Podcasts about daniel you

What kind of person do we want to be in this tumultuous world? Join us as Kent dives into Daniel's resilience and courage. Tune in for a challenging sermon. EASY TO GIVE at Harmony, text any amount to (859) 459-0316 to get started (or give online @ my.harmonychurch.cc/give). Get the fill in the blank bulletins my.harmonychurch.cc/bulletins. ---------------- OPENING ILLUSTRATION: Have you ever heard the saying, “you're gonna have to hang in there like a hair in a biscuit…” Lol, I had a buddy say that the other day and it cracked me up. What he meant was sometimes in life you have to hang on hard to make it through. We've all ben there right? When life feels like it's thrown a wrench at you and you weren't able to dodge… WE: -The moment when the divorce settled in and the night felt darker than it's ever felt sitting alone in your living room -The way it takes everything you've got to make it through a day to look normal to everyone else since returning from deployment -Or that time when every day it was literally “which bill do we not pay right now…” We've all had those moments where you are holding on by the skin of your teeth.. US: I believe we are in a moment in history where for Christians, you following Jesus is not going to be easy… ILLUSTRATION: I was invited recently by a missionary to Pakistan to give a devotion to some people who had converted from Islam to Christianity there. I wasn't able to do it, but before I knew that, I asked him what he wanted me to say to them - if anything. Here's what he told me. He said, “Can you encourage them, many of them have lost family, jobs, etc. to follow Christ. It has cost them everything.” Then he said something that has been challenging me ever since, “But also encourage them to be bold in their faith and to not be afraid, the world they live in it's dangerous to be a Christian and they need to know not to be afraid…” Reminded me of something Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Today in the Story of God we are at a place where those who are left have to hold one with everything they've got - like a hair in a biscuit… I think for us as Christians there is a lot to learn from the guy we are going to look at today… SCRIPTURE: The Kingdom of Israel has been split, the Northern tribes have been swept off into Assyria and one will ever hear from those people again… Now the Southern Kingdom is being attacked by the Babylonians - They will take the entire nation into exile in Babylon. Much of the rest of the bible - the prophets Jeremiah, Lamentations, Isaiah, and minor prophets - Malachi, etc. either take place during this time frame or right after. This moment in history will change the Jewish people forever. They will move from being a religious group centered around worship at their temple to a group that is dedicated to the Torah (the Old Testament). b Rabbis and Synagogues will become a thing. Judaism as we know it finds its root in the Babylonian exile. b The people finally are met with the dilemma, do we obey the covenant with God, or disappear from history? b They seek to obey the covenant But even this will become corrupt with rule-following to abandon the God of the covenant… This moment in history - terrible moment… Imagine it. One night you are sleeping in your beds, you've been comforting your children all night long telling them it will be alright, the city walls of Jerusalem are strong. They finally went to sleep but you have stayed up all night listening to the fighting men whispering in the streets as the Babylonian fires grow outside the walls. The next day attack occurs. and by the end of the next day you and your children are being forcibly removed from your house, marching without water, men with ropes around their necks and arms tied to horses. your voice gone from screaming and your tears all cried out. You do everything you can to protect your children as they watch horrors executed around them. It's too easy to read about these things and events and not realize these are real people who are ripped out of their homes and sent to live in lands where they do not speak the language and where they are in captivity long enough for an entire generation to disappear. That brings us to the collision with this moment in history, one of the people who was captured and taken as a prisoner was Daniel… You may have heard of “Daniel and the Lion's Den” it's that Daniel and that took place while he was a captive. When Daniel is captured he is a young aristocrat - likely in the house of Judah. The Babylonians had an effective means of assimilating people. They take the young up-and-coming leaders and indoctrinate them into the society and culture, letting them eat from the King's table and teaching them the ways of the Babylonians. Daniel is one of these young men. But Daniel is different - he's gonna hang on like a hair in a biscuit, listen to Daniel Daniel 1:8 8 But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way. Daniel was someone who understood there was more going on in his world than just being successful in the situation he was in… As a matter of fact, this is who Daniel is over and over again The reason you know about him being thrown into a lion's den is because he is unwilling to stop praying to God, no matter the consequences. b Daniel was living for a different Kingdom than the one he lived in. As a matter of fact, Daniel also over and over again spoke bravely about this Kingdom… Listen to some interpretations of dreams he gives to Kings: To Nebechudnezzer who has had a dream about massive statue that represented different kingdoms… Daniel says… Daniel 2:44-45 44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces. Or in a vision Daniel had that disturbed him greatly, he saw 4 beasts that represented different kingdoms of the earth and at the end of his vision he saw this: Daniel 7:13-14 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. b Daniel isn't waiting for a Jewish Kingdom, he's waiting for God's Kingdom to come! b The reason Daniel could stand firm in a corrupt generation is because He feared God more than anything people could do to Him. b I believe we are in a time when being a Christian will take engaging God with grit. b Holding on to love with strength. b ILLUSTRATION: I remember being in High school when it hit me. I have to choose who gets my greater allegiance, the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of America? They are not the same thing, no matter what you've been told. For me, my political persuasion is always held against Jesus and His Kingdom. The word of God is my standard. If you don't know it yet, Jesus came to fulfill Daniel's prophecies. Jesus came to bring a Kingdom that would be subversive and would change the world from the inside out. b Through you and me… Luke 17:20b-21 20b “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,' or ‘There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” CLOSING: My poor wife has a curse on her life. Literally, has the worse luck. Every restaurant we are ever in, she gets the fork with food on it or hair in her food. She can tell you what it means to hang on like a hair in a biscuit. That sucker aint coming out. What about you? Have you decided the kind of person you want to be? Do you want to be a Daniel who hangs on to Jesus no matter what this world throws at you, choosing your allegiance to the Kingdom God has put in you. Or, do you still want to be the kind of person who eats the food this world puts in front of you, who gives in over and over again to the little concessions that will ultimately assimilate you into a life that's far from the heart of God? Make the choice today what kind of person you want to be!

Ukrainian Miss Japan "exposed"! Poor innocent black victims, not! Dartmouth basketball unionized! Do unions have a place? The Hake Report, Tuesday, February 6, 2024 AD TIME STAMPS * (0:00:00) Topics: Miss Japan, black victims, Unions…* (0:01:56) Hey, guys! YT Raid botched! BOND tee (not available!) * (0:04:56) JAIME, MN: Women; Wife adores me; Taking care of family* (0:10:48) JAIME: Tara Reade, Biden; caller Mark, anger, Joe too* (0:13:36) CJ, TX: Eve adored Adam AFTER the fall! It's the fallen state! * (0:17:31) Supers: Napkin ban, Straws! Banned? Dylann Roof? * (0:21:38) Supers: "bipartisan" border bill, 5K illegals? Rumble!* (0:24:17) DANIEL, TX: Jack Cashill (JLP guest) "Untenable": financial / moral security * (0:28:23) DANIEL: You have to have money to be moral* (0:29:19) Ukrainian Miss Japan relinquished title over "affair"* (0:41:21) "Police violence" on black Americans* (0:53:02) Hate crimes in schools! Victims: blacks, LGBTQ, Jews!* (0:58:39) Steve Taylor - "Since I Gave Up Hope I Feel a Lot Better" (1987, I Predict 1990)* (1:02:23) Supers: Hake music, whites victims * (1:03:53) WILLIAM, CA: Woke test fail; VP ideas* (1:09:47) WILLIAM: SF weather; Hiroshima, Miss Japan, Carson, Bigg Bump* (1:12:19) WILLIAM: SF crime, black Americans, stores closing, cars smashed* (1:18:08) WILLIAM: King Charles cancer, William next. No Harry. * (1:19:23) Dartmouth shenanigans: SAT tests, UNIONIZED bball team! * (1:29:36) Zelensky to "clean house" in Ukraine? * (1:30:55) Tucker in Russia! (More union talk!) * (1:32:15) More Hake chat on unions* (1:37:42) STEVE, IL: Aggressive, angry. Live with wife's parents. Don't have to pray! (Counseling!) * (1:50:51) Xiu Xiu - "Jennifer Lopez (The Sweet Science Version)" (2002, Chapel of the Chimes) Hake is live M-F 9-11 AM PT (11-1 CT / 12-2 ET)  Call-in 1-888-775-3773  (Also see Hake News on The Jesse Lee Peterson Show)  https://www.thehakereport.com/show  BLOG https://www.thehakereport.com/blog/2024/2/6/the-hake-report-tue-2-6-24 PODCAST / Substack  VIDEO  YouTube  |  Rumble*  |  Facebook  |  X  |  BitChute  |  Odysee*  PODCAST  Substack  |  Apple  |  Spotify  |  Castbox  |  Podcast Addict  *SUPER CHAT on platforms* above or  BuyMeACoffee, etc.  SHOP  Teespring  ||  All My Links  JLP Network:  JLP  |  Church  |  TFS  |  Nick  |  Joel   Get full access to HAKE at thehakereport.substack.com/subscribe

Ray O'Daniel - You're The Only One For Me ( Longhorn )Dewey Groom - Within Your Crowd ( Longhorn )Eddie Ray - What Kind Of God Do You Think You Are ( Palms )Dugg Collins - I'm The Man ( Sunshine Country )Marvin Paul - Gamblin Woman ( Azalea )Gary D Smith - Hello Fort Worth ( Texas Ironhorse )Sam Bardin - There Ain't No Place Like Fort Worth Texas ( Vegas )Ronnie Mack - I Don't Worry About Anything ( Bucor )Boots Collins - Tennessee ( Manco )Candy Hawley - i Heard You Were Down At Billy Bob's ( Ear )Buddy Hagen - Pack It All Up And Stick It In Your Astro Dome ( Gilbert )Donny King - I Played That Song For You ( American Playboy )James Harold - It's You I Love ( Fed )John Baxter - King Of Broken Heart ( Country Sun )Mickey Gilley - Everything Turned To Love ( Lynn )Jim Mullen - I Got A Lot Done Today ( Banner ) Don Lummus - I Don't Need It Anymore ( Happy 7 )Royel Clark - Mama Didn't Teach Me ( Tony Rock )Al Perry - What Ever Turns You On ( Love ) Nadra Smith - A Little Less Than Nothing ( GM Record Co ) Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thehonkytonkjukebox/exclusive-content

Joël is joined by thoughtbot Software Developer and Dirt Jumper Daniel Nolan. Dirt jumping is BMX-style riding

Author, entrepreneur and International speaker Daniel Lewis is the proud founder of the award-winning tea company Daniel's Chai Bar (formerly known as T By Daniel.) His people-focused outlook on entrepreneurship and his experiential business tactics have garnered him and his company national recognition and many awards and honours such as the 2014 Young Entrepreneur of The Year (Brampton), 2016 Business Excellence Award, 2017 Top 40 Under 40 Entrepreneurs (Brampton), 2019 Toastmaster International Community Award, 2022 Global Visual Victories Silver Medal for most creative Pop-Up Store Design. With his official public speaking platform iAMDaniel.ca he touches on his non-traditional approaches to many business-related topics and themes with a special focus on helping organizations cultivate a people-centric approach to business, master the art of customer experience and discover the power of personality. Dr Irene and Daniel discuss his start in his career and early influences, why he helps other people to reach their potential, choosing positivity, his marriage, public speaking, and an experience with British Royalty! KEY TAKEAWAYS Daniel started as a songwriter so is no stranger to marketing himself and pitching his product in a high-competition market. Daniel has turned a near-death experience into a positive reason for life and continuing creativity. Sometimes we have to use our power to choose and our responsibility to choose a positive attitude. No matter how serious a situation, laughter can be freeing. People do not receive from you when you force them to believe what you believe. Daniel's success with his retail tea brand has even landed him an opportunity to serve His Majesty King Charles III during his 2017 Royal Tour to Canada. BEST MOMENTS‘All the people who had contributed to my life at that moment, the paramedics, the ambulance, the helicopter, my girlfriend now my wife, how she was with me in the hospital, everybody I saw how their contributions helped save my life and impact my life.'-Daniel ‘You make it easy because you are somebody who is very proactive, you decided not to be a victim but decided I'm the victor, I am deciding for myself now.'-Dr Irene ‘If we find something to laugh about and we go back to the great, free us, it just makes life lighter.'-Daniel ‘On stage, I share the message of impact, hope, and positivity.'-Daniel ‘Two months later we got a Royal Mail letter in the mailbox and it was from His Royal Highness saying how much he's enjoying the tea and it was just an amazing milestone.'-Daniel  VALUABLE RESOURCES Join Patreon : http://www.patreon.com/drireneching Instagram: irene.ching.777 Tiktok: @ireneching777 Youtube channel: Dr Irene Ching Twitter: @ireneching7777 Clubhouse: @ireneching1 https://www.facebook.com/irene.ching.735 LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/irene-ching-742623219 ABOUT THE HOSTDr Irene Ching is a medical practitioner who specialises in Family Medicine, Wealth and Life Coach, Property/ Business Investor, Speaker, and Podcaster. Dr Ching speaks on health, wellness and wealth in talks, workshops and events. She has her own coaching programme on money mindset - Quantum Wealth Creation Accelerator (online course with weekly coaching). In her coaching sessions, she works with emotional freedom techniques, energy works, NLP, Intuition/ Superconscious mind, Inner child healing, Timeline therapy, Self love works, behavioural change, goal settings and money attraction healing. Her motto: Reset Your Mind, Reset Your life. The podcast is aimed at people who wants to be high achievers who perform at their peak performance in all aspects of life. She has been interviewing successful entrepreneurs, keynote speakers, influencers and millionaires on this important subject. So stay tuned to get the deep dive on how to be happy, healthy and wealthy- the million dollar questions!

What type of leader are you when faced with a crisis? Are you an optimist, or pessimist, or do you personalize the crisis? How you show up in a time of crisis is a strong predictor of the quality of the leadership that you have. In this episode of the Inspirational Leadership podcast, I speak with Dr. Daniel Monehin, a leadership keynote speaker and adjunct professor. He uniquely combines real-world global leadership experience and rigorous empirical research. Dr. Daniel has had a 30-year career where he has held various leadership roles in diverse businesses, from start-ups to global businesses across wide-ranging industries. Listen in to learn why you can never sidestep crisis response as a leader, plus how to develop the skill of pragmatic optimism. You will also learn the importance of taking a pause and asking questions to understand a crisis in your organization instead of being dismissive. Key Takeaways: The power of being compelling in your message as a leader to influence people. How to take a pause and make your emotional side conscious to be able to lead with it. Learn to ask questions and be informed before you dismiss a crisis as a leader. How to harness goodwill from your people during a crisis by learning to externalize your feelings about it in a believable way. Standout Quotes: “In leadership development, if people don't believe you, they're not going to take your message.”- Dr. Daniel “You cannot delegate crisis response as a leader, actually, crisis is nothing other than a test of leadership.”- Dr. Daniel [28:14]

“In the past, it's been a little bit of a nebulous process and people trying to grab from Lean Startup and all these different things that are not cohesive as a journey.” - Daniel Elizalde   Innovation work can feel ambiguous and daunting, but Daniel Elizalde is working to bring clarity with a well-defined innovation journey. In this episode of Pragmatic Live, Rebecca Kalogeris, VP of marketing for Pragmatic Institute, interviews Daniel Elizalde, product executive, advisor and author of the B2B Innovators Map.   During this conversation, Rebecca and Daniel explore in-depth the six stages of the B2B innovator map, which are: Strategic alignment Market discovery User discovery Solution planning prototyping Early adopter They also emphasize a market-first approach where conversations about feasibility happen toward the end of the innovation process, not at the beginning.   “If you can build it, and if you can make money, it doesn't matter if nobody wants it.” —Daniel   You can learn more about Daniel's work and purchase his book on his website https://danielelizalde.com/   Additional Resources   Market. This course helps you gain a thorough understanding of your buyers and how they like to buy so, you can build the product marketing strategies that deliver results. Learn More   Want to learn more about effective launches? Launch is a course that helps you create a more strategic approach to exceed your business objectives. Learn to execute successful launches that align your entire organization around the same strategies and goals. Enroll Today

Daniel & Brian in rare form from 2 different cities in Orange County on this episode of “Drive Time OC”. We have a few cool events and a couple of stories for you in preparation for the weekend.Daniel - You'd better watch out! You'd better not cry! Cuz I'm telling you why!Web - https://www.newsbreakapp.com/n/0c4avq8x?pd=09BvhDI1&lang=en_US&s=i16“OC Real-Estate with Daniel Preszler”Brain - MindfulnessSat, Sep 25, 2021, at 10:00 AMAnaheim Convention CenterGeneral Admission - $35.00Web - https://mindfulnessexpo.com/EventsDaniel - San Juan Capistrano Greek Festival, 59th Annual Sandcastle Contest & Long Beach Grand PrixWeb - https://www.sjcgreekfest.org/, https://www.newportbeach.com/events/59th-annual-sandcastle-contest/https://ocregister-ca-app.newsmemory.com/?publink=0df01e5e3_1345f0bBrian - 2021 California Virtual Walk for Sjögren'sWeb - https://bit.ly/2021TeamSjogrensStrongLinksDrive Time OCWeb - https://sitchradio.com/our-shows/drive-time-oc/Twitter - https://twitter.com/DriveTimeOCInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/drivetimeoc/TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@drivetimeocFacebook - Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DriveTimeOCSponsors“OC Real-Estate with Daniel”Daniel Preszler - (714) 788-7525 Email - 714ocre@gmail.comSitch Radio - https://sitchradio.com/If you would like to become a sponsor or advertiser Call Sitch Radio (714) 643-2500

Joined today by the conversation master himself, Daniel Stillman. Daniel is the author of Good Talk and an expert on designing transformative conversations. We`ll take a deep dive into why conversations matter and how to make them better. Max Out Insights: Everything in our lives comes out of good dialogues and good connections. Be willing to have certain conversations, otherwise they will never happen. Seek to understand and connect as a human being, do not shrink away from difficult conversations. Take time to interact with yourself and have deep conversations within. Max Out Quotes: “Our lives area lived one conversation at a time.” “You can't get what you don't ask for.” “We are always designing our conversations either consciously or unconsciously.” “If you can't invite a conversation the odds are that it won't happen with you.” Connect with Daniel: You can find all about him at www.danielstillman.com and make sure to follow and connect with him on Instagram @dastillman

#36 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: CHRIS KAISER

#35 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: JACKTONE OTIENO

Conclusion of our series, “Kingdoms in Conflict,” a Study on the Book of Daniel You can take notes in the space below, or use today's | YouVersion Event Link | DOWNLOAD STUDY GUIDE 

Part twelve of our series, “Kingdoms in Conflict” a Study on the book of Daniel You can take notes in the space below, or use today’s | YouVersion Event Link | DOWNLOAD STUDY GUIDE

What We Covered:00:55 – Introducing today’s guest, Daniel Northway Frank, who talks about his background as a film consultant05:36 – Daniel speaks to the inspiration to launch the Queer Shopping Network14:31 – The importance of having places to shop that are inclusive, diverse and offer representation18:30 – Michelle takes a moment to thank today’s sponsor, BGSD Strategies20:18 – Daniel takes the audience through his entrepreneurial journey22:58 – Daniel talks about his three-pronged business approach25:20 – The power of galvanizing the queer community and lifting each other up higher27:23 – Daniel talks about the concept of ‘queer perfectionism’32:46 – Daniel encourages anyone with a queer product or business to reach out to himTweetable Quotes:“You want to keep telling the story in every different way possible and introducing new aspects of that film. So you need to come with as much creative ammo. And so, I like to try and help people develop that ammunition for the success of their film.” (04:53) (Daniel)“The idea of the Queer Shopping Network is to harness the buying power and the influence we have as a demographic to support our own creators, our own products, and also to support queer-positive corporations that are doing that work with their products and showcasing their products with marketing and communications that’s showing the diversity of their clientele.” (10:52) (Daniel)“You want to go to places where you know that there is a built-in respect, care, mindfulness in the audience of their own customers.” (15:24) (Daniel)“You have to know all of those components. Just through my life experience, I think that’s been a huge benefit where I’ve been able to take away those learning practices, see how they’ve worked and see how we’ve failed and make sure when I bring it to my own business that I have my best practices.” (22:17) (Daniel)“In the world of ‘business is competition,’ I think business is about collaboration. And especially when you’re marginalized, you need to band together to realize dreams because we’re all historically underfunded, under-resourced, underappreciated, ostracized, facing bigotry. We have a tougher go of it and we have a society that is naturally not going to be inclined to choose us first.” (24:03) (Daniel)“We are all one piece. We are all one percent of that hundred percent to make it happen. And we can’t do it if there isn’t that caring, giving camaraderie to let’s do this together and let’s figure out how this all works for us. It’s a really exciting and powerful collective movement that I’m really excited to pivoting towards.” (26:51) (Daniel)“Anyone who’s marginalizing knows that when you don’t fit the norm, you have to overcompensate and learn to navigate that professionally so you don’t burn yourself out.” (30:18) (Daniel)Links Mentioned:Daniel’s WebsiteQueer Shopping Network WebsiteDaniel’s Emails - queershoppingnetwork@gmail.com & dnf@queershoppingnetwork.comRainbow Connect WebsiteMichelle’s Website Queer Hustle Facebook Group BGSD Strategies Website

#34 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: ROMY SIGL

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN: Wake up!

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women MindStrength for Women Facebook Group Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]  

#33 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MAGDALENA GANTER

#32 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MAIKE STEUER

#31 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: AMELIA HANSEN

#30 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: BERNHARD BAUER

#29 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: NICOLA DE NITTIS

#28 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MART HERMKENS

#27 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: NICKI PAWLOW & MICHAEL NOTBOHM

#26 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: PETRA ZILLIGES

#25 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: PETRA JÄGER-SARKE

#24 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MALTE PRIEN

#23 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MATTHIAS HOMBAUER

#22 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: NATALIE HORMANN

#21 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MICHAEL PLENTINGER

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Hana: So, you're from Chile?Daniel: Yeah, that's right.Hana: If I ever travel to Chile, do you have any tips?Daniel: Well yeah, there are a lot of things that you should do in Chile and also a lot of things that you shouldn't do in Chile.Hana: Oh! For example?Daniel: Well I would definitely recommend to try Chilean food, especially in the small shops that we have, like in every street. If you go to like big restaurants, it's not going to be really authentic. So I think you should try small shops, in every street. Also if you're interested in nature, well you know, Chile has really long mountains, right. And they're beautiful, especially if you go in winter, you can go skiing and it's not far, it's about like two hours from like anywhere. So that's really cool. You should definitely do that. Also one thing, remember that it's Latin America, so you have to take care of your belongings. A lot of my friends have lost stuff there. But if you pay attention, it's going to be fine, just don't be too obvious that you're a tourist, and that's going to be alright. And probably lastly, I think you can see a lot of history there, our history, like the Indians we had before the Spanish came, and also the mix between the Spanish and those Indians.Hana: Is there anything I shouldn't do?Daniel: Well, I wouldn't really recommend you to take public buses, they're not very safe, so don't do it. Metro is much better, it's cleaner, it's faster and you can get pretty much anywhere in the city, so you shouldn't take buses. And also you should avoid downtown during night, night time, it's quite dangerous I think as any other big city. It is like any other city in the world, it's kind of dangerous when you go downtown at night time. So I think those would be my tips for you.Hana: I see, I'll keep that in mind, thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Hana: So, you're from Chile?Daniel: Yeah, that's right.Hana: If I ever travel to Chile, do you have any tips?Daniel: Well yeah, there are a lot of things that you should do in Chile and also a lot of things that you shouldn't do in Chile.Hana: Oh! For example?Daniel: Well I would definitely recommend to try Chilean food, especially in the small shops that we have, like in every street. If you go to like big restaurants, it's not going to be really authentic. So I think you should try small shops, in every street. Also if you're interested in nature, well you know, Chile has really long mountains, right. And they're beautiful, especially if you go in winter, you can go skiing and it's not far, it's about like two hours from like anywhere. So that's really cool. You should definitely do that. Also one thing, remember that it's Latin America, so you have to take care of your belongings. A lot of my friends have lost stuff there. But if you pay attention, it's going to be fine, just don't be too obvious that you're a tourist, and that's going to be alright. And probably lastly, I think you can see a lot of history there, our history, like the Indians we had before the Spanish came, and also the mix between the Spanish and those Indians.Hana: Is there anything I shouldn't do?Daniel: Well, I wouldn't really recommend you to take public buses, they're not very safe, so don't do it. Metro is much better, it's cleaner, it's faster and you can get pretty much anywhere in the city, so you shouldn't take buses. And also you should avoid downtown during night, night time, it's quite dangerous I think as any other big city. It is like any other city in the world, it's kind of dangerous when you go downtown at night time. So I think those would be my tips for you.Hana: I see, I'll keep that in mind, thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Hana: So, you're from Chile?Daniel: Yeah, that's right.Hana: If I ever travel to Chile, do you have any tips?Daniel: Well yeah, there are a lot of things that you should do in Chile and also a lot of things that you shouldn't do in Chile.Hana: Oh! For example?Daniel: Well I would definitely recommend to try Chilean food, especially in the small shops that we have, like in every street. If you go to like big restaurants, it's not going to be really authentic. So I think you should try small shops, in every street. Also if you're interested in nature, well you know, Chile has really long mountains, right. And they're beautiful, especially if you go in winter, you can go skiing and it's not far, it's about like two hours from like anywhere. So that's really cool. You should definitely do that. Also one thing, remember that it's Latin America, so you have to take care of your belongings. A lot of my friends have lost stuff there. But if you pay attention, it's going to be fine, just don't be too obvious that you're a tourist, and that's going to be alright. And probably lastly, I think you can see a lot of history there, our history, like the Indians we had before the Spanish came, and also the mix between the Spanish and those Indians.Hana: Is there anything I shouldn't do?Daniel: Well, I wouldn't really recommend you to take public buses, they're not very safe, so don't do it. Metro is much better, it's cleaner, it's faster and you can get pretty much anywhere in the city, so you shouldn't take buses. And also you should avoid downtown during night, night time, it's quite dangerous I think as any other big city. It is like any other city in the world, it's kind of dangerous when you go downtown at night time. So I think those would be my tips for you.Hana: I see, I'll keep that in mind, thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

#20 TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: NICOLE YAZOLINO alias IOKOKANOA

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: THOMAS SCHINDLER

We have a special episode of 3rd & Wrong for our listeners! We are pleased to be joined by former pro-football scout for the New York Jets, Daniel Kelly. Daniel takes us through his inspirational journey from rabid football fan working a variety of 9-5 jobs to landing his dream job as a scout for the New York Jets in 1998. His book, Whatever It Takes details his full journey to the NFL, however, Daniel was kind enough to share lots of content from the book including letters he had received from NFL coaches and owners from Washington to Cleveland. We also chat the big trade between the New York Jets and the Seattle Seahawks that saw All-Pro Safety Jamal Adams get traded for two first-round picks (2021, 2022), a third-round pick (2021) and safety Bradley McDougald. Who won the trade according to Daniel? You may be surprised to hear his answer.Be sure to follow Daniel on Twitter @danielkellybook as well as check out his book, Whatever It Takes, available online or on his website here.As always, you can find us on social media!Facebook: The Amateur AgencyTwitter: @amateuragencyInstagram: @theamateuragencyThis episode is sponsored by OKE Apparel! OKE Apparel was founded in Calgary, Alberta in 2019 when a young man was fed up with the poor quality and longevity of what was out there for supportive boxers. 3rd & Wrong has been raving about the comfort and design of their OKE Apparel boxers for months, and you can too!You can get a 15% discount off your first purchase by using the code THIRD15 at the checkout.

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: ROY VAN DER LEEK

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MAHA ALUSI

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: ANJA SCHERRET

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: FRANK BRAUN

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: ANNEGRET JENNEWEIN-KOBEL

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: BERND DEUTSCHMANN

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MONICA BAUDRACCO-KASTNER

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: So I really want to try chicha.Daniel: You should.Olga: Is it like wine? I heard like wine in Chile is really good, so is it any similarity to it?Daniel: Well, it's a bit lighter than wine. You don't get the color of red wine. It's not as strong as red wine but it also is much nicer because it's sweet and it tastes more like juice but it has alcohol in it.Olga: Then it should be a really young like wine right?Daniel: Yes it is.Olga: Oh, I see. And, you know, how many degrees of alcohol does it have? Is it really like strong?Daniel: I don't think, we haven't measured it because it's really, we don't produce it in any companies.Olga: Oh, I see. It's like a nice traditional drink?Daniel: It's a traditional drink but it's pretty much, it's really similar to wine. It's not that stronger.Olga: And do, you know, housewives in Chile make it like in their own house?Daniel: Yes, yes.Olga: Oh cool.Daniel: You can actually go to some places. There are some famous places you can go and you can see how they make it.Olga: Is it really a hard process?Daniel: I've heard it is so if you don't know how to do it, it will just stay as juice.Olga: And I guess they don't sell it in Santiago, right?Daniel: No we don't.Olga: Only, you know, in the countryside?Daniel: You have to go to the countryside, yes.Olga: Oh, I see. Well I would like to taste it so get it for me next time, right?Daniel: You have to come to Chile and get it for yourself.Olga: OK, I will.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: So I really want to try chicha.Daniel: You should.Olga: Is it like wine? I heard like wine in Chile is really good, so is it any similarity to it?Daniel: Well, it's a bit lighter than wine. You don't get the color of red wine. It's not as strong as red wine but it also is much nicer because it's sweet and it tastes more like juice but it has alcohol in it.Olga: Then it should be a really young like wine right?Daniel: Yes it is.Olga: Oh, I see. And, you know, how many degrees of alcohol does it have? Is it really like strong?Daniel: I don't think, we haven't measured it because it's really, we don't produce it in any companies.Olga: Oh, I see. It's like a nice traditional drink?Daniel: It's a traditional drink but it's pretty much, it's really similar to wine. It's not that stronger.Olga: And do, you know, housewives in Chile make it like in their own house?Daniel: Yes, yes.Olga: Oh cool.Daniel: You can actually go to some places. There are some famous places you can go and you can see how they make it.Olga: Is it really a hard process?Daniel: I've heard it is so if you don't know how to do it, it will just stay as juice.Olga: And I guess they don't sell it in Santiago, right?Daniel: No we don't.Olga: Only, you know, in the countryside?Daniel: You have to go to the countryside, yes.Olga: Oh, I see. Well I would like to taste it so get it for me next time, right?Daniel: You have to come to Chile and get it for yourself.Olga: OK, I will.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: So I really want to try chicha.Daniel: You should.Olga: Is it like wine? I heard like wine in Chile is really good, so is it any similarity to it?Daniel: Well, it's a bit lighter than wine. You don't get the color of red wine. It's not as strong as red wine but it also is much nicer because it's sweet and it tastes more like juice but it has alcohol in it.Olga: Then it should be a really young like wine right?Daniel: Yes it is.Olga: Oh, I see. And, you know, how many degrees of alcohol does it have? Is it really like strong?Daniel: I don't think, we haven't measured it because it's really, we don't produce it in any companies.Olga: Oh, I see. It's like a nice traditional drink?Daniel: It's a traditional drink but it's pretty much, it's really similar to wine. It's not that stronger.Olga: And do, you know, housewives in Chile make it like in their own house?Daniel: Yes, yes.Olga: Oh cool.Daniel: You can actually go to some places. There are some famous places you can go and you can see how they make it.Olga: Is it really a hard process?Daniel: I've heard it is so if you don't know how to do it, it will just stay as juice.Olga: And I guess they don't sell it in Santiago, right?Daniel: No we don't.Olga: Only, you know, in the countryside?Daniel: You have to go to the countryside, yes.Olga: Oh, I see. Well I would like to taste it so get it for me next time, right?Daniel: You have to come to Chile and get it for yourself.Olga: OK, I will.

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: MARC SCHÜPFERLING

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: RAFFAELLO PALANDRI

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: FRANZISKA GÜNTHER

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: TOBIAS MÄRZ

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: HAYLEY REARDON

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: ALI & KARE

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: CHRIS MARTENS

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: ROBERT CARL BLANK

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: JULIA FRENSCH

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: CHRISTOPH RAETHKE

TRÄUMEN & MACHEN Interview: CARINA HILLENBRAND

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hi Olga, how are you?Olga: Fine, Daniel, how are you?Daniel: Good, thanks. I wanted to ask you something. I'm really interested about Mexican holidays.Olga: What?Daniel: Can you tell me something about it?Olga: Sure but what do you want to know? I mean why are you interested in Mexican holidays?Daniel: What kind of holidays you have, what do you do in those holidays?Olga: Well my favorite holiday is the DÌa de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead.Daniel: What is it?Olga: What do you think about when you hear Day of the Dead?Daniel: I don't know. It's a bit scary, isn't it?Olga: Yeah, kind of but actually for us Mexicans it's not really scary. We're so used to it. Actually that day we celebrate the, not celebrate but remember the people who are already dead especially in our close family.Daniel: OK.Olga: We put an altar for them which is like a big table decorated with flowers, bread, coffee or whatever the person that is dead used to like and we think that on that day that person is going to come back from the dead.Daniel: Really?Olga: Yeah and visit us and maybe eat the food.Daniel: OK.Olga: It's on November first, the second too. The second, the altar is still there and after that we just take everything off and go on with our lives.Daniel: You keep the altar only on the first and the second?Olga: Yeah.Daniel: OK and do you do it just for your family or do you go and visit friends or other relatives?Olga: No, we only keep it within the family actually.Daniel: OK.Olga: Well sometimes we do it at school but still it's just like you know to keep the tradition but usually in the family.Daniel: OK.Olga: Well another holiday I can think about is Easter. You have Easter too in Chile?Daniel: Yes, we do have Easter.Olga: Easter we actually don't keep it traditional anymore.Daniel: What do you mean?Olga: You know traditionally we make plays where we represent Jesus and the moment when he died and everything right? But you know we don't reflect about it anymore. We just go on vacation to the beach and celebrate and you know go to concerts and stuff.Daniel: Just as Chilean people do.Olga: I guess it's kind of a trend now right?Daniel: Yeah. We don't really think a lot about Easter.Olga: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hi Olga, how are you?Olga: Fine, Daniel, how are you?Daniel: Good, thanks. I wanted to ask you something. I'm really interested about Mexican holidays.Olga: What?Daniel: Can you tell me something about it?Olga: Sure but what do you want to know? I mean why are you interested in Mexican holidays?Daniel: What kind of holidays you have, what do you do in those holidays?Olga: Well my favorite holiday is the DÌa de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead.Daniel: What is it?Olga: What do you think about when you hear Day of the Dead?Daniel: I don't know. It's a bit scary, isn't it?Olga: Yeah, kind of but actually for us Mexicans it's not really scary. We're so used to it. Actually that day we celebrate the, not celebrate but remember the people who are already dead especially in our close family.Daniel: OK.Olga: We put an altar for them which is like a big table decorated with flowers, bread, coffee or whatever the person that is dead used to like and we think that on that day that person is going to come back from the dead.Daniel: Really?Olga: Yeah and visit us and maybe eat the food.Daniel: OK.Olga: It's on November first, the second too. The second, the altar is still there and after that we just take everything off and go on with our lives.Daniel: You keep the altar only on the first and the second?Olga: Yeah.Daniel: OK and do you do it just for your family or do you go and visit friends or other relatives?Olga: No, we only keep it within the family actually.Daniel: OK.Olga: Well sometimes we do it at school but still it's just like you know to keep the tradition but usually in the family.Daniel: OK.Olga: Well another holiday I can think about is Easter. You have Easter too in Chile?Daniel: Yes, we do have Easter.Olga: Easter we actually don't keep it traditional anymore.Daniel: What do you mean?Olga: You know traditionally we make plays where we represent Jesus and the moment when he died and everything right? But you know we don't reflect about it anymore. We just go on vacation to the beach and celebrate and you know go to concerts and stuff.Daniel: Just as Chilean people do.Olga: I guess it's kind of a trend now right?Daniel: Yeah. We don't really think a lot about Easter.Olga: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hi Olga, how are you?Olga: Fine, Daniel, how are you?Daniel: Good, thanks. I wanted to ask you something. I'm really interested about Mexican holidays.Olga: What?Daniel: Can you tell me something about it?Olga: Sure but what do you want to know? I mean why are you interested in Mexican holidays?Daniel: What kind of holidays you have, what do you do in those holidays?Olga: Well my favorite holiday is the DÌa de los Muertos, the Day of the Dead.Daniel: What is it?Olga: What do you think about when you hear Day of the Dead?Daniel: I don't know. It's a bit scary, isn't it?Olga: Yeah, kind of but actually for us Mexicans it's not really scary. We're so used to it. Actually that day we celebrate the, not celebrate but remember the people who are already dead especially in our close family.Daniel: OK.Olga: We put an altar for them which is like a big table decorated with flowers, bread, coffee or whatever the person that is dead used to like and we think that on that day that person is going to come back from the dead.Daniel: Really?Olga: Yeah and visit us and maybe eat the food.Daniel: OK.Olga: It's on November first, the second too. The second, the altar is still there and after that we just take everything off and go on with our lives.Daniel: You keep the altar only on the first and the second?Olga: Yeah.Daniel: OK and do you do it just for your family or do you go and visit friends or other relatives?Olga: No, we only keep it within the family actually.Daniel: OK.Olga: Well sometimes we do it at school but still it's just like you know to keep the tradition but usually in the family.Daniel: OK.Olga: Well another holiday I can think about is Easter. You have Easter too in Chile?Daniel: Yes, we do have Easter.Olga: Easter we actually don't keep it traditional anymore.Daniel: What do you mean?Olga: You know traditionally we make plays where we represent Jesus and the moment when he died and everything right? But you know we don't reflect about it anymore. We just go on vacation to the beach and celebrate and you know go to concerts and stuff.Daniel: Just as Chilean people do.Olga: I guess it's kind of a trend now right?Daniel: Yeah. We don't really think a lot about Easter.Olga: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: The next place?Daniel: The next place would be well Santiago.Olga: I don't really look forward to going to Santiago. I would rather go to some other place.Daniel: OK then. Then if it's around like the center of the country, I would recommend you to go to Easter Island.Olga: Oh, I've heard about it. The place where they have those big statues, right?Daniel: Right. Do you know the names of them?Olga: Actually no.Daniel: OK. They're called Moai statues. Yes, and you can see them. If you take a plane from Santiago, it will take you around five hours and you can see the indigenous people. You can see the statues and if you're lucky you can stay in a house with an indigenous family.Olga: Actually those families, do they speak Spanish?Daniel: They do speak Spanish.Olga: That's great.Daniel: But they also speak their local language.Olga: Maybe I can learn.Daniel: Yeah. I think you can learn if you live like, if you stay with a family for a week.Olga: It is thoroughly different from Spanish, right?Daniel: It is. It's more close, it's more closer to the Polynesia.Olga: I see. That's great.Daniel: But it's really interesting and the island it's really beautiful and if you go in summer you can swim and it's going to be a really, really good time.Olga: It's not expensive to go there, right?Daniel: It's about five hundred dollars.Olga: It's OK. Yeah, I can manage.Daniel: You have to be careful though because the prices in the island are a bit more expensive than...Olga: Yeah, they do that sometimes in Mexico too. Yeah, touristic places.Daniel: Yeah. And if you want to go south, I can recommend you Patagonia.Olga: Yeah, I heard it's really hard to go there. Is it?Daniel: Well it's really hard to get there if you go on the Chilean part but if you go on the Argentinian part it's not that difficult.Olga: Then I think we want to go there too.Daniel: And it's beautiful because you have a lot of mountains, rivers, glaciers.Olga: It sounds so romantic too.Daniel: Yeah. It's good that you go with a boyfriend.Olga: Thank you. I'm looking forward to go there.Daniel: Good. If you need any other advice just let me know.Olga: Thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: The next place?Daniel: The next place would be well Santiago.Olga: I don't really look forward to going to Santiago. I would rather go to some other place.Daniel: OK then. Then if it's around like the center of the country, I would recommend you to go to Easter Island.Olga: Oh, I've heard about it. The place where they have those big statues, right?Daniel: Right. Do you know the names of them?Olga: Actually no.Daniel: OK. They're called Moai statues. Yes, and you can see them. If you take a plane from Santiago, it will take you around five hours and you can see the indigenous people. You can see the statues and if you're lucky you can stay in a house with an indigenous family.Olga: Actually those families, do they speak Spanish?Daniel: They do speak Spanish.Olga: That's great.Daniel: But they also speak their local language.Olga: Maybe I can learn.Daniel: Yeah. I think you can learn if you live like, if you stay with a family for a week.Olga: It is thoroughly different from Spanish, right?Daniel: It is. It's more close, it's more closer to the Polynesia.Olga: I see. That's great.Daniel: But it's really interesting and the island it's really beautiful and if you go in summer you can swim and it's going to be a really, really good time.Olga: It's not expensive to go there, right?Daniel: It's about five hundred dollars.Olga: It's OK. Yeah, I can manage.Daniel: You have to be careful though because the prices in the island are a bit more expensive than...Olga: Yeah, they do that sometimes in Mexico too. Yeah, touristic places.Daniel: Yeah. And if you want to go south, I can recommend you Patagonia.Olga: Yeah, I heard it's really hard to go there. Is it?Daniel: Well it's really hard to get there if you go on the Chilean part but if you go on the Argentinian part it's not that difficult.Olga: Then I think we want to go there too.Daniel: And it's beautiful because you have a lot of mountains, rivers, glaciers.Olga: It sounds so romantic too.Daniel: Yeah. It's good that you go with a boyfriend.Olga: Thank you. I'm looking forward to go there.Daniel: Good. If you need any other advice just let me know.Olga: Thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: The next place?Daniel: The next place would be well Santiago.Olga: I don't really look forward to going to Santiago. I would rather go to some other place.Daniel: OK then. Then if it's around like the center of the country, I would recommend you to go to Easter Island.Olga: Oh, I've heard about it. The place where they have those big statues, right?Daniel: Right. Do you know the names of them?Olga: Actually no.Daniel: OK. They're called Moai statues. Yes, and you can see them. If you take a plane from Santiago, it will take you around five hours and you can see the indigenous people. You can see the statues and if you're lucky you can stay in a house with an indigenous family.Olga: Actually those families, do they speak Spanish?Daniel: They do speak Spanish.Olga: That's great.Daniel: But they also speak their local language.Olga: Maybe I can learn.Daniel: Yeah. I think you can learn if you live like, if you stay with a family for a week.Olga: It is thoroughly different from Spanish, right?Daniel: It is. It's more close, it's more closer to the Polynesia.Olga: I see. That's great.Daniel: But it's really interesting and the island it's really beautiful and if you go in summer you can swim and it's going to be a really, really good time.Olga: It's not expensive to go there, right?Daniel: It's about five hundred dollars.Olga: It's OK. Yeah, I can manage.Daniel: You have to be careful though because the prices in the island are a bit more expensive than...Olga: Yeah, they do that sometimes in Mexico too. Yeah, touristic places.Daniel: Yeah. And if you want to go south, I can recommend you Patagonia.Olga: Yeah, I heard it's really hard to go there. Is it?Daniel: Well it's really hard to get there if you go on the Chilean part but if you go on the Argentinian part it's not that difficult.Olga: Then I think we want to go there too.Daniel: And it's beautiful because you have a lot of mountains, rivers, glaciers.Olga: It sounds so romantic too.Daniel: Yeah. It's good that you go with a boyfriend.Olga: Thank you. I'm looking forward to go there.Daniel: Good. If you need any other advice just let me know.Olga: Thank you.Daniel: You're welcome.

