Podcast appearances and mentions of david schnarch

Send us a textPassionate relationships require more than love—they need the right psychological dynamics to keep desire alive. When couples come to me feeling more like roommates than lovers, they're often surprised to learn that their sexual disconnection has less to do with libido or attraction and more to do with unrecognized emotional patterns.The truth about passionate marriages might surprise you. While emotional connection matters, your sexual relationship operates with separate dynamics that need specific attention. Differentiation—maintaining your sense of self while being emotionally connected—creates the foundation for desire. As relationship expert David Schnarch explains, people who struggle with differentiation often resort to control tactics or emotional distance rather than healthy interdependence.Your sexual connection is also deeply influenced by context, as Emily Nagoski brilliantly explains. Desire isn't simply spontaneous—it's responsive to your environment and circumstances. This means transitioning from daily responsibilities to intimate connection requires intentional shifts in mindset, not just spontaneous attraction. Meanwhile, Esther Perel reminds us that "fire needs air"—eroticism thrives in the space between partners, requiring some degree of mystery and novelty to remain vibrant.The good news? These dynamics can transform with intentional effort. Start by reconnecting with what makes you feel alive and embodied, practice differentiation by expressing needs without controlling your partner, and prioritize whatever helps you transition into a sensual mindset. Build erotic tension through flirtation and novel experiences, and commit to regular conversations about your sexual connection.Sexual disconnection isn't a life sentence—it's an invitation to grow together. Remember that having differing levels of desire is normal in every aspect of marriage. With understanding and the right tools, you can rediscover the passion that may have temporarily dimmed and create a sexual relationship that's fulfilling for both partners.Have questions about your own relationship dynamics? Reach out to me directly—I'm passionate about helping couples move beyond roommate syndrome to rediscover true intimacy and desire.

Sex in marriage can sometimes feel imbalanced—one person initiates while the other holds the power to say yes or no, or one partner's needs take priority over the other's. But what if there was a way to create a deeper, more fulfilling connection? In this episode, we explore the concept of mutuality in marriage, a powerful approach where both partners' needs, desires, and well-being are valued equally. Drawing from Dr. David Schnarch's insights, we'll break down what it truly means to love well in a sexual relationship—not out of obligation or self-sacrifice, but through a balanced, collaborative connection. So, what does mutuality look like in the bedroom? And how can couples cultivate more of it? Tune in to find out.

Are you truly living in alignment with your values, or do the expectations of others shape you? How do you begin to define your own character when emotional immaturity and narcissism are at play in your relationships? In this episode, we dive deep into what it means to build a sense of character and integrity—especially for those who may have spent years putting others' needs above their own. Through stories, reflection, and therapeutic insight, we'll explore how a pathologically kind person can break free from people-pleasing patterns and begin to understand their true values and beliefs. Discover how character is not only about the values you hold but also what you're willing to tolerate or excuse in yourself and others. We'll unpack David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance to guide you in building a strong, flexible sense of self, showing how true integrity is about standing steady in your own identity, even when external pressures try to sway you. Join us to learn how you can move beyond external validation, live from your core, and start showing up as your authentic self in all your relationships. You find Riley Hope's "Not My Job" streaming information here: https://linktr.ee/rileyhopematlock 00:00 Introduction and Welcome 00:17 Listener Engagement and Social Media 01:13 Riley Hope's Anthem 01:38 Evander's Story Begins 02:32 The Social Club Dilemma 04:02 Sam's Concerns and Evander's Changes 06:35 Tony's Personal Reflection 11:48 Understanding Integrity and Character 17:51 Tom and Jerry: A Case Study 29:10 Navigating Relationships with Integrity 34:53 Navigating Integrity and Character in Relationships 35:18 Challenges for the Pathologically Kind Person 37:47 Understanding Emotional Immaturity and Narcissism 46:12 Pat and Chris: Real-Life Scenarios 53:31 Breaking Free: Strategies for Pat 01:01:31 Constructing the Crucible for Personal Growth 01:08:46 Final Thoughts on Integrity and Self-Discovery Are you truly living in alignment with your values, or do the expectations of others shape you? How do you begin to define your own character when emotional immaturity and narcissism are at play in your relationships? In this episode, we dive deep into what it means to build a sense of character and integrity—especially for those who may have spent years putting others' needs above their own. Through stories, reflection, and therapeutic insight, we'll explore how a pathologically kind person can break free from people-pleasing patterns and begin to understand their true values and beliefs. Discover how character is not only about the values you hold but also what you're willing to tolerate or excuse in yourself and others. We'll unpack David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance to guide you in building a strong, flexible sense of self, showing how true integrity is about standing steady in your own identity, even when external pressures try to sway you. Join us to learn how you can move beyond external validation, live from your core, and start showing up as your authentic self in all your relationships. You find Riley Hope's "Not My Job" streaming information here: https://linktr.ee/rileyhopematlock 00:00 Introduction and Welcome 00:17 Listener Engagement and Social Media 01:13 Riley Hope's Anthem 01:38 Evander's Story Begins 02:32 The Social Club Dilemma 04:02 Sam's Concerns and Evander's Changes 06:35 Tony's Personal Reflection 11:48 Understanding Integrity and Character 17:51 Tom and Jerry: A Case Study 29:10 Navigating Relationships with Integrity 34:53 Navigating Integrity and Character in Relationships 35:18 Challenges for the Pathologically Kind Person 37:47 Understanding Emotional Immaturity and Narcissism 46:12 Pat and Chris: Real-Life Scenarios 53:31 Breaking Free: Strategies for Pat 01:01:31 Constructing the Crucible for Personal Growth 01:08:46 Final Thoughts on Integrity and Self-Discovery

Have you ever wondered why your aging parent suddenly needs to arrive an hour early for everything? Or why, after knowing them your entire life, they suddenly appear to be trying to exert control and order at a level that you've never experienced? In today's episode of The Virtual Couch podcast, Tony Overbay, LMFT, takes us on a fascinating journey through the human brain, starting with the incredible story of Phineas Gage - the man who survived an iron rod through his head and lived to tell the tale (though he wasn't quite the same person afterward). From there, he dives into something most all of us are impacted by, either directly or through someone that we care about - anxiety. But not just any anxiety - we're talking about why our caveman's brains are still trying to protect us from tigers in the parking lot and how this shows up differently as we age. Tony breaks down the fundamental differences between normal aging, dementia, and Alzheimer's in a way that finally makes sense. Tony then breaks down a listener's email about their father's increasingly anxious behaviors. Tony unpacks powerful tools for handling these delicate family situations. Tony introduces the acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT) principle of psychological flexibility (think yoga for your emotions) and shares David Schnarch's “4 Points of Balance” to becoming more differentiated, which helps you maintain your sanity while staying connected to those you love. Tony explains Schnarch's 'crucible' as the transformative space where relationships grow or crack under pressure. Whether you're dealing with an aging parent, a challenging relationship, or just trying to understand why people do what they do, this episode offers the “why” behind our anxious and controlling behaviors and practical ways to navigate life's complicated relationships without losing yourself. 00:00 The Incredible Story of Phineas Gage 04:04 Introduction to the Virtual Couch 05:38 Listener's Email: Concerns About Aging Parent 07:40 Understanding Anxiety and Its Evolution 14:57 Distinguishing Dementia and Alzheimer's 17:33 Coping with Aging and Anxiety 24:50 Practical Advice for Managing Anxiety 24:59 Reframing Perspectives 25:09 Empathy and Understanding 25:25 Intentional Conversations 25:55 Meeting Halfway 26:12 Choosing Your Battles 26:54 Boundaries vs Ultimatums 27:12 Psychological Reactance 30:22 Differentiation and Emotional Autonomy 32:57 Four Points of Balance 38:30 Constructing Your Crucible 44:43 Final Thoughts and Takeaways To learn more about Tony's upcoming re-release of the Magnetic Marriage course, his Pathback Recovery course, and more, sign up for his newsletter through the link at https://linktr.ee/virtualcouch Available NOW: Tony's "Magnetic Marriage Mini-Course" is only $25. https://magneticmarriage.mykajabi.com/magnetic-marriage-mini-course Please follow Tony's newest Instagram account for the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast https://www.instagram.com/wutnpod/ as well as Tony's account https://www.instagram.com/tonyoverbay_lmft/ Subscribe to Tony's latest podcast, "Waking Up to Narcissism Q&A - Premium Podcast," on the Apple Podcast App. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/waking-up-to-narcissism-q-a/id1667287384 Go to http://tonyoverbay.com/workshop to sign up for Tony's "Magnetize Your Marriage" virtual workshop. The cost is only $19, and you'll learn the top 3 things you can do NOW to create a Magnetic Marriage. You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program, The Path Back, by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit Tony mentioned a product that he used to take out all of the "uh's" and "um's" that, in his words, "must be created by wizards and magic!" because it's that good! To learn more about Descript, click here https://descript.com?lmref=bSWcEQ

Infidelity—it's a word that can send shockwaves through even the most stable relationships. In our tech-driven world, the boundaries and expectations surrounding loyalty and commitment seem more convoluted than ever. Without clear communication and defined agreements, even the most well-meaning partners can find themselves entangled in misunderstandings and unanticipated crises. In this episode, we dive deep into the complexity of infidelity within contemporary relationships. We explore the importance of having candid conversations about monogamy and other expectations with your partner, guided by insights from experienced relationship experts. By examining real-life scenarios and discussing therapeutic concepts such as Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), we aim to equip you with practical tools for handling betrayal. Additionally, we delve into the nuanced process of forgiveness, self-compassion, and the potential for growth and transformation that can arise from relationship challenges. Dr. Bruce Chalmer is a psychologist in Vermont who has been working with couples for over thirty years. Through his teaching, consulting, and books, his ideas have helped thousands of couples and their therapists. Together with his wife Judy Alexander, Dr. Chalmer hosts the podcast “Couples Therapy in Seven Words.” His most recent book is "Betrayal and Forgiveness: How to Navigate the Turmoil and Learn to Trust Again.” Check out the transcript of this episode on Dr. Jessica Higgin's website. In this episode 06:41 Dr. Bruce Chalmer's profound exploration of forgiveness and betrayal in relationships. 10:31 How infidelity's evolving definitions complicate relationship expectations. 13:52 What forgiveness truly means: Accepting reality without condoning actions. 23:29 Three steps to forgiveness. 34:01 Struggles with emotional connection due to trauma. 40:53 How attachment system impacts security and emotional responses. 47:15 Communication issues often indicate deeper underlying conflicts. 49:16 Why only one partner can be upset simultaneously. 55:16 Why assigning good or bad is often misleading. Mentioned Betrayal and Forgiveness (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book) My Stroke of Insight (*TED Talks link) (video) Crucible Institute by Dr. David Schnarch (website) Intimacy & Desire by Dr. David Schnarch (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book) Resurrecting Sex by Dr. David Schnarch (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book) Passionate Marriage by Dr. David Schnarch (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book) ERP 110: How to Manage Two Majorly Conflicting Needs in Relationship ERP 015: Do You Have a “Unity” or “Journey” Mindset in Relationship? ERP 423: How to Transcend Trauma (And the Effects Experience in Relationship) — An Interview with Dr. Frank Anderson The Gottman Institute (website) Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication Connect with Dr. Bruce Chalmer Websites: brucechalmer.com | couplestherapyinsevenwords.com Facebook: facebook.com/drbrucechalmer YouTube: youtube.com/user/brucechalmer LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bruce-chalmer-95ab70305/ Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/couples-therapy-in-seven-words/id1517231158 Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship  Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins  Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/ Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation  LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins  Twitter: @DrJessHiggins  Website: drjessicahiggins.com   Email: jessica@drjessicahiggins.com If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here.  Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship.  Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here.  Thank you!   *With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Who are you? How do others view you? And why do we care so much about what others think of us, especially when they probably aren't spending as much time thinking about us as we think they are? When they do think about us, they see us through their own lens. It's time to discover who you are. So, how exactly do you do that? Tony Overbay, LMFT, reads a heartfelt letter from a long-time listener, Jamie, who is struggling with issues in her marriage and recognizing patterns from her childhood that affect how she interacts with her spouse and children. Tony explores the concept of the 'Looking Glass Self' by Charles Horton Cooley, discussing how our self-identity is shaped by our perceptions of how others view us. He explains how these early experiences impact our self-esteem and relationships, using examples from listeners and clients. Tony introduces the modern-day concept of the 'reflected sense of self' from David Schnarch's theories of differentiation and provides practical advice on overcoming the need for external validation, forming healthier attachments, and developing a stable self-identity. Join Tony as he navigates these deep psychological concepts and offers insights into creating more emotionally secure and fulfilling connections. 00:00 Listener's Heartfelt Letter 02:31 Introduction to Episode 424 03:10 Exploring the Concept of the Mirror 03:29 Charles Horton Cooley and the Looking Glass Self 09:00 Real-Life Examples of the Looking Glass Self 16:16 Differentiation and Emotional Independence 16:57 Balancing Connection and Individuality 18:47 The Reflected Sense of Self 27:00 Understanding Identity and Self-Worth 27:55 The Role of External Validation 29:25 Parent-Child Dynamics and Conditional Love 30:53 Emotional Neglect and Its Impact 33:21 Attachment Styles and Emotional Support 40:13 The Concept of Shame and Guilt 46:26 Overcoming Childhood Wounds 49:35 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Send us a Text Message.Could you be trauma-bonded to a narcissist? Are you battling a strange mix of love and fear? Lisa Sonni joins me this week to discuss trauma bonds--an intense connection to another person that is very difficult to break. We think we feel love when it's based on fear. Learn more about how to recognize if you're trauma-bonded and why it's so difficult to leave. Become a subscriber and get the Podcast Extra exclusive conversation about WHY identifying and breaking a trauma bond is so difficult. substack.com/@breakingfreenarcabuse or https://ko-fi.com/kerrymcavoyphd- Two places, the same cost, and the same great content!Books Mentioned: The Betrayal Bond by Patrick Carnes, PhDThe Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch, PhDAdult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson, PhDRecovering From Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson, PhD (Appendix contains the 10 Emotional Bill of Rights)Resources Mentioned: Strong & Unstoppable Retreat for Women Oct 3-6Healing Strong 12-Week Group Coaching with Lisa and KerryDr. McAvoy's Toxic-Free Relationship Club1:1 Coaching with Lisa SonniFollow Dr. McAvoy!YouTube: @kerrymcavoyphdInstagram: @kerrymcavoyphdFacebook: @kerrymcavoyphdE-mail: hello@kerrymcavoyphd.comNewsletter: https://breakingfreenarcabuse.substack.com/ or https://ko-fi.com/kerrymcavoyphdWebsite: https://www.breakingfreenarcissisticabuse.com/Kerry Kerr McAvoy, Ph.D., a mental health specialist and author, is an expert on cultivating healthy relationships, deconstructing narcissism, and understanding various other mental health-related issues. Her memoir, Love You More: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross, gives an uncensored glimpse into the dynamics of narcissistic abuse.As an Amazon affiliate, commission is earned from qualifying purchases at no cost to you as the customer.Start your healing after narcissistic abuse by joining Lisa Sonni and me for the Healing Strong Group Coaching, beginning August 22. Discover insights on gaslighting in relationships with Dr. Robin Stern on The Gaslight Effect podcast. Tune in for expert interviews and advice.Support the Show.

Tony delves deep into the DARVO technique—Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender—a common manipulation strategy often used by narcissistic or emotionally immature individuals to avoid accountability and shift blame. Tony explores the origins of DARVO, shares various examples, and introduces concepts like differentiation and David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance to navigate and manage emotionally abusive relationships. Learn how to identify and counter DARVO tactics and discover ways to improve emotional maturity and self-awareness in your relationships. 00:00 Welcome and Introduction 00:18 Understanding Acronyms 02:24 Introduction to DARVO 03:35 Breaking Down DARVO 05:52 Recognizing and Responding to DARVO 06:15 Introducing Pat and Chris 09:45 Differentiation and Four Points of Balance 25:48 Managing Stress and Anxiety 26:11 Changing Your Relationship with Thoughts 27:14 Calming Your Heart and Managing Emotions 28:09 Physical Reactions to Emotions 30:45 Grounded Responding in Relationships 31:12 Overreacting vs. Underreacting 33:08 Handling Criticism and Feedback 39:43 Meaningful Endurance and Personal Growth 47:02 Applying the Four Points of Balance 50:50 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Available NOW Tony's "Magnetic Marriage Mini-Course" only $25. https://magneticmarriage.mykajabi.com/magnetic-marriage-mini-course Find all the latest links to podcasts, courses, Tony's newsletter, and more at https://linktr.ee/virtualcouch Subscribe to Tony's latest podcast, "Waking Up to Narcissism Q&A - Premium Podcast," on the Apple Podcast App. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/waking-up-to-narcissism-q-a/id1667287384 You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program, The Path Back, by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit http://tonyoverbay.com and sign up to receive updates on upcoming programs and podcasts. Tony mentioned a product that he used to take out all of the "uh's" and "um's" that, in his words, "must be created by wizards and magic!" because it's that good! To learn more about Descript, click here https://descript.com?lmref=bSWcEQ

We live in an age when the meaning and purpose of life are often less clear than ever before. An age when we're asking questions of doctors we should be asking priests - but few priests seem able to provide meaningful answers to today's spiritual seekers. Enter Viktor Frankl. Frankl was a Jewish psychiatrist whose pioneering work known as Logotherapy has helped millions of suffering men and women begin asking the right questions of life and finding answers that satisfy their souls.  In this series, we explore Frankl's book The Doctor and the Soul. Fr. Bill's guest and tour guide is Tom Lavin, a therapist, teacher, and friend who has studied Frankl's work for years and helped many addicts and alcoholics find new or renewed meaning and purpose in their recovery. This episode explores the existential meaning of love. What it is … What is it not … And how to find it in recovery. Show Notes: Links to Tom's website and his LIVE BETTER television series can be Accessed here.   https://contextualscience.org/tom_lavin_mft_lcadc_acata_live_better_psychoeducat Video of Viktor Frankl The Doctor and the Soul via Amazon: (Many used copies should be available)  Link to First Corinthians XIII  M. Scott Peck on Love https://apathlesstravelled.com/love-what-it-is-what-it-is-not-and-what-its-role-is-part-2/  Bill Wilson's article on Emotional Sobriety  The Sexual Crucible by David Schnarch (used copies)  --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/fatherbillw/support

In this episode of the "Stronger Marriage Connection" podcast, hosts Dave Schramm and Liz Hale are joined by certified sex therapist Jessa Zimmerman. They delve into common sexual issues faced by couples, focusing on sexual desire discrepancies and strategies for maintaining a strong marital connection. Jessa provides invaluable insights into reactive and proactive desires, the sexual avoidance cycle, and the impacts of pressure and expectations on sexual intimacy. About Jessa Zimmerman: Jessa Zimmerman is a licensed couples’ counselor and nationally certified sex therapist. Sheworks in private practice in Seattle, WA. Over the course of her therapy career, she has focused almost exclusively on helping couples with their emotional and sexual intimacy. In her years of clinical experience, Zimmerman has treated hundreds of couples who have struggled to feel sexual desire and fulfillment. Her clients describe having a good relationship in other ways, but their sex life has become difficult to the point that they start to avoid sex. These are people who love each other but are struggling to have a sex life they both enjoy. She specializes in helping these couples who find that sex has become stressful, negative, disappointing, or pressured. She educates, coaches, and supports people as they go through her 4 pillar experiential process that allows them real world practice in changing their relationship and their sex life, guiding them to become easily intimate. Zimmerman received her Master’s in Psychology from LIOS college of Saybrook University andSex Therapist certification from the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors,and Therapists (AASECT). She has done extensive training in couples’ therapy, with a focus onCrucible® Therapy with Dr. David Schnarch. She is the author of Sex Without Stress; A Couple’s Guide to Overcoming Disappointment, Avoidance & Pressure. She is the host of the Better Sex Podcast and has appeared on numerous other podcasts as an expert guest. She is the creator of the Intimacy With Ease Method and founder of The Desire Spa, an online course for women with little to no libido. She is a regularly featured expert in the media, including Refinery29, Marriage.com, Business Insider, and Mind Body Green. She lives in Seattle with her partner. Insights: Jessa: One cannot fail in sex if they shift their mindset to view it simply as a source of pleasure and connection, without attaching to specific outcomes. By embracing this approach, sexual experiences can become easy and enjoyable, even if they differ from previous expectations or desires. The key lies in accepting and adapting to these differences, which opens limitless possibilities for enjoyment and satisfaction. Dave: Moods for sexual activity evolve over time, there is a contrast between the constant readiness (proactive mood) in early stages of relationships with the need to actively engage or transition into feeling ready (reactive mood) as time progresses. If couples only engaged in sex when both partners were spontaneously in the mood, they might seldom have sex. Love the concepts of reactive and proactive desire, and engaging physically can lead to a physiological response where the body releases dopamine and serotonin, aligning physical readiness with emotional desire. Liz: Sex is like going to a playground, we don't know how long we're going to stay. We're not sure what we're going to enjoy once we get there. But we are going to enjoy it. It's not about the outcome or the goal. Jessa Zimmerman Links: https://intimacywithease.com Visit our site for FREE relationship resources and regular giveaways: StrongerMarriage.orgpodcast.strongermarriage.orgFacebook: StrongerMarriage.orgInstagram: @strongermarriagelife Dr. Dave Schramm: https://drdaveschramm.com https://drdavespeaks.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrDaveUSU Facebook Marriage Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/770019130329579 Facebook Parenting Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/542067440314642 Dr. Liz Hale: http://www.drlizhale.com/

Tony Overbay, LMFT, discusses the critical role of differentiation in personal development and relationship growth. Sharing the story of a couple, Lisa and Mike, Tony illustrates how unresolved childhood dynamics can lead to emotional stagnation and superficial interactions in adulthood. He delves into the concepts of differentiation and emotional maturity, drawing on the theories of psychologists Murray Bowen and David Schnarch to explain how individuals can maintain their sense of self while fostering deep, meaningful connections with others. Tony offers actionable insights on embracing individuality, managing emotional reactivity, and the importance of self-soothing for achieving a balanced and fulfilling relationship dynamic. 00:00 Welcome to the Virtual Couch: Introductions and Announcements 01:20 Unpacking Emotional Baggage: Lisa and Mike's Story 04:27 The Dynamics of Disagreements: Analyzing Conflict Patterns 07:40 Embracing Discomfort for Growth: A Therapeutic Perspective 12:59 Understanding Differentiation: A Deep Dive into Emotional Maturity 18:52 From Bowen to Schnarch: Exploring Theories of Differentiation 22:20 Applying Differentiation: Real-Life Implications and Strategies 24:20 Breaking Familial Patterns and Emotional Systems 25:00 The Impact of Parental Emotions on Children 27:05 Exploring Schnarch's Concepts on Differentiation 28:19 Applying Differentiation in Relationships 32:24 The Importance of Emotional Maturity and Self-Work 35:24 Navigating Relationship Dynamics and Individual Growth 39:47 Embracing Differentiation for a Fulfilling Relationship 43:22 Practical Takeaways for Personal and Relationship Growth To learn more about Tony's upcoming re-release of the Magnetic Marriage course, his Pathback Recovery course, and more, sign up for his newsletter through the link at https://linktr.ee/virtualcouch Available NOW: Tony's "Magnetic Marriage Mini-Course" is only $25. https://magneticmarriage.mykajabi.com/magnetic-marriage-mini-course Please follow Tony's newest Instagram account for the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast https://www.instagram.com/wutnpod/ as well as Tony's account https://www.instagram.com/tonyoverbay_lmft/ Subscribe to Tony's latest podcast, "Waking Up to Narcissism Q&A - Premium Podcast," on the Apple Podcast App. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/waking-up-to-narcissism-q-a/id1667287384 Go to http://tonyoverbay.com/workshop to sign up for Tony's "Magnetize Your Marriage" virtual workshop. The cost is only $19, and you'll learn the top 3 things you can do NOW to create a Magnetic Marriage. You can learn more about Tony's pornography recovery program, The Path Back, by visiting http://pathbackrecovery.com And visit Tony mentioned a product that he used to take out all of the "uh's" and "um's" that, in his words, "must be created by wizards and magic!" because it's that good! To learn more about Descript, click here https://descript.com?lmref=bSWcEQ

In this episode, in recognition of this being episode 666, we go a bit dark and discuss the concept of normal marital sadism (a term coined by Dr David Schnarch), which refers to the intentional infliction of pain, cruelty, and hurt within a marriage. We explore various examples of normal marital sadism, such as poking fun at and embarrassing a spouse, lying to inflict pain, restricting the autonomy of your spouse, and manipulating them to establish compliance or gain dominance. Our conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing our own capacity for cruelty and the need to address it in order to maintain a healthy and fulfilling marriage. Takeaways Normal marital sadism refers to the intentional infliction of pain, cruelty, and hurt within a marriage. Examples of normal marital sadism include humiliating and demeaning others, lying to inflict pain, restricting the autonomy of others, and manipulating others to establish compliance or gain dominance. It is important to recognize our own capacity for cruelty and address it in order to maintain a healthy and fulfilling marriage. Denying the existence of normal marital sadism can lead to its prevalence and negative consequences in a relationship. On the Xtended Version ... What do we do about normal marital sadism? How do I address it? Get rid of it? Or, at the very least limit it's presence in my marriage? Enjoy the show! Sponsors ... AG1: Take ownership of your health this year with AG1. Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase exclusively at https://drinkAG1.com/sexymarriageradio The post Normal Marital Sadism #666 first appeared on Sexy Marriage Radio.

Co-conspirator and friend of the podcast, Dr. K Hixson, returns to share some exciting news about a true labor of love.We've joined up to create The Kiln, a comprehensive supervision and training program for pre-licensed therapists in Oregon. The Kiln will also offer continuing education to practicing clinicians.This venture was born out of our mutual frustrations and concerns with the direction, trends, and tendencies in the current state of our field, and our deep dedication and commitment to our work.Today, we're going to get into why we are bringing an apprenticeship lens to postgraduate supervision, pushing back on current paradigms in trauma treatment, and how you can join our trainings or become part of our very first cohort.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why many grad schools and supervision programs fail to train great therapistsThe two fundamental philosophies that define our approach with The Kiln Why we teach exposure-based trauma therapies and push back on anti-exposure biasWhy therapists need to be able and willing to confront themselvesTrauma processing modalities that we are excited about working with and teachingLearn more about The Kiln:WebsiteLearn more about Dr. K Hixson:WebsiteLearn more about Riva Stoudt:Into the Woods CounselingInstagramResources:Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence--From Domestic Abuse to Political Terror, Judith Lewis HermanBrain Talk: How Mind Mapping Brain Science Can Change Your Life & Everyone In It, David Schnarch

You know that feeling of growing apart from your spouse over the years, where intimacy and passion seem to fade into the background as life gets busy?In this episode, Robert and Sharla join Hailey Babcock of The Body Pod to provide a glimpse of hope in their discussion of rebuilding sex, intimacy, and friendship in marriage. They share from their own experience turning things around after a rough patch, and offer practical steps like establishing daily rituals, prioritizing quality time together, and learning each other's love languages to rekindle that closeness. Reconnecting at the deepest level will require developing self-awareness and emotional maturity to be truly vulnerable with your partner - this will allow intimacy to blossom once again.Resources Mentioned In This Episode:Passionate Marriage by Dr. David Schnarch - https://a.co/d/4CPF8UkIntimacy & Desire by Dr. David Schnarch - https://a.co/d/4f6r0hI The 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman - https://a.co/d/4Z4rsZI Everything Isn't Terrible by Kathleen Smith - https://a.co/d/9if0o30 MYM Resources:8 Pillars Of An Exceptional Marriage - ​​https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/8-pillarsBecome FREE of resentment ➡️ https://forgive.masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/Connect with Hailey Babcock:Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/haileyhappensfitness?igsh=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==Connect with Robert and Sharla Snow:Website: https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/masteryourmarriage/Facebook - https://facebook.com/masteryourmarriageTikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@masteryourmarriage

When we come to the seemingly inevitable place in our marriage where the spark is just gone, is there a possibility of revitalizing eroticism and passion back into the relationship?ABSOLUTELY. There's a crazy myth out there that eroticism dies over time – like it's something that can't be controlled. But the truth is, you have a choice to rekindle that sexual desire and excitement.The key to reviving eroticism lies in coming alive within yourself and letting go of resentment, anxieties, insecurities, and self-doubt. These things are often overlooked as a source for a lost spark but will often be the root of disconnection in the bedroom.But by prioritizing great sex and being open to creativity and imagination, couples can experience a higher level of satisfaction and a thriving relationship. Tune in to get inspired about your next sexual encounter with your spouse.Resources Mentioned In This Episode:Passionate Marriage by Dr. David Schnarch - https://a.co/d/4CPF8UkOrgasm Study - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28213723/Women Masturbation Study - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2011.628440The Hite Report: A National Study of Female Sexuality - https://a.co/d/4ZlBFOQ MYM Resources:8 Pillars Of An Exceptional Marriage - ​​https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/8-pillarsBecome FREE of resentment ➡️ https://forgive.masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/Connect with Robert and Sharla Snow:Website: https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/masteryourmarriage/Facebook - https://facebook.com/masteryourmarriageTikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@masteryourmarriage

Do you shudder at the touch of your partner? Do you feel on edge and easily triggered lately?You might not even know where it's coming from – it just happens suddenly. And it makes having sex extremely difficult.If this describes you, you're not alone. Most couples will experience a sense of disconnection with their partner at some point(s) in their relationship. Life happens, people change, and negative anchors start taking deep holds in our mood together.In this episode, Sharla and Robert discuss a very simple but profoundly helpful exercise that could help you and your partner break the wall standing between you.Fifteen minutes is all you need.Need extra help reconnecting with your partner? Consider signing up for coaching. https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/apply-for-coaching In this Episode:The benefits of HuggingBenefit 1: Building connection and intimacyBenefit 2: Rewiring triggers (Negative anchors)Benefit 3: Regulating your nervous systemThe 15 minute exercise that rewires our connectionStep 1 - Calm downStep 2 - Stand face to faceStep 3 - Move forwardStep 4 - Get comfortableStep 5 - Quiet yourself downAnd so much more!Resources Mentioned:Hugging until Relaxed Exercise comes from “The Passionate Marriage” book by David Schnarch https://a.co/d/hvYyLuJ Ivan Pavlov's Theory of Conditioned Reflex: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK470326/#:~:text=To%20test%20his%20theory%2C%20Pavlov,sound%20of%20the%20bell%20aloneMYM Resources:8 Pillars Of An Exceptional Marriage - ​​https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/8-pillarsConnect with Robert and Sharla Snow:Website: https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/masteryourmarriage/Facebook - https://facebook.com/masteryourmarriageTikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@masteryourmarriage

We revisit our main framework of everything we talk about on Passionately Married. What are our basic frameworks when addressing life and marriage? How do we approach the idea of growing up in marriage? In the regular version we cover Dr David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance. On the Xtended version … We explore the principles of passion and desire and how they play out in marriage and life. These are natural dynamics found in every marriage. Enjoy the show! Sponsors ... Factor: Get fresh, flavor packed meals ready in 2 minutes for 50% off when you use our code passion50 at https://factormeals.com/passion50. Academy: Join the Academy and go deeper with the conversation and content. https://smr.fm/academy The post Creating A Passionate Marriage #643 first appeared on Sexy Marriage Radio.

