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Thank you for joining us for our 2nd Cabral HouseCall of the weekend! I'm looking forward to sharing with you some of our community's questions that have come in over the past few weeks…   Kay: Hi Dr. Cabral, About a year ago, before I discovered you and your podcasts, my husband and I invested in a $4000 Tempurpedic mattress. I know that memory foam is generally synthetic and was wondering if you have recommendations to reduce any toxic effects? The instructions when we first received the mattress were to allow it to "air out" for a day, which we did. We now also sleep with an air filter in our bedroom. Any other suggestions or comments about Tempurpedic or memory foam mattresses in general? Thank you.                                                                                                                          Anonymous: Hi, this has been happening for a while & I am wondering what it means. When I wake up the inside of my nose stigns quite a lot. Sometimes it also happens during the day or it lasts throughout the day but mostly it's the worst as soon as I wake up. It's really annoying and then I usually rub my nose on the outside a lot until it subsides but it's so weird and I have no idea what it means. Please help!                                                                                                                                Lindsay: Hi Dr Cabral, I looked over your information already given on acid reflex. I have two questions. What are the long term effects of omeprazole. What is a natural alternative? Thank you, Lindsay                                                                               Anonymous: Hello Dr. C, I hope you're doing well. I wanted to reach out regarding an issue I've been experiencing. I have noticed an increase in heart rate after consuming alcohol. I never had any issues with occasional drinking prior. However, since having my first child and taking nearly two years off from alcohol, I now experience a racing heart whenever I drink. I've tried staying well-hydrated beforehand, but the issue persists. I have done a FM detox + Parasite detox in this 2 year period as well. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what might be causing this change, especially since it wasn't a problem in the past. Could it be a histamine issue or an overflowing rain barrel still?                                       Jennifer: Thank you for all you do, Dr. Cabral! Your energy and drive inspire me! My Dad has to take Warfarin to thin his blood. What may be root causes for thickening of the blood? Where do I start?   Thank you for tuning into this weekend's Cabral HouseCalls and be sure to check back tomorrow for our Mindset & Motivation Monday show to get your week started off right! - - - Show Notes and Resources: StephenCabral.com/3341 - - - Get a FREE Copy of Dr. Cabral's Book: The Rain Barrel Effect - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: CabralSupportGroup.com - - - Dr. Cabral's Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Complete Minerals & Metals Test (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Complete Candida, Metabolic & Vitamins Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Complete Stress, Mood & Metabolism Test (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Complete Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Complete Omega-3 & Inflammation Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - Get Your Question Answered On An Upcoming HouseCall: StephenCabral.com/askcabral - - - Would You Take 30 Seconds To Rate & Review The Cabral Concept? The best way to help me spread our mission of true natural health is to pass on the good word, and I read and appreciate every review!  

Welcome back to our weekend Cabral HouseCall shows! This is where we answer our community's wellness, weight loss, and anti-aging questions to help people get back on track! Check out today's questions:    Amy: Hi Dr. Cabral. Recently, I was eating "healthy" ice cream and noticed an ingredient I am unfamiliar with, EPG. Its listed as a modified plant based oil and, upon a bit of research, I got the feeling this is another sneaky fat substitute that we might need to be aware of. Do you have any thoughts on this? Many thanks for everything you do in the health space :)     Jennifer: Thank you for all your help and knowledge. Is there a root cause, or a way to heal an overactive bladder and lost of bladder control?     Diego: Does the 21 day detox plan do away with heavy metals in our bodies? If not, what exactly will it remove?     Yvonne: SaltAir UV – Ultrasonic Air Salinizer - love being in salt air - my skin loves it, psoriasis basically disappears in this environment and better for breathing rather than the dry environment I live in - will this product help or would it be harmful indoors since typically salt air, although good for us, is harmful to our homes and cars due to corrosion, etc.?     Melissa: Hi Dr. Cabral - I recently took your food sensitivity test and had my coaching call but left with a couple questions still. I had a moderate sensitivity to egg whites and Brazil nuts and low sensitivity to pineapples and almonds. I was having eggs, almonds and Brazil nuts almost every day before the test. The reason I took this test is because my IgG levels have been very low since 2019 (could have always been low but this is when I first tested it). The coach said she couldn't tell me if my low IgG could be related to these sensitivities. I was hoping you could expand on this and provide some more insight into why this may or may not be correlated. Since they're both IgG related, I was hoping for a connection to maybe figure out why I have low levels (subclass 1, 2 & 4). Thanks!     Thank you for tuning into today's Cabral HouseCall and be sure to check back tomorrow where we answer more of our community's questions!    - - - Show Notes and Resources: StephenCabral.com/3158 - - - Get a FREE Copy of Dr. Cabral's Book: The Rain Barrel Effect - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: CabralSupportGroup.com - - - Dr. Cabral's Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Complete Minerals & Metals Test (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Complete Candida, Metabolic & Vitamins Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Complete Stress, Mood & Metabolism Test (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Complete Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Complete Omega-3 & Inflammation Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - Get Your Question Answered On An Upcoming HouseCall: StephenCabral.com/askcabral - - - Would You Take 30 Seconds To Rate & Review The Cabral Concept? The best way to help me spread our mission of true natural health is to pass on the good word, and I read and appreciate every review!  

We all love when our peers agree with us online, but could this be hurting our mindset and creativity? In this episode, I sit down with Jennifer Pearce to explore the perils of groupthink and the profound impact of mindset on success in the dental industry. We dive deep into how maintaining a healthy, critical approach is crucial for dentists, especially when transitioning from larger DSOs to private practice. Jennifer passionately discusses the dangers of groupthink, revealing how it can obstruct innovation and stunt personal growth.Through examples and insights from her coaching experience, Jennifer sheds light on the necessity of evolving one's mindset. Whether you're just starting in the field or looking to make a significant career change, this episode is packed with practical advice and thought-provoking ideas. Tune in to discover how critical thinking and self-awareness can become your greatest assets in navigating the complexities of a dental career.What You'll Learn in This Episode:What is groupthink, and how does it affect personal and professional growth?Why mindset is critical for success in dentistry, especially in private practice.How to transition from working in DSOs to establishing a private practice.The importance of critical thinking and self-awareness in overcoming industry challenges.Real-life examples and insights from Jennifer's coaching experiences.Practical tips for evolving your mindset at different stages of your dental career.Strategies to maintain an independent and creative approach in a collaborative environment.How to identify when you're falling into the groupthink trap.Let's get into our episode with Jennifer Pearce today and learn how to steer clear of groupthink!‍‍Sponsors:Studio 8E8: Dentistry's story-driven marketing agency. Traditional marketing repels. Story-first dental marketing attracts.We bring your story to life in a way that captivates and connects: https://s8e8.com/affiliates/tdm?utm_source=tdm&utm_medium=affiliate&wc_clear=true‍You can reach out to Jennifer Pearce here:Website: https://prosperitydentalsolutions.com/Email: jennifer@prosperitydentalsolutions.com‍Mentions and Links: Terms:Groupthink‍People:Travis Kelce‍Events:Super Bowl‍Football Teams:Dallas CowboysKansas City Chiefs‍Insurance Companies:MetLife‍Companies/Brands:American Airlines‍‍If you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)‍Michael: Hey, Jennifer. So talk to us. What's one piece of advice you can give us this Monday morning? Jennifer: Good morning. Um, the first thing I would like to say is group think is a powerful thing. It's also can be a very harmful thing and your mindset is pivotal. But how you establish that mindset is more pivotal, and this is why I bring up the subject of groupthink. Michael: Okay, so groupthink, and then you, one thing you mentioned is how you establish your mindset. First and foremost, how do we establish a good mindset? And what would be good? Jennifer: I don't think that you wake up one morning and say, I'm going to get a good mindset. I think it's an accumulation of experience. things that you do right, things that you do wrong.We all tend to learn more from things we do wrong. But I do feel that it needs to be, um, critical as to what you're trying to accomplish. Because. What I see a lot of today, and this is why I talk about groupthink, is, oh, I'm experiencing this. Let me go on social media or Google and Google what I'm facing and see what other people say or think about.current conundrum, problem, or whatever. And so when you're a dentist and you're raised in the critical thinking, genre in your schooling, that's great. But sometimes I feel like the critical thinking or the awareness of the mindset thinking gets a little bit muddy when we're looking for a solution to a problem.So this might seem a little like a vague answer and I don't mean it to be, but mindset is. It's not something you wake up one morning and say, okay, I'm going to do a through Z. And then I'm going to have a good mindset. It has tributaries. It has things that take you off of stream. And then you come back onto the stream and being in the ebbs and flows of your mindset, awareness, and growing sometimes for dentists being highly technical thinkers, this gets scary, muddy, um, overwhelming And that's part of it, too. It's part of the process. So I think mindset a little bit is an overused word or a misunderstood word, but your mindset and how to fix your business is pivotal. So let me give you an example, if I may. Michael: Yes. Jennifer: So when you're a new practitioner, you've decided I've come out of school and I'm going to go work at a DSO and I'm going to get some skills, whether it be becoming faster at your skills.better at your skills, whatever. your mindset at that time is knowledge acquisition, time inefficiency, learning how to be with a team, what you need from the team, those kinds of things. I coach some people, some doctors who have come DSO environment, go into a private environment, and it's not the same they've evolved.What they expect from their team could be different and they haven't done enough work on their mindset. They've mainly worked on their technical skill sets. So there's technical prowess, there's a mindset, and there's leadership. And all of these are pivotal pieces to your practice growth.If you decide to have one or your own, clinical growth. If you decide not to have a practice and be within a DSO environment. could be DSO. It could be ideas. So it could be a number of things. I use DSO. It's a very broad term for private. Versus corporate versus anything you do not own. Okay.So a lot of the doctors don't realize they have been put into a mindset and leadership, path or story. And sometimes they're not aware of that's what's happening. And they adopt some of that as their own. So this is where I say your mindset is very important because it's almost like you've been kind of in a cult and you may not know it.And then you come out of the cold and you decide I'm going to open a practice or I'm going to do this. Your mindset has to be your path. Your mindset has to be where you take it. It becomes your vision. It becomes your, your style of business. I often say with mindset, I'm from Texas, so pardon my frankness, but if you do not choose your saddle, your saddle will choose you.Michael: And it may not be a good saddle for you. So people choose to go into different business models within dentistry for whatever reason. There's, so many reasons we can give for why people choose. But. the mindset that got you there when you choose whatever you choose. And then the mindset that takes you along your career, five years, 10 years, 15 years in has to evolve because what got you the first five years won't get you to the next five years.Jennifer: What got you through the first 10 years may not get you through the next 10 years. Um, because I probably am not telling anybody anything they don't know, but we are in what I consider to tonic shifts in dentistry. which I've been in for 30 years. So over the last, I would say 12 years, I've seen tectonic shifts, whether it be from technical disruptions, team disruptions, COVID, you know, incidents, which has changed us all.So, mindset is something that has to always be, brought to awareness and, challenged with inquisition of what you really want, not just challenging, just to challenge. Yeah. Michael: Yeah. Cause I feel like, well, then let me know, Jennifer, when it comes to mindset, let's just say we come out of a DSO.This happens a lot, right? We come out of a DSO, we enter into a private practice, then we start liking the private practice. Oh my God, the doctor was amazing. I love the way she works and everything, but it's time for me to open up my own practice. Right. And so they open it up. They take systems from the private practice.They take some things they like from the DSO, but they hated it. They're like, I hated the, the non. You know, we were like a drill and fill and get out kind of thing. Right. And so where is it with the doctor who's opening up the practice where they're like, all of this is mine, my mindset, or is it okay enough for us to kind of take pieces of stuff that we like and things like that.But maybe later on, we never questioned it. And then we're like, I never really liked that. I, it just worked to make money kind of thing. And I guess. Jennifer: It's called the status quo. I coached two practitioners right now that did just that. They were very successful in a DSM environment.And so yes, event, they knew eventually they were going to have their own. That's no big secret. It's something that happens, right? But they love the, the systemization. Yes. Of what they had at the DSO. And they were then in this illusion and bubble of what the DSO had created as far as the continuity of how things went, whatever leadership had been established.They may have liked pieces of the leadership as a doctor, but not the other pieces. Michael: You Jennifer: know, there's so many little intricacies to this conversation about that, but they never realize. The stress. The amount of personal time everything's going to take till they buy it. And then, uh, one that I have been coaching now for a year and a half, but unbeknownst to her, a dumpster fire, she did not know what she bought because.A lawyer told her it was okay and a broker told her it was okay, but she never really looked the business itself and in got in the practice management software and all those kinds of things. So, and many times she has said to me, I was really good at this and a DSO environment, but in this environment, it's completely different.And I said, so yeah, we've got to work on. Your mindset towards now that you own it, your leadership style. Now that you own it, which systems did you like? Which systems did you not like? Let's make this saddle fit your ass. you now own the saddle, you own the horse, you own it all. and they just don't realize it's like anything else.None of us realize till we jump into something. And then we're like, wow, I can't swim this fast or chew this fast. What do I do? How do I get it? Right. And I think the hard thing for all this is then we're talking to somebody who now has a husband or a wife. and children and life and those things may not have been part of the stressors to begin with, right?So your mindset towards what gets your attention at what times and then focusing that attention, um, cause usually dentists, as you know, and it's no big secret that they're technical. they're the technical tinkers. They want to work with their hands and all that stuff. So. Michael: Interesting.Okay. So internet show group think Jennifer: yeah Michael: is powerful. You said, but horrible sometimes. Jennifer: Yes Michael: In the sense of when can it start becoming horrible for someone? Jennifer: So I'll see something being said. let's just talk about, you know, on Facebook because it's something everybody understands, right? And you'll be in a group and there'll be, you know, a doctor will state something and then 60, 70, 500 comments come along with other doctors and it's.Same, same, same, same, same. Michael: Yeah. Jennifer: So, one of the things that I really work individually with people on is standing in your rightness. R I G H T N E S S. But when you get a hundred things of agree, agree, agree, agree, and you realize there's, there could be some nuances to that answer, not judgment or this is wrong, whatever.Um, you realize they're all group. Think group. Think feels comfortable group. Things feels vindicating group. Think feels, Oh, I must be right. If I can just get everybody else to listen to me. My pain will stop and no, you're all actually maybe only a skosh wrong, but you're wrong, you know, in how maybe you're leading or how you're trying to get something to be accomplished or whatever, which then over time leads to status quo, where they just.Pull back. And they just say, this is too hard. I pay my team. They're doing okay. We're doing okay. I want to be with my wife and children or my husband and my children. This is okay. This is enough. This is, this is what dentistry was for a very long time. You know, it was a cottage industry business. and the dentist would show up to do his or her work, tinker.Michael: Yeah. Jennifer: They'll go home. Now we have more entrepreneurial based dentists. We have more competition. We have the insurance derivatives. DSOs, you know, different models. And so it's like a pressure cooker now. And I think the pressure cooker. gives groupthink a place to go and kind of hang out for a minute and yeah, yeah, yeah. So funny share. Okay. Michael: Yeah. Jennifer: I love football. I'm from Texas. I'm a football girl. If I could buy the Dallas Cowboys and flip that team, I would. Okay. So watching the super bowl, most people tend to watch the super bowl. So it tends to be a good bonding discussion. And Travis. Kelsey, and his coach with the, Kansas city chiefs, you know, they were having a moment. They were having an intense, passionate moment with a top performing athlete. Okay. Did the coach get all reactionary and bench him because he was like misbehaving or speaking inappropriately to the coach at the moment?No, that coach has been around a while. That coach just looked at him and he heard him. But is that the time to punish him, get into it or whatever? No, he let, he let him have his moment and they went on to win in the celebration of the super bowl, what were that coach and player doing, loving on each other, high fiving.They just made a ton of money. And one of the group things I saw in one of the chats on Facebook was he was disrespectful, he should have been benched. He should have been this. Very much standing in rightness at the end of the day, that coach was very wise with a very talented person. Let him have his moment, let him blow some steam and then let him ride, let him fly, let him get out there and do what he needs to do.And I think sometimes this is what I see in group thing in dentistry, killing a little bit of our ingenuity, our creation within our team, our advancement. Really crucial talent in our teams. So sometimes the doctor's like, well, they did this and I'm going to, you know, and I'm like, Hmm, that person closed 500, 000 in your books last year.Is this a battle or is this a war? Cause you're making it a ward. It might just be a battle we might just let this one go. So this is mindset. This is mindset. And you can tell how much I love this. I'm very passionate about it. I can go on, about it because I think in dentistry, one of the most, the biggest blessings I had is my clinicians that I worked for, male, female.I've, I've had both that I've worked for as an employee. Michael: Mm-Hmm. . Jennifer: they empowered me. They let me take my passion. They let me. You know, grow and do things. And they allowed me also to challenge their mindset at times about how they were thinking about something. the first one happened very young in my career when my dentist wanted to get in network with MetLife, we were completely fee for service practice, like literally the patient came and got a crown, they gave us a check.We gave them a super bill to melt to their insurance. And he says, we, we need to go in network with MetLife. And I said, tell me what that means. Not a clue. Michael: Yeah. Jennifer: We were right down the street from American Airlines hub at DFW Airport. We had pilots, we had flight attendants, we had baggage throwers, and he said, well, we can get more patients.And I said, we have three operatories. We're booked out six months. in hygiene right now because we have one hygienist. look at the fee schedule. So I looked at it and I said, you want us to take a 40 percent decrease in our pay. You want us to see more patients. We don't have capacity. Why would we do this? He said, they're going to leave us. Who told you this? Mindset. Michael: Mm hmm. That's why. Gotcha. That's nice. That's nice, Jennifer. Awesome. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for being with us. It's been a pleasure. If anyone had further questions or concerns, where can they reach out to Jennifer: you? You can find me at Prosperity Dental Solutions.That is my website. Um, my email is jennifer at prosperity dental solutions. I'm reachable through there. That's probably the easiest way to get ahold of me. Michael: Okay. Awesome. So that's going to be in the show notes below. And Jennifer, thank you so much for being with us on this Monday morning episode.Jennifer: Thank you for having me.‍

What you'll learn in this episode: Jennifer's unique process of layering acrylic and art images, and how she discovered her signature technique. Why the most important thing a young artist can do is find their voice. Why Jennifer rarely uses images her customers request in her jewelry. How Jennifer's work ties into the history of pop and op art. Why Jennifer sees other art jewelers as inspiration, not competition. About Jennifer Merchant: Jennifer Merchant is a studio t based in Minneapolis, MN. She graduated with a BFA in Metals and Jewelry from the Savannah College of Art and Design. She is a full-time artist showcasing her work in galleries, museums and exhibitions. Her work has been published in several national magazines such as American Craft, Ornament and Delta Sky Magazine. Merchant is best known for her innovative layered acrylic process in which images and prints are layered between solid acrylic. Her work is graphic with clean lines and modern aesthetic. Pieces confound viewers, appearing transparent from one angle of view while showcasing bold patterns and colors from another. Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter Transcript: Like the op and pop art that inspires it, Jennifer Merchant's jewelry challenges your eye. Clear from some angles and bold and colorful from others, the jewelry is created by layering acrylic with images from art books. Jennifer joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her technique; how she chooses the images in her jewelry; and why art jewelers need to work together to push the discipline forward. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, my guest is Jennifer Merchant. Jennifer was also a guest several years ago. She thought she would be a metalsmith but segued to acrylic jewelry, which is what she has become known for: creative and innovative acrylic jewelry such as necklaces, bracelets, earrings and brooches. They have eye-catching graphics embedded in them. I was also surprised to learn that hand carving is sometimes involved. Jennifer exhibits all over the country. She's been an active member of SNAG, the Society of North American Goldsmiths. She is also a member of other major jewelry organizations. Jennifer is going to tell us all about why she has chosen this route and her process in general. Jennifer, welcome to the program. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon. Sharon: I'm glad to have you. Why did you start working with acrylics? Jennifer: I actually started working with acrylic while I was still in college at the Savannah College of Art and Design studying metalsmithing and jewelry. Our professor gave us little chunks of acrylic one day, probably with the thought of using it for die forms. But I decided, “Hey, you can cut and sculpt this very similarly to working with waxes for lost wax casting.” I liked the immediacy of the acrylic, that once you carved it and sculpted it and polished it, it was a finished piece. It had a lot of really cool optical properties. So, I always kept it on the back burner as an interesting material. Then when I graduated from college and I moved back to my hometown of Minneapolis, I didn't have the tools and equipment to keep working with metal. So, I kind of fell into, “Hey, there was that acrylic I worked with a couple of times in school. It was very interesting. Let's see what we can do with that,” because it was cheap, and I could cut it with simple tools. I started experimenting with it from there. Sharon: And you make all sorts of jewelry with it. Do you know when you start out that you'll be making a necklace or a bracelet with the pieces you have, or do they talk to you as you put them together? Jennifer: I make pieces both ways. Sometimes I'll design a piece very specifically and have an idea and a picture in my mind of what I'm making. But then there's other times, especially when I'm working with the scraps that are left over from pieces that I've made in the past. A lot of those scraps are still very interesting, and they'll be in weird shapes. Those will speak to me, and I'll create something new and different with some of those. I kind of work both ways. Sharon: I know you're in a lot of stores and galleries. Do stores tell you what to do, or do you just say, “Here it is, do you like it”? Jennifer: I'm more of a, “Here's what I've been making. Let me know which ones you like.” I think sometimes it's important to follow your own inspirations. People tend to be drawn to the things that I'm most excited to make. That being said, some galleries have different clientele bases with different price points, so they'll tell me, “Hey, these pieces were working really well.” I'll take some feedback. But ultimately, I focus on making the things that I'm drawn to. Sharon: Do you have a studio inside your home or do you have a place that you go? Jennifer: For years I did have a studio outside of my home that I really loved, but a few years ago my husband and I bought a home, and I decided to move my jewelry practice into my home. So, now I work from home. But who knows, maybe in the future I'll expand a little bit and have another space in addition outside the home. It can be kind of a challenge working at home sometimes, but I've done both. I like working both ways, so we'll see what the future has for me. Sharon: Do you have assistants who work with you? Jennifer: I've had assistants in the past. I don't anymore. I scaled my business way back during COVID and took a breather to reevaluate what I'm doing and where my motivations are. I'm only just beginning to build it back. At this point, I don't work with anyone, but hopefully in the future I can find someone to help out with some of the production. It's a little challenging to find an assistant because my process is very unique. It's not something that people know how to do, so there's a lot of training involved. When I do work with people, it takes quite a while to get somebody that can help finish pieces to the quality standards that my galleries and clients expect. Sharon: When you were reevaluating things, what did you decide? Did your method change during COVID? Jennifer: I think things just slowed way down during COVID. 2020, honestly, it was going to be my year. I had a couple of really big events planned, one of which I got to do because it was in February, but the rest all moved online. There was such a lull in events and things to participate in. I had started questioning what my motivations are, because you really have to love what you're doing in order to be an artist as a profession. We had bought a house and were settling in. I've just been taking the last few years to figure out life so I can bring my A-game to my business again. Sharon: Did you stop production because you were doing it yourself during COVID? Jennifer: I did slow way down on production. If I had a client that was interested in something, or if I had an online event or that kind of thing, that would motivate me to produce some new pieces. But there were just fewer things going on to spark that creation. I have a harder time making things just because. I like to have an outside influence, like a show that's coming up or events that are going to happen and people are going to see my pieces. When I don't know when those things are going on, I have a little bit of a harder time. I think that is why during COVID, everything slowed down for me especially. But it also gave me a lot of time to think about what I want out of my business and where I want to go. And in May, I'll be launching my first web shop where you can actually buy my pieces directly from me. Sharon: Wow. I know that's a Herculean task. Jennifer: For me personally, the web shop is an extra big step because all of my pieces, even my production work, is one of a kind because of the images I'm using within my jewelry. They're all found images from art books and other sources. So, even if it's the same shape, like the marquee hoop earring, no two are going to be the exact same. So, every time I list a piece online for sale, I have to photograph each and every single one of them. It's taken a long time to get some of those things down where I could do it quickly enough and efficiently enough to be able to post all of these pieces with the right listings. It's a lot more work than having a design where you can put a picture of it and sell 25 of them. It's been a daunting thing to tackle. Sharon: Did you have to wait until you were efficient at photographing and making them so you could just churn them out? Jennifer: My work is very difficult to photograph because it is clear and transparent from some angles, and then it's bright and colorful from others. It's also very reflective. So, trying to photograph it cleanly and communicate the piece in a single image is very difficult. My work tends to resonate more from multiple angles. It has taken years to figure out the best way to represent these pieces in an image or two. Sharon: The online shop, do you think it's your most valuable social media outlet? Is there one? What do you think that is? Jennifer: For me, I'm not huge on social media. Instagram, I think, is the most fun. It's very image forward, which is something I really enjoy. Definitely, as I launch my website, I will be on social media a lot more to market. I think up until now I've mostly worked with galleries and shops or done specific events, so I haven't cultivated my online audience as much. I'm excited to explore that new chapter and get more into it and see what I can do from my home. That way in the future, when something happens where in-person events may not be happening as much, I can still have a connection to my audience. I've been getting asked for years, “Where can I find your pieces?” Because everything is one of a kind, if it's at a gallery in California, someone in Georgia is going to have a hard time getting their hands on it. I think it'll be really nice having my own shop so that people can have one destination to go, as well as all of the others, to be able to have that access. Sharon: How did you start getting galleries and stores interested in you? Jennifer: I have been contacted by most of the places that I work with. Earlier in my career, I did a lot more events and shows and I was able to meet gallery owners. Also, early on in my career, I met some of the people that work for the American Craft Council, which is based in Minneapolis. When they saw a local Minneapolis artist at a show in Chicago and met me and thought my work was cool, they were like, “You're in our city. Let's invite her to some events.” They really took me under their wing and wrote about my work and got me out there. I got a lot of contacts just from people seeing the articles that they had posted. For me, it's been a lot of just doing what I do, and because my work is so unique and different, people that it resonates with will remember and contact me, like, “Hey, we've never seen anything like this. Let's try it out at our gallery.” I've been very fortunate in that way, where I haven't really had to go out on my own, cold calling and trying to get appointments and that sort of thing. I just try to make really interesting work, get it out there as much as I can, and then hope that it snowballs from there. So far, that's been working for me. Sharon: Wow. I think it's great that you didn't have to cold call and that people were interested in your stuff, which is very unusual. I don't know anybody who does anything like that. So, you're very lucky. Jennifer: I'm very lucky that it worked out for me because I can be a little socially awkward with the cold calling and things like that. That was never my favorite part of the business. I am fortunate that my work speaks for itself. It's kind of a love it or hate it thing, which can be its own challenge, but it's definitely unique enough where when people see it, if they're interested, they will hunt me down and ask me about it. That's been very nice. Sharon: If an outlet wants more than one, maybe they want five bracelets, do you tell them right away that you can make the five bracelets, but they'll all have different graphics? Jennifer: Yeah. I did a couple wholesale shows a while ago where it was that challenge of, “Well, here's a design, but they're all going to be different, and you're not really going to know until you get them.” I think most people that are interested in my work like that one-of-a-kind nature of it. That's part of the interest, so they trust me. If they get pieces that maybe that imagery doesn't speak to them or their clientele, we'll talk about it and I can swap it out, get them some prints and patterns that they like better. It's kind of a back-and-forth process. And the longer I work with a gallery or a person, the more I get to know what works there. Then I can tailor my offerings to them for what works. Sharon: Where do you find your images and the pictures that you put in your jewelry? Jennifer: When I first started, I was using magazines because they were readily available, fairly inexpensive, and that's how I started this whole process of layered acrylic. But the paper in those is not very good quality and the pictures fade. It's also a challenge to find enough usable content. So, then I started purchasing art books. I would become interested in a specific artist and start collecting books about their work, and those books always had a lot of really amazing images. They're printed on really nice paper with good quality inks, and they're much more successful layering than magazines. Now I exclusively use books. I've become somewhat of a rare and vintage book collector. It's a really fun part of my job, hunting down these different books, figuring out artists that inspire me to start collecting things about their work and then finding really cool images. If there's a particular book that has a lot of really great images that I like, I will start looking for other copies of it. There are certain books about Roy Lichtenstein's work. There's one about posters that has a catalog in the back with all these smaller thumbnail images, and they're so great for making earrings, things like that. I must've bought that book like 10 times. So, that's where I get my images. It's all purchased materials like books that I then rip up and cut up and put in between the acrylic. Sharon: Well, you answered the question. I was going to ask you if you cut the books up or what you do. You also mentioned that magazines got you going with layered acrylic. Can you tell us about that? Jennifer: When I was younger, I subscribed to all kinds of fashion magazines and fun things, and I would keep them after reading them. I had shelves and shelves of magazines. When I first started working with acrylic, I had this idea that acrylic has pretty cool visual properties, optical properties, and when you put images underneath it, it looks so interesting. That's when I started going through my fashion magazines, lots of issues of Vogue. I would see cool prints on dresses and things like that, and I would rip those pages out and try to fit the prints and things that were in there within my jewelry designs. That's how I got started with the whole thing. It was just cheap materials I already had. Sharon: What are your sales policies? Do you accept returns? If I'm a client and you give me something and I say, “No, that's not what I want,” do you accept returns? What do you do? Jennifer: Yeah, I do accept returns. I think it depends. If it's a piece that already existed and they buy it and it just didn't work out, or it doesn't fit quite right or it wasn't what they were expecting, absolutely. It becomes a little more of a gray area when it's a custom piece, when someone wants specific imagery and this and that. That tends to be a little more delicate. That being said, I want people to keep my jewelry because they love it, not because they're trapped. So, even a custom order, if it doesn't come out quite as they were expecting, I try to work with people to either make it right or try something new. Some of the events that I do, it's a museum show where they're handling the sales and they're getting a commission, I'm getting a commission from the sale. Even though I'm selling to the customer directly, because it goes through the museum, usually it's an all-sales-are-final type situation, just because of the nature of the commissions and if they've already paid me and then the person changes their mind. It depends on the venue through which I'm selling the work. I would say most times, yes, returns are acceptable within a certain time frame, but there are certain instances where they are final sale. But even in that situation—I had a client come a couple of years later to a show, and she had this ring. I decided, “You know what? It's a really cool ring. Let's swap it out.” She wanted a pendant. I like to be a little flexible. Like I said, I want people to have my jewelry because they love it, not because they're forced to keep it. Sharon: I'm curious; in your studio, do you have pets that keep you company? Jennifer: I do. I've got a dog and a cat. My cat, Shackleton, likes to work with me. I have two workspaces in my home. Downstairs is the shop, the studio, and then upstairs I have an office where I do the bonding and the image gathering and looking through layouts. The cat, Shackleton, likes to hang out upstairs in the office and sit on all my papers and be in the way, but be very cute. Then my dog, her name's Sophia. She tends to stay out of the studio because it's loud and dusty. She'll come in the office and hang out, too, sometimes. But I don't know. She kind of does her own thing. She lets me work. Sharon: Well, it sounds like nice company. Do you make more than one piece at a time? All the pieces and extras, let's say, do you put them in a closet and then pull them out if somebody wants them? What do you do? Jennifer: I definitely always have some inventory on hand. I think as far as when I'm making pieces, as I was saying earlier, I tend to make when I have an event or I'm preparing for something coming up. Then I'll usually go above and beyond and make extra just to have. Also, because my pieces are one of a kind and the imagery is different on each earring, each ring, each bracelet, I will make more than I know I'm going to need or sell at a specific time, mostly to have options for my clients, because all the pieces are different and have different images. You never know what someone's going to be drawn to. It's especially difficult with things that have a size, like a ring or a bracelet. Then I make tons of them because you have to have lots of options. With those kinds of things, I'll take a lot more custom orders because someone will see something in person that they love, but it's not their size. I do my best to recreate things for people. I don't generally remake things with the exact same images because usually it's impossible, but I will do my best to get something with a similar aesthetic or feeling for people. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

Only 2% of children who have a mother incarcerated will graduate from college, and this needs to change. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we sat down with Jennifer Jones, the founder and executive director of the non-profit organization, Beauty Marks for Girls, which aims to disrupt this incarceration statistic with its devoted mentorship program. Jones shares her personal story and emphasizes the power of empathy and perseverance along with the importance of taking care of yourself.   Guest website: https://beautymarks4girls.com/ Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript of the Show MARY: Hi, everyone, welcome to the Class E Podcast. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communications Studies Department here at Furman University. This week I've been so excited all this week for this guest because you are going to be excited after you hear this conversation. You will want to.. don't walk, you will want to run to an event where she is listed as the speaker and after we have this conversation, you're gonna know exactly why I said that. Jennifer Jones, welcome to the show.  JENNIFER: Thank you Mary for having me. I'm excited.  MARY: Yeah. I'm excited for you to be here because Jennifer did a speech at one of the women's events that I went to. What was it last spring or something like that? Yeah. And I was just sitting in the audience and I was…I probably shouldn't admit this, but I was just crying. Because I was so touched and so inspired by her story. So I wanted to have her on to, you know, do the same for you guys. Right? So Jennifer, let's talk a little bit about your story. You've started a nonprofit, we're gonna get to that. But you had a lot, of course, leading up to that and were really motivated to start it in the first place. Can you tell us a little bit about your personal story?  JENNIFER: So Beauty Marks for Girls…It did derive from a lived experience. We mentor girls whose mothers are incarcerated in South Carolina. And so I wanted to make sure that no young lady has to experience the pain of living with an incarcerated mother by herself. I am the daughter of a formerly incarcerated mother, who really has turned my pain into my power.  MARY: Yeah. I love that.  JENNIFER: And I plan to do the same for the young ladies throughout our program. So parental incarceration, I like to say that it hurts, but still in those broken areas, you can find that is where your power lies. Normally I'm asked about Beauty Marks, where do we get that name from? And that's what it means… Every scar tells a story. And those stories not only deserve, Mary, to be told, but they deserve to be heard.  MARY: Oh absolutely. And telling and hearing are two different things.  JENNIFER: Absolutely.  MARY: So you overcame some of the hardships that you experienced and you graduated from Columbia with a Fine Arts degree.  JENNIFER: That's right. Columbia College.  MARY: Yeah, yeah. So tell us how you kind of have parlayed that into Beauty Marks for Girls.  JENNIFER: I think it's beautiful that it just, it matched perfectly for me because when I entered into college, arts was something that I wanted to focus on and what it did for me, the arts, was it allowed me to have this blank canvas, right? So Jennifer you can create whatever it is, no matter what you're going through, this is your canvas. So it was an outlet for me. I like to say that education saved my life, because it allowed me to use my pain as a way… as an outlet to grow not just personally but also from an impactful way throughout the state. So yeah.  MARY: I love the idea of the blank canvas really being a symbol for what these girls are working with in your organization because their lives are blank canvases right now and they may not realize it, right? But you guys help them with that.  JENNIFER: That's it. That's the beauty behind it is we're not telling them what to paint, but we're telling them here, here's the tools. No matter what you're going through, you can create something beautiful. It's the mastery for them using the paint brushes and the colors that they are given. And parental incarceration, like I said, is something we don't talk a lot about Mary. But what I have found is that when you create those spaces for these young ladies, they grow… they have the sense of belonging, their self esteem is built and they know that they are not defined or withdrawn from having a successful life. But we're here to help them along the course.  MARY: Yeah, and a lot of times they don't see that they can have a successful life. Because what they see is the trouble that their parents have gotten into or their mother has gotten into, and especially for girls, especially at some of these, you know middle school ages and even elementary school even earlier than that, they are super impressionable, obviously, and they need that special connection between their mom and if they're not allowed to have it, that's a big piece of their development that's missing.  JENNIFER: Absolutely. Perfect example - that first crush, right, in middle school. Or that first breakup, which I just experienced last week with a young lady and you know, typically we run and we tell our moms and our moms are there to embrace. What happens when that mom is not there? Girls tend to internalize, you know, what it is but I'm grateful that we have developed an ecosystem where they can pick up the phone and say, “hey, Miss Jen.” Well, they don't even have to say “hey, Miss Jen.” They may start off just crying.  MARY: Right, right. And you're gonna know by the tone of their voice exactly that something's up.  JENNIFER: That's it. And I say and I pause, “let me know when you're ready.” So they have that outlet. Yeah, that's important.  MARY: I love that. So you're not only providing the outlet and the network and the space. How exactly does the program work, like you guys meet weekly, or how does that work?  JENNIFER: Yes, so we are a year round mentorship program. So that is a part of our ecosystem. Every girl is partnered with a mentor and I like to say they're the trailblazers - our mentors are because they're creating this path that they may have never been exposed to if they didn't show up. So we meet with the girls on a monthly basis, but mentors do a “hey girl hey” check in and that's a call-in every month, twice a month, which is great. And that can be anything, Mary, from “hey, let's just go and grab some ice cream”, or I found this quote and I wanted to share it with you today. So that mentor really stands in the gap as the locomotive really to our organization.  MARY: You are so creative. I love the hey girl, hey, well, that's why you were a fine arts major. Hey, girl, hey, and all the other things that you're creating for these girls. It just spurns out of your creativity and your heart and your soul I think.  JENNIFER: It really does. And again, I look back to my connection with the arts. I have to be honest and share a little bit of my testimony…I knew when my mom was incarcerated, right, there were two options for me: it was either going to be quote on quote the streets or education. And I'm so grateful that I chose education. Now when I went to college… with the administrator like “hey, what are you gonna major in?” I was like “I have no idea” because I knew in college I was going to have a roof over my head, right? And I was gonna get meals a day. And it just goes to show that your pathway, you may not understand it in the very beginning, but keep walking. So not only that, I went to a women's college, one who would have ever known that I would be leading a women's, you know, organization. I started in prison, actually was called into the prison system and I taught two years there for rehabilitation for women - how to get to the root issue of what's going on. And then again, it just, it just transpired. So your pain is usually a dictation…it's giving a little bit of a leeway of what you're built to do in the future. So don't dismiss it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's great advice. Don't dismiss it and that can be applied to entrepreneurs to innovative thinkers, to anybody, young girls, young boys, anybody. I do want to talk a little bit about your volunteering at the correctional facility. What kinds of things did you learn from that experience that kind of helped you now? JENNIFER: Wow, that's a powerful, powerful question. The last thing I wanted to do was to go back into a correctional facility. But someone very dear to my heart, one of my mentors, actually my pastor, Pastor Wendell Jones, he said, “you know that you're healed in an area when you can go back to that place and you're not broken in that area.” That's when you know that you've hit a healing place. So what was mine gonna be? I had to go back to the correctional facility and that session was only supposed to be maybe like, two weeks. It turned into two years. I fell in love with vulnerability and community and that I was having an impact that was greater than me. And so that was my way to healing…was to give back and to ask mothers. That was the common denominator for moms…serving anywhere from a year to life in prison and to hear their stories and for them to say “Miss Jen, if I could turn back the hands of time or Miss Jen, if you can show up for my daughter's graduation on my behalf..” It's bigger than me. And so I was able to encourage them and heal at the same time. How divine is that?  MARY: Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, you saw me do it and the camera saw maybe too I don't know, but those of you who are listening, go to YouTube and watch that part. I caught my breath when you said that… that you are healed if you can go back to the place where you were broken… JENNIFER: Absolutely. Yeah. And you do not have that animosity or your strength and that's Beauty Marks. Every scar tells a story and we don't look at those scars as shame, but they're now badges of honor where I can tell my stories to the ladies and it was relatability, like wow, this young lady has taken time out of her day and she's going through something very similar as I am but we turn pain into power those young ladies. Funny, funny stories and… real quick Mary to a birthday event. And my very first mentee at the prison at Lee's Correctional was there at the birthday event. Very first mentee in 2016.  MARY: Full circle. JENNIFER: Full circle and she hugged me. And it was one of those full circle moments for her and she just poured her heart out like “thank you. You showed up when no one else understood. You didn't pass judgment on me.” Now she is a business owner doing well. I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing. MARY: Yeah. That gave me goosebumps when you said that because I love full circle moments like that. And we never know. I truly believe this. We never know what impact we have on somebody. A lot of times we go through life and never know but you had the look, I would say, of being able to experience that and know the impact that you had on her and you know you're on the right path. JENNIFER: And sometimes you don't recognize it…in that very moment, the seeds that, you know, that you're planting and that's how seeds work. You have to organically, right, you have to allow them to grow. And yeah, it was powerful. Yeah, that was a powerful moment.  MARY: I love that. I love that. I want to talk about failure just a little bit because these girls have experienced failure, right? and they may… and failure comes with a lot of negative connotations. Right? And I know that entrepreneurs and innovators think of failure as a positive thing most of the time as this is something we're going to overcome. We're going to learn from it. How do you incorporate that and teach the girls that? JENNIFER: Yeah, great question. We have a saying that obstacles… We look at obstacles as opportunities. You know, this is an opportunity for you to grow. This is the opportunity for you to learn something or maybe just pause for a moment and say maybe how do I need to pivot this? So we look at obstacles because failure is going to come and so that encouragement I think… also surrounding yourself with people who understand and have pivoted their way out of failure. That's important as well. MARY: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the girls can learn from that. And speaking of that, how do you find the mentors to pair up with the girls? JENNIFER: Yes, yes, great question. We typically try very hard to match our girls with whatever pursuit like career suit. Like we had a young lady who wants to be a nurse. So we made sure that we found someone in the nursing field. That can be just from networking, events, presentations, just doing a call to action, and the community's response..I can't describe it. It has blown me completely away. People see the need… people connect somewhere in the search, you know, in the story no matter if you had a parent incarcerated or not. We all… we're not immune to pain. Somebody somewhere is going through something and so to see individuals you know, executive directors say, hey, I don't have that much time, but I want to give two or three hours to mentor throughout the month. So it's been amazing. MARY: Yeah, I love that. What has been kind of..I know the whole thing has been rewarding because when you hear Jennifer talk about this, it's just, but what has been the most rewarding thing for you in this journey? Because I know the journey hasn't been easy. JENNIFER: That's a great question. Come on Mary with all the great questions today. I love it. Wow. So I set… our huge initiative is to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. As I spoke of earlier, my mom was incarcerated when I was in college, and so to drop a young lady off, and to help her get settled in… the first day of her day of college, I didn't have that, right? I was by myself. And I'm gracious you know, my brother, I had the bags on my back and it was pretty much good luck. Hope this works out.  MARY: That's kind of how I was.  JENNIFER: Hey, that's my story. But, to have a group and people… we actually paid for the U haul. We drove her down there. We hugged her, we said our goodbyes. That was a pivotal moment for me and I wept. I held it together, right, that day but I got in my car and I was like wow and it made the saying come to mind, the goal is not to live forever, Jen, but it is to create something that will live past you.” And I knew that that was my purpose. That was why, in a sense, I was placed here on this earth… to mentor and to make sure that girls never have to experience what I had to do alone. MARY: And this… the lives that you are touching that is your legacy. JENNIFER: That is my legacy. That is my legacy. MARY: Speaking of legacies, you have children. Two children. Am I right in that?  JENNIFER: I do.  MARY: Yeah. So let's talk about them and how them watching you is affecting them and kind of importing to them the things that you feel are important in life. JENNIFER: That's so good. That's so good. That's my heart. Right? So when I live on the outside, I live on the inside and Harmony Rose is a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. To be honest, she actually plans events better than me, but don't tell her I said that.  MARY: She's going to know if she listens to the podcast.  JENNIFER: But she is so excited.  MARY: And how old is she?  JENNIFER: So Harmony is eight.  MARY: Eight. That's what I thought. She's still pretty young.  JENNIFER: She's pretty young and she's excited. She has a heart for philanthropy. She picks out the girls'… because we provide care baskets every single month. So she goes to Walmart with me and she says, “Okay, remember mom, Jenesis didn't like that color last time or Eden, this is what she would love.” She does play dates because our girls are as young as eight years old in our program, who are missing a mom and she understands that and so she's a beacon of love, light… the girls in our program…they hug on her, she embraces them. It's a huge family. And so for her to see mom in action, that's a part of my legacy as well. MARY: Yeah. For sure. This has not been an easy road. It's not easy to start a nonprofit. And so what are some of the roadblocks that you encountered that you had to overcome? And…one, getting people to buy into your vision of what this is and how big it could be and how important it would be, but two, the funding, which nonprofits always have kind of an issue with sometimes. JENNIFER: Absolutely. So we launched Beauty Marks for Girls in 2019 as we know the pandemic hit the following year. So I'm like hmmm, I'm supposed to start a nonprofit with no profit, how exactly does that work? MARY: And everybody's on lockdown and can't see the girls. JENNIFER: Exactly, exactly. So the great thing about that…in 2018, I started with maybe around $17 so that's my story. It was and I bootstrapped right? So I stood in front of Walmart, I started this from the ground up. I'm appreciative from starting from the ground up because now I can share with others, share with other entrepreneurs what to do, what not to do. That was my path that I had to take. The great thing is by 2023, I would say that we were a six figure nonprofit organization.  MARY: Wow, that's huge. JENNIFER: Starting from $17 to that and it was just learning… MARY: That's four years… JENNIFER: That was four years of growth and it was the community and telling the stories. For instance, our gala that we had, we didn't bring any keynote speakers very to our gala. Our girls told their stories, and they did in such an organic way. And that was the goal. I wanted the community to hear what these young ladies… what it feels like to truly walk in their shoes, having a mom incarcerated for the next 10 years, and you're only 11. What does that feel like? And so like I said, I would, I would say the financial part of it is always going to be a challenge. The funny thing, the funny challenge I like to always bring up is that a lot of the milestones that we had planned for maybe five or so years to do, we were doing it two years or three years. And while some like what's the problem with that? That's super exciting. It presents this challenge because your team now says “well, what's next?” And as the leader, you have to be vulnerable and say, “I don't know. I don't know.” And so that presented a challenge for me constantly being innovative. And just to bring up GVL Starts…that was one of my… I like to say I had kind of like writer's block or creative block because I was pushing out all of these programs. They weren't effective. And I came to that roadblock like what do we do next? And so I linked up with Brian Davis at GVL Starts and that really, I would say helped me to get my mojo back. Right and everybody was like, okay, team was like “Jen's back.” We pushed out a mental health and wellness program out at that time that is exclusively for girls who have a mother incarcerated and it is right now voted the number one among our girls… the number one program Beauty Marks for Girls has offered. MARY: Yeah, that's good. Because that's a component, right, that we all need, especially in this day and age. I was gonna circle around to Greenville Starts, but you jumped right in there. And I went through Greenville Starts within the first cohort because I have a production company but see if you found what I found… that just the community, I mean, you know, put the speakers aside and educators beside who they bring in because they bring in somebody every day and every time you go… just the community of the entrepreneurs helps because everybody's in that innovative mindset and they're all thinking outside of the box and they're… not just for themselves but for you too. So I found those conversations almost to be as beneficial or maybe more beneficial sometimes than some of the educational components that were planned for us. Not that they weren't because they certainly were, but… JENNIFER: You stated it perfectly. That was the missing link when I was going kind of through that writer's block, that was the missing link. I was not surrounding myself with other innovators…. like minded innovators who were just as wide-eyed and willing to take the risks. But when we linked hands, as sweaty as they were because we were all nervous, I found that was the best thing for me. Yeah, it was that you can't do it without community. You can't. So that changed our life. Greenville Starts. MARY: How has that helped you even, I mean, I think you were in the last year's fall cohort, is that right?  JENNIFER: Yes. MARY: Yeah, so a year almost since then. What kind of changes in addition to the mental health component that you've incorporated for the girls…what other, what other ways did that help you open your eyes to some things that maybe you needed to do or overcome some things.  JENNIFER: It was beautiful. I don't know if you know or not, but we actually walked away with the title last year.  MARY: Yes. you did.  JENNIFER: So, we, Beauty Marks for Girls, we won top pitch, $5,000. And that was our seed fund to start the mental health and wellness program. So we took that seed and took that check in and our young…all they saw was zeros, right? So they didn't know how much it was.  But it was an opportunity for me to say “hey, you can do whatever you set your mind, and you work hard to do. And that was beautiful. So it… again, it helped us to launch our mental health and wellness program which we're going into our second year and now, not only that, but the network of connections that I have made from one, that actually lended a partnership with the Department of Corrections from the cohort. So that right there, that means that we can do more in the prison systems, more families are served. And again, the backing from Furman University and so many other organizations, just has been absolutely incredible. MARY: How many girls do you have right now? JENNIFER: So we have fourteen total across five different counties. And then we have three girls who are in college full time on full ride scholarships. MARY: Oh, that's amazing.  JENNIFER: That's our goal. Our second is to again… to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. And we've already sent three on full ride scholarships. MARY: You're well on the way. Well on the way. I was going to ask you, what's next for Beauty Marks for Girls? What do you have cooking in the coffers that you're thinking about rolling out? That you can share with us.  JENNIFER: Okay, you know, I'm excited. I'm so excited. I will say what's in the work right now is that we are trying to turn our mental health program into an application. So it's a platform.  MARY: Oh yes. Fabulous.  JENNIFER: So this is an app exclusively, again, for girls whose moms are incarcerated… so it can be a young lady who is in Greenville or she can be in Southern California. It's not going to matter if she's going through the hurts and pains of parental incarceration, she can log in…it's a safe haven and they can see exactly what we're doing here. So we'll have workshops there, guided meditation. So, it's an application that girls all over the nation can join in on. MARY: So they have it in their pockets at all times.  JENNIFER: Absolutely. MARY: I love that. JENNIFER: So, some of the forums will be what to do the first 24 hours that your mom is incarcerated. So that app is out there where they can log in and meet the students who we have here in South Carolina and again, build that community. MARY: I love that.  JENNIFER: I'm so excited. You know I'm excited.  MARY: Yeah, I love that next step. So your vision is to go nationwide?  JENNIFER: It is. Absolutely. And globally, ultimately. MARY: I love it. Because we have so many moms that have been incarcerated. They're leaving their kids.  JENNIFER: Yes. Absolutely. MARY: And a lot of times…say that number again. JENNIFER: I would say 2.5 right now… 2.5 children have been affected by parental incarceration. Only 2% of children who have a mother incarcerated, based on statistics, will graduate from college. So I'm a part of that 2% and my goal is to disrupt that statistic…girl by girl day by day. MARY: Yeah, yeah. I love it. Disrupt that statistic. You have to probably have kind of a, well I know you have several like visions and things that motivate you or whatever, but do you have an entrepreneurial kind of philosophy that you would share with other entrepreneurs that maybe they're like, oh, that's okay, I get something now.  JENNIFER: Yeah. I would say take care of yourself. From a personal…as much as we want and need your product or innovation, we need you well, so that would be number one because that creativity will flow when you're self care. I would say that that definitely is number one and mental health. The second thing I would probably state to encourage other entrepreneurs is it's okay to pivot. It's okay. It's okay to pivot as I was vulnerable with my team, I didn't know what to do. Okay? At that point, you have to be vulnerable. As you know, that's my stance… vulnerability is the pathway to creativity and connection.  MARY: Absolutely. I completely agree.  JENNIFER: That's it. That's it and don't… definitely don't give up. Don't give up. There were so many days that I was like, this is not working. I don't have the money. Going from $17… You don't really know what you're doing at the beginning. But the resiliency that's going to be pushed out of you will live past you, but you do have to see it to the end. Discipline right? Discipline is freedom. You have to be disciplined as an entrepreneur. And I like to also say because I come from corporate America, the same type of motivation and hard work and discipline that you put within someone else's company, it needs to be to a second level for your own.  MARY: Oh, yes, absolutely. JENNIFER: It needs to be to a second level and continue to elevate and to amplify your voice and take up space. Yeah, don't be afraid to do that  MARY: I love that. I love that. If you could give one piece of advice to the girls, what piece of advice would you give them? Because everything is so individual… JENNIFER: It is. And our program is really tailored to what the young ladies need. If I could give some advice, I would say to learn the power of empathy and forgiveness. It came to a point that before I could go to the next level, I had to have that tough conversation with my mom, right? So I had to forgive and I had to empathize with her. Now my mom is celebrating over 10 years of sobriety and she's a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. We actually named our scholarship after my mom. So I would say lead with empathy and the power within that is to learn to forgive and live to the best of your ability and not hold grudges. Live out loud. Don't be afraid to soar. Yeah. MARY: Yeah, I think that's great advice for anybody, not just the girls, but everybody listening. Right? Everybody listening. MARY: What do you need? JENNIFER: So right now, my goal is to continue to build relationships. So… mentors…we are in need of mentors, mental health ambassadors. You don't have to have a clinical or a form of degree to help a young lady who just needs a shoulder to cry on. We need a lot of hands who need to show up at events, our mental health as I spoke to our app that we're getting ready, you know, just maybe some technical assistance and where to start. That's something that we are definitely looking into. Board of directors, we're always looking to engage with board of directors to help with the health and, you know, the future of Beauty Marks for Girls. So I would say that's number one. Always financial support is going to be something.. I say that a nonprofit is as strong as the community that holds it up. When you see nonprofits, not here, it's usually a funding, right? I've seen great founders walk away from organizations and great work, great causes, but the funding isn't there. So to continue to have this impact that we're having in the state of South Carolina we need that support, that financial support, and it doesn't have to be always a dollar amount to it Mary. If you have a restaurant and say, hey, I want to, you know, bring your girls in to have lunch for after school. That's giving back. Everyone can do something in the philanthropic world. So yeah, so yeah, I would say that. MARY: Jennifer, I love that. How can people get in touch with you to perhaps give in those ways or become a mentor? JENNIFER: I would love to speak more with you. You can reach us at Beauty Marks, the number four, girls.com. That's B, E, A, U, T, Y, M, A, R, K, S, the number four, girls.com. We're also on social media so you can find us on Instagram. Please follow, please like so we can spread the message of what we're doing to have a greater impact. Linked in as well as Facebook. So yeah.  MARY: And you know what? Even if you can't, you know, donate right now or even if you can't, you know,  don't have the time to be a mentor, whatever the case is, you can go on social media and comment and share and bolster because that engagement is so important to spread the word right? Because social media is a huge network and in order for that network to grow, we have to engage.  JENNIFER: Very true. One of our biggest, I would say stakeholders, right now they're in Brooklyn, New York.  MARY: Yeah.  JENNIFER: So like how they found us? I'm not sure, but it was because someone you know, saw the needs, saw the cause connected us. So like you stated it's just as vital, social media. MARY: All right, Jennifer, I'm gonna give you a last word. Anything else you want to make sure that our viewers know about you or Beauty Marks For Girls or entrepreneurship or innovation? JENNIFER: Yes. First of all, thank you Mary. I want to end by saying thank you so much. This is like family to me you all, Furman University, GVL Starts. Pau, Kelly, Brian Davis, everyone I just want to say thank you for that. We are stronger together.  MARY: Absolutely.  JENNIFER: And so I would say last words is don't be afraid to live out loud. Don't be afraid to live out loud. And that your the hardest parts of your testimony could be the roadmap and the blueprint to save another life. So yeah, don't forget that… the power within you.  MARY:  Yeah, yeah, that just made me go whew. I love it. See this is why you should go listen to her speak. Like I said…don't walk, run to sign up for whatever, wherever you're speaking.  JENNIFER: We go deep. We go deep. You will not walk out the same. You will not walk out the same.  MARY: That is so true.  JENNIFER: Yep.  MARY: Jennifer, thank you so much.  JENNIFER: Pleasure.  MARY: I can't wait until I see you again. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, if you or someone you know has an idea for a nonprofit or a business venture, then Greenville Starts is here to help you do that. So just Google Greenville Starts Furman and it should be the very first thing that pops up on your Google search and get yourself into one of those cohorts that are coming up. But it makes a huge difference as Jennifer has shared with us, other guests have shared with us. So make sure you go do that. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is a true example of the Furman Advantage because we are produced by student producer, Isabella Martinez. And so she creates these rundowns for us and she creates these questions and she researches the guests and then she edits these things together. So please give her some kudos if you see her interacting online because she does a heck of a job. The other thing I want to remind everybody is that you can now watch us on YouTube as well. So of course we're wherever you get your podcasts and we're on YouTube, but hit that subscribe button so that you are notified whenever we have a new episode out which is about every other week. All right. But that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgilll. Until next time everybody, dream big.          

Seth Carpenter, Morgan Stanley Chief Global Economist, and Mark Cabana, Bank of America Head of US Rates Strategy, break down the US Treasury's refunding announcement. Dom Konstam, Mizuho Securities Head of Macro Strategy, previews the Federal Reserve's rate decision. Win Thin, Brown Brothers Harriman & Co. Global Head of Currency Strategy, expects Japanese yields to continue to rise after the BOJ's decision. Jennifer Flitton, Invesco Head of US Government Affairs, discusses the latest in Washington on US aid to Israel.Get the Bloomberg Surveillance newsletter, delivered every weekday. Sign up now: https://www.bloomberg.com/account/newsletters/surveillance      FULL TRANSCRIPT:     This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keene, along with Jonathan Farrow and Lisa Abramowitz. Join us each day for insight from the best an economics, geopolitics, finance and investment. Subscribe to Bloomberg Surveillance on demand on Apple, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcasts, and always on Bloomberg dot Com, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the Bloomberg Business app. Where this seth Carpenter at, the chief global economist at Morgan Stanley. Is this just about in our start? Are we all John Williams this morning and we're readjusting? I clared it with me last week at a Bloomberg event. At two point zero percent is not two point six percent? I mean, are we really talking, as Mike aludes tou there about a new inflation regime? I think you want to separate out a couple of things. One is the new inflation regime, and there if you're comparing it to where we were from the financial crisis through COVID to say, yes, right, the FED was consistently missing it's inflation target to the downside. I call it a quarter percentage point. We're above, clearly above target now and over the next several years they want to bring it down, but I'm not sure they want to go back to the old days of you know, being below two percent on a regular basis. So if they're going to be averaging a little higher during expansions, call it a tenth or two above. You know, you're talking about twenty five to fifty basis points high inflation, so that's got to be there. I don't think we're talking about the difference between two percent inflation and three percent of I want to tell you on radio on television where we're heading here, what half are we have. We have Dark Carpenter with this on the broader economics of this moment. Ira Jersey schedule to join us just exquisite here on fixed income dynamics, and then we do even better. Mark Cabana is going to darken the door. Who's just expert on your world about you know, the different tranches of the auctions. I want to dig into what the implications are of this announcement sas and to me, I'm looking at the idea that they're really going to force the front end to a lot of the heavy lifting here. Does that pose a greater risk than people realize. So my view is no, the way I would think about it. There was a speculation that back and forth a little bit earlier, did the Treasury just react to the market. And I think you want to remember that the folks there at Treasury, Josh Frost, the assistant secretary, the career staff in debt management, they have a structure now, they have a framework for how to think about what to issue, and they're looking at what is the market saying about where the market wants to pay up and where the market's demanding a discount, and at the margin, they'll lean a little bit more to where the market wants the paper and lean a little bit away from the place where the market's pulling back. And we've seen over the past several months a big sell off in the long end. It showed up, you know, in models speak and the term premium, and they're paying attention to that. It's not that one week to the next, or one month to the next, or even one quar to the next, is it sustained. What we are seeing is very much a strong move on the long end in that thirty year yield plunging back below five percent. As we were talking about do you think I think that this indicates that really what we're seeing in yields is entirely a supply driven story more than anything in terms of an economic read on strength and inflation in the US. So no, it's so hard depending on any single thing. When I talk to our clients here in New York, in London, around the world who are trading in treasuries, there are a whole set of different narratives, one of which has been supplied. People have been worrying about the deficit, which is exactly why Secretary Yellen came out and said it's not the deficit. People are worrying about stronger growth. Q three GDP data was very strong, There's no two ways about it, and so that contributed to it. Other people are worrying about is there going to be a pullback from risk by global investors. Other people are looking at the back of Japan. We just had that meeting right where they effectively de facto got rid of yield crop control. So it's not just one single thing, it's everything coming together. So what's your compass at a time where we're expecting the FED to come out today too in varying shades of we have no idea and we will see just along with you, what is your guiding loadstar. So we're trying to figure out, along with the Fed, sort of what's going on with the economy. The strong Q three data and notwithstanding there are some signs of the economy slowing down. The last jobs report super strong, but if you look at the trend over the past eighteen month, clear downward trend. If you look at the GDP data, consumption spending holding in, but a lot of the strength was in inventories. Capex was not very strong at all, and so we are seeing that slowing. And so what we think is the Feds look in the same data we are. They're driving by feel a little bit and they're not going to hike today. We don't think they're going to hike in December because inflation just keeps undershooting their own forecast for where they thought inflation was going to be this year. What does the job dynamic look like with an ellen Zetner's sub one percent Q four GDP, Well, I think there This is where we want to keep in mind that there's so many swings from one quarter the next to some of the spending data. Like I said, the inventory, the numbers, that was never going to be the primary driver. So she starts giving you gloom on the job economy. Not at all. I will say that we have a Morgan Stanley Ellen and I and the rest of the team have been consistent from the beginning of this hiking cycle to say, the Fed's gonna hike, They're going to bring down inflation, but we are not going into recession. It is not doing gloom. Well, she's expert on the American consumer. What is Zenner when she gets fired up? You know she does. When Zender gets fired up about the American consumer, what is she saying? Lots of things, but in particular, one of the key risks that maybe people are overlooking for why there should be a slowdown in the fourth quarter is student loans. Right, there is a moratorium on student loans that's been lifted. We're starting to see that payback starting to happen, and that has to crimp consumer disposable incomes. That matters durable goods. Right. Interest rates are high, credit card rates are high. People financing cars and other things, it's just costing more and so they'll pull back on the spending. It just extraorded her. Seth Carpenter, thank you so much, really really appreciate it. With Morgan's stay, he writes piercing notes for Bank of America. There's no other way to put it. Out of US rates strategy, He's aged in the last ten minutes. Mark Cabana joins us this morning. So I'm like refunding, so what, I don't care. Everybody's in a ladder. It comes out, and to me it was sort of I don't you know, I really don't care. Jenny Allen said, we're gonna do short paper. Yeah, we're gonna do long paper. But we're the United States. Our listeners are viewers who are not sophisticated. Do they need to fear the fiscal system of America? No, you shouldn't fear the fiscal system because the US economy is still going to be very robust. There will be buyers for treasury paper. It's just a matter of at what level will they step in, And we've had a relative lack of buying recently, but that's meant that yields have had to adjust, and as they've adjusted, that should incentivize more investors to think about owning bonds and we do think that rates are going to keep rising or they're going to stay elevated. Really, until you see one of two things. Number One, until you see the macro data slow, we don't think that you've really seen that yet. Or two until you see d risking, until you see investors who think, you know what rates are kind of high, really yields almost a two and a half percent at the tenure point. That's a decent own and maybe I should think about de risking in my portfolio. This is such a valuable conversation. Then I got to get to what we see on balance sheets right now, mark to market and the rest of it in bonds. But let's stay on this theme right now of our new higher yield regime. How far out are you in the longer? I mean, if take any given yield, any given spread, is there a cabana one year, is it a cabana three years? How do you see the regime of longer? Well, we just think that rates are going to have to stay higher for longer. Not to reiterate the Fed mantra, but we really believe it because we've seen an economy that's been so resilient in the face of relatively elevated interest rates. And as long as that happens, that just is going to mean that the f it doesn't have to cut for a while. Now, when I think about longer, I personally think about five years plus. Oh wow, okay, my attention, just because you know, most investors who really focus on liquidity and liquidity management, they think generally two years, three years. But when I think about intermediate to long end, I think about five years plus. Okay, And I'm going to invent this phrase right now. I haven't seen it anywhere else. I want to copyright on this if you use it. Is it normal for longer? Is that really what we're talking about, is we're back to a normal rate regime. Well, it's certainly we're back to a regime that looks a lot more similar to the pre financial crisis than the post financial crisis. You've got a five year window on that. So what maturity do you buy? I'm in cash, I'm really comfortable at Bank of America. What maturre do you buy given a five year normal for longer view? Well, it really depends upon what your overall investment horizon is and where your preferences are. We think that if you're focused at the front end, you probably we want to be neutral to slightly overweight your benchmark. And if you're a more long term investor, we think that you at best want to be neutral right now, and you want to stay neutral until you see those signs of feedback that tell you that higher interest rates are finally slowing the economy, not just one data point here or there, but in the tier one stuff in labor more clearly an inflation. You want to stay neutral until you see those signs, or until you believe that there's a clearer and more definitive negative feedback from risk assets, which I don't think that we have really seen sufficiently yet. I love to bust Brian moynihan's chops because he, like no other CEO, quotes his research staff and I'll go blah blah blah about Bonzi and his own Cabana says, So let's get the report from Cabana that you would give to Brian moynihan right now. I got balance sheets, nationwide, mark to market I get, and I got everything else with massive bond losses, priced down, yield up. Should our listeners and viewers be afraid of this non marked market garbage on balance sheets. Well, I think you're talking about bank balance sheets, and we do appreciate that. Brian reads our research. He's a staunch supporter, and we really do appreciate that. We think that what banks are doing right now is that they are really prizing liquidity. They really want to hold as much liquidity as possible. They're choosing to hold cash, they're keeping reserves with the FED, and they're not buying bonds, they're not buying treasuries or mortgages, and they're prizing liquidity because they know that they need to meet their outflow needs. They know that their securities book is not particularly liquid because it's so low in value. You don't want to sell and realize the loss. We saw what happened with some of the regional band. So what do you do? This is the key thing. So what do you do if you're a bank? What do you do if your bank? If you've got all this out there and you don't want to sell, just like you said, but things can happen, things can change. How do you process that reality? If you're a bank, what you're doing right now as you're holding that is the game. That's why the Fed shrunk their balance sheet through QT by a trillion dollars, and you've seen bank cash holdings not move down very much at all. They are bidding up on the liability side of the balance sheet. They're issuing CDs, time deposits, etc. To take in more money because they're seeing retail outflows. And then they're holding cash and they're going to continue to do that until they see signs that the economy is turning, until they know that their loan growth is really slowed down and maybe negative on a year over year six month average or whatnot. And they're gonna wait until the economy slows more meaningfully to extend out the curve and buy those bonds. Right now, banks are not buying duration. They've been shrinking their treasury and agency holdings, and they're going to wait to add duration until they see definitive signs that the economy is turned. And so again, what banks are doing right now, it's holding out liquidity because that is the most valuable thing that they seem to believe that what does holding out liquidity mean for mere mortals that can't hold out liquidity? Small business? Torsten Slocke at Apollo talks about ten percent small business loans as well. I saw a thirty one percent charge card the other day. It wasn't Bank of America, of course, thirty one percent charge card interest rate the other day. What does the public do given price down, yield up banks saying I'm scared stiff, I got a whole cash. Look, it's a tough time to be a borrower. I think we know that, right. It's tough time to move, it's a tough time to buy a home, it's a tough time to be a business if you need a loan. And that's exactly what monetary policy is trying to do, right, It's trying to slow down activity by reducing demand for loans and borrowing. And so if you're a small business and you do need a loan, well you need to think about, Okay, what other liquidity sources do I have? Can I draw on any other type of liquidity? And then you've got to ask yourself do I really need to expand? Do I need to make that next investment? And you got to make sure that you can clear a much higher hurdle rate in order to justify those costs. That's how monetary policy works. It should slow down activity through the lending channel, and to some extent we're seeing that, but it hasn't happened, I think to the extent of the FED, like Mark Commander, thank you so much. With the Bank of America joining us now to begin strong on this day of a Federal Reserve meeting is Dominic Constem. He's head of macro strategy at Mosile Americas. For years literally iconic Credit Suite were thrilled that doctor Constem could join us today. Dominica, I give you the phrase super restrictive. Is Jerome Powell's FED combined with market action a super restrictive FED. Well, yeah, in the context of the sustainability of the US consumer, and if you like the overhang of debts refinancing in the corporate sector really beginning in twenty twenty five, you know, clearing the front end is super restrictive, and it's going to have to get first quite aggressively. As some stage that the issue is a timing, and you know that timing has been pushed out because the consumer who's got great balance sheet, has decided that even as they spent all their fiscal excess that they were given after COVID, they're deciding to leverage up even with interest rates as high as they are, but they can do that because of the balance sheet, So that kind of delays the impact of this super restrictiveness, which is kind of a bit of a conungrum for the Fed. So that's the price for longer, not higher for longer, but just longer. What is the cost did your own power of a longer strategy at these levels? Well, I think what's happened in the last couple of months really has been that the Fed has decided that, you know, because effectively they are super restrictive, they didn't want to keep on pushing up short rates, you know, don't not quickly go to six percent. So they've emphasized this idea that they're just going to hold at a high level for that much longer. But ironically that directly feeds into a sell off in the back end, the idea that what we call term premium, this risk premium that's short rates you end up being higher than the equivalent tenor of a longer dated treasury. That's term premium that gets priced into the market, which is why you've had this enormous sort of bare steepening going on with the tens going up to close to five percent thirties, nifiing the corter, et cetera. And in a way that that's not a bad thing if you want to slow the economy, but because that will undermine and is undermining risk assets, and it will help to tighten financial conditions overall. So that's the impact of what the Fed is doing. There is a risk though, that they run because you get people concerned about the as you mentioned earlier, the refinancing of the Treasury. You know, when they decide to issue longer dated debts that now it is coming in at much higher interest rates, and you start worrying about a vicious circle where if you can't reduce a debt so through spending cuts, well you've got another problem because your interest service costs are going up at the same time. And that's kind of get people worried about this idea that Treasury isn't going to be able to sustainably fund itself down the road, particularly when you get those sort of you know, bigger issues coming up, the structural issues coming up that will mean higher deficits. There's always been a sort of uncomfortable tension, especially now between the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve, especially because the Treasury Department is helmed by the one and only Janet Yellen who used to head the FED. How much is a treasure you're going to try to game out the market and kind of give a helping hand to the Fed by not concentrating some of those debt sales in the longer end, sell tea bills and hold a pad and wait for things to normalize. Well, I mean, it's obviously a great question and issue. I mean, strictly speaking, I don't think Treasury really should gain things too much. You know, they're not really traders as such, and if they were, then you know, maybe God help us. I mean, the idea I think is is, you know, you do have rollover risk, so you know, no one really knows how quickly long term rates might might reverse, even if we go into some slowing you know, where is this sort of mutual rate It might you know, might be higher and maybe ten years trading around you know, five percent is the sort of new norm. So I think it wouldn't be appropriate for the Treasury to really try and game the markets or a near term and sort of second guests that short term rates are going to come crashing down and they'll be able to refinance themselves down the road by extending maturity later. So I think they'll they'll probably extend the duration. I think the estimates are kind of you know, you know, seem about right, this sort of one hundred and fourteen billion and putting it in coupons. And because of the announcement we had earlier in the week, they can cut bill supply bits. So that's our expectation and no gaining of it. Basically, a lot of people expect this to be a boring meeting, sibad or Jappa calling it a placeholder, Steven Linder saying, how many ways can you say we'll see? I mean, this is basically going to be a holding kind of pattern. And yet we see a dissonance growing where the market sees and escalating's chance of excelling, reaccelerating inflation. At the same time that the Feds kind of seeming to subtly agree with Janet Yella and saying that yields are going to go back down. Do you think they're going to bridge that gap today? Well, they could do. I mean they've always got the option to. I mean that there are a couple of interesting things going on. I mean, obviously this sell off in the long end is very interesting, and I think they can definitely address that in the conference call and basically say that's doing some of the work for them and be a bit more optimistic. They can also be actually, even though inflation has been a bit sticky on the very latest prints, they could be a bit more optimistic on that. We've done some background analysis on that, and the reason why inflation has been a bit stick is it's really been on the demand side, less on the supply side type thing. And I think that's encouraging because that's something a little bit more understandable and sort of indicative that, you know, the underlying trend lower is still in place for inflation, and obviously the global inflation picture has been looking a bit better, so I think they can basically, you know, I don't think it'll be an uninteresting meeting or press conference. It's just really a question of how far power wants to go down the road and try and sort of reassure markets. One interesting thing I always think is that you know, to what extent to the FED really anticipate or understand that their actions at the September meeting was going to lead to this sort of you know, near one hundred base on itseel off in the long end. I mean, it's been quite dramatic, And did they really expect that way? Yes, this is a question dominic and why this is outside your remit. But we've known each other for years, So I'm going to go from the macro of constant to commercial banking. Bernanky taught us at Princeton that financial structure and strength matters. I'm looking at the technical construct of the American banking system and I don't like what I see. Should the FED fold in what's happening to the banks right now? Should they today pay attention in their meetings to the weakness that we see in commercial banking equity prices? Absolutely? And I think the thing that so many people miss is they think that banks are kind of less important now than they were before because of alternative banking, you know, fintech, private equity, you know, other forms of leverage if you like, in the system that they people think seem to think, you know, credit is created elsewhere. Credit is that there's something called outside money, which is a central bank, and they start the credit creation process there's in something called inside money, which is the banking system, and they continue the credit creation process. And to be honest, that pretty much is where how credit is created. Money it can only be created by the FED and the banks to the bank multiplier. It cannot be created by private equity. They have to get their leverage from somewhere. And so I think you always have to go to the banking system, and you always have to focus on if the banks are kind of doing their job, even if the leverage overrule in the system is getting higher and higher, and the relatives of the banks, they're the ultimate ones who if they pull the plug, let alone the FED putting the plug, then the whole kind of system can start to implode. So I do think it's very important what's happening in the banks, and I think it's a big concern that obviously lending is slowing down. There is obviously regulation and there's some credit some cattle restrictions taking place, but that's all part of the cycle. And as long as the FED is there to pick up the pieces at the end of it, we're fine. But those pieces will need to be picked up. You sound like Alan Meltzer, the late Great Alan Meltzer, lender of letters. Who are dom I got thirty seconds? Are you concerned the massive shift from deposits to money market funds? Is that going to destabilize the system. Well, it's been a challenge, but to be fair, that TGA build up that the Treasury has done has actually come at the expense a lot of the money market funds and the repo there. So I think, you know, the Fed has actually managed this process relatively well with the help of the Treasury rebuilding TJA with all that bill issuance, so you know, you know, it's it's a relatively orderly process, but it's obviously something that you've got to keep watching. You don't want excess reserves to get too low in the banking system. Is that to Constant? Thank you so much, Dominic Constant with the Missouri Are they just a terrific brief Therey joining US doctor Wynn Thinn, global head of Currency Strategy around brothers Harriman win Thin. You were at the altar of Robert Mundel at Columbia who invented our international currency dynamics. Is there a theory to what Japan is doing? Are they making up original theory? Well, first of all, thanks, thanks, as always a pleasure to appear here with you guys. To me, it's an experiment, it's an ongoing experiment. You know, Japan has been fighting deflation for decades and they've thrown everything at the wall to see what sticks. The latest iteration was negative rates and he locor control and by hooker, by crooked, it's it's finally getting out of deflation. It's obviously the positive makers are very nervous there getting you know, starting these poses is the easy part. Getting out of them is always the hard part. We saw the FED struggle with getting out of q back after a great financial crisis. So what we've been seeing unfold over the last year is just a really haphazard so again throwing stuff at the wall to see what works. It's been again more out of fear and concern than anything else. They don't want to upset the opera card that the recovery is, by many measures, you know, quite modest and vulnerable, and so that's what we're seeing. I do think that that Japan will exit accommodations fully in early times, and by that I mean a ray hike. Why should our why should our viewers and listeners care in the Western world, it just seems to be removed and over there. For example, comparing the yuan the ren menbi in China to Japanese. Yeah, and even with we you want versus a dollar, it's studying how weak the Japanese yen is versus ren memby. Why do I care in America? Well, I think, as you guys pointed out just earlier in the segment, Japanese investors have been have been basically leaving Japan and chasing yield and returns elsewhere. And that's because of the zero rate interest policy and heal com control. Domestic eiels aren't attractive enough. So we've seen massive capital outflows of Japan over the last years, if not decades. If we get that infection point where things change and actually rates are allowed to go back to market based levels, I think the fear of at least in Japan and others, is that that wave of capital will come back from crashing back. And already seen announcements some of the Japanese life insurers that they planned the second half of this fiscal year to underweight foreign investments, foreign bonds and overweight jgb's in anticipation of normalization. So there's also the capital flow stories that I think, you know, coming in a time when we don't know what the Fed's doing, we don't know what's going on in Europe with the Middle East. It's just another sort of added uncertainty that Marcus had that jests and I think that's what I think investors in general are worried about. It's almost deliberate ambiguity. Is deliberate ambiguity by the Bank of Japan going to actually create some sort of soft gradual increase in yields and some sort of controlled departure from yaled curve control. Yeah, yeah, at least I think that's what we're seeing. In fact, in my opinion, Yeald curve control is dead. It's deader than Elvis right now, as far as I can tell, they've they've introduced this ambiguity where it's now one percent is now reference point. Who knows what that means. So the market will will prod and tested the Bank of Japan not just on heels but also on the dollary in and it's gonna be a cat and mouse game. But really, for all intents and purposes, jgbills are going up. They have been going up. They will continue go up. We'll go above that one percent sort of reference point within days, and you know the upside I think natural sort of target for the markets. Where we go from there well dependent what's going on in other global market, especially US treasuries. But again, this is normal. This is you know, we've been it's very what I would say, an abnormal period. And it's been going on for decades in Japan of zero rates, negative rates, year clear control and it's abnormal. And I think that they're trying to exit that, but are obviously very very scared of the ramification at least some moments ago, the d X y unraveling. Right now one oh six point ninety one, we're really buttressed up here against the one oh seven on DXY and is clearly yet led by en dynamics. And this goes like the banking stocks. I'm sorry, you just have to look at the Bloomberg screen and it's screaming a certain level of tension out there this morning without being you know, a toxic brew of gloom. I mean, it's just the markets are speaking before this FED meeting, and it's not all the managed message of the elites. When to that point. How disruptive is the fact that the dollar has continued to strengthen and not weaken as so many people thought this year. Well and for the for the US, it's good because the stronger currency helps to limit important inflation. What we were seeing particularly stress is with emerging markets, especially in Asia, that's being double whemmed by the yen, n by the dollar. But basically we've seen many many emerging market center banks intervene to help support their own currency. We've seen surprise rate hikes, we saw that from Indonesia last month, and we've also seen countries that are cutting weights slow. They're easy because the currencies are coming under pressure. So it's to me it's really a toxic root for emerging markets. That is a height height money conditions in the US, slowing global growth slow in China, and easing cycles in emerging markets, and that's all to be a very toxic row for emerging market currency. You should have seen Tom King's face when you said toxic brew. His ears perked up and he was fully into Robert Mondel used to say, Robert Mandel would be in a lecture and he say, look, you know the Mundell triangulation and in partically ununified currency. It's one big time. This is a difficult time because people have been throwing around people have it thrown around where it's like toxic brew for quite a while. And yet we have been in a sort of uneasy equilibrium all year that's really been tapped off by a US dynamism. You go, what do you mean? I don't think it's been an an easy equilibrium. I think the markets are talking here. You know, I'm going back and forth, Doug cass here on the banks, you can rationalize us all you want. Yen one Fifty's why we're talking to win thin so win way in on that. Are things breaking down in a more material way that'll lead to more traumatic moves in effects. Well, I think was the main driver that's really taking anyone by surprise. This is the continued strength of the US economy and by that extension the US dollar, the FED and all that. I'm of the opinion that the Fed will probably get us into a recession next year. But I don't look for anything quote unquote break by break, we mean like a financial crisis, banking crisis some sort. We had to scare back in March with SVB but we found that was, you know, to me, an idiosyncratic situation with SVB and signature. So to me, you know, all the stress tests suggest that that the global financials remains fairly resilient. Now look, that's like we all know that. That doesn't mean you know, a whole lot when when when push comes to show. But I do think that we are sorting this post gred financial crisis uh so situation where yes, the institutions and and overseers and regulators are all sort of on the same page and and hopefully uh willing and able to head off a crisis. Now, well we see pockets of stress. You know, we've had frontier markets blowing up, emerging markets or Canade remain in the stress look UK, uh Europe or into recession. But you know, nothing again, nothing sort of broken. This is sort of a normal thing. I used. I'll leave this, you know with the final thought is that, let's say, normal sort of situation terms of down town going too faster in the US, that's hiking, We're gonna slow, we maybe go into recession, but then the whole cycle starts over. It's not something to worry about. I've got to leave it there. Doctor, Thank you so much, he says Brown Brothers Harriman. There's been an issue in the US side of things, first of all how deeply the US troops will get involved, but also how much aid can actually get passed to go towards supporting both Israel and Ukraine, which no one is talking about. Jennifer Flytt and covering all of this fantastic guests to really analyze it for US head of US Government Affairs at INVESCO, Jennifer, what do you make of this split that we've seen with the House proposing a separate bill to fund Israel that yesterday President Biden said, Vito right, he issued a veto threat. That's correct. Yesterday. We're going to see what the House can do. I think it's still an open question if they have the support because they have paired the Israeli funding with an offset that directly sort of impacts that Inflation Reduction Act and of the irs, and so they will lose the vast majority of Democrats. Could they gain a couple while they lose a few of their own Republicans? I think that's the question, and we'll see that play out on Thursday. What does it tell you about the nature of funding agreements. If funding Israel comes at the expense of cutting the agency served with collecting taxes, well, first, I would say this is an opening salvo for the House because they will have to negotiate no matter what with the Senate. Schumer has the majority leader in the Senate, has already stated that this is dead on arrival, so there is an expectation that there will be further negotiation. But when it comes to offsets, this is a reflection of what is happening in America right now with regard to our own domestic debt our, own deficits that we're running right now. And that's what Republicans and their districts really feel a need to answer to. Jennifer. I believe it is November first. Count it down sixteen days to November seventeenth. It's been left in the debris. We've forgotten about November seventeenth. Give us a brief of the importance of November seventeenth inside the Beltleigh, it is coming upon us very quickly. That is an excellent point and it is not lost on most members. Also, most members that want to get Ukraine funding through the House, Republican and Democratic members and the Continuing Resolution, which is that stop gap that runs out on November seventeenth that has to be extended. The Ukraine funding may have to ride on that continuing resolution. However, they work it out and we'll see that over the next week. They're currently drafting another continuing resolution in the House. Jennifer, there's real dissonance and a headline Stiffe been reading and I am trying to square them. I'd love your help. Basically, on one side, you see the fight that's escalating in Congress, it's escalating with the White House over how to get financing to back these efforts. And then on the other hand, we're talking about US troops potentially being in Gaza indefinitely after the war to keep some sort of peace. What is the appetite in the United States to have a protracted role in some of these conflicts that seem pretty intractable right now? That's right. I think there are a number of steps though that we have to get to first, right because US troops are in the region, of course, they are in Iraq there in Yemen. This was discussed a little bit at the hearing yesterday with Secretary of Blincoln and Secretary of defense Austin. They have been attacked over the last week two weeks. They have had to retaliate in those attacks, and the expectation is to deter further escalation. That I think is the immediate issue before we get to the longer term issues in Gaza. Israel is able to contain that area. There's also a really short term kind of issue with respect to President Biden's approval rating in some of the swing states. And there was a poll that recently came out that more than fifty percent of Muslim Americans used to support President Biden and now a fewer than twenty percent currently do. How significantly is this going to color the entire debate next year? That's an excellent point. I think the tension there within the Democrat Democratic Party and seeing some of those polls, but even seeing the streets right, I mean, we've seen the protrust across America, not just among Arab and Muslim Americans, but also with young people, young progressives on college campuses, and they do see that as a threat. So how they're going to diplomatically work within their own party and their own voters. I think we're starting to see that play out. Jennifer Thank you so much. Jennifer flintne with this with Invesco there on Washington and the war in the Eastern Mediterranean. Subscribe to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live every weekday starting at seven am Eastern. I'm Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can watch us live on Bloomberg Television and always I'm the Bloomberg Terminal. Thanks for listening. I'm Tom Keen, and this is BloombergSee 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Jennifer Goldsack is CEO of Digital Medicine Society (DiMe), the professional home for digital medicine. It is a global nonprofit with a mission to advance the ethical, effective, equitable, and safe use of digital technology to redefine healthcare and improve lives. Victoria talks to Jennifer about using new products and solutions to solve some of the most pressing and persistent challenges in healthcare, measuring success by how well they are caring for people every day and not by how good their products or how many they use on any given day, and how DiME can improve the way that we identify, manage, cure, and support people in a lifetime journey of health and disease. Digital Medicine Society (DiMe) (https://dimesociety.org/) Follow Digital Medicine Society (DiMe) on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/dime-society/about/?viewAsMember=true) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/_DiMeSociety). Follow Jennifer Goldsack on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jgoldsack/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Jennifer Goldsack, CEO of Digital Medicine Society, the professional home for digital medicine. Jennifer, thank you for joining me. JENNIFER: Thank you so much for having me; excited for our conversation today. VICTORIA: Wonderful, me too. And we have our Program Manager for DEI Geronda with us today. Hello. GERONDA: Hey, how's it going? I'm super excited to be on here as well. VICTORIA: Yes, me too. It's going to be a great conversation. So, Jennifer, why don't you just tell me a little bit more about the Digital Medicine Society? JENNIFER: Happy to, one of my favorite topics, Victoria. So the Digital Medicine Society, or as we affectionately refer to it as DiMe, is a global nonprofit, and our mission is to advance the ethical, effective, equitable, and safe use of digital technology to redefine healthcare and improve lives. And I think one point I'd like to make right off the bat is while we are tech and digital enthusiasts here at DiMe, we are not tech determinists. What we think about is how can we harness the promise of these new digital tools in the toolbox, these new products, these new solutions, and how can we use them to solve some of the most pressing and persistent challenges in healthcare, an industry that exists to care for people? That's what we think about all day. That's our measure of success: how well are we caring for people every day, not how good are our products or how many products can we use on any given day. VICTORIA: Right. So what did you see in the digital health space that led you to believe that something like DiMe needed to exist in the world? JENNIFER: So it's interesting. When we take a step back and think about all the experts that need to be at the table to ensure that we build a field of digital health that is worthy of our trust, in our opinion here at DiMe, we think this is the most interdisciplinary field you can imagine, and that's a bold claim. But let me play it out for you. And maybe we can think about some other interdisciplinary fields during the course of our discussion. For digital medicine to work, we need citizen scientists and cyber security experts. We need physicists, engineers, product folks, data scientists, clinical scientists, clinical care providers, healthcare executives, regulators, payors, investors, funders all to sit at the table together, all to speak a common unifying language, all to have a shared idea of what our North Star is. What are we trying to do here as we digitize healthcare, and what does good look like and for whom as we do it? And so that's the gap that the Digital Medicine Society was introduced to fill. That water cooler, if you like, where the leaders in our field can share their expertise and where we can very intentionally build a much better future for healthcare using the new digital tools in our toolbox. VICTORIA: Interesting. And I like how you pointed out for whom. [laughs] And I see digital equity is a big topic that you're focused on with the organization. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? JENNIFER: I'm happy to, and in our opinion here at DiMe, equity has to be front and center of everything we do. I think too many times we look across and considerations around diversity, equity, and inclusion; they're part of a rubric. They're a vertical. That's not what we think here at DiMe. We have to think about diversity, equity, and inclusion in everything that we do as we work to digitize healthcare. We know that there are pressing, persistent, and absolutely inexcusable inequities that exist across the burden of disease, across access to care, across the quality of care you're able to access, the care that you can afford. We know that all of those things introduce a long-standing history of inequities in health and healthcare. As we digitize the healthcare industry, it's unacceptable for us just to be thinking about, hey, as long as we don't make things worse, that's not acceptable to us. We are thinking at every turn about how can we improve the way that we identify disease, the way that we manage disease, the way we cure disease, the way that we support people in a lifetime journey of health and disease? And how can we make sure that we do that for everyone in a way we've never been able to before? So while I could talk about some of the projects that we've done that exclusively focus on advancing health equity through the use of digital tools, it's actually something we keep front and center in everything we do, in everything we talk about here at DiMe and something that we try and compel every single person in the field to think about to make sure that we seize this opportunity. GERONDA: I think that's fantastic. And something that you hit on that it's really important for us at thoughtbot is continuous improvement. And that intentionality is incredibly important when it comes to DEI efforts. And so one thing that we do have at thoughtbot is we have trainings, and we try to work toward a shared language. But we do understand that everyone is at a different point in a different journey towards DEI to be able to build and design the best products and provide businesses to our clientele. So I'd love to hear more about how your organization does consider that continuous improvement for all employees across the organization in terms of ensuring that you're enforcing shared language across the organization to be able to continue to have really great care for your people. JENNIFER: Geronda, I love this. And I think that you've touched on something that's really important, which is while we can be collectively frustrated, perhaps even angry, about the health inequity that we see on a daily basis and that we frankly have not addressed as an industry for decades and decades...and quite frankly, I think we should be frustrated; we should be angry. Not taking the time to meet people where they are as they make a commitment to designing, developing, and thinking about the business incentives that they need in order to do this work well and to be intentional is actually incredibly counterproductive. So we always start with that shared language. When we talk about inclusion in digital health, we need to not just think about all of the different vectors of inclusion and domains of diversity that we've developed as a healthcare industry, but we need to think about those vectors and domains at the intersection between healthcare and digital. And if we do nothing else beyond educate the field on what those domains and vectors are so they can be intentional, is they think about, gosh, what's the healthcare problem I want to solve for, for whom? How do I need to consider the needs of our intended users as I do that? That in and of itself is going to take us so much further than we are today. But I'd also love to learn from you guys. I love the three-part way you describe your work, that you think about designing, and then developing, and then getting the business of great product development right. How do you guys think about it? I'd love to be able to learn from you too. VICTORIA: One thing I know, speaking specifically to the intentionality that you mentioned, so if you're building an AI product and you're not intentionally thinking about DEI, you can actually build bias and problems into the code itself. So for us, and, Geronda, I want to hear your perspective here too, consulting with experts in the field, especially in DEI early and making a culture where we do have a program manager of DEI. So I've really pinged Geronda several times already this year about, like, I have this question about this. And I think having access to an expert and having access to knowledge that you should go back and check yourself is part of it. But do you have anything you want to add there, Geronda? GERONDA: I definitely agree with everything that you had said, Victoria. And also what I'll add too is that it is really thinking about in everything that we do, how do we bring DEI at the forefront? And recognizing, as I mentioned before, that everyone's in a different place. So it's not to say that if you mess up or if you didn't consider something that, you can't continuously improve. And we have this culture where I'm not going to come in as the DEI police to say, "How come you didn't consider that?" Or "Why didn't you think of that earlier?" It's more to say, "Oh, okay, well, here's how we can approach this differently." And everyone's pretty open to the feedback and the learning. And so one example that I'll give is that our website, thoughtbot.com, we're right now working towards accessibility for our website so that we can offer it more to those with disabilities, or those that are visually impaired, or hard of hearing, and offer it to be more accessible for anyone who goes to our website. And it's a learning curve for quite a few of our folks. But the learning library that's offered in there to say, okay, I may not know everything about how things impact those that may be visually impaired, but let me educate and help to develop this website in a way that's going to support them. So to Victoria's point, it's infusing DEI in every way that we can. And what I love as well is that we do have a DEI Council, and we do have a shared platform to bring about issues or have those discussions and ask the questions so that you can continuously improve yourself to make sure that you're developing and infusing DEI across the work that you do. So great question and I really feel like it's, of course, a work in progress. But we're in a really good place where we can continue to have that continuous improvement through education, and learning, and feedback to correct ourselves. VICTORIA: Yeah, I love that. I think that having the culture at least puts you in a good starting place. [laughs] I'd love to hear more about what projects you've worked on in that space, specifically, Jennifer. JENNIFER: So, first of all, I love how you talk about this idea of you need to have a culture in place that allows us to assess opportunities, that allows us to identify the kind of work we need to do based on where we are today. And then once we've assessed those opportunities, once we've identified potential pathways, we actually then have the support and the right environment to be able to implement these best practices. And there are two things that I'd love to highlight. The first is actually education resources and specifically education resources on applied digital health ethics. I think creating this culture of ethics which is absolutely inextricable from a culture of equity, is critically important. You need to have those folks on staff just like you guys do. You need to be able to go to potential end users and communities and have line items in your budget to reimburse them for their time and their expertise. You need to be able to have goals and performance metrics that actually reflect the success you're having or where you're struggling when we think about building a more inclusive environment. So that's a lot of what we try and fuel through our applied digital health ethics education. That's something that's a direct-to-learner option for folks; we're very proud of. We've had fantastic reviews and testimonials. We had tremendous faculty help us with that curriculum, and it's been really well received. And we are confident in the change that that education resource is driving in the field. The second is actually a suite of resources that we launched more recently, and this is where I can start to get really tangible. So as an organization, we convened a broad and diverse group of experts to really tackle the issue of diversity, equity, and inclusion in digitized clinical trials. And I use action-oriented words like tackle very intentionally. Unfortunately, what we see an awful lot of the time is people admiring the problem, for want of a better expression, that we'll see endless panels at conferences and op-eds, and these sorts of things being written about the current state. But what we were determined to do is own the fact that there is nothing technically prohibiting us today from deploying these digital tools and resources in the service of advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion while simultaneously addressing some of the long-standing clinical issues, while simultaneously addressing some of the regulatory science issues, while promoting access, while making sure we generate better data for better clinical decision making. This is not an either-or. This is not a trade-off. We are not limited by the technology; we are powered by the technology. It requires our intent and our commitment to actually doing this work. So I'm going to pause there to see if Geronda or Victoria you have questions on any of that. And then I can certainly go into more detail about those tools if that's interesting. GERONDA: It's super interesting. And I do have a question. But I'll kind of recap and understand that by having those different broadened expertise, you're having multiple people come together with this expertise so that you can ensure you're providing the best data to help you make those equitable decisions. Does that sound about right? JENNIFER: That's exactly right. I think that as fantastic and expert as our team are, we are merely representative of a broader community that is doing this excellent work out every single day, trying to improve the way we care for people, representing different communities, building tools. And unless we bring not only those innovators from different backgrounds to the table but also representatives of the communities we're actually working hard to serve to the table, our efforts will be inadequate. And that's why we're so committed to this multidisciplinary, pre-competitive, and collaborative work as we build our tools and resources here at DiMe. GERONDA: Yeah, and that's amazing. The question that I have for you, the follow-up question to that, is we try to look across...our company is global. We do have employees in many different countries across the globe. So trying to ensure that we have an understanding of the needs on a global scale can sometimes be challenging. Can you speak more to this multidisciplinary broadened expertise and how they might bring in perspective that can help shape your technologies or even clinical trial project in a way that supports different ethnicities across the globe and how they identify and even intersectionality of folks as well, so not just race but also LGBTQ or other races as well like socioeconomic status? JENNIFER: It's such a good question, and it's so important. And I think one of the things that I have frankly learned an enormous amount and really taken to heart are these many different domains and these many different vectors of inclusion. Now, first of all, if we start saying, look, we have to consider these 50 (I'm being facetious, intentionally so.) different considerations, then we're going to become so overwhelmed so quickly that we become absolutely ineffectual as we try and think about serving all of these different individuals. But, Geronda, you gave fantastic examples around the hard work that you've been doing even in your own website environment to make sure people who are differently abled...they might have certain vision or hearing impairments or whatever that might look like, and they can access your resources. They can interact with your team just as easily as anyone else. So I'll give you an example of something that had never occurred to me until we actually started working with a member of a community who represented this particular part of the workforce. We were talking about actually how we can use a variety of different tools to monitor respiratory illnesses and diseases. You can think about things like asthma. You can think about things like cough was an important symptom of COVID, for example. How can we use the microphones that you might find in your smartwatch or your smartphone? How might we use these to be able to monitor, predict and track disease? We'd gone through how does different socioeconomic status, how does place, how does race, or ethnicity perhaps play into your access to these different tools, your tech literacy, your trust in these different tools and products? What had not occurred to me at all...and I'm so embarrassed to say this, but you think about you can have a tool where you do all of the work around inclusive design. You can think about all of the different needs to earn the trust of the communities that you're asking to use these tools. But we hadn't contemplated how you might use these tools if someone, for example, worked in a work environment where it was incredibly loud. If you're on a building site, if you're in a warehouse, if you're working on a checkout, it doesn't matter how good the sensor is in your smartwatch that you may have been provided with because that work environment is going to absolutely drown out any signal from that stream of data. And so we need to think about all of the different ways that someone's life, and career, and their background, and social determinants affect our ability to develop and deploy tools that really can help them manage their health, improve their health, have better health outcomes. GERONDA: That's amazing. VICTORIA: That's amazing. And I wonder if you've encountered too an issue with if you're designing these applications...like I know when I was living in Washington, D.C., there were 3,000 people who don't have internet at home, don't have a computer, don't have a phone. So how would your team approach that kind of problem? JENNIFER: [laughs] I think this is the theme of our conversation. VICTORIA: [laughs] JENNIFER: With intentionality, which is, is the goal here simply to provision tools and technologies, or is our goal here to be more thoughtful about the tools that exist, that we can use? Is our goal here to think about digital infrastructure and how we should be thinking about that not just to power healthcare but also perhaps access to education, access to safe and secure bank accounts, all of these different sorts of things? We cannot assume that every single person has top-of-the-range technology, unlimited data plans; we are foolish to do so. But the first thing we need to do is actually ask and understand what access to technology looks like and not just assume it's an affordability issue. Maybe it's a trust issue. You have to understand the root cause before you can work to solve something. I'd also offer up some other data that I always find compelling and important as we have these conversations. While we know there are large portions of the population who don't have access to what some of us, unfortunately, when we're moving quickly, just assume that everyone has, there are also horribly underrepresented populations, represented populations that do have access to these technologies. Some recent data actually showed that one-third of homeless individuals in California do have a smartphone. Let's actually just pause and think about that for a moment. You can't get access to benefits or brick-and-mortar healthcare because you have to go and fill in all of your information if you don't have a home. But if you have a smartphone, which presumably many of these folks have realized that even at some of the hardest times in their life, they actually need that to stay connected in today's digital economy, that this is actually a way and a vector for us to reach them, for us to capture information and data about what it is they need, not just to improve their healthcare but to get supported into a more safe and sustainable environment with more security where we can actually support their health in a much more holistic way. It also can connect them with care, whether that's mental healthcare or whatever their needs are in any given moment, that if we were relying on the traditional brick and mortar system, we'd be unable to capture. So this goes back to two things. First of all, don't assume. Don't assume that people do or don't have technology, and if they don't, don't assume you understand what the root cause actually is. The second point is don't think about these digital tools as limiting factors; think about the ways that we can use them to overcome so many of the challenges that we've faced in the way we care for people for decades and decades. VICTORIA: I love that you bring that point up. I volunteered for many years with an application called HopeOneSource, which is a mobile app for people who are experiencing homelessness to get access to services that they need. And I know it might have changed over time, but it was like 80% of people who are experiencing homelessness do have a cell phone. And partly in the United States, there is a subsidy. If you're under a certain income level, you can get a free cell phone. But it's very easy to have your cell phone stolen or to get lost. And the impermanency of the device is also an issue. So I think it's actually, like you said, you don't want to make assumptions about what people have and what they don't. And you do want to bring the intention and understand what it's really like because that will change how you build in things like security and two-factor authentication and things like that. So... JENNIFER: That's exactly right. And also, what are some of the infrastructure things we can do? You mentioned the subsidies for folks who are low-income. But then we want people to start transmitting confidential and private information about their health in order to access the highest quality care possible. Are we creating environments where there is access to secure connection environment? So they're not using public Wi-Fi where they actually might be more susceptible to harm due to sort of misuse of that data if it falls into the hands of the wrong folks. These are all of the different things we need to be thinking about. That's not to slow us down or to dampen our enthusiasm for the opportunities that digitization provides to improve the way we care for people. But again, it comes back to...I think what's emerging is almost a theme of our discussion, which is the need to be intentional. GERONDA: I love what you said about not making assumptions because I'm a DEI practitioner, but I always tell people I'm not perfect. [laughs] And so my bias comes in sometimes. I sometimes will assume that I might know the answer to something or what somebody may be experiencing because I may be incredibly passionate about the LGBTQ+ community, which I'm a part of. And it's reminding myself that I can't assume or let my own biases or own feelings towards certain things to steer my decision-making. I really have to be super open and objective to what the facts are telling and get those other experiences from other people. So I continuously check my bias, and I continuously try not to make those assumptions which can be hard at times. And while I know everyone at thoughtbot thinks I'm perfect, I'm the best, [laughter] it's just not true. VICTORIA: I think it is true. [laughter] GERONDA: There you go. JENNIFER: Geronda, I so appreciate you sharing that, and I think it probably is giving everyone listening the same experience that I am having right now, which is you owning that and being willing to share that. Immediately cascading through my mind...and now all of the assumptions that I come to the table with, and all of the ways that I think about things and those hot topics that are unique to me and my lived experience, and what I've been exposed to. And on the one hand, we should never dismiss that. On the other hand, the definition of being inclusive is to go out to folks with those different viewpoints. And one of the things I see increasingly featuring in these sorts of domains of diversity is political views. And you think, gosh, how has this even become a thing in the way that we consider caring for people? But it's so divisive. And I come to the table with all of my thoughts about these kinds of things. But what's serving us about our lived experience and about the passions that drive us all to try and create better products and a better and more inclusive future, and what's not? And how can we humbly acknowledge that and really listen and hear what others are telling us? GERONDA: Right. Exactly, exactly. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. VICTORIA: If I'm a clinical researcher and I'm about to design an experiment, let's say, how can I use the resources at DiMe to help inform my opinion and help bring in that inclusivity, which I want? JENNIFER: So, Victoria, great question. [laughter] I'm teed up to answer this one. So I think the first thing is, and, Geronda, this is something that you mentioned earlier, which is you don't do a 45-minute brainstorm before you get going, check a box, and say you did it. It's a continual process, and it's a process of continual improvement. So when we describe this, we would discuss the entire clinical trials lifecycle. So, first of all, there are DEI considerations, even in the kind of question you want to answer. If you are doing clinical research because you want to develop a new molecule, a new pill, or something, for example, what community will you be serving? What's the problem we're trying to solve for? Are we trying to add a me-too drug to a population that's already well-served? Or are we actually thinking about, gosh, there's this underrepresented population? There's a disease state where we've struggled to break through. We believe that we can deploy these digital tools in order to really effect change here. So it starts as early as what is the problem you're trying to solve for? What is your research question? Then each stage as you think about, gosh, what are the tools that I might want to use in order to answer this question? Who are the people that we could possibly serve through the development of this new drug, for example? Great, then we take seriously our responsibility of making sure that every single individual who participates in our trial reflects and represents that broader population, that we are going to take inclusivity seriously so that when we have an answer to our research question, we know that what we know about the safety of a new drug and what we know about the effectiveness of a new drug applies equally well to every member of the population. At that point, we're asking ourselves questions about as we think about parts of the clinical protocol, so the different steps that we work through in order to safely administer a new therapy that's part of the trial, as we think about capturing the information we need in order to determine whether it's safe and effective, are we setting that up to be as safe as effective for everyone? Are we able to design the trial in such a way that the burden of participation isn't a barrier for certain members of the community? If we're picking digital tools to do things like remote patient monitoring...so imagine for anyone who has a smartwatch the green light on the back of your watch that's measuring your heart rate. Unfortunately, some of those products work differently across different skin tones. Have you done the work to make sure that you're selecting a tool that is going to give you equally trustworthy information for every single person? These are all of the things step by step that you should think about as you are developing a clinical trial. We have tool after resource after checklist to help you do this in a really accessible way. We organize them so you can find them really easily based on either what stage am I at and what can I do today to be more diverse, and more equitable, and more inclusive in the way that I'm developing new medicines? We also allow you to find these tools and resources based on a particular digital product. So if, for example, you think that you might be able to use, and we haven't said the words yet, so it's probably time, AI or machine learning to better identify a more diverse patient population that you could enroll into your trial, how are you thinking about catching potential bias that might take your good intentions and actually render them almost useless because you didn't identify bias in the algorithm, for example? So all of those tools and resources, and there are over 60 of them available, are open access. They're free to download, use them, interactive checklists, considerations documents, tools, and resources that help you act today as soon as you make a decision about doing clinical research that benefits all people. GERONDA: And it almost sounds like, in a way, that this resource could be helpful for many other industries as well because although it's tied to clinical trials, the considerations and process that you're taking to start to think through those DEI elements that checklist can be helpful across many different disciplines. Would you say that's correct? JENNIFER: I would. Now, Geronda, our superpower, is getting the digitization of healthcare right. And that's a big enough task that while there are other pressing areas, we will not stray into those. But I think you've hit the nail on the head. When we think about getting access to education, for example, or access to safe housing, or any other kinds of benefits, and we can think about how some of these digital tools can overcome many of the different barriers to access that different communities face. Absolutely, all of these different principles can apply. And in fact, we actually think that's really important. We talk a lot about harmonization in the work that we do. There are folks who have product portfolios that span different industries. When we think about really trying to hammer home the need to be intentional, to make sure that as we digitize the healthcare industry, we are bringing everyone with us, we should avoid, wherever possible, having unique or special considerations. Ultimately, these are all the same humans that we serve in other industries. We are trying more than ever to meet people where they are than insisting they come to us or come to the clinic, for example. All of these principles apply equally well. And if we do that harmonization well...and this comes back to the idea of culture that we were talking about. This just gets embedded into the culture of developing products for every single person, regardless of whether that's an educational product, or a healthcare product, or a financial product. We should be thinking about these things regardless of how we're striving to help and support people. GERONDA: I love that. VICTORIA: I love that. And I wonder, when you were developing these products for clinicians or for healthcare providers, was there anything surprising in your initial research and discovery when building these things? JENNIFER: Yes. And I would say that technology is no longer the barrier. There is nothing that we need a product to do, whether that's the way we account for, right? You're not always going to eliminate it. But the way that we account for, for example, bias in the way that we capture and process data, if you acknowledge it, you can do the necessary statistical interpretation. And then you can actually be well-informed in your decision-making. There's nothing either about the data, about the form factors, about battery life, about the performance of these tools that is stopping us from building and deploying solutions that work for everyone starting today, starting immediately. So then, what is the barrier? The barrier is a knowledge gap, a skills gap, an incentives gap. And that's really what we've been hammering to address. And if you do look at our DEI resources, especially for digitized clinical trials, we try and think about all of those gaps and support people, whether it's through, here, let us educate you on actually where some of the risks are, some of the new vectors of inclusion or domains of diversity, especially at the intersection of digital and health. Let us support you with tools and resources, and guides for how to do this. And then let us give you data and let us give you things like a market opportunity calculator, which is something else that we've created that will actually give you the business case to be more inclusive in the way that you develop digital products for use in clinical trials and the way you deploy them to support better research. That's really what we're focused on. And so the surprise almost is that the tech isn't limiting us in any way. The flip side of that being we are not going to tech our way out of this. It comes down to humans and our decisions and how we develop and deploy these tools in the service of better health. VICTORIA: That makes sense to me, and it makes me think about there's like a moral obligation or value that you can apply to DEI, but there's also a financial aspect. [laughs] And if you put a lot of effort into building an app, for example, and don't think about inclusivity, and you get to the end and think, oh, now I have to go back and make it accessible, that can be a lot of rework. It can be a lot of cost, if not even a legal liability and financial liability, I would imagine, in the healthtech sector. JENNIFER: That's exactly right. I couldn't have said any better, Victoria. [laughs] VICTORIA: [laughs] It's like, you are morally and legally obligated in many cases to include people. And it's better to just start from the beginning and start from the beginning and knowing what we're trying to do. JENNIFER: 100%. And I was trying not to pile on because I think the statement just stands alone. We are morally obligated. In some cases, we are legally obligated. There are emerging regulations certainly in the clinical trials environment about having more representative samples in order for you to get regulatory approval, for example. One of those regulations is moving slowly, which is always frustrating and disappointing. But given the moral imperative, given the emerging regulations, given that finally, this is more at the forefront of conversations, you've got to think about the gymnastics that are happening to continue to avoid doing this. And that's a little bit of the pressure that we want to apply. And so when we talk about the fact that there's no technological reason for not doing this, and when we have tried to provide the tools and resources to actually put these tools into practice, the only remaining question is, are you going to do it? And that's a big question. And as a field, we've not been terribly good at leaning into that previously. We'll talk about it all day. We'll admire the problem of inequity all day. We haven't been good enough at acting. And I'm hoping we're at a tipping point. VICTORIA: Great. And it sounds like now with DiMe, there's no excuse. All the information is there for you. [laughter] JENNIFER: That was exactly what we tried to do. That was the challenge that we gave ourselves and this extraordinary team. And the different individuals and organizations that came to the table to do this they set the standard high. And I'm so proud of their sort of possession, of their courage, and their tenacity in saying, "We are going to serve up absolutely everything that's needed. We're going to present it in a way that it's almost impossible not to find what you need for every person who's coming with this question." We set the standard high, and I'm incredibly proud of how well we delivered on that. VICTORIA: What does success look like for DiMe in the next six months or in the next five years? JENNIFER: What is it? Is it a Bill Gates quote? Is it...you sort of overestimate what you can do in 6 months and underestimate what you'll do in 10 years, something along those lines. And the intention is there, though. Anyone who knows me well will probably say I've never underestimated anything in my life. I'm always pushing for the next thing. Let's come back to this notion that the tech is not the limiting factor. And we're facing a really interesting moment in healthcare where the current environment is simply not sustainable. There are not enough clinicians to provide care or conduct research. We've had an expensive healthcare system for a long time. But the prices are not sustainable when you think about how much health insurance is going up relative to inflation, when you think about the out-of-pocket costs that people are facing when you think about the fact that there's not a single healthcare executive who's sleeping well at night because they can't staff their units, and their supply chain costs are incredibly high. And they're worried about the sustainability of their hospital, especially in rural and underserved areas. Business, as usual, is not an option. So in the next six months, I think we're going to keep pushing along. But in that five-year window, I think we are going to see a fundamentally different way that we care for people in the healthcare environment and that we conduct clinical trials. No longer is healthcare going to be built around the clinic. That's not to say they're going to go away. There are, of course, going to be times where you need to see a clinician in person, where you need to have a procedure, where you need to have some lab work or imaging done. But so much of this can be translated into the home, can use tools to extend the knowledge and expertise of clinicians so that we can better care for people, all people, by meeting them where they are. I think we're going to see a fundamentally different kind of healthcare, different kinds of clinical research built around the patient, not the clinic. And part of that is going to be redefining what good healthcare even is. Currently, good healthcare is once you turn up at the clinic already sick, sometimes really sick, facing a catastrophic and likely very expensive outcome, we do our best. That's good healthcare. I really think we're going to drive towards a future where these new flows of data and these new technologies are going to actually allow us to try and mitigate disease earlier, to intervene earlier, to catch all people who are at risk earlier in their health journey. And the great thing about that is it offers the opportunity to define healthcare differently. All of a sudden, good healthcare isn't; how good are we at intervening when you're sick? But how good are we at keeping you well and keeping you out of the healthcare system? I also feel strongly that it is no longer going to be enough to just raise the top end of healthcare and provide the best care to the people who are able to afford it, that we are going to start to embed metrics around equity into our evaluation of good healthcare. And the sooner we do that, the better because every time we look at those numbers now, they are astonishingly bad. VICTORIA: Yeah. And it's making me think about, you know, in five years, if we continue with the trend of global warming, they're also predicting more pandemics, more disease. And it seems like we are going to have to reimagine how we do healthcare because the current path isn't sustainable. JENNIFER: Exactly right. Exactly right. And the sad thing about all of this is that the burden of things like climate change, the burden of pandemics falls on those communities and those individuals who have been underrepresented and underserved in healthcare for the longest. It increases the burden of disease and health stress on folks who have consistently carried the highest burden of disease, been part of the highest risk categories. Not only do we have to get better at delivering care to all people reducing the burden of disease, we have to do it where actually those challenges through all of those external pressures, Victoria, are going to be becoming worse. VICTORIA: And it reminds me of another term I've heard for underrepresented, which is historically excluded, which I think really applies here. So that's fascinating. JENNIFER: Because it is what it is. VICTORIA: Yeah, right? Like, that's what it is. So I think it's wonderful that's what you're working on. And let's see if you could go back in time to when you first started DiMe Society; what advice would you give yourself now that it's been three years and you've come a long way? JENNIFER: [laughs] Sleep more. [laughter] I don't know, when I look in the mirror these days, there's an old lady that I'm sure wasn't there at the beginning of all this. But I think that's not the spirit of the question you were asking, Victoria. I wish we'd been bolder sooner. And we've never shied away from tackling the hardest problems. We started with this bold mission and vision. People would ask us when we launched DiMe, you know, "Gosh, are you really focused across individual health promotion, across healthcare delivery, across public health, and across clinical research?" And we said, "Absolutely," because if we don't tackle it all together, we're simply going to create new silos in the digital era. And we're never going to move towards this reimagined healthcare system, a new healthcare system, one that cares for everyone and where access to research is even harder than access to care. With these new flows of data in the digital era, we want to do it together. So it's not that we weren't bold, but the way now we make strong statements that we've always believed and that we've always been proud of around the imperative to be inclusive around the demand for high-quality evidence to drive trust around the fact that none of this is a tech issue. It's a human issue. I wish we had gone there sooner. I think it is serving us well. I think that the professionals that we work with across industry respond to it. They want to be part of this journey. They want to build a better healthcare system. And so, while we've always been, I think, bold and courageous in the vision that we've held and the work we've done, giving voice to it in a way that really reflects our vision and our passion has been so well received by our community. And they have stepped up to do this work incredibly well. I just wish we'd gone there sooner. That's the only thing I would have done differently. VICTORIA: I think that's great advice, especially for founders who are starting out in a space like this, to really stand by their convictions and be bold about it. [chuckles] Like, this is what you believe in, and other people will connect to it if it's right, so I love that. And we're getting towards the end of our time here too. So I want to make sure I can pass it to Geronda if you have any other final questions for our guest here today. GERONDA: More a comment in that I think that learning more about your organization and perusing some of the tools that you offer and the checklist that you offer...and it's such great work. And in some ways...and I'm trying to get the best way to say this. But in some ways, it's so clear of, like, this is what you can consider. This is what you should do. Although the work is not easy to do, it's really a helpful guideline for how you can start to think differently. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness that was put into a lot of these resources that you're giving out and just where you are in your trajectory as well because DEI work is not easy work. And you sometimes...it can impact you emotionally. It can impact you mentally sometimes. But when you're continuing to go after what you know is needed and the intentionality of things, it really is super helpful. So although I said I didn't have a question, and I just had a comment, I lied. I do have a question. [laughter] My question to you is, in doing a lot of this work, ensuring that DEI is infused in healthtech, all the work that you do and that your team does, how do you just navigate and manage your well-being, your mental health, your emotional health as you continue to do all this work? JENNIFER: It's such a great question. And when you said, Geronda, that this can sometimes be really emotional, I heard a statistic actually from a colleague of mine, Ricki Fairley, who's the CEO of Touch, Breast Cancer, and she was telling me that cancer affecting women under 35, Black women under 35 are diagnosed with cancer at a rate twice that of White women and die at a rate three times higher than White women. And, I mean, you hear that statistic, and it just takes the wind out of you. And it would be really easy to hide from that because it's hard to hear, sometimes too hard. The way that we handle sort of all of this as a team is we square up to these data, and then we celebrate one another. We celebrate our community when we are able to make positive change, even if it's incremental change. Even if sometimes you have those moments where you really move the needle, you have those other days or those other initiatives where you feel like you're crawling on your hands and knees to gain inches. But to celebrate that every moment and to remind ourselves the work is returning value to those people that we all get up every morning to try and serve, that it might be hard, but we're making progress. And that is, I think, the way that, as a team, we stay positive, we stay productive, and that we're able to balance, frankly, the exposure to the reality of some of these issues. GERONDA: I think that's great, having a community even within the workplace. It's so crucial because you spend most of your time at work, as we all know. [laughs] And there's a lot that just goes on across the world all the time, and being able to just talk it out. We have employee resource groups for people to come together with common identities and just talk through things that are impacting them. And so I really think that's great that you're able to just be honest with how you're feeling but also celebrating those important positive moments because sometimes we can focus a lot on the negative. So I really love that you bring the positive aspects of that as well. VICTORIA: Yes, thank you for sharing, and it comes back to the intention. Like, we're all on the same page. We all have this intention of solving this problem. So we're in it together in a way. So, Jennifer, are there any final thoughts or takeaways you want to leave our listeners with today? JENNIFER: No, this was a fantastic conversation. I think we've drawn out this theme of intentionality that will serve all of us very well. Geronda, I love the final question about how do we keep our own sort of emotional state and mental health solid as we do this hard work? It's the perfect note to end on. So Victoria, Geronda, thank you so much for having me on. This has been just a wonderful conversation. I've really enjoyed it. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining and spending time with us today. JENNIFER: Yes, I very much appreciate it. This was an awesome conversation. VICTORIA: All right. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Jennifer Goldsack.

