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Dr. Ellen Csepe // #TechniqueThursday // www.ptonice.com  In today's episode of the PT on ICE Daily Show, ICE Older Adult Division faculty member Ellen Csepe demonstrates an example of using motivational interviewing techniques when discussing weight loss with a patient. Take a listen to the podcast episode or check out the full show notes on our blog at www.ptonice.com/blog. If you're looking to learn more about courses designed to start your own practice, check out our Brick by Brick practice management course or our online physical therapy courses, check out our entire list of continuing education courses for physical therapy including our physical therapy certifications by checking out our website. Don't forget about all of our FREE eBooks, prebuilt workshops, free CEUs, and other physical therapy continuing education on our Resources tab. EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION ELLEN CSEPE Welcome to the PT on Ice daily show brought to you by the Institute of Clinical Excellence. My name is Ellen Csepe. I'm a physical therapist. I'm bringing to you live the Technique Thursday and we're going to talk about motivational interviewing today. I'm joined by my co-worker Rachel Jordan. She and I are both physical therapists in Littleton, Colorado. And today what you can expect out of our episode is we're going to talk about what motivational interviewing is, what to look for in our kind of, um, reenacted interview between a patient and a provider and then we're going to kind of sum it up and bring it back home talking about how this case went at the end of the day. So we had an awesome discussion about weight management with one of our patients in the clinic within the last few weeks and I really wanted to share that with you guys. We used motivational interviewing strategies to talk about weight management and truly it was a slam dunk. So today we'll kind of start talking about what motivational interviewing is. So motivational interviewing is basically a counseling technique where we talk about where we invoke out of a patient their own wisdom and their own ideas on how to solve their problems rather than barking at them and telling them what to do. Motivational interviewing is a really powerful technique for providers to really treat patients first like people, then like patients, all while showing them that you genuinely care. This is an excellent strategy to talk about weight, which can be a hugely uncomfortable topic for some providers and patients. So this discussion that we had went super well. Rachel's going to be the patient. I'll be the provider. And what I'd like you to look for in our discussion are four key topics that kind of illustrate the spirit of motivational interviewing. And so those four key topics that really kind of reflect the spirit of motivational interviewing are partnership, acceptance, compassion, and empowerment. So think of it this way, partnership. I want Rachel to leave our session knowing that she has somebody who really, really cares in her corner. Partnership. Acceptance. I'm not gonna look down the end of my nose at Rachel while she's struggling. I'm in her corner and I'm cheering for her. Acceptance. Compassion. I recognize that weight management is really, really hard. From a biomechanical level, from a neuroendocrine level, Weight management is super difficult. So compassion. I see her struggle and I care. And then empowerment. I want Rachel leaving our session like she just won a game of elementary school dodgeball. I want her leaving this session feeling like she has got it made. I want her to leave here feeling like she has a plan, like she's on top. So again, partnership, acceptance, compassion, and empowerment. So we'll go ahead and get into character. So Rachel, I understand that your doctor sent you over to us to kind of check out your ankle. It looks like you had an ankle surgery, but it looks like it's going pretty well. Tell me a little bit more. RACHEL Yeah, I had the ankle surgery not too long ago. I repaired my deltoid ligament. Overall, the ankle's doing pretty well, but ever since, I've had a lot of falls and I'm having a lot of pain and weakness because I keep falling. And, you know, I really think it's a lot to do with my weight, that's why I keep falling. ELLEN It sounds like you're thinking that your weight has been an issue for you in the past. Is this the first time that you've kind of talked about this with a health care provider? RACHEL I've talked a little bit about it with my primary care doctor, but she doesn't really seem to take interest in having a conversation about it. I've asked her about the GLP medications that just came out, because they also have diabetes. She doesn't really seem interested in prescribing them and I just don't feel like I'm really feeling hurt when I go into the doctor. ELLEN That is really frustrating and it sounds to me like you're ready to make some changes. Like you're really eager to change your weight because you know that that's going to be a real stepping stone for you to be healthier in the future. Well, we can definitely talk more about that. So tell me a little bit more about what your history of managing your weight has looked like in the past. How can I help you? RACHEL Yeah, about 17 years ago I had gastric bypass surgery. But ever since, I've pretty much gained all the weight back. And so I'm just really frustrated because nothing has really worked. I've tried all the diets and that's been pretty unsuccessful in losing weight. I'm just feeling really hopeless about how to even go about that or what to do. ELLEN I am so sorry, and I just want you to know you're not the only person. Weight is really hard to manage long-term, and obesity is a chronic disease. Did you know that everything in your biology, after you lose weight, fights to get it back? Your body doesn't know the difference between intentional weight loss and starvation. So I hope you know that you're not the only one. And it can be really hard, but those new medications could be really helpful. It sounds like that's a goal for you, and that's something you've been interested in trying. RACHEL Yeah, I'm definitely interested. I just feel at this point I just need to do something because I'm unable to play with my grandchildren right now because I'm scared of falling and I can't get off the floor because I feel like I'm just really heavy and things. So I'm kind of feeling down about that. ELLEN So it sounds like you're feeling down about that and you're feeling kind of hopeless. Tell me a little bit more about what steps you're taking to manage your mobility. It sounds like It's the weight, but it's also your ability to balance, your strength. All of those things have kind of been keeping you back for the past few years. Tell me more. Are you doing any exercise participation right now? RACHEL No, I don't really like to exercise. I've tried some stuff in the past, but I just don't enjoy it and I feel kind of uncomfortable because I don't know what to do. And I think I just might hurt myself if I try to go. ELLEN That is totally understandable. And I'm sure every exercise attempt that you've had in the past has been to lose weight. Am I right about that? Yeah. And I mean, if you've been unsuccessful in losing weight, I bet exercise could be, feel really like a wasted cause and a lost cause. Yeah. So let's, um, I'd love to challenge how you see exercise because really exercise shouldn't be about punishing your body for what it isn't. It should be helping empower you to do what you want to do. For example, I know that you love playing with your grandkids. Lunges are a really great way to get up and down from the ground. So if you think about it that way, I'm not exercising just arbitrarily to lose weight, but I'm training for grandma duty. RACHEL That's what I really want to look for. ELLEN That's a really great point. It sounds to me like you're ready to make some changes. I have a few ideas that I can offer to you and I want you to tell me what you think. I have a few primary care doctors that I know are really on board with prescribing GLP-1 medications when it's appropriate. If you'd like, I'm happy to send you their names and you can check them out and tell me what you think. Yeah, I think that'd be great. It sounds like your foot is doing great. That's kind of on the back burner of what's important to us. Why don't you and I look at kind of creating an exercise program. to see if we can match what you care about to functional things that you can do in the gym. And if you don't like going to the gym, I can give you a lot of other options, too, to do these exercises at home and still feel like you're really getting a great workout. OK. RACHEL Yeah, I don't say I don't really like going to the gym, but I used to do a swim class, like swim aerobics, and I loved that. That's great. I felt comfortable and, you know, I didn't feel the weight on me. ELLEN Yeah, feeling weightless in the pool, there's nothing like it. And I know, I saw in your intake that you're a scuba diver. I am, I love to scuba dive. That is so cool. I definitely want to get you back into the open water. I bet you love scuba diving for that same reason, just feeling weightless and like you're floating. We've got to get you back into the water. And I know if you felt better about your balance and your mobility, those things would be way more confident. You'd be way more confident in those things. Am I right about that? RACHEL Yeah. Last time I tried to go scuba diving, I actually took a fall before and wasn't able to go because I hit my head. Oh man. And I just ever since haven't really tried again because I've just been a little discouraged about it. ELLEN Oh, I totally get that. That would discourage me too. And it sounds like if you and I have a plan to not just go to the gym mindlessly, but to really say, I'm working for a pragmatic goal to be able to get up and down from the ground, to be able to lift all my equipment, to be able to play with my grandkids. That's far more meaningful than going to the gym to bust out cardio. RACHEL i really feel good about this. I agree. I've never really thought of exercise that way. ELLEN Oh, well I'm so glad that we can kind of reframe how you see exercise because truly exercise isn't punishing you, it's enabling your body to do all the wonderful things that it can do. RACHEL This is awesome. I'm really excited about this. I feel like I have a little bit of hope now that I might be able to play with my grandchildren. ELLEN Well, I hope you know I'm on your team and weight loss and weight management are really tough. And I hope you know that I'm in your corner and I'm here to help you figure this out. RACHEL I really appreciate that. I feel like I finally felt heard today. ELLEN Oh good. So that was almost exactly the conversation that we had in the clinic within the past week. It was a slam dunk. And if I can kind of illustrate how this went further, She came in for an ankle surgery, a deltoid ligament repair, but by the end of the session she left here feeling super positive about the strategies that we discussed. to help manage her weight. And kind of the happy ending to this story is that the patient did get on those medications with her doctor after switching doctors. Her doctor was super old school. She started working with a new doctor and it went super well. It was the perfect medication for her to use. She started exercising regularly at home and she was able to get up and down off of the ground with some skilled training. from our team within a few weeks of this surgery. So I kind of just want to illustrate that this motivational interviewing can be hugely impactful for your patients and in your practice to talk about uncomfortable subjects like weight. The things that we really wanted to look for in our discussion were partnership. Rachel knew that after our session, she and I were on the same team. I was here to help her. Acceptance. I didn't look down the end of my nose and say, well, eat too much and that's why you have obesity or you don't exercise and that's why you're struggling with your weight. She knew that I accepted her for who she is and I saw her journey. So compassion. She knew that I had compassion for this struggle. She knew that I wasn't judging her. I genuinely cared because I genuinely do. empowerment. She left our session having a plan, having a goal, knowing exactly what she was going to do to manage her weight in the future. So thank you guys for joining us on today's Technique Thursday. I'm so glad that you could be here with us and I hope that these motivational interviewing strategies were helpful for you in the clinic. Have a great morning. OUTRO Hey, thanks for tuning in to the PT on Ice daily show. If you enjoyed this content, head on over to iTunes and leave us a review, and be sure to check us out on Facebook and Instagram at the Institute of Clinical Excellence. If you're interested in getting plugged into more ice content on a weekly basis while earning CEUs from home, check out our virtual ice online mentorship program at ptonice.com. While you're there, sign up for our Hump Day Hustling newsletter for a free email every Wednesday morning with our top five research articles and social media posts that we think are worth reading. Head over to ptonice.com and scroll to the bottom of the page to sign up.  

Pictures of hedgehogs and the full transcript can be found at https://bit.ly/3fztLsm. **Suggest a topic or guest by filling out the form https://bit.ly/3MNtPzl, or emailing podcast@measurelab.co.uk to drop Dan and Dara a message directly.** --- Intro [00:15] Topic [03:29] Wind down [42:00] Outro [45:09] --- Quote of the episode from Ellen: "I think people don't realise that disabilities is such a vast group, you can't just bring one person in to resolve all the disability issues. You need to bring people in from, you know, a wide range of different backgrounds in order to understand the complexities of disabilities, because it's not just a kind of a one size fits all approach." Another quote of the episode from Ellen: "Google Analytics 4 seems to be that tiny little bit more accessible in terms of the functionality and where to press and it's a lot more clearer of where to press. However, you still can't use a screen reader, which I found quite astonishing." Yet another quote of the episode from Ellen: "It's quite surprising for a company like Google, especially when you know they're very driven in terms of trying to attract people with invisible differences such as dyslexia and autism and ADHD. They seem to understand the untapped talent that these types of people have, yet then they're being excluded from being able to access Google Analytics, which I find a bit strange. It's like, how are you connecting those dots? It just doesn't make sense to me." --- This week Dan and Dara are joined by Ellen Cole - an award-winning Marketing, PR and Social Media marketer with a focus on inclusivity and accessibility in digital. Ellen discusses their experience working with invisible differences, and how businesses large and small can make positive steps towards making their social media and marketing more inclusive for all. Ellen's website Little Seed Group - https://bit.ly/3DURbBL. KreativeInc Agency - The UK's Leading Web Accessibility Agency - https://bit.ly/3U7gGWm. A video that shows how screen readers read lots of emojis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TyqW25HPDU&t. Understanding the purple pound market from Purple - https://bit.ly/3NxIhxe. UK govenrment Access to Work scheme to get support if you have a disability or health condition - https://bit.ly/3Nw744I. In other news, Ellen looks after hedgehogs, enough said! Follow Measurelab on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/3Ka513y. Intro music composed by the amazing Confidential - https://spoti.fi/3JnEdg6. If you're like what we're doing here, please show some support and leave a rating on Apple, Spotify, or wherever really. The post #59 Digital accessibility in social media and analytics (with Ellen Cole @ Little Seed Group) appeared first on Measurelab.