We revisit our main framework of everything we talk about on Passionately Married. What are our basic frameworks when addressing life and marriage? How do we approach the idea of growing up in marriage? In the regular version we cover Dr David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance. On the Xtended version … We explore the principles of passion and desire and how they play out in marriage and life. These are natural dynamics found in every marriage. Enjoy the show! Sponsors ... Factor: Get fresh, flavor packed meals ready in 2 minutes for 50% off when you use our code passion50 at https://factormeals.com/passion50. Academy: Join the Academy and go deeper with the conversation and content. https://passionatelymarried.net/academy

In deze aflevering is seksuoloog en psycholoog Ceryl Janssen te gast. Ceryl helpt mensen en hun seksleven in allerlei soorten relaties. Hij haalt zijn inspiratie uit het gedachtengoed van David Schnarch, een Amerikaanse seks en relatie -therapeut. Want waarom wordt seks minder in vaste relaties en wat kun je daar aan doen?Zie het privacybeleid op https://art19.com/privacy en de privacyverklaring van Californië op https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When you get married, it's easy to become consumed in the togetherness of it all. But can too much togetherness be a bad thing? What about too much individuality?If your path to “becoming one” has felt a lot like losing two selves, this episode is for you.Robert and Sharla experienced this early on in their own relationship. Their past experiences shaped their patterns in marriage, and between abandonment issues and subconscious manipulation, they were doing more harm to their relationship than good. They were counting on each other heavily to validate their individual self.But they were losing themselves in the process. And not taking any ownership for it. Putting so much pressure on the perfection of the other to make up the difference.And that's where differentiation comes into play. What is differentiation? The short answer is that it's the ability to balance attachment and autonomy. Becoming responsible for your part in the equation.Tune in to find out why well-differentiated couples don't need to control each other and how it can have a positive impact on intimacy, sex, and conflict resolution. “Most of us marry and subconsciously hope that we are locked into this validation system. Someone to give us all the validation that we ever wanted. To continue propping us up [...] to make us feel worthy, smart, and good about ourselves. Giving us this positive reflected sense of self.” - Robert“But, it's not real. It's a borrowed sense of self. And that makes it fleeting, that makes it fragile.” - SharlaIn this Episode:How your Coping Strategies might be affecting your marriageAre you lacking emotional and psychological maturity?What is differentiation and why does it matter?Developing a Strong Sense of SelfBorrowed Functioning: Are you dependent on external validation?What does it look like to be a well-differentiated individual?Debunking Misconceptions about DifferentiationThe Paradox of ControlBenefits of DifferentiationAnd so much more!Resources Mentioned:Book: Intimacy and Desire by Dr. David Schnarch https://www.amazon.com/Intimacy-Desire-Awaken-Passion-Relationship/dp/0825305675 MYM Resources:8 Pillars Of An Exceptional Marriage - ​​https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/8-pillarsConnect with Robert and Sharla Snow:Website: https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/masteryourmarriage/Facebook - https://facebook.com/masteryourmarriageTikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@masteryourmarriage

For good and bad, our teens know what we are thinking, what makes us happy and sad, what stresses and overwhelmed us, our beliefs and values and much more.  They "track" our body language, facial expressions, all of our non-verbal communication and they create mental "maps" that predict how we will act and react.  These survival skills are what humans do between each of our "lanes" - it is how we predict where we are safe. In episode 163, listen to Heidi discuss mapping and tracking with Dr. Jennifer Finalyson-Fife, an expert in marriage and family relationships.  Hear how this relates to our teens, what they are mapping about us and how we can change the map if we desire. A confident mother is the greatest gift to her family.   Below are links for books and courses mentioned in the episode: The book "Brain Talk" by Dr. David Schnarch:  https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Talk-Mapping-Science-Everyone/dp/154837153X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=J3IMBWGF3O8N&keywords=brain+talk&qid=1692129045&sprefix=brain+talk%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-1 To learn more about Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife:  https://www.finlayson-fife.com/ Room For Two private podcast with Dr. Finlayson-Fife:  https://www.finlayson-fife.com/coaching/room-for-two    

How do you see yourself? How do you see your partner? And how do you think your partner sees you? Decoding our sexual desire is the theme of this week's episode, as Sharla and Robert debunk the Hollywood ideas of what sex 'should' be like in a relationship.Together they get to the heart of what is required to maintain a deep, desire-driven relationship well into the years when cellulite and old age may traditionally start to impact the level of sexual desire for your partner that you would expect to have. Drawing on the work of renowned therapist David Schnarch, they look at the traditional drives of love and desire – Lust, Romantic Love, and Attachment – and then turn the spotlight on the all-important, less-understood 4th drive: your sense of self. The good news is that desire and attraction can get better as we age together in our relationships. Being secure and honest in who we are, appreciating the differences in the other person, and allowing yourself to be fully seen are just some of the ingredients to this as we learn that our own sense of self is perhaps the biggest driver of our sexual desire. Your chance to be fully seen and fully desired awaits. Please join us. "When you believe that sex always works naturally and easily – and then that is not your experience – it's easy to go down the rabbit hole of 'I'm defective' or 'There must be something wrong with me.'" ~ Robert Snow"There is always a ‘higher desire' partner and a ‘lower desire' partner." ~ Sharla Snow In This Episode:- Sharla shares her sexual education (confusion, shame, and trauma)- How desire drops when we think there is something wrong with us- What can go wrong when we satisfy our ‘lower desire' partner- The Three Drives of Love and Desire... and then a Fourth!- Understanding how our sense of self impacts our desire- What does having a 'reflective sense of self' mean? - 'Giving up or growing up': shifting our locus of self-worthAnd so much more!MYM Resources:- 8 Pillars Of An Exceptional Marriage - ​​https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/8-pillars- Link to the MYM 8-Week Coaching Program - https://masteryourmarriagepodcast.com/MYM423- David Schnarch Intimacy and Desire Book - Intimacy & Desire: Awaken the Passion in Your Relationship - https://www.amazon.com/Intimacy-Desire-Awaken-Passion-Relationship/dp/0825306299/-

In this episode, I'm talking with my good friend, Nate Bagley. Nate has been a marriage researcher for over a decade. He talks about the challenges he's been facing in his own marriage and how the training he has recieved and taught over the years has really helped him navigate these challenges. Nate shares his favorite researchers including Dr. David Schnarch and Dr. John Gottman. We have both been trained in Dr. Gottman's 7 Principles of Making Marriage Work and have decided to host a workshop for couples who want to learn how this groundbreaking marriage research can help them develop the skillsets to deepen their intimacy and trust and create a truly meaningful connection. You can get all of the details about our upcoming workshop on March 31st and April 1st in Salt Lake City, Utah by clicking on this link:  https://www.eventbrite.com/e/seven-principles-for-making-marriage-work-tickets-571932554667

This episode was previously recorded for the Healing Sols Podcast and has been refurbished here for your enjoyment. Natasha is joined by Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife on this episode of Healing Sols Podcast. Dr. Finlayson-Fife was trained by the late Dr. David Schnarch so they discuss his methods and trainings, how he took what Murray Bowen taught with his Bowen theory and translated into the field of sexuality, and sex and anxiety. Natasha and Dr. Finlayson-Fife also discuss his 4 points of being well differentiated/balanced. For more on Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, you can visit her website:  https://www.finlayson-fife.com For more from Natasha, please visit: https://www.natashahelfer.com

There are many assumptions and myths about sexuality, especially regarding the differences between men and women. How does the objectification of women impact their sexuality, particularly their interest in sex? And what improves a couple's connection when it comes to sex? In this episode, we will be looking at some of the common dynamics that affect physical intimacy. https://www.amazon.com/Come-You-Are-Surprising-Transform/dp/B08CPVQT5M/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2TI7BA8KS8IQ3&keywords=come+as+you+are+by+emily+nagoski%2C+ph.d&qid=1665442608&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIyLjAyIiwicXNhIjoiMS42NSIsInFzcCI6IjEuNzMifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=come+as+%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-1 (Come as You Are) by Emily Nagoski, Ph.D. https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-Marriage-Intimacy-Committed-Relationships/dp/0393334279/ref=sr_1_1?crid=31VHNMMG11551&keywords=the+passionate+marriage&qid=1665442591&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIxLjAzIiwicXNhIjoiMC4yOSIsInFzcCI6IjAuNDMifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=the+passionate+marriage%2Caps%2C113&sr=8-1 (The Passionate Marriage) by David Schnarch, Ph.D. Isn't Having Sex My Right? Live Webinar Oct 20. https://strongerthanbefore.podia.com/isn-t-having-sex-my-right-why-sexual-coercion-is-abuse/vybt7 (Get your ticket here!) Follow me on https://www.tiktok.com/@kerrymcavoyphd (Tiktok), https://www.instagram.com/kerrymcavoyphd/ (Instagram), https://www.youtube.com/c/KerryMcAvoyPhD (Youtube) and https://www.facebook.com/kerrymcavoyphd (Facebook)! @kerrymcavoyphd Are you looking for community support after narcissistic abuse? Check out Dr. McAvoy's https://app.vibely.io/toxicfreerelationshipclub (Toxic-Free Relationship Club)! Want to read a true story of narcissistic abuse? LOVE YOU MORE: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross Availablehttps://linktr.ee/LOVEYOUMOREbook ( here )at the following online stores. And be sure to sign up for https://resources.kerrymcavoyphd.com/surviving-narcissism (Dr. McAvoy's 50 free Surviving Narcissism tips & exercises)! Consider https://ko-fi.com/kerrymcavoyphd (donating the cost of a cup of coffee) to support this podcast! More at https://resources.kerrymcavoyphd.com/ (resources.kerrymcavoyphd.com)

Two years ago, on October 8, 2020, my teacher, David Schnarch died suddenly.Anyone who knew Dave even for a few moments, could see that he had an arresting presence. Tall and broad-shouldered with high contrast, salt and pepper hair, strong features, and an electric gaze that, when focused on you, elicited the distinct and disarming feeling that he was looking into some dusty and hidden back corner of your soul.I have tried and failed to pay tribute to Dave before, but in this episode, I will attempt it again through my personal recollections of his work, and how his training and methodology impacted me and my practice.Content note: This episode contains somewhat detailed references to sexuality and mention of fertility treatment.Listen to the full episode to hear: How I first encountered Dave's work in the self-help section of a new age store Why I booked a flight to Germany for a training before even reading the book it would be based on The vulnerable, though anonymous, share that made me feel profoundly seen Learn more about Riva Stoudt: Into the Woods Counseling About Riva Instagram Resources: Passionate Marriage: Love, Sex, and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships, David Schnarch Brain Talk: How Mind Mapping Brain Science Can Change Your Life & Everyone In It, David Schnarch

Think about the last time you tried to figure out what someone else was thinking or feeling. Science says you were using a technique that allows our brains to communicate with one another without words. The ladies of The Wisdom Coalition https://www.thewisdomcoalition.com/ explore a book called Brain Talk by Dr. David Schnarch, an award winning clinical psychologist, which is about the brain's ability to make a mental map of another person's mind. Dr. Schnarch writes, “How you think and feel, what you desire, what you refuse to see in yourself (and in others), all this and more dramatically impacts those around you for better and for worse.“ Research shows the typical face has 42 muscles, and what we do with those muscles is unedited and involuntary, and so our faces give away what's in our minds without us even knowing it! Our discussion touches on what happens to someone's brain who has been through trauma and how we can positively influence another person with our own mind mapping abilities.

Think of today's episode as a primer for everything we talk about on SMR. What are our basic frameworks when addressing life and marriage? How do we approach the idea of growing up in marriage? In the regular version we cover Dr David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance. On the Xtended version … We explore the principles of passion and desire and how they play out in marriage and life. These are natural dynamics found in every marriage. Enjoy the show! Sponsors ... Better Help: Online counseling services accessible from anywhere. Save 10% on your first month https://betterhelp.com/smr Medcline: Get 20% off a clinically proven way to get rid of acid reflux and shoulder pain. https://medcline.com/smr The post Principles of Passion and Desire #591 first appeared on Sexy Marriage Radio.

Think of today's episode as a primer for everything we talk about on SMR. What are our basic frameworks when addressing life and marriage? How do we approach the idea of growing up in marriage? In the regular version we cover Dr David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance. On the Xtended version … We explore the principles of passion and desire and how they play out in marriage and life. These are natural dynamics found in every marriage. Enjoy the show! Sponsors ... Better Help: Online counseling services accessible from anywhere. Save 10% on your first month https://betterhelp.com/smr Medcline: Get 20% off a clinically proven way to get rid of acid reflux and shoulder pain. https://medcline.com/smr

Think of today's episode as a primer for everything we talk about on SMR. What are our basic frameworks when addressing life and marriage? How do we approach the idea of growing up in marriage? In the regular version we cover Dr David Schnarch's Four Points of Balance. On the Xtended version … We explore the principles of passion and desire and how they play out in marriage and life. These are natural dynamics found in every marriage. Enjoy the show! Sponsors ... Better Help: Online counseling services accessible from anywhere. Save 10% on your first month https://betterhelp.com/smr Medcline: Get 20% off a clinically proven way to get rid of acid reflux and shoulder pain. https://medcline.com/smr The post Principles of Passion and Desire #591 appeared first on Sexy Marriage Radio.

Kirsten and Alexis are excited to share this episode, a conversation with Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife. During their conversation with Jennifer, the women discuss Jennifer's journey to become a sex therapist—highlighting important life moments along the way. Interwoven within the story are valuable concepts for any woman's life: +The ability to belong in a relationship is deeply connected with our ability to belong to ourselves. +The beauty of growing up in two different types of communities. +How the decisions of everyday interests can lead to something remarkable in our lives. +What partnership can look like with your spouse…and HOW Jennifer and her husband created their last name together. +The lecture she listened to by Dr. David Schnarch, which led to her connecting and learning professionally from him. +The stories we tell ourselves versus the actions we take. The need to self-confront. +The gift of differentiating and the challenge for some adult children to do so with their parents. +A SNEAK PEAK into her UPCOMING BOOK! +How her podcast, Room for Two, has impacted her as a coach. The list is long on subjects covered…and there is even more within the episode. Thank you for joining the conversation today. We hope you enjoy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Want to connect with Alexis and Kirsten outside the podcast? Find them on Instagram: Sharing Her Journey on Instagram Alexis on Instagram Kirsten on Instagram On Facebook: Sharing Her Journey on Facebook Alexis on Facebook Kirsten on Facebook ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is a relationship and sexuality educator and coach, as well as a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Illinois with a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Boston College. She is a frequent contributor about sexuality, relationships, and spirituality to blogs, magazines, and podcasts. You can find her on her own podcast titled, Room for Two. Room for Two on Apple Podcasts Social Media: Jennifer on Instagram Jennifer on Facebook Jennifer's Website

Have you heard the phrase “sex drive”? I'm sure we all have. But in truth, sex isn't a drive, it's a mindset. Why is this important? Because when we think that we need it, or should need it, it becomes a release rather than a way to get closer to our spouse. Listen to this episode to find out what a biological drive actually is, and why it is so important to know that if you don't want sex, you aren't broken. Sex is NOT a Drive Like Hunger, and Here are 2 Reasons This Fact Matters Come as You Are by Dr. Emily Nagoski Passionate Marriage by Dr. David Schnarch

Welche Bücher zum Thema Se✖ solltest du unbedingt gelesen haben? DIESE! In der heutigen Podcastfolge gebe ich euch meine zwei Top-Buchtipps im Bereich Se✖ualität und Partnerschaft. Und zwar: 'Die Psychologie se✖ueller Leidenschaft' von David Schnarch und 'Zeit für Weiblichkeit' von Diana Richardson Für alle, die nicht nur lesen, sondern auch praktisch üben möchten: Mein 'Explore Your Se✖'-12-Wochen-Online-Mentoring startet ab 21. September in die nächste Runde! Ich freue mich über jede Frau, die noch dabei ist und einen der letzten freien Plätze ergattert! ;-) Du findest alle Infos hier: https://kathrinismaier.de/explore-your-sex-live-online/ Du willst noch mehr???

Narcissistic abuse victims' biggest complaint is the confusion. They can't tell if they have partnered with someone who's good or bad. In this episode, we're going to explore what creates the narcissist's dual sense of self. https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-Marriage-Intimacy-Committed-Relationships/dp/0393334279/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1O3J5MYTEWL6Q&keywords=dr+david+schnarch&qid=1657146499&s=books&sprefix=Dr.+David+Sc%2Cstripbooks%2C100&sr=1-6 (Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships by Dr. David Schnarch) https://kerrymcavoyphd.com/elementor-landing-page-5431/ (NarcAvengers' Durham Meet-Up) Are you feeling trapped in a toxic relationship? Then this is the event for you! Come hear Dr. Milstead define cognitive dissonance and why it renders us helpless in this upcoming live event, "Why Can't I Just Leave?" August 18, 6:30 p.m. EST https://resources.kerrymcavoyphd.com/why-can-t-i-just-leave-how-to-break-free-from-a-toxic-relationship (Get your ticket) to the Cognitive Dissonance Live Webinar with Dr. Kristen Milstead! Are you looking for community support after narcissistic abuse? Check out Dr. McAvoy's https://app.vibely.io/toxicfreerelationshipclub (Toxic-Free Relationship Club)! Want to read a true story of narcissistic abuse? LOVE YOU MORE: The Harrowing Tale of Lies, Sex Addiction, & Double Cross Availablehttps://linktr.ee/LOVEYOUMOREbook ( here )at the following online stores. And be sure to sign up for https://resources.kerrymcavoyphd.com/surviving-narcissism (Dr. McAvoy's 50 free Surviving Narcissism tips & exercises)! Consider https://ko-fi.com/kerrymcavoyphd (donating the cost of a cup of coffee) to support this podcast!

This is part 2 of a discussion on the necessity of naming intentional harm. You can't heal until your brain has constructed an accurate and coherent autobiographical narrative of your life. Today I introduce the idea of antisocial empathy, which is a very important concept from David Schnarch's book Brain Talk. I also talk about how to heal when traumatic mind-mapping results in gaps in your memory.

Episode 100In this episode, we discussResilience to feedback, starting from the story podcasting experience Avrum had with a listener over emailHow do we present ourselves saying the things with looking for others to find value or agreement in it (looking for a reflection to define our own sense of self)The problem to limiting narratives and it effect on the realm of therapy (when leaders don't / can't say what they are thinking)The tension of being a public figure rooted in emotion vs thoughtfulBuilding a repertoire of people (authors, leaders, public figures) who have a process with which we trust and agreeThe role of curiosity in overcoming the fear or reliance of public opinionLove us? Or even just a like us? Find more [of Leadership] at...Our website ofleadership.comOn FacebookOn TwitterVia email at ofleadership@gmail.comAnd don't forget to subscribe to our podcast and leave a review!Our friends...Like the tunes? Check out JetlerCheck out Where Would You Like To Start by by Dr. David Freeman and Avrum Nadigel

Naming intentionality matters because if you are unsure about whether or not the other person meant to hurt you, it will be very difficult for you to heal from your wounds. This is because you can't heal until your brain has constructed an accurate and coherent autobiographical narrative of your life: the narrative has to be true and it has to make sense. Drawing from David Schnarch's book Brain Talk, I explain two important concepts: mind-mapping and traumatic mind-mapping. Mind-mapping refers to your ability to map out the thoughts and feelings of another person. Traumatic mind-mapping is a collapse of your brain's normal mind mapping abilities that occurs when you are mind-mapping someone and what you see is terrible.

The concept of validation is not a complicated one, but it is a huge part of how we show up in our lives and how we can understand how to better feel the love that we want for ourselves.   The way we seek validation will also help us understand how pornography has been playing a part in our self soothing process.  I am going to lean on Dr. David Schnarch's book “Passionate Marriage” for the definitions of these two concepts and then we are going to talk about what they mean in the context of pornography and marriage.  Other-validated intimacy involves the expectation of acceptance, empathy, validation, or reciprocal disclosure from our partner.   Self validated intimacy relies on a person maintaining their own sense of identity and self-worth when disclosing, with no expectation of acceptance or reciprocity from their partner.  our capacity for self-validated intimacy is directly related to our level of our ability to maintain a clear sense of ourselves when our loved ones are pressuring us to conform to their views, wants, or expressed desires.  It is the tangible product of our relationship with ourself.   So, let's talk about other-validated intimacy and how that might be keeping you from being successful in eliminating a pornography habit.  When we expect our partner to give back to us as much or more than we are giving them, we are engaging in what Dr. David Glover calls in his book, “No more Mr. Nice Guy” a covert contract.  This is our way of trying to get our partner to tell us that we are enough for them.  I used to do this all the time with foot rubs and back rubs for Darcy.  When I wanted her to reciprocate with sex or love I would do things for her to make it so she was supposed to give back to me.  I also did this with things like house work.  I would do everything so I could take off her plate any excuses she might have for saying no to me later.   I did this so she would validate me with sex.   This covert contract was about expecting something from her that she was not offering freely because she wanted to give it.  D – and when he would do this I would …. Tell your feelings about this here.  D – Give an example of how you would seek validation from me.  –  we never talk – this was a regular refrain, even when we had spent all day together the previous day.  I was seeking for Zach to tell me I was enough, accepted.  What we are doing when we seek other-validated intimacy is asking our partner to manage our sense of whether or not we are OK.   One of the reasons, that I believe men and women turn to pornography is that there is nothing we can't ask for that won't be given in that space.  It is almost a total free for all.  It is self-gratifying and other-validating, even when those others are not present physically, mentally, or even willingly.   This is just an idea that occurs to me, but it makes sense, at least from one position.  Pornography validates us regardless of how we feel and regardless of whether we are acting with integrity.  When we deal with real people, in real time, over real issues, we are constantly at risk of being rejected.   This is one of the central things that I believe makes pornography so appealing on a different level than just aroused by it.  Pornography never rejects us.  It never says that what we want is not available.  It never says, “I'm not comfortable doing that” or “I'm tired, can we just snuggle” or “I'm upset with the way you treated me” This is a counterfeit other-validation that is available at the tips of our fingers at all hours of the day and night.   Whereas, to be self-validated and to have self-validated intimacy,...

Disclaimer: Natasha originally recorded this podcast for her Healing Sols podcast. Natasha is joined by Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, who was trained by the late Dr. David Schnarch. They discuss Dr. Schnarch's methods and trainings, focusing on what he took from Murray Bowen, and the Bowen theory and translated into the field of sexuality, and sex and anxiety. Natasha and Dr. Finlayson-Fife also discuss the 4 points of being well differentiated/balanced.