Transcript: CHRIS NEWBOLD: Good afternoon, well-being friends. Welcome to the Path To Well-Being In Law, an initiative of the Institute For Well-Being In Law. I'm your cohost, Chris Newbold, executive vice president of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. Most of our listeners know why we're here. Our goal is to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the well-being space within the legal profession. And in the process, we're working to build and nurture a national network of well-being advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. Let me be the first to introduce my co-host, Bree Buchanan. Bree, how are you? BREE BUCHANAN: I'm doing great, Chris, thank you. I am so excited, you know, about this episode because we have just increased our staff at IWIL. I'll let you finish, but I'm just excited. CHRIS: Well, I was going to say that there's a couple notable things about this, right? Bree, you and I have been at this for least going well beyond five years now, but a couple things that I think are really unique about this particular podcast, first of all, our 25th podcast. I'm totally excited about just the incredible people that we have met on this journey. It's a reflection point, so to speak. I just think it's been a great ride for us as we've introduced people from around the country and welcome in new listeners to the podcast. BREE: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. CHRIS: It has. And then I think the big point and I think maybe a little bit of historical perspective is good to share with the listeners today that obviously the Institute for Well-being in Law started now just over 18 months ago. Really the intent was as a natural outgrowth of the National Task Force on Well-Being in Law was that we wanted to look toward a greater level of sustainability for the movement. Bree and I and many other leaders in the movement got together and we ultimately decided that the creation of the institute as a national think tank to be able to work and lead efforts on a national basis was the move. CHRIS: A lot of that was with the intent of being able to hire a full-time professional staff that could work on this issue, not just for the short-term, but for the long-term. Again, without further ado, we are super excited about today's guest, which is our friend Jennifer DiSanza, who is the first executive director of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I know that we are really excited to introduce her to our listeners, talk about the vision, talk about where the organization's going, talk about her own personal journey as it relates to well-being. CHRIS: Bree, why don't I kick it to you for an introduction of somebody who I think will be a pivotal leader, spokesperson. I know she's thoughtful. Again, we're just super excited to have Jennifer on board. BREE: I'm going to let Jennifer talk about her background, but I'm going to talk about as way of introduction how we got her to us. Like you said, there was this whole plan of how we were performing IWIL and then be able to fundraise and then be able to hire staff, and Jennifer's the first one of that. We went out and did a national search, really cast the net wide and far. We had over 80 applications to the position. It took us a good number of months to go through all of those, many interviews. Ultimately, I'd say at least it was a six month search process, we found our Jennifer DiSanza. Jennifer, we're finally going to let you talk now. JENNIFER DISANZA: I have to say, after that introduction, I feel like an athlete, like I should have had play on music or I should have some theme music, because that was quite the introduction. Thank you, both. BREE: It was really a buildup. What I was thinking is that in the old radio shows that they had the button you could hit with the applause. All that too. JENNIFER: I heard it all in my head, Bree, so it was good. But no, I appreciate both of you so much. It was a long process, but one of the things that attracted me to this, and I've told this story, so those people who know me who are listening know this story, is that I was really looking for an opportunity to be entrepreneurial. But I didn't necessarily want to go out on my own. For those people who can work for themselves, that's great. When this position was posted, I had been following IWIL because my background is in legal education and nonprofit work. I'd been following the organization and just wonderful things that I knew about it. JENNIFER: I had friends on the advisory board involved in different ways. I really believed in the mission. I have never felt so strongly about something as I did when I saw IWIL was hiring an executive director. What brought it home for me is so many people sent it to me because they knew what I wanted to do. It was a confluence of events, I feel. I am so grateful to the search committee, to the board, because I really feel like I'm doing my life's work here at IWIL. BREE: Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, Jennifer, we're going to start you off the way we have started off all of our guests, which is to ask you about what are the experiences in your life that drive your passion for well-being in the legal profession and clearly you have a passion? Tell us about that. JENNIFER: Again, it really comes from my background and experiences. A lot of times you go through your career and you're doing things that you're well-positioned for, that you're well-skilled for, but not necessarily something that drives you past just an everyday job. From a personal standpoint, it really came to me when I went to law school oh so many years ago. Actually, not to date myself, this is our 20th anniversary from graduating. It's been 20 years since I was in law school. But from a personal standpoint, even before that, I struggled with depression and anxiety throughout my life, but law school was the point where it was at the most difficult. JENNIFER: I faced my most difficult challenges. I chose to go to school part-time while working full-time and getting my master's degree. There were a lot of different layers on that, but I really didn't have the resources. I actually didn't even have the language at that time. I was very much of the standpoint, "I got to get through it, I got to get through it," without really thinking about what toll it was taking on me mentally and on my health just in general. Well, I didn't realize the context. I was a first gen student. I never had met anyone that went to law school. I really thought it was going to be like graduate school. JENNIFER: I'd go a couple nights a week. I'd do my homework on the weekends. After being in law school education for almost 20 years, I realize that's an impossible thought. I incorrectly assumed that. It's no secret to those people who know me that I really did not enjoy my law school experience. CHRIS: It's so interesting when you go back and you talk to folks who have went through that experience. Some love it, some it was a terrible experience. That forms a lot of how you think about coming to the law and making some decisions about, "Boy, did I make the right decision here?" Jennifer, I think one of the things that's interesting I know as on the hiring committee that we thought was really pertinent was your career in legal education. Can you tell us a little bit more about your professional journey after graduating from law school that you think has prepared you for taking the leadership baton here and running with it? JENNIFER: Sure. I think most people are like, "Well, if you hated law school so much or didn't enjoy the experience, why did you stay there for an additional 20 years?" But the reality is that I was lucky enough to have someone at my law school who I could go talk to, and it made my experience better and I realized that I could continue doing that. I could be that person for other people. I had been in human resources, in manufacturing and well-being at that time, it was the late '90s, early 2000s, I had safety as part of my human resources responsibility and it was really about physical safety. There was no holistic approach to employee well-being. JENNIFER: But I took what I learned as an HR manager to law school student affairs. I worked at three different ABA-Approved schools. You get students. They come in as you find them, basically. Some of them have preexisting issues, whether it's mental health or substance use, whatever it is. But I knew once they got to law school, whatever it was either started in law school or became much more exasperated while they were in law school. Really over the years of working in legal education, I tried to focus on ways to make the experience better. JENNIFER: The majority of my time during those almost 20 years was counseling students or developing programs to support students in finding out better ways to handle their stress or their anxiety, providing accommodations for students. But I also think one of the things that's sort of a catch 22 in the legal education world is that we're preparing people to have resilience. I was just having this conversation with a law firm well-being person last week. Resilience in itself says there's something you have to be resilient about. There's going to be something difficult in this process. I'm not saying law is easy or should be easy, but we're creating this expectation that they're already going to find difficulty in it. JENNIFER: Well, we had to, in the law school environment, create these programs to deal with life after law school. The reason I love IWIL is we want to fix those issues. We want to look at it and say, "What's causing the burnout? What's causing the turnover so we can make it better?" Even with my last position for the last three years, I was working in financial wellness issues with law students, it's also better to understand the financial pressure students went in, why they went into maybe big law or different world, different jobs. JENNIFER: They went to law school and they were willing to sacrifice their health because they wanted to make a lot of money or because they were hoping for public service loan forgiveness. It really is this confluence of events, like I said, to bring me here now. BREE: Jennifer, I think one of the things that was so attractive for me with you, many things, but also this law school background because we really are there for the groups of law students, judges, and lawyers. And because law students, of course, it's corny, but they are the future of the profession and we know that the youngest lawyers suffer the greatest level of behavioral health problems, it just seemed like a really great way for us to ensure that we're focusing on this critical group. Listen, I've got another question for you just about how you're kind of doing, what's going on now. BREE: I'll date this episode. We're in August. You've been with us for two months now. You've been through a strategic planning session that we had in Chicago with a board a couple of weeks ago. Talk to us now about what are your priorities for IWIL over the next couple of years, which, to be fair, is not just your priorities, it's the board's too, but talk a little bit about that. JENNIFER: The strategic planning session was really eye-opening for me, not because there was a lot of new information, but just having this group of well-being advocates in the room committed to improving the profession. It was inspiring actually. One of the things, probably the most important thing that we focused on during that strategic planning is really focusing on where we can have the most impact. It's nothing new, but we helped articulate it. We're already doing education and awareness. JENNIFER: We have wonderful programming through our biennial conference and our Well-Being Week in Law. We are getting started with a research agenda that's very exciting. And our policy work. We have wonderful initiatives coming up in our policy work and our technical assistance. We work with state task force, getting them up and running, supporting them, looking at opportunities to comment on policy change, that's really one of my priorities, and making sure we are involved in every conversation that impacts well-being in the legal profession. We need to be the thought leaders in this. I want to see those ongoing research projects. JENNIFER: I want to see those comments. I want to see us out in front of everything and being the thought leader in that. I also want to be the gathering space for well-being advocates. I want them to come to us for those questions on how we can support them. CHRIS: That was a great day for us, right? Because I think for the listener's perspective, a lot of us... Obviously IWIL was formed during the pandemic, right? While we probably have spent hundreds of hours together on Zoom calls, the ability to be physically together and meet people that you feel like you know, but you never know people until you're physically with them, right? It just was a fantastic experience to bond with people in a physical setting. Again, Jennifer, I'll just kind of come back to the notion of, I think it's fair to say that going into that retreat, your vision of where you thought the movement was heading was probably a little bit blurry. CHRIS: Coming out of that session, do you feel better about what that outlook looks like relative to where IWIL and other constituencies will be able to put their time, talent, bandwidth, and resources to advance the movement and to advance the culture shift in a more accelerated way? JENNIFER: Absolutely. As I have said over and over again, those first couple months, I really felt like I was drinking through a fire hose. And that's typical of any new job. You're getting up to speed and there's so many things. But I really feel good about where we landed because one of the most common things I hear is, "What are you doing, or what are you going to support?" They want deliverables and they want action items. I feel like defining those pillars as we did and coming up with action items is something that is important. JENNIFER: It also helps to hold us accountable in what we dom and that is really important. We have sustaining donors that we need to be accountable. We have the general public. We have our volunteers. We need to be held accountable, and I feel like we can do that. CHRIS: Jennifer, one of the things that I think is just really interesting about your role is in some respects, our "business model" is premised on the notion of effective volunteer management. Obviously, I mean, one of the things that I think has been one of the great accomplishments of IWIL thus far in its kind of short history has been the manner in which we've offered an on ramp to people interested in this issue to become more involved. CHRIS: Whether it's through a committee structure, whether it's through service on a state task force and then connecting with IWIL through that, whether it's through participation in the annual conference or Well-Being Week in Law, we have created an opportunity for people to come together. I just would be curious on your opinion as to how has it been for you to meet them, that volunteer base, and how important is that group obviously to what we're trying to do relative to our mission? JENNIFER: Well, we do not exist without our volunteers. I mean, it's as plain as simple. I am one person, right? I am one paid staff member. But my listening tour in these first few months has been the best part of this job, because I've become connected to so many of these well-being advocates that are out there. Not only they have their primary professional career, that they have committed their time and talent to moving this shift forward. I'm just amazed by all the time and thoughtful comments and the way they have embraced me, I mean, it's just been phenomenal. JENNIFER: I'm so grateful to them. I would also like to thank those of you, those volunteers out there, who have been very transparent with me and saying they love being a part of IWIL, but they need more focus, which is one of the reasons why we needed a strategic plan. It really helped inform that. BREE: I think one of the things that seems so unique, you look at other think tanks, a couple of people had an idea that they want to dig into and they form a think tank and go forward. We did this, but we also opened up the doors to bring everybody we could along. Just so people know, between the state task forces that we work with regularly and the committees, we have over 200 volunteers that are working with IWIL monthly. It's a very large, very active volunteer base. BREE: Jennifer, we're going to go ahead and take a break at this point in time to hear from one of our sponsors, and then we'll be back and continue our podcast. We'll talk a little bit about DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging with Jennifer and how that fits into the whole well-being puzzle. — Advertisement: You expect most things to be easily available online. So why should your malpractice insurance be any different? Your job as an attorney is already hard enough. You deserve an application that's easy. With ALPS, you can apply, view rates, and accept your policy 100% online and all in about 20 minutes. Get back to your practice faster and add valuable time back to your day. Want to talk to a real person? Call, chat, email. ALPS is here for you. — BREE: Welcome back, everybody, and we have the most special guest today, our new executive director, Jennifer DiSanza. Jennifer, tell us about... The first thing that the IWIL board did was pass a resolution, a statement, a policy around diversity, equity, and inclusion and how imperative it is to be looking at those issues alongside contemporaneously with the work that we're doing on well-being, because you can't really do one without the other. BREE: Could you talk a little bit about your views on that? I know that you've heard a lot of discussion about this at the board level. What are you thinking about the future of where we meld, raise awareness, et cetera, these two things of DEI belonging and well-being? JENNIFER: I think most importantly that this has been something that was articulated very early to me in the interview process. I have seen it play out throughout my time here. It's great that we're including diverse points of view and supporting them, but you hit the nail on the head when you talked about belonging, right? There's enough room at the table for everyone. We need to make sure that we are not only including people, but we have a place where there's psychological safety. We have a place that people feel comfortable and they feel belonging, because we know that's key to well-being, right? We know that belonging is important. JENNIFER: That is on the premise of everything we do. We know that DEI and B has come to the forefront lately, but there was definitely a struggle to get there. But we have a unique opportunity as we build this movement and create it to really create it as a foundational premise of every single thing that IWIL does, that we have an eye to ensuring this inclusivity and this belonging. Because without it, we're not serving all our stakeholders, we're not serving the profession, and we're not holding to the policy that we stated we would do. We have to live it. BREE: Right. Well said. So well said. I accept that I am privileged white woman, cisgendered lawyer, and I have to be continuously vigilant about these issues. It doesn't just happen without really paying consistent close attention to it. I'm just thrilled that you are here to help us in that endeavor. I have no doubt that you will keep us on that path. JENNIFER: Thank you. I am excited about the opportunity, but I also am glad that we have such a wide variety of volunteers who can keep us accountable on this point too. CHRIS: The reality is, if you've met one lawyer, you've met one lawyer, right? We all come from perspectives that are unique, different, all across the spectrum. Again, this notion of how people struggle for inclusivity and belonging in our profession is something that just has to be at the forefront of everything that we do. I was proud as part of our strategic planning process that we continue to, again, ensure that we're looking through the right lens in our discussions. We always are striving to be a little bit better than we were previously, because sometimes even the most well-intentioned folks can sometimes have a little bit of blind spots here and there, right? JENNIFER: Absolutely. I agree. CHRIS: Jennifer, one of your first achievements was a recently announced partnership and establishment with Thomson Reuters. Can you tell our listeners about what that entailed and how that came about? JENNIFER: Sure. This was actually very exciting for me because I was pleasantly surprised when within the first few weeks of me starting with IWIL, I was able to connect with Thomson Reuters. And more importantly, I was able to reconnect with somebody who I went to law school with. Bree had already established the relationship, but I was able to connect with Ina Camelo, who is leading the space in their global large law firm area. She and I went to law school together. She was year or two behind me, but it was really nice to have this conversation with her about all the wonderful things that Thomson Reuters and IWIL can do together. JENNIFER: This is different than a traditional sponsorship. They have unique areas that we can leverage, whether it's their research, whether it's their practical law area, even marketing and technology. I believe that this partnership might be example moving forward of some of the things that IWIL can do. I feel like the sky's the limit, and it's just harnessing all of that and figuring it out. We've been having continuing meetings with them about some of the work that we can do together. It's very exciting. BREE: Absolutely. Jennifer, what else interests you and excites you and I'll say worries you, of course, because as an executive director, you do a lot of worrying about the future of the well-being in law movement? JENNIFER: Well, obviously being a startup has its pros and cons. As I talked about earlier with diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, we have the opportunity to build something from the ground up and thinking about all the pieces. We have the opportunity to be the preeminent think tank on well-being in the legal profession. We also have to expect there's going to be growing pains. As I talked about drinking out of a fire hose and trying to figure out where we're going to focus our energies, we only have that staff of one. JENNIFER: We do have dedicated board members, advisory board members, and volunteers, but we need to make sure IWIL is sustainable. It's an ongoing process to make sure we're thoughtful as we grow and how we fund initiatives to make sure that we're here for the long-term. It's very exciting from a startup perspective, but we also have to be thoughtful about where we put our energies and time. CHRIS: Jennifer, I think one of the things that's always interesting about the roles that we have as leaders is obviously working to leave the profession a little bit better than we found it. As we think about your tenure and our mission, if we were to look forward a decade, if we were to do a good job around changing attitudes, hearts, and minds, how will the legal profession be different? JENNIFER: In my dream scenario, I want legal employers to set the standard on employee well-being. I want to see organizations highlighted for their employee first approach to the work environment. I really would love to see the profession to be able to put up against some of the other professions that are already doing a lot of work in well-being. I'd love to see those shifts. We're seeing these issues debated right now that were accelerated by the pandemic, remote work, vacation. But the truth is, the issues we're coming regardless. I want to make sure the legal workforce is able to be agile as these things change and generations change as they come up into the workforce. JENNIFER: I want the legal profession to be able to weather any future crises like a pandemic because their employees feel psychological safety. I also want law schools to embed well-being from day one. I don't want it to be an afterthought or trying to fit it in here where you can. This is not a function that can come easily because there are a lot of rules and regulations, but it needs to be inextricably tied to the curriculum culture. Because as we said earlier, law schools are preparing people for the practice of law, but we want that to be a holistic approach. JENNIFER: They're charged with preparing students for practice, but that includes not only doing the job of being a lawyer, but it also helps informing that professional identity and understanding the culture of the legal profession. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that base, that foundational culture of legal profession is now well-being at the forefront? BREE: Absolutely. CHRIS: For sure. Jennifer, as we look to wrap up here, again, I think one of the things that's interesting as we think about the future is, how do we know whether we've made progress or not? Do you have any just early inclinations as to the business world? They talk about key performance indicators. Do you have any early sense of, as we talked about this phrase of engineering a culture shift, any sense of how we might want to be thinking about the measurement of progress? JENNIFER: I think there are some standard measurements of progress, retention, burnout. I know there are law firms out there looking at their employees, there are some larger scale surveys, but we talk about different groups of lawyers leaving the profession or changing or moving areas of practice because of the type of their work they're doing. If we see some of those things change, I think we'll be making progress. JENNIFER: If we see the path to partnership change that allows more flexibility, if we see more alternate work environments, if we see some of those things as a standard, remember, because there are firms that might be able to do it and employers that might have to do it, but then it becomes the standard, I think we will have made a difference. CHRIS: Awesome. Jennifer, again, on behalf of everyone who I know has labored on this particular issue and set us up, I mean, we're so excited that you're joining us as a leader in this journey. Our best days continue to be ahead of us. We know that there are some things going on both in society and generationally that might give us a little bit of tailwind for some of that acceleration of activity. I think one of the most important things about this podcast is how can people reach you? Because you are now in some respects the face and the day-to-day kind of operational execution of some of the mission. I would love it if you would let the listeners know how do they get a hold of you? JENNIFER: As I often say, I have a virtual open door. I've been taking meetings regularly, but you can reach me at my email address, jdisanza@lawyerwellbeing.net. Feel free to reach out. I have plenty of availability on my schedule if you just want to chat with me and talk about your thoughts about the Lawyer Well-Being movement or how you'd like to contribute to the Lawyer Well-Being movement. I look forward to talking to many more people. CHRIS: Again, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us. I have a hunch that you will be on the podcast again at some point down the road. In fact, you could even probably be a guest host on the podcast in the event that Bree or I have to take a little bit of a leave or a vacation. Again, I know that for us, that labor on this issue is something that we've made as part of our professional opportunity to give back. It's certainly refreshing to be able to have someone of your talent join our team. I know that you've been passionate about this issue from the forefront, but now you get to work on it day-to-day and that's awesome for us and it's awesome for where this movement is ultimately going. BREE: Absolutely. Jennifer, we're so glad to have you. And me on a personal note, I love working with you. Delighted you're onboard. JENNIFER: Thank you both so much. CHRIS: Well, again, thanks everyone for listening in. We'll be back probably within the next couple weeks, two to three weeks, as we look forward into the fall. It's going to be a busy fall for both IWIL and well-being activities. We will see you down the road. Thanks for tuning in.

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Jennifer Brown of Jennifer Brown Consulting based out of New York, NY Jennifer Brown founded her namesake Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion consulting agency 20 years ago. The agency develops top-down DEI strategies and training programs for medium-size to large companies; sets up effective, well-aligned affinity groups within those companies; and promotes inclusive leadership through educational initiatives. Jennifer is a frequent keynote speaker, both virtually and live. She presented Beyond Diversity: Building A More Inclusive World at the 2022 South by Southwest Conference and followed that with a book signing of her third book, Beyond Diversity: 12 Non-Obvious Ways to Build a More Inclusive World, which she co-authored with Rohit Bhargava. Jennifer is the bestselling author of Inclusion: Diversity, The New Workplace & The Will to Change (2017) and How to Be an Inclusive Leader: Your Role in Creating Cultures of Belonging Where Everyone Can Thrive (2019). The second edition of the 2019 book will be released in October 2022. Jennifer says there was “a huge wake-up call in spring/summer of 2020” after the murder of George Floyd and the subsequent and still-ongoing social movement for cultural change. Jennifer feels that today's workplace is “not built by and for so many of us if we . . . don't fit a certain demographic.” Jennifer explains the importance of this “sea change”: “If people feel welcomed, valued, respected, and heard, and a deep sense of belonging and being treated equitably . . . they do better work . . . and they stay longer.” Jennifer says she is a “member of the LGBTQ+ community” who has “been out for nearly 25 years.” She believes half of her cohorts “are still closeted in the workplace,” but that, finally, people are no longer talking about “why” inclusion is important, but “how” to make it happen. She believes companies will be challenged in setting up equitable workplaces as they rebuild “post-Covid,” particularly with managing blended teams of hybrid (virtual and in-person) employees.  Jennifer warns that managers need to be vigilant in supportinging inclusivity. “Harassment has gone up in the virtual workplace,” she says. Why? “There are no witnesses,” she explains. People are “cut off from information” and don't know their options on how to escalate a complaint and whether they can trust their employer to handle the issue. Jennifer Brown Consulting facilitates the establishment of corporate affinity groups, which are often comprised of people who tend to be “overlooked in the talent pipeline because of bias” in hiring practice, promotion, advancement, and talent reviews.” Even smaller and medium-sized companies are adopting affinity groups to serve as workplace “sources of intelligence about cultural experience,” tap into what is working and what is not, and provide support and “community” to employees who may have, in the past, felt “marginalized.” Jennifer can be reached on Instagram, @JenniferBrownSpeaks; on Twitter, @JenniferBrown, on LinkedIn, and on her agency website at: jenniferbrownconsulting.com, where those interested in DEI information can find the agency's DEI foundations program. ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk. I am joined live at South by Southwest by Jennifer Brown of Jennifer Brown Consulting based out of New York, New York. Welcome to the podcast, Jennifer. JENNIFER: Thank you, Rob. ROB: So good to have you on here. Why don't you start out by telling us about the firm, about Jennifer Brown Consulting? What is your calling card? JENNIFER: The firm I founded 20 years ago. It's a DEI strategy and training company. We work with companies, medium-size and large typically, to help them build their diversity, equity, & inclusion strategy from the top down and help also set up what's called affinity groups and make sure they're effective and well-aligned. We also do a lot of education around inclusive leadership. I have an amazing group of consultants who are, at any given time, working on client projects. And then I do a lot of keynoting – virtual, but now increasingly in person, I'm glad to say . . . as we come out of this into a new variant, I just read yesterday. [laughs] ROB: Last night, yes. JENNIFER: But anyway, I also love writing books. I just co-authored my third book with Rohit Bhargava, Beyond Diversity, and then I have a second edition of How to Be an Inclusive Leader, which was my book from 2019. I have a second edition of that coming out in October of 2022, which I'm really excited about. ROB: Congratulations on the book. Rohit was a guest three years ago, the last time we were recording live at SXSW, and then we all skipped a couple of years because of that COVID thing we were just talking about. As you're engaging with these firms – you mentioned medium and larger firms – at what point are they coming to you these days? What do they know? What are they doing right? What are the blind spots? JENNIFER: There was a huge wake-up call in spring/summer of 2020 on multiple levels. I think the big one for us, obviously, was George Floyd murder and the social movement that occurred and is still occurring. A massive shift in attention and prioritization of the fact that the workplace as it is currently is not built by and for so many of us, if we basically don't fit a certain demographic. Finally – we've been talking about this for many, many years – finally there was attention and resources available. For the last couple of years, our firm has doubled in size and number of companies, and we've been incredibly busy. We were ready for this. This is the conversation we've been having for many years. I'm a member of the LGBTQ+ community, and I've been out for nearly 25 years – I'm dating myself. ROB: Early. JENNIFER: Early, early, when we were still arguing for domestic partner benefits with big companies. Those were the early days of my own activism. Then we grew Jennifer Brown Consulting to be a full-service DEI firm. So, they come to us now and say, “Okay, Jennifer, we get it. We know that it's important. But we don't know how to tackle this, and we don't know how to equip our leaders with the skills and also to awaken their motivation to care about this.” But really, Rob, I'm so excited that it's not a “why” conversation; it's a “how” conversation now. We all are a little bit worried that the urgency is flagging as the world continues to be so chaotic and business priorities shift around, so we're trying to really make sure the burning platform of this remains on fire in people's minds. We know it's on fire, but it's easy to move on and say, “We got this. We're doing enough.” But I can tell you no company is doing enough. ROB: Right. You have two lanes. A lot of companies are going to install somebody with a title in DEI at some level, and then there's actually integrating it into the cadence of the firm. How do you make sure it sticks? How do you keep it from regressing to “business as usual” plus somebody with a title? JENNIFER: I think the way we speak about why this is urgent really matters, and how it can drive business. It drives innovation. Literally, if people feel welcomed, valued, respected, and heard, and a deep sense of belonging and being treated equitably – which means those day-to-day support mechanisms, resources, pay equity, all that good stuff – they do better work. And they stay longer. We're in the midst of a talent crisis. Literally, it is the Great Resignation, and I can tell you from my point of view, it has a lot of reasons, but one of the big reasons is toxic workplaces – workplaces that feel like “I go through my day and I don't see anyone that looks like me. I don't feel trusted or trusting of others. I have one foot out the door for something better.” So, culture can be a differentiator, and belonging can and should be a differentiator to keep great talent. But I can tell you, the workplace needs to be overhauled to be a welcoming place for so many of us. I mean, just LGBT people, half of us are still closeted in the workplace. That is a statistic from 2019. And even in the virtual world, I wonder how it's changed; I don't know. But we are not bringing our full selves to work. And that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of all the identities that aren't bringing their full selves. ROB: For sure. There's part of me that says, what company wouldn't be welcoming in some way? But that's the tip of the spear of the question, I am sure. You mentioned even the structure of the workplace. As we're resetting and coming back and a lot of companies have been virtual, what opportunities to set up an equitable workplace can companies do as they're rebuilding what it means to be in an office from scratch, what their work expectations are from scratch? What are the opportunity points? What can they do today that would've been hard for them to do two, three years ago, and now it's like “No, don't do this again when you come back”? JENNIFER: Well, let's see. So many things. We went to an open office plan for a while. That was the thing. But now data has shown that actually, that's really hard for people to be productive in. Also, the physical office was not a comfortable place. So, virtualizing ourselves actually opened up a sense of safety for a lot of people who found the physical workplace unsafe. I think we have to carry that with us and remember that that is a critical thing to leverage. But then new diversity dimensions are opening up, like who's on site? Who's able to get face time? Who's able to get on somebody's calendar or bump into somebody? There's the haves and have-nots that's opened up. In some companies, the virtual employees are the haves, actually, that are getting the flexible arrangement, and then the people who have to come into the office – but you can actually see it in the reverse, who has access to leadership. If leadership's in the office, that could benefit you. It really depends on the company. I tell managers, we have to up our inclusivity vigilance. When we are managing blended teams, hybrid and in-person, we've got to ensure inclusion constantly and be checking in with people who are virtual because we may not know they are on the bubble in terms of their own engagement and loyalty. And what we don't know can really hurt us, and often when it comes to diversity dimensions, what you don't know can make the difference between keeping that person and having them leave and being surprised. So virtually, we just have to be checking in, asking how people are. The most powerful question is something like “Do you feel included and valued in the way that we're working right now? Is this working for you? Do you feel you can thrive? Do you feel there are barriers? What can I do as your colleague, as your leader, as your manager, to address any barriers that you're experiencing so that you can do your best work? I think asking that often will build the trust and tell us what we need to know so we can architect a better situation for people. ROB: This is the second conversation I've had this week where what you're describing sounds like being a good manager. JENNIFER: Doesn't it? Strange, that. [laughs] ROB: It doesn't sound like anything to do in some ways with particular topics of diversity, equity, inclusion, while at the same time I think what's underpinning there is there's an assumption of commonality that allows people to get by without managing well. Is that fair to say? JENNIFER: Yes, fair to say. Intersectionality speaks to all the different diversity dimensions that live in a human being. And there's multiple things going on. I'm a parent. I identify as queer. I'm caregiving. I'm wrestling with mental health challenges. I'm Latinx. All of those things have an impact on our belonging. In most organizations, there's some angst and some difficulty there because, like I said earlier, workplaces are biased. Period. Any one of those things or a combination of those things may be going on for someone. They may be hearing microaggressions. They may be being harassed virtually. Unfortunately, I hate to say this – harassment has gone up in the virtual workplace. ROB: Wow. JENNIFER: There are no witnesses. Think about this. There's a lack of understanding of how to escalate a complaint and whether you trust your company enough to handle the complaint. When we virtualize employees, they're cut off from information, often, that may have been available and they would've known what sort of avenues exist. I found this harassment data really disturbing, honestly. Anyway, there's a lot of risks. Like I said, as a manager and a leader, to have somebody's identities in mind and be able to anticipate, “What's going on for this person? How can I get them to trust me enough to share with me so that I can help?” – and even if that means suggesting that somebody go to HR, suggesting that somebody seek out the EAP for mental health support. I mean, just connecting the dots is so much of our job these days, and it's been made more difficult when we're out of the loop with each other. That's a dangerous place to be. ROB: Absolutely. You mentioned affinity groups as a key component. What does that look like, building from scratch? How do you get from zero to something there? JENNIFER: It's funny; back in the day, only large companies had affinity groups, and they're like the LGBT Network, the Women's Network, the Black Network, the Asian-American Network, Disabilities, Veterans. In big companies, there's a lot. But since two years ago and everything crescendoing, even the smaller and medium-size companies now have affinity groups, and they understand that these groups are literally sources of intelligence about cultural experience in our workplace – what's going well, what's going wrong, what needs to be supported, resourced, which talent exists. Sometimes people in affinity groups are the ones that are overlooked in the talent pipeline because of bias in our hiring, promotion, advancement, talent reviews. So, affinity groups are really important mechanisms to enable people to find community, especially virtually, to share what's going on and not feel so alone, to strategize about how to be heard in a workplace that is maybe not conscious of its own bias, and then also provide that identity intelligence to the employer to say, “Hey, this community is feeling this now.” For example, Stop Asian Hate wasn't just in 2020. It's actually been increasing and getting worse over this last year and the year before. And yet employers aren't prioritizing it. If it weren't for the affinity groups that are keeping it top of mind and saying, “Hey, this is a problem” – our employees are bringing this into the workplace every day and walking around with this, if they're commuting or in their communities or in their families. People are afraid, and they expect their employer to address it and to know that it's happening and to say, “What can we, the employer, do to support you, to raise awareness, and to make a statement?” Honestly, employers also, by the way, need to be making statements about a variety of social issues right now. Otherwise, silence – look what happened to Disney not saying anything about the Don't Say Gay activities in Florida. Their employees have been so upset and writing letters to the CEO and agitating, and finally the CEO wrote a memo and it just broke yesterday on Twitter. But it took a long time, and it shouldn't take a long time. Companies should have their employees' backs. Period. ROB: And then it's even harder when you do actually say something – the rubric against which it is measured at that point is so much harder. JENNIFER: Oh yeah. There's a lot of issues, granted. But this is the world we live in. Certainly, I hear from leaders, “Jennifer, where does it stop?” I'm like, “This is your new normal. It doesn't stop. But by the way, this is an opportunity to connect with your employees on a deep” – when I feel seen and heard and valued, this is what it means. If my CEO is silent on a harmful bill to me and my community, I am out the door. I can't describe – it's like a visceral thing. Like “I can't work here anymore. This company doesn't see me, doesn't care about what's happening to people that identify like I do.” Employees are finding their voice in a way that I have been waiting for for a really long time. So really, the problem is leadership is really behind. They don't have the competency. They're not able to pivot quickly. They're like, “I can't walk and chew gum at the same time.” I'm like, no, this needs to be your new leadership skill. You have to be able to know, to be scanning your environment all the time and saying “What do I need to make sure our employees know that we're not okay with?” That needs to be the first thing you wake up thinking about every day. ROB: This sounds like it ties into some of the dimensions of the book, so let's go over that direction for a moment. Talk about the book, how it came to be – the book is Beyond Diversity with you and Rohid. How did this happen, and what should we know about it? You had a session here talking about the book. What should people know? JENNIFER: Yeah, we did. It was so great. It came out of a five-day Beyond Diversity Summit, literally, with 200 speakers. Rohid approached me. I was one of those folks part of organizing it, and he's like, “This needs to be a book.” I was like, “Oh no, 200 speakers, hours and hours of footage. How do we boil this down into a book? It's terrifying. My team will never forgive me.” However, we said yes, let's do it. We organized all of this footage into 12 themes, and those are the chapters. They're not identity themes. We could've gone that way. We could've done “This is the chapter on LGBTQ+. This is the chapter on Asian-Americans and AAPI folks.” Instead, we did education, media, workplace, storytelling, government, family. It was so cool to take all of that wisdom from a wide array of diverse storytellers in every way and figure out, where do we tell this story, that story, that story? I loved the challenge of that. I think also, “beyond diversity” to me perhaps means, yes, identity diversity, but let's look at how this plays out in these domains of life that really touch our lives every single day. We can all relate to education. We can all relate to what's happening in media. I hope the book reaches people who have dismissed this topic maybe in the past, but they pick it up and they're like, “Oh, this book makes sense to me. This is relevant to my life holistically.” And it's such a positive book. It's not a “shame and blame” book. It is full of celebrations of where innovation is occurring and how exciting it is and how it's going to better our world. I think it's a really different kind of book, and I hope it finds all kinds of audiences. I think it should be in curriculum in schools. Professors should be assigning it. My parents, in their eighties, tell me it's the best book I've ever written. They love it. They're reading it and they're able to understand it. ROB: It is very, very approachable in the structure. It's just made so that you can come in, engage with it at whatever depth you want to – not that you want to treat it like a dictionary and shop by topic, or an encyclopedia, but there is that ability. There's skimmability. There's summary. But that facilitates approaching it easily, but also the education context. You open it up, and it's credible – this book was made by people who were making a business book, not just like “my opinion and here you go.” It wasn't a memoir. JENNIFER: Yes, exactly. We actually really intentionally decentered ourselves. Even though we were writing the book, we gathered this big writing team also. So all of their hands are on the writing. And then we hired also inclusivity readers, otherwise known as sensitivity readers, because Rohit and I and the other writers knew we would still not perceive the correct language, for example. They went through the book and gave us tons of feedback. It was just a wonderful learning experience. But the book literally is all about different storytellers – unusual, unexpected, nonobvious storytellers. I hear myself talk all day, but I want their voice to be out there, and I think we were both in service of that. ROB: It is excellent. You get in deep, and then there's the contributor list – obviously voluminous, for sure. JENNIFER: Yes. ROB: Jennifer, let's rewind a little bit. Let's talk about where Jennifer Brown Consulting came from. What made you decide that you should not have a job with somebody else and you should build something, and who knows where it goes? Especially with the past couple of years with that growth now. But where did it start? JENNIFER: It started because being in the LGBTQ+ community in my early days, really way back, I was an opera singer. ROB: Wow. JENNIFER: I came to New York to make it, and then my voice kept getting injured and I had to get vocal surgery several times to repair it, but it would never – I realized my instrument just wouldn't ever do what it needed to do, and I would have to reinvent. I found my way to – I like to think of it now as a different stage, literally. I'm a keynoter now. I'm able to use my love of the stage – which I've been on stage since I was five; I grew up in a really musical family, and we are like the Von Trapp Family Singers. [laughs] ROB: Yeah, it came to my mind as soon as you said it. [laughs] JENNIFER: I was that kid. So I seek the stage. I love it. I crave it. I enjoy it. I'm comfortable on it. I think it's the best medium for me. Anyway, though, as a closeted person who was trying to find my voice, I found in those early days all of these amazing companies in New York – IBM, Deloitte, Proctor and Gamble – I didn't even know this world existed, but it was the world of corporations that were leading-edge in terms of LGBTQ equality. They were all starting to vie for us as talent and then also trying to vie for us as customers. I had a front seat years ago on those early battles for domestic partner benefits, for adding sexual orientation and gender identity to the non-discrimination policies and the language of the company. Their statements used to not include that. I hope people are hearing this and being like, “Wow, I've always taken that for granted, and I didn't know there was a time that wasn't there.” But I can tell you, there was a time. And those were really exciting days. I feel like I cut my teeth on – the way that LGBTQ employees shifted companies was super powerful for me to see and be a part of because I think it clicked that I could be a voice for change, and that change would actually happen in this massive entity with just my voice, or just the voice of a community. We were very strategic in the way we approached it. We argued the case around talent retention and recruitment. We argued the business case for customers. It trained me to think about how large institutions change and why they change, and because of what, and how to be an irritant in the system but to be strategic and grounded in their “care abouts” where it's a win-win. That is something I've carried with me as we built Jennifer Brown Consulting, and I would subsequently leave corporate America. I was an employee, like you say, and I was like, “This is not creative enough for me. I don't have enough agency. I can't have a boss. I have to start my own firm.” Very quickly, when I put my shingle out – I'm kind of a natural marketer – it became much bigger than I could manage. I started to hire people. I started to send people in instead of me and started to scale my company. In fact, one of my first hires was a COO, and I really dug deep to pay somebody six figures to build my entire backend because I knew – I was like, I don't know how to do this. And I don't want to. I need to be out there, doing what I do best in my zone of genius, which was evangelizing for the idea of the firm and also putting forth not just me, but all these talented consultants that I was able to attract and send in on our behalf to the clients that I had procured. It worked really well. I always felt it was important to work on the business, not in the business. So from the very beginning days, I was like, how does this scale? And then how do I find my way into my best role? And I'm there now. ROB: How many people did you have when you hired your COO, and were they somebody that had done that job before? JENNIFER: Like three people. And yes, they had scaled my friend's firm, a marketing agency. They had allowed her and enabled her to focus on the creative. Founders are often not the backend people. We're the salespeople. We get the attention. We know how to do that. So, he had done that, and I took the plunge and said, “Please, get everybody paid on time. Do job descriptions. Help me figure out who's my first, second, and third hire. Who should that be? Help me run my finances responsibility. Get us a bookkeeper and do QuickBooks and set up…” – whatever, there's just so much you have to think about. I never regretted it. Subsequently, I've gone through four or five COOs over 20 years. ROB: But the role is necessary. JENNIFER: Yep, and I really recommend it. If you think you've got a tiger by the tail, like I thought I did – and I had no idea what that really would feel like until 2020 – but up until that time, I was evangelizing this idea that belonging is important for all of these dimensions. Better products, better services, better customer relationships, better design. More retention. Losing people is so expensive for companies, and they don't see it as that. It's sort of this invisible cost of attrition. I mean, now they know. But I think it's been happening for years because many of us have been bailing out and becoming entrepreneurs because we literally were like, “I can't stand another day here.” Anyway, it's a big wakeup call and I'm here for it. ROB: Absolutely. I hear you on the COO side. Our sixth employee was an operations role, and she's moved up to COO. It was terrifying. I started off thinking I wanted just a junior project manager / order-taker / “do stuff for me,” and then I was persuaded by some advisors to spend the money. But it was terrifying. JENNIFER: How's she doing and feeling? ROB: She's moved up. It's great. It's a relief because I'm out here talking to people, and things still happen back home on the home front. JENNIFER: I want to share – maybe this will be interesting for your audience – my name is on the name of the consulting business, right? It's Jennifer Brown Consulting. We refer to ourselves as JBC. But we have transcended that question I always get, which is “Don't people expect you?” They don't, actually. They know about me, but they don't expect me to be on the calls. We've scaled ourselves to such a level that the team is completely empowered and completely the star of the show, and I'm not involved unless there's a keynote that's needed and wanted or an executive session. I'm off writing the books that hopefully draw attention to us. It's just an interesting thing I know founders wrestle with and thought leader-driven brands. It's this interesting question that always comes up. But I think we've done it really well. I think the secret is it's always been my plan and it's always been my expectation. I have said very clearly, it's not about me. I'm not even the most practiced expert in my company, and I never have been. My consultants are incredible, and they will solve problems differently than I will in any client engagement. They are bringing their own 30 years of looking at these things, and they have different identities than I do, and they have that lived experience that they can bring. So, it's worked really well, and it's enabled me to pull out of the day to day and speak and write, which I do think is what I have been, all these years, preparing to do. ROB: Was it easier or harder, those first couple of engagements when you were tagging someone else in? JENNIFER: I remember. If I'm on the phone, if I'm involved, how can somebody feel that they're in charge of the gig? The client is always going to be looking to me as the authority, and I don't want to be looked at as the authority. I had to be really careful in the early days of this transition of what I was a part of – that they even met me. I minimized that. [laughs] I was like, “Nope, you don't need to talk to me. Thanks for the inquiry. I'm introducing you right away to my team. They will take care of you.” We still actually do this because stuff still finds its way to me. But we're very strict, and we have protocols that we follow. I never break those because it's super important for me that my team can take care of whatever you need. I'm almost like a consultant now. The team is in charge and knows what to bring me and when that's needed. Also, for me and my wants and needs, I don't want to be in the day-to-day client work anymore, and I haven't wanted to be for many years. That's not what brings me fulfillment. So, I think for founders, commit to and dig deep to seek – know what you don't want to do, but what you want your firm to still do. That's so important. Just pay attention to that and then dig deep financially and wherever else you have to dig to staff around the work you want the group to do as a delivery but is not work you directly want to be involved in. And then make sure you're not sending mixed messages and that you're truly empowering the people you've hired to go and be brilliant. ROB: I hear you talking about handing over two separate sets of responsibilities at least, which are doubly nerve-wracking. You're talking about handing over the delivery of the work, but you're also talking about handing over the selling of the work. JENNIFER: Yeah. We're interesting because our folks don't do business development. I have been in the space for so long that our amazing marketing team who helps me get the word out – we provide so much value. We have so many opportunities to read our thought leadership, join our calls, be a part of our JBC community, that we get a lot of inbound. One of the things I've learned is you cannot force people to be salespeople if that is not what they do. I understood my role very early on. I'm here to build the house that people can live in and make sure the bills are paid and whatever, taking care of the container and making sure there's enough opportunity coming in for people to focus on being the subject matter expert and delivering the work and taking care of the relationship. We have a sales team, but they field a lot. They really more operate as “Now we have an opportunity; what is the scope? What is the statement of work? How do we price it? Who do we put on it? What's the team going to be that delivers it?” That is what happens after we receive an interest or a lead. It was the way I got around sales, honestly, because the only kind of sales I'm really comfortable with is this back-door way of putting myself in conversations, adding value, moderating panels endlessly – which is what I did for years, just going to conferences and being in the room, speaking up and offering to be helpful. And over time, now it's like, “We've wanted to work with you and your team for years. We finally have the budget!” But years and years and years of people watching us grow, and now it's amazing to get these calls from people that saw me speak 10 years ago or were in the room.  ROB: You can't be transactional about that. That's playing the long game. JENNIFER: It's reputation, it's trust, and it's generosity. We've been so, so generous. That's my MO. I see myself as part of the field. I think of it as we are a field of practitioners, and even if we're competitors, we're not. We all stay in touch with each other. When we hang out, other heads of firms, it's like this amazing, really rich conversation because it's a moment. This is purpose work. And people will find the firms that they feel the most comfort with for what they need. But honestly, it's co-opetition. I've heard that word, and I think that really speaks to that, at the end of the day, we're part of a movement and advocacy and whoever does the work, we deeply care that the work is done. ROB: Absolutely. I can see clearly that you deeply care and you have a team that does. Jennifer, when people want to find you and JBC, where should they go to find you? JENNIFER: Thanks for asking. Amazon has all my books, and then on Instagram, I'm @JenniferBrownSpeaks. I'm on LinkedIn. Twitter, I'm @JenniferBrown. Yes, I was on Twitter many, many, many years ago. ROB: Well played. JENNIFER: Well played. [laughs] And then jenniferbrownconsulting.com is our website. I just want to say if you're a new practitioner or an aspiring DEI professional, you should really check out our online courses. We're building our foundations program and rolling that out. It's just a wonderful six-week “get yourself grounded and work on your personal diversity story.” ROB: That even scales down to some people who maybe aren't midmarket enough to pay for you. Excellent. JENNIFER: Exactly. You understand. ROB: I do understand. JENNIFER: Thank you. ROB: Jennifer, thank you so much for meeting up and coming on the podcast and helping us learn well in your expertise. JENNIFER: It's a pleasure. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Jennifer Ewbank, Deputy Director for Digital Innovation at Central Intelligence Agency joins Carolyn and Mark to talk about the unparalleled work in integration and integration she and her teams are doing. Jennifer talks about the importance of partnerships in IT, data and cybersecurity and how Digital Innovations, the newest branch of the CIA, is transforming security. Episode Table of Contents[00:58] Jennifer's Opinions on DDI's Unparalleled Innovation [08:35] Integration of Digital Capabilities and Unparalleled Innovation [16:06] Unparalleled Innovation on Cloud Computing [24:04] Unparalleled Innovation in the Digital Landscape [32:00] Applying Unparalleled Innovation Into Our Mission [39:44] A Space Nerd With Unparalleled Innovation Episode Links and Resources Jennifer's Opinions on DDI's Unparalleled InnovationCarolyn: Today, our guest is https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-ewbank-534779224/ (Jennifer Ewbank), Deputy Director of CIA for Digital Innovation, also known as DDI. Jennifer is responsible for accelerating the development and integration of digital and cyber capabilities across all of the CIA's mission areas. We're so excited to hear from you today, Jennifer, and get your opinions on the DDI and its contributions to the CIA. Jennifer: Thank you so much for the invitation, I'm really excited about our conversation today. I love nothing more than sharing a little bit about the great work that the men and women of the CIA are doing on behalf of the American people. To talk about how this intelligence landscape is changing dramatically along with the digital transformation we see around the world. We're here on the 1st of March. I wanted to acknowledge that, as we have a conversation today about one of these topics I love tremendously. It's really critically important for the intelligence business, it is taking place against the backdrop of events unfolding in Eastern Europe. So, just about a week ago, Russian troops invaded a sovereign nation and brought war back to the European continent in a completely unprovoked act. I just wanted to assure anyone who might be listening to the podcast that the CIA is intensely focused on our national security around the world. We're focused on that crisis and working as part of an integrated US government team to do what we can to bring about a rapid end to these senseless hostilities and the return of Russian troops to the Russian Federation.Unparalleled Innovation on What Matters MostJennifer: I just wanted to ensure, whenever people listen to this, that they understand that we are focused on what matters most at the moment. I'm taking a few minutes out of an otherwise very hectic day to talk about this topic. It's really important from a strategic perspective but is perhaps not the most urgent topic on our plates today. Carolyn: Honestly, what you do is integral and so important to everything that you just mentioned. Let me see if I can get the words out right but in supporting the sovereign nation. What you do with the digital side of things and this mission, that cyber domain is incredibly important. Jennifer: Yes, we've seen it play out a bit so far in unprovoked attacks on Ukrainian entities. Our role, sometimes, may not be known to those outside of the intelligence community and that's most of America. We work for the US government, we work for the US people, absolutely. But we also support our allies and partners around the globe. Any major challenge requires those partnerships to succeed. Anyway, that was my little PSA at the beginning. Carolyn: Let's talk about your story. Let's talk more about your background, your role at the CIA. Describe the position and what the DDI is. Jennifer: I can't imagine that most people would know what it is. I certainly knew very little about the CIA before joining it. Generally speaking, I lead the Directorate of Digital Innovation at CIA. It's one of the five large directorates that comprise the whole of CIA. Some

Jennifer Van Barneveld-Pe (aka Coach JVB, aka Jenny) and Lesley Logan talk magazines, motherhood, and managing your time in a way to be both an entrepreneur and a family woman. They cover everything from fainting on the gym floor to asking for help when you need it. Are you a morning person? You might be after this episode!If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Having an obsession with magazines as a teenagerJenny's excitement to step into the role of President of STRONG Fit MagazineFainting on the gym floorBody image, dysmorphiaAsking for help when you need itAre you a morning person?Setting aside time for yourselfAccept that you are going to have imposter syndrome, and still doing "it" anywayHave a plan and take small steps along that planAmy Ledin's daily agreement cardsOrganizing your timeCorrect and continueEpisode References/Links:Strong Fitness MagazineJenny's websiteJenny's IGJenny's podcastTeam Strong Girls websiteTeam Strong Girls IGGuest Bio:Jennifer Van Barneveld-Pe (aka Coach JVB) but please call her “Jenny”, is a renowned body transformation specialist, President of STRONG Fitness Magazine and 3X fitness cover model. While she's made a definitive mark on the fitness industry, she entered it with humble beginnings and her fair share of struggle – battling an eating disorder, almost filing for bankruptcy and multiple miscarriages. To rise to where she is now and the quest to heal herself led her to forming Team Strong Girls, a community of women helping women ascend their lives to new heights. She truly believes that fitness is a vessel to help women feel strong, confident and empowered in their bodies and their lives. With her eye on supporting women's journeys to live their best lives, she has now stepped into the shoes of President of STRONG Fitness Magazine further expanding her global impact to help more women find their STRONG. Jenny has also launched a podcast – Find Your STRONG, diving deep into personal stories of how health and fitness intersects people's lives at key turning points, helping them find strength and purpose. Jenny and her husband have been happily married for 8 years and have 2 beautiful boys, Jackson and Logan and a long-haired chihuahua named Samuel.If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan  Hello you. How are you? Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It podcast. Today's guest is Jennifer van Barneveld-Pe, coach JVB, I call her Jenny, you can call her Jenny. She is beautiful inside and out. And we, you know, I met her through Amy Ledin, I mean through a mutual friend. She'd been talking about her for a while. And so, I followed her on Instagram, and I was like liking her posts, and I was commenting on them. And then I heard her on Amy's podcast that she launched her podcast, Find Your Strong, and I like binged out on her podcast. It's really awesome. I got to be on it. I'm episode number 26. So listen to this one, and then go binge on all of hers. I promise you'll you'll love it. She and I align in so many ways and the way we see ... the way we like view what action means. And also, she has I can't ... you have to listen to the end because I really love her message on how to like, assess what's going on and then re redefine what you're doing. So, I want you to hear her words on that because it's really great. Anyways, y'all she is the President of Strong Fitness Magazine. She's also the founder of Strong, Team Strong Girls. I love, you're going to hear her story in her journey, how she started as a trainer 18 and how she's gotten to where she is. But, what I also think you're going to hear that I really love is that like wasn't planned that like, "Oh, I'm going to be and I'll do this and I'll be the President of Strong Fitness Magazine." Like that's not how it went. And I think it's really easy for us to think it has to be this linear line. And just not, that's just not how it is. She's also for my mama's out there. She's got two boys and they've been in lockdown for a long time in Toronto, so I think you are going to love her advice for all of you. I know that I'm going to be quoting it for all of my mamas that come to me at OPC. So check it out. Check her out all of her information and links are in the show notes. I definitely want you to also check out Strong Fitness Magazine. And let us know how you, what your takeaways are when you listen to this, I can't wait to hear them. So post them on Instagram and tag me and her so we can hear what you took away from this episode. We're going to get into the interview right after this message.Lesley Logan  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan  Alright. I'm so excited you're here to listen to today's interview. Jennifer van Barneveld-Pe is someone I met through a mutual friend. She's been a guest on the show Amy Ledin and um Amy talked about you. First of all, like, like you were just a goddess and amazing human friend and, and just wonderful woman and I couldn't wait to get to know you. And I heard you on her podcast and I heard you had a podcast and I started stalking you were just a little bit. (Lesley laughs) (Jennifer: That's okay!) (Jennifer laughs) And and what is so true is you are so amazing and so supportive of women and your drive to help women find their strong is so, so cool. And I think we're aligned in a lot of ways, which is why I had to have you on the Be It Till You See It podcast. So, Jenny will you please tell everyone who you are and why you rock? (Lesley laughs)Jennifer van Barneveld  Yeah, thank you so much for having me today, Lesley. I, it was such a pleasure chatting with you a few weeks ago on my podcast. You know, I've been helping women live more confidently in their bodies for over 15 years now. I own a company called Team Strong Girls. And, I also own Strong Fitness Magazine, which I recently just stepped in the role of President of Strong Fitness Magazine so that's a fairly new thing. And I've also recently made the shift in helping entrepreneurs solely like you know, with their own body transformations and, you know, getting fit, gaining strength and confidence and feeling empowered in their bodies. So they can, you know, be the best in their busy lives. I think as we grow through our own life and our own business, we start to attract different people. So, I've recently made the shift in helping entrepreneurs solely and it's been awesome. And we always celebrate with like a celebration photoshoot at the end of their transformation, whether it's for themselves or for their brand because I feel like women just don't celebrate themselves enough. So, I've always been doing the photo shoot thing. And now it's been, you know, concentrating on those entrepreneurs, and it's just been amazing.Lesley Logan  Oh, my goodness that is beyond. So first of all, there's a lot that we want, I want to talk about with you because the fact that you are the president of a magazine, like, I remember growing up, and like I bought all ... I mean, I had subscriptions to every magazine, like there's, (Jennifer: Same) (Jennifer laughs) I had all of them and I, I would pull out all the workouts, and in 17 ... I pull out all, I have binder, and then I ... (Lesley and Jennifer laughs) and I, and I just can't imagine like, I feel like my teenage self would be like, what have I felt like, I would have been like, I want to, like, be in this magazine, I would want to like do a thing. And so did you always want, did you did you know you were gonna be a president of a magazine? Like, how did this come about?Jennifer van Barneveld  Oh, my God, it's hilarious because I was the same way. I loved magazines, I would have subscriptions to all these magazines and do the workouts and, you know, you know, follow the recipes and the diet trends, whatever it was. But, yeah, I feel like magazines were such a big part of the fitness industry for a really long time. And I've been a part of the fitness industry since I was like 18, you know, as a personal trainer, and then I worked for a supplement company and it was such a big part of it. You know, like, when I worked at the supplement company, we advertised in all the fitness magazines, too. So I never thought I would be a president of a fitness magazine. But it does make sense when I look back on my journey now. My husband too, he he's such a big magazine fan. Like I know, if you know we go into a Shoppers Drug Mart, Shoppers Drug Mart and here here in Canada or like an Indigo, and we split up, I know where to find him. He's always in the magazinee section. (Lesley and Jennifer laughs)Lesley Logan  That's amazing. (Jennifer: Always) That's amazing. (Jennifer: Yeah)Jennifer van Barneveld  So, I feel like he sort of put it out there and I sort of put it out there not really realizing it. And then when this opportunity came, it was just such a perfect fit, because we've been running Strong Girls since 2012. And I've always helped my clients like get exposure like that in different fitness magazines. And I'm like, "Wow," like I love telling stories. I love telling transformation stories. I love telling stories of women finding their strong and then this is just such a perfect synergy that I can be able and platform, I can be able to do that even more. (Lesley: Yeah) So it was it was just a dream come true and just perfect timing. (Jennifer laughs) with everything to be honest.Lesley Logan  Um, you you've talked about the transformation stories a couple of times and I, I loved, I love that you have a photoshoot. I, so at OPC, I'm always about like, celebrating your wins, and like noticing what you can do, what is possible for you. And I find it's taken, it's taken a while. But now, the people been with OPC for a long time, they're always like, every week, here's an aha moment, here's like they're celebrating, right? That allows new people to come in. And right from the get go, they're like, "Oh, look what I was able to do," and it's really fun. But I find that without that push, without that outside, push a lot of women specifically don't celebrate, don't do this, like fabulous photoshoot. And so what made you start, when did you start doing the photoshoots and like, how, how is that transformed?Jennifer van Barneveld  We started it like fairly like, right when I started coaching women. My husband and I, again came from that supplement world. So we were always used to, you know, we worked for some of the diet diet campaigns, which is a whole other story. But we would have to find those transformation. So we would find those transformations. We'dd diet them down in 12 weeks. This is another reason why I started Strong Girls because I didn't want to do that anymore. I thought it was way too restrictive and I hate timeframes like that. But that's again, another story. (Lesley: Yeah) But we always did that whole before and after. Right? And so when when I started coaching women, my husband's like, "You know what, I have an old camera, how about we just celebrate at the end of the transformation and I'll take some photos." And so he wasn't a photographer or anything. (Lesley laughs) He just did it. And we just saw them light up, like it was they loved it. And they were like, "Oh my God, like I can't even believe it. I worked so hard but I didn't think I looked at this great." And just with all that feedback, I'm like, "No, this needs to be part of it." So then we started working really more closely with the top photographers in Toronto and just worked it in as a part of the journey. Now not everybody has to do a photoshoot. But when you become a Strong Girls and you're like inside of inside our community, you start seeing the other girls do it. And even if you never thought that you would do something like that, it's like when you see somebody else do and they were a mom of three. And, you know, you saw them begin and now and now in front of a camera like that, it's it's almost like, "I wanna do that too," you know, they want they want to be part of that. So, it was from the beginning, but it really has evolved and now you know, helping my clients actually show up in the magazine is just a whole other (Jennifer laughs) level ...Lesley Logan  That is, that is so cool. I, I because I do a lot of photoshoots for for work, you know, for my business. And, I have been on days where I like literally text photographer, I'm like, "I really I'm just having a day. Just tell me what you need me to bring." And then all of a sudden your makeup gets done, you know that you've got that powerful outfit on. And there's (Jennifer: Yeah) a picture and you just start like you, you can't help it step into what I like to think of it like being in the higher self that you'd like always want to be daily. And so when I heard you did, I think this is, people should do this all the time. Because like, it's so much easier to see yourself as the person you want to be or to maintain the transformation that you've had, when you have this like celebration moment when you acknowledge the goal that's achieved. And then you get to show like, you get to have these pictures of like, "Look what I did and look who, like, look who I can be and who I am." Yeah,Jennifer van Barneveld  Absolutely. And like I said, I work with a lot of, you know, business owners and moms who, who on a regular basis, hide from the camera, (Lesley: Right) with their kids, you're hiding. And then for them to like really step out of our comfort zone and do this, it is such a game changer. It is life changing.Lesley Logan  Yeah, that is that is really cool. So, um, you know, you've talked about, like, the jobs you've had in the past and ... and I and because I know you a little bit. So, I don't want to, I want to give away the story. But I feel like, you know, I look back at some of the jobs that I did. And I'm like, "Oh, that was an interesting. That's an interesting job." And I saw them all though, like, what I see when I've heard in you is like you did some things and you you had questions or like, "Ah, I don't really like how this is working out." And that led you to creating something else. So can you share a little bit about like, how you went from maybe doing 12 week transformations to Strong Girls?Jennifer van Barneveld  Yes, absolutely. So, I started as a trainer age 18. You know, when I was going to university, I was like, "Okay, you know what, I'll do this on the side." So I was training clients in the morning, you know, 6am to like 8am going to university during the day, and then coming back at night and training clients. And during that time, I was getting more involved in the fitness industry. I was I was I was testing some things out. So, I was cutting out carbs and trying all these dieting techniques and doing double day cardio is because a lot a lot of the people that I was working with at the gym, they were training for a fitness show. So, I started to get some of that advice and I started to try it on on myself. And I mean, it just sort of took over my life, to be honest, you know, I was drastically cutting calories. I was doing double day cardio and funny enough, I was getting noticed too for losing weight. So that was like that good feedback I was receiving and I'm like, "Oh, I must be looking great. I must be doing really well." And one day when I was training a client, I had actually fainted on the gym floor. You know, I was I was prepping for this photoshoot for a magazine at the time. And I was com... like I was probably eating like 800 calories, maybe even less. I was doing double day cardio. So, when I fainted, I was like, "Oh, my God, like this is not healthy." (Lesley: Yeah) And I knew I had to do something at that moment. I knew I had to change that was my wake up call because if I kept that up, you know, I wouldn't be here today, like I was going down a really, really dark hole. So that's really when I woke up and said, "There's got to be a better way," I decided to go to school for holistic nutrition and learn how to fuel my body properly, not be afraid of food, eat all the food groups not cutting out carbs. I started to train smarter and not harder, meaning I started to lift heavier and not you know, do those double day cardios that I used to do (Lesley: Right) and I began to really feel good, I began to feel strong, I began to have energy again, feel confident. And, I found this... I call my journey finding my strong because it's really what happened to me and you know I share with shaping my body with feeling so good. And I'm like, you know what, I want every single woman to find their strong, too. I don't want women to focus on weight loss anymore (Lesley: Yeah) and trying to be smaller all the time. Like, let's focus on gaining, gaining strength, gai... gaining confidence. And that's really when Team Strong Girls was born and because I just want every woman to feel how I did that time.Lesley Logan  Um, this story is so beautiful because I remember, I had stomach issues for 10 years. And, so I still have bouts with them but there was what people that know is that like, in the morning, I was like, "Oh, look at me like swimsuit model who wouldn't want do Pilates with me." And that night, I look nine months pregnant, because the bloating and like all the stuff and the doctors made it worse. And at one point, they're like, "I think your body dysmorphia," and I'm like, "I have pictures, like pictures of what I look like in the morning and night. This is not fake. I'm not it's not in my head," you know. (Jennifer: Yeah) But with all the different ways of trying to combat it and figure it out. I started I'm 5'9" and I got down to a 118 pounds, (Jennifer: Oh wow!) which is so skinny ... and I got more compliments then, then I get now you know, and (Jennifer: Yeah) now I think I look great. I have definitely, like, I'm definitely more than I've ever weighed. And that is and that's why I don't own a scale. But like, it's, it's because what I what I was going towards and like working in a gym environment and having those things. I was on this elimination diet for three months, all I ate was sweet potatoes like that's what I ate, because it couldn't figure out what was wrong with my stomach. And then but then I was losing the weight and people are complimenting you. (Jennifer: Yeah) And, I look back at those pictures and I'm like, "Who thought this was beautiful, (Jennifer: Yeah) I look tired. I look malnourished, I look exhausted." And and so when we figured out what's going on my stomach and I was starting to eat again, I had didn't have to be afraid of certain foods. I started to realize like, you know, there's there is that there has to be a better way. And it can't be about what's on the scale or what size you are. It has to be like, "Can I unpack an entire truck when my husband I moved to Las Vegas without a mover?" Yeah, I could. I could move things like, (Jennifer: Yeah) that's really awesome. We moved during a pandemic, we couldn't find movers. So, I had to, like, unpack (Jennifer: That's awesome!) (Jennifer laughs) the equipment, you know, so I think, I love your messages you have, you posted something on Instagram the other day about like, you know, don't miss out on 90% of life just a way 5% less or like loot like something like that. And it's like, I want that plastered on every girl's like door. (Jennifer: Yeah) Because I (Jennifer: Yeah) do think that so much of what holds us back from being what we want to be in this world (Jennifer: Yeah) and what we think we're supposed to look like.Jennifer van Barneveld  Mm hmm. I know I feel the same. And that whenever, whenever I go to post something or write something I always try to tap into who, who was like who did I need to hear from? I want to be that girl for myself when I was in my you know, late teens, early 20s. Because I mean, it's it's even more, so now with all the social media and you know, like, you're constantly getting, you know, bombarded with what you should look like, or, you know, images of thin girls or, you know, big boobs, big butt, like, whatever it is, you know, (Lesley: Yeah) you're you're constantly getting bombarded with that. And and it can be so disturbing. It can be so disturbing for your life, you know, (Lesley: Yeah) you can stop living your life if you're so consumed with with that and body image.Lesley Logan  Yeah. Well, thank you for what you're doing there because it is it inspires me every day. And I like I keep resharing, I'm like, "Everyone needs to hear this." Um, I want to talk about because you so you have you're married you, you have this ... you have Team Strong Girls, you also run a magazine and you have two boys. One whose name obviously is my favorite. So Logan and Jackson (Lesley and Jennifer laughs) So um, so, you know, I think a lot of women get stuck on not doing something for themselves, because they have families and a partner that they're also wanting to, like, take care of. How how has it been for you to like, go after your goals and also, like, try to keep a family together? Like what how do you do it.Jennifer van Barneveld  So, I have a really great support system. My husband is in the business with me and he fully understands and so like he, he knows that if I have to do something, he's got the kids. I've also had to learn that I'm always gonna have that mom guilt. I feel like mom guilt is just a normal thing to have. You just have to accept it. (Lesley: Yeah) And you know, do your best, show up the best you can but also be okay with asking for help when you need it. And so we have a nanny that comes in and helps us and she's like family now. And I had when I first hired a nanny when I had my first son, I had so much guilt about it. I was like, "I've got... but I have to be there for him. I have to be there." And now I've let that go because I now look at it as a blessing that he can have somebody else in his life to make an impact, to make him more of a well rounded person or them both, a more well rounded person. So having the grandparents there and having, you know, the caregiver there, and then also having our undivided attention at a certain time, you know, my cut off is always five o'clock and I'm with them a 110%. So, you know, I've just you, when you become a mom, you just have to be more organized in your schedule. Recently, I've, I've been getting up earlier, and just getting my workout in a lot earlier. And I've... I said recently, because it's been like four days, but it's a game changer. (Lesley and Jennifer laughs) Like six o'clock workout, do some work before the kids get up. And I mean, it's been such a game changer and I'm doing that for myself. You know, I have that me time, before, (Lesley: Yeah) before the day starts, (Lesley: Yeah) which is so key.Lesley Logan  Um, I have this whole thing like, give yourself a 100% first, because then you can give more to others, like it's the whole idea. Like, you have a glass of, you have a glass of water right now. Right? And like if you started your day with just what was in there, and like you walked around the house and was like, "Can I have some water?" You're like, you can have a sip, like, this is all I have, right? But if you filled it the whole (Jennifer: Yeah) if you filled it, all the way in the morning, then you're like, "Oh, you want some water, here some water here?" Oh, you know, (Jennifer: Yeah) like, "Oh, I spilled a little over here. It's... you have that it's fine." (Jennifer: Yeah) Like, you just, you can stay in that abundance mindset. So you said recently you get up earlier. So, I am a morning person that doesn't and I and people are often surprised. Like, I am actually not very happy in the morning. (Lesley and Jennifer laughs) But, I am a morning person meaning like when I (Jennifer: Yeah) wake up, there's this (Jennifer: Yeah) like moment of like, "Why am I up? What day is it? Maybe I should have slept in," even though I hate like I don't like waking up late later for me because I'm like the day just feels like it starts later. Right? (Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah.) So, so um, I have a sun, a sunrise simulating alarm clock that helps me wake up and I still am like, "Okay, it takes me less time to be a little less grumpy," but then I get moving, I run the dog and I start my workout and I have my coffee. I am a morning person use ... Are you a morning person? Like how easy it wasn't for you to like, get up earlier? People are like, "Well, so easy. If you're a morning person, it's just get up early." But, where you one?Jennifer van Barneveld  So, I wasn't one before kids. (Jennifer and Lesley laughs) And my kids were also like, especially my first was always an early riser. Like he was up at 5:30. And so, and he wasn't a great sleeper. So, I was always chronically tired for the first two years. And then I would you know, I would listen to these business coaches, mostly men saying that you should start your day at five. And I found that really sexist almost because, you know, like, just my life at that time. I was like, "There's... no way I can start my day at five when my little kid is like right there and like he needs me." Right. (Lesley: Right) So, it... yeah, you know, it really took some time. I mean, Logan and Jackson now are better sleepers. And so that's why I'm like, "Okay, I know that they're getting up around seven. So, I have one hour to (Lesley: Right) get my workout done." And that's really what pushes me and it's made me a morning person because I feel so much better after it's done. And I'm like, I don't have to worry about that for the rest of the day and I can actually get to work at 9am. Um so so kids has made me morning person plus the fact you're by yourself and you're never by yourself when you have kids. So you actually really do cherish that time in the morning.Lesley Logan  Thank you for sharing that because I think that that's been so helpful for so many people because it is easy. I don't have kids. So people like, "Lesley it's of course easy for you." It's like, "Well, just so you know, three dogs you should see them in the morning." (Lesley and Jennifer laughs) We got people (Jennifer: They need my attention, too) (Jennifer laughs) Yeah. They're like, dogs, one dogs asking for this treat, one wants to go out back, one what's more food ...Jennifer van Barneveld  I have them, I have a little dog now who's not as needy but my first dog was like a baby and he was like a baby like super needy. So I get it. (Lesley and Jennifer laughs)Lesley Logan  Yeah, August is always like at your feet. So you're like in the kitchen and you think he's like to the right of you and you turn and you just trip over him because now the left you because he just has to be touching you. And so, but for the most part, I can like shut them in a room. (Lesley laughs) (Jennifer: Yeah) You can't do that with children. So, um, so okay, um, you have you started your own podcast, recently. Y'all, I'm episode 26, I can remember (Jennifer: Yehey) because it's my birthday January 26. It's really easy. Um, what made you want to start a podcast?Jennifer van Barneveld  Oh my gosh, I wanted to start one for so long. But, I think just like anything, it's that imposter syndrome sets in (Lesley laughs) (Lesley: Daily?) Yeah. And I was like, "Oh my God, who am I to like actually start a podcast" and I'm I never thought of myself as a really clear, great speaker. I think that just comes over time, the more that you do, right. I feel like anything you start, it's normal to feel like an imposter. But I mean, I always wanted to do it. I I'm such a fan of podcasts, I listened to them all the time. So then when I stepped in the role of President of Strong Fitness Magazine, I thought, "Okay, here's my opportunity," because I can I can start interviewing co... the cover models, regular contributors, and, and I was like, "I'm gonna do it. I'm just going to do it. I'm going to do the whole launch." You know, how the launch is? (Jennifer laughs)Lesley Logan  Yeah, it's a it's a, it's a thing, y'all. (Lesley laughs)Jennifer van Barneveld  It's a lot. It's a lot guys. And I just did it. I was like, "You know what, I'm gonna do it." I did it and I absolutely love it. It's been in the top 10 space of fitness podcasts in Canada for like, the last 10 weeks. (Lesley: That's amazing) Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just given me a chance to connect with people like you, learn, talk, you know, (Lesley: Yeah) you know, just just talk and and I'm in Ontario right now, so we're still in lockdown. I told you this before the podcast, we're still in lockdown. And it's been, it's been crazy. So, it's just another fun, you know, outlet that I can get out and chat with people and learn and it's it's been incredible.Lesley Logan  Yeah, I agree. I had been wanting to do this for a long time, but I didn't know what it was going to be. You know, like, I didn't know. Like, I'm like, "Well, what?" Does... not that it has to like, be perfect. But like, I just was like, "What's the point?" Why... (Jennifer: Yeah) because I don't like to waste people's time. Like, "What what do I want them to get out of it?" (Jennifer: Yeah) And I'm so um, so it took a bit and, and then I was able to convince my, my husband that we could do it. He's like, "I don't have time to add a podcast to the three businesses we're running." And I'm like, "But we need it," like, "We can we can do it. People want to hear from us." And, (Jennifer: Totally) so when I met, when Amy started her podcasts, and the people who were the company that like helped ... hers and put it out there, I think I don't know if they do yours, too ...Jennifer van Barneveld  Same. Same. And so Amy was such a huge, (Lesley: huge) and why I started because she was like, "Just do it." (Lesley: Yeah) Like, "Here, here's the blueprint."Lesley Logan  Here it is ... (Jennifer: Yeah) Yeah. And, so so we use Disenyo and they are amazing. Kevin and Bel are amazing. But it's really funny and Brad's like, "I'm so excited. You're doing this. I don't have to be part of it at all." (Jennifer: Yeah) He is, y'all every day like he's really listening to them, their show notes. He's producing the whole thing. He can't (Lesley laughs) (Jennifer: Oh, wow. That's awesome) he's part of it. But um, I, I hear you there is imposter syndrome like, "Who am I? Who wants to listen to me? What do I have to say? There are so many podcasts out there." But like you it's like, "There's, it's really fun for the conversations and the people I've (Jennifer: Yeah) gotten to meet (Jennifer: Yeah) and the people that I've been able to reach out to," because like when on earth, when ... (Lesley laughs) really go, "Okay, do you want to have an hour long conversation with me?" No, (Jennifer: Yeah) but if you have a podcast they do (Lesley laughs) (Jennifer: Sure. Of course) Right? (Jennifer: Yeah) So, um, so yeah, I love ... because I you'll have to listen to it. I listen to it a lot. First of all, I got my four liters of water a day from you, (Jennifer laughs) changed my life. I was only doing two and a half. I was only doing two and a half and I was like, "Gosh, I just always feel like dehydrated. I'm doing so much water" and you're like, three to four liters, and I was like, really? (Jennifer : Yeah) Game changer, y'all. (Lesley laughs)Jennifer van Barneveld  Yeah. It is a game changer. It's total game changer. Yeah, that's why I have this big jug right here. I'm like, super do thrrough... you probably see me take like 10 sips ... (Jennifer laughs)Lesley Logan  Yeah. No, it's, it's, um, it's a game changer. Brad and I like compete like who's got to the four liters before. (Jennifer laughs) (Jennifer: That's awesome) He he's so so we have you know, it's we live in in Las Vegas. So, it's just super dry and when it's that point of the year when we walk at night, it's 90 degrees or hotter. So at 9pm so we have a backpack, a water pack that we walk (Lesley laughs) or drinking water the whole time ...Jennifer van Barneveld  I'm buying one of those. (Lesley: Yeah) I'm totally buying one of those. You just reminded me, you're like the third person that told me so it's like I need to I need to remember this. I'm gonna buy it right after this podcast. (Jennifer laughs)Lesley Logan  Oh, get it. It's it's awesome. We take it on all the dog walks and we have a little bowlllllll so we can like fill up their water for them too. But last night ... I was like, "What are you doing?" He was filling out the water pack. He's like, "This is easier." And he put it on his back to go sit at the computer and he could drink his water (Lesley laughs) while working.Jennifer van Barneveld  Oh my God. That would be a dream come true for me ...Lesley Logan  You are the reason why that we drink four liters of water a day. (Jennifer: Yehey) (Lesley laughs) (Jennifer: Yay!) Okay, Jenny, where can people follow you, find you ... if they want to be on Team Strong Girls like how can they do all of that?Jennifer van Barneveld  Okay, so I have my own website called coachjvb.com. And, I also have my Team Strong Girls website teamstronggirls.com. Same with Instagram @coach_jvb or @teamstronggirls and then you can also find me through Strong Fitness Magazine, if you want to subscribe. I have a Strong Girl discount, which all include, I'll include that link for you. So you can, you know ...Lesley Logan  Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes (Jennifer: ... to your listeners.) That's amazing. You'll have to get one, I have one and I'm getting, I'm surprising my sister. Well, by this time that she hears it, she'll already have it. But for her for her birthday is like an ongoing gift. I'm just going to get (Jennifer: Okay) a subscription because she loves to work out. She's got... she like, you know, she's a bar instructor and a spin instructor like so I'm like, "She's need to have a magazine." So it's a ongoing birthday (Jennifer: Awesome) gift. (Jennifer: That's amazing.) Okay, so all those things will be in the show notes. Check her out, you know, I promise, her posts always inspire me. And, and you can also see that she's beautiful and sweet and loving, supportive and she's also a human being. And some days when I see your posts like, "This is this is what I'm posting for you today." And I'm like, "Yes, I need to know that too." (Lesley laughs) (Jennifer: Thank you, Lesley) Okay, so I'm a big fan of action steps, because I think it's really awesome to be inspired to hear people's stories and to go, "Oh, wow, they did that. I could do that, too." I hope we inspired some people to attempt to start a podcast today. And but but what are the first next steps? So what are your tips for being it?Jennifer van Barneveld  Yeah, so, I mean, I feel like we touched on this today and that is to accept that you are going to have imposter syndrome. Regardless, like everybody has that and it's part of it's part of growth, you know, when you have that imposter syndrome, it is that fear of failure or fear of what people are going to think of you. And that's a normal thing, when you want to do anything, that's a normal thing when you actually want to make a change. And it's accepting it and still doing it anyways. (Lesley: Yeah) You know, I also feel like having a plan is so key when you have a plan, and you have those small action steps towards a plan. And actually doing them you know, like, even if it's just like, one little thing every single day, action beats anxiety, you know, anxiety happens when we're not actually doing the thing that you know, is burning inside of us. (Lesley: Yeah) So those little action steps, like write it out, have a plan, write it out every single day, make the commitment to yourself. I got this from Amy Ledin, she has, you know, her her daily agreement card. (Lesley: Oh my God. That's the best) Yes. I mean, she's awesome. She's helped so many of my clients too. And it's just like, it's just at the end of the day writing out wha... how you want to show up for the next day, like how you want to be your best self for the next day, or what that one goal is and what what is that one action step you're going to take the next day to get you a little closer to that goal. And it's just about being more organized like for me this past few weeks, it was you know, you know this my kids are home now because a lockdown in Ontario, I feel like we're like the only, we're like the only country on this earth that's still in a lockdown by ...Lesley Logan  Oh, at the time of this recording. Melbourne, Australia went into lockdown two days ago. So you're not alone. (Jennifer: We are not alone) At the time in this recording. (Lesley laughs)Jennifer van Barneveld  You feel a little better. But it's like, you know, it's there's a lot on our plates as women, you know, especially if you're a mom, if you're a business owner. A lot is on us. Right? And so it's it's just really about being organized and asking yourself, "Can I, what can I do for myself today? What can I do to get me closer to that goal?" It's writing it down, and it's organizing your time. Like for me, it was waking up a little earlier and just getting that time in for myself so I can start my day on my action steps earlier and actually got them down.Lesley Logan  Yeah. That is really cool. I love that you even like the... the one thing I could be doing because what people I think we underestimate that. Like, if you just did one thing a day towards the thing that's 300... how many days in the year? 352 300... (Lesley laughs) Don't (Jennifer: 365) quote me on that how many days on the year (Jennifer laughs) 65 as a ... (Lesley and Jennifer laughs) You know, I'm on a different planet ... And there's 52 weeks, 365 days got it. So that's a lot of things. That's so many things. (Lesley laughs)Jennifer van Barneveld  Yeah, I feel like people just overwhelmed themselves like, "I got to do..." Or, you know, it's even like starting a ... if you're just looking at starting a fitness program. It's like you're you're not going to be perfect every single day. There's going to be little obstacles along the way. I'm just being okay with that. It's like with anything, you know, you're going to start a new business venture. It's not going to be roses, like we'll we know that, you know, (Jennifer and Lesley laughs) we know that there's going to be things and it's the best thing that you can actually save yourself is correct and continue, move on and don't dwell on what didn't happen, you know? Correct and continue, the more you correct and continue, the more you're going to get closer to where we want to be.Lesley Logan  Oh, that is a great phrase. I love that people can, we can just like ... correct and continue. (Jennifer: Yeah) I love that. I'm like, "I like reflect and refine" ... right, like (Jennifer: I love that.) Yeah, I we have we have some similar things. I feel like we're gonna have to team up on some other things because you (Jennifer: Yeah) say, "Action meets anxiety" and I'm like, "Oh, action is the antidote to fear." It's like ... (Lesley laughs)Jennifer van Barneveld  Yeah, we say it in different ways. (Lesley: Yeah) But it means the same thing.Lesley Logan  Means the same thing and it needs to be said over and over and I think I say it over and over just for myself. (Lesley laughs) Jenny, (Jennifer: Thank you) I love you. I love you, so I can't wait to the borders open up. Either you're gonna come to Vegas or I'm gonna get myself into Canada (Lesley laughs) Yeah. Well, all the shows are open now you... it's gonna maybe maybe give yourself some time in Toronto open up before you like come here, you'll be like a definitely a different world. (Jennifer: Yeah, exactly) Going from lockdown to Vegas.Jennifer van Barneveld  I'm counting down. I'm counting down the days.Lesley Logan  Um, but everyone thank you so much for listening. Please do us a favor screenshot this. Post it on Instagram tag the @be_it_pod and tag @coach_jvb, her her Instagram is on the show notes, if you need to see what it looks like and you let us know how you are Be It Till You See It. Until next time, Be It Till You See It my friends. Love you!Lesley Logan  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!Lesley Logan  'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan  Kevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad Crowell  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad Crowell  And the Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, well-being friends and welcome to the Path to Well-Being in Law podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I'm your cohost CHRIS:, Executive Vice President of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. And again, most of, I think, our listeners know what our goal is but let me reiterate that we love bringing on to the podcast thought leaders in the well-being space doing meaningful work to advance the profession and to in the process build and nurture a national network of well-being advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. CHRIS: Let me introduce my cohost Bree Buchanan. Bree, how are you doing? And how has your summer been? BREE BUCHANAN: Hey Chris, it has been wonderful. I get to be here in Eugene, Oregon so it's just beautiful and getting to do a lot of fun things. I'm really blessed with that. And I just wanted to say, Chris, you're talking about thought leaders and as regards to our guest today, Jen really is, she's not only a thought leader in this space but she's also a teacher of future thought leaders. So we're really glad that we got Jen with us today. CHRIS: Yeah. We got a great guest today. And we are in the midst right now of spending a three-part miniseries within the podcast of really looking in terms of what's going on in the law schools. We know that they are training the next generation in our profession and we know that these issues are becoming much more acutely aware in the environment. We started off our law school series with Linda Sugin from Fordham Law School and we will be followed in our next podcast by Janet Stearns who comes to us from the Miami School of Law. CHRIS: But today's about Penn Law and introducing our, we're really excited to have Jennifer Leonard join us on the podcast. Bree, will you do the honors of introducing Jen. BREE: I'd be delighted. So Jen Leonard is Penn Law's, get this title, I love this, Chief Innovation Officer and Executive Director of the Future of the Profession Initiative. Jen's work at Penn Law focuses on developing a deep understanding of what legal professionals need to be successful in the face of constant transformation. Isn't that true? Working with a collaborative group of colleagues across the law school in the profession, Jen designs ways to educate new law students about changes in the profession and the skills they need to thrive in the future. BREE: Before assuming her current role, she served as Associate Dean for Professional Engagement and Director of the Center of Professionalism at Penn Law. And prior to that, she was Chief of Staff to the City Solicitor of Philadelphia and a Litigation Associate with a Center City law firm, and a Judicial Law Clerk. And then Jen went home when she went to work at Penn Law because she's a graduate from there in 2004 from the law school and Penn State University with high honors. Jen's also a frequent writer and speaker on the issues that include lawyer and law student well-being. So Jen, thank you for being here today and welcome. JENNIFER LEONARD: Wow. Thank you so much, Chris and Bree. I'm so excited to be here. And thank you for that lovely introduction. BREE: You bet. So Jen, one of the things we always ask our guests because it provides such interesting information and background and insight into the people that we have with us, tell us what brought you into the lawyer/law student well-being movement. The people that work in this space and really care about it, they have a passion for the work. And typically, there's something that's driving that. So tell us a little bit about that, what that means for you. JENNIFER: Yeah. First of all, I'm so excited that there is an actual movement now around attorney well-being and law student well-being. BREE: Right. JENNIFER: That's an exciting development and a recent development, which I think many law students don't fully understand because they have arrived at law school at a time when the movement is accelerating and is growing which is fantastic. JENNIFER: I have first-hand experience being a law student who really struggled with well-being issues including depression and anxiety and also some of the really common things that law students experience, imposter syndrome, not fully understanding that I wasn't expected to know how to be a skilled attorney on day one. Most attorneys, hopefully, if they've had a really great practice will retire still growing and still learning new things. And I did not understand as a very confused and disoriented OneL that I was just at the beginning of a journey and I felt very isolated and very sort of inept in the environment and that was stunning to me because I had spent my whole life just absolutely loving school from being four years old and pretending to be a teacher in my basement with my friends all the way through graduating from college, it was just the place I felt most alive and most comfortable. JENNIFER: And law school was a completely different experience. I felt very uncomfortable from day one. My involvement in the well-being movement, I would say, is sort of an accident that followed from that experience which followed me into practice and I certainly experienced many of the challenges that the research shows around depression and anxiety in private practice. When I moved over to government work, because of the constraints of resources, you're just sort of thrown into the fire and forced to grow on your own. And that was actually really helpful for me for building confidence and learning that I actually had the capacity to do amazing things if I really gave myself the time to develop and the opportunity to develop. JENNIFER: So when I came to the law school in 2013 and started counseling law students, it was sort of a revelation to me as I sat across from younger versions of myself that they were saying to me the exact same things that I was saying in my own head as a OneL. And that was the first time even 10 years after law school that it occurred to me that I was not the only person who had this experience. And I really wanted to prevent future generations of law students from making the mistake and thinking they weren't capable and not allowing themselves to live up to their potential and contribute to society in the profession. JENNIFER: So I started building some programming, co curricular programming at first, and then programming that eventually became woven into our formal curriculum after the National Task Force report came out. And so I was just thrilled to see the movement grow over time and now to have part in leading some of those initiatives at the law school. CHRIS: Jen, today we're going to talk about the work of you and your colleagues at Penn Law. Let's set the stage a little bit. Tell us about Penn Law, your location, size, focus, types of students, and give us a flavor for the type of law school that you work within. JENNIFER: Well, I have the great pleasure of working at a phenomenal law school. The University of Pennsylvania Carey Law School which is located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. We draw students from all over the world, approximately 250 incoming first-year JDs every year from all over the country and 115 LLM students from around the world who contribute just such a diversity and complexity of perspectives to our experience that we really are a global leader in legal education. And I'm excited to work at Penn as a broader university because its founder Benjamin Franklin really focused on two elements of education that I think are critical to our success. JENNIFER: One is a real focus on interdisciplinarity and learning across different disciplines about how to solve problems and that is a lot of what my work entails, building connections with our colleagues in innovation spaces across Penn's campus. And the second element is really bringing a blend of high-minded intellectual research and academic efforts in translating that work into things that can really have impact in the real world. And so it's the perfect place to be developing innovative projects including some of our work in the well-being space and seeing how that work translates in our profession. BREE: So speaking of innovation, I just think that you have the coolest job title I've ever seen. Chief Innovation Officer and Executive Director of the Future of the Profession Initiative. Tell us about that. How did all that come about? And tell us about that initiative. JENNIFER: Oh, thank you. I love my job. I do get to have the coolest title. And I think if I were to make a long story short, I think it's that I chirped enough about all the changes I'd love to see in legal education and in the profession that somebody finally gave me the opportunity to focus just on that. And the longer story is that our dean was really interested in thinking about all the changes happening in the legal profession and how a leading law school really has both an obligation and an opportunity to respond to that change so that our students are entering the profession prepared with the skills they need to thrive and to also lead the profession into the next phase of its existence. JENNIFER: So I had the chance to work with colleagues across the law school and then through our advisory board of alumni all across the profession to iterate and refine the vision for what ultimately became the future of the profession initiative, which I now have the great honor and privilege of leading. CHRIS: Tell me about the scope of that initiative. I'm just curious what you're looking at and what you're hoping to poke and prod around into. JENNIFER: Sure. We have three different buckets of projects that we work on. And I'm part of a day-to-day team of three people, two of my colleagues Jim Sandman who is President Emeritus of Legal Services Corporation and now's our senior consultant and Miguel Willis who is the Executive Director of Access to Justice Tech Fellows which is now formally affiliated with FPI. And Jim, Miguel, and I and our colleagues work on developing new curricular and co curricular offerings that are responsive to the changing conditions in the legal profession. So Jim teaches courses on leadership in law, Miguel and our advisory board member Claudia Johnson teaches courses on law, technology, and access to justice, I teach courses on user center design for the better delivery of legal services. JENNIFER: And so we focus on teaching students about the skills that they need to respond to future conditions. We also focus on leading conversations across the profession of leaders who are doing really interesting things in legal. And those conversations take the form of a podcast, the Law 2030 podcast, a monthly newsletter where we bring in voices not only from the legal profession but from across Penn's campus, across other fields to help us navigate change, to teach us what they're doing in their respective environments that we can draw lessons from. And then finally, we're building out projects for impact, things that we can do from the unique position of being a research university that can have real-world impact. So Jim is working on a variety of projects related to regulatory reform, finding new ways to connect people with legal systems. Jim's focused also on court simplification and form simplification so that it's easier for individuals and small businesses to access the legal profession. JENNIFER: So we teach, we lead conversations and we do it all within the goal of transforming the way we deliver legal services to our clients. CHRIS: That sounds like pretty cool work. JENNIFER: It's so much fun- BREE: I know. JENNIFER: And really, really engaging and worthwhile and so lucky to do it. BREE: I just think you must be so excited to go to work every day. JENNIFER: Totally. CHRIS: Anyone who gets to put the word future in their job description, I think that's pretty fun to be able to look out at. JENNIFER: Oh, it's so fun. CHRIS: So Jen, you've been back now at Penn Law I think in a professional capacity for about eight years. Let's talk a little bit about what you're seeing in the law school environment. Share with our listeners some of the well-being issues you've seen coming out of the student body, issues that students are facing. And how have those issues affected their law school and, in many cases, their post law school experience? JENNIFER: Yeah. So I think, again, to draw from my own experience both as a law student who struggled with these issues and also as somebody who had the chance to counsel students in a career counseling capacity early on in my time at the law school, I would say the biggest thing that I saw and see among students is the idea of imposter syndrome. When you are in an environment where you're surrounded by really talented people who come from all different backgrounds, all different educational degrees, you look around and you think, "How can I be here with all of these smart people around me?" And then you have the opportunity to engage in Socratic dialogue with learned professors and legal scholars at the top of their fields. JENNIFER: And I found it to be, and in my experience talking with first-year law students, some of them also find it to be very overwhelming. And I think that helping them adopt a mindset, a learner's mindset, that you are here because you deserve to be here is a rigorous process for admission. And our admission's office doesn't make mistakes. You should be here. And you are here at the very beginning of what will be a very long journey where you will grow a significant amount over the course of your life. So expecting yourself to understand the complexities of law in the first couple months, I think, is unrealistic. And so helping students understand that all lawyers have been in their shoes, that the people around them who seem the most confident are frequently the ones who are struggling the most and sometimes that manifests as overconfidence or projection of overconfidence which can feed into that imposter syndrome. JENNIFER: And I think just helping students adopt a growth mindset that will allow them to, I don't like to use the word fail, I like to use the word learn, learn from missteps, learn from early misunderstandings of the law, learn even in their Socratic dialogue which was particularly challenging for me. I'm introverted by nature. And I viewed everything as a judgment on me and if I wasn't doing it perfectly, that meant I wasn't capable of doing it. And so supporting students in understanding that they are in a developmental process that is rigorous and at the end will benefit them tremendously if they can adopt that learner's mindset. BREE: I just love how you framed that and that must be so incredibly helpful for the students that you talk to. I definitely dealt with imposter syndrome. I know that a lot of people have but I didn't have the language for it. Do you talk to the students about, do you name it? Do you tell them what imposter syndrome is? JENNIFER: Yeah. I would say most students now coming in are familiar with it from their undergrad work or other graduate work, which is fantastic. As you know, Bree, there was no language when we were in law school for imposter syndrome. It didn't even exist. So we're already starting at a more advanced point. And also the concept of growth mindset is something that people are learning about at a younger and younger age. My kids are in daycare and kindergarten and are already learning about growth mindset. So in 20 years, we'll be admitting people to law school who either they don't need to learn learner's mindset and they don't need to learn the importance of growth mindset. We will be much more ahead of the game. JENNIFER: Now, I think we're in this exciting chapter where we're finally opening up the conversation and naming the issues as you're saying. And students are much more comfortable, I think, than our generation was at being open about the challenges, which is really, really not only helpful for advancing the conversation but helpful for your own mental health to be engaged with other people who are experiencing the same thing. CHRIS: Talk to us about some of the well-being initiatives that make you most proud. You've obviously put a lot of time and attention into creating a culture where people's issues are respected and there's vulnerability and empathy. Talk to us about what are some of the things that you are most proud of in terms of what it does and some of the things that you've been doing. JENNIFER: It's funny, Chris, because I will talk about the thing that we've done that I'm most proud of and on behalf of my colleagues because these are really collaborative efforts across the law school, not just from FPI. But also, what I'm most excited about for the future, but I would say that I'm most proud of our leadership at our school led by our dean really embracing the recommendations of the National Task Force report and developing the opportunity to come into all of our upper level professional responsibility courses which are the only courses that are required after the first year of law school. So it's the only course where we will reach every student before they graduate outside of what is a very challenging and jampacked first year curriculum and talk to the students about these issues and talk to them about what the task force revealed, the current state of the research, some of the potential causes for the challenges we see in the legal profession, why those challenges relate to the provision of legal services. JENNIFER: One thing that I've learned in doing this programming over the years to the great credit of the students is sometimes they don't want to focus as much on these issues just for their own benefit. And even though there are great benefits to doing that, what they really want to know is what does this have to do with being a lawyer? How does this impact my lawyering and my clients? And our solution to that was really to talk to them about exactly that. How does this impact the provision of service to your clients? How can you give the best legal counsel you're capable of if you're not well? How are the ways that we can elevate our well-being? And bringing in experts, I am not a mental health expert, I have the experience of being somebody who was challenged with these issues, but we bring in voices from the mental health community who are trained professionals to talk with the students about some of the challenges that professionals face. JENNIFER: And so I have been the most proud to work with my colleague John Hollway as well to deliver those lessons and guide those discussions in our professional responsibility courses. I'll also say that I was most excited, our dean offered the opportunity to all of the faculty who teach professional responsibility in the upper levels, this is not a mandate by any stretch of the imagination, it was just a chance for them to do it if they wanted. Every single professional responsibility faculty member welcomed us in, has repeatedly welcomed us to come back, and they were really excited to see the law school doing this. So that is what I would say I'm most proud of to date, and again, with my colleagues developing this. JENNIFER: What I'm most proud of in the future is moving into the next phase of that conversation and having a more unified discussion between law schools and legal employers and law firms so that we're not having one conversation at the law school level and helping students develop responsive coping behaviors to respond to stress that work in a law school environment but maybe don't work in practice to thinking about the environments and the systems within which we practice and seeing how we can transform those environments so that it's a shared responsibility between schools and employers and individual students and lawyers to really lift all boats and be sure that we can practice at the highest level. So that is the next phase of our work and we're actively thinking about how we can do that in the best possible way. CHRIS: Yeah. There's no doubt that the work that you are doing and, again, lots of folks in law schools are doing, if we prepare them for a profession that ultimately is very different than what we just did to create those senses of what practicing law's going to be like and if it's very different there's going to be a disconnect, as you mentioned. JENNIFER: Exactly. And we want to teach them skills that they're able to deploy over their entire career, not just skills that will work for the next year or two. How can we bring in more collaborative partners from practice so that we're bridging that gap, bridging that divide more? And how are we thinking about redeveloping systems so that people can have more balance in their life and really be healthier, happier lawyers who are better serving their clients? CHRIS: Yeah. JENNIFER: It's a huge task but one that- CHRIS: It is a huge task and maybe we can come back and touch on this coming back from the break. It feels like to be able to do that, you're going to have to bring those thought leaders in the legal environments into the law school though, almost have them go through their own reflection points about how they think about culture and how they value the attorneys within the firm from a well-being perspective. JENNIFER: And I think that's where we have the real ability to do that is our convening ability and we can do that and we can also bring in our colleagues from Penn Medicine and Penn Engineering. And what are their students and professionals experiencing? And then some of our psychology partners across campus to come in and talk about the complex interplay among professional satisfaction, finance, and some of these mental health conditions that elite professionals experience and how can we work together to come up with some new solutions to the problems. And I think that a law school is the perfect place to do that. CHRIS: Yeah. JENNIFER: And I would love to involve the students because I think that they would be really interested in having the conversation as well and having some agency and some involvement in driving that change. BREE: No doubt. CHRIS: Yeah. So let's take a quick break here because, again, I think we're getting into the meat and potatoes, so to speak, of what you're working to do and why it's going to be, I think, so important in terms of the future of our professionals. Let's take a short break. JENNIFER: Sounds great.   — Advertisement: Meet Vera, your firm's virtual ethics risk assessment guide developed by ALPS. Vera's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake to calendaring to cyber security and more. Vera: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed and to keep your firm on the right path.   Generous and discreet, Vera is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS to help firms like yours be their best. Visit Vera at https://www.alpsinsurance.com/vera. — BREE: So welcome back, everybody. And we have with us today Jen Leonard who is one of the, I'll say, one of the leading thought leaders around well-being for law students. She is joining us today from Penn Law. And continue in the conversation, Jenn, I think what I'd really like for us to talk about now is focus in on what advice you can give to our listeners out there who are with a law school who are thinking about how to implement some programs, maybe something you've mentioned, something that they have decided they want to pursue on their own. And one of the biggest things within a large school is to get buy in from leadership and I heard you say earlier on that you do have buy in from your top leadership. How did that happen with the administration? And how did you get buy in from the faculty? JENNIFER: So amazing question. Yes. I would say the biggest driver of our success is really the leadership of our dean who is very interested in these topics and interested in supporting our students in developing into the best attorneys they can be. And I can't overstate how much that matters. Our faculty, I would say, are similarly supportive and the culture at our school is, we joke that people talk about it as a collegial culture all the time, but it really is this Quaker-based culture of collegiality and collaboration. So I feel very, very fortunate and maybe uniquely situated as compared with some of your listeners who might be trying to build these programs at other schools. JENNIFER: But what I would say is even if you don't have those conditions, I would not be discouraged. What I would do is I would be strategic. If you want to start well-being initiatives at your own law school, I would say start small and find the people who will be the cheerleaders for you who have voices that people will listen to. One group of voices that are really compelling to faculty and administrators alike are students. So if you have students coming to you who are interested in these topics, and as I said, I think students coming into law school now are so much more well-versed in these issues from their undergrad and other experiences that the movement is growing even among students. So being able to channel those voices and respond to them as an administration is really important. If you can find a faculty member who is really interested or who has had experience with students in their classes who have been challenged around some of these issues and would like to help you build a program, that's fantastic. JENNIFER: But you can build co curricular offerings, I would say that's the best way to start is to offer programs, maybe a brown bag lunch from students at lunchtime, bring in some alumni who are interested in this. I find in my experience that alumni who are practicing law and who are experiencing the stresses of practicing law are really, really interested in reaching back and supporting new law students and they're also really well-respected among the student body. And it also doesn't cost a lot of money usually to bring in an alum to have lunch with students and especially now that we do so many things on Zoom, have some of your alumni Zoom in and talk about things they wish they'd known when they were law students and how they've grown over time. As I said, it doesn't have to be expensive. But if you start small and you're willing to learn and you're willing to get feedback from students on how to improve and iterate the programming over time, then you can start building from there. CHRIS: Jen, it feels like what you're also inferring, correct me if I'm misstating it, is that you are in your effort to nurture the culture within the law school itself, there certainly is a student centric approach to that and just trying to understand where they're at, why they're there, again, how we can assist them on the journey, not just from a law knowledge perspective but also the mental approach to preparing them to become a lawyer down the road? JENNIFER: That's absolutely right. And I love that you say a student centric approach. In our sort of general innovation programming outside of well-being, we're really focused on human centered design. So if you apply that lens to the law student experience, what are we as administrators providing to our students and what is that provision of education and experience like from their perspective? And the way to do that is to really have conversations with student groups, maybe you have a student group in your building that you don't even know about that is focused on well-being. We have a wellness committee of students who are interested in these topics, so meeting with them and learning about what they would find really helpful and building support from there, I would say. Bringing the student voice in is critical though. CHRIS: Yeah. And I know, again, I graduated from a law school class that had 75 students which is significantly less than your incoming classes. And it certainly feels like the faster that you create communities of students together or feeling that you can find people that you can relate to within the law school environment, the more that you got people that just feel more comfortable, avoid the imposter syndrome, and then hopefully we're preparing them for an opportunity to prosper as they go through the law school journey. JENNIFER: That's right. And I think also one other tip could be maybe if you feel that the environment's not receptive to well-being programming or you're having trouble gaining traction, there are programs that you can create that are not explicitly well-being programs but that have the corollary benefit of creating enhanced well-being in your institution. And those programs can be about team building and collaboration and legal practice skills and how those interpersonal impact skills are really being deployed in practice. And they have the benefit of building community among the students, as my colleague John talks about it. He talks about it like fluoride in the water, that you don't really know that it's there but in the end it has the impact of building a healthier environment around you. BREE: Let's talk about getting to the nitty gritty, which is the cost of some of these programs which could be another barrier for somebody to implement. What is, I guess, the fiscal impact of the programs that you put together? And do you have any suggestions for people about that? JENNIFER: I would say that most of the programming we have done costs virtually nothing to do aside from maybe the cost of providing lunch, if you're providing lunch to your students. Having alumni come in and do a panel discussion about some of these issues, if you're at a law school that's connected with a broader university that has a counseling and psychological services group where you can have trained mental health professionals come in and have a conversation with students will cost nothing. Even the professional responsibility module we built out costs nothing to do, other than the energy investment in building the program and engaging our professors and getting their buy in. It is a lot of sweat equity that you will put into these programs but the actual cost of running them is minimal, I would say. JENNIFER: So I would say no matter what your law school's budget is, not to be deterred around having these conversations of building a community that is supportive of them. CHRIS: Bree knows that one of the, I sit in a management role at an insurance company, so we're always data geeks about trying to figure out how do we measure success. And again, the well-being space is such an interesting one in terms of how do you know that you're, so to speak, advancing the ball? How do you feel like you're making an impact in terms of, again, preparing students for the practice of law? And as you think about your work on a day-to-day basis, are there certain metrics that you look at or is it a little bit more instinctual and you just know that you're making an impact but in small and significant ways? JENNIFER: Yeah. I would say our return on investment are the qualitative reports that we have from students and alumni versus more hard data. We've certainly used research from other places to guide our efforts so some of the research that Sheldon and [Krieger 00:34:20] have done about the shift from intrinsic motivation to extrinsic motivation in the first year we fold into our conversations with students. But in terms of measuring outcomes, I think professional skill development is notoriously difficult to measure impact around but I talk with alumni who are five or six years now who seem to me to be very healthy and happy and thriving and really happy with their law school experience because of the community, and it's not because of the well-being programs in particular, but because of the community that we've been able to cultivate here and the support that we provide to our students. JENNIFER: And we take a tremendous amount of feedback and we have been careful about measuring the feedback from students in the PR modules and finding ways to pivot and iterate and adjust to student feedback. And one of the pieces of feedback that I referenced earlier or the place where we want to move next is thinking about these systems. So students are curious about how our environment's adapting to the research that people in the profession are doing around some of these challenges and how can we be a part of that as well. So it's more qualitative admittedly than quantitative but it's certainly I can feel a shift. I know that it's a different environment from when I was a student there and I can only say from the students to whom I have said, "You are not alone in this," those of us in the building have experienced this that the look of relief and sometimes surprise is really significant feedback to me. BREE: Yeah. Jen, just before we wrap up I just have to acknowledge the time we're in and the context of this podcast which is coming up on a year and a half in the pandemic. So can you talk a little bit about the impact of that on your student body and what you guys at Penn Law have done to address that? JENNIFER: So what I can talk about, Bree, is how we adapted the module that we present to the students and the professional responsibility course. We adapted it pretty significantly over the last year and a half in response to all of the things that happened in 2020, the pandemic, the dislocation, the disconnection in our communities, the social uprising around racial injustice across the globe, the political polarization that we're all experiencing. It's been a lot to process and then to sit and talk with law students about their well-being, the conversation had to be different than the conversation we were having with them in December of 2019. BREE: Absolutely. JENNIFER: Some of the adjustments that we made were bringing in more voices from our counseling and psychological services offices, particularly counselors that are trained on racial identity coming in to talk with students about the experience of being historically under represented person or group in a majority institution at a time when we're going through everything that we're going through. So we brought in that element to our conversations. JENNIFER: We also brought in junior alumni who are in practice to share some of their experiences on the ground, which was a response to student feedback that they really wanted to hear from our recent graduates about specifically some of the things that they're dealing with in practice and how they're responding to them. We talked a lot about toxic positivity. So there have been articles about the idea that telling people they should be adopting positive mindsets in the face of everything that's happening is not helpful and that it's okay right now not to feel okay. And I would say that our approach really was much more student led this year. We really wanted to hear from students how they were responding to the stressful conditions, what had been helpful to them, what were their anxieties and concerns, and then having a trained mental health professional in the room with us to respond to that, and also some people who were dealing with the issues in practice. It was a much more team-oriented approach I think to having these conversations. And I hope it was a more supportive experience for the students and gave them the opportunity to process some of the things they were dealing with. CHRIS: Jen, I want to ask maybe one more question. I have to imagine that as you've visualized where a student starts and where a student walks across the podium and receives that diploma is a journey in the law school. When you look at that journey, are you visualizing what does first year look like, what does second year look like, what does third year look like from a wellness perspective and how you're trying to nurture that as a complement to the curriculum? JENNIFER: Yeah. I think as the programming has evolved, we have definitely adjusted the programming to be more developmentally appropriate depending on the level of experience of the student. So to your point, there are very specific times during the first year of law school that are different in nature than the stressors that our second and third-year students face. So thinking about how stressful it is about a month in advance of your first set of law school exams and how are we helping students feel supported there versus when they're getting close to practice and we're having more contextualized conversations about the rigors of practice itself and some of the stressors that they face in client representation. And that was how we evolved into having a more upper level approach that is also combined with our still ongoing and fantastic professionalism program that is offered in the first year which is co curricular. JENNIFER: So we have been thoughtful about adjusting depending on where the student is. I would say another hallmark of our dean's leadership and our current approach to legal education is really taking a lifelong view of the formation of a lawyer. So you referenced the podium which is a perfect visual, Chris, for thinking about where you are at that point and what is to come and how we as a law school can continue to be your partner. And we've done alumni programming on attorney well-being that is a more advanced version of the PR module that we do and the reception to that is different because, of course, our alumni are actually in practice and have different contexts than our students have. And we have even deeper conversations with them about what it's like to be in practice and what some of the well-being challenges are there. JENNIFER: So we are definitely taking a, no pun intended, a graduated approach to the way that we talk with students about well-being. And I would also say too, I wanted to go back to the question about tips for people developing these programs in their schools. I would say too if the sense is or if you anticipate pushback being that it's too warm and fuzzy or it's diluting the rigor of the program, something to that effect. What I would say is that when I think about the way that we're supporting students, it should be a really intense physical workout. You don't want somebody who's leading a really rigorous exercise session to go easy on you because at the end you're not going to feel like you grew at all. What you do want is a coach to help you work through the really tough parts which is where the transformation happens and I think the analogy works for lawyer formation. JENNIFER: There are really, really tough parts where as a student I didn't feel that supported and I felt very alone. And I think I probably did not push through and grow in the way that I could have had I had a bit more coaching and get more support and that's how I think about the service that we're providing by implementing well-being programming along the way. CHRIS: Yeah. And I think it's interesting that the firms that are likely hiring your students are also now talking a little bit more about the wellness components associated with, in the talent acquisition process. And I'm wondering whether you're doing something similar. You're a highly-respected law school, whether your commitment to this particular issue of well-being and wellness of the student body as part of the experience is also coming into play as you think about the recruitment and the admissions process. JENNIFER: I haven't actively thought about how it would be appealing to applicants to law school. I think as a school, again, our collegial nature is our hallmark and what we think makes us a very strong community where ideally people would want to come and learn. But I think you're right in the sense that increasingly students and aspiring professionals are looking to be in environments where they can grow and learn and be tested and challenged but also supported and develop really strong connections along the way and feel great about what they're doing. And so to the extent that that is a secondary benefit, that's fantastic. I think savvy legal employers are thinking about how to better support their attorneys so that they are not losing that talent. JENNIFER: I think one of the really undesirable outcomes of our failure to pay attention to these issues for so long is the hemorrhaging of enormous amounts of talent from the profession. BREE: Absolutely. JENNIFER: And imagine what we can accomplish together if we just adjusted and had deeper conversations and develop new solutions so that we keep all that brilliant talent working to support the health of society. BREE: Wow. CHRIS: What a great way to end the podcast. I think that's exactly right and indicative, Jen, of again why we see you and your experience at Penn Law as being so much a part of, again, realizing the potential of our profession and how important it is that we focus on these particular areas. Any closing comments, Jen, before we close it out? JENNIFER: Thank you so much for having me on. And again, I really just want to give credit to the entire Penn Law community, alumni, students, colleagues, faculty, staff, administration. This is a team effort and I have the honor of being a spokesperson today but it is far from a solo mission. CHRIS: Well Jen, we certainly are very thankful and grateful for all of your contributions and, again, I think there's a lot of takeaways in your experience at Penn Law that I think can really have ... If our goal ultimately is to engineer a culture shift in the profession, it starts with individuals like you and we thank you so much for your work and your leadership. BREE: We have much to learn. JENNIFER: Thank you so much. BREE: Yeah. JENNIFER: Thank you both so much for what you do to drive this conversation and lead thoughts and conversations like this. So grateful. CHRIS: Yeah. That was Jennifer Leonard of Penn Law School. And again, we'll be back in a couple weeks with Janet Stearns of the Miami School of Law as we continue and close out our law school focus. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you in a couple weeks.

