Podcasts about daniel so

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (12) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 4:9-22 (2025-05-16) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (11) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 4:1-8 (2025-05-15) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (10) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 3:14-17 (2025-05-14) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (9) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 2:22-26 (2025-05-13) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (8) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 2:20-21 (2025-05-09) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (7) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 2:14-19 (2025-05-08) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (56) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 2:6 (2025-05-07) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (5) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 2:5 (2025-05-06) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (4) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 2:3-4 (2025-05-02) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (3) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 2:1-2 (2025-05-01) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (2) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 1:8-18 (2025-04-30) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Timothy (1) Daniel So / 2 Timothy 1:1-7 (2025-04-29) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (8) Daniel So / 1 Timothy Chapter 6 (2025-04-11) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (7) Daniel So / 1 Timothy Chapter 5 (2025-04-10) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (6) Daniel So / 1 Timothy Chapter 4 (2025-04-09) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (5) Daniel So / 1 Timothy Chapter 3 (2025-04-08) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (4) Daniel So / 1 Timothy Chapter 2 (2025-04-04) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (3) Daniel So / 1 Timothy 1:12-20 (2025-04-03) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (2) Daniel So / 1 Timothy 1:3-11 (2025-04-02) by One Hope Church

KC [Morning By Morning] 1 Timothy (1) Daniel So / 1 Timothy 1:1-2 (2025-04-01) by One Hope Church

Der Uhrenstammtisch - Wir sprechen über aktuelle Themen die die Uhrenbranche bewegen. MIt tollen Gästen im Wechsel. TIPP: 26.10. | 13 Uhr | WatchTime | Stand Chronorestore | Die Kaffeepause live mit Leon und Daniel _____________________________________ So kommst du mit Zeitzone in Kontakt und hast alle wichtigen Informationen entspannt zur Verfügung: Website:⁠⁠ ⁠https://zeitzone-podcast.de/⁠⁠⁠ E-Mail: ⁠⁠kontakt@zeitzone-podcast.de⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/zeitzone_podcast/⁠⁠⁠ Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/Zeitzonepodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ WhatsApp-Kanal: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029Va9KWN042DcgbtPHrW2X⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Telegram-Gruppe: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://t.me/+pxv5hrIRuDczOGVi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ So findest du den Weg zu den Zeitzone-Partnern:** Alexander Shorokhoff:⁠⁠ ⁠https://alexander-shorokhoff.de/⁠⁠⁠ Hanhart: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.hanhart.com/⁠⁠⁠ Chronorestore: ⁠⁠⁠https://chronorestore.com/⁠⁠⁠ Vandaag: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.vandaag.de/⁠⁠⁠ *Durch Markennennung etc. kann die Folge zusätzlich unbezahlte Werbung enthalten. **Enthält seitens meiner aufgeführten Partner bezahlte Werbung in Form eines Sponsorings. Durch die Verwendung der hier angegebenen Links zu meinen Partnern, erhalte ich KEINE Vergütung! Impressum: ⁠https://zeitzone-podcast.de/impressum/⁠

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Peter (6) Daniel So / 2 Peter 3:1-18 (2024-08-09) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Peter (5) Daniel So / 2 Peter 2:1-22 (2024-08-08) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Peter (4) Daniel So / 2 Peter 1:16-21 (2024-08-07) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Peter (3) Daniel So / 2 Peter 1:12-15 (2024-08-06) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Peter (2) Daniel So / 2 Peter 1:5-11 (2024-08-02) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Peter (1) Daniel So / 2 Peter 1:1-4 (2024-08-01) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Thessalonians (3) Daniel So / 2 Thessalonians 3:1-18 (2024-05-10) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Thessalonians (2) Daniel So / 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 (2024-05-09) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 2 Thessalonians (1) Daniel So / 2 Thessalonians 1:1-12 (2024-05-08) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Thessalonians (5) Daniel So / 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:28 (2024-05-07) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Thessalonians (4) Daniel So / 1 Thessalonians 4:1-12 (2024-05-03) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Thessalonians (3) Daniel So / 1 Thessalonians 2:17-3:13 (2024-05-02) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Thessalonians (2) Daniel So / 1 Thessalonians 2:1-16 (2024-05-01) by One Hope Church

EC [Morning By Morning] 1 Thessalonians (1) Daniel So / 1 Thessalonians 1:1-10 (2024-04-30) by One Hope Church

Table of contentsNote: links take you to the corresponding section below; links to the original episode can be found there.* Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]* Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]* Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]* Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]* Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]* Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54]* Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]* Max Alexander and I solve ethics, philosophy of mind, and cancel culture once and for all [01:24:43]* Sarah Woodhouse on discovering AI x-risk, Twitter, and more [01:30:56] * Pigeon Hour x Consistently Candid pod-crossover: I debate moral realism with Max Alexander and Sarah Hastings-Woodhouse [01:41:08]Intro [00:00:00]To wrap up the year of Pigeon Hour, the podcast, I put together some clips from each episode to create a best-of compilation. This was inspired by 80,000 Hours, a podcast that did the same with their episodes, and I thought it was pretty cool and tractable enough.It's important to note that the clips I chose range in length significantly. This does not represent the quality or amount of interesting content in the episode. Sometimes there was a natural place to break the episode into a five-minute chunk, and other times it wouldn't have made sense to take a five-minute chunk out of what really needed to be a 20-minute segment. I promise I'm not just saying that.So without further ado, please enjoy.#1: Laura Duffy solves housing, ethics, and more [00:01:16]In this first segment, Laura, Duffy, and I discuss the significance and interpretation of Aristotle's philosophical works in relation to modern ethics and virtue theory.AARON: Econ is like more interesting. I don't know. I don't even remember of all the things. I don't know, it seems like kind of cool. Philosophy. Probably would have majored in philosophy if signaling wasn't an issue. Actually, maybe I'm not sure if that's true. Okay. I didn't want to do the old stuff though, so I'm actually not sure. But if I could aristotle it's all wrong. Didn't you say you got a lot out of Nicomachi or however you pronounce that?LAURA: Nicomachian ethics guide to how you should live your life. About ethics as applied to your life because you can't be perfect. Utilitarians. There's no way to be that.AARON: But he wasn't even responding to utilitarianism. I'm sure it was a good work given the time, but like, there's like no other discipline in which we care. So people care so much about like, what people thought 2000 years ago because like the presumption, I think the justified presumption is that things have iterated and improved since then. And I think that's true. It's like not just a presumption.LAURA: Humans are still rather the same and what our needs are for living amongst each other in political society are kind of the same. I think America's founding is very influenced by what people thought 2000 years ago.AARON: Yeah, descriptively that's probably true. But I don't know, it seems like all the whole body of philosophers have they've already done the work of, like, compressing the good stuff. Like the entire academy since like, 1400 or whatever has like, compressed the good stuff and like, gotten rid of the bad stuff. Not in like a high fidelity way, but like a better than chance way. And so the stuff that remains if you just take the state of I don't know if you read the Oxford Handbook of whatever it is, like ethics or something, the takeaways you're going to get from that are just better than the takeaways you're going to get from a summary of the state of the knowledge in any prior year. At least. Unless something weird happened. And I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense.LAURA: I think we're talking about two different things, though. Okay. In terms of knowledge about logic or something or, I don't know, argumentation about trying to derive the correct moral theory or something, versus how should we think about our own lives. I don't see any reason as to why the framework of virtue theory is incorrect and just because it's old. There's many virtue theorists now who are like, oh yeah, they were really on to something and we need to adapt it for the times in which we live and the kind of societies we live in now. But it's still like there was a huge kernel of truth in at least the way of thinking that Aristotle put forth in terms of balancing the different virtues that you care about and trying to find. I think this is true. Right? Like take one virtue of his humor. You don't want to be on one extreme where you're just basically a meme your entire life. Everybody thinks you're funny, but that's just not very serious. But you don't want to be a boar and so you want to find somewhere in the middle where it's like you have a good sense of humor, but you can still function and be respected by other people.AARON: Yeah. Once again, I agree. Well, I don't agree with everything. I agree with a lot of what you just said. I think there was like two main points of either confusion or disagreement. And like, the first one is that I definitely think, no, Aristotle shouldn't be discounted or like his ideas or virtue ethics or anything like that shouldn't be discounted because they were canonical texts or something were written a long time ago. I guess it's just like a presumption that I have a pretty strong presumption that conditional on them being good, they would also be written about today. And so you don't actually need to go back to the founding texts and then in fact, you probably shouldn't because the good stuff will be explained better and not in weird it looks like weird terms. The terms are used differently and they're like translations from Aramaic or whatever. Probably not Aramaic, probably something else. And yeah, I'm not sure if you.LAURA: Agree with this because we have certain assumptions about what words like purpose mean now that we're probably a bit richer in the old conception of them like telos or happiness. Right. Udaimnia is much better concept and to read the original text and see how those different concepts work together is actually quite enriching compared to how do people use these words now. And it would take like I don't know, I think there just is a lot of value of looking at how these were originally conceived because popularizers of the works now or people who are seriously doing philosophy using these concepts. You just don't have the background knowledge that's necessary to understand them fully if you don't read the canonical text.AARON: Yeah, I think that would be true. If you are a native speaker. Do you know Greek? If you know Greek, this is like dumb because then you're just right.LAURA: I did take a quarter of it.AARON: Oh God. Oh my God. I don't know if that counts, but that's like more than anybody should ever take. No, I'm just kidding. That's very cool. No, because I was going to say if you're a native speaker of Greek and you have the connotations of the word eudaimonia and you were like living in the temper shuttle, I would say. Yeah, that's true actually. That's a lot of nuanced, connotation and context that definitely gets lost with translation. But once you take the jump of reading English translations of the texts, not you may as well but there's nothing super special. You're not getting any privileged knowledge from saying the word eudaimonia as opposed to just saying some other term as a reference to that concept or something. You're absorbing the connotation in the context via English, I guess, via the mind of literally the translators who have like.LAURA: Yeah, well see, I tried to learn virtue theory by any other route than reading Aristotle.AARON: Oh God.LAURA: I took a course specifically on Plato and Aristotle.AARON: Sorry, I'm not laughing at you. I'm just like the opposite type of philosophy person.LAURA: But keep going. Fair. But she had us read his physics before we read Nicomachi.AARON: Think he was wrong about all that.LAURA: Stuff, but it made you understand what he meant by his teleology theory so much better in a way that I could not get if I was reading some modern thing.AARON: I don't know, I feel like you probably could. No, sorry, that's not true. I don't think you could get what Aristotle the man truly believed as well via a modern text. But is that what you? Depends. If you're trying to be a scholar of Aristotle, maybe that's important. If you're trying to find the best or truest ethics and learn the lessons of how to live, that's like a different type of task. I don't think Aristotle the man should be all that privileged in that.LAURA: If all of the modern people who are talking about virtue theory are basically Aristotle, then I don't see the difference.AARON: Oh, yeah, I guess. Fair enough. And then I would say, like, oh, well, they should probably start. Is that in fact the state of the things in virtue theory? I don't even know.LAURA: I don't know either.#2 Arjun Panickssery solves books, hobbies, and blogging, but fails to solve the Sleeping Beauty problem because he's wrong on that one [00:10:47]All right, next, Arjun Panixery and I explore the effectiveness of reading books in retaining and incorporating knowledge, discussing the value of long form content and the impact of great literary works on understanding and shaping personal worldviews.ARJUN: Oh, you were in the book chat, though. The book rant group chat, right?AARON: Yeah, I think I might have just not read any of it. So do you want to fill me in on what I should have read?ARJUN: Yeah, it's group chat of a bunch of people where we were arguing about a bunch of claims related to books. One of them is that most people don't remember pretty much anything from books that they read, right? They read a book and then, like, a few months later, if you ask them about it, they'll just say one page's worth of information or maybe like, a few paragraphs. The other is that what is it exactly? It's that if you read a lot of books, it could be that you just incorporate the information that's important into your existing models and then just forget the information. So it's actually fine. Isn't this what you wrote in your blog post or whatever? I think that's why I added you to that.AARON: Oh, thank you. I'm sorry I'm such a bad group chat participant. Yeah, honestly, I wrote that a while ago. I don't fully remember exactly what it says, but at least one of the things that it said was and that I still basically stand by, is that it's basically just like it's increasing the salience of a set of ideas more so than just filling your brain with more facts. And I think this is probably true insofar as the facts support a set of common themes or ideas that are kind of like the intellectual core of it. It would be really hard. Okay, so this is not a book, but okay. I've talked about how much I love an 80,000 hours podcast, and I've listened to, I don't think every episode, but at least 100 of the episodes. And no, you're just, like, not going to definitely I've forgotten most of the actual almost all of the actual propositional pieces of information said, but you're just not going to convince me that it's completely not affecting either model of the world or stuff that I know or whatever. I mean, there are facts that I could list. I think maybe I should try.ARJUN: Sure.AARON: Yeah. So what's your take on book other long form?ARJUN: Oh, I don't know. I'm still quite confused or I think the impetus for the group chat's creation was actually Hanania's post where he wrote the case against most books or most was in parentheses or something. I mean, there's a lot of things going on in that post. He just goes off against a bunch of different categories of books that are sort of not closely related. Like, he goes off against great. I mean, this is not the exact take he gives, but it's something like the books that are considered great are considered great literature for some sort of contingent reason, not because they're the best at getting you information that you want.AARON: This is, like, another topic. But I'm, like, anti great books. In fact, I'm anti great usually just means old and famous. So insofar as that's what we mean by I'm like, I think this is a bad thing, or, like, I don't know, aristotle is basically wrong about everything and stuff like that.ARJUN: Right, yeah. Wait, we could return to this. I guess this could also be divided into its component categories. He spends more time, though, I think, attacking a certain kind of nonfiction book that he describes as the kind of book that somebody pitches to a publisher and basically expands a single essay's worth of content into with a bunch of anecdotes and stuff. He's like, most of these books are just not very useful to read, I guess. I agree with that.AARON: Yeah. Is there one that comes to mind as, like, an? Mean, I think of Malcolm Gladwell as, like, the kind of I haven't actually read any of his stuff in a while, but I did, I think, when I started reading nonfiction or with any sort of intent, I read. A bunch of his stuff or whatever and vaguely remember that this is basically what he like for better or.ARJUN: Um yeah, I guess so. But he's almost, like, trying to do it on purpose. This is the experience that you're getting by reading a Malcolm Gladwell book. It's like talib. Right? It's just him just ranting. I'm thinking, I guess, of books that are about something. So, like, if you have a book that's know negotiation or something, it'll be filled with a bunch of anecdotes that are of dubious usefulness. Or if you get a book that's just about some sort of topic, there'll be historical trivia that's irrelevant. Maybe I can think of an example.AARON: Yeah. So the last thing I tried to read, maybe I am but haven't in a couple of weeks or whatever, is like, the Derek Parfit biography. And part of this is motivated because I don't even like biographies in general for some reason, I don't know. But I don't know. He's, like, an important guy. Some of the anecdotes that I heard were shockingly close to home for me, or not close to home, but close to my brain or something. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll see if this guy's like the smarter version of Aaron Bergman. And it's not totally true.ARJUN: Sure, I haven't read the book, but I saw tweet threads about it, as one does, and I saw things that are obviously false. Right. It's the claims that he read, like, a certain number of pages while brushing his teeth. That's, like, anatomically impossible or whatever. Did you get to that part? Or I assumed no, I also saw.AARON: That tweet and this is not something that I do, but I don't know if it's anatomically impossible. Yeah, it takes a little bit of effort to figure out how to do that, I guess. I don't think that's necessarily false or whatever, but this is probably not the most important.ARJUN: Maybe it takes long time to brush his teeth.#3: Nathan Barnard on how financial regulation can inform AI regulation [00:17:16]In this next segment, Nathan Barnard and I dive into the complexities of AI regulation, including potential challenges and outcomes of governing AI in relation to economic growth and existential security. And we compare it to banking regulation as well.AARON: Yeah, I don't know. I just get gloomy for, I think justified reasons when people talk about, oh yeah, here's the nine step process that has to take place and then maybe there's like a 20% chance that we'll be able to regulate AI effectively. I'm being facetious or exaggerating, something like that, but not by a gigantic amount.NATHAN: I think this is pretty radically different to my mainline expectation.AARON: What's your mainline expectation?NATHAN: I suppose I expect like AI to come with an increasing importance past economy and to come up to really like a very large fraction of the economy before really crazy stuff starts happening and this world is going very anonymous. Anonymous, anonymous, anonymous. I know the word is it'd be very unusual if this extremely large sector economy which was impacted like a very large number of people's lives remains like broadly unregulated.AARON: It'll be regulated, but just maybe in a stupid way.NATHAN: Sure, yes, maybe in a stupid way. I suppose critically, do you expect the stupid way to be like too conservative or too like the specific question of AI accenture it's basically too conservative or too lenient or I just won't be able to interact with this.AARON: I guess generally too lenient, but also mostly on a different axis where just like I don't actually know enough. I don't feel like I've read learned about various governance proposals to have a good object level take on this. But my broad prior is that there are just a lot of ways to for anything. There's a lot of ways to regulate something poorly. And the reason insofar as anything isn't regulated poorly it's because of a lot of trial and error.NATHAN: Maybe.AARON: I mean, there's probably exceptions, right? I don't know. Tax Americana is like maybe we didn't just kept winning wars starting with World War II. I guess just like maybe like a counterexample or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think I still mostly disagree with this. Oh, cool. Yeah. I suppose I see a much like broader spectrum between bad regulation and good regulation. I agree it's like very small amount. The space of optimal regulation is very small. But I think we have to hit that space for regulation to be helpful. Especially in this especially if you consider that if you sort of buy the AI extension safety risk then the downsides of it's not this quite fine balancing act between too much whether consumer protection and siphoning competition and cycling innovation too much. It's like trying to end this quite specific, very bad outcome which is maybe much worse than going somewhat slowering economic growth, at least somewhat particularly if we think we're going to get something. This is very explosive rates for economic growth really quite soon. And the cost of slowing down economic growth by weather even by quite a large percentage, very small compared to the cost of sort of an accidental catastrophe. I sort of think of Sony iconic growth as the main cost of main way regulation goes wrong currently.AARON: I think in an actual sense that is correct. There's the question of like okay, Congress in the states like it's better than nothing. I'm glad it's not anarchy in terms of like I'm glad we have a legislature.NATHAN: I'm also glad the United States.AARON: How reasons responsive is Congress? I don't think reasons responsive enough to make it so that the first big law that gets passed insofar as there is one or if there is one is on the pareto frontier trading off between economic growth and existential security. It's going to be way inside of that production frontier or whatever. It's going to suck on every action, maybe not every act but at least like some relevant actions.NATHAN: Yeah that doesn't seem like obviously true to me. I think Dodge Frank was quite a good law.AARON: That came after 2008, right?NATHAN: Yeah correct. Yeah there you go. No, I agree. I'm not especially confident about doing regulation before there's some quite bad before there's a quite bad warning shot and yes, if we're in world where we have no warning shots and we're just like blindsided by everyone getting turned into everyone getting stripped their Athens within 3 seconds, this is not good. Both in law we do have one of those shots and I think Glass Seagull is good law. Not good law is a technical term. I think Glass Steagall was a good piece of legislation. I think DoD Frank was a good piece of legislation. I think the 2008 Seamless Bill was good piece of legislation. I think the Troubled Assets Relief Program is a good piece of piece of legislation.AARON: I recognize these terms and I know some of them and others I do not know the contents of.NATHAN: Yeah so Glass Eagle was the financial regulation passed in 1933 after Great Depression. The Tropical Asset Relief Program was passed in I think 2008, moved 2009 to help recapitalize banks. Dodge Frank was the sort of landmark post financial cris piece of legislation passed in 2011. I think these are all good pieces of legislation now. I think like financial regulation is probably unusually good amongst US legislation. This is like a quite weak take, I guess. It's unusually.AARON: So. I don't actually know the pre depression financial history at all but I feel like the more relevant comparison to the 21st century era is what was the regulatory regime in 1925 or something? I just don't know.NATHAN: Yeah, I know a bit. I haven't read this stuff especially deeply and so I don't want to don't want to be so overcompensant here but sort of the core pieces which were sort of important for the sort of the Great Depression going very badly was yeah, no distinction between commercial banks and investment banks. Yes, such a bank could take much riskier. Much riskier. Things with like custom deposits than they could from 1933 until the Peel Glass Eagle. And combine that with no deposit insurance and if you sort of have the combination of banks being able to do quite risky things with depositors money and no deposit insurance, this is quite dangerously known. And glassy repeal.AARON: I'm an expert in the sense that I have the Wikipedia page up. Well, yeah, there was a bunch of things. Basically. There's the first bank of the United States. There's the second bank of the United States. There's the free banking era. There was the era of national banks. Yada, yada, yada. It looks like 19. Seven was there was some panic. I vaguely remember this from like, AP US history, like seven years ago or.NATHAN: Yes, I suppose in short, I sort of agree that the record of sort of non post Cris legislation is like, not very good, but I think record of post Cris legislation really, at least in the financial sector, really is quite good. I'm sure lots of people disagree with this, but this is my take.#4 Winston Oswald-Drummond on the tractability of reducing s-risk, ethics, and more [00:27:48]Up next, Winston Oswald Drummond and I talk about the effectiveness and impact of donating to various research organizations, such as suffering-focused S-risk organizations. We discuss tractability, expected value, and essentially where we should give our money.AARON: Okay, nice. Yeah. Where to go from here? I feel like largely we're on the same page, I feel like.WINSTON: Yeah. Is your disagreement mostly tractability? Then? Maybe we should get into the disagreement.AARON: Yeah. I don't even know if I've specified, but insofar as I have one, yes, it's trapped ability. This is the reason why I haven't donated very much to anywhere for money reasons. But insofar as I have, I have not donated to Clrcrs because I don't see a theory of change that connects the research currently being done to actually reducing s risks. And I feel like there must be something because there's a lot of extremely smart people at both of these orgs or whatever, and clearly they thought about this and maybe the answer is it's very general and the outcome is just so big in magnitude that anything kind.WINSTON: Of that is part of it, I think. Yeah, part of it is like an expected value thing and also it's just very neglected. So it's like you want some people working on this, I think, at least. Even if it's unlikely to work. Yeah, even that might be underselling it, though. I mean, I do think there's people at CRS and Clr, like talking to people at AI labs and some people in politics and these types of things. And hopefully the research is a way to know what to try to get done at these places. You want to have some concrete recommendations and I think obviously people have to also be willing to listen to you, but I think there is some work being done on that and research is partially just like a community building thing as well. It's a credible signal that you were smart and have thought about this, and so it gives people reason to listen to you and maybe that mostly pays off later on in the future.AARON: Yeah, that all sounds like reasonable. And I guess one thing is that I just don't there's definitely things I mean, first of all, I haven't really stayed up to date on what's going on, so I haven't even done I've done zero research for this podcast episode, for example. Very responsible and insofar as I've know things about these. Orgs. It's just based on what's on their website at some given time. So insofar as there's outreach going on, not like behind the scenes, but just not in a super public way, or I guess you could call that behind the scenes. I just don't have reason to, I guess, know about that. And I guess, yeah, I'm pretty comfortable. I don't even know if this is considered biting a bullet for the crowd that will be listening to this, if that's anybody but with just like yeah, saying a very small change for a very large magnitude, just, like, checks out. You can just do expected value reasoning and that's basically correct, like a correct way of thinking about ethics. But even I don't know how much you know specifically or, like, how much you're allowed want to reveal, but if there was a particular alignment agenda that I guess you in a broad sense, like the suffering focused research community thought was particularly promising and relative to other tractable, I guess, generic alignment recommendations. And you were doing research on that and trying to push that into the alignment mainstream, which is not very mainstream. And then with the hope that that jumps into the AI mainstream. Even if that's kind of a long chain of events. I think I would be a lot more enthusiastic about I don't know that type of agenda, because it feels like there's like a particular story you're telling where it cashes out in the end. You know what I mean?WINSTON: Yeah, I'm not the expert on this stuff, but I do think you just mean I think there's some things about influencing alignment and powerful AI for sure. Maybe not like a full on, like, this is our alignment proposal and it also handles Sris. But some things we could ask AI labs that are already building, like AGI, we could say, can you also implement these sort of, like, safeguards so if you failed alignment, you fail sort of gracefully and don't cause lots of suffering.AARON: Right?WINSTON: Yeah. Or maybe there are other things too, which also seem potentially more tractable. Even if you solve alignment in some sense, like aligning with whatever the human operator tells the AI to do, then you can also get the issue that malevolent actors can take control of the AI and then what they want also causes lots of suffering that type of alignment wouldn't. Yeah, and I guess I tend to be somewhat skeptical of coherent extrapolated volition and things like this, where the idea is sort of like it'll just figure out our values and do the right thing. So, yeah, there's some ways to push on this without having a full alignment plan, but I'm not sure if that counts as what you were saying.AARON: No, I guess it does. Yeah, it sounds like it does. And it could be that I'm just kind of mistaken about the degree to which that type of research and outreach is going on. That sounds like it's at least partially true.#5: Nathan Barnard (again!) on why general intelligence is basically fake [00:34:10]Up next, Nathan Barnard is back for his second episode. And we talked about the nature of general intelligence, its relationship with language and the implications of specialized brain functions on the understanding of human cognitive abilities.NATHAN: Yes. This like symbolic like symbolic, symbolic reasoning stuff. Yeah. So I think if I was, like, making the if I was, like, making the case for general intelligence being real, I wouldn't have symbolic reasoning, but I would have language stuff. I'd have this hierarchical structure thing, which.AARON: I would probably so I think of at least most uses of language and central examples as a type of symbolic reasoning because words mean things. They're like yeah. Pointers to objects or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah, I think it's like, pretty confidence isn't where this isn't a good enough description of general intelligence. So, for instance so if you bit in your brain called, I'm using a checklist, I don't fuck this up vernacular, I'm not making this cool. Lots of connects to use words like pointers as these arbitrary signs happens mostly in this area of the brain called Berkeley's area. But very famously, you can have Berkeley's epaxics who lose the ability to do language comprehension and use the ability to consistently use words as pointers, as signs to point to things, but still have perfect good spatial reasoning abilities. And so, conversely, people with brokers of fascia who fuck up, who have the broker's reason their brain fucks up will not be able to form fluent sentences and have some problems like unsigned syntax, and they'll still be able to have very good spatial reasoning. It could still, for instance, be like, good engineers. Would you like many problems which, like, cost engineering?AARON: Yeah, I totally buy that. I don't think language is the central thing. I think it's like an outgrowth of, like I don't know, there's like a simplified model I could make, which is like it's like an outgrowth of whatever general intelligence really is. But whatever the best spatial or graphical model is, I don't think language is cognition.NATHAN: Yes, this is a really big debate in psycholinguistics as to whether language is like an outgrowth of other abilities like the brain has, whether language whether there's very specialized language modules. Yeah, this is just like a very live debate in psycholinguistics moments. I actually do lean towards the reason I've been talking about this actually just going to explain this hierarchical structure thing? Yeah, I keep talking about it. So one theory for how you can comprehend new sentences, like, the dominant theory in linguistics, how you can comprehend new sentences, um, is you break them up into, like you break them up into, like, chunks, and you form these chunks together in this, like, tree structure. So something like, if you hear, like, a totally novel sentence like the pit bull mastiff flopped around deliciously or something, you can comprehend what the sentence means despite the fact you've never heard it. Theory behind this is you saw yes, this can be broken up into this tree structure, where the different, like, ah, like like bits of the sentence. So, like like the mastiff would be like, one bit, and then you have, like, another bit, which is like, the mastiff I can't remember I said rolled around, so that'd be like, another bit, and then you'd have connectors to our heart.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: So the massive rolling around one theory of one of the sort of distinctive things that humans have disabilities is like, this quite general ability to break things up into these these tree structures. This is controversial within psycholinguistics, but it's broadly an area which I broadly buy it because we do see harms to other areas of intelligence. You get much worse at, like, Ravens Progressive Matrices, for instance, when you have, like, an injury to brokers area, but, like, not worse at, like, tests like tests of space, of, like, spatial reasoning, for instance.AARON: So what is like, is there, like, a main alternative to, like, how humans.NATHAN: Understand language as far as this specificity of how we pass completely novel sentences, as far as where this is just like this is just like the the academic consensus. Okay.AARON: I mean, it sounds totally like right? I don't know.NATHAN: Yeah. But yeah, I suppose going back to saying, how far is language like an outgrowth of general intelligence? An outgrowth like general intelligence versus having much more specialized language modules? Yeah, I lean towards the latter, despite yeah, I still don't want to give too strong of a personal opinion here because I'm not a linguistic this is a podcast.AARON: You're allowed to give takes. No one's going to say this is like the academic we want takes.NATHAN: We want takes. Well, gone to my head is.AARON: I.NATHAN: Think language is not growth of other abilities. I think the main justification for this, I think, is that the loss of other abilities we see when you have damage to broker's area and verca's area.AARON: Okay, cool. So I think we basically agree on that. And also, I guess one thing to highlight is I think outgrowth can mean a couple of different things. I definitely think it's plausible. I haven't read about this. I think I did at some point, but not in a while. But outgrowth could mean temporarily or whatever. I think I'm kind of inclined to think it's not that straightforward. You could have coevolution where language per se encourages both its own development and the development of some general underlying trait or something.NATHAN: Yeah. Which seems likely.AARON: Okay, cool. So why don't humans have general intelligence?NATHAN: Right. Yeah. As I was sort of talking about previously.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: I think I think I'd like to use go back to like a high level like a high level argument is there appears to be very surprised, like, much higher levels of functional specialization in brains than you expect. You can lose much more specific abilities than you expect to be able to lose. You can lose specifically the ability a famous example is like facebindness, actually. You probably lose the ability to specifically recognize things which you're, like, an expert in.AARON: Who does it or who loses this ability.NATHAN: If you've damaged your fuse inform area, you'll lose the ability to recognize faces, but nothing else.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And there's this general pattern that your brain is much more you can lose much more specific abilities than you expect. So, for instance, if you sort of have damage to your ventral, medial, prefrontal cortex, you can say the reasoning for why you shouldn't compulsively gamble but still compulsively gamble.AARON: For instance okay, I understand this not gambling per se, but like executive function stuff at a visceral level. Okay, keep going.NATHAN: Yeah. Some other nice examples of this. I think memory is quite intuitive. So there's like, a very famous patient called patient HM who had his hippocampus removed and so as a result, lost all declarative memory. So all memory of specific facts and things which happened in his life. He just couldn't remember any of these things, but still perfectly functioning otherwise. I think at a really high level, I think this functional specialization is probably the strongest piece of evidence against the general intelligence hypothesis. I think fundamentally, general intelligence hypothesis implies that, like, if you, like yeah, if you was, like, harm a piece of your brain, if you have some brain injury, you might like generically get worse at tasks you like, generically get worse at, like at like all task groups use general intelligence. But I think suggesting people, including general intelligence, like the ability to write, the ability to speak, maybe not speak, the ability to do math, you do have.AARON: This it's just not as easy to analyze in a Cogsy paper which IQ or whatever. So there is something where if somebody has a particular cubic centimeter of their brain taken out, that's really excellent evidence about what that cubic centimeter does or whatever, but that non spatial modification is just harder to study and analyze. I guess we'll give people drugs, right? Suppose that set aside the psychometric stuff. But suppose that general intelligence is mostly a thing or whatever and you actually can ratchet it up and down. This is probably just true, right? You can probably give somebody different doses of, like, various drugs. I don't know, like laughing gas, like like, yeah, like probably, probably weed. Like I don't know.NATHAN: So I think this just probably isn't true. Your working memory corrects quite strongly with G and having better working memory generic can make you much better at lots of tasks if you have like.AARON: Yeah.NATHAN: Sorry, but this is just like a specific ability. It's like just specifically your working memory, which is improved if you go memory to a drugs. Improved working memory. I think it's like a few things like memory attention, maybe something like decision making, which are all like extremely useful abilities and improve how well other cognitive abilities work. But they're all separate things. If you improved your attention abilities, your working memory, but you sort of had some brain injury, which sort of meant you sort of had lost ability to pass syntax, you would not get better at passing syntax. And you can also use things separately. You can also improve attention and improve working memory separately, which just it's not just this one dial which you can turn up.AARON: There's good reason to expect that we can't turn it up because evolution is already sort of like maximizing, given the relevant constraints. Right. So you would need to be looking just like injuries. Maybe there are studies where they try to increase people's, they try to add a cubic centimeter to someone's brain, but normally it's like the opposite. You start from some high baseline and then see what faculties you lose. Just to clarify, I guess.NATHAN: Yeah, sorry, I think I've lost the you still think there probably is some general intelligence ability to turn up?AARON: Honestly, I think I haven't thought about this nearly as much as you. I kind of don't know what I think at some level. If I could just write down all of the different components and there are like 74 of them and what I think of a general intelligence consists of does that make it I guess in some sense, yeah, that does make it less of an ontologically legit thing or something. I think I think the thing I want to get the motivating thing here is that with humans yet you can like we know humans range in IQ, and there's, like, setting aside a very tiny subset of people with severe brain injuries or development disorders or whatever. Almost everybody has some sort of symbolic reasoning that they can do to some degree. Whereas the smartest maybe I'm wrong about this, but as far as I know, the smartest squirrel is not going to be able to have something semantically represent something else. And that's what I intuitively want to appeal to, you know what I mean?NATHAN: Yeah, I know what you're guessing at. So I think there's like two interesting things here. So I think one is, could a squirrel do this? I'm guessing a squirrel couldn't do this, but a dog can, or like a dog probably can. A chimpanzee definitely can.AARON: Do what?NATHAN: Chimpanzees can definitely learn to associate arbitrary signs, things in the world with arbitrary signs.AARON: Yes, but maybe I'm just adding on epicentercles here, but I feel like correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that maybe I'm just wrong about this, but I would assume that Chicken Tees cannot use that sign in a domain that is qualitatively different from the ones they've been in. Right. So, like, a dog will know that a certain sign means sit or whatever, but maybe that's not a good I.NATHAN: Don'T know think this is basically not true.AARON: Okay.NATHAN: And we sort of know this from teaching.AARON: Teaching.NATHAN: There's like a famously cocoa de guerrilla. Also a bonobo whose name I can't remember were taught sign language. And the thing they were consistently bad at was, like, putting together sentences they could learn quite large vocabularies learning to associate by large, I mean in the hundreds of words, in the low hundreds of words which they could consistently use consistently use correctly.AARON: What do you mean by, like, in what sense? What is bonobo using?NATHAN: A very famous and quite controversial example is like, coco gorilla was like, saw a swan outside and signed water bird. That's like, a controversial example. But other things, I think, which are controversial here is like, the syntax part of putting water and bird together is the controversial part, but it's not the controversial part that she could see a swan and call that a bird.AARON: Yeah, I mean, this is kind of just making me think, okay, maybe the threshold for D is just like at the chimp level or something. We are like or whatever the most like that. Sure. If a species really can generate from a prefix and a suffix or whatever, a concept that they hadn't learned before.NATHAN: Yeah, this is a controversial this is like a controversial example of that the addition to is the controversial part. Yeah, I suppose maybe brings back to why I think this matters is will there be this threshold which AIS cross such that their reasoning after this is qualitatively different to their reasoning previously? And this is like two things. One, like a much faster increase in AI capabilities and two, alignment techniques which worked on systems which didn't have g will no longer work. Systems which do have g. Brings back to why I think this actually matters. But I think if we're sort of accepting it, I think elephants probably also if you think that if we're saying, like, g is like a level of chimpanzees, chimpanzees just, like, don't don't look like quantitatively different to, like, don't look like that qualitatively different to, like, other animals. Now, lots of other animals live in similar complex social groups. Lots of other animals use tools.AARON: Yeah, sure. For one thing, I don't think there's not going to be a discontinuity in the same way that there wasn't a discontinuity at any point between humans evolution from the first prokaryotic cells or whatever are eukaryotic one of those two or both, I guess. My train of thought. Yes, I know it's controversial, but let's just suppose that the sign language thing was legit with the waterbird and that's not like a random one off fluke or something. Then maybe this is just some sort of weird vestigial evolutionary accident that actually isn't very beneficial for chimpanzees and they just stumbled their way into and then it just enabled them to it enables evolution to bootstrap Shimp genomes into human genomes. Because at some the smartest or whatever actually, I don't know. Honestly, I don't have a great grasp of evolutionary biology or evolution at all. But, yeah, it could just be not that helpful for chimps and helpful for an extremely smart chimp that looks kind of different or something like that.NATHAN: Yeah. So I suppose just like the other thing she's going on here, I don't want to keep banging on about this, but you can lose the language. You can lose linguistic ability. And it's just, like, happens this happens in stroke victims, for instance. It's not that rare. Just, like, lose linguistic ability, but still have all the other abilities which we sort of think of as like, general intelligence, which I think would be including the general intelligence, like, hypothesis.AARON: I agree that's, like, evidence against it. I just don't think it's very strong evidence, partially because I think there is a real school of thought that says that language is fundamental. Like, language drives thought. Language is, like, primary to thought or something. And I don't buy that. If you did buy that, I think this would be, like, more damning evidence.#6 Daniel Filan on why I'm wrong about ethics (+ Oppenheimer and what names mean in like a hardcore phil of language sense) [00:56:54][Note: I forgot to record an intro segment here. Sorry!]AARON: Yeah. Yes. I'm also anti scam. Right, thank you. Okay, so I think that thing that we were talking about last time we talked, which is like the thing I think we actually both know stuff about instead of just like, repeating New York Times articles is my nuanced ethics takes and why you think about talk about that and then we can just also branch off from there.DANIEL: Yeah, we can talk about that.AARON: Maybe see where that did. I luckily I have a split screen up, so I can pull up things. Maybe this is kind of like egotistical or something to center my particular view, but you've definitely given me some of the better pushback or whatever that I haven't gotten that much feedback of any kind, I guess, but it's still interesting to hear your take. So basically my ethical position or the thing that I think is true is that which I think is not the default view. I think most people think this is wrong is that total utilitarianism does not imply that for some amount of suffering that could be created there exists some other extremely large arbitrarily, large amount of happiness that could also be created which would morally justify the former. Basically.DANIEL: So you think that even under total utilitarianism there can be big amounts of suffering such that there's no way to morally tip the calculus. However much pleasure you can create, it's just not going to outweigh the fact that you inflicted that much suffering on some people.AARON: Yeah, and I'd highlight the word inflicted if something's already there and you can't do anything about it, that's kind of neither here nor there as it pertains to your actions or something. So it's really about you increasing, you creating suffering that wouldn't have otherwise been created. Yeah. It's also been a couple of months since I've thought about this in extreme detail, although I thought about it quite a bit. Yeah.DANIEL: Maybe I should say my contrary view, I guess, when you say that, I don't know, does total utilitarianism imply something or not? I'm like, well, presumably it depends on what we mean by total utilitarianism. Right. So setting that aside, I think that thesis is probably false. I think that yeah. You can offset great amounts of suffering with great amounts of pleasure, even for arbitrary amounts of suffering.AARON: Okay. I do think that position is like the much more common and even, I'd say default view. Do you agree with that? It's sort of like the implicit position of people who are of self described total utilitarians who haven't thought a ton about this particular question.DANIEL: Yeah, I think it's probably the implicit default. I think it's the implicit default in ethical theory or something. I think that in practice, when you're being a utilitarian, I don't know, normally, if you're trying to be a utilitarian and you see yourself inflicting a large amount of suffering, I don't know. I do think there's some instinct to be like, is there any way we can get around this?AARON: Yeah, for sure. And to be clear, I don't think this would look like a thought experiment. I think what it looks like in practice and also I will throw in caveats as I see necessary, but I think what it looks like in practice is like, spreading either wild animals or humans or even sentient digital life through the universe. That's in a non as risky way, but that's still just maybe like, say, making the earth, making multiple copies of humanity or something like that. That would be an example that's probably not like an example of what an example of creating suffering would be. For example, just creating another duplicate of earth. Okay.DANIEL: Anything that would be like so much suffering that we shouldn't even the pleasures of earth outweighs.AARON: Not necessarily, which is kind of a cop out. But my inclination is that if you include wild animals, the answer is yes, that creating another earth especially. Yeah, but I'm much more committed to some amount. It's like some amount than this particular time and place in human industry is like that or whatever.DANIEL: Okay, can I get a feel of some other concrete cases to see?AARON: Yeah.DANIEL: So one example that's on my mind is, like, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? So the standard case for this is, like, yeah, what? A hundred OD thousand people died? Like, quite terrible, quite awful. And a lot of them died, I guess a lot of them were sort of some people were sort of instantly vaporized, but a lot of people died in extremely painful ways. But the countercase is like, well, the alternative to that would have been like, an incredibly grueling land invasion of Japan, where many more people would have died or know regardless of what the actual alternatives were. If you think about the atomic bombings, do you think that's like the kind of infliction of suffering where there's just not an offsetting amount of pleasure that could make that okay?AARON: My intuition is no, that it is offsettable, but I would also emphasize that given the actual historical contingencies, the alternative, the implicit case for the bombing includes reducing suffering elsewhere rather than merely creating happiness. There can definitely be two bad choices that you have to make or something. And my claim doesn't really pertain to that, at least not directly.#7: Holly Elmore on AI pause, wild animal welfare, and some cool biology things I couldn't fully follow but maybe you can [01:04:00]Up next, Holly Elmore and I discuss the complexities and implications of AI development and open sourcing. We talk about protests and ethical considerations around her, um, uh, campaign to pause the development of frontier AI systems until, until we can tell that they're safe.AARON: So what's the plan? Do you have a plan? You don't have to have a plan. I don't have plans very much.HOLLY: Well, right now I'm hopeful about the UK AI summit. Pause AI and I have planned a multi city protest on the 21 October to encourage the UK AI Safety Summit to focus on safety first and to have as a topic arranging a pause or that of negotiation. There's a lot of a little bit upsetting advertising for that thing that's like, we need to keep up capabilities too. And I just think that's really a secondary objective. And that's how I wanted to be focused on safety. So I'm hopeful about the level of global coordination that we're already seeing. It's going so much faster than we thought. Already the UN Secretary General has been talking about this and there have been meetings about this. It's happened so much faster at the beginning of this year. Nobody thought we could talk about nobody was thinking we'd be talking about this as a mainstream topic. And then actually governments have been very receptive anyway. So right now I'm focused on other than just influencing opinion, the targets I'm focused on, or things like encouraging these international like, I have a protest on Friday, my first protest that I'm leading and kind of nervous that's against Meta. It's at the Meta building in San Francisco about their sharing of model weights. They call it open source. It's like not exactly open source, but I'm probably not going to repeat that message because it's pretty complicated to explain. I really love the pause message because it's just so hard to misinterpret and it conveys pretty clearly what we want very quickly. And you don't have a lot of bandwidth and advocacy. You write a lot of materials for a protest, but mostly what people see is the title.AARON: That's interesting because I sort of have the opposite sense. I agree that in terms of how many informational bits you're conveying in a particular phrase, pause AI is simpler, but in some sense it's not nearly as obvious. At least maybe I'm more of a tech brain person or whatever. But why that is good, as opposed to don't give extremely powerful thing to the worst people in the world. That's like a longer everyone.HOLLY: Maybe I'm just weird. I've gotten the feedback from open source ML people is the number one thing is like, it's too late, there's already super powerful models. There's nothing you can do to stop us, which sounds so villainous, I don't know if that's what they mean. Well, actually the number one message is you're stupid, you're not an ML engineer. Which like, okay, number two is like, it's too late, there's nothing you can do. There's all of these other and Meta is not even the most powerful generator of models that it share of open source models. I was like, okay, fine. And I don't know, I don't think that protesting too much is really the best in these situations. I just mostly kind of let that lie. I could give my theory of change on this and why I'm focusing on Meta. Meta is a large company I'm hoping to have influence on. There is a Meta building in San Francisco near where yeah, Meta is the biggest company that is doing this and I think there should be a norm against model weight sharing. I was hoping it would be something that other employees of other labs would be comfortable attending and that is a policy that is not shared across the labs. Obviously the biggest labs don't do it. So OpenAI is called OpenAI but very quickly decided not to do that. Yeah, I kind of wanted to start in a way that made it more clear than pause AI. Does that anybody's welcome something? I thought a one off issue like this that a lot of people could agree and form a coalition around would be good. A lot of people think that this is like a lot of the open source ML people think know this is like a secret. What I'm saying is secretly an argument for tyranny. I just want centralization of power. I just think that there are elites that are better qualified to run everything. It was even suggested I didn't mention China. It even suggested that I was racist because I didn't think that foreign people could make better AIS than Meta.AARON: I'm grimacing here. The intellectual disagreeableness, if that's an appropriate term or something like that. Good on you for standing up to some pretty bad arguments.HOLLY: Yeah, it's not like that worth it. I'm lucky that I truly am curious about what people think about stuff like that. I just find it really interesting. I spent way too much time understanding the alt. Right. For instance, I'm kind of like sure I'm on list somewhere because of the forums I was on just because I was interested and it is something that serves me well with my adversaries. I've enjoyed some conversations with people where I kind of like because my position on all this is that look, I need to be convinced and the public needs to be convinced that this is safe before we go ahead. So I kind of like not having to be the smart person making the arguments. I kind of like being like, can you explain like I'm five. I still don't get it. How does this work?AARON: Yeah, no, I was thinking actually not long ago about open source. Like the phrase has such a positive connotation and in a lot of contexts it really is good. I don't know. I'm glad that random tech I don't know, things from 2004 or whatever, like the reddit source code is like all right, seems cool that it's open source. I don't actually know if that was how that right. But yeah, I feel like maybe even just breaking down what the positive connotation comes from and why it's in people's self. This is really what I was thinking about, is like, why is it in people's self interest to open source things that they made and that might break apart the allure or sort of ethical halo that it has around it? And I was thinking it probably has something to do with, oh, this is like how if you're a tech person who makes some cool product, you could try to put a gate around it by keeping it closed source and maybe trying to get intellectual property or something. But probably you're extremely talented already, or pretty wealthy. Definitely can be hired in the future. And if you're not wealthy yet I don't mean to put things in just materialist terms, but basically it could easily be just like in a yeah, I think I'll probably take that bit out because I didn't mean to put it in strictly like monetary terms, but basically it just seems like pretty plausibly in an arbitrary tech person's self interest, broadly construed to, in fact, open source their thing, which is totally fine and normal.HOLLY: I think that's like 99 it's like a way of showing magnanimity showing, but.AARON: I don't make this sound so like, I think 99.9% of human behavior is like this. I'm not saying it's like, oh, it's some secret, terrible self interested thing, but just making it more mechanistic. Okay, it's like it's like a status thing. It's like an advertising thing. It's like, okay, you're not really in need of direct economic rewards, or sort of makes sense to play the long game in some sense, and this is totally normal and fine, but at the end of the day, there's reasons why it makes sense, why it's in people's self interest to open source.HOLLY: Literally, the culture of open source has been able to bully people into, like, oh, it's immoral to keep it for yourself. You have to release those. So it's just, like, set the norms in a lot of ways, I'm not the bully. Sounds bad, but I mean, it's just like there is a lot of pressure. It looks bad if something is closed source.AARON: Yeah, it's kind of weird that Meta I don't know, does Meta really think it's in their I don't know. Most economic take on this would be like, oh, they somehow think it's in their shareholders interest to open source.HOLLY: There are a lot of speculations on why they're doing this. One is that? Yeah, their models aren't as good as the top labs, but if it's open source, then open source quote, unquote then people will integrate it llama Two into their apps. Or People Will Use It And Become I don't know, it's a little weird because I don't know why using llama Two commits you to using llama Three or something, but it just ways for their models to get in in places where if you just had to pay for their models too, people would go for better ones. That's one thing. Another is, yeah, I guess these are too speculative. I don't want to be seen repeating them since I'm about to do this purchase. But there's speculation that it's in best interests in various ways to do this. I think it's possible also that just like so what happened with the release of Llama One is they were going to allow approved people to download the weights, but then within four days somebody had leaked Llama One on four chan and then they just were like, well, whatever, we'll just release the weights. And then they released Llama Two with the weights from the beginning. And it's not like 100% clear that they intended to do full open source or what they call Open source. And I keep saying it's not open source because this is like a little bit of a tricky point to make. So I'm not emphasizing it too much. So they say that they're open source, but they're not. The algorithms are not open source. There are open source ML models that have everything open sourced and I don't think that that's good. I think that's worse. So I don't want to criticize them for that. But they're saying it's open source because there's all this goodwill associated with open source. But actually what they're doing is releasing the product for free or like trade secrets even you could say like things that should be trade secrets. And yeah, they're telling people how to make it themselves. So it's like a little bit of a they're intentionally using this label that has a lot of positive connotations but probably according to Open Source Initiative, which makes the open Source license, it should be called something else or there should just be like a new category for LLMs being but I don't want things to be more open. It could easily sound like a rebuke that it should be more open to make that point. But I also don't want to call it Open source because I think Open source software should probably does deserve a lot of its positive connotation, but they're not releasing the part, that the software part because that would cut into their business. I think it would be much worse. I think they shouldn't do it. But I also am not clear on this because the Open Source ML critics say that everyone does have access to the same data set as Llama Two. But I don't know. Llama Two had 7 billion tokens and that's more than GPT Four. And I don't understand all of the details here. It's possible that the tokenization process was different or something and that's why there were more. But Meta didn't say what was in the longitude data set and usually there's some description given of what's in the data set that led some people to speculate that maybe they're using private data. They do have access to a lot of private data that shouldn't be. It's not just like the common crawl backup of the Internet. Everybody's basing their training on that and then maybe some works of literature they're not supposed to. There's like a data set there that is in question, but metas is bigger than bigger than I think well, sorry, I don't have a list in front of me. I'm not going to get stuff wrong, but it's bigger than kind of similar models and I thought that they have access to extra stuff that's not public. And it seems like people are asking if maybe that's part of the training set. But yeah, the ML people would have or the open source ML people that I've been talking to would have believed that anybody who's decent can just access all of the training sets that they've all used.AARON: Aside, I tried to download in case I'm guessing, I don't know, it depends how many people listen to this. But in one sense, for a competent ML engineer, I'm sure open source really does mean that. But then there's people like me. I don't know. I knew a little bit of R, I think. I feel like I caught on the very last boat where I could know just barely enough programming to try to learn more, I guess. Coming out of college, I don't know, a couple of months ago, I tried to do the thing where you download Llama too, but I tried it all and now I just have like it didn't work. I have like a bunch of empty folders and I forget got some error message or whatever. Then I tried to train my own tried to train my own model on my MacBook. It just printed. That's like the only thing that a language model would do because that was like the most common token in the training set. So anyway, I'm just like, sorry, this is not important whatsoever.HOLLY: Yeah, I feel like torn about this because I used to be a genomicist and I used to do computational biology and it was not machine learning, but I used a highly parallel GPU cluster. And so I know some stuff about it and part of me wants to mess around with it, but part of me feels like I shouldn't get seduced by this. I am kind of worried that this has happened in the AI safety community. It's always been people who are interested in from the beginning, it was people who are interested in singularity and then realized there was this problem. And so it's always been like people really interested in tech and wanting to be close to it. And I think we've been really influenced by our direction, has been really influenced by wanting to be where the action is with AI development. And I don't know that that was right.AARON: Not personal, but I guess individual level I'm not super worried about people like you and me losing the plot by learning more about ML on their personal.HOLLY: You know what I mean? But it does just feel sort of like I guess, yeah, this is maybe more of like a confession than, like a point. But it does feel a little bit like it's hard for me to enjoy in good conscience, like, the cool stuff.AARON: Okay. Yeah.HOLLY: I just see people be so attached to this as their identity. They really don't want to go in a direction of not pursuing tech because this is kind of their whole thing. And what would they do if we weren't working toward AI? This is a big fear that people express to me with they don't say it in so many words usually, but they say things like, well, I don't want AI to never get built about a pause. Which, by the way, just to clear up, my assumption is that a pause would be unless society ends for some other reason, that a pause would eventually be lifted. It couldn't be forever. But some people are worried that if you stop the momentum now, people are just so luddite in their insides that we would just never pick it up again. Or something like that. And, yeah, there's some identity stuff that's been expressed. Again, not in so many words to me about who will we be if we're just sort of like activists instead of working on.AARON: Maybe one thing that we might actually disagree on. It's kind of important is whether so I think we both agree that Aipause is better than the status quo, at least broadly, whatever. I know that can mean different things, but yeah, maybe I'm not super convinced, actually, that if I could just, like what am I trying to say? Maybe at least right now, if I could just imagine the world where open eye and Anthropic had a couple more years to do stuff and nobody else did, that would be better. I kind of think that they are reasonably responsible actors. And so I don't k

Joël is joined by thoughtbot Software Developer and Dirt Jumper Daniel Nolan. Dirt jumping is BMX-style riding

[EC] [Morning By Morning] 2023-05-19 /Ecclesiastes (14) Daniel So - 12:1-14 by One Hope Church

[EC] [Morning By Morning] 2023-05-18 /Ecclesiastes (13) Daniel So - 11:1-10 by One Hope Church

[EC] [Morning By Morning] 2023-05-17 /Ecclesiastes (12) Daniel So - 10:1-20 by One Hope Church

[EC] [Morning By Morning] 2023-05-05 /Ecclesiastes (11) Daniel So - 9:11-18 by One Hope Church

[EC] [Morning By Morning] 2023-05-04 /Ecclesiastes (10) Daniel So - 9:1-10 by One Hope Church

Jeya and Daniel So join the pod to talk about what is a third culture leader, how to develop them, and the gifts they bring. Jeya and Daniel believe that changing our attitude toward post-Christendom will help us all, and why Christ does not erase our cultural or ethnic heritage, but rather redeems it. Revs. Jeya and Daniel So are the co-founding and co-lead pastors of Anchor City Church, a third-culture community in San Diego,CA. They are contributing authors to the book, "Deconstructing Church Planting: Reconstructing a Post-Colonial and Post-industrial Pneumatology for the Next Generation of Churches" as well as other books. Jeya also works as a coach, cohort leader, and in other capacities with church and industry leaders in several denominations and organizations, including the PC(USA)'s 1001 New Worshipping Communities, Cyclical Inc. and ISAAC (Innovative Space for Asian American Christianity).Daniel serves as director of Cyclical San Diego — a diverse grassroots network of faithful innovators and church starters.   During the pandemic, Jeya has enjoyed exploring hidden places in San Diego that reveal new and wonderful things about the city that she loves. When its safe to do so, Daniel will be front and center in the moshpit at local hardcore shows."