Whenever people ask me how I built a business with my husband, they usually add, with an eye roll, “because I could never do that with my partner.” And I always kind of laugh and say, “Lots of therapy.”Which is the truth in many ways. Though it's not just therapy, it's both of us actively working on having a healthy, loving, energizing, communicative, successful relationship.And I believe that having fulfilling relationships in your life really do lead to more business success. And that's true even if you aren't running a business with your partner.Which is why today, we're veering away from our usual topics and talking about relationships with Nate Bagley. Nate is on a mission in life is to rid the world of mediocre love. He is a marriage researcher and educator and host of the Growth Marriage Podcast as well as a kickass Growth Marriage YouTube channel.And I am just so excited to share this conversation with you, where we are going to talk about how your relationship plays a role in the success of your business. Tune into this episode to hear:How Nate turned a string of disappointing relationships into a cross-country road trip research project on happy marriagesWhy having a fulfilling romantic relationship is important to running a successful businessTwo key principles for relationship successWhat to do when your partner doesn't want to put in the work on your relationshipThe connections between anxiety, control and burnout and how it impacts your relationships and your businessLearn more about Nate: Growth MarriageInstagram: @GrowthMarriageGrowth Marriage on YouTubeGrowth Marriage PodcastEpic Marriage ClubLearn more about Pia: No BS Agency Owners Free Facebook GroupThe Show Your Business Who's Boss Crash Course Start reading the first chapter of my bookPiasilva.comResources:Everything Isn't Terrible: Conquer Your Insecurities, Interrupt Your Anxiety, and Finally Calm Down, Kathleen SmithThe Gottman InstituteDr. David Schnarch

Do you ever find yourself feeling like you are not doing enough? Not enough for yourself… Not enough for your marriage… Not enough for your child(ren)... Or maybe, even that your partner is not doing enough… SOOOO, it is not just us, right? On this episode, Dr. Gertrude Lyons, Master Life Coach, Speaker, Mothering Revolutionary, and Mother of two daughters, joins us to dive deeper into navigating those challenging thoughts and feelings. She shares with us how we can invite our partners to have hard conversations regularly without shutting down. She also shares with us how we can tend to high stress moments (aka what we all like to call Mommy Rage). This episode has so many great tools and practices that help us communicate and connect better as individuals and as a family. Be sure to tune in.  P.S. Check out Dr. Lyons's mot(HER) Podcast. mot(HER) Podcast is another wonderful safe space where women share their truths to help support and empower other women. Check it out and listen to amazing the guests featured. We even make our first-ever guest appearance there! How to connect with Dr. Gertrude Lyons: Website: https://www.drgertrudelyons.com/about Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drgertrudelyons/ Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mot-her/id1534581166 Mentioned book by Dr. Lyons: Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch, PhD

Many of us learn at a young age (especially boys) that vulnerability=weakness.We therefore try to hide it and don't show it to our partners.This results in shallow, self-presentational relationships with little vitality, excitement, play or curiosity. Moreover, when you're not vulnerable, then you're less interesting to your partner and over time you become more numb to your own inner workings.The solution? practice the ability of vulnerability. The more you'll show, the more free you'll feel.But how can I be more vulnerable (especially if I'm not used to it)?In this talk, we unpack the issue of vulnerability in intimate relationships, using examples from our marriage and the clinic.Practical tips will help you dare to be more vulnerable in a safe and gradual way.Click here to join our mailing list and get free resources on enriching relationships every month to your inbox.Check out more of our content:Blog on Psychology TodayYouTube channelFacebook pagePodcast show linkTwitterSupport the show (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=Q5AG6K7L8GYKA&source=url)

Do you have a sense your partner is sticking it to you but they keep denying it?Do you or your partner deny certain bad behaviors to each other?We all sometimes semi-consciously act in small negative ways to our partners -  David Schnarch calls this phenomenon "Normal Marital Sadism".  After all, the opposite of love is apathy (not hatred). So we all do it.But when one partner continuously denies aggressive, belittling, or mean relational behavior, in a way that makes their partner doubt themselves and their perception -  that is called Gaslighting.Gaslighting is real and happens in all relationships in one form or another.In this talk, we unpack the phenomenon of Gaslighting and it's tax on relationships, through examples from the clinic and our marriage. Practical tips will help you stop (or at least minimize) Gaslighting in your relationship today.Click here to join our mailing list and get free resources on enriching relationships every month to your inbox.https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-other-side-relationshipshttp://podcast.potentialstate.com/https://www.youtube.com/c/ThePotentialStatehttps://www.facebook.com/ThePotentialStatehttps://twitter.com/assaelSupport the show (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=Q5AG6K7L8GYKA&source=url)

Themenmonat: Sexualität In dieser Folge spricht Mia mit Susann Surber. Sie ist Sexualtherapeutin und Coach für Frauen und Paare, die ihre Sexualität genießen wollen. Wir sprechen offen über verschiedene intime Dinge, die oft tabuisiert werden, wie zum Beispiel Solosex. Susann teilt ihre Erfahrungen und Tipps für eine bewusstere Sexualität. Lass uns gerne bei iTunes eine Rezension da, 5 Sterne und sag uns wie dir die Folge gefallen hat, das bedeutet uns sehr viel. Lass uns Bildung gemeinsam anders denken - hin zu mehr Achtsamkeit und Wertschätzung! Wir danken dir, dass du dabei warst und freuen uns wenn du das nächste Mal wieder dabei bist! Bis dann! Links zur Folge: Hier findest du Susanns tollen Yotube-Kanal: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwhA0IaaPBG-Aymk2kph2WQ Susanns Homepage: https://bewusstesliebesleben.de/susann-surber/ YouTube-Kanal des Dalai Lama: https://www.youtube.com/user/gyalwarinpoche Gratis Minikurs für Paare: : https://bewusstesliebesleben.de/minikurs-paare/ Gratis Solosex-Meditation für Frauen: https://bewusstesliebesleben.de/solosex-meditation/ Buchempfehlungen: Emily Nagoski „Komm wie du willst“: https://www.buch7.de/produkt/komm-wie-du-willst-emily-nagoski/1028637300?ean=9783426786901 Marty Klein „Sexual intelligence“ https://www.buch7.de/produkt/sexual-intelligence-marty-klein/1020564618?ean=9780062026071 David Schnarch „die Psychologie sexueller Leidenschaft" https://www.buch7.de/produkt/die-psychologie-sexueller-leidenschaft-david-schnarch/1026683320?ean=9783608961096 Homepage von Bildung mal anders: www.bildungmalanders.de Bildung mal anders auf Telegram, Signal und WhatsApp: 015750310790 Instagram von Bildung mal anders: https://instagram.com/bildung.mal.anders?igshid=19zgtpyewhr3n Facebook von Bildung mal anders: https://www.facebook.com/bildung.mal.anders ; Intro/Outro: ‚Follow your Dreams‘ by scottholmesmusic.com. Cover Foto: Farina Deutschmann

Edy Nathan is the foremost expert In grief, trauma, and sexuality. She's a keynote speaker at healthcare & corporate workshops, and author of the book It's Grief: The Dance of Self-Discovery Through Trauma and Loss In this episode we discussed: What Edy learnt from David Schnarch, and Brain TalkACISTE (American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences) How we can use our 2 allies: the brain and breath, to conquer anxiety "The breath can be the most centering part of our lives than you can even imagine." - Edy Nathan Connect with guest Edy Nathan: Website | Twitter | LinkedIn Connect with host Edward Tay

Tune in to hear Braxton and Cami review Secrets of a Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. You'll find invaluable communication strategies, self-soothing strategies, and conflict resolution strategies in this episode. Tune in next month for a review of Tell Me What You Want: The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life by Justin Lehmiller

More information can be found at www.socialchangeleaders.net “The only way forward is through, together” - Nichelle Smith It is February 2021 which in the United States is also Black history month. With humility and respect we do recognize Black history is actually American history. This month serves as a reminder of that history and the contributions Black Americans have made; many of these contributions under challenging and impossible circumstances, and many of them unacknowledged and unappreciated at the time and still today. This is not something we only must do during the month of February, but every month. This week, we wanted to do an encore of a previously released podcast focused on the work of Resmaa Menakem, a healer, author, trauma specialist and podcaster. In this episode Resmaa shares his thoughts and insights about racialization as pedagogy and white body supremacy. In our conversation, we dive into: Key concepts about the impacts of racism on black and brown bodies The concept of white body supremacy as the standard by which all bodies of humanity are measured and why white people must get comfortable with that term How black and brown bodies can be harmed when white people seek validation and comfort from people of color The recent work Resmaa has done with author and speaker Robin DiAngelo about identifying and combating White Fragility How current policies and procedures allow white body supremacy to multiply Why Resmaa believes white people must engage in a longer-term, embodied process of work and self study to transform as individuals to better address the dismantling of white body supremacy Why white people must learn to create their own culture to better hold space for discomfort when discussing race Resmaa's creative ideas about how to leverage technology and other innovative fields to support anti-racism work In this episode: Resmaa Menakem Robin DiAngelo Resmaa Book, My Grandmother's Hands, Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies “Black History Month 2021: The Only Way Forward Is Through, Together” by Nichelle Smith More about Resmaa Manakem: Resmaa Menakem, MSW, LICSW, SEP, has appeared on both The Oprah Winfrey Show and Dr. Phil as an expert on conflict and violence. He has served as director of counseling services for the Tubman Family Alliance; as behavioral health director for African American Family Services in Minneapolis; as a domestic violence counselor for Wilder Foundation; as a certified Military and Family Life Consultant for the U.S. Armed Forces; as a trauma consultant for the Minneapolis Public Schools; and as a Cultural Somatics consultant for the Minneapolis Police Department. As a Community Care Counselor, he managed the wellness and counseling services for civilians on fifty-three US military bases in Afghanistan. Resmaa studied and trained at Peter Levine's Somatic Experiencing Trauma Institute, as well as with Dr. David Schnarch (author of the bestselling Passionate Marriage) and Bessel van der Kolk, MD (author of the bestselling The Body Keeps the Score). He currently teaches workshops on Cultural Somatics for audiences of African Americans, European Americans, and police officers. He is also a therapist in private practice.

More information can be found at www.socialchangeleaders.net  “The only way forward is through, together”  - Nichelle Smith It is February 2021 which in the United States is also Black history month.   With humility and respect we do recognize Black history is actually American history.  This month serves as a reminder of that history and the contributions Black Americans have made; many of these contributions under challenging and impossible circumstances, and many of them unacknowledged and unappreciated at the time and still today. This is not something we only must do during the month of February, but every month.  This week, we wanted to do an encore of a previously released podcast focused on the work of Resmaa Menakem, a healer, author, trauma specialist and podcaster.  In this episode Resmaa shares his thoughts and insights about racialization as pedagogy and white body supremacy.  In our conversation, we dive into: Key concepts about the impacts of racism on black and brown bodies The concept of white body supremacy as the standard by which all bodies of humanity are measured and why white people must get comfortable with that term How black and brown bodies can be harmed when white people seek validation and comfort from people of color The recent work Resmaa has done with author and speaker Robin DiAngelo about identifying and combating White Fragility       How current policies and procedures allow white body supremacy to multiply  Why Resmaa believes white people must engage in a longer-term, embodied process of work and self study to transform as individuals to better address the dismantling of white body supremacy  Why white people must learn to create their own culture to better hold space for discomfort when discussing race Resmaa’s creative ideas about how to leverage technology and other innovative fields to support anti-racism work In this episode: Resmaa Menakem Robin DiAngelo Resmaa Book, My Grandmother's Hands, Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies “Black History Month 2021: The Only Way Forward Is Through, Together” by Nichelle Smith More about Resmaa Manakem: Resmaa Menakem, MSW, LICSW, SEP, has appeared on both The Oprah Winfrey Show and Dr. Phil as an expert on conflict and violence. He has served as director of counseling services for the Tubman Family Alliance; as behavioral health director for African American Family Services in Minneapolis; as a domestic violence counselor for Wilder Foundation; as a certified Military and Family Life Consultant for the U.S. Armed Forces; as a trauma consultant for the Minneapolis Public Schools; and as a Cultural Somatics consultant for the Minneapolis Police Department. As a Community Care Counselor, he managed the wellness and counseling services for civilians on fifty-three US military bases in Afghanistan. Resmaa studied and trained at Peter Levine’s Somatic Experiencing Trauma Institute, as well as with Dr. David Schnarch (author of the bestselling Passionate Marriage) and Bessel van der Kolk, MD (author of the bestselling The Body Keeps the Score). He currently teaches workshops on Cultural Somatics for audiences of African Americans, European Americans, and police officers. He is also a therapist in private practice.

We are always manipulating the people around us.We want something FROM them…Or FOR them.We want to “move” them into certain positions.Emotional dependence on us or emotional resilience.Sexual obligation or sexual choice.Religious obligation or religious choice.This week I got an in-depth view of how I manipulate my wife, kids and friends… and I didn’t like what I saw.I took the time to INTENTIONALLY decide how I was going to try to move (manipulate) the people around me.And the results are already SO much better.Watch on YouTube here.Summary:-An outside perspective is INVALUABLE to finding your negative patterns-Find your “old moves” and intentionally choose “new moves” for the important people in your life-Use mapping as a way to more deeply understand and connect with the important people in your life-The book Brain Talk by David Schnarch can help you through this process. You can get it on Amazon here.MikeP.S. If you are ready to create an incredibly intimate marriage… whether your wife is wanting to work on the marriage or not… come join us in The Strong Man System. You’ll have the best relationship you have EVER had with your wife… in 90 days or less… or you’ll get your investment back. Make today one of the best days of your life. CLICK HERE to join.

Was ist eigentlich der richtige Weg – Beziehungen als Crashkurs und reflektieren – oder – Crashkurs in Reflexion und dann Beziehung? Wie kann ich wissen, was ich will – sexuell, in Beziehungen und Leben – wenn ich noch gar nicht wissen kann, was das alles heißt? Und später dann: was kann ich für mich tun, damit ich meine Bedürfnisse nicht an meinen Partner auslagere? Wie schafft man Innigkeit und Verbindung bei gleichzeitiger Autonomie und Unabhängigkeit? Darüber spreche ich heute mit Sarah, die Insights und Übungen aus dem Buch "Die Psychologie sexueller Leidenschaft" von David Schnarch dabei hat. Komm auf die Rein&Raus Website und in den Newsletter: www.reinundraus.com Besuche einen Workshop in 2021: www.reinundraus.com/sex-workshops Supporte Rein&Raus mit einer kleinen Spende: www.patreon.com/reinundraus

Dr. Finlayson-Fife joins colleague Natasha Helfer to discuss Dr. Schnarch's teachings and legacy. They take up -Differentiation theory and Dr. David Schnarch's impact in the field of therapy. -Differentiation and how it's related to strong relationships and a solid sense of self. -How to better manage anxiety within your relationship and family. -Common relational and sexual challenges facing those who have grown up in a religiously conservative culture

Dr. Finlayson-Fife joins colleague Natasha Helfer to discuss Dr. Schnarch's teachings and legacy. They take up -Differentiation theory and Dr. David Schnarch's impact in the field of therapy. -Differentiation and how it's related to strong relationships and a solid sense of self. -How to better manage anxiety within your relationship and family. -Common relational and sexual challenges facing those who have grown up in a religiously conservative culture

In honor of David Schnarch, professional colleague Dr. Dave Jenkins, interviews Dr. Finlayson-Fife about -How she came to find Dr. Schnarch's work -Personal growth that has come from her experience as a therapist and coach. -The value of seeking for truth even when it's disorienting. -How her practice has been influenced by Dr. David Schnarch's life and work. -The importance of differentiation in human development and creating peace within oneself and healthy relationships

In honor of David Schnarch, professional colleague Dr. Dave Jenkins, interviews Dr. Finlayson-Fife about -How she came to find Dr. Schnarch's work -Personal growth that has come from her experience as a therapist and coach. -The value of seeking for truth even when it's disorienting. -How her practice has been influenced by Dr. David Schnarch's life and work. -The importance of differentiation in human development and creating peace within oneself and healthy relationships

Natasha is joined by Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife on this episode of Healing Sols Podcast. Dr. Finlayson-Fife was trained by the late Dr. David Schnarch so they discuss his methods and trainings, how he took what Murray Bowen taught with his Bowen theory and translated into the field of sexuality, and sex and anxiety. Natasha and Dr. Finlayson-Fife also discuss his 4 points of being well differentiated/balanced. For more on Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, you can visit her website:  https://www.finlayson-fife.com For more from Natasha, please visit: https://www.natashahelfer.com

In dieser Folge ist Katharina mit Sandra Teml-Jetter im Gespräch. Sie lebt privat schon immer in einer Patchwork-Konstellation und ist Einzel- und Paarcoach und Familienberaterin nach Jesper Juul und hat bei David Schnarch mehrere Workshops und Webinare besucht.Mit Jeannine Mik hat Sandra das Buch „Mama, nicht schreien!" geschrieben. Die beiden sprechen unter anderem über #StopMomshaming, Mutterschaft, Familiensysteme und Kindheit heute und früher.MindShift Webseite:www.mindshift.familyUnterstützung für dich!Wöchentliche Live Coaching-Webinare mit Katharina und anderen Top-Experten.Jetzt bis 31.12.2020 Frühbucherticket sichern!

One of the most difficult tasks in relationships is to maintain our sense of self...to not loose our self in relationship. This can be even more challenging during times of conflict, stress and uncertainty. And especially true when our partner is pressuring us to be something different or when we fear their reaction and ultimately a loss of approval and love.  (Please listen to the podcast episode or read the transcript to hear explanations, stories, and examples.)   In this episode, Dr. Jessica Higgins discusses:  How important it is to work on becoming differentiated in relationship. The fallout of not maintaining a solid sense of self.  What it looks like when couples get stuck in emotional fusion and gridlock.  Dr. David Schnarch's Four Points Of Balance: Solid Flexible Self, Quiet Mind - Calm Heart, Grounded Responding, and Meaningful Endurance.  How differentiation relates to our passion, sexual desire and sexual intimacy.    "A solid sense of self develops from confronting yourself, challenging yourself to do what's right, and earning your own self-respect. It develops from inside you rather than from internalizing what's around you." by Dr. David Schnarch   Mentioned:  Shifting Criticism into Connected Communication – Free Guide Crucible Institute Dr. David Schnarch (website) Intimacy & Desire, by Dr. David Schnarch (book) Resurrecting Sex, by Dr. David Schnarch (book) Passionate Marriage, by Dr. David Schnarch (book) ERP 110: HOW TO MANAGE TWO MAJORLY CONFLICTING NEEDS IN RELATIONSHIP (podcast) ERP 234: How To Deal With Fears Of Intimacy – Part two (podcast) ERP 233: How To Deal With Fears Of Intimacy – Part One (podcast) ERP 223: How To Deal With Difficult Emotions – Part One (podcast) ERP 224: How To Deal With Difficult Emotions – Part Two (podcast) Dr. Susan Johnson's website Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins:   Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship  Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins  Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts  Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation  LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins  Twitter: @DrJessHiggins  Website: drjessicahiggins.com   Email: jessica@drjessicahiggins.com     If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here.  Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship.  Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here.  Thank you!   If you are interested in developing new skills to overcome relationship challenges, please consider taking the Connected Couple Program or engaging in relationship coaching work with me. 

On the Regular version of today's show ... Jessa Zimmerman joins me today to let the SMRNation know about our free webinar - How To Help Your Partner Want More Sex WITHOUT Feeling Pressure or Obligation  - on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 7 PM Central Time. Register for free by clicking here. Jessa also sticks around to answer some questions from the Nation. On the Xtended version (which is available to all today) ... Pam and I talk about the impact Dr David Schnarch has had our our marriage and my profession. Enjoy the show! The post Intimacy With Ease #489 first appeared on Sexy Marriage Radio.

On the Regular version of today's show ... Jessa Zimmerman joins me today to let the SMRNation know about our free webinar - How To Help Your Partner Want More Sex WITHOUT Feeling Pressure or Obligation  - on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 7 PM Central Time. Register for free by clicking here. Jessa also sticks around to answer some questions from the Nation. On the Xtended version (which is available to all today) ... Pam and I talk about the impact Dr David Schnarch has had our our marriage and my profession. Enjoy the show!

On the Regular version of today's show ... Jessa Zimmerman joins me today to let the SMRNation know about our free webinar - How To Help Your Partner Want More Sex WITHOUT Feeling Pressure or Obligation  - on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 7 PM Central Time. Register for free by clicking here. Jessa also sticks around to answer some questions from the Nation. On the Xtended version (which is available to all today) ... Pam and I talk about the impact Dr David Schnarch has had our our marriage and my profession. Enjoy the show! The post Intimacy With Ease #489 appeared first on Sexy Marriage Radio.

Dr. Diana’s return guest, Dr. Ashley Mader, is well versed in differentiation. It is no surprise that differentiation issues are played out in the sexual area. What is differentiation? It involves learning to balance your individuality (separateness) with your emotional connection to someone else (togetherness). Standing on your own two feet—rather than trying to merge with your partner or lose yourself in love—may lead to the best sex you’ve ever had!   Dr. Diana and Dr. Ashley are both experts in aging and sexuality. They spoke about Gail Sheehy’s idea—in her book Passages—that sometime around age 50, the man becomes more romantic and the woman becomes more assertive. We must not mistake genital prime for sexual prime! Dr. David Schnarch’s Passionate Marriage focuses on how you don’t work on your marriage; your marriage works on you. Marriage or being in a committed relationship is the ideal arena in which to become clearer about who you are so that you can contribute to and enjoy a better partnership.   In addition to conducting her private practice in Amherst, MA, Dr. Ashely is in her third year of graduate school at the Bowen Center at Georgetown University. Dr. Bowen’s philosophy is that we may have unresolved emotional attachment issues with our family of origin. We may have to toggle between our emotional and intellectual selves. Back to Schnarch because this is important: You give up the fantasy that the other person is going to complete you. So your goal changes from getting someone to love you to being someone capable of loving. Dr. Diana’s book Love in the Time of Corona: Advice from a Sex Therapist for Couples in Quarantine is especially timely, and can help with this process.

Sleep and sex – how does a couple balance out these two needs and desires?  How many times have I heard a couple argue about whether or not they’re having enough sex. One will usually say I’m too exhausted. The other feels rejected. Both feel unappreciated and hurt.  I'll offer a couple of tips from experts and couples themselves about how they balance two different libidos and two different sleep styles while managing to reach a compromise. And by the way, there was a study done several years ago that tested different factors (including level of salary)  to see which ones might lead to greater life satisfaction and sense of happiness. The two that were most powerful? Sexual satisfaction (being content in your sex life) and sleep – getting enough of it. That’s an eye opener for sure. The listener email today is from someone who wants to know how to talk with her spouse about abuse she suffered as a child. I’ll give her my answer! Important Links: Dr. Pat Love's Hot Monogamy One of Dr. David Schnarch's first books on sexual intimacy and couples. You can hear more about this and many other topics by listening to my podcast, SelfWork with Dr. Margaret Rutherford. Subscribe to my website and receive one weekly newsletter including my weekly blog post and podcast! If you’d like to join my FaceBook closed group, then click here and answer the membership questions! Welcome! My new book entitled Perfectly Hidden Depression has arrived and you can order here! Its message is specifically for those with a struggle with strong perfectionism which acts to mask underlying emotional pain. But the many self-help techniques described can be used by everyone who chooses to begin to address emotions long hidden away that are clouding and sabotaging your current life. And there’s a new way to send me a message! You can record by clicking below and ask your question or make a comment. You’ll have 90 seconds to do so and that time goes quickly. By recording, you’re giving SelfWork (and me) permission to use your voice on the podcast. I’ll look forward to hearing from you!            

“One sick elephant doesn't stop a circus; so figure it out.” More information can be found at www.socialchangeleaders.net On today's episode we speak with Resmaa Menakem, a healer, author, trauma specialist and podcaster. Resmaa shares his thoughts and insights about racialization as pedagogy and white body supremacy. In our conversation, we dive into: Key concepts about the impacts of racism on black and brown bodies The concept of white body supremacy as the standard by which all bodies of humanity are measured and why white people must get comfortable with that term How black and brown bodies can be harmed when white people seek validation and comfort from people of color The recent work Resmaa has done with author and speaker Robin DiAngelo about identifying and combating White Fragility How current policies and procedures allow white body supremacy to multiply Why Resmaa believes white people must engage in a longer-term, embodied process of work and self study to transform as individuals to better address the dismantling of white body supremacy Why white people must learn to create their own culture to better hold space for discomfort when discussing race Resmaa's creative ideas about how to leverage technology and other innovative fields to support anti-racism work In this episode: Resmaa Website: here Robin DiAngelo Website: here Resmaa Book, My Grandmother's Hands, Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies: here More about Resmaa Resmaa Menakem, MSW, LICSW, SEP, has appeared on both The Oprah Winfrey Show and Dr. Phil as an expert on conflict and violence. He has served as director of counseling services for the Tubman Family Alliance; as behavioral health director for African American Family Services in Minneapolis; as a domestic violence counselor for Wilder Foundation; as a certified Military and Family Life Consultant for the U.S. Armed Forces; as a trauma consultant for the Minneapolis Public Schools; and as a Cultural Somatics consultant for the Minneapolis Police Department. As a Community Care Counselor, he managed the wellness and counseling services for civilians on fifty-three US military bases in Afghanistan. Resmaa studied and trained at Peter Levine's Somatic Experiencing Trauma Institute, as well as with Dr. David Schnarch (author of the bestselling Passionate Marriage) and Bessel van der Kolk, MD (author of the bestselling The Body Keeps the Score). He currently teaches workshops on Cultural Somatics for audiences of African Americans, European Americans, and police officers. He is also a therapist in private practice.

“One sick elephant doesn’t stop a circus; so figure it out.”  More information can be found at www.socialchangeleaders.net  On today’s episode we speak with Resmaa Menakem, a healer, author, trauma specialist and podcaster.  Resmaa shares his thoughts and insights about racialization as pedagogy and white body supremacy.  In our conversation, we dive into: Key concepts about the impacts of racism on black and brown bodies The concept of white body supremacy as the standard by which all bodies of humanity are measured and why white people must get comfortable with that term How black and brown bodies can be harmed when white people seek validation and comfort from people of color The recent work Resmaa has done with author and speaker Robin DiAngelo about identifying and combating White Fragility       How current policies and procedures allow white body supremacy to multiply  Why Resmaa believes white people must engage in a longer-term, embodied process of work and self study to transform as individuals to better address the dismantling of white body supremacy  Why white people must learn to create their own culture to better hold space for discomfort when discussing race Resmaa’s creative ideas about how to leverage technology and other innovative fields to support anti-racism work In this episode: Resmaa Website:  here Robin DiAngelo Website:  here  Resmaa Book, My Grandmother's Hands, Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies: here More about Resmaa Resmaa Menakem, MSW, LICSW, SEP, has appeared on both The Oprah Winfrey Show and Dr. Phil as an expert on conflict and violence. He has served as director of counseling services for the Tubman Family Alliance; as behavioral health director for African American Family Services in Minneapolis; as a domestic violence counselor for Wilder Foundation; as a certified Military and Family Life Consultant for the U.S. Armed Forces; as a trauma consultant for the Minneapolis Public Schools; and as a Cultural Somatics consultant for the Minneapolis Police Department. As a Community Care Counselor, he managed the wellness and counseling services for civilians on fifty-three US military bases in Afghanistan. Resmaa studied and trained at Peter Levine’s Somatic Experiencing Trauma Institute, as well as with Dr. David Schnarch (author of the bestselling Passionate Marriage) and Bessel van der Kolk, MD (author of the bestselling The Body Keeps the Score). He currently teaches workshops on Cultural Somatics for audiences of African Americans, European Americans, and police officers. He is also a therapist in private practice.

We’ve all uttered those words, “Hey, I’m just asking for a friend, but …” It’s the universal pre-requisite for a question too embarrassing, too cringe-worthy to ask. And this week, we’re asking some of the most uncomfortable questions of all. We’re talking all about sex. This week’s guest, Christian marriage and sex therapist, Angie Landry, straight up tell us: “PEOPLE DON’T KNOW HOW TO TALK ABOUT SEX.” While none of us particularly hold dear the day we got the birds and bees talk, this discomfort with talking about sex far exceeds just our 5th grade sex-ed class. Why do we feel so exposed, out of place, even ashamed to discuss this physical form of love and engagement, especially those of us raised in traditional faith communities. As both a sex therapist and a Christian, Angie explains that her “ultimate goal is to meet people where they are and help them get to a place where they feel good about themselves.” And like most things, this starts with clearer and more honest communication. But as believers, how do we keep sex sacred and boundaried as the Bible calls us to without vilifying it and creating greater stigma and discomfort around the subject? First and foremost, we must chuck the language of “should” and “normal.” With the #1 issue Angie treats in couples being what she calls “desire discrepancy,” how can we all learn to shut down this harmful language and embrace individual expectations for sex and intimacy, rather than accepting what culture suggests sex should look like? Above all else we have to embrace two things that Angie teaches about female sexuality: 1)    WOMEN’S SEXUAL DRIVE IS COMPLEX AND OFTEN MORE EMOTIONALLY CENTERED THAN PHYSICALLY CENTERED 2)    OUR BIGGEST SEX ORGAN IS OUR BRAIN What?? Yes! So the issues we think we have with low libido or lack of interest are often times less about our bodies and more about our minds.  “How a woman thinks about sex is going to determine how she participates in it.” As much as we may want to engage sexually with our husband, we must first engage with our minds. Worries like do I feel good about my body? Am I well-rested? Has he been sweet to me today? often prove the invisible roadblock for women who feel their desire “is lower than it should be.” The two keys to breaking through these and other roadblocks, Angie says, are communication and timing. Often where we’re not lining up sexually isn’t so much difference in desire or drive but simply in timing. The bottom line, and starting line, is, how do you and your spouse talk about sex? While it may feel awkward starting out, it is without doubt the first step toward better and more regular sex. And Angie assures us, “Own the awkward; it’s worth it!” Check out the full episode for at home tips and tricks for you to try before approaching a counselor, as well as some questions answered on sexual trauma, psychology of infertility and loss, and how to address sex in the wake of infidelity or widowhood. We asked it all for you in this episode, friends!   Find Angie: www.restorationcounselingtn.com More Resources: Come As You Are, Emily Nagoski Sex Made Simple, Barry McCarthy Passionate Marriage, David Schnarch

Do you feel frustrated with your partner when they don’t follow the bedtime routine that you have worked so hard to develop for your child (https://3in30podcast.com/captivate-podcast/power-of-moms/) ? Or is your spouse’s tendency to coddle or spoil the kids really driving you crazy? Or maybe it’s the opposite--their tendency to scold or punish the kids differently than you would prefer. If so, you’re not alone.  This episode with Celeste Davis is going to free you from carrying the burden of that dynamic in your home--and I think it’s going to make everyone in your family much happier and more peaceful. Celeste Davis, a marriage researcher and sociologist who shares her insights into successful relationships on her blog, Marriage Laboratory, and the podcast, Marriage Theraoke tells us WHY to do this and HOW!  Three Takeaways from Celeste Davis Your PARTNER is not your enemy (but disconnection with your partner is!)  DIFFERENCE is not your enemy (but anxiety over differences is!)  IMPERFECTION is not your enemy (but intolerance of imperfection is!)  Quotes from this episode:"Researcher Ellen Galinsky asked over a thousand kids ages 8 to 18, if they could change just one thing about their parents, what it would be? And they also asked the parents what they thought, and all of the parents, full of guilt, said, “Oh they probably want to spend more time with me...” And no. The kids said their wish would be for their parents to be less stressed. And when you think about what’s stressing us out–our parenting is stressing us out. We’re so stressed by doing the discipline right, and the homework, and the sports, and everything by the book…it’s stressing us out and that’s what’s causing the disconnect." "It’s a really beautiful thing to show your kids that there’s more than one way to solve a problem. There’s more than one way to do a lot of different things...And it’s also a really beautiful way to demonstrate how to treat someone who has different ideas than us, right? We demonstrate to our kids that when someone has a different idea than us, we don’t shut them down; we don’t disrespect them; we don’t pressure them; we don’t silent treatment them. We listen, and we treat them with respect, and we honor their agency, and we can work things out, and we can state our desires, and we can state our frustrations, but we still listen." "My favorite marriage quote that is from Dr. David Schnarch: 'The most loving thing we can do for our spouse is to learn to regulate our own anxiety.' When we are unable to regulate our anxiety, it’s going to spew inadvertently all over our spouse, and we’re going to expect them to validate us, and it’s just going to come out in a lot of unloving ways. And the most loving thing we can do for our kids is to learn to regulate our anxiety about our kids. "The most loving thing I ever did for our family dynamic was take on the thought, truly take on the thought, 'My kids are fine.'"  Full Transcript For a full transcript of the episode, click here (https://3in30podcast.com/episode-115-transcript/) .    Links Mentioned in Today’s Show Marriage Laboratory (https://www.marriagelaboratory.com/blog/author/celeste-davis/) Marriage Theraoke (https://www.marriagelaboratory.com/marriage-theraoke-podcast/) To Raise Happy Kids, Put Your Marriage First by David Code (https://www.amazon.com/Raise-Happy-Kids-Marriage-First/dp/0824525388) I nstagram at @marriagelaboratory (https://www.instagram.com/marriagelaboratory/?hl=en) Episode 24 “Fighting Against Mom-Guilt.” (https://3in30podcast.com/captivate-podcast/mom-guilt/) Series about mixed-faith couples from Celeste's blog (https://www.marriagelaboratory.com/blog/category/faith-transitions/) Sponsor This month’s sponsor is InfantSEE®. InfantSEE is dedicated to educating parents to ensure that eye and vision care become an essential...

