and then I didn't surf for after that day. I didn't surf for three and a half days. And then after that I was good to go because I was on. [00:07:21] Matt Grainger: I was having, uh, four courses of antibiotics. I four, four tablets of antibiotics every day, washing it with, um, fresh water. And we're getting she was breaking up antibiotics and putting it inside the cup as well. Yeah. And she and she left a little bit of one of the gnarly cuts. Didn't do it too tight. So bits of coral would still come out if it did. There's still little bits popping out, far out. But yeah. So I'm wearing a helmet from now on when it's gnarly like that. So I went to G-land. After that we had another swell at Max and Surf Greenbush, but I had one of those soft shell helmets that Tommy Scott wears. Yeah. By, um, DMC. It's like a rugby helmet. Yeah, yeah, but they're nice and light, but they're, um. Yeah. So that that felt good. And then I wore it in g-land every surf even because I didn't want to get hit and break the cuts open anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got the stitches out after six days and they healed well. Yeah. So wow. But from now on I'm going to. If it's gnarly and low tide and heavy, I'll be wearing a helmet. Yeah. No. Fair enough. But I was lucky I didn't get concussion and brain damage or lose an eye or nose or whatever. Yeah., yeah. [00:08:32] Michael Frampton: And I mean, and any sort of coral cut infection is such a huge risk, right? [00:08:38] Matt Grainger: I reckon like, even there was a girl, it was actually a girl out in the water. She. Her name's Kat. She does immense heavy new for about six months with a with harm. So her partner and they they had a long boat with um with a solar panel on top and just go around the islands and she, she had a cut on her foot. She went to seek a cut and just had a shower. So that got that sort of told. And she told me this story like a week before. And then she got this, this flesh eating, um, microbe in her foot. And she basically went delirious and had to go to she went to Padang and their hospital was too dirty and gnarly. So the hands got her out of there, carried her onto the fast ferry, then went to Jakarta and she had like three skin grafts and then back to LA. Yeah, just from that. So that straight away I was like, I'm not getting my head touching any, any, um, any shower water. So I was just it sounds very first world, but I was just every time I wash my head, I was just with bottled water. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good tip for people out there. yeah. Yeah. Look after your carts. Yeah. Always look after my carts. Even feet. You know, I went to Chofu. First time I went to Chofu in 2000. A tiny little cuts on my feet. And it was the last day. And I was like, last day, who cares? And then I got home and I got stacked. I couldn't walk. I went to my. I went to my glands. And straight away I was on antibiotics and prednisone and it went away. But that was nasty. So it taught me a good lesson. Yeah. So get on, get on to your rep cards quickly people when you go to the tropics. [00:10:17] Michael Frampton: Yeah. You got to clean them eh. I remember I touched the reef in Arugam Bay in Sri Lanka once. Like just got this tiny little graze. Thought nothing of it. Just put like a little bit of iodine cream on it. That's all I did. And then two days later, it's just like 50 cent welt that's throbbing. [00:10:33] Matt Grainger: And I had to hit. [00:10:35] Michael Frampton: Yeah. Had to get some antibiotics. So should have just scrubbed it out with a toothbrush and done the right thing at the time. But it was such a small cut, you thought nothing of it. But they must have just been little bits of coral in there or something. [00:10:47] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah, that was one of the ones where the feeder chirps. Tiny little, like little nicks. Yeah. So, yeah, to get that tape. Yeah. So the tip from Shaz. Doctor. Shaz, my partner. Get. Take her. I always have, like, a spare toothbrush. That's clean. You can't even get it from that. If you get it from the hotel. But you never brush your teeth with it, so it's totally clean. And just scrub it. Scrub it. Um, use the little wipes. The the iodine alcohol wipes. So you do one offs and not nothing else dirty. And then just keep checking it. Yeah. And there's that. There's that tayo gin. That's pretty good from Indo. You know that Chinese, that red bottle. That's always cool. That Chinese. It's called tayo gin or the ayam. They don't use cream. She said use because it just festers in the tropics. Use the powder. The powder? Yeah. The powders of the guy. Yeah. Okay. So that's a go and then cover them up. Yeah. If you do your feet too. I always wear shoes. People give me heaps of crap in Indo because I'm always wearing. If I've got cuts, I'll put shoes on because you're walking around. You get dirt in the cuts. Yeah. So it's important if we always forget especially. Yeah. You're like, oh nah, I'll be right. Or, you know, you see so many guys just get smashed and don't even do anything. Yeah. [00:12:03] Michael Frampton:yeah. It's not worth the risk. I used to you're still out charging, catching heaps of waves. [00:12:07] Matt Grainger: Yeah, still surfing a lot. Um, pretty much surf every day. Sometimes twice. Um, got the gym. Surfer's gym. Which is good. That keeps me fit and healthy. They working on the mobility that you taught me years ago, and. Yeah, just building on that. I think that's a big key is mobility. As we get older and even the younger athletes that we coach too. I've got some pros that train at our gym and and we've got them on a mobility program. Whereas strength training and I found lately like in the last few years, like having the ability and also the strength training is huge just for reducing, reducing injury, keeping strong. Like I'm 55 this month. I don't even talk about your age too. It's really important what you say out of your mouth. You know there's a, there's a quote by Bruce Lee is like be careful what you say with your words because that's why it's called spells and spelling. Like you're saying, you hear heaps of guys walk around and go, I'm done. I'm old, I'm an old man and all this. And you're like, hey, mate. Like, no, it's all relative. Like it's it's you know what? It's time. Really anyway. You know, like just this thing we've made up, but, you know, there's biological age. And if you keep yourself fit and healthy and moving and eat well, sleep well. You can keep keep rocking till you're in your 80s, I reckon. [00:13:29] Michael Frampton: Yeah, man, I was just reading. Listening to a book, actually, about all of that. And this Harvard professor did an experiment where she got a bunch of 80 year old men, and she put them in a house where everything in the house was as if it was 30 years ago, and they were only allowed. So the TV programs, the books, the furniture, and they were only allowed to talk, talk about things as if it was 30 years ago in the present. And within a few days, their eyesight improved. Health, like blood pressure, improved everything just by just like placebo. Like extreme placebo effect. Wow. [00:14:11] Matt Grainger: That's awesome. Yeah, it's rare to get that book. [00:14:14] Michael Frampton: It's a rare book. I'll. I'll forward it to you and I'll put it in the show notes for listeners, too. I think it's called the mind body Connection or something. I'll put it in the show notes and I'll send it to you. [00:14:23] Matt Grainger: And even when I was at, um, not trying to name drop here, but when I was at Nazaré, I came in, I totally led back to the harbor because he broke down. It's quite funny. Like it was a big day. Like 60 foot. Perfect. Nazaré. And I was with Lucas Pereira, who's from Mavericks, who trains with me. He was towing with me on that. We were just shifting partners all day. And then I said, you lead like I don't even know lead any way from then. And I said, you make leads out to sea doing nothing. We should go check on him. And he's like, yeah, right. So we hammered out the lead and he goes, yeah, I ran out of fuel, guys. And you're like, why? He goes, I was having too much fun. You know, every time the beeper light came on the warning signal that was low on fuel, I just turned it off. And because it was a really good day and it was a really good Nazaré, like, clean 60 foot faces and whatnot. Anyway, so I, we hooked up my ski to his ski and towed him back to the harbor. And we got back to the, um, got back to the wharf, and I was just chatting to him about how we've got a gym and I've been following what he does working XPT programs, and I do a lot of breathwork, but I really like breathwork. [00:15:36] Matt Grainger: And and I said, yeah, yeah, we don't we don't talk about age, you know, in our gym because what you said the word, don't you ever say that word in front of me again. And he got really gnarly. And I was like, okay, man, settle down. And um, so it's there's a lot of truth to it. Hey, I see, like, Chaz is, um, she's my wife. She's over 60, and she's getting better because she only started 20 years. And there's guys at the beaches that used to rip when they were 20, and they've given up at 50, or probably given up at 50 because it's in their mindset., my knees and stuff and my back stuff. And you're like, well, what do you do about it? Do you um, do you do any mobility or you know, what are you eating? What are you how are you sleeping? Or you know, I don't know. They're like, I don't know, you just like, okay. So yeah, it's funny isn't it? And I think I think we were lucky our age like we've, we've been introduced to a lot of stuff. And if you're curious about it, which you are and I am, there's so much stuff you can learn going down that rabbit holes. [00:16:41] Michael Frampton: yeah. It's never ending. Kind of. [00:16:42] Matt Grainger: Ten. The crew ten years before us, probably a lot of them missed out on that eating poor food, poor movement. Um, yeah, I think it's good. I've got the hoop. I've had the hoop for, like, uh, probably five years now. I find that's really good because I'm. I'm really diligent about my sleep. It can be gnarly some days, and it gives you a bad sleep score. You've got to kind of let that go, and not even your day is ruined. Because I know some athletes who will like that, and they're like, I had to get rid of it because it said I had a bad sleep score and I'd have a bad day. I'm like, no, no, you got to get past that. But sleep is huge. Hey, like and probably read that book by Matthew Walker that was, you know, everyone knew how important sleep was. You know, we cure cancer and all sorts of ailments. Balance. Yeah. So yeah, they'll always I try to have a little nap in the Arvo if I get time. Yeah. Try to have a nap every Arvo. And I think it's good to have a nap if I have the luxury, because you're just not talking. You're not thinking. You're just having a little break from the world and then back into it. Have a training session at the gym with the crew and then dinner in bed again. So that's my little routine. Yeah. And not being and not used to have to always wake up super early or to plan that I ought to be up early and out there for stuff. But if now if the waves aren't that good, I'm not going to get up early just to punish myself for the early just for the sake of being the first guy out there. So now, because I've found on the sleep on your sleep scores, when you do actually sleep that extra hour in the morning. Yeah. You get a lot of benefits. It's crazy. And if you do go to bed early. Yeah. Mm. [00:18:18] Michael Frampton: Does does is surfing the main motivator for you to stay fit and healthy? [00:18:23] Matt Grainger: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like I couldn't give a stuff like what I look like. I just want to actually be able to catch waves and still be able to surf. My brother and I just went to Macaronis together and we were both chatting that we probably surf better now than we were in our mid 20s, just because the boards are better. We've got more knowledge and we've kept our bodies good. Yeah. Yeah. So we've had no we've had no serious accidents though which is lucky. you know obviously head knocks and all that kind of stuff but nothing like haven't broken any major bones like bony broken hands and a few things like that, but not, you know, haven't broken a femur or anything, you know. So some guys obviously are disadvantaged if they have a major injury but haven't had any major injuries. And then now I've realized I used to always think when I was have had a niggle like a, like a niggling hip or, you know, you had to go to the chiropractor and you had to do this, you had to do and now you can kind of push through it and move through it. [00:19:24] Matt Grainger: I found that like. And if it's really serious, obviously go and see a physician, which is good. and you can get a really good massage or just to break that tissue down. But I found now you can move through pain and throughout the whole day like not, you know, everyone thinks, I've got to train for an hour and that's it. So I don't do it. You know, you can do little snacks like ten minutes here, you know, ten minutes in the morning, another ten minutes at lunchtime, another two minutes here, and then another two minutes and eventually kind of work through it. I remember when we were working together, you were pretty onto that early in the early days. Good diets. I love I like got into my fasting, which is good pretty much two meals a day. Love the bone broth. I'm doing a coffee, obviously. Black coffee, a little bit of coconut oil. So, yeah, that's just all these little hacks that we're learning. Just helping along the way, I reckon. [00:20:21] Michael Frampton: Yeah, but you've got that motivation. You want to keep surfing, you want to keep going to Indo and that's what. Yeah. That's what get you. Okay. No I'm not going to have that donut. I'm going to and I'm going to go to bed early because I want to I want to go and get barreled at Indo like. [00:20:36] Matt Grainger: no, it's such a good motivator. Yeah. And and it's, it keeps you young. Yeah. It keeps you young and young in the head too. And looking at boards that, you know, I'm still riding shore boards and my short boards like a five, five, nine. And I've got A53 Bobby quad that I ride in the wave pool. Yeah. So I can still ride short boards. yeah. And just having that and and the boards have gotten so good. Now, you know, just the rockers and the things all the shapers. And I remember Mike, Michael Ho was talking with his son Mason. I saw in an interview that he said, oh, dad, why do you think you're ripping so much now? And he goes to the boards and Michael's like, doesn't care. You know, he just he doesn't have Instagram or Facebook. He's just surfing and I've I've seen Coco out in the water when she's in Indo or here and she said, yeah pops. Just he just the proper. So he's, he's, he's not thinking about how he's 60 and he's charging you know. Yeah he's right. He's got, he's got new blades and getting tubed out back door and ripping on the backside at Alma-Ata and things like that. But yeah, that's the motivation is surfing. Yeah. And it's, it's such a fun sport. And I just always say to people, it's a puzzle. [00:21:51] Matt Grainger: You know, you every time you go for a surf, you're trying to work out that puzzle. It doesn't matter if it's one foot onshore or it's 20 foot bommies or it's crazy tubes in Indo, you're still trying to figure out how you're going to paddle in. How are you going to get to your feet? How are you going to generate speed? Is it a straight down drop? Is it a knifing drop? Am I going to get in my front foot early? All these little things that just come into play from all those years of experience, and you're trying to work out that puzzle, and then it's one foot. You just want to go out and do one big turn on a one footer and you're happy. So that's what keeps me motivated. Some days, even if it's crap, I'll still go out for like three waves and just I'll get my three waves and go to work and train. And I've got the training to, I've got rid of the cardio. So I'm sort of not really doing the cardio so much now. It's just strength and movement because if you do a good movement flow, you can get good cardio from that anyway. Yeah, I forgot my heart rate monitor and you're actually getting flexi, whereas you don't want to get stiff and then just doing the right strength training. [00:22:53] Matt Grainger: So you look at all the surfers now it's all legs, hardly any upper body, only back and legs. You don't want any chest and you don't want to overload the shoulders as well in your you know, the rotator cuff exercises are really good. So light weights on the shoulders, nothing heavy. So you can still get that mobility in your paddle. And you've got the power through your back for your paddle. So a lot of the strength training is like just Olympic rings, pull ups, maybe some skin. The cat. yeah. dumbbell pull ups as well, off the bench, all that kind of stuff. And then a lot of, a lot of,, obviously squats with the barbell, goblet squats, front squats, split squats, all that kind of stuff. It's super important, I reckon. So getting that mobility and doing the weights and getting that connection and feeling when you're doing the weight, not just doing it for the sake of it, like doing those reps and really thinking about that rep and just getting your body in those positions that you could do in the water on land. So when you go out there like a martial artist, you're you're ready to go. You've drilled it so many times it becomes second nature. Yeah. [00:24:01] Michael Frampton: No, strength training is so good. It's also for like strength training gives you it increases your body awareness actually, and just increases your maintains your bone density. And it's just it's so helpful. And if you're doing it do upper body. Lower body. It's it's about as doesn't get any more hard of a cardio workout than doing like a strength training circuit if you want to, you know, get the heart rate up. [00:24:26] Matt Grainger: What sort of work? What sort of stuff are you doing these days, like in your regime? [00:24:30] Michael Frampton:. Mine's so I had I've got,, I had ACL surgery in my early 20s and it's now almost, you know, bone on bone, basically. So a lot of my, a lot of my training is just keeping on top of that. so like, slow moving, heavy stuff with,, you know, have you seen the knees over toes guy? [00:24:55] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah. He's awesome. [00:24:56] Michael Frampton: Hey, backwards walking on the treadmill and just. Yeah, following some of his stuff. Uh, and just to keep the legs strong. Because it's interesting. Because they say it's bone on bone, right? And it can get like that, but your cartilage is gone. Your cartilage doesn't really come back. But there is scar tissue forms where the cartilage was. As long as that scar tissue is there, you're fine. If you do too much stuff and that scar tissue wears away. So if you do too much volume and you don't allow that scar tissue to to heal and reform and the fluids to come back, then it can be bone on bone, you get a real sore joint. But so now, as long as I keep the volume of what I'm doing on the knee, it's fine. You can actually you can actually go. [00:25:39] Matt Grainger: How many reps? [00:25:41] Michael Frampton: Actually, I would just sort of more like six reps. Only a couple of sets. But you know, because I've got a history of strength training. I know the form. I'm strong, I know what to do. But a backwards walking on the treadmill and some and lots of balance work as well, because it's actually those small little twitching movements in the joint that do the most damage. So if your balance is on point and your joint is nice and stable, then it's one of the big things as well. So keeping the balance, like standing on one leg with your eyes closed. Little things like that. Yeah I do. [00:26:16] Matt Grainger: I love the pendulum jumps with the, you know, the pendulum jump. So it's a one legged jump. Yeah. and we'll do that. More eyes closed as well. Yeah. When I coach a lot of the athletes as well, like before, they were competing, like, I'd say, like they'll do five jumps, eyes open, and then the last five closed. And it helps for that body awareness, you know, for late drops and. yeah, no big drops out of the lip and being aware of where their body is. Yeah. Yeah. And I even did it when I crack my head to check if I had concussion, I was like, yes, I'm fine. You know. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a doctor. But if you can jump one legged with your eyes closed, you pretty much. And you're fine. You don't have concussion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:03] Michael Frampton: No, I do a bit of sprinting. Sprinting as well. Sprinting is really good for you. So I do a bit of that and I still do like the bodyweight gymnastics style strength training as well. Still doing that. Following a guy called, uh, Nardi. Oh, man, I can't even pronounce his name. Nardi Orejuela or I can't remember how to pronounce it, but it's functional performance training. He's doing a lot of really unique stuff. He's worth a follow. He's pretty out there with some of what he says, but he's also got some really interesting tips. A lot of, you know, not necessarily heavy weights, but functional, functional stuff. Just he's worth a follow. [00:27:39] Matt Grainger: Cool. yeah. [00:27:40] Michael Frampton: And just keeping on top of the diet, diet and sleep, man, that's like you mentioned, man. Just keeping a clean diet, getting enough sleep and giving a good balance of rest and stress. [00:27:49] Matt Grainger: Because, yeah, life can get stressful, but it's only what you make it really like. But yeah, if you if you sleep well, if you have a good sleep, you can conquer anything. Really. Hey, I'll find two. The shoulders are important. Like the rotator cuff muscles. Important to keep that on top of that. Just like maintenance work like prehab, like lightweights, like 10% of your body weight, just getting in all those different angles because you do you can, you know, when you're, you know, those days when you're paddling super hard trying to make that wave where it's hollow, you're going to put a lot of stress on the shoulder joint. And I've had seen so many mates like you look at you got to look at your mates who had surgeries, you know what I mean? Like, it's always so, shoulders, knees and hips if you look after those. And spine pretty much ahead of the game. Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:40] Michael Frampton: Hanging dude. Hanging for your shoulders. Really good. [00:28:45] Matt Grainger: Just hanging. Awesome. [00:28:46] Michael Frampton: Active and passive. Hanging. And, I mean, I'm lucky. When I was living in the US, I did. I did three different DNS courses., yeah. [00:28:55] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember you doing that. Yeah. [00:28:57] Michael Frampton: And so I do a lot of that sort of rehab style training still. And that's really good for shoulders and and core that helps keep my shoulders in check. [00:29:07] Matt Grainger: I remember, I remember you got injured and I did the Ido portal course. Yes, I remember you did. Yeah, I think you did your hamstring right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And I was a day before and he said, Matti, can you do this? And I went, yeah. And did a whole week with it. [00:29:22] Michael Frampton: Yeah. That's right. [00:29:23] Matt Grainger: Yeah. He was massive. It was massive on hanging. Yeah. And you know, the ring and the rings too. Yeah. And I find the rings or rings are better for a surfer too. Like doing chin ups, pull ups on a ring because you get that nice. Like you get that movement in the shoulder joint where it's just a straight bar. You don't really get that movement because we actually reach out and rotate our shoulder as we paddle. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it was it was pretty. It was an interesting guy. Cool guy. Full on. Yeah. He is. Yeah. But yeah, I learned a lot. Yeah. [00:29:59] Michael Frampton: cool. Are you still doing ice baths? [00:30:01] Matt Grainger: Still doing that. [00:30:02] Michael Frampton: Yeah. [00:30:03] Matt Grainger: And our boss. And so on. Got an ice bath in the backyard and a sauna, which is lucky. And we got two at the gym now. We got two saunas and two ice baths. Wow. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Everyone loves them. Yeah. Everyone's created a little community there. Yeah, yeah. It's awesome. [00:30:21] Michael Frampton: What about LA? Have you looked into Light Health? [00:30:24] Matt Grainger: I have seen it. I haven't really done it personally. And it just looks it looks pretty interesting. It's just a matter of time and money. Yeah. In our in our sauna. I do have some infrared, but, like, not, some lighting, but, you know, it's not huge. Have you been looking into it? Well, it's it's just really interesting. [00:30:42] Michael Frampton: There's this guy, Jack cruise, who's been on about it for years, but now that there's sort of like 20 years, but now there's all these scientific studies coming out proving his theories right about how important, sunlight exposure is for health and how it turns on certain genes like the Pomc gene and and how if you're exposing yourself to too much blue light after the sun's gone down, how that affects blood sugar and circadian rhythms. And but if I mean, if you're getting up and going, surfing every day and getting to bed on time, it's funny, that's all. [00:31:14] Matt Grainger: Like Huberman and all that, like, yeah, they say go out and play, you know, go get the sun. Yeah. And, I, we live on the East Coast here, so every early surf, you're like, looking into the sun exactly in the morning. You know, you're blinking, going oh. And, you know, different on the West Coast. Yeah. If you go to bed at the right time. And I try not to look at my phone before I go to bed. So, Yeah, I just try to banish that, put it away because. Yeah, that's a bad habit, isn't it? Just before looking at the screen, try to look at computers as well. So onto that in that way. Yeah. Yeah. You can just go. Yeah. Just basic stuff. Yeah. Keeping those circadian rhythms. Yeah. Haven't done the glasses or anything like that. Like the. [00:31:58] Michael Frampton: The blue blocking glasses. Yeah. [00:32:01] Matt Grainger: Dave Asprey and whatnot. [00:32:02] Michael Frampton: Yeah. Yeah, they get into it a lot. They go hardcore on everything. [00:32:06] Matt Grainger: They go hardcore. I'm like, no. How am I? It's none of them. Don't you think there's a fine line between how much time you got in the day and. [00:32:15] Michael Frampton: exactly. But I mean, David Beckham and his mates, they're spending a lot of money on, like, days. Dave Asprey has a goal to live to 120. I think he might have even said 100, 150. But like and be healthy and functional at that age. So he's making sure that, you know, every day he's doing as much as he can. So those guys are going. I don't know. [00:32:38] Matt Grainger: I don't know if I want to live that long. Yeah. It's damn sad. You know what I mean? Like, you kind of want to just die normally. You know, like. [00:32:45] Michael Frampton: With dignity. Yeah. [00:32:47] Matt Grainger: Dignity? Yeah. Like you don't have to go. Yeah. Yeah. [00:32:50] Michael Frampton: Because if you're the only, you're the only one doing it. And like, you're you're still alive and healthy. Yeah. Friends are dead. You're like. [00:32:58] Matt Grainger: What was that? I mean, let's talk about that all the time. Yeah. They just overboard and and almost bring a lot of anxiety, I think, to like trying to keep on point. Like you're not actually like they want to get to this goal of being this age, but they're not actually having fun in the present. Like it's like I've still got to live your life. Hey, you got to still have fun with your friends, with your friends. And, you know, like, I'm not like, a total. I'm. There's no way I'm a total monk. Like, I'm. I still eat really well, but if I, you know, if I'm with with friends and family, I'm not going to go. I'm not eating that because I'm this, you know, like, yeah, I'll still want to be part of the group, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's not going to kill me. Yeah. I don't want to have a good time with with my friends. I'm not going to be that guy that's like, oh, no, I don't do that. Because, I want to live to 150. [00:33:46] Michael Frampton: Exactly. Yeah. I'm going to go to bed at 8:00 on Christmas Day because you want to live to 150? [00:33:55] Matt Grainger: You know, it's kind of like. Yeah, it's counterintuitive. Really? [00:33:59] Michael Frampton: Yeah. [00:34:00] Matt Grainger: What about if you get to whatever, you get hit by a car? Exactly. You know. Exactly. I don't mean that in a bad way.. You got it. Still? Yeah. And it's funny, like, all this grounding, you know, we we hardly wear shoes in was, you know, you hardly wear shoes when I, when I hang out with you. Yeah, but hardly shoes. Oh, Maddy, you're wearing shoes today. That's weird. I'm like, oh, well, I had to go to remaining shoes. [00:34:27] Michael Frampton: I hate. [00:34:28] Matt Grainger: It. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:34:30] Michael Frampton: No, but that's the thing. All the stuff that's coming out in the latest health stuff, all these guys, it's what we do anyway. Especially as surfers. We get early morning sun. We're getting lots of grounding work because we're surfing in the ocean. That's the best way to get your. Your grounding done is in the ocean or walking on the sand in bare feet. We're getting it done anyway. But it's just interesting, all these studies coming out and and proving that. [00:34:55] Matt Grainger: You can you can buy a grounding mat and walk outside. Put your feet on the on the cold grass, you know, like, the cold sand. Like I'll be surfing the wave pool a lot lately and it's super fun. But you still don't get that, feeling of the energy or the ocean. Like, you know, it doesn't matter if your body surf, surf, body board, whatever. If you dive in the ocean for a swim, you always come out feeling amazing, don't you? Yeah. Just from it's from the negative ions though, isn't it. [00:35:24] Michael Frampton: Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah. [00:35:25] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah part of it. Yeah. And just maybe the salt, the energy of the waves just being in nature and. Yeah, it's funny, you can go on the wave pool and you have a good time. You don't get that buzz of that feeling on your whole body from the natural waves. Yeah. And the salt and all that. Yeah. [00:35:46] Michael Frampton: How much time have you spent in the wave pools? [00:35:49] Matt Grainger:there's a new one in Sydney now. Sydney and I. Every Thursday I teach a fitness class to the staff. I've been doing that for the past six weeks. So I go out every Thursday and I make sure I serve from 4 to 5, and then I run the class at 530 to 630. So that's pretty cool. Like, I'll ride my little five three Bobby quad and, get about 20 waves. And then we ran our we ran a pretty cool course the other week. We did a get ready for your master class. It was like an endo masterclass clinic. So we taught people how to ride left tubes. So we had the expert mode, which is just a barrel. It's pretty cool. You take off, you can do a Rio or just a set up turn and get this nice tube. That's a pretty cool tube. Like the barrel is wider than it is high. Yeah, you got to get quite low in the tube. And then it kind of turned the corner a bit like macaronis. So we did um, we did about 30 minutes. I broke down all the best surfers in the world getting tubed on the TV screen have had eight participants, and so we broke that down for placement, for backhand front side, you know, getting and then we did movement patterns like mobility patterns to open up people's hips and, and ankles, because that's pretty much what you need when getting low in tubes and most tube riding. [00:37:08] Matt Grainger: So we did that, we went and surfed for an hour. Everyone got about 12 waves. And then we there's a I it's crazy. They film this. I called Flow State on the left and the right, but we're only on the left. You come in and it's got all the clips of you. So I got a coaches password. So I went through everyone's clips and broke down what they were doing. Right. What they're doing wrong. Yeah, it was rad. And then we had had lunch and then we did apnea training. So then we went into the leisure pool, which is heated because the wave pool is only about 11 degrees at the moment. So yeah, it's quite it's quite cold. Yeah. So they just pulled 28. So we, we taught them the science of breath holding. Then we went and did it in the water. And then she did a chat on our endo. What's it like in your first aid kit? And, you know, rough cuts? Yeah, it was awesome. That was a that was a full day. It was fun. [00:38:00] Michael Frampton: All right. So I did. [00:38:01] Matt Grainger: That., had some fun days with the Surface Gym crew. We'll book out the pool for two hours. And so two different modes, one the tube, the expert modes and tube. And they've got advanced, which is half turns, half tube. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Good fun. And then Isabella Nichols two. She'll fly down and we'll I'll coach her for two days before an event. So before Huntington, we tested out two of the boards. See what you actually got. Two brand new boards of the HD and then obviously had more, but she had these two boards that she thought were going to be the ones. And they were so pretty cool to work that out. Yeah, we did some also some work before Bolido. So it's not a it's a good coaching tool. Yeah., because you got you guaranteed getting one left and right, so I'll book it. We'll book a session on the right and the left, and you're right there that she can come in and break it down each wave and go through some foot placement and hand placement stuff where you place the board on the wave and back out there. Yeah. So it's pretty cool. And you got all the footage on film as well and also got the flow state. [00:39:04] Michael Frampton: All right. It's like the driving range for surfers. [00:39:07] Matt Grainger: Yeah it is. It's the full driving range. So it keeps you fit too. Like it's actually it's a full leg workout because the way you get weaker, you've got to stay right in the pocket and push real hard with your feet and your hips. Yeah a lot of. Yeah. It's pretty interesting. Yeah. It's good. Good fun. You feel like especially in the tube major. Every time I'm just on the tube I feel like a 15 year old kid again. Like you're guaranteed a barrel. You know, you're guaranteed 15 to 20 barrels that up and. Yeah. Pretty amazing. [00:39:34] Michael Frampton: Oh, that's so good. you're still doing good. Did you. Are you still taking people to macarons as well? [00:39:40] Matt Grainger: Yeah, we've got one coming up, yeah. Next February, March 2025. We're doing. Chaz is doing the movement, and I'm doing the surfing right. Yeah, we've got two and I got a goose and Ari, who helped us as well as coaching. They're awesome guys and good coaches. Yeah. Yeah. It's rad. Yeah. So we basically surf from 6 a.m. till 1130 and there's two filmers there. So they the filmers get all the footage and then we, we break down the footage at 1:00 for about an hour, and then we'll go surfing again. And then sometimes if the waves are small, we'll do apnea training in the pool. So that's like a week, seven day classes or seven day clinics. So and then some people do two weeks. Yeah. Wow. But yeah it's super fun. And you know, we go to the Thunders as well because, uh, McKenzie's small. It's always two foot bigger up there. So yeah, it's good fun. Yeah. It's an awesome, awesome clinic because it's such a mechanical wave that goes from 1ft to 6 foot. Such a rippable wave. You know, just in the pocket. You can work on people's techniques and you see people improve real quick because they've got a running wall. It's not like a, you know, sitting right here, but sometimes you can just get close down. If it's the south swell you just got, you know, the people can only do one turn if that. Obviously if it's perfect, no swells here. Great. You know, all the all the, all the beaches are lining up. Machias is unbelievable. You can do four turns so you can really work on people's, you know how they you know how they sort of start the wave speed generation where they do their bottom turn, their top turn and good place for an upper body rotation. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. It's good fun. Yeah. All right. That's it. [00:41:29] Michael Frampton: They all filled up. Clean up? [00:41:31] Matt Grainger: Uh. Not yet. No, I think there's still some spots left. Yeah. So they're filling macaroni, doing the marketing right now for next year, but yeah, they get. Yeah. We got some good numbers this year. I think next year is going to be even better. Yeah. So it's a good gig? Yeah. It's good fun. Yeah. And, you know, good, good bonding with people. Everyone's there to learn and have a good time. [00:41:51] Michael Frampton: I'll put a link to to details about that. Show notes. [00:41:55] Matt Grainger: Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. [00:41:57] Michael Frampton: You guys had a big swell there a few days. Yeah. We had. [00:42:01] Matt Grainger: Yeah. Last week. Uh, last. Yeah, we had a massive swell. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. Only bummer had really strong southerly winds. So we, being the captain, towed the car and naughty bomb in the mornings when it was southwest. And then the wind just came up and blew it out. The dead man's was on. Yeah. We got to surf that on our own. Dead man's pumping. Have a look at that. [00:42:27] Michael Frampton: I saw the footage. Yeah, some of it, but it was. [00:42:30] Matt Grainger: It wasn't many people making them. Hey, it looked pretty gnarly. How cool is it? If you have a look at, uh, this is living by Carl how often he flew. He flew all the way over for it. [00:42:41] Matt Grainger: He does that. does that blog and, Yeah, he did. He didn't even make a way. Like a proper big one. He didn't make one way. He broke in the board, got smashed. He was coming this way. Gnarly. Cuz it's kind of like the heavy cake. Then it's got a step. Yeah. And if it doesn't open up, it just collapses on you. Yeah. And you don't know when you're paddling in. You're going to be a good one or not. there's one guy called Sam Jones. Got a cracker like he made. He actually made a really good one. But the rest of the crew. Yeah. Pretty much got smashed. There was a lot of carnage. Choo choo. Kelleher did a big airdrop. Dislocated his elbow joint., he got that? no. He just airdropped and then went back over the fall. Popping the elbow. Yeah, I'm kind of done with that wave. I know it's pretty gnarly backside. You just be looking for an injury and it's crowded now. Like I have to surf it on my own with, like, you know, 4 or 5 people. And now it's everyone's out there trying to get their photo taken or their clip, which is cool. You know, they're all younger and there'll be 30, 40 people out on a semi-closed reef that's 10 to 12 foot. [00:43:52] Matt Grainger: So we can get the jet skiing off the off the car and step on it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And then we can check out Makaha, you know, go. Makaha. German banks, North Bay cruise around being the captain. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. You got to be ready to go for dead man's like I've. I've snapped boards out there. I've had 30 sea urchins at my 40 out there once. I just went over the falls and landed feet first. And that was pretty gnarly. Injury. Went to hospital. Like, I, I couldn't walk, so I had to paddle back to North Steyne, back to the school, and drove up to the hospital. And they couldn't even get they left about four in there. And then three stayed. Three stayed in there for about three months. And and I Right when I popped out about that big, like three months later when I went snowboarding. gnarly. I remember Barton Barton Lynch actually got. He had to go to surgery with sea urchins out there. Scotty Romaine broke his back about four years ago. Out there, captains broke ins, MCL, PCL. Just copy breaking your ribs. Yeah, that's a good way to get injured. But it's if you're young, young buck and you want to charge, go for it. [00:45:03] Michael Frampton: Well you gotta you gotta pay to play sometimes. [00:45:06] Matt Grainger: Yeah. Yeah yeah. The, the the risk out there that have outweigh the rewards. But yeah there's some really there's some good surfing going on. Some of the young guys the young guys in pressure like so grueling. Lex O'Connor, some of the young dudes are like 18 year olds just charging it and making barrels, too. So. But this last world was pretty wonky. But we had a real good swell a week before that. Like a beast or a swell like Narromine was off its face, mouth narrower. We had like nor'west winds and eight foot barrels and that was that was pretty fun. So yeah, that was a more user friendly. And it was pumping north out or the whole East Coast. Yeah. On the Sydney Northern Beaches was going off. So yeah that went that went for three days. So we've had a really good year. Last year was about like a pretty bad winter. Yeah. To be here for Sydney and the sandbanks are good because we had that big swell. But yeah, pretty pretty stoked. What about yourself? Any waves your way? [00:46:05] Michael Frampton: Some. Not. Not too many. We've had a shit winter, actually. We've had heaps of. Usually you get the southerly swells here where I'm staying at the moment, but,, I've just been heaps of northerly nor east swells of low period for some reason. Almost like summer had weird weather patterns here. The south swells that come through have heaps of west in them, so they just go straight past. I don't know. [00:46:27] Matt Grainger: And the baits are good. [00:46:28] Michael Frampton: There's there's points and river bars around here. So we just need a decent high, long period swell and it turns on, but it still goes surfing but. And get waves and had a great summer. Great summer with the kids. Yeah. [00:46:42] Matt Grainger: Awesome. [00:46:43] Michael Frampton: But the winters. Yeah. Average winter here. And it's pretty. [00:46:47] Matt Grainger: Crazy. We've actually got,, the water's cold, like, it's, 14 degrees. Yeah. So sometimes it'll be. It'll be 20 in winter usually. But this year it's cold. Yeah, but the good. Yeah. So every morning pretty much offshore. So that's kind of cool. Yeah. With this with this cold water being lucky. Yeah. Random. [00:47:06] Michael Frampton: The water here, the water here is warmer than usual. I can still go surfing in A23 at the moment. No way. Yeah. The water's so warm here. It's just all these east and northeast flow. It's keeping the water warm. [00:47:19] Matt Grainger: That's pretty cool. Yeah, we. The wave pools. The wave pool. Actually, the concrete holds the cold. yeah, I bet I pulled about about 1111. [00:47:29] Michael Frampton: That's 43 bodies business. [00:47:31] Matt Grainger: Yeah, yeah, I just I don't wear booties, but I the guy's wearing gloves and hoods and just make sure you paddle out real quick and keep yourself warm. But yeah, last year we were last year we went to, Mexico and I. Yeah. So that was cool., but this year I'm just going to hang back. I've been building this app called The Surfer's Compass, so I want to get that out by the 1st of September. Hopefully I'll be doing that for a year. So just breaking down all the best surfers in the world. Women and men take offs, paddling, bottom turn, top turns, cuttings, airs, tubes and then throwing in movement patterns that will help those maneuvers and then breathwork and mindset. Yeah. So that's been a fun little project. [00:48:15] Michael Frampton: All right. [00:48:16] Matt Grainger: So yeah be working on that. I was helping with the graphics and Joe Barker with all the edits. But yeah, that's keeping me busy. It's like a, you know like you've done a lot of projects and you just want to get it done? Yeah. I mean, I'd want to do it right, but we were told we probably could have had it done in May, but I want to do it perfect. So yeah, hopefully we get it out by. Yeah. So I got like Ethan Ewing, Mick Fanning and Kelly Slater, Jeff Gilmore, Aaron Brooks, Isabella Nichols. [00:48:42] Michael Frampton: Parker cool. Look forward to seeing it. [00:48:44] Matt Grainger: Yeah. So that's what's keeping me busy. Yeah, yeah. And all the other stuff. The surf school and and the surf gym. [00:48:51] Michael Frampton: And all the barrels. [00:48:53] Matt Grainger: All the barrels. [00:48:54] Michael Frampton: Oh, sweet. You have to let let us, let us know when it's when it's released. And I'll spread the word. [00:48:58] Matt Grainger: Sure. That'll be awesome. Yeah. But yeah, you can't beat a barrel, can you? I always say to people, once you get it, why don't you get tubed? You're done. You won't be able to hold a relationship or a job and. [00:49:09] Michael Frampton: Yeah, it's addictive. Yeah. Healthy addiction though. It's on my list. I'll probably sit down with the boys this evening and we'll watch the replays and stuff. Yeah, one. [00:49:18] Matt Grainger: Of the local boys did really well, so yeah, it's pretty, pretty good result. You got to check it out. Yeah, it's actually awesome spectacle. How was,. Did you see the the big day? Yeah. [00:49:29] Michael Frampton: Yeah. No, I watched that with. [00:49:31] Matt Grainger: Joe and Ramsey. Booker. Joe, do you reckon they were charging harder than the WSL because there was more on the line, like, you know, medals and, like, they always charge in the WAFL that they go hard as. But some of them are not the nailing. Some of the Wipeouts were heavy weren't they. But yeah. [00:49:47] Michael Frampton: And also. [00:49:48] Matt Grainger: Connor O'Leary. [00:49:49] Michael Frampton: Though also like they had different camera angles too to the. So I don't know if they had even more expensive cameras to it just. Yeah different like just a higher level production as well. I think that helped. but certainly in the Medina it was just always everything Medina does just looks effortless, doesn't it? [00:50:06] Matt Grainger: It's that good, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. He's amazing. Yeah. He's. He's,. Yeah. There. Ethan Ewing. Yeah. They're solid as those guys. But it was good seeing the other guy from Peru. Yeah, it was Cabrera, wasn't it? Yeah. Like,. Yeah. Just seeing the other countries. That's pretty good, isn't it, about the Olympics, like, cared a lot more diversity. Yeah. I mean, I love the WAFL, but especially when they do the cup after the cup is just too much familiar., everyone's too familiar. You know, you go,, I've seen this heat before, even though it's in a different location. But it's good when you get wild cards and that variety and you just think,, I've seen another angle of surfing, you know, like, wow, this guy's insane. [00:50:48] Michael Frampton: All right. Matt. Hey, it's just gone 3:00. I better go in there. I got to do school pickup now, but thanks for thanks for doing the show again. Really appreciate it. [00:50:57] Matt Grainger: Awesome, mate. Awesome, brother. Take it easy. [00:51:00] Michael Frampton: Good to catch up. [00:51:01] Matt Grainger: Good one. Hopefully. See you when you come to Sydney. [00:51:03] Michael Frampton: That'd be great. Yeah. For sure. We'll be over there at some point., yeah. Keep me in. Keep me in the loop. Yeah, yeah. Keep me in the loop with the app. So. Yeah. Excellent. [00:51:13] Matt Grainger: That'd be cool. Awesome. Awesome, mate. [00:51:15] Michael Frampton: Thank you for tuning in to the Surf Mastery podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Also, the best way that you can help support and grow the show is to subscribe, rate and review on whatever app you're using, be it Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and of course, we are now on YouTube, so you can watch the video version of this podcast on YouTube. Be sure to check that out. Also, go to Surf mastery.com for more surfing tips via the blog. You can also book in a personal online surf coaching session with me, also at Surf mastery.com. There are two free downloadable PDFs, one with the five best tips from this show, and one the five best exercises to improve your surfing. So go to Surf mastery.com on the home page there. You'll see them. Until next time, keep surfing. Matt Grainger on the Surf Mastery Podcast