What’s your favorite part of home birth? For our guest today, Sofia, she shares how much she enjoyed the hands-on aspect. With the idea for home birth originally coming from her husband Daniel (You don’t hear this all the time, which is why we love this detail. Daniel’s first child from a previous relationship was born at home, so he suggested it to Sofia when they became pregnant.) Sofia shares her full birth story plus she shares some techniques and practices that she used herself during birth as well as with her clients in her business as a sexuality coach, specializing in postpartum and a Tantra practitioner. You’ll definitely want to listen to the end of the interview multiple times over to practice the breathing exercises she walks us through! Links: Sofia’s webpage for DIAH listeners: https://www.thehappyvaginaproject.com/doingit Our website: https://www.diahpodcast.com/ DIAH Shop: https://www.bonfire.com/store/diahpodcast/ Parents on Demand Network: https://parentsondemand.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/diahpodcast/ Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/diahpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1904721379788084/?ref=bookmarks

The COVID-19 craziness has caused people to stress out and scramble to work remotely. This crisis is pushing everything forward technologically. Why not hire a virtual assistant (VA) to scale your property management business? Today’s guest is Daniel Ramsey of MyOutDesk. Daniel is a real estate investor/broker who loves doing deals, and property management is a way to connect with others and create communities. But he also wants time to take a vacation with his family! You’ll Learn... [02:52] MyOutDesk: Property managers find talent to inexpensively scale their business. [04:05] MLS Porn: Scrolling through new investment properties on the market. [05:05] Remote Reality: In 2018, 5% of America worked remotely, now it’s 50%. [07:58] Work Culture: Maintain good team, quality interaction, and customer service; and reduce operational/overhead costs. [15:00] Steps to Scale: Assess business, compound leverage, develop plan, craft outcome, start interviewing, launch, and training.  [25:48] Match Values, Not Personalities: Define who you are as a person and company. [33:15] Go Remote Guide: Tips for working remotely with new technology. [35:08] Push vs. Pull Leadership: Communicate, don’t micromanage. [44:15] MyOutDesk Mission: VAs need to be indispensable and irreplaceable. [46:15] Pricing vs. Cash Crunch: Do you need help? Can you afford MyOutDesk? [53:52] Care ROI Concept: Emotion is what creates memories. Tweetables I had a need in my own real estate practice. I hired a virtual assistant. I was like, ‘Wow, this works.’ Leverage is compound interest and entrepreneurs’ biggest swing. When I hire somebody, I'm hiring them to grow my revenue. I'm hiring them to save money. I'm hiring them to own an entire process for my business. The biggest cure for the economy is businesses and entrepreneurs staying productive. Resources MyOutDesk Go Remote Guide (text MOD to 31996) MLS Mark Spain Bluefishing by Steve Sims Upwork OpenPotion DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today, we have a really cool guest. He is Daniel Ramsey, over at MyOutDesk. Daniel, welcome to the show. Daniel: Thanks for having me, Jason. I'm so glad to be here. Jason: Daniel and I were talking a little bit in the green room chatting up a little bit about what's going on. It's a little bit crazy right now, with COVID-19 and Coronavirus, and all this stuff, the real estate market looks scary. We may get into that a little bit in the show, but our topic today is using a virtual assistant to scale your property management business with MyOutDesk. Before we get into that, Daniel, what I want to hear about your background, your entrepreneurial journey and that should lead us right into the inception of MyOutDesk. Daniel: Yes, sure, man. I love the show. I'm really grateful to be here. I agree, I'm a real estate guy. I love doing deals and property management is just such a great way to connect and create community, and also, it's a great place for deal flow if you're a buyer and want long-term wealth. I love being here. I'm a real estate investor, myself, real estate broker, contractor, mortgage guy, developer, broker, this is my world. I love it. In fact, you'll love this story. My wife and I, we've got two little girls who will drive in the neighborhood and I'm like, "baby, baby, open house, I gotta go look at it," and she's like, "fine, just go." I'm a real estate guy, I love what I do. We help property managers basically find talent and inexpensively scale their business. The topic is timely. Our business was started because I had a need in my own real estate practice. I hired a virtual assistant. I was like, wow, this works. My wife and I went on our honeymoon, and as many entrepreneurs, I brought my laptop on my honeymoon. I'm in Guatemala in a rainforest, and I'm at the bar at like 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and the bartender in Spanish is making fun of me. He's basically saying things like dumb Gringo, his wife's here, beautiful woman just married, why is he still working? At that moment, I knew something had to shift in my world, and that's when we started to scale and really use leverage at a high level. Jason: I would imagine that most of our partners as entrepreneurs go through quite a bit, and they don't always appreciate us doing things like that. Daniel: My wife calls it MLS porn for me, because at night, I'm scrolling through all the new investment properties that came on the market. I'm really lucky to marry her, and she's understanding. But at the same time I wanted to stay married, and I wanted to have a kid, and a family, and I knew I needed leverage in my business. I wanted to be able to take a vacation. Jason: I'm sure you have kids at home right now. Daniel: That's right. Jason: Me too, it's crazy. One of them just came in to hand me an Xbox controller so I could give them access because I control that, crazy. I'm on air, they don't care. They're like, dad, this is important. Daniel: This is the deal. This is what we're in, and it's crazy timing because we have this call like a month ago, and we're in a crazy place. In 2018, 5% of America worked remotely, 5%. Last week, that number went to 50%, in one week. Jason: The rest are probably not even working. Daniel: Yeah. Here's the thing, as a company, one of the things that we've been doing is we've been remote for 13 years, 100%. We're about 1300 people. If you're listening right now, we figured out how to scale a business remotely with 1300 people, and serve clients like property managers, real estate brokers, investors, flippers, that's what we do. In the last couple of weeks, we've helped more companies just understand the tools required, what systems you have to put in place, how to communicate with your people when they're not physically in your office. We put together a whole like go remote guide that we're going to give away in the show, basically, just to help things like what you just said. We were just on a conference call with our largest client and his two and a half year old son just, hey, daddy, I need more Cheerios. This is just how it is now. Jason: Yeah, that is what it is. There's all these funny videos you'll see online where you've got like some guy on the news and his kid walks in, in a diaper, and then the wife's crawling on the floor because she thinks she's not on camera trying to pull it out, these things. The world we live in, we're fathers, we run companies, there are moms that run companies, and I don't think there's anything that needs to be hidden. It's not like there's something shameful that you have kids or that you have a personal life. For those that are watching this or listening, just own that. It's totally okay, everybody likes to see that you're a real person anyway, instead of just a suit and a tie stuck behind a desk all the time. It's a lot more relatable I would imagine. I've got four kids. I'm slightly insane, I think, and it's crazy, and they need to be quieter, hey guys be quieter. Daniel: That's awesome. Jason: I started my company Open Potion the corporation back in 2008 right around the time everything was falling apart then. I've just worked from home. I've been virtual, my team members are in Toronto, New York, wherever. We've got some in the Philippines. A while ago, there's always a stigma connected to those that were remote, especially if they were not in America. I think that we're going to see some crazy shifts that are going to be happening. One, every company that’s like, “We can’t have people working from home, how will we know that they're actually going to do work?” These things, these concerns, now you have to. If you want them to work, they're working from home. Your office is shut down, you're not doing business. Everybody's figuring out in this new environment, and they're scrambling. I'm sure companies like Zoom are just going to go gangbusters, but this is the new world that we live in. I think it's going to push everything forward technologically which is exciting, and it's going to cut out a lot of bullshit. All the fluff that was just bloated in companies is just eating up resources, like people are just going to realize after this why do we need this $20,000 a month office space for this big corporate building? All these things are going to be shifting, and we're going to have this new culture as a result of everybody being forced to stay indoors and work from home. I think that's going to open people up to the idea that, hey, I can have team members and they don't have to be right geographically near me. I can find the best that are anywhere, and find people that are lower costs, and figure this out. People are going to be a lot more open that have been closed to it before. I imagine this will be really good for companies like yours, to be able to help people out and help people see that you can still maintain a really good team, and quality interaction, and customer service, and you can lower your operational costs, or at least make a more healthy cash flowing business by reducing some of these overhead expenses that you have in the company. I was hanging out on a really great course with training over the last few days with a financial coach. One of the phrases, I don't know who said it but he made this joking comment that overhead walks on two legs. Basically saying people are the biggest piece of overhead a lot of times that we might have in a company. I want to point out, that was a really humble intro you gave, but in the written intro I have here you've got 10 years of experience serving more than 5000 clients, including over half of the real trends, top 10 Real Estate teams. Daniel: Right. Jason: Your company has already got a who's who list of clientele as far as real estate businesses go. Daniel: Yup. Jason: You've built real estates' number one staffing company, and it says you've worked with some of the top clients in the industry from sales organizations like the Mark Spain team to tech providers, like the Zillow Group, Keller Williams, and RE/MAX, and so you sound like you're a pretty cool connected guy as well. Daniel: Maybe connected. I don't know about cool, though. What we do, and I love this. We have a property manager who's in Austin, and I really love this guy. Jason: That's where I'm at. Daniel: Okay, cool. You guys are neighbors. He manages half a billion dollars of commercial real estate, and he's like one of these guys that's just freaking brilliant. I'm like, hey, what are you doing? He's like, I'm sitting with my son and looking at deals. He's middle age, and he's really had a lot of success, but he called us because he had four property managers, a bookkeeper, and an office manager. Five people running half a billion of real estate, and he's like, hey, my people are overworked. I'm worried that nobody's taking vacations. Everybody works on Saturdays and Sundays, and our systems aren't tight. Jason: Burnout is coming. Daniel: Exactly. They had a system that didn't have all the information in it. They had basic terms, but every lease is different. Some tenants are paying for maintaining their HVAC, some are not. He had all of these leases that nobody had actually put into the system. Every time somebody called and said my roof is leaking, he'd be like, okay, we'll call you back, and then they have to dig up the lease, and we have the lease and say, who do we call? Is it our responsibility, or is it their responsibility? Five hours later, they're responding to what could be a really big deal like damage everywhere for the tenants. We started working with him about two years ago, and we started helping him with SOPs, Standard Operating Procedures. We started helping them take their leases and get him into the system, which is any basic scale a business grows, a business scenario. We gave him a book like an AP, AR person, so now his really talented bookkeeper who's managed his whole financial world for his entire career has time in her day to think strategically, and save money for the company. What we did is all the property managers got in the system. We basically gave them somebody to run their system so that there was a person who could enter data and just make sure the system was clean. The bookkeeper got an assistant, and now all of a sudden he's poised for what are some phenomenal growth years that he's had in the last couple of years. It didn't change his world. It really didn't, because we're $21,000 a year for a full-time employee. If you think about that, half a billion dollars making all the rents, literally for almost $100,000 now he's not going to lose his team. That's our story. That's what we do for really big companies like Zillow, and all the way down to small investors who own 5 or 10 properties and just need somebody to help the day to day, keep things running. Jason: Let's get into how this process works. Let's take a typical listener of the show, they're probably maybe a property manager, entrepreneur. Maybe they've got about 200 to 400 doors that they're managing, largely single family residential. They might have a property manager by now or two. They've got maybe somebody having maintenance coordination, and everybody on their team is telling them that they're maxed out on time, because that's what always happens. Every team member is maxed out on time, and they feel like I can't afford to hire anybody right now. Every appointment back on time, and then they call you up. Let's go through the process here of what it would look like maybe for one of these clients to start a conversation and work with you. Daniel: Sure, Jason. I don't want this to be a commercial for us. What I want to do is if you're listening right now, like what the steps that I'm going to go through are the steps to determine how to scale your business. Even though these are our steps, you can actually write these things down and go through the step by step process. Whether you hire us or not, this is the process that we know works, because we've done it 5000 times. The first step is just really assess your business. We do a strategy call with all of our clients where we do a one on one video conference, just like you and I are right now on video, and we go through things like who's on your team, what are your systems. When I say systems, like where are you putting all the information? Do you have a voice phone system so that when people call, you can transfer that number around. A lot of property managers do but some actually don't, and you can imagine during this Coronavirus what happens if you're a property manager and you had regular phones tied to an office that you can't go to anymore. What do you do? We're looking at who's on your team. We're looking at what your systems are, what tech do you have right now to operate, and then we're looking at what your processes are. Talk to me about what happens when you have to turn a tenant over, talk to me about what happens when you put a property out to lease, what's the step by step process. Who owns that process, and so we'll go through those three things in our first strategy call and really identify what's your highest value leverage, and we have this process and I liked it. I love thinking like this. Leverage can be just like compound interest. You can have compound leverage, meaning you as the business owner, or your managers, or the people on your staff can offload some of the not very valuable process based day to day repetitive stuff that you just don't need to do, and then you get two or four hours back of your day, and then you can take those hours and help build your business, and then you get a compounding effect with leverage. That's the next step is what do we need to do to start taking advantage of compound leverage? If you or your team gave up some stuff, how would you then drive revenue for your business or increase your value for your customers? What would you do to really scale and grow if you got half your day back? Jason: You do the strategy call. You figure out team systems attack, you're going over their processes. You're identifying the highest value leverage, I think it's a cool idea of compound leverage. And then what would you do next? What would you recommend next? Daniel: It's developing your plan. From that guy that owns half a billion dollars in property to the person who's got 100 homes, every single person has opportunity. It's standard blocking and tackling in business. We're doing a needs analysis for you. We're saying, okay, what do you need to do now, or who do you need to hire on your team now? It's always been developed with the plan moving forward. Any company like ours who says, oh, we'll just hire somebody for you tomorrow, be scared. Just be scared, because as an entrepreneur, leverage is your biggest swing, it's where you can get the most value for your dollars, you really have to be strategic about it. Step two is what's my plan? What systems do I need in order to do this virtual thing like what we're talking about going remote? Who do I need? What do I need? What conversations need to happen for my internal team? What planning do I need to make? Let's create an outcome statement. You could call step three crafting an outcome. Another thing that's unique about our businesses is we don't do job descriptions, areas of responsibility. I don't say anything wrong, there's nothing wrong with that, but what we do is we create outcomes. For instance, when I hire somebody, I'm hiring them to grow my revenue, I'm hiring them to save money, I'm hiring them to own an entire process for my business. We will help you craft and create a plan that really adds value to your business, so that you're getting a 3 or 4 times return on the $21,000 that you're going to pay us. Jason: You're crafting an outcome, you've developed the plan. You've done the strategy call, you develop the plan. You've crafted this outcome, and then what's the next step? Daniel: At that point, we know exactly what you want to accomplish. As a company, what we'll do is we'll take that outcome, we'll craft a series of interviews with somebody who has experience doing that thing. One challenge that we have in the outsourcing virtual assistant world is you can go on Upwork and hire somebody from India for $3 an hour, and that's what most people think about when they think of outcomes, or outsourcing, or virtual assistants. The thing is we're a virtual professional company. We are very strategic, we hire people who've done it before, who've been there before, who have served that outcome in the past. If you need somebody to answer the phones and be a prospector for you, or handle like client calls or tenant calls. We're going to find somebody who they've been 10 years doing that. They may not be property management, but they've been 10 years on the phone handling concerns and being a support mechanism for businesses similar or very like yours. The next step is to get three to five people right in front of you, so you can interview them, and you can choose somebody who is a great cultural fit plus an expertise and experience. Jason: I love the idea because I think cultural fit is the most important piece to look at first. A lot of people, well, they're great for this job. They look great on paper, they know how to do this job, but if it's not a good cultural fit, and I find as an entrepreneur if you don't feel comfortable around them… There's a great book by a really cool guy called Steve Sims called Bluefishing, and he talks about it in it. He calls it The Chug Test. He's like, what I want to go chug a beer with this person, if the answer's no, like then there's a disconnect, there's a problem. He uses the chug test with clients and different things. I think on our team, it's really important that everybody on our team exists to lower our pressure and noise. They exist to help move the business forward towards our outcomes. If there's resistance there, or discomfort there, and you're adding more and more team members like that, you're building a business you don't even feel like being involved in. It's very important, I think, for us as entrepreneurs to be really conscious of how we feel around our team members. Daniel: I can tell you I've hired people before and you have it too. If you're listening right now, it's interesting because I think this is a mistake that we make as entrepreneurs, we either hire people that we really like, or we hire people who know the job, and have expertise or experience doing the job. The reality is you need both. You've got to enjoy them, or at least feel like there's a fit in who you are and what you think, but they also have to be an expert at what they do, or a professional in our world. I can always tell when I'm talking to somebody who understands growing and scaling a business because they say what you just said, Jason. I appreciate it. Jason: I'll add, I think one of the biggest mistakes I've seen entrepreneurs make in trying to grow, or scale their business, or hire in their team is that the biggest mistake we make is that we try to hire somebody like our self a lot of times. We have a natural rapport for people that are like us. In NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming, they teach if you mirror or communicate at the same pace of these sorts of things, then you can build artificial rapport, or build real rapport perhaps really quickly. But, the challenge is we also tend to have a blind spot and hire people that are like us. A lot of times, the people that we need to do a certain job, or not the entrepreneurial, visionary, cowboy personality type, or whatever personality type you are as an entrepreneur. You might need a different personality type for that role, and sometimes we're trying to get people like us, which we don't even want to do those things, and we're trying to put them into that role. We need to find people that love and enjoy doing that particular thing that we don't want to do. Somewhat, they need to be different from us, but we need to be able to have a relationship with them that feels comfortable and feels good and that we value. We enjoy being around them or having them on our team. Daniel: Some things I'm going to add because I'm a nerd. I love people, I love growing and scaling. I think there's another possibility which is when values match. If you're very clear about what your values are as a human and a business, then you can be with somebody who maybe doesn't match up with your personality, because you feel like you at least have that commonality and value. Jason: You guys trust them. Daniel: Yeah, exactly. One of our values as a family is we take care of our people. I teach my kids, we don't give up. I naturally gravitate to people who care about people, and who have a bit of grit. Defining who you are as a person and defining who you are as a company, and having those values can help you in selecting somebody who you may not love hanging out with, but there's a value match, and they have an expertise match. Things just jive as a company. Jason: I find that's one of the biggest flaws that I see in property management businesses, probably any business. As entrepreneurs go from the stage of solopreneur to building a team, they build a team around them but they're operating like a solopreneur. They're trying to micromanage them. They're viewing these people as people that are supposed to be extensions of them in some way, and instead of building a team around them, of people that are taking things off of their plate and their jobs to lower their pressure and noise, they're hiring people for jobs, people for roles they think the business needs instead of what they need. In order to hire a team and build a team around you that is what you need as an entrepreneur, there needs to be clear values. Those need to be defined. That's one of the foundational things we coach clients through is getting clear on their business, why we get entrepreneurs personal why, how those connect, creating, figuring out their core values. If they don't have that, they don't have culture. Culture comes from the entrepreneur, and it's the business that is supposed to exist to serve the entrepreneurs needs in some way, and it's also supposed to exist to solve a problem in the marketplace. If they have those things in alignment, it significantly affects their ability to close deals and create trust. That speeds up rapidly. If they don't have that, then not only are they having challenges with that, but they also have a team around them that they have to micromanage, that they always feel like they have to tell what to do, and that are not believers in them or in the business because they've never given them anything you believe in. Having a team of believers feels great. You feel like you're Iron Man. You feel like you've got the super suit, you've got all these people supporting you. We had an issue this morning, there was a client that had a product or something and they were frustrated or upset because they didn't do any of the work and they didn't get the results, obviously. They didn't do some things that needed to be done, didn't show up any calls, that didn't do anything. We want this client to get a result. One of my team members is brilliant at coaching and helping clients just feel the negative energy and transform it. He's just a brilliant coach in that, and he talked to this client for like 60 minutes. The client was like, okay, I'm excited to work with you guys, I'm not going to sue you now. My approach probably would have been a little bit more hardline and hard nosed. I've got another team member, and he deals with the clients directly. He's super diplomatic, and I'd be like just do it this way. But he's like, why don't we say it like this? I'm like, that's better. Our team members protect us. They protect the business, especially if they believe in you. You always feel like you're being supported. God, it is so stressful. It's worse having a team than being a solopreneur if you have a team that isn't there to believe in you, to support you, and lower your pressure and noise, it's worse. Daniel: Agreed. Agreed. Jason: You want to talk about the next step? You've got this outcome crafted. I love that idea because ultimately what matters is results, the outcome is what matters. A lot of people will hire just to fill a wall. They're like, "We need this." They think that's the outcome, we solved it, we got this person. The real outcome is them helping the business achieve a goal, achieve the outcome, that's involved. I like the idea of crafting outcomes. What's next? Daniel: You know what? I have to follow it up with the outcome. I want clarity for your audience around why we do that, it's really important. When you have a person coming into it and you give him a job, they could do a job and not get a result. Jason: Absolutely. Daniel: That's the challenge. When you craft an outcome and there's massive clarity between you and the employee about what the outcome is, how to do the job is well informed. It's like, "Look, we are going to need you to book X, Y, and Z so that the clients have this result." They're like, "Well, I booked it." Yeah, you booked it but the client didn't get this result. This is a challenge. Outcomes just align the interests of the entrepreneur business owner and the employee so that the coaching conversations and the interactions are super, super, clean. There is some responsibility on the entrepreneur because I can't say, "Look, I want to fly to Pluto one day. I'm going to hire you to help me do that." That's just not a possibility right now. We have a lot of clients here who are like, "I don't know how to do that. I need to hire somebody. Daniel, can your virtual professionals help me?" I'm like, "Absolutely not, we can't help you. You don't even know how to do it. How would we know if you don't know?" The military has this great concept, "You can't give one unless you have one." They don't promote from outside. You're not going to get a two star General who used to work at Coca-Cola, they're not just going to make him the general. They have a process of rising through the ranks because that experience is so important. When our clients say, "Hey, I want to try this thing out." We're like, "Hey, we can't help you because we're not a try-it-out company. We're a professional organization that helps entrepreneurs get time freedom in their life and high caliber leverage." We're not going to experiment something with you, we're not going to try to create the shift that's going to go to pluto. We just don't know how to do that. That's some clarity on the outcome. Our next step after an outcome, we start interviewing. Then, it just moves into the launch which is why we have the Go Remote gift for your audience which is really timely because 50% of the world is now working at home. How do you do that? What are some of the technologies? How do I communicate? Jason, you're going to love this one. You and I, we've been working remote for a while. Most people would be on a chat platform, "Hey, I got to go to the bathroom." Nobody wants to see that, but we're all humans. What do you say? In our Go Remote guide we're going to give out, you type ‘bio.be right back.’ It's just a little bit better to see that on a chat platform in your corporate office, maybe 100 people. We've got a lot of tips, tricks, what's the right etiquette, and all that. After you interview, which is about a launch, that's probably where all the magic happens—the first 90 days. Jason: Yeah. I just saw on Facebook, it went viral, that all these people are working from home now. People are doing Zoom meetings and stuff. Some lady in her team of 20 or 30 people on a Zoom call forgot that her camera and her mic was still active while she was going to the bathroom. She said, "I'll just go to the bathroom," and took things with her. How awkward would that be? They need to understand some basic etiquette dealing with this new technology. Daniel: Sure. The fun thing about it, we're all humans. We all have kids, we all go to the bathroom, we all need a lunch break, and the rules are different now working at home. If you find yourself as a manager or an employee, you have to hyper communicate now because nobody can see if you're actually working. If you find yourself as a leader, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt, and really communicate, communicate, communicate. This is a time unprecedented in history. Nobody can plan for needing to take your entire team remote in a matter of seven days. It just can't be planned for. Having a little bit of grace as a leader, and also increasing your communication for your employees as a leader is really super important right now. Jason: Yeah. One of my coaches, Al Sharpton, gave me the idea that the best way was push communication rather than pull in which as a leader, you don't have to go to hold them, stand over their shoulder, and ask them, "Hey, did you do this? Are you doing this? Where's this at?" That's pull communication. You're always trying to get things from them but you set up systems in which the system, they're reporting, submitting things, and providing the information to you so you'll feel comfortable, and you don't feel the need to micromanage them that way. Daniel: That's a great point. Part of our onboarding is helping people understand what a start of the day report looks like and the end of the day report looks like. Each of our folks, 1300-ish, 1200 or 1300 people, are doing a start of day report where they're like, "Hey, these are the seven things I'm going to accomplish today." And an end of the day report, "Hey, those seven things I knocked out five of the seven. I did three others and these two are pushed to the next day." Again, if you've got those communication systems well-oiled, one of the things because we've been virtual for so long, we have a tech platform where all of our virtual professionals enter their time. They start their day and they do their start of the day report in our system. At the end of the day, they report in our system. It keeps tabs and track of our virtual professionals so that we have a system of knowing, "Hey, they took a break." They enter into a system, "I'm taking my lunch break," or, "I'm taking my 15 minute break." We have a system that reports to our clients everything they do throughout the day. Our clients can login to that portal and just see it. We've been doing that because that's normal. Now, everybody's like, "Hey, how do I do that?" That's another example. You just have a start and end of day report so your managers and your people have a clear way of communicating what their day looks like. Jason: Yeah. That same coach I mentioned, I once asked, "How do you know if somebody in your team is a believer?" He just said, "They're getting their work done. You've got the outcomes and the things they're supposed to be doing. They're reporting that they're getting these things done. The performance is there and you're getting the results that you want. You don't have to micromanage them, you don't have to live in fear. They're getting things done.” That's ultimately what you want. You want to pay money, you want them to help you make more of it. You want them to get it done. Strategic call, development plan, crafting an outcome, interviewing, and you said launch. The launch is then setting, you've got these systems in place. For your clients, they can login, they can see what the team members are doing. Clarifying question. There's two types, I've noticed, of assistant companies or outsourcing companies where they're like, "Hey, we'll answer your phones and we've got 50-100 people here in a call center. Some random ones are going to answer the call." Or, you've got Raymond who's assigned to your phone and he's going to do this, he's going to do this job for you. Maybe you could help the listeners understand what MyOutDesk and this relationship looks like. Daniel: Yeah, make sense. The first example is for major corporations. Our business is designed for SMBs—Small and Medium Sized Businesses. We think of us like an extension of your business. You get to interview them, you get to onboard them. They report everyday to you. It's like, "Hey, Jason. I'm here. Daniel's here. I'm ready to login. I'm going to rock it. Do you need anything today? Here's my start of the day report." Every single day, they login. We typically do Monday to Friday. Some of our clients will have multiple schedules depending on coverage needs. LIke over the weekend, late night calls, or emergency phone numbers. Just think of us like an extension of your business. We're giving you leverage. We're a real estate staffing company that is specific to property managers, brokers, busters, mortgage companies. Our whole world is around helping you grow and scale. After the launch, it goes through training. Most entrepreneurs who ever hired somebody realizes that in the beginning, I liked this X. If you've been watching us on video right now, I'm doing an X. In the beginning, it's low value because they're brandnew to your business. They don't know your culture, they don't know your customers, they don't know your value proposition. There's just not a lot of value in the first two weeks. At some point, the value goes up. The amount of time you have to spend with somebody is high in the beginning because you need to tell them everything that's in your brain. That all of this tribal knowledge that you need to impart and give to them. You might already have it documented, you might not. The first 90 days is really teaching them how you want them to serve the business. Communicating, giving around like, "Hey, here's how to use our system. Here's the training platform. Here's all the team members. Here's all the systems you need to learn." The first 90 days, it's just getting them up to speed. After that, typically our clients are recording a 60% or 70% savings with the exact same result they were getting prior. It's pretty awesome. Jason: Now, these team members, is it hourly or are you dedicating a monthly? Fulltime? How does this tend to work? Daniel: There's a couple of things. We're different. Obviously, they're virtual professionals so they're working full time. We're a subscription based business. You pay us, we pay them. We also carry their healthcare, their vacation time, and all their benefits. Most companies, they're making a very razor thin margin. Honestly, 90% of what you guys pay us, what our clients pay us, actually goes to benefits for their virtual professionals—benefits, vacation, health plan, we do conferences. We have an entire support system, team, tech, and all that kind of craziness. The point is they're our people. We're helping you get up to speed so they can help you grow and scale your business. At some point, we all become a team. Meaning, the company is here to support the virtual assistant, support the client, and everybody wins. That's what I love about working here. I'm going to help people find jobs in the Philippines, that's where we operate. I get to help businesses scale and grow. It's like the coolest place to be especially because we’ve helped over 5000 clients. I’ve gotten to see growth plans, org charts, systems. It's just so exciting every day to see so many Small and Medium Sized Businesses really see under the hood—profitability, who's on your team, what are some of your struggles. It's just really awesome for me and my team because every day, we're just serving our community. Jason: Love it. What are some of the frequently asked questions that people have that maybe we haven't covered? That somebody might be asking during the process? Daniel: A lot of people are like, "What does my commitment look like? How long do I have to stay in contract?" I'm a real estate guy and very firmly believed in value. We don't lock our people into any long term contracts. Every two weeks, every single one of my clients is voting with their credit card, honestly. Imagine if your business, 100%, runs on adding value for others. That’s how our business works. One of the missions that we've embraced at a really high level is our virtual assistants or virtual professionals need to be indispensable to your business. That's the guiding light, it has been from the beginning. If they come in and they take things off of your plate, you have all this time freedom, all of these opportunities to crack, and grow your business, then we just created an indispensability, it is irreplaceable. That's our whole mission as a company. We're really excited. Jason: Very cool. Do we talk about pricing? What is it going to cost? Typically, I know that the people listening, that's the big question. They're like, "Can I afford this? Would this make sense for me?" Most of them are thinking, "I can barely afford the team I have now. Is this something I can do to get to that next level? Maybe this will help me bridge that gap." For example, in property management, what I call the first sandtrap is the property manager that's maybe broken about 50 doors, they broke that barrier there. They're between 50-100 doors, they can't break the 100-door barrier. They're operating as a solopreneur, they can't afford to hire their first team member. Their pricing is too low, they've taken on too many crappy properties to manage. They've got a lot of leaks. They're trying to figure out, "How do I get ahead?" They can change some of these other things but one of the things is, "I need another person." Maybe you can touch on that and give people an idea of what they should budget for and make this work. Daniel: Step one, three, or five, is 100% free. If you're listening right now and you're like, "I need support," or, "I need help," I just want you to jump on our website, myoutdesk.com. Just go and schedule a consultation, go through the process. Worst case scenario, we walk away as buds. We high five each other, say, "Congratulations," and we walk away. Best case scenario, we find a way to make it a win-win where you're getting time freedom back into your world and you're able to focus on growing and scaling your business. If you decide to move forward with us, I always like to say, "Look, it's $400 a week. It's $400 and some change." It's not a super expensive value proposition in our world. It's $1747 a month, all in—benefits, vacation time. Like an entire team supporting you. All the systems and processes that we’ve developed over the years will help you. This Go Remote guide we're going to give out is 12 pages and 5000 clients later worth of really good this-is-how-you-run-a-remote-team guide. We're going to give everything away for free because that's what we do. Including our time, energy, and effort. We were just on the news last week. We basically gave out consultations to help business leaders, C-suite people, and entrepreneurs figure out how to go remote. There's this bottleneck in California. Everybody got shelter in place. California went down, people were scrambling. We helped our insurance broker, we helped our attorneys. We were just helping people figure this out and give them some confidence in this. If you're listening right now and you think this might be an avenue, I would just encourage you to reach out because it costs you nothing but your time. You'll walk away with a lot of value. Jason: Another major issue right now is the cash crunch. Every business is feeling a cash crunch. Cash is just shortened, people are laying people off. Companies are furloughing people, their team members can collect their employment insurance. This is a painful time period. They're having to figure out how to cut expenses. Some businesses will not be the same after this. This might be another option if they're having to layoff staff and they're not able to fund or keep cash flow positive. The big challenge then is how do we keep some sort of level of service? How do we still deliver to our clients if we cannot afford that overhead anymore, and we need to lower the overhead. For those listening, that's what you need to do right now, to cash crunch, and solve that problem. If you can be healthy there, then you can get on some higher level problems to deal with like how do we keep the [...] economy or what not. You've got to solve the immediate cash crunch issue. That might be an SBA loan, that might be some of these things coming out. Maybe having a conversation with your team might help facilitate that. Daniel: We have a good friend of mine who owns a recruiting firm. One of her right hand women has a 1 year old and a 3 year old. They're all at home. She needs support now, not tomorrow, because she's contractually obligated to add value to her clients. If she doesn't, they have the opportunity to walk away and cancel. We're seeing a big uptake in people who are like, "Hey, we're having staffing issues right now. I'm not sure. We need support in X, Y, and Z.” We're happy to go through that process with somebody and say, "We can help you here," or, "No, this isn't what we specialize in but these people are your best option." There's a lot of companies like ours. There's lots of resources out there where the SBA thing, that's one of our free gifts in the Go Remote right now. When we give that away, we have a guide to getting the SBA disaster loan there. We have a guide for what's happening with the taxes right now. We have a guide for what you are saying to your clients right now in this weird, uncertain time. You can't say you want to buy or sell, this is an odd time to be a sales person but it's a great time to have conversations, ask questions, and connect people on a human to human basis. We put together a little guide for people in that space. We should give it away. What do you think, Jason? Jason: Let's do it. How do we get it? Daniel: All you have to do is text MOD—MyOutDesk—MOD to 31996. Anybody that wants it can go there. You'll get a link to our Go Remote stuff, all those free guides are down there. Here's the other thing, normally, you understand marketing, we date our content. Normally, we help people register and do a bunch of stuff so that we know who they are. Because of this disaster and because of everything that's happening in the world, when you text MOD to 31996, we're giving that stuff in a Word format. Meaning, you can take the Go Remote guide, put your logo on it, and give it away to your customers and clients. You can put your logo on our disaster recovery plan. We have a CEO mindset conversation. It's time to adapt your value proposition for your customers because we're in a new world right now. All that stuff is given away free because we're all in this together. The biggest cure for the economy right now is businesses and entrepreneurs staying productive. Jason: Right. I'm texting it right now so I can check it out. It's 31996 and I just do MOD. Daniel: That's right. I can't wait to see Jason from across my phone. It's going to be awesome. There we go. Boom! "MyOutDesk is your partner in going remote!" That's exactly it, brother. Right there. Here's the thing, we were on TV. I think it's an important message. I think we can wrap it up with your audience with this one thing. As entrepreneurs, as business leaders, it is our job to stay productive. It's our civic duty right now. Our economy is going to be challenged. The people at the bottom who have the normal middle class jobs, they're going to go through pain. As a leader in my community, my job is to help everybody I can stay as productive as possible. That's what's going to shift, that's what's going to change this world. That's why we put together a guide. That's why we're giving it up free. I hope it's valuable to you guys, your audience, and Jason—even you guys. Jason: Awesome. I just did a training just last week. Property management and property managers are going to be even more critical during this time than ever before. This is an opportunity for property managers to plant seeds for the future. I taught a concept called Care ROI. Right now may not be the time to focus on financial ROI but Care ROI will lead to that in the future as things shift. In turn, people will remember. Because emotions are heightened right now, anything that we do, and it actually takes a communication that we do as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, will be magnified times 10 in the mind of our customers or consumers because emotion is what creates memory. It's the difference between what you were doing the day before 9/11 or the day on 9/11. People's memories are very different because of the emotions attached. Right now, you have the opportunity to get a 10x ROI on positive things that you do out to your customers, to your audience, and your potential clients. That is massive.  Everyone listening, make sure you checkout the training that I did and leverage that Care ROI. I want to thank you for coming on and doing this even though it's crazy right now. I honor you for putting out this awesome guide to help people out. That's awesome. I look forward to having some more conversations with you in the future, Daniel. Daniel: Jason, thanks for your time, man. We really appreciate you today. Jason: I'll say one more thing, Everybody, businesses exist to solve a problem. That's why businesses exist. If the business is not solving a problem, it's taking people's money and not delivering results. There's no higher purpose or cause that entrepreneurs can do right now than to solve people's problems and to also make money. Making money helps you help the economy, it helps everybody. It helps you help your team. Find ways to help people solve their problems and to make money. I don't think there's anything wrong. Some people try to guilt and shame right now. They're the people that are just taking from the system, don't worry about them. The other thing I'll point out is if you're an entrepreneur, you don't like your business, you've been looking for your out. You're an entrepreneur, this is your perfect out. This is the perfect opportunity to choose out of your business and just not do it anymore. You have the perfect excuse. For the rest of us that are driven, that we’re passionate about what we do, if you are a property management entrepreneur, you're still wanting to grow, still wanting to be part of the community, check us out at doorgrowclub.com. Get inside our Facebook group community there. There's lots of helpful things going around, property management trying to solve problems for each other, and figure out what to do with things. Make sure to have a conversation with us at DoorGrow. Our goal right now is to plant those Care seeds, ROI as well, and help you out in any way that we can. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Daniel, thanks again for coming and hanging out. Daniel: It's been my pleasure. Jason: All right. We'll let you go. Everyone check out his website. It is myoutdesk.com. Make sure to do the text message thing. Until next time, everybody. To our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. 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In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