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

Part 2-2: How Understanding My Husband’s Pornography Consumption Led to Healthy Dialogue and HealingLeanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.**Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**Transcript:0:00:04 VO: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.0:00:23 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. I'm really excited today. We get to have Leanne back on with us. We get to explore some of the topic set we addressed in the previous podcast in a little bit more depth and I'm excited and thankful that you Leanne are willing to come back on and explore these topics further with us. There is a lot of excitement with people who listen to your podcast and we're just craving more and this is a very private and very vulnerable experience for you, so I really appreciate you coming on and being willing to explore some of these topics in depth. There's clearly a need and it's moved a lot of people to hear your story. So, let's turn it over to you. Where do you wanna start? What do you feel from the people who've listened to your podcast and the comments that have been made? Where do you feel it's important to start?0:01:19 Leanne: Well, first off, thank you for having me back. I'm excited to be back on here and like you say, to go over more in-depth of my journey and how I got to where I am today, but basically I just wanna start off with my struggles, like what my struggles were with my sexuality and what was holding me back for years and years. I struggled for probably... We were married for 31 years and I probably struggled for 25 of those years, overcoming some hurdles and issues that I had in order to be able to step into my sexuality. So, basically, that's just what I wanna share with everyone today is how I overcame. What those struggles were and how I worked through them, how I overcame them, how I was able to think differently. I think so often when we try to improve our sexuality, like we come to it from... Sex, like we try to... What sex acts can improve my sexuality, what things can I be doing in the bedroom to make me like it more. And I think too often we're just chasing after sex acts when really, especially for women, our biggest sex organ truly is our brain.0:02:42 Leanne: And one of the things I learned... Just what I've heard about, I haven't read any of her books, Emily Nagoski. I've never read any of her books but I've heard people explain about her brakes and accelerators and I realized that for years and years as... 'Cause I wanted to want sex, I wanted to like sex. I did have that desire, all through the years of my marriage, I just could not figure out how to get there. And so, I would try different things over the years but what I realized with brakes and accelerators was even though I was trying to push on the gas and go forward and figure it out, I was standing on the brakes. I had so many issues piled up that I just didn't have my foot on the brake, I was standing hard on the brake. And so that was preventing me to make any forward movement at all in the area of intimacy, does that make sense?0:03:38 Daniel: It does and for those who aren't familiar with Emily's book it's "Come as You Are", great book, very very insightful, gets into exactly what you're talking about, the science and the process our brains go through in experiencing sexual arousal. Tell us a little bit more though. What do you mean you're standing on the brake? What did that look like for you? What were you doing or not doing?0:04:01 Leanne: For me, standing on the brakes, I guess, meant for me just any time I would try to make any forward progress in my marriage. One of the issues that I want... I'll talk. Some of these issues that were holding me back, they would just come forward to the surface and then I would be slamming on that brake again. And so, yeah, I guess going forward, talking here, we'll just start talking about some of those things that kept me with my foot on the brake.0:04:27 Daniel: Yeah, let's start by that.0:04:29 Leanne: Okay, so first off, when I finally decided that I really wanted to start working on my sexuality, one day I came across a little meme on Facebook and it broke down the word intimacy and I'm sure people have seen this before, but it broke it down to me saying, "Into me see". And I break it down to "into me you see." And what that means to me is, for me, the goal in marriage is to have a desire to know your partner on a very deep level and then to also allow your partner to know you on that very deep level. And for me that means knowing your partner's heart, their mind, their spirit, their body, and then letting them also know your heart, your mind, your spirit, your body. And so I really wanted that, that was the goal of me being able to work on my sexuality, was I wanted all of that, I wanted all that intimacy had to offer, and so that was the driving force that moved me forward to really working on my sexuality. But first, the first thing I think that I had to figure out was in order to be intimate on a sexual level, and to have true intimacy in a marriage, you really need to work on all the levels of intimacy in your marriage, and that means working on the psychological intimacy in your marriage which means honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment. I feel like that is the foundation to your marriage, is those four things; honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment.0:06:09 Leanne: And then the other areas are verbal, emotional, intellectual, spiritual, physical, and then I've also added recreational. But in order to really be able to work on that physical level, the other levels had to also be being worked on. It's not just enough to say, "I want a wonderful intimate life, intimate sexual life." I feel like it was important in my marriage to work on all the levels. And once my husband and I started to work on all those levels of intimacy within our marriage, then it was easier to work on the physical intimacy part. I think so often we hear that women are more emotional and for me that's definitely true. And so I had to feel like things were being worked on outside of the bedroom in order for me to also be working on things inside of the bedroom.0:06:57 Daniel: Before we get there and maybe you're gonna address this, but what did you have to do yourself? In the previous podcast and online you've talked a lot about how you have to face your own trauma, you have to face your own hold-ups around this before you can engage and improve your relationship together. That's a very difficult place for people who especially have experienced trauma and mental health issues around intimacy. How did you get there? What did you do to... We already discovered in the previous podcast that you do have a level of insight that I think is a little higher than most people, but regardless, what did you do to recognize, "Okay, I need to address this, this is my issue that I need to overcome." And what steps did you take?0:07:50 Leanne: I honestly think the thing that really hit me the hardest when I started to really face myself was one day I was... It was the very, very first podcast that I listened to from Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and I can't even remember where... I know it was some LDS site, like LDS Living or something and I've tried to find it and I haven't been able to just find it since, but she talks in that podcast about... We really need to bring our very best self to our partners every day. Like, we need to take a good long look at ourselves and ask ourselves, would we wanna be married to ourselves? "Would I wanna be married to someone like me?" And when I really started to look hard at myself and answer that question, the answer was no. I would not wanna be married to me, I was not nice because of some of the anxieties that I faced, I gave myself permission to act badly towards my husband either in coming from a place of I'm trying to protect myself or then also coming through a place of excusing my anxieties and saying, "I can't help it. This is just how I soothe myself, it's how I soothe my anxieties, is to control everything that's around me."0:09:09 Leanne: And so, it really hit me hard when I listened to that podcast when she said, "We, we need to bring our best self to our spouse, every day." And I feel like my husband, for the most part, did bring his best self to me every day. He is so kind and very caring and very patient. And I realized that I wasn't giving the same.0:09:32 Daniel: Was there a point, and maybe I'm making some assumptions here, that you viewed him as the broken one with the issues around pornography and maybe his behavior in the bedroom? Did you view him as the broken one and then have this epiphany like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm the one who's struggling here."0:09:49 Leanne: It doesn't really played a role, it played a role in the bedroom, it played a role just because I had my foot so hard on the brakes that I... "He's just using my body because of what he's seen."0:10:03 Daniel: Yes, exactly, thank you for clarifying. And that's what I was alluding to.0:10:07 Leanne: Yeah, so some of the struggles within the actual sexual realm of things, I could blame some of them on him but I also knew what was going on in my own head, surrounding some of the struggles that I had, and so then I just realized I needed to work on 'em.0:10:32 Daniel: Yeah, again, so you had that level of insight where you were able to acknowledge, and I think for the most part, most people are like that. Specifically women. I think there is that level, "Okay, I know there's an issue here with me too, but the pain and the difficulties in the relationship make it difficult to focus on that inward self because you see other problems in the relationship that you want to address or think are bigger and contributing to that, in this case maybe the pornography, it's tempting to say, "My husband's behavior is what's triggering me and until he fixes it, I can't fix myself." But you're seeing that or at least at this point you're saying, "No, I gotta address myself too."0:11:17 Leanne: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I knew it was part of it, but I knew it was definitely not all of it, so I finally had to just face myself, "I need to figure this out." So then some of the things that I struggled with, like the first one being "the good girl syndrome" and I talked about that the other day. I think it's so hard, and not in just LDS relationships, but also I've heard lately more just in Christian relationships, in religions that really stifle sexuality or have such a strong belief around waiting 'til you're married. So, we get this message growing up that it's a bad thing like, "We don't do this, it's bad." And then all of a sudden when you're married, it's okay, it's fine now. It's really, really hard to change gears for a lot of women, and not just women, but for some men too, it's really hard to all of a sudden think it's okay. So, I had to get over that good girl syndrome and just really come to embrace the fact that I was created to be a sexual being as well as a emotional, and intellectual, and spiritual being, I was also created to be a sexual being.0:12:28 Leanne: And, I think, so often growing up and nobody talking to us when we're teenagers of how to embrace our sexuality we try to repress it. And the other thing I struggled with and I talked about this on the last podcast, was I struggled to be sexual and spiritual within the same body, that didn't make sense to me of how to marry the two. And so the danger is in that though was I was completely shutting down my sexuality because I thought that my spiritual self should learn how to control the physical self. And by doing that it's like you're cutting off your arm, like when you shut down, you're shutting down a part of who you are and it's...0:13:12 Daniel: Let me pause you right there for a second 'cause that's I think an important statement there, and I wanna make sure that the listeners understand what you just said. Tell us a little bit more about what it means, or at least what your paradigm was at the time that you're thinking the spiritual self should, would you say control my sexual behavior or my sexual desire, and you couldn't marry 'em together, what were you... Tell us a little bit more about what that meant to you at the time?0:13:39 Leanne: I feel like it meant that if I... We hear that about our carnal selves and that we need to learn, control our carnal selves, and the natural man is an enemy to God. And so I think I was equating that my sexual part of myself was carnal, it was dirty, it was naughty, it was wanting things that it shouldn't want, and so...0:14:06 Daniel: And that's why you were shutting it down, is...0:14:09 Leanne: Mm-hmm.0:14:10 Daniel: The experience you're having spiritually, so what was that? Did you feel like it was the spirit telling that this was inappropriate, that this was dirty, this shouldn't be pursued? And if you did, how do you view that insight now? Do you still look at that and say, "Yes, that was a spirit telling me that?" Or how do you reconcile that now?0:14:31 Leanne: No, I don't believe that was the spirit at all. I think that was fear, I think it was fear, I think it was guilt, it was shame, it was those. It was those feelings. They were very negative and I don't think that's how the spirit works.0:14:45 Daniel: Yeah, and it's interesting though, because this is not the first time I've heard this. And I've had many, many people come in and say, "This isn't right, the spirit's telling me it isn't." But typically, and who am I? I can't tell somebody that they're not feeling the Spirit, but this is usually what I'm discovering, is it's fear. How would you guide people who are trying to sort that out to distinguish between the Spirit and the fear or guilt that they're feeling around it, and why are they confusing the two? Kind of a bunch of questions there, but I guess, how would somebody distinguish that? What did you do to identify that really wasn't the spirit, that was actually fear and guilt?0:15:33 Leanne: When I finally decided that I was gonna work on my sexuality and really open up my perceptions, and my thinking around it, and just become more open in my thinking, very quickly when I started to work on things with my husband there was a difference. Our relationship just grew so quickly, whereas before there was just... It was a hindrance to our relationship, progress was not being made. The guilt was there that I should not feel that way towards my husband, it's a beautiful thing and if there's guilt for even trying to become closer, I mean that's not right. That's not what our heavenly father wants for us, He wants us to be close, very, very close in that relationship. And so, once I just decided, "I'm not gonna feel these feelings of guilt anymore. I'm not gonna allow them into my mind," and started to work on things with my husband, very, very quickly things moved along at a really beautiful pace, really beautiful, wonderful things were happening within my marriage.0:16:51 Daniel: Are you willing or comfortable with sharing any details, experiences around that?0:16:58 Leanne: Well one thing, and I kinda have details interwoven when I talk about some of my struggles. So there's the one struggle that I had of giving and receiving. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife talks about this a lot. Truly being able to receive from your partner and you truly being able to give to your partner. I think, so often as women, we have a hard time receiving because we're always on the giving and the serving end of the doing and the taking care of kids, we have a really hard time receiving sometimes. And so the very first time that I had really learned how to calm my anxieties down in the bedroom, and there was one particular time when we were being intimate, and I for the first time ever I felt on a very deep level of how much my husband was giving to me, like giving his whole self to me, his heart, his spirit, his mind, his body, and I just had tears just streaming down my face because I felt like his goodness was pouring into me, and afterwards I was like, "I felt that. I felt your generosity towards me. I felt your love and your goodness," and he said, "I've been trying to love you that way for 27 years but you shut me down."0:18:25 Leanne: I was just stuck in a place of, my mind was just so closed because of the guilt that I couldn't even open up to begin to accept what he was trying to offer me through his sexuality.0:18:36 Daniel: What an amazing experience. He was able to tell you that in those words is, "You're were shutting me down?"0:18:42 Leanne: Mm-hmm. Yup.0:18:43 Daniel: It sounds like maybe you were ready and a place to hear that. I don't know, if I recommend every husband say that to their to their spouse, but...0:18:52 Leanne: I definitely, yes, I definitely was in a place to hear that.0:18:55 Daniel: That's wonderful, and you were recognizing how much love he was giving to you. So it sounds like you were ready to hear that. What a wonderful experience.0:19:02 Leanne: And the other thing on that other end, so then the giving part, I think, that something that can become problematic and it was for me, is we...0:19:13 Leanne: Dr. Jennifer, she talks about this and she got this idea from David Schnarch. And it's where we want to belong to ourselves, like the desire to belong to ourselves is even stronger than the desire to receive sexual pleasure. And so, if we as women or anybody if you don't step into your sexuality and really embrace it and own it and want to share it with another person, then you're constantly gonna be feeling like your partner is taking it from you, 'cause you're not freely giving it and so you're gonna... Over time, I became very resentful because I felt like my husband was constantly taking from me and when I really stepped into my sexuality and had the strong desire to share it with my husband, it made all the difference in the world for me, I never feel like he's taking from me anymore 'cause I've owned it, I've owned that sexuality, it is mine, and it's mine to share. So those feelings completely went away. And so the resentful feelings went away, all that went away because my sexuality now belongs to me.0:20:17 Daniel: If you don't mind, I wanna emphasize that point that is so, so critical in the process. And I love how you describe it when you're rejecting your spouse, you're setting him up for failure and you're gonna always feel like he's taking something away from you or burdening you. And I see that dynamic over and over and over again, where the spouse, the wife in this case, will set certain expectations, until those expectations are met there's no physical intimacy, whatever those expectations may be, and it sets the partner up for failure because you can't ever really live up to those expectations. Whatever they be, you may be able to do it, but then it becomes a checklist and it's anything but intimate. And that creates that cycle downward that spiral downward because, so well said, because it feels like now it becomes this exchange of tasks and a burden, it does not create the intimacy. So that is so hard to break, but then what's reinforcing it is we're thinking, "Well, we're having this negative experience in our sexual dynamic relationship because he isn't doing his part." It becomes very deflective, and so being able to look at this and say, "Open up to it." And then it's connecting, it's beautiful.0:21:39 Daniel: And then you have these experiences. Now, not everybody's gonna have this, there's... In fact, I'm very curious, I would love to know at least your perspective what your husband was going through? He's been... He was giving and giving and giving for 27 years. That's endurance in... I would have to say, I know very few men who are able to maintain that level of giving for so long without becoming resentful, lost in their own sexuality. What do you think, if your husband wouldn't mind you sharing, what he was able to do to embrace that and continue patiently giving? And I'm not assuming he never had an issue of maybe resentment or hurt feelings. We're human beings, right? What do you think allowed him to continue to be loving and patient over almost three decades?0:22:33 Leanne: It makes me a little weepy. He just had a very, very strong love for me. So it sounds like cheesy in a way to be like, "It's because he loves me, that's why he was able to endure it all." But that really was it, he was so in love with me, and that's not to say that there weren't hard times, there were times when things were rough and he would weep and he would say, "You hurt me deeply, you're not nice, and you hurt me deeply." But it was because he loved me so immensely that he endured it, and then also when he prayed to know whether he should marry me or not the answer that he got was yes and take care of her. And he understood how broken I was from the trauma that I received as a child and a teenager. He understood that he knew how broken I was and I think also he knew I was trying. I did want to want it and I expressed that often. It's not that I was the type of person that I was like, "I hate it, don't talk to me about it. I don't want anything to do with it." I wasn't that type of a person, I was the type of person that I would longing to want it, I just didn't know how to get there. And so he was very patient with me all those years and he just loved me through it and felt like he made that promise to my father that he would take care of me.0:24:07 Daniel: What would you say to men who... I think there's a lot of men who have the level of love that your husband has for you, but the years have taken such a toll on them in their relationship and they're experiencing this, their wife not wanting you can't even bring up sex anymore, you can't talk about it. It's become very isolating even to suggest therapy or some sort of intervention around sex is just yet another manipulation or selfish desire to have more sex. What are your thoughts around encouraging those husbands to support their wives who are disconnected from this? Who aren't having that level of insight and they're starting experience that bitterness, any thoughts? They're not losing the love but they're they're lost themselves. It's been such a lonely experience that they don't know what to do. Do you recommend how husbands can support their wives and helping them understand their sexuality better?0:25:06 Leanne: That's a situation that really breaks my heart and I wish I could sit down with those wives and have a conversation with them because I feel like in a marriage where the wives have completely set down is a very difficult place to be for men. And my heart really aches for them.0:25:26 Leanne: I know that I've listened to a couple of podcasts by Jennifer Finlayson's life. Where she addresses that. And she talks about how a husband needs to sit down with his wife and say, "This is not okay for me, I need to feel loved in this way. And we have created this dynamic within our marriage to where we won't even talk about it and that's just not okay for me anymore. I'm suffering and our marriage is suffering and I believe you're suffering as well. And something needs to change." I'm not an expert to speak on that. But I feel like from things I've heard from Jennifer, she is an expert and has helped in that area. She talks a lot about how we each collude in the kind of marriage that we have. And I think that oftentimes in a marriage if we're not speaking up, in a loving way, and just kind of claiming what our desires are and what our needs are, if we're not speaking up about those then we are colluding in the type of marriage that we are creating.0:26:28 Daniel: I like that idea in what you're saying there. First of all, I think what you're saying is very helpful. I think a lot of women appreciate hearing that. That you feel sad that they're in those difficult, difficult places, where they don't even... To even think about sex, would just drain them and frustrate them. And somehow getting out of that.0:26:50 Daniel: But what I also liked is, how to have that discussion. I think there's so much shame for men. There's this, I don't know if it's completely acceptable. But it tends to be more acceptable to not want to have sex and so when the higher desire partner wants to have better sex or more connecting sex, it's viewed as selfish, carnal. And so the man and the relationship is experiencing these feelings of guilt, embarrassment. Yes, I wanna have more sex, I wanna have this type of sex. And so they're shutting themselves down, before they even have that conversation with their wife. But I like how you said that when you can frame it, put all other frustrations aside.0:27:32 Daniel: A lot of times this conversation happens in connection to so many things kids, busy life, stresses and then we throw in, "Well we're not even having sex anymore." or "That's all you want." But to be able to have that dedicated conversation and say, "Sweetheart, I love you and I want this area of our life to be better." and I keep it within that context, I think, can set each other up for success and to be able to address those issues better. I really like that insight there.0:28:01 Leanne: And the reason why I wish I could sit down and talk to the wives is, I think we as wives, really don't understand how that oftentimes, not in every marriage, but statistically are more regularly that a husband, the way he gives love and receives love is through physical intimacy. He feels it on a very deep level. And we as wives do not understand that. I think society has conditioned us to believe that men are just sex pots and that's all they want is sex. They just wanna use women's bodies to get their own physical pleasure and I don't think that's true at all. I mean, it can be true for some people, that they're selfish and they use their sexuality in selfish ways. But I really believe for the most part that men, that's how they are wired, is to love deeply and give love deeply, to feel love deeply and give love deeply through their sexuality.0:29:01 Leanne: And when I grew to really understand that, that's what changed for me. A big thing in the bedroom like that night when I felt the goodness coming from him, it's because I wasn't just being like yes my husband is having sex with me. I felt on a deep level what he was offering to me from every fiber of his being. When you can receive that as a woman, it is amazing and beautiful. And so I wish women could understand it and calm down their anxiety surrounding their husband sexuality and stop putting a label on what it is that they're wanting from... And open up their heart to the fact that your husband just wants to really love you deeply. That helped for me a lot.0:29:45 Daniel: I love this so much because one of my mentors in this field has often said, "Who is your sexual role model?" And I think that's one of the biggest obstacles that we face both men and women in relationships is, you're doing something tremendous for women right now, you're providing, whether you like it or not, you're providing a healthy role model, and the journey you took to get there. It's one thing to hear you can have an amazing sex life, but what does that really mean when all your definition right now is around sex, your sexual relationship is shame, pain and bearable at times. What is it to even mean when we say a thriving healthy sex life?0:30:30 Daniel: I think, a lot of people think... Oh, just more sex. They don't understand what you're actually saying here is a beautiful, profound connection. Which is exactly what they're desiring and is being hindered because they can't see that. But the same thing for men, and unfortunately I think a lot of men get into this place that thinking just like women, sex is bad, but yet they have these urges and desires, and they don't know how to manage them. And then they start to view them cells in the way that they've been told to view themselves.0:31:02 Daniel: It's bad, it's dirty, they take on that definition so they don't even engage in the conversation. And I'll tell you from personal experience because we don't have sexual role models and we don't understand what healthy sex looks like. Which is a variety of experiences, based on couples personalities, cultures and their relationship with the Lord. I didn't know what I wanted. And so it was a frustrating conversation to have, because even though my wife was willing to listen and not just willing, but embracing it. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what I, I think I knew what I wanted in a relationship, in a sexual relationship. But then I had to come to the understanding to be able to explain, you know what, this is what I'm curious about, I'm wondering if this will work well for me.0:31:49 Daniel: And for you, let's reevaluate because I think we finally have this big conversation, this vulnerable conversation where you're now in a place to have that conversation and your husband is, "What do I say? I just want better sex. And this is how I think we're gonna get there and then we hold to that." It's like, "You don't want that? Well, you know what? I just discovered what I wanted in the relationship was to be able to explore that with you. It really had little to do with the actual physical act but now I feel safe." I could tell you, I'm really curious about this and I'm wondering if this will help in our relationship and not be shut down or viewed as selfish or promiscuous or dirty. I know in my personal experience that allowed me to at least redefine what a sexual relationship looked like because I really didn't know, I had no idea. And where do you begin with that? Even when your wife is willing to have that discussion, I think it's a daunting and scary experience but allowing yourself to reevaluate, come back and discuss, and I think that's been the most bonding opportunities with my wife is just being able to feel like we can openly discuss it. What's your experience around that? Or does that resonate with you?0:33:03 Leanne: Yeah, when I was starting to work through all these, all the things that like the breaks that I had on, like the Good Girl Syndrome, marrying of the spiritual and sexual and just all that. When I was really starting to work through those and be able to push each one aside as I work through. We started practicing, we had sex every day, every single day for probably about six weeks and it really was a learning, and a growing, and a discovery time for the two of us. Just like what does this look like? What does this sexual relationship between the two of us? What's it gonna look like? And so, we practiced and try things and for six weeks, every single day, and it was a great learning experience for both of us, where we both felt free to express our desires and discover each other in a sexual way.0:34:03 Daniel: What made you think of that? I mean was that just something that you randomly thought of says, "Hey, let's do this every day for six weeks and see what happens." Or where did you get that idea from?0:34:13 Leanne: We just started practicing and it just happened. [chuckle] It is not, but that's okay. And it's funny and I have to say this. So, just recently in general conference the one man gave the talk about reading the Scripture and suddenly he's like, "Every day, every day, every day." And my husband and I left because when we were practicing, when we would start again my husband was like joking he got, "Every day, every day, every day." And so that just made us laugh so much when it came up on general conference and we looked at each other 'cause it's just kind of something cute that you would say to me as we were practicing, but we never like said, "Here's the timeframe, we're gonna do this for six weeks. Is just happened that I think we were just both excited that we were working on it, that we were discovering each other, it was exciting for us.0:35:05 Daniel: You took away in that strategy, if we called this pursuer and avoider dynamic where he's pursuing and you're avoiding and you created as a both come together, you're treating each other as equals. I think that's crucial, I think there's this... As we engage into this discovery mode, we pay a little bit more tension like you've been cautioning people to do, to put aside your fears, but there's still that fear there that they want to respect and they don't jump in like that. And I think that's really important, I think we're preparing a little too much emotionally to go into sex and instead view it as, "Let's learn, let's try this, let's schedule it, let's at least plan for it in some way and make it a mutual goal." And that eliminates a lack of predictability, right now, at least at that point in your relationship, what I'm hearing is there's so much unpredictability and there's so much harder and discovery that need to happen that you didn't wanna give heed to that ambiguity anymore. You said, "Let's do this every day. Let's create some predictability, let's be a team on this and come together." Am I hearing you right?0:36:16 Leanne: Mm-hmm. And one thing I wanna say too about that pursuer and... I, a couple of years before that, one thing that we did that helps us transition then 'cause like I said I did want to want sex. I did try different things throughout our marriage to figure things out. But one thing that was helpful for me is Laura Brotherson does talk about how sometimes husbands and wives can create anxiety within each other and by the husband-wife, she calls it the Hungry Dog Syndrome where the husband like it's been a while since he's had sex and he wants it, and he's requesting it and his wife doesn't want it, and so we're creating this hungry dog, she calls it syndrome, where he's chasing after her and looking for any cues that she's throwing him that he might get lucky that night.0:37:09 Daniel: Oh, yeah.0:37:10 Leanne: And he gets irritable and cranky because he's not getting his need's man and he's not being able to be close to his wife in the way that he wants, and so he gets cranky but the more he pursues her and chases after her, the more anxiety is created in her and so she is the avoiding wife, she will avoid touch, she will avoid flirting, she'll avoid any flirty looks from him, because she doesn't wanna send him a message in any way, shape, or form that he might get lucky. And so you're creating this anxiety within each other outside of the bedroom where he's chasing it, she's running all the time. And so, I came to my husband one day and I just came up with this on my own, I sat down with him and I said, "Okay, I need to learn to not run from you, any time you go to hug me or touch me." If I'm at the kitchen sink and he comes up and fondles me, I would elbow him like, "Stop, you always have to be touching me." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I said, "Can you not just love me for my brain? Does it always have to be about my body?" I've said that so many times to him.0:38:12 Leanne: Why does it always have to be about my body? And the sad thing is he just wanted to be affectionate with me, he just wanted to love me, he just wanted to come and connect with me. But I always perceived it as, "This is sexual, so stop." So anyway, I sat down with him and I said, "I need to learn to stop running," and so at that time, what I said was, "Can we please schedule sex? How many days a week would you like to have sex?" And so we negotiated how many days that would be and we said, "Okay," then I said, "Which days are those?" And so we decided upon which two days of the week those were gonna be. And I said, "Okay, I promise you that on those two days I will say yes, we will have sex." But on the other days outside of the bedroom or even inside the bedroom, no matter how much touch we give each other you cannot ask me for sex. But I need to learn to become comfortable kissing you, embracing you, allowing you to touch me in those fondling ways, and I need to learn to be able to calm my anxieties down around those types of touches. And I said, "Even if we full-on make-out on the couch, you cannot ask me for sex if it's a non-sex day," so that I can learn to be comfortable with touch, with your touch, with your wanting to be just intimate with me just through touch that's not sexual in nature.0:39:34 Daniel: I can't tell you how successful that strategy is. Too many people feel like, "Well that's gonna kill the mood and the desire by scheduling. And I will even depending on the relationship, tell them to schedule specifically when you're gonna do it, 9 o'clock at night, 8 o'clock in the morning, otherwise we find we push it out, but not everybody has to do that. Like your approach generally saying, "Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example, are our sex days and it will happen that day," that allows us to put aside our anxieties. Okay, I'm not gonna engage 'cause as you said, "This sexual dynamic becomes a pursuer and an avoider experience where the man is looking for every clue, looking for all those micro expressions. Is this a flirt or is she just being nice with me? Can I go in for a loving touch? And then it feels like groping, it feels like inappropriate, it feels like objecting, and then it shuts down the loving engagement that the the husband is trying to express. But by setting up a specific time we're able to put those anxieties aside. Okay, I don't have to worry about being grabbed today, randomly, or I don't have to worry about constantly looking at my wife.0:40:41 Daniel: Is this the right time? Is she giving me a clue? We put all that stress aside, so we've been able to eliminate that stress. We've already got too much stress in our relationship, and then to be able to engage, and follow through with that. And a lot of couples feel like that kills the romance. And so the first question I ask is, "Are you having romance right now? [chuckle] No, no, none. And so being able to create that predictability will then allow for romance to happen. And so you can create, so excellent approach. Absolutely excellent.0:41:15 Leanne: Because I found that in doing that, being able to calm down that anxiety, then when he did come up, for instance, behind me at the kitchen sink and give me a hug and then maybe even fondled me a little bit. I was able to learn to fold into that touch, to really embrace that and appreciate it, and just know that he just was wanting my attention. He was wanting to be affectionate with me, and I was able to fold into that instead of being angry, "Ahh he wants sex with me tonight," it's like, "Nope, it's not a sex night," I can fold into this, he's just wanting a moment with me at the kitchen sink. So that helped a lot, and that was a couple of years before the whole exercise of every day. And now it's not even a thought, we engage in all kinds of touch and flirting, and it's not even a worry in either one of our minds if it will or will not lead to the bedroom. Our relationship now it's beautiful, it's wonderful. All of it is just embraced and cherished.0:42:19 Daniel: Do you have any words of advice or cautions that you've learned from your relationship that you feel is important to share that we haven't addressed yet?0:42:28 Leanne: Any cautions?0:42:29 Daniel: Yeah, maybe reflecting on your own approach, What words of advice would you give the wives who are maybe willing to, "Okay, this is scary for me, I wanna open up and embrace my husband's sexual touches." Is there any words of caution around that? Do you feel like that can go wrong? Or did it go wrong for you at any point? Or any other aspects of your sexual relationship and self-discovery?0:42:55 Leanne: I definitely feel like there are still boundaries. And I still give myself permission if there's a certain thing I don't like, I voice it. Just because we're being more open and accepting, you still have your boundaries and it is absolutely okay to voice your boundaries and say, "I don't care for that, or I don't like when you touch me in that certain way it really bothered me because of the," is that what you mean?0:43:22 Daniel: Yeah, that's a great clarification. 'Cause I don't want the listeners to think, "Okay, I'm going to follow Leanne's example and just give myself completely over to my husband's sexual desires and anything goes. You still get that right to say, "I'm uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure about this, I'm not ready for that." Whatever that boundary looks like. And so how do you go about or how would you recommend going about that? 'cause it could be a fine line at times, right? You're wanting to explore, but you also don't wanna shut your partner down. How do you have that communication or to navigate that, that disinterest or that boundary without shutting down, or regressing in your recovery?0:44:06 Leanne: Well, for me, we have progressed so far that I do it just because of the personality that I am. I kinda do it in a blunt, but jokey way, I will say to him, "I am not a milk cow. Please don't touch me that way. It makes me feel like a milk cow."0:44:26 Leanne: Like, stuff like that. Because we've come so far that it's not... We know where we are.0:44:33 Daniel: It's not rejection.0:44:33 Leanne: No, it's not rejection at all because he knows that nine times out of 10 the way he touches me I love and I accept, and I revel in. But if there's a certain way I'll be like, "Hey, that doesn't feel good to me," and sometimes I'll make a joke out of it, but sometimes, I'm like... But I would say though in the bedroom, this is like outside of the bedroom, but in the bedroom when you're trying new things I definitely am more tender, or more thoughtful of his feelings, like make sure just, "Why don't you try it this way 'cause that way is hurting me a little bit." Or I'm more careful with how I... So just because that is so vulnerable place to be in the... You're all there, your whole body, all of you is there. And so I feel like more of a sacred space. I'm definitely more careful.0:45:22 Daniel: And I think husbands need to embrace the idea once you get to at least this level of sexual development and healthy approach. Recognizing it's not a rebuke, it's not a criticism. It's I want you to pleasure me, and if you're willing I could give you ideas on what will help, and right now that's not helping. And being able to embrace that as a learning tool and as a connecting tool as opposed to filling criticized and shut down. Because I think husbands too often will hear it, "Stop doing that," and they stop everything or they give up, or whatever.0:46:04 Leanne: I think husbands they get such a bad rap. It just makes me so sad. But I think they are very sensitive in this area. They feel like they're, society tells them that they should be these sexual experts who should automatically know how to please a woman or whatever. And it opens them up to, there's a lot of pressure that they feel to try to please their wives. And then I wanna talk about that for a minute, so the learning each other sexually. Too often we think that men just need to automatically know what their wives would want. And recently, I've heard this idea and concept and it's absolutely true, and made so much such in my head. You're the only one that's in charge of your sexual pleasure, you're in charge of it because you're the only one that's in your head and inside your body. Your husband's not, he doesn't know what you're thinking. He doesn't know what you're feeling inside of your body. And so yes he's trying to pleasure you, but if you don't voice if that's pleasurable or not he's not gonna know. And so it takes a lot of communication. And if a wife is not receiving, if she's unhappy with her sex life and basically all they're having his intercourse because she hasn't voiced anything different and she hates it and resents it.0:47:36 Leanne: Well, my question to them is, "Have you asked for anything different? Because how is he supposed to know that you want anything different? And I think me, I talked about this in my last podcast. But men and women really do need to understand each other sexualities and how we pick, and that women tend to be more emotional. And if my emotional needs were not being meet outside the bedroom, then it is hard for me to then be physical with my husband. If I feel like he was being, that he was mean to me on a certain day, or just really being grumpy and kinda taking it out on me, I'm gonna be less inclined to want to then be physical with him in the bedroom if he asks me for it. It's like, "You were kind of a jerk today, I'm not feeling emotionally connected to you because you hurt my feelings." But sometimes maybe we need to get to the bottom of that."Have you had a rough day? You seem really stressed today. Can I help you with that at all? Can we talk about that?" And maybe it's the end of the day and he answers that conversation, "Yes, he was really stressed and yes he would love to be with us intimately to get some tenderness from us to relieve that stress." And so yes, we can't completely shut him down because they were barking outside the bedroom.0:48:55 Leanne: But I think men also has a duty to understand that it's important for women to feel connected on emotional level with their husbands in order to be able to be intimate in the bedroom. But then on the other hand, women need to understand that men that's the way they connect with you is through the physical. That's the way they show you that they love you and you need to love and embrace that.0:49:16 Leanne: And women and men we've talked about it before, we need to figure out what each other likes. We need to have some [0:49:23] ____ focused exercises within our marriage where you're just really discovering each other's bodies, and discovering what each other likes. That needs to be happening. Women need to figure out what they love, so do men. And we need to come together as a couple and figure out and what then together we can do to bring the most pleasure to each other in all aspects, in the four-levels, spiritual, mental, emotional, bring all that together, and figure it out. And it's a journey. I think people think it's gonna happen overnight. It is not, it doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey and you need to embrace it as a journey. This is a journey of discovery that we are on together, and embrace it and be excited about it.0:50:09 Daniel: And it never ends, because we're constantly changing...0:50:13 Leanne: No.0:50:13 Daniel: As human beings biologically, emotionally, stress, whatever. And so if we think, "Oh that's a mistake," we finally feel like we've had some breakthroughs we enjoy sex this way, and I think that's why a lot of couples get stuck in a rut and repeating certain routine sexual behaviors is 'cause we knew it worked then, but it still needs to be discovered. Is this still working and explore that and also a thought, going back to what you're saying about if he's grumpy, I actually recommend that you first have sex and I think it goes along with this concept of being responsible for your own sexual arousal, not making somebody else a partner or excuse me, relying on somebody else for your arousal. There is definitely a need for your partner to be loving and kind to you to help that along, but I've often suggested have sex and then have that conversation of, you appeared grumpy today, and it was kind of hard to be around that. Can we talk about that? And you'll find in almost every situation, after you have sex it's much easier to have that conversation. Much, much easier and to recover and reduce that type of behavior.0:51:33 Leanne: Sex really is or can be kind of a bomb, like a healing bomb for couples. It's a beautiful thing, it really is. It's such a beautiful gift that God has given to couples, and it breaks my heart to see all the struggle that surrounds it. Because when the barriers can be broken down and the husbands and wives can really work on this part of their relationship, it really is a healing bomb for the rest of their relationship. It's like the crowning jewel and it breaks my heart when so many couples just struggle with it, and so many women just shut it down. Not understanding it at all, not understanding what it can be. It just, it really makes me sad.0:52:39 Daniel: I think we focus a lot on how the adversary can corrupt the sexual experience, and we generally view that in the context of perverting it in physical acts. But the one aspect that the adversary tries to destroy sexuality is by avoiding it. If he can't corrupt it, then avoid it. I refer to that as sexual silence, and that can take on many, many forms. Whether it's just not talking about, or avoiding it, or saying a certain behavior is bad, it shuts it down and it creates that divisiveness. But if we're able to use sex in a way to communicate we could bring each other together. And that's the beauty that I hear you saying over and over today.0:53:31 Leanne: I fully believe, my husband I have talked about this very thing quite often. The adversary, before we're married he will tempt us with trying to get us to have sex outside of marriage because after we're married he will try to get us to stop having sex. It is so true because he knows that will reek havoc within a marriage, and he doesn't care how he destroys a person. He doesn't care if he's having you have sex outside of marriage, or get you to stop having sex inside a marriage. He'll try to destroy people in any way he can, and he knows how powerful a marriage is when they can be deeply connected sexually. A marriage that is truly intimate in all levels of their marriage, that is a powerful marriage, and satan knows that, and he will try to get at it in any way you can. And the biggest way he does it is by shutting down sexuality. I firmly believe that.0:54:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Leanne, you've been so insightful. Is there any other things that you would like to address before we end today's podcast?0:54:37 Leanne: Okay, one more thing really, really fast.0:54:39 Daniel: Absolutely, take your time.0:54:40 Leanne: Can I just say that having kids is really tiring. And my husband and I weren't able to have children, but we adopted two children. And sex and being able to work on your life, sex life, it gets easier, and easier as the kids get older and older. And so I would just say give yourself grace in this area. Both husbands and wives need to realize that kids can be exhausting, and there's seasons of our lives that are harder for us to work on our sex lives just because of exhaustion. There are two things that kill desire the most, one is exhaustion, and the other one is being pressured. If you feel pressured to have sex or if you are exhausted those are the two main killers of desire. And so I just wanna say, just know that and work through that. It's gonna be tricky to work through when your kids are small, especially, but just try to keep working on that as much as you can. And just keep looking forward to that day, it's gonna get easier, it's gonna get easier. And now that we're empty nesters it's amazing because we work on it whenever we want. But we had something to work on it on the other side of our kids being gone, like we started working on this a couple of years ago. And so we weren't staring at each other when both of our kids are gone saying, "We don't know who we are anymore. Like who are you?0:56:17 Leanne: I haven't been creating this relationship with you all these years. I don't even know you." And husbands, I didn't realize how hard kids were until I had my little grand baby for two weeks, a couple of weeks ago, and he kicked my butt. I had him for two weeks and I was exhausted, and it really made me appreciate again young mothers. And so husbands just step in where you can to help her, especially if it's a night that you know you're gonna have sex. Help her get the kids to bed, help her with dinner, help her relieve some of that exhaustion, so she has some energy left for you at the end, 'cause honestly kids can be exhausting.0:57:04 Daniel: Yes, they can be.0:57:05 Leanne: I discovered that. [chuckle]0:57:07 Daniel: Absolutely.0:57:07 Leanne: I discovered that a couple of weeks ago. I was like, "Oh my God."0:57:09 Daniel: In with those, to borrow this idea that we talked about earlier. Even in my opinion, I find that with kids scheduling is even more important 'cause you can do it during nap time time, and create some sort of expectation around that, positive expectation with your spouse, so that you don't feel like you're being demanded from constantly. Thank you Leanne. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing more of your story, thank you.0:57:38 Leanne: Can I say one more thing really, really fast.0:57:40 Daniel: Of course. Go for it.0:57:41 Leanne: Okay, one thing that helped me the most and then I'll be done. It's been bugging me 'cause I knew I wanted to say it and I couldn't remember what it was. Because men and women's desire is so different, there's responsive desire versus, what's the other one? I'm sure you know it, responsive versus spontaneous. So a husband is more spontaneous desire, when he thinks about sex he's ready to go right then, and a woman is more responsive, she kinda has to kinda start being intimate and then the desire comes. And so the biggest thing that helped for me was to always have a pilot light lit with inside of me. And what the pilot light says to me is that, "I am so connected to you, and I want to be known by you, and I want you to know me, and I wanna connect on a deep level, we are already connected on that deep level." And so that pilot light is always lit and whenever my husband wants to be intimate or whatever, and I initiate just as much as he does now. But whenever he does want to initiate the answer is always yes because that pilot light is like, "Yup," and I know it will take me a little bit to get in the mood, like right now I'm not sexually feeling it in this moment. I'm not turned on in this moment, but I know once we get started it will come.0:58:56 Leanne: And I think so often women are like, "I just don't have a sex drive, I just don't think about it. I don't have a sex drive." Well it's 'cause we're created differently. We're responsive, we have to be talked into sex, or feel start to engage and then the response comes. And so, I think, we as women we need to remember that. You might not feel like you're in the mood right now, but start being intimate and you'll find that not too long into it you're in the mood. And so keeping that pilot light always lit for me is very helpful.0:59:45 Daniel: I think that was a wonderful way to end us. Thank you, I appreciate your time.0:59:52 Leanne: Yup, yup. Thank you.0:59:53 Daniel: Alright.