If you gotta ask I FEEL LIKE YOU ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER

In this episode Anne Ganguzza and Lau Lapides discuss health and business transformations, sharing personal journeys and business changes. Together, The BOSSES dissect the essence of finding a compelling 'why' to fuel profound changes and prevent old habits from creeping back. They navigate the intricate process of embracing a new identity after such shifts. The conversation takes you through the peaks and valleys of goal setting and the importance of evolving these goals to sidestep complacency and promote growth. Whether you're toasting to recent victories or charting the course for your next big achievement in voiceover or other business ventures, this talk is peppered with inspiration. Tune in and let the shared experiences and guiding wisdom propel you toward seizing new opportunities and savoring the ascent to success and fulfillment. 00:01 - Intro (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss, a V-O boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:19 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the V-O Boss podcast and the Boss Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza. I'm here with the lovely Lau Lapides, my very special boss co-host. How are you, annie? I'm doing amazing, Lau, I'm doing amazing. How about yourself?  00:39 Wonderful, amazing as well Good, you know Lau. I've been thinking about this a lot. I mean, for me, I have gone through a little bit of a transformation over the past few months Actually, I would say year and a half. Physical transformation, because I've been trying to get healthy. I lost a little bit of weight and I was thinking about in terms of wanting to transform my habits or what I do on a day-to-day basis and transform and evolve into something that can really move me forward and progress.  01:12 I thought that we can also apply the same kind of transformation thoughts, mentality, rules maybe not rules, but strategies for our own businesses. I thought it would be a good time to talk about transformation and transforming our VO businesses, because I think it's something that it's the beginning of the year. I think it's always a good time to think about. Everybody talks about New Year's resolutions, but I don't want to talk about resolutions. I want to talk about transformation and how you can assess if your business needs to transform, if you need to evolve, and what it would look like for you to set a course or a strategy on how to transform your business, because I think our markets have shifted Lau and we need to really evaluate that and transform our businesses to evolve along with them.  02:02 - Lau (Guest) Well, that's amazing stuff. I love talking about transformation and I can't help but bringing up the fabulous frog, because the frog in Eastern culture is a representative as symbolic of transformation when you think about leaping forward. And, by the way fun fact, I'm sure everyone kind of knows this, but this is leap year, which means in the leap year calendar, you have an extra day in this year for your leaping, for your transformation, for the new calendar and thinking about wow, what am I going to do in that extra 24 hours? Right, but I mean what you have done in terms of your physical, your mental, your spiritual transformation is nothing short of like miraculous, amazing.  02:50 - Anne (Host) Now here's the question.  02:52 - Lau (Guest) Here's the question what do we do once we are transformed into something else? There's a great question. Right and how do we acclimate to that? How do we that's a wonderful question Assimilate with that, how do we, in essence, blend into the form that we want to be and, all of a sudden, are becoming Sure Now we're a new entity, right?  03:15 - Anne (Host) Yeah Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for that. I really appreciate that. One thing I will say, and I want to stress this to you bosses out there, that transformation doesn't happen overnight. Very rarely does it happen overnight.  03:28 And I will say that my transformation, my physical transformation to better health, literally was a journey, and I really had to make sure that I gave myself grace and patience with myself in order to be able to transform. And I know that, gosh, we've been in business for so long and we've been transforming our businesses for years now, and I do know that it's not a simple nor a quick process. And so I want you bosses out there to give yourself some grace and to kind of be prepared and enjoy the journey as you evolve and transform and go through it. And, yes, law, one of the biggest questions is once you have transformed, how is it that you will maintain consistency or continue to progress or continue to keep moving forward, if you want to, with that transformation? And I will tell you that for me physically because this is multiple times I've kind of been there and gotten healthy and lost weight, and so I think this time it means a little bit more to me, I think there's always that what is your why, right, what is your why? Why do you want to transform? Well, I want to be a successful voiceover artist. Well, I want to be healthy. Well, I want whatever it is that you are looking to transform.  04:44 Your why is so very important and that why can evolve over time as you are transforming, right, that why can change and I think, depending on the importance of that why to you, right, that really becomes a catalyst for being able to sustain that transformation and to make sure that it's something that is moving forward. You're not going to let necessarily, let's say, slip back into bad habits or slip back into the things that will not move yourself forward. And I am the first to tell you that I am terrified, terrified of slipping back into old habits, right, I do not want. Health wise, I do not want to slip back. Business wise, I do not want my business to go backwards, and so that, right, there is a great motivator for me to figure out ways and strategies to actually maintain and or move forward from that. So I think really understanding your purpose and your why for the transformation is key.  05:45 - Lau (Guest) So here's the question, the million dollar question what is or what was your why?  05:53 - Anne (Host) Oh.  05:53 - Lau (Guest) Annie, for doing what you did in this major transformation, powerful stage that you've been in and still are in in your process and your progress. What was this last? Why?  06:08 - Anne (Host) for you. Well, that's really a good question. So if we're talking about my health transformation, I will say that it was an eye-opener from my doctor who said Anne, you are at stroke level high blood pressure and I want you to get some blood work done. And that's just the simple facts of it which just literally scared me straight into getting blood work done. And that blood work was not good.  06:33 And as a result of that blood work, I was then diagnosed with some other health issues which then I was prescribed lots and lots of medication for. It scared me and I thought, after having been through and people know my cancer journey, I thought I'm invincible, right? Well, no, no, I had kind of slipped into some habits. There was lots of reasons. I don't want to say that all of them were excuses for poor habits. I mean, some of them were just consequences of medication, but ultimately that was a priority that my why all of a sudden became like, well, goodness, like I beat cancer. I certainly don't want this new revelation of these new health issues to take anything away from me that.  07:13 I worked so hard to build in the first place, and so that kind of just woke me up right, and I think we all kind of tend to get into those things. I know there's many, many people that are either trying to get healthy on a weight loss journey that will slip back. They lost weight, they slip back, and then they're like oh, and they beat themselves up. But I think that things evolve, as we were talking about right, your why evolves, your reasons evolve, and I think you always need to keep an eye on that and you need to really, if you want to make that change and that transformation, you have to really keep your eye on that. Why write it down and really understand what now is the strategy, what are the consequences if you're not going to be making those changes?  07:57 - Lau (Guest) And really understand that if you are serious about transformation in your business, in your life, in your inner world, your inner being one has to have discipline. You talk about habits and rituals and routines and patterns, and so do I and the importance of that, the success of people that can stay with a successful discipline, a habit, and even if you fall off sometimes the frog does fall off the lily pad and gets wet and then has to come back- on.  08:27 That's okay, but are you moving forward? Are you moving backwards and really keeping track of that, whether it's goal setting, whether it's just about your inspirations for the year, or whether it is something as grave as oh, this is very serious for my health. I almost have no choice. I have to move in that direction or I'm compelled to move in that direction.  08:47 - Anne (Host) Absolutely.  08:48 - Lau (Guest) Understanding like prioritizing. What transformations do I want to have? Will I prioritize those? Because you and I meet so many talent that they want to do 12,000 things.  09:01 - Anne (Host) Oh, yeah, absolutely.  09:03 - Lau (Guest) They want to transform everything in one day, all at once, and you and I know it's just not possible to do all at once. It really isn't. The day isn't long enough and our life isn't long enough. So, really understanding, like what is most important, where is that going to get me? What is my end game in that? Sure See, it's really. I think and I speak personally as well, because I'm a creative too, I'm an artist too. It's easy to fantasize, it's exciting to dream and get inspired, but then sometimes we fall off the cliff on the other end, because there is no real end game to some of those dreams. They just feel really good in the making.  09:42 - Anne (Host) Or it feels good in the dreaming law, right.  09:44 - Intro (Announcement) Yes, you know what I mean, and so, but when it?  09:46 - Anne (Host) comes time to putting it into action. I think that's where most people they're really looking for. How do I get motivated? How?  09:54 - Lau (Guest) do I Right and that really becomes that.  09:56 - Anne (Host) Why that priority? It's almost like you're clawing your way sometimes to get that motivation, because you don't think that for 2 and 1 half years or three years, during that pandemic, I wasn't commiserating, saying oh my gosh, I'm not feeling good, or you know what I mean. I feel like I'm so busy but I don't have time to take care of myself or my health. And really you have to be able to somehow find that motivation to start the climb. And it is a climb and it's not more than likely. It's not an easy climb. The dreaming is the easy part.  10:29 And I like how you said inspirations instead of resolutions, right, because resolutions, a lot of times people get dejected from the beginning because they make a resolution and after the first week of the new year they're like yes, I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to work out and literally that's just been something. And it's interesting because now that I've gotten healthier, now I'm on that mad terrified like, oh my gosh, I've got to maintain it. So now I'm physically working out every day, right, and the only time I have to do it is early in the morning. So literally I am like at 7 AM, sometimes 6, 30 AM and I don't, I'm tired and I literally I get on that machine or I go to Pilates and I'm like I am so tired, I almost feel sick. You know what I mean? That's how tired I am, I can't. But I push myself through it and usually you get through that lactose, burning through that lactose, and then you'll start to feel better.  11:18 But before you start getting better, boy, there's a lot of pain and it's hard. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it.  11:25 - Lau (Guest) But isn't that a great metaphor for exactly what we do in our industry is that we want to reach that zenith. We all want to reach the apex of whatever we're doing.  11:34 - Anne (Host) The first thing I thought of we want that. Yes, we want every day. We want to get work for commercial work.  11:39 - Lau (Guest) Yeah, exactly the first thing I thought of was a film I just saw about the Andes Mountains and I thought of a huge mountain like the Andes and how impossible it is to climb it. And we want to be right up on that little sliver, right up on that vista, that we can walk on the absolute top, and we say, I want to get there, that's my dream. But rather, what are the plateaus, what are the places that we have to get to in order to make it up there? And there are many stopping points, there are many resting points, there are many points where you're going to slide down, you're going to fall, you're going to roll over, you're going to stumble. And, really understanding, in order for me to get to that zenith, I have to think through and have almost a mapology of all the sticking points that could happen and how I'm going to deal with them when they happen, not if they happen, but when they happen because they will happen.  12:32 - Anne (Host) What's also I was thinking about in terms of inspiration? Right, because I thought, oh, have I reached my goal? Have I reached the place where I want to be? Have I reached the apex? No, I have to keep moving that apex Now. Does it have to be upward? I like to think it's moving upward, but I'm going to say it's moving in a positive direction, so I'm not going to lose 100 more pounds.  12:50 - Lau (Guest) Do you know what I mean?  12:51 - Anne (Host) But no, what am I going to do? Well then, maybe I okay. So now my goal has shifted right. My transformation goal has shifted, especially, let's say, in our voice ever business right? Oh, I want to do national spots, or I want to be in animation and I want to be on Cartoon Network or whatever. Your goal is right so you can have that apex. But again, where are those places that are going to get you there? And then, let's say, you ultimately get to the apex and you get that national. You get that. What are you going to do? Are you going to sit there? I'm going to say complacent in that, of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't celebrate that but I also feel as though you need to be continually evolving and moving that goal to continue transformation or continue growth.  13:35 I've always said this multiple times in the podcast, that the death of me is when I feel stagnant, when I am not changing anything, when I'm not doing anything. So in voiceover, maybe you can explore a new genre. You can work with a different coach. There are so many different things you can do. Take an improv class, right. Work up the relationship with your agent, right, like there's so many things that you can do. Yes, and what do?  13:59 - Lau (Guest) you do with the prize, with the celebration once you have it, once you get it. I once had an acting professor in grad school who talked about that. He said you know, once I reached where I wanted to reach, I got incredibly depressed. I got severely, clinically depressed. Yeah, because I reached it. I said that what else is there? Right, right? And I said there's no place but down from here. Well, we had smart colleagues that said you're wrong, your perspective is wrong. Now you need to reach the next level of where you're headed next. And remember you're not just headed north, you can go east you can go, west you can go diagonal right you can pivot in different directions.  14:38 The meter diver is going to go down south, so it's really about how you open up that framework for yourself.  14:44 I like that I like that Of success, and when you do reach a success, take the time, celebrate it. Yes, do something with it to make it real for yourself, make it count, make it something that you can apply to life, because you're going to want to move on to something else and you don't want to forget about that. You don't want to imagine that that never happened. Have you ever felt that way? I've had that many times where I've achieved exactly what I wanted to, oh yeah, and then by next week I forgot.  15:08 - Anne (Host) I did it. I forgot Exactly. You need to always celebrate that, and you're so right because I'm literally, I'm not quite at my goal right, but I'm pretty much at my goal right, and I'm like, oh gosh, now what, right, now what. And so, in reality, I needed to make a new goal. And so now I have a new goal. And now my new goal is well, okay, maybe health wise, I'm good.  15:28 I got most of my medications are. Now, you know, I don't need to take them anymore. Now I just I need to build up some muscle. This is just physically right. I need to build up muscle. So I don't have any muscle.  15:38 I got a lot of that weight had to go somewhere in my skin, said what, what, where did my skin go? It didn't disappear. So so I need to bulk up a little bit, and I love that, because I didn't feel depressed. I thought, oh God, I've done everything. And everybody says be proud and I am proud.  15:54 But I also was like, oh God, well, what do I do now? And so therefore, I will say to you law, I'm so glad you said that, because everybody that knows me knows I have all the different divisions of my business right and I always say well, it's because I can't be stagnant and I don't want to be bored. And so I decided, well, let's open up another brand, right? So I've got another brand, and people are like I don't understand how you do it. And I'm like, well, literally, I am one person, I have so many hours in the day, right, and so, yeah, am I doing a lot? Sure, but I also hire a lot of people too that can help me, right, and they're helping me to get to my transformation and my goals, and that is the way that I can do that.  16:32 - Lau (Guest) And so again keep setting goals, keep setting.  16:35 - Anne (Host) And you're right, you can go east, you can go west, you can even go south, but I think you always need to continually grow.  16:42 - Lau (Guest) That's right. And just remember with transformation comes change, and it sounds like well, obviously, but change is something that frightens us oftentimes because we like control and we like to know exactly who we are and what's coming next. So when you welcome transformation, you welcome change, and when you welcome change, you welcome the unknowing at times. So just keep that in your mindset.  17:06 - Anne (Host) And I think also there's something to ask yourself too is to really be truthful with yourself. Are you fearful of not just failure, but are you fearful of success? What will happen when you get to that successful level and that, of course, you know part of the fear of the unknown right? What will happen now that you're successful with that? Success may come like a whole new series of maybe problems or issues or things that you'll need to think about or deal with that you have not ever experienced before, and that is scary, yeah very scary.  17:39 - Lau (Guest) So as wonderful as it is and as much as we're going after it and chasing after it, we have to know that there's also a fear factor involved with transformation. And I say recognize the fear and do it anyway.  17:51 - Anne (Host) Yeah, just lean into it. I think really don't run away from it. Lean into it and just know that it's scary, no matter what.  17:59 - Lau (Guest) It's scary.  18:00 - Anne (Host) It's scary for all of us, really, and you're not alone. You are not alone, and I think that one of the reasons why I love this podcast is that we can talk about topics like this, so that people don't feel alone, because, again, we are in such an isolated business and you're an entrepreneur, and so, therefore, there are many things that are scary being an entrepreneur because it's so funny because, having come from corporate right where I was told what to do here, here's your job, this is what you do, and if you want to advance, this is what you do. And that was it. It was easy. I could take instruction. It's kind of like taking direction right.  18:35 But, as entrepreneurs, when we're trying to move forward and transform and evolve, where are we evolving to? What are we transforming to? Well, I know that. Let's just say I've had a lot of frustrated students who will say to me I've not been able to book work right, and so I've been here for a year and I've not been successful, and my loved ones are asking me what's going on and I feel like a failure, I feel like I'm not successful, I need to do something, and so I think that really, it could be a why right All of a sudden, if something's not working for you, right, that could be a good why to propel yourself to make a transformation.  19:14 Now, again, as I would always say, as being the teacher, right, educate, educate yourself. If you don't know where to go, you can ask a trusted colleague, ask a trusted coach. What do you think I should do? Where should I go? What do you think is next? Read up on the industry. I think that's another really helpful tip is read up on the industry and understand what the trends are, understand what's happening culturally in the world and in the market. Right, in the global market, because and I think we talked about this in one of our previous episodes right, that will dictate what are your buyers looking for? Right, how are you going to transform your business so that it can be something that will serve, right, the market and serve the buyers?  19:56 - Lau (Guest) Absolutely, absolutely. Do your homework, because it's not easy to transform. It takes a lot of work, a lot of research, a lot of homework, a lot of practice and then, all of a sudden, before you know it, you've turned into something else and hopefully it's in the direction of where you want to be. On behalf of your whole audience, you know, I thank you for being an amazing, transformational, super beautiful frog. Thank you, I appreciate that, and you as well we are all frogs.  20:25 - Anne (Host) Right, we are all frogs, we are, we are all frogs, and so I think that it's inspiring and it's motivational and it's exciting. I like to always embrace challenges and I try to embrace fear. It doesn't make me feel any more confident I have. So many people are like you're so confident. I'm like, well, okay, I put it on a good show, don't I? But I always like to look at things with positivity and I realize that if it doesn't work out the way that I think right and maybe it didn't work out I always say, well, look look at what I learned. Like, how cool is that? Absolutely Turn that into something good. You have to love the leap, yeah yeah, love the leap, love the leap.  21:04 And it's funny because when you first started talking about the frog, I was thinking, oh yeah, because frogs. Well, tadpoles, right, I mean gosh. When I was young I used to like I love little polywogs, polywogs that turned into tadpoles, that turned into frogs, and literally I mean look at them, look at how they grew. Look at how they grew. Yeah, they're incredible Caterpillars that blossom into butterflies. That transformation. So, bosses, we have complete faith, complete faith in your ability to transform yourselves, transform your business. And transformation doesn't just have to be business For my health, that's affected. My business, right, everything personally. We talk about how personal this business is. Everything that affects me personally affects my business too, Absolutely.  21:47 - Lau (Guest) You can't separate the two, because you need your energy, your focus, your mindset, your health. You need everything working in tandem to make that transformation happen. So take care of your inners before you take care of your outers. There you go.  22:00 - Anne (Host) I love it, guys, and we have all the faith in the world that you can transform Great conversation, laugh. Thank you so much, my pleasure.  22:08 Bosses, here's your chance to use your voice to not only transform, but to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Visit 100voiceswhocareorg to commit and big shout out to IPDTL, our sponsor. We love IPDTL. It allows me to connect with law and my clients every single day and I love that relationship. I love the building of the relationships with my clients and with law. So you guys, visit IPDTLcom to find out more. Have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.  22:46 - Intro (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host and Gangusa, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

PuchiCon Panel - Vash the Stampede Intro (2 min) Introduction of Anthony & Doc - thanks everyone for coming out Who here has heard us before? Who here is very familiar with Vash/Trigun? Background (3 min) Vash the Stampede created by Yasuhiro Nightow in Trigun Chapter 1 - The 60 Billion Double Dollar Man (May 1995) For purposes of this panel, we'll be focusing on the anime version, not the manga, since the story is much more streamlined in the anime Vash is an alien with decelerated aging, who is raised by Rem alongside his twin brother Knives Knives grows to hate humanity and attempts to crash their spaceship into a planet - Rem puts the boys in an escape pod to protect them Knives and Vash battle, and Knives cuts off Vash's arm - this triggers a latent power inside Vash, and the explosion destroys the town of July (although all the people within were spared) - this incident is what triggers a $$60 billion bounty Vash becomes a drifter, being followed by Meryl & Milly, insurance agents who document the destruction left in his wake (or more accurately the wake of those trying to kill/capture him) Despite being incredibly proficient in weapons, Vash is a pacifist who refuses to kill anyone, even those trying to kill him Knives hires a gang of assassins (the Gung-Ho Guns) to hunt his brother down and cause him pain & suffering After several run-ins with the Gung-Ho Guns (including being forced to kill the leader, Legato), he and Knives have a climactic battle, resulting in Vash wounding Knives but refusing to kill him, honoring Rem's last request: “Take care of Knives” Issues (15 min) Direct traumatic relationship with Knives Idealism to the extreme Humor as an immature defense mechanism Treatment (10 min) In-universe - “the ultimate NPC escort mission” Out of universe - Significant childhood trauma, a complicated ongoing relationship with family, perfectionistic self-drive that is also self-sabotaging Skit (10 min) Hello Vash, I'm Dr. Issues. - Well hello there. How are you? I'm doing well, thank you for asking. -So, I notice there's a plate of donuts out there, are those for someone specific? Or… Those are for anyone in the waiting room. -Aww…but I'm in your office now…can I have one anyway? Sure, but -*rushes out, comes back* Oh man, I love the apple cider ones the most. I'm glad you like them, now what can I do for you? -Huh? Oh, I'm good with the donuts. No, I mean what do you want to talk about. -Um, I think you could use a bit more variety, although I did see some with sprinkles. Then again, those are a bit too artificial for my taste. *chomping* nature knows how to provide the best flavors, ya know? I appreciate your interest in natural health. But I must admit, your reputation precedes you. -Gosh, I'm just some wanderer, *emo-style* searching for the elusive mayfly of love Not all who wander are lost -I'll bet! You meet the most interesting people along the way. Insurance agents, outlaws, homesteaders, outlaws, beautiful women, outlaws…I said outlaws, right? I got the hint. Sounds dangerous. -Sure, if you're not as careful as I am. Careful? From the triage report you sound fairly reckless. -Yeah, I should pay more attention to the beauties…am I right, or am I RIGHT? *awkward laugh* you're not laughing. Not a fan of sexism. -I didn't mean to offend you. Sometimes I get a one track mind. I should examine what's really important…THESE DONUTS! *truly maniacal laugh* You're still not laughing *holds bridge of nose* Vash…Vash…Vash. I'm going to try and keep some level of decorum as I say this. Please…I'm begging you…just take my questions as seriously as you take your appetite, alright? -*dramatic* Sir yes sir! You don't have to get so cranky. Why are you deflecting before we even get to any topics? What's so bad that you won't do the most basic of introductions? -*sarcastic* I saaaaaid hello. If you keep this up, I'm willing to say goodbye.  Trust me, the bill that you'll be footing based on reported damages in the first place won't be wiped out unless you have a complete psychiatric evaluation.-*sigh* If you say so. Thank you. Now, since we're short on time, tell me the biggest concern you have in life. -Oh wow, that's heavy…um, life I guess? Your biggest worry is life itself? -I want everything to live. Is that so wrong? That's…unique. Can you narrow it down? -Nope. Ooooooookay…hoo boy. And…what do you do about life as a whole? -Save it. Cherish it. No matter what. That's what…she would have wanted. She who? -Rem. She was…she taught me everything I needed to know. She definitely sounds special. Based on the tense, I'm guessing something happened. -*nervous laugh, rambling style* Well sometimes bad things happen you know so I just keep going on but as long as I don't think about it too much and how nice she was and everyone deserves to live because she said so and I don't want to let her down but I don't know why everyone hates me sometimes but I still love them and it…it…*exaggerated crying* IT ALWAYS HAPPENS TO MEEEEEEEEEEE *pause* Hmmmmm…didn't quite expect that. In my line of work, we'd call your emotions labile. You're on a rollercoaster here! -I'll try to keep calm. I'm not so bad once you get to know me. It took us this long for you to stop deflecting, and then the real emotions came out like a firehose. That's not the best way to handle things. Plus, the only time I got the sense you were actually serious was when you mentioned the sanctity of life. Maybe such a heady philosophy is cracking you. -No way. It grounds me. It's my core. You probably understand me more than you think. Don't you fight against suicide? Absolutely! -But why? *pause* Well, there's a myth out there that taking your own life is a way to eliminate pain. But from what I've seen, it's the opposite. The person becomes a pain bomb that spreads that sorrow to every person that ever had a positive thought about the one who is now gone. I'm willing to see through that lie. -And what if it wasn't a metaphor for emotion. What if there were real bombs involved, and bullets, and weapons you couldn't even dream of. What then? What if someone is so bent on hurting others that the only thing you can do is stop it…but that person has a value too, don't they? Yes. -So where am I wrong? Why do so many people fight me when I don't want to fight them?  Sometimes I chant a mantra to myself: “Magnets draw metal because they are strong.” You're a target, for sure. But not many of those who are as pacifist as you are willing to fight in the…unique way that you do. You're begging to become a martyr. -Don't say that…*yelling* DON'T SAY THAT. I want a fun life. A simple life. But I won't run from anyone who needs saving. Trouble finds me. I've had to deal with Knives. ***misunderstanding, WAY too flippant***...and swords, and bullets, and lasers, and rockets blah blah blah -You fool! I mean my brother. *sighs* You know, it's really hard to love someone when they want you to be someone you're not. *pause* Can you deal with the imperfect? -What's that mean? You, your brother, Rem, whoever that is…the people you save, the people trying to kill you…it's all one giant imperfect mess. And yet, I get the sense that you will never be satisfied. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. You have passion; I can see that. No one can promise you peace. But what I can do is help you mold your purpose. Life itself may be zero-sum if you look at the end, but the value is infinite if you find a way to enjoy the things in between. -*pause* Wow. That's really sweet… Thank you -BUT NOT AS SWEET AS THESE DONUTS! *whining* Ohhhh man…I thought I was getting through to you. -***munching again*** Well, you know what they say…the way to a man's heart is through his stomach. THEY DON'T SAY THAT IN A THERAPY SESSION -Well, I gave you a new technique. Gotta go, Doc! Thanks for the comfort food! Ending (5 min) Thanks everyone for coming!  Next episodes: Mister Sinister, Ventriloquist, Bigby Wolf Apple Podcasts: here Google Play: here Stitcher: here TuneIn: here iHeartRadio: here Twitter Facebook TikTok  Patreon TeePublic Discord

Kids, am I Right?  They grow up in a blink of an eye so why not shrink em!  Thusly, our podders watched Honey I Shrunk The Kids.  So set the 'Shrink (death) Ray' to 3/4 inch and get ready to learn about atomic physics, when to worry about the safety of your kids, and oh ya French Class.  Ha ha ha!!!!  Also, keep saying the mantra "I hate ants.  I won't shed a tear.  I hate ants. I won't shed a tear."  Good luck, it's a jungle out there!