What You'll Learn From This Episode: How to engage your audience when you do a PowerPoint presentation Learn how to use the technique “tell-and-show” method Tips to present online or on a webinar ​ Related Links and Resources: Check out Ellen's video training called "13 techniques to make designing your slides easy" and it shows these different types of how to use “tell-and-show” in various types of situation, but also some specific techniques in PowerPoint. You can go to www.ellenhelps.me/techniques, that's a redirect to her website www.ellenfinkelstein.com. Summary: Ellen Finkelstein is a PowerPoint MVP. You may not have heard of that because there's only 18 of them in the United States. But that's a very prestigious professional Microsoft Award. Her well-known website is www.ellenfinkelstein.com and she offers many PowerPoint tips in the PowerPoint tips newsletters. She specializes in training speakers and presenters to convert Death by PowerPoint to Life by PowerPoint; communicate clearly and powerfully, and designed high-impact persuasive and professional looking slides. Ellen has done training for Citrix, Brainshark, Disney, Microsoft, Pennsylvania State Education Association, Maharishi International University, State University of New York at Buffalo, State University of Illinois, several law firms and many others. She's done onsite training, one-on-one virtual coaching, training and webinars. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:53 Ellen's ideal Client: My ideal client is a professional who needs to present well, and somebody whose presentation is crucial for his or her success. 2:15Problem Ellen helps solve: I guess we can simply say "death by PowerPoint" but to expand what that means, the problem is that they don't engage their audience so they annoy their audience, they don't give their audience what their wants or needs when they present to them. So, I would say poor oral communication skills. 3:07Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Ellen: It depends on the type of presentation; some are sales presentation, other are training presentation, it could be different types. But in general, if your audience is falling asleep, isn't engaging with you, doesn't respond to your call of action is, then that's a very easy way of knowing. That's a symptom that your presentation is not ideal. One of the tricks is try to find out in advance what the audience needs. It's a really great tip. People who don't speak well, they speak at the audience instead of interacting with the audience. They read from the slides using it as a teleprompter, they add images to decorate the slides instead of using it to enhancing understanding, retention and persuasive impact. 4:30What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding Ellen and her solution: Surveys have shown what people hate most is presenters reading the slides, that will be the most common. 4:53Ellen's Valuable Free Action (VFA): I have a technique or method that I call “tell-and-show” method. It's based on research by Michael Alley, who's a professor in the engineering school at Penn State. He tried different types of presentations and tested different groups of students with them. And he calls it "Assertion-Evidence", his more on science-based and he tells it a little bit snappier. But basically, what it is, is that you use the title of the slide to tell your point. And you use some type of graphic (photo, graph, diagram), whatever it is to show the point. For example, in terms of the telling part of it, you can have chart that shows first quarter sales or down. That might be your point but if you could just say "first quarter sales" and it doesn't tell people anything. But if you say on the top first quarter sales down 20%, then immediately they know what your point is, and they can listen to you and go along as you explain the chart a little bit more. This really helps people understand that.

What You’ll Learn From This Episode: How to engage your audience when you do a PowerPoint presentation Learn how to use the technique “tell-and-show” method Tips to present online or on a webinar ​ Related Links and Resources: Check out Ellen’s video training called "13 techniques to make designing your slides easy" and it shows these different types of how to use “tell-and-show” in various types of situation, but also some specific techniques in PowerPoint. You can go to www.ellenhelps.me/techniques, that's a redirect to her website www.ellenfinkelstein.com. Summary: Ellen Finkelstein is a PowerPoint MVP. You may not have heard of that because there's only 18 of them in the United States. But that's a very prestigious professional Microsoft Award. Her well-known website is www.ellenfinkelstein.com and she offers many PowerPoint tips in the PowerPoint tips newsletters. She specializes in training speakers and presenters to convert Death by PowerPoint to Life by PowerPoint; communicate clearly and powerfully, and designed high-impact persuasive and professional looking slides. Ellen has done training for Citrix, Brainshark, Disney, Microsoft, Pennsylvania State Education Association, Maharishi International University, State University of New York at Buffalo, State University of Illinois, several law firms and many others. She's done onsite training, one-on-one virtual coaching, training and webinars. Here are the highlights of this episode: 1:53 Ellen’s ideal Client: My ideal client is a professional who needs to present well, and somebody whose presentation is crucial for his or her success. 2:15Problem Ellen helps solve: I guess we can simply say "death by PowerPoint" but to expand what that means, the problem is that they don't engage their audience so they annoy their audience, they don't give their audience what their wants or needs when they present to them. So, I would say poor oral communication skills. 3:07Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Ellen: It depends on the type of presentation; some are sales presentation, other are training presentation, it could be different types. But in general, if your audience is falling asleep, isn't engaging with you, doesn't respond to your call of action is, then that's a very easy way of knowing. That's a symptom that your presentation is not ideal. One of the tricks is try to find out in advance what the audience needs. It's a really great tip. People who don't speak well, they speak at the audience instead of interacting with the audience. They read from the slides using it as a teleprompter, they add images to decorate the slides instead of using it to enhancing understanding, retention and persuasive impact. 4:30What are some of the common mistakes that folks make before finding Ellen and her solution: Surveys have shown what people hate most is presenters reading the slides, that will be the most common. 4:53Ellen’s Valuable Free Action (VFA): I have a technique or method that I call “tell-and-show” method. It's based on research by Michael Alley, who's a professor in the engineering school at Penn State. He tried different types of presentations and tested different groups of students with them. And he calls it "Assertion-Evidence", his more on science-based and he tells it a little bit snappier. But basically, what it is, is that you use the title of the slide to tell your point. And you use some type of graphic (photo, graph, diagram), whatever it is to show the point. For example, in terms of the telling part of it, you can have chart that shows first quarter sales or down. That might be your point but if you could just say "first quarter sales" and it doesn't tell people anything. But if you say on the top first quarter sales down 20%, then immediately they know what your point is, and they can listen to you and go along as you explain the chart a little bit more. This really helps people understand that.

Zach chats with Fortune senior editor Ellen McGirt about her journey to writing on race and leadership and what fuels her to do this work, and she graciously details the dynamic of what it looks like for her to talk about these topics with majority-white executive leaders while breaking down how it works for her as a journalist. Ellen's reporting has taken her inside the C-Suites of Facebook, Nike, Twitter, Intel, Xerox and Cisco and on the campaign trail with Barack Obama - check out all of her information in the show notes!Connect with Ellen on LinkedIn and Twitter, and check out her Fortune.com newsletter raceAhead.Follow Fortune on social media. They're on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and man, goodness gracious. Wild times we're living in. I hope that you're washing your hands, keeping your hands off your face, not congregating in groups of more than 10--just chilling really, right? Take care of yourself, take care of your family. I hope that you've been listening to the content that Living Corporate has been putting out regarding just working from home and still maintaining community while working from home. Just taking care of yourself. I'm hoping that you're able to engage in our content, and irrespective of that I'm just hoping that you're safe. You know, we always have conversations on this platform that aim to center and amplify underrepresented voices, and I think that we continue to separate ourselves as it pertains to doing that, right? Like, we're trying to be unapologetic about really amplifying and centering marginalized, underrepresented and underappreciated, underestimated voices at work, and we do this by having authentic, available, candid, transparent--any other words you want to use for real--conversations with all types of people. Authors, writers, professors, activists, executives, recruiters, entrepreneurs, influencers, artists, right? Like, anybody that is passionate about this space, and with that being said, we have somebody on who honestly--and I don't know why I'll always say, "I'm really a fan of this person," but I really am a fan. Like, this person, if y'all--anyway, we'll get into it. Ellen McGirt. Ellen McGirt is an award-winning journalist, senior editor at Fortune Magazine, and covers race, culture and leadership in a daily column for Fortune called "RaceAhead". Make sure y'all check out RaceAhead. We'll talk about that a little bit later, but it's fire. Her reporting has taken her inside the C-Suites of Facebook, Nike, Twitter, Intel, Xerox and Cisco--now, look, those are just a few, okay? 'Cause that's not exhaustive--the campaign trail with Barack Obama--what's up, come on--and across Africa with Bono to study breakthrough philanthropy. In the past, she’s written for Time, Money and Fast Company, where she wrote or contributed to more than twenty cover stories and created the digital series "The 30 Second MBA." Back when the web was young, [laughs]--so that's when Al Gore was, like, you know, like, a little less stodgy. Like, this was earlier. She was the founder of a financial website for women called "Cassandra’s Revenge," and she established similar sites for AOL and Oxygen Media. Y'all, she established sites for--it's crazy, 'cause I'm reading this and I'm like--as if I haven't read this before, but it's just wild when you think about, like, sites for AOL. Like, that's back in the day. You know, some of y'all don't remember. You had to log on, and then, like, the little man would be on the screen, and then, you know, you couldn't be on the computer, and then your mom would be on the phone 'cause--the busy signal 'cause you had dial-up, and you'd pick up the phone and it'd be like *noise*. Anyway, so the point is, like, she's OG. OG in the game. Ellen was the lead editor for Your First Leadership Job, a book published by Wiley in 2015, and she attended Brown University. Ellen, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Ellen: I am exhausted after listening to my bio. My gosh, I've been busy. But so happy to be here, Zach. Thank you.Zach: Now, look, first off we gotta shout you out, because you were one of the first articles that we cited on Living Corporate, "Why Race & Culture Matter in the C-Suite," talking about leading while black. Can we talk a little bit about that piece and your journey on writing in race and leadership?Ellen: 100% we can, 'cause that really kicked off a whole new career development for me. But before we do I have to shout you right back, Zach. I mean, when I stepped into this space of writing about race, particularly for the corporate world, I was stepping into a space where giants already inhabited the world, and you are one of them, and I appreciate you, and I just want to let you know that at moments when I really don't know what to do, what to write, what to think about what's happening in the world, I've got your voice in my head, and you steer me in the right directions, so I appreciate you.Zach: Would you stop? Oh, my gosh.Ellen: That's the thing. But that's also the thing. I know that you know this from doing this work, which is different from, you know, your day job and your home life and it's just a distinct part of what you do, is that when you decide to talk about race and inclusion, particularly in the workplace and what that means in the world, you inherit a whole bunch of people who you didn't know who existed who have been thinking about how to make the world better in this challenging way, and that's the blessing of the work. It really is.Zach, You know, speaking of the work, why do you think so few folks discuss the intersection of race and leadership in major publications? This is not even really an ad for Fortune, right? Shout-out to Fortune. What's up? But, you know, I don't see this a lot. You know, you see pieces from time to time in Harvard Business Review, but I don't think I've seen dedicated spaces for this intersection of race and leadership in white-owned publications. Like, why do you think that is, and what's your fuel for doing this work?Ellen: You know, this leads me right back to your first question. You know as well as anybody who is reading business material or even news magazines or news material that race is just not something people are willing to talk about, are comfortable talking about, and I think for Fortune, which writes for the business audience--and not just any business audience, for a corporate audience--this is not something that had ever been taken on seriously in the corporate world before, and in addition to subscribers, in addition to people showing up at our events, major corporations actually are our advertisers and our sponsors. In many ways, we are paid for by the people that we cover. So it is an inherent tension, and we do have to walk that fine line. I know you and I have talked about this in the past. So imagine my surprise, you know? [laughs] I hadn't worked at Fortune in years. I had left in 2006 and joined a competitor for many, many years, which you mentioned. I had worked on a book. I was sort of looking around for my next act, and I get a ping out of the blue from Cliff Leaf, who is now the editor-in-chief, asking me if I would be willing to write a piece about why there's no black men in the executive pipeline in Fortune 500 companies. So two things leaped to mind. "Oh, my gosh. Of course yes," and the second one is "There really must not be anybody as part of just Fortune's daily lives who felt comfortable writing a piece like this," which reflected just how tentative it all is for everyone. News rooms are not as diverse as they should be. Corporate America isn't. Nothing is as diverse as it should be. So in my first conversation with Cliff--and I have to also shout-out Alan Murray, who's now our CEO--then our president--you know, this is something that people, that they cared about, brought to their attention, as something that would be welcome in the marketplace, and to their credit, two white men stood behind me and said, "We pick you. Let's see what happens," and my conversation with Cliff is this can't just be about data. This just can't be an inspiring conversation with a beleaguered chief diversity officer somewhere,who we all know doesn't get the resources that they need. We need to look at what happens that black men very specifically, from the time they're born, in under-resourced neighborhoods, in neighborhoods without sufficient food resources and with environmental issues, to the time they don't get to the C-Suite. And where are we losing them? We're losing them in school, where they're--under-resourced school or biased treatment, disproportionate treatment while they're in school. We're losing them into the criminal justice system, and we know how that works out. We're losing them through a series of biased decisions and screening mechanisms which are systemic. Hell, if their mothers survive their birth with them we're losing them every step of the way, and that was what that first story was intended to do, was to look at it from that holistic point of view. And Zach, it worked. It almost killed me, but it worked, because, you know, in order to do it I had to take the testimony of men just like you, and some not like you--younger than you, in different stages than you, [?], young men who would never join the corporate world for any reason because they don't trust it--and put that, their pain and their regrets and their pressures and their inability to cope with some of the unique pressures they experience, on full view, and that kicks us off with an opening to have more of these types of conversations in longform and print and in a daily newsletter, which had--to my knowledge--not been explored in this way in any business publication. We were growing a newsletter of business, but it was particularly--it was usually sector-oriented. Like, here's tech, or here's healthcare. You know, those are the kinds of things we tend to gravitate to. "Here's mergers and acquisitions." The exceptions were Alan Murray's CEO Daily, which is about leadership, which is, of course, top of mind news, top of the heap, and Broadsheet, which is for women and [?] corporate women which has inspired me from the very beginning and has turned into literally my sisters in inclusive thinking. Like, really advocating for what would make the workplace better for people who should be there in larger numbers. And it was an accident, it was an experiment, and I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.Zach: Well, you know, it's incredible, and I'ma tell you, like, I read it--and Living Corporate's format back then was a little bit different, but I hope that I gave it justice when I read it on the podcast because it was just--it really resonated with me, and I remember, you know--'cause you were profiling the now-passed on--rest