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...   www.marissafayecohen.com/signs-of-a-toxic-relationship Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.   Marissa: Welcome back to the healing from emotional abuse philosophy. I'm so excited today to bring on Jennifer. She is the host of a podcast called Living With An Invisible Learning Challenge. She's also a survivor of sexual assault and abuse from Southern California. And she's here today because she wants to support other survivors of sexual abuse and be able to speak for people with learning challenges who are affected by sexual assault. Her mission is to support those who might be afraid to speak out for themselves and fear the consequences and retaliation that they may face. Thank you so much for being here. Jennifer. I'm excited to chat with you today.    Jennifer: I'm excited to do this, too.    Marissa: So first and foremost, would you feel comfortable telling us your story?    Jennifer: Yes, I do. So my story is that I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. Though every survivor story and journey to healing is different. I think we'd all agree it's difficult. It's probably the hardest thing we'll ever go through. But what I know for certain is my journey has made me who I am today. The abuse began when I was about six and ended when I was 12 and disclosed. My cousin was my abuser. He was two years older than me. When it began, I was too young to understand what was happening and when I eventually disclosed, I had no idea what it would do to the rest of my family, or how my life would change. Let me stop here to provide some context first, because my growing up was different. My cousin's family and mine were very close. We lived near each other and my parents and my aunt work together. I have a brother and my cousin had just one sister then. On top of that, we were home schooled at the place where my parents and Aunt worked. Our grandmother was our primary caretaker, and my parents and Aunt would take turns teaching us our classes throughout the work day. We were super close, and were always together. And even after my cousin's family moved to the east coast, my brother and I learned to visit them nine or 10 times in those first years. One more piece of information is relevant for context. I have a learning challenge. I'm not neuro-typical, I didn't know that during the abuse. But in my sophomore year at college, I was diagnosed with NLD, which stands for nonverbal learning disability, it is something I was born with. I'll say more about that later. So about the abuse. I'm not sure if this exactly counts as sexual abuse. But the abuse began with my cousin taking me into a closet and ping me when I was about six years old. Eventually, he began to sexually abused me. I think I was about eight years old the first time, I didn't know what it was at the time. And I don't know how he knew anything about sex. I definitely didn't. But I trusted him because he was my cousin. The age difference made me feel like he had power over me and I was powerless. Because we spent our days together, regular access was easy. And even after they moved away, because we made so many frequent trips to see them the abuse continued at their house. It continued, and I got older, I started to have strong feelings that this was really wrong. The very last time it happened was when my cousin came to California to visit us. He had been giving his parents a lot of grief and my mom wanted to help my aunt out. My mom thought that maybe if he came to visit us in California, it would help. Of course, she didn't know anything at the time about the abuse. I felt scared about the idea of him coming. During that visit, He abused me three more times. His abuse had started with picking on me, and over the years went from that to intercourse, and the last time he tried to put his penis in my bottom. It hurts so badly that I stopped by yelling stop. I decided that was going to be the last time. I asked him what would happen if I told anyone, he said that we would get into trouble. But I knew he was only one that would get into trouble. I don't know why I didn't disclose to my parents sooner, probably because it took a long time before I really understood what was happening. But looking back at it, now, knowing what I know about people with NLD, I think that also influenced it. I was too naive and trusting. People with NLD are prone to being so. I always believed what I was told, and never questioned anyone older than me. Even at 24, I still sometimes struggle thinking that anyone would ever lie to me or try to deceive me. I still tend to believe whatever someone tells me.    I remember vividly the day I disclosed to my mother. It was a Saturday morning, my cousin was still visiting us on that trip. My mom was getting ready for the day and I told her I needed to talk to her. I felt nervous about telling her. When I got up the courage to disclose, I said something like mom, he is putting his pee-pee in my pee-pee. Clearly I didn't even have the words. She was shocked. At first she couldn't believe that, because we hadn't had the talk about sex yet. So she grabbed one of those facts of life books with some very basic pictures, and asked me to describe and show her what I meant by what I said. I showed her and then she completely lost it. She broke down sobbing reassuring, that she believed me and repeatedly saying, “How could this have happened? I'm so sorry. I failed you.” She immediately called my dad and told him to come home. Right away. It was urgent. She met him in the driveway and told him what I had just disclosed.    There was a whole cascade of events that have followed my disclosure. My aunt flew out. My grandparents got involved. A detective was called to take a report, Child Protective Services came, I had a physical exam, which was frightening and painful. There were lots of tears all around, my cousin and Aunt flew back east and we were left figuring out what to do. We decided not to press charges at that time since my cousin no longer lived near us.  I began therapy which I continued for five years. I had triggers all through high school, but it lessened as I learned more coping skills in therapy. Therapy helped a lot. I learned several really valuable coping skills like lucid dreaming, using affirmations to make myself feel safe and journaling, to name a few. Meanwhile, things between our families were getting very bad. The other side was minimizing what happened, calling it merely show ant tell. They did not believe it had gone as far as it had. They felt my cousin and I were equally responsible. Things got very ugly with my aunt and uncle and grandfather pushing hard for us to forgive, and blaming, shaming and faulting us when we weren't ready. How could we be no acknowledgment of what happened from my cousin or his family had ever been given. I don't think it ever will. Our two families are estranged to this day. It was sometime after I had disclosed that we learned that there had been another incident of my cousin abusing another cousin. That cousin's parents decided to press charges. My family and I even flew out to the east coast to sit in the courtroom to support her. It was a difficult but powerful experience. And the judge found my cousin guilty and he was put on probation.    He was required to go into counseling and he was forbidden to have any contact with the other family. There were more parts to his sentencing, but I don't remember them all. When I learned about the other girl and their families decisions to press charges, I decided that I want to press charges too. I told my parents and I had their full support. We began that process. We had a hearing in front of the judge. We would have been gone to trial. But in the end the outcome would not have been any different since we were both minors. Originally, I thought I wanted to go to trial because not doing so felt like the abuse would be minimized. But then I knew what that was like for my other cousin, the other girl, he abused. And I decided we'd all had gone through enough. Two traumas really, the sexual abuse and the breakup of our families. I was able to present a victim impact statement, as did several other family members who were with me. I was the last one to read mine. And in doing so I was able to describe how the abuse has affected my life and my family.    Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you went through. How are you feeling now, after talking about it?    Jennifer: Well, I feel much better. Because each time I share it with somebody, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. And it gets easier to say it. So, it does get easier to share it each time.    Marissa: Thank you. I definitely agree with that. I think that the more you talk about it, the more it just kind of flows. The less impact it has on you. So you wrote that just to be prepared. Right? So you wrote your story, which was great. Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you experienced in the actual abuse, but then even, especially the aftermath with your family. How do you feel now having gone through that process? Did it make you feel better at the time and now?    Jennifer: Yeah, going through the process with the hearing and the judge? It did make me feel better, because it made me feel like my cousin, I guess you could say, got punished for what he did. And the judge made me feel hurt because I remember during that time when I was 12, I felt like really nobody except for my immediate family believed me and believed my story. And I remember trying to understand why is all this happening. And just trying to wrap my head around all the family drama and interactions. And just trying to understand what was going on. And it was almost like it was kinda a tornado. And just like, what is happening around me?    Marissa: Totally understand. It's just very chaotic. Do you think having an invisible learning challenge, amplified the abuse or made the chaos of everything even worse?    Jennifer: So yes, I do think nonverbal learning disability, the acronym is NLD and NVLD played a part, which I learned about in my sophomore year of college. That's when I was diagnosed, I think it played a part because those people tend to be like I said, in my story, they tend to be more naive and trusting of people. And that's because they tend to have less life experience. And they tend to be more trusting even strangers. And because of them trying to catch up on the life experience that usually affects their trust issues. And even with the trauma that has made my trust issues more amplified, you can say,    Marissa: That makes a really good point, you made a really good point. I think another reason people with NLD are victimized more often because of the stigma and mental health. Right? So when when you have a mental health or a learning challenge, it's less likely that people like professionals will believe you. Or even, just anyone will believe you and you said that's kind of what you experienced. Right?    Jennifer: Right. Exactly. Less people will believe you when you just have a story. You have really no evidence to go with your it's just a he said she said thing. And really because also with my learning challenge, I don't like the word learning disability, So I use challenge instead, is not on the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is a manual that helps people get accommodations. Because it's not on there People think you're making something up, which is not true.    Marissa: And even if the diagnosis is in the DSM, right, people will still kind of think you're making it up because there's a stigma attached to mental health and learning challenges. And I think that's disgusting. That's something that I want to focus on. So thank you for bringing that up. So what coping skills aside from therapy did you use to help you heal from your abuse?    Jennifer: So the other coping skills I used is, obviously I got a dog. That was the whole reason we got Truffles. She's a Dijon, Shishu mix. We got her, actually 10, actually going on 11 years ago. And I never had a dog growing up so this was the first animal we had our pet in the house. And they kind of proposed idea to me, and they were like, do you want to get a pet? I'm like, What kind of question is that, of course, I want to get a pet.    Marissa: Do I have a pulse. Of course, I want a pet.    Jennifer: Yeah. And at first, we were wanting a cat because we travel a lot. But we wanted to add like a dog, we started looking at dogs. And then with Truffles, we got the opposite. Because she does act like a cat, she can jump really high, she loves to lay on our couch cushions like cats do. My dad has a pickup truck. And if it's parked by the curb, she can jump into the passenger seat without any help. So she has springs on her legs. And other coping skills would be I got into long distance running in high school and that was kind of a way for me to just get rid of stress. And sometimes when I was running, I would imagine my cousin's face and just kind of punch at his face to let off anger. That kind of worked. And I was kind of imagining like I was running towards my freedom of being free of all the emotions and just letting them go. And travel, my family did world traveling to at least one new country during the summertime and during non school breaks. That started when I was six years old, and when my brother was 11 years old. And it was kind of an escape for me from the sexual abuse that I experienced. Because when we were away from the family, I was away from my cousin. And the other coping skill I used to use was overeating. I did that in high school and college but I don't do that anymore. I used to use that to absorb emotions. And I got over that habit by realizing what I was doing and I decided to stop doing that. And try to express my emotions more by talking about them to my friends, my close friends, and my family.    Marissa: So I want to go back to one of the things that you said before, when you were talking about your story was that you use journaling, and that journaling really helped you. Journaling also really helped me so would you mind maybe talking about some of the things that you write about when you're journaling?    Jennifer: Sure. So yeah, one of the things I would talk about is, I would often like journal the dreams that I would have, which kind of helped get them out of my mind, because I found if they were still, in my mind, I would keep thinking about them. And so I kind of created a dream journal that I would use. I don't use it anymore, because I found when I was able to lucid dream, As soon as I mastered it, I did it on autopilot, basically. And I didn't need to journal about the dreams anymore.    Marissa: That's awesome. And you learned how to lucid dream from therapy?    Jennifer: Yes, I did. Very first therapist taught me that.    Marissa: That's awesome. That's a great technique. I wish I knew how to teach people how to do that.    Jennifer: Yeah, I wish I did too, because it's really helpful.    Marissa: Awesome. So tell me about what you're doing now. Tell me about your full time job.    Jennifer: So yeah, I work with my mom, who is a minister. She's been a minister for more than 40 years. She was ordained when she was 23. So near my age. And she is a unity minister in unity. It's Christian based, but it's not very religious. It's more spiritual for people who don't know what unity is. And the church is called the Unity Center. If people want to look it up. Basically what I do there is I'm an assistant for her, but I also am the manager of the website and the app that they have and her podcast that I helped with. And that was easier to do because I have my own podcast. The tech stuff I find so easy because I'm a millennial. So that helps. Oh, and I am our COVID janitor for our small in-person services that we do virtually on Sundays, Which is just our musical band, and my mom, and the staff, which is just me and my parents. So I just clean up after us when everybody leaves so that it's sanitized.    Marissa: So having grown up with a parent, who's a minister, do you use the scripture as any way to heal from abuse?    Jennifer: That's a good question. Yes, I definitely do use the faith that we have to help healing with abuse, I tend to meditate and actually, I'm wearing prayer beads. So that helps with healing. And I try to meditate a little bit also and when I exercise, I find that meditative because sometimes I can't sit very still. So sometimes I use more of a moving meditation as a coping skill.    Marissa: Awesome, guided meditation for healing and guided meditation for overcoming abuse are really really common tools. Is there any resource specifically you use for meditation? Are you just what do you do?    Jennifer: Usually, I just use deep breathing, or I can listen to one of the meditations that my mom has come up with, she has a lot of them on YouTube. She has her own YouTube channel for the church, so I can listen to the ones that she has on there.    Marissa: Awesome. Is there any particular part of the Scripture any passage that identifies with you or that, that you feel like has comforted you? You can say no, if you haven’t.    Jennifer: I would say something that I do identify with would be the saying that we have many paths, that many paths meaning many religions that exist in the world. And, you know, there's many gods that those religions have. And people follow all of them differently. I'm paraphrasing it. But that's basically what it means. And I like it because it's very welcoming. And, in Unity, we were very non judgmental of the past religion that you used, you can still practice it when you come to a Unity Church, and you can be who you are.    Marissa: That's beautiful. And I think that non judgment and that complete acceptance is really helpful for people, especially people who have endured abuse. I know that from speaking to people who are devout, devout Christians, that they see a lot of hesitation, with feeling comfortable leaving their abuser because of the way that they read and understand and comprehend the different scripture. So I think that being accepting and loving and knowing that people come from different backgrounds is really important. So thank you and your mom and Unity for doing that. Do you have a piece of advice for survivors of sexual assault with NLD?    Jennifer: Yes, I do. I think the ones who have NLD or other invisible learning challenges like autism or ADHD, or Asperger's, that they should be willing to speak up for themselves.  That if they've been abused sexually, or emotionally or physically in other ways that they should speak up for themselves and be able to say, “Hey, this happened to me, and it wasn't right,” and that they need to advocate for what they need. And they need to basically spread the word to others and be like, no, like the #MeToo movement. This is what I experienced, and I want to help others who are like me,    Marissa: I love that it's forming a community within a community and the sexual assault survivor community, we need to be better at advocating for people with NLD and invisible learning challenges, because they are a part of our community, people from all walks of life who have experienced sexual assault, and we need to be more inclusive and believe survivors. So thank you so much, Jennifer, for that piece of advice and for coming on the show and speaking out for survivors of abuse with invisible learning challenges and NLD because it's so commonplace in that community.    Jennifer: Thank you for having me. And thank you for letting me tell my story and talk about who I am.      If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!   narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, NLD, NVLD, NVLD and abuse, NVLD and assault, incest, how abuse affects families, familial abuse, 

Listing the most important RV features you're looking for is one of the best things any RVer can do when shopping for an RV. Here's the list of our "must-haves!" But understand, this list is ours. Meaning, the RV features you choose for your needs will be different than ours. The most important RV features you identify will depend on what kind of RV you get, how you like to camp, what you do when you are out there, and how you use your RVs. This article comes in response to a specific request from a listener to our RV Podcast and we answered it on Episode 323. Click the Player below to hear the caller's question and an audio recording of our response. It's about 19:25 in on the player. For details, photos, and videos of the features, keep scrolling down. Question: What are Mike and Jen's Most Important RV Features? Here's a transcript of the question, left on our RV Podcast Voicemail number of 586-372-6990: "Hi Mike and Jennifer: Thank you for the valuable information you provide to the RV Community. My husband (six foot two)and I are nearing retirement and planned to purchase our RV in the near future. We've narrowed the search to a 20 to 25ft class B or B+ RV, which we believe allows us to fit in  the most national park smaller camp sites do boondocking. I plan to continue to work part-time remotely. We purchased your RV buying secrets and it has been very informative and answered a lot of questions. TIP: CLICK HERE for more information on our RV Buying Secrets eBook. It will save you money! We are a bit overwhelmed with the features. We should be looking for in our RV. I would like to ask the experience two RV experts -  you and Jennfer - to select the top ten features you can't live without in your class B B+ RV, If you could, please focus on features that you must make in the initial purchase that can't be added later. For example, dedicated bed, ducted air conditioning, safety features on the coach like blind spot and lane-keeping assist, on-demand water heater, six-cubic-foot 3-way fridge freezer, convection oven, deep sink, counter space, tank sizes,  propane versus induction, diesel vs gas ,storage capacity. Thank you again for all that. You do to provide quality and educational content to the RV Community wage. I look forward to hearing the top ten features you guys can't live without. Thank you!" Answer: Some RV Features are Preferences rather than Essentials The caller asked about a lot of things that deal more with preferences rather than must-haves.  For example, she asked about: Gas vs Diesel - We are happy with both. Right now we have a gasoline-powered RV. Our previous RVs are diesel. We can and have been happy with both. Gasoline is a bit easier to find. And, right now, it's cheaper. CLICK HERE for an article we wrote on Gas vs Diesel Induction vs Gas cooktop - We've had and have been happy with both.  Countertop - Most countertops in Class Bs are about the same. The bigger the better, but counter space is not a deal-breaker for us. Sink faucet - A lot of RVs have very cheap plastic faucets. Stay away from them is you can. But, again, this is not a deal-breaker for us. We can easily replace and upgrade if we want. Ducted air conditioning - We had this on our last RV and it was awesome. Our current RV does not have it and we do miss it. This is important, almost a deal-breaker. But not quite. Lane-keeping assist - These come standard on all new coaches Blindspot detection - This is standard on Class B RVs but is not available as a factory option on B+ r Class C RVs So let us share our most important RV features list - and some accompanying photos and videos -  in the hopes that it will give you an idea of what kinds of things should be on your list. Our 10 Most Important RV Features List Dedicated beds – And always-made real bed. In our case. We like the twin beds on our Leisure Travel Vans Wonder RTB.

Jennifer says: "In 2015, after 41 hours of labor, I ended up having a C-section. I was sad that my birth plan hadn't ended the way I wanted it to but so happy to meet my baby boy finally! Fast forward 3.5 years, a miscarriage and secondary infertility- I was yet pregnant again! I found the most VBAC friendly doctor in town, went to a webster certified chiropractor every other week, hired a doula, listened to ALL the VBAC podcast, and I was ready! I had prepared myself and my body for birth. I was 100% confident that I would accomplish a VBAC- so was my entire birth team! Then I found out my doctor was going to be on vacation for 1.5 weeks- I was pretty sure he would not be attending my delivery, which made me so sad since he was so VBAC positive. Labor started just after midnight on my due date. I progressed slow and steady- at the 25 hrs mark, my water broke, I was 8 cm dilated. My husband and I were so excited; my body was doing what it was MADE to do! "We were going to find out the gender of our baby soon! "Within 10 minutes, everything changed. Nurses and doctors rushed in. The baby's heartbeat couldn't be detected. The fear was that my uterus had ruptured, which is a slight risk you take when attempting a VBAC. My team decided that a crash C-section was necessary; it wasn't going to be a "gentle" section. I was going to be put under general anesthesia. My husband would not be able to attend the birth. I was put under terrified thinking about how I would tell my four-year-old that his brother or sister wasn't going to be coming home. Bad things weren't supposed to happen to rainbow babies. "My doctor acted swiftly, and he said he was able to remove my baby within 43 seconds of putting me under... 43 seconds! Thankfully, my uterus hadn't ruptured. The cord was wrapped twice around the baby's neck. When I saw my baby for the first time, I quickly noted the pink hat in her warmer and realized I was now a girl mom, which was so shocking because I thought it was another boy. "Soon after, the tears of joy went back to tears of sadness. Thankfully I had a great support system and reached out to a counselor right away. I knew that I wanted to sort my feelings about my failed VBAC and traumatic birth before those thoughts consumed me. I saw a counselor who specializes in postpartum issues four days after delivering my baby girl. She has helped me work through the fears of almost losing our baby and has been a tremendous asset in keeping my mental health in the right place." We go on to talk about the difference between a Crash Cesarean and an Emergency Cesarean, and why it is important to know the difference. You can find out more about How to Cope When You Don't Get Your VBAC ( https://www.thevbaclink.com/how-to-cope-when-you-dont-get-your-vbac/ ) on our blog. We want to thank this episode's sponsor, Betterhelp Counseling ( https://www.betterhelp.com/vbac/ ) , whose mission is to make professional counseling accessible, affordable, convenient - so anyone who struggles with life’s challenges can get help, anytime, anywhere. Get 10% off your first month by going to betterhelp.com/vbac ( https://betterhelp.com/vbac ). Full transcript Meagan: Hello, hello! You are with the VBAC Link with Meagan and Julie, and our friend Jennifer today. We’re excited to have her sharing her story. She is a CBAC. For anyone who doesn’t know what a CBAC is, it’s Cesarean birth after Cesarean. She was going for a VBAC, was getting so close, and had a turn in a completely different direction. We’re going to be talking with her today about her story and also splitting up the difference between an emergency C-section and a crash C-section. A lot of times, a non-emergent and emergent is jumbled into one. So we’re going to talk about the differences there. We’re really, really excited. Of course, Julie has our review of the week. I’m going to turn the time over to her to read that. Julie: Yeah, I’m really excited about this story. We’ve said it before and we’ll say it again. We are not here to share just the sunshine and butterfly VBAC stories. If that’s what you want, and that’s okay if you want that, then this is probably not going to be one that you would want to listen to. But we encourage you, if you can, to take a minute to ground yourself and try and listen to the harder stories because VBAC, TOLAC, trying a vaginal birth, whatever you want to call it, doesn’t always go as planned. Sometimes a repeat Cesarean is necessary, sometimes it’s wanted, and sometimes it’s an emergency, like a true emergency. Knowing the difference, like Meagan said, is really important between an emergency Cesarean and a crash Cesarean. This is sure to be a really vulnerable and raw story. I am so grateful to Jennifer for being willing to share that story today. Review of the week Before I do that, I’m going to share a review from hellomissbliss, on Apple Podcasts ( https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-vbac-link/id1394742573 ). Doesn’t that take you back to your high school days, Meagan? Miss Bliss? Saved by the bell? Totally there. So hellomissbliss, I’m going to read your review. The title is “Invaluable”. She says, “As soon as I had my C-section, I knew I wanted to VBAC for my future births. I searched other birth podcasts for VBAC stories specifically, and then one day I found The VBAC Link. The information, honesty, support, and evidence-based advice that Julie, Meagan, and their guests provide are invaluable. I make my husband listen and feel so much more empowered and secure in my decision to VBAC. I’m eight weeks pregnant now and I can’t wait to share my VBAC story next year. Thank you so much for this amazing resource.” Now we’ve got to do what we do. We calculate the dates. She was eight weeks pregnant on November 1st, so that’s two months. She probably just had her baby! In June. Hellomissbliss. If you had your VBAC, let us know. We would love to hear your story. Meagan: We are so excited to get started. I do want to give you a fair warning before we turn the time over to Jennifer. If you’ve been following our stories and my Friday updates, you know that I am completely under construction. My entire top floor, which is what’s above me, is under construction. We had to rip up all of our tile and they are prepping the floor to re-lay it right now. So you may hear hammering, you may hear sawing, you may even hear a dog bark, and I’m sorry. Just a fair warning. Julie: There’s always the chance of crazy kids. Meagan has one home and I have three at home. My two-year-old is currently resisting naptime, which should be coming up in about 45 minutes. So it’s just, you get what you get. Sometimes we’re good and sometimes we are a hot mess! Meagan: I just wanted to give that fair warning. If you hear the knocking, I am guilty. It’s me. But Jennifer, we’re so excited to have you here and we can’t wait to dive into your story. We’d love to turn the time over to you. Jennifer’s story Jennifer: Thank y’all so much. I guess I’ll start with my son, with my first C-section. I went into labor at 40 weeks, 5 days. I had a really great pregnancy, no real issues. I labored at home for 21 hours with a doula. We finally went to the hospital and I was only 1 centimeter. That was very discouraging, but I walked around and they ended up keeping me because I was able to get to 3. Long story short, it was about 35 hours that I had been in labor. I was about 8 centimeters and my doctor said my cervix was swollen. She said that we’ll try some Pitocin, but my baby didn’t handle the Pitocin well, so they stopped. I wasn’t really progressing after that. At about the 43-hour mark, she said I had to have a section. There was no talking to her, letting me have any more time or anything like that. She said it was just too swollen. It wouldn’t have happened. We had a C-section and it went very smoothly. My doula was able to be in the room with us. She took some great pictures. After delivery, he was perfect and we had a really good hospital stay. I knew after having him, though, that my first question was, “Okay, can I have a VBAC?” And of course, the doctor at the time was like, “We don’t even need to be talking about this right now. You just had a baby.” Life went on and it was okay. I wasn’t too sad. I knew I would have kind of like a redemption. I’d be able to try for a VBAC in a few years when we decided to have another child and we were hoping for that. A few years later, we were ready to have another baby. I had a miscarriage and then we had about 13 months of infertility. We finally were able to start an oral medicine to help us get pregnant. I got pregnant the first month, and I knew that I needed a VBAC friendly doctor. In my town, we really only have two, and one is much more VBAC friendly than the other, so I chose him. He was great. He said I had a really high chance of delivering the way I wanted to and that he didn’t see anything stopping us at the time. So I hired a doula again. I saw a Webster-certified chiropractor a few times a month-- pretty much throughout my whole pregnancy. It was a very textbook pregnancy. There were no signs that would indicate anything would happen. Then, I found out towards the end of my pregnancy that my doctor was going on vacation. He was going to be gone from when I was 39 weeks to 41 weeks. I knew at that point that my chances of a VBAC-- it was very discouraging knowing he wasn’t going to be there. But my doula calmed me down because the doctor who was going to be on call for him was the other VBAC friendly doctor in our town. That kind of helped me out a little bit. So I knew that I would be delivering with the other doctor. I had met him before, when I had my miscarriage, so I did vaguely know him. I was just going to wait and see what would happen. I knew going in that I wasn’t going to be induced. My doctor was giving me until 42 weeks. We were planning on riding it out until I went into labor naturally. At 40 weeks exactly, at 12:00 am, I went into labor. I guess early labor is what you’d say. My contractions started, but they were coming on really, really strong. They had always said, if you’re getting them less than five minutes apart, come in, because you are a VBAC candidate so we want to monitor you a little bit more. We went into the hospital after only a few hours of contractions and I was only one centimeter. We walked around. We got to about two or three centimeters, and they were like, “We will keep you,” but at that time, it was overnight. At our hospital, we have a hospitalist who sees you until early morning hours when you would see your regular doctor, as long as everything’s going as planned and smoothly. The hospitalist kept us and I continued to progress pretty well. I mean, very slowly. By about the 12-hour mark I think I was 5 or 6 centimeters, but it was still so much faster than with my son in my previous pregnancy. Everything was going well. The doctors I had were a little bit more VBAC tolerant versus okay with it, but they were letting me do what I wanted to do and labor on my own. They kind of just waited it out. I ended up getting an epidural and that helped progress me a little bit. They would turn me every two hours. They were doing minimal checks and everything was going smooth until about 2:00 am. I was about 8 centimeters, they had just checked me. The nurse had just come in to re-dose my epidural and my water broke. My husband and I just laughed. We were so excited because I finally felt like it was happening. I was getting my VBAC. My body was doing what it needed to do. I was on the right path. We knew that at 8 centimeters, if your water breaks, it’s going to progress pretty quickly, so we knew she was coming. About eight to ten minutes later, nurses swarmed into my room. I mean, we probably had about eight to ten in my room. They couldn’t find my baby’s heartbeat. They were trying to get me on all fours to try to figure out if it was just a positional thing or what. And that’s very hard when you’ve had an epidural and can’t move. I had people touching me in all kinds of places trying to turn me over. My doula had actually left. She had taken a little bit of a break because it was in the middle of the night. We had been progressing but it had been slow and she lived right by the hospital. Meagan: Can I just say, that’s a really awesome thing for you to have done? A lot of doulas burn out and they get so exhausted. They’ll be there for a really long time, but when things are moving slow and they’re not as necessary, it’s a really good idea to send your doula home or send her somewhere to go rest. That’s really, really good. Jennifer: For my first one, she was with us the whole time. She was a saint. I mean, she was literally with us for 40 something hours. Meagan: Doulas will power through. Jennifer: Yeah, so my doula this time had a few breaks. She was only a phone call away. I mean, she lived so close that it didn’t matter if she left for a little bit, because no one was expecting to have this baby super fast. So the hospitalist comes in. It was like he had been sleeping all night. He was very slow with his speech. He was like, “There seems to be a problem. We’re not quite sure what.” And I’m like, “Okay, you need to get my baby out if you can’t find the heartbeat.” So, thank God, my stand-in doctor, the on call doctor, has monitors at his house and also lives right near the hospital. And for whatever reason, at 2:00 am on this Saturday morning, he was awake and looking at the monitors. So before the nurses even had a chance to call him and tell him that something was wrong, he was already in his car on the way to the hospital. Meagan: That’s amazing. Jennifer: He barged into my room and it was literally like something out of a movie. He and this other doctor, the hospitalist, were arguing over what to do. From what I remember, the hospitalist was saying, “We’re going to take the baby out right here in the room”, and the on-call doctor was like, “No you’re not, the OR is right down the hall.” They’re arguing. The nurses are unplugging everything from the bed and trying to wheel me out of the room. They were able to find the heartbeat at one point, but it was only 30. So they were thinking that my uterus had ruptured and the doctors had agreed on that. Julie: Yeah, that’s a scary heartbeat. Jennifer: Yeah and then they couldn’t find it after that. They were basically screaming at me that it was a uterine rupture and I was thinking that it was all my fault, that I did this. I could have just had an easy C-section but I chose to do this. Because prior to this happening, earlier in the day, every time the doctors would come in, even the VBAC friendly one, they’d talk about it. “Well this is the risk. Are you sure you don’t want to just have a section? Are you sure you don’t want to have a little bit of Pitocin?” And I’m like, “No.” So I go in thinking that my baby has died. How am I supposed to tell my four year old that we don’t have a baby anymore? It was chaos. There was cursing, not by me, by the doctors and the staff, because I guess things just weren’t falling into place as quickly as they wanted it to. They were finally able to put me under and of course, I don’t know what happened after that. The doctor did tell me that from the time I was put out until my baby was here, it was only 43 seconds. They were able to get her out super quickly. And she was good. She was fine. Her APGARS were the highest they could be. She was okay. Now we know that the cord was wrapped around her neck twice, which was why her heartbeat was so low. Before my water had broken she had all that cushion to bounce off of, but once my water had broken, the cord was too tight. There was nothing for her to float around in, so that’s why it happened right after my water broke. Meagan: That makes sense. I was going to say, it’s like there’s a floodgate opening. They’re in this nice little hot tub, this floodgate opens, and they move. Water comes out, and it could have just gotten too tight. Did they try to change your positions or anything or was it just kinda like, “We’re going”? Jennifer: They did. That’s when they tried to get me on all fours before the doctor had come in the room. But because I had an epidural, it was just too hard to move. They didn’t really get a good response from that. They couldn’t find the baby’s heartbeat. They tried checking me, just to make sure the cord hadn’t prolapsed too, because that could have been one of the issues, they said. But that didn’t happen. She was fine. My doula wasn’t there. My husband, poor thing, he was by himself for that part. Thankfully, I told him as they were wheeling me into the OR, “Call her! Get her to come. You need someone here with you.” Because I didn’t know how he would be either, especially if my baby hadn’t made it. He did say though, that he was able to hear her cry, because he was standing outside the door. It seems like it took forever in the OR, but he said it didn’t because literally, once I was in there, it took five or so minutes for them to put me under and all of that, and he was able to hear her cry. He knew at that point that she was okay. We didn’t know if she was a girl or a boy at that point. We didn’t get our moment of her coming out and being put on my chest and being able to look together, which we were so looking forward to, because that was the incentive for a VBAC too. You know, how exciting it is to have your baby and not even know if it was a girl or a boy, then being able to look. He found out via a picture. The nurse got his phone and took some pictures for him. I found out when I was wheeled into the room. There was a little pink hat on her head, so I knew it was a girl at that point. Meagan: How long did it take for you to come back to and be present again? Jennifer: Honestly, I think it was less than an hour. I was in the recovery room by 3:00. She was born at 2:00, and by 3:00, I was in the recovery room, which is basically the amount of time it took with my son as well. It was like a normal C-section. He was actually able to cut on my old C-section scar, so everything was pretty textbook. Instead, it was a lot faster than a regular C-section. As far as post C-section, everything was textbook. I was in the room about an hour after, nursing her, and she was feeling so good. That part was kind of normal, if you would call it that. Emergency vs. Crash Cesareans Meagan: Good. Yeah and I want to talk about, really, that difference. There are emergency C-sections, then there are true, true emergent, crash C-sections. You had a crash C-section. One of the first indicators of a crash C-section is if they have to knock you out and there’s no time to even talk and discuss or do anything like that. Baby was out in, what did you say, 43 seconds? Jennifer: 43 seconds. Meagan: Yeah, that is a true, crash C-section. A lot of times with crash C-sections, partners are not allowed to be there either because there’s no time and there’s so much happening that they don’t even have time to allow that person in. Fetal heart tones are one of the biggest reasons for a crash C-section. Really low heart decels that cannot be recovered or found. Obviously, it’s a very scary situation and we want to get baby out. So that’s what they did. They rushed and it sounds like they did a very good job rushing. We are so glad that she was okay. Jennifer: Thank you. It was very scary and still it’s very hard to even talk about. I was so grateful-- we have a great perinatal mental health specialist in town that, four days post-delivery, I saw her for the first time. I saw her every two weeks for the first month. I went every month and I still see her. Now we talk more about husband and children issues, but for a long time, we just talked about the birth. Trying to help me to just realize that it was okay to have those feelings. The sadness. Because even in the hospital, talking to my nurses, I was very tearful all the time. But they were just like, “She’s here, she’s okay.” It was true. But I was also kind of mourning the birth that I didn’t get to experience. I am so happy that my little girl was okay, and I would do anything. I would go back and have another crash C-section just to have her healthy, but after preparing and feeling like I am a great candidate for a VBAC, I didn’t really set myself up for what if it doesn’t happen? You know? Julie: Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. Jennifer: I guess that’s one reason why I wanted to share my story too. Because for nine months, even longer than nine months, before I even got pregnant, VBAC was what was going to happen and I had no doubt about that. That was one of the things we’ve worked on a lot in counseling too. It was okay to have those feelings, but it’s okay too that it didn’t go the way I wanted it to or the way I expected it to. Julie: Yeah, I agree. I think it’s so important. That’s one of the reasons why we like to share all of these different types of stories and different birth outcomes, because while uterine rupture is incredibly rare and a catastrophic rupture is even more rare than that, it still happens. When you’re the 1 in 100 or a 1000, it might as well be a 100% chance for you, because that’s what your story is and that’s what’s happened to you. We’re grateful that yours didn’t end up in a uterine rupture. But there’s still that trauma there. The minutes leading up to that 43 seconds probably felt like an eternity, and there’s a whole lot of stuff there to process. Jennifer: It did. When they’re putting you in the OR, you’re having to switch over beds real quick and you can’t move, because they’re trying to get you all set up. You’re literally laying there naked because they’re in a rush. They’re throwing betadine on you and cleaning you up and getting you ready. All of those things, while you’re sitting there and you’re trying to think through it. You’re thinking the worst of what’s going to happen and how you’re going to tell people. How you’re going to tell your little ones at home-- just the worst thoughts. Then my doctor came in the next day and said, “Oh, well, you did have a uterine window.”And I’m like, “Gosh. First of all, do we really need to talk about that? Because that had nothing to do with my delivery at all.” Meagan: A lot of people have uterine windows. Julie: Yeah, Meagan did. Jennifer: I’ve heard you can even have one if you’ve never had a C-section. Meagan: Absolutely. A lot of first time moms probably have them and they would never know if they didn’t have a C-section. Jennifer: He’s basically telling me that, “Look, you’re never going to have a vaginal birth.” I don’t know if we’ll have another child. I think we’re good. But I just had a baby 12 hours ago. You don’t need to be telling me this. Meagan: Right. My provider told me that on the table. During my C-section he told me he was so happy that I didn’t VBAC because I “for sure would have ruptured.” And that I have this window. But what he doesn’t understand is what that did to me for my next birth. It stuck with me. And you’re like, “I just had a baby. Can I just focus on this for this very moment?” Jennifer: Exactly. Because even if we choose to have another one, or are blessed to have another one, I’d probably worry my whole pregnancy that, “Oh gosh, I have a uterine window.” Even if I wasn’t trying for a VBAC, I’d probably be thinking, “Okay, I can rupture any moment.” Some things just don’t need to be said. Julie: I think that providers sometimes don’t realize the impact that their words have on these pregnant people and I think sometimes it comes out of misinformation. They just don’t know. These guys, they’re surgeons. Most obstetricians have done hundreds, thousands of C-sections, perhaps, and have seen a lot of really abnormal things. I can’t imagine that it would be comfortable for someone doing a C-section to see a uterine window and see through the uterus. That probably would be really hard. They would probably be thinking, “Wow. It’s a good thing we’re doing this C-section because this uterus is really thin.” I think it’s more of a defensive mechanism-- a subconscious, primal thing. Seeing that is scary and there’s not a lot of information. There’s no information. There’s no way to tell if a uterine rupture or a uterine window leads to a rupture. There’s just no way. You’d have to know if the uterine window was there before the rupture happened. You can’t do that unless you have a C-section. And so, there’s just no evidence. At all. You just have to assume. When you make assumptions, you get misinformation and misguided providers. It’s really frustrating. I wanted to tell a quick story. I had a client who had a crash Cesarean. There’s so much stuff I want to talk about. It is all in our course. My mind is going on all these different tangents like epidural placement, crash Cesarean, emergency Cesarean, preparing mentally for a different outcome, all of these things. But I want to talk about my experience. I had a client and she had a two-vessel cord. Normally the umbilical cord has three vessels, two going in and one going out. Hers only had one going in and one going out of the cord which, usually, is not a problem. And, usually the cord around the neck is not a problem. Most of the time, you just slip the cord off the neck as the baby comes out and everything’s fine. But sometimes it is a problem, like in your case and, it turns out, in my client’s case. She was going along perfectly in her VBAC and everything was fine. She was pushing for two hours. She just could not get the baby past the pubic bone. She finally decided she wanted an epidural so that she could get some rest. Rest and descend to let the body do some work on its own while she could get some much needed rest. The anesthesiologist came in and she was pushing. She finally got the baby past the pubic bone. The anesthesiologist was there getting ready to do the epidural. By this time, the OBGYN had come in. She was with a midwife and the baby’s heart rate was super tachycardic. 60bpm, 240bpm, 180, 40bpm, 90. It was up, down, up, down, up, down. It was so crazy, all over the place. Baby was under a lot of stress. The OB said, “How long is it going to take you to get an epidural where we could do a forceps delivery?” He’s like, “Well, probably about 20 minutes.” She’s like, “I don’t have 20 minutes. I have 2 minutes.” Once she said that, everything changed. They dosed up her IV. They flattened the bed out. They wheeled her to the OR. It was like, this baby is not doing well. Now we need to get the baby out. There’s no time for an epidural. There’s no time for anything else. We need to get the baby out now. And so, they rushed everybody. It was busy chaos, just like you said. Everybody flooded into the room. Me, the birth photographer, and the birth partner stepped back, got out of the way, and they rushed her away. The baby was born three minutes later, after the obstetrician had said, “I only have two minutes.” It ended up being three minutes, but I’m sure she was just throwing out a short amount of time. It was a good call because the baby was born with an APGAR of 0. Literally, they had to resuscitate him. His two minute APGAR was 5, he was in the NICU for six weeks. There was a lot of crazy stuff. It was not a uterine rupture. It was the two-vessel cord. The cord was wrapped around his neck twice, so once he got past that pubic bone, all of the pressure was super restrictive and he wasn’t getting oxygen. That’s a crash Cesarean. Baby needs to be out in minutes. Minutes, even seconds, matter. That’s why we kind of laugh at the “just in case” epidural, because even if an epidural is dosed and turned on, in order to get it up to a dose where you wouldn’t feel it during surgery would take 20-30 minutes, even if it is already turned on. If it’s not turned on, it could take 40 minutes. If you only have two or three minutes to get baby out, you’re going to be put under whether you have the epidural or not. Jennifer: Exactly. See, I had asked my doctor that at one of my appointments because I was going to try to go without an epidural. I said, “If I go without, what happens if I end up needing a section?” He said, “If you need a section that quickly, it would be a crash section and you’re going to be put under regardless.” He said, “Do not make up your mind on whether or not you want an epidural on the basis of a section or not. If you want it, get it for pain management. Don’t get it because, you think, okay well, what if something happens and I need a section?” Julie: This is where people can get confused. The medical definition of a crash Cesarean is baby has to get out now. We can’t wait. We can’t do anything. We need to knock mom out, cut baby out as soon as possible. That’s a crash Cesarean. Emergency Cesarean is, “Oh gosh, baby is not looking great. You’re only 4 centimeters. Let’s call the OR and get the anesthesiologist in here. Oh, he’s in another surgery, so you’re going to have to wait 30 minutes.” That’s an emergency Cesarean. But when people hear the word emergency, it’s not a good word. It’s not a good thing. Emergency is bad in our minds. An emergency Cesarean really just means, “We don’t think baby is going to come out vaginally and so we need to get it out through a Cesarean.” In that case, if there’s time to wait, then there’s time to get a spinal block, which takes five minutes to take effect. It’s much different than an epidural. It wears off a lot quicker too, which is why it’s not their first go-to, but a spinal block takes effect rather quickly and you can still have your Cesarean in 30-40 minutes with a spinal block. Then, of course, we have planned Cesareans which are scheduled. So you have your scheduled Cesarean, your emergency Cesarean, which is not an emergency. It just means, “Oh, well, we don’t think baby is going to come out vaginally”, or maybe there are problems, like mom has a fever, there’s pre-eclampsia, blood pressure, swollen cervix, etc. Crash Cesarean is, “Alright. This is an emergency. There is a risk to the life of mom or baby. Baby has to come out right now.” That’s where seconds matter. Jennifer: I think it’s important for people to know the difference. Not that any one is worse than the other, but some nurses and doctors don’t even know the difference. Because my regular doctor was on vacation, I had a stand-in doctor every day. They would call it an emergency C-section, often. It was so close and so fresh in my mind that I would correct them every time. “No, it was a crash section.” There’s a difference. The fact that they call it an emergency section over and over, I was like, “Gosh y’all. It wasn’t just an emergency.” It didn’t feel like that, at least to me. Julie: Yeah. Significant difference. Very big difference. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Before we forget, we want to ask you our questions that we try to remember to ask people. Meagan: I actually want to share just one more thing really, really fast. We have a blog post. I believe Julie wrote it. It’s about healing after a birth that didn’t go the way that you wanted it to. Julie: It’s How to Cope When You Don’t Get Your VBAC ( https://www.thevbaclink.com/how-to-cope-when-you-dont-get-your-vbac/ ). That’s what it’s called. I just barely linked to it in the blog I’m writing right now. Meagan: It’s How to Cope When You Don’t Get Your VBAC ( https://www.thevbaclink.com/how-to-cope-when-you-dont-get-your-vbac/ ) and there’s Healing From Trauma After a Difficult Birth Experience ( https://www.thevbaclink.com/how-to-heal-from-birth-trauma/ ). We have two different blogs that may benefit you if you are in this situation as well. So go check it out. It’s at thevbaclink.com/blog ( http://www.thevbaclink.com/blog ). We’ve got oodles and oodles of blogs in addition to that, but those are two specific ones that I thought related to this awesome story. Julie: There’s a search bar on the blog. You can go in and search for whatever you want, really. Enter in the search term you are looking for. On mobile, I think it’s at the bottom sometimes. If you are on a desktop, it’s on the right side. Click on the blog page and it will pop up there for you. Q&A Meagan: Yes, yes, yes. And then we do. We ask questions. We always forget to ask, so I’m excited that Julie remembered. One of them is, what is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish you would have known ahead of time when preparing for birth? Do you remember what you answered? Or do you want to answer something random, too? We have what you answered if you want us to read it. Julie: I don’t remember. I wrote that so long ago because we had to reschedule a few times. I don’t even remember what I put. Meagan: You said that you wish you had prepared yourself for the possibility that you would have had to have a C-section. You were so positive that you would have had a VBAC that you didn’t think of any other complications. I think that is such a big and powerful tip. Our secret lesson, as we are calling it, because there are a lot of times where people write their birth plans and they’re like, “This is how my birth is going to go,” and then birth doesn’t necessarily go that way. It’s actually a lot of trauma for them because they had only prepared for this one way. This is why we believe that hearing CBAC stories and uterine ruptures are really good to hear. They’re really scary to hear when you’re preparing, sometimes, but they’re so beneficial in so many ways. What is your best tip for someone preparing for a VBAC? Jennifer: I think it would be, like I said, to have an open mind. Labor never goes really how you plan, but definitely have a very pro-VBAC team. You know, a doula, your doctor. Go in knowing that it may not go the way you want it to, but it’s okay. There are so many resources after that can help you, like my counselor. My husband was a big support system. Just making sure you have a good support system, whether it’s family or otherwise. Meagan: Definitely. I love it. Jennifer, thank you so much for sharing your story. We love it. We love you and thanks for being with us. Closing Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share ( http://www.thevbaclink.com/share ) and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com ( http://www.thevbaclink.com ). Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Our physical health and learning how to take care of our bodies have played a large role in our growth of the years. In the beginning of our marriage, we dealt with sexual issues and after 4 and a half years living with those problems we finally discovered what we believe was a major contributor to those problems. We began replacing our toxic products with non-toxic products and almost immediately found healing in the area of intimacy. We have had many people over the years ask what kinds of products we use now and so in this episode we share a little of our journey and the products we like to use. Pleas enjoy! PRAYERDear Lord,Thank you for our bodies. We pray we would be good stewards of our bodies and consider all that goes on them and in them. We pray we would be willing to take the time and research the items we use on a daily basis, using things that help us and not hurt us. Lord, we ask that you would give us wisdom as we navigate living a healthy lifestyle. Help us to make good choices and be on the same page in marriage so that we can enjoy the benefits of living toxic-free. Please help us not to be overwhelmed by the process of learning, but rather, help us to be humble and willing to learn so that we can choose what is healthy for us and be advocates of healthy living for the sake of others. We pray living healthy would not become an idol in our lives and would not hinder any of our relationships. May we be people who don't just consume, but who are about our bodies and take care of them.In Jesus’ name, Amen! Some things mention this episode. http://Parentingprayerchallenge.comhttps://shop.marriageaftergod.com/products/the-unveiled-wife-embracing-intimacy-with-god-and-your-husband-by-jennifer-smithhttps://ENG.orghttps://unveiledwife.com/oils/https://norwex.bizDr. Bronner’s - https://amzn.to/2vRCQ91https://www.bendsoap.com/Native Deodorant - https://amzn.to/2VXpWkzBert's Bees - https://amzn.to/3cPJkpNBurt's Bees 100% Natural Moisturizing Lipstick - https://amzn.to/3aKRNs7Ancient Minerals Magnesium Lotion - https://amzn.to/2TQu6YT READ TRANSCRIPT[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helpin' you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're gonna share with you our favorite non-toxic products. Welcome to the Marriage After God Podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as, Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as, Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life-- [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] and power, [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly, after God's will of our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Welcome back everyone to another episode of Marriage After God. We are happy to have ya, and today we are just going to share some, it's kinda like a funner episode, where we're gonna share, not just our non-toxic products, but why we choose those, and part of our story. [Aaron] Yeah, and well, we've had a lot of people over the years, kind of, 'cause we've talked about our journey with health, and we talk about products we use, and you have people often asking, "Well, what do you use?" [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And so-- [Jennifer] A large portion of my first book, "The Unveiled Wife," you know, talked about our journey, you know, figuring some stuff out, and so, we'll probably start there. [Aaron] Yeah, but it'll be fun. We believe that it's good to have a healthy life, I mean, everything we talk about it spiritual, but there's something to be said about, taking care of our bodies, and being careful with what we're putting on, being thoughtful, we even talk about, yeah, we talk about this often in our books, we talk about it in our life. We actually try and live it also, doesn't mean we're perfectly healthy in every aspect, but what's been awesome about it also is, we actually have less stuff, which is cool. So we'll talk about that a little bit too. So first, before we get into that, why don't you give a little update on baby Edith? [Jennifer] Yeah, is everyone as anxious as I am to meet her? I'm-- [Aaron] Some people are probably like, "They're having another baby?" [Jennifer] I know, [Aaron] Yes we are, number five. [Jennifer] Yep, I'm 38 weeks, and just starting to feel like way more ready and prepared, mentally, [Aaron] Some of that pre-labor stuff [Jennifer] Yep, and my body, but also, just in our home, I feel like, we are all kind of getting to that transition point where, I don't know, we're just, we're just ready. [Aaron] So I'll say this, if you don't hear of any more podcasts coming out, after this one, it's because we had the baby. [Jennifer] But, I haven't ever gone that early, so-- [Aaron] Yeah, you-- [Jennifer] I don't know. [Aaron] We're usually like, I should say, you're usually right on the dot. [Jennifer] I will say this, usually nesting kicks in, and I you know, look forward to, just utilizing that energy, that extra energy to clean the house, and get every nook and cranny, and this time I didn't get that way at all. I had to like, really rely on the Lord, and just um-- [Aaron] Well I'll say this, I think you did have the desire to nest, but you didn't have the energy this time. [Jennifer] Yeah, I had the desire for sure. [Aaron] You're like, "I just can't get up off the couch, "I just, I don't feel like I," So, there was all these things that you wanted to do, but it took a lot of my helping, it took a lot of like, extra stuff that you didn't have-- [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] and so, but that's just unique for this time. [Jennifer] But we got some stuff checked off our to-do list this weekend and now I feel ready. So thank you Aaron, thank you for your help with that. Yeah well, I'm sure we'll have a little bit more stuff before the baby comes. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Gettin' the house ready, just gettin' some things off of our plates, so that we can enjoy little baby Edith, [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] when she's here. [Jennifer] What I did do, was I got through Olive's old clothes, and got like a drawer ready for her, and all of her clothes are ready, so, [Aaron] Oh, we also moved all of, 'cause right now we have all of Truitt's clothes, in our bedroom, like right below the changing station, so that we can like change him, and put clothes there, but we moved those. Now he's got his clothes in the boys' room. [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] I'm imagining, we're probably gonna move him into the boys' room soon, right? [Jennifer] Soon, yeah. [Aaron] And then he's gonna be one of the big boys. [Jennifer] Uh? [Aaron] I know [Jennifer] Everyone's growing up too fast. [Aaron] Who in the world? [Jennifer] Elliot feels like he's seven feet tall. Doesn't he feel so big? [Aaron] Yeah, he's gonna be a tall one. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But it's awesome, seeing them grow, we were just talking tonight about if we would have had children earlier, which kinda goes into a little bit into our story, but if we would have started, day one, we'd have a 13 year old. [Jennifer] Yeah, just recognizing, how long we've been married and-- [Aaron] And we probably have 13 kids. So, [Jennifer] At our rate. [Aaron] Yeah at our our rate, yeah. Hey, I just wanted to also bring up something that I've been doing lately, and maybe you can chime in on this, Jennifer, as well, but for the men listening, something I've been trying to do, I know not everyone has our situation. We totally understand that. We get that. But Jennifer and I both, I would say I work the majority of the time, it used to be much more equal, but as we've had more kids, Jennifer's desires, and our desires has changed to, you spending a lot more time homeschooling, [Jennifer] My work just looks different [Aaron] Totally looks different, but the idea is that we're keeping things going, but what I've been doing lately, is letting you have Fridays to yourself, often that's so you can get, you know, the work that you need to get done, done. But sometimes it's just to go. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] To get into the Word. To meet with a lady [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] From the church. To just have time to yourself, or a little bit of both, like you get some work done in the morning, and then you have like a hair appointment, or you have a meeting with a friend, [Jennifer] Yeah, I try and use that time to schedule appointments-- [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] But um, I will say this, I've really enjoyed it, and it's been super beneficial in a lot of ways, but I also recognize that change is coming, with having the baby and post-partum, and all that. So it'll be something that we reevaluate, come very quickly. [Aaron] Right 'cause we go through seasons, and ebbs and flows, and we have to adjust our schedules and our way of living to the situations in life. But, I just wanna encourage the men out there, that even if you're not in a situation, where maybe your wife works with you, or works at home, or maybe, I don't know, like your situations are gonna look differently. The idea is being intentional, to let your wife know that, especially if she doesn't have like, a regular nine-to-five job if she is at home with the kids, if you have a similar situation in that aspect, is giving them time. It may not be every week, maybe it can't be every week, but if it's once a month, if it's every other week, if it's for a couple hours, there's times like, "Hey why don't you, "I got the kids you get out of here--" [Jennifer] And maybe it can't be during the day, but it's at night or, if it can't be during the week, it's you know Saturday morning or something like that. [Aaron] Yeah, there's always going to be a way to just let your wife know that you're thinking about her time, and also, as men who are leading our wives, spiritually, giving them time specifically like, maybe it's at home like, "Hey, why don't you just go lock yourself in the bedroom? "Open up the Bible like, read, journal, "go take a bath, and listen to some worship music." Giving them time to themselves, time to recharge, regenerate. I know some women probably recharge around people, not alone, but, whatever it is, maybe they need to go be with some friends. Just, keeping that in your mind, something we've been practicing, like we said, it's a it's a seasonal thing. So it's not necessarily that it's always going to be this way, but currently Fridays have been your day, and you've been enjoying them, we've been slowing down on that with the baby coming. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Also 'cause, you're having less energy, and you're like, "I just wanna be home." [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But, it's been a cool thing. [Jennifer] I think it's a really good encouragement, and I think it's good for husbands to hear, that when it's even spontaneous, 'cause this was something that we kind of scheduled out, and looked at our situation, and said, "This needs to be happening." But even when it's at random, you know, spontaneous, it's a huge encouragement to the wife's heart to know that the husband is thinking of her like that. You've done that for me plenty of times over the years and so, I love that you're bringing this up. I think it's cool. [Aaron] So hope you're encouraged by that. One more thing before we get into our, our list of our favorite non-toxic products is, we just want to invite you to join the Parenting Prayer Challenge. We created this prayer challenge, it's very similar to the Marriage Prayer Challenge, where you get 30, 30 some-odd emails everyday, reminding you to pray for your children, and giving you a topic to pray for over them. and you can actually sign up for one for a son, or one for a daughter, or you can sign up for both, which is pretty awesome 'cause some of you probably have a son and a daughter, or just sons, or just daughters, or just one or the other, but you can go, you go to parentingprayerchallenge.com, all one word, and you sign up, it's completely free, and we just pray that God blesses you, and your prayer life for your children, because praying for your children is so important. Just like praying for your marriage. Just like praying for your brothers and sisters in Christ. Prayer is so important. God wants to be praying people, and so this is just a fun challenge. It's a way of being a catalyst for your prayer life, for your children. It's parentingprayerchallenge.com, it's completely free. [Jennifer] Okay, so for some of you listening you may have already read "The Unveiled Wife," if anything we talked about today, you know sparks interest and you haven't read that book yet, that was our first book that we came out with, you should go check it out, just because it shares more in depth of our journey, of kind of coming to this place of like, being aware of healthy living, and living a healthy lifestyle. But we're going to kind of summarize it. Just to kick off this episode, just so that you guys can, just get some background into Aaron and Jen. How about that? Okay. [Aaron] Let's see how quick we can make this summary. [Jennifer] Okay so I would say that when we first got married, Aaron, we didn't really, we didn't have a strong foundation of what it look like to live healthy. We grew up on fast food, and and home cook meals, but there was no, [Aaron] We didn't have an awareness of healthy living at all. [Jennifer] Yeah, and so we didn't really care about looking at ingredients on products, or you know reading the labels of things. I would say that you know I used all the all the really good smelling lotions and body washes, and if you didn't have more than three or four in your shower, it was like, "What are you doing?" You know, that type of thing. Fragrant candles, the kind of laundry detergent that you just never think about, you just use it because your parents used, or that's what so-and-so use. I remember using MAC makeup. This one, actually, I didn't really ever talk about this one, but this was one that affected me, in my teens because I was caking on the foundation, but I was using it to cover up acne, [Aaron] Which that made more acne. [Jennifer] Which made more acne. And I was actually allergic to something that was in it, and so I stopped using that, even probably around like 18. But anyways, the point that I'm getting at is that we didn't care about what was inside of these bottles that we were using to put on our skin, you know, the soap that we use, the body wash, the lip balms, the hairspray, we just consumed it. [Aaron] Not internally necessarily. [Aaron] We were consumers. We bought what we liked, we didn't have any consideration of what it was, and I actually think, back then, not very many people did. There was movements of it, but social media wasn't a huge thing back then, so not a lot of people were talking about it. Like news wasn't talking about it, like it was just, you got these products, and it wasn't until there was some sort of, big blow up or news story about something that people were aware of something, but I think with, now looking back, everyone is much more considerate about what's in products, people care about it, but back then we didn't have that experience. No one was telling us to, like, "Oh, do you know what those ingredients are?" Can you even understand what there, like, we just figured, like, "Oh, that's what they put in everything. [Jennifer] Yeah, and then, on the side of like, I'm not gonna go too much into this, but medicine, it was kind of just like, the Benadryl, Tylenol, like, whatever you could get over the counter type stuff. And I wasn't raised with a really big awareness of homeopathy, or how to, you know, use what you have at home. [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] To help through sickness or things like that. Or to even just look at what's the root of the problem here? Of whatever symptoms you have. [Aaron] Or having an understanding of what those, why those symptoms exist. How fevers work, and how, like, why are you coughing, and sneezing, and these kinds of things. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Rather than just, medicating the symptoms, which we're not totally against medication. [Jennifer] No, I'm just saying this is kind of like, where we came from. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So we get married, and I, you know, it was just like a normal thing people talked about, to go on birth control, so I did that. 'Cause I thought that was-- [Aaron] It's what you do. You get married, [Jennifer] What we were supposed to do. [Aaron] birth control, wait. [Jennifer] Yeah, wait. And I only on it for about two to three months, and it like, drastically effected my body, and so that was the first thing that I noticed should go. And so we did that. But that was also in conjunction with trying to find a solution for what we were dealing with in our marriage, which started immediately-- [Aaron] Physically, yeah. [Jennifer] And for those of you who don't know, Aaron and I, we struggled with intimacy right off the bat, like, zero, none. [Aaron] Like sex, specifically we couldn't have sex. It was very painful for you, and we've talked about this in the past, there's a few episodes where we talked about our story, and in your book you talk about it, we talk about it in our new book, "Marriage After God." We talk about it so much because it was such a influential season in our life, and how it brought us to our knees before God. Because, it drew out of us, so much other sins, and frustrations, and bitterness, this situation we were going through. Which is often when we go through things that are hard. They often will draw out those negative things in us. Which is cool, because then God gets to deal with them. But that was, yeah, we didn't know it, you would go to see doctors, and they would say, "You're young." [Jennifer] "You're fine. [Aaron] "You're fine-- [Jennifer] "You're really great." [Aaron] "there's nothing wrong, "this should be working just fine." And then we'd go home and cry, because it's not fine, it doesn't work, nothing's changing, it hurts you. [Jennifer] Yeah, it was like at least if you told me that something was wrong, I can work with that. I can't work with nothing. But moving on, so year four of our marriage, we had a conversation with some friends, we were being really transparent and honest with them about our struggles, and they kind of like, I remember them sitting across from us, just looking super confused, like, "How-- [Aaron] Dumbfounded, or like, "Are you serious?" [Jennifer] "Yeah, is this really happening?" but she goes, the girl, she goes, "The only thing I can think of to help relate your story, "to someone else's that I heard is, "a friend of mine has PCOS, and she changed out all "of her products to be more organic, "and just cleaner, and three months later, "she ended up pregnant." Which people with PCOS, it's a hard thing to do, and they weren't even trying to get pregnant. She was just trying to heal some of her other symptoms. And we quickly disregarded that because we thought, "Well, we're not trying "to get pregnant, we're just trying to start off "with the first thing, which is-- [Aaron] Yeah, how do I have sex? [Jennifer] "sexual intimacy." And we didn't think about it again for about five, six months. And then what happened, Aaron you share. [Aaron] Well, I would just, it got worse of course, 'cause we're like, "There's like no hope, "like this in never gonna change." You know, it started off with a lot of hope, like, "Oh, it'll get better, it'll get, "but it can't possibly keep going the same way." And it just did, and you know, I'm praying through this, God was working in our marriage. There was a, if you read in our book, in both of our books, actually, there's this moment that God gets ahold of my heart, and just totally convicts me of my wrong heart, towards my wife. Not just over the situation about our sex, but about a lot of things. And it brought me to my knees, I repented, and I just said, "Lord, I'm gonna obey you. "I'm gonna walk with you, "and I'm gonna love my wife, "regardless of if I ever get what I think I deserve, "or whatever she owes me, or whatever. "I'm gonna love her. "The way you've called me to." And that was the beginning of a lot of transformations, in our marriage, in our life, and our being. But how, I don't know how, it was like. [Jennifer] It was shortly after-- [Aaron] It was like that weekend, maybe, [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] or the next weekend, or that week, 'cause it was at church that this you know revelation that God gave to me happened. And I'm in the shower, and I'm just praying, 'cause I'm still like, "God, there's gotta be something, "that's gonna fix this." 'Cause even though, I've totally committed my heart to say "I'm gonna love my wife," [Jennifer] You still wanted change-- [Aaron] I still want a change, right? But my heart was totally in a different place now. And I'm just praying, and I'm like. "Lord, what is it? "It's been since before we were married, "like this is, since we've been married, I mean, "and there's gotta be something." And I looked down in the shower actually, and there's a face wash in there, and I just immediately remembered this story about the PCOS, and the girl that got rid of her stuff, and I just asked myself, I was like, "Is it possible that there's something reacting "with my wife's body?" And then I started thinking like, "What has there been, that you've used, "ever since the beginning, of our marriage?" [Jennifer] 'Cause shampoo and conditioner changed out, body wash changed out, a lot things changed, in those four years, but my face wash was the one main thing that I always was consistent with. [Aaron] And so, I said, I just yelled from the shower, I remember like, "What have you been using "since before we were married?" And you were like, "My f-why?" You were like, confused. Anyways, I take the face wash out of the shower, and I hop onto our computer, and I just start researching every ingredient on the thing. And there was like, first of all, like, half the ingredients were, I went on this site, and it talks about the toxicity level, of ingredients, right? You type the ingredient in, and it just tells you what the level is. [Jennifer] Had you ever done anything like that before? [Aaron] Never, never done like that before. Didn't even know it existed, I had to Google, and I'm searching like, how do you figure out, I'm typing these, and then this site shows up. And like half the ingredients in this thing, were-- [Jennifer] It was EWG. [Aaron] Toxic. [Jennifer] EWG.com. [Aaron] EWG.com, I don't even know, is it still a thing? [Jennifer] I think so. [Aaron] Okay. So half the products were toxic at some level. And then there was several of the ingredients that had specific terms that it said it was, that the affect. Specifically the endocrine system in your body. Then I looked up, I was like, "What's the endocrine system? "I'll just start looking it up." I'm getting all technical, and we're not scientists, we're not biologists, we don't know, like, I'm not gonna try and diagnose people, but all I know is the Lord lead me to something. [Jennifer] We were putting pieces together. [Aaron] I started researching, and regardless if it has any effect, the fact that it had all these toxic chemicals, and I'm like, "Maybe she should, regardless, "she probably shouldn't be putting this on her body." and the endocrine system something that's, it's super important to the whole reproductive system. To the normal function of the woman's body. Like secretion of normal hormones, and I was like, "Dang, that sounds like a lot "of like the things that we deal with." And so it-- [Jennifer] The specific thing that you're talking about is parabens. [Aaron] Parabens, yeah. [Jennifer] So there's four, different types of parabens, in this specific face wash. [Aaron] Methyl, propyl, like all these different kinds. [Jennifer] And this was before parabens was a thing, [Aaron] Yeah, like no bottle said paraben-free, back then. [Jennifer] Nobody was talking about it yet, but it soon became a thing, shortly after that. [Aaron] A few years later. [Jennifer] I mean, I remember a few years later, you'd go into like, Ulta, or Sephora, and you'd start seeing, you know, makeup lines that say, paraben free this, paraben free that. [Aaron] Which is interesting because back then, no one cared. I should say no on knew. And then we're like researching this and finding this out, and I don't wanna say, like started move, we actually didn't start anything. Other people are already trying to get this moving, but because of social media things like that, that it exist. Things were a lot slower. I think things are way faster now. But I was just like, "Hey. "I want to be with you, physically." And in this is a big deal because Jennifer has been using this forever, she believed that without it, she was gonna have acne. And be, and feel ugly, or whatever it was, and I remember I was like, "Hey, would you get this up?" [Jennifer] I said no. [Aaron] And she was like "No!" And I'm like, "I'd rather you have acne and us be able "to be together, than you have clean skin, clear skin." [Jennifer] And then I was like, "Well maybe there's something, okay. "I'll just do it 'cause you asked me." [Aaron] So you did, you chose to put it away. And now, I'm sure everyone's thinking like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go use this to get my wife, "or get someone to stop doing something." But, I, my heart was not just to get her to stop using this. I actually had never thought about it until this moment, and I was just like, "Would you be willing to experiment with me?" Like, "Let's just delete this from your life." [Jennifer] Yeah, it was an experiment. And here's the thing you guys, three days later, three days later, I was at work and I remember just feeling different, and I called Aaron and I was like, "I don't get too excited but, I feel different, "and I wanted you to know that my body feels, "it feels like things are changing." And I feel like it was just like two more days after that that we had sex for what feels like the first time. [Aaron] Yeah, in four and a half years. [Jennifer] Like pain free. [Aaron] Pain free. Not just pain free, but like it was enjoyable. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Like it was, like we were like, "Whoa. "Like that's what it's supposed to be like. [Jennifer] There was nothing else that was gonna convince me, that what we stumbled upon, was the thing. [Aaron] Right, and I would also say, we, God lead us a new place, in our hearts toward him. We had been repentant, of things that were going on, and I think that the Lord revealed thing to us, so I would say I definitely think that there is certain things are engaging, or interacting with your body. I mean we know over the years that you're sensitive to certain things, I'm sensitive to certain things. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But I also think that the Lord, was like working in us. So I'm not trying to over-spiritualize it but, I don't wanna take away from what God was doing. [Jennifer] Sure. [Aaron] And he revealed this to us-- [Jennifer] Well and I think, he's the one that revealed this to us, and it was really awesome, and so the next step was, "I'm getting rid of all parabens." Like parabens became this like, [Aaron] We literally threw [Both] Everything, [Jennifer] And I am telling you guys, [Aaron] All of our shampoos, all of her makeup. [Jennifer] It was it! [Aaron] My makeup too. I'm just kiddin'. [Jennifer] It was in everything. It was in so much stuff. People will message me on Instagram, and they're like, "So you know, "You talked about parabens in the "Unveiled Wife," "and what kind of stuff did you have to look at?" It was like, [Aaron] Everything. [Jennifer] I tell 'em, "everything." And so what's funny is that, I look at our shower now from what it used to be, and it's like you had mentioned earlier, [Aaron] There's two things in there. [Jennifer] Yeah, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to do this episode. 'cause we just thought it'd be fun to share with you guys, some of the things that we use now, but this indecent, this thing that happened over something as small as face wash, is what stimulated our hearts to say, "Hey, what were putting in our bodies. "What we're putting on our bodies, "is important because it has an effect on us." [Aaron] And I mean it's definitely not our main focus, I mean everyone that listens to our podcast would know that this is not, we're not like a health and fitness-- [Jennifer] Freaks, [Aaron] Podcast. No, we just know, that there's a holistic view that God has of us. He wants us to love him with our minds, our souls, our bodies. Like so, when we look at the world it's not just, "Oh, we can be unwise over here, "as long as we're wise over here." we look at idea of, what we, we gotta be wise in every aspect. And we seek God on that. So what's wrong with just, caring about what goes on our body and in our body? Not out of a, like, not putting something on my body and not putting something in my body is not making me more holy. It's making me more healthy. [Jennifer] It's taking care of yourself. [Aaron] it's taking care of the body that God's given me. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I will say this, back then, it felt a little bit harder to know what to switch to, because-- [Aaron] Well, there was also less things, I think. [Jennifer] Less cleaner things available and so I just wanted to make that clear, that, you know, anyone who wanted to make a switch today, like if they want to go to their products or-- [Aaron] There's a million products now. [Jennifer] be more healthy in this way, there are so many good products out there and so, it's a lot easier, I would say. But another thing that triggered our healthy lifestyle, was doing the Sugar Busters diet, which we-- [Aaron] This was long time ago. [Jennifer] that was just a couple months, after all of this, and we made the commitment to do it together. We even took a class on it do you remember that? [Aaron] I do. [Jennifer] And they taught us how to read labels-- [Aaron] It was at the church. [Jennifer] Yeah, it was at our church. [Aaron] The church put this like health class on. It was cool. [Jennifer] Yeah so, it taught us how the read labels, and so I remember going grocery shopping with you, and we're looking at the back of like pasta sauce-- [Aaron] Well, everything we bought, had added sugar in it. Every single thing. [Jennifer] But we were like, amazed, we were like, "And this has it too!" [Aaron] I was like, "Bread doesn't have sugar in it." and every loaf of bread, was like, the second ingredient was sugar. And we're like, "Okay, what's going on here?" So anyways, [Jennifer] And then you had to go with a list of what are sugars called? because there's a lot of-- [Aaron] All the different names of sugar, yeah [Jennifer] Different names, for it. But that was another one, when we talk about eating, like that was what stimulated our healthy movement towards eating healthier and just buying things so that we're aware of what we're putting inside of our bodies. It doesn't mean we don't consume sugar, and we don't, you know, we'll have Chick-fil-A, we'll go out and-- [Aaron] No, but that education, the learning about how to read labels. What are ingredients, you know, how they order the ingredients, that's important, I can give a little tip on that. Even though we don't still do Sugar Busters, that month or how many? It was a couple months maybe. [Jennifer] It grew a muscle in us, We now, that's how we shop. When we go grocery shopping, of course there's gonna be stuff that we grab that has added sugars to it, but for the most part, we look at the ingredients in almost everything we buy. Everything, now especially with you, you need to be gluten-free. We look at, we actually buy less things that have wheat in it period, because of that, but it was a good tool in our tool belt, as we talk about in "Marriage After God," to just help us be healthier, help our kids be healthier. They enjoy things, here and there, we just had icecream tonight, so we're not like, sans sugar in our life, we're sans sugar all the time. [Jennifer] I was gonna say, we try and make the best opportunity, or we take every opportunity, when we can, to be healthy, eat healthy, and you know, choose the right thing, but it doesn't mean that we don't get, [Aaron] We also enjoy things. [Jennifer] Yeah, we also enjoy things, so, [Aaron] In moderation. [Jennifer] in moderation. That's good. [Aaron] So, Oh I wanna give that quick tip real quick, 'cause people are probably thinking like, "Well, what about the ingredients?" Just a quick tip on ingredients, the order of ingredients on the box, so like starting from the first, to the second, to the third, the higher up an ingredient is on the box, the more of that ingredient is in the product. So if sugar is in the top three ingredients, that means there's a lot of sugar in that item. So if wheat's the first or water, that's how they order the ingredients, based off of amount of ingredients. [Jennifer] So here's another one, it's really random, but I've been seeing a naturopath for my thyroid issues through this last year, and one of the things she asked me is if we use Weed and Feed. And I didn't even know, 'cause you usually do-- [Aaron] For the lawns? Yeah. [Jennifer] the lawns, yeah. And that was just one instance where she was like, "Well, instead of using that, "why don't you just pick the weeds?" like-- [Aaron] Or leave the weeds. [Jennifer] or leave the weeds. So there's a lots of things in our life that we can look at and evaluate, and say, "Oh, we should probably make change." It doesn't have to happen all at once, but it is something that we should be aware of, to go, "Hey what's happening to this exposure "that we're doing to our bodies. "And how can we maintain a healthy body?' [Aaron] And the Weed and Feed was important because was saying, "You guys walk on "that grass all the time." And like, it goes into your skin, and you're going to be affected by it. Because you're you're working with your thyroid and all of these things, effect that. Which is interesting because, we knew back then that you were probably sensitive to some stuff, and now we know now, you are definitely sensitive to things. Your body's gonna react, maybe differently than someone who, has normal functioning thyroid, or endocrine system or all that. [Jennifer] Right. Okay so, we we're just going to get into kind of a list of our non-toxic products because-- [Aaron] These are literally things that we use, pretty much on a regular basis. [Jennifer] Two reasons, one we just thought it would be fun to share these things, and if you guys you know want to know more, you can reach out to us on Instagram @marriage-- [Aaron] Reach out to Jennifer about the [Jennifer] I was going to say @marriageaftergod. [Aaron] Ah there ya go. [Jennifer] or @unveiledwife We also know that everyone's always looking for, you know, new things or ideas or inspiration so, we just hope that by sharing these, it's an encouragement to you, and give you some information. [Aaron] And I'll also let you guys know that we're not like necessarily sponsored by any of these people. We're just we're literally going to share with you guys the things that we love-- [Jennifer] Now I will say, [Aaron] and use. [Jennifer] that some of these things that I put on the list, and we've been using Young Living Essential Oils for [Aaron] Several years now. [Jennifer] about four or five years now. And we did just recently, just be more open to sharing the business side of things on social media. You may have seen that, maybe not. And so I know you said that we're not sponsored by this, but we,-- [Aaron] But we use it. [Jennifer] but we do use Young Living, and we do believe in what they have to offer, and and have really fallen in love with their products. So, I just wanted to put that out there, just so that people know and we're clear about that. [Aaron] We're not trying to be tricky or anything, we just, these are literally products we love and no one's asked us to share about them. Except for us, wanting to share about them. [Jennifer] Okay so when it comes to cleaning I really love the Thieves Spray, which in the beginning I was using wrong, because I didn't know it could be diluted. I literally would just put the spray cap-- [Aaron] And everything was just like slimy and had like, film all over the [Jennifer] Uh yeah, like a residue. [Aaron] We had residue everywhere. [Jennifer] On the countertops. [Aaron] Oh man, there was no germs I bet. [Jennifer] Ah, probably not. So the Thieves container comes, and then you dilute it, and it lasts a long time. But it smells really good, and I can use it for-- [Aaron] Everything. [Jennifer] I feel like every, one product, I feel like I can use for so much. [Aaron] And what's awesome is like, if you sprayed it on food by accident, I'm not saying you should eat it, but it's not going to be like spraying Lysol on something. Like you spray the table, you spray the the highchair, you spray, you're not worried about this, you know hurting your children. Which is awesome. It's an added benefit to this kind of cleaning product. [Jennifer] Another awesome cleaning product, is by a company called Norwex, it's really awesome you guys, they do these microfiber cloths, but they're like-- [Aaron] Aren't they infused with like silver? [Jennifer] Yeah, they're infused with silver, and they just, I don't know what about it is, but like, when you go to clean the stove, you barely have to even scrape, it's just like, [Aaron] Reusable [Jennifer] It like makes you want to clean. The window rag, you just you put water on it, and just wipe your window down, and they look crystal clear. I bought these mitts for the kids that have, they're just really easy slip-on gloves, but they're good for dusting, [Aaron] So that they can help clean? [Jennifer] So that they can help clean. Oh and our mop, I use the Norwex mop, and it's just really nice. It's good, I like it. I like their stuff. [Aaron] I wouldn't say those are necessarily, healthy products, they're just good products that we love using. [Jennifer] Oh yeah. [Aaron] On that specific one, [Jennifer] On the Norwex side of things. [Aaron] I did wanna go back, and just real quick, the Thieves Spray, we just talked about, I wanted to say it like it what it replaces. Because I think, as we go, we should just remind them, also, what it replaces like, it replaces Lysol spray, it replaces window spray, it replaces like toilet cleaner, it replaces all these things that you'd use to clean your countertops, or your floors, or your tables, or your, it does all of those things. [Jennifer] So for all you minimalists out there, [Aaron] You get one thing, and it does all. [Jennifer] It'll make your cleaning closet, or cupboard very pretty looking. [Aaron] It also smells really nice. [Jennifer] It does, that's true. For laundry, again that they sell Thieves Laundry Detergent and we've really liked that. And I just noticed that, there's a drastic difference when washing towels and washcloths. They're just so much cleaner. [Aaron] And they smell fresher, and they feel nicer. I've been really liking that, as well. This is this one's kind of like for me. So Jennifer, actually, doesn't use the the Thieves Laundry Soap for me, because I'm really sensitive, my skin, if we, if there's any laundry detergent that has any sort of dyes or perfumes or anything, I get like a rash, on my whole body. [Jennifer] If I even think about changing it, he breaks out-- [Aaron] Now, it happens, we've gone, we've stayed at hotels in the past, and I wake up in the morning and I'm just like red, and I go down and I'm like, "What are you guys washing your stuff with?" And they're like "We don't know, why?" And I'm like "I like I need something else." It's like horrible 'cause I'm like sleeping on these blankets and pillows, and so the only thing that we found work, we've actually tried venturing out, into other things, is the Arm & Hammer Sensitive Skin laundry detergent. [Jennifer] But it's fragrance-free, it's clear, [Aaron] Dye free. I'm sure it's got a couple of bad things in it, but literally, it's the only one that I've been able to use and not like break out in a rash on my body. But that comes in a huge bottle and we use it for me so. [Jennifer] Okay so earlier, we mentioned the shower, and just how the bathroom is much [Aaron] less cluttered, [Jennifer] Yeah, less cluttered. So we use dr. Bronner's for just about everything when it comes to washing our bodies. [Aaron] Body wash, shampoo, [Jennifer] I use it in the kids hair, I throw it in their bath and they have different scents, and they come in big bottles [Aaron] I like the rose scented one. [Jennifer] I will say this, the first couple times that we used it, do you remember how it felt like, really different, almost oily, but then once you got out of the shower it was like, [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause it doesn't suds the same way, as like a regular shampoo and also, you have to dilute it. And so you if you use too much, it's like everywhere but it comes off really easy. Doesn't leave any residue, but it's, we love it we use it for everything. Apparently you can use dr. Bronner's for like, laundry soap, [Jennifer] Yep. and dish washing soap [Jennifer] You can use it for a lot of stuff. [Aaron] We use it mainly in the shower, but yeah, you can [Jennifer] I use it for my face wash now, face and body wash, [Aaron] You can use it for everything. We wanna make a note that, the company that that owns dr. Bronner's, they write a bunch of weird stuff on the packaging so we're not necessarily endorsing what is written on the packaging, but we love the product. [Jennifer] When it comes to my like, lotions and things like that, Cetaphil is pretty bland, there's not very much stuff in it. I've used that for years now. I love the orange blossom and ART brand from Young Living when it comes to face moisturizer. The Genesis lotion is also really great, especially because, well, it smells clean and fresh, but it's not super fragrant. That one's good, just an overall lotion, I use that one for the kids. But also, Aaron, [Aaron] Yeah, there's a lotion that I, I hate lotions, like I don't like putting anything in my hands, even though, like right now, my hands are so dry because it's so dry out. But I hate feeling like greasy and the lotion I love the most is from Bend Soap Company, they're actually right here in our hometown. And they make this goat milk lotion, they make goat milk soap, they make a lot of really awesome things. So if you have really sensitive skin, like eczema, things like that, their soaps are amazing for it. That's actually why they started the company, 'cause one of their sons had issues with skin like that. [Jennifer] What I like is their milk bath, it comes in these like shavings, [Aaron] Oh yeah. [Jennifer] And it's just, you toss it in the bath with the kids, and it's just so fun. [Aaron] So just go check out Bend Soap Company, I can't remember the domain, but just Google Bend Soap Company. And their lotion, does not feel greasy. Once it's rubbed in, it's like, it smells nice, it feels great. [Jennifer] You don't have to go wash your hands [Aaron] It feels soft, yeah I don't have to wash my hands afterwards. [Jennifer] For toothpaste we do use Young Living. The Thieves whitening, specifically, is really good for us. And then we use it the kid's ones for the kids. But for the deodorant, this was a big one for me, because I feel like every time I try to use like, a natural deodorant, it just felt weird [Aaron] They don't work. [Jennifer] and didn't work [Jennifer] Yeah, but there's a new company out I'd say a fairly new. They're gaining ground, they're like in Target now, [Aaron] Yeah, they actually have some body washes now, I saw. [Jennifer] Oh really? [Aaron] Yeah, I almost bought a bottle of it. [Jennifer] Oh you should, I'll have to try it. [Aaron] But I like my Bronner's [Jennifer] I know. It's called Native. And they have great scents, it goes on smooth, almost silky like, and it works. Someone asked me, "Do you think it'll work during postpartum?" And I'm like, "That I haven't tried yet, "so we'll know this time around." But I've really really enjoyed Native. [Aaron] Yeah, it doesn't have the heavy metals, or nothin' in it, [Jennifer] Paraben-free [Aaron] So it won't necessarily protect you from perspiring, I should say. It's not an antiperspirant, it's a deodorant. So it protects from the smell, but-- [Jennifer] I don't, really notice-- [Aaron] Yeah, well, it's winter right now, so I don't know, sometimes. [Jennifer] I've been using it for a while though. [Aaron] But I like it a lot. It smells great, it feels good, and deodorant is another one that's really been a, hard one for me because, like, pretty much any deodorant I use, I used to use the Arm & Hammer deodorant, but that has some metals in it, and so I've since switched to Native, but Arm & Hammer and Native are the only ones that don't give me rashes on my arms. And they're painful, you've see them. [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] Like, I they hurt. And I've loved their deodorants. [Jennifer] Another good product for chapstick, is Burt's Bees. [Aaron] Yeah that's good. Especially their vanilla brand, [Aaron] I think a lot of people are like, "yeah, I like that." Burt's Bees, they've been pretty synonymous for chapsticks. [Jennifer] That or coconut oil. Which coconut oil, you guys, you could used for literally everything. [Aaron] Yeah, we should do an episode on that. [Jennifer] Dry skin, lips-- [Aaron] intimacy, oh we're gonna talk about it. [Jennifer] Lubricancy, or, lubricancy? [Aaron] Lubricancy [Jennifer] Whatever that is. [Aaron] It's like, new word. [Jennifer] Okay before we get there, supplements, some things that I've been taking his last year, Nordic Naturals-- [Aaron] You've been, just real quick, you've been getting a lot, into the supplements, just because of your-- [Jennifer] Thyroid. [Aaron] your thyroid. So you've been learning a lot about these. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Because we're, we're trying to avoid going with other stronger, methods, we're trying to do the natural way, [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] and you've been, pretty consistent with this. [Jennifer] Yeah, and just as a testament, after being on the supplements, I have actually, my numbers have gone down, and in my symptoms have pretty much dissipated, but I've also been pregnant the last nine months. [Aaron] Which does change things, yep. [Jennifer] So it does change things. But Nordic Naturals has a really great, strawberry flavored, omega-3. Which I love. And I've been taking-- [Aaron] So it doesn't just taste like fish? It tastes like strawberries? That's good. [Jennifer] Yeah. We've taking D3 a lot. Young Living has a great line of supplements that we use, like the vitamin C, the vitamin B, Multigreens, [Aaron] Yeah, I've been loving their Master Formula. It's like a pack of like five little supplements, and vitamin B, C, D3, all these different ones. I've been taking that, pretty much regularly, every day, I really enjoy that one. [Jennifer] Cool. Okay so for pregnancy and post-partum care, my friend recommended ancient magnesium lotion for restless legs, and it works. [Aaron] Do you get restless legs when you're pregnant? [Jennifer] Yeah, mostly towards the end, [Aaron] I'm being facetious, because I know. [Jennifer] I know, Aaron does the massaging, with the lotion, [Aaron] Yeah [Jennifer] Thank you, Aaron. [Aaron] You've had pretty bad restless legs this time. [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] And the magnesium lotion-- [Jennifer] It's been good. [Aaron] And lavender, on your feet. [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] Has been, really helping you. [Jennifer] Yep, that's true. [Aaron] 'Cause I can tell, 'cause then you fall asleep. [Jennifer] Yeah. I've love it. And then the other thing that helps, has helped me during this pregnancy is the Young Living Deep Relief roller and I don't necessarily put it on, but like I smell it, like especially when I'm nauseous, or anything like that. [Aaron] I personally don't like this one because of how cold it feels. It's like all this-- [Jennifer] When you put it on, yeah. [Aaron] Like the peppermint in it, I just can't. [Jennifer] The cooling effect. [Aaron] But it does work, but it's too cold for me. So you brought up makeup in the beginning, I remember you used to go to the MAC store and you were like, "We have to go to the mall, I need some MAC." And I was like, "Are you serious? "You look beautiful." I've never liked you wearing makeup. You remember this? I was like, "You don't need to wear makeup." But you've used since not used makeup, the MAC makeup and for a long time, you didn't use almost anything, because we couldn't find anything. What do you use now? I'm sure some of the women are like, "What kind of makeup do you use?" [Jennifer] Yeah, so I would say, like my everyday would be, a primer from Urban Decay, which just kind of holds the eyeshadow on, and the eye shadow is also from Urban Decay. And I just like it, they're neutral colors, easy to put on really quick, and the times that I do use foundation, it's a powder foundation from Young Living, it's called Savvy Minerals, it's like a mineral makeup. And it goes on super light and so, [Aaron] But that's rare. [Jennifer] Yeah, it's like on Sundays. [Aaron] I would say you used to use a lot more makeup, and now it's like, you do a little eyeliner, [Jennifer] Yeah, [Aaron] You do a little mascara, [Jennifer] I don't use eyeliner actually. [Aaron] You don't use eyeliner? [Jennifer] No but my mascara, Smashbox has been a really good favorite, paraben-free, and Clinique. [Aaron] Clinique, [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] So no eyeliner, but mascara, okay, and then you use some lipstick sometimes. [Jennifer] Every once in a while. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] The Burt's Bees tinted is really nice. [Aaron] 'cause it's kinda like lipstick, and it's moisturizing [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, so I'm just making a note that you wear way less makeup than you use to [Jennifer] Oh yeah. [Aaron] And I think you're beautiful. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Aaron] Yeah, well, I'm not lying. I've never been a fan of a lot of makeup, and because of this, you've since found contentment in just a very little. [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] Which I think is really awesome. [Jennifer] Okay so when it comes to intimacy, you guys we ditched pretty much, well, we did all lubricants because of-- [Aaron] And we've tried a lot of lubricants 'cause, [Jennifer] We've tried a lot [Aaron] 'cause, things didn't work. [Jennifer] But there were so many of 'em that had parabens in it. [Aaron] All of them. [Jennifer] Every single one, [Jennifer] We didn't even know, [Aaron] Had parabens, yeah. [Jennifer] And then other things on top of that that were just not good for you, so, we stuck to coconut oil for a really long time. [Aaron] So, tip, coconut oil's amazing, for that, specifically, and it's so good for you too. And it feels good. That was a little side note, for the adults in the room. So, I guess what we wanna get at, and I'm sure there's like a ton more things that we-- [Jennifer] I know, [Aaron] we use that are healthy, and we could probably, make a whole other list, but we essentially, wanted to show you that we've simplified, we found the handful of products that we love, and that we know what's in them, and we just, what's really awesome about this is, we it makes shopping easier, it's actually cheaper 'cause we're not buying a bunch of stuff and always experimenting, we're not always saying like "Well, let's try this new thing." We just say "Nope, we love this product. "Let's just go with it, we know it works." And so it makes, we don't think as much about those things. We know that we're minimizing the amount of chemicals we're putting on us, on our kids. And so we can have some peace of mind, and just one less thing that we have to think about, in our home. And we can put more intention into the spiritual growth of our family, into our careers, into our children, into each other, and we're not like worried about these other things. [Jennifer] Yeah, or when you say, "don't put as much "thought into them," I would say initially we do, because we do look at ingredients. We look and we do our research and figure out what we want to use, and we're in agreement when we choose things, but then, once we know what it is, it's kinda like that going back to that spaghetti sauce, once we found the one that didn't have sugar in it, we just stick to that one. [Aaron] And it's great. We love it. [Jennifer] And it makes it easy. It makes it so easy when you know what you are good with. [Aaron] Well, and grocery shopping's hard. I don't know if everyone who's listening is like, "Yeah grocery shopping's hard." Like, for us it's hard, like, so once you, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel every single time, we've kinda, we slowly over time with built, our list of things that we like, "Oh, these are the things-- [Jennifer] Stick to the basics [Aaron] "that we can, "we're just gonna go to those things." And some of them are a little but more expensive. But what's awesome is we don't get as much of everything, like we get those handful of things and I was just at the grocery store the other day, and I was just thinking how awesome it is, that we have these habits on the things that we get. There's just the staples in our home, there's things that we get often. We've already looked at the ingredients. We know we enjoy them. We know that we like them. And it just makes these normal, everyday things so much more enjoyable and easy. They're less stressful like, all around like, this this this way of thinking, is just good for our everyday life. To simplify, to know the things that we like, and we create the good habit. And then that habit is there. So we don't have to reinvent the wheel, every single time we walk to the grocery store. Or every time we are shopping for something for our home, and for our kids. [Jennifer] And we also gotta know when we do choose that organic, clean, non-toxic, or non-GMO, whatever the thing is, we can't be up so obsessive about it that when we go out, or someone offers us, or brings us-- [Aaron] Right. That's a good point. [Jennifer] food during, postpartum, or whatever it is, that we're not nitpicky in a way that promotes-- [Aaron] Is this from that specific brand? [Jennifer] Yeah, let's not be like that. [Aaron] Yeah, we're not, yeah. [Jennifer] And I guess what I'm trying to say is we can't make it in idol. I think it's important to be healthy, and do the best that we can, but there's going to be times that we can't, and that's okay. We can't make living out this way, become an idol in our lives, and especially not become a strife point between husband and wife. I think this is something that you guys, [Aaron] Or friends, [Jennifer] can learn about together. Engage in together, and agree on together. [Aaron] That's a really good point, you know it's good to, in general, be making healthier habits in our life, but the point is not just to be healthier, it's too have a good habits. It's to walk rightly and have wisdom. And so is that thing, if those things, are getting in the way of your relationships with other people, they need to be put on the shelf. Not forever, but like you need to check yourself, and say "Am I letting this thing get in the way of them?" [Jennifer] Yeah, or if you really, truly have a heart to encourage your friends, or family members, or whoever to also, live a healthy lifestyle, be patient with them, because it might take someone else more time, than maybe it took you, or I don't know, I just feel like we need to have compassion for people's learning experience, [Aaron] Yeah, well and also don't let this, one last little warning, don't let this be the message you preach. It's good to encourage people and say "Hey like, you know, why don't you try this? "Why don't you try some more healthy things? "Here's an idea." It's one thing to share, healthy lifestyle, and to encourage someone, but if that if that replaces the message we should be preaching, the message of Christ, if like we have this opportunity and we're instead, we're encouraging someone to be healthier, and then what were thinking is, holiness comes from that. Rather than encouraging someone in Christ, and making the healthy lifestyle thing, that's an ancillary thing in our life that were like, "Oh and I like to live healthy, "and here's some ideas if you're interested." So the main messages is our life represents Christ and we preach him. 'Cause, we could do that sometimes. I got excited about crossfit, and every conversation I had was about crossfit, and I have to check myself and be like, "Hey, is this getting in the way "of the message I should be preaching right now? [Jennifer] That's really good Aaron, and I just, you know, just even thinking about this episode, it's little bit fun and quirky, and you know, not very Christ driven, but yet, I think the encouragement here is that we're aware of what we're putting in and on our bodies because, the scripture to tell us about, our bodies being the Holy Temple. [Aaron] Right, and we're, it's just being wise. Let's be wise with our bodies, and we can't control everything, and we shouldn't try and control everything. But what we can control, with moderation, with wisdom, and with sober mindedness, you know, thinking rightly, I think there's wisdom in that. And walking good, and not just putting junk in our bodies, and on our bodies. [Jennifer] And it has felt really good, I think you would agree with me, in having the conversations from time to time, about our lifestyle choices, about the things that we're doing, the things that were buying, and it's something that we evaluate often. You know, even when we go to the grocery store and so, I would hope that this episode, encourages couples to do that. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So I also wanna let you guys know that if you, especially the wife, if you're interested in following me on Instagram, @unveiledwife, there's a highlight tab called toxic, free, healthy living, and you can get more information there. And also if you're curious about more things, if you want to hear more about, you know, the things that we use just message me. [Aaron] So before we close in prayer, I thought it'd be cool if we let everyone know some of the resources and people that we follow that kinda promote, some healthy living, so what are you share some of those? [Jennifer] So Dashing Dish, she's a good friend of ours and she is-- [Aaron] She's awesome. [Jennifer] really good at just like, meal planning, healthy fitness, [Aaron] Believer, loves the Lord. [Jennifer] everything you can think of, if you want some inspiration she's a great resource. Dr. Mark Hyman H-Y-M-A-N, is a really great resource, he just talks about the holistic living, like that Aaron mentioned. Carrie Vitt, I think it's a Vitt, or Veet. It's C-A-R-R-I-E V-I-T-T and on Instagram, that's where I follow her, and she talks a lot about thyroid health. So I mention that earlier-- [Aaron] Yeah, which is important to you. [Jennifer] Yeah, if you guys are interested in more inspiration for thyroid health, she's a great one to listen to, or watch, or follow. Follow, yeah. [Jennifer] I don't know what it's called. Another one is just.ingredients. She is going to really fun resource, a newer resource that-- [Aaron] Someone shared this with you, yeah. [Jennifer] someone shared with me, and she does like, Costco overhauls, she'll compare products and it's just been really great. [Aaron] A note on her, isn't she the one, that she'll say "If you can't do this, "at least do this?" [Jennifer] Yeah, I think so. [Aaron] And so she shows you like, if you can't afford this, the best product, here's one that's a little bit better than that other product. [Jennifer] I know she shows pictures too, of like, comparing products and things like that. So that's just.ingredients. And then another one I've been falling recently, is Purely Parsons. She's a fun one, just a mom, also nurse, who shares a lot of things, and her highlight reel, I mean, so much about birth, postpartum care, flu season, just home remedies, farming, like, anything that you can think of that you want to know more about, she's just a fun person to follow. And I really appreciated, how much time she takes in explaining things, and sharing resources. And then we had mentioned Sugar Busters, but if you want to know more about the toxi, I can't say that word, [Aaron] Toxicity. of sugar, Dr. Robert Lustig L-U-S-T-I-G [Aaron] Oh yeah, he's the guy [Jennifer] he's the guy. And especially on YouTube. Just research him and check out some of his-- [Aaron] He talks about what sugar does in our bodies. and this is not to be an anti sugar talk, we just when we're aware of how things interact with our body, how God created our bodies, it's pretty interesting 'cause it's not normal things to learn, so just wanna encourage you to check that out. So hey, we just want to thank everyone for being here today. As usual, we like to close in prayer. And so just Jennifer, why don't you pray for us? [Jennifer] Okay. Dear Lord, thank you for our bodies. We pray would be good stewards of our bodies and consider all that goes on them, and in them. We pray we would be willing to take the time and research the items we use on a daily basis. Using things that help us and not hurt us. Lord, we ask that you would give us wisdom as we navigate living a healthy lifestyle. Help us to make good choices, and be on the same page in marriage, so that we can enjoy the benefits of living toxic-free. Please help us to not be overwhelmed by the process of learning, but rather, help us to be humble and willing to learn so that we can choose what is healthy for us, and be advocates of healthy living for the sake of others. We pray living healthy would not become an idol in our lives and would not hinder any of our relationships. May we be people who don't just consume, but people who care about our bodies, and take care of them. In Jesus' name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. We love you all, We thank you for joining us on this episode. We hope it was enjoyable and educational. Go follow @unveiledwife and check out some of her, some more of her things. She posts about them often. And again, we love you, and we look forward to having you next week, possibly as long as we don't have the baby before then, we'll get some episodes up. See you next week. Did you enjoy Today Show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.   