https://www.snsociety.org S2E43 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- ----more----Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder: Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. And today we have a really wonderful opportunity for our listeners. We are interviewing Daniel strain who is executive director of the spiritual naturalist society. Daniel is a humanist minister, a speaker, and a writer on the topics of ethics, spirituality, and ancient philosophy. And he leads meditations and speaks on occasion at the Jade Buddha temple for the VA hospital meditation program and for other local groups in the Houston, Texas area. So we're really delighted to have you with us. Welcome Daniel. Yucca: Yes, welcome. Daniel: Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. Thanks.  Mark: So we thought that it would be really interesting to interview you because your approach to spirituality goes kind of beyond the, the focus area for most sort of pagan paths which tend to be ritually oriented and more around ecstatic experience, kind of trans based experience that kind of. Ritual experience rather than the contemplated meditative sorts of experiences that are also kind of another pillar of religious practice and, and practice, I guess, throughout the world. So,  Daniel: can understand that. True.  Mark: Yeah. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to spiritual naturalism and and about the society.  Daniel: Okay. Yeah, I I guess my own personal practice includes elements of both ritual and static experience. I guess I'm a little bit of a mix of a stoic, a Buddhist and a pagan. and everybody has their own little cocktail of things that works for them. And so for about, I guess since 2005, I've been you know, pretty careful a comparative study especially between Buddhism and stoicism overlaps in those two philosophies. Somewhere along the line, You know, originally I come from a conservative Christian family than in my young adult time. I, I became an atheist and humanist, secondary being involved with a lot of the humanist organizations. I'm still a human to celebrate. Conducted weddings and things like that. And I still am the humanist. But also I've found that even though I agree with the principles of humanism they're all very they're intentionally designed to be general principles. So there wasn't a lot there in  terms of you're dealing with life and living and how to live well and all that thing in a more detailed sense. So I kind of went back to philosophy, which I'd already always been interested in, but what I learned with stoicism and Buddhism is that what you are is not just about some laundry list of. For beliefs. This idea of something you put into practice that's transformation that transforms who you are and how you experienced the world and your quality of life. That was kind of foreign to me, growing up as a conservative Christian, there was this  list of things you were supposed to believe if you believe that you were saved. And then after I became a humanist, there was a different list of things you were supposed to believe to be a humanist. And they were all just lists of weeks. Not about practice. And so, oh, it's really became a true believer in all of that. And I it's still in the course. And so, I was looking for organizations out there that were based around spiritual practices. We rely on things supernatural or faith-based kind of leaves that sort of thing. I couldn't find anything at the time. So in 2012, I decided to start the spiritual naturalist society and found a lot of wonderful people from all kinds of different backgrounds and traditions. Religious in non religious that we're kind of seeing the same thing. I call it, the convergence, it's this kind of in the, the spectrum within all of these different religious and philosophical backgrounds, that's on the naturalistic. Meaning, you know, within almost every religion, you've got a spectrum of interpretation, one that's a lot more supernatural. And then one, especially emerging more recently, that's more naturalistic takes on things. And so where all of those people come together and overlap. That's what you, that's. When we start seeing a naturalistic spirituality, spirituality based. Nature is on the physical world as we understand it through the senses. And so, SNS is really about all kinds of people coming together and sharing ideas in bots, whether it's paganism. You know, naturalistic, paganism, I should say are secular Buddhism or things like Stoics, not to say that all Stokes are naturalists, but for those that are and there's even some naturalistic Christians out there. And so you've got a lot of diversity there and as far as the practices and ideas yeah. So I love talking about contemplative. And like I said, I practice both ends of that spectrum in my, in my own practice. I'm a big I, I really love going to burns, you know, like you've heard of burning man, right? well, there's a lot of smaller burns that go on the same sort of those, the same sort of community. so I go to a lot of those smaller burns around Texas and that's always a very spiritual experience for. And that includes dancing around a bonfire and music and very ecstatic kinds of things. And I often think about there were some ancient Greek philosophers who, even though they were Stokes would go to the Lucien mysteries. And yeah, so they, you know, there's there's room for both ends of that. You a single practice. Mark: Yeah, that's great. It sounds like. What, what I really like about what you're talking about is how inclusive it is of people from all different kinds of paths coming together around this central organizing principle of naturalism, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Of. know, just focusing on what we can understand about the universe and not positing supernatural forces that are kind of behind the curtain. And we, we can't see  Daniel: one important part about that is that when you come at this from the perspective of. A spiritual community or a spiritual practice. It's a totally different approach than say for example, a skeptical organization who's focused on using the principles of skepticism to critique other groups or to, you know, do things like that. And I'm not saying that there's not a role for that, especially because a lot of these faults, you know, beliefs can be harmful and, you know, organizations behind them can do harmful things and they need to be counter, you know, so that's all important work that they do a skeptic organizations and a humanist and atheist organizations that focus on criticism. But when you have, when you're doing a spiritual practice, what you do is you invert those principles of skepticism on yourself. And it becomes more like a humility. It turns into a personal spiritual practice of humility of withholding. A sense is the Herodians would say where you are mindful and aware of the assumptions that you are making in your beliefs. And that's what I like about.  Mark: Yeah.  Daniel: The reason I, you know, when I, when I first sat down to say, okay, so natural naturalist society, what's it going to be about all that? you have to decide where you're going to, how are you going to define what you're trying to do here in terms of community? What, you know, who's who's who are you? What's your target audience, I guess? And so the reason I centered on naturalism,  I've had a number of experiences going to the Unitarian Universalist church, which is a great group of people, but they're so admirable. Tolerance and their openness and diversity, there's all kinds of people at a Unitarian church. It's a wonderful thing. And I'm so glad that they exist. But when I personally eat the fellowship I find that that issue of whether a person is a naturalist or a supernaturalist. To be something that makes it very difficult to talk about any other topic, because any topic you broach, if the underlayment isn't there, then it's like you're coming from two different worlds. And we eat that topic gets diverted into whether or not there's a supernatural, whether or not there's a, how, what we base our beliefs on how we get our beliefs. All of that becomes a huge distraction, any particular topic that you want to talk about? So part of that, that fellowship to me it stops being work and starts being fellowship. When we have at least some shared basis of reality, you know, that we can talk about. So that was an important part. But other than that, it's, it pretty much just assumes a naturalism. So like one of our standards in our articles that we publish, we don't write articles about why you should be a naturalist or why that as reason and evidence are good and faith based beliefs are unsound. You know, we don't make those kinds of arguments. It's for naturalists.  So we assume we're talking to them and they say, okay, what now? It's like, okay, there's the natural world. Adam's in the void physics. Now, what, how do you live your life?  Yucca: So I think a lot of our viewers are, are familiar with naturalism. There are a couple of terms that you used in your own story that people might've heard of, but aren't really familiar with what they mean. So specifically humanism and being a stoic. Can you talk about what that means?  Daniel: Giving me that opportunity, because that's a great point that stoicism is a generic word or general word in our language today. And usually when people use it, they mean it in a very different sense than the school, the ancient school of stoic philosophy. So they're probably already thinking something like Mr. Spock or somebody who's not emotional that sort of thing.  Yucca: Statue like. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. But Stoics would laugh and have jokes and smile and all that stuff. Ancient stoicism. Wasn't kind of, you know, the word is distorted in different than that, but ancient stoicism was more about having healthy emotions. So, there are healthy emotions and then there's unhelpful or unhealthy emotions. It's kind of like, the same distinction has make today. For example, when people are breathing, there's a healthy, grieving process. That someone might go through, for example, but then there's also forms of grieving that can lead problems that people then need to cope with and deal with and work through. And so this distinction between when you're having  a healthy or an unhealthy kind of emotion and where those, where those emotions come from and what kinds of judgments we are making. Even if there subconscious judgments at first or microscopic judgments that we make that are affecting the way we look at the world, our framing of things and that perspective and how we look. Will then dictate whether or not our emotional responses are aligned with reality or whether there there's some kind of misalignment there which causes what the Stokes called Pappas. So that's the idea is having a healthy, emotional life in the ways that we can do that. But that's assuming that of course. people aren't in need of a more drastic intervention, you know, there's a place for you know, more modern terms of ways of dealing with depression, things like that. Of course, too. But I people often, really, this is something about contemplative practice in general is extremely powerful. And that can be a good or bad thing. It's like, I tell people it's like opening up the back panel on yourself and voiding your warranty. You are messing with, you know, the operating system. And, so when you do these contemplative practices, you better be sure that you're doing you're, you're practicing something. That's right. That's held healthy is starting to work for you and is in, you're not going down some road of programming yourself in a bad way or an unhelpful way. And that's what spiritual community is for. So we can all kind of like eating off of one another find balance and in getting input from it. Mark: That's a really good point because you know, one of the things that people ask me as, as as an atheopagan, as a naturalistic pagan, one of the things that people ask me in some cases is, well, what's the point. If there aren't any gods, then what are you doing? All this stuff for? And, and I mean, I had to sit with that question for a while, as I was framing the atheopagan path. And what I concluded was well it's to be happy to have a joyous life and to be effective in the world in a positive manner in to, to help the world be a better place. And that's really all that's, that's all that I could come up with in terms of what the goal is. And so, as you say, the. You know, both the contemplated practices and the ritual practices can be very psychologically influential. They can, they can transform us. Right. So it's pretty important that you have wellbeing and health and kind values and all that kind of stuff at the root of your motivation for doing that so that you don't, as you say, mess up the operating system.  Daniel: Yeah. And I find that the, the con the contemplative arts of practice. Help my extent, parts of my practice,  because most of the time when I've had a ecstatic ritual kind of experience that was most impactful to me and transformative. If I look back on it, I have to realize that I was prepared for that in that moment, because I had. Already cultivated a certain set of perspectives or understandings, or had prepared my mental awareness in such a way where when the ecstatic experience happens in the moment, the way I paid attention to it or digested, it was affected by the contemplation of these concepts before you know, you've, we've all been to something where we're just like moved and transformed and you look over at the person next to you and you're just looking at their phone or, you know, it's like, they're not in the same place you are. And so these, these moments of, of static ritual and transformation are they they're gifts that come to. Because of the coming together of a lot of factors, just the right time and just the right way. And so contemplation can be an underlying that helps kind of set the stage in your mind for where those so that you're receptive and that you're interpreting them and valuing certain rights and understanding, you know, when, when I go to burn Springs, Whenever they're burning the effigy last night. I always look to my sides as well, but look at the other people, see what them watching the buyer. And you can always tell that there are certain people there that are going through experience. And then other people they're just at a party for them. It's just a party and that's fine too. It's okay to just go to a party, but there's something that goes on in your mindset that sets up your mindfulness and sets up your first of all, just your basic knowledge and awareness of concepts and principles and how they relate to. And symbolism in of symbolism. You know, my earliest experience of ritual was not that my earliest experience of ritual was going to a Baptist church and just sitting there and kind of like doing what I'm supposed to do, waiting through the process so we can get out of there. And then even when I was pursuing these kinds of things and I went to the Unitarian church, Things they were doing still felt like empty theater, empty theater. So I  can just doing these motions and it's like, Yeah. this means that I understand this is a symbol of that. I like the candle and it doesn't really. And today when I light incense, before I meditate or I light a candle or a bow at the Buddha temple it is a completely different than it was because I have found the right symbols for me. And the symbols that mean the right things that I am moved by, in once pursue and are ready for. And so when I do that back when I entered Jade Buddha temple, the meditation hall, I bow to the statute at the front, but the bowing is in material. What's important is what's going on in my mind as I, and. Doing that physical action is a thing to make it real to your mind. It connects the external with the internal. So as I do that bow on imagining that I'm putting a leaving behind all the other distractions I had outside the temple door. I'm clearing my mind, let me clear a table and bringing all of my focus on the why there and that if I just went in and that bowed while I was looking at my phone about would be superfluous irrelevant. And that's something that we naturalists are especially should be attuned to because, you know, if, if you thought that there would be. Magical invisible being. Who's watching to make sure you bow out and if you bow, they were happy, you didn't bow, then they're unhappy. That's an external thing. So yeah. Now that's how the bowing becomes important. Well, I went to church, I made Jesus happy. So, you know, but that's meaningless to a nationalist. It's meaningless to naturalistic. Spirituality is only if there is something internal happening that.  Yucca: And so that contemplated practices is one of the ways that you find what that bow means to you?  Daniel: Yeah. I would say, you know, at the most rudimentary, basic starting point is just one of your practices is, you know, reading, taking in new information and I've found even going back and reading. Because I'll read a book that's transformative to me at the time. And I'm like, wow, it's really opens in my mind. And then I'll feel like while I read that, I know that stuff. No, but after a year or two, if you go back and you reread it, it helps you get it more in your mind. So that's the first, most rudimentary level is just taking in the information. Then there's this whole other thing about Mindfulness. We hear mindfulness has become so trendy. Now this is all mindfulness concept. You just think of it like, oh, it's like Moda or go into some yoga class or something, but really it's about everything moments. It's like. So here's an example of, of, you might notice that if you talk to Stoics or. So at practice or you see Stoics that they are, they do seem to be more even keel. I mean, if they're practicing and they're doing okay in practice that  now there'll be more even killed in jail. Not that they're going to be perfect, but what's going on. There is not, I always tell people if you're trying to control or suppress an emotion or anything. Even if it's been identified by stoic philosophy is something that's unhelpful. If you're trying to con deny suppress anything like that, that's unhealthy.  Yucca: It gives it more power in you. Right. If you're trying to fight against it. Daniel: Right.  Is always about paying atttenion. Accepting and seeing and not denying, not looking away, not suppressing. Right. So, instead what contemplative practice is about, it's about a slower longer term transformation of the way you look at the world. So that. Well, I would say the intellectual part is about changing the way you look at the world so that when things arise, the things that make you angry or make you worry or make you sad are not the same things that they used to be. So it's not a question of fighting an emotion. It's just a question of bringing yourself into alignment with no one with the force or one with natures, Stokes would say, you know, if you are in alignment, True beauty, goodness, nature, reality, the Dow, whatever you want to call it the way of things. If you were in alignment with the way that the natural emotions that emerge from that kind of being, or that kind of person who's liked, that will tend to be productive. I can give you. an example if you want.  Yucca: Hmm. Daniel: That's stoicism, the stoic scheme has a lot to do with framing right. Right now in modern day times there's things called like neuro-linguistic programming stuff. Cognitive behavioral therapy was highly influenced by stoicism. And I'm talking about, about stoicism here, but I'll bring this out to more general terms a little bit, but stoicism So in this framing, they give labels to things, things that are common words, but in stoicism, they have very specific meanings. So for example, there's a difference between a concern in fear. So in stoicism fear, and it's not just a difference of degree, it's a different kind of psychological mechanism that brings about these two. So, and it has to do with stimulus and response. So we get a stimulus and then we have an emotional response. And a lot of times people will say things like that person makes me so mad, but nobody makes you mad. What happens is that do something. And then between stimulus and response is this judgment, this judgment nexus, this little microscopic judgment, subconscious judgment, or sometimes. that judgment says, this is a thing to get mad about. And then the responses you get mad. So what you have to do is examine those judgements. And so say that half those unhealthy emotion comes from false judgements and you pat, they are healthy. Emotions comes from true judge. And so there's some kind of fault stood in judgment. Like the most obvious one is that, Hey, this person has done this thing. If I get really internally worked up and angry and  upset, that will be a good response that will help this not to happen anymore or solve the. And obviously it's not, you can do all kinds of external things. You can go tell the person, Hey, you need to do something different, blah, blah, blah. But none of those external things you can do and should do require your  eternal strife know. So that's a false judgment, so fear and you could say worry as well. Fear in concern, concern is the true judgment that I need to pay attention to this so that I could do X, Y, Z. It has a productivity to. You go from a, to B, to C to D and then you've done that mental activity. You come to your conclusion, you take your action in and you're done fear or worry is you've made a judgment that you need to do some sort of internal activity, but there's nowhere for it to go. It doesn't do. You're waiting on your test results. You won't get  till Monday. So what do you need to think about, you know,  so the wheels just turn round and round and brown and there's this repetitiveness to it. So that kind of way of dealing with things, that's the kind of things that bring you into alignment with the truth. And as you come into alignment with true, the slow process is that things get easier. Life gets  more joyful, more equitably entity. Patients more more joy. So, That's generally what a contemplative type about, even if it's not stoicism, Buddhism has similar sorts practices. Mark: That's great. Let's that's that's a really good explanation. Thank you. I thought it was really interesting. And maybe this is just coincidental, but as you were listing the things to be in alignment with three, they were three, they included three of the four sacred pillars of atheopagan is beauty truth life, meaning the biosphere in nature, right. The world. And then the last one is. You know, to be in alignment with those kinds of values is, is what we consider sacred. So, it seems like there are, there are lots of, there's lots of overlap of these various different schools of thought and, and traditions that are all kind of pointed in the same direction in many ways.  Daniel: Yeah. the perennial path is called. You'll see that there's a similarity of path of a path of enlightenment, whatever you want to call it, some kind of progress would make it. As we do our practice. And what I, what I imagine is that these different traditions that basically just place their signposts, that different points on one path, the same path, but  it's it's what they emphasize and what they don't emphasize as much is a little different. But when you overlay them all, you see the current, all lining up bones and path. and so I look for those common traits between them. Where do they overlap? Where, where are these ideas kind of like, and it's kind of a complex endeavor because of language, culture, barriers, time barriers, and you have to say, well, this idea of sounds like they're saying the opposite thing, but really that's because the scholars in the 1950s chose that word to translate this concept and they chose this word to translate that. And so now when we just use our colloquial, meaning of these words, it looks like they're saying the opposite thing. Really they're saying. There's all kinds of the slew thing you have to do to kind of get past all that, to get to the concepts. But those I'm glad you mentioned about though, because compassion is is another great example. The contemplative connects with the status. So, for me, I I've always, I was, I started out as one of my handicaps coming into this was that I was always a very analytical person, very sciency, like a lot of humanists, like a lot of secondary humans, you know? And so I didn't really understand intuitive subjects. Kinds of things or the importance of the subjective. I kind of thought, Well, what matters is facts, evidence in what people do, you know, are things like that. But things like the subjective are so important that they make the difference between say two wealthy executives with all of this power. Luxury and their lives. And one of them jumps out of a building. That that's the difference. I mean, that's the, that just goes to show that external circumstances are not, or take the opposite, exit two people in a prison camp or in a you know, terrible hostage situations. And one of them is brushed and the other one is. That there's something else that's going on internally between different people and studying what that is, is a worthy thing, but we're coming back to compassion real quick. So, Thomas Merton, who he was a Trappist monk. He, he was a Christian monk who in the this by the sixties was having these dialogues across the east west divide, you know, across with Eastern monks and everything. They were comparing their ideas. Talking about that really opened up that dialogue. And Thomas Merton said that compassion is the keen awareness of the interconnectedness of all. so in Buddhism, you've got, you know, context of concepts of interdependence, interconnectedness this things as a network, everything like they call it dependent, origination. Everything is interrelated to everything else. Because of the interconnect. And so the whole point of a template of practice, no point of a spiritual practice room, because it includes the function. The whole point of all of that is to say, we hear an idea like that and we think, oh Yeah. everything's interconnected. Great. Sounds good. That's intellectual ascent. Intellectual ascent is not. 'cause we, we know it. We think we know it. We agree to it. And we say, we agree to it. But when push comes to shove, we don't actually live that way. We don't actually respond moment to moment. You know, most people's experience with spirituality is there's the inspirational poster and this cool sounding piece of wisdom over a sunset. And they posted on their wall. Virtual wall and then hanging  on the physical wall and they look at it and use it as a reminder. And then they go off and they get angry, they get upset, they do foolish things. They get consumed by whatever. And then that later they come back, they read the poster and then they breathe and they remind themselves and they try to like, you know, pull themselves back to the wisdom. That's what not having a spiritual practices. So when you don't have it, what you'll do is you're continuously be agreeing with something intellectually, but it's not what you are. It's not who you are. It's not your actual nature. And so what spiritual practice is about is taking the intellectual in a. Getting it down deep, you know, making it more and more becoming more and more deeply aware with it on an intuitive level on a, like the way you catch yourself when you fall. Like that is how you look at it deep down. And so when you really take those pieces of great wisdom and you really internalized it, so interconnectedness of all things. The more that becomes, seen, felt that that's the difference between a person who has drawing on a chalkboard and doing calculations about wave harmonics and a surfer. So the surfer is not thinking about the physics of waves, the surfer. Feeling the ways the surfer has a dancing relationship with the waves. They know intuitively what to do next. They don't even have to be in there. And so what we got to do if we really want to transform to be in alignment with truth and alignment, nature is we have experiences that make things real to us. And that's just like life, right? That's why you can't sit down a young person. Yeah, I have an old wise person sit down a young person and then just tell him, just tell me what you experienced. And then there'll be a young wise person. It doesn't happen. They have to go through the experience. And so if the experiences of our life transforming us, that's like, it's kind of like a natural selection in a way, your, your, your, your S your soul, your, your being, your spirit of who you are. He is shaped and molded by experience, in in just kind of a natural way, whatever you experience is going to shake. Well, practice is basically like artificial selection. It's it's saying, okay, we're going to create experiences for ourselves that will transform us in consciously directed way. Rather than just open to get transformed, however, whatever, without being mindful of thinking. And so, taking that interconnectedness of all things and through various practices and rituals. Making it real to us changes our personality changes the way we respond to things as they happen. When that happens, then we really know, then we grasp it. The rocket it's becomes actually the way we intuitively react to the world. And when that happens, then things that are called compassion, love, forgiveness, kindness. They kind of become like these kindergarten labels and really it's all just sanity. It's just, that's what a sane person does because they see the truth of the situation. You  Mark: Hmm.  Daniel: not to say that I'm there for Sure. Or that any of us are perfectly there, but it's something we can make progress on as we work on it.  And we can get the fruit fruits, which is a joy and happiness that comes from that kind of so, so really what you're talking about with contemplative practices and. Ecstatic practices, two words we've been using. They're all, they're all kind of the same thing. They're just different kinds of experiences that touch different parts of our mind  and our minds are all interconnected. So you want things that are going to engage the intellectual part, the intuitive part, the emotional part, the social part, the left and Right. brain. You know, you want all kinds of different multimedia kinds of experiences. And so, the emotion burns it in there, you know,  but these same things happen in cults and they happen in white nationalist movements and all kinds of things like that. Which is why the knowledge in sharing in community across education is important because that's why it's dangerous to open that back then. Because somebody could just as easily become the wrong things, get distilled down to a  Mark: Yeah, really hateful and angry. Daniel: So, I look at compassion is the foundation of all practice, because if you don't understand that interconnectedness of all things, all the other teachings kind of arise out of that.  Contemplative stuff we'll help you with like contemplative stuff, I guess. I mean like something like meditation, for example, will help you to open up that gap between the the stimulus and the response, widen it out so that you can see what's going on. And so that you can become more aware as you sense things arising in your life. Which were subconscious before are really quick. Before now they're slowed down and you can see them arising and be aware of those judgments you're making so that you can examine. So that's what mindfulness does. And so meditation, especially something like a breathing meditation that gets you to practice focusing and stilling the rest of the mind. They would like to still your mind like that and bring all your focus to one. There's a powerful tool that you can then use on every other spiritual practice.  And then later when you're doing ecstatic stuff, you can use that focus and all that's going on is that you're not worried about your laundry or any of that stuff going on. and you can also use it to be more aware of others in more, you know, attention of relationships. To me. It's all one. It's all interconnected. Right? Mark: Huh? Well, that's yeah, I, I so agree with, with everything that you've said. It's the, I mean, having a pair of being open to the prospect of evolving is something. It seems to me a healthy human must gravitate towards. And it's something that in our mainstream society, we aren't really encouraged to grow. We aren't encouraged to become wiser. We're encouraged to acquire products and achievements and to get there whatever there is, whether it's the American dream house, car, family, or mother, whether it's You know, attainment of the height of your career, whatever it is, but the idea that there, that it just goes on and on, and that it's still an unfinished work when you die and you have to make peace with that is something that is not really discussed in our mainstream society very much. Really, really chews away at the underpinnings of capitalism, frankly. It, it changes people's priorities, but I, I really like the way you talk about the contemplate of meditative practices. Creating a, an enhanced capacity to really take in the ecstatic experience through heightened focus. I think that's really true. I mean, my contemplated practices tend to be more around Using tarot cards to sort of meditate on the symbology kind of go through an internal process that way. but I do see how I use that focus that I've learned in grounding myself and getting into the present moment in other kind of peak experiences that I have.  Daniel: Yeah, kind of the difference between you know, if you think about this, a path to greater enlightenment, I'll say greater than that, because there's not one point where you just  Mark: Right.  Daniel: this, this progressive path that we're hopefully on our backs. As we go like that, a lot of the contemplative practices have the characteristic of a slow, steady increase over time, you know, as you stay consistent with your practice that, you know, you've seen improvements. But then there are these moments of. That are these. And oftentimes they come with peak experience or sometimes an altered experience, or sometimes just sitting and reading and something  clicks in a way that it hasn't ever before. And you're just like, oh wow, it's changed my life. You know, but these little lock, the line is gone from a 45 degree upward slant to a little jump feet, you know, and, and suddenly. A major door was cross route. So a lot of times our ecstatic students is can, can bring them back those kinds of things, but I'll say they come about in a lot of different ways. Need static experiences for me help, really do help to empower moving things from the, the, just the intellectual part of my brain to the whole part of my brain, to everything. The emotional and sensual and all of that with one system. That's what that really helps to, to and not to mention just also you just release of, of your energies and your kind of getting into the lower things. I wrote an article one time about a drum drum sets. Spiritual drumming, but from circles and how, when you are drumming in a drum circle, if you think like, okay, now it's the time to hit the drum. You're already too late. You missed your chance. And so you have to get into this way of thinking that is or this way of not thinking this way of, of being. That is more automatic. And in, in the east there, martial arts are the same way. Like you get to this point, you're not thinking about it anymore. You're just you know, you're like a Puma on the hunt. They're not thinking about anything else. It's just a direct low of input to output in the body, in the environment one. And so that's kind of how. A loving person, a kind person can get to a point where something happens and the gunman injures, they throw their body over the other person. Not because they thought about it. Not because they pulled out you know, categorical imperative on ethics and then thought about who has the obligations here? Who has the rights here? You know, none of that stuff came up. They live as a, as a loving being. And so they act as a mother and being that oneness and non-duality is inherent to the national Institute. Yucca: So one of the things that you've mentioned several times is steps that people can be taking is to be learning, to be reading, always bringing more information in. A re there particular resources that you would suggest to people or invite that they look into? Daniel: Kind of mixed feelings about it. Cause you know, I, like I said, I have my personal top tail of things and I'm happy to share that, but I want to also make clear that there's lots of worthy wisdom out there. And that I still have yet to discover. I have found you know, I mentioned Buddhism and stoicism Taoism is, is great to ancient Greek thought in general from the axial age the Socratic schools, you know, they all have some great stuff in them. What I love about ancient philosophy is that they're dealing with things about how to live well. And, and by the way, when they say the good life, they don't. Hot tubs and the, the good in terms of good virtue, but also really good in terms of good quality life, too, because to them it's the same thing. But anyway, they focus more on that. Whereas later philosophy started maybe building on that or going beyond that, but what happened. It gets into? political theory and social theory and, and those are all interesting things in everything. They don't talk about the operating system. Yeah. They don't talk about, you know, this is, this is how we live in all that stuff that came up with it's still relevant. And what's really interesting is that the, the silk road, this, path of trade that opened up Up until about, I think the third century AD between Greece in Southeast Asia and that caused a lot of interaction between east and west. So that's why find parallels between Buddhism and puritanism stoicism. At least that's one theories, but some of them are incredibly striking somewhere, but still have lots of differences too. So I think the most important thing is that you find things that you connect with that that really, it shouldn't be a chore. It should be more like an exploration discovery, and sometimes things that seem silly. If you realize I only like this because I really liked that kind of music they do. And I guess cool or something like that can be a great doorway, you know? And then you can learn something more substantive than that later, but if you're enthused enthused about it, that can be a good way to. You know, you have to, it's like the surfer we have to feel what is right for you? Is this a truck or is it like, you know, Basler, we can not wait to get back to it. And it's for more that that's going to be part of the answer.  Yucca: Mm. Mark: Yeah. But that makes a lot of sense. And, and one of the other things that you've talked about is is the importance of mindfulness. And we, we kind of harp on the idea of paying attention on this podcast. The, you know, the idea of, you know, living in relationship with the world. And so being aware of what's happening and not sleepwalking through our lives. So, I think that that's a really important piece because people will then be able to see what it is that really excites them by, by just tracking what they notice and what they find really stimulating and exciting. They'll, they'll get clues as to what sorts of things will help them along their way. Daniel: Yeah. That's, what's great. That, you know, thinking this you know, this idea of seeing the signs those kind of ancient ideas like that, you know, it's not that what the important part is, what the, what the. What stuck with you? What notice, what did you notice that and why did you notice it? Even something that taking the random pages out of the doubt that chain and, you know, the randomness of it  is one thing, but what, when you, when it makes that impression on you, what, what are you, what are you get out of that, you know, what do you see from that? What that. How you something about yourself, or even when you're trying to meditate, you say, I'm going to focus on the breath and you start focusing on the breath and then all this other stuff starts coming up rather than getting frustrated with it. You just stay patient and set aside for your attention back to the breath. And then afterwards you're like, wow, I can't believe that stuff came up. It tells you something about your subconscious, what was on your mind?  Mark: Right. And so much of what all this is about is getting access to our subconscious, you know, getting, finding a way to pull the carpet up a little bit and see what's underneath and, you know, figure out what our base assumptions are, what our fundamental fears and aspirations are. And then, you know, working to evolve those in ways that are healthy for us and, and help us to build contentment.  Daniel: Yeah, in Buddhism, they call them defilements and stoicism, they call it misjudgments. So, but all of these little things that are in there that understanding more about ourselves, you know, self knowledge,  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: and also what's interesting about self knowledge is. It's it needs it in the conventional sense, but it also means knowledge of what is itself  and, in starches. And there's this concept of expanding the sense of self it's called, this is the word, but what it means is like expansion of, if you imagine a concentric rings like a tart, but target is a dark space in the center itself. And then around that is. Family and around that as brands run as community, all beings and the cosmos, the Stoics created the word cosmopolitan. What it meant originally was this was in the area era of the city state here, people would ask, are you an Athenian or Spartan? And they would say, I'm a citizen of the cosmos. that, that was their citizenship.  Mark: nice. That's wonderful. Daniel: their city state was. And so, expanding the sense of self and in Buddhism there's concept of no self. But what that does is it tells you that that's the way we think of self is this solid unchanging, permanent thing is illusory that that doesn't exist. So what that does is it frees us up to say, well, we can decide what we want to do. And that's transcendence when your, your seat of identity starts to move up and beyond. Out of that. Those are brain up higher to connect with associated itself with the larger community Alondra.  Yucca: Hm. Mark: Yucca. I don't know where we are for time, but I'd really like, Daniel for you to let us know how we can access the spiritual naturalist society. And and thank you so much for joining us today. It's really been a pleasure to talk with you. Daniel: Great. Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here. Yeah, the it's S in society.org, the spiritual interrupts society. And you know, there's articles we publish every week. We have podcasts there's two or three seasons of podcasts on, see, if you want to join and become a member, there's different kinds. You can do a free member are supporting mentorship. You get a newsletter. And also if anybody has their own programs,  or podcasts, or things like that that relate to naturalistic forms of spirituality. And you want us to share announcements with our members? Please let us know. We're happy to you. know, partner with all other kinds of organizations in this, this  Mark: That's great. That's great. Thank you so much. Yucca: Thank you, Daniel. Daniel: Thank you y'all have a great day. Mark: You too. 

In this episode, I have a guest who discusses nutritional AI that you can eat. Grant Everybody, this is Grant Larsen. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI radio. Wow. Today I have in the house with me. Mr. Daniel DeMillard, he is the CTO of FoodSpace, and I am just honored for the opportunity to meet him and to get to hear his story and what he and his organization has been doing with AI. Alright, let's jump into this. Okay, so, Daniel, first of all, welcome. Daniel Thanks for having me, Grant. Great to be here. Grant It is, it is really great to have you here and to have another another patriots in AI, right things that you guys are doing, as I got to know you. And before we started this recording, I was fascinated with the kind of work that you guys are doing and where you focus your use and application of AI. But before we get too deep into that, would you step back in time and tell us? Who's Daniel, where do you come from? And what is it that's brought you to this point to be CTO applying AI in such a cool way? Daniel Yep, so I actually studied economics and finance in school and came across an online class by Andrew Yang on Coursera. And at that point, I just absolutely fell in love with machine learning and artificial intelligence. And I was like, wow, this is absolutely what I'm wanting. Yeah, with my life. So, you know, started studying a lot. Got a job eventually at IBM Watson, and worked at a small company doing what type classification, then I was doing some consulting on the side, where I actually got connected with iosshare, Nike, the CEO of foods, but at the time, it was a lunchbox. And they were developing a consumer facing app that, you know, they were trying to pair people with recipes. And you could set up a diet profile for yourself, and instantly order things online through instacart, based on recipes that you find. And I initially got engaged with them, building a wine pairing recommendation application, where, given a certain recipe will automatically recommend a wine pairing that would go well, really well I Grant ...need that certain kind of food, you're like, Hey, this is the right, right, Daniel ...we're gonna wanna medium red wine with that right or a very sweet dessert wine. Grant Until it this where lunchbox started, they were focusing on solving that problem. Daniel They were focused on solving the one stop shop for keeping all of your recipes together, ordering food very easily. And then also being able to manage your diets, and allergens, and just make making sure all of that was really seamless. And they also had a great mission of trying to mitigate food waste, so that they could recommend given all of the stuff that you have in your fridge that would normally sit there and forget about they could recommend a recipe and for you to make of the things that you've already selected. And so Grant all right, very good. All right. So so then you bumped into them, and you started to work with them. Tell us a little bit about the transition over to food space. How did the vision change? Daniel Yeah, it was actually pretty serendipitous, and rather abrupt. So back in 2019, io was a part of grocery shop, which is a big conference in the CPG space and food industry. And he's trying to pitch this idea of lunchbox to brands and retailers to get them to sign up for it. And they all have basically kept telling them the same thing of like, hey, it's a great idea. It's super interesting. I would love to but what you're asking for with all of these like dietary profiles, and The information necessary to build these types of recommendation algorithms. It's we just don't have it, we don't have ingredients and digitized nutrition labels. And, you know, we have the very minimum. So given that that information is like, Okay, well, we've got to take a step back. So he calls me up. And he says, you know, hey, Daniel, would it be possible given a bunch of computer or a bunch of e commerce images, to extract the product information from there and actually read it from those images. And I had done a little bit of stuff with computer vision by that point, using, like pre trained, convolutional neural net models on image net, and then using transfer learning to identify key regions. And so I stopped and thought about it. And I was like, yeah, you know, I think the problem is tractable enough. And the technology's in such place, now that we can absolutely solve this problem. And so yeah, two years later, we now have a model that can classify things that matter of seconds. And we're gonna extract that product information and seconds with 99.7% accuracy 99.7. So if I bring I can assume to you, and you can see the label on it, you can figure out what this is, you can identify it. Exactly. So we'll extract things like brand name, product, name, net weight, the ingredients, the nutrition label, any certifications, such as whether or not it's recycled, kosher, non GMO, vegan, all of that awesome stuff, including marketing claims, like low sodium or, you know, contains less sugar, those those types of things, well, pull out all of the relevant information from the product label. And we'll read it in the same way that a person would read it. A lot of other products that do something similar or are entirely based on the universal Product Code code, the UPC barcode on the back, where they're basically just looking things up from a database, a database might have inaccurate information, it might be out of date, so might have been accurate at one point, it might have been transmis, transcribe with whoever transcribed it in the first place, we're gonna read that label and not image, the same way that a human would label it so that it's, we're going to the ground truth. Grant So PC based, you're actually extracting the actual text, you're figuring out what this is, and then the semantics of it. What does that mean? Oh, it means this ingredient, this so much in the, you know, in terms of the amount of the ingredient, and so forth. Daniel Exactly. And then we will also derive new information from that information that we've extracted, such as whether or not it's going to be had certain allergens. If it contains peanuts, we're going to let you know if it has a peanut allergy. We're also going to determine whether or not it conforms to different diets. So I'm a vegetarian. And I'm constantly reading labels for obscure things like whether or not my cheese contains rennet in it, which is a animal derived enzyme. So we will read all of that for you, and then derive whether or not it's going to correspond with with your diet. Grant So can you talk about some of the use cases around this? So are you targeting b2b scenarios? Are you doing b2c? Is that something that I as an end consumer comes in interacts with it, let's say through through my cell phone? or How are you? How are people going to consume this this cool platform? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are primarily focused on optimizing the e commerce experience. So if you're on Walmart, or Albertsons or target, and you are using your favorite grocery delivery app, or you're going in to do pickup, all of that purchasing decisions are happening upfront on the e commerce website. And at the very least, we want to make sure that that information is present and accurate so that you can make the decisions yourself whether or not at the very least, you can see that ingredients label and search to see if that rennet in gradient is there, or if you're trying to, you know bulk up make sure that it has enough protein or has low sugar, low fat, whatever your dietary needs are. We want to make sure that information is there. But we really want to enable a more optimized ecommerce experiences where you know in your little left side of the toolbar, you can select vegetarian or pescatarian or low sodium diet or a South Beach diet, or I'm allergic to shellfish, and automatically only be shown products that correspond to your dietary needs. So we really think that optimizing that e commerce experience and the search is where we can have the largest impact right away. Grant So So some of the health profile of the person intersects with this, is it coming off? Like, I don't know, like, like the fitness app? Or is it coming off of other sort of apps? And then are capturing that health information? How do you integrate with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are basically providing the data to the retailer so that they can make those optimizations. But certainly being able to integrate with, you know, My Fitness Pal, or Weight Watchers would help optimize these experiences. And we are in discussions with those types of companies as well to improve their databases. So that you aren't, you don't have to manually type in all of that information on your fitness app, you can basically just look it up in the database, and it's accurate and recent. One problem that we've seen is that 30% or so of data is of grocery products are updated every year. So anyone I think use one of these apps has the experience of typing in their information, finding out finding the correct product, but it's a little bit outdated, the calories are a little off the nutrient profiles a little bit off, we're gonna make sure that it's updated. And in the right place. Grant That's interesting. So you talked about accuracy, the model accuracy for AI? And I think you should say 97%. Right. 99.7. Daniel Yeah, we are absolutely religious about that is, wow, you know, that is the problem that we're trying to solve. Right now, if you look up any product, on, say, a large, very large e commerce website, like walmart.com, there is a somewhere between 40 and 70% chance that there is at least one mistake on that website, regarding just the ingredients and nutrition information. So if you're trying to base you know, your health profile on that, it's it's an inaccurate, so we are just absolutely religious about getting every single piece of information. Correct, at least as so far as it corresponds to the product images. Grant So is this is this just for humans? Or is this also food for animals and pets? And how does this work? Daniel Yep, so we've definitely just, we started with humans, we are expanding to pet food and being able to build attributes around that two things like wet versus dry pet food, whether it's for a large size dog, or a small size dog. And all of those attributes we're hoping will also assist in that product search and discoverability so that you're not being shown a dog food, that's, you know, too too big for your small small dogs. Right. Grant Right. Right. Okay. All right, that makes sense. And then in terms of what we're talking about, who it's relevant to terms, your current market, so it's for humans, obviously, animals in the future. But as we think about the humans, this English base, is it other languages, Spanish or Mandarin or others? Where are you in terms of multilingual? Daniel Yep. So, you know, food is, I think, sacred to everyone everywhere. And as we move from this, in store grocery experience, where you're, you have the product in front of you, you can pick it up, and you can read the label to an e commerce experience, where somebody might just be dropping that off to your doorstep, and you don't see the product until it's there. We really think it's important that we have as larger reach as possible. So we definitely are working on expanding our algorithms to apply to different regulatory regulatory environments. You know, Europe has, I think, 12 allergens, whereas the united states currently has nine, and they just added sesame, to their allergens. They also have different nutrition labels and different information that they require to be on those. And then in addition to that, the different languages that are actually present there, and all of that obviously presents different technological issues, custom models for each of those markets, but really what we've spent a lot of time Building and working on is creating models that can quickly adapt to these new domains and building a really robust training pipeline. So that basically all we have to do is collect more data, instill a little bit of domain expertise, where we have to learn a little bit about that new market or that language. But after that, we can adapt our models very quickly to that new. Grant You know, I just have to ask, given that I love the AI piece of this, as well as just the benefit that you're bringing to human family. I mean, that's, that's huge. When I think about the AI portion of this, I think, how, how was building that model? I mean, how you have a lot of cans in your food storage now. I mean, how much? How many boxes of Cheerios did you buy? I mean, that's amazing. How did you get through all that? That's just that, right? There is a big challenge, right? To get through enough instances? Daniel Yeah, um, I Oh, and Dan, my business partners, they spent a lot of time getting kicked out of grocery stores, because they kept picking out prod products and taking pictures with their phones. And so they were kicked out of a few grocery stores, I think they learned to, you know, explain what, what they were doing their first after a little bit, but certainly a lot of time, taking pictures of your entire pantry. Going around the grocery store, just pick it up as many random things as possible. That's creative. Grant Yeah, that's, that's really great. If you have any particular challenges in terms of the kinds of food and other words, some things don't have labels, right. So certainly asparagus typically right or decent, things like that. So how do you deal with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So currently, we only support branded foods. So it does need to have that product label. But it's interesting that you should mention certain types of foods, we were doing a analysis an audit of our accuracy. And we were noticing that a certain product category, yogurt, in particular, was creating a lot of issues for us and was very low accuracy. And it turned out that the curvature of the yogurt container, and then the fact that it kind of tapers down, creating a lot of issues for OCR model, where the text is kind of getting bunched up at the edges of that, you know, yogurt container. So we actually had to like build a specific model just to handle those types of containers. So certainly, you know, a lot of our time and effort has been focused on the corner cases in those weird scenarios where that are particularly difficult. The like, very simple run of the mill cereal box, where it's a nice rectangular box and the nutrition labels very prominent. And it's a very usual format that's easier to solve that most of our time has been focused on these weird one offs, like these tobert, tapered yogurt containers. Grant So so let me think about because I love the, again, this problem that you're solving and how it benefits people and their dietary needs. When I think about how people can consume this, what's the way that they will be able to interact with this standard? And what's the state of what space is doing today? Is it? Is it out there ready to be used? Or Where are you guys? Daniel Yeah, we're currently working with brands to get their data to the retailers and some retailers are a little bit further along than others and optimizing the, you know, experience for you where you can set up those dietary profiles for yourself and only be shown the products that correspond to your values, or do you only want organic food or you have a gluten intolerance, only being charged on those foods that correspond with those values or dietary needs to just getting the product information out there to the retailers in the first place. We're also working with some initial engagements with smart appliance manufacturers, things like smart fridges and smart micro microwaves, where you can simply scan the product, either using the barcode or just the front of the product and instantly have your oven or your microwave set the time timer or the temperature for you to cook that product for you. Additionally, being able to do things like recipe planning based on the products that you have in your fridge, being able to order products from I'm a retailer directly using the feature on your fridge that is based on your dietary profiles and just you never needed to get on your computer. And you could just order, you know, your gluten free pizza directly from your smart fridge that is linked to a product database with information that we're providing, we really think that more and more people are going more and more of our purchasing Our food is going to happen in this virtual digitized space, whether that's through your computer, your smart fridge, and the more that information is available, the more that we can build a more customized experience, and really make shopping easier as well, so that you aren't ever being shown products that don't correspond to your dietary dietary needs or your values. You know, even being able to set timers and things for microwave, it might sound trivial, but it really should make the entire cooking, cooking experience that easier for you. Grant You know, I certainly could benefit from walking up to the fridge and say, what are the possibilities of what I can create from what's in there, my wife will do that she's got that AI model already in her head, but I don't have that model, same set of food and go, there's nothing in there. And then she can craft you know, miracles out of it. Daniel So yeah, I'm the exact same way. And, you know, you could you can set user profiles for everyone in your family and say, Hey, you know, I'm a pescetarian. And my daughter's gluten intolerant and my son really only it's organic food, and being able to mix and match all of those constraints, we can figure out what recipe and you know, what to eat for dinner, right? Grant And so it sounds like, like, like, we've done that, that South Beach diet multiple times. Sounds like you know, you can literally walk up to your, to your fridge at some point and say, Hey, what is it that I can make that is in compliance with the South Beach diet? Daniel Exactly. And then things like, you know, macros counting, like calorie counting, and counting how much protein that you're consuming, would be a lot easier using if all of this information is digitized, and you're interacting with it in a smart fridge type environment where it can track what you're picking up and making. So I think entering information into one of those calorie counting apps is often a pain and I think, a limitation for a lot of people. So anything that can mitigate some of that barrier to getting healthier and keeping track of what we're putting in our bodies, to me is very much welcome. Grant So we've talked about the art of the possibilities around this right? What is it that this can bring the people that dramatically influences and impacts their health? What do you see in terms of the downsides? What hurdles or challenges? What could get in the way of either people adopting this or getting value from it? What what concerns or challenges do you see there? Daniel Yeah, so some of the things that we've seen in the industry about the difficulty to use this type of data is, every retailer kind of has a different format for how they ask for data. Some retailers want the units and the nutrition and the value to be separate. So if you have seven grams for protein, sometimes they want us separate key for seven and a separate one for brands. They might call things different. Some people might think call things, UPC, other ones call it barcode. Other ones call it product ID. So that's some of the work in transit translating the data mapping or the data model to each of those retailers can be a major bottleneck for a brand say wants to get their data to Walmart to Albertsons to target. And they basically had to look at these like massive Excel spreadsheets, but like 70 columns or 150 columns, and manually copy that data over and it's a huge pain. And that that is one of the major reasons why only the largest of brands have the resources to get their data digitized in the first place. So what we do is, you know, we're going to first extract that information for you automatically from your images. You don't have to hire a team of people to do that extraction in the first place, where we've also built these mappings for the top 10 retailers where we can automatically syndicate and get the data in the format that they want to see. Whether that's directly through an API, and just automatically updating your information through an API, fortunately, some of the grocery industry isn't quite as forward thinking. So a lot of updates are just made through Excel spreadsheets. But we'll create that Excel spreadsheet for you. So that it's basically just a matter of sending that over an email. And I think that should mitigate a vast majority of the bottlenecks currently faced in the industry. Because some of the, I could just imagine being a brand manager and be like, Alright, well, here's my data mapping. But then there's these close lists for Walmart, where, you know, I'm supposed to put in a certain beef cut type for this product. And doing that, for every single one of my 150 500 products, that is going to be a huge ass. Grant Yeah, it has said that. It's one of the things that drew me to this. And when you and I were first talking about this recently, which was, I feel like the work that you're doing is not only scales to the larger brands, but also it's pulling out all this information that makes it available, even the small to medium business space as well. And so feels very scalable, therefore approachable to benefit a lot of people, lots of different scenarios. Daniel Yeah, absolutely. And we try to make things as easy as possible to get integrated with our system. So, you know, our simplest use case, if you already have data and a list of URLs for your product, you're going to send us over a CSV with your URL links and the product IDs associated with those. And we'll download those images for you and process them through the system. And now you can download it and whatever data format you want, you know, CSV or JSON, or an Excel or in target specific taxonomy format, or Walmart's or Albertsons. Or you can upload it through a, you know, drag and drop upload portal where you can just drop, drag a folder of your product images into that upload portal, interact with an API, or even give us access to your put them up on an FTP server and point us to it and we will download the images there. So it's really trying to make things as simple as possible. So that whatever your tech stack is, and whatever the size of your organization is, we can help you get up and running as quickly as possible. Grant Lots of integration strategies for if that's powerful. That's awesome. Alright, so let me ask you, if the for the people that are listening to this, where are you going to direct them to what's what's, where are you going to invite and where do they go find out more about this? Daniel Yep, so a FoodSpaceTech.com is the place to find all of the information. Grant Okay, FoodSpaceTech.com; Awesome. That's great. Daniel Okay, we actually just released a brand new website. So it looks great. And you can look at it now. Grant It looks awesome. I've asked you a ton of questions. What questions Haven't I asked you? What would you like to share that I haven't prompted you? Daniel Yeah. So I think that can be skepticism and the world of AI. And, you know, whether or not we can do what we say that we can do. And we are, again, just absolutely religious about product accuracy. And I think it's good for anyone who knows a lot about AI to know that AI can only take you so far and the machine learning is only going to get you so far. So we've spent a very large amount of our time building a very sophisticated human in the loop process, were really trying to figure out where the ML system is doing well and can be trusted, versus when a human needs to come in and take the reins and make a more educated more critical thinking decision about things with things like building known rules between the nutrition label. So calories is a very direct calculation from total carbohydrates and protein and total fat. So we can basically just cut check to see if that calculations done well. We can cross check our nutrition information against our ingredients where we've actually built models where we can predict certain nutrition elements based on the ingredients. You know, we know that a cookie were the first ingredient might be butter or sugar is going to have more fat content than something where the first ingredient is carrots. So if anything falls outside of those ranges, we can alert it and say, Hey, something's gone off the rails here, we should make sure if human takes a look at it. For certain container types, we know we are struggle a little bit more things like that yogurt container. So instead of relying on the ML models that work most of the time, but not all the time, we can just flag that certain product type for review by a human just to get another check on it. But we really think that the just to solve a problem, at least in the near term, using AI involves humans in that in the loop and being able to really distinguish that the easy cases, the happy path that I like to call from, hey, we've seen a new domain, you know, maybe it's a it, both English and Spanish is written on the back. So our models are getting a little bit confused. Let's flag that for review. Grant Yep. Yeah, I really appreciate the qualification around AI. I tend to prefer to think of it as augmented intelligence than artificial intelligence, I feel Yeah, I feel like that's the state of where it really is. There's so many things out there, like, Oh, you know, ai robots and Terminator that give a real misperception. But, but today, this stuff around deep fake, right, is really starting to become, you know, a bit of a challenge, right, in terms of creating even less trust around this. So it's a real misuse, if you will, of that. So in this particular case, this is obviously real, honorable use of AI itself. But the whole if we can keep people's perceptions to this is to augment your thinking process, right? Your cognitive behavior. So even though it's coming to you and saying, This is what you could or should eat, or this is what makes sense, you know, from a nutritional value, you still own the responsibility yourself, right to end up saying, Yeah, this is something I'm gonna do, I'm not passing that off, you know, to the AI model and say, do all the thinking for me, right? Daniel Oh, absolutely. And I could not agree more, you know, we are just providing the information to you. But it still requires that critical thinking and decision about your own values and your own goals to make the final decision about what you're going to put into your body. Right. We're just trying to make that easier. Make that whole decision process simpler. Yeah. Powerful. Grant They're very cool. Okay. All right. Any last comments, before we wrap up here, Daniel? No, it was a great to be here at Brampton. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time and for sharing this cool platform that you've put together everyone, go take a look at food space tech.com. Thank you for joining and until next time, go get some nutrition. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

In this episode, I have a guest who discusses nutritional AI that you can eat. Grant Everybody, this is Grant Larsen. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI radio. Wow. Today I have in the house with me. Mr. Daniel DeMillard, he is the CTO of FoodSpace, and I am just honored for the opportunity to meet him and to get to hear his story and what he and his organization has been doing with AI. Alright, let's jump into this. Okay, so, Daniel, first of all, welcome. Daniel Thanks for having me, Grant. Great to be here. Grant It is, it is really great to have you here and to have another another patriots in AI, right things that you guys are doing, as I got to know you. And before we started this recording, I was fascinated with the kind of work that you guys are doing and where you focus your use and application of AI. But before we get too deep into that, would you step back in time and tell us? Who's Daniel, where do you come from? And what is it that's brought you to this point to be CTO applying AI in such a cool way? Daniel Yep, so I actually studied economics and finance in school and came across an online class by Andrew Yang on Coursera. And at that point, I just absolutely fell in love with machine learning and artificial intelligence. And I was like, wow, this is absolutely what I'm wanting. Yeah, with my life. So, you know, started studying a lot. Got a job eventually at IBM Watson, and worked at a small company doing what type classification, then I was doing some consulting on the side, where I actually got connected with iosshare, Nike, the CEO of foods, but at the time, it was a lunchbox. And they were developing a consumer facing app that, you know, they were trying to pair people with recipes. And you could set up a diet profile for yourself, and instantly order things online through instacart, based on recipes that you find. And I initially got engaged with them, building a wine pairing recommendation application, where, given a certain recipe will automatically recommend a wine pairing that would go well, really well I Grant ...need that certain kind of food, you're like, Hey, this is the right, right, Daniel ...we're gonna wanna medium red wine with that right or a very sweet dessert wine. Grant Until it this where lunchbox started, they were focusing on solving that problem. Daniel They were focused on solving the one stop shop for keeping all of your recipes together, ordering food very easily. And then also being able to manage your diets, and allergens, and just make making sure all of that was really seamless. And they also had a great mission of trying to mitigate food waste, so that they could recommend given all of the stuff that you have in your fridge that would normally sit there and forget about they could recommend a recipe and for you to make of the things that you've already selected. And so Grant all right, very good. All right. So so then you bumped into them, and you started to work with them. Tell us a little bit about the transition over to food space. How did the vision change? Daniel Yeah, it was actually pretty serendipitous, and rather abrupt. So back in 2019, io was a part of grocery shop, which is a big conference in the CPG space and food industry. And he's trying to pitch this idea of lunchbox to brands and retailers to get them to sign up for it. And they all have basically kept telling them the same thing of like, hey, it's a great idea. It's super interesting. I would love to but what you're asking for with all of these like dietary profiles, and The information necessary to build these types of recommendation algorithms. It's we just don't have it, we don't have ingredients and digitized nutrition labels. And, you know, we have the very minimum. So given that that information is like, Okay, well, we've got to take a step back. So he calls me up. And he says, you know, hey, Daniel, would it be possible given a bunch of computer or a bunch of e commerce images, to extract the product information from there and actually read it from those images. And I had done a little bit of stuff with computer vision by that point, using, like pre trained, convolutional neural net models on image net, and then using transfer learning to identify key regions. And so I stopped and thought about it. And I was like, yeah, you know, I think the problem is tractable enough. And the technology's in such place, now that we can absolutely solve this problem. And so yeah, two years later, we now have a model that can classify things that matter of seconds. And we're gonna extract that product information and seconds with 99.7% accuracy 99.7. So if I bring I can assume to you, and you can see the label on it, you can figure out what this is, you can identify it. Exactly. So we'll extract things like brand name, product, name, net weight, the ingredients, the nutrition label, any certifications, such as whether or not it's recycled, kosher, non GMO, vegan, all of that awesome stuff, including marketing claims, like low sodium or, you know, contains less sugar, those those types of things, well, pull out all of the relevant information from the product label. And we'll read it in the same way that a person would read it. A lot of other products that do something similar or are entirely based on the universal Product Code code, the UPC barcode on the back, where they're basically just looking things up from a database, a database might have inaccurate information, it might be out of date, so might have been accurate at one point, it might have been transmis, transcribe with whoever transcribed it in the first place, we're gonna read that label and not image, the same way that a human would label it so that it's, we're going to the ground truth. Grant So PC based, you're actually extracting the actual text, you're figuring out what this is, and then the semantics of it. What does that mean? Oh, it means this ingredient, this so much in the, you know, in terms of the amount of the ingredient, and so forth. Daniel Exactly. And then we will also derive new information from that information that we've extracted, such as whether or not it's going to be had certain allergens. If it contains peanuts, we're going to let you know if it has a peanut allergy. We're also going to determine whether or not it conforms to different diets. So I'm a vegetarian. And I'm constantly reading labels for obscure things like whether or not my cheese contains rennet in it, which is a animal derived enzyme. So we will read all of that for you, and then derive whether or not it's going to correspond with with your diet. Grant So can you talk about some of the use cases around this? So are you targeting b2b scenarios? Are you doing b2c? Is that something that I as an end consumer comes in interacts with it, let's say through through my cell phone? or How are you? How are people going to consume this this cool platform? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are primarily focused on optimizing the e commerce experience. So if you're on Walmart, or Albertsons or target, and you are using your favorite grocery delivery app, or you're going in to do pickup, all of that purchasing decisions are happening upfront on the e commerce website. And at the very least, we want to make sure that that information is present and accurate so that you can make the decisions yourself whether or not at the very least, you can see that ingredients label and search to see if that rennet in gradient is there, or if you're trying to, you know bulk up make sure that it has enough protein or has low sugar, low fat, whatever your dietary needs are. We want to make sure that information is there. But we really want to enable a more optimized ecommerce experiences where you know in your little left side of the toolbar, you can select vegetarian or pescatarian or low sodium diet or a South Beach diet, or I'm allergic to shellfish, and automatically only be shown products that correspond to your dietary needs. So we really think that optimizing that e commerce experience and the search is where we can have the largest impact right away. Grant So So some of the health profile of the person intersects with this, is it coming off? Like, I don't know, like, like the fitness app? Or is it coming off of other sort of apps? And then are capturing that health information? How do you integrate with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So right now, we are basically providing the data to the retailer so that they can make those optimizations. But certainly being able to integrate with, you know, My Fitness Pal, or Weight Watchers would help optimize these experiences. And we are in discussions with those types of companies as well to improve their databases. So that you aren't, you don't have to manually type in all of that information on your fitness app, you can basically just look it up in the database, and it's accurate and recent. One problem that we've seen is that 30% or so of data is of grocery products are updated every year. So anyone I think use one of these apps has the experience of typing in their information, finding out finding the correct product, but it's a little bit outdated, the calories are a little off the nutrient profiles a little bit off, we're gonna make sure that it's updated. And in the right place. Grant That's interesting. So you talked about accuracy, the model accuracy for AI? And I think you should say 97%. Right. 99.7. Daniel Yeah, we are absolutely religious about that is, wow, you know, that is the problem that we're trying to solve. Right now, if you look up any product, on, say, a large, very large e commerce website, like walmart.com, there is a somewhere between 40 and 70% chance that there is at least one mistake on that website, regarding just the ingredients and nutrition information. So if you're trying to base you know, your health profile on that, it's it's an inaccurate, so we are just absolutely religious about getting every single piece of information. Correct, at least as so far as it corresponds to the product images. Grant So is this is this just for humans? Or is this also food for animals and pets? And how does this work? Daniel Yep, so we've definitely just, we started with humans, we are expanding to pet food and being able to build attributes around that two things like wet versus dry pet food, whether it's for a large size dog, or a small size dog. And all of those attributes we're hoping will also assist in that product search and discoverability so that you're not being shown a dog food, that's, you know, too too big for your small small dogs. Right. Grant Right. Right. Okay. All right, that makes sense. And then in terms of what we're talking about, who it's relevant to terms, your current market, so it's for humans, obviously, animals in the future. But as we think about the humans, this English base, is it other languages, Spanish or Mandarin or others? Where are you in terms of multilingual? Daniel Yep. So, you know, food is, I think, sacred to everyone everywhere. And as we move from this, in store grocery experience, where you're, you have the product in front of you, you can pick it up, and you can read the label to an e commerce experience, where somebody might just be dropping that off to your doorstep, and you don't see the product until it's there. We really think it's important that we have as larger reach as possible. So we definitely are working on expanding our algorithms to apply to different regulatory regulatory environments. You know, Europe has, I think, 12 allergens, whereas the united states currently has nine, and they just added sesame, to their allergens. They also have different nutrition labels and different information that they require to be on those. And then in addition to that, the different languages that are actually present there, and all of that obviously presents different technological issues, custom models for each of those markets, but really what we've spent a lot of time Building and working on is creating models that can quickly adapt to these new domains and building a really robust training pipeline. So that basically all we have to do is collect more data, instill a little bit of domain expertise, where we have to learn a little bit about that new market or that language. But after that, we can adapt our models very quickly to that new. Grant You know, I just have to ask, given that I love the AI piece of this, as well as just the benefit that you're bringing to human family. I mean, that's, that's huge. When I think about the AI portion of this, I think, how, how was building that model? I mean, how you have a lot of cans in your food storage now. I mean, how much? How many boxes of Cheerios did you buy? I mean, that's amazing. How did you get through all that? That's just that, right? There is a big challenge, right? To get through enough instances? Daniel Yeah, um, I Oh, and Dan, my business partners, they spent a lot of time getting kicked out of grocery stores, because they kept picking out prod products and taking pictures with their phones. And so they were kicked out of a few grocery stores, I think they learned to, you know, explain what, what they were doing their first after a little bit, but certainly a lot of time, taking pictures of your entire pantry. Going around the grocery store, just pick it up as many random things as possible. That's creative. Grant Yeah, that's, that's really great. If you have any particular challenges in terms of the kinds of food and other words, some things don't have labels, right. So certainly asparagus typically right or decent, things like that. So how do you deal with that? Daniel Yeah, absolutely. So currently, we only support branded foods. So it does need to have that product label. But it's interesting that you should mention certain types of foods, we were doing a analysis an audit of our accuracy. And we were noticing that a certain product category, yogurt, in particular, was creating a lot of issues for us and was very low accuracy. And it turned out that the curvature of the yogurt container, and then the fact that it kind of tapers down, creating a lot of issues for OCR model, where the text is kind of getting bunched up at the edges of that, you know, yogurt container. So we actually had to like build a specific model just to handle those types of containers. So certainly, you know, a lot of our time and effort has been focused on the corner cases in those weird scenarios where that are particularly difficult. The like, very simple run of the mill cereal box, where it's a nice rectangular box and the nutrition labels very prominent. And it's a very usual format that's easier to solve that most of our time has been focused on these weird one offs, like these tobert, tapered yogurt containers. Grant So so let me think about because I love the, again, this problem that you're solving and how it benefits people and their dietary needs. When I think about how people can consume this, what's the way that they will be able to interact with this standard? And what's the state of what space is doing today? Is it? Is it out there ready to be used? Or Where are you guys? Daniel Yeah, we're currently working with brands to get their data to the retailers and some retailers are a little bit further along than others and optimizing the, you know, experience for you where you can set up those dietary profiles for yourself and only be shown the products that correspond to your values, or do you only want organic food or you have a gluten intolerance, only being charged on those foods that correspond with those values or dietary needs to just getting the product information out there to the retailers in the first place. We're also working with some initial engagements with smart appliance manufacturers, things like smart fridges and smart micro microwaves, where you can simply scan the product, either using the barcode or just the front of the product and instantly have your oven or your microwave set the time timer or the temperature for you to cook that product for you. Additionally, being able to do things like recipe planning based on the products that you have in your fridge, being able to order products from I'm a retailer directly using the feature on your fridge that is based on your dietary profiles and just you never needed to get on your computer. And you could just order, you know, your gluten free pizza directly from your smart fridge that is linked to a product database with information that we're providing, we really think that more and more people are going more and more of our purchasing Our food is going to happen in this virtual digitized space, whether that's through your computer, your smart fridge, and the more that information is available, the more that we can build a more customized experience, and really make shopping easier as well, so that you aren't ever being shown products that don't correspond to your dietary dietary needs or your values. You know, even being able to set timers and things for microwave, it might sound trivial, but it really should make the entire cooking, cooking experience that easier for you. Grant You know, I certainly could benefit from walking up to the fridge and say, what are the possibilities of what I can create from what's in there, my wife will do that she's got that AI model already in her head, but I don't have that model, same set of food and go, there's nothing in there. And then she can craft you know, miracles out of it. Daniel So yeah, I'm the exact same way. And, you know, you could you can set user profiles for everyone in your family and say, Hey, you know, I'm a pescetarian. And my daughter's gluten intolerant and my son really only it's organic food, and being able to mix and match all of those constraints, we can figure out what recipe and you know, what to eat for dinner, right? Grant And so it sounds like, like, like, we've done that, that South Beach diet multiple times. Sounds like you know, you can literally walk up to your, to your fridge at some point and say, Hey, what is it that I can make that is in compliance with the South Beach diet? Daniel Exactly. And then things like, you know, macros counting, like calorie counting, and counting how much protein that you're consuming, would be a lot easier using if all of this information is digitized, and you're interacting with it in a smart fridge type environment where it can track what you're picking up and making. So I think entering information into one of those calorie counting apps is often a pain and I think, a limitation for a lot of people. So anything that can mitigate some of that barrier to getting healthier and keeping track of what we're putting in our bodies, to me is very much welcome. Grant So we've talked about the art of the possibilities around this right? What is it that this can bring the people that dramatically influences and impacts their health? What do you see in terms of the downsides? What hurdles or challenges? What could get in the way of either people adopting this or getting value from it? What what concerns or challenges do you see there? Daniel Yeah, so some of the things that we've seen in the industry about the difficulty to use this type of data is, every retailer kind of has a different format for how they ask for data. Some retailers want the units and the nutrition and the value to be separate. So if you have seven grams for protein, sometimes they want us separate key for seven and a separate one for brands. They might call things different. Some people might think call things, UPC, other ones call it barcode. Other ones call it product ID. So that's some of the work in transit translating the data mapping or the data model to each of those retailers can be a major bottleneck for a brand say wants to get their data to Walmart to Albertsons to target. And they basically had to look at these like massive Excel spreadsheets, but like 70 columns or 150 columns, and manually copy that data over and it's a huge pain. And that that is one of the major reasons why only the largest of brands have the resources to get their data digitized in the first place. So what we do is, you know, we're going to first extract that information for you automatically from your images. You don't have to hire a team of people to do that extraction in the first place, where we've also built these mappings for the top 10 retailers where we can automatically syndicate and get the data in the format that they want to see. Whether that's directly through an API, and just automatically updating your information through an API, fortunately, some of the grocery industry isn't quite as forward thinking. So a lot of updates are just made through Excel spreadsheets. But we'll create that Excel spreadsheet for you. So that it's basically just a matter of sending that over an email. And I think that should mitigate a vast majority of the bottlenecks currently faced in the industry. Because some of the, I could just imagine being a brand manager and be like, Alright, well, here's my data mapping. But then there's these close lists for Walmart, where, you know, I'm supposed to put in a certain beef cut type for this product. And doing that, for every single one of my 150 500 products, that is going to be a huge ass. Grant Yeah, it has said that. It's one of the things that drew me to this. And when you and I were first talking about this recently, which was, I feel like the work that you're doing is not only scales to the larger brands, but also it's pulling out all this information that makes it available, even the small to medium business space as well. And so feels very scalable, therefore approachable to benefit a lot of people, lots of different scenarios. Daniel Yeah, absolutely. And we try to make things as easy as possible to get integrated with our system. So, you know, our simplest use case, if you already have data and a list of URLs for your product, you're going to send us over a CSV with your URL links and the product IDs associated with those. And we'll download those images for you and process them through the system. And now you can download it and whatever data format you want, you know, CSV or JSON, or an Excel or in target specific taxonomy format, or Walmart's or Albertsons. Or you can upload it through a, you know, drag and drop upload portal where you can just drop, drag a folder of your product images into that upload portal, interact with an API, or even give us access to your put them up on an FTP server and point us to it and we will download the images there. So it's really trying to make things as simple as possible. So that whatever your tech stack is, and whatever the size of your organization is, we can help you get up and running as quickly as possible. Grant Lots of integration strategies for if that's powerful. That's awesome. Alright, so let me ask you, if the for the people that are listening to this, where are you going to direct them to what's what's, where are you going to invite and where do they go find out more about this? Daniel Yep, so a FoodSpaceTech.com is the place to find all of the information. Grant Okay, FoodSpaceTech.com; Awesome. That's great. Daniel Okay, we actually just released a brand new website. So it looks great. And you can look at it now. Grant It looks awesome. I've asked you a ton of questions. What questions Haven't I asked you? What would you like to share that I haven't prompted you? Daniel Yeah. So I think that can be skepticism and the world of AI. And, you know, whether or not we can do what we say that we can do. And we are, again, just absolutely religious about product accuracy. And I think it's good for anyone who knows a lot about AI to know that AI can only take you so far and the machine learning is only going to get you so far. So we've spent a very large amount of our time building a very sophisticated human in the loop process, were really trying to figure out where the ML system is doing well and can be trusted, versus when a human needs to come in and take the reins and make a more educated more critical thinking decision about things with things like building known rules between the nutrition label. So calories is a very direct calculation from total carbohydrates and protein and total fat. So we can basically just cut check to see if that calculations done well. We can cross check our nutrition information against our ingredients where we've actually built models where we can predict certain nutrition elements based on the ingredients. You know, we know that a cookie were the first ingredient might be butter or sugar is going to have more fat content than something where the first ingredient is carrots. So if anything falls outside of those ranges, we can alert it and say, Hey, something's gone off the rails here, we should make sure if human takes a look at it. For certain container types, we know we are struggle a little bit more things like that yogurt container. So instead of relying on the ML models that work most of the time, but not all the time, we can just flag that certain product type for review by a human just to get another check on it. But we really think that the just to solve a problem, at least in the near term, using AI involves humans in that in the loop and being able to really distinguish that the easy cases, the happy path that I like to call from, hey, we've seen a new domain, you know, maybe it's a it, both English and Spanish is written on the back. So our models are getting a little bit confused. Let's flag that for review. Grant Yep. Yeah, I really appreciate the qualification around AI. I tend to prefer to think of it as augmented intelligence than artificial intelligence, I feel Yeah, I feel like that's the state of where it really is. There's so many things out there, like, Oh, you know, ai robots and Terminator that give a real misperception. But, but today, this stuff around deep fake, right, is really starting to become, you know, a bit of a challenge, right, in terms of creating even less trust around this. So it's a real misuse, if you will, of that. So in this particular case, this is obviously real, honorable use of AI itself. But the whole if we can keep people's perceptions to this is to augment your thinking process, right? Your cognitive behavior. So even though it's coming to you and saying, This is what you could or should eat, or this is what makes sense, you know, from a nutritional value, you still own the responsibility yourself, right to end up saying, Yeah, this is something I'm gonna do, I'm not passing that off, you know, to the AI model and say, do all the thinking for me, right? Daniel Oh, absolutely. And I could not agree more, you know, we are just providing the information to you. But it still requires that critical thinking and decision about your own values and your own goals to make the final decision about what you're going to put into your body. Right. We're just trying to make that easier. Make that whole decision process simpler. Yeah. Powerful. Grant They're very cool. Okay. All right. Any last comments, before we wrap up here, Daniel? No, it was a great to be here at Brampton. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time and for sharing this cool platform that you've put together everyone, go take a look at food space tech.com. Thank you for joining and until next time, go get some nutrition. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your FREE eBook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