in peace--Bernard Tyson, and I just recall at the time, like, even reading the piece and the way you talked about Mr. Tyson and just his journey, it was almost just like reading, like, about a mythical figure, right? So it meant a lot. It meant a lot to me, and I know it's meant a lot to our listenership. And a little bit behind the scenes actually, that particular episode is one of our most referenced--and that was, like, early. I mean, y'all, this was almost--this was two years ago, right? This was in our first, like, 10 or 15 episodes. This is one of our most downloaded episodes actually, like, to date. So you talked about it--you know, you said the piece, it almost killed you, and you made mention of, like, really, I believe--without putting words in your mouth--you were alluding to the emotional labor of the work. Can you talk a little bit about what it looks like to do the work and, like, how you maintain in really grappling these types of topics day in and day out?Ellen: You know, I am one of many, many people in many professions, for a variety of reasons, who have to look at the human condition. And when you talk about race or gender in particular, then it's also my condition. It's how I have been left out or how my father, who served in World War II in the segregated Army came home and couldn't vote or participate in home ownership programs for other veterans. You know, it's the weight of that. It's the understanding of the history and the extent of it and our unwillingness to examine it without distensiveness. That is just--it weighs so heavily. When I have candid conversations with people like Bernard Tyson, like yourself, like anybody, you feel the weight from them, and I feel a tremendous responsibility to get their story right and to put it in the correct context. The other thing I wasn't expecting though--and again, it's purely sort of the naivety of the journalistic separation, you know, the sense that you've got some sort of distance, was how ugly the world was going to get. At some point I felt like I was still going to rely heavily on, you know, data and surveys and diversity reports and truly inspiring one-on-one conversations with people who are doing the work. I was not expecting Nazis in the streets. I was not prepared for video after video after video after video of people shot by and killed by police, you know, which I had to look at them all, and then in order to not make a mistake--because I'm not an expert, I don't have a background in it--every link I share, every interview I have I have to overprepare for, and I've gotten more used to it now, but I would spend hours reading, selecting links, curating them to share, trying to make sure I understood them, making sure I was framing them correctly, and that has been a wonderful masterclass--I mean, I feel like I have nine master's degrees now, but shame on me if I make a mistake about how what's happening in an indigenous community or with gender. I wanted to be able to model the best possible work I was asking other people to do, which also meant that I would have to, you know, own a mistake that I made publicly, which is also what I'm asking people to do. So those are the things--I mean, those are really the things. It was deeply personal in a way I didn't expect. It was more violent than I expected. I mean, I just never imagined I was going to spend my time fighting with people about whether Robert E. Lee was a good guy or not. I mean, it's just a shock. [both laugh] And then it's just the weight of getting it right in areas that are not my expertise, which quite frankly are all of them. Zach: I think that's the most interesting thing about this work. When you talk about--'cause ultimately, you know, you and I, we've had conversations on and off-mic around, like, you're talking to a lot of people who are self-described diversity, equity and inclusion experts, but, like, the reality is, like, all of this work in, like, its full earnestness is still very new, and, like, no one, I don't believe, has a right--outside of people who have lived experience, right? So you're talking about folks who have really lived this and they've built things. They've built coalitions, right? So, like, if you're talking about people with a civil rights background, sure, but I'm talking about, like, the average corporate D&I person. You know, there's very little I believe true, like, expertise. It's like, "We're all out here just trying to learn and grow and amplify and make an impact where we can." I do think that you--and this is not a pat on the back--I really do think it's important that people appreciate folks who are in your position. You're one of the few people I think who, like, will take onus on mistakes that you make, right? Like, there's some journalistic principles to that too of course, but it also I think comes with the domain of what you're covering. Like, I think there's a lot of times when folks just feel like they're so beyond apologizing. It's like, "No, you were wrong. It's okay."Ellen: Right, and that is--it's humiliating and it's hard to master in a highly-competitive environment. It feels like you're going to lose something important, some sort of status thing, but I think particularly for white audiences who don't understand--and I didn't understand until I started learning more--about the contours of what it means to be white, you know? We spend so much time thinking about what everybody else's life is like and what they need from us and what we should do, but we, meaning white people, need to think about what whiteness actually is, and that seems to trigger this hideous reaction from folks. It's like a soul death. I think that the more we become accustomed to making space for these conversations and white people--especially white people who are in leadership positions--talking with other people about the shape of, about the idea of whiteness as a concept, as a construct, and what that means and why you cling to it even if you don't know that you're clinging to it the better off we're going to be. And so modeling that--I'll give you a good example. A couple years ago we sent out a reader survey, our marketing department sent out a reader survey, to anybody who subscribes to a Fortune newsletter, and the first part of the survey was boilerplate and the rest of it was tailored to your specific newsletters. I only paid attention to the information that we were asking from my readers around who they were and what they needed and how diverse they were and all this other stuff. Where I didn't notice was that the first part of the newsletter only had male or female as an option for your gender, and within seconds of it going out my inbox was filled, filled with people who weren't angry but were deeply hurt, and it was such a validation of the relationship that we had created together, but oh, I scrapped everything I was working on, sent apologies to everybody who had written to me, and then spent the next column walking through what happened, apologizing and promising to do better, but in order to actually do that I had to get our folks who designed the survey in Bangalore on the phone and get them to add other options, and then make sure with my audience that I had added the right options. And it was a beautiful experience. I'm still humiliated by it. I didn't even notice. But as a result, I brought that to our Fortune events team, and now all introductory language in all of the scripts for all Fortune conferences uses gender-neutral terms.Zach: Well, it's incredible, right? And, like, I think what people in positions of power--and power is relative, right, and we're gonna talk about this in a little bit, but, like, privilege is relative. You know, I'm a black, straight-presenting straight man, Christian man, who is over six feet. So that comes with certain challenges and certain privileges, but you can demonstrate humility to communicate "Oh, you know, I caught this. I realize I was wrong, and this is what we're gonna do about it." Like, that's huge, and I think also to your point, like, them not being mad but being hurt, like, that's an important part, piece of nuance to grasp, like, to decenter yourself. Like, we've had other conversations on the pod around, like, decentering whiteness from conversations with marginalized communities, and it's like, if you just decenter yourself for a moment, stop thinking that--you know, stop centering your own hurt or your own pride or ego and consider that people are reaching out to you. And they sound angry, or they're yelling or they're using direct or curt language, it's because they feel ignored or left behind or they don't feel seen, and, like, that's important, right? Like, we're all human beings. We all, by the very nature of our own existence, deserve the right to be seen, and I think, like, that--if we can change our perspective a little bit, especially from a leadership perspective, and understand where that pain is coming from and, like, that hurt, I think that can time shift like, just the overall responses, you know what I mean?Ellen: You're absolutely right about that, and it is a leadership skill, and it's an inclusive leadership skill, and it's one of a core set of listening and decentering skills that are very hard to learn and very hard to each, because they do take time to master and to be supported in a work environment, especially a work environment that's under siege, that wants to be innovative or is having some sort of problem, and now we all have the same problem. Now we all have coronavirus. [laughs] So, you know, all of the things that we know to do to be inclusive tend to go by the wayside when we're in an emergency situation and people tend to fall on their worst habits. They hire mini-mes. They assemble teams of people like them. They want to stay comfortable in times of real volatility. So I think we're entering into a pretty interesting test, whether some of our commitments to taking risks--and I've got air quotes around risks--with people who are not like ourselves will stick with that during times where teens are gonna be coming together rapidly and people are gonna be making very difficult decisions.Zach: Agreed. You know, and let's continue talking forward. Let's talk about you actually in this work, 'cause you talked about this shape--and again, like, we don't... I love--sidenote, I love this platform because of the kind of conversations we have. You know, shout-out to you. You're one of the few people on that platform so far that we've really, like, tackled the concept of whiteness. Like, the way you talked about the contour and shape of whiteness, like, how it practically shows up. I want to talk about what it looks like for you being who you are, a black woman in this space, talking to majority-white executive leaders around these issues? And, like, what does it look like to maintain a balance--and I don't even know if balance is the right word, but it's like you have to, I would imagine, carry enough of a relationship so that you can actually get them to open up and have conversations while at the same time--I could be wrong--it seems as if you go, like, too hard, then you end up damaging your potential network and brand, like, to where you won't be able to have anymore conversations with this space, but you're also trying to, like, speak on behalf of, or amplify, marginalized voices or speak truth to power. Like, I'm curious as to, like, that dynamic and, like, how does it work for you as a journalist?Ellen: That is such a great question. Most people don't ask me that, and it really is something I've thought a lot about over the years. The vast majority of the work that I have done as a journalist--which was a second career for me--that involved powerful people had nothing to do with race, although I always asked questions about, you know, race and equity as a natural part of the way I talked. And that was mostly at FastCompany where I wrote a lot of profiles, and writing profiles of people is a different way of telling a story about a company. It means I don't have to be a tech expert or I don't have to be a hardware expert or I don't have to be a medical devices expert to talk to people who are running these kinds of companies, 'cause the higher you go up on the food chain the more of what you do all day is the people part, is making sure that you're removing barriers for growth, and that includes touching product and touching money, but mostly what you do is you think about people, and not just your customers but the people that work for you. And those are universal conversations, and those were ones that I learned to get good at. And I also--this is odd, because I spent years and years and years as an art dealer and working in museums and galleries. I spent a lot of time talking to people I didn't know--typically people who had more money than I did--about something they absolutely did not need to buy, which is, you know, pigment on some parchment or fabric, and then just talk about the world, the world of ideas, and I got very comfortable talking to people with status because of that decades-long experience, and once you start talking to people, then other things can flow from it. So I walked into the race beat having developed a sense of comfort and belonging talking to people who were quote-unquote powerful, and to your point--and I'm going to say this delicately--because I've always been sort of a middle-of-the-pack person in the news room, in journalism, I'm not part of any kind of fast track, I don't look like the next editor-in-chief of anything, you know, based on results of the last couple of decades. I felt a sort of freedom that people who are largely invisible often feel, and I was lucky. I wasn't head of a household. I didn't have children for most of my journalism career. I'm a stepmother now, so I don't bare the sole responsibility for their well-being. I support older relatives, but for the most part I live a pretty safe and self-contained life, so I felt like I could take some big swings and big risks, and I--I just am nobody's next choice for executive anything, right? Like so many of us are. I'm the person--and I say this with real love and real respect, but I am the person who found a niche and was expected--and I expected it of myself--to stay there. It is a very freeing thing. As much as I would love someone to throw me the kids to a major publication and have all of my leadership delusions of grandeur play out for me, for the most part I got where I am by turning in story after story after story after story asking very powerful people some questions that I was legitimately curious about, about how they think, how they lead, how they make mistakes, how they course correct, you know? And these are difficult conversations to have. It was not fun for me ask Mark Parker, the CEO of Nike, what the heck was going on with Tiger Woods, right? These kinds of things. It's like, "What's at stake?" And we talk about all of them with a sense of purpose of telling a story and not a sense of "I need to hold you accountable." On the other hand, I haven't really interviewed any actual evil-doers. I've never chased down Harvey Weinstein. I've never chased down a person who is an obvious problem that way, and I think I look forward to being able to do that one day, but I do think in the work that I'm doing now, when I started diversity and inclusion as a serious practice and as a serious emphasis, it was relatively new. Four years into it, we haven't gotten very far, and now I think I'm going to find myself having more serious conversations with people who have said all the right things and haven't gotten very far with their results, and those are going to be candid conversations. They're going to be challenging conversations, and I assume noble intent for all of them, but I do think that corporate America, when it comes to inclusion, is going to have to face some sort of reckoning, and there's some obvious problems in the tech world. There are some obvious problems people aren't even trying, but there are some real bright spots, particularly in certain sectors--like consultancies for example--who really are trying. They may not be getting where they want to go, but there's a real openness there. So I expect the conversations I will be having to be getting more emotional because we now have data, and the data shows that we're not moving far enough fast enough.