Podcasts about so nicole

For the 254th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Amisha Shrimanker hops on to talk all about her journey from order taker to CEO. Amisha is the founder of The Copy Crew and their focus is copy for online business coaches. As business owners, we don't always give ourselves the permission to get things wrong, but Amisha looks at this from a different perspective. Here's what we talk about: Writing copy without knowing you're writing copy. Finding the right community to propel your business and skillset forward. How to write pitches that land you the job. The reality of beginner pricing. Do you need to settle? Going from order taker to 20k months in 18 months. Sending people to junior copywriters when they want to haggle. The pros and cons of being the order taker. Note: Learn all you can. The better way to land big clients. Why you need to document your copywriting process. How to get extra validation from your clients. (even if it doesn't pay.) The reality of hustle and the benefits it can bring you in the long run. Getting the best case studies to showcase your work and results. Hiring someone to ask your client questions about you. Win-Win? Being on the other side of the interview. The interviewer becomes the interviewee. Getting the most out of job boards and paying for connections. How to do more than just “done for you” work. Why you shouldn't let inexperience hold you back. Shifting your mindset from scarcity to abundance. How surrounding yourself with high-achieving people will propel you 10 steps forward. Building trust with your clients and demonstrating your expertise. When is enough learning, enough? Is it time to say no to more courses? Leveling up from skillbuilding to strategy-building. Can audits be profitable in your business? Hit the play button to listen to Amisha's genius or read the transcript below.   The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira's website Rob's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Amisha's website Nicole's website   Full Transcript: Rob:  If you're a longtime listener to The Copywriter Club podcast, you've heard hundreds of copywriters share their stories over the last four years. And while we talk about the struggles that copywriters have from time to time, the big focus of our interviews is the success that so many copywriters are having in their businesses. Our guest today is Amisha Shrimanker. Amisha has a counter intuitive process for finding success. It's all about choosing lots of ways to fail each week or each month, and then going after those failures with serious intensity. But the result isn't failure, it's actually success. And we can't wait to share this interview with you in just a minute. But first, you're still on maternity leave, and I want to introduce my co host for today, Nicole Morton. Nicole, how are you? Nicole:  Good. Thank you so much for having me. This is such a treat. Rob:  Yeah, this is going to be fun. So Nicole, for those of you who don't know her, she's a copywriter, brand strategist, really a creative genius. I know she doesn't want to own that title. But it's true. She's a member of our think tank, and she's been a longtime member of the copywriter underground, and she is the CEO, chief writer at the creatively named Nicole Morton Agency, so you can check her out there. And before we get to our interview with Amisha, this is the last time that I'm going to mention this for a while. But the Copywriter accelerator is open for two more days. If you're listening as this episode drops, it will close tomorrow, midnight September 1st year 2021. And if you are looking for a program that will help you set your business on the right foundation moving forward so that you're ready in 2022 for the success that you want to create in your business, if you need help with things like mindset and creating packages and the cl...

They called me Nicole. It wasn’t until my mother died that I found out my real name. But it didn’t matter Nicole was me now. She was the strong one. At 8yrs old she was ripped her innocence to quench a pedophile’s thirst. & with her little legs she kicked, scratch, & squirmed. She yelled out knowing no one would come. The fight only turned him on. So Nicole had to be the strong one. Nicole got good grades while Tangela was the beast. But when the real monster reared his face did Tangela become the weak. So Nicole stayed in the paint until the abuse was done. Nicole never asked for Tangela’s strength she knew It was act of self defense. The real enemy was blood but the world had to feel her wrath. Nicole carried the pain, the dreams, the sexual abuse so Tangela could survive the day. So when you see Tangela Collins just know Nicole is one call away.-ShunJai Guest: Tangela Collins --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

In this episode, Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, Dr. Nicole Surdyka, talks about on-field rehab after ACL injury. Nicole is currently the Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, one of the founding clubs of the National Women’s Soccer League, NWSL, which is one of the best professional women’s soccer leagues in the world. Today, Nicole shares her 5-phase on-field rehab strategy, and the decision-making process in return-to-play and return-to-performance. What are the criteria that Nicole looks at to determine progress to the next phase of rehab? She tells us about delaying return to sport to reduce second-injury risk, the return to sport continuum and how to define it, and the use of the StARRT framework for the return-to-sport decision-making. Nicole gives some valuable advice to her younger self, she tells us about integrating rehab with team activities, and communicating with athletes and coaches, all on today’s episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways Nicole implements on-field rehab in 5 phases. Phase 1: Simple, pre-planned, linear movements. The focus is on quality of movement and cleaning up movement technique before moving on. Typically includes walking marches, walking lunges, side shuffles, and jogging. Nicole starts this at 70-75 quad strength limb symmetry index. Phase 2: Pre-planned direction-changing movements. Typically includes accelerations, decelerations, sprinting, and change direction. Phase 3: Adding reactive tasks without a soccer ball. Direction-changing with an element of reacting to an external event. Nicole starts this with at least 80% quad strength limb symmetry index. Phase 4: Soccer-specific movements. The reactions are done in context – with a soccer ball. Phase 5: This phase should look like a modified training session. Delaying return to sport: each month that you delay that, there’s a 51% reduction in second-injury risk, up until the 9-month mark. Return-to-participation: When athletes are participating in their sport in a modified way – participation with certain limitations on activities. Return-to-sport: When there is no longer any medical reason to limit an athlete’s participation – “cleared to play”. Return-to-performance: There are no restrictions and athletes are training to become better at their sport. “Be patient. Every experience is valuable, and you can relate any experience to what you eventually end up doing.”   Suggested Keywords On-field Rehabilitation, StARRT, Injuries, ACL, Sport, Performance, Physiotherapy, PT, Therapy, Wellness, Health, Injury-Prevention, Recovery,   Recommended reading: Consensus statement on return to sport: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27226389/ On-field rehabilitation Part 1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31291553/ On-field rehabilitation Part 2: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31291556/   More about Dr. Surdyka:  Nicole is currently the Director of Rehabilitation at OL Reign, one of the founding clubs of the National Women’s Soccer League, NWSL, which is one of the best professional women’s soccer leagues in the world. Nicole is a physical therapist and strength and conditioning coach. She played Division 1 college soccer at St. John’s University and then went to Emory University where she got her Doctor of Physical Therapy Degree. Throughout college and PT school, Nicole coached youth soccer and worked as a personal trainer. After PT, school Nicole worked in various outpatient orthopaedic and sports medicine clinics before starting her own practice in 2018 where she worked with youth to professional athletes. Nicole specializes in on-field rehab for soccer players to help bridge the gap between rehab and sport performance. She is passionate about the return to sport process and how we can make better decisions for athletes returning to sport after an injury. Nicole has a website where she writes blog posts on rehab for soccer players, has eBooks available on specific injuries, teaches continuing education courses, and has presented at CSM and other national and international sports medicine conferences. To learn more, follow Nicole at: Website:          Nicole Surdyka Physio Facebook:       Nicole Surdyka Physio Instagram:       @dr.nicolept LinkedIn:         Nicole Surdyka PT Twitter:            @NSurdykaPhysio YouTube:        Nicole Surdyka   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the transcript here:  Speaker 1 (00:00): Hey, Nicole, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you on. Speaker 2 (00:05): Thanks. I'm excited to be on. Speaker 1 (00:07): So this whole month we're talking about ACL injury and ACL rehab, and you are an expert in both. So I'm really excited to have you as one of the guests this month. And today we're going to be talking about something that is really your zone of genius, and that is the on-field rehab, a rehab techniques, I guess, that helped to bring that player back to performance. So can you talk about what is the on field rehab like? Speaker 2 (00:45): Yeah. So I guess it's a concept that I, you know, I was a soccer player. I was a youth soccer coach, and so I always kind of felt in the back of my mind when I was going through PT school, like, Oh, wow, I could blend. Like, if, if we're trying to get this adaptation or build up this physical attribute, we could do that through soccer. And so it just made, it was something that made sense to me trying to incorporate the sport as much as possible, but where it really all clicked and came together. For me, it was actually at the isokinetic conference that I went to a few years ago in Barcelona. And actually your previous guest on this in Arundale was the one who talked me into going. So that was great. And I saw a presentation by Matt Thorpe about on-field rehab. And of course he and Francesco via have published two different articles in WSPT on this, but kind of seeing that presentation really yeah, tied it all Speaker 1 (01:42): Together and made me have that aha moment Speaker 2 (01:44): Like, Oh, this is a thing I can make this happen. And so really what it is is it helps to bridge that gap between the gym-based rehab and then sending the athlete back for their sport. Because if you think about it, there's so much of a difference between doing a drop vertical jump in the gym and then landing from a head ball on the field. Like not even just physically that's different because the surface is different. Your shoe wear is different. The weather obviously is different, but there's also different things in your environment to make decisions based off of, and react to and respond to. So where are my teammates in space? Where is my opponent? Am I going to have a contact or an indirect contact, a perturbation while I'm in the air that I have to land on? Funny, where do I have to redirect my Ron to afterwards? Speaker 2 (02:34): And you can only prep for that so much in the gym. And at some point you really need to get them on the field and do in a controlled way, what they're going to have to do when they're playing with their team again. So on-field rehab. The way that I implement it is really based off of Matt, Matt backdoor, Ben for Jessica, Davey is research and there are papers on it, which is phase one, really simple pre-planned linear movements. And so that can start fairly early. They say in their paper that they want to start. When the athlete has 80% quad strength, limb symmetry index, I tend to start a little bit earlier than that. Typically, when I'm having athletes jog, then they can be doing phase one. So things like walking marches, walking lunges side shuffling is okay in this phase, jogging anything that the athlete is has pre-planned, it's a pre-planned movement and it's just linear. Speaker 2 (03:34): So no changes of direction yet. And in this phase, we really focus on quality of movement. And we start to address here before they move on to more complex tasks we address are they moving efficiently? And are there things we need to clean up with the technique of their movement? So something like a high skip or a walking March, are they getting a lot of trunk lean? Are they yeah. Are they kind of like looking like Gumby out there? And so we need to clean that up a little bit, and this is the phase that we can really take the time to do that. So again, I like to start this pretty early. Typically I want them to be at least 70 to 75% quad strength, limb symmetry index. But the, just as a caveat to that, the paper by Francesco and met, like they're up says 80%. Speaker 2 (04:27): So just be aware of that phase two, they then move on to being able to change direction. Everything is still pre-planned. So we can take those linear movements from phase one and make them a little bit more intense. So we can start working on reaching towards accelerations decelerations, maximum speed. So we start to work on sprinting here and exposing them to high-speed running on the multi-directional staff. We can have them do anything pre-planned so no reactive tasks yet, but they can start to cut decelerate, changed direction, all controlled everything throughout the unfilled rehab program is control first. Then we build volume and intensity. So after phase two, we can progress them to phase three. Now for this, I definitely want them to be at least 80% quad strength, limb symmetry index. And I would love for them even to be closer to 85% and depending on how they look functionally. Speaker 2 (05:29): And so this is when we start to add reactive tasks. So now change of direction tasks, but with a reactive component. So they're reacting to something external to them. So I like to mix up and I know Amy talks about internal versus external cues a little bit. And it's something that definitely is coming up a lot in ACL research with motor learning is that we want some external cues. And so that can be auditory. That can be visual. So I like to do kind of a combination of both. I'll use words that they're going to hear while they're on the field. So turn man on ball, you know, I'll use kind of those that verbiage. And then the visual is you can make it just simple. You pointing to where they have to cut to or change direction to. You can make it be, they have to follow the ball, they have to follow a runner. Speaker 2 (06:25): So they have to follow where the space is that you've set up with, however, you've set up the environment. So that's where we add the reactive components and they anything pre-planned they can now be doing at speed. Next, we're going to go into phase four, which is really going to be more soccer, specific movements. So now they can react with a soccer ball. So everything we didn't base three with the reactive movements is them without a ball at their feet. Now in phase four, we can add a soccer ball. So you have to turn and either dribble, dribble, or pass, or you know, you have to collect the ball and then make a decision based on what's going on around you or what the coach or the physio calls out. And then phase five really should just look like a training session, a modified training session. So I try to replicate what the team has done in their training session or what a typical team training session would look like as much as I possibly can within a more controlled environment. So that's kind of the five phases and then, yeah, and then I started to incorporate them into the team. Okay. Speaker 1 (07:32): So let's, I have a couple of questions. So we're just going to back up a little bit. So for most of these phases, certainly phase one phase two phase three is the player is the player alone on the field? Do they, are they working in tandem with another player on their team? Speaker 2 (07:50): So typically when I was, before I had my current role, I had my own practice and I would work with the athletes. So it would be me and the athlete. If they had a friend or a teammate who was available, it's always nice to add other players. Now here at LL rain. I have two athletes right now who are going through ACL rehab together, kind of they're at a little bit different spots, but I can still work together with them, which is really nice. And then I can always pull some of the other players. So, Hey, do you want to work on crossing and finishing today? Great, like come in for this session this time and I can pull other players and you can do it alone. Eventually you need to start adding other players because there's 22 people on a soccer field. And so they need to start being able to move and react to all of those different people on the field, around them. And you can still do that in a controlled fashion. Absolutely. Speaker 1 (08:51): I will say to, to play or one, I want you to run down to line and cut to the right as your athlete is within the midst of whatever you're asking them to do from a rehab standpoint. Correct. Speaker 2 (09:03): Exactly. You can say, okay, you're going to run up and defend them. I want you to force them to their right. You know, so that way I have that person has to go to their right, so you can control for it. Whereas in a game you can't tell them, or an even in a practice session with their team, you can't say to all the other players on the field, Hey, when you go and defend, so-and-so only for, for her to her right foot, okay. That's never going to happen, but in that nice in on-field rehab, you can control for those things. And Speaker 1 (09:31): The other question I have was what is the criteria for entering phase two? Speaker 2 (09:35): Good. So, and answering into any onto three high program. I mentioned the quad strength, limb symmetry index, but also there should be no joint pain or a fusion. They can have some muscle soreness at times if they had a patella tendon graft they can have some patella tendon pain. I'm okay with that. Hamstring graft, if they have hamstring pain, I'm okay with that. But, and then also no joint laxity. So I'll typically just do a Lockman's anterior drawer test, as long as those are negative and there's no joint fusion, then we're good to go. Now it's progressed through each stage, subsequent to that, as long as they're able to do those movements with control, and there's no increase in joint pain or a fusion during any of those stages, then I can progress them. Although I still want to bear in mind, like we're not just going to do walk like phase one stuff. Speaker 2 (10:27): And then it's like, Oh, they felt good. Okay. Now we can do phase two. Like I still want to make sure that we get a couple sessions in and it's always going to play back into the overall big picture of where they're at in their rehab. You know, we're still doing a gym-based strength program at the same time that we're complementing with on-field rehab. So it that's where it kind of the the art of coaching takes in a little bit. And you just need to understand where your athlete is and if they still need more time in that area before moving on. Got it. And Speaker 1 (10:59): I know this is a question that a lot of people constantly ask when it comes to ACL, what is the timeline? Right. You know, cause you're always here. You don't want to return to play for a year for 10 months, nine months, a year, two years. So as you are going through these phases, are you also taking into account where they are in that rehab continuum or in, you know, post-surgical so how do you question Speaker 2 (11:26): W so it's kind of the, the short answer to that question is we can go back to some of the research that's been done by the Delaware Oslo cohort, so that, Hey, grandam over at Oslo and Lynn center Mackler at Delaware, and they've shown that delaying return to sport each month that you delay that there's a 51% reduction in second injury risk. And really the whole thing of this is when we're sending out fleets back to sport after an ACL reconstruction, our goal is to not allow that to happen again, right? The rate of a secondary injury is so high that there's obviously a flaw in how we're sending athletes back. So I think that most athletes go back too soon. And so each month that we delay up until the nine month Mark and at nine months, we, after that, we don't really see that level of reduction in, in, in second injury risk. Speaker 2 (12:22): Now for a youth player, who's not really in a rush to get back. I will probably never let them go back before a year. I just, there was no reason it's not worth the risk. They're agreed so much more likely to have another injury. And like, why have two ACL injuries in high school before you even get to college? Right. If the goal is to, is to play in college, you're better off missing your entire junior year of high school to just rehab and then be really strong for your senior year. As opposed to feeling like, Oh, I have to show college coaches. I have to go to all these college showcase tournaments, which I know is, is pressure on the athletes, but what does it, do you any good if you go back and now you do it again and you miss all of senior year as well, right then by college, like that's not going to happen for you. Right. So more of the professional athletes, there's a little bit more pressure, it's their livelihood. Right. So I'm okay with moving or even college athletes. I'm okay with moving closer to nine months, but I will never go before that, unless I have somebody like an Adrian Peterson who is just one of those outliers, then they have to give me a really good reasons to let them go back. Speaker 1 (13:33): Okay. And this actually flows perfectly into the next topic I wanted to talk about. And that is that decision-making for return to performance, right? So we've got the return to play. And even if you want to talk a little bit about that distinction between return to play and return to performance and talk a little bit about what your your decision-making Speaker 2 (13:57): Is like. Yeah. So to talk about that continuum a little bit, and actually I just had a meeting with our coaching staff here about that to make sure you're on the same page about these definitions. And so how I define them is based off of the return to sport a consensus statement for that Claire and was lead author on where the return to participation phase is when, or end of the continuum is when athletes are participating in their sport, but in a modified way. So I have a couple athletes now who I say, I look at what the daily session plan is for, for the training session. And I'll say, okay, this athlete can do the technical warmup and they can do the [inaudible], but I don't want them doing the two V twos because it's too much deceleration cutting, et cetera. So they, that counts as returned to participation because they're participating, but I'm still putting restrictions or limitations on them. Speaker 2 (14:53): So anytime there's any kind of modification or restriction or limitation there in returned to participation, when the medical, when there are no longer any medical reasons to hold an athlete back, that's when they're in return to sport. So that's what I would define as saying like you're quote, unquote, clear to play, right? Is that I'm not putting any restriction on you, if you are not being selected for playing time or for your starting position. That's because the coach isn't selecting you, not because I'm holding you back, but then beyond that, because sometimes an athlete's not going to really be satisfied with that outcome, right? If you're used to being the starting center forward and scoring a goal, a game, and now you're cleared, but you're not being selected into the starting lineup, or you're not being selected to the game day roster, or you are, but you haven't scored a goal in five games. Speaker 2 (15:44): Now you're not performing at where you were prior to your injury. So there's no medical reason to hold you back, but maybe you're not playing as much or playing as well as you would like to be. And that's where we transition into return to performance. So return to performance is there's no restrictions on you, no medical limitations or anything holding, holding you back from a rehab perspective. And now we're training to get you to being better at your sport. And I think those are really important distinctions to make, because a lot of times athletes or coaches, and actually it will be back and cleared to play, but coaches like, well, why isn't she as fast as she used to be? Why isn't she scoring goals? Like she used to be? Is she still hurt? It's like, no, it medically fine, but we're just not at return to performance yet. Speaker 2 (16:33): So then to to kind of decide when to send an athlete back for each of those things, I tend to look back to the on-field rehab program and how that is structured. So I'm a big fan of integrating the team, the athlete into team activities as often, and as much as you possibly can. So if they're able to do the technical warmup with the team, I'm putting them in there because, and that would technique that would typically be if they're in stage two, right. Cause it's going to be mostly pre-planned change of direction tasks, maybe some accelerations D cells, depending on, on what the warmup looks like. Sometimes there's reactive components. And so that sometimes takes just a conversation with the performance director or the SNC coach or the sport coaches, just to say, what is involved in this? And then, you know, but if you, if that athlete is able to do those things and they've done them with you and an on-field rehab program, send them back into the team. Speaker 2 (17:33): Cause that is just to me is another level of like the cognitive awareness and their ability to see what's going on on the field, around them and adding more athletes into the mix that they have to interact with. So I'm a big fan of that. So I'll typically have them in that return to participation phase for a fairly long time, like a few months before I say, okay, you're good. So, and the example right now, I have an athlete, who's doing portions of training sessions, but I probably won't like clear her quote unquote, clear her to play in a game until somewhere in the middle of April. Right. So she'll be, Speaker 1 (18:16): Is she about like six months then? Post ACL? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I think it's important to mention all of this because oftentimes a lot of physical therapists and I, this is not to throw our profession under the bus or anything, but a lot of physical therapists tend to be a little bit more restrained. They won't want them to go onto field. They won't want them to do this on-field rehab until they're at 90%. Right. And or until the doctor clears them to return to play well, you can't just be cleared to return to play. And you've only done a weight training program, proprioception, maybe some motor control stuff and then throw somebody on a field. Speaker 2 (18:56): Yeah. And I've seen that way too often. Speaker 1 (18:59): Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, I think that I'm really happy that you're saying like, Hey, you know, at six months they can be with the team, they can do some things. It just, it sounds to me like it's a lot of communication and collaboration from the, all of the stakeholders, right? Speaker 2 (19:14): It is, it does take a lot of communication. And we have twice a day meetings, constant emails, constant communication about where each athlete is. And then, you know, there is things that come up that we have to adapt to, like this was the training session plan. And this athlete was going to be able to do this amount of load that day. And then based on what was happening in the session, the plan changed. And so we have to adapt to that. And then we just supplement that with it with more on field work, you know, if they weren't able to do as much in the session with the team, then I just will take them to the side and do more work with them on the field. Now I will say that this is a lot easier to do in a team setting. And now I didn't work in a team setting for most, all of my career up until very recently. Speaker 2 (20:01): And so what I did in that situation, working in an outpatient clinic, that doesn't mean that this doesn't apply to you because you can still use this. And so what I used to do is whatever I would see my athlete do in the clinic with me or on the field with me, I would say, okay, I want you to go do this in practice with your team. So I want you to do the dynamic warmup with your team and then that's it. And then report back to me if that felt okay for them, then I'll say, okay, you can do any technical drill. You can do rondos, you can do, you know, possession style games but no contact. You can be neutral player. And I'll tell the athlete that depending on their age, I'll also tell their parents I do or did before I was in my current, always try to reach out to their club coach or their high school or college coach and let them know what the restrictions were. I understand sometimes we don't get responses when we reach out. I didn't always get responses when I reached out. But as long as you talk to the athlete and or their parent about that, and just make it very clear to them, like you can do this, you can not do that and then have them report back. But I, my rule of thumb was I wanted to see them do that type of activity with me before I had them do it with their team. Speaker 1 (21:18): Makes sense. And, and I think it's also important to note that just because you work in an outpatient clinic, doesn't mean you can't take these athletes onto a field. I live in New York city. I see patients in their home. I have a 14 year old who had a ACL rupture and subsequent surgery. And when she was 12 she's 14 now. Wow. Yeah. And we still got her out onto a field, got her. We went to the park, we did as much as we could on field. And sometimes that was just me having to be the defender or setting up cones and having her do stuff. But I think it's really important that if you work in an outpatient clinic, don't kind of wall yourself in with the walls literally. Yeah, exactly. You can take them out onto a field somewhere. I mean, if I feel like if I can do it in the middle of Manhattan, then people could probably have a much easier time doing it in places with more space. Speaker 2 (22:15): Yeah. And I would even get like, I've worked in clinics where the only space we had was the parking lot. And maybe that's where we did that. Or again, you can always say like, okay, I've, we've done the 11 plus warmup in our, in our gym based sessions. So you can go do that with your team now. Or we've done some volleying and passing and moving, you just need 10 yards of space. Right. We've done that in the clinic. So now I want you to try that with your team, or can you go in the backyard with your mom, dad, sister, brother, whomever, teammate, friend. And I want you to do these types of exercises in your backyard, you know, like have that be their AGP instead of having them do straight leg raises for six months. I mean, I have that either ETP. Speaker 1 (23:06): Yeah. I had my patient probably much, much to her. Neighbors' dismay, but we would be in the hallway of the building. Yeah. Or go into the basement of a building. I see a girl now for she's a softball pitcher. We go into an empty storefront. That's kind of attached to the building. I mean, you make it work, you know, you just have to Speaker 2 (23:29): Exactly. And like, if you can't find a way to make it work, you have to ask yourself, should I really be working with this type of athlete? Right. If you can't find a way to give the athlete what they need to get back safely and appropriately, then maybe that's not the setting, the athlete to be seeing you. Speaker 1 (23:47): Right. So it's you do the, I call it the blessing release. Oh yes. More, you need more space, you need XYZ. So I'm going to release you to someone that can, can finish the job if you will. Speaker 2 (24:01): Exactly. And that takes, like, I feel like in all walks of life, like just not having an ego is such an important skill set to have. And just saying, I know that there's so much more that can be done for you. And I know that there are too many limitations on me to be able to do this. So here's someone who can help you and you should move on to this person. Speaker 1 (24:22): Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's fair. And again, patient centered. And when you think about that return to sport, decision-making a lot of Claire, our Dern's work is that patient centered decision returned to sport decision-making. And so what you just said is exactly that. And so I think it's important for people listening that it may not always be you. Yes. That is such an important point. Yeah. Now, is there anything that we missed or that I glossed over that you're like, Oh man, I really wanted to make this point. Did we hit everything? Yeah. We hit everything. Speaker 2 (24:57): The only thing I would add is just as something for people to maybe go look up and learn more about is in that consensus statement, they talk about the start framework and that's what I use to guide my return to sport. Decision-Making right. So it's really just a simple needs analysis. What are the demands that this athlete is going to have to face and are they prepared for those? And yeah. So the start framework is a really great method. It's what it's literally what I use to help guide decision-making because it doesn't just look at, like, it looks at the tissue health, it looks at the demands. It also looks at what are some modifiers of those. So is it preseason? And so we can err on the side of being a little conservative or are we in the playoffs and this is one of our star athletes and we need them on the field. And so we're willing to take a little bit more risk. So yeah, I think that that's a really important framework to utilize because it provides you with that context that surrounds the kind of the risk reward ratio. Speaker 1 (25:59): Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I said to my, this 12 year old, who's now 14, but you know, she, we waited a year, at least a year for return to sport and then COVID hit and that night Oh yeah. Which I have to say, I wasn't mad about two years, you know, that's awesome. But you know, like what I told her was exactly what you she's like, Oh, do you think I can like play in this, you know, showcase she's an eighth grade. Yeah. No Roland showcase. And I was like, listen, here's the deal. Can you do this? Yes. Will you be at your best? No. Are you going to college? Is if this, what? And I said, it was like, if this was your senior year and it was the last game Speaker 2 (26:45): Sure. Have at it, you know, Speaker 1 (26:47): But it's not, so you're not going to do it. Are we in agreement there? And, and that's the hard part, right. Is trying to say to like a 12 or 13 was 13 or 14, 13 maybe was, do you want to play in high school? Yes. Would you like to play in college? Yes. Well then you don't need to do this exam because we're not taking any unnecessary risks and that's kind of, how did that start framework is looking at that context and I'm sure you have those difficult conversations all the time. Speaker 2 (27:15): All the time. Yeah. It, and especially after something like Nazi has already been cleared by a physician or previous physical therapist or athletic trainer or whomever, and then it's like, Oh no, I know that you were cleared, but we'll, you are certainly not ready. And just having that conversation can be difficult, but as super important, because all they're going to do is go right back. And the likelihood of them getting another ACL injury within the first year or two is pretty substantial. So sometimes scare tactics, work a little in that regard. Speaker 1 (27:46): And it's not, it's just, you're just being honest. Yeah. Like you can't like, you're the professional, you're the expert. They're the patient they're going to you because you're the expert. Yeah. Right. And so you have to be honest and you have to be upfront and you have to give them all of the options that they have and looking at things realistically, because just, you know, people say, Oh, runners, they just want to run. Well, it's the same with any sport soccer players. They just want to play soccer, football, I just want to play. And so there there's a lot of mental gymnastics that can happen in one's brains in order to justify doing that. Speaker 2 (28:21): Definitely. I think athletes actually appreciate that when you say like, like maybe in the moment they're frustrated, but it's not with you. It's just with the situation. And I think that makes it easier to swallow is that like, Hey, like they appreciate knowing that you're taking that context into consideration. Like, say like, Hey, if you're going to get re-injured, it's going to be in the championship game, not in a preseason friendly, like what sense does that make? And I think they do for the most part, appreciate that and understand it. Even if, again, in the moment it frustrates them a little bit. Yeah. Speaker 1 (28:51): I mean, there's a little bit of disappointment, but you know, something it's upsetting Speaker 2 (28:56): Templating moment. Get over it. You'll be fine. I feel the same. Exactly. I've never said that, but in my head I'm like, you'll be fine. You'll be to sign. Yeah. Like 10 years. That's fine. If you do it again and have to go through another year of this Speaker 1 (29:09): Exactly. Like 10 years from now, you're not going to be like, man, I didn't get to play in this showcase when I was in eighth grade. Speaker 2 (29:17): Yeah. Definitely not. It doesn't make sense. Speaker 1 (29:20): So I think thank you for bringing up that start framework and we'll try and get links to all of this and put them into the show notes so that everyone if you're looking for those papers on on-field rehab, the start framework and the consensus, we'll get all those and put them into the show notes. So you one click and everybody can read all of them. So Nicole, before we end our talk is the question I ask everyone. And that's knowing where you are now in life and career. What advice would you give to your younger self? Speaker 2 (29:51): I would definitely tell myself to be patient. I came out of school thinking like, okay, I just want to work with athletes. You know, I have to find a place where I can just do that. And anything else I do is a waste of time. And what I will say, what I would tell myself is that every experience is valuable and you can relate any experience to what you eventually ended up doing. Even working with a, you know, if it working with the elderly population that has nothing to do with working with athletes, but teaching them a new skill. If you can teach it an older person, who's never worked out a new skill, you can teach an athlete, a new skill, right. It's somebody who's like coordinated and strong and athletic as opposed to an older individual who's never worked out before. So I think that I would tell myself again, just be patient there's value in every experience and yeah, you'll, you'll eventually get to what you're looking for. Just take it, take things in stride and learn from each experience. Speaker 1 (30:56): Excellent advice. Now, where can people find you on social media? I think you've also got an ebook available. So give us all the goods. Speaker 2 (31:03): Yes. So you could to reach out to me. I'm I'm on social media. Instagram is at Dr. Nicole PT. My Twitter is at Encirca physio and my website is Nicole Serta, physio.com. I have a blog there that I grew up on this. I'm going to try to write more. I took a little hiatus. You had, Speaker 1 (31:28): I had a major change of life yourself from California to Portland and a new job. And so I think we, we understand we'll give you Speaker 2 (31:40): We're in the middle of a pandemic. So yeah, I think somewhere in the middle of the Vietnam, I just kind of lost a little motivation there Speaker 1 (31:48): With you all. Speaker 2 (31:51): Okay. It's okay. There's no need to like, feel guilty if you're in the same boat, cause I'm right there with you. But yeah, I will be writing more on that blog. I have actually a couple of different topics on the blog. One is just kind of rehab of soccer related injuries. And then I talk about some of the social issues related to soccer, things like racism and soccer and inclusion and diversity and things like that. And then also I have this little fun part. That's kind of just for me as a little self-indulgent, but life lessons that I've learned through soccer. And so that's on there as well. I also have some eBooks on my website. You can get to just by going and Nicole Serta, physio.com and it's under the eBooks tab. So on an ACL injuries, ankle injuries maybe hamstring injuries too. There's a couple on there now. Awesome. yeah, that's it. Excellent. Well, Nicole, Speaker 1 (32:42): Thank you so much. This was great. I great addition to our month on ACL injury and rehab. So I thank you very, very much. Thank you Speaker 2 (32:52): For having me on carrying this. When I graduated PT school, this is the first PT podcast I started listening to. So it's awesome to be on it. It's come full circle. It truly has. Yes. Speaker 1 (33:04): Well thank you and everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great week and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Lean in as Nicole shares with Tara the importance of not only finding and navigating your voice in the space, but advocating for others that may not be able to. Announcer 0:02You're listening to Moments That Matter, a special CXR podcast series, where leaders and telling professionals share their own experiences with varying aspects of discrimination and inequality. Hear on Moments That Matter, we are dedicated to creating connected conversations around specific moments. These are moments that matter. Tara Amaral, Marshall McLennan 0:25My name is Tara Amaral and I'm thrilled to be a bit to be able to introduce Nicole Wormley who's going to be having a conversation with us about moments that mattered in her life. Nicole asked you to tell us a little bit about yourself. But she is currently the Senior Director of diversity and talent attraction, and university recruitment at Danaher Corporation. She's had a long life in talent acquisition and HR and she does identify as a black woman. So Nicole would like to introduce yourself. Nicole, you may be unmute. Nicole Wormley, Danaher 1:06Thank you, Tara, for the introduction and I'm delighted to be a part of this moments that matter experience, I too, would like to take a bit of a step back when I when I reflected on the moment. And my my unapologetic way of being to your point, Tara, a black woman, I thought about my upbringing. And what I thought was okay, so I have, I was always taught respect, I was always taught, treat people the way you want to be treated. And I was empowered by a really, really strong set of parents that told me how wonderful and how awesome and how amazing I could be as a child, which was great. And I took all of that, and my, with my spunky self as a young adult, and then I graduate from college. And I go into my first recruiting organization. And while I'm not the only woman, I'm the only black woman, um, and I had the privilege of working at an office with a with a strong female who was the manager at the time. But I got to experience many big brand name companies at that time in 1994, requesting males for their assignments or for their roles, or requesting that people not come from, or candidates not be presented to them if they came from certain HBCUs because many of those schools were not accredited at the time. And I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything. Because while I was empowered and had all this energy from Mom and Dad, I'm the young youngest woman in the organization, and that voice just wasn't as powerful as you start off early in your career. So I vowed that if I ever had space, if I ever had decision making power, I would make sure that that was not the case, I would make sure that women have space and opportunity and access to organizations, I would make sure that HBCUs were debunked, because they were the managers at the time, if the organization did not challenge these clients, because these were paying clients, they just let it happen. So I said on my watch, that won't happen. So you fast forward to where I am today. And I am delighted to be able to be in a position where I get paid, and I have passion around the work that I'm doing. And whether I lead diversity attraction or not, I would be supporting diversity attraction, because it's the right thing to do. And I remember little young Nicole that didn't hadn't established her voice early on in her career that now she has a voice and she has a seat. And she's going to fight for women, and she's going to fight for black and brown kids. Tara Amaral, Marshall McLennan 3:37So let me ask you, if you reflect on what happened when you first entered the workforce versus what's happening now? Have your tactics changed about when you see or feel something that's uncomfortable? Nicole Wormley, Danaher 3:52Yes, the tactics and I would say the stakeholders change as well, I would say early on, it might have been clients and our customers that we're paying.