Part 2-2: How Understanding My Husband’s Pornography Consumption Led to Healthy Dialogue and HealingLeanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.**Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**Transcript:0:00:04 VO: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:23 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. I'm really excited today. We get to have Leanne back on with us. We get to explore some of the topic set we addressed in the previous podcast in a little bit more depth and I'm excited and thankful that you Leanne are willing to come back on and explore these topics further with us. There is a lot of excitement with people who listen to your podcast and we're just craving more and this is a very private and very vulnerable experience for you, so I really appreciate you coming on and being willing to explore some of these topics in depth. There's clearly a need and it's moved a lot of people to hear your story. So, let's turn it over to you. Where do you wanna start? What do you feel from the people who've listened to your podcast and the comments that have been made? Where do you feel it's important to start?0:01:19 Leanne: Well, first off, thank you for having me back. I'm excited to be back on here and like you say, to go over more in-depth of my journey and how I got to where I am today, but basically I just wanna start off with my struggles, like what my struggles were with my sexuality and what was holding me back for years and years. I struggled for probably... We were married for 31 years and I probably struggled for 25 of those years, overcoming some hurdles and issues that I had in order to be able to step into my sexuality. So, basically, that's just what I wanna share with everyone today is how I overcame. What those struggles were and how I worked through them, how I overcame them, how I was able to think differently. I think so often when we try to improve our sexuality, like we come to it from... Sex, like we try to... What sex acts can improve my sexuality, what things can I be doing in the bedroom to make me like it more. And I think too often we're just chasing after sex acts when really, especially for women, our biggest sex organ truly is our brain.0:02:42 Leanne: And one of the things I learned... Just what I've heard about, I haven't read any of her books, Emily Nagoski. I've never read any of her books but I've heard people explain about her brakes and accelerators and I realized that for years and years as... 'Cause I wanted to want sex, I wanted to like sex. I did have that desire, all through the years of my marriage, I just could not figure out how to get there. And so, I would try different things over the years but what I realized with brakes and accelerators was even though I was trying to push on the gas and go forward and figure it out, I was standing on the brakes. I had so many issues piled up that I just didn't have my foot on the brake, I was standing hard on the brake. And so that was preventing me to make any forward movement at all in the area of intimacy, does that make sense?0:03:38 Daniel: It does and for those who aren't familiar with Emily's book it's "Come as You Are", great book, very very insightful, gets into exactly what you're talking about, the science and the process our brains go through in experiencing sexual arousal. Tell us a little bit more though. What do you mean you're standing on the brake? What did that look like for you? What were you doing or not doing?0:04:01 Leanne: For me, standing on the brakes, I guess, meant for me just any time I would try to make any forward progress in my marriage. One of the issues that I want... I'll talk. Some of these issues that were holding me back, they would just come forward to the surface and then I would be slamming on that brake again. And so, yeah, I guess going forward, talking here, we'll just start talking about some of those things that kept me with my foot on the brake.0:04:27 Daniel: Yeah, let's start by that.0:04:29 Leanne: Okay, so first off, when I finally decided that I really wanted to start working on my sexuality, one day I came across a little meme on Facebook and it broke down the word intimacy and I'm sure people have seen this before, but it broke it down to me saying, "Into me see". And I break it down to "into me you see." And what that means to me is, for me, the goal in marriage is to have a desire to know your partner on a very deep level and then to also allow your partner to know you on that very deep level. And for me that means knowing your partner's heart, their mind, their spirit, their body, and then letting them also know your heart, your mind, your spirit, your body. And so I really wanted that, that was the goal of me being able to work on my sexuality, was I wanted all of that, I wanted all that intimacy had to offer, and so that was the driving force that moved me forward to really working on my sexuality. But first, the first thing I think that I had to figure out was in order to be intimate on a sexual level, and to have true intimacy in a marriage, you really need to work on all the levels of intimacy in your marriage, and that means working on the psychological intimacy in your marriage which means honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment. I feel like that is the foundation to your marriage, is those four things; honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment.0:06:09 Leanne: And then the other areas are verbal, emotional, intellectual, spiritual, physical, and then I've also added recreational. But in order to really be able to work on that physical level, the other levels had to also be being worked on. It's not just enough to say, "I want a wonderful intimate life, intimate sexual life." I feel like it was important in my marriage to work on all the levels. And once my husband and I started to work on all those levels of intimacy within our marriage, then it was easier to work on the physical intimacy part. I think so often we hear that women are more emotional and for me that's definitely true. And so I had to feel like things were being worked on outside of the bedroom in order for me to also be working on things inside of the bedroom.0:06:57 Daniel: Before we get there and maybe you're gonna address this, but what did you have to do yourself? In the previous podcast and online you've talked a lot about how you have to face your own trauma, you have to face your own hold-ups around this before you can engage and improve your relationship together. That's a very difficult place for people who especially have experienced trauma and mental health issues around intimacy. How did you get there? What did you do to... We already discovered in the previous podcast that you do have a level of insight that I think is a little higher than most people, but regardless, what did you do to recognize, "Okay, I need to address this, this is my issue that I need to overcome." And what steps did you take?0:07:50 Leanne: I honestly think the thing that really hit me the hardest when I started to really face myself was one day I was... It was the very, very first podcast that I listened to from Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and I can't even remember where... I know it was some LDS site, like LDS Living or something and I've tried to find it and I haven't been able to just find it since, but she talks in that podcast about... We really need to bring our very best self to our partners every day. Like, we need to take a good long look at ourselves and ask ourselves, would we wanna be married to ourselves? "Would I wanna be married to someone like me?" And when I really started to look hard at myself and answer that question, the answer was no. I would not wanna be married to me, I was not nice because of some of the anxieties that I faced, I gave myself permission to act badly towards my husband either in coming from a place of I'm trying to protect myself or then also coming through a place of excusing my anxieties and saying, "I can't help it. This is just how I soothe myself, it's how I soothe my anxieties, is to control everything that's around me."0:09:09 Leanne: And so, it really hit me hard when I listened to that podcast when she said, "We, we need to bring our best self to our spouse, every day." And I feel like my husband, for the most part, did bring his best self to me every day. He is so kind and very caring and very patient. And I realized that I wasn't giving the same.0:09:32 Daniel: Was there a point, and maybe I'm making some assumptions here, that you viewed him as the broken one with the issues around pornography and maybe his behavior in the bedroom? Did you view him as the broken one and then have this epiphany like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm the one who's struggling here."0:09:49 Leanne: It doesn't really played a role, it played a role in the bedroom, it played a role just because I had my foot so hard on the brakes that I... "He's just using my body because of what he's seen."0:10:03 Daniel: Yes, exactly, thank you for clarifying. And that's what I was alluding to.0:10:07 Leanne: Yeah, so some of the struggles within the actual sexual realm of things, I could blame some of them on him but I also knew what was going on in my own head, surrounding some of the struggles that I had, and so then I just realized I needed to work on 'em.0:10:32 Daniel: Yeah, again, so you had that level of insight where you were able to acknowledge, and I think for the most part, most people are like that. Specifically women. I think there is that level, "Okay, I know there's an issue here with me too, but the pain and the difficulties in the relationship make it difficult to focus on that inward self because you see other problems in the relationship that you want to address or think are bigger and contributing to that, in this case maybe the pornography, it's tempting to say, "My husband's behavior is what's triggering me and until he fixes it, I can't fix myself." But you're seeing that or at least at this point you're saying, "No, I gotta address myself too."0:11:17 Leanne: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I knew it was part of it, but I knew it was definitely not all of it, so I finally had to just face myself, "I need to figure this out." So then some of the things that I struggled with, like the first one being "the good girl syndrome" and I talked about that the other day. I think it's so hard, and not in just LDS relationships, but also I've heard lately more just in Christian relationships, in religions that really stifle sexuality or have such a strong belief around waiting 'til you're married. So, we get this message growing up that it's a bad thing like, "We don't do this, it's bad." And then all of a sudden when you're married, it's okay, it's fine now. It's really, really hard to change gears for a lot of women, and not just women, but for some men too, it's really hard to all of a sudden think it's okay. So, I had to get over that good girl syndrome and just really come to embrace the fact that I was created to be a sexual being as well as a emotional, and intellectual, and spiritual being, I was also created to be a sexual being.0:12:28 Leanne: And, I think, so often growing up and nobody talking to us when we're teenagers of how to embrace our sexuality we try to repress it. And the other thing I struggled with and I talked about this on the last podcast, was I struggled to be sexual and spiritual within the same body, that didn't make sense to me of how to marry the two. And so the danger is in that though was I was completely shutting down my sexuality because I thought that my spiritual self should learn how to control the physical self. And by doing that it's like you're cutting off your arm, like when you shut down, you're shutting down a part of who you are and it's...0:13:12 Daniel: Let me pause you right there for a second 'cause that's I think an important statement there, and I wanna make sure that the listeners understand what you just said. Tell us a little bit more about what it means, or at least what your paradigm was at the time that you're thinking the spiritual self should, would you say control my sexual behavior or my sexual desire, and you couldn't marry 'em together, what were you... Tell us a little bit more about what that meant to you at the time?0:13:39 Leanne: I feel like it meant that if I... We hear that about our carnal selves and that we need to learn, control our carnal selves, and the natural man is an enemy to God. And so I think I was equating that my sexual part of myself was carnal, it was dirty, it was naughty, it was wanting things that it shouldn't want, and so...0:14:06 Daniel: And that's why you were shutting it down, is...0:14:09 Leanne: Mm-hmm.0:14:10 Daniel: The experience you're having spiritually, so what was that? Did you feel like it was the spirit telling that this was inappropriate, that this was dirty, this shouldn't be pursued? And if you did, how do you view that insight now? Do you still look at that and say, "Yes, that was a spirit telling me that?" Or how do you reconcile that now?0:14:31 Leanne: No, I don't believe that was the spirit at all. I think that was fear, I think it was fear, I think it was guilt, it was shame, it was those. It was those feelings. They were very negative and I don't think that's how the spirit works.0:14:45 Daniel: Yeah, and it's interesting though, because this is not the first time I've heard this. And I've had many, many people come in and say, "This isn't right, the spirit's telling me it isn't." But typically, and who am I? I can't tell somebody that they're not feeling the Spirit, but this is usually what I'm discovering, is it's fear. How would you guide people who are trying to sort that out to distinguish between the Spirit and the fear or guilt that they're feeling around it, and why are they confusing the two? Kind of a bunch of questions there, but I guess, how would somebody distinguish that? What did you do to identify that really wasn't the spirit, that was actually fear and guilt?0:15:33 Leanne: When I finally decided that I was gonna work on my sexuality and really open up my perceptions, and my thinking around it, and just become more open in my thinking, very quickly when I started to work on things with my husband there was a difference. Our relationship just grew so quickly, whereas before there was just... It was a hindrance to our relationship, progress was not being made. The guilt was there that I should not feel that way towards my husband, it's a beautiful thing and if there's guilt for even trying to become closer, I mean that's not right. That's not what our heavenly father wants for us, He wants us to be close, very, very close in that relationship. And so, once I just decided, "I'm not gonna feel these feelings of guilt anymore. I'm not gonna allow them into my mind," and started to work on things with my husband, very, very quickly things moved along at a really beautiful pace, really beautiful, wonderful things were happening within my marriage.0:16:51 Daniel: Are you willing or comfortable with sharing any details, experiences around that?0:16:58 Leanne: Well one thing, and I kinda have details interwoven when I talk about some of my struggles. So there's the one struggle that I had of giving and receiving. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife talks about this a lot. Truly being able to receive from your partner and you truly being able to give to your partner. I think, so often as women, we have a hard time receiving because we're always on the giving and the serving end of the doing and the taking care of kids, we have a really hard time receiving sometimes. And so the very first time that I had really learned how to calm my anxieties down in the bedroom, and there was one particular time when we were being intimate, and I for the first time ever I felt on a very deep level of how much my husband was giving to me, like giving his whole self to me, his heart, his spirit, his mind, his body, and I just had tears just streaming down my face because I felt like his goodness was pouring into me, and afterwards I was like, "I felt that. I felt your generosity towards me. I felt your love and your goodness," and he said, "I've been trying to love you that way for 27 years but you shut me down."0:18:25 Leanne: I was just stuck in a place of, my mind was just so closed because of the guilt that I couldn't even open up to begin to accept what he was trying to offer me through his sexuality.0:18:36 Daniel: What an amazing experience. He was able to tell you that in those words is, "You're were shutting me down?"0:18:42 Leanne: Mm-hmm. Yup.0:18:43 Daniel: It sounds like maybe you were ready and a place to hear that. I don't know, if I recommend every husband say that to their to their spouse, but...0:18:52 Leanne: I definitely, yes, I definitely was in a place to hear that.0:18:55 Daniel: That's wonderful, and you were recognizing how much love he was giving to you. So it sounds like you were ready to hear that. What a wonderful experience.0:19:02 Leanne: And the other thing on that other end, so then the giving part, I think, that something that can become problematic and it was for me, is we...0:19:13 Leanne: Dr. Jennifer, she talks about this and she got this idea from David Schnarch. And it's where we want to belong to ourselves, like the desire to belong to ourselves is even stronger than the desire to receive sexual pleasure. And so, if we as women or anybody if you don't step into your sexuality and really embrace it and own it and want to share it with another person, then you're constantly gonna be feeling like your partner is taking it from you, 'cause you're not freely giving it and so you're gonna... Over time, I became very resentful because I felt like my husband was constantly taking from me and when I really stepped into my sexuality and had the strong desire to share it with my husband, it made all the difference in the world for me, I never feel like he's taking from me anymore 'cause I've owned it, I've owned that sexuality, it is mine, and it's mine to share. So those feelings completely went away. And so the resentful feelings went away, all that went away because my sexuality now belongs to me.0:20:17 Daniel: If you don't mind, I wanna emphasize that point that is so, so critical in the process. And I love how you describe it when you're rejecting your spouse, you're setting him up for failure and you're gonna always feel like he's taking something away from you or burdening you. And I see that dynamic over and over and over again, where the spouse, the wife in this case, will set certain expectations, until those expectations are met there's no physical intimacy, whatever those expectations may be, and it sets the partner up for failure because you can't ever really live up to those expectations. Whatever they be, you may be able to do it, but then it becomes a checklist and it's anything but intimate. And that creates that cycle downward that spiral downward because, so well said, because it feels like now it becomes this exchange of tasks and a burden, it does not create the intimacy. So that is so hard to break, but then what's reinforcing it is we're thinking, "Well, we're having this negative experience in our sexual dynamic relationship because he isn't doing his part." It becomes very deflective, and so being able to look at this and say, "Open up to it." And then it's connecting, it's beautiful.0:21:39 Daniel: And then you have these experiences. Now, not everybody's gonna have this, there's... In fact, I'm very curious, I would love to know at least your perspective what your husband was going through? He's been... He was giving and giving and giving for 27 years. That's endurance in... I would have to say, I know very few men who are able to maintain that level of giving for so long without becoming resentful, lost in their own sexuality. What do you think, if your husband wouldn't mind you sharing, what he was able to do to embrace that and continue patiently giving? And I'm not assuming he never had an issue of maybe resentment or hurt feelings. We're human beings, right? What do you think allowed him to continue to be loving and patient over almost three decades?0:22:33 Leanne: It makes me a little weepy. He just had a very, very strong love for me. So it sounds like cheesy in a way to be like, "It's because he loves me, that's why he was able to endure it all." But that really was it, he was so in love with me, and that's not to say that there weren't hard times, there were times when things were rough and he would weep and he would say, "You hurt me deeply, you're not nice, and you hurt me deeply." But it was because he loved me so immensely that he endured it, and then also when he prayed to know whether he should marry me or not the answer that he got was yes and take care of her. And he understood how broken I was from the trauma that I received as a child and a teenager. He understood that he knew how broken I was and I think also he knew I was trying. I did want to want it and I expressed that often. It's not that I was the type of person that I was like, "I hate it, don't talk to me about it. I don't want anything to do with it." I wasn't that type of a person, I was the type of person that I would longing to want it, I just didn't know how to get there. And so he was very patient with me all those years and he just loved me through it and felt like he made that promise to my father that he would take care of me.0:24:07 Daniel: What would you say to men who... I think there's a lot of men who have the level of love that your husband has for you, but the years have taken such a toll on them in their relationship and they're experiencing this, their wife not wanting you can't even bring up sex anymore, you can't talk about it. It's become very isolating even to suggest therapy or some sort of intervention around sex is just yet another manipulation or selfish desire to have more sex. What are your thoughts around encouraging those husbands to support their wives who are disconnected from this? Who aren't having that level of insight and they're starting experience that bitterness, any thoughts? They're not losing the love but they're they're lost themselves. It's been such a lonely experience that they don't know what to do. Do you recommend how husbands can support their wives and helping them understand their sexuality better?0:25:06 Leanne: That's a situation that really breaks my heart and I wish I could sit down with those wives and have a conversation with them because I feel like in a marriage where the wives have completely set down is a very difficult place to be for men. And my heart really aches for them.0:25:26 Leanne: I know that I've listened to a couple of podcasts by Jennifer Finlayson's life. Where she addresses that. And she talks about how a husband needs to sit down with his wife and say, "This is not okay for me, I need to feel loved in this way. And we have created this dynamic within our marriage to where we won't even talk about it and that's just not okay for me anymore. I'm suffering and our marriage is suffering and I believe you're suffering as well. And something needs to change." I'm not an expert to speak on that. But I feel like from things I've heard from Jennifer, she is an expert and has helped in that area. She talks a lot about how we each collude in the kind of marriage that we have. And I think that oftentimes in a marriage if we're not speaking up, in a loving way, and just kind of claiming what our desires are and what our needs are, if we're not speaking up about those then we are colluding in the type of marriage that we are creating.0:26:28 Daniel: I like that idea in what you're saying there. First of all, I think what you're saying is very helpful. I think a lot of women appreciate hearing that. That you feel sad that they're in those difficult, difficult places, where they don't even... To even think about sex, would just drain them and frustrate them. And somehow getting out of that.0:26:50 Daniel: But what I also liked is, how to have that discussion. I think there's so much shame for men. There's this, I don't know if it's completely acceptable. But it tends to be more acceptable to not want to have sex and so when the higher desire partner wants to have better sex or more connecting sex, it's viewed as selfish, carnal. And so the man and the relationship is experiencing these feelings of guilt, embarrassment. Yes, I wanna have more sex, I wanna have this type of sex. And so they're shutting themselves down, before they even have that conversation with their wife. But I like how you said that when you can frame it, put all other frustrations aside.0:27:32 Daniel: A lot of times this conversation happens in connection to so many things kids, busy life, stresses and then we throw in, "Well we're not even having sex anymore." or "That's all you want." But to be able to have that dedicated conversation and say, "Sweetheart, I love you and I want this area of our life to be better." and I keep it within that context, I think, can set each other up for success and to be able to address those issues better. I really like that insight there.0:28:01 Leanne: And the reason why I wish I could sit down and talk to the wives is, I think we as wives, really don't understand how that oftentimes, not in every marriage, but statistically are more regularly that a husband, the way he gives love and receives love is through physical intimacy. He feels it on a very deep level. And we as wives do not understand that. I think society has conditioned us to believe that men are just sex pots and that's all they want is sex. They just wanna use women's bodies to get their own physical pleasure and I don't think that's true at all. I mean, it can be true for some people, that they're selfish and they use their sexuality in selfish ways. But I really believe for the most part that men, that's how they are wired, is to love deeply and give love deeply, to feel love deeply and give love deeply through their sexuality.0:29:01 Leanne: And when I grew to really understand that, that's what changed for me. A big thing in the bedroom like that night when I felt the goodness coming from him, it's because I wasn't just being like yes my husband is having sex with me. I felt on a deep level what he was offering to me from every fiber of his being. When you can receive that as a woman, it is amazing and beautiful. And so I wish women could understand it and calm down their anxiety surrounding their husband sexuality and stop putting a label on what it is that they're wanting from... And open up their heart to the fact that your husband just wants to really love you deeply. That helped for me a lot.0:29:45 Daniel: I love this so much because one of my mentors in this field has often said, "Who is your sexual role model?" And I think that's one of the biggest obstacles that we face both men and women in relationships is, you're doing something tremendous for women right now, you're providing, whether you like it or not, you're providing a healthy role model, and the journey you took to get there. It's one thing to hear you can have an amazing sex life, but what does that really mean when all your definition right now is around sex, your sexual relationship is shame, pain and bearable at times. What is it to even mean when we say a thriving healthy sex life?0:30:30 Daniel: I think, a lot of people think... Oh, just more sex. They don't understand what you're actually saying here is a beautiful, profound connection. Which is exactly what they're desiring and is being hindered because they can't see that. But the same thing for men, and unfortunately I think a lot of men get into this place that thinking just like women, sex is bad, but yet they have these urges and desires, and they don't know how to manage them. And then they start to view them cells in the way that they've been told to view themselves.0:31:02 Daniel: It's bad, it's dirty, they take on that definition so they don't even engage in the conversation. And I'll tell you from personal experience because we don't have sexual role models and we don't understand what healthy sex looks like. Which is a variety of experiences, based on couples personalities, cultures and their relationship with the Lord. I didn't know what I wanted. And so it was a frustrating conversation to have, because even though my wife was willing to listen and not just willing, but embracing it. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what I, I think I knew what I wanted in a relationship, in a sexual relationship. But then I had to come to the understanding to be able to explain, you know what, this is what I'm curious about, I'm wondering if this will work well for me.0:31:49 Daniel: And for you, let's reevaluate because I think we finally have this big conversation, this vulnerable conversation where you're now in a place to have that conversation and your husband is, "What do I say? I just want better sex. And this is how I think we're gonna get there and then we hold to that." It's like, "You don't want that? Well, you know what? I just discovered what I wanted in the relationship was to be able to explore that with you. It really had little to do with the actual physical act but now I feel safe." I could tell you, I'm really curious about this and I'm wondering if this will help in our relationship and not be shut down or viewed as selfish or promiscuous or dirty. I know in my personal experience that allowed me to at least redefine what a sexual relationship looked like because I really didn't know, I had no idea. And where do you begin with that? Even when your wife is willing to have that discussion, I think it's a daunting and scary experience but allowing yourself to reevaluate, come back and discuss, and I think that's been the most bonding opportunities with my wife is just being able to feel like we can openly discuss it. What's your experience around that? Or does that resonate with you?0:33:03 Leanne: Yeah, when I was starting to work through all these, all the things that like the breaks that I had on, like the Good Girl Syndrome, marrying of the spiritual and sexual and just all that. When I was really starting to work through those and be able to push each one aside as I work through. We started practicing, we had sex every day, every single day for probably about six weeks and it really was a learning, and a growing, and a discovery time for the two of us. Just like what does this look like? What does this sexual relationship between the two of us? What's it gonna look like? And so, we practiced and try things and for six weeks, every single day, and it was a great learning experience for both of us, where we both felt free to express our desires and discover each other in a sexual way.0:34:03 Daniel: What made you think of that? I mean was that just something that you randomly thought of says, "Hey, let's do this every day for six weeks and see what happens." Or where did you get that idea from?0:34:13 Leanne: We just started practicing and it just happened. [chuckle] It is not, but that's okay. And it's funny and I have to say this. So, just recently in general conference the one man gave the talk about reading the Scripture and suddenly he's like, "Every day, every day, every day." And my husband and I left because when we were practicing, when we would start again my husband was like joking he got, "Every day, every day, every day." And so that just made us laugh so much when it came up on general conference and we looked at each other 'cause it's just kind of something cute that you would say to me as we were practicing, but we never like said, "Here's the timeframe, we're gonna do this for six weeks. Is just happened that I think we were just both excited that we were working on it, that we were discovering each other, it was exciting for us.0:35:05 Daniel: You took away in that strategy, if we called this pursuer and avoider dynamic where he's pursuing and you're avoiding and you created as a both come together, you're treating each other as equals. I think that's crucial, I think there's this... As we engage into this discovery mode, we pay a little bit more tension like you've been cautioning people to do, to put aside your fears, but there's still that fear there that they want to respect and they don't jump in like that. And I think that's really important, I think we're preparing a little too much emotionally to go into sex and instead view it as, "Let's learn, let's try this, let's schedule it, let's at least plan for it in some way and make it a mutual goal." And that eliminates a lack of predictability, right now, at least at that point in your relationship, what I'm hearing is there's so much unpredictability and there's so much harder and discovery that need to happen that you didn't wanna give heed to that ambiguity anymore. You said, "Let's do this every day. Let's create some predictability, let's be a team on this and come together." Am I hearing you right?0:36:16 Leanne: Mm-hmm. And one thing I wanna say too about that pursuer and... I, a couple of years before that, one thing that we did that helps us transition then 'cause like I said I did want to want sex. I did try different things throughout our marriage to figure things out. But one thing that was helpful for me is Laura Brotherson does talk about how sometimes husbands and wives can create anxiety within each other and by the husband-wife, she calls it the Hungry Dog Syndrome where the husband like it's been a while since he's had sex and he wants it, and he's requesting it and his wife doesn't want it, and so we're creating this hungry dog, she calls it syndrome, where he's chasing after her and looking for any cues that she's throwing him that he might get lucky that night.0:37:09 Daniel: Oh, yeah.0:37:10 Leanne: And he gets irritable and cranky because he's not getting his need's man and he's not being able to be close to his wife in the way that he wants, and so he gets cranky but the more he pursues her and chases after her, the more anxiety is created in her and so she is the avoiding wife, she will avoid touch, she will avoid flirting, she'll avoid any flirty looks from him, because she doesn't wanna send him a message in any way, shape, or form that he might get lucky. And so you're creating this anxiety within each other outside of the bedroom where he's chasing it, she's running all the time. And so, I came to my husband one day and I just came up with this on my own, I sat down with him and I said, "Okay, I need to learn to not run from you, any time you go to hug me or touch me." If I'm at the kitchen sink and he comes up and fondles me, I would elbow him like, "Stop, you always have to be touching me." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I said, "Can you not just love me for my brain? Does it always have to be about my body?" I've said that so many times to him.0:38:12 Leanne: Why does it always have to be about my body? And the sad thing is he just wanted to be affectionate with me, he just wanted to love me, he just wanted to come and connect with me. But I always perceived it as, "This is sexual, so stop." So anyway, I sat down with him and I said, "I need to learn to stop running," and so at that time, what I said was, "Can we please schedule sex? How many days a week would you like to have sex?" And so we negotiated how many days that would be and we said, "Okay," then I said, "Which days are those?" And so we decided upon which two days of the week those were gonna be. And I said, "Okay, I promise you that on those two days I will say yes, we will have sex." But on the other days outside of the bedroom or even inside the bedroom, no matter how much touch we give each other you cannot ask me for sex. But I need to learn to become comfortable kissing you, embracing you, allowing you to touch me in those fondling ways, and I need to learn to be able to calm my anxieties down around those types of touches. And I said, "Even if we full-on make-out on the couch, you cannot ask me for sex if it's a non-sex day," so that I can learn to be comfortable with touch, with your touch, with your wanting to be just intimate with me just through touch that's not sexual in nature.0:39:34 Daniel: I can't tell you how successful that strategy is. Too many people feel like, "Well that's gonna kill the mood and the desire by scheduling. And I will even depending on the relationship, tell them to schedule specifically when you're gonna do it, 9 o'clock at night, 8 o'clock in the morning, otherwise we find we push it out, but not everybody has to do that. Like your approach generally saying, "Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example, are our sex days and it will happen that day," that allows us to put aside our anxieties. Okay, I'm not gonna engage 'cause as you said, "This sexual dynamic becomes a pursuer and an avoider experience where the man is looking for every clue, looking for all those micro expressions. Is this a flirt or is she just being nice with me? Can I go in for a loving touch? And then it feels like groping, it feels like inappropriate, it feels like objecting, and then it shuts down the loving engagement that the the husband is trying to express. But by setting up a specific time we're able to put those anxieties aside. Okay, I don't have to worry about being grabbed today, randomly, or I don't have to worry about constantly looking at my wife.0:40:41 Daniel: Is this the right time? Is she giving me a clue? We put all that stress aside, so we've been able to eliminate that stress. We've already got too much stress in our relationship, and then to be able to engage, and follow through with that. And a lot of couples feel like that kills the romance. And so the first question I ask is, "Are you having romance right now? [chuckle] No, no, none. And so being able to create that predictability will then allow for romance to happen. And so you can create, so excellent approach. Absolutely excellent.0:41:15 Leanne: Because I found that in doing that, being able to calm down that anxiety, then when he did come up, for instance, behind me at the kitchen sink and give me a hug and then maybe even fondled me a little bit. I was able to learn to fold into that touch, to really embrace that and appreciate it, and just know that he just was wanting my attention. He was wanting to be affectionate with me, and I was able to fold into that instead of being angry, "Ahh he wants sex with me tonight," it's like, "Nope, it's not a sex night," I can fold into this, he's just wanting a moment with me at the kitchen sink. So that helped a lot, and that was a couple of years before the whole exercise of every day. And now it's not even a thought, we engage in all kinds of touch and flirting, and it's not even a worry in either one of our minds if it will or will not lead to the bedroom. Our relationship now it's beautiful, it's wonderful. All of it is just embraced and cherished.0:42:19 Daniel: Do you have any words of advice or cautions that you've learned from your relationship that you feel is important to share that we haven't addressed yet?0:42:28 Leanne: Any cautions?0:42:29 Daniel: Yeah, maybe reflecting on your own approach, What words of advice would you give the wives who are maybe willing to, "Okay, this is scary for me, I wanna open up and embrace my husband's sexual touches." Is there any words of caution around that? Do you feel like that can go wrong? Or did it go wrong for you at any point? Or any other aspects of your sexual relationship and self-discovery?0:42:55 Leanne: I definitely feel like there are still boundaries. And I still give myself permission if there's a certain thing I don't like, I voice it. Just because we're being more open and accepting, you still have your boundaries and it is absolutely okay to voice your boundaries and say, "I don't care for that, or I don't like when you touch me in that certain way it really bothered me because of the," is that what you mean?0:43:22 Daniel: Yeah, that's a great clarification. 'Cause I don't want the listeners to think, "Okay, I'm going to follow Leanne's example and just give myself completely over to my husband's sexual desires and anything goes. You still get that right to say, "I'm uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure about this, I'm not ready for that." Whatever that boundary looks like. And so how do you go about or how would you recommend going about that? 'cause it could be a fine line at times, right? You're wanting to explore, but you also don't wanna shut your partner down. How do you have that communication or to navigate that, that disinterest or that boundary without shutting down, or regressing in your recovery?0:44:06 Leanne: Well, for me, we have progressed so far that I do it just because of the personality that I am. I kinda do it in a blunt, but jokey way, I will say to him, "I am not a milk cow. Please don't touch me that way. It makes me feel like a milk cow."0:44:26 Leanne: Like, stuff like that. Because we've come so far that it's not... We know where we are.0:44:33 Daniel: It's not rejection.0:44:33 Leanne: No, it's not rejection at all because he knows that nine times out of 10 the way he touches me I love and I accept, and I revel in. But if there's a certain way I'll be like, "Hey, that doesn't feel good to me," and sometimes I'll make a joke out of it, but sometimes, I'm like... But I would say though in the bedroom, this is like outside of the bedroom, but in the bedroom when you're trying new things I definitely am more tender, or more thoughtful of his feelings, like make sure just, "Why don't you try it this way 'cause that way is hurting me a little bit." Or I'm more careful with how I... So just because that is so vulnerable place to be in the... You're all there, your whole body, all of you is there. And so I feel like more of a sacred space. I'm definitely more careful.0:45:22 Daniel: And I think husbands need to embrace the idea once you get to at least this level of sexual development and healthy approach. Recognizing it's not a rebuke, it's not a criticism. It's I want you to pleasure me, and if you're willing I could give you ideas on what will help, and right now that's not helping. And being able to embrace that as a learning tool and as a connecting tool as opposed to filling criticized and shut down. Because I think husbands too often will hear it, "Stop doing that," and they stop everything or they give up, or whatever.0:46:04 Leanne: I think husbands they get such a bad rap. It just makes me so sad. But I think they are very sensitive in this area. They feel like they're, society tells them that they should be these sexual experts who should automatically know how to please a woman or whatever. And it opens them up to, there's a lot of pressure that they feel to try to please their wives. And then I wanna talk about that for a minute, so the learning each other sexually. Too often we think that men just need to automatically know what their wives would want. And recently, I've heard this idea and concept and it's absolutely true, and made so much such in my head. You're the only one that's in charge of your sexual pleasure, you're in charge of it because you're the only one that's in your head and inside your body. Your husband's not, he doesn't know what you're thinking. He doesn't know what you're feeling inside of your body. And so yes he's trying to pleasure you, but if you don't voice if that's pleasurable or not he's not gonna know. And so it takes a lot of communication. And if a wife is not receiving, if she's unhappy with her sex life and basically all they're having his intercourse because she hasn't voiced anything different and she hates it and resents it.0:47:36 Leanne: Well, my question to them is, "Have you asked for anything different? Because how is he supposed to know that you want anything different? And I think me, I talked about this in my last podcast. But men and women really do need to understand each other sexualities and how we pick, and that women tend to be more emotional. And if my emotional needs were not being meet outside the bedroom, then it is hard for me to then be physical with my husband. If I feel like he was being, that he was mean to me on a certain day, or just really being grumpy and kinda taking it out on me, I'm gonna be less inclined to want to then be physical with him in the bedroom if he asks me for it. It's like, "You were kind of a jerk today, I'm not feeling emotionally connected to you because you hurt my feelings." But sometimes maybe we need to get to the bottom of that."Have you had a rough day? You seem really stressed today. Can I help you with that at all? Can we talk about that?" And maybe it's the end of the day and he answers that conversation, "Yes, he was really stressed and yes he would love to be with us intimately to get some tenderness from us to relieve that stress." And so yes, we can't completely shut him down because they were barking outside the bedroom.0:48:55 Leanne: But I think men also has a duty to understand that it's important for women to feel connected on emotional level with their husbands in order to be able to be intimate in the bedroom. But then on the other hand, women need to understand that men that's the way they connect with you is through the physical. That's the way they show you that they love you and you need to love and embrace that.0:49:16 Leanne: And women and men we've talked about it before, we need to figure out what each other likes. We need to have some [0:49:23] ____ focused exercises within our marriage where you're just really discovering each other's bodies, and discovering what each other likes. That needs to be happening. Women need to figure out what they love, so do men. And we need to come together as a couple and figure out and what then together we can do to bring the most pleasure to each other in all aspects, in the four-levels, spiritual, mental, emotional, bring all that together, and figure it out. And it's a journey. I think people think it's gonna happen overnight. It is not, it doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey and you need to embrace it as a journey. This is a journey of discovery that we are on together, and embrace it and be excited about it.0:50:09 Daniel: And it never ends, because we're constantly changing...0:50:13 Leanne: No.0:50:13 Daniel: As human beings biologically, emotionally, stress, whatever. And so if we think, "Oh that's a mistake," we finally feel like we've had some breakthroughs we enjoy sex this way, and I think that's why a lot of couples get stuck in a rut and repeating certain routine sexual behaviors is 'cause we knew it worked then, but it still needs to be discovered. Is this still working and explore that and also a thought, going back to what you're saying about if he's grumpy, I actually recommend that you first have sex and I think it goes along with this concept of being responsible for your own sexual arousal, not making somebody else a partner or excuse me, relying on somebody else for your arousal. There is definitely a need for your partner to be loving and kind to you to help that along, but I've often suggested have sex and then have that conversation of, you appeared grumpy today, and it was kind of hard to be around that. Can we talk about that? And you'll find in almost every situation, after you have sex it's much easier to have that conversation. Much, much easier and to recover and reduce that type of behavior.0:51:33 Leanne: Sex really is or can be kind of a bomb, like a healing bomb for couples. It's a beautiful thing, it really is. It's such a beautiful gift that God has given to couples, and it breaks my heart to see all the struggle that surrounds it. Because when the barriers can be broken down and the husbands and wives can really work on this part of their relationship, it really is a healing bomb for the rest of their relationship. It's like the crowning jewel and it breaks my heart when so many couples just struggle with it, and so many women just shut it down. Not understanding it at all, not understanding what it can be. It just, it really makes me sad.0:52:39 Daniel: I think we focus a lot on how the adversary can corrupt the sexual experience, and we generally view that in the context of perverting it in physical acts. But the one aspect that the adversary tries to destroy sexuality is by avoiding it. If he can't corrupt it, then avoid it. I refer to that as sexual silence, and that can take on many, many forms. Whether it's just not talking about, or avoiding it, or saying a certain behavior is bad, it shuts it down and it creates that divisiveness. But if we're able to use sex in a way to communicate we could bring each other together. And that's the beauty that I hear you saying over and over today.0:53:31 Leanne: I fully believe, my husband I have talked about this very thing quite often. The adversary, before we're married he will tempt us with trying to get us to have sex outside of marriage because after we're married he will try to get us to stop having sex. It is so true because he knows that will reek havoc within a marriage, and he doesn't care how he destroys a person. He doesn't care if he's having you have sex outside of marriage, or get you to stop having sex inside a marriage. He'll try to destroy people in any way he can, and he knows how powerful a marriage is when they can be deeply connected sexually. A marriage that is truly intimate in all levels of their marriage, that is a powerful marriage, and satan knows that, and he will try to get at it in any way you can. And the biggest way he does it is by shutting down sexuality. I firmly believe that.0:54:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Leanne, you've been so insightful. Is there any other things that you would like to address before we end today's podcast?0:54:37 Leanne: Okay, one more thing really, really fast.0:54:39 Daniel: Absolutely, take your time.0:54:40 Leanne: Can I just say that having kids is really tiring. And my husband and I weren't able to have children, but we adopted two children. And sex and being able to work on your life, sex life, it gets easier, and easier as the kids get older and older. And so I would just say give yourself grace in this area. Both husbands and wives need to realize that kids can be exhausting, and there's seasons of our lives that are harder for us to work on our sex lives just because of exhaustion. There are two things that kill desire the most, one is exhaustion, and the other one is being pressured. If you feel pressured to have sex or if you are exhausted those are the two main killers of desire. And so I just wanna say, just know that and work through that. It's gonna be tricky to work through when your kids are small, especially, but just try to keep working on that as much as you can. And just keep looking forward to that day, it's gonna get easier, it's gonna get easier. And now that we're empty nesters it's amazing because we work on it whenever we want. But we had something to work on it on the other side of our kids being gone, like we started working on this a couple of years ago. And so we weren't staring at each other when both of our kids are gone saying, "We don't know who we are anymore. Like who are you?0:56:17 Leanne: I haven't been creating this relationship with you all these years. I don't even know you." And husbands, I didn't realize how hard kids were until I had my little grand baby for two weeks, a couple of weeks ago, and he kicked my butt. I had him for two weeks and I was exhausted, and it really made me appreciate again young mothers. And so husbands just step in where you can to help her, especially if it's a night that you know you're gonna have sex. Help her get the kids to bed, help her with dinner, help her relieve some of that exhaustion, so she has some energy left for you at the end, 'cause honestly kids can be exhausting.0:57:04 Daniel: Yes, they can be.0:57:05 Leanne: I discovered that. [chuckle]0:57:07 Daniel: Absolutely.0:57:07 Leanne: I discovered that a couple of weeks ago. I was like, "Oh my God."0:57:09 Daniel: In with those, to borrow this idea that we talked about earlier. Even in my opinion, I find that with kids scheduling is even more important 'cause you can do it during nap time time, and create some sort of expectation around that, positive expectation with your spouse, so that you don't feel like you're being demanded from constantly. Thank you Leanne. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing more of your story, thank you.0:57:38 Leanne: Can I say one more thing really, really fast.0:57:40 Daniel: Of course. Go for it.0:57:41 Leanne: Okay, one thing that helped me the most and then I'll be done. It's been bugging me 'cause I knew I wanted to say it and I couldn't remember what it was. Because men and women's desire is so different, there's responsive desire versus, what's the other one? I'm sure you know it, responsive versus spontaneous. So a husband is more spontaneous desire, when he thinks about sex he's ready to go right then, and a woman is more responsive, she kinda has to kinda start being intimate and then the desire comes. And so the biggest thing that helped for me was to always have a pilot light lit with inside of me. And what the pilot light says to me is that, "I am so connected to you, and I want to be known by you, and I want you to know me, and I wanna connect on a deep level, we are already connected on that deep level." And so that pilot light is always lit and whenever my husband wants to be intimate or whatever, and I initiate just as much as he does now. But whenever he does want to initiate the answer is always yes because that pilot light is like, "Yup," and I know it will take me a little bit to get in the mood, like right now I'm not sexually feeling it in this moment. I'm not turned on in this moment, but I know once we get started it will come.0:58:56 Leanne: And I think so often women are like, "I just don't have a sex drive, I just don't think about it. I don't have a sex drive." Well it's 'cause we're created differently. We're responsive, we have to be talked into sex, or feel start to engage and then the response comes. And so, I think, we as women we need to remember that. You might not feel like you're in the mood right now, but start being intimate and you'll find that not too long into it you're in the mood. And so keeping that pilot light always lit for me is very helpful.0:59:45 Daniel: I think that was a wonderful way to end us. Thank you, I appreciate your time.0:59:52 Leanne: Yup, yup. Thank you.0:59:53 Daniel: Alright.