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And to your point, I do think, relative to other spaces, there are at least consultancies in that space--like, they're out there at least talking the talk, and one could pessimistically surmise that that's because of who their clients are or how they're trying to market, but still, like, they're doing more. That space--and, you know, we could go firm to firm, but that space is doing more than, like, you know, certainly than Google is doing today, right? Or Uber or others. So I 100% hear you on that. I do agree. One I think it's incredible that you acknowledged the fact that, like, having made the progress and had the momentum that you're looking for, I do agree--and it resonates with me--about the fact that the work itself is going to need to get more, you know, lovingly confrontational. You know, not your work explicitly. I mean just, like, diversity, equity and inclusion work is going--because I do think as we have Gen Z, as they integrate more into the workforce, you know--people talked about millennials have a lower bar, level of tolerance, for some of the talking [?], and, you know, they'll leave or they'll transfer jobs or they'll quit or they'll pursue their passion, all that kind of stuff. I really think we're gonna see a much different and higher degree of that with this next generation of workers, right? And I think that, like, they're just a savvier group of people. They're more, like, just informed, because they grew up--they didn't grow up on the Internet when they were, like, in high school. Like, they had tablets when they were toddlers, right? So the idea of this next group wanting a different type and level of accountability, and the fact of the matter is that Gen Z, like, it's gonna be the most, like, diverse group of people that's ever entered the workforce, you know what I mean? Like, more black and brown, more gender-fluid, trans, non-binary, more representation across the spectrum. Like, there's gonna just be way more, like, just a different cohort of worker in this next generation, yeah.Ellen: That's right, and hearts and minds are just not gonna get you there. We cannot make sure that everyone feels super comfortable and understands everything and just feels good about things, you know? I think the first step is going to be what are the actual rules and systems that you can put into place that will mitigate bias and make sure that people are behaving well in the workplace? There are a couple of things that often come to mind, but Intel has the warm line. Are you familiar with that? Zach: No, break it down for us.Ellen: I really--and Barbara [?] is their chief global diversity officer. She's really smart. She's really on it. They have a very unusual way of measuring in diversity in that they're on track, it's where the percentage of representation in the marketplace--which I appreciate--and they're managing to it beautifully, but if there is a [?] person at any level, but typically individual contributor, is having a problem with their manager, they have something called the warm line. It's warmer than the hot line, and they can find somebody who is trained to understand to help them understand what's happening. So it's like putting in a ticket, like, a tech ticket, and determining what needs to happen next, and what often needs to happen next is that their manager needs an intervention. Some support, some training, some information, and that is looked at as a developmental experience, not a punishment, and some of their--I don't have their data in front of me, but their data around the warm line usage has been outstanding. People have been using it. People have been flagging issues. They've been using it to not only help individual managers but to beef up training, making sure that this is something for everybody and that managers who get a call from the warm line people aren't feeling shamed by it so that they disappear forever. And I was really--that is an example of a systemic approach to people's behavior and making sure they understand what's expected of them if they're having trouble just formulating a response, that they have that new information, they have that language at their fingertips, but making it very clear across the line about people are feeling at work is important to the organization. You link that to performance metrics, to your performance reviews, if you link that to your compensation, are you promoting people? Not just bringing people onto your team. Are you moving them along? Those are the kinds of things that really make a systemic difference, and the hearts and minds will follow. I hope that the hearts and minds will come along as we become more comfortable working with people who are different from ourselves, because that's the gift of proximity, you know? That's the whole purpose of proximity, as Brian Stevenson so beautifully talks about. But these are the kinds of bright spots that I collect. Like, little pearls of hope that I collect that make me feel hopeful that people are very serious about solving some of these issues.Zach: No, 100%, and I think to your point, like, what I'm excited about, what I have not seen, right--and I'll also say, Ellen, like, Living Corporate has allowed me space to interview a wide array of people, right, as you know, but what I haven't explicitly experienced and what I haven't really heard anyone articulate is, like, we're in this phase now where it's, like, all about, like, awareness and unconscious bias, right? So, like, we're doing unconscious bias training, we're kind of still talking about vocabulary. You know, that's kind of, like, really been the space we've been in for some years now, and what I'm really interested in seeing in this next phase of leadership development and work and just in this space overall is let'sg et away from, like--and not get away from it wholly, but what I mean is let's continue the conversation forward. Yes, we've talked about the historicity of racism. We've talked about structural inequity, but sometimes it turns, like, theoretical or, like, abstract, like it's out there, right? Like, I'm really excited about what does it look like for you to--so yes, we have structural inequity and we have--like, a variety of ways, right? People are economically disadvantaged. There's food deserts. There's all types of things. Let's also talk about the structural inequities in this workplace, right? Like, let's talk about our behaviors in this space and how it reinforces patriarchy, white supremacy, how we have outmoded ideas of hierarchy and power and structure and how [those] things not only curtail innovation, but they also exacerbate mental wellness problems and challenges, right? Like, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for us to evolve and put some of the white fragility down and have some honest dialogue around that, you know what I mean?Ellen: I do. I'm hoping that I'll be able to find ways to either lead these kinds of conversations or participate in these kinds of conversations that will send a ripple through a culture. And you are absolutely right. For it to work, for it to work well or really at all, it has to ripple through the culture of what is perceived to be power now, and that's hard, and that's terrifying, you know? Power does not give itself up easily. As a culture, in the United States at least the majority culture--I know you guys talk about the majority culture, which is different in other places--we have a very specific idea of who we think is powerful, and we're still going through the exercises of "Google a Leader" and, you know, pictures of white people show up, or ask a child "What does a doctor look like?" and they draw a white guy in a white smock. It's just--the image is so ingrained. I think this is where the entertainment media has a real role to play, just by normalizing certain kinds of people who aren't typically in charge. The idea of non-traditional casting is already an insulting point of view, but it explains the problem. The president has typically looked a certain way in the history of media. Women have always been presented as a certain way, as sort of the sidekick or the supporter or the sexual object and powerful for ways because they were magic or wiley or just nonsense things that influence all kinds of ideas about how we as an entertainment culture think of people who are powerful. Black people with certain kinds of hair would automatically make things like the Crown Act less of a big deal.Zach: The fact that we even have to have a Crown Act is wild.Ellen: It is wild. All of this stuff is wild, and little by little as people start to notice it and think about it in context, once you get over the initial shock of "God, how did I not know this before? I'm embarrassed," or "I'm embarrassed that I noticed in myself that I was uncomfortable with the dentist with braids," you know? Suddenly just to make the cultural aspects of that less wrenching for individual people, but it does have to be intentional. I think I have looked at too many videos of young people with tiki torches or read too many ridiculous sort of comments on TikTok videos or just in general on social media to believe that young people automatically have the answer. I assure you they do not.Zach: Yes, it's a lazy analysis, truly.Ellen: It is terrible, and even if they did it wouldn't make a difference if they don't come out to vote, you know? The young people's revolution is not coming. It has petered out. And I think as young people in particular walk into their lives and feel increasing pressures of, you know, wanting to have a life partner, wanting to have a livable home, wanting to have a livable wage, all of the pressures and the weird preconceived notions about what we think is power and what we think is good behavior in society is gonna come bubbling back and turn into their worldview. It just feels inevitable at this point. Zach: I think that really helps us transition into the work that you're doing now and the topic of your conversations on raceAhead and even just the focus of, like--the things I see that you tweet about and you talk about, right? You've been covering politics this year. Why is that?Ellen: You know, I--in the last couple of years, particularly as the Trump presidency was starting, I made a decision that I was going to mention things that he said that were not true or address the policies and how they affected my audience in a very direct way, and that was something that I think many, many, many people in many industries had to work very hard to think about the fine line that they wanted to walk on there. They don't want to alienate someone who feels strongly identified with Republican values and principles and also not make the president angry if you have to interface with him for any reason like most people in business do, but I have a very specific audience. I have an audience of people who are considered--my audience cares about people who are black and brown and Hispanic and immigrant and AAPI and LGBTQI+, you know, all of those things. People who are underrepresented in communities, in schools, in power, in leadership, in business and in financing, you know? Like, all of the things that we know. If we care about this audience we have to examine, in direct ways, the speech and the policies that affect this audience. That is the talent pipeline. That is my audience, and if you want to have a diverse pipeline you have to care about the fact that black women are unlikely to survive motherhood. You have to care about the fact that certain neighborhoods are safe in very, very specific and manageable ways and we don't manage them. So I cover all of that, and this particular administration far more than previous ones is working really hard to not only undo any of the elements of the previous administration, the Obama administration, that led to greater inclusion in the government and across society, but were directly aggressively making people less safe, from the immigration ban, from transgender issues both in the military and throughout society. It was just, like, one thing after another, so I just decided that I had to talk about it, I had to flag it. Making people afraid to take the census is an incredibly dangerous thing, you know? The under-counting of vulnerable communities, of people who are worried that their citizenship is going to be questioned, is dangerous. It's going to have an impact on community health for years to come. The kids in cages at the border. Like, all of this. It was just an overwhelming amount of things that hit the political and public policy sphere, so I decided I was gonna cover it all, not necessarily advocating for one candidate over another, but just--these are the issues, and you should flag them, and you should understand the genesis of them and come up with an idea for yourself. And I will say though, for 2020, just for a brief moment of time, having such a diverse slate of candidate was a beautiful and affirming thing, and it was an interesting way to get to know a variety of different people and their communities and where they came from but also try to understand where they fit into a traditional political machine. I don't think I have any answers around that, but it has been interesting to watch it and it has been interesting to see where voters are moving to feel safe and hopeful. I'm speaking really carefully right now. [both laugh] I don't want to reveal too much of my own personal preferences, but I do think as sad as it has been for people to lose their candidate of choice, it was tremendously exciting to see such diversity on stage. Andrew Yang was a surprise, right?Zach: Yes, and I think it's like--it really helps me as someone--you know, we all live in respective bubbles, like, no matter how "woke" or aware we think we are, like, we all have areas we just don't understand. I think that was a wake-up call for me. Like, "Dang, y'all really--okay, we voting for Andrew Yang? Okay." I think--I'm really curious, as we come to a close here... when Bloomberg was in the race, maybe you were holding it back but you didn't seem to hide your anger and frustration, not only on your personal social media accounts but also on raceAhead, and I'm curious to know what role do you believe that anger can play in speaking truth to power and then driving systemic change?Ellen: That is such a great question. I was livid, and I am still surprised at how angry I got with that thing he said. He lied about what redlining is to protect his client. I mean, his entire wealth is based on his relationship with the financial services community. I mean, just billions and billions of dollars is running around and then he lies about what redlining is, and I just--I lost my mind, and I honestly don't know what it was that triggered such a strong reaction. It could be a variety of things including, you know, blood sugar and not enough sleep or whatever, but I was well and truly angry, and I tried so hard not to sound angry in that column, and I'm a little bit afraid to even go back and reread it because I was shaking mad for days. I just--I couldn't, and I really struggled to figure out what it was that had triggered me so badly. And the problem is that in order to write that column I went and looked up some of the tracks on redlining and read what people wrote about how they were managing these communities and really just thought about, let it marinate, in the kinds of things that people were saying, specifically about immigrants and black people and jews. Just the hatred and the way they described how they lived and the way they went out of their way to make sure that these communities were isolated and continue to be isolated for generations, and then to just breezily say... look at how mad I am now. Look, you just made me so mad right now. [both laugh] And just to breezily say, "Oh, yes, because the banks changed their regulations poor people got mortgages they couldn't manage and they ruined the economy for everybody," and not one person associated with the '28 financial crash was held, like, accountable. Really, really accountable. They paid fines, there was a rearrangement of things, and I know that there were plenty--I've interviewed plenty of bank executives who felt the weight of that--all of them women by the way--who felt the weight of it, who felt that it was an important wake-up call to make real changes. I'm glad nothing similar has happened again, but I just--I'm speechless I'm so angry just even remembering that, and so what I guess I would say to answer your bigger question is that the righteous rage of people who have a point to make, and it's about systemic unfairness and it's women who get put down for their anger and they're called all kinds of names, it's black people who are isolated as sort of the angry black man, the angry black woman, you know? The things that we do to put down people who have a real point to make is such a sign that we're on the right track, you know? That powerful people respond with lies. And Bloomberg is a smart man. He willfully misrepresented the definition of redlining, and there's nothing anybody could tell me that would make me believe any differently, and he did it for a reason, and he did it to protect powerful people such as himself, and he did it because we are not, as a society, prepared to do our own work, to read books, to think about how things actually work and to doubt powerful people, because we need them and we depend on them for our survival. You know, that's how they get away with it. And so it takes the angry voice, the clear voice of "That is not true," we need them, and we need them whether we're typing, we need them whether we're showing up and voting. You don't have to be screaming it but, you know, hang onto it. Hang onto it. You know, there's just--the world really depends on someone who is too agitated by a terrible injustice that continues to play out in front of them to sit by the wayside. And, you know, call me an angry black woman, call me--you know, call anybody anything, as soon as you start hearing that label you know that you're onto something, and that leads to the ultimate expression of allyship is believe other people. You know, that's it. You don't get to call yourself an ally. I get to call you an ally, and I will call you an ally when you believe, when I see you believing and taking an action that puts you at risk, and that's what we need to see. Don't ask people to prove it. Don't ask people to present you more evidence. I'm not coming at you with a PowerPoint deck. None of those things. When people tell you there's a problem you need to listen to them, and that's it. That's the one-two dance of anger that's... that is... I am furious thinking about that damn redlining thing. I am, like, legitimately furious. I was furious for days, and I still--I cannot tell you--in your spare time you should get a therapist license, because that would be hilarious to actually process this with you. I cannot quite put my finger on what made me so angry, but I could not believe it. It was everything. You know, this guy breezes in, starts throwing money around, he wants to be president. Ugh. He could have registered--how many fines of formally incarcerated people in Florida could he have paid to restore their voting rights? Zach: He could've fixed the entire Flint water crisis with millions left over.Ellen: Millions left over for a party. It's just--I don't... I couldn't believe it, and then to lie like that. It's--ugh.Zach: I apologize for taking you there. I didn't--Ellen: It's good audio, man. It is good audio.Zach: But it's important because I do think we're missing that too. I think we're missing the reality of the rage that comes with lived experience when we talk about equity, right? I think it's Eurocentric in origin. It's, like, this overdependence on--it's like we almost make data divine, right? Like, look, data are just points of information compiled by human beings that have conscious and unconscious biases. This quantitative data is but one point. There are other things that need to be considered, and that has to I believe include lived experience. You know what, I really think, Ellen, we need to just--we need to end it right here. Y'all, shout-out to Ellen McGirt, senior editor of race and leadership for Fortune Magazine. We're gonna have all of her information in the show notes. Make sure y'all subscribe to all of her different newsletters including raceAhead. It's a wonderful read. I check it out every single day. We definitely consider Ellen a friend of the pod, of Living Corporate as a whole organization. Y'all, we here. You know, every Tuesday we're dropping these real conversations. Make sure you check us out. You know what it is. Just Google us, man. I ain't about to list all our stuff. Just Google us. Living Corporate. Until next time, y'all, peace.