About Daniel KimDaniel Kim (He/Him) is a Senior Developer Relations Engineer at New Relic and the founder of Bit Project, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit dedicated to making tech accessible to underserved communities. He wants to inspire generations of students in tech to be the best they can be through inclusive, accessible developer education. He is passionate about diversity & inclusion in tech, good food, and dad jokes.Twitter: @learnwdanielVolunteer with Bit Project: bitproject.org/volunteerLearn Serverless with Bit Project: bitproject.org/course/serverlessWatch this video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/oDdrbDXQG6wThis episode sponsored by, CBT Nuggets.Transcript:Jeremy: Hi, everyone. I'm Jeremy Daly and this is Serverless Chats. Today I'm chatting with Daniel Kim. Hey, Daniel. Thanks for joining me.Daniel: Hi, Jeremy. How's it going?Jeremy: It's going real ...Daniel: I'm glad to be here.Jeremy: Well, I'm glad that you're here. So, you are a Senior Developer Relations Engineer at New Relic, but you're also the founder of Bit Project. So, I would love it if you could tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and your background and what Bit Project is all about.Daniel: That sounds great, Jeremy. My name is Daniel. I'm a Senior Developer Relations Engineer at New Relic, which means I get to help the community and go find developers and help them become better developers. And I got into developer relations because I founded a school club and now it's a nonprofit, but it started as a school club, called Bit Project, where me and my friends gathered together to teach each other awesome web technologies. And yeah, that's how I got my start. And I am still running Bit Project as a nonprofit to help students around the world build and ship projects using awesome technologies and help them learn and become better developers.Jeremy: Right. And one of those awesome technologies is serverless. And that's what I want to talk to you about today because this is a really great program that you're running here that helps make Serverless more accessible to more people, which is what I'm all about, right? So, I absolutely love this. So, let's go back and talk a little bit about Bit Project and just get into how it got started. You mentioned it was a project you were doing with some college friends, but how did it go from that to what it is now?Daniel: Yeah. So, I started this, I think, late freshman year when I was still in school at UC Davis. I was not a computer science major, actually. I was an electrical engineering major, but as I got into technology and seeing all the possibilities of things you can build with cool tech, I was like, "I really need to get into web development because this is so awesome. I can make changes on the fly. I can see awesome things. I can build awesome things with my hands." Well, with my computer. So, yeah, I got a couple of friends together because I'm a very social person so I like to build and learn things together with my friends. So, I got a couple of them together. We rented a lecture hall and then we just taught each other everything we knew to each other. For example, I was super into Gatsby and React, so I was teaching my friends React. Other friends were super into backend development, so they were teaching me things like how to design APIs and how to connect a frontend to a backend, like really awesome things to each other.And it started like that until I decided to scale the program so I could help more and more of my fellow students. So, instead of doing four-person meetups, I would organize a workshop. And those workshops turned into sponsored workshops with funding, which meant a lot of free food, which meant more people, and it just ballooned into this awesome student organization where we always had the best food. We had free Boba, free pizza, and we would share with each other all these awesome technologies and tools that we learned how to work with using in our projects. So, that's how it started.Jeremy: Right. And then, so once you got this thing rolling, obviously you're seeing some success with it, then you get into developer relations?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. So, that's when I understood what I wanted to do with them for the rest of my life. I didn't want to be that production engineer on-call all the time. I wanted to be that engineer that helped other engineers become more successful and find the joy in programming. I love seeing when developers find that "aha moment" when they're learning something new and help them become better developers. And I found that out when I was teaching my friends how to program because I got more joy out of seeing other people succeed than me succeeding myself. So, I was like, "Developer relations is the path for me." So, that's why I directly entered developer relations right out of college, because I was like, "This is what I'm meant to do." Because one of my favorite things to do is figure out how to break down really complex ideas and concepts into more fun, easy-to-understand chunks so everyone can succeed and have a good time. That's my thing.Jeremy: No, I love that. I love that because I feel like, especially people who are maybe not traditional tech people or don't have a traditional tech background, sometimes it just takes a little bit of twisting of the presentation for them to really understand that. And I love that idea of just reaching out and trying to help more people because I'm on the total same page with you here. So, now you go and so you get into developer relations and you've got this Bit Project thing. And so is this something that you wanted to keep as a side project? What was the next evolution of that?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. So, I think Bit Project is an extension to the advocacy work I do at New Relic. Because at New Relic, my job is not to push New Relic the product. We have amazing product marketing managers and other folks who do that. My job is to make it easy for people to level up the community, like the people in the community to level up as developers and help the community. And one way I do that is through Bit Project. So, a lot of the work I do at New Relic mirrors or is parallel to the work I'm doing at Bit Project, where I help make complex ideas more accessible to developers. So, in a way, it's not more of a side project. It's like a parallel project of what I'm doing at New Relic, what I'm doing at Bit Project.Jeremy: Right. And so in terms of the things that you're teaching at Bit Project too because that's the other thing too. I think leveling up developers is one of those things where, I mean, if somebody wants to go learn HTML or CSS or one of those things, there's probably plenty of resources for them to go and do that. There's probably nine million YouTube tutorials out there, right?Daniel: Definitely.Jeremy: But for concepts like Serverless, right? And I mean even Serverless with Azure and AWS and some of these other things, these are newer things. I've actually interviewed quite a few candidates for a recent position that I'm trying to fill and not a lot of them are learning this stuff in college.Daniel: Definitely. Something that we really wanted to instill to our students was that this is not your average bootcamp or course. We're not promising any six-figure salary after our bootcamps. That's not what we're promising. What we're promising is the opportunity to learn a concept that is foreign to many developers, even seasoned developers, because it's a relatively new technology, and we teach you the tools we give you and teach you the ways to become successful. So, we won't teach you everything you need to know, but we will teach you how to find the things you need to know to become successful developers. So, we help establish a good foundation for developers to learn new things and then build things on their own.Jeremy: Right. And this is ...Daniel: That's the focus of our program.Jeremy: Yeah. And this is completely free, right?Daniel: It's completely free. We're run thanks to the generosity of our corporate sponsors. So, shout out to them. Yeah. So, it's completely free for all students. So, please go and apply if you're interested and you are a student.Jeremy: So, one of the major things that you focus on, and I know that you have different courses or different workshops that you're going through. And I know some of the other ones are a little bit earlier like the DevOps one. But you have a pretty robust serverless. I mean, that's the main thing, right? Teaching people to build serverless applications on Microsoft Azure. So, I'm curious, especially having somebody jump in from maybe a non-traditional tech background or no tech background at all, and also students of all ages, right? We're not just talking about high school or college kids here, that jumping into something like serverless, what makes serverless such a good, I guess, jumping in point for the types of candidates that you're looking for?Daniel: Yeah. This is actually a great question because I have this conversation a lot with my colleagues at New Relic because when seasoned engineers hear about serverless, they jump straight into the, "How is this scalable for my enterprise use case? How is this going to integrate with my 70,000 other microservices?" They get into those questions immediately. But if you really boil down what serverless is, it's basically running code without thinking about infrastructure. That's the crux of what serverless is. And if you think about it from that perspective and not worry about all the other technical hurdles into implementing it in scale, it becomes a lot easier to digest for students. And it becomes a really friendly medium to get started with coding a project because you just have to code a small JavaScript or Python function that you just deploy to the cloud.It just magically works. We try not to overwhelm students with all the infrastructure talk and more focus on the code that they're writing. And I was really inspired because one of my mentors for my career is Chloe Condon from Microsoft, and I remember her writing a lot of blogs around getting started with serverless. She built this fake boyfriend app with a Twilio and serverless. And I was like, "Hey, this is not that unapproachable for students to get started with serverless functions," because it was only maybe 40, 50 lines of code. It integrated multiple APIs. So, I was like, "This is the perfect medium," because it's relatively simple to understand the idea of just writing code and deploying it to a magical kingdom where the magical kingdom controls everything, you know?Jeremy: Right.Daniel: So, that's my inspiration for using serverless as a medium to teach people how the modern full-stack app works, if that makes sense.Jeremy: Yeah. No, I totally agree, and I use this quite a bit where I tell people when I was a kid when I first started programming in the late 1990s, everything was CGI bins, right? So, we were just uploading code using FTP, but it was seriously magical. Now, again, it wouldn't scale, right. But it was magical in terms of how that happened. But even if it didn't scale, the point where you can get to that, what do we call it? The "aha moment," right? Where you're like, "Oh, this is how that works," or, "Oh, I get it now." I think you just get there faster with serverless.Daniel: Exactly. I think that's one of the reasons I love serverless is that we have students spin up a serverless function day one of the camp. We don't wait until day three or day four to teach them how to build with serverless. We're like, "Hey, this is the environment that you're going to work in," and then we have them write their own serverless functions based on a boilerplate code that we have written already. So, we try to make the barrier to entry as low as possible, so students don't get intimidated by the word "serverless."Jeremy: Right. Right. Yeah. And I think also it's probably a good place to get people started thinking about just what the cloud is and how the cloud works in general.Daniel: Yeah. Definitely. Some of our students have never even heard of what an API is. So, we really take students from zero to understanding how different services work on the internet and how we can take advantage of services and other code that other people have written to write our own applications. Because a lot of students, especially junior developers, don't realize how little you have to code to actually get an app working. Because most likely there's someone in the world who's coded something that you're looking for to implement already. So, it's more like a jigsaw puzzle than trying to build something yourself.Jeremy: Right. It's that whole Lego concept, just sticking those building blocks together. So, you mentioned, though, some of your students they've never even heard of an API or they don't know what an API is. So, I'm just thinking from the perspective of an absolute beginner, how do you scope a project for an absolute beginner to get them to somewhere where they actually have something that gets them to that "aha moment," makes them feel like, "Hey, I've actually done something interesting here," but not overwhelm them with things like open API spec 3.0? You know what I mean? All this kind of stuff.Daniel: Yeah. I think one of the most important things when you're designing a curriculum is understanding the pain points of the student. So, this curriculum was designed by a bunch of students. I'm not the only one that wrote this curriculum. This curriculum had a lot of contributors from all over the world who are high school and college students. We knew that we didn't want to go too in-depth from the beginning because we have a lot of students from non-traditional backgrounds that don't have a lot of previous knowledge. So, what we try to do is set up guide rails and have boilerplates and things like that to ensure that they're successful. Because the worst thing you can do when you're working with a junior developer is just overwhelm them with information and have really, really hard assignments that lead to frustration.So, we try to make that path really, really easy. But instead, what we try to do is have stretch goals or have extra-curricular assignments where they can apply what they have learned. So, if they're a little bit more advanced and they're getting the concepts and they're understanding at a deeper level how things work, they're able to practice and hone those skills. So, what we do is we try to work with our mentors, our fabulous mentors who are engineers in the industry, to help students code those stretch goals and help them understand at a deeper level if they have the capacity to do so. So, we try to customize the experience for every student based on their previous experience.Jeremy: Right. And I think another important thing is setting expectations with the students as well. I mean, you mentioned earlier that this isn't a bootcamp that you're guaranteeing $100,000 salaries when you walk out. I think that that is something, to me, where I think that level of honesty and truth is really important because I think there are a lot of these eight to 12-week boot camps that over-promise. And I don't know. I mean, I've been doing this for 24 years, and I don't feel like I'm an expert on anything and I've been doing it for a very long time. So, eight weeks doesn't get you to be an expert in anything, but if you can become productive, that's pretty exciting.Daniel: Yeah. Our goal is not to get you a six-figure job. Because that would be nice, but I feel like that's straight-up lying. Because I don't know all the students before they start personally, and I can't promise them a six-figure job. That's just ridiculous to me. But what I can promise is that you will ship an app. That's what I can promise. And I feel like when you're shipping an app and you're writing code to build an actual app that will work, you learn so much. You learn how to plan for a software project, how to ask questions, how to look for things on Google. So, that's the things we promise is the experiences, not necessarily the shiny six-figure salary. Even though I wish I could promise that. That would be amazing.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. And I think probably the greatest skill you can teach anyone as a developer is how to Google and how to use stack overflow.Daniel: Definitely.Jeremy: All right. So, you mentioned something about customizing, trying to make sure that the curriculum is adapted for the particular student. So, tell me a little bit more about that because that sounds really interesting.Daniel: Yeah. So, one of the reasons that I find our content and curriculum really special is that it's open-ended. It's not like they're programming exactly what every other student programs. So, for the first four weeks, we teach how serverless functions work, how to set up your development environment, everything through pair programming. So students, instead of having lectures, we have senior engineers actually pair program with junior developers, younger students, or students with less experience, so they can ask questions in the chat to learn as they are doing it with a mentor. And during the last four weeks, we actually have the students apply the things they've learned in the first four weeks through pair programming into their own applications. So, we teach them, "Hey, by week one, you should have this part of your project done. Week two, you should have this part of your project done." But we don't really specify exactly what their project should be. So, at the end of the camp, every single student has a different project they have built based on the interests they have, which has been really awesome to see.Jeremy: Well, that's also great, too. It's one of those things where, when your English teacher forces you to read Romeo and Juliet and you're not interested in Shakespeare, it's really hard to excel in that sometimes. So, letting people pick and choose where they go, I think is, again, is just a really good motivator and an excellent way. And again, just not over-promising. Just teaching people some of the basics, and then you have something to work on, something to iterate on, something to go a little bit deeper on and start understanding. If you just know that there are headers when you call an API, then you can maybe start doing some research as to what the other headers are and what I can do with those. And I think that level of curiosity would be really great for somebody and again, would excite them and get them going down that path.Daniel: Definitely. And I think the best way that students learn is actually trying to implement the things they have in their head. Because some of these projects that students have built for their capstone projects have been very, very complicated using serverless functions. One of the students actually built a Dropbox clone using serverless functions, and it was actually amazing. I couldn't do that, honestly, but she built it in three weeks, I think. So, I think it's the creativity that really, really I find impressive and amazing every cohort we have, is the variance in projects that we have for every single student.Jeremy: Right. Yeah. So, what are some of those projects? Because I think that'd be really interesting. Just give some examples of the sort of things you can build, right? Because the "Hello, World" tutorials are out there. People can go and probably cobble something together, but it sounds to me like the students that you have are building something that is actually, maybe not-production ready, but it is something that solves a real problem and it's a real solution to that. So, what are some of those different projects?Daniel: Definitely. One of our students, Bo, built an IoT heart rate monitor that connected to a serverless function. So, every time that the heartbeat went over a certain number, it would send a Twilio text message to the family members of whoever was subscribed to that particular heartbeat monitor. And he built that because his grandfather was suffering with some heart issues, and it was really important to his family that they knew that he was doing okay. They got alerted every time his heartbeat got too fast. So, he actually built this whole thing using a Raspberry PI. He had a heartbeat sensor that was attached to a bracelet and it actually connected to a Serverless function. And he demoed it and he actually did jumping jacks to get his heart rate up. It actually worked, which was super awesome. We got to demo during our demo day.Another student built a face mask detector. So, she would have someone take a picture on her website of someone wearing a face mask. And it would tell, using some cognitive APIs, if someone was wearing a mask or not. And she designed that because she knew a lot of local businesses who didn't have staff directly in the entrance of the business, and she wanted to make sure there was a solution where the owners could make sure someone was wearing a mask before they entered the establishment. So, that was a really cool project. There was another student who was actually in his forties who was a mining engineer who wanted to make a career change. So, he actually built this awesome serverless function that sent out earthquake notifications based on the data from the government, which was really, really awesome as well. So, there's so many projects that students have built with serverless functions, ranging everything from IoT to big data and so many things that I've learned actually, by watching all these projects being built.Jeremy: Yeah. That's amazing. And actually I think that something that's really interesting, you mentioned the gentleman with the career change, is that developers, I think, especially career developers, I mean, we get narrowly focused on solving software problems, right?Daniel: Exactly.Jeremy: And we maybe don't think so much about some of these other real-world problems that exist. So, that idea of taking your existing life experiences and problems that you've been dealing with and have a solution maybe in your head, but you can't express that. That's really frustrating, right? So, being able to do something like this and being able to express that, I think that's absolutely amazing.Daniel: Definitely. And I think this is one of the reasons why I find this program really rewarding for both students and the people who actually run the program because they see folks who have zero experience getting to the point where they can build the things that are in their head, which I think is magical.Jeremy: Yeah. No, I totally agree. Also, I think you said there's some other case studies on the blog?Daniel: Yeah. So, if you go to bitproject.org and go to the blog, we have a bunch of case studies that are still being uploaded. So, every week we're going to have new student projects that are going to be uploaded there. So, if you want to see some of the cool stuff that our students have built, feel free to go check it out.Jeremy: Awesome. All right. So, you just mentioned that this is a really rewarding thing. And I know for me, I do a lot of open source projects. I try to help as many people as I can. I don't run a nonprofit that runs courses. Maybe someday. But I do get exactly what you're saying because it is great to get that feedback, to see someone be successful because you've helped enable that. So, I know you're looking for mentors, right?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. We're looking for mentors who have previous experience or passion with serverless to mentor students, to get them to that point where they can build their own apps. So, we'd love to have you if you are interested and have a couple of hours per week to spare.Jeremy: Right. What's the requirement or the time commitment? It's just a few hours a week?Daniel: We recommend four to five hours a week to just work directly one-on-one with the student, and previous experience in serverless or just regular full-stack development is quite encouraged because we want to make sure that you are able to answer some of the technical questions that students might have around the content.Jeremy: Right. And you mentioned that, again, just going back to the mining example, but it sounds like that gentlemen was a little bit older. So, what's the age range of the students that you have in this program?Daniel: We don't have a minimum or maximum age that we accept. We just care about passion and the willingness to complete the program. Because the program is completely free, the standard that we set for our applicants is not of experience, but more of passion and desire to learn and become a successful developer.Jeremy: Right, right. Yeah. So, what about for mentors or people who are looking to do this? Again, I know it's rewarding to work with people and to help people. You know it's rewarding. What can you tell people, though, that might be interested in this? What are some of the other benefits, I guess, of being a mentor?Daniel: Yeah. Some of the really cool benefits I've seen is that we've been working directly with the Azure Functions team at Microsoft to mentor our students because they are using Azure Functions as the platform to host their serverless functions. And we've actually had PMs that are building as their functions, work with our students to get new ideas for product features, as well as engineers getting direct feedback on the features they worked on only a couple of weeks prior. Which I think is quite magical because I've seen these older PMs who are building that product the students are using and the students are very blunt, let me tell you. So they're like, "This feature makes no sense." So, a couple of weeks later it's magically fixed for some reason. I don't know how that could have happened, but things get resolved quite quickly when the student feedback comes in.Jeremy: Yeah. And also the other thing is, is that again, it's feedback that's, I guess, untainted from the experience of being a developer, right?Daniel: Definitely.Jeremy: So, it's like that childhood honesty that is what probably every product management team needs to figure that stuff out. So, all right. Well, so where are you going with this? What do you hope to do with Bit Project? I mean, is this something you want to grow or you want to add more courses? What's the future?Daniel: Definitely. That's a great question. So, as I work for New Relic, we are pivoting to create more content and more courses and more interactive learning materials and experiences in the DevOps field. So, right now we're creating content around observability, around container orchestration, things like that, that are more niche skills that students could learn to better their chances of getting a job as a site reliability engineer or a DevOps engineer. But most importantly, right now what we're trying to do is make sure that we're ready to scale as soon as possible because we feel like we have something really special here where we're teaching students how to ship apps, not to learn specific concepts like HTML or CSS. I think we have a really unique model here of how we're teaching students and how we're working with industry, leveraging cloud advocates and engineers who want to volunteer their specialized skill to better the community. So, right now I see the future as us helping make and lead more engineers of the future so we can have better services and better internet, hopefully, in a couple of years or a couple of decades.Jeremy: Well, it's a very noble goal. And so what about data science? I know there's a thing on the site about data science and I think you're doing some work with universities around that, right?Daniel: Yeah, definitely. So, we have a program called Bit University where we create these really easy-to-integrate data science courses for humanities classrooms, because there's a huge demand right now for humanities students to get data science experience, to get research opportunities as well as job opportunities. But a lot of them actually don't have access to data science courses because they're a humanities major, especially at smaller schools. So, what we do is we partner with universities like Cal State Fullerton and Sacramento State University to provide data science courses specifically tailored for humanities majors at these schools partnering with professors. So, yeah, that's the program and it's been super successful and we've had so many humanities students learn the basic skills they need to get these internships and these research opportunities, which has been really rewarding.Jeremy: Yeah. That's awesome. So Daniel, is there anything else you want to tell the listeners about Bit Project?Daniel: Definitely. Yeah. So, if you or your company want to help us make more technical content, like let's say you work in DevOps or you even work in Serverless functions that you want to extend the work we're doing, especially if you're an advocate, please reach out to me. I'm on Twitter. I'm on email. So, please reach out to me to work together on more technical content because my job is to make things more assessable. So, if you want to make anything, whether it's your area of expertise or something you think could be more accessible, I'd love to work with you to make sure that happens. And that is a free resource that's available to the community. That's my plug.Jeremy: That's awesome.Daniel: Reach out to me.Jeremy: That's awesome. No, I love it. Daniel, I appreciate, one, you being here and sharing this with everybody, but also the work that you're doing with the community is just amazing. The more people we can get into serverless and the more people we can get to understand this next generation of, I don't know, applications, I guess you want to call it, is absolutely a very, very noble goal. So, you mentioned Twitter. So, it's just learnwdaniel, right?Daniel: Definitely. Yeah.Jeremy: And then also the Bit Project has a Twitter, just bitPRJ. And then if you're interested in volunteering, you go to bitproject.org/volunteer. And students, if students want to sign up, how do they do that? They just go to bitproject.org?Daniel: Yeah. You can go directly to apply at bitproject.org, or if you want more information about the program, just go to bitproject. There's a huge banner at the top that will lead you directly to that website.Jeremy: Awesome. All right. Well, I will make sure I get all that into the show notes. Thanks again, Daniel.Daniel: Thank you.

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah. I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious. I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it. Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion. You can find me: Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women MindStrength for Women Facebook Group Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com   Full Transcript:  00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.   [music]   00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.   00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.   00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.   01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking.    02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.   03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.   03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.”    04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?   05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah. 05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.   06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex? 06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah. 06:46 Daniel: Okay. 06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.   07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying? 07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.   07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…   07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.” 08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.   08:18 Sarah: Thank you   08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.   08:56 Sarah: Yep   08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?   09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me? 09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.   09:28 Sarah: Yeah.   09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.” 10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know?    11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift.    11:29 Sarah: Yeah. 11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?   11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody. 12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.   12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.   13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.   13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know? 14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.   14:52 Sarah: Yeah.   14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”   14:57 Sarah: That’s true.   14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up?    15:03 Sarah: Good question.   15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>   15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?”    15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.   17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage,    17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.   17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017? 17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah. 17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this. 17:25 Sarah: Yeah. 17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...   17:31 Sarah: Yeah. 17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?   17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..   18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at? 18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right? 19:20 Daniel: Exactly. 19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.   19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out. 19:33Sarah: Yeah. 19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered? 19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right?    20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you? 21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that.    21:43 Sarah: Sure.   21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it. 21:51 Sarah: Yeah. 21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present.    22:05 Sarah: Yeah.    22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse? 22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know?    22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.   22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know? 23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to... 23:14 Sarah: Yeah!   23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.   23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way. 23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.   23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.   23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--   23:37 Sarah: Yeah   23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.   24:00 Sarah: Yeah. 24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--   24:27 Sarah: Sure.   24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]   24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.   24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?” 24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding... 25:14 Daniel: [laughs]   25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…   26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.” 26:17 Sarah: [laughs]   26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.   26:31 Sarah: Yeah.   26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?   26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.” 26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.   26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”   27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.   27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”   27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”   28:28 Sarah: Exactly.   28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.   28:53 Sarah: Yeah. 28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.   28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being.    29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing.    30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.   31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this.    31:45 Sarah: Yeah. 31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.   31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,   32:11 Daniel: Yes   32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know? 32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,   32:45 Sarah: Yeah   32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--   32:51 Sarah: Yeah   32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.” 33:07 Sarah: Yeah. 33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you? 33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.   33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally.    34:01 Sarah: Yeah.   34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just... 34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now. 35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.   35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right? 35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right. 35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here? 36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep. 36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book? 36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.   36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”   37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.   37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah. 37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?   38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.   40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends? 40:28 Sarah: Yeah. 40:29 Daniel: What happened there? 40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it.    41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective.    42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.   42:35 Sarah: So yeah. 42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative. 42:36 Sarah: No.   42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.   42:38 Sarah: No, yeah. 42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out. 42:43 Sarah: Yeah. 42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent. 42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know? 43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through? 44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…   44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--   44:31 Sarah: [laughs]   44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage.    44:45 Sarah: Yeah.   44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it? 44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget.    45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily.    46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.”    46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey.    47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.   48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly? 48:39 Sarah: Yeah. 48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology.    48:54 Sarah: Yeah.   48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley, 48:58: Oh, man. 48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach. 49:03Sarah: Yeah. 49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware. 49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah. 49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.   49:34 Sarah: Yeah. 49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.   49:59 Sarah: Yeah. 50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”   50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.   50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right. 50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did. 50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”   50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.   50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.   50:33 Sarah: Yes. 50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.   51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago.    51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn? 51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn.    52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that.    52:58 Sarah: Yeah. 53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.   53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story. 53:18 Daniel: Thank you.   53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].   53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly, 53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.   53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--   53:25 Sarah: Saved me. 53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah. 53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome. [music]  

In today's episode, Nick Warnes has a dialogue with Daniel So about shrewdness. Daniel So is a co-founding pastor of Anchor City Church in San Diego, where he is also Director of Cyclical San Diego, a network of people helping support and encourage new churches in San Diego County. Daniel also is a Cohort Director of Cyclical PCC, through which he gathers and trains church starters in Canada. Daniel serves on the Advisory Board of Justice Ventures International, a non-profit organization fighting human trafficking and modern-day slavery. Please review this episode, subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend! Make sure to visit our website, cyclicalinc.com. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cyclical-podcast/message

Daniel: So Hana, tell me, do you cook much?Hana: Yes, I always cook. I often cook with my roommate, and we always make Chinese or Japanese food. How about you?Daniel: Well, I don't really cook that often. I'm really busy during the week. So, I always just get something at the shop and get that. But, during the weekends, I always cook during the weekends because I really like making food. That's what I do.Hana: So, do you ever eat out?Daniel: Only occasionally, because I'm really busy during the week, and I prefer cooking, so not really often. I don't go out really often to eat. Whenever I'm tired, and I don't have time to cook during the week, I go and eat out with a friend, so! How about you?Hana: Well, I always , so I normally go and eat out during the weekend with my friends or family.Daniel: So do you ever buy take-away?Hana: No, I never. Normally when I go out to eat, I like to sit and enjoy my food. How about you?Daniel: Well, that's really nice. Of course, I do like to sit and enjoy my food, but I have to admit that occasionally I have to buy take-away, especially when I'm coming late from work, and I'm driving. I'm so hungry that, most of the time, I don't really make it home, so I have to buy something on my way, and that's a shame, so that's the way it is.And do you usually have people over for dinner?Hana: Yes, I sometimes do. I really like cooking so occasionally I invite my friends over and cook for them or we all cook together. How about you?Daniel: Not really. I do love cooking, but the problem is my place is really small, so even though I want to invite my friends. I never do it, because my place would only fit one or two people. So, unfortunately, I never have my friends over for dinner.

Daniel: So Hana, tell me, do you cook much?Hana: Yes, I always cook. I often cook with my roommate, and we always make Chinese or Japanese food. How about you?Daniel: Well, I don't really cook that often. I'm really busy during the week. So, I always just get something at the shop and get that. But, during the weekends, I always cook during the weekends because I really like making food. That's what I do.Hana: So, do you ever eat out?Daniel: Only occasionally, because I'm really busy during the week, and I prefer cooking, so not really often. I don't go out really often to eat. Whenever I'm tired, and I don't have time to cook during the week, I go and eat out with a friend, so! How about you?Hana: Well, I always , so I normally go and eat out during the weekend with my friends or family.Daniel: So do you ever buy take-away?Hana: No, I never. Normally when I go out to eat, I like to sit and enjoy my food. How about you?Daniel: Well, that's really nice. Of course, I do like to sit and enjoy my food, but I have to admit that occasionally I have to buy take-away, especially when I'm coming late from work, and I'm driving. I'm so hungry that, most of the time, I don't really make it home, so I have to buy something on my way, and that's a shame, so that's the way it is.And do you usually have people over for dinner?Hana: Yes, I sometimes do. I really like cooking so occasionally I invite my friends over and cook for them or we all cook together. How about you?Daniel: Not really. I do love cooking, but the problem is my place is really small, so even though I want to invite my friends. I never do it, because my place would only fit one or two people. So, unfortunately, I never have my friends over for dinner.

Teacher Zdenek's book recommendation: Practical Everyday English. A very unique book to learn English. I decided to interview Zdenek, the English teacher because we also need to get out of our comfort zone and speak. We can't always cover behind single English expressions.Links:https://www.teacherzdenek.com/youtubehttps://www.scottholmesmusic.com/https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Everyday-English-Steven-Collins/dp/0952835827(I don't get any commissions)Full transcript:Hi, I'm teachers' Zdenek from Zdenek's English podcast and you're listening to the vocab man.I am the vocab man and this podcast is going to help you to learn different expressions like in episode two, the expression "gotcha" I finally got you your little rat. "Gotcha" Or in episode 35 "batshit crazy" I just kind of think of how bat shit crazy the whole thing... This time, we are going to change things a little bit up and have a discussion with teachers Zdenek.It goes without saying that you are going to learn something anyways.The thing is the other day I saw you commenting on the Discord platform in which I am a member of the group called learn English online and actually you gave some advice to an English learner there. Apparently she has been preparing herself for the Certificate in Advanced English.-----LINK: https://discord.gg/jaQzatxzg4 Join our group and le'ts practice English together!------...and this person didn't think she was already prepared for an exam. She pointed out that she would have a lack of vocabulary. You wrote something like I can recommend you a very good book to boost your vocabulary you remember?Zdenek: It must be the book that I recommend to everyone because I know it personally helped me and I think it's quite useful for high level learners. So I do remember which book I keep recommending but I don't remember this particular post you're referring to. I think it was back mid November already.Daniel: So that got me thinking and now I have the opportunity to talk to you. I'm super curious: why do you find it useful and very unique ?Zdenek:okay. Well I think the book is called practical everyday English. Let me just check it because there are a lot of books that have a similar name. I think the answer Daniel is in the title itself, yeah. Practical everyday English. And it was written by Steven Collins and it's actually a series of books, which are divided by levels as well. So the first one is. The blue book, I referred to it as the blue book and it's suitable for B2 level learners.So upper intermediate level learners. And then after that, you've got a belief that I could red book and green book. Yeah. I think there's a red book for advanced learners. And then there's a green book for high-level learners. Yeah. So it's it kind of corresponds to C1 and C2. And I really liked this book because it's a unique way to teach vocabulary.As the title suggests it's quite practical. So the way this works is that you have got different units. And in each unit that has, a certain number of expressions that you learn. So let's say it's about 15 or 20. I don't know exactly. And they seem to be seemingly unconnected.3:06Yeah. So it's like kind of all over the place. So it's a bit of phrasal verbs, some idioms and just, you know a bit of slang as well. So it's, it seems like the author of the book tried try to go for expressions that are used a lot, you know, that's why it's called practical everyday English. So these are expressions that perhaps you wouldn't find, sometimes you wouldn't find them necessarily in a classic course book.Yeah. Like some of those slang expressions perhaps some of the idioms. And, so the way this works is that you've got an entry of vocabulary entry. Let's say they teach you the expression to kick the bucket. I don't know if it's there, but let's just have an example. And then3:50 the expression is explained that there's a meaning, there's an example and then you learn the next one but what, what the author did is very cool actually, because every single example from that point on, from then on every single example contains one of the words from the previous units.You see? So in the follow... so you would be learning, let's say a phrasal verb "to throw away". As the next one. Yeah. And you would have an example sentence, which would also contain "to kick the bucket" in it. I don't know how you would do that. That's just, I'm just, trying to come up with some sort of a silly example, but you know how it works, revise the older vocabulary words you were learning quickly by learning the new one.4:40Exactly. But it's as if you don't almost have a choice because you always see the previous expressions, you will always see them. So the author keeps reminding you because that's the thing with learning new vocabulary. We just forget, we forget easily but you need to reinforce it as we say.4:58 Yeah. It's not enough to just learn it once. And then use it. I don't know, 10 minutes later, it's not enough. This is a very cool method and I have to say it really helped me personally as well because I've learned a lot of expressions from that series of books and I can only recommend it.5:19 And where did you find out about that book? I think I was looking for some material to use in my English classes and I probably just came across it by chance. I assume.I don't think anybody had ever told me about this. Do you remember when you bought it? That's a good question. I'm looking at it online and it says here it's originally published in 1993. Since then it must have been revised a few times. I assume.5:46 I think I bought this eight years ago and I think I bought the first book first and I liked it so much that I bought the following ones and I also bought it for some of my friends as a gift because it's that good. Like this is really cool.To be continued... If you need the transcript just write a very short message at myfluentpodcast@gmail.comThen I will know, that there is actually somebody out there reading the transcript. Then I will upload the rest (because it's a lot of work and I don't want it to do if nobody reads it, thanks). Thank you for listening. Daniel

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey Hana, how are you?Hana: I'm fine, thank you.Daniel: So tell me, you lived in London, right?Hana: Yes.Daniel: Well, I'm planning to go to London and I'm really looking forward to it. But I'm not really sure and I don't really know what to expect and what I can see there, can you tell me a little bit, please?Hana: Yeah, sure. London is a very interesting place. It's a place where a lot of cultures are mixed. There are lots of historic buildings, for example, Buckingham Palace and Big Ben. There is a very famous museum called the British Museum. And a lot of people come and visit every year.Daniel: That's really good because I'm really interested in history and I really want to see the history there. But is there any other thing that I should see in London or I should try in London, for example, is there any good local British food?Hana: Well, England isn't very famous for food, but it is famous because a lot of food from different countries is all gathered. For example, there's a very good place called The Camden Market and you can go and buy food from all over the world.Daniel: Good, that sounds really interesting, really looking forward to it. Thank you.Hana: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey Hana, how are you?Hana: I'm fine, thank you.Daniel: So tell me, you lived in London, right?Hana: Yes.Daniel: Well, I'm planning to go to London and I'm really looking forward to it. But I'm not really sure and I don't really know what to expect and what I can see there, can you tell me a little bit, please?Hana: Yeah, sure. London is a very interesting place. It's a place where a lot of cultures are mixed. There are lots of historic buildings, for example, Buckingham Palace and Big Ben. There is a very famous museum called the British Museum. And a lot of people come and visit every year.Daniel: That's really good because I'm really interested in history and I really want to see the history there. But is there any other thing that I should see in London or I should try in London, for example, is there any good local British food?Hana: Well, England isn't very famous for food, but it is famous because a lot of food from different countries is all gathered. For example, there's a very good place called The Camden Market and you can go and buy food from all over the world.Daniel: Good, that sounds really interesting, really looking forward to it. Thank you.Hana: You're welcome.

Full transcript below!Because, like you said, you can be really down and out what you put on one of those records and it really will lift your spirits up. And I have never found anything that could lift your spirits, like gospel our spiritual music. Daniel: Hello guys. This is Daniel. I am the vocab man. You are listening to fluent vocabulary, eventually giggling and laughing and everything. You do feel a lot better. So from a mental or mental, emotional standpoint, it lifts your spirits. Uh, people tend to be more resilient. From a mental or mental, emotional standpoint, it lifts your spirits. Daniel: With this episode, I'm going to try to lift your spirits guys because sometimes we feel a bit depressed because maybe our language journey doesn't go on. As we wished. So you probably didn't catch every single word because the speakers tends to speak really fast. But the good news here is that the transcription is waiting for you. That way you can read along while listening to this podcast. And besides that there are several applications, apps at your disposal, which allow you to reduce the speed of the audio file. And that way you can understand even better. And I recommend that you listen to the episode several times. I'm pretty sure if you follow these instructions, your English is gonna take to the roof. So I think your spirits are already, should be lifted by now.as I said before, it's a great posture to just kind of lift your spirits, give the body a little energetic cleanse, great for the lower back.Daniel: And, um, we'll talk more about the benefits of this posture over on the website. And as you could already guess to lift one spirits means to make one feel happier or more carefree. And where did we come across these expression? Well I was listening to a YouTube channel to Zdenek's English podcast, he explains different expressions and he's doing a great job our there, and I could learn a bunch of things. Thanks to him. I'm going to show you what I mean. Zdenek: Maybe for you Monday is still that least favorite day. Well, if that is the case, I'm here to lift your spirits. How do I do that? Well, by explaining to you. What the phrase to lift your spirits means. So to lift somebody's spirits, it pretty much means to cheer someone up.So if somebody is not feeling very well, perhaps they are a little bit depressed or sad or bored or something, you can lift their spirits by doing something that will make them happier. Alright, so to lift somebody's spirits means to make somebody feel happier. You can also lift the spirits in English. That's also possible to say, alright, how do you lift your spirits? If you're not feeling very happy.Daniel: So, That was Zenek. And well, all right, when I don't feel very happy, I lift my spirits by cooking something and eating something I really like. And speaking about food.My hearty result with succulent sausages, fresh fennel, red wine, and Hazel nuts will lift your spirits to the snow top mountains.So in my case, eating pizza with red vine , Really cheers me up or makes me kind of feel better. So listening to a humorous podcast might cheer you up maybe.Wether,you they had a tough day or a good day. There are real positive things and it does switch your mood and the beauty of having a gratitude journal and everything in it is that if you are having a bad day, guess what? You can flip through it. And you can take a look at some past gratitudes to lift your spirits up. Thank you for tuning in. This is Daniel. You were listening to Fluent vocabulary. Have a good one.Zdenek's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A83pvuhh4wwww.myfluentpodcast.com

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey Hana, you know, I had a horrible dream last night, horrible.Hana: Really, what is it about?Daniel: Well I can't tell you because it might become true so I'm not going tell, I'm just going to tell you I had a horrible dream, that's it.Hana: No, no, you have to tell me like I heard that you have to tell otherwise that will come true.Daniel: No, no, it's the opposite, trust me. So, do you dream a lot?Hana: Ahm, well yes, I usually remember my dream every day but I forget it so I don't really remember it now.Daniel: Oh because, you know, I've been reading a lot about dreams because lately I've been dreaming a lot and people said that you dream every single night but the difference is whether if you remember the dream or not, so do you know that?Hana: Yeah, I read something similar to that. I heard that you dream seven dreams like seven different stories.Daniel: Seven?Hana: Yeah and you only remember the fourth and fifth dream.Daniel: Why is that?Hana: I don't know, you only can remember the fourth or fifth so that's why sometimes when you have a dream, there are many different stories.Daniel: So that means if what we read is true it's like we dream every night and every night we dream seven different stories.Hana: Yes and I heard it's good if you write your dreams down while you remember it and it's really interesting.Daniel: Yeah it is but even if you remember the dreams because that has happened to me, you wake up, you remember the dream but really quickly and really say you forget the dream. Has that happen to you?Hana: Yeah, that happens to me a lot that's why I think really should keep a diary of my dreams because I heard a lot of things that you dream about can be hints for your life or what you're thinking.Daniel: Oh that's really interesting so well, I think I'm going to get a notebook or something and keep it, you know, on my bedside table.Hana: Yeah, me too.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey Hana, you know, I had a horrible dream last night, horrible.Hana: Really, what is it about?Daniel: Well I can't tell you because it might become true so I'm not going tell, I'm just going to tell you I had a horrible dream, that's it.Hana: No, no, you have to tell me like I heard that you have to tell otherwise that will come true.Daniel: No, no, it's the opposite, trust me. So, do you dream a lot?Hana: Ahm, well yes, I usually remember my dream every day but I forget it so I don't really remember it now.Daniel: Oh because, you know, I've been reading a lot about dreams because lately I've been dreaming a lot and people said that you dream every single night but the difference is whether if you remember the dream or not, so do you know that?Hana: Yeah, I read something similar to that. I heard that you dream seven dreams like seven different stories.Daniel: Seven?Hana: Yeah and you only remember the fourth and fifth dream.Daniel: Why is that?Hana: I don't know, you only can remember the fourth or fifth so that's why sometimes when you have a dream, there are many different stories.Daniel: So that means if what we read is true it's like we dream every night and every night we dream seven different stories.Hana: Yes and I heard it's good if you write your dreams down while you remember it and it's really interesting.Daniel: Yeah it is but even if you remember the dreams because that has happened to me, you wake up, you remember the dream but really quickly and really say you forget the dream. Has that happen to you?Hana: Yeah, that happens to me a lot that's why I think really should keep a diary of my dreams because I heard a lot of things that you dream about can be hints for your life or what you're thinking.Daniel: Oh that's really interesting so well, I think I'm going to get a notebook or something and keep it, you know, on my bedside table.Hana: Yeah, me too.

Happy Finish's CEO Daniel Cheetham's XR bread and butter was virtual experiences and LBEs, until the COVID-19 pandemic forced people to stay indoors. Now, he explains, he's exploring the power VR has to help enterprise and the environment. Alan: Hey, everyone, Alan Smithson here. Today, we're speaking with Daniel Cheetham, CEO of Happy Finish, a creative technology and content firm based in London, UK. They've done XR experiences for Ford, Exxon Mobil, and many more. We will learn today how they're using digital twins to add real business value. All that and more, coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Daniel, welcome to the show, my friend. Daniel: Thanks for having me. Alan: It's my absolute pleasure. I've been looking forward to having you on the show for so long. It's really exciting, the stuff you guys have done. You've done everything from putting people from the real world into VR on a bicycle, to help give them a sense of what it's like to be on the other side of a driving scenario. You've done all sorts of things. Tell us, what is Happy Finish? Daniel: So, Happy Finish -- or HF, as we're now more commonly referring to ourselves -- we're really in the space of creating content and experiences for grand clients, right from the very beginning. And this is second hand information; I joined Happy Finish about six, six and a half years ago. Now the business is fifteen years old. We have been employing post-production and CGI techniques to create versions of the real world -- or different flavors of the real world -- over the last six to seven years. I think we built a reputation in the immersive technology space. We started working really early on with the DK-1 from Kickstarter, testing, playing around with Unity, seeing what we could do, up to now where we're easily 200+ commercially funded, brand funded XR experiences. And we work across the whole gamut of immersive tech, from 360 video -- which is less the flavor of the month now -- through to real time based experiences across Microsoft Hololens 2, and in AR. Alan: I've got a call one thing, that I saw here on your site, and I just got to ask: VR bungee jumping? Daniel: [laughs] One of my crazy ideas. It was in the context, we were chatting -- watercooler moment -- chatting about how we could make some noise about untethered VR, particularly around the Oculus Quest. And it just dawned on me as well, what better way to really test what can be done in untethered VR, than tether it to a bungee rope and have somebody jump off a bungee platform? Alan: So were you the first one to try this? Daniel: I wasn't, actually. We a couple of guinea pigs who put their hand up first, but I did try it in the end. It was not without its challenges. We were really putting the tracking system on the Quest to its absolute limits. And so on a few occasions, it was bungee jumping with a blindfold, rather than in VR. Alan: [laughs] Still pretty amazing that you even bit that off. So was it a brand activation, or was this just an internal--? Daniel: This is an in-house piece for us. And back until very recently, an area of focus for us was LB. So we've created a number of -- I think -- pretty recognizable motion platform based VR experiences. One that I know got a lot of sharing couple of years ago, that lives at the top of The Shard -- the tallest building here in London -- where the user will fly virtually -- or slide virtually -- around the top of The Shard. We got a lot of screamers and yeah, we had a real focus on building out that as a product. We have four or five of these VR slides around the world now. However, LB has taken somewhat of a hit --

Happy Finish’s CEO Daniel Cheetham’s XR bread and butter was virtual experiences and LBEs, until the COVID-19 pandemic forced people to stay indoors. Now, he explains, he’s exploring the power VR has to help enterprise and the environment. Alan: Hey, everyone, Alan Smithson here. Today, we're speaking with Daniel Cheetham, CEO of Happy Finish, a creative technology and content firm based in London, UK. They've done XR experiences for Ford, Exxon Mobil, and many more. We will learn today how they're using digital twins to add real business value. All that and more, coming up next on the XR for Business podcast. Daniel, welcome to the show, my friend. Daniel: Thanks for having me. Alan: It's my absolute pleasure. I've been looking forward to having you on the show for so long. It's really exciting, the stuff you guys have done. You've done everything from putting people from the real world into VR on a bicycle, to help give them a sense of what it's like to be on the other side of a driving scenario. You've done all sorts of things. Tell us, what is Happy Finish? Daniel: So, Happy Finish -- or HF, as we're now more commonly referring to ourselves -- we're really in the space of creating content and experiences for grand clients, right from the very beginning. And this is second hand information; I joined Happy Finish about six, six and a half years ago. Now the business is fifteen years old. We have been employing post-production and CGI techniques to create versions of the real world -- or different flavors of the real world -- over the last six to seven years. I think we built a reputation in the immersive technology space. We started working really early on with the DK-1 from Kickstarter, testing, playing around with Unity, seeing what we could do, up to now where we're easily 200+ commercially funded, brand funded XR experiences. And we work across the whole gamut of immersive tech, from 360 video -- which is less the flavor of the month now -- through to real time based experiences across Microsoft Hololens 2, and in AR. Alan: I've got a call one thing, that I saw here on your site, and I just got to ask: VR bungee jumping? Daniel: [laughs] One of my crazy ideas. It was in the context, we were chatting -- watercooler moment -- chatting about how we could make some noise about untethered VR, particularly around the Oculus Quest. And it just dawned on me as well, what better way to really test what can be done in untethered VR, than tether it to a bungee rope and have somebody jump off a bungee platform? Alan: So were you the first one to try this? Daniel: I wasn't, actually. We a couple of guinea pigs who put their hand up first, but I did try it in the end. It was not without its challenges. We were really putting the tracking system on the Quest to its absolute limits. And so on a few occasions, it was bungee jumping with a blindfold, rather than in VR. Alan: [laughs] Still pretty amazing that you even bit that off. So was it a brand activation, or was this just an internal--? Daniel: This is an in-house piece for us. And back until very recently, an area of focus for us was LB. So we've created a number of -- I think -- pretty recognizable motion platform based VR experiences. One that I know got a lot of sharing couple of years ago, that lives at the top of The Shard -- the tallest building here in London -- where the user will fly virtually -- or slide virtually -- around the top of The Shard. We got a lot of screamers and yeah, we had a real focus on building out that as a product. We have four or five of these VR slides around the world now. However, LB has taken somewhat of a hit --

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: So we're talking about holidays. Is there any really, really good holidays that you remember?Hana: Well, one of my favorite holidays was when I went to Greece a couple of years ago with my family.Daniel: Wow, Greece, I've never been there. How is it? Sounds really, really nice.Hana: Greece is a very beautiful country. The houses are ... everything is so white and the beaches are so beautiful.Daniel: So what did you do in Greece?Hana: Mainly I just relaxed at the swimming pool and at the beaches. And at night time I went shopping with my mum. And we had some really nice food too.Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, like the perfect holidays. So you said you went with your family, right?Hana: Yes, I went with my mum and dad and brother.Daniel: And for how long did you go there?Hana: We went for four days. And when we went there was a big football tournament. And so everybody was so happy and excited. And at night times everybody will start dancing. And so me and my brother, we would join and dance with them.Daniel: Cool! So did you get to see any of those matches of the tournament?Hana: Yes, I went to see one match with my dad and I had so much fun.Daniel: Oh, it sounds really cool, like really nice holidays.Hana: Yes, it was one of my best holidays.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: So we're talking about holidays. Is there any really, really good holidays that you remember?Hana: Well, one of my favorite holidays was when I went to Greece a couple of years ago with my family.Daniel: Wow, Greece, I've never been there. How is it? Sounds really, really nice.Hana: Greece is a very beautiful country. The houses are ... everything is so white and the beaches are so beautiful.Daniel: So what did you do in Greece?Hana: Mainly I just relaxed at the swimming pool and at the beaches. And at night time I went shopping with my mum. And we had some really nice food too.Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, like the perfect holidays. So you said you went with your family, right?Hana: Yes, I went with my mum and dad and brother.Daniel: And for how long did you go there?Hana: We went for four days. And when we went there was a big football tournament. And so everybody was so happy and excited. And at night times everybody will start dancing. And so me and my brother, we would join and dance with them.Daniel: Cool! So did you get to see any of those matches of the tournament?Hana: Yes, I went to see one match with my dad and I had so much fun.Daniel: Oh, it sounds really cool, like really nice holidays.Hana: Yes, it was one of my best holidays.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey, Vella, how are you?Vella: I'm good. How are you?Daniel: I'm fine thanks. Is there, like do you remember any time where you've been really sad or angry or embarrassed?Vella: Yeah. Actually it happened before I came here. I had a huge fight with my father, dad, and yeah we had a disagreement about something and I, well I had a disagreement with my aunt which is my dad's sister and my dad just kind of took her side instead of my side and I was really disappointed in him and I lost my temper and I started hitting the window and it kind of broke and my dad was...Daniel: Wait a minute. You broke the window because you were angry?Vella: I did.Daniel: OK.Vella: I really lost my, you know, control and my dad he started crying and, you know, seeing him cry was really, you know, painful.Daniel: Wow. I didn't know you were that kind of person that could break a window.Vella: You know when I lose my temper, I tend to do, you know, things that are out of control but yeah.Daniel: But what was the whole argument about? Do you think it would have that result like where you break a window because of an argument with your dad?Vella: Well, I think it was just because I was really disappointed that he took, you know, my aunt's side instead of my side.Daniel: Hm, hm.Vella: And he was saying stuff like, you know, it's all my faultand, you know, he was really disappointed in me so I was really sad that he said that and, yeah, I lost my temper and started hitting.Daniel: OK, how about being embarrassed? Do you remember any time where you were really embarrassed?Vella: Yeah, I think in high school. So there's this guy I have a huge crush on and I was walking down the stairs and, you know, he saw me and, you know, I was acting like awkwardly and there was a big plant in front of me and I didn't see it because I was, you know, too busy looking at him and I kind of tripped over and it was really embarrassing and everyone was laughing and that guy, you know, saw me.Daniel: That's the worse thing.Vella: Falling like in front of your crush, I think that will be really embarrassing.Daniel: OK, what did you do afterwards?Vella: Well I just acted cool, you know, and said I'm fine and just left.Daniel: Wow, that must be really difficult?Vella: Because I was trying to, you know, look pretty as I walked down the stairs and I didn't see the plant in front of me.Daniel: So after that did you ever get that guy to like you?Vella: Well actually he, you know, he came up to me and he was asking if I was OK and we ended up exchanging numbers.Daniel: So that was a success?Vella: Yeah, it was a success.Daniel: OK, that's pretty good.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Daniel: Hey, Vella, how are you?Vella: I'm good. How are you?Daniel: I'm fine thanks. Is there, like do you remember any time where you've been really sad or angry or embarrassed?Vella: Yeah. Actually it happened before I came here. I had a huge fight with my father, dad, and yeah we had a disagreement about something and I, well I had a disagreement with my aunt which is my dad's sister and my dad just kind of took her side instead of my side and I was really disappointed in him and I lost my temper and I started hitting the window and it kind of broke and my dad was...Daniel: Wait a minute. You broke the window because you were angry?Vella: I did.Daniel: OK.Vella: I really lost my, you know, control and my dad he started crying and, you know, seeing him cry was really, you know, painful.Daniel: Wow. I didn't know you were that kind of person that could break a window.Vella: You know when I lose my temper, I tend to do, you know, things that are out of control but yeah.Daniel: But what was the whole argument about? Do you think it would have that result like where you break a window because of an argument with your dad?Vella: Well, I think it was just because I was really disappointed that he took, you know, my aunt's side instead of my side.Daniel: Hm, hm.Vella: And he was saying stuff like, you know, it's all my faultand, you know, he was really disappointed in me so I was really sad that he said that and, yeah, I lost my temper and started hitting.Daniel: OK, how about being embarrassed? Do you remember any time where you were really embarrassed?Vella: Yeah, I think in high school. So there's this guy I have a huge crush on and I was walking down the stairs and, you know, he saw me and, you know, I was acting like awkwardly and there was a big plant in front of me and I didn't see it because I was, you know, too busy looking at him and I kind of tripped over and it was really embarrassing and everyone was laughing and that guy, you know, saw me.Daniel: That's the worse thing.Vella: Falling like in front of your crush, I think that will be really embarrassing.Daniel: OK, what did you do afterwards?Vella: Well I just acted cool, you know, and said I'm fine and just left.Daniel: Wow, that must be really difficult?Vella: Because I was trying to, you know, look pretty as I walked down the stairs and I didn't see the plant in front of me.Daniel: So after that did you ever get that guy to like you?Vella: Well actually he, you know, he came up to me and he was asking if I was OK and we ended up exchanging numbers.Daniel: So that was a success?Vella: Yeah, it was a success.Daniel: OK, that's pretty good.