In this Best of Episode we help Daniel decide if he's expert enough to start his online business. This episode was originally published on July 10, 2018.  You can check out the original episode here:  http://flippedlifestyle.com/podcast212 FULL TRANSCRIPT Jocelyn: Hey, y'all!  On today's podcast, we help Daniel decide if he's expert enough to start his online business. Shane: Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast where life always comes before work.  We're your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. We're a real family who figured out how to make our entire living online.  And now, we help other families do the same. Are you ready to flip your life?  Alright, let's get started. What's going on everybody?  Welcome back to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast, it is great to be back with you again this week!  Super excited to have another member of the Flip Your Life community on the show today. I've been looking forward to this specific interview all week, and you're going to learn why here in just a minute. Jocelyn: I'm pretty sure he's talked about it like every single day.   Shane: Every single day.  I'm so pumped up right now to welcome Daniel Hulsman to the show.   Daniel, what's up man?   Daniel: Hey, how you guys doing?  It's really good to be out here and talking to you both!   Jocelyn: We are pumped to have you here, as Shane has mentioned.   Shane: I am super pumped to have you here! Jocelyn: Shane loves telling stories, so I'm just going to let him take it away.   Shane: Alright, here's how Daniel and I got together, okay? Jocelyn: Something I should know?   Shane: No, no.  This is a G-rated show, Jocelyn.  Alright, so Daniel sent me an email during a recent launch.  A few weeks ago, we opened the doors to the Flip Your Life community and started giving everybody out there a month for free.  Daniel apparently heard this and signed up and you know, and he went through a couple of the emails and things like that. He had not joined yet, he had not joined the membership yet.  So, I wake up one morning, and I get this email because yes, we check our emails, okay. And I get a message and the first line -- what was the subject line on this? Daniel: I'm just shaking my head over here.   Shane: I know, right.  There was some hater-ade in this email, people.  This is a critique, is what I'm about to show you, I'm not going to read the whole thing.  But Daniel's sends me this email and says two things -- a little smug Daniel, I'm not going to lie -- but it said two things: "One, your customer service link in this email leads to a 404 page.”  So that is not a good sign when somebody pointing out a broken link. Jocelyn: When your email starts like that it's probably not going to go too good. Shane: And he made the emoticon, it wasn't even the Emoji.  He actually used the type of symbols of a smiley face with a tear.  That's sad, guys, we're supposed to have all this together, right?  And then he goes on with this giant block text of paragraph about just all sorts of stuff he didn't like in our marketing and things like that, but here's what drew me in.  Are you ready for this Daniel? This is the turn to the positive, this is the turn to the light side of the force. Daniel: (sighs) Shane: So he's critiquing all of our sales techniques and blah, blah, blah, and I just heard all of this skepticism in all of this stuff.  And then he said, "And you gave me a heart attack on Episode 200 when you said goodbye because I did not want your podcast to go away.”   So that's where the turn was and it says, "You are changing lives of people like me who want a better life for their families.”  I read every word of this email and it was really long, and that's the point where I was like, man, I saw something there. I was like, “This guy wants a better life.”  Then he went on to say, "I've been struggling to get my website off the ground for a few years, and your story inspires me to keep trying." So, all of that criticism, all of that critique, when I got to the end, I realized it was just frustration.  It was just a little frustration, a little skepticism, a little "Is this real?" and you've been doing this for a while, and I sent him a message back, my email.  I purposefully had to write more words than you did. Daniel: Oh, that was a good little novella.   Shane: Yes, yes.  There was some massive… this was a no-sugar soliloquy.   Jocelyn: Oh, now we're going to get tons of hate mail, so people will get to have--   Shane: Yeah, everybody will just send me hate mail now, like, "Shane will write me back if I do that!”  Here's what's funny though. This is the difference between me and Jocelyn. I was writing this email, and when I was doing it, Jocelyn was like, "Are you still writing that guy back?"  And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm still writing. I'm doing it!” Jocelyn: I'm trying to talk to him about stuff, and get things done.  And he's like, "No, no, no, I'm writing this email!” Shane: "No, Daniel is getting a message back from me.”   Jocelyn: I'm like, "Okay.”   Shane: I could have gone a thousand ways with this email.  I could have gone, "How dare you find my broken link.”   Daniel: Or just deleted it.   Shane: Or just deleted it and I could have just ignored it.  But I really just felt drawn, and there was potential there and you wanted something more, and that's what we're here for -- that's our mission.  So basically I won't read the whole soliloquy. Jocelyn: Please don't.   Shane: I won't, I won't.  I won't read this parable that I wrote you back.  But in the future book, it will come out. But my main point was, “Are you going to let a link that goes to a 404 page or a sales page hold you back, and are you going to look back again in a few years from now and say, ‘Man, I've struggled for a few years and I'm done,' or are you going to look back and say, ‘That was the moment I actually took action and took my next step.'” And I challenged you.  I just said, "Go join! It's free for 30 days.  You go look at every course we've got and you see if it doesn't move you forward.”  And I said, "Instead of critiquing our sales process, watch the magician's hands. You've been struggling for a few years, and we have it.  Maybe there's something there. Maybe there's something we're doing differently.” I've got to read what you sent me back. Daniel: Oh, yeah.  Please go ahead, I was angsty. There was a long time of just reflection before I sent anything back.   Shane: I jumped up, man, and you can ask Jocelyn.  I started going crazy and pumping my fist because I was so excited.  You sent me this message back, and it said, "I started to spend a few minutes, trying to think of a clever yet grateful response to your candid feedback--" and I like how you said 'candid feedback' because if anyone saw this message, it was pretty candid.   Daniel: Yeah.   Shane: And it says, "But I think I'll just shut up and get started instead.  Sounds like I've got some work to do. I just finished the form, I'm logging in, and when I get home, I'm printing your email and hanging it on my wall next to my computer.  Thank you for the much-needed kick in the (blank)!” So I just want to say, you're welcome for the boot print on the back of your pants. Daniel: Thank you, sir.   Shane: And I am so glad that you are a member of the Flip Your Life community now, and that we turned a critic into a customer.  After you followed up, and I saw what you have going in your business, I know that you've got a great, great potential to do something with it, okay, so Kudos to you, man.   Jocelyn: We love these kinds of stories so much because it's just awesome.  So many people want to point fingers at other people and say, "You're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong.”  But most of the time it's more like a mirror. They're looking back at themselves, and thinking, "My life is not perfect either.”  None of our lives are perfect. So that's the cool thing about this, is that we're able to help each other and we don't just give up on people. I mean, if you were like a blatant hater or... Shane: There is a difference in a critic and a troll.  I was actually very thankful you found that link.  Before I wrote you back, I emailed our team and I said, "We've got to fix this link.”  That's how I started my email back to you, so I was actually really grateful that you sent email in the first place.  It helped us, and I wanted some reciprocity there to help you back. Jocelyn: And so we knew that we had to talk to you because of this crazy story, and we just love it when things like this happen, so thank you for being here today! Daniel: No problem.  And I'm sure my wife's going to get a real kick out of listening to this as well because when I finally told her that you had offered to speak with me this morning, she was like, "Why?!" And then I had to tell her the whole backstory.  And she's like, "I am a little surprised that you sent that email, but sounds like you deserved your response." Shane:  That is absolutely hilarious!  Jocelyn: Okay.  If we're being honest with ourselves, like everyone listening to this show, myself included, we've all done something like this.  This is not something-- we're not trying to pick on you and say like, "Oh, you shouldn't have done this or whatever." Shane: This is like when you get mad and you honk at somebody or give them a rude gesture on the highway for doing something you did a week ago.  It's all it is. I've seen so many emails like that. There's a difference between a troll, and a guy who's like, "Guys, I really like what you're doing and I'd love to have it, too.  And I think I could get it, but I'm frustrated, and nothing's just working and I'm just trying to vocalize that, and I don't know how to do it." Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've been beating my head against a wall for years.  The whole way that I started my current website, I actually bought another course, a $500 course years ago.  I've been a longtime listener of that podcast, and I signed up. They're very adamant, don't skip any steps. As a good little soldier, I did all the steps and at the end I had ended up with this website and like a tiny little affiliate sale every now and then.  And a website that I felt was nice, but it was a website, it wasn't a business. I just didn't know where to go after spending all this time pouring myself into this and years later here I am still not sure how to course correct. Shane: Well, listen.  You're not the only person that's ever done that.  The next step is always the most frustrating step that never goes away.  We're sitting here figuring out our next step just like you are. It's just at a different level.  That frustration is part of the journey and hey, man, we'll get you past it, and let's get you to the next step and that's what we're here for so we can help you do that.   Jocelyn: The reason that we started this trial because we feel like there are so many people out there who are frustrated, and they don't know what to do next.   Shane: Or they've been burned by that $500 course in the past and nothing happened.  Like I got burned by a course like that! What happened in 2012, when I first started this, the first thing I discovered was Google ad marketing, like where you make a niche website that has like five pages and you put Google ads on it and the gurus all said you'd be a millionaire in six months.   Jocelyn: All that was before the big Google smackdown, they call it.   Shane: So I built a couple of these sites and, granted, it did make our first ad click, which was eleven cents that inspired us that it's possible to make money online.  But I'm paid a dime and a penny! If you can't pay my groceries with this thing, you can't even get the cart at Aldi! That's a quarter. For anybody that has an Aldi, you know what I'm talking about here, you can't even get the cart out at the grocery store for a dime and a penny.  But what happened was -- it's so funny-- I got frustrated, but once we figured that out, I bought another course about email marketing. I noticed, not that that guy was email marketing for affiliates.  I noticed that his email marketing was to sell his course on email marketing and he was selling his own product.  That was really the epiphany that we had was, it's not about partnering and JV Partnerships. That's cool, that's later.  It's not about affiliate links, it's not about ad clicks, it's not about Amazon and all that. You're not going to make any money that way.  It's about figuring out how you can serve other people, creating a product that solves their problem and that's what you promote. That may be the next step for you too.  Alright, so rewind! Jocelyn: That was a lot of information. Shane: It's still one of my favorite stories ever and it always will be, and I'm going to be so proud of you, not only because you joined, but I can't wait to see you succeed.   Jocelyn: I can't even express the joy that Shane had when you decided to join the membership. Shane: Oh my gosh, when you joined the membership, I was like, "That dude joined.  Holy cow, that's unbelievable!” Jocelyn: That's his mission in life.   Daniel: You know what it was.  It was the last line in your email.  It just went off on me and then at the end, the last time was just 'Finish', with a link back to the form that I didn't complete.  That was just the word that echoed in my subconscious until I did it. Shane: Oh yeah.  I see it now.  It just says 'Finish:' and then the form.   Jocelyn: I hope that, if nothing else from this story, I hope that people understand that we really do care about you and we want what's best for every single person listening to this podcast.  That's the reason why we do what we do. Yes, we are a for-profit business. We have to pay our bills, but we want everyone out there to succeed, and that's why we're offering this free trial.  So I hope that if nothing else, people understand that we really do want what's best for every single one of you. Shane: And I also realized too, there's a lot of movement out there.  People want to shut everyone out of their lives and all these gurus are like, "Well, if anyone hates you, delete them, and if anyone critiques you, screw them, and if anybody, whatever, whatever, whatever," but like man, 90% of the people that even send you feedback, they're just really asking you for some advice.   Jocelyn: And if somebody has taken their time to email you, even if it's something you'd really don't want to hear-- Shane: They care.  They at least care.   Jocelyn: They care enough to send the email.   Shane: Love it, hate it, but never ignore it, man.  Help somebody next time they send you a bad email, send them back and say, "You alright?  What's going on? Can I help you?" Jocelyn: That being said, please don't send us a lot of hate mail! Shane: I can read through the fake hate mail guys.  I know fake hate from real hate. Okay, so let's do it!   Jocelyn: Alright.  So before we get more into the story, let's go back just a little bit.  We want to know about you, your background, and what you have started so far online.   Daniel: Sure, so, by day, I'm a father.  I live in Boston and I am a full-time music teacher at an inter-high school in Boston.  I grew up in Delaware. Go Blue Hens! Our mascot's a giant blue chicken, really exciting!   Shane: We have a mascot in the Kentucky school called, “The Hilltopper.”  It's literally a red pile of dirt. That's what he is. The Hilltoppers and the Blue Hens can go to war.   Daniel: I don't even know what to say about that.  That's so strange. But you know, why not? Sure.  I graduated with my music education degree looking to be a music teacher, and then that was 2008 and then the economy crashed.  All the arts jobs disappeared so I had to kind of scramble and figure out something else to do. I ended up working for Apple for a few years doing B2B sales, and then I just started nerding out on online marketing stuff after reading the Four-Hour Work Week.  I ended up getting a job at a marketing software company called Hubspot. Worked there for a year before getting back into teaching.   So it's been kind of a bit of an eclectic journey professionally.  But then on the side of that, two years ago, as I said, I started, you know, I did an online course and at the end of that I had a website for video game composers because I love video game music and I've always loved to do games and stuff.   Jocelyn: Okay.  I need to just stop you right there because in your intake form, it says I manage-- Shane: 'Intake Form.' That sounds like he's getting up for parole, and your intake form-- "Your podcast application" would be better, probably. Jocelyn: On the podcast questionnaire, how's that?   Daniel: Perfect.   Jocelyn: Okay.  I just have to ask you about this because I don't know what this means.  Okay, it says, "I manage a choir that records professional video game soundtracks twice a year.” So let's back the truck up. Shane: That seems like the coolest job ever!   Daniel: Alright, sure.  So I ended up by networking in the Boston scene here, which actually there's an orchestra called the Video Game Orchestra in Boston and they started as a club out of Berkeley College of Music, and then they ended up becoming a full-blown professional orchestra that records the live music for video games.  I happened to meet and befriend the guy who runs that. Over a couple of years, just because he knew I was a singer, I ended up getting pulled into a choir to record a trailer for a game called, “Final Fantasy 15.” Shane: Are you kidding me?  You sang on Final Fantasy 15?! Daniel: I did.  I sang on the trailer, and then I sang on 10 tracks on the soundtrack.   Shane: Dude, I am so glad you wrote me hate mail! Jocelyn: Who gets this job?   Shane: Yeah, this is amazing.   Jocelyn: "Yeah, I sing on video games.”   Daniel:  It's a very fun thing to drop in a conversation.  I've got to admit. I mean, you know, it's very few and far in between, but the gigs are extremely fun.  I've just wrapped up a second one or our first one for the year. It's just a lot of fun. But the third grader in me is just elated.  Every time I go into the recording studio and get the recorded video game music, I got the music pumping into my headphones, and with the school to sing-- the instrument that I was trained on was voice.  And so it, you know, I'm really thankful for that because now I get to go and sing on video games. Jocelyn: My nine-year-old son would think this is the coolest thing ever.   Shane: Oh yeah, because he loves music, he loves video games.   Daniel: Then you know, he and I, we understand each other, then.   Shane: What's cool about this, too, man, is I can see where this is going.  One thing that people love about the Flip Your Life community, and once again there are needs for life coaches and business coaches, but everybody doesn't have to be one.  The variety of niches and our community is second to none. Like we have people, we talk about it all the time. We've got people doing everything you can imagine. Ninety percent of our people are doing something besides life coaching.   And you hear about this, I would never think, oh, there's a niche for video game music composing.  But even as you say this, we've got a member named Chris Greenwood, he goes by the name, Manafest. Really big Christian artist, awesome guy.  His songs, though, one of the ways that he markets his music is he licenses it for games and licenses it for movies. And now you're actually recording original tracks for things, so there are so many niche markets out there that you wouldn't think people would want to get into.  But then you're like, "Well, wait a minute, if you're doing it and he's doing it and somebody else is doing it, well, there are probably thousands of people that want to do it.  Right?" And uh, that's where this kind of came from. Jocelyn: Okay, so your site is about this video game music, correct.   Daniel: Yup, to help new and aspiring video game composers.   Shane: What is it called?  What's the domain name?   Daniel: VGMacademy.com Shane: videogameacademy.com, okay.   Daniel: You can go to either videogamemusicacademy.com, or you can go to vgmacademy.com, and it'll redirect you.   Shane: You actually own a three letter domain?   Daniel: vgmacademy.com Shane: Wow, that's really awesome that you have that, you know what I'm saying?  Because those are hard to get. Daniel: Well, it was kind of those dot academy ones, I wasn't that fast.   Shane: I got you, I got you, I got you.  Now tell everyone a little bit about where your community is, because you've actually built a community, an audience around this.  We've not monetized it yet, which is very common, right? So tell everybody else about the other assets that are around the website.   Daniel: Yeah, sure.  So I've got an email list that has got currently over 2,600 people on it, which I feel pretty good about that number.  I just obviously don't know what to do with it at this point. I've got a pretty sizable Twitter following of like 4,500 people or somewhere around there right now.  But my thing that I really liked the most at this point is that I've got a private Facebook group that has just reached 1,000 members.  It's like a no-spam, no-self-promotion zone for people to get in there and get questions and ask help, but also engage in anything that's going on with the website.   I've got a community challenge that I run over the summer.  So this is the second time I'm doing it, starting in a couple of days in July.  It's a 21-day challenge for composers to get in there, and just write something, even just like a little tiny something.  One little musical idea, just write something new every day for 21 days straight to make it a habit, and everyone goes in there.  Last year it was awesome! Everyone posted, you know, put up a graphic for each day. Shane: Is this free?   Daniel: Yeah, this is free! Yup! Shane: Do you make them opt in to get in the challenge?   Daniel: Yes.  Yeah. Shane: Okay, that's good.  Do you create content regularly on your website?  Like blogs or videos or anything like that? Daniel: I used to, but this past year, to be completely upfront and honest, I've just been kind of burned out and frustrated.  I feel like anytime I come back and pour energy into it, I feel like it's misdirected, or it doesn't really move the needle on anything.  So this past year, it's been pretty inconsistent. Shane: Listen, you have no idea what you've got in your hands.   Jocelyn: You're doing so many things right!   Shane: So many things right, so many things that other people can't even figure out how to do or won't figure out how to do.  Like how to do a challenge, how to opt in for it, how to get them in a private Facebook group. And your audience? I mean you have 2,500 emails.  Do you know how many people would drive to Boston and punch you in the face to steal 2,500 emails from you? You have this Facebook group with a thousand people, Twitter followers.  You have an audience that you've built! When Jocelyn and I launched our first product that did like thousands of dollars, we had less than 400 emails total, and it did like almost three grand in like the first week.  So you've got the people, you've got the thing, you've proven that people want this, and these challenges, you've proven that people will opt in. It's not a large stretch to just say, "Well, what if I charged for a challenge that got more involvement with me?" Jocelyn: Or at the end of my challenge, I'll give them their next step and I charge them for it?  Daniel, this is not hard! Shane: Yeah, you got this, man, dude.  I want to talk about two things, first, really quick is fears and obstacles.  Something's holding you back because you've got the tools in place. Jocelyn: What's going on inside your head that's saying, "I can't do this?   Shane: What are you afraid of?  What's the fear that's holding you back?   Daniel: The biggest thing is that I feel like-- and this is again a part of the result of that original course.  I ended up with a website and a community that's really looking for someone. In some ways at least I feel like I'm not qualified enough to take people to the next step that they want because I'm not a full-time working video game music composer.  I'm a music teacher. I know a lot of basics in terms of songwriting and composition. But in terms of like a lot of the technologies that people want help with the digital audio workstations, people can spend and waste countless hours of time diving into the audio technology and the audio engineering part of it.  And that's just something that's a huge time investment. I'm not able to become the expert on that as fast as I think I would need to be at this point. I feel like I'm in a lot of ways behind the ball of my audience in terms of the audio engineering component.  But that's the biggest thing: I kind of feel like in some ways I'm just not qualified. In other words, I think I am.  I think that I know a decent amount about marketing, I know a little bit about negotiating, which is something that comes up with freelancing.  So I got some transferable skills, you know, music theory and that kind of stuff. But I just don't know if I'm at a point where I have put myself in a position where I can be as helpful as I originally intended to be.  I think I have really big and ambitious dreams. But then becoming a parent, apparently you have a lot less free time and energy. So yeah! Shane: You have less time than the millennial on the beach in Thailand? Daniel: You know, believe it or not, I have a little less time than them, you know.  And that was the thing that shocked me. That was, I was definitely one of those, "I'm going to make it, I'm going to figure out how to manage this and make it work for me,” sort of people.  But then I had a kid that didn't sleep for two years. Jocelyn: Okay, let's push pause on that because that's a different issue.   Shane: Let's pause! Okay.  We've pulled out a fear and an obstacle.  The obstacle is kids that don't sleep on time.  We'll get to that in a minute. Now the fear is this: let me do a mock conversation for you here, okay.   I walk up to you and I'm like, "Oh man, I would love to compose music for video games.  Man, that'd be a cool job. I would love to do that, but Daniel, I think you could maybe teach me how to do that, but you know what?  Like I just want to make sure that you're even expert enough.” So then it comes back to you, "You look at them and say, 'Have you sang on Final Fantasy 15?' And that guy goes, 'No,' and you look at him and you say, 'I have.  Sit down and listen.'" Okay, so let me just dispel that: you're expert enough!  What you're trying to do is what a lot of people do: you think you have to know every single thing ever about your topic.  There are things that we don't know about online business. I meet with people that are very high level all the time in different spaces.  I'm in a mastermind group with some ballers and they're good dudes and we all do our businesses very differently and sometimes they say things and I can't even wrap my brain around it, what they're talking about.  But that's okay because I don't teach that thing even though it's still online business. What we teach is how to start, how to find an idea, how to get your website going, how to get your product created, how to get it out to market, how to start a membership site and create stable recurring income.   I don't know anything about JV partnerships and affiliate marketing, but I've got a friend who's made millions of dollars doing it, but I don't teach that.  I don't have to teach that and I don't have to go learn that. You don't have to learn all the digital audio mixing and stuff like that.  You could partner with someone who sells that and be an affiliate for them though, and then you could teach composition, negotiation, how to get the job, how to keep the job, how to make sure they call you back because you're getting called back.   You got to teach what you know and then point them to other people.  We don't teach people to do public speaking even though that's a big part of some brands.  Jocelyn and I, the only public speaking we do is at our own live events, we don't have time to go do all that other stuff.  But if I wanted to send someone to teach public speaking right now, I would send them to my friend, Grant Baldwin, The Speaker Lab, because he knows how to teach public speaking.  But I'm not going to go learn how to teach public speaking just so I can create a course about it, that doesn't make sense for us. Jocelyn: Let me tell you, and everyone who's listening, a secret.  And it's not really a secret. But you are not for everyone.  We are not for everyone. There are people out there who say, "You know what, I've grown my business and you know, I'm making a million dollars a year, and your stuff is beneath me.  Like I don't know how to get to the next level, and you're not going to be able to help me.” No, we're not, because that's not who we serve. Shane: I don't want to help you get to 10 million dollars a year.  Fine, you're a millionaire. You figured it out! You know what I mean?  Like that's not our point. Our mission is to help 100,000 people start their online business, and get to a point where they could have the decision to quit their job.  That's our mission is to help people start that journey. Our mission is not to take the person from a million dollars to 10 million dollars.  I'm not going to go try to figure that out. I'll leave that to somebody else. Same thing here, don't think you've got to teach all these other things.  I don't know the Video Game Music Act that requires you to have so many hours of certain degrees to teach people how to get into the industry. That doesn't exist.   Jocelyn: Let me tell you what this is, though.  This is you looking at yourself saying, "I'm not perfect in these ways, and I don't want someone to point out those flaws," and let me tell you how I know that because this is my everyday life.   Shane: Yeah, Jocelyn always does that.  We might have a deficiency. Like, one of the things that we struggle with is leading our team.  Jocelyn and I are very much like visionary, mud-on-the-wall, let's go, let's figure this out, and sometimes it's hard for us to pull back and lead our team.  But we have a really big team and we've got to actually go and sort this out. We have to be better. Jocelyn: It's just not something we enjoy doing.  Therefore, we don't want to do it. Shane: But we do share our struggles with our community.  We share our struggles on our podcast, and those struggles are just as valuable as someone who's got it figured out.  You could even talk about that. Listen, what if someone is a composer, and understands music because they went through music, and the band, and choir, and all these things, and they went to college, and they were vocal, and they learned how to sing.   What if the millions of people who do that never learned how to use these digital audio things?  And now you can say to them, “I don't have this skill, but I made it. I figured it out and I can help you do it, too!” Jocelyn: Do you know what the beauty of having a community for this is?  You don't have to know all the answers. You are surrounded by lots of other people who are interested in the same thing and guess what?  They might be strong where you're weak. It's just like our community. Like there are things that I'm not fantastic at, but there are hundreds of people inside our community, and a lot of them might have experience with it where maybe I don't.   That's the awesome thing, is that I can go in and say, "Hey, I've never done this, but our member, Kevin, has done this," or, "Our member, Karen, has done this.”  You know, I can pull out names of people who are an expert in this field and I don't have to be. So that is the awesome thing about doing that. Shane: That's one reason that we always say people come for the content, but they stay for the leadership in the community, because the leadership guides them to what things that leaders don't even know.  Like I can at least point to you the direction where you need to go, and the community fills in gaps of knowledge because if we have thousands of entrepreneurs in one place that are dealing with the three-year-old who doesn't sleep, that are dealing with the fear of being expert enough, that are dealing with how do I overcome this software plugin or whatever, then now we get to fill in the gaps and we get to work together and you can create that same dynamic.   You've probably seen this, I bet, in your community, haven't you?  Like people are talking about things and giving feedback that you didn't even think of and conversations and challenges. Have you seen that in your community? Daniel: Yeah, yeah! It's funny that you mentioned that because you know in a way I haven't needed to talk about the technical stuff in terms of the software in the Facebook group because a lot of times when people ask that question, which is not as often as I would've expected, but when those questions do come up, a bunch of people jump on them.   Shane: Exactly.  And that's why a community is really important in this kind of thing because what you have to do is say, “What CAN I teach people?  That's the most important question. “What problem CAN I solve?” And we so often get bogged down in the things that we can't solve.  "Well, I can't solve this for them. Well, I can't teach them this so I must not be sufficient," but you are sufficient. You are good enough and you are awesome at these things.   You have to make a bulleted list of “What Can I Teach Them?”  Well, I can teach them to the composure. I can teach them to negotiate.  I can teach them where to look for these gigs because you've probably got an idea of that, you know, you can teach them all those things.  That's what forms the basis of your content and then your leadership with coaching or community and things like that, that's going to guide them to the next step.  And that's what you are. You're a lantern bearer on a dark path, you're going down a path, you're showing them where to go. Jocelyn: You've already found the lantern.   Shane: That's right, you got it.  So you know where to go. You came back and got somebody else.  Now, you're taking them to where you were. And another thing I really sensed from you is you really want these people to do this.  Like, you know this is awesome, and these people want to do it. And you're like, "Man, I really would love for everybody to get to sing on Final Fantasy 15, right?" Daniel: Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest kicks I got doing this challenge last year was that, I was blown away by -- I was very clear with the community that I was really only looking for you to show up and write two to four bars of music a day.  A few seconds of music, a little idea. People really just created some really beautiful, some really awesome tracks, and a lot of them were doing full-blown, completed tracks almost every single day. That to me was a huge win. There was so much really great music that came out of it.  And I was just really happy! Jocelyn: But here's the problem.  You pumped the brakes, you gave them something awesome.  And he said, “Okay guys, see you next summer. We'll do this again.”  Daniel, stop it! Shane: You're like, "Look, I'd love to create a course, but I got to write some hate mail to Shane.  That's what I've got to do here." Daniel: I've got emails to write.   Shane: “I've got emails to write, y'all.  I know we're making great music, but I'm writing great copy here.”  I love your mission that poured out right there. Your mission is to help people write great music.  Your mission is to give them a doorway, an opportunity to go the next step. Your mission is not to teach them the mixer, teach them the thing, get them the job, all of that.  The first step that you can teach everybody is that you can do this. because you do it every day in your classroom, you do it every day in your group, you do it on all these challenges. You can teach people to make music that's changing their world, the people around them.  They're releasing new things into the world that never existed before, and then they have the opportunity to go the next step, And then they have the opportunity to learn the technology. And then they have the opportunity to apply for the job, but until they write that music, until it's released into the world, they don't have that opportunity.  Your endgame for them might be to do what you've done, but you have to help them get started and give them the opportunity. Jocelyn: And I'm going to tell you something.  I talked about this a few weeks ago on the podcast.  I feel like I can speak freely with you because, well, this whole podcast this week is kind of crazy.   Daniel: Yeah, it's free, pretty free.   Shane: There's been some free speaking.   Jocelyn: But here's the thing.  I talked about this, I think the 200th episode.  You are being selfish by holding this gift back, so stop it.  You have to do this. You owe it to these people who have a dream, who have something that they want to do, you're being selfish by not giving them the next step.   Shane: Your mission is not to get people a video game job.  That's a result! Your job is to help people unleash music that's inside of them into world through the conduit of video games.  I play Fortnight with my son. Daniel: Nice! Shane: Isaac and I play all the time.   Jocelyn: Not so nice for me.   Shane: Yeah, Jocelyn loses about an hour and a half a day of her life, so we play Fortnite together.  We play almost every day. I love the music at the beginning of Fortnite. I just love it, it makes me happy.  But going back before that, before I had kids, and right up when we had kids, I played Halo, that very famous game.  And I looked it up one day. Jocelyn: That music haunts me.   Shane: Yeah, the music haunts her.  It's not just the music. I looked it up one day and it keeps all your stats, and me, my brother, and my two best friends from high school, we lived far apart from each other when we were adults, right?  So Halo was a way that we got to connect every night. We got to get together for an hour before we had kids and we could actually play games and we got to connect virtually. When I hear Halo's music, I don't just think of the video game, I don't just think of the actual looked-up-in stats, ninety days of my life in actual hours, that I put into that game over a few years in Halo 3.  I don't think about that. I think of laughter, and I think of joy, and I think of all the good times and good conversations that I got to have with my brother who lived five hours from me, with my best friend who lived five hours from me.  Like that's what I think about. If that guy doesn't write that music that was the soundtrack of that game, then those memories don't happen and that nostalgia doesn't come back when I hear that music again.  That's your mission, bro! It's the help these people unleash music that can be used in these games, not only for them, but for all the people that are going to hear it. You've got no choice, man. You got to do this and you are expert enough. There is no degree, there's no certification that can make you more qualified for what these people need. Jocelyn: And I want to say, too, before we move on from this, think about people that you respect as leaders, just in everyday life, maybe in online business, every different area of your life.  Do you respect somebody more who is perfect and never makes mistakes, or somebody who says, "Hey, I don't know everything, but I'm going to help you. I'm going to do the best I can to help you get to the next step," and I feel like that's why people follow us because we're not perfect, we're not polished, we're just regular people who are trying to help other people have a better life.  So, who do you prefer to follow? Shane: Yeah, let me tell you a story about a guy.  This podcast may never end. We're going to talk for a while, we're just sitting back.   Daniel: This is my first day of summer break.   Shane: You're good.  Alright, cool, man.  Our kids are probably doing something right now.  I haven't seen them in about an hour, whatever. They'll be all right.  I can see the lake behind our house. So as long as they're not going into that, we're cool.   Okay, so I had a very influential man in my life who was a teacher of mine in high school.  He actually was what made me even consider being a teacher when I got a history degree because he was my history and political science teacher.   He really taught me a lot about how to argue politics, and think about deep issues and you know, look at both sides, and not be so hateful like everybody is on Facebook these days and all this other stuff.  He was very good at playing devil's advocate and arguing socratically. But that's not where he made the most influence in my life. I actually took a media class and I got to be the director and producer of our school news show when I was a senior in high school.  And I was a hoodlum! But when people see what I do now and my teachers, they're like, "Wow, you're not in jail! That's pretty amazing.”  And then when people see Jocelyn, like from her high school, they're like, "Why did you marry that guy? Because he had very great potential to go to jail.”  For him to give me a leadership position like that and give me that opportunity, it was amazing. I so appreciated it because he knew that I had a passion for the video editing, the audio editing, and the production of it.  I still have a passion for that stuff today with our podcast, with our videos and things like that. Here's why this story is so related to what we're talking about.  He took the media class because he liked the journalism aspect of it. He liked the telling stories aspect of it. He couldn't use a video editor. He could barely use a VCR.  We're going way back now. He didn't know which way to put the tape in the VCR.  It would've been upside down, inside out and he didn't understand how to use anything technology-wise.  And we had got a grant, and they had bought us all this video editing stuff. So this was like professional tape editing stuff back in the day, right?   Daniel: Yeah.  We had the same stuff.   Shane: Yeah.  So we go in and he's like, "Shane, you're the producer, you're the director.  So you've got to figure all this stuff out. I don't know how to do it, but I'm going to tell you how to organize the show.  I'm going to tell you how to lead your team. I'm going to tell you how to do this.” And we would sit in there.  I would remember me sitting at the station just slaving, I would stay hours after school.  I'd leave the school at like 8:00 in the night right after school. Loved it, editing the broadcast for the next day, and he never left me.  He was always right there beside me, and it's really emotional, thinking about it like right now, how much that changed my life because it kind of was a foundational thing for now, like what we do.   I always remember him just sitting there with his leg crossed, reading his newspaper and every once in a while, he'd look over and go, "Shane, how's it going?" Or I'd look back at him and say, "Hey, do you think this story should go before this story?  How should I edit this?" But I had to figure out the technology. He had no clue how to do it. But he taught me how to lead and he taught me how to put things in the right order and how to compose the show. And it didn't matter if he didn't know how to do the editing, and it doesn't matter if you don't know how to use the technology.   You're leading them and you're teaching them how to compose and you're pointing people in the right direction to figure it out.  He gave me the instruction manual. I just had to read it. And that's really what you're doing for your people is you're just leading them, and you're helping them compose and you're giving them the chance, the opportunity, and who knows what happens to those people 10 to 20 years from now?  That's up to them. You're going to give them the chance and they're going to pay you for it, and then some of them probably the minority are going to do something with it. It's going to be inspiring and it's going to be world changing, and that's going to be because you made the decision, "I am qualified to do this, and by God, I'm going to teach it.”  Okay. Whew!   Jocelyn: Whew! That was a lot of information.   Shane: Oh my gosh.  I'm sitting in here, teared up thinking about that guy, and how much it changed my life and it tears me up because I know we've changed lives, but not all of them, the minority because the majority can't cut it.  And if you're in the majority, you need to get over in the minority, if you're listening to this podcast. I know you can change lives and I know that everybody listening has something but they can do! All that guy did was sit beside me and read the newspaper, answer a question here and there.  He didn't answer every question. He answered maybe one question a day. We'd sit there for four hours together.   Daniel: And he just gave you the opportunity.   Shane: And he just gave me the opportunity, man.  That's what everyone listening to this podcast right now has to do, is release what you know into the world and give people an opportunity.   Jocelyn: Okay, Daniel, we have said a lot of words.   Shane: Which, for an introvert like Jocelyn, this was like triple the word count of the normal podcast.   Jocelyn: I know, my word count for the day is over, so I'm not going to be talking anymore.   Shane: Oh, yeah.  Now, my wife will not speak to me until tonight!  I know that she's going to go into her cave, watching Netflix and it's over.   Jocelyn: Okay, but in all seriousness, alright, how do you feel about all of the stuff we just said?  I know it was a lot to process, but how do you feel about that and how do you think that it can hopefully help you to move forward to the next step?   Shane: It's not what me and Jocelyn think your next step is.  It's, what do you think your next step is? Daniel: I think I need to stop trying to be everything and really focus on what I know.  As I was listening and I had been thinking about this and going through the content in the Flip Your Life community this week, I think what's kind of been slowly shifting to the surface is this idea that I know music theory, I know how to teach that.  I know how to teach the basics of composing a good tune. And that's something that is missing a lot in this niche. A lot of people go towards the technology and they go towards the audio engineering and spent hours and hours and hours and making a really basic thing sound really complicated and expensive but the music is forgettable, so it doesn't take it anywhere. So, I think I need to focus more on the piece that I know, and divorce myself from the piece that I don't need to focus on.   And then I guess in terms of specific steps, I need to come up with a core product offer I can lead people to.  Get them the end result of getting their music, getting music that is not only memorable but the music that they'll like themselves the next day, which I think is like a huge pain point.   I think that I'm thinking of like a lot of the people who get into this niche, they have these composers that they've been listening to since they've been growing up.  And there's this one Japanese composer who is like the John Williams of video game music. Shane: John Williams is the greatest composer of all time who did Star Wars -- I just want to show my nerd cred. Daniel: Well done, sir.  Well done! Tip of the hat to you.  People constantly are comparing themselves to this guy.  They always hold him up as the example that they want to aspire to.  He was fantastic at writing great melodies and he was fantastic at using, you know, really beautiful harmonies and then people go out and they write these like beats and there's no melody, and they have no idea how to get over that hump. I think it's just a piece that's missing because they went to the technology but they don't have music education, the formal education.  The technology's there, they have access to that. They've got a lot of resources to learn that, but not everyone went through a formal music education degree or knows where to look or what the problem is. Jocelyn: Right.  And I think that we can really help you craft your offer in the community.  Like, that's something that our community members can really latch onto and help you with because I really think that you need to launch something off this next challenge.  That is really, really important. So we can definitely hash through all that. Shane: And it could be ready in 21 days.   Jocelyn: Absolutely, yeah.   Shane: It's already named, it's the Video Game Music Academy, right?  So you have to open a membership area, and your whole thing is give them the training they need to write these things, and then give them a place where they can share music for you to listen to so you can tell them what to do next.  That's it! That's the whole concept of your membership, is that they need someone to show them how, a place to let people hear it, and some feedback, and then they can go and take the other courses that you make, like How to Contact the Video Game, how to submit your music, how to do that stuff.   Jocelyn: We will get into that inside the community a little bit more, and I wanted to touch on one other thing that we kind of glossed over.  It was the time aspect because we've talked about this a million times. Everyone has the same amount of time, but here's the thing: Once you can get clear on your mission, and you can get clear that you are enough of an expert or whatever mindset hurdle is holding you back, I promise that time will not be as much of an issue going forward.   Shane: You've been obsessed so far with how to monetize a product.  That's not exciting. But now, you have a passionate mission to reach into people's hearts and unleash music into the world that can change other people's lives AND maybe make those people a living.  That's deep, dude! That's going to make you find the time, that's going to push everything that's taking up your time to the side, except the things that matter, your mission, your family, your focus.  You're going to see your calendar changed dramatically over the next couple of weeks. I promise you. Daniel: Sounds good.  Sign me up! Jocelyn: Alright, Daniel.   Shane: I'm signing off.  Jocelyn usually signs off, but listen, man, I am so glad that you wrote me that email!  I'm so glad that you wrote it in the way you did, where it was a critic, but it wasn't hateful.  You let yourself be vulnerable there and you were like, "Man, I'm just frustrated, and it frustrates me that you're doing this stuff.”  I'm just really glad that you were also responsive to my feedback back to you and most importantly, that you took action because if you don't take action, right, wrong or indifferent-- I'm not going to say that that hateful email was right, wrong or indifferent.   But like if you don't take some action, right, wrong or indifferent, nothing happens.  You took action and it turned into another action, and then it turned into a better action and now you're going to take even better actions going forward.  And that's how we all get to where we want to be, is just taking action. So, hey man, I'm glad you're in the Flip Your Life community, and I cannot wait to see how you change the world through this music business and it's going to be awesome watching your journey going forward, Daniel.   Daniel: Yeah.  Thank you, thank you both!  And for anyone else who's listening, who is not sure about whether or not to finish that form, shut up and do it.  You'll feel a lot better. Like I said, I've been through a course before. I was super impressed once I got into this.  I mean, you know, everyone's in there, everyone's doing the work and I've been checking in every day and, the videos, and it's like... it's bulletproof.  At the end of every video, there's a giant yellow button telling you what to do next. I'm not confused. I know what I need to do, so I'm feeling better.  I think I know what I need to do next now, and I'm looking forward to having you help me out craft my offer. Shane: All right man.  Awesome stuff, dude!  Welcome to the community!  Let's get it going. Daniel: All right.   Shane: Hey guys.  Thanks again for listening.  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.  If you still need more help with any of the topics that we discussed today, or maybe you have a question about something that we went over, we have all the training and support you need inside of the Flip Your Life community.   With over 50 training courses on dozens of online business topics, active community forums, and live member calls with me and Jocelyn every single month, the Flip Your Life community is your opportunity to get the help and support you need to make your online dreams a reality.   And the best part is you can get started today for free.  That's right! All you have to do is go to flippedlifestyle.com/free, and you can get full unlimited access to everything we offer inside of the Flip Your Life community at no cost for 30 days.  Your first month is absolutely free! If you sign up today, you can get unlimited access to all of the courses inside of our training area, unlimited access to all of our community discussion forums, and you'll get to attend our next two live member calls with me and Jocelyn, where you can ask questions about your online business.   And it's all free for the first month.  All you have to do is go to flippedlifestyle.com/free and start your free month today.  That's flippedlifestyle.com/free. We can't wait to see you inside! Shane: Before we go we like to close every single one of our shows with from a verse from the Bible.   Today's Bible verse comes from Proverbs 11:3 and the Bible says, "Honesty guides good people.  Dishonesty destroys treacherous people.” Make sure you are always building on an honest online business that's full of integrity and you treat people the way you would want to be treated.   That's all the time we have for this week! As always, guys, thanks for listening to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast.  Until next time, get out there, take action, do whatever it takes to Flip Your Life. We will see you then. Jocelyn: Bye! Links and resources mentioned on today's show: Daniel's Website Flip Your Life community PROLIFIC Monthly Enjoy the podcast; we hope it inspires you to explore what's possible for your family! Join the Flip Your Life Community NOW for as little as $19 per month! https://flippedlifestyle.com/flipyourlife

Innovation. We love to talk about it, everyone wants it. Innovation is critical for people and organizations to grow. But we all mean different things when we say it. Today I have a conversation about how innovation is a conversation with Brian Ardinger. He's the director of Innovation at Nenet (which owns my student debt! Hi Nelnet!) and the host of InsideOutside.io, a community for innovators and entrepreneurs that produces a great podcast and a conference that brings together startup and enterprise organizations to talk innovation. There are three key conversations worth designing that we discuss and I want you to have your ears perked up for each as you listen to this episode. Each conversation can help you navigate the innovation process inside or outside your organization.  These three are the pre-conversation, the conversation about where to look for innovation and the conversation about patience. Brian specializes in a unique perspective on where to look for innovation. More on that in a moment. The Pre-Innovation Conversation Before you even start to talk about ideas or technology, it's essential to start with the end in mind. What kind of innovation is the company really looking for? Skip the pre-conversation and you have no idea of where you're heading. As Brian points out “without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with...the process itself of level setting... I don't think it takes a long time.” Brian and I didn't dive into tools to help with that conversation, so I put a few into the show notes. Mapping the innovation conversation can be done in lots of ways. One is thinking about evolutionary vs revolutionary change, another is about tangible vs intangible change, like rethinking policies or business models vs remaking product or space design.  I *just* did a webinar on this topic with my partner in the Innovation Leadership Accelerator, Jay Melone, hosted by the amazing people at Mural. Templates of the two innovation leadership frameworks we outlined are there in Mural for you to download and use, along with the webinar video to help you along. Also check out Mapping Innovation, by Greg Satell. You can download his playbook free in the show notes.  Where to look for innovation Brian's Inside/outside perspective is that innovation can be a conversation between the inside of a company and the outside world. Some innovation will happen internally, and some innovation can be brought from the outside in: the exchange and acquisition of ideas and technology from outside your organization is an important conversation for enterprise organizations to be having. When you're trying to innovate, it can be tempting to look in familiar places. If you're a financial technology firm, it can be tempting to look to fintech startups for what's next and to try to innovate through acquisition. But you'll also be looking were your competitors will be looking. Try an innovation approach based on Horizontal Evolution - look to the sides and edges of the landscape. Brian describes this approach as “playing a different ball game”.  The conversation about patience Innovation does not happen overnight. Real change takes time and that takes real patience. Brian also points out that organizations need to be having a bigger conversation, about what else needs to change to make real innovation flourish inside the organization. Hint: it's generally more than you bargained for.  As he says “Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model...And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins.” Often people think innovation is about the idea, but it's a much, much longer conversation. That is, in fact, the first “Myth of Innovation” from Scott Berkun's excellent book: The Myth that innovation is about an epiphany, not hard work. It was a real treat to have a conversation with Brian about some of these key issues...I hope you enjoy the episode and happy innovating! Brian on the Web: https://insideoutside.io/ https://twitter.com/ardinger https://www.nxxt.co/ Innovation Leadership Models from the Mural Webinar https://blog.mural.co/innovation-leadership Mapping Innovation by Greg Satell https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook-Navigating-Disruptive/dp/1259862259 Download the Playbook for Free: https://www.gregsatell.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook.pdf Horizontal Evolution https://evolutionnews.org/2015/08/horizontal_gene/ An amazing summary from Scott Berkun about his solid book, Myths of Innovation: https://scottberkun.com/2013/ten-myths-of-innnovation/ A few more gems from Greg Satell on the Rules and questions central to innovation: https://medium.com/@digitaltonto/on-december-9th-1968-a-research-project-funded-by-the-us-department-of-defense-launched-a-ee063b7585f0 https://hbr.org/2013/02/before-you-innovate-ask-the-ri Transcription: Daniel: Welcome to the conversation factory. Brian, I'm glad we made the time to make this happen. Um, the reason I'm excited to talk to you is, is that not everybody is, is open or interested in the, the analogy that a company has to have a conversation with the outside world that they can't just, you know, put up some walls and just figure everything out inside those four walls that they have to go outside and have a dialogue with the world in lots of different ways. And the way you do that is, is through helping companies think about inside innovation versus outside innovation, which is my way of like teeing up the how you, how do you talk about what you do with people when you, when you meet people, like how do you contextualize what it is that you do? Brian: Well, I think a lot of things, uh, Daniel around this particular topic, it's this whole inside/ outside innovation. It's kind of come to us over the years of working first on the outside with startups and trying to understand how do they develop new ideas and, and build things. And then, uh, you know, as I was having conversations with startups and helping them navigate that, I kept having conversations with corporations and bigger companies saying, you know, how are you doing this? How are you taking these early stage companies and through an accelerator program and that, and, and kind of getting them traction in that faster than we can do in our own walls. And so that started to have conversations with the corporations and the people inside organizations and saying, hey, how can we interact with the outside world and, and think and move and act more like a startup or, uh, become a little bit more adaptive in how we do that. So I think it was an evolution of just having conversations and figuring out what's working, what's not working in this world of change and disruption that we're living in. Daniel: Yeah. So like there's two layers here, which I think are interesting to unpack. I've learned this new term, the idea of an accelerated work environment and this idea of like, let's speed up the conversation about innovation and let's not just put our feet up and look into space and hope a great idea comes to us. Like, let's structure it and let's do it faster. And so can you talk a little bit about like how you structure an accelerator? Like what does it mean to accelerate people through the innovation process from your approach? Brian: Yeah, so I think a lot of it, like when I go in and talk to bigger companies, first thing I like to do is kind of do a level set of what does innovation even mean to the people in the room. Uh, because innovation has become such a word that's, you know, so limp, so to speak. It can mean anything to anybody. Uh, and so kind of understanding that level set of what does innovation mean to the company? How do they define it? Um, is it transformational innovation where it's, you know, we've got to become the next Uber and disrupt our industry? Or is it a innovation from the standpoint of value creation where we're looking at ways to optimize and incrementally improve what we're building? And so from that perspective, you know, it's, once you have that level set, then you can start thinking about, well, how, what are the particular tactics that you can work through depending on what kind of objectives you want to have and, and what you're trying to accomplish. Brian: So I think that's the first place we start. And then how we do that. Um, again, I think a lot of is trying to help them understand that you've got to place a lot of bets on innovation and innovation is not, um, you know, it's by default working in the new, it's working in this area of gray and this area of uncertainty, Daniel: which means there's got to be failure, right? Like there's going to have to be failure. Brian: Yeah. So, yeah, this uncertainty by default, requires you to figure out and make assumptions and, work through this... Areas of the unknown. And that's very difficult for, a lot of folks to work through. You know, especially at companies and people who are used to having a plan or having an execution model that, that they just execute on. Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model… Brian: And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins. Daniel: So...I'm comfortable with taking this seemingly simple question of like, we want to innovate more and turning it into this, really stretching it out into a much more complicated conversation. Like I'm wondering if people you deal with ever get frustrated with, (you): "well, Brian, you're just making this complicated. Like, we just want to innovate. Just teach us how to innovate. Let's get started." Versus like, let's talk about your strategic goals. Like I can see how some people might get a little impatient with the, with the bigger picture, with the strategic thinking approach. Brian: Sure. Yeah. And I think, and I think it doesn't have to take a long time on to go through that particular process, but I think if you don't start off on that common definition, then you run the risk later on. And you know, why are we doing this? Why is it not working? You know, we said that, uh, you know, we need to have x, Y, z outcome and these brand new bets that you're putting on the table are not getting us an outcome that we want. Um, but you know, without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with. So I think, so the, the process itself of level setting I don't think takes a long time to, to make that happen. And I think, but I do think in general, to change a culture or to move the company towards having that innovation mindset set or innovation as a competency to so to speak, does take a long time. Um, but you can do that through a variety of tactics and in ways that doesn't, um, change, change it all overnight. You know, it doesn't have to be something where, um, you know, you're basically creating something brand new and, and throwing out everything that you've done in the past and, and hoping that the new thing works. Uh, it's really a series of iterative bets that you kind of de-risked these new ideas as you're, as you're approaching them into the world and seeing what happens. Daniel: Yeah. Now, now here's the, the piece that I think that, that we were talking about that's interesting is that companies can innovate through outside acquisitions or through outside collaborations, like through working with startups. And maybe that makes it seem "like, wow, that's neat, there is an easier way to do this". we don't have to do it all ourselves. We can, we can turn outwards and see, uh, not just learn from other people, but actually like bring that outside innovation inside. Like, and that seems to me like, uh, a complicated process to navigate. Like how do you facilitate, how do you facilitate that conversation and make it smooth for people? Brian: Yeah. So I think, at least for a lot of folks, you know, the idea of looking outside is not become, it's not a novel concept anymore. You know, maybe five or six years ago it was like, oh, what's one of these things called startups out there? And you know, we're, we're seeing more and more hearing more and more about it. So it's, it's not a novel concept that, hey, the ability for two women in the garage or in a dorm room to spin up something and get some traction and create something of huge value in the world...that's, that's there and that's not going away. And that's speeding up. And so I think, uh, that, uh, first part of the conversation happening, having people understand that, people have the power and tools and capabilities and access to markets and cheap technology, et Cetera, to really disrupt things is there. Brian: So if we understand that, then what can we do to kind of help navigate that? And, and I think the first thing is just, you know, raise your hand and say, Hey, there are things going on outside. Let's, uh, let's take an inventory or a map on discover what's going on...and one of the, pitfalls I see a lot of companies jump into is let's look in our industry. You know, what's happening in our industry. And that's great, and that you should do that of course. But, um, that's also probably where 99% of your competitors are also playing in that same field. And so I find a lot of times it helps to look at adjacent industries or industries far and away, uh, different from your own to see what's going on, and look for clues or models or technologies or, or talent that may give you a different advantage, if you put those pieces together differently than playing, in the same ball game as your competitors are playing. So, you know, I, I see a lot of people going to these conferences and looking for startups in the fintech space and all you have are corporations in the Fintech area looking at Fintech startups where a lot of times I think, it's better to maybe go to a more of a horizontal conference and looking at AI or uh, you know, different types of data conferences and that would give you a different perspective on how those technologies could be used in your industry or in somebody else's, industry, for example. Daniel: Do you have a story like, cause it's funny as you're telling me the story, like I'm realizing this is, this is the classic innovators trick, right? Which is, yeah, it's, and it's a classic trick from nature, right? Which is, people don't realize that evolution isn't just, um, vertical where you adapt and survive. But there's horizontal transfer of, of genes in nature. Like literally the reason we have mitochondria is because we ate them, you know, a billion years ago. And all of the energy in our bodies is made by an alien organism that has its own DNA, which I find a very, it's always just like an extraordinary fact. Um, but you know, and I've been telling my clients this for a long time too. Like what do you, do you have, uh, a story to share of a surprising transfer of, of innovation from industry to industry in case there's any doubters in the world. Brian: Yeah, it's, let, I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head, but I know I've seen it on the reverse side. For example, we've seen, because I run a conference called inside, outside/innovation. And, one of the things we do is we, uh, go out and find startups in a variety of different markets, bring them to a showcase and then bring corporations around to kind of see what they're building and why and hopefully make some connections for that. And where I've seen it happen is a lot of times where, a startup will be working in a particular vertical market, early stage, uh, and they think they've got a solution in, you know, retail or whatever, and a corporation conversation will come around and they'll say, hey, I love your technology, but you're looking in the retail space. Did you know that you could apply this to insurance? Brian: And the light bulb will kind of go off in the entrepreneur's mind. It's like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to potentially go into a different market or get traction with an early customer that I didn't have before. And so I need to happen that way. Um, and I'm sure the reverse could happen as well where a corporation, uh, is, you know, looking at a variety of startups out there and say, hey, that startup's, not in our industry, but we could definitely apply that technology to what we're doing and leverage it in some way. Daniel: So that actually sparks, I mean, I definitely, I want to make sure we talk about the conference before we, before we leave, but in a way, like you said, this thing that was really interesting about startups, you know, they're, they're trying to, uh, you know, iterate and build their own, um, you know, their own growth engine. Right? Um, I would imagine that some of them are not necessarily open to this idea of like, well look, we're, we've got our roadmap and we're trying to build our own flywheel and move it, get that moving. This, they may not be open to this, this pivot or this expansion. Uh, there's like, oh, you know, well, we're just focusing on market X and like, do you want me to also like expand our, our code base so that we can also take advantage of, of why and collaborate with these guys. Like I how do you sort of, I know you've done a lot of work on building community through, through the conference. Like how do you find startups are expanding their perspectives to being open to this collaborative conversation versus like, nope, we're just doing our thing. Brian: Yeah. And I think a lot of it depends on where the startup is in their lifecycle. A lot of the folks that we bring in are probably seed stage and so they, they haven't figured out their business model. They haven't figured out the exact markets sometimes. Uh, and they're looking for that early traction. And you know, one of the reasons we hold this in the Midwest is because, you know, venture capital and the traditional ways of kind of scaling a business in Silicon Valley don't exist out here. And so you've got to find customers. You've got to find ways to, um, to, to get that early traction. And a lot of that means, you know, getting out and finding those early customers. And so having conversations with customers, uh, real people out there and trying to define what problems are out there in the marketplace and then create a solution, uh, to meet those problems and then meet the market where it's at, I think is more effective way a lot of times in the Midwest here or in places outside of your core tech hubs that don't have the, the against the, um, the advantage of getting a venture capital and being able to have a year or two young, two year runway to figure out, uh, how, where that market is. Brian: So I think, I think so part of that is that, um, I think when I'm talking to start ups, you know, I put my "accelerate" hat on and working as a person who is helping startups through that process, a lot of times I'll quite frankly tell them to stay away from corporates until they, until they figured out some of that stuff. Cause it's very easy to go down the rabbit hole of um, hey, if we just get this one big customer on our plate, we'll be good to go. But a lot of times you know that the timing of the two types of organizations don't match up and it can very, very easily kill start up really pretty quickly. Daniel: Yeah. And it can kill them in that what they're, they're focusing, they'd lose their focus or their, they spread themselves too thin. You know, so like what, what sort of, I think beautiful about what you do is that there's this symmetry in a way you have a community driven approach to innovation through the conference you do building community, but building community so that you have a group of startups who are interested in this type of thinking so that companies can have an innovation community. So they're not just going it alone, that they have a view to what's, what's open in the world for them. I mean, I guess my question is like, have you always been so community driven? Like how did you come to value community as an approach, as in a solution to, to these challenges that you're seeing? Brian: So, I mean, I guess I've always felt community is, is a way to accelerate your learning. Uh, and I think early stage ideas, no matter what they are, whether they're inside a startup or inside a corporation, the key to a lot of those taking place in actually taking hold is that the speed of learning. How fast can you, um, take your assumptions and navigate those and understand where you're on the right track or not, and, um, get to that next stage that you need to get to. So, um, community's always been away from me, uh, personally and otherwise to help accelerate those learnings, whether it's, you know, again, connecting somebody to somebody else who can, uh, an expert in a different field or, um, someone who can help me navigate to something else that I didn't know I needed. Um, and so I think it started from that perspective and it started because, uh, you know, quite frankly, when I started a lot of this stuff seven, eight years ago, uh, the, you know, entrepreneurship and startups were, were smaller, uh, both, you know, nationally as well as in our own backyard. Brian: And so part of it was like, well, if we're going to do this, we're going to, we can't do it all are ourselves. So how do we create a community that allows startups to raise their hand and first say, Hey, I want to be entrepreneurial. I want to try some things. I want to build something. In my backyard. Yeah. And then what do I need and what am I missing and how do I then can be that catalyst to help, um, folks figure that out. Uh, and so it was an evolution of just having conversations, going to different cities, uh, meeting different people, starting a podcast, you know, telling stories, um, you know, starting a new newsletter and then, uh, eventually a conference and everything else around it. Um, and then all the while, you know, consulting and helping companies kind of figure it out on both sides. Brian: And, um, it's been fun. It's been fun to see that journey and continue to figure out what the, what the next phase is as we build it out. Daniel: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I'd begs the question, what is, what's the next phase? Can you talk about it? Is it Secret? Brian: Yeah, no! Um, so yeah, so inside, outside innovation, you know, we started four years ago actually with the podcast and the original idea was it was called inside, outside, and it was an inside look at startups outside the valley with the idea that their stories, outside the tech hubs that need to be told and how can we help our entrepreneurs, uh, figure that stuff out. And so that's where it started. And again, it'll happen with further conversations as, as we built that particular audience and had conversations around those particular topics, we kept getting asked by innovators in bigger companies, you know, it's like, how are we doing this? Brian: How, how's this working? We want to be connected to startups. We want to understand this new way of innovating things like design thinking and lean startup in that work, uh, becoming methodologies and tactics that could apply to, you know, start ups outside of a big corporation or, or startups within a corporation that were trying to spin up new ideas. So through that we started the inside outside innovation podcast as the, as the way to have those conversations and talk about corporate innovation and how we're corporate matching with startups and how corporate venture play out differently and how we're internal innovation accelerators popping up all around. And what were the different tactics that folks were using through that. We've kind of created this weird community. It's almost like two communities, but the, the advantages by bringing them together, they both learned from each other. So that's kind of how, that's how it's kind of evolved. What's next? We're trying to figure out the third year of the insight off the innovation summit. Uh, we haven't got the dates and, and that solidify, but it's looking like we're probably going to do it sometime in the end of October. I'm in the process, I'm looking at writing a book around this concept of collaborative and innovation and this innovation as a competency. And then, um, we'll just continue with the podcast and the newsletter and keep growing our conversations with great people out there. Daniel: You know, Brian, it's really, it's, I mean it's, it's lovely to talk to you about this stuff because, you know, the, the ecological approach you have to this, to this processes, you know, it's, it's clearly organic. Like, like anything else, it's starting a conversation and then you've gotten feedback from the world and over time you've, you've built more than you've added to it. Like it's, it's a, it's just guy. It's a wave that is sort of, it has its ups and downs clearly. But you're just continuing to, to ride that wave, which was really awesome. Brian: What the, it comes back to, you know, my feeling is that obviously with the world changing in the, in the speed of change that's happening out there, everybody is going to have to take on some of the skillsets of, of the early innovator. You know, again, a startup entrepreneur or, um, or innovator are going to have to have kind of core capabilities or characteristics that allow you to adapt and be nimble and, and, uh, execute. Daniel: Unless you want a robot to do your job! Brian: Yeah. That's executing different ways that, that you didn't have or that were different in the way that you could execute in the past. So things like, you know, curiosity having a bias towards learning characteristics like having a, an a customer focus and this bias towards problem solving for that customer. You know, the, the skill of collaboration and you know, knowing that you can't build everything yourself. Brian: There's bias towards team, um, you know, some of the characteristics of just speed, you know, how can you have this bias towards action and experimentation. And then finally having kind of the reverse of that you are having patience and that bias towards that long term value creation. You know, I think those are some of the core concepts that make up, um, this new world that we're living in. And the more individuals, whether you're, you know, a traditional manager or a entrepreneurial founder, those are the skillsets that are going to take you to the next level in the world that we're living in. Daniel: It sounds like a good book already, Brian. I don't know. I like it. Brian: I'm still outlining. Daniel: It sounds like a pretty good proposal to me. Um, so listen, I, I, we're, we're up against our, our, our time together. Uh, is there anything I haven't asked you about that I should, that we should talk about? Any, any, any final thoughts? Brian: Yeah, I'm curious for, you've obviously been in the space of helping people have conversations and that I'm always curious to understand what have you learned from helping companies and people kind of navigate a, this world of change, uh, and in this world of innovation, what are some of the things that are obstacles or things that stand out that, uh, I could take back to my audience as well? Well, Daniel: I mean, do you have a hard stop in the next three minutes because, no, go ahead. We can go over a little bit. Well, I mean, for me, what really resonated in what you were talking about is the necessity for patients. And I think this is one thing that's really, really hard, um, for people because we want to go fast and we want to have results. Um, but we also need to slow things down. So one of the things that like I'm becoming more aware of in my own work is psychological safety, which people, you know, Google identified as like the main characteristic of effective teams. The ability, the willingness, the openness to saying what's happening, to be able to speak your mind, to say what's right or to say what's wrong. And that, I don't know, that stuff doesn't really come for free. Uh, it's a really, you have to cultivate that environment. Daniel: And so for me, you know, my angle and entry point is always that somebody, somebody has to design that conversation. Um, if a group of, you know, if a group of people is gonna talk about what we're going to do next and how to innovate, we can either contribute content or we can contribute process. Um, if the, to me, the most important and precious conversation is when a group of people is coming together, the fact that you're willing to, that you have a framework, I'm guessing, to stretch out the conversation about what's our innovation roadmap and where are we placing our bets allows people to say like, okay, what's my holistic view of this? It creates, it creates safety, right? It creates a moment where, where we can have the conversation about innovation, we can have the conversation about how we're gonna brainstorm. Daniel: We can have the conversation about how we're going to, uh, evaluate ideas and how we know if they're good or not. Um, and so for me, I think, um, I feel like I'm ranting now, but I was at a problem framing workshop, uh, with my, my friend Jay Malone, who has a company called new haircut. They do a lot of design sprint training and he was teaching a problem framing workshop. And at the end of the workshop, he presented, uh, you know, on one hand, a very straightforward, like, here, this is what problem framing is in the essence. Like, uh, who has the problem, uh, why does it matter? Um, when does it happen? Uh, like, you know, think about like, where to play and how to win. And this one woman said like, well, yeah, what about, uh, uh, how do we know when it's been solved? You know, how do we know if it's working? And this is, I think one of the biggest challenges with, with companies is we don't know like what good looks like. We don't know when to start. We don't know how to stop working and grinding it out. Um, well, and the metrics Brian: are so different from existing business model versus a new business model that you don't even know who the customers are and the value proposition you're creating at the beginning. Daniel: Yeah. So I mean, for me, like I find the, one of the biggest challenges of innovation is that people bring me in to say like, okay, let's help this team coach through this process. Meanwhile, they've already got a job that takes 100% of their time. Um, and they look at me and they're like, this guy has just given us extra work to do. You know, the workshop that I come in is taking them away from their quote unquote real job. The, the work that I asked them to do to go out and do the interviews and to, to get customer contact looks like it's taking away time for them. And so this idea that that innovation's like something you can buy or pay someone else to do. To me, I want people to be earning their own innovation. But the problem is that most people are at 110% capacity. Daniel: And You bring in somebody like me who says, okay, let's do some design thinking stuff. Let's do a, you know, even if it's a week long sprint, which doesn't give you everything you need, you know, if it's a six week process, it's people are like, Oh man, that was great, but oh, that was hard and I never want to do that again. It's like, it's really, really challenging to get people to find time to innovate. And that's frustrating to me. Brian: Absolutely. Daniel: As a person who just really wants people to get their hands dirty with it so that they value it and, and participated in it. So, I don't know. I don't know what the balance is there. That's... I don't know. I don't know if that's a question with an answer, but Brian: I don't know if there's a clear answer for that one. No, no. Daniel: that, oh, so, yeah, I mean that, that's, that's, that's my perspective. I don't know if that, if that's helpful to you at all, but that's, that's… Brian: Very much so, very much so. Daniel: Is there, is there anything else we should I this, this is definitely the shortest episode. You know, I'm, I'm sort of enjoying or slash you know, floundering in the, in the 30 minute time zone. So I just want to make sure that we've covered everything that you want to cover … Brian: No, it's been great, thanks for having me on the show and the opportunity to talk about insideoutside.io and everything we're doing. Daniel: Yeah. So like that's the, that's the final question. Like where, uh, where can people find all things insideoutside and Brian Ardinger on the Internet. Brian: Yeah. Thanks Daniel. Yeah. So, uh, obviously you can go to the website insideoutside.io that has our podcast, our newsletters sign up for that. Um, and obviously I'm very, um, out there on Twitter and Linkedin in that happy to have conversations. So reach out and say hi. Daniel: Well we will do that. Um, Brian, I really appreciate you taking the time. It's really, it's always interesting to have some patience and just slow down and have some of these conversations about this stuff, that's I think really, really important. Like you said, the future is unwritten and uncertain and all of us need to have skills of adaptability, the inside and I think both sides of the ecosystem that you're a co-creating - the innovator, the startups need to learn from big companies how to scale and big companies need to learn from startups, how to be more nimble. So I think it's really a really important dialogue that you're facilitating. It's really cool. Brian: Thanks for having me on the show!