I would imagine that suffering is not a very popular topic amongst most churches today but suffering is a vital and important part of every believer's life and It should not and cannot be a topic that is left out of our Biblical thinking. Suffering comes in many forms and our heart today is to discuss the biblical view of suffering and how it is a powerful mindset and tool in our lives.Download Free Thinghttp://marriageprayerchallenge.com/Topic NOTESI have bee systematically teaching through 1st peter and last week we got to chapter 4:1-Devotional - what are we learning from the WordRomans 8 "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. 3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry."Suffering as a believerCease from sinDepriving my flesh is sufferingBeing in human nature and submitting to God is telling your flesh noChoosing to walk in the SpiritUniversal doctrine sufferingRomans 8 to explain whoever suffers … putting away of flesh is causing our flesh to suffer“want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.We have been freed from the “want to do” God gives us new desires new cravings. As we walk in our new selves it growsDefine:Sensuality - Not just sexualTHE WORLDLY DEFINITION IS PURELY SEXUAL.THE BIBLICAL USE is: unbridled lustLiving for pleasure of every sense - pleasing the 5 senses rather than pleasing GodFROM WIKIPEDIA: Hedonism is a school of thought that argues pleasure and suffering are the only components of well-being. Ethical hedonism is the view that combines hedonism with welfarist ethics, which claim that what we should do depends exclusively on what affects the well-being individuals have. Ethical hedonists would defend either increasing pleasure and reducing suffering for all beings capable of experiencing them, or just reducing suffering in the casePassions - Not just what are you passionate about in lifeBeing controlled by our emotions and serving our emotions vs pleasing God - affected by sensuality in that when we are not feeling good or something not pleasing instead of suffering we let our emotional response dictate our actions - flesh isn't getting what it wants so our choice is to suffer in the flesh and choose to walk in the spirit or suffer in the spirit and walk in flesh they are opposedDrunkenness - Not just being drunk from intoxicationOvertaken by a substance or something out side your bodyProverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise."Ephesians 5:18 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,"Removal of natural function - (Inhibition) ConscienceOrgies - Not just a sexual experienceOverindulgenceGiving into your flesh never satiated never enoughEcclesiastes 1:8 "All things are full of weariness; a man cannot utter it; the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing."HISTORICAL "secret rites used in the worship of Bacchus, Dionysus, and other Greek and Roman deities, celebrated with dancing, drunkenness, and singing."Drinking parties - Not just drinking at a party or hosting one intentionallyIt is inviting others to partake with you in all of the aboveNo one likes to feel the weight of shame or guilt alone so if theyMisery loves companyApproval so you can keep doing itWhy godly fellowship is so importantLawless Idolatry - All of this ends with self-worshipHow I feel what I want what I pursueOpposite of dying to self or taking up crossEach one shows the progress of worshipping self vs the CreatorPrayerDear Lord,Thank you for your word and how it cuts us to the heart. Thank you for teaching us through your word. We pray your word would continue to transform us as we learn it and choose to walk out all that you command us to. We pray we would be people who recognize parts of our hearts that need to change, sin that needs to be repented of, motivations that are not pure, and actions that do not reflect your ways for the purpose of repentance and reconciliation and growth. May your will be done in us and through us. May your light shine brightly through our marriages as we encourage one another to draw closer to you.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, We're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're going to talk about why suffering is good for us. Welcome to the Marriage After God Podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade - [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - Love. - And power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. - [Aaron] Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God Podcast. - [Jennifer] Hi. - [Aaron] We love you guys. I just wanna say, the first episode of this season of this year, I think it got up to number 32 or 33 on the charts in iTunes. So that's all because of our listeners. - [Jennifer] Thank you guys! - [Aaron] Downloading all of these episodes, your guys rock, I just wanna say thank you. - [Jennifer] Hopefully they liked it, you know, thought it was a good episode to kick off the year with. - [Aaron] Yeah, if you liked it, share about the episode, take a screenshot of it, post it on Instagram, Facebook, tag us in it, we love seeing those. - [Jennifer] @MarriageAfterGod. - [Aaron] And we might even share about your post on our Instagram account. - [Jennifer] That'd be awesome. Okay, so Aaron, why don't you just give a little update where you at, how's your week, what's going on? - [Aaron] I think we talked about it last time. I'm starting to get up earlier. For a while I've been getting up around 5:30 and going to the gym, I've been doing that for a couple years now and recently I told you, Jennifer, that I wanted to get up even earlier. - [Jennifer] I was shocked actually. - [Aaron] To give myself an hour in the morning to get in the Word 'cause remarkably if I don't purpose to do it, it doesn't happen. So I figured what's the best way to do that. - [Jennifer] Or your amount of time spent in it wasn't as much. - [Aaron] Yeah, and so I figured the best thing to do would be get up earlier. - [Jennifer] Okay, so now what does your morning routine look like? - [Aaron] So I've been getting up a four, my alarm goes off at four, and then I hit snooze a couple times. I've been getting up around 4:20, 4:30. - [Jennifer] Now, the first time you did it, I was woken up because usually you sneak out of the house pretty quietly. - I turned the light on. - You turned every light on. - [Aaron] I didn't turn every light on. - [Jennifer] It was so bright and then I was up at 4:30. - [Aaron] What the problem was is I forget to set all of my stuff out the night before and I couldn't find anything. - You weren't prepared. - I wasn't prepared. You should always be prepared. If you wanna have a good morning routine. - Good marriage. - Oh. - Oh. - [Aaron] If you wanna have a good morning routine and a good marriage, prepare, put your stuff out, get everything ready that you're gonna be grabbing, so you don't have to look for it and scavenge. - [Jennifer] And I'm just using it, I'm not even mad about it. I went back to bed. - [Aaron] I mean I'm only a few days into it and it hasn't been terrible because I go to the gym now earlier and I'll say this, I really enjoyed going to Starbucks and sitting down, there's no one there, and getting into the Word, that was awesome. And also I started back up doing my intermittent fasting. - [Jennifer] You did that for a while like a year ago. - [Aaron] Yeah, and I only stopped because I was just trying to do something different, get more calories. But I'm going back to it because I feel like I got too much calories. - [Jennifer] Okay. - [Aaron] I really like intermittent fasting. And if you don't know what intermittent fasting is go look it up, it's pretty cool. - [Jennifer] Why don't you just explain real quick briefly what you mean. - [Aaron] Essentially you fast for 16 hours and then you have an eight hour window of eating. Essentially you just miss breakfast. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say most of us fast throughout the night, but this is more intentional, don't have that before-bedtime snack or anything. - [Aaron] Yeah, I'll usually not eat from seven o'clock until 11 or noon the next day. Which is not always easy. - [Jennifer] You also fit in those calories at lunch and dinner 'cause you work out, they know you do CrossFit, you lift heavy weights so you need that energy. - [Aaron] Yeah, I need enough. But it also does help me maintain how much I'm eating and it also makes me think about what I'm eating so I eat better instead of just spreading all those calories out. Anyways I've gotten back into that and kinda liking it. - [Jennifer] Awesome, very cool. Okay you guys, we also wanna encourage you to sign up right now for the Marriage Prayer Challenge if you have not done that yet. It's really awesome. Aaron, how many couples have already joined? - [Aaron] Almost 30,000 couples. There's actually a number counter on the sign up page, and it's a real number counter. I didn't make it up or faked it, it's actually counting people that sign up. - [Jennifer] Okay, so you just go to MarriagePrayerChallenge.com you can sign up for the husband version or the wife version and what do they get? - [Aaron] They're gonna get a email every day around the time that they signed up, giving them a prompt and a reminder to pray for their spouse. - [Jennifer] Awesome, come on you guys, go sign up, it's awesome. - [Aaron] Yeah, so it's MarriagePrayerChallenge.com. Completely free, just give us your email and your name and boom, you'll start getting those emails every day for 30 days. - [Jennifer] So today's topic is on why suffering is good for us. And we're not just talking about physical suffering or sickness or things like that, but we're gonna get into, well we're just gonna get into something that you spoke on recently Aaron that really, really moved me because I love it when you can look at Scripture and see it a different way, I need that help sometimes, someone else coming in and going, "Hey, look at this, this is awesome." So I just wanna dig in. So this is kind of like a devotional style episode. - [Aaron] Yeah, Jennifer and I came up with this idea to do one devotional focused episode every month and so this will be that one. And the topic is something I actually taught on this last Sunday. And you said, "Hey, we should "do an episode on that teaching." So that's what we're gonna do. We'll talk about stuff I brought up from Scripture and then you might have some questions for me, but it's pretty cool, and it's on a very small section of Scripture. - [Jennifer] I'll say this, one reason that I love that you're my husband is that you teach me and I love that. I love that you can look at Scripture and teach me from it and so I'm excited about this episode because I feel like you're gonna have the opportunity to teach others with the same impact that you've had in my life just over this one Scripture. - [Aaron] Well thank you, that's awesome. - [Jennifer] Keep it up, Aaron. - [Aaron] I wanna emphasize that my hope and prayer is that whenever I'm teaching the Word of God that it's not my opinion, not my own flavor of things, but that I'm just trying to clearly teach what the Word of God is saying. So I hope that's what I'm doing right now. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it's good. - [Aaron] So I'll just kick it off that the section of Scripture that we're going to be discussing is mainly from I Peter, chapter four. And it's only the first four verses, which is gonna be the chunk of what we're talking about. And it doesn't sound like a lot of Scripture, but there's actually a lot in here. We're also gonna dig into Romans eight, and that has a little bit more, so there's still a lot of reading. - [Aaron] There's a lot of Scripture to help give context to these few lines of text. So are we gonna start out with you reading I Peter? - Yeah. - Like give 'em just the context of what we're going to be talking about? - [Aaron] So it's actually verses one through three, I'm gonna read it right now, starting at verse one. "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, "arm yourselves with the same way of thinking. "For whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, "so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh, "no longer for human passions, but for the will of God. "For the time that is past suffices for doing "what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, "passions, drunkenness, orgies, "drinking parties, and lawless idolatry." - [Jennifer] Okay, so before we jump into these set of Scriptures, can you just expand a little bit about when it comes to doctrine and universal doctrine? - [Aaron] Yeah, so I start off this teaching actually on Sunday just explaining how when we come up with doctrine, which are the fundamental things that a believer should walk in, teach. These are the things that are core, doctrines in the Word of God. A doctrine, in order for it to be a doctrine, it's gotta be universal. You can't pull something from Scripture and say, "This is doctrine, but it doesn't apply "in Iran, it doesn't apply in Africa, "it doesn't apply in the suburbs." - [Jennifer] Right, or just certain groups of people. Or certain churches. - [Aaron] Right, so if we interpret or pull things from Scripture that isn't universally applied when taught then it's gotta be interpreted through universal doctrine. So that you can't just pull that and say, "Well, that's doctrine." And one example of this would be the prosperity gospel, this idea that God wants every single person to be wealthy, and perfectly healthy, which isn't backed up with Scripture at all. - [Jennifer] We also don't see it in real life. - [Aaron] Yeah, you don't see it played out. There's people all over the world that are not wealthy or healthy, but they love the Lord, God uses them, this is reality on both sides. We see Scripture, like in Ecclesiastes that God gives rain to the evil and the good, evil and the righteous. So there are certain things that he has a certain level of blessing on every person, he gives breath, he gives the sunlight, he gives rain, he gives food, sustenance, regardless of how they are. So the prosperity gospel in the sense of God wants you to prosper financially and with possessions doesn't work universally. But what does work, and this is where I ended off was the universal doctrine of suffering. Without suffering there is no salvation. Christ learned obedience through the things that he suffered. He says that believers will suffer. - [Jennifer] Which kicks us off for this verse that you read, which I don't know if you wanna read it again. - [Aaron] Yeah, it says, "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh," it doesn't say suffered in the spirit, he suffered in the flesh. It says, "Arm yourselves with this same way of thinking." - [Jennifer] Not just some of you, not just you over there in the corner, arm yourself. - [Aaron] Yeah, it tells every believer to arm themselves with this way of thinking of understanding the suffering of Christ. - [Jennifer] And the suffering of the flesh. - [Aaron] And the suffering in the flesh, which we're gonna get into. So when I say doctrine, this idea that suffering is a doctrinal teaching. We cannot subtract it from Scripture, we cannot subtract it from the Christian life. We cannot say, "Yeah, that's good, but only for Christ, "and then he doesn't want his children to suffer." He says, "If I suffered, you will also suffer. "They hated me, they're gonna hate you." These are all things that the Bible teaches and no matter where you go in the world, it doesn't matter where you live it should be something that is taught and understood by the believer this idea, this doctrine of suffering. But there's many types of suffering. And what we wanna talk about right now is what is this talking about. What am I arming myself when realizing Christ suffered? What's the weapon that I'm using? And what it is is an understanding of what suffering is for the believer and why it's so good for us in the varying aspects. 'Cause the first thing we think of probably is suffering, massive pain or loss, which is definitely a form of suffering. But really what suffering is at the base level is our flesh-- - Dying to ourselves, yeah. - Yeah, dying. That's what suffering is. When Jesus says, "Take up your cross and follow me," the cross is the instrument of death of your flesh, your body. You put a body on it and it dies there. And so suffering in the sense that we're gonna talk about is not just this overtly physical suffering. It's telling our flesh no, that's suffering. And as we go through this scripture, we'll see that more and more. But that's what we wanna get the believer, everyone listening to understand is we shouldn't be running from suffering. We shouldn't fear the idea that our flesh is gonna endure some sort of discomfort and pain and that we're not gonna always get what we want and we're gonna have to tell ourselves no and these are all forms of telling our flesh no, it's suffering. The body suffers when it doesn't get what it wants, that's suffering. When you feel pain, it's something that the body doesn't want, which is why you get that pain signal saying, "Hey, this is not good, stop it." - [Jennifer] Right, we really hope that this episode is encouraging to you guys and gives you a fresh perspective of how suffering is good for us, especially in context to our sin nature and the suffering of our flesh. - [Aaron] Which is the exact purpose of this. Of putting away that sin nature and having the spirit of God win and not the flesh. - [Jennifer] Do you wanna jump in to Romans eight? - [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause Romans eight gives us a perfect context for the second part of the scripture that says "Arm yourselves with the same way of thinking." Right, so we realize that Christ suffered in the flesh, we can have the same way of thinking of recognizing the suffering of our flesh is a weapon against something. And it says, "For whoever has suffered "in the flesh has ceased from sin." And this can be taken very literally, which it should be, I think because if we have perfectly suffered the way Christ has we would have perfectly ceased from sin because once we're dead and gone with God there's no more sin in us. But we're in the flesh, so it says, "Whoever suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin," and I think Romans eight perfectly clarifies what this is saying, and it says this in Romans eight, verse one, "There is therefore now no condemnation "for those who are in Christ Jesus." First and foremost believer, believe this. "There is therefore now no condemnation "for those who are in Christ Jesus. "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free "in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." So what has set you free from the law of sin and death? It's Christ and his Spirit, right? It says, "For God has done what the law, "weakened by our flesh, could not do. "By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh "and for sin he condemned sin in the flesh "in order that the righteous requirement of the law "might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to "the flesh, but according to the Spirit." - [Jennifer] I feel like you should reiterate that last part. - [Aaron] What he's saying is the law, which is good, and perfect, and righteous couldn't save any man because man has weak flesh. In our flesh we cannot fulfill the law. But Christ did fulfill the law in his own flesh. Right? And so what it's saying is that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us through the putting away of our flesh through Christ. - [Jennifer] Right, I just love that last part that you just read, it says, "Who walk not according to the flesh, "but according to the Spirit," which is foundational to what we're gonna be teaching from I Peter and it's a choice, they're all choices, right? - [Aaron] These are choices that the believer have because we've been set free, so we have the freedom to now choose righteousness rather than only being obedient to sin. - [Jennifer] Right, and it's through our actions that we walk according not to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. - [Aaron] Right, so this says, "Walk not according to the flesh," so if you take anyone who has suffered in the flesh and say, "Anyone who walks not according to the flesh, "but according to the Spirit ceases from sin," that's kind of what this is saying. This is verse five, "For those who live according "to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, "but those who live according to the Spirit "set their minds on the things of the Spirit." - [Jennifer] Okay, I gotta stop you again because I feel like there's often, I'm sure everybody can relate to this, but when you struggle with sin, and you wrestle with those temptations that come, your mind is on it, right, like when your mind is set on something that your flesh desires and wants to do it doesn't go away until either you do it or you tell it no. - [Aaron] Which is suffering. And this is where we're trying to define this. - [Jennifer] But that whole setting your mind, it starts there. - [Aaron] And it says this, "For to set the mind "on the flesh is death, but to set the mind "on the Spirit is life and peace." - [Jennifer] Raise your hand if you want life and peace. - [Aaron] "For the mind that is set "on the flesh is hostile to God." - [Jennifer] I don't want that. - [Aaron] Hostile, like you're an enemy of God when your mind's on the flesh, "For it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot. "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." So when the Bible tells us that the flesh and the Spirit are opposed to each other, are against each other, that's what this is saying. Saying when you're walking in the flesh you can't please God, you're an enemy. When you walk in the Spirit, you please God. And it's God's Spirit that we walk in. And then it says this, "You," believer, "however "are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, "if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ "does not belong to him. "But if Christ is in you, "although the body is dead because of sin, "the Spirit is life because of righteousness." So remember we said whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin? Let's put it this way, although the body is dead, suffered in the flesh because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. So the Spirit that God's put in us has brought to life our mortal bodies, and listen to this, verse 11, "If the Spirit of him "who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead "will also give life to your mortal bodies "through his Spirit who dwells in you." So I thought this Scripture perfectly illustrated what says right here when it says, "For whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. "So as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh "no longer for human passions, but for the will of God." So when we're gonna get more and more right now into this idea of suffering in the flesh, it's this idea of walking in the Spirit and not the flesh as Romans also says. When you gratify the desires of the flesh you cannot please God, right? But if you walk in the Spirit, you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. Right? - Yeah. - [Aaron] So this is what this is getting to, Peter's talking here, and he's explaining how Christ suffering in the flesh has done this for us. Has given us a way to suffer in our flesh, not in a way of self-salvation because we can't, Christ already did it. His suffering was sufficient. But because of his suffering and from his own words 'cause he left and went home to be with the Father, he sent his helper, the Spirit, to work in us and through us for his will and his work in us. So what we can do now is we can learn to suffer in our flesh via the Holy Spirit. Meaning I don't gratify the desires of my flesh. So when you want a donut, I love donuts. - [Jennifer] I love donuts. - [Aaron] Or you want that new car, or you want your neighbor's thing, coveting, right? Or you want to avoid shame so you lie, these are all fruit of the flesh, these are all things to protect your flesh. I don't like the way that feels, I don't wanna be embarrassed, I don't wanna look shameful, I have pride, I don't want them to think this way about me. It's all the flesh, so suffering is, like here's a form of suffering in the flesh, humbleness. That's painful, humbling yourself. Getting down on your knees and saying, "I am this thing, I did this thing, I said this, "and I want to be forgiven by You." Like humbling yourself, recognizing you're not that great of a person is suffering, is telling your flesh no. I'd rather you suffer and my spirit be lifted up. - [Jennifer] So you started out that little lineup of things that people struggle with was a donut so can you just explain, 'cause eating a donut doesn't have to deal with humility, what does it have to deal with? - [Aaron] Well again, our flesh, and I explained this on Sunday, I was talking about how our brains work. Our brain matter, it's flesh, it's a compilation of cells and there's these chemicals that get released and you have sensors, and receptors, and you have all these things that God gave us to work a certain way, pleasure sensors and pain sensors and all these things, and those are all the flesh. Now what the point is is that you don't just shut 'em all off. It's to put them into submission to the Spirit. So a donut right, having a donut's not sinful. Like, oh, a donut's good. But not having any control and letting your senses control you is not walking in the Spirit, it's walking in the flesh. Like that See Food diet, I see food and I eat it. That's not having any control, the Spirit's not in charge, your conscience isn't in charge, it's, "Oh I see it and I'm gonna put it "in my mouth and eat it." - [Jennifer] So the donut can represent a lot of different things. - [Aaron] Think about pornography. Like you're not controlling your flesh. You're saying, "Flesh, you can have whatever you want." - [Jennifer] That's not suffering. - [Aaron] No, well we suffer in the Spirit. - [Jennifer] And we suffer the consequences. - [Aaron] Yeah, we suffer the consequences, but you're not causing your flesh to suffer, telling your flesh, "No, I don't want you to have it. "I know you want that, I know you crave it, "I know you think that's gonna be good for you, "but the Spirit of God that's in me says no." - [Jennifer] That's good. Okay, so I wanna move on because there's a lot of clarity that comes from this next verse and how you broke it down, which is what impacted me probably the most out of this teaching. And so I'm gonna reread the verse, it's verse three, it says, "For the time that is past suffices "for doing what the Gentiles want to do," and I remember you stopped and said, "Underline that." - Underline want to do. - Want to do. 'Cause our flesh wants to do a lot of things. You just gave those examples. "Living in sensualities, passions, drunkenness, "orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatries. - [Aaron] You've read this a lot, right? - [Jennifer] Yeah, I've read this a lot, but I need to explain because I'm sure people relate to me on this. When you read certain scriptures, it's not that you don't say, "And I know I'm not perfect, "I know that there's sin in my life, "and I'm willing to have open eyes "and for God to reveal that to me, "but when I read this I go, 'well, I'm not really "'struggling with those things, "'I don't really have drinking parties or whatever.'" But you broke it down in a way that makes this verse relatable to all sinners. And so I wanna share that. - [Aaron] And let's remember what the context of this is. Christ's suffering, being armed with this way of thinking, recognizing that our flesh, having our flesh suffer while walking in the Spirit is how we cease from sin, it is how we walk the way God wants us to. And so he gives the contrast, he says, "For the time that has past suffices for doing "what the Gentiles want to do." Now when it says, "Gentiles," it's meaning Godless people. Gentiles were anyone that wasn't a Jewish person. And so what he's pointing out is not specifically Gentiles, he's saying anyone doesn't have God, isn't walking with God. And want to do, saying this is the way they want to be. And then it says, "Living in sensualities, "passions, drunkenness," and what I did is I broke down what these things are. - [Jennifer] And how they're all related. - 'Cause they're specific. - Yeah, they're very specific, and I didn't realize that they were even related. I just thought it was one of those lists, you know? - [Aaron] Again, if you're listening and you have your Bible, the want to do part. Okay, it's want to live in sensuality, and passions, and drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry, right? And like you said, "Well see I don't "struggle with those things." And maybe someone like me that struggled with pornography might point out sensuality and passions like okay, yeah, but I've never done orgies, that's not me. But I wanna highlight that through Christ and his suffering and him giving us of his Holy Spirit we've been freed from the want to do, right? He's changing our desires to be his, he's giving us a hatred of sin because he hates sin. - [Jennifer] And I think in conjunction, the convictions become stronger and so we hear the Holy Spirit loud and clear when we go to do something that we shouldn't be doing, right? - [Aaron] Our prayer and constant desire should be that he's consistently giving us new desires and new cravings. I pray, "Lord, give me a craving for your Word." I don't naturally in my flesh have enough craving for God's Word, let alone reading. Sorry if you relate to that, reading's not something I just crave to do, but there's some people that love reading. But I want God to change those desires so the want to do is an amazing thing that God's freed us from that we're no longer slaves to sin. That's the want to do. - [Jennifer] We're not slaves to our flesh. - [Aaron] We're not slaves to our flesh, God severed that slavery with his Spirit. And now we can actually walk in that Spirit when we focus on that Spirit and we walk in his ways in his Word, that's how this works. So I'm gonna define some of these things. Sensuality, it's not just sexual. Our definition of sensuality is usually very sexual and this absolutely does mean sexual, sensuality. But it's not only sexual. Sexual's one sense. It's one sense being usually this physical pleasure. - [Jennifer] That's what comes to my mind when I think about it. - [Aaron] But sensuality in the biblical use is unbridled lust. Unbridled lust. This idea of lust, I see something, I take it. So think about your five senses, sensual, it's a sensation experience. You're looking for you five senses to be pleasured. I want my eyes to see the most beautiful things. - [Jennifer] Or whatever I want them to see. - [Aaron] Or whatever I want them to see. I want my hands to touch whatever is gonna make my mind feel good. - [Jennifer] I want my mouth to say whatever I feel. - [Aaron] Or taste, right? So you think about your five senses and sensuality is living to please your five senses with whatever pleases your five senses. That's what sensuality is. Often, sexual things encompass all of them, which is why it's usually accompanied with sensuality as a sexual thing because sexual things please pretty much all your senses. But food, music, all of these things, not that those things in themselves are sinful, I want everyone to clearly hear me. It's living in a way that you want your senses pleased. 'Cause that's the opposite of suffering. That's the opposite of suffering. It's living for pleasure in every sense. You want your five senses taken care of, and if anyone of them are hindered or hurt or suffer, you're not happy, and something's wrong, and God must be angry or I'm not close to God. - [Jennifer] And you can see this in the flesh when you feel the conviction of either someone saying something to you about something that you're doing or the Holy Spirit just does it and you feel defensive. You immediately wanna justify that thing that it's not that bad, or that it's this or that it's that and you become, you wanna fight for it. There's gotta be a way that I can still have this in my life. - [Aaron] Yeah, so example of this is you're doing something and you're not recognizing it, and a brother or sister in Christ comes up and says, "Hey, I noticed that you're talking a certain way "or you did this certain thing." And you're like, "Don't judge me, get out of my way." And you immediately feel like you've been judged or wronged or hurt. In reality, you're just getting checked in your spirit and your flesh doesn't like it. - [Jennifer] I also wanna be realistic, most people don't say, "Don't judge me." What they'll do is say, "Oh, okay," and then never talk to that person again. They don't even communicate. - [Aaron] Or say, "Well let's just agree to disagree instead of again, suffering the flesh, humbling yourself and saying, "Maybe there is something I need to grow on." - [Jennifer] Or, "Man, that recognition alone just hurt. "And I'm gonna walk in that for a little bit "and see where God wants to take it." - [Aaron] So I wanna read this, I read this from Wikipedia. It's the definition of hedonism, which by the way, is this idea of pleasure-centered living. Like I'm looking to please all my senses, hedonism. "And it's a school of thought," this is what Wikipedia says, "Hedonism is a school of thought "that argues pleasure and suffering "are the only components of well-being. "Ethical hedonism is the view that combines "hedonism with welfarist ethics, "which claim that what we should do depends exclusively on what effects "the well-being individuals have. "Ethical hedonists would defend "either increasing pleasure or reducing suffering "for all beings capable of experiencing them "or just reducing suffering." So think about that. It's as long as I'm not suffering, I'm happy. Or I wanna be pleasured, and if I can't have pleasure I just don't wanna suffer. Now I want everyone listening to think about that 'cause we have areas in our life, Jennifer and I, we were talking about this that we think this way. Like, "Oh, I'm good with all this as long as "I don't have to go without food for a day." Or "As long as I'm not gonna feel this pain over here "or I'm not gonna have to say no to my flesh in this area." Right, we all have this level of pleasure-centered focus or at least avoidance of suffering. That's what this idea of hedonism is. - [Jennifer] Basically if we're living to pleasure our five senses we can't possibly be pleasing or pleasuring God. - [Aaron] Exactly because he might ask us to do something that doesn't feel good. Right? - Yeah. - [Aaron] And so a litmus test is for us to ask ourselves in those situations when we feel like we're just, it doesn't feel good, something's going on, we're having this emotional, which I'm about to talk about, we can ask ourselves, am I trying to avoid letting my flesh suffer a little bit? Am I trying to avoid saying no to my flesh? - [Jennifer] Okay, so the next one is passions and when I think of the word, passions, I immediately think of things that I'm either passionate about or people who've said-- - [Aaron] It's usually a positive thing, yeah. - [Jennifer] "I'm just a passionate person." But yeah, it's usually a positive thing or maybe it has to do with extracurricular activities or something like that. But why don't you share more about that? - [Aaron] So passions, the definition of passions in the dictionary is essentially uncontrolled or emotional outbursts. It's this like passion outburst of anger, which the Bible says wrath is not good, "The wrath of man does not produce "the righteousness of God." And wrath is an uncontrolled, emotional outburst. Or uncontrollable sadness, or uncontrollable joy or happiness. I'm just trying to get whatever emotions these are, out. And what this idea is is someone who lives purely off their emotions. Like, "Oh, I'm not happy, so things are wrong." But you know what, you know how many stories there are in the Bible of people that, like a lot of David's songs or him not happy. Now they still end joyfully 'cause he knows who his Lord is and his Redeemer, but he's in the muck and the mire. He's in a cave, cold and scared, the emotional, passionate person who lives by their emotions would say, "David was doing something wrong because he wasn't happy," but that's not true. David was right where God had him, he was doing what he could do in God's will. Now I'm not saying emotions are bad. God's given us all of these things. Our senses are good things. Our passions, our emotions are good things, but these are fleshly things, meaning if they're the things that drive us and dictate us then the Spirit of God is not. - [Jennifer] Yeah, I was just gonna say if someone's motivated to maintain a certain emotion or are drawn out of their emotions to act, they can't serve their emotions and serve God. - [Aaron] A good example in Scripture says, "Be angry and do not sin." - [Jennifer] So that's a perfect example of having and experiencing an emotion-- - [Aaron] But not letting it control you. - [Jennifer] But not letting it control you and not acting out of it. - [Aaron] Yeah, you know how hard it is to love someone who is harming you or doing you wrong? But that's what Scripture calls us to do. - Because Christ did it. - Because Christ did it. So, there's things that our emotions will want us to do, wrath, outbursts, laughter, like lots of things. But God wants the Spirit to be in control, not our emotions. And I wanna add to this, often, so based on the sensuality things when our five senses aren't being met with what they want that's when our emotions react. I'm hungry, you know the whole term, "I'm hangry." So you're having a sense, one of your five senses not being taken care of. - [Jennifer] Your emotions heighten. - [Aaron] And so you let your emotions go to get what you want, right? That is not being in self-control. That is not walking by the Spirit, that's walking in the flesh. And so I broke these down all like this to show us that this way of being is not the way the believer should be. That doesn't mean we're not gonna fall into our emotions at times, we're not to be these emotionless robots. What happens is God's given us a way to walk in the Spirit, even amidst the heaviest emotional times. Like sadness and brokenness and fear, and we can walk in the Spirit in those things. - [Jennifer] Yeah, how do you submit those to God and walk righteously amidst feeling those really deep things? - [Aaron] So it all goes back to the, men, this is a universal doctrine that it doesn't matter where you're at, it doesn't matter what you're going through, God has given you the freedom and through the Spirit of God to rise above those things and to appropriate those emotions where they belong. In your sadness to go to God and weep before him. And he says, "I've bottled up every tear." So knowing that we can actually run to the Father, "I'm so angry right now, God, take my anger from me. "Show me how to not be angry with my wife, or my husband." - [Jennifer] My kids. - [Aaron] Or we can just handle it ourselves and let's just take that emotion, and let's just-- - Run with it. - Run with it. And what usually happens, and everyone's thinking about those things when they've let their emotions run, we regret it every time. And we look back and we say, "Well, that wasn't godly, "that was not what Christ would've done." - [Jennifer] Or "Man, I just wish I was different." When we can be, it's just the choices we're making. - [Aaron] So I wanna go on to the next part, which-- - [Jennifer] Feels like an obvious one. - Right, drunkenness. - Drunkenness. Well, it's not just intoxication though. - [Aaron] Well, you're right. - [Jennifer] It is, when you look up the definition, drunkenness, it's being intoxicated by something like alcohol. - [Aaron] Right, and this is clearly talking about no believer should get drunk. - [Jennifer] The Bible talks too much about being sober minded. - [Aaron] And not being drunk specifically. So I do wanna clarify I'm not saying this doesn't mean you can go get drunk. No believer should be getting drunk ever. - [Jennifer] All of these things mean what they are. They also have-- - Deeper spiritual meanings. - Deeper spiritual meanings that we can apply to address our sinful nature. - [Aaron] So let's talk about what drunkenness is. Yes, it's being drunk on alcohol or some sort of drug. Your mind, it's overtaken by something else, which is essentially what drunkenness is. You're allowing a substance, an external force to take over your flesh, that's what drunkenness is. You drink enough alcohol, what happens? The Bible talks about it, you start saying things you would never say out loud, you start acting a way you would never act. - [Jennifer] I always say that or associated it with the word uncontrolled, like that person's uncontrolled right now, but I never considered the aspect of it you actually being controlled by that thing that you just ingested. - [Aaron] Yeah, and I'll give an example, Proverbs 20, verse one says, "Wine is a mocker." So it's saying that the alcohol has an influence to cause you to mock. "Strong drink a brawler." Wants you to fight. All of these things are very fleshly things. "And whoever is led astray by it is not wise." So now nowhere in Scripture does it say you're not allowed to drink. Now some people will take it that way, and we're talking about alcohol so I'm just bringing it up. But 100% absolutely no believer should be getting drunk on anything. But the next thing I'm gonna talk about. And it says, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, "and whoever is led astray," so I've given myself over to this substance, this thing to now do what it wants with me. Like not as if it's a real person, but we have these basic, all these things that are talking about the flesh, we have these basic ways of being in the deep parts of us. - [Jennifer] It's the way he designed us, like he designed us to-- - [Aaron] But he wants it under control. Not let go of. And so the other part I wanna say is in Ephesians five, 18 it says, "Do not get drunk "with wine," again there's a direct command, don't get drunk with wine, "For that is debauchery. "But be filled with the Spirit." So it's saying, don't let your flesh go by letting it be overtaken with wine, alcohol, other substances, but be filled with the Spirit of God. - [Jennifer] This also shows that deeper spiritual meaning of what we're trying to show here when you talk about drunkenness because drunken by the Spirit, that sounds weird, but it's because of that deeper meaning that we're talking about. - [Aaron] And at the base level of what drunkenness is, it's literally the removal of the natural functions that God's put in us, that inhibition in us, that conscience, that ability and restraint that is naturally in us to like, maybe there's something I wanna say, but I'm not gonna say it 'cause that's not appropriate. You're drunk and it just comes out of your mouth. So what you're doing is you're living in the sensuality way you want all your senses met, you're living with your emotions and then you wanna be drunk and you want to release the natural built in barriers that God's given you to protect you from doing or saying-- - [Jennifer] Sinful things. - [Aaron] Yeah, things that don't honor you, don't honor others, don't honor God. And so again, it's like this, I wanna just let it all out, I don't want any control, it's the exact opposite of self-control. It's no control. Which then leads us into the awkward one, orgies. - [Jennifer] Which everybody's thinking sexual experience. - [Aaron] Which again, it means that. - [Jennifer] It is, but it also means more than that. - [Aaron] Right, if you look at orgies at the base idea of what an orgy is, it's overindulgence. So all the things we just talked about, it's doing all of it without restraint. - [Jennifer] Yeah, no barriers, no limitations, as long as you want, as much as you want. - [Aaron] Yeah, oh and that was another good donut. - [Jennifer] That was a good box of donuts. - [Aaron] Those two boxes of donuts were amazing, right, but of course I would feel gross after that. Or alcohol, like alcoholics, they don't restrain themselves. And we're talking about these things that go in the mouth, but think about anything. Anything in your life that you don't want any restraint on. - [Jennifer] So it's overindulgence, and it's giving into your flesh, and you're never satisfied, you're never satiated. - [Aaron] Yeah, when you're in the flesh-- - It's never enough. - The flesh never has enough. You know who says this, Solomon says it in Ecclesiastes one, eight. It says, "All things are full of weariness, "a man cannot utter it. "The eye is not satisfied with seeing, "nor the ear filled with hearing." - [Jennifer] Okay so just that made me think of the porn industry. They get hooked at an early age, but then it's not enough to gratify what their eye is seeing, so it gets worse and worse, deeper and deeper into these things that are just wicked. - [Aaron] And worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. - [Jennifer] And still yet never satisfied. - [Aaron] And this is like the exact opposite of what Christ wants for us. In that verse it says, "The time has past that suffices," means we've done enough of this. Literally he's saying that we have freedom from this unsatisfied, never ending cycle. - [Jennifer] Well, what did Christ say to the woman at the well? - [Aaron] Oh, yeah, so the woman comes to him and she asks for water and he says, "If you would ask me I would have given you water "that you would never thirst again." And she says, "Where's this water, give it to me." - [Jennifer] So it's this contrast of allow your flesh to rule you and never be satisfied or walk in the Spirit and be who you are in Christ with freedom and be completely satisfied. - [Aaron] Right, and Christ, God wants us to be satisfied in him alone. And so when we walk in the flesh, like this idea of orgies it's like I just wanna go somewhere that's gonna give me everything I want and as much of it as I can. And this is not the way of the believer. We are satisfied, completely satisfied in Christ. And so this was a historical note, I saw when looking up this idea of orgies, which I did very carefully by the way. - [Jennifer] Which if you think about that. - [Aaron] Yeah, and historically the word comes from, it's a Greek word, orgia or something like that, but what it was was it was a ritual, secret rites used to worship a Roman god. And the Roman god was the god of grapes and vines and caused men to be crazy. So it's this idea of when we have this way of being, we're like, "I just wanna go and I wanna throw "all my inhibition out, and I wanna drink, "and I wanna eat, and I wanna have fun, "and I want my five senses pleased, "and I wanna just be happy." You're literally worshiping something other than God. That's this idea when you walk in the flesh in this way. So we're gonna go to the next one, there's two more, we're almost done. Drinking parties, and this idea of drinking parties is exactly what it says, these parties that you're just going to get drunk. - [Jennifer] Again, in reading the list in Scripture I skip over 'cause I go, "Well, I'm not doing that." - [Aaron] But the deeper idea is parties meaning multiple, meaning many others, meaning you're inviting others to partake in all of this way of being. That's the way that the people that don't know God, the Bible says, "Don't associate with the wicked "for they can't even seep until they've caused bloodshed "or until they've caught people in their snare." Like these ideas of drawing others into the same way of living fleshly. - [Jennifer] And it can be as simple as you're sitting in a room full of friends and you start gossiping. The invitations can be subtle, but I think that the reason people do it is because they don't want to do it alone, they don't want to be alone in their sin. They're seeking approval so if I can get so and so to do it along with me, then there's this sense of approval that it's okay. Or maybe wrestling with the shame and guilt that comes with sin that you wanna forget about and so you have others join in, I mean there's a lot of different reasons why. - [Aaron] Well, I'll give a great example in my own life, and it's something I'm not proud of, but when I was deep into pornography, and I would meet new men in churches there were pastors or they were like older or wiser and deep down inside either I thought, "There's no way that he's not addicted to pornography "just like me," or I hoped that he was because I didn't want to be the only one. And I thought, "No, every single one "of these guys does too." - It's so broken. - It's so broken. So in my mind, this drinking parties idea, this idea of like, "Oh, we're in this together. "He's a sinner like me and he does the same things as I do, "and I actually hoped he did." - [Jennifer] I think this is a good time to caution us to evaluate ourselves. Are we inviting others to partake in sin that maybe we're not recognizing as sin or we've pushed away that conviction from the Holy Spirit and let's ask God this week, "What areas of my life "have I been inviting people to partake "in with me that aren't righteous?" - [Aaron] Well, it first takes that self-evaluation of like, "God, is there anything "in me that you want out of me?" A good example in the marriage, do you remember when we were going through financial stuff? I would let you spend the way we probably shouldn't spend knowing that it would let me spend the way I wanted to spend. - [Jennifer] Right, 'cause then when you would request something I would have to say yes. - [Aaron] Because I'd be like, "Well, I let you get your thing." And essentially we were just pulling each other down. - [Jennifer] That's really good. So in marriage that's often where the invitation starts. - [Aaron] Keyword, drinking party. Don't invite me, just kidding. - [Jennifer] Don't invite me. - [Aaron] Last thing, lawless idolatry. Everything we just walked through is lawless idolatry and here's why. It's self-worship. - [Jennifer] Yeah, how I feel, what I want-- - [Aaron] Is god. - [Jennifer] Well, it should be God. - [Aaron] No, what I was saying is what you feel and what you want is god, is your god. - [Jennifer] Right, is your god. But what we should be saying is-- - [Aaron] "God, what you want." "God, do you want me to be hungry right now?" And I keep talking about these physical things because this is the idea. - [Jennifer] Well, that's where it starts. - [Aaron] We are to be spiritual people. Jesus told the woman at the well that same story. She's talking about where they worship 'cause she was a Samaritan, he's a Jew and he says, "There's gonna be a day "that you will neither worship there or here, "but my people worship me in spirit and in truth." Not worshiping in passions and sensuality and as Jude says, and that happens even in the church. I'm gonna worship God with my senses, and if I don't sense God and feel God, and my senses aren't being met and pleasured by the Spirit of God then I must be far from God. But you know what, there's many people in the Bible that were in the pit. I think of Paul, and he's singing worship songs, naked and cold in prison. In that moment most people would be like, "I don't feel close to God. "He's not helping me, this doesn't feel good." But Paul knew exactly who his savior was and he knew that what he was dealing with as he says in Scripture, he says, "For I have ascertained that my current suffering "is nothing to be compared with the coming glory." What that means is that this temporary suffering, the little bit of saying no in my flesh, the little bit of pain that I feel, the little bit of depraving of my own desires for the sake of God's will and God's thing that he wants done in my life and in others is so little to be compared with the glory that I'm gonna experience when he returns. - [Jennifer] Which is a hopeful message for us as Christians. We should hear that and be like, "Yes, we're in agreeance here." We should be willing to suffer, and this is why suffering in the flesh is good for us. - [Aaron] Yeah, and a lot of people don't like talking about suffering, but this again is a universal doctrine that Christians should understand and walk in that my flesh does not get to win in my life. - [Jennifer] And when we feel those convictions from the Holy Spirit going day to day, whatever it might be, when you don't tell yourself no, you're putting yourself in a place of worship that you should not be in. You're idolizing yourself, you're saying, "God, I'm more important that you." - [Aaron] My comfort's more important that your will. My pleasure's more important that your Word. And so each one of these is like this progress of worshiping self verses Creator. Worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. My comfort, my pleasures, my senses are much more important than what God's doing in my life. - [Jennifer] A dangerous place to be. - [Aaron] And a good example of this is the reason why many people have a hard time getting out of debt or quitting certain addictions or making life changes is because that's too difficult for my flesh to handle, even though God's like, "But I'm gonna "give you the strength to do it." - [Jennifer] Yeah, I think too, just to shed a little bit more perspective on this idea of suffering, I think sometimes we only go so far to see what we would suffer in the midst of saying no to our flesh. So like it's that little bit of-- - [Aaron] "I tried." - [Jennifer] Yeah, but we see what suffering equals when we say no to our flesh, but we don't look beyond that to see what suffering looks like when we don't say no to our flesh, the consequences, the hurt, the pain, the death, the sin that comes. - [Aaron] The shame. - [Jennifer] Because of the choices that we make. And that's what all of this, of what we're talking about today comes down to choice. You're gonna choose to walk in the Spirit or you're gonna choose to gratify the desires of the flesh. - [Aaron] And you know what believer, you're listening to this? - [Jennifer] You have been set free. - [Aaron] Yeah, you're not a slave to sin and death. We can choose to walk in the Spirit that God's given us. He dwells in us, giving life to our mortal bodies. How amazing is that? So this isn't a go suffer and find your righteousness through just self-depravity and self-abasement. That's not what we're talking about. There are some faiths and some religions that believe that. If you just make yourself suffer enough, you'll be righteous. Now the point is we're already righteous, and the way a righteous person walks with the Spirit of God is we don't gratify the desires of our flesh. And when we do, we recognize it, we repent, and we say, "Thank you, Lord, for forgiving me. "And give me your power to walk better next time "to beat that thing that is in my life "because you have beat it on the cross." - [Jennifer] Amen, so here's the charge for us this week and forever. And it's that first part of that verse that you started us off with there and it's, "Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh," our Christ, our Lord, our Savior suffered in the flesh, "Arm yourself with the same way of thinking." We have to think like him. - [Aaron] This current fleshly body we live in is temporary and the simplest way to put this is Jesus says, "Take up your cross and follow me." The cross is the instrument of the death of our flesh. So let's crawl up on that cross and let's take it with us and let's ask the Holy Spirit, "Lord, teach me. "Teach me how to say no to my flesh "when it craves things that are in opposition to you." Some of us struggle with pride, I just wanna throw that one in there, that's a flesh thing. That's pride, that's the flesh wanting to be elevated and recognized, rather than humbled and God being recognized. So we always end in prayer. Jennifer, why don't you pray for us? - [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for your Word and how it cuts us to the heart. Thank you for teaching us through your Word. We pray your Word would continue to transform us as we learn it and choose to walk out all that you've commanded us to. We pray we would be people who recognize parts of our hearts that need to change, sin that needs to be repented of, motivations that are not pure, and actions that do not reflect your ways for the purpose of repentance and reconciliation and growth may your will be done in us and through us, may your light shine brightly through our marriages as we encourage one another to draw closer to you. In Jesus's name, amen. - [Aaron] Amen, we love you guys, and we thank you for joining us this week. Please consider leaving us a review and a star rating. You just gotta go to the bottom of your podcast app and tap one of those stars and leave a review, we love those, and they help other people find the episodes, find the podcast. And also don't forget to get the free Marriage Prayer Challenge, MarriagePrayerChallenge.com. See you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also if you're interested you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

Find out exactly WHY God brought you and your spouse together! https://marriageaftergod.com Quote From Marriage After God "Dreaming together is an exercise that is important for every marriage after God to participate in. Setting goals and casting a vision for the future strengthens the bond between a husband and wife, stirring up hope for what may come." "Casting a vision together for the future of your marriage is an intimate experience where hope for the future stimulates perseverance for today." Prayer Dear Lord, We pray we would be husbands and wives who dream together. We pray the dreams and the goals that we consider are ones that you put in our hearts. We desire to be used by you to fulfill your purposes. We want to build your kingdom and not our own. May we remember to submit our plans to you always. If there are things that we dream up that need to wait or need to be pushed aside, please help us to be humble. Help us to let go of any pride so that we don’t pursue what we want but instead only what you want. May we experience intimacy in marriage as we intentionally consider all that you have for us. We also pray we would have fun as we do this as a team for your glory! In Jesus’ name, amen! READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God, [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part 13 of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Isaac and Angie Tolpin about dreaming together. Welcome to the marriage After God Podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary, one full of life. [Aaron] Love [Jennifer] And power [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we choose boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] So, we just wanted to take a moment and just ask you guys to leave us a review. That's just one way that other people will be able to find the Marriage After God podcast and spread the good news. So, if you could just take a moment and leave us a review, you could leave a star rating review or comment review and the comments are great too because they always encourage us. So thank you guys, for those of you who have already done that. [Aaron] And the reason we're doing this series is to promote our new book, Marriage After God. And if you go pick up a copy today that would just make us feel so blessed, is the reason we're doing all these interviews, all these episodes. And it's also how you can support us. And I hope that this book blesses you guys and we wrote it for you. [Jennifer] So today we have our good friends Angie and Isaac Tolpin from the Courageous Parenting podcast. Thank you guys for joining us. [Isaac] So great to be here. [Angie] Yeah, we're really excited to support you guys. [Isaac] And we love the book. [Aaron] Wow. [Isaac] Yeah. [Angie] It's awesome. [Aaron] Thank you. [Jennifer] Well, we just wanted to take a minute right here and just have you introduce yourself to everyone listening. So maybe share how long you been married, how many kids you have, and what you guys do. [Isaac] I'll start off with 19 years. It's been an incredible journey. How many kids Angie? [Angie] We have eight. [Isaac] So and we're in ministry courageousparenting.com. [Angie] And courageousmom.com. [Aaron] Awesome, so you guys have been doing ministry for a long time but now you guys are more specifically doing it together online with this podcast with your website. How did we meet? How did you guys meet because we do fellowship with you guys. A lot of the people we've been interviewing, we actually go to church with. So people like why do they know all these people, well? They go to our church but we met before gone just together [Angie] Yes we did. I think it was when, it was just years ago when Jen and I met because of Redeeming Childbirth. And she was pregnant with Olive at the time. [Aaron] And Redeeming Childbirth is a book you wrote about childbirth and redeeming it with a biblical mindset. [Angie] It's kind of a discipleship tool for women because I cover topics that normal pregnancy books don't cover like pain, fear, marriage from a biblical perspective-- [Isaac] Yeah the spiritual side of it. [Angie] Yeah, how to walk through pregnancy, childbirth, postpartum and young motherhood. [Jennifer] Yeah, and we had just moved to Bend you guys had just moved to Bend and so we met up for coffee and that that was the beginning. [Isaac] It's been a great journey. [Angie] It really has. [Aaron] Yeah, it is, we know how small the world is and how close you can become with someone that you didn't know before, and now you're like, I knew I feel like I've known you forever. [Angie] Now, we are like family. [Jennifer] Okay, so after we share this next story, everyone's gonna wanna be you guys as friends. This is how awesome you are. So we just celebrated an anniversary, our 12th anniversary and we didn't have plans and we're gonna go to dinner and Aaron's like, well, let's invite another couple and you guys were right there. We wanted to spend time with you. And so we invited you to go to dinner and-- [Aaron] To our anniversary dinner. [Jennifer] Yeah and it was gonna be awesome but we didn't know you guys on the way over had prepared questions for us to think about in this year. [Aaron] You use to like what's that game the marriage show where you, the Newlyweds Game? You guys, it's kind of that, you guys asked us all these awesome questions. And it made our date night, it was not just a double date where we just chatted, it was like so much fun. [Angie] It was. [Isaac] That means way we answered those questions, [Jennifer] So is that like normal for you guys or a special? [Isaac] That was the first time plus, you know what, the--- [Angie] So, it was just a special. [Isaac] You're special and anniversaries are so special. [Jennifer] That's true and what a great way to celebrate. And we just love that, it's gonna be a standout one for me, I know that. But I had to share that because I think it was super thoughtful. And for those listening, if you're gonna double date on someone else's anniversary, you should do that. It's time we say, we've got a bunch of questions for you. [Jennifer] Okay, so this leads me into the icebreaker question for today. And it came from one of your guys as questions that you asked us. [Aaron] I think it was the first one you asked us. [Jennifer] So here's the question and it's for you guys to answer. If your spouse was a superhero, who would they be? So you're answering this about each other. [Isaac] Why do you kick it off honey? [Angie] I was thinking about this and I think I choose the whole popular Captain America because when I met when Isaac-- [Aaron] His fist pumping right now. You know, that's right. When Issac and I, 20 years ago, when I met him, he was a new believer and had become a new creation like how Steve Rogers turns into the new creation and then he's just this man of vision that wants to do what's right. And he's a leader that people follow. So there's just a lot of qualities, and he doesn't hide behind a mask. So that, there's the boom. [Jennifer] I love that. Real deal. Cool. Transparency. Yeah. [Isaac] Well, that's cool, I think you're Wonder Woman. Because you are pure. Interesting Yes. And your middle name is Crystal, which means what, honey? [Angie] It means brilliantly clear. Or pure. [Isaac] Angie, you're really good at getting the truth out of people. That's true. Right, she's right. [Jennifer] She is drastic, it's true [Isaac] Exactly, that's all truth, she cares about justice. [Angie] That's true. [Aaron] And she cares about truth. And you have an unbelievable ability to do many things at once which everybody says you're not supposed to be able to do. [Angie] You truly are a super mom. [Isaac] A super mom, that's right. [Aaron] Super mom, it's new superhero I don't know if that show would go very far today. Okay, so Jennifer. [Jennifer] Sorry guys. [Aaron] So Jennifer, what would your superhero be for me? [Jennifer] Okay, so just so everyone knows when we were sitting there that night, the whole time, I was thinking about my answer for you. I was sitting there thinking, please don't say I'm Hulk. Please don't say I'm Hulk. Because out of all the superheroes I was just thinking that's the one that's not like attractive, and he's big and he's angry and I don't wanna be Hulk. And what comes flying out of Aaron's mouth, I think Jen would be Hulk. [Aaron] I did say that. [Jennifer] So, anyways-- [Aaron] But for good reasons, not because you're big and green, and angry. Because you have strength that comes out of you when you need it. And you're smart, and you're intelligent. Now, those were the qualities I was trying to get out of Bruce Banner, okay? [Jennifer] Thank you And then, what did I say for you? Oh, I said, Dr. Strange because you have-- [Aaron] A strange and-- [Jennifer] Yeah, you have gifted discernment and you you know things like-- [Aaron] Yeah, weird things, yeah, weird. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's true. [Aaron] There we go, okay, [Jennifer] Fun little question to ask. You guys can ask each other those listening. It's just fun, I like it, I like ice breakers. [Aaron] So why don't we so as we get into the all the questions we're gonna ask the Tolpins, our good friends. Why don't you read the quote from chapter 13 of the Marriage After God and then we'll get into that. [Jennifer] Okay, it says, dreaming together is an exercise that is important for every marriage after God to participate in, setting goal and casting a vision for the future strengthens the bond between a husband and wife stirring up hope for what may come. [Aaron] Awesome, how does that, does that sound right? Because you guys are dreamers. You guys are excellent at planning. It's when we thought about this chapter, we're like, oh, we have to have the Tolpins [Jennifer] They are like professional goal setters. [Aaron] The ones we interview about this because you are planners and goal setters and dreamers. I don't think you know how to have small dreams. You only know like large, big, like-- [Angie] I'd say Isaac definitely is a bigger dreamer than I am and so a lot of times I find myself running as fast as possible to keep up. [Isaac] And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not. That's right. Yeah. [Angie] So we've learned over the years to be able to tell where each other are at and be there to support each other, it's been-- [Isaac] But I think it's vital as a marriage to have vision, we are called to have vision and to look ahead, otherwise, we just get sucked into the circumstances of the day and stuck in the mundane. And it's important to have vision. [Angie] And there isn't a lot of growth when you're just sitting there without vision either. So it's one of the things that I think has made us really enjoy marriage and life is just always looking forward to how we can be growing ad what's next, and looking forward. Isaac always makes this joke when his birthday comes around that he doesn't like looking back. He likes getting older. He doesn't care that he getting older too. Oh, it's the best thing. I like getting older too Oh, Yeah He just loves it. [Aaron] People really don't wanna stay young. I wanna, I can't wait to be gray haired. [Isaac] Yeah, wisdom, you get to see your kids get older, more experiences, you've learned more. [Angie] But one of the things that he said about that that's always stuck with me and challenges me because I'm not naturally like that is that if you're focused so much on the past, then you're not gonna be growing. You're always wanting what you had. And so it's just a challenge to look forward and it's a good challenge. [Jennifer] That's awesome, so, have you guys always been dreamers and goal setters in your marriage like from the very beginning? Or is it something that kind of developed over time? [Isaac] I would say that it was from early on actually. And in business, I've always played a proactive role in helping people have goals and vision, and so forth is really important. And I think, you know, husbands need to apply that to their marriages into their family. And I think it's super important. So we have done it early on. Of course, it's evolved over time. [Angie] Yeah, for sure. And now we involve our kids in it too, which we'll talked about later but-- [Aaron] Yeah, we love that because you're teaching them how to be in the moment, and do what needs to be done but also look ahead and prepare. So you've always been dreamers, you've always been planners but have you said it's evolved. What are some of the ways that it's changed over time, the way you used to plan, dream? [Angie] Well, you know what, Isaac actually, I haven't said this him out loud but I think he's actually the one who really taught me how to set goals. Because I worked for him when we met, that's how we met. And I was an independent contractor and had to set sales goals and different things like that. And he would coach the team through how to do that. And we just kind of took that into our personal life because it was so productive. And we saw good results from it. So we started applying it to life and other areas. [Isaac] There's a principle called the napkin talk in leadership, and I just took that same principle to our date nights. Not every single one, sometimes we just hanging out. We do do that. [Angie] I don't see, but we really absolutely enjoy it. [Isaac] But we really love, so we almost have to force ourselves just to go hang out sometimes, but we-- [Angie] We actually had friends who were like, don't you guys just go and like sit? [Isaac] Yeah, we do, we like that, but the napkin talk, I mean which means you pull out a napkin, you have a pen, you write down some goals, and you write down some initiatives, and there's an incredible power when you actually put thoughts to paper. I don't know what happens but it activates action in your lives and in your marriage. And I think that's really important. [Jennifer] I feel like there's a really good practical tip for people listening if this is something that they really haven't done in their marriage, or maybe they've done it in the past, but haven't done it recently, getting out that napkin, getting out that piece of paper, even after listening to this episode and just go for it. It's the kind of place to start brain dump and just get it out of your mind, out of your heart, and onto the paper. [Isaac] And I think you just think of one or two really good questions, it can be that simple. [Aaron] So, I just wanna, I love those tips, the napkin, what was it called, napkin talk? Where you just write down on a napkin and that's awesome. We do something similar. We don't ever do a napkin but we bring a pad or we bring a pad or we do it on our phone, or send ourselves an email. [Jennifer] Actually I have used napkins before. [Aaron] Yeah, I think you have, that's it or worse we get some receipt paper please. [Isaac] Yeah, exactly, whatever. [Isaac] Yeah, whatever you can. But I just wanna real quick highlight why we've been talking about dreaming. And we're talking about this idea of planning together because in this part of the book, we're encouraging marriages to take all of the things we've talked about up to this point, and actually start getting it out of their hearts, and minds and onto paper. Because once we do that, once we have it out on paper. You said, the power of goal setting, there's every single productivity book or success book has some form of write it down, put a checklist, have a to do list. And there's a reason for that is because once it's written down, it's a real thing. It becomes a, oh, that's actually visible and now I'm not the only one who is thinking about it. [Isaac] So true. [Aaron] Other people can see it, my kids can see, my wife can see it and now I can pray about it. And so I just, I just wanna highlight, that's why we're having this conversation is not just to like, let's have big dreams and shoot for the moon. And, but there's a there's a mission involved in what we're doing. So, that we're proactively use that word proactive, we're proactively chasing after God's will for our life and sometimes and oftentimes it takes dumping all of the things that are in our hearts and minds as a couple onto paper into notes and be like, okay, what does this look like in our life? How are we gonna get to from A to B? What is B, so I just wanted to bring that up and then, so that we all know, everyone that's listening is like, oh, like, that's why we dream, like that's why we plan. [Isaac] I think we're wired for progress too. And so when you're able to look at the end of the year, how you've made progress together, and the things you've accomplished together, it's so rewarding. [Angie] And do you have dreams when you first get married. You dream about your life together. And you may think about specific goals, even then, from when we were just engaged to newlyweds. And it's exciting to keep that going. I think it helps you tonight and become stagnant, like you're saying or becoming a marriage is just surviving but instead, you're thriving. And I think that the first few years that we were married too, the napkin talks, a lot of times were Isaac asking specifically how I was doing in my relationship with God, how I was doing in my relationships with my kids, and that this would become an opportunity for us to communicate about what was going on in their hearts and what I was seeing during the day so that he would know how he could back me up when he was at home or what their needs were, so that we could be a better team when he was off work and on the weekends because he worked during the day, [Isaac] It's so crucial because as husbands, if we want our wives' support, then we better be proactively supporting our wives. What things in our career do we want support with? Well, you're not gonna get it unless you've been proactively all along the way, supporting your wife and the things that really matter. [Angie] And I remember there was a time too, someone asked us years ago because Isaac would shoot for huge goals business wise, and he would hit them. And one of the wives of another manager came up to me and just said, wow, you must have to work so hard at home. Is he working all the time? And I said, well, he does work hard, butt we work together and it's a team, we're a team. [Aaron] It's a good little insight. [Angie] Yeah and in, she just kind of looked at me like, oh, and and I remember like we would go out and if Isaac had a goal for work, like if I was gonna shoot for a different amount of sales, let's say you're in sales, he'd always run that by me first at one of our visionary date nights. And he would say, hey, this is what it might end up costing us like, this much extra time, are you in? Are we, do we wanna do it? So it wasn't just him doing it? [Isaac] And then you being pulled along. [Angie] Right and so even though he was running a business and I was a stay at home mom, I felt so cherished and involved in his business because he was involving me in the dreaming process, and just sharing with me even those goals. And then years went by of us doing that. And one night, he just out of nowhere said Do you have dreams that we're not pursuing together? And then that's where Redeeming Childbirth came in and like, oh, in him encouraging me to have a blog. And so it's important that you both are drawing that out of each other. [Aaron] Well, and I think I saw in a second one ask you about the visionary date night thing. We'll get into that but you said that he would invite you in, involve you. I feel like you probably felt that way but it's even more than that. It sounds like you were a linchpin in the process where it not just being involved in like, hey, what do you think about this idea. It's more of a this goal won't work unless we're on the same page. [Isaac] It's crucial, it's crucial, because if the plan doesn't go well, and you didn't from the beginning decide to do it together, guess who your detractors going to be later? The wife, you can't accomplish big things by yourself. And if you set out to do things then they don't go well, it could harm the marriage, if you didn't set out to do it together. [Aaron] Well, and we talked about this a lot in the book is like, it starts without unity anyway. Like, if you're only doing it for if you're chasing after something and she's chasing after something, what are you doing? You're pulling against each other, and you never gonna get anywhere. [Angie] You won't be effective. [Isaac] No, and so you coming to your wife and it's not a permission based thing, it's purely a, we're one. This will only work if we're on the same page so that you show me where it's not gonna work, and let's figure out how to make it work. And not just in business but like, I love that you guys talked about children. And it actually in this chapter, we talk about the different categories that we could be submitting to the Lord and dreaming in. So when it comes to like children and raising our children and discipleship like, hey, what are some of the visions that we have? And it could be as simple-- For our kids. [Angie] as what character qualities do we see already being cultivated in this child? What is God drawing out of them? And how can we encourage that more? What are some of the flaws that maybe we need to work on? And so there's also those kinds of visions and goals with each child to those were always at the forefront of our family, visionary, and time for sure. [Isaac] Well, we would even write down each child's name and go, what does each child need? [Angie] And there were times to where we would evaluate like do we need to have special one on one time with each child like on a regular basis, like for a period of time to deal with a specific topic? So there are so many ways you could go about this. [Jennifer] That's so cool, and when I think about this chapter of the book and the reason why we wanted to encourage couples to do this very thing of dreaming together and talking about these kinds of things is because it is a really intimate experience because you have to communicate, you have to share your hearts with one another. And that's what I'm hearing. [Aaron] You are really transparent. Jennifer] You have to be transparent, you have to have a insights, you have to know your children, you have to know each other. And I just see how unity is built. Trust is built, love is cultivated when a husband and wife intentionally pursue moments like this together. [Aaron] Absolutely, so there's a quote in the book, it says this. Casting a vision together for the future of your marriage is an intimate experience where hope for the future stimulates perseverance for today. How has this been true in your guys' life? [Angie] Oh, I feel like that quote totally suits for the season that we just been in. [Isaac] We've gone through ups and some really tough times too, ups and downs, for sure. And it has been so crucial to have vision and a godly perspective and putting God at the center of our marriage as we go through the challenging times. [Angie] And really that our goals are centered on Him too. I think that that's the thing that keeps you going. He's the hope and when you know that what you're pursuing is for Him and it's not for gain in anything else then it gives you the hope to keep going every day. And you don't focus so much on the circumstances that you might be in. [Isaac] And we're called to not be of this world, be in the world but not of the world. And that goes for marriage. And so our marriage is a witness to the world. And what a great testimony during the hard times when we just grow closer together. [Jennifer] Amen, love that. [Aaron] Yeah, so you were just mentioning about like, they're like for God and human being in the center and Christ being our hope. And that's everything we want people to recognize but when we say dreaming, often we think like, we have lots of dreams. You said when you were married, you had lots of dreams. There's lots of people thinking, I want a big house, or I want to live in this location, or like we have this many dreams. And I'm not saying any of them are bad. But I wanna know, how do we set biblical boundaries? On our dream in planning, because we definitely could like dream of anything, doesn't mean anything should be done? [Angie] I think that that's one of the benefits of having marriage too is that you can hold each other accountable because there will be times you'll both need it, right? [Jennifer] So good. [Angie] And I think that also when it comes to boundaries, I have specific boundaries that I have set for how I react when he shares his dreams because he's a big dreamer. [Aaron] When is really big enough? [Angie] Yeah, I kind of hold my breath for a minute. Three deep breaths. because I'm like, okay, that's really big. [Isaac] Because she thinks we're for sure doing it because I speak with authority, even though I am just sharing ideas that haven't even been fleshed out yet. [Angie] Yes, and so we've had to learn that about each other. And so he always is really, he's a gentle leader with me in that that he'll remind me ahead of time and say, so I don't wanna do this right now but I was thinking, X, Y, Z. [Isaac] That's only after learning for a few years, in our first two years of marriage. [Aaron] Well then ever went to listening husbands. This is a great tip. Hey, this isn't happening right now or even soon but I'm thinking about doing X, Y, Z. That's a great way to prep your wife for a big conversation. [Angie] It totally is. And then it kind of gives me some time to like let it settle, think about it. And then I don't overreact because we had done a lot of really big things together in business and in planning a vineyard. And we had, yeah, we had six of them in those 10 years. So we really had done a lot. And so, his track record led me to believe that every time you had a dream it had to happen. [Aaron] Because it's been that way. [Isaac] Yeah, and if you want your wife's support then you've got a pre-frame ahead of time like that because otherwise, when I was shared dream without pre-framing it, she would instantly sometimes look for the challenge where I'm too optimistic, she's more realistic. And that's why God put us together, because the differences are such a blessing when you embrace those differences and you respect each other. [Aaron] It's almost like God had a plan for your marriage. [Angie] Amazing, right? [Jennifer] And something that I'm hearing as you guys talk or is that this practice of dreaming together is also practicing communication and learning each other. And so another tip for those listening is learn each other, figure out how each other's going to receive things and adapt your relationship so that you guys can work together as a team and not always end up in arguments or disappointments. [Angie] One tip in that direction is that timing is everything which is one of the reasons why I think our date nights were so successful. It wasn't in the heat of the household. [Isaac] Chaos. [Angie] You know what I'm saying and so-- [Isaac] Handling are you making dinner for our children and me and I thought about this idea. [Angie] Exactly, and I thought you would. [Isaac] So husbands, it's super important to think about the timing of when to bring certain things up, challenges, good things, dreams. And sometimes you're gonna save a list for your date nights, it's super important. [Jennifer] Angie, could you just share to the wives timing for when you're sharing things with your husband, maybe what does it look like on a wife's end? [Angie] On a wife's end regarding the dreams since-- [Jennifer] Timing. [Angie] So right away, when they come home from work if they're someone who's working away from home not a good time to talk to them. Give them some time to so and and I think that night times are actually good after the kids have gone to bed. That's also a good time to talk about it, I wouldn't suggest that for the wives though as much because we just kind of are starting to relax and then it's brought up it can create some anxiety for some women. But the guys generally can handle that but you would have to judge your spouse. [Jennifer] Yeah, for sure. [Angie] But I think that they appreciate us being considerate to them in the same regard that we appreciate being considered. [Aaron] So I have this thought about, we talk about boundaries because like we can dream again of anything but what is God one, and building a, this is for me and for you guys, and everyone that's listening. Beginning to build a track record where we as individuals, as a husband and a wife, and as a marriage, submit everything to the Lord. Instead of like, hey, I have this idea. Let's sell the house and let's move over across country and start a this organization. And everyone's like, whoa, whoa, what? What are you talking about? But having a track record of like, hey, here's an idea. Let's start praying about this today and see what happens. And then learning how to follow through with things or learning how to say no to things after it's been evaluated, prayed through and sought out with counsel, so that when a husband brings up an idea, there's not this fear of like, well, is this going to end up like what happened last time where we're going to change that do something and then fall on our face, and then have to start over again, and then chase after something that follows. Does that make sense? [Isaac] It makes perfect sense. And just because something is good fruit doesn't mean it's fruit we're supposed to pick. So it's really important to have God at the center and be praying about it. It's like in the vineyard, if you have a whole bunch of fruit on a plant, you can't leave all that fruit there. Otherwise, it's gonna make bad wine. But if you cut half of it off, all the energy goes into the right fruit that we're supposed to pick, and it makes great wine. And that's the same thing for a marriage. [Jennifer] I love that. So when dreaming together, there's going to be times where there's gonna be awesome things that come that come up and get on the list that you probably can't pursue, or maybe the timings not there, and you guys have to navigate that together. [Angie] And I think sometimes too, depending on if you're a natural dreamer and you like to dream about a lot of things, sometimes it's not God's will for your life. And that's where you have to be willing to dream but be willing for God to say no. Or to say, no, not now. Because sometimes that's His answer too. And so and that's part of why I think that he's given us protection and having a spouse because we can kind of ground one another in the times when we need to. But we can also be one another's biggest cheerleader in those times when we know God's pushing us forward. [Isaac] And that's crucial 'cause husbands if you get off track, and you're not listening to God and you're in the flesh, and you just go and do something, it could be catastrophic for your family. And I have an experience where we went all in on a business venture, and it failed. And we lost everything financially for a period of time. And that was my responsibility. Now, my wife faithfully supported me, followed me through the challenges, and through the good times but that was directly a cost of me being confused and not paying attention to what God wanted. [Aaron] Oh, it's awesome that you can you can see that. And for those that are listening can learn from what you guys walked through. So that gift that God gave you, that that resource that he's given you that story is now a testimony that can warn other believers. [Angie] Yeah, we have lots of stories like that was a good story [Isaac] Oh, we do. Winning and losing. [Angie] That's right. [Jennifer] Speaking of winning, what are kingdom benefits of dreaming together and setting goals? [Isaac] Well, I think the first Kingdom benefit is your kids are watching everything you're doing. And if you're trusting God, and surrendering everything to God and working as a team together, you're modeling for them for their future marriages because what we're raising future adults, right? [Angie] That's right, yeah. And we also want them to see us pursuing God's dreams and His visions and being workers in His fields also. And so, right now with Courageous Parenting, this is a new thing that we're working together in ministry, I've been doing it for many years. And Isaac, of course, was always a missionary wherever he was, but now we're full in with Courageous Parenting. And it's a different feel around the house, everybody is involved, everybody helps out in some way from Austin helping to edit podcasts to Megan helping with the baby, and it's just, and they're behind it. That's the cool thing is that they see the vision because they wanna see other parents get impacted and they are constantly encouraging us too so. [Isaac] And I think if God is for something, it's gonna have some impact on the kingdom of God and so that's the fruit too. [Aaron] And so it's constantly saying, Okay, Lord, what do you want? Here's what we have and here's ideas that we have. How does this work into your plan? [Angie] It's really about stewardship. Actually, all of the goal setting and everything is all about stewarding. I love that. Our hearts, our lives, our children, Our resources. [Angie] All our resources. And so I remember when we had the vineyard before we planted and cultivated the vineyard in our other property, we would look out at this field and go, what should we plant there? And we would pray about it, we'd dream about it. And we thought, all different kinds of ideas. And we did have a vision for hosting weddings there one day and different things like that. But God moved us on to a different vision which I'm glad that we're here. It was definitely God's will for us to move, but yeah. [Aaron] So, I think of this, I can't remember the how the quote exactly goes but the answer is no to 100% of the questions you never asked, right. [Isaac] Yeah. [Aaron] Because like if you don't ask her you can't get a yes or no. So it's just a no. And I feel like that's how we should see this idea of dreaming as a couple as marriages for the kingdom of God and saying, okay, Lord, we have this amount of resources, we have these relationships, we have these talents and gifts that you've given us. Man, we could do this, we combine this, and just throw it all out, and then start praying over it which is what how we we direct the readers and what to do when they dream. And then start making actions. So what's a practical way that you guys dream and then plan, like okay, here's a dream and we've actually feel like this is where God's leading us [Angie] Always involves a whiteboard. [Aaron] Turn aways because they are-- [Isaac] Whiteboard or journal, I think you start on a whiteboard, afterwards ends up on a whiteboard. But yeah, I think it's so important to get things on paper, pray over it, of course, and then really vet it out and have some action steps towards it and understand each other's roles. There was some dreams where Angie's role was to praise and be supportive and take care of the family while I was doing something. There's other dreams we've done where we're both very, very active and immersed together in it. [Angie] And then there were times where Isaac would take care of the kids so that I could write and he was more active with the kids in the vineyard and taking that on, and then I would pull back away from that once that project was done. And I was all in and he would be able to slip away more towards work. And so it's kind of a dance. [Isaac] But it's so important. [Aaron] I love that idea of a dance. [Isaac] Dance, so important to have good communication, though, because things are constantly moving. [Aaron] I think a part of that good communication is having end zones. Small, like if it was just an indefinite like, hey, you're gonna watch the kids and I'm gonna write, and who knows when, that wouldn't be a healthy season. [Angie] No, you do have to have boundaries. [Aaron] So, you set boundaries and then it wouldn't be how easy is it of, if Isaac said, hey, I'm gonna be working 12 hour days for the next, who knows how long and let's see what happens. That wouldn't be a healthy. [Isaac] Here's a super important point to that which is husbands when you set a deadline for how long the sacrifice is gonna be, you better deliver. Because if you go past that deadline, your wife is gonna lose trust for you as you dream together-- [Aaron] Track record. [Isaac] There's a cost. [Aaron] You wanna have good track records within this process. [Jennifer] Any want your word to be as good as gold. [Angie] Yeah, that's awesome and what I'm thinking when you guys are sharing all this is details. So when you're writing this down when you're making an action plan or strategy put some details and dates and times, and very specific things that will help guide these boundaries. [Aaron] That's good baby. [Isaac] That's was really good. [Aaron] So, as we come to a close, I want to ask you, it's so easy to just say, We're gonna be big dreamers and big planners, and we're gonna get all these practical steps and... What is the foundational perspective biblically that we should have in all of this because the Bible talks about planning. [Angie] And He talks a lot about our marriage, I think it comes down to what our marriages really for, God. [Isaac] To glorify God. [Angie] It's not about us. And so when you realize that your marriage isn't about you, and that it's meant to be a light to the world, and that you are bearing God's image to them, your perspective changes and that's for all of us. It doesn't matter what you're doing for work or if you're in ministry, we are all part of the body of Christ. And we all-- We're all in ministry, this is our, yeah. Exactly. Everyone is a missionary wherever they are. They're all lights and ambassadors. [Isaac] Yeah, it's to fulfill the greatest, the Great Commission, and to glorify God in everything we do, and we've always believed that the things we're gonna do, it's gotta have some kind of positive impact on people. And that doesn't need because every-- [Aaron] When you say positive, do you mean like in a faith way and in a biblical way? [Isaac] In a biblical, faith focused way. And I'm not saying everybody, every goal has to be like that. But I've had goals that weren't, like investing in resources, and I lost deeply. And I did not get my wife's approval. [Aaron] That's for another podcast. [Isaac] It's for another but I just want to warn you that God is in control, and we should fear Him, and not the world. And really obey him by our actions. [Angie] I think too, we mentioned stewardship, and one of the verses that comes to mind is about our treasures and building treasures in heaven. And I think that as we're setting goals as a couple, and we're remembering these foundational truths about marriage that we keep in the back of our minds that we're building for Him, and we're building for the kingdom of God in heaven because we're partnering with Him and the Great Commission and-- [Isaac] So good. [Angie] And that we're gonna experience pushback because whenever you do something that God's calling you to do, you're gonna experience some pushback. We have enemies, we have our own flesh And God cares about our sanctity through the process of the journey of life as well and so hard dreams are good because they bring out those things that need to be sanctified in you. [Isaac] Yeah, I mean, often I have said if you're not salty, you might not even realize there's a battle. But if you are salty, you're fully aware because you feel it. And there is a spiritual battle at hand. And as you press in and set goals together and try, and do things for God's glory, there is an enemy that hates that. The good news is God is way more powerful. but you need to be aware, and you need to pray. [Aaron] So, do you guys, in all of these conversations we have there just can be an inkling of, well, that's good for you. And I understand that God's got this call because we use this idea of call. Is there anyone in the body of Christ that's exempt from the things you're talking about? [Isaac] Not at all, you could be doing any position, it be in any kind of circumstances, any kind of financial situation. And it's the same truth for every married couple. [Angie] And the reason why is because God wants people, He wants their hearts, He wants to be reconciled to everyone. And so He may place you in a place that's really hard. But I think that God would ask of you to think big, think and view them the way He views them, and would He want you to have a goal or a dream that's gonna impact that other co-worker that's in the cubicle next to you. [Isaac] I would also say there's nothing worse than when you go out to dinner and you see couples not talking to each other, or looking at their phones, ignoring each other. And that potentially, is because they're not making progress together and doing things for God as a team. [Aaron] And I feel like, Jen, you might be able to speak into this a little bit, that setting, you said heavenly treasure like treasures in heaven, treasures above. The Bible tells us to look above to think on things above and not on things that on earth, and setting goals and pursuing heavenly things and always looking up. When I think of those couples that are sitting and not looking each other, it's because they are only looking in one direction, which is down, because we're not up, we are of the Earth currently. And I feel like that pursuing as a marriage, do you feel like as we consistently look up, it keeps our focuses off of us? [Angie] Yeah, yeah, totally. [Aaron] And that's what we wanna encourage everyone listening is this isn't just because we want plan that million dollar orphanage in another country that might be absolutely someone's calling in, and we gotta ask for them. But it's just the fact that we have we a heavenly calling. All of us as believers, we were part of the body of Christ. And that body is doing something and it's it's led by the by the head Jesus. [Jennifer] We all have gifts and to know those gifts in one another and call them out and say, hey, have you ever thought of like, I would have never even started a blog if it wasn't for Isaac starting it for me and saying here, you should write. I mean that's really your gift. [Isaac] You use your gift, here you go. [Angie] He kind of did that. I mean, this was way back before we had cellphones. He was crazy about the internet just came out sponsor. [Aaron] Oh man. [Isaac] Man, I think what happened is I said, you should start a blog, and you're like, oh, no. Some of you should start a blog, oh, no. Okay, I'm starting a blog, and I started a blog. [Angie] You edited it. [Isaac] And I started a blog, and I'm writing, I'm writing and the only reason I started a blog was so that she was started blog. And that's how she started hers. [Jennifer] Did he buy a book? That is actually, no. [Jennifer] That's awesome, before we wrap up, I really want our listeners to benefit from your guys' wisdom on parenting. And so I just wanna ask the question, how have you guys incorporated dreaming together as a family with your children? [Isaac] I think it's so important to include your kids in the process. It's fun. It is really fun. And one of the interesting things is that everybody has New Year plans and so forth. We just started start those more toward November going into the new year. And what we do is we run a session with the kids and we go, how did this year go? We have them. [Aaron] Is there a whiteboard involved? There's a whiteboard. Yes. [Isaac] And we have them rate the different areas of life, spiritual. [Angie] How did they do in that category? [Isaac] Yeah and we talked about it. And then then we do another session where they set intentions for the new year. And we just still got the-- [Aaron] I like intensions, it's better than resolutions. [Isaac] Yeah, intentions is good. [Angie] It good intentions and Isaac always takes a picture after they have shared what they are, and takes a picture so that he can put it up on the screen the next year. And he also kind of texts us randomly throughout the year goes, how are you doing on your goals? [Jennifer] Wow, [Angie] It's really for-- [Jennifer] Seriously, that's awesome. [Angie] Yeah, our oldest daughter, Kelsey, is at college and she actually just texted me a picture of her goals that are on her wall next to her bed. That was a huge win. So even like, all the kids really enjoy it, even our three year olds had goals this year to stay potty trained and get candy. [Isaac] What's awesome for that is-- [Jennifer] I would like to get candy bars. [Isaac] When they rate different areas of their life. It's so neat to see all the kids in the family rallying for them, no, you're more like an A, you are not a C. You're not-- [Isaac] It's awesome. [Angie] It was really encouraging because they would all give feedback and and say, oh, well, have you thought about this goal? And they would like add on to it and so it was really fun. [Isaac] Self evaluation is an incredible gift. [Jennifer] And it sounds like it doesn't matter what age children? [Angie] No, I mean, Eli was with us and he's four months old That's awesome. He was adamant. Sometimes in our age. [Angie] Self training. [Aaron] Taking solid foods, stay cute. [Jennifer] Awesome, thank you guys so much for your insight there. I know that it just is blessing everyone, everyone's probably gonna wanna redo all their-- Resolutions. --new goals for 2019. Okay, so the last question we have for you is, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Angie] Well, I think that we kind of talked a little bit about it before, just that our marriage would reveal the image of God to everyone, to our children to the world around us. And that we'd be striving to one another. One of the images that comes to my mind is in life trials because we have definitely experienced those in 19 years of marriage. When you're both chasing after God or running after him in that hard time I think you're gonna meet there and you're gonna be stronger versus if you're-- [Isaac] Stronger together. [Angie] Versus like if a husband loses a job or a wife is ill, or you could name whatever trial you're walking through, if one person starts working harder to fix the problem versus running to God first, there's a difference in how your marriage is revealed to your kids and the strength of marriage. [Isaac] And then when we say our wedding vows, almost everybody has in their wedding vows or some part of the marriage ceremony is to become one flesh. And do you really believe that? Well, if you do, then you're going to treat your bride or your husband like they are yourself. Because we really do become one. And when you become one, like Angie said, you become way more powerful for the impact for the kingdom of God. And we've always held that as the most important vision. [Jennifer] Well that was incredible. I could just listen to you guys all night, and that's awesome. [Isaac] Well, if people want to, they can go find them at courageousparenting.com, or through their podcast, Courageous Parenting but you can get anywhere podcasts are. And they should definitely go check out their podcast because we don't talk nearly enough about parenting. And that's all they talk about, like this. They talked about the painting like-- [Jennifer] This is we glean all of our needed parenting. [Aaron] You guys have blessed us over the years by your gift of knowledge and parenting, your wisdom in parenting. And so we've been totally blessed by that. So not just the planning stuff that we've seen in your life, but all aspects of your life we've been blessed by, so thank you for honoring us and blessing us by coming on our show. [Isaac] We've been so blessed by your friendship and love what's happening with the ministry here. [Aaron] Yeah, thank you. [Jennifer] I also wanna mention you guys are really active on social media. So where can people find you if they wanna follow you daily? [Isaac] Courageous Parenting and-- [Angie] Courageous Mom. [Isaac] And Resolute Man. [Angie] Yeah, so on Instagram, that's where we're the most active for sure, I'm courageous.mom and he's resolute.man. And then on Facebook. [Aaron] Awesome, so, at the end of every episode, we end in prayer. So if you guys wanna join me in prayer? [Isaac] Yeah. [Aaron] Dear Lord, we pray would be husbands and wives who dream together. We pray the dreams and the goals that we consider are ones that you put in our hearts. We desire to be used by you to fulfill your purposes. We wanna build your kingdom and not our own. And we remember to submit our plans to you always. There are things that we dream up that need to wait or need to be pushed aside, please help us to be humble. Help us to let go of any pride so that we don't pursue what of we want but instead only what you want. May we experience intimacy in marriage as we intentionally consider all that you have for us. We also pray we would have fun as we do this as a team for your glory. In Jesus name. [All] Amen. [Aaron] So, we just wanna thank everyone for listening. This has been part 13 in this 16 part series. There's a couple more, there's a few more awesome interviews coming up. So, I hope have you guys next week. Thank you for joining us. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at Marriage After God calm and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary an marriage.