Tune in as Michael Jamin talks with his good friend, actor Rick Negron who plays King George in Hamilton. Discover what he has to say about being the first Latino King George, doing his first show in his home country of Puerto Rico alongside Lin-Manuel Miranda who was acting as Hamilton, and his overall Hamilton touring and acting career experience.Show NotesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/rick_negron/?hl=enIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0624508/?ref_=nmmi_mi_nmIBDB: https://www.ibdb.com/broadway-cast-staff/rick-negron-107348The Spokesman-Review: https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2022/apr/28/youll-be-back-in-playing-king-george-iii-in-hamilt/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated Transcript:Rick Negron (00:00:00):That's still the case nowadays for a lot of young dancers and, and musical theater types. They go to New York and they take dance classes and they take voice lessons, and they take acting classes, and they get that picture and resume ready, and they go to open calls. And if you're talented and you're lucky sometimes you, you get an equity show, a, a union show from an open call. It's tough. And you have to, you have to hit that pavement. And sometimes, you know, getting to know, being in the right place at the right time. I, I, I was mentioning to you before that I, I booked this H B O commercial and I met more a dancer on that show who said, Hey, you'd be right for the show. And one of the guys is leaving the show and they're having auditions at the theater, and you should go. And that's how I got my first Broadway show.Michael Jamin (00:00:50):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Michael Jamin (00:00:58):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. If you are an aspiring theatrical actor, I got a present for you and we're gonna unwrap him right now. And his name is Rick Negron. And he's been my buddy for many years. He's at my wedding. We go back, Rick. Now Rick is most famous for probably, he's done a ton of stuff though, but he's probably most famous for playing the role of king George in the touring company of Hamilton, which he's been doing for four years. But he's done a ton of Broadway stuff. We're gonna talk about him. He's also done voices. I didn't know this, but he was also he does vo he did some voices in Red Dead Redemption as well as grand Theft Auto, which I wanna know all about that as well. But mostly I wanna talk about his incredible theatrical acting career. Rick, thank you so much. Thank you so much for . ForRick Negron (00:01:47):What? Michael Jamin? I'm in the room. I'm, I'm in the room where it happens, man.Michael Jamin (00:01:52):, this is the room. This, what people don't realize is that I recorded some of this and I bone, I didn't, I didn't record, so, yeah. And this is, this is part two of our interview. I had a record over cuz I wasn't recording. StuffRick Negron (00:02:03):Happens. And you know what, Michael, you, you and I can talk till the cows come home. This is not a problem.Michael Jamin (00:02:09):This Rick's great guy, and he's gonna tell us all about. I, I, I had, so there's so much I wanted to get outta you, but first of all, what I, we were talking about is, you've been doing Hamilton, you've been King George and Hamilton, the first Latino King George, I might say, which is a big deal. And so yeah, you've been touring the country from city to city, and I kind of really wanted to talk to you about like, what is your, what is your day like when you go up on stage, you know, what are you doing before, what you're doing all before that, before you got on stage, because it's a, you've been done. How many performances have you said you're done? This,Rick Negron (00:02:44):I'm over 900 easily. I'm close to like nine 50. I, I, I don't count 'em, but every time the, the company management has like, oh, this is our 900th performance, I just kind of go, well, I've only missed maybe about between vacations and days that I've been sick. Maybe I've missed 30 at the most over a four year period. , that's, I've, I've done a lot of performancesMichael Jamin (00:03:11):And, and we were talking about this and your character, like I, I've, I hate to make you repeat it, but how do you get, like, how do you get psyched up before each show when you do that many shows? How are you, what's your process before you, you run on stage?Rick Negron (00:03:27):Well, this, this character is a real gift in the sense that it's beautifully written. Mm-Hmm. , it's just three songs. honestly, Uhhuh . I'm on stage for a little over 10 minutes, but it's so well written that if I just hook into the words of, of the songs, I got 'em. Uhhuh you. I, I, I can, I can hook my myself into that myself, into that character very easily, just with the words. But the other gift is that I have time to get ready. So when every, when the show, when we are at places and the show starts, that's when I get my wig on. Mm-Hmm. I still have 15 minutes to do some vocal warmups and get dressed. And are youMichael Jamin (00:04:12):To being like tea with lemon? What are you sit, what are you doing that day?Rick Negron (00:04:16):Nah, nah. I, I mean, I'm not a huge tea guy unless, unless I'm having some vocal distress. And then I do like a nice warm tea with honey and lemon if I'm, if, if my voice is a little wonky or my throat's a little sore. But the main thing for me for vocal capacity is sleep. If I get less than seven hours, my voice suffers. If I eat a lot of cheese and dairy, that's gonna be a lot of gunk on the vocal courts.Michael Jamin (00:04:45):But if you're nervous the nightRick Negron (00:04:46):BeforeMichael Jamin (00:04:47):Hmm. But if you're nervous, if you have, if you get stage nerves and you can't sleep the night before , right? I mean, no. Are you, are you beyond that?Rick Negron (00:04:55):Yeah, I'm beyond that. I mean, I've been in the business long enough that, that I, I get nervous. Uhhuh and God knows, I was nervous the first time I did the show in front of an audience in Puerto Rico of all places. Right. That's where we opened, right. With Lynn Manuel Miranda back in the role of Hamilton after being a away from it for a few years. That was a dream job because I'm from Puerto Rico and I literally went back homeMichael Jamin (00:05:23):To a heroRick Negron (00:05:23):Welcome star and one of the biggest shows on Broadway with Lynn Manuel Miranda and me playing the king. Yeah. I was born like four blocks away from the theater that we were at. It was just crazy sauce. So yes, I was incredibly nervous opening night. And there was my wife, my sister-in-law, in the audience you know, yes. Really nervous. But did I lose sleep the night before? No. I slept like a baby. No, really? My nerves don't really hit me until I start putting on that costumeMichael Jamin (00:05:51):. Really? Yeah. I see. I would imagine to me, I mean, I know it's a big deal to be star of a movie, but to me this to me seems like a bigger deal. What you, what you're doing in terms of, it seems like a you are lead in this giant freaking play that, I mean, one of the biggest plays, you know, of our, of our time on. Seriously. Yeah. Yeah. And you are these, you play this character who the minute he walks on stage, the place goes nuts cuz you hit a home run and then you walk out, you're the home run guy. Exactly. Bye. Hello. No. ExpectRick Negron (00:06:21):Bye. And by the way, no expectation. I'd literally walk on stage and the place goes bananas. And I haven't saidMichael Jamin (00:06:26):A word. Right. They love you before. You haven't even said anything. I mean, what a huge, I don't know. I just think this is like, I don't know, if I were an aspiring actors, that would be the part. I don't see how you, I don't know how, where you go from here, Rick Rick Negron (00:06:41):. It's all downhillMichael Jamin (00:06:43):.Rick Negron (00:06:45):No, I guess listen, it, the beauty of it is also that I've had this really long career mm-hmm. and, you know, I started out as a chorus boy on Broadway and then worked myself into understudy and then did some roles. And then finally at, at a ripe old age. I've gotten this great job and I've really, I'm at the point in my life where I'm really enjoying it. Yeah. I'm enjoying the process. I'm enjoying the traveling cuz I, I, I've toured some, but I haven't toured a lot. And this tour has been to some really great cities all on the west coast up and down the west coast. Yeah, the mountain west. In the winter I got some snowboarding in, in Salt Lake City, Denver. I,Michael Jamin (00:07:33):Where are you supposed to do that with you if you break your leg?Rick Negron (00:07:36):Yeah, I'm not supposed to do that. Can we delete that from the podcast? ? We can take that out. . It's in the past. I don't care. Okay. I, I stayed on the bunny slopes. I Right. I really took it easy. But then we spent summer in Canada, which was amazing. I was up in Calgary in the summer and went up to band for the first time in my life. And my wife, Leslie, who you know well, came up to visit and we stayed on Emerald Lake and I just spent two months in Hawaii. So this tour has just been amazing. Well, it started out in Puerto Rico, as I said, right. For a month with Manuel Miranda. And then we went to San Francisco and sat for a, a year in San Francisco. So I got to live in San Francisco Right. For a year and experienced that incredible city until the pandemic. And then we shut down for a year and four months before we started up again.Michael Jamin (00:08:27):And then, and then So how did you start? We, how did you start? Like, you know, take me back. I know you, I know you were, take me back to when you were a child. Did you, I mean, this is, did you dream of being a Broadway star like this? Like, what happened? Who, who dreams of that? Like who, how, I mean, you all dream of that, but who achieves it, I guess?Rick Negron (00:08:46):Well, a lot of people do. A lot of people do. And, and, and not everybody has the path that I had, but some of us get bitten by the bug early on. And I got bitten by the bug when I was 10. Right. And my mom was the drama teacher at school. And I guess I blame her for everything. But this mustMichael Jamin (00:09:06):Be the be like, you must be the, the crowning achievement in her, in her in her life.Rick Negron (00:09:12):Yeah. She's, but I did, she's pretty proud. And I have ano another sister who also went in into theater and and so the whole family kind of w it was the family thing we all sang. Right. we all did mu mu musicals in the local community theater and children's theater. So it was a family thing for us growing up. But I'm the one that sort of got bitten hard. And then I got involved, like at 14 mm-hmm. a choreographer. I was doing a, a mu a children's theater show, said, Hey, you've got some talent as a dancer. Come take, I'll give you a scholarship at my little dance school. And so after school at 14, I would go take ballet, jazz, tap and acrobatics after school with Susan Cable, who luckily was a great dance teacher. She had been a, a chorus person on Broadway.(00:10:05):Wow. And, and, and that's what, how I started in my dance career. And then it kind of took off. And by the time I got to college I thought I was gonna be a, a concert dancer. I was in college, I was sort of groomed to, to, to possibly go into the Paul Taylor Dance company. And I actually was not on scholarship. I was a intern with a Paul Taylor dance company for a while until I realized I'm making no money. I'm working super hard and I've always wanted to be on Broadway. That was my realMichael Jamin (00:10:42):Dream. So those people don't interchange those concert dancers. Don't, they don't.Rick Negron (00:10:46):Some do it. Usually the concert dancers, if they can sing.Michael Jamin (00:10:52):Right.Rick Negron (00:10:54):Will, will sort of move into the musical theater world and sometimes move back into the concert dance world. One of the great concert dancers of all time who I met when he was super young, Desmond Richardson mm-hmm. he was a lead dancer with the Alban AI company for many, many, many years. I mean a God in the dance world. And now he owns his own owns, he runs his own dance company, complexions. And he's a great choreographer. And he was in the bad video with me back in the day with Michael Jackson. Right.Michael Jamin (00:11:30):So Rick was in the, I should say for the, I don't wanna gloss over this. Rick. Rick was in the a dance for, in the Michael Jackson's bad video directed by Martin Scorsese. Yeah. Was Quincy Jones produced?Rick Negron (00:11:41):Yeah, 1985. I was, I was a chorus dancer at the time. I was in I was doing my second Broadway show. The mystery of Evan, Dr. My dance captain was Rob Marshall. went on to direct Chicago, the movie and many other movies since then. And, and while I was doing the show, there was this audition for the bad video and yeah, it was, it was really surreal. I took vacation from, from the Broadway show to do the video and, and, and got to meet Michael who was really sort of like, it was two people in that body. I mean, he was super shy and, and sort of very reserved, but the minute the cameras went on it, he was, he became somebody else. Right. And he was a perfectionist. 25 takes sometimes e every setup. And Scorsese was famous for just burning through film. Easy 20 Takes the video was supposed to shoot for two weeks, and I think it went for four. And this is a music video. It was the first SAG music video at the time, by the way.Michael Jamin (00:12:44):Really?Rick Negron (00:12:45):Anyway, Desmond Richardson was a young dancer at the time. There were a lot of young New York dancers in, in that show. And he famously went into the Avid Ailey company, but then he also worked on Fosse the Musical. And he also worked on Chicago. The, the movie with me. I, I got to work on Chicago, the movie cuz I had this great relationship with Rob Marshall and, and I was invited to audition. I didn't get, the dancers don't usually just get the job. You still have to come in and audition. Right. But even though, you know, the people involved it just is the way it is. And, and there was, and, and Desmond and, and I, we bump into each other all the time and we have so many memories. You know, going back 20, what is that, 85? 1985 was the bad video.(00:13:35):And I, I still bump into 'em. I I've been into 'em at the opening of the new USC school a few years ago. The School of Dance there at usc, the Kaufman School of Dance, I think it's called. But anyway yeah, people go in in from the dance world into musical theater and they go back and forth. Not a lot. Actually. We have one member of our, our of our of our Hamilton company, Andrew who was a modern dancer in the dance world and then moved into musical theater. And,Michael Jamin (00:14:04):But you were telling me how, and this is kind of important cause people are gonna be like, well, how do I break in? And you were, I mean, what, as you were explaining, it's like, it's basically you had this, you were just, you were in the circle, you were just there, and then things le one thing leads to enough simply because you put yourself there. Right. So how did you, what was your first break? How did you get that? I mean,Rick Negron (00:14:24):Every, everybody, everybody has a, a different story about first breaks. And when I was starting out, it was really different. Things have changed, you know, in all these years. Now, if you go to the right school, you can get into the right you know casting director workshop. And they see, oh, really? You, and, and maybe you get an agent out of that workshop and, and you know, it's, it, when I started out it, that wasn't the case when I started out. You go to New York, you start taking dance class at all the big dance studios where all the other Broadway dancers are taking dance class mm-hmm. . And then you pick up Backstage. Mm-Hmm. newspaper, and you go to the open equity calls for every show. I remember my first open equity call was for cats, the national tour, right after Cats had opened on Broadway.(00:15:14):And I, I had four callbacks. I got really close to booking cats, but I didn't. And and I just kept going to open calls. And that's still the case nowadays for a lot of young dancers and, and musical theater types. They go to New York and they take dance classes and they take voice lessons and they take acting classes and they get that picture and resume ready and they go to open calls. And if you're talented and you're lucky sometimes you, you get an equity show, a a union show from an open call. It's tough. And you have to, you have to hit that pavement. And sometimes, you know, getting to know, being in the right place at the right time. I, I, I was mentioning to you before that I, I booked this H B O commercial and I met one, a dancer on that show who said, Hey, you'd be right for the show. And one of the guys is leaving the show and they're having auditions at the theater and you should go. And that's how I got my first Broadway show by somebody suggesting that I go audition and I showed up at the theater and auditioned. And that night I got the job. And that's how I got my first Broadway show. The moreMichael Jamin (00:16:24):People, you know, the more you work, the more you hear andRick Negron (00:16:27):The more you Exactly. Yeah. You're in the mix. You have to in be in the mix and you have to network. And nowadays that involves, as you know social media and getting, getting followers and, and and, and putting out videos of yourself, singing and putting out videos of yourself, dancing and putting out videos of yourself, acting. I mean there's all that stuff that's going on now that wasn't going on when I started. But is, is is the new reality of how do you get into the business really. Okay. And, and when young, when young people ask me how, you know, how do I get started? And I say, well, in your hometown, get involved. Do the, do the school musicals, but get involved with the community theater. In any way you can. If, if you want to be an actor, but you know, there isn't a role for you do the work on the sets.(00:17:19):I worked on sets in community theater. Mm-Hmm. , I helped my mom. She, she was makeup artist too. And so I helped with makeup and I, I did lights. I, you know, I did all kinds of stuff just to be in the room. Right. Just to see other people work, to, to network, to meet people. And and I'm glad I did because I kind of know my way around all the different elements of theater. You know, I know what Alico is. I know, you know what all the different microphones are that they use in theater. And I, I always, I always befriend the crew. I think , as an actor, we can tend to be insular andMichael Jamin (00:17:57):Oh reallyRick Negron (00:17:58):Hang out with just the actors. I hang out with the crew. The crew knows what's up. Uhhuh , the crew knows where the good, the good bars are in town. They, you know, the crew is, and, and they're the ones that watch your back. When you're on the road.Michael Jamin (00:18:13):Now you were explaining to me the, and I didn't know the difference between, cuz you as the king, king, king George, you have two understudies, but there's also swing actors. Explain to me how that all works.Rick Negron (00:18:24):So in the show, you usually, you have the ensemble, which is what we used to call the chorus. Yeah. And then you have the leads. And in the ensemble you usually have two male swings and two female swings. So those individuals are not in the show nightly, but they literally understudy all the f the, the females understudy, all the females and the males understudy. All the males. And that's usually a case. They have two male and two female. In Hamilton, we have four female swings and four male swings. I think I'm right. Three or four. We have a lot. And that's because Hamilton is such a, a beast of a show. It's so hard. Physically. People get injured, people get tired.Michael Jamin (00:19:06):It's like being a professional athlete. It's no different.Rick Negron (00:19:08):Yeah. Yeah. And you're doing it eight times a week. And after a year it's repetitive motion for a lot of dancers. Oh. So I always tell those dancers, don't just do the show. Go, go and do yoga. Go do a dance class cuz you have to work your muscles a different way. Otherwise you're gonna get repetitive motion injuries. Wow. You know, like the same person that that screws on the, you know, back in the day when they screwed down the, the toothpaste cap every day that those muscles every day, all day long are gonna get messed up.Michael Jamin (00:19:37):But do they have like a trainer or doctor on set at all times?Rick Negron (00:19:40):We have a personal train PT, physical therapist right on tour with us. Most heavy dance shows will have that on tour. Because they need, they need the upkeep. The dancers, especially in this show work so hard. They, they need somebody to help them recover from injury. And, and just keep their bodies tuned up.Michael Jamin (00:20:04):And so let's say you get, you're in Hamilton, let's say you're, you're a swing or whatever, but, and then you're on tour, they what, give you a per diem? Or do they put you up in housing? How, like what is the, what is that really like to be?Rick Negron (00:20:15):So let me I'm, I'm gonna finish the whole understudy thing because Oh yeah. You have the swings and then you have the understudies, which are people in the chorus who understudy the leads. But then you also have standbys. And the standbys aren't in the show. Right. But they're backstage and they understudy anywhere between 2, 3, 4, 4 different characters. And so at the drop of the hat, they can say, Hey, you're on tonight for Burr, or you're on tonight for Hamilton. It, it can happen five minutes before the show. You can know way in advance cuz you know that character's going on vacation and stage management has told you, oh, you're gonna do the first five of, of, of the, of the vacation or the first four and somebody else is gonna do the other four. So you may know ahead of time and you can ask or tell your friends and family to come see you do that role. Right. Cause you know, ahead of time. But many times you, you find out last minute that somebody is sick or, or doesn't fe or hurt their knee or whatever. Or even in the middle of the show, sometimes somebody will twist an ankle and boom, we have a new bur in act two. It, it's, it's happened not a lot, but it's happened often enough that the understudies come in, warmed up and ready to go.Michael Jamin (00:21:26):But you explained to me even before every performance, even though you've done the same freaking songs for 900 times, you still mentally prepare yourself. You go through, you rehearse each, each song that you go through. So you walk yourself through it. But I can't even imagine if, like, if you, how do you prepare yourself for four different roles possibly. You know, like how do you do that? It's like you, it'sRick Negron (00:21:49):Crazy. Yeah. They, they, I know some of them will go over like difficult passages in the show because there's, there's moments in the show, like for Lafayette he's got in guns and ships. He's got some, some rap that are so fast. Yeah. That I, I know the understudies will go over those, what, what we called the, the, the moments when you can trip up. You go over those moments before you go on, but the rest of you can't go through the entire show. Right. Just pick and choose those moments where you can like go backstage and just go over your words and make sure they're, they're, you know, under your belt. I go over my words because I sing the same tune three times, but with different lyrics. Right. And the, and the trap is to sing the wrong lyric in the wrong song, which I had done. And it's, there's nothing more embarrassing and gut wrenching than to sing the wrong lyric in the wrong song. And you just have to find your way back. And it, they call it walking into the white room. And because literally what does that will happen and your mind will, your mind will explode, your armpits will explode with sweat. Your eyeballs will get this big, your throat will dry. It is flight or flight or flight moment.Michael Jamin (00:23:07):Yeah. AndRick Negron (00:23:08):It's so hard to, to like try to grasp the right lyric. And, and you're in, you're literally in a white room. Yeah. And you're going, oh shit. How, how do I get back?Michael Jamin (00:23:20):Right.Rick Negron (00:23:21):And for me it's a little easier cuz my song is nice and slow, but can you imagine being Hamilton and you're rapping a mile a minute and you go into the white roomMichael Jamin (00:23:29):And do you guys talk about that? OhRick Negron (00:23:32):Yeah. Yeah. Famously on Broadway, there, there, there was a something called Burst Corner. Uhhuh which was, I, I forget who started it, but I think , they, they told 'em not to do it anymore. It was something where they post on Instagram or Facebook. Oh. so-and-so, you know, said this instead of what they should have said, you know, basically coming out and, and owning your faux PAs during a live show. Right. I remember when I did Manda La Mancha with Robert Gole on tour. He used to make up lyrics sometimes. And we, and one of the guys in the show started jotting them down. And at the end of the tour, they basically roasted him at a, at the closing night party with all the lyrics that he made up throughout, throughout the entire thing. And he was not amused.Michael Jamin (00:24:20):He was not amused. I was gonna say, IRick Negron (00:24:23):Was not amused with that one. Okay. But my favorite faux pod of his was we were in Nashville and he started singing Impossible Dream. And he's sang to dream the Impossible Dream to fight the unat of a fo to carry Moonbeams home in a jar.Michael Jamin (00:24:41):And there was like, what?Rick Negron (00:24:44):That's a big Crosby song. Oh, funny. Carry Moon Beams Home in a Jar. It's an old Bing Cosby song. And he just pulled that lyric outta nowhere and inserted it into the impossible dream. And everybody backstage just went,Michael Jamin (00:24:59):What do he say? Oh my God. That's hilarious.Rick Negron (00:25:03):But you know, I I'm, I'm, I might be roasting Robert Gole at the moment, but everybody's had those moments. Yeah. Especially in Hamilton, it happens cuz the, the words are coming fast and furious and boy, if you miss that train or you screw up, oh, it's hard to get back on.Michael Jamin (00:25:18):And I imagine ifRick Negron (00:25:20):You do, everybody does. Everybody, if youMichael Jamin (00:25:21):Do it one too many times, are you looking at unemployment?Rick Negron (00:25:24):Mm-Hmm. ? No. Really? No. Yeah. I mean, nobody does it one too many times. Uhhuh, . I mean, some understudies have more bumps in the road than others. Uhhuh. . But you, you, you know, we give them a lot of grace because being an understudy is really hard. Yeah. And so when somebody's honest and understudy you, everybody has their, their, their side view mm-hmm. just because they, they might be in the wrong spot in a certain moment or cross a little differently than the usual guy. So you just have to have some grace. Don't get upset if they're in the wrong spot. You know, just maybe nudge them a little bit or pull them or, or, or just watch out for them and don't bump into them because, you know, somebody is on. I, because I've understudied so many in so many shows, I have a lot of empathy for, for understudies and swings and, but I, I, I don't, in my experience, and I've been in a ton of shows, I haven't been around somebody who's messed up so much that they've got gotten fired. Usually when somebody's not up for the task creatives know during rehearsals that they're not cutting it. Uhhuh . And then so somebody will get, will get let go. Right. the only other time I, I remember somebody lost their voice and, and took time off and came back and lost their voice again. And it was just a situation where they couldn't do the job. Their voice just, wow. Their voice just couldn't ha hack it. And so, you know, those are tough and difficult moments. They don't happen often, but it happens.Michael Jamin (00:27:09):Wow. Yeah. And now you were also telling me, which I thought was fascinating, is that your character, because he's the king, you were talking, you know, how, how your character has evolved, you playing the same exact part has evolved over, over all these years of you playing it.Rick Negron (00:27:24):Yeah. It's, it's been a gift. I'm, I'm, you know, I've realized early on that theater really is my thing. Even though I did some TV and film when I moved to la I, I didn't, I didn't really love the work. Right. It sort of felt a little bit empty just in the sense that, you know, you sit in a trailer for hours and hours and then you get a couple of rehearsals and you shoot and you're done. And that's it. You know, and it's on, it's out there for posterity and you walk away from the, from the gig going, oh, I could have done this, I could have done that. But in theater, you get to redeem yourself every night. You know, if you screwed up the night before, you, you make it better the next night. And I love that about theater.(00:28:07):And and so for, for me I just get better over time and people say, oh, but don't you get tired eight times a week a year. I don't. I I like to, I like to tell people that it's, it's almost like being a potter. You have the same, you know, square block of clay and you're making that same pot. But every time you're doing something a little bit different and you're learning from the, the, the, yesterday when you made that pot, today you're making the same pot, but you learn something new, you discovered something new, making this pot, it's still the same pot, but you're, you may be doing a little filigree or a little curve here, or a little something different. So every night you get to shape this pot a little bit differently. And that's, for me, that's the, the beauty of it.(00:28:59):That's the challenge. I remember early on with, with this, with this character, I was in rehearsals and the the associate director Patrick Vassell said, you know, Rick, this is interesting. Most guys come in with a really large, over the top take on the king. Mm-Hmm. , you're coming in with a very spare low-key take on it. I mean, we're gonna build you up, which is usually not the case with this character. And build, build him up. Not make him bigger, but just give him more depth. Okay. And that was the rehearsal process for me. And then when I started working with Thomas Kale the, the director of Hamilton right before we opened in Puerto Rico, he said, the trick to this guy is to make him, make him as simple and as small as possible because the king can, with one finger kill a whole community. Right. Know, he just has to say, those people are gone and they're gone. So he doesn't have to do much. He has all this power. So that, that was like the best bit of information for me. And so the challenge is over time is to do less.Michael Jamin (00:30:14):Right. AndRick Negron (00:30:14):Still with all the homework that you've done and the character work that you've done, but do less. And I, and I was telling you this before, that you walk out on stage Yeah. And the audience goes crazy. And, you know, there's all this expectation and sometimes you get suckered in by this adoring audience to do more. Right. But you have to fight that feeling and do less. And that's,Michael Jamin (00:30:38):It sounds like though you got conflicting notes though. No. They directed the eight. Well,Rick Negron (00:30:43):I think because in rehearsal I was still sort of finding my way with him. Uhhuh . And instead of making this broad fabish character, which is how somebody who starts with King George and thinks, oh, I'm just gonna do this and make him big and fabish. Right. that's sort of a two-dimensional view of, of the king. And I came in with a lot of research about the guy and thinking, I, I, I don't wanna make him this two-dimensional caricature. Right. I really wanna make him a, a guy who is number one dangerousMichael Jamin (00:31:21):Uhhuh ,Rick Negron (00:31:21):Who has a lot of power and who, who is feeling jilted, but won't allow you, you can't break up with me. Right. I'm breaking up with you. You know, that kind, that kind of dynamic in this, in the first song specifically. And so I came in with that and he said, that's great. Now we're gonna just work and put more layers on him, but not necessarily make him bigger, but just give him more layers.Michael Jamin (00:31:52):Let me ask you the, because when you're in, when you say, you know, you're the analogy of making a pot, are you going into the performance thinking, I wanna try this today? Or are you so into character you forget and, and somehow it it organically arises?Rick Negron (00:32:10):I try to stay in, in the more organic realm.Michael Jamin (00:32:13):Uhhuh, ,Rick Negron (00:32:14):Because I think that's where the really good stuff is. The stuff that just pops out of you.Michael Jamin (00:32:20):But you can't make that happen. That's the problem. Yeah.Rick Negron (00:32:23):If, if, if I plan somethingMichael Jamin (00:32:26):Mm-Hmm.Rick Negron (00:32:26):, I, I feel like it, it feels fabricated a little bit. Right. And so I, I try not to, but sometimes I'll get a note from, we have a resident director that travels with us, and also sometimes the director or the associate director will show up to whatever city we're in and will watch the show and give us notes and say, you know, in this moment, maybe try this or try that. And so I really pay attention to those notes and I try to implement them, but I try not to I try not to quote unquote fabricate them or, or, or think too much on it. I try to, maybe, maybe the best thing that I can say is I'll tr I'll try on my own four or five different ways to achieve that note. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. I can, I can, I can make it more dangerous in this section if I lean into this word or if I, you know, take a pause or whatever it is. I'll come up with four or five different ways to get the note across and then let whatever which one pops out pops out when it, when I do the performance. So I give myself some choices. So I don't, so I don't get, I don't pigeonhole myself into a specific choice, which then feels fabricated and fake.Michael Jamin (00:33:51):Right. But do you ever get into the part and then n notice, oh, I, I just slipped out of it. I, I'm, I'm, I'm observing myself now. I'm not in the partRick Negron (00:34:00):Happens all the time.Michael Jamin (00:34:02):And what do you do? How do you get back inRick Negron (00:34:04):The words the text will save you for every writer out there. Thank you. Because the text will save you. You have to get back into, into what it is you're saying. When, whenMichael Jamin (00:34:16):You, but the words are in your head that you don't, you're not reading something, they're in your head.Rick Negron (00:34:19):You're in your head, but in your head. I've been doing this so long that I can be in the middle of my performance and going, Hmm. That wasn't good. Right. Like, I'll be criticizing myself while I'm doing it,Michael Jamin (00:34:31):But that's not good. Now you're out of character.Rick Negron (00:34:33):Now I'm out of character. Now I'm in my head. Right. And the first thing that I'll do is I'll, I'll bite something. I'll bite a word or I'll, I'll make a gesture. Or basically I'll snapped my myself out of that.Michael Jamin (00:34:47):Do it.Rick Negron (00:34:48):I guess. I didn't silence my phone.Michael Jamin (00:34:51):That's okay. So,Rick Negron (00:34:52):Interesting enough. That's, that's the resident director of Hamilton just texted me.Michael Jamin (00:34:57):. He can wait. It's not important.Rick Negron (00:34:59):No. She, she, luckily this is she. Yes. Better. Sherry Barber. Amazing director.Michael Jamin (00:35:05):So we that's my next question though. I wanna talk about that. But, so, all right. So you snap so you, you, you get back into it with a physical, something physical, a gesture or something.Rick Negron (00:35:14):Physical or, or, or, or vocal. Yeah. Or some different intention. Yeah. Just mix it up. Right. Mix it up. Yeah. Do something different that, that's gonna get you outta your head.Michael Jamin (00:35:27):Right. I mean, I mean, I would think that we, that way my fear is going up, going up, forgetting, oh, what, what's my line? Line? Oh,Rick Negron (00:35:34):It is, that's every actor's fear. And, and, and if anything keeps me nervous, it's that, it's the fear of, of messing up. But the, and people say, oh, how do you get over being nervous? And I always say, you, how, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Yeah. Practice, practice, practice. Confidence comes from being, I can sing that song with another song, playing over a loud speaker. That's how well I know that song.Michael Jamin (00:36:04):Really. With another song playing. There'sRick Negron (00:36:05):Another song playing over the loud speaker. And I can sing my song while that song is playing. That's how much in the bones in my cell that song is. See, I just have to, I, I rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, rehearse.Michael Jamin (00:36:18):Do you think it's possible to over rehearse?Rick Negron (00:36:21):Yeah.Michael Jamin (00:36:22):Uhhuh. . Yeah.Rick Negron (00:36:24):But I mean, for me, you know, every actor's different. For me, my comfort, what gives me my comfort zone is, and, and gives me confidence, is feeling like I, I know this inside out, left, right. I, I know ev Yeah, I know this. I got this Uhhuh . That's how I getMichael Jamin (00:36:46):There. But, but you don't feel that way in opening night cuz you haven't done it 900Rick Negron (00:36:49):Times. No, no, no. You haven't done it 900 times. So you just, you you, I go back to my yoga and I, I I do some deep breathing mm-hmm. and I try to focus on the intentions of the character. What is he trying to do?Michael Jamin (00:37:05):Do you, do you sometimes kick yourself? Like, do you feel like, oh, I wasn't in the Tonight Show. I was, I tried. I wasn't in it. I wasn't in it. OhRick Negron (00:37:14):Yeah. I walked out, I walk off stage sometimes and go, Ooh, that was terrible. Or whatev, you know, I'm, I'm my worst critic. Right. And sometimes I walk away and go, oh, that was good.Michael Jamin (00:37:26):Right. Because you're justRick Negron (00:37:27):Lost. I don't pat myself on the back as often as I should. Uhhuh , I'm usually more critical of myself. And, you know, and now I try, I try to not beat myself up as much as I used to. I try to be a little kinder to myself, but yeah, I totally walk away sometimes going, oh, that was, that was not your best.Michael Jamin (00:37:46): . And, and so these, these directors, like, what do they, what's their job? Because they didn't direct the show. The show has been choreographed. It's been directed. Now they're just jo they're just there every night to make sure it doesn't go off the rails.Rick Negron (00:37:59):Yeah. PrettyMichael Jamin (00:38:00):Much tune things.Rick Negron (00:38:01):Yeah. And the really good ones, like, like sh like our our resident director Sherry they're there to keep it fresh. And so she's constantly feeding you ideas. Hey, what, what if we do this? What if we do that? How about, how about, you know, and, and that's, she, she's great at bringing new ideas to something that we've been doing for four years,Michael Jamin (00:38:27):But I'm not sure how much I would wanna hear that if I were you. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, oh, I love it. This is what I You love that.Rick Negron (00:38:34):I love it. I love trying new stuff. I love messing about with that pot that I'm creating. Oh, what about, why, why don't you do a lip on, on, on the top? Oh, yeah, yeah. Do it. We'll curl out the lip on the top. I've never done that before. Right. Why don't we do that? You know, I did something a few months ago at the end of the song, the song I famously go, famously I should say the, the king famous famously says, and no, don't change the subject. And he points at somebody in the audience and he gets, he, it's a rare moment where he gets upset. Uhhuh . And that's, and, and if you've seen the Disney Plus, Jonathan Gruff famously just spits all over the place. It just is, it's, it's an explosion of saliva. And it's, it's a brilliant moment. I think. I think his take on the king is, is wonderful and he sings it so well. And and I usually point, they want you to usually point in sort of the same area of the, you can point anywhere, but they, they usually take point over here. And I always point over there, and one night, man, this is maybe about four or five months ago, one night at the end of the song, I went, I went,Michael Jamin (00:39:45):I'm watching youRick Negron (00:39:46):Uhhuh . Like, I pointed to my eyes and I pointed to that person who I had pointed to earlier in the song. And no, don't change the subject as if that's my one nemesis in the room. And I'm just saying, I'm watching you . And it got such a reaction, right. That I kept it, it's been my new little bit until I, until I decide I don't want to, or until, you know, the associate director walks in and goes, you know what? I don't like that thing that you do at the end, cut it. And I'm like, okay, it's gone. Right. Well, think of something else. You know, unless there, there's always, there's always something right. That I can think of. And that's, that's the fun part that I can always improve it, I can always make it better. I can always have fun with it.Michael Jamin (00:40:29):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Michael Jamin (00:40:53):I'm surprised you, I mean, I, I would wa I'm curious like, but you allowing yourself to watch, you know, Jonathan Grots version as opposed, you know, is that, are you, do you, you know, what's that like, you know, cause character yoursRick Negron (00:41:08):Now. Yeah. I saw him do it originally on Broadway when I saw the show in previews. And then of course I saw him do the Disney Plus version. And then when we were in rehearsals in 2018 for our company, we were the third national tour to go out when we were in rehearsals, they said, oh, you you know, you can go stand back in the, at the back of the house at the Richard Rogers and watch the Broadway company. And at that point, the king was Ian I'm forgetting Ian's last name, but he's, I think he's still the king right now. He's been there for a long time. He's brilliant. Uhhuh as the king. And I watched him play the King while I'm in rehearsals for the King. Right. And for me, I wish I could see all the kings really? Because really they all do something different. And, and you, and, and the stuff that's really good. You wanna steal it, man. You wanna, but can you, I mean, love that,Michael Jamin (00:42:00):But can youRick Negron (00:42:00):Take it from the best baby steal from theMichael Jamin (00:42:02):Best stuff from the best.Rick Negron (00:42:04):Interesting. Yes. I mean, you gotta make it your own. You can't do the exact same thing. Right. But, but it, for me, it feeds me as an actor. I'm like, oh, what a cool idea. I should, I can do a version of that or Right. Or so. Oh, that makes me think of something else. You know, I, I I, yeah. I I love it. DoMichael Jamin (00:42:20):You get together and talk with the other kings at all? Yeah.Rick Negron (00:42:23):I've met the king that's on on Zoom, actually. I haven't met him in person, but the guy Peter Matthews who, who does the Angelica tour and he's been doing it for a while. Most of the Kings. It's a, it's a nice gig. So yeah, you stick around right. As long as you, you know, want to, or as long as they'll have you. Right. And Hamilton's been really great about, you know, letting us stay. But Peter Peter's really a funny guy and I haven't gotten to see his king because obviously I'm doing it at another part of the country while he's doing it. But I would love to see him play the King. Really. yeah. And Rory O'Malley, who played it here in la, he did the first national, he I think Tony Winter for book of Mormon. Fantastic guy. I met him in San Francisco when he came to see our company. I'd love to see his cane cuz he's a great singer and, you know, everybody's got their, their their take on him. And I, I find it fascinating to see what somebody does with, with this character.Michael Jamin (00:43:25):Right. Cuz there's so much, there's so much. Yeah. That's so much how much constantly reinvented fun,Rick Negron (00:43:29):Fun role and,Michael Jamin (00:43:30):But by still, but you still gotta remain true to what the words are and what the intention of the words. But it still can be interpreted while still being true to thoseRick Negron (00:43:38):Words. Which, which is the beauty of, of, of, of Hamilton and, and I give a lot of credit to the creative team, is that yes, you have to sing the words and sing the melody, but you get a lot of creative license to, to make it your own Uhhuh . And so if you see our company of Hamilton and then you see the Broadway company of Hamilton, it's almost like two different shows. Right. It's the same show. But because you have different actors in those roles, it's pretty remarkable the difference in the companies.Michael Jamin (00:44:10):And tell me a little bit more about some of the other Broadway and traveling, because you've had such a resume, man, such a resume.Rick Negron (00:44:17):. Well, you know, I, I started back in the eighties as a, as a Chorus Boy and, and doing some really cool shows. Man La Mancha, the Goodbye Girl, theMichael Jamin (00:44:27):GoodbyeRick Negron (00:44:27):Girl leader of the Pack. I, I did, I did In The Heights on Broadway Right. For a couple of years. That's when I, I actually did a workshop of In the Heights in 2005 with Li Manuel Miranda and the whole gang, and I got to meet them back then. So they've been good loyal friends since then. Yeah. And, and have kept me employed for many years. I hand, you know, hats off to them . Oh, I do have hair by the way, but it was kinda messy. So I put on my, my hat. YouMichael Jamin (00:44:58):Could have worn your wig, your powdered wigRick Negron (00:45:01):. Oh yeah. IMichael Jamin (00:45:02):Used to wear, Hey, I'm always in characterRick Negron (00:45:04):. Yeah, A actually I have I'm, I have a few weeks off right now, which is why I'm home in la Right. Because we just did Hawaii and, and the show had to pack up and, and be put on the ship to come back to the us So they shipped, the show changed and that's how we, how it got to Puerto Rico too, which is why it makes it kind of difficult to send those shows to the, the Islandss because they have to ship it.Michael Jamin (00:45:29):But even still, how long does it take to set up for them to build, you know, build the set?Rick Negron (00:45:36):Well the shipping of it took a, takes about two weeks.Michael Jamin (00:45:40):All right. But once you're,Rick Negron (00:45:41):But then once it all gets there, our crew can, can put the set up in day and a half.Michael Jamin (00:45:47):Wow. Okay.Rick Negron (00:45:48):It's, it's like, it's all been carefully crafted. It's like Lincoln Logs, everything fits together, butMichael Jamin (00:45:54):Stages are different sizes. That's what I don't understand.Rick Negron (00:45:57):Well, they ahead of time, the, the production management and, and, and, and company management, they sit together and they go, okay, these are the cities that we're doing, which is the smallest theater we're in Uhhuh , that, those are our dimensions. We can't, we can't get bigger than that.Michael Jamin (00:46:15):But you can put a smaller on a bigger, on a stage, you can put a small,Rick Negron (00:46:19):Yeah, yeah. And the show, I mean, the show was made for the Richard Rogers, which is a pretty small theater. I mean, it's an old 1920s Broadway theater, Uhhuh , that seats about 1300. So it's pretty small. And the stage backstage is kind of small too. So most of the theaters that we do on, that we go to on the road are much bigger than the Richer Rogers. Okay. So they just, you know, they just do black baffling on the sides and just make it more of a letter box. And it works. It works. As long as we're not in a place that's smaller than our set. And some shows have what they call a jump set, which means that while we're in one city, we have a, a second set that goes to the next city and gets built. And so that we close in, in Boise on a Sunday and we open in Salt Lake City on a, on a Tuesday, you know, but let's say one day.Michael Jamin (00:47:13):But let's say that you're doing a dance number and the stage is this big and your's, the dancer, you know. Okay. Six pace steps to get my next mark on a bigger stage. It's, isn't it more steps or No,Rick Negron (00:47:23):No, no, because you're, you're, regardless of the size of the stage you are set. It remains the same.Michael Jamin (00:47:30):Okay. So no one will go out of that.Rick Negron (00:47:32):Yeah, no. Yeah. We'll, we'll we'll never stretch it. Right. The set itself never gets stretched. If anything, the, the theater will come in with, with black you know what the, what they call the legs, those are, you know, a break a leg comes fromMichael Jamin (00:47:48):No,Rick Negron (00:47:48):Literally they, you know, break a leg is good luck. But it literally means the legs are those black drapes that come down in the front and also in each wing.Michael Jamin (00:47:59):Okay. SoRick Negron (00:47:59):When you, when you, when you go on stage, sometimes you have to move that drapery to get on stage or to, if you're gonna go in front of the, the, the in front of the curtain, you, you, you move it with your arm, you break the leg.Michael Jamin (00:48:15):So you're not, so you're not literally break. Okay. So you're,Rick Negron (00:48:18):You're not literally breaking the leg, you're not breaking anything. Parting, parting the drapery to go on stage.Michael Jamin (00:48:23):Oh. So this is very interesting. This is gonna be, yeah.Rick Negron (00:48:25):Yeah. It's a little theater trivia for Yeah. The, the folks out there.Michael Jamin (00:48:30):Fascinating. Now. Okay, so on a regular day, you go to a town, your new, your your new city or whatever, and they give you a per diem to Yeah. Goodbye lunch and get out apartmentRick Negron (00:48:42):Diem. The union sets a weekly per diem. And that is for you to spend as you wish. Uhhuh, . And then also company management way ahead of time will say we have three or four different hotels that we've negotiated a special deal for and choose which one you want to stay in. And these are the prices and these are the amenities and people choose from that list of hotels. But a lot of people nowadays are doing Airbnb, especially on a tour where you sit in a city for four weeks, five weeks, six weeks. The shortest stays we've ever had have been two weeks. But we've, we've done six weeks. And so a lot of people do Airbnbs cuz you have a kitchen and you have a washer dryer and more, you know. But isMichael Jamin (00:49:26):It, is staying in a hotel more fun? Is that dorm living, is that more fun for the cast?Rick Negron (00:49:31):Some, no, I don't think it's more fun for them. Some stay in the hotel cuz it'll be right next to the theater. And that's convenient. Yeah. Especially if we are in Denver and it's seven degrees outside. Being, you know, li living right near the theater is really cool when it's, when the weather's bad. But most people, a lot of people nowadays, they're getting Airbnbs and they're rooming together. So three or four people can get a really cool house.Michael Jamin (00:49:57):But I'm picturing Rick Negron (00:50:00):And, and they save money because they're rooming together. Right. So, you know, the rent, their ability to pay rent, I mean now they can use their per diem to live on, not just for their place to stay. They canMichael Jamin (00:50:12):Have you shared, have you shared apartments or No. Does the king, does the king have his own place now?Rick Negron (00:50:16):, I'm too old to have roommates. You're tooMichael Jamin (00:50:18):That crap.Rick Negron (00:50:18):I had roommates in my twenties and thirties. I'm done. But the only roommate I have is my wife. And CauseMichael Jamin (00:50:24):You're right.Rick Negron (00:50:24):But she's not really my roommate. SoMichael Jamin (00:50:26):My like, my naive opinion of what it must be like is like in high school when you're in the play it's like, you know, or even at a high school, you know, community, you are like, Hey, it's the, we're all the, it's the group, we're the gang, we're doing everything together. But once you become a pro, that's not the way it is. Huh? It's not likeRick Negron (00:50:45):It is at first it is, it's the honeymoon phaseMichael Jamin (00:50:49):Real. Okay. Where you're like hanging out togetherRick Negron (00:50:51):Where we all just meet and Oh, I know that person. We did a show together a long time ago. And so we become a little bit of a clique and then the, the cliques start happening early on. But we're one big happy family. Right. And we have opening night parties and you know, and all that occurs early on. But then the clicks really start creating Right. You know, the, the peop certain people start to hang out together. We had the, an our, our company's called an Peggy cuz each separate tour has a different name. There's the Angelica tour, the Philip Tour. These are characters in the show. Right. And Peggy is the third Skylar sister. So we became the third company. So we are called the An Peggy tour and we're, and there's a group of us we're called the, an Peggy Alpine Club. And literally, literally a bunch of us who like to hike and, and do outdoorsy stuff. We went snowboarding and skiing a lot in the winter. We, a lot of us got scuba cert certified for our Hawaii stay. Wow. And we've done incredible hikes all over the place. So that's our little clique. But also, you know, people that have, are married and right on tour together or have ki there's a few people that have kids on tour. They get together a lot.Michael Jamin (00:52:07):So and they bring their fam, they bring their kids on onto tour with them.Rick Negron (00:52:10):Yes. There's some people that do that. Yes. But some, some, someMichael Jamin (00:52:16):Like little kids are like high school age. Like you can't be like a high school-aged kid.Rick Negron (00:52:20):No. Most, most of 'em have young kids. You gotta understand. I, I'm working with a bunch of 20 and 30 year olds. Right. And I'm the oldest guy by far in, in, in, in, in the, in the company.Michael Jamin (00:52:30):What's that like being the oldest guy in the company?Rick Negron (00:52:33):Oh, I love it. Love. I used to be the youngest guy then I was, you know, in the same age as everybody. I love it because I as a king too. I, I have plenty of time to sort of mentor everybody. Yeah. And so I've become a little bit of, I, I'm the cheerleader. I check in on everyone and say, how you doing? I'm, I used to be a ma massage, massage therapist. So a anytime peop people are having issues. I, I'm close friends with our, our physical therapist that tours with us. So we work on people sometimes together in tandem.Michael Jamin (00:53:03):What is it they're worried? What is it they want mentoring at the, the career strategy? Like what, youRick Negron (00:53:08):Know, that this career strategy, sometimes it's just dealing with personalities in theater sometimes there's some, some headbutting. Um-Huh. sometimes people are just having problems with a, a particular, an understudies having a problem with a new character that they're understudying or, you know, there's issues on stage with somebody who doesn't quite know where they're supposed to stand at a certain point. Right. And all that is internal stuff that should be worked out with the dance captains and the stage management and, and the resident director. But you know, unfortunately, actors, you know, we have huge egos and, and they're also very fragile egos. And so there's a, a, a bit of nuance involved and people get their, their panties in a twist. And I'm, I'm usually the guy that comes around and, and talks people off the ledge sometimes. AndMichael Jamin (00:54:02):I would imagine we be very hard even, especially for the new guy or the new woman coming in, youRick Negron (00:54:06):Know? Yeah. And I, I I, I, I tend to be the welcome wagon too. Right. You're the new ones. Come on, I'm the king. You know, I'll show you the ropes.Michael Jamin (00:54:13):Wow.Rick Negron (00:54:14):So, so that's, I, I like taking that mantle, not just because I'm the king, but also because I'm sort of the senior member of the Right. And I've been around the block and people have asked me, you know, I'm sick and tired of show business. I want to do something else. And I'm like, you know, that's, I hear that I've, I've had that conversation many, many times in my career.Michael Jamin (00:54:34):Interesting. So why, yeah. I would think, see, right, you've made the touring company of Hamilton, it's pretty much the peak, you know, like, you know, forRick Negron (00:54:41):A lot of 'em want to do Broadway. So they're, you know, they're still focused on doing that Broadway show. And some of them have done Broadway, have done the tour, and, you know, they wanna settle down and meet somebody and have a Right.Michael Jamin (00:54:53):So they want to, is that, is that what the problem is? They, you know, they're done with the business. What, what's the problem?Rick Negron (00:55:00):Well, I mean, you know, you, we've got the new kids who are just starting out who wanna know about, you know, how do I get my, my foot in Broadway? You know, and there's those kids, and then they're the ones that have been around for a while who wanna maybe transition out of, out of the business and, and want some there was one girl who was interested in massage therapy. Oh, wow. And I said, you wanna become ao? Okay. Well, this is what you need to do. And matter of fact the union has something called what is it called? Career Transition for Dancers, which is a, a, a program where you can get grants to do some further education. So if you wanna learn how to be a massage coach, wow. Get a grant through the union. And, you know, I know some of this stuff so I can impart some of that knowledge. And for the young kids who, you know, I wanna get on Broadway, I'm like, okay, well, to get on Broadway, you have to be in New York. And while you're on tour, you know, can't do that. It's hard to get into that audition for that Broadway show. ButMichael Jamin (00:55:57):Are you still in those circles? I mean, it seems like you, I don't know. It seems like you must know. I don't know. You're, I, I guess I'm completely wrong. If you were you know, a dancer on the touring company, Hamilton seems like it wouldn't be that hard to, to find out about an audition on Broadway. And certainly wouldn't be that hard to get a job, because you're obviously really good.Rick Negron (00:56:18):Yeah. and we've had a few people leave our tour to go do a Broadway, Broadway show. I mean, actually, we just lost like two or three people to, one Girl is doing Bad Cinderella. She left our show to Do Bad Cinderella, which is a new Broadway show, a new Andrew League Webber show. Mm-Hmm. . Another guy just left our show to do the, the Candor Nbb, New York, New York that's opening on Broadway soon. So that does happen luckily with the advent of auditioning remotely via video that's helped things out a lot nowadays, so that if you're in Portland on tour, you can send in an audition via video for something back in New York.Michael Jamin (00:57:02):Even dancing. You can, like, you pull the camera back and you do some dance steps. I mean,Rick Negron (00:57:06):Is that what you do? Yeah. Or sing a song or, or, or, or read a scene. Okay. depending on what's needed. And sometimes you, you are able to take a personal day and fly back to New York and audition for something. Right? Yeah. Michael Jamin (00:57:23):Cause I would think, and I, I don't know. Obviously, I don't know it, I would think that if you're in Ham, the touring company of Hamilton, you're practically on Broadway and it's like, it's almost the same circles, except this is where the job is, you know?Rick Negron (00:57:34):True. But if you've been on tour for a year, you'd like to settle down and stop living out of a suitcase. I It'sMichael Jamin (00:57:39):Hard to be on the road.Rick Negron (00:57:40):Yeah. Or you've been doing Hamilton for a while and you just wanna do something different. Yeah. There's those, those kids, you know, they're hungry, they wanna do different stuff. Yeah. They don't wanna be on tour on Hamilton for four years like I have, but I've done a lot of stuff andMichael Jamin (00:57:53):Yeah. What, let's talk about what other, what, yeah, let's talk about some other, we, we, I think we got off track of your other Broadway shows and, and Off Broadway and not touring shows, rather.Rick Negron (00:58:01):Well, you know, I started, I started out young in the biz at 10 cuz my mom was a drama teacher. And then I sort of worked my way through community theater and children's theater and all that. And, and then I was a concert dancer in college and studied for who? Well, I, in college I studied modern dance in, in ballet. But when I got outta college, I, I was an