This week, we are amplifying the voices of black artists and business leaders by re-running three of our previous episodes. Have you ever come home from a long day at your corporate job and realized like, “Okay, so my job is feeding my family, but definitely not my soul.” What do you do? Well, today's Proof to Product guest is telling us how she figured it out. By age 28, Nicole Walters was a highly-paid executive at a Fortune 500 company, managing multibillion dollar accounts, but something wasn’t right. So Nicole quit her corporate job, and she made waves when she quit in front of 10,000 people while live streaming on Periscope. She went on to open her own private business and product development consulting firm, The Monetized Life.  As Nicole’s audience ramped up so did her revenue—she made $11,000 in the first three weeks of working with small business clients full time. Now, when she’s not hanging out with her husband and their three foster kids, she shares her secrets to earning “passive income” with other entrepreneurs through her wildly popular online course, 1K1Day. “I teach people how to add commas to their bank accounts,” says Nicole. “They learn that they don’t have to trade time for money.” On today's episode, Nicole and I sit down to talk about common mistakes she sees eager entrepreneurs making and why old school sales strategies still work. We also talk about why you can't rely solely on social media for sales, the importance of having multiple revenue streams and why you need to treat your business like a business from day one.  ON TODAY’S EPISODE:  Common mistakes Nicole sees eager entrepreneurs making Tips on where to focus your marketing time and money The problem of relying on social media platforms  Benefits of sticking with the old school methods What really gets customers in the door How to make a 40-50 hour work week feel like 4 hours The lessons Nicole took from corporate life and applied as an entrepreneur Her strongest marketing tool today Nicole’s favorite success stories How saying no is a form of self care  Advice for brand new business owners and entrepreneurs experiencing growing pains  The importance of acting like a business from the get-go What success looks like for Nicole today For full show notes and resources, head to https://bit.ly/FromtheArchives SUBSCRIBE To subscribe on iOS, go to the iTunes page and subscribe to Proof to Product. On Android, you can listen using your favorite podcast app.  WRITE A REVIEW Writing a review on iTunes will help other product based business owners find Proof to Product as they are working to up level, scale, and build profitable and sustainable companies. FOLLOW PROOF TO PRODUCT Follow Proof to Product on Instagram for the latest updates. JOIN OUR EMAIL LIST If you'd like to receive more information about our upcoming episodes of Proof to Product including show notes and information about our guests, head over to www.prooftoproduct.com and sign up for our email list.   SHARE Be sure to share Proof to Product with all of the product based business owners that you know!  ABOUT PROOF TO PRODUCT: Proof to Product is hosted by Katie Hunt. Since 2011, Proof to Product has worked with thousands of product based businesses to help them up level, scale, and build profitable sustainable companies. You can find our show notes and additional resources at ProofToProduct.com. If you like what you heard today, please head over to Apple Podcast to leave a five star review and subscribe. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next week with a new episode!

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. Here are the podcast episodes: Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/10/11/ask-a-mormon-sex-therapist-part-16 Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjenniferfife/virtualcouch2 Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire:http://www.finlayson-fife.com/podcast-archive/2019/11/25/virtue-passion-and-owning-your-desireBook Club Video Interview----more----Bookclub Video Transcript:00:00 Ray: So carry on.00:03 Jennifer: Okay, so should I just jump in with the...00:06 Ray: Yeah, please.00:07 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.00:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.01:15 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]01:32 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.01:44 Jennifer: Sure.01:44 Daniel: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?01:48 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"02:24 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."03:07 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...03:38 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...04:03 Ray: Oh my goodness.04:04 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]04:10 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...04:16 Jennifer: Yes.04:17 Daniel: Tone? Okay.04:18 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.05:04 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.05:28 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are. 06:04 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...06:13 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?06:18 Ellen: Mm-hmm.06:20 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.06:37 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?06:40 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]07:12 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]07:18 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]07:22 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.07:52 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.07:56 Jennifer: Exactly.07:56 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"08:23 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront... 08:25 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]08:26 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...08:32 Ellen: Okay.08:32 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.09:05 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.09:31 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]09:33 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]09:38 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]09:38 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?10:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.10:12 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.10:35 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."10:57 Jennifer: Yes.10:58 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."11:05 Jennifer: Exactly.11:05 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.11:07 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.11:16 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.11:17 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.11:26 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go? 11:55 Ray: I do. [chuckle]12:00 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one, both for themselves and for their husbands. [noise] Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."12:49 Jennifer: Sorry, you just kind of... I just missed that last sentence. You said, "Cinderella can wreck a honeymoon as quickly as" and then I... I think that's what you said.12:57 Ray: Yeah, as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talk about so often.13:03 Jennifer: Oh, two-minute groom, got it. Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?13:29 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.14:13 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.15:39 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.16:38 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.17:08 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"17:24 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.17:31 Jennifer: Yeah. Because a lot of people are... [noise]17:36 Jennifer: Can you hear me alright? Suddenly, it sounded kinda glitchy.17:37 Ellen: Yeah, I can. Could we make sure everybody's on mute?17:41 Jennifer: Just got glitchy for a second there.17:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think... Yeah.17:44 Jennifer: Yeah, I think so. I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.18:26 Ellen: There's comfort in that.18:28 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.18:36 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.18:40 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.18:43 Ellen: Exactly.18:44 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]18:46 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]18:50 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.18:52 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.19:22 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]19:38 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "19:42 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.19:56 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...20:07 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.20:10 Ellen: An identity. Yes.20:11 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?20:22 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.20:25 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.20:43 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...20:50 Jennifer: A hundred percent.20:50 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.20:57 Jennifer: Absolutely.20:58 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.21:00 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.21:17 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.21:19 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.21:40 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.22:08 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...22:11 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]22:20 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is [cough] Excuse me. I just choked.22:51 Daniel: Is, the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by23:02 Ray: Or decades.23:03 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?23:24 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]23:37 Daniel: Great.23:37 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.24:22 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female, and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?24:53 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.25:23 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.25:26 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.26:02 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.26:20 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"27:10 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.27:47 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable, and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did. 28:36 Ray: Okay. Alright.28:36 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...28:44 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."29:12 Jennifer: Yeah.29:13 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted. 29:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.29:25 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...29:26 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.29:32 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...29:40 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.29:41 Ray: How do you navigate that?29:42 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.30:13 Ray: Exactly.30:14 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.30:23 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.30:56 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.31:21 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.31:50 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?32:10 Leann: Yes.32:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.32:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.33:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."33:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.34:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."34:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.35:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.35:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.35:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?35:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.35:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?35:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.36:18 Ellen: Definitely.36:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]36:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.37:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that. 37:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]37:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]37:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that. 37:36 Ray: We'll have a look at that, thanks.37:38 Ellen: Yeah.37:40 Ray: When you've got a script for how to have that conversation with your kids…[noise] 37:48 Ellen: Ray, I think you're cutting out.37:49 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, you just cut out there Ray. Can you say it again? How to get your kids to do that?37:54 Ray: Yeah, I wanna know, if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?37:58 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 38:00 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."38:01 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...38:12 Ray: Yes.38:13 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.38:28 Ray: Right. Okay.38:30 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?" I've... So Nicole feel free... Oh.38:54 Jennifer: Can you say that again? Say that to me...38:55 Ellen: Nicole, feel free to jump in and clarify that. I don't know if I read it... "So how do we change that church culture problem of the unclear functioning women? Woman."39:05 Nicole: Under-functioning.39:05 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.39:06 Ray: Under-functioning.39:06 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.39:07 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...39:07 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.39:08 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]39:09 Jennifer: Yeah, good.39:10 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]39:41 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...39:44 Jennifer: It's us.39:45 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.39:54 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...40:00 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.40:00 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.40:26 Ellen: So I'm ready to move on to another question that was posed. Ray, do you have any follow-up to the question that you had?40:34 Ray: Nope.40:34 Ellen: No? Alright. So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."41:01 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."41:26 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.41:27 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]41:27 Jennifer: Wrong, no.41:29 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"41:34 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "42:10 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.42:11 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.43:05 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.43:06 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great, because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles, is really setting yourself up.43:51 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.43:53 Jennifer: Yeah.43:54 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.43:55 Jennifer: And you know, of course the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.44:03 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...44:21 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]44:23 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]44:38 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.44:45 Ellen: Yeah.44:46 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?45:12 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.45:32 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?45:35 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.45:54 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.46:04 Jennifer: Yeah.46:05 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.46:09 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.46:10 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?46:26 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.47:01 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.47:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.47:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.47:19 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 47:38 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]47:41 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...47:42 Ellen: I worry about that.47:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...48:17 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.48:25 Jennifer: That's right.48:25 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.48:26 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.48:27 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...48:36 Jennifer: Exactly.48:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...48:37 Jennifer: Yes.48:38 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]48:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.48:44 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]48:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?48:52 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.49:08 Jennifer: Yes.49:09 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.49:12 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."49:39 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?50:13 Jennifer: No, but when you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "50:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good, if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices, because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.51:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."51:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.51:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.51:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.51:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.52:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...52:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?52:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.52:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"52:25 Ellen: I don't know...52:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.52:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.52:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.53:08 Ellen: Interesting.53:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."53:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.53:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.53:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.53:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.53:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...53:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]54:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.54:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...54:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.54:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.54:25 Jennifer: Yeah.54:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]54:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]54:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]54:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]54:58 Jennifer: Yeah.54:58 Ellen: Well, it is about three minutes to the hour, so I wanna respect your time. It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...55:38 Jennifer: Sure.55:38 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.55:45 Jennifer: Sure.55:46 Ellen: But the time is yours.55:48 Jennifer: I'm trying to think if I have any profound final thoughts. [laughter]55:53 Ellen: You're probably thinking a lot actually. [chuckle]55:57 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of, takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay?56:30 Ray: Soundbite. [laughter]56:39 Jennifer: So I really do...56:41 Daniel: Jennifer?56:41 Jennifer: Yeah, go ahead.56:42 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]56:50 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]56:55 Daniel: You got it.57:00 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.57:25 Ellen: Well said.57:25 Jennifer: Okay.57:28 Ellen: Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.57:31 Jennifer: You're welcome.57:32 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]57:36 Jennifer: Thank you, I'll try.57:37 Ellen: Please try to stay warm.57:39 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.57:40 Ray: Thank you.57:41 Ellen: Bye-bye. So, we're on. Yeah, go ahead Ray. You got it.57:46 Ray: No.57:46 Ellen: Well you got the book. [chuckle]57:49 Ray: Okay. Let's go ahead and stop the recording at that point.

 In this episode of the P100 Podcast, our hosts Paul, Dan and Logan welcome Nicole Chynoweth from the Carnegie Science Center to discuss the center’s new exhibit on mummies. From there we move on to the science of fear, and then on to hockey with their guest, Jeremy Church. This episode wraps up with a review of some unique Pennsylvania town names. We bet you have your favorites.----more----Full transcript here:Logan: You are listening to the P100 podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news culture and more because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the P100 Podcast, we're happy to have you back for another episode. I am Dan Stefano, I'm here with Logan Armstrong. Logan.Logan: How's it going?Dan: A pleasure to have you with us and Paul Furiga will be joining us in a little bit. Today's episode we're going to be talking about mummies. Not your mothers, not like that Logan. I see you, that's what you're thinking. No, just having a pleasant thought, thinking about dear old mom. No, Okay.Dan: Now, we're actually going to be talking about the mummies that you might think of whenever you think of ancient Egypt and other parts of the world here. There's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center - Mummies of the World, and we're really excited to talk with someone from the Science Center about that.Dan: Afterward, we're going to be discussing the science of fear. Keeping with us, somewhat of a Halloween type of theme here. Then, we're going to be talking about, what everybody knows, it's the beginning of hockey season. Logan, you excited about that?Logan: No. Dan: No. You're not excited about hockey. Okay. Well, I am and some other people in the office, and we're going to be talking with one of them about the growth of youth hockey in the region, which is really something that's taken off in the past few couple of decades here in Pittsburgh. And we're going to finish up with Logan and I being just as serious we are now. We're going to talk about strange Pennsylvania town names. So if you make it to the end, you're going to be in for treat on that one.Logan: Oh yeah. Stay tuned.Dan: Okay, so let's get going. All right guys, for this segment we're going to talk about mummies. In particular, mummies of the world, the exhibition. It's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center and from the Science Center, we have Nicole Chynoweth. Nicole, thanks for being here.Nicole: Thank you for having me.Dan: Absolutely. Thanks for being with us here. And can we talk a little bit about your own role within the Science Center here. Can you tell us your position and a little bit what you do?Nicole: Sure. So, I'm the manager of marketing, public relations, and social media with a focus on exhibits and the Rangos Giants Cinema.Dan: Great. What does that entail then? I mean, that I imagine you you are working with a lot of different positions there. Right?Nicole: Yeah, it's a really fun job. I get my hands in everything from new movies that we have coming out at the Rangos, educational films to the exciting new exhibits that we're bringing to the science center, from space topics, planetarium related things, and mummies-Dan: Really cool, it seems like a fun place to work. Right?Paul: Nicole, you've had your hands in the mummies?Nicole: No.Paul: Okay. The promotion of the mummies.Dan: The promotion of the mummies. Paul: I'm sure we'll talk about some of the technical aspects, but that would seem a little gross, but...Nicole: I don't think so. I find the exhibition more fascinating than I do creepy. And I'm not a fan of scary movies or I did not watch the Brendan Fraser mummy movie.Paul: You didn't?Nicole: No interest in that.Paul: I did watch those.Dan: You're missing out on a classic from the 1990s.Paul: Yeah. Well, classic is a little strong-Dan: I think it should have won an Oscar, but that's just me.Paul: Okay, Dan. We'll talk about that another time. So Nicole, when I think of the science center, I think about some of the other things you mentioned. Space, technology, mummies?Nicole: Yes, mummies are, especially this show, the mummies featured in Mummies of the World, the exhibition is, have so much to offer in terms of scientific, anatomical, biological information that we can still learn from today. So what I find really exciting about the mummies of the world is that it focuses on both natural mummification and intentional mummification. So, you might be more familiar with intentional mummification. That's the type that was [crosstalk 00:04:15] practicing in ancient Egypt. Correct.Nicole: And we do have some examples of Egyptian mummification in the show, but this also takes a look at the natural mummification process that can happen when conditions are at such a level moisture wise, temperature-wise that is able to naturally mummify a body, be it animal or human.Dan: Right. Well, it sounds like some pretty amazing things to see...Paul: Yeah, it's fascinating.Dan: What are some examples maybe of the intended mummification that we'd see there? I mean, is there anything from, I guess everybody knows about Egyptian mummies but then, they're also South American. What else might you see?Nicole: So an interesting example of the intentional mummification process that aside from like the Egyptian mummies that are featured in the show, there is Mumab, also known as the Maryland Mummy. In the nineties, two scientists at the University of Maryland decided that they wanted to try their hand at an Egyptian mummification process. A man had donated his body to science, and so they started the process of mummifying him. So, you can see Mumab in the show.Nicole: That's just an interesting way of seeing how we are still learning thousands and thousands of years later about how this process works and the tools that they had to use to complete the process and what the body has to go through for mummification to occur.Dan: That's really cool.Paul: Did it work?Nicole: I've been told that it's still in process, it's not completely... He's not completely mummified yet.Paul: Take some time?Nicole: Yes.Paul: Wow. Something I never knew.Dan: That's pretty awesome. Can you tell us what else is in the exhibit then? I mean, are there any, you say interactive portions to it. What should people and families expect whenever they're inside here. It's not just, as you'd be at a museum taking a look. I mean one of the great things about the science center is it kind of hands-on.Paul: Hands-on. Yeah.Nicole: Yes. So in addition, to the 40 animal and human mummies and 85 rare related artifacts, visitors will also be able to look through several interactives related to different topics within mummification. I think a favorite among children will definitely be the, what does mummy feel like a station where you can touch different types of mummified materials, so there's like frog skin, fur. Mummified fur, different things like that they'll be able to touch these like textile panels that are examples of what those things feel like.Nicole: Another great interactive is there's a large map that shows where different types of mummies have been found all over the world, which I think is really important to look at from the perspective of which, like you said, we are so used to just thinking about Egyptian mummies.Paul: Yes.Nicole: And really there are mummies all over the world, [crosstalk 00:07:15].Paul: So not to be surprised?Nicole: Yeah.Paul: You never know where you might find a mummy!Nicole: Right, right.Dan: Okay. Well, people will hear, we can see Mummies of the World through April 19th that's correct, right?Nicole: Correct. Open through April 19th. It takes about 60 to 90 minutes to get through the exhibition, for parents that are maybe wondering if the exhibition is appropriate for their children. We do have a family guide available at carnegiesciencecenter.org/mummies, that might answer some of the questions parents have before they take their kids to the exhibition.Nicole: But I really believe that it is appropriate for all ages and I think people will take something away from the show, be it a new interest in archeology or anthropology or just being able to connect with the backstories of the mommies that are featured in the show. You get to know them. They're more than just a mummy in front of you. You learn their story, how they lived, the way they lived, where they were from. So, super excited to have it at the science center and to be able to offer this experience to Pittsburghers.Dan: That's great. Anything else happen at the science center lately?Nicole: Yes. So, it's Halloween season.Dan: Yes.Nicole: What better time than to experience a scary movie on Pittsburgh's largest screen?Paul: Very good.Nicole: The Rangos Strengths Cinema teamed up with Scare House, this year actually for Rangos x Scare House. We co-curated some Halloween movies together to offer Pittsburgh a really exciting lineup for the Halloween seasons. So we have coming up the Universal Studios Classic Monsters. We're showing the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Frankenstein and Dracula, on October 11th through the 13th.Nicole: We also have Dawn of the Dead 3D showing October 25th and the 26th. And that's a really exciting screening because they don't often show the 3D version. So if you've seen Dawn the Dead before, I can guarantee you have not seen it like this.Dan: This is the original one?Nicole: Yes. This is the original Dawn of the dead. Yes.Paul: In 3D.Nicole: In 3D.Paul: Have you seen it, Nicole?Nicole: I have not seen it. I'm not a huge fan of the scary movies, but I've been told that if there's one I should experience at the Rangos this year. It's probably this one.Dan: All right? Just how big again is the Rangos?Nicole: So we are a certified giant screen. The screen itself measures 72 by 38 feet.Paul: Wow.Nicole: We also have 45 surround sound speakers. Your average theater has 14.Paul: Dan, if you and I can get that past our spouses and into our basements. I think that'll be good.Dan: I might have to tear down a wall or two in my basement, but I think I can handle it.Paul: You know, it's all about the purpose, Dan.Dan: You know what, we're trying to fix more damage to begin with. So I think I could get this Rangos a screen down here. That'd be perfect.Paul: It'd be very nice.Dan: Nicole, how can people find out more about the Carnegie Science Center, both online and in social media?Nicole: Sure. Visit us at carnegiesciencecenter.org or find us on Facebook. Carnegie Science Center or Twitter and Instagram @Carnegie S-C-I-C-T-R.Dan: Okay. Thanks so much for coming on Nicole. We appreciate it.Nicole: Thank you.Paul: Yes.Dan: All right guys. We were just talking about mummies and now we're going to... mummies, if you'll look back at it, they're famous movie monsters, some of the old ones from the 30s, some of the more recent mummy movies and whatnot.Paul: Brendan Fraser.Dan: Exactly, yeah. I love those horror movies and I love being scared. I love this time of year whenever we get a chance to go out to a haunted house. Me and my wife try to do one at least once a year. She's not wild about them, but I have a great time. Even right now in a couple of days. I believe the scare house is going to be reopening the scare houses. One of the more popular attractions around the area of this third winter.Paul: Award-winning.Dan: Award-winning, correct. Yeah. They had to move from Etna and they're in the Strip District. I think they maybe even changed the name to reflect that, but I think, it's interesting that people love to go to these things and they're so well attended.Dan: You see the lines around the block just to be scared and so I've had a chance to go look at the psychology of fear here, and there's an interesting phenomenon that researchers have found called VANE. It's V-A-N-E, and it stands for Voluntary Arousing Negative Experiences. Logan or Paul, you guys ever felt anything like that? Do you have any voluntary experiences?Paul: Yes. Dan, some people call that work?Dan: No. Yes.Paul: I've absolutely. So, I mean, I'm the old guy in the room. You think back to when I was a teenager, the voluntary arousing negative experience was to take the date you really like to a scary movie.Dan: Okay.Paul: I think we're going to get into this Dan, some of the why this is in... Things that people will voluntarily do you, you might not have expected a certain level of affection from your date, but if you took her to a scary movie, there would be the involuntary reaction when something happened on the screen of-Dan: Them getting closer? There you go. That's clever.Paul: Yeah. Well, and it's all this time at least all the scary movies.Dan: I think, when you look at some of the research here, what they point at, one of the most important parts of that is that it `is voluntary and that people were making a conscious decision to go out and be scared. And a lot of that is about overcoming stress. And you might go in with another person, you're working together to try to get through this shared experience here, fighting the monsters, try not to punch the actors who are just trying to have a good time and scare you.Dan: But they get a chance to get outside of themselves, and as we said, face a fear and there's really a great quote here from a woman named Justine Musk. Her quote says, "Fear is a powerful beast, but we can learn to ride it". I think that's just a very good succinct way to put it. But our good friend Logan here, you were actually a psychology major for a couple of years at Pitt and you know a lot about fear.Logan: Yes. So, as you said, I was a psychology major for a few years. I really enjoy just kind of how humans work. But so basically what it is that you have a part of your brain and it's a little almond-shaped lobe called a medulla. But, so basically what happens is that you're, when you see emotions on people's faces or when you see something that would cause you to emote in a certain way.Logan: So, say you see you're out in the wild and you see a lion and you're like, well that's not good. So that message sends to your medulla, which then sends to your limbic system. And if you guys are aware of the limbic system, it's your fight or flight response.Dan: Yes, okay.Logan: When you experience these negative arousals, that kicks into high gear and that pumps adrenaline through your entire body, your pupils dilate, your bronchitis dilates, just you're in this hyper-aware zone, and that's where adrenaline junkies get it from.Logan: It's a similar thing to where you're experiencing fear where you might be scared, but your adrenaline is pumping so much and it's releasing so many endorphins and dopamine that you end up enjoying it.Dan: Well. Okay, now we know whenever we either go to a haunted house or if we go see the mummies exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center, none of us are going to be scared because we know all the science, and we just know what's going on in our brain.Paul: Well, I mean this is also why people like roller coasters shout out to the steel curtain at Kennywood. Because they know it's safe. Right?Dan: Right.Paul: The experience is scary, but it's safe. When you go and see a movie. Yes. You sure hope so. You see the movie, you know it's going to be an hour and 20 minutes or two hours or whatever and when it's over, you may have been scared during the movie, but you're okay. The same with the rollercoaster, three minutes and then you're back in line, right it again. Right? Because you've enjoyed that safe experience of being scared.Logan: And it's the same concept where it's going back to my earlier example. If you see a lion in the wild or you're going to be scared. But if you go to the zoo, you're going to think it's cute or whether somebody else tickles you, you get a reaction, but you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's not a threat.Dan: Well, we do see a lot of alligators on the streets of Pittsburgh these days, so I don't know. You know what I mean. Maybe we'll see a lion the next, but I don't know that's all there is to know about fear or at least a good introduction for it. So, yeah. Logan, thanks for the knowledge there.Logan: Sure thing.Dan: Yeah. Maybe you should have stayed as a psychology major.Paul: He won't be here helping us today.Dan: That's a fair point.Logan: Now he's like "you really should've stayed a psych major"Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires. As we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At Word Wright, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency. We understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: Word Wright helps clients to uncover their own Capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process, visit wordpr.com to uncover your capitalist story.Paul: All right guys. It's a fun time of year because the penguins are back in action. We're all hoping that they can get back to the Stanley cup this year. Who better to have on our vice president Jeremy Church here at one of our vice presidents here at WordWrite. Jeremy, you're involved with hockey and can you tell us a little bit about that?Jeremy: Sure. I've been fortunate to be involved with the game for nearly 40 years now as a player and a coach. Grew up starting about eight I guess in Michigan. Then we moved here in 10 continued to play, went away to prep school and played all through prep school Junior A, was fortunate enough again to play in college and then the last 17 years at various levels. I've been able to coach.Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, Who do you coach with?Jeremy: Right now, I'm coaching my younger son. With 11 Hornets, youth hockey organization. Prior to that, I helped with the high school in Mount Lebanon for five years. Coached at Shady Side Academy for a year and again using the word fortunate was able to go back to the Prep school. I played at Culver Military Academy and coached there for six years and it's a pretty storied program.Paul: That's fair and awesome. Well, Pittsburgh's got a long history in hockey going back to the turn of the century here, pretty much and but from a lot of people, the history and hockey didn't start until Mario Lemieux got here in the early eighties and Jeremy have a fun story about Mario Lemieux actually.Jeremy: I do. There've been two big booms locally when it comes to the growth of the sport. And certainly the first one had to have been when Merrill was drafted back in 1984 so we had just moved here from outside of Detroit and moved to the South Hills and we went to South Hills village one day and the mall was still there. At the time it was Kaufman's Department Store, which is no longer there.Paul: Oh yeah, the mall's there now just no Kaufmann's.Jeremy: So we're walking through and there's a little table set up and there are two or three people sitting there, one of them towers over all the others. And as we get closer and closer, there's no line at all. Mind you, it's Mario Lemieux sitting there signing autographs before he'd ever played a game.Jeremy: So, we walked up to the table, got his autograph. He still really couldn't speak English that well. But if you could imagine today the kind of stir it would create if Mario were around talking at to anyone in any environment. It was the exact opposite back then. I still have the autograph today.Paul: What did you get autographed?Jeremy: They had little teeny pamphlets of him in his Junior A Laval and from the Quebec Major Junior League Jersey, and that's all they had to sign. I think it was him. And it might've been Paul Steigerwald because at the time he was head of showing Mario around town and Mario, for those who don't remember when he was 18 actually lived with a host family in Mount Lebanon for the first year that he was here when he was 18.Paul: Yeah. Well, like I said it, whenever he first got here, he lived with Lemieux.Jeremy: Yeah, he returned the favor.Paul: Well, since that day, whenever there was no line at Kauffman's, today there was no more Kauffman's and you would have a gigantic line. But so what can you say about just seeing the growth of hockey? Especially from a youth hockey angle here, you've been front and center with it your entire life?Jeremy: It's pretty remarkable. Doing a little research earlier and in 1975 there were basically two rinks that you could play out of indoor rinks for Youth Hockey: Rostraver Gardens, which is still around and Mount Lebanon Recreation Center, which is still around.Jeremy: By 1990, when I was in high school, there were 10 and now that figure is roughly doubled to around 20 in the region. There are 62 high school teams and there are 28 organizations in the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League. And within the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League, there are now 5,600 players. And that's for those who are around playing in the eighties or growing up in the eighties and early nineties here, that's almost hard to believe there's, you know that there are 28 organizations, but if you go down through the ranks of 18 and under 16 and under 14, 12, ten eight and under age groups, there's dozens and dozens of teams at various levels all throughout that.Jeremy: So, for last year at the ten-year level, ten-year-old level, there were 80 plus 10 new teams in PAHL, Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League League. So pretty remarkable.Paul: Right, Yeah. The majority of those kids, they're probably not going to be heading to the NHL, but a lot of kids want to at least, pretend that they're one of their heroes and get involved in the game. And I think one of the problems, maybe not a problem with hockey, but one of the issues surrounding it is there is a perception that there is a bit of a barrier to entry. You've got to have skates, you've got to have pads, you've got to have a good helmet, you've got to have a good stick. There's a lot of, there's a lot to that kit there. Jeremy, there are easier ways for kids to get involved in the game today though, right?Jeremy: Yes. Part of the Testament to the Penguins organization and certainly as Sidney Crosby has been, his emphasis and involvement with youth programs and youth hockey initiatives. And not just in Pittsburgh, but I know as well back when he returns to Canada in the summer and throughout the year, he likes to give back to the community.Jeremy: But a big initiative that started, it's now celebrating it's 10 year anniversary or 11 year anniversary is the little Penguins learn to play hockey, where Sid partnered with Dick's sporting goods to give, what is now I believe more than a thousand sets of free equipment out to kids who want to start playing the sport. So that goes hand in hand with a program that I think runs six weeks, eight weeks, in January, February to get kids introduced to hockey.Jeremy: But to your point in that, the big barrier to entry is the cost of equipment, which can be several hundred dollars even for kids that are five, six, seven years old. So that's certainly got a lot of kids involved in the game and has led to those massive increases in participation that I cited before.Paul: All right, that's awesome, Jeremy. Well, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us about hockey. We're hoping for another good season from the Penguins. Maybe a longer playoff run than last year. We got a bit of a break last year. I think they earned it after winning a couple of cups. But yeah, thanks again and yeah, we'll talk to you soon.Jeremy: No problem. Thanks to you.Dan: Right. This next segment. We're going to learn a little more about our co-host Logan Armstrong. Logan is from Eighty Four, PA.Logan: That I am.Dan: Now, we got talking about this and it got us, we started, you know, going down a rabbit hole and we got discussing why 84 was actually named 84? At first, I thought it was named after the construction company the-Logan: 84 Lumber.Dan: Yeah, 84 Lumber, and it turns out I was wrong. That 84 is named after 84 PA, and there's a lot of history and a lot of different theories about how the town was named. Logan, do you want to go through some of them maybe?Logan: Yeah, sure. So there are a couple theories. 84 is quite the town. There's not much in it other than 84 Lumber, but you know, it's nice. There are a lot of theories on how it was named, the most popular of which is that it commemorated Grover Cleveland's 1884 election victory. Some other theories were that it's on mile 84 of the railway mail service. My favorite though is that it's located at 80 degrees and four minutes West longitude. This seems like the most probable to me.Dan: My favorite actually is apparently in 1869 general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton had an outfit of 84 soldiers with them and held off an attack of Outlaws. Now that just sounds fantastic. Yeah.Logan: That sounds quite heroic. If that is the case. I am proud to be from 84 PA.Dan: Maybe you're a descendant of general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton here. Is that possible?Logan: Yeah. I believe I'm Logan "Crazy Toes" Armstrong.Dan: Okay, keep your shoes on man! We don't want to see anything. Well, after this, after we talked about 84 we also started taking a look at some other weird names for towns in Pennsylvania here and if you go online, you can find quite a few of them. Logan, what were some of the interesting ones you like you?Logan: There are quite a few to choose from. A couple of my favorites were, while the all known intercourse, PA, which is actually the most stolen sign in Pennsylvania, where it says "Welcome to Intercourse" for good reason.Dan: Obvious reasons.Logan: Right. Going along that same route, a rough and ready PA was, they named it after a California Gold Rush town, so I guess they're rough and ready to get some gold out there. Can't blame them for that.Dan: I imagine that sign is also been stolen many times.Logan: Right. Okay. Then, well, let's play a game here. I'm going to give you some Pennsylvania town names and you're going to tell me how you think that those names came to be. How's that sound?Dan: Bring them on. I'm a repository of knowledge.Logan: Okay, great. Peach Bottom.Dan: Peach Bottom. This is simple. This is extremely simple. Everybody in the town of Peach Bottom is very short, and they're, but they're also Peach farmers, so they can only see the bottom of the peaches that come from the trees. It's kind of a shame because they've never seen the peach tops.Logan: That is a shame. Those peach tops are so beautiful.Dan: We have an actual reason why it's called Peach Bottom?Logan: In fact, Dan, you weren't too far off, Peach Bottom. Got its name in 1815 from a peach orchard owned by a settler named John Kirk.Dan: John Kirk was very short, as we all know.Logan: Right? Yes. Okay. Shickshinny, Pennsylvania. What do you think of that?Dan: Schickshinny. Ah, got it. Okay. Shickshinny is named after a famous dance created by the person who created Schick shaving blades. Fun fact, a few people realize that he had a dance. Whenever he would cut his face on his old rusty blades, he would do a little jig-Logan: A little jig!Dan: In a big thing because it can... to get the pain away, and so he decided I've got to create a better, more comfortable blade and so he created the Schick shaving blade.Logan: Well, I foresee-Dan: Everybody knows this.Logan: I've foreseen the future...We had the Whip, we had the Nae Nae. Next, we're going to have the Shickshinny going on in all the clubs in Pittsburgh.Dan: I think this one is actually one of those Indian words that have made a lot of Pennsylvania names here.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like an Indian word that either means the land of mountains or land of the fine stream.Dan: Or land of the cutting your face on your favorite razor.Logan: Yeah, I think that's the most common translation. Yeah.Dan: Sure.Logan: We are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at P100podcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow us on Twitter @Pittsburgh100_, for all the latest news updates and more, from the Pittsburgh 100.

Have you ever come home from a long day at your corporate job and realized like, “Okay, so my job is feeding my family, but definitely not my soul.” What do you do? Well, today's Proof to Product guest is telling us how she figured it out. By age 28, Nicole Walters was a highly-paid executive at a Fortune 500 company, managing multibillion dollar accounts, but something wasn’t right. So Nicole quit her corporate job, and she made waves when she quit in front of 10,000 people while live streaming on Periscope. She went on to open her own private business and product development consulting firm, The Monetized Life.    As Nicole’s audience ramped up so did her revenue—she made $11,000 in the first three weeks of working with small business clients full time. Now, when she’s not hanging out with her husband and their three foster kids, she shares her secrets to earning “passive income” with other entrepreneurs through her wildly popular online course, 1K1Day. “I teach people how to add commas to their bank accounts,” says Nicole. “They learn that they don’t have to trade time for money.”   On today's episode, Nicole and I sit down to talk about common mistakes she sees eager entrepreneurs making and why old school sales strategies still work. We also talk about why you can't rely solely on social media for sales, the importance of having multiple revenue streams and why you need to treat your business like a business from day one.    ON TODAY’S EPISODE:  Common mistakes Nicole sees eager entrepreneurs making Tips on where to focus your marketing time and money The problem of relying on social media platforms  Benefits of sticking with the old school methods What really gets customers in the door How to make a 40-50 hour work week feel like 4 hours The lessons Nicole took from corporate life and applied as an entrepreneur Her strongest marketing tool today Nicole’s favorite success stories How saying no is a form of self care  Advice for brand new business owners and entrepreneurs experiencing growing pains  The importance of acting like a business from the get-go What success looks like for Nicole today KEY TAKE-AWAYS:   “If the only place that you're selling is on your social media platform, well guess what? It's not yours. You don't own it.” - Nicole Walters “Word of mouth is still good. So all that matters that you're actually able to get to people who have mouths and are able to spread the word. Old School still works.” - Nicole Walters “Make sure that you're telling your story authentically and being honest about who you are. Because if you do that, if you tell your true story, well guess what? You'll never get it wrong.”  - Nicole Walters “Wear your heart on your sleeve, because it's that same heart that'll put cash in your pocket.” - Nicole Walters “It was time for me to quit and I decided to do in grand fashion. I decided that I wasn't just going to burn the bridge behind me. I was going to singe it and blow away the ashes.” - Nicole Walters “I was ready to become an entrepreneur. So instead of taking those tools to fat cats at multi-billion dollar companies, I'm taking them to everyday entrepreneurs who are using them to feed their families and their souls.” - Nicole Walters “I get to see the change and the transition and the transformation in people's families and livelihoods. Being able to really put money into people's pockets instead of watching it go to a new Gulfstream jet or a new golf membership at a country club, you know, it's really, really rewarding. And I love it.” - Nicole Walters “I’ll be the first one to tell you if I'm doing my job well, guess what? We shouldn't work together forever.” - Nicole Walters “Look at the quarterlies, look at your revenue and your expenses, all of it. There might be certain quarters that are slow, but if you can plan for that and know about that in advance, it just sets you up for the longterm.“ - Katie Hunt “I'm a mom and I'm married and the other side of it is honestly, I couldn't keep up with my business if I didn't get healthy. That's the reality of it.”  - Nicole Walters “There's this misconception of self care, that it’s going and getting a manicure and/or like, you know, or going to get coffee or whatever and it's like self care comes in so many different forms.” - Katie Hunt “I'm allowed to say no to things that don't serve me because if I say no, then I'm taking care of the things that do serve me. And that is a form of self care.” - Nicole Walters “You want to seize opportunities, but at the same time you need to protect your time and your sanity.” - Katie Hunt “Act like a business if you want to get paid like one, get out there and get your legal stuff in order. Make sure that you understand the importance of finances, quick books, getting all that stuff done and I know it's big and scary.” - Nicole Walters “The minute you take a dollar, you are acting like a business and you need to get paid like one.” - Nicole Walters “Sometimes we get in our own way, we overthink things or we don't relinquish control when we need to or we're afraid to bring on more team members to handle things because we think nobody can do it the way we can.” - Katie Hunt  LINKS Website: http://nicolewalters.tv Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MonetizeThyself/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicolewalters/  Periscope: https://www.periscope.tv/NapturalNicole Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/napturalnicole Twitter: https://twitter.com/napturalnicole     SUBSCRIBE To subscribe on iOS, go to the iTunes page and subscribe to Proof to Product. On Android, you can listen using your favorite podcast app.  WRITE A REVIEW Writing a review on iTunes will help other product based business owners find Proof to Product as they are working to up level, scale, and build profitable and sustainable companies. FOLLOW PROOF TO PRODUCT Follow Proof to Product on Instagram for the latest updates. JOIN OUR EMAIL LIST If you'd like to receive more information about our upcoming episodes of Proof to Product including show notes and information about our guests, head over to www.prooftoproduct.com and sign up for our email list.   SHARE Be sure to share Proof to Product with all of the product based business owners that you know!    ABOUT PROOF TO PRODUCT: Proof to Product is hosted by Katie Hunt. Since 2011, Proof to Product has worked with thousands of product based businesses to help them up level, scale, and build profitable sustainable companies. You can find our show notes and additional resources at ProofToProduct.com. If you like what you heard today, please head over to Apple Podcast to leave a five star review and subscribe. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next week with a new episode!

A warehouse disaster is a large concern for the bourbon industry, but some people in the community make jokes and laugh at the situation. Should this be considered normal? Heaven Hill phased out their 6 Year Bottled in Bond product that was a true bargain brand to many bourbon consumers and launched a very similar product with a 3X price increase. Was this a good move by Heaven Hill? Are they competing in a high price bracket? Did they just cannibalize their own products? Is this the first #KentuckySnub? We tackle all this and more on Bourbon Community Roundtable #34. Show Partners: Every batch Barrell Craft Spirits produces has a distinct flavor profile. They take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Aged & Ore is running a special promotion on their new Travel Decanter. Get yours today at PursuitTravelDecanter.com. Receive $25 off your first order at Rackhouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week Ryan talks about launching a bourbon brand. Look for a new segment called Whiskey Quickie launching next week. Brian Harra’s Sazerac Brands v. Peristyle: Bourbon History Matters as a Matter of Law - https://brianhaaracom.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/haara-bourbon-history-matters-as-a-matter-of-law-ky-jeanrl-2019.pdf Jim Beam Warehouse Fire Heaven Hill 7-Year Bottled-in-Bond Was it the right move to discontinue 6-Year BIB and relaunch with 7-Year at a higher price point? Do you think this product competes with the Woodford and Knob Creek price point? Is Heaven Hill competing against themselves? Why wouldn't Heaven Hill launch in Kentucky on day one? How do you best support retailers that elevate prices for hard to find bottles? 0:00 My wife was like, I was like remember I got a podcast. She said ugh that's so annoying. 0:07 Didn't you just do one of those round tables and I'm like that was last month. 0:23 Hey everybody it is Episode 209 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny in the bourbon news cycle it moves quick. What's Trending one day is going to become pretty stale soon. And I'm sure many of you are like myself wanna bourbon warehouse collapses or when 45,000 barrels of bourbon go up in flames from a lightning strike at a gym be warehouse. We probably get a lot of messages in our inbox about it. And I kind of want to focus on this and say, where are we at today on the current situation. So on july fourth, the Woodford County Fire Department waited to extinguish the fire for a few days because as they said, there is less environmental 1:00 impact to allowing the ethanol just letting it continue to burn. Beam Suntory put out a press release saying that the barrels in the warehouse contain relatively young whiskey from the Jim Beam Asheville in the US, it will not impact the availability of the product to its customers. And they are going to be working with local state and federal agencies to conduct response operations. And now beyond just the whiskey, Jim Beam is looking at a $50 million loss. That would be the bourbon loss at around 45 million, with an estimated additional 5 million in the damages to the warehouses and the cleanup process. And that cleanup is going to be in response to a mass amount of bourbon that has entered the Ohio River after traveling more than 20 miles down the Kentucky River. And the Kentucky's division of Fish and Wildlife is already characterizing this bill as a severe fish kill. The officials are still continuing to assess the damage to the aquatic life. In a Facebook post on Monday, the Kentucky Energy and Environment cabinets 2:00 said that the department Fish and Wildlife Resources is on the river again, and they are continuing to assess the fish count killed and the results are continue to penned. They are also going to see dead and dying fish. People are using the Kentucky River in the area and they're going to start seeing and smelling the dead fish as well. Robert Francis, the manager of the emergency response team said that the bacteria in the water is going after the food source, which is the sugar and the alcohol so it ends up depleting the oxygen, the fish start to become distress and they eventually die. According to officials, the dead fish will decompose naturally with no harm to the river, so there's no plan to remove them, being Suntory is likely going to be handed a large fine once this comes to a close. If you've taken a drive in Bardstown, or Shively, Kentucky or really anywhere near a distillery or aging warehouses, you'll notice this sort of black fungus or film that grows on the side of rock houses and even find itself attached to road signs and surround 3:00 Holmes in 2007 when University of Toronto my colleges James Scott published an academic paper about the fungus, it pinned it on the whiskey industry. Dr. Scott discovered that this fungus which is he named but don't Yeah, after the man who first studied it in 1872 Anton but don't feeds on the ethanol vapor released by liquor as it ages. Since ethanol is denser than air, the evaporated Angel's share doesn't float up into the sky after all, but rather into the surrounding communities. In when it is airborne. Ethanol meets the slightest bit of moisture. It's going to be common because distilleries and towns are usually near those water sources. You get whiskey fungus all over the place. You can read more about this fungus and how it's plaguing neighboring towns from an article on but by Vice calm, which can be found in our show notes. This podcast, it's always been about education and our focus is how do we bring the biggest personalities behind bourbon to the forefront and get 4:00 listeners a chance to experience the hear directly from them. We never intended this podcast to be about Reiner. I am really what we think. And that's why we never did bourbon or whiskey reviews as a part of our format. However, over the years, people are continually asking us what we think of a particular bourbon. So we wanted to figure out a way to do just that without impacting our pretty much our schedule routine here. So next week, we are launching a new content stream that will be available through your current podcast subscription you're listening to right now, as well as YouTube and we're calling it whiskey quickie. as we did with the podcast. We researched the landscape of bourbon reviews on the Internet to see which format will be best for us, YouTube, it's a large segment and the reviews we watch went anywhere from five minutes upwards to almost an hour long. So we're setting off to make whiskey quickie unlike anything out there today. It's a whiskey review with no cutting and no editing and it will be 5:00 Done with a 62nd countdown timer. Sure it may sound rushed. But at first, these reviews are going to give you something else to listen to on Tuesdays while you wait for the usual Thursday podcast release. We're very excited to launch whiskey quickie. And the first episode will premiere on July 16. You can catch whiskey quickie right here on your existing podcast subscription. Or you can head over to YouTube and watch the video version. All right, I think I've talked enough. So let's get on with the bourbon Community Roundtable where we discuss the cultural implications of the Jim Beam fire as well as heaven hills seven year bottled in bond release. But before that, let's hear Joe from barrel bourbon. And then we've got a substitute for above the char with Ryan Cecil. 5:47 Hi, this is Joe Beatrice from barrell craft spirits. Every batch we produce has a distinct flavor profile. We take pride in blending and preserving spirits for the people who enjoy them the most, you. use our store locator to find a retail or a bar near you at barrellbourbon.com 6:02 I'm Ryan Cecil. Yep, that that third show loop. Fred's out of town and Portugal doing something really cool. So you have me this week, what I want to talk to you about is being in the whiskey business, and all the middlemen, and all the hands that are in your pocket. So when Kenny and I started a brand pursuit series, I had no idea how many hands and middlemen would be in our pockets, anywhere from ABC people, to the distributors, to the liquor store owners, to the lawyers, to the barrel brokers, to the label people to the cork people, to the glass people to every people in the world that gets their hand in our pocket, so we can bring someone some bourbon. But, you know, it's kind of frustrating. But then you think about it. And when I was on the phone with a distributor, his kids got in the car. And I was like, well wait a minute. This guy's a family has to pay for. Well, he deserves that. And then you start to 7:00 Thinking about the ABC person that's following your paperwork. And you're like, well, they have a family. I guess they deserve it too. And then you think about the liquor store, and the landlord, and all the people who just make everything happen. And then I'm like, Well, I guess they do deserve it. And so while it is very frustrating, and very 7:20 just greedy of me, selfishly, because I am a consumer, and I proprietor and creator of product that I want to bring the best possible product to my consumers at the best cost. But then, you know, there's a lot of people that were supporting along the way, and it kind of gives me good perspective about why things are the final price they are as they sit on the bar, and that's this week's above the char. Hope I didn't blow it. And we'll see you next time. 7:54 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon Kenny and I 8:00 Ryan here tonight on deep bourbon Community Roundtable number 34. This is where we talk about all the recent news, things have been happening inside the bourbon world and tonight is going to be it's gonna be light on topics, but it's going to be very, very heavy topic. So I'm kind of really excited to talk about this one. But before we jump into it, Ryan, what's been what's been new in your world recently? sweating a lot. It's hotter than hell, the humidity. Like, I think it's like our 12th or 13th day in a row 90 degrees, and it's like, Oh, God, but now it's, uh, I'm excited for the night we actually each of us will probably have some room to talk like, I'm looking at the tiles in front of me and there's, you know, only 1234 you know, where there's normally like, 10. So we all have our chance to chime in. So I like it. Yeah, that's you and you know, you mentioned that humidity I look at is a good thing. Because I always like to think that I'm walking and I'm sweating. I'm losing weight, but maybe it's just not that maybe it really is just the humidity. there and then 9:00 You drink one of those stats and you're like, right back. 9:04 It's like I keep gaining weight but I've been actually sweating too much. That's I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. Yeah, just like working out or go into the sauna or the same thing. Yeah, and white but sweating out those demons. So exactly for sure. Alright, so as usual we're going to do is we're going to go around the horn. So I'm going to go start off my left are Cal Ripken of the bourbon Community Roundtable. Blake welcome back. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is the what are we at 37th round table close. 34 is incredible. round tables. Yeah. So congratulations to everyone on that. Now always great to be here. I'm Blake from bourbon or you can find me on all the inter webs and social medias Bo you are Bo in our calm as well as seal box calm as well. For all your craft beer needs. That's s e l ba ch s Thanks for having me. Spirit shipped right to your 10:00 Door it's about as easy as you can get. Yeah. 10:03 There's, there's no waiting in lines. There's no car. No camping out, you just, you know flip, just go on your own and it's there. It's sometimes free too. So just 10:16 depending on the tear up 10:19 bad we messed things up. It made me show up free 10:22 billing system. 10:26 Nick, go ahead. Alright, I'm Nick from breaking bourbon, one of the three guys behind breaking bourbon breaking bourbon. com. Check us out Facebook, Twitter, Instagram at breaking bourbon. And, hey, glad Glad to be here. I'm kind of back and forth between myself and Jordan. And I think over the past weekend, we convince Eric to start joining in a little bit more too. So you'll see that the man behind the man I think a little bit more here this year. Oh secret 10:55 coming off the bench, like it. And so Nick one thing that I noticed in your back 11:00 Ground was, you all did a new roof pic recently that went through seal box yet a pretty funny yet a pretty funny sticker behind it. I also want you to kind of talk about that one. Yeah, so these are some of the pics here. It's actually still still waiting on my bottles but it's just a test sticker on there if you can see that. So we kind of wanted to play with the other end of the rift thing. So wrestlers mom, Striffler, you know, so Steve sticklers, everybody they can relate to that, interestingly, just had a 20 year reunion so that movie actually came out American Pie came out during the summer after graduation of high school and before college so needless to say it was a fun summer. But as soon as that kind of came up and and we started a band around the idea, I think it just stuck and so we went with so how many more riff ideas are there going to be out there? 11:56 I've had more inquiries about wrestlers, moms, people seeing the sticker inside 12:00 Hey, so how do I get one of those? Like, well, you got to be the number one Patreon supporter I guess so. 12:06 Drinking bourbon. 12:09 They are sold out though now to think right Blake they sold out today through the major supporters, but 12:17 it didn't take long. No, no, no. I've seen Ken Griffey Jr. I've seen Rick James. 12:25 Yeah. So so we got a few more riff puns, I think still available but riff a mania. Yeah, there's there's so many out there. There's a lot of good ones too. Alright. And so to our resident lawyer, Brian, how's it going? Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me again. Great to be here. This is Brian with sip and corn. You can find me on Twitter Instagram now finally and and Facebook at sipping corn and online at sipping corn calm or bourbon justice calm and again. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this one. It's so before we dive into it, Brian did I see something it was posted by Brad at little bit earlier today. I guess 13:00 There was a paper or something that was published that that you had done recently that he finally said, at least he put it on his Facebook for me that's no bread Atlas. he's a he's a friend of the show he was on talking about four roses and barrel pics and stuff like that. But he said that he was quoted in one of your I don't want to say like dissertation. I don't know what you call it, but you know, whatever it is. Well, yeah, it's it's close to that. It's basically the scholarly journal side of of what lawyers do. And I had an article published in a Law Journal from University of Kentucky and I for the bourbon history and to make a point about how much bourbon enthusiast dive deep into these issues, quoted some of his articles from bourbon and banter. I've had a breaking breaking bourbon citation on there had bourbon truth on there. So I was trying to make a few points about how deep we all dies and how into the weeds we get and those definitely pretty 14:00 Did some of the best examples for it. 14:02 Alright, so Ryan may need to step up our game and just not like bullshit about stuff but put some facts out there 14:09 are optional. 14:12 I can understand why you leave us out. I wouldn't want to be cross check the reference, you know, for for my facts. I appreciate being on that Brian, that was the two year storage experiment. And that was definitely our longest dive in anything. How it was a great deep dive, you know, the oxidation effects. I mean, that was that was fantastic. Yeah, I tried to find a quote from the round table and I just couldn't find anything with factual support. 14:41 The only factual support was actually the stuff that you contributed to. 14:45 I don't want to cite myself. So I caught myself from the Harrison podcast, although I didn't have a plug for the book and the article, so I can't say I didn't quote myself, but 14:56 yeah, so I'll for anybody that's curious about what that is. I'll make sure I put it in 15:00 Show Notes the podcast so you can go and check that out at your own leisure because it is it is a long long thing to read. I scroll through like the first two pages and I was like am I almost done? Oh crap is like 18 more to go so I I'll put that out there if somebody else that wants to see it. Yeah, that's the insomnia cure it is maybe just just go to the to the parts where I quote the fellow bloggers and then be done. That's fine. Perfect. 15:26 So there you go, Kenny. 15:29 I don't know. Let's let's see how much I can drink tonight. We'll see you go to sleep later. 15:33 There you go. Yeah. So let's go ahead and let's move on to our first topic of conversation tonight. And this one is really focused around that was it was the big news last week. In this was the Jim Beam warehouse fire. It's estimated somewhere around like 45,000 barrels may have been lost in the gym be warehouse fire. And this is just down the road of castle and key in the Glens Creek distillery near Milledgeville, Kentucky. And if you put this into perspective 16:00 That's about half of the 92,000 barrels that were lost during the heaven Hill distillery fire of 96. And that's when seven Rick houses had actually burned to the ground. And at that time, that loss represented about 2% of the nation's bourbon supply at that time. And I think we can all kind of look at it and really say that this is a this is a big travesty, right? This is a tragedy for all that involved. There were people that were commenting and saying things like, Oh, it's only white label, who cares are saying, Oh, I have pre fire odd 114 and I'll go ahead and post it for sale. Or people were joking and saying as jack daniels starting the fire saying how Alcoholics Anonymous benefit from it. I mean, let's take a step back and think about it like, is this really like the current state of affairs of what we see? 17:00 In the bourbon community and what we should expect when something like this happens when there's millions and millions of dollars on the line for a very large organization, there are firefighters that are sitting there trying to contain the fire that are trying not to spread to people's homes in the area, and people are just just making  jokes at him. I mean, is this is this natural? Like, is this what we could expect from here on out? I think one thing to point out is that no one got injured or died or anything in it, which is the key thing, I think the mood could have been very different. If that was the case and that scene right up front that was the message that was out there. And I think because of that, you know that the tone was able to be different or you know, people may be felt they could, you know, be different with the tone as a result of that. And that's really probably the biggest thing is that you know, you have these what could be really pretty scary incidents happening that you know, fortunately we haven't had you know, anything really seriously happen anyone to get injured or 18:00 You're killed, you know, more more recently in some of these more major, highly publicized ones. So I think that plays into it in this case as well. Yeah, it's kind of been a blackout for bourbon warehouses the past two years. I mean, it's like how many more can like, you know, get some, some natural disaster or something collapse? It's like, it just kind of makes you realize that, like, how old this stuff is, and like, I don't know, that kind of needs, probably some intervention, maybe to kind of protect them more like not just like, Oh, it's been there. It's been built forever. It's all good, you know, so. Yeah, it's just it's just been happening too much lately, I think. And it's kind of serious because we all go and barrel pics and we're all in those things. And tons of tourists go in and out of them. I'm really just, 18:49 you know, it's just kind of scary. You know that all this has happened so much recently. So I think people need to take it more seriously than then than just, oh, it's a white label or it's 19:00 Don't drink the water that's going in, you know, they'll Fall River don't drink it. You know, it's it's definitely more serious than that. So it's something we need to the community needs take serious and you know, the the distilleries as well. 19:12 Yeah, I think that's there's there's a few comments in the chat saying, you know, is this a Rick house problem ovulate like is it is it the age it's catching up on these things? You know, the Barton side that most certainly could have been a problem because there was maybe lack of oversight in regards of maintenance or something like that. However, this this what happened to Jim Beam was a lightning strike. And from what I understand is that lightning poles are pretty ubiquitous anywhere. So they're, they're stationed around the properties and that's what's supposed to basically detract the lightning to go away from most of the warehouses. They're installed in a lot of places. However, you know, it's lightning. So by Reza lightning hopefully doesn't strike twice in the right spot or the single sure, but the the 20:00 warehouses are grandfathered. They don't have sufficient sprinkler systems like the new ones. If you have a if you're Rick is so many barrels, you're not required to have them. It's like, okay, you know, the these are like serious things that, you know that, you know, people can get hurt and I think they need to take it seriously. That's just not some warehouse out there. 20:21 I don't know. Yeah, this this used to happen a lot more historically. I mean, there were five I don't know about the collapses, but there were definitely fires. And there were all kinds of injuries and in warehouses in it distilleries generally. So I think we're probably looking at it in the context of the big bourbon boom lately, so we're all more people are paying attention to it. I mean, if this happened 10 years ago, probably barely be a blip. But sure fires happen. And I think what we might see is is a change to have the the ground built up around them to contain 21:00 The any spirits that get out because we've got a fish kill on the Kentucky River now i mean it's it's a real ecological problem when this happens so I expect to see some some of this grandfather and kind of get questioned and in some of these warehouses might need to be brought up to more current code yeah I think the you know the cynicism is kind of natural and in anything like this you know think just about anything serious that happens there's going to be somebody in a lot of us take this as a hobby so it's only natural to joke about it when you know in real life there's people whose livelihoods and all that kind of depend on it which you know you look at this and while beams a massive Corporation This is probably still a $40 million plus loss so that that is a big thing that should be taken serious. I know David from rare bird was saying I think it was on Twitter somewhere just like 22:00 This is just what happens with something like this. You're just going to have the people joking around about it. And it's unfortunate to an extent but at some point it's like, you know what else are we can't just sit here and mourn the loss of barrels as well you know, as long as nobody got hurt 22:16 I don't know the I'm not going to be posting a bunch of pre fire Jim Beam jokes, but at the same time, we didn't delete them from the bourbon or group either. I didn't feel like it was that offensive? I guess I 22:28 heard a whole lot more offensive stuff then then warehouse jokes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I agree with that. And I just kind of took it took it in stride. It's going to happen. 22:41 Any kind of news is going to get turned into a meme these days. And that's not the bourbon world. That's that's anything you know, that very serious issues happen and somehow it becomes like, a funny picture with some words on it. 22:54 And sometimes you need comic relief for service, what kind of helping me to pass that or it doesn't 23:00 seem like it's been happening a lot. And maybe that's just because we're focusing on a lot more. Now, you know, it's, it's interesting to hear Brian say that this was very, was much more prevalent, you know, long time ago, you know, I guess maybe 30 4050 years ago 23:17 but you would think we'd have a little more safeguards in place to stop some of the stuff especially like the collapses you know, you think building codes and everything would and inspections would improve that kind of stuff, but lightning strike that's pretty you can't really avoid that unless you just have fire sprinkler systems and that kind of stuff. 23:39 Yeah, absolutely. And Blake you kind of reminded me something of like you know, you and you to to Ryan of saying like you have to make light of a certain situation, you know, and I don't know like when the the too soon thing really, you know, supposed to like play a part into this. But, you know, it reminds me of like one of my favorite comedians is Daniel Tosh. And he says like, nothing is off limits. 24:00 And it's kind of funny it's like I think about it now thinking back I was like yeah well maybe maybe when is that that boundary or that you know whenever Can you say something about it and and I guess in this light you look at it you say well at this point it is a financial loss there was nobody that was hurt there were people that put their lives on the line but it wasn't to the point where you know it's it's not like any of us had like a barrel in there that was like our thing and we're like running in there to go save it right it was it was just like it was a contained fire. They let it burn. I think I read a news article on who he is or something like that they were talking to one of the fire marshals and they're like yes is the best smelling fire we've ever been to you know it's like one of those things that even the fire marshals are kind of having a good time with it you know i but i think it might just be in in poor taste sometimes if it's like 30 minutes minute Yeah, yeah. Like hey, let's let I was gonna use upon us. Let's let the fire settle or dust settle. 25:01 Now my digit but you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, give it a little bit of time. Make sure everyone's Okay. And then it's like, okay, it's fine. Today's Blake, you're clear. I'm good. Okay, good. Good. 25:11 I mean, I've heard estimates says is like $270 million in losses. 25:16 That seems like a lot for 45,000 barrels. Well, I mean, you got think 5000 a barrel, you know, probably, I mean, it's cheap stuff that they're getting, like, probably 250 plus bottles out of I mean, and then you times about 40,000. So I don't know that's I was thinking replacement cost. Yeah, you gotta wonder what the 25:36 $250 a barrel, then they've got to rebuild the warehouse. 25:42 But, yeah, I could be way off in one opportunity costs too. So you're just it's just proud of you that they don't take. I guess they do have a min sure. But you know, it seems like okay, I could spend 500 grand on a warehouse to get sprinkler or whatever you know, correctly to help. Save maybe I don't know. 26:00 Maybe I'll just lay off all our Donald music or Donald Blanco. 26:05 It was tragic to me those this and people keep calling it the beam fire, which of course it is. But it's it's Old Crow. And I don't know when these I didn't pay attention when these were built. But this is a distillery built in the 18 seven days I think it was 1870 I think is when old crows built. I don't know if those date back that long. But if if ever we were going to have a revitalization of the Old Crow brand and if they were ever going to bring that distillery back as some kind of tour destination like they have that old Taylor for castle and key mean we're losing out on those opportunities and and that's, that's what bums me out the most since there wasn't any injuries about this. Brian, I think you bring up a good point too, because I know Fred, who couldn't be on tonight. He kind of made a mentioned to me in a text message and saying like, this is this is scary. 27:00 You know it was going was happening is like not just for the fire and everything he's like he's talking about the visitors like the people of bourbon and really what this can mean, saying that this should if if more of these things happen whether they're fires, whether warehouse collapses, any sort of distillery mishap that makes headlines, he said this could completely change any visitor experience you ever go to. It could completely change any barrel pic experience you ever go on. Like they could eventually get to the day where they're saying like no, like, we're not allowing anybody else in the warehouses, like we're getting a hard hat or anything like that, you know, I mean, Kenny and I experienced that for Barton pick 79 to pick and you know, there was lightning in the air and they're like, no way we're gonna do it inside and it's not as fun, you know, being in a little tasting room, but luckily the skies cleared and they let us go back in there. But yeah, it's your he's totally right. And it's for the right reasons, though. Sure, absolutely. is legitimately it's it's legitimate, but actually 28:00 I always think when I think of the sterile experience, I think of the heaven Hill downtown. I mean, it's, it's like Disney Land, and you don't get any sort of real experience there. And that's, I mean, that's could be what this turns into if the insurance companies won't insure the distilleries if they let people in, I mean, that's who's going to drive it. It's can you get coverage? Or can you get coverage that you can afford? And maybe you have to limit it to visitor centers and kind of the Disneyland look. Yeah. Right. There would be a detriment that would be a sad thing to see happen. Yep. But I would play this angle though to you know, I get sent a link in that from a lot of people are outside of bourbon who just know that I'm into bourbon and so they sent the link but from somebody's perspective, that's not really involved in bourbon. You know, they're so bombarded with bad things happening all the time. You know, do you look at something like this and not really think anything of it? You know, because you're not involved. No one was injured or hurt you 29:00 You see bad so much worse stuff than this happen on a daily basis in the news, depending on what you watch, you know, so in the big scheme of things, it the impact is really a lot more just, you know, the enthusiast and that specific kind of bourbon crowd or the potential impact is there, you know, in addition to the environmental stuff, you know, but again, that gets to kind of just all those bad things just cycling through the news on a daily basis. No, you're totally right. And and who knows if this might have been a you know, a smaller craft distillery who knows if you made headlines especially around the nation just because of the size and the impact it what it was I mean, you know, if I saw a quote from john little from smooth Ambler he put on Facebook and you know, he said that it's sad to see these kind of incidents like no matter the size of the company, and he says I often put myself in smooth anglers position and a tragedy like this would be completely devastating to his type of business. So it definitely is a scalar 30:00 too. Wow when it comes to it, so, yeah, they lose 45,000 barrels. They're done. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I think at this point I think we can kind of move on we've we're all we're all kind of fired up. Is it too soon? 30:18 For a pre fire heaven Hill. Alright, so, so I won't do that. But yeah, now we're going to go into kind of the the next topic and this is the one that I think it's might have been a little bit old news by now but we're going to go ahead and kind of spark the situation back up because it's the roundtable and why not because this is gonna be a lot of the opinions of really what we see of what's happening inside of the the bourbon community and everything like that. So everybody kind of remembers about, oh gosh, what was it about a year and a half ago, and this was something that we had talked about in the roundtable plenty of times. Nick had talked about it, saying you know, every time I come down to Kentucky what I do, I grab a few bottles of 31:00 Heaven hills six year bottle and bond and I take it back home with me it's some of the best bourbon at $12 a you know 750 ml that you can get on the shelves. In a year and a half ago they had announced that there was going to be a I guess the retirement or the phasing out of this particular product. When that announcement happened shelves started clearing I mean gone and Kentucky here and there and everywhere. It ended up getting the point where I think now you can actually still get on the secondary market. It's somewhere around like $40 for 750. So you get scarcity. People hoard it people buy it up. This is what happens. And now since they did discontinue a beloved $12 six year product and they haven't Hill is now I don't want to say relaunching they are launching almost a similar product. It is their seven year heaven Hill, bottle and bond. So with this comes a few different things, you get an additional year. It's just 32:00 Bottom bond so it's still 100 proof however it comes with a 233% price increase about three times the price. So you're going from $12 so around 3999 MSRP and with this It also comes in its initial launch is also limited availability only available in like I think eight states across the US. So before we start diving into kind of like the business side how do we compare this other things in the market but look at I'm going to kind of pose it to you all and Ryan I'll I'll kind of ask you first. Was this the right move by Heaven hill? 32:37 You know, I love heaven Hill, but man, they bought a lot of things like the logic Craig 12 year age statement, like moving into the back label, then moving it to the side and then saying, No, it's not going away. And then it goes away, you know, and then this, it's like, I don't care what they do, just like see up for about it. Who cares? You know, like, I'm still gonna love you. But uh, I think 33:00 Yeah, they should have just been like, Hey guys, given the market, we have a great product. You know, there's stuff out there on the market. That's whitelist age. Not as good. You know, with a bigger price tag, we feel like this is what it's worth. And here you go, and I would have been like, yep, you're totally right. I totally agree with you. Give me my seven year for 40 bucks, but not still will do that because it's gonna be a great product but uh, yeah, it's just I don't know why they do that. I just don't understand but but I will say that I am wearing my heaven Hill hat tonight to make sure that I am showing support for the brand because I still love the brand. Yeah, of course. 33:37 And yeah, I mean, it is. I don't know I mean, I don't know if it's a dagger to the heart for a lot of bourbon consumers or bourbon lovers out there because you're wrong like this is on the shelves for a very, very long time around here and it's not like it was flying off. It was just, it was just a it was a great value for what it was. But before we do that, you know, dive into more of it. Blake kind of talk about your side. Do you think this was the right move by Heaven Hill to 34:00 to kind of get rid of it and relaunch it. Yeah, I think it was definitely the right move. Not from you know, my perspective as a consumer, but from a business standpoint, it was the best move they can make. You know, I can't imagine what the cost is on a, you know, six year old bourbon, but the margins probably weren't huge. They've basically learned through all these other things of, you know, moving the the 12 year to the back labeled and pulling it off completely then kind of redesigning the laser Craig barrel proof and, you know, they took away Elijah Craig 18 year and reintroduced it a couple years later at four times the price three times the price around there, they realize they can kind of do whatever they want. And yes, a small group of us will kind of cry foul but overall the market still embraces it and still buys it and, you know, it's just kind of keep doing what they want to do. 35:00 And they know that the that the product was undervalued. So they said, Okay, let's put it out at a higher price people will still buy in, it's still a pretty good deal. You know, I have a different perspective on it because I'm not in Kentucky. So it's not something I could regularly get. 35:17 So it's not like I'm missing out on anything. It's in my mind. I'm, it's a plus to me, because I'll actually now have a 30 to $40 What's the retail 4040 $40 bottom, but in that I'm just going to go by Elijah Craig, which is, you know, slightly proof down but probably a little bit older. 35:39 So, I mean, from a business standpoint, I think that's ultimately the right move. And we have given heaven Hill more than enough reason to believe that the market will not care and they'll still go buy it. So yeah, well, 35:54 yeah, 90% of market that probably didn't even know that it was like Kentucky, only six year product. 36:00 999 or whatever so you know, who gives a shit about these Barkin few that now that could turn on them really quickly if things start to get a little bit tighter and they need, you know the enthusiast market again, but I still think we're a little ways out on that happening. Yeah, so I don't know. I mean, what I've loved to see another great value bourbon that's still really underpriced. Yes, of course, I think we'd all want to see that. But at the end of the day, it's a business and yeah, I'm guessing they made the right business move. I just have one more point before we move on Kenny to the next person. I think the biggest travesty here is that like you said, you'll go by logic Craig for whatever or Henry McKenna whatever Well, they're going up to so that's just the nature of the progression that's happening here and so it's just gonna slowly move on. brands. You know, you look at it heaven hills had bought 37:00 far the most value based Bourbons for the longest time you know you think of Henry mechanics in your you think of Evan Williams single barrel you think of Elijah Craig was 12 years for a light while even the ledger credit barrel proof in my mind is still a pretty good by depending on where you are. It's a great you know, j w Dan bottled in bond like that is a great bottle for $20. So, you know, while we want to kind of cast that first stone, it's kind of like there's still a lot of other great bourbon out there. 37:35 So that's why it's like hey, Cashin make your money go make build some more warehouses or something. 37:41 Yeah. So Nicole, can I ask you a question? Like, do you think the the idea with this was to try and compete with other brands in the market like the Woodford and the knob creaks that are around that $40 price range? You know, I think it's interesting thinking about before I answer 38:00 That question thing about the progression that it took, which was the undiscovered, nobody talked about it. It's in maybe dusty on the shelf for 12 bucks in Kentucky, and then it kind of got discovered. And that's when you started at people were outside of Kentucky coming in, like me, I was one of them. And I would buy a lot of it just because quite frankly, the price was really the draw it was the value relative to the price, it was good for the price. And it's not like I stockpiled it, that's what I would take to a party and I would leave the bottle there. And then I'd get texts from whoever's house it was those a party saying, Hey, I'm drinking this now. And I'd be like, fantastic. You know, it's only available in Kentucky enjoy it, you know, that kind of a thing. And then I think what happened was you started seeing more people clear the shelves because it kind of became obvious that maybe this wasn't going to go on forever, and it was such a good value. And so looking at the perspective from heaven Hill, you know, why sit there and let that happen. If the idea was it's kind of always available for people in Kentucky, and suddenly kind of not available. It looks like it's not going to be available. You're not really doing 39:00 Anyone any favor? So I agree, I think that was a smart move exactly how they went about doing it and why I think that's kind of the next question that you're asking Kenny is, you know, what is this product? What is it supposed to be? What's their goal with the product? I remember them talking about Elijah Craig, and saying, well, we could have kept a 12 year on and just raise the price. But they said, We don't want it. We want a product that's successful, we really want to keep the price about the same. How do we do that we want to build a brand and have this really always on shelves, we don't want it to be well, or 12. We want it to be go to the store and you can buy it, you know, that type of thing. So now the question is, is is this going to be their flagship? 39:37 Do they want this available? Always, you know, everybody, do they want you to comparing it to like, is that a Woodford or something like that? I think that's yet to be determined. You know, I think they had to do something to it, you know, changing the price a lot. They added a year to it. It's kind of like we can't just do the exact same thing. And then it looks a lot more I think what would be iconic or symbolic of where their branding and 40:00 Where everything is going, you know, where it does really come across as here's a representation of us. They push bottled in bond, I start to wonder if how much they push value versus we perceived value. It's kind of a curious point of mine is, where does that come from? Because it does step outside of that boundary. And I think it does step outside that boundary of everything's overwhelmingly high value. Now, you're asking the question, saying, well, this maybe isn't, you know, and you know, to that the price might be the same for the next 10 years. And they may know that to that you don't see a lot of these really creep up in price unless the retailers are doing a lot of times they'll keep them the same. So I think that's yet to be determined, where we're really going to see this and how it's going to be, you know, kind of viewed and consumed in the marketplace and where they want that, you know, the consumer today, Brian, I want to kind of let you kind of give your your opinion. I mean, do you think this is this is competing within those those different price points of the woods and they're not creeks that are out there? 40:58 Hey, it's Kenny here, and I want to tell you 41:00 About the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. It will be happening on August 24. In Frankfort, Kentucky. It's called bourbon on the banks. You get to enjoy bourbon beer and wine from regional and national distilleries while you struggle with things along the scenic Kentucky River. There's also going to be food vendors from regional award winning chefs. Plus you get to meet the master distillers and brand ambassadors you've heard on the show, but the kicker is bourbon pursuit. We're going to be there in our very own booth as well. Your $65 ticket includes everything all food and beverage on Saturday. Plus, you can come on Friday for the free Bourbon Street on Broadway event. 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Go to rack house whiskey club com to check it out and try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 43:28 Brian, I want to kind of let you kind of give your your opinion i mean do you think this is this is competing within those those different price points of the woods and the knob Creek center out there? Well $40 is the new $25 and everything that we used to be able to get just five to eight years ago now is going to be $40. So as consumers we just have to accept that. What really struck me the most about this is is a few days after this happened. I was at a continuing legal 44:00 seminar and the Katie a was had a presenter there. And she was and I'd heard this before but totally forgot it. She was saying that 60% of $1 for your spirits purchase in Kentucky goes to Texas. So you've got a you've got a $12 bottle and you've got just over $7 of that goes to some way shape or form to Texas. Heaven Hill can't can't make I mean, I'm sure they're doing fine. But hold on, hold on. You forget the retail who makes money off the retail who makes money in distributor? And then so you have what's left of the actual producer? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I mean, it's you can't you can't sell bourbon for 1199. You just can't. I always treated the the six year as sort of my, my, 44:50 my bar if you had a craft whiskey. That was that was however old and you couldn't be better than a 60 year heaven Hill bottle of 45:00 Bond wasn't going to be worth spending $60 on it when you can get it when I could get at least in Kentucky a $12 bottle of fantastic bourbon. So I as a consumer, I'm sad about it as looking at it from heaven hills perspective, it's a no brainer to Nick's point I totally agree this is so much better than if they had done the exact same product exact same bottle exact same label, cheap plastic white screw top and increase the price to $40 that they couldn't do that they had to do some premium make some premium changes to it. And and they've done that you know that with with the cork and the label and everything else. So it's people are going to buy it, it's it's going to be worth it, you know, air quotes worth it. But as a consumer, I'm sad about it, but it makes sense. I just don't understand why can't they just be honest, like I just don't get what's the advantage of 46:00 Like, let's pull it off the marquee and we'll pretend like we just hit it and we're not 46:07 there they forget about people forget about it. And then it's like, I want to 46:13 like go to bye bye present with your kid at Target and be like, okay, I'll go hide in the closet some Christmas. I mean, I just want to go on these border meetings and be like, Are you serious? Like, do you think we're that stupid? Like, like consumers? I stupid? I guess. It's my point that most of these distilleries just don't care about consumers. But uh, anyways, I don't care. I totally understand why they're doing it. Yes. $12 a bottle. I mean, we sell bourbon. We can't sell. I couldn't even sell it for $90 a bottle and make money so it's, I totally get it. Just don't be. Don't fool us. We're not idiots like it. Was that the case though? Or was it just you know, I guess looking at it. I'm not at all surprised even when it happened. I really kind of assumed this was coming. I was just not sure what it was going to be exactly. And all 47:00 Lot of cm, I'm surprised the prices as low as it is I kind of thought they were going to go more the old Fitz route and have more of a premium thing and kind of step it up that much. So because it is more of the every day price of what you're seeing now, like you said, the new 40s, the new 25, it actually had me a little excited of Hey, this is something hopefully, I can go by now and it's a little bit older, I assume it's going to taste a little bit different than what the six year was. And I'm not really sure. You know, with all these discussions, they knew exactly what the plan was going to be for that they would want to say anything until it was coming. You know, do you want to say it a year before it's ready, you know, because they went from six to seven, you know, or was it 47:43 you know, they just thought the time would be the key that they just thought Oh, after a year people were would forget that's it. I think they got mad as her Brooks won some awards that said, 47:53 you know, screw this was when we all appreciate a press release at this point that just says 48:00 Guys we're gonna make some more money so right 48:04 in your blindly buying anything on the shelf and anything with hundred dollar price tag your dumb uncle's definitely buy in so 48:15 y'all pay way too much attention to bourbon like just take a backseat on this one. It's okay. Yeah, I actually think there's a whole brand opportunity there Blake versus that brand. They just jokes about everything. It's called it and it's 48:29 Yeah. 48:31 That would be incredible though. I would be like, I don't know. I think it would be so awesome if they did that. But instead they gotta do this. You know, play behind the scenes. Ping Pong match. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're right. like nobody, nobody that pays attention to stuff whatever. Forget it, especially for a product that was iconic to I would say a lot of us but at least people that are well known or should I say really know the bourbon landscape very well, like they know about the product. They 49:00 They know where to find it and they know about it. Now the other side of this is perhaps it wasn't their favorite, right? It's a value budget bourbon like that's what they loved about it. It wasn't necessarily say like, Oh, this is this is my unicorn, right? It's not that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be that this is a budget bourbon. But Ryan you'd also mentioned the Ezra Brooks point of view, and I kinda want to look at the competing l side of the market because anybody that okay I mean, well, let's say like as a Brooks barrel proof is basically contract is still haven't helped, right? It's the same exact thing. And now so we're looking at the difference of a barrel proof products from heaven hill at the seven year age David, versus the heaven hell product bottle and bond less proof and the same price point. 