Join the Marriage After God movement and order a copy of our new book today. https://marriageaftergod.com Quote From the book: “...what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough.” Prayer *Dear Lord, We thank You for the way you created us and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so that we can see all of the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriage to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do! In Jesus’ name, amen!* READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage after God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're in part 11 of the Marriage after God series, and we're going to be talking with Katie and Elisha Voetberg about taking inventory. Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through vlogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage after God. So today's guests are Elisha and Katie Voetberg from the podcast Now That We're Family. [Aaron] So before we get to the interview with Katie and Elisha Voetberg, we would love to ask anyone that's listening if they have not already to leave a review for us. That helps other people find the podcast. It helps the rankings in iTunes. So if you have a moment, leave us a star rating, leave us a text review. We'd love to see that. [Jennifer] We also wanna invite you guys to check out our new book Marriage after God, which is available at our store. So just go to shop.marriageaftergod.com to check that out and get your copy today. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the whole point of this series, is we're promoting our book coming out on June fourth, and we would love for you to get a copy of it. But following in the series, we're almost done with it, and we're excited to have you. Okay, Katie, Elisha, friends of ours. [Jennifer] Thank you for being here. [Elisha] No, thank you! [Katie] We're so stoked to be here today. [Aaron] We're here in our garage. Usually we record in our office, so there might be a little bit more echo, but this fits all of us. It's this fun little setup we got, I love it. [Jennifer] And it's in person. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So I feel like it's just fun all around. [Aaron] So thanks for joining us, and no one is probably gonna know you, so why don't you guys tell everyone who you are, how long you've been married, kids, stuff like that. [Elisha] Right on, yeah. So my name is Elisha Peter Voetberg, and this is my lovely wife Kathryn Joy Voetberg, and we've been married for three years now, and we're pregnant with our third child. [Jennifer] Woohoo! [Elisha] So we've got a two-year-old. Yeah, we're really pumped. We've got our two-year-old, Leon Tucker, and our daughter Lucy's just about a year, and then we've got our third baby on the way. And we love being a part of fellowship with you guys, doing fellowship. [Aaron] Oh, I forgot to mention we go to church with them. [Elisha] Yeah, that's right. That's a huge highlight for us. And we're just really excited about life with each other and seeing what God can do through the family unit and through marriage. [Aaron] Cool, and that's why you guys started your podcast, was you loved what God was doing in your marriage and in your family, and we'll get into some more of your guys' background in a little bit. But yeah, if you haven't checked out their podcast, it's Now That We Are Family, and you can just search for that on iTunes or anywhere you can get podcasts, actually, so. [Jennifer] Awesome, okay, moving right along. [Aaron] This is our fun little section. We love this part. [Jennifer] Yeah, we wanted to invite you guys to join us for the icebreaker question, which is, what is one of your funniest marriage moments? [Elisha] Funniest, Katie? [Aaron] Katie has one, and she's prepared. [Katie] I am prepared. No, well, I would have to say one of our funniest marriage moments is probably the most ironic marriage moment, 'cause it was actually a fight. [Elisha] That's true. [Katie] But people think it's funny. [Elisha] It's funny now, right? [Katie] Yeah, exactly. [Aaron] Not in the moment, but it is absolutely funny now for everyone else. [Katie] Exactly, so it happened at our honeymoon, and I think it was the first wake-up call Elisha had to who he had married. [Aaron] Oh, no. [Elisha] Yeah, so yeah, I guess I'll tell the story. Katie and I, you're gonna hear more about our families, but we were both brought up in big families, and Katie's family was extremely strict when it came to sugar intake. And my family definitely was health-conscientious, but certainly not as strict regarding sugar as Katie's family was. [Katie] Nowhere close. [Elisha] Nowhere close. [Aaron] Yeah. And I think it was day four of our honeymoon, and I viewed our honeymoon as being a time that was celebratory, and you can kinda splurge. [Aaron] Yeah, which means it doesn't matter what you eat. [Elisha] It doesn't matter what you eat. [Aaron] You can have as much as you want. [Elisha] Exactly, that's how I was viewing it. And so, it was the evening of our fourth night, I think, the fourth day in our honeymoon, and we decided to get a little treat for a movie that we were gonna watch. And so, I got a pack of Skittles, just like the normal size. It wasn't the super size, it wasn't the party size. It was just the normal serving size of Skittles. And Katie didn't want anything, and that really blew my mind. I was like, you're not gonna get a treat? She goes, no. She was like, I'll have some of yours, which is classic, right? [Jennifer] Yeah, you're like, no you're not. [Elisha] Classic, yeah, exactly. And so, we started watching the movie, and I had a few Skittles, and then Katie took three Skittles and she told me that that was gonna be enough for her. [Katie] No, I had, okay, yeah. Okay, I guess, but this is a classic like, let me help you tell the story, honey. But I ended up eating 11 Skittles. [Aaron] She remembers the exact number. [Katie] Which was splurging for me. And Elisha was like, you're counting your Skittles? But then I took the Skittles away from him. [Elisha] Yeah, after I had eaten maybe 20 or 25 Skittles. [Katie] That's a lot of Skittles. [Elisha] Yeah. [Katie] Up until this point, I'd maybe had like one. Anyways, like, my family, I'm one of 11 kids, and we would split a bag of Skittles and make it last for two or three days. [Aaron] Wow, that's incredible, actually. [Katie] Anyways, yeah, so it led to kind of a crazy fight, and since then, I realize that I am the one that most people don't agree with on this story. [Aaron] Yeah, Skittles are usually a single-event, single-instance candy. [Elisha] Yeah, that's how I viewed it, exactly. She wanted to save it. [Aaron] It's one serving, isn't it, like, the whole bag? [Elisha] Exactly, I thought it was one serving too. [Katie] I wouldn't believe it, and we had to read the back. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Aaron] That is funny now, for sure. [Elisha] It's funny now. Well, you know what's funny is that we're laughing about it, but she was dead serious at the moment. She grabbed the bag from me. [Katie] I hid 'em. [Elisha] Yeah, and I thought she was being playful and kind of flirtatious. I was like, oh, come on, give me the Skittles back. She's like, no, we'll finish 'em later, like we can have 'em tomorrow or the next day. I was like, are you kidding me? I want them now. [Aaron] I wonder how many people are gonna really relate to this. They're like, this is exactly how we are with Skittles. [Jennifer] That's so awesome. [Aaron] We both would get our own bags of Skittles. [Jennifer] For sure. [Aaron] And our own bag of, what else would we get? [Jennifer] And remind each other that we're not sharing. [Aaron] Please don't have any of mine. Get your own bag if you want some. [Elisha] I don't think Katie can view you the same way anymore, now that she knows that. [Jennifer] That's okay. Okay, so we're gonna, we always share a quote, and we're gonna share a quote from Marriage after God from chapter 11, Take Inventory. Aaron, do you wanna? [Aaron] Yeah, so what we see as inadequate, God sees as enough. It's a smaller part of a bigger quote in a bigger context, but the idea is that oftentimes, we might see things that we have in our life, abilities, skills, and they're not good enough for God or adequate for what God wants to do in our life or through our life. And so we think we need something else. Oh, I don't have what it takes, that kind of mentality, but it's exactly what God's already given us, and he requires and desires us to invest it as we have it. It doesn't mean that we don't get better at things, but that's kind of the context of this, and we're gonna talk about this idea of taking inventory and we're gonna ask the questions to you guys, 'cause you guys haven't read the book yet, which is totally fine. [Elisha] Right. [Aaron] Because I think we all can learn and start to understand in our life that God's given us things, and he desires us to invest them, and not because we're trying to commend ourselves to God, but he wants us to invest them for his sake, for our sake, and it's because we love him that we invest them. So that's the quote, and then we can get into the topic and some questions for you guys. [Elisha] Cool. [Aaron] Are you guys excited about the questions? [Elisha] I am excited. [Aaron] Okay. [Jennifer] Okay, you guys are a young family figuring out what God has for you as a couple. How has that journey been so far? So you can describe things like how you feel about it, highs and lows, or maybe a significant story that stands out to you? [Katie] Yeah, so I think there have been a lot of highs and lows in our three years of marriage, and I think our first month of marriage was kind of indicative to that. Elisha was making I think $1800 at the time working at a restaurant, and our rent was 1150. So I don't even know how we quite managed to make it all work that month. We were doing a ton of odd jobs, and we started three different businesses our first month of marriage, and got pregnant. [Aaron] A little bit of things. [Katie] Yeah, like all of those moving parts I think really affected the last few years, but I think it's been so cool to see how God has worked to make all those things work together, even though there was such a random smattering of things over the years. And I think we've had so much fun, even though we didn't always see the plan, and I think what's cool now is that we trust the process so much more, and we trust each other so much more. We trust God. There were so many things through starting those businesses. Like, well, one of 'em provides for us now. It's a network marketing company, and I think it really has not only provided for us now, but it allows us to pursue our passions, and it helped give us thicker skin to handle rejection and stuff like that. So there were a lot of ups and downs just in that, you know, when you start one business. Elisha was getting his real estate license, so that was new for us, being employed, and then being unemployed it feels like when you don't have a deal. But I just think it's really cool that now, when we're uncertain of today or what tomorrow holds, 'cause I feel like as entrepreneurs, that is life. We just trust each other so much more, and we're like, you know God's gonna work these things together, and we see how he's using those things we started in our first few months of marriage now. [Jennifer] I think that's so encouraging, what you're sharing, because I think everybody has that tendency to wanna know what the next hundred steps are, like, see that bigger picture right away. But I think what you're saying is so encouraging to hear, to remind ourselves we have to just be able to trust God and trust our spouse with just that next step. [Elisha] Mmhmm. [Aaron] Yeah, Elisha, how do you, so, you guys have started businesses, making barely ends meet, which all of us have been there. Some people that are listening right now are probably right there right now. And you're just trying to figure out life. You guys have been married for three years, you have kids. You're just trying to figure out a lot of things, which is totally good, totally normal. But has there been times over the last few years that you feel like you're not moving in any direction, or how could God possibly use all these random difficulties and where we're at in our life? [Elisha] Absolutely. I know there's been numerous times where I've had those exact thoughts probably verbatim in my brain, and even looking back in retrospect over three years, and even though that's not a lot of time to some people, it's enough time for us to really realize that God does work all things together for good. There are some things that I know he's gonna continue to work out over the next 10 and 20 and 30 years of our life. But when you live, early on, month to month when it comes to your paycheck, and then you get pregnant in the middle of that, and then you get pregnant with your second child when you're kind of in the same position, it really makes you realize that the Lord does provide, and I think that that has helped me really embrace the season for what it is. I know that so often, everybody wants to arrive, right? You wanna be there, whatever there is. [Aaron] Yeah, whatever that there is. [Elisha] Whatever that is. [Aaron] How do we get there faster? [Elisha] Exactly. It might be a level of your income. It might be the size of your home or the quality of your vehicles that you're driving, but looking back over these last three years and seeing what the Lord's done, it's made us enjoy the journey and enjoy the process and trust the Lord in that. And when I look at those times where I was questioning what the heck I was doing with my life and what the Lord was gonna use with these things that I was doing, I look back, and so far, he's been so faithful to, in spite of me, a lot of times, use them for his purpose and for his glory. [Aaron] Yeah, so, I love that, and you know, this topic we're talking about, take inventory, is off chapter 11 of our book, and the idea of the chapter, we're not gonna go into too much of it, is that we can look at our lives and realize that there are, not certain things, that everything in our life, the inventory of our life, can be evaluated and looked at and say, okay, Lord, how are you using that season of life, that idea, that business that we wanted to start or that passion we have or that pain we felt? And so, what you're kinda saying is you've been looking back and saying, okay, I didn't know what I was doing then, but God's using that now. [Elisha] Yes. [Aaron] So when you look back over the last few years, and we're gonna get into your family in the next question, you look back over your life, taking this idea of inventory, can you guys pinpoint, be like, oh, wow, these things in our life, this way we were raised, certain giftings we have, talents, that's our inventory, that's what's on the shelf for us. Can you name a few of those things, and then we're gonna go into family next. [Elisha] Sure, yeah. We'll stick with our marriage so far, 'cause we haven't gotten into Katie and I's growing up experience, but I look at the businesses that we started in that first month, or even the job that I was doing. I was a bartender at the time, and obviously, you're dealing with people. You're dealing with all sorts of people as a bartender, and it's so easy for me to look at that season of life as being, man, I was just there to get tips and to go home and to pay rent. [Aaron] Right, meaningless waste of time, yeah. [Elisha] Exactly. [Aaron] However you feel about it. [Elisha] Yeah, exactly. And of course, I was interacting with eternal beings every day, whether that was my coworkers or my boss and my managers, and then, of course, the patrons that were coming and consuming alcohol, or buying food at the restaurant. And so I look back and I think, man, the Lord was preparing me just to have empathy and sympathy for all types of people. And then I think of the businesses that we started in that first month, and it was funny, 'cause we really acquired a lot of skillsets because we were kind of hacks when it came to, one of those businesses was an online music academy because I'm a musician, and I wanted to be able to offer my music lessons in an online format, and neither Katie or I were video people or really recording-type people. [Aaron] Yeah, but you guys did a good job. I remember you guys, it's still up, right? [Elisha] It is still up. [Katie] It is still up, yeah. [Elisha] It's effective, and people still use it. But we just figured it out. We just decided to dive in and go for it, and that was good for me to get over my pride and to let go of that perfectionism mindset that so often keeps us from taking any action. [Katie] And I think too it was good for us because, like, I remember when we first got married and you were a little more focused on your image then, and I was kind of like, I don't know, I was kind of a hack. I think I made you a little nervous, the way I threw around my image. [Elisha] Let's just do it, let's just do it. [Katie] Yeah, I was like, let's just do it, put it up. And I remember the first time I showed you a video that I was gonna post on Facebook. It was just a little parody I made, and Elisha's like, you cannot post that. Like, there is no way. [Elisha] That's funny. [Aaron] You're like, it's going up. [Katie] Yeah. Well, through Voetberg Music Academy, we ended up doing a lot of those little commercials or little parody videos together, and I think that that really, I mean, we use that now. [Elisha] Yep, absolutely. [Katie] And it just really helped us swallow our pride I think and just go for things. [Jennifer] Explain that a little bit more when you say we use that now. [Katie] Well, we use that now on YouTube is probably one of the biggest ways that we use that in just family vlogging now that we're a family on YouTube as well. And I think that that is kind of what spawned the podcast, because if we hadn't gotten enough confidence to just document our lives, I don't think we would have ever taken that next step to podcasting. [Aaron] That's good. So right now, what you're currently doing for the Lord, for your family, you can reach back into the inventory of those experiences and the inventory of those challenges, the trials and errors, and use that now and feel more confident in moving forward and, like you said, you wouldn't have been able to do it now if you didn't try it then or have those experiences. That's awesome. [Jennifer] That is so cool. Okay, so we touched on that we were gonna get into your families a little bit. Katie, you mentioned that you're from a big family, so how do you guys see the unique ways that you were raised or maybe family type being used for what God has you doing today? [Elisha] Yeah, so I was one of 10 children, all from the same mommy and daddy, and my parents are still married. They stayed married throughout our entire childhood, and they're in a great marriage. [Aaron] Which is rare these days. [Elisha] Yeah, and Katie is the oldest of 11 children, where it's same mommy and daddy for all the kiddos, and they're in a vibrant marriage right now. And so we were both homeschooled and brought up just with very Bible-centered homes. We read the Bible every single day as a family at the breakfast table, and sometimes at the dinner table, and I think that when I look at my history, not only was it an extremely enjoyable and relationship-rich time that I loved with my siblings and with my parents, and I know Katie feels the same way. [Katie] Yes. [Elisha] About her childhood, where we both just look back at them with really fond memories. I see that because my parents and Katie's parents, but I'll speak for myself right now, Because my parents become comfortable being unconventional and being counter-cultural, I grew up with this mindset that there are so many blessings in being different than the world. [Aaron] I like that. [Elisha] And I think my parents were the ones that were convicted by the Lord, and obviously, I was just along for the ride as a child and I was following in their leading, but they really exemplified to me that yes, a lot of times, initially, making those decisions to have many children or for the mom to stay home and be with the children and homeschool them or to take 'em out of the public and homeschool them, they can be challenging up front, and they can be challenging even for an extended amount of time. But the payoff is so worth it. So I think that growing up with a big family, in a big family and with parents that really trusted the Lord with their finances, with how many children they're going to have, it made me realize that I've adopted a lot of these mindsets not even knowing it. And so when I hear people that are my age say, well, we couldn't afford to have children now, I just think to myself, well, yeah you could. Where's that coming from? And I think that statements like that are so commonly accepted in our culture and in the world and they're never challenged, and I just don't believe that. I believe that you could probably find a way to afford to have children. I think that you can find a way to afford for the mother to stay home and not go to work and to even homeschool her children. And I think you can find a way to have a romantic and fun and flirtatious marriage, even while you have a bunch of kids, because I saw it exemplified to me. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the magic right there. [Elisha] Yeah, and so I'm not saying that I know how to do it; I just believe it can be done, and I think that Katie feels similarly. [Katie] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think sometimes, there is this mindset of, we have to do things how everyone else does them, and I think the way we grew up, like, I had some of the best years of my life living in a tent and a trailer, you know? Like, we did that for two years so my parents could save up a down payment for their house, and they had six kids at the time, but those are some of the best memories of my childhood. And I think sometimes, we have this misconceived perception that, oh, we need to earn this amount of money or we need to take our kids to Disneyland or we need to be able to provide these things for our kids, and I just don't have that perspective at all. Because of the way I was raised, I just have incredible relationships with my parents, and I have such amazing memories of growing up in unique situations. I guess my experience helps dispel some of those societal norms. [Aaron] Yeah. So you, you have a lot of resources at your fingertips from the way you were raised, the versatility, the flexibility to make decisions that might be, hey, if we slow down here, we can speed up over here, or if we lessen what we're spending money on over here, we can have money to do something over here. You have those things at your fingertips to use now because of how, and you didn't even get to choose it. [Elisha and Katie] Exactly. [Aaron] Right? 'Cause that's kind of some of the things that we like to point out and we want our listeners to know, fortunately your family stories are powerful and just relationally rich, and then some people listening are gonna be like, well, I didn't have a family like that. My family wasn't that great. I didn't have strong Christian parents. But our point in this idea of taking inventory is that your story and your family doesn't give you something extra. It's what God has given you. And my family story's different, similar in some ways, but different. Jennifer's family story's different. And we we don't have your story to use in what God has for us to do ministry in, right? [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] We use our story, the inventory that we have that God's given us. And so, that's kind of what's awesome about taking inventory of our lives, is our listeners can take inventory and be like, and I wanna encourage them that are listening not to throw out their story 'cause it's not your story. [Elisha] That's right, absolutely. [Aaron] Because they do have inventory, and God wants us to look at what we have and what he's given us and say, here you go, Lord. [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] So here's my family and how I was raised, the good things and the bad things that happened to me as a child that I had no choice in, and how do you want me to use this for you, Lord? How do you want me to invest this? How do you wanna redeem this in my life? How do you wanna turn it into something for you, not for me, not for my sake. And so, maybe that gives someone listening right now peace and actually some courage in their own inventory. [Jennifer] Yeah, and something I wanna highlight is just that how cool that God would have you guys here on the show and be able to share your story, 'cause I think it will be an encouragement to someone. 'Cause like you said, there's other ways of living that have been expressed and accepted in our culture, and your story's different, and the fact that you're here and you're sharing and whoever's listening could be encouraged by this, I love that. [Aaron] Yeah, that story by itself right now, whether it has any other implications in your life, could potentially minister to someone today, which is amazing, right? [Katie] Incredible. [Aaron] And that's just one small way that God uses what we are, what we have that he's given to us, is just by saying yes to him, which is a theme that we mention throughout our whole book, is saying yes to God. [Jennifer] Okay, so when we say yes to God, sometimes insecurities flare up, fears, things like that. So what are some of your biggest insecurities when it comes to using your gifts and talents for God? [Elisha] You know, it's funny, 'cause I think that, even piggybacking on talking about our family, our unique story and our unique experiences can often be debilitating to us, and we can oftentimes find ourselves experiencing paralysis by analysis because we feel like we're from such a unique perspective, we can't relate with people. How are we gonna be able to connect and really encourage and exhort, whether that's fellow believers or minister to people that are not saved, and oftentimes, I mean, you can look at that from two ways. One, I feel extremely strong in my faith because of what my parents have done before me, but it also makes me realize it's not about me. It's not about Katie. It's about Jesus Christ. And I think of, is it II Peter chapter one, I think it's verses three and four that whereby are given unto you all things. [Aaron] That pertain to life and godliness, yeah. [Elisha] That pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who's called you to glory and virtue. And that's not the prerequisite. The prerequisite for that is not coming from a Christian family. The prerequisite for that's not coming from the fourth generation or fifth generation of Bible-believing Christians; it's being in Christ. [Aaron] It's being in Christ. [Katie] That's good. [Elisha] It's being a new creation in Christ. But the cool thing about that is that legacy is a real thing, and you have the ability in Christ to start a new legacy. We were just at my grandfather's funeral a week and a half ago, and it was really powerful to be there with his six children and then 42 grandchildren. [Aaron] Wow, that's incredible. [Elisha] And this is my mother's father, and to hear his story of being orphaned at 12 years old, heavily abused, on the street starving, an alcoholic father who ended up being a felon, never knowing his mother and never knowing the love of Christ in his home and making a decision to follow the Lord at 16 years of age, and the legacy that's come from that. [Katie] It's incredible, and we get to benefit from that. [Jennifer] That's powerful, wow. [Elisha] Absolutely, yeah, really is powerful. [Aaron] Wow, love that. [Elisha] And so, to get back to your question, insecurities, I think it's so easy to feel inadequate, 'cause of course, apart from Christ, we are inadequate, but that's not where we're at anymore. So you need to accept the reality that hey, we're in Christ, we are a new creation in Christ, and we do have all things pertaining to life and godliness, and therefore, we are equipped. And so I think our youth can play a factor in that, not feeling old enough. [Katie] I definitely think that plays in too. You feel like, well, I don't have enough experience, you know, life experience. [Aaron] I know, you're not allowed to have a podcast about family yet until you've had a family for a super long time, right? [Katie] Exactly, exactly. [Elisha] Exactly, that's right. [Katie] So I think we do wanna be thoughtful in that and share what we're experiencing more and what we're learning in the moment versus teaching, 'cause obviously, our oldest is two, you know what I'm saying? Elisha and I have been married for three years. [Aaron] Right, there's things you actually don't know, and that's fine. [Katie] Yes. So I think we want to be wise and cautious in that, but that doesn't mean that we can't encourage someone who's in a similar situation. [Elisha] Yeah, and I think that even though there's so much that we have yet to learn and that we need to learn as life goes on, I know that Katie and I are really excited about family, and we're excited about growth, and I think that regardless of what stage of life you're in, if you're in Christ Jesus, you can be excited about the future. [Aaron] Ooh, I like that. [Elisha] I know that's where we're at right now. [Aaron] So that sounds very similar to ours. When we launched Unveiled Wife and then Husband Revolution, how long were we married? Five years? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And people even asked us, how long have you been married, like, older people, which rightfully so asking us, but I always tell people, we're not marriage experts. We've never proclaimed to be marriage experts. That would have been wrong of us to do. We're marriage storytellers. [Jennifer] Yeah, storytellers. We're sharing our experience. [Aaron] How are we failing, what's God teaching us, and again, going back to our book, one of the themes is like what you said, it's not us. It's not my experiences that is changing anyone's hearts or that has any value, other than Christ using it. And it's his story. It's his vocation, it's his ministry, not ours. It's his message, not ours. And so, as long as we're going back to the very thing that's changing us and transforming us, like, the gospel's the power of God unto salvation, right? The gospel and Christ in us through the Holy Spirit, that's what we're doing in this world. So we've had the same exact inadequacies and fears almost every time we launch anything. Launching this podcast, we were like, we don't know how to do podcasts. So I hope that encourages people listening to realize, wow, if God's calling me out, and not if, he is calling me out and wants me to follow him and wants me to use my life and the inventory of my life for his glory, they should be encouraged to know that even if they feel doubt and fear, that it's not them anyway. It's Christ doing it. [Katie] Exactly. [Elisha] Amen. [Jennifer] I think it's important to note we have a real enemy who does not like us using the gift and things that God's given us to glorify God. [Aaron] No way, yeah. [Jennifer] And so there's gonna be opposition to that, and I think our flesh is sensitive to that. So sometimes it does come in the form of insecurities or fears and things that we're afraid of, but it's just temptation from the enemy to try and distract us. [Katie] That's a great perspective. [Aaron] Yeah, but I love that you guys use wisdom and thoughtfulness. I don't think we should test God and run into the middle of the street and say, save me! [Katie] Definitely not. [Aaron] We need to present, again, going back to the taking inventory, we don't just say like, oh, I'm gonna use this thing in my life this way. No, we say, okay, Lord, here's what I have. This is what you've given me, this abuse as a child, your grandpa story, or my godly upbringing, or this schooling I went to. Whatever it is, these gifts, these natural abilities that you've given me, here you go. What do you want? How do you wanna arrange this and turn it into a clay pot or a basketball hoop or whatever it is that he wants to mold it into. [Jennifer] It's in humility and submission to his will and his purposes, which leads me to the next question. I'd love for you guys to share on this. What's the purpose of all the gifts and things that he gives to you, or to us? What is the purpose? [Elisha] Yeah, I think big picture answer is it's for God's glory and for the furtherance of the gospel. [Aaron] Yeah, we talked about this on Sunday, didn't we? [Elisha] We did, that's right, a few days ago. And the way that plays out practically with each couple I think is obviously gonna look different, 'cause there are so many different skillsets and passions. And it's fun when you accept that big picture of, man, this is for God's purpose. It's for his glory. It's for the furtherance of his kingdom. Then it almost makes it like a fun game to figure out what your skillsets are and how you can be a part of the puzzle and the pie, realizing, wait, it's not about me. I don't have to get all the credit. [Aaron] Yes, yes. [Elisha] In fact, I shouldn't get all the credit. Like, how can I fit into the strategy that God has? And I think obviously, Katie and I are in the journey of figuring that out, and something that we both talk a lot about is being aware of the desires that are on our heart, and the Lord I think oftentimes places those on your heart, and then also being open to counsel. And you can speak to this, Katie, but I think that we've gone back and forth of caring too much about what people think of us, whether that's close friends and relatives, or even people that we don't know personally, but they have their opinion online of us and we'll let that influence the action we're taking. But then you can swing the pendulum and say, well, forget what people think. I'm just gonna do what I wanna do. And there's obviously, the Bible talks about there being safety in the counsel of many. And so I think finding this place where you say, man, the Lord's put something on my heart. I wanna have a community of counsel that I can go to and be humble before, knowing that they can totally see blind spots in my life, but then also realizing I don't wanna make decisions based off of the fear of man or what somebody might say to me. [Aaron] Right. [Jennifer] So good, and I find so much encouragement in several things that you guys have already shared throughout this episode, things like have fun along the way, enjoy the journey, and I love that, and I just wanted to take note for everyone listening, and for everyone who's gonna read the book Marriage after God, because sometimes, we just tell it like it is and encourage them to do. But I want them to hear this. It is a journey to be enjoyed, and it is something to have fun with yourselves when you're figuring it out. And so I just wanted to make a note, I love that you said that. [Aaron] And the highlight in your story, just all the unique variables, we call it inventory, that God has equipped you guys with to do the unique thing that he's having you do, whatever that looks like. It could be a business. It could be just you working nine-to-five jobs, you just being a mom, but how you guys work together with your gifts and talents, we don't know, but you guys are trying things and chasing after what God wants for you and saying, okay, Lord, okay, that's not it? Okay, cool, and we'll take the experience from that. We're gonna use it for the thing that you do want us to do, and that it's this organic thing. 'Cause God knows the complete picture. [Elisha] That's right. [Katie] He does, yes. [Aaron] It says many plans are in the man's heart, but it's the Lord that directs the steps. So we have these plans, we have these ideas, and we say, if the Lord wills it, and then we take a step, and you say, okay, that's the right step. Oh, no, that's the wrong step. Let's go to this step, let's do this way, and we let him direct us. And what's awesome is along the way, whether you have reached that goal, whatever that thing is, like you said, we always have this picture of what it might be, and we actually don't even know what it might be. We just think, it's usually probably compared to someone else's thing. [Katie] Probably. [Elisha] That's usually what it is. [Aaron] But like even right now, just by you saying yes to him in all of these decisions, you're saying yes to him, and you begin to see him not only change you guys, make you guys more in love, stronger in your marriage, better parents, better brothers and sisters in Christ, but then also, you get used to grow the kingdom, just along the way. Whether you ever achieve that position or ministry or goal or whatever it looks like, it's happening along the way because you're saying yes to God, and I think that's amazing. [Elisha] Yep. [Aaron] So, do you feel like God is currently inviting you two to do anything specific, like, as you guys have been navigating with all these gifts and talents and resources? [Katie] Yeah, well, I think that it's, like we mentioned, it has been a journey. I think it's so cool to see how the Lord has had us work together in little ways right off the bat, because there is no way we'd be able to even do the projects we're working on now if we hadn't taken those little steps, and I think of with Voetberg Music Academy, where I started recording a live show and we started getting into video, but I was so insecure talking in front of a camera in front of Elisha. I wasn't insecure about the camera. [Aaron] Elisha, turn around please. [Katie] Yes! [Elisha] Exactly, she would tell me to leave. [Katie] He'd have to leave. I had a crush on Elisha since I was eight years old, and I tried my entire life to impress him. [Aaron] Oh, that's awesome. And now he's standing there in front of you. [Katie] So then after we got married, I was like, I can't do this, and he was so good at it, and he was so good at communicating that, I don't know, there was just no way we were going to ever be able to talk to a camera together. And I think it was so cool, because I started my own YouTube now that I'm a mother before we did anything online, and it was cool how that just built my confidence, and that was a little step. It was just a hobby and a fun thing, but I do think the Lord was using it to build my confidence for us to be able to start doing video together and starting the vlog, and then starting, and I think it also gave you confidence too. [Elisha] Yes. [Katie] In the flip side, to see me just putting my life out there and people being encouraged by it, and that gave you the urge I think to have us jump into that together. [Elisha] Absolutely. [Katie] Which again led to the podcast, and I do think even though we are young and we are really newly married and a new family, we do have a desire to encourage family and encourage biblical rules and encourage seeking out what God's word says about family in a culture that is so starkly opposed to just the biblical worldview. And so, I think that's our goal, and that might look different throughout the years. The mediums we use to communicate might look different, but I think for both of us, that's what God has placed on our heart, to just encourage young families in our stage of life and newly married couples. [Aaron] Yeah. So I just wanna encourage you guys, 'cause I know you both, we go to church together, we know most of your families. Whether you have direct experience with being parents of large families and have been doing for ages, or you have a two-year-old, right? [Elisha] Yeah, that's right. [Aaron] You have more experience in this than many people, because I grew up in a family of two. You grew up in a larger family, but not the way you guys did. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And whether or not you are directly experiencing it, which you are, just with a much smaller size right now, you were drawing from that inventory of how you were raised and the experience that no one has had, rarely, 10 children, 11 children, parents that stayed together that not just stayed together but love each other, 'cause that's a big thing. [Jennifer] Yeah, there's parents that stick it out. [Aaron] Lots of people, they stayed together, but it wasn't very joyful, right? [Elisha] Right, right. [Aaron] And so that's what's awesome, is whether or not you feel completely qualified, you're more qualified than me to talk about it, just by the experience you had, now, as long as we stay humble and we submit to the Lord and say we're gonna do it your way, 'cause it's his story. So I just wanted to encourage you guys that. I think that's awesome you're starting. I think we need more people, more believers. That's the whole purpose of this book, is to say yes to God and say, God, here's what you've given me. How do you wanna use it? [Elisha] Yes, amen. [Jennifer] Okay, guys, this is the last question, and it's in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Elisha] In our own words, what is a marriage after God? [Katie] Okay, you go first. [Elisha] This isn't fair, 'cause we haven't read the book yet, guys. [Aaron] This is exactly why we're asking. [Elisha] I see. You know, God invented marriage, so I really do think that he gets to choose what the purpose of marriage is, what marriage is, what the end goal is, and something that Katie and I have really been contemplating over the last few months is that when you are joined in holy matrimony, you don't then start to try to become one; he makes you one. And so therefore, you start to act like one. And I think that so often, and this carries over into our faith. We think that when you are made new in Christ, from the day you're saved, you're a son of God. [Aaron] Oh, I love that, yeah. [Elisha] You are free from sin. You're able to live as a son of God. That doesn't mean that you don't need to learn some things, but you're learning to act how he's made you to be. I think it's the same thing with marriage. Oftentimes, we think, man, we need to become one, when in reality, you are one. He says, when two are joined together, they should no longer be called two, but they should be called one. And I think that once we've started to realize that more and more, we've realized that when I make decisions that aren't to the unity of our marriage, it hurts Katie, and similarly, if it's a negative decision, and if Katie makes a negative decision, it hurts me, whether you want it to or not. And I think that once we've started to have our minds transformed, you know, our minds are being transformed because we're renewing them and starting to believe what God says about who we are as Christians and then who we are as a married couple, we start to walk that out, we start to be one. And so once again, that's just one area that God has spoken to about marriage, saying hey, you are one. There's no more two, there's no more Elisha and Katie. You are one. I don't care how you feel. I don't care how she thinks or you think, you are one. So you better start learning how to act like it. Otherwise, it's gonna be a pretty miserable journey. [Aaron] Ooh, I love that. That's awesome, yeah. So a marriage after God is one that recognizes they are one. [Elisha] That's right. [Aaron] Like, not becoming one, they are one. And so, I love that, because you're right. We're not becoming something. We are it the moment we said yes. [Jennifer] Let's live it out. [Aaron] Yeah, and so, either we're living it out or we're fighting against it. [Elisha] Yes. [Aaron] So that's awesome, amen. So, where can people find you at? What are some websites? [Jennifer] 'Cause we know people got encouraged today. They got inspired. They wanna know more about you. [Elisha] Sure, yeah, well, you already mentioned our podcast. It's Now That We're A Family, and then we've got our YouTube channel, which is also called nowthatwereafamily. [Katie] Yep. [Elisha] And Katie's on Instagram at @nowthatimamother. [Jennifer] And she's super active there. She does live videos and interviews people. [Aaron] And her photos are awesome. [Katie] Yes, I was able to interview Jenn. That was awesome. [Elisha] Yeah, that's right, exactly. [Katie] Yeah, and are you? [Elisha] I'm on Instagram. [Aaron] Yeah, is yours @nowthatimafather? [Elisha] @nowthatimafather. [Katie] @nowthatimafather, yeah. [Elisha] That's right. Yeah, so that's really where you can find us, and then our website's nowthatwereafamily.com. [Aaron] So we just wanna encourage our listeners to go follow them and check them out. They have large families, large, awesome, godly families. [Jennifer] And they're growing theirs. [Aaron] And they're throwing theirs, and God's using them. [Elisha] Right on. [Jennifer] Okay, well, at the end of every episode, we just encourage everyone to join us in prayer. So Aaron, would you like to close us out in prayer? [Aaron] Dear Lord, we thank you for the way you created us, and we thank you for your rich provision. Thank you for equipping us for the work you have for us to do. May our eyes be opened so we can see all the wonderful ways you have equipped us. Use us to encourage our spouse in the ways you have equipped them as well. We ask that you use every one of our marriages to bring you glory and to spread your gospel. We pray against fear and against the temptation to bury the gifts you have given to us. We ask that you remove our insecurities far from our hearts and help us to trust in you. We pray that we would walk in confidence as we chase boldly after you and as we pursue doing the very things you created us and created our marriages to do. In Jesus's name, amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Elisha and Katie] Amen. [Aaron] So thanks for joining us today, Katie and Elisha Voetberg. We love you guys, and we thank you for your story and your testimony. [Elisha] Mm, thank you guys, seriously. Thank you for your ministry. [Katie] Yes. [Elisha] And, I mean, I don't know if you guys are gonna keep this on, but. [Aaron] Oh, yeah. [Elisha] But just as an example you guys have shown to us I've really been thinking about this the last couple of weeks, is your guys' consistency in your faith and in your marriage and in your child training. That's a huge blessing to me as a new father. [Aaron] Thank you. [Elisha] Then also just in being in consistent community, being in consistent fellowship with our local body here. I just know that you'll be there. I know that you're a phone all or a text away and that you will be there on Sunday, and I see you guys being so faithful in your Bible times as a family, and I just never want you guys to question not only the work that's taking place in your own family, but the encouragement that is to me as a believer and I'm sure just to the global body that watches that. [Katie] Yes, you've been such a blessing to our family. [Jennifer] Thank you for sharing that, that's awesome. [Aaron] Thank you, well, yeah, I appreciate that. [Elisha] Actually, I'm gonna say one more thing. Just 'cause I don't know how many people you're gonna have on your podcast that go to your local church, but being the father of a two-year-old boy, I've really started to think more and more about child training within the church service content. And we've been going to church for almost two and a half years now with you guys and seen how you guys have been able to really train your children to sit in church is so inspiring. [Katie] Oh my goodness, yeah. [Elisha] You guys, I know that most of you listeners probably are never gonna have an opportunity to sit in church with Aaron and Jen, but their kids are so well behaved. They sit on their laps, and the only reason that's so remarkable to me now is because I've got a two-year-old, and it feels like I'm in a jiu jitsu match throughout the entire church service with him. [Katie] Yeah, we're trying to take notes from Aaron and Jen. [Elisha] Yeah. [Aaron] Well, thank you. [Elisha] Yeah, no, it's true. [Aaron] Yeah, thank you, I appreciate that. [Jennifer] It is about consistency, I would say, just to encourage others out there. The children just, they're awesome and they're a blessing to us. [Aaron] And it takes lots of hard work, and lots of prayer, and lots of screaming in pillows. [Katie] There you go. [Aaron] So, hey, thank you, that was really encouraging. We love you guys, and all you listening, we love you, and we thank you for joining us, and we pray that you will continue on in this journey with us as we have a few more episodes in this series. We'll see you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