Nich is a 28-year-old convert to the church and has been married to Kelsey for almost 2 years now. Father to the almost 1-year-old Evelynn. Having dealt with depression and ADHD for most of my life but not getting diagnosed and treatment until my mid-20's caused a lot of problems that were not approached until they were deeply ingrained. Overcoming those problems while also learning marriage and fatherhood has brought the issues to the forefront where the work has been done and continues to be done.Kelsey is a 26-year-old from Provo, UT (born, raised, and still living there and an active member of the Church). She and Nich have been married just shy of two years and are the parents of an 11-month-old baby girl. She struggles with high stress and anxiety, which combined with Nich's depression and ADHD projects a steep learning curve in motherhood and wife-hood (wife-ing?). As the daughter of Dan and Julie, she has been following Dan's research and culture-changing methods for years and says "Dan may not be involved in the day-to-day of our relationship, but his ideas certainly are."[music]0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthened their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have in studio my daughter and son-in-law, and they're gonna be talking about navigating communication while struggling with anxiety and depression. So we wanna welcome you here and appreciate you taking the time. They actually volunteered, they said they wanted to talk about this, so I appreciate them being vulnerable and willing to share their personal experiences about the difficulties and maybe even successes of dealing with anxiety and depression in the relationship and how you navigate those discussions. So let me turn it over to Kelsey and Nich and have you introduce yourself and tell us some more details about your struggles.0:01:17 Kelsey: Well, we've been listening in on and learning about what my dad talks about through the groups that he does and stuff like that and we wanted to be a part of this if we could. I'm Kelsey, my husband is Nich and we have an 11th month old cute little girl. And...0:01:43 Daniel: She is cute. [chuckle]0:01:45 Kelsey: And we live in Utah in Provo, we're both active members of the Church.0:01:52 Nich: We just renewed our temple recommends actually before we came out.0:01:56 Kelsey: Yes, we did. We were visiting Dan, my dad, and my mom in California and so we get this opportunity to be together today.0:02:06 Nich: Yeah.0:02:07 Daniel: You wanna tell us more, Nich?0:02:09 Nich: Yeah, I am a convert to the Church, grew up in a non-denominational house, and then when I was almost 20, so about eight years ago, I joined the Church and varying levels of activities since then but we actually met on the mission.0:02:28 Kelsey: Yeah, we served our mission, missions, is it plural or singular?0:02:33 Nich: Singular, yeah.0:02:34 Kelsey: We served our mission in Seattle, Washington. So we were in the same MTC group, actually, so we started at the same time and then I got home five-and-a-half months before he did. So that's kind of a fun aspect of our relationship. We have the mission to share with each other. And Nich mentioned that he joined the Church about eight years ago. I'm 26, he's 28. So that's about where we are in life.0:03:05 Daniel: Yes. So who's, I realize there's a bleed of emotions here, or not bleeding, but an overlap rather. Who's the one who struggles with anxiety and who's the one who struggles with depression?0:03:20 Kelsey: I struggle with anxiety and Nich has the...0:03:24 Nich: We could go both. We could say both.0:03:26 Kelsey: Grand experience of having both.0:03:27 Daniel: I, thank you, that's absolutely true but Nich is the one who struggles predominantly with depression and anxiety is Kelsey. So, you've been married for how long?0:03:41 Nich: One month short of two years.0:03:43 Kelsey: Yeah.0:03:44 Nich: So almost two years.0:03:45 Kelsey: One month short of two years.0:03:45 Nich: So, mathematically our daughter was born eight days before our first anniversary.0:03:51 Kelsey: Yup. [chuckle]0:03:53 Daniel: So tell us about what it's been like? Now, let's start in your dating phase. So you guys knew each other on the mission. We don't necessarily need... You weren't dating on the mission, but I think you had exposure to each other's personalities there. But let's focus more on the dating phase. Did you, how did you navigate anxiety and depression? Was it something that was present in the dating phase?0:04:20 Kelsey: Well, I think we had a sense of what each other kind of struggled with just from knowing each other on the mission. I knew that Nich had things he was working on... I mean, then elder Henry, it's weird to refer to him in that now, but I knew he had things he was working on, 'cause when we were on MTC together, he would get called down and go and have a session with his therapist there or what I thought was probably a therapist, I'd kind of fill in the blanks. So we knew a little bit that we struggled then. Actually on our first date, I remember saying some of my struggles and then saying, I cannot play therapist girlfriend, so I cannot be just, like if I'm gonna be in a relationship with you, it needs to be... I can't just play the emotional help card.0:05:11 Daniel: So, Kelsey, let me pause there 'cause the audience doesn't know who you are and I understand why you said that, but hearing that for the first time, I think will sound a little cold. You wanna give it a little background on why you said on the first date you're not gonna play therapist girlfriend, do you mind sharing a little bit about that?0:05:28 Kelsey: Yeah. So the reason why I said that is 'cause I'd had previous relationships where my boyfriend had some pretty deep struggles and I assigned myself the responsibility for his emotions. And I've always taken that as I was self-sacrificing and I'm helping and I need to be there for them but I would... All of their emotional struggles were suddenly my responsibility, and I think that can be really loving, but I also found that it was really tiring and that I put an unhealthy load on myself. Yeah, it was just an unhealthy amount of responsibility I assigned to myself, that I needed to be the one to help them navigate all of their emotional struggles.0:06:25 Daniel: You put a 110% into your relationships. And a couple of the boyfriends that you had previously struggled with severe depression, and there was definitely that... I'm gonna use the term "co-dependency," That enmeshment, where you felt a lot of responsibility for their emotions. So, here, meeting Nich, recognizing he's very open about his depression, he made that clear. And you're pragmatic, so you don't mince your words, but it wasn't... I guess, let me ask. Nich, I wasn't there. Was that a shock to hear Kelsey say that?0:07:00 Nich: I wouldn't say it was a shock. It was actually, in my opinion, quite refreshing. Because in my past, I had had people try to do that to me, and I think both Kelsey and I struggled with co-dependency in previous relationships. And having that honesty at that moment showed that this would be something more than just a nice, fun relationship. It would be something that would, actually, be a serious relationship that we wanted to have and that would help both of us with that, and not help each other in bad ways.0:07:32 Kelsey: Yeah, we jumped into being pretty serious pretty quickly. And "serious" is a vague word, but we were okay with being really emotionally open really fast. Once he got home from his mission, we started going on dates. And I think part of that was just that we were really willing to be open with each other about the struggles that we had, and along with... See, you said that me saying right off the bat that I didn't wanna be a therapist girlfriend was cold, along with...0:08:11 Daniel: Just the way you said it here. I just didn't want the audience...0:08:13 Kelsey: Right, yes. [chuckle]0:08:15 Daniel: "I don't know who you are, Nich, but I'm not gonna be your therapist girlfriend."[chuckle]0:08:18 Daniel: I just want the audience to know that that's not what went down.0:08:21 Kelsey: No, no, there was some background with that, and I had a follow-up comment.0:08:26 Daniel: "Great, you wanna go out to dinner now?"[chuckle]0:08:29 Kelsey: Oh, I said with that... 'Cause we continued to have a conversation about that, 'cause it was... We felt it was gonna be a big thing to navigate in our relationship. But part of the conversation then was that I didn't want to assign myself the responsibility for all of his emotional struggles in that unhealthy way that I had before. But at the same time, I told him that I wanted him to know that I wanted to hear about it when he was struggling, I didn't want him to feel like he was alone.0:09:05 Daniel: That's a great, great clarification. You weren't abandoning him, you weren't saying, "I'm not gonna be a part of this." You were saying, "I wanna do this right. I'm gonna learn how to do this in a healthy way." And that's Evelyn, your daughter, in the background. Everybody can hear.0:09:21 Kelsey: She's looking at us funny, 'cause we're wearing headphones. [chuckle]0:09:25 Daniel: Yeah. And so, I think that was a very appropriate thing to do. And Nich, you were saying, that was refreshing. What was your experience like in previous relationships?0:09:38 Nich: Not good, but that's because most of my relationships before that had happened in high school, which no one's had a great relationship in high school, except for the very rare people. And so, it felt a lot more mature and adult in that sense. And that's what made it so refreshing, was it didn't feel like I'd be dating someone that wasn't emotionally mature at all, but someone that was comfortable in who they were and what they actually wanted in their life and relationships at the time.0:10:10 Daniel: So, why was it distracting or not helpful in your relationship for others to feel like they had to save you? Or... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What was difficult about those relationships where they were taking that responsibility?0:10:27 Nich: It was enabling. I felt...0:10:29 Daniel: You recognize that?0:10:30 Nich: Yeah. In retrospect, I recognize that. At the time, I'm an idiot and don't recognize it.0:10:37 Daniel: I wouldn't say that, but it is hard to recognize that in the moment.0:10:41 Nich: I personally was an idiot. If anyone else is feeling that, that's up to them to decide what that feels like. But really, looking back on it, it was super enabling, and it made it easy for me to subconsciously manipulate my way through the relationship in that sense, then.0:11:00 Daniel: So, what did you do? You had a few dates, testing up the relationship. Tell us how it started to develop.0:11:07 Kelsey: Well, at the risk of just sounding super Mormon-y, one of the reasons that we were okay with being so emotionally serious so fast is because we both felt really strongly in a spiritual way, the Spirit prompted us that we were meant to really dive into this relationship and really try to make it work. And we felt pretty soon into the relationship, probably less than a month, that, "This," in Nich's words, "could be it." Search could be over, we could make this work long-term and be together and get married and raise a family. And so, that was the guiding force, factor, in the beginning of our relationship, was just, we really wanted to dive in and follow what we felt like God would want us to do with each other and for each other.0:12:01 Daniel: So, you set these healthy boundaries at the beginning, you felt the Spirit in your life, and I would call that authentic, super-Mormon-y. Gosh, I'm gonna struggle speaking today. I get what you're saying there, but it sounds very authentic. You both were praying about this, you're trying to figure it out. You liked each other, you established those healthy boundaries. So was it easy from there on out?0:12:30 Kelsey: No, not at all.0:12:32 Daniel: So what was the... Well, go ahead, go ahead.0:12:35 Kelsey: I think when anybody's dating even if you're really emotionally mature and are open with each other, there's things that don't fully get opened up because you're dating... You're learning about each other, you don't just... You're not an open box right, right from the start. And in all honesty... We were engaged by Easter, so we started dating in after Christmas time, and then we were engaged by Easter, so it was pretty quick. So, obviously, we couldn't have known everything about each other's emotional struggles and how to navigate that. And then less than a year into marriage, add the responsibility of a baby into there. So no, it hasn't. It's definitely been bumpy, trying to navigate each other's way of thinking and emotional needs and that's, I guess, that's kind of what we wanna focus today.0:13:27 Daniel: Yeah, so share with us the first time in your dating relationship this became an issue, issue meaning you're facing the realities of depression and anxiety and how it was affecting your relationship. So the first part, when did you experience your first difficulty? However you wanna define that, whether it was major or something that you consciously had to navigate, what was that like and how did you navigate it?0:14:00 Kelsey: So I would say the first one was, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nich, but when we were... Because we knew that we could try to be pretty serious and that we were wanting to go towards getting engaged and getting married pretty early and actually Nich was having struggled feeling like he was accepted into my family because they didn't know him, right, they hadn't even met him. And all of a sudden it's like, I want you to meet Nich and we're probably gonna get married. And Nich had expressed to me once that growing up in a non-denominational Christian household, he had this idea that getting married to an LDS girl means being kept in this open arms LDS family and he felt a little bit judged, because my family was wary because we were getting together so quickly and they didn't even know who he was.0:15:00 Kelsey: So I would say that was probably the first struggle that we had to navigate is him not feeling like he was immediately accepted into my supposedly in traditional LDS family, which I don't think we're very traditional at all. If, I don't know how much Dan has shared in the podcast before, but Dennis, my step dad, and so I have two sets of parents that are both wonderful, and so that's in and of itself, not very traditional. And Nich wasn't feeling very accepted by any of the four of them plus my sisters for a while there. And I think that's probably... That first time we had to navigate through.0:15:36 Daniel: Yeah, and I'll speak from the perspective of the family and that was accepting, I think, we were pretty accepting, I think, we were very cautious because we didn't know Nich and we knew the struggles with depression and the tendency for you to date with individuals with depression. And I wanna pause there real quick, 'cause again, we have a variety of listeners and when we talk about anxiety and depression, I think it might be good to put a level on that. And so it's not just your common anxiety. Kelsey, you clarify, there's a high level, you're a high-functioning very anxious person. And Nich, how would you describe your depression?0:16:20 Nich: I would say that I typically am very high functioning with it. I do still struggle with suicidal thoughts occasionally, and Kelsey I have talked about that, not as much as we probably should thinking about it, but I've attempted suicide in the past. It's made it that there are days that I just feel completely shut down but I can still get out of bed, I can still do things. So it's not to that level and it never has been, but it's a lot more emotionally taxing. And then you mix that with me being a pretty severe introvert where I can get socially tired listening to a podcast, that it makes it nearly impossible in those moments to want to reach out and talk to anyone because I feel like I'm already exhausted from my depression, just talking to someone's gonna make it even more tiring.0:17:10 Daniel: Yes, yes and we were aware of that, and so we weren't actually at the time aware of how severe the depression was but we knew that we were being cautious and so rightfully so, you're absolutely correct. There was a concern for us and we didn't know Nich and it wasn't that we didn't wanna accept him in and it was just who is he and we were concerned. Were you getting pulled into another relationship that you felt like you to care and you were showing signs of maturity, way beyond your previous relationships. And I think that put a lot of ease in to Mom and I's side of it. Yeah, that we...0:17:47 Kelsey: I think because of the other relationships, I right off the bat, recognized that there was the potential for me to want to become the what I had been named the therapist girlfriend, the caretaker girlfriend, the emotional support system for everything that depression, anxiety, and actually ADHD, all piles up together. And so we knew going into it, I didn't know the depth. And I think we're still learning the depth of what each other is struggling with emotionally but we knew going into it, that there would be... That we would need to be able to focus on those kind of differences and that we needed to do it while still remaining healthy, and that I wanted to make sure that I didn't simply... How do I word that? The word that just keeps coming to me is assigning unnecessary responsibility.0:18:41 Daniel: That's huge. It is very hard to communicate that because in a relationship you care about each other. And the last thing you wanna see is the other person suffering, and that is difficult when somebody struggles with anxiety or depression, you wanna rescue them, that's a very natural... Or you wanna make it more comfortable or you wanna be... You want your love to be able to heal and uplift that person and it is hard to describe. And that's why we generally use the words or phrases setting healthy boundaries which we were seeing, and we were very impressed. And it sounds like, Nich, you were appreciating that. So what was one of these times, at the beginning of your relationship where you had to really focus on being mindful with these boundaries?0:19:33 Kelsey: I'm remembering right after we got married, or not right, before we got married, actually, Nich was trying to navigate. He had done some school before his mission and he was trying to navigate what life choices he wanted to make now, the big life decisions. Like do I want to go to school so I wanna go to a trade school, do I wanna, how am I gonna start a career? And obviously with having, being majorly introverted, so the whole build up a network and make all these friends was not his cup of tea at all, that was an nope right out of that one, but he also didn't wanna just sit around and do nothing and stew, because that builds up anxiety, which depression and anxiety are such friends with that. You wanna talk more about how you were feeling then, 'cause that was a big thing?0:20:20 Nich: Yeah, 'cause I made it so much worse, because it was... At the time I was 25, 26-ish, and I had done some school before and failed miserably at it, for a lot of mental health issues, and not knowing exactly what I wanted to do is my life but felt like, well, that's what you do after you graduate high school, you go to college. And so we had that, and I simply felt that there was nothing that I was qualified to do and that anything I did choose to do schooling-wise or anything would take several years, I wouldn't be able to support the family and all of that. And it was a huge drain and when we were talking about it, I don't know if Kelsey remembers this, but I remember well, 'cause it was something I was thinking, but thinking that one of the things that I really wanted to do was make that decision for me and not... Let Kelsey help, let her inform and have her opinion, but that if it wasn't something that I chose to do and wanted to do that I really wouldn't be happy in whatever choice I made in that.0:21:36 Daniel: So you're recognizing that in your fear of the future, you didn't have clarity there, you didn't wanna fall into the habit of depending on Kelsey to guide through this, you had this desire to differentiate, is what we call it, and to make this decision on your own. That's an interesting experience because, with depression and setting healthy boundaries in this relationship, it's important to have that distinction, but there's also a risk that you're doing it all alone and not receiving help. Did you experience that?0:22:10 Kelsey: The first thing that comes to mind with that is that I like to have a plan. It eases my anxiety. I like to know exactly what's gonna happen and how I'm supposed to be involved with it. So, while I knew that he needed to make this decision on his own when... And he had a job then that he didn't really like, he worked with a hotel chain, which is a fine hotel chain, but this particular management wasn't awesome, so he would come home angry and not satisfied with where he was at, and I would just want him to make a plan for how he could be more positive, how he could move in the direction that he wanted to. And I kinda wanted to be able to...0:22:45 Daniel: Make Nich happy.0:22:46 Kelsey: Make Nich happy and lay out steps that would make it work, and like the now steps were, okay, well, you can only change you. And I would give them all of the motivational talk about that and then what do we wanna do to make it so that you can move out, maybe get out of this job or see if there's opportunity for promotion or whatever it is. And I wanted there to be a plan that eases my anxiety. And because he was expressing that he wanted to make this decision on his own, I was thinking, well, then, am I not allowed to say anything? This is all up in the air. It's making my anxiety spike so much and I wanna help you, but I also know that your emotions are your responsibility but I don't like feeling this tension between us, because you haven't figured your life out. It's really hard and I think all recently married couples kind of experience that, because usually you're still finishing school, or you've just finished school and you're figuring out what kinds of things feel like your life.0:23:43 Kelsey: And I was really worried about Nich, because he had told me that school was such a... Just a not good experience before his mission, and so we wanted to find something else, but me being someone who was like on the regular track, I went to high school, then went to BYU and graduated from BYU and so I was like, well, that doesn't make sense, you just do the thing so you can feel confident that you have the school you want. And I knew that he was gonna be a little less traditional with that and I didn't know how to help him navigate it, but I also wanted to help him not be so unsatisfied and hence depressed with the way that he was thinking, and so that was a huge... It still is kind of a big thing to navigate, even though he has more of a life plan now. I need to... My need for a plan makes it so that I bug him about it a lot, and that increases both of our anxiety, even though I'm trying to assuage mine.0:24:37 Daniel: Not knowing what Nich's plan was, was spiking your anxiety.0:24:40 Kelsey: Oh, a ton.0:24:41 Daniel: So you're dealing with a handful of things there, wanting Nich to be happy and help him while also managing your own anxiety. You don't know what's happening tomorrow, a year from now, we're getting married and we need to figure this out. And so you're trying to nail it down and trying to figure out what's your part? A great example there. So what was your experience like, Nich, in that experience?0:25:06 Nich: The big thing is, and Kelsey and I have talked about this several times since then, is that Kelsey needs to let me be happy in the way that I am happy. And that's really difficult, 'cause usually she gets so anxious about it 'cause it's like, but you need a plan that I like, which makes sense, you wanna plan that you like. That's what everyone wants in their life. But what we've had to navigate with that is that my way of going about and thinking about things isn't nearly as plan-oriented as hers is and it... That's difficult, but it's because I've set up a lot of plans in my past and they never came to fruition, and I felt really hurt by all of that and so I've been trying to figure out, okay, how do I set a goal and a plan without it actually not coming to fruition, therefore it really hurts.0:26:05 Daniel: Which feeds into your depression and your sense of failure.0:26:08 Nich: Bcause I'm like, "Well, I couldn't even accomplish that," and that's why I didn't wanna go to, why I was so apprehensive about school again and feeling that about a career was I've had all these major plans and failures in the past, that's just gonna repeat itself again because look at what's already happened, which getting married should have shown that not true to be... Not to be true, but...0:26:32 Kelsey: Something that comes to mind too, with all of this, is not only do I like to have a plan. A huge difference between me and Nich is that I like to talk things out until they make sense and I like to keep saying more words, even if we're talking to...0:26:50 Daniel: It's already getting overwhelming, isn't it?0:26:52 Kelsey: Until it makes sense, because that's how I like to plan, I like to be on the same page, and I feel like the best way to do that is to talk it out, but the way that Nich thinks is more, I'm not gonna say anything until this whole thing is more formulated in my mind. And so I'm sitting here like, why is isn't he saying anything, and why can't we have a conversation about this and why is he keeping all this from me, and he needs to do this by himself, but I wanna be in on it, and... And my thoughts are that fast. Just little fireballs. I don't know what he's thinking, and I want to, and I want to contribute to what he's thinking, and there's been a lot of times when I'll ask a lot of questions and then Nich will say, Kelsey, I'm thinking about this, I don't want you to think, I'm not thinking about it at all, I am I'm just not ready to formulate it into a conversation.0:27:43 Kelsey: And that stresses me out because I like talking things through, even when they don't make. Especially when they don't make sense to myself yet. I'll talk through something that I'm worried about till I'm blue in the face, and Nich will not say a word, and then I'll be like, "So what, so what are you thinking?" He's like, "A lot of things. I can't talk about it 'cause I'm thinking so many things you just laid a lot on me." So I'm a talker. He's a thinker, and I think out loud, and he thinks in his head. So those are very polarized when we... Especially if we're both feeling anxious. The more anxious I feel, the more I want to talk, the more anxious he feels, the less he wants to talk as the more he wants to just be like, just let me be by myself. I'm gonna put on noise canceling headphones and I don't hate you, but I want out.0:28:31 Daniel: Let me go think, give me room to think. So what did you do? So here, you're noticing these difficulties, not easy, it's very messy. What did you do, how did you or have you learned to navigate that in a way that's supportive of each other, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that your anxiety is going down. For example, one thing you said is Nich will say, "I can't talk about this, I'm definitely thinking about it." But that would spike your... So on one hand he's communicating, he's saying, I need you to back off. Let me... Give me some space here, which is great communication, but stressful to you because it's not the information that supports you. And so have you two found a way to navigate?0:29:23 Kelsey: Well, we even had to work up to... Like me being able to read that that's what he was saying 'cause sometimes he wouldn't actually say, "I can't do this right now. I can't have a conversation, but I am thinking about it." He would instead kinda just halt the conversation. He's continuing the conversation in his brain, but he would halt the conversation with me and either put on his ear buds or go into a different room, and I'm just like, "We weren't done, where are you going?" And he'd be like, "I was done with that conversation right now," and then I think that he just wants to drop it and he's being very uncaring and it's just, I'm saying all these things about how he's mad at me now, and he's annoyed. So we've had to work up to me knowing that what that means isn't, "I'm mad and you've offended me," but instead, "That's a lot to process. I'm thinking about it. I wanna shelve this conversation and start it up another time," and the more that I bring it up like, "Oh, have you thought about that yet?" Twenty minutes later, the more anxiety he has.0:30:22 Kelsey: And so I just have to... Okay, I realize now, it's hard for me, but I have to say, okay, I probably shouldn't bring this up again until he brings it up, which for me needing a little bit is going into our bedroom and saying a prayer and then I'm fine. For him, it could be, it could be 20 minutes if he really wants to talk about it, right then but it can also be five days, and five days is a really long time for someone who wants to talk about things right now.0:30:51 Daniel: Yes, it is.0:30:51 Kelsey: And we've had to build up to a spot where I'm getting to be a little bit more okay with him needing to shelf it and that's hard. And then I'm sure I make it harder for him when I keep bringing it up over and over and over again.0:31:10 Daniel: I appreciate what you said, though, you recognize that's what he needs and a mistake that a lot of couples make, and I'm sure his... It's a tendency, I don't... It's probably not fair to say it's a mistake, it's a very natural tendency to say, "Oh, Nich isn't talking to me. If he loved me, he would understand he needs to talk to me." And it becomes not about the depression, but the degree of love in the relationship, you start to assign degrees of love. Him walking away is an indicator he doesn't love me, and that's a dangerous place to be in, because it has very little to do with love when our minds are running wild, our depression's kicking in. Our anxiety's kicking in. So what I was hearing is you were consciously keeping it on the forefront of your mind, okay? He's not trying to hurt me, he's not falling out of love with me, he's not doing this because he hates me, he's struggling. And then you would go say a prayer to help manage your own anxiety. Is that successful every time? Do you do find going and praying, is the right balm for you?0:32:23 Kelsey: When I'm in the right enough mindset to decide to go do that, yes. A lot of the times it's, "No, I wanna sit here and I wanna hash this out until it's done," and there can't be any other thing that happens.0:32:35 Daniel: And that's how we got our taxes done. Oh, boy. Sometimes you do... You have to, right, because there's a deadline. I may wanna address that in a minute, here, but so, but specifically for you, what are some other ways maybe that you...0:32:49 Kelsey: Well, and you say that it would have had to be on the forefront of my mind and I have had... That's a subconscious narrative all the time is this, "Well, if he's abandoning conversation, does that mean he doesn't actually care about how I feel? And he just is fed up with me and he wants to be just done with this." And then of course if I'm in a high anxiety mode I escalate done with this conversation, to done with me and like he wants to leave now, and I don't know when he's gonna come back, and that doesn't happen.0:33:19 Daniel: Leaving is not the marriage. Out the door, take a walk, is that what you mean?0:33:24 Kelsey: Right. Well, like I said, when I'm feeling really, really anxious sometimes I think... Well, for the sake convenience he probably wouldn't divorce me, but he wants to be gone. I would think he doesn't want to be in this right now. He wants an escape. And...0:33:42 Daniel: You mean as an excuse? I don't wanna deal with this. I'm leaving.0:33:47 Kelsey: Yeah, kind of. And when I say leaving, I realize that that can be vague, and I kinda joke that... We want to stay together. We've, I come from a family that has divorce and remarriage and from the beginning we were like, "We have some things to work through. We are going to have things to work through, but we wanna stay together." And so I know that I don't ever have to be afraid that he's literally going to want to leave as in divorce me, but I think he doesn't wanna be dealing with this right now, and that means he doesn't wanna be dealing with me and that can create a lot of...0:34:22 Daniel: You internalize and it becomes part of your anxiety. So what do you do to get yourself out of that, that mindset?0:34:30 Kelsey: Up until super recently, actually, I needed him to talk me out of it, I really craved for him to say, "No, that's not how I'm feeling. I don't wanna leave you, I'm overwhelmed by the situation, but it's not your fault and I'll work through it, just give me some time." And when he wouldn't say things like that, but I was just supposed to infer it, and I didn't realize that yet, I would be really scared that like, "He's fed up with me, he doesn't wanna be in this relationship, he wants an out," and so that's something that now that he has told me some of the things that go through his head in those high anxiety moments, I can kind of remind myself of that when a high anxiety moment comes back again that he doesn't need to say it every time. And like I said, up until recently, I wanted him to say it every time, every argument I wanted him to say what he was feeling and reassure me and I realized that that's not who he is and that my need for validation of my emotions was very high.0:35:38 Kelsey: It still is, I'm working on it, but... And that I can remind myself of what he's told me in the past and trust what he's told me in the past without needing to hear it every single time he got angry or anxious or upset or whatever...0:35:50 Daniel: Overwhelmed.0:35:51 Kelsey: Title you want to call the emotion. Because I needed the validation every time and I'm currently working on being able to trust what he's already said and not needing a repeat on the validation every time.0:36:05 Daniel: What you're describing there is, I think, such an important takeaway. I assure you that there are many listening to this who also struggle with anxiety, depression and what you just described is breaking a cycle. I liked the words you said, your need for validation... Validation is valid, alright, it's... And there's this very... There's this interesting place because we feel love, we feel connection when we have those feelings validated, but what you're experiencing is this escalation of depression and anxiety. And you just said exactly that. I knew I needed him to reassure me that he wasn't gonna leave, but then you said, I had to remember our previous conversations, and that's where I found comfort, and it's still hard.0:37:03 Daniel: So there's this interesting place where your anxiety is driving the need for the validation versus the actual need for validation. And I wanna be careful with that, 'cause that's a very difficult place to differentiate and discern because when your anxiety and depression are kicking in, it's a concrete need, isn't it? It's like, tell me you're not leaving now, but you're recognizing, okay, no, no, no, no, this is my anxiety, I need to, I need to take responsibility, just as much as I told Nich he needs to take responsibility for his depression. That's impressive. And that is a very difficult place to be in.0:37:41 Kelsey: And just as a follow-up to that, sometimes it'll even be while I'm trying to remind myself and trust the things that he's told me in the past, I'll actually say things like, "This is what I'm feeling from you, I'm worried about this. Would it be truthful of me if I said his is what you're thinking right now?" And then because I said the words and he didn't need to, 'cause he's not feeling put together enough to say it, he'll then be like, "Yes, that's right." And then I could reassure myself without needing him to do it, but I needed a little extra assurance of him confirming what I've trusted from him before, if that makes sense.0:38:20 Daniel: Wonderful, yeah. Nich, anything to add to that?0:38:24 Nich: I would say, for me, a lot of the time, the word that we've been using a lot recently is that we feel overwhelmed with anxiety or depression or just our emotions in general, and like Kelsey's been saying for her it's... She blasted at you. I would go beyond a shotgun to like a machine gun effect on it sometimes, versus so much in such quick succession, and terrible accuracy at the same time, because that's what you end up doing. Well, for me, it becomes my mind becomes foggier and foggier and foggier and that's why it becomes so difficult for me to want to reach out and actually cut through that and recognize that those moments when she's like, "This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. Is that accurate?" And it's like, "Okay, the words are there. I can agree or disagree with that, and that can provide me some clarity and some guidance through that right now."0:39:22 Nich: And so that's always been beneficial to me, but I also have to keep it at the front of my mind, some of those times where it's, okay, I only have half a sentence right now, I have to trust that if I begin that, that will cut through and provide my clarity for me and that I can actually start to talk and actually can break out of this right now, even though I feel absolutely terrified that I don't know where the sentence is ending and I don't wanna be Michael Scott from The Office, thank you.0:39:52 Kelsey: Yeah, that's a huge thing too, is that when I'm feeling anxious, I obviously I want him to respond, I want him to tell me what he's thinking, and he doesn't like to unless he's done thinking, which can take days or more.0:40:11 Daniel: Or more. Is this complete silence or is it just on that particular point or topic, or does it depend?0:40:19 Nich: It's usually on that point or topic, I would say, because if we can, if we end up changing the topic to something more...0:40:24 Kelsey: Light.0:40:25 Nich: Light, yeah, less serious like, "Oh, what are we gonna do for dinner," which typically ends up, "I don't know, let's figure that out," or like, "Oh, okay," then we just take a break and then it's, "Hey, what's on TV," or something like that, that can break it out, because then it's a new direction, a new focus and I don't feel the pressure to respond.0:40:50 Daniel: A distraction.0:40:50 Nich: Yeah.0:40:51 Kelsey: But when we are really, when... Well, maybe it's just me, when I'm really focused on a topic, because again, I want to hash it out all right then, and I'll say everything that's on my mind. And then if it's just like nothing, just like, not even crickets, I won't even say crickets, just nothing.0:41:08 Daniel: The crickets are scared.0:41:09 Kelsey: And then I feel like I've just left this big emotional blob and then a slight inquiry at the end and I'm getting nothing and then that spikes my anxiety. Because in those moments, it is complete silences. I don't wanna talk about any of what you've just said at all right now because it's all running through my head, and that can be hard to deal with, but again, I will say I have learned that I need to say what I need after I've expressed all that stuff. If I have the clarity to say it beforehand, I'll say, okay, I'm feeling a lot of emotions, this is what I need right now. If it's either listen or confirm if what I'm feeling is crazy or not, then I'll spill out everything, and then because I've already told him what result I need from him, he can respond. And sometimes when I'm not feeling clarity enough to do that, I will say all the stuff because I'm overwhelmed and then say, "Okay, now that I've said all of that I realized that what I need from you right now, is blank."0:42:15 Kelsey: And then that gives us both something to focus on, and often I solve my own problem, but sometimes, often, he can help me solve it, now that I've given him something more narrow out of my big emotional balloon I just popped in his face.0:42:29 Daniel: So what I like about that is you're communicating right now. I know you can't, so I'm putting it, obviously, in my words, but is how I'm gonna summarize it. It sounds like, Nich, you're overwhelmed, and I see that. I also have a need to verbalize what's going on here, and this is what I'll probably need afterwards. What do you do in those situations where you're recognizing she's communicating? I need to verbalize this, and maybe she doesn't always have to communicate that verbally or at least... Hey, heads up. I got to vocalize this, you know, we're now, it's two years in the marriage and you know, she needs to share her thoughts and you want to provide her that space to share. How do you go about doing that?0:43:15 Nich: I think a lot of the time, recently, it usually happens at night, when we're just laying in bed before we attempt to sleep. And it helped recently that Kelsey even said that typically the thing that she needs is a hug or just to be held. And that if she doesn't tell me exactly what it is, that's probably a good default option for...0:43:40 Daniel: That's good.0:43:41 Nich: And the moments when she has been able to directly state that this is... Like, when she ends it on a question that was very implicitly, "I want an answer to this question," whether she verbalized that, you could kinda tell that, "Okay, this is actually a question question and not a thinking out loud question," which has been very hard to discern until we've been more open and talking about what that can look like and mean for us, I've... It's a lot easier for me to answer then because then I know what that expectation is, and it's harder for my mind to then run out of control, 'cause it's like, "Okay, there's a very clear question here that she wants," and there's still a space there as I collect my thoughts after she finishes and I wanna make sure that she is done, and then as I start to collect it, I become more okay with that half-finished idea that I feel like I have.0:44:41 Daniel: What I like hearing here is, is you eliminate the guessing, you don't wanna become as a, Kelsey, as an anxious person, hyper-vigilant to Nich's behavior. And there's a danger there, because if he shuts down, he's going silent. You're becoming hyper-vigilant. It's like, "Okay, something's wrong with Nich, what's going on? I have to dig and I have to dig and I have to dig," you're recognizing, "Okay, I need to treat him like an adult and allow him to go through this but I am gonna vocalize what I need and Nich is gonna respond to that."0:45:13 Daniel: I think this is really important and it's gonna lead into two other questions I have here. And the first one is, what would you say, I guess, both Nich and Kelsey, with anxiety and depression, for those who don't truly understand how difficult it is to live and function in a relationship with these two things, who might say, this is something that you use, as you're alluding to, a way to avoid a conversation, what's the difference there? And then the second one is, and you can answer whatever order you like, is now that you have a kid and you do have deadlines, how do you function with these two struggles, anxiety and depression, in meeting those deadlines and the needs of your child. 'Cause sometimes you can't, you can't put something off for a day or two. So, guide us in that, what do you do?0:46:13 Kelsey: Well, to answer your second question, the first thing that comes to mind actually is that having a baby, actually, it provides... How Nich mentioned that sometimes we'll just switch to a lighter topic if it feels like it's getting too overwhelming, too heavy, because we're both too anxious, it's really easy to just then, "Baby needs attention, so we're not talking about this right now, because... " Or baby's fussy or she wants to eat or I'm still nursing her a few times a day so that actually provides me... "Okay, baby's hungry. We're gonna pause this conversation. I'm gonna go have a chance to go think in baby's room while I'm nursing her by myself."0:46:57 Kelsey: So in some ways it eliminates my need to just keep hashing it out because there's an immediate need of a baby there, and so I can then focus my energy on her, whether that's anxious energy, it's usually anxious energy. I can focus that need on her and take a break. Not that I always recognize it as a break, sometimes it's more like... I wanted to have this conversation and this, this baby just needs to interrupt it. And so in the moment it might feel more stressful because there's another human being that needs me right now, other than myself and my husband but...0:47:40 Kelsey: And when I think about it, and while I'm then taking care of the baby, it's okay. This is probably a needed break from that conversation. We could take a pause. I can take care of the baby for a little while and then maybe bring this up again later when we've had a chance to chill out. And that's an up and down emotional roller coaster, right, because when somebody else needs you, it's like it's fulfilling but at the same time, it's like... But I had something else I wanted to focus on right now. So it's, it's up and down definitely.0:48:18 Daniel: Yeah, and what was the first question again? I'm trying to... For those who don't, haven't experienced this level of anxiety or depression or understand it and may say, life is tough, you've gotta still... Are you using it to... Is this a form of running away and not handling your responsibilities?0:48:39 Nich: I was slightly thinking about that and I wanted clarification on the question. And it's not... You can use an excuse to run away from any responsibility that you find anyway.0:48:49 Daniel: Absolutely.0:48:50 Nich: And so I would say it can definitely appear like that. And when you're in that moment of depression, when that thought comes to mind, or anxiety, all it does is make it worse because now you're like, "Great. Now, I'm also not taking care of my child, I'm not doing my homework." And it just keeps building upon itself more and more, and that makes it so difficult. And that's one of the benefits to marrying Kelsey and having you as a father-in-law is that we've been able to recognize that more and in a healthy way rely upon each other to know that even if we're both feeling super overwhelmed, we've been able to develop a sense of trust with each other where it's, okay, we both need something right now, and we need to figure what that is.0:49:45 Nich: And for... I can definitely see that people that haven't felt that and don't understand that how that could appear from the outside, but I would say just think about all the different excuses that you make in your life, for not doing the dishes or not giving your all at work, you're gonna find excuses in your life that are gonna be doing the same thing and they might be as deeply ingrained in your personality as depression or anxiety can be.0:50:15 Daniel: Oh, that's a great, great point. Everybody has their own struggle with procrastinating in some form. Some may be great, like Kelsey and your mom who are great schedulers and use that as a tool for productivity in their life, but there are other aspects of your life that may be a type of procrastination. And so we're all struggling with our own... I really appreciate this conversation 'cause... And I have shared a lot with my audience, but for those who don't know, I by no means struggle with the anxiety or the depression that either of you do, but I definitely do shut down when I get overwhelmed, to a point that I don't even realize, and this came to light, and why I'm sharing this is 'cause it's a lot of what you're doing early in the marriage.0:51:01 Daniel: When we started working out early in the morning, mornings are not good for me, at all, and so I didn't even realize how away I was in my mind and mom, my wife, your mother, would like to talk, and plan out in our drive to the gym in the morning at 5:00 AM, and it would become quickly overwhelming, and I would shut down more. And that was very difficult for her, and it was difficult for me and so becoming verbal. And one of the things that we did was we took the focus or potential offense off of each other. It's not because of you. What I would often do is... You know what, I am having a really... So I had to have it on the forefront of my mind, today is a really rough day. I don't think I slept well. This has nothing to do with you. I kinda need some space here as we drive. And that would be hard for her, because she... That was her time to talk, and there were mornings where she would say, "This is really hard for me." I thought it was going well, I thought it was going well, I didn't feel bad, but I wasn't talking, I wasn't engaging in the conversation, but she would be able to say that and just articulate it, and I would say, "Oh, I had no idea, thank you," and be able to engage in some dialogue right there and then to be able to meet it.0:52:27 Daniel: But I didn't feel like I was responsible for her experience there, and vice versa. And that was a process that we had to grow through, and I think we've gotten pretty good at it and being able to recognize, I'm struggling, you're struggling, okay, that's all that's going on right now and that's it. But that still, that struggle still affects us emotionally, it's like, "Oh, my goodness, I don't want today to be unpredictable." So we start to learn how to navigate that. I need 10 minutes of rest, I'll go shut down, and then I'll come back out and engage in a way that is supportive for her and I'm hearing you two develop those skills and that's really impressive and it's very hard, very hard, 'cause it has to take... You have to learn how not to get offended or take it personal, but yet it's still emotional, and to be able to communicate that so it's very impressive that you two are navigating that.0:53:26 Kelsey: Thank you.0:53:27 Daniel: And I'm not in your daily life. Yeah, you said because of me, but I have very little involvement in your marriage.0:53:35 Kelsey: No, but your ideas have a lot of involvement in our marriage.0:53:39 Daniel: Thank you.0:53:40 Kelsey: Another thing that I was thinking what you're saying that is sometimes you just need to verbalize something to connect, to check in, whatever it is. Something that we've started doing is because I've realized that when Nich gets really overwhelmed verbalizing is the last thing he wants to do.0:53:57 Daniel: It's hard.0:54:00 Kelsey: A lot of the time now he'll just... It kind of communicates... Well, let me tell you what it is first. He'll flash the I love you, the ASL sign, at me, or make the I love you sign with his hand and then touch my knee or something like that, and that's come to communicate that a lot's going on in my mind right now and I can't continue to talk about it at the moment, but I heard you and I love you and that just like... That simple little thing is just like I'm telling you I understand and that I can't do anything about it at the moment, but that I love you.0:54:36 Daniel: That's brilliant. In the context of sex, that's safe words, right? But that's in our emotional relationship, I think that's huge, and I think Julie and I, my wife and I, have done similar things. I don't know if we're as conscious of that, but there are definitely things that we do to communicate, this is where I'm at, so that's brilliant, I really like that. I hope the audience understands the impact of that, so that's... That's good. And I think where that gets really successful. Well, it is a little bit more conscious in our relationship because one of the keys for that to be successful is that we don't use... For example, in your case, the I love you sign as a way to escape the conversation and never follow up for it, right. Where it becomes successful is when you can use it and trust that this will then be followed up later. It's not a way to permanently set it aside. And I think that's where couples get into trouble, and we don't have to hold each other to a specific time frame.0:55:34 Daniel: Sometimes I will say, "Sweetheart, I need to talk to you. Let's put this off until tomorrow," and then, tomorrow comes along and, boy, it's a really bad day at work, or very emotional, it's like... But, I will communicate that with her and say, "It was really rough. Tell you what, let's try to do this tomorrow," but I'm following up eventually following up. It's not, "I'm putting you off." I know my limitations. So another great idea, I love it.0:56:02 Nich: One of the things I was thinking about right now, was that through all of this, one of the biggest problems that we've encountered is in those anxiety or high depression moments and in arguments in general, you take things very personal from what the person says. And for me, one of my big problems throughout life and why Kelsey and I think I might be actually somewhat autistic, is my ability to express my thoughts has caused a huge amount of misunderstandings in my life, and I didn't have it pointed out until my mission that my tone of voice doesn't typically match what I'm actually trying to get across. And I had no idea, and that was a very weird moment on the mission to have my companion tell me that, and he was just making note of it, he wasn't angry with me, or anything. It was just like pointing that out.0:56:53 Daniel: This isn't making sense, Nich, you said this, but it felt like this.0:56:57 Nich: All he said was, your tone of voice really doesn't match what you're saying. And I had the most, what? And so like that, and my phrasing and wording is very particular from what it's been pointed out to me from people and so when I feel like I've expressed something and because she's feeling very anxious or confused, which makes Kelsey hard to actually communicate with, 'cause she's trying to figure it all out in her way, that what I've said very profound or very direct to the point and it was misunderstood. It feels very personal to me, 'cause it's like, but I spent all this time thinking about it and composing this and you're completely misunderstanding and that means you don't understand me.0:57:51 Kelsey: One of the things that I think he mean with that is, if you can tell, Nich is bass, and this means that when he says something that's very direct, it can often sound cutting or short or he doesn't care, because it's just, "Well, this is how it is." The end.0:58:10 Daniel: It's strong.0:58:12 Kelsey: Yes, it's strong. And while that felt very, it might have felt like he was saying something consoling in his own mind because he took time to think about it and that that was his answer, to me it just felt like, well, that was disappointing and rude. And I'll say that, I'll say so, "What do you mean? That was rude. You didn't even think about what I said." And so, yes, while tone and voice and the word choice can play a lot into if you sound nice or consoling or you understand, something we've also had to learn, is that I don't want Nich to speak differently or sound like all rainbows and butterflies, just because I'm anxious, I want him to be himself, but I need to realize that his tone of voice and the way that he says things, even if it can, if I'm having a hard and overwhelming time, it can sound really cutting or dismissive.0:59:11 Kelsey: What I need to realize is that I need to pay attention to the words and also kind of like fill in what I know about him, fill in that I know that he's not trying to dismiss me or tell me that I'm being dumb, but rather that he wants to help me through it, but he also doesn't want to dwell on things that don't need to be worried about, and that's where the directness is coming from, is that he wants to help me dismiss the things that I am focusing my anxious energy on that I don't need to, and that can sound really cutting in the moment. But then I realize he's actually being caring saying, you simply don't need to worry about that. But how it translates to me is I don't care. And...1:00:03 Daniel: Do you have an example of that, 'cause I don't want the listeners... 'Cause the way that does sound, is it could sound controlling. I don't want you to think about this. You got every right to think about whatever you want. So what's a situation where that has occurred and how that's played out?1:00:24 Nich: A lot of the time with our daughter.1:00:26 Kelsey: Right. So there's been a lot of times when... I mean, I'll get really anxious if I put Evelyn down for a nap, 'cause she's still learning how to self-soothe and get herself snuggled up and asleep. I'll put her down for a nap and she's crying and I don't wanna leave her there crying, but I know that she'll get herself to sleep, because she's learning how to do that, and then I'll come out and I'm like, "She's crying again, I don't know why she won't let me put her down for a nap. She didn't even wanna snuggle. She likes you better than me. You're the favorite parent, and you can put her down for a nap and she doesn't cry... "1:01:00 Kelsey: Your anxiety starts to spiral.1:01:00 Kelsey: Yeah, and then I just think, "She hates me." She's 11 months old. Her memory is just so short term, she'll forget in two seconds that I put her down crying and she'll be happy 'cause she's asleep. But I come out saying, "This happens all the time. She hardly wanted to nurse, she didn't wanna snuggle me, she was just crying. I put it in her crib, but now I feel like I abandoned her." And those are the kind of moments when Nich is just like, one of his favorite phrases for those kind of moments for me is, "It is what it is right now," and those exact words.1:01:31 Daniel: That's not quite... I like that, because it's not dismissive. He's acknowledging, it is what it is right now, but don't let me put words in your mouth, that don't allow that, the anxiety to escalate in a way that's distracting or hurtful in the situation.1:01:48 Kelsey: The first few times that he said that I thought he was simply saying, "Shut up, you're overwhelming me, go away." But instead he was saying, "She'll be fine. You don't need to worry about this." So that's what I mean when I say that he'll say something that sounds really direct and cutting, but what he's really trying to say is, "You can tone down your anxiety, this is going to be fine," and I need to translate that in my brain that while I want him to, you know, maybe there's a part of me that wants him to go buy me chocolates and write me a love letter and make me feel better. Him saying it is what it is right now is like the emotional equivalent of that. He's saying, "You can calm down, it's going to be fine."1:02:34 Daniel: So what I'd like, maybe one final thought is, and maybe you two can share, if there's one thing that you can, the listener can take away from this, what would it be? What would you tell your pre-married selves, what would you inform yourselves? But before you answer that, one thing I think is important to clarify here is some will be thinking who are struggling with spouses who struggle with depression, is that they get this feeling of they are who they are, and I just have to let them be. What I notice in your relationship is, yes, there's a degree of that. The fact is, you do struggle with depression and you struggle with anxiety and you both at times struggle with both, and there's this element of that's who they are, but you're not becoming your depression, you're not using that as an excuse, and you are finding opportunities like what you're just describing there is how to communicate better with each other, so you're incrementally trying to meet each other's needs without denying what you're experiencing. Is that fair to say?1:03:43 Nich: Yes, I'd say so.1:03:45 Daniel: Kelsey?1:03:46 Kelsey: There was a lot of description there and I lost the question.1:03:50 Daniel: You're not using this as an excuse, you're not just saying, I'm an anxious person, so you have to live with me, just who I am. You're recognizing that's what you both are struggling with, but there are opportunities in your lives where you're actually trying to meet the needs of the other person. Is that fair to say?1:04:07 Kelsey: Yeah.1:04:08 Daniel: It's not being used as an excuse. I will never change, and I can't learn how to communicate the way that you value. You both are actually trying to communicate in a way that each other values.1:04:19 Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah.1:04:22 Nich: Makes the marriage easier.1:04:23 Kelsey: I would say that with that being said, a good takeaway that I would tell my pre-married self is one, that I don't need to feel like it's 100% my responsibility to care for my husband's emotions or to fix, I guess that's a better word, my husband's emotions if I feel like they're not happy. And with that, while I'm not responsible... While I'm not the sole responsible person for his emotions, I also, on the flip side, can't make him fully responsible for the way that I'm feeling. So that I need to take responsibility for me, and that will need to balance with helping and taking some responsibility for how he's feeling. But if I try to go 100% both ways, we're just both gonna be overwhelmed.1:05:21 Daniel: I love that summary. Thank you. Nich, what about you?1:05:26 Nich: If I would tell something to my pre-married self, it's that you don't have to be who they want you to be. With that, especially with depression and everything else that I felt with that, is that I needed to be able to accept who I am and what I have, with the depression and how my voice is and my ability to communicate, and that the more that I embrace that and try to learn and grow inside of that, that I will find people that are okay with that and who will be friends for a long time. And I will find someone that I'll get married to, despite all these things that most people are looking and going, "Oh, well, you're gonna need to fix that to actually be accepted in society and be accepted by someone."1:06:24 Daniel: Thank you both. I think this is a great example of what it's like to live the gospel, live a relationship where you both love each other, and it's still messy. I think that's important for people to hear and learn how to navigate it and I hope that those listening will hear your example and find encouragement, even in the messy. And I know sometimes we get this ideal of what a eternal temple marriage relationship looks like, and that's not bad, but to be able to see it and on day-to-day basis, and I think you guys have provided a window into that. And so I appreciate your vulnerability, and sharing that with everyone else. Thank you.1:07:06 Kelsey: Thanks, Dan.1:07:06 Daniel: Thank you.[music]Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group. 