Michael Jamin sits down with one of his good friends (and former bosses) Jonathan Aibel who was a movie writer for Kung Fu Panda 1-3 and has worked on other greats like Trolls, Monster Trucks, The SpongeBob Movie: Sponge Out of Water, and Monsters vs Aliens. If you dream of being a movie or TV writer, you won't want to miss this podcast episode!Show Notes:Jonathan Aibel IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0008743/Jonathan Aibel EMMYS: https://www.emmys.com/bios/jonathan-aibelJonathan Aibel Rotten Tomatoes: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/jonathan_aibelMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated Transcript:Jonathan Aibel (00:00:00):We knew storyboards, we knew how to read storyboards. We knew what happens in an editing room and how actors perform, right? So we came to it with production skills or an, an understanding of the process that that helped us come in and say, oh, I think you can, you can cut a few frames there and actually know what we were talking about.Michael Jamin (00:00:23):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin, and I got a great guest for you today. This is my, this is one of my, this is one of my first bosses, actually. And yeah, yeah, John, it's true. I am here with John Abel one of the partner, he, his partners Glen Berger. I'll have him on in a future episode. So tell him to just relax. I know he wants toJonathan Aibel (00:00:51):Be, let's see how this goesMichael Jamin (00:00:52):First. Yeah, he'll, exactly. So yeah, and this guy's got a ton of credit. We, he's a real life movie writer. So let me give, I'm gonna sell you a, I'm gonna sell you, John, and then I'll let you talk for a second. But first let me talk, let me sell you up.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:04):That's fine.Michael Jamin (00:01:04):Proof everyone knows, like, I'm a, people say I'm a good creative writer. Wrong. I'm gonna prove it by selling you here, by building you up. So he's written on a u s a, he wrote run on King of the Hill for many years, including he was the showrunner, season five, cos Showrunner Mar. He also worked on Married to the Kelly's. That was his tv. That was his run in TV, I think. And then he went on to write Kung fu Panda, Kung fu Panda two, Kung fu Panda three proving like, you know, milking that thing, just milking that Kung fu panda thing. And then trolls, monster Trucks. And you've had a couple, couple upcoming stuff I want to talk about. Jonathan Abel, welcome to the show.Jonathan Aibel (00:01:46):Thank you. That was okay.Michael Jamin (00:01:48):What wasn't good? What should I have said?Jonathan Aibel (00:01:49):Well, you, king of the Hill is six years and like, that was six six. That was great TV. And then, and then you kinda mentioned some things. I was on six weeks with the same,Michael Jamin (00:01:59):Yeah,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:00):The same emphasis.Michael Jamin (00:02:01):I'm pretty sure, but I'm pretty sure. So they're not equal, you're saying, you're saying, well,Jonathan Aibel (00:02:07):You know, some, some are hits and some are are learning experiences. I'mMichael Jamin (00:02:12):Wearing my shirt for you by the, my King of the Hilter. But let, lemme tell you something. Let me tell you let me tell you something else. So will you, you guys, you and your partner Glenn hired basically, hi. You and Richard Pell hired us to be on King of the Hill. I think there was an opening because of Paul Lieberstein who left. And we literally took his office. So I credit I thank you for that. Oh, you'reJonathan Aibel (00:02:30):Welcome.Michael Jamin (00:02:31):When we got, when we joined the show, it was like, you know, it's your responsibility to get up to speed. So I asked for every script that was written or every, you know, anything on DVD that was already shot. And I distinctly remember reading all your guys' scripts, you and you and Glen Scripps, and just thinking, man, every script you wrote was just tight. It was so tight. And you'd come outta the box with a big joke. And it was just so well written. And like, you know, I didn't, there was 20 writers in the show, but I remember that your, your scripts always stood out like, man, these are always,Jonathan Aibel (00:03:02):You know, IMichael Jamin (00:03:03):Appreciate that. Always good. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:03:04):I also appreciate your your diligence.Michael Jamin (00:03:07):My diligenceJonathan Aibel (00:03:08):Well, to come into a job and say, let me read everything. Lemme seeMichael Jamin (00:03:12):Everything. Oh, is, I didn'tJonathan Aibel (00:03:13):Think that was, it was a bit of a challenge with a hundred episodes.Michael Jamin (00:03:16):Always dreadful. The whole thing was a horrible experience. It's a lot to, but I remember. But you have to do it. You have to. That's how you get the voice of the characters and but the, to like, what kind of show episodes are being told. I remember, I dunno if I ever told you this, but I remember we had just, we were on just Shoot Me, you know, for the first four years. And I remember after the first season, king of the Hill was up against to shoot me. And I remember I was actually house-sitting for Steve Levitan for some reason. And and we were watching, I, we threw a big party. He, he wasn't in the house. And, and we were watching King of the Hill. It just came on. It was the, it was, you know, the Bobby's falls in love with the, with the dummy. And I, and I remember watching thinking, oh no, this is the competition. , this is really good Jonathan Aibel (00:04:01):That we used to watch. Just shoot me all the time in the writer's room feel that same way.Michael Jamin (00:04:06):Is that right? I didn't know that. I don't, I don't think so,Jonathan Aibel (00:04:08):But I, I just feels like it would, it should be.Michael Jamin (00:04:11):Yeah. You, you actually used to reciprocate.Jonathan Aibel (00:04:13):That'd be a nice thing to say.Michael Jamin (00:04:14):It would've been. But yeah, so Damn, Michelle was, and I still get, I, even today I get a ton of compliments on, on King of Hill. But tell me more. Tell me how you broken. How did you guys even get on King of Hill Hill?Jonathan Aibel (00:04:28):We were very lucky in that before we even moved to California, we, Glen and I met, we were management consultants and we met someone at this consulting firm who was college roommate with Greg Daniel's wife. And when we first started thinking maybe we don't wanna be consultants and would prefer to be comedy writers, she said, you should talk to Suzanne. Give her a call. So we called Suzanne to say, could we, we know you're Frank, could we talk to you about writing? And she said, you really wanna talk to my husband? So she put Greg on the phone. He didn't know who we were. We, he then I, whatMichael Jamin (00:05:11):Was Greg doing at that time?Jonathan Aibel (00:05:13):He had moved to la I think he was doing Seinfeld at the time or had done the freelance, the parking spot on Seinfeld. Oh, I didn't, yeah, he'd come off of snl.Michael Jamin (00:05:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:05:25):And he gave the most basic advice that now you would probably give people, or you'd Google this. And it was, and Glen wrote it down, it was moved to Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. . Okay, okay. What else do we need to do? Like the how do you become a writer? And just super helpful in that regard. And then we moved to LA and never ran into him until King of the Hill. We had our first meeting and Glenn, I think he may have brought the pad and said, it's your fault. We're here.Michael Jamin (00:06:00):But how did you get the meetingJonathan Aibel (00:06:02):That, that it was just through our agent. There's this new show starting up, it's animated. I don't wanna do animation. I know, I know. And it's non gild. Yeah,Michael Jamin (00:06:12):I know aboutJonathan Aibel (00:06:13):That. And you're gonna work in a full year for 12 episodes. Mm-Hmm. . Well, this sounds terrible, but it's Greg, it's Mike Judge who's coming off of Beavis and Butthead. Mm-Hmm. . And you will learn a lot whether it's a hit or not. And we thought, well, that's probably the best reason to, to take a job. There's nothing to see. There was no pilot even, there's just a script. Right. There are no voices to listen to. It had been cast. So it was really just going under the assumption that, well, anytime you think something's gonna be a hit, it never is. So let's take a job just based on the people. And I don't think at that moment we had there, it wasn't like, do we take this or do we take this? It was, well, do we take this or do we just hang on? And, but you had no, I think maybe we hadn't,Michael Jamin (00:07:04):You didn't have any other credits before that, did you?Jonathan Aibel (00:07:06):No, we had done, we started off, oh, we did an episode of the George Carlin show. We had done, youMichael Jamin (00:07:13):Were right down the hall from me. I didn't know that. Cause I was a pa.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:15):Right. Well, we had done a freelance. A freelance,Michael Jamin (00:07:17):Doesn't matter. You were in the Warner Brothers building, building 1 22 or something. Cuz that's where it was.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:21):Well, here. No, cuz here's our great George Carlin story is that we wrote this script for Sam Simon. Right. We turned it in. We get a call a few weeks later from someone at the studio who said, great episode. And we said, oh, you read the script. Well read the script. Did tape last night.Michael Jamin (00:07:42): just slapping the face. Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:47):We were not invited to our own tape. So we watched, we had a party, we watched it at home. Look, our first, our first big creditMichael Jamin (00:07:54):That, but that's amazing too. How did you get, how did you pitch that? You're skipping all this good stuff.Jonathan Aibel (00:07:59):Ah, our agent just back then we were, we were new. I think we had a couple, we've done a, a sketch show on Nickelodeon that got us in the guild that got us an agent. And interesting. He just put us up for stuff. So one of them was this freelance of of Carlin. And one of the other things is we went to pitch Sam mm-hmm. , who it was, it was a hazard. Like he had a deadly sharp throwing stars on his table. So you'd go to like, oh, what's the paperwork? Don't touch those. They were razor sharp. And he also had a couple vicious dobermansMichael Jamin (00:08:42):In the office. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Jonathan Aibel (00:08:44):Then he also had, what we assumed was his story editor sitting at the table as we pitched him some story ideas. And then we left and realized, no, that was his next meeting. The next writer who's gonna pitch story idea sat at the table while we pitched ours. And then we left. And he stayed and pitched his,Michael Jamin (00:09:02):That's a littleJonathan Aibel (00:09:03):Unusual. It was a very, it was, it was a very odd thing. But that worked out in the sense that we got the freelanceMichael Jamin (00:09:10):Your scripts must have been very good then. I mean, cuzJonathan Aibel (00:09:13):I don't think they, I don't think so.Michael Jamin (00:09:15):It must have been if you would've got an agent that easily and got to be able to pitch these shows.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:19):Well, the, the agent, I don't know if it was easy. We, well, what happened was what Mo what happens to most people is you come out and you think, we need to find an agent. We need to get an agent. We're not gonna get a job without an agent. Right. And then you meet all these agents, they love you, they love your stuff, and they say, get a job. I'm happy to sign you.Michael Jamin (00:09:37):Yes.Jonathan Aibel (00:09:38):And we realized we're not going to get work, but just an agent. We need to get work somehow. And just by knowing people, talking to people, we wound up at M T V. Mm-Hmm. doing a game show.Michael Jamin (00:09:54):Which show was that?Jonathan Aibel (00:09:55):It was called Trashed. Think It finally Made it there. We just worked on the pilot and then got to know people on the, on the hallway. We share, we were in damn TV buildings. And next door were some writers on this Nickelodeon show. And a couple of the writers had just left. And someone said, oh, I hear they're, they're looking to hire. Wow. So we said, Hey, we, we've got sketches. Can we, can we meet? We the executive producer read our stuff, met with us, and said, yeah, I'll hire these guys. We went to our agent, the, the potential agent, and said, we just got offered a guild job. Do you wanna represent us? You, there's no negotiation other than you say, yeah, I think I can get my boss to sign you. Sure. And that was it. And then we were in the Guild. We were having fun writing, and I had had credits, but I, I wouldn't say we necessarily knew how to write. We knew how to be funny and come up with gags mm-hmm. . But the idea of how do you write a scene, how to you write a script was right. Was a little bit mysterious.Michael Jamin (00:11:01):But, and so you, I so you met Glen, you were just, you were, he was a coworker at when you were in your consulting firm. And then how did you both, like, did you, so you never even dreamed as a kid of being a writer. It was ne like, how did this come out of, where did this come from? This writing thing?Jonathan Aibel (00:11:14):I don't think I had any idea that people wrote for a living.Michael Jamin (00:11:20):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:11:22):Like, you didn't, you'd watch shows and you wouldn't think, I don't, I don't really know what I was thinking. Like, if I went to see a play on Broadway, I knew a human had written it, but there's something about TV where you would think like, I don't know, those are characters who would say these words and you don't think of 10 people in a room writing those words. So it wasn't until Stimson's and Seinfeld started breaking through that, I started feeling like, whoa, there's TV here that I'd wanna write. And later I found out it was because people just a few years ahead of me at Harvard,Michael Jamin (00:12:01):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:01):Were writing those shows. So I was sort of thinking like, why does this feel like it's my sensibility without realizing I was kind of swimming in the same waterMichael Jamin (00:12:09):They had? You weren't on the Lampoon then. No.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:11):You didn't have a no idea that this is something,Michael Jamin (00:12:14):How did you know you were funny then? Like, you know, IJonathan Aibel (00:12:18):Mean, I, I think I always had a sense of humor and was known for being funny slash maybe sometimes disruptive, but cleverly disruptive in school. Right. Like, I was, I'd done musical theater, so I was okay fam like, I, I wasn't like unfamiliar with entertainment.Michael Jamin (00:12:40):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:42):But that was different from thinking, you know, that's something you can make a living at. And then it was right around that time where these articles started coming out about the number of people who had gone from the East coast to LA and how many Letterman writers.Michael Jamin (00:12:56):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:12:56):And SNL writers and Simpson's writer and Seinfeld and Frazier and Cheers and all these. That opened up my eyes to wait a minute, this is, you could make a living,Michael Jamin (00:13:07):But when you,Jonathan Aibel (00:13:07):I went to, I had no idea.Michael Jamin (00:13:09):When you quit your job, then you came to LA you'd had no job. Right. You were what? You were just like, I'm gonna live off my savings. Or what would you do?Jonathan Aibel (00:13:16):Right. We, we, we saved up from, I I, I think Glen says he sent away for grad school applications. His second day of work is how, how quickly he knew that place wasn't for him.Michael Jamin (00:13:30):He did it just .Jonathan Aibel (00:13:32):It was a little, a little later in the process, but we started writing at night. Like we found out you gotta write a specMichael Jamin (00:13:40):Script. Right. And you guys are roommates too?Jonathan Aibel (00:13:43):No. No. We, we weren't, but we wouldn't sometimes call in sick and then work on ourMichael Jamin (00:13:48):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:13:49):Ourselves or Glen would stay home and, and turn the light onto my cubicle and put a Right. Put my suit jacket over my chair. , you know, it wasMichael Jamin (00:13:58):All these, oh my God. Jonathan Aibel (00:14:00):Our heart wasn't really in it, but we stayed and did the job and, and saved up.Michael Jamin (00:14:05):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:06):So that we could move to LA And we didn't move out to LA like I think we were, we approached it, the way we approached consulting, which was this, this was my job as a consultant, was I was given a list of doctors and it, we had sent them a survey and it was go down this list, call each doctor's office and ask them if they filled out the survey. So it's like, hello, Dr. Levine, my name is John Avon. I'm calling on behalf of this. And we've sent a survey. I was just wondering if you had a chance to, to, and I would just have to do that for hours. And the skill it taught me was just pick up the phone and call people.Michael Jamin (00:14:47):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:47):So when we were thinking of moving to LA, it was, oh, you should like calling Suzanne.Michael Jamin (00:14:53):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:14:54):Instead of saying, ah, she doesn't know me. It was just, okay, she's just like a doctor. I'm calling you. She doesn't want to talk to me. She'll just, you weren'tMichael Jamin (00:15:01):To call, were intimidated at all. You, you had, you weren't intimidated at all.Jonathan Aibel (00:15:04):I don't think I knew to be intimidated. We were in Boston at the time,Michael Jamin (00:15:08):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:15:09):. We didn't, you weren't surrounded by people who had this dream of going to Hollywood and then came home with their tail between their legs and said, now it's awful out there. Right. It was, that place seems fun and sunshine and I knew people, people from school, people, friends of my brothers had lived were, were out there. So when we showed up, it felt like there was a, a group, there was a, you weren't alone. It was there other people here pursuing the dream, but not so many that you felt like there's no chance this is gonna happen. Like we were, I don't know if cocky is the word, but because we didn't know any better. We were just know it's gonna work outMichael Jamin (00:15:48):And itJonathan Aibel (00:15:49):We're gonna, we didn'tMichael Jamin (00:15:49):How long did it take for you to get work, but when you moved out here, it sounds like a fa it was fast.Jonathan Aibel (00:15:53):Well, we moved out in September and we got the game show started in December. And then I think amazing by the following summer we were on the Nickelodeon show.Michael Jamin (00:16:07):What show was that? What was thatJonathan Aibel (00:16:08):Called? It was called Roundhouse.Michael Jamin (00:16:10):I don't know that one.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:11):Right. Bruce Bruce Gowers who just passed away two days ago. Who did The Queen, the Bohemian Rapley video. He was the director of it.Michael Jamin (00:16:19):Oh wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:20):But there's a little little roundhouse trivia. It was really fun. It was a lot of in living color writers.Michael Jamin (00:16:25):Wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:16:26):Between gigs were there. So it had dancing and original music and it was a sketch show for tweens on on sncc.Michael Jamin (00:16:36):Sncc. Is that what it was? Really? Yeah. It's so funny cuz this show here was on Nick at night, which was supposed to be not Nickelodeon and Nick at night. No, it'sJonathan Aibel (00:16:43):Different.Michael Jamin (00:16:44):But it's not because it, Nick, I don't remember if Nick at night started at 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM or whatever. But see, my, my partner I siever it used to say, but it's the, it's the babysitting channel up until, you know, 8 0 1 and then it becomes racy. But the parents don't know thatJonathan Aibel (00:17:00):. Right. no one's turning you.Michael Jamin (00:17:02):Yeah. So the, we got a lot of peopleJonathan Aibel (00:17:04):From was Saturday night. Saturday night. Nick is a whole otherMichael Jamin (00:17:07):Ball game. Oh, is that what that is? Sncc? Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:10):I guess they could have also done it Sunday without changing the name. Yeah. But it was SaturdayMichael Jamin (00:17:15):Or Wednesdays. Wednesdays or Thursdays. Anything, any day that ends with an sJonathan Aibel (00:17:23):That's true. Wednesday, Wednesdays Nick.Michael Jamin (00:17:25):Yeah. Anyway, that's why we're not in the marketing department.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:29):My point though is by the time we got to King of the HillMichael Jamin (00:17:32):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:17:34):We had had, we had worked on a, a show that was real old school in its joke telling, like real strong set up three a page, boom, boom, boom, boom. Then we worked on another show that was very emotional where it was single woman in the city kind of show. And that was, it wasn't, not funny, but it was as a writer there it was, wait a minute, I'm supposed to tell a story that isn't just the situation of situation comedy. It wasn't just the character loses her driver's license and has to go to the D M V and this crazy stuff happens. Mm-Hmm. , it was thinking about the, the internal life and they're Okay. That's an interesting then,Michael Jamin (00:18:23):But then when did you learn actually how to write like story, a story structure? When did, is that King of the Hill?Jonathan Aibel (00:18:29):I think so. The other, the, the show that was very joke heavy. The other thing you learn on a joke heavy show is, is the, the tricks. The okay, someone comes in and says something and then at the end of the scene someone repeats it in a callback andMichael Jamin (00:18:44):Right, right.Jonathan Aibel (00:18:45):Then people laugh and the music plays and you dissolve slowly to the next scene. And they're, they're like they're like weapons. They could be in that they could be used for good or evil.Michael Jamin (00:18:55):Right. Right. SoJonathan Aibel (00:18:57):By the time though, we got to King of the Hill, I remember pitching the very first week to Greg and you just have no idea what this show you're thinking the Simpson. So, okay. I remember we pitched something like Dale's an exterminator. So he tens a big house and then people think it's a circus and starts showing up at it.Michael Jamin (00:19:19):Oh, I like thatJonathan Aibel (00:19:20):. And Greg's like, oh, that's the little, probably by season eight that would've been a season eight idea. That's good. But in the beginning I think that's a little not observational enough. And, and, and it's sort of like, well what do you mean to define observational was the, the question like how do you find comedy out of human, actual human behavior?Michael Jamin (00:19:48):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:19:48):In the way, how do you observe what a person would do in a, in a real life situation? And no one had really done that in animation, which was Yeah. The, I think the brilliance of Mike and Greg was to say, well, what if you take this style that's associated with unreality Right. And give it more reality than anything else you've seen in animation.Michael Jamin (00:20:09):And that's what was unusual because we used to say in many ways just king of the Hill was less of a cartoon than, than just shooting me. I mean, just shoot me was more of a cartoon. You know, it was, but, and it's unusual cause you'd say, I I even back then I was like, well why is this show animated? Like, cuz you no one's eyes popping out, no one's running on air. You know, no one's doing any Daffy Duck stuff. But I guess it was just because you could shoot it like a movie and it could be real. But you didn't have the, you didn't have the budget. WellJonathan Aibel (00:20:39):You're probably overthinking it cuz it was just the real reason is they had to deal with Mike and Mike's an animator and this is what he wanted to do.Michael Jamin (00:20:46):. I guess so. But usually why is it animated? Like, you know, otherJonathan Aibel (00:20:50):Than because Yeah. That's, that's why are, why are, why is this? It's cuz cuz Mike wanted, he saw it. No, that was his thing. And, and he didn't. And, and that's great. That's as, that's as good a reason. And how,Michael Jamin (00:21:04):How much was, and I've heard stories, but I think people wanna hear this. How involved was Mike like literally on a day-to-day basis in those early years with the show?Jonathan Aibel (00:21:13):Huh. I can't say I know the full scope of it because I'm sure he was more involved in the production,Michael Jamin (00:21:22):But he wasn't in the writer's room. I mean, I know like,Jonathan Aibel (00:21:24):No, cuz he was living in Texas.Michael Jamin (00:21:26):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:21:27):So he would come in and then we would do the story retreats, maybe you remember. Yeah. Or we'd go to Texas and and meet with him, or he would come in or we'd go to his house. It re it was Greg on the day today. And then I don't really know what the, the communication between the two of them was. Right. I, I'm pretty sure Mike's deal was, I have a life in Texas and I don't wanna move to LA and do this grind cuz he had done that grind for Beefs and, but, and the Beavers and Butthead movie.Michael Jamin (00:22:01):Right, right.Jonathan Aibel (00:22:03):So I think that's what Greg took on.Michael Jamin (00:22:06):But yeah, he,Jonathan Aibel (00:22:06):It was a great combination.Michael Jamin (00:22:08):He have notes though. He I remember, you know, even on on the, on the audio track, you could sometimes hear him say, I'm, that that line's not right. He'd tweak a line or whatever, you know? Yeah, yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:22:19):Yeah, you get his little I'm not gonna say that. How aboutMichael Jamin (00:22:23): not gonna do that. But, but then, okay, so then you guys rose up to the ranks cuz only in five or six years you were running the show, which is a pretty fast climb to be able to run a TV show after only that short amount of time is kind of crazy almost. You know, IJonathan Aibel (00:22:38):Think we were a and meanwhile feels like, oh, we're not getting anywhere in this town. And some of that is because you do a show. We were, we'd probably done a year of it worked under the year before it even premiered. Right. So you're putting all this into it and you don't know if it's gonna be a hit. And then the surprise was, it, it was doing really well. And then you have no time to enjoy it because you're halfway through starting season two. It was, it was both really exciting and just crazy exhausting. And itMichael Jamin (00:23:12):Was,Jonathan Aibel (00:23:13):Yeah. Like 3:00 AM And that's sort of fun sometimesMichael Jamin (00:23:19):When you're young, it's inJonathan Aibel (00:23:21):The beginning where it's, hey, it's like college, right? We're all hanging out. We're just being funny. And then you start dating and your partners saying, what time are you gonna be home? I don't know. Yeah. Or what time do you think I really, I don't know. Someone could come into this room in two minutes and say, we're good. Go home. Or someone could come in in two minutes and say, I just got Mike's notes. We need to start over. Yeah. You don't know. And that's a, when you're a staff writer, not so hard because you just do what you're told when as you move up and take on more responsibility. It, it definitely became less fun. Aspects of it were fun. Mm-Hmm. directing actors was really fun. Mm-Hmm. working with editing and storyboard artists and the animation directors fun. But the more stuff like, can I go to a dentist appointment on Wednesday? Let me see what's the staff, what, what room am I in today? Like, I, I left consulting because I didn't wanna be a, a manager. And that's wh part of show running is that, and for us, that was the, that wasn't the fun part. The fun part, as we say, Glenn and I would note you rise up and become a showrunner based on the strength of your writing. And then you get to a position where you don't have time to write anymore.Michael Jamin (00:24:41):Oh. It's not only that people, cause I people, they reach out to me all the time, you know, that I wanna be a showrunner. It's like, I just wanted to be a writer. Like, cuz be a show. It's like you just said, you, none of us become comedy writers because we wanna be managers. Like that's not, and when you're a show owner, that's what you're doing. You are managing other people. Yeah. And and, and we're not equipped, we're not prepared for it. And we don't necessarily even want to do that. And, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a hardJonathan Aibel (00:25:06):Leap. Right. And it was, it was definitely challenging also, cuz you're putting all this work in, then you realize, this isn't even my show. This is Greg and Mike's vision, and you're just trying to fulfill their vision. Right.(00:25:21):Like, I can see running my, if Im running my own show saying I love this idea and this is my baby and I'm gonna protect. And I just, I want to be the ur here. I want to see my vision through. But so much of show running isn't that at all? It's, it's, Greg would describe it as it's sort of like pottery where you would make a pot, put it on the shelf and all right, what's the next one? Sometimes they break, sometimes they're not quite formed. But you don't have time. You gotta get to the next Right. Get to make another pot.Michael Jamin (00:25:53):But do you have, and I wanna get to your film career, which is very impressive, but do you have, did you have any like, eyes to go back and do any kind of television, even creating your own show?Jonathan Aibel (00:26:03):We, after King of the Hill, we, we wrote a few pilots. We were at Fox and writing pilots. And it was a weird time in TV where every year Fox would say, we don't want single camera shows. We need, we need Multicam, we need to pair them with whateverMichael Jamin (00:26:20):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:26:21):Hit they had there. We need another, we need to pair this. So we'd write a multi cam and then they would only pick up single camera shows. But I think that happened two or three years or whatMichael Jamin (00:26:29):Yeah. What's,Jonathan Aibel (00:26:30):What's going on? So we started realizing, I, I think we were kind of spoiled by King of the Hill. It was, it was just creatively, it was just an amazing show. And so fun to write those characters and work with those actors and work with that staff that after that it was, I don't, it's hard to just go and do sitcoms. I mean, like, I enjoyed the form, but I couldn't see myself spending 10 more years doing that. And it felt like the the air was coming out of that format.Michael Jamin (00:27:07):Then how did you, how did you jump into features?Jonathan Aibel (00:27:10):Well, it started because King, as I mentioned, king of the Hill was not a guild go in the first years mm-hmm. . So we're doing it, we're in our second or third year, and we realized we're gonna lose our health insurance. What, what? I mean like, it was a very adult sounding realization of, oh, health insurance. What I, I hadn't even been thinking. Because when you're in the Writer's Guild, it's amazing. On a time I was 23, I had health insurance.Michael Jamin (00:27:40):But you had health through the Animators Guild though, through tag.Jonathan Aibel (00:27:43):We weren't animated animation. We were No, it was not unfamiliarMichael Jamin (00:27:47):Anybody. Oh no. Wow. I didn't know that.Jonathan Aibel (00:27:51):So we said to our agent, we need, we need either freelance episodesMichael Jamin (00:28:00):Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Aibel (00:28:01):Or we need to write a feature. And she said, well, do you have a feature spec? And we said, no. And then, and to her credit, she said, there's this director, he's been hired to direct a reboot of Freddy, or of Friday, it was Freddy versus Jason.Michael Jamin (00:28:20):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:28:21):And he loves King of the Hill. And basically it was, can you give him a fun, fun, he's got an idea for story fun characters that he can then kill. Like it was right around Scream had come out. So there was this, the, the Birth of Hard comedy.Michael Jamin (00:28:38):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:28:39):So he said, yeah, we can do that. And we, we met him, we got along, he loved the show. We, we love working with him. So we wrote this script, which then, which then didn't get produced. But it was, oh, this features is kind of like writing King of the Hill, but longer.Michael Jamin (00:28:59):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:28:59):You just kind of write King of the Hill and then you keep writing and keep writing and then you have a hundred pages of King of the Hill instead of 22. Right. But the three act structures similar. And the idea of thinking about a character and how do you write a character, we realized it's kind of more cinematic than episodic television. Like the things we were learning were more applicable to writing features than writing sitcoms at that point.Michael Jamin (00:29:28):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:29:29):So when our television deal was nearing its clothes, and we were thinking, do we renew it? Do we throw our hats out there as, as showrunners for hire? And we thought, you know, let's, let's write, maybe we can write some more features. And we just started getting some rewrites, doing some originals.Michael Jamin (00:29:50):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:29:52):And you can start making a, a decent living writing movies and never get made.Michael Jamin (00:29:57):Oh, for sure. At least you could then. I don't know if it's nowJonathan Aibel (00:29:59):Yes. Yes. Then you then you could. But it was super frustrating. Yeah. Because everything would be about to go and then there would be a reason mm-hmm. it wouldn't go. And there were none of those reasons were under your control. And you, you could, you would do a great job and everyone would love it. And then, oh, this movie just came out. Yeah. Basically the same premise. So, sorry.Michael Jamin (00:30:20):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:30:21):And that's when we had been meeting this, this fantastic exec name Christine Belsen, who was then at Henson.Michael Jamin (00:30:30):Mm-Hmm.Jonathan Aibel (00:30:30):. And we were huge Muppet fans. Right. And she brought us in and we totally hit it off. And she said, I wanna do a Muppet kung fu movie.Michael Jamin (00:30:39):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:30:40):. And we thought, oh my God, yeah, that would be so great. Yes. Sign us up for that. And we said, but you know, we read that that Dreamers is doing this Jack Black, kung fu kung fu Panda movie. And she said, oh, those movies take forever. I don't think it's, I I wouldn't worry about that. So then we don't hear from her for a while. We're worried what's going on. Then we get a call from her. Okay. So I moved over to Dreamworks and we're looking for writers who come from Panda.Michael Jamin (00:31:08):Wow.Jonathan Aibel (00:31:08):And we said, oh, okay. So it was just a case where it started off simple enough, they asked us to come in for just two weeks of consulting to see what they had underway and talk about the story. Cuz it was in a roughMichael Jamin (00:31:25):But had be different. Dreamworks has a whole different system over there. So what do you mean consultant? Cause I know they worked very differently from other studios.Jonathan Aibel (00:31:33):Well, so there had been writers who, well kind of what happens is, you know, king, king of the hill, the Simpsons though, shows very writer driven. Right. It doesn't have time. You don't have time to be anything other than ri writer driven. So the animators are given the script and the audio. Right. And they're So draw this,Michael Jamin (00:31:54):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Jonathan Aibel (00:32:18):And in feature animation, Dreamworks especially, they may take that script and they'll take tens, the first 10 scenes of act, the first half the movie and give it to 10 different storyboard artists who will take that and read it and say, I see what this scene is doing, but maybe I can do it this way. And they will draw something and write it and animate and, and storyboard it and often record the dialogue themselves. And it's sort of like almost like what is it? 32 short films about Glen Gould where you end up with these almost mini movies in the beginning of a movie anyway. Like at the start of a development process where you would watch this movie and say, okay, that PO is different from this PO who's different from that po. And you watch it and you think, this doesn't make any sense, but I can start to see a story in there.(00:33:13):And then they'll do it iteratively. So then you're on that scene there, that moment I really understood who the character was. So more of that moment. So by way of saying, you may have someone who came in and wrote a script, but they might be long gone at this point cuz now it's been torn up it's storyboard and now you're walk working off transcripts where they've written down what's on screen. And that's what you're rewriting off of. So by the team time we came in, there was like a movie ish. Like you could, there was something in black and white you could watch mm-hmm. that everyone knew wasn't necessarily coherent. But the point isn't coherence. The point is what, what jumps out at you? Like we watched and said, oh, I think what you're doing is, it's kind of like a Cinderella story, right?(00:34:06):He's the guy in the beginning who wants to go to the kung fu ball mm-hmm. and can't go. And then the Prince points at him, and then he goes on this thing, and now the bad guy's coming for him and he doesn't know. And is he the chosen one? Or isn't he the chosen one? It's like those are like, now it's, it feels a little glib for me to say that as if it were obvious. It, it was, it's it was not it obvious. It's, it's, you're sitting there thinking, is it this story? No. Maybe it's the story. Some of it is, there are, there are two, Jack, Jack has, Jack Black has two kind of two great. Our type of our typical characters. One is the high fidelity like the jerk Yeah. Who deep down is suffering from low self-esteem. Right. And then he has the friendly guy who deep down is suffering from low self-esteem.(00:35:00):Right. So some of the, the production of the, the development of Kung Fu Panda was, which, which Jack is in our movie. Is he the guy who's chosen to be this kung fu guy and then realizes, oh my God, this is great. Now I don't have to work anymore. Now I can just go to the palace and hang out and relax and, and live it up until he finds out there's a responsibility. So there was some of that version of the movie. Then there's the guy who's wishes more than anything. He can be the kung fu master, but knows because of he's a big panda. That's impossible. Cuz Panas don't do kung fu and then his dream comes true. And then he has to, you know, that's what the movie ended up being. But when you started seeing that character in the opening reel, you'd say, whoa, I, I wanna, I, I wanna know more Right about that. And that's the magic of these time. You hadMichael Jamin (00:35:51):To sense of it. But see that's what I'm, I'm curious though, cuz for me it seems counterintuitive. It feel, it feels like you're putting the cart ahead of the horse. It's like, you know, I wonder if, was that, did you feel the same way? Because usually, you know, okay, we have an idea. We come, we have Ari, the writers come up with a th a thread, you know, through line and there's a story and Well,Jonathan Aibel (00:36:09):It's, it's inefficient for sure. But I think you can look at animated movies for the most part as a genre and say for the most part they're really well constructed.Michael Jamin (00:36:22):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:36:23):And I think this is, this is why, because if a writer's gonna, it's very hard to create a great movie off of six drafts, even eight drafts, 10 drafts. Mm-Hmm. and, and just see it on paper and say, yeah, that's gonna work. Because no one knows how to read a script.Michael Jamin (00:36:43):I see.Jonathan Aibel (00:36:44):Like, even as a professional writer, I don't think I could read a script and say, this is gonna be an amazing movie. You can say this is a great script. Right. But is it gonna be an amazing movie? I don't know, an animation, you're making the movie as you're writing the movie, so it's not you, it makes sense. Theoretical. Is this gonna be good? It's ah, I, I see that moment. I see Poe and his father. Right. Having that moment where Poe is afraid to tell his dad what he wants to do with his life. I see. That's one thing. Makes sense. How do we build on that?Michael Jamin (00:37:17):Right. That makes sense to So it's very collaborative with you and the animators then.Jonathan Aibel (00:37:21):Oh yeah. The storyboard team, the directors, the producer, the actors, Uhhuh . It was it very different from TV animation. Right.Michael Jamin (00:37:32):SoundsJonathan Aibel (00:37:32):Very different. And I, our, our, one of our first the first moment we realized that was the producer said, I I want you to sit in a room with this guy, a storyboard artist and talk about the scene and what it could be. So we sat with him and we worked line by line. We hopped it and said, it could be this could be this. Yeah. I could draw this, do this. Said great, we're gonna write it up. We wrote it up, gave it into him. Three weeks later we go to watch the scene. It's nothing at all we discussed and went to the producer, but a, a thing. She said, yeah, I know, but I know he's kind of out there. And I wanted to see what he would take your stuff and give you, you know, if you, if all you want, if all you're expecting is the best version of what you've already done, you're closing off the chance that you'll be surprised by something.Michael Jamin (00:38:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:38:25):So that's cool. On the other hand, sometimes in their scenes where you just say, can you just please do the, the pages? Right. Like, we've thought a lot about this. We understand. And there's some scenes in that first movie, which went pretty much from our pages to the final version. Cuz they were just compact. They made sense. Right. There wasn't a lot of room, but there wasn't a need for a lot of exploration. It was okay, that works. So let's just get that right going and move on to the theMichael Jamin (00:38:52):Others. So they brought you in under contract for a couple of weeks just to see how you would respond to the animators?Jonathan Aibel (00:38:59):Yeah, we had a after, well, no, to see what we would, it wasn't a trial. It was, they thought in 10 days we would give them an outline that they could work off of.Michael Jamin (00:39:12):But even still, you, they, they knew that they would probably go off via the reservation and you'd be required to Yeah. But that'sJonathan Aibel (00:39:19):Collaborate more. That's, but I think that happened a lot. It wasn't, it was more of then when we pitched our take on it to Jeffrey Katzenberg and he said, great, when you, when can you guys start writing Uhhuh. ? Okay. And then the other people lo looked at each other like, oh, I guess we, I guess we should probably get that, put that deal in place. So then we wrote a draftMichael Jamin (00:39:38):Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Aibel (00:39:40):And then they took the draft and then started going through that process of tearing it apart. And at, at which point they realized it would probably be helpful to have us around. And I think it, what helped is that coming from tv, we, we knew storyboards, we knew how to read storyboards. We knew what happens in an editing room and how actors perform. Right. So we came to it with production skills or an, an understanding of the process that that helped us come in and say, oh, I think you could, you can cut a few frames there and actually know what we were talking about. At, at the same time, the, the big difference was television is it's a, it's a sprint as you know. Yeah. It's, you need to get this done because the actors are gonna be here at 10:00 AM to read this and record this.(00:40:35):So you need something for them. So we were approached feature animation, we gotta get this done, we gotta get this done. And then what you realize is that you, that's the exact wrong way to do because you, you get it all done now then when stuff starts changing, you've already written stuff that's, it's obsolete before anyone has seen it. Right. It's like animation is best. I think it's like, it's a marathon of sprints where we need, this scene has to go into production and Jack is coming in Thursday to record this. We need these three pages done. All right, we'll get it done, we'll get it done. Great. Now in six weeks, we're gonna need sequence 1500 going into rough layout though. That's the next one. I know it's,Michael Jamin (00:41:21):But you're working off an an outline. You know what the story is, right?Jonathan Aibel (00:41:24):You do and you don't. Isn't that, I know that's a weird thing to say, but you, Lenny, I can't tell you the number of boards there that would say big battle, like act three, big battle you know, wrap up epilogue.Michael Jamin (00:41:39):Is this the way animation movies were done like at Disney back in the day? Is this where they're getting this from?Jonathan Aibel (00:41:45):It's possible. I I think what where it comes from is that what's your expense, your greatest expense of time. And therefore money is the animator, the person at Disney drawing the cell mm-hmm. at Dreamworks. That final, the final editor moving frame by frame. That takes a lot of time. And it is such a skill and the people who do it are so brilliant that it's not like you can say we need six more animators who can capture Poe. It's, there's this guy Dan, Dan Wagner, just a brilliant animator and he was the one who could give Poe his soul.(00:42:29):Right. So you only get so much Dan. So you don't want to give Dan 10 scenes to do and say, we're not sure if these are all gonna work. But, so you are not giving the animators the scenes until they're ready at the same time. The animators can only do so much at the same time. So so while they're working on one scene, there's no reason to have the other scenes done. So it's sort of like you back, you back up into the process and you'd say, well if they can only animate these this much now mm-hmm. , well let's keep working on those other scenes and make them better and keep playing with them until it's too late. And then we'll, we'll turn 'em around. Right. So you really, you have the time to get it right. And if you said no, let's rush that. We, we gotta get All right. Now there's no reason to.Michael Jamin (00:43:16):It sounds like this cuz knowing how you guys ran King of the Hill, it sounds like this is like the perfect fit for you because you guys would often rewrite the hell out of a scene trying different ways and just experimenting.Jonathan Aibel (00:43:26):That was, I I think Thank you. I think it was, it, it it is a good fit for us to, to have said, okay, we've written that scene. There, there are a lot of exercises that are, are kind of cool that you can use, which is stuff like, well let's write the opposite. Right? You have someone come into a scene who's really excited, like, well, what if they came into the scene feeling the other way and that you flipped. You kind of have that, the opportunity to exploreMichael Jamin (00:43:58):More. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:43:59):And then, and know that there's no punishment for it because the whole point is to experiment.Michael Jamin (00:44:05):Right. That's the point. So did they keep you under, how does it work? Do they keep you under contract at that point, Dreamworks, to do other movies? Or are you constantly pitching them to get assigned other projects orJonathan Aibel (00:44:17):That No, we had, we had a, it was great in that it started off, I think it was, we were there four days a weekMichael Jamin (00:44:25):Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Aibel (00:44:26):And I think at the time we were in person then it would be three, then after six months, three days a week, as there's less to change, they need less abuse. So then it was two days a week, then one day a week. And then at the same time we were doing other rewrites in other studios. And I think it was when we got down to one day a week, they said, you know, we have this smoothie monsters versus aliens when you wanna work on that. Right.Michael Jamin (00:44:49):So you were never squeeze.Jonathan Aibel (00:44:51):We were one day monsters. Four days.Michael Jamin (00:44:53):All right. So you were alwaysJonathan Aibel (00:44:54):Kind. Yeah, always. Show by show.Michael Jamin (00:44:56):I see. You're always jumping. Right. So it wasJonathan Aibel (00:44:58):Never, and then, and it, it was nice cuz you know, you don't wanna, we liked it because it led us take the projects that spoke to us that Right. Looked like they were gonna be fun. While also, like, the great thing about Panda was it was a hit came out. It was a hit. And when you've written a movie, it's a hit. People want you to write their movies. Right. So it, and and also people want you to write movies similar to the movie that was just a hit.Michael Jamin (00:45:28):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:45:29):So it didn't matter that we had done King The Hill or other stuff. It was, oh, they, they wrote Fu Pan, they should write the Chipmunks movies. We'll offer that to them.Michael Jamin (00:45:38):Right. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:45:39):So talking Animal, oh, here's another talking animal.Michael Jamin (00:45:42):So did you have toJonathan Aibel (00:45:43):Ever Thenn Bozer,Michael Jamin (00:45:46):Did you have to pitch, when you go on further assignments, are they pretty much yours because of, or do you have to pitch? Do you have to win that assignment?Jonathan Aibel (00:45:54):It's always a little of both. I mean, look, we were very, we were very lucky in that they weren't bake offs where Yeah. Six people are coming in to pitch this. It was, I think that the Chipmunks people really like Kung Fu Panda. It was just a rewrite. Can you come? It was over Christmas.Michael Jamin (00:46:16):UhhuhJonathan Aibel (00:46:17):. So I think that that definitely helped that they found us saying, yeah, we'll give up your, our holiday to, to write these pages for you.Michael Jamin (00:46:24):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:46:25):But then the, the luck was these were, these became franchises. So then they come you for Comfort Panda Two and Comfort Panda Three and Chipmunks three. Right. And, and then we through people knew what Dreamwork got to SpongeBob. So then you'd do SpongeBob to second SpongeBob movie that led to the third SpongeBob movie.Michael Jamin (00:46:44):I didn't even mention those. Cause that's not even on your I M D B. We'll have to update that when we get off the, the Zoom. Yeah. What update your page? I didn't know any of this. I didn't know you did the I didn't know you did that. And so, okay. Because that's a big deal. Cause I, I remember, you know, when Si and I, we did, we did a couple of movies. We sold a couples, they didn't get made. We sold a couple movies and then we were all we're brought into you know, we didn't realize they were bake offs. We didn't, so we, we pitched for, you know, a couple big companies, I don't have to mention what they are. And, and we're told Yeah, you got the, you got it. You got it. And then only to discover that someone else got it. We didn't even know o other people were trying to get, like, we had no idea. And that's a lot. You're talking about months and months of heartbreaking wasted work and then the project never even made. So, but you don't really have it's true to deal with that True. Because of your level, you know. Yes,Jonathan Aibel (00:47:34):Yes and no. The the no is if they're, if you've worked with them on Kung fu Panda one, two, and three, there's a good chance they'll come to you for Kung fu Panda four.Michael Jamin (00:47:46):Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:47:47):So, and if you hit it off, feel like they may say, come in with some ideas and they like an idea. So they're not just saying, here's the deal before you've pitched anything. So there were meetings, but you know, they know you can deliver. That's kind of the main thing. Right. If it's people who you don't really know, then yeah. It's, they're rebooting this franchise and their hearing takes. And what we've learned, actually the hard way is if you're going to put yourself in that situation, you want to put as, I don't wanna say as little work as possible. You want to, you wanna do the right amount of work. That's the the best way where, but it's, we've, we've gone in and we've pitched I know, but we've gone in where we've pitched, you pitched for 20 minutes and then you realize by the second sentence you said the words they don't want to hear like, oh, that's not the kind of movie they want to do at all.(00:48:47):Right. And we've learned a better strategies to go and say, here, I I understand you wanna do a silly putty movie. I'm, I'm totally making this up, but here's, you could go this way where Silly Putty, it's a revenge story where it's a John Wick me silly putty. Right. Or it's the origin story of how a serious putty became silly putty because of a, of a family tragedy. And he's the clown who lasts through to you . Like, you know, each of these is an archetype movie. Right. And then it's, I don't know if any of those strike, well we kind of do like that. It's like, okay, okay, well we'll come back to you with that. It'sMichael Jamin (00:49:23):Interesting cuz you set the terms then over the pitch chart. Cuz that's not usually how we go in. We, here's the, here's the take, here's our take. And then, you know, you could be your, you could be completely off. I didn't know you had a choice.Jonathan Aibel (00:49:33):Well, this is a new, this is a new, this is a new realization. Uhhuh having, because you know, kind of what's happened is after doing a lot of these movies, you start to think, okay, I like this. I I know what I'm doing. What's something I don't really know how to do that I haven't done before mm-hmm. . And that's the type of movie where a person isn't necessarily gonna say, Hmm, get me the guys who did Kung Panda. Right. So you gotta hustle for those little more. And those were the ones where I think we were over preparing for many of them by saying we're gonna blow 'em away with the le attention to detail. Yeah. And especially in a Zoom era where you blow 'em away with the tension detail, they're thinking is I just need three sentences to bring the boss. Really? And it's hard because as storytellers you sometimes feel like, I can't, I don't, I'm sorry, I cannot pitch this idea unless I understand the character arts and Yeah. Right. The three acts and you're think, you know, maybe sometimes you can go in and say, and then in the third act there's a huge battle in which the forces of evil have to go against the forces ofMichael Jamin (00:50:39):I see. I would be worried about pitching something that I didn't know how to actually break. You know what I'm saying? Like, youJonathan Aibel (00:50:43):Know. Yes, I know. I, I you eventually, you just kind of have to have confidence and say, you know what, we'll figure something out. We'll figure, it's hard. It's really hard to, even at this point we'll go into a rewrite and say, what is that third act set piece? I don't know, but we'll, we'll, we'll figure it out. And it's in the back of your head thing if I don't get that.Michael Jamin (00:51:06):Yeah. Right.Jonathan Aibel (00:51:08):And then one day it'll be like, oh, wait a minute. Well, what if this happened? Because we just like, it will, it will come to you. And I think it's, it's a little, maybe this is the animation experience. It's a little foolish to even think I know what the perfect act three is before I've actually written Acts one and two.Michael Jamin (00:51:28):Yeah. But you andJonathan Aibel (00:51:29):Instead rely on your instincts and your experienceMichael Jamin (00:51:32):Wanna build to something you wanna, I I it's so, I'm, I'm telling you how to do it. I have no idea how to do it.Jonathan Aibel (00:51:37):No, but, but, but of course you will build to it, you know, you need to build to something, but you may not know the ingredients yet. Like, you'll be writing something and say, well, I'll give you a good example. In, in Conco Panda, we wound up having this, this pose, big realization. Mm-Hmm. that, can I give spoilers after 15 years after movies opened?Michael Jamin (00:51:59):I believe. I believe so. Okay.Jonathan Aibel (00:52:01):So Pose opened the scroll in it's blank, and he realizes he's failed. And his father says to him, it's okay, you can be a noodle old man just like me. And by the way, it's time. I told you the secret ingredient in my suit. And the secret ingredient is nothing. There is no secret ingredient. It was just to make something special, you just have to believe it's special. And really, that was just a joke about his father, who in the first scene we wrote that, oh, that'd be funny if he has a secret ingredient soup. And later we find out there is no secret ingredient. It's just a marketing gimmick. And it wasn't until he got to the later scene where someone, I think this bill Damascus, his name, he is, he was then the executive of dreamworks. And he said, I, I, I like what you're doing there.(00:52:49):You're kind of making comparison between the scroll being blank and the soup, not really having the spec, the specialness, it's that's it into here. And we said, that's not at all what we're, is that what we're doing? That is what we're doing. You know, like, I don't know if we consciously did that or everyone working on the movie was putting that stuff in there. But once, so if we had started with, what is it? We never would've gotten there. But like, it's funny you were talking about ingredients, but we had these ingredients of the father, the soup. We had this scroll that was blank, and it took a whole bunch of time. And thinking for a, a person to look at that with fresh eyes and say, I think you've given yourself the moment you need to do the rest of the movie.Michael Jamin (00:53:37):Do you think this is how they tell their movies at at Pixar? They have a different process. Do you thinkJonathan Aibel (00:53:43):That I I don't, I don't know all I've, all I know of the process there is, they seem to draw on tablecloths.Michael Jamin (00:53:51):Is that Oh, really?Jonathan Aibel (00:53:51):That I don't know. That was at, there's some documentary where they have this, this famous tablecloth that's amazing. Where it was, they weren't, the Brain Trust was meeting. And I said, well, here's some movies I think we could do. There's what if tos come to life? What, what if bugs come to life? What if Bumper Beyond that, I don't really know their process. It's probably somewhat similar.Michael Jamin (00:54:13):So. Interesting. And when you work, you know, you're, and I'm jumping around, but your partner, Glen, he doesn't, he lives not in la So how do you guys do, what do you work in on Zoom? Is that how you guysJonathan Aibel (00:54:24):Yeah, we, oh, we've been Skyped for, for years and years. Just, just audio. Just, I'm a, I'm Aist and I'll tell you why. JustMichael Jamin (00:54:32):Yeah, go on. And why just audio?Jonathan Aibel (00:54:34):I'm a Skype because Skype lets you Skype out. So you can call people's cell phones. So if our agent or lawyer or an executive or I know we need them to take a meeting, he's just stays in my ear and All right, let me patch him in and then you can Okay. Call. also we started before Zoom,Michael Jamin (00:54:49):Right?Jonathan Aibel (00:54:50):So we're And why no video?Michael Jamin (00:54:52):Yeah.Jonathan Aibel (00:54:54):Is, initially it was for bandwidth reasons. It was laggy at Skype at one point, and Glen was out in the sticks and didn't haveMichael Jamin (00:55:03):Because you could have used a cell, a phone. You know that Skype without video. It was a phone.Jonathan Aibel (00:55:08):Yeah. Yeah. There are a lot of other things we could do, but we realized I don't need to see him staring at me. I, I don't, I, and I, I'm not like the old married couple. We're okay with the silence.Michael Jamin (00:55:21):And do you,Jonathan Aibel (00:55:22):When you're going like this and you're not hearing anything,Michael Jamin (00:55:24):Are you on final draft collaborator? Is that what you're doing? Or what? No. Well, how'sJonathan Aibel (00:55:29):That? I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of that You could, we could do. And if it's real, really important, we might say, oh, let's, like now we outline on, on Google Docs.Michael Jamin (00:55:41):Okay.Jonathan Aibel (00:55:41):Instead of sending Word documents back and forth, is this, are you working on Tuesday's version? No, this is Thursday's. Wait. Now you, now you can see it. And that's useful. But I, I feel like daring, there are two ways to write. One is staring at the words and the other is staring at the sky. Right. And one day, some days I feel like doing one Glen feels like one sometimes the other like, I don't want to even know what's there. I just want to, but who's coming up with stuff? In, well, hopefully Glen, there have been times where we'll come up with a whole thing and then say, you got that. I thought you were typingMichael Jamin (00:56:20):.Jonathan Aibel (00:56:21):So we, we usually sa