Have you ever wondered what it means to be a professional conversation designer? Listen as your host Douglas Ferguson and his guest Daniel Stillman, the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator, discuss what it means to be a conversation designer and much more in this episode of the Control Room Podcast. Daniel shares how he got started as a conversation designer and why he believes that everything is an active conversation. He speaks about what he would change about meetings and why having a narrative with an opening, exploration, and closing is essential in a productive conversation. Listen as Douglas and Daniel discuss impromptu networking, the best questions to ask, and the definition of appreciative inquiry. They also talk about meeting mantras and why they are so important. Daniel shares his take on why using sticky notes is so effective in the ideation process and how to translate the practice to the virtual landscape. Daniel also explains how to host a virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament; it's both crazy and fun. Order a copy of Daniel’s book Good Talk, How to Design Conversations that Matter', available now. Show Highlights [00:50] Welcome. [01:02] Daniel's journey as a conversation designer. [04:01] Teaching design thinking to non-designers. [04:48] Everything is a conversation. [07:43] Providing an interface for an important idea for a product. [08:34] One thing Daniel would change when it comes to having meetings. [11:06] A narrative is crucial in conversations–opening, exploring, and closing. [13:19] Closing out daily meetings with precision. [16:14] The power of impromptu networking to make meetings better. [19:23] Impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that you expect. [20:34] Daniel's favorite questions to ask. [22:15] Appreciative inquiry, defined. [24:23] The evolution and significance of Daniel's mantra. [26:27] Sticky note ideation heightens focus on specific concepts. [29:03] Reading the room virtually. [31:16] Virtual rock, paper, scissors tournament. [34:47] Ways to signal during virtual group gatherings. [35:48] Distributive facilitation and the future of work. [39:23] Thank you. [41:02] Waiting forever is not a good business plan for your company or your wedding. [43:24] Do large virtual meetings need comedians to keep people interested? [44:57] Daniel's book. [47:23] It has been a pleasure. [47:36] Subscribe. Links | Resources Daniel Stillman Good Talk: How to Design Conversations That Matter LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube About the Guest Daniel Stillman designs conversations for a living and insists that you actually do that too. As an independent design facilitator, he works with clients and organizations of all shapes and sizes (From Google to Visa, to name a few) to help them frame and sustain productive and collaborative conversations, deepen their facilitation skills, and coach them through the innovation process. His first book, The 30 Second Elephant and the Paper Airplane Experiment is about origami and teams and yes, it’s as strange as it sounds. He hosts The Conversation Factory podcast where he interviews leaders, changemakers, and innovators on how they design the conversations in their work and lives.   Full Transcript Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting. Douglas: Today on Control the Room Podcast, I have Daniel Stillman. Daniel Stillman is a conversation designer, and insists that you're one, too. He is the founder of the Conversation Factory and a master facilitator. Welcome to the podcast, Daniel. Daniel: Douglas, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on. Douglas: Of course. So, Daniel, I’d love to just have the listeners just hear a little bit about how you got started. Daniel: So, this is funny because I was thinking about this during our pre-conversation. You and I have known each other for a while, but there's still stuff we don't know about each other. This came up when we were having a conversation last week, where you're like, “I don't know the story behind that thing. You just assume I know that because I've known you for a couple of years,” stuff I've just never talked about. And so you've heard little snippets. So it's just kind of funny because we're friends, and now I'm telling you my story. I don’t know. Just pulling out for a second on the meta-ness of it all. Douglas: Yeah. And as you know, conversations can get weird. Daniel: Yeah, they sure can. So, wait. What was the question again? How did I—what's my origin story? Douglas: That’s right. Daniel: Was there any radioactive spiders involved in how I got my superpowers? I feel like I found my way into conversation design through design. I remember actually seeing an ad in the New York Times back when people found jobs in the New York Times’ job-wanted section. Like, that was a thing. And I remember seeing this job for an exhibit designer, and I was like, this is so cool, because I had a background in science. I had studied physics in undergrad. And this idea of designing science exhibits—I loved going to museums when I was a kid. I grew up in the Upper West Side of Manhattan. I went to the Museum of Natural History as a kid often. That's where they would just send us on a rainy day. Like, just go there. And this idea of being able to walk into a space and automatically learn just by being immersed in a space, just like, I don’t know. It kind of tickled me. And I wound up going to design school because they had a studio in science-exhibit design. And so I was super-duper excited to learn how to become a designer and how to design spaces for education. But while I was in design school, what I really learned was human-centered design. This idea that, wow, you can just go out into the world and talk to some people and learn about their problems, and then, make some stuff for them that they like, and then find out if they like it, and then, try it out again, make some test iterations. This was, like, 2005, 2006. The idea of human-centered design and design thinking we're really, I mean, nascent in design at the time. Pratt, where I went to school, was still very much form. We studied negative space and curves for entire semester-long classes. And so this idea of designing for people and designing for needs is what really inspired me. But when I got out of school and I started working in a design studio, what I realized was that I actually had to start designing—I didn't know at the time—but I was designing conversations: stakeholder-engagement workshops to try to pull intelligence out of various stakeholders to understand user needs. And so workshop design became a real passion for me. And so that's kind of how I got to where I am today was I realized that design thinking and teaching design thinking to non-designers was something that was really important. I had this fantasy. I was like, if we all knew the rules to the same game, we could play the game. Let's make something that matters together, right? And that to me are like—those are the rules of design thinking. Hey, let's empathize and understand and define and deliver. That's what I do now is I try to inspire people to be intentional about how they create. Douglas: That’s amazing. So, thinking back to when you were just post school and you were starting to have some of those early realizations that everything was a conversation, can you take us to that moment? And what was it that really clicked for you? How did that make you feel, or what was surfacing? Was there something that wasn't quite serving you at the time and you realized there needed to be more, or was it just an observation? Daniel: Actually, I can—I really remember the moment. I went to an event that my friend Jooyoung Oh was running. She was a design researcher at the time, and for many years she worked at Ziba. And at the time—I can’t remember what she was doing—but she did this workshop where she had us do collages of words and pictures that she had printed out on stickers. And we did this visual collage of “my ideal experience for blank is…,” and “my ideal experience for blank is not…” So she gave us these sheets of stickers with words and pictures on them. The pictures were evocative, emotional, suggestive. And we made these collages, and they became a focal point for a dialog. And I remember doing this and I was like, “Oh, my god, this is amazing.” And it seemed so simple. But we had this big meeting coming up with some stakeholders in the consultancy I was working on, and we were doing this big kickoff for this bug-repellent product, which I probably shouldn't talk about. And I said to my boss, he’s like, “We really need to understand all these different stakeholders and what they really think this thing should be.” And I was like, “Oh, my god, I've got a thing for that.” The language I would use now is “I have a design for that conversation.” I explained it to him a little bit, and he squinted his eyes, and he's like, “Okay.” And I'm like, “Dude, you got to trust me on this. I can land this plane. It’s going to get us good information.” And I remember going into that meeting, and we did this exercise. I remember—I literally remember printing out these sheets of these words and these stickers and these images. And one member of the stakeholder team was an engineer, and the other was a marketer. And there was a word that was placed on the is versus the isn't, in either case. The engineer did not want the experience of this chemical bug-repellent product to be magical, and the marketer thought that the experience should be magical. And so what we had was this conversation about magical and what it meant for something to be magical, and why the engineer didn't want it to be magical and why the marketer did want it to be magical. Magical to the marketer meant effortless, easy, efficacious. Boom, done—bugs are gone. And to the engineer, he's like, “If it's magical, then that means that people don't trust it. If it's magical, people don't understand why it works. If it's magical, people can't understand that it's safe and scientific.” And so just from that collaging effort, which some people would deride as goofy, mood boarding, or whatever, it provided us with an opportunity to dive into this really important conversation, which is, What do we want this thing to be, and what do we want our customers to think about it? And what we were doing was providing an interface for the conversation. If we just said, ”Hey, what do you guys want this to be?” it would have seemed like, I don’t know, one, we didn't know our stuff. But by giving them an activity to do, it pulled ideas out of their heads and put them on the wall and allowed us to unpack a really, really important idea for the project. What is magical? Douglas: That's amazing. I think that is a challenge that I see in so many meetings, where two people are using two different words to mean two different things, or they're using the same word to mean different things. And that's a real problem. And often it is not surfaced, and I think that's where a lot of these visual-thinking tools can really surface some of those things and then gives us an opportunity to discuss it. Can shape the narrative. And when I asked you about one thing that you could change about meetings, you talked about this need to have a narrative for our meetings. And just “we're having a meeting” is a flat story, and you're looking for something more dynamic. So tell us a little more about that. Daniel: Well, you were in the room when our friend Allan Chochinov, at the first masterclass, Facilitation Masterclass, you came to in New York, when Allan talked about, what was it, like, a text expander that one of his students made? Allan was an old professor of mine at Pratt. Now he runs the Products of Design program at SVA. And one of his students wrote a text expander so that whenever you write meeting, it erases it. You literally can't write the word meeting, because a meeting is a meaningless word. A meeting can mean so many different things that it means nothing. What are we doing at that meeting? Are we meeting to sing a song together? Are we going caroling. Let's meet to go caroling. Oh, let's meet to align on a decision. Let's meet to figure out what our options are. Let's meet to plan the holiday party. It doesn't mean anything. And so Allan's idea was if you don't have a prototype, you shouldn't have a meeting. If you don't have an object or an interface or a list, a thing to start the conversation off with, you shouldn't have that meeting. And so I think the story of “let's have a meeting” is just, it's a flat story, but it's also just a super-incomplete story. “Let's meet in order to blank, and let's talk about these three things, and I think that we should have process x, y,  and z  to discuss about them. Here's who can make the final decision. I'm just going to be gathering your inputs.” “Oh, okay, cool. I don't want to come to that meeting if I can't make the final decision.” Oh, interesting. Now we have tension and a cliffhanger for how this story is going to end. If you told people the real story of your meeting, most people might not even come to those meetings, which people don't like. “Well, what if I made my meetings optional? People might not come.” And I'm like, “Yeah, well, make your meetings better, make them matter, talk about something that people really care about.” Douglas: That’s amazing. Also, I think the super power of that is when you realize that there's actually multiple narratives, multiple tracks, and that you might need to divide your audience. If someone's focused more strategically and someone else more tactical, being able to split those things rather than jamming everyone together into the same conversation and creating so much discord. Daniel: Yeah. Everybody’s sitting around a table and talking over each other. And yeah, so this is why narrative is important in conversations, at least this idea of opening, exploring, and closing. Years after people come to my Facilitation workshops, the one thing people remember, they forget most things, but the one thing they remember is this idea of opening, exploring, and closing, and having time to both open or diverge and close and converge and making some time in the middle for something interesting to emerge. And I absorbed that idea from Dave Gray's coauthored book, Gamestorming, just the importance of having those three modes of thinking. And I think having that baked into the process and communicating that to people, it just means that we expect that something interesting and surprising will happen. Otherwise, just make a video. Just make a video of what you've decided and just tell everybody. Douglas: It’s fascinating because Dave Gray talks about the explorer section also being referred to as the groan zone because no one typically enjoys it. But the funny thing is most people, their meetings just consist of explorer. Let's just start exploring when we walk in the door, and then we explore until we have to walk out of the door. And that's really unfortunate if you don't give people that time, that boot-up time. I just recently read a book on facilitation that was talking about—they were talking about it as clearing, which I thought was a really fascinating way to think about an opener, is allowing people to clear themselves and get ready for the meeting to start. Daniel: Well, you’re basically closing before you can open. As we all know, if you don't close, you can't open the next—like, if you don't—and I'm sure you've seen this in sprints, right? If people don't close on day one, mapping the problem, it's really hard to open on day two, finding a target. And if you don't close on a target, it makes drawing a set of solutions really, really super hard. And if you refuse to close on a smaller number of prototypes, it means that your last day of the sprint’s going to be a bear because you test everything. Douglas: Yeah. And we've often talked about how critical closing is in the kind of more macro sense as well, because if you aren’t closing out your everyday meetings with precision, then it's really difficult to align on anything. The real, I think pathological cases, when you walk out thinking you're aligned, but you're not, and so everyone else is telling a different narrative. And you were all in the same meeting, so it should sound like it. Daniel: The cost is even higher than that, Douglas, because internally—I think one of the reasons why people pay an external facilitator, one reason why people hire me and hire you, is to create urgency. “Douglas is here. We’ve paid him. It’s expensive. Everyone stop what you’re doing. We have to focus now.” When people have an internal meeting, their urgency isn’t there. There’s no burning platform, like Kotter talks about. There’s no urgency. And so if you don’t close, you push off decisions. And work is a gas. A gas at standard pressure and temperature expands to fill the space available to it. So time creates pressure, and a sprint or a workshop reduces the volume of space we have to it. And if we don't cap things off or tie them off and say that this is the decision we're going to have, and now we're going to move on to the next phase, it's very idealistic to say these things. It is really hard to do, right? It's really hard to say, okay, well, let's just try this thing, or let's move on to the next thing, even though we don't feel we're ready. I hate doing it. I still tell my clients to do it because it's hard. I know it's important to do, and I struggle with it myself. But if we don't do that, what happens is we wind up working nights and weekends. That's the cost—not seeing our families. If we can close in the time that we have proposed, then we can have the rest of our lives back. Douglas: Yeah, well, it's interesting. You talked about it being hard, but the answer really is to disagree and commit. If we can come together and not rely on unanimity, this desire to have everyone agree, then we can get to a point where there is a decision, we're all going to support it, and we're going to see what comes out. And I think the thing that I try to coach people on is there’re one-way doors and two-way doors. So if it's a reversible decision, then why are we working weekends to get this? Daniel: Right. Having kids is not the same thing as, where should we go for vacation? Where you go to vacation is still a reversible because you've gone and you've spent that money; you've gone on that vacation. But you can always just leave early. You know, you can cancel a vacation halfway through. You're like, “I hate it here. Let's go someplace else.” But it is very hard to cancel, not to get into any politics, but once you've got the kid, it's really hard to cancel it. Douglas: That's right. Daniel: Still not impossible. All my friends who are adopted, it's a thing. But it creates repercussions. Douglas: Let’s shift gear a little bit here and talk about impromptu networking. It is a really powerful way to make meetings better. And why is that? Daniel: Oh, right, right, right. This was my—actually, it’s funny. I was only a light dabbler in liberating structures before I worked with you. I remember looking at the website, and I know many people have had this experience of, this is a crazy place on the Internet. You get to the website, and you’re like, wow, there’s a lot of interesting stuff here, but this looks like the ravings of a madman. And having met Keith, I still actually have that same opinion. It is definitely the ravings of a madman. And I had done things like that before. I had started most of my workshops in my early days with “Grab someone and tell them a story, and then, listen to their story,” because creating energy in a workshop or a meeting is a hard job, and it shouldn't be the job, the sole job, the sole responsibility of the facilitator. As I like to say, it's everybody's problem we're here to solve. It's just not my problem, presumably. If people are here, they're buying into the problem. So starting with a conversation or a story or a reflection about an important component of it is really, really great. Plus, conversations are complex, and so the fewer number of people in the conversation, the less complex it can feel. And so if you've got a group of five or ten or fifteen, pairing up with somebody just immediately simplifies the conversation and makes it more intimate. I was talking with somebody today about this. He used to be a teacher. And this “think, pair, share,” which I thought I invented because it rhymes, and I thought I was clever, this is baked into Harvard University’s education best practices initiative. And every teacher already knows this. Think to grab a partner and talk to them about blank. It's just such an easy reflex. But I see so many facilitators who try to wrangle a group as a large mass of people, and I just don't think it works. You have to be—it takes a lot of strength. This is a total side note, but I love telling this story. Have you seen The Princess Bride movie? Douglas: Mm-hmm. Daniel: Yeah. There's the scene where Fezzik and the Man in Black are fighting as Vizzini is escaping with Buttercup. And they've just climbed up the wall, the Cliffs of Insanity, and they're about to face off. And spoiler alert—Fezzik loses. And he realizes halfway through the fight why he's having such a hard time. He's like, “I haven't done one-to-one combat in so long. I'm used to fighting groups of people. You have to use different techniques.” And I think of impromptu networking as a really, really great group-fighting technique, because it doesn't matter if you've got two people or ten people or a hundred people, you say, “Okay, everybody grab a partner and have a quick conversation about blank.” And then the room is filled with energy that you did not have to create. People are connecting to other people, they're learning from each other, and then it's up to you to do the next thing, which is take that energy and funnel it, direct it, focus it towards the next activity, get people to do something with that inspiration and that information and that connection that they've gotten from other people at the moment. Douglas: Yeah. And we often talk about modeling behavior. And I think impromptu networking is a great way to model the participation that we expect. So we get them at ease with participating and gaining that human connection that they so need. And especially in the virtual world, it's really critical to start setting some of those expectations, because people aren't used to doing it when they're tuning in the virtual webinars and stuff. Daniel: Oh, my god, I know. I did that with a workshop, super-duper early in the meeting. And one of the reasons why I like to do it early is this idea of antifragile openings. If somebody shows up five or ten or fifteen minutes late, they can still float in, weave in to the second or third pairing. And this woman was like, “I knew you would do breakout rooms. I didn't think it would happen so soon.” I'm like, “Yeah, if you show up 20 minutes late to this workshop, you're going to miss something, but you're not going to miss everything. You're still going to be able to get some…” She was able to come into the third pairing in impromptu networking. Douglas: For sure. And impromptu networking only works if you have a good invitation, and your prompt has to be tight. This means that you have to have a good question. So Daniel, what are your favorite questions? Daniel: Oh, man. That's my favorite question. That’s definitely my favorite question. I actually asked that of somebody on a recent podcast episode that I was hosting, on my Conversation Factory podcast. I interviewed Cameron Yarbrough, who has a scaled coaching platform called Torch.io. And his favorite question to ask people is, what are your blind spots? And boy, oh boy, that's a really—I mean, technically an impossible question to answer yourself, but it's a really, really interesting one. He described it as a cone, like a Zen question that is unanswerable but interesting. And so good questions can be like that. I think the other easy, easy question is, tell me a story about blank. Just tell me a story when you last blank, or tell me a story about how you have blanked. Or just go straight to story because stories evoke emotions and empathy. So don't just say, “Tell me a story of when you were at your best.” It's a hard question to answer still, but it's a really interesting one, and it evokes interesting reactions for people. And that's why I think focusing on positivity over negativity is always hard. Douglas: Absolutely. That was the thing I was going to bring up next, actually, was the fact that I'm a huge fan of, if your questions can be appreciative or express gratitude, that can be really amazing. And if you can make people become introspective. So think about a time when you maybe received—what's the best compliment you've ever received? So lovely. Daniel: Yeah. And just to double stitch on that, by the way, not everybody knows what appreciative inquiry is. And it's, when you look at it, if you come from design thinking or the sprint world, you look at appreciative inquiry, and you're like, it can be weird, but you're like, wait, how is this different than design thinking? And the difference is is that you only focus on the positive. And there's this idea that you can, in fact, heal a system and a person by looking at only the positives. And in my book, I actually, I found a story. I couldn't find the truth of it. I couldn't find a direct quote, but people have talked about it, this idea that—I forget the name of the Dallas Cowboys coach—but at one point during a slump, he was like, we are only going to show you your best plays. You know, they tape the plays, and they go back, and they review things. They’re like, look, we are going to review and analyze your best plays only. And it kind of flips things on its head because a lot of designers and a lot of innovators think like, oh, we're problem solving. And so if I'm problem-solving, I have to look at what's broken, and then I have to fix it. But with appreciative inquiry, there's this radical idea that I can find what's working and ask how I can magnify it and expand it. Douglas: Yeah. there's an amazing book called Super Human, and it goes into a lot of super athletes that are doing just amazing things, like free scaling mountains, and the winged airmen—the Red Bull team that just jumps off of buildings and does insane things. Daniel: Base jumpers. Douglas: Exactly. And one of the things that they discovered—and this is a phenomenon in this world—which is there is something that humans have not been able to do for decades. And the first time one human does it, like 10, 15 other humans would do it a day later, because they've shown that it's possible. It just opens up the world of, well, now I can just go to do that thing that I know—I've seen them do it. Now I can do it. Daniel: Yeah. Wow. I love that. That's really, really awesome. Douglas: And so this is similar to your mantra, Daniel: if you don't write it down, it didn't happen. So we need to be able to see it to prove it, and then we can we can double stitch on it. And we have a mantra that's similar: always capture room intelligence. So why is this so important? Daniel: Well, I, first, have to honor my friend Miles Begin, who gave me that mantra years ago, and that was when I first started teaching design thinking to non-designers. That's the whole point is if it's not on a sticky note and it's not on the wall, we can't talk about it. And having that mantra’s really helpful, especially if you have over-talkers in the room, and it's also really helpful if you have “under-talkers” in the room. If somebody’s really, really overexplaining an idea, you can say, “Hey, can you fit that on one sticky note and get it up on the wall? That is truly, truly awesome. That'll be great.” But we used to tell a story about—have you ever watched Mad Men? Douglas: Of course. Daniel: Yeah. So there's an amazing Mad Men episode where—I forget the team. It's, like, Peggy and a couple of the other people stay up all night to bang out some ideas for something. They're drinking, and they're smoking. And they finally have this amazing insight, and they're like, “Wow, that is such a great idea!” And then they go to sleep because they're satisfied. Spoiler alert—they didn't write their idea down. And so the next day, when Don Draper comes in, and Don’s like, “Okay, what’d you jerks come up with?” And they're like, “Oh, my god, we've got this great idea,” and they're looking around their desks, and they're like,  Wait a minute. What was it?” And their brains are just this empty vacuum of space. And they're like, “Oh, my god, we didn't write it down.” And they're just crestfallen. And Don's like, “I understand. That happens sometimes.” It’s one of the few moments when Don decides to be really, really human. Like, he gets it. You didn't write down the idea, and it disappeared. And so I found an old PowerPoint of mine from, like, one of the first design-thinking workshops I ever taught. And there is a scene—we found a screenshot of Don Draper and some other people, just to teach people this idea of, if you don't write down your ideas, they will disappear into the air. And this is long before I knew that conversations had interfaces and that if you use a durable interface for your conversations, not surprisingly, you can have a more-sustained conversation about it. That’s why when you get it on the wall, we can talk about it. If it's not on the wall, I'm just interpreting what I heard, and it can disappear in the air. So one of the great things about design-thinking workshops is that we create this paper trail of insights and agreements when we go from phase to phase. And if you don't do that, we're having a much floofier conversation. So it's really, really important to get things down. And if we're talking about virtual, it's actually really problematic. I mean, I love MURAL, but MURAL sticky notes are not the same thing as real sticky notes, because on a real sticky note, there's a limit to how much information I can put on the sticky note. With MURAL, you can literally write the great American essay on one sticky note and just shrink it down to infinitely small size. So, you're not as limited. We always used to tell people, oh, use Sharpie on a sticky note. That's because a Sharpie and a sticky note create one idea. But it's way too easy in virtual visual capture to put too much information into one sticky note. Douglas: You know, Daniel, that's a big debate: how much limitations did the software put on us to mimic the real world? I think that's a fascinating conversation. Daniel: I would love to be able to switch on real-sticky-note mode. Douglas: Yeah, that’d be fantastic. And I find as a facilitator, where you talked about virtual being more difficult, and this is just one example. There's a long, long list of why we have to lean in more, and it's difficult to be a lazy facilitator, virtually, whether it's we're looking to see how long the sticky notes are or we're making sure that people are connected and having to do troubleshooting and provide technical support. One of the things we spoke about, this notion of helping teams get unstuck and making sure that they continue the momentum as they leave the workshop and they go start to build their vision. And you talked about that being the magic question, just having to look around and just check and see if everything's fixed. This is something that I've talked to Erick Skogsberg quite a bit about, this notion of, from learning the science, we have to consider assessment points. What is our learning objective and making sure we've built in points of assessment so we can understand if we've gotten there. And even if you're not training people, it's important that you build this into workshops because you're taking people on a journey and you want to make sure that they're hitting the milestones, right? What do we do virtually? You and I have talked about this quite a bit, but what do the listeners need to know about virtual kind of reading the room? Daniel: Well, you have to find other feedback loops. And I think that's where—like, when we've set up MURALS for multiple tables, when you put them on separate MURALS, which I know is something you've recommended in the past, especially if you're doing a larger meeting, putting them on separate MURALS reduces the load, but it makes it harder as a facilitator to monitor multiple tables. So it's nice to have three or—if you only have 15 or 20 or 30 people to just make areas for each of the breakout rooms to work, because then you can just see everything that's happening, because while MURAL does have those preview images, as we've argued over before, the preview images don't update often enough for you to get that feedback loop, but it can be really, really simple. I've seen you do this, where you ask everybody to rename themselves in Zoom. And that's pretty meta because you're asking them to give you some information about themselves, but you're also testing whether or not they're engaged and whether or not they are interested. And if you don't see people—if you see people not doing that, then, we don't have anyplace to go because it's like, oh, they don't know how to use the tool, Zoom, and they aren't interested enough to tell you something about themselves in this area. And so it's just finding simpler, smaller feedback loops to make sure that you're moving forward with people with you, if that makes sense. Douglas: Oh, absolutely. And we've been using two facilitators in most of our workshops, with someone dedicated to looking for those signals. So they're kind of keeping a lookout for those things. So, absolutely. And also, just to keep this a bit evergreen, I'm now on the beta for the new rendering engine, so do not have to make multiple MURALS for even larger gatherings now on MURAL, so that's pretty exciting. And after that launches, you won’t have to be in the beta program, have access to that. So I'm sure listeners in the future will be happy to have that. Daniel: I’m wondering why I’m not on that beta program. Douglas: I think you should talk to some friends, Daniel. So with that, I’m super-curious about Rock, Paper, Scissors online. How does this work? Daniel: Well, so here's the thing. Like I say, I, because I think you're referring to a LinkedIn post that I made, where I didn't even think it was possible. I just sort of assumed. And this goes to your sporting-events thing, right? where when somebody does it, then you're like, oh, that's how to do it. And it partially goes against my lazy facilitation principle. But during some of the facilitation masterclass cohorts that I run, we make spaces for people to try out new warmups and icebreakers that they've never done before. And this one woman, Janine Underhill, said, I'd like to try to do a Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament.” And I'm like, “Good luck, sister. I'm going to enjoy this.” And she did it. She did it. It can be done. I think what's interesting about it is that simultaneity in remote facilitation is impossible because of the speed-of-light limit. It’s basically an Einstein-Bose condensate kind of a problem. If you and I tried to snap at the same time, we can’t. Even if we said, “One, two, three, snap,” we wouldn’t snap at the same time, because you wouldn’t hear me snapping at the same time. There’s a delay because we’re in between this piece of software. The software institutes a delay, and sound travels more slowly than light. And so we’re never going to have simultaneity. In person, it is very hard to notice that lack of simultaneity, right? When I say, “Rock, paper, scissors, shoot,” it seems simultanous because we're within, like, two feet of each other. But when we are 100,000 miles from each other, and we are on Zoom, we notice it. And what happens is people start slowing down, because we go one, two, three, shoot, as we wait for the other person to catch up with us. And then somebody always throws before the other person, and so it's like—but we don't have a response action time to metabolize that information. And so it's actually a really interesting learning opportunity to talk about how challenging communication can be remotely. But it is totally possible to do it, and it is fun to do it, and it is ridiculous to do it. Everyone should try it. Douglas: That’s amazing. So structurally, when you do a Rock, Paper, Scissors battle, you're just having people start off in groups. Daniel: Yes. Douglas: And then the winners are laddering up to—it’s like a basketball tournament kind of… How do you do all these groups? Are you doing breakout groups, and then combine them together? Daniel: Yes, I will, in the interest of community, I will tell you all of my secrets. So Janine worked too hard at it, I think. She did all the initial pairings. We only had a group of 15, and she did all the initial pairings, and she did the secondary pairings as well, and she did the tertiary pairings. She called out all the pairings, kept track of it all. And that was to her credit. Douglas: She was recording the brackets. Daniel: She was the bracket-eur. My variation is to have people turn off their video if they lose. That's the easiest thing to do is just have people turn off their video if they lose, because then, at least, the bracketing is easier. Douglas: Yeah. Or someone could raise their hand if they're looking for… Daniel: Yes. Totally. They're signaling. And so here's the thing. We could try to do it a perfect way, or we could let the group solve it and see if we can get them to understand everything there is to understand about group communication, because signaling, oh, how do we signal stuff? Okay. How do we start—how do we keep signaling for the rest of our meetings? Okay, cool. And I've seen groups really develop some great habits around, okay, put your hand over your head if you haven't blanked. And so I don't think the bracketing thing—video makes it easier. Bracketing, the problem is, is that I think bracketing can't be done automatically. It's much harder to say, okay, I'm going to claim blank person as my hand-off person. So I haven't solved it. But I also haven't tried to do it with 100 hundred people. I've only done it with 20. And then it works fine. And it's fun. Douglas: Absolutely. Daniel: It's as fun and as ridiculous, if not more so, than doing it virtually. Douglas: Speaking of distributed facilitation in general, you've mentioned to me that it's weirder and squishier. So I guess some final comments for the listeners around challenges, just why is it weirder and squishier? And then, what are you hopeful for? What are you optimistic about? Daniel: I’ve written about this before. I can send you a link to the article on LinkedIn that I wrote. It's called “This Digital Place,” and we have a sense of place that comes for free by being four-dimensional beings. We exist in space and time, and we've had a long time, our entire lives, to get used to it. And we've had 40,000 years as modern humans to evolve for it. We've evolved in it. This is our—you know, [knocks on wood] this physical space is my native place. And so when we go into this digital place, it feels weird because it is literally not natural for us. But those Post-it notes behind you on the wall are not natural for us either. We designed those for ourselves as a tool, and I cannot imagine having an in-person meeting without those tools anymore, in the short decade that I've had those tools. I remember we didn't always have big Post-it sticky pads. We didn't always have whiteboards. We've grown really used to this environment. In the last 10, 20, 30 years, we've created this built environment around our meetings and our engagements, and we require them now. But I assure you, they are not natural. They feel natural to us because we’ve become acculturated to it and to them. And we do not have a culture for this distributed place. We don't have rituals for this distributed place. We are learning them slowly but surely. The example I love to give is, whatever it was, like, maybe five years ago, that guy from the BBC whose kids tromped in in the middle of his presentation—a little girl in yellow, running in like she owned the place. It was hilarious. And the guy was super embarrassed. The mother of the kids was extra-special embarrassed. And I was listening to NPR yesterday, where this woman was welcoming this man on to share a report about something. And he's like, I'm really glad to be here. Blah, blah, blah. And then his dog barks in the background. And the interviewer was like, “And it sounds like your dog’s excited to be with us today as well, too. What’s his name?” And he’s like, “It’s Buster.” And she’s like, well, hello to Buster. So, blah, blah, blah, let’s talk about blah, blah, blah. And it was seamless. It was smooth. She was like, whatever. We're just here, and there's a dog. Nobody cares anymore. That's something to be optimistic about, that we can adapt to this place, that we can learn new tools, that we can learn new rituals and new patterns. The fact of the matter is this is not natural, but there's very, very little that's natural about our lives. And we make our lives. We design the spaces and places where we have the conversations that we want to have. And so I'm pretty optimistic about the fact that our old patterns don't work as well here and that we have to develop new patterns, and that it is possible that maybe we will learn to retain some of those patterns when we get back to meeting in person in 19 months, my current estimate. Douglas: Well, Daniel, I look forward to continuing this journey with you. I agree, there's lots to learn and there's lots to explore. And we won't know for quite some time where these new norms and these new customs emerge, but I'm already seeing some things happen, and I think you and I are doing our best to be on the forefront of that. And so I just want to say thanks for being there with me, and it's been fun learning with you. Daniel: Likewise, man. I mean, a lot of facilitators say, “I can't feel the room, and it's not as good.” And honestly, I was one of those facilitators. Jim Kalbach from MURAL will literally quote back to you, like, the umpteen times over the last three years that I said to him, like, “I'm good, dude. I'm a great in-person facilitator. I'd much rather not compete on a global scale with anybody who has access to MURAL for facilitation gigs.” And we're in a situation where that's no longer possible in person is a fundamental assumption of what I used to do. That is impossible anymore. And I think if we can't adapt, if I can't adapt, if the rest of us can't adapt, we are royally screwed. We have to learn how to do this. And that's one of the reasons why we did the large virtual meetings things together. I thought it was important to push my own limits and say, is it possible to do the kind of big, crazy workshops that we did in person? If they had value—and we thought they did, and I think they still do—then, can we do them here, rather than, I don’t know, wait 18 months before having a bunch of people come together to make an important decision? I mean, honestly, Janet and I are having a long, ongoing discussion about this. We had to cancel our wedding in June. And what to do about getting married, and do we do a Zoom wedding? Will that be fun? Will that be interesting? Will it feel like a real wedding? Or should we wait an indefinite amount of time to bring everyone together to celebrate the fact that we have something good going here? I don't think that waiting forever is a really good business plan for anything, not for a marriage and certainly not for third-quarter top-to-top strategic meeting. I see you're nodding. You’re like, yeah, they should not be putting off those meetings. And I think people are putting them off, or they're doing them really, really poorly. Douglas: Yeah. I think there are two outcomes we've seen the more we explore this with companies. And some companies have the mindset, they have it figured out because they know how to run a Zoom meeting, or they know how to do webinars. Daniel: Right. One to Many—done. Douglas: Yeah. Like, I'm good. So they're just in the camp of, don't realize all the potential they're missing. And then you've got another camp that says we’ll just wait until we can do it in person because they've got caught flat-footed and they know that there's so much missing, but they don't know what to do. And so that's definitely the inspiration for putting together more virtual offerings. And the large virtual-meetings workshop is, I think, really hits the nail on the head as far as a real challenge around, what do we do with large groups? That sounds troubling. But the fascinating thing to me, Daniel, is that there's so much more that people learn. These aha moments can apply to much smaller meetings, but it's the large groups that people are the most confused by, and so that's where we approach the teaching opportunity. Daniel: Yeah. And large can just mean 15 or 20. It’s not hard to break the two-pizza rule, right? It is really easy to break the two-virtual-pizza rule quickly, and most of us don't have Fezzik-level skills when it comes to wrestling with large groups. And we need them. Everybody needs them, I think, especially if you work in a large corporation. But also, I went to a birthday party on Friday for someone I went to junior high school with. And this guy’s sister, who I was best friends with in junior high, she does stand-up comedy. And we did a call on Wednesday for the party, and she’s like, “What should I'd be looking out for, Daniel?” And I was like, “Well, look, it's a lot of people. You need to have an M.C.” And she's like, “Oh, I can do that,” because she's M.C.’d open comedy nights. And it’s like, “You need to have somebody to keep the energy moving and to orchestrate things and to keep the conversation moving.” It's not trivial. I think maybe this is where comics will find work in this new economy. How the Emmys and the Oscars need Billy Crystal and Kevin Hart, maybe these large virtual meetings just need comics, which is an insight you had for the first Control the Room,right? Just bring in some comedy to keep it going. Douglas: It might work a little better in the virtual setting, maybe. We’ll see. Daniel: Yeah. Are they available for me and my team? Douglas: Yeah. Bring them in, for sure. Yeah. There’s also some companies that have sprung up that allow you to rent— Daniel: Llamas? Yes, I know. Douglas: Llamas and perezosos and all sorts of stuff. Daniel: I don’t even know what those are, but… Douglas: Oh, it’s a sloth. Daniel: Oh, okay. Douglas: Everyone's got to have a sloth at their workshop. Daniel: Yeah, but see, that’s just like shiny distraction. Douglas: I agree. And Daniel, you know, I think this is the exact reason why so many people dislike icebreakers and eye openers and energizers, because they just throw them in, with no reason whatsoever, and without a debrief—in fact, I've started to say, if you can't ask, “Why did we just do that,” and have that erupt into a pithy conversation, ask yourself, “Why did we just do that?” Daniel: Whoa, yeah. I agree with you. Obviously, I agree with you. Douglas: So, Daniel, what do we need to leave listeners with? What should they know? And how could they find you, contact info, all that good stuff? Daniel: Well, I'm on the Internet, easy to find, fairly SEO’d. If you Google “Daniel Stillman,” you might find me. If you Google “The Conversation Factory,” you'll definitely find me. I have a podcast. I have a book coming out, by the way, Douglas. It will be coming out shortly, God willing. It's called Good Talk: How to Design Conversations that Matter. They're advertising it as a step-by-step handbook. It's not a step-by-step guide, because I don't think there's a single recipe that could possibly account for all situations. But it is a map to the territory and can help people learn how to form and shape and guide all the conversations in their lives better, from big-group conversations to the conversations that they have with themselves every day. We have a shocking number of conversations with ourselves, and those need to be designed just as much as quarterly action-plan gatherings and off-sites. And so if you go https://theconversationfactory.com/goodtalk, you can find it. You can download some chapters. It’s a thing. You don’t have to pay me anything. You don’t have to buy the book. The first two chapters, there’s a lot there—although somebody has told me that I ended the first two chapters at the right spot, that made them want to read the third chapter. And to that, I have to thank Kellie McGann, who helped me with the editing of the book. Douglas: It is a fantastic book. I've read it several times— Daniel: What?! Crazy. Douglas: —and I think it's really critical for people that are wanting to elevate their meetings and just their interactions at work and at home. It is a fantastic way to step back and look at your dialog in an abstract way so that you can put terms to it. So just like physics is the science of being able to take the phenomenon in the world, how the air moves past you and how your car functions, and you can put equations to it so you can understand it. You can talk about it in an abstract way so that you can reason about it. Daniel has done that for conversations. And if you think about how many conversations we have and all the moments throughout life where conversations are important, you can imagine how relevant this book becomes. And I can't highly recommend it enough. Daniel: It's really, really—it's wonderful to hear you say that. I appreciate you saying it. Writing a book, as you know, is a terrible, terrible thing. I’d never recommend it to anybody. The fact that it's out there and everyone can read it is terrifying to me. You can see what goes on in my head now, and the fact that I had a love of physics, and still do, and a love of design, it's not surprising, hearing you talk about it, I'm like, “All right. Of course. That's why I wrote the book the way that I did.” Douglas: Excellent. Well, Daniel, it's been a pleasure having you here today, and I can't wait to chat with you again. Daniel: Thanks, Douglas. It's always a pleasure. Thanks, man. Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together, voltagecontrol.com.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: Hey, Daniel, how are you?Daniel: Hey Olga, I'm fine thanks. How are you?Olga: Fine. Actually I have a favor to ask you.Daniel: Yes, sure.Olga: OK. Like my boyfriend and I are planning to go to Chile next month.Daniel: Really?Olga: Yes, so I was trying to ask if you could recommend us some place to go.Daniel: Sure.Olga: All over Chile. Actually we're planning to go to three places because we're planning to go to Chile for around one month so I think we have enough time.Daniel: That's good.Olga: Yes.Daniel: So have you been to South America before?Olga: No, never.Daniel: Never?Olga: No, we've never been outside of Mexico.Daniel: Wow, so this is going to be your first time in South America?Olga: Yes.Daniel: Good. Well it depends what you want to do. You said about a month and also it depends on how much money you're taking.Olga: We have been saving around like one year money so I think we have enough money to, you know, just travel around and don't worry about money.Daniel: OK, good, because I think if you go to the right places you can save a lot of money.Olga: Oh.Daniel: Because if you go, you know, to like big fancy restaurants, you're going to take a lot of money but I can give you a lot of tips so you can save money and also have I think a much better time.Olga: That would be great.Daniel: OK. So I can recommend you about three places.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: The first one would be in the north.Olga: Oh.Daniel: We have a desert.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: So if you are OK with the heat.Olga: Yeah, I'm OK. I'm from Mexico.Daniel: OK, that's good then. It's called Atacama Desert and we have a lot of really, really nice places there.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's a place called San Pedro de Atacama. There's another one called The Valley of the Moon and it's supposed to be, it's supposed to look like the moon actually, that's why the name.Olga: It sounds so romantic.Daniel: It is. I've never been with my girlfriend but it should be romantic.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's also a lot of mountains and if you go to a couple of places near the Andes you can see a lot of beautiful lakes and you will also have to be careful with the altitude.Olga: Oh, right, yeah, because I come from a really low place.Daniel: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Olga: Hey, Daniel, how are you?Daniel: Hey Olga, I'm fine thanks. How are you?Olga: Fine. Actually I have a favor to ask you.Daniel: Yes, sure.Olga: OK. Like my boyfriend and I are planning to go to Chile next month.Daniel: Really?Olga: Yes, so I was trying to ask if you could recommend us some place to go.Daniel: Sure.Olga: All over Chile. Actually we're planning to go to three places because we're planning to go to Chile for around one month so I think we have enough time.Daniel: That's good.Olga: Yes.Daniel: So have you been to South America before?Olga: No, never.Daniel: Never?Olga: No, we've never been outside of Mexico.Daniel: Wow, so this is going to be your first time in South America?Olga: Yes.Daniel: Good. Well it depends what you want to do. You said about a month and also it depends on how much money you're taking.Olga: We have been saving around like one year money so I think we have enough money to, you know, just travel around and don't worry about money.Daniel: OK, good, because I think if you go to the right places you can save a lot of money.Olga: Oh.Daniel: Because if you go, you know, to like big fancy restaurants, you're going to take a lot of money but I can give you a lot of tips so you can save money and also have I think a much better time.Olga: That would be great.Daniel: OK. So I can recommend you about three places.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: The first one would be in the north.Olga: Oh.Daniel: We have a desert.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: So if you are OK with the heat.Olga: Yeah, I'm OK. I'm from Mexico.Daniel: OK, that's good then. It's called Atacama Desert and we have a lot of really, really nice places there.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's a place called San Pedro de Atacama. There's another one called The Valley of the Moon and it's supposed to be, it's supposed to look like the moon actually, that's why the name.Olga: It sounds so romantic.Daniel: It is. I've never been with my girlfriend but it should be romantic.Olga: Yeah.Daniel: There's also a lot of mountains and if you go to a couple of places near the Andes you can see a lot of beautiful lakes and you will also have to be careful with the altitude.Olga: Oh, right, yeah, because I come from a really low place.Daniel: Yeah.

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

 Amanda Louder is a Certified Life Coach who helps women from conservative Christian backgrounds love their sex life. She helps women embrace their sexuality to help them strengthen their relationship with themselves, their spouse, and their Heavenly Parents. As a first step to helping women embrace their sexuality, she has provided a FREE guide to help women understand how they personally experience pleasure. You can get this guide by going to www.amandalouder.com/improvingintimacyIn addition to being a coach, Amanda is also a wife, mom to 3 and step-mom to 2.  In her spare time, she enjoys reading, watching her kids play sports, fishing, and camping.To hear more from Amanda, you can find her on Instagram @AmandaLouderCoaching or her podcast "Live From Love" where she talks about all things sex and marriage.[music]00:02 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.00:20 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have life coach Amanda Louder with us, and I'm excited to explore her journey. I've been through her podcast and her website, and she's a member of the Intimacy Group. And I really enjoy her comments a lot, so I'm excited, and hopefully you are excited, to explore her journey to healthy sexuality here. So, let's jump right into it. Welcome. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Amanda.00:47 Amanda: Thanks so much, Daniel, I'm excited to be here. My name is Amanda Louder. I am a certified life coach. I coach women, primarily from conservative Christian backgrounds, help them embrace their sexuality, learn to love their sex life. I'm married. I'm currently on my second marriage, don't plan to have any more. [chuckle]01:08 DANIEL: Oh, wow.01:09 AMANDA: And together we have five kids, ranging from 11 to almost 20.01:14 DANIEL: That's exciting. So, what took you on this journey? I'm assuming that you weren't always a life coach.01:18 AMANDA: No. [chuckle]01:20 DANIEL: So, what brought you here?01:22 AMANDA: So, when I went through my divorce about eight years ago, it was really a time of discovery for me and discovering myself. And I actually have a great relationship with my ex-husband now, and we co-parent really well. And I'm remarried. I actually got remarried fairly quickly. I met my husband just six weeks after my divorce was final, and we married about nine months later, and we've been very happily married for seven years now. And so, people started reaching out to me for divorce advice, because they could see that, I guess as far as divorce goes, it was pretty successful. [chuckle] And so, I was getting calls like three or four times a month from people either asking for themselves or for a close friend or family member. And I really started thinking about going back to school to become a therapist so that I could help more women who had been in my situation. And I looked into it, and it would have taken me a lot of years and a lot of time that I wasn't willing to sacrifice with my family. I had five children at that point, and I'm very busy with them. And so, it wasn't something that I was willing to pursue. But then I found coaching a few years ago, and immediately, it felt like the right choice. It felt like what I was meant to do.02:44 AMANDA: So, I started coaching, and then I went through a certification program. I started originally just coaching women who were struggling in their marriage and contemplating divorce, helping them come to that decision for themselves with confidence and peace. And as I coached more and more, I found more and more women were struggling with healthy sexuality within their marriage and within themselves. And I was actually just on a trip this summer with a bunch of other girlfriends who are also coaches, and we're sitting around our condo, as girls do, and sex comes up. And so, I started imparting of my knowledge of the subject. And by the end of our trip, all of my friends were like, "Amanda, you have to do this. You have to change your niche. This is what you were truly meant to do. We have learned more from you in a weekend than we have in 15 years of marriage." And I was very hesitant at first. Sex can be a very scary topic for some people. I come from a background... A very private background. My parents are very private people.03:48 DANIEL: Very.03:49 AMANDA: I've never been that way. I'm always been an open book. But respecting where I came from and stuff, I understand that it can be a very scary subject for a lot of people to talk about. But it is something that I am very comfortable talking about. I feel very comfortable in that space and really want to help women love their sex life and embrace that so that they can not only enjoy their marriage more, but truly embrace who they are as a person. And I think it helps them come closer to themselves, to their spouse, and to their heavenly parents.04:20 DANIEL: I think it's impressive as I listen to your podcast. It's one thing to be a coach or even a therapist and work with people with sexual health issues, another have this ability to talk about the very sensitive, private, taboo topics in a way that's very comfortable. And that's one thing I immediately appreciate listening to your podcast. You could say things like vagina, clitoris, masturbation. The one episode I was listening to, I think it was orgasms. And the way you presented the information, you even talked about how using masturbation is a healthy part of discovering yourself. The way you presented it was very impressive. It's very difficult within our culture to even use the word masturbation. You pointed out it's a dirty word, and it triggers a lot of people.05:04 AMANDA: Well, I have to attribute a lot of that to you, Daniel. I listened to a podcast you were on, I think it was maybe the Mormon Marriages podcast, and mainly...05:11 DANIEL: Oh, with Nate Bagley and his wife?05:13 AMANDA: Yes. And it really opened up my eyes to a different way of looking at things. And then, I really started doing a lot of my own research and thoughts and prayer about it to be a lot more open-minded about it.05:26 DANIEL: Thank you. It's been quite a journey, but today's podcast is not about me. I relate to you a lot, just I didn't realize you had this background with your divorce. It sounds almost parallel to my experience. I'm assuming you probably already know. But it sounds like we were even divorced at probably about the same time. And I met my wife shortly before my divorce, and we knew we were gonna get married within months after my divorce was finalized. And so, in my journey, I made the stupid decision of jumping back into school and getting into therapy, and that was... It's difficult. And I knew it was gonna be hard, but I value and appreciate the weight of that journey, and I've been very open and vocal about life coaching and the concerns I have around it. You have something that most coaches don't have, is an actual certificate. You're a certified professional life coach. And I think that's important because one of the things of working with people, especially with this type of subject, is you really gotta understand your boundaries, professionally, ethically, and what the client's responsibility is and your responsibility is. And I think that adds an additional level of safety in the relationship.06:37 DANIEL: And so, very good for you. I admire you for doing that, because you're right. I can't tell you how many people I've seen in our position, try to go back into, or at least pursue therapy as a career, and they have to stop after four or five years because it's gotten too expensive, and the barrier to entry is just ridiculous. And that's why I don't say life coaching is not an option. I think it is definitely an option. In fact, I hire life coaches, and I worked as a life coach for a while. But back to what you do, I love this. So, you're presenting a message of safety to these women and you're giving an example that they haven't seen before. When you say you did a divorce right, I totally understand what you mean by that. No divorce is easy, by any means. But they were pursuing you. What did you notice? What was maybe a common theme or pattern that you saw in the people who were seeking your advice? Kind of a big question there, but what would you sum it up, or did you see any patterns, or was it kind of all over the place?07:33 AMANDA: It's really all over the place. Everybody comes to the table with different issues. Their spouse comes to the table with different issues. And it's just really helping them see how they're interpreting the situation, the story that they're telling themselves, and how that's giving them the results that they're getting in their marriage. I worked with women who were really struggling with their sexuality, I worked with women whose husbands had issues with pornography, I was working with women who have had issues with infidelity in their marriage. And some, they were just unhappy because their husbands weren't living up to what they thought husbands should be, what they thought their spouse was supposed to be, the needs that their spouse was supposed to be meeting in them, and just teaching them how to meet those needs for themselves and just letting their partner be them and choosing to love them anyway.08:22 DANIEL: That's a big one, and one that I don't think even a lot of therapists embrace. Maybe that's not a fair statement. Maybe don't value or understand a lot. We get couples into the therapy room, and we focus on better communication. And those things are important. But I like what you're saying here. And I wanna inquire a little bit more about that, and focusing on the individual and their needs. And I've heard that in a few of your podcasts, the need to turn to yourself and understand what your needs are. Tell me a little bit more about your journey there and how you came to that conclusion.08:54 AMANDA: Well, we all have issues, we all come to the table with baggage. And really, being able to look at yourself and see what you're bringing to the table and how you're contributing to your relationship. Are you being needy? Are you being demanding? Are you being... And they stem from all sorts of issues from your background, but you're showing up in a way that's creating the relationship that you don't want. And so, really taking a look at how your thinking is creating that result for you, creating that relationship for you, and what you can do differently even if your spouse never changes. And sometimes that means making hard decisions. Sometimes, that means setting boundaries, walking away, whatever that is for you. But looking at yourself first, not, "How do I change him?" It's, "How do I change me? How do I get comfortable with myself in this situation, no matter how my partner shows up?"09:54 DANIEL: That's a huge concept. [chuckle]09:56 AMANDA: Yeah, it is.09:56 DANIEL: Big. And I'm curious if you get any push back on that?10:00 AMANDA: For sure.10:00 DANIEL: How do you deal with that? Let's get a little bit more specific here. I think there's this danger, and you pointed out in one of your podcasts is, "Are you blaming me for my spouse's behaviors then?" And that's usually how that phrase is taken. It's like, "Focus on yourself. See what you're doing to contribute to the problem or the issue." How do you navigate that?10:19 AMANDA: Well, it's individual. It really just depends on how they're thinking about it. What I say to all of my clients is, every problem is a thought problem. It's just how you're choosing to think about it. Or, you're believing what your brain is offering to you without questioning it. If you wanna believe something, believe it with intention, not just because that's what's offered to you. One I hear a lot is, like, "My spouse plays way too many video games. I'm sick and tired of him neglecting me, neglecting the house, neglecting the kids, because he's busy playing video games." And this could be a variety of things. It could be watching sports or looking at pornography, or whatever it is. It's his behavior. Well, how are you choosing to think about it? How are you contributing to that situation? One, you can choose to think that it's not a problem. That's totally up to you. But you can also choose to think it is a problem, and then what are the results of that? And are you okay with that? Is that serving you? If it's serving you, go ahead and keep thinking about it. But if it's not, then you can look at what you want to purposely think instead that might change that dynamic.11:25 AMANDA: Try to look at it from his point of view. Maybe he's had a long day at work, and this is how he knows how to unwind. Maybe he's doing that too much and you just need to have a conversation about it. But are you having that conversation in a blaming way, like, "You shouldn't do this," or you're saying, "This is what I see, and this is how it's affecting me. This is how I feel"? And be confident enough in yourself to be able to say those things.11:49 DANIEL: I really appreciate that. I use this example and I appreciate it as an example because we focus on the wrong problem a lot. And when I work with clients and they say, let's go with this example of, "He's gaming all the time. And he won't listen to me, he won't get off. He's absorbed with it." And what the discussion starts to evolve around is, how much he's gaming. But that's not really what we want. We want his attention. And so, I will often say, "Tell you what, let's try this experiment. Why don't you stop talking about the... Don't ever bring up the gaming anymore. And you walk into the house after getting the kids or coming home from work, and you see him gaming with his headphones on or whatever he's doing, and tell you what, why don't you do something a little bit different and go up to him, hug him in a way that's not distracting him but letting him know that you're there, and say, 'I would really love to spend a few minutes with you. I miss you'? And watch how that changes." Now, often, people will... They'll come back and they'll say, "He didn't listen to me."12:55 AMANDA: Keep doing it.12:56 DANIEL: No, keep doing it, day after day. Create a new sense of predictability. I think a lot of couples, depending... Especially if they've been in this rut for so long, it's like, "I'm not trusting that behavior. Where is that coming from?" It becomes a little bit suspicious. "You're actually focusing on me and not the games. Are you just trying to manipulate me?" But we give the gaming, or whatever that problem is or that distraction, all the attention. And it no longer becomes about each other. It's about ending this. As though taking that behavior away will then create a healthy behavior.13:28 AMANDA: Well, so I talk a lot about, like, "Who do you want to be in this situation? Do you wanna be the nagging, controlling wife? Or do you want to be the wife who's loving and compassionate and trying to create that connection with your spouse?" Because really, that's what's happening. You're not getting that connection that you want. He's getting the connection through gaming, or whatever. He's getting what he thinks he needs, but he probably rather get it from you, if you're offering it in the right way.13:55 DANIEL: It's interesting, as I listen to you speak, you're definitely using language, I think you have an advantage as a woman working with female clients. I don't know if I could ever get away with saying, "nagging." "Stop nagging your husband."14:05 AMANDA: [chuckle] Yeah. Women nag, I can say that. We nag. Yeah.14:09 DANIEL: [chuckle] Yeah, that's very good, that's very difficult to do, and be able to focus on the positive behavior. I always call it, "What's the desired outcome?" And they'll say, "Stop the game." No, that's not the desired outcome. The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer. I wanna feel connected." Then, let's make that...14:29 AMANDA: Let's make that the goal.14:30 DANIEL: Not the ending. 'Cause really, if your husband... And let's exaggerate a little here, for example's sake. If he's gaming 12 hours a day, but he's providing a living and you feel totally connected to him, is the gaming really a problem? "No, I feel totally connected to him." So, it's not really the gaming. I realize it's an exaggerated example, but usually, is the case. So, excellent, I love that approach. So, tell me a little bit more about how you work with the sexual topic. I know when I first did this, it was... And I appreciate the compliment that you got it from me, but when I first did this, and I've shared this story before. My first blog post was a couple, maybe three years ago, about masturbation, my infamous, seven series blog posts. I remember when I clicked post, I was shaking. I was afraid of how people would perceive me and just the whole cultural phenomenon around that. And so, it took me quite a few years to get to that point where it was even comfortable to say out loud, even with clients. Masturbation. I'm constantly managing that sensitivity around that issue. How do you feel like you've taken that journey and getting comfortable with engaging in those topics with people?15:48 AMANDA: It's just kind of who I am. I'm...15:51 DANIEL: Oh, really?15:51 AMANDA: I think it's become more and more comfortable, but it's never been something that I've really had a problem talking about, body parts and saying vulva and vagina and clitoris and penis. That's never been an issue for me. But that's not how I was raised, so...16:10 DANIEL: Yeah, you were saying you were raised in a very private home.16:13 AMANDA: Yes, very. Very private. So, it's just something that I feel like... I almost feel like it's a gift that I've been given. And that's part of the reason... When I started coaching a year-and-a-half ago, I don't know that I would have been ready at that point to discuss these sexual topics in the nature that I do now and become a sex coach. [chuckle] But now, I'm stepping into my own, that is who I am, and I can see that very, very clearly. And I feel very prompted. I bring prayer and the Spirit very much into every podcast that I do and all of my coaching sessions. I pray about what I'm supposed to be podcasting about that week, and I feel very prompted onto what those topics are supposed to be. And so many times, when I listen to those promptings, the words just flow. And so, I just learned to recognize that this is who I am, this is who I was made to be, and I'm just really stepping into that, and as I do so, my Heavenly Father is blessing me more and more.17:26 DANIEL: I appreciate hearing that. I think one of the collateral damage of work in my type of profession is being hyper-sensitive to people's concerns and not wanting to offend or come across as unempathetic. And I think sometimes that's a detrimental in the sense that I forget my personality in that because I'm so focused. And it's interesting because it's almost like a marriage in a sense, because if I lose myself in that work and that other person, I forget the gifts that I bring. So, that's a really good reminder to me, I appreciate hearing that. And being myself, I think, I've talked about this, written about this, is, I'm gonna say dumb things and I'm gonna say things that are incorrect.18:12 AMANDA: Totally.18:13 DANIEL: I'm dyslexic in my communication, as you probably already can tell, but if I focus more on a fear on not being truthful to myself and offending somebody else, I lose that power in that message. And so, that's a great reminder.18:28 AMANDA: We can't control what other people are thinking, so no matter what we say, people could be offended. [chuckle] So, I would rather just be true to myself and true to who I know I'm supposed to be, and let them worry about them.18:40 DANIEL: We call that differentiation in therapy, and that's a powerful concept and very difficult for a lot of people to embrace. I've discovered, as I've tried to bring that to the table, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this is, as you teach clients how to differentiate and to be an individual, is that scary for them? What's their experience like?19:01 AMANDA: Yeah, I always tell clients it's gonna get worse before it gets better.19:05 DANIEL: What do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean.19:07 AMANDA: Yeah, so when we start showing up differently, the dance changes. We've been doing this dance with our partner, with ourselves, even, for a very long time, and when we start showing up differently, the people around us, and not just our spouse, but our parents, our children, our friends, are like, "Woah, what's happening here? This is not normal." And they're like, "I don't know how to do this dance, I don't know how to respond." But eventually, most the time, they get the hang of it. If we just...19:35 AMANDA: You create a new normal...19:36 AMANDA: You create a new normal. So, I have a client who... She was definitely... Well, she says, "Being controlled," by her spouse. Really, she was letting herself be controlled. We know that it's not... They're not controlling, you're letting yourself be controlled. So, once she learned to step into her own, her spouse was like, "No, this is not happening. I run... This is what I do." And she was like, "Sorry, this isn't the way it's happening." And now, they've figured out this new dance and things are so good, so good. They've learned to give and take more, and she's willing to really say what she's thinking and not be afraid of his response. And he wasn't abusive or mean, or anything, it was just like, "I'm the man. This is the way it's gonna be". And she...20:26 DANIEL: It was his role.20:28 AMANDA: It was his role. And she's like, "Sorry, that's just not gonna work anymore". And it was really rough for a long time, but then he's like, "Okay, this is the new normal. Okay, I can see how this is actually beneficial for both of us. Okay, this is working. Yeah, okay, let's keep doing this, let's do it, let's do this dance now." And it's so much better.20:48 DANIEL: That is so wonderful to hear from you because I think there's a concern when we... When we look at these relationships, we have a difficult time in general. I'm not just talking about life coaches or therapists, is someone has to be bad and somebody has to be good. And so, when we look at these situations I think we have to be very, very careful. And you demonstrated that right now, is where we have... Let's go with this example of the wife coming in, saying, "I'm being controlled." And then, you reframe it to, "You're allowing yourself to be controlled," which is a big concept and a little scary, as you see. But then, the husband's response in this is, "No, this isn't gonna happen." We tend to stereotypically identify that as a manipulative person. But you had this insight is, "Well maybe this is just his training." He's not trying to be a bad person, as you clarify. He wasn't abusive, but his behavior, the way he was raised as an individual, this is his communication style and he doesn't know how to get out of it, so we need to help him out of it. It's not because he's a bad person. But he just doesn't know how to do it.22:00 AMANDA: But he didn't come to coaching, he didn't go to therapy. It was only her. But by her changing the dynamic and changing the way that she was showing up in the relationship, changed the relationship.22:12 DANIEL: Yes, and that's huge. Good clarification there. And you were able to create that change through her.22:18 AMANDA: And it wasn't me creating the change through her, it was her creating the change through her.22:22 DANIEL: But even in that situation... In fact, it could be even more risky, because we could look at this, we don't know the husband, we don't know his behavior, it could become an easy out and say, "He is abusive. You need to get away from him."22:33 AMANDA: Well, you can, but we talk about that and we talk about healthy boundaries, what those look like. When he starts exhibiting more control, maybe using some language that violates one of those boundaries, then you say, "Hey, that's not okay with me. If you wanna keep using that language, that's totally fine, but I'm gonna go, I'm gonna leave the room. I'm gonna leave the house for a couple of hours. I'll come back when you're ready to talk about it again in a better manner," I guess.23:00 DANIEL: I notice on your website, and it sounds like you work exclusively with women, but do you ever work as a couple?23:06 AMANDA: Yeah, I've worked with couples, I've worked with just men.23:08 DANIEL: Okay, so it's not just women.23:10 AMANDA: No.23:11 DANIEL: But that's your primary audience.23:13 AMANDA: Yes.23:13 DANIEL: So, along this line of thinking, you extend this idea of, "You need to take responsibility in your relationship for your own behavior and how you perceive things and create a new healthy or a new normal." You push this idea into intimacy. And I think it was that same podcast I was listening to is, "When sex is requested, say yes."23:36 AMANDA: It's the Nike approach. Just do it.23:38 DANIEL: Just do it.23:38 AMANDA: Say yes to the sex. That's what I say.23:40 DANIEL: And you addressed the concerns around that in the podcast, but tell me a little bit more because there is a risk there. How do you create healthy boundaries in an environment where you're saying yes to sex whenever requested?23:52 AMANDA: Yeah, so of course there's gonna be abuses taken, but what I'm talking about is more just in a good healthy relationship, where a lot of women are just not in the mood, so they're not... They don't wanna do it whenever their husband wants. And I'm really encouraging them to cultivate that connection and that desire within themselves, so that when their husband approaches them, they're ready, they want it too. And the more that they cultivate that within themselves, the more they start to crave it themselves.24:28 DANIEL: Is there ever a time to say no?24:29 AMANDA: Yeah, I've had women who, like, "Well, what if my husband is wanting sex as I go out the door and I need to be somewhere?" I'm like, "Okay, that's not gonna work. But you don't say, 'No, we're not having sex right now,' you say, 'Hold that thought. Let's do it later. I gotta run here.'" So, you're not saying no, you're saying yes, but let's do it later, when it's a little bit more convenient.24:51 DANIEL: You're focusing on the desired outcome. I love it.24:54 AMANDA: Yeah. Another one was like... And this is... Sorry, maybe too much for you, but women are like, "Well, can I say no when I'm on my period?" I'm like, "Well, that's a boundary... "25:03 DANIEL: Not too much here at all.25:05 AMANDA: "That's the boundary you can set for yourself." "Yes, I will say yes to you when I'm not on my period." But I will push you a little bit further and say, "It is totally fine for you to have sex while you're on your period, you just have to make some adjustments. Get a towel. It might be a little messier. Use a menstrual disk so that you can... " There are options. It's just, what are you willing to do for that?25:28 DANIEL: As I said at the beginning, we're gonna meander here. I love having just casual conversation. Let's explore that a little bit more there. I've actually, and maybe it's just being a man, I'm seeing a different perspective here, but I'm curious what you're seeing. Usually, I hear the man doesn't wanna have sex while the wife is on her period. Are you seeing it the other way around, where usually it's the women or is it...25:50 AMANDA: I see both. In my, "say yes to the sex challenge", if the man is saying, "I wanna have sex and I know you're on your period," then what is your hold up? What barriers are you putting into play? Just like, "Oh, I can't do it because I'm on my period," or like, "Is there really a problem?"26:09 DANIEL: Excellent, excellent insight there. I love it. So fascinating. So, what is the maybe biggest obstacles to intimacy that you're seeing for women?26:22 AMANDA: Guilt. Shame. Not knowing their body.26:25 DANIEL: Guilt and shame around what?26:28 AMANDA: I think the cultural dialogues that they've had in their youth, that their sexuality is something that needs to be repressed and is evil and is going to take them to hell, and then all of the sudden expecting that to be different when they're married. And not understanding that we should not be repressing sexuality as teenagers. We should be learning to manage it. And so, now that you're an adult, you've gotta figure out how to manage it as an adult. And that means not continuing to suppress it, and that means doesn't going crazy but learning how to manage it as an adult manages things.27:06 DANIEL: Wow. How does one go about eliminating that guilt? That's...27:11 AMANDA: Figuring out where it comes from, what the thoughts are, and just retraining the brain on... A lot of what I get is women saying, "I feel dirty. I feel un-virtuous. I feel like Heavenly Father is going to be mad at me."27:28 DANIEL: Wait, wait, wait. Are you talking about about when they're having sex with their spouse?27:30 AMANDA: Yes, when they're having sex with their spouse, that it creates all of this guilt and shame that somehow their Heavenly Father is looking down on them for not using sex only for procreation. For a lot of them, it's okay to procreate, but for fun and enjoyment and being closer to their spouse, not okay.27:48 DANIEL: This is actually something that I've discovered more and more. I think I knew it before, but I didn't realize how deep it ran. I knew it did with me, but for maybe other reasons. But this concept, if you noticed in the group and maybe you saw are common, with the new interview, temple-recommended interview questions came out. And the questions around the law of chastity where you're striving to have morally clean thoughts. And some... And this is not to point out anybody or criticize or shame in any way, but a few people were actually saying, "How do I answer that question when I'm desiring sex with my husband?" Or something to that effect. And so, they equated this idea that sex, even with your eternal companion, is dirty and can't be experienced emotionally or mentally.28:35 AMANDA: Or having thoughts about having sex with your spouse is dirty. And yeah, I just... I'm like, "No." And I tried to tell this as much as I can and try to help women understand, like, "This is what's supposed to be happening. This is what your Heavenly Father wants for you. He gave you an entire organ just for your pleasure. It's not... He wants you to be having fun. He created your brain to need novelty and newness and dare we say dirty thoughts to get aroused with your spouse." Now, sometimes minds wander, and that's fine too. But if you're not turning away from your spouse to do that, if you're turning towards your spouse, even if your mind is going a different direction, good on you. That's what's supposed to be happening. This is how your brain was created. This is what your Heavenly Father wants for you. Just changing that dialogue, I think, is so needed, and that's what one of my main messages is. It's like, let's just change this dialogue a little bit. All of these things that you've heard or you heard as youth or you're reinforcing to yourself now, you're interpreting, there's a different way to think about things, and I just want you to open up your mind to that possibility.29:47 DANIEL: Yeah. What a wonderful idea there. That concept of guilt runs so deep and we start to bring so many different perspectives into the bedroom. And...29:58 AMANDA: Oh, for sure.29:58 DANIEL: We gotta get the Bishop out of the bedroom, we've gotta get our culture out of the bedroom. And how do we do that? 'Cause it crushes sex. Do you see... When a client of yours is able to embrace that idea and start to re-map their brain in how they think about this, what do you see happen to their sexual arousal or desire?30:19 AMANDA: It goes way up.[chuckle]30:22 DANIEL: It seems like I led right into that...30:23 AMANDA: Way up, yeah. This has happened with quite a few clients, but I usually see them creating, cultivating that more within themselves. And it just... It makes everything better. I have a little theory here that the anxiety that so many women have is really just that they're sexually frustrated. And I would love to do some sort of study on this. I gotta try and figure it out. But I really think that they don't understand their body well enough to know that they're actually craving it, and they need it. And if they would just let their body do what it was made to do, quit putting on the brakes all the time and just let it run, it would be so much better for every aspect of their life. They would be a better wife, they would be a better mother, they would be a better friend, they would be a better worker. Every single aspect of their life would be better. And I have seen that for myself. I've seen it in my clients. It happens almost every time. Unless there's some sort of sexual trauma, abuse or something that needs to be worked through, and that's not something I do. I turn that over to the professionals. I can work with a therapist when it comes to that, but that's not something that I personally work on, that's out of my scope. But unless there's that there, it's just women putting on the brakes when they don't need to put on the brakes.31:50 DANIEL: Yeah. Have you ever seen... And I appreciate the clarification around the trauma, and I think that's very important to... And thankful that you refer out for that stuff. And I think that it's important to understand too, it's not for everyone to approach it this way. I'm curious if you've ever seen where somebody is working on their guilt and they start to experience their desires in a way that they've never done before. Have you noticed any of them actually get scared of that desire?32:17 AMANDA: Yeah.32:18 DANIEL: Tell me a little bit about that.32:19 AMANDA: Their brain is doing this, like, "I want it, but I can't." And they're just fighting it constantly, and so, it's causing all this friction that they don't understand.32:28 DANIEL: They can't what? They can't have it or... Oh, because it's bad.32:31 AMANDA: It's bad. They shouldn't. But helping them retrain their thinking so that, like, "No, this is a good thing. This is what I was created for. If I can embrace this, my Heavenly Father can give me even more of His Spirit and His blessings. He can bless my relationship, my marriage, even more when I can open myself up to everything that I was created to be."33:00 DANIEL: I've even heard female clients say... I wanna represent it correctly. I think it was, "I don't... " As they're starting to feel this arousal and this orgasm come on, I've heard a handful of them say, "I don't deserve this." It's very self-shaming language. I'm not exactly sure what they're experiencing as a female, and that... 'Cause I know for a lot of men is like, "Yes, we're creating that experience." So, what is this dynamic they're feeling?33:32 AMANDA: I talked about it a little bit in my last podcast, that we...33:37 DANIEL: Was that 77 or... Which podcast was that?33:39 AMANDA: 78, I think. We're told in the proclamation of the family that we're nurturers. We are responsible to nurture our husbands and our children, and we've turned that into, "We need to be self-sacrificing."33:52 DANIEL: That's the language they use. "It feels selfish to have an orgasm." [33:55] ____, yes.33:57 AMANDA: Yes. Yes. And so, they don't feel like they can have that for themselves, because if they do, then they aren't fulfilling their eternal role as a nurturer. And what I say is, "You need to nurture yourself first." Sex isn't about the culmination of a man having an orgasm. That is not what sex is about. And when it comes to sex, yes, you want to take care and nurture your spouse, but you need to make sure that you are taken care of and nurtured for yourself as well. You and your arousal and your feelings and your primary responsibility. It is not your spouse's responsibility to give you an orgasm, it is your responsibility to get yourself in a place where that can happen.34:40 DANIEL: Wonderfully said. And I'm gonna link the listeners to the specific podcast that I'm referencing, we're referencing, in this podcast. But tell me a little bit more about that. I think it was in the orgasm podcast, again, that learning yourself, even through masturbation, it's not just about stimulating your clitoris. Tell me, do you recall what I'm talking about? Tell the audience more about self-exploration, what's involved with that?35:06 AMANDA: Yeah. So many people think that orgasm is the end goal. And really, it's about connection, but it's also about pleasure. So really, understanding how you personally experience pleasure, that can probably get you to orgasm, but understanding your body... We have erogenous zones all over our body. I love that Friends episode. [chuckle] I don't know if you remember that, but I'm sure some of your listeners probably do. The seven erogenous zones. We have so many places on our body that can experience pleasure. And so, if we tune into our body and really understand how we personally experience pleasure, then we are much more able to have that experience and cultivate that within ourselves. Whether that's, we are understanding how we can touch ourselves, or how we can guide a partner to touch us. It doesn't have to be masturbation. You don't have to pleasure yourself to the point of orgasm. It's just understanding what feels good to you, and then, being able to replicate that, either with a partner or on your own.36:17 DANIEL: We refer to this as sensate focus therapy. Touching and even dragging your fingers across your skin, and just becoming present with yourself. And I really valued how you approached this topic in that podcast, and that you're even sharing with the audience. Consider things you haven't considered before, like anal stimulation. And that may seem dirty, but even that concept of it feeling dirty or not even considering is self-shaming and not really considering what your body can or should do or would like to do. You're silencing your body and not actually paying attention to it. And so, in this senate experience, touching yourself all over, your nipples, your anus, your vagina, your arms, everything.37:04 AMANDA: Everything.37:05 DANIEL: Discover what you like and how it resonates with your sexual self.37:10 AMANDA: Yeah, and so, I actually... And I couldn't offer this, and I'll give you a link to put in your show notes. I offer a free worksheet, a download, where it guides a woman through different body parts and how those body parts like to be touched. And it's just... I call it the roadmap to personal pleasure. Really figuring out what pleasure feels like for you. It can be done alone, it can be done with a partner, both, either. You can do whatever you want with it. It's just a guide to get you thinking and get you started.37:47 DANIEL: Amanda, I gotta have you back on, 'cause I would love to continue to poke and prod your knowledge, and I could go on for hours like this. Anything that you would like to... I think you shared a lot here, but anything you'd like to leave the audience with, before we wrap up?38:03 AMANDA: I would love for you guys to follow me on Instagram @amandaloudercoaching. My podcast is called Live From Love. That's what I believe this life should be, that if we live from a place of love, we're not only honoring ourself, but we're honoring everybody else around us, and that's the best place to be.38:20 DANIEL: Amanda, thank you, thank you so much for your time.38:23 AMANDA: You're so welcome, Daniel, thanks for having me.