How often do you get complaints from the inside sales team about the outside sales team, and vice versa? “I can’t…I didn’t know...” Every business experiences the challenge of what a salesperson says and actually happens. It’s a constant struggle to make sure the sales team correctly relays what’s going to be done and the team accurately fulfills what the salesperson sells. How can you bridge the gap between inside and outside sales teams? Today, I am talking with Jennifer Stoops, senior vice president at Park Avenue Properties. She shares how external and internal sales teams can work together effectively. After all, they’re on the same team working toward the same goal. Work together, instead of separately! You'll Learn... [04:55] Definition and difference between inside and outside sales. [06:22] Three Cs: Collaboration, contribution, and communication. [08:49] Find a good personality fit for property management. [14:09] Red flags to watch out for during hiring process. [16:50] Align goals to facilitate and mitigate hatred, animosity, and frustration. [22:06] Involve property manager for transparency and transition with sales process. [24:45] Metrics to Measure: New doors and retention. [27:40] Client and Customer Retention: Change how you sell to them to build a long-term relationship. [28:20] Park Avenue Properties plans to move to one system, but now uses Knack, an internally produced business development tool. [31:00] Gamify sources of motivation (recognition or money); make a grueling job fun. [35:30] Seek buy in and feedback from clients; what problem can you solve for them? Tweetables Three Cs: Collaboration, contribution, and communication. Metrics to Measure: New doors and retention. A property manager is conflict resolution all the time. Involve property manager for transparency and transition with sales process. Resources Park Avenue Properties Jennifer Stoops’ Email Address Jennifer Stoops’ Phone Number: 704-334-2626 NARPM Zoom Zoho Klipfolio GatherKudos DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jennifer: There is an integration of the property manager pretty early on because otherwise, business development has established this great relationship in the beginning, promised the world, and in comes the property manager who's like, “I'm sorry, your property has been on the market now for 30 days, but we're going to have to lower the rate.” Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to The DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and expand your rent roll, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to grow property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, expand the market, and help the best property managers win. If you enjoy this episode, do me a favor. Open up iTunes, find The DoorGrowShow, subscribe, and then give us a real review. Thank you for helping us with that vision. I'm your host, property management growth hacker Jason Hull, the founder of OpenPotion, GatherKudos, ThunderLocal and of course DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's episode, I am hanging out with a bubbly, fantastic, wonderful lady named Jennifer Stoops. Jennifer, welcome to the show. Jennifer: Hi Jason. Thank you for having me. I appreciate the invite. Jason: It’s great to have you here. I'm sure we're going to go off on some tangents here because that's just how you and I talk. We're going to be talking about bridging the gap between inside and outside sales. Jennifer is part of a company called Park Avenue Properties and those watching this instead of listening, can see this big sign behind her. Jennifer, tell everybody a bit about who Jennifer is and give us a little bit of back story on you. Jennifer: Interestingly enough, when I moved to North Carolina in early 2007, I interviewed with John Bradford. I just got my real estate license here in North Carolina and interviewed with John in March of 2007. It is the only job I have had since I lived in North Carolina. I actually graduated with a four-year degree. I'm from Buffalo, New York. I graduated with a four-year degree and I went to work at a dental practice of all things. I had no idea that I even remotely wanted to get into the dental field but she was looking for a business manager. My degree was in business and communications. I put myself through school so I couldn't go for my MBA right away. It was just too costly at the time. After working in this pediatric dental office for about six months, the dentist sat me down and she said, “Would you consider going back to school?” and I was like, “Well sure, for what?” and she said, “We'd like for you to be a hygienist with us,” and she said, “Your personality is better with the patients than doing your insurance stuff,” and I said, “Sure.” I am a retired dental hygienist turned property manager, long story short. I’ve always had an interest in real estate but coming from Buffalo, New York, it was not a terribly lucrative field there. Nobody was moving to Buffalo, they're all moving out and I ended up doing the same. I started here as the first property manager. I've been here almost 12 years. I just worked my way up. Jason: When you started there, how many doors did the company manage? Jennifer: At that time, probably 30-ish. John and his aunt were working at the company at that time. She did the books. She was also licensed. John had actually gotten his real estate license on the side. He was a sales executive at IBM. The 30-ish properties we were managing were a combination of his and business colleagues. He came from IBM and ExxonMobil background. It was a combination of those folks and we've just grown from there. Jason: Where are you guys at now? Give people a little bit of perspective. Jennifer: We are currently at just about 1400 doors. Jason: You guys are one of the rare ones that have broken that thousand door threshold. That’s a pretty large outfit that you guys have got going on. My understanding is, John basically lets you run this thing now. Jennifer: Yes, that’s true. It’s probably been about four years actually since he’s been, as he said, at the wheel. It’s been about that long. Jason: One of the challenges that you've seen over the years is this difference between outside and inside sales. Maybe you could explain to those listening that may not be clear on what your definition is of those two things, but what are those and what sort of challenge exist there? Jennifer: In property management outside and inside sales, I think everybody at least has, —whether it's your property manager or otherwise—in our organization, if we’re going to about ours, our outside sales would be business development folks. Those that are calling on owners, potentially visiting the properties. Inside sales are our property managers really. That's the inside counterpart. Previously, before we had grown to where we are today, I would have been considered outside sales as a property manager and we had some support team that would help be sort of inside sales. But in our world today, it's our business development folks and then our property managers internally. Jason: Got it. What is the challenge that you’ve noticed? This is a challenge I think every business has experienced, the difference between what the salesperson is saying and what ends up actually happening. This is a constant struggle in any business, making sure that the sales team is correctly relaying what is actually going to be done and the team actually fulfilling accurately on what the salesperson is selling. Jennifer: Absolutely. I look at it like there's three Cs. There's collaboration, contribution, and communication. Of course, communication being the key to everything. Honestly, we've recognized you have to have all three of those to make it work right. We had even fallen into the trap and it really hasn't been that long that we've been in a mode where we’re weighing this in a little bit better. Internal complaint is always the same. “I cannot get the rent rate that business development promised. I can't honor the contract the way business development wrote it. I didn't know they agreed to these terms and now it’s special circumstances. Now I have to try to go manage. I now have to relay to the owner that they have to do these things to make a property rent-ready.” That would frustrate the internal team. The external team was, go close the deal, get contracts signed, turn it over to the internal team, and move on. There was no further engagement between the two. There was not a lot of collaboration. There was not a lot of communication leading up to the execution of the contract, the terms, the rental rate. We decided we had to change that. That has helped tremendously. We look at it like our complementary roles now. Business development outside has a counterpart inside which is really your property manager. When our business development team is signing on a new property, they are signing it to a property manager internally. You're talking to that homeowner for the first time, so you know if somebody is a little bit more just very, very business. You can probably turn them over to somebody internally that has very similar personalities with multiple property managers here. You may have somebody that's a brand new investor and needs a little bit more hand-holding. You might want to put them in touch with one of the more deliberate, or hand-holding, or soft-spoken individuals internally. The big E person can read that, but you have to get to know your internal team and that doesn't necessarily mean being in the office. There's a lot of firms, including ours, a lot of firms today that have grown. You've got maybe one main office and business development people in various markets, but you have Zoom. We were doing that right now, so you can get to know somebody, learn about them, and really feel connected to them as a teammate utilizing things like technology and stuff like that as well. Jason: What are things that you do as a company then to really make sure that the communication is there, that the collaboration is there, that contribution is focused on? I guess at the foundation, it would start with the right team members. What are some mechanisms that you put in place? How do you identify whether somebody's going to really be a good fit on the property management side, or on the outside sales, or the BDM side? Jennifer: A lot of it has to do with personality. Really, you can ask folks, too. There’s a lot of folks that'll tell you upfront, “I have no business being a forefront in sales. I prefer to be in the background.” Salespeople are historically not ultra-organized. They tend to be very chatty, very social, and folks that are more on the organized side tend to not want to be in sales roles. They feel that it can be very disorganized and they don't enjoy that. We learned that with folks around here. When we have team members, oftentimes too when you're trying to figure out their appropriate roles, you can determine good people when you interview them. We just said the other day, too, we should do this more at the interview process, but we do tend to do it afterwards. We've done some of the shortened versions like the personality profile testing, things like that. It just sort of get engaged. More often than not, people are usually asked about. They'll tell you upfront. But you're right, it is very important to have the right people on the right team. Jason: Yeah. I use a lot of assessments because I'm a nerd when I'm hiring, because I don't want to just go off of my gut. I want something that I can look at that helps me make things real clear. Jennifer: It’s probably much smarter to do it that way. A lot less harder. Jason: I love the idea of just simply asking people. One of my favorite things to ask when interviewing candidates to work at DoorGrow is to simply ask them what they most love doing and what really drains them. A lot of people listening are probably thinking, “Well, nobody's going to be honest. They're just going to say whatever the job is,” so the way that I usually phrase this is I’ll just say I’ll be honest and disclose first like what makes me uncomfortable, what I'm not good at, what drains me, the stuff that makes me feel alive, and that I love doing. I’ll just transparently share that and then I’ll say all these things that I dislike, that's why all these different people on my team have a job. That’s why they're there, because I need them for those roles to support me. Then I’ll ask them, “What drains you?” I usually preface it by just saying, “There's lots of different things that we do in this company,” which is always true. “There's so many different things you could be doing and I know that if I have you do the things you love most, that you are naturally going to do a great job at it, because that is just what you're inclined to do. I’ll never have to motivate you to do it. I won't have to follow-up to make sure you're doing it. You’re just going to do it because you love doing that. I want to make sure I get really clear on what you love because I want this job to be something you love. Tell me what you love and what drains you,” and I usually get a pretty honest answer. Most of the time, they're really honest. I'm surprised how honest they are once I preface all of that, at the things they'll tell me that drain them that they don't like. Sometimes it’s stuff that's in the job description. I go, “Okay, this is maybe not a good fit for that person.” Jennifer: One of the things that I do, like you, you're trying to get honest answers, is I'll ask, “What do you like to do in your spare time?” That can tell you a lot about a person and it’s sort of an ending question to the interview because to your point, you're usually told what you want hear as it pertains to the job description and whatnot. And exactly, we don't want people to take a role that they will not enjoy at the end of the day. It's hard to describe every single thing in any of our roles. In property management, my gosh, there's so many moving parts. But you learn very quickly when you ask somebody, “What do you enjoy doing in your spare time?” If somebody says, “I enjoy quiet time. I enjoy reading. I enjoy time by myself,” that's probably not going to be your salesperson. Jason: Probably inside. Jennifer: Right. Those that are like, “I belong to a charity organization. I'm on a kickball league. I volunteer at this and I sing in a choir,” whatever, that's probably more on your outside team. Jason: Yeah, it makes sense. I like that. That’s clever, asking what they do in their spare time. I think also when you ask just about their daily life and what they do in their spare time, they also reveal some of their propensities towards either organization, or towards maybe things that are more driven activities, which might be more outside sales. They’re more driven towards activities. I think that's clever. What are some big red flags to somebody that’s just a really bad fit for outside sales or might not be good at communication, contribution, or collaboration? Jennifer: For outside sales, it is the folks that are, “I prefer to work by myself. I prefer to work independently. I don't like to talk on the phone.” They get nervous with having to speak to customers. There are certain little things that’ll come out when you learn that because this is development. In any organization, there's a lot of not only talking to the customer but branding whatever company it is. Maybe you and I were both at the same conference. You're out there, I'm there branding Park Avenue as an attendee, but still representing the brand as you are for yours. When people are not necessarily wanting to be in a social situation or things like that, that's going to be a problem. Those are red flags. Jason: What about red flags on the inside side? You're looking for a candidate for the inside that you want them to be a property manager, what are some things to say, “This person's not going to be able to handle this. They’re not going to last in this role,” because that can be a challenging role, dealing with all the maintenance stuff, dealing with upset tenants. It takes a fairly resilient person, I would imagine, to deal with that. Jennifer: Yeah, it’s that conflict resolution. If people tell you, “I don't enjoy conflict. I struggle with conflict,” that's a big one because a property manager is conflict resolution all the time. You don't need for it to be, but you're a middle man between an owner and a tenant, so you have to. Or if they give you the, “I know the hours are 9-6, but if I left a little early on these days a week...,” or I've had folks say, “Is this job always in the office? Because I don't enjoy being in an office all day every day,” that's like, “Yeah, it kind of is.” That may be a candidate for outside sales, but you still have conflict resolution even in outside sales because that goes back to the collaboration that we've learned. I think business development in outside sales didn't normally have to deal with that. Really, the conflict was coming from the disconnect between inside and outside. But business development folks or outside sales were kind of [...] and the conflict resolution and all the other problem-solving things were coming from the inside team. That was creating the disconnect between the two teams. We're all on the same side, so we had to figure out how to go fix that. Jason: Yeah. Then in tech companies, where you had the sales team and what they would sell, and then you'd have the fulfillment side would hate the sales team. There is this animosity that was tangible inside the companies I would see, in which the billing department, or the fulfillment department, or whatever, were like, “The sales guys are always selling stuff. They said it wrong. They’re not doing it right,” and there's this frustration. How do you facilitate this bridge between the two to mitigate that? Let’s say you got the right people in place. How do you ensure that there's a really good understanding on both sides of what their capabilities are and what's accurate? Jennifer: We actually started to align the goals. Business development roles have a tendency to operate on bonus structure. Obviously, it's sales. Its target, its bonuses, its goals. We’ve recognized that even though the folks internal are generally W2-based salary employees. There is a way to align that to where they win together, they lose together, a shoulder-to-shoulder approach. What we had done was we created transparency. We aligned the goals. The goal for the entire organization is new business and retaining business. Previously, we would run into issues where business development would close the deal, turn it over, move on. Now, the way that we have it structured, they get a portion of their bonus structure at the execution of the agreement, but the balance of it doesn't happen until the property is rented for the first time. It forces the two to stay engaged. We've created a clear path of collaboration between the two as far as, business development will make the call, they may negotiate some of the terms, but the contract which wasn't done this way previously, will actually be sent out now by the property manager. Not that we're trying to put more work on the property manager’s [...], document signed doesn't take that long, but it forces the two of them to talk about the terms that were agreed to with the homeowner. Prior to the contract given going out, the collaboration on the rental rate happens. An inspection of the property happens, so the two of them are looking at the inspection to come to terms with what the owner may need to do to the property to make it rent-ready. Previously, all of those things were done by BD in advance. Once everything was executed and a rent rate was given, the BD person was not normally telling an owner what needs to be done to prep the property. Now all a sudden, the property manager is in the picture. They receive a new contract, now they're looking at the terms going, “This is not something I normally do, so now I have to go to [...] for this owner,” or whatever the special circumstances are that they now have to go figure out how to manage. “Gosh, I don't think we can get this rent rate.” So we made it to where they win together, they lose together. They're all watching the same metrics now as it pertains to that. They both have a collaboration and a bonus structure tied to it. Jason: Yeah, because one of the big challenge is if you get a closer on your team, they can close deals, and you put them in a position that it's simply about getting a deal on and not the longevity of that relationship with the client or the customer, they're going to delegate the deals. They’ll still close one and they'll move on to the next one. Those might not be a good fit for the business. They might not be a good fit for the team. They're less inclined to make sure that what the message that they're sharing is accurate. They're far less inclined to make sure that they have really good communication with the fulfillment side of the business, to know what can be done and that sort of thing, because their financial reward isn't connected to that. I love that and I love basically what you're saying. It sounds like you’ve created a much more gradual transition from one department to another. A lot of people view it as you're sales, and then there's this clear cut-off, and then boom, you're with other people. Jennifer: Owners don’t like that either. That's right and the client didn't like that. Yes, it is a more gradual approach now where there's an integration of the property manager pretty early on because otherwise, business development has established this great relationship in the beginning, promised the world, and in comes the property manager who's like, “I'm sorry, your property has been on the market now for 30 days, but we're going to have to lower the rate,” and that then sets the tone. Now, business development’s getting a phone call from said owner to go, “Wait a minute, you told me I could get this and now this person that is managing my property is telling me we can't get that,” and it makes everybody go backwards. It's a much slower process for turning it over so that the homeowner doesn't feel like it’s either a bait and switch, or that they're just left at the altar when business development moves on. Jason: I imagine other property managers that are listening or property management business owners listening to this, they could probably start to implement some of this even in their companies that are smaller, simply by getting the property manager involved earlier on with the person that's doing the sales. A lot of times, that's the business owner. But if they have managers, it might be wise for them to start transitioning as soon as possible to somebody else. I think what that also does is it frees up the BDM. There's a lot of work that the property manager can help facilitate in building that relationship and in onboarding the client. I think that helps the sales process. It helps transition them into just being a client and going into that delivery or fulfillment stage of business, which is going to free up time for the BDM to spend more time selling, I would imagine. Jennifer: Yes and we’ve created transparency, too. We’ve used technology besides doing consistent touch points. Right now, I had gotten back engaged in doing a lot of the BD. I'm generally here with most of the team. We meet regularly to talk about the CRM because everybody can see our customer care team takes telephone calls, puts the lead into the CRM, everybody gets alerted. They know on the rotation which property manager it's going to get assigned to. The property manager knows there's something coming down the pipeline. They can see whether it's me or anybody else doing the business development side of it, where they are in the transaction, has contact been made, where are we in the process. Once it gets to a certain point where the owner is ready for a contract, we will go ahead and then collaborate. “Let's look at the rental comps together. What else do you have available in the neighborhood currently that we're managing? Are we competing against something else?” So there's a collaboration. We also have transparency not only in the CRM and to know where we are with the leads, but we got to make it fun. This is a very thankless job, it's a very hard job, there's a lot of moving parts that everybody has to deal with every day. We have actually used technology that talks to our CRM which is an internal one that we have and then our property management software. It’s a tool called Klipfolio. It’s awesome because it makes graphs and things like that. If we say, “The target for Team Liberty is 10 new doors this month,” then every time something new comes in, they close it out in the CRM, and they mark it a closed deal, their graph changes. Both internal and external can see where they are in their target to go get as it pertains to new doors and retention. Those are two metrics that internal and external teams are both responsible for. It’s helping with retention. Everybody in the organization needs to help with retention and new growth. Those two metrics in particular are a collaboration between the two teams. Jason: Absolutely. It’s really important in business to focus on the entire life cycle and the lifetime value in extending that, rather than just on sales and closing deals. What ends up happening on companies that just focus on closing a deal on sales is that fulfillment on all of those companies tends to take a backseat, tends to start to suffer and struggle because their focus is just on getting revenue in. If the goal needs to be on revenue as a whole in aggregate, lifetime value, building up the longevity of these contracts, keeping clients on, the number one prospect that most businesses have is their existing customer. Jennifer: That's exactly right. Jason: We’re always stoked on getting new ones which is exciting, but we want to make sure that we keep one. There's no point in getting on a new deal if you lose one. Jennifer: Right. I think every property management firm across the country for the most part, several that I've talked to over the last few months, I know for us last year was our biggest one but for the last couple years, have experienced attrition due to sales. The sales market has come back. To your point, the internal customers that you already have, if somebody says, “Hey, when my tenant move out, I'd like to go ahead and sell the property,” why not try to retain that business and now send something out to all of your homeowner's letting them know, “Hey, we've got a property that another one of our clients is looking to sell. Is anybody interested in buying it?” I'm sort of talking about it at a 30,000 feet view. That's something that we went ahead and implemented where we’re periodically sending a letter out to all of our owners. It’s an email format but it's not just an email. It looks like it’s a little letter that goes out and just letting them know, “Hey, if you want to buy more, the market is good for that. If you're interested in selling, let us know because we have others that are interested in buying.” That's still a door safe. It’s another sale all over again. That’s something that's also very important. That’s why retention is something that had to not only be tracked internally. Business development was a little bit surprised when we were saying, “Look, you have to help with retention too,” but you do because internally, they may need some help in trying to convince person X as to why this particular property is good. The messaging has to be the same too about the firm. What is it we are selling? What is our firm [...]? What sets us apart? We need to have an aligned message on that. Jason: Yeah. The way in which I found that for my own business and for the clients that I coach in sales, one of the number one things that impacts with client and customer retention is just how they're sold in the beginning. It changes how you sell if you're selling for the long term. It changes how you build and create that relationship and if that relationship is built well in the beginning, the lifetime value and the chances that they're going to stay with you longer is far more likely than if you just get the win and close the deal, and move on. That changes how that happens. I've a couple of questions. One, what CRM do you guys use? Do you have a sales CRM? And then you have your customer portal and back office that you're keeping track of. Are those separate or are you trying to do everything in one system? Jennifer: No. We're probably going to move to one system. Today, have we actually use something that we actually created internally, it’s a software called KNACK. We developed that to be our business development tool but also attracts a bunch of our other metrics and things. We have multiple tabs in it. We actually changed the name to it. We call it Grand Central Station in our office here. It tracks our retention. It tracks all of the metrics that our property management teams and our business development team, those that they have to watch together. Then of course internally with respect to maintenance and work orders. Even internally, they're still doing sales. It’s a different kind of sales. Retention is sales. Keeping a homeowner happy is still sales. Tenant retention is sales. It’s just a different kind than the initial close of a deal. Even internally, the system is tracking lease renewals, it’s tracking tenant retention, it’s tracking how quickly we’re doing maintenance work orders because there is a direct correlation to how quickly even normal regular maintenance gets handled and tenants staying longer in the property. Maintenance is the number one reason tenants leave. We have a system that we developed internally. Zoho actually is another tool that we use but it works more with our emails right now. Interestingly enough, they have a ton of tools that can be used. I think we may be moving in that direction . But today, we use KNACK and then we use this Klipfolio. Klipfolio is what actually creates the fun stuff. It creates the pie charts and the graphs, so everybody can see. Jason: It’s more of a dashboard. Jennifer: Yeah. That’s exactly what it is. It’s our dashboard. It shows everybody where we’re at. Jason: You've got your own system for keeping track of some of your metrics and tracking data. You've got this thing that will take the data and print it in pretty charts so the team can see a scoreboard so they know whether they're winning or losing. Then you also have your back office, I would imagine, for accounting, keeping track of properties, and all of that that you do. I want people to be clear that you weren't just doing all of this in one magical unicorn system. Jennifer: No. It takes a lot to put it all together. Jason: The other thing I wanted to point out is, you talked about kind of gamifying this for your team. I think it's important for people listening to recognize that these two personality types that we’re really describing here that both need each other and help each other, that can work together, have very different motivators. I think as entrepreneurs, one of the big mistakes that we make a lot of times—I was talking with clients this morning about this—we’re very money driven. We’re very money-motivated. That’s a reward that we'd like to get. We mistakenly assume that everybody on our team are money-motivated, or economically- or financially-driven. It usually is not the case. Most people are the opposite but outside sales people, BDMs, they are usually the good ones, are money-motivated. They’re economically-driven. Financial rewards and bonuses could work for them but then you have this other side and they're not. I find that when people are not economically- or financially-motivated, they are recognition-motivated. They want to be recognized. They want to be seen winning. They want to feel like they've contributed. They want to feel like a winner. That’s a very different sort of situation. I think it's important as business owners to understand that if you're going to gamify this, to not just make it monetary rewards. I see it all the time. Somebody’s like, “We can start a reputation game in our company and we'll just give everybody a financial bonus,” and then they're like, “Why aren't our maintenance coordinators getting so excited about getting more money?” But they do get excited about getting recognized, doing a good job, and being called out in front of everybody as being awesome. I think it's important to recognize that you don't always have to throw money at people to get them to do things. Sometimes, that doesn’t work. Jennifer: It’s interesting, too. We do have some monetary bonus both for external and internal. Definitely, the sales folks, generally speaking, that is exactly what they're looking for. Internally, we have a few different ways that we do it. Just this year, we started our hall of fame. It’s our wall of stars. Each month, somebody is selected. For example in February, the person that stood out from the crowd in January was selected. Their picture goes up on the wall. It stays there. We have January through December up on the wall. Once their picture gets put up there, the picture stays up there. That's something that we implemented this year and that's exciting for them. We do PTO time. It's amazing recognizing somebody and it doesn’t cost your organization anything to say, “You have a half a day. You've earned four hours PTO time as a bonus,” or, “If you meet these metrics, for each metric that you meet, it’s one hour of PTO time.” It's unbelievable how far that goes. Little things, when we've had business development come into the office for those that can physically come in, we do what we call training trivia. We might be training on what our lease agreement says, or mention an agreement, or what our pitch is supposed to be like to our owners. What is our message about our firm. I'm telling you, I go to the dollar store and buy these boxes of candy. As people are getting it right, they're taking from this big bag. You can get $20-$30 worth of candy. That’s like 30 boxes of candy and they're so excited. It’s little stuff like that. Even from a training perspective, we try to make it fun because it can be a very grueling job. It’s mentally taxing. You're a middle man between the tenant and the owner and their money. That's not a really great place to be on any given day. You go home and a tenant or an owner is not mad at you, that's a great day. Jason: Yeah. Sometimes it's hurting cats, it's organized chaos, and lots of conflict resolution. Jennifer, this has been really fun, chatting about all of this. I think there's lots of ideas that’s been thrown around that are helpful. Any last thoughts on making this work between your inside team and your outside sales department? Especially for the property management businesses that are not at 1400 units, they're smaller, they're just getting started, and they've got a really small team, what do you think are some of the first things they should just start to try to tackle to make this work well? Jennifer: I would ask people specifically, “What do you think we should be saying to new clients?” Really, it’s all about communication. Just ask. Even your internal folks, while they may not volunteer the information because in their mind, they're one that’s in sales, but if you ask them, any of your staff, they will tell you. They all hear the stuff. That goes from your maintenance coordinator, to the folks that are answering your phone, to the owner of the company, whoever's doing business development. Just ask, they'll give you feedback. What we do is problem-solving. Property management is problem-solving. What problem do homeowners have or what are the concerns that they could have? Why are they hiring a property manager? All of the people on your team in some capacity are going to tell you what the most common things are that they hear are an issue from a tenant or from another homeowner, and that's what you need to go to tackle as a team. That’s what you need to make sure you know how to go solve together, but they'll tell you. It truly is just about asking them. That's something buy-in is huge. The buy-in on the message, the buy-in on how the process should look, the collaboration on there. Even we didn't learn that right away either. We would say, “Okay, I think it should work this way,” and, “Well, you've only been here two months, so you probably don't have an opinion on it yet,” but you know what? They do. It's good to ask for those ideas and feedback on that. They won't give it to you unless you ask for it. Jason: Yeah, that’s true. Especially on the inside type of personality types. I find a lot of times, they see a lot. They’re almost like the guides for humanity. They're so aware and they see so many things that we miss. Us highly driven, money-motivated people, and entrepreneurs that are crazy, and wild, and taking risks. They see so much. I meet regularly with my fulfillment team just to ask them, “What challenges are you dealing with? what are you noticing that is coming up as an issue?” A lot of times, we can solve it just by changing how we sell and making sure that we qualify prospects better, that we change what type of clients we’re bringing on because I want them to have a good experience, too. What that does is when you align sales with your fulfillment side, your fulfillment side starts to feel like you care about them. Jennifer: It’s important what they have to say. Jason: Some of our biggest mistakes were when I wasn’t listening to the fulfillment side, or wasn't listening to that team, and getting their feedback. They were frustrated because then they feel like they're not supported, “Why are you throwing these stuff at me and these people?” Jennifer: Exactly. We have to go manage the problems that you guys went and promised but nobody's asking us what we have to deal with on the backend. Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Our business is our best product. Jennifer: Yes. Jason: And when we look at our business as a product, we can see that there's flaws in every one of our businesses. There's always flaws in our product and we can approach it as a product and figure out how do we improve this? How do we make this better? How do we systemize this better? How do we reduce churn? How do we improve the communication? I love the idea of just asking what should we be saying or asking the fulfillment side of the team, like what things are coming up? And what are the big questions that we're having? Jennifer: It's almost always the simplest things that are overlooked. Jason: Yeah. Sometimes it's the simplest things that give you the biggest bang for your buck or the biggest increase in revenue. Sometimes it's really simple pivots that need to be made. Sometimes these really simple changes that they can see help improve the business. That's why even with tools and systems that we use like GatherKudos and stuff like that, getting feedback coming in from the business, or feedback from any channel, I think a lot of times people perceive feedback as something negative, but I see feedback as this gateway to everything that you really want. Jennifer: Absolutely. Even the stuff that comes in that's good, you could still be looking at to do better. A feedback is critical because how do you fix what you don't know? If you're not asking for it, you're not going to get it. All of a sudden, you've got somebody that wants to terminate with you or an employee that doesn't want to be here anymore but nobody ever asked for feedback. Now all of a sudden it's laying in your lap and you're like, “Gosh, I could have fixed that had I known,” but now it's too late. Jason: The scariest place to be as an entrepreneur is to be completely blindsided with something you didn't see because you are the emperor with no clothes. Jennifer: That's a great point. Jason: Nobody should be building a team around them that everybody feels like they have to say yes to. Jennifer: That's right. Jason: You are the emperor with no clothes. Jennifer: That’s right. You want the ideas. You want the feedback for sure. Like it or not, you want it. Jason: Great. Jennifer, this has been super fun. I really enjoyed having you on the show. It’s always fun to chat with you. How can people connect with you if they're interested connecting with you or how should people get in touch with you if they want to be able to do that? Jennifer: My email address is just jennifer@parkaveproperties.com or you can just go to Park Avenue’s website parkaveproperties.com and all my info’s on there. My cell number’s on there, my email, and I'm not afraid to get my cell number out so people are welcome to reach out to me. You can go to NARPM. I'm on there, too. Jason: Awesome. Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on the show. Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. I enjoyed it. Thanks Jason. Jason: You bet. That was super fun, hanging out with Jennifer. For those of you listening, if you enjoy this episode, we’d really appreciate it if you are listening on iTunes, to make sure and subscribe to iTunes podcast and make sure that you leave us some feedback. We really appreciate your real feedback on iTunes. It helps us get awareness and makes it worth it doing these shows. Be sure to join our free community, the DoorGrowClub Facebook group. You can get to that by going to doorgrowclub.com. If it's been a little while since you've gotten some leads on your website, or you feel like your website maybe is pretty but isn't really doing its job, or maybe it's actually just ugly and not doing its job, make sure to go test it out by going to doorgrow.com/quiz. Take our DoorGrow score quiz and test your website. It’s going to show you how effective your website really is at converting and making money. It’ll give you a letter grade. There’s a few resources for you. If you're struggling to grow your property management business, you feel like things aren't working like SEO, pay-per-click, content marketing, social media marketing, you're finding all of those cold lead marketing channels less effective, and your number one source of growth still is word-of-mouth, we can make that better. Reach out to DoorGrow and you can check us out at doorgrow.com. Thanks everybody for tuning in. until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social direct, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve the biggest challenge, getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. 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Order our new book today and join the marriage after God movement. https://marriageaftergod.com Here is a quote from the Marriage After God book. "Just as God has led us on a journey with specific work to do, your marriage is also on a journey toward the extraordinary work God has prepared for only the two of you to do." This chapter included part of our story and so today we want to highlight a piece of our story. In the second year of our marriage when things were really tough, we moved to Merritt Island Florida, where we met Nathan and Daisy Walter...except when we met them they were dating and then got engaged. *Dear Lord, Thank you for your creativity in how you made each and every one of us. Lord, you put so much thought and care into how you made us. Thank you for the resources you have given to our marriage and the unique talents and gifts that you have blessed us with. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we would not only desire to use all of the tools we have, but also pursue what you want us to do with them. We pray you would show us how you would like us to invest what we have so that we can grow your kingdom in this world. help us to encourage each other and affirm each other in how we use the gifts talents experiences testimony and resources that you’ve given to us. we pray that your name would be magnified as we remain obedient to all that you’ve called us to do. we pray that our marriages would represent and reflect your divine love story. May we be ambassadors of your love to this hurting world. inspire us to be creative in the ways that we share about you and share about the faith we have in you. thank you for the gift of life and for salvation. In Jesus’ name, amen!* READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part eight of the Marriage after God series, and we're gonna be talking with Nathan and Daisy Walter about the impact we have in this world. Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] So we just want to first of all, just say thank you for everyone who's been following along in this series. We hope that it's been inspiring you and impacting your lives. [Aaron] You know, we're at the halfway point which is exciting. Yeah, yeah. Super awesome, but before we move on in this episode today, we just want to ask you guys to leave a review, this is just one way that you guys can help support the podcast by spreading the podcast. When you leave a review, it helps other people find the Marriage After God podcast. And it's super simple, all you have to do is scroll to the bottom of the app, leave a star rating review or a comment review, and Aaron and I really appreciate it. [Aaron] And also the reason we're doing this podcast in the first place, the entire podcast, and this series, this 16-part series, is because we wrote a book called Marriage After God, and you can get it today, and we'd love for you to get that, that's one of the best ways you can support this podcast. And also to support your marriage and to support the marriages around you, and just go to shop.marriageafterGod.com, and pick up a copy of our new book. We wrote this book for you guys. [Jennifer] So today, we have good friends of ours, Nathan and Daisy Walter, hi guys. Hey how are you doing? Hello. [Jennifer] Thanks for being with us today. [Aaron] We're so excited to have you guys on. [Nathan] We're excited to be here. [Daisy] It's good to be here. [Aaron] Awesome, so why don't you, cause a lot of people know us and our online presence, but they don't know all the people we know. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And so that's one of the reasons why we wanted to do all these interviews, is to let people know all the people that have helped shape who we are today, that God used in our lives, and you guys are one of those couples in our life. We've known you guys for a very long time. Why don't you let everyone that's listening know who you are, your children, what you guys do, and how we know you? [Nathan] Right, well my name is Nathan Walter, and this is my wife. [Daisy] Daisy. [Nathan] And we have three kids It took me a second. Flynn, who's five, Aurora who is [Nathan And Daisy] Two. [Daisy] And Ivy's nine months. [Nathan] Nine months goes by fast. We are youth pastors at a church in Florida, and we also have a worship band called the Quiet Science. So, between all that, we stay pretty busy. [Daisy] Yeah, stay pretty busy. [Aaron] With half of that, you're busy. [Daisy] Yeah, and just the kids alone. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] So if anyone's familiar with the book launch surrounding the Unveiled Wife and our marriage story there, Daisy and Nathan are the ones that wrote that worship song that we wanted to launch with that book, called "The Unveiled" and it's available on YouTube if you guys want to check it out. [Aaron] It actually still gets tons of views. [Jennifer] I love that song. [Aaron] Yeah, people say it's like their favorite worship song. [Jennifer] You guys are so talented. I remember we had already been hanging out in our friendship for quite awhile, and we were hanging out at Daisy's parent's house when you guys had some instruments out, and you started kinda just fiddling around with them, and we didn't realize that you guys were like-- [Aaron] I know we had no clue you were-- [Jennifer] Really creative, you had a band. [Aaron] It was like months of knowing you guys. And you guys are like, you guys start playing and singing in the living room, we're like, what's happening right now? [Nathan] Awkward. [Daisy] I'm like, oh my God, why did we do that? [Aaron] Well, I think you guys were like practicing or something, [Daisy] Probably. [Aaron] Maybe you were going to be giving a show and we had no clue that you guys were part of a band. Anyways, we, go ahead. [Daisy] Oh, no, it's just like, oh by the way, we have a show. [Aaron] Yeah. But, how long has it been, we've known them? We met them in pretty much the first year that we were married, so 12 years now we've known you guys. [Daisy] Yeah. [Aaron] And you guys weren't married yet back then, you guys were dating when we met you. [Nathan] No. [Aaron] And then we got to go to your wedding. And even though we live on literally opposites of the country, probably the farthest distance we can be from each other. We still tend to keep in touch. [Daisy] Pick up where we left off. [Aaron] And pick up where we left off. That's one of the things we just love about you guys, is you guys are always changing in the right direction, you're always growing closer to God. But you're always the same to us. Which is cool cause we're growing with you, so. Why don't we get into the icebreaker question? [Jennifer] Yeah, so, this is an interesting one. If you could have dinner with anyone from the Bible who would it be and why? And it can't be Jesus. Cause we know that's a given. [Daisy] Um, I would say Isaiah. I know that's probably, I don't know. It's my favorite book and I just think, I don't know, he just seems like a wise old soul. And that's like, I don't know, that's my, thing. In every cast, every movie, my favorite character is the wise character. Like Gandalf. Like, I need wisdom, help me out! But I just-- [Jennifer] It makes for great conversation. [Daisy] It does! I just, I don't know, I feel like, whenever something amazing hits me, I'm always like, "Oh my gosh, of course, "I'm reading Isaiah." Not that the rest of the Bible isn't amazing, but I just, I love Isaiah, I would love to meet him. Well, I will meet him, but. [Nathan] Yeah, we will meet him. [Daisy] We will. [Jennifer] Okay, what about you, Nathan? [Nathan] You know, my first answer was gonna be Paul, but I feel like that's really, um, just because he wrote a lot of letters about the church, and I would want to get his opinion about the church today and get all fired up with him. But I also, I don't know, I didn't want to be like, super, well never mind I'm not gonna do two. I was just gonna do two. I guess, just I was gonna say Paul or an Old Testament prophet, cause the thing I like about the Old Testament prophets or that I respect, is that they were alone. They were like completely alone declaring the Word of the Lord, and I know Paul was, it just seems like they were, there were so many people on Mission, you know, I just respect the Old Testament prophets having to do it by themselves with nothing but the Word of the Lord, and it's like, how did you guys do it? How did you stay strong? [Aaron] Especially back then, when there was no church yet, it was God telling these men, like, "Hey, go speak this." And they're like, "Wait, they're gonna kill me "if I do that." [Daisy] Yeah, yeah. [Nathan] And my Old Testament prophet would have been Elijah, so. I know I didn't say it, but. [Aaron] Oh there you go. [Jennifer] So you picked two. [Daisy] Yeah he did. [Aaron] Elijah did have some pretty rad things he did. [Daisy] Yeah. [Jennifer] Great, well thanks for playing that little game with us. It always helps to let other people know a little bit more about who you guys are. [Nathan] And you can catch people who don't know the Bible. Here's a quote-I know, they're like, what person is that? So, here's a quote from chapter eight of our book. And then we'll get into the topic. "Just as God has led us on a journey "with specific work to do, "your marriage is also on a journey "toward the extraordinary work "God has prepared for only the two of you to do." So the idea of this chapter is just talking about the uniqueness of how God created all of our marriages and how He's given us unique talents and gifts and resources. And the specific purpose of this chapter is to show kind of that journey that Jennifer and I have been on and how He's uniquely gifted us, and all the different experiences, especially our relationship with you. You know, not everyone has this kind of relationship with you, and not everyone has the kind of relationships, everyone has different ones, and different resources and different experiences. And then toward the end of it we explain, but the point is, this is our marriage. It's not yours. And you, you and Daisy, have your own story, your own unique talents, gifts, resources, your own tool belt is what we call it. And God desires all of us, each one of us, to use what He's given us for His purposes, for His glory. And that we don't sit back and say, "Well, since I don't have Aaron and Jennifer's marriage "and their experiences and their education, "and their talents, then I must not be usable." Or, "Since I don't have this person over here "and what they've gone through and what they have, "I'm not usable." The truth is, that God's given us all-- [Jennifer] We're all one body. [Aaron] Yeah, unique gifts, talents, resources, for the sake of the body, and for what the body's doing. What God's doing in this world. So, that's the purpose of this chapter, but today we get to chat with you guys to talk about the influence that you guys had in our story, and just to talk about where you guys are at and how we met, and so we're just gonna have some fun with that, and we hope that and pray that everyone listening gets just blessed by this conversation, and gets to also think about what God's doing through their marriage and in their marriage right now. [Jennifer] So one of the things that we mentioned that's a part of our tool belt is relationships, and so we thought it would be cool to kind of dive into our relationship, with you guys, and just kind of go back to the beginning, because we met you guys at a time when, that first year of marriage was really difficult for us. And we didn't have a lot of relationships. But we were going to the same church, and you guys and your families loved on us, in a time that we really, really needed it. That time was impactful for us because even though we were enduring hardship, in our marriage, and we weren't really talking about it, we still were able to find ways to experience friendship together, with each other, and with you guys, and so I wanted to highlight that and how that impact is still impacting us in our relationships today. And has really impacted the ministry that everyone gets to benefit from this Marriage After God ministry. So Daisy and Nathan, what are some ways that we have had fun together? [Nathan] Honestly, when I was thinking about that, there's so many things that I think we did and they were all pretty mundane. And I think-- [Aaron] Yeah, yeah. [Nathan] I think that's what makes good friendships, is like, so many of our memories, I think, are sitting around on the back porch, playing some game Aaron had us play. Made up. Like, is it... And we were able to have fun no matter what we did, and I think that's kind of, not the key to good friendship, but I think it's evidence of good friendship, because there's so many people you're around where you gotta fill the silence, or you feel like you're entertaining, or you... And I think from the very beginning, we were always able to just, no matter what we were doing, we were having fun. So-- [Aaron] I like that. I think what you just said right there, is evidence of good, close relationship is not feeling like it's a one-sided thing. Cause that's essentially what entertaining is, you're entertaining a guest versus you're spending time with a, with a friend. Just being in the presence. Yeah. Being in the presence of. Daisy, what are some of the things that you remember that you guys, that we had fun with? [Daisy] I remember going to, Charles and Casey's wedding, and you guys like, doing the lift, remember when you were dancing? [Aaron] The lift? [Daisy] Yeah! The Dirty Dancing lift? And you're like, "Come on, Jen, run toward me, run toward me!" She was like, "I don't want to!" And you made her do it. [Aaron] I don't remember this at all! [Jennifer] I don't remember it working very well. [Nathan] It was the Dirty Dancing lift. [Daisy] It was the Dirty Dancing lift, and remember their wedding was like, on the beach, that was the most fun wedding. And toward the end you're like, "Come on, come on, run, run toward me!" You did it in front of everybody on the dance floor. [Jennifer] How embarrassing. [Aaron] I forgot how weird we are. Yeah, and for everyone-- Of course, everyone was cheering. [Nathan] Yeah, I think all the girls were jealous, were like, "Why don't you do that with me?" That's so romantic of you! [Jennifer] What's funny about this story is that, Aaron and I, we just don't like dancing, like it's a hard thing for us. So that's really funny. [Aaron] I think we did most of the dancing around Daisy and Nathan. You guys drew the dancing out of us. So when I think about our relationship, I remember, we didn't initiate it. I don't remember us going to you guys, I actually remember us feeling pretty, not lonely, but just kind of there, at the church at the time. We just kind of, working with that mission organization. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And I remember just, we would go on Sundays, and we had some people we knew and we'd say hi, and just did the normal Sunday thing. But I remember one Sunday, we were leaving church and walking out to the parking lot, and a car just pulls up to us. And invites us to lunch. And it's your mom and dad, Daisy. They're just like, "Hey you guys wanna go to lunch with us?" [Jennifer] I remember we went to Red Lobster, and back then Aaron and I could not afford that, and it was like, heaven. [Aaron] It was such a treat. That you guys just did that. Do you remember, were you a part of that, like did you know us before that moment? And you know, your parents driving up and inviting us, what was happening in that kind of season? [Nathan] I don't know, I think, we were kind of the same way. Well, Daisy had gone to that church for a long time, but I think, um, we didn't have any friends that were couples. And I think that Daisy's parents were really like, "Hey there's this couple that we're gonna invite to lunch." And we're pretty shy and we don't do that kind of stuff, so it was almost like a, like they set us up Like you're matchmaking us. on a date or something. [Aaron] It was a blind double date, I love that. [Jennifer] It worked. [Nathan] Yeah, and I just remember from that moment on, we hung out every day that we could. [Daisy] Yeah, like every day. I feel like we hung out every single day. [Jennifer] I remember, we went to lunch that day, and then we went back to your parents' house, and we stayed there until like midnight, I think. [Daisy] Yeah, I remember that. [Jennifer] It was an all day thing. [Aaron] Didn't we go swimming? We swam a lot. A lot. [Daisy] Yeah, you always wanted them to turn on the jacuzzi. What I love about that. Yeah, the hot tub, yeah. [Nathan] That was Daisy's original answer, when it was like, "What did we do a lot?" Daisy was gonna be like, "The hot tub, "I think we were in the hot tub." [Daisy] Aaron was always like, "So, jacuzzi anybody?" And I'm like, "Uh, sure." [Aaron] It was, it was really great. And I think, so there's a couple things that were happening, cause Jennifer and I, and you guys didn't realize this, your parents didn't even know, you know, Jennifer and I were going through spiritual and just emotional turmoil in our marriage. But I think a couple things happened, we, I want to use the word used, we used our relationship with you guys to help us cope with where we were at. Which is, I think, a thing that we're called to do, we're supposed to lean on each other in the body of Christ, and rely on those relationships for strength. You know, when the Bible tells us to bear one another's burdens, whether you guys knew it or not, you guys were bearing burdens with us, that we would come and just, those many nights, many, many nights, you're right cause we spent, probably couple, three, four, five days a week with you guys sometimes. [Jennifer] Thank you for being so willing-- [Aaron] Yeah, thank you for being there with us. To build that friendship. [Nathan] It was fun. [Daisy] Oh, we were having so much fun. [Aaron] Yeah, and just having fun with you guys, and chatting with you guys, and I remember we had lots of spiritual conversations, but, like you said, even the mundane things were, it was safety for us. And it kept us from spiraling into oblivion in our marriage, alone, because we had people with us. It made the dark times, the hard times for us bearable. And again, you guys didn't even really know, that was our fault for not really sharing with you guys where we were at. But what I love is that, you were saying that you guys didn't have those close relationships either, and how the Lord orchestrates like, "Hey, here's two of my, two couples, four of my children, "that I'm gonna bring together and use them "in each others' lives," whether we know it or not. You know, just because we're walking as Christians with each other. Um, so, why is friendship in marriage so important? Like, I'm bringing all this stuff up but I'm trying, I want to draw this out for the people listening. Okay, so why are friendships in marriage so important, first, and secondly, why was it so important to you guys? [Nathan] I think that I value, our friendship more now that I don't get to see you guys all that often. Because, I think the older you get the more you realize how rare it is, that you have friendships with other couples that, both of them have a heart after God and a heart for you. And it's encouraging to know that, those relationships can exist, and that we can perhaps have other couple friends like that. I mean, we only have like two or three couple friends like that, that are all throughout the United States. But it's kind of nice to know, these are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and God has them elsewhere right now, but we're all on Mission. And even though it feels like we're apart, we're on Mission together for the same thing, for the same Kingdom. And even though we don't get to see them a lot now, we'll get to see them later, when the mission is complete. And I think that when things get rough, especially in terms of friendships with other couples, we always have that reminder of like, we have another, there are other friendships out there that we will get to see again, and they go through these same struggles as we are on Mission for the Kingdom of God, you know? God just has us different places on Mission, and it's nice to know that other people, there are others out there that are like you, that are on it. It's just encouraging, even, even without getting encouragement from people talking to you, just to know that you're out there doing it is, I don't know, it just gives you hope and encouragement. [Aaron] So having that, just the experience that we had over those, you know, year and a half, two years, of building our friendship, what you're saying is, has given you, a standard to look forward to, in relationship with other believers, and an excitement for that. Do you feel like that's, so that standard, that way of walking with other Christian couples, other believers, has inspired you and Daisy to be those kinds of friends to others? Whether or not they can fulfill the other side of it? Like do you feel like you guys, you're like, "Oh this is what it looks like, "this is how we're gonna attempt to walk "with other Christians?" [Nathan] Yeah, definitely. I think that having a blueprint for what a godly friendship in marriage looks like is certainly helpful when you are creating new friendships with other Christians. I think it's helpful to have a blueprint of what that looks like. [Jennifer] That's really good. And can you explain a little bit about your and Daisy's friendship in marriage? Because I feel like, we've been talking about friendship as a couple with other couples, but why is friendship within marriage so important? And how do you guys cultivate that? [Nathan] It's funny, we've had to think about that a lot lately as we, as we lead a youth group and we're talking to kids who are wondering about future relationship and relationships that they're in, and as we model a godly relationship for them. I think most of our strong bond comes from being in ministry together and trying to inspire these kids. And a lot of the kids mention, often, at school, like for the kids that are really chasing after God, they mention the loneliness. How lonely it is. And we just kind of, as we counsel them, have come to realize, and Daisy's actually the one who counseled them on this, who was like, "That's why it's so important who you marry. "That you marry a man of God or a woman of God, "because often the person you're with, "is hidden, possibly the only one there with you, "walking after Christ." And as she was telling me that, I was reading how Jesus sent out the disciples, and he sent them out two-by-two. And it was, in a duo, was the word. And often, I feel like, in marriage, we are the two-by-two. We are the ones Huh. I like that. standing together. We are the ones that encourage each other. We are the ones who pick each other up. When I'm down, she's the one who pulls out, and she doesn't just encourage me regularly, she pulls out the Bible, and she's like, "Well, you remember Joseph, when he was in prison..." You know what I mean, and just starts preaching at you. And it's not just regular encouragement, it's the word from God, coming from my wife. And like, you can't, it's hard to even survive without that. It is so essential, I think, cause I just look at it like that. We're going out two-by-two, and she is the person God has put me with, for our ministry to go out into the world. She's my encouragement, but she encourages me through the Word. And I just think it's vital. [Aaron] I love that. And the two-by-two, the friendship aspect of knowing, like, you can't be friend with the world and friend with God, you can't be, it's hard to have an unequally yoked relationship where one's a believer, one's not a believer. Which is why the encouragement should always be, to singles, like, "No, no, you chase after, "you marry a believer. "Someone who loves God." And uh, sorry, I love that, and Daisy it's really awesome that you, you help Nathan like that, where you preach the word of God to him. Cause like, what better friend than someone that's gonna say, "No, actually, this is what the Bible says, "remember it. "Don't forget, Nathan." Right. [Aaron] And vice versa. [Daisy] Well, I think, I think we do that. It's cool though, I think that we do that for each other. Cause it's like, I don't know. I think Nathan can tend to be more melancholy than I am, but like, I feel like there's always a balance. When I'm in that place where I'm like, "Oh, I don't know." And it's like, Nathan does that for me, and it's just cool cause it's like, I don't know, it's like I've got his back and I know that he's got my back, and I think that that's really important, that I know that he's also listening to God and being moved by the Spirit. Like I can trust, I can trust him in that way. [Nathan] Yeah, I think it's important, like what we always do, there's no encouragement. People can tell me like, worldly encouragement, and it can make me feel good for a second. But I think with a spouse and someone walking through life with you that knows you well, we're just giving each other like, spiritual smacks in the face, almost. Where it's like, "You stop, you get up! "It says he stand on the Word "of the Lord and God has said this "and that's what we will trust in! "You stop hanging your head, you look up!" You know what I mean? "Where does your help come from?" And you just kind of like, you know what I mean? [Daisy] I don't say it like that! [Nathan] But it's like. [Aaron] That's how Nathan hears it, though, Daisy. Yeah, yeah. [Nathan] It's just kind of like this inspiring, you know, don't fall into that, that's lies. This is the truth. And that's what we stand on. [Daisy] Yeah, and well, the person that you marry, I think this is why, this is what we're always really trying to impart to the kids is like, the person that you're dating and the person that you marry, they have the strongest voice in your life. They'll end up replacing your friends, your parents, not like in your relationships, but as far as having the strongest voice in your life. So it is important to not just you know, be attracted to somebody, cause I think, you know, that's easier. [Aaron] It is important, but not as important, yeah. [Daisy] It's not, you know? You have to, you know, you have to have other things. And I think being friends with the person that you're with and someone that you can trust, when you marry them, they'll have the strongest voice in your life. And so do you want someone that's also following Christ, to have the strongest voice in your life? And hopefully the answer is yes for them. [Jennifer] It is for us! [Aaron] That's such a good, it's such a good encouragement. So taking, not just who you marry, right? But most people are listening, are hopefully already married. We have some singles that listen. But, the other side of this is those voices, right? Going back to friendships outside of the marriage, those people have voices too. There's a scripture that says, "Bad company corrupts good morals." And the principle of that is like, who you spend the most time with is going to have the loudest voice in your life. So like, your spouse is the loudest voice, right? And then, you know, the biggest influence. And then your relationships that you spend the most time with outside of that. And that's kind of what I want to encourage everyone that's listening, the importance of aligning your lives, your relationships, with other believers who are walking the same direction, are chasing the same things, who believe the same words that you believe, you know, in the Word of God, in the Bible, and aren't trying to, "Oh, don't worry about that. "Oh, that's not a big deal. "Oh, you wanna go do something else?' Not trying to take you somewhere else, but are trying to keep you there. And I think that principle that you have in marriage should just go straight out, too, and the Bible teaches that. To not be unequally yoked, not just in marriage, but in our relationships. [Daisy] Yeah, oh yeah. [Aaron] It says, "What fellowship does light "have with darkness?" Doesn't mean we can't have friends or relationships with unbelievers. But we can't have fellowship with them. And what you were talking about in the beginning of, you know, we had fellowship with you guys. The ability to just sit and be still with you guys, and laugh, and have jokes, and have fun, and eat meals, and talk about hard things and deep things with you guys, was fellowship. And we've, like you've said, that template, we've taken that template forever. Like all of our relationships, we look at it, and we, we say, "Okay, we're gonna walk with these people "the way we've walked with you guys." But actually more so because we weren't as open with you guys as we should have been. We were learning back then. And I believe we actually would've had a, probably, even a deeper relationship, if we had been more honest back then, but we didn't know how to be. We hadn't been taught that. We hadn't experienced what that looked like until later on in our story. Which again, happened around friends, of the same nature. So you know, it happened in those same environments that we had with you guys. But I want to ask you guys, speaking of the big picture, speaking of what God's doing in our lives, through our lives, in this world, for His Kingdom, we talked about how we didn't know what God might have been doing. But looking back, we look at the relationship we have with you guys and God leading us into that relationship, and the impact that you guys have had, not only on our story, but on the ministry that God's used us in, has been immense. You know, we talk about how we probably wouldn't be here today, together, if it wasn't for you guys. [Jennifer] Yeah, I feel like hanging out with you guys gave us a reprieve from the turmoil that we were experiencing intimately in our relationship. So it was like this hopefulness of, well, we still get to hang out with our friends and we still get to do these fun things together, so it gave us this breath of fresh air and hopefulness for the future. [Aaron] Yeah, and I don't know if you guys realize that. Have you guys realized that kind of impact? I know it wasn't intentional, necessarily, but looking back, do you see like, wow, God used us in the Smiths' life? [Nathan] No. [Daisy] No. [Aaron] Awesome, okay. [Nathan] I mean, honestly, when I look back, when I know now what I know about the struggles you were going through, mostly I just feel bad. Like I wasn't a good friend for not noticing and that I missed an opportunity. [Daisy] Yeah. [Nathan] You just feel kinda, I don't know, maybe foolish, like I wasn't listening to God. Or like, "Man, God, like, "they were right there going through this stuff "and I didn't even know, "like how could I not have known?" But honestly, that has made me try to be more aware. You know? I'm like, Awesome. [Nathan] "Man, are these people going through stuff I don't know?" Cause I don't wanna, I don't wanna miss that again, you know? [Aaron] Yeah. [Nathan] I'm glad the story ended up well, where God was able to move and use it. But like, what if, I think like, what if God placed us there to save something, and what if it broke down later? And we missed our opportunity to be the hands of God? [Jennifer] I appreciate you sharing that. [Nathan] But it makes me, it's definitely something that I think we've added to our blueprint of what a Godly relationship looks like. Is like, watching out for them. Watching out for your friends. Watching for signs that they might not wanna talk about or face but I mean, I think that's what Christians do. We're supposed to hold each other accountable, encourage each other, and sometimes, everyone hides stuff and doesn't wanna be honest and talk about issues, but that's what God's called us to do. [Aaron] You have to be light in each others' lives. [Nathan] Yeah. And so I think we've just kinda added that to the blueprint of what we wanna do for future friends. [Jennifer] I love that you shared that. And I just wanna point out a couple things. The first being that, even though you didn't know back then, you guys still were walking faithfully and were obedient to what you knew, which is how to be a righteous person, and how to encourage one another. And that's what you guys did for us. So I think the encouragement here, for those listening is, even if we don't know the details of what other people are going through, and we still walk in obedience, we still have an impact. And I think that's really awesome. [Aaron] And I was also, I was thinking, of the Scripture, when Paul's talking about, "One waters, one plants, "but it's the Lord who brings the increase," and I just want to encourage you guys that, and those listening that, even though you didn't know, it's possible that, well we're all in a place where we didn't know certain things, but our maturity levels as Christians, you guys, weren't married yet until later. [Daisy] Right. [Aaron] And so, being faithful where God has you, with the knowledge that you do have, yeah you probably back then, could have asked us some questions, right? But you didn't know to, right? But that doesn't mean you weren't faithful. It doesn't mean you didn't do what you were called to do. You might have been naturally walking in that relationship with us, but it was out of a love for Christ in how you guys just normally live, and how you interacted with us. And I just want to encourage you that, you guys watered us. Whether you knew it or not, you may not have been the one planting, and I think you partly were planting in us, too, but the Lord's the one that brought the increase in our story. That's none of our responsibilities to bring the increase. God wants us to be faithful with either the planting or the watering or the both. And so, those listening, recognizing that we are to be faithful in our walks with Christ, and the knowledge that we have of Him, and to walk with other believers the way the Bible tells us to. Regardless if we have all the answers, regardless of if we know how the story's gonna turn out, whether we have all the puzzle pieces in the right spot, He just wants us to be faithful in those relationships the way He wants us to be. And what happens is God brings the increase. You know. And the encouragement, also, to people who are trying to witness and encourage people that aren't followers of Christ yet. Who don't, who aren't regenerated in the Spirit, who haven't accepted the Gospel, to be faithful in who we are as Christians, in the message that we've been given, and knowing that God's gonna do with that seed and the watering what He wants to do with it. And trusting that, and just continually being faithful in that, so. I just want to encourage you guys that, whether you knew it or not, you were watering and planting in us, seeds of faithfulness, of friendship, of truth, encouragement, and all of those things, God has used in our life. And so, I love that God has also used our relationship to show you how you guys can more intentional in your future relationships, and I'm sure you have been. [Daisy and Nathan] Yeah. [Aaron] Which is something God wants us to be, and so I think that's just wonderful. [Jennifer] Yeah, that was gonna be my other point. When you were talking about how it's made you more vigilant to ask those bigger questions, and to have eyes to really see and discern what people are going through, and I think that also is an encouragement and testament for those listening that we can be, you know, people who pursue intimate relationships with other believers in this way and be willing to ask the bigger, harder questions, for their sake and for ours, so that we can exhort one another. [Daisy and Nathan] Mmhmm. [Nathan] Yeah. [Aaron] So I want to just ask you guys, we're talking about friendship and relationship and whether or not you knew God was using you doesn't really matter, because God was. And when we're faithful to God and just walk with Him, and-- [Daisy] Say yes to Him. [Aaron] Say yes to Him, and we pursue the things He loves and wants, He uses it. And He is faithful in that way. But in your own personal lives, you guys have been given a tool belt as well, and you have gifts and talents and resources and relationships and things that God's given to you and wants you to invest for His purposes. How do you guys encourage each other to use the gifts that you have? In your marriage and to those outside your marriage? [Nathan] Just in the positions that we're in, I think a lot of the things that we have in common, that God uses most in us, is our musical abilities. And we love worship. And our love for youth and their struggle that they go through. And I think that, honestly, I think that I love Daisy the most when I'm watching her worship, or watching her counsel a young girl. I don't want to sound weird, but it's like, really attractive to see her using her gifts for God's glory. And God's given me similar gifts. [Aaron] That's awesome. [Nathan] That's how God kind of pairs us, I think. You know, like, we have passions for the same thing, and I think I love her most when I'm watching her use it or when she'd come home and she's like, "Oh, this girl's talking to me about this, "and I said this," And when I hear her answers, you're just like, "Oh man, it is so, man God just used you, "and what wisdom!" And you have to encourage each other in that, too, because usually after I say something or she says something or counsels someone, we come back and we're like, "This is what I said! "Was that okay?" You know, and it's nice to have someone be like, "Yes, no, that was spot-on, that was so good what you said. "I mean, that's what I'm gonna say, "if I'm ever asked that question." You know, and in a ministry, sometimes you feel the weight of every word that you say. This person needs hope in this moment, and they've come to me and I'm the person who has to give it to them. I am God in their, I am the person God can use right now, oh God, please, like this is important. So it's really nice to have someone to check with. Or be like, "Man, did I get that right?" And kind of, check your wisdom. And it's so nice to have someone who's there with you in the trenches being like, "Oh man, no, that was God, that was awesome." [Daisy] I feel the same way, I just feel like it's, I don't know, you have so much wisdom. I'm like, "This kid wants to talk to me, "I need you to be there, so you can say smart things!" Not like, not that I'm not smart, I don't know, I just feel like sometimes I get tongue-tied, and I'm just like, "Okay, Nathan, you gotta do this for us, "represent us both." I don't know. [Aaron] You guys are answering exactly what I was thinking. [Nathan] But that's also like, why it's important that I encourage her. Because often, she'll say things that I wouldn't have thought of, like sometimes the right intelligent answer isn't what a person needs to hear. They need to hear a loving answer. Sometimes they just need an open ear. And I see so many times when people say, "Oh I didn't have the right answer," and then I'll just like, "Maybe God just wanted you to listen in that moment." And so, I think what Daisy says is awesome. And so I like, encourage her, be like, "No, you can do it, you are capable. "When you say stuff, I'm like, 'Man, that was awesome! "'How'd she come up with that?'" I just think it's nice to be reminded by the person you care about the most, that you know, God is using you and that you're on track. [Jennifer] I think that's so powerful. And to tie it back into what you guys were talking about earlier, about voices, and you know, the impact that we have in each other's lives, like you guys are ministering to young kids, and as a couple, your voice is so powerful and so impactful, and when you go back to, you know, conversations of what you guys have been through, or experienced with these children, you're refining each other, and you're building one another up, you're encouraging one another, you're gleaning from each other the wisdom that you're each sharing, and you're cultivating that voice that you're sharing with the world. And I love that, and the impact is unfathomable, like you'll never know the extent, the impact you're actually having in each individual life that you guys are ministering to. And I think that's true for every marriage after God. And that encourages me. [Aaron] Which is why we need to be excited about what God's doing in us, faithful about it, and just like, you know, you brought up the Old Testament prophets. The Bible tells us that, in Hebrews, none of them got to see what they were told they were gonna see. They were looking forward to what we get now. And so this idea that we might not ever see how God is fully moving, because this picture He's building is huge. But as long as we're excited about it, we're encouraging each other, we're moving forward, we're faithful in the things He's given us, and investing for Him. God's gonna do what his purposes are in this world, and we get to be used sometimes, which is awesome. And so, praise God for what He's doing in you guys, and through you guys, and we praise God all the time for, just our relationship with you, and what it means to us. And so our prayer is that, the couples listening will be able to experience close biblical friendships and how that can impact the world for God's Kingdom, how it can impact their marriages. [Jennifer] I would like to encourage them listening, everyone, all of us listening, to remember that we don't have to sit around and wait for God to give us friendships, but that we have an obligation to be the friends that He has called us to be in other people's lives, and we can start doing that today. [Aaron] Or we can wait for our parents to set us up Set us up. On a double friendship date. Well let us take from your parents' advice and let's do this for our kids. Set them up on double friendship dates. [Jennifer] You know, at the end of every episode throughout this series, we've asked each couple to share this last question, and so we're gonna ask you guys as well, it's, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Nathan] I think a marriage after God, I think starts with each individual seeking after God with all their heart. And then, then when you come together, and to each of you individually, God comes first, then when you come together in marriage, everything you do is for His glory, and is about Him and about furthering His Kingdom. And the evidence is shown in your children, in the way you spend your time with them, and the things you say to them. And the way you encourage them, and the way you build them up, and the way you handle their mistakes. It's evidenced by, how you encourage one another, where your encouragement comes from, are you just encouraging someone like, "No, you're the best!" Or are you like, giving them biblical encouragement? Which is where the real strength is. And like, and it's evidenced by sharing each other, like "Oh this is what I read in the Scripture today." Like you can amass so much more biblical knowledge if you have two people reading the Bible and then sharing with each other what God showed. [Aaron] That's awesome. [Nathan] Or even like, reading the same thing and having different, "This is what God showed me," "This is what God showed me," and like, God kind of like, uses us to sharpen each other in every aspect in our lives. In parenting, in work, in ministry, in health and fitness. [Aaron] It's true. [Daisy] Well yeah, I think just having Jesus at the center of your marriage kind of changes your priorities, you know. And I don't know, it's like, it kind of takes the, hopefully it's not like it's perfect from the get-go, but I think it really helps with like, the selfishness you can find in marriages, or even just friendships. When you're constantly reminding yourself that Jesus is at the center, I think it really helps keeps your priorities straight, you know. [Aaron] That's so good. The point is like, hey, remember what we're doing? We're getting off track, what's going on? Love that. So guys, we love you guys, we miss you guys a lot, so you guys need to come to Bend, Oregon and visit us soon. [Daisy] Oh, we miss you, too. [Nathan] We love you guys, too, we miss you. [Aaron] So, can you guys let everyone know where to find you guys, your music. [Nathan] Yeah, we are the Quiet Science. We are on Instagram. We're still on Facebook. We are on, you can listen to us on Spotify, we're on iTunes, we're everywhere. The Quiet Science. [Aaron] The Quiet Science. [Daisy] He always says it really fast. [Aaron] And we definitely want to encourage everyone to go check em out, their music is awesome. They've been doing it for years and they do it as a couple. [Daisy] Our secret band. [Aaron] Yeah, we want to thank everyone for listening to today's episode. We pray that it's been an encouragement to you in your marriage, to seek out godly friendships, and to realize that God wants to use your story, He wants to use the relationships in your life to impact this world for His goodness, for His purposes, for His Kingdom. And so we're just gonna end in prayer. [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for your creativity in how you made each and every one of us. Lord, you put so much thought and care into how you made us. Thank you for the resources you have given to our marriage, and the unique talents and gifts that you have blessed us with. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we would not only desire to use all the tools we have, but also pursue what you want us to do with them. We pray you would show us how you would like us to invest what we have so that we can grow your Kingdom in this world. Help us to encourage each other, and affirm each other in how we use the gifts, talents, experiences, testimony, and resources that you've given to us. We pray that your name would be magnified as we remain obedient to all that you have called us to do. We pray that our marriages would represent and reflect your divine love story. May we be ambassadors of your love to this hurting world. Inspire us to be creative in the ways that we share about you, and share about the faith that we have in you. Thank you for the gift of life and thank you for salvation. In Jesus' name, Amen. [Aaron and Nathan] Amen. [Daisy] Amen. [Aaron] So again, thank you for joining us on this podcast episode. This is part eight of the Marriage After God series. We're halfway, we have eight more episodes and eight more interviews. You're not gonna wanna miss em, so we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Join the Marriage After God movement and grab a copy of our new book today. https://marriageaftergod.com In this episode, we interview Matt & Lisa Jacobson From http://FaithfulMan.com and http://Club31Women.com & Faithful Family podcast. Here is a quote from our book Marriage After God “Your marriage is the message you are preaching to others. The way you and your spouse interact with each other reveals the gospel you believe.” Dear Lord, Thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the Spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain a deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry and the impact we have in each other’s lives and in this world, just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order or if we are not unified please help us to change course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point others to you and may you be glorified. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith of Marriage after God. [Lisa] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part five of the Marriage after God series, and we're gonna be talking with Matt and Lisa Jacobsen about marriage being your first ministry. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage after God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is marriage after God. [Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us on week five of this series that we're doing. I hope you're enjoying it. You're definitely going to enjoy today's guests. But before we move on, as always, we want to invite you to leave a review. Those reviews help the podcast get seen by new audiences. So, if you've been enjoying the content, we'd love a star rating, which is the easiest way to do it, all you gotta do is tap a star in the app. And if you really, really want to and have time, leaving us a text review would be awesome. We read every single one of 'em, and we love them, so thank you for that. [Jennifer] Another way you can support this podcast-- [Aaron] So today on this episode, we're gonna be talking about content from chapter five of our book, Marriage after God. And the chapter's titled, "Your First Ministry." and we thought, what better way to talk about this chapter than to talk with our pastors and ask them who inspired us and showed us what it looked like to recognize our marriage as ministry. And now we actually reference them and talk about them in this chapter, and so today we have Matt and Lisa Jacobson with us, welcome. [Lisa] Hey, nice to be here. [Matt] Awesome to be here, you bet. [Aaron] Yeah, and we're in our garage, sitting on our couches. And today we're gonna be talking about this topic. But before we talk about that, why don't you introduce to the audience, just in case they don't know you guys, who you are, children, marriage, all that. [Matt] Okay, well, Matt Jacobsen, and this is my lovely woman. [Lisa] Hey, hello. [Matt] Lisa, and so we've been married for 26 years. We have eight kids between the ages of 12 and about 25. [Lisa] Yup. [Matt] Right, and there are four of them are out of the house and moved on. And so, what keeps us busy when we're not just hanging out and kissing in a dark corner somewhere. [Lisa] That's right. We also, we do homeschool and we do a lot of work with our kids. Our kids help us out with what we do at home and also in our ministry. [Matt] And so, speaking of ministries. So, my website is Faithfulman.com. [Lisa] And I'm Lisa with Club31women.com. [Matt] And so that is a writing ministry that speaks to marriage, parenting, church, and culture. Biblical perspective on those things. And so, that comprises a lot of what takes up our time in a given week. And then, of course, we're the pastors of a small local fellowship as well. [Aaron] Yeah, it's our fellowship. [Matt] That's right. [Aaron] You're our pastors. And we love you guys. And by the way, if everyone listening didn't hear what those were, that's faithfulman.com and club31women.com. You guys should definitely check them out. And why don't you tell them about your newest podcast that you guys just launched? [Matt] Awesome, okay. Well, the name of that podcast is Faithful Life. And it's essentially a podcast that is pursuing the and exploring the topic of what does it mean to live as a biblical Christian. There are a lot of people in the world, lot of Christians, people who identify as Christians, who are living a life that is really separate or tangential to the Bible. And really, if you're going to be a biblical Christian, you've gotta know what the Bible says about these various aspects of life: marriage, parenting, how we're to live within church community and then how we're to interact with the culture. And so, that's the focus of the podcast, faithful-- [Lisa] With a lot of emphasis on practical ways to do that, sometimes we kinda know in our heads what the right thing to do is, or what we believe the Bible says, but then how does that look in our day-to-day life, and that's something that matt and I really have a passion for is just connecting those two things. [Matt] And a little bit of experience. It's only been, what, 26 years you've been married and walking with the Lord and learning through all of the eight children. [Aaron] So we just want everyone to check out their podcast; it's called Faithful Life. And you're gonna love it. Just search for it wherever you listen to podcasts. So, let's get into the icebreaker question. And this is how we start all the episodes. It's just a fun question. How does your spouse like their coffee and what does that say about them? [Lisa] Okay, I get to go first on this one. Because everybody that knows Matt Jacobson well knows that he likes his coffee black, but, even more importantly, he likes it burning hot so that it burns a hole in your tongue, so he, if-- [Matt] And you better not put it in a cold cup. [Lisa] Right, the best way to show love to Matt Jacobson is to heat up the cup first and then pour his coffee into it. [Matt] Wow, that's one of the ways over the years you've shown love to me. But right, so anyway-- [Lisa] In the coffee-- [Matt] No, that's right in the coffee, in the realm of coffee. And Lisa takes her coffee with a teaspoon of sugar and cream and-- [Lisa] That's right, I like it a little sweet. [Matt] She likes it a little sweet, that's right. [Aaron] And it's just like her character too. Little sweet. [Matt] And I love making coffee for her; I do. In the morning, I love making coffee. I love bringing her a cup of coffee in the morning. [Jennifer] And you guys do coffee as a family a lot, so can you just share a little bit about that 'cause I just love that. [Matt] Okay, so, why don't you tell how we've corrupted our young children? [Lisa] Well, we started off in our marriage. We started each day with having coffee. Matt would make a coffee tray for him and I, and we would sit and have coffee together. And then as each child came along, we then slowly incorporated them into this special time until it became something our whole family just loves and so even our older kids when they come home for the holidays or different vacations, they'll come and that's the thing they look forward to most is having our time together over a pot of coffee. And we just talk about what we're thinking about, what's going on in our world, and it's just a really close family time. [Matt] And you know, oh, sorry. That whole process of incorporating the kids into it. It's kind of funny because it's really a metaphor, or an example, if you will, of what happens in your family. Over time, we're very strict with the older kids. I don't even remember when we began allowing them to have coffee. Including them. I don't even remember, do you remember how old they were? [Lisa] No. [Matt] But, as time went on, the younger kids just get to start earlier and earlier. And I think we started, did Hawkin have his first? [Lisa] He was about seven or eight maybe-- [Aaron] It was a bottle right? [Lisa] When he had his first cup of coffee. [Matt] That's right. [Lisa] A very, very tiny cup of coffee, mostly milk. [Jennifer] Mostly milk, yeah. [Matt] Yeah, right, and so now we're going, okay, so. [Lisa] Almost because their dad's kind of soft on the issue. [Matt] I am; I am. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I follow Lisa on Instagram, and I love watching your stories because you'll post about it every once in a while of just your guys' family time around that, and it's beautiful and you can just tell, just from that short glimpse that you give the rest of us that it's a really beautiful time that you're cultivating in your family. [Matt] And in some senses, like you see the snapshot, and it is awesome, it really is. But, it's just so normal, a part of life, and a wonderful life is built on a lot of normal moments that you just string together over time. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm, it's true, yeah, it's good. [Matt] And so, yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, there's the big one-offs that are memorable, but then there's the, it's the everyday things that shape who we are, it's all those habits that we have and those routines. I love that. Why don't you share the quote from the chapter? And then we'll just start asking questions. [Jennifer] Okay, so this is from chapter five of Marriage after God. "Your marriage is the message you are preaching to other, "the way you and your spouse interact with each other "reveals the gospel you believe." [Aaron] Matt and Lisa, how would you that that is true in what you guys have experienced, because it's something that you've definitely not only shown us through your own marriage, but also directly have shown us in ours in saying hey, you can't expect to have this ministry over here if your home doesn't match. So could you give me some insight on how this quote plays out in real life? [Matt] Well, one of the things that you just naturally see in life is you see people in ministry and what's the big joke in America, at least it used to be, I don't know if it still is, who are the worst kids in church? The PKs, the preacher's kids, right? And so, that is so antithetical to how we're called to live in the word of God because we are called ambassadors. That means that we are representatives of the kingdom of God on earth. We bear the name of Christ, and we're his representatives. And how is it possible that you have this ministry or you have this public presence, and then it's not true in your own personal life. You wanna tell somebody about the wonderful truths of Scripture. And you wanna tell somebody the gospel and explain to them how they can have a wonderful relationship with the Lord. And then you don't have, you're not living those wonderful relationships in your family. I know that we had seen a lot of this early on. And we were even involved in a particular church, years and years ago, they were lovely people but focused just on evangelism and kinda lost the relationships with their kids over time. We just saw-- [Lisa] And in their marriage. [Matt] This family's disintegrating. And the marriage is. Then we though, you know what, the life that we're called to as believers is much more holistic than that. And the truths of the gospel are supposed to be manifest in our lives. And if I could just say one more thing. I know you've got a lot to say, too. You see in the instructions for church leadership in the book of 1 Timothy, one of the principal requirements of anybody in ministry and this is serving as an elder or a deacon within the church. [Aaron] Yes, specific position. [Matt] One of the principal requirements is that you've demonstrated that your children have yielded hearts to you. You're governing your family well. You're leading your family well. There's a sense of order and peace in your home. So God wants it to be true at home before we go out to represent him to the world. [Aaron] And what does Paul tell Timothy, he says how can you presume to manage the household of God if you can't manage your own home, which is how he, after all that teaching, he says that it doesn't make sense. [Matt] Yeah. [Lisa] And I think that Matt's kind of big picture guy. And I'm more of what does that look like in my day kind of person. And one thing I had noticed that in Scripture, when it talks about how we are to be towards one another, how we're to be, to be loving, patient, kind. And we apply all of those things to out there. So, just an example: I go to the grocery store, and the cashier's taking forever to get me through the line. And she apologizes, but I've read the Bible, so I'm going to be, oh it's fine, I'll wait. I understand you're trying your hardest, and we'll get through here because I'm being patient, and I'm being kind. And then I go home, and I have a different response when it takes Matt forever to come out and help me bring in the groceries in the house. Or, because I'll be snippin' at him-- [Matt] Has that ever happened, like even one time in our marriage? [Lisa] Like I wait for you? Do you really wanna bring that up? [Aaron] Everyone listening was like that was just today. [Lisa] So, but it really struck home to me that all those things that we think apply to out there to strangers or maybe to friends. It somehow, or maybe there's a disconnect, to actually sometimes the hardest person, sometimes, is actually the person your married to. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, thinking about our own marriage. I used to do this thing where I would always be upbeat and positive and smiley with everyone. And then I'd come home and immediately my countenance would change, and Aaron-- [Aaron] I finally called you out on it, I was like-- [Jennifer] Yeah, 'cause Aaron would be like-- [Aaron] Why do they get the smiles and then I get this? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] What is this? [Jennifer] And then I remember specifically him saying, I want your best. And I had to figure it out. I had to figure out why I was doing that and check my flesh on it really. [Aaron] Well, I think there's a default position of, well, I have you, therefore you should deal with who I actually wanna be today, and everyone else has to, I want them to see the best part of me. It's almost like it's just totally backwards. And it's actually lying. [Matt] Well, the harsh reality of the circumstance is who you actually are in terms of your personal character is who you are when the doors are shut and you're letting your hair down, so to speak, and you're just being your natural self with the people where the consequences might not be as immediate or severe as they might be if you do this in public. And so, that's the reality of who we are. And so, it's important to take stock on those things. How am I with the people that I'm closest to because those are the people that we tend to take for granted and those are the circumstances that we tend to be a little less guarded. [Aaron] Now that you're saying that, I'm thinking, it's actually probably infinitely less damaging to be that kind of person in public, when people they may be offended for the moment, but they're gonna forget your face in like eight seconds 'cause they don't live with you than the person that we literally spend hours and hours a day and our lifetime with: our children, our spouse. We sacrifice the main thing for the non-main thing. [Matt] Totally, and that's of course humanly speaking, in terms of the cost, over the long-term. [Aaron] Yeah, publicly. [Matt] But relative to the Lord's perspective on these relations, he wants it to be the same everywhere. [Aaron] Yeah. [Matt] He wants us to be loving and in the spirit everywhere with the people, especially close to us, but also with everybody else that we're interacting with. [Aaron] Or repentant if we're not. [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah, there is grace Right? [Aaron] Which changes us. [Matt] Well, you know what, you brought up the R word: repentance. And that is such an important word and such an abused word in our Christian religious world because repentance has a specific meaning. It's a word that has a definition. And we cut ourselves so much slack and we dip back into the same sins over and, how about this, just this sin we're talking about here where we're not being kind to our spouse, but we've got it for everybody else. And, oh, I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that. Please forgive me. And Lord, I was unkind to my wife, please forgive me. I should have been more kind. And then we go on our day, and then I do it again. And then I do it again. Have I repented if I just keep walking in that same sin? [Aaron] No, you've apologized. [Matt] I've apologized, right? [Aaron] You're sorry for being-- [Matt] Because to repent means I used to do that, and now I'm doing this. It means to turn from, that's the definition of the word. And it's such a good word for Christians, all of us, to really wrestle with, and say, you know what, have I really repented and forsaken that sin? Because that's what it means to walk as God would have us as a couple and not to just keep going back, over and over and over again. [Aaron] I think of this quote. I'm not gonna say who said it, but someone in our family used to say, "If you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it." That's kind of the idea; we say sorry over and over and over again. But in reality, our heart hasn't changed. We're just allowing something, whether we're intentionally doing something. We're not intentionally walking in the spirit, so therefore, we're defaulting to walking in the flesh, and we haven't repented of anything. This is something that I had to recognize in my life with certain sin in my life was I was sorry, but usually I was sorry for the shame or the regret or being caught or the remorse I see in your face or the pain I've caused you, Jennifer, but I'd never had been sorry for my sin which is what leads to repentance, and then I change and walk in that. So thanks for bringing that clarity. [Matt] Yeah, absolutely. And so to come full circle on your question, what does it mean to have a marriage that is reflecting the gospel? Well, if you have a marriage that is the kind of marriage that someone else is interested in, then you're not creating this incredible disconnect in the mind of the person that you're sharing the gospel with because what are you inviting them to? If the gospel hasn't affected and hasn't made your marriage beautiful, what are you inviting them to? Here we are married, and we have a bad, bickering, difficult, challenging marriage, and I'm out there telling somebody that Jesus loves them and died for them. It's so critical 'cause as we, and I know you guys have talked about on your podcast and certainly in your book, that your marriage is the gospel you're preaching, that is the gospel you're preaching. And the power of your message will not be one iota stronger or more influential than is the meaning and the love and the strength of your marriage relationship. [Jennifer] That's so good. I hope everyone hits rewind and just listens to that a few times. [Aaron] Yeah, and let's take marriage out of the picture, just in the Christian individual's life. If the gospel's not true in our life, so for me, when I was walking in my addiction to pornography, and I wasn't repentant of it, I thought I was, I was sorry for it; I was sorry for what it did to me, but I wasn't truly repentant of it. I could never tell someone that Christ came to bring freedom, which is what the Bible teaches us, that's the fruit of the gospel. [Matt] There you go. [Aaron] Because I couldn't walk in freedom. Like you said, I'm literally showing them, like, hey, here's God, he's awesome-- [Jennifer] He's powerless. [Aaron] He's powerless. [Jennifer] In my life. [Matt]right. [Aaron] He can't, and this isn't about just all of the sudden everything being healed and perfect and great, but this is definitely the truth of freedom from sin and death, which is what the Bible teaches, which is what Christ came to destroy. He took the power away from it. [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] But he doesn't have that in my life. Therefore, you should love God and believe in Jesus, but he can't actually do anything for the core of who you are. He can't change your physical situation or your spiritual situation, but, you know what, he's the thing you should believe in. It just doesn't make any sense. [Matt] No, it doesn't. We just need to remember that even if we're not saying anything, even if we're not on the street corner, preaching the gospel. We're preaching a sermon every time we walk out the door together. We're preaching a sermon. We're literally saying, this is what it means to be a Christian man and a Christian woman. Whether you mean to or not, you're preaching a sermon. The question is, what's the message that you're giving other people? [Jennifer] And how, can you explain, just for those people listening, how are they giving that message to other people? [Matt] It tends to be if you're living in a town and you've got your immediate circle and then you've got your circle of influence, the people you interact with, the people at the bank, the people at the gas station, the people at the grocery store, they know, over the course of time, they know whether you're a Christian or not. It just becomes evident that that is who you are. People probably don't realize it, but as somebody who identifies as a Christian, people watch you a little closer. They tend to want to just scrutinize you a little bit, or when we're at a restaurant. [Lisa] I was gonna say, what I was thinking about was how many times we've been in an airplane, traveling together, in a restaurant together, we have been stopped so many times by people we didn't even realize were watching us, someone who's serving us or the flight attendant, and said, you know, you two are just such a loving couple. And they could just see the way we were just interacting. And so people do notice that. And often times, especially at a restaurant, they'll see that we've prayed, so they also know that we're believers. And we've had a lot of opportunities to share the gospel with those people just even based on their observation of us. [Aaron] Well, it's uncommon. It's uncommon; it's normal to have cold relationships and being on the phones. It's uncommon to see engagement and true infatuation and adoration or-- [Lisa] Yeah, like the last time we were on a flight, we had a flight attendant come to us at the end of the flight, it was a long flight. And she said, "You know, the other flight attendants and I "were all talking about you two." Really? We're not that interesting. [Matt] Well, we were kissing, I mean. We were getting along kissing. [Lisa] That's right; that's right. And they were just observing how we were with each other, and how cute it was and thought we were maybe somewhat newly married. And I'm like, "Oh, no, we've been married 26 years, "and we have eight kids." Like, no way, yeah, really. [Aaron] And you're still in love? [Lisa] Yeah, yeah, it was really astonishing. [Matt] And you mentioned something about praying in a restaurant. And I know a lot of people listening probably do. It's probably less common these days than it has been in the past, but a lot of people still bow their heads and pray in a restaurant. Personally, I love doing that. I love just the witness: I'm a Christian, and I'm gonna give God thanks for this food. So I like doing that. But if you're somebody out there who does that, can I just encourage you to leave a fat, hog tip? Okay, because-- [Lisa] It's like a bonus. [Aaron] It is a bonus. [Matt] Because you've literally hoisted your flag at the table, I'm a Christian, and so, leave a great taste in your waiter's or server's mouth. [Aaron] It's a little sacrifice. [Matt] It's so small, yeah, so small. So small, but it's a good testimony, too. Just to say, you know what, love the Lord, and oh, by the way, God bless you. [Aaron] Going back to the, I think that's a great little bit of advice of how to spread the love of God. Like, hey, we love God and we just wanted to bless you, thank you-- [Matt] And certainly if it's a place that you go back more than once. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's true. [Aaron] Oh yeah! [Matt] You have struck up, well you've created an opportunity to strike up a conversation with the person because they're, well, first of all, they're business people, right? They wanna make money. So they wanna serve you well, and it's just an opportunity, that's all. Just an opportunity, if you're going to pray, then by all means, please don't complain about the food. [Aaron] I was gonna say that actually. There's certain Christiany things that we do, maybe we were raised that way, and we just pray. We're Christians, we love God, we pray. But then, let's say we're bickering at the table, or we are being super rude to the waiters, or our kids are throwing food on the floor and silverware. That is a part of our witness. [Lisa] It is. [Aaron] How we are. And they're like, you did the thing that I thought you were gonna do. They're looking for us to fail. [Jennifer] To fail, right. [Aaron] Doesn't mean we're not gonna fail, but the majority of the time, our hearts should be aware of how we're being, which goes back to that marriage being your ministry. You guys had this awesome, oh, people noticed us, and they stopped us and said thank you. We've had the other side of it. And no one's actually confronted us and saw us fighting, but we've had people message us after the fact. We've mentioned this a few times. And like, "Hey, we saw you in the store. "I didn't stop and say hi, but just wanted to say hi." And they'd message us on Instagram. And then we were like, "Oh my gosh, I think we were, were we fighting?" [Jennifer] This was a long time ago; we've gotten better since then. This was a long time ago. [Aaron] It made us aware, man, like, well, A, we have a social media presence, but it doesn't matter if you do. Like if you're a Christian, there's people that know you. You have friends, you have neighbors, you have, and people that may not know you personally, they're gonna see you regularly in your small town, or big town, I guess, because you frequent the same places. What kind of fragrance as a couple and as Christians do we give in this world where we say one thing and act a different way? That's literally what hypocrisy is. We talk about this, actually, in this chapter. We talk about, we're gonna ask you a question in a second, another question, but it doesn't make any sense if we're trying to minister in other ways, and then in the home, there is no real ministry happening. And so, question for you guys is are marriages being a ministry, and being our first ministry, because it's our first one another, our closest neighbor, we always like to say is our spouse and then our kids and everyone else. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Well, this husband, he's a minister, and he doesn't actually have time to be focused on his family. Or a wife that's doing this thing over here for God, and she doesn't have time to serve her home and children. Are there marriages that are exempt from this? Why or why not? [Lisa] I don't know that there are exemptions in that sense although Matt might want to address that, but what that's come to mind, I do have many women write me who are in a marriage situation where the spouse is not a believer or at least not walking with God. And I know that that's a greater challenge, and I wouldn't want to put undue burden on that couple, especially the one that's trying to be faithful, and the other is not walking that way. There has to be grace for that, and the one person has to, you know, scripture tells us to keep quiet and just keep shining the light of Christ in their home. But I also wouldn't want to feel like, oh, I can't minister to others now because my spouse is not walking in truth right now. [Matt] And the way I would look at that is the Bible teaches us what is normal and how we are to walk as normal Christians in this world. And when it comes to marriage, what's normal is the way Jesus loves the church, his bride. That's how we're supposed to love our bride. That's normal. And that instruction, love your wife as Christ loved the church, that's not a special instruction for somebody who happens to be in the public eye. That is an instruction for absolutely every Christian man, every man who stands up and says, I follow Lord; I have committed my life to Christ. I have repented of my sin, and I'm a Christian. Every man who has said that should have a wife who says, I'm the most cherished woman I know. And no man is exempt from that. And so, here's the thing, if a church lays claim to being full of godly men, then there's one thing you know for sure, it's full of cherished wives. You cannot have one without the other. You cannot be a godly man and not cherish your wife. And so in that sense, I would say nobody's exempt from this, but, of course, we live in a broken world with lots of relationships and circumstances, and people have struggled. And God has grace for those things. But in those circumstances, the person, whatever they are, wherever they fall on the spectrum, difficult and virtually sad and very challenging to not that bad, wherever they are in the spectrum, their job is to draw near to God and walk as closely to God as he wants them, as he desires them to, and to seek them in those circumstances. But I appreciate you bringing that up because there are lot of people, lots of wives, lots of husbands, a husband called us recently. His wife left, he's got, I think they've got five kids. One of the kids has Down's Syndrome, and the wife's just like, "I'm done." And she left, and he didn't want her to leave, he tried to love her right up through, for several years, up to point where she left. He himself has remained faithful and has a ministry even though she's left, so it's true, it's not that you don't have a ministry. It's just that God provides his standards and principles and requirements for Christian men, for Christian wives, and for marriage. And then sin comes in and everything else is an exception to the rule, but the rule is every man is to cherish his wife in the way Jesus Christ loves the church. [Aaron] So, I do appreciate Lisa that you brought that up, too, because I'm sure that we have people that listen, and one of the spouses is not walking, is not a believer, and we get, praise God, he gives provision for this in his word, in 1 Peter, he shows, it's funny because it's to the wife, it's almost like he knew that men were gonna be more prone to this, not being faithful, which is sad, but it's true. But even then I think, you're right, that it doesn't mean they can't have ministry outside of the home because their marriage isn't in order correctly faith wise, but that doesn't mean that their first ministry still isn't their spouse. Like you said, they still have a call, the wife or the husband, to serve and love their spouse the way the Bible has called them to, faithfully, whether they receive it or not, of course. And that's also, I don't wanna say qualifies, I don't know if that's the right word, but, it still prepares them to do ministry outside their home because it's in order. Instead of, I'm not going to love my husband or my wife like this because they're treating me this way, but I am gonna go love over here, that's not gonna produce the kind of fruit that God's looking for. But I did appreciate that. I think it's totally relevant to recognize that there are these non-ideal marriages. [Matt] You know, and one of the things that might be important to mention here is wherever you are on the spectrum: you have a spectacular marriage all the way to it's terrible. We tend to fall into this wrong thought process that goes something like this: you're walking in sin; therefore, I can't help being the way I am. [Lisa] Oh, now, that's a good point. [Matt] And the fact of the matter is is the way you act has nothing to do with my capacity as a believer to walk in holiness. [Lisa] Right, no that's-- [Matt] And we kinda cut ourselves a little slack there, don't we? 'Cause if you're a certain way, well then that gives me license to be another way in response-- [Aaron] Yeah, if you only respected me, I would treat you or love you as Christ loves the church. [Matt] That's right, and every one of us has the capacity according to the word of God to walk in holiness, irrespective of how our spouse is walking. Now we certainly make it easier, right? If we're walking in holiness for the other person. But, we can't blame our distance from God on how someone else has chosen to act. [Aaron] Amen. [Jennifer] Taking a look into your guys' marriage. You know, you've been married quite a while. So go back to the beginning. Was there a learning curve in your guys' relationship on how to love and respect each other and cherish each other in that? [Matt] OH, absolutely. I was the most loving husband in the world. The only problem-- [Aaron] That's a real laugh, by the way. [Matt] The only-- [Lisa] Revisionist history, I think that's what it's-- [Matt] The only problem with it is I was loving Lisa in the way that said love to me. [Lisa] Oh, that's true. [Matt] We'd like to tell the story, in fact, we tell it on our own podcast. We just have this crazy story where I literally am superman husband, okay? I am helping out with everything. [Lisa] It's our first year of marriage. [Matt] First year of marriage. I am helping out with everything. I am helping with, not the laundry, you wouldn't let me touch the laundry 'cause she said, nope, that's mine; I will do the laundry. Everything else, the vacuuming, folding the laundry. [Lisa] Cleaning the bathrooms. [Matt] Cleaning the bathrooms, everything else, the dishes, everything, I'm helping, I'm helping. I'm doing it all, and I'm thinking-- [Lisa] And I'm getting madder and madder and-- [Matt] And she's over in the kitchen. And there's the flames, you know, the ones coming out of her eyes, are visible from across the room, and I-- [Aaron] Although I have never seen Lisa angry before, so I couldn't-- [Lisa] Oh, I'm capable. [Matt] And I thought, what is wrong with this woman? You can't find five guys in the entire state of Oregon that do the things that I do with a willing heart, and I'm trying to bless you, you're just, there's nothing that will make you happy. You can't be blessed; I don't know what your problem is. And so, she just takes the towel, and she almost busts a dish on me as she sets the plate down on the counter. And then she takes the towel and throws it on the counter. [Lisa] Thank you. [Matt] And I'm going, what in the world. She turns to me, and she goes, "I just don't know why you don't love me." [Lisa] True story. [Aaron] What's happening? [Matt] And I'm going, okay, am I losing my mind here? And I'm going, you've gotta be kid, you've literally got to be kidding me. [Lisa] So my thinking is I can vacuum, I can clean the bathrooms, anybody can do that. But there's only one guy in my life that can take me out and spend some time with me and listen to my thoughts. [Aaron] Look in my eyes-- [Lisa] Yes! [Aaron] And talk to me. [Lisa] And so he could just feel my frustration over time. So, the more frustrated he would feel-- [Matt] I would try harder. [Lisa] The more he'd vacuum. [Matt] I'd do more! [Lisa] And I'm just like, put the stupid vacuum down. I just want to spend time with yo. [Matt] So I'm going, wow, that's easy. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] Who knew love was that easy? So in our case, it was just me taking the initiative to say, okay, we're gonna go out at such-and-such a day, and it didn't matter what it was. We'd go for a walk; we could go have a cup of coffee. And I mean, at any time you as a husband tell your wife, "Hey, I just wanna spend some time with you." You can turn one cup of coffee into an awesome date. You really can. [Lisa] It doesn't take much. [Matt] It doesn't take much. You talk about learning curve, absolutely we had to learn each other and what was important to you and what was important to me and this is so true in absolutely every area of marriage. For instance, we've given you the for instance in terms of the learning curve, but in terms of discovering what it is your spouse is interested in, what they like, what's important to them. There's a very, very interesting way of finding out. [Aaron] You ask. [Matt] You ask a question! Yeah, yeah, and it's such a great thing to do because you know what happens when I turn to you and I ask you a question about you. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] Who doesn't like talking about themselves? Who doesn't like being known and explored and discovered. Who doesn't like someone being interested in them. So that's what we do when we turn to our spouse and say, okay, I wanna ask you a question. I wanna ask you what are three things that I can do that would make you feel loved? So that's just the normal stuff of marriage. But you know what? And you can even take it right into the subject of sex. And you can say, what are things that you enjoy when we come together physically? What are some of those things? Because, you know what, we tend to love the other person with the things that we want. [Lisa] I think that sometimes people boil this down to love languages, which is interesting and helpful. But what we're talking about is so much more than a love language, for one thing, those things change over time. It depends when the season when we had four kids, five and under, the vacuum really helped a lot, and I had a, not that I still didn't want to go out, [Aaron] Right, in that season, that was much more loving. [Lisa] Yeah, it was loving; it did mean a lot. [Matt] And physical touch when we had five kids. What would the age's spread have been with our five kids? [Lisa] Yeah, six and under. [Matt] Five kids six and under. Physical touch was less important to her in those years. [Lisa] Imagine that. [Matt] You know? She's got kids. You got enough of that. [Jennifer] Her tank is full. [Matt] Yeah, I'm touching 24/7, exactly. Right, so it does change over time. [Lisa] So instead of thinking of it as big subjects of love language, think of it as who you are as a person and where are you at today, where are you at in this season, where are you at in your life right now. And that involves that continual seeking and pursuing and asking. [Jennifer] So continual even after 26 years. Like you guys are still asking? [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] You have gotten there yet? [Matt] Absolutely. [Aaron] You haven't gotten to the-- [Matt] No, we're seeking each other all the time. And you know what? [Jennifer] And it's fun, right? [Lisa] It is. [Matt] It is fun, absolutely fun. And the thing is, if you love the other person, it's not a burden to do it. You actually want to know where they're at. You wanna know where their heart is at. [Lisa] And I think it can even be in somewhat negative things like say, I notice something triggers Matt into a bad mood or just like a dark, you know. And it used to be, when we were younger, that would just like, oh, fine, if you're gonna be in a bad mood, then I'll just stay away from you. I'm not saying those things, but that was my basic attitude. And I feel like over the years, now, let's say something like that happens, which it does, then I can say, I noticed, like something happened, you know, we had a good start today, and then something kind of went sideways. You wanna tell me about that? Did something happen or did I say something? Not in a defensive way, but just really, we've had some really good conversations about that. He'd go, "You know, I wasn't aware of that." Sometimes even going back to your childhood. As a child, my mom treated me a certain way, so now whenever I hear this phrase, it takes me back to a time when I didn't feel cared for. [Aaron] Yeah. [Lisa] And you're thinking, oh, well, I didn't mean to [Aaron] I know how it feels. [Lisa] communicate that I didn't care for you. But I can see that that would translate to that. And now I know, and I can be more mindful of that. [Aaron] And lovingly. Just the loving hey, is everything okay? Not because you're bothered by it. [Lisa] Yes. [Aaron] But because you're concerned for it. [Lisa] Yes. [Aaron] Which then, I'm sure, Matt, you would experience. There's been times that I don't even know why I'm brooding. It just takes a moment to be checked on it. And then I'm like, oh, I actually don't know why I'm brooding right now; I actually do feel irritated. I don't know why. Which it totally could be a hormonal thing, it could be a something I ate, and maybe there's something spiritual going on that we need to be praying through, but that approach of not taking it personally because we do that. Why are you doing this around me? I was in a great mood, now you just brought me down. But rather, helper, but for each, an actual concern. Hey, is everything alright? That was a really good bit of advice. I think everyone listening is gonna be loving these tips because this is 26 years of you guys learning this. We're only 12 in, what is that? We're not even half. [Matt] It'll go quick; it'll go quick. [Aaron] We are halfway to the kids, though. [Matt] Oh, that's right. [Lisa] Yeah. [Matt] And you got started earlier than we did. [Aaron] We got started earlier, so we might bypass you So you guys'll [Matt] Outpace us, yeah, that's right. But then there's adoption, we can stay ahead of 'em. [Aaron] It's true, that's true. So I'm loving these tips. And it all plays back into this. Right now, you're talking about how you guys minister to each other. Loving each other, cultivating intimacy, the communication, the strong bond which allows us, then, it frees us to be more able to minister outside the home. Not that it can't happen, but when you guys are so connected, so close, there's more freedom, and less internal turmoil. [Matt] I might even say it a little differently. I would say what it does is it authenticates the message. [Aaron] That's perfect. [Matt] And you know, we see this principle, well not just principle, we see this exact teaching in the high priestly prayer that Jesus prays in John 17 where he's saying, their unity, let them be one as we are one, Jesus is praying. Let them, his followers, those who come to Christ, who come to a repentance and become the children of God. Let them be one as we are one that the world might believe that you have sent me. The unity that we have, the oneness that we have is the authentication of the message of Christ that he came from the Father. And so, that's so true in the church as a whole, and it's absolutely true in marriage. When we're walking in love, when we're walking in unity, when we're exuding that, where we go through life, it authenticates the message when we do speak the truth of the gospel to someone. [Lisa] And not just out there, but in our own homes, to our kids. [Matt] Oh, that's just so true. [Lisa] When your kids are little, you can kinda get away with it, or at least you think you are. [Aaron] We think we think we are. [Lisa] Believe me, as they get older, they'll tell the world what it's really like at home. They'll tell their friends. [Matt] They do. [Lisa] I'm just saying because it's reality. And the opposite is true, too, that if you are loving each other, it's a witness to them, it's an encouragement to them. Our kids all want to get married. They want to have that kind of marriage. And that's a huge blessing. One of the things that we recently asked one of our older daughters, who's in her twenties. I think it was a Father's Day thing. What do you like most about your dad? She said that, "He loves Mom so well." And it was such a beautiful testimony that yeah, they're watching, they know whether you have loved each other in those quiet moments. [Aaron] Well, when you think about it, almost everyone probably listening, when they look back and they think about their home and how they were raised, I'm sure a lot of them, being raised in Christian homes or not, maybe heard the Bible, but did they see it? Did they see the Bible; did they see the gospel? They don't remember what they ate. They don't remember all the places they've been. But they definitely remember how Mom and Dad were together. They definitely remember how Mom and Dad treated them. And that's where the ministry in our home comes in. 'Cause I've told Jennifer this. I said, Jennifer, all of these things that we have, Unveiled Wife, Husband Revolution, our podcast. I said all of that means absolutely nothing if my kids don't know the Lord. And so, not just our ministry to each other that we have a healthy marriage and that we're godly, and that we love each other and respect each other and honor each other and cherish each other and serve each other, but that my kids see it. And that they recognize what we're doing and why we're doing it, and that at the end of the day, they look back and they say thank you to us, not because of us alone, but because we were obedient. I want my kids to say that. I want my kids to say, "Mom and Dad loved each other. "I just know it; they loved me, and they showed me "who God was and they lived it every day. "They didn't just use their words." As James says, don't just be hearers only, but doers of the word. Are we just listening and not doing? Are we just telling and doing the opposite? The do what I say, not what I do? [Lisa] Right, right. [Matt] Do what I say, not what I do. It works every time, just not the way the parent thought it was going to work. [Aaron] Exactly and so I just, going back to that, that's what I want everyone listening to understand. The main purpose of this chapter in the book, is, and it's early on in the book, it's chapter five, and it's setting this idea of we could want to do lots of things for God, but God wants us to do what he's told us to do. And if we can't be faithful with the little thing, and the little thing is our children, our spouse, our home, this is a little picture of the world. If I can't minister to my wife and love her as Christ loves the church, I have no right going and loving a stranger like that. I could. [Matt] I think what we do is we tend to think like, I know what you're saying, as this is the little thing, so to do the big thing. I actually think that reality is kind of on its head. [Aaron] Okay. [Matt] I think the big thing we're doing is we're being faithful with our spouses, we're being faithful in discipling our children. And it's a great, big deal, and see-- [Aaron] Man, I heard that, yeah. [Matt] If the church had been teaching and focusing on that these past, what, I dunno, however many years. [Aaron] 60 or 70 years. [Matt] Would the church be in the state that it's in today with disintegrating families and churches filled with unfulfilled marriages and disappointments and divorce and all of those things. It's a great big deal. And if we're faithful here, God can entrust with ministry elsewhere. [Jennifer] In chapter 14 of the book, we talk about how what God sees as extraordinary is so different than what the world deems extraordinary. When we look at our own lives, it is that day-to-day, all those little choices of discipling our children, being faithful to one another, that is extraordinary because that is where God is working. [Aaron] Especially today, it's normal, you brought up the word normal, it's common, that's what it is, it's common in the world for there to be divorce and unfaithfulness and children who are rebellious and hate their parents. It is extraordinary and remarkable now even though it should be normal for a marriage to have love in it. [Matt] Well, that's just it. [Aaron] The gospel. [Matt] It is normal, biblical marriage to have a loving, close, wonderful, fulfilling, enjoyable, beautiful oneness in marriage. That is normal Christianity; that's normal marriage. The problem is, is we see what's common around us in the world, and we get used to what's common, and start thinking that that's normal, but it's not. If you have a biblical perspective, if you walk God's way, and your marriage reflects God's priorities and principles, then you're gonna have an awesome, wonderful, beautiful, loving, enjoyable marriage because that's what a normal Christian marriage really is. [Jennifer] And the power of God's testimony in your life is actually powerful. [Matt] Absolutely, right, exactly. [Aaron] Well, people can't argue with it. I mean, they can argue with anything. We were just talking about this. When you're around people that are walking a certain way, makes it easier to believe that you can too. That goes both ways. So when you see someone, and you're like man they're, like the stewardesses looking at you. They don't your whole story, but they know the story they just saw. You're not faking it when you're sitting in the aisle, whatever row you're in and like, oh we want everyone to see that we're perfect. We have this smile on because you can't fake it. [Matt] Yeah. [Aaron] Everyone fakes it, and no one falls for it. Like, oh-- [Jennifer] Maybe for a short flight, but not long one like you said. [Aaron] Yeah, the short flight's, but yeah. [Matt] That's right. [Aaron] And again, we keep going back to this. God's not interested in just us having a happy marriage and a healthy marriage. [Matt] No. [Aaron] For the sake of happy and healthy marriage. That's not an end game. [Matt] That's exactly right. [Aaron] It's the means to the end, like you said. It's what, what was the word you used? It verifies, no-- [Matt] Authenticates. [Aaron] It authenticates. [Matt] Yeah. [Aaron] What's sad and still is very powerful to realize is when we're not it doesn't make God the liar. It makes us the liar. [Matt] It reminds me or brings to mind that phrase. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power. 'Cause you look at it from a galloping horse at 100 yards, and it looks like Christianity. It looks like something that's related to God and related to the Bible. But then you get close and you see, well, no, actually. It's not real; it's not true, and that's when we see the disintegration in the next generation when the kids are like, I don't want any part of that. Again, you just can't hide that. And especially, you mentioned, Lisa, you said, yeah, you can't hide it, your kids will absolutely tell the story and we know of a family. The snapshot looks amazing, and nobody would know this, but their kids told us recently, oh yeah, our parents yell all the time. And you'd never know it, but the kids know it. And the kids are now talking; they're all older now. And now they're saying, oh, no, no, no, no. Parents yell all the time. So that's why it's gotta be true there because if you're out witnessing, if you're that parents, and it could be yelling or bickering or fighting or cheating on your taxes or any number of things, but if you're that parent, and in the gas stations, you're telling a guy, oh, hey, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you, and God loves you, and he wants you to have a relationship. The kid is sitting there going, "Are you kidding me?" it's so important that for the things that we say to be true about how we live. It's called not being a hypocrite, and your kids can figure it out at a very early age. [Aaron] All of this was so good. I'm encouraged; it makes me think about my marriage even though we're constantly working on it, I just think, man, I wanna-- Makes me think [Jennifer] Of the kids. [Aaron] Yeah, I wanna pursue you more. I want to constantly be doing that for the sake of our outward ministry and for the sake of our home, so thank you for these stories, the openness with us. We're gonna ask you our question that we're asking everyone. What is your definition of a marriage after God? [Lisa] I think that it's that ever growing a deeper love for each other. And it doesn't have to be perfect. I think sometimes we just go, well, it's perfect, so we throw our hands, or it's not perfect, so we throw our hands up. Instead of thinking, no, I'm gonna move forward in this. And I'm gonna grow in these areas. I can even think of things I have struggled with. Believe it or not, I do have a temper. And Matt has the ability, somehow, to press that button better than anybody else I know. [Matt] Well, I mean, just on a boring Saturday. I mean if there's nothing else to do. [Lisa] Press my buttons. So I'll find myself reacting to him, and I will stop myself literally mid-sentence and go, wait, it's like, yep, like okay. [Aaron] That's a good-- [Lisa] What I wanted say was. I didn't quite the first two seconds or minutes, however the situation was, wasn't right. But checking myself and going, okay, but that's not who I wanna be. That's how I was, but that's not who I wanna be anymore, so I wanna try again. And giving each other that grace to grow, but being determined to change and not say, this is not who I wanna be; I do want us to be loving close. [Matt] And for me, I think I would boil it down. I mean, that's a huge subject, right? And there's so many facets to it. But I would boil it down to this. The fundamental understanding that my marriage is what God is doing in the world. It's not what I'm doing in the world. It's not the thing that I have; I have a marriage. My marriage is what God is doing in the world. The Bible says what God has put together let no man put asunder. This is something God is doing, and so if you have that basic, fundamental faith about this relationship, it's a foundation and a starting point for moving forward. [Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us today. This has just been, like Aaron said, incredible and inspiring. If people were inspired today and they want to follow you more, can you just remind them where they can find you? [Lisa] We have a podcast, Faithful Life. And we'd love to have you join us over there. And we also, both of us have a website. Matt has faithfulman.com, and I have club31women.com. [Matt] And then you're also on Instagram, club31women and faithfulman, on Instagram, so you can find us there as well. [Aaron] Everyone listening, definitely go follow them, they are golden. [Jennifer] If you like Marriage after God, and you like what we share, you're definitely gonna like them. [Aaron] We actually just steal all of our content from them and repurpose them. They have been integral in the growth and maturity in our life. And so, we appreciate you guys. [Jennifer] Thank you. [Aaron] And we thank you for not only sharing with our audience now, but for sharing with us over the last five years. [Lisa And Matt] We love you guys. [Aaron] That we've known you guys. So, we're gonna close out with a prayer. Jennifer's gonna pray and then, yeah. [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for creating marriage with such a significant purpose of revealing to the world your divine love. Please help us to make choices that reflect your love in the way we love one another. May we choose to walk in obedience. Thank you for your word which instructs us and shows us how we should walk in obedience. Please continue to give us wisdom and strength as we choose to walk in the spirit and not our flesh. We pray we would make our marriage a priority. We pray we would gain deeper understanding of how our marriage is our first ministry, and the impact we have in each other's lives and in this world just by remaining faithful to your word. If our priorities are ever out of order, or if we are not unified, please help us to change our course. Constantly direct our hearts to align with yours. May our marriage always be in a place where you can use us as a symbol to point other to you, and may you be glorified. In Jesus' name, amen. [Aaron] Amen. [Matt] Amen. [Aaron] So, thank you all for listening today. I hope this blessed you guys. And as always, we want you guys to have a conversation about this. Go on a date, and discuss the things that we talked about today. We have, what is it, 11 more episodes in this series. 11 more interviews to come. They're gonna be awesome; please stay tuned. We look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageafterGod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Order our new book today! Marriage After God: Chasing Boldly After God’s Purpose for Your Life Together https://marriageaftergod.com In this episode, we chat with Jerrad lopes and his wife about the place that the word of God should have in our life and marriage. A quote from Chapter 4 of Marriage After God “A marriage after God is one that is eager to allow the Word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit.” Dear Lord, Thank you for your word! It is living and it is active, sharper than any 2 edged sword. Lord, you created everything by your word, and faith comes by hearing your word. You tell us that man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of your mouth. We pray that as husbands and wives who love you and are chasing after you, that we would be men and women of your word. That we would make it a priority in our lives. That we would read it and meditate on it. That it would be our sustenance. That we would allow ourselves to be transformed by it and renewed by it. May our marriages be transformed by it. We pray that our lives would represent what your word says. We pray that we would take the sword of the spirit which is your word and use it to fight against the schemes of the devil. Lord, your word is good and gift for everyone. May we read it, may we know it, and may we live it out daily. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey! We're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part four of the Marriage After God series and we're going to be talking with Jerrad and Laila Lopes about our relationship with the Bible. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith everyday. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life [Aaron] love [Jennifer] and power [Aaron] That can only be found by choosing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us today. We just want to take a moment and ask you to leave a review for the Marriage After God podcast. So if you've been encouraged by this podcast, if you want to support this podcast, that's just one great way that Aaron and I would love to invite you to do that. It's really quick. You just scroll down to the bottom of the app, leave a star-rating review or a comment review and we really appreciate that. [Aaron] And then the reason we're doing this 16 part series with all these interviews is because we're launching our book "Marriage After God" and we're excited to get it in your hands. And so if you want to take a moment and go to shop.marriageaftergod.com, either now or after the podcast, and pick up your copy of our new book. Jennifer and I wrote it. We wrote it for you and it's to encourage your marriage to chase boldly after Christ's plan and mission for your marriage. And so that's what this podcast is about and we're gonna be talking about Chapter 4 today with Jerrad and Laila Lopes. Welcome to the show guys. [Laila] Hello, thank you. [Aaron] We're so happy to have you guys. We've known you guys for quite a while now. How many years actually? [Jerrad] Uh [Laila] Probably three? [Aaron] Three years? [Jerrad] I think [Jennifer] Four? [Jerrad] Yeah, like three years now. [Aaron] We've met you guys once in person. We've been doing You guys have been doing the podcast thing way longer than us. Jerrad, you're from DadTired, the podcast and the website. [Jerrad] Yup. [Aaron] And so, you guys have helped us on our journey of podcasting and just, it's been awesome knowing you guys and so we're excited to interview you both. So before we get into the ice breaker question and the interview questions, why don't you just let us know who you are, what you guys do, children, marriage, all that. [Jerrad] Yeah, well first of all, super excited to be here. We are obviously big fans of you guys and what you guys are doing to help encourage marriages. So really really honored to be here. Laila and I have been married for nine years this last week. [Jennifer] Awesome, congratulations! [Laila] January 2019, it's nine years. [Jerrad] Thank you. So nine years. We have three little ones as we're building our team. We have a seven year old son named Elijah, a five year old girl named Eden, and a brand new baby girl named Ella. [Laila] Two months old. [Aaron] Congratulations. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Laila] Thank you. [Jennifer] I love that you said building your team. [Jerrad] Yeah, yeah. So we're super excited about it. We thought we were done with two but once we decided we're not, like, we're just like, [Jennifer] How many more can we have? [Jerrad] Yeah, let's just keep having lots of babies. [Aaron] You know, God's good like that. Just changes our hearts. [Jerrad] Yeah, yup, yup. Yeah so, we totally see children as a blessing and we're excited to keep the legacy moving on and the kingdom advancing through our family. So anyway, that's our family. I run a ministry called DadTired and Laila is a nurse, an oncology nurse at the hospital. [Aaron] Awesome. Well we are so excited to have you guys and we always have an ice breaker question and this is just a fun way to get our listeners to get to you know you guys, to get to know us, but the question is for you guys. If you could have a second honeymoon, what would it be? [Jerrad] Do you have an answer to that, babe? [Laila] Um, I actually quite liked our honeymoon. We went to Maui. I had never been to any of the Hawaiian islands and I really enjoyed that. I would probably re-do our wedding if we could do that. [Aaron] You can, can't you? [Laila] I'd take a second chance at that. [Jerrad] Our wedding was terrible. It was so bad. [Laila] It wasn't so bad. [Jerrad] I didn't like it at all. [Laila] Jerrad didn't like it. [Aaron] You like your marriage though, right? [Laila] Yeah, our marriage is good. The wedding was not us, that's all. [Jennifer] I always think that [Jarred] The thing is, Laila, Sorry to interrupt you, go ahead. [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, I always think back to our wedding too and I think, well, Pinterest didn't really exist back then. So I think I would want to re-do it just for the sake of having my Pinterest board setup. [Aaron] Yeah, that's the problem. We didn't do know marriages, weddings looked like because we didn't have Pinterest, so. Well, we like. Laila and I met and then four months later were engaged [Jennifer] Wow. [Aaron] Nice. [Jarred] and six months after that were married and we didn't have a style yet. You know? We just didn't know each other very well, which is crazy to think about. And our friends didn't know each other that well yet and it really is a testament to God's grace and His hand on us, protecting us, because we really were still getting to know each other in so many ways. So anyway, now that we've obviously been in this for like a decade, we are like, alright, we would re-do it and invite more people or maybe different people. [Laila] It's just the style. It just wasn't really our, well we didn't have a style. We didn't have a "us" established yet because we were so, we had just met nine months prior to our wedding, but. [Jennifer] What about the honeymoon though? Would you do something different? [Jerrad] I'm geeking out on Southeast Asia right now, so I would do like two weeks in Vietnam, Thailand. [Jennifer] Aaron would love that. [Aaron] Yeah, I think we've known some people that have done that. And you could do the whole thing for like 500 bucks. [Jerrad] I know, I know. [Laila] It's a lot cheaper than Maui. [Aaron] Awesome. So Jennifer, why don't you give the quote from our chapter, this chapter, in the book and then we'll get into the topic. [Jennifer] So this is from chapter 4 of Marriage After God and it's titled, "Your Relationship with the Bible". It says, "A marriage after God is one that is eager to allow the word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit." [Jerrad] Nice. [Aaron] And so, this whole topic in this chapter is just, without the Bible, without our foundation there, without our hearts and minds in that thing, the very word of God, we won't know what we're supposed to be doing. We won't know how to know God and so we just wanted to talk with you guys today about our relationship as Christians with the Bible. And so, [Jennifer] Specifically your relationship with the Bible. [Aaron] Yeah, your relationship and then our prayer and hope is that the listeners would get inspired, would be encouraged, would be reminded of the importance and the vital place that the Bible has in our lives. That it is our faith, which is the word of God. So, you know, we'll just jump right in. So here is the first question. What is your current relationship with the Bible? And I know that's kind of a big question, but I just want to know, where does the Bible land in your life, as a married couple, as Christians, right now? [Laila] That's a good question. For me, it's been a bit of a journey. I didn't grow up a Christian at all. So I was really unfamiliar with it for the first 21 years of my life, actually. But after becoming a Christian, I was really in awe of the gospel and Jesus and that God loves me, as I had heard it, like, preached on Sundays. But I still, I actually wasn't interested in the Bible for a long time. My view of it was that it was, maybe just a collection of old stories or something. It just seemed really irrelevant. But now as a more mature Christian, I understand that it's actually, you know, as it says, the inspired word of God. Which I think makes it rather important. So I placed a much higher importance on reading it, learning it, and knowing what God's word says about himself specifically. [Jerrad] Yeah, and I would say for me, I grew up kind of opposite of Laila. I grew up going to church from the time I was just a young kid and so I remember learning the stories of God even as a child. But I think it wasn't until maybe, I don't know, seven, eight years ago where I started to realize, as you read the scriptures, that this isn't just a random book of stories but that there's actually a woven story in all of it of God redeeming everything back to himself and it's really this beautiful grand story and it became much more beautiful to me that this wasn't just like some stories where God was trying to get us to be more moral, behave better, but that He was actually telling a story about Himself and His relationship with His creation. So yeah, I think that's where we are now. [Jennifer] Awesome. So for everyone listening, just to encourage them, I like practical. I like to know what everybody else's routines look like so that I can look at my life and go, okay, what can I maximize here or there or do better. So what is digging into the word on a daily basis look like for you guys right now? What is, do you have some routines put in place? [Jerrad] Yeah. [Laila] Yeah we do. It's about to change a bit for me. I still work. I work two or three days a week usually and I commute about 45 minutes to an hour each way. So I use that time, just as a practical way to get into the Bible, I listen to it through some audible app or the Bible on audio and that's been really helpful. It's just a quiet time. You know, we have three kids including an infant. So there's not a lot of quiet time around here. But for me that's been really a helpful and practical way is just in my commute. [Aaron] That's a great tip. [Jerrad] Yeah, we use that. So last year we read through the Bible together from Genesis to Revelation and then we can kind of get into what that looked like practically if you think that that would be helpful. But this year, we are going through just the New Testament in a year and then next year we'll do the Old Testament in a year and then we'll cycle back through the whole Bible in a year. [Jennifer] I love that you guys are already looking ahead. Like, these are what our years look like. I just think that's so awesome. [Aaron] Yeah, and being prepared like that and having a plan, it does make it easier because you know where you guys are at and the whole family being on the same page makes it easier rather than, like well what am I gonna read today. You all know. You're like oh we're reading, you know, we're in John right now [Jennifer] Right. and we're on the same chapter and we're gonna talk about that later. [Jennifer] So could you guys share a little bit about that? Reading together as a couple. Not only how and when but how it makes you feel? [Jerrad] Yeah, I think, for us, like last year, when we read the Bible together front to back, we started out with really grand plans of sitting down and having an hour together a day and reading through the Bible together as a couple and with the family and journaling, and that just wasn't practical. It didn't work out that way. And so, we didn't want to give up on it. So we said, why don't we just keep doing this on our own as much as, like everyday we'll just read what the plan tells us to read, and then as many as times as we can do this together as husband and wife, let's do that. As many times as we can do it together as a family, let's do that. But we just didn't want to get behind and we wanted to be realistic with it. [Laila] If it came down to, should we just skip today because we can't read together, we didn't want to do that. So we just thought, you know, if we need to, we can still just make sure that we ourselves personally are filling up and then, as able, we'll get together. We did try and prioritize that, to read it together as a couple because it was really fun to see what stuck out to Jerrad and I think he enjoyed hearing what things stuck out to me. 'Cause sometimes it was different, sometimes it was exactly the same. But yeah, if it comes down to don't read at all because we're not reading it together or just get what we can when we can, then we just did it separately. [Jerrad] And the other thing is, so I travel a lot too for work and for speaking and stuff. So like [Laila] Yeah. [Jerrad] It was cool. And Laila works a few days a week. So it was cool to even know we were still reading the same thing. So even when I was on the road, we would still be doing phone calls and being like, what did you think of that passage today, what stuck out to you, or can you believe Paul said this, that was super convicting, you know? We were talking about it really organically all throughout the week and the year. [Jennifer] That's so cool. So I don't know if people are like me in this. But you guys talked about setting this goal of what you wanted it to look like and be like and then quickly realize that it wasn't practical and that you had to change things up or even go with the flow almost. And I know I have struggled with this in the past and really when it comes to anything in my relationship with Aaron, but you set these goals and when they don't happen like you want them too, I'm saying, I'm saying it as if it's not happening to me. But what I mean is I would get defeated or I would feel down and not want to move forward because it's not happening like I want it to. [Aaron] Yeah, like you failed. [Jennifer] Yeah, like I failed and so I think that this is just really encouraging to hear from you guys and to be reminded that goals are good and having expectations are okay as long as when you come up against them and things aren't working that people can still move forward and just change how it's being done. [Aaron] Yeah, so shift it quickly rather than just give up. [Jennifer] Exactly. [Laila] I would credit Jerrad for that because I am a bit like that if we've set a goal to read it together every day and now it's been two or three days and we haven't read it together then let's just quit, we'll start over next year and try again. But Jerrad's like, no it's okay. You have something you say about setting goals that I can't remember. [Aaron] What's that really good phrase you always say? [Laila] What's that good thing you say that is really helpful sometimes? [Jerrad] I have no idea. But what I do know is, as Christians, man, we can just get so caught up in being really rigorous and disciplined and we have to have our morning quiet time and we shame ourselves if we don't. But the point isn't that we read everyday as much as the point is that are we getting do know God, right? And that's like. Life happens. You might skip a day. You might like whatever. And obviously, it's cool to be disciplined and it's important. But even more important is are we getting to know God. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jerrad] If that ends up being a chapter a day, or a verse a day, or six chapters a day, whatever. Let's not forget what we're trying to do here and that's to get to know the God of ours. [Aaron] Yeah, I was gonna, this transitioned perfectly in what I was gonna bring up. Being marriages after God and chasing boldly after what He has for us and that He would use our marriages and knowing His word is the beginning of that because in knowing His word is knowing Him and what He wants, where He's going, what He loves, what He hates. And so I just wanted to ask you guys, because a lot of Christians could be listening to this and be like, okay they're talking about reading the Bible, everyone always talks about reading the Bible. Yeah it's important. I gotta read the Bible. I gotta pray. Those are the, quote on quote, Christian things to do. But it's so much more than that. It's not just, like you said, here's your reading plan because, to be honest, you could monotonously go through the Bible and not get anything out of it. But why? Why is it vital that the believer, that Christians, that marriages are in the word of God. What is that doing for us? Why is God desire us to know His word? [Jerrad] Yeah, so at the heart of it is it's bigger than just, I think what you said is so true, that as Christians we feel like, man I know I should be praying more. I know I should be reading the Bible more. I know I should be tithing more and whatever. It's these disciplines that we kind of get on ourselves about. But at the heart of it is we are all susceptible to making up our own Gods in our own minds. We don't drift towards good theology. We drift away from it. We drift towards selfishness and so often times, what happens is, we end up making our God look like us and he ends up liking the things that we like and he can tolerate the sins that we tolerate and he's not, he loves the people we love and he hates the people that we're mad at, right? He ends up looking a lot like us. And so scripture confronts us, right? II Timothy 3:16, it's useful for rebuking and correcting and training in righteousness. When we read scripture, we realize quickly God is his own person. He has his own personality. He is who he is. He is Yahweh God. And so we are trying to, if we don't learn who that God is, we will drift towards making up an own God in our mind and that is a really really dangerous place to be as a Christian. [Aaron] So we dig into the word. We learn, and I love what you said because we do make up our own gods. When we just, and this is where a lot of Christians are today and I pray that my listeners aren't there. But if they are, I pray that this snaps them out of it and says, oh we need to find out who God is, not who we think God is. But knowing who God is, what does that do to the Christian? What does that do in our lives when we're like, oh. Laila, you mentioned that you met the love of God and you're like, He loves me. And at first you weren't like, and you heard that from the pulpit. You heard that from pastors and from church. But you weren't interested in the word of God and then all of a sudden you were like, wait a minute. The word of God is who God is. You know? [Laila] Right, exactly. Well I think if I would have just stuck with what this pastor had said to me or what the Christians are saying to me then I would also be pretty susceptible to also listening to maybe what other people were telling me. Untruths and lies. And so I think having first been drawn in by hearing God's word spoken, then able to really ground myself in knowing who God is because of who God says He is and Jesus is and I wouldn't know that if it weren't for the scriptures and like I said, I would just be so easily swayed to believe who knows what if I would have just kept to what people tell me about God instead of what God tells me about God. [Jennifer] Now when you do hear people tell you things about God you can test those things because you know His word. [Laila] Exactly. [Jerrad] Christians say all kinds of really crazy things, especially on social media. Like God told me this, or just believe this, and it's like, that's not at all what God's word says. And that's why it's so important for Christians to know the word of God because even Christians, or especially Christians, will say things that are just like, man that sounds really great but that just is not at all what the scriptures teach. [Laila] They're like half-truths. So they sound really Christian-y and good, but not quite right. [Aaron] Yeah, I take the example from Christ when he's in the wilderness being tempted by the devil and the devil uses scripture [Laila] Mm hmm, right. [Aaron] to tempt Jesus. He goes to the very thing that teaches us about who God is and he takes it out of context, you know? Which is funny because this is what false teachers do today. They're using scriptures and they're drawing it out of context and they're using it to, like you said, create their own God from the scriptures rather than, well actually, this is why it's saying what it's saying and this is what it's saying and this is who it is saying it to. That we have to be like Christ. Knowing the word, so we can go back to the enemy or to these things we see on social media, and say well okay, maybe that is right but it also says this and so, therefore, that thing can't be true. [Jerrad] Right, yup. That's such a good reminder. And we remember in scripture, Satan has been doing that since day one. Didn't God say. Very first words we ever see from Satan was "Didn't God say". And so yeah. We have to know the character of God because you're right. The enemy loves to twist the words of God. [Jennifer] So talking about the character of God. Can we know God without a close relationship with the Bible? [Jerrad] I guess the only hesitancy I would say in that is there's so many believers who didn't have any actual Bible in their hand for a long time. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Mm. [Jerrad] Who had to hear stories about God and they relied on, maybe they had one Bible in their whole village, right? [Laila] Even today. [Jerrad] Even today that's true where the word of God is being taught orally because people don't know how to read or they don't have access to the scriptures. And I believe that God, supernaturally by the Holy Spirit, can continue to work in their lives and mature believers for those that are in the situation. But that's the exception right? For an American who's listening, who's got a Bible to say, yeah I kind of got a good idea of who God is, I kind of get the jist of the Bible, to say I don't really need to read. That's just foolish thinking. [Aaron] Yeah I was just gonna say that. We've heard that before and that argument, well there's other people that don't have the word of God. But that doesn't give an excuse to all of us who have multiple Bibles and we can literally go to a hotel room [Jerrad] Right. [Aaron] and there is a Bible in the drawer. We can go to the store and get a Bible. People give out free Bibles. You can to your church. They'll probably give you a Bible. [Jerrad] Right. [Aaron] So we don't get to have the excuse of like, yeah. [Laila] Right. [Jerrad] So if you're listening right now and you don't have a Bible, I will send you one. Like that, there is zero excuse and I know you guys would too. [Aaron] So Laila and Jerrad, you guys were talking about, when you got married very quickly and how you guys hadn't established an "us" yet and that's why you couldn't do the wedding, you didn't have a style for the wedding, you're like who are we gonna invite, what does this thing look like? But things are much different now because you know each other and I just was trying to, I wanted to highlight that again because, we can know, you know the question was can you have a close relationship with God without the Bible. And I like your answer, no, I don't think we can. But the Bible does tell us, in Romans, that we can know of God just by nature itself. Just by creation itself. But that does not tell us who God is. So we can experience God. Any person in any village anywhere can know that there is a God. Which is what Atheists they have to just literally deny that there is a God. They can't just assume that there's not because there is no, the world is proof of it. But to know God, just like when you guys were getting married, you guys didn't yet know each other, we couldn't know God without knowing what He's said because that would be like being married and you guys never talking. Jerrad never explaining who his family is and showing you who they are and never telling you things from the past and how he thinks and things he's done. And you literally just, you live together and you have no clue who Jerrad is. Yeah, you're married. [Laila] Right. [Aaron] You're connected with him but, that's not a very fruitful marriage, right? [Laila] Right. [Aaron] So I wanted to bring that up, that beautiful analogy. But now you guys know each other, and you guys are consistently knowing each other and that should be the heart of the marriage after God is that we, whether we know everything now, and whether we're in the word of God four hours a day, whatever that looks like, that we have a desire to go that direction. And it sounds like that's where you guys are at. [Laila] Yeah, I would say. Right, it would be the same. I mean, that is a good analogy. If I had married Jerrad and in the first year decided that I know everything there is about Jerrad because now I've been married to him for a year. That's crazy. Every day that goes by, I am changing and when I interact with Jerrad, I learn about him. Something new about him. I mean almost daily we just learn the nuances and I think it's that way with scripture too. Last year we read through the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, and I am certain that when we read through it again, I am going to learn it in a totally different way as opposed to have having just assumed that I know what I need to know and be done with it. I mean they say it's the living word of God. It's not changing but I am and the way that I, the way that God speaks to me through His word changes every time I read even the same scripture, over and over. It's different each time. [Jennifer] I love that you give that picture that it doesn't change but I am. Like, I change because of it. So I want to kind of dig a little personal here and just ask you guys in what ways has the word of God transformed your marriage? [Laila] Well I'm reminded through scripture who God is and what He's already done and so I can count on what I know He can do. You know, like we said, we've been married for nine years and a couple years ago we had a really really hard season in marriage. It's really part of how DadTired was actually born out of that season. But it was just, it was actually really awful. But I was able to pull from scripture what I know about God and what the Bible says about marriage and instead of bailing out like what my flesh would want to do and what my emotions were telling me to do is just get out of here, this sucks, this is hard, I don't like him anymore. I was able to just know that God can change hearts and I just prayed like crazy through that season. And like what your quote from the book, "allowing the word of God to transform them by the power of the Holy Spirit". I wouldn't know that power if I hadn't been in scripture. But I just was able to trust in the power of the Holy Spirit because I know what He's done. I know what He can do. And here we are. Nine years in. And way past that awful season. [Jennifer] What a powerful testimony. Like Aaron was saying, I pray for those listening. My prayer for those listening would hear that and be encouraged. And if anyone is in that place right now where things are, where maybe they're rough or it's hard to persevere right now, I hope that they would dig into the word of God and find the same hope and endurance that you found through the word of God. [Jerrad] Yeah I was just gonna say too, to kind of piggy-back off of that is, your whole book is called Marriage After God, which is really like, that title says I want to marriage my, or I'm sorry. I want to model by marriage after God, right? In the character of God. And so to do that you have to know what God's character is like. And when you read the scripture, you learn that God is a God who is relentless in His pursuit of people who constantly turn their back on Him. And he's faithful even when people aren't faithful. And so Laila, being connected to that truth, and the truth that she learned through the word of God and who God actually is, not who she wanted him to be in her mind, she was able to pursue me relentlessly even when I was not being faithful in my love and pursuit of her. And so, that's a testimony. That's much deeper than, hey, you should read the Bible every day [Aaron] Yeah. [Jerrad] because it's a good thing to do as a Christian. It literally saved our marriage. Had she had made up some God in her mind, she probably would have said, well God wants me to be gone because Jerrad's being an, you know, he's being a jerk. But I know who God is and I want to model my marriage after who God is and as a result, I'm going to pursue Jerrad the way that God has pursued me even if Jerrad's not fully in it. And as a result of that, the Holy Spirit worked and changed my heart. And literally, the reason that we're sitting here today, doing this podcast, is because of that. [Aaron] And that's what's amazing about the word of God. When the Bible tells us that the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword, and we also see that in Revelation when it's describing Jesus, you know this two-edged sword coming out of his mouth. And that it cuts even to the marrow. Like it cuts through our flesh. It cuts through our desires. It cuts through our opinions, our way of thinking, down to the motives and then it reveals to us who we are. You know? And that's what changes us because, going back to that idea of creating our own little Gods. You know, creating what we believe God to be. You end up with the conclusion, Laila, is that well God wants me to be happy. Therefore, since I'm not happy, God wants me to leave. You know? [Laila] Right. Oh yeah, I would have loved to have, at the time, made that true. Jerrad's not being what I want him to be. He's not making me happy. And yeah, God wants me to be happy so I'm out. But I just knew that wasn't true. How many times we've been unfaithful to God just in our walk with him and He just doesn't bail. There's just no way around it. And he says to, you know, love your spouse that way. [Aaron] Which is crazy. [Laila] I just had nothing else I could do and I knew I couldn't change Jerrad. I could beg and cry and you know, hey, don't be a jerk. But there was just nothing I could do. We were just in a bad spot and I'm sure I was not always pleasant for him either. But I just had to pray to the one who I knew could change Jerrad's heart and it certainly wasn't me or any made up God who looks like me. But just, like you said, the power of the Holy Spirit, that was it. And I prayed a lot. [Aaron] And he's doing it. There's people listening right now that are probably gonna be finding freedom and restoration in their marriages just because of this testimony. So thank you for your openness. [Laila] And to be honest, there as a lot of eye-rolls for me when people would say, just pray about it, just pray about it. I hated that because I wanted some action, you know? But we were just at the point that I thought I literally have nothing else I can do and I would set my alarm in the middle of the night and get up and pray. It was just. I dunno. I'm tellin' ya. I really didn't like when people told me, just pray about it. But I did it because I was just that desperate and it was those prayers have certainly been answered. [Aaron] Well I think of, so our pastor always says, "Prayer isn't the preparation for the battle. Prayer is the battle." That's how we war. And the Bible tell us to pray about all things and for everything and in every place. And when we don't just. The prayer that you're talking about isn't just, "Okay, Lord, just fix the situation." It's "Lord, what do you want? Lord, where do you want me? What do you want me to do? How do you want me to pray?" Man, and just in another encouragement, I love it, the Bible tells us when we don't even know what to pray for, that the spirit prays for us. And then on top of that, Jesus is at the right hand of God right now interceding on our behalf. Which is amazing. That you could sit there in bed and say, "I have no clue what I'm doing Lord, but I need your help" and Jesus is praying for you and he's saying, Lord help them. Give them strength. Give them courage. So I would encourage everyone too. That that's a great encouragement. Don't just pray. But pray with anticipation of what God wants and His will. So I want to ask you guys another question. You know, we're talking about going through struggles. Jennifer and I, that's kind of where our ministry was born from, was struggles we were going through. It sounds like the DadTired ministry and what you guys are doing was born out of some issues you guys were going through. But another thing we talk about in the book is that having a good marriage is not the end game. Having a healthy marriage is not the end game. Getting to the word of God and knowing the God is not the end game. These things that we're talking about is to do something. That there is an end in mind. How do you guys see that, you know, the word of God changing you, you guys walking in obedience to the word and finding that restoration in your marriage, where you're at now, how has God used all of that stuff and your obedience for his sake? [Jerrad] Yeah, I think that, just kind of going back to what we were just talking about. I think that when we live out what we see God being like, we give everyone around us a glimpse of that God that we see in the Bible. And so when Laila was faithful to me in that season, she gave me a glimpse of the gospel. When she was faithful. When our kids see us be faithful to each other even when we're not happy, but we continue to pursue each other relentlessly, we continue to pursue their hearts even when they're disobedient, we continue to forgive, we give them glimpses of the gospel and the good news of God. And then our neighbors see that. The people around us see that. It's living out what we see the God of the Bible being like that gives the world a glimpse of who God is. So yeah, I think that's what God meant when he said, be salt and light, and to represent me to the world. And so anything other than that is really telling a lie about God. Had Laila bailed on me, then she would be teaching our kids that like, hey, you can just get out when it's easy, or when you're not happy, or when it's hard, I'm sorry. And when you're not happy. And that's not who the God of the Bible is. And so it would be a lie about His marriage covenant, the whole reason of a marriage covenant was to, like you said, it wasn't for the purpose of us just being happy and building our own little family for the sake of joy and having a nice little neat marriage. But it was to give ourselves, our kids, and the world around us, a glimpse of who God is. That's the whole point of marriage. And so, we don't want to tell a lie about it. We want to represent that original intent well and to show off to each other and to the world who God really is. [Aaron] That's beautiful. [Jennifer] I have tears in my eyes. [Aaron] That was really good. [Jennifer] That was awesome. [Aaron] How would you encourage those listening today to get even closer to the word of God? You know, not just like, here's a set of rules, here's your reading plan. But like, why? Why should they be closer to God, God's word? [Jarred] I think that I would probably just go back to what we were just talking about at the beginning of the conversation and what we've hit throughout this conversation and that's that, man, I don't care if you've grown up in church since you were born, if you were born in a baptismal, you know? Or like you just gave your. That's a joke, by the way. Nobody's hopefully born in a baptismal. Whether you're born in the church or you just gave your life to Christ today, we are all susceptible of just making up who we want God to be. I've been teaching the word of God for a decade now and I still do it. I still want God to be, look like I want him to look. And I'm still confronted by the scriptures and the truth of the scriptures every single day. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jerrad] We literally just read a verse this last week in II Timothy that says you're always learning but never arriving at the truth, or you know, at the knowledge of the truth. And it's like, well crud, that's convicting because I'm always learning. I feel like I'm learning and yet am I actually getting closer to Jesus? Just don't be arrogant enough, even subtle arrogance to think that you know you can wrap your mind around this God of the universe. He is way to big for you to understand fully. And it's just vital to continue to understand who this God is and to chase after Him. The other thing I would say on that is Proverbs 1 says, I think it's Proverbs 1? It could be Psalm 1. One of the Ps. One says that if you, a man in the word of God is like a tree planted near living water, right? [Aaron] Oh yeah. [Jerrad] And so we all can tell when trees are planted near water. They're alive, they're producing fruit, they're green, they look healthy. And the ones that aren't? It's really easy to tell. Hey, that tree could use some water. It's dead. It's dying. I could probably push it over right? And you can tell people, Christians, who aren't near the word of God. They look tired. They look stressed. They look like they're burned out and it's like bro, it's not that you need to have this huge crisis and figure things out. Just go plant yourself near the living water which is the word of God again. [Aaron] Yeah, and I think of the parable of the seed and the sower and the different soils. And we wanna have the soft soil where when the seed is planted, which is the word of God, it goes deep into us. And if we're not, like you were just giving that analogy of the tree. We actually had a tree die a couple years ago because we had a dry winter and we didn't realize we were supposed to water it when it's so dry. And the ground was all cracked and it started dying from the top down because the roots were, it was probably like got some sort of root rot, but because the ground was dry and the water didn't go deep, the roots didn't go deep. And so it's the same with us. If we're not in the word of God, if we don't know the word of God, those roots are going, they're shallow. And we think we're going to survive on that as a Christian in this world. So that's a good reminder. Thank you for that. [Jennifer] This has been really great talking with you guys. We have one more question and it's something that we're asking everyone throughout the series and it's, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Laila] A marriage after God. I would say just remembering that your marriage isn't just for your happiness. I know we hear that a lot. Marriage isn't for your happiness. It's for your holiness. But that's just really true. Jerrad's not here to fulfill me and make me happy because I would have bounced a couple times and I'm sure he would have been happy to do the same on a few occasions over the years. But just remembering that our marriage is to point each other, and our kids, and our neighbors, and just the world around us, back to God. That's what I'm to do for him and he's to do for me. We just point each other to Jesus, make each other more like Jesus through prayer and just trusting in God's spirit and just praying that, over each other and for each other. [Jerrad] I would agree with all of that except that I would have never left you. [Laila] I know I feel bad because we keep talking about how I could have left, I could have left, but I'm sure I'm not always a peach. I don't always make you happy but thank you for sticking around anyway. [Jennifer] Well thank you guys so much for being on the show today. We are just cheering for you as you pursue the ministry that God has for you and your marriage and also online. We would like to encourage everyone to take a moment and pray with us and then Aaron will close us out. Dear Lord, thank you for your word. It is living and it is active, sharper than any two-edged sword. Lord, you created everything by your word and faith comes by hearing your word. You tell us that man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes out of your mouth. We pray that as husbands and wives who love you and are chasing after you, that we would be men and women of your word. That we would make it a priority in our lives. That we would read it and meditate on it. That it would be our sustenance. That we would allow ourselves to be transformed by it and renewed by it. May our marriages be transformed by it. We pray that our lives would represent what your word says. We pray that we would take the sword of the spirit, which is your word, and use it to fight against the schemes of the devil. Lord, your word is good and a gift for everyone. May we read it, may we know it, and may we live it out every day. In Jesus name, Amen. [Aaron] Amen. [Jerrad] Amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Aaron] Okay, so, everyone listening, we thank you for joining us on this episode with Jerrad and Laila Lopes. And I just want you all to go check out his podcast. It's called "DadTired" and you can get it anywhere podcasts are available. So iTunes, just search for Dad Tired. Podbean, Castbox, wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find him. And can you let us know if there's anything else that they can get from you guys, how they can connect with you guys? [Jerrad] Super grateful again to be here. If they just go to DadTired.com, we've got a free little eBook that we give away to guys on just trying to help them figure out how to lead their family well and there's a community to jump in to which a lot of guys in our DadTired community are also part of the Marriage After God and Husband Revolution family. [Aaron] Awesome. Thank you guys again for being on the show and we have 12 more episodes coming up in this series, tons of more awesome interviews, so we want you guys to stay tuned and we'll see you next week for next week's episode. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Order Your Copy Of Marriage After God Today! https://Shop.marriageaftergod.com We interview Dale + Veronica Partridge from Real Christianity Podcast Quote From Marriage After God Chapter 2: The War On Your Effectiveness "If the enemy can get you to question the things that you know to be true, then he can get you to doubt what you are doing." - Aaron & Jennifer Smith, Marriage After God “If the devil can divide you and your spouse, then he can conquer your marriage, stripping away your effectiveness for God” - Aaron & Jennifer Smith, Marriage After God Dear Lord, We pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness in ministering to each other in marriage. We also pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness in sharing the gospel in this world. We pray you would defend us against the enemy. We pray his plans to divide us and destroy marriage would not prevail. Protect us from the enemy’s schemes! Thank you for equipping us with armor so that we can stand firm in our faith. We pray our flesh would not get in the way of our effectiveness. Help us to have self-control and walk in wisdom. If we do experience attacks or hardships may you be our strength, hope, and endurance to run this race with perseverance. If our flesh does hinder us may we confront our sin and repent so that we may be vessels of your glory as we share with others the power of salvation in our lives. We submit our marriage to you and ask that you Use us to do all the wonderful things you have prepared for us to do. May your name be glorified. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're in part two of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Dale and Veronica Partridge about The War On Our Effectiveness. Welcome to The Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage. Encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Aaron] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one. Full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Thank you everyone for joining us today. We just wanna take a moment and just encourage you to leave us a review. That's just one way that you can support this podcast and get the message out about the podcast that helps other people find the Marriage After God podcast and it's real quick, you just gotta leave a star rating review, or you can leave a comment review which always encourages us. [Aaron] Also we just want to encourage you to get a copy of our new book, Marriage After God. It's what this entire series is based on and we'd love for you to read through that as a couple. You can go to shop.marriageaftergod.com and support us in that way. [Jennifer] So today we have Dale and Veronica Partridge, which are some of our closest friends, thank you for being here. [Veronica] Hi thanks for having us. [Dale] We are excited. [Veronica] We're excited, [Veronica] To be here. [Dale] Yeah, this is, I think ten years in the making. [Veronica] Just about. [Dale] In terms of our relationship. [Aaron] This episode. [Aaron] Oh relationship I gotta. [Dale] This episode probably, too, I guess. [Jennifer] Awesome, well, could you just take a minute, and just introduce yourself to everyone listening. [Dale] Yeah, I'll start here. We've been married, next week, will be nine years, and together-- [Aaron] On Valentines day. [Dale] On Valentine's Day. [Veronica] That's right, on Valentines day. [Dale] We got married on Valentine's day. Long story short, but we didn't intend to get married on Valentine's Day. It just happened which is, again, part of a bigger story that we'll have to tell later. But, yeah, we got three kids, five, three and one. And we are in ministry. Also, we run a podcast, and house church, and are in the thick of it in terms of trials in 2018. And it seems that they're bleeding into this year as well. So, it's something that we're excited to share about, and talk about what it's like to be in ministry, and also suffer persecution, and resistance, and illness, and some of the things that come with it. [Jennifer] So, could you just mention a little bit more about your guys' podcasts? Just, I'm sure people listening have already either been listening, or have known about it, but just in case they haven't, share a little bit about it. [Veronica] Yeah we have a podcast. It's called Real Christianity. Where Dale and I talk about all aspects of walking the Christian life. [Dale] Yeah and I think it's, we really try to come at it from a biblical perspective. I'd say that the number one review that people leave is that it's just bold, and they don't have that many places I think that, the number one crossover, is your guys' podcast. So everybody, you'd go just scroll to the bottom and it's like suggested podcasts, and it's Marriage After God. And so I think people are really looking for truth. Not watered down truth delivered gently, but truth. And I think that's what makes the episode, or the podcast little bit different. [Aaron] Awesome. [Jennifer] Awesome. Well we're excited to get to hear that boldness on this episode with you guys, and, yeah, we're just excited to jump in. [Aaron] So here's an icebreaker question, I don't know if Veronica has read this beforehand. It's, what do you think is one thing that your spouse likes best about you? [Dale] We can. [Veronica] This is a family show right? What do I think Dale likes best about me? I think he likes that I'm a submissive wife. [Jennifer] Oh wow bold. [Veronica] And not in a bad way, like. [Jennifer] That's good. [Dale] She is, she's incredibly humble and [Jennifer] Supportive. [Dale] Supportive, and she plays that helpmeet role that the Bible talks about, naturally. It's not something that she actually has a fleshly thing against. She really, the Lord has blessed me with that, in terms of just a wife who just falls into that role really well. And the evidence of that, is that she's been able to, you know, teach our daughter what that looks like, and teach some of the other women, who might not naturally fall into that, just by her example. [Jennifer] Wow, as in our own friendship, Veronica. you've been a huge testament to me, of what it looks like, and an encouragement, so, [Veronica] Thank you. [Jennifer] Yeah, I can say yep. [Dale] It's a ministry. [Veronica] Praise God. [Jennifer] Yep. And yeah Dale, what does she like about you Dale? [Veronica] What do I like about you? [Dale] What do you like about me? I think I would say vision, the ability to tell us as a family where we're going, to understand through the lens of Scripture. [Veronica] Yeah, give us direction. [Dale] And I would say joyful. [Veronica] Yeah, he is generally a very happy person. [Dale] Which I didn't know about myself really, until I was married. I just thought I was a normal person. [Aaron] Maybe you weren't joyful before you were married right? [Aaron] Dale's so much happier now. [Veronica] He's always been very happy, and joyful, and positive type of person to be around. [Dale] Yeah like in the morning I'm up, smiling, excited, jump out of bed, and Veronica is like-- [Veronica] I'm just more of a slow riser, need my time. [Dale] Give me a half hour. [Jennifer] Awesome, well, thank you for letting our listeners know a little bit more about who you guys are. We're gonna jump into a quote from this chapter, chapter two of Marriage After God. It says, if the enemy can get you to question the things that you know to be true, then he can get you to doubt what you are doing. [Aaron] Yeah and the reason we have this chapter in the book, The War On Our Effectiveness, is because you guys are actively pursuing God, and his ministry for your life, and using your gifts and talents for him. And we are too, and our encouragement to everyone listening is that they would do the same, in whatever that looks, whatever that looks like. And when we do that, there's, well, even when we don't do it, there's something keeping us from doing it. keeping us from being effective for the kingdom of God. And one of them is our enemy, you know, the devil, confusing us and convincing us that things that are true are not true. And so, we just we hope in this episode, it's not too heavy, but we wanna show the realities of the things in this world, and in us, that are keeping us from doing what God wants us to do. [Jennifer] And what our response should be. [Aaron] Yeah, and then, but also to encourage us that, hey, we all, all of us get to fight the same war, and get to take ground for God, despite it. [Dale] Yep [Aaron] So, that's what I hope to get out of this episode. [Jennifer] Yeah, so, going back to that quote, and you know the enemy trying to get you to doubt you know what you're doing. Have you two ever wrestled with doubt about what God has you doing? And if you did, how do you navigate those times as a couple? [Veronica] I'd say yeah, definitely, especially within this last year of 2018 going into 2019. We pretty much said yes to full-time ministry in January of 2018 and, within that week, we just kinda had attack after attack after attack after attack. Do you wanna expand on that more babe? [Dale] Yeah I mean we have had so much resistance. The first response in your flesh is to go, I shouldn't be doing this. Maybe I should just stop doing ministry. [Veronica] Maybe this is a no. [Dale] Maybe this isn't what God wants us to do. And if that logic is true, then the Apostle Paul was outside of God's will, because his entire life was resistance. I mean, it's listed off in Second Corinthians, it's just like, yeah. [Aaron]Yeah right. [Dale] It is a, I think this year was a purifying of a true understanding of what the gospel really is, and what ministry really is. I wrote a scripture down, John chapter 9, verse 3, it's when the disciples are looking at this blind man that Jesus is about to heal. And everybody's coming up with their own ideas of why he's blind. And they asked the question like oh, so, was it him that sinned? Was it you know his parents that sinned? Is this a generational thing? Is this just like a curse on this man? Is he outside of the will of God? You know these are the types of questions that his disciples are asking, and he responds, neither this man nor his parents sinned. But that the works of God should be revealed in him. And so that the purpose of this man's blindness, his literal illness, at this point, was to glorify God. That he would be able to glorify God. Maybe in this specific moment, but maybe in other ways, post this moment. And so, that was a really, this is becoming, the natural reaction. Like in the book of Job, is that, oh we've done something wrong. The friend that's saying, oh maybe you've sinned, and you need to repent, or maybe you're not doing enough work for the kingdom. Maybe you're not reading your Bible enough. Like, what is it, why you guys are getting this many trials? And, just to go, hey you know what, we didn't do anything wrong. At this point in terms of, the Lord's happy with us, but it's that we would actually glorify God in our trials and our suffering, in our illnesses. [Aaron] Right. [Veronica] When we are weak he is made strong. [Aaron] Yeah I love that. So going, talking about this idea that there's a war on our effectiveness, you know, we're talking about ministry, we're talking about preaching the gospel, we're talking about living the Christian life, moving his kingdom forward, his will be done on earth as it in heaven, right? You're talking about trials, which could absolutely be one thing that makes us ineffective for God. But, it's not the trial that makes us ineffective. What, would you say, is the thing that makes us, because we all go through trials. That doesn't necessarily mean we're being ineffective, but we can be made ineffective in the trial if, what happens if we, how we respond to that that makes us ineffective? [Dale] I mean, I think that, just, there's so many ways that you can fall away from the truth. And, you know, we need to be walking. It says, I believe it's in Galatians, you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh, or walk in the spirit you will not fulfill the desires the flesh, and I think that when you get beaten down in your flesh, from illness, from trial, from emotional strain, if you don't stick into the truth, I'm talking labor over it, let it pour and wash your mind with it, it's really easy that you'll lose your effectiveness, because you're walking in your flesh and not in your spirit. [Veronica] You become so discouraged that, yeah, if you are walking in the flesh you almost just kinda give up. [Dale] You live in your emotions. You live in worry. You live in discouragement. You live in pain. And without the truths perspective on those emotions, you'll fall apart. And so, it's a constant replacing the lies of the enemy with the truth of God. And that is a practice that I say you need to do before the trials come. You don't build a defense you know when the attacker-- [Aaron] During the battle yeah. [Dale] When the attacker is there. You need to be prepared for that, and that's something that we've wished we did more of, but you know it's training, training for these times. [Jennifer] So what would you say for all those listening, are some practical ways you can do that. Getting into the word. What did your guys' daily life look like? [Dale] Go for it. [Veronica] Currently? [Jennifer] Um-hm. [Veronica] For us with just being attacked and attacked we've been so worn down. We've been having to say no to a lot of things. Way, I mean we were generally very much yes people when it came to having people over, going out, just, we like being with people, and so having to say no a lot has been very norm, our new normal. Sticking to our routines, making sure we're getting to bed on time, and then just making sure we're in the word, as well. [Dale] And we're praying together and keeping a consistency there. I think that, you know, the Ephesians six chapter, verse on you know the armor of God. It's one of these, you almost like think of it as, oh what a really cool metaphor. When life starts to get real hard, that doesn't, it loses its metaphorical sense, and you go, I'm gonna make this very real in my life and I'm gonna read that passage just real quick. Not the whole thing but just the idea. He says in Ephesians six, 10 through 13, he says finally, my brother, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, this is a command that he's saying right there. Put it on. [Aaron] Yeah the believer puts it on. [Dale] You gotta put it on. It's not just sitting over there in the corner. That you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. And, in other words, if you don't put it on, you won't be able to stand against them. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this age. Against spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places. This is clarity. It's really easy to go, what am I doing wrong? Why like why is this person mad at me? Why is this trial happening? Why are we fixing this thing in our church right now? I can't believe they think that about us, like you can easily make this thing about an earthly matter. Like, oh, I didn't exercise enough, I didn't eat right enough, like, whatever it is. [Aaron] Yeah. [Dale] That's causing that. Verse 13, it says, therefore, take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all to stand. And then he ends this little section a couple verses later, and he says, for which I am an ambassador in chains. And he's meaning that literally. This is one of the prison epistles of Paul. [Aaron] Yeah, he's literally in house arrest. [Dale] So you put this little picture together, and you go, this guy says put on the armor of God, yet this dude is straight-up persecuted and in chains. And, so it's not like put on the armor of God, then everything's gonna be great, prosperity gospel here we come. Life's good, I'm going to the beach. [Aaron] Yeah. [Dale] It's put on the armor of God, and boom, I'm in jail. And so, it's a pretty interesting, counterintuitive thing to think about. [Aaron] Veronica what are some of the things that you guys, 'cause they're listening, they're hearing that you guys are going through trials, and attacks, and stuff. Would you guys just list some of the things that you guys have been going through, not that it makes you special, because, the Bible tells us that we are all going to go through trials, that there will be suffering in this world. You guys just currently happen to be going through quite a bit in your life, and I wanna talk about something about that, after that, but would you guys just share what you mean by these things? [Veronica] Yeah, so, literally, like I said earlier, the week we entered ministry, last in January of 2018, we got hit with influenza hard. [Aaron] It's like months wasn't it? [Dale] Like hospitalization. [Veronica] It was 21 days. 21 days of a fever in our house, Jen took me to the hospital at one point to see if had pneumonia. And during that time, my son, my youngest, was six months old, so I pretty much completely lost my milk supply, because I was so sick. After that, the next month, all of our kids got RSV, which is a terrible respiratory virus. One of our children has asthma, so this was before we knew he had asthma. So he ended up in the emergency room probably three times within that sickness, just because he could not breathe. [Aaron] Those were scary moments. [Dale] Um-hmm. [Veronica] Yes. We got the stomach flu for two weeks, you know, kind of scattered throughout everybody. Then our second son was diagnosed with asthma, because he is continuing to have these asthma attacks. You had skin cancer, I was bit by, likely, a tick, and contracted Lyme disease, and so, that's something new that we're navigating. The week after I got bit by the tick, we had a miscarriage. [Dale] Then Veronica came down with appendicitis in the middle of the night, I had to rush her to the hospital, the antibiotics from the Lyme actually prevented her from, the surgeon and didn't have to take it out. After that, I passed a kidney stone for the first time in my life which was, it was so painful, that I called an ambulance on the way in, someone was driving me, to see if they could give me some sort of pain relief, just to get to the hospital. And then. [Veronica] We almost had a fire evacuation, the day Jen gave birth to Truitt, cause I'm trying to run out to the hospital to be with you, but at the same time I'm like. [Dale] Yeah, that was like a raging fire. [Veronica] Grab that, grab that because there's a fire, just a few streets over from our street. [Dale] Our son almost drowned in a pool. [Veronica] Our youngest son almost drowned. You had bronchitis, or you had a cold that turned into bronchitis, and they were also checking you to see if you had pneumonia. [Dale] And then we got I came down with gastritis. [Veronica] Gastritis, and that's been months of-- [Dale] It's just been tough, it's been a-- [Veronica] Being healed. [Aaron] Tough's a little, a little light of a word. [Jennifer] I know I feel like everyone's just thinking back right now, taking the weight of what all that means. [Veronica] And that's, yeah, that's not everything, just last week our daughter, you know, our daughter had a cavity, and I was supposed to take her in to just to get that filled, and then, when I go to take her in, all of a sudden, literally within a week and a half of the last time we were there, it became infected, so they had to pull her tooth out, which was unexpected. And not that that was like a big tragedy, but it was just like one more thing, I'm just like, oh okay, so we're dealing with my daughter getting her tooth pulled out today. [Aaron] Well a lot of those smaller things, they are much larger when they're compiled with all of the other things. Now, in this season, 'cause you're still in some of this. [Veronica] Yeah, we just had the stomach flu last week. [Aaron] So, you know, but I'm thinking about like the bigger things, like you're still dealing with Lyme, and you probably gonna have that the rest of your life, and you guys are spiritually, and mentally, and emotionally navigating that stuff, and has there been times in over the last year and a half that you thought to yourselves, God we're doing all this for you, why is all this happening? Like these questions of like, almost well, like we don't deserve this? [Veronica] Yeah I actually just said those words to Dale yesterday. I was crying because I had already known that, we've already kind of known that I have Lyme, but to get the final diagnosis, I just got that yesterday. And so we kinda knew that but it also came back with, I also have a co-infection, which we didn't expect, and so I was emotional, and I was upset about it. And I told Dale, I was like, don't you think we've gone through enough? Like haven't we gone through enough? Why is this happening? And then I just have to take a step back, and be, like you know, I have to have a bigger picture perspective right now. It's not, this isn't happening to me, it's, something is going on to glorify God. I don't maybe necessarily know what that looks like right now. [Dale] The thing that I'm learning, is that you can't yearn for heaven, if the place that you're staying is great. And, that's been something that we've, when you read the passage in Revelation about, that all the tears will be wiped away, and there'll be no more pain and no more suffering. That doesn't really hit you, when you're on the beach in Hawaii and things are great. But it does hit you, when you're sick in bed, and you're just trial, after trial, after trial, and so. [Veronica] And not only just sick in bed, but we have three little kids. Like our oldest just turned five last month, and so we have three of them, and they're all very needy you know, you guys have young kids. They all still very much need us, and so being sick and dealing with our own trials, on top of just taking care of the day-to-day of being a parent, it can be exhausting. [Dale] Yeah, so it is just a hard, it's like the Lord is ripping out every false part of the gospel that we've ever believed, and telling us what it really is. It's it's not about prosperity or comfort, or blessing, or healing, and those things, they're in there, but the gospel is sent, the central part of the gospel is to glorify God, but it's sanctification, it's holiness, it's witness, it's eternity. Like these are the elements of it. Because, you know, and it needs to be universal. This gospel must apply worldwide. And when you have people that have cancer, and have AIDS, and have that are kidnapped, and taken away, and martyrs, you know that gospel's gotta to be true there, as well as it is on the guy that's sitting on the beach in Hawaii. And so it's just a, there's a quote, I forgot who said it but it says, it goes along the lines of, Jesus, it's hard to understand that Jesus is all you need, until Jesus is all you have. And that is where I think we've been, is it, you just go, oh, Lord like, I feel like it's the only thing I have on certain days, and so-- [Veronica] Totally I completely agree with that, and there have been definitely moments within this last year, where I am like, I need to read my Bible, like I need that time with him. Like, I need God, I need Jesus, and I need his Holy Spirit to speak to me through the word, just to get me through this day. Because, it really has been all we have many moments throughout this last year. [Jennifer] I wanna commend you guys, because for that list that you just gave us of everything that you've walked through in this last year. I mean, pick one, and everyone listening would be like, that's hard enough to make me ineffective, like, I, that's hard, and yet through as you're listing these things, I'm thinking on my end of all the times you guys still showed up for us. Served us, gave us, you know, meals, when I was postpartum with Truitt, or you know, just, you were there, and not just for us, but for a lot of people in the community. And, I just wanna say thank you, that despite the hard things that you guys have been through, you still live your life biblically, and through serving, and I think that's bold. [Veronica] The only through the strength that the Lord's given us. It's the only way we are able to do these things. [Dale] Yeah thank you I mean it's we teach, one is that we don't wanna become hypocrites, and so we've when you you read the word and you teach these things you see that Jesus did so much while suffering. And participatory community is difficult, it's difficult when it's when everything's good and so we've, we teach that, and I think the Lord's brought us through a season of going, well do you really believe it? [Aaron] Yeah, I mean, it just shows that God loves us. That he's willing to let us go through trials, and that he tests our faith. The Bible teaches us that, he tests us. And not unlike how we test our children. We give them opportunities to act a certain way, to believe a certain way, to respond a certain way. And so you know we're talking about trials currently, things that we have no control over, right? And how they could make us ineffective and, by what you said, if we're walking in the flesh, those trials will definitely make us ineffective 'cause we will crumble under them. You know that test, we'll fail it. But it sounds like if we, and the Bible teaches us this, if we walk in the spirit, we are not gonna gratify the desires of the flesh, and we can actually become more effective, by allowing the trial to do what it's meant to do. Sharpen us, train us, refine us. [Jennifer] And glorify God. [Aaron] And glorify God. So what are some other ways that the enemy tries to make us ineffective for the kingdom of God as in our marriages, like, what are some things, that if they're unchecked and if we're not aware, could totally destroy our effectiveness, remove us from what God is doing in us and through us? [Dale] I mean, I think about, the enemy is all about division. And we know that that's just the chief element and you know, Jesus says in John 17, Father I pray that they are one as we are one, so that the world may know that you sent me. And so just the his desire is unity in his church in his bride. And, in marriages, oneness, and the two shall become one flesh. And so there's just this division element of marriage that, when we become divided, it is, I think, a tactic of the enemy, how does a wolf catch a sheep? He divides them. [Aaron] Yeah. [Dale] From the flock. And so you know us keeping a really close communicate, you know what, it's not really exciting to talk to your spouse when things are all bad. And so, it's really hard to actually wanna go and have a conversation about our crappy life. Like that's how it feels like you know? Hey, let's go talk about this bad thing right now. And so, keeping a discipline, and I've always defined discipline as doing things you don't necessarily like, because it's something that's right. And so we have a discipline just to go I ask her several times a day how you doing? And sometimes she just gives me the quick answer, but sometimes she'll give me the full answer. And, so we work hard to try to stay unified. If we fight, get in a tiff, and we don't fight that often, this year's been harder, because it's just a harder year, but if we do get in an argument, we always pray. 'Cause if you can't pray together with your spouse after you're done arguing, then you're not unified. And, so there's things like that that we do, that we work hard to be unified. And then, I also I don't know if you wanna talk about just, community. Just making sure that we're in community with other people, not just ourselves but. [Veronica] Yeah, I think that's been a really important aspect for us this last year. Proverbs 18:1 says a man who isolates himself seeks his own desire, and it's very easy to want to isolate when you've gone through everything that we've dealt with this last year. But, we're making sure that we are in community in daily talking to somebody in our church, and then also, looking into the, looking to the needs of the body, in the people in our church, and ministering to them in the ways that we can, because it takes the focus off of us, and it actually helps you work into some, work in somebody else's life, and minister to them, and glorify God. And it gives you perspective, as well, of whatever is happening in your own circumstances. [Jennifer] Gosh, that's really good. Thank you guys so much for sharing that. So, how would you encourage those listening right now, to say yes to God, despite knowing that there will be opposition, despite knowing that hard circumstances will come, how do they, how can they say yes to God and, you know, have that courage to continue on, to keep serving people, to keep loving? [Veronica] I think you need to take a step back, and have a bigger picture perspective. Because, if you're stuck and you're focused on your current circumstances and trials come, it's really hard to get through. You need to put on the whole armor of God and have an eternal perspective. [Dale] Kingdom perspective. [Veronica] Legacy. [Dale] There's like multi-generational, like thinking about the kingdom of heaven. [Veronica] Like, yeah, I'm looking back at this last year I'm like, you know how many more people we're able to minister, and relate with, and empathize with, because we walk through so many different things in such a short amount of time. Yeah, I mean, God's gonna be glorified no matter what. [Dale] I think about, you know, there's a passage in scripture that the Lord, I feel like, delivered to me. I was praying and asking for a scripture, and I was like God you need to give me something. I was like in tears, and I flip open my Bible, and I put my hand down straight on Second Corinthians 12:9 through 10. And it's the verse of Jesus' reply to Paul after begging for his trial to leave him, and he says my grace is sufficient for you. My strength is made perfect in weakness, and he ends that section with, for when I am weak, then I am strong. Jesus' kingdom is counter-intuitive. Who's first? The one that's last. Who's strong? The one that's weak. And so, our perspective right now, is that we are the most effective we've ever been in ministry. Yet, we are the weakest we've ever been, and that is the, that perspective is so opposite of what our flesh wants to think. The alternative, for those that are worried about going into ministry because of trials, and or because of you know opposition, or because you might be persecuted for standing up for truth, I just go, I always tell people, what's the alternative? We have to remember that we are the beneficiaries of God's obedience, like, being obedient to God's Word. Not God, like, it's actually for the safest and the most joyful place that we'll be, is in God's will, under his word and under his ways. And I just go, you know, if you think being obedient is hard, try being disobedient. Try being outside of God's will. See what that feels like. [Aaron] Well yeah, and even if disobedience makes us more comfortable temporarily, it eternallydamns us, like we don't want that. We want to be with our Father in heaven right? I love that, so the idea is that our perspective, the encouragement to those listening, is have a heavenly perspective. Like the picture is not about us, it's that we're a part of what God's doing in this world, and he's invited us to be a part of that. And when we say yes to God, it doesn't mean you know butterflies and rainbows, for some it might, but it means effectiveness for the gospel, it means that we are obedient, wherever that leads us. And to some, it's much more suffering than others, and for some, it's much more prosperity than others. That's why, you know, we don't believe in the prosperity gospel, because it's not universal. But that doesn't mean some might not have, might have prosperity or not. [Dale] Sure. [Aaron] That's not how the gospel works. It's God's providence it's what God wants, and saying yes to him is the best thing we can do. [Dale] I mean, Paul, [Aaron] Yeah, trusting him. [Dale] Paul talks about that he's been in times of abundance and times of very little and we have to remember. [Aaron] We learn to be content in both. [Dale] Be content both, and we've been that way too we've had abundance and we've had the place that we're at now. But we we always like to pick our Bible character and go yeah that's like me. And I go I like to remind people, well, you know that 11 of the 12 apostles were martyred, right? You know that, like, the, all the prophets, not all, many of the prophets are martyred for standing for God's truth. Jesus himself is killed. The idea is that, do we really want to be like these people? Do you really identify with John the Baptist? You know, do you really identify with James and Thomas who was said to be crucified in India? [Aaron] Or Stephen stoned in public. [Dale] Or Stephen you know and so these are, I think that the gospel that we have in America, or in some of the developed countries, we've become so comfortable, and that's why the church has actually diminished. And where are you seeing the church growing? Wherever there's the most suffering. And so Afghanistan, Iran, you know, Brazil, parts of middle of the Middle East. [Aaron] North Korea, China. [Dale] North Korea, Southeast Asia, and so I think that there is a turning of the tide that's occurring here, that there is a political persecution, for sure, and we're seeing this. And so, yeah, your fear of effectiveness, well, the big question is, are you willing to stand for truth? I think that's the big thing that couples have to think about in their marriage going forward. [Jennifer] I think that's a great question for them to talk about. So, the last question that we have for you guys is, in your own words what is a Marriage After God? [Dale] You wanna read it? I have a little note here that I wrote down. It's a quote we say all the time so it's not an awkward thing. [Veronica] Yeah, we say it in our own podcast pretty frequently. It's two people who love God more than they love each other. [Jennifer] Perfect. [Aaron] Concise, I love that. And it's true, and when you love God and you wanna say yes to him, we're gonna receive, like just like a son with a good father. Like, we're gonna receive whatever our father has for us and we're gonna be okay with it. And you know we just wanna thank you guys for joining us, the insights, and you guys sharing vulnerably this season you're in, and how you guys are still pursuing God and not just turning your faces away from him, because he's not giving you what you deserve. Because, luckily, we don't get what we deserve, and he gives us grace instead. So, we just wanna thank everyone for listening today, and we want everyone to take a moment and go check out the Real Christianity podcast. Just go search for them that's Dale and Veronica's podcast. We love them, you're gonna be totally encouraged by the boldness, and the scripture, and just the way they are trying to share their life with the world and, yeah, so we're gonna close in prayer, and, yeah, you wanna pray first, Jennifer? [Jennifer] Dear Lord, we pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness and ministering to each other in marriage. We also pray nothing would hinder our effectiveness and sharing the gospel in this world. We pray you would defend us against the enemy. We pray his plans to divide us and destroy marriage would not prevail. Protect us from the enemy's schemes. Thank you for equipping us with armor, so that we can stand firm in our faith. We pray our flesh would not get in the way of our effectiveness. Help us to have self-control and walk in wisdom. If we do experience attacks or hardships, may you be our strength, hope, and endurance, to run this race with perseverance. If our flesh does hinder us, may we confront our sin, and repent so that we may be vessels of your glory, as we share with others the power of salvation in our lives. We submit our marriages to you, and ask that you use us to do all the wonderful things you have prepared for us to do. May your name be glorified, in Jesus name, Amen. [Aaron] Amen. [Veronica] Amen. [Aaron] So, we just wanna thank everyone for listening today. This is part two of the 16 part series for our book, Marriage After God. Please go pick up a copy of our book today, you're not gonna want to miss out on this book. It's shop.marriageaftergod.com, and also, stay tuned we have 14 more episodes and 14 more interviews, so, we'll see you next week. [Aaron] Did you enjoy today's show? if you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Get the Husband and Wife After God 30-day devotionals today. https://shop.marriageaftergod.com/products/husband-and-wife-after-god-devotional-bundle Quote From Husband After God on page 16 “Marriage is an opportunity to bring glory to God as you share with the world His testimony by loving your wife the way Christ loves the church.” Quote From Wife After God on page 117 “Being a submissive wife is beautiful, as it reflects God’s divine order. When a husband loves his wife like Christ loves and a wife submits to her husband, that reflection clearly represents God’s grace-filled love story. The benefits in a marriage like this are extraordinary. Why its important to do a marriage devotional together: Cultivating oneness and intimacy Get on the same page Growing in the word of God together Stimulates conversation Being ready in and out of season give an answer for the hope that you have Investment for marriage Example for our children you have something to pass on suggesting do this... Firstly, we wanted to share this information with you today because we are going into a Podcast series starting next week about our upcoming book Marriage After God! We hope you are pumped for this, we are and we cant wait for this book release! This series launching next week will give you insight into the book and of course, leave you with wanting even more! So before we get into that series, we thought we would dive deep into our devotionals for husbands and wives BECAUSE those of you who have already been through them have asked us what's next...which was a catalyst for us to write the marriage after God book...and also for those of you who havent had a chance to go through these devotionals yet or any of you who want to go through them again, we wanted to let you know that right now is the perfect time to do them leading up to the Marriage After God book release. We have about 4ish months till then which is ample time to get through the 30-day devotionals. A few things people have said about these devotionals: "Life changing - This book is truly a godsend! My marriage is better using the books! My husband and I read them daily and it’s helping us to grow in our marriage and closer to God! We were just recently baptized December 31, 2018 and this has been an awesome read for us to continue to have God at the center of our marriage. Daily this book hits home and I’m learning more about being a good wife!! Thank you so much for this book and I truly hope all Christian couples read these!" - Diamond S. "Just what our marriage needed! Awesome! It brought us closer together while also enhancing our individual walk with God. Opened our eyes to things we were and weren’t doing and being accountable. Very powerful devotionals! Highly recommended! A+++++" - William M. "Simply AMAZING I bought both bundles; Husband/Wife After God and 31 Prayers for your husband/wife and my husband and I are doing both together. OMGOODNESS, it really is good. Very well written and when I say these will open up your eyes, I'm not kidding. And get your steel toe boots on. These two books have helped us start off in a place where God can show up and take over. We have only been doing these less than two weeks, and God shows up every day relating these books to our daily lives. God speaks through people and uses people to minister to others and boy has he here. If you want God to show up and you really want to love God through your spouse and how to do it. These books right here is where you start!!" - Krystal W. *Dear Lord, Thank you for creating marriage. Thank you for considering our counterpart and complement. Thank you that we do not have to endure life alone. Not only do we get to live with the presence of Your Holy Spirit and our spouse, but we also get to benefit from living in community with other believers. May we walk together in unity as You have always intended us to. Please continue to draw us closer to Yourself and closer to each other. Continue to transform our hearts and our minds, so that our character reflects your character. Help us to intentionally invest in marriage by learning how to fulfill our roles as husbands and wives. Thank you for revealing to us why You created marriage and the purpose it has in this world. May this purpose motivate us to walk righteously every day. Remind us daily that our marriage is a symbol to this hurting world of Your powerful and unconditional love. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we aim to minister to one another in our marriages by being obedient to all that You have commanded through Your Word. May we be prayer warriors who do not neglect to pray for one another. We pray that as we make ourselves known to You and to each other, that we experience extraordinary intimacy. We pray for your will to be done in our marriages and through our marriages and may You be glorified. In Jesus’ name, amen!* READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're gonna talk about the importance of doing a marriage devotional together. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. Love. And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey, as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] Hey, thanks for joining us this week. We wanna invite you, as always, to leave a review on the podcast. The reviews, the star ratings, those all help other people, other marriages, find this podcast and get the content,. So if you enjoy what you been hearing, and you haven't done it yet, would you leave us a review today? That'd be awesome. [Jennifer] Also, if you've been enjoying this podcast, we would like to encourage you and ask you to shop on our online store as a way to support this podcast. So if you go to shop.marriageaftergod.com, you can see all of our resource there. We just want you to know that we wrote those for you guys, but also it helps support things like this podcast, so thank you so much for shopping with us. Also, I'd just like to highlight the discussion that we're going to be talking about today happens to be on marriage devotionals. So be sure to check out Husband and Wife After God. [Aaron] Yeah, those are our two devotionals that we wrote for husbands and wives to go through together. They can go through them separately, too, right? Yep. But we'll talk about that. [Jennifer] But if you're shopping on the store, you can check those out, and there's more information there for you, specifically on those devotionals. [Aaron] Awesome. So, icebreaker question, all right? [Jennifer] Dun dun dun. [Aaron] What is your definition of "and they lived happily ever after?" [Jennifer]Okay, so, we've talked about this before, but we're not really into this phrase. It's a hopeful and a happy phrase, for sure. [Aaron] Yeah, it's-- [Jennifer] But at the end of my book-- [Aaron] It's got a dead end on it, I feel like. [Jennifer] Well, I think at the end of my book, the end of our story, I'd much rather hear the line, and "they entered heaven, "and God said with a smile on His face, "well done, my good and faithful servants." To me, that's more powerful. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Than happily ever after. Which means that we used our marriage for His purposes, and not just our own, and in the process being happy is a byproduct of Yeah. serving Him. Yeah, just, it-- It might mean-- It feels one goal focused, and word focused of we're just going to be happy for the rest of our lives, and I don't, first of all, it's not even possible. The Bible tells us that we will endure trials and things like that, so when I think of it, I actually wanna reword it and say, "and they lived joyfully ever after God." [Jennifer] Oh, there you go. [Aaron] Like as a marriage, we're chasing after him. [Jennifer] Kinda the same thing. [Aaron] Yeah, but its with joy, which is more of, it's something that exists even when we're not happy. Because when things aren't easy and hard, we can have joy, but instead of just "happily ever after" like the white picket fence, just the American Dream, or just things going well for the rest of our marriage. We have a bigger purpose of, it's not just to make us happy, but it's to pursue God and what He's doing in His kingdom, so I would just change. Yeah, we've never really liked that phrase. It's not that it's a bad phrase. [Jennifer] No. [Aaron] It just doesn't feel deep enough Or complete. Or long, or long-lasting enough, yeah. [Jennifer] It's not complete. [Aaron] Alright, we'll move on to the topic. That was an okay question, we'll have a better question next week, one that's funnier I think, 'cause those are usually funny questions, huh? [Jennifer] Not always. [Aaron] So we're gonna be talking about our devotionals a little later, but we have some quotes from them to start off the episode with, and this is a quote from my devotional Husband After God. It's on page 16, it says, "Marriage is an opportunity "to bring glory to God as you share with the world "His testimony by loving your wife "the way Christ loves the church." [Jennifer] Okay, and I'm gonna share my quote from Wife After God, it's on page 117. "Being a submissive wife is beautiful, "as it reflects God's divine order. "When a husband loves his wife like Christ loves, "and a wife submits to her husband, "that reflection clearly represents "God's grace-filled love story. "The benefits in a marriage like this are extraordinary." So they kinda mirror each other, they go hand in hand. [Aaron] Well, now that's the reason we wrote the devotionals, was to highlight for the husband and wife, why they're married and why God has His order and His ways for us to follow. It's because we have a message to proclaim. [Jennifer] Mm-huh. [Aaron] We have a purpose in this world. Which again goes to the bigger picture of what we wrote Marriage After God for, which comes out in June, which is just that. That our marriages are a ministry and that when we walk the way the Bible calls us to walk. We actually proclaim His message to the world, which is pretty incredible. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] To think about that, our marriages have much more to do in this world than just make us happy, which goes back to our question, really. But let's start off the topic with why it's important to do a marriage devotional together. 'Cause I'm sure there's a lot of marriages out there, people listening, that are wondering like, "hey, we do our devotionals separately, but what benefit could it be for us to do one together? [Jennifer] Or maybe they're not doing any together or any at all, and they've been waiting for something, they're looking for something. We're hoping that this catches their attention and maybe inspire them to get started on one today. [Aaron] Yeah, so let's talk about some of the benefits, some of the things that come to mind that could be, that could come out as fruit, [Jennifer] Okay. [Aaron] from doing a devotional together. [Jennifer] So the first thing that comes to mind is just cultivating oneness and intimacy from the experience of doing it together. Right. So, focusing and being intentional in the act of doing something together like a marriage devotional. [Aaron] Right, 'cause usually, if we have books that we read at night, often it's just to ourselves. It's, we're the only ones benefiting from it, or enjoying it, but a devotional that we can do together. If it's in the evening or in the morning, or in the afternoon, whenever that works. It's an intentional time to be together in the Word of God. It requires conversation, introspective thinking, dialogue, lots of stuff that would go on, that which cultivates more and more intimacy. Yeah. Right? Instead of us just, I work, come home, how was your day, awesome. We actually can go deep and say, hey, what did you think of that scripture or how does that make you feel or hey, that reminds me of when I was a kid and... [Jennifer] Yeah, and just to take it one step further, when you consider a devotional, you're usually gonna find those kind of journal questions or discussion questions or, like you said, to think introspectively, that you can use as conversation starters. 'Cause some people, they want to share their hearts with their spouse, but they don't really know how to-- That's a good point, yeah. or where to start, and so a marriage devotional will usually take the hardness out of the equation and say, here talk about this. Right. [Jennifer] And both people can look at the paper and go, oh! Or look at the book or look at whatever they're looking at and say, that's what we have to discuss, so we're gonna talk about that right now. [Aaron] Yeah, so they could stretch our intimacy muscles. How deep can we go in the conversation? The things that we could talk about. Those questions are usually formulated to cause deeper discussion than you would normally get into. It's a good point, and you know what? Growing spiritually is a very intimate thing. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] The deepest part of us is our spirit and we're cultivating that with each other. Praying with each other is an extremely intimate thing. We're entering the throne room of God together, we are praying together, we are lifting each other's hearts up, we're hearing each other's hearts, and then discussing the Word of God together, those are super intimate things. [Jennifer] Yeah, growing in the word of God together, that's a powerful thing for a marriage to be doing. I think that we all should be doing that. [Aaron] Okay, well, of course. Like as Christians, we're called to grow and mature, but as marriages, as a single unit, as one, we should be growing and maturing together also. Not growing and maturing separately only. That should be happening, but growing together, and I think what's awesome about doing a devotional together, also allows us to be accountable to each other. Yeah. Right? If we've been discussing, self-control, or our anger, or anything that this devotional might be calling out of us, we can actually pay attention together instead of me trying to work on it privately, [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] and you don't really know what I'm working on. We actually could say, hey, remember the devotional last night we were just talking about this, like hey, let's working on that. [Jennifer] That's good. [Aaron] And I feel like you might've forgot the thing that we've committed to because of that question we answered the other night. So it helps us to be working on similar things throughout the day and keep each other accountable, and look out for each other's growth and maturity. [Jennifer] Another benefit is being an example for your children, and when those children become adults and they're married, you can say, have suggestions for them. Hey, we did this marriage devotional, we did that together. You and your spouse should try that. [Aaron] Yeah, and then they also see us, especially if we do visible, like in front of them, periodically, maybe not every day, but, hey, mommy and daddy are gonna do our quiet time together now, you guys can look at your books or go play quietly with your legos, and they know that that's an important thing to us, that we separate time to be in the Word together. It actually kinda convinced me thinking about it right now, we should do that more. [Jennifer] Yeah, we should. [Aaron] We should be getting away more together, so let's start doing that. [Jennifer] Okay, deal. [Aaron] I was gonna say, another thing I think about is, again, going back to the main purpose why we, our marriage exists, what God wants to do in us, is that there's a message to be proclaimed, there's a mission to be accomplished. I think of that scripture that tells us to be ready in and out of season, it tells us to be ready to give an answer for the hope that we have in us, and doing a devotional together and growing together on the same page, in the Word of God and learning what He has to say to us and what he wants to do through us. It helps us be ready for when our neighbor says, "hey, what's so different about your life, "why do you believe in this God of yours?" We're prepared together, instead of maybe you not-- Not knowing or... Not being ready or me not be in the same place. [Jennifer] Yeah, it's good. [Aaron] Yeah, but we would both be prepared to give an answer for our faith. [Jennifer] Yep, and the last thing I think of with all of these things that we've already shared about the importance of doing a marriage devotional together is simply that it's investment for your marriage. So, the quality time you're spending together to do it, the intimacy that you are cultivating when discussing difficult things or very deep things, and, like you said, being ready to share the hope that you have. All of these things are an investment into the marriage relationship, and when you invest into your marriage, you're growing in that relationship, you're building trust, you're building closeness, that bond between you, and I feel like that will strengthen a couple to go even further. [Aaron] Yeah, and keep going. [Jennifer] Like year after year after year. So I just wanted to make that note. [Aaron] That's good, so and the end result of pursuing God together, growing and maturing together, growing the Word of God together, doing a devotional together, all of these things to cultivate the oneness and intimacy and strength. The benefit and result is becoming and living as biblical men and women. [Aaron] We become more like what the Bible says. We represent that more, which has benefits also. When we just become the kind of people God desires us to be. There's benefits, and what are some of those? [Jennifer] So, you know, I just think of advancing as a Christian, and we get to do that together. So we see areas of our life that are weak, and maybe doing a devotional together could point to an aspect of our lives that needs to be transformed or worked on or practiced. Or cut out altogether. [Jennifer] Or cut out altogether, and we get to see us take steps towards growth in those areas. So we're moving forward not backwards. [Aaron] Yeah, when we walk in the way that the Word tells us to and calls us to, we experience more love, we learn about it more, we're filled more with God's love in us. So our marriage, we benefit from that, and our children benefit from that. [Jennifer] Totally. [Aaron] And our neighbors. The people that we interact with, there's more joy, more love, more peace. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] All those, you know, fruit of the spirit is in us. [Jennifer] Yeah, it's good. [Aaron] And that's a huge benefit of walking in obedience to the things that the Word calls us to. [Jennifer] Yeah, some other benefits are just, when you're working on areas of yourself to be more like God, I feel like He draws things out of your heart that need to be worked on, like being healthier with choices that you make, or being wiser, you know, like those kinds of things. [Aaron] Be better stewards of our resources, our money. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Which all benefit our marriage, our life, our relationships, and then the most important thing, and we brought this up a moment ago, is the Gospel, the good news about Jesus Christ and what He came to this Earth to do for us is spread because we are in His Word and we're growing. And we look for opportunities to talk to people about God, and to love on people for God, and to share our story with people. That's the fruit that comes out of us, it's an overflow of what God puts in us. So we're talking about the benefits of doing a devotional, of getting into the Word of God together, but is that, I think of the devotionals we made and how can we share with them more about our devotionals and whether or not they might wanna jump in today. Just getting in the Word of God. 'Cause even if you don't get our devotionals, ever, or anyone else's devotionals, being in the Word of God together is more than adequate. It's what God wants us to do, Yeah. invest in His Word. [Jennifer] And we don't have to over complicate it, like seriously, just open up the Bible, read a chapter or two and talk about it. Ask each other the simple question of what stood out to you, start there. [Aaron] Yeah, and we try and do that. Sometimes, some nights I just read out loud. We don't talk about anything, we just, I read out loud until Jennifer falls asleep, or until we're just like, okay, awesome. And usually it ends up in a really great conversation about something that was triggered by what we read. You know, oh that made me think of today when, or last week I forgot to mention, and we have these really good conversations around the Word of God, but you know, we've had a lot of people over the years ask us about devotionals and want things to do together, and we made two devotionals, Husband After God and Wife after God, separate ones, because there are some marriages where the spouse isn't in the same place and so, we've had many people just buy just the devotional for themselves and start going through and start praying for their husbands or getting into the Word of God. [Jennifer] Or sometimes they buy the bundle in hopes that the other person will read theirs. [Aaron] Yep, we've seen that a lot also. We've actually seen people say, "hey, I didn't think my husband was gonna do it," And then he did. and then he totally started doing it. But the main point is that you do it together. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] You get these devotionals, you read through them, and so let's talk a little bit about these devotionals. Why don't you start off and then we'll just dig in to some of the information about them and maybe people will love the idea. [Jennifer] Yeah, so like Aaron said, our biggest thing here today is just to give you guys a little bit of insight to our marriage devotionals, but overall just encourage you to be doing something together, because it will cultivate that intimacy and oneness. But we wanna give you some insight into our devotionals, just to give you an option and show you what's out there. So, I wrote Wife After God. The subtitle is Drawing Closer to God and Your Husband. It's a 30 day marriage devotional. I wrote this back in 2013, right after I had Elliot. That was a long time ago. [Jennifer] Yep, and, I wanted something that a wife could hold in her hands that would help her better understand God's purpose and design for marriage and her role as a wife and to see that reflection, that picture, that's talked about in Ephesians 5 of Christ's relationship to the church. [Aaron] Yeah, it started off with, we wanted to, you wanted to show wives the ministry they had in their marriage Yes. toward their husband. Yes. [Aaron] Which is what the Bible shows us on both sides that the husband has a ministry to his wife and the wife has a ministry to her husband, and the symbol, like you said, it shows to the world. [Jennifer] So I'm just gonna read couple of these, I'm not gonna read through all of them, but these are just some of the chapter titles, so that they can get an idea for it. God's Purpose for Your Marriage. The Need for Companionship. Ministry of Reconciliation. Perfect Posture. [Aaron] That's a good one. You actually get a lot of comments about that chapter. I do. Wisdom Calls Out. Who You Are Called to Be. The Parts of Marriage. Fruitfulness. Intimacy With God. Love Letter to Your Husband. That's what it ends on, which I love that one. But that's just a handful of them and we'll get to the Husband After God. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] After we kind of, summarize Wife After God, 'Cause I want the guys to hear what's in yours, which is, Yeah. it's just as good. So anyways, the way that I outlined this is share about a page to a page and a half of whatever that topic is. [Aaron] And it's usually story-driven, it's either from our life, or another story we've heard to illustrate the point. [Jennifer] Yep, and then it goes into a prayer for that day specific to that day, and then you'll see a challenge, which is usually a challenge for you and your relationship with God or you in your relationship with your husband. So hopefully those inspire you guys just to do something you either have never done before or maybe haven't done in a really long time to cultivate that intimacy. Then there's the status update, which I don't know if a lot of people see in books, but we've decided to put the status update challenge in there for people who want to share this message that they're learning with people on social media. That's another way that this message of Wife After God gets out. It can be a catalyst for people to ask, hey what are you doing? What is that thing that you keep posting about? And it just gives a real quick glimpse in one sentence of that day's topic. [Aaron] Yeah, it's also a way of solidifying and vocalizing some of the things you're choosing to walk in. So you're stating it publicly. I'm going to be or I'm going to do, and then it makes it a real thing. Instead of it just in your mind, you're like oh, I'll work on that some day. [Jennifer] And what I love seeing is when people tag me in these and they post a picture of their wedding day with it, or a recent picture. They do that a lot. They post pictures from their wedding day, which is awesome. [Jennifer] Or a recent picture of them together. [Aaron] Yeah, I love that. And it encourages other couples, they say, "oh what is that?" And they want to be a part of it, and it's just a neat way of spreading the Gospel, spreading the message of being a godly wife, being a godly husband and what that means. [Jennifer] And each day has specific scriptures that support the topics that we're sharing, which I don't want to skip over, but just so you guys know, the reason we didn't quote the scripture in there is because we want you to get into the Word of God yourselves, so we just list the scriptures. [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause people always ask, "what version of the Bible did you use in the verses?" All we say, well, we just put the references, not the actual scriptures, so it's all our content, and what's awesome is it requires you to open your Bible. [Jennifer] Yep, and-- [Aaron] Which is the focus. [Jennifer] The last thing I wanna share is one of my favorite parts of these devotionals and it's the journal questions after each day's, at the end of each day, and you can use these. We gave space under each question that you can fill it out right then and there or you can use them and fill it out in your own personal journal, or you can use these as discussion questions either in a group setting. So if you're doing this with a handful of other wives, or you can use them as discussion questions between you and your spouse to answer. [Aaron] Or all of the above. [Jennifer] Or all of the above if you wanna, that'd be awesome. [Aaron] So, I'm going to go through the Husband After God and pull some of the points. It's formatted exactly the same way, but the content is complementary. It's different content focused on the husband with some different topics, but some of the topics are similar, but with different content, if that makes sense. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] So you could totally do this with your spouse and you would have different questions that you can go back and forth on. You would have different stories and different points to pull from, even different scriptures, but the themes might be the same in some areas, so I'm gonna read some of the topics. Marriage By Design. Lead By Example. Your Wife is a Gift. Sacrificial Love. Set Yourself Apart. Be Brave. The Good Fight. Pride. Everyone loves that chapter, I think. Forgiveness. Words Matter. Prayer For Your Wife. Avoiding God. Walk in Victory. And then the last one is The Husband Revolution, which is a fun one. It's proclaiming that mission that we have as husbands and that ministry we have. But yeah, there's a point in the beginning, a couple, a page and a half or two pages, and then there's a prayer for that day, specific to that topic. There's scripture to read. There's questions for you to answer. There's a status update, like this one says, "I will strive to reflect the image "and character of God in my marriage." That's status update, so it's like a statement. Statement, yeah. I'm going to do this and you're telling all your social media friends that you're gonna do it, and then it also let's people know, wait what is he doing? It says #HusbandAfterGod, what is that? [Jennifer] Yeah, what is that? [Aaron] Yeah, there's a challenge on every chapter. This one says share and discuss with your wife what you are learning about the purpose of marriage. So boom, right there, there's an intimate moment that I get to have with my wife where I share with what I'm learning, what God's teaching me about the purpose of marriage. 'Cause imagine if I sat down, or you sit down, husband, with your wife, and you say, oh, you know, I'm learning that God's purpose for our marriage is that I would love you like Christ loves the church. She's gonna be like, what, that's amazing! [Jennifer] And yeah, imagine what that would do to a wife's heart? I know personally, it just makes me feel like, oh my goodness, he cares about me, he loves me, he wants to do this with me and with God, and I don't know, I just love that. [Aaron] I wanna read another challenge. This one's from, what chapter is this? This is from day 21, Prayer For Your Wife, and the challenge is this. Spend time praying for your wife. Share with God why you are thankful for her. Lift up any needs she may have. Pray for her character to reflect Christ, and petition God to protect her. So, the challenge is go find some quiet time and just pray for your wife. [Jennifer] Which we all need those reminders. Every single one of us. [Aaron] So that's the Husband After God devotional. And the topics in each one of them are focused on the wife's role, scriptures that are aligned with that, and then the husband's role and scriptures that are aligned with that, but at the end of the day, what they're doing is they strengthen the marriage overall, making the ministry of that marriage more powerful, and more focused on what God wants for it. [Jennifer] And there's 30 days or 30 topics, so you could easily do this in a month's time. [Aaron] Yeah, well that would be the challenge, is do it every day for a month, for 30 days. [Jennifer] Yep, so I just, real quick, wanna jump into a couple reviews that people have left for these specific devotionals, just so that you guys get an idea of the kind of impact that it's making from other people, and other people's lives. So Aaron, you wanna read the first one? [Aaron] Yeah, this one's from Diamond S. and it says this, "Life changing! "This book is truly a Godsend. "My marriage is better using these books. "My husband and I read them daily and it's helping us "to grow in our marriage and closer to God. "We were just recently baptized December 31st, 2018," which is incredible, [Jennifer] Wow, recently! [Aaron] Yeah, "and this has been an awesome read "for us to continue to have God "at the center of our marriage. "Daily this book hits home and I'm learning more "about being a godly wife. "Thank you so much for this book "and I truly hope all Christian couples read these." [Jennifer] Awesome. [Aaron] Which, I was like, yay, makes me feel good. [Jennifer] Okay, I'm gonna read the next one. It's from Crystal W., "Simply amazing. "I bought both bundles, Husband and Wife After God, "and 31 Prayers For Your Husband and Wife, "and my husband and I are doing both together. "Oh my goodness, it is really good! "Very well written, and when I say these will open up your eyes, I'm not kidding. "And get your steel-toed boots on, "these two books have helped us start off "in a place where God can show up and take over. "We have only been doing these less than two weeks, "and God shows up every day, "relating these books to our daily lives. "God speaks through people and uses people "to minister to others, and, boy, has He here. "If you want God to show up and you really want to love God "through your spouse, and how to do it, "these books, right here is where you wanna start." [Aaron] That one's a good one. I like that one, she said "put on your steel-toed boots." [Jennifer] I know, it's great. [Aaron] Alright, so this last one is from William M. "Just what our marriage needed, awesome! "It brought us closer to God while also enhancing "our individual walk with God, opened our eyes to the things "we were and weren't doing and being accountable. "Very powerful devotionals. "Highly recommended. A++++." [Jennifer] Awh, some people are just so kind, and it always encourages us and we feel like, awesome. We have given couples a catalyst to get into God's word together and to do something that's impacting their relationship, and I'm just praising God. [Aaron] Yeah, and our goal all along, has not been to replace the Bible. Our purpose of these books was to point people to the Bible. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Always pointing back to the Bible, always pointing back to God. [Jennifer] Awesome, okay, so I wanna move into this next, sort of, sessions. [Aaron] These are kinda like questions, Q&As. [Jennifer] Yeah, Q&As on... [Aaron] Oh no, they're FAQs, that's what it is. [Jennifer] Okay, on the topic. So, can these be read together at the same time or not? [Aaron] Both! We recommend them being done together. They could be read separately, or they could be read together, taking turns, but our sentiment is, hey, do them, and then come together and discuss the chapter for the day, discuss the thought for the day, how you answered the questions, do the prayers together, pray- [Jennifer] Sometimes they pray the prayers out loud, too. [Aaron] Yeah, so I would say both. Like we said earlier, there's some marriages where the husband or the wife are not there, they're not doing it. So the other spouse is just doing it on their own. [Jennifer] And the great thing about these devotionals is you can utilize them more than just once, go back through it again, you know? It's really good content, so it's not wasted, just keep going through it again. [Aaron] Yeah, they're good reminders of what the Word says about who we are and what God's called for us. The next question is can they be used to lead a small group? [Jennifer] And the answer for that is, yes. So, some tips for this. If you're gonna do, host small group, let's say that you have five other wives who wanna go through Wife After God together, we would suggest everyone gets a copy, just so that they can go through it on their own throughout the week, and then meet up, once a week for a month or two, depending on how you want to do it, and just use the journal questions, in the back of each day as the discussion questions to talk about. [Aaron] Yeah, and you might be able to break up the chapters, so like the first four chapters on week one, and the next four chapters or five chapters on week two. [Jennifer] Yeah, and you don't have to use the journal questions, You can just simply say, okay, what have you been learning? What stood out to you? That kind of thing. [Aaron] Ideally, they would, whoever has these devotionals, the people listening, if they have these devotionals or if they're going to get them, when they're done going through them, they should invite married couples over to their house, and start a little marriage Bible study with those couples. [Jennifer] That would be awesome. And here's the other tip, if you guys were to do this soon, there's even enough time, by the time you finish that small group, Marriage After God will be out. The new book, yeah. The new book, and then you could do that same group study With that book. With book. [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause that book is significantly different than these devotionals. [Jennifer] Okay, so I want to give one more tip and this is just a fun thing to do with your group, if you're gonna do a group. I did a small group, which actually led me to writing this devotional. I did it for three months with a handful of wives from my church, we were all young wives, kind of in the same season of life, and-- [Aaron] No one had kids yet, back then. [Jennifer] No one had kids yet. One friend had one young, young baby. So, anyways, we got together weekly, once a week, for three months, and the second to the last, or maybe the third to the last one, we made handmade invitations for our husbands. [Aaron] Oh, this is definitely a good idea. [Jennifer] We planned and prepared a dinner that we were gonna host for our husbands on that last evening and talk about the discussion questions and what we learning on that night with everyone. And so we thought it was gonna be fancy, we thought we wanted to dress up, we thought we all wanted to cook together. So we made these handmade invitations and then a couple weeks later, we all got together, we got there early, set the table, got flowers, made the dinner, and all the husbands showed up, dressed super nice, we were just at a friend's house. [Aaron] That, I remember this. That was a lot of fun and I felt really honored. [Jennifer] Everybody just, everybody felt honored. Everybody had smiles on their faces and what's really cool about that night is the guys actually, because they knew it was coming, they all talked and prepared on how they were gonna encourage us women and share how they've seen us change over that time we'd been meeting together. So then at the dinner table, everyone went around and shared. It was incredible, it was so awesome. [Aaron] It was really powerful, and very enjoyable, and the food, I can't remember what it was, but I remember it was really good. [Jennifer] Yeah, so you could do something fun like that together. [Aaron] So last question is, why should they read these devotionals now, as a primer for the Marriage After God book coming out in June? [Jennifer] So, first thing you guys should know is, we did write these devotionals a couple years ago, and when we get people who have been through them asking us what's next, we want to give you something. We've been wanting to give you something since they first came out. [Aaron] We've had four kids since then, so... [Jennifer] Yeah, we've been a little busy, but this was a catalyst, you guys asking and desiring this has been a catalyst for why we wrote Marriage After God. So I feel like these devotionals are the brief version. [Aaron] I think they're the first stepping stone. [Jennifer] It's like a stepping stone, because then, I feel like your hearts will be ready. More unified. And more unified for jumping into the message that is in the book, Marriage After God. [Aaron] Yeah, the Marriage After God book. You're going to be hearing a lot about this, so we're starting to talk about it more because as it gets closer to launching, we want you all to know what it's about, and why we wrote these books. And we wrote Marriage After God as a culmination of everything that God's been teaching us over the years about the ministry that God has for our marriages. And so these devotionals are step one in that. [Jennifer] Yeah, they'll get you thinking about the purpose of your marriage in light of God's Word. [Aaron] Yep, and by the time the book comes out, you'll be ready to take that next step into what God has for your marriage and where He wants to take it. 'Cause that was the whole purpose of writing the book was, we want marriages all over the world who claim the name of Christ, who love God, to recognize the power in the ministry that they have in Christ as a marriage, as one. And so we're super excited about that. [Jennifer] Yeah, I think another thing is, is if you do these devotionals together, it will start to build that habit of spending time together and reading together and asking each other some deep questions. So that when the Marriage After God book comes out, that habit will already be there and you'll want to replace the devotionals with the book. So I think that it's just a natural step. [Aaron] Yeah, and I wanna go, I got really excited about something. I wanna go right back to the small group subject again. I love that idea, and I actually wanna challenge our listeners. We weren't planning on doing this, but I want to challenge our listeners to get a copy of our devotionals, the Husband and Wife After God devotionals. Go through them, and at the end of the 30 days, during the 30 days, be praying and asking God, what other couples are in your life that He wants you to invite to a study at your house, a Marriage After God study? And then invite them to get the books. It could be two couples, it could be one couple, it could be five couples. I wouldn't do more than maybe six couples, that's a lot of people. Do multiple studies, maybe, but I just wanna challenge you to be praying through the books as you do them, and asking God who it is. You might be thinking right now, oh my gosh, I have this friend, these friends, they would love to do this with us, and start a Bible study and walk through these studies, these books together and see what God has for all your marriages. What we're trying to start here is a movement of marriages after God, of marriages who desire to grow the kingdom of God, to see Him move through their marriages, and that we would use our marriages for ministry for Him. That's why we started the podcast. That's why we started our blogs. All of this goes back to that, that we're moving the kingdom forward with God, and that we see our marriages as the ministries He's given us and the tools that He's given us to serve Him. [Jennifer] Mmm, that's good. [Aaron] So would you agree with that challenge? [Jennifer] I agree, I like that challenge, and just to simplify it and make it easy for them to understand. Just tell these people it'll be four or six weekS, whatever you want the timing to be on it, which is not a long time to meet together. It's not at all. [Jennifer] It's once a week, for four weeks, or once a week for six weeks. [Aaron] Try the four weeks, I think the four week one, just one month to see if it works, see if you're like wow, this is awesome. And but first, I would say you go through the devotionals as a couple first. And during that 30 days, you pray, and fast if need to, and you ask the Lord. Say, Lord, reveal to us, who is it? And I know the Lord will. The moment we ask God, like God use me, He's like okay, He wants to use us. [Jennifer] Marriages need it, you guys, that's why we're doing this, because marriages need the support, the encouragement of other believers, they need to know why God has them together. [Aaron] The reminder of not just happily ever after, but it's that we're chasing after God together, that we're building His kingdom together, that we have a mission in this world and our marriage is the tool to accomplish the mission. Yeah, and going back to the message of the Marriage After God book, that's what the whole book's about, what is the mission God has for us? [Jennifer] And if you guys have already been through these devotionals, and this is old news to you, because you've already been through these, I want you to go dust them off, go get them, and go do exactly what Aaron is challenging you to do right now and consider- [Aaron] Let's start our movement. [Jennifer] Yeah, consider who you can invite over to go through them with you. [Aaron] Ooh, how can they let us know if they're doing it? 'Cause actually I would love to know. I'd love to see the groups-- Groups, a group photo! We wanna see a group photo- Tagged! [Jennifer] @MarriageAfterGod. [Aaron] Yeah, tag @MarriageAfterGod and #MarriageAfterGod, and we will look 'em and actually I think we'll repost them. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Not all of them, but we'll repost a lot of them. So if you do this, please let us know. We'd love to be praying for you, being part of it, and we are praying for you, but if you're going to be doing a group, we want to pray for your group, we want to pray for your Bible study. I'm getting all excited, okay. [Jennifer] Okay, so last note before we go into the prayer for this episode, and that is, get ready, because we have 16 weeks ahead of us of a book series for Marriage After God that we're going to be diving into starting next week with the introduction. [Aaron] That's true, and you know what's awesome? We forgot to mention this, this is episode 52. This is, we've been doing this for one year. Woohoo! Today. [Jennifer] Thank you guys for following along, and listening, this is awesome. [Aaron] Yeah, so for the next 16 episodes, we're going to be talking about content from the book. [Jennifer] And it's actually 17, 'cause it's 16 chapters, plus the introduction, so 17 weeks. [Aaron] So you're going to be learning a lot about the message of the Marriage After God book, which is essentially of the Marriage After God podcast, and how our hearts is to start a movement in Christian marriages around the world. And we'd love for you to be a part of that, and to take ownership in that, and know that God's gonna do something amazing. And we're excited to see what that is. So before we close, as always, we've dedicated to pray for you and your marriage and for what God's doing, and so Jennifer would you like to pray for us? [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for creating marriage. Thank you for considering our counterpart and complement. Thank you that we do not have to endure this life alone. Not only do we get to live with the presence of Your Holy Spirit and our spouse, but we also get to benefit from living in community with other believers. May we walk together in unity as You have always intended us to. Please continue to draw us closer to Yourself and closer to each other. Continue to transform our hearts and our minds so that our character reflects Your character. Help us to intentionally invest in marriage by learning how to fulfill our roles as husbands and wives. Thank you for revealing to us why you created marriage and the purpose it has in this world. May this purpose motivate us to walk righteously every day. Remind us daily that our marriage is a symbol to this hurting world of your powerful and unconditional love. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives, we aim to minister to one another in our marriages by being obedient to all that You have commanded through Your Word. May we be prayer warriors who do not neglect to pray for one another. We pray that as we make ourselves known to You and to each other, that we experience extraordinary intimacy. We pray for Your will to be done in our marriages and through our marriages and may You be glorified. In Jesus' name, Amen. [Aaron] Amen, thank you Lord. We're excited to see pictures. We're excited to see what God's gonna be doing in your marriage through these devotionals, through the Bible study that you're gonna start, I'm making it a definitive. [Jennifer] And tag @MarriageAfterGod so we can see and cheer you along! [Aaron] Yeah, and just start praying and asking God how He wasn't to use you and your spouse. That's our heart, that's our goal, that's why we do this, is that you would recognize the place that you have in the body of Christ, and that it's a significant one. Doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter where you live, God's got a plan for you, He's got a purpose for your marriage, for your life individually, and you are a part of the body of Christ. And God's got work for us to do, [Jennifer] Let's do it. [Aaron] as his children. Yeah, so let's do it and we love you guys. We thank you for joining us on our 52nd episode, one year in, here's to another year, and we'll see you next week! Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