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

Blog Post for Ep#91 Celiac News Roundup for September with Ellen It's now the beginning of September, and I'm thrilled to be chatting again with Ellen Baynes of The Celiac Scene.  Ellen searches the internet (and everywhere else) to find informative articles and studies about celiac disease and the gluten free diet.  She summarizes them and passes them on to us on her website, on facebook and also in her newsletter.  This week we chatted about – The launch of a new app called My Healthy Gut A new study that re-looks at the incidence of celiac disease in first degree relatives A special requirement for volunteers at a Calgary Food Bank A new blood test to look at the immediate effects of gluten on the bloodstream Gluten Free meals for emergency or wilderness situations How celiacs manage eating at fast food outlets Suggestions for offerings at a new gluten free bakery How to tell your new boyfriend that kissing after gluten has it's hazards Coffee shops offering gluten free snacks You can find out more at www.theceliacscene.com where you can also subscribe to the newsletter.  The facebook page can be found at www.facebook.com/TheCeliacScene   Sue's Websites and Social Media – Podcast https://acanadianceliacpodcast.libsyn.com Podcast Blog – https://www.acanadianceliacblog.com Facebook - @acanadianceliacpodcast Twitter – CeliacPodcastCA Email – acdnceliacpodcast@gmail.com Baking Website – https://www.suesglutenfreebaking.com Instagram - @suesgfbaking YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUVGfpD4eJwwSc_YjkGagza06yYe3ApzL      (search Sues Gluten Free Baking) Email – sue@suesglutenfreebaking.com Other Podcast – Gluten Free Weigh In – https://glutenfreeweighin.libsyn.com

Blog Post for Ep#91 Celiac News Roundup for September with Ellen It's now the beginning of September, and I'm thrilled to be chatting again with Ellen Baynes of The Celiac Scene.  Ellen searches the internet (and everywhere else) to find informative articles and studies about celiac disease and the gluten free diet.  She summarizes them and passes them on to us on her website, on facebook and also in her newsletter.  This week we chatted about – The launch of a new app called My Healthy Gut A new study that re-looks at the incidence of celiac disease in first degree relatives A special requirement for volunteers at a Calgary Food Bank A new blood test to look at the immediate effects of gluten on the bloodstream Gluten Free meals for emergency or wilderness situations How celiacs manage eating at fast food outlets Suggestions for offerings at a new gluten free bakery How to tell your new boyfriend that kissing after gluten has it's hazards Coffee shops offering gluten free snacks You can find out more at www.theceliacscene.com where you can also subscribe to the newsletter.  The facebook page can be found at www.facebook.com/TheCeliacScene   Sue's Websites and Social Media – Podcast https://acanadianceliacpodcast.libsyn.com Podcast Blog – https://www.acanadianceliacblog.com Facebook - @acanadianceliacpodcast Twitter – CeliacPodcastCA Email – acdnceliacpodcast@gmail.com Baking Website – https://www.suesglutenfreebaking.com Instagram - @suesgfbaking YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUVGfpD4eJwwSc_YjkGagza06yYe3ApzL      (search Sues Gluten Free Baking) Email – sue@suesglutenfreebaking.com Other Podcast – Gluten Free Weigh In – https://glutenfreeweighin.libsyn.com

"You can change the world just by sharing your story".   What started out as a bit of fun earlier this year has taken on a life of its own. Around 20,000 people now listen to the Ten Words podcast each week, to look behind the scenes and who said what and why.   So in this episode, I review the story so far and pick my highlights from the first 20 episodes, featuring poets, pastors, strippers, celebrities, politicians, scientists and storytellers. I hope you enjoy it.   Thank you SO much for joining me on the journey so far. I can't wait to see where we go next!   Ep. 1 PILOT ~ "You can change the world just by telling your story". Ep. 2 BARACK OBAMA ~ "Fired Up? Ready to go". x2 Ep. 3 VIVIENNE WESTWOOD ~ "Buy less. Choose well. Make it last. Quality not quantity". Ep. 4 CEDRIC VILLANI ~ "To achieve good results work all night and eat soup". Ep. 5 ELLEN ~ "It's failure that gives you the proper perspective on success". Ep. 6 GARRY KASPAROV ~ "A good human plus a machine is the best combination". Ep. 7 J.K. Rowling ~ "The stories that we love will live in us forever". Ep. 8 JERRY SEINFELD ~ "The road less traveled is less traveled for a reason". Ep. 9 BEYONCE ~ "Growth. Love. Happiness. Fun. Belief. Enjoy your life (it's short)". Ep. 10 JOCKO WILLINK ~ "Good". Ep. 11 MAYA ANGELOU ~ "I've learned that I still have a lot to learn". Ep. 12 DITA VON TEESE ~ "Only mediocrity is safe from ridicule. Dare to be different". Ep. 13 QUENTIN TARANTINO ~ "Violence is one of the most fun things to watch". Ep. 14 ABRAHAM LINCOLN ~ "I destroy my enegies when I make them my friends". Ep. 15 TAYLOR SWIFT ~ "Happiness and confidence are the prettiest things you can wear". Ep. 16 THOMAS BURBERRY ~ "There's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing". Ep. 17 BRENE BROWN ~ "Connection is what gives meaning to our lives". Ep. 18 TOM HANKS ~ "Life is a grand adventure so keep writing and reading". Ep. 19 YUJA WANG ~ "I don't practice I rehearse. Practice is for beginners". Ep. 20 EUGENE PETERSON ~ "God let it be with me just as you say".

Just in time for Christmas, award-winning author Ellen Byron visits with A Cajun Christmas Killing. Ellen is a native New Yorker, transplanted to LA, who writes about Louisiana, a part of the country dear to her heart. And writing mysteries isn't all that Ellen is up to. She writes for television as well, and has a blog post up today at Chicks on the Case, about working with Martha Stewart. You can find out more about today's guest, Ellen Byron, and all her books on her website EllenByron.com. You can also find her on Twitter @ellenbyronla and on Facebook. Links and resources mentioned in this episode Ellen's newsletter sign-up Louisiana links on Ellen's site Ellen's post at Chicks on the Case about what it's like working for Martha Stewart (!) Press play (above) to listen to the show, or read the transcript below. Remember you can also subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. And listen on Stitcher. You can also click here to watch the interview on YouTube. Transcription of Interview with Ellen Byron Alexandra: Hi, mystery readers, I'm Alexandra Amor, this is It's A Mystery podcast and I'm here today with Ellen Byron. Hi, Ellen. Ellen: Hi. Alexandra: How are you today? Ellen: I'm great. Thank you. Alexandra: Good. Good. You're not in a turkey coma yet? Ellen: No. No. Actually, I'm starting to really kind of go like, "Okay, I've had enough turkey." But, you know, I'm still kind of...still into it. Alexandra: Excellent. And you were telling me about pastalaya just a minute ago which is jumbalaya, but with pasta. Ellen: But made with pasta. Alexandra: Nice. Ellen: It's actually, I cheated and used a Zatarain's mix. But I'm very proud of myself because I created, I'll call it, cauliflower-alaya because I made jumbalaya and instead of using rice or pasta I used riced cauliflower and that actually came out great. So I actually gotta put a recipe together for that. Alexandra: Oh, nice. Okay. And I'm going to ask you about your recipes that are in your books in just a second. So let me introduce you to our listeners. Ellen Byron writes the "Cajun Country Mystery Series" and, obviously, she's interested in Cajun food. In a starred review Publisher's Weekly called her new book "A Cajun Christmas Killing" superb. "Body on the Bayou" won the Lefty Award for best humorous mystery and was nominated for a Best Contemporary Novel Agatha Award. "Plantation Shutters" which is the first book in the series was nominated for Agatha, Lefty, and Daphne Awards and made the U.S.A. Today best seller list. Ellen has written over 200 national magazine articles, she's published plays including the award winning "Graceland" and her TV credits include Wings, Just Shoot Me, Fairly Oddparents, and Pilots. Ellen is a native New Yorker and she now lives in the Los Angeles area with her husband, daughter, and two spoiled rescue dogs. So, welcome, Ellen. Let's talk about "The Cajun Country Mysteries". Introduce us to Maggie Crozat, I'd like to hear more about her. Ellen: Well, Maggie, she's 32, she's an artist, and she went to school in New York, she went to college art school in New York and then she was there for years and she had a relationship that didn't work out so she's come back home to Pelican, Louisiana where the town motto is, "Yes, we peli-can." And she's trying to get her footing again. She always kind of felt like a bit of a fish out of water. But her parents own a plantation that they turned into a B&B and she also works a day job at one. All the while she's trying to get her art career going again. So she's using some of her talent to make souvenirs that they're selling at some of the plantations but then she's also doing her own, finding her own voice now that she's moved back to Louisiana. Alexandra: Finding her own voice artistically or in other ways, as well? Ellen: Artistically. Alexandra: Oh, okay.

Get ready to laugh! We've got another Brilliant Business Moms team podcast! We’ve got Carlee, Ellen, and Victoria here, sharing how they’ve found work as Virtual Assistants and their thoughts on using VAs in your business. I know they get questions all the time about how they came to work on the Brilliant Business Moms team, and these ladies have a wealth of knowledge to share. Listen to the Podcast   On the Podcast 1:20 - How Our Team Came To Be 14:02 - What About Competition? 17:07 - Meeting Your Online Team In Person 20:50 - Working Well With Clients 26:18 - The Question Beth Anne Has Been DYING To Ask 36:31 - Riding Big Learning Curves 41:18 - Standards in Service-Based Business 44:06 - Setting Limits in Service-Based Business 50:10 - When VA Relationships Don’t Work Out 1:01:45 - Boss Perks Beth Anne: Ladies, I’d love for you to start by sharing how you got into work as a Virtual Assistant. 1:20 - How Our Team Came To Be Victoria: Sure, I can start! I got started a couple of years ago, and really out of necessity. I wanted to spend more time with my baby but I still needed to bring in an income. So I put together the work I had been doing professionally prior to having a baby, and thought maybe I could do that same type of work as a freelance contractor. We laugh about how easy this is, but I literally sent emails to a bunch of people! I sent about 25 emails in a week to different individuals that I followed online. (I do have a small blog, it’s not monetized, just a place on the Internet. And because of that I had knowledge and awareness of different mom bloggers out there.) So I sent these emails along the lines of, “Hey is there anything I can do to help you? Let me know.” The very first VA job I did was make a media kit for someone. I didn’t know anything about media kits or graphic design, but I figured it out and did the job. As far as my connection to Brilliant Business Moms (BBM), I was a long time fan girl of the podcast and the brand. I reached out to you, and Sarah at the time, and asked if I could be helpful, and eventually that translated into the working relationship we have now. Ellen, you started similarly, right? Ellen: Yes! I had a blog, but was really enjoying the behind the scenes stuff way more than blogging or creating things. Through blogging I knew a few others bloggers that I liked and got along well with. At first I offered free (or super cheap) work, because I really wanted to get experience. Most of that was raising my confidence, helping me know if I could actually do the more technical work and get paid for it. Working with those first few ladies that I really knew helped me realize I CAN do this, and I can keep going. I think I mentioned in the BBM group that I was looking for work, and either Beth Anne or Sarah reached out to me about doing a simple job. That’s how my work with Beth Anne started. I was copying and pasting names from a spreadsheet, and they were really happy with how fast I was! A tip for when you get started: If you are doing free or cheap work, make a boundary for that, maybe 10 free hours or 2 weeks, so you’re both clear on expectations--but it’s a great way to get started! Beth Anne: I think that’s a great way to get started, you two. When you reached out to us, Victoria, I remember reading your email and wondering if you were really offering to do things for free! We asked, “Is she crazy!? How is she this nice?!” At that time we didn’t take you up on the offer to do things for free, but we knew because we had that relationship you were in the back of our minds for as soon as we could afford a VA in our budget. One of your first tasks, Victoria, was helping format our ebook Time Management Mama. And then in the meantime your clientele built up a lot and I remember thinking, “Oh no! I think Victoria’s too busy for us now!” And Ellen, I remember Sarah finding your post in our Facebook group and reaching out. (And we still encourage moms to do that! Post in private Facebook groups. Share who you are and what you can offer. It’s a great place to get started.) And Ellen did work so well and so fast Sarah and I quickly started to freak out that we weren’t paying you enough! What you were charging at that time was such a small rate, but it’s good that over time you’ve built confidence and increased your rate. It’s really important as a VA to value yourself. Victoria: Beth Anne, this is so funny to hear from your side! I do want to add that, in that time of waiting for a job, or if you have someone you know you want to work for someday, in the meantime as much as you can be helpful, do it. Support the people and the brands you care about. The group was still close enough that Sarah and Beth Anne often asked for input on projects. It’s a good practice to give before you expect to get back. In life, that makes you a nice, moral person. But in business, it sets up the organic working relationship. Beth Anne: And Carlee! You’ve been so quiet, but I’d love to hear how you started! Carlee: I feel like the newbie and almost the imposter in this conversation! It’s really funny how I started. I’ve always worked from home, but with jobs like grading papers and tutoring: on my time frame and pretty minimal because I homeschool my kids. But my youngest turned 10 last year, and has been doing well and getting more independent in school, my husband and I realized that I could take on more hours. I even actually applied to some jobs outside the home, and had no peace about it. I didn’t want the jobs and I didn’t want to be out there, and we were still homeschooling. For those of you who don’t know, Ellen is my (little!) sister-in-law. She was hesitant to tell me about VA work because a lot of people don’t really understand it or get what it means. (And now I face that too!) But when she finally explained what she had been doing, she told me she thought I would really enjoy the work and would be a really good fit for VA work. So I gave it a try! I did the same thing, I posted in our Facebook group and fell in love with BBM from the moment I started. I got a client right away who was excellent and paid me in courses. She knew what she wanted me to do and what classes would be helpful for that work. So I was able to work and learn all at once. Rather than paying me in money the first month, she paid me in classes. When Ellen’s husband was heading back to work for the school year and Ellen needed to drop her hours, there was a scramble to pick up the work that Ellen couldn’t do any more. There was the problem of the inbox and a few other issues! And if i remember the story correctly, she asked Ellen what Ellen thought of me coming on. Beth Anne: Yes! I think that’s right. Because Ellen, I don’t think you would have suggested it to me first. For reference everyone, and I have to tell this story because it’s so funny, Ellen literally had Be Brilliant mugs in her house for an entire year and was shipping them for me - and it took an entire year for her to ask me if she could have a mug and could I take it off her paycheck!!! It’s like, “Ellen! You can have as many mugs as you want!” So that’s very much Ellen’s personality. She wouldn’t have come to me to say I have this sister-in-law looking for VA work and she’s awesome. But the connection did happen organically. Carlee’s daughter, Mckenna, actually attended one of our Pinterest webinars. And once I found that out I gave Mckenna the course to help with her Etsy shop. And then one day the lightbulb went off. I knew we needed to add another member, and I knew the team member would be primarily offloading tasks from Ellen’s plate. But I didn’t want to have to jump back in and be that person to explain to a new person how Ellen was doing everything! And I also knew Ellen, and that she would absolutely need to feel comfortable telling the new person exactly what needed to be done. So I thought, “What about Carlee?” Carlee: It came out of those relationships. And to fast forward, Ellen does not have a problem bossing me around. I’ve known Ellen since elementary school, and I have been the boss forever. So Ellen has SUPER enjoyed getting the chance to tell me what to do. Ellen: Oh, I do. I do. :) Carlee: I love it. And Ellen’s personality is so sweet and genuine. She wouldn’t hurt a fly. If someone told her no or had been incompetent, she would have just fixed it for them and not said anything. So it works well that she can tell me point blank, that’s not right - do it again. 