We often feel an urgency to start saving for retirement at a young age. “Start saving in your qualified plan (401k) now or you won’t have enough money for retirement!” Maybe we should change our thinking and accept that the economy is changing, and what worked for our parents and grandparents might not necessarily work in this developing economy. Join Daniel Ameduri, of Future Money Trends (https://www.futuremoneytrends.com/) , and WTR as we discuss why having a passive income could be what you need for building wealth and living the life you thought was merely an illusion, and what you can achieve if you adapt to living in the present. Ingenious tactics to accumulate wealth, for people who see things differently. Daniel Ameduri Website: (https://www.futuremoneytrends.com/) Facebook: (https://www.facebook.com/FutureMoneyTrends/) Twitter: (https://twitter.com/FutureMoneyTren) YouTube: (https://www.youtube.com/user/FutureMoneyTrends) Notes: Kevin: Daniel is the author of the new book “ Future Money Trends (https://www.futuremoneytrends.com/tag/daniel-ameduri) Clearly, you tend to think outside of the box. What inspired you to get to where you are today? Daniel: I’ve always had a fascination with money Unfortunately, when you make a lot of money in a bubble when you’re young, you’re destined for a blowup which happened to me Kevin: Robert Kiyosaki says “The poor way of thinking is ‘I can’t afford that’, whereas the wealthy way of thinking is ‘How can I afford that?'” Daniel: The biggest thing that you can to cut spending is moving (either out of state, out of the country, or to another part of the state you reside it) Can reduce the expenses by about 50% Buying for cash flow instead of buying for appreciation Most retirement savers are just speculating and hoping things go up, but my book focuses on how you can rethink that If it doesn’t bring you a check don’t buy it Kevin: I find it interesting in you saying not saving for retirement because typically, when people are talking about money in terms of retirement, people say they’re going to save for retirement and put money into their retirement savings account, which usually is a 401K or another IRA We make a distinction when we talk about money where you have two tanks for money Investment tank that has risk (you could lose money) Savings tank that is relatively safe If you put your money in a 401K or an IRA, it’s in a mutual fund and in the market, meaning it has risk (not a savings account) Daniel: So many people don’t know what they’re invested in and they continue to hope that it pays off It’s time to start asking ‘Is this even working?’ According to VanGuard, the median account holder who is 65+ with a 401K is only $58,000 Kevin: How could you survive with $58,000? For most people, that would get them by living a minimal life for approximately 2 years or so Daniel: It is very minimal. Perhaps they’re dependent on social security now You wonder what the lost opportunity was that they had just bought something that would pay them a dividend or pay them a yield, let’s say whether they’re investing in real estate or maybe they want to buy a single family home Kevin: I’m assuming that you would invest those dividends back in maybe to another property or expanding into other investments? Daniel: It depends what stage of the game you’re at If you’re young and you have great active income then go for it Later in life you may decide you want to use half of the passive income to pay for your vacation, your bills, your house, a change in career, etc. Kevin: So in terms of passive income, investing in two things that deliver a check to your mailbox or into your account, are there other options

The Reverends Jeya and Daniel So are husband and wife as well as the co-pastors of Anchor City Church in San Diego, California.

The Reverends Jeya and Daniel So are husband and wife as well as the co-pastors of Anchor City Church in San Diego, California.

Als sie die Kündigung erhält, krempelt Gabriela Urban ihr Leben um. Mit ihrem kleinen Sohn geht sie auf Reisen und erfindet sich in der Krise neu. Über ihre Erlebnisse unterwegs hat sie das Buch "Wie Buddha im Gegenwind" geschrieben. Gabriela Urban ist Bloggerin und Autorin. Auf "Mami bloggt" gibt sie Eltern Tipps, wie sie mit ihrem Nachwuchs gemeinsam auf Reisen gehen können. Über das gleich Thema hat sie auch ein Buch geschrieben: "Wie Buddha im Gegenwind" Mehr Informationen unter: https://gatesieben.de/podcast/gabriela-urban/ Wenn dich die Themen Weltreise und Neuanfang nach einer Krise interessieren, dann empfehle ich dir die folgenden Episoden auf GATE7: Gesa Neitzel: Als Safari-Rangerin in Afrika – https://gatesieben.de/podcast/als-safari-rangerin-in-afrika-gesa-neitzel/ Nick Martin: Sechs Jahre weltreisen als die geilste Lücke im Lebenslauf – https://gatesieben.de/podcast/nick-martin-sechs-jahre-weltreisen-als-geilste-luecke-im-lebenslauf/ Ania und Daniel: So klappt es mit deinem Traum von der Weltreise – https://gatesieben.de/podcast/weltreise-tipps/ Tobias Köhn: Mit dem Jeep durch das südliche Afrika – https://gatesieben.de/podcast/tobias-koehn/   ----------   "Abenteuer Reportagefotografie": Welche Geschichte möchtest du erzählen?   Entdecke den visuellen Storyteller in dir: Tauche mit uns ein in die faszinierende Welt der Reportagefotografie.   Hier geht's zur Webseite: https://www.abenteuer-reportagefotografie.de/   Melde dich für den Newsletter an und bleibe immer auf dem Laufenden.

Innovation. We love to talk about it, everyone wants it. Innovation is critical for people and organizations to grow. But we all mean different things when we say it. Today I have a conversation about how innovation is a conversation with Brian Ardinger. He's the director of Innovation at Nenet (which owns my student debt! Hi Nelnet!) and the host of InsideOutside.io, a community for innovators and entrepreneurs that produces a great podcast and a conference that brings together startup and enterprise organizations to talk innovation. There are three key conversations worth designing that we discuss and I want you to have your ears perked up for each as you listen to this episode. Each conversation can help you navigate the innovation process inside or outside your organization.  These three are the pre-conversation, the conversation about where to look for innovation and the conversation about patience. Brian specializes in a unique perspective on where to look for innovation. More on that in a moment. The Pre-Innovation Conversation Before you even start to talk about ideas or technology, it's essential to start with the end in mind. What kind of innovation is the company really looking for? Skip the pre-conversation and you have no idea of where you're heading. As Brian points out “without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with...the process itself of level setting... I don't think it takes a long time.” Brian and I didn't dive into tools to help with that conversation, so I put a few into the show notes. Mapping the innovation conversation can be done in lots of ways. One is thinking about evolutionary vs revolutionary change, another is about tangible vs intangible change, like rethinking policies or business models vs remaking product or space design.  I *just* did a webinar on this topic with my partner in the Innovation Leadership Accelerator, Jay Melone, hosted by the amazing people at Mural. Templates of the two innovation leadership frameworks we outlined are there in Mural for you to download and use, along with the webinar video to help you along. Also check out Mapping Innovation, by Greg Satell. You can download his playbook free in the show notes.  Where to look for innovation Brian's Inside/outside perspective is that innovation can be a conversation between the inside of a company and the outside world. Some innovation will happen internally, and some innovation can be brought from the outside in: the exchange and acquisition of ideas and technology from outside your organization is an important conversation for enterprise organizations to be having. When you're trying to innovate, it can be tempting to look in familiar places. If you're a financial technology firm, it can be tempting to look to fintech startups for what's next and to try to innovate through acquisition. But you'll also be looking were your competitors will be looking. Try an innovation approach based on Horizontal Evolution - look to the sides and edges of the landscape. Brian describes this approach as “playing a different ball game”.  The conversation about patience Innovation does not happen overnight. Real change takes time and that takes real patience. Brian also points out that organizations need to be having a bigger conversation, about what else needs to change to make real innovation flourish inside the organization. Hint: it's generally more than you bargained for.  As he says “Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model...And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins.” Often people think innovation is about the idea, but it's a much, much longer conversation. That is, in fact, the first “Myth of Innovation” from Scott Berkun's excellent book: The Myth that innovation is about an epiphany, not hard work. It was a real treat to have a conversation with Brian about some of these key issues...I hope you enjoy the episode and happy innovating! Brian on the Web: https://insideoutside.io/ https://twitter.com/ardinger https://www.nxxt.co/ Innovation Leadership Models from the Mural Webinar https://blog.mural.co/innovation-leadership Mapping Innovation by Greg Satell https://www.amazon.com/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook-Navigating-Disruptive/dp/1259862259 Download the Playbook for Free: https://www.gregsatell.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Mapping-Innovation-Playbook.pdf Horizontal Evolution https://evolutionnews.org/2015/08/horizontal_gene/ An amazing summary from Scott Berkun about his solid book, Myths of Innovation: https://scottberkun.com/2013/ten-myths-of-innnovation/ A few more gems from Greg Satell on the Rules and questions central to innovation: https://medium.com/@digitaltonto/on-december-9th-1968-a-research-project-funded-by-the-us-department-of-defense-launched-a-ee063b7585f0 https://hbr.org/2013/02/before-you-innovate-ask-the-ri Transcription: Daniel: Welcome to the conversation factory. Brian, I'm glad we made the time to make this happen. Um, the reason I'm excited to talk to you is, is that not everybody is, is open or interested in the, the analogy that a company has to have a conversation with the outside world that they can't just, you know, put up some walls and just figure everything out inside those four walls that they have to go outside and have a dialogue with the world in lots of different ways. And the way you do that is, is through helping companies think about inside innovation versus outside innovation, which is my way of like teeing up the how you, how do you talk about what you do with people when you, when you meet people, like how do you contextualize what it is that you do? Brian: Well, I think a lot of things, uh, Daniel around this particular topic, it's this whole inside/ outside innovation. It's kind of come to us over the years of working first on the outside with startups and trying to understand how do they develop new ideas and, and build things. And then, uh, you know, as I was having conversations with startups and helping them navigate that, I kept having conversations with corporations and bigger companies saying, you know, how are you doing this? How are you taking these early stage companies and through an accelerator program and that, and, and kind of getting them traction in that faster than we can do in our own walls. And so that started to have conversations with the corporations and the people inside organizations and saying, hey, how can we interact with the outside world and, and think and move and act more like a startup or, uh, become a little bit more adaptive in how we do that. So I think it was an evolution of just having conversations and figuring out what's working, what's not working in this world of change and disruption that we're living in. Daniel: Yeah. So like there's two layers here, which I think are interesting to unpack. I've learned this new term, the idea of an accelerated work environment and this idea of like, let's speed up the conversation about innovation and let's not just put our feet up and look into space and hope a great idea comes to us. Like, let's structure it and let's do it faster. And so can you talk a little bit about like how you structure an accelerator? Like what does it mean to accelerate people through the innovation process from your approach? Brian: Yeah, so I think a lot of it, like when I go in and talk to bigger companies, first thing I like to do is kind of do a level set of what does innovation even mean to the people in the room. Uh, because innovation has become such a word that's, you know, so limp, so to speak. It can mean anything to anybody. Uh, and so kind of understanding that level set of what does innovation mean to the company? How do they define it? Um, is it transformational innovation where it's, you know, we've got to become the next Uber and disrupt our industry? Or is it a innovation from the standpoint of value creation where we're looking at ways to optimize and incrementally improve what we're building? And so from that perspective, you know, it's, once you have that level set, then you can start thinking about, well, how, what are the particular tactics that you can work through depending on what kind of objectives you want to have and, and what you're trying to accomplish. Brian: So I think that's the first place we start. And then how we do that. Um, again, I think a lot of is trying to help them understand that you've got to place a lot of bets on innovation and innovation is not, um, you know, it's by default working in the new, it's working in this area of gray and this area of uncertainty, Daniel: which means there's got to be failure, right? Like there's going to have to be failure. Brian: Yeah. So, yeah, this uncertainty by default, requires you to figure out and make assumptions and, work through this... Areas of the unknown. And that's very difficult for, a lot of folks to work through. You know, especially at companies and people who are used to having a plan or having an execution model that, that they just execute on. Corporations are doing exactly what they should be doing...They figured out a business model that works and they're executing and optimizing that particular business model… Brian: And to radically change that, the people, the resources, the compensation, all of that stuff has to kind of morph or change to play in a different environment. And so I think that's where the challenge really begins. Daniel: So...I'm comfortable with taking this seemingly simple question of like, we want to innovate more and turning it into this, really stretching it out into a much more complicated conversation. Like I'm wondering if people you deal with ever get frustrated with, (you): "well, Brian, you're just making this complicated. Like, we just want to innovate. Just teach us how to innovate. Let's get started." Versus like, let's talk about your strategic goals. Like I can see how some people might get a little impatient with the, with the bigger picture, with the strategic thinking approach. Brian: Sure. Yeah. And I think, and I think it doesn't have to take a long time on to go through that particular process, but I think if you don't start off on that common definition, then you run the risk later on. And you know, why are we doing this? Why is it not working? You know, we said that, uh, you know, we need to have x, Y, z outcome and these brand new bets that you're putting on the table are not getting us an outcome that we want. Um, but you know, without having that definition, then it's sometimes hard to know if you're playing the right game to begin with. So I think, so the, the process itself of level setting I don't think takes a long time to, to make that happen. And I think, but I do think in general, to change a culture or to move the company towards having that innovation mindset set or innovation as a competency to so to speak, does take a long time. Um, but you can do that through a variety of tactics and in ways that doesn't, um, change, change it all overnight. You know, it doesn't have to be something where, um, you know, you're basically creating something brand new and, and throwing out everything that you've done in the past and, and hoping that the new thing works. Uh, it's really a series of iterative bets that you kind of de-risked these new ideas as you're, as you're approaching them into the world and seeing what happens. Daniel: Yeah. Now, now here's the, the piece that I think that, that we were talking about that's interesting is that companies can innovate through outside acquisitions or through outside collaborations, like through working with startups. And maybe that makes it seem "like, wow, that's neat, there is an easier way to do this". we don't have to do it all ourselves. We can, we can turn outwards and see, uh, not just learn from other people, but actually like bring that outside innovation inside. Like, and that seems to me like, uh, a complicated process to navigate. Like how do you facilitate, how do you facilitate that conversation and make it smooth for people? Brian: Yeah. So I think, at least for a lot of folks, you know, the idea of looking outside is not become, it's not a novel concept anymore. You know, maybe five or six years ago it was like, oh, what's one of these things called startups out there? And you know, we're, we're seeing more and more hearing more and more about it. So it's, it's not a novel concept that, hey, the ability for two women in the garage or in a dorm room to spin up something and get some traction and create something of huge value in the world...that's, that's there and that's not going away. And that's speeding up. And so I think, uh, that, uh, first part of the conversation happening, having people understand that, people have the power and tools and capabilities and access to markets and cheap technology, et Cetera, to really disrupt things is there. Brian: So if we understand that, then what can we do to kind of help navigate that? And, and I think the first thing is just, you know, raise your hand and say, Hey, there are things going on outside. Let's, uh, let's take an inventory or a map on discover what's going on...and one of the, pitfalls I see a lot of companies jump into is let's look in our industry. You know, what's happening in our industry. And that's great, and that you should do that of course. But, um, that's also probably where 99% of your competitors are also playing in that same field. And so I find a lot of times it helps to look at adjacent industries or industries far and away, uh, different from your own to see what's going on, and look for clues or models or technologies or, or talent that may give you a different advantage, if you put those pieces together differently than playing, in the same ball game as your competitors are playing. So, you know, I, I see a lot of people going to these conferences and looking for startups in the fintech space and all you have are corporations in the Fintech area looking at Fintech startups where a lot of times I think, it's better to maybe go to a more of a horizontal conference and looking at AI or uh, you know, different types of data conferences and that would give you a different perspective on how those technologies could be used in your industry or in somebody else's, industry, for example. Daniel: Do you have a story like, cause it's funny as you're telling me the story, like I'm realizing this is, this is the classic innovators trick, right? Which is, yeah, it's, and it's a classic trick from nature, right? Which is, people don't realize that evolution isn't just, um, vertical where you adapt and survive. But there's horizontal transfer of, of genes in nature. Like literally the reason we have mitochondria is because we ate them, you know, a billion years ago. And all of the energy in our bodies is made by an alien organism that has its own DNA, which I find a very, it's always just like an extraordinary fact. Um, but you know, and I've been telling my clients this for a long time too. Like what do you, do you have, uh, a story to share of a surprising transfer of, of innovation from industry to industry in case there's any doubters in the world. Brian: Yeah, it's, let, I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head, but I know I've seen it on the reverse side. For example, we've seen, because I run a conference called inside, outside/innovation. And, one of the things we do is we, uh, go out and find startups in a variety of different markets, bring them to a showcase and then bring corporations around to kind of see what they're building and why and hopefully make some connections for that. And where I've seen it happen is a lot of times where, a startup will be working in a particular vertical market, early stage, uh, and they think they've got a solution in, you know, retail or whatever, and a corporation conversation will come around and they'll say, hey, I love your technology, but you're looking in the retail space. Did you know that you could apply this to insurance? Brian: And the light bulb will kind of go off in the entrepreneur's mind. It's like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to potentially go into a different market or get traction with an early customer that I didn't have before. And so I need to happen that way. Um, and I'm sure the reverse could happen as well where a corporation, uh, is, you know, looking at a variety of startups out there and say, hey, that startup's, not in our industry, but we could definitely apply that technology to what we're doing and leverage it in some way. Daniel: So that actually sparks, I mean, I definitely, I want to make sure we talk about the conference before we, before we leave, but in a way, like you said, this thing that was really interesting about startups, you know, they're, they're trying to, uh, you know, iterate and build their own, um, you know, their own growth engine. Right? Um, I would imagine that some of them are not necessarily open to this idea of like, well look, we're, we've got our roadmap and we're trying to build our own flywheel and move it, get that moving. This, they may not be open to this, this pivot or this expansion. Uh, there's like, oh, you know, well, we're just focusing on market X and like, do you want me to also like expand our, our code base so that we can also take advantage of, of why and collaborate with these guys. Like I how do you sort of, I know you've done a lot of work on building community through, through the conference. Like how do you find startups are expanding their perspectives to being open to this collaborative conversation versus like, nope, we're just doing our thing. Brian: Yeah. And I think a lot of it depends on where the startup is in their lifecycle. A lot of the folks that we bring in are probably seed stage and so they, they haven't figured out their business model. They haven't figured out the exact markets sometimes. Uh, and they're looking for that early traction. And you know, one of the reasons we hold this in the Midwest is because, you know, venture capital and the traditional ways of kind of scaling a business in Silicon Valley don't exist out here. And so you've got to find customers. You've got to find ways to, um, to, to get that early traction. And a lot of that means, you know, getting out and finding those early customers. And so having conversations with customers, uh, real people out there and trying to define what problems are out there in the marketplace and then create a solution, uh, to meet those problems and then meet the market where it's at, I think is more effective way a lot of times in the Midwest here or in places outside of your core tech hubs that don't have the, the against the, um, the advantage of getting a venture capital and being able to have a year or two young, two year runway to figure out, uh, how, where that market is. Brian: So I think, I think so part of that is that, um, I think when I'm talking to start ups, you know, I put my "accelerate" hat on and working as a person who is helping startups through that process, a lot of times I'll quite frankly tell them to stay away from corporates until they, until they figured out some of that stuff. Cause it's very easy to go down the rabbit hole of um, hey, if we just get this one big customer on our plate, we'll be good to go. But a lot of times you know that the timing of the two types of organizations don't match up and it can very, very easily kill start up really pretty quickly. Daniel: Yeah. And it can kill them in that what they're, they're focusing, they'd lose their focus or their, they spread themselves too thin. You know, so like what, what sort of, I think beautiful about what you do is that there's this symmetry in a way you have a community driven approach to innovation through the conference you do building community, but building community so that you have a group of startups who are interested in this type of thinking so that companies can have an innovation community. So they're not just going it alone, that they have a view to what's, what's open in the world for them. I mean, I guess my question is like, have you always been so community driven? Like how did you come to value community as an approach, as in a solution to, to these challenges that you're seeing? Brian: So, I mean, I guess I've always felt community is, is a way to accelerate your learning. Uh, and I think early stage ideas, no matter what they are, whether they're inside a startup or inside a corporation, the key to a lot of those taking place in actually taking hold is that the speed of learning. How fast can you, um, take your assumptions and navigate those and understand where you're on the right track or not, and, um, get to that next stage that you need to get to. So, um, community's always been away from me, uh, personally and otherwise to help accelerate those learnings, whether it's, you know, again, connecting somebody to somebody else who can, uh, an expert in a different field or, um, someone who can help me navigate to something else that I didn't know I needed. Um, and so I think it started from that perspective and it started because, uh, you know, quite frankly, when I started a lot of this stuff seven, eight years ago, uh, the, you know, entrepreneurship and startups were, were smaller, uh, both, you know, nationally as well as in our own backyard. Brian: And so part of it was like, well, if we're going to do this, we're going to, we can't do it all are ourselves. So how do we create a community that allows startups to raise their hand and first say, Hey, I want to be entrepreneurial. I want to try some things. I want to build something. In my backyard. Yeah. And then what do I need and what am I missing and how do I then can be that catalyst to help, um, folks figure that out. Uh, and so it was an evolution of just having conversations, going to different cities, uh, meeting different people, starting a podcast, you know, telling stories, um, you know, starting a new newsletter and then, uh, eventually a conference and everything else around it. Um, and then all the while, you know, consulting and helping companies kind of figure it out on both sides. Brian: And, um, it's been fun. It's been fun to see that journey and continue to figure out what the, what the next phase is as we build it out. Daniel: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess I'd begs the question, what is, what's the next phase? Can you talk about it? Is it Secret? Brian: Yeah, no! Um, so yeah, so inside, outside innovation, you know, we started four years ago actually with the podcast and the original idea was it was called inside, outside, and it was an inside look at startups outside the valley with the idea that their stories, outside the tech hubs that need to be told and how can we help our entrepreneurs, uh, figure that stuff out. And so that's where it started. And again, it'll happen with further conversations as, as we built that particular audience and had conversations around those particular topics, we kept getting asked by innovators in bigger companies, you know, it's like, how are we doing this? Brian: How, how's this working? We want to be connected to startups. We want to understand this new way of innovating things like design thinking and lean startup in that work, uh, becoming methodologies and tactics that could apply to, you know, start ups outside of a big corporation or, or startups within a corporation that were trying to spin up new ideas. So through that we started the inside outside innovation podcast as the, as the way to have those conversations and talk about corporate innovation and how we're corporate matching with startups and how corporate venture play out differently and how we're internal innovation accelerators popping up all around. And what were the different tactics that folks were using through that. We've kind of created this weird community. It's almost like two communities, but the, the advantages by bringing them together, they both learned from each other. So that's kind of how, that's how it's kind of evolved. What's next? We're trying to figure out the third year of the insight off the innovation summit. Uh, we haven't got the dates and, and that solidify, but it's looking like we're probably going to do it sometime in the end of October. I'm in the process, I'm looking at writing a book around this concept of collaborative and innovation and this innovation as a competency. And then, um, we'll just continue with the podcast and the newsletter and keep growing our conversations with great people out there. Daniel: You know, Brian, it's really, it's, I mean it's, it's lovely to talk to you about this stuff because, you know, the, the ecological approach you have to this, to this processes, you know, it's, it's clearly organic. Like, like anything else, it's starting a conversation and then you've gotten feedback from the world and over time you've, you've built more than you've added to it. Like it's, it's a, it's just guy. It's a wave that is sort of, it has its ups and downs clearly. But you're just continuing to, to ride that wave, which was really awesome. Brian: What the, it comes back to, you know, my feeling is that obviously with the world changing in the, in the speed of change that's happening out there, everybody is going to have to take on some of the skillsets of, of the early innovator. You know, again, a startup entrepreneur or, um, or innovator are going to have to have kind of core capabilities or characteristics that allow you to adapt and be nimble and, and, uh, execute. Daniel: Unless you want a robot to do your job! Brian: Yeah. That's executing different ways that, that you didn't have or that were different in the way that you could execute in the past. So things like, you know, curiosity having a bias towards learning characteristics like having a, an a customer focus and this bias towards problem solving for that customer. You know, the, the skill of collaboration and you know, knowing that you can't build everything yourself. Brian: There's bias towards team, um, you know, some of the characteristics of just speed, you know, how can you have this bias towards action and experimentation. And then finally having kind of the reverse of that you are having patience and that bias towards that long term value creation. You know, I think those are some of the core concepts that make up, um, this new world that we're living in. And the more individuals, whether you're, you know, a traditional manager or a entrepreneurial founder, those are the skillsets that are going to take you to the next level in the world that we're living in. Daniel: It sounds like a good book already, Brian. I don't know. I like it. Brian: I'm still outlining. Daniel: It sounds like a pretty good proposal to me. Um, so listen, I, I, we're, we're up against our, our, our time together. Uh, is there anything I haven't asked you about that I should, that we should talk about? Any, any, any final thoughts? Brian: Yeah, I'm curious for, you've obviously been in the space of helping people have conversations and that I'm always curious to understand what have you learned from helping companies and people kind of navigate a, this world of change, uh, and in this world of innovation, what are some of the things that are obstacles or things that stand out that, uh, I could take back to my audience as well? Well, Daniel: I mean, do you have a hard stop in the next three minutes because, no, go ahead. We can go over a little bit. Well, I mean, for me, what really resonated in what you were talking about is the necessity for patients. And I think this is one thing that's really, really hard, um, for people because we want to go fast and we want to have results. Um, but we also need to slow things down. So one of the things that like I'm becoming more aware of in my own work is psychological safety, which people, you know, Google identified as like the main characteristic of effective teams. The ability, the willingness, the openness to saying what's happening, to be able to speak your mind, to say what's right or to say what's wrong. And that, I don't know, that stuff doesn't really come for free. Uh, it's a really, you have to cultivate that environment. Daniel: And so for me, you know, my angle and entry point is always that somebody, somebody has to design that conversation. Um, if a group of, you know, if a group of people is gonna talk about what we're going to do next and how to innovate, we can either contribute content or we can contribute process. Um, if the, to me, the most important and precious conversation is when a group of people is coming together, the fact that you're willing to, that you have a framework, I'm guessing, to stretch out the conversation about what's our innovation roadmap and where are we placing our bets allows people to say like, okay, what's my holistic view of this? It creates, it creates safety, right? It creates a moment where, where we can have the conversation about innovation, we can have the conversation about how we're gonna brainstorm. Daniel: We can have the conversation about how we're going to, uh, evaluate ideas and how we know if they're good or not. Um, and so for me, I think, um, I feel like I'm ranting now, but I was at a problem framing workshop, uh, with my, my friend Jay Malone, who has a company called new haircut. They do a lot of design sprint training and he was teaching a problem framing workshop. And at the end of the workshop, he presented, uh, you know, on one hand, a very straightforward, like, here, this is what problem framing is in the essence. Like, uh, who has the problem, uh, why does it matter? Um, when does it happen? Uh, like, you know, think about like, where to play and how to win. And this one woman said like, well, yeah, what about, uh, uh, how do we know when it's been solved? You know, how do we know if it's working? And this is, I think one of the biggest challenges with, with companies is we don't know like what good looks like. We don't know when to start. We don't know how to stop working and grinding it out. Um, well, and the metrics Brian: are so different from existing business model versus a new business model that you don't even know who the customers are and the value proposition you're creating at the beginning. Daniel: Yeah. So I mean, for me, like I find the, one of the biggest challenges of innovation is that people bring me in to say like, okay, let's help this team coach through this process. Meanwhile, they've already got a job that takes 100% of their time. Um, and they look at me and they're like, this guy has just given us extra work to do. You know, the workshop that I come in is taking them away from their quote unquote real job. The, the work that I asked them to do to go out and do the interviews and to, to get customer contact looks like it's taking away time for them. And so this idea that that innovation's like something you can buy or pay someone else to do. To me, I want people to be earning their own innovation. But the problem is that most people are at 110% capacity. Daniel: And You bring in somebody like me who says, okay, let's do some design thinking stuff. Let's do a, you know, even if it's a week long sprint, which doesn't give you everything you need, you know, if it's a six week process, it's people are like, Oh man, that was great, but oh, that was hard and I never want to do that again. It's like, it's really, really challenging to get people to find time to innovate. And that's frustrating to me. Brian: Absolutely. Daniel: As a person who just really wants people to get their hands dirty with it so that they value it and, and participated in it. So, I don't know. I don't know what the balance is there. That's... I don't know. I don't know if that's a question with an answer, but Brian: I don't know if there's a clear answer for that one. No, no. Daniel: that, oh, so, yeah, I mean that, that's, that's, that's my perspective. I don't know if that, if that's helpful to you at all, but that's, that's… Brian: Very much so, very much so. Daniel: Is there, is there anything else we should I this, this is definitely the shortest episode. You know, I'm, I'm sort of enjoying or slash you know, floundering in the, in the 30 minute time zone. So I just want to make sure that we've covered everything that you want to cover … Brian: No, it's been great, thanks for having me on the show and the opportunity to talk about insideoutside.io and everything we're doing. Daniel: Yeah. So like that's the, that's the final question. Like where, uh, where can people find all things insideoutside and Brian Ardinger on the Internet. Brian: Yeah. Thanks Daniel. Yeah. So, uh, obviously you can go to the website insideoutside.io that has our podcast, our newsletters sign up for that. Um, and obviously I'm very, um, out there on Twitter and Linkedin in that happy to have conversations. So reach out and say hi. Daniel: Well we will do that. Um, Brian, I really appreciate you taking the time. It's really, it's always interesting to have some patience and just slow down and have some of these conversations about this stuff, that's I think really, really important. Like you said, the future is unwritten and uncertain and all of us need to have skills of adaptability, the inside and I think both sides of the ecosystem that you're a co-creating - the innovator, the startups need to learn from big companies how to scale and big companies need to learn from startups, how to be more nimble. So I think it's really a really important dialogue that you're facilitating. It's really cool. Brian: Thanks for having me on the show!

Nich is a 28-year-old convert to the church and has been married to Kelsey for almost 2 years now. Father to the almost 1-year-old Evelynn. Having dealt with depression and ADHD for most of my life but not getting diagnosed and treatment until my mid-20's caused a lot of problems that were not approached until they were deeply ingrained. Overcoming those problems while also learning marriage and fatherhood has brought the issues to the forefront where the work has been done and continues to be done.Kelsey is a 26-year-old from Provo, UT (born, raised, and still living there and an active member of the Church). She and Nich have been married just shy of two years and are the parents of an 11-month-old baby girl. She struggles with high stress and anxiety, which combined with Nich's depression and ADHD projects a steep learning curve in motherhood and wife-hood (wife-ing?). As the daughter of Dan and Julie, she has been following Dan's research and culture-changing methods for years and says "Dan may not be involved in the day-to-day of our relationship, but his ideas certainly are."[music]0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthened their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have in studio my daughter and son-in-law, and they're gonna be talking about navigating communication while struggling with anxiety and depression. So we wanna welcome you here and appreciate you taking the time. They actually volunteered, they said they wanted to talk about this, so I appreciate them being vulnerable and willing to share their personal experiences about the difficulties and maybe even successes of dealing with anxiety and depression in the relationship and how you navigate those discussions. So let me turn it over to Kelsey and Nich and have you introduce yourself and tell us some more details about your struggles.0:01:17 Kelsey: Well, we've been listening in on and learning about what my dad talks about through the groups that he does and stuff like that and we wanted to be a part of this if we could. I'm Kelsey, my husband is Nich and we have an 11th month old cute little girl. And...0:01:43 Daniel: She is cute. [chuckle]0:01:45 Kelsey: And we live in Utah in Provo, we're both active members of the Church.0:01:52 Nich: We just renewed our temple recommends actually before we came out.0:01:56 Kelsey: Yes, we did. We were visiting Dan, my dad, and my mom in California and so we get this opportunity to be together today.0:02:06 Nich: Yeah.0:02:07 Daniel: You wanna tell us more, Nich?0:02:09 Nich: Yeah, I am a convert to the Church, grew up in a non-denominational house, and then when I was almost 20, so about eight years ago, I joined the Church and varying levels of activities since then but we actually met on the mission.0:02:28 Kelsey: Yeah, we served our mission, missions, is it plural or singular?0:02:33 Nich: Singular, yeah.0:02:34 Kelsey: We served our mission in Seattle, Washington. So we were in the same MTC group, actually, so we started at the same time and then I got home five-and-a-half months before he did. So that's kind of a fun aspect of our relationship. We have the mission to share with each other. And Nich mentioned that he joined the Church about eight years ago. I'm 26, he's 28. So that's about where we are in life.0:03:05 Daniel: Yes. So who's, I realize there's a bleed of emotions here, or not bleeding, but an overlap rather. Who's the one who struggles with anxiety and who's the one who struggles with depression?0:03:20 Kelsey: I struggle with anxiety and Nich has the...0:03:24 Nich: We could go both. We could say both.0:03:26 Kelsey: Grand experience of having both.0:03:27 Daniel: I, thank you, that's absolutely true but Nich is the one who struggles predominantly with depression and anxiety is Kelsey. So, you've been married for how long?0:03:41 Nich: One month short of two years.0:03:43 Kelsey: Yeah.0:03:44 Nich: So almost two years.0:03:45 Kelsey: One month short of two years.0:03:45 Nich: So, mathematically our daughter was born eight days before our first anniversary.0:03:51 Kelsey: Yup. [chuckle]0:03:53 Daniel: So tell us about what it's been like? Now, let's start in your dating phase. So you guys knew each other on the mission. We don't necessarily need... You weren't dating on the mission, but I think you had exposure to each other's personalities there. But let's focus more on the dating phase. Did you, how did you navigate anxiety and depression? Was it something that was present in the dating phase?0:04:20 Kelsey: Well, I think we had a sense of what each other kind of struggled with just from knowing each other on the mission. I knew that Nich had things he was working on... I mean, then elder Henry, it's weird to refer to him in that now, but I knew he had things he was working on, 'cause when we were on MTC together, he would get called down and go and have a session with his therapist there or what I thought was probably a therapist, I'd kind of fill in the blanks. So we knew a little bit that we struggled then. Actually on our first date, I remember saying some of my struggles and then saying, I cannot play therapist girlfriend, so I cannot be just, like if I'm gonna be in a relationship with you, it needs to be... I can't just play the emotional help card.0:05:11 Daniel: So, Kelsey, let me pause there 'cause the audience doesn't know who you are and I understand why you said that, but hearing that for the first time, I think will sound a little cold. You wanna give it a little background on why you said on the first date you're not gonna play therapist girlfriend, do you mind sharing a little bit about that?0:05:28 Kelsey: Yeah. So the reason why I said that is 'cause I'd had previous relationships where my boyfriend had some pretty deep struggles and I assigned myself the responsibility for his emotions. And I've always taken that as I was self-sacrificing and I'm helping and I need to be there for them but I would... All of their emotional struggles were suddenly my responsibility, and I think that can be really loving, but I also found that it was really tiring and that I put an unhealthy load on myself. Yeah, it was just an unhealthy amount of responsibility I assigned to myself, that I needed to be the one to help them navigate all of their emotional struggles.0:06:25 Daniel: You put a 110% into your relationships. And a couple of the boyfriends that you had previously struggled with severe depression, and there was definitely that... I'm gonna use the term "co-dependency," That enmeshment, where you felt a lot of responsibility for their emotions. So, here, meeting Nich, recognizing he's very open about his depression, he made that clear. And you're pragmatic, so you don't mince your words, but it wasn't... I guess, let me ask. Nich, I wasn't there. Was that a shock to hear Kelsey say that?0:07:00 Nich: I wouldn't say it was a shock. It was actually, in my opinion, quite refreshing. Because in my past, I had had people try to do that to me, and I think both Kelsey and I struggled with co-dependency in previous relationships. And having that honesty at that moment showed that this would be something more than just a nice, fun relationship. It would be something that would, actually, be a serious relationship that we wanted to have and that would help both of us with that, and not help each other in bad ways.0:07:32 Kelsey: Yeah, we jumped into being pretty serious pretty quickly. And "serious" is a vague word, but we were okay with being really emotionally open really fast. Once he got home from his mission, we started going on dates. And I think part of that was just that we were really willing to be open with each other about the struggles that we had, and along with... See, you said that me saying right off the bat that I didn't wanna be a therapist girlfriend was cold, along with...0:08:11 Daniel: Just the way you said it here. I just didn't want the audience...0:08:13 Kelsey: Right, yes. [chuckle]0:08:15 Daniel: "I don't know who you are, Nich, but I'm not gonna be your therapist girlfriend."[chuckle]0:08:18 Daniel: I just want the audience to know that that's not what went down.0:08:21 Kelsey: No, no, there was some background with that, and I had a follow-up comment.0:08:26 Daniel: "Great, you wanna go out to dinner now?"[chuckle]0:08:29 Kelsey: Oh, I said with that... 'Cause we continued to have a conversation about that, 'cause it was... We felt it was gonna be a big thing to navigate in our relationship. But part of the conversation then was that I didn't want to assign myself the responsibility for all of his emotional struggles in that unhealthy way that I had before. But at the same time, I told him that I wanted him to know that I wanted to hear about it when he was struggling, I didn't want him to feel like he was alone.0:09:05 Daniel: That's a great, great clarification. You weren't abandoning him, you weren't saying, "I'm not gonna be a part of this." You were saying, "I wanna do this right. I'm gonna learn how to do this in a healthy way." And that's Evelyn, your daughter, in the background. Everybody can hear.0:09:21 Kelsey: She's looking at us funny, 'cause we're wearing headphones. [chuckle]0:09:25 Daniel: Yeah. And so, I think that was a very appropriate thing to do. And Nich, you were saying, that was refreshing. What was your experience like in previous relationships?0:09:38 Nich: Not good, but that's because most of my relationships before that had happened in high school, which no one's had a great relationship in high school, except for the very rare people. And so, it felt a lot more mature and adult in that sense. And that's what made it so refreshing, was it didn't feel like I'd be dating someone that wasn't emotionally mature at all, but someone that was comfortable in who they were and what they actually wanted in their life and relationships at the time.0:10:10 Daniel: So, why was it distracting or not helpful in your relationship for others to feel like they had to save you? Or... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What was difficult about those relationships where they were taking that responsibility?0:10:27 Nich: It was enabling. I felt...0:10:29 Daniel: You recognize that?0:10:30 Nich: Yeah. In retrospect, I recognize that. At the time, I'm an idiot and don't recognize it.0:10:37 Daniel: I wouldn't say that, but it is hard to recognize that in the moment.0:10:41 Nich: I personally was an idiot. If anyone else is feeling that, that's up to them to decide what that feels like. But really, looking back on it, it was super enabling, and it made it easy for me to subconsciously manipulate my way through the relationship in that sense, then.0:11:00 Daniel: So, what did you do? You had a few dates, testing up the relationship. Tell us how it started to develop.0:11:07 Kelsey: Well, at the risk of just sounding super Mormon-y, one of the reasons that we were okay with being so emotionally serious so fast is because we both felt really strongly in a spiritual way, the Spirit prompted us that we were meant to really dive into this relationship and really try to make it work. And we felt pretty soon into the relationship, probably less than a month, that, "This," in Nich's words, "could be it." Search could be over, we could make this work long-term and be together and get married and raise a family. And so, that was the guiding force, factor, in the beginning of our relationship, was just, we really wanted to dive in and follow what we felt like God would want us to do with each other and for each other.0:12:01 Daniel: So, you set these healthy boundaries at the beginning, you felt the Spirit in your life, and I would call that authentic, super-Mormon-y. Gosh, I'm gonna struggle speaking today. I get what you're saying there, but it sounds very authentic. You both were praying about this, you're trying to figure it out. You liked each other, you established those healthy boundaries. So was it easy from there on out?0:12:30 Kelsey: No, not at all.0:12:32 Daniel: So what was the... Well, go ahead, go ahead.0:12:35 Kelsey: I think when anybody's dating even if you're really emotionally mature and are open with each other, there's things that don't fully get opened up because you're dating... You're learning about each other, you don't just... You're not an open box right, right from the start. And in all honesty... We were engaged by Easter, so we started dating in after Christmas time, and then we were engaged by Easter, so it was pretty quick. So, obviously, we couldn't have known everything about each other's emotional struggles and how to navigate that. And then less than a year into marriage, add the responsibility of a baby into there. So no, it hasn't. It's definitely been bumpy, trying to navigate each other's way of thinking and emotional needs and that's, I guess, that's kind of what we wanna focus today.0:13:27 Daniel: Yeah, so share with us the first time in your dating relationship this became an issue, issue meaning you're facing the realities of depression and anxiety and how it was affecting your relationship. So the first part, when did you experience your first difficulty? However you wanna define that, whether it was major or something that you consciously had to navigate, what was that like and how did you navigate it?0:14:00 Kelsey: So I would say the first one was, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nich, but when we were... Because we knew that we could try to be pretty serious and that we were wanting to go towards getting engaged and getting married pretty early and actually Nich was having struggled feeling like he was accepted into my family because they didn't know him, right, they hadn't even met him. And all of a sudden it's like, I want you to meet Nich and we're probably gonna get married. And Nich had expressed to me once that growing up in a non-denominational Christian household, he had this idea that getting married to an LDS girl means being kept in this open arms LDS family and he felt a little bit judged, because my family was wary because we were getting together so quickly and they didn't even know who he was.0:15:00 Kelsey: So I would say that was probably the first struggle that we had to navigate is him not feeling like he was immediately accepted into my supposedly in traditional LDS family, which I don't think we're very traditional at all. If, I don't know how much Dan has shared in the podcast before, but Dennis, my step dad, and so I have two sets of parents that are both wonderful, and so that's in and of itself, not very traditional. And Nich wasn't feeling very accepted by any of the four of them plus my sisters for a while there. And I think that's probably... That first time we had to navigate through.0:15:36 Daniel: Yeah, and I'll speak from the perspective of the family and that was accepting, I think, we were pretty accepting, I think, we were very cautious because we didn't know Nich and we knew the struggles with depression and the tendency for you to date with individuals with depression. And I wanna pause there real quick, 'cause again, we have a variety of listeners and when we talk about anxiety and depression, I think it might be good to put a level on that. And so it's not just your common anxiety. Kelsey, you clarify, there's a high level, you're a high-functioning very anxious person. And Nich, how would you describe your depression?0:16:20 Nich: I would say that I typically am very high functioning with it. I do still struggle with suicidal thoughts occasionally, and Kelsey I have talked about that, not as much as we probably should thinking about it, but I've attempted suicide in the past. It's made it that there are days that I just feel completely shut down but I can still get out of bed, I can still do things. So it's not to that level and it never has been, but it's a lot more emotionally taxing. And then you mix that with me being a pretty severe introvert where I can get socially tired listening to a podcast, that it makes it nearly impossible in those moments to want to reach out and talk to anyone because I feel like I'm already exhausted from my depression, just talking to someone's gonna make it even more tiring.0:17:10 Daniel: Yes, yes and we were aware of that, and so we weren't actually at the time aware of how severe the depression was but we knew that we were being cautious and so rightfully so, you're absolutely correct. There was a concern for us and we didn't know Nich and it wasn't that we didn't wanna accept him in and it was just who is he and we were concerned. Were you getting pulled into another relationship that you felt like you to care and you were showing signs of maturity, way beyond your previous relationships. And I think that put a lot of ease in to Mom and I's side of it. Yeah, that we...0:17:47 Kelsey: I think because of the other relationships, I right off the bat, recognized that there was the potential for me to want to become the what I had been named the therapist girlfriend, the caretaker girlfriend, the emotional support system for everything that depression, anxiety, and actually ADHD, all piles up together. And so we knew going into it, I didn't know the depth. And I think we're still learning the depth of what each other is struggling with emotionally but we knew going into it, that there would be... That we would need to be able to focus on those kind of differences and that we needed to do it while still remaining healthy, and that I wanted to make sure that I didn't simply... How do I word that? The word that just keeps coming to me is assigning unnecessary responsibility.0:18:41 Daniel: That's huge. It is very hard to communicate that because in a relationship you care about each other. And the last thing you wanna see is the other person suffering, and that is difficult when somebody struggles with anxiety or depression, you wanna rescue them, that's a very natural... Or you wanna make it more comfortable or you wanna be... You want your love to be able to heal and uplift that person and it is hard to describe. And that's why we generally use the words or phrases setting healthy boundaries which we were seeing, and we were very impressed. And it sounds like, Nich, you were appreciating that. So what was one of these times, at the beginning of your relationship where you had to really focus on being mindful with these boundaries?0:19:33 Kelsey: I'm remembering right after we got married, or not right, before we got married, actually, Nich was trying to navigate. He had done some school before his mission and he was trying to navigate what life choices he wanted to make now, the big life decisions. Like do I want to go to school so I wanna go to a trade school, do I wanna, how am I gonna start a career? And obviously with having, being majorly introverted, so the whole build up a network and make all these friends was not his cup of tea at all, that was an nope right out of that one, but he also didn't wanna just sit around and do nothing and stew, because that builds up anxiety, which depression and anxiety are such friends with that. You wanna talk more about how you were feeling then, 'cause that was a big thing?0:20:20 Nich: Yeah, 'cause I made it so much worse, because it was... At the time I was 25, 26-ish, and I had done some school before and failed miserably at it, for a lot of mental health issues, and not knowing exactly what I wanted to do is my life but felt like, well, that's what you do after you graduate high school, you go to college. And so we had that, and I simply felt that there was nothing that I was qualified to do and that anything I did choose to do schooling-wise or anything would take several years, I wouldn't be able to support the family and all of that. And it was a huge drain and when we were talking about it, I don't know if Kelsey remembers this, but I remember well, 'cause it was something I was thinking, but thinking that one of the things that I really wanted to do was make that decision for me and not... Let Kelsey help, let her inform and have her opinion, but that if it wasn't something that I chose to do and wanted to do that I really wouldn't be happy in whatever choice I made in that.0:21:36 Daniel: So you're recognizing that in your fear of the future, you didn't have clarity there, you didn't wanna fall into the habit of depending on Kelsey to guide through this, you had this desire to differentiate, is what we call it, and to make this decision on your own. That's an interesting experience because, with depression and setting healthy boundaries in this relationship, it's important to have that distinction, but there's also a risk that you're doing it all alone and not receiving help. Did you experience that?0:22:10 Kelsey: The first thing that comes to mind with that is that I like to have a plan. It eases my anxiety. I like to know exactly what's gonna happen and how I'm supposed to be involved with it. So, while I knew that he needed to make this decision on his own when... And he had a job then that he didn't really like, he worked with a hotel chain, which is a fine hotel chain, but this particular management wasn't awesome, so he would come home angry and not satisfied with where he was at, and I would just want him to make a plan for how he could be more positive, how he could move in the direction that he wanted to. And I kinda wanted to be able to...0:22:45 Daniel: Make Nich happy.0:22:46 Kelsey: Make Nich happy and lay out steps that would make it work, and like the now steps were, okay, well, you can only change you. And I would give them all of the motivational talk about that and then what do we wanna do to make it so that you can move out, maybe get out of this job or see if there's opportunity for promotion or whatever it is. And I wanted there to be a plan that eases my anxiety. And because he was expressing that he wanted to make this decision on his own, I was thinking, well, then, am I not allowed to say anything? This is all up in the air. It's making my anxiety spike so much and I wanna help you, but I also know that your emotions are your responsibility but I don't like feeling this tension between us, because you haven't figured your life out. It's really hard and I think all recently married couples kind of experience that, because usually you're still finishing school, or you've just finished school and you're figuring out what kinds of things feel like your life.0:23:43 Kelsey: And I was really worried about Nich, because he had told me that school was such a... Just a not good experience before his mission, and so we wanted to find something else, but me being someone who was like on the regular track, I went to high school, then went to BYU and graduated from BYU and so I was like, well, that doesn't make sense, you just do the thing so you can feel confident that you have the school you want. And I knew that he was gonna be a little less traditional with that and I didn't know how to help him navigate it, but I also wanted to help him not be so unsatisfied and hence depressed with the way that he was thinking, and so that was a huge... It still is kind of a big thing to navigate, even though he has more of a life plan now. I need to... My need for a plan makes it so that I bug him about it a lot, and that increases both of our anxiety, even though I'm trying to assuage mine.0:24:37 Daniel: Not knowing what Nich's plan was, was spiking your anxiety.0:24:40 Kelsey: Oh, a ton.0:24:41 Daniel: So you're dealing with a handful of things there, wanting Nich to be happy and help him while also managing your own anxiety. You don't know what's happening tomorrow, a year from now, we're getting married and we need to figure this out. And so you're trying to nail it down and trying to figure out what's your part? A great example there. So what was your experience like, Nich, in that experience?0:25:06 Nich: The big thing is, and Kelsey and I have talked about this several times since then, is that Kelsey needs to let me be happy in the way that I am happy. And that's really difficult, 'cause usually she gets so anxious about it 'cause it's like, but you need a plan that I like, which makes sense, you wanna plan that you like. That's what everyone wants in their life. But what we've had to navigate with that is that my way of going about and thinking about things isn't nearly as plan-oriented as hers is and it... That's difficult, but it's because I've set up a lot of plans in my past and they never came to fruition, and I felt really hurt by all of that and so I've been trying to figure out, okay, how do I set a goal and a plan without it actually not coming to fruition, therefore it really hurts.0:26:05 Daniel: Which feeds into your depression and your sense of failure.0:26:08 Nich: Bcause I'm like, "Well, I couldn't even accomplish that," and that's why I didn't wanna go to, why I was so apprehensive about school again and feeling that about a career was I've had all these major plans and failures in the past, that's just gonna repeat itself again because look at what's already happened, which getting married should have shown that not true to be... Not to be true, but...0:26:32 Kelsey: Something that comes to mind too, with all of this, is not only do I like to have a plan. A huge difference between me and Nich is that I like to talk things out until they make sense and I like to keep saying more words, even if we're talking to...0:26:50 Daniel: It's already getting overwhelming, isn't it?0:26:52 Kelsey: Until it makes sense, because that's how I like to plan, I like to be on the same page, and I feel like the best way to do that is to talk it out, but the way that Nich thinks is more, I'm not gonna say anything until this whole thing is more formulated in my mind. And so I'm sitting here like, why is isn't he saying anything, and why can't we have a conversation about this and why is he keeping all this from me, and he needs to do this by himself, but I wanna be in on it, and... And my thoughts are that fast. Just little fireballs. I don't know what he's thinking, and I want to, and I want to contribute to what he's thinking, and there's been a lot of times when I'll ask a lot of questions and then Nich will say, Kelsey, I'm thinking about this, I don't want you to think, I'm not thinking about it at all, I am I'm just not ready to formulate it into a conversation.0:27:43 Kelsey: And that stresses me out because I like talking things through, even when they don't make. Especially when they don't make sense to myself yet. I'll talk through something that I'm worried about till I'm blue in the face, and Nich will not say a word, and then I'll be like, "So what, so what are you thinking?" He's like, "A lot of things. I can't talk about it 'cause I'm thinking so many things you just laid a lot on me." So I'm a talker. He's a thinker, and I think out loud, and he thinks in his head. So those are very polarized when we... Especially if we're both feeling anxious. The more anxious I feel, the more I want to talk, the more anxious he feels, the less he wants to talk as the more he wants to just be like, just let me be by myself. I'm gonna put on noise canceling headphones and I don't hate you, but I want out.0:28:31 Daniel: Let me go think, give me room to think. So what did you do? So here, you're noticing these difficulties, not easy, it's very messy. What did you do, how did you or have you learned to navigate that in a way that's supportive of each other, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that your anxiety is going down. For example, one thing you said is Nich will say, "I can't talk about this, I'm definitely thinking about it." But that would spike your... So on one hand he's communicating, he's saying, I need you to back off. Let me... Give me some space here, which is great communication, but stressful to you because it's not the information that supports you. And so have you two found a way to navigate?0:29:23 Kelsey: Well, we even had to work up to... Like me being able to read that that's what he was saying 'cause sometimes he wouldn't actually say, "I can't do this right now. I can't have a conversation, but I am thinking about it." He would instead kinda just halt the conversation. He's continuing the conversation in his brain, but he would halt the conversation with me and either put on his ear buds or go into a different room, and I'm just like, "We weren't done, where are you going?" And he'd be like, "I was done with that conversation right now," and then I think that he just wants to drop it and he's being very uncaring and it's just, I'm saying all these things about how he's mad at me now, and he's annoyed. So we've had to work up to me knowing that what that means isn't, "I'm mad and you've offended me," but instead, "That's a lot to process. I'm thinking about it. I wanna shelve this conversation and start it up another time," and the more that I bring it up like, "Oh, have you thought about that yet?" Twenty minutes later, the more anxiety he has.0:30:22 Kelsey: And so I just have to... Okay, I realize now, it's hard for me, but I have to say, okay, I probably shouldn't bring this up again until he brings it up, which for me needing a little bit is going into our bedroom and saying a prayer and then I'm fine. For him, it could be, it could be 20 minutes if he really wants to talk about it, right then but it can also be five days, and five days is a really long time for someone who wants to talk about things right now.0:30:51 Daniel: Yes, it is.0:30:51 Kelsey: And we've had to build up to a spot where I'm getting to be a little bit more okay with him needing to shelf it and that's hard. And then I'm sure I make it harder for him when I keep bringing it up over and over and over again.0:31:10 Daniel: I appreciate what you said, though, you recognize that's what he needs and a mistake that a lot of couples make, and I'm sure his... It's a tendency, I don't... It's probably not fair to say it's a mistake, it's a very natural tendency to say, "Oh, Nich isn't talking to me. If he loved me, he would understand he needs to talk to me." And it becomes not about the depression, but the degree of love in the relationship, you start to assign degrees of love. Him walking away is an indicator he doesn't love me, and that's a dangerous place to be in, because it has very little to do with love when our minds are running wild, our depression's kicking in. Our anxiety's kicking in. So what I was hearing is you were consciously keeping it on the forefront of your mind, okay? He's not trying to hurt me, he's not falling out of love with me, he's not doing this because he hates me, he's struggling. And then you would go say a prayer to help manage your own anxiety. Is that successful every time? Do you do find going and praying, is the right balm for you?0:32:23 Kelsey: When I'm in the right enough mindset to decide to go do that, yes. A lot of the times it's, "No, I wanna sit here and I wanna hash this out until it's done," and there can't be any other thing that happens.0:32:35 Daniel: And that's how we got our taxes done. Oh, boy. Sometimes you do... You have to, right, because there's a deadline. I may wanna address that in a minute, here, but so, but specifically for you, what are some other ways maybe that you...0:32:49 Kelsey: Well, and you say that it would have had to be on the forefront of my mind and I have had... That's a subconscious narrative all the time is this, "Well, if he's abandoning conversation, does that mean he doesn't actually care about how I feel? And he just is fed up with me and he wants to be just done with this." And then of course if I'm in a high anxiety mode I escalate done with this conversation, to done with me and like he wants to leave now, and I don't know when he's gonna come back, and that doesn't happen.0:33:19 Daniel: Leaving is not the marriage. Out the door, take a walk, is that what you mean?0:33:24 Kelsey: Right. Well, like I said, when I'm feeling really, really anxious sometimes I think... Well, for the sake convenience he probably wouldn't divorce me, but he wants to be gone. I would think he doesn't want to be in this right now. He wants an escape. And...0:33:42 Daniel: You mean as an excuse? I don't wanna deal with this. I'm leaving.0:33:47 Kelsey: Yeah, kind of. And when I say leaving, I realize that that can be vague, and I kinda joke that... We want to stay together. We've, I come from a family that has divorce and remarriage and from the beginning we were like, "We have some things to work through. We are going to have things to work through, but we wanna stay together." And so I know that I don't ever have to be afraid that he's literally going to want to leave as in divorce me, but I think he doesn't wanna be dealing with this right now, and that means he doesn't wanna be dealing with me and that can create a lot of...0:34:22 Daniel: You internalize and it becomes part of your anxiety. So what do you do to get yourself out of that, that mindset?0:34:30 Kelsey: Up until super recently, actually, I needed him to talk me out of it, I really craved for him to say, "No, that's not how I'm feeling. I don't wanna leave you, I'm overwhelmed by the situation, but it's not your fault and I'll work through it, just give me some time." And when he wouldn't say things like that, but I was just supposed to infer it, and I didn't realize that yet, I would be really scared that like, "He's fed up with me, he doesn't wanna be in this relationship, he wants an out," and so that's something that now that he has told me some of the things that go through his head in those high anxiety moments, I can kind of remind myself of that when a high anxiety moment comes back again that he doesn't need to say it every time. And like I said, up until recently, I wanted him to say it every time, every argument I wanted him to say what he was feeling and reassure me and I realized that that's not who he is and that my need for validation of my emotions was very high.0:35:38 Kelsey: It still is, I'm working on it, but... And that I can remind myself of what he's told me in the past and trust what he's told me in the past without needing to hear it every single time he got angry or anxious or upset or whatever...0:35:50 Daniel: Overwhelmed.0:35:51 Kelsey: Title you want to call the emotion. Because I needed the validation every time and I'm currently working on being able to trust what he's already said and not needing a repeat on the validation every time.0:36:05 Daniel: What you're describing there is, I think, such an important takeaway. I assure you that there are many listening to this who also struggle with anxiety, depression and what you just described is breaking a cycle. I liked the words you said, your need for validation... Validation is valid, alright, it's... And there's this very... There's this interesting place because we feel love, we feel connection when we have those feelings validated, but what you're experiencing is this escalation of depression and anxiety. And you just said exactly that. I knew I needed him to reassure me that he wasn't gonna leave, but then you said, I had to remember our previous conversations, and that's where I found comfort, and it's still hard.0:37:03 Daniel: So there's this interesting place where your anxiety is driving the need for the validation versus the actual need for validation. And I wanna be careful with that, 'cause that's a very difficult place to differentiate and discern because when your anxiety and depression are kicking in, it's a concrete need, isn't it? It's like, tell me you're not leaving now, but you're recognizing, okay, no, no, no, no, this is my anxiety, I need to, I need to take responsibility, just as much as I told Nich he needs to take responsibility for his depression. That's impressive. And that is a very difficult place to be in.0:37:41 Kelsey: And just as a follow-up to that, sometimes it'll even be while I'm trying to remind myself and trust the things that he's told me in the past, I'll actually say things like, "This is what I'm feeling from you, I'm worried about this. Would it be truthful of me if I said his is what you're thinking right now?" And then because I said the words and he didn't need to, 'cause he's not feeling put together enough to say it, he'll then be like, "Yes, that's right." And then I could reassure myself without needing him to do it, but I needed a little extra assurance of him confirming what I've trusted from him before, if that makes sense.0:38:20 Daniel: Wonderful, yeah. Nich, anything to add to that?0:38:24 Nich: I would say, for me, a lot of the time, the word that we've been using a lot recently is that we feel overwhelmed with anxiety or depression or just our emotions in general, and like Kelsey's been saying for her it's... She blasted at you. I would go beyond a shotgun to like a machine gun effect on it sometimes, versus so much in such quick succession, and terrible accuracy at the same time, because that's what you end up doing. Well, for me, it becomes my mind becomes foggier and foggier and foggier and that's why it becomes so difficult for me to want to reach out and actually cut through that and recognize that those moments when she's like, "This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. Is that accurate?" And it's like, "Okay, the words are there. I can agree or disagree with that, and that can provide me some clarity and some guidance through that right now."0:39:22 Nich: And so that's always been beneficial to me, but I also have to keep it at the front of my mind, some of those times where it's, okay, I only have half a sentence right now, I have to trust that if I begin that, that will cut through and provide my clarity for me and that I can actually start to talk and actually can break out of this right now, even though I feel absolutely terrified that I don't know where the sentence is ending and I don't wanna be Michael Scott from The Office, thank you.0:39:52 Kelsey: Yeah, that's a huge thing too, is that when I'm feeling anxious, I obviously I want him to respond, I want him to tell me what he's thinking, and he doesn't like to unless he's done thinking, which can take days or more.0:40:11 Daniel: Or more. Is this complete silence or is it just on that particular point or topic, or does it depend?0:40:19 Nich: It's usually on that point or topic, I would say, because if we can, if we end up changing the topic to something more...0:40:24 Kelsey: Light.0:40:25 Nich: Light, yeah, less serious like, "Oh, what are we gonna do for dinner," which typically ends up, "I don't know, let's figure that out," or like, "Oh, okay," then we just take a break and then it's, "Hey, what's on TV," or something like that, that can break it out, because then it's a new direction, a new focus and I don't feel the pressure to respond.0:40:50 Daniel: A distraction.0:40:50 Nich: Yeah.0:40:51 Kelsey: But when we are really, when... Well, maybe it's just me, when I'm really focused on a topic, because again, I want to hash it out all right then, and I'll say everything that's on my mind. And then if it's just like nothing, just like, not even crickets, I won't even say crickets, just nothing.0:41:08 Daniel: The crickets are scared.0:41:09 Kelsey: And then I feel like I've just left this big emotional blob and then a slight inquiry at the end and I'm getting nothing and then that spikes my anxiety. Because in those moments, it is complete silences. I don't wanna talk about any of what you've just said at all right now because it's all running through my head, and that can be hard to deal with, but again, I will say I have learned that I need to say what I need after I've expressed all that stuff. If I have the clarity to say it beforehand, I'll say, okay, I'm feeling a lot of emotions, this is what I need right now. If it's either listen or confirm if what I'm feeling is crazy or not, then I'll spill out everything, and then because I've already told him what result I need from him, he can respond. And sometimes when I'm not feeling clarity enough to do that, I will say all the stuff because I'm overwhelmed and then say, "Okay, now that I've said all of that I realized that what I need from you right now, is blank."0:42:15 Kelsey: And then that gives us both something to focus on, and often I solve my own problem, but sometimes, often, he can help me solve it, now that I've given him something more narrow out of my big emotional balloon I just popped in his face.0:42:29 Daniel: So what I like about that is you're communicating right now. I know you can't, so I'm putting it, obviously, in my words, but is how I'm gonna summarize it. It sounds like, Nich, you're overwhelmed, and I see that. I also have a need to verbalize what's going on here, and this is what I'll probably need afterwards. What do you do in those situations where you're recognizing she's communicating? I need to verbalize this, and maybe she doesn't always have to communicate that verbally or at least... Hey, heads up. I got to vocalize this, you know, we're now, it's two years in the marriage and you know, she needs to share her thoughts and you want to provide her that space to share. How do you go about doing that?0:43:15 Nich: I think a lot of the time, recently, it usually happens at night, when we're just laying in bed before we attempt to sleep. And it helped recently that Kelsey even said that typically the thing that she needs is a hug or just to be held. And that if she doesn't tell me exactly what it is, that's probably a good default option for...0:43:40 Daniel: That's good.0:43:41 Nich: And the moments when she has been able to directly state that this is... Like, when she ends it on a question that was very implicitly, "I want an answer to this question," whether she verbalized that, you could kinda tell that, "Okay, this is actually a question question and not a thinking out loud question," which has been very hard to discern until we've been more open and talking about what that can look like and mean for us, I've... It's a lot easier for me to answer then because then I know what that expectation is, and it's harder for my mind to then run out of control, 'cause it's like, "Okay, there's a very clear question here that she wants," and there's still a space there as I collect my thoughts after she finishes and I wanna make sure that she is done, and then as I start to collect it, I become more okay with that half-finished idea that I feel like I have.0:44:41 Daniel: What I like hearing here is, is you eliminate the guessing, you don't wanna become as a, Kelsey, as an anxious person, hyper-vigilant to Nich's behavior. And there's a danger there, because if he shuts down, he's going silent. You're becoming hyper-vigilant. It's like, "Okay, something's wrong with Nich, what's going on? I have to dig and I have to dig and I have to dig," you're recognizing, "Okay, I need to treat him like an adult and allow him to go through this but I am gonna vocalize what I need and Nich is gonna respond to that."0:45:13 Daniel: I think this is really important and it's gonna lead into two other questions I have here. And the first one is, what would you say, I guess, both Nich and Kelsey, with anxiety and depression, for those who don't truly understand how difficult it is to live and function in a relationship with these two things, who might say, this is something that you use, as you're alluding to, a way to avoid a conversation, what's the difference there? And then the second one is, and you can answer whatever order you like, is now that you have a kid and you do have deadlines, how do you function with these two struggles, anxiety and depression, in meeting those deadlines and the needs of your child. 'Cause sometimes you can't, you can't put something off for a day or two. So, guide us in that, what do you do?0:46:13 Kelsey: Well, to answer your second question, the first thing that comes to mind actually is that having a baby, actually, it provides... How Nich mentioned that sometimes we'll just switch to a lighter topic if it feels like it's getting too overwhelming, too heavy, because we're both too anxious, it's really easy to just then, "Baby needs attention, so we're not talking about this right now, because... " Or baby's fussy or she wants to eat or I'm still nursing her a few times a day so that actually provides me... "Okay, baby's hungry. We're gonna pause this conversation. I'm gonna go have a chance to go think in baby's room while I'm nursing her by myself."0:46:57 Kelsey: So in some ways it eliminates my need to just keep hashing it out because there's an immediate need of a baby there, and so I can then focus my energy on her, whether that's anxious energy, it's usually anxious energy. I can focus that need on her and take a break. Not that I always recognize it as a break, sometimes it's more like... I wanted to have this conversation and this, this baby just needs to interrupt it. And so in the moment it might feel more stressful because there's another human being that needs me right now, other than myself and my husband but...0:47:40 Kelsey: And when I think about it, and while I'm then taking care of the baby, it's okay. This is probably a needed break from that conversation. We could take a pause. I can take care of the baby for a little while and then maybe bring this up again later when we've had a chance to chill out. And that's an up and down emotional roller coaster, right, because when somebody else needs you, it's like it's fulfilling but at the same time, it's like... But I had something else I wanted to focus on right now. So it's, it's up and down definitely.0:48:18 Daniel: Yeah, and what was the first question again? I'm trying to... For those who don't, haven't experienced this level of anxiety or depression or understand it and may say, life is tough, you've gotta still... Are you using it to... Is this a form of running away and not handling your responsibilities?0:48:39 Nich: I was slightly thinking about that and I wanted clarification on the question. And it's not... You can use an excuse to run away from any responsibility that you find anyway.0:48:49 Daniel: Absolutely.0:48:50 Nich: And so I would say it can definitely appear like that. And when you're in that moment of depression, when that thought comes to mind, or anxiety, all it does is make it worse because now you're like, "Great. Now, I'm also not taking care of my child, I'm not doing my homework." And it just keeps building upon itself more and more, and that makes it so difficult. And that's one of the benefits to marrying Kelsey and having you as a father-in-law is that we've been able to recognize that more and in a healthy way rely upon each other to know that even if we're both feeling super overwhelmed, we've been able to develop a sense of trust with each other where it's, okay, we both need something right now, and we need to figure what that is.0:49:45 Nich: And for... I can definitely see that people that haven't felt that and don't understand that how that could appear from the outside, but I would say just think about all the different excuses that you make in your life, for not doing the dishes or not giving your all at work, you're gonna find excuses in your life that are gonna be doing the same thing and they might be as deeply ingrained in your personality as depression or anxiety can be.0:50:15 Daniel: Oh, that's a great, great point. Everybody has their own struggle with procrastinating in some form. Some may be great, like Kelsey and your mom who are great schedulers and use that as a tool for productivity in their life, but there are other aspects of your life that may be a type of procrastination. And so we're all struggling with our own... I really appreciate this conversation 'cause... And I have shared a lot with my audience, but for those who don't know, I by no means struggle with the anxiety or the depression that either of you do, but I definitely do shut down when I get overwhelmed, to a point that I don't even realize, and this came to light, and why I'm sharing this is 'cause it's a lot of what you're doing early in the marriage.0:51:01 Daniel: When we started working out early in the morning, mornings are not good for me, at all, and so I didn't even realize how away I was in my mind and mom, my wife, your mother, would like to talk, and plan out in our drive to the gym in the morning at 5:00 AM, and it would become quickly overwhelming, and I would shut down more. And that was very difficult for her, and it was difficult for me and so becoming verbal. And one of the things that we did was we took the focus or potential offense off of each other. It's not because of you. What I would often do is... You know what, I am having a really... So I had to have it on the forefront of my mind, today is a really rough day. I don't think I slept well. This has nothing to do with you. I kinda need some space here as we drive. And that would be hard for her, because she... That was her time to talk, and there were mornings where she would say, "This is really hard for me." I thought it was going well, I thought it was going well, I didn't feel bad, but I wasn't talking, I wasn't engaging in the conversation, but she would be able to say that and just articulate it, and I would say, "Oh, I had no idea, thank you," and be able to engage in some dialogue right there and then to be able to meet it.0:52:27 Daniel: But I didn't feel like I was responsible for her experience there, and vice versa. And that was a process that we had to grow through, and I think we've gotten pretty good at it and being able to recognize, I'm struggling, you're struggling, okay, that's all that's going on right now and that's it. But that still, that struggle still affects us emotionally, it's like, "Oh, my goodness, I don't want today to be unpredictable." So we start to learn how to navigate that. I need 10 minutes of rest, I'll go shut down, and then I'll come back out and engage in a way that is supportive for her and I'm hearing you two develop those skills and that's really impressive and it's very hard, very hard, 'cause it has to take... You have to learn how not to get offended or take it personal, but yet it's still emotional, and to be able to communicate that so it's very impressive that you two are navigating that.0:53:26 Kelsey: Thank you.0:53:27 Daniel: And I'm not in your daily life. Yeah, you said because of me, but I have very little involvement in your marriage.0:53:35 Kelsey: No, but your ideas have a lot of involvement in our marriage.0:53:39 Daniel: Thank you.0:53:40 Kelsey: Another thing that I was thinking what you're saying that is sometimes you just need to verbalize something to connect, to check in, whatever it is. Something that we've started doing is because I've realized that when Nich gets really overwhelmed verbalizing is the last thing he wants to do.0:53:57 Daniel: It's hard.0:54:00 Kelsey: A lot of the time now he'll just... It kind of communicates... Well, let me tell you what it is first. He'll flash the I love you, the ASL sign, at me, or make the I love you sign with his hand and then touch my knee or something like that, and that's come to communicate that a lot's going on in my mind right now and I can't continue to talk about it at the moment, but I heard you and I love you and that just like... That simple little thing is just like I'm telling you I understand and that I can't do anything about it at the moment, but that I love you.0:54:36 Daniel: That's brilliant. In the context of sex, that's safe words, right? But that's in our emotional relationship, I think that's huge, and I think Julie and I, my wife and I, have done similar things. I don't know if we're as conscious of that, but there are definitely things that we do to communicate, this is where I'm at, so that's brilliant, I really like that. I hope the audience understands the impact of that, so that's... That's good. And I think where that gets really successful. Well, it is a little bit more conscious in our relationship because one of the keys for that to be successful is that we don't use... For example, in your case, the I love you sign as a way to escape the conversation and never follow up for it, right. Where it becomes successful is when you can use it and trust that this will then be followed up later. It's not a way to permanently set it aside. And I think that's where couples get into trouble, and we don't have to hold each other to a specific time frame.0:55:34 Daniel: Sometimes I will say, "Sweetheart, I need to talk to you. Let's put this off until tomorrow," and then, tomorrow comes along and, boy, it's a really bad day at work, or very emotional, it's like... But, I will communicate that with her and say, "It was really rough. Tell you what, let's try to do this tomorrow," but I'm following up eventually following up. It's not, "I'm putting you off." I know my limitations. So another great idea, I love it.0:56:02 Nich: One of the things I was thinking about right now, was that through all of this, one of the biggest problems that we've encountered is in those anxiety or high depression moments and in arguments in general, you take things very personal from what the person says. And for me, one of my big problems throughout life and why Kelsey and I think I might be actually somewhat autistic, is my ability to express my thoughts has caused a huge amount of misunderstandings in my life, and I didn't have it pointed out until my mission that my tone of voice doesn't typically match what I'm actually trying to get across. And I had no idea, and that was a very weird moment on the mission to have my companion tell me that, and he was just making note of it, he wasn't angry with me, or anything. It was just like pointing that out.0:56:53 Daniel: This isn't making sense, Nich, you said this, but it felt like this.0:56:57 Nich: All he said was, your tone of voice really doesn't match what you're saying. And I had the most, what? And so like that, and my phrasing and wording is very particular from what it's been pointed out to me from people and so when I feel like I've expressed something and because she's feeling very anxious or confused, which makes Kelsey hard to actually communicate with, 'cause she's trying to figure it all out in her way, that what I've said very profound or very direct to the point and it was misunderstood. It feels very personal to me, 'cause it's like, but I spent all this time thinking about it and composing this and you're completely misunderstanding and that means you don't understand me.0:57:51 Kelsey: One of the things that I think he mean with that is, if you can tell, Nich is bass, and this means that when he says something that's very direct, it can often sound cutting or short or he doesn't care, because it's just, "Well, this is how it is." The end.0:58:10 Daniel: It's strong.0:58:12 Kelsey: Yes, it's strong. And while that felt very, it might have felt like he was saying something consoling in his own mind because he took time to think about it and that that was his answer, to me it just felt like, well, that was disappointing and rude. And I'll say that, I'll say so, "What do you mean? That was rude. You didn't even think about what I said." And so, yes, while tone and voice and the word choice can play a lot into if you sound nice or consoling or you understand, something we've also had to learn, is that I don't want Nich to speak differently or sound like all rainbows and butterflies, just because I'm anxious, I want him to be himself, but I need to realize that his tone of voice and the way that he says things, even if it can, if I'm having a hard and overwhelming time, it can sound really cutting or dismissive.0:59:11 Kelsey: What I need to realize is that I need to pay attention to the words and also kind of like fill in what I know about him, fill in that I know that he's not trying to dismiss me or tell me that I'm being dumb, but rather that he wants to help me through it, but he also doesn't want to dwell on things that don't need to be worried about, and that's where the directness is coming from, is that he wants to help me dismiss the things that I am focusing my anxious energy on that I don't need to, and that can sound really cutting in the moment. But then I realize he's actually being caring saying, you simply don't need to worry about that. But how it translates to me is I don't care. And...1:00:03 Daniel: Do you have an example of that, 'cause I don't want the listeners... 'Cause the way that does sound, is it could sound controlling. I don't want you to think about this. You got every right to think about whatever you want. So what's a situation where that has occurred and how that's played out?1:00:24 Nich: A lot of the time with our daughter.1:00:26 Kelsey: Right. So there's been a lot of times when... I mean, I'll get really anxious if I put Evelyn down for a nap, 'cause she's still learning how to self-soothe and get herself snuggled up and asleep. I'll put her down for a nap and she's crying and I don't wanna leave her there crying, but I know that she'll get herself to sleep, because she's learning how to do that, and then I'll come out and I'm like, "She's crying again, I don't know why she won't let me put her down for a nap. She didn't even wanna snuggle. She likes you better than me. You're the favorite parent, and you can put her down for a nap and she doesn't cry... "1:01:00 Kelsey: Your anxiety starts to spiral.1:01:00 Kelsey: Yeah, and then I just think, "She hates me." She's 11 months old. Her memory is just so short term, she'll forget in two seconds that I put her down crying and she'll be happy 'cause she's asleep. But I come out saying, "This happens all the time. She hardly wanted to nurse, she didn't wanna snuggle me, she was just crying. I put it in her crib, but now I feel like I abandoned her." And those are the kind of moments when Nich is just like, one of his favorite phrases for those kind of moments for me is, "It is what it is right now," and those exact words.1:01:31 Daniel: That's not quite... I like that, because it's not dismissive. He's acknowledging, it is what it is right now, but don't let me put words in your mouth, that don't allow that, the anxiety to escalate in a way that's distracting or hurtful in the situation.1:01:48 Kelsey: The first few times that he said that I thought he was simply saying, "Shut up, you're overwhelming me, go away." But instead he was saying, "She'll be fine. You don't need to worry about this." So that's what I mean when I say that he'll say something that sounds really direct and cutting, but what he's really trying to say is, "You can tone down your anxiety, this is going to be fine," and I need to translate that in my brain that while I want him to, you know, maybe there's a part of me that wants him to go buy me chocolates and write me a love letter and make me feel better. Him saying it is what it is right now is like the emotional equivalent of that. He's saying, "You can calm down, it's going to be fine."1:02:34 Daniel: So what I'd like, maybe one final thought is, and maybe you two can share, if there's one thing that you can, the listener can take away from this, what would it be? What would you tell your pre-married selves, what would you inform yourselves? But before you answer that, one thing I think is important to clarify here is some will be thinking who are struggling with spouses who struggle with depression, is that they get this feeling of they are who they are, and I just have to let them be. What I notice in your relationship is, yes, there's a degree of that. The fact is, you do struggle with depression and you struggle with anxiety and you both at times struggle with both, and there's this element of that's who they are, but you're not becoming your depression, you're not using that as an excuse, and you are finding opportunities like what you're just describing there is how to communicate better with each other, so you're incrementally trying to meet each other's needs without denying what you're experiencing. Is that fair to say?1:03:43 Nich: Yes, I'd say so.1:03:45 Daniel: Kelsey?1:03:46 Kelsey: There was a lot of description there and I lost the question.1:03:50 Daniel: You're not using this as an excuse, you're not just saying, I'm an anxious person, so you have to live with me, just who I am. You're recognizing that's what you both are struggling with, but there are opportunities in your lives where you're actually trying to meet the needs of the other person. Is that fair to say?1:04:07 Kelsey: Yeah.1:04:08 Daniel: It's not being used as an excuse. I will never change, and I can't learn how to communicate the way that you value. You both are actually trying to communicate in a way that each other values.1:04:19 Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah.1:04:22 Nich: Makes the marriage easier.1:04:23 Kelsey: I would say that with that being said, a good takeaway that I would tell my pre-married self is one, that I don't need to feel like it's 100% my responsibility to care for my husband's emotions or to fix, I guess that's a better word, my husband's emotions if I feel like they're not happy. And with that, while I'm not responsible... While I'm not the sole responsible person for his emotions, I also, on the flip side, can't make him fully responsible for the way that I'm feeling. So that I need to take responsibility for me, and that will need to balance with helping and taking some responsibility for how he's feeling. But if I try to go 100% both ways, we're just both gonna be overwhelmed.1:05:21 Daniel: I love that summary. Thank you. Nich, what about you?1:05:26 Nich: If I would tell something to my pre-married self, it's that you don't have to be who they want you to be. With that, especially with depression and everything else that I felt with that, is that I needed to be able to accept who I am and what I have, with the depression and how my voice is and my ability to communicate, and that the more that I embrace that and try to learn and grow inside of that, that I will find people that are okay with that and who will be friends for a long time. And I will find someone that I'll get married to, despite all these things that most people are looking and going, "Oh, well, you're gonna need to fix that to actually be accepted in society and be accepted by someone."1:06:24 Daniel: Thank you both. I think this is a great example of what it's like to live the gospel, live a relationship where you both love each other, and it's still messy. I think that's important for people to hear and learn how to navigate it and I hope that those listening will hear your example and find encouragement, even in the messy. And I know sometimes we get this ideal of what a eternal temple marriage relationship looks like, and that's not bad, but to be able to see it and on day-to-day basis, and I think you guys have provided a window into that. And so I appreciate your vulnerability, and sharing that with everyone else. Thank you.1:07:06 Kelsey: Thanks, Dan.1:07:06 Daniel: Thank you.[music]Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group. 