NOTE: We don't share any graphic detials in this episode but this is not an episode to listen to around children. To support this podcast please pick up one of our marriage books at https://shop.marriageaftergod.com In this episode, I share my history with an addiction to pornography and how it affected Jennifer. Jennifer And I both discuss how it made her feel and how it affected every aspect of our marriage but ultimately how the Lord freed me from this sin. Our prayer is that by being open and vulnerable about this sensitive and taboo subject that a light would be shown and that many other men and women would find freedom and healing. READ: [Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God, [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're gonna share our personal journey with pornography in our marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God Podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith everyday. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. Love. And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Thank you all for joining us this week on our podcast and we just wanted to invite you to leave us a review. This is just one way to help us get the word out about the Marriage After God podcast and let's other people find us and we really appreciate it, it just encourages our hearts. We love 'em. [Jennifer] So if you could just scroll to the bottom of the podcast app and leave us a review. [Aaron] Yeah a star rating is the easiest way to do it. All you have to do is hit a star, but if you have extra time we'd love a text review as well. [Jennifer] Thank you guys. [Aaron] Hey we wanna thank you for joining us and we also want to invite you if you've been enjoying the podcast to consider supporting our podcast. And the way that you do that is go to shop.marriageaftergod.com and pick up one of our books that we've written. The ones we wanna talk about today is our 31 Prayers for My Husband and 31 Prayers for My Wife bundle. We call it our prayer challenge and we encourage couples to do it. Thousands of couples have already gone through the challenge and they've loved it. They go through it multiple times actually a year so go to shop.marriageaftergod.com, pick up a copy of our 31 Marriage Prayers Challenge and that would support our podcast, thank you. [Jennifer] Okay moving right along, we are gonna jump into our icebreaker question, which is which one of you said I love you first? [Aaron] That's an easy one. [Jennifer] Give them a second to guess. You guys guess. Jennifer. Who is me. I couldn't wait any longer. [Aaron] Did I actually say I love you back? [Jennifer] So what happened was we were, I don't know if we were on a date or just hanging out but I remember I was getting out of your car-- [Aaron] I'm up in front of your house by your red mailbox. [Jennifer] No, actually Aaron has a terrible memory. [Aaron]Oh, it's not right there? -We were-- Where was this at? [Jennifer] It's okay honey. I'm not mad. We were in the church parking lot. Oh, oh. I was getting out of your black Honda, and I was getting into my car. And I got out, and I stood up-- I remember now. [Jennifer] And then I leaned back in, and I said, "Oh, by the way, I love you." 'Cause I was waiting, waiting-- Did I skid away, and the door slammed shut, or? [Jennifer] No, that didn't happen. But you did let a very long pause happen before you said anything, and it made me feel super awkward, and I said, I might have even said, "Okay, I'm gonna go now," or something like that, and then you were like, "I'm just kidding." You start laughing and you're like, "I love you too." Almost as if I had already known, but you never said it. [Aaron] Well, you did already know. [Jennifer] Yeah, I did. But it was-- That's really funny I made you wait. It felt good to have said it, and I'm glad I said it. I don't remember-- Yeah and we say it a lot now. Yeah, I do love you. And I won't make you wait. I'll tell you all day every day. [Jennifer] All day every day? [Aaron]Yeah. Oh good. So Jennifer said I love you first, and then I made her wait a few seconds-- [Jennifer] Super awkward. Super long seconds. And then you laughed, and then you said I love you back. [Aaron] Yeah. All right. So why don't we do a quick quote from a book. Okay. And this book is your book. [Jennifer] Yeah, we chose one from The Unveiled Wife, so it's not a typical quote that we've kind of been sharing with you guys. It's a little bit more personal. Okay this is found in The Unveiled Wife on page 153, and it says, "We were devoted to making ourselves "known to God and known to each other. "I finally felt free from the bondage "that was holding me captive. "I could breathe deeply without fear "of someone finding out who I was "because I had chosen to make myself known." [Aaron] And this was a part of our story where we were divulging to each other our deep dark secrets. Where we were sharing our sins, things we were struggling with. Actually, divulged everything. Talked about everything in our hearts. That was a pretty pivotal moment in our marriage. And that goes into what we're gonna be talking about, that's why we picked the quote because we're gonna be talking about that season of our marriage, we're gonna be talking about a pretty large season actually, of my life, and it has to do with pornography. [Jennifer] Yeah, which I actually, well we both didn't wanna do this episode. [Aaron] We've been putting it off for months. [Jennifer] Because I don't know why, it's just, I think it's one of those topics that's hard to dive into and expose, but like that quote said, I chose to make myself known, in our marriage, you've chose to make yourself known, and I've, I believe that that created a safe place for trust to be built, and I think it's really important for husbands and wives to hear our story and to hear, just to hear how we've exposed our hearts to each other, and hopefully they could do that too. [Aaron] And not only have we exposed it to each other, but we've exposed it to others. We've exposed the things that we've gone through, our dark secrets to other believers and through our platforms, there are ministries of the world. And one of the things that I love about how we are, you use the word expose, I love that word. The Bible tells us to drag that which is in the darkness into the light because that which is in the light becomes light. And that was our sin. The more it was hidden, the easier it was to keep doin' it. And so we've been draggin' it out ever since and keeping it out in public, keeping it out in the light so that it doesn't live in us. So I wanna start off by reading a scripture. And it's in Ephesians five verse three. It says, "But sexual immorality and all impurity "or covetousness must not even be named among you, "as is proper among saints." Paul's telling the Ephesians, you're saints, you're saints of the most high, and sexual morality and impurity and covetousness, they should not even be named among you. Meaning not even a little bit. In other translations it says there shouldn't be a hint of sexual morality. That's insane. Because in our current culture, in our current world, in my own life experience, I had not just a hint of sexual morality in my life, I was drenched in sexual morality. And Ephesians five verse three is very clear and it's, this isn't the only scripture that talks about this, that there shouldn't even be a hint of it among Christians. [Jennifer] Which is so weird because I mean, through our online platforms, we've shared about the topic of pornography before, and people even Christians, have shared their acceptance of it. And I think we're living in a culture, in an age where it's widely accepted even if people aren't talking about it. [Aaron] Yeah, we're desensitized to the grotesqueness of our sin. [Jennifer] Which is another reason why we knew we had to do this episode. We need to be willing to talk about it. [Aaron] Yeah, pretty much every time we've ever posted about pornography and how it's wrong, and shouldn't even be in a marriage, and how, and not that we're coming from perfection, we're coming from, well actually no, we've experienced this, it's wrong, and the Bible says we shouldn't do it, and God hates it. Christians, people claiming to be Christians in our comments will say, "Well, you're wrong actually, it's fine as long as." And then fill in the blank. And I'm like blown away. But we shouldn't be surprised by that 'cause the world's being, the world's gonna be deceived. So our heart today is to expose our story, and I hope my, our prayer we just prayed before this is that you listening, if this is your story, would begin to walk in freedom today. So that it, that sexual morality and impurity and covetousness might not even be named in your marriage. That there would be no hint of it. And so let's start, we're gonna start with my experience, and there's a bunch of questions I'm gonna answer and, but before we go to some of the questions I'm gonna answer about my experience with pornography and where it came from and how I walked in it and my story behind that, I just wanna read a letter I wrote to pornography in 2014. And it's on my blog, and it says this. "Dear pornography, "We have known each other since I was a child "and I feel as though I can tell you things "that I can never tell anyone else. "You know all my secrets and all my fantasies, "and you have been by my side "in the good times and in the bad. "You spent time with me when I was lonely or bored, "and you comforted me when I was angry or hurt. "It feels like you have always been there for me, "but I need to get a few things off my chest. "You promised me that after I got married, "I wouldn't need you anymore. "You made me believe that what we had was just a fling. "I realize now that you never loved me. "I am finally seeing your endgame. "You have stolen a piece of me like a master thief. "You wanted everything from me, not just my eyes, "but also my mind, heart, soul and strength. "You have promised a world to me that doesn't exist. "You have threatened my marriage and my children. "You have hurt my friends and family, "you have destroyed the lives of girls, boys, men and women "all over the world and used me to help. "All the while assuring me that no one would get hurt. "Our relationship has been nothing but lies. "You are not, nor have you ever been my friend. "You are the reason I have lived "with so much shame and embarrassment. "You are the reason my wife has been so hurt. "You have warped my perception of women in the world. "I needed to write you this letter "to let you know that it's over. "I would tell you in person, "but that would give you too much satisfaction. "I have found a true friend, his name is Jesus." I wrote this letter a long time ago and posted it. It resonated with a ton of people. It got 4,000 shares. And it was just me verbalizing out loud the relationship I had with pornography, so that I made it real. I was like oh, I don't wanna pretend like, oh, I'm just struggling and this that, like I actually verbalized what it was that I, how I related to it. [Jennifer] It actually makes me really sad just hearing you read it out loud, 'cause it makes it even more so feel like such an intimate thing, such an intimate relationship that you had with this thing, and I just, I, makes me heartbroken over the many people who are doing it, who are addicted to it, who have this kind of relationship with it. [Aaron] And it's true it's a lie. And it, in reality, it destroys us, it leads to death, and it destroys the people that, were, are being consumed by it, in the images. And it, do we care about those people? Do we care about ourselves, do we care about our families? And we need to consider those things. So I'm gonna be getting into some information about kind of where it started with me, and if you have questions as we go, Jennifer, you can ask me. How old was I when I was exposed first to pornography? I actually don't know. I feel like maybe seven, eight years old. I can't, I don't have a very good memory of my younger years. But I do remember one of the first experiences I had with it was I was walking home from school and I found a, it was like a playing card on the ground with a nude woman on it, and I remember keeping it. And I remember that being my first experience with it. I don't remember how I got connected on the internet with it, I don't remember how I've seen it on TV, but I've been exposed to pornography for many, many, many years. And not just exposed to it, but I've exposed myself to it and craved it, and sought after it since a very young age. And it went with me, I literally thought when I was younger that all I need to do is get married and it would fix my lustful cravings. 'Cause it, what they did was they, being exposed so young and right at that, puberty, when I'm already gonna be naturally more hormonal, and more testosterone, and all those things that come with puberty, I, it was heightened, extremely from a young age. And it just continued on until even, into marriage. [Jennifer] I actually remember before we got married, we did talk about that aspect of feeling like, 'cause you admitted to me that you struggled, pornography, and I also wrote it off as like well doesn't every guy do that? That was my perspective of it. And we both believed that it would be like a non-issue when we got married, that it would just go away. [Aaron] Right, so while we were dating, you had no red flags about it. [Jennifer] I mean, I hated it then and it hurt me then, but I figured marriage would be the solution. [Aaron] Well what you said was that you thought, well, I guess every guy struggles with that, and we'll just, when we get married we'll walk together and we'll figure it out, and it'll be fixed. And I actually believed that too, but I was so entrenched in it that I couldn't imagine men not struggling with it, and I think there was two reasons I did that. One, pretty much everything I heard from other believers, and pastors, and mentors was like, well yeah, everyone struggles with that and there's that book, Every Man's Battle, like we, that's the thing we've heard about this, so I just believed literally every man struggled with it and it was normal. Yeah, it was wrong, and we shouldn't do it, and I felt shameful, and I should be better at it, but I wasn't actually ever told by anyone that I didn't have to do it, that I wasn't slave to it, that as a believer I could walk in freedom from it, and that it was gonna destroy me. I don't remember hearing that ever. I remember how it made me feel. [Jennifer] How did it make you feel? [Aaron] Well,it made me feel gross. I hated that I couldn't stop it, probably like any addict. Like why do I keep doing this? Why can't I stop? I feel like I have no control. But then at the same time, I wanted it, I enjoyed it, I loved it, I couldn't say that out loud. When I would talk about it, it was always like, "I hate this, I don't wanna do this anymore." But internally, I really did love it, even though I didn't recognize that back then. And I can't remember ever having a real conversation about sexual purity. I remember being told I shouldn't have sex before marriage, I remember being talked about it a little bit, but I don't remember purity discussion. I remember being caught a few times with pornography and having a short discussion of how it's not good and we shouldn't do that, but I couldn't, I don't remember having these serious discussions of this can't happen. It is going to destroy you. You need to stop. I don't remember that. And it maybe did happen, but I don't remember it being, it wasn't memorable for me. It wasn't something that changed my direction from anyone, my parents, from pastors-- Youth pastors, yeah. [Aaron] Friends. In reality, even when I would try and, ways I would try and deal with it was just abstinence. Like, well I'm just gonna try and go, oh, I went a month. And I didn't mess up, was my term. I would have accountability partners. That's what we all do. But all my accountability partners also struggled with pornography and weren't changing. So all we would do was come together and commiserate and say, "Well, God's good, grace of God." Those kinds of things, but no one ever changed, no one ever had authority in my life to say like, "Hey, I'm walking in purity, you should too." I didn't, I actually didn't know anyone. I've never met someone back then that walked in purity, that didn't struggle with pornography, which gave me a very small world view actually. 'Cause I thought, I literally thought everyone struggled with it. And I'm sure there's people listening right now thinking like, "Well doesn't everyone?" No, everyone doesn't struggle with it. Many do, but it's a lie from Satan to believe that it's just the thing that everyone's gonna struggle with. [Jennifer] Well if we believe that everybody struggles with it, it just makes it more normal and then, like it's just-- Yeah, why change? [Jennifer] It's another justification for it, yeah. [Aaron] I would confess to God all the time, and just remember that God loves me, and remind myself. I would read scripture that would make me actually feel more shameful because I'd be like, "Wait a minute, why don't, why doesn't my life "line up with what the Bible says?" Like shouldn't it? Shouldn't, when I read this, oh, that's what a believer is. I would have to in round about ways work around what the Bible says to be who I was, as a quote unquote, Christian. Which is wrong, 'cause we're supposed to align our lives with what the Bible says not with how we feel, and then try and make the Bible fit into that, which is what I had to do because it, my life didn't line up with it at all. [Jennifer] So then we got married, and it didn't stop. [Aaron] No, it actually, I feel like at times, it got worse. [Jennifer] Well just to catch people up on our story, the first four years of our marriage, actually it's kind of humorous now that I think about it with your addiction, our biggest struggle was-- Sex. Sex. And-- Yeah, I remember telling God like, "God, just give me a wife, "I just wanna be able to have sex with my wife, "and I'll stop doing this." And then,gettin' married, and it's literally-- [Jennifer] The hardest thing possible. [Aaron] The thing that we can't do. [Jennifer] So I experienced excruciating pain every time we tried, and so for four years, our marriage just got tougher and tougher as far as our relationship because of this issue. And because we weren't coming together and being, experiencing that part of our relationship, you dove even further into-- I-- Pornography. [Aaron] Definitely used it as a excuse and a justification. 'Cause I thought to myself, like well I can't even have the one person I should be able to have, so, I got this over here. And it was wrong, completely wrong. But looking back, God absolutely used our struggle with sex to show the depravity in my own heart, and yours-- I was gonna say both of us. About lust, pornography, and these things-- [Jennifer] I'm like a lot of that is sin. Sexual, yeah lots of things. But He's, He was definitely saying like, "I don't want any of this." And He was willing to discipline us, and I believe that's what it was. I believe that that season of our life was discipline because He's like, "You're My children." And He says, "I discipline those who I love, "and I love you." And I, He was done with us walking our own way, and walking in that sort of sin, and, now I can't say like, we walked free from it, and then boom, we were healed. It was much more complex than that. But looking back, I know that's what God was doing in us. [Jennifer] So are you saying that we struggled with sexual intimacy because you struggled with pornography? [Aaron] I believe so, I believe that God was disciplining us, He was disciplining me. I told Him, the one thing I wanted was a wife I can have sex with, and He's like, "That's not gonna fix it." And it, and He, and I should be able to walk in freedom with Him, regardless if my marriage is perfect. I, it's not a justification, having a broken marriage, having a broken sex life, having these things that I think give me permission to break His heart, and His laws, and walk opposite of how He's called me to walk, when my greatest relationship should be with Him, which is what I've always said I have, like no, everything is about God, and I love God. And He's like, "Well," as Jesus says, "if you love Me, you'll keep My commands. "If you love Me," In 1 John, He says, "Those who practice righteousness "are righteous." And I wasn't practicing righteousness, I was, I had no integrity. When I was alone, I knew what I was gonna do, and you knew too. [Jennifer] I didn't trust you. [Aaron] No, I didn't trust myself. [Jennifer] I'd just go back to that point though, I wanna talk about trust, but I wanna go back to you saying that our, let's call it a drought, 'cause that's what it was, it was a sexual drought, and our marriage was correlated with this addiction to pornography, 'cause as much as I see that, I also know that it was layered because He used that time for so many other things, to reveal a lot to us. And I don't want that, I don't want them listening just to go, oh, that's kinda strange, but a cool little revelation, there was a lot more that-- [Aaron] Well of course, like God is infinite, and He orchestrated a lot of things in our life, for many purposes, to put us on this journey with this ministry, to make us, our unity and our oneness stronger, to use us in the lives of others, like lots of things to teach us things. [Jennifer] To teach us things, yeah. [Aaron] But it tells us that the, in the Bible that that our Father in Heaven disciplines His children. And if He didn't discipline us, we'd be illegitimate children. But because we're His children, He disciplines us. I just wanted to highlight that to show that we, in going through those things, that what our heart should be is to recognize what God's doing and that He loves us, and that He cares for us. It's that quota, He loves us the way we are, but loves us too much to leave us there, and so He changes us. And He draws us to Himself, and He makes us more like His son, Jesus. [Jennifer] He definitely used that time to do that in our life. [Aaron] Yeah. What for you, Jennifer, 'cause I brought this into my marriage, and I didn't know if you struggled with anything at the time, early in the marriage, but what did my addiction to pornography, how did it make you feel? How did you deal with it? What were some of the highlights, or lowlights, I should say-- [Jennifer] Yeah, I'm like, there were no highlights. [Aaron] From our, from that's part of our story? [Jennifer] Knowing that you struggled with this was painful, and I felt betrayed, as your wife. And there was a lot of deep hurt, a lot of pain, but what's interesting is also wrapped up in a lot of insecurity, and I felt like it was pointed back at me, as if I wasn't good enough for you. And so on top of the pain of betrayal and mistrust, there was also this layer of, "I'm not good enough for you and it's my fault." [Aaron] Right, like you're causing me to like, well, if I was prettier, or if could give him this-- [Jennifer] Or if my-- Part of my body. Yeah, if my body actually worked-- Yeah. [Jennifer] And we were experiencing an awesome sex life, maybe he wouldn't, maybe marriage would have fixed it. So then I felt at fault for it, and that was really painful. And so anytime that you confessed to me, or that the truth was exposed, I felt just as at fault for it. [Aaron] Yeah, and I remember you would say those sorts of things and I would try and like comfort you, and be like, "No, no, no, not at all, not at all." But what's unfortunate is I was only comforting you back then and trying to help you back then for the sake of my own shame. Like I didn't like that I made you feel that way, I didn't like that you responded that way, but instead of changing, I just tried to help you cope with it. Which is wrong of me, I wasn't a very good spiritual leader back then. [Jennifer] Well we didn't know back then, where I feel like spiritually, we were so immature that we didn't know how to navigate this right. [Aaron] We didn't have much close fellowship back then. We've talked about that in past episodes. Which would have helped us see it sooner probably, if we had people closer to us, knowing us. Not just people but spiritually mature people. People who would challenge this area of our life. But again, we have to expose it and we have to tell people how we're struggling if we want that kind of correction. Yeah, and we kind of-- Which most people don't. [Aaron] Kept it to ourselves. [Jennifer] So I also remember anytime that you would say, "Hey we have to talk," my heart would drop, 'cause I'd be waiting for the bomb, the truth bomb of like, "I have to confess again." And I hated that feeling, and my heart also ached with anxiety every time I left you at home alone because I just knew. [Aaron] You knew it was gonna come when you got back, yeah. [Jennifer] And when I did come home, and you told me you messed up, like you said you would say, it just affirmed my distrust in you. [Aaron] Were you ever surprised? No. Yeah, 'cause you knew I was gonna, which is such an unfortunate thing to make my wife only know that about me. That I'm not a trustworthy person, that I have no integrity, and she's gonna feel small, and insignificant because of something I'm choosing to do. And I think the reason, no I don't think, the reason we are getting real with this stuff, is because these are the things that aren't said to us. And so we can easily minimize what we're doing. I minimized it a lot with you. I would just be like, "Well it was only for a little bit here, "I, it was, like, it was nothing, it was not a big deal." And like, all I ever tried to do when I was apologizing to you was minimize the shame and the guilt that I saw in your face. And I deeply regret that part of our marriage, and the things that I walked in, that I didn't believe the truth that I've seen and read in the Bible that I thought that was for other people, not myself. I believed I was still trapped by it, even though I was a believer. I believed that I was still trapped in my sin. I believed that it had power over me that it didn't actually have. And I let it into our marriage. And in the Bible it tells us to keep the marriage very pure, and I didn't. And so I thank God that He showed me these things and He was patient with me because half the time, you feel like, "Man I'm surprised God just didn't strike me down." 'Cause like He's sovereign, He's a good God, but He's a just God, and man I justly deserved not what I've been given. The patience, and the reconciliation, and a wife who remained with me when you probably had a good reason and a good right to leave me, for breaking our vows so many times. Because the next truth we wanna make everyone listening realize is that pornography's not just, like oh, this little sin that I did over here, and like it's not a big deal, it's not attached to anything. The Bible tells us clear that sexual sin is special. It does something different to us because it's against our own bodies, and especially in marriage when you and your wife are one. [Jennifer] I was gonna say, it's against your oneness. [Aaron] It's against your body. It's against my wife, and this is the truth bomb, pornography is adultery. It's adultery. I was a cheater on my wife. I broke her trust time and time again. I broke faithfulness with her, and that's the reality, and if anyone's, that's listening right now is walking in this and is telling themselves, "Well, it's only every once in awhile. "It's not that big of a deal. "I can stop anytime." Whatever we, words we use, we are committing adultery on our spouse, and we are not practicing righteousness, and we are not walking in light as He is in the light. And those are truths that we need to say out loud, and we need to recognize them for what they are. [Jennifer] I just wanna be honest, this episode has been so hard for me, and I just feel like I, there's things that I wanna share, and then I get this lump in my throat, and my eyes start watering. We've had to stop three times just to pause so I can breathe. But pornography hurts. Pornography kills, and it kills oneness, and unity in marriage, it kills trust, it kills love, it kills-- [Aaron] Faith. [Jennifer] Faith, and-- [Aaron] It severs our relationship with the Father. [Jennifer] Yeah, it severs our relationship between husband and wife. Like our relationship was crumbling because of this. And I just, I feel so emotional I think, even sitting here listening again to our story because I know we're not the only ones who have been hurt by the pain of pornography. There are so many husbands and wives, maybe them listening right now, have walked this, or experiencing it, or maybe just last night, they had that hard conversation where they're in tears over it because they want it gone so badly, and it just keeps coming, and keeps coming, and keeps coming and it's gonna keep coming-- Or if they're about to have the conversation-- The enemy-- Today. The enemy hates marriage. The enemy hates what we're doing, and it's going to keep coming because he knows that it will destroy what we have. [Aaron] And I wanna, your words are powerful, but I wanna remind us that our words are powerful. And you keep saying "Pornography, it's coming, it's coming," as if it's something coming at us, and this is one of the lies I believed, that pornography was something happening to me. And when something happens to us, it's out of our control. Pornography was not happening to me. Yes, the same issue kept coming up and we had to keep dealing with it, but, and I'm not correcting you, Jennifer, but I want the people listening to not take anything we say and say, "See? "There it is, it's coming at me." [Jennifer] No, and when I said it's coming, I mean the enemy is dangling that temptation in front of us because he knows our flesh is weak. And we have to be willing to stand strong against it. [Aaron] And so if we think it's something happening to us, we'll never walk strong. It's something I believed. I believed it was a outward force that I had no control over. But it is not. 'Cause if that was the case, then no one's free. And the things that the Bible tells us are lies. Our encouragement to those listening is to believe the truth. Proclaim the truth, so confession, which is saying what's going on. Saying what you're doing. What you are choosing to do, which is the key. Not coming like, "Oh, it happened again. "Oh, I messed up again. "Oh, "I slipped and fell into this thing again now." Confessing that you chose again to cheat on your spouse, that you chose again to walk in unfaithfulness with your God. That's true confession. And then repentance is to turn the other way. I am no longer gonna choose to walk in that. Because if it's something that we accidentally fall into, if it's something that happens to us, then there is no need to repent because you don't know if you're gonna slip. You're walking on this journey, and you're just gonna fall into the pit by accident, and that's just your destiny. But that's actually not true because that goes against everything Jesus came to do on the cross. He came to set us free from the bonds of sin and death. And the same power that raised Jesus from the dead is the same power that will bring life to our mortal bodies. That's what the Bible tells us. And in a little bit, we're gonna get through more scripture just so you listening can hear the truth about this. And I wanna bring up something, you said, Jennifer, that pornography hurts us, and it destroys us, and I wanna highlight one more truth, it was something that I never realized until I started walking in purity. And God was revealing to me who I was, and the things I was doing, is that pornography doesn't just hurt us, the ones consuming the pornography. We are literally condoning and cheering on, and paying for things that we would never condone, or cheer on, or pay for a Christian to do. And a lot of these men, women, whoever's in these videos or photos, many of them are forced into it. And even the ones that choose it, were literally saying, "Yeah, keep doin' that. "Keep doin' that." We're choosing to hold hands with someone to Hell, by the thing we are consuming. And if Christians would realize that, if I would have realized that earlier, would I have stopped? Maybe. If I woulda realized like, man, I'm actually like, partaking, participating in someone's journey, to a journey away from God. And it's easy for us to think like, well they're just things, it's just a video. Well no, those are people in those videos. Real people that are made in God's image. And I just hope that this is hitting home with those listening, I hope that people are hearing our hearts of concern and love, and are also being, having their eyes opened, and their hearts opened, and that true Godly repentance would come from this. [Jennifer] So I remember there was two pivotal moments in our marriage, that stand out to me. I think you'll know what I'm talking about, but they are pivotal because they helped you change in this area. And so I wanna share 'em so that those listening can be inspired by it and hopefully it, this, hopefully this moment right here becomes a pivotal moment for them. [Aaron] Amen, yeah. [Jennifer] So I remember it was just after we had Elliot, he was just a little baby, and I was sitting in a rocking chair midday, trying to rock him. And you were sitting at the desk in our bedroom, and you started telling me and confessing how you had-- -Again. [Jennifer] Messed up again. And normally, I mean, list an emotion, and I've expressed it. Tears, uncontrollably, like just all of it. Sadness-- All rightfully so, 'cause of what I've done to you. [Jennifer] But this time, I just sat pretty much gripping Elliot's little body, and patting his back, and my heart was just so burdened for you. And I remember-- It was actually your first time thinking about me in that way, because of what I was going through. [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah, like if tables were turned, yeah, putting myself in your shoes, but I just, I questioned you on your faithfulness to me. Because on the outside, we were Christians moving forward in our marriage and at this point, we actually had already been reconciled and determined to stay together. And you messed up again, and I questioned you on your faithfulness and I reminded you what scripture says about it being adultery, and I know you have already mentioned that today, but I remember just reminding you in this, in that moment that you were committing adultery against me. And I questioned how you would want our future to go, I questioned how you would want our son's future to go. [Aaron] I remember all this. You asked me if I actually feared God. You asked me if I actually loved God. You were challenging me at the core of what I was doing. Not just this one event, oh, I forgive you for the event, you told me like, you need to realize what you are doing Aaron. And I remember it was like, shocking. It was like oh my gosh. This is different first of all, 'cause usually I'm like looking forward to you, not looking forward to it, but I'm expecting an outburst, a reprimand-- A reprimand, yeah. [Aaron] "What, you did it again? "Don't you know how this makes me feel?" But you went from, you actually loved me, selflessly, 'cause even though you were totally hurt, you instead told me the truth in love. You said, "Aaron, you are committing adultery." And I think that was actually the first time I, we recognized that's what I was doing. I'm laughing 'cause I'm embarrassed. That was a pivotal moment, and that began actually, over the next few years, me walking in-- [Jennifer] The start of the true change. [Aaron] Like it, I did still have-- [Jennifer] A weakness. [Aaron] I still fell back into it, I don't wanna say fell back in it, I still chose it, but it was, it became much less, and much less, and then what the next event that happened was the straw that broke the camel's back. Like the, the like it was the thing like, so you opened my eyes to like, "Man, I have to change. "This is not okay what I'm doing." And then this next moment, I'm sitting in my car with our pastor and mentor, and he's, and we just had dinner and we were hangin' out, and he said, "Aaron, are you walkin' in purity?" And I said, "Well, no, recently I did this." 'Cause I wanna be honest, that I'm tryin' to walk in repentance and openness and light. And he says, "Well Aaron," he's like, "nothing's gonna change "until you believe the truth." He's like, "You need to believe the truth." And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" Because the way I talked was, oh, it happened to me again, I fell into, I stumbled into, oh, woe is me, like as if something was happening to me, so, 'cause I was still not thinking clearly about this even though you challenged me correctly. I still wasn't thinking clearly. And he said, "You are not a slave "to your addiction to pornography. "Pornography is not something that has control over you." Which I didn't believe when he was saying it, 'cause I believed it controlled me. And then he said, "And also, Aaron, "you need to admit and confess that you love your sin." He said, "You need to say it because you do." And I said, "I don't love it." And he's like, "Well, your actions are proving different. "You say with your mouth that you don't, "and then you say with your actions that you do." And it went right into my heart. And it was the first time in my life that I was able to say with my mouth out loud, that I actually loved pornography. And what that meant was is I actually was able to fully confess, 'cause before I was confessing about the fruit of my sin, not confessing the sin that I loved my lust. [Jennifer] Which if people are wondering, my response is I hate hearing it, I hate knowing it, I hate, I hate all of that, but I think it's necessary in order to overcome-- [Aaron] Well, a true confession is necessary, I had to be able to admit the truth, 'cause I was walking in lies. And the lies were keeping me in the darkness, and the lies were keeping me trapped, when the trap was my lies, it was, there was no trap. There was no chains, 'cause God broke those chains on the cross. And he's like, "You need to recognize that, "that that is the truth. "You have not stopped sinning because you love your sin." And so I, once he said it out loud and once I said it out loud, I realized, wait a minute, I don't want to love my sin. And so I confessed, "Lord, forgive me for my love of my sin, "and change me." And that was the last time. I think there was one other little time after that, that was, and I'm not trying to minimize, significantly different kind of sinning, but in the same area. And I confessed that out loud to Matt, and to you, and that was it. And it's been how many years now? [Jennifer] Five. [Aaron] Five. But those are the pivotal conversations, was you telling me the truth in love, and then another brother telling me the truth in love. Not, "Aw, sorry, yeah we all, we're all gonna struggle. "Let's just get back up, "and let's just try harder next time." But that's not, that is not what God's asking us to do. He's not asking us to try harder, He's asking us to walk in the truth. And the truth is, let's read some of these verses. The truth is, Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free; "stand firm therefore, "and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." And that's what I was doing, I kept submitting to a yoke of slavery that didn't exist. I was allowing a yoke to be put on me that didn't need to be there. So I'm free. That's what Christ came for, freedom. Would you read Romans 6:6? [Jennifer] "We know that our old self "was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin "might be brought to nothing, "so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." [Aaron] Oh, so it's not that I have to try harder, I am not enslaved to sin. So I need to walk in the actual truth-- [Jennifer] Which is 2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. "The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." [Aaron] So am I walking in this old self while pretending to be a new self? [Jennifer] Talk about a marriage fixing things. [Aaron] Yeah, and the marriage doesn't fix it, Christ has already fixed it. [Jennifer] No, the marriage of Christ, the being one. Oh, yeah, we're being one with the body of Christ, we're His bride, and it says that He's gonna come back to a pure white, and without blemish bride. That's who, that's what I'm a part of, that's who I am. That's who you are listening. [Jennifer] Yeah, how dare Him come back to a bride that's been-- [Aaron]Dancing in the mud, with her dress. [Jennifer] Sad. [Aaron] So those listening, your old self has been crucified. It's been crucified. Christ set us free on the cross. Ephesians 4:17 through 24, "Now this I say and testify in the Lord, "that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, "in the futility of their minds. "They are darkened in their understanding, "and alienated from the life of God "because of the ignorance that is in them," that was my life, I was walking as, He's telling Christians to not walk as Gentiles were, I was walking that way in my ignorance. "Alienated from the life of God "because of the ignorance that is in them, "due to their hardness of hearts. "They have become callous "and have given themselves up to sensuality, "greedy to practice every kind of impurity. "But this is not the way you learned Christ, "assuming that you have heard about him "and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, "to put off your old self," Aaron, put off your old self. "Which belongs to your former manner of life "and is corrupt through deceitful desires," I, that's crazy that it uses the word deceitful desires. They trick us, they're desires that are deceitful. "And to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, "and to put on the new self, "created after the likeness of God "in true righteousness and holiness." So my trying harder is actually just putting on the new self. Christ's likeness. 1 John 2:1, "My little children, "I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. "But if anyone does sin, "we have an advocate with the Father, "Jesus Christ the righteous." What's awesome about that is when we're walking in righteousness, and we stumble because we've chosen to, or we haven't, we weren't walking in the, we weren't walking in the Spirit, but we were walking in the flesh, we have an advocate. But the things that we're reading right now have been written so that we won't sin. So that we will actually walk in the truth. 1 John 2:28 and 29, "And now, little children, "abide in him, so that when he appears "we may have confidence and not shrink from him "in shame at his coming. "If you know that he is righteous, "you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness "has been born of him." I love that it says practice first of all, 'cause that that means is that we are not yet righteous, but we are becoming righteous. And as we practice it, we get better at it. So am I practicing my sinful desires and getting better at those things, or am I practicing righteousness and getting worse at my sinful desires? And that was, that's my life now, is I'm getting worse at my sinful desires and I'm actually getting better at avoiding temptation, and knowing what temptation is, and being strong under the temptation, and fleeing from the temptation, and talking about the temptation. And now encouraging others to do the same. [Jennifer] So actually I was gonna mention that, how you walk in authority now and challenge other believers, and I can be confident that you're gonna walk our children through these things, that you can teach them, and I don't know, I just, I love that you have this authority that you can say, "I've overcome this, you can too." [Aaron] Which is amazing, because when we see other people overcome something, it makes it that much more believable that we can. And so you're listening to this, and if you're thinking, "Man, I can't do that." Stop believing the lies, you have been set free by Christ. You have the power of the Holy Spirit in you. You've been given everything that pertains to life and Godliness, just like I have. I'm not special, I haven't been giving, given something that you haven't been given, Jennifer hasn't been given something that you haven't been given. We have Christ in us. We have, we could put on the new self, created after the likeness of God. [Jennifer] Something that we mention in our book coming out, Marriage After God, is that Jesus didn't come back to kind of save you, He came back to save you. [Aaron] He came back to fully save us, today, when Jesus teaches the disciples how to pray, He says, "Thy will be done on Earth, "as it is in Heaven." Which is cool because we can actually have His will on Earth, in our life. Now we haven't, our bodies are still gonna decay and we're gonna still see death, and these bodies are gonna fall apart because they're not yet redeemed. But you know what is fully redeemed? Our spirit. And He's renewing us day by day, and He's giving us a new mind, and new spirit, and He's, and through His word, and through walking in community, and through being, walking in light and truth, we can actually walk the way God has enabled us to walk. It tells us in Malachi, that He will write His laws on our hearts, on tablets of flesh. They're no longer on stones that can be broken, they're on hearts of flesh. His laws are written on our hearts, and not only has He showed us in our hearts how we can, how we should walk, but He's empowered us to do so through the power of His son and His spirit. I don't know, I hope that was vulnerable enough, and again, our prayer is that those listening, you, would not be freed from this addiction, and this struggle with sin, and pornography, but that you would recognize that you are free, and that you do not have to choose to be submitted to it. You don't have to choose it. You can choose actually to walk away, you could choose actually to turn the computer off, you can choose actually to put your phone down, you can choose to run away as fast as you can. We can choose that, and we are empowered to do so through the Holy Spirit. [Jennifer] So if this episode encourages them to go have a conversation, and there's confession and reconciliation, do you wanna share some things that we've learned over time that could help them? [Aaron] Yeah, I will say on my part, or for those that are going to do the confessing, and we talked about confession in one of our episodes, and they should go back and listen to that actually, don't minimize, meaning, well, it was just this, it wasn't as big as deal you think, it was only for a moment. Just say I did this. And then the second thing I would always try and do that I shouldn't do, was I tried to control your reaction. Please don't be mad, I know that I was wrong, please don't be sad, please don't be frustrated-- Or why are you crying. [Aaron] Or why are you crying. And so I, when I started walking in purity, I purposed that if I was gonna confess to you, I was just going to tell you what I did, when I did it, and then I was gonna be quiet. [Jennifer] And so on my part, I mean, as the person receiving the confession, something that I've learned is, well the first thing is, God created us with a lot of different range of emotions, but He created us with emotions. And so the first thing is acknowledging that you feel, and the second one is you're still called to have self-control in those feelings. And-- And you're allowed to have the feelings. And you're allowed to have those feelings, so you may cry, you may get angry, you may get all of the things, but you still are required to have self-control in them, and that doesn't mean that you just shut it off and you don't express those emotions, it just means that you don't sin in your emotions. And so I just wanted to share that as the counterpart to what you-- [Aaron] And on the person receiving the confession, the other spouse, your job is to not just love your spouse, but to speak truth in love. Like you did that day. You very calmly and lovingly said, "You are walking a very dangerous line. "You are committing adultery, "and you are harming our marriage, "and what you're doing will destroy us. "And you must change." [Jennifer] And then the biggest thing after all of that, is reconciliation. It should always be for the purpose of reconciliation and we hope that it's for reconciliation in your guy's marriages. [Aaron] And reconciliation can happen even though trust is still broken. Because the reconciliation is knowing that hey, we are still one, but we are going to work on this trust thing. Because you have hurt me and we're gonna walk it out together, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna avoid being healed, but it's going to take time and that's gotta be okay. Because it's not like a switch that gets flipped. There's been unfaithfulness, there's been brokenness, there's been sin, and there's consequences to that sin. But as a team, you walk towards healing and restoration, on both parties, and you do that by prayer, you do that by fasting, you do that by walking faithfully-- [Jennifer] And abiding in the word of God. [Aaron] And abiding in the word of God, and you also do that in community. You don't do it alone. If you're a brother dealing with this, you find other brothers that are gonna say, "Dude, stop it." That have authority in your life because they walk in purity also. If you're the wife, you find girls that are gonna be like, "You can't do this. "You need to walk in purity." And the goal is oneness, unity, healing, righteousness, holiness for the purpose that we always go back to is that God has a job for our marriages. He's got a ministry for us to do, and we will not be able to do it if we're stuck in sin. [Jennifer] Yeah, we need to be pure, and we need to present His bride, pure. [Aaron] And that's what we get to do, we get to purify ourselves, we get to practice righteousness, and we get to chase after God every day, and I just pray that this brings freedom today. I pray that hundreds, thousands of couples today would find not just healing, but realize the freedom that they have. And that they would be the ones that people look at and say, "I didn't know you could walk in freedom like that." And then they'll say, "Actually, this is what the Bible says." And they'll be able to help other Christians walk that way as well. [Jennifer] What an incredible ripple effect for the body of Christ. Oh yeah. [Jennifer] Well thank you guys so much for joining us on this episode. It was, it was vulnerable, and I appreciate you sharing, Aaron. And I can see that there's probably gonna be a lot of questions, probably come up from this. Probably. [Jennifer] And we might have to do another episode, but that's okay. But we do wanna invite you guys to pray with us, and close out the episode with this prayer from Aaron. [Aaron] Dear Lord, thank You for Your loving patience and kindness towards us. Thank You for Your mercy and forgiveness. Lord, I pray as Christian men and women we would practice walking in righteousness. I pray we would pursue purity, as You are pure. I pray that as Christian men and women who proclaim You to be Lord in our life, that we would not walk in this sin anymore. Change us, transform us, and cut out any dead flesh and wicked way that is in us. Help us to fear You and love You. Help us to see the truth about pornography, that it is destructive, sinful, immoral, and that it is adultery. Your word tells us that there should not even be a hint of sexual morality named among us as Christians. Help us to live with integrity, help us to be transparent and honest in marriage, help us to choose reconciliation over isolation in marriage. We are Your saints, and I pray we would walk in a manner worthy of Your call in our lives. In Jesus name, Amen. Thanks for joining us this week, and we look forward to what the Lord's gonna do in your life. And the testimonies that are gonna come from the truth that people heard today. [Jennifer] We'll see ya next week. [Aaron] Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Let's be faithful with the small things so that we will be faithful in the big things. Consider supporting this podcast by visiting our online store today. https://shop.marraigeaftergod.com READ: [Aaron] Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're gonna talk about how being faithful in the little things will prepare us for the big things. [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Thank you guys so much for joining us on today's episode. We just wanna take a minute to just encourage you to leave a star rating review, this just helps other listeners find our podcast. And we're just eager to get this message out. So please take a minute just to leave that star rating, and also if you have time and some extra love, you can leave a written review. That also just really encourages our hearts, lets people know what this podcast is about, and again just spreads that love out into the internet. [Aaron] Also if you've been really loving the podcast and the content, one way you can support this podcast is by purchasing one of our books. You know my wife and I, we've written 11 books now, going on 12. Our twelfth one comes out next year in June. And you can just head over to shop.marriageaftergod.com, and pick up our prayer books, our 30 day marriage devotionals. You can look at all the products we have. And we even have prayer books for children, too. You pray for your son, pray for your daughter. They've been a really popular book. So if you wanna support our podcast please consider going over to shop.marriageaftergod.com when you're done with this podcast. [Jennifer] Okay, so we are going to start off with an icebreaker, we did this last week, it was fun. So Aaron, I'm gonna ask you the first question, and then I guess we'll just tag team it, and then I can answer after you. So it is, what is one habit that you would like to create in your life right now? [Aaron] I would like to get better at reading the Bible more consistently. I'm just gonna be honest. [Jennifer] Okay. [Aaron] I used to be, have it at a specific time every day and I've just kind of gotten out of sync with that. So I'd like to get into a better habit of digging into the word of God. [Jennifer] Okay. And I would answer that by just saying working out. I feel like after I had Truett, you know you wait that kind of post-partum period, six weeks or so out. And then I started feeling really good and I added in one day a week. And now I'm looking for more. So just finding a consistent schedule for that would be really awesome. [Aaron] That's a good habit, yeah. [Jennifer] Well you encourage me. [Aaron] Thank you. [Jennifer] We're gonna share a little more about that later, but you've been in a good habit of that. [Aaron] Okay, so before I move onto the main topic I just wanna read a quote from a book I'm reading right now called the Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg. Habits are powerful but delicate, they can emerge outside our consciousness or can be deliberately designed. They often occur without our permission but can be reshaped by fiddling with their parts. They shape our lives far more than we realize. They are so strong in fact, that they cause our brains to cling to them at the exclusion of all else, including common sense. [Jennifer] That's good. [Aaron] Yeah, really powerful quote. The whole book just being about habits and how we form them and how we can change them. It's a really good book. [Jennifer] Yeah I wonder if anyone else listening as you read that quote can already just think about a handful of habits in their own lives that do this very thing. [Aaron] Yeah, it's amazing. Most of our habits we form without even thinking about them. It's not like we try to form the habit we just, they form out of our everyday rituals and routines, Choices. [Aaron] And choices, yeah. So it's kind of, it leads into what we're gonna be talking about today a little bit. We're not gonna be talking about just habits. [Jennifer] A little bit bigger of a concept. [Aaron] Yeah. [Jennifer] Of being faithful in the little things, and why. [Aaron] So, why don't we start off with the conversation that we had in the car the other day which lead us to wanting to talk about this [Jennifer] So, yeah we were driving in the car and you brought up that morning's workout, and you just wanted to share about it with me and how excited you were about something specific that you accomplished. [Aaron] Yeah, I was really proud of myself actually because I learned that I had a skill I didn't know I had. The workout involved rope climbing which we don't do very often. We do them maybe once every other month. And this workout had two rope climbs every so many movements, and before the workout started we were just getting ready, warming up and I thought, "Hey, I'm just gonna try a rope climb real quick, "see how it feels, "'cause I haven't done it in awhile." And I did a rope climb without my legs. So they call it a legless rope climb [Jennifer] Sounds torturous. [Aaron] Yeah, but I was really surprised at myself 'cause I've never been able to do a legless rope climb. And so I was sharing, I was like, "Babe, I did all these legless rope climbs today, "I didn't use my legs at all, "I just used my arms to go up and down." [Jennifer] And I just mentioned how I feel like that, like there's so much of it that's mental. [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause I didn't even know I could do it. And I was telling her, I was like, "Yeah, it's amazing how much "all of the stuff we do is mental "because I may be able to do it physically, "but I may not be able to do it mentally." There's many times I have to force myself to keep going. With this workout specifically, I told myself, I was able to do a legless rope climb, I'm just gonna do the whole workout doing only legless rope climbs. Which meant I had to slow down. I couldn't do as many rounds as everyone else did. But I was able to accomplish my little goal. And I was super proud of myself. It was a really good feeling. [Jennifer] You should be, that's awesome. [Aaron] I didn't realize I could do it. And we started talking about how not only is it a balance of mental and physical, but it's something that all these things that people learn, when you see people you're like, oh I can't believe they can do that. They didn't just start doing it. At the crossfit gym that we do, that I go to, there's a progression to things. Like I didn't just start doing legless rope climbs. I could not even do it, I wasn't strong enough, nor did I know how to. So we, there's this term called scaling. So we scale down the workout to what we can do. So even though, you know, I can't do what the main workout is I can still do the workout at a different level. [Jennifer] It seems like that's the key is scaling. [Aaron] Well it is the only way to do it, 'cause you can't just come in and expect someone to do this part of the workout if they've never done it before. You know, some people might be strong like that but usually you just can't. And so we were just discussing how you know, it starts off really small. You know, like, for the rope climb specifically. One of the ways that you can scale that down is instead of climbing the rope you just lay on the floor. And you pull yourself up. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] The rope to where you're standing. [Jennifer] Which when I do crossfit, I had to do that and it was not easy. Even for me. [Aaron] That's even still really hard, yeah. So you're just laying on the floor. [Jennifer] You have to start somewhere. [Aaron] And you walk your arms up the rope and you just pull yourself until you're standing up. And that's one of the first steps of learning how to climb a rope. There's other ways to do it where they bring the rope real low so it's not a very tall one, and you just try and do like a few feet, you know, instead of trying to do 15 feet up in the air, or 25 feet up in the air, you're just, you know, you're going up a couple inches or a couple feet. But that's what spurned this conversation with us about wanting to talk about not just habits, but-- [Jennifer] Spiritual growth, maturity. Just all kinds of hard things in life that you have to be able to start somewhere and experience that progression and balance of growing. And yeah, so when we were talking about scaling we were looking at life and saying that's still required. [Aaron] Well, and what happens is if we do this all in our own hearts, we look at something, or we look where someone's at, and we say, "Oh, well I could never do that, "therefore I'm not gonna try." Like I could never do a legless rope climb so I'm not gonna try. I could never run a marathon so I'm not gonna try. And that's, like no one just goes and runs a marathon. [Jennifer] But we don't see the work that they put into practicing and trying and even failing at times and feeling defeated. [Aaron] And where they started. [Jennifer] Where they started, yeah. [Aaron] Actually, today our coach at the gym was just mentioning how when he first started it took him like two years to do double unders, which is jump rope, you know where you spin it really fast. I can barely do 'em. But when I look at him I'm like, "Wow, it took you that long?" That's how my progression is going, it's been, I can't do 'em yet. I've been going for about two years and I've almost got 'em. But when you hear that you're like, "Oh, well, okay that's normal. "I guess I didn't realize that everyone "starts in the same place." [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Like everyone starts somewhere. We all start as babies. And then we get stronger and we grow. And so that's kind of what we wanted to discuss today. We're discussing it in our own lives. What are things that we can start today that we're gonna get stronger in and stronger in and better in later? You know, is it health? Spiritually, being in the Word. [Jennifer] Leading our children. [Aaron] Prayer. Leading our children. And how the incremental growth comes from the beginning of starting somewhere and moving forward and getting better at it. [Jennifer] Taking those steps. When we were kind of walking through the notes for today's episode, you mentioned, you know, everybody wants to be at the 1,000 mile mark without ever having to start with the first step. [Aaron] Yeah, what's that quote? A journey of 1,000 miles begins with the first step. [Jennifer] But yeah, everybody wants the reward, and everybody wants to experience the high of maturity or spiritual growth. [Aaron] And the blessings that come with it. [Jennifer] The blessings of leading your children and all these things, whatever the things may be. But there's a lot of work that's required of it. And sometimes we look at that work load and we say, "I can't do that." We don't believe that we're capable. But we wanna remind people that it's a matter of growing incrementally. It's making those daily choices, those individual steps toward those things. [Aaron] Yeah, being faithful. [Jennifer] Being faithful with them. [Aaron] In the very little things on a regular basis. You said something a second ago about not realizing, or not thinking we can handle stuff, or what we're capable of. I think the number one thing I've learned from my fitness journey, and we're not gonna keep talking about fitness by the way, this has been our template for why we were talking about this 'cause of what we've been seeing in me. Is that I'm surprised at what I am capable of. And every single time I go to the gym I'm like, "I can't believe I was able to do that." And I'm not tooting my own horn, it's just the nature of not telling myself I can't. And not giving up on myself and not giving into when it's difficult, and realizing what I'm capable of. There's, I was just thinking about this, what was the movie where the guy's escaped from the prison and they go across the Sahara Desert or whatever? And like it's just thousands and thousands of miles and they just survive. No one would think they could have gotten across the desert but they did. But that's how it is in life. We don't think we can accomplish things or make things happen in our lives, or learn something in the Bible that we see other people know or understand. And we're like, "Oh, we're not capable of that." I can't do that, you know, I can't go speak on stage, I can't go witness to someone, I can't, you know, spiritually lead my family. These are legitimate things that people see other people do, but then inside are like, "Oh, I don't have "it in me to do that." [Jennifer] Yeah, and I don't feel like people are walking around saying I can't do that, I can't do that, I think that it's kind of just something that we accept without even giving it a second thought sometimes. [Aaron] Well I know in my life that's happened a lot. There's things I've just said I couldn't do. But why? Who told me I couldn't do it? You know, doesn't mean I do everything. We wanna talk about the spiritual things in our lives that we can be implementing, walking in, that we can be building on. Becoming faithful in the little things because when we are faithful in these little things over time they compile into bigger things. You know I think spiritually when I think about being faithful in little being faithful in the big, and I think of that scripture where Jesus says, "If you deny me before man, "I will deny you before my Father in Heaven." And I think, you know, we don't as Christians just say, "Oh, one day if I'm persecuted "and put in this situation where "people are gonna threaten my life, "I'm just gonna stand for God." And then, in a very simple situation where someone asks me about my faith and I ignore the question or I avoid the answer. Like can I say that if I can't be faithful in that very little, safe, non life threatening situation. [Jennifer] How would you ever do it? [Aaron] Yeah, how could I possibly imagine that when my life's on the line, or someone else's life on the line, I'm gonna stand for my faith? And I think that's what we're getting at today is practicing walking in these little things. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I think that what I see beneficial about being faithful in the little stuff is in your relationship with God, and our relationship with God, we're actually building trust with Him. He's able to trust us. [Aaron] With more. Yeah so, I wanna read a couple scriptures here. In Luke chapter 16, Jesus is giving a parable. It's about a dishonest manager, and how he was taking advantage of his master's finances and bills and things that he was in charge of. And at the end of it Jesus says, he says this, it's in Luke 16:10. "One who is faithful in very little "is also faithful in much. "And one who is dishonest in very little "is also dishonest in much. "If then you have not been faithful "in the unrighteous wealth, "who will entrust to you the true riches? "And if you have not been faithful in that "which is another's, "who will give you that which is your own? "No servant can serve two masters "for either he will hate the one "and love the other, "or he will be devoted to the one "and despise the other. "You cannot serve God and money." So the direct context of this of course is finances, is money, is the things that we have, and it says unrighteous wealth. And what it's talking about is earthly gain, earthly money, earthly finances, earthly wealth. 'Cause He says if you can't be faithful on Earth with the money that you have that's not Heavenly, not eternal, how can you be entrusted with true riches? Which are Heavenly things. Which are eternal things. And so, the question out of this parable, even though this is specifically talking about money, is what earthly things do we have that we're being faithful with now? You know, I remember thinking when we first started our ministries, you know we launched our social media pages, and we were thinking like, "Man, that'd be so awesome. "What if we can get to a million followers?" [Jennifer] Oh yeah, I remember that. [Aaron] It was like our first year. And we had just started this thing. [Jennifer] We didn't know what we were doing. I mean we were just trying to, we knew our hearts were to encourage people and to utilize the tool of social media. But it was so new back then, too. It was all just, it was all new to us. [Aaron] Yeah, we hadn't even had it long enough to even be called faithful with it. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] You know. And we would've totally mismanaged a platform like that if it grew that fast without us being faithful with the little thing that we had. [Jennifer] So yeah, even though we wanted a large following and people that were part of our audience that we could speak into their lives and encourage, I wouldn't say that we were ready for that, especially when we first started. [Aaron] Of course not. That would be ridiculous. You know, in Timothy we learn about eldership and deaconship and that position it says they must not be a new convert. And the point is that they're not ready. They haven't been proven yet. And so there's lots of things in our life that we should be proven in, and we should walk in consistently to show that we're faithful in those areas. So I just wanna read one more scripture about the same subject. It's in Matthew 25:23. And it's in the same kind of parable. It's a parable of the Talents, you know, the master goes away, leaves three of his servants with a certain amount of Talents, and he expects return from them. And then he says this to one of them. His master said to him, "Well done good and faithful servant. "You have been faithful over little. "I will set you over much. "Enter into the joy of your master." That's what I want God to say to me. [Jennifer] Me too. [Aaron] That God's given me certain things. He's given me my marriage, my children, my job, our relationships, our home, our money, our car, all of these things. And there's much more, right. And I want Him to say that I was faithful with the things that He's given me. That I was faithful in investing them for the kingdom. You know, I wanna ask us, not just me and you Jennifer, but our listeners, what areas of our life, whatever areas of the things God's given us are we being faithful in? And what areas can we be more faithful in? Whether we thing they're big things or small things. We just have to recognize that the things that we currently have, the life that He's given us, He wants us to be faithful with. So, we're talking about, you know, being faithful to the things that God's given us. But I think on top of that, it's really good, we need to be good stewards, we need to be faithful with the things God's given us. But what about our spirit? What are some things that we can be faithful in in the little ways on the spiritual side of things in our life? [Jennifer] Well I definitely, like everyone would agree with me that reading His word and prayer are probably the top two things, right off the bat that we could look at our lives and evaluate whether we're doing that or not. Do we have a good, healthy habit? A daily routine of that? [Aaron] Yeah, being regular in the word and growing in that area. [Jennifer] I think some things that stop people from doing that is feeling like they don't know how to pray. Feeling like they don't understand God's word. And I think I would just encourage them that even if you don't understand it just keep reading it. Eventually God will help your heart to understand it, or maybe you'll have questions, and then you can go seek out answers to those questions. But it's a process. And I think that if we could just start with the simple, you know, just be active in reading, be active in sharing your heart with God, I think those are simple habits to start. [Aaron] Yeah, we're never gonna get better knowing the word of God without reading it. [Jennifer] It's true. [Aaron] And it is daunting, it's like whoa where do I start? And there's so much stuff, what's prophecy? How do I understand it? And there's just so much in the Bible, it's so rich, right? But, what we're getting at with all of this is we just start. You aren't going to get to the finish line without starting the race. And so this is kind of like our, you know, our call to action for the community, for those listening is if there's areas in your life that you know that you haven't been faithful in the little? Like you haven't been in the word of God regularly, haven't been praying, that today you start. [Jennifer] And it's not necessarily a chore either, like I just wanna encourage those listening that sometimes we can see the mountain ahead of us, and just like I said, be daunted by it, and think that's too hard. Or not enjoyable. Or see it as a chore to get to the top. But if you think of a mountain, and having a trail leading up to the top, you're gonna have, you're gonna go through probably tall trees or meadows or flowers or rocks and things to look at. And I think that it can be an enjoyable thing to pursue. It is an enjoyable thing to pursue. But we have to have the right perspective in order to see it that way. [Aaron] And it may not feel enjoyable at first because we're stretching muscles we've never used before. We're practicing something we haven't practiced before, so it is hard. It can be painful. Like, you know, going to bed later, so you can get in the word. Waking up earlier. Those aren't easy things in the beginning, but what happens is you build a craving for it and you start seeing the fruit from it. [Jennifer] And you enjoy that. [Aaron] And that's what you start enjoying. You're like, "Man, I enjoy the spiritual growth I'm seeing. "I enjoy the perspective I'm gaining. "I'm enjoying seeing my life change and transformed "by these new habits I'm forming. "By the word of God, by prayer, "by fellowship." You know, the things that the Bible's called us to. Walking in those things aren't always easy right in the beginning. But there's a quote that just says nothing worth doing's ever easy. You know. And these little things are worth doing. And we have a little note here, it just says incremental growth. The point is are we growing or are we stalled? Are we just staying in one place? Are we stagnant? The Bible uses that term lukewarm. We're neither hot nor cold, we're not going backwards or forwards. We're just remaining. And we don't wanna, a Marriage After God doesn't just remain. [Jennifer] Yeah, we wanna inspire you guys to take those steps forward. [Aaron] Yeah, we chase, we boldly chase after God's will for our lives. And there's only one way to know God's will. It's to dig into His word. And it's to dig into prayer. And it's to participate in the communion of the fellowship of being around believers and walking with one another, and accountability, and iron sharpening iron. But it starts somewhere. [Jennifer] And practically speaking how do you start building these habits or these routines, these things that we know we should be doing when we're not doing 'em. How do we start? [Aaron] Yeah, and it's not going straight to the end. Like okay, I'm gonna read three chapters a night, I'm gonna read through the whole Bible in a month and I'm gonna, it starts with I'm going to set a time every day that I'm gonna open the Bible. [Jennifer] You know when we first got married I remember your mom mentioned to me, she was just giving me tips and tricks on how to manage a home and all of that. And without saying that it was coupling she was actually teaching me the art of coupling. She would say things like, "You know, I read my Bible every morning "with a cup of coffee." So she goes and pours herself a cup of coffee, sits at the kitchen table, and she leaves her Bible on the kitchen table so she knows that those two things go together. And it's a way of building in that habit each and every day. Building a routine each and every day. And I never really put into practice the skill of coupling. Actually I forgot about it until a friend of ours brought it up to us a couple years ago, and kind of inspired you in the art of coupling. And do you wanna talk about that a little bit? [Aaron] Yeah, so, this is just a tip for anyone who wants to implement new habits and routines in their life, especially in these spiritual areas of like reading the word of God or praying, or going and being with other believers. We can couple, which is taking something you already do on a regular basis, taking a habit you already have, and adding the new habit or routine to it. So a good example would be like, if you took a shower every morning, having a note on the mirror in the bathroom to remind you to pray. Or putting your prayer notes on the mirror or somehow in the bath, in the shower when you're in there. So what you're doing is your coupling your daily routine of showering with a daily routine of prayer. [Jennifer] Yeah, so currently right now, by the way I just have to note. If they hear baby noises, coos and burps, it's, the baby's on my lap. But right now we're-- [Aaron] Real life. We're coupling podcasting with parenting. [Jennifer] Yeah. We are trying to find cues within our rhythm of just managing the kids, and so after Bible time I help Elliot with piano, and so for me a signal of ending Bible time means piano time helps me remember that we have to do piano every day. [Aaron] Which we've been talking about piano, we love that our son's learning piano, but it's been hard to have a routine of daily practice. And so we're like okay, what can we couple it with? What can be our cue during the day for you to just go straight to piano practice? And so we're making it right after Bible time he'll do piano practice. Bible time is a good example of something that we've been working on in our home. Forming new habits and better routines and something that's going to spiritually benefit our home and family and children. [Jennifer] Which we've seen. [Aaron] Yeah, and this actually was a hard thing. I remember thinking man I wanna be leading my family spiritually, I wanna be a spiritual leader, I wanna implement things that are gonna benefit my children and myself. And I remember thinking how hard that was. I was like I don't even know what to do, where do I start? What do I, what am I supposed to do? And I just told myself one day. I was like I'm just gonna start. So I was like okay kids, come sit down on the couch, we're doing Bible time. And they're like what? What is Bible time? And didn't it start off, I think we've talked about it before, it started off at like a verse. [Jennifer] Yeah it was short. [Aaron] Like we just did one verse. And I would talk about it for a minute. I didn't have like a set Bible study, I was just like, "Okay, what do you think "that verse meant? "What was your favorite word out of the verse? "What does it mean when he says this?" [Jennifer] Now the whole family looks forward to it. [Aaron] Yeah and it's not just a verse anymore. We read up to two chapters and it will probably get more and more eventually. And that's just an example of starting somewhere. And since we started it's been, we started in January I think. Or February. And it's pretty much been a whole year now. And we do it, I feel like we do it four to five times a week on average. There's some days that we miss. I have coffees on Wednesday mornings so I don't think I do it then. I think you've been doing it. So, that's a routine we have in our home. That our children are hearing the word of God, they're learning the word of God, I'm getting better at leading and having this routine. And what's awesome is when you take these small steps of faithfulness, so me just sitting down for a few minutes a day, reading the Bible with the kids turns into other things. It makes it easier to now have a routine for piano practice. To have a routine for breakfast and a routine for what comes next in the day. And a routine for prayer in the car. We've been practicing, just, we're driving and like hey, who could we be praying for right now, kids? It makes those muscles, those spiritual muscles easier to use. Stronger. [Jennifer] I just keep thinking how much stronger our kids are gonna be. [Aaron] Yeah, because we're practicing habits and spiritual skills now. They're gonna benefit from them. And that's the whole point is we want them to benefit from them. And we're benefiting from 'em. I find myself wanting to read more, which I've always told myself I'm not a reader. And then the other day I was like I'm just gonna read books. So I have like three open books right now in my nightstand. I haven't read through all of them yet, but I'm reading through all of them currently. And I have this audiobook I'm listening to so I'm just trying to walk in new things. I just don't wanna be the same person all the time. I wanna be moving forward. I wanna be growing in life. And I know you feel the same way. It's things that we've been seeing and know that God wants from us is just maturity and growth. So what areas in our life are you seeing that we may need a break? Like habits we may need to break or replace with other habits? [Jennifer] Well I know for myself, we were just talking about this the other day, but when I feel overwhelmed, or even if I feel like I just accomplished something really hard, I treat myself. And it's like that's my cue for a bad habit. Or like I said when I feel overwhelmed. [Aaron] Like you've earned it. Like oh I've earned to go splurge. [Jennifer] Yeah, or if I feel overwhelmed and I just wanna feel better, those are just some simple cues that give me a very bad habit of you know, filling that with sugar or whatever the treat is. [Aaron] Yeah, fill in the blank. [Jennifer] Fill in the blank. So I think that's one thing that I am looking forward to breaking. [Aaron] So replacing that supposed reward you wanna give yourself with something more healthy. [Jennifer] Another one would be going to bed late because I wanna build a habit of getting up early and getting in the word before I get going with the kids. But I know in order to do that I need to go to bed earlier. [Aaron] Yeah, and these are again, these are little things. So just trying to be on the same page, and say hey, what will it take to get to bed 30 minutes earlier tonight? It's setting for ourselves some goals maybe. Little goals like hey, if we're gonna be praying with each other at night let's make sure that we have the kids in bed on time, let's make sure that we're efficient, let's crawl into bed and let's spend time in prayer together. [Jennifer] And I do feel like we are getting stronger and better, more obedient, more faithful in these small things. And sometimes it can feel defeating when we think about we've already come so far, or we've already stretched that muscle so much. We've already changed. [Aaron] Yeah, do I need to do more? Gosh. [Jennifer] Yeah, we've already changed so much and then it hurts when God, or you, or someone reveals that there's more to go. Or even just like, there's another step to take. It can feel really defeating. But that's what faithfulness is all about is just being willing to take that next step forward. Yeah, and I wanna encourage those listening. We've mentioned quite a few things in our life that God might be wanting to change in us and grow in us, and give us more diligence and more faithfulness in, because He's just building and building on us. And again like we said in the beginning, they could be listening to all of this and be like well that's so much, where am I supposed to start with all of that? And my encouragement is just start. God's probably revealing right now to you one area that He would love to see you grow in and change in. Is it just spending some time while you're driving to work praying instead of listening to the radio? And not thinking like oh, I have these 50 things I need to do today, 'cause you will fail. We've experienced that in our lives. We have this grandeur idea like oh I wanna be this person, this is what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna implement these 12 things and I'm gonna be that person tomorrow. And then it's like that's too hard, I can't do it. But what we found is it's real easy to do something small. But then when you do 1,000 small things, right? It becomes a very big thing. I wouldn't have imagined that we would have written 12 books eight years ago. We didn't write 'em all in the same day. [Jennifer] That would have been really hard. I'm glad God didn't ask us to. [Aaron] Thank God, yeah. [Jennifer] He knows us better than we know ourselves. [Aaron] But now looking back it's like oh, we did one book. And then we did a second book. We had 1,000 followers, and then 10,000 followers, and again, not just to talk about us. I'm just, the point is, we started somewhere. And unless we start we're not gonna ever get anywhere. [Jennifer] And I think a marriage after God is willing to start, and they're willing to embrace hard things, and they're willing to persevere. And they're willing to look at the future with vision and understanding and hope that they will, they will mature, and they will grow, and they will exercise those muscles for the purposes of what God has for them to glorify His name. [Aaron] Yeah I was gonna ask why does all this matter? [Jennifer] Yeah, it's for Him. [Aaron] Like why are we even? It's for Him. He's got something for us to do. Just think of that scripture that tells us that God's prepared beforehand, before we were even formed in the womb, He had good works for us to accomplish in this world for Him. So all of these things, they're not so that we can feel more holy or look what we've done. The only goal, the only drive, the only passion that should be pushing any of these decisions forward, and giving us motivation to do these things, and grow in these areas, is to see what He's doing in our life, and to see what He's. [Jennifer] Truett agrees. [Aaron] Yeah, Truett agrees. So I hope this encourages those that are listening to ask God what areas they can build new habits in, and to be revealed, areas they can just start today. [Jennifer] I'm willing to bid they already know what that next step is. [Aaron] Yeah they're thinking right now like oh, I've been wanting to do this. [Jennifer] Okay, you just need to do it. [Aaron] You just need to do it. So I said last night Jennifer, you were mentioning how you wanted to start something, and I was like, "Start? "Start today?" I didn't say it harshly, but I was just like the reality is that it's not going to start for you, like start it. [Jennifer] And sometimes I feel like we always wanna say like we'll start Monday. And that never works because then Monday comes, then Tuesday comes, then Wednesday comes, and you forgot that you were supposed to start Monday. So then you have to start Monday again. [Aaron] That's one of the tactics our flesh uses to keep us from moving forward, to keep us from growing up. Is as long as it's tomorrow it's not today. So let's just make it today. Today's the day of salvation. Today is the day that we make those changes. Today is the day we say yes to God. Today is the day we believe what the scriptures say about the power that's in us, the resurrection power of Jesus Christ. And that we walk in it. We walk in the spirit, not the flesh. I just hope everyone that's listening is encouraged, I mean it's something that Jennifer and I are walking through and growing in and learning how to be. So a new thing that we've been doing is ending in prayer. And so Jennifer's got a prayer for you all today. So would you please join us in prayer? [Jennifer] Dear Lord, we pray that we would be men and women who submit our lives to you. Examine our lives and show us the areas that need transformation and change. We pray we wouldn't complain or grumble when you revealed to us bad habits that we need to break, or what the next step of growth is that we need to take. Help us not to be prideful or resistant when you use our spouse to speak a word of truth about the habits in our lives. May we receive what they have to share with a humble heart, knowing that what they share is motivated by love. We pray we would walk in righteousness. Holy Spirit help us to break the stronghold of habits that need to go, rhythms and routines that have become natural to us but don't benefit us or our families. When you convict our hearts toward change may we boldly choose to walk out what you desire for us. May we be faithful in the little things each and every day, knowing that our faithfulness is building trust in a relationship with you. Please help us to prepare our hearts and our bodies for the work that you have for us. May we take time to encourage our spouse in building better habits, and keep each other accountable to the changes we aim to make. Lord help us to be faithful in the small things so that we are prepared for the bigger things. In Jesus' name, Amen. [Aaron] Amen. So thanks for joining us for today's episode. We pray that you would hear the heart of the Lord today. And that you would seek out what He has for you, and how He wants you to grow. And we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Welcome back to our weekend Cabral HouseCall shows! This is where we answer our community's wellness, weight loss, and anti-aging questions to help people get back on track! Check out today's questions:  Kay-lee: Good morning, I have a question which could be a strange one? My son is 24 years old and has only reached my height which is 162cm and I am wondering if there is any chance that he can grow a litttle more? He's father is 180cm. He is a fit and healthy young man the problem is that he is in the army and there are times when that extra height would be so welcome. Look forward to your reply Kind Regards Kay-lee Grace: Hi, I’ve been an on and off binge eater for many years. Something has finally clicked in me over the past few weeks and I’ve been able to break that cycle. I still struggle with daily heartburn, chest pain, and bloating though. It happens mainly after I eat. I don’t know if that’s due to my many years of treating my body poorly. I’ve tried eliminating certain foods before (I follow a vegan diet) to see if that would change anything and it hasn’t. What do you recommend I should do to fix this problem? Do you recommend your 7-day detox to start fresh and give my body a restart? Or should I start taking some supplements like gut support, digestive enzymes, probiotic, etc. to help? Thank you so much for your help! James: I have acid reflux and taking medication for it presently. When I stop the medication I get weak nausea and throw up. How do I go about getting off the medication and heal the acid reflux. Janice: My 81 year old mother has thyroid issues and is on meds but still doesn't feel well.  She is very foggy headed, is always tired and has splitting nails, thinning hair, slower gait, cold numb hands, no energy, trouble conversing, however she is not overweight.  The doctors think she may have early Parkinsons but she has no shakes and the Parkinson meds don't help at all.  She thinks it is all thyroid related but her thyroid #s are good with her meds so they won't test further.  Would your thyroid test help uncover potential thyroid related issues that standard testing won't pick up?  If so - can she take it while being on thyroid meds or will the meds alter your test results? Anna: Hi Dr. Cabral, I have been listening to your podcast for a while and have really enjoyed learning about diet and nutrition as part of a holistic, healthy lifestyle. My husband has recently heard about the "carnivore diet" from a podcast by Joe Rogan with Jordan Peterson and has gotten really interested in it. Essentially, they say you eat only meat and end up losing weight and getting rid of symptoms of allergies, anxiety, and depression. I am weary of it because my husband also has a history of heart disease in his family, especially on his dad's side, so the thought of him eating only red meat definitely freaks me out. I wanted to ask if you have heard of this "carnivore diet" and what your thoughts on it are. I am an advocate for a well-rounded diet full of micro and macronutrients, including all different colors of food, but I also get the feeling that everybody is different, so there is not one diet that works for everyone. I'd love to hear about your thoughts on all this in a podcast. Thanks, Anna Megan: I have had stomach problems since college and I am 34 now. I went to scott and white in Temple and had endoscopies colonoscopies catscans etc and nothing came up. They diagnosed me with IBS with constipation at the time. Years later I had a friend with similar issues have her gallbladder removed after it died inside of her. I had mine tested and they said it was only working at 75% and would only get worse so they removed it. Looking back I wish I wouldn't have but that was before I started educating myself about eastern medicine. Before my gallbladder was removed I threw up alot, especially when eating fried foods, because nothing would digest. My mother took me to the dr everytime I sneezed as a child so was constantly on antibiotics which I now realize was really bad. I take probiotics and enzymes now and eat healthy 80/20. From listening to the podcast I believe something is going on with my small intestine because thats where it hurts and I consistently am in pain and bloated which I can control some what with diet (juice in the morning, tea, lots of greens, etc.) and exercise and detox baths, but if I slip at all I feel terrible. I went to a lady who did biofeedback on me which is frequency based and she said I have EBV and because of that my immune system is weak. With all that being said I know I need to have tests run I was just wanting advise on which ones and which order and if there is any protocol I should start now or mulitple protocols I should do, or just wait for the tests and the results. I have spent alot of money on tests and supplements etc. and really would love if I can figure out what is actually wrong so that I can concentrate on it specifically instead of blindly trying different things. Leanne: the 7 day weight loss program supportive of a vegan diet?  Alexandra: Hi there, A couple of years ago I was diagnosed with Lymmes. It had since been treated with strong antibiotics but I still don’t feel 100% well. I bought your book a couple of months ago and have read it from cover to cover! I am based in London so what tests would you advise I have done & do you have any affiliates in U.K.? Kind regards Alexandra Jennifer: Hi there- I take a few anti-anxiety medications and prolixin an antipsychotic, (that I take for anxiety and ptsd,) and I’m wondering if Dr. Cabral could help me get off this medications in a healthy way that stabilizes me and reduces my anxiety naturally. Does he do things like this? The medication has also caused some weight gain and I’m looking to create overall balance and wellness in my body mind and spirit. Let me know if he’d be a good fit for what I’m looking for. Thanks, Jennifer Thank you for tuning into today's Cabral HouseCall and be sure to check back tomorrow where we answer more of our community’s questions!   - - - Specific Show Notes & Resources: http://StephenCabral.com/988 - - - Dr. Cabral's New Book, The Rain Barrel Effect https://amzn.to/2H0W7Ge - - - Join the Community & Get Your Questions Answered: http://CabralSupportGroup.com - - - Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular Supplements: > “The Dr. Cabral Daily Protocol” (This is what Dr. Cabral does every day!) - - - > Dr. Cabral Detox  (The fastest way to get well, lose weight, and feel great!) - - - > Daily Nutritional Support Shake  (#1 “All-in-One recommendation in my practice) - - - > Daily Fruit & Vegetables Blend  (22 organic fruit & vegetables “greens powder”) - - - > CBD Oil  (Full-spectrum, 3rd part-tested & organically grown) - - - > Candida/Bacterial Overgrowth, Leaky Gut, Parasite & Speciality Supplement Packages - - - > See All Supplements: https://equilibriumnutrition.com/collections/supplements  - - -  Dr. Cabral’s Most Popular At-Home Lab Tests: > Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis (Test for mineral imbalances & heavy metal toxicity) - - - > Organic Acids Test (Test for 75 biomarkers including yeast & bacterial gut overgrowth, as well as vitamin levels) - - - > Thyroid + Adrenal + Hormone Test  (Discover your complete thyroid, adrenal, hormone, vitamin D & insulin levels) - - - > Adrenal + Hormone Test (Run your adrenal & hormone levels) - - - > Food Sensitivity Test (Find out your hidden food sensitivities) - - - > Omega-3 Test (Discover your levels of inflammation related to your omega-6 to omega-3 levels) - - - > Stool Test (Use this test to uncover any bacterial, h. 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Is social media harming us? Dr. King, the Director of Consumer Privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School, discusses what is wrong with the current internet algorithms, unseen manipulation, and behavior modification techniques.Transcript:Lisa:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Jennifer King. She's the director of consumer privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School. We'll be talking about the problems with social media today. Welcome to the program, Jennifer. Jennifer:Thank you. Lisa:You've recently gotten a new job at Stanford Law School. Can you first of all tell us what you're doing down there? Jennifer:Yes. I just graduated my PhD back here at Berkeley. Lisa:In what?Jennifer:Information science. At Stanford, I am the director of consumer privacy at the the Center for Law and Society at Stanford Law School.Lisa:You just started though.Jennifer:At Stanford, yes. I started in April before I graduated. Lisa:Last week, I had an interesting conversation with Jaron Lanier, who just wrote a book called Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now. I thought I'd have you on the show to talk about some of the ideas that we talked about since that is your area. Everybody knows there's something wrong right now in our society. Journalism is failing. Politics is failing. People are afraid they're losing their jobs to AI. Whether they are or not, they're afraid of it. There's a lot of social anxiety. What do you see as the problem with social media or do you?Jennifer:With social media specifically? Because there's a lot there. I think one of the challenges with social media is that it de-individuates us or it takes us away from our humanity to some extent. It's the same way when you're driving in a car and there's that object between you and the rest of the world and you might be a totally reasonable person in real life and then you get behind the wheel and you get road rage or you just find that you treat people more like objects than other people. When you communicate with people through a computer, it's that same object between you and them. I think it prevents us in some ways from connecting with people. Lisa:There's a lot of research now that backs up, especially with young people, that there is more anxiety, there's more sadness. I don't know exactly how they're measuring sadness but that people are acting out differently, particularly young people, which is scary. I think we need to re-examine Google and Facebook and others. Some aren't in the business of behavior modification, but the business model, it's not that the people behind it personally are doing this, but the business model they've created with machine language literally takes us on a downward path. It's not left or right. It's actually down because the algorithm support and make money off of negative emotions. Jennifer:Sure. I've worked in Silicon Valley, and I can tell you having been-Lisa:Who did you work for?Jennifer:I worked for Yahoo. I worked for other startups too, but I worked for Yahoo back in the early 2000s, and was part of not directly developing social media software that was part of that scene, you could call it in the Bay Area back around 2000-plus where I was part of those social networks that emerged during that time. I think we were all very optimistic, and there wasn't a lot of thought about what the consequences were of any of these things people made. It was mostly like, let's just try this and see what happens. I think at first, there was an optimism driving it. We're doing this because let's see what happens. It could be really interesting. I think that shifted. It shifted over time from that to let's do this and maybe we'll get acquired by somebody to now let's do this and see how much personal data we can potentially mine from this product and from these people using it. Part of that is the consequence of building this entire infrastructure off the idea that it's free and not making people pay for it. I think the other piece of it too is that most of the people in this space, I would argue, are not thinking about what these products would do or these services would do to kids. It was one thing to put a lot of this in the hands of people who already had a solid footing on what it meant to talk to people in reality. We didn't grow up with phones and we barely grew up with computers, many of us, and so we had a foundation for what it meant to interact with people. Now suddenly, you have kids who've grown up immersed in this technology and it's shifted to where it's almost as if they don't know how to interact with each other. Lisa:Right. It's a big intermediary for them. Jennifer:Yeah. Professor Sherry Turkle has written extensively on this. I think she's done some of the best research on it. Lisa:Where is she?Jennifer:She's at MIT, and she's published several books in this area and that's where I'm drawing some of my own insight. Lisa:It's an unfortunate collision of math and human biology. Jennifer:Yeah. I would say, too, part of the challenge is that being a technologist has suddenly brought with it a lot of power in the society. We don't educate technologists to think about other people. If you are a Berkeley or a Stanford computer science student, for the most part, I don't believe you even had to take any ethics requirements in the past. I know that's changing, but you've been able to tinker with this giant social experiment without necessarily having any education or training or having been challenged to really think about the consequences of your actions on other people. It's mostly just been a chase to see what cool thing can we make next. I think we're seeing the consequences of that.Lisa:We are. There seems to be a groundswell now of people, at least researchers, academicians, economists, who are now looking at all of this behavior modification and the implications. They're also looking at data as labor instead of data as capital because for the first time ever, I think there are just a few people who own these big, what Jaron Lanier called siren servers, and they're making money on everybody else. There's only one buyer and multiple sellers of information so it's a monopsony. Jennifer:Yes, a very hard word to say. Lisa:Yes. I want to talk about that, all of the data that's been pulled from us with our knowledge and without our knowledge. Jennifer:That's a tough one because from my perspective, I study privacy and I study people. I try to understand how information privacy, how people think about it, what they care about. I'm willing to bet that most of us have figurative piles of digital photos hanging out either on our personal computers, on our phones, and managing all those things is really hard. I don't think I know anybody who actually has a grip on the number of photos they take. Lisa:I don't even look at them anymore. Jennifer:Right. I think you can extend that to your own data. We talk about a lot about we want to give people more control and we want to put them in control. If we could just somehow get our hands on this ephemeral data, then it will be okay. My skepticism with that just comes from the fact that it's such an information overload that it's possible we could build an infrastructure that makes it easy for people or at least easier. Right now, I think the push to get people's hands on the data isn't going to necessarily have the effect we want it to or that we might be hoping it will. I think there are good reasons for making the companies open up their platforms that have to do with issues of power and control and just trying to force a level of openness that doesn't exist presently. Whether that ends up with empowering people individually because they can actually see what data is collected about them, I'm a little bit skeptical of that actually.Lisa:What about data? People talk about universal basic income, but now people are talking about you've gotten these companies rich off of all this data and with your consent. You've given this away, but now-Jennifer:Kind of your consent. Lisa:Yeah. There are people, groups like datavest and researchers. Even at Stanford, they're looking at the idea of monetizing your data so that in place of a universal basic income, someday you might get every month a certain amount of money in return for the barter that you've given away your private life. Jennifer:Not to wallow in trendy technologies right now, but I think we've ... I don't know if your listeners or if you've talked so much about blockchain. Lisa:Oh yeah, I've had people on here actually from the UC Berkeley blockchain group. Jennifer:Great. I don't know if blockchain is the answer to that problem, but it seemingly could potentially be an answer to the data management piece. Every proposal I've seen in this vein has (a) put the burden on the individual to manage it in a way that I don't think most people want to do. You can't manage your photos. You don't also probably want to manage your personal data on a day-to-day basis. Lisa:Exactly.Jennifer:I don't even balance my checking account anymore. I just ... What has to give? I have to say I don't know too much about the blockchain proposal insofar as I have seen it voiced as a potential solution for this distributed data management problem. Lisa:It seems to me that if Facebook and Google were smart, they would get off this business model that's on a downward anyway because it's going to implode. You can't take data as capital forever. If they would say, okay, we realize what we're doing and now we're going to turn around and give you back something, they'll probably never do that because their business model, they make too much money. There are groups like of datavest. They propose a co-op organization where they are the intermediary between the big computer monsters that they're leasing to do this complex mathematical, but blockchain would be part of that probably, keeping accounting records and-Jennifer:Right. Making it manageable for end users, for individuals. I think that the challenge is that right now in some ways, collecting data is more valuable than it potentially has been before because companies are using this to feed their AI systems. It's a big training base. Given how much focus right now is on AI and improving those systems ... As an information scientist, I can tell you that you need data to train those systems to improve them. Lisa:Like language translation. Jennifer:Absolutely.Lisa:You need real people. They're grabbing real people's translations in order to make the Google Translate work better. Jennifer:Which I think is actually a really excellent example of this being used for good in a sense.Lisa:It is, but what about the jobs of human translators? At some point, there's real no artificial intelligence right now, but at some point when perhaps there is, they won't have a job anymore. Jennifer:Well, I don't know if it necessarily obviates all human translators, but I will tell you I was in Mexico last year. I wasn't going to hire a translator to go with me from place to place to place, but Google Translate was really helpful for trying to talk to a cab driver because my Spanish is terrible. Lisa:I agree with you there, but let's pay those human translators for that data. Jennifer:Sure. Yeah. Just to go back to that thought though. One of the reasons why I don't think you'll see the recognition by the companies that this could be a downward slope right now is because right now as they're trying to improve their consumer AI systems, there is probably a fanatical need or desire for as much data as you can get. Given that, I think if you want to see the changes you're talking about, it will probably emerge through civil society and other groups putting together proposals and pushing it. I think you'll have to see it from a government side ultimately. I don't know if you'll see it in this country. Lisa:There does have to be some oversight. I don't know. I feel like this problem is so urgent right now. When you look at the Annapolis shootings, which some people are saying were triggered by trolls online, and that could be misinformation. It's hard to find the truth that is hurting our society. Also with journalism, I use that as an example a lot because they missed the Trump election. They missed the recent Brooklyn, the young woman who beat out the stronghold Democrat challenger. That was completely missed. What's going on? They can't afford investigative journalists. Most organizations can't anymore, so finding out the truth is really difficult. I think that's changing us. In so many ways, it's making us more siloed. We don't know what red states are thinking because we only see what the algorithms want us to see. It's creating this bifurcated society. In fact, it turns out a lot of technologists send their kids to Waldorf schools and Montessori schools because they're worried about this. Jennifer:I don't let my kids use a lot of technology. Lisa:You don't? Why?Jennifer:Well, I guess to go back full circle to the social media piece. Again, I think using social media is a different experience for those of us who have developed the skill in her personal communication and relationships in person and that it's a much different equation when you're talking about kids. It used to be that the internet was connecting us across space, and now we're seeing it used in a very hyper local way when it used to connect people who were sitting right next to each other. That's a very different vision, I think, than where we started from, and I don't think we've thought so much about what that means for the people inhabiting that space together. Certainly with teenagers, you see it in terms of the competition it fosters for I want the best Instagram photo. I would say it's a double ... two big parts to it. One of it is parents saying something, I mean really being involved and understanding what their kids are doing, which I realize is not always easy, especially if you're not particularly tech literate. I'm just, as a parent, I'm often amazed how many small children I see who are just given phones and parents are ignoring them and they're just going on and on and on. It just amazes me. There's definitely been greater calls to tech companies to really start thinking more about the implications of what they're doing, not only on this, but a lot of parts of their work across society. I think that the types of restrictions we have on phones, for example, are in their infancy. We could do a lot more in terms of thinking through like what's an appropriate set of parental controls you can put on a phone? For example, to get to meter kids' usage so you can teach them, bound it, like this is what it means to be on your phone for 20 minutes and when the 20 minutes are up, you're done. You're locked out.Lisa:They can get around that stuff though. They're going to be so much more tech savvy than you or I.Jennifer:I have younger kids, so I'm still-Lisa:They'll just hack your restrictions. Jennifer:I'm still biased towards the fact that I can take the thing away from my five-year-old versus having a 15-year-old with a phone, which I realize is different.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, I'm speaking with Dr. Jennifer King. She's the director of consumer privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School. Well, I wanted to ask you about your new job at Stanford Law School. California just passed this pretty intense data privacy law. It isn't as restrictive as Europe, but can you talk about that and explain what's going on to our listeners? Jennifer:The law that was just passed was the result of we'll say panic by the tech sector with the upcoming ballot initiative that was to appear on the ballot in November. There was a ballot initiative or it was placed on the ballot that would have had placed some more restrictions on privacy with respect to tech companies. Some of the provisions in the ballot measure ended up in this final bill but not all of them. When I looked at this bill, again I'm not a lawyer so that's my disclaimer for my own analysis, but one of the things I actually was frustrated by, which I don't know if we'll see addressed ultimately because a lot of the talk last week was around the fact that doesn't go into effect until 2020 so we may see amendments to it. It was that it doesn't place any limits on the collection of data nor on the reselling of it. It gives consumers a little bit more power than they had before, but I'm actually fairly disappointed with the outcome of that bill because I don't think it really does much beyond allowing you to say, hey, don't sell my data. A lot of the big companies that we've been concerned about actually aren't selling your data to begin with. They're collecting it, and they're selling access to it, and that doesn't change at all under this bill. It doesn't curb some of the, I think, the worst cases we see of data being collected without your explicit consent. It does nothing about that consent issue. If you download a free app for a smartphone and the app developer is using a third party advertising service that serves ads in the app, that service is collecting data from your phone about your usage as you're using it. The same with any website that you're not blocking third party cookies or third party ad trackers on, if you're using a regular computer and a browser, those ad services are also collecting data from you or from your browser experience. This bill doesn't really do anything to curb that. Lisa:Does it do anything about the cameras on your phones and computers that are looking at your facial expressions and that goes into the machine language algorithm as well, the listening that goes on with your devices?Jennifer:Yes, you have devices in your pocket that can listen to you and can take your picture. Certainly the way they get consent from you is often not clear. Lisa:Most of the time, you don't read the consent anyway on these sites that you go to. Jennifer:However, it is against the law for them to be surveilling you without you having consented. At the same time, you might be using a service that wants to capture your voice as part of what it does, so take a smart speaker, for example. That's an area I've been looking at a bit lately.Lisa:Like the Alexis and Siri.Jennifer:Right. They're voice activated. They need to listen to you. For how long and what it records and the duration and what it does with that recording is an interesting question, but that is the essence of a smart speaker so you do have to let it capture your voice. It's just a question of then what happens to that data. Lisa:In your capacity, in your new job, what are the problems you're trying to solve in the near term? Jennifer:My job is research focused, so part of it is about the type of research that I am looking to do. Because I just graduated with my PhD, some of it is about publishing my own dissertation work.Lisa:Which was on what?Jennifer:Privacy. I don't think I want to go into the details. It's a long and complicated thing. Lisa:It's private.Jennifer:It's not private, but I think it would bore a lot of people. Some of the issues that I've been interested in exploring in this new role are genetic privacy. Actually, a part of my dissertation research was on 23andMe users. I was very interested in looking at-Lisa:What they do with that information?Jennifer:Yeah. Also just people's expectations around it and what motivates them to have their DNA sequenced and what happens to your DNA after you give it to a service like that. That's an area I've been interested in looking at, as well as emotional privacy because I think one of the things that's been a side effect of Facebook and Cambridge Analytica and something I saw in my own work is that people often get the most concerned about their privacy when it comes to data about them that really gets to who they think they are. By that, I mean it's one thing for a credit reporting company to collect your address and your credit history. That's important information and, of course, we're upset if it gets breached. Your sense of privacy around it I think is different than, for example, another piece of my dissertation research was looking at people's search queries. One of the things I found was that actually of the people I looked at, I asked these 23andMe users about their genetic data as compared to their search queries. Most of them were far more concerned about the content of their search queries than about their DNA. That was mostly because they felt like their DNA, sure, it identifies you uniquely, but they felt like it didn't tell people about them. The way that if you looked at five years of your search queries, your unfiltered search queries, that could tell you much more about who they are, what they're thinking about, what they care about. Lisa:That's interesting. Maybe because search queries are free, but the 23andMe, you have to pay to join that service. I've done it, so I know there's a certain fee. With that fee structure, maybe that makes people think, oh well, data is private. It's not going to be-Jennifer:The question of paying for it, yes and no. Yes, it definitely ... When people pay for something, what I've observed is that there are definitely more expectations around I paid for this, so they better not sell my data or at least I hope they won't. With free services, there's also an expectation of privacy. It's not as if most people use something like Google search and assume that their search queries are going to be used in a multitude of different ways against them or released to the public. People had privacy expectations in that data even if it was [crosstalk].Lisa:That's important to talk about.Jennifer:What Cambridge Analytica and Facebook has also shown us is the power of the emotional data, which is something I'm also trying to focus on because I think that's the next frontier. I think it's the next frontier in terms of the types of data we're going to try to let's say extract from people. There are people focusing on emotion recognition as a way to improve different experiences, technological experiences. I, of course, being a skeptic, I'm always skeptical leading into these things, so I'm really curious to keep an eye on companies that are doing emotion detection and see where that goes in terms of the next type of data we've been collecting about people would be your emotional state. There's lots of research into computer mediated communication that charts basically all of this. The research is there. You just have to know where to look for it and put it into play. Lisa:Maybe we should start educating people at a very early age, like elementary school about privacy. Is that something-Jennifer:You can talk to my rising fourth grader.Lisa:Have you thought about that? We need to institute this in schools if we're going to-Jennifer:Yeah, there are definitely people in the privacy research field who have worked on curriculum for at least high school students. I agree that it should go probably at least middle school and maybe the fifth grade, fourth grade, fifth grade level. There are definitely people working on that. How widely distributed that curriculum gets, I think that's the challenge. It'd be nice if California as a state did something with it rather than it just being a one-off one teacher in one school being interested in that issue. Going back to the genetic data piece and the search query piece. One of the things though that is really interesting about the genetic data area is the fact that a lot of what you're doing with that is sharing it with other people in the service. Whether that's looking for relatives or with 23andMe, you can share it with the company for their development or for their research purposes. One of the things I thought was really interesting about the people I talked to who used it was how much they were motivated by that sharing, the research sharing with the expectation that, hey, if my data is used to develop a new drug that can help the world, great.I'm a skeptic so my counterpoint was, sure, it could be used, but it might be used to develop a drug that then their pharmaceutical partner charges $50,000 a dose for. There's no-Lisa:Right, or that you get absolutely nothing for-Jennifer:Right. You don't get anything from it monetarily. That's another interesting area of people willingly contributing their data to a private database for private development with no guarantees that there'll be a public benefit from it. Lisa:I really think we need to innovate that business model and return, in some way monetize this data that is benefiting a few people. You look at Facebook. 60% of it is owned by Mark Zuckerberg. They don't have that many employees. It needs to be more democratized. Jennifer:Well, I would argue. I was reading something recently online that was asking four notable internet theorists about basically what went wrong. It got me thinking about like what would I do? What would I have changed about the last 25 years? I think that going back to the mid to late '90s, there was a real ... The drum beat from Silicon Valley as much as it was an internet business at that point was very much like leave us alone. Don't regulate us in any way. Don't crush the internet. Let it blossom. Let it grow. There was pretty much a total hands-off approach with a couple of small exceptions along the way. I think if I went back in time, the thing I would change is not necessarily regulating, but I think making this expectation that there needed to be a public benefit. I don't know how I would do that, to be honest, if it's that the companies needed to ... Actually, I think maybe not a bad model would be looking back at radio and the development of radio and the fact that you used to have the fairness doctrine and public service announcements. There was this explicit recognition that the radio waves were a public resource and that they would lease them to private broadcasters, but there had to be some public benefit that they gave back. I wish we could have made that more explicit in the development of the internet.Lisa:Some people think what went wrong is that it was free, that if we would have had to pay just a nominal amount of money for the right to browse or whatever, we wouldn't be dealing with all the advertising and behavior modification and so on. Jennifer:I was interviewed recently by some undergraduates at Stanford, and they asked me some pretty challenging questions that I had to stop and think about it too. Part of it was like, why do you do this? Why are you interested in this stuff? Given how many bad things feel like they're happening today, it's a real challenge to think about why are we doing this? Why am I involved in technology? Why don't I just run away and do something else? I think because there have been some real positive changes, despite all of the negative ones. I guess at the end of the day, I feel like it's not worth giving up on it at this point. Not that we even could, but I think that we let industry drive everything for the last 25 years. I think what you're seeing is a real recognition by people that they have to take this back into their own hands to some extent, both in terms of how they're being used and their data and just the power these large companies have to shape society in a way that I think people are really recoiling from. How we do that, I think some of the things we've talked about today are some of the hints that people collectively getting together and thinking about what can we do to shift the power balance. I think it is important to remember that this technology gives you a lot. There's a lot of things. I think if you asked us, would we go back to 1995 and give up some of the things we have now such as your ability to use a map online or a map on a phone? I think that's a pretty powerful tool.Lisa:[crosstalk] from your child at school. Jennifer:Right. I always joke when I first got a cellphone, the first thing, I was living in Hawaii, the first thing I did was went to the beach and called people back in California going, "I'm calling you from the beach."Lisa:It's not the internet. It's not the technology that's a problem, I think. It's the-Jennifer:It's the people.Lisa:The behavior modification algorithms. I think it's just we need to change the model. We're not going to get rid of the technology, but make it better, like you say. I think that's wonderful. It's a good goal. You have a lot of work ahead of you. Jennifer:Yeah. I can't retire anytime soon. Lisa:I'd like to have you back on at some point and once you've been in this role for quite a while and see what you're thinking then.Jennifer:Yeah. Lisa:You've been listening to Method to the Madness. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Thank you for joining us for our 2nd Cabral HouseCall of the weekend! I’m looking forward to sharing with you some of our community’s questions that have come in over the past few weeks…  Let’s get started! Ronda: I have a deep ridge in one of the nails on my left hand that has been there for close to a year. I have not slammed it in anything so I am concerned it is the sign of an underlying condition. Any and all information on what to do would be greatly appreciated. It has been there for close to a year. I have not seen any doctors regarding it, I have researched and can only find it can be from poor absorption. I suffer from muscle cramps regularly and I wonder if the two are related. I only drink water and have coconut water daily. My diet has not been great until recently when I started your fatlossity diet, which has been great. I have been on it for 2 weeks and have lost weight. Before the diet I still ate pretty healthy eating grass fed and organic foods as much as possible. I am not a big sugar eater but I do love fruit. Mark: Hello Dr Cabral, Hope you are well : ) I just listened to your Podcast on CBD Oil. Last weekend, I went to Seattle last weekend for a Qi Gong workshop which was great and I slept pretty darn well out there! After returning to Colorado, as the week progressed things got stressful and I didn’t sleep so well and got some new breakouts on my face. I’m thinking I should try some CBD for anxiety and sleep. What do you think? Can you recommend a CBD brand or product for me to purchase? Also can you recommend a Naturopath or Functional Med Doc in the Denver/ Boulder Colorado area? All the Best, Mark O Janice: what is the best test to check liver health? can you check if it goes through phase 1 and phase 2 detox? thanks!  Teresa: Hello Dr. Cabral, First off, thank you for the wealth of information you provide to you listeners. It truly has made a difference in my life! My daughter has the symptoms of HS, Hidradenitis Suppurativa. Last year she saw a dermatologist but all they do is suggest on taking some form of medication and to wear tight clothing so that there is no rubbing on her skin. She was not diagnosed with HS but when I looked up her symptoms, everything matches what she is suffering from. She has marble sized lumps under her armpits, occasional groin area, back, and various parts of her body and they do drain pus. I truly appreciate any knowledge and information your can share in helping her heal.  Lo: Hi! I love your MM mondays, and now I almost wish everyday was monday. Unfortunatley I have listened to all of them now, and I wish there was more. Could you please recomend some books, articles or especially podcasts that motivate YOU in your life? Thank you and keep up the good work!  Jennifer: Dear Dr.Cabral, I am 44 and in fairly good health. I could lose about 25-30 pounds and feel perfect. I did the 7 day detox in July and lost about 10 pounds and have kept 9 off so far. I have been struggling with my libido for quite sometime now. I know there is a emotional component involved but I believe it’s more than that. At this point my libido is now at a zero. Can you advise me what test to take or what supplements I should look into? I have not seen a physician for this as I am not interested in medications if I can help it. Thank you for your time. I recommend you to all my clients, family, and friends. Jennifer Thank you for tuning into this weekend’s Cabral HouseCalls and be sure to check back tomorrow for our Mindset & Motivation Monday show to get your week started off right! - - - Show Notes & Resources: http://StephenCabral.com/632 - - - Get Your Question Answered: http://StephenCabral.com/askcabral    