14:02 - What About Competition? Victoria: I feel like this is fun to get Brilliant Business Moms history. And I think this is a good place to point out one thing Beth Anne has done really well in terms of building our team. It’s stereotypical to assume that anytime you get a bunch of ladies together there’s going to be a bit of cattiness and jealousy. This is such a good spot to say we have 0, no we have negative 50 million of that, on our team. I would just imagine in other settings, maybe you bring a new team member and - wait, what!? she’s related!? How did she get in here? I’ve worked in places before where people had that negative outlook on life. What I love about our team is there is none of that. We were very much, “Yay! Carlee’s here!! We can get even stronger!” And Beth Anne, I think that was good insight and foresight on your part knowing your team well, and knowing how we needed to operate together to be successful. We all play to our strengths. And we said in a recent episode, this past year was our most successful ever. And I think it’s due in large part by putting the exact right people together. For the business owner out there looking to put a team together, if you even see a hint of any negativity - stop it, cut it out. You want people who work so well together. Carlee, I think you said that a win for one of us is a win for all of us. Carlee: From the business owner end, I totally agree. As the team leader you have to be aware of your team and foster good relationships. You have to pick the right team and shut down negativity. From the VA end, and this is something Beth Anne shows in all her business practices, it is not about competition. Victoria and I are not in competition, and our jobs overlap all the time. There are times she does my job for me and I do her job for her. It’s not about if I do it better or she does it better, or who does more. We are a team. A win for one is a win for, and a loss for one is a loss for all. So when a babysitter can’t make it and you lose work time, we all chip in. Or, in my case I had a chicken emergency this morning (#WyomingLife), when those things happen we gladly jump in and fill in for each other. There’s only collaboration and not competition among a team. 17:07 - Meeting Your Online Team In Person Beth Anne: I have to say I don’t know if I’ve done a great job of fostering this, but I think you all are awesome and do a great job working with one another! You two, Carlee and Victoria, especially have jobs that overlap all the time and you manage it and figure it out and work together so, so well. One thing that definitely helped is when we were all able to get together in person at the Business Boutique in Nashville. That was the first time I got to meet Carlee and Victoria in person! All of us getting to be together really solidified the team. We are all coworkers, but we’re all friends as well. We care about each other as people and that’s really important. Carlee: I think it helped because we all have slightly different personalities in person than online than everyone expected. Obviously, I’ve known Ellen forever...so that doesn’t count. Beth Anne was a little different than I thought, and Victoria was too. But that was so good! We’ve talked since then about personality and communication styles and strengths and differences. Choosing to be friends and enjoy, and help each other has helped us communicate better according to each other’s styles. Victoria: Choose conferences wisely: whether you’re building a team, working on a team, or working as a VA. I would even say look at the calendar of where you want to go, and check-in with your groups to see who will be there, and choose which events to attend that way. It can be hard in the online world to know how to connect. Even if you’re simply trying to meet people to put on your team, conferences can be a great way to meet a bunch of people in one location. Our team was able to meet in person for a longer work session in San Diego, and I know not everyone in business is in that spot. Conferences are more accessible, and while you’re there do as many auxiliary events as you can to meet people and network. Beth Anne: I totally agree. I had only talked on the phone to all of you before working with you. For someone looking for VA work, if you can meet up at a conference and interact in person how great would that be!? It gives them a better sense of who you are and what you do. I think I can know how a person communicates pretty quickly when I meet them in person. And doing online work you have to be a good communicator. 20:50 - Working Well With Clients Beth Anne: So obviously, you all are rockstars and I love that you all work so well together. I would love it to share with everyone what are your tips. How do you work well with clients? What do those relationships look like? Ellen: It may be cliche, but communication is so big. Being able to communicate over email is essential. Don’t be afraid to clarify, or ask dumb questions. It’s better to clarify up front when you’re working with someone on a project, rather than move forward unsure and frustrating your client. Communication really is just such a key part; especially with online work, when you can’t just go down the hall and have a conversation. Up front, you want your expectations to be clear, and know it’ll evolve over time of your working relationship. And even something as simple as responding to emails with new tasks, “That looks great, I’ll take care of it.” and offer a time frame of completion can be helpful. Beth Anne: As a team leader, whenever you ask for clarification, I love it. It shows that you care about doing the job well and about my vision for things. There is no dumb question! I want you to ask as many clarifying questions as you need. Carlee: And sometimes we’ll do a project knowing it’s not totally perfect or exactly right and submit the draft to you for feedback and tweaking or vision and direction. Sometimes it helps for us to take what Beth Anne has said, put it on paper, and see what we’ve missed. Victoria: I second the practice of sending drafts and getting concrete feedback. Something I’m consciously working on (not perfect at it!) is to take detailed notes as I work, especially when working with several different clients. It’s important to mark differences in the styles you need to keep track of between your clients. Or you need to write notes about how a particular client handles a certain situation. Especially if you’re working with a bunch of different people, those details can get lost or muddled. I can be a very creative, free thinker and sometimes I’m tempted to make up the answer to a problem for myself, which works in my life but not when I’m working for other people! Maybe this habit of keeping notes comes naturally to you, but for me it for sure does not. But I’m making myself do it! In the same breath as talking about communication, I think transparency is really important. Maybe you need to send a note to say, “Hey, I’m really struggling to understand how your sales funnel is working, but I’m taking notes and will ask you again if I have questions.” I also try to be really detailed with my time records so people know how long a project took me. I think having strong communication and being transparent builds trust. Ellen: Early on in my VA work I had to face the fact that I am very much a people-pleaser. Before I got started I read the Bootstrap VA -- and it’s an awesome book. It helped me learn to be okay with criticism. I knew going in that would be my big struggle, so I made a very conscious effort to prepare myself. Getting feedback isn’t bad, and you can’t take it personally. You have to be able to take critiques, learn from it, and work with it. But this tendency is probably something a lot of people struggle with; I knew for me it would be a particular weakness and I wanted to be prepared to work on distancing myself from my work so I could take feedback well. Beth Anne: That is true - and I give all of you all tons of feedback! Which brings me to my next question that I’ve been dying to ask you all! 26:18 - The Question Beth Anne Has Been DYING To Ask About 6 months ago or so, you all confessed to me that when you first started working for me, the first couple of months, you thought I hated you. But when you guys made this confession to me, we were obviously past that point, and I thought you liked working for me at that point, but I still wanted to know: Why did everyone think I hated them!? What made you feel that way? And why in the world did you keep working for me!? Victoria and Ellen: *Not it* Carlee: Okay, Okay. I’ll start. When I came on the team, we pretty much jumped right into a Kickstarter campaign - and then straight into our gigantic FB Brilliance course launch. Side note: If you’re going to do VA work, don't think you’re going to do only do one thing. That doesn’t actually happen. I was hired to handle our inbox. I had been around about two weeks, and suddenly I was writing a refund policy. I think the policy was for our planner. In my draft of the document I used lots of formal wording, which defaulted to my love of English grammar. Then I got an email from Beth Anne that said, “Never use the word ‘therefore’, ever again!” I was like, “Okay then. Sure.” Needless to say, we didn’t end up using what I had written! It was comical Early on I did lots of screenshare hangouts with Ellen as she was handing off tasks to me and teaching me how to do certain things. During one of our conversations I said, “Ellen, I don’t think Beth Anne likes me! I don’t think she’s happy with me.” And I kid you not, Ellen’s exact words back to me were, “Oh I’m so glad you think that because you’re one of the most confident people I know, and I feel that way half the time too, so if you’re feeling that way then I feel better about myself.” It was great for me. Because I knew Beth Anne loves Ellen! Beth Anne thinks Ellen is the best thing ever. So if Ellen is thinking that about Beth Anne, but Beth Anne totally likes her, maybe she totally likes me! So we just worked through it. Ellen and I helped each other through it. And when Victoria hit that same spot, Beth Anne told her, “Go talk to Carlee.” And so she did. (And Victoria made sure I knew Beth Anne told me to talk to her. It was not gossip!) We talked it through, and I was able to help Victoria see that’s Why did we stick around? Because we’d all rather have the person who says, “Never, ever use the word therefore!” than someone who will dance around and not give a direct answer. I don’t want to deal with the game and fluff; I want to be told what’s great and what’s not, and be done. It’s a waste of time to do it any other way. It’s a respect level. Because even when I questioned whether or not Beth Anne liked me, I knew I liked Beth Anne and I liked Brilliant Business Moms, and I wanted to stick around and get better. Beth Anne: I feel like the mean head cheerleader or something! And my team is all, “We like Beth Anne but she doesn’t like me!” Ellen: For me, because my feelings happened very early on, I knew I was learning how to handle criticism. I learned that I do like the direct feedback. I’d rather know exactly what you want, and move on with that. That’s just part of the working relationship--we have to learn to deal with criticism! Victoria: Okay, guys. I would not hate it if you threw a fluffy pillow to me and then gave me criticism. Just saying. But yes, at the end of the day, we all pursue excellence in our personal and professional lives. And it’s good to get it straight, and know how to move on. I also feel I need to be the voice of practical necessity here. In addition to what you guys just mentioned, part of me is like, “Well, I still need a paycheck, so this is going to be worth it.” On a very real level, there’s a sense of knowing that it may be hard, but it’s going to be worth it. Man, this is getting very deep quickly. I’ll just say that I’m painfully extroverted. I’ve been noticing in my life that I like to work really hard, but as soon as the work gets challenging, I want to sprint on to the next thing. The best things come from more of the marathons and not the sprints. I also realized in myself that it’s a sign of maturity to believe it’s worth sticking through the hard things, and having an uncomfortable conversation or two to get through the tough spot - and, in our case, preserve the team and progress we’re making. I don’t know if that’s a VA thing or a work thing. Carlee: It’s a work thing. I’ve worked a lot of jobs and they all come with great parts and hard parts. I can honestly say at this point, even if I couldn’t have those first few weeks, I’m living my dream. This is my dream job. I’m so happy to be here, but it doesn’t mean it’s always easy. The other day Ellen and I had to redo a project we spent a lot of time on, but that’s the nature of the job! It’s the nature of the fact that we’re all moms, working in the margins, doing our best. It can’t be personal. And it can’t be all fun and sunshine and rainbows and then when it’s not I’m out of here. That’s not any part of life--not marriage, or parenting. And that’s the best part about our team! On the hard days (and hard because they’re busy, not because they’re bad, they are hard because our to-do list is longer than the number of hours we have) we talk to each other and pick each other up. What’s great is the other day I was having a very hectic day and Victoria reached out to me and said, “What can I do for you?” Victoria: See? Here’s a fluffy pillow! The fluffy pillow is valuable sometimes! Beth Anne: Victoria you’re such a nurturer and I love that about you. You pick up the slack for others. Victoria: And vice versa! It happens to me as well. Beth Anne: I am learning more and more as a team leader to get better about knowing how my team likes to be led. So, Victoria, I know in some cases it would be better to pick up the phone and have a conversation with you, than just send an email - which is my default. That’s part of my responsibility as a team leader. When it comes to all that hard stuff, it’s the same for me too! There are days that I don’t want to get up and do the work I need to do that day, even though I run the show. Assembling a team that cares about the mission makes a big difference. 