49:50 Like, yeah, like, like what gives? So that's that's comes another point like, now who are they competing with? Are they competing against themselves? 49:59 Yeah, no. 50:00 There's no question there's a high value. So to with the Ezra I think that was recognized right away you know, so part of that is that value proposition you know just just just thinking about what you know he always comes into play when you when you think value and you know you get this weird dichotomy with smaller craft distillers where stuffs coming out for higher prices but then in some cases people like God's its craft it's not kind of recognized yet I'm unless you want to support them. It's in some cases it's not really not really there yet. You know, other cases you have, you know, somebody like new riff who's killing it, you know, with a four year and you know, bottled in bond, you know, so here you go is a four years a seven year you know, you look pricing, I mean, do you put them on the same platform for I'm going to compare this to that, or do you say, Well, no, there's a different comparison here because the distillery size and you know, those kinds of things. So that's the questions you always have to, you know, kind of look at and it's only it comes down to just how much you like it, how good it tastes, but it also comes down to 51:00 How they're speaking with you. And I think Ryan, you made a good point, you know, for the enthusiast side because maybe some other people, the general public doesn't care, but you never want to be lied to, and you never want to feel like the world was pulled over your eyes, which, unfortunately, with the Elijah Craig age statement, that was how everybody felt, you know, and so I think, you know, lesson learned, avoid doing that, like think proactively to speak to that group so that you don't you don't lose that, you know, that faith in that community that's behind the distillery. 51:30 Haven't got it. Sorry. Oh, sorry, Nick. What's up riff bottle and bond cost. $55 or no? The bottle the bottle? 51:39 What is it Blake 4040. Yeah, 44 year, Lori. And I think I think a great value. I think it's a great product. Yeah, I guess this caps the secondary price of the six year bottle and bond. Right. 40. Well, now it's the old label though. They changed it. So now it's 52:00 You know, like discovering your phones in a way, right? So you gotta buy on the shelf anymore. Yeah, I want to throw another one out. 52:10 There. Oh, go ahead run. Well, I'll say here you go heaven Hill. I know you're going to do this within the next year, when you write one to raise hundred McKenna's prices, and you change the packaging, and you change the cork, so that you can justify a $20 increase, just say, we are going to change the cork and the label and we're going to raise about 20 bucks because we think it's undervalued. And I will say, Amen, I will go buy it still. 52:33 I think that's a good Brian. It's it though. Like anyone who's paying attention is somebody who cares. anyone's not paying attention doesn't care. So you got to speak to that group. Yep. Yep. And that was Brian, you kind of teed up the next question right there is is we now see an aspect with inside of heaven hill that they're kind of cannibalizing themselves, where they have products that have higher age statements and higher 53:00 was a perceived value and sometimes even higher proof settling for less money then this product that they're putting out so you know, you look at the, the Henry McKenna bottle and bond as you mentioned, you got Evan Williams you got GTS brown you've got GW Dan, you have all of these different products and mind you that is less the less something's changed and I don't know recently but they're they're bourbon not we didn't match up with a regular bourbon mash bill is one bourbon Nashville, like, nothing's changed. So it's the same product that's going into all these just different aging warehouses, locations, so on and so forth. So do you all see themselves as kind of like cannibalizing and like making themselves like, like, they're, they're fighting against themselves in the market with their own products? 53:46 You know, in a way, maybe I think fewer people are going to tie those things together. Then, you know, when you think of the mass market, I'm not sure a lot of people walk in and realize they're coming from the same place at the store. So 54:00 It's still a pretty small percentage that even acknowledges that. It's like, why do you have a CVS on, you know, two blocks away from each other. And it said, well, you're more likely to stop in at the CVS or Walgreens, if it's, you know, right next to you, as opposed to two miles away, it's still not that big of a deal. So if you go into a store, and it's like, all right, what's on the shelf, if you know they only had one product, you're less likely to grab that bottle when there's 100 products on the shelf. So they put eight to 10 out there, you're more likely to grab it. So I think I think the answer to your question Kenny, when I was out at a bourbon event at a different city, and I met some people that just started drinking bourbon six months ago they had no ideal that Eagle rare Buffalo Trace and all you know under that same Nashville were the same exact Nashville and they're like what you're kidding me. Like it's the same Nashville they have no idea that like, all these brands are the same magical, just different prices, different age, whatever. So they just 55:00 Like the modern the everyday consumer has no idea and you pointed them to the bourbon or Nashville breakdowns 55:10 cheat sheet Thank you. You go we give away posters that shit now. 55:16 Thanks for coming here's your match. Oh, yeah, but but I do want to give a shout out to Dave overboard one on one because I know he's he's he's been talking a lot in the chat here is always saying like wild turkey one to one it's still their prices and change so he could always go there. I saw $10 Yeah, comment on that $10 Right, exactly. So he's trying to put his deck in the ground and hoping with bourbon a choice. Yeah. Well, he's also hope with the Campari folks don't start taking a note out of heaven hills playbook here. But then the also kind of thing is, you know, when we look at this, and we look at it from the enthusiast point of view, you know, we are the bourbon enthusiasts. This is if you're listening to this podcast, who are a bourbon enthusiast, it's there's no way getting around it right. You are You are 56:00 The few people that really care, maybe not as much as us, but you care a lot, you care a lot of a niche of a niche. Exactly. And so you kind of look at it and you're like, well, if heaven Hill really wants to make money off the enthusiasm really care about them. This is what David at rubber one one says, maybe should sell single barrels at more than 90 more than 94 proof. Right? Do something more than than just what you can do it Eliza Craig and he's, I think he might be onto something. 56:26 Yes, they were in those single barrel pics, but but selling them at 94 proof. It's, it's a travesty, really. But you know. And so the last kind of thing I want to hit on with this as it's kind of running out this topic here is we have noticed inside of the press release this is this is almost like unheard of to be able to have a bourbon that's being launched, coming from a prestigious distillery inside of Kentucky and it says it's available in eight states and you start looking down and you start looking and there's one or there's there's one abbreviation you don't see. That's k 57:00 You do not see ky as one of the first states that are out there. Now, Ryan and I have a kind of a good inkling of why this might be. And I'll kind of let Ryan take it here. So Ryan, kind of kind of give your your thought and your process of why wouldn't you go and make Kentucky and available market on day one? 57:20 Because I know they'll sell it no matter what, whenever it gets here. So I gotta go spread to the masses and 57:28 get the new consumers, which I understand, you know, it's totally cool. But it's like Fred always talks about you can't forget the people that brought you to the dance. You know, it's like, Yeah, I don't know. I it's, it's frustrating, but, you know, that's totally Wow. But it's just great to see you know, okay, why not get something that the rest of us 57:54 in New York is on that list. So that means you three to six months after it's released. We'll see you next 58:00 Yeah. 58:02 It's like, you know, Florida all the fun releases are going to come after everyone's Instagram has been flooded with with pictures of these new releases non stop button. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I mean, right now we were talking about this because he recently took a trip and it's kind of like, Kentucky is very, very small in the picture things. You know, we Yeah, yeah, I mean, saying that, you know, yes, there's there's 4 million plus barrels of whiskey aging and Kentucky. That's more than the population of Kentucky. Guess what? That's a that's about half the size of Dallas. Yeah, it's like there then you got these like Houston and LA and New York that are, you know, just even bigger. It's like, yeah, yeah. So even even when you look at per capita buying, which I'm sure is higher here, you're still not touching, not even close to the bigger markets. Yeah, because I think California and Texas obviously because every 59:00 The biggest population but, you know, I mean, they're just crushing Kentucky and far as you know, consuming power and booze. 59:09 Trying to change one bottle at a time. You know, that's very interesting, just kind of going back to these brands are realizing they don't need the enthusiast nearly as much as kind of as the initially Yeah, as we hope. You know what starts happening when this stuff stops hitting Kentucky as much because overall, Kentucky still gets the lion's share of a lot of the allocated bourbon. And to my knowledge, this is the first one that kind of gave the Kentucky snub. So 59:40 it'll be interesting to see what happens, you know if if that's kind of hurts the brand overall, or they just find a new market and never looked back. So it'll be interesting. 59:52 No, I think you're totally right. I think this is going to be it could be one of those pivotal moves we start seeing in regards to the market and how things 1:00:00 Shifting when somebody is going to launch a product where they're going to launch it and they're going to look at the target markets they're going to look at where do where do the most bourbon consumers live. Now granted Kentucky is there but Kentucky is also a large state Kentucky isn't the size of Houston right like Houston's a pretty big populace actually it's a much bigger populace than Kentucky is a state right? So yeah, that might be the that might be the the idea of like maybe that's where you go like that's where the money is. And not only that is there's this is this is not a game of you know, trying to target a particular kind of consumer like this is a game of people with disposable income that are buying Kentucky's a poor state. I mean, they're one of the you know, probably top 10 poorest states in the if not even higher than in the in the country. So I mean, there's not a lot of people with disposable incomes that can just drop money on expensive Barb's all the time, but we spend it on rep tickets and bourbon and that 1:01:00 Sorry. 1:01:03 But what was that the thinking though? Or? I mean, does something play into? I didn't because it is. I mean, it is really odd that it was a Kentucky only release. And and kind of coming back, you know, you think like that's the narrative that it was Kentucky only and we're going to start in Kentucky. So you know, was it because they wanted more momentum in other states first or, you know, was there a concern that it was going to be received or perceived really negatively? Because, you know, you took it away and then and then brought it back at at the price that's coming back at you know, you gotta wonder if there's more to it, then just, this is what's going to give them most momentum. As much as you know, was there a PR play that got banter back and forth about where do we start here? Because it seems like it's going to be everywhere. And it seems like wherever it is, it's new. It's talked about, it's probably going to do pretty well. 1:01:54 So it is really odd that it didn't start in Kentucky. I gotta admit that despite thinking it's a smart move 1:02:00 Not being in Kentucky is really, it makes me wonder how they came to that conclusion. Well, I mean, it could be like, Oh, well, it's been in your state for the past. How many years? Have 1:02:12 you been here about a year and a half ago? Like, let's go somewhere else? You know, it could be that you didn't care until we said we were going to pull it and then then it got popular. Yep. 1:02:24 Absolutely. So let's go ahead and let's let's kind of finish this one on a on a fun little touchy subject too, because why not? Right. So this was a question that kind of came in over Twitter and it was kind of in regards of secondary market pricing and retailers and how do you justify buying stuff and so Kurt Bella Lawsky sa

0:10 [Yong Pratt] This episode is being brought to you by my work-LESS, stress, less-LESS, and guilt-LESS Strategies for a Successful Summer Training Bundle. These 21 strategies are the best, most popular, most impactful and actionable strategies that can help you craft your most ideal summer, all while working less, stressing less, and guilty less. Until June 10, you can grab this entire bundle for only $19. It's a total steal when compared to the hundreds of hours of interviews I've done to gather these 21 strategies for you. Grab your copy today at yongpratt.com/bundle. And now let's dive into today's topic.1:12 [Yong Pratt] If you've ever been scrolling through your newsfeed, and all of a sudden you stop because the graphics you see are just so scroll-stopping good. Well, I have something special for you on today's episode of the In a Weekend Podcast.1:29 [Yong Pratt] I'm your host, Yong Pratt. It's my great pleasure to welcome you to this podcast, where we help you to simplify, to automate and to leverage the often hidden assets inside your business quickly.1:33 [Yong Pratt] On the last podcast, we talked all about using your transcriptions to create graphics and pull them out of text. And then we talked about how to use those texts and create some beautiful graphics. So today, our special guest is Nicole Thompson. She is a 28-year graphic design pro that has helped thousands of businesses really up their game as far as their branding. Today she's agreed to come share some of the secrets of the pros when it comes to creating those scroll-stopping graphics.2:21 [Yong Pratt] Nicole, welcome to the show.2:23 [Nicole Thompson] Hi, Yong. Thank you so much for having me here today. I'm excited to be here.2:27 [Yong Pratt] Absolutely. It's always my pleasure to get to connect with you or to talk with you. And of course, share the wealth of knowledge that you have about graphic design, and all the other amazing things like your podcast, with everybody who is listening to this episode. So Nicole, can you talk about some design fundamentals? Can we go back to the beginning when we talk about what makes good design from a 28 year design pro?3:02 [Nicole Thompson] Absolutely. Well, one of the biggest things that I see as a mistake that people make in creating the graphics for social media is they try to cram way too much copy on one little space. Because if you think about, say, your Instagram stories, you have these little blips of time that people are trying to hurry and read your text. And if you're giving them too much all in one bite, it's just too much to digest.3:32 [Nicole Thompson] So the one of the biggest tricks is to keep it really, really simple. You want to minimize the amount of text that you have, and try and get your message out in one fell swoop. So if you have a graphic that is going to be really bright and colorful, and you have a lot of things going on in your image, you don't necessarily want to have a ton of copy for people to try read at the same time. It just takes away from it.3:59 [Nicole Thompson] And when you confuse the eye, you're going to end up losing the interest.4:03 [Yong Pratt] Absolutely. I've heard that in different way...when you confuse people they always say no. So that's an interesting thought. So as far as creating beautiful graphics that go maybe on Instagram or your Facebook feed or elsewhere, are there rules to maybe the number of words you want to include on a single piece of an asset like that?4:26 [Nicole Thompson]There's not necessarily a rule of how many words you want to use. If you're going to say, use it for a story, I would recommend adding layers so that as the story progresses, they get to read more bit by bit, as the story continues through Instagram or Facebook.4:47 [Nicole Thompson] As far as a single graphic, if you're looking at it just in the news feed, you want something that's going to be easy to read. Something that's going to grab their attention and something they can get through quickly. Because the average attention span that we have nowadays is about three seconds. When that that scroll goes by and you're lucky if you get them to look that long.5:10 [Yong Pratt]Right. And I love that you brought up the point about being easy to read, because I'm one who loves a really a scripty font. I don't use them often, though, because if I have trouble reading them, and I know what they say. I'm sure that anyone who looks at probably thinks...come on, what does that even say?5:30 [Yong Pratt] So can we talk about how we use fonts when we think about creating, especially for social media?5:37 [Nicole Thompson] Yes, absolutely. Because I know exactly what you're talking about with scripty fonts. They're beautiful, they're gorgeous and they're really fun to use if you really want to get something pretty going and they're really tempting because they are pretty. But as soon as you start using more than say about three or four words in a script font, it shrinks down way too small.6:02 [Nicole Thompson] The average person is also looking at these social media feeds on their phone. So it's shrinking down to about two to three inches max that they're able to see this thing. Compile that with a background picture and you're going to lose people's interest. Because the second they start getting frustrated with not being able to decipher what it says, they're going to scroll on by.6:27 [Yong Pratt] And that's a really great thing you brought up as well - thinking about you have this device. When you're creating, before you put it out, is it advisable to look at on your phone to see how it looks before you put it on social media? So we know that it's not confusing, it's easy to read?6:45 [Nicole Thompson] Absolutely, absolutely. Because if you picture, you put something that's got 1000 words on it on a big bulletin board, people are going to be able to see that fine. But the second you shrink it down and you try to tell your whole story, in that one little blip of a image, you're you're just going to aggravate people and they're going to scroll away.7:08 [Yong Pratt] So true. And I have done that myself where if I look at something, especially on social, and I'm not there for any particular purpose, it's really easy to scroll by graphics that I'm sure people have invested a lot of money in or spent a lot of time creating. But they're not visually appealing. because, like you said, they're confusing. The script is not readable and there's just way too much busyness on it then I'll just keep scrolling.7:36 [Yong Pratt] So today is all about how do we stop the scroll?7:40 [Nicole Thompson] Exactly.7:42 [Yong Pratt] If we're going to boil down design, this is a big ask, if you were to boil down the idea of creating graphics that people really stop their scroll and stop to look at, can you give us maybe three or four sort of elements of what we want to be thinking about as we're designing?8:04 [Nicole Thompson] Absolutely, I'd be happy to. The key concept that I tend to teach is I call it give it a K-I-S-S. - Keep it super simple. So when you want to convey your message, you put it together in as brief a statement as possible. Get a nice pop of color. Not necessarily a busy graphic, but a nice pop of color. Make it super, super legible. And nice, clean, crisp, bold font.8:36 [Yong Pratt] Such good advice. So good. Because again, it's tempting, I know I love going into places like Canva, and there's so many options. And so many fonts and so many colors. And it's really easy to put too much in there. And then when that happens, it's just you know, people are swiping by or scrolling up. And, and we don't want anyone to not stop and look at what you're creating because if you're spending any kind of resources on this, we definitely want to try to really make it appealing and captivating for our audiences.8:43 [Yong Pratt] Nicole, is there a tool that you recommend? Maybe, maybe you are listening and they've never designed anything, they've always hired it out? Maybe they're tired of having to pay those really big bucks times? Or wait weeks and months? What do you recommend to start?9:32 [Nicole Thompson] Well, you've already said Canva is a great resource because you can either use their free version, or what I tend to gravitate towards is the Canva Pro, which is it's just got a lot more layers got lot more functionality to it. And it's not very expensive per month, it's really inexpensive to use. And there is just limitless options of what you can create. But again, I go back to saying all those options can be very tempting to want to use all at once. We've had to really show restraint. That is probably the key thing with any social media graphics is showing that restraint and pulling back. I know you have like a million things that you want to get out there, but you don't need to do it all in one graphic.10:21 [Yong Pratt] And that's a really, really great idea. Because on the series, we've talked about Multiplying Your Message. So if you have your transcript from an interview like this, like you've done, you can pull out several things that can be little tweets, little short, little snippets. And maybe you create five or even 10 from every single transcripts. That's far better, because now you have 10 pieces of content, or five or three. And again, you started with that one piece of video or audio content. And it's all about how do you get the most bang for your buck?11:03 [Nicole Thompson] Exactly.11:05 [Yong Pratt] If someone is scared about, about getting started, because again, they've never done this, they've never heard of Canva or they've heard of it and just have been intimidated by it, what words of wisdom can you share with them about just start because you never know what you're going to create until you start doing something?11:27 [Nicole Thompson] Exactly. It's It's so you're so right with that, Yong because if we never start, if we never put anything out there, we're never going to reach the people that we need to reach the people that are looking for what we have to offer. Because we all have something special that we we can share with the world something that we've learned how to do and we've mastered.11:51 [Nicole Thompson] But there may be just in the beginning stages, and they need to learn how to do this, but they don't know where where to turn to get started. And Canva is a very good way to do that. Because it is very easy to use. And yes, there's a lot of components to it there. There are several different sections that take a little finesse, learning how to do. But the basics are right there. They're easy for you as a lot of drag and drop. And it's a super simple program to get the hang of. And if you're, you're just starting out, you can get something out there. You can tweak it, you can play with it, you're never going to make a big mistake. Because I mean, in social media, we know it's gone and blink anyway. So it's always a good idea to at least get something up, get started and start getting your message out in front of you.12:47 [Yong Pratt] And you're a little tip to for all your parents or grandparents or, or anyone with kids in your life at all. Kids are really really adapt and learn quickly. My girls who are 15 and 12, they have been using Canva, now for a couple of years and they adore it. It is their go-to for graphics. My oldest actually has submitted some artwork for to STEM fairs. And she's won first place in both of those for digital design using Canva. So it really is a platform designed for anyone at any level. Yeah, absolutely.13:30 [Yong Pratt] And Nicole, I know you have something, you put something special together. Because when it comes to graphic design, it can feel overwhelming. It can feel intimidating. And I know for me personally, when I get that point of overwhelm, you kind of tend to walk away. And sometimes I don't always come back. And we want to make sure, if you're listening to this podcast, you're watching this video, we don't want that to happen to you. Nicole, can you share what you have created to help people overcome those initial steps of just starting?14:04 [Nicole Thompson] Absolutely. I created a course called Designer in a Day. And what it teaches is the basics of getting started with Canva Pro. It's taught on the desktop version, because yes, there is a mobile version, which is a little glitchy. So we tend to stick to the desktop version. But Designer to Day teaches the basics of Canva and it gets you really from beginning starting right from learning the core values of graphic design, the four pillars of graphic design, and moving up through actually designing a graphic right alongside me.14:42 [Nicole Thompson] And then it goes into a deep dive where I go into designing letterheads and book covers. And podcast covers and Facebook page covers for that. And, gosh there's really no limit once you get started the infographics. Like you had mentioned pulling the snippets out of your messages, your live videos and such. It really there's there's no limit to what you can do once you can get the basics mastered.15:13 [Yong Pratt] Nicole, thank you for mentioning podcasts and ebooks, because if you are the longtime listener of this podcast, you know that those things are my passions to help people create these amazing assets, all with less work, and faster than you thought possible.15:31 [Yong Pratt] Nicole, in addition to doing things like ebooks and podcast covers, what else can people use to create within Canva.15:41 [Nicole Thompson] A lot of people don't even realize that I'm sure you've seen a social media, you see the different ads for the printed t-shirts with all the fun sayings on them. You can create those graphics in Canva, and actually upload the right to the different print on demand services and create your own little business right out of that.16:01 [Yong Pratt] That is so good. Now I know my girls would really, really love to do that. So parents listening or grandparents listening, this could be a really great thing to do together to show your kids how they can turn their ideas into tangible things and start their own side business which could grow and scale as they need. Summer's right around the corner and I know a lot of kids are out there looking for part-time jobs. And I know my oldest struggles with that because she doesn't turned 16 until the middle of summer. So getting a job when summers halfway over is going to be tough. So if she can create these t-shirts, and do print on demand, that's another way she can start funding her own adventure. So thank you for sharing that.16:50 [Nicole Thompson] Absolutely. And you know, another cool thing to you actually, when you said funding You made me think of it. These are great options for creating fundraisers. It's great for teachers. It's great for family reunions. You can you can use this on so many levels, and you're not paying a designer or buying designs that you have to wait for forever. Graphic design services can be extremely expensive. And sometimes it's not easy to get your design conveyed over to the designer in just one shot, then you're paying for revisions, too.17:25 [Yong Pratt] Oh, so good. And I know in your other business, you do things like this, you create these promotional products. And I think that's a really cool thing to be able to do. And you know, we're set up. When I had my performing arts school, it was getting really costly. The setup fee alone to do one single run of a commemorative t-shirt. I mean, would run upwards of 100 plus dollars just to do the setup. And that's with me designing it. And you know, so definitely this is a way to save some money for sure if you have any kind of waiting for design. Or if you just bring your kiddos on board and let them run with it and just give them that encouragement that they need to start creating something that they're excited about.18:13 [Nicole Thompson] Definitely.18:15 [Yong Pratt] Nicole, I want to make sure that people can connect with you if have questions about Designer in a Day, or maybe your podcast or any of your other businesses. Can you tell us where to find you?18:27 [Nicole Thompson] Yeah, I'm located on all the social media channels, I can typically be found under Nicole Thompson now. That's usually the tagline I go by. On Instagram is Nicole Thompson dot now. But you can find my website at NicoleThompsonNow.com. You can learn all about Designer in a Day and any of my upcoming courses that I'm offering. My podcast is available through there. My podcast is called Build Your Wealth. And that's where I talk about how you can actually learn how to start your own business. And you don't have to be stuck in the nine to five grind.19:02 [Yong Pratt] So, so good. And definitely after this video is done, I'll have you come back in and put those resources down below because I want to make sure people have access to you because it's not often, especially in the online space, we meet people who have the wealth of knowledge that you have, specifically with graphic design, Nicole. I want to thank you for sharing your wisdom with us today. This is an episode you may want to go back and listen to it again. And if you have someone you think could benefit, definitely tell them about this podcast. Let them know all the cool stuff that we can create here, far easier and far faster than you ever thought possible.19:43 [Yong Pratt] Nicole, thank you so much.19:44 [Nicole Thompson] Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. I always love talking to you.19:49 [Yong Pratt] Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. I look forward to bringing you more ideas in the coming weeks about how you can Multiply Your Message by turning a single piece of content, like a video and audio, into so many different forms that you can literally have hundreds of things to share on social, all from one piece of content. We'll catch you next time. Cheers my friends.20:17 [Yong Pratt]Before you head out on the day, I want you to ditch the mom guilt and the stress that often accompanies summertime, especially when it comes to raising your kiddos along with your business. Be sure to grab my 21 work-less, stress-less, and guilt-less strategies over at yongpratt.com/bundle. And that my friends is a wrap on this episode. I look forward to catching up with you on the next one. Cheers. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