Nach der Schule machte Tobias Köhn eine Ausbildung zum Elektriker gemacht. Als er immer häufiger unter Panikattacken litt, merkte er aber, das irgendetwas nicht stimmte. Der Drang nach Freiheit war größer als die Vorzüge eines sicheren Jobs. Tobias kündigte und machte sich auf, mit einem ausgebauten Geländewagen durch das südliche Afrika zu fahren. In diesem Interview erzählt Tobias offen und authentisch, was passiert, wenn man den konventionellen Weg verlässt. Er stellte sich die Frage: "Wie weit würdest du gehen, um dir einen Traum zu erfüllen?" In seinem Fall war es das südliche Afrika. "Vom Träumer zum Macher" – so lautet der Untertitel von Tobias Köhns Film "Ein Viertel der Welt". Irgendwann wollte der Krefelder nicht mehr in Gedanken Abenteuer erleben, sondern sein eigenes Leben zu einem Abenteuer machen. Der Film kann auf der Videoplattform "Vimeo" ausgeliehen oder gekauft werden. Außerdem ist Tobias im Sommer 2019 auf Kinotour. Die Termine findest du auf seiner Webseite. Mehr Informationen unter: https://gatesieben.de/podcast/tobias-koehn/ Wenn dich das Thema Freiheit und Reisen interessiert, dann empfehle ich dir die folgenden Episoden auf GATE7: Ania und Daniel: "So klappt es mit deinem Traum von der Weltreise" – https://gatesieben.de/podcast/weltreise-tipps/ Nick Martin: "Sechs Jahre weltreisen als 'geilste Lücke im Lebenslauf'" – https://gatesieben.de/podcast/nick-martin-sechs-jahre-weltreisen-als-geilste-luecke-im-lebenslauf/ Timo Eckhardt: "Auf dem Weg zum digitalen Nomaden" – https://gatesieben.de/podcast/digitaler-nomade-timo-eckhardt/   ----------   "Abenteuer Reportagefotografie": Welche Geschichte möchtest du erzählen?   Entdecke den visuellen Storyteller in dir: Tauche mit uns ein in die faszinierende Welt der Reportagefotografie.   Hier geht's zur Webseite: https://www.abenteuer-reportagefotografie.de/   Melde dich für den Newsletter an und bleibe immer auf dem Laufenden.

 This Post is broken out into two separate sections; Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey as a Latter-day Saint and the full transcript of Evelyn’s podcast interview. Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey:As a single Latter-day Saint woman struggling with anxiety and depression, my sexuality was not a priority in my life. After all, I was single, wasn’t I? As an active and devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, my responsibility as I saw it at the time was to avoid and ignore anything related to sex. Whatever my well-meaning youth leaders had intended, the message that I had received from them was that anything related to sex - discussion, acknowledgment, unintended feelings of arousal, etc. - was off-limits. The idea that this avoidance might be contributing to my mental health struggles never crossed my mind. In fact, at one point, when asked whether I had a healthy view of sexuality, my answer was “How should I know?” In my mind, even knowing the answer to a question like this was potentially inappropriate, because it would require thinking about sex.Then came the challenge to make some goals in my life in all areas, including my sexuality. This made me uncomfortable. I have tried to do what is right throughout my life, and this felt like straying a little too close to the fence for me, so I started small. I would just think about my sexuality. That was all. For a few minutes, I would consider that this part of myself that I had isolated, ignored, and disconnected was, in fact, a legitimate part of me. Over time, this few minutes of thought led to study. I read books written by members of the Church and other Christian authors and considered what they had to say. I prayed about what I was reading and my own questions. I became increasingly certain that sexuality and desire are God-given and an important part of being whole and complete. As I came to this understanding, some truly unexpected things began to happen.The first noticeable change was that I began to feel differently about certain TV shows. Many comedies use sex as a primary source of humor. Where these shows had not bothered me previously, I began to feel uncomfortable with the way that they were portraying sexuality. Using this gift from God for a cheap laugh began to affect me more. Studying and thinking and acknowledging my own sexuality made it feel more sacred to me, not less. I changed some of my media habits to reflect my new understanding. This led to a closer relationship with God. I also began to feel better about myself. I felt more comfortable in my own skin. I worried less about what others thought about me, and felt less need to hide behind a mask of whatever I thought others wanted to see. My symptoms of anxiety and depression began to decrease. This was a shock to me, but I realized that accepting my own sexuality and desires allowed me to stop fragmenting myself. I became more whole and more authentic. My relationships did not suffer for letting go of my carefully constructed mask. I became closer to my roommate as we had vulnerable discussions and talked - and sometimes laughed - together about our shared insecurities. Other relationships also improved. I began to serve others more and noticed their needs more easily. I felt more comfortable reaching out to comfort and help others in need.Eventually, I decided to take another step forward in understanding my own sexuality and desires. I decided to explore masturbation. This was not a step that I came to lightly. When it was first suggested during a therapy session, I had a strong negative reaction. I couldn’t possibly do this! It was wrong. I felt anxiety and pressure. I felt torn between a desire to please someone I respected by agreeing to try but also fear that trying this would ruin my relationship with God. As a child, I had stumbled upon the ability to stimulate myself and had done this occasionally for some time before I even understood what it was. The shame I felt when I eventually realized that this was what people meant when they used the term “masturbation” was extreme. I spoke with a bishop about this behavior, and put it behind me as best I knew how, by locking away that part of myself as completely as I possibly could to avoid even entirely unintentional feelings of arousal. Now, the thought that I might choose masturbation on purpose frightened me. I thought about this deeply for some time. Eventually, I made a choice: I would not try masturbation. I shared this in my next session. Once again, the results were unexpected. I didn’t consider this at the time, but this was the first real choice that I had ever made about my own sexuality. I had always attempted to do the right thing, but it was an effort to do what others told me to do. Never before had I exercised my agency around my sexuality. I had never owned a choice before in regards to this part of myself. I felt empowered. I felt strong. My fear and anxiety decreased, but not because of what I had chosen. They decreased simply because I had chosen. I realized then that I had previously allowed myself to be acted upon, rather than claiming my agency and making my choices. I began to pray and consider the possibility of making the choice to try to better understand and appreciate my own body, my sexuality, and my desire through masturbation. After a period of time, and with significant thought and prayer, I decided that this was something that I would do. Not long after this, I met the man that I would marry. My experiences had increased my ability to interact and communicate authentically, and I was able to bring my whole self to this relationship in a way that I had not been able to in past relationships. I was able to communicate more honestly about my needs, with less fear. This is not to say that this was easy, or that I was fully prepared to enjoy the sexual relationship with my husband after marriage. I discovered that what my mind and heart believed, my body did not necessarily understand. Like many women, I had to deal with painful sex and difficulty staying in the present moment during intercourse without shame or fear. Gratefully, my husband is a kind and honest communicator who cares about my enjoyment and is patient with me. As we have talked and shared and supported each other, I have felt increased closeness and enjoyment in sex. I know that if I had not begun the process of understanding and appreciating my sexuality and my own body before we married, this process would have been far more difficult. I fear I would not even have been able to talk about it with my loving husband with honesty and awareness, which would have made our intimate experiences together more challenging and our conversations less effective.I know that my journey is far from complete. I still often feel like I have a long way to go. I also would never presume that someone else should make the same choices I have. Every person needs to make their own decisions thoughtfully and prayerfully. However, I truly believe that my Heavenly Father cares about my relationships and is concerned with my experiences with sex. He doesn't want me to live in fear of my own sexuality, given to me by Him for righteous purposes. He wants me to recognize that this gift is a part of who I am. He wants me to enjoy sex with my husband and use it as an opportunity for us to grow closer together. He wants me to claim the gift of agency and make choices for myself, rather than acting out of fear. I am grateful for the experiences that I have had as I have sought to understand my sexuality. I know that they have helped me to develop my relationships - with myself, with my friends and family, and with God. I know also that they will impact the way that I teach my children about this topic. While I still appreciate the efforts of youth leaders who impacted my life in many ways for good, I want to better prepare my children to understand this powerful gift from their loving Father in Heaven. I hope that by teaching them differently than I was taught, they may be more prepared to fully enjoy and appreciate the blessing of their sexuality. Full Franscript of Evelyn’s Podcast Interview:0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have Evelyn in the studio, who's gonna be talking about her experiences around improving her sexual health through masturbation. A sensitive topic, and I appreciate her coming in and being vulnerable with us today. Evelyn, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?0:00:50 Evelyn: Sure. I am an active member of the church. I enjoy attending every week and with my family. Anything else you wanna know?0:01:06 Daniel: Kids?0:01:07 Evelyn: Kids, I do. I do have a child. I have a daughter.0:01:13 Daniel: How long have you been married?0:01:14 Evelyn: Been married about... A little more than two years.0:01:17 Daniel: Two years. And how old are you?0:01:20 Evelyn: I am 37.0:01:21 Daniel: Thirty-seven. Wow.0:01:23 Evelyn: Well, I did not get married real early.0:01:24 Daniel: No. Well, out here in Silicon Valley, that's a pretty standard age right there.0:01:30 Evelyn: That's true.0:01:31 Daniel: But you married right, which is a great thing.0:01:33 Evelyn: I did.0:01:35 Daniel: So you're coming in here today, and we're gonna be talking about some pretty private and personal things. What's your motivation for doing this? What's your purpose for doing this?0:01:49 Evelyn: I would say my purpose for doing this is that I feel like I've made a lot of progress through the different experiences that I've had. And some of them have been challenging, but I'm in definitely a better place than when I started, and I want to give other people the opportunity to hear about it so that maybe their journey could be a little bit easier.0:02:14 Daniel: That's wonderful. Tell us some of those challenges that you're having.0:02:19 Daniel: Well, I have struggled with anxiety for a lot of my life. I would say that when I was young, it was really challenging for me to kind of manage day-to-day. I had fairly crippling perfectionism and really was very, very worried about how other people perceived me, and that got in my way a lot. When I was in college, I hit a point where I realized that I needed help. I had great parents who helped me see that I needed some support, so I reached out and I got some help. And...0:03:08 Daniel: What kind of help did you get?0:03:10 Evelyn: I started attending therapy, and I also went on medication. So I was able to get better, but I kind of got to a point where I wasn't really making too much progress beyond...0:03:26 Daniel: Did the medication help?0:03:27 Evelyn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.0:03:29 Daniel: And this was in your college years?0:03:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes. The medication definitely helped, and so did the therapy. I was able to talk to a few different therapists, and it was really beneficial. But I guess that by the time I reached adulthood, I had learned how to manage a lot. I had learned a lot of coping skills which were very beneficial. They certainly made a difference in the quality of my life. I was able to calm myself down. I was able to kind of recognize when I might be having an anxiety reaction that was above and beyond the legitimate need based on what was going on. So I developed a lot of those skills, and I've made a lot of progress, but I would still slide back periodically. And I still realized that I hadn't dealt with some of the root issues.0:04:35 Daniel: Now, we're not talking about, "I'm nervous." We're talking about anxiety that was paralyzing.0:04:43 Evelyn: Yes. Yeah. I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and it definitely was making it so that there were a lot of things that I couldn't do. Interacting with people was particularly difficult.0:05:00 Daniel: Let's talk a little bit more about that. Not only interacting with people, you're going into a profession. You're working. You're living on your own. You're high-functioning. But this was getting in the way, not just of interacting with people, but your job too?0:05:17 Evelyn: Well, I wouldn't say that it was getting in the way of my job performance. It was definitely getting in the way of my job enjoyment.0:05:24 Daniel: Ah, yes. And that's an important clarification right there. So how... If you can put it on a scale, it sounds like it was growing and becoming increasingly worse, and you'd been on medication and during your... Maybe your 20s is what we're talking about now. You're out of college, and it's increasingly getting worse. How bad was it? Tell us a little bit more about that.0:05:52 Evelyn: It depended, I would say, on the time. I would have times that I was... Felt pretty in control of how things were going, but then I would have other times when things would slide backward and I would just not want to do anything. And I would... I would say, externally, everything looked fine.0:06:11 Daniel: Yes.0:06:12 Evelyn: From an outsider's perspective...0:06:13 Daniel: You're good with that.0:06:15 Evelyn: Yes, I am. [chuckle]0:06:17 Daniel: As most... As a lot of people who struggle with anxiety are and who are high-functioning, people don't realize how bad they're suffering inside. And that was the case with you.0:06:28 Evelyn: Yeah.0:06:29 Daniel: Yeah.0:06:30 Evelyn: Yeah. But it became... Yeah, it was really very, very difficult on a day-to-day basis to just carry out the things that I needed to do, to make myself do that. It cost me a lot to go through a day and to make sure that no one knew how I was feeling about everything that I had to do, and just the overwhelming... Sometimes, it was... Sometimes it just felt incredibly devastating. I remember explaining it to my mother one time how I would feel about the future and about how things were going. And she said, "Wow, that sounds like the dementors in Harry Potter."0:07:11 Daniel: Wow.0:07:11 Evelyn: They just suck the joy out of everything.0:07:12 Daniel: Yes. What a perfect visual. Absolutely. And I think that's when I first met you was you were at that point. Dementors had sucked everything out of you.0:07:24 Evelyn: Yup.0:07:25 Daniel: You made a particularly interesting request, though, when you came and saw me. So this is much later, so in your mid-30s. So I think that's important. So for about 15 years since college.0:07:40 Evelyn: Yeah.0:07:41 Daniel: Were you on medication that whole time?0:07:44 Evelyn: Not the whole time, but I would say off and on.0:07:47 Daniel: Okay.0:07:47 Evelyn: A reasonable amount of the time.0:07:49 Daniel: And when you were on medication, it seemed like it was manageable?0:07:53 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:07:55 Daniel: And by the time you came and sought help from me, you were... If I remember right, you were not on medication.0:08:04 Evelyn: Yeah, I did try to not go on medication for a while.0:08:07 Daniel: That was a particular request you actually had.0:08:09 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:10 Daniel: You said, "I wanna try to do this without medication."0:08:12 Evelyn: Yes. I ultimately did go back on for some help with sleeping, but...0:08:19 Daniel: But for anxiety?0:08:21 Evelyn: Yeah, for anxiety I think I've made a lot of progress.0:08:23 Daniel: Yes.0:08:24 Evelyn: It still helps, but the biggest reason that I take some now is because it helps with sleep.0:08:30 Daniel: Yes. Well, and you're a new mother too, isn't it so?0:08:33 Evelyn: Well, that's true. Yes.0:08:35 Daniel: A lot of stress is going on. In fact, to that point, with all the stresses that you have, you've been married in the last two years.0:08:42 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:08:42 Daniel: You have a baby in your late 30s.0:08:47 Evelyn: Yep.0:08:47 Daniel: Later 30s. All these life changes. You became accustomed to living alone, or at least independently.0:08:58 Evelyn: Yes. Yes.0:09:00 Daniel: And so you have a lot of stresses in your life in your... I mean, yes, medication for sleeping, which, gosh, I'm on right now. Not to minimize at all what you're experiencing there. But even with all these major life changes, how would you say you're coping?0:09:16 Evelyn: Oh, much better.0:09:18 Daniel: Much better.0:09:18 Evelyn: Much better than I was.0:09:20 Daniel: So you eventually, in your mid-30s, you sought out help again. Had you see seen a therapist since college?0:09:28 Evelyn: Yes.0:09:29 Daniel: Yes, you have?0:09:30 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.0:09:30 Daniel: And I'm assuming it was somewhat helpful because you're coming again.0:09:33 Evelyn: Yeah. Absolutely.0:09:35 Daniel: And so you're in a new area, you're seeking some support here. Tell us about that. What was that experience like? You're having to reach out. Give me some emotions.0:09:45 Evelyn: Sure. I would say that when I've gone to see a therapist, it has helped. And so I would... I decided that when I reached a point in a new area, I needed to find someone to help me out because with the moving to a new place, it kind of pushed me backward to the point where I really wasn't coping well at all. So I decided that I needed to find somebody, and luckily, I'd met you.0:10:12 Daniel: Okay.0:10:12 Evelyn: So I asked you, and we started talking, and that was really helpful.0:10:21 Daniel: Well, it was interesting at the beginning. We were doing... So one of the first things we did was we tried to explore what's working. And we repeat those and we try to find ways to enhance that or build on the skills that you already knew how to do and do very well. In fact, I do recall a lot that you were, "Yep, familiar with this. I know how to do this." But what we were experiencing, yes, some of the anxiety was being manageable, but it wasn't getting to a point where you're okay. And correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, it wasn't... We weren't making the progress that I think you were hoping for.0:11:02 Evelyn: Well, I think I kind of got to the point where I thought this is as good as it's gonna get.0:11:08 Daniel: Yes, yes.0:11:10 Evelyn: And I guess this is life. And that's okay. I mean, it's not too bad. I'll just have to do my best and take a day at a time.0:11:16 Daniel: Well, hold on a second. When you say, "It's not too bad," I think we need to put that in context. You've lived a life of anxiety, so you're not too bad. And yeah, don't let me misspeak. I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But I think... To some degree, I think you're minimizing it. You were struggling.0:11:35 Evelyn: Well, yes. I was struggling, but I guess I figured that we reached the point where I had gotten before, which was manageable.0:11:45 Daniel: Manageable. Okay.0:11:47 Evelyn: And figured that this was... What I was going to do was I was going to kind of do a cycle where I could manage it, and then maybe changes in life or something would happen that would increase the stress, and then I would go downhill, and then I would get some help, and then I would bring it back to manageable. And that would kind of be life. But that's as good as I could hope for, so I should make the best of it.0:12:13 Daniel: So what happened from there? Why didn't we just quit, say we succeeded and moved on?0:12:20 Evelyn: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I think that you brought up some interesting points that I hadn't considered before, and at first I thought that they didn't have anything to do with me.0:12:34 Daniel: Tell us about those points. What points were we bringing up?0:12:37 Evelyn: Well, I remember you bringing up, at one point, just... Well, how do you feel about your sexual health? And I thought, "How should I know?" I think that's what I said. "How should I know?" I was single and being an active temple-attending member of the church. That meant that I didn't really have a sexual life. So it seemed like something that was disconnected.0:13:11 Daniel: It's interesting even now, when you recall this, and you're a lot more informed now, you went immediately to the sexual experiences. I'm not married.0:13:22 Evelyn: Right.0:13:23 Daniel: And so was it even on the forefront of your mind, sexual health, 'cause that was the question that was what was being explored, was much more than just physical intimacy with somebody else. And so even now when you're talking about it goes, you're recalling, right?0:13:40 Evelyn: Oh, yeah. I'm remembering that I didn't really see any other sides to the issue.0:13:46 Daniel: So what was that experience like, coming from your therapist, even a male therapist, what was your experience hearing it come out as even something to be suggested or thought about. And as again, as a male therapist, any thoughts or feelings around all that?0:14:03 Evelyn: I would say that initially I rejected it, and put it aside as something that didn't really apply to me, but it did plant some seeds of thought that I returned to on my own.0:14:21 Daniel: What prompted you to return to it? So that seed was planted.0:14:27 Evelyn: Well, I think one thing that prompted me to return to it was that I think in a session, I actually brought up the idea that I think that this is as good as it's gonna get. This is kind of what I live with, this is... This is how it's going to go, this is how my life's gonna go. And you said I don't buy that. And I thought, well, maybe you're wrong. [laughter]0:14:56 Daniel: You always told me you like forwardness, directness. So, yes, I thought there was much more potential there I didn't think we had to suffer with just manageable. So where did that take your thoughts?0:15:16 Evelyn: Well, I went home and I thought about it and I decided I wanted to give it a try. I guess if you always do what you've always done then you're gonna always get what you've always gotten. So...0:15:30 Daniel: Give what a try?0:15:33 Evelyn: Exploring other ideas, sexual health was one of them. But you did kind of bring up this idea of wholeness.0:15:41 Daniel: Yes.0:15:43 Evelyn: And that there's just so many sides of me as a person and to make some goals in all these different areas.0:15:51 Daniel: Yep, I think so, good memory on that. That's definitely what we do is try to approach it from a wholeness. All too often we get focused on, "Okay, I have anxiety. So just give me the skills and techniques to manage it."0:16:07 Evelyn: Exactly.0:16:08 Daniel: But if there's a possibility to... I'm not gonna say eliminate, I don't think we eliminate anxiety. Everybody experiences anxiety every day at some sort of level, but get to a point where you can actually be proactive about it, or thrive or get it to a point where the management is much, much less, and so we have to step outside of just the managing anxiety aspect, we have to focus on the mental, the spiritual, the physical side of this. And so I think I, well, I'm remembering this because it's a standard procedure I do, I think I even recommended, let's get your blood work done, let's get you... Make sure everything's fine physically, biologically, but this has been around for a long time, and so, this isn't a new... It wasn't like you're coming into a new biological stage of life, although that could have been possible, but we wanted to rule those things out. And so, one thing that you've never explored was that sexual aspect, is my sexual health good and can this be part of the problem?0:17:15 Evelyn: That one was brand new, and some of the other ones were not brand new. Thinking about them altogether was a little bit new, but I'd certainly worked on myself spiritually, I'd worked on myself mentally, I had focused on exercise, and eating right and I mean, all of those things were things that I had done before. Looking at it as a holistic perspective was a little bit different, but they weren't different ideas. It was the sexual health piece that was the different piece, and it felt like it didn't fit. But now when I look back, it feels like... It feels odd to assume that something that's so much an important part of myself would not be a puzzle piece whereas everything else would be, but it was the only piece of it that I had never explored before.0:18:06 Daniel: Looking back now, what do you think was making it feel like it didn't fit?0:18:12 Evelyn: I would say that I had worked pretty hard to make it not a part of myself.0:18:21 Daniel: Yes.0:18:22 Evelyn: And that was in an effort to be as good as possible.0:18:33 Daniel: Tell us more about that, what does that mean? So first of all, the fact that you're saying you worked as hard as you could for it not be a part of... I feel like there's some insinuation going on there. Was this something that you may have or tempted to be struggling with or tempted...0:18:49 Evelyn: I would say that I... Well, to go back when I was young, I discovered that I could stimulate myself.0:19:00 Daniel: How young are we talking about?0:19:00 Evelyn: Oh, maybe between 10 and 12.0:19:02 Daniel: Okay. Entering your teen years, yep, yep.0:19:05 Evelyn: So pretty young, accidentally... And explored it a little bit and...0:19:13 Daniel: Talking about masturbation?0:19:14 Evelyn: Yes. Didn't really have any idea of what I was doing, honestly. I went to youth meetings and things where they would tell you that you should not masturbate. And I didn't have any idea that these things were connected at all.0:19:37 Daniel: Oh, so in those youth meetings, you weren't realizing that's what was happening?0:19:40 Evelyn: Correct. I had no idea what masturbation really was.0:19:43 Daniel: You were just hearing this terminology and you were like, "Oh, okay, I'm not gonna do this."0:19:46 Evelyn: Yeah, absolutely not. It was clearly a bad thing, I was not gonna do it.0:19:50 Daniel: So at what point did you realize what you were doing between 10 and 12 was actually what they were saying don't do?0:19:57 Evelyn: Well, I did it occasionally.0:20:01 Daniel: In your teen years?0:20:02 Evelyn: In my teen years. It wasn't actually until I picked up a teen magazine that was sitting on a table at the library sometime around the age of maybe 14-15, something like that, that the magazine actually gave me a clear enough definition of masturbation that I was able to make the connection.0:20:22 Daniel: Interesting. So, what were you experiencing when you had that connection?0:20:26 Evelyn: I was devastated, I was completely devastated. And...0:20:31 Daniel: About how old were you at this time?0:20:34 Evelyn: I would say maybe 15.0:20:37 Speaker 1: 15. Pretty young.0:20:39 Evelyn: So I just... I felt incredibly ashamed and that I had managed to do something so terrible without even realizing that I was doing it.0:20:50 Daniel: So how did you respond to that?0:20:55 Evelyn: I think that's when I started to try to avoid any...0:21:02 Daniel: It became an active suppressing.0:21:06 Evelyn: Yes, yeah, that was when I kind of began the process of trying to avoid any accidental, 'cause I did my best to avoid any masturbation, but I also tried to avoid any reading something that might accidentally make my mind go that direction. I mean, I was really working hard.0:21:30 Daniel: Totally shut it off?0:21:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And in all intents and purposes, that's really what the ideal was communicated in these youth meetings, don't stim... I mean, for the strength of youth, right?0:21:40 Evelyn: Yes.0:21:40 Daniel: And so you've spent from 15 on when you discovered, made the connection with this magazine, and your behavior and these youth meetings. Well, was there any kind of formal repentance or did you discuss this with leadership?0:21:57 Evelyn: Not at that point, but I did about when I was a freshman in college. So about the age of 17.0:22:04 Daniel: Is that because you were struggling with it or...0:22:06 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say I hadn't been able to 100% cut it off, so I didn't...0:22:12 Daniel: But this wasn't like a daily thing for you, it was like...0:22:15 Evelyn: No.0:22:16 Daniel: Once in a blue moon kind of.0:22:16 Evelyn: It was occasional. Yeah. It was occasional.0:22:18 Daniel: Wanting to clear the air with the bishop.0:22:21 Evelyn: Or, and sometimes it wasn't even physical stimulation, maybe it was just mental. My thoughts might go a different direction, but I would find myself feeling stimulated so it wasn't...0:22:30 Daniel: So when you say you worked hard.0:22:32 Evelyn: I did.0:22:32 Daniel: Not only your sexual arousal but your thoughts, your feelings, all around it.0:22:37 Evelyn: Well I... Yeah, I felt that sometimes I would have thoughts that would lead me toward arousal, and I would feel some physical response, thoughts that I was having or something that I might read or anything like that. And so I...0:22:54 Daniel: So you're a completely different person today because I remember when you first would even start to... I don't even think you would say the word masturbation.0:23:03 Evelyn: No, I didn't say the word masturbation for a long time.0:23:06 Daniel: Even I think maybe eventually you did with me. I don't remember exactly the timeline, but even your mind going there, there was a clear anxiety being provoked.0:23:17 Evelyn: Oh, very much so, yes.0:23:19 Daniel: And did you notice that at the time or was that even something that you were physically aware that was happening? You literally really physically changed.0:23:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I think I'm aware of it. Yeah.0:23:31 Daniel: Prior to 15, I realize we're going back 15, 20 years. Do you feel like before you made this discovery, that you were masturbating, that your anxiety was as severe?0:23:48 Evelyn: It was not. However, I couldn't necessarily say whether that was because of this discovery.0:23:55 Daniel: Absolutely, and I wanna be careful with that...0:23:57 Evelyn: 'Cause I think it...0:24:00 Daniel: Again, 15-20 years ago, we don't know.0:24:00 Evelyn: Right. I think it grew for who knows how many different factors.0:24:05 Daniel: As you're entering puberty too, that's... Or you're well into puberty. Yeah. So all these feelings are coming up which could add to... So yeah, clear, I'm not making any... I can't go there and say that was the cause of it. But now you're in your 20s, you're in your 30s, you've spent 15-20 years going on and off medication, managing. Now we start to explore this. And one thing I really appreciated about you is usually I have a... My clients fall into one of maybe three different categories: One, when we explore... I have seven principles that I explore and that includes mental health, spiritual health, physical health, sexual health, so forth. And usually when we get to the sexual health part, especially with single adults, I get one of maybe three different reactions, one is, oh, no, they never even... Even just mentioning, how is your sexual health? It's very rare, but sometimes I get them... They'll never even come back.0:25:07 Daniel: So I'll get some people who are like, okay, whatever it takes, and then we get people that I think are more like you. I need to think about this. And I really, really value that, because that's part of therapy is getting you to be that individual and you have no problem with differentiating from other people, and so that didn't surprise me, but the thought process, both spiritual and mental, that you put into it was impressive, and I admired, I fully admired how you approach this. You didn't just say, "Whatever you say, Dan. Let's figure this out," and for you as somebody who wanted to get rid of your anxiety, you didn't just jump on and say... So tell us... I'll stop talking there, but you tell us what that process was like from your end. That's what I observed.0:26:00 Evelyn: Okay, sure. Well, after I kind of went through college, when I didn't see a bishop and talked through everything and then no more, I'd really cut off that part of myself as much as possible. No, sexuality is not really a part of who I am. I need to focus on the spiritual, I need to focus on the mental, I can focus on the physical. Those are all okay, but this other part is something that I'm just saving for until after I'm married. Then we came to the point where you brought it up and asked me to make a goal and I started very small.0:26:45 Daniel: Yes.0:26:46 Evelyn: I said I will think about it. I will think about sex for a few minutes. I feel comfortable going that far, but thinking about it started me wondering if there might be something that was missing in my life, and I still didn't connect it to anxiety, not really, but I thought as long as I was working on everything else, maybe I would continue to work in this area as well, and...0:27:22 Daniel: What started to happen? So we're talking about, and I put a timeline in just to give an appreciation, it's not that it was fast or slow or anything like that, but we're talking about months. You were taking...0:27:38 Evelyn: It started to happen, yeah.0:27:40 Daniel: Yeah, so what was the process? You started...0:27:42 Evelyn: Okay.0:27:42 Daniel: So let's explain the thinking about sex a little bit more there. The goal there, do you recall what it was? I'm not, I don't mean to put you on the spot.0:27:52 Evelyn: Do I recall what it was? I remember that there was a goal in every area, and that the one that I felt like I could do was I would think about this issue.0:28:00 Daniel: Being aware of your own sexuality, what are your own desires and thoughts, getting... So the goal was to get in tune, in connection with yourself, your sexual identity, what does that look like? And what does that feel like? And so you started to explore that a little bit more.0:28:19 Evelyn: Yeah, and it was not fast at, it was not a fast process for me, but what I started to notice was that beginning to recognize this piece of myself changed. The first thing I think I noticed it changing was my interactions with other people. I started to feel more open and able to communicate with people. I had a roommate, we'd lived together for some time and we got along reasonably well, but we were just roommates. I mean, kind of ships passing in the night, and one day I started talking with her and our relationship began to grow and to change. And...0:29:13 Daniel: You talking, you mean just casual conversations.0:29:16 Evelyn: At first, yeah, but then eventually, we started talking about deeper things, and discovering that we had more in common than we thought.0:29:26 Daniel: I think it's important, I think you, we alluded to it with the anxiety but part of this, I think the audience should understand is how much of an introvert you are.0:29:35 Evelyn: Oh, very.0:29:36 Daniel: And so just talking with your roommate, you liked your roommate, this had nothing to do with personalities or anything, just you're on probably the higher end of being an introvert than most introverts. And so just having this conversation, how do you feel that was connected to your exploring your sexuality?0:29:55 Evelyn: Well, at the time, I didn't understand it at all, it didn't make sense to me, it was just an observation. So if we're kind of going on the journey, at the time I was noticing that this was happening more and more, but I wasn't clear how it connected.0:30:18 Daniel: So at this time, you're not masturbating, you're...0:30:20 Evelyn: No, just thinking.0:30:20 Daniel: Just explain... What is my sexual identity. Let's just call it that, and doing that, opening that up was starting to allow you to open up to other people.0:30:37 Evelyn: If I'm going to reflect from a position of having travelled a long way from where I was.0:30:44 Daniel: Yes.0:30:45 Evelyn: I think it has something to do with that wholeness piece. There was a part of myself that I was hiding and I was hiding it even from myself. That was my goal, was to hide it even from myself, and because I was hiding it, I felt vulnerable so much of the time, I felt so nervous and yes, I am an introvert and that hasn't changed.0:31:13 Daniel: No.0:31:14 Evelyn: I will continue to be one. But I was so afraid of being found out almost that I had this piece of myself, that was hidden and I...0:31:26 Daniel: Your sexual self.0:31:27 Evelyn: Right. But it's not like I could have pinpointed that that was why I was nervous in any way, but I think that the fact that I was fragmenting myself a little bit, and keeping...0:31:40 Daniel: That's a great way to say it, yeah.0:31:42 Evelyn: Keeping a part of myself away even from me, increased my anxiety and increased the difficulty that I had interacting with people, I was always so nervous, I was very hypersensitive about the reactions that other people were giving me. And anything that seemed negative I took on myself very, very deeply, and...0:32:08 Daniel: We're talking like at work, your social life, at church events, every interaction, even talking with your roommate, you're...0:32:17 Evelyn: Yeah, I was always looking for any negative signs, anything that was wrong, and trying to fit myself into something that would never, ever receive a negative, negative feedback of any kind from anybody, which is so hard to do that pretty much it involved trying to avoid interactions.0:32:37 Daniel: Absolutely. So tell us more. You're starting to explore your sexual identity. Now that you're looking back, you didn't know at the time how or why that would have a positive impact on even your interaction and in minimizing this.0:32:53 Evelyn: I found it confusing, honestly.0:32:54 Daniel: So what did you do with that confusion?0:32:56 Evelyn: Well, I felt like I don't know why this is working, but it seems to be.0:33:05 Daniel: So you were seeing results.0:33:06 Evelyn: Yes, I was seeing results.0:33:07 Daniel: Right.0:33:07 Evelyn: I was seeing positive interactions. I was finding myself... I mean, I bring up the roommate, but there were other indications too. I mean, at work, I found myself willing to step forward a little bit more and disagree with people at times and tell them things that I thought as opposed to what I thought they were looking for.0:33:28 Daniel: This was an impressive time, because your anxiety for the first time that we're seeing wasn't just managed and reduced, your confidence was increasing.0:33:36 Evelyn: Right. Yeah. I felt very different. I have a sister-in-law that I've come to have quite a good relationship with at this point, but I will say that the first, quite a lot of years of my brother's marriage to her, I was terrified of her, because she has a tendency to give negative feedback unintentionally.0:33:58 Daniel: She was feeding the cycle.0:34:00 Evelyn: Yeah. So, I mean, I just thought she hated me. Every time I was in the room, I would just feel... My heart would be pounding and my stomach would be tight and I would be so nervous, because I felt like there was no way that I could get the right feedback from her, and I found myself... She came in one day and said something, and I could have easily taken it the wrong way, and I thought, "I don't think she means anything by that."0:34:25 Daniel: Interesting.0:34:27 Evelyn: And just kind of let it go, and opened the door to actually having a positive relationship with her, because I was no longer living in this place where I was always, always worried about what other people thought of me.0:34:46 Daniel: So why didn't you end it there? You got success you haven't had before. What made you go to the next step?0:34:55 Evelyn: Well, I would say that the first thing that made me go the next step was that you suggested that I might wanna consider masturbation. And I thought that was a terrible idea.[laughter]0:35:08 Daniel: What was going through... In this experience, what was happening?0:35:13 Evelyn: Well, you mentioned it and I...0:35:17 Daniel: Now, let's be clear, I wanna... For the audience to understand it. This wasn't, "Go home and do this."0:35:23 Evelyn: No.0:35:24 Daniel: So, what was the invitation, do you recall?0:35:27 Evelyn: I think you said something like, "Have you ever considered or tried masturbation? Has that ever been a part of your exploration?" I don't remember your words exactly, but it was somewhere along those lines.0:35:44 Daniel: Yup. And I think that was pretty close, 'cause at that point where I started to see more anxiety come up from what we know now, was from your teenage years and it's like, "Woah," so that seed was planted, what happened from there?0:36:00 Evelyn: Well, I didn't wanna dismiss it out of hand, because I was interacting with someone that I had respect for, and that I had seen positive success from what we'd been working on so far. At the same time, I was pretty terrified that it might destroy my relationship with my Heavenly Father, because that always has been and remains one of the most important relationships in my life.0:36:34 Daniel: And still is.0:36:35 Evelyn: Yeah, and still is. And I wanted to make sure that I didn't ever engage in anything that would impact that negatively. So, I was kind of torn between this fear of harming that relationship, and considering the progress that I've made.0:37:03 Daniel: Yes.0:37:03 Evelyn: And that trusting you in the past had led to some positive things.0:37:09 Daniel: You were trusting yourself.0:37:12 Evelyn: And that's true, I was. But it was your idea that I should explore sexual health in some way.0:37:20 Daniel: That's correct.[chuckle]0:37:23 Evelyn: So, I did have that on my mind too. So trying to balance those things, I went back and forth a lot. And...0:37:35 Daniel: What does back and forth mean? What were you doing...0:37:38 Evelyn: Back and forth as in, "Maybe I should try this, wonder what would happen, I wonder how that would impact me? Nope, never gonna do it. Nope, that would be a terrible thing."0:37:48 Daniel: Talk about your relationship with the Lord in this process, how did you include or not include Him?0:37:58 Evelyn: I definitely prayed, and my prayer was something along the lines of help me not do something that I will regret, and help me let... Help let me know if I'm going to do something that would be detrimental to our relationship. So there were a lot of prayers like that. I would say, I didn't feel a lot one way or the other at that point, as far as an answer to that prayer.0:38:26 Daniel: Was that confusing to you?0:38:29 Evelyn: Not terribly. I think that I've gotten some clear answers in my life and a lot of times that I've been encouraged to figure things out myself.0:38:40 Daniel: So is that what you did?0:38:45 Evelyn: Yeah, at least at that moment, and what I did...0:38:47 Daniel: So, what... Yup.0:38:49 Evelyn: Was I decided I was not going to masturbate, and I came back and I told you that. And I felt wonderful.0:39:02 Daniel: Yes, you did, you were glowing.0:39:06 Evelyn: And... Yeah.0:39:07 Daniel: I remember that, and I praised you for that. What was the focus of my praise? Do you recall?0:39:15 Evelyn: I don't recall.0:39:16 Daniel: You made the decision.0:39:18 Evelyn: Well, that's... I mean, I think that that for me was the thing that I came to. Yeah, I mean, it was the first decision I had ever really made, sexually, in my life.0:39:30 Daniel: Yes. That's exactly right. And that was one of the indicators to me, 'cause as you're just talking about a lot of your life, your lot of... What was feeding your anxiety was what... The impressions of what other people were having on you or at least your interpretation of their responses to you.0:39:48 Evelyn: Yes.0:39:50 Daniel: And...0:39:51 Evelyn: A lot of it was interpretation.0:39:53 Daniel: And what you were just saying also about me, you respected me, both as a... And that's something I take... I don't take lightly, as a therapist, and... Especially within our faith, how do we guide individuals to healthy living while also maintaining their level of faith, their love of God, and supporting them in those areas of their life? And you didn't just do this because I recommended it. You came back with a decision, you prayed about it, you pondered about it, you researched about it, and you came in and you were glowing. Now, this was your choice, and that was amazing.0:40:41 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, the making of the choice was a claiming of my agency in regards to sexuality that I had never made before. Everything I'd done prior to that point was an effort to please somebody else, really.0:41:02 Daniel: Even suppressing your sexual health?0:41:04 Evelyn: Yes, yes.0:41:07 Daniel: That is huge. And I can't... I mean, we're exploring this in the environment of the therapeutic office, but I had seen this, this wasn't a new occurrence, I had seen this over and over, where people had abandoned their agency around their sexual health and the same or similar things occurred. So this was not new to me, but to see it come out of you was just this light bulb moment. So, what did we do from there? What's... We were done with therapy, right? You were perfect, you're healthy.0:41:43 Evelyn: Yeah, isn't that great?[chuckle]0:41:45 Daniel: And end of story, right?[chuckle]0:41:47 Evelyn: Of course. [chuckle] Well, I mean, what you did at that point was say, "Okay, that's your decision. Go with that."0:41:57 Daniel: Yes.0:42:00 Evelyn: But I kind of continued to think about it, and I think that I felt so freed by the fact that I owned this part of myself, that I...0:42:16 Daniel: Was it scary owning it?0:42:20 Evelyn: No, actually.0:42:23 Daniel: That's interesting. The audience can't see her, she's glowing right now [chuckle] when she responds to that. [chuckle] Tell us more about that. Why was that not scary? This thing was scary all your life.0:42:37 Evelyn: It was scary on my life and I thought it would be scary, you know? I mean, I thought it would be terrifying, because it had worried me so much, and had been... I mean, I would have such a physical response even to the word masturbation, if anyone else ever said it, I would just feel... I would kind of start to sweat and I'd feel my stomach tighten up and I'd feel just... All my muscles kind of get tight, which was why I couldn't say it. I would dance around the term as much as possible. It was so frightening to me and yet when I made that decision, I was very nervous to tell you. I'll tell you that. I mean, when I came in...0:43:27 Daniel: I noticed and I...0:43:28 Evelyn: Yeah.[chuckle]0:43:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Hopefully I came across very respectful?0:43:32 Evelyn: You did, you did. But I mean, that part was nervous...0:43:34 Daniel: Of course.0:43:36 Evelyn: But nerve-racking, but when I made the decision and then when I moved on to owning it, it lost its fear. I mean, I lost so much fear around that, and I gained so much confidence to make decisions in other areas of my life too, I think.0:43:58 Daniel: How much of that was or was any of it, the fact that you're working with a male therapist or was it just the nature of the topic? Did me being a male therapist enhance that nervousness?0:44:12 Evelyn: Well, probably. Yeah, it probably did.0:44:15 Daniel: How did you navigate that or how did you resolve that? Or was it a factor that you felt like you had to address?0:44:24 Evelyn: I didn't really resolve or address. I think it probably did increase my anxiety a bit around it, made it more nerve-racking than it would have been with a woman, but I didn't really... I mean, it wasn't so overwhelming that I really had resolve it, I think.0:44:46 Daniel: The ability to speak it, to vocalize it was freeing.0:44:50 Evelyn: Yes, it really was.0:44:54 Daniel: So you made your decision, you are... You have no need to masturbate, you owned it, your health was improved and we were done with therapy.0:45:05 Evelyn: No, no, we weren't.[laughter]0:45:07 Daniel: So take it to the next step, what's happening?0:45:13 Evelyn: So the next step was continuing. I continued to work on some of those goals, I was thinking, I was reading, I was studying, I was considering and pondering and praying, and all of those kinds of things, and then I really felt like, actually, I do wanna understand my body, I wanna understand my desire, I want to better understand this whole piece of myself and I made the decision that I did want to try masturbation.0:45:48 Daniel: I want the audience to understand how thorough you are, 'cause if somebody doesn't know you and hearing what you just said, you continued to think about it. They don't understand how much of a... Exaggeration, that is.0:46:07 Evelyn: Think about it for me.0:46:09 Daniel: You read every book there was.0:46:11 Evelyn: I did, yeah.0:46:12 Daniel: You scoured the internet, you... Both religious materials, sexual health, you picked up books like And They Were Not Ashamed and you dove right in.0:46:24 Evelyn: Read about half a dozen different books cover to cover.0:46:27 Daniel: You're taking the doctrine covenants to heart, read and study and ponder. So I think it's important for the audience, because they don't know you. And so when I hear that you're pondering this, I know that you are diving and this is beyond just thinking.0:46:42 Evelyn: I am a researcher.0:46:44 Daniel: Yes, you are.0:46:45 Evelyn: When I got a cat about 15 years ago or so, I spent a good three days researching all the different names that I might actually name the cat before coming to a decision. If anyone wants to know what product that they should buy that I've already bought, they just ask me, because I have done all the research, I have read 15 different articles, about the 10 best and then looked at what they all had in common and then compared the pros and cons. I am an extremely careful person.0:47:19 Daniel: So you went into this well aware of what the church leadership, what the culture is, what you've read, but you're feeling that this... I'm gonna put the word positive desire, or desire to explore this, and when I say desire, it's not just arousal desire. Go ahead, tell us more about that.0:47:45 Evelyn: I would say it wasn't arousal desire at that point, it was a desire for increased understanding. That's what I was looking for was a fuller understanding of myself, and I prayed more and again, there was a lot of I'm feeling good about this decision, and if it's not right, please help me to know that. I really, I really didn't take it lightly.0:48:20 Daniel: Yeah, so what was your answer, what did you end up doing?0:48:29 Evelyn: I felt good about it, and so I decided that I would try masturbation and see what happened, and so I did and I felt that understanding, what I was looking for, I felt more in tune with myself, and it wasn't even primarily arousal, it was more that this was a better knowledge of who I am as a person. This is what my body can do, this is the gifts that I've been given, this is... This whole body is a gift and I would like to understand it better. And now I do. So that was, that was more what it was about for me, I think, than it was arousal and orgasm, it was who am I? And I did feel like I developed my relationship with myself.0:49:39 Daniel: What... I realize you're not even thinking about this, but I know the audience is listening and wondering maybe pornography was not involved.0:49:50 Evelyn: No.0:49:51 Daniel: This is a self-understanding. This was so huge. You connected with yourself, with the Spirit. I don't wanna misuse any terminology here, but you seem to increase in your wellness.0:50:13 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that... I wouldn't go so far as to say that masturbation was in and of itself a spiritual experience for me. However, what I would say is that as I became more aware of myself that led to things in my life that led to increased spirituality. For example, the appreciation of my body and of the gift that I have received through my body, what I found myself doing was becoming offended by TV shows that made light of sexuality, that had previously not had that impact on me. Previously, I could watch these shows, they really kind of just... Some of these jokes just washed over me. It was just the way that jokes are, and yet suddenly they were bothering me more because they were making light of this thing that was a gift, and so I began to change my media habits and that kind of thing I do think led to overall increased spirituality for me.0:51:28 Daniel: You're being able to own your own sexuality, you start to have more confidence around people interacting and socializing more, now understanding your physical self, your sexual self physically, you're starting to have a more profound appreciation for how sex is represented in media, that is profound, that is a response that you... I don't think everybody has that response. And I don't wanna set this up as though you go out and masturbate, and you're gonna reject all forms of unhealthy sex. But this is key. This is, I think, part of your personality and was part of your healing and growing into your whole self, and that was a part of your personality you don't want to be exposed to that, you want to appreciate what God has given you. And the media was a distraction to that. Am I understanding that right?0:52:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that, yeah, that's pretty solid. I think it was, for me personally, in my experience, it was before the different little jokes and things like that. They didn't mean anything to me because it wasn't even...0:52:51 Daniel: On your radar.0:52:53 Evelyn: A part of me. But now suddenly it was a part of me, it was impacting me and I felt like I needed to make those changes, so certainly not something I would expect of everybody, but in my personal journey, that's how it went.0:53:08 Daniel: So, you're emotionally understanding your sexual health, you're physically understanding it, now we're good. Your life is great, is that true?0:53:18 Evelyn: Well, my life is different.0:53:20 Daniel: It is different. I think there was some more progress going on there and some new skills that you were learning.0:53:29 Evelyn: Well, I'll insert another person at this point, which is that this is about the point that I met my husband, and I think that this process kind of prepared me for meeting him, because I was able to talk to him. We were able to discuss things. When we started, I was more comfortable, I was less concerned about what he was thinking about me than I had been in previous relationships where, who knows if they might have worked out or not otherwise, but one reason they definitely weren't going to work out was because I wasn't myself in them, I was too concerned about the way I was being perceived, so I'd reached the point where I was not feeling that in that same way, it was more like, "This is who I am. And let's see if we happen to be compatible and if we're not, it's not a judgement on me, you can go find somebody else."0:54:35 Daniel: You were much more relaxed about this relationship.0:54:37 Evelyn: So more relaxed, yes, than I had been in previous relationships.0:54:42 Daniel: It's interesting 'cause I can't recall if we've ever had this conversation, because I was on the outside looking at as you're sharing your meeting your now husband, and I was wondering the same things, if this, if your ability to understand yourself was helping. It seems like it would be logical, but not necessarily, it doesn't always happen this way, but that was transferring well into your relationship with him.0:55:07 Evelyn: It was... Yeah, I think the biggest one really was that I liked myself. Not every single tiny little bit of myself.0:55:18 Daniel: But you valued...0:55:20 Evelyn: But in general. I thought I was...0:55:22 Daniel: You were no more rejecting parts of yourself.0:55:24 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.0:55:25 Daniel: And the things that you were not liking, because this isn't about liking every single thing about you. I think that's a beautiful thing if you can do that. Reality is, we're human and we're imperfect and there's gonna be things about ourselves that we don't always love. And you were able to acknowledge those parts without shaming it, without suppressing it, including... I'm talking other things besides just the sexual health part. And so that was making you a more whole person able to interact with your now husband better.0:55:58 Daniel: Definitely. So we got to know each other and we went from levels of just getting to know each other to having more deep conversations. I felt like I was able to be more vulnerable, and he was too. And then we were eventually able to talk about some of these issues, and that also brought us closer and helped me.0:56:26 Daniel: You mean before you married? Are you talking about your issues around anxiety and using masturbation as a coping mechanism, or understanding...0:56:37 Evelyn: Not really a coping mechanism, but that I had had anxiety, that I'd tried different things, we talked about that. We did talk about sexuality before marriage.0:56:47 Daniel: Which is something you would never done before.0:56:49 Evelyn: No, I really wouldn't have, I don't think I would have been able to, but I had the vocabulary, and this wasn't like early in our relationship.0:56:58 Daniel: No, no, no, you guys were... This was clearly at a point that you guys were committed.0:57:03 Evelyn: Yes. Before we discussed, anything that deep, but...0:57:08 Daniel: So at this point, let's backtrack just a little bit here. With the use of masturbation, was this a one or two time occurrence, or was this something that you now incorporated into a healthy routine or part of your life? What was it for you?0:57:25 Evelyn: I'm gonna say somewhere in between those two. It wasn't something that was a routine. Every so often I would masturbate but I wasn't afraid of that either. And so at times I would choose to do that.0:57:45 Daniel: You recognized the benefits and you were able to use it as... Is that fair to say?0:57:50 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's here to say.0:57:53 Daniel: So, the reason when I bring that up, is you now have this additional tool, if you will, in your skill set and understanding yourself and also addressing anxiety. I'm going to assume, I know, but you're dating your husband. How is the stress level? How's your anxiety? Does it ever spike again or what do you deal... How do you deal with your anxiety?0:58:21 Evelyn: I would say that when we got really close to getting married, I got really anxious. Luckily, I was able to talk about it because I have a husband who's really good at communicating and so he is able to ask me about things, and then I was able to tell him, so I was able to talk about how I was feeling, and the communication reduced my anxiety.0:58:51 Daniel: Which is something you wouldn't have done before, talk, you would have...0:58:55 Evelyn: Talking was not one of my management strategies for anxiety.0:59:02 Daniel: Even though you knew it would help. So that was one of the things that you struggled with. But being able to have the confidence now, and reduced anxiety, or at least anxiety to a level that you can now engage in that conversation, but your pattern in the past was to shut down, become more independent. And would you... In the past, how would you have handled that fear of getting married, how would that have played out?0:59:32 Evelyn: Okay, well, I would have run away. And I guess I wanna correct the no talking, because it's not that I wouldn't talk to anybody, but I wouldn't talk to the person.0:59:45 Daniel: Yes, a good clarification, yes.0:59:48 Evelyn: And I would just run and hide. When I was in college I knew where all of the women's bathrooms were that were really comfortable and had couches in them, because should I be avoiding someone who I was dating who was causing me anxiety, I would spend a lot of time there, because I knew that that was not a place they would go. So running away was a strategy that I used and would probably have been what I would have done. Just run away.1:00:21 Daniel: So you got married?1:00:22 Evelyn: I did.1:00:23 Daniel: Yes, and now, you're having sex?1:00:30 Evelyn: Uh-huh.1:00:32 Daniel: How did the things you learned before marriage help you or not help you in your sex life?1:00:39 Evelyn: Oh, boy, they helped me, but there was a long way to go.1:00:45 Daniel: So it wasn't automatic, you now...1:00:47 Evelyn: No way.1:00:49 Daniel: And part of this also is you're learning yourself in a later phase of your life, and so this is... Even if you're learning earlier on there's no comparison to having another intimate person in your sexual life. And so as much as you're comfortable tell us about the... What are some obstacles you had to face and how did you use these skills to help you through it?1:01:14 Evelyn: Okay, well, the major obstacle that we ran into was that sex was very painful for me. And I think that if I had not had the experiences prior to marriage that I had, I would have had no idea what to do from there. I would either have completely cut off sex and decided that that was not something we could do, or honestly, more likely I would have continued to say yes but absolutely hated it and felt every experience being something that pushed me farther away rather than bringing me closer to my husband.1:02:03 Daniel: So you mentioned painful sex?1:02:05 Evelyn: Yes.1:02:06 Daniel: You later found out through a medical check-up what that was and something that a lot of people still don't understand. Do you mind talking about that?1:02:13 Evelyn: No, I don't mind at all. I guess this goes back to how my prior experiences helped me, because I was willing to talk about it and so we had a lot of conversations, my husband and I, and I really felt committed to figuring out what was going on, and part of that was going to see the doctor. So I made an appointment with my OBGYN.1:02:37 Daniel: You knew something was wrong, whereas before, you may not have, you just might have thought, "Okay, this is just what sex is."1:02:44 Evelyn: Yeah, I might have. I mean, that would have been devastating, but yeah, I might have, but I did know that wasn't what it was supposed to be like, and I went and I spoke with the doctor, and she did some checking, and she said that I had vaginismus and she prescribed some physical therapy, so I was able to go and work with a physical therapist weekly for several months.1:03:20 Daniel: These involved dilators?1:03:20 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did dilators, we did massage, which not as fun as the other kind of massage, sorry, but was helpful. [chuckle]1:03:30 Daniel: Not With a physical therapist. But it was helpful.1:03:34 Evelyn: It was helpful.1:03:35 Daniel: Joking aside, it was helpful.1:03:37 Evelyn: All joking aside, it was helpful, because I started to gradually get to work on the physical part. I didn't enjoy using the dilators at all.1:03:48 Daniel: No. I can't even imagine.1:03:49 Evelyn: Not very fun, but I could put on a TV show or something like that, and distract myself a little bit.1:03:56 Daniel: So the physical therapist... Way to be, way to order support there. The dilators, the physical therapist, did that help resolve the pain?1:04:10 Evelyn: It definitely made significant progress toward it, but it was incomplete without the communication.1:04:17 Daniel: Was masturbation involved in this at all?1:04:21 Evelyn: Little bit, yeah.1:04:22 Daniel: So in your marriage, you're using masturbation.1:04:25 Evelyn: Well, what I used it for, I would say at that point, was to assist me with the physical therapy.1:04:32 Daniel: Yes. That would make sense.1:04:35 Evelyn: Because it did help there.1:04:35 Daniel: Warm things up. Yeah.1:04:37 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.1:04:39 Daniel: What about other times in your marriage, do you... Was masturbation used as a...1:04:45 Evelyn: Hasn't been, really. Not that it never would be, but we've done other things.1:04:51 Daniel: Good.[chuckle]1:04:57 Evelyn: I feel like the physical aspects were part of it, and so I was able to work on those, but the other piece of it that was really important was being able to work on the psychological and talk and go slow and be patient and enjoy whatever it is that we can enjoy, what pieces of it, as we continue to develop.1:05:23 Daniel: Evelyn, you've been so open here, and I assure you there are many listening to this who maybe even in tears, just feeling comforted from the words that you're using. Is there any, as we're wrapping up here, any advice that you would specifically give young women maybe who were in your shoes as a teenager or currently are, or anyone, what advice would you give?1:05:54 Evelyn: Well, I think something that I would like to have been able to tell my younger self is that, that feeling arousal is something that happens to people, and I felt so alone because of the way that it was being talked about, and I don't want to villainize any of the wonderful people that I got to work with as a youth, because they were incredible leaders. They touched my life and they blessed my life in so many ways, and they were absolutely doing the best that they could. Having said that, though, no one ever told me that feeling arousal is something that people experience and that it is not a sin, and it's just something that happens because that's the way we're built.1:06:58