36:31 - Riding Big Learning Curves Beth Anne: And Victoria, I know that the podcast has been one example of how you pushed through something that was harder was working on the podcast. I’m sure there were times you were tempted to say it’s not worth it! But everyone is so excited to have it back and you’ve created a great system for us. Victoria: Yes! I can talk about that. But first I do want to say, we all do care about the higher mission. We have all bought into Brilliant Business Moms. And if someone is having a bad day, the other has good day. If you run a business or work in a business, you make a commitment. That basic level commitment is, “This work has to be done because it’s what I agreed to do,” and sometimes once you work through that basic level, then the higher level love feelings come back about why you’re doing it. I hope it didn’t come out crass to say working for a paycheck is sometimes what keeps you going, I didn’t mean it to! Beth Anne: No, it didn’t! Victoria: Right, it’s just that sometimes you have still put one foot in front of the other. Speaking of that, the podcast is a good example of what we’re talking about. Around the time of our San Diego trip we had a team growing experience. We had a show due on Monday, and in my mind I had it basically complete and ready to go, but it was not that way. Carlee and I proof for each other, and I sent the transcript to her for proofing. Since we were in person, Carlee looked over at me and said, “Victoria, these shownotes are awful. They’re not done at all. You need to go back and fix it.” At first, I was mortified. Then I went through the stages of grief, getting angry then accepting what I had to do. This all occurred later at night, pressing up against the deadline. We worked through it and we hurried to get the show finished on time, and I swore I’d never work that late again! And you guys still heard a great episode that day, having no idea what happened behind the scenes! It was good for me to see that Carlee didn’t hate me, she just made a judgement call on the work. Carlee: And that’s it! My thought process was, “You usually do this fabulous job, and this is not up to your own standards.” I wasn’t mad, it wasn’t personal, they were just bad notes. There’s no hidden meaning with us, and that’s how Beth Anne is, too. Beth Anne and I are similar in that, we really shoot straight but there’s no deeper, read between the lines insult. Victoria: We really learned as a team, that we’re all here for the listener. We’re here for the community, to put out good content. It’s time like that the bigger mission does help. 41:18 - Standards in Service-Based Business Victoria: I think anytime you’re in a service-based business, it’s so hard to not directly tie yourself to your service. I feel like with product-business ladies, it’s kinda nice to be able to hide behind the product. With a service-based business, it’s just you. You’re providing the service. And you have to work extra hard to separate the value of the service from the value of you as a person. As a BBM team, we will always fall short in some way,  but we have a lot of grace for each other. Carlee: And you’re making such a good point for anyone looking to be a VA or be on a team. If you’re not working in person, you have to over communicate. Honestly, in this moment I should have explained what I was actually thinking, “These are not up to your own standards, did I miss something?” And really I was wondering, “Are you okay? Is there anything going on? Victoria: And on my end I was thinking, “Nope, I just didn’t get them done as well for whatever reason this week.” Carlee: You’re so honest, Victoria. I love it. This is the real deal, guys. Victoria: Aren’t we calling these BBM Confessions!? It fits! I think you have to be honest, and call each other out, but also give grace and be willing to move forward together. That’s why we’re all here, Beth Anne. Beth Anne: As a team leader one of the things I can improve on is communicating when I need to give feedback or ask for something to be done to another standard. I always feel really, really bad when I want you guys to change something last minute. I don’t want to be that boss who controls every hour of your day. But because I’m such a work under pressure and last minute person, and I know I drag you into that. 44:06 - Setting Limits in Service-Based Business Beth Anne: So I want to ask: how do you set boundaries on your time? For example, I know that Victoria has set work times with childcare. Ellen and Carlee’s worktime feels more fluid. How do you make sure I don’t take over your life!? Sometimes I know I do! That really concerns me. Carlee: But you..so...okay *laughs* You do and you don’t. Especially for Ellen and I, you do take over our lives sometimes - but we know that in advance. It’s not a daily thing. But we are aware of an upcoming big launch or big webinar, and during those times Ellen and I structure our time around work. On the days when we have a work event at 6pm at night, my crew knows we’re going to eat at 4:30 and then Mom is going to lock herself away. That’s a choice we’ve made and we don’t have to make it. Ellen: And it’s not every day. It’s rare. Carlee: Yes. But what people should know too is we can literally say, “Hey, I’m leaving town for 3 days.” And while our tendency is to follow up with, “But I can still work!” Beth Anne says, “No! Take time off!” We have crunch time, go time, all hands on deck -- but we also get the rest time. It wouldn’t be possible without the rest time. Ellen: But there are times Beth Anne sends me a task on Friday night but she says it can wait til Monday. And often I will do the task that weekend, only because I usually work Saturdays, but there’s no pressure. Victoria: Communication is good. My tendency is to do everything, but because my kids are little younger and I have very structured work days, I’ve tried to get better about projecting when a task can realistically be done instead of saying, “Sure I’ll get that done tonight!” Early on as a VA I tried to do it all right away, and it wasn’t healthy! When given a job I would say, “Sure sure! I can do it” but I really couldn’t, and it was resulting in stressful moments for our family. But now, we have clear times - ‘This is when I work, and this is when I don’t work’ - and planning in advance has been helpful. We haven’t talked about working with a bad client yet, but in my bad client experience it was expected that I could drop and do whatever this person needed right away. But setting realistic boundaries and communicating them clearly is good. Now I try to answer, “I’m done with work for today, but I can do it first thing tomorrow.” Beth Anne: Carlee and Ellen, I would totally understand and appreciate if you want to be more structured! I want you to be happy with your work and stick around for a long time and I would have no problem with you telling me what works for you with your life. Carlee: We are happy! And we promise it’s working. We as a team assign tasks according to those schedules, too. For example, I homeschool from 8 to 11 am, so I don’t have tasks that have to be done at 9 am. Victoria’s jobs are things she can do ahead of time, for example. Ellen: For me, the late-at-night stuff isn’t good, but early morning is my time. Beth Anne: And let me say what I love about Ellen’s early morning time is that I can go off to bed with a wishlist of items I’d like done, and by the time I wake up and have actually logged into my email Ellen has them done! Carlee: Me too! I’m a late night person and just recently I sent Ellen a few corrections to landing page at like midnight or 1 am. I was worried I had woken her up with all these crazy messages! She wrote back first thing in the morning and said, “Hey thanks! Those were great. Changes made.” It had only been 5 hours since I sent the corrections and they’re done! 50:10 - When VA Relationships Don’t Work Out Beth Anne: So let’s start talking about when the relationship is not working out. And this still cracks me up, because I’m still confused about the warning signs! You all thought I hated you, but kept working anyway! Victoria: Honestly, what we just described is more a of a challenge of working online. Working in-person you can joke around at the beginning of the day, have a conflict in the middle, but end with a joke. I think the barrier of the screen means you have to overcompensate. It’s just hard! I still contend that online is what makes it weird. And on a blog or business, you can always put the best version of yourself out there. But when you’re working with someone online you don’t always get the time to polish in between. Beth Anne: Okay, that makes me feel a little better. Victoria: And you’ve done well at helping us compensate! Getting us together at the conference and again in San Diego, that was huge. Carlee: Oh Victoria! You are such an extrovert. This won’t be true for everybody. Victoria: That’s true. Carlee: For me, I haven’t worked for a bad client. But for me, the product is my big determiner. I have to believe in something. I have to look at the product and believe there is great value going out into the universe. I have to get behind something, so I guess I work at a philosophical level that way. I’ve said no to, and had a hard time working with a product that I just wasn’t able to personally endorse. Whereas, Brilliant Business Moms is totally a brand and business and community I can get behind. Ellen: If you feel uneasy at all about something..and uneasy is different than having hard times. There’s going to be hard times...but if you feel uneasy about the client or the work they’re doing, it’s better to say no and back out than put yourself in that situation. It’s better to be 100% confident about the people you say yes to. Carlee: So true. And sometimes the uneasiness might come later. We talked about boundaries previously, and if someone doesn’t understand or respect your boundaries it won’t work. And maybe it’s as simple as time zone problem, where the times they want you to work you’re putting dinner on the table. But everyone has to be on the same page. For me right now, I just don’t have the hours to work with additional clients. I’ve had to drop clients because I simply don’t have time to give them what they need. Ellen: That’s usually the issue for me, too. It’s not a matter of not wanting to work with them, I just don’t have time. In fact, I’ve had to fire a few clients because my plate has gotten full and I literally didn’t have the time to do the work. Victoria: Being realistic with what you’re able to provide is key. And be okay that you’re not the right VA for everyone. The case when I had to end a working relationship. The client wasn’t a bad person or anything. It was just that the things I needed to do I wasn’t able to do. There was a big task that had to happen every morning, very early. I tried so hard to make it work for a long time, but with two little kids it wasn’t possible. As we were talking I just pulled up my breakup email with this client. I wrote, “I don’t think I’m the right VA for you. I’m not able to give you the support and assistance you need on a daily basis. I’d love to keep working until you find a replacement.”   Peace out. (Just Kidding!) I do worry if I say no to a job, I’ll never get another client, or that they’ll think badly of me. I often worry about my name or reputation, and that if I end a relationship will I ever work again? But truthfully, the sooner you realize it’s not working out the sooner you can prevent those unrealisitic fears. I think as women we want to do everything and be good at everything, and that person doesn’t exist. Beth Anne: Right. No one is good at everything all the time! So much of what we’re talking about comes back to honesty. I give you honest feedback about the work, and you give me honesty back with your schedule or a job you can’t do. Carlee: And we’re getting so much better at saying No right away! Ellen: I love Beth Anne’s video feedback. I get giddy and tell my husband, “Hey Tim, Beth Anne sent me a video!” It’s so great to be able to watch one of her videos and know exactly what she’s thinking. Carlee: Ellen I don’t know if Beth Anne realizes that our entire families watch her feedback videos with us! If you haven’t had the privilege of meeting Beth Anne in person, she is exactly who she seems to be: strong, a spitfire, kind, genuine. So her videos are seriously so funny. She tells us everything good about what we’ve done, and everything really really not good. Ellen: Tim will ask why I’m laughing, and it’s because Beth Anne sent a video. Carlee: Ellen and I will watch your videos at the same time and just message back and forth and we laugh so hard. Ellen: It’s my favorite thing. Iit’s great to see the video, because I can go fix exactly what needs fixing. Beth Anne: It really is the next best thing since we don’t have an office. And working in different time zones is a struggle, so it’s much easier to give feedback via video. We can’t constantly schedule a Google Hangout to go over things! I try in my screencast videos to pretend you’re right there. Carlee: And usually in these videos she tells us stories or something that’s going on, which are always hilarious. Victoria: And my favorite is when you comment on your environment, like a car driving by, and it tickles me. Carlee: You know, I hadn’t put it together with that whole “walking down the hall...” but you really can’t email us to say, “There’s a line with the wrong shade of pink here.” It just wouldn’t make sense in email. The videos are great, and they do reveal your personality. Beth Anne: Ellen sees the most of my videos because she also sees my raw course videos - and there are some where I go off on a rant where something isn’t working and I am so frustrated. Ellen: My favorite is when I talk back to you and say, “Oh gosh! You just have to click the button, Beth Anne! CLICK THE BUTTON!” My husband will ask what I’m doing and I’ll just respond, “Talking to Beth Anne.” Carlee: In one of your recent videos Beth Anne was concerned that we hadn’t published a pretty important page. We actually did have the page published, she was just looking on the wrong screen. Beth Anne was saying, “We’re at crunch time, guys! This needs to be done!” Ellen: “Just click the button, Beth Anne!” Carlee: And that just reminds us that there are things we do more naturally than you, and vice versa. Beth Anne: It’s an ego boost for you guys! You get to see me at my best and worst. You know I’m a flawed human, and that’s good. 1:01:45 - Boss Perks Beth Anne: One benefit of being the “boss” is that I get to collect a team who all have strengths different from me. We show this face to the world, and it all looks pretty and fabulous and polished. And I feel like I get credit for all of that! And, not only that, but I don’t have to do the things that aren’t my strengths, hardly ever, because I’m the boss and I just get to tell someone else to do it. And sometimes it does feel unfair! I do acknowledge that. There are lots of things I totally stink at. Carlee: There has been a shift in the last couple of months. You’ve said more often “you and the team” are doing a project. And you’re asking us to put our name on the work. There’s more of a shift to ‘us’ rather than ‘you’. None of us want to be the face of Brilliant Business Moms or to be Beth Anne. It’s not a competition. But it is fun that you’ve started putting, “Beth Anne and the Brilliant Business Moms Team” because we are a team and it takes all of us to get all of these crazy things done! Victoria: And it’s nice of you to admit. I imagine it would be tempting to and easier to just speak in the first person always. It’s nice to share the credit. It’s tricky to walk the line and preserve the brand that you’ve built up and who you are and how you help people, and acknowledge the team. Beth Anne: You don’t want to work for someone who takes all the credit all the time. Victoria: But I’m saying you could, though, if you wanted! It’s your brand. But it’s so nice of you to include “and the Team’. Carlee: And it’s practical. Because we get emails, addressed to us, in the inbox that you’d just pass along to me anyway. It’s more efficient. And it’s good that people know who to talk to. It doesn’t all have to come from Beth Anne all the time, because you can’t be everything to everyone. Beth Anne: It does set expectations up in a better way. This is a total team effort. I like that we get emails addressed to the team, like, “Hey, Carlee!” or “Hey, Ellen!” or “Hi Beth Anne and Team!” because it means they don’t expect email answers only from me. And I’m not setting people up for disappointment. Ellen: And it fits really well with the BBM brand. How it started was a podcast that is all about the community and these women who are building businesses, it’s always been about that. And it’s neat to see the community come about as a team, too. Our team is a small part of the community, and we are also part of the bigger community, and we’re all working together. Beth Anne: Yeah, I have no intention of being a weird internet celebrity where people care about what I eat for breakfast. That’s totally differently than saying, “We are Brilliant Business Moms.” I would never want to be BethAnneSchwamberger dot com. That would be stupid long, for one. But it goes back to the brand always being about a community of moms, not one person. Carlee: And there are plenty of questions we get that both Beth Anne and I know Ellen needs to answer. It’s not even just the four of us, it’s the four of us and these incredible women in our community. We learn from them every day too, and they know things we don’t know. Brilliant Business Moms as a whole is not about celebrity. We’re about community. Beth Anne: Well thank you ladies for hanging out with me today. I feel like you each have a lot more to share because you’re all fabulous employees and I love having you on my team. And just an aside, this is seriously how much fun we all have together. We literally just got off topic for 30 mins talking about childbirth and labor because these ladies are awesome. Thanks for listening. Now it’s your turn to head out there and Be Brilliant!