 This Post is broken out into two separate sections; Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey as a Latter-day Saint and the full transcript of Evelyn’s podcast interview. Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey:As a single Latter-day Saint woman struggling with anxiety and depression, my sexuality was not a priority in my life. After all, I was single, wasn’t I? As an active and devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, my responsibility as I saw it at the time was to avoid and ignore anything related to sex. Whatever my well-meaning youth leaders had intended, the message that I had received from them was that anything related to sex - discussion, acknowledgment, unintended feelings of arousal, etc. - was off-limits. The idea that this avoidance might be contributing to my mental health struggles never crossed my mind. In fact, at one point, when asked whether I had a healthy view of sexuality, my answer was “How should I know?” In my mind, even knowing the answer to a question like this was potentially inappropriate, because it would require thinking about sex.Then came the challenge to make some goals in my life in all areas, including my sexuality. This made me uncomfortable. I have tried to do what is right throughout my life, and this felt like straying a little too close to the fence for me, so I started small. I would just think about my sexuality. That was all. For a few minutes, I would consider that this part of myself that I had isolated, ignored, and disconnected was, in fact, a legitimate part of me. Over time, this few minutes of thought led to study. I read books written by members of the Church and other Christian authors and considered what they had to say. I prayed about what I was reading and my own questions. I became increasingly certain that sexuality and desire are God-given and an important part of being whole and complete. As I came to this understanding, some truly unexpected things began to happen.The first noticeable change was that I began to feel differently about certain TV shows. Many comedies use sex as a primary source of humor. Where these shows had not bothered me previously, I began to feel uncomfortable with the way that they were portraying sexuality. Using this gift from God for a cheap laugh began to affect me more. Studying and thinking and acknowledging my own sexuality made it feel more sacred to me, not less. I changed some of my media habits to reflect my new understanding. This led to a closer relationship with God. I also began to feel better about myself. I felt more comfortable in my own skin. I worried less about what others thought about me, and felt less need to hide behind a mask of whatever I thought others wanted to see. My symptoms of anxiety and depression began to decrease. This was a shock to me, but I realized that accepting my own sexuality and desires allowed me to stop fragmenting myself. I became more whole and more authentic. My relationships did not suffer for letting go of my carefully constructed mask. I became closer to my roommate as we had vulnerable discussions and talked - and sometimes laughed - together about our shared insecurities. Other relationships also improved. I began to serve others more and noticed their needs more easily. I felt more comfortable reaching out to comfort and help others in need.Eventually, I decided to take another step forward in understanding my own sexuality and desires. I decided to explore masturbation. This was not a step that I came to lightly. When it was first suggested during a therapy session, I had a strong negative reaction. I couldn’t possibly do this! It was wrong. I felt anxiety and pressure. I felt torn between a desire to please someone I respected by agreeing to try but also fear that trying this would ruin my relationship with God. As a child, I had stumbled upon the ability to stimulate myself and had done this occasionally for some time before I even understood what it was. The shame I felt when I eventually realized that this was what people meant when they used the term “masturbation” was extreme. I spoke with a bishop about this behavior, and put it behind me as best I knew how, by locking away that part of myself as completely as I possibly could to avoid even entirely unintentional feelings of arousal. Now, the thought that I might choose masturbation on purpose frightened me. I thought about this deeply for some time. Eventually, I made a choice: I would not try masturbation. I shared this in my next session. Once again, the results were unexpected. I didn’t consider this at the time, but this was the first real choice that I had ever made about my own sexuality. I had always attempted to do the right thing, but it was an effort to do what others told me to do. Never before had I exercised my agency around my sexuality. I had never owned a choice before in regards to this part of myself. I felt empowered. I felt strong. My fear and anxiety decreased, but not because of what I had chosen. They decreased simply because I had chosen. I realized then that I had previously allowed myself to be acted upon, rather than claiming my agency and making my choices. I began to pray and consider the possibility of making the choice to try to better understand and appreciate my own body, my sexuality, and my desire through masturbation. After a period of time, and with significant thought and prayer, I decided that this was something that I would do. Not long after this, I met the man that I would marry. My experiences had increased my ability to interact and communicate authentically, and I was able to bring my whole self to this relationship in a way that I had not been able to in past relationships. I was able to communicate more honestly about my needs, with less fear. This is not to say that this was easy, or that I was fully prepared to enjoy the sexual relationship with my husband after marriage. I discovered that what my mind and heart believed, my body did not necessarily understand. Like many women, I had to deal with painful sex and difficulty staying in the present moment during intercourse without shame or fear. Gratefully, my husband is a kind and honest communicator who cares about my enjoyment and is patient with me. As we have talked and shared and supported each other, I have felt increased closeness and enjoyment in sex. I know that if I had not begun the process of understanding and appreciating my sexuality and my own body before we married, this process would have been far more difficult. I fear I would not even have been able to talk about it with my loving husband with honesty and awareness, which would have made our intimate experiences together more challenging and our conversations less effective.I know that my journey is far from complete. I still often feel like I have a long way to go. I also would never presume that someone else should make the same choices I have. Every person needs to make their own decisions thoughtfully and prayerfully. However, I truly believe that my Heavenly Father cares about my relationships and is concerned with my experiences with sex. He doesn't want me to live in fear of my own sexuality, given to me by Him for righteous purposes. He wants me to recognize that this gift is a part of who I am. He wants me to enjoy sex with my husband and use it as an opportunity for us to grow closer together. He wants me to claim the gift of agency and make choices for myself, rather than acting out of fear. I am grateful for the experiences that I have had as I have sought to understand my sexuality. I know that they have helped me to develop my relationships - with myself, with my friends and family, and with God. I know also that they will impact the way that I teach my children about this topic. While I still appreciate the efforts of youth leaders who impacted my life in many ways for good, I want to better prepare my children to understand this powerful gift from their loving Father in Heaven. I hope that by teaching them differently than I was taught, they may be more prepared to fully enjoy and appreciate the blessing of their sexuality. Full Franscript of Evelyn’s Podcast Interview:0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have Evelyn in the studio, who's gonna be talking about her experiences around improving her sexual health through masturbation. A sensitive topic, and I appreciate her coming in and being vulnerable with us today. Evelyn, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?0:00:50 Evelyn: Sure. I am an active member of the church. I enjoy attending every week and with my family. Anything else you wanna know?0:01:06 Daniel: Kids?0:01:07 Evelyn: Kids, I do. I do have a child. I have a daughter.0:01:13 Daniel: How long have you been married?0:01:14 Evelyn: Been married about... A little more than two years.0:01:17 Daniel: Two years. And how old are you?0:01:20 Evelyn: I am 37.0:01:21 Daniel: Thirty-seven. Wow.0:01:23 Evelyn: Well, I did not get married real early.0:01:24 Daniel: No. Well, out here in Silicon Valley, that's a pretty standard age right there.0:01:30 Evelyn: That's true.0:01:31 Daniel: But you married right, which is a great thing.0:01:33 Evelyn: I did.0:01:35 Daniel: So you're coming in here today, and we're gonna be talking about some pretty private and personal things. What's your motivation for doing this? What's your purpose for doing this?0:01:49 Evelyn: I would say my purpose for doing this is that I feel like I've made a lot of progress through the different experiences that I've had. And some of them have been challenging, but I'm in definitely a better place than when I started, and I want to give other people the opportunity to hear about it so that maybe their journey could be a little bit easier.0:02:14 Daniel: That's wonderful. Tell us some of those challenges that you're having.0:02:19 Daniel: Well, I have struggled with anxiety for a lot of my life. I would say that when I was young, it was really challenging for me to kind of manage day-to-day. I had fairly crippling perfectionism and really was very, very worried about how other people perceived me, and that got in my way a lot. When I was in college, I hit a point where I realized that I needed help. I had great parents who helped me see that I needed some support, so I reached out and I got some help. And...0:03:08 Daniel: What kind of help did you get?0:03:10 Evelyn: I started attending therapy, and I also went on medication. So I was able to get better, but I kind of got to a point where I wasn't really making too much progress beyond...0:03:26 Daniel: Did the medication help?0:03:27 Evelyn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.0:03:29 Daniel: And this was in your college years?0:03:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes. The medication definitely helped, and so did the therapy. I was able to talk to a few different therapists, and it was really beneficial. But I guess that by the time I reached adulthood, I had learned how to manage a lot. I had learned a lot of coping skills which were very beneficial. They certainly made a difference in the quality of my life. I was able to calm myself down. I was able to kind of recognize when I might be having an anxiety reaction that was above and beyond the legitimate need based on what was going on. So I developed a lot of those skills, and I've made a lot of progress, but I would still slide back periodically. And I still realized that I hadn't dealt with some of the root issues.0:04:35 Daniel: Now, we're not talking about, "I'm nervous." We're talking about anxiety that was paralyzing.0:04:43 Evelyn: Yes. Yeah. I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and it definitely was making it so that there were a lot of things that I couldn't do. Interacting with people was particularly difficult.0:05:00 Daniel: Let's talk a little bit more about that. Not only interacting with people, you're going into a profession. You're working. You're living on your own. You're high-functioning. But this was getting in the way, not just of interacting with people, but your job too?0:05:17 Evelyn: Well, I wouldn't say that it was getting in the way of my job performance. It was definitely getting in the way of my job enjoyment.0:05:24 Daniel: Ah, yes. And that's an important clarification right there. So how... If you can put it on a scale, it sounds like it was growing and becoming increasingly worse, and you'd been on medication and during your... Maybe your 20s is what we're talking about now. You're out of college, and it's increasingly getting worse. How bad was it? Tell us a little bit more about that.0:05:52 Evelyn: It depended, I would say, on the time. I would have times that I was... Felt pretty in control of how things were going, but then I would have other times when things would slide backward and I would just not want to do anything. And I would... I would say, externally, everything looked fine.0:06:11 Daniel: Yes.0:06:12 Evelyn: From an outsider's perspective...0:06:13 Daniel: You're good with that.0:06:15 Evelyn: Yes, I am. [chuckle]0:06:17 Daniel: As most... As a lot of people who struggle with anxiety are and who are high-functioning, people don't realize how bad they're suffering inside. And that was the case with you.0:06:28 Evelyn: Yeah.0:06:29 Daniel: Yeah.0:06:30 Evelyn: Yeah. But it became... Yeah, it was really very, very difficult on a day-to-day basis to just carry out the things that I needed to do, to make myself do that. It cost me a lot to go through a day and to make sure that no one knew how I was feeling about everything that I had to do, and just the overwhelming... Sometimes, it was... Sometimes it just felt incredibly devastating. I remember explaining it to my mother one time how I would feel about the future and about how things were going. And she said, "Wow, that sounds like the dementors in Harry Potter."0:07:11 Daniel: Wow.0:07:11 Evelyn: They just suck the joy out of everything.0:07:12 Daniel: Yes. What a perfect visual. Absolutely. And I think that's when I first met you was you were at that point. Dementors had sucked everything out of you.0:07:24 Evelyn: Yup.0:07:25 Daniel: You made a particularly interesting request, though, when you came and saw me. So this is much later, so in your mid-30s. So I think that's important. So for about 15 years since college.0:07:40 Evelyn: Yeah.0:07:41 Daniel: Were you on medication that whole time?0:07:44 Evelyn: Not the whole time, but I would say off and on.0:07:47 Daniel: Okay.0:07:47 Evelyn: A reasonable amount of the time.0:07:49 Daniel: And when you were on medication, it seemed like it was manageable?0:07:53 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:07:55 Daniel: And by the time you came and sought help from me, you were... If I remember right, you were not on medication.0:08:04 Evelyn: Yeah, I did try to not go on medication for a while.0:08:07 Daniel: That was a particular request you actually had.0:08:09 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:10 Daniel: You said, "I wanna try to do this without medication."0:08:12 Evelyn: Yes. I ultimately did go back on for some help with sleeping, but...0:08:19 Daniel: But for anxiety?0:08:21 Evelyn: Yeah, for anxiety I think I've made a lot of progress.0:08:23 Daniel: Yes.0:08:24 Evelyn: It still helps, but the biggest reason that I take some now is because it helps with sleep.0:08:30 Daniel: Yes. Well, and you're a new mother too, isn't it so?0:08:33 Evelyn: Well, that's true. Yes.0:08:35 Daniel: A lot of stress is going on. In fact, to that point, with all the stresses that you have, you've been married in the last two years.0:08:42 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:42 Daniel: You have a baby in your late 30s.0:08:47 Evelyn: Yep.0:08:47 Daniel: Later 30s. All these life changes. You became accustomed to living alone, or at least independently.0:08:58 Evelyn: Yes. Yes.0:09:00 Daniel: And so you have a lot of stresses in your life in your... I mean, yes, medication for sleeping, which, gosh, I'm on right now. Not to minimize at all what you're experiencing there. But even with all these major life changes, how would you say you're coping?0:09:16 Evelyn: Oh, much better.0:09:18 Daniel: Much better.0:09:18 Evelyn: Much better than I was.0:09:20 Daniel: So you eventually, in your mid-30s, you sought out help again. Had you see seen a therapist since college?0:09:28 Evelyn: Yes.0:09:29 Daniel: Yes, you have?0:09:30 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:09:30 Daniel: And I'm assuming it was somewhat helpful because you're coming again.0:09:33 Evelyn: Yeah. Absolutely.0:09:35 Daniel: And so you're in a new area, you're seeking some support here. Tell us about that. What was that experience like? You're having to reach out. Give me some emotions.0:09:45 Evelyn: Sure. I would say that when I've gone to see a therapist, it has helped. And so I would... I decided that when I reached a point in a new area, I needed to find someone to help me out because with the moving to a new place, it kind of pushed me backward to the point where I really wasn't coping well at all. So I decided that I needed to find somebody, and luckily, I'd met you.0:10:12 Daniel: Okay.0:10:12 Evelyn: So I asked you, and we started talking, and that was really helpful.0:10:21 Daniel: Well, it was interesting at the beginning. We were doing... So one of the first things we did was we tried to explore what's working. And we repeat those and we try to find ways to enhance that or build on the skills that you already knew how to do and do very well. In fact, I do recall a lot that you were, "Yep, familiar with this. I know how to do this." But what we were experiencing, yes, some of the anxiety was being manageable, but it wasn't getting to a point where you're okay. And correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, it wasn't... We weren't making the progress that I think you were hoping for.0:11:02 Evelyn: Well, I think I kind of got to the point where I thought this is as good as it's gonna get.0:11:08 Daniel: Yes, yes.0:11:10 Evelyn: And I guess this is life. And that's okay. I mean, it's not too bad. I'll just have to do my best and take a day at a time.0:11:16 Daniel: Well, hold on a second. When you say, "It's not too bad," I think we need to put that in context. You've lived a life of anxiety, so you're not too bad. And yeah, don't let me misspeak. I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But I think... To some degree, I think you're minimizing it. You were struggling.0:11:35 Evelyn: Well, yes. I was struggling, but I guess I figured that we reached the point where I had gotten before, which was manageable.0:11:45 Daniel: Manageable. Okay.0:11:47 Evelyn: And figured that this was... What I was going to do was I was going to kind of do a cycle where I could manage it, and then maybe changes in life or something would happen that would increase the stress, and then I would go downhill, and then I would get some help, and then I would bring it back to manageable. And that would kind of be life. But that's as good as I could hope for, so I should make the best of it.0:12:13 Daniel: So what happened from there? Why didn't we just quit, say we succeeded and moved on?0:12:20 Evelyn: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I think that you brought up some interesting points that I hadn't considered before, and at first I thought that they didn't have anything to do with me.0:12:34 Daniel: Tell us about those points. What points were we bringing up?0:12:37 Evelyn: Well, I remember you bringing up, at one point, just... Well, how do you feel about your sexual health? And I thought, "How should I know?" I think that's what I said. "How should I know?" I was single and being an active temple-attending member of the church. That meant that I didn't really have a sexual life. So it seemed like something that was disconnected.0:13:11 Daniel: It's interesting even now, when you recall this, and you're a lot more informed now, you went immediately to the sexual experiences. I'm not married.0:13:22 Evelyn: Right.0:13:23 Daniel: And so was it even on the forefront of your mind, sexual health, 'cause that was the question that was what was being explored, was much more than just physical intimacy with somebody else. And so even now when you're talking about it goes, you're recalling, right?0:13:40 Evelyn: Oh, yeah. I'm remembering that I didn't really see any other sides to the issue.0:13:46 Daniel: So what was that experience like, coming from your therapist, even a male therapist, what was your experience hearing it come out as even something to be suggested or thought about. And as again, as a male therapist, any thoughts or feelings around all that?0:14:03 Evelyn: I would say that initially I rejected it, and put it aside as something that didn't really apply to me, but it did plant some seeds of thought that I returned to on my own.0:14:21 Daniel: What prompted you to return to it? So that seed was planted.0:14:27 Evelyn: Well, I think one thing that prompted me to return to it was that I think in a session, I actually brought up the idea that I think that this is as good as it's gonna get. This is kind of what I live with, this is... This is how it's going to go, this is how my life's gonna go. And you said I don't buy that. And I thought, well, maybe you're wrong. [laughter]0:14:56 Daniel: You always told me you like forwardness, directness. So, yes, I thought there was much more potential there I didn't think we had to suffer with just manageable. So where did that take your thoughts?0:15:16 Evelyn: Well, I went home and I thought about it and I decided I wanted to give it a try. I guess if you always do what you've always done then you're gonna always get what you've always gotten. So...0:15:30 Daniel: Give what a try?0:15:33 Evelyn: Exploring other ideas, sexual health was one of them. But you did kind of bring up this idea of wholeness.0:15:41 Daniel: Yes.0:15:43 Evelyn: And that there's just so many sides of me as a person and to make some goals in all these different areas.0:15:51 Daniel: Yep, I think so, good memory on that. That's definitely what we do is try to approach it from a wholeness. All too often we get focused on, "Okay, I have anxiety. So just give me the skills and techniques to manage it."0:16:07 Evelyn: Exactly.0:16:08 Daniel: But if there's a possibility to... I'm not gonna say eliminate, I don't think we eliminate anxiety. Everybody experiences anxiety every day at some sort of level, but get to a point where you can actually be proactive about it, or thrive or get it to a point where the management is much, much less, and so we have to step outside of just the managing anxiety aspect, we have to focus on the mental, the spiritual, the physical side of this. And so I think I, well, I'm remembering this because it's a standard procedure I do, I think I even recommended, let's get your blood work done, let's get you... Make sure everything's fine physically, biologically, but this has been around for a long time, and so, this isn't a new... It wasn't like you're coming into a new biological stage of life, although that could have been possible, but we wanted to rule those things out. And so, one thing that you've never explored was that sexual aspect, is my sexual health good and can this be part of the problem?0:17:15 Evelyn: That one was brand new, and some of the other ones were not brand new. Thinking about them altogether was a little bit new, but I'd certainly worked on myself spiritually, I'd worked on myself mentally, I had focused on exercise, and eating right and I mean, all of those things were things that I had done before. Looking at it as a holistic perspective was a little bit different, but they weren't different ideas. It was the sexual health piece that was the different piece, and it felt like it didn't fit. But now when I look back, it feels like... It feels odd to assume that something that's so much an important part of myself would not be a puzzle piece whereas everything else would be, but it was the only piece of it that I had never explored before.0:18:06 Daniel: Looking back now, what do you think was making it feel like it didn't fit?0:18:12 Evelyn: I would say that I had worked pretty hard to make it not a part of myself.0:18:21 Daniel: Yes.0:18:22 Evelyn: And that was in an effort to be as good as possible.0:18:33 Daniel: Tell us more about that, what does that mean? So first of all, the fact that you're saying you worked as hard as you could for it not be a part of... I feel like there's some insinuation going on there. Was this something that you may have or tempted to be struggling with or tempted...0:18:49 Evelyn: I would say that I... Well, to go back when I was young, I discovered that I could stimulate myself.0:19:00 Daniel: How young are we talking about?0:19:00 Evelyn: Oh, maybe between 10 and 12.0:19:02 Daniel: Okay. Entering your teen years, yep, yep.0:19:05 Evelyn: So pretty young, accidentally... And explored it a little bit and...0:19:13 Daniel: Talking about masturbation?0:19:14 Evelyn: Yes. Didn't really have any idea of what I was doing, honestly. I went to youth meetings and things where they would tell you that you should not masturbate. And I didn't have any idea that these things were connected at all.0:19:37 Daniel: Oh, so in those youth meetings, you weren't realizing that's what was happening?0:19:40 Evelyn: Correct. I had no idea what masturbation really was.0:19:43 Daniel: You were just hearing this terminology and you were like, "Oh, okay, I'm not gonna do this."0:19:46 Evelyn: Yeah, absolutely not. It was clearly a bad thing, I was not gonna do it.0:19:50 Daniel: So at what point did you realize what you were doing between 10 and 12 was actually what they were saying don't do?0:19:57 Evelyn: Well, I did it occasionally.0:20:01 Daniel: In your teen years?0:20:02 Evelyn: In my teen years. It wasn't actually until I picked up a teen magazine that was sitting on a table at the library sometime around the age of maybe 14-15, something like that, that the magazine actually gave me a clear enough definition of masturbation that I was able to make the connection.0:20:22 Daniel: Interesting. So, what were you experiencing when you had that connection?0:20:26 Evelyn: I was devastated, I was completely devastated. And...0:20:31 Daniel: About how old were you at this time?0:20:34 Evelyn: I would say maybe 15.0:20:37 Speaker 1: 15. Pretty young.0:20:39 Evelyn: So I just... I felt incredibly ashamed and that I had managed to do something so terrible without even realizing that I was doing it.0:20:50 Daniel: So how did you respond to that?0:20:55 Evelyn: I think that's when I started to try to avoid any...0:21:02 Daniel: It became an active suppressing.0:21:06 Evelyn: Yes, yeah, that was when I kind of began the process of trying to avoid any accidental, 'cause I did my best to avoid any masturbation, but I also tried to avoid any reading something that might accidentally make my mind go that direction. I mean, I was really working hard.0:21:30 Daniel: Totally shut it off?0:21:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And in all intents and purposes, that's really what the ideal was communicated in these youth meetings, don't stim... I mean, for the strength of youth, right?0:21:40 Evelyn: Yes.0:21:40 Daniel: And so you've spent from 15 on when you discovered, made the connection with this magazine, and your behavior and these youth meetings. Well, was there any kind of formal repentance or did you discuss this with leadership?0:21:57 Evelyn: Not at that point, but I did about when I was a freshman in college. So about the age of 17.0:22:04 Daniel: Is that because you were struggling with it or...0:22:06 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say I hadn't been able to 100% cut it off, so I didn't...0:22:12 Daniel: But this wasn't like a daily thing for you, it was like...0:22:15 Evelyn: No.0:22:16 Daniel: Once in a blue moon kind of.0:22:16 Evelyn: It was occasional. Yeah. It was occasional.0:22:18 Daniel: Wanting to clear the air with the bishop.0:22:21 Evelyn: Or, and sometimes it wasn't even physical stimulation, maybe it was just mental. My thoughts might go a different direction, but I would find myself feeling stimulated so it wasn't...0:22:30 Daniel: So when you say you worked hard.0:22:32 Evelyn: I did.0:22:32 Daniel: Not only your sexual arousal but your thoughts, your feelings, all around it.0:22:37 Evelyn: Well I... Yeah, I felt that sometimes I would have thoughts that would lead me toward arousal, and I would feel some physical response, thoughts that I was having or something that I might read or anything like that. And so I...0:22:54 Daniel: So you're a completely different person today because I remember when you first would even start to... I don't even think you would say the word masturbation.0:23:03 Evelyn: No, I didn't say the word masturbation for a long time.0:23:06 Daniel: Even I think maybe eventually you did with me. I don't remember exactly the timeline, but even your mind going there, there was a clear anxiety being provoked.0:23:17 Evelyn: Oh, very much so, yes.0:23:19 Daniel: And did you notice that at the time or was that even something that you were physically aware that was happening? You literally really physically changed.0:23:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I think I'm aware of it. Yeah.0:23:31 Daniel: Prior to 15, I realize we're going back 15, 20 years. Do you feel like before you made this discovery, that you were masturbating, that your anxiety was as severe?0:23:48 Evelyn: It was not. However, I couldn't necessarily say whether that was because of this discovery.0:23:55 Daniel: Absolutely, and I wanna be careful with that...0:23:57 Evelyn: 'Cause I think it...0:24:00 Daniel: Again, 15-20 years ago, we don't know.0:24:00 Evelyn: Right. I think it grew for who knows how many different factors.0:24:05 Daniel: As you're entering puberty too, that's... Or you're well into puberty. Yeah. So all these feelings are coming up which could add to... So yeah, clear, I'm not making any... I can't go there and say that was the cause of it. But now you're in your 20s, you're in your 30s, you've spent 15-20 years going on and off medication, managing. Now we start to explore this. And one thing I really appreciated about you is usually I have a... My clients fall into one of maybe three different categories: One, when we explore... I have seven principles that I explore and that includes mental health, spiritual health, physical health, sexual health, so forth. And usually when we get to the sexual health part, especially with single adults, I get one of maybe three different reactions, one is, oh, no, they never even... Even just mentioning, how is your sexual health? It's very rare, but sometimes I get them... They'll never even come back.0:25:07 Daniel: So I'll get some people who are like, okay, whatever it takes, and then we get people that I think are more like you. I need to think about this. And I really, really value that, because that's part of therapy is getting you to be that individual and you have no problem with differentiating from other people, and so that didn't surprise me, but the thought process, both spiritual and mental, that you put into it was impressive, and I admired, I fully admired how you approach this. You didn't just say, "Whatever you say, Dan. Let's figure this out," and for you as somebody who wanted to get rid of your anxiety, you didn't just jump on and say... So tell us... I'll stop talking there, but you tell us what that process was like from your end. That's what I observed.0:26:00 Evelyn: Okay, sure. Well, after I kind of went through college, when I didn't see a bishop and talked through everything and then no more, I'd really cut off that part of myself as much as possible. No, sexuality is not really a part of who I am. I need to focus on the spiritual, I need to focus on the mental, I can focus on the physical. Those are all okay, but this other part is something that I'm just saving for until after I'm married. Then we came to the point where you brought it up and asked me to make a goal and I started very small.0:26:45 Daniel: Yes.0:26:46 Evelyn: I said I will think about it. I will think about sex for a few minutes. I feel comfortable going that far, but thinking about it started me wondering if there might be something that was missing in my life, and I still didn't connect it to anxiety, not really, but I thought as long as I was working on everything else, maybe I would continue to work in this area as well, and...0:27:22 Daniel: What started to happen? So we're talking about, and I put a timeline in just to give an appreciation, it's not that it was fast or slow or anything like that, but we're talking about months. You were taking...0:27:38 Evelyn: It started to happen, yeah.0:27:40 Daniel: Yeah, so what was the process? You started...0:27:42 Evelyn: Okay.0:27:42 Daniel: So let's explain the thinking about sex a little bit more there. The goal there, do you recall what it was? I'm not, I don't mean to put you on the spot.0:27:52 Evelyn: Do I recall what it was? I remember that there was a goal in every area, and that the one that I felt like I could do was I would think about this issue.0:28:00 Daniel: Being aware of your own sexuality, what are your own desires and thoughts, getting... So the goal was to get in tune, in connection with yourself, your sexual identity, what does that look like? And what does that feel like? And so you started to explore that a little bit more.0:28:19 Evelyn: Yeah, and it was not fast at, it was not a fast process for me, but what I started to notice was that beginning to recognize this piece of myself changed. The first thing I think I noticed it changing was my interactions with other people. I started to feel more open and able to communicate with people. I had a roommate, we'd lived together for some time and we got along reasonably well, but we were just roommates. I mean, kind of ships passing in the night, and one day I started talking with her and our relationship began to grow and to change. And...0:29:13 Daniel: You talking, you mean just casual conversations.0:29:16 Evelyn: At first, yeah, but then eventually, we started talking about deeper things, and discovering that we had more in common than we thought.0:29:26 Daniel: I think it's important, I think you, we alluded to it with the anxiety but part of this, I think the audience should understand is how much of an introvert you are.0:29:35 Evelyn: Oh, very.0:29:36 Daniel: And so just talking with your roommate, you liked your roommate, this had nothing to do with personalities or anything, just you're on probably the higher end of being an introvert than most introverts. And so just having this conversation, how do you feel that was connected to your exploring your sexuality?0:29:55 Evelyn: Well, at the time, I didn't understand it at all, it didn't make sense to me, it was just an observation. So if we're kind of going on the journey, at the time I was noticing that this was happening more and more, but I wasn't clear how it connected.0:30:18 Daniel: So at this time, you're not masturbating, you're...0:30:20 Evelyn: No, just thinking.0:30:20 Daniel: Just explain... What is my sexual identity. Let's just call it that, and doing that, opening that up was starting to allow you to open up to other people.0:30:37 Evelyn: If I'm going to reflect from a position of having travelled a long way from where I was.0:30:44 Daniel: Yes.0:30:45 Evelyn: I think it has something to do with that wholeness piece. There was a part of myself that I was hiding and I was hiding it even from myself. That was my goal, was to hide it even from myself, and because I was hiding it, I felt vulnerable so much of the time, I felt so nervous and yes, I am an introvert and that hasn't changed.0:31:13 Daniel: No.0:31:14 Evelyn: I will continue to be one. But I was so afraid of being found out almost that I had this piece of myself, that was hidden and I...0:31:26 Daniel: Your sexual self.0:31:27 Evelyn: Right. But it's not like I could have pinpointed that that was why I was nervous in any way, but I think that the fact that I was fragmenting myself a little bit, and keeping...0:31:40 Daniel: That's a great way to say it, yeah.0:31:42 Evelyn: Keeping a part of myself away even from me, increased my anxiety and increased the difficulty that I had interacting with people, I was always so nervous, I was very hypersensitive about the reactions that other people were giving me. And anything that seemed negative I took on myself very, very deeply, and...0:32:08 Daniel: We're talking like at work, your social life, at church events, every interaction, even talking with your roommate, you're...0:32:17 Evelyn: Yeah, I was always looking for any negative signs, anything that was wrong, and trying to fit myself into something that would never, ever receive a negative, negative feedback of any kind from anybody, which is so hard to do that pretty much it involved trying to avoid interactions.0:32:37 Daniel: Absolutely. So tell us more. You're starting to explore your sexual identity. Now that you're looking back, you didn't know at the time how or why that would have a positive impact on even your interaction and in minimizing this.0:32:53 Evelyn: I found it confusing, honestly.0:32:54 Daniel: So what did you do with that confusion?0:32:56 Evelyn: Well, I felt like I don't know why this is working, but it seems to be.0:33:05 Daniel: So you were seeing results.0:33:06 Evelyn: Yes, I was seeing results.0:33:07 Daniel: Right.0:33:07 Evelyn: I was seeing positive interactions. I was finding myself... I mean, I bring up the roommate, but there were other indications too. I mean, at work, I found myself willing to step forward a little bit more and disagree with people at times and tell them things that I thought as opposed to what I thought they were looking for.0:33:28 Daniel: This was an impressive time, because your anxiety for the first time that we're seeing wasn't just managed and reduced, your confidence was increasing.0:33:36 Evelyn: Right. Yeah. I felt very different. I have a sister-in-law that I've come to have quite a good relationship with at this point, but I will say that the first, quite a lot of years of my brother's marriage to her, I was terrified of her, because she has a tendency to give negative feedback unintentionally.0:33:58 Daniel: She was feeding the cycle.0:34:00 Evelyn: Yeah. So, I mean, I just thought she hated me. Every time I was in the room, I would just feel... My heart would be pounding and my stomach would be tight and I would be so nervous, because I felt like there was no way that I could get the right feedback from her, and I found myself... She came in one day and said something, and I could have easily taken it the wrong way, and I thought, "I don't think she means anything by that."0:34:25 Daniel: Interesting.0:34:27 Evelyn: And just kind of let it go, and opened the door to actually having a positive relationship with her, because I was no longer living in this place where I was always, always worried about what other people thought of me.0:34:46 Daniel: So why didn't you end it there? You got success you haven't had before. What made you go to the next step?0:34:55 Evelyn: Well, I would say that the first thing that made me go the next step was that you suggested that I might wanna consider masturbation. And I thought that was a terrible idea.[laughter]0:35:08 Daniel: What was going through... In this experience, what was happening?0:35:13 Evelyn: Well, you mentioned it and I...0:35:17 Daniel: Now, let's be clear, I wanna... For the audience to understand it. This wasn't, "Go home and do this."0:35:23 Evelyn: No.0:35:24 Daniel: So, what was the invitation, do you recall?0:35:27 Evelyn: I think you said something like, "Have you ever considered or tried masturbation? Has that ever been a part of your exploration?" I don't remember your words exactly, but it was somewhere along those lines.0:35:44 Daniel: Yup. And I think that was pretty close, 'cause at that point where I started to see more anxiety come up from what we know now, was from your teenage years and it's like, "Woah," so that seed was planted, what happened from there?0:36:00 Evelyn: Well, I didn't wanna dismiss it out of hand, because I was interacting with someone that I had respect for, and that I had seen positive success from what we'd been working on so far. At the same time, I was pretty terrified that it might destroy my relationship with my Heavenly Father, because that always has been and remains one of the most important relationships in my life.0:36:34 Daniel: And still is.0:36:35 Evelyn: Yeah, and still is. And I wanted to make sure that I didn't ever engage in anything that would impact that negatively. So, I was kind of torn between this fear of harming that relationship, and considering the progress that I've made.0:37:03 Daniel: Yes.0:37:03 Evelyn: And that trusting you in the past had led to some positive things.0:37:09 Daniel: You were trusting yourself.0:37:12 Evelyn: And that's true, I was. But it was your idea that I should explore sexual health in some way.0:37:20 Daniel: That's correct.[chuckle]0:37:23 Evelyn: So, I did have that on my mind too. So trying to balance those things, I went back and forth a lot. And...0:37:35 Daniel: What does back and forth mean? What were you doing...0:37:38 Evelyn: Back and forth as in, "Maybe I should try this, wonder what would happen, I wonder how that would impact me? Nope, never gonna do it. Nope, that would be a terrible thing."0:37:48 Daniel: Talk about your relationship with the Lord in this process, how did you include or not include Him?0:37:58 Evelyn: I definitely prayed, and my prayer was something along the lines of help me not do something that I will regret, and help me let... Help let me know if I'm going to do something that would be detrimental to our relationship. So there were a lot of prayers like that. I would say, I didn't feel a lot one way or the other at that point, as far as an answer to that prayer.0:38:26 Daniel: Was that confusing to you?0:38:29 Evelyn: Not terribly. I think that I've gotten some clear answers in my life and a lot of times that I've been encouraged to figure things out myself.0:38:40 Daniel: So is that what you did?0:38:45 Evelyn: Yeah, at least at that moment, and what I did...0:38:47 Daniel: So, what... Yup.0:38:49 Evelyn: Was I decided I was not going to masturbate, and I came back and I told you that. And I felt wonderful.0:39:02 Daniel: Yes, you did, you were glowing.0:39:06 Evelyn: And... Yeah.0:39:07 Daniel: I remember that, and I praised you for that. What was the focus of my praise? Do you recall?0:39:15 Evelyn: I don't recall.0:39:16 Daniel: You made the decision.0:39:18 Evelyn: Well, that's... I mean, I think that that for me was the thing that I came to. Yeah, I mean, it was the first decision I had ever really made, sexually, in my life.0:39:30 Daniel: Yes. That's exactly right. And that was one of the indicators to me, 'cause as you're just talking about a lot of your life, your lot of... What was feeding your anxiety was what... The impressions of what other people were having on you or at least your interpretation of their responses to you.0:39:48 Evelyn: Yes.0:39:50 Daniel: And...0:39:51 Evelyn: A lot of it was interpretation.0:39:53 Daniel: And what you were just saying also about me, you respected me, both as a... And that's something I take... I don't take lightly, as a therapist, and... Especially within our faith, how do we guide individuals to healthy living while also maintaining their level of faith, their love of God, and supporting them in those areas of their life? And you didn't just do this because I recommended it. You came back with a decision, you prayed about it, you pondered about it, you researched about it, and you came in and you were glowing. Now, this was your choice, and that was amazing.0:40:41 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, the making of the choice was a claiming of my agency in regards to sexuality that I had never made before. Everything I'd done prior to that point was an effort to please somebody else, really.0:41:02 Daniel: Even suppressing your sexual health?0:41:04 Evelyn: Yes, yes.0:41:07 Daniel: That is huge. And I can't... I mean, we're exploring this in the environment of the therapeutic office, but I had seen this, this wasn't a new occurrence, I had seen this over and over, where people had abandoned their agency around their sexual health and the same or similar things occurred. So this was not new to me, but to see it come out of you was just this light bulb moment. So, what did we do from there? What's... We were done with therapy, right? You were perfect, you're healthy.0:41:43 Evelyn: Yeah, isn't that great?[chuckle]0:41:45 Daniel: And end of story, right?[chuckle]0:41:47 Evelyn: Of course. [chuckle] Well, I mean, what you did at that point was say, "Okay, that's your decision. Go with that."0:41:57 Daniel: Yes.0:42:00 Evelyn: But I kind of continued to think about it, and I think that I felt so freed by the fact that I owned this part of myself, that I...0:42:16 Daniel: Was it scary owning it?0:42:20 Evelyn: No, actually.0:42:23 Daniel: That's interesting. The audience can't see her, she's glowing right now [chuckle] when she responds to that. [chuckle] Tell us more about that. Why was that not scary? This thing was scary all your life.0:42:37 Evelyn: It was scary on my life and I thought it would be scary, you know? I mean, I thought it would be terrifying, because it had worried me so much, and had been... I mean, I would have such a physical response even to the word masturbation, if anyone else ever said it, I would just feel... I would kind of start to sweat and I'd feel my stomach tighten up and I'd feel just... All my muscles kind of get tight, which was why I couldn't say it. I would dance around the term as much as possible. It was so frightening to me and yet when I made that decision, I was very nervous to tell you. I'll tell you that. I mean, when I came in...0:43:27 Daniel: I noticed and I...0:43:28 Evelyn: Yeah.[chuckle]0:43:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Hopefully I came across very respectful?0:43:32 Evelyn: You did, you did. But I mean, that part was nervous...0:43:34 Daniel: Of course.0:43:36 Evelyn: But nerve-racking, but when I made the decision and then when I moved on to owning it, it lost its fear. I mean, I lost so much fear around that, and I gained so much confidence to make decisions in other areas of my life too, I think.0:43:58 Daniel: How much of that was or was any of it, the fact that you're working with a male therapist or was it just the nature of the topic? Did me being a male therapist enhance that nervousness?0:44:12 Evelyn: Well, probably. Yeah, it probably did.0:44:15 Daniel: How did you navigate that or how did you resolve that? Or was it a factor that you felt like you had to address?0:44:24 Evelyn: I didn't really resolve or address. I think it probably did increase my anxiety a bit around it, made it more nerve-racking than it would have been with a woman, but I didn't really... I mean, it wasn't so overwhelming that I really had resolve it, I think.0:44:46 Daniel: The ability to speak it, to vocalize it was freeing.0:44:50 Evelyn: Yes, it really was.0:44:54 Daniel: So you made your decision, you are... You have no need to masturbate, you owned it, your health was improved and we were done with therapy.0:45:05 Evelyn: No, no, we weren't.[laughter]0:45:07 Daniel: So take it to the next step, what's happening?0:45:13 Evelyn: So the next step was continuing. I continued to work on some of those goals, I was thinking, I was reading, I was studying, I was considering and pondering and praying, and all of those kinds of things, and then I really felt like, actually, I do wanna understand my body, I wanna understand my desire, I want to better understand this whole piece of myself and I made the decision that I did want to try masturbation.0:45:48 Daniel: I want the audience to understand how thorough you are, 'cause if somebody doesn't know you and hearing what you just said, you continued to think about it. They don't understand how much of a... Exaggeration, that is.0:46:07 Evelyn: Think about it for me.0:46:09 Daniel: You read every book there was.0:46:11 Evelyn: I did, yeah.0:46:12 Daniel: You scoured the internet, you... Both religious materials, sexual health, you picked up books like And They Were Not Ashamed and you dove right in.0:46:24 Evelyn: Read about half a dozen different books cover to cover.0:46:27 Daniel: You're taking the doctrine covenants to heart, read and study and ponder. So I think it's important for the audience, because they don't know you. And so when I hear that you're pondering this, I know that you are diving and this is beyond just thinking.0:46:42 Evelyn: I am a researcher.0:46:44 Daniel: Yes, you are.0:46:45 Evelyn: When I got a cat about 15 years ago or so, I spent a good three days researching all the different names that I might actually name the cat before coming to a decision. If anyone wants to know what product that they should buy that I've already bought, they just ask me, because I have done all the research, I have read 15 different articles, about the 10 best and then looked at what they all had in common and then compared the pros and cons. I am an extremely careful person.0:47:19 Daniel: So you went into this well aware of what the church leadership, what the culture is, what you've read, but you're feeling that this... I'm gonna put the word positive desire, or desire to explore this, and when I say desire, it's not just arousal desire. Go ahead, tell us more about that.0:47:45 Evelyn: I would say it wasn't arousal desire at that point, it was a desire for increased understanding. That's what I was looking for was a fuller understanding of myself, and I prayed more and again, there was a lot of I'm feeling good about this decision, and if it's not right, please help me to know that. I really, I really didn't take it lightly.0:48:20 Daniel: Yeah, so what was your answer, what did you end up doing?0:48:29 Evelyn: I felt good about it, and so I decided that I would try masturbation and see what happened, and so I did and I felt that understanding, what I was looking for, I felt more in tune with myself, and it wasn't even primarily arousal, it was more that this was a better knowledge of who I am as a person. This is what my body can do, this is the gifts that I've been given, this is... This whole body is a gift and I would like to understand it better. And now I do. So that was, that was more what it was about for me, I think, than it was arousal and orgasm, it was who am I? And I did feel like I developed my relationship with myself.0:49:39 Daniel: What... I realize you're not even thinking about this, but I know the audience is listening and wondering maybe pornography was not involved.0:49:50 Evelyn: No.0:49:51 Daniel: This is a self-understanding. This was so huge. You connected with yourself, with the Spirit. I don't wanna misuse any terminology here, but you seem to increase in your wellness.0:50:13 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that... I wouldn't go so far as to say that masturbation was in and of itself a spiritual experience for me. However, what I would say is that as I became more aware of myself that led to things in my life that led to increased spirituality. For example, the appreciation of my body and of the gift that I have received through my body, what I found myself doing was becoming offended by TV shows that made light of sexuality, that had previously not had that impact on me. Previously, I could watch these shows, they really kind of just... Some of these jokes just washed over me. It was just the way that jokes are, and yet suddenly they were bothering me more because they were making light of this thing that was a gift, and so I began to change my media habits and that kind of thing I do think led to overall increased spirituality for me.0:51:28 Daniel: You're being able to own your own sexuality, you start to have more confidence around people interacting and socializing more, now understanding your physical self, your sexual self physically, you're starting to have a more profound appreciation for how sex is represented in media, that is profound, that is a response that you... I don't think everybody has that response. And I don't wanna set this up as though you go out and masturbate, and you're gonna reject all forms of unhealthy sex. But this is key. This is, I think, part of your personality and was part of your healing and growing into your whole self, and that was a part of your personality you don't want to be exposed to that, you want to appreciate what God has given you. And the media was a distraction to that. Am I understanding that right?0:52:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that, yeah, that's pretty solid. I think it was, for me personally, in my experience, it was before the different little jokes and things like that. They didn't mean anything to me because it wasn't even...0:52:51 Daniel: On your radar.0:52:53 Evelyn: A part of me. But now suddenly it was a part of me, it was impacting me and I felt like I needed to make those changes, so certainly not something I would expect of everybody, but in my personal journey, that's how it went.0:53:08 Daniel: So, you're emotionally understanding your sexual health, you're physically understanding it, now we're good. Your life is great, is that true?0:53:18 Evelyn: Well, my life is different.0:53:20 Daniel: It is different. I think there was some more progress going on there and some new skills that you were learning.0:53:29 Evelyn: Well, I'll insert another person at this point, which is that this is about the point that I met my husband, and I think that this process kind of prepared me for meeting him, because I was able to talk to him. We were able to discuss things. When we started, I was more comfortable, I was less concerned about what he was thinking about me than I had been in previous relationships where, who knows if they might have worked out or not otherwise, but one reason they definitely weren't going to work out was because I wasn't myself in them, I was too concerned about the way I was being perceived, so I'd reached the point where I was not feeling that in that same way, it was more like, "This is who I am. And let's see if we happen to be compatible and if we're not, it's not a judgement on me, you can go find somebody else."0:54:35 Daniel: You were much more relaxed about this relationship.0:54:37 Evelyn: So more relaxed, yes, than I had been in previous relationships.0:54:42 Daniel: It's interesting 'cause I can't recall if we've ever had this conversation, because I was on the outside looking at as you're sharing your meeting your now husband, and I was wondering the same things, if this, if your ability to understand yourself was helping. It seems like it would be logical, but not necessarily, it doesn't always happen this way, but that was transferring well into your relationship with him.0:55:07 Evelyn: It was... Yeah, I think the biggest one really was that I liked myself. Not every single tiny little bit of myself.0:55:18 Daniel: But you valued...0:55:20 Evelyn: But in general. I thought I was...0:55:22 Daniel: You were no more rejecting parts of yourself.0:55:24 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.0:55:25 Daniel: And the things that you were not liking, because this isn't about liking every single thing about you. I think that's a beautiful thing if you can do that. Reality is, we're human and we're imperfect and there's gonna be things about ourselves that we don't always love. And you were able to acknowledge those parts without shaming it, without suppressing it, including... I'm talking other things besides just the sexual health part. And so that was making you a more whole person able to interact with your now husband better.0:55:58 Daniel: Definitely. So we got to know each other and we went from levels of just getting to know each other to having more deep conversations. I felt like I was able to be more vulnerable, and he was too. And then we were eventually able to talk about some of these issues, and that also brought us closer and helped me.0:56:26 Daniel: You mean before you married? Are you talking about your issues around anxiety and using masturbation as a coping mechanism, or understanding...0:56:37 Evelyn: Not really a coping mechanism, but that I had had anxiety, that I'd tried different things, we talked about that. We did talk about sexuality before marriage.0:56:47 Daniel: Which is something you would never done before.0:56:49 Evelyn: No, I really wouldn't have, I don't think I would have been able to, but I had the vocabulary, and this wasn't like early in our relationship.0:56:58 Daniel: No, no, no, you guys were... This was clearly at a point that you guys were committed.0:57:03 Evelyn: Yes. Before we discussed, anything that deep, but...0:57:08 Daniel: So at this point, let's backtrack just a little bit here. With the use of masturbation, was this a one or two time occurrence, or was this something that you now incorporated into a healthy routine or part of your life? What was it for you?0:57:25 Evelyn: I'm gonna say somewhere in between those two. It wasn't something that was a routine. Every so often I would masturbate but I wasn't afraid of that either. And so at times I would choose to do that.0:57:45 Daniel: You recognized the benefits and you were able to use it as... Is that fair to say?0:57:50 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's here to say.0:57:53 Daniel: So, the reason when I bring that up, is you now have this additional tool, if you will, in your skill set and understanding yourself and also addressing anxiety. I'm going to assume, I know, but you're dating your husband. How is the stress level? How's your anxiety? Does it ever spike again or what do you deal... How do you deal with your anxiety?0:58:21 Evelyn: I would say that when we got really close to getting married, I got really anxious. Luckily, I was able to talk about it because I have a husband who's really good at communicating and so he is able to ask me about things, and then I was able to tell him, so I was able to talk about how I was feeling, and the communication reduced my anxiety.0:58:51 Daniel: Which is something you wouldn't have done before, talk, you would have...0:58:55 Evelyn: Talking was not one of my management strategies for anxiety.0:59:02 Daniel: Even though you knew it would help. So that was one of the things that you struggled with. But being able to have the confidence now, and reduced anxiety, or at least anxiety to a level that you can now engage in that conversation, but your pattern in the past was to shut down, become more independent. And would you... In the past, how would you have handled that fear of getting married, how would that have played out?0:59:32 Evelyn: Okay, well, I would have run away. And I guess I wanna correct the no talking, because it's not that I wouldn't talk to anybody, but I wouldn't talk to the person.0:59:45 Daniel: Yes, a good clarification, yes.0:59:48 Evelyn: And I would just run and hide. When I was in college I knew where all of the women's bathrooms were that were really comfortable and had couches in them, because should I be avoiding someone who I was dating who was causing me anxiety, I would spend a lot of time there, because I knew that that was not a place they would go. So running away was a strategy that I used and would probably have been what I would have done. Just run away.1:00:21 Daniel: So you got married?1:00:22 Evelyn: I did.1:00:23 Daniel: Yes, and now, you're having sex?1:00:30 Evelyn: Uh-huh.1:00:32 Daniel: How did the things you learned before marriage help you or not help you in your sex life?1:00:39 Evelyn: Oh, boy, they helped me, but there was a long way to go.1:00:45 Daniel: So it wasn't automatic, you now...1:00:47 Evelyn: No way.1:00:49 Daniel: And part of this also is you're learning yourself in a later phase of your life, and so this is... Even if you're learning earlier on there's no comparison to having another intimate person in your sexual life. And so as much as you're comfortable tell us about the... What are some obstacles you had to face and how did you use these skills to help you through it?1:01:14 Evelyn: Okay, well, the major obstacle that we ran into was that sex was very painful for me. And I think that if I had not had the experiences prior to marriage that I had, I would have had no idea what to do from there. I would either have completely cut off sex and decided that that was not something we could do, or honestly, more likely I would have continued to say yes but absolutely hated it and felt every experience being something that pushed me farther away rather than bringing me closer to my husband.1:02:03 Daniel: So you mentioned painful sex?1:02:05 Evelyn: Yes.1:02:06 Daniel: You later found out through a medical check-up what that was and something that a lot of people still don't understand. Do you mind talking about that?1:02:13 Evelyn: No, I don't mind at all. I guess this goes back to how my prior experiences helped me, because I was willing to talk about it and so we had a lot of conversations, my husband and I, and I really felt committed to figuring out what was going on, and part of that was going to see the doctor. So I made an appointment with my OBGYN.1:02:37 Daniel: You knew something was wrong, whereas before, you may not have, you just might have thought, "Okay, this is just what sex is."1:02:44 Evelyn: Yeah, I might have. I mean, that would have been devastating, but yeah, I might have, but I did know that wasn't what it was supposed to be like, and I went and I spoke with the doctor, and she did some checking, and she said that I had vaginismus and she prescribed some physical therapy, so I was able to go and work with a physical therapist weekly for several months.1:03:20 Daniel: These involved dilators?1:03:20 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did dilators, we did massage, which not as fun as the other kind of massage, sorry, but was helpful. [chuckle]1:03:30 Daniel: Not With a physical therapist. But it was helpful.1:03:34 Evelyn: It was helpful.1:03:35 Daniel: Joking aside, it was helpful.1:03:37 Evelyn: All joking aside, it was helpful, because I started to gradually get to work on the physical part. I didn't enjoy using the dilators at all.1:03:48 Daniel: No. I can't even imagine.1:03:49 Evelyn: Not very fun, but I could put on a TV show or something like that, and distract myself a little bit.1:03:56 Daniel: So the physical therapist... Way to be, way to order support there. The dilators, the physical therapist, did that help resolve the pain?1:04:10 Evelyn: It definitely made significant progress toward it, but it was incomplete without the communication.1:04:17 Daniel: Was masturbation involved in this at all?1:04:21 Evelyn: Little bit, yeah.1:04:22 Daniel: So in your marriage, you're using masturbation.1:04:25 Evelyn: Well, what I used it for, I would say at that point, was to assist me with the physical therapy.1:04:32 Daniel: Yes. That would make sense.1:04:35 Evelyn: Because it did help there.1:04:35 Daniel: Warm things up. Yeah.1:04:37 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.1:04:39 Daniel: What about other times in your marriage, do you... Was masturbation used as a...1:04:45 Evelyn: Hasn't been, really. Not that it never would be, but we've done other things.1:04:51 Daniel: Good.[chuckle]1:04:57 Evelyn: I feel like the physical aspects were part of it, and so I was able to work on those, but the other piece of it that was really important was being able to work on the psychological and talk and go slow and be patient and enjoy whatever it is that we can enjoy, what pieces of it, as we continue to develop.1:05:23 Daniel: Evelyn, you've been so open here, and I assure you there are many listening to this who maybe even in tears, just feeling comforted from the words that you're using. Is there any, as we're wrapping up here, any advice that you would specifically give young women maybe who were in your shoes as a teenager or currently are, or anyone, what advice would you give?1:05:54 Evelyn: Well, I think something that I would like to have been able to tell my younger self is that, that feeling arousal is something that happens to people, and I felt so alone because of the way that it was being talked about, and I don't want to villainize any of the wonderful people that I got to work with as a youth, because they were incredible leaders. They touched my life and they blessed my life in so many ways, and they were absolutely doing the best that they could. Having said that, though, no one ever told me that feeling arousal is something that people experience and that it is not a sin, and it's just something that happens because that's the way we're built.1:06:58