We discuss the idea of being a black executive in Corporate America with Frost Bank President Michael Williams.Michael Williams' LinkedInHelp Beat Triple Negative DCIS Breast CancerTRANSCRIPTZach: It was a dream job, the type of assignment that could make or break the career of an ambitious executive with an eye towards the top. "It was my first big promotion," says Bernard J. Tyson, the 57-year-old CEO of Kaiser Permanente, a health care company with nearly $60 billion in annual revenue. The year was 1992, and Tyson, then in his early thirties, had been named administrator of one of Kaiser's newest hospitals in Santa Rosa, California. "Everyone knew this was the hospital to lead," he says. His physician partner, an elderly white gentleman named Dr. Richard Stein, was less excited by the news. "It was one of those "Guess who's coming to dinner?" sort of welcomes," Tyson recalls, and it went downhill from there. The two men were constantly at odds, unable to collaborate, with most conversations ending in angry standoffs. "He would say something, and I would react," says Tyson. "It was the most difficult relationship I have ever had." Failure seemed inevitable. One day, Stein invited Tyson for a walk. "He said, "I have to confess something to you, something that may end our relationship,"" Tyson recalls. "I have never worked with a black man like this." He meant as a peer. Stein, it seems, didn't know what to say, to act, what to expect. Tyson saw it for the opening it was. "It was this moment I realized the majority of the population doesn't have any sort of mental road map for how to relate to and work with someone different from themselves." This is an excerpt from Why Race and Culture Matter in the C-Suite, an article written by Ellen McGirt, for Fortune Magazine, and I believe it highlights the reality many people of color in leadership face every day. Being in spaces where few of us are present is challenging enough, but compounding that with the task of leading teams, as in telling them what to do? How does one succeed in that environment? Further, what does success even look like? This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about what it means to be a leader of people while also being a person of color in Corporate America.Ade: Yeah. So to be honest, I usually get so focused on making sure that I'm good in my career and navigating all the nonsense involved with making sure that my individual contributions are recognized. I usually don't even think about what it means to lead a team full of people who don't look, think, or behave like I do.Zach: I know, right? And to your point, all of those things you just mentioned, they're critical and of course very important and really don't change as you become a leader, but it's interesting because when you look at that article that I read by Ellen McGirt, it highlights Bernard Tyson's experience about white men having to engage him as a equal. So I'm a manager, so I'm not an executive. I'm not a CEO. Nothing fancy like that. I'm the manager, but even as my managerial experience, I can say that beyond leading a team, being in a position where folks who would typically have to--or typically would overlook me actually have to submit to listening to my ideas and my proposals and my direction. It's been a really interesting experience. Ade: Hm. So I hear you, I get your point, but do you perhaps have any examples for us?Zach: For sure. So a few years ago I was working on a project where I was dealing with a manager, and I was telling them what the approach should be for a specific task. I was walking them through the methodology and just the reason and rationale behind why we were gonna make this approach, and as I'm talking to him his face starts just turning bright red. Ade: What? [laughs]Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Like, it's like he ate, like, a habanero pepper or a ghost pepper, and he's trying to hold it in that it's not spicy. Like, he doesn't want anyone to know it's spicy, right? So he's just sitting in there, and his head is shaking, and he's got a little vein bulging out the side of his head. I'm like--Ade: What in the world?Zach: I know! And so I'm talking to him, and I'm just kind of--I'm just having my normal--I'm not talking at him, right? I'm just talking to him. I'm having a normal exchange, and I'm trying to, like, keep up the same casual cadence of my talk while seeing him clearly, clearly be uncomfortable.Ade: Huh. So I'm just curious. Like, was there anyone else in the room who saw this? Who, like, witnessed what was going on and pointing it out?Zach: Yeah. So I was in the room, then my manager was in the room, and he was in the room of course. So they saw this the whole time, and it wasn't like a one-time occurrence, right? So for those folks listening like, "Well, maybe it was just a one-time thing. Maybe he had a hard day." He had multiple hard days, okay? Ade: [laughs] It be like that sometimes.Zach: [laughs] Right? It happened so many times. It happened, like, literally every time we spoke. We spoke once a week for, like, two months, two or three months, and I'm like, "This happens every single time." So now--even when I spoke to my manager about it, I'm like, "Hey, are you noticing this?" Like, "Do you see what's happening here?" You know, she was even reluctant to admit and acknowledge, like, "Oh, I do notice this," and so why she was so uncomfortable talking about the situation and why she was even more reticent to talk to other people about the situation, including, like, our project manager, is for another podcast, but needless to say it was pretty weird.Ade: Okay. Well, I know that you've had experiences as a manager. I personally have not. I am, like we've said multiple times, at the beginning of my career, but wouldn't it be great if we had someone on the show who had about 20 years of experience as an executive within the finance industry, which--Zach: 20 years?Ade: 20. I would argue that the finance industry is one of the most politically-charged spaces, but you didn't hear that from me. So I'm not sure. I feel like it would be good if we had someone who has had to climb multiple ladders, maybe build coalitions of support, maybe who has had active participation as a leader in his community and has acted as a mentor to other people of color.Zach: Hm. You mean like--wait a minute, let me check my notes--you mean like our guest Michael Williams?Ade and Zach: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns]Ade: Never gonna get tired of that. [laughs] All right, so next we're going to get into our interview with our guest Michael Williams. Hope you guys enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as Ade said, we have Michael Williams on the show. Michael, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the pod, man.Michael: Man, thank you so much for inviting me.Zach: Absolutely. So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background?Michael: Sure, sure. I guess--where to start? I'm originally from Dallas, but I moved here and attended Texas Southern University and the University of Houston. Met my wife, who is an only child, and guess what? I was gonna stay a Houstonian. So after school--I had always wanted to be in banking, so I started down that line of pursuing a career in banking, and I have not looked back since. I guess it's been going on 27 years. 26, 27 years. Somewhere in there. I need to do the math. It's in there.Zach: [laughing] That's awesome. So when did you first start leading and managing teams in Corporate America?Michael: So I've been leading a team of corporate bankers for about eight years now, and I actually--for the bank I'm currently employed, I actually am what's called a market president. I run the entire [Southwood?] side for the bank. So I have a team of 13 commercial lenders that work directly for me, and the way we're structured, while I don't do anything in the branches, I have three branches--excuse me, five branches where my people are located, but all of those individuals have a dotted line responsibility under me as well. So while I in effect manage 13 directly, I have actually management I guess authority for somewhere over about 40, 45 people.Zach: Wow, that's amazing. So, you know, this show we're talking about--we're talking about leading while black, and so can you explain a bit for the audience--and shoot, for myself as well--the difference between being a manager and being an executive? And in your career, how do you manage that shift?Michael: Sure, sure. You know, it's--one of the things I continue to do is just aspire to read. I'm an avid reader, and I've read many books on not only how to manage but also--frankly, if someone would have told me management was more about managing the people relative to how they coexist, I would've actually got--instead of getting a degree in finance, I would've gotten a degree in psychology, because really that's where the buck stops. If you can understand that you have influence as a manager, you can easily--and I don't mean just regular influence. I mean you have to understand that everything you do has the ability to set the table up for your future, and those decisions that you make, you need to be calculating because you have the ability to influence people without you even knowing it. And so when I made the switch is when I decided to get an advocate for me at a senior level that allowed that person to see me and my skill set and be able to be my advocate above my pay grade to allow people to say, "Okay, this guy, he not only knows what he's doing, but he's also someone that we can actually incorporate into our senior management team."Zach: That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about when you say advocate and really what you mean when you say advocate, and what were some of the things that they were able to do for you as you were able to transition into that next level of leadership?Michael: Sure. Here's the one thing we all have to--the people who--the vast majority of your audience needs to understand. As a minority--and I'm African-American, so as an African-American minority, the one thing that we don't have is direct access to the highest levels of any corporation, and in many instances, as it stands today, there are not gonna be a lot of people that look like us. And so I remember back when I was at another institution and there was one senior-level African-American gentleman there. That individual decided that it was in his own best interest not to uplift and promote and advocate for younger African-Americans. It was a sad--it was a sad sight to see. It was a very difficult experience to go through personally, but what I learned from that, I took away from that is I will never do that to anyone.Zach: Amen.Michael: Because people sitting back trying to figure out how to gain more ability--excuse me, more control and/or allow their skill set to show that they have the ability to be at the next table, and he would block them 100%.Zach: Wow.Michael: And so my career has been all about making sure that I help those coming behind me who have the requisite skill set and the requisite training. That's first and foremost. So in terms of--in terms of understanding your point, how you make that switch, the biggest thing is you need to--I said find an advocate, but you also, in my mind, have to bring people up behind you that are highly competent and qualified, and now you've got this team of people around you, and if you have that advocate, they see that and they want talent. They want talent absolutely. They just have not been used to having talent, and they certainly--in terms of African-American talent. So they don't necessarily embrace that, but what they do is they lead those people to the side to try to figure out who's on first, what's on second, and how you actually get to tell them you're on first and John is on second and Theodore is on third or whatever the case is is you have to embrace getting someone to get to know you. So in my--in my (life?) career, when I figured that out in my previous institution, I actually had the chairman of the bank--excuse me, the president of the bank here in Texas as my mentor. Today, I've got the president of the bank as my mentor. He is the #2 in the bank. We meet on a quarterly basis. I don't ask him for anything. I ask him for his time, and I want to share his--I want him to share his thoughts, and he wants to hear my thoughts about a various, just a various amount of things. It has nothing to do directly with "How do I get promoted?" "How do I do this?" It's all about just communication, because what I'm trying to do and what I have learned, if you break those walls down and are able to communicate, then that allows that person to see you as someone that they can feel comfortable with, and that really is the biggest barrier to any minority trying to break into the upper levels of executive management if it's not your company because they don't know us as a people, as a rule. All they do is listen to, unfortunately, Fox News and other similar detracting and negative news accounts about us as a people in general, and they make these generalizations without knowing you individually.Zach: We introed the show talking about and sharing a story from Bernard Tyson, who is the CEO of Kaiser Permanente, his experience in having to deal with individuals who had never worked with a black man as a peer. So I'm curious to know how many instances you've had where you've said, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before." Like, has that happened? And if so, would you mind sharing a story or two?Michael: Sure, sure. That has absolutely happened, and you could see it coming 100% down the line. It's amazing. I've had it happen so many times, but I remember a couple of different instances. I'll give you a couple stories. One, as a young analyst, you know, all of us who come through commercial lending, investment banking, all of these corporate-type lending groups, we all have to go through this vetting process and this training process, and it's generally about a year, and we'd learn all this stuff, and then we're out--we're put into these groups, and we're analysts, so we're at the bottom of the rung, right? We're [runts?]. And so I'm in this group, and this--[laughs] calling him a gentleman is good. It's way above where he was in [inaudible], however this gentleman ran the group, and this was--this was in the early '90s. And so this guy--to give you kind of just an overall view of who he is, this guy would smoke in his office. It was illegal to smoke inside of the building, but he would smoke in his office. But he was an old head, he was a successful old head, and senior management didn't bother him. So they let him smoke in his office. Well, okay. So this guy, the manager of group, he was clear that he did not like me, and he made himself clear by several different things that he did. And I'll give you one nice example. So I am in the habit of drinking a gallon of water today, and actually I still do that to this day, and I had my jug that had a lot of water in it, and we were in meetings, and he turns to me in front of everybody and says, "Why do you have all that water?" "Because I like to drink a lot of water." He said, "Well, you know what? That is so sophomoric of you. It's like you're a little kid with a jug." I was like, "Whoa. Okay, this is just water." So we go forward. I take that as a note and I keep moving. Of course I didn't get rid of my water. I just decided to hide it from him all of the time. So there was an instance where when we get into work in the morning we would go get something to eat for breakfast, 'cause typically we'd have to get in early, so we typically would get something to eat for breakfast. My counterpart, the young analyst that was with me, would go--she would check into the office, sit down, turn her computer on, and then go get something to eat. I would go get something to eat, come back, check in and sit down and get something--and start working. I was told that I was habitually late. Now, mind you, I got in before it was the normal working hours all of the time, but because I got breakfast first, came back to my desk, she came to her desk, checked in, meaning face time--and I'm using total air quotes right now--Zach: Right. [laughs]Michael: Meaning face time. It was acceptable to do what she was doing and unacceptable to do what I was doing, and these are very small, minor things, right? Well, one thing everyone needs to take away from anything--if you don't take anything else away from what I'm saying, it is absolutely this - you cannot progress, move up, move forward in any career unless management likes you. Period. Stop. End of story. You could be the most highly-qualified, the brightest--have the brightest mind, have the best work ethic, but if your manager does not like you you will not be able to move up. As a matter of fact, your job is in peril and you don't even know it.Zach: So that was when you were, you know, a new analyst. You were coming in. You were getting hired. You're working for the old head. Was there anybody--was there any instance or experience you had as a leader where you were like, "Wow. Okay, you've clearly never dealt with a person of color before." Michael: Oh, sure. Sure. So we're working on a very sizeable transaction, and my team is managing--I am managing my team, and it's one of my lender's opportunities, and this deal is north of $100 million, so it's gonna be a nice year--Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You said one zero zero million dollars?Michael: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I do corporate lendings, so, I mean, I've worked on several significant-sized transactions for many publicly-traded companies in my past.Zach: Wow.Michael: So at any rate, this is gonna be our year. This deal is basically gonna make our year. So this is my deal. We're working on it, and unbeknownst to me there was some chatter in the background by a counterpart, so another manager, and this person made some questionable comments about me and my ability to lead us through the closing of this deal. I had never even interacted with this guy, so the things that he was saying about me and my inefficiencies. He went on about being efficient, not having ever done a deal of this size before, it actually needs to be done by him and his group. Zach: Wow.Michael: You know? And I sat back and I said, "Wow, interesting." For me, one of the things I'm real keen on is documentation, and so along the way of that particular process I was able to have my documentation in order so that the president, who was the final arbiter, came down to find out what was going on and why we were having some discord, and I simply said, "I'm not sure." And this is another nice little note here. Michelle Obama said it best. "When they go low, we go high." Never get into the mud when people are throwing mud at you. Never. Never. Because you will never win that situation as a minority. You will never win that situation. Even if you win that situation, you've lost. You've just lost because they're already afraid of you, they don't know you, and then now you've got quote-unquote real with somebody, oh, they don't want you around. They don't want you around. That scares the living crap out of them.Zach: But this is my thing. So Michael--like, for those--you know, I've known you, or at least I've known of you for a while, and so I know--but you are a keep it real type of dude, and you're definitely not, like, a back down kind of guy. So let's talk about this documentation and how you stood up for yourself, right? 'Cause I know that's not who you are, so let's keep it real, right? Like, let's--Michael: [laughs] Oh, you are so real with it, and I will admit 100% to have always been an enforcer. I'm just gonna be clear about that. I'm not gonna lie about who I am as a person. Zach: Amen. [laughs]Michael: I grew up--I didn't give you all of the background, but I grew up in the projects of south Dallas. So I grew up fighting. I know how to fight, man. That's not even a question. These hands are real good. These hands are real good. However, what I've--what I've learned over my career is that in order for me to be who I want to be--and now, maybe earlier on I probably would've put hands on him or done something that probably would have not allowed me to move forward as far as I have today, however he caught me at a time in my life where I know better, and I know that I am--my level of intelligence taught me early on, through my mistakes probably, but I wanted to be able to be smarter, more intelligent, and more calculating. I can't say that enough. Here's my phrase that I say all of the time. "I play chess, not checkers." And in life and in Corporate America, it's always chess. If you think you're playing checkers, you've just lost. It's always chess. You've got to think two to three steps ahead and why is that going on and why did that just happen? See, it just didn't happen for a reason. Something happened. And oh, by the way, there are multiple conversations going on without you even knowing about it. You don't even know conversations are happening and they're happening. So it's not about trying to be paranoid or being paranoid. It's all about realizing that they're having these conversations, making these judgments, making some assumptions about you without you even knowing about it. So go back to your question. I have always documented what's going on, and I've always done that to the point of understanding two things. One, it helps me to make sure I'm clear about what's going on, and then two, there's a little saying--although I've never been soothed, there's a little saying that says, "Everything is discoverable," meaning I look at--I look at every situation like there's a lawsuit pending, and as long as I'm looking at it like there's a lawsuit pending or this could promote a lawsuit, I make sure that not only am I keeping my ducks in a row, but I make sure I limit the things that I say that are a part of public record, be it in writing or orally, because I want to limit my exposure while documenting and keeping up with what everybody else is doing.Zach: See, the thing about it is I'm kind of--I'm kind of shook, to be honest with you. Right? [laughs] I'm kind of like, "Okay." Like, I'm listening to you, and honestly I'm hoping that my sound man puts a little bit of House of Cards type music in the background because I'm hearing what you're saying. I don't disagree, right? So this is just good information to have, and I'm a few rungs down the ladder, and so politically understanding how to navigate these spaces--and there are plenty of people who are listening to this show who are aspiring to get there. I'm curious though. We have folks in our spaces, and I think as you know when you look at the history of civil rights and just black liberation, you have to have allies. You have to have folks that don't look like you who are advocating for you. You talked about advocacy at the beginning of our interview. I'm curious to know--you know, there are people who do look like us, but there are people who don't look like us also who listen to this show who are passionate about diversity and inclusion, who are passionate about being supportive and really leading that next generation. What advice do you have, right, for our non-Wakandan brothers and sisters listening in?Michael: As I cross my arms and let my fists down.Zach: And bounce your shoulders a little bit. [laughs]Michael: [laughs] Right, bounce up a little bit. Let me tell you this. The thing that I can say is judge people--I mean, it's funny. MLK said it best. "Judge people for the content of their character, not for the color of their skin." Yes. Are there people out there that have--are trying to run a [gang?] Maybe not as qualified but have snuck into the door, yes, but guess what? That's on both sides. Zach: Hm.Michael: That is not exclusive to minorities, and in particular African-American minorities. That's on both sides of the equation. So judge people for their content, their capacity, and their intellect. That's how you--that's how someone with aspirations of being an advocate can do--get work in whatever their chosen field of human endeavor is, because there--first of all, there's not enough room at the top for everyone. Period. Stop. End of story. Full stop. However, people get passed over for reasons that, in a lot of instances, didn't have to be necessarily. But it happens because that's life, right? You know, life is truly Mike Tyson's big ol' heavy hands. It just keeps coming at you, and you're gonna get your butt knocked down, and you gotta figure out whether or not you can get up and/or have the will and the power to get up because they gonna come right back at you. Those people who get up, those people who have that fighting instinct, who are intelligent, who are hungry, those are the individuals. If you can just look at them for who they are and what they bring to the table, that's a good deal.Zach: Absolutely. I'm curious--I'm curious about this, kind of as a follow-up to really what you just said. You know, are there any--are there any specific experiences or points of advice you've received in your career that have stuck with you and really helped you drive and continue forward to the place where you are today?Michael: One, have that drive, have that inquisitive nature. Always ask the question. You don't ever know what the answer is, nor should you think you would know the answer, but you've got to be willing to ask the question. And once you ask the question? Oh, by the way, learn and don't repeat whatever it is you did before. Okay? So I'm a big one-time guy. Ask me the question or let me ask the question one time or tell me one time, I got it. I've got to move forward. Now, the responsibility thereafter is on me 'cause you told me. So now I want to demonstrate whatever it is. I have the capacity not only to remember what's supposed to happen here but to incorporate it into what I'm doing and move forward. That's one. Two, more important than anything else, never ever lose yourself. Whoever you are, it is you. God brought you into this world. Your experiences up to whatever that point is have made you who you are. Never lose yourself. Learn to navigate within the political world that we live in, especially in Corporate America, and refine your edges. Like you said, you've known me. You guessed that I was a fighter, [laughs] but I've learned to smooth my edges out and to be able to be--to walk in any room and strike up a conversation. Insert name here, insert title here puts his pants on every single day like I do, one leg at a time. So he's no more special than I am in that regard. All he has done is he has made himself or have been able to get the breaks to make himself--put himself in a leadership position. Maybe at the top of the company. Maybe at the next level. It doesn't matter. He's still a person who puts his clothes on--his pants on one leg at a time, therefore I have the ability to interact with this person and find maybe some level of commonness that would allow us to engage in conversation and then, again, continuing to erode any kind of preconceived notions and ideals about who I am simply because I showed up and my skin was a little bit darker than yours. Zach: This is just so helpful, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today. Before we let you go though, do you have any plugs? Any shout outs?Michael: Oh, what could I shout out? I could shout out my wife's foundation. I lost my wife now seven years ago to breast cancer, and I started a foundation for her in an effort to help find a cure for this dreaded, horrible cancer called triple negative DCIS cancer. It is one of the most aggressive forms of breast cancer for--unfortunately for African-American women, and we have an annual walk to celebrate her life, but also to raise funds. We raise funds through corporate giving as well. The website is www.YEF.org, and that stands for Yolanda E. Williams Foundation. YEF.org. You can go on the site. We're preparing for our October walk now. The date has not been set. We will be doing that in a matter of weeks, and you can go on the site and check that out. And so my plug is help me figure out, through raising funds and donating to research, how to get rid of this scourge called triple negative DCIS breast cancer. I don't want anything else.Zach: Amen. So this is what we're gonna do. So first of all, we'll make sure that we have that website in our show notes, and we'll shout that out when we publish this, and then what we'll also do is when you confirm the date, Michael, let us know, and we'll make sure that we shout that out on the podcast as well.Michael: I will do just that.Zach: Okay. Well, first of all, just thank you so much for joining the call. I appreciate you joining the show. I appreciate the insights and just stories that you've been able to share. We wouldn't have had you on the show if we didn't know and trust that you would give us honest, frank, transparent conversation, and I believe we've had that today. We'd like to think you're a friend of the show, and I want to thank you again, and we hope to have you back real soon.Michael: I look forward to it.Zach: All right, Michael.Michael: Count me as a friend.Zach: I will. All right, now. Peace.Michael: All right. Thank you.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. One thing it did remind me of though was the fact that we interviewed a black man, but because the way the system is set up--you know, sexism, racism, and all of the other -isms--I believe that if we had had a black woman on the show talking about this we might've had a slightly different conversation due to the relationship of being a black woman in positions of authority.Zach: You know what, I agree. If you don't mind though, go ahead and expound on that.Ade: Right. So I'm sure you've heard of intersectionality, although for those of our listeners who haven't, it's simply the idea that there are--that your identity form different axes of the way you relate with the world, and so that means your relationships with the world and with certain aspects of the world such as Corporate America as a black man differs from mine as a black woman, and there are different aspects of that. So your sexuality also interacts with that. Your age interacts with that. Your class interacts with that. And so all of that said, I think that if we think about things like the angry black woman trope and how that would reflect in being a leader and how, for example, black women usually aren't allowed to get angry or to express dissatisfaction with anything, otherwise it's "Oh, she's so bitter. She's so angry," as opposed to "No, I'm rightly disappointed in your work product," and all the other ways in which that could affect, you know, the final outcome as a--as a leader. I definitely would like to have that conversation with a black woman in maybe a part two, you know?Zach: You know what? That's a good point, and I agree. Let's make sure that we get a part two on the schedule and get going on that.Ade: Most def. I definitely want to interview, like, an Oprah. Trying to get my auntie on the show. Maybe a Viola Davis. Let's see what we can pop on. How are you feeling?Zach: I feel great about that. You said a Viola Davis?Ade: Or an Oprah. You know, I'm not too picky.Zach: An Ava DuVernay, perhaps?Ade: Ava DuVer--see? [inaudible]Zach: Maybe an Issa Rae?Ade: Stop it. I have a girl crush on her. I have a crush crush on her, but I also have a girl crush on her.Zach: I have an artistic cross on Issa Rae for sure. I was gonna say Issa DuVernay, which would be an amazing combination if both of those, like, fused into one person. My gosh.Ade: Oh, my God. Think of awkward black girl but [shot by?]--[Sound Man throws in a swerve sound effect]Zach: What?Ade: [laughs] Okay, now we're going down different tangents. Okay, anyway. Today we have a listener letter, so as a reminder to everybody at home, we encourage conversation, and so we're looking forward to reading any letters, comments, questions from everyone. So let's get into it. So today we have this letter. We're gonna call this listener Nicole, and let's read Nicole's thoughts. Okay, so it says, "Hi, guys." Hi. "I love your podcast and your insightful advice. This is a career question." All right, let's go. "I usually don't ask anyone I don't personally know about advice, but when I told my circle of friends about this particular situation they were stumped. They didn't know what to say, so here we go. I've been at my job for close to three years, and I've adapted to the many changes that came within my department. A year in, I got switched to a different sector of my department, which meant that I was part of a team of two - the manager and I. My manager has been working with this company for close to ten years and is jaded by all of the politics that comes with working at a large company and in our department. She's much older than me and has been working in this particular industry for decades. My manager and I obviously make for a small department since it's just the two of us, but we're overloaded with work and last-minute projects, which sucks, but it's part of the inner workings of the culture. Anyway, very recently my manager was having a meeting with the director during which the convo switched to me. I was not attending the meeting, but my name came up. The director then asked my manager, "How are you expanding her role?" It seemed as though it was a slew of questions about my potential and what my manager was doing for me in order to make that happen. This didn't seem to go over too well. When I came back from lunch, my manager was venting to me about this meeting. She basically told the director that if she, being my manager, is unclear of her own role and didn't see how she could advance in the company, how could she advance me? And this is just a paraphrasing of the events. And so while she was venting I was simply nodding my head because what else could I say to someone who feels stuck in their job and is managing me? For someone who is much older, I thought she was gonna be a good example, but I've come to realize she isn't. Lately I've been looking for new jobs that pay better because even though my department seems to make millions for the higher-ups, they're stingy when it comes to raises. I've only received one raise, which equated to pennies in my paycheck." Pennies? Oh, Lord. Okay, all right. Anyway. "Should I hit the pavement looking for a new job that pays more or should I try to stick it out and work with my jaded manager? Thanks again, and I hope to get some encouraging advice. Nicole." My goodness. Okay, Nicole. There's so much happening here. I don't--I hate to sound like a typical situation, but this really did rock Zach and I when we gave this a first read-through. And so, Zach, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna go ahead and give my thoughts on it. Or did you want to go first?Zach: The floor is yours.Ade: Okay. So as I see it, there are, like, several different layers of suck here. I'm sorry that--first of all, I'm sorry that you're going through this. It's not a fun or funny situation when you feel as though your career is in the hands of someone who doesn't care about you, but like I said, there are several different layers, and I think it would be best to separate all of those things. So on the one hand, you have a situation where--and at the beginning of Living Corporate, we actually had--I believe it's our very first episode--where we were talking about separating your sponsors for your mentors, knowing the two and leveraging the two. Currently I believe what you need is a sponsor, not a mentor. Your current mentor isn't doing her job. And then the other issue is the matter of your money and getting a new job. So I'm just gonna address them one after the other. So I believe you need to go on the hunt for a sponsor, whether that is within your company, somebody who has a role that you eventually see yourself taking. So obviously this requires first figuring out what you want your trajectory to be at this current moment. That doesn't mean that it can't change, but I believe that everybody needs a five-year plan for themselves. And so in five years, where do you see yourself? In ten years, where do you see yourself? And find people who have optimized their career and go talk to them, whether it's within your company or without. Go on coffee dates. Hit people up on LinkedIn. And I promise you that's not a weird thing. I just came to realize that myself. Like, I'll hit up people on LinkedIn and just kind of ask them to go for coffee or, you know, get their thoughts on certain things. So that's one. The other is that, you know, I understand that you might be feeling hurt, but what your manager is going through is about her and not you, and so although it feels as though she's kind of set herself up as a barrier instead of helping you in your career, I wouldn't take that too personally. Don't let that reflect in your work. If anything, allow that to spur more conversations with, again, those sponsors that you're looking for because they're the ones--within your company, they're the ones who will be putting you on new projects, who will be putting you in places, in rooms, in situations where they feel you have the potential to progress. And outside of your company, those sponsors are the ones who will slide you those job links like, "Hey, I saw this come up. I think you'd be a perfect fit in this situation. What do you think? Go ahead and apply," which brings me to my next point. Any raise that's pennies per paycheck--Zach: Yeah. If that's literal then yeah, that's a pause-worthy statement.Ade: Yeah, that's not it. That's not the lifestyle that I'm hoping and praying for for all my people. I was actually just having this conversation with a group of my friends that closed mouths don't get fed, and it's very typical, particularly of people of color, particularly of women of color, to feel as though we should be grateful for, you know, the pennies as opposed to asking for the thousands, and I don't know if that's gonna, for you, look like--and this is all gonna be personal to you, whether you feel as though you need to be in this company and so you need to figure out how to have the conversation about raises or if you need to step outside and start looking for new jobs. And to that I would say optimize your LinkedIn, get your resume together. If you need to find a professional to look at your resume for you or if, again, those sponsors that you're looking for can take a look at your resume and help you in that regard. But I would definitely say you should start networking. Go to industry events. So whatever your industry is, Meetup is a really good place to find organizations or groups where you can network and meet people and kind of--if you have business cards--give your business cards out, ask people out to coffee at those events. People there are open and willing to mentor you, but you just have to ask. And so those would be my two biggest recommendations for you, and definitely, definitely, definitely keep your head up because this is something that I can relate to personally, and I'm sure Zach has, in some form or fashion, been in a position where he's had to advocate for himself, but you are always your own best advocate, and so this is just a matter of fine-tuning the language and finding the people who are willing to listen to you. Zach, what you got?Zach: Yeah. I mean, one I absolutely agree with your point, right? With all the points that you've made. Ultimately, just to keep it a little bit more succinct, I think it comes down to two things. First of all, you are your best advocate, and then two it's your own career. So it's really one point, right? So you have a couple things here, right? So you have challenges internally where you have your manager who's a bit frustrated and jaded to the language that you're used to, and you now have concerns if they're going to be able to advocate for you. Well, like to what we've been saying, rejecting the premise that anyone else is responsible for advocating for you and that you own your career, it starts with you saying, "Okay, what is it that I want to achieve here?" And then just talking to people, knocking on doors inside your company and being like, "Look, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to do it. Can you help me?" And be comfortable with the people who say no. And they may say no by just flat out saying no. They may say no by just not following up. They may say no by some long-winded answer, but just be comfortable with the people saying no 'cause eventually you'll find someone saying yes. Now, if you can't find the yes internally then it is time to leave, and you already were talking about the fact that you're looking for--you're exploring another opportunity. So your salary--like, your salary is a personal problem. So what do I mean by that? Your salary is a personal problem, meaning you having an issue with your salary, that's an issue between you and you. So you need to figure out a way how you're gonna answer that question. So are you going to get put together a case internally and say, "Hey, look. This is the number I'm looking for because I haven't had a raise in this many years," or "I've only had this one raise," or whatever the case is, or are you going to find another job, right? So plenty of studies show that when it comes to job hunting, you know, you're gonna get a bigger bump transitioning away from a company than you are staying inside. And I'll--there might be people who argue or disagree with me on that. If you do, please send in a letter, send in your comments. And there's more to a job than just your salary, but my point is you have to figure out a way to address that for yourself, right? And, like, I'm not attacking you. I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've definitely been there, where I've got caught up in the illusion of waiting for people to advocate for me, but I realized that people only advocate for you as much as it helps themselves. And so your manager who has her frustrations and things of that nature, that's perfectly human, and she shouldn't be shamed for that. At the same time, that's not your problem. Your problem is how are you gonna make sure that you take care of yourself? So Nicole, like, we're really excited about you sending us another letter, like, letting us know what's going on. We definitely are praying for the best. There's definitely a lot going on for sure, but yeah, advocate for yourself. And we actually have an article dropping on Living Corporate soon about strategic self-advocacy, so keep an eye out for that. If you have any additional questions, just reach back out and we'll make sure to chop it up. Offline.Ade: And definitely thank you for writing us and trusting us with this. So that about wraps it up for our listener letter portion of the segment. As a reminder, we do encourage conversation, so please reach out if you have any questions, comments, or concerns for us.