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Ellen Siminoff President and CEO, Shmoop University Date: June 1, 2009 Ellen Siminoff: Shmoop University Lucy Sanders: Hi, this is Lucy Sanders. I'm the CEO of the National Center for Women & Information Technology, or NCWIT, and this is one of a continuing series of interviews that we're doing with really just outstanding women who have started IT companies. With me is Larry Nelson from W3W3.com. Hi, Larry and welcome. Larry Nelson: I am so happy to be here. This is going to be a very interesting interview. As we get into it Ellen is going to see that there's some similarities between us. Lucy: Well, that's a pretty scary thought. Larry: Yeah, it is; isn't it? Lucy: Ellen, run. Today we are interviewing Ellen Siminoff, and she is the President and CEO of Shmoop University. Now, this site is something that our listeners really must go and see. They have a great mission. Shmoop is an education Website, and their goal is to make everyone lovers of literature, history and poetry. I went there last night and started looking around, and I really like the idea of their Book Club where they review books and even have questions for teachers to use with books, and I thought it was really fascinating that people creating their content, master's degree students and Ph.D. students, really looking for great original and creative content to help students and teachers. I found a little humor on the site as well, so it really cracked me up. Shmoop guarantees better grades. There was an asterisk next to it, and it said: "not an actual guarantee." Anyway, welcome, Ellen, we're really happy to have you for this interview. Ellen Siminoff: Thanks for the great review of this site. That was great. Lucy: Well, we're really happy to have you and before we get into the entrepreneur questions, I really wanted to know how you came up with the name, "Shmoop," and what's going on with the company. Ellen: Well, I started the company with my husband. Shmoop is a Yiddish term for trying to move something forward a little bit. So, my husband's grandmother always used to say to him, "Shmoop this, shmoop that" so we're trying to move education and learning forward a little bit. Larry: Shmoop, I love it. Lucy: I love it. Down in Louisiana we used to say we were carrying somebody from here to there, even though you're actually driving them. Now, we can say we shmoop around. Larry: I'm for shmooping. Lucy: I'm for shmooping. Well so, Ellen, how did you first get into technology? You are using technology in the delivery of your company, obviously, and so our listeners would really like to know what you're looking at as particularly interesting technologies today. Ellen: I got into technology because I was really interested in media, and media became very important to technology. I started a different company with my husband many, many years ago. It was about 18 years ago, and we were distributing television programming in eastern Europe and that made me love the media industry. Then I went to the Los Angeles Times, and I started running their online Classifieds. This was really early. It was like 1994 when the Internet, and if you remember Prodigy and CompuServe and AOL were all fighting it out. I started realizing that technology could be used to deliver media in a really interesting way. Larry: Wow, that's terrific. Remember, I warned you up front that there's something that we have in common. First of all, on your Website there's so many things I like about your Website, but I am also, like you, a lover of chocolate. Ellen: All right. Larry: I'm a cheese head. I used to live in Wisconsin. Ellen: All right. Larry: And I still struggle with golf, so I think that's enough similarities, right? Ellen: Those are great similarities, but have you been shot? Larry: No, but I almost shot my dad when we were hunting once. Lucy: Have you been shot? I'm sure there's more to that story. Larry: It's on the Website. Lucy: Oh, I better go look at that part of it. Well so, Ellen, I was sitting here thinking about technology today. Do you see any particular technologies on the horizon that you think are pretty interesting? Ellen: I'm a big lover of the Kindle. I think the approach Amazon and, obviously, some others in that space have taken about taking a text book and providing a much easier way for students to get their information. I think it's fabulous. I think, first of all, we don't need to have orthopedic problems from carrying around back packs loaded with books, and second, text books are really expensive. They has to be a less expensive way to deliver the same amount of material, so I'm really excited about that one. Larry: Yeah, I am, too. Now that they've got the new, big one, I like that even more. Ellen: As I get older, the bigger print would be fine. Lucy: I see them on planes more and more now. Ellen: Yes, I actually always bring mine every time I travel because, why lug a book around? Larry: Right, you bet. Well, I get the part about technology and all, but why are you an entrepreneur, and what is it about you that makes the entrepreneur part of you tick? Ellen: Well, I think entrepreneurs are people who would be just dreadful employees... because it's chosen for us. For me, I have always sort of gone with smaller companies that I like the people and the idea. When I started Yahoo, we were just a handful of folks, and we thought we were changing the world. Hopefully, we did to some extent. I started up Fischer Frontier which subsequently became the largest search engine marketing firm when it was just a couple of guys with a really neat math algorithm. Shmoop, my husband and I came up with in our back yard. So, for me it's about the idea and the people and the excitement of creating it. The other benefit of being an entrepreneur is you have very little bureaucracy. When a decision needs to be made, you sort of look around at your four or five key people and you resolve it quickly, and that's exciting for me. Lucy: So, along your path you're a serial entrepreneur and you've had a lot of success along your path, who has influenced or supported you? Who are your role models? Ellen: Well, if it hasn't become clear, my husband has been really supportive which I think is great. We've worked together a number of times, and he's pushed me more than I probably would have pushed myself. I have phenomenal parents who basically told me dream big and we're your number one fans, whatever you want to do. So, they've been great, and I've had some terrific teachers along the way. Back to the Wisconsin thing, I had a great eighth grade teacher at Mapledale Elementary School who told me, "You might be pretty smart. Think about what you might want to do in life". I was in eighth grade, and I still remember that conversation. Lucy: Isn't it amazing that you do? That kind of influence on young people by teachers, it really sticks. Ellen: It's amazing. We actually have a page on Shmoop, a teachers' page, that we literally went to the Ph.D.s and Masters I alluded to before and all of us here at the office have said, "So which teacher influenced you the most?" We wound up with this great list of our favorite teachers and how they impacted our lives. And I think that every person who's reasonably successful can identify one of the teachers who made a big difference to them. Larry: Oh, that's fantastic. You know, you mentioned you and your husband. My wife and I, we've started 12 different companies over the years, and it's an extra little plus that as an entrepreneur you can do that. Ellen: That's great. That's inspirational. We have a few more to go. Larry: Well, OK. I'm just a kid, but... Ellen, what is the toughest thing that you have ever had to do in your career? Ellen: Oh, I think the toughest thing anyone has to do is ask someone to leave a company when that person is doing a good job, but they're somehow... morals or conduct or behavior goes against what you want your company to do. I think any CEO or hiring person will tell you, that's the hardest call you ever have to make. Lucy: And, in fact, I think we've done about 50 of these interviews, and that comes up over and over and over again, I think, along with having to leave a company you don't want to leave. Ellen: Yeah, transitions are very hard. I think transitions in life are very hard, and transitions in companies are very hard. The reality is, there's a certain number of years when you're productive to a company, and even if you're doing a good job, you reach a certain comfort level, and sometimes it makes sense to bring in some fresh blood. Lucy: I think that's right, if for no other reason that your network's been tapped out, or something else, that other people can bring in new thinking. So, this gets us into our next question. I think this notion that transitions are hard is really insightful. What other things would you tell a young person or anybody about entrepreneurship, and what kinds of advice would give them? Ellen: I think there's two things I would tell someone. The first is a practical thing, which is, do something you love, and do it with people you love or like, and all good things will come from that. I can't tell you the number of people who turn down great opportunities because their friends told them it was a bad idea, or it didn't fit in the sort of boxes that they had been taught in business school about how to evaluate an idea, or someone told them the business is going to be bad. So, you've got to, a lot of times, go with your instincts, and go with the businesses that make sense to you, and that you doing it, and with people you like, and then I would bet the percentages are in your favor. The second idea I would have for someone is a little less practical, but more of a gut instinct thing, and that is, don't worry so much. I think if you work hard, and you get a little bit lucky, and your timing is good, you will find good opportunities. If I had known how much fun I would have had doing different things, I wouldn't have worried so much along the way. Larry: Wow. Lucy: Is there a Yiddish word for, "Don't worry so much?" Ellen: No, I don't know that one, but I'll have to call my dad. Lucy: I think it could lead to a new company name. Ellen: I always think of, hakuna matata, right? Lucy: Yes, that's right. Exactly. But, I think you're right. Ellen: It's not Yiddish, but it should be. Larry: You got it. Lucy: It probably should be. Larry: Well, I've got to ask another question here that pertains to everything we've talked about so far, but we're now looking at you. What are some personal characteristics that make you a successful entrepreneur? Ellen: I think it's relentlessness, right? I think anybody's who's willing to face in the Internet world zero wages, zero revenue, you know, and a blank sheet of paper, I think yes, you have to have a certain passion, and relentlessness, and drive, and be internally focused, that you don't need someone every day telling you, "This is a great idea. You're going to do great." You've got to just have it from within and be laser-focused on executing. Lucy: I'm just writing this down. I mean, I think the laser focus is exactly right, and the relentlessness, you know, we've heard before, as well. Some people have said even, "stubborn," or... Ellen: I don't know that I would necessarily always write stubborn, because there's a fine line between being crazy and being brilliant. Lucy: That's true. Ellen: Most of the people will tell you that their original idea was not always their final idea, so you need to have a balance of having great conviction in what your doing, but being flexible with what the environment is telling you. Lucy: So, you had a very successful career starting companies, and obviously when you start a company, I'm sure you put everything into it, and give it your all, and people often want to know, well, how then do you balance that with a personal life, if, in fact, balance really exists? Ellen: Oh, I believe in balance. I think you set limits. I think that working smart is a lot better than working every hour of every day. I think being efficient matters. I've seen people take so much time to do something, where that could be done a lot quicker, and I sometimes think when you have more things to do, you're more focused about the things you have to get done. In terms of balance, you just have to. Nobody goes to their grave saying, "I wish I would have worked harder." Lucy: Absolutely. Ellen: I have a great family. I run half-marathons. I have deadly, struggling golf game, and I think the Spectaculars are the most fun, coolest organization on earth. So, you've got to get out there and do other thing, and I think you have a better approach to work when you do. Larry: That's some excellent advice. Gaining balance, or whatever that is, is one of the most difficult thing for new entrepreneurs, but they've got to somehow, as time goes along, really build that balance into their life. Ellen: Oh, you're so right. And you've gone on with your life, so it's especially... I do know couples where one of them doesn't like to come home and talk about work or the other doesn't. We just incorporate it in our lives. Lucy: There's an integration process there, I think. Ellen: Yeah. But at the same point, there are points, you know, my husband... you know, sometimes people are amazed that they'll say something to Dave, and he'll say, "Well, I don't know about this, that's in Ellen's area." And they think that all we do 100 percent of the time is only talk our business stuff, and there are sometimes many days we don't even discuss anything "businessy." Lucy: Well, that's so healthy, and also, you find things that way. Sometimes you find things when you just open up like that, that relate to the business that you never would have seen if you were just working all the time. So, that's very powerful. So, Ellen, you've achieved a lot, and we like to find out from the people we interview what's next for you. You obviously have a new company and so you'll probably be putting a lot of time into that, but anything else you'd like to share, either what's next for you, or what's next for Shmoop? Ellen: Well, I think for Shmoop, I think we've done a really good job on lit., and history and poetry. We're going to do more in civics and get some of the math and sciences up there, because I think it's really important to be able to read, write, and do arithmetic. So, we've got to add the third stool. Lucy: Well, we'd really like to talk about computing. Ellen: Oh, wow, that would be great! Lucy: Well, thank you so much. I just love your site. Larry: I love your site, and I just want to say this one thing. Lucy referred to this, but she buried it a little bit. Right off of your Website, one headline there that really caught my attention said, "Shmoop wants to make you a better lover." Lucy: Of literature. Larry: Well, then, in parenths. Lucy: Oh. Larry: "Of literature, history, poetry, and writing. I'm just getting in the complete line." Lucy: Oh, OK. Ellen: Well, you know, if you just become a better lover, that'd be OK, too, but we'd like you to like lit., history, and poetry. Larry: Oh, a fellow cheese head for sure. Thank you so much, Ellen, for joining us today. Ellen: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Larry: And by the way, you listeners out there, make sure you pass this interview on to others that you know would be interested, and they can find the entire thing, and download it at any time at ncwit.org, as well as w3w3.com. Thank you for joining us. Lucy: Thank you. Transcription by CastingWords Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Ellen SiminoffInterview Summary: Entrepreneurs are "people who would be just dreadful employees", says Ellen Siminoff. For those who go the entrepreneurship route, however, the appeal is in "the idea and the people and the excitement of creating something." Release Date: June 1, 2009Interview Subject: Ellen SiminoffInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry NelsonDuration: 15:42