This week, we are joined by friends Ron + Morgan Day Cecil! They are the creators of a movement called Romance + Adventure and we have enlisted their help with our ongoing and sometimes wobbly quest for intimacy. Whether you’re seeking a deeper connection OR trying to wiggle your way out of a back-rub (ahem) these two are experts when it comes to heartfelt connection and we are SO ready to learn the magic of their ways.Meanwhile, do you want to grow a relationship that’s rooted in Great Love? Join us in Long Beach for the Grounded Marriage Summit in Feb 2020! Head to our site for more event info and click right here to support the show. ♥︎QUICK BITES:Book recommendations: The Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch, Intimacy And Desire by David Schnarch, Wired for Joy by Laurel Mellin.The miracle of love isn’t in the falling, it’s in the remaining. Morgan shares this quote with us as a reminder to keep making the choice, even though it’s not always easy!The Cecils remind us of the distinct importance of understanding, defining and communicating what we want by sharing it regularly (and openly) with our partner.Regardless of gender, remember that your sexual energies are meant to be complementary to one another and do not need to be identical.The person with the lower desire can “take back the lead” in order to feel empowered. The Cecils share a positive and proactive solution for couples who have libidos that land on completely different levels!Morgan explains why having “order” in the house is something that helps her feel free enough to get lost in a moment of passion. (Ron promptly begins clearing the space around her, just in case.)Talking about sex when we’re already laughing or having a good time together is what starts to normalize the conversation and remove potential triggers. Morgan reminds us to “Stay in the heart instead of letting ourselves get stuck in the head.”The Cecils teach us about brain state awareness. It is important to know that prioritizing personal growth is what allows you to show up for your partner as your true self. Relationships become dangerous when you to expect or rely on the other person to fix you.

Chelsea Peterson, a marriage and family therapist and owner of Cache Valley Counseling, joins Grace to discuss a long-awaited topic: how to understand and maneuver different levels of desire in the bedroom.Mrs. Peterson explains that partners differ in sexual desire far more often than not and that which partner is which can change (8:30). She then dives into the patterns that can arise when this situation is not handled well (12:05) and where the patterns can come from (18:20). (That's when Good Girl Syndrome is explained.) Thankfully, Mrs. Peterson takes us through how to retrain our brains (31:00). The brake/gas pedal analogy is helpful in identifying what triggers changes in the bedroom (42:15). After the host and her guest go down a bunny trail about sex and  nursing (46:15), Mrs. Peterson helps us lessen judgement around sexual preferences (51:15). Grace reminds us of the long term nature of the sex game and the motivation behind working hard now (57:00). Next, Mrs. Peterson discusses how to maneuver life as a high-desire partner (60:25). In closing, Grace and Mrs. Peterson clarify that no one needs sex, but everyone needs emotional connection (82:45). Recommended resources on sex (the anatomy and relational sides) are as follows: Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski (on Amazon here)And It Was Very Good by Our Earthly Parents (on Amazon here or email Chelsea at info@cvcounselingservices.com for a free PDF)Attached by Amir Levine (on Amazon here)Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch (on Amazon here)“The Intimacy Podcast” with Rhonda Farr (link to Apple podcasts here) Instagram accounts:@kristinbhodson (website here)@finalysonfife (website here)@marriagelaboratory (website here). Thank you for listening to this podcast! Sharing it with a friend or leaving a quick review on iTunes would be deeply appreciated—it spreads the word and keeps this show going. Follow on Instagram @thenewlywedshow and Grace Jensen @gracewjensen. She would love to hear from you! And a HUGE thank you to Cache Valley Counseling Services for connecting Grace with their therapists to bring information to you! You can reach them at https://www.cvcounselingservices.com/.You can also support the podcast by snatching up quality, trendy, comfy clothes with a 10% coupon. Check out with code “newlywedshow” at https://www.aliceshootspeople.com/shop/ You can access more discounts and giveaways by joining the shop's Facebook page, Alice Loves Clothes. 

In This Episode We Talk About: Pleasure, exploring instead of achieving, enjoying the process, knowing ourselves as sexual beings, brutal honest communication with partners, porn being a mirror into our psyche, the spectrum of sexuality, different cultures of sexuality, kink, eroticism, respecting and honoring the seasons of your sexuality, her upcoming book, theory of leftover sex, pleasure goals for 2020  Resources: Learn more: The Yoni Empire and Onna Lifestyle  Instagram: @the_yoni_empire Magical tools we reference in this episode: The Erotic Mind by Jack Morin, Onna Lifestyle, Dr.David Schnarch, Dating a Capricorn  Guest Bio: Elena Rossi is a women's Orgasm Coach, Sex Educator, pleasure toy designer, full-time writer and lover of all things pleasure-related. Sensual connoisseur at heart, Elena has a no-bullshit approach to sexual wellbeing. She writes shamelessly about eroticism, supporting women with overcoming sexual challenges and tapping into their pleasure potential.   A passionate entrepreneur, Elena holds a Masters Degree in Leadership and has been creating successful wellness business concepts since 2011. She facilitates 1:1 coaching sessions and runs lectures all over the world.  She collaborates with the world's leading sexuality experts, creating top quality online content. Based in Amsterdam, Elena spends her days (mostly procrastinating), drinking coffee, self-pleasuring, trail running, supporting women in their sexual expansion journeys and working on her book series. She enjoys long walks to the fridge, sweaty Crossfit workouts and when ice-cream melts all over her hands. Elena is also famous for constantly fingering flowers on Instagram.

Berni und Rüdiger besuchen Sexualtherapeutin Ilka, weil sie herausfinden wollen, welchen Anteil Sexualität an der Erleuchtung hat. Außerdem wollen sie unbedingt wissen, was zum Teufel eigentlich nun genau Tantra ist, ob David Schnarch ein guter Sexualpädagoge ist und wie schnell Slow Sex zum Orgasmus führt – oder auch eben nicht. Gast: Ilka Stoedtner, Sexualtherapeutin (www.ilka-stoedtner.de)

This week the slutty scholars are joined by author, speaker, and ageless sexuality advocate Joan Price (AKA a conversation about all things sexy for seniors). Obviously, this episode is helpful for older adults, but it is invaluable and wise because we ALL get old! Also included: sex after grief and losing your beloved, what makes an ergonomic sex toy, the problems with desexualizing older folks, and how to have an orgasm without an erection!   Joan's new book!  https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/164250033X/ref=nosim/joanprice-20   Joan and Jessica’s video teaser: https://joanprice.com/wicked-sex   Other books mentioned:  Peggy Kleinplatz:  https://www.amazon.ca/Experiential-Approach-Sexuality-Peggy-Kleinplatz/dp/1138821799   David Schnarch  https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-Marriage-Intimacy-Committed-Relationships/dp/0393334279   FOLLOW US  Twitter Instagram Facebook Send questions, comments, stories, rants to: SlutsAndScholars@gmail.com   Sluts And Scholars is a production of Sluts and Scholars Media.

In episode ERP 171, I read a listener’s question and I shared some examples of different types of manipulative behavior. I also offered the first 2 tips on how to deal with manipulative behavior in relationship. If you missed it, I encourage you to check it out. To recap, the first two tips of How To Deal With Manipulative Behavior: 1. Identify The Manipulative Behavior 2. Focus On Your Power, Strength, And Goodness (Please listen to the podcast episode or read the transcript to hear explanations, stories and examples.) HOW TO DEAL WITH MANIPULATIVE BEHAVIOR (4 OF 6): 3. Work on Differentiating: “The ability to balance our needs for autonomy and attachment is called differentiation. Differentiation is a scientific process that occurs in all species. For humans, it is about becoming more of a unique individual and a solid person through relationships with others.” by Dr. David Schnarch Dr. David Schnarch’s 4 Points of Balance: Solid flexible self Quiet mind and calm heart Grounded responding Meaningful Endurance Use visualization techniques to help yourself. “I can’t tell you how many clients have said, when they’re in their 20s or 30s: ‘You know, when I looked at my dad, I realized I’m a foot taller than him.’ And it was a revelation because they still felt so much littler. So being able to reverse that and recognize, ‘Oh, I’m starting to feel small now, but wait a minute — I’m not,’ can be helpful.” Because, he says, “that’s the point of it. That’s how people manipulate. They make you feel small because that gives them more power.” by Dr. Dan Neuharth 4. Set Limits and Boundaries: Know your options. For example, “If this happens, then I will do xyz.” Use time as a resource. Don’t feel pressured to respond to any on-the-spot request. Learn to say “no” diplomatically but firmly. Speaking the truth with tact. Have an honest and open conversation, with support if needed. Create some distance, if the person is unwilling to work with you. 5. Deal with Grief and Loss: Accepting that the person may not change. Deal with the limitations of the relationship. Grieve not having the relationship you hoped for, imagined, or longed for. 6. Hold a Mirror: In the article, “How to Recognize and Handle Manipulative Relationship,” by Preston Ni, he described this concept of “holding a mirror” up to someone who may be making an unreasonable request. Put the focus back on them using probing questions. Reflect back the request and look at it together. Hopefully, the person will see the inequity of their request and reconsider.   MENTIONED:   ERP 171: HOW TO DEAL WITH MANIPULATION IN RELATIONSHIP (podcast) How to Recognize and Handle Manipulative Relationship, by Preston Ni (article) The Crucible 4 Points of Balance, by Dr. David Schnarch (article) ERP 135: HOW TO HANDLE GRIEF AND LOSS IN RELATIONSHIP – PART ONE (podcast) ERP 136: HOW TO HANDLE GRIEF AND LOSS IN RELATIONSHIP – PART TWO (podcast) ERP 169: WHAT TO DO WHEN DEPRESSION TAKES HOLD IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP – DR. SUSAN HEITLER (podcast) ERP 110: HOW TO MANAGE TWO MAJORLY CONFLICTING NEEDS IN RELATIONSHIP (podcast) Intimacy & Desire (book) Passionate Marriage (book) Photo by Sebastian Pichler on Unsplash   TRANSCRIPT: Click on this link to access the transcript for this episode: If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please reach out to me. Here is my contact information. Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. I would really appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. Thank you! ❤ If you are interested in developing new skills to overcome relationship challenges, please consider taking the Connected Couple Program or engaging in relationship coaching work with me.  