Today on the Retirement Lifestyle Show, Roshan Loungani, Erik Olson, and Adrian Nicholson continue their discussion on the art of long-term investing - part 2. They break down the key features you must consider in a business before investing in it. [00:00] Introduction [03:01] Recap of the Art of Long-Term Investing Part 1 [04:57] The Benefits of Reviewing a Company's Business Model [07:08] Market Share and Room to Grow [12:07] Why You'd Want to Invest in a Company with a Sustainable Competitive Advantage [19:39] How to Conduct a Business Model Examination [23:33] You Must Understand Where the Company is Investing It's Cashflow [27:00] Assess Management Quality Before Buying Stocks [33:00] Median Market Capitalization [34:10] The Big Question: What Could Go Wrong? [40:03] Have Some Knowledge of the Company You're Investing In [42:38] Price Evaluation Metrics [46:20] Valuation Assessments and the Margin of Safety [52:30] Holding a Stock For At Least 2 Years [55:55] Question: Why am I Right and Why is the Market Wrong? [58:23] What Percent to Buy in a Company [01:02:10] What to Sell to Buy a More Lucrative Stock [01:09:42] Why Roshan Settled on This Particular Process [01:11:03] Parting Thoughts Roshan can be reached at roshan.loungani@aretewealth.com or at 202-536-4468. Erik can be reached at erik.olson@aretewealth.com or 815-940-4652. Adrian can be reached at adrian.nicholson@aretewealth.com or at 703-915-8905. Follow Us At: Website: https://retirementlifestyleshow.com/ https://www.retirewithroshan.com https://youtu.be/hKVzI87v0tA https://twitter.com/RoshanLoungani https://www.linkedin.com/in/roshanloungani/ https://www.facebook.com/retirewithroshan/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/financialerik/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrian-nicholson-74b82b13b/ #retirementlifestylepodcast #fire #podcast #FI #Retire #retirewithroshan #retirement #investing All opinions expressed by podcast hosts and guests are solely their own. While based on information they believe is reliable, neither Arete Wealth nor its affiliates warrant its completeness or accuracy, nor do their opinions reflect the opinion of Arete Wealth. This podcast is for general informational purposes only and should not be regarded as specific advice or recommendations for any individual. Before making any decisions, consult a professional.

House Republicans have an idea that could set US tax code on its ears. Libertarians will (relatively speaking) love it! And establishment Democrats are turning it into something that it is not.Egg prices are high, am I Right?! And Robert Reich gives an activist's, clout seeking explanation for it...and he's also wrong.Kevin McCarthy sounded coherent in a response to a reporter that questioned him about removing Adam Schiff from the Intel Committee.The body cam footage from the attack on Paul Pelosi has been released. And it's boring, regardless of what the conspiracy theorists say. It's clear that video evidence is still not enough to get some folks to see reality.And we've got some sloppy second corrections on HBO Max's Velma and the Crowder v Daily Wire SagaIF YOU LIKE: Dan Carlin Breaking Points With Krystal & Saagar The Fifth Column Reason Magazine The Reason Round Table Dave Smith's "Part of the Problem" Blocked and Reported NPR The Daily Wire The President's Daily Brief The Jordan Harbinger Show The Jimmy Dore Show The Joe Rogan Experience Useful Idiots "Pushback" With Aaron Mate "Honestly" With Bari Weiss Matt Taibbi Glen Greenwald

UnFollowVic S:3 Ep:29 Aired  01/05/2023Happy New Year Everyone! New Year Same Us, am I Right? On today's episode let's dive into the most common New Year's resolution that usually lasts 60 day's or less. Male personality types, which male are you? Jack breaks down the different male personalities and Vic learns he was never what he thought he was. Last but not least, the grinch is out and about and lands in Robert De Niro's $69,000.00 monthly Townhouse.. ForgetaboutitUpdates from Jack and VicNew Year ResolutionSigma Males Jack's News (Robert De Niro Gets Stiffed by the Grinch)Watch us in our Studio onYouTube:https://youtu.be/yDte0WtE59ESupport the showThanks for listening! Follow us on Instagram, Subscribe to our YouTube channel and Let us know what you would like us to cover for a future show. Peace...https://linktr.ee/UnFollowVic

Today I'm talking to Hillary Rea about finding your core story and your superpowers and how you can use them in your storytelling. Hillary Rea is the founder of Tell Me A Story, a communication consulting and coaching business that trains ambitious leaders who want to take up more space, communicate with impact, and become more confident as they become more visible. Through her company's signature Crafting Your Narrative: Solo Retreat, as well as ongoing coaching partnerships, Hillary helps her clients to find their voice and then empowers them to use it — by sharing their unique stories with honesty and passion. She is an award-winning storyteller, and has been telling her own stories on stage for 13 years - as a performer, as the host of a the long-running Tell Me A Story Live Show, and now as a keynote speaker. When Hillary first reached out to me to ask if she could come and speak about Storytelling on my podcast I thought "another Storytelling expert". But then I read further and started to really appreciate her radically different approach to storytelling. And you know how much we like 'radically different' on the Humane Marketing Show. In this episode, you'll learn about finding your core story and your superpowers as well as...   How storytelling helps you identify your superpowers Hillary's reframe of the 'Origin Story' Her take on the Hero's Journey storytelling structure The concept of 'taking up space' with your story And so much more Hillary's Resources   Hillary's Website The Speak Up Session - A free monthly session with Hillary The Speak Up: Be a Dentist Other resources mentioned: NY Times essay by Brit Marling Connect with Laura on: LinkedIn   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: [00:00:00] Hey, Hillary, so nice to have you here. Thanks for coming.  Hillary: Yeah. Sarah, thanks for having me. I've been thinking about our conversation all week.  Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, well, it's been more than a week. I was just saying offline that we connected like many months before, and so I'm just excited to have this different, , approach that you bring to storytelling. But as you know, we're kind of putting this under the p of personal power and I think, it really is a good fit because. Do bring that different approach, about storytelling coming from this personal power. And actually that's where I'd like to start. You know, you talk about superpowers and, we talk about superpowers in marketing as well, like finding out your humane marketing superpowers that you can bring more of you to your marketing. And, and so tell us why that matters in your, , storytelling approach.  Hillary: Yeah, [00:01:00] it's funny. When I think of the word marketing or maybe flashback a handful of years ago, in my perception of marketing, I was always told, oh, it's about the the other person. It's about who you're marketing to. And while I still agree with that, I think. When I was able to make this shift of, okay, yes, it's about that other person who I'm communicating with, but I also need it to be about me as the communicator. And that's why storytelling and sharing a story from my own life that connects to who I am, my superpowers, what I put out into the world, is so important. And I think this idea of personal power with storytelling. We, each of us as the storyteller has control over our narrative, so I can choose what experiences from my life I share with other. People, [00:02:00] and sure other people might have stories about me, stories about my company, my brand, and there might be stories I tell myself that maybe aren't the nicest or the, the truest mm-hmm. But if I really zero in and focus on the story, I choose to express outwardly to other people, to me that's where the power is. And that personal power and, and light and how that connects with super power. Is I can find the experiences in my life that support what I consider my superpowers, or when I'm working with clients on their storytelling, we do a full exercise that helps them identify what their superpowers are, and then we continue the brainstorming of, oh, what are the experiences that you've had in your life? Looking at all aspects of your life that really support these superpowers, and how can you craft that into the narrative that makes the most. For your audience.  Sarah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I [00:03:00] love that. It's a very similar approach to what we do in, in the marketing, like we're human program because we need to first go deep and figure out, you know, who are we and what's our story? And we're gonna talk a little bit later about this origin story or you have another name for it. Mm-hmm. . So who am. But then also, yeah. How does that connect with my ideal client? And I'm so glad you brought this up. You know, it's like this idea of marketing being only about the client. And, , as I just said offline, I'm, currently recording the marketing like we're human book and I was taught that the client is always king, right? That's kind of like one of these marketing things. It's like the client is king and, kind of thinking, oh, everything I do has to serve this client then makes you think, oh, people don't even care about. I am and what my stories are. I have to focus everything on this. Yeah. Outside source. And [00:04:00] I'm so glad you brought this up, that this is really like a reframe. It's like, yeah, the client is important and yes, we wanna understand them, but in order to actually resonate, we need to first also, , find out who we are and, and what our stories are. And that means finding out these superpowers.  Hillary: Yeah, and I think what I learned early on in, in sharing stories for my own life, I started as a performer telling my own stories on stage in front of audiences. At the time, I think I went into it thinking like, oh, I'm funny. I can entertain people. But what I soon learned and felt is that a story isn't one sided, and there's that automatic reciprocity and exchange with a listening audience. They're hearing my story, they're taking it in. If there's opportunity for conversation after, people tend to share stories of of their own lives that connect or resonate somehow. And when I was [00:05:00] able to. That that storytelling was a conversation. I trusted myself more that I could, again, like channel what's inside of me, channel, the experiences I've had and who I am to then have that conversation with an audience.  Sarah: Right? So it's like you're not just telling the story to avoid you actually. There to be feedback. Right. That's the communication and connection part. It's like we're not just doing this as performers. Even I would say even performers, they want feedback from the audience, otherwise they wouldn't do it. So, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so interesting. So that kind of leads as then, , I already hinted at. This origin story, right, that we're, again, it's another thing that we, I guess we hear a lot from storytelling experts. We have to have this origin story, , and then we need to tell it in a, in a compelling way. You have [00:06:00] there as well kind of a suggesting a reframe. So tell us about how you call it and, and what's different, Sure. With the  Hillary: origin story. Yeah. Early on in starting my. I used the phrase origin story for everything. And I would say I work with a lot of business owners, entrepreneurs, and also leaders of larger companies. And for everyone, I would say what you just said of you have to have an origin story, and there would be this immediate wave of overwhelm of, oh, my good, my goodness. I have to start from the very beginning of my. And like take everyone through my education, my expertise, my awards, my accolades, and then what if I've changed my business or changed my career or, or another thing in my life has changed. How do I explain that? And there was always this pressure of, it has to be this all-encompassing story. I have to make sense of myself, make sure people understand [00:07:00] who I am. And there would also be times where I would be listening to other. And hosts would say, oh, so what's your origin story? And again, there would be like this long winded response from people where you know that they're trying to get to the end, but the, the preparation or the thought put into it maybe wasn't considered as much. And so when I started teaching storytelling, I defined origin story to be less overwhelming. And it's a story that answers two questions. How did you get to where you are now and how did you get your superpowers? And so again, going back to superpowers, I do a really intensive exercise with my clients around identifying what those are. And then when we get to that question, the how did you get to where you are now, which is pretty standard for an origin story. I splice the question in half and I reverse it. So it's Where are you now? And how did you [00:08:00] get there? And by focusing on the where are you now, it allows people to tap into the presence of where am I now in my business? Where am I now in my life? Where am I now in terms of how I wanna communicate with other people? And once you have that, it's really finding those moments in your life that illuminate that, that support that. So it doesn't necessarily mean starting at the I was Born moment, or. The birth of the business moment, it could really be a more recent moment in time that supports who you are, what you do, what you stand for. And so that is a, to me and to everyone, I work with a really liberating way to think about it. Again, it it's a. A way to tap into that personal power and strength of like, this is who I am now and this might change, and when it changes, I can adjust my story as, as such. Mm-hmm. . and then really in the last handful of [00:09:00] months, I've decided not to use the word origin story at all because I don't want that overwhelm and that pressure, , to envelop people and hold them back from sharing their story or finding their story. And I, I saw that it still was overwhelming people. And so I've landed on this new term called Core Story. That still has that same definition, but it helps people stay again in that inner strength and personal power as they're communicating outward.  Sarah: Mm. Yeah. So much good stuff in there. And, and I think I, I will have to kind of adapt the way I talk about the I don't think I ever mentioned the word origin story, but we talk about, , in the marketing, like we're human program creating our story. So I don't really use origin or core, but it's true that there's some. Overwhelm when people are first thinking about, you know, what is my story? And so I, I totally agree with [00:10:00] you , on that overwhelm part. What I'm wondering, and I'd like to hear from you is like, because when they actually do write the story and sometimes they have to go like really deep and eventually when it does come out, it may be too long. But they feel like such a big sense of relief that they have actually put it on paper and they see it and it's almost like it's healing to work through that story. ] what's your take on that healing part of putting it on paper?  Hillary: Yeah. So when I work with my clients, we work on this core story for two months, right? It starts out rather large in terms of spanning time or diving deep into like a, a period of life that supports , the person where they are now and what they wanna talk about. And often in that there's a letting [00:11:00] go of old narratives. So whether it's the story they. To telling about themselves and their business or like in Yeah, an inner voice that's been telling a story for a long time. Sometimes that just comes out in the crafting process. Right. And once it's out there, I often hear, oh, that's definitely not the story. I'm really glad that I said it now and I don't need to say it again. Right. And so that tends to happen, and as I continue to work with people and fine tune. The story, I do something called Zoom in. And so as someone sharing their story, I will pause them in our work together and say, zoom in on what it felt like in the garden when you had that idea. Mm-hmm. . And what happens is each person. Goes into specifics, goes into details like visual details, sensorial details, what [00:12:00] they were feeling, a new perspective now as a storyteller on how they were feeling then, and those are the moments that stick. In the story. So there isn't really a necessity for like extra backstory or extra details. It's really finding the moments of specificity and finding the moments of movement. Mm-hmm. in the story. And what that ends up doing is it, it does. Shorten it and, and each storyteller still understands the context of everything, but the audience doesn't necessarily need that context, which is also really powerful to let go of the extra. Yeah.  Sarah: This is so good. I'm gonna share this episode , with the group. Right now, even though it goes out in a few weeks, cuz I think that that is kind of the. Maybe the missing piece. , it's like, yes, you need to, at least, I think for me, I'm still gonna tell 'em, look, yes, write your story. , and it seems like [00:13:00] that's what you're saying as well. You're working on this and so there, it may be a lot longer at the beginning, but then you work your way. Back and, and kind of come to the essentials and therefore the term, , your core story. And, and it makes it easier for the reader to then connect the dots, right? , rather than having all this extra fluff that people go, huh, how is that even relevant here?  Hillary: Yeah, and when there's a written version of the story, the core story, I still approach everything from a spoken version place. So a lot of my clients, all of them actually have to do both. They have to go through a process where, where there's writing involved, but I also make them practice with what I call low stakes audiences. So trusted friends, business best. Not so much family members or partners, but people in your life that you feel comfortable around but might not already know everything about you. And in that practice work, [00:14:00] especially trying it with different audiences, they continue to find the story and find again what's. Worth sharing and what needs to be shared when there's a listening audience there. Yeah. So even when it goes back to written form and you don't know who's there connecting with your story, you can still, again, feel the connection and feel the conversation of those live spoken experiences.  Sarah: Yeah. So good. We talked about superpowers, so I'm curious, what are your superpowers and how do you use them in your storytelling? Yeah,  Hillary: so I love this question. I have two worksheets that I give my clients in the brainstorming phase of their core story work, and one is identifying superheroes and what connects, and that could be like fictional characters. People alive now, people from history. Mm-hmm. , people that are close to the person. It could be [00:15:00] any, anybody really. But I make them do that. Identify what connects those people together and what connects you to those people in terms of values or , accomplishments or feelings, things like that. And then I transition them to this super powers worksheet. And I hadn't done it for myself. And so in preparation for this podcast yesterday, I took some time and I filled out both of those worksheets and it was so difficult and I now have so much more respect. , I'm even more respect for my clients because it is a really hard task. To do. And so there's a list of 10 superpowers, like for them to brainstorm, and then there's the desert island three. If you had to choose only three, what would they be? So the three that I chose from my list of 10, I'm looking down at my paper. Mm-hmm. , uh, my voice, my visual imagination, and the fact that I'm an opportunity creator. Mm. And it was [00:16:00] really hard to land on those. But I feel like they encompass who I am as a human, who I am as a leader, who I am as a business owner, and they are things that I can tap into and share stories about, but also just inform. How I take up space and show up in the world. So I feel really good about what I landed on, but it, it was pretty difficult.  Sarah: It's hard. Yeah. Of course. We're now curious what the other seven are. Can  Hillary: you read those to us? Yeah, sure. So I said feedback and it's interesting because I know I'm really good at giving feedback. I had a, a job many years ago where I was trained in like a very specific feedback style, and I've carried it through into my. Business, but it's also things that I hear like that is something I hear from clients of like, wow, you're so good at giving feedback. Mm-hmm. . So I claim that, , my listening ear, so I have a degree in music. I'm a trained singer. We had to take classes and college that literally trained our [00:17:00] ear, but I know that informs how I hear stories and what I. To and how I can help people in that way. I said my visual imagination, that's like just in terms of what I see possible, but then also how I bring stories to life and how I help people bring stories to life. Mm-hmm. commitment to self, which is one I've like really worked on over time, but feel like that is a power that I. Like now have, that's unwavering. , my comedic lens. So my background, a bit of my background is in comedy as well. And, , my partner and I are always in competition about who's funnier and he's day, , that skill, he still thinks he's like naturally funnier. I don't know if I agree, but skills wise, I, I am the funnier person. , , a vision for what's possible. So that's for myself, for other people, for the world. Like my vision for if everyone using storytelling and what's possible, if that was the case. Mm-hmm. , [00:18:00] my feet. And so that has to do with, , my sense of groundedness, but also I'm tap dancer. And I actually hear stories and rhythms and I like think about it like in terms of tap dancing and then also my feet in terms of like my convictions, like I am grounded in like what I stand for, what I believe in and in my, for my voice, the one I shared of my top three. It's also, it's the way I use my voice to take up space and share stories, but also my singing voice and knowing that that's there to support me as well. Number nine, determination. And 10 was opportunity creator. And again, that's for myself and for other people. And just knowing that, yeah, opportunities can come, but they can also be created.  Sarah: Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I can see how that must have been really hard. First, I was thinking you gave people a list with the different superpowers, but No, you came up with those 10 for you specifically. So everybody has to come up with [00:19:00] 10 or however many on their own, right? Yeah,  Hillary: and And it's amazing what people come up with. Mm-hmm. , because it's in their own like language and framework . For how they move through the world. Yeah. And it's, and then there's some that are really, that are shared by so many people. Yeah. Which I think is really great. But no, I don't, people have to come up with their own list. But they, but the superheroes exercise is a springboard into that list because they already start to identify, okay, who, what connects me to this group of people that I Right. Like, respect that inform my life in some way. Yeah. So there it's definitely one leads in's the other, for sure.  Sarah: I just shared one of mine on, on a LinkedIn post recently, so it's top of mine. , one of mine is starting with the no, so meaning I always. Look at how can we simplify, streamline, make things easier, , less overwhelming. So that's kind of one of my superpowers, I think. Like just very [00:20:00] straightforward and yeah, simplifying things. I love  Hillary: that. And I can already imagine so many stories. Mm-hmm. where there were things in your life where when you started with the know what happened or moments in your life. Maybe should have started with the No, but you can share them as a, a learning Yeah. Experience too. That's so  Sarah: cool. Exactly. Yeah. That's wonderful. All right. I'm really excited also to go into the next topic, which is the, the hero journey, , topic that you and I had some interesting email conversations about already. , You know, it's part of that storytelling vocabulary and, and a lot of storytellers follow that hero, journey. , and I actually wrote in the, in the book, I'm like, you know, I think I'm actually getting tired of that, same old hero journeys, , story. And so when you and I talked. My email, you shared some, also some interesting thoughts on, on that, so I'd love to hear them hear.  Hillary: Yeah. [00:21:00] It's interesting because I, I felt a pressure that I don't even think I realized I had to have a hero's journey story starting when I was telling stories in front of audiences for entertainment, but also at the early stages of my business and needing, I felt like I needed a story that. Expressed power and strength that I wasn't actually, that wasn't mine. Mm-hmm. like it was someone else's. Right. And that's sort of, I guess, esoteric the way I just said it, but it felt like I had to be someone else in my story. Right. To get to a certain type of, Story, a certain type of result, a certain type of messaging. And it was this inner struggle. And I think I never, I always was resisting it, but I couldn't really fully identify why it didn't sit well with me. And then in February of 2020, I'm on New York times.com. And there's this opinion piece [00:22:00] written by this woman named Brit Marling, and she is a writer, director, actor. She had a brilliant science fiction show that was on Netflix called The oa. And she's done some films as well. And it was a article something. The title is like, I don't wanna Be Another Strong Female Lead. And this, it's a beautiful essay and a beautiful series of stories about Brit Marlin's life before she became an actor. And, and the sort of powerful role, woman role she had to live up to, like in the, in the finance industry. And then when she was getting these strong female roles in film, they would get killed off or beaten or all of these things. And as I'm moving through this article, she brings up the Hero's journey and Joseph Campbell. And talks about that structure with the inciting incident and the rising action and the climax and the deman, the like happy ending resolution. And she compared it to a male orgasm . And I'm [00:23:00] reading this article and I was like, Oh yeah. . And then the end of the essay, and I'll make sure to that you can share it , in the notes. Yes, please. Starts asking all these questions of like, well, what if there are other ways of telling stories? Like what's the, the feminine journey story and, and what happens if we imagine all of these different types of narratives then can come in And I looked and I, I, after I read that, I. Fully in myself and in my work and, and I understood myself more and I understood my approach to storytelling more. And I really like put a stake in the ground of like, yes, there is another way. We don't need heroes journey. It's not about this one person battling. Inner and outer demons and getting on top and everybody else is under them. There are other structures for storytelling, and especially in business and marketing. There are other ways to invite people into our experiences as the founder, business [00:24:00] owner leader, and so that was. A really powerful moment for me, and from that point on, I've pretty much been on my anti-heroes journey, train, and inviting people to join me. When I tell other people and invite other people to imagine other ways of telling stories, oh, the freedom it brings. And also, again, I think it helps people access that inner personal power versus this idea of like achieving power that that structure brings about.  Sarah: Yeah. Oh, I had forgotten about the orgasm thing, but that is just, yeah, I need to reread it. It's so good and it, it is funny to me how, to me, it's a bit of an outdated, way of looking at business or even life and, and, yeah. It is because it's, very male and , this strong surviving kind of thing where if you look at it from the [00:25:00] feminine approach, it would be completely different. And it also made me think of what we, mentioned earlier , maybe the client doesn't want heroes like we were told to tell this hero's journey because the client would look at us as having lived through these difficult times. And, and it's kind of this rag and richest story, right, that America loves. I just saw last week an article, oh, in America we love some good rag riches story. Yeah. And it's true, right? That's part of the, culture as well. But maybe the today's conscious client doesn't want those stories. And that's what I say in, in marketing, like, we're human is like, well, I can't tell you that kind of story because I, I'm not there. You know, I'm right here, right now and I'm, , starting over. And so in a way, I feel like the conscious client wants to be on the same level, not hearing you how you have [00:26:00] suffered and now you. , succeeded and you're now a multimillionaire. So I think people have changed and, and consciousness has changed as. Hillary: Yeah, and I work with a lot of clients that have service based businesses, so whether they're like a mindset coach or they specialize in a specific topic, like I have a client that specializes in high functioning anxiety, and she's a former therapist, her coach. Right. And she has. High functioning anxiety. So she's trained as a clinician and a therapist and understands it that way. But she has really tapped into saying, Hey, this is something that can't be fixed and it doesn't go away, but here's what you can do to quiet it, to build self loyalty, to move through the world. And she has really found like people respond to her and. I'm so happy that you shared this. Mm-hmm. , I feel like I don't feel broken anymore. I feel like there, it's possible for me [00:27:00] to live my life and I understand that it doesn't go away, and I understand that you go through it, but you also know how to help. And so just again, it like builds a bridge and deepens those connections with an audience. And I do it myself in terms of like a lot of my clients, especially in their marketing endeavor. They wanna take up more space and be visible, but without the like, Big show or without, you know, they wanna do it as themselves. Like so much of what you talk about, , and I talk about, I tell stories about how scary it can be to take up space or the struggles with visibility and, and where that fear comes in and where the like, oh, what if I'm perceived this way or that kind of, all of those what ifs and things like, I still go through them as well, and I, and sometimes there are better days and so, There are are worse, and that that's always gonna be an ongoing issue and struggle. Sarah: Yeah. I feel like in a way, the hero's journey is part of the [00:28:00] old. Marketing paradigm as well, where we didn't share with transparency. We just shared, you know, the 6, 7, 8 figure success, right? It's like, oh look, I came from nothing and now I'm, I have an eight figure business where that just. I believe definitely doesn't resonate with our audiences, but it also will no longer resonate as much with other people because we're, we just want transparency. That's what we want today. So in a way, to me, the hero's journey, at least the way he saw it, kind of belongs to the past. we need to have different frameworks and, and I'm so glad you're, you're offering these, I  Hillary: just, one thing too about the hero's journey is there's a pressure for an ending that hasn't necessarily happened yet, and yeah, one thing I really appreciate that I heard you say in conversation with, I believe, Lisa, in your conversation about storytelling, there is this idea of the messy. [00:29:00] Middle. Mm-hmm. and that they, when you let go of the hero's journey structure, there's so much storytelling that can happen about the messy middle, right? That, again, serves you as the communicator, but also the audience in all of the ways we just. Talked about  Sarah: as well. Yeah, exactly. That, that's what really connects with your audience and, and, and then of course, yeah, you need to think about Brene Brown and think about the vulnerability and decide, well, how, what's the intention behind me sharing this? Is there integrity behind this? , me sharing this or, or, because right now we all know that, okay, it sells to share with vulnerability. So obviously we don't just want to share it because it sells, but because we really want to. Connect and relate with our audience. But, but yeah, the messy middle, that's where, that's where the good stories are, right? Yeah.  Hillary: Yeah. And I think one set of questions I take myself through [00:30:00] and take my clients through is the, why am I telling this story? And what do I want my listener to do once they've heard this story? Mm-hmm. . And I feel like when those questions are answered and identified, the, it's like the checklist of integrity, the checklist of intentional vulnerability that's safe, both for the communicator and for the audience. It's not manipulative, it's not oversharing, all of that. So I love that too. And again, I think going back to personal power. That gives you more inner strength as the communicator to be like, oh no, this is why I'm sharing this. Yeah. And this is what I want them to do once they've heard or hope that they'll do once they've heard. Yeah.  Sarah: Yeah. So good. You mentioned several times this term of , taking up space. So how does being in your personal power and telling stories from that place, how does that help us with taking up space? [00:31:00]  Hillary: I found for myself, and I found it through storytelling, that when I was able to know myself and know how I wanted to share myself with other people and then find those stories that I wanted to share. I was not afraid of taking up space because it's this like my inner message of like, this is who I am. I know myself. I'm committed to myself back to one of my superpowers, and I have a reason for sharing this. Story with you. So I have no choice but to take up space because I am doing it with intention and with the goal of this. Creating a dialogue. Creating a connection. And so I believe that storytelling gives people that personal power to get comfortable being visible, to get comfortable taking up space, which marketing is getting comfortable, being visible, getting comfortable taking up space as you are. Authentic self and as the [00:32:00] expert that you are coming from that authentic, genuine place. So I think that it's like grounded in a trust of self, but then it's also, you have to trust your story and trust that it will communicate for you and do the work for you. And then there's that third piece, which is you have to also trust your audience in order to take up space and be visible. And that can be really scary too, especially if it's a audience. Is landing on a webpage and you don't know who they are listening to a podcast and you don't necessarily have a face or a name to connect.  Sarah: Yeah, and I feel like. If you're doing that deeper work of really figuring out, okay, what is the core story and not, like we mentioned before, you know, what are was my education, what are my accolades and accreditations and all of that. Then you're taking up space from a different place, , not from necessarily the ego, but probably from your gut more. [00:33:00] And so it's a different, it's not. It's not an intimidating space or a, you know, ego driven space. It's just. Grounded space in a way. It's like, here I am, you know, this is what I believe in, this is what I stand for. You like it, great. I open my arms. If you don't like it, you know, feel free. , go to the next person. That's what I perceive.  Hillary: I love that visualization of, of open arms and then, and like I think of it as like a heart centered right way of com, like your stories coming out of your mouth, but it's also coming out. Your heart. And I think it takes a bit of, , like I, I've never sky gone skydiving or bungee jumped, but I think it's this idea of like letting the trust and self trusts and story trust in the audience be a letting go in the moment and saying like, this is, yeah. What you said. This is who I am, this is what I believe, this is what I have to offer the [00:34:00] world here. I go, mm-hmm. . And it can feel really scary at. But it's the most freeing feeling to communicate from that space versus any other space of trying to fit into a, a template or a formula or put on a character or a facade. Like it just isn't worth it. . Yeah.  Sarah: So what would you tell someone, uh, tell our listeners. If they want to, you know, you know, get this deeper trust and probably figure out their superpowers to start from where, where would they go?  Hillary: Yeah. I mean, it really does start with a trust in self and I think there's a lot of brainstorming work, like even just sitting and thinking. What stories from my life are even coming to mind immediately and without trying to bring in the logical of like, well, why is this coming to mind? And all that, but just trusting the memories and the [00:35:00] brainstorming ideas that are coming to the surface and just logging them in some way. Mm-hmm. , I make my clients have something called a story bank. I think your um, Lisa mentioned something about a story bank. Mm-hmm. as well. Mm-hmm. . Um, but just logging your brainstorming ideas there and, and keeping them there and holding onto them for the time when you're ready to explore it as a story. So I take my clients through like a two hour brainstorming experience as part of the work that they do. I know a lot of my stories, idea story ideas have come from just like a, a flash of a memory that I had or an object that's in my space that reminds me of something. So I would say that's a really great place to start in terms of cultivating the trust. Mm-hmm. . And then it's a matter of, ooh, let me. Go with this one idea and let's see what happens if I add a beginning, middle, and end. I may be right some around it. Practice [00:36:00] telling the story in an off the cuff way to a friend, and then building trust in the story and the storytelling and what that can do for you. I would say those are the good places to start. The trusting audience stuff can definitely, Take longer  Sarah: to, it's a muscle, right. That you kind of practice. Yeah. Yeah. What I would I add also is, is this creativity thinking. Like what, what I wrote about in the book is this idea of, for probably a decade now, we know about storytelling, but if you come from this left brain thinking, analytical mind of I have to do marketing and now I have to, you know, tell stories in my marketing, your left brain. Is an overtrained muscle where your right brain is an undertrained muscle, and so your left brain will always want to bring in some techniques and, and, and features and benefits and, and those make. Don't make for a [00:37:00] good story, right? Where really the right brain is bringing in the creative storytelling approach. And so I would say yeah, bring in some creative, , activities let that brain take off and, and, and experiment freely. , to me it really. When I understood storytelling is when my right brain turned on. I'm like, oh, okay. So it's more about connecting with my audience and not about, you know, making them do something or buy something or, or any of that. So I think that was, , yeah, important to share here.  Hillary: Yeah, and I think listening to other people's stories, whether it's like in someone else's marketing, but also just. Watching videos of storytellers on YouTube or listening to storytelling podcasts, right. At any time I hear someone really like in their story and sharing, I'm connected to it, but at the same time, it's helping me think of stories from my life that I want [00:38:00] to share. Yeah. And also I know when I go for walks or. My ideas always come to the surface, and I always have like a, either on my phone or a notepad next to me. , I just shared a story about my dentist in my newsletter, and that had been, I, that appointment was in. July, I think. So I was sitting with that story just brainstorming wise until I was ready to share it and had a reason to share it with my audience as  Sarah: well. Mm. Yeah. That's good. There needed to be a reason, right? Because obviously otherwise, Yeah, it's just a story, but if there's a reason for the story, then it always is more compelling. Yeah. Yes. This has been so good. Thank you so much for sharing a different, very refreshing and radical approach to storytelling. I really appreciated it. Let people know where they can find you and find out more about [00:39:00] your way of doing things.  Hillary: Sure. So the best place to connect is on tell me a story's website, which is tell me a story.info. And there's also a link on that page to something called the Speak Up session. It's a monthly free gathering that I host virtually, all around storytelling and taking up space and, and visibility. And there's typically a guest storyteller that. Jumping off the ledge, ready to share their story with a, a wonderful, warm audience. And then opportunity to kind of dive into your own storytelling and communication challenges. So I invite anyone listening that wants to check that out, to sign up and  Sarah: come. Wonderful. Yeah, we'll make sure we add that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much. I have one last question, Hillary, and that is what are you grateful for today? Or this. Mm.  Hillary: I mean, this is very literal, but I'm really grateful for our conversation and I'm also grateful. [00:40:00] That I reached out to you. I used my voice to reach out with you many months ago because you and your work really resonated and we had such a lovely conversation. And so I'm grateful for this relationship that has been built and for being in conversation with someone that is so aligned. It's really lovely and I'm just a fan of your work, and your work is important and much needed. So thank you. Thank  Sarah: you. And likewise, thanks so much for being.