0:00:05 Daniel: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess, is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today we have on the line, Anarie. And she will be sharing with us, her personal experiences around porn addiction in her relationship, and her experiences with addiction recovery treatment. Welcome to the show, Anarie.0:00:49 Anarie: Thanks Daniel.0:00:51 Daniel: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Give us some details, who are you, and tell us a little bit about your experience?0:01:00 Anarie: Hey. I am in my early 30s. I'm an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have two kids, ages eight and five. I was married for 11 years. We were married in a temple. And we had our divorce finalized about four months ago, and separated about a year ago. So, that's kinda where I'm at.0:01:24 Daniel: This is pretty recent and fresh. And I appreciate you, even with that, coming on and sharing your experiences here. Give us a little background on the... You shared with me that, was it your husband or you, who is experiencing the issues around pornography? Let's start there.0:01:47 Anarie: It was my husband.0:01:48 Daniel: Your husband. And how long into the marriage or before the marriage did you know that there was a problem?0:01:55 Anarie: So, we dated for about nine months before we got married. A pretty short time. Looking back at the time, it seemed like a long time. But about two months into our dating, kind of the time when we went fairly exclusive, he told me that he had had struggles with pornography before his mission. He was a return missionary at the time we were dating. He told me he'd had some trouble with it before his mission, that he'd resolved it with his Bishop, at that time.0:02:25 Anarie: And that since then, that it had been no issue at all, that he had no struggle with it during his mission. And but since meeting me, felt extra strong and resisting but he wanted me to know that that had been a part of his past. So I took his word for it, that it was in the past and that it was several years since he'd had a struggle with it. At that time, we didn't really talk about it very much other than I basically said, "Hey I don't expect you to be perfect, I'm proud of you for resolving it." And it sort of went to rest at that time.0:03:11 Anarie: Then about nine months after we were married, is when I found out that he was still actively using pornography and masturbating without my knowledge. And I found that out, there were some things off in our marriage, in our sexual relationship right from the beginning. And sort of when I was pressing into some of that, that he admitted that he had viewed some. At that time he told me it was just recent and that he'd never do it again. He felt it wasn't something that he needed to talk to the Bishop about, and I was okay with that. I do feel like I had a trauma response, and I was very anxious to believe that it really was just once or twice and kinda put it away at that time.0:04:11 Daniel: What happened before? So you were at about two months into the relationship, you guys became serious. And from what I'm hearing, it's impressive. Some individuals don't even, if they feel like their porn use or whatever sin it may be, is in the past, sometimes they don't even mention it. But he was mentioning it to you at about two months in. To, I don't know, clear the air, or just keep you informed. Which seemed like a good thing. What was your experience at the time?0:04:45 Daniel: I really value what you said, you said, "You know it's in the past." But emotionally, what were you experiencing? Were you thinking, "Oh boy, this is gonna be a potential issue in the future."? Or did you feel like, "Oh, it's taken care of, this shouldn't be a problem, going forward."? What were you experiencing?0:05:03 Anarie: That's a great question. I was nervous about it. It was a little bit of a concern. And actually, about a month before we got married, my older sister said to me, "Make sure you've talked to him about pornography. Make sure you've asked him about pornography use." And I said. "Oh... "0:05:22 Daniel: She did that just randomly, or did she already know?0:05:25 Anarie: Yes.0:05:25 Daniel: Okay.0:05:26 Anarie: No, she didn't know. And I didn't tell her. I told her, "Yes, we've had the conversation." And she seemed to imply that if there was pornography use that I shouldn't be marrying him. I very much wanted to marry him, so I chose not to tell her that that was something that had been a problem in the past. So I was a little bit nervous about it.0:05:49 Daniel: Did that scare you?0:05:50 Anarie: I knew it could potentially be a problem in the future. Yeah.0:05:53 Daniel: When she said, "If there's any pornography, don't pursue the marriage." I think it sounds pretty clear why you didn't share more, is because he had issues...0:06:05 Anarie: And I think rather than not pursuing the marriage, he was encouraging to take it seriously.0:06:10 Daniel: Oh absolutely, right.0:06:12 Anarie: And to not just dismiss it. Which I probably dismissed it more than I should have.0:06:21 Daniel: You said, before we went back to the dating phase, you were starting to talk about how you're seeing some signs after he'd mentioned he had ongoing issues. Did I hear you correctly?0:06:33 Anarie: Yes, yeah.0:06:34 Daniel: What were those indicators, those red flags, so to speak?0:06:38 Anarie: We did not have a good sexual relationship right from the beginning of our marriage. We didn't have sex very often. There were just a lot of things that were really weird, that seemed like they weren't typical at all for what I'd heard initial marriage was supposed to be like. And...0:07:04 Daniel: For the sake of the listeners and their, for a variety of experiences, are you comfortable with maybe giving some of those specifics? What did you see as...0:07:14 Anarie: Oh, what I was expecting?0:07:15 Daniel: Yeah. What you were expecting, or what seemed off?0:07:18 Anarie: I think I was expecting honeymoon phase, where we have sex multiple times a week, multiple times a day. I felt, before we were married, there was lots of sexual tension and lots of sexual interest, and so in my mind, I thought that once we got married, we were gonna have sex a whole bunch, and it was gonna be really fantastic, and we were gonna want each other whole bunch. And that's not what happened, when we got married there actually was a significant decrease in any sort of sexual tension or sexual interest.0:07:56 Daniel: Even though it sounds like you were wanting more frequent sex at that time, and were you communicating that, or did it just dry up real quick?0:08:08 Anarie: Yes, I was communicating it. Through our whole marriage, we had what would be termed as a sexless marriage, sex fewer than 12 times a year. And I was the one who consistently was saying, "Hey, I want more. This isn't right. What's wrong?" Reading lots of books. I took on a lot of the blame for that, and I think because by taking on the blame myself, it was something that I could fix.0:08:42 Anarie: So I read lots of things about Good Girl Syndrome, about maybe why... 'Cause he would sort of say that I wasn't responding the way that I should, and so he didn't want to, or usually when I tried to talk to him about it, it just sort of... It was almost like we couldn't talk about it, it never went much of anywhere. I expressed a lot of like my things, but then there was never much response from him.0:09:11 Daniel: Traditionally, we think of the husband as the higher sex desire partner. Was that confusing to you to see he had a lower desire than you, and that the sex was infrequent? Was that part of the reason why you're taking on the blame?0:09:27 Anarie: It was very confusing to me, especially because prior to our marriage, I was the boundary keeper, he was always pushing the boundaries sexually, and I was the boundary keeper. So then it was really confusing when we got married, and suddenly it was different. I wasn't feeling that desire from him any more.0:09:51 Daniel: And what was he saying, what was the feedback? And I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, and the listeners are taking this at the value... From your perspective. With that being said, what information was he giving to you? Was he saying that he wasn't attracted to you, or what was the reasoning he was giving?0:10:15 Anarie: Not really any reason at all. After a while, as I read more books and stuff, we did have the high desire-low desire. And so he would say, "I guess I'm just a lower-desire person," or... But no, there was never much explanation. I would say things like, I did believe that he wanted me before marriage and after marriage, he didn't, so that must mean that I was a disappointment, so I was the problem, I think that was part of it too. And so a lot of that, I was the one saying, and he didn't really counter it. I mean, he would say, "No, that's not the case," but then he'd never tell me why or do anything to make me believe anything different, in terms of attractiveness and interest, if that makes sense?0:11:11 Daniel: So the absence of information left you with very little to go off of, and it was like you didn't feel that attraction towards you, and he wasn't refuting it, so what else were you left to believe? Interesting.0:11:24 Anarie: Yeah. And so I filled a lot of that void with my own ideas and my own beliefs, and read books to try to figure it out.0:11:34 Daniel: So from there, that was about, you said, nine months into the marriage. Then when did... You're doing all this research, when did it finally become clear that this was actually being as a result of his porn use or masturbation? How far into that discovery was it?0:11:54 Anarie: Okay, so I'm actually kind of embarrassed that it was so long, but it was years before I really got clear that it was pornography, that it was still an active issue. We went to a couple of therapists, we went to one at LDS Family Services, and this was probably four years into our marriage. And so that was fairly traumatic for me, 'cause it ended up feeling very much like... The therapist that we went to... We only went to one session, so... And it was my first therapy experience, but I felt very much like the male therapist and my male husband were looking at me, confirming that I was the problem and waiting for me to get on board or figure something out. I don't remember any discussion of pornography in that session.0:12:57 Daniel: What were they then saying, or what... How do I ask this? You felt it like you were the problem. What were they identifying as the problem, specifically?0:13:11 Anarie: My lack of trust in him. So that actually... And that's something that my husband would say to me a lot. I would ask him about porn, so during this time, I would ask him about it, and he would tell me, "No, I'm not using it. I haven't for years." And he would say, "You need to trust me." So even though he knew that he was not trustworthy, but that was what he was using. It's something that needed to be resolved, is I needed to forgive and I needed to move on and I needed to trust.0:13:47 Daniel: It was manipulative. He knew he wasn't being trustworthy, yet asking for your trust.0:13:53 Anarie: Right. Yeah, yeah. And I was overriding a lot of my gut instinct. I can see now, looking back, that I didn't feel safe with him, and I didn't trust him, and I wasn't able to connect with him because he wasn't being truthful and he wasn't being safe. But I was so unwilling at that time to look at that reality, to believe that he could be lying to my face, that I was taking it all on myself and trying to fix it that way.0:14:23 Daniel: Unfortunately. An unfortunate event, not only the betrayal from your husband, but coming across the therapist who, is what we call triangulating, siding essentially with one person in the experience. But it sound like you got rid of that person pretty quickly, you only had one session.0:14:44 Anarie: Part of it was because he was male and I specifically wanted a female therapist. I felt like it would, I would feel safer. So the second therapist we went to was female, and we went to her for several months. And that was interesting. The only conversation about pornography that we had there was, I remember she asked him directly once if he had current use of pornography. He said, "No."0:15:10 Anarie: So then, all of the conversations about how I couldn't get over his past pornography use and how that was interfering and during that time, we were assigned to have sex a certain number of times a week or a month and report back. And when it was an assignment, it happened, so he was willing to engage with me when it was an assignment, when we were reporting back to the therapist. And I think I felt hopeful, so maybe we just needed to get jump started. So that when we were no longer going to that therapist, it again, that essentially disappeared.0:15:48 Daniel: Again, I wanna respect the fact that he's not here, but that sounds a little... For the sake of the listener, he wasn't, am I following you right, he wasn't willing to have more sex with you when you were asking for it but when it was an assignment from the therapist, he would meet that assignment? Is that what you're saying?0:16:07 Anarie: Yes, yes, yeah.0:16:08 Daniel: What do you think was the difference? Do you think he was wanting to meet a commitment with the therapist, or impress the therapist, or why the difference there? Why was he willing to comply as an assignment?0:16:22 Anarie: I think it may have been partly that; I also think there's a rejection factor, that because it was assigned by the therapist, it was clearly mutually greed, that he was on board and I was on board, so there was no risk of him initiating something sexually and having me feel unsafe or not want it, or be hesitant. Does that makes sense?0:16:44 Daniel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it seems to make sense, especially in the context of what we're talking about here. And what about your hurt; what about your trauma in this experience? Was the therapist mindful of your experiences?0:17:00 Anarie: No, I don't think she had much knowledge of betrayal trauma at all and I didn't have much vocabulary for that either. I don't know that I even knew what betrayal trauma was as a category or how it might be impacting me. Once I learned about betrayal trauma, then my response to everything made so much sense, my response over the years.0:17:24 Daniel: And you said how long were you seeing this particular therapist?0:17:29 Anarie: I think it was about four months. And it was right after the birth of... I think it was when my oldest was about a year old, so four years after our marriage, and we had a one-year-old baby at home.0:17:42 Daniel: And this, I think you're saying seemed to provide some sort of hope, because you're having more frequent sex, things seemed to be improving, but emotionally they weren't.0:17:54 Anarie: Yes. And I would often say to my husband; I felt like I was begging, "Please give me another chance. Can we try again? Can we do this more often?" And he would say, "Yes."0:18:07 Daniel: Wait, wait, begging for what? Sex, or just stay married?0:18:10 Anarie: For us to have sex, for us to have sex more often.0:18:13 Daniel: Oh, okay.0:18:15 Anarie: I talked to... One other thing that was going on here is I did talk to my OB-GYN about vaginismus, and got some information about a program for that.0:18:27 Daniel: So you were, you're experiencing painful sex also?0:18:29 Anarie: Yes. And I think largely due to no foreplay and no arousal. So I don't know that... The vaginismus program wasn't super helpful for me, because I think...0:18:47 Daniel: The foreplay was absent.0:18:49 Anarie: Yeah, there was no arousal happening at all, so of course it was painful and not awesome for me.0:18:57 Daniel: But even with the painful sex, you were still craving... Maybe craving isn't the right word, desiring more frequent sex from him.0:19:06 Anarie: Yes. I think a lot because I had been taught to believe that it was my responsibility as a wife to meet my husband's sexual needs and to fulfill my husband sexually. And I had been, I'd heard from parents and from church leaders that men who are happy with their wives don't look at porn. Which is a incredibly harmful message, that I had internalized and was accepting as part of truth. So I think part of it too was I knew that pornography had been an issue for him, and so one of my ways of helping him with that was gonna be to have sex with him, and then it wasn't working.0:19:49 Daniel: That's powerful.0:19:50 Anarie: I don't know if that makes sense, but that's...0:19:52 Daniel: It actually... You read... Yeah, well, I was about to ask that question, about how much of this was a preventative measure? You felt it was your responsibility as the wife in this eternal marriage to protect and provide a source for his outlet, to prevent him from pornography?0:20:12 Anarie: Yes.0:20:13 Daniel: You're desiring more sex, but there was also a strong element there of, "Okay, if I'm desirable enough to him he won't venture into this icky place," right?0:20:24 Anarie: Yeah, I felt like it was part of my responsibility as a good wife to have a good sexual relationship. I also think, my parents had also told me that sex is a beautiful thing. And once you're married, it's a beautiful part of life. So I do feel like I had a lot of positive affirmation for sex as well.0:20:42 Daniel: But you're like, "Where's the beauty?" [chuckle]0:20:45 Anarie: Yes, yeah. But I felt like I wanted that. And I wanted to make it happen, and I wasn't just gonna settle for like, "Oh, I guess sex is stupid and painful, and so good riddance." I wasn't content to just write it off as, "Okay, well, I guess we won't do this."0:21:03 Daniel: There are quite a few spouses out there that are in similar positions as you and, I don't have any statistics at all, but at least with my anecdotal experience and things that I've read, it seems like a lot of wives will go to a place of... They will actually stop having sex. But you were trying to make this beautiful. You were trying to achieve this thing that your parents were saying is good.0:21:34 Anarie: Yes.0:21:34 Daniel: And so that was amazing. That's, you weren't giving up on this hope that it could be something wonderful. So when did things, so to speak, hit the fan? When did you... Did he finally come out and say, "You know what, it's not you, it's been the pornography." What happened there, how did that occur?0:21:55 Anarie: Okay, so it was when my... Let's see, my five-year-old was a year old. Yeah, so our second child was a year old, and by that point, I felt like I had read all the books and talked to my doctor. Essentially, I felt like I had done everything to fix myself and to educate myself. I kinda felt like I'd hit a limit on what I could do on my end. And so I...0:22:32 Daniel: This was what, about five, six years in your marriage?0:22:35 Anarie: So this was about four years ago. So yeah, so it's seven years...0:22:40 Daniel: Seven years into the marriage.0:22:41 Anarie: Seven years into our marriage.0:22:42 Daniel: Wow, so this is...0:22:42 Anarie: So, yeah...0:22:43 Daniel: Wow, okay, good.0:22:46 Anarie: So I got to the point where I basically told him, "I am done with our marriage. I'm not willing to live in a marriage like this. It's not okay with me." By then, also, I had seen a lot more, I'd gotten a lot smarter about pornography usage. So I think a lot of my denial, believing that he was not actually engaging, had been broken down, because I actually started believing a lot of the studies, a lot of the information that was saying that pornography is an ongoing problem, that you don't just turn it off, like he was claiming he'd done. So basically I said, "I've done everything I can. Either you start talking and you start doing something, or I'm out of this marriage. I'm done."0:23:42 Anarie: And I really was to the point where I was willing to get divorced over this. That I didn't want to live in a emotionally disconnected sexless marriage. We were great. We've always been great business partners, good at coordinating logistical things. So the other aspects of what I believe should be part of marriage were completely non-existent. So I believe it was at that point when he realized that I was dead serious that... So by continuing to lie and hide his addiction, he was going to lose the marriage that he decided to start disclosing.0:24:18 Daniel: And can I ask you a personal question here? Is...0:24:22 Anarie: Yeah.0:24:23 Daniel: Were you at any time in that seven years trying to find clues, or go through his internet history or browser, and see if... Were you checking it?0:24:37 Anarie: No.0:24:37 Daniel: Wow, I'm impressed.0:24:39 Anarie: No, I didn't, I didn't play detective like that.0:24:42 Daniel: No, and forgive me, I'm not suggesting you should have, or anybody else should have. I'm just curious to what extent you were... You had a gut feeling, things weren't adding up, and you wanted to believe him, but there was something just off and...0:24:58 Anarie: Well, I am sort of amazed that I... Looking back, there was evidence. I did actually see some things that I should have realized were linked to current pornography usage. But I didn't. One other thing here that I wanna mention is that, about when we were going to that female therapist, you know, a few years into our marriage.0:25:21 Daniel: Right.0:25:23 Anarie: One of the things that came up was that he had never gone and talked to the Bishop after that initial disclosure nine months into our marriage. So I expressed that maybe if he went and talked to the Bishop to resolve that old issue with pornography nine months into our marriage, then I would be able to relax about it and trust him. So he went to our Bishop. And, I was not there so I don't know exactly what was said, but basically he disclosed that he'd viewed pornography within the first year of our marriage, and that it had been really devastating to me. So he told the Bishop some story, and about three weeks later, he was called as elders quorum president in our ward. Which I took to be a sign from God that he was clear.0:26:15 Daniel: Oh.0:26:16 Anarie: That the pornography issue was resolved. So I think that that was also part of why I refused to acknowledge that it was still actively happening all the time.0:26:28 Daniel: So you gave him this... Gosh, it almost sounds like an ultimatum. You were saying, "I'm done here. You gotta bring it forward," seven years into the marriage, what was his response?0:26:42 Anarie: He started disclosing some things. It was a staggering disclosure. He started admitting that he had... At first he just said that he had masturbated. So he'd been actively masturbating. And, which was upsetting to me but also relieving, "Oh, so that's where your sexual... You are a sexual person. That's where your sexual energy is going." And he said it at first that it was like old... He was using old mental images from his prior pornography use and stuff. So over the course of two or three weeks, he started disclosing more that, "Okay, there had been pornography use, but not in the last year."0:27:29 Anarie: Now that I know more about addiction or sexual addiction and how these disclosures generally happen, it really did fit the framework a lot, that he would disclose a little bit and see how I reacted, and then disclose a little bit more, or based on how I responded or what his shame was. And it was about three weeks after he initially started disclosing that he went to our current bishop. It was his initiation. He went to our current bishop and talked to his parents. And then, I talked to my parents and got in touch with a Lifestar therapist. And we were able to pretty quickly get into a sexual addiction recovery program.0:28:13 Daniel: So, now that you hear what's going on, you're able to get the right resources in there, at least different resources. So what was your experience? Was that... I asked these questions... I know you mentioned at the beginning you're divorced now, what was that experience like for you? Was it helpful?0:28:30 Anarie: It was very helpful, yes. I think we both felt a lot of relief that we had a problem that was identified, and that we could seek treatment for. So, there was a clear path for us to get on now. Whereas before it was like, "Something's wrong in our marriage, what's wrong? What's wrong? How do we fix this?" At least what was going on on my end. And with the pornography sexual addiction model, that gave, "Oh, there's a clear problem, there's a name for it, there's a name for what I'm experiencing, there's a treatment plan, there are other people that are experiencing this." So I feel like it immediately brought a sense of release and hope and safety that we would be able to figure this out.0:29:23 Daniel: For those who aren't familiar with Lifestar out in Utah, I think they're actually in a couple of different other states now but, for those who aren't familiar with addiction treatment, behavior treatment, what was that like? So you're saying now they're actually focusing on the pornography, and they're providing a treatment plan. Help the audience understand what does that mean? What does that look like?0:29:49 Anarie: Okay. So, the first part of Lifestar is called, Phase One, and it's a six-week education phase that couples attend together. If they want to. Sometimes individuals come 'cause their spouse won't come. But generally it's attended by couples, it's six weeks and basically it's kind of... I said educational 'cause the therapist presents information, and we had workbooks to do learning about addiction, learning about shame, some basic family of origin things. A little bit about drama triangle, attachment principles, and, during those we would sometimes break into smaller groups and share some answers from our workbooks. But for the most part, it was not a group therapy kind of experience.0:30:41 Anarie: Then after that six week, Phase One, then Phase Two starts, and that's when each person goes to their group therapy. So it's divided based on gender. So I had my group, and he had his group, and that was a group therapy, a weekly group therapy session. And we had additional workbooks and assignments that we would each work through in our individual groups; and their groups were led by a therapist. The Lifestar program is administered by different therapists, so it's like a franchise type of thing. And, the program that we did it in, the therapist really believes in not setting strict time parameters.0:31:29 Anarie: So, we were actually... Compared to some others where it's like phase two is six months and then you moved to the next phase. It was much more based on readiness and reaching a certain emotional place. So, compared to some other Lifestar group, I was in Lifestar for a total of three years before I completed it.0:31:50 Daniel: Is that...0:31:51 Anarie: And a lot of people do the Lifestar program in 18 months.0:31:54 Daniel: Yeah, you answered my question.0:31:54 Anarie: So I just wanna throw that out there, that's my experience, it's a little different from other Lifestar experiences. After about a year of... Or maybe 10 months of Phase Two, I graduated to Phase Three. And the reason for the different phases is just because it keeps people in the group that are in a similar stage of recovery, 'cause early recovery and fresh raw trauma looks and feels and sounds different than a little further down the recovery road. So, moving from Phase Two to Phase Three, it was more about...0:32:34 Anarie: There was a little change in focus, much less like raw trauma. And so, that's why there it was divided by phase. And in Phase Three, there were different assignments. One significant thing that's done... And they've changed it a little bit now, but there's a formal disclosure that happens during Phase Two, if both parties are willing, and it's a therapeutic disclosure. So the couple meet with the therapist, and it's a organized disclosure where the addict discloses to their spouse all of their behavior, behaviors in the addiction, and the spouse prepares questions in advance to ask.0:33:20 Anarie: So it's a chance to clear the air, start fresh, to ask questions in a safe environment, with a therapist you can hopefully watch for signs of lying or... And for me it was kind of healing because there had been a lot of unhealthy disclosure, it was helpful to have that formal disclosure where I had support, I knew it was coming, I had a therapist, I had friends. So in a way, that was able to heal some of the more traumatic earlier disclosures. So anyway, that was also...[overlapping conversation]0:33:52 Daniel: What a wonderful resource. So during that three years, you're taking it your own pace, working through your own trauma. So this is wonderful, you finally it sounds like now that you have your own cohort, so to speak, or a group of people that you can trust. You're able to now work through your trauma, your hurt, while he's dealing with his struggles. Did you see during that three-year period the relationship improve, or what was the result of attending these different phases?0:34:29 Anarie: Okay, so I do wanna throw in real quick that we also did individual therapy, we each had individual therapy sessions in the same group.0:34:35 Daniel: There at Lifestar, or somewhere separate?0:34:38 Anarie: We did it with the same therapist. So the therapist that led our lifestyle group was also the therapist we went to for our individual sessions, through most of it.0:34:49 Daniel: Excellent. So they understood what you were doing. And that's great. The reason why I point that out is, I think that's actually wonderful. In fact, studies show that if you only do group treatment, you don't have as high success rate. If you combine individual and group treatment, the success rate goes up. And the fact that your therapist was familiar with the program allowed that, I guess synergy, or you don't have to re-explain everything why you're doing what you're doing, or anything like that.0:35:22 Anarie: It integrated really well in taking place.0:35:24 Daniel: Exactly.0:35:25 Anarie: It was really helpful. We did have some couple sessions often on during that time mostly after disclosure and we did the couple sessions as well with the same therapist. When I was in phase three so in the third year of recovery I did go to an outside therapist for a period of time and that was really, really helpful for me. And looking back, I would say that I wish that we would have done some couples therapy with another therapist as well. I think because all of our treatment was coming from the same therapist there was some more... There were just some issues that came up with that but I think there might have been more safety if we had had some other therapist as well.0:36:08 Daniel: Would you point that out if you feel comfortable in doing that. I think that's actually a really important fact that people don't realize. There's a couple of elements here, and I'll share with you my thoughts, and then tell me what it was for you. I personally I'm very comfortable in doing individual and couples with the same people, there are limitations and there are exceptions there and that's usually discovered in the intake processes, is what we call it, and if I feel like it will be a benefit to both the individual and as a couple.0:36:43 Daniel: But there are cases where it's even if I'm comfortable with it, it's not a wise move or it's not a good way to support the couple because of the dynamics or whatever it is there and so a lot of clients will sometimes seek that from a therapist and there comes the other issues if a therapist is confident to navigate and to be able to separate the individual versus the couple experience there and sometimes bringing them together and so the individual seeking that kind of treatment both the individual and couples therapy, need to be aware of that in the risks and the benefits from that. What was your personal experience with that?0:37:27 Anarie: So, I feel that there were some very real benefit, because that therapist was aware, very aware of where each of us was individually. I think that that aided him in a lot of our sessions to... I don't know, I think he was aware of things that we didn't have to talk about 'cause he already knew but I think the biggest reason that I would say I wish we would have gone to someone else with kind of a safety thing.0:38:00 Anarie: So there were times that I felt like our therapist was on my husband's side, and there were times when my husband felt like the therapist was on my side. Whether or not that was accurate, I do think that... And maybe that would have happened with any therapist, but that came up. My perspective from me right now, and my therapist has acknowledged this, is that there was some manipulation, my husband manipulated the therapist. And that was part of why, when I went to an outside therapist, that was really helpful and empowering for me, because that other therapist had not been manipulated by my husband. So, I don't know.0:38:51 Daniel: That's... Yeah.0:38:54 Anarie: Because the therapists that we shared was so in it for multiple years and so he started giving blind spots and there are some things that he didn't see at the time that happens with any therapist.0:39:09 Daniel: Yeah, I think this is a very valid point, one that's kinda hard to communicate in a brief interview like this. And there's a lot of caveats here, I understand very well what you're talking about. I've even had to be very careful with working with couples that I'd known for a long time, or have been... Or I'm following up with, and knowing when and how to ask the right questions. It's very difficult when you have built that relationship, and you're not necessarily looking for all the signs of manipulation. And I'm gonna be cautious here. I'm tempted to say a good therapist can see those signs, but that means we would have to be perfect too.0:39:51 Anarie: Right. Yeah.0:39:52 Daniel: It's a very difficult experience.0:39:54 Anarie: Yeah. Well, and I think my main message to any of the listeners would be, I know it's really scary to get in with an initial therapist. At least it was for me. For me it was really scary to get into therapy, to build a relationship with a therapist, to be vulnerable about these things. So it was really scary to go find another therapist, another person, especially because I'd had some bad experiences...0:40:18 Daniel: Exactly.0:40:18 Anarie: With therapists before. I had some therapist trauma. But if you're feeling like you want another therapist, you want another perspective, a good therapist is not gonna be threatened by you wanting to go talk to somebody else for a period of time.0:40:31 Daniel: Thank you for saying that. Absolutely.0:40:34 Anarie: And you can get the support that you need to go talk to another therapist, or to go as a couple and try talking to another therapist.0:40:43 Daniel: I think you've brought up...0:40:44 Anarie: That you don't have to be still fiercely loyal to one therapist.0:40:50 Daniel: Absolutely, and I think that's a good way to approach it. First of all, trust your gut. You've had, whether there was actual manipulation going on or not, whether the therapist was siding with you or not, your experience is real and valid in that moment. There's a lot going on there's trauma, there's hurt, there's confusion. Trust your gut. First of all, trust your gut. And it is scary trying to get, especially if you've had bad experiences like you did with therapists, pose that question, "Do you mind if I look for another therapist for this?"0:41:25 Daniel: And their response I think will be a great indicator of maybe their motivation, or whether or not you should go get another therapist. If they get kind of awkward or embarrassed, or question, "Why would you do that?" Or if they even kind of stonewall in a way, "Well, we have all this history. How are you gonna communicate that history, and how will they follow our treatment plan?" That's a good indicator that you probably should go look a good therapist, like you said, will be totally supportive. Absolutely, go for it. This is your experience, do what you feel is important.0:42:07 Anarie: And I think sometimes, going to another therapist, I know this is sort of a tangent, but it could be motivated by wanting to run away from your current therapist. Maybe they're wanting you to look at some things you don't want to. So that could also be a factor but.0:42:22 Daniel: That is true. That's why it's hard. I think it's important to, kind of a tangent, but kind of not. This is all part of that experience in realizing what's happening here, especially when you have a partner who's manipulating you. Especially if there's been manipulation in the relationship, that therapist should be joining with you and building that trust, right?0:42:43 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah.0:42:46 Daniel: Yes there is a potential that you're running away, but you know what, you get to. You're having this experience and you need to have somebody who can trust you in this experience. And I've had people come back and say, "You know what? I was running away, and I realized that." And I'm putting it into my own words, but eventually he came out and says, "Thank you for letting me do that. I wouldn't have learned this if you prevented me or discouraged me from doing that."0:43:19 Anarie: Yeah.0:43:19 Daniel: And so, you're absolutely right. People are gonna run away when they don't like hearing what they're hearing but part of the experience is supporting that person in that experience, 'cause that's really what you're asking your husband to do, is, "This is scary. You should have been upfront with me from the beginning, regardless of my response. It's scary, I get it, this is scary for me, too. I need you to be open with me just like I should be open with you." And so, great, great. I think that was an important tangent. If we wanna call it a tangent. So...0:43:51 Anarie: One other thing I wanna...0:43:52 Daniel: Go for it.0:43:52 Anarie: Real quick, another part of my recovery over the last four years has been a 12 step program. The one that I have found most supportive was at a Lifeline group. So I did go to some of the LDS church's ARP program, and did not find them to be as supportive as I did the 12 step groups that are done through S.A Lifeline. [0:44:23] ____.0:44:24 Daniel: Oh, no, I think that's important. And if you could boil it down to one or two things. Why was it not as supportive...0:44:32 Anarie: Okay, so I wanna say at first ARP was wonderful, right at first, I'm super grateful that there was a place to go immediately, and that there was a place within a gospel context and within a gospel framework. So I did attend ARP continuously for about six months, and I was grateful for it. It met a need at the time. The biggest thing that I felt was not supportive about ARP, was actually the way that it was structured, that it was, it is missionaries that lead the ARP group, and a lot of them are not sufficiently educated on the topic on what they're dealing with.0:45:10 Daniel: Yeah.0:45:10 Anarie: And a lot of them spent a lot of time sharing. The missionaries would spend time sharing and teaching and lecturing things that were not actually helpful, were inadvertently shaming, and created a lack of safety. Another thing that I saw happen in the ARP group, in recovery there's a real need to give permission for emotion, and for letting your experience be what it is, and for having that experience be validated. And within the context of ARP, often it felt like there were certain emotions that were okay to have, and there certain emotions that were not okay.0:45:53 Anarie: Or that... And boundaries are important in any group, but I felt like there was not adequate space in ARP for anger. I felt like there was a real jump to forgiveness and share positive things and share faith things, faith-promoting things. And there's a place for that, but when you're down on the ground in, especially the immediate aftermath of trauma, there's so much anger and there's so much hurt. And there's, it rocks you spiritually.0:46:25 Anarie: I've gone through times where I don't even believe in God. I feel like, I know my betrayal that I experienced, it ran deep, a lot of it impacted my relationship with God. So there were times when I felt like I couldn't believe in God the way that that group was wanting me to believe in God. So for me it kind of increased the shame.0:46:47 Daniel: That is so...0:46:48 Anarie: Some of my shame experience there. Compared to the S.A Lifeline, where it's more general language, you talk about a higher power. And there I felt so much permission in that group to be wherever I was at, without feeling like I needed to show only the nicer part, or to be immediately jumping to the right way of saying things. If that makes sense?0:47:10 Daniel: I really appreciate you sharing that, about ARP. I think it's a great resource that is offered. I also agree that it's not for everyone, and I will say it's not for most people. I'm gonna say that very carefully for the very reason you've just mentioned. Untrained volunteers who are doing their best but not aware of how a lack of safety is created by reverting to forgiveness versus allowing that anger to be present and understanding how that can be healing in a group of people with a common experience.0:47:55 Anarie: Yeah.0:47:56 Daniel: Thank you so much. I don't wanna come across as criticizing ARP, I think it's a resource, but I think it's just that, a resource.0:48:06 Anarie: Yes, and I was incredibly grateful that it was there for me at the time, and by going there and talking to some of the people in the group, that's how I learned about some of these other resources as well. And I think that the experience in an ARP group it can be heavily dependent on who the missionaries are, and who else is there in the group.0:48:27 Daniel: Absolutely. So let's come... Thank you, I think that was very important. Let's come back around to... You have so much good information, I love it, I absolutely love it, but I'm trying to remember if we actually answered the question. In that three years of going to Lifestar, and these other various treatments, did we see progress in the relationship? What was a result of that?0:48:51 Anarie: Okay, so in terms of our relationship, we did not really, we were not very successful at connecting emotionally, through the three years. At different times we did. And I'm not entirely sure why. I felt like I made lots of individual progress, lots of individual healing and growth. And relationships with family, I saw relationships with my family members and with my friends, radically transforming and changing.0:49:38 Anarie: Within my marriage though, and my relationship with my husband, I was not seeing and experiencing much fundamental change. We were not connecting sexually, we were not connecting emotionally, really, through that process. We were supportive of each other in our individual journeys, but sort of in the same old like logistical business partner-y kind of way that it had been before.0:50:15 Daniel: So you don't want... You don't want a eternal business relationship, you want an eternal marriage.0:50:22 Anarie: Right.0:50:22 Daniel: So...0:50:23 Anarie: And I was... He might say The reason we didn't have a sexual relationship was because of my boundaries, and I would say, "Well my boundaries were where they were because there was still no emotional safety." I wasn't feeling... I didn't have trust restored, in like, I believe his disclosure was honest. I think I do.0:50:54 Daniel: You mean the disclosure in Phase One, or Phase Two?0:50:57 Anarie: The formal disclosure.0:51:00 Daniel: Okay.0:51:00 Anarie: Yeah, and I appreciated him sharing that. And immediately after there was some connection. He supposedly was able to achieve sobriety really early in the program. So a lot of times during the process of Lifestar, there's opportunity to work on conversation about experiences of pornography and slips, and disclosing that and working through that. And because he was so immediately sober, we didn't have much of that. So, I don't know.0:51:34 Daniel: So Tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important for the audience to hear, now quite a few episodes are available with my podcast. What is sobriety when we talk about sobriety? And it may sound like a stupid question, and you may be familiar with the way I've tried to define it, and explain what is pornography. So how did they measure that for the sake of the listener Sometimes the definition around pornography could be anything that could potentially lead to something more severe, for example, maybe looking at in a lingerie or Instagram or something like that. So how was... Did Lifestar create some sort of definition, or was this an agreed-upon sobriety? How did that get decided and navigated?0:52:25 Anarie: So, for us in Lifestar there, I think there was a certain expectation in the group of what sobriety is, which is not actively seeking out pornographic images or sexual stimulation, things that with... Because with the addiction model the addicts are turning to that as a way to medicate their feelings, and so it was a... They weren't sober if they actively went after something that would give them their sexual hits. So if they were searching for pornographic images, or...0:53:07 Daniel: Of any kind?0:53:08 Anarie: Of any kind. Or... I believe a lot of people in my husband's group, and I think in 12 steps as well, sort of had a 10-second fantasy rule, that if they engaged in fantasy for more than 10 seconds then that was considered a slip.0:53:31 Daniel: Okay.0:53:33 Anarie: Or they needed to share that with their stuff.0:53:36 Daniel: That's a pretty short, short window in reality.0:53:40 Anarie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.0:53:40 Daniel: But I actually like that concept because it's actually encouraging self-awareness. You're not penalized or you're not viewed, whether by your group yourself or whomever, as back to zero again because, oh, my goodness, my mind went into an automatic thought process, and now I have to... It seems impossible, but that self-awareness or that time allows you to become more, "Oh, my goodness, that's what's happening. Okay, I still have time to recover." And not have to count that as, "Oh, excellent, great." So he was basing sobriety, supposedly off of that.0:54:22 Anarie: Masturbation as well. No masturbation, no self-stimulation.0:54:26 Daniel: Got it.0:54:28 Anarie: But really, so much of it was about the lying. So no... And with my experience with my friends on the betrayal side of it, so much of it was about the lying and the hiding. So yes, it would hurt if there was a slip, but it in a way, it was almost healing to have those slips shared, 'cause then we were being let into that world, and we were a part of it.0:54:58 Daniel: So this is what's... What's really interesting to me, and not a criticism, 'cause I... Well, at least I like to think I understand the human behavior side of it, but now you've gotten at least, you're past phase one, into phase two, the disclosure has been made, you've had a ton of psychoeducation about what these patterns are like, and now creating this environment of trust where he can disclose to you. And you're actually finding healing from it. It feels, "Oh my goodness. You're open with me." Why would he hold that back? If you've made this success... Again, I know I'm asking you to kinda interpret from his experience.0:55:39 Anarie: Yeah, I'm not sure.0:55:41 Daniel: Okay.0:55:41 Anarie: I have wondered if shame... Just using the sexual addiction model, as like these behaviors are bad, coming from that background of these are bad and shameful, by disclosing, it's, I'm showing you again that I'm shameful.0:56:03 Daniel: For those who keep hearing the phrase, "sex addiction model", just to provide a little bit more clarity here, there are different theoretical approaches to treating sexual behavior. And one of them is what is being referred to here as this sex addiction model, which is places like Lifestar and other organizations, believe in treating this behavior. And you're bringing up an interesting point here, is even though the sex addiction model was very enlightening to you, it helped you as an individual. You made a comment about how it might have been reinforcing the shame. Is that what I heard?0:56:44 Anarie: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was ideal scenario for him.0:56:51 Daniel: Can you say more about that?0:56:55 Anarie: Just because I feel like all through the recovery there was too much fear around it. Even if it was trying to be normalized, and other people struggle with this, I still feel like there was not an acknowledgement of how normal pornography use is. And I feel like there was still a lot of fear around it, and a lot of labeling of it as being bad and wrong, and...0:57:37 Daniel: So it...0:57:37 Anarie: It itself was still demonized a lot. Even if there was work done to navigate shame, like education about what role it's serving, and choosing more appropriate ways to meet some of those needs, it was still coming from this premise of, the pornography and the masturbation in and of itself is bad and wrong and... Yeah.0:58:11 Daniel: Yeah, well that makes sense. So, what I think I'm hearing here is, even though you've had this psycho-education, you're having this great support network, you're getting the resources you need for both of you and your relationship, there's a possibility that same treatment method was also reinforcing more fear. And so, even though he knew he could reveal to you, and that could be an opportunity for success and recovery, acknowledging that you slipped up again, you are now taking on all these...0:58:46 Anarie: Yeah, it still made him look like the bad guy.0:58:48 Daniel: Very much so. Again, not minimizing the seriousness of it, or giving him an excuse here, but the reality is, is when we demonize the use we then become and identify with that demon, so to speak. Right?0:59:05 Anarie: Yeah.0:59:05 Daniel: And so being able to acknowledge that even though you know you've done it, wow, that could really feed into, not only his fear, but your fear. What does it mean? You did this again. Who are you? Is that what I'm hearing?0:59:18 Anarie: Yeah, yeah. There in... I quite often heard it like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. There's the addict self and the true self. And I think there's some truth to that, and I also think it's problematic and was harmful, for both of us, to turn it into a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type of scenario. Because I believe it's more integrated.0:59:45 Daniel: This is an experience that I hear so many have, where they finally get the... I thought it was beautiful the way you described it, is they provided resources and information that resonated with you perfectly, things made sense. And your personal journey, you felt like you were getting the right support, the right help, he was being held responsible in the right way to divulge his information and his struggles. While you have this great resource, you're also seeing how it was problematic. What is...1:00:22 Anarie: Yeah, look... Oh sorry, go ahead.1:00:24 Daniel: No, absolutely, go ahead.1:00:26 Anarie: I was just gonna say, looking back there, we're dealing with a sexual issue, pornography, his masturbation, sexual addiction, but there was not much information given in our program about healthy sexuality...1:00:42 Daniel: Bingo.1:00:42 Anarie: About normal sexual development. And I know normal's a relative term, but human sexual development, there was not much information about that. Even with disclosure, hearing about a lot of the forms of acting out that he used, I still, during my time in recovery, there was so much fear that there was never really any normalization of some of those kinds of behaviors. So I would hear that he'd done this type of pornography that, to me, was extra scary and extra bad. And there was never any space to put that in a less terrifying way.1:01:30 Daniel: I think that's huge, and I think that's a thing that's missed in all treatment. Well, not all treatment, but a majority of treatment. Even in those clinics that are, like Lifestar, who are phenomenal at what they do, we focus on what not to do, right? But we don't actually explore and understand from a expert point of view, of what healthy sexual behavior looks like. We have these assumptions, but those assumptions aren't necessarily true, or need further expanding on.1:02:06 Daniel: But I also, what you said there was, the type of pornography, and there's huge misunderstandings around this. Pop-psychology, a lot of the predominant resources out there teach this idea that it's escalative behavior, and that is... There's very, very little support for that, in that somebody who's looking up maybe bondage type of pornography, or something very serious, or is perceived as something more serious than another, then that creates this whole new treatment model or severity around the person. Or there's something more sickening about the person, which is, again, problematic and not supported in treatment or in science. But you started to notice that.1:02:54 Anarie: Yeah. I feel like I needed to have my experience validated, so I was coming at it from a place of a lot of fear.1:03:03 Daniel: Of course.1:03:03 Anarie: In fact, it was really scary for me to listen to his disclosure. I had never watched a rated R movie myself at that time, and so to learn about these sexual behaviors and these kinds of pornography, that was a really scary thing for me, to have to learn about those things. And it was helpful for me to have others validate how scary and how much fear there was in that. At the same time, I feel like there could have been... I could have been validated in my fearful approach to it, and a more balanced view could have also been presented a little bit sooner, so my narrative could have been validated and some reframes could have been offered more.1:03:51 Daniel: So what would you recommend to somebody who's in your position, situation rather, and they're struggling with a similar behavior, their spouse is hiding, and you're seeking treatment? How would you... I guess what I'm asking is, What would you do different?1:04:11 Anarie: Or what would I do the same? What would I...1:04:13 Daniel: Oh yeah, fair, fair.1:04:14 Anarie: Recommend for someone in that place?1:04:16 Daniel: Yes.1:04:17 Anarie: For me, getting support from others and moving out of isolation, is so so scary. So wherever you can start to get that support from. For me, looking back, I have felt some like, "Oh, maybe we should have gone to a different program. Maybe if we would have found a better therapist." Or, "I should have not gone to ARP first, I should have... " It's really easy to get into some of that. But any support, any... Reach out to the people around you, look for the best resources that applaud any steps out of isolation, any effort to express your experience and get support. And permission to experience what you're experiencing, to feel what you're feeling.1:05:09 Anarie: However you're coming at it from, whatever you feel about it, those things are valid, and there's a place for it, and you don't need to feel ashamed for the way that you're experiencing it. So you... I heard a lot of messages about how betrayed spouses need to respond right to disclosure. So, if you freak out, they're not gonna share with you in the future. But... And there's truth to that. At the same time, when you're in fresh trauma it makes sense that you freak out and that you can't hold space for yourself the way that you might be able to further down the road. So, I guess just permission to be where you're at when you're there.1:05:57 Daniel: I really appreciate that insight right there. I will often... If we discover that disclosure has to be made, I can't tell you how valuable it is to, depending on which partner it is, in this case let's say the husband, pulling them aside, meeting with them individually and coaching them through this. "Look, it's gonna be rough. You don't try to manage your wife's feelings and emotions at all. Let her experience it. This is about revealing, building trust, and she gets to have her emotions just like you do. In this experience, allow her to be. In fact, encourage it." But that's, I think... Oh, that's a big one. Thank you for bringing that up.1:06:47 Anarie: And that is something I felt Lifestar did a really good job, of giving space for the betrayed partner to have their experience, for their trauma to be validated. And to expect that the addicted spouse needed to find support elsewhere, and that the betrayed person can't... You want to come together as a couple to address the issue together, but for a time maybe you can't do that. You need outside support, outside people. So...1:07:23 Daniel: Absolutely, so you now are divorced. It's been how long since the separation?1:07:27 Anarie: Four months since it was finalized, a year since we separated.1:07:29 Daniel: Four months. Alright. And do you feel like you're in a better place now?1:07:34 Anarie: I do, yeah.1:07:37 Daniel: Well, Anarie...1:07:39 Anarie: And I'm hopeful that he is as well, and that he will be.1:07:46 Daniel: Well, it sounds like you're making some important decisions to move forward, and that healing is occurring. And I can't tell you how much I personally appreciate you coming on here and sharing your information with everyone else. I can't tell you...1:08:00 Anarie: Well, I hope that it can be helpful. There was so much... Shame thrives in believing that you're the only one. And for so long I believed that I was the only one, or one of only a few. And particularly the sexless nature of my marriage didn't match a lot of what I heard about other...1:08:21 Daniel: No.1:08:22 Anarie: Addicted people. And I think that was part of what was so distressing too, it seemed to not fit. And since recovery I've found, no there are others who are experiencing this dynamic of being married to someone who's acting out sexually while having a sexless marriage and sexless relationship. And so, for a long time I was even nervous to tell other people in my recovery circle about what kind of sexless marriage I'd had because often I was in a minority. So, for that reason I wanna share my story because I know now that I'm not the only person experiencing that kind of dynamic.1:09:03 Daniel: It's so much more common then people realize.1:09:04 Anarie: And when you... When you feel like it's just you, when you feel shame for your shameful experience, it's just so much more painful. So I know now that I'm not the only one experiencing that, so I wanna share that so that others can know as well, that this is part of the experience too.1:09:24 Daniel: I could assure you, the people listening right now are comforted by that comment. You did mention one other thing, before we go. I can't remember if we were personally talking about it offline or if it was at the beginning. You said one of the concerns, or... And maybe you have addressed it in a round about way. But one of the concerns you had about this treatment process, just the whole process I guess, was, yes, you got solutions, you got treatment plans for the porn and sexual behaviors, but some of the underlining issues weren't addressed.1:10:02 Anarie: Yes.1:10:02 Daniel: Do you mind talking about that for a second?1:10:04 Anarie: Yeah. So, in terms of our relationship and what was actually going on in our relationship, I feel like the pornography was a symptom of other things that were going on. So in spending a couple of years honing in specifically on pornography, and the pornography use, and regulating and learning about that, it took a couple of years before we started actually looking at more of our relationship dynamics, that were actually more of our problem. And it's linked, so it's not like... Okay.1:10:50 Anarie: But in a way I feel like the focus on the pornography use was able to feed... We almost... It started to become a part of some of our underlying issues. We almost used it in old unhealthy ways. So, in terms of what the underlying issue was, there was some control and power manipulation, lying, unhealthy shame management, enmeshment, differentiation issues, sexual shame, repressed sexuality. Some of those things... We spent so much time on the regulating sobriety and porn behaviors that by the time we started actually getting to the real meat of stuff, it took a couple of years.1:11:48 Daniel: Which is absolutely a case I see quite frequently here. We may resolve the pornography, the addictive behaviors, but when that's gone what happens is exactly what you described. You're going to this, you're healing, but where's the connection? The absence of porn and undesired sexual behaviors does not create connection.1:12:16 Anarie: Yes, yes, yes. [chuckle]1:12:18 Daniel: Right?1:12:19 Anarie: Yeah. Yep.1:12:19 Daniel: And so, this is an element that is always... Again, I'm using always. Not always the case. Is too often overlooked, because we do, we make the symptom, which is the pornography, the problem. And we think if we get rid of the problem, which is actually just the symptom... There's clearly something else going on here with the constant manipulation. And unfortunately, the way... The addiction model, or pop psychology, whatever we wanna refer to it or blame it on, tells us that manipulation is a result from the escalating behavior. Well, we're finding that it's actually an underlying issue that's unresolved and not treated. And then the pornography, in a sense, becomes yet another form of manipulation to cover that real problem. It's this benign tumor that just is hidden somewhere we can't find it. Right?1:13:17 Anarie: Yes. And pornography addiction recovery can, in a sense, end up being used as a tool of manipulation.1:13:25 Daniel: Yes.1:13:25 Anarie: And, there was something I was gonna say. I can't remember.1:13:33 Daniel: Now, if it comes back to you feel free to jump in.1:13:36 Anarie: Sorry. [chuckle]1:13:36 Daniel: But I think that you hit... I think one of the biggest takeaways from this is not to neglect the... We focus too often on getting rid of something. I phrase it... You went to treatment at the beginning, no one talked about pornography, and then you went to Lifestar where pornography was finally talked about, but yet connection wasn't addressed. If there was some way that we can address both the undesired behavior and the desired behavior... And in my practice, I always say, "Let's focus on the desired outcome. What is the desired outcome? Okay, you're using pornography right now, the desired outcome isn't just to stop that.1:14:20 Daniel: The desired outcome is, "I wanna feel closer to you, I wanna feel connection. Okay, even if you saw some pornography today, I still wanna come home and have a meaningful discussion with you, I wanna have meaningful sex, I wanna feel close to you. If that means getting rid of the pornography, great. If it means we need to understand how to communicate better, let's do that too." And it sounds like that was an element that was missed, at least in your experience.1:14:52 Anarie: Yeah, and it was talked about, and I... Connection, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. That's a phrase that I heard a lot in recovery. So there was a lot of talk about connection.1:15:06 Daniel: Yeah, but we're discovering, it sounds like you did too... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth at all. Is the absence of the addiction doesn't re-result in connection.1:15:18 Anarie: Yes, yeah, yeah.1:15:19 Daniel: So we talk about it a lot, but we don't actually, I think, create a treatment plan around that and try to improve it.1:15:27 Anarie: Yeah. And I do wanna say that I am grateful that pornography... Because pornography was labelled as an issue, as a problematic thing, it gave a doorway into some therapy and some information that was incredibly helpful. So I am grateful that there was this issue and there are these programs that help, that were able to catch me and help me get directed into some real therapeutic help.1:16:00 Daniel: Absolutely. Well, you've given us so, so much to think about here. And I know it may sound redundant, but I'm gonna ask again, any final thoughts or things you wanna leave us with?1:16:13 Anarie: I do wanna share just some of the things beyond betrayal trauma that I needed to learn, and that were an important part of my recovery, and my process of learning how to be a healthy individual in a healthier relationship. Because there were definitely