With so many different potential approaches to helping your relationship, how do you choose the one that’s right for you? And how do you make sense of them all together? John and Julie Gottman, Sue Johnson, Esther Perel, David Schnarch, Stan Tatkin, Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson, Terry Real - they’re all describing different ways of getting the same thing - a loving, thriving, passionate relationship. Today we’re going to tackle how it all fits together, so you’re better prepared to steer your own relation-ship. To help us integrate in a way that makes it practical and clear, we’ve invited Dr. Keith Witt back to the show. Keith Witt is an integral psychologist, which gives him a unique perspective in making sense of all these roads that lead to Rome. His most recent book, Loving Completely, details his approach to bringing all of the essential parts of you to your relationship. Along with having written 7 other books, Keith has conducted more than 55,000 therapy sessions with his clients! If you’ve been wondering how to make sense of it all, this episode is for you! Also, please check out our first three episodes with Keith Witt - Episode 158: Loving Completely,  Episode 80: Bring Your Shadow into the Light and Episode 13: Resolve Conflict and Create Intimacy through Attunement. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode has two great sponsors, each with a special offer for you. For a unique gift to discover meaningful stories from the life of someone important to you, visit Storyworth.com/ALIVE for $20 off a subscription. Share the memories with your family, and preserve them in a beautiful hardbound book. It’s a perfect Mother’s Day gift! Want to experience a Luxury Suite or VIP Box at an amazing concert or sporting event? Check out Suitehop.com/DATENIGHT to score sweet deals on a special night for you and your partner. Resources: Check out Keith Witt’s website Read Keith Witt’s new book: Loving Completely: A Five Star Practice for Creating Great Relationships Check out Keith Witt’s other books as well! FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict… Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) www.neilsattin.com/integrate Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Keith Witt. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. And if you can hear it in my voice, I'm particularly excited for today's conversation. Of course, we've had so many different viewpoints represented here on Relationship Alive because there are so many roads that lead to Rome, the Rome of romance and romantic partnership, and how we sustain loving, thriving, monogamous relationships, and it's not always that one road works for any one person. And this has come up several times in the show, this question of, well, “so and so says their way is the way and they sound so convincing when you're talking to them, Neil, so what do I do when it doesn't work?" And this happens sometimes. Neil Sattin: So, if you've tuned in for a while then you know that the reason that I have all these different voices on the show is because I really believe strongly that it's whatever works that's important. And I suppose for myself I might put some boundaries around that; what I'd be comfortable with or where I'd feel a little edgy or stretching, but for the most part, I think that it's up to you to really get informed about what's possible and then make choices that really align with you or maybe stretch you in a direction that feels like a light way to be stretched. At the same time, they all form part of this big puzzle that makes sense. And so, I wanted to have a conversation today about how we integrate as much as possible the way that we think about all of these different methodologies so you can see how they all fit together, they don't exclude each other, for the most part. They actually all find a place in the big picture of how we make relationships, what we want them to be. And as much as some of the people on my show might want you to think otherwise, this is my personal belief. Neil Sattin: And so to have this conversation, I've invited one of my favorite guests to have here on the show who also happens to be someone who's very good at integrating all these different approaches. His name is Keith Witt. He has been here before to talk about his books, "Loving Completely", "Shadow Light", "The Attuned Family"; and he is an integral psychologist among other things. And so the integral perspective, I think will help us understand how all of these different pieces fit together in a way that actually does make a coherent whole, it makes sense. So, Keith, thank you so much for joining us today on Relationship Alive. Keith Witt: I am always happy to be on your show and it's one of the pleasures of my life, our conversations. [laughter] Neil Sattin: Awesome, well, the feeling is mutual. I do want to say before we dive in deep that we'll have a transcript of this episode. If you're interested in downloading it, you may want to read it a few times, you can visit neilsattin.com/integrate 'cause we're going to be integrating everything today. Or, as always, you can text the word "PASSION" to the number 33444, follow the instructions and you'll be able to download the transcript to today's episode. So, Keith, let's start with maybe where you orient in terms of this conversation. And before we got started, you were talking about this sense of, as we talk about all these different schools of thought, we're really talking about the founders of modern relationship theory. So, where do you put yourself and how do you make sense of where you are in this conversation about how we're tying all of these things together? Keith Witt: Well, first of all, being a founder is a peculiar thing. I've developed various systems, all of them interrelated generally, under the integral umbrella. And integral has worked for me greatly. [chuckle] The reason why integral has worked for me greatly is the integral is a meta theory, not a theory. And so, I had actually generated systems and written some books about systems before I encountered integral. But then the integral, looking at the world through the objective and the subjective, the individual and the collective; looking at the world through types of people, states of consciousness, through people being at different developmental levels, including therapists, I realized that when you put any system into that, including the systems I developed, it expanded. And it made me just fascinated with the commonalities that affective systems, particularly of relationships and of love because I think everything's relationships is. Keith Witt: And so, one of the things that's different for me and other founders is that, even though I've... If you look at my eight books, there's essentially seven different systems interrelated of doing psychotherapy and of doing couples work. I'm not particularly invested in any of them. Those systems are useful, they're coherent, they have a lot of technical and theoretical interconnections with everybody else and with the research. But I agree with exactly what you said. Ultimately, when a couple or an individual wants to love better, they come in, it's the goodness of fit with the therapist and it's how effectively they move forward, and there's an alchemical experience that happens with that, that can only be described in the intersubjectivity of the session. And meta research on psychotherapy has shown this again and again, and one of my favorite meta-analyses, which they took lots of studies and put them together, they found out a couple of very fascinating things. One, therapy helps people, okay? That's good news for everybody. Neil Sattin: Good to know. Keith Witt: The second thing that the variance of change was explained by 40% in this meta-analysis, 40% of the variance of change was client variables; how resilient they were, what kind of social networks they had, what kind of resources they had; 30% of the variance of positive change was the relationship, what was the solidity of the intersubjectivity of the alliance between the clients and the therapist; 15% was placebo effect. If you go to somebody, give them a bunch of money and they expect to change, you're going to change. [chuckle] Keith Witt: In fact, that's something that has completely confused the field when it comes to the whole psychotropic thing. Probably 30% or 40% of the effect of most antidepressants is placebo effect, 8%-12% is probably the drug. Okay, so 15% placebo effect, 15% method of treatment. Okay, well, method of treatment 15% is significant. In poker, 7% is skill and the good poker player always wins but that 15% isn't as big as the client variables and it isn't as big as that 30% of the alliance. And so, I'm aware of that and so I hold my systems lightly, even though I love them. And so, I look at the other systems and I look at my relationships with the other systems, and I get a lot out of all of them. But also, I noticed that as we moved through the fields, our own little blind spots tend to affect how we absorb systems, how we enact systems, and how we integrate them. And I find that interesting because every time I find a blind spot, that's an opportunity to wake up. And this is where our conversation went when we were talking about this. So, how do they fit together? Well, as it turns out, even though they look very different from the outside, most of them fit together quite well in terms of the constructs that the various therapists bring to bear with couples and individuals for that matter and what they have to do in a session to help people move forward. Keith Witt: So, that's pretty much it. My Loving Completely approach is approach that I love a lot, and you can check it out in my book, "Loving Completely". And my book, "Waking Up" that was the first book that I wrote after I had my integral awakening, is one of the first texts on integrally-informed psychotherapy, and it has sections in it around integrally informed sex therapy and marriage counselling. And I'm quite proud of that, and I think that works a lot, but are those more effective than Gottman's approach. Schnarch's approach, or Perel's approach, or Tatkin's approach? I don't think so. I think pretty much you have a good therapist, who's enacting their system and is attuned to their clients, they're going to do pretty well. And this goes for me, all the way back to my doctoral research. I was always interested in this, and so my doctoral research was I took three different kinds of systems and researched them in terms of how much they enhanced the health of clients. Talking plus touching, talking without touching, and touching without talking. And I found that the people got better equally, which led me to conclude that in psychotherapy, people have a natural healing style. Keith Witt: And what you want to do is you want to identify it and enhance it and let it and help it grow as you grow throughout a lifetime. And I think that's probably the best way to go, as a psychotherapist and as a marriage counselor, and certainly when I train people and supervise people, that's my perspective. What's your natural healing style? How can we help you expand that and grow within that natural healing style? And that natural healing style has to involve, not just your style expanding, but you expanding. If we don't grow as individuals, we're limited as clinicians. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that's... I really appreciate your saying that and it's making me think about that problem of when someone comes to me and says, "I tried. I found an EFT therapist and that didn't work, or I found a Gottman therapist and that didn't work." I wonder sometimes if that might be, because the particular therapist isn't necessarily 100% aligned in terms of their healing style, which you just mentioned, with the system that they've learned. It may be that they believe 150% in the effectiveness of that system, but if it doesn't tap into their own natural alignment and integrity and how they create resonance with their clients, then I could see it falling flat at times. Keith Witt: Oh yeah. Before, let me see, probably 2000, I've been doing this since I first started studying therapy in 1965. I mean, I've been studying bazillion systems. And so for me, until I was around 50, every time they discovered a new system, I go, "Oh, damn." Because I knew that I was going to get disintegrated. I was going to learn this system and it was going to disrupt my understanding of the psychotherapeutic universe. I would have to climb into this system and enact it until I could actually enact the system naturally, I could answer questions from the system. And I knew that it would re-organize my understanding of the universe, and it was a lot of work. So, every time I found a good system, I go, "Oh Jesus, not another one." And then I would study it and I would... Sometimes for years, and it was always difficult in the beginning because it would destabilize, and that's very much how development goes on any developmental line. You expand into the current world view, and something comes and causes that world view to not quite be enough, and so the old one disintegrates and you go through that period of disintegration before you re-integrate into a more complex system. And I kept hoping that it would be the end of it. I'd finally get a system that was so great that I wouldn't have to have go through that experience. Keith Witt: And then after I was 50 and studied integral and wrote about integral, I realized that I was enjoying the process now, that when someone came up with a new idea, like EMDR that it actually was... EMDR is wonderful in certain situations dealing with trauma. And so that was great when as soon as I identified it as a great system, I saw a research that persuaded me, I dived in and I had a lot of fun learning and acting EMDR until I could bring it into my repertoire of theoretical and practical understanding. Now, what did that reflect? That reflected my consciousness changing. Keith Witt: I shifted from being more egocentric in my understanding to being more open, so my unconscious was actually aware. Keith, there will be great systems that will happen and when they arrive, they'll help you grow and be a better therapist, they're wonderful. And so, my subjective reaction to them shifted from, "Oh, no," to "Oh, boy." And this is how you notice that you grow. You don't notice that you grow particularly because you have a new idea, you notice that you grow because you have a different natural reaction to something that you had a different reaction to before. And it's very difficult to notice a shift of world views from the inside. It's easier for other people to give you feedback about it until you get to a certain level of development in the integral, we call that the "second tier" and then it's just easier to see that kind of stuff. And so that's been my experience with this over the decades. That's my current experience with it. Neil Sattin: Great, yeah. And just to give you listening, a full sense of what I'm bringing to this conversation, I mentioned in the introduction that a lot of this is about you finding tools that work for you. I also have another bias that comes from my position of being able to talk to so many of the founders of relationship theories, which is... And it comes from my upbringing I think, which is this kind of like, "can't we all just get along" mentality. In an ideal world I'd be having this conversation, Keith, you would probably still be there and we would have everyone on a stage as a panel, but the express purpose of that conversation would be like, "Let's figure out how we can all work together." And my understanding is that, that's been challenging in the field to bring everyone together like that, but that's another thing that... My own agenda that I bring to this conversation is, I want everyone to get along and to commit to the overall betterment of how effective we can be in our lives or as therapists or coaches, or people who help others. It's really important to me. Keith Witt: Well, Amen. [laughter] Neil Sattin: And some other things that you were mentioning made me think immediately of John Gottman. And I can't remember if he mentioned this actually in our first interview, if it was part of what I recorded or if it was just part of my conversation with him. But he talks about how important it is for him to know when he's wrong. He keeps a very detailed record of all the ideas that he's ever had and I think he might have said that he's wrong more than half the time. Keith Witt: Yes, he says that. More than half of his hypothesis have been proved false. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: Right, right. And so for him, this is one of the things that he stakes his claim around is that, he's distilled a body of work that statistically has been shown to work more than 50% of the time I think, in fact it's like 86 or something percent of the time. And that being said, he's also... What I love about that statement is one, his embrace of the willingness to be wrong, which is so important at any level of relationship, relationship to an idea, relationship to your spouse, so I really appreciate that. And also it seems to be his major critique of people who would use other systems that maybe haven't been empirically proven to be effective because what if you put it under a scientific scrutiny and found that it only worked 10% of the time, like your best placebo on its, without; or sorry, your best drug without the placebo effect. So, that's where it gets confusing for people I think, because they're like, "Well, if my local shaman hasn't undergone scientific study, what do I do with the fact that it's actually been really helpful for me? Versus going to my Gottman-certified therapist? Keith Witt: John Gottman is the only founder that I know of whose psychotherapeutic approach and theoretical approach literally arose out of his research. That's not true for any of the rest of us. Everybody else was doing stuff that worked really well for them in certain situations and they saw how things fit together, and then they fitted it together with other stuff that they found out and created a structure. That's not a bad thing. That's how theories historically have arisen, in my opinion, except for say, physics. And John Gottman started out as a mathematician. Keith Witt: I went to a three-day workshop with him and Julie, and at the very end, I went up to him, I said, "You know, John, I've done a lot of this stuff, okay? And your system has the most amount of good stuff and the least amount of bullshit than any other system that I've seen." And he laughed because he got it. Another thing that endeared me to him, and I gotta say I am biased towards John Gottman, I love that guy, I think he and Julie are great. Keith Witt: In a conference where everybody's talking about how their system is the best, he went up on stage and says, "You know, I think about my treatment's failures." And I thought, "God, John, thank you." I think about my treatment failures too, what the fuck. What can I do different. What's the new stuff? He is a researcher. Now, I use a lot of his research to validate my approach, I've changed things that I've done in response to some of his research. I've changed some of my understandings in response to some of his research. Why? He's just the best and most comprehensive couples researcher around. In terms of my approach, almost every psychotherapist and all couples counselors to a certain extent through psychoeducation, you're basically teaching people about themselves and about how relationships work. Keith Witt: The nice thing about Gottman's approach is that he didn't really, in most of his work, he didn't really have confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is what most founders bring to their research, if they do research. Okay, well, if you're doing research to show that your system is great, that's confirmation bias. Now, human beings, when they develop, when they develop from fundamentalist, which is I'm going to enact the EFT system or the crucible system exactly how it's supposed to be, and I'm not going to really think about whether it's working or not, that's a fundamentalist system. I'm going with the structure, but because it's the structure. Keith Witt: When you go to a more rational system, a rational system is, "Well, I want to cross-validate things and see how they work, and if they work better, I'll shift into a new system." In between that conformist and that rational system, there's an in-between stage. Susanne Cook-Greuter and Beena Sharma who studied developmental stages, they call it the 3-4 stage 'cause 3 is conformist and 4 is rational; they called it the 3-4 stage. In that stage, people experience themselves as open to input, but actually they have confirmation bias, they're looking for data that support their preconceived notions and they very much resist change. Keith Witt: You know, back in the '90s, I went to a David Schnarch workshop. And so, David Schnarch was all about differentiation, a concept he obviously lifted from Murray Bowen and never gives him any credit for, which pissed off Dan Siegel enough in the conference so Dan Siegel called him out on it. It was one of those little conference snafus that happen, it fascinated everybody. So I went up to Schnarch, I said, "You know, I think there is a more fundamental construct than differentiation." He said, "What?" I said, "I think it's health." He said, "That's too broad." Now, maybe he's right. Maybe my orientation towards what's healthy and not healthy is a too broad concept. But his immediate reaction was dismissal. He didn't want to consider that there might be a more fundamental organizing principle than his, okay? There was confirmation bias. Now, he's a good counterpoint, to me, to John Gottman. John Gottman doesn't like people making assertions without doing research, but I don't care, I still love John Gottman. Keith Witt: David Schnarch spent minutes on stage during that workshop warning people to not use his stuff 'cause it's all trademarked and I found him arrogant and narcissistic, and to this day, irritating. Now, what is that? Both of them have their own critiques. Why do I find myself really liking John Gottman and irritated with Schnarch? Even more importantly, whenever you get irritated with someone, there's a tendency to dismiss what's great about their system. And this is what is beautiful about integral, integral says, "Everybody gets to be right, nobody gets to be right all the time." And Schnarch's concept of differentiation and holding on to yourself and the whole crucible approach to couples is a really good approach. Okay, that is very effective, particularly with some couples where they keep trying to move out of the container and you keep them in the container until something pops, and out of that pop come something new. And sometimes that newness is a new discovery of love for each other. Now, Esther Perel does a similar thing, but she's more of a practical romantic. I see Schnarch and Susan Johnson as more practical moralistic, in that they seem to literally have moral disgust for other people who disagree with them. [chuckle] Keith Witt: I go, "Okay." [chuckle] Maybe that's what irritates me about them. Like Susan Johnson says, "If you do your work, you have to be slow and soft." Okay, well, that works for her with couples. But you know, as people might have noticed so far in our conversation, I'm not a particularly slow and soft guy, okay? So, my natural healing style, sure, I can get really gentle with people, and I actually was critiqued by Gestalt therapists in the '70s by being too nice to my clients. "You're too nice to your clients, Keith." "Oh, I'm sorry. Just because Fritz [Perls] is an asshole doesn't mean I have to be an asshole when I do therapy." [chuckle] Keith Witt: And so, sorry, Susan, slow and soft is not my natural style, okay? It's alright. Now, does that make me less effective than her with a couple? Probably with some couples, I don't know. Neil Sattin: Right, and it would probably make you less effective if you were implementing her system. Keith Witt: Yes, that's exactly right. And when you learn a system, it's good to implement it. Now, even though I love John and Julie, John and Julie, when they talk about implementing their systems, they use a lot of their research tools. They give people like questionnaires, they give them cards and stuff, and they have their structured things that they recommend people doing. I'm sorry, I don't like doing that stuff. [chuckle] Keith Witt: My clients don't like doing stuff like that, but even if my clients liked it, I don't like doing it. If you go to a risk management workshop, they give you a five-page thing your clients are supposed to sign about all the horrible things that they can report you for and that the therapy does and doesn't do. I'm sorry, I don't do a five-page thing. We all have our different styles. Now, that being said, I just love that guy, love him, and every time he gets a new thing out... I studied his last book from the beginning to end several times, and except for the math, just found it utterly fascinating. And I see him as a practical scientific guy. He is a true scientist. John Gottman will change an opinion on a dime if you give him persuasive data. And that's just not true for many people. Neil Sattin: Yeah, so, since you've brought up David Schnarch, and unfortunately, he hasn't been on my show yet, so we haven't had the benefit of being able to hear from him directly. I still... I reach out to him every so often and I'm hoping that one of these days he will. That being said, it's funny. I have my own bias when someone doesn't want to be on my show. [chuckle] I'm like, "Well, what's your problem?" What you just mentioned about your experience with him, that seems in some respects, to make sense given that he's staked his claim on differentiation, that that's where he's coming from, differentiation being that sense of holding on to you and your sense of who you are no matter what someone else is throwing at you. And so in preparation for this conversation, I really dove into his passionate marriage work, which is sort of the lay person's approach to crucible therapy, which is what he calls his work in the therapeutic realm. And I found myself really appreciating it, in fact, and it got me irritated because even... I was listening to this one recording of him and he said something that was dismissive of attachment theory and... Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: And I love what attachment theory brings to the conversation about relationships, both how you come to understand your own dysfunction in a relationship or how you come to understand the function of the dyad, what that does for you. And concepts of safety and how that enables you to differentiate. I love that, and it kind of bridges into Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson's developmental model too, which we can talk about in a little bit. But that all being said, when I heard him talking about the importance of knowing who you are, and at the same time being able to remove your distortions of who you are. And he talks about part of crucible being that your partner being there, that's a great way for you to learn where you actually aren't who you think you are, just as one example. Or you get to, through self-reflection, see some of the dysfunction in who you are, and actually work towards growth and improvement. But when he talks about differentiation, he talks about some things that I think are key. You talk about, not only holding on to who you are, but also your ability to self-soothe, so to take responsibility for yourself when you're triggered. How many times have we talked about that on the show? He talks about getting over your reactivity, so taking responsibility for not freaking out at your partner when they trigger you. Neil Sattin: Again, so important, and fits right in. And then, he talks about, and I love this concept, the idea... And this is a place where I feel like he's kind of unique, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Keith, 'cause you have a broader perspective, perhaps, than I do. But he talks about... He names his approach as a non-pathological approach. In other words, if things are going wrong, then nothing is wrong. It's like, that's what you would come to expect. And that part of what he holds as an ideal in a relationship is the ability to hold onto yourself, to self-soothe, to not get reactive with your partner, and to hold the container of a relationship when things get uncomfortable. And that does seem so important, being able to grow with your partner. If you're so focused on fixing things and one of you capitulating to the other, it's not that there's never a place for compromise, but it's like, I think, and so many couples rush to that, they overlook the actual growth potential that happens in truly experiencing themselves as separate individuals with different ideas about how to live and how to be in the world, or how to be with each other. Keith Witt: It's a wonderful approach. It's a wonderful understanding. I like it. And I use those concepts and those understandings, and have, ever since I learned the system. That the system has great efficacy, practically speaking. Now, that being said... So let's just expand. Okay, so it's great to say it's a non-pathological system. Okay, fine. And basically, effective therapists operate from that perspective. Here's two people, they want to change, they want to grow. That power of a human consciousness wanting to change and wanting to grow is so robust that there's a lot of details of self-regulation and moderation and holding on to yourself and understanding. But there's that basic core of power, of human consciousness wanting to grow. That's true, and psychopathology has existence. If somebody has a personality disorder, there's no couples approach that is going... In my experience, maybe I'm wrong, because I've been doing my own work. My lab is my practice. I've done 65,000 therapy sessions. And so, I take stuff into my lab, so to speak. So psychopathology has existence. Sometimes you need to go into that to help people grow. You have tell somebody, like, "You have a distorted view of the world," and need to have some individual work to deal with that, or, "You are so overwhelmed by your trauma history that you have to go resolve that trauma before you can experience sexuality and intimacy with your partner comfortably." Keith Witt: That needs to be normalized and there's a subtle bias. In integral, we would call that a pluralistic bias or a green bias, to treat everybody like they're the same. This is what causes David Deida to dismiss psychotherapy in general. Now, that's an interesting thing. I'm a psychotherapist, I teach psychotherapy, I write about psychotherapy, I've generated systems, I'm a founder of systems, I go to David Deida workshops. He generally puts down psychotherapy as being kind of a pluralistic, limp-wristed, egalitarian, second stage, you know, wimps, so to speak. And I still love the guy, okay? [chuckle] Keith Witt: Okay, so why is that? Probably part of it is because I see him as a kindred spirit, as a fellow warrior. But when you and I were talking about this earlier, but part of it is I probably have more projections with people like David Schnarch or Susan Johnson, like that moralistic... Maybe there's a part of me that has moral disgust that I don't like and I project onto them. I do that a little with Dan Siegel. I love Dan Siegel's work, I've studied his books, I've listened to his lectures endlessly, I've enjoyed his lectures. And every once in a while though on stage, he starts complaining about how somebody treated him badly or how somebody doesn't understand him or he had to push back, and I just find that icky. I go, "Dan, don't say stuff like that. That makes the rest of the cool stuff that you talk about. You know, you're a brilliant man, and you've changed everybody. Your book, The Developing Mind, was my foundation of neurobiology, interpersonal neurobiology." Keith Witt: Alan Schwartz is similar. He says everybody bow to evidence-based treatment. He's irritated with this American Psychological Association privileging the research of, particularly, cognitive behavioral therapy, I suspect because cognitive behavioral therapists and the labs around the country get a lot of money and other people don't. So there's a lot of personality that comes through and yet all these systems have wonderful things about them. So, Schnarch is more practical moralistic in that sense. Esther Perel is more practical romantic, she's practical. All the good therapists are practical. You're with a couple, we're going to help 'em move forward and understand them individually and as a couple, and we have a vision of good relating that's for effective therapists is similar. But she has basically a romantic approach. You have your own way of understanding yourself, and of love, and I support that as a therapist. And you have your understanding of what you want with this relationship and I support what you want. And your partner is similarly. And we deal with that and from an accepting standpoint and a practical standpoint, how can we move forward? Keith Witt: You feel enlivened by your secret affair that devastated your partner, I understand how you feel enlivened by that. I understand the draw of that. I understand your resentment at your partner for not being more cooperative and creating better love, the partner is outraged that you did this. Well, I understand your outrage. I understand your desire to love better. It's a very romantic approach, but it fits very well with all the scientific approaches, the moralistic approaches, with even David Deida's mythological approach. David Deida is basically a practical mythological approach. He draws from the wisdom, traditions of masculine and feminine. He used to teach the Shiva and Shakti scale, just brought it out of the Eastern traditions. And yeah, it's practical. This is how we can help you understand yourself, understand your partner, and understand how you enhance the polarity to have the intimacy and safety and love and the passion that you want. And if you get down to it in the psychotherapy session, if you watch any of us doing a session with people, you'd see very similar constructs that we're applying and you'd see very similar interventions. Neil Sattin: Yeah, it's so funny I was listening to the first season of Esther Perel's podcast that she put out with Audible. I think it's called Where Do We Begin? Or something like that. And one of the sessions I was like, this might as well be Harville Hendrix that I'm listening to, just in terms of how she was showing up for that couple and talking about safety and the way they were constructing their communication and it was like right out of his getting the love you want workshop practically. So that was fascinating for me and I think worth noting because if you're just a bystander and you're like, say, listening to the Relationship Alive podcast, you can be so persuaded by one person's viewpoint or the other. And in fact, I find myself, like you were mentioning earlier, Keith, persuaded over and over and over again. Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: Because everyone's system has so much merit to it, that you might lose sight of where they both offer you something important. Sue Johnson and David Schnarch, it's interesting that you've paired them together because, obviously, they're in some ways they would see themselves as being in opposition to each other. Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: And yet, how many times have I seen with clients how important creating safety is to them, taking a stand for who they are? And vice versa, if they're all about the safety and they never take a risk by being who they are, I've seen that be problematic too. So, it's like everyone is reacting to the... What's the word? The distorted, the extended version, like if you go way too far into differentiation, that's not going to be a relationship. If you go way too far into creating safety or your couple bubble, like Stan calls it, Stan Tatkin, then you might lose the edge or the eroticism, which is what Esther would hone in on. You've lost your sense of the other person as other, you're too safe. Neil Sattin: So, it's so interesting because even in just this past three sentences or so, you've heard me jump from one to the other to the other trying to show you, like, "Yeah, they all actually feed into each other." If you're really, really stuck, like a lot of people are, I think that's why Esther's TED Talk took off because so many people are stuck. I think she writes in "The State of Affairs" that sexless marriage is one of the top Google searches or something like that. Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: So, if you're in a sexless marriage, then when someone starts talking about how you feel too safe and you've come to not think of your partner as someone else. And so here are some ways to get you back to a more erotic, playful space with your partner, then you're going to listen and that's going to make sense to you. But it wouldn't make sense to you if you had no safety in your container and your partner was constantly texting other people and flirting with the waiters and waitresses at the restaurants, and if you were in a totally unsafe world, then that's not going to be a place where Esther's work might, or at least what you might initially think she's getting at. But again, this is just her TED Talk, you hear her in a session and she's talking about creating safety within a couple. Keith Witt: Exactly. That practically speaking, everybody comes from constructs that involve relational patterns, a developmental orientation, that people are influenced by unconscious influences and trauma programming. Everybody has a vision of happy relating for every couple they work with. No effective couples counselor doesn't do that. We all, if we have a couple, we immediately start having a vision of how they could be getting along better with each other. And all couples counselors are informed by the psychological and psychotherapeutic traditions, therapeutic relationship attunement, and that kind of stuff. Keith Witt: Now, when you look at it, for me, the breakdown between Schnarch dissing attachment theory and Susan Johnson saying, "I have the only couples therapy. We never had a theory before me." Okay? Well, look, if you say to a bunch of founders who have their own theories, "You never had a good theory of couples until me," everybody's going to get pissed off. So, Susan Johnson says that, I go, "Susan, you've got a good system, you got a good theory. You don't have to piss us all off by saying that. You can say, 'I got a couples thing that I prefer to yours.'" And so, John Gottman will go up in a workshop and say, "Well, we have our theory." You know he's speaking directly to that. Keith Witt: Now, that being said, Esther Perel and Schnarch make a point that a lot of other couples people miss, they go, "Look, sexuality is a big deal and it's been neglected by the field," and they're right about that. That was true. In the '70s, therapists wouldn't even ask their couples about sex, it just drove me crazy. I did a lot of sex therapy training in the '70s because I realized that to be effective with couples, I need to be really good at helping them have better sex, and integrated that into my work and have ever since. And David Deida's stuff has been priceless around that stuff. Keith Witt: And so, the field has grown to that. And to their credit, once again, John Gottman and Julie, they have their system of expanding the conversation about sexuality and the behaviors about sexuality because they've demonstrated from their research that it's not enough to just down-regulate conflict with a couple, you have to up-regulate good times. And as I make... The point that I make in my Loving Completely approach, a marriage is a friendship, a love affair and a capacity to heal injuries and ruptures. That love affair is a big deal. That first star, this erotic polarity between me and my partner, gets more space in my book than any of the other stars. Why? If that love affair isn't happening then there's a lot of problems that arise out of that, and that's that sexless marriage statistics that Esther mentions in her book. I wrote a book called "A Hundred Reasons to Not Have a Secret Affair", I couldn't find a publisher for it. And I read "State of Affairs" and I said, "Well, I like this a lot better than my book." [laughter] Keith Witt: And really I think that's a really good book about affairs and you can just feel that practical romantic orientation on her part. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and when you say romantic, let's just... Can you get more clear on what that means, just so we get you there? Keith Witt: Esther has... Now, this is just my reading of her, okay? And I've never talked to her. I hope I do some day. There's this sense for her about love. There's a mystery, a cross-cultural mystery about love, that there's love is, I want to be loved, I want to love and I want to do it in a way that works for me. And if it's not happening, I'm suffering and I want to make it happen. And if it's not happening and I'm suffering, I need to take that suffering into the world and into my own development, into my relationship and make love happen. And there's a certain mysterious quality about it. And yes, there's things that interfere with it like lies and abuse and all that other stuff. And to a certain extent, because she works an awful lot with infidelity and that kind of stuff, you can see our practices shape our theoretical understanding. There's that sense of, if we open that up, then love will happen. Now hopefully, it happens with us as a couple, but if it doesn't, okay. It didn't happen. Love, the relationship just because it ends wasn't unsuccessful, we lose each other, we move on and we find love some place else. Keith Witt: Okay, to me, this is very romantic. This is a subjective love-based, romance-based orientation towards eroticism and sexuality. And it's very effective because that's how in terms of the neurobiology of bonding, yes, we go from our various arousal systems, into attraction, into distracting attraction, into romantic infatuation, into intimate bonding, into life stages. Now, what I think Esther misses, because she doesn't seem to be as interested in the science, is that it's an apples and oranges comparison that early attraction, distracting attraction, romantic infatuation, sexual drives, with the sexual drives that exist in intimate bonding, okay. Keith Witt: In intimate bonding, I have discovered or it's been my experience, to go into those romantic infatuation circuits, it's very, very intricate and detailed and it's not nearly as easy as finding a new person that you don't know. And so you can't compare, "Well, it's very hard to develop romance and passion with my husband, but really easy with my lover." Well, of course it is. We're wired to have that be the case. That's not the point. The point is that... And now we're getting into an integral understanding of evolution of consciousness. As we expand our consciousness, as we get more world-centric and more compassionate and less bullshit, our relationships are more demanding. And so it's very, very difficult. I haven't found relationships where people have the depth of connection that they want, knowing each other and accepting each other and loving each other deeply, that they have that and that that container, which is powerful but fragile, can tolerate one of them going out and falling in love with another person. And also, that container suffers if they don't do what they need to do to take care of their love affair. They have a love affair that they believe in that they're sustaining with each other. Keith Witt: So, why is that fragile? Well, because it requires an awful lot of attention and knowledge and understanding and self-regulation. Why is it great? Because there's deeper intimacy available in that container than in previous containers over the last 10,000 years and it's more demanding. If you have a very, very primitive... Say you have a relationship that's pure conformist. We're getting married, we're going to have kids, we're going to do what the Bible says or the Koran says. In those cultures, women stop having sex with their partner when they stop being of childbirth age, in general. Fascinating study. They just go at that point, they go, "Well, I'm not going to do it anymore." A lot, not always, but a fair amount. Why is that? Because there isn't a developmental layer of intimacy that they and their husband are working for, because they're in a system where he's in charge. She has to do what he says. I say "yes" to sex, until I can't have kids anymore and then I can say "no" if I want. Keith Witt: And if we don't have a certain level of intimacy and a commitment to depth, why would we be interested? He would be going after youth and beauty and maybe I'll have an affair or maybe I won't. It just depends. If you're going in, but if you both have the sense of equal depth, if you both are post formal operational, if you both want to sustain your friendship and your love affair and expand it and expand each other, well, then that requires a different kind of inner subjectivity. So these are very complicated forces that are operating on all of us. Now, they're explicit in integral psychotherapy because we always look at lines and levels, and probably, you're going to tell me about Ellyn Bader, probably in their developmental model, because developmental models notice that people's worldviews change, and that relationships, demands of relationship, change as we go into different developmental levels. Keith Witt: The other ones, the effective ones, unconsciously adjust for different people's worldviews, but sometimes don't consciously do it, because it's not visible to them, consciously, but unconsciously, in the session, they get a feel for it and they attune to it. Just like if you're an effective therapist... Stan Tatkin has practically nothing about sexuality in his system, but I'll bet if people come in to his system suffering from not being sexual, he climbs in, understands their experience from the inside, finds out where they're turning each other and on and off, and helps them find the kind of safety that they need to move into eroticism. Keith Witt: And eroticism's very central, because it's like the canary in the coal mine. Everything else has to be going pretty well for you to be good lovers with your partner. It's very rare, as a couples counselor, for people to come in saying, "Yeah, we're both fulfilled, sexually. We enjoy sex, we have sex regularly, and we want a divorce." That actually happens once in a great while, but that's like one in 100. Usually, when people come in and say, "Sex is great," there's a solidity to their relationship, and they're coming in to talk about other kinds of issues; money issues, sometimes... Often child issues and parental issues, sometimes physical issues, that kind of stuff. Neil Sattin: Okay, so... Yeah, there are several different directions that I feel myself being pulled, and... Keith Witt: Great. Neil Sattin: I think where I'm going to go right now is on this practical level, because I want this to all be practical, and we're talking about all these systems as practical systems. I think I heard Schnarch say that... And I don't think this is an actual statistic, I think he was just making a point, which was, in a good relationship, sex makes up about 10% of what you think about and care about, but if the sex is bad... No, if the sex is good, then it's about 10% what you think about and care about. If the sex is bad, it's 90%, or non-existent. And so, I'm thinking about that in light of what you just said and wondering, okay, for people listening who are in this place where they're like, "Okay, well, I'm not connecting with my partner erotically. Should I be going to a sex therapist? Should I be going to an EFT therapist to work on my safety? Should I be... " I could feel... I can feel confusion there, around, what do you do, practically? 'Cause so many people might see like, "Oh, you're not having sex? Well, then, let's talk about sex." Others might say, "You're not having sex? Well, that's a symptom of so many other things going on in your relationship, so let's talk about the other things, and we'll talk about sex later." Keith Witt: Well, first of all, go to a good couples therapist who understands eroticism. It doesn't matter what system they're operating in, if they're a good therapist, a good couples therapist, experienced and know how to attune, and have the things that I mentioned, those qualities, and understand eroticism. One of the reasons that Schnarch says that is that, in general, human consciousness goes where the pain is. We have a half-dozen sex drives, we don't just have one, we have lots of them. And so, if one of those sex drives is activated in a negative way, say jealousy, that's a lot of pain. Say frustration... Frustrated... This happens a lot with guys after the first baby is born. A baby is born. Okay, their wife kinda gets over the birth, and he finds her utterly adorable and desirable. Yeah, this is adorable and she's in love with his kid, she's full of love, "We're sharing this thing," and he wants to have sex. She's in love with the kid, she's got follicle-stimulating hormone up the wazoo, her desire is down, biochemically. If she doesn't have a commitment to re-establishing their love affair, then he's in pain. Keith Witt: And so, what does he do? He makes jokes about it, and there's all these bazillion jokes about men wanting more sex, mothers with small children, and guys... Women don't want to have sex. And these are hostile jokes and these separate people. And, in general, three years after the birth of the first baby, according to the Gottmans' research, 70% of couples are doing worse. But what if you teach them about affection and eroticism and sensuality and say, "You need to sustain this after the birth of the first child. You need to both be onboard with it." Well, if you teach them that, then three years later, 70% of them are saying, "Yeah, we're actually better as lovers." Now, you need... In my experience, that's useful information for me to have, as a couples therapist. Keith Witt: And it's useful for me to know the parameters of that. Just like it's useful for me to know about psychopathology. You know, if somebody has some kind of trauma thing or a personality disorder or some kind of debilitating or God knows, you know, bipolar. That kind of stuff. That has to be addressed. That really has existence. You go to a therapist that has a general understanding, and is good with sexuality in general. I don't know if I'd want to go to any couples therapist who didn't understand the principles of sexuality, and the sex drives, and the stages of sexual bonding, whether I was working on sex or not. It's such a central part of the life stages of a relationship, you know. You don't just have one marriage, you have many marriages. And there's different demands at each developmental level of marriage. And you want to be true to those demands and help each other with them, and good couples therapists all do that. Whether they do it consciously or unconsciously doesn't really matter, you know. They do it. Because, they're inside the universe of these couples helping them grow. And they discover these blocks, and they have their own orientation to help people through them, and help people into deep inter-subjective, into love with each other. Keith Witt: And so, that's... All good couples therapists can attune. They all interrupt people all the time. 'Cause you gotta interrupt toxic patterns, and they all have some sense of what a positive pattern is. You know, all couples therapists suspend their ego in service of their clients. If you have too much ego in the session, you lose your capacity to help people. All good couples therapists are willing to share their clients' pain. All good couples therapists tell vivid enough stories, have vivid enough metaphors that they register, they land with people. They're bringing their best selves into the work, so that's... If you took anybody from any system and saw them work, and they were effective, you'd see that in my opinion and so, that's their natural healing style. And, you know, you keep expanding that and after a while... And what breaks my heart about this is since people resist change, there are hundreds, maybe thousands of natural healing styles in existence being embodied by great practitioners, that we'll never find out about. Because, you know, there's a resistance in the field to new systems. And these people don't have as much... I don't advocate much for any of my systems. Keith Witt: As a founder, I haven't like pushed to make one of my systems famous. Okay, well, that means a lot of people haven't encountered a bunch of my systems. Okay. Well, that's kind of a weakness in my approach as the founder, really. Because if I want to make an impact, I should go out and beat drums about my systems and I don't. I go, "Well, yeah, I like my systems but the other ones are great too. Use the one that... Study the ones that turn you on. Turn that and have that enhanced and expand your natural healing style." What lights me up is people doing that. And if they want to use my system, if they like it, of course, I get a little ego rush from that, sure. That's great. [chuckle] Everybody likes to be told they're great, you know. [chuckle] Neil Sattin: You're great, Keith. [laughter] Keith Witt: Yeah, there you go. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and... Keith Witt: Well, I'm actually a little embarrassed, but you know, I often do if my clients compliment me extravagantly, I'll get embarrassed. Partly because of the transference stuff, you know. Okay, so people go through stages, and partly because, I'm uncomfortable with my ego. I don't want it to show up in my session. Anyway. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking of something you said earlier about systems that maybe do or don't actually handle mental health all that well. That there's, you know, a lot of these systems work well in the context of someone isn't suffering with major depression, or borderline personality disorder and that made me think of certain modalities that are helpful with that. Like in particular, what came to mind was Internal Family Systems, Dick Schwartz's system, and... Keith Witt: I love that. Neil Sattin: And there's been an evolution of that intimacy from the inside out which is basically applying Internal Family Systems to couples therapy. Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: And that Toni Herbine-Blank, she's been here on the show to talk about that. This is something that I feel particularly connected to, is this question of how we, in a relationship, actually show up for each other to help heal. 'Cause I don't think that there are many people in our world that have escaped some form of trauma or another. I think we all have like places where we're wounded or where we don't want to go. We're talking about all of these systems in many ways from the perspective of going and seeking help, which I definitely encourage you to do. It's a good idea to go and, as Keith was talking about a little while ago, to have that outside perspective until you're really good at getting outside perspective on your own. Neil Sattin: But that being said, I like those modalities because the more conscious I think you get of how you heal from trauma, so I'm thinking of, yes, Internal Family Systems, somatic experiencing, the things that really enable you to identify what's happening within you, both your body awareness and how you attune to your body, but also what Dick talks about in Internal Family Systems, literally identifying the different personalities in you who are competing and at war, he calls them parts. Keith Witt: Yes. Neil Sattin: And then you can bring those dialogues into your conversations with your partner. Then I think there is a lot of potential through that, through co-regulation to actually heal with each other. But I don't know about any studies that show that that's going to be curative if your partner has depression, for instance, but I do have a pretty strong belief that that's going to help you show up in that relationship in a way where you're still feeling connected and you're in integrity. Keith Witt: There are studies that show that it is curative to expand into your intimate relationship, your family relationships, and your social relationships to be curative with depression, just like there are many studies, overwhelmingly, that show that exercise is a better anti-depressant than any drug. So, that's all true. And your central point, I think, is huge, and that central point is when a couple has mobilized to, one, have compassionate self-observation of both their healthy and unhealthy sides. In my Shadow Light book, I talk about growing your shadow, and that our unconsciousness is constantly giving us constructive and destructive messages, and that we have resistances, defenses against being aware of them, and to the extent that we do that, we have problems with ourselves and in relationships with other people. Because, let's face it, the more intimate you are with yourself, which is having compassionate awareness and acceptance of yourself and self-regulation, the more able you are to be intimate with other people. So, that's just how it works, ask any therapist, any couples therapist. Keith Witt: And Dick Schwartz's approach is wonderful in that, one, he develops... You'll notice there's always a compassionate witness observing these inner parts, okay? Just like meditation increases the capacity of the compassionate self-observation, the witness, as we say in the wisdom traditions, so do these systems that look at these inner parts. Because if I'm looking at inner parts, who's looking? The compassionate witness is looking, and awareness regulates. So, as I'm looking at these parts and I'm identifying the constructive and destructive ones, already I am unconsciously up-regulating the constructive ones, down-regulating the destructive ones. Okay, that's a great language, and it's nonjudgmental, but it's very, very powerful. Now, say you do that with your partner. Instead of taking offense when your partner says something nasty, you go, "Wow, that was that nasty sub-personality." And you go, "Whoa, that was kind of nasty." And they go, "Ooh, that was my nasty self, I'm sorry." Now, at that point, the nasty self isn't in charge. The compassionate witness is in charge regulating the nasty self and now bonding with that partner, and they are collaborating to help shape each other to be their best selves. Keith Witt: When you get to that point with a couple that are doing that with their friendship, their love affair, and their capacity to repair injuries, that's a self-sustaining system that creates the great relationships. And you see the great relationships, you see that, it's called the Michelangelo Effect, it's been studied, and people, they end up talking more like each other, and looking more like each other. But even more, they get up... Long-term couples will tend to get happier with each other because they're receiving influence to be better. And it takes a lot of courage and a lot of openness to receive influence, and a lot of self-regulatory capacity, and that always runs from some kind of compassionate witness, and all the systems encourage that. They all have their different names for it, but if you don't have that, then you're kind of left with raw behaviorism. And if you do have that, which most of us do, or formal operational or post-formal operational. Keith Witt: Having that compassionate witness be more robust gives us more options, response flexibility and interpersonal neurobiology, they would say. And response flexibility isn't random. I want to choose the healthy responses, which support love and support health and I want to say no to the unhealthy ones. But I have to be aware of them, I have to be able to regulate them. That's where Allan Schore comes with regulation theory, that's where Harville Hendrix. His systems basically force people to self-regulate because they can't go into their fight patterns 'cause he's given them different patterns to do. Keith Witt: And so, probably the power of this system is as much by not allowing people to do their hostile patterns as it is giving them new patterns, and I think that's true for Dick Schwartz too in Internal Family Systems, and it's especially useful in trauma because we get overwhelmed with trauma. So, anything that causes us to observe trauma without being overwhelmed, whether it's somatic re-experiencing, EMDR, Internal Family Systems, all those things are drawing from the same well in terms of helping us be aware and regulate and then attach and then connect, love other people and be loved by other people. These are the things that the affective systems have in common. Like, practical mythological, somebody might do better if they see themselves at a particular stage of the Hero's Journey. Great, I love the Hero's Journey, I'm all over that, I've been studying it all my life and practising it. Keith Witt: Somebody might do great in seeing, "Well, I have this destructive... An Internal Family Systems thing. One of my firemen is just driving me crazy by giving me all these impulses to regulate myself in unhealthy ways." You go, "Oh, yeah." But he wants that fireman and he wants to feel better and what's a healthy way to feel better? Oh, now, I'm going to these other selves. Okay, these deeper ones. Oh, and here's this injured self that just really never felt good and still doesn't. Oh, well, we need to love that self until it begins to feel like a legitimate person who's in pain. When that begins to happen, say a childhood injury, most people hate that little kid who was abused, if you had early abuse. Once you start loving that kid who was abused, feeling the pain but loving him, saying, "Hey, look, it wasn't your fault they molested you or beat you up," things change, there's more freedom of motion and you can love better. Neil Sattin: Right. And this goes straight to the strengths of a system like EFT, and that's based around attachment and why it's so important to recognize the bonding, the safety, the ways that you are trying to regulate your safety in relationship. And if you're not conscious of that, how the ways you do it are probably going to be jeopardizing, ultimately, the safety of your relationship, even though, ironically, you're trying to keep yourself safe in those moments. Keith Witt: Yes, and now here's the paradox of the whole attachment stuff. The attachment theory just kind of blew the lid off of the developmental orientation. People have been resisting psychoanalytics... The cognitive behaviorists, the cognitive therapists have been resisting for decades the psychoanalysts' assertion that infancy and early childhood really matter. Well, attachment theory showed that it really does, that we do get set up for secure and insecure attachment, and that there's elements of that that go all the way to the adult attachment industry that the researchers in Berkeley, I forget their name... Mary Main came up with. Yes. Keith Witt: Now, there's a little switch here because that attachment has to do with mother/infant attachment. Okay, now, we go on to couples and then we gotta add that sexual component. Adding that sexual component to secure attachment is tricky. I really don't want to be having to be secure with my wife exactly the way I was secure with my mom. I want to have elements of that, but there's not a lot of eroticism there, or hopefully there isn't, and if there is, there's more problems, that would be more complicated. And so now we have to add that erotic component. Now that erotic component has a lot of other elements in it. It has adventure, it has transgression, it has change, it has whoever we discovered we are from a gender standpoint or whoever we discover we are in terms of our own kinks, whatever our culture told us about our sexuality, whether it's good or it's bad. Keith Witt: People discover their sexuality, and if they're lucky, the culture says, "Oh, that's fine sexuality." Say you discover you're a heterosexual g