Lisa Yates, who currently works at Mt. San Jacinto College, enhances the lives of all persons she encounters through her work as a disability counselor/disability specialist. Listen to this episode so Lisa can tell you more about her job and how she is helping to educate everyone about improving perspectives concerning what the concept of “disability” is all about.   Lisa went back to school after more than 25 years of being a mom and starting a family. She is currently working on her Ph.D. dissertation through the Notre Dame of Maryland University.   As you will hear, Lisa and I had a lively and relevant discussion about persons with disabilities. Discussions like ours in this episode are, I think, one of the best ways that we all can grow to understand that persons with disabilities are far from being “disabled”.   I look forward to receiving your comments and thoughts about my conversation with Lisa. Also, as always, should you know of anyone who you feel would be a good guest on Unstoppable Mindset, please reach out. Of course, that includes you as a possible guest.   About the Guest: Lisa M. Yates Mt. San Jacinto College: Disability Support Counselor/Learning Specialist Notre Dame of Maryland University: Doctoral Candidate 2021 Nancy Kreiter Student Research Day Award recipient (Notre Dame of Maryland University) Lisa currently serves students with dis/abilities as an academic and dis/ability counselor at Mt. San Jacinto College in Southern California. Lisa has previously worked in 5 community colleges, as a Learning Disabilities Specialist, Student Success Counselor, Veterans Counselor, Job Development Counselor, and Autism Specialist. In each position, Lisa has been committed to treating dis/ability as a diversity and equity issue. Lisa earned her Masters Degree in Special Education from California State University, Fullerton, and her Learning Disabilities Specialist certification from Sacramento State University. Lisa is currently in the dissertation phase of Notre Dame of Maryland University's Ph.D. program in Higher Educational Leadership for Changing Populations. Her dissertation research focuses on utilizing experiential learning to explore dis/ability perceptions in non-dis/abled college stakeholders.   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:20 Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet unexpected as always fun. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, your host welcome from wherever you may happen to be. We're glad you're with us and really appreciate you joining us. Lisa Yates is our guest today. And she I could say a lot about you Lisa Yates. Lisa loves the Academy Awards. In fact, we were just listening to a little segment from the 1943 Academy Awards presented in 1944 were Casablanca one for Best Picture that year, one of my favorite movies. But anyway, Lisa has worked at a number of colleges has been very much involved in diversity, inclusion and disabilities and a variety of things like that. We're gonna get into all of that during the course of the next hour. So Lisa, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?   Lisa Yates  02:13 Thank you very much for You're welcome. I'm, you know, I'm excited. I'm nervous. I'm overwhelmed by life right now. So I'm excited, though, have this conversation.   Michael Hingson  02:29 So what's overwhelming you today?   Lisa Yates  02:33 Well, I'm in the what is the experiment phase of my dissertation, in focus on Disability Studies in Higher Education. And I'm collecting participants. And so I'm hoping to get enough and all of the stress that's involved in that. My adviser told me today that this is the fun part. And I said, Are we having fun yet, because I'm not quite having fun. But I think once I get my participants and actually start the, the experiment, it will probably be very fun. And I the Supreme Court decision that came down today and the one yesterday have overwhelmed me as far as concerns about the future of the country. And, and and actually, I'm concerned about what might happen with disability rights in America because the argument that they used for overturning Roe v Wade, was that it was not in keeping with the history and tradition of the interpretation of the Constitution for this country. And, you know, ugly laws were in keeping with the history and tradition of this country. And ugly laws stated that people with disabilities could not be seen in public and yeah, so I'm concerned on a lot of other was   Michael Hingson  03:57 also the decision on what was it Tuesday regarding religious freedom and the rights of religious organizations and so on and how is that going to affect the ADEA   Lisa Yates  04:10 right, and the gun the gun ruling for New York City after such a horrible shooting and involved in Buffalo that you know, I I just I am concerned about people having guns on their person that are not able that people other people don't know that they have them and I just feel like the country right now is so anxious and stressed and frustrated and polarized and how will carrying guns concealed weapons help that situation? I just I don't know what's happening. I'm just saw an   Michael Hingson  04:53 interview this morning with the mayor of New York and Mr. Adams was was talking about that very thing. He said that this is going to make law enforcement a lot more difficult to do. Certainly the concept of Roe v. Wade, and overturning a precedent that had been in place 50 years, especially when some of the Supreme Court justices as they were being considered, during the last administration said, we're not going to overturn precedent. Well, they just did. So that's right. They did. Well, Tony, will tell me a little bit about you in terms of, obviously, you were very much involved in disabilities and so on. I'd love to know more about how you got involved in that and kind of what your early life was about.   Lisa Yates  05:41 Okay, well, how far back should I go?   Michael Hingson  05:44 Oh, as far as you want a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. Yeah.   Lisa Yates  05:49 Oh, Star Wars reference like it? Well, I, I have done presentations before where I've shared with people that when I was growing up, we never, ever saw people with any kind of disability. We call them handicaps back then I call them predicaments now, but we never saw people because they weren't allowed in restaurants. And they weren't allowed in public places. And they didn't go to our schools. And so that was my upbringing, and exposure with disability. If I did see somebody, it was maybe a disabled veteran who was kind of on the corner with a brown bag and a bottle, you know, because there was just nothing that they could do, or places they could go. I fast forward, had four children was a stay at home mom for 25 years, I had gotten my bachelor's degree in liberal studies like 100 years ago, and then stayed home after I got my bachelor's degree for 25 years. And when it was time to go back to school, I was planning on pursuing a speech. Well, it wasn't time to go back to school, we were about to lose our house in the housing market, fiasco that was 2008. And I couldn't get a job, even though I had a bachelor's degree. And so I decided to go back to school and get a certificate in speech language pathology, where I would work with a speech language pathologist supporting students with autism or speech difficulties. And the the, my professor found that I had a bachelor's degree and she said, Why don't you get a master's in speech language pathology instead of being an assistant? And so I got a scholarship that was actually for women returning to school after an absence, who had a hardship in Riverside County.   Michael Hingson  07:51 It was that specific why is that specific or what? Yeah,   Lisa Yates  07:55 so I went to Cal State Fullerton based on that scholarship to pursue a master's in speech language pathology. While doing that, I found out that they had 300 applicants a year and they took 28. And that there was a really good chance that I wouldn't get accepted. Even if I had straight A's, which I almost did. One teacher gave me a B plus, I've never forgiven that teacher. But I know I know. And her reason was just ridiculous. But I won't go into that. And so I was concerned that I might not be one of those people picked. I started exploring a master's in special education instead found out that I could, I was guaranteed a spot in that program, got into that knew that I didn't really want to teach kids in K through 12 found out that there was a learning disability certificate program through another University, Sacramento State, and that if I did that I could work in a community college as a learning disability specialist. So while I was completing my Master's at Cal State Fullerton, I did this one year program at Sacramento State on learning disability certification for adults. Did that worked five colleges over the next I don't know, four years, part time got a full time position as a veteran's counselor at Chaffey College, which is a community college in Southern California. And then from there, I got a disability counseling position tenure track at the college that I'm now working in, in Southern California as well. And so I've also worked as an autism specialist at another college, a student success counselor at another college learning disability specialists and, and I've brought all of that into what I do now, which is, I think, serving students with disabilities like the whole person, not just managing or providing accommodations, to help them learn based on on whatever that specific challenges I like to, I really like to help the whole person and support the whole person. So that's what I do.   Michael Hingson  10:09 You have certainly been a very busy individual, academically and so on. Yeah,   Lisa Yates  10:15 I like learning. Even when I was a stay at home mom, I was very much into my girls. I have four daughters, their education, and just always trying to learn more about how to be a good mom, because there's no manual for that.   Michael Hingson  10:30 I mean, I don't do that. They don't give out meals for those.   Lisa Yates  10:33 Now, so I'm just trying to learn stuff about and active in the community and trying to figure out how to do things in the community. I've just always been a learner. Yeah, well,   Michael Hingson  10:43 So how old are the girls?   Lisa Yates  10:46 My youngest is 25.   Michael Hingson  10:49 I thought we were. Yeah, it was ages. Oh, yeah.   Lisa Yates  10:53 That's why I can do all I'm doing now. Because my girls are gone. My next one is 29. My next one is 32. I think. And then the next one is turning 40. This year, and I have two adorable, well behaved, very intelligent grandchildren.   Michael Hingson  11:13 Is that Is there a husband on the scene as well? Yes. Just just checking one out. Have you had the talk with all the daughters saying, now that you're grown up? Of course, you need to recognize that your job is to support mom and dad in the manner they want to become accustomed to?   Lisa Yates  11:33 No, in that one. Yeah. No, in fact, it's more like they're having conversations with me about like, are you gonna have you know, be okay, if you have like a stroke one day or?   Michael Hingson  11:46 It's pretty negative.   Lisa Yates  11:47 No, they don't they don't say those words. But, you know, wanting to make sure that we have a good retirement plan. And we have a will and yeah, they're there. Yeah, it's   Michael Hingson  11:59 just tell them that they're welcome to contribute to the retirement plan. You know, you accept contributions.   Lisa Yates  12:05 I will I will make sure that I left. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  12:08 So let's talk about disabilities in in education and so on you I gather don't have what would be classified as a disability.   Lisa Yates  12:18 I do actually I have a permanent so my, you know, there's a lot of disability language out there are people do it differently diversely, abled, uniquely abled. I view it as human predicament. And I got that from Tom Shakespeare who's a disability scholar. Because he people predicaments are common to humankind, right. It's just that when it comes to body or mind predicaments, there's that stigma that's attached to them. So my particular body predicament is Fibromyalgia which is a chronic pain and fatigue kind of predicament. But it also presents with mind predicaments, because it causes foggy thinking, I have chronic insomnia, which causes me to have slow thought processes sometimes. Which is kind of ironic, because I love learning. And I get really frustrated when I don't get things really fast, like I think I should. But I just tell myself what I tell my students that speed doesn't mean smart. You know, it's okay to take time to process information. So   Michael Hingson  13:35 forgive me this is interesting way to put it. The problem with the English language, and I think with languages in general is that words tend to change in meanings and are morphed by people in a variety of ways. For example, diversity. Diversity doesn't generally include anyone who is classified as having a disability when we talk about Hollywood, and we talk about so many places, and we hear discussions about diversity. It's all about race, gender, the sex or sexual orientation and so on. And if disabilities are mentioned at all, it's kind of an afterthought. Yes, definitely an afterthought. And that's unfortunate and predicaments is interesting. I would submit and I've said it here before that there is not one single person on the earth who doesn't have a particular disability or what we'll call predicament. And I think that all of you have a predicament that blind people don't have, which is your light dependent. You don't do well when there's not light around. If we use the Americans with Disabilities Act as the model, Thomas Edison invented the electric light so that people with light dependency have a way to deal with the dark. Okay, that's fine. You've covered it up. You do pretty well with it, but don't negate the rest of us because of that. Yes. And yeah.   Lisa Yates  14:59 I was just saying I think the reason I like predicament is because when you talk about predicaments divorce is a predicament. Sure, actual troubles are a predicament, you know, we all have predicament so why? And I'll tell you why I think that body mind predicaments in particular are relegated to, you know, the worst possible predicaments is because of Plato, it goes back to Plato's Republic, where they base their whole culture, on the ability, the human reasoning ability, and physical ability, that people who had those higher levels, what they called higher levels of functioning, where leaders and all the slaves and peasants and people were considered less able, cognitively or physically, and, or physically. And I do think that that's a lot of it as far as the language, English is a living language, if it stopped evolving, it would be like Latin, and it would just die. So it's gonna keep evolving, but I think it's important for us, those of us who are in this field, and also in other diverse fields to keep evolving in a positive way. And not, you know, negative, like, dis abled, which implies not abled, or handicapped, or whatever. And I agree, I have a good friend who's blind. And we have an event at my college every year called Beyond the cover living books, which I created, in which students with disabilities share their lived experiences. And my friend, Cameron, who's he's been in two of those events. And he's been blind since he was one and a half, I think he was sitting near someone who was talking about their bipolar because all different disabling predicaments were presented, not all several. And he after when it was over, and we were talking about it, he said he was so surprised that people would be so open about their mental illness, as he called it, which I would call by mind predicament, right? And I said, Well, you have to understand, those of us who are sighted, we have been sad, we've been confused, we've been stressed. So we can imagine what it's like to be bipolar, or to be depressed or to be anxious or to have anxiety. But we are afraid of the dark, we walk through the world with our eyes being our number one sense. And so for us to imagine you walking through the world engaged and functioning and enjoying life without being able to use your eyes to see, it's very confusing to us, because first thing we do is turn on a light when we get in a room, like you said, to enable ourselves to be able to see. So   Michael Hingson  18:16 we should be grateful to blind people. Because when we have severe power outages, and blackouts, and so on, the fact that we don't turn on the lights tends to save everyone from themselves because we don't need those lights. So we help with the electricity. Seriously. The the issue, though, is that, I think you're absolutely right, we teach people to be afraid of something that's different than we are Yes. And that's exactly the problem. While we teach people to use their eyes, we don't teach them to use the rest of their senses very well. We don't teach them that you can go through the world without being able to see nowadays we have a lot more technology than we used to do, which should make it easier to accommodate persons who happen to be different than we are. But we still don't. In fact, we use technology to make it worse, for example, it is easy today, electronically, to make documents that are fully accessible for blind persons. Yet, in reality, we want to make them visually aesthetic and available. So we may take a document and take a picture of it and store it as a PDF graphic which makes it inaccessible rather than including the text of it. And the fact of the matter is there is no reason to do that. But we don't teach people that in reality, we need to be more inclusive and all we do and well. You're right disability means lack of ability. I suddenly it, it doesn't need to mean that disability can mean something different that isn't negative. Since we're good at warping words from time to time, we can change that meaning   Lisa Yates  20:11 we would have to change the meaning of the root word dis. And of course, that would be weird.   Michael Hingson  20:16 We'd have to do it. We would have to do it in that context, though,   Lisa Yates  20:20 right? It would it would be it's firmly entrenched in the language, though. Because this, I'm Nick, if you look it up in the dictionary means Sure.   Michael Hingson  20:31 So yeah, but but the if you look up, see in the dictionary, S E. People always talk about a being with the eye, but one of the definitions in the dictionary is to perceive, yeah, for sure you can you can separate it out. Or you can say disability as a word has a different meaning than we think it does without interrupting the cons, you know, we don't serve seem to have a problem with the word discourse, right? And so there are a lot of ways that we can change words,   Lisa Yates  21:02 I think discourse is used a lot less frequently than disabled. But,   Michael Hingson  21:06 but Well, I agree, but but it still has a different meaning for discourse as a word, then the negative context of dis. And so it's all about   Lisa Yates  21:17 Well, it's kind of similar, but Well,   Michael Hingson  21:21 yeah. But the point is that we can change meanings and we can change attitudes.   Lisa Yates  21:27 Yes. And my perspective is, and this is based on my research as a, you know, doctoral student, is that how can I say this? Person, sorry, what's the word predicament is a generic, unbiased term, that can be applied to all humanity. And when I use the word disabled, I use it in reference to how the environment disables a person, not the person's disability. And I do that because I believe that the cognitive, physical, mental, and mobile vision hearing conditions are significant and real, and are predicaments for sure. But it's the environment that further disables the person. And so that's how I use disabled or disability in terms of what we need to address in the environment to make it less. And again, my perspective is based on being in education, and supporting students, whereas yours is based on technology and your lived experience as a blind person. So we're going to come at it differently,   Michael Hingson  22:53 somewhat, but I think we end up at the same place. And environment also can very much dictate the severity or seriousness of a or challenge of a predicament to absolutely, absolutely. So with, with people who are classified as having a disability and so on, how do we improve success rate as they get to college? And how do we get more of them into college environments and give them more of the opportunities that they should have the right to have?   Lisa Yates  23:30 Yeah, so the state of California, I can only speak about state of California. Yeah, that's where I am, has, you know, mandated equal access to education. And so like in high school, special education counselors have to provide a transition plan for students with disabilities, including an offering them options to go to college. And so that's, that's one thing. And then once they get to college, and also in high school teachers provide modifications to assignments and accommodations, like extra time for testing and things like that. Once they come to college, then if they want to disclose and that's part of the problem, they have to disclose their their challenges their predicament. If they want to disclose that, then they can get accommodations in college like a note taker, to assist them with taking notes because my view is an again, I've worked with students with vision hearing, chronic pain, cancer, pregnancy, learning disabilities, ADHD, depression, anxiety, all schizophrenia, right? All of those and my view as a learning disability specialist, and I would say now I'm more of a learning specialist than I am a learning disability specialist. Is that all challenge? Does all physical body mining segments? Yeah, body mind predicaments in particular impacts students learning efficiency, so not their intellectual ability. And the problem is a lot of teachers think they hear the word disabled, and they think, intellectually disabled, which used to be called mentally retarded, or they think, irrational, erratic, that these, whatever the challenge is, it's going to mean that they can't keep up with the rest of the students, they're not going to succeed. And my, what I've learned is that it's about processing efficiency. So students, whether whatever their challenge is, the brain becomes distracted by whatever their symptoms are. And that interferes with either visual processing, or auditory processing, or both. And in the college environment, the reason the college environment is disabling is because teachers talk very, very fast, they don't use a lot of repetition, they will often, if they're referring to a PowerPoint presentation, say, over here on the right, when somebody may have a vision impairment in class, and not know what they're referring to over on the right, or show their slides very, very quickly, so that somebody who has whose sight is fine, but their visual processing speed is challenged, they don't have the chance to really take it in, right, where they speak very quickly. And in somebody with an auditory processing challenge, they're still thinking about what the teacher said a few minutes ago, and the teachers have moved on to this new topic. And so they're having trouble processing that auditory information. And so what we do is we provide digital recorders, so students can use those in the classroom. And then they can hear the lecture over and over again, no takers, like I said, we have speech to text software where students can have their, where they can speak their words like Dragon or something like that into the computer, or text to speech where they can have their books uploaded to a computer, and the computer can read to them. And those are all accommodations based on the 20th century model of disability support and education. My view is that we need to evolve it to a 21st century model, and stop being reactive, and be more proactive with students in order to increase their success outcomes.   Michael Hingson  27:45 And what do you mean by that?   Lisa Yates  27:47 I mean, collaborating with instructors, a lot of times, disability professionals tend to keep the knowledge that we have in house, in our department. And we just work with the students. And I think that more and more we need to be leaving our department and educating educators about about intellectual ability and how about this, how disabilities affect learning efficiency and not intelligence. And from what I've been studying, and my experience with intellectual IQ, intellectual quotient, IQ, the way we measure it is wrong. And I think that it's, we need to, like really be examining how we measure intellectual ability, because determining if somebody has a learning disability is based on their IQ, if we measure IQ, wrong, right? If we measure IQ wrong, then how can we determine if there's actually a learning disability? If we're basing it on an inaccurate measurement of IQ, that kind of thing? Well,   Michael Hingson  28:59 I, you know, it's interesting, I would add another dimension to some of that, which does go back to the student a little bit. One of the problems well, let me rephrase it, one of the the values of colleges that you're starting to learn to be prepared to live outside of the college and the school environment, much more than high school and elementary school and so on. And that's good. And that's the way it should be. I would say for blind students, and I'm talking about students who simply have a vision impairment, whether it's total or partial. There are some things that really need to not be done that a lot of offices tend to do, like provide notetakers and such. And the reason I say that is one you're right, we all need to work with the professors and the faculty. The students need to be encouraged to have those discussions with the faculty and then be able to you Use the office of students with disabilities as a backup, in case they can't get the support and the cooperation and the opportunity to teach that they should have with a professor. But the other side of it is, when you graduate college, you won't have access to people to take notes for you. And that's why I think it's extremely important. And I understand I'm only dealing it with it from the standpoint of vision impairments. But the problem with providing no takers is it's covering up something that students need to learn, which is to take responsibility and to take charge. And again, if the student can get cooperation from faculty, that's where the office and the rest of the administration come in, which is why your concept and your comment about educating and really moving us into the 21st century is so important.   Lisa Yates  30:56 So let me just address a couple of things there. Students come from K through 12, lacking advocacy skills, lacking self advocacy, most part, they've been in IEP meetings with teachers and parents, and the teachers and parents talk over them. So it's actually kind of the reverse of what you said, they need us in the beginning. And my job, my goal, and   Michael Hingson  31:23 let me just interrupt, I'm not saying that they don't need you. So   31:26 I'm not I'm not offended, I'm just addressing the timeline of what you said, I'm saying that what I tell parents when they first come for their intake is my goal is to have them get to a point where they don't need the parents, and they don't need me. But at first, they do need me. And especially until they develop the skills of self advocating, as far as the note taker is concerned. And usually, that's what happens. It's a bittersweet kind of thing. Because, you know, after a year or so I suddenly don't see them anymore. And then I see them at graduation. And I'm like, so excited, because I know that they stopped coming to me because they didn't need me anymore. But they develop those skills. Even when they use a note taker, they develop the skills by modeling their notes against no takers, they might use a note taker for the first year, and then not use note takers anymore. So I'm telling you, this is what often happens, they start off using accommodations, and they gradually wean themselves from them. As far as leaving education, unprepared for the world, the purpose of education, and I have this conversation with nursing faculty all the time, because they're like, if they can't do this quickly, they won't be able to do it in the real world. And my point is, no, they're supposed to learn how to do it here, right? Most likely, right? Most of the things that we are able to do on the job, we learn on the job, we don't learn at school, school prepares us with the tools, and then we get to work and we learn we build off of those. So yeah, I kind of disagree.   33:13 Well, no, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm agreeing with what you're saying. The college is the place to teach those things. And the college is the place because it won't happen earlier, where students learn to become advocates. And what I'm saying is, I think that's the most important thing that your office and similar offices can provide, and should provide, is making sure that students become self advocates. That's the most important thing that you can do it yeah, so So the kinds of things that I see and I hear today, from many students in college still is, oh, we have a test to do. The professor sends it over to the Office for Students with Disabilities. And I go there and I take the test and so on, that doesn't serve a useful purpose, the student, your office, and the professors, and I say your office because oftentimes professors are very stubborn because they haven't been educated by you yet. So the three have to work to get an environment that helps students to understand why they need to work with the professor, to be able to take that test and not have to use the Office for Students with Disabilities. And I see this often.   34:45 Let me explain why it does serve a purpose. So students within again, you're you might be coming from the perspective of somebody who's blind who doesn't need extra time for testing, although, in my experience, most of my blind student and use extra time for testing. The reason it serves a purpose is because there are so many different types of disabilities.   35:09 I agree with that. And I'm when I'm not arguing with the concept, I'm arguing, I am speaking specifically about blindness. I'm not arguing with the overall concept, because every one is different. And that's why in the very beginning, I said, I'm dealing specifically with a person who has a vision impairment and nothing else because anything else is going to change it.   35:31 So with, okay, if we're just going to talk about blind students, which is really hard for me, because I   Michael Hingson  35:37 started Oh, students, you and you're in your right,   Lisa Yates  35:40 but and I, I mean, I, yeah. If I'm just going to talk about blind students, there is still the fact the issue of distraction, the brain being distracted. So the reason the distraction reduced room and the extra time for testing helps, is because it's really hard for the brain to focus and pull in the information that the that the person has studied into the working memory part of the brain, and do well on the test when the ears are hearing people turning in their test. And the student is only on number 10, or something like that. And so the distraction reduced room allows students to focus and calm.   Michael Hingson  36:26 And that doesn't happen to take place for students with eyesight, who are on number 10, while other students are walking up and turning in their tests.   Lisa Yates  36:35 No. It's also I just used because we're talking about blind students.   Michael Hingson  36:39 Now I know. But my point is that, why is it different for blind people than it is for sighted people with that scenario,   Lisa Yates  36:46 I'm just because   Michael Hingson  36:49 because I do Cocytus people are going to be distracted when somebody walks up. And I'm not saying necessarily that the test will take place in the classroom. Because there are challenges with doing that. What I'm saying is that the student and the professor need to, collectively, eventually, they have to be the ones to take responsibility to collectively work out the best way for the student to take the test. And to make it fair, and that's what I'm getting at,   Lisa Yates  37:17 you didn't have to be ready to do that. And I'm telling you that most of our students, when they come in are not ready to have those sure patients with the instructor. And as far as the distraction part, absolutely. Lots of people are distracted, the brain is distracted, whether you're sighted or not sighted when you're taking a test. But for students who prefer a distraction, reduced room, and they feel that it helps them to do a better to perform better on a test. Because of that lack less distraction, we have to be able to provide that. And I think it's wrong to say we should just put them out there and tell them to go for it and do the best they can. Without that support. Using again, your scenarios coming in   Michael Hingson  38:05 using again, your scenario, however, then sighted people who are easily distracted, distracted, should have that same opportunity.   Lisa Yates  38:13 I agree.   Michael Hingson  38:15 So I'm fine as long as that's something that is done for everyone. But we don't do that. Now. So that means changing the whole system, which may be the way we have to go.   Lisa Yates  38:25 Hold on. So the thing about allowing all sighted people who do not have any kind of body mind predicament to use extra time for testing is that it doesn't it doesn't provide an even playing field for students who are distracted and by their symptoms.   Michael Hingson  38:45 And that's why I didn't say and that's why I didn't say extra time. I said distraction. Right? So there's a difference. So if you're a fully sighted person who gets distracted, then why shouldn't I be able to go into a room and be allowed only the same hour that anyone else would be but I'm not going to be distracted because I'm in a quiet room.   Lisa Yates  39:07 So here is the other thing that I think you don't understand. Accommodations are there for students to use or not use. If a student doesn't feel like they need extra time for testing. They don't use it. Sure. Student doesn't feel like they need and when you began, you didn't say time or distraction. You said going to the students with disabilities department to take their test. And for me, that is extra time and distraction reduced because they're they're coupled together. That's how it comes as an accommodation.   Michael Hingson  39:40 I think. Yeah.   Lisa Yates  39:43 All of the accommodations that we provide, it's totally up to the students if they want to. We have students who are deaf or hard of hearing, who we don't give extra time to testing for unless it's an audible test, because they don't need extra time for testing for a written test. If the student has a vision impairment. And during the intake intake process, they say, Oh, I don't need extra time for testing, we don't give it to him is totally up to the student if they use them or don't use them. And it's different for every student,   Michael Hingson  40:14 I think you will find, and again, I'm dealing with blindness, that blind people who grow up and go to college and graduate and go into the workforce. There are a significant number of those people who will say that the offices tried to force us to do some things that we didn't need, like extra time, I don't need extra time. They say, a lot of times they offer that, but sighted students don't get don't get that. So why should I simply because I'm blind, we don't force students to you know, I understand that, I understand that you're not forcing a student when   Lisa Yates  40:51 you that, I don't know where they had that experience, because that all of the accommodations are completely, completely up to the student to use or not use, Nobody forces, anything on any student. There are plenty of students who have disabilities who never sign up with our department, it's your choice. But if a student comes to our department and says, I want to use accommodations, then we say these are the accommodations you can use, whether it's Braille, if you're talking about somebody who's blind, or a magnet, portable magnifier, if you're talking about that, which again, I'm talking about all students with disabilities, but we don't make students use anything that's like, nobody, I can't even believe that anybody would say that they force me to use anything.   Michael Hingson  41:39 No, I didn't. Force and and I and I didn't say that. But you did. There is a there is a difference between expectations and, and offering things to people. That may not be although they'll they may or may not take advantage of it. But offering things continuing to say how you're different rather than helping people learn more to compete in the world that we're going to face. And I think that there's a lot that needs to be done in that regard. But let me ask you this. Where do you see the future of support from offices like yours and other offices going is because life and predicament concepts evolved?   Lisa Yates  42:30 Well, I think that because we some of the services we offer are mandated by the state. And you know, who knows how things are going to change with this conservative, you know, Supreme Court, I don't know what's going to happen as far as Special Education and Disability Support and education. But here's the thing, accommodations help. Like I've seen so many studies, conducted with students with disabilities who say things like, I don't know where I would have been, if not for the accommodations or from the support of the Disability Support Department, and coupled with disability friendly instructors who modify or are flexible, because I have, again, I'm not just talking about students who are blind. I have students who get hospitalized, I have students who have mental health flare ups, I have students who and teachers refuse to be flexible about deadlines, and there are so many things that I have students who are blind who need for one reason or another, more flexible deadlines to complete the information because of technology issues, or because of you know, whatever. So I think that as far as where we're going, the accommodations are mandated. And I think that yeah, we need to stretch outside of our department to work more closely with instructors. And I think that we have to attack the intersectionality of racism and disablism or ableism in college, because that's a huge area that is has been neglected, especially when you talk about diversity, income, and I've and disability is another huge area that needs to be addressed. ESL and disability is another huge area that needs to be addressed. We're just, you know, we're still under the mandate of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which, although there was an amendment in 2008, it's still pretty much a 20th century. And the I'm, I am motivated personally by the United Nations and the World Health Organization's imperatives to governments, communities and schools to improve the lives of individuals with disabilities. And I'm, for me, it's the school part because people But with disabilities not talking about blind people, I'm talking about disabled people, disabled by the environment, but also by a condition. Those who complete their degree, they're employed at similar rates to people who don't have a disability who have a degree. But people with disabilities who do not have a degree, they're unemployed at a double rate compared to people without disabilities who don't have a degree. So education matters. But it has to be equal. It has to be equitable, more than equal, it has to be equitable. And that's what accommodations do they help to increase the equity, but the teachers in the classroom have to extend that equity as far as their pedagogy and their practices and their policies especially?   Michael Hingson  45:52 Well, yeah, um, can I, I have no problem with the concept of accommodations. And I'm mostly on top of everything that we've discussed, pleased about the concept of doing more to educate professors. And I would say the college administration's as a whole, because they're colleges are a reflection of society for the most part. And it really is important to develop, and get implemented more of a program to educate people at the college level, on campus, about this whole issue of disabilities and inclusion. And that's something that   Lisa Yates  46:36 we need to do the whole problem with accommodations. So I'm just saying no, I   Michael Hingson  46:41 don't have a problem with accommodations, I have a problem with how they're often used. I'm all for and I think you've misread me because I have no problem with the concept of accommodations. But I do have a problem with what I've seen from talking with many students. And again, I deal mostly with blindness, who talk about how the accommodations are used. And I think that there is an issue that probably needs to be addressed. But we're not going to solve that today. But I'm mostly glad that we talk about education, and how we get to have more people understand the needs, that students with disabilities have, and why we have the accommodations, and that we need to educate people about the fact that just because some of us have a predicament different than they, it doesn't mean that we're mentally challenged unnecessarily, or less capable overall than they. And so I think that that's one of the most important things that we we need to figure out ways to do, which is to do more to, to deal with the education of of college, faculty and staff. And then not enough of that probably occurs across the country. Nope. So it's a it's a real challenge and something that we we do have to face. Well, what's your thesis about?   Lisa Yates  48:08 Well, I guess the title is very long. It's a dissertation. It's not a thesis. This is for Master's dissertation.   Michael Hingson  48:17 Well, what's your what's your dissertation about? What's your PhD research about?   Lisa Yates  48:22 So my research question is using interpretive phenomenological analysis to explore the impact of disability awareness event of a specific disability awareness event on the disability perceptions of college stakeholders. And my original question was only looking at the perceptions of non disabled college stakeholders. Because we have this event beyond the cover every year for disability awareness month where students share what their life their experience, their lived experiences, have been going to school and dealing with disability which the reason I started it was because I really want it faculty to understand because because of the disclosure issues, teachers can't ask students questions about their disability, or they believe they can't ask them unless the student brings it up. And so I thought, if we could have this event every year where students just openly shared, you know, with faculty and with other students, and with administrators and with staff, then it would increase awareness and understanding about disabilities. And so originally it was going to be non disabled college stakeholders, because because I really wanted to build off of this study and then do another study with my students with disabilities who have participated in the event, but I've just changed my mind because this whole time I've been working on my dissertation it's really bothered me that I didn't think lewd people with disabilities in the college stakeholders, I believe firmly in Nothing about us without us. But I was worried that if I included somebody with a disability, it would skew the study. And I've just decided to add that because I want to know the inside perspective, like I have some people who have attended the events who also have a disability. And I didn't include them, because my research question was non disabled college stakeholders. But I talked to my advisor today. And I said, I really want to change this. And she said, yeah, you can change it. So I'm excited about that. Basically, at each event, each beyond the cover event, participants who come to learn, so the students with disabilities are considered living books. And when we used to have it on campus, we always had it in the library. And I had these cute little library cards for each living book with, they would have to come up with we have a website where they have their their picture, they have to come up with a title of their book. And they have to write an abstract a couple of paragraphs or a paragraph about their experience. And so my blind friend, who was one of my first living books, his title was sometimes technology sucks, because in him talking to me about his lived experience, and I was writing as he talked, and I do that for a lot of the students because they're like, I don't know what to say. And I say, just tell me about yourself. And so then I Right. At one point, he talked about his math book in high school, and that it took up, it was a braille book, and it took five boxes. I don't know if it was high school, it might have been high school. So I got five boxes. And I said, Oh, my gosh, that must be so much better now with technology. And he said, Yeah, but sometimes technology sucks. Yeah, we decided to go with that title. Because sometimes technology sucks for all of us, right? That's not a blind thing, versus a sighted thing is just a thing. And so he titled his, sometimes technology sucks. And a lot of people wanted to come and talk to him, because they're like, yeah, it does, right. But then when they came to talk to him, we realized he realized how many people didn't understand his life, and that he, you know, watch his movies, and he, you know, has a life and he doesn't just sit in a dark room all day long. And the students with bipolar and schizophrenia and depression, you know, sharing what it's like for them to try to, you know, manage school, and family, and work and their disability. And so people would come and talk to them, and come away. And then at the end of each event, they complete the surveys. And I always ask them, Did you learn something new? And if so, what did you learn? What surprised you?   Lisa Yates  53:07 And I don't know the couple other questions, but those are the two questions that I'm using from their surveys for my study. So I'm going to meet with my participants, read what they wrote on their survey, and explore it and expand it to see, first of all what they meant by it, but also to see if in the time since they attended the event, if that learning or that perception has lasted, if they acted on it, if it changed them in any way, especially teachers if it changed how they teach, or how they approach students with disabilities. And then, yeah, my next study is going to be with the living books themselves, to talk about what it was like for them to share their experiences with strangers in a climate where up until recently, people didn't do that. So yeah, that's my study,   Michael Hingson  54:05 an interesting topic that you mentioned, which is you're developing theory of the ability spectrum. Tell me about that. That sounds kind of fascinating.   Lisa Yates  54:16 Um, I just did a presentation at Disability Conference in Baltimore on this topic, actually. And so like I said, as a learning disability specialist, I was trained to assess IQ, right. And then we use the intelligence or the ability quotient, that the organic kind of supposedly natural abilities, and we compare that to achievement in English, math, different things like that. And then we look for a discrepancy. And that's how we would determine if there's a learning disability. But over the years of doing it, I've met with so many students who I would read their intelligence quotient either that I conducted or somebody else conducted. And it would say that they were in the intellectual disability range, which used to be known as mental retardation. And I would be like, but you're not that person like, this doesn't match with what the paperwork says here. And so I started researching how intelligence tests came about how they're used, how they're whether or not they include people with disabilities when they construct them. And just there's a lot of problems with IQ tests, racial issues, they stem from they stem from I can't think of the word right now, you know, the eugenics eugenics was the father of intelligence test. And the whole purpose was to prove that the white male race might that white males were more intelligent than women more intelligent than people of color. And so I there's, they're flawed from the beginning. And they've definitely gotten better. They include more diverse populations now in their sample size, when they're, when they're norming them, but even the word norming? Yes, yes, that there's a standard that is based on something. And that thing that it's based on is usually that white male standard. And so I have, I just have problems with it. And so my idea, my research is that we can't just look at so intelligence tests look at verbal comprehension, perceptual reasoning, which is visual spatial processing speed, and working memory, those four things determine a person's IQ. And my premise is that there's so many other things that go into IQ, like mindset, like predicaments, you know, if you are being tested for your IQ on this day, and you're hungry, because you haven't eaten in a couple of days, or you're going through a divorce, or your parents are abusing you, like that affects how well you respond on an IQ test, right? If you the school district that you grew up in your K through 12, lacked resources, that's going to show up on your IQ tests, there are so many things. And so my view is that intelligence is not linear with this bell curve of normal in the middle, which is 85 to 115. Intelligence is spectral, and it spirals out like a pinwheel. And all of those spirals kind of overlap each other when we're talking about intelligence. And we can't just say, you know, you, you're at 81. So you're below normal, when they're all these other things that go into your intelligence.   Michael Hingson  58:04 Well, you mentioned though, you called it ability spectrum. And that's what was sounded really fascinating.   Lisa Yates  58:10 So yeah, the ability and intelligence are kind of used interchangeably doing an intelligence test, you're looking at organic abilities, but you're only looking at those four abilities processing speed working with you now. And so yeah, that's they're kind of interchangeable.   Michael Hingson  58:27 So it sounds interestingly, like we need to reevaluate the whole concept of what goes into an IQ test, as it were. Absolutely.   Lisa Yates  58:36 And they are, I mean, you know, they're every five years or so they re Vamp the IQ tests, and they try to, for what, for instance, one thing they were having problems with, like between, I'm gonna say the 80s and the 90s. With the I think it was the waist IQ test was they had a picture of an ashtray. And it used to be that everybody identified that has an ashtray. Everybody who was sighted, identified that as an ashtray. Well, as people stopped smoking, all the sudden people were like, scoring low on their perceptual reasoning because nobody knew what the picture was anymore. And a friend of mine who's doing learning disability assessments now. They've just recently moved to a new adaptation of the ways she's finding more and more African Americans are testing in the intellectually disabled category than ever before. Something they did in changing the new test is not working right. It's not accurate, because why do we all of a sudden have so many intellectually disabled African Americans, right, so and then there was one question on there that she told me about that. It was a nun onsens word. And for Latinx people, this nonsense word was a racial slur. But the people who made the test didn't know that. And so, you know, you're trying to test somebody and they're like, I'm not gonna say that word. You know?   Michael Hingson  1:00:17 Does this mean that one test shouldn't fit all anymore?   Lisa Yates  1:00:22 One test should never have fit all. Never, ever, ever.   Michael Hingson  1:00:27 Good for you? Yeah, and that's really the point, right? I mean, it's, there are so many factors that go into it. Yeah, I think I'll deal with and we still go ahead.   Lisa Yates  1:00:41 I was just gonna say I think that people will always try to find a way to make other people seem less. Yeah, that's it. And it's not just that we teach them. One of the authors that I cite in my dissertation is Zygmunt Bauman. And he wrote a series of books. He was a World War Two, his family escaped. I can't remember now, his family escaped Poland, I think, right at the beginning of World War Two. And he wrote about, gosh, I can't remember. Not collective unconsciousness. But he talked about people, we have this innate need to be better than other people. Because back in the day, you know, hundreds of years ago, yeah, 1000s of years ago, people looked up at the sky. And they were overwhelmed by their, the, the magnitude of it, and the weather and the stars and the vastness of the universe. And that, because of that they felt little. And so because they felt little, they need to make other people feel a little littler than they Yeah, I can't remember. It's not collective unconsciousness. It's I can't think of the word. But it's a good phrase. It's in my dissertation, but I haven't looked at my dissertation. months. So yeah, it's Well, eventually.   Michael Hingson  1:02:21 That's okay. Well, we've been doing this a while. And I will tell you, I have learned a lot. It's been very educational. And I hope it's been fun for you. Yeah, to, to do this. And, and we got to do it again, especially when you get your dissertation closer to being done. Or whenever you want to come back, we'd love to hear more about the study and how all that goes. If people want to reach out to you, and maybe learn more about you or talk with you or whatever, how can they do that?   Lisa Yates  1:02:50 Well, I just want to say to that, it was really interesting for me as well, I think I rarely talk to people outside of academia, about disabilities and accommodations and how we support students with disabilities. And so it is really interesting to me to hear your view of accommodations, even though of course, it's coming from the perspective of blind students, but it's, it's, it's gonna give me something to think about.   Michael Hingson  1:03:18 But I also do understand what you're talking about in terms of, there's a lot more than blindness in terms of what you have to deal with, concerning accommodations. And that's fine.   Lisa Yates  1:03:28 I mean, honestly, blind students are a small percentage of students. Mental health is the fastest growing, it was the fastest growing disability category before the pandemic, and now it's the fastest growing in the country. So when   Michael Hingson  1:03:43 if we were going to turn really obnoxious and we'd say much less, what about politicians? How can we ever do anything with them? But that's another story. Yeah,   Lisa Yates  1:03:50 no, I'm not gonna go.   Michael Hingson  1:03:53 What kind of a test can we get for them? But anyway?   Lisa Yates  1:03:57 No, don't don't? Don't have me go there. No, no, it really, um, it's important to hear other people's perspectives. And I just wanted you to understand what we do in terms of supporting and then it is important for students who need it, students who want it to get it at the beginning, because if they don't, they end up a year after coming to us and their grade point average has gone down and they're like, I need help. And it's like, you should have come you know, at the beginning. So, but yeah, I'm, uh, I'm on LinkedIn, Lisa Yates on LinkedIn. I think I have a thing but I don't know what my, My callsign is on LinkedIn. I have an Instagram that I never look at, because I'm just always working, working working. But you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm also on Facebook for sure. And I check that a little more often, but not as much as I used to I'm I work at Mount San Jacinto College, you can look me up there. And, yeah, I'm just really motivated in wanting to do my part to improve the lives of individuals with disabilities. And I do not say that to mean that everybody who has a disability needs their life improved, I do not think that at all. But for those who want to, and those who need to, through education, my goal is to do whatever I can do to help that.   Michael Hingson  1:05:34 I will, I will tell you that anytime anyone wants to be involved in help educate and help improve, and help raise awareness. That totally works for me. So I really appreciate what you're doing. And I'm glad you're going to continue to do that. We're, we're excited. And I'm very serious. I'd love to learn more as your study progresses, and so on. And if there's ever a way that we can help you know how to reach me, and I'd love to definitely stay in touch and have you back on when you have one to talk about regarding your dissertation and the study and so on.   Lisa Yates  1:06:14 Yeah, I'm, I'm game for that, for sure. I'm excited to see what happens after my study, like, I'm sure that there will be people who will be like, yeah, I forgot everything, you know, the next day after the event. And, you know, that's what science is about. It's getting all perspectives, but I just really believe in this, like, before, people started being more expressive about disabilities. We were doing this and we were saying, we need to be talking about this, we need to not just be hiding it behind closed doors. And I think, you know, if you know somebody who has a challenge, it reduces your, your prejudice and your bias. And you see that people are just people with predicaments. You know, that's what we are,   1:07:10 which is a good way to end it. And I really appreciate you doing that. Well, thank you very much for being here. And I hope everyone has enjoyed this conversation today. It has been a lot of fun. And I hope that you will reach out to Lisa and also reach out to us. And if you have any comments, love to hear them. You can reach me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com or go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast or wherever you're listening to this podcast, please give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. Your ratings are invaluable to us and what we do. So we hope that you'll be back with us again next week. And Lisa, once more. Thank you very much for being with us today.   Lisa Yates  1:07:56 Thank you, I appreciate it.   Michael Hingson  1:08:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Marvel Studios Hawkeye Episode 4 Review! "Partners, am I Right?" Hawkeye is the best! Holy cow! In this episode we are talking everything Marvel Studios Hawkeye Episode 4! We talk about black widow, we talk about theories and our favorite and least favorite parts of the show! Have you ever wanted to write a book? So have we! Join my brother and I as we co-author a book together. We will let you into the entire creative process from characters, to plot points, to cliffhangers, everything from having the initial idea to publishing a book. Welcome to Writing Quest! Read the book in real time while we write it on Wattpad! http://w.tt/3qefYHF​ SPOILER WARNING: We lay everything on the table. Complete transparency. If we plan on Character A betraying Character B you'll know! =======Links======= Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/writing.quest/​Twitter: https://twitter.com/WritingQuest/​Wattpad: http://w.tt/3qefYHFThe Writing Quest Journal: https://amzn.to/3eUepLB --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/writing-quest/support