Dr. Veronica Anderson, Host, Functional Medicine Specialist and Medical Intuitive interviews Jennifer Fugo on How to be a Savvy Gluten Free Shopper. Do you want to regain your health? Certified Health Coach and founder of Gluten Free School, Jennifer Fugo, has created the number one spot for those living a gluten-free life seeking community, simple & clear information about their condition, and ways to become empowered and finally feel better. She is dedicated to teach gluten-sensitive individuals simple, savvy and empowering steps to get healthy. In this episode, Jennifer will talk about how she healed her gluten sensitivity in 3 days, the issue with the food supply in America and how choosing certified gluten free product can simplify your life. She will also share the biggest tips that will help you transition into a gluten-free lifestyle, key GF products and companies and how to order food when eating at restaurants. Listen to the end to access to the 9 Homemade & Store-bought Gluten Free Breads cheat sheet.   Dr. Veronica Anderson's Links https://www.linkedin.com/in/drveronicaanderson/ https://www.facebook.com/drveronicaanderson/ https://twitter.com/DrVeronicaEyeMD?lang=en https://www.pinterest.com/drveronicaeyemd/?eq=dr.%20veronica&etslf=14837 https://www.instagram.com/drveronica/?hl=en   Recommended Books: Jennifer Fugo: The Savvy Gluten-Free Shopper- http://amzn.to/2ogW8i1   Discussed: 9 Homemade & Store-bought Gluten Free Breads - http://eatbettergfbread.com/   Show Notes: 01:50 - Is gluten free a weight loss program? 02:45 - Developing gluten symptoms   07:00 - Gluten sensitivity 3-day cure 09:30 - Why Jennifer started the Gluten Free School 14:00 - Severe IGG sensitivity to eggs 15:00 - Celiac disease vs. gluten sensitivity 16:55 - Non-invasive Celiac test 18:00 - Leaky gut and digestive repair 23:00 - The issue with the food supply in America 29:30 - What is Certified Gluten Free? 31:00 - Biggest tips when transitioning to gluten free 35:52 - Gluten free products and companies 40:00 - Ordering food at PF Chang's restaurants 49:00 - Finding the right practitioner 52:00 - Eating GF free bread _______________________________ Dr. Veronica Anderson is an MD, Functional Medicine practitioner, Homeopath. and Medical Intuitive. As a national speaker and designer of the Functional Fix and Rejuvenation Journey programs, she helps people who feel like their doctors have failed them. She advocates science-based natural, holistic, and complementary treatments to address the root cause of disease. Dr. Veronica is a highly-sought guest on national television and syndicated radio and hosts her own radio show, Wellness for the REAL World, on FOX Sports 920 AM “the Jersey” on Mondays at 7:00 pm ET.   If you enjoyed this episode, do us a favor and share it! Also if you haven’t already, please take a minute to leave us a 5-star review on iTunes and claim your bonus here!   Want to regain your health? Go to http://drveronica.com/ Transcripts Female VO: Welcome to the Wellness Revolution Podcast, the radio show all about wellness in your mind, body, spirit, personal growth, sex, and relationships. Stay tuned for weekly interviews featuring guests that have achieved physical, mental, and spiritual health in their lives. If you'd like to have access to our entire back catalog visit drveronica.com for instant access. Here's your host, Dr. Veronica. Dr. Veronica: Welcome to another episode of Dr. Veronica's Wellness Revolution. It's hot where I am today. It's humid and me and my guest are having bad hair days. This is why you say, "Dr. Veronica, you don't look as good as you usually look."  Jennifer: Bad hair day. Dr. Veronica: But you're not looking at us because we have good hair or bad hair you are listening to the Wellness Revolution because you need knowledge about a particular subject. So I'm going to talk about a subject today with my guest. We're going to talk about gluten once again. Why am I going to hit gluten again? Because there's so much everything going around with the gluten. So much everything that I can't talk to enough people.  Why? Because there's myths, there's facts, there's different ways to go about it. And if you are struggling with figuring out, "Can I do this? How do I do this?" The more people that you hear, you might hear that piece of information that helps you get on the road because this is crucial to your health. Let me say one other thing about this. Although a lot of people go gluten free because they want to lose weight, this is not why we do the program. Going gluten free is not a weight loss program. Pure end of the discussion. So if you think I'm going off gluten because I want to drop a lot of pounds, go ahead off of gluten.  But if you can keep gluten in your eating plan I recommend that you do it because that group of foods has particular nutrients in it. And if you're not gluten sensitive you should keep eating them. Not excessively but everything, pretty much unless you have a sensitivity you should be in your eating plan.  Having said that I would like to introduce to you the founder of the Gluten Free School. How about that? The Gluten Free School where you can go and learn how to do this. It's a little bit more. Now we have a school about it. Jennifer, oh my gosh. I always come across this. Jennifer Fugo? Jennifer: Yes, Fugo.  Dr. Veronica: People have these names and everybody tells me I'm very good at pronouncing people's names. But Jennifer Fugo? Jennifer: Fugo... My family's name got shortened on Ellis Island so... Dr. Veronica: So Jennifer Fugo, Gluten Free School. We're going to talk... But instead of me telling you all her accolades I want you to hear her story about how she founded the Gluten Free School. Jennifer, welcome to the Wellness Revolution and jump right in and just start talking to the viewers about where you started on this gluten free journey. Jennifer: First I want to thank you so much Dr. Veronica for the invitation to come on your show and get to educate people about this because I know that where I started I had never heard of gluten before. And I come from an Italian... I just mentioned my name got shortened on Ellis Island. My great grandparents came here from Italy. We still have relatives that we're connected to in Italy. There's a lot of traditional things about my... I never heard of gluten. I was like, "What, gluten? What is that? Glue?" I had no idea. Dr. Veronica: It is like glue. Jennifer: Right, it is. More like breads and all sorts of things because of the nature of the protein. But I think a lot of people come at this from reading things online that are incorrect, and sometimes make them afraid to eat. That sort of what happened to me. I was 27 when I was actually diagnosed with non-celiac gluten sensitivity which is different than celiac disease. And we can certainly talk about that if you haven't talked about that before.  I had terrible brain fog. I couldn't remember things. I had acne. I had round rashes on my arms and on my legs. I would sleep for 9 to 12 hours a day and I still couldn't get up. So my husband would have to shake me and pull me out of bed and I still could've taken a nap in the afternoon. And then I was just so fatigued.  I have these digestive problems that I just thought were normal. How many of us are like, "I have stomach problems. It's natural. Whatever." It wasn't. I would get diarrhea all the time. I had terrible gas. I know people start to chuckle. They're like, "Oh my gosh, she's going to talk about this." But if I don't talk about it who's going to talk about it.  My gas actually smelled so bad that my husband got to a point where he didn't want to be around me. It's funny but it's not funny because can you imagine if you're in a business meeting, or you're with family or friends, so you're trying to hold that in and it causes stomach pains and all sorts of problems.  Occasionally we get constipated but my issues with gluten were more of the spectrum of just diarrhea. Like in the middle of a meal I'd be running to the bathroom five, six, seven, eight times, doubled over in pain. I had to go now or I would have had an accident, like bathroom emergency. And so I really didn't know that any of this was abnormal because I'd had it so long. And what I also didn't know that was connected to this was that I had chronic headaches since I was a teenager. So I've been taking Tylenol for a very long time. And about a year period I had gained almost 20 pounds despite being a total gym rat and trying to eat really well, eat organic, whole grains, and all that stuff. I had kept putting on weight that I couldn't get rid of and I felt very puffy.  Bloated, yes, but it was more just all over. It's just an all over puffiness that no matter how much I exercised, no matter how much I tried to diet, the needle wasn't going in the direction I wanted it to ahead. It kept going up and I was starting to get really concerned that something... I'm like, "Did I break me? What's going on? I'm so out of control and I don't know what to do." I've tried everything that I think I needed to do like cutting calories, and watching my fat intake, and doing all of these... and it just wasn't working at all. Anyway, after going through a rigmarole of doctors and things and they didn't know what was wrong I landed in a nutritionist's office and she looked at my diet and said, "Have you ever heard of gluten? And do you know what gluten sensitivity is?" And I was like, "No, no clue. You have to enlighten me." This is full disclosure that is not the case with everyone. My journey is my own and I don't want people to think, "I have all these symptoms the same as Jen. So if do what she does I'm going to feel magically better in three days." That's not true. Some people it takes longer than that. But my story is that within three days the terrible gas stopped. The explosive diarrhea stopped. The stomach pain stopped. And I just felt overall more with it. That was the initial thing, and after a week I was like... even my husband said something's different. We did blood spot testing and it turned out that I had not just sensitivity to gluten, I have an even more severe reaction to eggs. And I'm also sensitive to the casein protein which is found in all dairy products including goat, or sheep, or anything else. The cashew family, the cruciferous family, I had a lot of things that I had to take out of my diet.  Again, I mentioned, I didn't put together the pieces that the headaches were connected, or the weight gain was connected, or the fact that I was getting sick about every six weeks with whatever cold or flu or bug that was going around. I didn't know that all these things were connected to what was happening in my digestive system. And by taking them out my life changed.  If you go to my website you can see a before and after picture and it's not one of those things where you're like, "Is that person sucking in?" I'm not sure, the lighting's hard to tell. I look very different. I looked so different at that point that I had friends that I haven't seen in about a year who are like, "Are you okay? You look so different than I'm used to seeing you. Are you sick? What's going on because I lost a lot of weight."  My husband and I hadn't put it together until he happened to be... he was on Photoshop going through photos that we were taking on our trip and have those two pictures up side by side and he was like, "Now I know why people think you look different." It takes time, number one. But when I went gluten free back in 2008 when all this happened to me there was some books they weren't that great. I was given three websites. "Best of luck. I'll talk to you in eight weeks." And I had to figure it out myself.  And so the whole point of founding Gluten Free School, and I also want to share too. I'm not just coming at this from what my experience has been. I worked for 10 years for my father who's an MD and a surgeon, an ophthalmologist just like yourself. And so I worked right with patients with him. I have a lot of experience first-hand of what patients go through, not just for myself but also what a patient goes through when they go to the doctor's office. I understand a lot about that. And then I decided to go back and become a certified health coach because I wanted to help people with their diet. And now I'm in the process of finishing my final semester of Masters in Nutrition program. I'm so excited. I'm almost close to [Unintelligible 00:10:38] done that. And I actually just started an internship yesterday with a functional medicine doctor. I have continued to take this very seriously because I understand that there's an incredible knowledge gap. And it can seem so daunting and so impractical, and so inconvenient, and so hard, and so expensive, and we could go on and on and on about all the barriers that prevent people from actually making this lifestyle change. The reason that Gluten Free School exists is not only just to educate people but to empower them to make better choices to be able to talk to their doctors with confidence. And to also know that the decisions that they're making aren't nuts, that they're practical for their own lives, that you don't have to go broke doing this, and that you can be incredibly happy and incredibly satisfied living a life that happens to be gluten free. And by the way it benefits your health if that's what you need. And I agree with you, you shouldn't ever do this diet just to lose weight. Just because that was my experience does not mean that that's going to happen for everyone. It does not mean that everybody's migraines are going to away if they go gluten free or any number of things. There are maybe other... For me I had multiple food sensitivities. I have gut issues that needed to be resolved. So it's not a quick fix. It's not a miracle. It's not some heaven sent thing. Yes, people who are sensitive to it are going to experience changes but I'm also very cautious and pragmatic about how I talk about this because there are a lot of emotional implications. There's a lot of stuff that frankly sucks especially when you're dealing with family and friends that don't care about how you're eating now and it's an inconvenience to them about dining out and all that stuff. So I want to make it easy and simple. But I also want to make sure that people feel happy and satisfied in their lives. And that the diet isn't going to drive you nuts. Dr. Veronica: Let's sort of transition, and I always like to add on a little bit to what people say because everybody brings out a little bit of different nuggets. And so first of all when you went to a professional because you didn't know what was going on. And so now gluten free and everything is all over the place so people may want to say, "I don't want to go to a professional. I just want to do it myself. There's more resources out there." However, let me just point out one piece of your story that was quite important, you found out you were sensitive to gluten but this, and this, and this, and this too. And that's what happens with people, sometimes people go off gluten and they have sensitivities in other areas. And they say, "I went gluten free and it didn't work." They may be the persons that are not sensitive to gluten.  I say that in that you ended up finding out not only is it gluten, it's all these other things too. And I have all these other things affecting my digestion, and that's a completely different issue than just I'm sensitive to gluten.  Jennifer: Right. And Dr. Veronica to add to that, remember I said I took gluten out. That first week I was like whoa, it's different. The thing was I kept getting really sick, like that explosive, painful diarrhea, like everyone once in a while I can't figure out what it was. I was like, "I don't have any gluten in my diet. I don't know why this is still happening." I want to tell her that I feel better and maybe it's gluten, maybe it's not.  If I was doing this on my own I might have concluded that I kind of feel better but not 100%. It turns out and I didn't know this until I got those blood results back that I have a severe sensitivity and IgG sensitivity to eggs. And I eat a lot of eggs. And the last time I ever ate eggs which I remember because I still to this day, that was 2008 I still have not eaten eggs.  I had egg salad with mayo in it and I got so sick that I thought I was having a heart attack. I was at the gym working out and I was jamming my fist into my stomach because I was like oh my gosh, and it started here. I could feel the pain moving down and I need to go home, I need to go home. And part way home I had to pull over the car because I thought I was going to pass out. I was in so much agonizing pain. It goes to show you, and you're right, that's a very good point to make and to clarify for people that if you go it alone it can be a real challenge to pinpoint exactly what's going on. And then also too, and this is one my biggest regrets, my practitioner never told me what celiac disease was. And celiac disease is different than being sensitive to gluten, because celiac disease is an autoimmune disease. So there's a lot more implications if you have an autoimmune reaction to something. So I never got tested.  So could I go and get genetic testing now to find out if I have one of the two or both of the celiac genes? Sure. At this point [Unintelligible 00:15:48]. But I'm not going to go any gluten for six weeks in order to get an endoscopy with a biopsy. That's considered the gold standard. I would advise somebody if you're going to go it alone just be aware, if you find gluten bothers you you got to go back to a gastroenterologist and find out if you have an issue beyond just being sensitive to gluten. Because having celiac disease predisposes you to developing other autoimmune conditions.  Like Hashimoto's thyroiditis for example, you're four times more likely to develop Hashimoto's. So most people who develop one autoimmune disease are more likely to end up with multiples. And that's not good. That's a state where you're body's attacking itself. So my biggest regret, that's why I say to people, it's not good to go this alone is that you can end up being in a state of uncertainty for a very long time. And that can catch up with you down the road if you don't do it the right way. I always think the most efficient way to do it is the right way from the get-go, not have to figure it out later on when there's a huge problem.  Dr. Veronica: One thing I just want to clarify for people, you said the only way to get diagnosed with celiac is to get an endoscopy. There are other tests that you can get that are not invasive now, that are very, very predictive of it. If you have one of these sensitivities then you have to go to a doctor. And it's not usually a gastroenterologist. It's usually a functional wellness specialist type doctor that's going to know, "Okay, we need to get this or that to figure out whether or not you look like you have celiac versus you don't have celiac." And so understand there are other ways to test this other than cleaning yourself out and having somebody scope you. Because I know that prospect will scare people right away. There are many invasive ways that are not painful to figure it out and then you could be on the road. And you want to know, because if you're feeling miserable you're making yourself sicker, and autoimmune diseases have all kinds of ugly complications including organ failure. So you don't want to just do it.  And let me just say, the number one cause of these autoimmune disease are food sensitivity. Food sensitivity is what's causing a lot of this so you have to understand what you're sensitive to. Let's talk a little bit more as we're talking about gluten some of the big terms right now. You mentioned one of them. I see it a lot of time, leaky gut.  I talked to people about leaky gut, and whenever I see somebody like Jennifer, their tests come back after I do testing, and they're sensitive too. There's 90 foods tested, they're sensitive to 80 of them. I don't say, "Stop eating everything." I say, "They have leaky gut and so therefore we have to do  a digestive repair." And there's a particular protocol for that. That's what I say. You're sensitive to everything, leaky gut. Jennifer, in layman's terms to the audience tell people what I just and why I said it from your perspective. Jennifer: Essentially from my perspective as well, to give people a little bit more of clarity. If you go to a regular doctor and you say, "I think I have leaky gut." They're going to be like, "You have what? What is that? Excuse me? That's not a real thing."  You'd want to use the term gut permeability because that's the correct medical term for it. And there actually is a lot of data out there and a lot of research around gut permeability. One really interesting study that came up recently, and maybe I'll talk about this in a moment after I explain what leaky gut is just in layman's terms. But there is a lot of interesting research as you said to go back to that whole thing about autoimmune disease. That food sensitivity specifically gluten actually play a huge role in altering what can essentially stay within your digestive track and what sneaks out into your body. Realize that you're digestive system, that tube if you want to think it as a host, so the stomach to the small intestine, to the large intestine, etc., technically the outside of your body. Even though we think of inside it's the outside. And that hose there's only one cell layer of thickness that constitutes that host. So you've got one cell layer that's preventing you from getting exposed to bacteria, parasites, viruses, food particles, all sorts of things.  What can happen with gluten, and actually this is the study that I was talking about. They said they took three different groups of people, three or four actually. They took people with celiac disease, individuals who were I believe gluten sensitive and then healthy individuals who reacted not at all to gluten. And they exposed them all to gluten and looked at the gut permeability. That means essentially could particles pass from the host into the body. They shouldn't be able to do that. That's not actually good. In all cases, no matter whether you are healthy or not gluten increased the permeability of everybody's digestive track, AKA, the hose. Dr. Veronica: I'm going to reiterate this. I want to reiterate this. I'm familiar with the study obviously and I heard one doctor say it at a conference gluten will eventually get everybody. Gluten will eventually get everybody. What Jennifer told you, here's what the study says, what the bottom line is gluten will get you even if you're not sensitive today, ultimately you will begotten.  There's three groups of people here. You have celiac disease, you have a genetic predisposition. You're never going to be able to handle it. Horrible for a gluten. Then there's other people who just are more sensitive. Their system's more sensitive and it gets turned on. And those depended usually. And so if you're eating less you might not even realize that it was gluten.  I'm one of those people. I'm sensitive to wheat. I never even realized it because I didn't have a ton of wheat in my diet. So I never realized what was happening. I couldn't put it together. There it is. Because I eat it today three days later is when you're having a problem.  Group number two, sensitive, they go from people like me who it's relatively mild, to the Jennifer's of the world who, oh my god, you can't even stand in a room with her when she eats wheat. And then there's the third group of people that they have the iron stomach, and the iron stomach means they can pretty much take everything they're not really sensitive. But what we found is in all of these people, even in the people with the iron stomachs who are not sensitive, it will begin to breakdown their digestive system if they eat enough of it. And so people have to understand you eat too much gluten eventually it will get you. And this is why if you're somebody who you noticed over the years has gotten worst, and worst, and worst, this is how food sensitivities work. And that's what happens to the iron clad people. Gluten will get everybody and especially in this country, where it's genetically modified. And so let's go into the segue about what you know about the food supply here. You talked about traditional versus non-traditional. This is important in you schooling people. Talk about that Jennifer. Jennifer: I guess the issue with the food supply, I have a lot of friends at work in the food industry. One thing that I came to learn as a result of their deciding to start food companies was that our food supply is inundated with wheat. There's wheat everywhere. It's in most factories. They find wheat or contamination of gluten.  By the way, just to be clear with everyone, gluten is not necessarily wheat. It can be other gluten-bearing grains. You have wheat, you have barley, and rye. Oats are an example of a contaminated grain. Spelt is a form of wheat. Farro, einkorn, those are all forms of wheat.  And so unfortunately you can't just pick a product off the shelf that isn't more gluten free and look at the ingredients on the back. Let's just pretend it's nuts for example. You're at the grocery store and you want to pick up a package of nuts. People will see maybe a warning on the back that'll say, "Made in the same facility that contains wheat, eggs, dairy, soy..."  They don't legally have to disclose that information to you. That's something that a company will put on the back of the product. But the reason they do that is because wheat is just everywhere, and so is gluten. And it becomes a problem for people who are not just allergic to wheat itself but also people who are sensitive to gluten, people who have celiac disease and other autoimmune diseases. It's important to understand this is where the knowledge gap really becomes quite apparent with people. Consumers especially don't understand any of this. They think that this was made in a facility that is sterilized and clean so there shouldn't be any risk of gluten being in this because it's rice. Unfortunately if the bag of rice isn't marked gluten free believe it or not there's about a 30% chance that that rice is contaminated with gluten. There was a study done of gluten free grains that were tested for gluten contamination. This was several years ago and they found that about 32% of those grains have gluten in them because they were exposed or contaminated at some point along the way. It's why if you go gluten free and you're still going to eat oats you have to find oats that are certified gluten free. Because the processing that goes on, it's typically on same equipment. The fields are usually, oats and wheat are side by side. So there's a lot of issues with that. And no, Quaker Oats, unless they're marked certified gluten free are not gluten free. I've had friends actually test them with testing kits, they're not gluten free.  So it's important to understand, you think that a sterilized facility is going to eliminate your gluten problem, that's not true. And that's actually not the case of your kitchen either. Because gluten can hide in a number of different areas like cutting boards, toasters, pasta strainers. We think that we just do a once over and it's good. "I'm just going to brush off the cutting board after I cut some bread and I'm going to make my gluten free whatever." That's not how this works. Gluten's not a virus. It's not bacteria. You can't cook it away. You can't just brush things off and say, "It looks clean. I don't see any gluten. There's no crumbs." It actually only takes a very small amount to make most people sick. A small crumb actually is the amount that it takes to make people sick. So it's important to understand the ins and outs not only in your own kitchen but also what happens in the food industry. It forces you essentially to become your own advocate not just for your health when you go to the doctor's office, but additionally when you go to buy food.  And so one thing that I advise people of just to keep things simple, to keep your sanity is to buy foods that happen to be gluten free. There's plenty of healthy gluten free... because if you're sitting here thinking, what can I eat. Gluten's in everything. There's a lot of food that's gluten free. The problem is when it's packaged.  The first thing I always tell people, and Dr. Veronica I'm sure you're a big fan of this. I tell people when you go to the grocery store the first spot you should go is to the wall of green along the one side and fill your cart with that. Don't go to the fruit section. Don't head into the cereal aisle or the packaged fruit area, go to the wall of green and start eating real fruit. Vegetables more so than fruit, but you want to have a variety of different colors in your diet. Those items are all gluten free naturally. You can have poultry, you can have fish, you can have beef, you can have all sorts of meats, eggs. Most dairy, you just have to be kind of careful with yogurts and stuff that's, again, very processed. And nuts, seeds, legumes, and there are gluten free grains. There's plenty of them out there. There are plenty of gluten free products as well. It's just important that you look for a gluten free label. If you're a celiac you should look for certified gluten free because there is always that issue that nobody's regulating the gluten free claim that is made on packaged products. It's required by the FDA that a product test under a specific threshold in order to qualify as gluten free, and that threshold's 20 parts per million. That said unless the FDA gets enough complaints that people have gotten sick, which is what happened with Cheerios, they don't do anything. They're not randomly going and testing the company or saying, "Hey, are you checking where your ingredients came from?"  That's why certified gluten free is always better because there's a protocol in place. They're actually testing those products to be 10 parts per million, sometimes five, sometimes three parts per million. They do it regularly. They check the batches. They find out if the raw ingredients are gluten free. They store them in a particular manner that makes sure that there's no cross circulation of air, believe it or not.  Because think about it, a flower floats through the air that doesn't contaminate the ingredients, it doesn't contaminate the equipment. And that if it is processed, and I would tell people don't flip out if something is made on the same equipment as other things that are made with wheat because if it's certified gluten free they, number one, have to make sure that the equipment is really cleaned appropriately. And number two, they're testing the batches. There's accountability there's all that stuff. And yes, every once in a while there's a recall. It's not often but as with anything in life. So that's why you want to focus your diet around real food. And if you want to indulge in a gluten free food product once in a while that's alright. It's not the end of the world. But I believe that real food is the best way to go. Plus, if you've been sick for a long time you want to get the most bang for your buck with nutrition. And frankly there's a lot more nutrition in real food than there is in something like processed rice bar. Dr. Veronica: Okay. Let's talk about you have particular tips that I think are just excellent for people to think about. You ran over some of those tips as you were talking but let's go through the few pointers that you like to tell people, when you're going gluten free here are some tips that I want you to think about ahead of time. Not just looking at the gluten, you've talked about the certified versus the not certified rate. What other tips do you tell people when they're going gluten free? Jennifer: My number one rule that goes with that is don't be a food detective. You're not Food Babe. I know everybody's like, Food Babe, she helped us find yoga mat material in our Subway sandwiches. That's all well and good but you can't find gluten in your food. I'm sorry. It does not work. You can't scan an ingredients list... Dr. Veronica: I'm in multiple of these very large gluten free Facebook groups and I cannot tell you, it angers me so much that people keep posting up pictures of the product with the ingredients and they're like, "Do you think this is safe?" I'm like, "I'm sorry. Do any of us work for these companies? I don't know what's in this. I don't know how it was processed. I don't know anything." Maybe the garlic was contaminated with gluten. Maybe the pasta sauce was contaminated with gluten because of [Unintelligible 00:32:11]  Dr. Veronica: I really think rule number one, because... Jennifer: Don't be a food detective. Dr. Veronica: You hit a pain point for me with the Facebook groups. You have to realize being a physician who has holistic, real education and clinical experience, real, not just my experience of one, I go into these groups and it's a peer-to-peer. And I see the reason why you're sick is because you're listening to your peer and not somebody who really knows something. Jennifer: Correct. Dr. Veronica: Rule number one should be don't get your advice from Facebook. You need support but you need to invest some time into getting advice from people who really have some knowledge and background. So rule number one is going to be don't get your advice from Facebook. What's the matter with you? Jennifer: Correct, I agree with you. Dr. Veronica: Number one, don't be the food label. Number two, let's go and see some more. Jennifer: Number two, do not buy from bulk bins. Even if you're like, "Oh, but it's rice but it's nuts." You don't know where the spoon was put. You don't know if they were cleaned. You don't know anything. So no bulk bins unless you go into a dedicated gluten free grocery store. You have to swap out your cutting board, any utensils. And yes, if you have bamboo or whatever, anything that's wooden, wood-like has to go. You cannot use it anymore. If you're going to do a toaster you got to get your own that's separate from the other toaster. You can't clean it. There's no way. It's not worth it.  And a pasta strainer is non-negotiable, unless it's one of those really nice ceramic ones where it doesn't have little tiny crevices. I would just say you got to get new ones because you're never going to be able to clean all those little nooks and crannies if it's like a wire or even a plastic one. As far as condiments are concerned you have to have your own condiment jars. Here's the thing. If you're family is willing to do this with you and get onboard that makes life a whole lot easier, because then you're just buying one of everything and everyone is agreeing within the household to just keep it gluten free. And that's cool and that's usually the easiest and the best way to go. And when everybody goes out they can eat whatever they want. The gluten free person eats gluten free and you can have a hamburger with a bun fine.  But if people are not willing to do that you have to have multiple condiments. You have to have ones that are marked for gluten free only and ones for everybody else. You cannot even share those squeeze bottles because if you actually watch people with squeeze bottles they touch the bread. So those bottles are contaminated so you can't use those. Again, you have to get all new condiments any time the knife goes in new condiments. So it's got to be brand new peanut butter, brand new jam, brand new whatever. And make sure they stay gluten free only. You want to pay attention to body care products and especially lip products. Because ladies, Dr. Veronica, you know that you're eating your lipstick. I eat my lipstick. We all know we're all eating lipstick and it's very common that gluten is added to lipstick to keep the... It's like a binder as you said. It's like glue. It helps hold things together. Dr. Veronica: That's the question about that when you're talking about those products. What should people be looking for on the label to know whether or not it's okay. Because you... Jennifer: You really can't. Dr. Veronica: ...and I can't tell... This is what I tell to people. People say, "What should I buy and how do I know it's good?" I said, "Listen, I don't know. And so I know you don't know." If you think you know that's fine but I can't figure out this so you can't figure out either. What do you tell people? Nobody wants to go like [Unintelligible 00:35:56], so what do you tell people about it? Are there products that are better or...? Jennifer: Yes. There are products and companies that do serve these... We're considered a specialty group, right? Anybody' that's looking for vegan cosmetics, or gluten free cosmetics, or allergen free cosmetics, any of that kind of stuff you're a specialty group. And yes, there are companies that help work with us and are willing to go that extra mile. That means that you really need to do some research. As far as I'm not the best resource for what makeup has gluten free in it but there is somebody who is. I don't know her name but her website is glutenfreemakeupgal.com. And she is constantly reviewing stuff.  I'll use Red Apple Lipstick. They're really good. I apologize. There's a bunch of companies, like I don't even know their names anymore that will send me stuff and I'll use. But I'm mainly concerned with what goes on or around or in my mouth. Anything dental I want to make sure my toothpaste is gluten free. My floss is gluten free. My mouthwash is gluten free. Lipstick, ChapStick, lip balm. I'm not personally so concerned with all the rest of my face like foundation and all that stuff because I don't react to it. Some people have that issue where they do. And so for them it's important to go all out. That said with body care products I do have to use gluten free shampoo because my scalp gets incredibly scaly when it's exposed to gluten. There are a few companies now that do offer really great gluten free body care products, Mineral Fusion is one. There are two companies that have certified their products as gluten free. Jason has a whole line that's certified as does Avalon Organics. They were actually the first two body care products ever to get certified. Dr. Veronica: Alright, I'm familiar with some of those... Jennifer: Yeah, and they're sold at Whole Foods and you can buy them on Amazon if you're not in your Whole Foods. These aren't crazy wackadoo companies. They're major brands. Nature's Gate is another good one. Kiss My Face is another good company as well. There's a lot of companies now that they're offering this.  And you also want to be careful of sunscreen because sunscreen does run down your face. You don't realize if you're rubbing it on who on earth goes to wash their hands after putting on sunscreen? Nobody. Actually I do have a list of gluten free sunscreens on my website that I posted a few weeks ago that I personally called the companies.  I checked the list that were old because everyone was referencing these lists from 2005 and I was like, that seems kind of old. I should call these companies. And I came to find that 85% of those lists were wrong. They weren't correct. I have an updated list of all the companies that I personally contacted, that I spoke to somebody, or I got an email back explaining exactly what they did. That's up on my website. You have to be careful of supplements, over-the-counter drugs, and prescription drugs. So you need to speak, if you are gluten sensitive or you have celiac, you've got to avoid gluten, you have to tell your pharmacist every single time like, "Hey, can't have gluten. Does this have gluten in it?" Remind them because sometimes they'll change the formulary. Sometimes they'll change suppliers. There can be all sorts of problems.  Your doctor's not going to know that you're now gluten sensitive. Dentists actually are a lot better about it than traditional doctors because they're operating in your mouth. And so yes. Gloves are safe. Powdered gloves are okay. I actually called because of my dad, I thought, "Oh my gosh, all those powdered gloves," and I was wearing the powdered gloves, and I thought I was getting gluten on my hands. And it turns out that they're well aware of it. And so it's cornstarch. If you have a corn allergy just FYI, powdered gloves have cornstarch on them. Dr. Veronica: So true. There's a couple of other things that you talk about like being aware of pet treats and things like that. And also if you're gluten free to make sure you do your gluten free cooking first. And so that's a great thing. Remember if you're making multiple meals. But some other type of stuff that's going on out here are for instance going to restaurants and apps and things like that. First, apps, what do you say about apps that help people with a gluten free lifestyle? Jennifer: Apps can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. They are great because they give you options and it helps narrow down your search especially in whatever area you're in, whether it's your local area you're traveling. The downside is that they're crowd sourced. So just like you don't like Facebook groups it's sort of a similar situation that you have all these people who don't know how to dine out, going to restaurants, don't know how to ask the right questions, or just simply don't know what to ask at all.  And then posting up the reviews, saying, "Oh my gosh, that food was amazing. The fries were fantastic." I'll show up to the restaurant and I'll be like, "Do you have a dedicated fryer? Do you have this? Do you use that?" And then I'm like, "That review is completely wrong. The fries aren't safe. Why are these people saying this is safe?" Because they don't know.  You have to take the apps and any reviews with a total grain of salt and do your own homework. And to be honest with you I train clients on how to dine out. Because once you know how to do it it's a lot easier. But it's not as simple as just going and like, "I need gluten free." That's not enough to ensure that you're [Unintelligible 00:41:39]  Dr. Veronica: When you say double and triple check your meal what do you mean by double and triple check your meal? How do you do that? Jennifer: When a waiter comes to your table with your meal you say, "Wow, that looks great. That's gluten free, right?" And then he'll go, "I think it is." "Okay. Could you double check that with the chef? Can you just double check that I got the right plate?"  The thing that's always a concern is that when restaurants don't serve on different plates... Some restaurants like P.F. Chang's have totally different set of plates that identifies your meal. It separates your meal from the other people's meal at the table. Dr. Veronica: I'm glad you mentioned P.F. Chang's because P.F. Chang’s is great at that, and how do I know why? Because I'm very sensitive to soy. Not all but I don't know what P.F. Chang’s is doing. I would go to P.F. Chang’s I love to taste their food. I love it. And I'd get so sick always. I ate at another Chinese restaurant and eat a little bit of soy and I'd be fine. P.F. Chang’s I feel like I was going to die.  So one day everybody decided they were going to P.F. Chang’s. I'm not going to be the party pooper and say I can't go there. I went. I got their menu that was gluten free, soy free, and I was absolutely fine. They obviously know how to do it. Because before I can tell you eat in that same restaurant I feel like we have to stop on the side of the road like you said because I thought I was going to die. I would have those kind of reactions. Jennifer: There's extra preparations that restaurants will go through. That's why people get mad when their food takes so long to come out. I'm like, you know what, I'm getting a safe meal. I don't care if I have to pay a dollar, two dollars, or three dollars extra. If I know that, number one, I'm not going to be running to the bathroom every 10 minutes, which is by the way embarrassing and humiliating depending on who you're out with. And it just feels awful and you want to go home. So it doesn't make dining out fun.  Number two, if it's safe I'd rather eat safe food if it cost me a little bit extra than complain. I just thing we have to look at the bright side of things in life. I think a lot of people get very negative and skeptical, and they nitpick on things that don't really matter. To me it's more important to have safe food even if it means taking an extra five or ten minutes, or that it costs a little bit extra. I'd rather the restaurant go the extra mile. Dr. Veronica: We mentioned P.F. Chang’s particularly because we have both found whatever they're doing to keep people safe is working. In your experience have you found any other restaurant names that you know that you feel also have a really good protocol to keep people safe, or is it just restaurant to restaurant? Because I found P.F. Chang’s to be in the different ones, they seem to know how to do it. Jennifer: There's a protocol in place that restaurants as a chain will create. Some are certified by consultants to be able to handle gluten free diners like you and I. There's a program through Beyond Celiac. They were formerly called the National Foundation for Celiac Awareness. They have a program called Great Kitchens. And they train restaurants on how to handle gluten and such in the kitchen so that we will get safe food.  In the Philadelphia area The Couch Tomato is a great restaurant to go to. They've been trained. They proudly put emblem of the The Great Kitchen seal because they have to go through a process and keep getting that updated and renewed every so often. They're great. There are some chains that are pretty good about it. I know Maggiano's is really great about it. Dr. Veronica: Oh really? Okay. Jennifer: Seriously, go on a gluten free app like Find Me Gluten Free and start checking things out. They'll usually be marked. They'll tell you if they've gone through The Great Kitchen Program. Let me just give you one quick example. There's a restaurant in Philadelphia called Sazon. They're amazing. It's a Venezuelan restaurant. They're certified gluten free through the The Great Kitchen Program. I thought that because I was ordering something off the menu, this is a while back and it was marked in the gluten free section that it was automatically gluten free. And I didn't have to tell them that I was gluten free. It turns out that what I ordered was fried in a shared fryer. That was the lesson to me, that if you're gluten free no matter where you eat you have to tell them upfront. Even if you see it's marked gluten free next to it, a kitchen has to go an extra mile when they know that you need to be gluten free. The responsibility is on to communicate that clearly, not just to pick something that looks good and call it a day and hope for the best. They're not mind readers.  That was just [Unintelligible 00:46:35] and I've shared that with clients ever since then is to be very clear, be very upfront. The best thing to do is make reservations. Tell the person who takes the reservation, "Hey, by the way we have somebody in our party or I'm in the party and I'm gluten free." Let them know upfront. Try not to dine out at the prime times. Don't go to lunch at noon. Go at 11:45 when they're not busy. Then you're going to get more attention and they're not going to be a rush in the back.  Or if you go out to dinner, depending on where you are just don't go at the prime time. Make a reservation when you can. Be very clear with the waiter upfront. Ask for help if you need it. Talk to the chef if need be. And if you're really just uncomfortable then thank them so much for trying to help you but say, "I'm not comfortable eating this." It is what it is. But there's a lot more restaurants out there that are trying to cater to dietary needs than they were three years ago especially depending on where you live. But again, I don't have any issues traveling anywhere. I traveled on a book tour and I was okay. You can go in any grocery store and find plenty of gluten free food even if they don't have a gluten free section, because what, the whole produce section is gluten free. And so I don't want people to leave this conversation thinking this is like massively hard. So I guess it's like becoming a parent, you got to figure it out. And to be honest with you, it shouldn't take you more than two to three months to get this down. If you don't have the time to do the research then you need to go get help and you need to ask somebody to help you that way you can get it done. Because the longer you expose yourself to gluten the leakier your gut will be. So take it back full circle.  The leakier your gut will be that unfortunately increase your risk as you share Dr. Veronica of increased food sensitivity. So increased reactions, increased being sick, increased autoimmunity, all sorts of things. It's not like, "Oh I ate gluten in this one. I'll wake up tomorrow and be fine." No, it is a process that happens through your body over a series of days, weeks, months. So no one exposure is not just like, "Oops, that was this one meal and now I'm fine." Not like that. Learn how to do it right the first time is the most efficient way and you're going to get better faster. Dr. Veronica: When we talk about doing it right I'm going to tell you from my perspective as a physician and doing coaching, very high level health coaching where I'm helping people with strategic eating and targeted supplement, what is doing it right to me look like?  First of all as Jennifer pointed out, going to somebody who knows how to ferret out the diagnosis in the first place or what's going on or the sensitivity in the first place. This doesn't happen in regular doctor's offices. It just doesn't happen at regular doctor offices. Realize it, deal with it, get over it. [Unintelligible 00:49:36] you're going to have to make an investment of both time and money to find somebody who knows what they're doing.  Why do I say the investment of time? Because people who know about this are just not around every corner so you may have to travel. They invest enough money because those of us who do this realize that insurance is not friendly to anybody who has these issues. And so therefore we don't deal with insurance because they just make life more of a headache and say no, no, no. So upfront instead of dealing with insurances all day we say, "Here's what it's going to be. Here's what we're going to get. And we move in life." So you're going to have to make some type of financial investment. So understand I just upfront want people to know that, if you're not willing to make the investment... First of all you got to make the investment in good quality food. So if you're willing to make the investment in good quality food then you're going to stay sick. That's just the bottom line.  But then expanding your team, so what else does the team look like? Once I've said, "Hey, this is what you're sensitive to and you need to figure out how to do it." And I give you the initial coaching and some initial background. And I've sent you to the computer with every day email about your first day it's been gluten free. And here's your little manual which is... Most doctors you realize they're not doing it on this level. Then you have to find somebody to partner with you who's going to help you do it even better level. And those are people like Jennifer. That's why I say we got to have somebody here to start on the path.  But most of the time a lot of practitioners will say, "You have this. Don't eat this." And then they don't tell you how to do it. And so when I do coaching, which is different than just giving out a diagnosis it's, "Here's how you start down the pathway." But then you have to have partners for life.  You said to me, I know you hate these Facebook groups. No, I don't hate Facebook groups. I think they're very entertaining because there's a lot of misinformation on it. So I don't hate them because they make me laugh most of the time. But on the other side, the more serious side I get concerned that people rather than going to experts, true experts who know...  Listen, I'm not an expert. I'm not authority. An expert is somebody who's self-proclaimed. I have no education, training, and experience. I'm an authority, you're an expert. Stop it with the Facebook experts and get people who have real background authority. Jennifer would be one of those people too because she has some real education and training that backs up her personal experience, and now she's worked with a lot of people. Plus she was in there with that seeing real patients.  If I can't say it anymore, where people fail the most, number one secret is you have to have the right team. Jennifer: You do. Dr. Veronica: People fail. You go to university of Google. You have all the pieces, you've done all the reading, you're a cocktail party expert but yet you can't implement it and you're running to the bathroom every other day. Here we are. Now, here's the good piece about this. Jennifer has a gift. She has her free cheat sheet for her favorite gluten free brands. Everybody goes wild because, "I want to eat bread. I love bread." People are addicted to bread. Jennifer: I know. Dr. Veronica: If you're addicted to bread and think you can't go off of it, that's a neurotransmitter hormonal problem and we need to straighten that out. And then that makes your gluten free journey better.  Let me just say it again. If you feel like you can't give up, and I say give up gluten. And you feel like you want to murder me because I told you to get off of gluten. That means your hormones or your neurotransmitters are out of balance and there's ways through strategic heating and targeted supplements getting back in the balance and then you can do it. But then you're going to go eatbettergfbread.com. You get that free gift from Jennifer. Gluten Free School. If you Google just Gluten Free School, Jennifer's going to come up. I was just surfing the web one day and I just found her. And then we found out we're close to each other geographically and that was pretty cool. Jennifer I thank you. I'm sorry that you were sick in the beginning of your life but it's ended up being a blessing for a lot of people. And so for people like me, I can hand them off to you because I don't want to sit around and talk about gluten all day and all night. Go to Jennifer. What you have, talk to Jennifer. Jennifer: There's tons of free, great content on Gluten Free School. I went through the work and I've compiled everything. I keep it up to date. Like I said, I called the sunscreen companies. You don't have to do that. I believe that if I'm going to give out information it's something that I've referenced, that if I'm going to make a claim there's going to be a scientific reference that's based in real evidence to back things up. Not just something like mouse study and say, this is...  No, we've got to look at this from a real science perspective. If we want to be taken seriously as a community then we need to do the diligence behind, ensuring that the information we're providing people is accurate. And I know people are busy. I know that they don't know all this stuff. They don't have time to go get a master’s degree in nutrition. They don't have time to go and just do everything that you've done Dr. Veronica.  And so I think that's the real big piece to this is being willing to get a team together than help you navigate from point A to point B, my goodness think about all the time you save not being sick anymore. Dr. Veronica: Yeah, that's right. We take our knowledge together. I tell people, "Listen, by the time I've gotten to this point in my career I go... My wheels are turning and those are half a million dollar cogs in there and I'm willing to shortcut and give you my half a million dollars of information. You add it all with other people who have that kind of information that really works. And they get results. Jennifer has all these tools to help you get results in your life. I want to thank you for being on the Wellness revolution, that gluten free is not just a weight loss plan, it's not a weight loss plan. It's a way of life for people who have sensitivities. Thank you Jennifer. Jennifer: Thank you so much Dr. Veronica for having me. I really appreciate it. Female VO: Thank you for listening to the Wellness Revolution Podcast. If you want to hear more on how to bring wellness into your life visit drveronica.com. See you all next week. Take care. 

Jennifer R. Lieberman’s passion is not only infectious… it is literally transforming the way an entire industry thinks about health care and leadership.   If you want to gain access to truth behind what it takes to create collaboration and innovation, listen to this podcast!   Jennifer Liebermann is a Kaiser Permanente “intrapraneur” who is passionate about shaping the future of health.  In 2006, she launched Kaiser Permanente’s Garfield Health Care Innovation Center, the first of its kind. The Garfield Center enables patients and clinicians to envision the future of health care and create it in a safe, simulated environment.  Described as a “giant Montessori school for adults”, the Garfield Center draws on design thinking principles to ideate, prototype and spread innovation.   Throughout the podcast, you will hear candid answers to following questions:   How do you get people inside an organization as big as Kaiser Permanente to collaborate? How do you get buy-in at all levels? If innovation and collaboration are critical to a leaders success, what is the first step any organization must take to begin the process? How do you get people to feel empowered and take action? How do you get people to shift their behaviors when they’re used to working in a certain way?     To learn more about Jennifer, click here. You can learn more about Garfield Health Care Innovation Center by clicking here.   I hope that one day all leaders adopt your philosophy and commitment, Jennifer—Thank you for being a powerful force for innovation in our health care industry!   Here’s to Your Greatness, Misti Burmeister  

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Jennifer Pahlka Founder and Executive Director, Code for America Date: January 2, 2012 [intro music] Lucy Sanders: Hello, this is Lucy Sanders, CEO and Co-Founder of NCWIT, the National Center for Woman and Information Technology and with me today, Larry Nelson from w3w3.com. Larry, what's going on with old w3w3.com? Larry Nelson: Oh my goodness. We have so much fun, we interview so many people. We've even been doing it for 12 years now. I must say that this series is extraordinary for us, because what it does for young women, bosses, parents and the like, it's very good. So thank you. Lucy: Well, listeners will know, we ask women who have started tech companies as part of the series, pretty much the same eight questions and the richness of the answers never ceases to amaze me. Larry: Oh yeah. Lucy: I think today we are talking to yet another great entrepreneur in the technology sector, Jennifer Pahlka, who is the Founder and Executive Director of Code for America. Now, this is an awesome effort and I am going to describe it the way that Jennifer did in a recent talk. She says, "It's like a Teach for America or a Peace Corps for Geeks." Larry: Yes. Lucy: I just think that's so cool that people in government and city managers for example, who have projects that they think could benefit from web-based solutions and you can make an appeal to Code for America and get volunteer help to help build these projects out, really in some sense making government more open and giving citizens easier access to data. So, I think we are going to hear more about that. Welcome, Jennifer. We are so happy to have you here. Jennifer Pahlka: Thank you. I am very glad to be here. Lucy: This is not the first thing Jennifer has been. She is also a serial entrepreneur and has some extensive experience in gaming and media. Before we get off on your entrepreneurship discussion, Jennifer, why don't you tell us a little bit about the latest Code for America? Maybe you can tell us what projects like, "Adopt-a-Fire- Hydrant" are like? [laughs] Larry: Yeah. Jennifer: Sure, I'd be happy to. We are a pretty new organization, and we just finished up our very first fellowship year. We had 19 fellows work with us all year along and work with the cities, doing great projects. One of them is Adopt-a-Fire-Hydrant app, which came out of the fact the fellows go visit the cities for Fire Weeks in February and when they were there, our Boston team was treated to a massive Snow Apocalypse and one of the things they saw is that, the city is struggling just to clear the streets. They never really get to digging out the fire hydrant. But that the citizens were right in front of them and they could dig them out. So we created a little web app that allows citizens to claim a fire hydrant and agree to dig it out when it snows and the game dynamics on top of it that make it pretty fun. What's cool about that is that other cities who've seen this and adopted it as well. You wouldn't think that Honolulu has anything to do with Boston in terms of something like snow, but they have a similar problem. They need people to check the batteries in the tsunami sirens on the beach. Lucy: Oh my God. Jennifer: Too expensive for them to send crews around, checking them every week. So let citizens do that. Now it's also become Adopt-a-Siren and in Buenos Aires it's becoming Adopt-a-Park Bench and in other cities they are using it for other assets that are important to them. Lucy: Oh, it's so cool, because people who really care about being a good citizen are plugged in, in ways that they know they can make a difference and be helpful. Larry: Yes. Jennifer: Exactly, yeah. Lucy: Awesome. So, Jennifer, tell us a little bit about how you got into starting a technology company, like what got you into doing that? Jennifer: I wasn't a technical person. My first exposure to technology was actually in the video game industry, which is an incredibly dynamic interesting group to be in, because they are so creative and yet so at the cutting edge of technology. Video games are often breaking grounds in terms of graphics and sound, business models. It was a wonderful introduction not just to technology but community that's so creative and that made me really love technology. But doing conferences both in video game world and in the Web 2.0 world you are constantly talking to some of the smartest, brightest, most passionate people. You see that all of their efforts go towards building products or building services for companies that create a lot of value in our lives. But they don't really go toward building the public institutions that we all pay into and that we all believe should represent us. And so, as a result, without that talent, the public sector is really falling behind. I founded Code for America because I want some of the talent that I have seen over the course of my career in technology, think about building platforms for the public sector as well as the private sector. Start to close that gap between the innovation curve that we're all benefiting from in our personal lives and the way that government works. Lucy: How big do you think that gap is for the public institutions, just out of curiosity? How far behind are they? Jennifer: Well, there's that phrase, the future is already here, it's just unevenly distributed. Lucy: Yes. Jennifer: That's very true in city government. You've got some incredibly innovative projects. You've got a lot of very innovative people doing wonderful stuff. For example, here in San Francisco, they put sensors in the curbs so they know what parking spaces are taken and what aren't and they've got some complex algorithms that change the pricing of parking in real time in order to optimize to have just one space open per block in San Francisco. If you live in San Francisco, you know how important that is. There's never any parking in San Francisco. But if you do that, you reduce the number, you reduce congestion, you reduce people driving around the block, it had some environmental effects. That's an example of people. There's many others like that. They're doing really great cutting edge stuff, but then you've also got tons of departments and, even within the same city, you'll have different departments that are still running their technology on Coball databases, stuff that's extremely outdated. Not with just bad technology or outdated technology that doesn't have modern develop per community around it, but also with just very outdated approaches about how to provide services to citizens that's stuck in an 80s and 90s model. So, it really varies. I don't want to discount how great some of the government technology leaders are these days, but there's a very long tail behind that that we need to catch up. Lucy: Well, and for all you listeners out there with Coball skills. [laughs] Larry: Yes, Lucy, are you talking about yourself? Lucy: Actually, I took Coball in college. [laughs] I'm thinking I could probably make more money doing that than what I'm doing. Jennifer: You've got some cities that are going to their local community colleges asking them to teach Coball now so that they can fill those slots, which I'm not sure is really the way to go, buy hey. [laughs] Lucy: [laughs] Now look, you've got to go after the age people who are thinking about retiring and lure them out you know, for sure. Larry: I'm thinking when they have to and then deter from that a little bit to get to our next question. Lucy: OK. Larry: Jennifer, why are you an entrepreneur and what is it about you that entrepreneurship makes you tick? Jennifer: I don't think I thought of myself as an entrepreneur, really, until I came up with the idea for Code for America. I think what's important about that to young women who are thinking about this is that you don't have to feel like you're branded an entrepreneur from the time you're 18. I came up with this idea when I was 39, and I suddenly felt that I could be incredibly useful to the world if I made this happen. It was really the power of the idea and the notion that no one else was going to do it, that made me start this organization. It certainly took some risk. I'm not a particularly risk adverse person and that's probably one quality that's important. But it was really feeling like this needed to happen and that no one else was going to do it, that made me start Code for America. Lucy: I love that answer. Larry: Yes. Lucy: I think it's great. Along that path when you started Code for America, did you have people influence you, or did you have mentors, or role models, or who shaped your thinking, if anybody? Jennifer: Well, early in my career I worked for a number of very strong, powerful but also so caring and nurturing women at the upper levels as media companies that I worked for. Actually, mostly one media company that went through a number of mergers and acquisitions. The president of our group when I was at the game that all the press conference is a woman named Regina Redly. I think the way that connect with technology, the way that she took care of her people all the way that she made the work environment as important as the work outcome, very much influenced me. Later on, when I was starting the idea of Code for America, I was very much inspired by Tim O'Reilly, the guy who's credit with the Web 2.0 and who's been a big thinker in open source. He continues now to be one of my mentors. I was also very inspired by Gwen Mellor who own the Sunlight Foundation D.C. She is a little bit more on the politics side. But someone who's very clear about the effects she wants to have in the world, very engaging, very kind and supportive person. Sunlight Foundation was initially the physical sponsor for Code for America because she actually very concretely helped Code for America get started and I'm very grateful to her. Larry: Good, wow, with all the things you've done. Lucy: So far. Larry: So far, that's right. I can't help but wonder what is one of the toughest things or the toughest thing that you ever had to do in your career? Jennifer: It's a difficult question. There's a lot of testing with the bum and bust cycles in technology. Certainly, when you have to lay people off, it's very painful because it's easy for them to take it personally. I've seen all this people well, moving on in so I'm less afraid of it than I used to be but it's hard to see people feel demoralized. I would have to say that now the hardest thing with Code for America is with very competitive process. We can only take 25 people a year right now to do our fellowship. We have 550 people apply. So when someone standing up and raising their hand and saying I want a Code for America, I'm going to move across the country work for some soft stipend, work long hours, and do this crazy thing. They're saying they want to do that and we say sorry you're not chosen. That's probably the hardest thing because you want to honor that instinct and that commitment and that generosity saying they are willing to do it. Lucy: Interesting, so as a side question, are you funded through donations then? Jennifer: Primarily, yes, from foundations, from corporations, from individuals. We also charge the cities that get a fellow team for the year a small participation fee so that it is not all on a charitable community. Lucy: It's a great effort. For all you listeners out there with big wallets... [laughter] Jennifer: Please. Lucy: Please yes. Jennifer: In your holiday giving. Lucy: Absolutely, so if you were sitting here with a young person and giving them advice about entrepreneurship, what would you tell them? Jennifer: I think the biggest thing I would share with an entrepreneur about an entrepreneur is to really care. You have to care about what you're doing. You have to deeply care about the problem you are trying to solve and think it's an important problem, and care about the people that you work with. If you don't really care deeply about your work other people won't and you won't be successful. That's the heart I think of this notion that we want to inspire the tech community, men and women to work on stuff that matters. If you really care you are much more likely to be successful. Larry: That's wonderful. Once again, all the things you've done and you did you start out to be an entrepreneur and now you've become one. What are the personal characteristics do you think that are giving you the advantage of being an entrepreneur? Jennifer: A lot of people would talk about risk think that's an important when you do have to be able to take risk. I turned this organization with $10,000 in the bank for the Sunlight Foundation. That was it. When there was a lot more than was needed I quit my job, I didn't have any income for a while, that was important. I think personally for me I would have to say that my focus on a network in a community around what we do is probably in the most important. Somebody once said and I wish I knew who it was, "The time to build your network is before you need it." Lucy: Exactly. Larry: Yeah. Jennifer: I work in the conference industry. So my job was to know a lot of people and to have them care about the work we did and have them invest in the events that we did, in the content, in the ideas that we are promoting. I was lucky, and lucky that was what I was focused on for the first part of my career, because I did build a big network and I valued the people in my network very, very much. I am aware every day of how much the people who support our work and I am not just talking about our donors, though they are very important. I am talking about the people who come in and work, the fellows, the people who share our message on Twitter, whatever little thing people do because they care about our work. We exist because of them and I never want to take our network for granted. I think that's really helped build Code for America. Larry: Great. Lucy: Well, then that's so true about your network. You build networks, not necessarily with the intention that you are going to get something back from them, but because it's the right thing to do, to build those networks and to be in service to others and that's how the system works. I have seen so many people who really don't quite understand that. [laughs] Larry: Yeah. Jennifer: I think that's exactly why you need to build a network because you care about other people not because you want them to do things for you. Lucy: I know it's a little backwards just looking. Jennifer: No, I totally agree. Lucy: You're totally self-absorbed. So your starting Code for America, obviously you care very deeply about it. You are very busy with the getting a non-profit off the ground. I know it's really hard work. What is it that you do or what sort of tips can you pass along for balance between all the hard work and passion for Code for America and then your side life? Jennifer: That's an important topic for welfare for women, in particular, though I don't think should be for women in particular, I think it should be men and women. But it's always a challenge. It's been challenge for me before I started Code for America as well. There is a woman named Charlene Li, who runs Altimeter Group. She quit Forrester Group, but when she did, she blog something along the lines that's there is no such thing as work-life balances, its only disappointing and each party last which is a testament that you can see that that it is very difficult. I think I've seen this most effective for me is I have an eight-year-old daughter and my time with her is incredibly precious. I have her half time. When I am with her, I have the personal will, the power in me to actually turn off the vices, or if I have to respond to something else or tell her what it is and say, I am doing this. I am texting so and so for this reason and then I am going to turn my phone off. Knowing that that person needs me and that when I am paying attention to her, I get so much delight out of that interaction. It helps me create some boundaries between the work and home that I probably wouldn't have it, if I didn't have her. I am so grateful for my daughter in my life. Larry: I can relate to that. I have four daughters. Jennifer: Oh, you are very blessed. Larry: Yes. We certainly are. Jennifer, let me ask this. You've already achieved a great deal and we really appreciate and have a great deal of respect for the track you are on, but what's coming up next for you? Jennifer: It's funny, I don't think of myself as an ambitious person, but I do have some goals for Code for America that I would like us to see work not just in government technology at some point, but I think some of the approaches that we are taking to rebooting government should also be applied in education and that would be interesting for me. I don't know when or if it will happen, but I care a lot about education and I think that we could be putting more money into teachers and less money into administration if we find committees, principals that work, ++who you think was government. So that would be exciting for me, but beyond that I think hopefully what's next for me is more of work-life balance and I think that's really important. Larry: There you go. Lucy: Amen. Larry: Excellent. Lucy: And a great answer. Well, thank you so much for talking to us. Code for America, a great, great organization, growing and hopefully all you citizens, coders out there maybe can get involved. Thanks very much, I want to remind listeners that this interview can be found at w3w3.com and also at ncwit.org. Larry: You bet. Jennifer, thank you so much. Jennifer: Thank you very much for having me. Larry: Yes. [music] Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Jennifer PahlkaInterview Summary: Code for America’s Founder and Executive Director, Jennifer Pahlka describes her company as “Teach for America or Peace Corps for geeks.” Working in cities across the United States, Code for America is building a network of civic leaders who believe that there is a better way of doing things and want to make a difference using web-based solutions. Release Date: January 2, 2012Interview Subject: Jennifer PahlkaInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 17:31