If you missed part one and part two, I encourage you to check these episodes out first as it gives to the foundation for today’s conversation. In a relationship, it is easy to focus on what our partner is doing that isn’t working or is problematic. Yet, at the same time, we often overlook the ways in which we contribute to the problematic pattern. How often do we ask the question, “How lovable am I being right now?“ In part one and part two, we discussed tips 1 through 7. Today we will address tips number 8 through 14. (Please listen to the podcast episode or read the transcript to hear explanations, stories, and examples.) HOW TO BE MORE LOVABLE – PART THREE 8. Be Authentic, Genuine and Sincere The word “authentic’ and the word “author” come from the same origin. If you have the tendency to please your partner, you run the risk of losing yourself. Do your best to take a moment and connect with what is true for you before discussing options with your partner. 9. Be Values-Driven, which Promotes Personal Integrity Know what your highest values are in your life (i.e. making a difference, health, family, security, fun, relationship, etc.). This will help you prioritize what matters most for you in your life, even when it might not be easy, convenient or fun. Do your best to follow through with your agreements, and when you run into an issue, renegotiate the agreement with your partner. Consistency over time builds trust. Be accountable to yourself. 10. Set Boundaries When you are authentic and connect to your values, your boundaries will be much more clear. Having boundaries helps you show up more fully with your partner. Setting limits helps your partner know, love and care for you more. Each person’s needs are equally important in the relationship. 11. Listen, Deeply Listen Listening sounds basic enough, but so often we get wrapped up in a “me, me, me” attitude without even realizing it. Deeply listening offers a huge gift to your partner, where they can feel heard and seen. 12. Communicate Communicating positive things and in a positive way is important for the warmth and connection in your relationship (i.e. sharing the good news, expressing positive regard with kind eye contact and smiles). Slow down. Be present. Allow your partner to have an influence on you. Start-up a difficult conversation in a gentle way. Identify, acknowledge, and share your feelings. Check out assumptions, worries, and fears. 13. Be Grateful Being in a state of gratitude is thought to be one of the highest vibrational states. Cultivate gratitude. Develop a practice that helps you remember to be present to what is good and valuable in your life. 14. Keep It Fresh Change it up. Do something unexpected, Learn something new together. Change and learning give you and your partner an immediate feel-good neurochemical boost. Be creative and get outside of your comfort zone. MENTIONED: EPR 167: How To Be More Lovable In Relationship (podcast) ERP 168: How To Be More Lovable In Relationship – Part Two (podcast) Time Warrior, by Steve Chandler (book) Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch (book) Intimacy & Desire, by David Schnarch (book) How to stop screwing yourself over by Mel Robbins (Ted Talk) Dr, Dan Seigal (website) Playback Theatre (website) Photo by Savs on Unsplash TRANSCRIPT: Click on this link to access the transcript for this episode: If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. Thank you! ❤ If you are interested in developing new skills to overcome relationship challenges, please consider taking the Connected Couple Program or engaging in relationship coaching work with me.

It is wonderful to see that in business we are moving more towards embracing emotional intelligence and that the psychological safety of people in the workplace is a key component to more profit. However, with the move towards more feelings sensitivity, there may be some unexpected downsides. This type of environment could make it easier for covertly aggressive people to avoid detection and promote their win at all costs agendas! There are individuals who employ any tactic available to keep themselves in a position of advantage over others. They do not have self-esteem issues, little self-doubt and little consideration for what others will think of their behaviour. The idea that people will keep away from conflict unless they absolutely have to doesn't apply here. This episode is inspired by some of the work that is emerging through such people as Dr George Simon author of In Sheep's Clothing, Dr David Schnarch author of Brain Talk and Psychopath Free by Jackson MacKenzie. A more expanded understanding and approach to fundamentally aggressive people is needed not only for the victim's but for the effective management of the different aggressive types too.

David Schnarch is a world-renown sex and marital therapist. Eli sits down with David and talks about his career and influence on the field. He discusses how failures led him to come up with the crucible approach, and the revolutionary idea that sexual problems are predictable and normal. He considers the essential qualities a therapist should have to effectively practice sex therapy, touching on how his own openness enables his work. David shares his biggest influences and makes a surprising prediction of the path of the next innovation in systemic therapy. Finally, he talks about his next project of utilizing brain-based therapy with high-risk couples.

Thank you for listening to Mormon Sex Info. This episode is an archived episode and is only now becoming publicly available. Mormon Sex Info relies on contributions. To contribute, please visit:  mormonsex.info Please enjoy the episode. Natasha Helfer Parker interviews Kristin Hodson, LCSW, CST regarding the common use of the term "porn" or "sex" addiction within our Mormon culture. They cover limitations and issues when individuals, spouses, leaders or professionals pathologize unwanted sexual behavior - as well as cover more sex-positive approaches that are more likely to lead to the sexual health all parties are interested in achieving. Kristin Hodson is an LDS Certified Sex Therapist and has contributed to many media resources such as: Sheknows.com, Woman’s Day Magazine, and The Deseret News. She has been a regular contributor on the Radio From Hell show on x96 taking live calls on sex and intimacy, has appeared on KSL’s Studio 5, and has been a monthly guest on KUTV 2 morning news. She is the Founder and Executive Director of The Healing Group, where she offers many workshops and services regarding women's health and sexuality, and co-author of the book Real Intimacy: A Couple's Guide to Healthy, Genuine Sexuality.   Links to resources that are covered during the podcast:   https://www.thehealinggroup.com The Healing Group https://www.amazon.com/Real-Intimacy-Couples-Healthy-Sexuality/dp/1462110525/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455249226&sr=8-1&keywords=real+intimacy+by+kristin+hodson Real Intimacy: A Couple's Guide to Healthy, Genuine Sexuality by Kristin Hodson, Alisha Worthington, and Thomas Harrison https://www.aasect.org AASECT https://www.amazon.com/Passionate-Marriage-Committed-Relationships-Paperback/dp/B00BSZTRU0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455251852&sr=8-1&keywords=passionate+marriage Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Uncomfortable-Book-About-Relationships/dp/0060898763/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455259946&sr=8-1&keywords=the+truth+by+neil+strauss The Truth by Neil Strauss https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/10/recovering-from-the-trap-of-pornography?lang=eng" Recovering from the Trap of Pornography by Elder Dallin H. Oaks Expanding Sex Therapy and Gina Ogden Mormon Porn Project 

I invited Jessa to be a guest on the show because I think it’s important to talk about topics that can be hard to talk about.  For women, sex seems to often fall into this category of somewhat “taboo” topics.  I was curious about the courage it takes to work on issues of sexuality, and about how our sexual wellbeing may be related to our overall self-expression and happiness. Since I let my curiosity drive this show, along with the questions and insights of my clients and community, I wanted to explore sex and how it impacts our lives.   We talk about: 5 KEY factors that have our sex lives fall apart The sexual avoidance cycle — how to find your way back Sex is primal — so what happens when it’s not going well? Grief, loss, and your sex life Myths about sex Difference between sex and intimacy How are we doing with sex ed these days? #Metoo and consent More about Jessa: Jessa Zimmerman is a licensed couples’ counselor and nationally certified sex therapist. Her work focuses almost exclusively on helping couples with their emotional and sexual intimacy. Zimmerman has treated hundreds of couples who have struggled to feel sexual desire and fulfillment. She specializes in helping couples who find that sex has become stressful, negative, disappointing, or pressured. She educates, coaches, and supports people as they go through her 9-phase experiential process that allows them real world practice in changing their relationship and their sex life. Zimmerman received her Master’s in Psychology from LIOS college of Saybrook University and Sex Therapist certification from the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists (AASECT). She has done extensive training in couples’ therapy, with a focus on Crucible® Therapy with Dr. David Schnarch. She is the host of the Better Sex Podcast and has appeared on numerous other podcasts as an expert guest. She hosts the Sex, Intimacy & Relationships group on Facebook and broadcasts live on a regular basis. She lives in Seattle with her partner and youngest child of three. Take Jessa’s FREE “sex health quiz”: www.sexhealthquiz.com Listen to her podcast or learn more about her work: www.jessazimmerman.com www.bettersexpodcast.com Other Resources Mentioned: Emily Nagoski’s book: “Come As You Are” EP 10 How to Have a Better Marriage or Partnership

Margaret Dawson is the Vice President of Portfolio Product Marketing at Red Hat. A 20-year veteran in the tech industry, she was recently the 2018 Women in IT USA winner as well as the Business Role Model of the Year for the United States. With a background on traditional communication, Margaret has led teams of all sizes - from startups to Fortune 500 companies such as Microsoft, Amazon, and HP. Keep Reading >>   Margaret joins me today to share the significance of setting strong boundaries and the relevance of “letting your light shine.” She discusses how she established clear boundaries and expectations in high-performing work environments and shares behind-the-scenes stories of how she balanced the demands of her career and home life. She also shares the role that vulnerability, openness, and honesty play in the trajectory of your career as well as the importance of having different types of support in the development of your leadership skills and the kind of leader that you are going to be.       “The greatest power comes when you fully let your unique light shine.” - Margaret Dawson       Today on the Fierce Feminine Leadership Podcast:   Her childhood experiences that shaped her character, work ethic, and the leader she ultimately became How to be a more compassionate leader Her definition of “power” and its impact on career success Why it is your responsibility to help the future generation find their light and power Where true confidence comes from How to squash your limiting beliefs Key shifts she made in the course of her career How her Amazon experience changed the trajectory of her career and business perspective How the pivots in her career allowed her to take in a much broader view of leadership, management, and life itself The crucial role that curiosity plays in producing amazing products and companies What “socializing ideas” means and its impact on product creation and the health of the organization How to keep your ego in check as a leader and still use your experience to help others be successful Why boundary setting is very crucial The effect of letting others dictate where your boundaries should be     Margaret Dawson’s Top 3 Success Tips for Women:   Figure out what’s important to you and what you’re passionate about. Let your light shine to everyone. Be willing to try new things and take on new challenges. Forgive yourself - and others.     Fierce Leadership Quotes:   “Power, to me, is when you are harnessing all the goodness that is YOU.” - Margaret Dawson “The greatest thing you can achieve as you lead is experience with humility.” - Margaret Dawson “You are grounded in who you are so that other people’s perceptions do not change your own perception of who you are or what you do.” - Margaret Dawson     Resource Mentioned:   Intimacy and Desire Book by Dr. David Schnarch         Join the Exclusive Incubator Program!   Are you ready to build, leverage, and scale your business to the next level? Ready to maximize your leadership skills and grow your business to 7-figures and beyond? Join our Incubator Program - the 12-month high-octane program that blends leadership strategy, accountability, and business building support to help you propel your business to the next level and increase your earning power. Head over to EleanorBeaton.com to learn more about The Incubator Program and submit your application today!     Dial-Up Your Impact, Influence, and Income in 2019       Are you ready to take your leadership and influence to the next level in 2019? Join the Impact & Influence Leadership Lab for Women with Eleanor Beaton – the world’s premier leadership training and implementation program designed specifically for female leaders! This is an 8-week mentoring program for professional, ambitious women in business who are ready to take their leadership skills to the next level and truly step into their power. Visit the Leadership Lab for Women website to see all of the amazing content, tools, and services you will receive by registering today to claim your seat at the table!      Love the show? Let us know! Are you a fan of the Fierce Feminine Leadership Podcast? If the tips and interviews we share in each episode have helped you gain the confidence and inspiration to become a better, more powerful leader, head on over to iTunes, subscribe to the show and leave your honest review to let us know! Each month, one lucky podcast reviewer will be selected to receive a free coaching session with me – Eleanor Beaton! What are you waiting for? Head on over to iTunes, subscribe and leave a review to enter your name into this month’s drawing!    And, if you really want to ramp up your fierceness… Reach out to us for a free 30-minute Bold Women in Business Makeover Session with me or one of the fabulous coaches on my team! Explore your path and discover how you can be the fiercest lady-boss possible. Visit EleanorBeaton.com/discover.  

Trigger Warning! You may find the content of this Episode confronting to hear, listener discretion advised. Empathy is a survival skill. Having awareness of the feelings of others can be really helpful for keeping oneself alive. However there is mostly a focus on prosocial empathy where I am aware of your feelings and respond to them in a sympathetic manner. Antisocial empathy is a different kettle of fish altogether. If I am to deliberately exploit you then it stands to reason that I must be able to track to some degree the way you are thinking and feeling. The more empathy I have the greater my compassion can be or on the flip side my cruelty.  I have always tended to assume the best in others and that has made me highly vulnerable at times to being exploited both personally and professionally. Dr David Schnarch explains antisocial empathy and some of what is now being discovered in the latest research in his amazing book Brain Talk. This episode is inspired by his work.  Correction in Episode: Robert Titchener - American Psychologist coined the word Empathy in 1909. When we can see the reality of an experience even if it is hard to face, we can truly heal!

When we grow up in family systems that didn't foster and support our right to individuality, we learn that love involves unhealthy fusing. (Eg: When mum was unhappy, everyone was unhappy!) This episode draws from the wonderful work of Dr David Schnarch and in particular his book Passionate Marriage. The episode goes through some elements of unhealthy emotional fusing dynamics and how it leads to couples feeling alienated from one another. This episode is designed to point out some of the exchanges to avoid so that we are able to have a truly wonderful and meaningful connection in our relationships, taking our relational experience to a whole other level!