Hello and welcome to the Faith First Podcast. Today we are taking a bit of a flashback to Valentine's Day. I mean, every day ought to be filled with the love of Christ– am I Right? Of course, I am. In this episode, our Lead Pastor Steve Darr presents a message entitled Revealed, let's tune in.In this episode you'll discover:God reveals patterns in His word that help us connect to HimWhy the transfiguration of Christ is important to understandWhat transfiguration means to the Christian and their beliefsHow this event shows the divine nature of Jesus ChristHow we are to be transformed to love our neighborIt is revealed in the word of God and through Jesus Christ that we, the Body of Christ, the Church have been given the opportunity to show love to one another and to the world. It is sad to say we have not done a very good job at doing so. We have not been united, we have fought more than we have loved. It is time to put this aside and reveal the true love of God to the world.We've found out from the message that Love your neighbor as yourself shows up in Scripture 8 times, but how many times does it show up in your daily life? Today, reveal the love God has shown you to a friend faith first.

What comes up for you when you hear the word no?   Positive or negative emotion? Does it feel like rejection?   If so, why? What do you really think the other person is rejecting?   You? The products? The potential income? Show Notes: https://www.streetsmartwealth.com/blog/hear-less-nos-network-marketing     See if this isn't true for you - hearing no bothers you because it makes you question you; your decision; your involvement; your interest and ultimately your potential for success.   Am I right, or am I RIGHT?   The best way to get fewer nos is by simply making a few shifts.   First, qualify people for your time. Get very calm, cool and intentional in the way you introduce the business. Use qualifying statements and questions.   How's life been treating you lately?   Anything new? Exciting vacations?   Anything you are looking forward to?   I've come across something that has me excited and looking forward to some new changes. Do you consider yourself open to exploring an adventure?   Be ready for questions and even more important, be ready for the answers.   What is it?   Here is where you want to have created your Impact Introduction.   We work on this every month in my Facebook Group and the Killer Content Challenge. Next one starts on the 1st of the month.   http://KillerContentFormula.com   I help people who…..   Would you be open to learning more?   Now, here is the trick. When they say yes, DON'T jump right into a verbal explanation of your business.   Ask: What is it that has you open to exploring this?   Learn to infuse your conversation with phrases like:   I'm not sure that this would be right for you, or that you would qualify…   You may not be a fit for this…   Leave open the idea that you are not desperate.   Network Marketing is not for everyone. By any means. People who are super caught up in impressing other people and worried about their opinions have a hard time succeeding. That doesn't mean they can't or won't. It's just tougher to get them started.   The hardest part of this business is between your ears. That's right. It's what goes on in your brain about your business. It's the self talk and the fears, doubts and made up stuff that YOU and I both put into the mix.   If you'd like to reset your MLM blueprint and release mind drama and negativity that's slowing you down and stopping you, join me in the Street Smart Wealth Academy.   We break it all down in the 4 critical pillars you need to learn and develop the business skillsets to succeed.   Mindset, Messaging, Marketing and the management of time and productivity.   We take this and put it all into a business and marketing action plan to bring the success you desire right to your door step.   Let's work together to create a radical shift for you, and the way you think and act in your business. And, it's guaranteed. Do the work, get the results, or get your money back. What could be better than that? Learn more at http://StreetSmartWealthAcademy.com    

R.T.I (Right to Information) जानकारी के अधिकार में जानकारी कैसे मांगी जाती है| Explained by Adv. Arun Deshmukh please watch the full video and for more legal advice follow our social media. FACEBOOK https://www.facebook.com/lionarundesh... INSTAGRAM www.instagram.com/5advarundeshmukh THANK YOU!

R.T.I (Right to Information) माहितीच्या अधिकारामध्ये माहिती कशी मागवायची ? Explained by Adv. Arun Deshmukh please watch the full video and for more legal advice follow our social media. FACEBOOK https://www.facebook.com/lionarundesh... INSTAGRAM www.instagram.com/5advarundeshmukh THANK YOU!

Funny, very funny man. The Governor of New York Friggin City said he doesn't trust the medical experts! Is he wrong or right? Cuomo also decided to drive into NYC during a major snow storm while he told every New Yorker LOUD AND CLEAR TO STAY HOME OR GET WHERE YOUR GOING BEFORE NOON. As if 2nd Shift starts at Noon. What a Jackass, am I Right. Find out more in this Off The Cuff Episode of Hotboxtalk!