Daniel Zimmerman, an LA-based digital marketer, took a year sabbatical and went on a 50 state search for the perfect artisanal ice cream! In this quest, not only did he get to taste some spectacular ice cream, he also met some fantastic people along the way. Here he is today to talk about the lessons learned on this journey in pursuit of ice cream. Well, welcome, Daniel. So happy to have you here. Daniel: Thank you for having me on. Katty: So I know that you and my colleague Laura had spoken at length about your adventures recently, and I just found it fascinating and I wanted to continue our conversation. I think the audience will just find it really interesting to see the journey that you took, the decisions that you've made to take the sabbatical, and the lessons learned along the way. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us. Daniel: Absolutely. If there's anything that you know, I could share with others that would help them along their way in their own journey, I would be more than happy to do it. Katty: Fabulous. Well, to give some context to the audience, you took a year sabbatical, and you went on the pursuit of tasting ice cream in all 50 states? Daniel: That is correct, yes. Katty: So what inspired you? Daniel: I've always had a love for ice cream. But more specifically then that, it was more like the fear of potential regret. This is, you know, everyone talks about, oh, I want to travel in my 20s I want to explore the world, I want to do all these things. But really, the idea of just always being talk and not actually following through scared me more than not doing it. Which I'm not kind of a strange way to think of it. And really, it was just something that I thought I was at that point in my life where I had some money saved up, you know, I didn't have any real responsibilities in terms of a mortgage, no kids. I still have my metabolism, so I can just eat loads of ice cream. Katty: Lucky you! Daniel: Yeah, so I had to do that while I was on the tail end of getting as much out of that metabolism as possible. Really it was just the perfect storm. And I just saw this golden opportunity and I was like, “yeah, you know, what I'm gonna follow through on this, you know, not just talk about it, but actually do it”. So that was kind of the onset initial inspiration. Katty: How long have you had this idea that one day, I'm going to do this ice cream adventure? Daniel: So it's always one of those like vague ideas. I never really put like a true concrete plan of going a road trip to all 50 states. It was more along the lines of you know, I've always had a love of ice cream. You know, like I had been eating like every day since a child. July is National ice cream month. So starting college, I would do this thing where every single day during the month of July, I'd try to find a different flavor of ice cream. And then like to eat it and write you know, a tiny review on it. And then like, over the years, they just, the reviews got longer flavors got crazier. And like, eventually people like you know, like, here are some other crazy things that you should do. So they would start sending me links. Someone sent me an ice cream cleanse, which is like a juice cleanse things, but with ice cream. You just eat ice cream for three days straight, and it's like a special vegan ice cream, but you like cleanse your body of toxins, and then you lose weight. So I did it and I lost three pounds in three days, and it was this crazy thing. And then like it just kind of kept snowballing where people would send the other ice cream challenges around the country. And so I just had this ongoing list of like, cool places around the country that you know, like I got to visit. And then from there, it just kind of snowballed into like well, you know, I have like at least two dozen states I need to visit now. So like why don't I just knock out all 50 and I'm sure there's like I supposed best ice cream in every single state. And sure enough, there's all these different publications that have you know, from you know, Scoop Adventures to BuzzFeed, Thrillist to you know, I think PBS had one too, like the best ice cream every state. So I literally just compiled all those lists together and then giant excel sheet. And then that was kind of like my road map of all the places I need to hit up. Katty:  I love it. So you took your experience with data! Daniel: Definitely. I did some excel hotkeys there to compile lists. Katty: That is funny. Well, it's clearly very strategic in terms of how you attack this plan. Daniel: Thank you. Yeah, like I said, it was something that, you know, there was a kernel that someone else sent into me, and then that somehow, you know, blossomed into something else entirely. So it's not always, you know, to have the crystal clear vision is to be able to adapt along the way and let a small idea grow into something bigger. Katty: Nice. Love it. Love it. Of course, I'm sure everybody asks you all the time, what's your favorite flavor? What's your favorite place that you went to.   Daniel: Yes, yes. As far as favorite flavor goes, I get asked that a lot. And my answer is always the same where I say there's no such thing. There are a time and a place for every flavor. So that's like, my canned response. But you know, and everyone hates that answer because you know, you're supposed to have a favorite. But if I think about it more, you know, cognitively I think food tastes and in general, and this very much applies to ice cream, that it's not always just about objective criteria of you know, this is like the best amount of milk fat ratio, this is, you know, supposed to have so many parts per million of you know, like a Madagascar vanilla bean whatever. I think it's very much a social experience where you know, eating with a friend, you know, you eat it at a time, like on a hot summer day, you're eating it in all these other situations that can impact how you taste it. So, it is so subjective, I don't think there is an objective criterion of what can constitute as like a single greatest flavor. Which is something that I kind of knew beforehand, but at the same time, you know, I was like, maybe I can be proven wrong, like maybe there is truly something that's like, you know, transcendent will reach Nirvana or something. Maybe, but that wasn't the case. Katty: But it's also one of those foods that it triggers memories. You know, if you remember your childhood. Yeah, this is just comfort food, if you will. Daniel: Oh, 100 percent. You know what, I've been talking to other people about this, and I ask them about some of their most cherished times eat ice cream, they usually like recall, sometime when they eat with their grandparent, who's no longer here. You know, they went up to like a farm by their place in some rural area, and they say it was the best ice cream they ever had. And then, you know, I'm where I was like, I'm kind of wondering like, is it truly that great? Or is it the memory of, you know, spending with a loved one that is also what's impacting, you know, some of those rosy tinted memories they have. Katty: It'd be interesting to see, if you, I don't know, if you have plans of taking your ice cream adventure overseas, and have a  comparison, right? Daniel: Oh, absolutely. Like, so I had those ideas like the second I finished the 50th state, or even beforehand, really, but like, similar to what I said beforehand. But the original goal was just to hit all 50. And I don't know necessarily that I would do the same intense traveling at that kind of breakneck speed that I did beforehand. But, you know, I definitely have plans to try ice cream all over the world, because throughout this whole journey, like other people will reach out to me like, “hey, yeah, I stumbled across, you know, your social media or something like that from a picture of ice cream that you took. And I was like, we have good ice cream, or, you know, gelato or custard or whatever, in like all these other different countries.” So I have invitations from India, to Australia, to Japan to you know, England and beyond, to try all these different ice cream. So the list is always growing. Katty: Wow, fantastic. Yeah, I'm originally from Iran. And we have some really good Persian ice cream here in LA. I don't know if you've tried it or not. But I'll send you a couple links of some places to go. Daniel: Oh, my gosh, I mean, specifically, in Los Angeles, you know, Sapphire and Rose ice cream I love. Katty: Yes. that's the one. Daniel: Yes. You know, I used to live a couple of blocks from that ice cream shop. So I've been there a handful of times. Katty: Good, good, good. Good. Yeah. They make it certainly makes it very unique. For me, obviously, it reminds me of my childhood.   Daniel: Absolutely. And, you know, there's, I mean, I do like this the sharing of cultures too, you know, you can find it. It's not just in Los Angeles, where is the only place you can Persian ice cream, but, you know, just this idea of a different take on it. And that's something that I think should be celebrated also, as far as, like, pushing the boundaries and not just staying within the comfort zone of you know, your chocolate, vanilla strawberry. Katty: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then again here, in LA, we have such a variety of Mexican ice creams, which are absolutely delicious. Daniel: Absolutely. I was just gonna say like, it's surprisingly, where you think, like, such a vibrant, you know, Latino population, Southern California. And then also, like, I'm thinking about, like, other Latino populations around the country, like Miami, Florida has, you know, a lot of good Cuban ice creams, and, you know, also like some inspiration from, like, Latin American like South America to like with some of their guava with this type of like, almost like a biscuit cookie. They're called Maria cookies, but it's kind of like a biscuit cookie. But it's huge in those areas. And when it was brought to Miami, like it became the number one seller of, at this one ice cream shop in Miami. So, it's crazy how that it's literally, you know, like, exporting flavors to other areas and kind of expand the horizon. And then they perform really well, which is always, like, exciting to see. Katty: Ice cream, is at the intersection of cultures and how it brings it all together. Daniel: Absolutely, that that is a great way to phrase it. Just because in my personal experience, I haven't met a single person who doesn't like ice cream. I mean, I think even people that are lactose intolerant, they like the idea of ice cream, and they're just maybe a little sad that it doesn't agree with them, in their digestive tract. Katty: Yeah. Or they have lactate pills to take so they can have ice cream. Daniel: Yeah, they will suffer through it. Katty: Yeah, there you go. So, I know that part of this journey that you've taken, because I know that you have an idea to write a book, it's really about the people and the cultures that you came into contact with. Can you talk a little bit about that? Daniel: Absolutely. So when I first started the journey, you know, I had a fixed budget set aside for all my room board, ice cream, travel expenses, what have you. And then while traveling, I found out about this platform called Couchsurfing, where literally, it's an online community, you know, there's an app for it, and then you can pretty much search within a city and see if someone might be willing to let you sleep on the couch for free. And it's, it's an amazing thing, and it's not just about you know, getting a free place to stay. It's you know, about pretty much exactly what we were talking about, as far as that exchange of cultures and ideas and, you know, stories and just sharing moments with other people. And it's something that I didn't think of at all at the onset. But similarly, you know, when you kind of keep an open mind, there was like a seed that was planted, and that bloomed into something incredible. And just the idea of when I started, you know, just Couchsurfing staying with all these people, I try to learn, you know, things from their perspective, and it was just to say, life change, it would be an understatement, you know? Oh, absolutely, you know, it as far as I think, one, you know, your empathy just goes through the roof, because you realize, you know, we're all people, we kind of going outside your bubble comfort zone, you can take on new perspectives, you can learn, you can grow. There are so many different things that, you know, so many different by-products that come up from these types of travel stories and experiences. And so much so that, you know, like, there were there were times when you know, I would I try to talk about, like all the things that I learned along the way, sometimes there are, you know, I think there might be some more overarching things in terms of like hope of humanity, or, you know, like some other really big lofty ideals. And then sometimes, it's just a really cool story of how he'd know like, someone that they-- So one guy, he literally, Forrest Gump'd it and ran from Los Angeles to Miami, in like, 100 days, like, so that's like, over a marathon a day, pretty much. And so he just has a really cool story. And, you know, so I stayed with him and, and I learned about all the crazy things he's doing. And he's just a really interesting character. So yeah. So that's kind of, I'd say, some of their stories, and maybe how sometimes how they've changed my perspective on things is kind of what the book is trying to be about. Katty: But how amazing, it's almost serendipity here where you're doing a 50 states pursuit, and then you meet someone who's doing their own 50 state pursuit of something different. There you have that common denominator. Daniel: Absolutely. It is interesting, too, when you just because I mean, within the 50 states, but just the city. So basically, when they're doing their own 50 standard ventures like for which are the cities that are overlapping? What are the ones that you know, may have a specialty in one area, but may not as much in another? So it's definitely interesting, and then we talked about, like, I don't know, sometimes in Couchsurfing at least, how, if there's a chance, “hey, we happened to have stayed and slept on the same couch pretty much, just by pure coincidence. And yeah. So, then there are those kinds of moments to that always just kind of fun or coincidences, I guess? Katty: Yeah. So I know that you are very strategic, and you know, in your professional life, an account manager, and you look at data and all of that. Did you? Did you take that approach into deciding which whose couch you were going to be staying at? Daniel: Yes, and less than yes. I mean, so I would say, it's not as much data more about just research in general. So basically, everyone on Couchsurfing, they fill out a profile, they talk about themselves, they have to, you know, in terms of -- you try to talk about some of your interests so that you might have like, common denominators things to talk about, what have you. So basically, I would say, I took some of the research approaches that I would do when I was an account manager with clients. And then, you know, tailor messages to like, outreach, like, “Hey, I noticed, you know, we both have the same favorite movie”, what have you. And then, you know, you kind of use that to bridge the gap when doing outreach. It is, in some ways, like sales a little bit. So you know, you can't just have, you know, it's not necessarily like an email blast, where you're getting it all out, I'd say it's closer to a one on one sales, where you really kind of want to tailor it to them to have the highest success rate. So there is some of that type of account management in as well. Katty: Very relationship driven. Daniel: Absolutely. And kind of through this, you know, as you get more experience you like you notice things that might be more effective and picking out as far as things that they've had interested in or places they've traveled to, or things that you can, like, how interesting that you get a higher response rate from then maybe someone might be slightly more generic. Katty: Got it. Love it. What has surprised you in this pursuit? Daniel: I mean, aside from the people, um, I mean, that's obviously a big one. I would say. I mean, I was surprised a lot. Just because, I mean, in terms of ice cream, like, I was definitely surprised at, like, some of the crazy flavors that people are coming up with around the country. You know, we talked a little bit about Saffire Rose Persian ice cream, you know, that's not that common. So, I mean, that is, is something certainly more unusual and out there. But also, there'll be other places like, you know, there's this place, forget the town, but they were right on the border between New Hampshire and Vermont, and they have like a peanut butter curry ice cream, which is really crazy to think about, but also like, surprisingly delicious, like, it has a nice nutty base, like a little curry kick at the end. So, I mean, or, you know, like, in Portland, Oregon. There was a paring blue cheese ice cream, which is like, really strange to think about, but it ends up tasting like, you know, a pear cheesecake of sorts. And he's like, “Oh, this is actually pretty good.” Katty: Right. We have it like on a salad. Right? Daniel: Right. Yeah, absolutely. I'll take myself a side of pear ice cream, please. So like, you know, I was surprised in those regards. And then, like I was talking about, like, all the people surprised me and how much I learned there. And, and then I also was surprised at like, how, in some ways, I was able to travel fairly inexpensively, but the other time, there were other things I thought would be inexpensive to travel but ended up costing surprisingly, more than I had anticipated. So, so things just like booking, you know, the romanticized idea of booking a train across the country or something like that. Like, those are like, surprisingly, more expensive than like, renting a car, sometimes like, really? A train ticket is, you know, sometimes, like equal parts as far as like a plane just based on like, the number of stops you do. Or, you know, buses are always the cheapest, but there's like all these other things to think about. Katty: Okay, so in my mind, I guess I assumed, incorrectly. I assumed this was a driving trip, but not necessarily. It was a plane, trains, and automobiles trip for you? Daniel: Absolutely. I mean, I think I took just about every form of transportation. I did take a ferry to an island. So that includes boats as well. Katty: I guess if you wanted to make it to Alaska, you would've needed to somehow. Daniel: That was a plane. So yeah, that one wasn't as connected. But there was an island, just off the coast of the states in Washington. So then we went there and had to take a ferry to get there. But the idea of-- I would often what I would do is, you know, I would go out on multiple legs, I would say, where I would do a loop of, you know, a handful of states and then maybe like, return to like Los Angeles for like, a week or two, just to like, kind of get my bearings a little bit. Gotta you know, train like that does drain you a little bit when you're just on the road. Yeah, months on end. So even though it was a full year of traveling there, it was broken up into, like, small sets. Katty: Yeah, living out of the suitcase, I would imagine after all those months. Daniel: Yeah, yeah, you could do that for a while. But there is something nice about you know, having a home base of sorts, you know, a nice bed to crash on. Katty: And did you continue on this adventure on your blog so that others can follow you? Daniel: Absolutely. Well, so the blog is specifically dedicated just to the ice cream for you. But you know, like I said, I'm really just trying to currently still reach out to like, some people, I stayed with trying to like, put, you know, a fine point on some of the things we talked about, and then hopefully get that into a book, it is definitely not an easy task. I don't know whether or not I overestimate or underestimate the difficulty of it. But it is, certainly I'm still trying to work through and you know, I do have the discipline and dedication to overcome it. I just don't know exactly how long it will be. Katty: Yeah. Got it. But in terms of how you document it along the way, were you just journaling every, every day? Daniel: Not every day. But you know, definitely when something noteworthy happened, I, you know, always had, whenever I got internet access, I had an ongoing, just online document that just literally has, you know, dozens of scores probably of single typed, single-spaced typed pages, where them notes from interesting things that happened or what have you. And then I have like, actual journals filled with like ice cream notes based on the flavor and like texture, composition, all that kind of stuff. Katty: And then you came back and started working with an ice cream shop, or was that concurrently?  Daniel: Yeah, so that was --so I took the year-long journey around all 50 states. And then towards the end of that someone kind of planned the idea, like another seed of an idea in terms of, should you open up your own ice cream shop now that you've had all these good things? And I thought that was an interesting idea. Like, maybe I should probably, maybe I'll do a little research into that. Be very thoughtful in terms of that approach. So really, what I want to do is like, learn, you know, how these the best places that I went to around the country, how do they do it? So I reached out to like, a handful or two of the best ice cream shops I visited, and asked if they would want to take on an apprentice. So there was an ice cream shop up in Maine. That was like, yeah, come on up to Maine like will make ice cream for a season. It'll be awesome, and I can teach you all about that. So that's what I did. Then after that, I road tripped back from Los Angeles to Maine to live there for like 6 to 8 months and then learned everything about ice cream making-- from running the business, all that good stuff. So, and at the same time, they were benefiting for me in terms of digital marketing and account management and some of those other skills that I had, you know, more previous corporate life. So we were both benefiting from this apprenticeship. Katty: And then are you thinking of foraying into entrepreneurship with your own ice cream business? Daniel: That's a great question, and the answer is no. I am so glad I did this, you know, like data mining apprenticeship to learn about it. And then realize that I don't necessarily want to open up my own shop. I'm glad I did that, as opposed to having, you know, opening up my own shop and doing the very costly mistake or learning that the hard way. I still love ice cream, I can make some pretty good ice cream now. I have the skills to do it. But as far as you know, open up my own business. There's like a handful reasons why I came to that conclusion, but I decided against opening up my own. Katty: Well, you'll get to do it for the love and the passion of it. Daniel: Absolutely. Katty: Good. Good. One final question. I want to kind of bring it back to where you are now in your career and really talk about the concept of discipline. I know, it's something that you had mentioned earlier when we were talking about innovation and creativity, and you brought it back to how discipline is really where you have focused and that's really the differentiator for you. Daniel: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, discipline is so important in that, I mean, there are so many different aspects where the discipline comes involved. One in terms of, even when I was on my journey, like I as much as is a fantastic idea to talk about, you know, all the amazing experiences that I had traveling and eating ice cream, and, you know, doing whatever. I would be lying if I said there weren't, you know, some tough times. There weren't some times when I had doubts. But the same time, you know, I, when you kind of trust in the process a little bit. You know, even if you're having a less than a great day, what have you to continue pushing forward and, you know, having that discipline resolved to kind of go through with what you set out to do. You know, just the idea of just traveling alone for, you know, extended periods of time. Like when I first started out, I didn't, I mean, I wasn't a great traveler, you know, I talked about traveling, I hadn't really done much alone. So then the idea of being alone in a foreign place before I found Couchsurfing, and I had no idea what I was doing. And you know, there are times when you get lonely like is this whole thing going to work out? But you know, persevering through that, like keeping the discipline, and then again, life-changing experience. And then discipline in terms of, you know, career-focused, like, definitely seeing something through to the end, I'd say that, you know, inspiration is well and good. It can provide, you know, momentary energy, but discipline is where you always kind of need to fall back on. And just kind of knowing, forcing yourself even when, you know, it might be a little bit tough. Because then inspiration usually comes again after that, you know, it kind of ebbs and flows. It's not always just, you know, the creative drive juices pushing everything forward. There is something that should be said, of trusting in the process and pushing through some of the tougher times too. Katty: Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes, I actually have it up on my wall. It's a Stephen Covey, quote, just says “making and keep commitments to yourself”. It is so true. That's what the discipline comes into play is to not only make them because they sound great but actually keep them. Daniel: And I love the part where it says to yourself, because you know, sure we don't want to let others down, but you don't want to let yourself down too. Yeah, that's really I think, finding that internal motivation. Katty: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Daniel, I can't wait until you get an opportunity to sit down and write Cream of the Couch. I can't wait to read. It sounds like a fascinating, fascinating journey. And thank you for taking us along.   Katty: Thank you so much. That was Daniel Zimmerman sharing his story of the pursuit of the perfect ice cream. You can follow his blog, called TheKingofIceCream.com or follow him on Instagram with @_kingoficecream and learn more about this unforgettable journey that he was on and everything that he learned along the way. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing and recruitment firm specializing in creative marketing and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artistancreative We look forward to connecting.

In this episode, Wade & Jenn read and discuss the first chapter of the book of Daniel. As Wade reads in Daniel we discuss the importance of being in the world and not of it. How can we glorify God while living in the world? How did Daniel live in Babylon and still hold true to his faith? Also, what lessons can we take from the first chapter of Daniel?So, kick back grab your Bible and follow along with us.

Daniel and Andrew talk about different ways of relating to the ancestors. Especially getting into how to help the ancestors evolve and make our lives better in the process. They also get into their relatinoships to the orisha and ways of thinking about practicing a tradition that you were not born into.  Daniel can be found through his site here. His events are there too.  Daniel's talk on practicing other peopels traditions is here.  Andrew's upcoming Ancestral Magick Course can be found here.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcription ANDREW: Welcome to the Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm hanging out today with Daniel Foor, and Daniel is a Ifá priest and has done all sorts of wonderful work along the lines of ancestral healing. And Ancestral Medicine is the name of the book that he has out. And he and I have a lot of similarities in practices and the kinds of things we're interested in, so, you know, lots of people have been suggesting I have him on for a while, and, and well, today's the day! So, welcome, Daniel! Thanks for being here!  DANIEL: Thanks so much. It's good to be here.  ANDREW: There are people who might not know who you are. Who are you? What are you about?  DANIEL: Yeah, well, I ... to locate myself a bit, I'm a 40-year-old, white, cis-gendered American living in western North Carolina. From Ohio, originally, but traveled a good amount, but live in the States, and have a PhD in psychology. I'm a licensed therapist, so I have a background in mental health.  But mostly I'm a ritualist, and I've been training with different kinds of teachers and traditions for over 20 years now, and started out with more shamanic pagan background with magical things, and migrated into involvement with Islam, and Sufism, Buddhist practice, and then circled back to involvement with indigenous systems and earth-honoring traditions. And in the last decade have been immersed in west African Ifá practice, lineages in the Americas and also in west Africa, and so I'm an initiate of Ifa, Obatala, and Oshun, and Egungun priesthood, [inaudible], and in the lineage of Oluwo Falolu Adesanya Awoyade, Ode Remo, in Ogun State. So I've been four times to Nigeria, and that's one influence on my practice.  But mostly I teach and guide non-dogmatic, inclusive, animist ancestor-focused ritual practice. The last two years or so I have shifted to training others, which has been really satisfying after years of doing more public-facing ritual, I'm now ... I do some of that but mostly I'm training other people in how to guide the work. And I have developed a specialization in repair work with blood lineage ancestors. But I also operate from a broader animist or earth-honoring framework that isn't limited to just that. So. And I'm a dad, I'm a, you know, married, and love the earth here, and live in the American South, which is kind of strange, but also okay. Yeah.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. That's awesome.  DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: So, I mean, I guess, my first question for you is, when did you start feeling the ancestral stuff calling you?  DANIEL: Well, my own lineages are German, English, Irish, early settler colonialist to North America, and so I didn't inherit any religious or spiritual framework or culture that was of value to me in any conscious way as a young person. And so, my first teachers in shamanic practice, Bekki and Crow with the Church of Earth Healing, in the late 90s, nudged me to get to know my ancestors ritually. And it was really impactful, actually. I was surprised by it. I'd never thought about them really before that. And I ended up assisting with an older ancestral guide or teacher, my father's father who had taken his own life, and just showing up for that work, which was powerful.  And it was a catalyst for me to research, do a lot of depth genealogy research about my own family history, and that dovetailed in with my training as a therapist, so I was in a period of connecting a lot of dots and valuing my own heritage, and, in a grounding way ... Not in like some awkward, go white people way, but in a way that helped me to reclaim what is beautiful about European, you know, northern western European cultures, and ... including earlier pre-Roman, pre-Christian magics and lineages. And so, I ran with that ritually. And have guided 120 maybe, multi-day, ancestor healing intensives since 2005 in that work, so I spent about six or seven years getting grounded with all of it myself. Then started to help other people with it. And it just organically developed as a specialization. And I tend to be a little obsessive about a thing, when I'm into it. I'll do that like crazy, until it's ... yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think ... I mean, I think it's interesting how ... Cause I do a lot of ancestral work as well, you know ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: I do ancestral divination work and, you know, ancestral sort of healing and lineage healing and so on.  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, I've been teaching it with my friend Carrie, we have this, we developed this system of people working with charm casting as a tool ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: To get into that work. And, you know, we've been traveling around and teaching it everywhere. We were in China last year teaching it, and stuff like that, with people ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: You know, I think that the thing that sort of stands out in your story, that I think stands out everywhere, is so often, like the last little bit, you know, the last few generations, it's kind of wonky, or like there's not a lot, there's not a lot of connection or living connection. Even, you know, it wasn't until last year that I found out that my grandmother read tea leaves when she was alive ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And she's been gone for like 12 years, and it just never came up before. She never talked about it, and my mom just never brought it up. Not for any particular reason but it just, it just was never a thing. Even though that's the same grandmother who bought me a tarot deck when I was like 13, long ago.  DANIEL: Right. Of course she did.  ANDREW: But I would have talked about it, right? But how ... Often when you kind of go back, you know, a few generations or somewhere a bit deeper, you know, there are these sort of more ... evolved isn't the word that I super like, but you know, like, more grounded, more helpful, you know, ancestors with a, with a sort of more capacity to be really guides and assist you in this process, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, often. It ... Where those cut-offs happen varies so widely from one demographic or even one individual to another, and I know in a lot of my own lineages, it's been over 1,000 years since anyone during life had a culturally reinforced and supported framework for honoring the ancestors. And so the older ones, the ones even before that, are quite available. So it's not ... I mean I could ... reinforce some kind of orphan victim culturally-damaged white person narrative, but it's not that sexy or useful, and so at a certain point, you're just like, well, you pick up the pieces where they're at, and get the fire going again.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And the older ancestors are happy to do that. And so even if someone comes from a really recently and before that culturally fragmented set of lineages, the ancestors are still available, the older ones, and the main repair orientation or practice that I encourage people to try on at first is to partner with those older ancestors and with them, assist any of the dead who are not yet well, any of the ones between those older ones and the present, who are not yet really well-seated, really vibrant. Help them to become well-seated ancestors. So the dead change. It's very important for us living folks to not fix them in some static condition.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Just cause people were a pain in the ass or really, you know, culturally in the weeds during life doesn't mean they're doomed to that condition forever. They can really change and become, not only, like, not ghosty, but they can become dynamic, engaged, useful allies for cultural healing work in the present.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So. ANDREW: Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's a misconception that a lot of people have that they automatically change on crossing over. DANIEL: Oh, sure, yeah, that's different. (laughing) ANDREW: And then the other side of that is, you know, they can change, but it might take a bunch of work, even if they did change, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, totally. Yeah, both, both are true. Yeah. The idea that just dying makes you wise and loving and kind is really hazardous actually, as a world view. So. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: Cause it'll lead to a view of ... I've seen it at times in pagan circles as well, where it's “Oh, the ancestors, ancestors are good, let's invoke them all. Okay, here are all the names of my ancestors, and the pictures, and let me light a candle and strongly invoke all of them.” ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Well, I hope your invocation doesn't work. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Because if it does, you're going to get a mixed bag! Cause your people are, you know, if they're well, awesome, but if they're not yet well, and your invocation works, then what you have is some not yet well ghosty energy in your space.  ANDREW: For sure, right? And some of those spirits can be pretty tumultuous, you know, if they're ... DANIEL: Oh, no doubt. Yeah. ANDREW: [crosstalking 09:53] here. I have one grandfather that I continue to work with who, sort of, work on, let's put it [laughing].  DANIEL: Right.  ANDREW: It's been a long time and they're still not ready to be, you know, front and center in anything, cause they just, so caught up in so much deep, deep trauma in their own life and in their generations before them, and, you know. DANIEL: One of, one of the things that I don't, I won't say it's unique to how I approach it, but it's emphasized in how I approach ancestor work, which isn't across the board, is I take a very lineage-based approach. Like I don't even really encourage, necessarily, relating with individual ancestors that much. ANDREW: Hmm. DANIEL: So in the case of someone, not to speak to your specific case necessarily, but let's say someone's grandmother is really quite entrenched in the unwell ghosty range of wellness. My strategy is to make sure that her mother and her mother and her mother and her mother and the lineage of women before them on back through time to the ancient weird witchy deity-like grandmothers, that that whole lineage is deeply well, and the repair happens from the older ones toward the present. And so, once you have the parent of the one who is quite troubled in a deeply well condition, and the whole lineage before them deeply well, as a group energy, asking them to intervene to address the rowdy ghosty grandparent tends to be ... It can ... Well, it can be more effective, simply because there's a re-anchoring of the rogue individuality in a bigger system, in a collective energy.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And there's a respect for seniority or hierarchy, by having that person's elders be the ones to round them up. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: So, so that's. I shared that because in the West, generally, I find that people tend to conceive of ancestor reverence primarily as a relating of one individual to another individual, and, and some of the lineage or group level aspects of it can get lost, or they're not as emphasized. And so I find that's an important nuance to include, and then another is, and we've spoken to it, is just the way in which one's ancestors are not at all just the remembered dead, the ones, the recent ones, but they include ... The vast majority of them are living before remembered names. And that's helpful for people who are like, my family are abusive trolls. I'm like, okay, I believe you, but I think what you mean to say is all the generations you know about, which is probably not more than two or three. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so, it's like, you're at the ocean, at a windy, cloudy day, and you're saying, “Oh, the ocean is tumultuous,” well, I believe it is, right there at the beach. But the ocean's a big place, yeah. So expanding our frame for who we mean when we say ancestor is gonna be helpful too. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah, and there's lots of times when, you know, we'll make offerings or do work with all of those ancestors, right? With the Egun, right, with everybody? Right? DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: You know? And in those ways and so on, right? Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting how ... It'd really be interesting to make sure that you're looking at those things. And some of my, some of my best ancestral allies have been gone, you know, three, four hundred years, right?  DANIEL: For sure. ANDREW: Or longer.  DANIEL: Yeah, totally, yeah. ANDREW: They arrive, and they're just like, “Yes! You're the beacon of light amongst all of these things, and let's radiate that out to everybody afterwards and anchor further and deeper,” right?  DANIEL: Yeah. For sure. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, when you're doing work with people, are you mostly focused on ... you know, because a lot of people come to ancestor work because they want to get messages and receive stuff and do ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: ...[inaudible at 13:59] kind of stuff, right? I mean, I think that that can be fruitful, too, I enjoy that kind of work as well, but that's not really what we're talking about here either, right? I mean not explicitly, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. If we say like, what's the point? It can ... There are a lot of different motivations that can drive someone to want to engage their ancestors. The most common one is, “I'm suffering, will this help?”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That's legit. Sometimes it will help indirectly. Sometimes it will help directly because the source of the suffering is unmetabolized intergenerational trouble that's directly connected to ancestral interference, and so sometimes it, you know, it can help in different ways.  Another motivator for the work is seeking life guidance, cause the ancestors have insight into our unique destiny, and can help us to move into closer alignment with that, you know, our unique instructions or soul level work in the world.  As you know, in Yoruba culture, we sometimes talk about the world as the marketplace and Orun or the spirit world as home, and, and so if you forget your shopping list, working with the ancestors can be like, “Let us show you, you said this, this, this, and this,” and be like, “Oh, yeah, okay, thanks,” and so that's helpful to not waste our lives.  And ancestors can be great for being a resource to parents or supporters in family, like they're especially good with all the family sphere, the domestic sphere, like being a responsible family human. And they're also good allies for cultural healing. A lot of the racism and colonialism and sexism and other kinds of cultural toxicity and garbage and bad capitalism that we're stewed in and trying to get out from underneath and help transform ... Those are ancestor, those are troubles created by the ancestors. Like, they're implicated in the trouble. And so they have, appropriately, a hand in resolving the trouble as well.  And so they're great allies, by whatever form, activism, cultural change, all that. And so I really think that working closely with one's ancestors helps cultural change-makers to up their game, so to speak. So that's another motivation.  And this is, I guess it's related to the one about destiny, but, inspired a bit from the Yoruba frameworks. The collective energy or wisdom of the ancestors is associated strongly with the Earth. Like the onile, the earth is like the calabash that holds the souls of the dead. And because the Earth is associated with accountability and, you know, moral authority, and is the witness through of all interactions, in that way also the ancestors carry that same quality of accountability. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And I think whether or not people can consciously own it, some part of us craves accountability. Like we want to be seen and checked when needed. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: There's something really like ... our daughter almost made it to the top of the steps. Like, the door was open the other day. She's nine months old. But we caught her. It was good. It was way better than had we not held her in that moment.  ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And there's a way in which that kind of love and connectivity is like, “Oh, I'm not alone in the universe.”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: If I crawl to the top of the steps, someone will pick me up. So we want that, and the ancestors bring that, as well, when we live with them.  ANDREW: I think it's a, I think it's a thing that, especially, you know, in my experience, people, in Western culture, struggle with too, right? This sort of willingness to acknowledge an authority or an awareness or a position that's sort of above them in a way that they can allow in to say, “You know what, actually, we do know what's better for you in this moment.”  DANIEL: [laughing] Oh, yeah, it's- ANDREW: You what, my friends, you know, going down that road has nothing to do with your destiny, or what have you, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah! [laughing] ANDREW: Here's your fault in this mess that you're trying to put on this other person, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah, no, people, look, I'm a teacher, also, and so often it's great and fine, and sometimes people are idealizing in awkward ways, and like, oh, don't do that, don't do that. But, but just whatever, fine, it's fine, it tends to burn out and even out. And also sometimes people are really just not okay with anything resembling a power differential or a student teacher relationship.  ANDREW: Right. DANIEL: And it's ... It's tiring a little, as a teacher. Because there is a difference between telling someone just what to do in an authoritative way, and also saying, like, “Well, do you want to learn a thing? Because I know this skill. Like, what do you ... do you want to tell me how it goes, cause ... ?” So, so yeah, it is ... I think it's a function of power so often being abused, that people understandably have mistrust.  ANDREW: Yup!  DANIEL: Yeah. So I have compassion for it, and also the piece around hierarchy and authority is really, is challenging. In the coming months, some dear friends are going to Nigeria to do initiations and I was talking to them last night, and I was like, in the nicest possible way, “Really, your main job as the initiate is to obey.” ANDREW: Yes. DANIEL: Just to, like, the ritual is done to you, nobody really cares what you think about it. And it's totally fine.  ANDREW: Stand here, stand there, [crosstalking 19:59]. DANIEL: Right! Yeah, totally, sit down, drink it, sit, eat it, say thank you. Like ... ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah. Like you're the thing being consecrated. Your input is not needed.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Nothing personal. Next time you go back, then you can have an opinion.  ANDREW: Yeah. And even then-- DANIEL: And even then, so you get one small vote. [laughing] Yeah.  ANDREW: No, for sure. Yeah, let's see what people who ... I mean come for readings of all kinds, but you know, people who approach, you know, getting dillogun readings and stuff like that, and you know, the Orishas come through, and they're like, “Oh, you know what? Don't drink this year, don't, you know, whatever. Don't get tattooed. Don't, you know, no, no red beans for you.” They're like, “Well, what do you mean? I don't understand.” It's like, “Well...” [crosstalking 20:52] DANIEL: Obey! [laughing] ANDREW: What is the understanding? I mean, in a lot of that situation ... in some of those situations, the understanding is more obvious, right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: I had a conversation with a person who'd say, “Well, it seems like you kind of have this kind of challenge, and this is kind of the thing that might counter that,” and they're like, “Okay, yeah, maybe.” But other times it's just energetic or on other levels that it's just like, you know, it's kind of the ... It's an equivalent of saying “Hey, carry this citrine with you for the next year, it's going to help your energy,” but it's in a different structure that people don't relate to in the same way, right?  DANIEL: For sure, yeah.  ANDREW: And then they're like, “But, but, I don't want to be told what to do!” I'm like, “What else are you gonna do?” DANIEL: You just paid me to do that.  ANDREW: Yeah, you asked, right?  DANIEL: [laughing] ANDREW: You didn't have to, I wouldn't worry about it ... DANIEL: But some part of us does, some part of us really, I think wants to be told what to do. And that could go awry, and I'm not saying it's an entirely healthy impulse, but there's something about accountability and structure and community and limits, that's actually really intimate. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And if you can't hear and accept “no,” your “yes” is meaningless.  ANDREW: Mm. DANIEL: And so there's something that's precious and sweet about protocol and tradition and about structure.  ANDREW: I also think that a lot of people don't really ... Faith is a really complicated and difficult thing for a lot of people too, you know?  DANIEL: Mm.  ANDREW: And especially when entering a new tradition, you know? And, and I think that part of what we're talking about here is also a matter of faith, right? What is your faith in the ancestors or the Orisha or whatever, and how, how do you sustain that faith through being deeply challenged by all that stuff?  DANIEL: Yeah, and for me, look, I was involved with different Orisha teachers in the States, American, for the most part, and ... it didn't work out that well, for the most part. I mean, complicated. But I ... I felt like there was a lot of restrictive and unhealthy and kind of confused energy around it. And I had an opportunity to go to Nigeria to reset some of the initiation-like things that had happened here, so I took a risk on it, and I'm like, “Well, this is either gonna be like the final straw, or some breakthrough,” like, “let's pray for the latter.” And I saw kind of a non-dogmatic group community like, in my Ifá initiation, there were men aged like 80 to five, holding space. Like, and 20, 30 people there. And people were teasing each other, playing, and having a good time. Like the people were well human beings, they seemed happy. And so that relaxed, teasing heart aware energy. I'm like, “Oh, good, this is what I was looking for.” And it helped ... For me, it helped me to trust, and just not fight the system. I'm like, “Just tell me what to do.” Just okay, “eat the pig dung,” okay, “Leave me a bite,” or whatever. Whatever it is. Just tell me what to do. So.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah, it's great.  ANDREW: I used to, you know, get some people who would bring their, you know, like, elderly, Cuban elders to the store. You know? And pick up stuff. DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: You know, they're here in Toronto to do a thing, and they'd bring this person to the store, right? And you know my Spanish is not great [laughing] and their English was not great, and we'd like, know some like, Yoruban words in common or whatever. And you would see how sweet and genuine and nice they were. And then they'd notice that like, you know, I've got plants growing at the front of the store for working with religion, and they'd be like, “oh, alamo,” I'd be like, “yeah, yeah,” and we'd have this like sort of pidgin conversation and a bunch of other things, and mostly what it would be is our hearts being opened, all this sharing of our love of this religion and these spirits ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And the continuity of that. And it was such a beautiful and uplifting experience, even though there wasn't a lot of words that were associated with it. There was just so much communication happening at other levels, and you could, you know, I could feel my Shango just being happy about it, you know, be like whoever there, too, just being happy about it, and so on. You know? It's so uplifting in that way, right? But ... DANIEL: That's good. It's one of the things in, you know, we had mentioned in our previous chat about my talk on practicing the traditions of other people's ancestors. And-- ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: I respect it a lot about the necessary and important dialogues around cultural appropriation, and especially, not only, but especially around respecting different Native North American or First Nations, as you say, traditions, and being mindful of what the conditions of involvement, if that's open, to non-Native people are, etc., and what's important to understand is those same parameters are not universal, and how cultures are shared and understood from one part of the world to another really vary.  And Yoruba culture, for example, is generally an open system. Yoruba people in my experience, in Yorubaland, have never had anyone feel off about me being there and training in Orisha, except for the Christians, who were like, “Why don't you want Jesu?” I'm like, “We have Jesu where I'm at,” it's like, “It's fine, like, go Jesu!” but it's not why I'm here. And one of the things that is important though, is, it's family, like you're stepping into a family, a spiritual family. It's not like a “Hey bro, thanks for the culture, now I'm gonna go back and set up shop, I got what I need.” There's a ... And so when your teachers hit you up for money, it's family. That's what like, you can't be part of a family and have a bunch of stuff, and then other people don't have something, and you don't share it.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: And so it's ... It's not like you're getting exploited. I mean, that also happens. But just the ethic of sharing and supporting one another. If people don't want that, then they might not want to get involved. because most indigenous systems that I know of that are open to people not of that blood ancestry hold things in a family-oriented way. There's intimacy with that, but there's also connectivity, reciprocity, accountability. Yeah.  ANDREW: And, you know, so, you know, my immediate family where I was initiated lives in the Detroit area, and my, you know, my elders are in Miami, you know, and like, but like, especially when the Detroit folks are doing work, you know, especially bigger things like making priests, you know, I always show up, like, you know, it's like you, when they're doing the work, and you're like, “Oh, it's so inconvenient for me to take four or five days off and go down there and help out, right?” And it's like, yeah, it's inconvenient, and you know, it's time off work, and it's whatever, but it's what those people did for me, right? And it's what allows all of that to continue, and it's a chance to, you know, to also sustain those connections, and you know, sing together, and sit and joke together, and, you know, complain about handling the ... cleaning up after the animals together, and whatever, it's just part of it, right? Like ... DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And in the absence of being willing to engage that community element of it, right? It's pretty ... If you don't have the community element in one way or another, especially in the Orisha tradition, you don't really have much of anything, you know?  DANIEL: It's true, with the tradition, it in my experience is very communal, and there are a lot of ritual domains of activity you just can't pull off solo.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: And it's just that, you know, it's a lot of hard work, it's heavy lifting. And for people who have worked with psychoactives, there's a certain kind of feeling among the group after a long, successful, like all night acid trip, when the sun's coming up, you're sort of like, “Oh, we've just gone through something together.”  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: And, and, minus the LSD, there can be a sense after a multi-day ritual of a strong sense of magic and beauty and intimacy that's shared through all the effort and all the devotion ...  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: That it takes to keep old lineages of practice alive.  ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: For sure. And I think it's, I mean, one of the other points that I think was super important ... It's been a while since I listened to that talk and we'll link to it in the show notes, cause it was a good talk. Folks should go back and listen to it. You know, is also the fact that these are living traditions, right? They have continuity. DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: And, you know, but there's a big difference between, hey, we're gonna call up some Greek deities and see what happens, you know, and, like, or you know, see what happens sounds dismissive, I don't mean it in that way. And you know, there's nobody, there's no continuity to ancient Greece, in that particular way, versus there are people who've been practicing these traditions from person to person to person, all the way through until now, and you can actually go and ask those people and they can answer you as to what's done and how it's done and why it's done. DANIEL: Yeah. No, it's true. People don't ... If they don't know something, would be in the habit of divining on it, but I wouldn't want someone to, like, not go to flight school and then divine on how to fly the plane. [crosstalking] Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah. There's that great proverb, which I'm sure you know, which is “Don't ask what you already know,” right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: And I think that there's a sort of choleric glory to that which is, you know, there are things you just shouldn't ask, cause you should already know them, right?  DANIEL: Right. ANDREW: You don't need to ask if we do this thing because we know we don't. You know? DANIEL: Yeah.  ANDREW: We know that Oshun won't take this as an offering. We know that we don't do this kind of thing. We know that, like, you know, you don't ask if you could rob a bank cause the answer's already no. You know? DANIEL: Right. And there's a beautiful essay [inaudible 31:07] by Ologo Magiev [31:09], a child being asked to divine, and their parents died young and so they didn't get the information. And so they invoke their ancestors, and bring a lot of humility, and wing it, and it turns out fine. And, and I think there's also this kind of an implicit message, “And don't do that again. Don't pull that card too many times.”  ANDREW: Right?  DANIEL: [laughing] Then go train! ANDREW: For sure, right?  DANIEL: So, it's both. The deities have kindness, and benevolence, and also, careful! ANDREW: Yeah. And, you know, I was traveling, and I got a call that a friend of mine was like at death's door in the hospital, basically, right? And, you know, and I was just literally at a rest stop getting, gassing up the car when I checked my phone in the middle of New York State, right?  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And I was just like, all right. And so I went and, you know, kind of looked around for some stuff, and it's like, there's nothing, like I can't, there's nothing I could really sort of put together here, so I just collected a bunch of white flowers and, you know, it's really hilly, right, so I just took them to a spot that I thought was appropriate for Obatala ... DANIEL: Mm-hmm.  ANDREW: And I was like, Obatala, this is all I have today. I'm here, it's this situation, and I need you to accept these and intercede in the situation. And you can get away with that. But that's not practicing the tradition. And that's not gonna, as you say, it's not gonna fly all the time, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. ANDREW: When you're at home, you can do all sorts of other things, you have your shrines or your ancestors or wherever you're working with, right? They will accept these things, cause they do understand circumstance and they're not tyrannical about it, right? They just say, you don't want that to be your way of practicing forever.  DANIEL: I spent years like, I don't know, not quite 20 years, not involved in a really dedicated way in one set tradition. I was training with different traditions for a period of time, and would definitely learn stuff, and would develop my own ashe [33:20] or whatever, but I wasn't like embracing one fully, as an operating system. ANDREW: Yeah. DANIEL: But I learned that it's possible to do it that way. That was actually really helpful to me. That it's possible to go deep with one's own ancestors, to go deep with the spirits of the land, where you're at. ANDREW: Sure. DANIEL: And to get to know them, and to get clarity about your own destiny and to just constellate in the different powers and forces and spirits that are gonna help you to do that. And I also ... that there's loneliness in going it solo, as well. There's like a freedom and a loneliness, both. And it drove me eventually to ... You know, I spent almost ten years involved in Orisha practice and Yoruba ways before I decided to initiate. And it's like a long slow dating process. It wasn't a lot of charisma. It was like, oh, you're the last one left standing, and ... ANDREW: [laughing] DANIEL: We have a ton of compatibility, why are we not doing this? And I go, okay, I guess we're gonna do this. So we just had the high match on the dating, you know, religious dating profile website. So I'm like, oh, maybe we should try this. And, and I haven't regretted it at all. It's very ... It's been a relief. The sense for me is of being held in a bigger frame. And it's not really ... It's not what I teach publicly, I'm not publicly offering services in that way, even though there are certain ones I could, in integrity.  I'm still in training, I'm still trying to learn Yoruba language, and especially with a west African orientation of practice it's such an aural language-based tradition, especially Ifá practice in particular, so I'm trying to hold a ... I think if you're not ancestrally of a tradition, the standards are even a bit higher for you to get it right, which I think is fair and understandable. Especially with the cultural climate of racism in the west and all that, for European ancestor people to be doing west African Ifa, you need to not look like a fool doing it, and so part of that looks like studying the language and really, you know, taking to heart the training.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. DANIEL: But, it's possible to go really deep without stepping into a tradition. And there are a lot of ritual advantages to having a system to work from, as well. So I appreciate both sides of that. Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I think you can get there ... I think you can accomplish the same ends either way, right?  DANIEL: Yeah, yeah. ANDREW: I think that where it gets, where it gets touchy is where you're solely working independently, but within the set of spirits that has a living tradition. If you're only working independently and devoid of traditional teaching, you know, that's where it starts to become a question for me of what ... DANIEL: Well, yeah, no, if the main powers you're working with are the Orisha, it's like, well, you've got to, here's the front door. You can try crawling in the window, but it's going to go badly, so.  ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: Yeah. But if you're just working with the weird old land gods and your own ancestors, you can get away with it. yeah.  ANDREW: For sure.  DANIEL: Yeah, for sure.  ANDREW: Yeah. I also like the weird old land gods. You know? There's this beautiful ravine, you know, about a two-minute walk from the shop, [crosstalking 36:45] in Toronto. It runs through and you know, under there, there's sort of part of a buried river, that was once upon a time up on the surface, and all sorts of stuff, and there's wonderful and magical energies that are there, and really fascinating things have happened in that space over time. You know? Like I was ... I was there making a ... dealing with something and helping somebody, and making an offering essentially to the spirit of that place in the snow, right? And then when I came out of sort of the wood part back onto the path, all of these moths emerged, these white moths. And I'm like, there's snow on the ground, and it's snowing right now, what is going on with these things? And I'm like, all right, I'll take it. Big old yes from the spirits of this place on that thing, you know?  DANIEL: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: So I mean yeah, there's some amazing stuff that can happen in those ways, for sure.  DANIEL: Nice. Yeah.  ANDREW: So, I mean, first thing is, I'm going to ask you now if people should, if they're listening to this, and they want to think about starting a, you know, where they should start? And I know that one of the answers is definitely, they should go read your book, cause your book is great. DANIEL: Sure. ANDREW: But like, for the context of our conversation today, where would you kind of point people? Where, where do you point people [inaudible 38:02]? DANIEL: I'm not a very trusting person, really. So, if I were to listen to this conversation, and I didn't know that I'm a good person, I would go to my website, which is ancestralmedicine.org. Root around there, see what the vibe is, and there are other talks, or whatever, and see if you, you know, get an instinctual, this guy's not crazy vibe from where I'm coming from, and if you're drawn to the ancestral work, there are three main ways to engage.  One is to connect with one of the practitioners in the directory there. And there are 30 some people at this point who are trained in the work. Men, women, all different genders of people [38:43--not sure I've got his exact words here], ancestrally diverse people, lots of different opportunities for low income sessions, sessions in seven languages, so, opportunities to connect with people directly for session work. That's the most efficient way. Another is that I offer an online course that starts in December, that's thorough, and it maps along the heart of the book, chapters 5 through 9, which is lineage repair work, and there's a lot of support throughout that course, so that's an option, and I'll also be offering a course through the Shift network in the fall.  And then, a third way is the in-person trainings. And the last one I'm going to guide probably in North America will be in just over a week in Ottawa, the 24th to the 26th, and there's a talk on August 22, next Wednesday, in Ottawa as well, and all the info on that is on my site, and additionally, to that, there are trainings in maybe ten cities and also coming up in Australia and Mexico and maybe Russia and Canada and Victoria, so. And those are done by students who I trust to guide the work. So in person work, online course, or sessions, are, in addition to the book, the three main ways to plug in. Yeah.  ANDREW: Perfect.  DANIEL: And, and, you know, like just to say it, if you're wary of people, which is warranted, this approach to the work doesn't involve the practitioners or me or anybody saying, “Hey, this is what your grandmother says to you.” It's about stepping the individual through a process of reclaiming and re-energizing their ability to connect directly with their own people. So, it's an empowering approach in that way. It's not somebody getting all up in the mix and channeling messages to your people. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just not this approach, so. And especially if your family's a mess, it's useful to do ancestor work. Cause you get some space from all that, and connect with what's beautiful and trustworthy in your own blood and bone lineages. So that's grounding, it's helpful, also for the cultural healing that's needed.  ANDREW: Yes. Well and I think it can be quite liberating, you know, because we're carrying those patterns, right?  DANIEL: Oh, yeah. So you can relate consciously or unconsciously with your people, but you don't get to opt out of relatedness. Yeah. ANDREW: Exactly, right? And if we can tidy those up and take some of that burden off of us or free ourselves from that, right? Then we get to show up much differently in that way, right?  DANIEL: Yeah. I think the masquerades in Yoruba culture, Egungun, and it's a blessing when they come around, but it's also a lot of people try not to be touched by them. And so there's ... It conveys something about the ancestors, like, they're dangerous to avoid and they're dangerous to have around. ANDREW: Yeah.  DANIEL: But, whatever, it's just like living humans. [laughing] ANDREW: For sure. People are challenged on both sides of the veil, right?  DANIEL: [laughing] Yeah, exactly.  ANDREW: For sure.  DANIEL: So, good.  ANDREW: Well, thank you so much for making time today, Daniel. It's been great to hang out and chat with you.  DANIEL: For sure, thanks, Andrew, thanks for your service, here. Blessings on everything you're up to. ANDREW: Thank you. DANIEL: Yeah. Good.   

In today's podcast, Daniel talks with Hana about her trip to Greece. Go to elllo.org for the complete lesson for this audio. Transcript of Conversation | elllo.org | #1259 Greek Vacation Daniel: So we're talking about holidays. Is there any really, really good holidays that you remember? Hana: Well, one of my favourite holidays was when I went to Greece a couple of years ago with my family. Daniel: Wow, Greece, I've never been there. How is it? Sounds really, really nice. Hana: Greece is a very beautiful country. The houses are ... everything is so white and the beaches are so beautiful. Daniel: So what did you do in Greece? Hana: Mainly I just relaxed at the swimming pool and at the beaches. And at night time I went shopping with my mum. And we had some really nice food too. Daniel: Oh, that sounds really interesting, like the perfect holidays. So you said you went with your family, right? Hana: Yes, I went with my mum and dad and brother. Daniel: And for how long did you go there? Hana: We went for four days. And when we went there was a big football tournament. And so everybody was so happy and excited. And at night times everybody will start dancing. And so me and my brother, we would join and dance with them. Daniel: Cool! So did you get to see any of those matches of the tournament? Hana: Yes, I went to see one match with my dad and I had so much fun. Daniel: Oh, it sounds really cool, like really nice holidays. Hana: Yes, it was one of my best holidays. elllo.org