0:00:05 Daniel: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess, is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today we have on the line, Anarie. And she will be sharing with us, her personal experiences around porn addiction in her relationship, and her experiences with addiction recovery treatment. Welcome to the show, Anarie.0:00:49 Anarie: Thanks Daniel.0:00:51 Daniel: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us some details, who are you, and tell us a little bit about your experience?0:01:00 Anarie: Hey. I am in my early 30s. I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have two kids, ages eight and five. I was married for 11 years. We were married in a temple. And we had our divorce finalized about four months ago, and separated about a year ago. So, that's kinda where I'm at.0:01:24 Daniel: This is pretty recent and fresh. And I appreciate you, even with that, coming on and sharing your experiences here. Give us a little background on the... You shared with me that, was it your husband or you, who is experiencing the issues around pornography? Let's start there.0:01:47 Anarie: It was my husband.0:01:48 Daniel: Your husband. And how long into the marriage or before the marriage did you know that there was a problem?0:01:55 Anarie: So, we dated for about nine months before we got married. A pretty short time. Looking back at the time, it seemed like a long time. But about two months into our dating, kind of the time when we went fairly exclusive, he told me that he had had struggles with pornography before his mission. He was a return missionary at the time we were dating. He told me he'd had some trouble with it before his mission, that he'd resolved it with his Bishop, at that time.0:02:25 Anarie: And that since then, that it had been no issue at all, that he had no struggle with it during his mission. And but since meeting me, felt extra strong and resisting but he wanted me to know that that had been a part of his past. So I took his word for it, that it was in the past and that it was several years since he'd had a struggle with it. At that time, we didn't really talk about it very much other than I basically said, "Hey I don't expect you to be perfect, I'm proud of you for resolving it." And it sort of went to rest at that time.0:03:11 Anarie: Then about nine months after we were married, is when I found out that he was still actively using pornography and masturbating without my knowledge. And I found that out, there were some things off in our marriage, in our sexual relationship right from the beginning. And sort of when I was pressing into some of that, that he admitted that he had viewed some. At that time he told me it was just recent and that he'd never do it again. He felt it wasn't something that he needed to talk to the Bishop about, and I was okay with that. I do feel like I had a trauma response, and I was very anxious to believe that it really was just once or twice and kinda put it away at that time.0:04:11 Daniel: What happened before? So you were at about two months into the relationship, you guys became serious. And from what I'm hearing, it's impressive. Some individuals don't even, if they feel like their porn use or whatever sin it may be, is in the past, sometimes they don't even mention it. But he was mentioning it to you at about two months in. To, I don't know, clear the air, or just keep you informed. Which seemed like a good thing. What was your experience at the time?0:04:45 Daniel: I really value what you said, you said, "You know it's in the past." But emotionally, what were you experiencing? Were you thinking, "Oh boy, this is gonna be a potential issue in the future."? Or did you feel like, "Oh, it's taken care of, this shouldn't be a problem, going forward."? What were you experiencing?0:05:03 Anarie: That's a great question. I was nervous about it. It was a little bit of a concern. And actually, about a month before we got married, my older sister said to me, "Make sure you've talked to him about pornography. Make sure you've asked him about pornography use." And I said. "Oh... "0:05:22 Daniel: She did that just randomly, or did she already know?0:05:25 Anarie: Yes.0:05:25 Daniel: Okay.0:05:26 Anarie: No, she didn't know. And I didn't tell her. I told her, "Yes, we've had the conversation." And she seemed to imply that if there was pornography use that I shouldn't be marrying him. I very much wanted to marry him, so I chose not to tell her that that was something that had been a problem in the past. So I was a little bit nervous about it.0:05:49 Daniel: Did that scare you?0:05:50 Anarie: I knew it could potentially be a problem in the future. Yeah.0:05:53 Daniel: When she said, "If there's any pornography, don't pursue the marriage." I think it sounds pretty clear why you didn't share more, is because he had issues...0:06:05 Anarie: And I think rather than not pursuing the marriage, he was encouraging to take it seriously.0:06:10 Daniel: Oh absolutely, right.0:06:12 Anarie: And to not just dismiss it. Which I probably dismissed it more than I should have.0:06:21 Daniel: You said, before we went back to the dating phase, you were starting to talk about how you're seeing some signs after he'd mentioned he had ongoing issues. Did I hear you correctly?0:06:33 Anarie: Yes, yeah.0:06:34 Daniel: What were those indicators, those red flags, so to speak?0:06:38 Anarie: We did not have a good sexual relationship right from the beginning of our marriage. We didn't have sex very often. There were just a lot of things that were really weird, that seemed like they weren't typical at all for what I'd heard initial marriage was supposed to be like. And...0:07:04 Daniel: For the sake of the listeners and their, for a variety of experiences, are you comfortable with maybe giving some of those specifics? What did you see as...0:07:14 Anarie: Oh, what I was expecting?0:07:15 Daniel: Yeah. What you were expecting, or what seemed off?0:07:18 Anarie: I think I was expecting honeymoon phase, where we have sex multiple times a week, multiple times a day. I felt, before we were married, there was lots of sexual tension and lots of sexual interest, and so in my mind, I thought that once we got married, we were gonna have sex a whole bunch, and it was gonna be really fantastic, and we were gonna want each other whole bunch. And that's not what happened, when we got married there actually was a significant decrease in any sort of sexual tension or sexual interest.0:07:56 Daniel: Even though it sounds like you were wanting more frequent sex at that time, and were you communicating that, or did it just dry up real quick?0:08:08 Anarie: Yes, I was communicating it. Through our whole marriage, we had what would be termed as a sexless marriage, sex fewer than 12 times a year. And I was the one who consistently was saying, "Hey, I want more. This isn't right. What's wrong?" Reading lots of books. I took on a lot of the blame for that, and I think because by taking on the blame myself, it was something that I could fix.0:08:42 Anarie: So I read lots of things about Good Girl Syndrome, about maybe why... 'Cause he would sort of say that I wasn't responding the way that I should, and so he didn't want to, or usually when I tried to talk to him about it, it just sort of... It was almost like we couldn't talk about it, it never went much of anywhere. I expressed a lot of like my things, but then there was never much response from him.0:09:11 Daniel: Traditionally, we think of the husband as the higher sex desire partner. Was that confusing to you to see he had a lower desire than you, and that the sex was infrequent? Was that part of the reason why you're taking on the blame?0:09:27 Anarie: It was very confusing to me, especially because prior to our marriage, I was the boundary keeper, he was always pushing the boundaries sexually, and I was the boundary keeper. So then it was really confusing when we got married, and suddenly it was different. I wasn't feeling that desire from him any more.0:09:51 Daniel: And what was he saying, what was the feedback? And I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, and the listeners are taking this at the value... From your perspective. With that being said, what information was he giving to you? Was he saying that he wasn't attracted to you, or what was the reasoning he was giving?0:10:15 Anarie: Not really any reason at all. After a while, as I read more books and stuff, we did have the high desire-low desire. And so he would say, "I guess I'm just a lower-desire person," or... But no, there was never much explanation. I would say things like, I did believe that he wanted me before marriage and after marriage, he didn't, so that must mean that I was a disappointment, so I was the problem, I think that was part of it too. And so a lot of that, I was the one saying, and he didn't really counter it. I mean, he would say, "No, that's not the case," but then he'd never tell me why or do anything to make me believe anything different, in terms of attractiveness and interest, if that makes sense?0:11:11 Daniel: So the absence of information left you with very little to go off of, and it was like you didn't feel that attraction towards you, and he wasn't refuting it, so what else were you left to believe? Interesting.0:11:24 Anarie: Yeah. And so I filled a lot of that void with my own ideas and my own beliefs, and read books to try to figure it out.0:11:34 Daniel: So from there, that was about, you said, nine months into the marriage. Then when did... You're doing all this research, when did it finally become clear that this was actually being as a result of his porn use or masturbation? How far into that discovery was it?0:11:54 Anarie: Okay, so I'm actually kind of embarrassed that it was so long, but it was years before I really got clear that it was pornography, that it was still an active issue. We went to a couple of therapists, we went to one at LDS Family Services, and this was probably four years into our marriage. And so that was fairly traumatic for me, 'cause it ended up feeling very much like... The therapist that we went to... We only went to one session, so... And it was my first therapy experience, but I felt very much like the male therapist and my male husband were looking at me, confirming that I was the problem and waiting for me to get on board or figure something out. I don't remember any discussion of pornography in that session.0:12:57 Daniel: What were they then saying, or what... How do I ask this? You felt it like you were the problem. What were they identifying as the problem, specifically?0:13:11 Anarie: My lack of trust in him. So that actually... And that's something that my husband would say to me a lot. I would ask him about porn, so during this time, I would ask him about it, and he would tell me, "No, I'm not using it. I haven't for years." And he would say, "You need to trust me." So even though he knew that he was not trustworthy, but that was what he was using. It's something that needed to be resolved, is I needed to forgive and I needed to move on and I needed to trust.0:13:47 Daniel: It was manipulative. He knew he wasn't being trustworthy, yet asking for your trust.0:13:53 Anarie: Right. Yeah, yeah. And I was overriding a lot of my gut instinct. I can see now, looking back, that I didn't feel safe with him, and I didn't trust him, and I wasn't able to connect with him because he wasn't being truthful and he wasn't being safe. But I was so unwilling at that time to look at that reality, to believe that he could be lying to my face, that I was taking it all on myself and trying to fix it that way.0:14:23 Daniel: Unfortunately. An unfortunate event, not only the betrayal from your husband, but coming across the therapist who, is what we call triangulating, siding essentially with one person in the experience. But it sound like you got rid of that person pretty quickly, you only had one session.0:14:44 Anarie: Part of it was because he was male and I specifically wanted a female therapist. I felt like it would, I would feel safer. So the second therapist we went to was female, and we went to her for several months. And that was interesting. The only conversation about pornography that we had there was, I remember she asked him directly once if he had current use of pornography. He said, "No."0:15:10 Anarie: So then, all of the conversations about how I couldn't get over his past pornography use and how that was interfering and during that time, we were assigned to have sex a certain number of times a week or a month and report back. And when it was an assignment, it happened, so he was willing to engage with me when it was an assignment, when we were reporting back to the therapist. And I think I felt hopeful, so maybe we just needed to get jump started. So that when we were no longer going to that therapist, it again, that essentially disappeared.0:15:48 Daniel: Again, I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, but that sounds a little... For the sake of the listener, he wasn't, am I following you right, he wasn't willing to have more sex with you when you were asking for it but when it was an assignment from the therapist, he would meet that assignment? Is that what you're saying?0:16:07 Anarie: Yes, yes, yeah.0:16:08 Daniel: What do you think was the difference? Do you think he was wanting to meet a commitment with the therapist, or impress the therapist, or why the difference there? Why was he willing to comply as an assignment?0:16:22 Anarie: I think it may have been partly that; I also think there's a rejection factor, that because it was assigned by the therapist, it was clearly mutually greed, that he was on board and I was on board, so there was no risk of him initiating something sexually and having me feel unsafe or not want it, or be hesitant. Does that makes sense?0:16:44 Daniel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it seems to make sense, especially in the context of what we're talking about here. And what about your hurt; what about your trauma in this experience? Was the therapist mindful of your experiences?0:17:00 Anarie: No, I don't think she had much knowledge of betrayal trauma at all and I didn't have much vocabulary for that either. I don't know that I even knew what betrayal trauma was as a category or how it might be impacting me. Once I learned about betrayal trauma, then my response to everything made so much sense, my response over the years.0:17:24 Daniel: And you said how long were you seeing this particular therapist?0:17:29 Anarie: I think it was about four months. And it was right after the birth of... I think it was when my oldest was about a year old, so four years after our marriage, and we had a one-year-old baby at home.0:17:42 Daniel: And this, I think you're saying seemed to provide some sort of hope, because you're having more frequent sex, things seemed to be improving, but emotionally they weren't.0:17:54 Anarie: Yes. And I would often say to my husband; I felt like I was begging, "Please give me another chance. Can we try again? Can we do this more often?" And he would say, "Yes."0:18:07 Daniel: Wait, wait, begging for what? Sex, or just stay married?0:18:10 Anarie: For us to have sex, for us to have sex more often.0:18:13 Daniel: Oh, okay.0:18:15 Anarie: I talked to... One other thing that was going on here is I did talk to my OB-GYN about vaginismus, and got some information about a program for that.0:18:27 Daniel: So you were, you're experiencing painful sex also?0:18:29 Anarie: Yes. And I think largely due to no foreplay and no arousal. So I don't know that... The vaginismus program wasn't super helpful for me, because I think...0:18:47 Daniel: The foreplay was absent.0:18:49 Anarie: Yeah, there was no arousal happening at all, so of course it was painful and not awesome for me.0:18:57 Daniel: But even with the painful sex, you were still craving... Maybe craving isn't the right word, desiring more frequent sex from him.0:19:06 Anarie: Yes. I think a lot because I had been taught to believe that it was my responsibility as a wife to meet my husband's sexual needs and to fulfill my husband sexually. And I had been, I'd heard from parents and from church leaders that men who are happy with their wives don't look at porn. Which is a incredibly harmful message, that I had internalized and was accepting as part of truth. So I think part of it too was I knew that pornography had been an issue for him, and so one of my ways of helping him with that was gonna be to have sex with him, and then it wasn't working.0:19:49 Daniel: That's powerful.0:19:50 Anarie: I don't know if that makes sense, but that's...0:19:52 Daniel: It actually... You read... Yeah, well, I was about to ask that question, about how much of this was a preventative measure? You felt it was your responsibility as the wife in this eternal marriage to protect and provide a source for his outlet, to prevent him from pornography?0:20:12 Anarie: Yes.0:20:13 Daniel: You're desiring more sex, but there was also a strong element there of, "Okay, if I'm desirable enough to him he won't venture into this icky place," right?0:20:24 Anarie: Yeah, I felt like it was part of my responsibility as a good wife to have a good sexual relationship. I also think, my parents had also told me that sex is a beautiful thing. And once you're married, it's a beautiful part of life. So I do feel like I had a lot of positive affirmation for sex as well.0:20:42 Daniel: But you're like, "Where's the beauty?" [chuckle]0:20:45 Anarie: Yes, yeah. But I felt like I wanted that. And I wanted to make it happen, and I wasn't just gonna settle for like, "Oh, I guess sex is stupid and painful, and so good riddance." I wasn't content to just write it off as, "Okay, well, I guess we won't do this."0:21:03 Daniel: There are quite a few spouses out there that are in similar positions as you and, I don't have any statistics at all, but at least with my anecdotal experience and things that I've read, it seems like a lot of wives will go to a place of... They will actually stop having sex. But you were trying to make this beautiful. You were trying to achieve this thing that your parents were saying is good.0:21:34 Anarie: Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And so that was amazing. That's, you weren't giving up on this hope that it could be something wonderful. So when did things, so to speak, hit the fan? When did you... Did he finally come out and say, "You know what, it's not you, it's been the pornography." What happened there, how did that occur?0:21:55 Anarie: Okay, so it was when my... Let's see, my five-year-old was a year old. Yeah, so our second child was a year old, and by that point, I felt like I had read all the books and talked to my doctor. Essentially, I felt like I had done everything to fix myself and to educate myself. I kinda felt like I'd hit a limit on what I could do on my end. And so I...0:22:32 Daniel: This was what, about five, six years in your marriage?0:22:35 Anarie: So this was about four years ago. So yeah, so it's seven years...0:22:40 Daniel: Seven years into the marriage.0:22:41 Anarie: Seven years into our marriage.0:22:42 Daniel: Wow, so this is...0:22:42 Anarie: So, yeah...0:22:43 Daniel: Wow, okay, good.0:22:46 Anarie: So I got to the point where I basically told him, "I am done with our marriage. I'm not willing to live in a marriage like this. It's not okay with me." By then, also, I had seen a lot more, I'd gotten a lot smarter about pornography usage. So I think a lot of my denial, believing that he was not actually engaging, had been broken down, because I actually started believing a lot of the studies, a lot of the information that was saying that pornography is an ongoing problem, that you don't just turn it off, like he was claiming he'd done. So basically I said, "I've done everything I can. Either you start talking and you start doing something, or I'm out of this marriage. I'm done."0:23:42 Anarie: And I really was to the point where I was willing to get divorced over this. That I didn't want to live in a emotionally disconnected sexless marriage. We were great. We've always been great business partners, good at coordinating logistical things. So the other aspects of what I believe should be part of marriage were completely non-existent. So I believe it was at that point when he realized that I was dead serious that... So by continuing to lie and hide his addiction, he was going to lose the marriage that he decided to start disclosing.0:24:18 Daniel: And can I ask you a personal question here? Is...0:24:22 Anarie: Yeah.0:24:23 Daniel: Were you at any time in that seven years trying to find clues, or go through his internet history or browser, and see if... Were you checking it?0:24:37 Anarie: No.0:24:37 Daniel: Wow, I'm impressed.0:24:39 Anarie: No, I didn't, I didn't play detective like that.0:24:42 Daniel: No, and forgive me, I'm not suggesting you should have, or anybody else should have. I'm just curious to what extent you were... You had a gut feeling, things weren't adding up, and you wanted to believe him, but there was something just off and...0:24:58 Anarie: Well, I am sort of amazed that I... Looking back, there was evidence. I did actually see some things that I should have realized were linked to current pornography usage. But I didn't. One other thing here that I wanna mention is that, about when we were going to that female therapist, you know, a few years into our marriage.0:25:21 Daniel: Right.0:25:23 Anarie: One of the things that came up was that he had never gone and talked to the Bishop after that initial disclosure nine months into our marriage. So I expressed that maybe if he went and talked to the Bishop to resolve that old issue with pornography nine months into our marriage, then I would be able to relax about it and trust him. So he went to our Bishop. And, I was not there so I don't know exactly what was said, but basically he disclosed that he'd viewed pornography within the first year of our marriage, and that it had been really devastating to me. So he told the Bishop some story, and about three weeks later, he was called as elders quorum president in our ward. Which I took to be a sign from God that he was clear.0:26:15 Daniel: Oh.0:26:16 Anarie: That the pornography issue was resolved. So I think that that was also part of why I refused to acknowledge that it was still actively happening all the time.0:26:28 Daniel: So you gave him this... Gosh, it almost sounds like an ultimatum. You were saying, "I'm done here. You gotta bring it forward," seven years into the marriage, what was his response?0:26:42 Anarie: He started disclosing some things. It was a staggering disclosure. He started admitting that he had... At first he just said that he had masturbated. So he'd been actively masturbating. And, which was upsetting to me but also relieving, "Oh, so that's where your sexual... You are a sexual person. That's where your sexual energy is going." And he said it at first that it was like old... He was using old mental images from his prior pornography use and stuff. So over the course of two or three weeks, he started disclosing more that, "Okay, there had been pornography use, but not in the last year."0:27:29 Anarie: Now that I know more about addiction or sexual addiction and how these disclosures generally happen, it really did fit the framework a lot, that he would disclose a little bit and see how I reacted, and then disclose a little bit more, or based on how I responded or what his shame was. And it was about three weeks after he initially started disclosing that he went to our current bishop. It was his initiation. He went to our current bishop and talked to his parents. And then, I talked to my parents and got in touch with a Lifestar therapist. And we were able to pretty quickly get into a sexual addiction recovery program.0:28:13 Daniel: So, now that you hear what's going on, you're able to get the right resources in there, at least different resources. So what was your experience? Was that... I asked these questions... I know you mentioned at the beginning you're divorced now, what was that experience like for you? Was it helpful?0:28:30 Anarie: It was very helpful, yes. I think we both felt a lot of relief that we had a problem that was identified, and that we could seek treatment for. So, there was a clear path for us to get on now. Whereas before it was like, "Something's wrong in our marriage, what's wrong? What's wrong? How do we fix this?" At least what was going on on my end. And with the pornography sexual addiction model, that gave, "Oh, there's a clear problem, there's a name for it, there's a name for what I'm experiencing, there's a treatment plan, there are other people that are experiencing this." So I feel like it immediately brought a sense of release and hope and safety that we would be able to figure this out.0:29:23 Daniel: For those who aren't familiar with Lifestar out in Utah, I think they're actually in a couple of different other states now but, for those who aren't familiar with addiction treatment, behavior treatment, what was that like? So you're saying now they're actually focusing on the pornography, and they're providing a treatment plan. Help the audience understand what does that mean? What does that look like?0:29:49 Anarie: Okay. So, the first part of Lifestar is called, Phase One, and it's a six-week education phase that couples attend together. If they want to. Sometimes individuals come 'cause their spouse won't come. But generally it's attended by couples, it's six weeks and basically it's kind of... I said educational 'cause the therapist presents information, and we had workbooks to do learning about addiction, learning about shame, some basic family of origin things. A little bit about drama triangle, attachment principles, and, during those we would sometimes break into smaller groups and share some answers from our workbooks. But for the most part, it was not a group therapy kind of experience.0:30:41 Anarie: Then after that six week, Phase One, then Phase Two starts, and that's when each person goes to their group therapy. So it's divided based on gender. So I had my group, and he had his group, and that was a group therapy, a weekly group therapy session. And we had additional workbooks and assignments that we would each work through in our individual groups; and their groups were led by a therapist. The Lifestar program is administered by different therapists, so it's like a franchise type of thing. And, the program that we did it in, the therapist really believes in not setting strict time parameters.0:31:29 Anarie: So, we were actually... Compared to some others where it's like phase two is six months and then you moved to the next phase. It was much more based on readiness and reaching a certain emotional place. So, compared to some other Lifestar group, I was in Lifestar for a total of three years before I completed it.0:31:50 Daniel: Is that...0:31:51 Anarie: And a lot of people do the Lifestar program in 18 months.0:31:54 Daniel: Yeah, you answered my question.0:31:54 Anarie: So I just wanna throw that out there, that's my experience, it's a little different from other Lifestar experiences. After about a year of... Or maybe 10 months of Phase Two, I graduated to Phase Three. And the reason for the different phases is just because it keeps people in the group that are in a similar stage of recovery, 'cause early recovery and fresh raw trauma looks and feels and sounds different than a little further down the recovery road. So, moving from Phase Two to Phase Three, it was more about...0:32:34 Anarie: There was a little change in focus, much less like raw trauma. And so, that's why there it was divided by phase. And in Phase Three, there were different assignments. One significant thing that's done... And they've changed it a little bit now, but there's a formal disclosure that happens during Phase Two, if both parties are willing, and it's a therapeutic disclosure. So the couple meet with the therapist, and it's a organized disclosure where the addict discloses to their spouse all of their behavior, behaviors in the addiction, and the spouse prepares questions in advance to ask.0:33:20 Anarie: So it's a chance to clear the air, start fresh, to ask questions in a safe environment, with a therapist you can hopefully watch for signs of lying or... And for me it was kind of healing because there had been a lot of unhealthy disclosure, it was helpful to have that formal disclosure where I had support, I knew it was coming, I had a therapist, I had friends. So in a way, that was able to heal some of the more traumatic earlier disclosures. So anyway, that was also...[overlapping conversation]0:33:52 Daniel: What a wonderful resource. So during that three years, you're taking it your own pace, working through your own trauma. So this is wonderful, you finally it sounds like now that you have your own cohort, so to speak, or a group of people that you can trust. You're able to now work through your trauma, your hurt, while he's dealing with his struggles. Did you see during that three-year period the relationship improve, or what was the result of attending these different phases?0:34:29 Anarie: Okay, so I do wanna throw in real quick that we also did individual therapy, we each had individual therapy sessions in the same group.0:34:35 Daniel: There at Lifestar, or somewhere separate?0:34:38 Anarie: We did it with the same therapist. So the therapist that led our lifestyle group was also the therapist we went to for our individual sessions, through most of it.0:34:49 Daniel: Excellent. So they understood what you were doing. And that's great. The reason why I point that out is, I think that's actually wonderful. In fact, studies show that if you only do group treatment, you don't have as high success rate. If you combine individual and group treatment, the success rate goes up. And the fact that your therapist was familiar with the program allowed that, I guess synergy, or you don't have to re-explain everything why you're doing what you're doing, or anything like that.0:35:22 Anarie: It integrated really well in taking place.0:35:24 Daniel: Exactly.0:35:25 Anarie: It was really helpful. We did have some couple sessions often on during that time mostly after disclosure and we did the couple sessions as well with the same therapist. When I was in phase three so in the third year of recovery I did go to an outside therapist for a period of time and that was really, really helpful for me. And looking back, I would say that I wish that we would have done some couples therapy with another therapist as well. I think because all of our treatment was coming from the same therapist there was some more... There were just some issues that came up with that but I think there might have been more safety if we had had some other therapist as well.0:36:08 Daniel: Would you point that out if you feel comfortable in doing that. I think that's actually a really important fact that people don't realize. There's a couple of elements here, and I'll share with you my thoughts, and then tell me what it was for you. I personally I'm very comfortable in doing individual and couples with the same people, there are limitations and there are exceptions there and that's usually discovered in the intake processes, is what we call it, and if I feel like it will be a benefit to both the individual and as a couple.0:36:43 Daniel: But there are cases where it's even if I'm comfortable with it, it's not a wise move or it's not a good way to support the couple because of the dynamics or whatever it is there and so a lot of clients will sometimes seek that from a therapist and there comes the other issues if a therapist is confident to navigate and to be able to separate the individual versus the couple experience there and sometimes bringing them together and so the individual seeking that kind of treatment both the individual and couples therapy, need to be aware of that in the risks and the benefits from that. What was your personal experience with that?0:37:27 Anarie: So, I feel that there were some very real benefit, because that therapist was aware, very aware of where each of us was individually. I think that that aided him in a lot of our sessions to... I don't know, I think he was aware of things that we didn't have to talk about 'cause he already knew but I think the biggest reason that I would say I wish we would have gone to someone else with kind of a safety thing.0:38:00 Anarie: So there were times that I felt like our therapist was on my husband's side, and there were times when my husband felt like the therapist was on my side. Whether or not that was accurate, I do think that... And maybe that would have happened with any therapist, but that came up. My perspective from me right now, and my therapist has acknowledged this, is that there was some manipulation, my husband manipulated the therapist. And that was part of why, when I went to an outside therapist, that was really helpful and empowering for me, because that other therapist had not been manipulated by my husband. So, I don't know.0:38:51 Daniel: That's... Yeah.0:38:54 Anarie: Because the therapists that we shared was so in it for multiple years and so he started giving blind spots and there are some things that he didn't see at the time that happens with any therapist.0:39:09 Daniel: Yeah, I think this is a very valid point, one that's kinda hard to communicate in a brief interview like this. And there's a lot of caveats here, I understand very well what you're talking about. I've even had to be very careful with working with couples that I'd known for a long time, or have been... Or I'm following up with, and knowing when and how to ask the right questions. It's very difficult when you have built that relationship, and you're not necessarily looking for all the signs of manipulation. And I'm gonna be cautious here. I'm tempted to say a good therapist can see those signs, but that means we would have to be perfect too.0:39:51 Anarie: Right. Yeah.0:39:52 Daniel: It's a very difficult experience.0:39:54 Anarie: Yeah. Well, and I think my main message to any of the listeners would be, I know it's really scary to get in with an initial therapist. At least it was for me. For me it was really scary to get into therapy, to build a relationship with a therapist, to be vulnerable about these things. So it was really scary to go find another therapist, another person, especially because I'd had some bad experiences...0:40:18 Daniel: Exactly.0:40:18 Anarie: With therapists before. I had some therapist trauma. But if you're feeling like you want another therapist, you want another perspective, a good therapist is not gonna be threatened by you wanting to go talk to somebody else for a period of time.0:40:31 Daniel: Thank you for saying that. Absolutely.0:40:34 Anarie: And you can get the support that you need to go talk to another therapist, or to go as a couple and try talking to another therapist.0:40:43 Daniel: I think you've brought up...0:40:44 Anarie: That you don't have to be still fiercely loyal to one therapist.0:40:50 Daniel: Absolutely, and I think that's a good way to approach it. First of all, trust your gut. You've had, whether there was actual manipulation going on or not, whether the therapist was siding with you or not, your experience is real and valid in that moment. There's a lot going on there's trauma, there's hurt, there's confusion. Trust your gut. First of all, trust your gut. And it is scary trying to get, especially if you've had bad experiences like you did with therapists, pose that question, "Do you mind if I look for another therapist for this?"0:41:25 Daniel: And their response I think will be a great indicator of maybe their motivation, or whether or not you should go get another therapist. If they get kind of awkward or embarrassed, or question, "Why would you do that?" Or if they even kind of stonewall in a way, "Well, we have all this history. How are you gonna communicate that history, and how will they follow our treatment plan?" That's a good indicator that you probably should go look a good therapist, like you said, will be totally supportive. Absolutely, go for it. This is your experience, do what you feel is important.0:42:07 Anarie: And I think sometimes, going to another therapist, I know this is sort of a tangent, but it could be motivated by wanting to run away from your current therapist. Maybe they're wanting you to look at some things you don't want to. So that could also be a factor but.0:42:22 Daniel: That is true. That's why it's hard. I think it's important to, kind of a tangent, but kind of not. This is all part of that experience in realizing what's happening here, especially when you have a partner who's manipulating you. Especially if there's been manipulation in the relationship, that therapist should be joining with you and building that trust, right?0:42:43 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah.0:42:46 Daniel: Yes there is a potential that you're running away, but you know what, you get to. You're having this experience and you need to have somebody who can trust you in this experience. And I've had people come back and say, "You know what? I was running away, and I realized that." And I'm putting it into my own words, but eventually he came out and says, "Thank you for letting me do that. I wouldn't have learned this if you prevented me or discouraged me from doing that."0:43:19 Anarie: Yeah.0:43:19 Daniel: And so, you're absolutely right. People are gonna run away when they don't like hearing what they're hearing but part of the experience is supporting that person in that experience, 'cause that's really what you're asking your husband to do, is, "This is scary. You should have been upfront with me from the beginning, regardless of my response. It's scary, I get it, this is scary for me, too. I need you to be open with me just like I should be open with you." And so, great, great. I think that was an important tangent. If we wanna call it a tangent. So...0:43:51 Anarie: One other thing I wanna...0:43:52 Daniel: Go for it.0:43:52 Anarie: Real quick, another part of my recovery over the last four years has been a 12 step program. The one that I have found most supportive was at a Lifeline group. So I did go to some of the LDS church's ARP program, and did not find them to be as supportive as I did the 12 step groups that are done through S.A Lifeline. [0:44:23] ____.0:44:24 Daniel: Oh, no, I think that's important. And if you could boil it down to one or two things. Why was it not as supportive...0:44:32 Anarie: Okay, so I wanna say at first ARP was wonderful, right at first, I'm super grateful that there was a place to go immediately, and that there was a place within a gospel context and within a gospel framework. So I did attend ARP continuously for about six months, and I was grateful for it. It met a need at the time. The biggest thing that I felt was not supportive about ARP, was actually the way that it was structured, that it was, it is missionaries that lead the ARP group, and a lot of them are not sufficiently educated on the topic on what they're dealing with.0:45:10 Daniel: Yeah.0:45:10 Anarie: And a lot of them spent a lot of time sharing. The missionaries would spend time sharing and teaching and lecturing things that were not actually helpful, were inadvertently shaming, and created a lack of safety. Another thing that I saw happen in the ARP group, in recovery there's a real need to give permission for emotion, and for letting your experience be what it is, and for having that experience be validated. And within the context of ARP, often it felt like there were certain emotions that were okay to have, and there certain emotions that were not okay.0:45:53 Anarie: Or that... And boundaries are important in any group, but I felt like there was not adequate space in ARP for anger. I felt like there was a real jump to forgiveness and share positive things and share faith things, faith-promoting things. And there's a place for that, but when you're down on the ground in, especially the immediate aftermath of trauma, there's so much anger and there's so much hurt. And there's, it rocks you spiritually.0:46:25 Anarie: I've gone through times where I don't even believe in God. I feel like, I know my betrayal that I experienced, it ran deep, a lot of it impacted my relationship with God. So there were times when I felt like I couldn't believe in God the way that that group was wanting me to believe in God. So for me it kind of increased the shame.0:46:47 Daniel: That is so...0:46:48 Anarie: Some of my shame experience there. Compared to the S.A Lifeline, where it's more general language, you talk about a higher power. And there I felt so much permission in that group to be wherever I was at, without feeling like I needed to show only the nicer part, or to be immediately jumping to the right way of saying things. If that makes sense?0:47:10 Daniel: I really appreciate you sharing that, about ARP. I think it's a great resource that is offered. I also agree that it's not for everyone, and I will say it's not for most people. I'm gonna say that very carefully for the very reason you've just mentioned. Untrained volunteers who are doing their best but not aware of how a lack of safety is created by reverting to forgiveness versus allowing that anger to be present and understanding how that can be healing in a group of people with a common experience.0:47:55 Anarie: Yeah.0:47:56 Daniel: Thank you so much. I don't wanna come across as criticizing ARP, I think it's a resource, but I think it's just that, a resource.0:48:06 Anarie: Yes, and I was incredibly grateful that it was there for me at the time, and by going there and talking to some of the people in the group, that's how I learned about some of these other resources as well. And I think that the experience in an ARP group it can be heavily dependent on who the missionaries are, and who else is there in the group.0:48:27 Daniel: Absolutely. So let's come... Thank you, I think that was very important. Let's come back around to... You have so much good information, I love it, I absolutely love it, but I'm trying to remember if we actually answered the question. In that three years of going to Lifestar, and these other various treatments, did we see progress in the relationship? What was a result of that?0:48:51 Anarie: Okay, so in terms of our relationship, we did not really, we were not very successful at connecting emotionally, through the three years. At different times we did. And I'm not entirely sure why. I felt like I made lots of individual progress, lots of individual healing and growth. And relationships with family, I saw relationships with my family members and with my friends, radically transforming and changing.0:49:38 Anarie: Within my marriage though, and my relationship with my husband, I was not seeing and experiencing much fundamental change. We were not connecting sexually, we were not connecting emotionally, really, through that process. We were supportive of each other in our individual journeys, but sort of in the same old like logistical business partner-y kind of way that it had been before.0:50:15 Daniel: So you don't want... You don't want a eternal business relationship, you want an eternal marriage.0:50:22 Anarie: Right.0:50:22 Daniel: So...0:50:23 Anarie: And I was... He might say The reason we didn't have a sexual relationship was because of my boundaries, and I would say, "Well my boundaries were where they were because there was still no emotional safety." I wasn't feeling... I didn't have trust restored, in like, I believe his disclosure was honest. I think I do.0:50:54 Daniel: You mean the disclosure in Phase One, or Phase Two?0:50:57 Anarie: The formal disclosure.0:51:00 Daniel: Okay.0:51:00 Anarie: Yeah, and I appreciated him sharing that. And immediately after there was some connection. He supposedly was able to achieve sobriety really early in the program. So a lot of times during the process of Lifestar, there's opportunity to work on conversation about experiences of pornography and slips, and disclosing that and working through that. And because he was so immediately sober, we didn't have much of that. So, I don't know.0:51:34 Daniel: So Tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important for the audience to hear, now quite a few episodes are available with my podcast. What is sobriety when we talk about sobriety? And it may sound like a stupid question, and you may be familiar with the way I've tried to define it, and explain what is pornography. So how did they measure that for the sake of the listener Sometimes the definition around pornography could be anything that could potentially lead to something more severe, for example, maybe looking at in a lingerie or Instagram or something like that. So how was... Did Lifestar create some sort of definition, or was this an agreed-upon sobriety? How did that get decided and navigated?0:52:25 Anarie: So, for us in Lifestar there, I think there was a certain expectation in the group of what sobriety is, which is not actively seeking out pornographic images or sexual stimulation, things that with... Because with the addiction model the addicts are turning to that as a way to medicate their feelings, and so it was a... They weren't sober if they actively went after something that would give them their sexual hits. So if they were searching for pornographic images, or...0:53:07 Daniel: Of any kind?0:53:08 Anarie: Of any kind. Or... I believe a lot of people in my husband's group, and I think in 12 steps as well, sort of had a 10-second fantasy rule, that if they engaged in fantasy for more than 10 seconds then that was considered a slip.0:53:31 Daniel: Okay.0:53:33 Anarie: Or they needed to share that with their stuff.0:53:36 Daniel: That's a pretty short, short window in reality.0:53:40 Anarie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.0:53:40 Daniel: But I actually like that concept because it's actually encouraging self-awareness. You're not penalized or you're not viewed, whether by your group yourself or whomever, as back to zero again because, oh, my goodness, my mind went into an automatic thought process, and now I have to... It seems impossible, but that self-awareness or that time allows you to become more, "Oh, my goodness, that's what's happening. Okay, I still have time to recover." And not have to count that as, "Oh, excellent, great." So he was basing sobriety, supposedly off of that.0:54:22 Anarie: Masturbation as well. No masturbation, no self-stimulation.0:54:26 Daniel: Got it.0:54:28 Anarie: But really, so much of it was about the lying. So no... And with my experience with my friends on the betrayal side of it, so much of it was about the lying and the hiding. So yes, it would hurt if there was a slip, but it in a way, it was almost healing to have those slips shared, 'cause then we were being let into that world, and we were a part of it.0:54:58 Daniel: So this is what's... What's really interesting to me, and not a criticism, 'cause I... Well, at least I like to think I understand the human behavior side of it, but now you've gotten at least, you're past phase one, into phase two, the disclosure has been made, you've had a ton of psychoeducation about what these patterns are like, and now creating this environment of trust where he can disclose to you. And you're actually finding healing from it. It feels, "Oh my goodness. You're open with me." Why would he hold that back? If you've made this success... Again, I know I'm asking you to kinda interpret from his experience.0:55:39 Anarie: Yeah, I'm not sure.0:55:41 Daniel: Okay.0:55:41 Anarie: I have wondered if shame... Just using the sexual addiction model, as like these behaviors are bad, coming from that background of these are bad and shameful, by disclosing, it's, I'm showing you again that I'm shameful.0:56:03 Daniel: For those who keep hearing the phrase, "sex addiction model", just to provide a little bit more clarity here, there are different theoretical approaches to treating sexual behavior. And one of them is what is being referred to here as this sex addiction model, which is places like Lifestar and other organizations, believe in treating this behavior. And you're bringing up an interesting point here, is even though the sex addiction model was very enlightening to you, it helped you as an individual. You made a comment about how it might have been reinforcing the shame. Is that what I heard?0:56:44 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was ideal scenario for him.0:56:51 Daniel: Can you say more about that?0:56:55 Anarie: Just because I feel like all through the recovery there was too much fear around it. Even if it was trying to be normalized, and other people struggle with this, I still feel like there was not an acknowledgement of how normal pornography use is. And I feel like there was still a lot of fear around it, and a lot of labeling of it as being bad and wrong, and...0:57:37 Daniel: So it...0:57:37 Anarie: It itself was still demonized a lot. Even if there was work done to navigate shame, like education about what role it's serving, and choosing more appropriate ways to meet some of those needs, it was still coming from this premise of, the pornography and the masturbation in and of itself is bad and wrong and... Yeah.0:58:11 Daniel: Yeah, well that makes sense. So, what I think I'm hearing here is, even though you've had this psycho-education, you're having this great support network, you're getting the resources you need for both of you and your relationship, there's a possibility that same treatment method was also reinforcing more fear. And so, even though he knew he could reveal to you, and that could be an opportunity for success and recovery, acknowledging that you slipped up again, you are now taking on all these...0:58:46 Anarie: Yeah, it still made him look like the bad guy.0:58:48 Daniel: Very much so. Again, not minimizing the seriousness of it, or giving him an excuse here, but the reality is, is when we demonize the use we then become and identify with that demon, so to speak. Right?0:59:05 Anarie: Yeah.0:59:05 Daniel: And so being able to acknowledge that even though you know you've done it, wow, that could really feed into, not only his fear, but your fear. What does it mean? You did this again. Who are you? Is that what I'm hearing?0:59:18 Anarie: Yeah, yeah. There in... I quite often heard it like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. There's the addict self and the true self. And I think there's some truth to that, and I also think it's problematic and was harmful, for both of us, to turn it into a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type of scenario. Because I believe it's more integrated.0:59:45 Daniel: This is an experience that I hear so many have, where they finally get the... I thought it was beautiful the way you described it, is they provided resources and information that resonated with you perfectly, things made sense. And your personal journey, you felt like you were getting the right support, the right help, he was being held responsible in the right way to divulge his information and his struggles. While you have this great resource, you're also seeing how it was problematic. What is...1:00:22 Anarie: Yeah, look... Oh sorry, go ahead.1:00:24 Daniel: No, absolutely, go ahead.1:00:26 Anarie: I was just gonna say, looking back there, we're dealing with a sexual issue, pornography, his masturbation, sexual addiction, but there was not much information given in our program about healthy sexuality...1:00:42 Daniel: Bingo.1:00:42 Anarie: About normal sexual development. And I know normal's a relative term, but human sexual development, there was not much information about that. Even with disclosure, hearing about a lot of the forms of acting out that he used, I still, during my time in recovery, there was so much fear that there was never really any normalization of some of those kinds of behaviors. So I would hear that he'd done this type of pornography that, to me, was extra scary and extra bad. And there was never any space to put that in a less terrifying way.1:01:30 Daniel: I think that's huge, and I think that's a thing that's missed in all treatment. Well, not all treatment, but a majority of treatment. Even in those clinics that are, like Lifestar, who are phenomenal at what they do, we focus on what not to do, right? But we don't actually explore and understand from a expert point of view, of what healthy sexual behavior looks like. We have these assumptions, but those assumptions aren't necessarily true, or need further expanding on.1:02:06 Daniel: But I also, what you said there was, the type of pornography, and there's huge misunderstandings around this. Pop-psychology, a lot of the predominant resources out there teach this idea that it's escalative behavior, and that is... There's very, very little support for that, in that somebody who's looking up maybe bondage type of pornography, or something very serious, or is perceived as something more serious than another, then that creates this whole new treatment model or severity around the person. Or there's something more sickening about the person, which is, again, problematic and not supported in treatment or in science. But you started to notice that.1:02:54 Anarie: Yeah. I feel like I needed to have my experience validated, so I was coming at it from a place of a lot of fear.1:03:03 Daniel: Of course.1:03:03 Anarie: In fact, it was really scary for me to listen to his disclosure. I had never watched a rated R movie myself at that time, and so to learn about these sexual behaviors and these kinds of pornography, that was a really scary thing for me, to have to learn about those things. And it was helpful for me to have others validate how scary and how much fear there was in that. At the same time, I feel like there could have been... I could have been validated in my fearful approach to it, and a more balanced view could have also been presented a little bit sooner, so my narrative could have been validated and some reframes could have been offered more.1:03:51 Daniel: So what would you recommend to somebody who's in your position, situation rather, and they're struggling with a similar behavior, their spouse is hiding, and you're seeking treatment? How would you... I guess what I'm asking is, What would you do different?1:04:11 Anarie: Or what would I do the same? What would I...1:04:13 Daniel: Oh yeah, fair, fair.1:04:14 Anarie: Recommend for someone in that place?1:04:16 Daniel: Yes.1:04:17 Anarie: For me, getting support from others and moving out of isolation, is so so scary. So wherever you can start to get that support from. For me, looking back, I have felt some like, "Oh, maybe we should have gone to a different program. Maybe if we would have found a better therapist." Or, "I should have not gone to ARP first, I should have... " It's really easy to get into some of that. But any support, any... Reach out to the people around you, look for the best resources that applaud any steps out of isolation, any effort to express your experience and get support. And permission to experience what you're experiencing, to feel what you're feeling.1:05:09 Anarie: However you're coming at it from, whatever you feel about it, those things are valid, and there's a place for it, and you don't need to feel ashamed for the way that you're experiencing it. So you... I heard a lot of messages about how betrayed spouses need to respond right to disclosure. So, if you freak out, they're not gonna share with you in the future. But... And there's truth to that. At the same time, when you're in fresh trauma it makes sense that you freak out and that you can't hold space for yourself the way that you might be able to further down the road. So, I guess just permission to be where you're at when you're there.1:05:57 Daniel: I really appreciate that insight right there. I will often... If we discover that disclosure has to be made, I can't tell you how valuable it is to, depending on which partner it is, in this case let's say the husband, pulling them aside, meeting with them individually and coaching them through this. "Look, it's gonna be rough. You don't try to manage your wife's feelings and emotions at all. Let her experience it. This is about revealing, building trust, and she gets to have her emotions just like you do. In this experience, allow her to be. In fact, encourage it." But that's, I think... Oh, that's a big one. Thank you for bringing that up.1:06:47 Anarie: And that is something I felt Lifestar did a really good job, of giving space for the betrayed partner to have their experience, for their trauma to be validated. And to expect that the addicted spouse needed to find support elsewhere, and that the betrayed person can't... You want to come together as a couple to address the issue together, but for a time maybe you can't do that. You need outside support, outside people. So...1:07:23 Daniel: Absolutely, so you now are divorced. It's been how long since the separation?1:07:27 Anarie: Four months since it was finalized, a year since we separated.1:07:29 Daniel: Four months. Alright. And do you feel like you're in a better place now?1:07:34 Anarie: I do, yeah.1:07:37 Daniel: Well, Anarie...1:07:39 Anarie: And I'm hopeful that he is as well, and that he will be.1:07:46 Daniel: Well, it sounds like you're making some important decisions to move forward, and that healing is occurring. And I can't tell you how much I personally appreciate you coming on here and sharing your information with everyone else. I can't tell you...1:08:00 Anarie: Well, I hope that it can be helpful. There was so much... Shame thrives in believing that you're the only one. And for so long I believed that I was the only one, or one of only a few. And particularly the sexless nature of my marriage didn't match a lot of what I heard about other...1:08:21 Daniel: No.1:08:22 Anarie: Addicted people. And I think that was part of what was so distressing too, it seemed to not fit. And since recovery I've found, no there are others who are experiencing this dynamic of being married to someone who's acting out sexually while having a sexless marriage and sexless relationship. And so, for a long time I was even nervous to tell other people in my recovery circle about what kind of sexless marriage I'd had because often I was in a minority. So, for that reason I wanna share my story because I know now that I'm not the only person experiencing that kind of dynamic.1:09:03 Daniel: It's so much more common then people realize.1:09:04 Anarie: And when you... When you feel like it's just you, when you feel shame for your shameful experience, it's just so much more painful. So I know now that I'm not the only one experiencing that, so I wanna share that so that others can know as well, that this is part of the experience too.1:09:24 Daniel: I could assure you, the people listening right now are comforted by that comment. You did mention one other thing, before we go. I can't remember if we were personally talking about it offline or if it was at the beginning. You said one of the concerns, or... And maybe you have addressed it in a round about way. But one of the concerns you had about this treatment process, just the whole process I guess, was, yes, you got solutions, you got treatment plans for the porn and sexual behaviors, but some of the underlining issues weren't addressed.1:10:02 Anarie: Yes.1:10:02 Daniel: Do you mind talking about that for a second?1:10:04 Anarie: Yeah. So, in terms of our relationship and what was actually going on in our relationship, I feel like the pornography was a symptom of other things that were going on. So in spending a couple of years honing in specifically on pornography, and the pornography use, and regulating and learning about that, it took a couple of years before we started actually looking at more of our relationship dynamics, that were actually more of our problem. And it's linked, so it's not like... Okay.1:10:50 Anarie: But in a way I feel like the focus on the pornography use was able to feed... We almost... It started to become a part of some of our underlying issues. We almost used it in old unhealthy ways. So, in terms of what the underlying issue was, there was some control and power manipulation, lying, unhealthy shame management, enmeshment, differentiation issues, sexual shame, repressed sexuality. Some of those things... We spent so much time on the regulating sobriety and porn behaviors that by the time we started actually getting to the real meat of stuff, it took a couple of years.1:11:48 Daniel: Which is absolutely a case I see quite frequently here. We may resolve the pornography, the addictive behaviors, but when that's gone what happens is exactly what you described. You're going to this, you're healing, but where's the connection? The absence of porn and undesired sexual behaviors does not create connection.1:12:16 Anarie: Yes, yes, yes. [chuckle]1:12:18 Daniel: Right?1:12:19 Anarie: Yeah. Yep.1:12:19 Daniel: And so, this is an element that is always... Again, I'm using always. Not always the case. Is too often overlooked, because we do, we make the symptom, which is the pornography, the problem. And we think if we get rid of the problem, which is actually just the symptom... There's clearly something else going on here with the constant manipulation. And unfortunately, the way... The addiction model, or pop psychology, whatever we wanna refer to it or blame it on, tells us that manipulation is a result from the escalating behavior. Well, we're finding that it's actually an underlying issue that's unresolved and not treated. And then the pornography, in a sense, becomes yet another form of manipulation to cover that real problem. It's this benign tumor that just is hidden somewhere we can't find it. Right?1:13:17 Anarie: Yes. And pornography addiction recovery can, in a sense, end up being used as a tool of manipulation.1:13:25 Daniel: Yes.1:13:25 Anarie: And, there was something I was gonna say. I can't remember.1:13:33 Daniel: Now, if it comes back to you feel free to jump in.1:13:36 Anarie: Sorry. [chuckle]1:13:36 Daniel: But I think that you hit... I think one of the biggest takeaways from this is not to neglect the... We focus too often on getting rid of something. I phrase it... You went to treatment at the beginning, no one talked about pornography, and then you went to Lifestar where pornography was finally talked about, but yet connection wasn't addressed. If there was some way that we can address both the undesired behavior and the desired behavior... And in my practice, I always say, "Let's focus on the desired outcome. What is the desired outcome? Okay, you're using pornography right now, the desired outcome isn't just to stop that.1:14:20 Daniel: The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer to you, I wanna feel connection. Okay, even if you saw some pornography today, I still wanna come home and have a meaningful discussion with you, I wanna have meaningful sex, I wanna feel close to you. If that means getting rid of the pornography, great. If it means we need to understand how to communicate better, let's do that too." And it sounds like that was an element that was missed, at least in your experience.1:14:52 Anarie: Yeah, and it was talked about, and I... Connection, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. That's a phrase that I heard a lot in recovery. So there was a lot of talk about connection.1:15:06 Daniel: Yeah, but we're discovering, it sounds like you did too... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth at all. Is the absence of the addiction doesn't re-result in connection.1:15:18 Anarie: Yes, yeah, yeah.1:15:19 Daniel: So we talk about it a lot, but we don't actually, I think, create a treatment plan around that and try to improve it.1:15:27 Anarie: Yeah. And I do wanna say that I am grateful that pornography... Because pornography was labelled as an issue, as a problematic thing, it gave a doorway into some therapy and some information that was incredibly helpful. So I am grateful that there was this issue and there are these programs that help, that were able to catch me and help me get directed into some real therapeutic help.1:16:00 Daniel: Absolutely. Well, you've given us so, so much to think about here. And I know it may sound redundant, but I'm gonna ask again, any final thoughts or things you wanna leave us with?1:16:13 Anarie: I do wanna share just some of the things beyond betrayal trauma that I needed to learn, and that were an important part of my recovery, and my process of learning how to be a healthy individual in a healthier relationship. Because there were definitely