Zach has the honor of having a conversation with Dr. Erin L. Thomas, Head of Diversity, Inclusion & Belonging at Upwork, about organizational equity during the COVID-19 pandemic. She graciously shares some advice regarding what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees and talks a bit about how her perspective and focuses at work have shifted as this pandemic has continued. Check the links in the show notes to connect with Dr. Thomas!Link up with Dr. Thomas on Twitter! She's also on LinkedIn. Links in order:https://bit.ly/3c0BXKhhttps://bit.ly/3c7qhFELearn more about Upwork on their website. You can view their open positions by clicking here. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2TEC8Vnhttps://bit.ly/2A5X00WFind out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach, and you know what? I'ma just go ahead and say it right now. It's also Emory. Emory, say something. [Emory breathes] That's just her breathing. Emory is, at the time of this recording, six weeks old. So we're here because I'm on daddy duty and my wife has to get some sleep. That's right. Husbands, help your wives, or partners rather, excuse me - not to be overly gendered on a podcast all focused on inclusion, equity and diversity. Help your partners, you know what I'm saying? Everybody, you know, they--one person can't do it all. Sometimes you gotta step in, and this podcast is great, and I love y'all, but of course I love my daughter the most. Well, I love my wife also. Let me not do any type of weird hierarchy right now live, like, a live-streaming conscience of thought on the podcast, but the point is you have responsibilities. There are things that take precedent. And look, we're in a new normal, so I'm just here. Where was I? Right, Living Corporate. So look, Living Corporate amplifies and centers black and brown voices at work. Why do I say black and brown and not, like, people of color? Because I want to be very explicit, we want to be very explicit, with what our mission is. So we aim to center and amplify black and brown identities, marginalized folks, folks on the periphery, in the workplace, and we do that how? We do that by having real talk in a corporate world. Now how do we do that? We do that by interviewing incredible leaders cut from all type of cloth. And, you know, we've had executives. We've had professors, entrepreneurs, public servants, activists, civil leaders, elected officials. We've had all types of people, artists, and today is no different. Today we have Dr. Erin L. Thomas. Dr. Thomas is the head of diversity, inclusion and belonging at Upwork where she leads diversity, inclusion and belonging, or DIBs. She leads the strategy implementation and coaching for all of Upwork. Prior to Upwork though, Dr. Thomas was a managing director at Paradigm, a diversity and inclusion strategy firm where she partnered with companies to embed DIBs into organizations through culture transformation and people development. Prior to Paradigm, Erin held positions at Grant Thornton LLP, Argonne National Laboratory developing D&I strategies, programming and metrics. Her work has been featured in Fast Company and the New York Times and recognized by Forbes, Human Rights Campaign, the National Association for Female Executives and the Equal Opportunity Magazine. She holds a PhD in social psychology, a Master of Philosophy in social psychology; a Master of Science in social psychology; and a Bachelor of Arts in psychology and international studies from Yale University. She is accredited, y'all. Okay? Don't question us, okay? We're coming to y'all. We bring y'all heat rock every single week, and the heat rock we bring is because we have guests that have heat rock. I'ma say heat rock again just so y'all get the point. Yes, I'm turnt up. Yes, it's a Tuesday. Who cares? Erin, what's up? Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Erin: I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Hi, little baby Emory. I am so excited to be here, and I want to give you a number. So I'm really into, during COVID times, anchoring, you know, "How are you doing?" on a scale. 1 is, you know, "We've got to get out of here and get some more support." Like, "We're not doing well." 10 is, you know, "COVID what? COVID who?" But I think, like, if you're a 10, you also probably need some external support. Zach: Facts. [laughs]Erin: And I think today I am... I'm, like, a 7, 8. I'm very excited to be chatting with you. What's your number?Zach: That's a really good question. You know, I don't know. So it's interesting because your scale, I don't know how it accounts for, like, other things, right? So, like, I'm also here with, like, a six-week-old baby. So maybe I'm, like, a--so, like, coronavirus is not, like, at the top of my mind because I'm trying to focus on keeping this thing that looks like me alive. Maybe I'm, like, a--I'd probably say I'm, like, a 7, 8. Like, I'm pretty good. I'm happy, right? Like, I mean, life is good. The new Drake album--well, not the album, but a little collection of loosies came out recently that was very good, that I enjoyed. You know, my favorite shows are still coming on. I've caught up on some anime. So I'm keeping myself well-distracted.Erin: [laughs] That's good. I think distracted is good. I think--I don't know, I think in the beginning days of all of this it felt, for me at least, a little weird to compartmentalize, or I felt a little guilty, but I actually think that's incredibly healthy, you know, to find moments of just pleasure and delight. That's all we got, right? That's all we got.Zach: I mean, this--the reality is that before this pandemic, like, I was already a homebody. Now, people at work--like, people who know me from work would--they may not know that, because, like, in person, like, I'm a fairly gregarious guy. But, like, you know, people are complex, right? I think, like, we create a lot of these terms and things that aren't really academic or scientific just to kind of better compartmentalize people, like, "You're an extrovert, you're an introvert." It's like, "I mean, I enjoy people, but I also enjoy being alone." Like, I enjoy being at home, being with my wife and now my kid. Like, I'm fine with that. But I'm glad, I'm glad that you're excited. I'm excited and in a good place as well. You know, this would be interesting to do again, like, if our numbers were wildly different, right? So, like, you're a 7, 8, I'm a 7, 8, but if I was, like, a 2, then, like, I wonder how the dynamics of this discussion would look, especially considering what we're talking about.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, I think then--and this has happened to me at work, right? Like, I come in low and someone else is high or vice versa. I think then that's the--I mean, that's the point of it, right? It's a moment of pause to figure out what do you need to put aside or do you need to get off this call or how can I support you and give that person who's lower an opportunity to either just share or not or articulate more. I just think it's a great window into "How can we work together towards whatever it is that we need to achieve?" And if now's not the time, fair. You know? We gotta go and come back together when we're both in the right space. I think that happens all the time, we just don't often put numbers to it, right?Zach: I agree, I agree. So look, that actually is a really good segue for us to get into this. Like, this pandemic, it continues to expose and exacerbate all types of inequities, from social to governmental and of course workplace, just all across the board, and I'll tell you, frankly it just feels overwhelming for me to think about holistically, let alone try to address, and so I'm really curious about just, like, considering your role with Upwork, I'd love to hear how your perspective and focuses have shifted as this pandemic has continued, and considering your level within Upwork and, like, the organizational power that you wield by way of your level, I'd love to hear about how power and influence has shaped your praxis.Dr. Thomas: Yeah. Whoo, this could take the whole hour, which, you know, happy, happy to unpack it for that long, 'cause it's deep. It's deep and very real. Like, the quickest answer for me is not that much has actually changed about the objectives that we set out to achieve for this year. How we go about them certainly has had to stay agile and nimble, but in the work that I do that's always the case. I always like to be super responsive to context and not get so [prescriptive?] about how we execute but to kind of keep our eyes on the prize, and so from my personal vantage point, I--especially during the beginning days of this--have never felt more critical than I do right now. You know, I think there's so many external conversations and great thought leaders who have articulated this better, what this crisis has really done, like most crises, is magnify fractures, gaps, inequities, that already existed, and so I've used this really as an opening to accelerate my platform and the work that I'm doing for marginalized folks at our company. So just to dig into it, you know, I did a couple of tactical things once it became clear to me that, you know, "This is serious. This is not the flu. This is gonna change everyone's lives forever," and I don't think that's an overstatement. So once that reality sort of set in, the first thing I did was I revisited these operating principles that I had crafted when I started at Upwork. So I joined the company in December of 2019. I'm only about weeks in, and there's been a lot of change since then, internally and obviously externally, but as a team of one and as the first DIB leader in our organization, I thought it was really important for me to just get anchored on what [?] and, you know, use that decision framework for really [advertising?] how I [fell?] in my role. I think, especially when a role like this is new or especially when someone comes in with a multi-disciplinary background [or] a very strategic lens, folks don't necessarily know what the role is and they kind of fill in their own blanks and make their own stories. So that was important to me, and I revisited those once we started quarantining just to make sure that they were evergreen and [stood up?] in this crisis, and they did, thankfully, and I can put [?] on my name. There's only four, and everything we do is, you know, it's systemic, so #1 is account for the systems and structures we're operating in, and that's, you know, systems and structures within our company and certainly externally as well. So that's #1, definitely holds true today. #2 is everything we do is tailored to the most specific population or the most specific point in the employee experience as possible, and so it kind of goes back to how you introduce the podcast, which is it's basically about centering. We have to get specific. We have to get articulate and discrete about what problem we're trying to solve or what opportunity we're trying to seize, and certainly during public times that's been really critical, and I think that principle holds up. The third is active. So I really wanted to mark that for myself and for others. You know, there's no passive way to do this work. Like, we're gonna have to change some things, and, you know, I think that's intuitive, but also [?] to declare. And then the fourth thing which is super critical for me, and this is where I see a lot of DIBs or DEI, whatever acronym you want to use, professionals flounder a little bit, is being pragmatic and being compelling and cohesive and telling, you know, one story that folks can get behind that also makes sense in the context of the day-to-day decisions and work that they're doing, and I think too often DIBs work kind of exists in a bit of a vacuum, right? It's a little bit of a tag-along or an extra-curricular, and I think that's the piece, you know, during corona times, that I've had to really get critical, even more so with myself, about "[?]," right? Like, do people have the capacity for this new thing or this new structure or this new effort and just really kind of giving grace to the folks who have to carry forward on the strategies, who have to, you know, change their behaviors, because it's a lot to ask even in the best of times, and I want to push and, again, lean into this comfort, but also be gracious with the fact that folks are dealing with a lot right now. So that's one of the things I did, was just, like, double-check on the way that we're going about this work. So relevant during this time. Another thing was just re-prioritizing some of those actual objectives. There were just, like, a couple that, even before corona, were nicer to have, but now it's clear that this is not the year to be working on the frills. It's really--we gotta stick to the essentials in terms of our strategic goals. And then the last thing I'll quickly say is I actually really leveraged the fact that it seems like most folks are becoming kind of armchair experts in academiology these days, right? Like, I'm learning more, more about viruses and how they spread, and I think there's some really interesting--and if I thought about it hard enough there could be a poem out of this, but, you know, I think there's some really interesting overlays between what we're seeing with the virus [Emory makes some noise] and how I think about people and the fact that--hey, Emory! The fact that we are all connected, we're all inter-dependent, and we need to center the most vulnerable. I think, as a society, that's becoming more and more clear, just with the true facts that are coming out from COVID, but it also I think has been what activists and DIBs practitioners have been saying for, you know, decades, and so I think, at least in my company, it sort of seems like there's this window of opportunity to seize on this understanding of centering and equity and disproportionate impact that folks are getting externally and [?] that same framework and understanding through the work that I do internally. I just think folks are grasping it a little bit more easily now than they might have been before this. So that, for me, has been exciting.Zach: That's awesome. And yes, hello, Emory. But no, you're absolutely right. [laughs] You know, what I find curious about this time, or intriguing even, is that because of the real impacts that this pandemic is having with folks that look like us and that don't look like us and the frustrations that come along with that, it's creating avenues for people to have even more frank conversations and to really kind of, like, get past some of the jargon and, like, these super long monologues about whatever and really get into, "No, how can we actually create impact and change and help? Because there are people who actively need help," and I think that's--and I try to be, like, a silver lining type of person, so, like, that's--so I would say that is something that is a positive out of all of this. I do think also, to your point around DEI practitioners, I do think that there's a bit of a gap when it comes to, "Okay, how do we transition from--" And I've talked about this with some other folks in the past. I think we're now doing a decent job of, like, talking about the historicity of oppression, or we'll talk about systemic inequities in, like, these very, like, high level systems that almost seem--like, we speak about them almost, like, in the abstract, right? So we'll say, like, "Well, you know, black men, they have disproportionate--they're targeted by police and da-da-da," and it's like, "Okay, that's true," and I'm not being dismissive of that. "Let's talk a little bit more about the systemic inequities in your workplace though," right? Like, "How can we transition these conversations to be a bit more practical and targeted to the reality of your employees?" And, like, that's--and I get why, you know, there's a variety of reasons why we don't necessarily have those conversations when I don't think we necessarily know how, but then two, like, it's increasingly uncomfortable to have conversations about actual power in your workplace, because then we start looking at individuals, right?Dr. Thomas: Yeah. I mean, it's hard, or maybe impossible, not to take, you know, a conversation about power and privilege personally, but at the same time I think where I've seen the most effective work, where I've done the most effective work, is where we actually sort of meet somewhere in the middle. It's about what roles or positions do we hold, how are those products of a greater societal system, and given the seat we're in--it's not really about us. I think it's really about the position. But given that we fill it, you know, what is our responsibility? To disrupt things that before now we weren't aware, you know, we were products of, or now that we are we realize we have a bit of an urgency to leave a legacy or leave things better than where we found them, and I think that's where the activation can happen. That's where we can get [?] without guilting people, right? Without making them defensive. I think it's just the reality of, "Oh, this is all by design, and we're sort of products of this greater architecture. So now what are we gonna do about it?" And if we're not gonna do anything, that's fine too, but then we should stop talking about it. Right? So, like, that's fine. I don't--[laughs] I want to be clear that I don't judge or begrudge that. It's fine. You know, companies and leaders can make those choices, but then stop talking about it. That's where--right?Zach: Yes. That's my rub too. At a certain point it's like, "Look, I'm tired of us talking about diversity being our strength and there not being anybody that looks like me that actually has any type of authority or power." You know, "I'm tired of us always--" Like, not shoehorning in, because no disrespect. We talk about gender in these very, like, binary, exclusionary ways without being intersectional at all with race or sexual identity. We talk about sexual identity in these binary ways without including race. We ignore any race trans identities, particularly trans black female identities. So, like, if we're gonna do this, let's do it. If we're not gonna do it, let's not. It's 2020. Rona or no rona, let's just--let's just be honest. [both laugh]Dr. Thomas: I agree. I mean, you know, that's where folks get disillusioned. That's where, you know, when the word doesn't match the deed, it reads as inauthentic because it frankly is, and I think most companies or leaders within them would be honestly better served to talk a little less about diversity, about inclusion, about equity, [then keep on?], or to raise--you know, raise the bar for themselves, but this weird in-between is just not working, right? It's not working. It's frustrating the folks who are most impacted. And then we see the results, which is very minimal quantitative gains when it comes to actual representation within the workforce. So these things all [?] together. They all relate, so yeah.Zach: They do. Now this is me going off the chart, but it just popped in my--not popped in my head, 'cause I think about it a lot, but we didn't talk about it for this interview. We gotta have you back, Erin, 'cause I really want to talk about in group, out group dynamics and the pressures that marginalized people in positions of authority have to, like, toe the line in that regard or how much they push against to then create inclusive workplaces for people who look like them. 'Cause, like--no, and I recognize that's a big topic, but, like, I just want to say this 'cause it's on the top of my heart and my mind. Like, I've noticed--and I've had these conversations, like, with black folks, like, off the record, right? So, like, in consulting, you know, there's all these different tracks of leadership, and, you know, the highest up is typically managing director or partner, and I've talked to some black partners who I really respect and everything, and I'm like, "Look, how many of you do you meet?" 'Cause the people that I talk to, like, they're with it. Like, they're conscious. They genuinely care. They try to use their access, power and privilege, relative power and privilege, to help other folks that look like them--and I'm talking, like, two people, right? [both laugh] And I asked them like, "Yo, what's going on? Like, why are the rest of y'all a bunch of Clarence Thomases up here? Like, what is this?" And so we had this whole frank discussion about it, but I really want to have you back on, because, like--I don't know. I feel like you and I could have that conversation, but I want to have it because, like--and I had this very... it was not uncomfortable. Wait, let's pause. Everybody stop, everybody. Y'all should know by now. This is, like--we're a couple hundred episodes in, hundreds of episodes in actually of Living Corporate. Y'all know I enjoy awkward conversations, so this exchange I'm about to explain to y'all was not awkward for me. It was awkward for them, okay? It was not awkward for me. So, you know, I had this conversation, and--[Emory makes noise] Oh, goodness, my daughter is loud. Hey, y'all. Y'all, check it out. Y'all hear these vocals by Emory. Don't play. No labels, but, you know, we'll make a SoundCloud soon. So anyway, I was talking to this person and I was like, "Look, the reality is the folks in power only let a certain amount of us in these spaces, okay, and when you see us in these spaces high up, like, to find somebody that looks like us in those spaces who genuinely care, who are not closing doors behind and who are speaking truth to power--" Again, I'm not asking you to come show up in a Kunta Kinte shirt. I'm just saying if you could just--[Dr. Thomas laughs] Okay? If you could just, you know, act like you're black, act like you recognize, you know, experiences. To find those types of people, it's like finding a unicorn with gold teeth, you know what I mean? It's crazy. Dr. Thomas: Yeah, and it's hard for me to speak to personally simply because my role is diversity, right? [both laugh] I'm not here as a [?] professional, I am a diversity expert and researcher. So that's, I guess, a privilege if you will that I hold as a leader in my company, and I recognize that. It was true in my last role too. I was in a consulting firm, and I was on the leadership team, but we were a diversity consulting firm, right? And so even in there you see some of that where, yeah, I had to really reconcile with the fact that I was doing this work and certainly had more latitude to, you know, speak that truth to power than I would if I were in another profession, and at the same time even I find myself vigilant, of course, and protective, of course, of how much is too much, you know? Where do I strike that balance of advocating in ways that people can hear versus that active, you know, operating principle that I called out earlier, you know, [?] folks that healthy discomfort. It's tough. It's a whole level of calculus that I have become I think decent at. I think also though I always--and, you know, we should talk about this another time because we can go real deep into this, right? I always view this dance of, like, on the one hand, any professional--especially any leader--is context switching and code switching all the time, right? Like, that is effective leadership, right? That's effective, but yet when you're a person of color, when you are black--which I can speak to--when you're brown, I think it creates some compunction of, like, "How much of this is playing the game that anyone would play and how much of this is selling out?" And I don't have an answer. I think everyone has their own barometer for that, but it's something I challenge myself on all the time. Like, "What of this feels like me and what of this feels like I'm becoming complicit in something that I don't subscribe to?" And, you know, sometimes I can't really codify when I'm feeling uncomfortable, but I know what I'm feeling, and that's when I have to really check myself and really examine if how I'm showing up or what I'm sharing or advocating is really serving my key audience, which is our marginalized folks at our company.Zach: Yo, so thank you for real. Sound Man, put a little round of applause in here for Erin answering this question off the fly, 'cause we did a pre-production. This was not part of the questions, but it was just something on top of my mind. Thank you so much. Now, look, let's get into this though, because we're just now really at the top of the conversation we planned on having. So look, at the time of us recording this, over 32 million folks have applied for unemployment benefits. At the same time, many companies are trying to retain their employees and keep them engaged in new working environments. I mean, there's even a lot of unofficial conversations happening on companies having pressure to not let go of too many minority employees in the name of just optics and potential legal ramifications. I'm curious, can we talk about this dynamic [?] where tensions may be, particularly for black and brown employees.Dr. Thomas: Sure. I mean, when I hear this question I'm really thinking about it as what are black and brown workers maybe thinking, feeling, [?] with individually if they are still employed, and I think I've seen both--at Upwork it's certainly [?] as well, 'cause obviously I consume research, I consume, you know, thought leadership externally, and I think there's a picture that's sort of forming for me in my head, which is there's a range I think of emotional reactions for folks who are still employed, and I think at its best folks are feeling really grateful of course. Right? It's sort of--going back to operating on a scale of 1 to 10, it's, like, yeah, a very compartmentalized 1 to 10, but, like, we're grateful for the blessings we have, and I think certainly that is true for folks who are in jobs with fair pay and fair benefits. They want to give their all to their employers because their circumstances could be so much worse. And I think especially in, you know, people work, in mission-driven organizations and purposeful organizations, that's incredibly true, you know? I'm seeing more and more come out, for instance, among mental health professionals who are burning out 'cause they're just giving it all. And I think, you know, in normal times it's hard to strike that balance of taking care of others versus yourself, and I think especially now, if folks are lucky to still have some semblance of job security, they're giving a lot, and they're very grateful. I think, towards the more extreme ends of this spectrum of reactions, I'm also seeing certainly some guilt, some comparative guilt, you know, around--there are folks out there who are on the front lines, who are essential workers, who have lost their jobs, and so "Maybe I'm not feeling great about what I'm doing or where I am, but, like, how could I complain?" Right? Like, "How can I explain when--maybe things aren't ideal, but I have so much," and so that's where I start to get--yeah, I get a little nervous about that, but I understand it, right? Like, you won't want to rock the boat right now when employment is so precarious. I think there is, you know, on this extreme end of the spectrum, a bit of grief happening, just--obviously black and brown folks are more likely to have people around them succumbing to this virus, falling ill, being unemployed themselves, and so, you know, folks are at work but breathing different losses that some of their counterparts may not be breathing as directly. And then there's backdrop of fear. Like, even if you feel secure in your job for now, this whole situation is obviously unprecedented. We don't know what will happen to the economy, we don't know what will happen to our companies. And again, the research shows that black and brown folks, and women, are the first to get furloughed, to get laid off, to your point, and we know in secure times black and brown folks are more heavily scrutinized, and I think folks who are still working feel a microscope that may or may not be on them, but it's impossible not to be vigilant about if you're gonna make it out of here with the job you went into this crisis with and if that job is actually the right job for you or if you're feeling beholden to, you know, a vulnerable time in your life. I think it's a very confusing time, but it all goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that it's just magnifying some of the sentiments that folks are always feeling. I think there's an overlay of, like, true uncertainty that is pressing, but I think folks are really trying to just get through the day, trying to keep the jobs they have, and, you know, trying not to encounter some of the secondary traumas that come when you lose that job, that security that you have in place. So I'm seeing a whole swirl of things, and the way they look to me basically is people are tired. They are exhausted. They are burning out and, you know, I think they're taking care of themselves a little less than they used to because it feels a little risky to do that.Zach: You segued really well into my next question about, like, black and brown employees and their experience, and it's funny because I was talking to a colleague about this, talking to a workplace colleague about, like, my own experiences, and I was telling him about, like, you know, "I've had some stresses because I've had some friends who almost fell victim to COVID-19," and, you know, they recovered, you know, but I also have acquaintances whose family members have passed, right? So you're right, like, what's on my mind and the stresses and the drama is--just what's on my mind is different throughout the day, or maybe it's just a little more real. Let me not say that other folks--'cause there have been white folks dying from the coronavirus too. So it's like, you know, not about trying to dismiss one to uplift the other. It's just like, "Okay, this is real for you, and it's even more real for me." And so I'm curious, like, you know, can we talk a little bit about what organizations can do during this time to at the very least reduce harm for their black and brown employees?Dr. Thomas: For sure. I think, you know, first I want to say 1. thank goodness for your friends who have recovered, and 2. I'm very sorry for the losses that are close to you, and to your point, I'm sorry for that for everybody. This is--you know, the backdrop to all of this is just... it's really hard to fathom honestly. It's hard for me to, like, wrap my head around the devastation this has caused, and it's just--it's so painful, and I'm sorry that everyone is going through this in some way, 'cause everyone is affected and is going to be in some way by the physical toll that this is taking on people. To that point, you know, I think there's a few things that orgs can do kind of from the top down. I think there's also things certainly that any individual colleague or manager can do for the folks around them, but I'll talk about this on a couple of levels. Sidebar, I always think of the Nick Jonas song "Levels" whenever I'm thinking about how to approach this work. Zach: Now, hold on, what is the Nick Jonas song--'cause see, the only song I know by Nick Jonas is that "I still get jealous--" You know what I'm saying? "[continues singing]."Dr. Thomas: It's about--I'm trying to think of how it goes. It's about "love has levels." "Levels, levels." I don't know the words.Zach: Come on, Erin. Come on. I hear you with the vocals.Dr. Thomas: I know. I gotta find it, but I like him, and I know he has a song called Levels, and I always think about it. It's like, "Oh, levels, take me higher--" I don't know. Levels take me higher. I don't know. It's a terrible song.Zach: It's a terrible song? Okay. Did he have a black choir in the background? [both laugh] Yo, when Nick Jonas came out there, boy, he came out there and they was like, "I still get jealoous." I was like, "What is going on? Jesus ain't got nothing to do with this." I mean, he's a jealous guy. Anyway, moving forward... [both laughing] Dr. Thomas: I'm gonna have to find it, I'm gonna have to sing it and just send you a little audio clip, 'cause I can't even remember the tune, 'cause it's not a memorable song. Love you, Nick.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Dr. Thomas: You know? From the top down, companies, and really I'm talking about leaders, people leaders, diversity leaders, can take care to do a few things. One is--and I saw this during the earlier days of people sheltering in place. I think it's leveled out maybe a bit, at least from my vantage point, but in the beginning there was a lot of corporate messaging--and I think you even see this still in commercials--of, you know, "We're all in this together," and on its face, cool, cool, cool. Like, right, you want to build camaraderie, you want to cohere folks around a shared sense of community, but if you beat that drum a little too long, especially within your company, I think it can kind of err to the side of being colorblind, right, and really minimizing the disproportionate strain that there actually is on employees of color and on black and brown folks. So I think striking that balance of certainly we're all in this together, and also there are distinct experiences that we know folks are grappling with. It's an important sort of dual approach to make sure that your folks who are black and brown know that they're seen, know that they're recognized for their unique experiences through this and the unique impacts that they're encountering. So that's one thing, just sort of take that multicultural lens to those company communications that you're sending out. I think another thing is, you know, wherever you can creating space for employees to uncover and share more about their specific experiences. So, you know, we did this back in April at Upwork. We partnered with Michelle Kim, who I know is a friend of the pod.Zach: Come on. What's up, Michelle J. Kim? Shout-out to Awaken Co. What's up? [imitating air horns]Dr. Thomas: [joins in, Zach laughs] She's awesome, and we sort of co-facilitated I think a 75-minute conversation with leaders of our Asian ERG(s)--and this is before the data about [?] were coming out with regards to black and brown folks, and the conversation was mostly around--in terms of the media--anti-Asian bias and discrimination and racism, so we seized on the timeliness of that conversation and built out, you know, a virtual forum for our employees to share what they were concerned about, what they were hearing in their day-to-day lives and interactions, and to scale out from that, from those stories to give more context to, you know, why are we seeing this, what is this. This is not unique to this moment in time. This is, you know, a pattern repeating, and really come from a place of urgency to educate our folks a little bit more about historical context and why it matters now and certainly what they can do to disrupt and call out bias in themselves and discriminations they're seeing externally. A third thing is certainly around mental health and benefits and resources to aid folks, you know, who are experiencing trauma and grief. And I don't think this just has to be if you've lost someone close to me. I think in general folks are really struggling obviously with anxiety and insomnia, and there's data coming in on that, and so making sure that your company has the right level and amount of bereavement and [leave?] policies, but also just coaching and support with your EAP if you have one or your [?] and getting them at least to a basic level [?] of providing that 1:1 support for folks and hopefully referring them out to medical providers if they need, you know, more professional coaching. And then the last thing, you know, is related to what you were saying about terminations and lay-offs and all that. Every company should be auditing the decisions they're making this time when it comes to furloughs and risks, making sure that they're looking at that through an equity lens, making sure that they're not just focusing on people's kind of positions in the company or tenure, because black and brown folks tend to sit lower in the org and tend to be earlier in their tenure, so really taking a performance-based approach to that analysis can be helpful in getting out of that sort of hamster wheel of, you know, first in first out when it comes to black and brown folks. So those are, you know, top-down, structural considerations that companies can be taking every day. I think on the ground, peers and managers can be doing some of what we've already role modeled in this conversation. Check in with people, my goodness. Just think about who you haven't spoken to in a while. Think about who you might normally pass at, you know, the water cooler or the coffee station, and if you haven't chatted with that person 1:1 in a minute, you know, Slack them, ping them, whatever you've got in terms of internal messaging systems, call them, pick up the phone and check in. Just see how people are doing, and make sure you create, you know, space to actually hear their answer and to actually respond. So, you know, as opposed to the normal "How's it going?" Like, really ask the question and really wait for the answer and be with that person with whatever they share, you know? I think it's really about those personal connections that we probably took for granted when we were back in an office setting, for those of us who were in offices, and that are harder to actualize now, right? Like, we're all home. We're all behind screens, and so there is no organic water cooler conversation. That means we have to make a little bit more effort to reach out to folks and to show them that we care about them, that we're connected to them and that we're a resource, or that the company has resources, for them whenever they need.Zach: I love it, I love it. Now, Erin, you know that we're about real talk in a corporate world like I said at the top of the show. For the executive leader to this and perhaps rolling their eyes or maybe, like, speed listening and being like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah," like, you know, just kind of being dismissive as to the gravity of this and why this matters. Why should folks have an inclusive and equitable lens during this time, and then what's the potential fallout in your mind if they don't?Dr. Thomas: I have so many reactions to this question. I think, first, if someone's rolling their eyes to this, which... yeah, could be true, I'll just, like, emphatically say that's not my key audience. Like, I'm just not--you know, I'm really not, and I'm just not. That's not my sweet spot. There were times earlier in my career where that was, where I found it fun to really push the business case for equity, business case for diversity. I am not interested in that anymore, and thankfully I'm in an org where I don't have to do that. Like, kudos to those of you who are doing that. Frankly, for me personally, that's ineffective, right? You know, people do not make decisions based on facts or data. So, you know, I could stand here and talk about the research that's been done. You know, Great Place to Work just did a study around [?], right, and they showed that those who focused on inclusion did better during the recession and saw more returns. So, like, I could share all those stats and all that, but it doesn't matter. Like, if you're rolling your eyes, if you are asking why or if, like, it's probably not gonna happen for you. Just call it, you know--because you can Google it, you can ask Siri, you can ask Jeeves, you can do whatever you want to do, but, like--Zach: [laughing] Not ask Jeeves.Dr. Thomas: [laughing] You can go back to Jeeves if you have to, but my point is that this is not how people make decisions. People make decisions emotionally. They do what they want to do and then they rationalize it later. That is a fact. Zach: That is a fact.Dr. Thomas: You know, it is. And that's science. [laughs] And so if you're not in any way emotionally inclined to care, nothing I say, no data point is gonna make you care. So I think that's one thing. Like, I am impatient and frankly, especially with, you know, decades of research that I think has really caught on in industry, we're just past the point of denying the value proposition of diversity. I think it wastes calories. I think it distracts from the meaningful question, which is, like, how we can go about it during this time or, you know, what we should be prioritizing. I think those are fair questions, but if you're, for whatever strange reason, listening to this podcast and rolling your eyes, like, I don't have time for it. I just don't. I don't. And already that was too much time explaining how I don't have time for it. So that's my quick reaction to that. [both laughing] I think those who are kind of, you know, struggling with how to go about this or where to maybe invest less or more, that's incredibly fair. I think that is incredibly challenging. So what I would say there is just--it goes back to what we talking about earlier. I mean, this is life and death, right? It does not get more real in terms of a call to action than this moment in time, and I think every leader should sit themselves down and critically examine what legacy they want to leave, you know? This is the time for companies to demonstrate what living values, living their values actually looks like. It's their time to pressure test, you know, different mantras that companies love to share around, you know, authentic selves at work, or "Bring your whole selves to work," because you saying--it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You're saying those things... well, here's your moment. Here's your moment to [know?] what it really means, and that's true at the company level, it's true at that personal level. Hopefully you're inclined to want to dig more deeply into what actualizing on your commitments actually could mean right now, and I think that's the place to get really serious about where are the potential gaps between what you're saying and doing. And as we said earlier, you know, if you realize "Huh, even in these most dire circumstances, we're maybe not really ready to make the investment that we might need to actually move the needle or create the environment that our people need." Okay. That's a tough conclusion to come to, but okay.Zach: That's responsible though, right?Dr. Thomas: Right. Yeah. I mean, and then okay, well, then you have to communicate that back, but if you have been talking a game for a while and are realizing you want to step it up, that's amazing, and I think from there what you can be doing is really leveraging external leaders--I mean, there's a lot of information, tools that are free. You could certainly and should be always leveraging your internal employees or workers however they want to be leveraged to help you reveal your blind spots. But this is it. Like, this is the moment, and hopefully orgs will really step it up and leave a footprint that I think can last for generations. You know, what companies do now I think is going to reset how people see them in the public light, how people see them as an employer of choice or not, and so it's a critical kind of come to Jesus moment hopefully for leaders and orgs to double down or to de-emphasize the things that we've been talking about for a while.Zach: Yo. Man, I mean this has just been an incredible conversation. I would be remiss not to drop a Flex bomb right here, and then also some air horns, put 'em in right here. Okay, there we go. Erin, before we let you go--before Emory and I, excuse me, let you go, any parting words or shout-outs? I know you've been dropping wild gems this entire time, but I just want to give you one last--you know, where they can find you, what you're excited about with Upwork, anything. Give you time to plug.Dr. Thomas: Oh, goodness. Okay, I did not prepare for this. I have so many people to thank. I would say find me on Twitter. That's it. Please don't try to find me on LinkedIn. I don't respond on LinkedIn. Real talk. It's just too cluttered. So ErinLThomasPhD is my Twitter handle. I would say check out Upwork. I have been a lot of places. I have led diversity within two other organizations before now. I've been an expert consultant. I've seen a lot of what companies are doing, and I wouldn't be at Upwork if I weren't rabidly passionate about what we're doing and about all of the magic ingredients that attracted me to our company. So I'd love for folks to check us out. Come work with us. We're a great, amazing, purposeful company doing great work, with cool leaders like me, so come on through.Zach: I mean, this is the best ad I could imagine. [both laugh] All right, y'all, you know what it is. We're having real talk in a corporate world. I'm saying it, like, three times this time, but you know we amplify and center marginalized, underappreciated, underrepresented, undersupported, underestimated voices at work, and look, you can check us out anywhere, okay? Look, we're all over Barack Obama's internet. You just Google Living Corporate, okay? We're gonna pop up. We're there, okay? We're all over. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, @LivingCorporate on Instagram. Shoot, if you old school and you're like, "Nah, Zach. I gotta go in the browser and type in the domain like a true OG," then I'ma say, "Okay, cool," and I'ma tell you www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash, or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got all of the Living Corporates except livingcorporate.com, so if you type in livingcorporate.com and Living Corporate does not pop up do not be mad at me, 'cause I told you already we don't got that one. We got all the other livingcorporates, or living-corporate.com--please say the dash, all right? You can also email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us, okay? DMs are wide open. We are not afraid of the random DM. Just hit us up. We'll make sure we hit you back. If you have a listener letter, you know, you could submit it right there. We'll answer it on the show. We got a decent number. We try to get to a critical mass so we can answer a few, and then we kind of make that an episode. Just so y'all you know. It's, like, a peek behind the curtain. Until next time, y'all. This has been Zach, and you've been listenimg to Dr. Erin Thomas of Upwork. Me and Emory are gonna catch y'all later. Emory, you got anything to say? [Emory's silent] Nope? All right, y'all. Peace.

Priorities are hard. This episode is not explicit. Hard Pressed was written and performed by Jordache and Nikki Richardson from the Top of the Round Podcast. totrpodcast.com TRANSCRIPT HARD PRESSED TRANSCRIPT WRITTEN AND PERFOMED BY JORDACHE AND NIKKI RICHARDSON Dr: [mumbling] If I could find a way to keep the temperature down but increase the pressure on the fluids then I should be able to theoretically not see a decrease in the concentration levels of – Rachael: Sir shouldn’t you get back to the --- Dr.: Not now Rachael! Can’t you see I am doing essential work! Now where was I? Right, if I can increase the pressure Rachael: Dr. Fibonacci, it’s just, you’re spiraling again. Sir. Dr. Fibonacci: I, you’re right Rachael. It’s a bad habit, but do you not think this work is essential?! Rachael: Compared to the governor asking you to find a way to get test results faster? No I think the new French press can wait. Progress by AlekSound Link: https://filmmusic.io/song/6019-progress License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Here are the tunes that you can find me tapping my toes to in my fallout shelter. - Sir Lancelot. Atomic Energy -Warren Smith. Uranium Rock-Dore Alpert. Fallout Shelter-Uknown Artist. H-Bomb-Glenn Barber. Atom Bomb-Commodores. Uranium-Hawkshaw Hawkins. When They Found the Atomic Power-Sons of the Pioneers. Old Man Atom-Marty Robbins. Ain't I Right

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

Are you watching closely? No stupid, you're listening. Unless you are watching on YouTube, but that is just a still frame so go do something else while you listen you apes. Where was I? Right! The Prestige. Hot dog this was a neato movie. Jake hadn't seen it because he is lame but Jon invited him to the show. The conversation is about magic, cinema, lost fingers and fan theories. Give it a listen. Or sacrifice your twin brother and kill your rival and proceed to raise your daughter.

My View On Abortions ... but who am I Right?

It’s the timeless tale of a little boy who lies sick in bed one wintery Chicago day. He plays a video game called "Hardball," produced by Accolade, Inc., in 1985, for the Commodore 64 computer system. It’s the bottom of the third inning, and Allen steps up to the plate...What kind of story is this? Is this a trick? I thought we were doing something epic for our Four Hundredth Episode.Keep your shirt on, and let me read! Now, where was I? Right, this movie has everything: fencing, fighting, torture, revenge, giants, monsters, chases, escapes, true love, miracles… It’s The Princess Bride, and this is Legends 400! Spoiler Alert! Spoiler Alert! These discussions will be spoiler filled and may explicit language, so consider yourself warned.   For more geeky podcasts visit GonnaGeek.com You can find us on iTunes under ''Legends Podcast''. Please subscribe and give us a positive review. You can also follow us on Twitter @LegendsPodcast or even better, send us an e-mail. You can find all our contact informations here on the Network page of GonnaGeek.com Our complete archive is always available at www.legendspodcast.com

Classical music: the future frontier. These are the voyages of the podcast Classical Classroom. It’s mission: to explore strange new music – Sorry. I’ll stop. Where was I? Right! Composer, performer, and Mannes College of Musiccomposition faculty member, Missy Mazzoli talks to us about the future of classical music, from the future, aka, New York. Also talked about in this episode: Beth Morrison, Schoenberg, David Little, pillow fights, Lars von Trier, eighth blackbird, Richard Reed Parry, Bryce Dessner, Victoire, Abigail Fischer, “bands” vs. “ensembles”, operatic voice, and streaming music. PS, If you’re in the Houston area, Missy’s opera, Song from the Uproar, will be making its premiere here at Da Camera in March of 2015. For more info, click here! Audio production of this episode by Todd “Tisk Tisk” Hulslander with buckets of help from Dacia Clay. All music in this episode was composed by Missy Mazzoli. For more about Missy Mazzoli: www.missymazzoli.com

节目组: The World Says 世界说 节目名称: 星座S: Hey guys welcome to the world says from the VOE foreign languages radio station, I'm SherlockJ: And I'm JottaI: Good evening everyone I'm Iris and this is Francis.F: 大家好，我是Francis 插曲1 one S: So today we are going to talk about the astrology, or horoscope, or zodiac signs.J: Wow, I love magic most! Well there are lots of words in English to describe it. So, what's the Chinese mean of them?F: 嗯，这些词在中文里就是星座的意思。I: So in today's program we will bring you some knowledge about Astrology, and hope you like it.S: Okay, so the astrology is more like western thing, and I guess a lot of people think is like a superstition.F: 哦，像是一种迷信。S: Yeah Yea, but the other way, you know, in China is also popular among our students, especially girls.I: Yeah, I see this stuff in the Wechat all the time, talking about astrology. Speaking about this, do you know how to ask people their astrology in English?F: Isn't it….. What's your astrology?S: No… no is not, the astrology here is a little bit like.. a subject, like… the process how a planet move or something..J: 所以 astrology 这个词还是代表星象学多一点，而不是星座。 I: Right, so here you cannot just say What's your astrology, the one is What's your sign.S: Right, horoscope, what about horoscope, can we just use what's your horoscope?I: Neither, cause horoscope is like. You are reading a newspaper, I mean, like today, my luck is low..J: Oh I get it, wow, looks like somebody has done lots of work in it.I: You bet~S: I'm so glad we do this program with you Iris, cause, ya'know boys like Francis and I really don't know this a lot. And, for our today's show, I also check out some information.F: Just say it.S: Speaking of constellations, in fact, there are two levels of meaning, one is astronomy, the other is astrological.I: Come on, it's hard to understand.J: Constellation, which means a group of stars that forms a particular pattern and has a name.F: 并且zodiac的意思是黄道带，也就是太阳、月亮和行星构成的假想带。S：The conclusion is that, astrology and horoscope is more inclined to superstition. I've always been against superstition about the constellation. I do not think there is a supernatural power to control the will and behavior of mankind.I: Yes, fate is in our own hands. But sometimes we use it to have some fun is also good.S: I agree. So, could you say something about your constellation?I: Pisces pets are the most empathetic. You could have shared a past life experience with these lovely critters, they have excels in the art of listening.J: just iris is like that, lovely!F: 没错，双鱼座擅长倾听，他们还喜欢和人分享过去的经历。S：And Pisces can handle many different tasks at once and be successful in all of them. Come on, could I say：It's impossible?I: You can't. Pisces is often a very sensitive, very mystical, and very misunderstood sign. They're highly sympathetic. Ok. It's your turn.S：They just like me, Lance, Adam, Terry, Kenny, Abel, Thomas and Austin.J: Can't imagine that, but it was just an if.I:So you're a Aries. Sounds like my name. Ha-ha. I know that Aries people have the qualities of being impulsive, of being leaders, of being very...impatient.J:They also are natural-born entrepreneurs. They wanna do things. They don't wanna just sit here. They wanna just go and do things. Ok, it's time to talk about my star sign.I: What's your sign, Jotta?J: Capricorn, that's the Goat.S: The mountain goat—highly, highly ambitious. They wanna climb the mountain.J: You get the idea here. It's an earth sign. They're very practical, really organized.F:而且他们通常在生意上以及任何种类的建构上都表现得很好，因为他们是由土星管辖。I: Wow, it seems you know a lot about Capricorn.F: Yeah. Because I'm a Scorpio. They are similar.J: But there's two different types of Scorpios, they say: the ones that are very high with moral standing, and the other ones that go down.S: So, when you're thinking about a Scorpio, though, you're thinking about someone who's very intense, who is very driven, and who can very much wanna be a part of your life and merge.F: This is somebody who doesn't take anything light-heartedly.J:Oh,Iris,do you know what characteristic of a Gemini？S: Oh? Whose sign is Gemini?J: Emm...someone...I...you know...I: Oh, I know. Ha-ha.F:I know that they are always changing their mind.I: Yes, and qualities of Geminis—they are endlessly curious, very social, friendly people, intellectual, too. And they like a lot of stimulation.J: Thank you Iris. Ah, it's time to say goodbye.F: Hope you enjoy our program .See you next time.S:感谢制作苏鑫。I:如果你喜欢我们的节目，请关注我们的微信公众号 VOE-radio 和VOE外语广播电台的新浪微博，那里有我们往期的作品。 节目监制：周宸聿编辑：朱子业 夏茂航 张燚铭 余若天 播音：朱子业 夏茂航 张燚铭 余若天制作：苏鑫

节目组: The World Says 世界说 节目名称: Talk with foreigners scientificallyS: Dear audience, you are listening to is the world says from the VOE foreign languages station. This is handsome Sherlock. I: And this is cute lovely Iris. I：After last week's program, have you guys know more about foreigners?S：Yes, this week we are going to learn more about foreigners. Come on, I can't wait for no longer, your quiz question.I：As you said,Sherlock, I have a question to ask you first. According the last UK census taken in 2011, what percentage of the British population speaks a first language that is not English?A) 1.7% B) 7.7% C) 14.7%S: That's an interesting one. My first guess is c) 14.7%.I: enhen~we'll find out if you are right or wrong later. S:(打断) Iris, Consider the times you've hopped on a subway, boarded a plane or entered a waiting room. I：Chances are, you probably avoided engaging with any fellow commuters or patients. So, never…S: Yes, But contrary to what we might think, we'd be happier if we did strike up a conversation with a total stranger.I: really?S: Really. In a study, commuters in Chicago were asked to either talk with a stranger on a train, or sit quietly alone, or just do whatever they'd normally do on their commute. Then, they responded to a survey about how they felt.I: how does it going?S：Turns out those who engaged with strangers had the most pleasurable experience and those who remained solitary had the least enjoyable experience.I: Wow ，unbelievable，Why?S: Well, according to a follow up study it's because we think, wrongly, that strangers don't want to talk with us.I: Right, maybe we should practice reaching out-who knows, commuting could become more enjoyable.S: That's good. Now, let's play a game named Communicate with the British need to step by step startling! step by step startling, which means need to be careful.I: What does it mean?S: just guess what the British thinking is.I'll ask you first: When the British says "I hear what you say.”I: They mean "He accepts my point of view."S: no! It's “I disagree and do not want to discuss it further." I: oh, their perspective is so strange. Well, let me text you: When the British says "With the greatest respect... “What do they mean? S: They mean "He is listening to me."I: no no no! This means “I think you are an idiot"S: An idiot! Ha-ha the greatest respect which means an idiot! It reminds me of another habit of talking to the Englishman.Listen, when the British say "That's not bad.” what does they mean I: en… They mean "That's poor."S: oh, come on, with the greatest respect. the mean of not bad is “That's good."I: wait, with the greatest respect? Are you using that word to laughing me? Let me ask you the last question. Ready?S: With the greatest respect, I 'm ready.I: When the British say "That is a very brave proposal.” …S: (打断)They mean "You are insane. “Right?I: Right! Well, you really know much thing.S: It seems that I know much, you should call me Master Sherlock.I: Save your laughing for the end of the race.S: ok, When the British say "I almost agree. " what does they meanI: ha-ha this is easy they mean "I don't agree at all." S: ya, that's not bad.I：Take that! When the British say "Very interesting.”en? The answer?S: Well, "They are impressed."I: obviously, they mean "That is clearly nonsense." You shall do more research on it.S: Seems that died to a tie! Have to say, you've done a lot of work.I：Sherlock，let's leave some questions to our audience, to let them join in~S: ok, the first one is-When the British say "I'll bear it in mind.” what does they meanI: Sounds like I will remember it forever! But it's not that simple. And the second one is: When the British say "I'm sure it's my fault.” what does they mean?S: I have to say, these questions are really interesting. If you want to check your answer, landing VOE foreign language radio station WeChat public number VOEradio, select our program, then you will see the answerI: that's Right. S: But now Iris, I need to know if I got today's question right.I：Yes. I asked you, according the last UK census taken in 2011, what percentage of the British population speaks a first language that is not English?S：I said 14.7%.I: You were wrong. The census found 7.7% per cent of people in the UK have a first language that is not English. That's 4.2 million people.Well, that's it for today.S: At the end of the program, we give you a few words to talk to foreigners.听你的！你说了算！You are the boss!毋庸置疑No doubt about it.我是认真的。I mean it.与您合作很愉快。it's a pleasure working with you.钱乃身外之物。Money will come and go.我非常想见到你。I've been dying to see you.很高兴与你聊天。Nice talking to you.一切顺利。Things couldn't be better.S: Sounds simple, right?That's all for today's listening. Goodbye. I: BYE.如果你喜欢我们的节目，请关注VOE外语广播电台的微信公众号VOEradio和VOE外语广播电台的新浪微博，那里有我们往期的作品。感谢制作苏鑫! 节目监制：周宸聿编辑：张燚铭，余若天播音：张燚铭，余若天制作：苏鑫

节目组: The World Says 世界说 节目名称: Is time passing quickly or slowly开头曲 B a noBodyV: Hello everybody, welcome to the world says from the VOE foreign languages station. I'm VincentI: Hi dear audience, I'm Icey.L: And I'm Louisa. Did you have a good weekend, Vincent?V: Yes, but it flew by ,which means it went quickly, and here we are again, back at work!I: Hm. I know what you mean. Though I must say, time really dragged for me, and that means it went slowly. I was on a train, which broke down.V: Oh dear!I: And it felt like it took forever to arrive, though actually it was only delayed only by one hour.V: Well, today we're talking about our perception of , or the way we see – time. 插曲1 B a noBody I: It's true that when we're busy doing lots of things, time flies by. And when we're bored or have nothing to do, it drags. And I didn't have anything to do on the train. Do you think time flows at the same rate for everyone – even animals?V:My sister's little cat doesn't get bored doing nothing all day. I wonder if time drags for her sometimes?L:Good question! Did you know, Vincent, that, according to a new study, smaller animals perceive time as if it is passing in slow motion?V:That sounds weird. Do you think they hear us like this: t…a…l…k…i…n…g s…l…o…w…l…y…?L: Don't be silly, Vincent !What I meant was that small animals such as insects and small birds can observe more detail in a certain period of time, for example, a second，than larger animals.V: But how does this help them, exactly? It sounds like the day would really drag if every second got stretched out like that!L: Well, it helps them by giving them time to escape larger predators.Now, small animals can typically process more visual information than we can. But in a dangerous situation our brains can work in overdrive to process information more quickly .And overdrive means a state of extreme activity.V: Yeah, a very obvious example is that when we're taking an exam, we are in a more efficient state than ordinary times.L: Ha Ha, Of course, that's because our brain is pushed to be more productive for getting a satisfied mark. 插曲 2 Heroine V: And there is another situation in which the brain can work in overdrive, that is when we are facing an dangerous situation.L:Have you ever been in a dangerous situation where your brain went into overdrive, Vincent?V:Yes, I was ten years old and I fell backwards out of a big tree in our garden.L:Oh no! That's terrible. I'm sorry to hear that.V:Yeah. I have a vivid memory of the sun flashing above me, and the clouds moving across the sky, and the leaves rustling in the tree above me, my mum was screaming through the kitchen window as she saw me fall .I experienced so much in the space of just a few seconds.L:Yes. A vivid memory, by the way, is clear and detailed. Oh, poor Vincent! Did you hurt yourself?V:Some big bruises, but no broken bones. No serious.L:Glad to hear it. Now, it's a strange trick of memory that in a scary situation your brain starts to record everything in great detail. And the more memory you have of an event, the longer you believe it took. This idea explains why children often feel that time is passing slowly – because their experiences are new, and they are creating lots of new memories.V:However, boring adults are following routines that don't require new memories because they're so familiar. I:But let's listen to Claudia Hammond, author of Time Warped, talking about how we can stretch time and make our days feel longer – in a good way! He says If we can spend our weekend filling it with lots of new different activities, it'll go fast, at the time, because we're having fun. But when we look back, say, on Sunday night, and we've got to go to work next day, it will feel as if our weekend was long, because we filled it with new memories. 插曲3 Broken over youV:We should do that, this weekend, Icey. What do you think?I:Definitely. I'm going to buzz around like a fly, creating lots of new memories.V:Flies have eyes that send updates to the brain at much higher frequencies than our eyes, because they can process the information more quickly. This speed illustrates the impressive capabilities of even the smallest animal brains.I:Right, animals are great Maybe we can't do like flies. But we can arrange our spare time properly. Time had past as soon as we joined more activities.V:Of course, We should take part in more activities, read more books and do something that is good for us.I:Arrange our new term, we also can gain full of new memories.V:The new term is coming . I'm busy preparing the examination for MS office this month these days, and in my new term, I'll try my best improving my English level, especially my oral English. 插曲 4 Broken over you L:What's your plans, my audience? Have you decided what will you do? What's your new target?Remember never let your laziness drive your precious time!V:As the show has proceeded here. It's time to say goodbye to you all. Thank you for your listening. See you next time, bye. 感谢制作苏鑫、王子丞。 结束曲 Broken over you节目监制：周宸聿 编辑： 杨晏直 刘芳宇播音： 陶麓伊 杨晏直 刘芳宇制作：苏鑫

How an I Right with God Through the GospelSeries: Gospel Conference 2016 Preacher: Jim MastersSaturday ConferenceDate: 23rd January 2016

It's almost over.Season 2 of Carrie On will be over before you know it! Only one more episode to go.But we've got BIG-ger fish to fry right now. Like how hard it is to get over an ex (am I right ladies?). And how much fun it is to snag that affordable summer share in the Hamptons with your best girlfriends (am I RIGHT, ladies?)!Listen in as Alec and Kat are BLESSED with the presence of a brand new Carrie On guest, the ridiculously funny Riley Rose Critchlow!Enjoy the hell out of Riley's sketch comedy (with Carrie On regular Daniel Montgomery) here:https://www.youtube.com/user/BowlingForTiffanyDon't forget to follow us on Instagram and Twitter @carrieonpodcast -- and if you haven't already, rate us on iTunes!

Classical music: the future frontier. These are the voyages of the podcast Classical Classroom. It’s mission: to explore strange new music – Sorry. I’ll stop. Where was I? Right! Composer, performer, and Mannes College of Musiccomposition faculty member, Missy Mazzoli talks to us about the future of classical music, from the future, aka, New York. Also talked about in this episode: Beth Morrison, Schoenberg, David Little, pillow fights, Lars von Trier, eighth blackbird, Richard Reed Parry, Bryce Dessner, Victoire, Abigail Fischer, “bands” vs. “ensembles”, operatic voice, and streaming music. PS, If you’re in the Houston area, Missy’s opera, Song from the Uproar, will be making its premiere here at Da Camera in March of 2015. For more info, click here! Audio production of this episode by Todd “Tisk Tisk” Hulslander with buckets of help from Dacia Clay. All music in this episode was composed by Missy Mazzoli. For more about Missy Mazzoli: www.missymazzoli.com