[segment break]Ade: All right, y'all. It is another episode of Favorite Things. So I have a confession actually, guys. Please, please, please keep this on the downlow, as I say this on a podcast. I had my first bite of mac and cheese recently. I know. I know.Zach: Your first bite? Like, you've just now--you've just now tried--Ade: I just--like, I literally just tried mac and cheese, and it was--and I feel like the only real reason that I liked it was because it was a seafood mac and cheese because I've always been really, really averse to cheese, but I've only recently started being okay with it. Like, it doesn't automatically make me nauseous. And so, like, I had my--my friend made--there was a kickback, and my friend made seafood mac and cheese, and I was like, "Seafood? I guess I can give it a shot." I don't know what that voice was. [laughs] But I gave it a shot and I ate it, and it was good. Like, it was really, really good, and I was like, "Hold on, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I've been missing out on deliciousness this whole time?" I was like, "No, this is probably a one-off. It's because of the seafood." And then I went to another event with friends, and my friend made just regular old mac and cheese, and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna give it another shot," and it was astounding.Zach: [laughs] It was astounding?Ade: Astounding. Astounding. Are you kidding me? And so now I am mad that I have wasted all of these years of my life not eating cheese, specifically not eating mac and cheese, especially since I apparently make good mac and cheese, but I've never eaten it because I've always been afraid of what it does to my life afterwards--of what cheese does to my life. And so now I'm just trying to spend all this time, like, making up for lost time.Zach: With cheese.Ade: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Zach: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Okay. First of all, that's very funny. Ade: [laughs]Zach: Because mac and cheese is--first of all, it's just such a common dish from my perspective, right? But at the same time I'm excited for you, and I actually think what we should do is maybe add a fun segment from time to time just called Ade's Cheese, right? Like, where you try, like, a new cheese, right? So, like, maybe next time you try Gouda, and then another time you try feta. Ade: Actually--it's so funny you say that because I bought a smoked Gouda from the Amish [inaudible] market in my apartment, and it's in my fridge right now, okay?Zach: Okay. So okay, great. So look, let's take a note 'cause the next time--the next time we're together we'll bring up your review on Gouda. Ade: Look, listen. I actually already took a slice of it with some pepper jelly, and I want to fight every single one of my friends who did not inform me that cheese was this good.Zach: Right. Now, look, cheese is--cheese is good. Like, it's a seller for a reason.Ade: I want y'all to know that there's no way you love me and left me out of the secret for this long.Zach: Nah, see--actually, I challenge that, right? I challenge that because they could've been holding you back from cheese purely for the health reasons, right? Like, there's no--Ade: Nah, forget all that, because, like, they watch me eat three slices of cake and they actually encourage me. Like, "Here, have my slice of cake." Zach: Okay. Well, then I understand your frustration.Ade: See? Mm-hmm. They're not loyal. Not a single one of 'em. [laughs] My only other thing this week, it's a book called Perfect Peace by Daniel Black. So it's a book about what happens--there are several different themes. Part of it is gender. Part of it is, like, family betrayal. And so, like, the plot is it's this family in the rural south. Mama has six boys already, and she's pregnant with her seventh, and she, the whole time, is thinking, "Oh, this is gonna be my girl." She has a lot of issues surrounding her relationship with her mother, and so she wants to really, like, nurture a girl, a daughter. Turns out that she has a son, and so what she decides to do is raise her son as a daughter, and so she names this boy Perfect. Their family's called Peace. And so Perfect is raised, up until he's 8, as a girl. It's just this really, really gripping story about, like, love and family and what it means to--like, what gender means and what family means and what truth means and all of these other things, and you find yourself just, like, shocked every other page. But yeah, that's my favorite thing, and that was a whole lot, but I hope y'all take a look. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, that's cool. We've got to make sure that we add Perfect Peace to our reading list.Ade: Oh, yeah.Zach: That's right. Make sure you check out our reading list. It's great. So sticking with my record of aggressive book titles, my favorite thing right now has to be this book I'm rereading called This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed by Charles Cobb. It explores the history of nonviolence during the civil rights era and its function. It also breaks down the history and culture of gun ownership for black people in America. It's a really interesting read. Academic while not being too heavy. It's just a really approachable book, and it's also on our reading list, so make sure you check that out.Ade: And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for this show. My name's Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In Episode 9, we talk inclusion riders, the importance of pronouns, and how all of us can better support folks from marginalized communities. If there’s one thing we’re sure of, it’s that we’ve got to stick together—and that means supporting and centering the voices of folks with less opportunity and privilege than us. In this episode, we talk with designer and educator Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen about how listening, and finding community, can help us do just that. They also share how parenting shaped their career path, what it was like to come out at work, and why they see allyship as something we practice, not something we have. Listen up. > If I show up at work as myself, then I’m in a state of being in my greatest power. And I think if you can find a workplace where they want you to be there in your greatest power, then like, yeah, show up. This is how you do it. > > —Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen, designer and educator Here’s what we get into—and of course, there’s a full transcript, too. Show notes If you didn’t catch the Oscars, don’t worry—we start the show by filling you in on our favorite parts. Of note: (Ahem) Janelle Monáe’s pantsuit (photo) Jordan Peele’s win for Get Out and the amazing fan art he posts on Instagram Frances McDormand’s acceptance speech mentioning inclusion riders (hell yeah)… …which we go on to explore: Did you know Justin Bieber requires that his dressing room be filled with carnations? Riders can be wild. More important: Nicole Sanchez writes about taking inclusion riders beyond Hollywood and into fields like tech—and apply them to everything from speaking gigs to job offers. Yep. We also touch on Lara Hogan’s wonderful piece about applying inclusiveness to your hiring process, the Enterprise UX Conference’s journey through inclusive programming, how the Design & Content Conference put together a diverse conference production team, and Women Talk Design’s mission to empower organizers to create more diverse events. Interview: Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen It’s not hyperbole to say it was an honor and a pleasure to talk with UX designer and educator Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. Stevie tells us about the causes that drive them, establishing a career in design, navigating coming out as queer, and what it really means to practice allyship. We talk about: Where Stevie lives in Vancouver, which is the unceded land of the Coast Salish people, particularly the Squamish, the Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. Stevie’s work with Out in Schools, a program that engages students on issues of homophobia, transphobia, and bullying. How having a child while establishing a career—and then making choices about your career and your future—become intertwined in a way you never expected. What it means to realize you’re queer at 27—and what happens next. How we can better support marginalized people by practicing ongoing allyship, and provide safer spaces for those communities. (More on the idea of practicing allyship from Mariame Kaba.) Demystifying and sharing pronouns—and deconstructing the hard-coded way we think about each other. FYOTW We end the show with a little self-love and high-five because, fuck yeah!—we made the New & Noteworthy list on Apple Podcasts! AND it reminds us of all the amazing women-hosted podcasts we listen to and love—including a show you should definitely check out, called Good As Hell hosted by Lizzo. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a diverse, intelligent, and motivated team—and they  want to apply to you. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. _WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _   Transcript Katel LeDû This episode of No, You Go is brought to you by Shopify, the leading global commerce platform for entrepreneurs. And did you know they’re growing? If you want to work with a diverse, passionate team that likes to get shit done, then you should talk to Shopify. The best part: they don’t just want you to apply to them, they want to apply to you. So visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re all about. Jenn Lukas Hey! And welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KL I’m Katel LeDû. Sara Wachter-Boettcher And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. SWB I’m so excited today to talk about one of my favorite topics: inclusion. And, more specifically, we’re going to talk about how people like me, like all of us, can step up and make an impact for underrepresented groups in any field. To help us out, we sat down with a friend of mine, Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen, to learn more about what real inclusion can look like. But, first up, did you all watch the Oscars last week? JL Nope! KL Uh, I did, and I have a few favorite things I kind of want to share because, first of all — you didn’t have to watch it just to see all the pictures that come out of it but Janelle Monáe’s fire red, like military-inspired pant suit was phenomenal. SWB She looked amazing. KL She looked amazing. I also would really like to make a very genuine request to Tiffany Haddish and Maya Rudolph to run for presidents ASAP. SWB Like, co-presidents? KL Like, yeah, absolutely and then, I mean, to top it all off: Jordan Peele won for best screenplay for Get Out, which is just fucking so awesome. I saw that movie and I was so obsessed, I loved it so much that I started following Jordan Peele on Instagram, and he posts a lot of Get Out fan art, it is absolutely worth following. It’s magical. JL I loved that movie. KL It was so good. [2:02] JL Yeah. Um, also, I love this pantsuit. I just Googled it. SWB Get on the internet right now! “Janelle Monáe Oscars pantsuit.” The cape portion of it or whatever that kind of swoopy back is is amazing! So I loved that she really made it her own. Like it was not the kind of look that not just other women were wearing but that, like, anybody was wearing. But it also felt so completely Oscars. Right? Like it felt like she had the whole vibe — fantastic. Ok. So we can keep talking about the Oscars which I also did not actually watch. Uh I like to look at outfit photos later. But, instead, what I was hoping we could talk a little bit about was the story that came out about Frances McDormand and what she said at the end of her speech. She said something about how she wanted to leave the audience with two words and those words were “inclusion rider” So Nicole Sanchez wrote this piece that Jenn actually sent around to all of us, that was about what inclusion rider means in tech or what they could mean in tech. So Nicole is awesome. She is a diversity consultant who runs a company called Vaya Consulting. So she spent a long time looking at diversity and inclusion in the tech industry. And she wrote this piece where she talked about where inclusion riders come from and what they mean. So she credits Dr. Stacy Smith at USC for originally coming up with this concept, and says that it comes from diversifying talent in the media. And the concept is kind of pretty simple, right? It’s like: if you take a rider, which you may have heard about from the music industry— JL So a rider is like what you request if you are going to be performing somewhere. And it could be something like, “I need to have sparkling water, or I need to have a soundcheck of two hours before I’m going to go on.” It could be— KL A fancy rug. JL Or a fancy rug. It could be all these things, you know, maybe you want to make sure that you’re going to have some sort of food. Or in the famous case of Van Halen, you might say, “I demand there be no brown M&Ms.” Which really wasn’t a demand that they needed, they stuck that in their rider to make sure that it was actually being read. So it was one of those things where if they got to a venue and they saw that there was no brown M&Ms, then that means that someone actually read the rider, and the requests that they were going to do, and that they were going to have a good show. KL Paying attention. I mean it matters. JL That’s why Justin Bieber requests that his hotel room is decked out in carnations of a specific color pattern — I’m not making this up! KL I told you! It’s— [4:30] SWB Ok so, so the Bieber rider is not also what we want to talk about tonight. Although we could. Um instead I mean I really like the way that this concept applies to other facets of life. So what Frances was talking about at the Oscars was like, “Ok. If you are an in-demand name in Hollywood, you have an opportunity, in your contracts, to stipulate that the people who are working on the set, and the people who are working with you, um are coming from diverse backgrounds. You have this, you know, you have the opportunity to say that you want to make sure that they’re being paid fairly. You have an opportunity to make some demands that might actually be relatively small in comparison to what you could be getting paid if you’re a big star, but are really, really huge for people who aren’t you.” And so, what Nicole talks about in her article is really applying that other places like, let’s say, a tech conference. Like, if you’re an in-demand speaker, you also have a lot of power. And you can say, “I would love to speak at your event, but I’m going to need you to do some shit for me first.” And getting really specific about what you expect to make sure that that event is inclusive and welcoming to people who are not in demand like you are. KL Yeah, I really like what Nicole wrote because it made it really obvious and seemed really reasonable to have this filter out into a lot of different areas, right? And, like you were saying, you might not be a speaker who’s super in-demand, you might just be starting out. But I think a lot of it is just knowing that it’s very fair and totally appropriate to ask questions about the thing that you’re about to sign up to do. SWB Totally! That reminds me of what Erika Hall talked about when we interviewed her which is like the importance of asking questions and the power of asking questions. I have been thinking about this a lot and I talked about this a little bit actually on Twitter today. Like, one of the things that I’ve started doing is when I’m asked to speak at conferences which, you know, I’ve written some books, and I’ve done a lot of speaking. So I do get asked which is great but I’ve started asking some questions back and I try to make them pretty consistent, across the board, because I find if I ask the same stuff over and over, I’m more comfortable asking and it also feels a little less weird, like it’s not a special standard, it’s just my standard. And so I have a few things that I would say are kind of in my rider, or at least like, they’re in my Go/No Go [chuckling] kind of file, right? Like I won’t go to your event if you don’t answer these questions in a way that I can live with. So it’s things like, you know, for me I always ask like, “Does your event have a code of conduct?” That’s something that’s on Nicole’s list too. But I also ask things like, “What are you doing to ensure that your event has a diverse lineup?” And I ask it that way specifically because I want to hear how people think about it. And if they tell me things like, “Well, we just want to have the best speakers.” Then that’s a big red flag for me because I question, “Well, how do you know you have the best speakers? ‘Best’ according to whom? According to like people you already knew? People your Twitter connections already knew?” You know it’s like it brings up a lot for me. Or at least it’s an opportunity to have a conversation with them. And depending on how that conversation goes, that can tell me a lot about whether I’m interested in coming there, and also it’ll tell me whether I’m interested in investing time and helping them identify speakers they hadn’t heard about, which I’m super happy to do if I feel confident that, you know, if I recommend a speaker who is from a more marginalized group, who’s maybe less experienced than I am, to go to an event, I don’t want that person to be treated poorly. I want to make sure that I’m sending them to an event where somebody’s going to take them seriously. So I feel like by having those conversations, it gives me a chance to feel out how much somebody’s thought about this, how open they are to change, and how willing they are to kind of put in work. Because it is. It takes work, right? Just like we talked about on an earlier episode: it takes work to think about, you know, not centering all your events on drinking, which is a really answer. It takes worth to think about something like onsite childcare but like every single detail you do as an event planner is work and I want them to think about this as an important piece of their job. [8:33] KL Yeah, I mean, you just said that you have an opportunity to do this and I would almost say that established folks, like yourself, I imagine feel like they have a — an obligation to. SWB Absolutely. I don’t know that everybody does. I wish more people who felt like they had some sway — and I, you know, I have like some level of sway. There’s people who — who are like much more in demand and who make a lot of money speaking in our field. And I think that they have a huge responsibility. But I definitely, 100 percent like I — yes, I think of that as an opportunity in the sense of like, I’m glad to have the opportunity. But 100 percent it is an obligation and it is a responsibility. JL Yeah, um I’ve always did a similar thing to you, Sara, where I had a list of a set of questions that I asked every conference opportunity that came up and, you know, like you’re saying, it helps when you have the standard because then you can send an email back that’s like, “This is what I ask all my conferences. No matter what.” And I wrote a post about this awhile back, mine were focused a little bit more about seeing if they — if speakers were paid, and one of the things that I really like to ask is, “What is the cost of the conference? And how many attendees do you expect?” And then afterwards I would say, “What is your speaker fee?” To make sure that then, you know, if a conference will write back, “Oh our conference cost 12 hundred dollars, we’re expecting, you know, a thousand, 2,000, 5,000 people and then the speaker fee is zero, right? KL Then that math is wrong! SWB That math speaks for itself, right? Like it’s like, “Mmm, hmm, how do you like the way those numbers look on the page?” Right. [10:00] JL Not — not too great um so I think it’s really important, you know, for — to realize too and like it’s a mix of educating also, where I think some people never— never thought about that. And I’m not saying that that’s ok. But like it is — then I become, “Well, here are these questions and why I’m asking them because it’s not ok.” SWB Yeah, I mean I wish that everybody would have thought about this by now. I kind of feel like, “C’mon, like you sh— c’mon, you should be thinking about this already.” However, I also accept that that’s not the case and if my goal is to make more people aware, and hope that more people come along with me on this particular journey, then I do feel like part part of it — being able to do something than education is ok and important. I don’t expect everybody to do that, in all circumstances, but I feel like I have enough like sort of comfort and confidence of where I am that I— I can do that. And I think that’s a service to — I’m not so much worried about doing it as a service to the conference organizer, I think that’s like a side benefit. I think about that as a service to the industry, at large, and to the people who need that information to be more widespread. JL Completely. And, you know, I would say that, as a speaker, I did this but as an attendee I’ve asked for things too. And so I feel like people should feel empowered to ask questions as an attendee also, you know, “Will you have a vegan meal?” “Will you have a vegetarian meal?” And that’s something that I used to ask a lot um you know, “Is there a place to nurse?” Or “Is there a place to pump?” And like, “What sort of facilities will be available?” And, as an attendee, someone who’s paying for a conference, you should definitely feel empowered. I mean as a speaker, you should too, that wasn’t taking away from that. But you should definitely feel empowered to write the organizers and make sure that they will have these things available to you also. SWB And I’m also deeply suspect of any event that makes you feel bad for having— like if some event makes you feel bad because you ask for a vegan meal or you ask for a nursing room, like, “I’m sorry. What the actual fuck?” It’s one thing for them not to necessarily be able to meet every need, that’s like a different conversation. But I think if somebody comes to you with a need, and you write them off, or you minimize it, or you pretend like it doesn’t matter. Like, I don’t want to go that event. And I don’t want — I don’t want those people to have my money, or for them to use like my face and my talk to promote their event. KL Right. SWB Um so there were some things though on Nicole’s list that I’d never thought about before that I’m super glad to have heard about now. So for example, I had not thought about — and I feel silly not having thought about it but I never thought about asking about the people who are working the event. So like the laborers, the people who are doing setup and takedown, the people who are doing food, like how are they being paid? She specifically mentioned, you know, what are the labor conditions, are they part of a union? I think there’s probably a whole lot of different questions you might ask depending on your particular interests or your particular kind of like stance but I think asking about the welfare and the support of the people who are not kind of seen as like part of the conference, but are, in fact, like what makes the conference run. Like that’s a huge area that I’m going to be thinking more about. KL And the fact that, you know, she points out, is there — is there a process for intake of these kinds of requests, or like these kinds of questions, right? For like just handling that and — and talking about them. JL So I think the conversation that keeps coming up again and again, from conference organizers saying, “How do I make this happen? How do I diversify my lineups? How do I diversify my speakers?” And I think some people have provided solutions and ideas for this. An article I read recently on Medium was about the Enterprise UX Conference which um they’ve been working on this for four years and every year have slowly iterated on how they’ve been handling things. And I think one of the things that is really great about that is they didn’t just give up after year one. They’re like, “Well, I don’t know how to do it.” Is that they’ve been slowly trying to improve their process and they wrote about this and they were saying that one of the things they did was make sure to have different people, besides three white men, choosing the lineup and being in charge of the themes. And as soon as they started expanding from that, then so did their speaker lineup. SWB You know one of my favorite conferences, Design and Content, actually a conference that Stevie, our guest today, is going to MC this year, they’ve done a really similar thing where they have a selection committee and what they specifically did is they intentionally went out and identified people from a bunch of different backgrounds and then they paid them for their time to be on that committee. And it dramatically changed how they come up with who’s going to be on the roster for the year. And they’ve written about it publically, we’ll put that in the show notes, because I think that they have a process that is — is something that other people can follow. And, you know, part of it came out of their first year. They had really good intentions. They went out and thought about, you know, “You know let’s make sure we have a good, diverse lineup. Let’s ask some people who we’ve never seen before, and some new faces, et cetera.” And an attendee called them out for it at the event and said you know, “This lineup is really white.” And they had to take a step back and be like, “Yeah, it is.” And sit with that. Right? And figure out what to do about that. And I think that that’s hard but I think that’s one of the responsibilities that we have is to be able to hear those kinds of feedback and say, “Ok I’m going to listen to that and then I’m going to figure out how do I change?” And, you know, and that’s one of the reasons I like to ask these questions I ask, right? Is it’s like, do I get defensiveness? Or do I get somebody who can say, “Yeah, you know, we haven’t that diverse of a lineup in past years. You’re right that’s something we should change. I have some ideas but I would love to hear more,” or whatever it is. But that — that openness is really, really important. So, um, that’s one of the things about Enterprise UX that I think has been great as well is that they’re willing to write about it. Like they’re willing to admit it that it wasn’t great year one! Which is sometimes hard to do, right? You have to be able to look at your work and say like, “Here are the ways that this wasn’t where we wanted to be. And then here’s what we did differently.” [16:11] JL Another site that I found interesting was womentalkdesign.com. Their tagline is that they “elevate the best talks about design from women and empowers event organizers with tools, approaches, and information to engage more women speakers.” So this is a neat project because it’s an answer to that question of, “Well, I don’t know where to find these speakers!” And so I really like it because they went out and tackled this specific question that people kept asking. SWB Yeah, I mean Christina Wodtke who is one of the people who created that site, I know that part of this was born of her frustration. Like, she’s been in the industry a long time, working in tech and in UX. And people would frequently ask her, “Well, where do I find all these diverse speakers?” And now she’s like, “I don’t have to answer that question anymore!” Right? Like she’s like, “They’re out there. You just have to do a little bit of work, to get outside of the bubble that you have,” and then she was like, “Ok, let me go and do some of that work.” And um — and so the result is that it’s like, “Oh! You’re looking for more diverse lineups for your event?” That’s certainly not everybody, by any means, but like if you haven’t at least gone through that, like you’ve done not even the bare minimum. JL And I— I don’t think inclusiveness just stops at these conferences, right? I mean one of the things that came out recently was Lara Hogan wrote a great article about how to apply inclusiveness to your hiring process, and how to like tackle that, and one of the things that she had was to make sure that you have a diverse group of the team interviewing these candidates, and I think that’s great thing: making sure that it’s not just one group of people that are interviewing all of your candidates as they come in. SWB And I think it also goes back to some of the same stuff that we talked for like an inclusion rider is that if you are in a position where you feel like you have some choice about the job that you’re taking, which I recognize not everybody is in, but if you’re in that position and you’re thinking about, “I want a place that’s going to give me the most growth opportunity, I want the place that’s going to offer a really good salary package, et cetera, et cetera,” you know, I think that it’s another responsibility to be able to say, “I want to place that is willing to kind of put its money where its mouth is when it comes to being an inclusive environment,” and to ask those same kinds of questions, right? “So what are you doing to increase diversity in your team?” And “What are you doing to support people who come from different backgrounds? And like — what does that look like?” JL I love this question. I love this so much. Um I think it’s like— as a candidate, as an interviewee, you might be like, “Well, how do I phrase this? How do I make sure that this job is going to be a good job with me?” And I think that’s a great way to phrase it. Um when we interview people, one of the questions I always ask is, um I phrase it as: “Diversity and inclusiveness are really important values to us. What are some important values to you?” And, you know, it’s a very leading question but you’d be surprised at how many people go on some sort of tangent that is, like, “Ah. You know? I want to make sure that I have like — snacks.” No one’s ever said snacks! That’s an exaggeration [sure] but it’s certainly something that’s like, you know, not appropriate for the answer or where I was hoping that they would go. SWB We talk a lot about sort of how this relates to people who are working in like tech and design fields, but this is the kind of thing that I think is really transferrable to almost any field, right? Like that it’s not really about the industry that you’re in, it’s like if you were working in an industry that is not necessarily perfectly inclusive, which is like, newsflash: probably all of them. Then you know I think that the— the same kind of stuff applies and you can kind of bring some of these same principles and ideas along. So I’m really stoked that we’re talking about inclusion riders, I don’t think it necessarily has to be like a contract in every circumstance, I think it’s much more about how can you apply that concept to whatever it is that you’re doing in your professional and however you’re interacting with people who hold power in your industry. [19:55] ** **** JL** [Sponsor] No, You Go is proud to be supported by wordpress.com. Whether you’d like to build a personal blog, a business site, or both, creating your website on wordpress.com can help others find you, remember you, and connect with you. That’s why nearly 30 percent of all websites run on WordPress. You don’t need experience setting up a website, WordPress guides you through the process from start to finish. And takes care of the technical side. In fact, we use WordPress at No, You Go. WordPress also has 24 hour customer support, which is great because we all have different schedules. Plans start at just four dollars a month. Start building your website today! Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off your brand new website. Interview: Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen SWB Our guest today is Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. I first met Stevie back in the summer of 2015, after I gave a talk at a conference up in Vancouver, and they approached me afterward wanting to chat about my talk, which was very flattering. But more than anything, what I really remember about that conversation was that this person I just met had come to me with so much kind of kindness and generosity, and our conversation felt so uplifting. And over the next few years, I have paid a lot of attention to what Stevie’s been up to and the things that they’re talking about and interested in. And this year, fast forward, Stevie is now going to be the MC of that very event where I met them: the Design & Content Conference. They’re also a UX designer, a design educator who works with youth and teaches in two different university programs, and somebody who’s just really active in their community in Vancouver, and in design in general. I am so excited to welcome Stevie to the show today. Thank you so much for being here. Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen Thank you for having me. Can I add a moment and just also acknowledge that I am also on unceded Coast Salish territories, and while we may call it Vancouver, it is the unceded land of the Coast Salish people, particularly the Squamish, the Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. SWB Thank you for doing that. I think that actually sets the tone for this conversation really well because I think one of the things I would love to talk with you more about is sort of the way that you look at your role as a designer in your community and sort of the impact that you have on community and on the way that people from different backgrounds within your community are represented. So can you tell us a little more— how did you get to this place where you start a conversation and you say, “Actually, can we remind ourselves of the indigenous people whose land this is and this land has always been?” Like, what was your process of getting to a place that you were comfortable doing things like that? STAN Honestly, every time I have these moments where I’m like, “Oh! I need to say something, I should say something, this is the right thing to say,” and it is still really, really hard because I think always makes me uncomfortable not knowing how the other person may respond on the other end. Yeah, these issues are political and they are uncomfortable for people to talk about, hear, or acknowledge. I don’t know if you know what’s happening right now in Canada, but Tina and Coulton were murdered and people don’t talk about it because people don’t care. And so we need to bring these things up even though it’s really hard because people are dying. So that’s my response I guess. When I began to recognize that when we don’t talk about things, people die. And the more personal we make it, the more people who we spend time with who are directly affected by these things, by systemic oppression, the more we recognize the power that we have as individuals when we are in a place where we have to acknowledge these things. SWB That’s a pretty difficult topic and I think that that’s something pretty challenging to our audience — I mean, you mentioned that it’s hard for people to talk about, I think it’s hard to talk about on a podcast like this where we — where we really do want to talk about, you know, finding some joy even when things are difficult. And I don’t that that means erasing talking about the things that are difficult, by any means, and so, with that in mind, what is your day to day work? [25:23] STAN Hmm my day-to-day work probably doesn’t look too different from many people. I’m a parent; I have a five, almost six-year-old, son. And I have shared custody with his father. And so on days when he’s with me, I actually wake up at like 4:30 in the morning, and I wake up, and I shower, and I go to make a matcha latte for myself every morning. And I come out and I answer emails, I try my best to catch up on like Slack, on text messages, on WhatsApp, on Viber, on Signal, on my work email versus my personal email, and um what else is there? Messenger. So that’s kind of normal, I imagine, I think we all have these mornings of having to try to catch up with all that stuff. And then I get him ready for school, take him to school, and it’s a privilege that allows me to do that, and I come back and I work. And so some days that’s with Out in Schools, where I’m talking about queer and gender issues with young people in high schools. And sometimes in elementary schools. And other days it’s going to meet my own clients at their offices. And then other days, it’s staying home um and doing like UX work. So for me that’s everywhere from leading a workshop, like I did this morning, where I’m presenting to clients whatever our ideas are, whatever our proposals are, and then other days I’m heading off to go teach. And then I come home and I try to fit in some yoga somewhere. And pick up my son and then do things with him in the evening, feed him, put him to bed. And do some more work and then go to bed. That’s my day. SWB I think a lot of our listeners can relate to sort of the juggle and trying to figure out what the right mix of things is in a day and how to have some time for yourself amid everything else. Can you tell us more — like what was your journey into becoming a designer? How did you end up in this sort of life that you’ve crafted for yourself now? STAN I lucked into it, I think. I remember I was in high school and I had really no real idea about what I wanted to do and somebody came into the school who was an alumni and did a presentation. And she worked in — she worked in marketing for an ad agency. And I just thought her job sounded really cool. I liked that she got to like talk to people and I liked hearing about how she got to like come up with ideas to do things and like sell things to people, which I feel so much like cringey shame about now. But at the time it sounded really interesting. Um so I went into the university and studied communications but partway through my program, I did a certificate in innovative leadership from SFU, Simon Fraser University, and it was an eight-month program where the first four months we did workshops, and the last four months we got to do like a practical project with a local company. And the company that I happened to work with was a leadership development company. And at the end of this project, which was, funnily enough, all about looking at how people within the organization viewed their leadership skills, as opposed to people who are like several levels away from them. How did those people view their executives leadership skills. At the end of the project, the person I’d been working with at this company said, “Oh I noticed you like — maybe had some graphic skills. You know we really need a graphic designer.” And I’m like, “Well, I’m like — I’m taking my first course in design right now.” “Well, that’s great! That’s more knowledge than we have!” And so they hired me and I started off just like making PowerPoints and doing a lot of things in print, working within business development and supporting people people in sales. Packing suitcases. I did a lot of packing suitcases. But along the way I learned a lot about like leadership and leadership models and um when we talk about adult learning, that realm is something that I gained a lot of experience with over six years. And so at the same time I was still in school, had abandoned communications, and had — was fully in design now, and then I went away on an amazing field school and came back and was pregnant! So I took a year off. And I will say this is like — this is an important part of my professional journey, this is an important part of my growth and journey as a person, because having my son changed everything. I’ve always been someone that was really into research. So the moment I got into something, or the moment I found out about something new, I’d like totally geek out and go read every book, watch every movie and documentary, and talk to every person I could find about the thing. Uh I get really excited about new hobbies and interests. So I got really excited about being pregnant, and about birth, and about breastfeeding, um and about being a parent. And when that happened, I began to see the ways in which I had to make really, really clear decisions. So the same way in marketing or in design, you have to have a reason as to why you’re doing something for a certain desired outcome, I knew that I wanted my son, I wanted my child to be happy, and I knew that I wanted him to be really kind, and I knew that I wanted him to be really safe. Like I wanted him to live. Right? Like that’s all I really wanted and I knew that I had to make decisions to support that. And so that was like — we raised him vegan for the first like year because we felt it was important for him to have the choice, right? It was important for him to know that you don’t have to eat animals but you can and that’s your choice. But do you know what you are doing if you are going to that? So he still doesn’t really eat animals. But that’s still something that applied to me in my life. I began to think about like what am I doing? Is this who I want to be? Is this how — what powers do I have as an individual to like make all those things happen for him? And it made me really political. Like all of a sudden, things that I have always had values about like really mattered because I’d made an investment in the future by having him, and I needed to invest in the future. And then I got laid off from my job. The job that I’d had for six years. I was a marketing assistant or a project assistant but I was never actually a designer. And I was feeling a lot of doubt about this and I have a mentor at school, Russell Taylor, who is kind of the father to like so many of us in this design program. And I reached out to him and I said, “Well, I got laid off. I really love design but I have no design skills. I didn’t finish my degree.” And he goes, “Well come back and teach for me. Um like you know this stuff. You’ve taken this course and I like — I feel confident that you’re going to do a good job in this.” And so he brought me back and had me teaching his second year course with him. And then at the same time he was developing a conference that was in its second year. And at this conference, he brought in agencies and different companies to like do talks but also to do interviews. And while I was teaching, I also applied for an interview at this conference, and I came out of the conference and I was offered — I was offered some jobs! My first job in which I would get to call myself a designer. And so, Sara, this is where it kind of comes back around to you because this job was the first job that I gone in to do the interview and really felt like, “This is who I am. And like I don’t know these things. This is what I’m working on. Um please see some potential in me!” Like, “Please take some faith in me because I think I can do this.” Uh and I felt really good about some of the things that I felt were just really natural and inherent to me. And they absolutely said, “Yeah!” Like, “We think you can do this. We think that you can kick it out of the park. I feel confident putting you in front of like our — any client, right from the getgo.” And this was my manager, Robin Ashmore, and so it was the first job where I’m like, “Oh. Ok. Like I can admit that I don’t really know this but I can learn this and I can develop in these areas where I think I’m good.” And part of how he supported me was allowing me to go to that conference DCC, Design & Content, which is how I met Sara! And at this time though I was beginning to get really bitter, um I was beginning to look around and see that we, as designers, have all this potential to build things that really make a difference in the world and really help people, and yet we’re like focused on how to get snacks. Or we’re building technology that is actually enabling violence against marginalized people. So I — even now I tell people that I feel shame around calling myself a designer because as a whole, this industry is causing so much more problems than it is helping and I think so many of us have this power and opportunity to actually do something about it, and we’re afraid to. And we don’t. For whatever reasons. And some people have more ability to do something about it then others and I really do mean this in like ability, privilege, some people have more privilege in order to make change happen. Um but I went to this conference, I went to DCC, I met Sara. I’m like, “Oh!! There’s designers who really do see the same things I see! Who really are concerned about the same things that I’m concerned about.” And there are people who, like you, Sara, who want better things out of tech, who want designers to do better things — the tech industry to do better things. And so I began to look for places in which I could try to do better things and I could try to learn on how to be a better designer. This is where I’m at right now. Like I’m still working on that. I’m still trying to influence and like bring kindness into the world, bring safety into places where I think people need someone to invite them in or to support them while they’re there. So yeah that’s where I am right now. [35:25] SWB Well, I am so proud and kind of tearing up a little bit to think that I played even just like a tiny, tiny, little role in your story— STAN Big role! SWB —oh gosh! Ok, ok I wouldn’t — I wouldn’t oversell that. I really think like, you know, your work and your what you are bringing to your community is— is big and different than anything that I do. So I definitely don’t want to oversell what I might’ve played a role in. Something that I’m really interested in hearing more about that you mentioned a little bit ago is the work that you’re doing with Out in Schools. So can you tell us a little bit about that organization and how you got involved with them? STAN Yeah, oh. So I guess one of the key parts of the story that was a huge pivot point in my life, that happened shortly before I met Sara, is that I realized that I was queer. And I like to say that I “realized” because it was something that kind of — it’s always been a part of me. It’s who I am. I am a queer person. But I didn’t have the words for it and I didn’t know that’s what other people were calling it and when this happened, I was 27, I had already had my son, Noah, and I had a cis male partner. And realizing I was queer, finding queer community, making queer friends, really like embracing and exploring what that could mean for me was like so amazing! It sounds so cheesy, but I really did feel like I was born again. And I was also really disappointed and sometimes embarrassed to admit that I was 27. And I think about how I grew up with very conservative parents. I think they’re a little bit more liberal now than they used to be but they are conservative, they’re still very Catholic. I grew up in a very Catholic cishet family. And I was also really protected, care for, loved, I still am. And for them, that meant sheltering me from just sexuality in general. And so that included putting me in an all-girls private school um great school, I mean great academics but it was also an all girls Catholic private school. So we didn’t get sex-ed. And when I was 27, I realized that I was queer and I was so happy about it because I think like being queer is so liberating, and so fun. I really wanted to make it happen — or contribute to a culture where queerness is normalized. And so I found the Queer Film Festival, I met some people there, including some facilitators from Out in Schools, and they became my friends. Jen Sung, in particular, reached out and was like, “Hey! You kind of said that you would love to do this. Were you serious?” And I said, “Yes!” And she goes, “Well! We’re hiring! You should submit an application!” And I submitted an application and became an Out in Schools facilitator. So we’re led by Gavin Somers and Brandon Yan, and we go around to high schools, and elementary schools, and we talk to young people about queer and trans issues using media, like using film. So we watch movies with them, we watch music videos with them and we lead discussions. And it’s interesting in the ways in which like that also ties back into the skill I have around facilitation because that’s part of what I do in my job as a designer. So I get to practice, like, being in front of people, and presenting, and engaging with audiences. Like, in everything that I do, in many places in my life. [39:24] SWB That’s such a cool additional piece to your professional profile that I didn’t know about until — you know just now, right? Like you being involved with Out in Schools seems like, in some ways, you know, really different from doing the design work, but it feels very natural, the way that you talk about it all together. STAN Thanks. It feels really natural to me. SWB I’m also curious, you know, you mentioned coming out as queer at 27 and sort of realizing to yourself that that was even the case and I know that in that same time period you also started going by different pronouns, and coming out as non-binary, and I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about what that was like? And especially what was that like, you know, in the context of work where that seems like maybe it could be a challenging thing to do. STAN Well, what had happened was that you did this amazing talk and you were really vulnerable and real and talked about how important it was to like create spaces and technologies that allowed and encouraged people to be who they are uh rather than try to force them to fit in any particular box. And I came up to you and I was in tears, I remember this, because I had this name tag and the name tag actually had my name, like “Stevie” was on it, but Stevie’s like — is not my given name. And I was expressing to you, like, “Oh my god, how amazing is it that, yeah the Eventbrite form for the conference was like, shout out to Steve Fisher and Shannon Fisher for recognizing the significance and importance of this. But the conference signup form allowed me to input my name. Like it didn’t ask me for a piece of ID to like prove that that was my name.” And I’m like tearing up now, thinking about it, but yeah that’s like it was the first piece of paper that I wore around my neck that allowed me to identify myself and identify myself to other people as Stevie. And it was in a professional context. And then all the speakers, everybody that I met that weekend like called me Stevie. Like everybody that knows me from that time onwards, calls me Stevie and so it felt so good. I came back and I didn’t immediately do it but from then on, anytime I introduced myself to somebody I was like, “No, Stevie.” Like I’d been doing this previously, as a nickname to personal friends but not professional contacts. And being at Design and Content, meeting people who would use my name eventually I think, a couple weeks later, gave me the confidence to actually casually, jokingly at work say, “Actually! Like all my friends call me Stevie.” And so my co-workers were like, “Do you want us to call you Stevie?” And I’m like, “Yes!!!” And I had another amazing colleague, like Jason Landry, he reached out to me privately on Slack and said, “Hey, I know that you’re going by Stevie.” And like, “Awesome! Stevie’s a great name. I just wanted to check in. Like have your pronouns changed? Like what pronouns would you like me to refer to you as?” So at the time I said, “Oh um like no, like, she/her is fine.” And she/her is great. I just don’t use she/her anymore. Like they/them is super comfortable to me. Like it makes me feel really good. And so I use they/them and eventually like it was people in my team making me feel like welcome. And doing that work of like welcoming me as opposed to me having to step out and be vulnerable is what allowed me to come to work and tell people, “My name is Stevie.” And now like over time I’ve built enough confidence to include it in my email signature. If I meet someone new, I always say, “Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. My pronouns: they/them/theirs.” So I try to assert myself and I know that from what we tell young people in schools, every time that I do that, I can help somebody else feel more comfortable sharing their pronouns. And as a practice of allyship, that’s the best thing folks can do is share their pronouns. SWB I love that story so much and I’m so thankful that you had a colleague who reached out to you sort of made it ok for you to say like, “Yeah, actually I prefer to go by different pronouns.” Was that a scary conversation to start to have? Like the first few times you were doing that in these professional settings? STAN Mm hmm yeah. And I mean, let’s be honest, my team, most of the people on my team are great. They use they/them pronouns. Some people still make mistakes. I think it’s interesting the way in which every time someone new comes onto the team, if I don’t already know them, I have to find a time or an opportunity to, hopefully, quickly get in there and let them know that my pronouns are they/them/theirs before they hear maybe the wrong pronoun from somebody else, or make an assumption, and then I eventually have to awkwardly correct them. But yeah it was initially really hard because I didn’t even understand the — like once I understood how it felt empowering to me, it was hard because there was always a lot of explaining. People like need explanations or they look at me, you know, like, “Wait. What does that mean?” And they like — I think — I think people look at me and they’re like, “Wait. What does that mean for your body parts?” SWB Which um is — has nothing to do with it at all. STAN Exactly. But— SWB It is not an appropriate question for work — like pretty much ever. STAN Well it’s just like — I don’t think it needs to be even verbally said sometimes, it’s just like people stop and look like the same way. Some folks know — like particularly feminine-presenting folks knows what it looks when someone looks at you and looks you up and down [mm hmm]. I think like queer and trans and non-binary folks, we know what it looks like when you look at us and you’re like, “Mmm,” like, “What’s under your clothes and how do you have sex?” [44:55] SWB Which I, you know, I understand that it’s kind of uncomfortable for people when they are first presented with pronoun and gender stuff that they’ve not encountered before and that they don’t understand, and um and then even still, you know, I mean I think I, for example, like I have several friends who would identify as non-binary or who identify as, let’s say they’re trans, and I have tried to unlearn some of that like default gender binary language and it’s hard. And I screw it up. And I screw it up oftentimes when I have, you know it’s like something gets coded in my brain early on, whether it’s an assumption, or whether it’s something where, you know, I have a friend who I met when they presented as male and they, at some point, came out as trans. And they’re a woman. And I sometimes still have like that little mental like kind of hiccup right? That like is about the history that I have with them, and sort of having to shift my thinking, I mean that just is what it is but that that’s up to me, right? Like it’s my job. It’s my job to figure that out. It’s not their job to figure that out. And if I feel weird or if I have to like go through an extra like you know mental circuit in order to make sense of it and make sure that I’m doing it correctly, like, that’s work that is on me to do. And that the more I do that kind of work, the easier it becomes. And that’s kind of like the way that I’ve tried to deal with it but I think it’s — I think it’s something that seeing people like you who are willing to be vulnerable and to say, “Hey, this is who I am.” And to know that you might get reactions that aren’t positive and that aren’t good. I think that that’s — it’s such a gift, I think, to the rest of us, in terms of opening our minds and helping us get to a more inclusive place. KL I also just want to say that— that you said something, you said the words, “practice of allyship,” and I wrote that — I just wrote that down because I like that so much and I feel like if we can just share that as much as possible, that is — that is such a gem of a thing to think about. STAN Let me — let me credit that Mariame Kaba who is @prisonculture on Twitter because I heard Mariame — actually I may be pronouncing this wrong: M-A-R-I-A-M-E. I heard her speak on a webinar, which is run by Talila Lewis, TL Lewis, who does not use any pronouns, and this is what they — the whole discussion was about, was about the practice of allyship. That no one gets to say like, “I am an ally! So I am done!” Like it’s not about what this identity, it’s about how do you continue to practice allyship. KL Exactly. It’s like — it really, truly is a practice. It’s like all things that you, you know, I’m — at least I know for myself that I want to get good at, you know, between yoga, and just being a, you know, a better friend and publisher and coworker. It’s— it really, truly takes practice. And you have to be — you have to be aware of that. STAN Yeah, and it takes like that, like what you talked about earlier, Sara, that constant, the constant practice and I think when we’re in community with other people, we’re all practicing our allyship to marginalized people, and marginalized communities, there has to be a practice of forgiveness as well. Like grace, for us as individuals, and the practice of forgiveness for each other. Like I wouldn’t know anything I know if somebody didn’t tell me I was wrong if somebody didn’t like — wouldn’t forgive me, and like didn’t cast me out of their life because I made a mistake, but it also has to come from a place of like being willing to sit around and like shut up sometimes. SWB So as somebody who has gotten more comfortable bringing your whole identity to work, and who has kind of gone through some of those scary parts, what would you tell someone or what advice would you have for somebody who is thinking about some of the same things, about being able to be more of their authentic selves in their professional environments and being able to kind of fuse maybe some of the stuff that they’ve kept personal or private with the way that they present professionally. [49:40] STAN Hmm. What would I tell someone? I think the first thing I would want to make sure is that person feels safe. And I know this word like “safe” or “safety” gets thrown around a lot. But, quite honestly, what are your risks and dangers? And what violence may you face if you fully — if you bring yourself fully? And this is me speaking from a position of privilege of where I am able to bring myself to work, where every part of me is at least, at the very least, recognized and acknowledged. And then I would say: surround yourself in community and with allies to support you through it. I don’t think I could do it if I didn’t think — like I don’t think I could show up, assert my name, assert my pronouns, talk about my politics, if I thought that I would be attacked in any way, or punished in any way. And so that — that’s sort of required first. Make sure you’re safe and make sure you have support. And then, like show up and be real. This — it’s, again, cheesy sayings but I was tweeting, I tweeted about it this morning. But this idea of like nobody — I don’t know anything other than my own experience and I have so little that I know, but all I know is like myself. And so if I show up at work as myself, then I’m in a state of being in my greatest power. And I think if you can find a workplace where they want you to be there in your greatest power, then like, yeah, show up. This is how you do it. KL I love that. STAN Does that help? SWB That’s so great. That is so great. Yeah. So, very last question then is you mentioned safety and the importance for people who are going to do something vulnerable, whether that’s you know coming out at work or anything else, to feel like they have some sense of safety. So what can listeners do who feel like they can — they have some power in their workplace or in the organizations they’re part of, to help foster that safety for people. Like what are some of the ways that we can ensure that more of the people that we work with feel safe around us? STAN Well I think for people of marginalized identities, yeah, showing up so that you can be that example, so that you can be another person who like makes someone feel safe because you see someone who’s similar to you. That’s one way. But if you aren’t, like if you are someone who is in a position of privilege and power, gosh, like: not punishing people. How do you make — how do you make that space? Inviting it? Educating yourself? Like and making it — like I’ll bring it back to the beginning: like making it personal. I think if you genuinely care about the people in your company, then these are things worth learning about and these are things worth like not just acknowledging and recognizing and forgiving, for some reason, like if you think it’s wrong and you “forgive” them for this thing. Like get past that point where you can love them for that. [55:08] STAN I think that’s it. FYOTW SWB I have a pretty important Fuck Yeah tonight. It’s the Fuck Yeah to the um real champagne that Katel brought over today. KL Uh we have to take this moment to say a little “Fuck yeah” to ourselves because we made it onto the New and Noteworthy in Apple Podcasts and I’m really excited because we are a little, indie podcast that we started because we just really wanted to talk to each other and see where this went and, I’m psyched. SWB We started talking a while back about how much we were really hoping we could get onto the New and Noteworthy list because it’s a really good way to get new audience, and have people kind of be aware of you, plus it just feels good to know that what you’re doing is working. And, when I started looking at the other shows that were on there, almost all of them were supported by a bigger brand. It was like a podcast coming from Gimlet, or a podcast coming from Slate, or some other organization that was backing them and funding them, and so it’s a kind of a big deal to have a podcast like this that’s completely independently run be able to make it onto that list. Or at least, it feels like a big deal to me. JL Fuck yeah! It’s a big deal! KL Feels like a huge deal. SWB And I was also thinking about how much of a big deal to see a podcast ran by women, and more podcast run by women coming out because I feel like for a long time, there were just so few. I remember seeing a stat the other day that was like something like 70 percent of podcasts are run by men. And I don’t know if that’s true. Like it wasn’t the kind of stat that I felt like I could easily back up. But it is something that’s talked about quite a lot in the industry is just how male-dominated podcasting is. And how almost all of the biggest name podcasts are run by men. And, you know, there’s some really great podcasts run by men. It’s not like there aren’t but like man, there are so many interesting women doing interesting things. And I would love to hear from more of them. And, like, that’s what we’re doing. JL Yeah! I mean, also, fuck yeah women’s history month! And with that in mind I just started looking — I went a little Google-wild again and I just started looking at all these like, you know there’s all these lists, it’s the internet; of course there’s lists. But I just started looking into more like women-run podcasts and I just started going through them all — and I just — I have so many queued up right now. I’m so excited to listen to them all because I feel like, again, the more we support each other as women podcasters, the more that we get our — like we share our message! And we keep listening to each other and raising each other up! So it’s been so fun to try to listen to some of these other podcasts also. Katel, I know that you have been like super into one recently. KL Yeah, I gotta be honest: I’m actively looking for more podcasts that are just basically more diverse voices. And one that I really like lately is by a music artist that I just really love, her name is Lizzo. And if you don’t know her, just Spotify that shit immediately because it will make you feel good and it’s totally worth it. But she has a new podcast, that I think launched like right around the same time ours did, which is so cool, and it’s on Spotify. She describes it as, “A safe space for the baddest women in music.” She’s an alternative rapper, she sits down with iconic queens and rising stars and basically sets the record straight on making a name in a very male-dominated world in music. So I just love that. I love her. I’m so happy that I get to hear her not only sing but also talk and talk with other women. JL What’s the podcast called? KL Sorry, I should’ve said that! It’s called Good As Hell which is also just a really fucking good name. And yeah it’s really inspiring and you should take a listen. JL Maybe we could do a crossover episode: No, You Good. KL That would be amazing! SWB I love this whole concept because it feels like a sister podcast to No, You Go. Because I think that that’s really like — similar stuff we’re trying to do. Obviously we don’t have as many connections in music but if any, like, musical stars want to be on our show, that’s great. JL Kesha! [Ahem.] SWB Kesha is definitely like Jen’s number one dream guest. She’s literally on a spreadsheet right now. But I think that — that’s a lot of the same stuff that we’re trying to talk about, right? It’s like who are the most badass women and non-binary people we have encountered in our professional lives who are doing great things and who have something to say to the world? And how can we talk about ways to elevate their voices and make spaces that are more inclusive? So fuck yeah to women-run podcasts. JL Fuck yeah! KL Fuck yeah on New and Noteworthy. [59:59] JL Well, that’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go! The show about being ambitious— and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen for being our guest today. If you like what you’ve been hearing on our podcast, we would love it if you subscribed and rated us on Apple Podcast where we’ve been New and Noteworthy! And fuck yeah! New and Noteworthy! Deserved! Your support really helps us spread the word. We’ll be back next week with another great guest.