Irene Fehr joins us again to discuss female libido! Her own personal experience of losing her libido and ending up in a sexless marriage led her to create tools to reconnect to who she is, what she wants, and to gain the skills needed to ask for what she deeply wants — and deserves. She rediscovered her sexual fire, developed the ability to experience deep and fulfilling orgasms, and opened her heart to deeper intimacy and love than she had ever dreamed of — all of which she's here to share with you to help you have the same.She is a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach (CPCC) from the prestigious Coaches Training Institute in San Rafael, CA and a trained sexuality coach with OneTaste. "I blend together a variety of modalities and extensive study of sexuality, especially women's sexuality, Orgasmic Meditation, mindfulness, positive psychology, shadow work, somatic awareness, guided visualizations, and intuitive work to help you remove blocks, rewire your system to feeling sexual desire and create new behavioral patterns that form the foundation to your thriving sex life. My ongoing studies include training in Peter Levine's Somatic Experiencing work, Crucible® Neurobiological Therapy with Dr David Schnarch, Gottman Method Couples Therapy with Drs John and Julie Gottman,immersing myself in neuroscience research around behavioral change, and learning new modalities that will benefit my clients."www.irenefehr.com 

In the Empowered Relationship Podcast episode 110: How To Manage Two Majorly Conflicting Needs In Relationship, I talked about we often get caught in the belief that being in relationship requires us to give over of ourselves in an attempt to seek relationship harmony. Yet, when we do this, we can lose touch with ourselves, our passion, and our desires. David Schnarch in Passionate Marriage talks about “Emotionally fused couples.” He explains that they “are controlled by their connection. They have lost their ability to direct themselves and so get swept up in how people around them are feeling. There’s room for only one opinion, one position, differentiation is the ability to stay in connection without being consumed by the other person. Our urge for togetherness and our capacity to care always drive us to seek connection, but true interdependence requires emotionally distinct people.”   In episode 110, I talked about the importance of holding priority for both needs…autonomy and intimacy in relationship. Yet, we typically do not have a model of how to grow ourselves (autonomy) while growing in relationship (intimacy). Intellectually, we may understand that both needs are important…the need for autonomy and the need for intimacy. But in practice, we struggle balancing these two seemly conflictual needs. Though, the struggle is part of our development. The process of growing, maturing, and evolving us. In episode 110, I also talked about two different approaches in the field of couples work. One is to help the individual become more differentiated. “Differentiation is the process by which we become more uniquely ourselves by maintaining ourselves in relationship with those we love.” By David Schnarch in Passionate Marriage. Through the process of self validation “that’s when you don’t expect your partner to validate or accept what you disclose. You validate yourself as you show your partner who you really are.”  By David Schnarch in Passionate Marriage  The other is to help couples create a more secure emotional connection, so that they can feel more trust, care, and safety within their partnership. This safety allows for more vulnerability and authentic sharing, which in turn creates more connection. The main difference between these approaches is the need for safety in the relationship dynamic. One approach focuses on self-soothing and self-validating, so that a partner can express himself/herself more authentically and vulnerability. This in turn cultivates more passion and connection. While the other approach focuses on creating safety between partners to allow for more vulnerable sharing, which in turn creates more intimacy and connection. Through my dissertation research, I speculated that it may be important to first create a solid, safe foundation in relationship to then take more risks of self-expression and self-validating. While these two approaches are different in their focus, they have several similar aspects. Let’s address the desire to feel seen, understood and validated. We all want to feel accepted, loved, and valued for who we truly are. Yet, the path of seeking validation can be fraught with great difficulty. “We’re driven by something that makes us look like we crave intimacy, but in fact we’re after something else: we want someone else to make us feel acceptable and worthwhile….Once we realize that intimacy is not always soothing and often makes us feel insecure, it is clear why we back way from it.”  By David Schnarch in Passionate Marriage It may be important to note there is a subtle difference between the intention to seek intimacy verses to seek validation. Seeking validation is more about approval and okayness. (Please listen to the podcast episode or read the transcript to hear more explanations, stories and examples.) IS IT OKAY TO WANT VALIDATION FROM YOUR PARTNER? If you do not know you are worthy and acceptable, it may be incredibly healing to have your partner remind you of your goodness. AND are you continuously relying on your partner’s validation to source your self-esteem? Or are you doing your inner work to grow yourself? To answer the question “Is it okay to want validation from your partner?,” it may be important to look at a few aspects within yourself first. These questions address HOW you are going about seeking validation and seeking intimacy: Are you wanting your partner to be responsible for your experience? (“You didn’t agree with me. I feel small and inadequate. It is your fault that I feel insecure. Can you see how you made me feel low?”) Or are you clear that you are seeking validation? (“I am feeling a lot of self-doubt. Can you help me? Would you be willing to point out some strengths that I might be overlooking about myself or the situation? (ownership) Are you willing to look at your discomfort and pain to have greater understanding of what your issue is about? Asking yourself what gets brought up in you in this situation, may help you see with is going on at the core. If you do not look within, you are likely going to miss a great opportunity to learn something powerful about yourself and you will probably project on your partner. And your partner will not have an opportunity to really be with you and connect with what is real within you. (vulnerability) Are you willing to let your partner really see you fully? Usually, we want our partner to look at what they did wrong to hurt or offend us. It is a much more vulnerable thing to look at why this is a tender spot for you or what insecurity it brings up in you, AND then to share it with your partner. (transparency) “Well-differentiated people can agree without feeling like they’re “losing themselves,” and can disagree without feeling alienated and embittered, They can stay connected with people who disagree with them and still “know who they are.” They don’t have to leave the situation to hold onto their sense of self.” By David Schnarch in Passionate Marriage 4 KEYS TO SEEKING VALIDATION AND INTIMACY: 1. Safety 2. Ownership (Responsibility) 3. Vulnerability (authenticity) “Vulnerability here does not mean the act of being weak or submissive. To the contrary, it implies the courage to be yourself. It involves uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And that is why it might seem scary.”  By Emma Seppälä in Why Being Vulnerable Is The Key To Intimacy  4. Transparency: “The truth is that when we allow ourselves to be completely open and vulnerable, we benefit, our relationships improve, and we may even become more attractive. “We are actually drawn to people who are real and down-to-earth,” says Brown. “We love authenticity and we know that life is messy and imperfect.” Why do we love children so much? Why are we drawn to people who act themselves? Because we feel an intrinsic comfort in the presence of authenticity. Moreover, someone who is real and vulnerable gives us the space and permission to be the same.” By Emma Seppälä in Why Being Vulnerable Is The Key To Intimacy  PRACTICE STEP: How can you would will one of the 4 Keys this week (safety, ownership, vulnerability, transparency? MENTIONED: Passionate Marriage (book) Brené Brown (website) Why Being Vulnerable Is The Key To Intimacy By Emma Seppälä  What Does The Development Of Intimacy Look Like In Relationship? (article) Photo by Zoran Zonde Stojanovski on Unsplash TRANSCRIPT: Click on this link to access the transcript for this episode: ERP 111: Is It Okay To Want Validation From Your Partner? [Transcript] If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. Thank you!  If you are interested in developing new skills to overcome relationship challenges, please consider taking the Empowered Relationship Course or doing relationship coaching work with me.

Do you aim to please your partner or do you aim to express yourself authentically? Do you give your partner what he/she wants immediately or do you advocate for your desires? With a sensitive topic, do you avoid stating what is real for you because you fear upsetting your partner? These questions address the continual challenge of negotiating our need for individuality (personal needs, desires, dreams) and our need for closeness in relationship (connection and intimacy). TWO CONFLICTING NEEDS: In relationship, we often feel as though we only two options; 1) go along with your partner’s preferences 2) exert your preferences. (Please listen to the podcast episode or read the transcript to hear more explanations, stories and examples.) AIMING TO PLEASE: When the priority is all about accommodating our partner, we can lose connection with ourselves. We may lose integrity with what is real individually. We may not express our authentic needs, desires, and preferences because we are afraid of: being rejected (being seen as “too much,” “inappropriate,” or “not okay.”) looking silly or being embarrassed. conflict (i.e our partner not wanting what we want or not liking what we shared). upsetting our partner. feeling alone. feeling disconnected. feeling abandoned. With pleasing and prioritizing our partner, we can run into these challenges as well: When our partner is not happy with our attempts to please, we can feel hurt, misunderstood, and/or not good enough. Our partner can begin to expect us to give over freely and easily, and/or we can feel pressured too put our partner first (or that putting their needs first is “the right thing to do”). Our partner’s happiness becomes a measure of our performance – or how well we are doing as a partner. This begins to feel like “If my partner is upset, I am not okay.” or “If my partner is happy, we are good.” FUSION FANTASY: Excerpt from Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch, about the concept of “fusion fantasy” (from page 56), which is “the fantasy of two (or more) bodies appearing to be controlled by a single mind – as of we’ve given up our separate identities and become part of a larger oneness.” “Fusion fantasy” reminds me of the phenomenon “Groupthink.” Google’s definition of groupthink is: the practice of thinking or making decisions as a group in a way that discourages creativity or individual responsibility. “Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.” Wikipedia Partners who have been caught in the pattern of suppressing their individual or creative selves in relationship to avoid conflict will typically get to a point where they feel stuck, frustrated, and dissatisfied. Their relationship does not represent them and does not feel like what they expected or planned for. Culturally, we often get the message that if we find “the one” things will flow and be easy, as if this route of self-sacrifice leads to relationship bliss.  However, this is not the case. In fact, continual self-sacrifice in relationship leads to many issues. “Fusion Fantasy” leads to: protecting the status quo, which gives the illusion of safety. staying in the comfort zone and being afraid to take risks. hiding and not sharing, revealing, and being vulnerable. loosing touch with self, and what is meaningful and important. a loss of excitement, passion, and intimacy within the relationship. stagnation and lack of growth and development personally and relationally. TAKING CARE OF THE RELATIONSHIP Attachment theory in adult romantic relationships helps us understand how important it is for partners to feel safe in their emotional connection. Partners need to feel that they can rely on, trust, and turn to each other for care. Partners need to know that their parents will have their back and be there for them. Couples need to feel that their emotional bond is secure and stable. In helping couples create more safety in their emotional connection, the process is not about getting the couple to have the same experience or getting them to be in unison. It is about creating a space space of each individual to reveal their deep, authentic experience more vulnerably to their partner. When this type of sharing occurs and our partner will more likely hear our experience without feeling blamed, shamed or responsible (as you are showing them what is going on for you rather than making it their fault or problem). In turn, our partner’s genuine response will usually be empathic and an expression of desire to help (because they care and can see your pain). SAFETY & GROWTH In my dissertation, couples talked about the importance of commitment to have a safe foundation to grow from. They talked about how the commitment gave them a sense of comfort and security to take risks and explore more freely. Therefore, their commitments were more liberating rather than constraining. They felt the courage and safety to try new things and to be more vulnerable. TAKING CARE OF SELF “Differentiation is the process by which we become more uniquely ourselves by maintaining ourselves in relationship with those we love.” Passionate Marriage, by David Schnarch (page 51) VALUE FOR BOTH: In relationship, we are faced with the task of balancing these two very important and essential needs…autonomy and intimacy. Many people talk about the benefit of balance, and it worth noting that balance is a very difficult state to achieve. We usually have moments of balance, but more often than not we are in a state of seeking balance. Interdependence – having value for both autonomy and intimacy. When a couple dances together in an expressive way, they can flow together, where both people are having fun and contributing to the movement. Both people are individually responsible for their balance and at times may choose to join or even lean on each other in a mutually consensual way. They may also choose to focus on their individual movement at times. All along, they are creating a larger dance together. MENTIONED: Passionate Marriage (book) What Does The Development Of Intimacy Look Like In Relationship? (article) “Groupthink” (Wikipedia) Photo by Boris Smokrovic on Unsplash TRANSCRIPT: Click on this link to access the transcript for this episode: ERP 110: How To Manage Two Majorly Conflicting Needs In Relationship [Transcript] If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. Thank you!  If you are interested in developing new skills to overcome relationship challenges, please consider taking the Empowered Relationship Course or doing relationship coaching work with me.

In this episode, Dr. Carmen Roman Interviews Dr. Maoli who passionately shares her years of knowledge and earned experience through her private practice as well as her own personal life experience. Dr. Maoli helps couples to understand and improve their sexual life by bringing light into the imbedded blockages that might inhibit joy from the couple’s sexual relationship. Dr. Maoli is a clinical Psychologist with a Ph.D and Masters degree in Clinical Psychology. She has a private practice in Los Angeles South Bay area, Torrance, California, specializing in Sexuality, Eating Disorders, and Addictions. Dr. Maoli also hosts her own Podcast “Sexology”. What you will learn in this episode: • Cultural taboos and expectations around sex • Dr. Maoli’s favorite quote: “The real voyage of discovery consists of not having new landscapes, but in having new eyes.” - Marcel Proust • Overcoming frustration in relationships after the sex life becomes monotonous • Rediscovering yourself and your sexuality. Changing perspective regarding sex. • Why is it essential to bring adventure and excitement to our sexual relationship? • Belief systems that impair a joyful sexual life, i.e., shame, sex negative attitude, culture instilled negative image regarding sexuality, lack of presence due to a self-instilled negative body image, sexual assault. • Common problems that couples experience after a few years into the relationship. • What to do to solve some of the common problems such as loss of attraction towards the partner, mismatched libido levels, unresolved sexual disorders • The consequences of lack of communication and openness regarding sexuality. • How does life changes for a couple when they have young age children? • Making the couple’s sexual life a priority after becoming parents • Sex can be spontaneous even if it is scheduled. • Creating emotional and physical attraction by nourishing sexuality through foreplay throughout the day by engaging your partner in the world of fantasy. • When a couple is struggling in their sexual relationship, how does a person brings up the topic of the need to seek external help? • What are some recommendations on approaching the topic about the need to seek help? • A daily habit that contributes to a healthy sexual relationship. • Tips to those starting therapy or the healing journey Recommended Online Resources: • Blog: www.thedirtynormal.com by Emily Nagosky, Ph.D. • Dr. Maoli’s podcast “Sexology” http://www.sexologypodcast.com • Episode Celibacy & Desire where Dr Moali interviews Dr Carmen   Recommended books that provide a good foundation around marriage and sexuality: Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch, Ph.D Come as you Are by Emily Nagoski, Ph.D  To subscribe and listen to more episodes visit: www.emotionsinharmony.com     To contact Dr. Carmen Roman by email:   carmen@armoniaemocional.com   Follow Dr. Carmen Roman at:   Facebook and   Twitter

Cass and Bob interview Rebecca Murphy. Rebecca is a 46 year old white cisgender heterosexual female, married for 28 years and childfree by choice. She was raised in an off-shoot of Mormonism called Temple Lot. In college she left that faith but was swept up into the International Church of Christ, which under the surface of their inspirational Sunday services was a domineering pyramid scheme with all the mind controlling influences of a cult. Before our talk with Rebecca, Cass has a brief conversation with Harry Flook, a 21 year old British photographer and documentarian visiting the states through former guest Gayle Jordan and the Recovering From Religion organization to chronicle how people find a sense of community after losing their faith and leaving the church. If you’ve been following the last several episodes, you will have noticed that I am on a journey that associate with the stage of life in which I find myself, which I’ll describe as mid-life, post-religious, and post-parent. There seems to be a natural rite of passage happening that is not unlike puberty, where it is going to happen whether you like it or not. In the absence of meaning, formerly found in the role of being a parent and/or seeing one’s self within a religious narrative or simply the realization that one has fewer years left to live than one has lived thus far, some realizations begin to enter one’s mind that can serve as a mirror that exposes immaturity in one’s character (at best) or seem pathological at worst. It turns out (at least for me) that a strong sense of self has been kept at bay by the busying narratives in which my life has been immersed, and as the curtain closes on them (my role as a parent, for example, or my role as child of god destined to live eternally in heaven), and that suppressed identity is coming unchained and emerging from the dungeon with a vengeance. But, it doesn’t know how to behave or even walk and is blinded by the sun and atrophied by immobility so nothing about this is homecoming is going to be pretty. In fact, it can arouse deep anxieties, even panic, and hopelessness that can lead to suicidal thoughts. You will hurt and be hurt by those nearest to you. Especially if they’re going through the same thing at the same time. Many marriages are ended by this transition. But I found my hope in a psychological concept founded by Carl Jung and Murray Bowen called “differentiation.” Differentiation of self is one's ability to separate one's own intellectual and emotional functioning from that of one’s family and/or lover. Individuals with "low differentiation" are more likely to become emotionally fused with others—particularly family or lovers. They’re like Siamese twins attached at the hip. And this attachment, that is largely dependent and codendent, can last for years until this awakening happens and you want to go your own way. Any attempt to do so will be taken personally by the person you are fused with. You want to differentiate yourself from them and they say, “why are you doing this to me?” When in fact, you are doing nothing TO them, they are just leaning on you so hard that they hit the floor when you move. People with "low differentiation" depend on others' approval and acceptance. They either conform themselves to others in order to please them, or they attempt to force others to conform to themselves. They are thus more vulnerable to stress and less adaptive to life changes. You may have heard of a healthy H-shaped relationship, where two stand-alone, vertical lines are in relationship, contrasted with an unhealthy A-shape relationship where those lines are leaning on each other. Those with generally higher levels of "self differentiation" recognize that they need others, but they depend less on others' acceptance and approval. They do not merely adopt the attitude of those around them but acquire and maintain their principles thoughtfully. These principles, morals, and ethics help them resist lapsing into emotional reactivity and impulsive thoughts and actions. Thus, despite conflict, criticism, and even rejection, those with greater capacity to "self differentiate" can stay calm and rationally "clear-headed" enough to carefully assess facts, less clouded by emotion. What they decide and say matches what they do. Even when they act in the best interests of a group, they choose thoughtfully, not because they are caving in to group-think. They're more objective observers, more capable of calmness under relationship and task pressures. Confident in their own thinking, they can either support another's viewpoints without becoming wishy-washy; or, they can reject another's opinions without becoming hostile with them, or passively disconnected from them. The ideal outcome here is when two people (beit father and son, or siblings, or husband and wife) both move from an A shape to an H shape, no one falls to the ground. However, if one person is unwilling or unable to do the work—the introspection, the therapy, the communication, the research—all of which are helpful in understanding what the fuck is happening, then they are most certainly going to crash when the other person differentiates. At that point, they have the option to stay on the floor crying, blaming and demonizing the other person…for the rest of their lives, but in so doing, they miss out on this wonderful evolutionary opportunity to grow up and personally develop, and secondly, they destroy a valuable relationship to their own heart. I see this as a key development for those of us who have graduated from religious faith. When we discover that self-debasing doctrines have left us a depleted shell or ghost-like version of our true selves, we have to find them and meet them, maybe for the first time. We have to get to know them, we have to ask them questions, we have to discover what they like and dislike because they’ve been asked. This is the first step of differentiation. The second is learning how to self-soothe and control our own anxieties. Before, we looked to God or others to comfort us. The third is learning to manage our reactivity, or what Dr. David Schnarch calls, “grounded responding.” Religions remove responsibility from people and when they get our from under that tyranny, they find that they’re ability to respond to circumstances and people is undeveloped. They either over-respond in aggression and thoughtless comments, or under-respond in passive aggression, apathy and dis-attachment.   The fourth and last element of differentiation is endurance. Stay in the room with difference. Tolerate some discomfort for the sake of personal growth and the healing of relationships. Toughen up. Grow a pair. Start giving yourself and your loved ones the benefit of the doubt. Don’t be so quick to assume the worst in them. Bounce back after defeat or failure. Ultimately, you know what this is: this is saying yes to what is. This rite of passage is a gift and will reap tremendous benefits in your life and relationships. Like giving birth, if you can survive the pain of transition and the stretching, you will reap a new life. No-sayers want to pretend it’s not happening or that there’s no work to be done here. They may be quick to thrown in the towel or say “there was no hope for that relationship anyway,” which actually may be true, but please, only make that call after exhaustive effort on your part. Know this: there’s nothing wrong with you if you’re going through this. Don’t blame or shame yourself or anyone else. Tenderly welcome your formerly enslaved self into the 21st century, into freedom, and start looking for ways for that beautiful human being to express their self. Teach them they can self-comfort, they can act from their core and not react from fear, and that they have what it takes to finish strong.  Don’t forget: Coming up: Saturday, March 18th the Nashville Nones Convention. it’s an all day event to be held at Unity Church in Nashville tickets are $20 at the door. More info at nashvillenones.com and there’s a link in the show notes.  5 weeks later is ReasonCon in Hickory NC, the weekend of April 21st.  more info is available at reasonnc.com. We taped the conversation with Rebecca Murphy on February 5th, 2017, and the interview with Harry Flook on March 5th. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Our show is available on most podcast platforms.  Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated. Credits: "Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack Johnson The segue music is on this episode was created by “The Barry Orchestra” found at barryorchestra.bandcamp.com Thanks for listening and be a yes-sayer to what is. Differentiation  https://nashvillenones.com/ http://reasonnc.com/ harryflook.com

Wir daten... The one and only Lovedoctor und "freie Liebe"-Expertin MELANIE MITTERMAIER! Diese Folge steht ganz im Zeichen der sexuellen Leidenschaft und wie du anziehender auf deinen (zukünftigen) Partner wirken kannst! Also hophop runterladen und unterwegs anhören! Aber vorher noch die... Themen: Sexuelle Lust und wie Frau diese aufrechterhält Warum fremdgehen keine Todsünde ist Wie du sexuell anziehender wirken kannst Wie du Sexkrisen überwinden kannst Wie freie Liebe wirklich Spaß macht Warum Kommunikation alles ist Welche Beziehungskonzepte es gibt Was Pornos mit deiner Leidenschaft anstellen Shownotes: Melanies Blog Melanies Podcast, da gibt es auch nochmal ein Interview mit uns!

This last weekend I led a class on fostering intimacy in marriage to a group of premarital couples. I love doing this work, but intimacy can be a complicated issue. When we think of intimacy in our culture we often think of sex, or at least physical intimacy to say the least.   But the reality is there are varying kinds of intimacy that are important that a couple take an intentional stance on fostering in their relationship if it is going to be healthy.   So in this episode: I explore the theological underpinnings of intimacy that we see set out in the beginning of the book of Genesis in the bible. I explore the varying kinds of intimacy that make for a healthy relationship. I discuss the keys to fostering these kinds of intimacy. I give several "exercises" that one can practice at home to foster intimacy in their relationship. Resources Mentioned in the Episode As for Me and My House: Crafting Your Marriage to Last by Walter Wangerin Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch

Let’s be real. Most of us love sweet, tender lovemaking. But every once in awhile, we just want to fuck and be fucked. Even leading marriage therapist David Schnarch recognizes the need for fucking in long term relationships. So how do we let go and learn how to fuck like the animals we are? Here […] The post How To Fuck appeared first on Pleasure Mechanics.

This last week I have spent some time talking to you about the Pain Cycle and Peace Cycle in Terry Hargrave's Restoration Therapy model. I love the Pain and Peace Cycle because it has transformed my life. It's transformed me as an individual, as well as my marriage, my relationships, vocation and more. But how do you practice the Pain and Peace Cycle in your own life? To do so I recommended 4 steps to practice. As you begin to use these steps and work through the cycles you create a safe emotional connection which also fosters a real strong sense of "usness" in the relationship. And it is out of this place that couple's can really solve problems. Without a safe connection, problem solving is difficult, if not impossible in a relationship.   In today's episode I want to tie all four episodes together by talking about the concept of differentiation, and giving some examples from different perspectives of what it looks like. In this episode I share the concept of differentiation from some literary writings of Rainer Maria Rilke and Kahlil Gibran. I also look at how renowned sex and marriage therapist David Schnarch defines it. As well as looking at the concept from well known therapist and Rabbi Edwin Friedman.   In this episode I explore: the concept of differentiation Bohemian-Austrian Rainer Maria Rilke's thoughts on differentiation in relationships/marriage Lebanese poet Kahlil Gibran's thoughts on differentiation in marriage Sex and marriage therapist David Schnarch's thoughts on differentiation in committed relationships boundaries and differentiation in the work of Henry Cloud and John Townsend's book Boundaries Paul's words in Galatians 6:2-5 Therapist and Rabbi Edwin Friedman's thoughts on differentiation and leadership.   Resources Mentioned in this PodcastRestoration Therapy Terry Hargrave Marriage Strong Sharon Hargrave Rainer Maria Rilke Kahlil Gibran David Schnarch Henry Cloud John Townsend Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No to Take Control of Your Life Edwin Friedman Galatians 6:2-5 A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix by Edwin Friedman The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran Letters to a Young Poet by Rainer Maria Rilke Passionate Marriage: Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships by David Schnarch

HOW TO GET WHAT YOU WANT IN A RELATIONSHIP These my Empowered Relationship podcast show notes. Be sure to listen to the full episode to hear stories, examples, and more tips. Dr. Corey Allen and I had a great conversation talking about Asking For What You Want & Getting It. Dr. Corey Allen is a husband, father, author, speaker, as well as a Marriage and Family Therapist and a Licensed Professional Counselor with a Ph.D. in Family Therapy. “GROWING UP” IN RELATIONSHIP: Marriage is designed to help us grown up Growth does not have to be a threat We can use experiences (good and bad) as a practice ground “Get out of the harbor” to gain more skill and mastery Dr. David Schnarch and his work for passionate marriages Intimacy & Desire book written by Dr. David Schnarch MIND MAPPING: Predicting what your partner is thinking and what they are going to do Do you allow yourself to be read? GET OUT OF YOUR OWN WAY: Know what you want is okay. Practice self-validation Work with your fear of asking for what you want Asking is half the battle. Our fear is usually worse than reality HOW ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT IN A RELATIONSHIP: Know what you want Give yourself permission to ask Be in the practice of asking DIFFICULT DYNAMICS WE GET INTO IN A RELATIONSHIP: Placating Complacency Subtle manipulation – we all want things a certain way Obligation Expectation MUTUAL RESPONSIBILITY: “Call it out.” You can dramatically change the dynamic in the relationship How important is this to you? See varying levels of desire between partners, as merely a difference Be honest about what you want Be clear about what you want RECEIVE: Be present Breathe Try to enjoy “Let your partner do their job” SUMMARY: Figure out where you get in your own way Get out of your own way Let your partner do their job, while you do your job “Get out of the harbor” MENTIONED: Simple Marriage Sexy Marriage Radio Assume your wife is the most spontaneous, adventurous woman on the face on the planet Her job is to say, “no” to anything that she is not interested in When you do hear “no,” refer back to number one- 3 Simple Rules For Fantastic Sex (For Men) Be sure to check out next week’s topic, How To Clear Issues With Your Partner. If you have a topic you would like me to discuss or a situation you would like me to speak to, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. Thank you so much for your interest in how to get what you want in a relationship. I believe in your relationship success! Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review if you would be willing to click here. Thank you! 

What if our marriage and our sex life was actually part of a process designed to help us grow up? In this episode Shannon and Corey talk more about the idea that marriage is part of a larger process. It’s not just about “Happily Ever After.” Also worth checking out are Dr. David Schnarch’s books, Intimacy and Desire […] The post SMR#183: Marriage is About Growing Up appeared first on Sexy Marriage Radio.

Verlangen und besonders das sexuelle Verlangen in der Partnerschaft kann zu Konflikten führen. David Schnarch hat hier interessante Feststellungen aufgezeigt, die ich in dem Podcast erläutere.The post Verlangen in der Partnerschaft appeared first on Training der Beziehungskompetenz.

Tami Simon speaks with Dr. David Schnarch, a licensed clinical psychologist, certified sex therapist, and clinical member of the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy. David is the author of the books Intimacy and Desire, Passionate Marriage, and Resurrecting Sex, and with Sounds True he has published a two-session audio program called Secrets of a Passionate Marriage: How to Increase Sexual Pleasure and Emotional Fulfillment in Committed Relationships. In this episode, Tami speaks with David about the four drives of sexual desires, his understanding of integrity and its importance in a healthy partnership, and what it might mean to "hold onto yourself" in relationship. (67 minutes)

A Sword in My Hand | Underworld | Magick of Ben Franklin | Living Thelema: Thelema and Relationships In this episode: Intro music: Song of Adoration by A Sword in my Hand: The War-Machine of the Great Beast 666 (Part 1 of 2) by Musical interlude: Underworld by The Magick of Benjamin Franklin by Living Thelema: Thelema and Relationships by Outro music: "Song of Adoration" by [ ] [ ] More Info Information is categorized under the segments in the podcasts which mention the texts or websites. Underworld from the album of the same title by Ascension Conspiracy Complete album and original artwork by the creator now available online. See the facebook fan page for information: "The Magick of Benjamin Franklin" by Beth Kimbell (free online edition) by Stacy Schiff by Aleister Crowley (PDF) "Living Thelema: Thelema and Relationships" by Dr. David Shoemaker by David Schnarch by Aleister Crowley Send your questions to Dr. Shoemaker at Event and publication announcements A new book by Aleister Crowley is due to come out soon from Wordsworth Editions, entitled The Drug and Other Stories. This collection of 49 short stories includes an introduction by William Breeze and David Tibet, and is now available for pre-order. for ordering information. Jul 11, 12-5pm in Seattle, WA: presents his Promulgation Strategies Workshop at Contact for complete information and to RSVP. Sep 17-19 in the Sauerland hills of Germany: Baphomet Rising is the annual convention of Ordo Templi Orientis in Germany, open to all initiate members. See the for more information and contact if you would like to attend. Oct 1-2 in Seattle, WA: Aleister Crowley's Rite of Mercury as a rock opera: If you would like to notify our listeners about an event or publication, or other news pertinent to Thelemites, send the details to us at [ ] [ ] Listener Feedback We encourage all of our listeners to leave us feedback with their thoughts on the podcast. You can leave a comment on this blog, leave us a voicemail message, or send us an e-mail. Phone Leave a message on our voicemail line at 646-402-5688 x 46368 - be sure to mention your name and location! Email Donate to support Speech in the Silence Tune in for Episode 8 when the Sun enters the sign of Leo on July 22, 2010 e.v.