Daniel and Andrew talk about different ways of relating to the ancestors. Especially getting into how to help the ancestors evolve and make our lives better in the process. They also get into their relatinoships to the orisha and ways of thinking about practicing a tradition that you were not born into.  Daniel can be found through his site here. His events are there too.  Daniel's talk on practicing other peopels traditions is here.  Andrew's upcoming Ancestral Magick Course can be found here.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription ANDREW: Welcome to the Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm hanging out today with Daniel Foor, and Daniel is a Ifá priest and has done all sorts of wonderful work along the lines of ancestral healing. And Ancestral Medicine is the name of the book that he has out. And he and I have a lot of similarities in practices and the kinds of things we're interested in, so, you know, lots of people have been suggesting I have him on for a while, and, and well, today's the day! So, welcome, Daniel! Thanks for being here!  DANIEL: Thanks so much. It's good to be here.  ANDREW: There are people who might not know who you are. Who are you? What are you about?  DANIEL: Yeah, well, I ... to locate myself a bit, I'm a 40-year-old, white, cis-gendered American living in western North Carolina. From Ohio, originally, but traveled a good amount, but live in the States, and have a PhD in psychology. I'm a licensed therapist, so I have a background in mental health.  But mostly I'm a ritualist, and I've been training with different kinds of teachers and traditions for over 20 years now, and started out with more shamanic pagan background with magical things, and migrated into involvement with Islam, and Sufism, Buddhist practice, and then circled back to involvement with indigenous systems and earth-honoring traditions. And in the last decade have been immersed in west African Ifá practice, lineages in the Americas and also in west Africa, and so I'm an initiate of Ifa, Obatala, and Oshun, and Egungun priesthood, [inaudible], and in the lineage of Oluwo Falolu Adesanya Awoyade, Ode Remo, in Ogun State. So I've been four times to Nigeria, and that's one influence on my practice.  But mostly I teach and guide non-dogmatic, inclusive, animist ancestor-focused ritual practice. The last two years or so I have shifted to training others, which has been really satisfying after years of doing more public-facing ritual, I'm now ... I do some of that but mostly I'm training other people in how to guide the work. And I have developed a specialization in repair work with blood lineage ancestors. But I also operate from a broader animist or earth-honoring framework that isn't limited to just that. So. And I'm a dad, I'm a, you know, married, and love the earth here, and live in the American South, which is kind of strange, but also okay. Yeah.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. That's awesome.  DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, my first question for you is, when did you start feeling the ancestral stuff calling you?  DANIEL: Well, my own lineages are German, English, Irish, early settler colonialist to North America, and so I didn't inherit any religious or spiritual framework or culture that was of value to me in any conscious way as a young person. And so, my first teachers in shamanic practice, Bekki and Crow with the Church of Earth Healing, in the late 90s, nudged me to get to know my ancestors ritually. And it was really impactful, actually. I was surprised by it. I'd never thought about them really before that. And I ended up assisting with an older ancestral guide or teacher, my father's father who had taken his own life, and just showing up for that work, which was powerful.  And it was a catalyst for me to research, do a lot of depth genealogy research about my own family history, and that dovetailed in with my training as a therapist, so I was in a period of connecting a lot of dots and valuing my own heritage, and, in a grounding way ... Not in like some awkward, go white people way, but in a way that helped me to reclaim what is beautiful about European, you know, northern western European cultures, and ... including earlier pre-Roman, pre-Christian magics and lineages. And so, I ran with that ritually. And have guided 120 maybe, multi-day, ancestor healing intensives since 2005 in that work, so I spent about six or seven years getting grounded with all of it myself. Then started to help other people with it. And it just organically developed as a specialization. And I tend to be a little obsessive about a thing, when I'm into it. I'll do that like crazy, until it's ... yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think ... I mean, I think it's interesting how ... Cause I do a lot of ancestral work as well, you know ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I do ancestral divination work and, you know, ancestral sort of healing and lineage healing and so on.  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, I've been teaching it with my friend Carrie, we have this, we developed this system of people working with charm casting as a tool ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: To get into that work. And, you know, we've been traveling around and teaching it everywhere. We were in China last year teaching it, and stuff like that, with people ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: You know, I think that the thing that sort of stands out in your story, that I think stands out everywhere, is so often, like the last little bit, you know, the last few generations, it's kind of wonky, or like there's not a lot, there's not a lot of connection or living connection. Even, you know, it wasn't until last year that I found out that my grandmother read tea leaves when she was alive ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And she's been gone for like 12 years, and it just never came up before. She never talked about it, and my mom just never brought it up. Not for any particular reason but it just, it just was never a thing. Even though that's the same grandmother who bought me a tarot deck when I was like 13, long ago.  DANIEL: Right. Of course she did.  ANDREW: But I would have talked about it, right? But how ... Often when you kind of go back, you know, a few generations or somewhere a bit deeper, you know, there are these sort of more ... evolved isn't the word that I super like, but you know, like, more grounded, more helpful, you know, ancestors with a, with a sort of more capacity to be really guides and assist you in this process, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, often. It ... Where those cut-offs happen varies so widely from one demographic or even one individual to another, and I know in a lot of my own lineages, it's been over 1,000 years since anyone during life had a culturally reinforced and supported framework for honoring the ancestors. And so the older ones, the ones even before that, are quite available. So it's not ... I mean I could ... reinforce some kind of orphan victim culturally-damaged white person narrative, but it's not that sexy or useful, and so at a certain point, you're just like, well, you pick up the pieces where they're at, and get the fire going again.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And the older ancestors are happy to do that. And so even if someone comes from a really recently and before that culturally fragmented set of lineages, the ancestors are still available, the older ones, and the main repair orientation or practice that I encourage people to try on at first is to partner with those older ancestors and with them, assist any of the dead who are not yet well, any of the ones between those older ones and the present, who are not yet really well-seated, really vibrant. Help them to become well-seated ancestors. So the dead change. It's very important for us living folks to not fix them in some static condition.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Just cause people were a pain in the ass or really, you know, culturally in the weeds during life doesn't mean they're doomed to that condition forever. They can really change and become, not only, like, not ghosty, but they can become dynamic, engaged, useful allies for cultural healing work in the present.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So. ANDREW: Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's a misconception that a lot of people have that they automatically change on crossing over. DANIEL: Oh, sure, yeah, that's different. (laughing) ANDREW: And then the other side of that is, you know, they can change, but it might take a bunch of work, even if they did change, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, totally. Yeah, both, both are true. Yeah. The idea that just dying makes you wise and loving and kind is really hazardous actually, as a world view. So. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Cause it'll lead to a view of ... I've seen it at times in pagan circles as well, where it's “Oh, the ancestors, ancestors are good, let's invoke them all. Okay, here are all the names of my ancestors, and the pictures, and let me light a candle and strongly invoke all of them.” ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Well, I hope your invocation doesn't work. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Because if it does, you're going to get a mixed bag! Cause your people are, you know, if they're well, awesome, but if they're not yet well, and your invocation works, then what you have is some not yet well ghosty energy in your space.  ANDREW: For sure, right? And some of those spirits can be pretty tumultuous, you know, if they're ... DANIEL: Oh, no doubt. Yeah. ANDREW: [crosstalking 09:53] here. I have one grandfather that I continue to work with who, sort of, work on, let's put it [laughing].  DANIEL: Right.  ANDREW: It's been a long time and they're still not ready to be, you know, front and center in anything, cause they just, so caught up in so much deep, deep trauma in their own life and in their generations before them, and, you know. DANIEL: One of, one of the things that I don't, I won't say it's unique to how I approach it, but it's emphasized in how I approach ancestor work, which isn't across the board, is I take a very lineage-based approach. Like I don't even really encourage, necessarily, relating with individual ancestors that much. ANDREW: Hmm. DANIEL: So in the case of someone, not to speak to your specific case necessarily, but let's say someone's grandmother is really quite entrenched in the unwell ghosty range of wellness. My strategy is to make sure that her mother and her mother and her mother and her mother and the lineage of women before them on back through time to the ancient weird witchy deity-like grandmothers, that that whole lineage is deeply well, and the repair happens from the older ones toward the present. And so, once you have the parent of the one who is quite troubled in a deeply well condition, and the whole lineage before them deeply well, as a group energy, asking them to intervene to address the rowdy ghosty grandparent tends to be ... It can ... Well, it can be more effective, simply because there's a re-anchoring of the rogue individuality in a bigger system, in a collective energy.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And there's a respect for seniority or hierarchy, by having that person's elders be the ones to round them up. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So, so that's. I shared that because in the West, generally, I find that people tend to conceive of ancestor reverence primarily as a relating of one individual to another individual, and, and some of the lineage or group level aspects of it can get lost, or they're not as emphasized. And so I find that's an important nuance to include, and then another is, and we've spoken to it, is just the way in which one's ancestors are not at all just the remembered dead, the ones, the recent ones, but they include ... The vast majority of them are living before remembered names. And that's helpful for people who are like, my family are abusive trolls. I'm like, okay, I believe you, but I think what you mean to say is all the generations you know about, which is probably not more than two or three. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so, it's like, you're at the ocean, at a windy, cloudy day, and you're saying, “Oh, the ocean is tumultuous,” well, I believe it is, right there at the beach. But the ocean's a big place, yeah. So expanding our frame for who we mean when we say ancestor is gonna be helpful too. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah, and there's lots of times when, you know, we'll make offerings or do work with all of those ancestors, right? With the Egun, right, with everybody? Right? DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: You know? And in those ways and so on, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting how ... It'd really be interesting to make sure that you're looking at those things. And some of my, some of my best ancestral allies have been gone, you know, three, four hundred years, right?  DANIEL: For sure. ANDREW: Or longer.  DANIEL: Yeah, totally, yeah. ANDREW: They arrive, and they're just like, “Yes! You're the beacon of light amongst all of these things, and let's radiate that out to everybody afterwards and anchor further and deeper,” right?  DANIEL: Yeah. For sure. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, when you're doing work with people, are you mostly focused on ... you know, because a lot of people come to ancestor work because they want to get messages and receive stuff and do ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: ...[inaudible at 13:59] kind of stuff, right? I mean, I think that that can be fruitful, too, I enjoy that kind of work as well, but that's not really what we're talking about here either, right? I mean not explicitly, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. If we say like, what's the point? It can ... There are a lot of different motivations that can drive someone to want to engage their ancestors. The most common one is, “I'm suffering, will this help?”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That's legit. Sometimes it will help indirectly. Sometimes it will help directly because the source of the suffering is unmetabolized intergenerational trouble that's directly connected to ancestral interference, and so sometimes it, you know, it can help in different ways.  Another motivator for the work is seeking life guidance, cause the ancestors have insight into our unique destiny, and can help us to move into closer alignment with that, you know, our unique instructions or soul level work in the world.  As you know, in Yoruba culture, we sometimes talk about the world as the marketplace and Orun or the spirit world as home, and, and so if you forget your shopping list, working with the ancestors can be like, “Let us show you, you said this, this, this, and this,” and be like, “Oh, yeah, okay, thanks,” and so that's helpful to not waste our lives.  And ancestors can be great for being a resource to parents or supporters in family, like they're especially good with all the family sphere, the domestic sphere, like being a responsible family human. And they're also good allies for cultural healing. A lot of the racism and colonialism and sexism and other kinds of cultural toxicity and garbage and bad capitalism that we're stewed in and trying to get out from underneath and help transform ... Those are ancestor, those are troubles created by the ancestors. Like, they're implicated in the trouble. And so they have, appropriately, a hand in resolving the trouble as well.  And so they're great allies, by whatever form, activism, cultural change, all that. And so I really think that working closely with one's ancestors helps cultural change-makers to up their game, so to speak. So that's another motivation.  And this is, I guess it's related to the one about destiny, but, inspired a bit from the Yoruba frameworks. The collective energy or wisdom of the ancestors is associated strongly with the Earth. Like the onile, the earth is like the calabash that holds the souls of the dead. And because the Earth is associated with accountability and, you know, moral authority, and is the witness through of all interactions, in that way also the ancestors carry that same quality of accountability. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And I think whether or not people can consciously own it, some part of us craves accountability. Like we want to be seen and checked when needed. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: There's something really like ... our daughter almost made it to the top of the steps. Like, the door was open the other day. She's nine months old. But we caught her. It was good. It was way better than had we not held her in that moment.  ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And there's a way in which that kind of love and connectivity is like, “Oh, I'm not alone in the universe.”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: If I crawl to the top of the steps, someone will pick me up. So we want that, and the ancestors bring that, as well, when we live with them.  ANDREW: I think it's a, I think it's a thing that, especially, you know, in my experience, people, in Western culture, struggle with too, right? This sort of willingness to acknowledge an authority or an awareness or a position that's sort of above them in a way that they can allow in to say, “You know what, actually, we do know what's better for you in this moment.”  DANIEL: [laughing] Oh, yeah, it's- ANDREW: You what, my friends, you know, going down that road has nothing to do with your destiny, or what have you, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah! [laughing] ANDREW: Here's your fault in this mess that you're trying to put on this other person, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah, no, people, look, I'm a teacher, also, and so often it's great and fine, and sometimes people are idealizing in awkward ways, and like, oh, don't do that, don't do that. But, but just whatever, fine, it's fine, it tends to burn out and even out. And also sometimes people are really just not okay with anything resembling a power differential or a student teacher relationship.  ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And it's ... It's tiring a little, as a teacher. Because there is a difference between telling someone just what to do in an authoritative way, and also saying, like, “Well, do you want to learn a thing? Because I know this skill. Like, what do you ... do you want to tell me how it goes, cause ... ?” So, so yeah, it is ... I think it's a function of power so often being abused, that people understandably have mistrust.  ANDREW: Yup!  DANIEL: Yeah. So I have compassion for it, and also the piece around hierarchy and authority is really, is challenging. In the coming months, some dear friends are going to Nigeria to do initiations and I was talking to them last night, and I was like, in the nicest possible way, “Really, your main job as the initiate is to obey.” ANDREW: Yes. DANIEL: Just to, like, the ritual is done to you, nobody really cares what you think about it. And it's totally fine.  ANDREW: Stand here, stand there, [crosstalking 19:59]. DANIEL: Right! Yeah, totally, sit down, drink it, sit, eat it, say thank you. Like ... ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah. Like you're the thing being consecrated. Your input is not needed.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Nothing personal. Next time you go back, then you can have an opinion.  ANDREW: Yeah. And even then-- DANIEL: And even then, so you get one small vote. [laughing] Yeah.  ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah, let's see what people who ... I mean come for readings of all kinds, but you know, people who approach, you know, getting dillogun readings and stuff like that, and you know, the Orishas come through, and they're like, “Oh, you know what? Don't drink this year, don't, you know, whatever. Don't get tattooed. Don't, you know, no, no red beans for you.” They're like, “Well, what do you mean? I don't understand.” It's like, “Well...” [crosstalking 20:52] DANIEL: Obey! [laughing] ANDREW: What is the understanding? I mean, in a lot of that situation ... in some of those situations, the understanding is more obvious, right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: I had a conversation with a person who'd say, “Well, it seems like you kind of have this kind of challenge, and this is kind of the thing that might counter that,” and they're like, “Okay, yeah, maybe.” But other times it's just energetic or on other levels that it's just like, you know, it's kind of the ... It's an equivalent of saying “Hey, carry this citrine with you for the next year, it's going to help your energy,” but it's in a different structure that people don't relate to in the same way, right?  DANIEL: For sure, yeah.  ANDREW: And then they're like, “But, but, I don't want to be told what to do!” I'm like, “What else are you gonna do?” DANIEL: You just paid me to do that.  ANDREW: Yeah, you asked, right?  DANIEL: [laughing] ANDREW: You didn't have to, I wouldn't worry about it ... DANIEL: But some part of us does, some part of us really, I think wants to be told what to do. And that could go awry, and I'm not saying it's an entirely healthy impulse, but there's something about accountability and structure and community and limits, that's actually really intimate. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And if you can't hear and accept “no,” your “yes” is meaningless.  ANDREW: Mm. DANIEL: And so there's something that's precious and sweet about protocol and tradition and about structure.  ANDREW: I also think that a lot of people don't really ... Faith is a really complicated and difficult thing for a lot of people too, you know?  DANIEL: Mm.  ANDREW: And especially when entering a new tradition, you know? And, and I think that part of what we're talking about here is also a matter of faith, right? What is your faith in the ancestors or the Orisha or whatever, and how, how do you sustain that faith through being deeply challenged by all that stuff?  DANIEL: Yeah, and for me, look, I was involved with different Orisha teachers in the States, American, for the most part, and ... it didn't work out that well, for the most part. I mean, complicated. But I ... I felt like there was a lot of restrictive and unhealthy and kind of confused energy around it. And I had an opportunity to go to Nigeria to reset some of the initiation-like things that had happened here, so I took a risk on it, and I'm like, “Well, this is either gonna be like the final straw, or some breakthrough,” like, “let's pray for the latter.” And I saw kind of a non-dogmatic group community like, in my Ifá initiation, there were men aged like 80 to five, holding space. Like, and 20, 30 people there. And people were teasing each other, playing, and having a good time. Like the people were well human beings, they seemed happy. And so that relaxed, teasing heart aware energy. I'm like, “Oh, good, this is what I was looking for.” And it helped ... For me, it helped me to trust, and just not fight the system. I'm like, “Just tell me what to do.” Just okay, “eat the pig dung,” okay, “Leave me a bite,” or whatever. Whatever it is. Just tell me what to do. So.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah, it's great.  ANDREW: I used to, you know, get some people who would bring their, you know, like, elderly, Cuban elders to the store. You know? And pick up stuff. DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, they're here in Toronto to do a thing, and they'd bring this person to the store, right? And you know my Spanish is not great [laughing] and their English was not great, and we'd like, know some like, Yoruban words in common or whatever. And you would see how sweet and genuine and nice they were. And then they'd notice that like, you know, I've got plants growing at the front of the store for working with religion, and they'd be like, “oh, alamo,” I'd be like, “yeah, yeah,” and we'd have this like sort of pidgin conversation and a bunch of other things, and mostly what it would be is our hearts being opened, all this sharing of our love of this religion and these spirits ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And the continuity of that. And it was such a beautiful and uplifting experience, even though there wasn't a lot of words that were associated with it. There was just so much communication happening at other levels, and you could, you know, I could feel my Shango just being happy about it, you know, be like whoever there, too, just being happy about it, and so on. You know? It's so uplifting in that way, right? But ... DANIEL: That's good. It's one of the things in, you know, we had mentioned in our previous chat about my talk on practicing the traditions of other people's ancestors. And-- ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: I respect it a lot about the necessary and important dialogues around cultural appropriation, and especially, not only, but especially around respecting different Native North American or First Nations, as you say, traditions, and being mindful of what the conditions of involvement, if that's open, to non-Native people are, etc., and what's important to understand is those same parameters are not universal, and how cultures are shared and understood from one part of the world to another really vary.  And Yoruba culture, for example, is generally an open system. Yoruba people in my experience, in Yorubaland, have never had anyone feel off about me being there and training in Orisha, except for the Christians, who were like, “Why don't you want Jesu?” I'm like, “We have Jesu where I'm at,” it's like, “It's fine, like, go Jesu!” but it's not why I'm here. And one of the things that is important though, is, it's family, like you're stepping into a family, a spiritual family. It's not like a “Hey bro, thanks for the culture, now I'm gonna go back and set up shop, I got what I need.” There's a ... And so when your teachers hit you up for money, it's family. That's what like, you can't be part of a family and have a bunch of stuff, and then other people don't have something, and you don't share it.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so it's ... It's not like you're getting exploited. I mean, that also happens. But just the ethic of sharing and supporting one another. If people don't want that, then they might not want to get involved. because most indigenous systems that I know of that are open to people not of that blood ancestry hold things in a family-oriented way. There's intimacy with that, but there's also connectivity, reciprocity, accountability. Yeah.  ANDREW: And, you know, so, you know, my immediate family where I was initiated lives in the Detroit area, and my, you know, my elders are in Miami, you know, and like, but like, especially when the Detroit folks are doing work, you know, especially bigger things like making priests, you know, I always show up, like, you know, it's like you, when they're doing the work, and you're like, “Oh, it's so inconvenient for me to take four or five days off and go down there and help out, right?” And it's like, yeah, it's inconvenient, and you know, it's time off work, and it's whatever, but it's what those people did for me, right? And it's what allows all of that to continue, and it's a chance to, you know, to also sustain those connections, and you know, sing together, and sit and joke together, and, you know, complain about handling the ... cleaning up after the animals together, and whatever, it's just part of it, right? Like ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And in the absence of being willing to engage that community element of it, right? It's pretty ... If you don't have the community element in one way or another, especially in the Orisha tradition, you don't really have much of anything, you know?  DANIEL: It's true, with the tradition, it in my experience is very communal, and there are a lot of ritual domains of activity you just can't pull off solo.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: And it's just that, you know, it's a lot of hard work, it's heavy lifting. And for people who have worked with psychoactives, there's a certain kind of feeling among the group after a long, successful, like all night acid trip, when the sun's coming up, you're sort of like, “Oh, we've just gone through something together.”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And, and, minus the LSD, there can be a sense after a multi-day ritual of a strong sense of magic and beauty and intimacy that's shared through all the effort and all the devotion ...  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That it takes to keep old lineages of practice alive.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: For sure. And I think it's, I mean, one of the other points that I think was super important ... It's been a while since I listened to that talk and we'll link to it in the show notes, cause it was a good talk. Folks should go back and listen to it. You know, is also the fact that these are living traditions, right? They have continuity. DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, but there's a big difference between, hey, we're gonna call up some Greek deities and see what happens, you know, and, like, or you know, see what happens sounds dismissive, I don't mean it in that way. And you know, there's nobody, there's no continuity to ancient Greece, in that particular way, versus there are people who've been practicing these traditions from person to person to person, all the way through until now, and you can actually go and ask those people and they can answer you as to what's done and how it's done and why it's done. DANIEL: Yeah. No, it's true. People don't ... If they don't know something, would be in the habit of divining on it, but I wouldn't want someone to, like, not go to flight school and then divine on how to fly the plane. [crosstalking] Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah. There's that great proverb, which I'm sure you know, which is “Don't ask what you already know,” right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And I think that there's a sort of choleric glory to that which is, you know, there are things you just shouldn't ask, cause you should already know them, right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: You don't need to ask if we do this thing because we know we don't. You know? DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: We know that Oshun won't take this as an offering. We know that we don't do this kind of thing. We know that, like, you know, you don't ask if you could rob a bank cause the answer's already no. You know? DANIEL: Right. And there's a beautiful essay [inaudible 31:07] by Ologo Magiev [31:09], a child being asked to divine, and their parents died young and so they didn't get the information. And so they invoke their ancestors, and bring a lot of humility, and wing it, and it turns out fine. And, and I think there's also this kind of an implicit message, “And don't do that again. Don't pull that card too many times.”  ANDREW: Right?  DANIEL: [laughing] Then go train! ANDREW: For sure, right?  DANIEL: So, it's both. The deities have kindness, and benevolence, and also, careful! ANDREW: Yeah. And, you know, I was traveling, and I got a call that a friend of mine was like at death's door in the hospital, basically, right? And, you know, and I was just literally at a rest stop getting, gassing up the car when I checked my phone in the middle of New York State, right?  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I was just like, all right. And so I went and, you know, kind of looked around for some stuff, and it's like, there's nothing, like I can't, there's nothing I could really sort of put together here, so I just collected a bunch of white flowers and, you know, it's really hilly, right, so I just took them to a spot that I thought was appropriate for Obatala ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: And I was like, Obatala, this is all I have today. I'm here, it's this situation, and I need you to accept these and intercede in the situation. And you can get away with that. But that's not practicing the tradition. And that's not gonna, as you say, it's not gonna fly all the time, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: When you're at home, you can do all sorts of other things, you have your shrines or your ancestors or wherever you're working with, right? They will accept these things, cause they do understand circumstance and they're not tyrannical about it, right? They just say, you don't want that to be your way of practicing forever.  DANIEL: I spent years like, I don't know, not quite 20 years, not involved in a really dedicated way in one set tradition. I was training with different traditions for a period of time, and would definitely learn stuff, and would develop my own ashe [33:20] or whatever, but I wasn't like embracing one fully, as an operating system. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: But I learned that it's possible to do it that way. That was actually really helpful to me. That it's possible to go deep with one's own ancestors, to go deep with the spirits of the land, where you're at. ANDREW: Sure. DANIEL: And to get to know them, and to get clarity about your own destiny and to just constellate in the different powers and forces and spirits that are gonna help you to do that. And I also ... that there's loneliness in going it solo, as well. There's like a freedom and a loneliness, both. And it drove me eventually to ... You know, I spent almost ten years involved in Orisha practice and Yoruba ways before I decided to initiate. And it's like a long slow dating process. It wasn't a lot of charisma. It was like, oh, you're the last one left standing, and ... ANDREW: [laughing] DANIEL: We have a ton of compatibility, why are we not doing this? And I go, okay, I guess we're gonna do this. So we just had the high match on the dating, you know, religious dating profile website. So I'm like, oh, maybe we should try this. And, and I haven't regretted it at all. It's very ... It's been a relief. The sense for me is of being held in a bigger frame. And it's not really ... It's not what I teach publicly, I'm not publicly offering services in that way, even though there are certain ones I could, in integrity.  I'm still in training, I'm still trying to learn Yoruba language, and especially with a west African orientation of practice it's such an aural language-based tradition, especially Ifá practice in particular, so I'm trying to hold a ... I think if you're not ancestrally of a tradition, the standards are even a bit higher for you to get it right, which I think is fair and understandable. Especially with the cultural climate of racism in the west and all that, for European ancestor people to be doing west African Ifa, you need to not look like a fool doing it, and so part of that looks like studying the language and really, you know, taking to heart the training.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: But, it's possible to go really deep without stepping into a tradition. And there are a lot of ritual advantages to having a system to work from, as well. So I appreciate both sides of that. Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I think you can get there ... I think you can accomplish the same ends either way, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: I think that where it gets, where it gets touchy is where you're solely working independently, but within the set of spirits that has a living tradition. If you're only working independently and devoid of traditional teaching, you know, that's where it starts to become a question for me of what ... DANIEL: Well, yeah, no, if the main powers you're working with are the Orisha, it's like, well, you've got to, here's the front door. You can try crawling in the window, but it's going to go badly, so.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah. But if you're just working with the weird old land gods and your own ancestors, you can get away with it. yeah.  ANDREW: For sure.  DANIEL: Yeah, for sure.  ANDREW: Yeah. I also like the weird old land gods. You know? There's this beautiful ravine, you know, about a two-minute walk from the shop, [crosstalking 36:45] in Toronto. It runs through and you know, under there, there's sort of part of a buried river, that was once upon a time up on the surface, and all sorts of stuff, and there's wonderful and magical energies that are there, and really fascinating things have happened in that space over time. You know? Like I was ... I was there making a ... dealing with something and helping somebody, and making an offering essentially to the spirit of that place in the snow, right? And then when I came out of sort of the wood part back onto the path, all of these moths emerged, these white moths. And I'm like, there's snow on the ground, and it's snowing right now, what is going on with these things? And I'm like, all right, I'll take it. Big old yes from the spirits of this place on that thing, you know?  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So I mean yeah, there's some amazing stuff that can happen in those ways, for sure.  DANIEL: Nice. Yeah.  ANDREW: So, I mean, first thing is, I'm going to ask you now if people should, if they're listening to this, and they want to think about starting a, you know, where they should start? And I know that one of the answers is definitely, they should go read your book, cause your book is great. DANIEL: Sure. ANDREW: But like, for the context of our conversation today, where would you kind of point people? Where, where do you point people [inaudible 38:02]? DANIEL: I'm not a very trusting person, really. So, if I were to listen to this conversation, and I didn't know that I'm a good person, I would go to my website, which is ancestralmedicine.org. Root around there, see what the vibe is, and there are other talks, or whatever, and see if you, you know, get an instinctual, this guy's not crazy vibe from where I'm coming from, and if you're drawn to the ancestral work, there are three main ways to engage.  One is to connect with one of the practitioners in the directory there. And there are 30 some people at this point who are trained in the work. Men, women, all different genders of people [38:43--not sure I've got his exact words here], ancestrally diverse people, lots of different opportunities for low income sessions, sessions in seven languages, so, opportunities to connect with people directly for session work. That's the most efficient way. Another is that I offer an online course that starts in December, that's thorough, and it maps along the heart of the book, chapters 5 through 9, which is lineage repair work, and there's a lot of support throughout that course, so that's an option, and I'll also be offering a course through the Shift network in the fall.  And then, a third way is the in-person trainings. And the last one I'm going to guide probably in North America will be in just over a week in Ottawa, the 24th to the 26th, and there's a talk on August 22, next Wednesday, in Ottawa as well, and all the info on that is on my site, and additionally, to that, there are trainings in maybe ten cities and also coming up in Australia and Mexico and maybe Russia and Canada and Victoria, so. And those are done by students who I trust to guide the work. So in person work, online course, or sessions, are, in addition to the book, the three main ways to plug in. Yeah.  ANDREW: Perfect.  DANIEL: And, and, you know, like just to say it, if you're wary of people, which is warranted, this approach to the work doesn't involve the practitioners or me or anybody saying, “Hey, this is what your grandmother says to you.” It's about stepping the individual through a process of reclaiming and re-energizing their ability to connect directly with their own people. So, it's an empowering approach in that way. It's not somebody getting all up in the mix and channeling messages to your people. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just not this approach, so. And especially if your family's a mess, it's useful to do ancestor work. Cause you get some space from all that, and connect with what's beautiful and trustworthy in your own blood and bone lineages. So that's grounding, it's helpful, also for the cultural healing that's needed.  ANDREW: Yes. Well and I think it can be quite liberating, you know, because we're carrying those patterns, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah. So you can relate consciously or unconsciously with your people, but you don't get to opt out of relatedness. Yeah. ANDREW: Exactly, right? And if we can tidy those up and take some of that burden off of us or free ourselves from that, right? Then we get to show up much differently in that way, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. I think the masquerades in Yoruba culture, Egungun, and it's a blessing when they come around, but it's also a lot of people try not to be touched by them. And so there's ... It conveys something about the ancestors, like, they're dangerous to avoid and they're dangerous to have around. ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: But, whatever, it's just like living humans. [laughing] ANDREW: For sure. People are challenged on both sides of the veil, right?  DANIEL: [laughing] Yeah, exactly.  ANDREW: For sure.  DANIEL: So, good.  ANDREW: Well, thank you so much for making time today, Daniel. It's been great to hang out and chat with you.  DANIEL: For sure, thanks, Andrew, thanks for your service, here. Blessings on everything you're up to. ANDREW: Thank you. DANIEL: Yeah. Good.   

(Audio in Dinka) South Sudanese former Chief Justice Ambrose Riing Thiik is the leader of the controversial Jiɛ̈ŋ Council of Elders. When the South Sudanese war started, the Jiɛ̈ŋ Council of Elders was accused of fueling the war. SBS Dinka stringer Daniel Atem interview Ambrose Riing for the first time about the JCE. This interview was first published on 08 Feb 2015. - Daniel: You as Jieng Council Elders met President Kiir because he qualifies to be a member of the council due to his background, what did you told him about the future of this country? Justice Riiny: Well; we supported the President right from day one when he advocated peaceful resolution of the conflict. You will recall as early as Dec 2013; submits were held and he advocated for peaceful resolutions. He has been moving in the last one year and there is nowhere he has not gone to advocating for peace. Peace would have comes long time ago if that was up to President Kiir without Riek demands. There are two reasons that prevented peace. Sometimes I blame the President for decisions that he had made in good faith he allowed the Nuer militia that came from the North. He integrates them to the army so much, so that that allows the Nuer present in the army overwhelming to 65%, 70 percent. This is what went into the mind of Riek that he can overrun Juba within two hours.  

Nasir and Matt welcome security guru Daniel Libby to discuss the issues involved with the secrecy of whistleblower apps, and answer the question, "We had an issue with some customer info that was compromised. Should we tell our customers, and if so, how?" Full Podcast Transcript NASIR: Welcome to Legally Sound Smart Business. This is Nasir Pasha. MATT: And this is Matt Staub. NASIR: And welcome to our podcast where we cover business in the news and add our legal twist and also answer some of your business legal questions at ask@legallysoundsmartbusiness.com. That was a pretty good intro. MATT: Yeah. NASIR: That was nice and clean. MATT: Yeah, not too bad. NASIR: If I may say so myself. MATT: Yeah, it was good until you brought up the fact that it was nice and clean and good. NASIR: I know. I can’t not comment on the intro. It sticks with me. MATT: That’s fine. NASIR: So, what do we have up today? MATT: Well, this is a pretty interesting story. I was unaware of this before coming across this story but there’s a few apps out there – and the ones they mention are Whisper and Secret so you can probably figure out what these are – but it’s a way to communicate anonymously. I’ve checked them out and I still don’t fully understand the purpose of them but it’s basically a way to say what you have to say and do it was anonymity. The only problem is, you know, these apps have their own privacy policies in place. It basically allows them to take the information that’s communicated over these apps and give them to necessary people. It says, you know, law enforcement, subpoena for a civil lawsuit, or simply any accusation of wrongdoing on the service. NASIR: That’s general. MATT: Yeah, we touched on this last week with the Snapchat thing with information not disappearing. It’s another app that defeats its own purpose. NASIR: Except Snapchat was violating their policy, right? MATT: Yeah. NASIR: It was a little bit different with them. They actually had a privacy policy that protected it. This is like the complete opposite. But, you’re right, I don’t really get the point of it all either. But I thought we would bring Daniel Libby from Digital Forensics on. He’s what I call an IT technology security guru who also does some digital forensics. Daniel, welcome to the program. DANIEL: Good morning, gentlemen! I appreciate it very much. Thank you. NASIR: Absolutely. I’m curious whether you’ve even heard about these apps or not. I just wonder, the fact that you may have employees that are using this to whistleblow or to share company secrets is a little scary. I don’t know. DANIEL: It really is and I think it’s a group of folks that are building some apps that basically take advantage of a current trend as so many do. I was surprised by the amount of venture capital that was put into an app like this because there are several others that do basically the same thing. I would like to comment just real quick on your issue of Snapchat. The funny thing in the computer forensics world is we knew that Snapchat didn’t delete those photos and everything else right from the outset. It took the rest of the country maybe 18 or 24 months to figure it out, but we knew it right from the outset – that it didn’t do what it reported to do. MATT: That’s good. NASIR: Well, I think you can speak very well to even things that are deleted aren’t exactly deleted, right? DANIEL: You can take it exactly out of that, depending on the operating system. Apple does a better job – and I don’t know how much time I have but a really quick way that I explain it to a jury is you walk into a library and a file system on a Windows computer is basically a library. It gives you an address on where the book is on a shelf. You can go there, check out the book, not a problem. If you don’t want someone else to have the book, all you do is remove that reference from the card catalog. Now, the book is still on the shelf but no one else knows it’s there.

Daniel Pink: To Sell is Human Daniel Pink is the author of several bestselling books on the changing world of work. He recently released his newest book, To Sell Is Human, which is also now a bestseller. In this episode, Daniel joins me to speak about his new book, to tell us what's changed about sales, and to explain why we're all in sales now...even leaders. Here are the questions I asked of Daniel: You make a strong case in the book is that sales has changed. What's changed? Most people I know assume that the best salespeople are extroverts. The research you've cited in your book says no. Why not? The use of sales scripts has been rampant in developing salespeople. You call sales scripts into question a bit in this book - so what can leaders and organizations do differently to develop their sales teams? You use the term "non-sales selling" to describe what a majority of us do in our work almost every day. One area your highlight is email subject lines. Why is the subject line so important and how does in matter in moving people? Community member question from Josh: What are some ways to dispel the stereotypical salesperson view so you can move onto effective selling and marketing? Community member question from Eveliina: What are the most important characteristics of a leader? Community member question from Jackie: From Peter Drucker....what do you want to be remembered for? What's a discovery you've made about yourself along the way that's contributed to your success? A bit more about Daniel's book: Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.

Daniel Pink: To Sell is Human Daniel Pink is the author of several bestselling books on the changing world of work. He recently released his newest book, To Sell Is Human, which is also now a bestseller. In this episode, Daniel joins me to speak about his new book, to tell us what's changed about sales, and to explain why we're all in sales now...even leaders. Here are the questions I asked of Daniel: You make a strong case in the book is that sales has changed. What's changed? Most people I know assume that the best salespeople are extroverts. The research you've cited in your book says no. Why not? The use of sales scripts has been rampant in developing salespeople. You call sales scripts into question a bit in this book - so what can leaders and organizations do differently to develop their sales teams? You use the term "non-sales selling" to describe what a majority of us do in our work almost every day. One area your highlight is email subject lines. Why is the subject line so important and how does in matter in moving people? Community member question from Josh: What are some ways to dispel the stereotypical salesperson view so you can move onto effective selling and marketing? Community member question from Eveliina: What are the most important characteristics of a leader? Community member question from Jackie: From Peter Drucker....what do you want to be remembered for? What's a discovery you've made about yourself along the way that's contributed to your success? A bit more about Daniel's book: Discover More Activate your free membership for full access to the entire library of interviews since 2011, searchable by topic.